# Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first



## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.

Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:

"Breaking objects with the hands and feet has probably existed in the eastern martial arts for hundreds of years. In Japan it certainly predated the introduction of karate in the 1920s. William Bankier, the strongman _"Apollo",_ wrote about the edge of the hand blow in his 1905 book _"Jiu-Jitsu. What It Really Is",_ adding _that "Some of the Japs who made a study of this sort of thing have been known to actually break very large stones with their bare hand. To such an extent had these men developed the heel or side part of the hand that it almost became as hard as stone."_ During his military service in France in World War 1, Bob Hoffman, the founder of _"Strength and Health"_ magazine saw an example of breaking in Paris, of all places: _"In France during the war, Bob Hoffman told me that he saw a Japanese sidewalk performer actually break slabs of marble with chop blows of his hand. The side of his hand was about half an inch thicker than a normal hand"._ In 1940 the _"Japanese American Courier"_ reported that _"Marking its 34th anniversary the Tacoma (judo) dojo will hold its annual tournament Sunday afternoon at the Buddhist Church auditorium . . . Over 40 black belts are listed for action. An additional feature on the programme will be Masato Tamura's 'rock breaking' demonstration via the ancient Japanese art of "kiai jutsu". He will also oppose a quintet of picked black belts"._ Tamura was a well known judoka who had got his third dan during Jigoro Kano's visit to America in 1938. In none of these accounts, incidentally, is there any mention of karate."

Mas Oyama in America, by Graham Noble

400 years ago, there were many history books all recording the same event of Korean Hand Breaking a large stone as big as a Soban table. https://i.imgur.com/d3vM6SR.png

In 1692's Korea, Ikmyung Yang was also recorded to break stone by hand strike using Yongryuk. It also mentioned that Breaking/Tameshiwari is a set of games with similar nature. https://i.imgur.com/yJFsJWN.png

Yong means stacking speed & power. Korean strike techniques also showed shoulder-push for hand strike. Mas Oyama introduced Breaking/Tameshiwari to the modern curriculum of Karate; Mas Oyama added this shoulder-push & Yong speed to Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking. It's not from boxing cause Mas Oyama was a Korean who was familiar with Korean techniques. Also, Kiaijutsu (Korean Kihapsul/Charyuk is pronounced like that in Japanese) was popular in Japan at the era.

In 1934's Korea, a reputable newspaper also recorded Korean Kihapsul breaking Yeonwa (soft shingles, roof tiles) with fist. It also mentioned Taoist Yoga (chejo).

https://i.imgur.com/UqPLaLW.png

To summarize, Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari. They got it from Korean Kiaijutsu & Korean Mas Oyama (Choi). They also adopted shoulder-push & Yong speed for hard frontal strike from Korea.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

I think it's utterly illogical to state that one particular region (or worse, one art) has the unequivocal right to claim that it invented breaking stuff as a show of strength or even a competitive activity.

Apes break stuff to intimidate potential opponents - it's very safe to assume they didn't get it from karate either...


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

This reeks of propaganda. You want to talk about having legitimate and reputable sources, you need to demonstrate critical thinking skills in assessing them. Confirmation bias is not your friend. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

"I was first" has the right to claim a culture. Also, in any case, Japan didn't have Breaking/Tameshiwari. China & Korea had it. Also, Japan was exposed to Breaking through Korea, not through China. If you have an issue, go debate Graham Noble. China & Korea had Breaking/Tameshiwari. Japan didn't have it. Japan learned it from Korea.

I don't see any bias. I see reputable sources & references. Breaking existed before Japan. Korea had it before Japan. Propaganda distorts logic & data. I'm not distorting anything. The conclusions arise naturally from the given data.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> "I was first" has the right to claim a culture.



You have zero evidence that nobody ever thought to break something as a test of strength before those in Korea.

Therefore, you have zero claim to "I was first".


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> "I was first" has the right to claim a culture. Also, in any case, Japan didn't have Breaking/Tameshiwari. China & Korea had it. Also, Japan was exposed to Breaking through Korea, not through China. If you have an issue, go debate Graham Noble. China & Korea had Breaking/Tameshiwari. Japan didn't have it. Japan learned it from Korea.
> 
> I don't see any bias. I see reputable sources & references. Breaking existed before Japan. Korea had it before Japan. Propaganda distorts logic & data. I'm not distorting anything. The conclusions arise naturally from the given data.


You are seeking out data to confirm what you wish to be true, which you clearly demonstrated in the Taekwondo thread when you said Taekwondo was tainted for you because it was not purely Korean. That sir is confirmation bias. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Burden of proof fallacy & existential fallacy. If you want to prove you had some culture, you have to prove it, not cry UFO. There was no culture in Japan of Breaking stones. In any case, Karate's Breaking comes from Mas Oyama.

