# Can you learn from video?



## KPM

In my opinion....yes!  

First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?

Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit. 

Third, plenty of people have learned that have had limited exposure to the instructor.  Maybe they travel or the instructor travels and they received one on one instruction sporadically.  Now imagine you had video of those lessons that you could refer back to at will!  That is essentially what DVD instruction amounts to.

Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.

You are not going to learn advanced material very well from a DVD.  But most DVDs don't contain the system's advanced material anyway!

If you are already studying a specific martial art, then having instructional DVDs is great to help you remember things and review things multiple times, maybe pick up on things you missed in class, maybe see how a different instructor from your same system explains and does things a little differently, etc.

If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in.  But you have to have a partner.  Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo!   So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!


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## zuti car

99% of people will disagree with you .I think , smart people can learn from any source of information . dogs and stupid people need a coach with a stick in order to memorize some movements .


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## Kung Fu Wang

Can you learn this technique if you have some "basic MA training"? Of course people may argue about the definition of "basic MA training".


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## zuti car

It is a technique perforemd by using basic Judo principles , simillar(not the same ) to Uchi Mata or what ever is the name (i have practiced Judo 25 years ago so I forgot) If you know what to look you can see what they are doing


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## Danny T

Yes!
and 
No!
Depends on what one is attempting to learn and to what level of proficiency one is attempting to get through videos.

Some videos are far better in giving usable information than others. Same with schools and instructors.


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## yak sao

Part of the learning process has always been mimicking your teacher, so from that standpoint, video is an exceptional learning tool.
Not getting that much needed correction and feedback from a live instructor though is a big negative to me, and is why I think it's not always a good idea for a person with little to no experience to learn from video.

I use video from time to time by allowing students to video either themselves or me when they're learning something new. I  will even send them links of something from youtube that I think would be helpful.

All of this information at our fingertips has given us this false assumption of knowing. I will always be on the side of traditional learning...in other words, from a live teacher; with video being used as a learning tool.


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## yak sao

I had posted this on our group's facebook page some time ago on this very subject:


Remember the story of the dog walking across the bridge carrying a bone in his mouth? He stops and looks down at the water and sees his reflection. Only, he thinks it’s another dog with a different bone. So he opens his mouth to take the other dog’s bone, only to lose his bone in the water.
That’s kind of where we are in this crazy information age. We are living in a time where so much information is available at our fingertips that it boggles the mind. And while information can be a good thing, we can’t confuse information with truly knowing and understanding something.
Thanks to the internet, we are now able to view practically every fighting system known to man. The trouble is, there is so much info available to us that it has the potential to not only overwhelm us, it can paralyze us into inaction, or worse, ineffectiveness.

 Use exercise as an example. You can’t flip on the TV anymore without someone trying to sell you their latest, greatest way to a great physique. You buy the program and get into it and are doing pretty good with it until you see some infomercial for a “new, improved, better, faster, more scientific way to get into shape” So you quit the one you’re doing and hop on the bandwagon to the next one…and so it goes. All of this information has ungrounded us to the point where we aren’t happy with what we have. The best exercise program becomes the one that we’re not doing, and so, many times we end up not doing anything. We would be better off if we ignored all the cyber-noise and simply walked around the block and did a few calisthenics.
There’s a reason the old masters were so good at what they did….THEY DID IT. They didn’t read about it, they didn’t theorize about it over a keyboard or dream of “if only I could learn__________”. They took what was available to them, stayed the course and became very solid in their skills. True, times were different back then. The world wasn’t a keystroke away. The average person probably lived and died in a 30 mile radius of where they were born. But we can learn from their example. We can devote ourselves to getting very good at a select skill set, or we can delude ourselves into thinking we know something because we saw it on youtube.

As a WT student, don’t fall into the trap of becoming a technique collector, picking up this and that from various sources. If you do this you are taking what was designed to be streamlined and efficient and bogging it down. You are taking a sports car and putting a luggage rack on the top, or worse, pulling a trailer behind it. Don’t become preoccupied with learning a hundred different ways to get out of a lapel grab. Instead, concern yourself with internalizing a select few ways of dealing with a hundred different attacks. What’s the old saying?..…”don’t fear the man who knows a thousand different techniques, fear the man who has performed one technique a thousand times.”
To learn something fully, you have to immerse yourself in it. It has to become a part of you; you have to embody it. You have to experience it. You must spend time, energy, effort, sweat, bumps, bruises and blood. You need to push yourself; Train even when you don’t feel like it. Don’t let a day pass without doing something that takes you a little further down the path. You must take it from the abstract and make it real. You have to get it out of your head and into your body. That is the only way. There is no shortcut. 
That’s the difference between knowing about something and actually knowing it.
 That’s the difference between theory and pragmatism. That’s the difference between information and true knowledge.


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## Buka

Some can, I imagine it would depend on how familiar/experienced one is with the subject being watched. I've been doing it for a long while. There was a time when there wasn't an Internet. There was a time when there wasn't such a thing as a VCR. We used to take an 8mm home movie camera and film the television set, get the film developed (couple weeks) then play it on my buddy's mom's movie projector because it had a slow motion setting.

One time, in 79, we filmed Sugar Ray Leonard's fight against Andy Price on tv, we studied it over and over in slo mo. It taught us a lot. He hit Price with a twelve punch combination up against the ropes and that was that. In 1995 I met Ray in L.A at my instructor's gym and a group of us got to talking. The subject of combos came up and I said, "want to see the combo you hit a guy named Price with back in the day?"
I air punched it for him. He nearly fell over, asking, "how the hell do you know that?" I told him, we became gym friends, trained together and even did some Martial Arts together.

Yeah, you can learn from video.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Buka said:


> Yeah, you can learn from video.


Not only you can learn from video, you can learn from just words too. When my teacher told me that he used "inner hook" to take down someone in a challenge match. I asked him how did he set up his "inner hook". He told me, "I kneed him". The next day, I grabbed a partner and demonstrated in front of him the exactly combo move that he had used in that match.

If you understand the goal, when someone just give you a little bit of hint for your path, you should be able to find that correct path and reach to that goal.


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## futsaowingchun

KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?
> 
> Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.
> 
> Third, plenty of people have learned that have had limited exposure to the instructor.  Maybe they travel or the instructor travels and they received one on one instruction sporadically.  Now imagine you had video of those lessons that you could refer back to at will!  That is essentially what DVD instruction amounts to.
> 
> Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.
> 
> You are not going to learn advanced material very well from a DVD.  But most DVDs don't contain the system's advanced material anyway!
> 
> If you are already studying a specific martial art, then having instructional DVDs is great to help you remember things and review things multiple times, maybe pick up on things you missed in class, maybe see how a different instructor from your same system explains and does things a little differently, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in.  But you have to have a partner.  Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo!   So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!



IMO yes anyone can learn something from a GOOD video,but you have to realize have limitations,and you can only learn so much from a video.,Hands on training is the BEST and can never be substituted for the real thing.


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## tshadowchaser

learning from a video is possible.  The more you know about the subject the easier it is to learn from that video and the more you are able to get from it. 
Having said that I will say a good teacher is still the best way to go for there is so much that a viedo may not show and a teacher can tell you things the video will not


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## Eric_H

> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them? Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?



Money and self promotion, pure and simple.


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## Danny T

Eric_H said:


> Money and self promotion, pure and simple.


No problem with that; if the instruction is good.


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## Shai Hulud

Reviewing video footage/DVD instructionals can help you polish technique. There are aspects that you can always drill alone.

Still though, it goes without saying that you will make more gains with equipment and on-site expert advice to make corrections for you on the spot.


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## jezr74

I guess there is a chance you might get poor instruction from a teacher as well. Video is just another tool you can use, very good one imo when used along with your physical instruction.


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## Buka

If you're an experienced Martial Artist/fighter/athlete and you're a visual learner, film study should be something in your repertoire.

If it's not, ah, well, Cest' la vie.


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## Danny T

Buka said:


> If you're an experienced Martial Artist/fighter/athlete and you're a visual learner, film study should be something in your repertoire.
> 
> If it's not, ah, well, Cest' la vie.


I have my fighters spend a lot of study time reviewing training, sparring, and fight videos of themselves and of their opponents. Why? Cause they be a learning!!


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## Eric_H

> I have my fighters spend a lot of study time reviewing training, sparring, and fight videos of themselves and of their opponents. Why? Cause they be a learning!!



Filming yourself and studying it is of great benefit. These days I mostly use it to help fix my weightlifting form. However this is different than the OP about instructional DVDs etc.


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## Danny T

Eric_H said:


> Filming yourself and studying it is of great benefit. These days I mostly use it to help fix my weightlifting form. However this is different than the OP about instructional DVDs etc.


True but I also stated I have no problem with video instruction 'if' the instruction is good. I'n not saying that video instruction should be the only form of instruction but it can be an excellent supplement.


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## KPM

Danny T said:


> True but I also stated I have no problem with video instruction 'if' the instruction is good. I'n not saying that video instruction should be the only form of instruction but it can be an excellent supplement.


 
True Danny.  I didn't say it should be the only form of instruction either.  ;-)


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## Instructor

Great thread!  We've seen it here before time and again.  Usually though by now several naysayers have played devils advocate.  I teach with video's and also with skype various remote students.  In my humble opinion it simply isn't as good as real, live, local instruction, but for some it can work very well.  For others, not so much.  I can say my program has worked very well for some people and others have found it just isn't viable for them.


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## jezr74

@Instructor , when you teach via Skype, say a cross hand technique, do you have someone with you to demonstrate with? And does your online student have someone with them to show you how they apply?


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## Instructor

Yes.  It's impossible to learn hapkido without an uke.  I go to great lengths to ensure the students get real time feedback on their techniques. I usually utilize one of my local students as uke for demontration purposes but occasionally I have to review from home and I am not above recruiting family members to help out. We've even been exploring devices that keep the web camera pointed at a small remote hanging around my neck so that my hands are in view.


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## jezr74

Instructor said:


> Yes.  It's impossible to learn hapkido without an uke.  I go to great lengths to ensure the students get real time feedback on their techniques. I usually utilize one of my local students as uke for demontration purposes but occasionally I have to review from home and I am not above recruiting family members to help out. We've even been exploring devices that keep the web camera pointed at a small remote hanging around my neck so that my hands are in view.



Nice, I like hearing about how people are using technology with training. I can't wait to see what rises to the top over the next 5-10 years that can be used. eg. Oculus Rift, Kinect, Hololens etc.


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## senseiblackbelt

KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?
> 
> Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.
> 
> Third, plenty of people have learned that have had limited exposure to the instructor.  Maybe they travel or the instructor travels and they received one on one instruction sporadically.  Now imagine you had video of those lessons that you could refer back to at will!  That is essentially what DVD instruction amounts to.
> 
> Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.
> 
> You are not going to learn advanced material very well from a DVD.  But most DVDs don't contain the system's advanced material anyway!
> 
> If you are already studying a specific martial art, then having instructional DVDs is great to help you remember things and review things multiple times, maybe pick up on things you missed in class, maybe see how a different instructor from your same system explains and does things a little differently, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in.  But you have to have a partner.  Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo!   So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!





JowGaWolf said:


>




no u cant learn from video imho.

ur better off just going to a qualified tchr and learnin from there...


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## Dirty Dog

Generally speaking, you cannot make any real progress towards learning a martial art strictly by watching videos. 
Now, if you're experienced in a related art, you might be able to learn some things. My training is primarily ITF/KKW/MDK, and I'm pretty sure I could learn the formsets from other styles of TKD relatively easily. Of course, the system is more than just the forms, but I could learn *some* portion of the system.
On the other hand, I don't suppose I'd make any real progress toward learning something like Wing Chun or any other art with which I've had no experience.
Can videos, texts, etc be helpful as an aid to the student? Absolutely. But that's a totally different issue.


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## Tames D

senseiblackbelt said:


> no u cant learn from video imho.
> 
> ur better off just going to a qualified tchr and learnin from there...


Of course you're better off with a qualified teacher. But the thread is 'Can You Learn From Video?'. So maybe you can't, but I sure can.


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## Kung Fu Wang

A: How did you defeat him in that challenge match?
B: I used my knee to strike on his leg. When he steps back, I hooked his other leg, pushed on his neck, and took him down.

If you can you learn from this simple Q&A, you should have no problem to learn from video.


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## KPM

KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?
> 
> Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.
> 
> Third, plenty of people have learned that have had limited exposure to the instructor.  Maybe they travel or the instructor travels and they received one on one instruction sporadically.  Now imagine you had video of those lessons that you could refer back to at will!  That is essentially what DVD instruction amounts to.
> 
> Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.
> 
> You are not going to learn advanced material very well from a DVD.  But most DVDs don't contain the system's advanced material anyway!
> 
> If you are already studying a specific martial art, then having instructional DVDs is great to help you remember things and review things multiple times, maybe pick up on things you missed in class, maybe see how a different instructor from your same system explains and does things a little differently, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in.  But you have to have a partner.  Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo!   So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!



As I pointed out in the OP, there are lots of different ways to approach instructional DVDs that can be valuable.   If you are a Black Belt in a given martial art and see a video of someone from the  same martial art but different teacher that does something a little differently from you but still gives you a new perspective on a certain technique....have you not "learned" from that video???


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## marques

One thing more.
Different instructors, even within the same style and same level, may value different things or teach same thing in different ways, or... and the beginner will just get more confused than before starting.
For the ones who says it works, I hope you have chosen _one_ instructor, have the opportunity to train with people (anyway) and the opportunity to measure results.
Personally, I like videos to add something new to my practice (or to remember when not training), rather than replacing personal instruction.


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## KPM

No one has argued that video instruction can completely replace personal instruction.


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## Charlemagne

As a supplement to live training, video can be an excellent tool, particularly if one has trained for a while and has a solid understanding of the principles of the system.  I have used video instructional in the past to get an idea of what types of questions to ask my instructor, or perhaps to round out some things which were not focused on as much as I was hoping in my live class.  Also, as someone else noted, it could be used to see what a particular martial art looks like, which might help with a decision making process about what you do or do not want to learn.  Finally, for the purpose of film study, this is an absolute yes.  Watching someone you are going to fight on film can be a great benefit, just like it can for all sport.


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## Bill Mattocks

No.


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## geezer

Bill Mattocks said:


> *No.*



I'd agree as far as trying to learn from video _alone._ On the other hand, as KPM, Buka, and others have said, video can be a great supplement to live, in-person instruction. And, for advanced practitioners, ideas gleaned from videos can really be helpful. At least that's my experience.

