# The Problem with Karate



## Kenpo Yahoo (Dec 22, 2002)

I've posted this question in hopes that I might get some legitimate feedback from the broad spectrum of BJJ or MMA people on this forum.

I've heard of (not actually seen) tapes that the Gracies use to make back in their Rio days, of them sparring "karate" guys.  The Gracies would be pummeling some guy and you would hear someone in the background say, "so-and-so just realized that he has wasted 10years of his life perfecting karate."  If anyone knows where I could get a copy of this/these tapes please let me know.

On to my question, why do you think that people who train in stand-up arts, historically, have such a hard time dealing with groundfighters.  Is it just due to lack of exposure?  Lack of conditioning?  Realism, etc...?  

I've been in American Kenpo for the last 5 years, our system has actually gone back through and re worked alot of our material to make reponses more realistic.  I've also been working out with a Machado Blue belt to at least gain some familiarity with the possibilities.  

Please know that I'm not trying to start anything up, I'm just simply asking a question so I can better myself.  I know that in my Kenpo Assosciation we have spent a little extra time learning to recognize and deal with someone who tries to shoot in on your legs, but I also know that you guys spend a great deal of time practicing this stuff.  

I know, I know, endless rambling...  I just wanted to open the subject for discussion.  Feel free to approach the situation anyway you like, just keep it somewhat respectful.


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## ace (Dec 22, 2002)

But If U Limit Your Self & close the Door
To other styels Then the fact that is u 
may end up in unfermilar Waters.


To be complete in Fighting U have to have 
More than 1 way.

U have to be abel to strike, Wrestle 
or defend aganist a Weapon.

___________________________________--------------

The Gracies in Action 1&2 Can Be found on The Net
Just Look Up Gracies in Action


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## Aki (Dec 22, 2002)

Kenpo Yahoo,
You make a great point.  I normally don't reply to these discussion forums but I couldn't help myself after reading yours.  I think stand up people have a hard time with grapplers because most of them have lost the aspect of actual fighting.  A lot of people who practice karate only know forms.  You will not know how to fight just knowing forms.  it is like learning a basic arm bar.  You can drill the form over and over, but it is not the same when actually rolling with someone.  I have trained in Okinawan Karate for 20 years now. I can honestly say that training has changed drastically (not for the better).  I started Karate in Okinawa when I was 11 and 25% of the class was forms. 25% was training (conditioning, & techniques) and the remaining half was fighting.  I remember my teacher saying that Forms will NOT teach you how to fight, they will make you a better fighter but they will NOT teach you how to fight!!! Now when I look at schools most of them teach forms with little or no fighting.   Now this is the little microcosm of Karate.  There are many other systems out there and they have different sets of issues.
I think the main problem as to why stand up people have a hard time with grapplers is because of a lack of understanding of distance.  Most allow grapplers in to close, so when the grappler shoots in, the Stand up person has lost the effective striking distance and gets smothered.  Muay thai practitioners used to get caught like this a lot but now many have some grappling experience and can neutralise the shoot while dispensing damage.  Thats my two cents- I think you should look at other systems but be careful of being a jack of all trades master of nothing.  I am over simplifying here but I see three major distances and most systems can be broken into one or two of these three.  1. Striking 2. Clinching 3. Grappling.
My opinion is if you can master two of the distances you will be a great fighter.  Mastering three is pretty hard since it takes 10-20 years to truly be adept at one system.  Good Luck!!!!


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2002)

I think the main problem as to why stand up people have a hard time with grapplers is because of a lack of understanding of distance.

I Think you hit the nail on the head there Aki!! 90% of the time you slip in past the elbows of even an experienced Karateka and you've dropped his odds a great deal. Most Karate moves deal their damage at arms length. Sure there's elbows, but so few Karateka put in the time to make them really effective.

Like you Yahoo, I'm happy with the amount of time that Mr. Mills and those whom he 'bounces' ideas off of (and I mean BOUNCES) have spent on the groundfighting work in the AKKI. But sometimes I still think it's just a start, I bet there's even more on the way. 

I know how i'd deal with grapplers, because I have. AND I've been a grappler. So the outlook is a little different. My strengths are in stand-up/balistic fighting... but I agree that we shouldn't overlook any range of fighting.
Just some thinkin...
Your Brother
John
:asian:


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## yilisifu (Dec 22, 2002)

Aki has an excellent point.  I would add that many martial artists are simply not accustomed to that form of fighting; most of us tend to fight people who attack us with "familiar" attacks.
   The grappler's approach is certainly "unfamiliar."

