# TKD Side kick differences from all others.



## CDKJudoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Okay, I searched and didn't see any threads on this. 

This is an offshot from the thread about TKD being bad for you, and someone mentioning that TKD side kicks in particular are.

My question, being that there are some practitioners from other MAs in this part of the forum, what is the real difference between a TKD/TSD/CKD etc side kick and one performed by another MA. I know the way we chamber is the main difference, aiming with the back pocket. 

What do you guys think?


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## clfsean (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Okay, I searched and didn't see any threads on this.
> 
> This is an offshot from the thread about TKD being bad for you, and someone mentioning that TKD side kicks in particular are.
> 
> ...




Coming from the TKD & CMA world together, the TKD side kick that I learned way back when (still practice\teach today) is a thrusting, toes pointed to the ground, hip fully rotated beast kick. 

The generic CMA side kick I learned (still practice\teach today) tends to leave the hip unturned & snaps off the thigh when raised. The hip isn't driven as much through it although there is some drive.

Same kick, different ideas.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Okay, I searched and didn't see any threads on this.
> 
> This is an offshot from the thread about TKD being bad for you, and someone mentioning that TKD side kicks in particular are.
> 
> ...


 
Like many things, before you have an intelligent discussion you must agree on how the terms are defined.  Defining a "TKD Side Kick" may be as hard as defining "What is TKD" or "What is a Martial Art" for that matter. 

I will address the Chang Hon system and let others address theirs. In the Chang Hon system their are: 1. Side Piercing Kick 2. Side Pushing Kick, 3. Side Pressing Kick (Both inward and Outward) 4. Side Rising Kick. 5.Side Checking Kick, 6. Side Thrusting Kick plus others that may be considered "Side" such as Stamping and Smashing. 
(Thats off the top of my head. so some may have been omitted- Side Turning Doesn't really count) 

So, to which "Side Kick" would you be referring? 

Yep, it's a simple system.


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## goingd (Jun 8, 2009)

The Kenpo side kick is more direct. The foot basically goes from point A to point B. It's almost like a blend of a tkd side kick and a roundhouse kick.

The side kick Bong Soo Han taught didn't chamber either. Rather you lift your leg up like to do a front snap kick and then twist and thrust.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Earl Weiss said:


> Like many things, before you have an intelligent discussion you must agree on how the terms are defined.  Defining a "TKD Side Kick" may be as hard as defining "What is TKD" or "What is a Martial Art" for that matter.
> 
> I will address the Chang Hon system and let others address theirs. In the Chang Hon system their are: 1. Side Piercing Kick 2. Side Pushing Kick, 3. Side Pressing Kick (Both inward and Outward) 4. Side Rising Kick. 5.Side Checking Kick, 6. Side Thrusting Kick plus others that may be considered "Side" such as Stamping and Smashing.
> (Thats off the top of my head. so some may have been omitted- Side Turning Doesn't really count)
> ...



Thanks for the list of side kicks.

We have 5 side kicks on our system (Chung do kwan) and all have basically the same movements. 

Long Side Kick (Back leg side kick) 
Instant Side Kick (Front leg)
Sliding Side Kick
Shuffle Side Kick
Cross behind side kick

Now I see them as the same kick, Rotating almost 180 degrees(on the long side kick at least), chambering the leg with the foot in front of the supporting knee, then bringing the leg up and parallel to the ground with you "back pocket" pointed towards the target, and then thrusting the kick out, toes pointed down or parallel to the ground and striking with the heel or blade of the foot. 

The only one out of the 5 that is a little different, is the sliding side kick. The chamber doesn't have as many movements, taking out the first chamber and going right for the parallel chamber.

I was more curious of the hip placement and rotation, as well as the positioning of the supporting leg.

I hope that makes sense.


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## ATC (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Thanks for the list of side kicks.
> 
> We have 5 side kicks on our system (Chung do kwan) and all have basically the same movements.
> 
> ...


What you listed is the same side kick just packaged differently. What Earl listed are different techniques altogeather. For example a cut kick (as we call it) or pushing side kick has a different chamber and foot pointing direction, plus hip turn angle, plus plant foot angle and placement than a piercing side kick. There are many different side kicks and they are all used differently.