The real problem for me is that watching videos (as well as reading books, and discussing technique verbally) and trying to apply the material with some reasonable semblance of functionality is _way more work,_ and _way_ _more boring, _than training in class under your instructor. And then you _still _need to run it by your instructor to get it right. 

One thing I've noted as a student whose instructor lives 1,000 miles away, is that if you _have to_ figure things out yourself, even though you may need to get the details polished later, you will really understand the material more deeply than students who simply mimic an instructor without knowing why they are doing what they do. ...Of course having some decades of experience in the art is helpful too.


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## geezer

senseiblackbelt said:


> *no u cant learn from video imho. ur better off just going to a qualified tchr and learnin from there.*..



What?!? 

Clearly we can extend this debate beyond martial arts training. As I high school teacher I feel that direct "seat-time" in a class, face to face with a good teacher is far better than learning online, even with relatively simple topics like spelling and grammar!


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## geezer

Of course, there are autodidacts who have achieved greatness. It is however, rare.


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## Kung Fu Wang

geezer said:


> As I high school teacher I feel that direct "seat-time" in a class, face to face with a good teacher is far better than learning online, even with relatively simple topics like spelling and grammar!


The EE course "Logic Design of Digital Systems"  that

- you learn one chapter in the book,
- you go to school and take exam for that chapter,
- you then study next chapter in the book,
- ....

There are some lab involved but the book study is done all by yourself. I don't think MA learning is any more difficulty than electric engineer "circle design" self-study. 

Many self-study classes that you read a book, write a report at the end of semester. You then get credit for it.


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## Andrew Green

Of course you can learn from video, it's a question of how far and how fast you can progress.  There are some things that can be taught by video, and other things that can't.  You can't "feel" pressure through a video, you can't see how a inch difference makes something work vs not.  Having someone that has experience make those tiny corrections and be able to feel how it should work by training with someone experienced is not something you can get from video.  So a principle that might be shown to you and understood conceptually in a few minutes in live training may take months or years of trying to reinvent the wheel when training with inexperienced people only from video.

Once you have a solid grasp of those principles video becomes far more useful for learning knew things.  Until then it's best used as a reference to remind you of things you learnt in class.


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## geezer

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - ....There are some lab involved but the book study is done all by yourself. I don't think MA learning is any more difficulty than electric engineer "circle design" self-study. Many self-study classes that you read a book, write a report at the end of semester. You then get credit for it.



Nearly 25 years ago, I did a self-designed self-study to learn Spanish without taking more classes. I began using using old high school textbooks, reading Spanish comic books, then novels (eventually almost everything by Garcia-Marques, Isabel Allende, even Paco Ignacio Taibo, etc.) listening to cassette tapes, and to a lot of Spanish language radio, watching novelas, old movies on VHS, ...of course shows like _Chespirito _(see my signature), spent as much time as possible time engaging native speakers in conversation, and taking several vacations in Mexico ...always skipping costly plane tickets and riding Mexican buses instead. I eventually got good enough to take "DANTES" tests and earn 12 additional college credit hours in Spanish and ace the official state bi-lingual exam to be certified bi-lingual on my Arizona State secondary teaching certificate. Something I ended up never using, though. Widespread anti-immigrant sentiment has changed the way "ELLs" (English Language Learners) are taught, so I became a full time Visual Arts teacher instead.

Anyway, I agree that granted ability, or in my case, desire and dogged _determination_, you can learn a lot on your own. Unfortunately, with lack of practice and reinforcement, I've found _you can also forget it. _

...Now regarding my remarks which you quoted above on spelling and grammar. Those were a direct response to the quote at the top of my previous post, #35.


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## Phobius

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The EE course "Logic Design of Digital Systems"  that
> 
> - you learn one chapter in the book,
> - you go to school and take exam for that chapter,
> - you then study next chapter in the book,
> - ....
> 
> There are some lab involved but the book study is done all by yourself. I don't think MA learning is any more difficulty than electric engineer "circle design" self-study.
> 
> Many self-study classes that you read a book, write a report at the end of semester. You then get credit for it.



Big difference in saying it is possible to learn theoretical knowledge from a book, and learning muscle and body movement from a video. Problem is, you can not learn Wing Chun by someone talking about it to you. You can however learn about circle design through listening alone...

So there is a difference between theory and practical application.


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## Charlemagne

Motor skills are different than studying for an exam, so that is important to consider.  Just like mental practice can be a good supplement to actual practice, so can video.  I would stipulate however that we are talking about using video to then work on in physical and mental practice sessions.  Just watching a video, not so much.


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## Bill Mattocks

geezer said:


> I'd agree as far as trying to learn from video _alone._ On the other hand, as KPM, Buka, and others have said, video can be a great supplement to live, in-person instruction. And, for advanced practitioners, ideas gleaned from videos can really be helpful. At least that's my experience.
> 
> The real problem for me is that watching videos (as well as reading books, and discussing technique verbally) and trying to apply the material with some reasonable semblance of functionality is _way more work,_ and _way_ _more boring, _than training in class under your instructor. And then you _still _need to run it by your instructor to get it right.
> 
> One thing I've noted as a student whose instructor lives 1,000 miles away, is that if you _have to_ figure things out yourself, even though you may need to get the details polished later, you will really understand the material more deeply than students who simply mimic an instructor without knowing why they are doing what they do. ...Of course having some decades of experience in the art is helpful too.



Sure you can learn, incorrectly. I guess that's learning!


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## KPM

So what do you do if you are really interested in learning a martial art that is relatively rare and unavailable in the US?  In my case I got in touch with my Sifu and built a relationship on-line.  He was convinced of my sincerity, and so provided me with video to start studying.  Since I had a pretty extensive background in Wing Chun, picking up on motions on video of a similar martial art wasn't a big problem.  Then I filmed footage of myself going through the forms and send them to my  Sifu for comment and feedback.  Rinse and repeat.  Then I scheduled a trip to Hong Kong for hands on training.  Since I had already learned the sequence of the form from video I didn't have to start from scratch.  I just needed corrections to what I had been working on.  This was a huge advantage over trying to learn everything from scratch at that initial visit.  Then I trained the 2 man drills with Sifu and filmed them for quick reference and reminder when I got home.  I also filmed Sifu teaching and demo'ing the next form on several different occasions.   I pick up things relatively easily when watching on video because I can think and visualize in 3 dimensions.  But I'm sure I'm not all that special.  

So I don't know about you, but I can assure you that I can learn from video!


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## Kung Fu Wang

You can learn by your own logic as well. Assume we just use front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, foot sweep (A1, A2, A3, A4) and jab, cross, hook, uppercut (B1, B2, B3, B4) as building block.

How many combination can we come up with?

- A1, A1
- A1, A2,
- A1, A3,
- A1, A4,
- A1, B1,
- A1, B2,
- A1. B3,
- A1, B4,
- A2, ...

You will have a total of 8 x 8 = 64 combinations. Some combos make sense but some combos may not make sense. Do you need a MA teacher to show you all those 64 combinations, or you can figure out all those combinations by yourself?


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## Hyoho

There is little to be learned from video instruction. Can you really be so narcissistic as to watch your own video and say. "That was good"? 

When I watch a video I can usually see all the things someone should NOT be doing in my particular fields. So for this reason it is a good tool to watch other people that wish to progress, then comment and suggest to them what to work on.


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## geezer

Hyoho said:


> When I watch a video I can usually see all the things someone should NOT be doing in my particular fields. So for this reason it is a good tool to watch other people that wish to progress, then comment and suggest to them what to work on.



IMO using video this way is quite valuable, and has been so used for decades by professional coaches in all kinds of sport and activities. My DTE escrima coach would often get sick of correcting us and not having us understand what he was complaining about, so he'd grab a phone, record us and then play it back so we could see our mistakes as he saw them. Humbling, but useful!


----------



## geezer

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sure you can learn, incorrectly. I guess that's learning!



I don't really get where your negativity is coming from, Bill. Everybody learns imperfectly at first. Then, under the watchful eye of an instructor, and through practice. a lot of practice, we get better. Hopefully, at least.

Using video to help the process along is acceptable. Unfortunately for me, most of the material I am training is not available on video. But if it were available and could help me see my errors, I'd use it.


----------



## anerlich

You can't learn too much from watching videos alone.

In the early days of Jiu Jitsu, some previously untrained people got pretty good by watching videos and practising with their friends in a garage.

These days, I have seen a few guys with no jiu jitsu training come to class and already have some decent basic knowledge which serves as a foundation for training. Some even just watching UFC and BJJ competition videos.

Most serious Jiu Jitsu guys have learned a ton from videos. All the 50/50 guard stuff I do came exclusively from video. My guard has definitely improved from implementing things I learned from video. I've usually got a few vids on the go at any time and am working stuff from them on the mat.


----------



## anerlich

Hyoho said:


> There is little to be learned from video instruction. Can you really be so narcissistic as to watch your own video and say. "That was good"?



I don't think many do that. They watch video to see their own mistakes and where they can improve.



Hyoho said:


> When I watch a video I can usually see all the things someone should NOT be doing in my particular fields. So for this reason it is a good tool to watch other people that wish to progress, then comment and suggest to them what to work on.



Your particular fields must have a small number of participants, or you are watching a lot of poor videos.


----------



## geezer

anerlich said:


> You can't learn too much from watching videos alone.
> 
> In the early days of Jiu Jitsu, some previously untrained people got pretty good by watching videos and practising with their friends in a garage.
> 
> These days, I have seen a few guys with no jiu jitsu training come to class and already have some decent basic knowledge which serves as a foundation for training. Some even just watching UFC and BJJ competition videos.
> 
> Most serious Jiu Jitsu guys have learned a ton from videos. All the 50/50 guard stuff I do came exclusively from video. My guard has definitely improved from implementing things I learned from video. I've usually got a few vids on the go at any time and am working stuff from them on the mat.




I watched some basic BJJ videos, tried out the moves with a friend and _I *learned *something hugely important._


...namely that my knowledge of grappling (based on wrestling as a kid and later, WT anti-grappling) is _woefully inadequate_, and that I would really like to add REAL BJJ (learned in person under a good instructor) to what I know. Considering my age (about the same as yours, Anerlich --I'll turn 61 next month) and my limited free time these days, that may not happen. But at least, when I get a student who in interested in having a decent ground game, I don't try to sell them on WT anti-grappling. Instead I know who to send them to!


----------



## Mr.J

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sure you can learn, incorrectly. I guess that's learning!


Thats why its like writing a good paper multiple sources are the best it allows you to study it from a multitude of angle which you can then add into to build of that skill.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Can you learn this "arm drag counter" by watching the following clip? What can you learn from this clip?

- Your opponent tries to pull you toward north west, instead of yielding into the north-west, or resisting toward the south east, you attack the north east direction instead.
- You try to jam your opponent's leading leg to prevent him from moving toward your right and behind.
- You have to react fast before your opponent can pull you and force your weight to be shifted onto your right leading leg. It's hard to pull up your leg and move toward your north east after that.
- ...


----------



## Mr.J

KPM said:


> So what do you do if you are really interested in learning a martial art that is relatively rare and unavailable in the US?  In my case I got in touch with my Sifu and built a relationship on-line.  He was convinced of my sincerity, and so provided me with video to start studying.  Since I had a pretty extensive background in Wing Chun, picking up on motions on video of a similar martial art wasn't a big problem.  Then I filmed footage of myself going through the forms and send them to my  Sifu for comment and feedback.  Rinse and repeat.  Then I scheduled a trip to Hong Kong for hands on training.  Since I had already learned the sequence of the form from video I didn't have to start from scratch.  I just needed corrections to what I had been working on.  This was a huge advantage over trying to learn everything from scratch at that initial visit.  Then I trained the 2 man drills with Sifu and filmed them for quick reference and reminder when I got home.  I also filmed Sifu teaching and demo'ing the next form on several different occasions.   I pick up things relatively easily when watching on video because I can think and visualize in 3 dimensions.  But I'm sure I'm not all that special.
> 
> So I don't know about you, but I can assure you that I can learn from video!



Which branch of wing chun i ask because i am attempting to gain a grasp of the basics. I think that no one branch is truly the original form of wing chun. But if all are combined they get close to what wing chun originally was. I could be wrong.. But i digress i need people to review what i do and point out anything that may help.


----------



## KPM

^^^^^  What you need to do is locate a good teacher that is within an acceptable traveling distance.  Pay him a visit with a good video camera and record the lesson.  Then go home and find a training partner and start working through the material that you have recorded.  Or get the teacher to recommend some commercially available instructional DVDs to work from and that the teacher himself follows relatively closely.   Return for training as often as you can and in between trips record what you are working on with your video camera and send it to your teacher for feedback.  But you have to have a like-minded training partner at home to work  with.  You cannot learn Wing Chun or any martial art solo.


----------



## Mr.J

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  What you need to do is locate a good teacher that is within an acceptable traveling distance.  Pay him a visit with a good video camera and record the lesson.  Then go home and find a training partner and start working through the material that you have recorded.  Or get the teacher to recommend some commercially available instructional DVDs to work from and that the teacher himself follows relatively closely.   Return for training as often as you can and in between trips record what you are working on with your video camera and send it to your teacher for feedback.  But you have to have a like-minded training partner at home to work  with.  You cannot learn Wing Chun or any martial art solo.


Thats unlikly to happen. No car no money.... And the closest instructor of WC is.... 16 miles away. As for a partner to work with that will only happen after a become some what proficient with siu lim tau....


----------



## Bill Mattocks

geezer said:


> I don't really get where your negativity is coming from, Bill. Everybody learns imperfectly at first. Then, under the watchful eye of an instructor, and through practice. a lot of practice, we get better. Hopefully, at least.
> 
> Using video to help the process along is acceptable. Unfortunately for me, most of the material I am training is not available on video. But if it were available and could help me see my errors, I'd use it.


I'm not trying to be negative. I agree everyone learns imperfectly at first. A competent instructor keeps a student from locking errors in. A video offers no feedback.

And the difference between correct and incorrect can be do small as to be invisible to a video camera.

What videos have given me have been ideas. A rough sketch. An outline. Far far short of a usable technique.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Mr.J said:


> Thats unlikly to happen. No car no money.... And the closest instructor of WC is.... 16 miles away. As for a partner to work with that will only happen after a become some what proficient with siu lim tau....



Find a way, or do not. Part of the training is finding a path, then getting and staying on it.


----------



## Mr.J

Bill Mattocks said:


> Find a way, or do not. Part of the training is finding a path, then getting and staying on it.