   If the karate person maintains a strong and stable position without raising the hips too high, he can easily move and generate a very strong counter-attack when someone shoots in to grab his legs.


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## JDenz (Dec 22, 2002)

I think the problem that you guys are all missing is rhythm and toughness.  Grapplers train everypractice on ground fighting getting it to the ground they fight diffrent pace stuff then Karate guys are used to.  40 percent of the attacks or more don't work on a guy focused on getting the fight to the ground, and many of us are willing to take your shot to get it on the ground where we will know we will win.  Think of it this way we train takesdowns and 100 percent of the time we are facing a guy that either knows how to take us down or that knows how to sprawl and probley practices his sprawl at least 5-6 times as much as you do.  There are no clases spent learning forms and or moves that won't work or haven't worked since they were back in Japan.   No Offense but Kata's where pushing grass out of the way are part of are definitly outdated even if you guys do get some use out of them.


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## yilisifu (Dec 23, 2002)

Why would karate people practice forms with movement that don't work?  Of course those movements work!

   We have two seperate concepts here.  "Groundfighting" is more of a sport than anything else.  The object is to take your man down and get him to submit.

   Karate is different.  The object is to kill a man as quickly as possible.

   While a groundfighter is "wrasslin'" him on the ground, the karateist can exploit many options, not the least of which include pressing, squeezing, or striking vital points, biting, or whatever.  However, in the interest of sport, this is usually not done.

   If an aggressor attacks you with a knife, groundfighting is likely to come up short.  I would much rather rely on karate techniques.

   It reminds me of the old "boxing vs. karate" bouts of the 70's.  Boxing often won.  Why?  Because the karate stylists were foolish enough to allow themselves to be be limited by boxing rules; no kicks below the belt, no eye gouges, not striking into the back...and they had to wear boxing gloves (which alters the striking surface of the fist).
   The truth was (and is) that real karateka would have torn a boxer to shreds if they hadn't had to follow any rules.  The legendary Mas Oyama toured the U.S. in the 50's and took on all comers in the ring.  His opponents included boxers, wrestlers, and whoever wanted to try him out.  Anyone who could remain conscious for 60 seconds would win $1,000 (which was a lot of money back then).
   Nobody ever got the money.  He said his toughest opponent was a pro boxer...because the guy kept maneuvering away from him and Oyama had a hard time getting close to him.  He finally did, though, and knocked the guy out in a single blow.

   Karate training nowadays isn't what it once was (I know; I was there in those days).


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## Aki (Dec 23, 2002)

Seriously guys I think it comes down to distance and understanding it.  
JDenz- I do agree rhythm and toughness is very important.  But rhythm will get you nowhere without understanding how far away the person is and the effective striking distance.  What makes the shoot so effective is that it takes out the effectiveness of the strike by coming in closer than its "maximum damage" range.  This is why a person can usually take a decent shot coming in because the shot is not as strong as is could have been.  Toughness last only so long since all it takes is one great shot from a stronger opponent.  Grappling and BJJ has been great with changing and evolving its training techniqies, much better than some of the other systems.
Yilisifu- I am in partial agreement with you about grappling being sport fighting.  I actually think most martial arts are sport now with the exception of some Vale Tudo.  Though a lot of Karateka like to say that their system was developed to kill quickly, most of them don't know an inking of how hard that is and what it takes to be able to do it (physically not mentally).  Mas Oyama was trained to kill and thats why he was able to knock almost everyone out.  I DEFINTELY KNOW YOU DID NOT MEAN IT THIS WAY but if eye gouging and biting are important danger techniques why take Karate to learn that?  That comment was for others who use this arguement time and again to justify their lack of training.  And i did not want this good discussion to go down that road.  Anyway guys I hope Kenpo Yahoo gets something out of this stream.


