# UK Warned: CIA Will Access All Government Data



## celtic_crippler (Feb 12, 2013)

Article: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33884.htm



> U.S. intelligence agencies will soon be able to trawl through all British
> government documents stored online including ministerial files, local authority
> records and public sector data thanks to an unchallenged amendment to a spy law in Washington.
> 
> The FISA amendments now give the CIA and NSA the right to access all this data not just in Britain or Europe, but anywhere in the world [that uses G-cloud to store data]. U.S. citizens are excused this intrusion by the Fourth Amendment, but everybody else is included.



We have a few UK and other residents from arund the world here. How do you feel about that? Is your media reporting on this?


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## Tez3 (Feb 12, 2013)

Of course the Uk and European media covered it. It was reported several weeks ago. 
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/10/europe_sees_grave_risks_from_us_spy_law/

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...authorities-can-access-information-8473693.ht

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...upon-routinely-by-us-authorities-8471819.html


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## Sukerkin (Feb 12, 2013)

My feeling is that such over-arching intrusion is yet one more plank in the growth of subtle totalitarianism amidst the supposed democracies of the West.  It's been foreseen for some time by futurists and authors and it is now, with insidious caution, coming to pass.

Trust the Computer.  The Computer is your friend.

Just because the game is called Paranoia doesn't make the basic idea wrong.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 12, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> My feeling is that such over-arching intrusion is yet one more plank in the growth of subtle totalitarianism amidst the supposed democracies of the West.  It's been foreseen for some time by futurists and authors and it is now, with insidious caution, coming to pass.
> 
> Trust the Computer.  The Computer is your friend.
> 
> Just because the game is called Paranoia doesn't make the basic idea wrong.



I can't imagine your government, much less the people, being okay with this.


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## Tez3 (Feb 12, 2013)

MPs have called for the Government to stop using cloud. However considering we have all been spying on each other for years, it's nothing much new, rather just a new method. There will be counter measures, then counter counter measures and the Game goes on.


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## arnisador (Feb 12, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> However considering we have all been spying on each other for years, it's nothing much new, rather just a new method. There will be counter measures, then counter counter measures and the Game goes on.



That's my take too--not that it doesn't suck, as *Sukerkin *indicates.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 12, 2013)

So... just sit back and take it? Is that the messege I'm getting here? 

At least Americans have some legal recourse in the 4th... but are you all just saying "roll over"?


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## granfire (Feb 13, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> So... just sit back and take it? Is that the messege I'm getting here?
> 
> At least Americans have some legal recourse in the 4th... but are you all just saying "roll over"?



I am reading it more that they already know the CIA isn't playing nice with their friends.
And in turn they do some peeking of their own....


and as if you have a recourse if you don't know they are reading your stuff.....


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## CanuckMA (Feb 13, 2013)

That may spur the growth of clud services that are not based in the US and do not operate in the US.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 13, 2013)

granfire said:


> I am reading it more that they already know the CIA isn't playing nice with their friends.
> And in turn they do some peeking of their own....
> 
> 
> and as if you have a recourse if you don't know they are reading your stuff.....



They may be reading it, but the 4th protects us from having it used against us. That's the difference. 



CanuckMA said:


> That may spur the growth of clud services that are not based in the US and do not operate in the US.



We own it. That's the problem.


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## granfire (Feb 13, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> They may be reading it, but the 4th protects us from having it used against us. That's the difference.



:lfao:
yes, so I hear....I am sure in the patriot act there is a loophole somewhere...it's not like the libraries are required to supply a list of books you checked out and are not allowed to tell you....and that predates cloud issues....

and I am sure when you find out your cloud is shadowed, you will get some lame excuse...

nah, I am cynical....CIA is operating outside the law....'we spy on everybody, butuh, yeah, citizens have nothing to fear' 
I got a bridge I want t sell you....and some beach front in Idaho...


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 13, 2013)

That's my point. 