I never got the whole TKD side kick vs. other side kicks thing, as we are taught many variation of the side kick that I see in Karate, Kung Fu and other martial arts.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 8, 2009)

ATC said:


> What you listed is the same side kick just packaged differently. What Earl listed are different techniques altogeather. For example a cut kick (as we call it) or pushing side kick has a different chamber and foot pointing direction, plus hip turn angle, plus plant foot angle and placement than a piercing side kick. There are many different side kicks and they are all used differently.
> 
> I never got the whole TKD side kick vs. other side kicks thing, as we are taught many variation of the side kick that I see in Karate, Kung Fu and other martial arts.



But they are all the same kick, IMHO. What exactly is a piercing side kick, and what makes it different from a pushing side kick really? I am actually looking for image examples or video examples of the side kick. I have been doing TKD for almost 20 years, and every variation of the side kick looks the same to me.


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## Omar B (Jun 8, 2009)

The lowdown on the Choi Kwang Do side kick is this.  I'm using Seido Karate reference points because that's my main art and most are familiar with a Japanese side kick.  The CKD kick starts with the lead leg comming up not straight from the side but in an ark that moves upward and forward with the knee position anout 5 inches forward of where the Japanese side kick would be.  During the chambering the non kicking leg is relaxed, the knee bends as you chamber but you go up on the ball of the foot tightening the calf.  The foot then comes out in a backwards ark not unlike the Japanese hook kick but not as exagerated (remember, this is side kick) but more a result of the more forard chambering position of the knee, the lead striking surface is the side of the foot closer to the heel while in the Japanese system it's the side of the foot closer to the middle.  Contact is made with the heel/side of the foot as the non kicking calf relaxes dropping from the ball of the foot to the flat foot.  After contact the circular arc continues carrying the foot back to the chambered position and then down.

Think of it as swimming the breast stroke, at the most extreem exdge of your arc is where the foot would make contact but just like in the swimming stroke the arc continues back to the starting position never jerking the joint just folowing a smooth fast arc.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> But they are all the same kick, IMHO. What exactly is a piercing side kick, and what makes it different from a pushing side kick really? I am actually looking for image examples or video examples of the side kick. I have been doing TKD for almost 20 years, and every variation of the side kick looks the same to me.


 

Easier to show than describe. Think of how your fist twists in a traditional martial art punch. That is a main characteristic of the side piercing kick. Also Speed of the leg is very important and the mass behind the kick less important and little "time on target" needed for the destructive effect. 
Contrast that with side pushing kick. It is used to push / off balance or displace the opponent. Retraction is of less importance Mass is of greater importance, time on target is more important and rotation of the striking surface is irrelevant. 

Side thrusting kick uses the ball of the foot. Less rotation, meant for linear penetration. 

For a better description of Striking vs. Thrusting vs piercing techniques see my article in Totaly TKD and photo illustrations of effect. (issue 2, April 2009 free and available online)


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## ATC (Jun 8, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> But they are all the same kick, IMHO. What exactly is a piercing side kick, and what makes it different from a pushing side kick really? I am actually looking for image examples or video examples of the side kick. I have been doing TKD for almost 20 years, and every variation of the side kick looks the same to me.


If you do not know the differences then you must not be a fighter. Not saying this to be mean or get a responce but any fighter that spent any time in the ring knows the differences between his kicks and when and why to use them.

Below are only two side kicks that to the untrained eye may look the same but to a fighter are vastly different. I will try to find other variants as well.

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or

[yt]5gevdK3_aK4[/yt]

Also the pushing side kick is used to gain you distance for setting up a followup technique of your choice. You can also use a pushing side kick as a technique to stop your opponet from moving forward. Pushing side kick is not ment to do damage but to stop or give you distance from your opponet.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> If you do not know the differences then you must not be a fighter. Not saying this to be mean or get a responce but any fighter that spent any time in the ring knows the differences between his kicks and when and why to use them.
> 
> Below are only two side kicks that to the untrained eye may look the same but to a fighter are vastly different. I will try to find other variants as well.
> 
> ...


