# Leaping Crane



## MJS (Aug 17, 2007)

There is a good thread going on over at KT about this technique.  I thought that we could discuss it here as well, for any members that are not a part of KT.  The main focus was the application of the 'leap', the kick and the knuckle rake.  The technique as written, has the defender hop onto his left leg, parrying the punching hand, as you deliver a knuckle rake and then a right side kick to the knee.

Seems to me, especially against a committed punch, that it would make more sense to step, rather than hop and then continue as normal.  You're more in balance compared to hopping onto your left.

How does everyone else perform this technique?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 17, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a good thread going on over at KT about this technique. I thought that we could discuss it here as well, for any members that are not a part of KT. The main focus was the application of the 'leap', the kick and the knuckle rake. The technique as written, has the defender hop onto his left leg, parrying the punching hand, as you deliver a knuckle rake and then a right side kick to the knee.
> 
> Seems to me, especially against a committed punch, that it would make more sense to step, rather than hop and then continue as normal. You're more in balance compared to hopping onto your left.
> 
> How does everyone else perform this technique?


You are better off launching. Stepping indicates a leg getting off the line of attack for a transference of body weight to the new base. Launching moves your whole body off the line of attack.
Sean


----------



## masherdong (Aug 18, 2007)

I remember learning is as a shuffle with your rear leg coming behind and tapping the lead leg's knee.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 18, 2007)

masherdong said:


> I remember learning is as a shuffle with your rear leg coming behind and tapping the lead leg's knee.


Wow!... That is a slower method.
Sean


----------



## masherdong (Aug 18, 2007)

> Wow!... That is a slower method.



Well, you step with your left leg to 10:30 or 11:00 and the right leg follows your left leg and taps the knee.


----------



## MJS (Aug 20, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are better off launching. Stepping indicates a leg getting off the line of attack for a transference of body weight to the new base. Launching moves your whole body off the line of attack.
> Sean


 
Thats interesting.  Never had it explained like that.  I'm curious though, and I may have missed it, but I can't recall seeing it explained like this on the thread at KT.  Additionally, and I know that we shouldn't hold the written versions in "Big Red" as the end all be all way of doing the tech., but looking at a written version, you never see the word launch, just step.

Mike


----------



## Doc (Aug 20, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thats interesting.  Never had it explained like that.  I'm curious though, and I may have missed it, but I can't recall seeing it explained like this on the thread at KT.  Additionally, and I know that we shouldn't hold the written versions in "Big Red" as the end all be all way of doing the tech., but looking at a written version, you never see the word launch, just step.
> 
> Mike



Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.

"Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process. 

According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 20, 2007)

Doc said:


> Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.
> 
> "Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process.
> 
> According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.


True, unless you are already prepared to launch by your left foot being slightly forward into more of a ready stance. Most of the time, if a punch is already in progress before it occurs to you to react, you get hit.
Sean


----------



## MJS (Aug 20, 2007)

Doc said:


> Without going into significant detail as we work this out on KT, the idea of "launching" is flawed. Ed Parker self-defense techniques are "Reactionary Vehicles," although most have consistently attempted in teaching them, to move them into "action mode," where all attacks are anticipated allowing victims to always "move first" to avoid certain kinds of contact. "Launching" over "Stepping" is a significant physical action, requiring significant anticipation of a specific assault in this scenario. A ludricrous position under common sense guidelines most of the time.
> 
> "Launching" requires the utilization of a stable object or surface to "push" or launch oneself in the desired direction and action. This would require a significant physical action of shifting the weight, and a "loading" of the launching leg to even begin that process.
> 
> According to the theme of the technique sceanrio, this action would have to occur after the punch is in progress. AND, as most versions I have seen rely on this action to avoid being struck, it would appear to be too time consuming to be an effective vehicle to avoid the Initial Assault, and prepare for the next retalitory action.