I already am. Whether a instructor is part of it is still to be determined. Whether people with knowledge choose to aide in is also undetermined. Me continueing inspite of that is not.


----------



## Buka

Bill Mattocks said:


> No.



Learning from video probably means different things to different people. Can a novice learn from a video alone? I doubt it, but I've never seen that situation.

Think about _your_ instructor for a minute, think about the people who are teaching you. If you showed them a video that showed and explained a technique that countered something they did, do you think they would pick up on it? Or would they be lost?

If your instructor's teacher sent him a video related to what it is that _you_ are doing, do you think your instructor would understand?

If a good video was a tutorial, put together well, by the folks who are teaching you, do you think you could understand them and learn anything? Especially if it concerned something that went along with what you are already familiar with?

If your instructor had a few hours of video of me training and fighting, and showed it to you, along with his advice and training, do you think it could help you prepare for a match with me if he was helping you by using it as a teaching tool? I think you would learn some of my weaknesses and probably overpower me and run me right into next week. 

Give me an hour of you training and fighting and I'll close one eye and keep my right hand on my butt. You'll never touch me, you'll be too busy trying to get up.

Even if you can't use video yet, my guess is a student of your calibre eventually will.


----------



## anerlich

geezer said:


> I watched some basic BJJ videos, tried out the moves with a friend and _I *learned *something hugely important._
> 
> 
> ...namely that my knowledge of grappling (based on wrestling as a kid and later, WT anti-grappling) is _woefully inadequate_, and that I would really like to add REAL BJJ (learned in person under a good instructor) to what I know. Considering my age (about the same as yours, Anerlich --I'll turn 61 next month) and my limited free time these days, that may not happen. But at least, when I get a student who in interested in having a decent ground game, I don't try to sell them on WT anti-grappling. Instead I know who to send them to!



There's still time. A 70 year old guy started at our gym a couple of weeks ago. He has some judo in his past, but felt he was a bit old for that many heavy falls. Even if you just learn enough to get toward blue belt level, you'll have a solid understanding of the basics.


----------



## anerlich

Mr.J said:


> Thats unlikly to happen. No car no money.... And the closest instructor of WC is.... 16 miles away. As for a partner to work with that will only happen after a become some what proficient with siu lim tau....



I think you need to sort out the money thing and a car before worrying about Wing Chun. Videos cost money too. Well, if you obtain them legally.

People with knowledge may choose to help you, but they generally are more receptive to to people who try to meet them at least halfway, and try to help themselves.

I train at three places, and they are all further away than 16 miles. Yes, I have a car. I worked at a job and found I could afford one. Quite a few people do that.

I get to one place by public transport weekly and could get to one of the others that way if I had to. One place I go to would be tough (getting from Pennant Hills to Manly in Sydney) without a car, but if I had no car, I'd just go to the other places more often instead.

Georges St Pierre used to catch public transport from Canada to train Jiu Jitsu in New York with Renzo Gracie and John Danaher on weekends when he was a teenager. His English was crap in the beginning also.

Everyone who has had some success in martial arts has generally faced some significant challenges, financial, physical, or otherwise. I can't think of a single black belt or red/gold sash I train with who hadn't encountered and overcome some significant obstacles.


----------



## dudewingchun

I like using video to supplement learning from my teacher in person. It is quite easy to get an information overload and only remember bits and pieces but going home and watching videos on the same stuff I learnt and being able to replay it multiple times makes it easier for me to remember it permanently, it also develops deeper understanding imo.


----------



## anerlich

My WC instructor has made some vids, but IMO anyone outside the lineage would find them fairly useless as Wing Chun varies so enormously. I use them mainly for reference and occasional inspiration.

Jiu Jitsu, I've got great video guidance from some top instructors I'd be lucky to meet otherwise. John Will, Carlos Machado, Ryan Hall amongst my favourites. Jiu Jitsu varies enormously as well, and there are "styles" and "lineages" but for some reason they still seem to work well if blended together.

I often see higher belts learning stuff from lower belts - the technical range is so vast, no one can become an expert at every aspect. Well, not in the first 31 years at black belt anyway. I do it a lot myself.

Individual expression starts a lot earlier along the path in Jiu Jitsu. For some WC guys, it seems to never happen, often it seems by choice.

Whoa, I just got promoted to yellow. Woo hoo!


----------



## Vajramusti

anerlich said:


> I think you need to sort out the money thing and a car before worrying about Wing Chun. Videos cost money too. Well, if you obtain them legally.
> 
> People with knowledge may choose to help you, but they generally are more receptive to to people who try to meet them at least halfway, and try to help themselves.
> 
> I train at three places, and they are all further away than 16 miles. Yes, I have a car. I worked at a job and found I could afford one. Quite a few people do that.
> 
> I get to one place by public transport weekly and could get to one of the others that way if I had to. One place I go to would be tough (getting from Pennant Hills to Manly in Sydney) without a car, but if I had no car, I'd just go to the other places more often instead.
> 
> Georges St Pierre used to catch public transport from Canada to train Jiu Jitsu in New York with Renzo Gracie and John Danaher on weekends when he was a teenager. His English was crap in the beginning also.
> 
> Everyone who has had some success in martial arts has generally faced some significant challenges, financial, physical, or otherwise. I can't think of a single black belt or red/gold sash I train with who hadn't encountered and overcome some significant obstacles.


---------------------------
agree


----------



## wckf92

Video is excellent to draw ones awareness to something (in the absence of a trained/qualified SiFu). For example, most people don't or won't watch their feet during MYJ work. So, set up a camera and record the entire footwork area of the jong, from the knees down...then grab a beer and watch your feet for any mistakes!


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  What you need to do is locate a good teacher that is within an acceptable traveling distance.  Pay him a visit with a good video camera and record the lesson.  Then go home and find a training partner and start working through the material that you have recorded.  Or get the teacher to recommend some commercially available instructional DVDs to work from and that the teacher himself follows relatively closely.   Return for training as often as you can and in between trips record what you are working on with your video camera and send it to your teacher for feedback.  But you have to have a like-minded training partner at home to work  with.  You cannot learn Wing Chun or any martial art solo.


Lol, I can just see you walking into any serious dojo in Japan and ask to take a video.


----------



## Hyoho

anerlich said:


> I don't think many do that. They watch video to see their own mistakes and where they can improve.
> 
> 
> 
> Your particular fields must have a small number of participants, or you are watching a lot of poor videos.



If you can see how many mistakes have been made best not make video in the first place unless its for your own personal use. Certainly not to post as a teaching tool.

Yes its usually one person performing a particular waza or two people doing free or match practice against each other. Different to actually being there but it shows up distinct problems that can be overcome. After forty years of teaching/training and helping get two teams through to win all Japan Championship I have that ability. Correcting just one mistake sometimes helps with a multitude of other problems.


----------



## KPM

Hyoho said:


> Lol, I can just see you walking into any serious dojo in Japan and ask to take a video.



I walked into a "serious" school in Hong Kong and it was no problem.  Sounds like the "serious" Karateka need to take a step into the 21st century.


----------



## marques

KPM said:


> No one has argued that video instruction can completely replace personal instruction.


But some people are looking for that, because next school is too far away, incompatible schedules and so on. And if there is demand... there is offer.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

I have not been able to reply in the detail I would like, because I was posting from the hospital where my wife has been a patient since Friday.  She is home now, and I have a few minutes.

No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video (or a book).  Nothing but bad form, anyway.

What text and video do is show you gross movements.  This is a block.  This is a punch.  Etc.  Even if the person modeling the movements is themselves an expert, a non-expert who is watching or reading is going to miss a great many of the details.  Details which are more than just important, they make up the the difference between a good technique and one which frankly does not work.  Even in the dojo, an instructor demonstrates a technique and then has to go around to each student, examining their posture, balance, and so on.  They will test a block, for example, and make minute adjustments so that it works for that person; and most of us know that each person is different in that respect, so there is no 'one size fits all' block, etc.

I also believe that repetition of bad form results in bad technique locked in more or less permanently, so it's more destructive than learning nothing at all.

Buka mentioned that experts and advanced students can probably learn from video in a way that a novice cannot, and this might be true, especially if it involves one's own style of martial arts, where the 'details' are worked out and well-understood.  For example, a minor change in the steps of a bo kata, where the kata itself is already well understood.  However, I suspect that if the instruction were to involve a different art completely, where the details of balance, stance, breathing, and God knows what else are different, it would be just as bad as if a beginner was viewing it.

Buka also mentioned the notion of watching a fight video and learning how another person fights, in order to defend against them.  I agree completely; but this is not what I was referring to.  I was referring to instruction.

For those who disagree with me, I understand, but I'm not going to change my mind.

This is not the first time we've had this particular thread or one just like it.  And it's always the same thing.

Beginner whines (yes, whines) and cries about how he or she cannot possibly find time to get actual training.  It's too far away, it costs too much, the instructor is mean, it's too hot, it's too cold, blah blah blah blah.  Well suck it up, buttercup.  Find a way to get proper training, or do not.  It's not up to the rest of the world to make things easier on you.  You want training, you find a way.  That's part of becoming a martial artist; if you haven't got the ability to figure this out, then you are probably money ahead to have not started training anyway, because you'd quit and have a butt-load more excuses why it didn't work out for you.

Another problem with books and videos is that no one actually trains.  That's right, I'm saying it.  You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies.  You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again.  That's how it works.

Don't tell me you watch the video every day and train for two hours daily by yourself using the video and the books and so on, because you don't.  OK, I'm just saying that.  You can say you do, fine, whatever, but I don't believe it for one second.  It's like all the exercise equipment at the garage sales that has clearly never been used.  People buy it with the best of intentions and then hang clothes on it.

Video training is not training.  It's wishful thinking.

If you want to train, figure out a way to do it.  If you can't, I'm sorry.  There isn't any substitute.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Some random thoughts...

Video instruction can be quite valuable. I can honestly say that instructional videos played a major part in helping me earn my BJJ black belt.

Just watching videos isn't going to get you anywhere. By the same token, if you just sat and watched live classes at the dojo without ever participating you wouldn't develop any skills either. You have to put in the work either way.

Practicing what you see in the videos is necessary, but some sort of feedback to make corrections is also important. If you don't have an instructor handy, then that feedback will have to come from your training/sparring partners. The better training partners you have, the better feedback you will get.

Some people are visual learners and will be able to get more from video instruction than those who are not.

The more experience you have, the more you will be able to learn from video. The more specific that experience is to the material being covered, the more you will be able to learn. In BJJ I have enough experience that sometimes I can watch a video, then go in to the gym next day and be tapping people out in sparring with what I've learned from that video. In contrast, I'm a beginner in Wing Tsun, so I'm able to absorb a lot less from watching a WT video and need more hands-on guidance to fully understand what I'm seeing. I'm *highly* skeptical that a novice will have the ability to develop usable martial arts skills primarily through video instruction.

There is a huge range in the quality of video lessons from an instructional standpoint. Many top notch practitioners are terrible at structuring a video lesson so that you can pull anything usable from it. Others are brilliant at organizing the material, making sure you can see everything clearly, explaining the details that make the techniques work, warning of pitfalls, and offering training and troubleshooting tips.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Another problem with books and videos is that no one actually trains. That's right, I'm saying it. You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies. You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again. That's how it works.



I guess I'm no one then. I watch videos, drill the moves with a training partner, discover any parts which seem rough, go back to check the video to see if I can spot the problem, drill some more, try the moves in sparring, then go back to the video again to see if I can catch details I've been missing in application. I also use video to discover refinements on techniques I've been practicing for years. I also use videos to gain insights into concepts and principles which inform all aspects of my training.

I generally train about 10-12 hours per week on the mats*. On top of that, I would guess that I average a couple of hours per week studying video. (That's sort of a wild guesstimate. Some weeks I don't look at video at all. Other weeks I might watch 6+ hours worth.)

*(Or on wood floors or in the back yard or wherever.)


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> I guess I'm no one then. I watch videos, drill the moves with a training partner, discover any parts which seem rough, go back to check the video to see if I can spot the problem, drill some more, try the moves in sparring, then go back to the video again to see if I can catch details I've been missing in application. I also use video to discover refinements on techniques I've been practicing for years. I also use videos to gain insights into concepts and principles which inform all aspects of my training.
> 
> I generally train about 10-12 hours per week on the mats*. On top of that, I would guess that I average a couple of hours per week studying video. (That's sort of a wild guesstimate. Some weeks I don't look at video at all. Other weeks I might watch 6+ hours worth.)
> 
> *(Or on wood floors or in the back yard or wherever.)



Think about who you are, versus the "it's too far to go to a dojo" person.  There are worlds of difference.  Worlds.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Bill Mattocks said:


> Think about who you are, versus the "it's too far to go to a dojo" person.  There are worlds of difference.  Worlds.


I agree. I was just responding to "_no one actually trains_." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.

*(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree. I was just responding to "_no one actually trains_." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.
> 
> *(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)



Gotcha.  Yes, that's who I meant.  I should have clarified.  I stand corrected.


----------



## KPM

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree. I was just responding to "_no one actually trains_." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.
> 
> *(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)




Exactly.  One has to be careful with "sweeping  statements."  What Bill said may apply to some people, but definitely not to everyone!


----------



## geezer

Bill Mattocks said:


> Gotcha.  Yes, that's who I meant.  I should have clarified.  I stand corrected.



And, a lot of what you said had the ring of truth about it. Harsh, but true. For example: 



Bill Mattocks said:


> You buy the video, you watch ten minutes of it while sitting on the couch eating cookies. You stand up and imitate a couple moves, you decide you've got it, and you never watch the video again. That's how it works.



Been there, done that. Including the part about the cookies. 

And I really cringed when you said this:



Bill Mattocks said:


> It's like all the exercise equipment at the garage sales that has clearly never been used. People buy it with the best of intentions and then hang clothes on it.



I'm not sure if I'm bothered more by my guilt for not using that pull-up bar/dip/roman-chair contraption any more, or by wondering how Bill got a look into my garage!!! 

BTW, my wife is one hanging clothes on those things. I drew the line when she started hanging things on my wooden dummy.


----------



## KPM

^^^ But here's the rub Steve.   I can post and say that it IS possible to learn from video.  I'm living proof.  But obviously that is NOT to say that ANYONE can learn from video.  But someone cannot post and say "No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video" with any kind of validity because several people have posted on this thread pointing out how it is indeed possible to learn from video.  This is the problem with sweeping statements.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

KPM said:


> ^^^ But here's the rub Steve.   I can post and say that it IS possible to learn from video.  I'm living proof.  But obviously that is NOT to say that ANYONE can learn from video.  But someone cannot post and say "No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video" with any kind of validity because several people have posted on this thread pointing out how it is indeed possible to learn from video.  This is the problem with sweeping statements.