But I find this level of apathy kind of disturbing.


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## CanuckMA (Feb 13, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> They may be reading it, but the 4th protects us from having it used against us. That's the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> We own it. That's the problem.


Own what?


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2013)

You lot have been spying on us and everyone else for years, and we've been spying on you since at least before your revolution. It's how things have been done since well forever really, it's not a case of lying down and rolling over, it's seen more as a challenge. Did you think the CIA had invented spying? Well no, that was most likely Francis Walsingham. It's a Game, your spymasters know it, our spymasters know it. it's not James Bond, it's much more fun. It does make me laugh though when your authorities actually let people know they can spy on them, it sort of gives the game away don't cha think?


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## granfire (Feb 13, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> That's my point.
> 
> But I find this level of apathy kind of disturbing.



Lord, give me the courage to change the things I can
The strength to accept the things I can't change 
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Apathy?
oh, come on.....
I know my tinfoil hat is on tight, but not that tight. 
As Tez put it 'The Game' has been going on since the inception of human society and will continue as long as there is more than one human in the world....

Just one of the facts of life.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2013)

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I cannot accept, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today because they hacked me off."

Mind, spying on your own people is a bit low......


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 13, 2013)

granfire said:


> Lord, give me the courage to change the things I can
> The strength to accept the things I can't change
> and the wisdom to know the difference.
> 
> ...



AHA! 

The "Game"... 

The Founders recognized this and attempted to establish a society that would break the cycle. It appears to be failing... but, is that really a good excuse to roll over and play dead? Is it not our own apathy that has allowed this to come about in the first place? 

"No man, who is not inflamed by vain-glory into enthusiasm, can flatter himself that his single, unsupported, desultory, unsystematic endeavours are of power to defeat the subtle designs and united Cabals of ambitious citizens. When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." ~ Edmund Burke

"Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing." ~John Stuart Mill

Apathy is the true enemy.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

The thing to remember is that this is primarily a martial arts board with a bit of politics etc on the side. I'm not going to get hysterical here just because of this, it's not apathy...it's called time and place.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> The thing to remember is that this is primarily a martial arts board with a bit of politics etc on the side. I'm not going to get hysterical here just because of this, it's not apathy...it's called time and place.



nah, it's a thing women learn early on.

You can't exert yourself tilting windmills....


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

Being over emotional and ranting on the internet din't help anything, acting as an agent provocateur on here and calling people pathetic just to get a reaction is what I believe Americans call lame. 
I'd rather lobby my MP who lives over the road from me and also happens to be the Foreign Secretary (and a decent Judoka) it's more productive. Ive read all the rants raves and name calling that the gun 'control' issue raises in America, we aren't like that here, getting hysterical isn't really our style. don't however mistake our politiceness for weakness lol. 
I'm sure there is a load of government material on the cloud that the CIA are welcome to read, every department has all those boring reports, stats and stuff they archive but you can't seriously think that anything of any security value is going to be that easy to get hold of? Really, you think Europeans are so stupid that the sensitive stuff won't be somewhere a lot harder to get hold of. While it raises eyebrows that America is being so public about having the capability to spy on us (so jejune), it's no surprise nor will it be that easy.
Of course if the CIA is spying on you and I expect they are, they aren't exactly going to abide by any laws now are they, that's a different matter and one you should sort before they come and get you.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 14, 2013)

Apathy is as apathy does.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

Really? Just because we don't dance to your tune doesn't make us apathetic but as the teenagers say...whatever.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> Apathy is as apathy does.



the Bonds of this world peeking at each other's undies...meh, whatever. 
Chances are it affects me as much as a sack of rice tipping over in China.

