# ata? Good, bad newbie needs help



## atafamily (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok me and my family are new to the MA world and we have had my son enrolled at our local ATA school. His instructor is great and seems to run a good school. 

I am thinking about joining as well, I am in 43, ex body builder so I am above avg condition for my age. 

Question tho... I have been researching ATA and I find a lot of people think its a scam. Anyone have any insights or firendly thoughts you can share? 

I can honestly say most of the negative things they say about the ata I do not see at our school. We have been to several tournaments with my son. I guess if the ATA was a bad organization they would not be as successful. I am sure there are bad schools in any style. 

Thanks for feedback!


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2008)

I will just add a few tidbits from my perspective on the schools around me. They are all about the mighty dollar with very little focus on the Art and Self Defense of TKD, now with that being said I have had the pleasure of meeting some excellent teacher withen there organization. I prefer old school blood swat and bruses type of training but then again this is what I grew up with/ If you and your family are happy with the instructor and the job he is doing with your childern then it is the right place for you. I hope your training goes well.


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## Blindside (Dec 30, 2008)

For the three schools that I have seen in the Pacific Northwest, well, lets just say I'm underwhelmed. I wouldn't say its a scam, just a very typical, below average TKD/karate franchise system. On the upside it it gives me a chance to laugh at my friend and the camo belt that he at one point had.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 30, 2008)

atafamily said:


> Ok me and my family are new to the MA world and we have had my son enrolled at our local ATA school. His instructor is great and seems to run a good school.
> 
> I am thinking about joining as well, I am in 43, ex body builder so I am above avg condition for my age.
> 
> ...


 
ATA schools get debated on these forums alot from time to time.  You should stick around and get everyone's perspective...we have a TKD forum that would be a perfect place to post in the future, so you can keep track of the many things that happen and change in the TKD world.  So, first off, welcome to MT!

Now, down to business....

The ATA schools that I've been to and have sat in on have not been up to par, in my book.  There is virtually no contact when sparring, the techniques are sloppy, and there are too many kids in the classes that prohibit proper adult instruction.

Also, there are alot, alot of belts and testing fees, as well as other fees for equipment that may or may not be used, and is only allowed to be purchased within the school.

They also tend to churn out blackbelts like there's no tomorrow, and most of the blackbelts that I've seen from the local ATA schools aren't very good at all.  They have sloppy technique and don't understand what sparring with any contact at all is all about.  

Now, the school that your son is attending may very well be different...I have heard of a few ATA schools that weren't bad.  But the majority of the ATA schools that I've heard of and all of the ATA schools around here aren't worth the money that you pay.

Hope this helps.  Come on over to the TKD forum and have a look around, and see if you can find any other info that you may need!


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 30, 2008)

As a school owner (non-ATA), I'll share some insider things from the industry. Some of the leaders of the ATA market their business plans among the trade journals because they do have great financial results. Their viewpoint on the student is not one I would be comfortble with and if I were a perspective student, I would not want to be training in an organization that viewed me or my family that way. Their viewpoint is that everyone is going to quit anyways, so get as much cash up front as you can while they are excited. Upgrade their program (Black Belt Club, Leadership team, ect.) not based on merit (which if done on merit and earned over time is something I see as positive), but just as a sales hook for someone that they never intend to stay anyhow. As a former bodybuilder, you might be familiar with the marketing and sales strategies of many of the old health spa (Vic Tanny, Jack LaLaine, Grecian, Cosmopolitan, ect) chains. This is just this rip off strategy applied to martial arts. IMO, this not only hurts the students, but over time the publics perception of the industry as a whole. Also, if they are teaching a supplementary program like submission grappling, the ATA (as an org., not all the individual instructors) have that program as an income maker, not to make the student competent at grappling. I have always viewed the heiarchy for an instructor/school owner as the student is first; the school second; the staff is third; and myself fourth. I try to live up to using that as my guide. The ATA leaders who market their business plans to other schools state a very different philosophy.

The ATA is also infamous for their low training and testing standards as an organzation. They have taken some steps to upgrade this somewhat over the last few years. Like any org., there are going to be certain individuals who rise above and demand far more from themselves and of their students than the set standards of their org. I have met a few very good martial artists from the ATA over the years, but overall their quality is pretty low. This is one reason that they try to keep their students isolated and away from the rest of the MA community. It's easier to grow mushrooms that way; keep them in the dark and feed them manure.

You mentioned that they must be pretty good since they were financially successful, but their success is not based on quality. It's based on providing the market with what a large percentage of it wants and also on high turnover (though you've often already paid for it). To many parents, they want their kids to "achieve" a black belt, but neither their kids or the parents want to make too much of an investment in time or effort. With the ATA, this market niche is filled. They offer black belts in 12-18 months with little effort, sweat or growth neccesary (at least under org. requirements prior to their reforms). There is a significant part of the market that "want that belt" in 1/3 to1/4 of the time and far less effort, because they are far more interested in the belt than the personal growth, fitness and fighting skills that it is supposed to represent. Moms don't like their kids getting banged up, so their is very little contact. Adults have to go to work tommorow and don't want a black eye at a sales meeting, so the ATA handles this part of the niche as well. I am all in favor of safety for the students and building them up gradually towards higher contact, but you've got to take them up eventually. Flag football may be fine at one point, but if it was being played at the varsity level in high school, there would be a problem. Let alone a NFL flag team.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2008)

There is an ATA school in my neighborhood, my wife and I walk by frequently. We just shake our heads and keep going when we see what is going on there.

Mostly children, it seems like more of a daycare than martial arts training. Many of the children are wearing fairly high rank including black belts, yet their basics and techniques are very very sloppy. It is my opinion that if any one of these children successfully defended themselves in a real fight, it would be INSPITE of their ATA training, and not because of it.

Granted, this is my opinion from simply watching thru the window. I've never gone in and spoken with them nor closely observed a class. But this is my take on this particular school. I have no experience with any other ATA schools. But I would absolutely never ever recommend this particular school to anyone, including children, not even as a daycare alternative.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 30, 2008)

First, welcome to Martial Talk.

There are a lot of good & bad schools within EVERY branch &/or style of MA. The ATA seems to be the whipping boy of TKD for a lot of people. I have seen a few really bad ATA schools in my day. And yet, I have a friend who runs a very good ATA school.

MT's own Dave Leverech (sp?) is a an ATA 4th Dan & a solid martial artist by all accounts. So, just because it says ATA on the door doesn't mean it's bad. It's like judging a book by the cover.

I would say that if discipline, good technique, & self defense applications are taught at the school, it's probably a good school.


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## Twin Fist (Dec 30, 2008)

i cant really add much more than has already been said, but, I will not, not EVER go to a school that uses CAMOFLAGUE as a belt color.........


ALL ATA schools use camo as a belt level

ergo, i wont ever have anything to do with the ATA


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## Brandon Fisher (Dec 30, 2008)

My experience with what I have seen with ATA is really bad.  I have to believe its not all bad everywhere but I have heard so many bad stories I would not even consider walking into a ATA school.  With the fast and guaranteed promotions I have heard about, huge charges, no contact fighting (which I always ask what is that?), and 8 year old black belts after 1 year of training makes the red flags fly.

Now why are they successful, I can sum it up in one word "marketing".  Their marketing plan is unbelieveably good and many times their sales techniques are even better.  But there are plenty of people that what their type of martial arts with "cutesy" stuff and parents that want their kids to be black belts and not have to really work hard for it.  Thats their market alot of times.  But again I still have to believe that there is good somewhere in the ATA.


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## hkfuie (Dec 31, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> i cant really add much more than has already been said, but, I will not, not EVER go to a school that uses CAMOFLAGUE as a belt color.........
> 
> 
> ALL ATA schools use camo as a belt level
> ...


 
Cammo is just a color...well a mixture of colors.


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## atafamily (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks for the replys, I am going to go ahead and sign up, I would like to start in the leadership class with my son. 

I cant until I am a camo belt I dont believe. Now with this said I will be by far the oldest. I cant see myself sparring a 12 year old.. 

I wish my school would offer ADULTS only classes.. I am very athletic and getting thru the first few belts should be a breeze.. heck I can do the moves my 6 year old has done to make camo belt... In fact I would help him and correct him when he was doing forms..

I guess if I get good enough and feel I need more I can always pick up new style.


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## terryl965 (Jan 3, 2009)

atafamily said:


> Thanks for the replys, I am going to go ahead and sign up, I would like to start in the leadership class with my son.
> 
> I cant until I am a camo belt I dont believe. Now with this said I will be by far the oldest. I cant see myself sparring a 12 year old..
> 
> ...


 


What you said hit a nerve, you can all ready do what your child can do at camo belt and you wish they had an adult class. So why is it you are joining, I mean no disrepact but you have already gave them to strijes and still signing up. What three you do not want to spar a 12 year old, three strikes I would find another place for you and let your son stay there until his contract is up and change him as well.


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## atafamily (Jan 3, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> What you said hit a nerve, you can all ready do what your child can do at camo belt and you wish they had an adult class. So why is it you are joining, I mean no disrepact but you have already gave them to strijes and still signing up. What three you do not want to spar a 12 year old, three strikes I would find another place for you and let your son stay there until his contract is up and change him as well.


 

He was a tiny tiger.. they only taught half forms.. they did seem to advance him pretty quick.. I will not let him test until I can see him do songham 1 2 3 by memory.

As far as sparring with a 12 year old.. there are older people in the leadership class.. we have been to 2 classes and not all were there... I would assume I would spar with the instructor.. 

Best!

Thanks for reply -


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## RevIV (Jan 3, 2009)

atafamily said:


> Thanks for the replys, I am going to go ahead and sign up, I would like to start in the leadership class with my son.
> 
> I cant until I am a camo belt I dont believe. Now with this said I will be by far the oldest. I cant see myself sparring a 12 year old..
> 
> ...


 
ATA has great kids classes, not sure if its great for martial arts but their character building is good and I frequently get tips from the owners on business.  You are an x body builder?  you want to go up against kids?  Find a school in the area that has a good adult program and when your child is old enough you can get out of your contract when the term is up and have him switch over.


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## RevIV (Jan 3, 2009)

atafamily said:


> He was a tiny tiger.. they only taught half forms.. they did seem to advance him pretty quick.. I will not let him test until I can see him do songham 1 2 3 by memory.
> 
> As far as sparring with a 12 year old.. there are older people in the leadership class.. we have been to 2 classes and not all were there... I would assume I would spar with the instructor..
> 
> ...


 
A father telling a teacher when his son is going to test would not go over well in most schools.. Even if it is for the right reason.  You will just hold your son back who will not understand why his classmates outrank him now and he is just as good.  
Good luck with that one.


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## atafamily (Jan 4, 2009)

RevIV said:


> A father telling a teacher when his son is going to test would not go over well in most schools.. Even if it is for the right reason. You will just hold your son back who will not understand why his classmates outrank him now and he is just as good.
> Good luck with that one.


 

Ok My son is in the leadership class, he is 6 90% of these kids are black belt or red. He is about 6 belts away.. and he is only 6

As far as sparring 12 year olds I never said I wanted to spar 12 year olds not sure where you got that. 

There are adults that take classes here to .. 

I am done now with this thread .. I was just hoping to get feedback on The ATA. 

best


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## terryl965 (Jan 4, 2009)

atafamily let me help you a litle here, 1st thing is this,

*As far as sparring 12 year olds I never said I wanted to spar 12 year olds not sure where you got that.*

In red is your comments

I cant until I am a camo belt I dont believe. Now with this said I will be by far the oldest. I cant see myself sparring a 12 year old.. 

No what you said was you are the oldest by far and you could not see yourself sparring a 12 year old which means you had no one to spar.