When I assist in our dojo with teaching kids, I spend a lot of time on basics.  Even such things as punching a bag correctly can be quite difficult to learn.  They watch me demonstrate.  They attempt to do what I do.  They lean forward, they get off-balance, they don't drop their weight, they don't bend their knees, they chicken-wing their punch, they don't use their hips, their feet are all wrong, etc.  But they are *certain* that they are doing it just like I am.

_[NOTE: As an aside, teaching is a great way to catch your own mistakes.  Sooner or later, you'll see someone doing something odd and find out after investigation that they did indeed imitate you perfectly after a long while.  They imitated your mistake that you didn't know you were making either.]_​
And that's with me there to provide instant feedback, and to make adjustments.  They eventually get it.  Some sooner, some later.

But now do that with a video.  No feedback.  They see, they do.  Incorrectly, that's how they do.  And they are certain they are doing it just like the video.

Not their fault.  This is human nature.

But it completely blows up the notion that a person can teach themselves martial arts from a video.

As has been pointed out, I am referring to beginners here.  But it would be the same for me if I were to start trying to learn a new type of martial art from video.  All I can do is imitate what I see and hope I am doing it the way I think I am seeing it.  Without proper instruction and feedback, I am probably wrong.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Bill Mattocks said:


> As an aside, teaching is a great way to catch your own mistakes. Sooner or later, you'll see someone doing something odd and find out after investigation that they did indeed imitate you perfectly after a long while. They imitated your mistake that you didn't know you were making either


Yes indeed!


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree. I was just responding to "_no one actually trains_." I suspect you are correct with regards to the "too far to go to a dojo" people*, but they aren't the only ones looking for video instruction.
> 
> *(I can't say I know for sure, since they never make it to the dojo and so I never meet them in person to judge whether they've been practicing anything from their videos, but it's probably a reasonably safe bet most of them haven't.)


Yeah, but Tony c'mon man, you are training with real teachers all the time, and putting in the work and the hours needed.  Whatever video instruction you have had has really been supplemental, and that is absolutely realistic.


----------



## KPM

^^^^  But Tony did indeed "learn from video."  Again...the problem with sweeping statements!


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ^^^^^  What you need to do is locate a good teacher that is within an acceptable traveling distance.  Pay him a visit with a good video camera and record the lesson.  Then go home and find a training partner and start working through the material that you have recorded.  Or get the teacher to recommend some commercially available instructional DVDs to work from and that the teacher himself follows relatively closely.   Return for training as often as you can and in between trips record what you are working on with your video camera and send it to your teacher for feedback.  But you have to have a like-minded training partner at home to work  with.  You cannot learn Wing Chun or any martial art solo.


I am skeptical of the reception in most schools, if someone walked in and asked to start filming.  Or, if they said yes, then I would be skeptical of the material they allowed you to film.  

I am having difficulty believing that a sifu would allow that, without first becoming a serious face-to-face student and establishing a strong teacher-student relationship, and that can take years to do.

I don't run a school, but if someone approached me with such a request I would never agree. And it's not a matter of being "traditional" or secretive.  It is a matter of pedagogy and understanding the building blocks of the system, and that I would need to help someone actually build those foundational skills.  It simply doesn't work to just drop in.

If someone wants to learn from me, then I decide if I am willing to teach him or her.  It is as much a commitment by me, as the other person.  We need regular time together to train and do it right.  And that needs to be worked into a busy schedule.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ^^^^  But Tony did indeed "learn from video."  Again...the problem with sweeping statements!


Sure, and pretty much all if us agree that supplemental video is a good tool if one has real training with real teachers and a solid foundation.  Under those circumstances, there are certain things that can be learned from video, and in that context I have also learned things from video.

But starting as a beginner, where the primary or only instruction is video, well no, I don't buy it.  And neither do I buy it with occasional visits to a teacher, where the video is still the primary instructor.  Trying to learn a system in that way leads to shallow mimickery, but most people doing it believe they are pretty good.


----------



## Vajramusti

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, and pretty much all if us agree that supplemental video is a good tool if one has real training with real teachers and a solid foundation.  Under those circumstances, there are certain things that can be learned from video, and in that context I have also learned things from video.
> 
> But starting as a beginner, where the primary or only instruction is video, well no, I don't buy it.  And neither do I buy it with occasional visits to a teacher, where the video is still the primary instructor.  Trying to learn a system in that way leads to shallow mimickery, but most people doing it believe they are pretty good.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did not learn from videos though good ones can sometimes confirm what you learn imo.


----------



## Flying Crane

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I did not learn from videos though good ones can sometimes confirm what you learn imo.


Sure, but you would not even know what you are looking at in a video if you had not received the good training and instruction that you had.


----------



## EvanWinther

Learning in person is better but

When I was learning hook kicks I was taught them and I practiced lots 
I wanted to get a lot better at them and I found a great video on practice techniques which helped a lot


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, but Tony c'mon man, you are training with real teachers all the time, and putting in the work and the hours needed.  Whatever video instruction you have had has really been supplemental, and that is absolutely realistic.


Well, the original question was "can you learn from video?", not "can you learn from just video exclusively?"

I actually started seriously studying from video during a period  of a year or two where I was between dojos. I had earned my black belt in the Bujinkan, but had drifted away due to a combination of being burned out on the politics and feeling like I was missing something. I ran an ad in the local alt-weekly looking for training/sparring partners and ordered a selection of VHS videotapes, including a series by Renzo Gracie and Craig Kukuk. (This was before there were any qualified BJJ instructors in the Midwest.)

I managed to find a handful of training partners who had a few years experience in one art or another but who were between regular schools as I was. By working with them, I was able to learn a few BJJ basics well enough that I was able to pull them off in sparring. (It should be noted that none of my sparring partners were grappling specialists or physical beasts. They were mostly low-level boxers, karateka, or kung fu practitioners.)

After that I ended up enrolling in a school that taught an offshoot of Danzan Ryu jujutsu (Yudansha Fighting Systems) and got to grapple with people who actually had experience. I found my prior video training (and my Bujinkan experience) gave me a head start, but not a huge one. I did continue to study videos during this time and found it helpful. Having more class instruction and experience allowed me to get more benefit from the videos.

Eventually I ended up training BJJ with an actual instructor. Since then, video instruction has been a major supplement to my time spent in the dojo. I'd venture to say that a large percentage of the senior BJJ students I've trained with have made extensive use of studying both instructional videos and competition footage.  I don't necessarily recommend it so much for beginning students, because they tend to be going through brain overload already with everything they're being taught in their regular classes and they don't need the distraction.


----------



## Vajramusti

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, but you would not even know what you are looking at in a video if you had not received the good training and instruction that you had.


------------------------------------------------
True.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, the original question was "can you learn from video?", not "can you learn from just video exclusively?"
> 
> I actually started seriously studying from video during a period  of a year or two where I was between dojos. I had earned my black belt in the Bujinkan, but had drifted away due to a combination of being burned out on the politics and feeling like I was missing something. I ran an ad in the local alt-weekly looking for training/sparring partners and ordered a selection of VHS videotapes, including a series by Renzo Gracie and Craig Kukuk. (This was before there were any qualified BJJ instructors in the Midwest.)
> 
> I managed to find a handful of training partners who had a few years experience in one art or another but who were between regular schools as I was. By working with them, I was able to learn a few BJJ basics well enough that I was able to pull them off in sparring. (It should be noted that none of my sparring partners were grappling specialists or physical beasts. They were mostly low-level boxers, karateka, or kung fu practitioners.)
> 
> After that I ended up enrolling in a school that taught an offshoot of Danzan Ryu jujutsu (Yudansha Fighting Systems) and got to grapple with people who actually had experience. I found my prior video training (and my Bujinkan experience) gave me a head start, but not a huge one. I did continue to study videos during this time and found it helpful. Having more class instruction and experience allowed me to get more benefit from the videos.
> 
> Eventually I ended up training BJJ with an actual instructor. Since then, video instruction has been a major supplement to my time spent in the dojo. I'd venture to say that a large percentage of the senior BJJ students I've trained with have made extensive use of studying both instructional videos and competition footage.  I don't necessarily recommend it so much for beginning students, because they tend to be going through brain overload already with everything they're being taught in their regular classes and they don't need the distraction.


Alright, fair enough tho I still point out that you had reasonable level of experience with martial arts, as a shodan in bujinkan.  I often feel that prior experience in another system is as likely to be a liability when learning something new as it is an asset, but that can really depend a lot on the two systems in question.

Perhaps video instruction in a hands-on method like BJJ might have a greater success rate than one like wing chun that has a fairly abstract foundational approach that gets a lot of work before the hands-on training gets going. I still would never recommend it, but don't deny it can be helpful under certain circumstances.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Flying Crane said:


> Alright, fair enough tho I still point out that you had reasonable level of experience with martial arts, as a shodan in bujinkan.



I think my prior Bujinkan experience did help a lot, even though it was in a different art. It gave me a certain degree of body awareness and understanding of some of the basic principles behind joint locks. If I had tried learning from the same videos back when I first started martial arts, I don't think I would have managed to learn anything of use. (At least not from those particular videos, since they just demonstrated individual techniques without explaining context and principles.)



Flying Crane said:


> Perhaps video instruction in a hands-on method like BJJ might have a greater success rate than one like wing chun that has a fairly abstract foundational approach that gets a lot of work before the hands-on training gets going.



BJJ has an advantage in that the most important criteria is "does it work", not "does it work while following the specific form or philosophy dictated by a particular style."

When I started studying BJJ through video, I learned a basic arm bar from guard at a crude level and was able to make it work in sparring against some hobbyist martial artists who had no grappling background.

When I started training in YDS, I was sparring with people who knew how to grapple and I had to refine the arm bar to make it work on them. Live instruction, videos, and sparring all helped me to make that refinement.

When I started training BJJ, I was sparring people who understood armbars at a higher level and I had to refine the same technique further.

In my current situation, I get to spar everybody from complete novices to black belt judoka to wrestlers to professional fighters who know all the same moves I know. If I want to make my arm bar (or any other technique) work against those higher-level opponents, I have to be much more refined in how I apply the technique, when I apply the technique, how I set it up, and how I combine it with other techniques. I've been shown a lot of different ways to apply that same arm bar by different instructors (both in person and on video). I take what I've been shown and put in the experimental mat time to discover what works for me (and what works for other people against me). That personal research time on the mat is what makes it all functional.

I'm withholding commentary on the WC until I get more experience so I'm not spouting misinformation. Maybe in another year or so I'll have something worthwhile to offer on the subject.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Sometime video clips can help you to look at some areas that you may not paid enough attention before. For example, you may have trained the wrestling "arm drag", but have you train how to counter an arm drag? A video clip can help you to find out your own weakness.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> .
> 
> But starting as a beginner, where the primary or only instruction is video, well no, I don't buy it. .



And again, no one in this thread has proposed that.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> And again, no one in this thread has proposed that.



Yes, you did:



KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> ...
> 
> An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.
> 
> ...
> 
> Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.
> 
> ...
> 
> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area..
> 
> ...
> 
> ... So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!



There is more where it's implied, but I isolated the blatant sections.


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> I walked into a "serious" school in Hong Kong and it was no problem.  Sounds like the "serious" Karateka need to take a step into the 21st century.


Do they? I have no idea. I gave up Karate back in the 70's


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> ^^^ But here's the rub Steve.   I can post and say that it IS possible to learn from video.  I'm living proof.  But obviously that is NOT to say that ANYONE can learn from video.  But someone cannot post and say "No, I do not believe you can learn martial arts from video" with any kind of validity because several people have posted on this thread pointing out how it is indeed possible to learn from video.  This is the problem with sweeping statements.


So show us some of your videos so we can see the living proof


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?


Money, recognition, fame, narcissism?


----------



## anerlich

Nothing wrong with money. All but some ascended masters and breatharians have to eat.

Some people actually like to share knowledge.

I'd imagine some non-video instructors also seek money, recognition, and fame, and some are narcissists, as well. The medium is but a multiplier of what the intentions were.


----------



## Flying Crane

Hyoho said:


> Money, recognition, fame, narcissism?


Because a sucker is born every minute.


----------



## Blindside

I am on record on this forum saying I think video training is not a good idea for beginners to try to learn an art.

That said, most of my training in the past oh, five years has been by video.  I am too far from my instructors to get regular instruction in any format.  I have a great connection with my instructors and get video copies of their seminars and sometimes private lessons with other instructors.  I also use instructional videos of associated arts to aid in development of my fighting skills.  I can say without question that I am a better more technical fighter now than I was five years ago, and have expanded my fighting "game" in the past two years with double stick fighting almost solely based on video.  

I have a goal of doing a couple of staff fights 10 months from now, and while I have some basic training with staff it is beginner level at best.  I have something like 2 hours of in person staff training beyond one kenpo kata that I cannot call decent staff training.  The rest of my exposure is video and will continue to be video.     

I think video is a very useful tool for some practitioners once they have their fundamentals.

Lamont


----------



## KPM

^^^^  Exactly.  But watch out!  Hyoho won't believe you and will ask for video proof!


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, you did:
> 
> 
> .




Well, if you read my entire post you would see that I went on to say this:

*  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Well, if you read my entire post you would see that I went on to say this:
> 
> *  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


Of course I read your entire post.  You say a number of things.

Among which is that someone can get their primary training from video.

You've got it backwards.  training with a good instructor comes first, and then video can be used as a supplement/reference source.  Not the other way around.

And it really depends on what video you use, not just whatever you find on the Internet, put together by some random person who is not connected to your school or lineage.  Because there will be inconsistencies and that really does make a huge difference.  I doubt you have the depth of background to understand that, but it is true, like it or not.


----------



## Vajramusti

Flying Crane said:


> Of course I read your entire post.  You say a number of things.
> 
> Among which is that someone can get their primary training from video.
> 
> You've got it backwards.  training with a good instructor comes first, and then video can be used as a supplement/reference source.  Not the other way around.
> 
> And it really depends on what video you use, not just whatever you find on the Internet, put together by some random person who is not connected to your school or lineage.  Because there will be inconsistencies and that really does make a huge difference.  I doubt you have the depth of background to understand that, but it is true, like it or not.


--------------------------------------------
Good reply


----------



## KPM

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------
> Good reply




You really think so?  I'm done talking with idiots.