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## TkdWarrior (Dec 23, 2002)

the problems is these days average grapplers train way much better, harder than ur average striker, they put themselves against resisting oppnt... 
put a average striker against resisting oppnt on daily basis u'll get a fighter out of him which will easily deal with ur average grappler...
as aki said already forms will not make u fighter...
simple enuff to say hard to do ....
-TkdWarrior-


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## Abbax8 (Dec 23, 2002)

Good points all, but something I believe has been missed. Most TKD/Karate schools when they spar, put on the gloves, protectors etc.. Then they only stike to certain areas. The groin, the knees are off limits. Light contact to the head. The precautions are even understandable, a kick to the family jewels can cause a student to say enough with this. Now consider grapplers, judo, jj, bjj. Randori in judo is stand up and on the mat. Grip fighting is similar to striking, and sweeps for harai goshi or ashi barai feel like kicks. Randori intensity is between 50% and 110%, full contact against an uncooperative uki intent on slamming you to the ground, then choking, baring or crushing you. Constant training like this prepares you for a real fight. Add in self defense training with strikes and the grappler has a distinct advantage. The post about Oyama would even back me up, his style of school fought full contact, without pads, and used throws as well as strikes. Modern striking arts can be excellant, and I am in no way saying they are not. But it is the training at full contact that makes a difference between the grappler and many strikers. 

                                                            Peace
                                                             Dennis


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## yilisifu (Dec 24, 2002)

In a sense, that's what I meant in the last line of my post; "karate training isn't what it used to be."

   Karate evolved as a supreme method of training to defend oneself and the emphasis was on learning how to dispatch your opponent(s) as quickly as possible.  This demanded extremely rigorous training.

   Nowadays, karate has, in many instances, degenerated into a sport form and training is much less demanding.

   The confusion arises when a "sport karate" practicioner goes up against someone from another form of pugilism or grappling which is still practiced very rigorously.  It only gets worse if certain "rules for safety" are followed.
   Karate was never intended to be used as a form of sport which employs such rules.
   While such "sportification" is certainly a lot of fun and attracts lots of students, it must be borne in mind that "sport karate" is no more like the real thing than modern "sport kendo" is like fighting with live blades....


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## JDenz (Dec 24, 2002)

Okay let me say a few things.  If you fight with blades you get cut and people cry.  Anyone that thinks they aren't going to get cut get real you are.  If someone coms at you with a knife I guarentie almost every time you will get cut.  If you don't believe me watch a training session sometime or give someone off the street a training knife and see if you can disarm them without getting cut.  If you get cut in the disarm that means you are bleding and hurt.  It is the same thing in fighting.  A wrestler, BJJ, Judo guy know they are probley going to get hit once or twice in a fight but they are willing to take that.  There are not to many people that can end a fight in one shot no matter how they train.  I know it happens but it isn't the norm.   Not only that it is hard to hit someone square when they are trying not to get hit.  They are going to wait for your attack and take you down.


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## yilisifu (Dec 24, 2002)

IF the karateka is properly trained.....thn your willingness to "take his punch" is a serious error, indeed.  IF he is NOT properly trained, then fine.

   It's a big IF.

   There's always "IF'S."

   IF the karateka has a .45, then your willingness to take his "shot" is REALLY a serious error.

   Your analogy regarding knife defenses is very accurate.  But....are you saying that you'd be wiling to take an aggressor's slash or thrust just so you could grapple with him?  If that's the case, you need to rethink your strategy...
   Yes, in defending oneself against a knife, one will very likely get cut.  More than once.  But you don't allow that to happen just to "bait" your opponent...in fact, you do your level best NOT to get cut.

   So it is in bare-handed fighting.  You should try NOT to get hit.  If you "allow" yourself to be hit just so you can (hopefully) apply a grappling technique.....?


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## sammy3170 (Dec 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *IF the karateka is properly trained.....thn your willingness to "take his punch" is a serious error, indeed.  IF he is NOT properly trained, then fine.
> 
> It's a big IF.
> ...



Where I train we do groundfighting but not in the same way a bjj fighter would because we don't want to spend much time on the ground so if we go down it's do what you have to quickly and stand up, not wrestle and try to get locks on people.  The chances of actually fighting someone with any grappling skill in the street would be virtually nil.  In these challenge matches you are pitting someone with good stand up against someone with good ground skills. In these matches it has been shown that it is easier to take a standup guy down than it is to keep a grappler standing. Chances are there are rules in place in these matches as well.  Add biting, gouging and groin strickes and see again how much more even it is.  I can tell you that I would release a triangle choke rather than give the guy the ten seconds it takes for him to go out to chow down on my balls.  

Just some thoughts
cheers
Sammy


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## sammy3170 (Dec 24, 2002)

the last post wasn't supposed to have the quote above it so don't take it as a direct response to that.