I don't need to persuade your kind of people. I just need scholars & objective people to acknowledge the truth then side with the truth.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jan 6, 2019)

I dont know who is pretending that Karate 'invented' breaking.  Its entirely reasonable that other arts did it first and that karate even adopted it as it did with many other techniques or its not that outlandish of a thing for it to be 'invented' independently of other arts.  Im sure many arts developed techniques to test themselves against objects long before Korea ever did.  So i totally agree with your post, but i dont appropriate its air of looking down on Karate.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Burden of proof fallacy & existential fallacy. If you want to prove you had some culture, you have to prove it, not cry UFO. There was no culture in Japan of Breaking stones.


Proving a point does not mean only finding data to support that point. It means finding and examining the counterpoints and placing them in the wider historical context,then deciding if the data objectively demonstrates what must have been. Your data does not do so. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

There is no contradicting data against that Korea had Breaking. There is no logic why Korea shouldn't have Breaking. There's no proof that Korea didn't have Breaking. There are proofs that Korea had Breaking. Also, Korea had many Fight Games & martial arts historically recorded. Also, Breaking was created by trial & error with common sense strikes in power circus performance art with relation to Qiqong/Kooksundo. It's not from martial art originally. And this Power Circus teaches Breaking & strikes by teaching Breaking & practicing Breaking for Breaking.

I've seen many people, particularly Japanese, who pretend that Karate invented Breaking & that Korea & China didn't have Breaking. I've seen people pretending Korea & China copied Breaking culture from Karate. Hence, writing articles with reputable sources.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Japan & Karate. Although not intentional, that air might show. I think I'm done in this website. I can't commit much to computer anyway due to my living condition. Also, there's no contradicting proof, data, logic why something shouldn't be. Even if there was any such data, it wouldn't win against my data.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

And what about credible sources from outside Korea regarding the earliest origins of breaking there? Where are your sources there?

If you want to claim it was copied from Korea, you better have pretty solid evidence on the earliest instances in all cases and a link as to how and why the copying happened.

Right now, everyone here is writing you off as not credible based on your TKD thread. You clearly have an agenda and a strong sense of nationalism and it clouds your objectivity. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Sources don't have to be outside Korea. They just have to be credible. The oldest reference of Breaking that I know of is from Korea 1000 years ago. Mongol's Khan heard of Heuimok Kim being able to break a stone with hand strike. They asked for him to visit to show it off.

I showed Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking record 300 years ago & Sambong Gil's Hand Breaking record 400 years ago. (There are more, I'm just saving space & time.) The copying happened because Mas Oyama was trying to sell his Karate, and he wanted to do something other Karate schools don't do. Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu was a popular audience attraction even back then as a street circus.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> "I was first" has the right to claim a culture. Also, in any case, Japan didn't have Breaking/Tameshiwari. China & Korea had it. Also, Japan was exposed to Breaking through Korea, not through China. If you have an issue, go debate Graham Noble. China & Korea had Breaking/Tameshiwari. Japan didn't have it. Japan learned it from Korea.
> 
> I don't see any bias. I see reputable sources & references. Breaking existed before Japan. Korea had it before Japan. Propaganda distorts logic & data. I'm not distorting anything. The conclusions arise naturally from the given data.


Graham Noble didn't present the topic here. You did, so people will debate your presentation.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Sources don't have to be outside Korea. They just have to be credible. The oldest reference of Breaking that I know of is from Korea 1000 years ago. Mongol's Khan heard of Heuimok Kim being able to break a stone with hand strike. They asked for him to visit to show it off.
> 
> I showed Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking record 300 years ago & Sambong Gil's Hand Breaking record 400 years ago. (There are more, I'm just saving space & time.) The copying happened because Mas Oyama was trying to sell his Karate, and he wanted to do something other Karate schools don't do. Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu was a popular audience attraction even back then as a street circus.


So you are saying you haven't looked into it outside Korea. 

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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Burden of proof fallacy & existential fallacy. If you want to prove you had some culture, you have to prove it, not cry UFO. There was no culture in Japan of Breaking stones. In any case, Karate's Breaking comes from Mas Oyama.
> 
> I don't need to persuade your kind of people. I just need scholars & objective people to acknowledge the truth then side with the truth.


Actually, a burden of proof fallacy is when the claimant (person making a claim) attempts to put the burden of proof on someone challenging their information. Thus, you are the one committing that fallacy.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I don't need to persuade your kind of people. I just need scholars & objective people to acknowledge the truth then side with the truth.



You assume we are a) not scholars and b) not objective. 

And, if you aren't trying to persuade us, then why are you here?





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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea. Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).

True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.

Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea.



That's my point exactly. You SHOULD ALREADY KNOW. Otherwise, your conclusion cannot be considered robust. 



Steven Lee said:


> Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).
> 
> True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.
> 
> Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.



I don't think you understand the burden of proof. I also don't think you understand how critical thinking works. Maybe read up on that before you waste your time researching further. Considering the litany of misinformation that was originally distributed as a history for TKD, individual sources in Korea cannot be relied upon regardless of their age. The information needs to be corroborated in the wider historical context. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

And I'm telling you, Japan didn't have Breaking. Korea & China had Breaking. Korea seems to be before China in Breaking. It is unreasonable to read every single existing records in the world. We just put in reasonable amounts of efforts then conclude based on it. So far, there's no logical necessity nor reputable reference denying any my historical facts, data, proofs.