*There are adults that take classes here to .. *

I wish my school would offer ADULTS only classes.. I am very athletic and getting thru the first few belts should be a breeze.. heck I can do the moves my 6 year old has done to make camo belt.

So which is it do they have an adult class or not, on one hand you said they do not have adults but on the other hand you say they do? I huess they combine the kids and adults?


*I am done now with this thread .. I was just hoping to get feedback on The ATA.*

You got feedback but it was not what you wanted to hear so now you leave, one of my biggest problem is 6 year old BB. How can they know anything let alone be a BB. You said you want to be push because tyou was a bodybuilder but yet you are going to a soft school that issue rank fo money. I guess you should be done with what you wrote. Have a wonderful day.


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## Guardian (Jan 4, 2009)

I'm don't know a dang thing about it to be honest here.

Go, give it a try and see what happens.  It's pretty simple in my book.

I wish you luck and above all else, have fun.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jan 4, 2009)

Again another ATA school giving black belts to 6 year olds.  I wonder why they don't have the respect from the martial arts community.


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## atafamily (Jan 5, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> atafamily let me help you a litle here, 1st thing is this,
> 
> *As far as sparring 12 year olds I never said I wanted to spar 12 year olds not sure where you got that.*
> 
> ...


 
Wow U sure read way to much into what I wrote. My son is in leadership, most of these students in there are kids, they mix kids in with the adults. My son is NOT a 6 year old BB.. The leadership classes that are taught at my school is the most detailed of all the classes they offer so yes I want to learn full forms, full range weapons and have the opportunity to spar. Now my son has been to two classes, where each time the oldest student I saw was 12, I do know there are other adults that participate in this class however I have not seen them. I could always spar with the insturctor..When I say I will be the oldest I am 43 starting a MA.. so yes I am one of the oldest in this school. 

I also made a comment about making my son was ready to test, if he wasnt ready or I as his parent felt he was moving to fast I will not let him test.. he is only 6. From what I can tell from my school getting to camo belt sems to go pretty fast, now getting from camo to black is whole different process. 

I got the feedback I wanted to hear and most of it has been positive. 

Untill your rude comments - 

You have a wonderful day -


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## terryl965 (Jan 5, 2009)

atafamily said:


> Wow U sure read way to much into what I wrote. My son is in leadership, most of these students in there are kids, they mix kids in with the adults. My son is NOT a 6 year old BB.. The leadership classes that are taught at my school is the most detailed of all the classes they offer so yes I want to learn full forms, full range weapons and have the opportunity to spar. Now my son has been to two classes, where each time the oldest student I saw was 12, I do know there are other adults that participate in this class however I have not seen them. I could always spar with the insturctor..When I say I will be the oldest I am 43 starting a MA.. so yes I am one of the oldest in this school.
> 
> I also made a comment about making my son was ready to test, if he wasnt ready or I as his parent felt he was moving to fast I will not let him test.. he is only 6. From what I can tell from my school getting to camo belt sems to go pretty fast, now getting from camo to black is whole different process.
> 
> ...


 
I wae not being rude ar any point, what I was doing was going back in asking question drom what you said. I have been in TKD forever it seems and was trying to figure out exactly what you was looking for. Ig the ATA is your cup of tea go for it, nut by all accounts it is not.  Remember you said there leadership class os maonly all kids not me r anyone else involved in this thread. I hope your training goes well and you find what it is you are looking for amd remember with the ATA you test when they say to and it is not an option, sorry but that is the truth.

I am sorry if you believe me to be rude at any point.


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## jarrod (Jan 5, 2009)

atafamily said:


> Wow U sure read way to much into what I wrote. My son is in leadership, most of these students in there are kids, they mix kids in with the adults. My son is NOT a 6 year old BB.. The leadership classes that are taught at my school is the most detailed of all the classes they offer so yes I want to learn full forms, full range weapons and have the opportunity to spar. Now my son has been to two classes, where each time the oldest student I saw was 12, I do know there are other adults that participate in this class however I have not seen them. I could always spar with the insturctor..When I say I will be the oldest I am 43 starting a MA.. so yes I am one of the oldest in this school.
> 
> I also made a comment about making my son was ready to test, if he wasnt ready or I as his parent felt he was moving to fast I will not let him test.. he is only 6. From what I can tell from my school getting to camo belt sems to go pretty fast, now getting from camo to black is whole different process.
> 
> ...


 
i've noticed terry's writing style can be a bit terse, but i've always found him to mean well & do his best to be helpful.  i'm sure he didn't mean to give any offense.  

best of luck with your class,

jf


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## dancingalone (Jan 5, 2009)

My niece is a ATA black belt and my nephew is enrolled in classes there also.  It's feel good martial arts.  The local school (which unfortunately they don't attend) isn't bad at all, but like all ATA schools they don't exactly teach true self-defense.  They do a lot of sports sparring and do their forms (which sadly have no strong applications behind them) and they do a lot of fun activities which keep the students engaged and having a good time.

It is what it is.  A lot of people want this type of martial arts, and the ATA is catering to their needs.  That's capitalism.


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## terryl965 (Jan 5, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> My niece is a ATA black belt and my nephew is enrolled in classes there also. It's feel good martial arts. The local school (which unfortunately they don't attend) isn't bad at all, but like all ATA schools they don't exactly teach true self-defense. They do a lot of sports sparring and do their forms (which sadly have no strong applications behind them) and they do a lot of fun activities which keep the students engaged and having a good time.
> 
> It is what it is. A lot of people want this type of martial arts, and the ATA is catering to their needs. That's capitalism.


 
You bring up some great poinrs dancingalone and you are right, they founf a nivhe in the market place and used it the best out of everybody. I tend t believe if you go in with your eyes open and know what you are getting then great. I wish more people would have your ability to see what it is that the want.:asian:


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## terryl965 (Jan 5, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i've noticed terry's writing style can be a bit terse, but i've always found him to mean well & do his best to be helpful. i'm sure he didn't mean to give any offense.
> 
> best of luck with your class,
> 
> jf


 
You are rifgt jarrod I meant to harm to anybody, I believe if  you are getting what you are paying for then keep training and moving forward.


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## Ninebird8 (Jan 5, 2009)

Although I am in the Chinese arts for a long time, and sparred in the old days with many good TKD artists, I have a good friend here who is a legit 4th degree in TKD the old way and one of his teachers was ATA. He walked out shortly after getting his black belt there. Most TKD schools I see here in Houston are kid mills, with money flowing in and skill levels flowing out. Then again, I do have great objection to giving a full black belt to any one under the age of 18, no matter what the style. The problem with teaching kids today is two fold: first, to satisfy the lack of attention span and long-term goal setting of today's generation, and secondly, to satisfy today's parents with seeing their little Johnny or Joanna is somehow surpassing them in a quick time. 

When I have taught kids, and their parents, I tell them upfront that if they joined to get a high rank quickly, I am not the teacher for them. ATA schools that I have observed are basically belt mills, and are fine for competition, but there is no street protection value that I can ascertain.


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## Thunder Foot (Jan 11, 2009)

I would just like to add my own input to the original poster, ATAfamily.

Hello ATAfam, and welcome to Martial Talk! I can tell you, that I am a 2nd Degree Blackbelt within the ATA org, and my experience was a good one. My Sabomnim was actually a breakaway instructor from the WTF Federation. Through him, I got a broader understanding of Taekwondo, and the different types that exist today. As with any organization, there are good schools and bad ones as it all depends on your instructor. Its all in knowing what you are looking for, and keeping a watchful eye of what else is around you. I recommend trying the school out (as i see you've already joined), and seeing how you like it. As well as sitting in on a few other schools/styles to see what else is available to you.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 11, 2009)

Terry couldnt be rude if he was being paid to be.

it isnt a part of his character


ATAFamily,
trust me, you are misjudging terry

you may very well be in a GOOD ata school, they do exist.

but by and large, the ata is a belt factory, they exist to make money, and they do NOT give a good product in return.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 11, 2009)

hkfuie said:


> Cammo is just a color...well a mixture of colors.



yeah, a BS made up extra belt color to get another test fee out of people.....


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## Cirdan (Jan 12, 2009)

Avoid ATA like you would a hungry wounded female Grizzly on her period with a severe tooth ache and a splinter in every paw.


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## hkfuie (Jan 12, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, a BS made up extra belt color to get another test fee out of people.....


 
I agree with your sentiment, Twin Fist.  Just yanking your chain!


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## terryl965 (Jan 12, 2009)

I know one day there will be 50 belts and each one will be worth so much depending on the given pattern that the belt has, like if it was green with pink dots the belt test would be worth $200.00 and brown witha little light blue $250.00 and finally the best for lost a little yellow dot belt a whopping $10000.00.


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## dancingalone (Jan 12, 2009)

Choi Kwang Do has 18 colored belt ranks, divided by the regular and 'senior' grades.  And yes, my friend who studied the system said he paid a full $60 test fee for each rank, even when the color did not change.  He did get a new belt with a black stripe running through the middle to indicate he was a 'senior' green belt (for example).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Kwang_Do


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## Twin Fist (Jan 12, 2009)

oh good lord.............


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## atafamily (Feb 1, 2009)

Ok so an update regarding what I have learned in my first month of classes...

I am in a basic class, its a half hour and there are adults in it.. Once you get to Camo then you move to a different class and start sparring. 

There are 12 and under leadership classes, 13 to adult leadership class..and a blackbelt only class.. There are also separate classes for age groups in the masters program.

I am testing for orange in about a week.. We need to have songham 3 down with basic self defense.. also we will be doing real basic moves with the kama.. I can say as far as the form goes it looks easier than it is..but hey I got it down... I can say with all honestly in a 30 minute class its easy to see who takes time to actually practice this at home.

My son is the youngest in the leadership class he is almost 7 .. they are teaching him purple belt form In Wah 1 .. hard for him to remember the whole form they have him taking it half way..

I have heard that some dont think the ata does a lot of sparring.. my sons class is an hour and after their warm up they spar for about 30 minutes. i guess the ata is going to start to allow punches to the head.. not sure when this will start.

I wanted to participate in classes before I opened my mouth and said anything else stupid.. :whip1:  

I do see the ata does fit a niche.. 

Oh well thanks all and I will continue at our school and if and when my abilities improve and I am ready to learn something new I will ad another style ..

Best !


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## just2kicku (Feb 1, 2009)

Do they handout the black belt when you buy your first gi, or do you have to SUPERSIZE it? Oh, and can I get something to drink?:erg:


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## jarrod (Feb 2, 2009)

come on now, he found something that's a good fit for him & his family.  good for him.

jf


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## Sylo (Feb 2, 2009)

I haven't seen a good ATA school ever. I've seen quite a few. 

Here's the short run of what they consist of.. at least here..

1. expensive usually has family plans, because they want to suck as much money out of you as possible.
2. fees for EVERYTHING.
3. LOTS of belts, usually non standard belt colors to attract kids (camo, pink, red white and blue)
4. plastic weapon training (some of them even light up)
5. light gymnastics training (not sure what a cartwheel does in self defense)
6. patches out the wazoo (your uniform will make you look similar to a clown with all the patches they have)
8. everybody is a black belt. (If they aren't they will be in a few months)
9. Sloppy technique
10. "Kid friendly" is usually written right on the front window.

ATA is a good thing for "kids" its an after school program at best. I couldn't take myself serious if I went to an ATA school. Not to say that the stuff they "could" teach isn't good stuff. The song ahm patterns are fine, the fundamentals are definitely there. Its just how its taughts.. I'd dare say boy scouts/girl scouts is more of a challenge. Daycare fits ATA perfectly.