----------



## Vajramusti

Name calling!!


----------



## KPM

Vajramusti said:


> Name calling!!




Allow me to quote from Mr. "Flying Crane":

* I doubt you have the depth of background to understand that, but it is true, like it or not.*

He knows nothing about me.  So again, I'm done talking to idiots.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Allow me to quote from Mr. "Flying Crane":
> 
> * I doubt you have the depth of background to understand that, but it is true, like it or not.*
> 
> He knows nothing about me.  So again, I'm done talking to idiots.


Well, the fact that you are advocating for video instruction in this way supports my assertion.


----------



## Xue Sheng

KPM said:


> Allow me to quote from Mr. "Flying Crane":
> 
> * I doubt you have the depth of background to understand that, but it is true, like it or not.*
> 
> He knows nothing about me.  So again, I'm done talking to idiots.



You may want to read these before you continue

MartialTalk.com Forum Rules and Procedures


----------



## Phobius

When I started training I first decided after long time thinking and researching to learn WC. Once I knew and waited for new semester/class to start I studied a lot of videos, instructional, in great detail trying to learn and do what they showed. 

Result was wasted, whatever advantage I had of learning movements was neglected by me questioning any and all teaching that was not resembling the videos. 

Took a while to realize I was wrong because I refused to grasp that I need to learn A before I learn B, thinking I already knew C.

Doubt I lost anything by doing it but doubt also any gain. Would be better of focusing on cardio and  calisthenics training instead.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Phobius said:


> When I started training I first decided after long time thinking and researching to learn WC. Once I knew and waited for new semester/class to start I studied a lot of videos, instructional, in great detail trying to learn and do what they showed.
> 
> Result was wasted, whatever advantage I had of learning movements was neglected by me questioning any and all teaching that was not resembling the videos.
> 
> Took a while to realize I was wrong because I refused to grasp that I need to learn A before I learn B, thinking I already knew C.
> 
> Doubt I lost anything by doing it but doubt also any gain. Would be better of focusing on cardio and  calisthenics training instead.



Bingo.  I have given similar advice for someone who posted wanting to know what they should do in the months before they were able to move to a new location and start their martial arts training.  Shadow box, get in shape, skip rope, stretching exercises.  Be ready to receive the instruction once you begin training, physically and mentally.


----------



## geezer

KPM said:


> I'm done talking with idiots.



Ha, I'll believe that when I see it.  ....er,  maybe that should be _when I read it?_  Whatever. Anyway Keith, you spend _more time talking to idiots_ on this forum than just about anybody ...even me. And you know the idiots I'm talking about. 

Objectively, I can say that Joy (Vajramusdi) spends the least time talking to idiots of anybody here. I mean have you seen how little he posts lately .

But seriously, calling people _idiots_ does not elevate the level of discourse on this forum. That's what the ignore feature is for.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

If you don't know how to deal with

- arm drag,
- over hook,
- under hook, 
- ...

where will you obtain such information besides trying to Google and find online DVDs?


----------



## KPM

Seems quite strange to me that someone can mis-state what I wrote in my OP and when I point out to him that this isn't what I  said he turns around and insults me, yet I am the one being chastised for pointing out he is being an idiot?


----------



## KPM

Phobius said:


> When I started training I first decided after long time thinking and researching to learn WC. Once I knew and waited for new semester/class to start I studied a lot of videos, instructional, in great detail trying to learn and do what they showed.
> 
> Result was wasted, whatever advantage I had of learning movements was neglected by me questioning any and all teaching that was not resembling the videos.
> 
> .



Not everyone's experience is the same.  It depends upon the individual.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Seems quite strange to me that someone can mis-state what I wrote in my OP and when I point out to him that this isn't what I  said he turns around and insults me, yet I am the one being chastised for pointing out he is being an idiot?


I did not mis-state what you posted.

And I did point out that you do not understand this stuff.  That is crystal clear from your posts.  It is not an insult.  It is not a judgement of you as a person.  It is an observation of fact.


----------



## Juany118

KPM said:


> You really think so?  I'm done talking with idiots.



I have to agree to though.  My Sifu had to relearn a lot, right down to SLT when he started learning under the Lineage of GM William Cheung.  Also, without that instructor watching you can have mistakes corrected.  Starting with videos can result in having a lot of bad habits.  I don't know about you but I find it harder to "deprogram" inappropriate muscle memory and replace it with good than to simply start from scratch. 

Once you have the foundation down then videos can be used to augment what you already know.


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> You really think so?  I'm done talking with idiots.


Good answer and you prove a good point. You might be able to learn M.A from a video but you obviously cant learn the character building qualities that go with it. Nothing like a good free practice to knock people down to size. Videos dont hit you back. Now please show us YOUR video.


----------



## Dylan9d

I think you can learn something from videos, people can learn from books so why not from videos. 

The thing is, that practical application isn't a thing you can learn on your own from a video, so to a certain extent yes....


----------



## KPM

Juany118 said:


> I have to agree to though.  My Sifu had to relearn a lot, right down to SLT when he started learning under the Lineage of GM William Cheung.  .




Interesting comment, given that Keith Mazza has a quite extensive "correspondence course" of videos that would obviously start well before the student had a chance to visit him for hands on training.


----------



## KPM

Hyoho said:


> Good answer and you prove a good point. You might be able to learn M.A from a video but you obviously cant learn the character building qualities that go with it. Nothing like a good free practice to knock people down to size. Videos dont hit you back. Now please show us YOUR video.



   This thread seems to have attracted all kinds of .......shall we say.....logic challenged individuals!


----------



## Juany118

KPM said:


> Interesting comment, given that Keith Mazza has a quite extensive "correspondence course" of videos that would obviously start well before the student had a chance to visit him for hands on training.



I really don't see the relevance.  It's a business, he knows they will sell.  Simply because you produce and sell something doesn't mean it is the preferred method.


----------



## KPM

Juany118 said:


> I really don't see the relevance.  It's a business, he knows they will sell.  Simply because you produce and sell something doesn't mean it is the preferred method.



And again....no one has said it is the "preferred" method....only that it is a workable method.  At least for some people.  So yes, it does have relevance.   If Keith Mazza didn't think it was a workable method, he wouldn't offer it.  He does not strike me as someone that is just in it for the money or for "narcissism" as some here have claimed for people that produce videos.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> This thread seems to have attracted all kinds of .......shall we say.....logic challenged individuals!


Indeed, it has.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> And again....no one has said it is the "preferred" method....only that it is a workable method.  At least for some people.  So yes, it does have relevance.   If Keith Mazza didn't think it was a workable method, he wouldn't offer it.  He does not strike me as someone that is just in it for the money or for "narcissism" as some here have claimed for people that produce videos.


Look, you go about your own training in whatever way you want.  if you are satisfied with the results, then keep at it.  Do what works for you, and nobody can, or wants, to stop you from doing that.

However, if you come on here and try to sell this notion that video instruction as anything but a supplemental tool to quality instruction directly with a good teacher, then I and others here who know better are going to challenge what you say.  If you try to sell this idea to others, we are going to point out the falsehood in the sale so that some beginner who is looking for guidance in getting started and might stumble onto this thread might see the truth of the matter. 

Do what you want for yourself.  But when you start offering bad advice, expect to be challenged.


----------



## Flying Crane

Dylan9d said:


> I think you can learn something from videos, people can learn from books so why not from videos.
> 
> The thing is, that practical application isn't a thing you can learn on your own from a video, so to a certain extent yes....


Learning a martial art from a book is even worse than from a video.


----------



## Jaeimseu

While far from optimal, I think you can absolutely learn from video under certain circumstances. I think learning the basics of something like BJJ is possible, assuming you are working with partners who enable you to test what you are learning. I also think you would need to be disciplined enough to not try to learn too much at one time. 

Like others have said, it's a great supplement. I used video a ton when I started training BJJ. It was an excellent way to review techniques at home. And I'm using videos now to keep things fresh in my mind since I can't attend classes at the moment. 

I can even remember watching the UFC back in the early 90s and "rolling" with some other guys who had no grappling experience. While not "mastering" anything, I was able to get good enough at a few basic techniques to pull them off against resisting opponents with no experience or similar experience. Twenty years later it made the first couple weeks of training with a real instructor a lot easier. 

So really, I think the question should be a personal you instead of a general you. Can YOU learn from video? I can, and have. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Do what you want for yourself.  But when you start offering bad advice, expect to be challenged.



Does anyone else here believe that in my OP that started this thread I was offering bad advice???


----------



## KPM

zuti car said:


> 99% of people will disagree with you .I think , smart people can learn from any source of information . dogs and stupid people need a coach with a stick in order to memorize some movements .




Looking back, maybe Zuti's comment is more appropriate than I first thought!


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Looking back, maybe Zuti's comment is more appropriate than I first thought!


See?  You really don't understand any of this stuff.  Meh, do what you want.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> See?  You really don't understand any of this stuff.  Meh, do what you want.



Ah contrare....perhaps it is you with limited understanding.  Plenty of people have posted on this thread in support of the idea that it is possible to benefit from video.


----------



## wckf92

KPM said:


> Plenty of people have posted on this thread in support of the idea that it is possible to benefit from video.



I posted my .02
[emoji16] 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


----------



## Grenadier

It's apparent that some folks will not agree with each other on this topic.  That's fine, and there's no issue with attacking someone's message.  

However, I'm simply going to ask y'all to refrain from the snipes at the one bearing the message...


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Ah contrare....perhaps it is you with limited understanding.  Plenty of people have posted on this thread in support of the idea that it is possible to benefit from video.


I'm sure that must be it.  My mistake.


----------



## Hyoho

KPM. I would have thought it had attracted some people who know what they are talking about. Show us your video please to back up your premise. Who you are and what you are does not show in your profile. For all we know we could be conversing with a keyboard warrior. Nothing in my profile either but if people read over some of my old posts they know who I am anyway and there are some on here that I teach.


----------



## Buka

I think Flying Crane and KPM agree on one key point "supplemental".

I know, there I go thinking again.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

Jaeimseu said:


> I think you can absolutely learn from video under certain circumstances.


Agree with you 100% there.

If you (general YOU) can't learn this technique from the following video within 10 minutes, you should

- get a rope,
- find a quite place, and
- hang yourself, 

You have only 2 arms and 2 legs. Your opponent also only has 2 arms and 2 legs. How complicate can any MA technique be?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Buka said:


> I think Flying Crane and KPM agree on one key point "supplemental".
> 
> I know, there I go thinking again.



No, that can't be right. If that was the case, there would be no one left for them to call idiots and say they won't talk to anymore, before replying again.


----------



## Buka

God, we are all so passionately nuts.


----------



## geezer

zuti car said:


> ...dogs and stupid people need a coach with a stick in order to memorize some movements .



A coach with a _stick _is just what I needed....

When I took up Escrima. 


But then I have a ton of his videos too. I don't watch them very often, but when I do they bring back to mind so many things he said or showed us. I don't know if that's learning or just re-learning, but it really helps me.


----------



## KPM

Hyoho said:


> KPM. I would have thought it had attracted some people who know what they are talking about. Show us your video please to back up your premise. Who you are and what you are does not show in your profile. For all we know we could be conversing with a keyboard warrior. Nothing in my profile either but if people read over some of my old posts they know who I am anyway and there are some on here that I teach.




And just who the heck are you!??  Don't recall even seeing you in this forum before.  Regulars here know who I am, and have seen me on video.  But seeing me on video has nothing to do with my premise.    Idiots abound!


----------



## KPM

Buka said:


> I think Flying Crane and KPM agree on one key point "supplemental".
> 
> I know, there I go thinking again.



Absolutely Buka!   I tried to point that out to "Flying Crane", but he wouldn't see it.  Instead he feels the need to make a disparaging comment about my background (which he knows nothing about). 

And I will ask again....did anyone other than Flying Crane think I was giving people bad advice in my OP that started this thread??


----------



## wckf92

KPM said:


> Absolutely Buka!   I tried to point that out to "Flying Crane", but he wouldn't see it.  Instead he feels the need to make a disparaging comment about my background (which he knows nothing about).
> 
> And I will ask again....did anyone other than Flying Crane think I was giving people bad advice in my OP that started this thread??


Actually, I just remembered a situation where I learned from video. Wasn't kung fu related though. Many years ago I bought some kettlebells, and several of Pavel's instructional DVD's and taught myself. 


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Hyoho

.


----------



## anerlich

KPM said:


> Absolutely Buka!   I tried to point that out to "Flying Crane", but he wouldn't see it.  Instead he feels the need to make a disparaging comment about my background (which he knows nothing about).
> 
> And I will ask again....did anyone other than Flying Crane think I was giving people bad advice in my OP that started this thread??



Not me.

If you can learn from video, good for you!

If you can't, my condolences. That would suck.

Does any of this matter? Not really.


----------



## anerlich

wckf92 said:


> Actually, I just remembered a situation where I learned from video. Wasn't kung fu related though. Many years ago I bought some kettlebells, and several of Pavel's instructional DVD's and taught myself.



I did the same with Steve Maxwell. If you know anything about Steve, you'll know he's not into money or narcissism.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Absolutely Buka!   I tried to point that out to "Flying Crane", but he wouldn't see it.  Instead he feels the need to make a disparaging comment about my background (which he knows nothing about).
> 
> And I will ask again....did anyone other than Flying Crane think I was giving people bad advice in my OP that started this thread??


I've acknowledged the value of video as a supplementary tool for learning.  You however, have refused to admit that part of your message was that video is a viable primary source.  That is where we differ.


----------



## Vajramusti

Flying Crane said:


> I've acknowledged the value of video as a supplementary tool for learning.  You however, have refused to admit that part of your message was that video is a viable primary source.  That is where we differ.


--------------------------------------------------
Videos can be useful for learning many things. But as a primary tool for learning good wing chun, I don't think so. Havent we done this discussion enough?


----------



## wckf92

anerlich said:


> I did the same with Steve Maxwell. If you know anything about Steve, you'll know he's not into money or narcissism.


Cool. Yeah he also has some good stuff! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------
> Videos can be useful for learning many things. But as a primary tool for learning good wing chun, I don't think so. Havent we done this discussion enough?


There is always somebody new who wants to come in and do it again.  It is tiresome.


----------



## Grenadier

Maybe I wasn't clear enough during my previous post...  

*Admin's note:*

Please keep this conversation civil.  Failure to follow the guidelines will result in warning points being issued.


----------



## Dylan9d

Flying Crane said:


> Learning a martial art from a book is even worse than from a video.