Burden of proof means, you are not allowed to say "prove that I didn't see UFO".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea. Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).
> 
> True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.
> 
> Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.


So, is your assertion that breaking was not practiced in Japan prior to Mas Oyama's introduction? Or that whatever breaking was practiced before that time simply died off along the way?

Oh, and true scholars quibble all the time. That's how they help each other refine their conclusions.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> And I'm telling you, Japan didn't have Breaking. Korea & China had Breaking. Korea seems to be before China in Breaking. It is unreasonable to read every single existing records in the world. We just put in reasonable amounts of efforts then conclude based on it. So far, there's no logical necessity nor reputable reference denying any my historical facts, data, proofs.
> 
> Burden of proof means, you are not allowed to say "prove that I didn't see UFO".


So when was the first instance of breaking in Japan. If you can't at least answer that question, you don't have a case, because it exists there now. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim. Also, whatever Japan had or didn't have is irrelevant to Karate's Breaking. It's from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim.


You think? You think you were told?

Wow. Just wow. 

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## Headhunter (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.
> 
> Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:
> 
> ...


At the end of the day...does it matter?


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> At the end of the day...does it matter?


It does if you have an agenda. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

I don't have to do research beyond reasonable doubts, reasonable efforts. Also, such is an irrelevant information anyway cause Karate's Breaking today has nothing to do with such imitation not a Japanese art, not connected to Karate's Breaking. The main focus is about Kiaijutsu & Mas Oyama. I don't need to do research beyond that scope.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Yeah, I don't want to lose or share any cultural wealth of Korea. It matters to me, to my background (Korea) that I feel. It matters. Truth is important. I just want to portrait them quibbling over obvious historical facts & proofs that cannot be denied nor disproved by their lack of logical necessity nor reputable reference against such. Whatever recent reference they talk about, the question is whether the source is reputable, whether the reference is reputable. And they don't have any reputable reference in the history fields.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Japan didn't have Breaking. Breaking exists in Japan now because they copied it from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu regardless of Japan having imitated Breaking before that (just an imitation, not a Japanese art, also no connection to Karate's Breaking). But I think I was told Japan showed Breaking 400 years ago once. Called it Golbub (Bone Method?) or something. Placed a stone on a knee, slapped it to break it. I don't have to do research beyond reasonable degrees. Also, Japan is supposed to provide proofs for what they claim. Also, whatever Japan had or didn't have is irrelevant to Karate's Breaking. It's from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway.


I've never heard anyone claim any country was the progenitor of breaking before now. If you have, I think you've inflated the occurrence, since most folks will start from the default position that it probably occurred everywhere. I broke sticks as a kid, without anyone ever showing me that as a thing to do. I'm pretty sure kids (and adults) in every country that has ever existed have done something similar. And that seems a likely path to using it as a tool in martial arts training.

To claim Japan's breaking comes from Korea, you'd have to first show how that easy, plausible explanation above isn't very likely.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Korea didn't invent Breaking. The culture was common like Graham Noble illustrated. Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe. But not in Japan. And Japan didn't invent Breaking nor copied it from China. They got it from Mas Oyama (introduced Tameshiwari/Breaking to Karate's curriculum) & Kiaijutsu, including hard frontal hitting technique (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed). Other sports doing Breaking today is not from copying Karate; it's historical & traditional.

I Think I'm done in this website for good. I hope my writings touched many objective people & historians.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Korea didn't invent Breaking. The culture was common like Graham Noble illustrated. Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe. But not in Japan. And Japan didn't invent Breaking nor copied it from China. They got it from Mas Oyama (introduced Tameshiwari/Breaking to Karate's curriculum) & Kiaijutsu, including hard frontal hitting technique (shoulder-push & Yong stacking speed). Other sports doing Breaking today is not from copying Karate; it's historical & traditional.
> 
> I Think I'm done in this website for good. I hope my writings touched many objective people & historians.



Now that's a flounce if ever I saw one.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

pdg said:


> Now that's a flounce if ever I saw one.


... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar. 

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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Well that's just a subjective quibble which doesn't address irrefutable perfect data.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> And they don't have any reputable reference in the history fields.


This is a vague statement (Who are "they"?) and almost certainly indefensible ("don't have any").


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Gnarlie said:


> Today I learned that when I say something someone doesn't like, it's just a quibble and it means that I, as a person, am neither objective, nor a scholar.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


See, you learn better than I do. I said I wouldn't be able to learn anything.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Breaking existed in Korea, China, India, Europe.




What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2019)

When it comes down to who invented breaking........


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!


Mystery solved.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!



We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

pdg said:


> We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.


There ya go.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.