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## terryl965 (Feb 2, 2009)

If he is happy then that is all that matters.


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## Sylo (Feb 2, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> If he is happy then that is all that matters.


 
this is true.


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## just2kicku (Feb 2, 2009)

Okay, maybe my comment was a little harsh, but it's so frustrating seeing these belt factories that teach "martial arts". You go in there  and 10 yr olds are teaching the class and the adult instructors are trying to sell packages for an ungodly amount of money.
   The thing about these types of schools is that they're more interested in making money than passing on knowledge. Hey, if it works for him then good luck,. I would rather know that when our kids walk out of our dojo they can actually defend themselves.


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## Sylo (Feb 2, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Okay, maybe my comment was a little harsh, but it's so frustrating seeing these belt factories that teach "martial arts". You go in there and 10 yr olds are teaching the class and the adult instructors are trying to sell packages for an ungodly amount of money.
> The thing about these types of schools is that they're more interested in making money than passing on knowledge. Hey, if it works for him then good luck,. I would rather know that when our kids walk out of our dojo they can actually defend themselves.


 

what do you mean? They will be able to, as long as they are armed with a light up pair of num chucks.


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## astrobiologist (Feb 2, 2009)

I've never been to an ATA school, but, like almost everyone else I know, I've heard mostly the worst.  A few students from a nearby ATA school have come to ours, and it takes a lot of work to fix what the ATA taught them about SD.  The ATA seem to be the spearhead for american franchised kick-punch gymnastics.  

However, that said, if this guy has found something that makes him happy and is giving him a chance to learn something new with his son, then so be it.  I'm glad ATAFamily has chosen to come to Martial Talk and share this with us.  The fact that he did some research and seems to be taking his approach to his new school with an open mind is a good thing.  At his age, the gymnastics workout will be great for him.  I hope he understands that he will be getting a sub-par self defense education, but street defense isn't what everyone wants.  The ATA have something for the people who want the gymnastics, the point-sparring, and the flashy stuff.  They have the multi-colored and camo belts and flashy uniforms and plastic weapons with lights and there are some people who want that.  Those of us who prefer the martial side of "martial arts" really aren't being hurt by the ATA, we just need people to understand what it is they're learning there.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 2, 2009)

> I can say with all honestly in a 30 minute class its easy to see who takes time to actually practice this at home.


 
Class is only 30 mins long?


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## Sylo (Feb 2, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Class is only 30 mins long?


 
this puzzled me as well..

15 minutes of my class is spent stretching..

not sure how you'd get anything accomplished in just 30 minutes.. unless they are not warming up properly.


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## astrobiologist (Feb 2, 2009)

ya, a 30 minute class would be pretty weird.  I don't think I could get much accomplished if I only had a half hour to teach.  It could be done, but an hour to two hours is much better for a general class length.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 2, 2009)

In ATA, the beginner classes for the small children are 30 minutes in length in most places.

Our adult and intermediate classes are all at least an hour. Most evenings my family spends at least 2 hours there.

I've trained in other forms of MA in the past. Presently I am very happy with the SD that is being taught. 

That all being said, there is disparity btwn various ATA schools. There are numerous sharks in the pool looking to take your money, there are also schools with dedicated instructors/owners. 

On a different topic, I find the insulting rhetoric regarding the ATA found on this website to be offensive. I have always treated people with respect and dignity, as humans that share the earth with me. However, many people here spout off half-truths and left-handed comments with usurped authority about an organization they are not involved with. Some of these people are BB's. Some of them are instructors. 

One thing I can assure you about the ATA, I have never heard my instructors bad mouth any of your disciplines. They respectfully crosstrain with some of your styles though.


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 2, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> One thing I can assure you about the ATA, I have never heard my instructors bad mouth any of your disciplines. They respectfully crosstrain with some of your styles though.


Let me assure you that your ATA school is unique in crosstraining and not trash talking then.  The ATA schools around here do not get involved in open tournaments or mix in with other groups.  One I believe has a Krav Maga program but again thats rare. Just recently there was a local ATA instructor arrested for child molestation which i have heard of happening within the ATA organization more than once.  Sad but ATA does not have a good reputation as a whole.  You will quickly find out that the martial arts is a small world and these things get around to good schools and instructors who in turn frown on it.


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## Cirdan (Feb 3, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> On a different topic, I find the insulting rhetoric regarding the ATA found on this website to be offensive. I have always treated people with respect and dignity, as humans that share the earth with me. However, many people here spout off half-truths and left-handed comments with usurped authority about an organization they are not involved with.


 
Sorry you feel that way but ATA`s reputation is very well earned.



> Some of these people are BB's. Some of them are instructors.


Some of those BB`s are five years old. A lot of those instructors are doing more harm than good.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 3, 2009)

Cirdan wrote:


> Some of those BB`s are five years old. A lot of those instructors are doing more harm than good.



Cirdan, you have not caught the meaning of what I am writing. I am making the statement that the insults and the name calling that is going on here is being done by BlackBelts, instructors, and owners on this site. These are all groups of people whom I would expect more out of on a personal level. I have never in all of my life been taught by any instructor, teacher, or coach, that people who did things differently were as a rule as bad as the ATA is, per some peoples opinions.

Brandon Fisher wrote:


> Just recently there was a local ATA instructor arrested for child molestation which i have heard of happening within the ATA organization more than once.



That in itself is sad and despicable, but are you willing to say that it applies to the organization as a whole? What about soccer coaches, priests, gym teachers, ...... the lists go on and on. No large organization is ever free from evil men and women.


Don't get me wrong I know the ATA has some seriously lax standards when compared to other more traditional schools. However, there are some good people out there and some good schools out there that are being included in disparaging blanket statements. 

BB's are way to easy to come by in my opinion, (in the ATA), but I've never seen a 5 year old BB, that is for sure. I'm sure they exist, but I wouldn't say that every school has them. A few times a week I am surrounded by children with BB's, most of them are about 10. Again, I agree it's way too young. But I'm not able to say that because of that, an entire organization is bad.


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## Sylo (Feb 3, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> Cirdan wrote:
> 
> 
> Cirdan, you have not caught the meaning of what I am writing. I am making the statement that the insults and the name calling that is going on here is being done by BlackBelts, instructors, and owners on this site. These are all groups of people whom I would expect more out of on a personal level. I have never in all of my life been taught by any instructor, teacher, or coach, that people who did things differently were as a rule as bad as the ATA is, per some peoples opinions.
> ...


 
It would be different if we were slandering the ATA with falsities. Everything that has been mentioned has happened in multiple ATA schools. I do not know of 1 ATA school in my area alone, that is legitimate. I've even checked some of them out, because I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. But like has already been stated. The reputation they have, is well deserved. Noone is saying that you can't get good instruction at an ATA school, or that all ATA schools are bad. But, there definitely is a noticeable majority of them that are.

Like has already been said. You go where you can get what you want out of it. Many, many people enjoy the flash and casual training methods of the ATA over the more strict/strenuous nature of the more traditional schools. Nothing wrong with that. I don't particular agree with it, but thats my opinion and I am entitled to it. If I were to attend an ATA school, I'd stick out like a sore thumb.. as I can't follow most of what they do. Song Ahm Tae Kwon Do is no better or worse than ITF or WTF... or whatever. Its all the "commercialism" they've added that makes it less desirable to traditional martial artists. Its more of a "club" or a "program" rather than a martial arts school.

I know several "former" ATA students.. who went on to open their own non ATA schools. They will tell you that while they learned alot about TKD in ATA. They also learned what "not" to do, and was rather put off by all the mainstreaming of it. But, you have to remember.. ATA is basically the XMA poster boy so its expected.

Bottom Line is..

If you want to learn basic TKD with flash and a "entertainment value" tossed in.. go with ATA

If you want to learn basic TKD and don't care about the other stuff, find a more traditional school.

You can learn from both, and you can apply yourself (only you can do that, noone can make you) in both. It just doesn't help that the ATA instructors really won't push you to do so, so you'll have to do it on your own.

If someone can note ATA schools that do not follow the basic mcdojo formula it might be helpful to know what they are as to seperate the good from the bad.


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2009)

ATA is what it is, if people enjoy and respect that the training they are recieving will really work on the streets so be it. I know for a fact that the ATA schools around me SD is basic at best tought by people that have no clue what will and what will not work. Like I have said before if you are happy than that is all that matters. Enjoy your training but always be aware of sheep in wolf clothing.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Feb 3, 2009)

It's kind of funny to read a thread started by someone asking for opinions and then watch people including the original poster get insulted when people give their actual opinions.

In response to the one gentleman in the ATA who said they've never met a 5 year old BB.  I haven't either but I have had the pleasure of trying to explain to 7 yr old students of my own why it's gonna take them at least 6 months to get a yellow belt from me and probably close to 10 for a jrBB even though they have a friend their age who got a BB in less than 2.

However, I have had the pleasure of meeting a 17 yr old 4th degree BB.

_Don Flatt


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## Sylo (Feb 3, 2009)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> It's kind of funny to read a thread started by someone asking for opinions and then watch people including the original poster get insulted when people give their actual opinions.
> 
> In response to the one gentleman in the ATA who said they've never met a 5 year old BB. I haven't either but I have had the pleasure of trying to explain to 7 yr old students of my own why it's gonna take them at least 6 months to get a yellow belt from me and probably close to 10 for a jrBB even though they have a friend their age who got a BB in less than 2.
> 
> ...


 

Opinions and Insults are often confused with each other. Because, alot of the time.. when someone's "opinion" is not the same as another persons, its often then thought of as an insult. 

I haven't seen anything insulting about what was said.

Everything that has been said is valid. The OP wanted opinions on what the general concensus of ATA schools was with various martial artists that post here. Thats exactly what he got. You can't sugar coat everything as to not offend. Sometimes the blunt truth is the best way to go.

There are some positives to ATA if that will help matters..

1. engineered specifically for kids
2. gives kids motivation to keep progressing
3. great exercise if you put the effort into it
4. Lots of tournaments to compete in
5. Lots of people to potentially meet and become friends with


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## astrobiologist (Feb 3, 2009)

Agreed...  I don't think any of us responded with the point of slandering the ATA.  We were asked for our opinions and gave them.

If someone wants to know about a restaurant in my town, I'll tell them what I think; it may be good or it may be bad, depending on the restaurant.


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## Sylo (Feb 3, 2009)

astrobiologist said:


> Agreed... I don't think any of us responded with the point of slandering the ATA. We were asked for our opinions and gave them.
> 
> If someone wants to know about a restaurant in my town, I'll tell them what I think; it may be good or it may be bad, depending on the restaurant.


 

For example. If you asked me about Mcdonalds.. my review wouldn't be a positive one. Doesn't mean I am slandering them. Means they need to work harder to please "me" as the consumer if they want my business.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm on this one late and the OP seems to have received his sought after advice and made his decision.  In the event that he is still following this thread or that other ATA inquirers are reading it, I will say this.

The ATA offers pricey family oriented schools.  It is not geared towards the "hard core" trainier, though one can certainly train that way on their own.  Some schools are better than others.  Some are more focused on MA and SD than others.  

I understand that their sparring style is light contact with full hogu and that their tournaments are closed to ATA members.  This is neither good nor bad.  Want full contact with gear?  Go find a school that teaches WTF sparring and be done with it.  Want full contact with less gear?  Go find a kyokushin school and be done with it.  To those who don't like ATA sparring?  Be happy with what you're doing and be done with it.

Like any other martial art or martial arts organization, the individual instructor and school is of far greater importance than the generalities of the art or the organizations particulars.