Cheers
Sammy


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Dec 25, 2002)

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll try to reply to some of them later when I have more time.  Thanks for keeping this serious and respectful.  

How much emphasis do the various practitioners out there place on the Clinch?  I've never put much stock in the idea that all fights will go to the ground, but almost every fight I've seen has gone to the clinch.  Any thoughts?


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## sammy3170 (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Thank you all for your responses.
> 
> I'll try to reply to some of them later when I have more time.  Thanks for keeping this serious and respectful.
> ...



Most fights will involve some sort of wrestling whether it be standing up or on the ground but most styles deal with the standup techniques such as headlocks and bearhugs etc.

Cheers
Sammy


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## ace (Dec 28, 2002)

Watch any Boxing or Kick Boxing Match.
1 will hit the other he will either bob n weve
or clinch to stop the strike 
This is were Wrestling begins.


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## JDenz (Jan 1, 2003)

yilisifu- I would bet ground fighting disarms and karate disarms are pretty similer.   Since you are saying Oyama is one of the best Karate guys he should have been fighting the best boxers, the best kickboxers, Best Judo guys.   That is like a pro MT kickboxer destroying me and claiming he is the best.  
   I am saying that most guys that do Judo, do BJJ, or do wrestling will always get it to the ground.  All guys that do these sports/MA are all in good shape or the good ones at least.    I am not saying that we eat shots on purpose just tat we will take one to get you down.  I mean grappling arts are better in clinch and on the ground.


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## yilisifu (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes, if it goes to the ground it is crucial that one have some skill in grappling.  Many of the "older generation" of karateists also had a grappling background (usually judo) but this is no longer true nowadays.

All I was saying is that it may not be wise to allow yourself to "take his blow" so that you can get him to the ground.  With some people, if he hits you once, it's over.


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## mtabone (Jan 3, 2003)

I am still waiting for statistics on fights. I always wanted to know how many fights end up on the ground. In all the real life fights I have been in, or seen, very few ended up on the ground, and only at the end of the fight, in like a wrestling situation. Mostly because not alot of people can grapple. I also agree training is not what it used to be, for most people no adays in Karate. Though, one can train (I am talking Adults here) any way they want to. Some don't train with "reality" in mind. They just train for different reasons. Though, some do. When I teach, I stress the application and reasoning behind each movement, because I believe it to be of paramount importance.

In real life, when someone shot to my legs one time, I just did the old reaction of putting my knee right into the persons collar bone. I ended up on the ground, but this guy had only one arm essentially. I wonder why I never see this when I watch things like the UFC? 

What do you guys think. In your experence, do fights MOSTLY go to the ground, OCCASIONALLY go to the ground, or FEW AND FAR BETWEEN? Perhaps someone can create this poll in the General Martial Arts Discusion. Might be very interesting results. 

Michael Tabone


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## yilisifu (Jan 3, 2003)

I believe that most fights start off with a shove or a punch, then a grab, and then grappling....sometimes they make it to the ground and sometimes not.  Everyone thinks they're a WWF star but most of them have no clue as to what they're doing.

   Being in law enforcement, I have also had people try to "shoot" for my legs and they ended up belly-down on the ground.  Every time.  Those who shoved and then tried to grapple ended up the same way.

   One must keep one's head; remain calm and simply apply what one has trained.  If the training has been realistic, then you'll do fine.


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## Astra (Jan 3, 2003)

For all the fights I've seen and gotten into - few of them actually go to the ground. If they did, the fighters were usually too drunk or lacked balance and coordination to stay upright. Though I have not seen many grapplers fight amongst eachother on the street.
Taking to the ground is not as easy as it would seem. If you train against a TKD'ist who ONLY knows how to fight in the 1st range legs) then once you get close enough then if he doesn't have additional training, you'll win easily. However, I've tried grappling against people who were competent with their elbows and knees, like Wing Chun practitioners - it's much harder to get them on the ground. Someone who knows how to use his legs, hand and elbows and knees will likely not let you take him down so easily, especially when he has been trained a little on what works and what doesn't against grapplers.
IMHO, the only Karateka or any other striking style practitioner that goes to the ground easily, is the one who has no experience in fighting grapplers.


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## lvwhitebir (Jan 3, 2003)

I believe that most fights with untrained individuals go to the ground, simply because they get frustrated and just go in and tackle.  Trained individuals tend to not want to go to the ground and tend to stay standing as much as possible.