The subject they should spy on they don't anyhow, like wtf is going on with gas prices...2 cents down 20 cents up....and it ain't China's fault.

things I try to get upset about are things that will affect us in the long run, at the base level

And if you thought world politics ever gave a crap about the base, you are delusional. Or that the bottom line for the base is ever affected...on a grand scale...unless of course your house sits attop an oilfield...


here is something that should get your dander up, and you can actually influence it:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...n-carriages-from-urban-roads.premium-1.501656

radical animal rights activists chisseling away on our options.

naturally they found a nag for the picture, but when people live in poverty, horses are too. (I am sure ther is a political angle there as well, but th list of supporters for the ban is a who-is-who of PETA, HSUS and the rest of the militant vegans...yes, they are after that steak on your grill, and they will get you, Pretty, and your little doggy, too!)

so the CIA playing cloak and dagger with the MI5 or 6, and the Mossad, KGB heirs, the Germans and French...pft....it's no accident they call the place 'the cloud'


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

The way that horses are treated in the Middle East is appalling, tbh the Israelis would be correct to ban those horses working. These aren't the tourist carriages of America I'm afraid. It's also not true that the people who use these horses are living in poverty, care of animals is something they simply don't bother with. It isn't radical organisations that are pushing to ban this it's ordinary people and for good reason. Just because PETA has petitioned the Israeli government doesn't make them wrong in this case. 
http://www.pegasus-israel.org/72414/About


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 14, 2013)

I think this goes a little bit beyond the standard "Cloak & Dagger" affair, but apparently others do not. 

Just remember, regardless of what belief system you subscribe to; you reap what you sow. Be it through action or inaction. 

I suppose if you guys are okay with it over there it's no skin off my hump. LOL


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> The way that horses are treated in the Middle East is appalling, tbh the Israelis would be correct to ban those horses working. These aren't the tourist carriages of America I'm afraid. It's also not true that the people who use these horses are living in poverty, care of animals is something they simply don't bother with. It isn't radical organisations that are pushing to ban this it's ordinary people and for good reason. Just because PETA has petitioned the Israeli government doesn't make them wrong in this case.
> http://www.pegasus-israel.org/72414/About



no, radicals shall never have a say so in the legal process.

yes, the treatment sucks. much of the reason behind it is the people do not know better. 

but educating people is expensive and time consuming. 
And PETA does not want that anyhow. 
I am all for better treatment for the animals, but not when the people do not live any better.
it's not for the welfare of the animals.
Once they are banned from working, what value will they have to the owners?
Where will they go? 
Or rather how will they be killed.

There are groups of dedicated horse people on the ground working for the improvement of the lives of the animals, by teaching the people who own them how it is done and how it impacts their own lives in a positive manner. 

you never put the fox in charge of the hen house!


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> I think this goes a little bit beyond the standard "Cloak & Dagger" affair, but apparently others do not.
> 
> Just remember, regardless of what belief system you subscribe to; you reap what you sow. Be it through action or inaction.
> 
> I suppose if you guys are okay with it over there it's no skin off my hump. LOL



Spy on PETA and HSUS, because they are really out to get you.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> I think this goes a little bit beyond the standard "Cloak & Dagger" affair, but apparently others do not.
> 
> Just remember, regardless of what belief system you subscribe to; you reap what you sow. Be it through action or inaction.
> 
> I suppose if you guys are okay with it over there it's no skin off my hump. LOL



Well, what did you expect on here? A rant and name calling as per all the other threads on here that go on about political subjects? Us huffing and puffing about how it's not good enough etc? This is t'internet, it's of little importance in the scale of things, Why should we get angry on here just because you think we should? Are you waiting for us to breakdown and cry or something? We aren't here for you to yank our chains for your enjoyment. You don't like the posts, it makes no difference to us.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

granfire said:


> no, radicals shall never have a say so in the legal process.
> 
> yes, the treatment sucks. much of the reason behind it is the people do not know better.
> 
> ...