I operate on the presupposition that 80% of everything is of poor quality.  Thus, 80% of all martial arts schools, regardless of org are of poor quality.  And by extension, *in theory*, 80% of all KKW, ITF, ATA, ITA, other org and independent schools would be of poor quality by that rule.  

I judge each school individually and not by its parent org.  

Honestly,the only thing that I have to say about the ATA in the negative is that they are expensive and have too many costs factored in on top of their monthlies.  That is *not* in any way, shape or form unique to the ATA, though due to the way that their organization is structure, you'd be hard pressed to find an ATA school that isn't this way, while other orgs tend to be more varried.  
One of the early posts said that the ATA views all students as quitting and emphasizes getting as much cash as possible from them.  Well, guess what?  The ATA and other schools that do this (many outside of the ATA have this view) are the symptom, not the problem.  

Part of the problem is the first few old school masters who sold out, for whatever reason, and shifted focus from teaching students to running a big business.  Once the public figured out that they could have blackbelts for their twelve year olds, they demanded it.  We, the martial arts instructors and school owners gave it to them like fools.  Now we're stuck with our own curse and use the ATA and other profit minded schools as our scapegoat.  

Shame on us.

Daniel


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## astrobiologist (Feb 3, 2009)

I can agree that I don't know about all ATA schools, all I know is about the ATA school that was near me, the students that came to me from that school, and what I've heard from others' experiences with ATA schools.  There may be some with instructors/operators who are focused more on the martial art than the money or the flash.  I really hope there are.  Like I said before though, if someone is looking for the flashy stuff or the gymnastics, than that is their choice, too.  

The ATA school that was in my area is now gone.  Overnight cheaters.  One day a bunch of parents showed up with their children in their uniforms and such, but the doors were locked, the building was empty, and there was no sign of the instructors.  That's pathetic.  

Like I said, the students who have come to me from that school have required a lot of fixing when it comes to their self-defense knowledge, most of which was rudimentry at best.  Their cardio was also pretty weak.  One guy, who was a 2nd dan through ATA, came in for one class and was more winded after my warm-up than my beginners.  He gave it his best though, which is awesome and I have respect for that.  I'm not saying ATA students are bad students or bad people.  I'm just saying the ones who attended the ATA school that was near me did not seem to get a strong martial arts education from that school.

I would love to hear some good stories about an ATA school.  Something to inspire me that the problem is on an individual school basis and not in the overall curriculum of the ATA.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 3, 2009)

I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.

Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it. 

That being said I am fortunate that my ATA school is not like many others. I have never heard my instructors cut down any of the other style schools in our region of Maine. However they are very harsh and straight-forward when rebuking other ATA schools in the area. They have been known to honestly and openly criticize 2 other ATA schools in our area. Those 2 schools are what all of you are talking about. Slop, slop, and more slop.

ATA physical conditioning is starting to come around. There are many obese and de-conditioned BB's and instructors than you can imagine. The ATA has recognized this as an organization wide problem and are going to be implementing fit testing similar to military standards. If you can't pass, you do not progress in rank. (This I really like). I may be new to TKD, but I've been a lifetime fitness nut.

I like the responses I have been given by all of you who have been frank. Thank you for your candor. The ATA has a multitude of problems, but they also do a lot of really good things for their students and their communities.

HM2PAC


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## Sylo (Feb 3, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.
> 
> Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it.
> 
> ...




Exactly, there are bad seeds everywhere. ATA just seems to have more of those than others, so they stick out more. Doesn't mean they are not everywhere. One thing ATA could do to improve its reputation, is split its adults and kids efforts into 2 different things. Watching people in their 30s and 40s twirling a plastic bo staff just seems silly to me. I mean, if you want to be a baton twirler in your spare time its a good way to learn.. but I just feel like that sort of stuff should be only open to the younger set or at least give the adults the option to opt out of it. I don't think any of the "flash" should be required, but there as an option if you want to participate. Somewhat like demo teams are handled in traditional schools (our school is too old school for demo teams, but I actually like the idea of demo teams.. as it draws attention to what we do in a positive way that the public can relate to. I guess you could say that the ATA is a BIG demo team. In a way)


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## HM2PAC (Feb 4, 2009)

Sylo wrote:


> One thing ATA could do to improve its reputation, is split its adults and kids efforts into 2 different things. Watching people in their 30s and 40s twirling a plastic bo staff just seems silly to me. I mean, if you want to be a baton twirler in your spare time its a good way to learn.. but I just feel like that sort of stuff should be only open to the younger set or at least give the adults the option to opt out of it. I don't think any of the "flash" should be required, but there as an option if you want to participate. Somewhat like demo teams are handled in traditional schools (our school is too old school for demo teams, but I actually like the idea of demo teams.. as it draws attention to what we do in a positive way that the public can relate to.



What you are describing as what you would do is EXACTLY what our school does. I haven't seen any plastic Bo Staves as of yet, but I'm sure they are out there. (As my wife and I buy our weapons, we have been buying white wax wood.) The kids (6 & 8) are still using the foam ones. I do orthopedics, and it's been time consuming just to keep my son out of plaster/slings for a full year.

The Demo team is just that. We got involved with demo as it was extra practice, and part of the autumn demonstration was our initial form "Songahm 1".


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## HM2PAC (Feb 4, 2009)

One more thing I forgot.....

The XMA stuff is all volunteer. No one has to do XMA. Our instructors recommend it as it requires the student to choreograph his/her own "form". I'll never do it myself, but I can see where that type of learning can be of benefit for a young person, or an adult for that matter.


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## terryl965 (Feb 4, 2009)

See this is where I differ from you, the XMA stuff is nothing but flash and really has no real value to SD principle behind Martial Arts. I can understand your thinking here but flash is just that flash.

The last thing is the Demo team what does that really do for you and your family and what are the extra cost involved in it if you do not mind sharing?


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> I will say that the vast majority of what I have seen in the ATA and about the ATA on the error-net is entertaining in a horrible way.
> 
> Over-all I am beginning to see it for what it is, and as there is no other viable alternative in my area, I go with it.
> 
> ...


 

I agree with most of what you're saying here.  The issue that I have is the part in your post that I've bolded.

How is this any different than what anyone else on here has said?  If your instructors openly criticize 2 other schools in the area that are crappy, then how is that any better than an instructor from another organization or style criticizing the ATA as a whole?

I agree in part with what Daniel is talking about with this...it's better to judge schools seperately than judging them as a group.  

However...

If a school is covered under an organization, and the organization has expectations that need to be met, and the schools meet those expectations, then it's the organization that I have the issue with, not the school.  To be an ATA school, you do things the ATA way.  The ATA way is what I don't like.  

And that's my opinion.

That being said, I do think that there are ATA schools out there that go against the grain, and it sounds like your school is one of those that does that.  But, schools like that are very, very few and far between within the ATA organization. 

The whole setback for having the blanket opinion that every ATA school is typical ATA is that there is the possibility that a good ATA school can be overlooked.  But, the odds of that happening are pretty slim, since your ATA school is the first that I've heard of that *isn't* typical ATA.

And, again, it's the *typical* part that I have the issue with.

Regarding what I was starting off with, I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion on any and every topic.  While I don't think I would openly criticize a local school as an owner and instructor of another school, which can be bad for business, your instructors are certainly entitled to their opinions.  The only difference between what they're saying and what many of the rest of us are saying is that they have an issue with individual schools....we have an issue with the organization as a whole, not solely because of the way individual ATA schools operate, but also because of how the organization is run and the policies in place.  There are simply too many schools to individually list that are typical ATA schools.  

It's just so much easier to single out the ATA schools that rise above "typical ATA".


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> Sylo wrote:
> 
> 
> What you are describing as what you would do is EXACTLY what our school does. I haven't seen any plastic Bo Staves as of yet, but I'm sure they are out there. (As my wife and I buy our weapons, we have been buying white wax wood.) The kids (6 & 8) are still using the foam ones. I do orthopedics, and it's been time consuming just to keep my son out of plaster/slings for a full year.
> ...


 
This goes back to the "not all schools are created...." you get the idea.

If you go to the ATA website and look at any of the hundreds of videos on there.. you will see plenty of adults and kids alike twirling plastic bo staffs, plastic light up nunchucks, light weight kama. Then, once your done with those take a look at the forms section. And you'll see some of the worst demonstration of forms ever seen anywhere. ATA doesn't do a good job hiding the problems the way other schools seem to be able to do. Its common knowledge that the ATA is well known for its lax training, and flash over self defense. I disagree with the statement of not getting anything out of the flash. There's something to learn in everything. It may not be all that great of a learning tool.. but it does take endurance and strength to do much of the things they do. However, one could argue you could take simpler steps and reach the same point in your training without needing to become a gymnast.

Oddly enough, given the chance 10-15 years ago when I was 13-14 years old.. if you showed me an ATA school and a traditional school side by side and what each had to offer.. I'd have chosen the ATA school no questions.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 4, 2009)

terryl965 asked:


> The last thing is the Demo team what does that really do for you and your family and what are the extra cost involved in it if you do not mind sharing?



No extra cost at all, other than time. What it did for our family at that time is exactly what I stated,.....it gave us an opportunity to have more instruction with our form. 

Brandon Lucas asked:


> How is this any different than what anyone else on here has said? If your instructors openly criticize 2 other schools in the area that are crappy, then how is that any better than an instructor from another organization or style criticizing the ATA as a whole?



They are in the same organization and are trying to correct a problem that they see. Our instructors are very aware of the ATA reputation and do not want others fostering the types of lax training standards that abound. The difference is they are not insulting other people outside of there own organization. They are chastising and correcting people in their own organization who need it. 

This was face to face at a BB testing with multiple schools. As it turned out only the 2 BB candidates from our school passed. Our instructors had held them back an extra 2 years (unheard of in ATA) because they did not look sharp. The other schools had the typical students that had run through the ranks and met the minimum requirements for everything. None of the other schools had anyone pass.

What I'm getting at is that no one here would accept anyone from the ATA criticizing any of your techniques, training methods, requirements, or business preactices. However it seems to be that everyone feels they have legitimate room to roam when it comes to making rude, insulting, erroneous, and disrespectful blanket statements about the ATA.

Some people have even made the statement that the ATA deserves insults because they have earned them.

Where in anyone's MA training is it that we are taught to insult anyone? 

I remember years ago I trained with Eugene Ho in Hawaii at Kong's Siu Lum Pai,....I can't imagine him or any of the instructors behaving poorly.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the _*exact same*_ criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:

Eight year old bb's
Lack of SD
Sparring that is unrealistic
BB's in two years or less
copious amounts of money and added fees for clubs.
BB's that can't fight.
BB's that aren't sharp in their technique and look like yellow belts

Is the ATA guilty of this? No more so than any other organization. I've seen plenty of KKW BB's that can't fight, got their BB in less than two years, are ten and under, and aren't sharp. And that's *my* org.! I've seen plenty of schools, some not even TKD, that have copious fees and such. 

Which brings me back to...

It isn't the org that matters, but the individual school, the individual instructor, and the dedication of the student.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the _*exact same*_ criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:
> 
> Eight year old bb's
> Lack of SD
> ...


 

I know for sure that I personally have never implied that ALL schools don't have problems. They do, ATA or not. Its just widly apparent because of the media and advertising methods the ATA uses that they are the biggest offenders of these practices. The one off non ATA schools are just that.. one offs. The ATA as an organization puts itself out there to be a flashy kids program. Thats what it is, and thats how it promotes itself. Nothing wrong with Songahm Tae Kwon Do. ATA is like the Wal-Mart of TKD, its your one stop shop and most people hate to admit they shop there. You can get what you need there, maybe in a round about way.