 
Thanks Doc! As I said, this discussion was the first time that I had ever heard of such a suggestion. Out of curiosity, what was the success rate of the people who opted to move them to the 'action mode' that you describe? 



Touch Of Death said:


> True, unless you are already prepared to launch by your left foot being slightly forward into more of a ready stance. Most of the time, if a punch is already in progress before it occurs to you to react, you get hit.
> Sean


 
I suppose this would be a good time to talk about the stance we're in. Like I said, this is an interesting subject, due to the fact that I never really gave much thought of the launch vs step, although unless I'm planning on pre-empting, I've always stepped.

Mike


----------



## Doc (Aug 20, 2007)

MJS said:


> Thanks Doc! As I said, this discussion was the first time that I had ever heard of such a suggestion. Out of curiosity, what was the success rate of the people who opted to move them to the 'action mode' that you describe?



When you move before you're really attacked, the odds are usually in your favor. That's the reason why it's popular, if not actually practical.

See the on going discussion on KT.


----------



## MJS (Aug 20, 2007)

Doc said:


> When you move before you're really attacked, the odds are usually in your favor. That's the reason why it's popular, if not actually practical.
> 
> See the on going discussion on KT.


 
Doc, obviously you've analyzed these techniques much more than I have.  If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach your students to do?

edit:  I'll pop over to KT.


----------



## Doc (Aug 20, 2007)

MJS said:


> Doc, obviously you've analyzed these techniques much more than I have.  If you don't mind me asking, what do you teach your students to do?
> 
> edit:  I'll pop over to KT.



We're in the midst of discussing the technique on KT as well as performing some awareness experiments. I can't do this on the same subject on two forums at the same time. Its too time consuming sir.  It will be covered over there.


----------



## MJS (Aug 20, 2007)

Doc said:


> We're in the midst of discussing the technique on KT as well as performing some awareness experiments. I can't do this on the same subject on two forums at the same time. Its too time consuming sir. It will be covered over there.


 
Not a problem Doc.  I'll resume over there.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> I suppose this would be a good time to talk about the stance we're in. Like I said, this is an interesting subject, due to the fact that I never really gave much thought of the launch vs step, although unless I'm planning on pre-empting, I've always stepped.
> 
> Mike


A step indicates moving a part your base away from your center of gravity. A ready person would naturaly attempt "Launching Crain" which would be a leap without heighth. And you can't launch or leap quickly with your feet toguether. It would be an either/or thing depending on an individual's natural standing position.
Sean


----------



## MeatWad2 (Aug 23, 2007)

I have a different version of a technique called "leaping crane."  I have it as hoping on to your left foot while you do a left hammer to the ulna followed by a right backfist to the temple.  Right side kick/stomp to their knee.  As you step down, you grab the head with the left and right elbow to the temple.  switch so your right hand is in front of their face, and rake the face.  You end with a right stepping stool round house to their face.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 23, 2007)

MeatWad2 said:


> I have a different version of a technique called "leaping crane." I have it as hoping on to your left foot while you do a left hammer to the ulna followed by a right backfist to the temple. Right side kick/stomp to their knee. As you step down, you grab the head with the left and right elbow to the temple. switch so your right hand is in front of their face, and rake the face. You end with a right stepping stool round house to their face.


Why are you grabbing the head?


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 23, 2007)

And for those of us that don't speak Kenpoese: 
[yt]Qk4qVzuQf7o[/yt]


----------



## MJS (Aug 23, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> A step indicates moving a part your base away from your center of gravity. A ready person would naturaly attempt "Launching Crain" which would be a leap without heighth. And you can't launch or leap quickly with your feet toguether. It would be an either/or thing depending on an individual's natural standing position.
> Sean


 
Interesting points about the stance.  For myself, when I execute my techniques, I tend to do them from either a neutral stances or more of a narrow neutral bow.  In other words, from a neutral stance, taking a small step back with the right foot.  If there were an X on the ground my feet would be on this \ line.