It was Israelis not radical outsiders who campaigned against the use of horses in this manner. Israelis don't take kindly to outsiders telling them waht to do so while PETA may have contacted the Israelis, the decision wouldn't have been made with their imput. that horses will be looked after at sanctuaries like Pegasus as they are now, education and welfare have been ongoing for many years. The Arabs use horses and donkeys because they are cheap and easily to obtain, it's not in their interest to actually treat them well. My mother was very concerned when she was there for these animals.

http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/2012/1/23/a-donkey-and-horse-safe-haven-in-israel.html

http://www.zoenature.org/2012/06/donkey-rescuer-at-queens-garden-party/

http://dawn.com/2011/02/22/israelis-and-palestinians-rescue-needy-donkeys/

http://m.clevelandjewishnews.com/mobile/news/local/article_644ab8d0-9f63-11e1-9cef-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.thebrooke.org/our-work/?a=46976

these are the people the Israeli govenment will have listend to.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> It was Israelis not radical outsiders who campaigned against the use of horses in this manner. Israelis don't take kindly to outsiders telling them waht to do so while PETA may have contacted the Israelis, the decision wouldn't have been made with their imput. that horses will be looked after at sanctuaries like Pegasus as they are now, education and welfare have been ongoing for many years. The Arabs use horses and donkeys because they are cheap and easily to obtain, it's not in their interest to actually treat them well. My mother was very concerned when she was there for these animals.
> 
> http://www.jns.org/latest-articles/2012/1/23/a-donkey-and-horse-safe-haven-in-israel.html
> 
> ...



THE CHAI advisory board is full with NYC city folk and PETA personal...
not to mention 'Vegetarians' and Vegans' 
Opportunistic parasites they are they just achieved a victory. 

it's not good for the people, nor the animals, but PETA does not care.


it' not like 'government' thinks it all the way through either. California just put a law into effect that makes animal control not only enforcer but also judge. really messed up piece of work when you look at it with critical eyes.

http://www.gambiahorseanddonkey.org.uk/

this is how you deal with working horses in a certain cultural and socio-economic context. 

There is a group like that working in Egypt. 

PETA does not want human-animal interaction. That's the small print on their banners.
they run one (yes ONE) shelter in the US, with an adoption rate of 1%. One in one hundred. 89% of animals are euthanized, the otehr 10% of anmials are transferred to other shelters, non of them a no-kill facility. So in all likelihood those 10% were killed, too. 
Animal welfare is not their agenda.


Maybe I should learn how to spy in the cloud....I am sure they are conspiring there as well.




> *CHAI's Advisory Board*
> CHAI's Israel-American Advisory Board includes:
> *Eva Berriman*, BVSc (Veterinarian, author, teacher and developer of horse welfare courses)
> *Holly Cheever*, DVM (Vice President of the  New York State Humane Association, Vice President of the Association of  Veterinarians for Animal Rights, humane educator and award-winning  animal-cruelty investigator)
> ...


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

Chai's advisory board are made up of well respected Jewish notables who aren't going to be swayed by radical posturing. To have had Isaac Bashevis Singer on your board is beyond astounding it's truly remarkable and deeply impressive. Chai works on what you would call Biblical terms so while you may have people from PETA on the board it doesn't mean to say they have more of a say than anyone else, to sit on a board, any board with Jews is a lively event and when you have Rabbis as well, I can only say that it would be very interesting.

I think you have to accept that what Israelis see and live with everyday means that their decision to ban these carts is a wise one, I know my mother would have been pleased.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 14, 2013)

granfire said:


> Spy on PETA and HSUS, because they are really out to get you.



No, they're out to get your pets.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> No, they're out to get your pets.




Well sometimes you do wonder why people are allowed to keep animals.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/31/animalwelfare.animalbehaviour


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> Well sometimes you do wonder why people are allowed to keep animals.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jul/31/animalwelfare.animalbehaviour



I will read the article later...

however raising the bar to unatainable levels is not helping.

I have been beating my head against the wall for a while now. The writing is on the wall.
Yes, some people should not have a pet rock, but a growing number of people are facing problems with zealous enforcers now that clearly overstep their bounds.