You can learn TKD at an ATA school, you can learn discipline, you can get in shape. You can do all the same things you could do at any other school, at an ATA school. Problem is.. your going to pay more for it, and your going to have to wade through all the junk to get to what your actually going for. It still boils down to what it is that YOU want out of your training.

All schools have ups and downs, and all organizations have ups and downs.

ATA was not designed as a serious rigorous martial arts program intended to teach one how to defend himself. The fundamentals are there, but the application of it is not taught. I'm VERY good friends with a 3rd degree black belt from the ATA organization and he will tell me that constantly that he does not regret his choice to attend ATA.. but he did have an awful hard time unlearning all the bad habits and lax training methods he picked up from all the years he spent in their schools. We've had ATA students transfer to the schools I have gone to in the past, and lets just say.. it was difficult for them to adjust to actually having to do something in class that required exerting any sort of effort. 

Its not the schools, its not not really even the instructors. Its the curriculum the ATA puts out there. You get exactly what you pay for.

If they want more martial artists to respect what they do. They need to man up and rewrite their curriculum so its more of a martial arts program and less of a merit badge contest.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> terryl965 asked:
> 
> 
> No extra cost at all, other than time. What it did for our family at that time is exactly what I stated,.....it gave us an opportunity to have more instruction with our form.
> ...


 
To be clear:

I'm not insulting anyone, and if I am, I sincerely appologize.

I don't agree with the ATA.  I just don't, and I won't change my opinion until the *org* itself gives me a reason to think otherwise.  I sincerely hope that they do, since I feel that the ATA organization gives TKD a bad name.

But, I don't have to be a member of the ATA to know that the organization is junk.  I practice TKD, which is the same TMA that the ATA teaches...so I'm not someone from another style of martial arts criticizing the ATA.  But, even if I were, just the fact that I'm a *martial artist* would allow me to read the B.S. meter from the organization.

Again, to be clear, I'm not singling out schools at this point...I'm talking about the ATA as the parent organization that dictates what is and is not instructed in the schools that belong to the organization.

I can't stand to see kiddie blackbelts running around with patches coming out of their ears, and their parents who think that Junior is going to grow up to be a valid martial artist using the material that they're learning.  These people have made my blackbelt that I've bled over for years worth next to nothing outside of my dojang.  To tell someone that I'm a blackbelt would make me a complete joke...not that I would share that info with just anyone, but even if I did, it wouldn't mean anything to them.

The ATA is *hugely* responsible for that.  Not that they're the only org that does this, or that TKD is the only art that this problem exists in.

The ATA copyrights their forms.  Not sure why this is done, except that no one can use an ATA form in open competition.  That tends to limit a student's experience, and does nothing to validate the martial art.  Closed tournements have their place, and they can be a good thing.  But it should be the student's choice to compete in an open or closed tournement.  Copyrighting the forms sure sounds like a good way to discourage anyone from competing in an open tournement.  Sure, they can't tell the students that they *can't* go out and compete, but they can control what they compete in, as far as representing the organization.

None of the ATA forms that I have ever seen demonstrated have shown any kind of power at all, and I've had several, several instructors demo forms.  I've been to quite a few ATA schools as well, and none of the students, all ranks, all ages, performed the forms with any kind of power or grace at all.  In fact, it barely looked like they were trying.  Now, had this been at 1 or 2 schools, I would just attribute it to that particular school.  But, I actually talked with 4 of the instructors that I have seen perform the forms, and they told me that they were taught that way, and that the ATA as a whole teaches the forms in this manner.

These are just a few of my gripes with the organization.  There are more, but I don't think it's wise to type 6 pages of negativity.

What I'm saying at this point is not insults.  It's fact.  These are things that are proven to be in the organization right now...coming from instructors who work *within* the organization.  It's my personal opinion that the ATA, in its current state, is not worth the time and effort to recommend a serious martial artist to.  It's a great organization for kids who don't need anything other than exercise and something to do with their time.  It's also great for adults who want to get a cardio workout, and it's great for meeting new people.  Self defense?  Not so much...but again, that's *my opinion*.  If I don't like the organization, then I don't like it.  And since I don't like the organization, if someone were to ask what everyone thinks of the ATA and if it's worth paying the money to go to class and for everything else under the sun the organization charges for, I'm not going to have very many good things to say.

Is it insulting?  It can be.  But I'm not intending on being insulting.  I'm giving my opinion of the *organization* as a *whole*.  If your school doesn't fit in this mold, then that's awesome!!  I have all the more respect for you and your school.

I truly wish that the ATA would start being a respectable organization that does not put the almight dollar before quality instruction.  But, please understand that I'm referring to the *ATA organization*, and not any 1 school in particular.  If your school does not have the issues that the rest of the ATA does, then great!!  Maybe your school can be the start of a change for the better.


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## just2kicku (Feb 4, 2009)

Well, I can' speak for all ATA schools, but there is one down the street from where I live and have watched thru the window a few times. What I saw was this, the owner (I'm guessing that from the stripes on his belt and million patches on his sleeve) behind the counter talking to two families with apps in his hand. The two black belt instructors running the class thru basics with their aems crossed walking around like the cocks of the walks, and the students looking like crap. The thing that got me is no one was correcting them! Come on, basics are your foundation for everything. If basics look like that then everything else you ever do in that art will look like crap. Granted, people these days don't want to stay in a horse for an hour and just work on one punch or one kick, but at least correct the students when their doing it wrong.

    Garbage in, garbage out. If it's just that school then so be it, but from what I've heard it's not. The problem is that they are not the only Mcdojo in our surrounding area.
     I was wearing my Kajukenbo t shirt one day getting something to drink and one of their black belts( I knew this because he was wearing his uniform and belt in the store) actually told me if I really wanted to learn how to fight I should come on down. It was a joke!! I could've stomped him but I said I'd think about it.

    I think they are teaching a false sense of security. That's my experience with ata and can honestly say that that particular school is not that good.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Unfortunately, HM2PAC, taekwondo currently seems to be the dump-on art for the rest of the MA world, and within TKD, the ATA has become the dump-on org. Never mind that other orgs and some independent schools are guilty of the _*exact same*_ criticisms aimed at the ATA. Here are a few:
> 
> Eight year old bb's
> Lack of SD
> ...


 
I know I stated this in the post that I just put up, but I just wanted to throw it out there again...

Your opinion is your opinion.  If your opinion is that the org isn't the problem, but rather the instructors, than that's, of course, your opinion, and is neither correct or incorrect.

Also, I'm not trying to change your opinion or anyone else's, so please don't misunderstand what I'm posting...just doing this more or less to show 2 of the many sides of the arguments.  This is pretty much a blanket statement, kind of a disclaimer of sorts...so I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.

With that said...

I disagree that the issue is individual schools and instructors.  If this were the case, then why would the ATA as an organization allow their name to be affiliated with poor instruction and high prices?  I could see one or two schools falling through the cracks, but there are far, far fewer schools that provide quality instruction than there are schools that provide poor instruction.

I've spoken with several instructors who advised me that they were teaching the cirriculum the way that the ATA wanted it to be taught, and have had a member of the ATA board of something-or-other sit in on classes to make sure the cirriculum was being taught "correctly".  The fact that the schools continue to be affiliated with the ATA means that they're doing, at the least, a satisifactory job in instructing the students.

The classes that I've seen...which, according to the instructors that I've sat in on and watched, were the same classes that they teach every day, no matter who is visiting the school...leave a bad taste in my mouth.  

I just can't justify saying the problem lies in the instructors in this case.  The problems are too widespread for it to be a coincidence that *that* many instructors are the issue.  They're being told they're teaching the standard that the ATA expects.

And what the ATA expects is far from what a serious martial artist should expect.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> With that said...
> 
> I disagree that the issue is individual schools and instructors. If this were the case, then why would the ATA as an organization allow their name to be affiliated with poor instruction and high prices? I could see one or two schools falling through the cracks, but there are far, far fewer schools that provide quality instruction than there are schools that provide poor instruction.


Allow me to clarify: What I meant was not that the issue is with individual schools and instructors so much as that it is the individual school or instructor that is important to the student.

In other words, if I am a hard training and dedicated student and I go to a good ATA school, it really doesn't matter if the rest of the ATA schools in my area are bad; the instruction I receive and the level of training that I do at that one school is what is important. 

Likewise, if I am a dedicated student, but go to a lousy ITF school, it doesn't matter if the remainder of the ITF schools in my area are superb or that I'm training hard: I'm still getting lousy training at that one school.

My point is that the org is no guarantee of good or bad training, though I do agree that the org tends to set a tone, for good or for ill.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Allow me to clarify: What I meant was not that the issue is with individual schools and instructors so much as that it is the individual school or instructor that is important to the student.
> 
> In other words, if I am a hard training and dedicated student and I go to a good ATA school, it really doesn't matter if the rest of the ATA schools in my area are bad; the instruction I receive and the level of training that I do at that one school is what is important.
> 
> ...


 

https://secure.ataonline.com/BB08/

Take a look at any one of these videos.

The stuff on their website represents ATA as a "whole". Not one particular school or instructor. The Entire organization rides behind what we see here.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them. 

Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting. 

If the ATA curriculum suits a student's needs, but the instruction is poor, then it doesn't really matter what the curriculum is.

If the ATA curriculum is suited to the student and the instruction is good, then the student is happy and really doen't care about the name of the org. To them, its karate and they're happy.

If the curriculum is not suited to the student's needs, but the instruction is good, then the issue of the org becomes more pertinant. Now you have a "good" school but not a good fit.

The only thing that _seems_ to be an accross the board ATA issue is the pricing structure and added costs for clubs and gear. These are built into the ATA system, whereas with a KKW school, they're entirely up to the school owners.

Not being an ATA member, I won't comment about the average quality of instruction or the average quality of the students.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them.
> 
> Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting.
> 
> ...


 

Thats the problem though. Everything that carries the "ATA" name carries this stuff with them whether they practice it or not. Potential martial arts students don't know what "we" know. So all they see is what is give to them via advertising and media. They look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD. Thats where I frown on the ATA.. 

If you don't practice the way the ATA operates.. why carry the name?


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, Sylo, but the individual kyu grade and even low dan student is generally not going to org. focused. They will be focused on what they encounter in that school. My point is that the quality of the instruction in the building they go to is what is important to them.
> 
> Keep in mind, I mean within the org. Meaning that the curriculum will be whatever the org is promoting.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I understand where you're coming from now.  I do agree with you there...the only problem with it that I have is that if a student is not going to worry about being affiliated with the ATA, or any other org, then what's the point of putting "ATA" on the door?

What you're saying is that, as far as the student is concerned, they're mainly looking for the quality of the instruction, as far as it applies to what they want out of the instruction.  That is true.  But what happens when they have to rely on what they're being taught in the aspect of self defense?  If they're receiving the typical instruction that is provided from ATA, they're not being told that they're not going to be provided the training to handle a real situation.  There are all kinds of ATA blackbelts out there right now that think they have the tools that they need...and that's not restrictive to the ATA...not by any means.  But since we're on the subject of ATA, that's one of the issues this organization seems to have.

What my point is that the organization backs up the instruction that is given.  And the vast, vast majority of the schools under the ATA are providing poor instruction, and lax technique.  Even on the link that Sylo provided....that's what the ATA *expects*.  That's what they put their stamp of approval on.  Nothing about that says "quality" to me...in any aspect of the word...quality of time spent, quality of instruction, quality of instruction for the money spent, quality of instruction for time spent, and quality of instruction for money and time spent.

