# Development of Modern Arnis in the Philppines and in the US



## Dieter (Jan 6, 2008)

Hi,

I have moved it to a new topic, because I think its a good one and otherwise it may bee "hidden" in the other thread.

Regards

Dieter



> Originally Posted by *Rich Parsons*
> 
> 
> _But a good discourse of what happened in the PI/RP versus NA/EC would be good for a new thread. _


 
OK, good point.

Let me jump in here.
I have trained with lots of the masters including Ernesto and Roberto Presas in the Philippines in the 80s, I had been training with GM Remy since 1994 and later with his American students, mainly Dan Anderson and Bram Frank and a little with Tim Hartman and some others..
Since 2003 I have been training with almost all of the Filipino Modern Arnis Masters in the Philippines and had them over in my house in Germany and teaching seminars, namely Roland Dantes, Bambit Dulay, Cristino Vasquez, Rodel Dagooc, Rene Tongson and Jerry Dela Cruz. 
I had a short training with Vic Sanchez in the Philippines too. I do not want to show of I only want to make clear,that I think I know  what I am talking about.

Things are not very easy to judge.

Clearly said, of course the Modern Arnis of GM Remy mid of the 70s was not as complex and intricate as it was at the end hf his life. Many things changed as he changed. Some things stayed the same and some became different techniques to the same names. Because he changed and always learned new things, that he incorporated into his Modern Arnis. 
To some people he showed different things than to others. Like Bram was interested in blades, so Remy showed him and Kelly more blade applications where Dan for example was more interested in the stick, at least his first 20 Modern Arnis years .
To my knowledge Rocky Paswick got a very different training from GM Remy in the 70s as for example Jeff Delaney who started MA in 94. (Just a name, put any persons name who started in the mid 90s here. No "Delaney bashing" intended) GM teaching methods were different and Rocky learned one to one and Jeff more in seminars and camps.

What I mean here is, that already in the US, different persons got different training and different Modern Arnis for different reasons. Be it due to the different time, they were learning, the different situation, that GM Remy was available for them or be it different personal interest.


And then, in the last years another fact was added: GM Remy was not there any more. So from being a Modern Arnis student/practitioner/master under GM Remy while he was still alive, an own identity had/has/will develop, as Dan had recently described it in another thread. 
This is a normal procedure, that when your teacher is not there any more, your focus becomes a different one. Tim oriented himself to Balintawak, Master Buot, Dan refined his MA80, Bram concentrated on his CSSD/SC and knife design and combat application and so on. Some concentrate to preserve what they have been taught, others move on and create different and new techniques/styles/concepts and drills.
I for example, try to learn from different persons from all phases of the Professor, to have a well rounded overlook over all of his Modern Arnis and not only over a certain period, and I also look for new developments, because Modern for me is not static, but being continuously researching and discovering. 

All is good and ok. 
I only wanted do describe, that 
A: 
during GM Remys active time, there were already people, who got different things than others. So their Modern Arnis was not necessarily the same as the Modern Arnis of others. 
And 
B:
than after his death, the development of people and styles moved into different directions. 

And this is 6 yeas after GM Remys leaving.


Now if you add another 20 years, where will all those people be ans would they still be very similar in their approaches to Modern Arnis?

This is exactly the situation, when you look at Modern Arnis in the Philippines.

People had trained with GM Remy for years and in 1975 he left them. 
Now the same process happened. Some continued to train with themselves (Jerry Dela Cruz and Rodel Dagooc), some trained with other Modern Arnis masters like Cristino Vasquez and GM Rene Tongson who continued to train with Ernesto and Roberto Presas ands some trained with other masters like Vic Sanchez. All ok, nothing wrong.

And of course, they also went through phases, that things they had learned from GM Remy became their own and that they started to develop their own way of Modern Arnis on the base what they had learned and when they moved on. Like Christino Vasquez founded his Ipit Pilipit, Jerry Dela Cruz his Arnis Cruzada and also Rodel Dagooc it teaching his version of Modern Arnis, even though he did not choose another name for it.

Then GM Remy returned end of the 90s to the Philippines and especially Bambit Dulay trained a lot with him and learned also the "new" Modern Arnis and Tapi-Tapi directly from GM Remy.