 

Interesting in the first video he mentions (in the text ) leaning away which is something i don't usualy encourage but can be useful on a case by case basis, but on the last 2 bag kicks thee is little if any leaning away which is what I prefer.


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## dancingalone (Jun 9, 2009)

This is a pretty fair representation of the karate side kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05_4yvNzqUU&feature=fvw

As you can see, to a Korean stylist it almost looks like a cross between a sidekick and a roundhouse kick with a comparatively short chamber.

Pros:  Quick and requires less room to execute.  Less hip action and potentially less damaging to your body to practice.

Cons:  Large gap in power compared to the Korean side kick.


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## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2009)

You know all of you are basically talking about the same thing, a piercing sidekick would be like a short penetrating kick that is release from the target quicker but with more damage kinda like a palm strike with the hand, more damamge and less time plus the follow up techniques are alot easier to throw.


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## terryl965 (Jun 9, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> This is a pretty fair representation of the karate side kick.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05_4yvNzqUU&feature=fvw
> 
> ...


 
Yea it is simply a step across sidekick without the hip being turnover.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> If you do not know the differences then you must not be a fighter. Not saying this to be mean or get a responce but any fighter that spent any time in the ring knows the differences between his kicks and when and why to use them.
> 
> Below are only two side kicks that to the untrained eye may look the same but to a fighter are vastly different. I will try to find other variants as well.




The mechanics are both pretty much the same. They are both back leg side kicks. One is a snap side kick and the other's a side kick teep. I guess I worded my initial question incorrectly. I am more interested in the different biomechanics involved between the styles.

Being CDK, side kick is a big part of our arsenal, but they are all variations of the same exact kick. The chamber may differ a little, and how the power is used to extend out the the kick, but they are all the same. With the second video, we use the same style push kick, but we do it from the lead leg to open the distance.



dancingalone said:


> This is a pretty fair representation of the karate side kick.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05_4yvNzqUU&feature=fvw
> 
> ...



Thanks, this is what I was looking for. This would be considering a "skipping roundhouse kick" by our GM.



terryl965 said:


> You know all of you are basically talking about the same thing, a piercing sidekick would be like a short penetrating kick that is release from the target quicker but with more damage kinda like a palm strike with the hand, more damamge and less time plus the follow up techniques are alot easier to throw.



That is exactly my point.


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## dancingalone (Jun 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> If you do not know the differences then you must not be a fighter. Not saying this to be mean or get a responce but any fighter that spent any time in the ring knows the differences between his kicks and when and why to use them.



A bit strongly worded.  The push kick is rather more of a sport adaptation, although it's certainly has been documented in various books dating from at least the sixties.  People who do a lot of sparring will find it very useful to creating distance and for setting up scoring combinations.  People who train for other purposes might find differently.

I've visited lots of tae kwon do schools that teach the snap side kick exclusively since they train for stopping an attacker cold in his tracks with the kick rather than pushing him away.


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## ATC (Jun 9, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> A bit strongly worded. The push kick is rather more of a sport adaptation, although it's certainly has been documented in various books dating from at least the sixties. People who do a lot of sparring will find it very useful to creating distance and for setting up scoring combinations. People who train for other purposes might find differently.
> 
> I've visited lots of tae kwon do schools that teach the snap side kick exclusively since they train for stopping an attacker cold in his tracks with the kick rather than pushing him away.


I did not mean or intend any disrespect. I apologize if any was infered.

In basic class we teach the same snap side kick but in competition class (anyone that wants to compete) there are other side kicks that we teach. The main one being the cut kick that is thrown to the hip. Off of the cut kick we can then do a multitue of techniques, some without putting down the cut kick leg.

Like Earl said it is easier to show than to explain the differences. The two videos shown are two similar kicks but there are differences. The kick that dancingalone linked to is another type of cutting kick that is used similar to a jab. It is not designed to damage at all but to find range or bait the opponet into doing or showing something. At least this is how we use that kick.


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> I did not mean or intend any disrespect. I apologize if any was infered.



There was no disrespect so it's all good.