That link is like me selling socks with holes in them to the public, with my name on the top of the sock.  For me to put my name on my product, that means that I've given my seal of approval.  If I put my name on socks that have holes in them, then that means that I'm approving the fact that these socks have holes in them, and thus won't be as effective as socks that don't have holes in them.  That doesn't mean that the socks won't work at all...they could keep your feet warm, but the holes aren't going to help that.

I know that this isn't just an issue with the ATA...all martial arts have their problems like this...and it comes from having something that's marketable in a modern society.  But, for TKD, ATA is, in my opinion, the problem org...not to say that KKW and ITF don't have their faults, but, after all, this is a thread regarding ATA....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Sylo said:


> Thats the problem though. Everything that carries the "ATA" name carries this stuff with them whether they practice it or not. Potential martial arts students don't know what "we" know. So all they see is what is give to them via advertising and media. They look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD. Thats where I frown on the ATA..
> 
> If you don't practice the way the ATA operates.. why carry the name?


 
Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer. 

Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.

Honestly though, how many perspective customers actually go to the ATA, WTF, ITF (aren't there like three different ones now?), Kukkiwon, or ITA websites? They go to "the local karate school" and whatever they've got, that's what the customers get. And if there's more than one school in the local area, they'll go visit them and see who's after school and summer camp program is the best. If all things are equal, they go where their kids friends are or to the place that looks the most professional. They don't know enough to ask the kinds of questions that you or I would.

As for people thinking that what the ATA offers is taekwondo, well... it is. Just as ITF and KKW are. Besides, the only people who will "look at these videos and think that THIS is TKD" are not informed enough to know what they're even looking at. You and I see technique and style specific things in these videos. The novice or beginner sees people in gis with belts jumping around doing karate. That is it. They know only that they can't do what is pictured.

Look, the ATA has a very comprehensive program, meaning that every aspect is codified, unlike the Kukkiwon that has a very basic program and says, 'round it out with whatever you feel like.' The ATA has built in BBC, leadership clubs, little ninja/dragon/tiger/munchkin programs, martial weapons, and optional XMA. Join the org, get the curriculum. If you sign up, get your BB, and find that you want something a little more traditional or different, go on and branch out. 

But their curriculum _is_ their curriculum and you may not like it, but they aint dummies. Their curriculum is one that attracts people and keeps them happy through BB and brings the org good income. Organizations are in business to stay in business. Their formula works well for them. Not my cup of tea, but it is the cup of tea of thousands of kids all over the US.

It is their brand of taekwondo. It is their niche. ITF fills a different niche and the KKW fills a different niche. The independents and other smaller orgs also have their respective niches. The pie is plenty big. We can all eat at the same table.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> Ok, I understand where you're coming from now. I do agree with you there...the only problem with it that I have is that if a student is not going to worry about being affiliated with the ATA, or any other org, then what's the point of putting "ATA" on the door?
> 
> What you're saying is that, as far as the student is concerned, they're mainly looking for the quality of the instruction, as far as it applies to what they want out of the instruction. That is true. But what happens when they have to rely on what they're being taught in the aspect of self defense? If they're receiving the typical instruction that is provided from ATA, they're not being told that they're not going to be provided the training to handle a real situation. There are all kinds of ATA blackbelts out there right now that think they have the tools that they need...and that's not restrictive to the ATA...not by any means. But since we're on the subject of ATA, that's one of the issues this organization seems to have.
> 
> ...


Maybe people should do as much research when they choose a martial arts school for their kids as they do when buying a television. 

Think about it. They watch the sales for weeks, sometimes months. They go to various places and look at several products at each place, comparing price and quality. Then they dicker around with the clerk over price and accessories. Then they buy.

But for the MA school the only quesitons are: is it close, do they pick up and drop off, how late do they keep my kid, how long to black belt, and how much will it cost? 

How about a background check on the school via the better business bureau? Google the school? Read the reviews on the web based area yellow pages that always come up when you Google a school? Check the instructor's credentials via Kukkiwon (if applicable)? If the instructor is a sex offender, a scam artists, or fraudulent in some way, you'd think they'd want to know.

As long as people are purposefully ignorant, we will have all of the problems you just described, regardless of the orgs involved. 

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer.
> 
> Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.
> 
> ...


 
I think thats what I wanted to get across all along. 

People like different things. Someone asked what we thought of ATA and its practices as a whole. I don't care for them. Its not my thing. I have my reasons, and I feel my reasons are valid. I don't want any part of an organization that treats martial arts like a power rangers fan club. Thats just how ATA feels to me. Like a cheap knock off at a more expensive price. Lets take the TKD that everyone teaches.. add some patches, some cool looking belts, throw in a few extra clubs and teams to be on, create our own tourney circuit that only members can enter, and lets let people swing around glow in the dark/light up weapons and charge double to triple what people pay for the schools that don't have our fluff. I guess its good marketing and business. People can be extremely gullible.

Bottom line, if ATA fits your needs.. whatever those are. Go there. I won't respect you any less as a martial artist as long as you can live up to your training and show me that your not a part of the problem. I have tons of ATA friends, and some of them are REALLY good.. sometimes the student can overcome. But if given the choice.. I wouldn't choose an ATA school over another school.


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Maybe people should do as much research when they choose a martial arts school for their kids as they do when buying a television.
> 
> Think about it. They watch the sales for weeks, sometimes months. They go to various places and look at several products at each place, comparing price and quality. Then they dicker around with the clerk over price and accessories. Then they buy.
> 
> ...


 

True.

I just feel like the ATA exploits and abuses this ignorance. They know people will buy it, so why not sell it?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Sylo said:


> True.
> 
> I just feel like the ATA exploits and abuses this ignorance. They know people will buy it, so why not sell it?


Why not indeed?  

I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that they exploit and abuse this ignorance though.  I think that they did a very good job of figuring out their market.

Now, being a fully enclosed system that has a great deal of control over the individual schools, they are as an org, more directly responsible for their schools' problems, unlike the KKW which is essentially a certification entity.  The complaints that people make about the KKW not policing their schools actually make more sense in the ATA, mainly because the ATA has a greater ability to do so.

Once again, I'll refrain from making any comments about the quality of schools or instructors, due to the fact that I've never trained in an ATA school.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now you're into a matter of matching product to customer.
> 
> Most taekwondo schools, regardless of org, are family oriented schools. As an org, the ATA has focused on this market.
> 
> ...


 
Again, I have to disagree here.  Nowhere in the ATA literature does it say that it is marketed specifically for kids, or for anyone else in particular.

I still say that if the ATA wasn't ok with the quality of instruction, they wouldn't have their name on it.

If it's the individual school that's providing watered-down instruction, then shame on the instructors.  If it's the organization as a whole that's promoting watered-down instruction, then shame on them.

The bottom line is that people need to know what they're getting into...not everyone is aware of what a martial art will look like that is designed for SD, and there have been quite a few people that I know that ranked up in ATA that genuinely thought that spending an hour class doing windmill punches would help them protect themselves.  If the school is there to provide SD instruction, then the cirriculum needs to change.  If it's not there to provide SD instruction, then it should be clear as to what it actually *does* offer.


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## dancingalone (Feb 4, 2009)

In other news, I just read that the ATA now has weekly online classes for the Keysi Fighting Method.  I dunno, this just seems like a money grab at this point.  The little I know about KFM makes me think the core concepts in the system are 180 degrees opposite from taekwondo.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> In other news, I just read that the ATA now has weekly online classes for the Keysi Fighting Method. I dunno, this just seems like a money grab at this point. The little I know about KFM makes me think the core concepts in the system are 180 degrees opposite from taekwondo.


 
This makes me laugh.  

Weekly *online* classes??

What else are they going to start offering, phone consultation for Krav Maga?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh jeez.  I saw an ad for this in Blackbelt magazine, touting it as "the fighting style of the Dark Knight."  Its pretty bad when they can't even name a nonfictional person who actually practices the art.  Needless to say, it was home video instruction.  No, it wasn't ATA.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Oh jeez. I saw an ad for this in Blackbelt magazine, touting it as "the fighting style of the Dark Knight." Its pretty bad when they can't even name a nonfictional person who actually practices the art. Needless to say, it was home video instruction. No, it wasn't ATA.
> 
> Daniel


 
And that pretty much drives my point home.  The ATA is willing to charge for weekly online classes to teach a martial art that a movie made famous...and little else is known about it.

Seriously...it's all about the $$.  They don't care about providing anything of quality, otherwise, they would, at the very, very least, conduct a seminar with a living, breathing, flesh and blood instructor who the students could ask questions.  It's something else they can get a buck for, so that's what they're doing.

How am I supposed to be ok with this?  Seriously?  People are actually going to do this and think that they're getting something legit.  I'm willing to bet that you could earn rank in Keysi this way....at least, through the ATA anyway...

/facepalm


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## dancingalone (Feb 4, 2009)

Apparently, it's not an official ATA offering yet, but it's sold in one of the ATA top leader's schools, likely as a test product.  They already DO have XMA and Krav Maga, so it's not an unlikely step to sell another system like KFM too.  

I dunno.  Something like what the ITA is doing with Hanmudo makes sense to me, considering the somewhat overlapping heritage TKD and hapkido have with one another.  Grafting on Krav Maga or KFM into taekwondo just seems wrong to me.  What's next, Wing Chun streamed to your digital cable box?


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Apparently, it's not an official ATA offering yet, but it's sold in one of the ATA top leader's schools, likely as a test product. They already DO have XMA and Krav Maga, so it's not an unlikely step to sell another system like KFM too.
> 
> I dunno. Something like what the ITA is doing with Hanmudo makes sense to me, considering the somewhat overlapping heritage TKD and hapkido have with one another. Grafting on Krav Maga or KFM into taekwondo just seems wrong to me. What's next, Wing Chun streamed to your digital cable box?


 
I was seriously kidding about the whole Krav Maga thing.  I honestly didn't see that one coming.

ATA just moved down a couple hundred more notches IMO, if that's even possible.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> Again, I have to disagree here. Nowhere in the ATA literature does it say that it is marketed specifically for kids, or for anyone else in particular.


Actually, their website says that they provide an enjoyable environment that people of all ages can participate in.  They also term themselves leaders in the martial arts *industry*.  Translation to any intelligent person is, broad customer base.  Perusing the website I found this:

There are programs for all ages and abilities the ATA utilizes in its education of Taekwondo: 
Tiny Tigers Program- ages 2 to 6 years old
Karate for Kids Program- ages 7 to 13 years old
Black Belt Academy Program- adults
Protech Training Weapons Program
ATA Xtreme
This is a very slick website (compliment to the website) and is a marketer's dream.  



BrandonLucas said:


> I still say that if the ATA wasn't ok with the quality of instruction, they wouldn't have their name on it.
> 
> If it's the individual school that's providing watered-down instruction, then shame on the instructors. If it's the organization as a whole that's promoting watered-down instruction, then shame on them.


Agree 100%.  As a closed org, they are much more directly responsible for the quality, curriculum, and conduct of their member schools.



BrandonLucas said:


> The bottom line is that people need to know what they're getting into...not everyone is aware of what a martial art will look like that is designed for SD, and there have been quite a few people that I know that ranked up in ATA that genuinely thought that spending an hour class doing windmill punches would help them protect themselves. If the school is there to provide SD instruction, then the cirriculum needs to change. If it's not there to provide SD instruction, then it should be clear as to what it actually *does* offer.


The info is out there.  People need only look.  If I were plunking down the equivalent of a car payment for two kids, I'd be doing research for a couple of months.  I'd be watching classes.  I'd be looking at all of the schools in my area.  How many people do this?