I never mentioned learning martial arts from a book.

Docters learn medicine from books, but then they only know theory what they lack is the practical application. Thats why they internships and thats were they get their practical knowledge

So im not saying it is better learning from video or books than from a teacher.....

Books are there for educational purposes so are videos.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Dylan9d said:


> Docters learn medicine from books, but then they only know theory what they lack is the practical application. Thats why they internships and thats were they get their practical knowledge.



That's really not how it works. Hell, we had a cadaver to work on for A&P even when I was an undergrad. Yes, there is a ton of didactic learning, but that's mostly aimed at memorizing data, learning things like cluster thinking, and interactions at levels that cannot be directly observed (easy example: you cannot watch the kreb cycle, but you certainly cannot learn much about human physiology without understanding it). You can certainly learn formulas and such from books. But practical application starts long before internship. It just gets more intense, with increasing levels of responsibility and independence, after the degree is earned.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

You can't depend on your MA teacher to hold on your hands for the rest of your life. Soon or later, your MA teacher will pass away and you will be alone and you have to depend on yourself.

Some people may say that to train at home by yourself will build up bad habit. IMO, unless you are a beginner, not to train at home is a bad habit by itself.

Again, how do we define a beginner? 1 year experience? 5 years experience? or 10 years experience?


----------



## KPM

^^^^ I have likely learned more by having to go home and think about what I was taught, remember it, analyze it, and practice it, than I have learned during the time I  spent directly with the teacher.   And then having to teach it to someone else!  That's when you really learn and develop your understanding!


----------



## Phobius

KPM said:


> ^^^^ I have likely learned more by having to go home and think about what I was taught, remember it, analyze it, and practice it, than I have learned during the time I  spent directly with the teacher.   And then having to teach it to someone else!  That's when you really learn and develop your understanding!



That has nothing to do with the topic. Your teacher shows and corrects your movements. After practice you contemplate on what was said. 

With video you would not have teacher input on your actions to reflect on.


----------



## KPM

^^^^ True.  I was just agreeing with John on the importance of putting in the "flight time" and practicing on your own.


----------



## Flying Crane

Dylan9d said:


> I never mentioned learning martial arts from a book.
> 
> Docters learn medicine from books, but then they only know theory what they lack is the practical application. Thats why they internships and thats were they get their practical knowledge
> 
> So im not saying it is better learning from video or books than from a teacher.....
> 
> Books are there for educational purposes so are videos.


Well yes, there are plenty of things that can be learned from books.  Martial arts are not among them.


----------



## Dylan9d

Flying Crane said:


> Well yes, there are plenty of things that can be learned from books.  Martial arts are not among them.



Can I ask your background? How long are you training and/or teaching? Just out of interest


----------



## Dylan9d

KPM said:


> ^^^^ I have likely learned more by having to go home and think about what I was taught, remember it, analyze it, and practice it, than I have learned during the time I  spent directly with the teacher.   And then having to teach it to someone else!  That's when you really learn and develop your understanding!



Exactly, mimicking a teacher is so easy and will suit the needs of the casual martial artist. But for me personally, I got alot of basic and advanced techniques but the most advanced stuff comes from exploration and training by yourself.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

KPM said:


> ^^^^ True.  I was just agreeing with John on the importance of putting in the "flight time" and practicing on your own.


I'm always interested in the "roundhouse kick". One day I saw a MT "roundhouse kick" clip that the power come from 45 degree downward force. When you use it to kick your opponent's head, you should not kick your opponent's head on the way up but on the way down. That mean you have to kick higher than your opponent's head.

I suddenly realized that I didn't train my "roundhouse kick" hard enough. That clip just open my eyes because my long fist teacher had never taught me that. Even if I may spend another 20 years in my long fist system, I still don't think I will be able to figure that out by myself.

An online clip is like a mirror. It can tell you what you have, and what you don't have.


----------



## Tames D

KPM said:


> And I will ask again....did anyone other than Flying Crane think I was giving people bad advice in my OP that started this thread??


I didn't see any bad advice in the OP.


----------



## Flying Crane

Dylan9d said:


> Can I ask your background? How long are you training and/or teaching? Just out of interest


I have been training since 1984 and have a background in several methods.  I no longer train in any but the one:Tibetan white crane.  I have done some teaching informally, but do not run a formal school.

I have also made attempts to learn by reading books and thru video.  Both methods lead to nothing, although I did manage to learn to mimick a couple forms thru instructional video.  It was shallow mimicry, and nothing more.  It is not a good way to go about it.


----------



## JP3

Phobius said:


> That has nothing to do with the topic. Your teacher shows and corrects your movements. After practice you contemplate on what was said.
> 
> With video you would not have teacher input on your actions to reflect on.


.
I use video reinforcement all the time, and we use video referencing quite a bit.

Reinforcement, as I've used it here, is literally picking up my smartphone, flipping on the video mode when Student A is working on something, usually with Student B. It's not working for them, and I can see why, but they can't "feel' the why I'm explaining because they don't even know what it is they are feeling for yet.

So... I play back the video and point it out to them. Then mimic their flaw, show the negative outcome, then show the correction and (hopefully) am then able to demonstrate the preferred outcome of whatever it is.  Sometimes to get people to feel what it is you very much have to use what my teacher called "Training Hands" and grasp the person and corral their movement into a certain path or position.

Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.

Next, working on - insert random kata technique name - we often will, since the instructor who originally taught me/them the kata is in another state, and sometimes memory fails everyone... we'll pull up the video of said kata technique and the discussion surrounding it, watch it together (obviously with different levels of understanding) and then go practice.

Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.

IMO... trying to learn a technique with which you've had absolutely no physical experience with first... is a very uphill task.  If all you have is a book, I wish you luck. If you've video of good quality, at least you get more of the data, though it's not live and interactive. Better, but not great.

Sometimes, I wish we could just download it, matrix-style... Ha!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Rather than just arguing "yes you can" "no you can't", it might be fruitful to look at the different avenues of learning and consider the relative advantages/disadvantages of video vs. in-person instruction.

*Learning through visual emulation*: Instructor demonstrates movements and the student imitates those movements. This is one of the primary learning methods in just about every art. For this, video has a potential advantage over traditional classroom instruction. A well shot video will allow you to see the techniques clearly from multiple angles and the student can replay the video over and over as often as he/she likes.

*Learning via verbal explanation:* The instructor explains the concepts, context, principles, and/or fine details behind the techniques being taught. No major advantage that I can see here for video or in-person instruction. I've seen instructors in both formats who are really good at explaining stuff and others who are terrible at it.

*Learning via personal correction:* This is the biggest potential advantage of in-person instruction. No video can point out the flaws in your technique that you aren't aware of. It should be noted however that many instructors are terrible at this. I've personally witnessed teachers who just aren't good at providing effective feedback to students and I've heard stories of various famous teachers who (by my criteria at least) didn't seem to be very good at it. Reasons could include temperament, poor communications skills, favoritism (only offering real feedback to preferred students), overly large class sizes, or other factors.  Nevertheless, I've seen students advance and improve even under instructors who provide little in the way of effective correction and feedback.

*Learning through tactile emulation*: This is the other potential big advantage of in-person instruction. Actually feeling the technique of a skilled practitioner as he/she applies it to you can clarify things in a way beyond the capacity of visual or verbal instruction. No video can provide that. Unfortunately, there are plenty of schools out there where the instructor doesn't spar with students and only demonstrates techniques on select ukes. I've seen students improve in those schools as well, so as desirable as this form of learning is, it's apparently not completely indispensable.

*Learning through solo repetition and personal exploration:* This is the process of performing thousands of kicks or punches or forms or other movements on your own without constant correction from an instructor. This is a vital part of learning an art whether you are training under a live instructor or from video. Robotic repetition is not the goal. The student needs to constantly self-monitor to observe the quality of his/her balance, body control, movement, and how well the performance matches his/her understanding of the proper form. The better the practitioners body awareness and understanding of the desired ideal technique, the more he/she will get out of this process. The danger of doing this sort of practice based exclusively or primarily on video instruction is that without periodic correction, the movement being developed may deviate further and further from the desired end-goal. A secondary issue is that not everybody has the self-discipline to put in this kind of regular practice without the structure of a regular class and instructor to demand the work be put in.

*Learning through repetition with a partner:* This is the process of performing thousands of throws, locks, chokes, pins, blocks, parries, or other techniques or drills with a cooperative partner. This is another essential part of learning, whether from video or in-person. This can be hugely beneficial with the right training partners. A good partner - one who can feed realistic attacks, respond realistically to your technique, and give good verbal feedback ("it feels much tighter when you shift 2 inches this way") can be as helpful as many teachers are - more so sometimes. Not all training partners are this helpful, unfortunately. The best place to find this kind of quality training partner is in a good school with good in-person instruction. However it is sometimes possible to find a good training partner who is willing to work through video instruction with you outside an official dojo environment and make significant progress. In fact I would say that finding such partners is a necessary pre-requisite to getting any sort of real value out of exclusive video training.

*Learning via application experience:* This is the process of taking whatever you have learned from an instructor (in-person or video) and trying to apply it in sparring or real fighting or other real-world situations (such as a LEO or bouncer or corrections officer applying a restraint to a resisting subject), then learning from the experience. Having a coach who can offer you feedback during or after the event can be helpful, but is not by any means necessary. The most important feedback comes from the person who is opposing your technique.


*Conclusions from the above:* In person instruction has major advantages over video instruction - most importantly the potential for personal correction and feeling the technique of an experienced practitioner. However - a highly disciplined person with talent and good body awareness (and preferably prior training) who has consistent access to good training partners (who preferably have prior training) can use video instruction as a springboard, explore the material being shown through trial and error experimentation with training partners, then further test and refine what is learned through sparring, fighting, and/or other real world application experience, and eventually end up with usable skills. In essence, the practitioner is teaching himself through experience as much as he is learning from video. There are numerous martial arts which have been created or recreated this way - not so much via video (since that is a more recent invention), but by practitioners starting with a seed of information and doing the work to grow that seed into something more substantial. Consider most of HEMA - the modern pioneers didn't even have video to work from: they had to start with just _books!_ Have modern masters of long sword technique recreated the techniques of Liechtenauer with perfect accuracy? We'll never know. However I do know they can kick your *** with a sword.

*Caveats:* The kind of exploration described above can lead to usable skills, but those skills may not be exactly the same as what a teacher of the art in question might be teaching.  A particular art may utilize a certain set of body mechanics and an autodictat learning from video may develop a different set of body mechanics that (while effective) don't match the principles of that system. Also, most people who are considering learning primarily through video don't have the dedication, talent, or stable of quality training partners necessary to have much success with that approach. Another consideration is that the feedback mechanisms I've described for developing application of technique aren't so helpful for systems which are largely built around solo forms - especially if those forms have only an indirect relationship to actual application.


----------



## geezer

^^^^ That is an _excellent analysis_ of the methods of learning martial arts and what a videos can and cannot provide the student. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing more to say. What a great way to conclude this thread!


----------



## mograph

geezer said:


> What a great way to conclude this thread!


Hope springs eternal!


----------



## yak sao

geezer said:


> What a great way to conclude this thread!



And yet I'm sure we will continue to beat the dead horse and squeeze another three or four pages out of it.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> I have also made attempts to learn by reading books and thru video.  Both methods lead to nothing, although I did manage to learn to mimick a couple forms thru instructional video.  It was shallow mimicry, and nothing more.  It is not a good way to go about it.



For you perhaps.  Others with different aptitudes may very well be much more successful, as Tony points out in his great post above!


----------



## Hyoho

yak sao said:


> And yet I'm sure we will continue to beat the dead horse and squeeze another three or four pages out of it.


Well it all seems rather moot when the OP themselves is posting what could be construed as instructional videos on YouTube. The original question seems to based more on justification than a question. For sure dummies dont hit you back.


----------



## KPM

^^^ That comment makes no sense at all.


----------



## Tames D

Hyoho said:


> Well it all seems rather moot when the OP themselves is posting what could be construed as instructional videos on YouTube. The original question seems to based more on justification than a question. For sure dummies dont hit you back.


WTF?


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> For you perhaps.  Others with different aptitudes may very well be much more successful, as Tony points out in his great post above!


Hey, you do whatever you feel is appropriate for yourself.  I honestly don't care how you spend your time.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Hyoho said:


> Well it all seems rather moot when the OP themselves is posting what could be construed as instructional videos on YouTube.



Only if you really stretch the concept of "instructional videos." KPM has posted videos to share some of his thoughts and perspectives on Wing Chun, but there's certainly no implication that you can learn WC from his videos. It's more like the way we share ideas in our discussion on the forum, except that he's added some visuals to make his points clearer.


----------



## Kenposcholar

I wouldn't rely on video instruction for learning a physical activity that demands a partner. I do believe that you can use video instructions to help reinforce or to develop a physical activity that you practice physically with a partner later. Learning martial arts is like learning to be a good singer or become an athlete. 
       To become a good singer you need a second person to listen to you while you sing to provide a level of insight you would otherwise be incapable of knowing. Is it possible to sing without a second person or instructor there to give you tips? Absolutely. Can you compete or be proficient enough to be successful compared to others? Probably not. 
       The same rule applies to martial arts and/or self-defense that you want to use in real life. Is it possible to learn and do martial arts without a teacher? Sure. Can you become proficient enough to execute a self-defense technique in real life without a teacher to guide you? Possibly. It's all a matter of how much you care about being good at a martial art.


----------



## Blindside

How many people would not be able to understand or learn this technique?





(And I have had strongly kinesthetic learners for whom learning from video is absolutely useless, I naturally cannot recommend a video method for them.)


----------



## Flying Crane

Blindside said:


> How many people would not be able to understand or learn this technique?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (And I have had strongly kinesthetic learners for whom learning from video is absolutely useless, I naturally cannot recommend a video method for them.)


Ok, so sure, mimicry is not difficult.  Jabbing out with a stick is pretty intuitive, and it's pretty easy to be hazardous to another human being when you've got a stick in your hand (or not), whether you've had training or not.  Let us not forget that it really is not so difficult to hurt somebody.  You do not need a superior method, nor highly developed skills to do so, if injury to another is your goal.

However, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that, like the Chinese methods,  there are some very specific biomechanics that are supposed to be happening in the context of Filipino martial arts.  It is my observation that those kinds of details have a very high chance of failure to transmit thru a video medium.

Can I mimic what you are doing with that stick, well enough to be a danger to another person?  Of course.  Does that mean I am learning, or practicing Filipino martial arts?  No.  That is the shallow mimicry I referenced earlier.