And said groups do try to sneak legislation through the essemblies that make it impossible to keep animals. 
Hopping in as tore right quick and leaving your dog tied to the bike rack? Not a good idea.
not having shelter up for your horses 24/7? Oh, you are going in front of the judge. Innocuous wording gets the good people all the time.

Bad people? Well, they didn't care to begin with....Oh, ad HSUS has been shooting down animal protection legislation, just because they didn't think it up.

PETA bucking for limitless police powers to confiscate animals....

Trust me...they are a louse you don't want in your pelt, ever. 

The law will get the horses off the streets alright...turned lose in the desert or simply killed - by any means possible. Might not be pretty, but those nags just became a liability for people who couldn't afford to buy a truck to begin with....bad news.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> Chai's advisory board are made up of well respected Jewish notables who aren't going to be swayed by radical posturing. To have had Isaac Bashevis Singer on your board is beyond astounding it's truly remarkable and deeply impressive. Chai works on what you would call Biblical terms so while you may have people from PETA on the board it doesn't mean to say they have more of a say than anyone else, to sit on a board, any board with Jews is a lively event and when you have Rabbis as well, I can only say that it would be very interesting.
> 
> I think you have to accept that what Israelis see and live with everyday means that their decision to ban these carts is a wise one, I know my mother would have been pleased.



Probably the only thing we will ever disagree on.

But PETA connections are always tainted and never respectable. 

Somebody made the connection of the recent influx of horse meat into the mainstream food chain (Tesco burgers etc, latest was their lasagna ready meals with up to 100% horse...) with the recent legislation that took horses off the roads of Rumania....

I take your word for it that the Rabbis are respectable.
Color my cynical, but respectable does not mean a thing to me....it is a great cover for doing evil. 
And for playing with PETA, the gentlemen need some ritual cleansing....you sleep with dogs you get fleas.

But you forgot another little smidgeon in the sordid mess: vegetarians....
yes, the lifestyle in itself is peaceful and benign....in context with the prevailing Animal Rights activists they become a prosetelyzing bunch of zealots....

I know I am starting to sound like billie and his democrat rants.....but this is too important!

(BTW, PETA has been linked to groups like ALF and ELF, by now classified pretty much as terrorists...or very kindred in spirit)


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 14, 2013)

:fart:


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

The horse meat 'scandal' is being looked at into as a criminal case not connected to the Romanian traffic laws. Europe as you know as always eaten horse meat, the Romania says the horse meat which left them was labelled as such and was legal. Somewhere along the line the labels were 'lost' and the horse meat was sold as beef. Beef is five times the price of horse meat.
PETA and the other organisations don't work much outside the US and when they do they aren't a radical organistion, perhaps we Brits aren't the radicalising type. Nothing they do here is either illegal or actually unsound. We've had a few low key raids on laboratories that use animals for testing by persons unknown but frankly thats fine with most people, animals shouldn't be used for testing. Most companies here won't test on animals as they know people won't buy their products. Veal isn't sold here anymore as people won't buy it because of the way it's produced, it wasn't banned people just didn't buy it. Framers are now trying to sell 'rose' veal which is calf meat from animals raised naturally.
We've never had any problems with vegetarians, it's not considered particularly odd in a nation of odd people, the Linda McCartney range of food sells well here and that's as much as we ever hear about veggies. perhaps Americans really do do things bigger when it comes to everything lol even animal welfare protestors! :uhyeah:


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> The horse meat 'scandal' is being looked at into as a criminal case not connected to the Romanian traffic laws. Europe as you know as always eaten horse meat, the Romania says the horse meat which left them was labelled as such and was legal. Somewhere along the line the labels were 'lost' and the horse meat was sold as beef. Beef is five times the price of horse meat.
> PETA and the other organisations don't work much outside the US and when they do they aren't a radical organistion, perhaps we Brits aren't the radicalising type. Nothing they do here is either illegal or actually unsound. We've had a few low key raids on laboratories that use animals for testing by persons unknown but frankly thats fine with most people, animals shouldn't be used for testing. Most companies here won't test on animals as they know people won't buy their products. Veal isn't sold here anymore as people won't buy it because of the way it's produced, it wasn't banned people just didn't buy it. Framers are now trying to sell 'rose' veal which is calf meat from animals raised naturally.
> We've never had any problems with vegetarians, it's not considered particularly odd in a nation of odd people, the Linda McCartney range of food sells well here and that's as much as we ever hear about veggies. perhaps Americans really do do things bigger when it comes to everything lol even animal welfare protestors! :uhyeah:



Tez, be warned.
The PETA folk do work all over the world. Them popping up in the Israel law should tell you they have their fingers in every pie. They are everywhere, already.
I don't really care what people eat. It's their private matter.
PETA however, and their brothers in suits, the HSUS - Humane Society of the United States - are all about veganism and that nobody is to use animals - not even as companions. They said it in the past, they jetset around the world to 'consult' 
The radical actions are always 'just the actions a o a few' blah blah blah, not connected...yada yada...PETA has been linked with ALF and LF terrorists, paying their legal fees...I am guessing Europeans do not allow much of their radical speech as we do in the states. 

The Rumanian laws had nothing to do with the criminal activities putting horse as beef in the meals, true, but a lot of horses got suddenly unemployed and useless, probably making horse pretty cheap, thus tempting to substitute with.

But that is pretty much the point. No animals to worry about.
To these groups it is preferable for the animals to be dead that 'enslaved' 
These guys are NOT animal welfare, they are animal _rights _all the way. The are working more or less quietly behind the scenes to stop animal use, not abuse.
They do work against legislation if they did not have a hand in it, too.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

We have a Romanian au pair who trains with us, she says they have always eaten horse and their traffic laws haven't made any difference. Horses are cheap in Romania and not looked after well as they are easy to get hold of. perhaps being dead is better than being so mistreated you would wish you were dead, life shouldn't be at any cost. It's still a very backwards country, they way they treat handicapped and disabled children is very worrying, they have a long way to get to the 21st century. 
PETA here is quite low key, it campaigns on things we do actually worry about such as the badger cull here and bear baiting in Turkey, we don't have veggies or vegans rampaging around either, they don't break any laws nor do they have a hand in making any new ones. I'm not sticking up for them but in Europe they are low key and legal, they have a low profile. If they were allied to terrorists or looked to being that way, we would know. In the UK it has 5000 supporters. 
I've read some of the pros and against on the internet they are all American and sound, both sides, like the arguments in the gun and abortions issues, strident, hysterical and name calling. makes my head ache! 
I'm sure you are right about the American PETA but until they do similiar things here we can't say much against them as there_ is _little to say against them!


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 15, 2013)

:s459:-sigh...


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> We have a Romanian au pair who trains with us, she says they have always eaten horse and their traffic laws haven't made any difference. Horses are cheap in Romania and not looked after well as they are easy to get hold of. perhaps being dead is better than being so mistreated you would wish you were dead, life shouldn't be at any cost. It's still a very backwards country, they way they treat handicapped and disabled children is very worrying, they have a long way to get to the 21st century.
> PETA here is quite low key, it campaigns on things we do actually worry about such as the badger cull here and bear baiting in Turkey, we don't have veggies or vegans rampaging around either, they don't break any laws nor do they have a hand in making any new ones. I'm not sticking up for them but in Europe they are low key and legal, they have a low profile. If they were allied to terrorists or looked to being that way, we would know. In the UK it has 5000 supporters.
> I've read some of the pros and against on the internet they are all American and sound, both sides, like the arguments in the gun and abortions issues, strident, hysterical and name calling. makes my head ache!
> I'm sure you are right about the American PETA but until they do similiar things here we can't say much against them as there_ is _little to say against them!