Even my research was pretty shallow when I picked my current school, but I also had a good idea of what I was looking at when I went in.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> And that pretty much drives my point home. The ATA is willing to charge for weekly online classes to teach a martial art that a movie made famous...and little else is known about it.
> 
> Seriously...it's all about the $$. They don't care about providing anything of quality, otherwise, they would, at the very, very least, conduct a seminar with a living, breathing, flesh and blood instructor who the students could ask questions. It's something else they can get a buck for, so that's what they're doing.
> 
> ...


Ah, come on now; they had to do something; University of Phoenix was cutting into the biz.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

I would just like to note, that I am glad that we are able to have meaningful and adult conversation on a subject without anyone getting mad or angry over difference of opinion.  You can't learn that in a school no matter what org its in.

Back to the subject at hand though.

I feel that Songahm TKD is a valid style of TKD/martial arts. I do not feel like anyone should feel ashamed for learning it. I feel that the ATA as an organization is not anything I want to be involved in (too bad I can't compete in their tournaments). By opening an ATA school the owner would be required (I'm sure alot of them don't) to follow ALL of ATA's standards and practices. As a subsidary of a parent company a business should adopt everything that the parent company has stated as part of the business. The minute a school paints "ATA" on the door and starts handing out ATA logoed gi's, they've lumped themselves in with everything the ATA represents and advertises. It doesn't matter what they teach or how they teach it. ATA as an organization has trumped that. ATA has become the style. Your no longer a songahm practicioner, you are an ATA member. I bet they even have picture ID's. 

The truth is, the general public likes to hold on to something. They like being a part of a team/group. The ATA gives them this and more. Its not about the TKD, its not about the instruction. Its the reason why the "black belt" has become so menial. Everyone has one, thanks to the ATA. I just try to remember that I am seperated from the ATA and my rank does not = ATA rank equivalency. The ATA organization will have to do some changing to get me to give them a second glance. I see the rich man's TKD school, where training is left at the door in exchange for patches, and high fives. Thats what it eminates and thats all I see on the outside. 

I've checked out a few ATA schools, and they all had the same response to my questions...

"We'd be happy to have you sit in on a class, we offer kids and family packages at competitive prices."

What about the TKD? Is that included?


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

this is brilliance.






camo belt test.

no they never touch each other in sparring, and yes the first thing they do is break rebreakable boards while wearing full foot protection..

yes, they are kids.. but geez.. how much do you have to water it down before its not even martial arts anymore.






yes it gets better....

a bit older this time, still geared and still not making any contact. I don't even know how you could possibly work on techniques like this.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 4, 2009)

The testing in ATA is the biggest thing I have a gripe with.

1. Non-Contact sparring. Enough said, it's pansy. (Yes I realize that was insulting).
2. Board breaking. (The re-breakable boards are really tough, I bench 300+, but the boards are tough.) I just don't get the board breaking. It's great for demo's, but other than that......???
3. Regurgitating a form you've only learned 8 weeks prior. 
4. Breaking with sparring gear on. Right now this is only recommended. My instructors already know that if it ever becomes mandatory that my family is out of there. That is my line in the sand. I do believe that board holders should wear head gear and hand gear, but for the person breaking?


Children in the 4-7 y/o range just do not have the motor development to execute much of anything properly. At 8 they are getting there.

That being said, I think that 4-8 y/o's that are in MA's have a leg up so to speak over their non-MA peers. But to make them BB's? I can't stomach it.


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## Sylo (Feb 4, 2009)

HM2PAC said:


> The testing in ATA is the biggest thing I have a gripe with.
> 
> 1. Non-Contact sparring. Enough said, it's pansy. (Yes I realize that was insulting).
> 2. Board breaking. (The re-breakable boards are really tough, I bench 300+, but the boards are tough.) I just don't get the board breaking. It's great for demo's, but other than that......???
> ...




Right, well with the board breaking. I wasn't so much commenting on the type of board as to the fact that it was done first.. (or at least it looks that way). I also thought there was a bit too much "coaching" by the instructor. I mean, if your testing you should know how to do whatever it is your doing by now. I enjoyed how he stated that "We aren't just giving the belt to you".  The footgear in order to avoid injury was silly imo. If your too young to kick a board properly without hurting your foot.. whats going to happen when you have to kick flesh and bone? 

Sparring at that age.. well exactly who will they hurt that little? Give them a little bit of contact to work with. I can understand "pulling" moves as a way to learn control... but just kicking in the air with at least a foot away? Whats that teaching them? To hyperextend their legs? The Teacher again asks the "parents" to clap and cheer, and even tells the testers to "yell" if they someone to pay attention to them. So the parents are clapping and our testers kick at the air for what 30 secs?

As I said before.. the "content" of whats being taught is fine. Its the way its applied thats the problem. I bet this school has a close to 100 a month or more fee plus all the other applicable gear and test fees. Man they sure are getting there money's worth. I hate to see the black belt test.


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## HM2PAC (Feb 4, 2009)

The whole "Non-Contact Sparring" thing is what I still don't understand. It *ONLY* goes on at testing. All other times the sparring in class is light contact or full contact. And the non-contact stuff.......*ALL BELTS*. It is obviously meant for show and is not meant to be a true representation of TKD. The BB's are pretty good at getting really close, but I would rather see the flesh pressed a little myself.

Children in sparring gear.....just as fun to watch as kids in football gear, hockey gear, or baseball......bobbleheads.

Get this......

The boards are almost impossible to break with pads on. Pads work....they negate energy. It's mind-blowing really.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 4, 2009)

Sylo said:


> this is brilliance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The only thing I can really say here is anyone thinking of joining the ATA should be shown videos like these.

If this looks like your kind of thing, then by all means, go for it.  

What I regret is that there are still people out there...i.e. many of the kids and instructors in the videos....that think this method of learning a martial art will help them.  

I seriously have no gripe at all about the material covered.  I can see how it is based in TKD...pretty loosely based, but it's there...but at least the cirriculum itself wouldn't be a bad idea to learn....if you could find someone to teach it with any kind of discipline.

Kids aren't going to understand why their spinning side kick isn't effective against a live, aggressive opponnent who isn't afraid to hit and be hit.

And that's where I have to draw the line.  The whole point of martial arts is to learn how to defend yourself in a compentant manner.  If people continue to pull the wool over kids eyes and tell them it's ok to never make contact when punching and kicking, then the kids are going to be in a lot of trouble if the need should ever arise to defend themselves or others.

It's like going to cullinary school to learn how to make exquisite food, but only being allowed to prepare grilled cheese sandwiches.  What's the point in that?


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

Any ATA guys out there? Would be cool to get the perspective of some long time ATA students that post here.


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## terryl965 (Feb 5, 2009)

Sylo said:


> Any ATA guys out there? Would be cool to get the perspective of some long time ATA students that post here.


 
I would agree


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> The only thing I can really say here is anyone thinking of joining the ATA should be shown videos like these.
> 
> If this looks like your kind of thing, then by all means, go for it.
> 
> ...


And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school.  Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.

I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area.  At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality.  Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area.  Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.  

Just to clarify, I'm not slaming chains or slick advertising.  There are some very fine chain schools in the area and some fine schools with strong marketing.  That just happened to be the common thread between the bad eggs.

My point is that none of these schools were ATA schools and the SD curriculum was superior to what you'd see in the ATA curriculum.  The problem was that it was taught so poorly that the students would have been better off at a good sport school with zero SD.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school. Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.
> 
> I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area. At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality. Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area. Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.
> 
> ...


 

I agree with this completely.

Our point was that, while this is true.

Where ATA = New York/California (the places you always hear about in the media)

The "Non ATA poorly instructed school" is more = to Idaho (the smaller lesser talked about state)

Its all over, but ATA is usually the one everyone hears and knows about because obviously its the huge conglomerate. Therefore it takes the most heat for it, regardless of what others are doing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Around my area, its all KKW/WTF, a few ITF, and a bunch of non-affiliated.  There is one, lone ITA school in Seat Pleasant Maryland, but that is a good distance from me.  A good number of "independents" who teach "karate" have their own curriculum that incorporates just enough TKD that they use the KKW for certification.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And this would be the difference between a good school and a poor school. Which is why I said earlier that it is the individual school and instructor that are important.
> 
> I have been to a number of TKD and karate schools in my area, none of them ATA; I don't think that there are any ATA in my area. At some of these schools, I have seen instruction that borders on criminal in its lack of quality. Yet these were schools in respectable organizations and sometimes with ties to respectable masters in the local area. Of course, these schools were all chains and all had the slickest literature and websites.
> 
> ...


 
If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.

If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters.  That much I can agree with.

The problem, though, is that 90% of the schools with ATA on their door have the same set of issues.  ATA, the organization, does nothing to help the steady decline of instruction for TKD...in fact, it does the opposite by adding to it.  

So, what I'm saying here, is that it's true that there are schools of all makes, models, types, brands, etc. that have poor instruction and cirriculum.  But the ATA seems to be at the head of the class in this regard, if they're not the leader of the pack.

IMO, if the ATA were to fold, you would see a large, large portion of the problems and issues that TKD has float away like a piece of shipwrecked debris. 

In regards to what I was saying as far as it all depending on what you're looking for...

If someone is looking for hardcore training, and all that is available are ATA schools, (which seem to pop up all over the place, very much like Wal-Mart like Sylo was comparing them to), then all they have to do is sit in on a class and see for themselves what they would and would not get out of attending class there.

However, if someone isn't sure of what they're looking for, but knows that they want to be involved in a serious martial art, all it takes is for the slick-talking instructor/salesman to convince them that they've come to the right place.  So, now the person who was looking for something that would benefit them in the aspect of SD are unknowingly paying for a service that just won't benefit them much at all.

Now, I do agree that it's up to the individual to research what they want to pay for...but it's also up to the school to be upfront about the services that they offer.  I wouldn't expect for an ATA instructor to tell me that the school sucks, and isn't what I'm looking for...

IMO, the best practice for this would be that what the student is looking for should either be volunteered by the student, or should be asked by the instructor.  If the student isn't sure of what they're looking for, then the instructor should be up front about what *is* offered, and what the student should expect to learn from attending the school, and what would be expected of them.

I don't think that this is being done with any degree of truthfulness on the ATA organization's part.  Like you said, they have slick advertising that misdirects potential students to think that they're getting quality instruction...when in reality, if the potential student were able to compare an ATA class to another TKD class that actually has live training, then they would be able to see the difference.

The problem is that many people either aren't able to compare classes because they aren't near a different school or don't have access to literature or videos that would allow them to compare, or they simply don't know that they *should* compare the classes.  If the instructor is slick enough, then they can convince students of most anything regarding the instruction there.  Instructors are looked at as having the most knowledge of martial arts..beyond anyone else at the school...and they should.

But the ATA is good at making sure the students don't realize that their training may not be what they're looking for...and that the training that they're receiving is the best possible training they could get.


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.
> 
> If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters. That much I can agree with.
> 
> ...


 

You can go on the ATA website right now and read all about what they offer. Its kind of funny how they skirt around SD putting all the other stuff over it.


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## just2kicku (Feb 5, 2009)

Like Daniel said, people will reserach buying a tv more than researching a martial arts school. And Brandon I agree with you on the slick sales pitch. The problem is that 80 to 90 percent of you average joes will settle. Whether it be a car, tv, or buying something at a 7/11 for a little higher price rather than going 3 more blocks down the street to a grocery store where it's cheaper. It's convenient and the instructors/sales guy/owner knows this. I'm not sure how the org works but I'm sure the org takes their money from the top. So they play the percentages.
   The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else. 
    So the problem just perpetutates itself when some of these said students open up their own schools. Maybe they started out with good intentions and ciriculum but as each generation passes, the system gets more and more watered down. Kinda like the tell a friend game, by the time it gets back to you it's nothing like you started out with.