----------



## michaeledward (Aug 23, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> And for those of us that don't speak Kenpoese:


 
I like that clip, a lot. He does a very good job of breaking down the technique. It's one of the nicer presentations of a technique I have seen from youtube. Thanks. 

We do it a bit differently. I am going to try and explain our differences, and why. Take it as you will. 

In our studio, the initial right hand strike does not go to the ribs, but rather the middle knuckle is attempting to clip the underside of the punch; either the forearm (preferred) or the tricep area. This has to do with range. Later, as we gain greater skill, we see the Crane techniques get in closer (Gathering Clouds (which does strike the ribs), Clipping the Storm).

He shows the hammerfist as a 'pendulum' strike ... he teaches this effectively, but I think that is the wrong circle. A pendulum is swinging on a vertical circle. We use a horizontal circle, striking the kidney with the right backfist and following through, all the way to our right hip in the chambered position.  As shown in the clip, he is striking the attackers left kidney. I am pretty certain we work our strike to the right kidney ~ although I think the rotation created by the kick could dictate either choice. 

By using his pendulum strike, the travel for that inward elbow strike is impeded, in my opinion. By swinging his hand on a vertical circle, the elbow is in very close to the attackers head. It makes for a fast elbow strike. We train to get our right hand chambered back, and launch that elbow, still on a horizontal circle, from a full cocked position. This gives us full travel (always being careful to avoid false travel) for that shot to the head. 

My last thought is about the elbow sandwich. In the clip, he executes a heel palm strike to the opposite side of the head from the elbow strike. I suppose this makes sense with the shortened travel of the pendulum strike discussed above. We do not use an elbow sandwich here. Our left hand is busy checking the attackers body for any rotation. Usually, I have my left hand on the attackers right shoulder, or upper arm. If he attempts to turn toward me, I will be aware of it and (hopefully) able to concentrate. If both my hands are at his head, his elbows might be thrown backward into my groin / thigh / lower ab. 

Now, if I ripped the tendons out of his knee, and split open his knee-cap, the elbow strikes aren't really going to be a problem, but I want some way to measure and check the rotation of his body. 

Andrew Green ~ thank you for the post. People executing this technique as taught in that clip could do much, much worse, in my opinion.


----------



## bujuts (Aug 24, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> My last thought is about the elbow sandwich. In the clip, he executes a heel palm strike to the opposite side of the head from the elbow strike. I suppose this makes sense with the shortened travel of the pendulum strike discussed above.



I use the elbow sandwich myself, and for good reason.  Many don't do the elbow sandwich to the head, rather they do an elbow sandwich _six inches behind the head_, such as in this clip.  If we are to break the mandible with the elbow sandwich, the elbow requires greater penetration into the body.  Does anybody have some thoughts on practicing correct depth, rather than sandwiching mid air?  Why do so many practice it this way when its a totally incorrect depth?

cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> And for those of us that don't speak Kenpoese:
> [yt]Qk4qVzuQf7o[/yt]


Just for clarification, I don't like this clip, but I'm sure they are nice guys.
Sean


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

bujuts said:


> I use the elbow sandwich myself, and for good reason. Many don't do the elbow sandwich to the head, rather they do an elbow sandwich _six inches behind the head_, such as in this clip. If we are to break the mandible with the elbow sandwich, the elbow requires greater penetration into the body. Does anybody have some thoughts on practicing correct depth, rather than sandwiching mid air? Why do so many practice it this way when its a totally incorrect depth?
> 
> cheers,
> 
> ...


We don't use the sandwich at all unless the head comes to us. 
Sean


----------



## michaeledward (Aug 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Just for clarification, I don't like this clip, but I'm sure they are nice guys.
> Sean


 
If I may ask, what don't you like about the clip?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> If I may ask, what don't you like about the clip?