They ARE in Europe. they HAVE their hands in the pot.
At least when they throw paint at you you can kick their behind...this way they are sneaky and dangerous, plus they have money. 
Yes, the treatment of animals in many parts of the world leaves a lot to be desired. But bans don't help the animals, it leaves them quiet dead.

The problem is not so much that the particular animal is dead. Yes, there are worse things than death.

But it will before long cut into our way of life, how we own our animals. 

Much of the same players that weighed in with their expertise have been working for years against the handful of people who run the carriages in NYC.
There are no welfare concerns, just animal rights propaganda and outright lies. The package it nicely...like the poor kittens and puppies....

They are working tireless on putting innocuous wording into law: a horse must have access to water 24/7....sounds good, until you saddle up and go on a trail ride...you are now de facto in violation of the law. Bummer.
Seriously, just because these people do not run about screaming - which seems to be a wonderful diversion for the actual work they do, lobbying - does not mean they are not dangerous.


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> :s459:-sigh...



sorry, Love.

you said apathy was bad...see, I don't have apathy....I am quiet passionate. 

sooooo, I am on topic. 

the CIA has been spying, the others have been spying....some people spy for both sides....some sell their soul for money.

there are some things the public needs to know, but for most parts the public doesn't get it anyhow, and if they don't know what they don't understand, it keeps them from going into panic.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 15, 2013)

granfire said:


> sorry, Love.
> 
> you said apathy was bad...see, I don't have apathy....I am quiet passionate.
> 
> ...



That was a long, round-about way of saying "ignorance is bliss." LOL


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

celtic_crippler said:


> That was a long, round-about way of saying "ignorance is bliss." LOL



yes

about things you can't influence anyhow.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 15, 2013)

granfire said:


> yes
> 
> about things you can't influence anyhow.



Who told you that? Your government? LOL


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

perhaps PETA however has some things right, things you don't have in America.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-for-donkey-cruelty-says-animal-lover.html


http://www.thepetitionsite.com/192/stop-animal-cruelty-in-romania/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jan/01/spain.animalwelfare
http://www.faace.co.uk/blood_fiestas.html


http://www.piaberrend.org/bear-baiting-pakistan-s-shame/

I think the CIA will enjoy going through all the minutiae of our governments and the EU governments workings, it might kept them from poking their noses where they aren't wanted.


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> perhaps PETA however has some things right, things you don't have in America.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ish-for-donkey-cruelty-says-animal-lover.html
> 
> ...





It will put them to sleep I bet.

gawd, PETA is working overtime...yep, that's the material that's the fertile ground for them to craft their bills on.
Precisely that material. 

yeah, we got puppy mills, raisng, or rather churning out digs by the hundreds and thousands....keeping the breed stock in small cages in filth, pulling the pups from their mothers and siblings as young as 5 weeks....

we have dog fighting, horse tripping, the odd pervert who is into bestiality, we have people who just leave the animals to starve or abandon them to fend for themselves. 

In geramny there is a law on the book, drafted to outlaw cropping of ears and docking of tails...the way it reads it prohibits the destruction of living tissue...sounds good, right?
but testicles fall under that as well...so if you actually applied the law, you would violate it by gelding your colts, and heaven knows, most colts make better geldings. It also would put branding on the bad side of the law. I am afraid that until smart phones can reliably pick up micro chips, there is no real alternative for a brand yet.

Nobody likes animal abuse.
But you never invite the wolves in to guard the sheep. 
You have to do it the hard way. A person, one animal at a time. 
Like the Gambia horse and donkey trust. They teach the owners of the animals how to treat the animals, how to give them basis health care.
They also teach the villagers trades that benefit the animals, like the black smiths learn how to make better bits that won't cut the tongues out of the donkey's mouth. It benefits the humans, too. They teach the children that the animal has to be fed before it can work. 
but they don't go in, wag their fingers at the people, scald them and take their animals and livelyhoods. 