Not even sure this is even relevant to learning a martial arts.  People train and use martial arts every day and none of it revolves around who invented Breaking.  Which from what I was told was created in NewYork ,  but there's a theory that breaking is much older than that.





There's a lot of debate out there as to just who created breaking





But it probably didn't come from Korea.

The purpose of this is to highlight that it really doesn't matter who invented "Breaking"  This picture is said to be of an old Kung Master demonstrating iron palm.  I'm pretty sure he's not the first person to demonstrate that he could break something with his hand.  Considering that people were breaking jaws and facial bones in fighting, it would only seem the natural tendency to test one's fist durability by breaking something with their fist or hand.






Who "invented" breaking is completely insignificant. And topics like this pretty much are beginning to highlight your extreme dislike of Karate.  If you really dislike karate that much then just come out and say it. If you like Korean martial arts then just say you like that, without having to try to make statements about systems that you don't like.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

pdg said:


> I think it's utterly illogical to state that one particular region (or worse, one art) has the unequivocal right to claim that it invented breaking stuff as a show of strength or even a competitive activity.
> 
> Apes break stuff to intimidate potential opponents - it's very safe to assume they didn't get it from karate either...


Gorillas invented all martial arts.  Leaping attacks, sprawls, shoots, punches. drop kicks. Hopefully this will end any confusion on who create what and when lol.




But bears were the first to use the staff


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Graham Noble didn't present the topic here. You did, so people will debate your presentation.


lol.  not me.  This one topic gets 5 free tickets on the Silly Train, Destination what difference does it make.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

pdg said:


> We invented carrying as well then, they ain't local stones.


Good thing you told me this.  I always wanted to know who invented carrying. I bet the ants are going to be pissed off.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> At the end of the day...does it matter?


lol.  not one bit.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Good thing you told me this.  I always wanted to know who invented carrying. I bet the ants are going to be pissed off.



That's a colour photograph - it's obviously modern imagination with bias and agenda.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> What! We broke things in Europe! Well I never, I guess that explains Stonehenge. Perhaps we invented breaking here!


Chinese have a long history of not breaking stuff.
Recommend searching youtube for Shaolin Kung Fu: Iron testicles. (must see) I just can't post it here lol.     

So I'll post this one video instead.  These guys couldn't bust a grape


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2019)

Those gorillas were seriously scary! Interesting though in the way they fought.


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

The point was that Karate's Breaking came from Korea, Mas Oyama (Choi), Kiaijutsu (Kihapsul/Charyuk). Both the game concept & also the hitting technique different from Karate came from Korea. Breaking's hand strike pushes shoulder forward while stacking (Yong) speed & power in the hand instead of exploding at the start like Karate with no power left at the moment of impact. It's just like the Muyedobotongji Gwonbub & Gyuksul pictures I showed. Also, Ikmyung Yang's Breaking mentions using Yongryuk (stacking speed, power in motion). Also, Breaking was self-created by trial & error, nothing to do with martial art nor Kung Fu, has more to do with Qiqong/Kooksundo. Also, Subak had straight slap, frontal Knife Hand strike, punch anyway.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> instead of exploding at the start like Karate with no power left at the moment of impact.



That statement, all by itself, is proof that you know very very little about karate (in any of it's multiple forms).


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

No. Original Karate punch is like Kung Fu. It explodes at the start of the punch. Even today, they emphasize implosion. Breaking is the opposite. It moves from slow to fast, accelerating to have the maximum power & speed at the end, just like Korean Ikmyung Yang's Hand Breaking using Yong (stacking speed, power). Also, shoulder-push is important for hand strike for that extra mass & strength. You can see Mas Oyama's Breaking videos. His hand moves from slow to fast. Here's also my Breaking video, breaking a natural stone. Slow to fast, acceleration. I didn't work out much back then. 




In any case, it's a fact perfect & sure enough that Karate's Breaking came from Korean Kiaijutsu & Mas Oyama (Choi). And Oyama was exposed to Korean techniques since he was a Korean & also mentioned Chosun-Gwonbub in his book.


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## DaveB (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Karate didn't invent Breaking/Tameshiwari, Korea had it first.
> 
> Quoting Graham Noble who has a lot of reputable sources & references in this issue:
> 
> ...


Who cares?


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

I feel really alone & forced upon me things I don't have to do nor want to do on so many things (including personal human rights but also being forced bullshits on sports history). Truth matters. I don't care if someone tells me not to care about the truth. Truth matters in general. Truth matters to me, especially if my label, background (Korea) is tainted, harmed on any loss or profit issues in any way.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I feel really alone & forced upon me things I don't have to do nor want to do on so many things (including personal human rights but also being forced bullshits on sports history). Truth matters. I don't care if someone tells me not to care about the truth. Truth matters in general. Truth matters to me, especially if my label, background (Korea) is tainted, harmed on any loss or profit issues in any way.