First of all, the one legged stance with the cocking of the knee. You really don't need to pronounce your evading of the punch with a balancing act. Secondly, I don't like the pundulum motion of the BK to the ribs.
Sean


----------



## Doc (Aug 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> We don't use the sandwich at all unless the head comes to us.
> Sean



Agreed. And if you do the technique correctly or should I say effectively, it won't.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 24, 2007)

Doc said:


> Agreed. And if you do the technique correctly or should I say effectively, it won't.


I find that is usually the case.
Sean


----------



## Jeff Harvey (Dec 2, 2007)

Firstly, the attack as I learned it was a running or lunging step through punch;  so I am led to assume that you would see this attack coming.  The first move(as I was taught anyhow) is to leap or hop into a one-legged stance with your right foot against your left knee while parrying the strike with your left hand and sending a chopping punch to the attacker's right kidney.  The purpose of the hoop or leap as I understand it is to position yourself for the kick before your opponent can turn around.  However, if the attack was simply a step-through punch, rather than a lunging punch, stepping would probably be necessary to avoid over-shooting your target.


----------



## Jeff Harvey (Dec 2, 2007)

The sandwich(again as I was shown) can be useful for unhinging the jaw, but is mostly applied as a setup for the extension to this technique.  And I have seen the middle knuckle strike used more frequently than the chopping punch, I think it just comes down to personal preference.


----------



## Doc (Dec 2, 2007)

Jeff Harvey said:


> Firstly, the attack as I learned it was a running or lunging step through punch;  so I am led to assume that you would see this attack coming.


Then why are you doing the technique. If you see a guy running at you why would you wait for him to launch an offense so you can "defend" it. Step-through punches that come from the Okinawan/Japanese disciplines, don't happen on the street.


> The first move(as I was taught anyhow) is to leap or hop into a one-legged stance with your right foot against your left knee while parrying the strike with your left hand and sending a chopping punch to the attacker's right kidney.


Suppose your weight is on the other foot when you're attacked? When you "hop" your body momentum is moving in the direction of the hop.


> The purpose of the hoop or leap as I understand it is to position yourself for the kick before your opponent can turn around.


I'm speechless on that one.


> However, if the attack was simply a step-through punch, rather than a lunging punch, stepping would probably be necessary to avoid over-shooting your target.


OK I give.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> OK I give.


 
Thanks for the chuckle, Chief. I needed that.


----------



## kenpofighter (Dec 5, 2007)

I have all ways been taught to do this teck. with the "leap", but if you look we do the same move in the teck. Glancing Lance.  Of course we have already banged them up a bit by that time.


----------



## Doc (Dec 5, 2007)

kenpofighter said:


> I have all ways been taught to do this teck. with the "leap", but if you look we do the same move in the teck. Glancing Lance.



No "we" don't. Drop the collective pronouns and, if you like, tell us about what "you" do or like rather than what "we" do. There is much to be learned sir and many here are very knowledgeable and will share with you, but you must drop self-limiting assumptions and focus on where you are and what you want to do or learn. Asking questions is much better than rhetorical statements seeking agreement. The latter seeking approval is counter-productive to good discussions sir.


----------



## seninoniwashi (Dec 6, 2007)

MJS said:


> There is a good thread going on over at KT about this technique. I thought that we could discuss it here as well, for any members that are not a part of KT. The main focus was the application of the 'leap', the kick and the knuckle rake. The technique as written, has the defender hop onto his left leg, parrying the punching hand, as you deliver a knuckle rake and then a right side kick to the knee.
> 
> Seems to me, especially against a committed punch, that it would make more sense to step, rather than hop and then continue as normal. You're more in balance compared to hopping onto your left.
> 
> How does everyone else perform this technique?


 
I've learned this one as a hop to 9:00 with the knuckle rake, once balanced the next step is the side kick... I agree about the step, it would give you a more settled stance to execute your kick from. When I practice the technique however I try to put emphasis on the leap though  as there are few techniques in the EPAKK style that focus on this crane stance - it is a good lesson for weight distribution and the transfer of momentum.


----------