So, to come to an end: Of course, you do not find a lot of the Modern Anris of the 90s Remy Presas style in the Philippines, because there are not many masters, who can teach that specific version. It is there and being taught, but not as widespread as in the US.
But you find a lot of Modern Arnis, that has older roots and that whose masters made it their own and formed new things out of that, just as GM Remy has done it. And exactly the same will also happen in the US and in Europe, because this is what we like with Modern Arnis: it is modern and it is flexible. It never stays the same. Only, that now, not only one person is the the center and the "engine" of Modern Arnis, but that this is done by many people. This way, Modern Arnis will never die but also, it will constantly evolve and change over the years.

Regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis
 		 	 		 		 		 		 		 		 			 				__________________


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey Dieter nice post and oh so true!  Anyone who practiced Modern Arnis was influenced by the time frame in which they were practicing, their closeness to the Professor or lack there of and what they wanted or he showed them.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Dieter nice post and oh so true!  Anyone who practiced Modern Arnis was influenced by the time frame in which they were practicing, their closeness to the Professor or lack there of and what they wanted or he showed them.



Forgive me as I my ignorance of Modern Arnis is about to glow in broad neon lights here, but is Modern Arnis (as an art and it's foundational curiculum) somehow different when learned directly from GM Presas than it would be learning from each/any single one of GM Presas' instructor-level black belts individually, from an given era of GM Presas' instruction?  Basically, I am trying to figure out if Modern Arnis is an evolving/eclectic style that is influenced by each master (ala JKD in theory) or if it is set in one particular way as "the traditional way".

Thanks,
Gary


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Forgive me as I my ignorance of Modern Arnis is about to glow in broad neon lights here, but is Modern Arnis (as an art and it's foundational curiculum) somehow different when learned directly from GM Presas than it would be learning from each/any single one of GM Presas' instructor-level black belts individually, from an given era of GM Presas' instruction? Basically, I am trying to figure out if Modern Arnis is an evolving/eclectic style that is influenced by each master (ala JKD in theory) or if it is set in one particular way as "the traditional way".
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary


 
Hey Gary I would say the former in that it is a Modern Eclectic method that is continually evolving.  Some people may only teach what the Professor did but many Guro's have or are adding things as they grow.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Gary I would say the former in that it is a Modern Eclectic method that is continually evolving.  Some people may only teach what the Professor did but many Guro's have or are adding things as they grow.



Thanks Brian.  As far as standard curriculum goes though, is there a knowledge base that is generally accepted as the "core" of Modern Arnis, including additions/subtractions to the style?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Thanks Brian. As far as standard curriculum goes though, is there a knowledge base that is generally accepted as the "core" of Modern Arnis, including additions/subtractions to the style?


 
I would definately say that depends on the Organization/Instructor.  There certainly are things that are fairly universal but also can be slightly different.  However in your area you are blessed with a great training hall with Rich Parsons and the Flint Dojo group.  Check them out if you get the chance.  We have Rich up every now and then for a seminar so he get's my recommendation.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 6, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would definately say that depends on the Organization/Instructor.  There certainly are things that are fairly universal but also can be slightly different.  However in your area you are blessed with a great training hall with Rich Parsons and the Flint Dojo group.  Check them out if you get the chance.  We have Rich up every now and then for a seminar so he get's my recommendation.



I have seen most if not all those, in North America and Europe who are leaders in organizations and or main teaching of Modern Arnis on their own. 

There are differences in terms. Some teach disarm variations. So, will teach disarm angle 6 in place of disarm angle 10. But the Professor would teach them in both locations anyways. He always tried to find terms that fit with people who were learning. If you called it XZ he would say do XZ. If some place else called it XY then they would called it XY. As the summer camps were being more standardized with a consistent group of people before his untimely death, there was more standardization of the terms based upon testing. 

Many times people would try to help the Professor standardize the test and or the terms but as he took something from one place to the next, the next place would feel insulted or slighted and show what they were using. This lead to some issues until as ai Mentioned more standardization based upon the Camp testing with people traveling the country and not just a region. 

The common overlap is much greater than the differences. 

Right now there are multiple organizations. 