ATC said:


> In basic class we teach the same snap side kick but in competition class (anyone that wants to compete) there are other side kicks that we teach. The main one being the cut kick that is thrown to the hip. Off of the cut kick we can then do a multitue of techniques, some without putting down the cut kick leg.



So it's a side kick teep. The mechanics look the same as the one that we use, but I consider the same kick as any other TKD side kick, with a slight difference as to how the kick is finally delivered.



ATC said:


> Like Earl said it is easier to show than to explain the differences. The two videos shown are two similar kicks but there are differences. The kick that dancingalone linked to is another type of cutting kick that is used similar to a jab. It is not designed to damage at all but to find range or bait the opponet into doing or showing something. At least this is how we use that kick.



The vid that DA showed would be seen as a roundhouse kick using the blade of the foot as the point of impact. We use it the same way, but follow with either a hook kick or a "true" side kick.

I want to thank everyone for their responses, it is very edumacational!!


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> If you do not know the differences then you must not be a fighter. Not saying this to be mean or get a responce but any fighter that spent any time in the ring knows the differences between his kicks and when and why to use them.
> 
> Below are only two side kicks that to the untrained eye may look the same but to a fighter are vastly different. I will try to find other variants as well.
> 
> ...


I like the screw driver better; however, we do it without cocking the knee. For our group, its *ALL *in the hips.
Sean


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## Bruce7 (Dec 2, 2018)

MDK Taekwondo was my first Martial Art and then I learn other Martial Arts like Kung Fu long fist.
I think most of the kicks were similar except the Taekwondo side kick. The Taekwondo side kick in my opinion is the most powerful kick, but takes slightly longer to setup than a Kung Fu side kick. If you notice I think when Bruce Lee is kicking some one hard he is using  a Taekwondo side kick probably learn from Chuck Norris. Bruce Lee sometimes uses a Kung Fu side kick usually to block an in coming kick or stop someone forward movement.
I have never taken a Japanese striking art like Karate. Is the side kick like Kung Fu or Taekwondo?


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2018)

clfsean said:


> Coming from the TKD & CMA world together, the TKD side kick that I learned way back when (still practice\teach today) is a thrusting, toes pointed to the ground, hip fully rotated beast kick.
> 
> The generic CMA side kick I learned (still practice\teach today) tends to leave the hip unturned & snaps off the thigh when raised. The hip isn't driven as much through it although there is some drive.
> 
> Same kick, different ideas.


I wanted to parrot off your reply as I think it is very accurate.
To help @DarkPhoenix  with his query, I will only speak in terms of a back leg (reverse) side kick although the same applies for most side kicks. With right leg back to throw a right leg kick, the left foot will pivot on the ball from toes pointed forward to toes pointed back. At the same time, the body will pivot so that only the right shoulder is pointed toward your target. This should naturally roll the hips to the point that the knot of your belt is pointing towards the floor. When fully extended, the knee and toes of the kicking leg will be pointed down. Only the heel of the foot strikes the target. NOT the whole foot. The chamber; this is taught many different ways but here is how I was taught. All basic kicks (front, round, side, crescent, etc...)start with the same chamber to be powerful and elusive. The knee is driven high above the solar plexus as quick as possible. The body leans back as little as possible (also a defense posture). The powerful and quick drive of the knee is a major component in your rotation. The leg and body rotates over about 180° so that the kick is a push from the hips, not a snap from the thigh. I use that analogy of "mooning" you opponent when you are in correct position.
Some post mention the side kick being a long distance kick. From my Olympic sparring days this is NOT true. It takes practice and a lot of stretching but you can front leg side kick <1 foot away from your opponent.
I hope this post gets back to the OP, It did not auto-recognize their name. I hope to year both opinions.


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## skribs (Dec 4, 2018)

@dvcochran probably have trouble recognizing this name because this post is older than 90% of the students at my school.


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## dvcochran (Dec 4, 2018)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran probably have trouble recognizing this name because this post is older than 90% of the students at my school.


Yes I saw that the OP was old. I was responding to @Bruce7  's post. Thought it was a good thread to posit to.


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