You're not doing Korea any favours here... 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

I'm not trying to give profits to Korea. I'm not trying to do anyone a favor. It is just that, it's unacceptable to tolerate any wrongful harms, losses on anything of mine or anything of my background (Korea). I just don't want to lose or share anything of mine or Korea's. I am being very decent here, especially after everything that has been going on.


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## Gnarlie (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'm not trying to give profits to Korea. I'm not trying to do anyone a favor. It is just that, it's unacceptable to tolerate any wrongful harms, losses on anything of mine or anything of my background (Korea). I just don't want to lose or share anything of mine or Korea's. I am being very decent here, especially after everything that has been going on.


You are demonstrating a poor research methodology, that I hope is unique to you and not a Korean thing. That would be damaging. 

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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

I showed proofs, I showed conclusion inferred directly from reading out the proofs (writings & pictures). That's a pretty standard academic system. All historians do it that way, including the use of pictures as proofs.


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## jks9199 (Jan 6, 2019)

@Steven Lee

You seem to be rather preoccupied with showing that various martial arts concepts or practices originated in Korea...

Would you perhaps know an older, most definitely Korean gentleman fond of kimonos and soap operas?  He's from a small fishing town...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## Steven Lee (Jan 6, 2019)

Not unless he has a pretty Korean or Caucasian daughter. Also, I'm not into Japanese stuffs. Especially because my life has been hard, I'm not fond of Japan. I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc). I don't want to do anything I don't have to do nor want to do. My life is hard because people with their own greed, agenda, goals force their intentions onto me. They pretend as if I have to allow them to push me to a certain degree when I don't want to let them do anything. My life is messed up; I feel alone; I'm tired of everything including but not limited to sports history nonsense.

I think I'm done with this website. Hope my proofs, conclusions, feelings made connection to many scholars & objective people. My living condition right now doesn't allow me much (nor consistent) computer time anyway. This website is too taxing to me.


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## pdg (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Not unless he has a pretty Korean or Caucasian daughter. Also, I'm not into Japanese stuffs. Especially because my life has been hard, I'm not fond of Japan. I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc). I don't want to do anything I don't have to do nor want to do. My life is hard because people with their own greed, agenda, goals force their intentions onto me. They pretend as if I have to allow them to push me to a certain degree when I don't want to let them do anything. My life is messed up; I feel alone; I'm tired of everything including but not limited to sports history nonsense.



You see (well, you don't see, which is the problem) this is where your bias comes from.

You don't want anything Japanese to 'taint' your life.

That's entirely your choice, but stop seeking validation for your biased inferences from people who don't share your prejudice.



Steven Lee said:


> I think I'm done with this website. Hope my proofs, conclusions, feelings made connection to many scholars & objective people. My living condition right now doesn't allow me much (nor consistent) computer time anyway. This website is too taxing to me.



Of course it's taxing, because nobody here is likely to roll over and comply without question.

We're not going to just agree with a couple of unsubstantiated documents, especially when contradictory translations have been offered.


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> Also, I'm not into Japanese stuffs. Especially because my life has been hard, I'm not fond of Japan. I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc).


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I feel really alone & forced upon me things I don't have to do nor want to do on so many things (including personal human rights but also being forced bullshits on sports history). Truth matters. I don't care if someone tells me not to care about the truth. Truth matters in general. Truth matters to me, especially if my label, background (Korea) is tainted, harmed on any loss or profit issues in any way.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I don't want anything Japan in my life (sports, girl, electronics, etc).


Not sure what this is about but it has nothing to with Martial arts.  Whatever you feel that Japan or Japanese people is something you either work out on your own or get some professional help to deal with the trauma that you seem to be dealing with.  I wish you the best on that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> instead of exploding at the start like Karate with no power left at the moment of impact


If this is your conception of Karate's power generation, then your entire chain of logic is questionable. You've compared something which might be TKD power generation to something that is definitely not an accurate view of Karate's. Then you look at it and say, "Nope, breaking doesn't look like that thing (that isn't Karate), so it can't have come from the same place Karate did."


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> No. Original Karate punch is like Kung Fu. It explodes at the start of the punch. Even today, they emphasize implosion.


Incorrect. Also, wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'm not trying to give profits to Korea. I'm not trying to do anyone a favor. It is just that, it's unacceptable to tolerate any wrongful harms, losses on anything of mine or anything of my background (Korea). I just don't want to lose or share anything of mine or Korea's. I am being very decent here, especially after everything that has been going on.


Then why are you making fallacious statements about arts from Japan. Is that not also harmful action?


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## CB Jones (Jan 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure what this is about but it has nothing to with Martial arts.  Whatever you feel that Japan or Japanese people is something you either work out on your own or get some professional help to deal with the trauma that you seem to be dealing with.  I wish you the best on that.



There is a big Anti-Japanese Sentiment in Korean culture due to Japanese rule and a belief Japan appropriated their culture.

These feelings are shared by both North and South.

South Koreans openly express this and North Korea puts out propaganda supporting it.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 6, 2019)

... Didn't the Koreans invent the Japanese?



Also, I invented breaking.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 6, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.