One of the things I got out of the first UFC was watching the stand-up fighters fight.  If one of the fighters went down a little, the other would essentially back up and let him stand instead of pressing the fight to the ground.  That's why Gracie did so good.  Once the fighter's got to the ground, they were uncomfortable and essentially gave up.

In all I think it's a matter of your comfort level.  Most people have no problem with "wrestling".  We've all done it since we were kids on the playground.  Those who are trained in stand-up arts feel more comfortable standing up, avoiding going to the ground at all costs.

WhiteBirch


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## JDenz (Jan 3, 2003)

If a guy is not taking you to the ground then he is not a grappler just an untrained fighter.  Grapplers don't lunge unless they are getting desperate.  And even as an untrained striker I think I can still do damage on the feet.  I think it is easier to be compatent on the feet then it is to be good on the ground.  I mean a lucky punch can knock you out but a lucky take down can only put you on the ground in most cases.


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## bart (Jan 4, 2003)

Hey There,

I've heard of that video where the Gracie guy says something to the effect of "so and so just realized he wasted 10 years learning karate". I've heard the stat too that says most fights end up on the ground. I was taking a law enforcement class at one time and I asked the professor about it. He looked up the FBI stat they used and it included battlefield casualties and shooting incidents. So I don't know how accurate that statement really is in the context of a fistfight. 

I worked as a bouncer and I can tell you that you don't want to ground fight in a crowd. There are cheap shotters, and your opponent's pals to deal with. While I was working that job it was back in '95, just about 2-3 years after BJJ started to hit it big in the US. I had a lot of guys shoot for my legs and they almost always ate pavement or dance floor. Also if someone doesn't know how to cover themselves when they come in, they may be able to eat the weaker punches, but if they get hit by a one-inch style punch or a short hsing-i style strike, they will pay. 

I think a lot of those karateka had a hard time because they tried to play the ground fight against a "ground fighter". I always focused on escape. I didn't try to fight the guy on his turf, but rather I focused on getting past him and then back on my turf in a stand up fight. Of course this was essential because there was never just one guy, like in the UFC, but rather 2 or 3 most often. I had a couple problems here and there, but never anything I couldn't handle. 

I think those karateka only wasted their time if they came to believe that ground fighting is the only fighting. Their stand up skills would probably carry them if they followed the advice of "stick with what you know". If you're not a grappler, then don't grapple.


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *I mean a lucky punch can knock you out but a lucky take down can only put you on the ground in most cases. *



I just read yet another story in the news of a fight (over beer at a party in this case) where a person hit someone in the head, they fell, and died (a week later) from head injuries suffered when their head hit the ground. I always emphasize to my students that you can die from falling from the height of your own head, and that a head punch rarely causes very serious damage directly but can do so indirectly.


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## Cliarlaoch (Jan 4, 2003)

In general, standing techniques are no more or less practical or useful than grappling techniques. As stated before, however, one of the primary foci of training in the martial arts for the sake of learning the art itself is the knowledge of how to fight and survive in a real fight without getting hurt oneself. A martial artist can rely on standing techniques, and if he or she is good enough, can take out his or her opponent quickly and without resorting to ground/grappling techniques and vice versa for grappling. However, I feel that if a martial artist is to be successful, he or she CANNOT rely on only one or the other. Yes, a karate practicioner should be good enough to take out his opponent quickly and probably on his feet, but to supplement and broaden that artist's skills, knowledge of groundfighting and grappling techniques is necessary. And here, I do not simply mean the sport of groundfighting or sports elements of grappling, where the goal is to pin an opponent or to make him or her tap out, but rather a focus on techniques that will stop your opponent cold or take him or her out of the fight. As always, the focus of training for the purpose of learning the martial arts (unless one is training specifically for sport) is to learn the art and learn how to apply it.