 Hmmm....... drink the kool-aid!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree with you here.
> 
> If we're talking about somebody walking in off the street and seeing a class full of kids jumping through hoops wearing blackbelts, then it's probably not going to matter whether ATA or ITF is painted on the door in big red letters. That much I can agree with.


Yes, we are on the same page here.



BrandonLucas said:


> The problem, though, is that 90% of the schools with ATA on their door have the same set of issues. ATA, the organization, does nothing to help the steady decline of instruction for TKD...in fact, it does the opposite by adding to it.
> 
> So, what I'm saying here, is that it's true that there are schools of all makes, models, types, brands, etc. that have poor instruction and cirriculum. But the ATA seems to be at the head of the class in this regard, if they're not the leader of the pack.
> 
> IMO, if the ATA were to fold, you would see a large, large portion of the problems and issues that TKD has float away like a piece of shipwrecked debris.


 
While you may be correct, I don't have any first hand experience with the ATA, which is why I refrain from going any further than I do in my posts regarding the organization.



BrandonLucas said:


> In regards to what I was saying as far as it all depending on what you're looking for...
> 
> If someone is looking for hardcore training, and all that is available are ATA schools, (which seem to pop up all over the place, very much like Wal-Mart like Sylo was comparing them to), then all they have to do is sit in on a class and see for themselves what they would and would not get out of attending class there.


I would agree with you, though my area seems to be devoid of ATA schools.



BrandonLucas said:


> However, if someone isn't sure of what they're looking for, but knows that they want to be involved in a serious martial art, all it takes is for the slick-talking instructor/salesman to convince them that they've come to the right place. So, now the person who was looking for something that would benefit them in the aspect of SD are unknowingly paying for a service that just won't benefit them much at all.


 
Yes, this is true, though that is not ATA specific. There are schools like this in my area, just not ATA.



BrandonLucas said:


> Now, I do agree that it's up to the individual to research what they want to pay for...but it's also up to the school to be upfront about the services that they offer. I wouldn't expect for an ATA instructor to tell me that the school sucks, and isn't what I'm looking for...
> 
> IMO, the best practice for this would be that what the student is looking for should either be volunteered by the student, or should be asked by the instructor. If the student isn't sure of what they're looking for, then the instructor should be up front about what *is* offered, and what the student should expect to learn from attending the school, and what would be expected of them.


100% agreement here.



BrandonLucas said:


> I don't think that this is being done with any degree of truthfulness on the ATA organization's part. Like you said, they have slick advertising that misdirects potential students to think that they're getting quality instruction...when in reality, if the potential student were able to compare an ATA class to another TKD class that actually has live training, then they would be able to see the difference.
> 
> The problem is that many people either aren't able to compare classes because they aren't near a different school or don't have access to literature or videos that would allow them to compare, or they simply don't know that they *should* compare the classes. If the instructor is slick enough, then they can convince students of most anything regarding the instruction there. Instructors are looked at as having the most knowledge of martial arts..beyond anyone else at the school...and they should.


Again, I agree with you, but I also feel that this is contributed to by what amounts to intentional ingnorance on the part of the consumer. Keep in mind that most consumers in the US equate flashy patches and belts with quality. That's why Britney Spears and Madonna have careers and why WWE has been able to survive for decades in spite of predetermined outcomes in matches.



BrandonLucas said:


> But the ATA is good at making sure the students don't realize that their training may not be what they're looking for...and that the training that they're receiving is the best possible training they could get.


Of course. The organization, like any organization, is in business to stay in business. Their job is to tell you how great their product is and to support their schools.

I place this responsibility on the individual school owners. Personal integrity should not go out the window just because the owner is affiliated with the ATA. 

It might be a fairer statement to say that the ATA's *structure* is more attractive to the money oriented school owner who's more concerned with selling a product than with teaching students. Such individuals will gravitate to the ATA because their business model is, quite honestly, very effective and has been virtually cloned by every McDojo in existence. 

I can't really blame the ATA for doing a good job in making their business model, though I do hold them responsible for policing their member schools.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Like Daniel said, people will reserach buying a tv more than researching a martial arts school. And Brandon I agree with you on the slick sales pitch. The problem is that 80 to 90 percent of you average joes will settle. Whether it be a car, tv, or buying something at a 7/11 for a little higher price rather than going 3 more blocks down the street to a grocery store where it's cheaper. It's convenient and the instructors/sales guy/owner knows this. I'm not sure how the org works but I'm sure the org takes their money from the top. So they play the percentages.
> The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else.
> So the problem just perpetutates itself when some of these said students open up their own schools. Maybe they started out with good intentions and ciriculum but as each generation passes, the system gets more and more watered down. Kinda like the tell a friend game, by the time it gets back to you it's nothing like you started out with.
> 
> ...


 

I believe this is how it happens....

ATA student becomes black belt.....

ATA students pays fees and whatever is required to become instructor since all of this is "in house" with ATA. He can't get certified by anyone but the ATA.

ATA (now instructor) opens up school, he may very well be a decent martial artist and know his songahm. However, he also has to follow all of the practices that the ATA gives him, as a part of being an "ATA" school. 

So, because of this.. You SHOULD be able to step into any ATA school in the country and get almost the identical training. Because they are "supposed" to be following all of the ATA's guidelines. They may adopt some of their own, but they would still need to follow all of the ATA's in order to maintain the school. 

What does this mean? It means, that the ATA as a org is responsible for the laxness of its schools, because they set it up that way. Its meant to be a money machine. They use key words, and excellent marketing to market the "product" to an audience that happens to be pretty broad. They don't want people interested in martial arts like "us" they want people who are easily swayed. They don't want you to ask questions.

I wouldn't mind learning Songham TKD, and I wouldn't even mind learning it from someone who learned it in an ATA school. I just don't want to be taught it the "ATA" way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

In my last post where I said...


Daniel Sullivan said:


> It might be a fairer statement to say that the ATA's *structure* is more attractive to the money oriented school owner who's more concerned with selling a product than with teaching students. Such individuals will gravitate to the ATA because their business model is, quite honestly, very effective and has been virtually cloned by every McDojo in existence.


... this ...


just2kicku said:


> So they play the percentages.
> The problem is once signed up they've got you, they put you in an enclosure with their ata only tourneys and seminars and camps, where you only associate with other ata members who will tell you how great the org is and you really believe it. they start thinking that ata is the most effective system out there because the org limits their exposure to everyone else.


... is what I was talking about. It is this aspect of the ATA that appeals to the entrepreneur and the style over substance school owner who is in it for the money. 

Remember, the entrepreneur is one who sees the opportunity and takes advantage of it for profit. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but profit should not be at the expense of a quality product, particularly when the pricing structure of the ATA is so expensive.

Daniel


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## just2kicku (Feb 5, 2009)

You can offer a quality product at a good price and still make money. But this is an age of "Cheaper is better". You take a product, make it cheaper and to a little lower standard but charge more for it, people will buy it. I think this is the philosophy of this certain org. Unfortunately, these are business people. They have short term goals of profit and the consumer gets the shaft. But because of the isolation within the org they get get away with it. Their students really have nothing to compare it to because they've been conditioned to think this is the greatest. It's always easier looking at it from the outside rather than within. If the instructor of a particular school "sees the light" he has a choice, he could leave the org. Wouldn't they still be his students? Or are they under contract with the org as well?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

It costs no more to teach well than it does to teach poorly.  Heck, it may cost less.

Daniel


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## bluekey88 (Feb 5, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> You can offer a quality product at a good price and still make money. But this is an age of "Cheaper is better". You take a product, make it cheaper and to a little lower standard but charge more for it, people will buy it. I think this is the philosophy of this certain org. Unfortunately, these are business people. They have short term goals of profit and the consumer gets the shaft. But because of the isolation within the org they get get away with it. Their students really have nothing to compare it to because they've been conditioned to think this is the greatest. It's always easier looking at it from the outside rather than within. If the instructor of a particular school "sees the light" he has a choice, he could leave the org. Wouldn't they still be his students? Or are they under contract with the org as well?


 
This "in house" thing also effects the instructors.  teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts.  Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know.  They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.

Peace,
Erik


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## just2kicku (Feb 5, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> This "in house" thing also effects the instructors.  teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts.  Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know.  They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik




 Wow, they really got you by the short hairs! Keep your students with blinders on and they'll follow you off a cliff.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> This "in house" thing also effects the instructors. teh ATA has trademarked their forms...and I bet all instructors are using trademarked/copywrited curriculum and have signed non-compete clauses in their teaching contracts. Basically, any instuctor that breaks with the org migh find it hard to actually teach what they know. They'd ahve to have teaching rank in some other art and then go and teach that...perhaps somewher else not near an ATA school.


Yet another reason that the ATA would appeal to less than scrupulous entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs with little martial training and lots of business sense.

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yet another reason that the ATA would appeal to less than scrupulous entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs with little martial training and lots of business sense.
> 
> Daniel


 
Lets see...

TKD
Blackbelt clubs
summer camp
adult camps
little dragons
closed tournaments
merit badges
weapons
MMA 
XMA

whats next?

fast food chain and feature films?


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 5, 2009)

Sylo said:


> Lets see...
> 
> TKD
> Blackbelt clubs
> ...


 
Online Ninja Class


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## just2kicku (Feb 5, 2009)

Sylo said:


> Lets see...
> 
> TKD
> Blackbelt clubs
> ...



   I think you forgot non contact grappling. Can't supersize it without that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

BrandonLucas said:


> Online Ninja Class


Nah. Come on, Brandon, we already _*know*_ the answer to this: Online Keysi Fighting Method so that you can fight like Batman.

Daniel

P.S. I wish I was kidding.


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## BrandonLucas (Feb 5, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nah. Come on, Brandon, we already _*know*_ the answer to this: Online Keysi Fighting Method so that you can fight like Batman.
> 
> Daniel
> 
> P.S. I wish I was kidding.


 
Well, for you information, there is a difference between Ninja training and Batman training...it's actually...

well...

crap, you're right.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 5, 2009)

Not only that, you can go to the KFM Online *University*! Take that, Phoenix!  Bam!  Pow!  Zowie!
http://www.keysikfm.com/pages/index.phphttp://www.keysikfm.com/pages/universitylearnmore.php#howmuch

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 5, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> I think you forgot non contact grappling. Can't supersize it without that.


 
MMA they have MMA


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## astrobiologist (Feb 5, 2009)

Phew...  I'm out of town for a few days and you people get through all of this...

Sounds like this thread has come around to a point of pretty good argument and discussion.  Kudos my friends!


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## just2kicku (Feb 5, 2009)

Hey did you guys see that ata even has their own visa? 
 Unbelievable


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Lots of organizations have that.  Heck, there's probably a WTF Visa.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Lots of organizations have that. Heck, there's probably a WTF Visa.
> 
> Daniel


 
Almost anyone can have a logo Visa or Mastercard.


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## just2kicku (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Lots of organizations have that. Heck, there's probably a WTF Visa.
> 
> Daniel


You're kidding right.... no really. I need to get out more


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

Hey, I wonder if an ATA visa gets you discounts on ATA gear and tuition, or maybe makes BBC and Leadership free.  If the interest rate is decent, for an ATA member it may be worth it.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Feb 6, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> You're kidding right.... no really. I need to get out more


 
Yes you need to get out more.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 6, 2009)

I realize that we're like nine pages into this thread and the OP hasn't been on for like six, but shouldn't this thread be in the Taekwondo section?

Daniel


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## Sylo (Feb 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I realize that we're like nine pages into this thread and the OP hasn't been on for like six, but shouldn't this thread be in the Taekwondo section?
> 
> Daniel


 

I was thinking that about 8 pages ago.


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