PETA uses the instance you lined (last didn't work btw) to craft bills that mess everybody up.
Like I said. nobody wants the poor donkey kicked around on the market square. but when PETA and their ilk are done with the bill, you can't have a donkey anymore. 

10-15 years ago there were people interested in legislating dog breeders. numbers of kennels, size of kennels, number of dogs, etc...fingers pointed at th disgusting puppy mills...
Too bad that most breeders don't even have a single kennel, their dogs live in their homes with them. 
They have many dogs because they have multiple generations of their program.....the proposal would have effectively shut them down. 
'Dog breeder' has by now become a bad name.
breeder of anything is now a stigma! PETA and HSUS are lobbying for horse breeders to be required to take back any and all they breed....(oh and them getting the 'foal tax' lol...yeah, animal welfare isn't their goal $$$ and lots of it is though) Impractical over the possible lifespan of a horse of 30 years....
As it is, many good breeders are calling it quits, age and economy doing them in. Not many come through the ranks, again, breeder is a bad word...
In a few years, should the economy allow for expensive hobbies again, we will find that there will be a lot less horses to go around, making the hobby prohibitively expensive. But that is just my prognosis. But when a lot less normal people own horses, it will be a lot easier to attack the ones that do have the money, use class envy to further the agenda....

(Am I sounding like billie yet? Seeing a Democrat behind every corner?)


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

They aren't campaigning here for any of that though, with only 5000 supporters who probably aren't that active they would have trouble doing much harm. Like most things here what CC would call apathy is us doing things the way they should be, without fuss and efficiently. We don't make great fusses about things, we don't like the strident, we quietly go about eliminating things that really annoy us, it's why we've lasted so long and haven't been invaded since 1066! We just wear people down with our politeness, impassiveness and sense of humour  lol.


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> They aren't campaigning here for any of that though, with only 5000 supporters who probably aren't that active they would have trouble doing much harm. Like most things here what CC would call apathy is us doing things the way they should be, without fuss and efficiently. We don't make great fusses about things, we don't like the strident, we quietly go about eliminating things that really annoy us, it's why we've lasted so long and haven't been invaded since 1066! We just wear people down with our politeness, impassiveness and sense of humour  lol.



you underestimate their sneakiness.

Fox hunting comes to mind....the fox still dies at the end...they are there, they are active. You better watch them.


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

granfire said:


> you underestimate their sneakiness.
> 
> Fox hunting comes to mind....the fox still dies at the end...they are there, they are active. You better watch them.



You haven't met many British farmers and country people lol! they go back generations, generations and generations, they've seen off the Romans, the Vikings, enveloped the Normans, seen off the French, Spanish and Germans, a few animal rights people won't phase them. Nutters only survive in a place that is willing to put up with them.


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## granfire (Feb 15, 2013)

Tez3 said:


> You haven't met many British farmers and country people lol! they go back generations, generations and generations, they've seen off the Romans, the Vikings, enveloped the Normans, seen off the French, Spanish and Germans, a few animal rights people won't phase them. Nutters only survive in a place that is willing to put up with them.



and they still passed hunting bans...the fox still dies, the hounds become unemployed and unemployable....

But I grant you that, it's city folk passing laws because the country folk can't be left to their own devices...
(oh darn...overlapping people there, too....)

Ok, I am making myself paranoid now. I shall stop reading now.

brb, need to run and get some coconut rum to drown out the little voices. 

No, really, sadly, country people have jobs, and things to do, other than to conspire how to rob other people of their right to be with animals....


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## Tez3 (Feb 15, 2013)

We are still hunting, the hounds haven't been put down and nor the horses and the foxes eat children's fingers in the cities.
http://www.thebedalehunt.co.uk/index.htm  (going back to another thread this is on land that once belonged to Richard the Third's maternal grandparents) and a damn good day it is too!


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