On another note, I for one would rather AVOID taking a knife or a hit in a fight, unless it was to prevent a greater hurt (ex: I would gladly take a knife wound to my hand in order to pull a knife away from my throat if someone was holding it to my neck). I'm prepared to take hits or injuries, but the best martial artists in the world are those who can emerge from a fight WITHOUT taking a hit at all. This also applies to groundfighting, not just standing arts, in that on the ground one should endeavour to avoid getting into positions that cause injury. The more you get hurt, the more you will continue to get hurt. To learn how to avoid injury and blows, one needs to train in the art seriously, learn its intricacies, and learn how to practically apply the art to all situations, or as many as possible. For this, sparring is a must, and I agree with several of the earlier comments that dojangs have erred in replacing sparring with more forms. It is only through fighting that one learns to fight. Before sparring, however, must also come the learning of the techniques. A proper standing artist, one who has learned his or her techniques properly should be able to counter whatever an opponent throws at him or her, and defeat the opponent without difficulty. That's the only difference between grappling and standing fighting styles, since both are effective if one trains properly: the skill of the artist in question. A good martial artist who recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of his art will know where he is weak and try to avoid situations that play to his weaknesses. To supplement the art, a martial artist SHOULD learn techniques from other styles that shore up his art's weaknesses, however, he should still try to maintain the strengths of his own art. In other words, don't learn something that hurts your own style.

In the end (since I know I'm rambling somewhat, here, but it's a fun topic, so I hope you'll all forgive me), a martial artist should learn how to apply her own style to as many different situations as possible through sparring and learning techniques through both forms and other forms of training, and she should also try to expand her own PERSONAL style (since everyone has a different body and way of fighting, and one shouldn't limit oneself by rigid stylistic strictures if it doesn't work for oneself) by incorporating other techinques. The only way to win a fight is to train well. It's not just about grappling or standing techniques, it's about how well you have trained in your own style and how well you have prepared yourself in your training for the practical needs you will encounter outside the dojang.

--Cliarlaoch

PS: By the way, GREAT TOPIC on this thread! Got my brain's old juices flowing! Thanks for putting it up!


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## yilisifu (Jan 4, 2003)

Listen to Cliarlaoch.  He's got it right!:asian:


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 6, 2003)

I think that the reason why some strikers have a problem with grapplers is because they give up too easily. They will get into an armbar or whatever very quickly, and then they have very little ways to get out of it while on the ground


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 6, 2003)

I think that the reason why some strikers have a problem with grapplers is because they give up too easily. They will get into an armbar or whatever very quickly, and then they have very little ways to get out of it while on the ground. I myself fought in a MMA local tournament and there were no rules just fight. When a grappler came after me i just kicked him in the face. He fell down. I was determined not to let him grab me, and he didn't. I am a pure striker. I think that there is nothing wrong with Karate. Just something wrong with some sensei's out there that don't teach practical self defense techniques because they are very very lazy. I am not trying to insult anyone by this post and I have lost to grapplers before. But normally whenever I lose it is because I did not do something properly and the grappler did. Or my opponent for that matter. There is a whole lot of hype on grappling right now because of the UFC. And that is fine but I do get tired of everybody thinking that striking is crap because some grapplers beat strikers. It's not a universal constant. That is my 2 cents.


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## ace (Jan 6, 2003)

Im shoping around for my Next MMA Fight
& am willing to travel


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 6, 2003)

It was like a fundraising event held for some charity. I just participated for the competition. I live in West Virginia and most MMA competitions are banned.


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## ace (Jan 6, 2003)




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## SRyuFighter (Jan 6, 2003)

No problem.


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## KennethKu (Jan 6, 2003)

Does anyone have any link to sites regarding Mas Oyama?


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## KennethKu (Jan 6, 2003)

BTW , shouldn't this thead  be in the Karate section?


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## JDenz (Jan 8, 2003)

No if you read the orginal post it was asking the MMA, BJJ guys why karate guys have a hard time dealing with grapplers


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *No if you read the orginal post it was asking the MMA, BJJ guys why karate guys have a hard time dealing with grapplers *



I never have.


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## KennethKu (Jan 8, 2003)

If they have a hard time dealing with grapplers, that is b/c they are more Karate stylists than true Karate-ka.  

Every grappler knows he will just eat a few whimpsical strikes to take you down. Once you are in his territory, he dominates. 

It used to be that makiwara was compulsory. I wander how many dojo in the West  bothers with it any more these days.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *  If they have a hard time dealing with grapplers, that is b/c they are more Karate stylists than true Karate-ka.  *





> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> * Every grappler knows he will just eat a few whimpsical strikes to take you down. Once you are in his territory, he dominates. *



"whimpsical" strikes?.......I don't think so....at least not by me.
Also, while we are standing he is in "my" territory.



> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *It used to be that makiwara was compulsory. I wander how many dojo in the West  bothers with it any more these days.
> *



I have never heard of it as "compulsory" in Okinawan/Japan......and only some not many use it here.