----------



## Blindside

Flying Crane said:


> However, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that, like the Chinese methods,  there are some very specific biomechanics that are supposed to be happening in the context of Filipino martial arts.  It is my observation that those kinds of details have a very high chance of failure to transmit thru a video medium.
> 
> Can I mimic what you are doing with that stick, well enough to be a danger to another person?  Of course.  Does that mean I am learning, or practicing Filipino martial arts?  No.  That is the shallow mimicry I referenced earlier.



Why wouldn't you be doing "Filipino Martial Arts?"  You aren't a master, you are a bare bones beginner with a ludicrously small knowledge base, but sure you are practicing a "Filipino Martial Art."  I don't think that video is complete instruction on the topic, nor was it meant to be, but it was an introduction to a technique and some examples of how to use it.  The student needs to then go out and get some practical application using it through sparring.  Could I expand that into an hour long bit on all the different setups a jab uses?  What its different power generations methods can be?  Sure, but not the intention here.

I don't think you could learn a fairly esoteric art like aikido through video, but you could most striking arts, particularly ones that can be sparring against another person for some real time feedback and learning about distance control, power generation, and timing.


----------



## Flying Crane

Blindside said:


> Why wouldn't you be doing "Filipino Martial Arts?"  You aren't a master, you are a bare bones beginner with a ludicrously small knowledge base, but sure you are practicing a "Filipino Martial Art."  I don't think that video is complete instruction on the topic, nor was it meant to be, but it was an introduction to a technique and some examples of how to use it.  The student needs to then go out and get some practical application using it through sparring.  Could I expand that into an hour long bit on all the different setups a jab uses?  What its different power generations methods can be?  Sure, but not the intention here.
> 
> I don't think you could learn a fairly esoteric art like aikido through video, but you could most striking arts, particularly ones that can be sparring against another person for some real time feedback and learning about distance control, power generation, and timing.


Alright fair enough, I don't see it that way.  A technique picked up this way is just a guy swinging a stick.  

Maybe I see things differently, but it's not the techniques that make the method.  It's the principles that give those techniques a turbo boost and take them from "ouch" to "dead" that are what the method is really all about.  Maybe other methods don't have that, I dunno.  But without the deeper bits, it's just a collection of tricks. Meh.


----------



## Blindside

Flying Crane said:


> Alright fair enough, I don't see it that way.  A technique picked up this way is just a guy swinging a stick.
> 
> Maybe I see things differently, but it's not the techniques that make the method.  It's the principles that give those techniques a turbo boost and take them from "ouch" to "dead" that are what the method is really all about.  Maybe other methods don't have that, I dunno.  But without the deeper bits, it's just a collection of tricks. Meh.



If you have a whole collection of tricks that you can beat someone's *** with, wouldn't that make a martial art or at least a fighting art?


----------



## Xue Sheng




----------



## Flying Crane

Blindside said:


> If you have a whole collection of tricks that you can beat someone's *** with, wouldn't that make a martial art or at least a fighting art?


I guess I'm looking for more than that.


----------



## Pat M

JP3 said:


> .
> I use video reinforcement all the time, and we use video referencing quite a bit.
> 
> Reinforcement, as I've used it here, is literally picking up my smartphone, flipping on the video mode when Student A is working on something, usually with Student B. It's not working for them, and I can see why, but they can't "feel' the why I'm explaining because they don't even know what it is they are feeling for yet.
> 
> So... I play back the video and point it out to them. Then mimic their flaw, show the negative outcome, then show the correction and (hopefully) am then able to demonstrate the preferred outcome of whatever it is.  Sometimes to get people to feel what it is you very much have to use what my teacher called "Training Hands" and grasp the person and corral their movement into a certain path or position.
> 
> Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.
> 
> Next, working on - insert random kata technique name - we often will, since the instructor who originally taught me/them the kata is in another state, and sometimes memory fails everyone... we'll pull up the video of said kata technique and the discussion surrounding it, watch it together (obviously with different levels of understanding) and then go practice.
> 
> Video works, but it's an aid to teaching in this regard.
> 
> IMO... trying to learn a technique with which you've had absolutely no physical experience with first... is a very uphill task.  If all you have is a book, I wish you luck. If you've video of good quality, at least you get more of the data, though it's not live and interactive. Better, but not great.
> 
> Sometimes, I wish we could just download it, matrix-style... Ha!



You really sound to have a fantastic approach to how you run your classes.


----------



## Combat999

I believe it depends on what you are learning. Some arts are so detailed and needing of perfection that there is no way you can learn them through video alone. I tried learning WIng Chun through videos and books. Didn't work. I had to find a Sifu. Combatives on the other hand can be learned quite easily. Like the videos I just got WW3 Combatives. It is so easy and straight forward. I'm sure I could get better if the guy was teaching me but it's not as complicated as Wing Chun, Aikido or other arts.


----------



## themodernfighter

YES! You can absolutely learn stuff from videos and here is WHY!

Say you went to a Muay Thai lesson for the first time and you saw a technique being performed such as a horizontal elbow being thrown with the right hand while the left hand is covering the face. Now would this technique with the proper application come to mind a day prior to that lesson without ever having seen it? The answer is NO.

The same thing goes with videos. When it comes to videos you can see techniques that would never cross your mind, but once you see them for the first time you start learning new things. For example, we filmed a video showcasing various kenji siko applications. Now if you have never seen this technique, then you are definitely going to learn something new. Enjoy and tell me what you think !


----------



## Bill Mattocks

themodernfighter said:


> YES! You can absolutely learn stuff from videos and here is WHY!
> 
> Say you went to a Muay Thai lesson for the first time and you saw a technique being performed such as a horizontal elbow being thrown with the right hand while the left hand is covering the face. Now would this technique with the proper application come to mind a day prior to that lesson without ever having seen it? The answer is NO.
> 
> The same thing goes with videos. When it comes to videos you can see techniques that would never cross your mind, but once you see them for the first time you start learning new things. For example, we filmed a video showcasing various kenji siko applications. Now if you have never seen this technique, then you are definitely going to learn something new. Enjoy and tell me what you think !



First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.

Second, I disagree completely with your thesis.  But let me explain.

Can you 'learn' from videos?  Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly.  You can learn badly.  You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.

Seeing something is one thing.  Being able to apply it *correctly* is yet another.  One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all.  I do not fall into that school of thought.  I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply.  False confidence gets people hurt.

I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block.  I trust myself when I set that block.  And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion.  Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?

Well, no.  First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear).  I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again.  They do it WRONG.  Over and over.  Not because they are stupid.  Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block.  Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear.  There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person.  No video can teach that.

Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious.  When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive.  But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.

I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me.  If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block.  It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks.  The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.

Yes you can learn martial arts from video.  You can learn bad martial arts.  Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.


----------



## themodernfighter

Bill Mattocks said:


> First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.
> 
> Second, I disagree completely with your thesis.  But let me explain.
> 
> Can you 'learn' from videos?  Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly.  You can learn badly.  You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.
> 
> Seeing something is one thing.  Being able to apply it *correctly* is yet another.  One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all.  I do not fall into that school of thought.  I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply.  False confidence gets people hurt.
> 
> I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block.  I trust myself when I set that block.  And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion.  Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?
> 
> Well, no.  First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear).  I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again.  They do it WRONG.  Over and over.  Not because they are stupid.  Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block.  Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear.  There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person.  No video can teach that.
> 
> Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious.  When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive.  But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.
> 
> I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me.  If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block.  It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks.  The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.
> 
> Yes you can learn martial arts from video.  You can learn bad martial arts.  Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.





Bill Mattocks said:


> First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.
> 
> Second, I disagree completely with your thesis.  But let me explain.
> 
> Can you 'learn' from videos?  Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly.  You can learn badly.  You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.
> 
> Seeing something is one thing.  Being able to apply it *correctly* is yet another.  One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all.  I do not fall into that school of thought.  I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply.  False confidence gets people hurt.
> 
> I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block.  I trust myself when I set that block.  And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion.  Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?
> 
> Well, no.  First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear).  I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again.  They do it WRONG.  Over and over.  Not because they are stupid.  Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block.  Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear.  There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person.  No video can teach that.
> 
> Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious.  When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive.  But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.
> 
> I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me.  If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block.  It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks.  The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.
> 
> Yes you can learn martial arts from video.  You can learn bad martial arts.  Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.




Hi Bill,

First off thanks for the comment and nice to meet, I really appreciate your input here .
Please note that I am not an instructor and I do not teach anything, I am still learning and I also help other new adult students, what I am stating is simply my opinion .

Now that that is out of the way, I would like to say that I agree with you on a lot of things that you mentioned. Obviously, in order to learn a technique it is best done when an instructor is beside you and correcting you, unfortunately not everyone has that luxury and video is the best that they could hope for.

I understand what you mean when you say, new students get it wrong even if they do it over and over and over again, yet they still keep getting it wrong. But what do you expect? They are new students and their co-ordination is usually terrible. In order to get something right you need repetition.

So, in my opinion, if you see a video with a technique, analyze the movements and film yourself doing it, and do it over and over again, the only thing you can do is improve.

Anyway, I was just stating my opinion, personally, I have learned a lot from videos, I was exposed to new stuff and training methods that I have never seen before and it worked well for me, that is why I have this kind of mindset.


----------



## KPM

^^^^  Agree with above.  And these things have already been pointed to Bill multiple times in this thread already.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

themodernfighter said:


> ...
> I understand what you mean when you say, new students get it wrong even if they do it over and over and over again, yet they still keep getting it wrong. But what do you expect? They are new students and their co-ordination is usually terrible. In order to get something right you need repetition.



To be more precise, you need *correct* repetition.  

I see them apply the block and I say "Not like that, like this!"  And they reply "I am doing it like you said!"  But they are not.  They don't know that, it's not their fault.  I need to move their elbow or adjust their stance or whatever.  And I have to do it again and again and again.  Only when they get it pretty well locked in can they practice over and over and over until they get it 'right'.



> So, in my opinion, if you see a video with a technique, analyze the movements and film yourself doing it, and do it over and over again, the only thing you can do is improve.



They can *think* they are improving.  I doubt that they actually are improving.

I have stated this before, but to repeat:

1) They don't do it over and over when they 'home train' anyway.  They do it a couple times and call it good.
2) They believe they are doing what they see, but they're not.
3) What they see is maybe 10% of the actual application anyway.  So much is tiny little details that only in-person instruction can teach - no camera can catch it.



> Anyway, I was just stating my opinion, personally, I have learned a lot from videos, I was exposed to new stuff and training methods that I have never seen before and it worked well for me, that is why I have this kind of mindset.



Some have said that learning from videos is better than nothing.  I think it's worse than nothing if one depends on it in a real self-defense application.  

Some have said that they can't find a way to get to training or to pay for it.  I'm sorry that's the case.  Work towards a solution, is my only advice here.  This is the whole 'chop wood, carry water' mentality.  Part of the learning process is being determined enough to do something about it.

Some have said that videos can be a good learning tool for those who have already reached a certain level of mastery and who can therefore absorb more from the video training...mmmm maybe.  In a way.  Personally, I have been to seminars where there was a limited amount of hands-on training that I would have thought I could master, given the fact that I have been training for some time now.  It hasn't been the case for the most part, and that was in-person.  I doubt video is going to be my new sensei anytime soon.

I know people are just looking for options.  I don't like being such a downer, but I don't think video is a legitimate option for good training.  Bad training, sure, but don't we have enough of that already?


----------



## themodernfighter

You make some very good points, and I agree with you, however I still stand by my opinion because I personally learned from video. At the end of the day I believe it ALL comes down to the practitioner if they can learn from video or not.


----------



## Juany118

I think people miss something.  You will do things incorrectly and not even know.  Example a "simple" Arm Bar.  If you look at 99% of videos you see the person apply a wrist lock and place the forearm on the elbow and lower their body weight.

How many people notice that the practitioner is also rotating the wrist they have locked?  That you aren't actually going straight down on the arm but rotating the arm.  If you just go straight down it is actually not difficult to resist, however if you use circles, the brain is constantly adjusting and so resistance is compromised because the direction to resist in is constantly changing.

With WC, does a video tell you the importance of the angle at you elbow in a fighting stance or a tan sau?  Can you yourself see that you are tense in neck and shoulders when executing techniques?

In general when practicing a technique do you notice your form is compromised leaning forward, bending down at the waist when you should be bending at the knees?  Do you notice your stance is over extended or that you did not zone enough so you have now said "yes please, kick me in the Jimmy" to an opponent?

All of these little things, with repetition, create bad muscle memory.  Some of these bad habits make certain techniques far less effective (the arm bar and tan sau examples) others make you vulnerable (the ones directly above.)

Now I know a lot of people look at videos because they can be free but here is a question.  If you are learning martial arts to defend yourself you clearly want it to be correct, to work, just like any other skill set.  Would you want your kid to learn History, Math or Science from YouTube videos or from a certified teacher?  Would you want our Soldiers learning from videos of Drill Sgts and professional instructors?  I suspect you would say the later both cases.  A skill set is a skill set.

I get increasingly in the internet age we increasingly see data is free.  Skills are built upon data so we may wish to learn skills for free.  However in something like Martial Arts, something that is about learning something until it becomes automatic through muscle memory, without someone to correct mistakes, you get bad memory than can actually get you hurt.


----------



## Vajramusti

Bill Mattocks said:


> First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.
> 
> Second, I disagree completely with your thesis.  But let me explain.
> 
> Can you 'learn' from videos?  Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly.  You can learn badly.  You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.
> 
> Seeing something is one thing.  Being able to apply it *correctly* is yet another.  One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all.  I do not fall into that school of thought.  I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply.  False confidence gets people hurt.
> 
> I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block.  I trust myself when I set that block.  And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion.  Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?
> 
> Well, no.  First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear).  I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again.  They do it WRONG.  Over and over.  Not because they are stupid.  Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block.  Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear.  There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person.  No video can teach that.
> 
> Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious.  When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive.  But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.
> 
> I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me.  If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block.  It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks.  The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.
> 
> Yes you can learn martial arts from video.  You can learn bad martial arts.  Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.[/Q
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Agree with the thrust of your position.