Have you ever looked into that a bit more deeply? You say you're tired, and that it's apparently you against the world. Yet you've come on here directly to make statements that brings about that reality. Perhaps your belief brings it about? I'm speaking more broadly about your experience, as I'm sure it's not just confined to martial arts.

You don't have to prove anything to anyone. The needing to prove and have others "side with truth" and side with you may be wearing you out..

You don't have to do that anymore.. worth looking into.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 6, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> There is a big Anti-Japanese Sentiment in Korean culture due to Japanese rule and a belief Japan appropriated their culture.
> 
> These feelings are shared by both North and South.
> 
> South Koreans openly express this and North Korea puts out propaganda supporting it.


Yeah I understand that because my wife's family had to hide from them.  As bad as it was, that's not the case now and people are going to let the hate for criminals long dead eat at their souls.  It's fine to be cautious of a country, race, or group but to hate an entire country to that extent will poison the soul.and the mind.  I grew up around a people who had a similar hate for white people because of slavery.and segregation.  At some point a person just have to let go of the hate.  Now if the OP is currently being abused then that's a different story, which requires a solution that is probably a legal matter.


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## Martial D (Jan 6, 2019)

So today we learned;

Karate will get you beaten and/or killed in Korea.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah I understand that because my wife's family had to hide from them.  As bad as it was, that's not the case now and people are going to let the hate for criminals long dead eat at their souls.  It's fine to be cautious of a country, race, or group but to hate an entire country to that extent will poison the soul.and the mind.  I grew up around a people who had a similar hate for white people because of slavery.and segregation.  At some point a person just have to let go of the hate.  Now if the OP is currently being abused then that's a different story, which requires a solution that is probably a legal matter.




It's not something that is unique to Korea either, my mother was the only survivor of the Nazi concentration camps, her entire family were killed. The West Indies had their entire indigenous population wiped out, Australia nearly did. I could go on, but each one will be painful for a person on this site I imagine.

I'm not playing down what the Japanese did in Korea, here in the UK we have a lot of people who survived their POW camps including many who were children at the time but thinking you are the only one affected by these actions and making out that you alone are suffering is very wrong. We don't know the background of posters here, perhaps each one of us can tell a story of suffering at the hands of others but we have to learn to live with this, we can seek justice and to forgive or not but to come on here as if he were some 'noble' warrior is unacceptable.

*Now I'm going to tell you a story and please pay attention because I want you to all lobby whoever you can to make something happen here in the UK. Please do this for an old man and the people who died so he could grow old. Share the story with your friends, on social media , local media and see if we can get this done. it's something that needs to be done, 
*
In 1944 B-17 Flying Fortress, known as Mi Amigo was in trouble as they flew over Sheffield England, they needed to land. They saw a park to land in but there were children on it, they tried to wave the children off but the kids thought the Americans were just waving so waved back. Unwilling to land and hurt the children they turned away and crashed killing all ten. These are newspaper reports, they aren't forgotten but please read and help an old man get his flypast. For every bad person, there are many good people, something we need to remember.

VIDEO: Man who witnessed bomber plane crash into Sheffield park relives tragedy

Pensioner who witnessed US plane crash in WW2 wants fly-past to honour 10 airmen

_Yes this is totally 'off topic' but also on topic because we need to remember the good as well as the bad._


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## pdg (Jan 7, 2019)

It's Monday morning, one of my allocated "be a picky bugger" time slots...



Tez3 said:


> my mother was the only survivor of the Nazi concentration camps, her entire family were killed



That's not the best choice of wording - many others survived too...

But I get your meaning, and I'm not attempting to make light of the situation. There are members of my family that I never got the chance to meet because they didn't survive. But if it had not happened, I wouldn't exist.

And here is where we must draw the important distinction between 'letting go' and 'forgetting'.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2019)

pdg said:


> It's Monday morning, one of my allocated "be a picky bugger" time slots...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes you are making light, and there really was no need for that, you demean the whole post with your self admitted nit picking. You got offended by the mention of 'god' yet think it's fine to pick up what you consider wrong wording, you have also entirely missed the point of my post ie the gentlemen who survived thanks to ten brave airmen so frankly you can foxtrot oscar.


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## pdg (Jan 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Yes you are making light, and there really was no need for that, you demean the whole post with your self admitted nit picking. You got offended by the mention of 'god' yet think it's fine to pick up what you consider wrong wording, you have also entirely missed the point of my post ie the gentlemen who survived thanks to ten brave airmen so frankly you can foxtrot oscar.



I specifically quoted a section of the post that was effectively unrelated to the story that followed. There was more than one subject contained in that post, and I can comment on one without affecting the other.

If I say "I like beer, and I like kittens" and someone comments "I don't like beer" - should I then infer "omg why do you hate kittens???"?

Maybe I should, it follows the same logic.


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## Tez3 (Jan 7, 2019)

pdg said:


> If I say "I like beer, and I like kittens" and someone comments "I don't like beer" - should I then infer "omg why do you hate kittens???"?