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## KennethKu (Jan 8, 2003)

The "whimpsical strikes" comment was in reference to the stylists who can't punch their way out of a paper bag, not to you.

The makiwara comment was derived from what others have asserted.  

In The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Master Nagamine asserts, "I do not know of any karate men who do not hit the makiwara." 

Masatoshi Nakayama,  when questioned about his training under Master Gichen Funakoshi, replied, "The training sessions under Master Funakoshi were very strict and rigid......and this was always followed by intense practice on the makiwara ..."

Choki Motobu, in his book Okinawan Kempo explains, "The method of using the makiwara developed at the Shuri Castle...makiwara training was the central focus point of their daily practice..."

Not that proves anything ,  other than that I didn't make it up.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *The "whimpsical strikes" comment was in reference to the stylists who can't punch their way out of a paper bag, not to you. *



I dont think I could fit in a paper bag. 



> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *The makiwara comment was derived from what others have asserted.
> In The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Master Nagamine asserts, "I do not know of any karate men who do not hit the makiwara."
> Masatoshi Nakayama,  when questioned about his training under Master Gichen Funakoshi, replied, "The training sessions under Master Funakoshi were very strict and rigid......and this was always followed by intense practice on the makiwara ..."
> ...



I see what you mean nowsometimes things get misconstrued on the Internet.
That sad part about the makiwara is many people dont do it anymore and of those that do end up hurting themselves from improper use and thereby propagating the myth that hitting the makiwara is bad for you.


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 9, 2003)

> The "whimpsical strikes" comment was in reference to the stylists who can't punch their way out of a paper bag, not to you.


lol Mr Kenneth n if u try the paper bag this it's hard to tear apart in one punch n i m dead sure to tear apart anyone with my punches ...
it happened when i thought i had decent punches(could get KOed in one punch)my teacher asked me to punch on Newspaper(in India the news paper quality is not that good except for the Entertainement part ) n guess wat i couldn't punched my way outta paper... i was purely embarrased n then i started working on it...
it's very hard to do it even if u hav good punching form ...


> That sad part about the makiwara is many people dont do it anymore and of those that do end up hurting themselves from improper use


hmm i hav seen ppl getting hurt using makiwara for punching(powerful) practice, but from wat i know it's very much about concentration/focus part of it not very sure tho...
any info?

-TkdWarrior-


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## KennethKu (Jan 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _.....That sad part about the makiwara is many people dont do it anymore and of those that do end up hurting themselves from improper use and thereby propagating the myth that hitting the makiwara is bad for you.




ikken hisatsu is not a popular goal, I suppose.


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## yilisifu (Jan 9, 2003)

Sadly, you're probably right.  Nowadays, it's about winning trophies and that sort of thing.  Most people likely won't even know what you're talking about.

   My students still practice the old way.


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## JDenz (Jan 9, 2003)

And I have never had any trouble with a karate guy or Kungfu guy or a traditional Japenese JJ guy.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *And I have never had any trouble with a karate guy or Kungfu guy or a traditional Japenese JJ guy. *




I think we have just proven it's the individual and not the art.


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## yilisifu (Jan 10, 2003)

Exactly.


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## Cliarlaoch (Jan 10, 2003)

I've worked the makiwara, and occasionally, I HAVE hurt myself... but that was my fault, not the board's. And I'm only 20... speaks volumes about how some dojangs are a lot better than others in terms of the types of training they let you do... heheh... and I'd add my own comments to the idea of taking a few hits, but I've already said my piece on that... except to say that I for one prefer not to sound like Rocky Balboa in Rocky V after he's taken one too many shots to the head.

Avoidance usually beats dogged persistance in a fight... unless of course it's nukes you're throwing around, since doing a sidestep probably wouldn't help you then, but I don't remember my instructor teaching me how to push little red buttons... that skill was kind of assumed to be possessed by all but the really unco-ordinated. And then again, I've never seen any styles that teach nuking beyond cooking courses on microwave safety. 

--Cliarlaoch

PS: Forgive my randomness, I feel goofy right now.


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 10, 2003)

It is the individual. Some grapplers probably havent had trouble with Strikers and vice versa.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 10, 2003)

> Victor comes from thousands of  hours of training meeting one moment of opportunity.



A sign I saw on the wall of my Gym


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## SRyuFighter (Jan 10, 2003)

Good motto.


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