If you have rank and certificate from GM Remy A Presas most people will take it. Jeff Delany's IMAF organization will not take all unless he remembers seeing you test in front him. (* Personal experience and please search this site for the explanation. *) The rest as far as I know will honor the rank but will ask you to train with them and make sure your terminology and theirs now aligns and also that the skill set is what they are looking for. 

Yet with the:
IMAF Inc. - Dr. Schea, and the Masters of Tapi-Tapi. & Datu D. Hoffman
WMAA - Datu Tim Hartman
DAV - Datu Dieter Knuttel
MA 80 - Senior Master Dan Anderson
MARPPIO - The Children of GM Remy Presas lead by Dr. Remy P Presas
WMAC - Datu Kelly Wordan
IMAFP - Numerous Senior Masters and Grand Masters
Many of the independents such as the Flint Club
IMAF - Jeff Delany
Others I have not mentions


If the rank is given by one of the organizations and/or independents the others may not honor it. They would expect you to make sure you are working their curriculum and skill set. 


I will talk to you Gary when I see you about some of this. 

Thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 6, 2008)

Dieter said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have moved it to a new topic, because I think its a good one and otherwise it may bee "hidden" in the other thread.
> 
> ...




Thank you Dieter.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 6, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I have seen most if not all those, in North America and Europe who are leaders in organizations and or main teaching of Modern Arnis on their own.
> 
> There are differences in terms. Some teach disarm variations. So, will teach disarm angle 6 in place of disarm angle 10. But the Professor would teach them in both locations anyways. He always tried to find terms that fit with people who were learning. If you called it XZ he would say do XZ. If some place else called it XY then they would called it XY. As the summer camps were being more standardized with a consistent group of people before his untimely death, there was more standardization of the terms based upon testing.
> 
> ...



Thanks Rich.  Looking very forward to it!!!


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 23, 2008)

Dieter

Good Post

Mark


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## Black Grass (Jan 25, 2008)

I have not been involved in Modern Arnis (MA) in many years (10) but it seems to me that Modern Arnis became more elaborate at the expense of basics and fighting skill.  From my experience MA practitioners in the Philippines had a much firmer grasp  of the basics that those in the US who focused on on the more elaborate aspects of MA.

The focus in the 90's seemed to be entirely on Tapi-Tapi. People in the US  became very good at it, however many MA practitioners had terrible basics and had zero fighting ability.  (including many black belts). By basics I mean poor striking ability and footwork. 

Only when I went to the Philppines and met/trained with MA and ARJUKEN/Kombatatan players that I found out how bad they were in the US. I didn't see alot of Tapi-Tapi, but they could hit hard and fast. I was always suspect of many MA BB in the US and my suspicions were confirmed in the Philippines. 

Vince
aka Black Grass

a side note : To Datu Deiter's credit when I met some of his students in the UK ('98) at a Guro Dan Inosanto seminar I found his students had very good  basics and was impressed with there skill in comparison to there American counterparts.


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## Dan Anderson (Feb 2, 2008)

Black Grass said:


> *1.* I have not been involved in Modern Arnis (MA) in many years (10) but it seems to me that Modern Arnis became more elaborate at the expense of basics and fighting skill. From my experience MA practitioners in the Philippines had a much firmer grasp of the basics that those in the US who focused on on the more elaborate aspects of MA.
> 
> *2.* The focus in the 90's seemed to be entirely on Tapi-Tapi. People in the US became very good at it, however many MA practitioners had terrible basics and had zero fighting ability. (including many black belts). By basics I mean poor striking ability and footwork.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Vince,

1.  Unfortunately, most of the MA practitioners in the USA were training in MA as a sideline art hence the lack of FMA basics.  You put that together with purely technique training and you get very little fighting applications.

2.  Yes, the 1990's was the "decade of the Tapi-tapi."  Tapi-tapi has a function but if you cannot capture your opponent's cane AND then if he doesn't grab your attacking bait, it does not function.  I LOVE disarming techniques.  In a fast and hot one it is harder than hell to capture a cane therefore one has to train accordingly.

3.  When I went to the PI last year (in both the Remy Presas Memorial Trianing Camp and the 3 World FMA Festival) I cam away with the impreession that the best stateside practitioners of MA _can_ hold their own with their Filipino brothers.  Good series of posts overall.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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