Irrelevant. You know what I meant yet chose to make a hurtful post on why you thought the wording was wrong. Do you also correct people at funerals when they are speaking of those they lost?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 7, 2019)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please return to the original topic and stop the personal attacks.

Thank you
Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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## paitingman (Jan 7, 2019)

OP, @Steven Lee ,

Welcome to MartialTalk. It gets wild on here, my friend.

I want to say that I appreciate you posting your findings.
Respectfully, I really think that if you posed more questions and open invitations to analyze and discuss these snippets of Korean martial arts history you have to present, quite a few of us on here (first in line being me ) would really like to chat about it.

It's really neat that you've found some of this stuff. I'm not familiar with the material you've shown, so thanks for sharing.

I hope your posts go better in the future.


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

6 “I’m done with this place” posts by the same guy in the same thread. Must be a record.

At least I think it was 6. I’m not motivated enough right now of as researcher,  or am I good at math. So how’s 6 +/- 1 sound?

I told you all if you waited patiently enough, a new one would arrive. Let’s see how long this goes on for


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

In all of this nonsensical rambling, two points jump out at me that should be addressed...

As far as I know, the earliest any “karate” was on mainland Japan was around 1917, when Funakoshi made his first trip to Japan to introduce it there.

And there was no “karate” as we know it until 1936, which is when Funakoshi changed the name from “China hand” to “open hand.”

Karate in Japan not having breaking until Oyama brought it from Korea has been said a dizzying amount of times. Let’s suspend reality for a minute and say this is true. That doesn’t mean karate didn’t have breaking at all. Stupid question, but is there any proof no karateka broke anything in Okinawa, where karate actually came from? Karate was heavily influenced by the Chinese which have been said to had breaking long before the Japanese didn’t n this ridiculous thread. Do you really think the Okinawans didn’t see anyone breaking anything during this influential time? Or did the Chinese keep it secret 

Not to stereotype a whole group of people, but Okinawan karateka really like to hit things - makiwara and the like. It’s pretty stupid to think they didn’t break anything. They’re not too stupid to figure out breaking things would be another way to determine how strong their techniques were. Same for the pre-Funakoshi Japanese people. And the pre-Oyama people.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> In all of this nonsensical rambling, two points jump out at me that should be addressed...
> 
> As far as I know, the earliest any “karate” was on mainland Japan was around 1917, when Funakoshi made his first trip to Japan to introduce it there.
> 
> ...


One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?


Well, MAists are smarter than the rest of the people out there, so I guess there’s a chance they knew you can’t win a fight against nonliving objects. 

I’m really trying here


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## JR 137 (Jan 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> One of my points earlier was that people (not even just martial artists, but people) tend to try breaking things as kids. I used to break sticks. Sometimes with other sticks, sometimes by stomping on them, etc. I think as a young boy that was part of me testing out my abilities. I can't see how that would be unlikely to occur in any culture where wood or some similar substance exists, so it seems likely it existed - outside of martial arts - in China, Okinawa, and Japan as long as people have been there. Why would martial artists have been the ones NOT doing it?


My friends and family around my age broke a ton of stuff. And none of us had MA experience. We also taped GI Joe guys to bottle rockets and other fireworks. Can we claim inventing that? And we put playing cards in our bikes’ spokes too.


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## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> We also taped GI Joe guys to bottle rockets and other fireworks.



Our equivalent to GI Joe was 'Action Man, we used to make parachutes for him and drop him from as high as height as we could. Wish we'd kept him and his clothes etc early ones are worth a fortune now. He's been on television recently too.
MoneySuperMarket - Epic Action Man | UK TV Advert Music


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2019)

@Steven Lee

oh for crying out-loud.....I get it, you have a TKD inferiority complex and need to prove TKD did everything first...who cares, big deal.....I seriously doubt TKD or Karate started breaking......I trained TKD BEFORE it was an Olympic sport...and you know what....we did not give a hoot about breaking boards....and my teacher was a student of General Choi....as Bruce Lee put it...Boards don't hit back.....and it had a lot of things TKD does not seem to do, or care about today.....so whether or not TKD did the triple spinning back flippity jibber kick first does not matter....the majority of TKD today does not do what it did 40 years ago....it does less.....where it comes from is interesting, but where it is at is more important....want to do something productive for TKD....first, stop tilting at windmills and second....bring the stuff back in that use to be there...in close fighting, joint locking and take downs....and kicking and striking in many more places that are not concerned about points and are concerned about real live SD


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## JR 137 (Jan 8, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> @Steven Lee
> 
> oh for crying out-loud.....I get it, you have a TKD inferiority complex and need to prove TKD did everything first...who cares, big deal.....I seriously doubt TKD or Karate started breaking......I trained TKD BEFORE it was an Olympic sport...and you know what....we did not give a hoot about breaking boards....and my teacher was a student of General Choi....as Bruce Lee put it...Boards don't hit back.....and it had a lot of things TKD does not seem to do, or care about today.....so whether or not TKD did the triple spinning back flippity jibber kick first does not matter....the majority of TKD today does not do what it did 40 years ago....it does less.....where it comes from is interesting, but where it is at is more important....want to do something productive for TKD....first, stop tilting at windmills and second....bring the stuff back in that use to be there...in close fighting, joint locking and take downs....and kicking and striking in many more places that are not concerned about points and are concerned about real live SD


Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.

Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing. 

Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.
> 
> Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing.
> 
> Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.



Likely the same place my daughter went...for a year....I watched in disbelief for a year.....surprisingly enough the owner of that chain of schools did not want to talk to me much after he found out who I trained with and when..... my daughter is now an Aikidoka and loving it


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## Buka (Jan 8, 2019)

Ah, the good old days....






Or went to the doctor...he even brought drugs to your house. I think they send Uber now.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> triple spinning back flippity jibber kick



Hahaha. As soon as my foot heals I'm totally gonna attempt this!


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## _Simon_ (Jan 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t agree more. My father and his brothers were TKD black belts in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s. One uncle decided to take it up again here right around 2000. He said it was nothing like what he did back then. They did high kicks and some jumping and spinning type stuff, but he said it was always made clear that that stuff was for flexibility and agility, not actual SD/fighting. The way they describe their training, I think it was very similar to Kyokushin karate, except they wore some padding and there was more emphasis on kicks. They punched quite often and kicked rib to thigh height. They’d target the head with kicks if it was there, but it certainly wasn’t a primary kicking target by any means.
> 
> Could’ve been different elsewhere during that era, but from what I’ve seen from the few non-competition TKD guys I’ve been around, I don’t think it was an isolated thing.
> 
> Being a local guy, I’m sure you can easily guess which TKD chain he attended and know how wonderful they are.


Ah yep I was speaking to one of my old Kyokushin instructors early December, and he was saying back in the early days (he loves saying that  ) they used to have TKD practitioners visit their dojo to train, mainly for sparring. And this guy being very old school spoke very highly of them. Said they fought really hard, showed alot of spirit, and daaaamn them kicks were good haha.

I love his stories


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## JR 137 (Jan 8, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Likely the same place my daughter went...for a year....I watched in disbelief for a year.....surprisingly enough the owner of that chain of schools did not want to talk to me much after he found out who I trained with and when..... my daughter is now an Aikidoka and loving it


And I’m quite sure she’s significantly better off. 

3.14159265359‘s TKD?


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## JR 137 (Jan 8, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Our equivalent to GI Joe was 'Action Man, we used to make parachutes for him and drop him from as high as height as we could. Wish we'd kept him and his clothes etc early ones are worth a fortune now. He's been on television recently too.
> MoneySuperMarket - Epic Action Man | UK TV Advert Music


My GI Joe guys would’ve been worth a lot of money if we didn’t blow them up. We did the parachute stuff too. We didn’t climb too high to drop them though; we threw them as high up as we could.

I saw the GI Joe F-16 I had sell for quite a sum a few years back. Too bad I rubbed banded fireworks to it and threw it like a paper airplane to simulate getting shot down too many times. I’m pretty sure everyone else did too, hence why one in practically any condition is quite rare. Our stuff actually looked like it was in a war 

Kids just don’t play like we used to anymore. Now I know I’m old after saying that


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 9, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> Hahaha. As soon as my foot heals I'm totally gonna attempt this!


Video, man. Video.


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 23, 2019)

Steven Lee said:


> I'd be happy to know if there's a Breaking Game reference in China or Japan before Korea. Also, in any case, modern Japanese Breaking/Tameshiwari comes from Mas Oyama & Kiaijutsu anyway. Both the game concept & the hitting technique (shoulder-push for frontal hand strike, Yong stacking speed as opposed to explosion at start).
> 
> True scholars wouldn't quibble nonsense. Objective people wouldn't quibble neither beyond reasonable doubts. I'm here because I'm tired. I feel like it's me against the whole world. I want the truth to be recognized. I don't want to do what I don't have to nor want to. I want bullshits to stop in any topic or any my rights.
> 
> Burden of proof fallacy means that the person making a claim should support with his own proofs. You claim you had something? Prove it. You want someone else to prove you didn't have something? That's a burden of proof fallacy.



Something for you to chew on from The Burden of Proof  If you understand all on that page good for you.  I don't, but the below phrase makes sense to me.

... in cosmologist Martin Rees' maxim, "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

You can believe or disbelieve.  But so much about MA is lost in the ages and former attempts to raise one's own art or beliefs above another's, I really only care about what I study and learn.  I don't much care what art invented something that is useful to me, only that it is useful, and I can learn and apply it.


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## JR 137 (Jan 23, 2019)

My biggest question in this whole asinine thread...

What karateka claimed they invented tameshiwari/breaking? Where’s the scholarly research on that one? I haven’t seen Oyama nor anyone else claim they were the first to break anything.


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