----------



## Vajramusti

Agree with the thrust of your position.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bill Mattocks said:


> To be more precise, you need *correct* repetition.
> 
> I see them apply the block and I say "Not like that, like this!"  And they reply "I am doing it like you said!"  But they are not.  They don't know that, it's not their fault.  I need to move their elbow or adjust their stance or whatever.  And I have to do it again and again and again.  Only when they get it pretty well locked in can they practice over and over and over until they get it 'right'.
> 
> 
> 
> They can *think* they are improving.  I doubt that they actually are improving.
> 
> I have stated this before, but to repeat:
> 
> 1) They don't do it over and over when they 'home train' anyway.  They do it a couple times and call it good.
> 2) They believe they are doing what they see, but they're not.
> 3) What they see is maybe 10% of the actual application anyway.  So much is tiny little details that only in-person instruction can teach - no camera can catch it.
> 
> 
> 
> Some have said that learning from videos is better than nothing.  I think it's worse than nothing if one depends on it in a real self-defense application.
> 
> Some have said that they can't find a way to get to training or to pay for it.  I'm sorry that's the case.  Work towards a solution, is my only advice here.  This is the whole 'chop wood, carry water' mentality.  Part of the learning process is being determined enough to do something about it.
> 
> Some have said that videos can be a good learning tool for those who have already reached a certain level of mastery and who can therefore absorb more from the video training...mmmm maybe.  In a way.  Personally, I have been to seminars where there was a limited amount of hands-on training that I would have thought I could master, given the fact that I have been training for some time now.  It hasn't been the case for the most part, and that was in-person.  I doubt video is going to be my new sensei anytime soon.
> 
> I know people are just looking for options.  I don't like being such a downer, but I don't think video is a legitimate option for good training.  Bad training, sure, but don't we have enough of that already?


Agreed, and these things have been pointed out to kpm many times.


----------



## KPM

^^^^And I have said....may be true from some, but not for everyone.  You cannot generalize your opinion and experience to everyone.  I have pointed out that I have learned well from video in several different ways.  "themodernfighter" has said the same just today.  Others have said the same on this thread.  So we can say with good confidence that it IS possible.  You cannot say that it is impossible.  We only have to show that it has worked for some people.  You would have to show that it has NEVER worked for anyone.  So get off your high horses and use a little common sense here.


----------



## Vajramusti

Bill Mattocks said:


> First, welcome to MT, as I see this is your first post.
> 
> Second, I disagree completely with your thesis.  But let me explain.
> 
> Can you 'learn' from videos?  Yes, in the sense you state - but to be more precise, what you can do is learn incorrectly.  You can learn badly.  You can learn, if you will pardon the expression, wrong.
> 
> Seeing something is one thing.  Being able to apply it *correctly* is yet another.  One might argue, as you appear to be doing, that it is better to learn the motion from seeing it, no matter how badly a person then applies it, than to have never learned it at all.  I do not fall into that school of thought.  I would not want to depend upon a technique that I actually could not apply.  False confidence gets people hurt.
> 
> I can make a video of myself doing an upper body block. I'm pretty confident in my upper body block.  I trust myself when I set that block.  And many might agree, it's a pretty simple motion.  Fist comes in, arm goes up, the fist is blocked, hooray for Hollywood, right?
> 
> Well, no.  First of all, I spend hours assisting with teaching young kids and new adult students (I am an adult student, not a full-time instructor, just to be clear).  I demonstrate a proper upper body block over and over again.  They do it WRONG.  Over and over.  Not because they are stupid.  Not because I am bad at demonstrating the block.  Because it is a far more subtle move than it would appear.  There are lots of minute details that have to be right for the block to be effective, and not only does it take time and good instruction to find them, they are different for each person.  No video can teach that.
> 
> Second, the upper body block has a myriad of applications, beyond just the obvious.  When one has practiced diligently, and with hands-on instruction, how to do the upper body block correctly, one can be shown how else the basic movement can be used, some of which are intuitive and some of which are far from intuitive.  But only when the basics have been mastered can one move on; and to the outside observer, it's all the same movement.
> 
> I can test any upper body block that a student wishes to demonstrate for me.  If they learned it off Youtube, I can pretty much guarantee that they are going to have a headache very quickly as I crash their their crap block.  It doesn't matter if the person they saw doing it was good or terrible at upper body blocks.  The video instructor might have been great; but the results are not.
> 
> Yes you can learn martial arts from video.  You can learn bad martial arts.  Personally, I don't think that's a great way to go.


-----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With sufficient knowledge of good wing chun, videos can give some insights to a kung fu person.
The problem with video based learning is that one becomes one's own teacher and may have a fool for a student.


----------



## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> I think people miss something.  You will do things incorrectly and not even know.  Example a "simple" Arm Bar.  If you look at 99% of videos you see the person apply a wrist lock and place the forearm on the elbow and lower their body weight.
> 
> How many people notice that the practitioner is also rotating the wrist they have locked?  That you aren't actually going straight down on the arm but rotating the arm.  If you just go straight down it is actually not difficult to resist, however if you use circles, the brain is constantly adjusting and so resistance is compromised because the direction to resist in is constantly changing.



Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.

Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of  opinion about how to apply them, like most things.

Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.

Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.

It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.


----------



## Buka

Some people can learn, others can't. Depends on experience and subject matter. Also depends on how the video is presented.

For instance, if the video is accompanied with charts, like a black board session.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Vajramusti said:


> -----
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> With sufficient knowledge of good wing chun, videos can give some insights to a kung fu person.
> The problem with video based learning is that one becomes one's own teacher and may have a fool for a student.



I would go along with 'insights'.  I think we are both saying the same thing - an insight is a far cry from learning.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

KPM said:


> ^^^^And I have said....may be true from some, but not for everyone.  You cannot generalize your opinion and experience to everyone.  I have pointed out that I have learned well from video in several different ways.  "themodernfighter" has said the same just today.  Others have said the same on this thread.  So we can say with good confidence that it IS possible.  You cannot say that it is impossible.  We only have to show that it has worked for some people.  You would have to show that it has NEVER worked for anyone.  So get off your high horses and use a little common sense here.



I do not have to show a thing.  I have stated my opinion, I do not attempt to prove anything.  However, anyone who has trained themselves via video is more than welcome to visit me for a friendly demonstration.  And I do mean friendly, I am not angry or seeking to hurt or embarrass anyone.  Bring what you have and we'll give it a try.


----------



## Vajramusti

anerlich said:


> Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.
> 
> Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of  opinion about how to apply them, like most things.
> 
> Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.
> 
> Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.
> 
> It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The last sentence  is appropriate- good tacit knowlege of a subject can help with videos.


----------



## Buka

And then there are the rare exceptions to the rule. Louis Delgado, a competitor from the 60's, was self taught. And there wasn't any video back then. He learned from books.

Strange, yes, but the man could fight.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ^^^^And I have said....may be true from some, but not for everyone.  You cannot generalize your opinion and experience to everyone.  I have pointed out that I have learned well from video in several different ways.  "themodernfighter" has said the same just today.  Others have said the same on this thread.  So we can say with good confidence that it IS possible.  You cannot say that it is impossible.  We only have to show that it has worked for some people.  You would have to show that it has NEVER worked for anyone.  So get off your high horses and use a little common sense here.


Yeah I know, everyone wants to believe that they are that rare exception who could really do it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> And then there are the rare exceptions to the rule. Louis Delgado, a competitor from the 60's, was self taught. And there wasn't any video back then. He learned from books.
> 
> Strange, yes, but the man could fight.


I don't know anything about Louis Delgado, never even heard the name before. 

However, lots of people are really good fighters, without any kind of instruction or formal training.  Just because they looked at a book or a video, doesn't mean they are learning or training martial arts.  Some people are just fighting, and they are naturally athletic enough to do it.  If that is all they want, well fine.  But they have no claim to training X, Y, or Z martial art, they haven't learned it with any real understanding.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah I know, everyone wants to believe that they are that rare exception who could really do it.



So you think everyone on this thread that has said they have benefited from learning from videos is either deluded or lying?


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> So you think everyone on this thread that has said they have benefited from learning from videos is either deluded or lying?


If video was used as a supplement to legitimate instruction, then no.  I've said many times that there is no problem with that, if gone about in the proper way.  Yes, one can "learn things from video."

If video was the primary or only source, or the bulk of the instruction, then I honestly suspect people are not nearly so skilled or knowledgeable as they may think they are.  That's the thing with self-instruction: you really have no idea how good you are or are not.  It's very easy to be lost in the fog and not even know it.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> If video was the primary or only source, or the bulk of the instruction, then I honestly suspect people are not nearly so skilled or knowledgeable as they may think they are.  That's the thing with self-instruction: you really have no idea how good you are or are not.  It's very easy to be lost in the fog and not even know it.



And, once again, I will point out that no one on this thread has proposed video instruction as the SOLE way of learning.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Question: has anyone in this thread proposed using video instruction as the "Primary" way of learning?

Because I have been following this thread and it seems every time someone say 'sole source' or 'primary source', as Flying Crane just did, 'sole source' is addressed, but 'primary source' seems to be completely ignored.


----------



## Tames D

I would never suggest to anyone that they can't accomplish something just because I am unable to.


----------



## Tames D

*“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”*

― Henry Ford


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tames D said:


> *“Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”*
> 
> ― Henry Ford



It's a great philosophy, but the first half, at least, isn't really true.
I mean, if you think you can ski through a revolving door while dribbling a football, I'd like to watch. It would be entertaining.
I agree, though, that as soon as you say "I can't", you're right. In part because you've just given yourself an excuse not to even try.


----------



## Tames D

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a great philosophy, but the first half, at least, isn't really true.
> I mean, if you think you can ski through a revolving door while dribbling a football, I'd like to watch. It would be entertaining.
> I agree, though, that as soon as you say "I can't", you're right. In part because you've just given yourself an excuse not to even try.


Oh ye of little faith.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Tames D said:


> Oh ye of little faith.



Just remember... I want to watch. The attempt would be quite YouTube worthy...

And just to clarify, I'm talking about a regular, normal, revolving door, and an American football.


----------



## anerlich

Xue Sheng said:


> Question: has anyone in this thread proposed using video instruction as the "Primary" way of learning?
> 
> Because I have been following this thread and it seems every time someone say 'sole source' or 'primary source', as Flying Crane just did, 'sole source' is addressed, but 'primary source' seems to be completely ignored.



I don't think so. Most people advocating video learning would view it as supplementary. I did.

Is there anyone following this discussion who has used video as their Primary way of learning?


----------



## anerlich

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah I know, everyone wants to believe that they are that rare exception who could really do it.



Who is "everyone"? Just about everyone responding learned face to face from teachers. Some supplemented that with video. 

There is no definitive answer to this, it is a matter of opinion. No one is going to change their opinion so IMO continuing the sniping is pointless. But don't let my opinion on that stop anyone carping on if you have nothing more important to be going on with.


----------



## anerlich

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a great philosophy, but the first half, at least, isn't really true.
> I mean, if you think you can ski through a revolving door while dribbling a football, I'd like to watch. It would be entertaining.
> I agree, though, that as soon as you say "I can't", you're right. In part because you've just given yourself an excuse not to even try.



Is there a Youtube instructional I can watch?


----------



## Hyoho

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know anything about Louis Delgado, never even heard the name before.
> 
> However, lots of people are really good fighters, without any kind of instruction or formal training.  Just because they looked at a book or a video, doesn't mean they are learning or training martial arts.  Some people are just fighting, and they are naturally athletic enough to do it.  If that is all they want, well fine.  But they have no claim to training X, Y, or Z martial art, they haven't learned it with any real understanding.



More to the point some people are just born fighters. From a professional point of view they are the kind you pick to join your school/dojo and win championships. Some people can spend their life doing MA and only a little rubs off. Either way it needs to be done face to face with maybe looking at a 'professional' video for pointers in between practice.


----------



## Buka

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know anything about Louis Delgado, never even heard the name before.
> 
> However, lots of people are really good fighters, without any kind of instruction or formal training.  Just because they looked at a book or a video, doesn't mean they are learning or training martial arts.  Some people are just fighting, and they are naturally athletic enough to do it.  If that is all they want, well fine.  But they have no claim to training X, Y, or Z martial art, they haven't learned it with any real understanding.



Delgado was of that tournament group of Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Joe Hayes, Skipper Mullins, Fred Hamilton, Benny the Jet, Thomas LaPuppet etc. They all used to hook up in New York City. Hard core guys who fought a lot and trained together on occasion. Most of them weren't consider politically correct to the established Karate world. (or maybe more accurately, the "establishing" Karate world.)

I didn't meet Delgado until the early eighties, trained with him while with one of my instructors. Can't remember a Karate man I liked less. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to remember anyone from any walk of life I liked less. Just a mean spirited A-H. But he was one hell of a Martial Artist and knew as much about Martial Arts as anyone I had been exposed to t that time. I've spoken about him to some of the people I've trained under, people who fought and trained with him. They agree, he was different, and learned differently than the rest of us.

I know that doesn't make much sense, doesn't make much sense to me, either, but it's the way it was. To tell the truth, I don't miss the prick one bit.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> And, once again, I will point out that no one on this thread has proposed video instruction as the SOLE way of learning.


I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion.  To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction.  But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going before finding an instructor. 

Be honest.

My post, number 93 in this thread is where I pointed out your relevant comments.  I suggest you review that one.


----------



## Flying Crane

Flying Crane said:


> I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion.  To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction.  But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going before finding an instructor.
> 
> Be honest.


erased


----------



## Tez3

if the 'you' in can you learn from videos is personal the answer is no, I can't. I don't have that sort of brain, I have trouble watching an instructor, I need to actually do the technique/move/whatever to learn it. I also need a few goes at doing it to get it into my head.  I can't explain moves on here either, I need to show you, preferably using the move on you.


----------



## Dylan9d

Flying Crane said:


> I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion.  To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction.  But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going before finding an instructor.
> 
> Be honest.
> 
> My post, number 93 in this thread is where I pointed out your relevant comments.  I suggest you review that one.



Sorry Flying Crane but I think that You need to read the opening post again


----------



## Juany118

anerlich said:


> Hmmm ... I've straight armbarred a ****load of guys without "rotating" the arm. You need to control the wrist, usually via the thumb, so they cannot spin out, and there are different philosophies about the final position of the wrist, but I've never had major problems just isolating the end of the lever (wrist), pinning it to my chest and extending the arm using my posterior chain. I've yet to meet someone who could come close to resisting this using arm strength once you control both ends of the lever. His bicep vs your posterior chain. No contest.
> 
> Armbars do have a fair number of details and a few differences of  opinion about how to apply them, like most things.
> 
> Rotation can be useful in setting up the armlock, per Rhonda Rousey, but I've never been taught this rotation thing. I've been taught armbars by three of the Machado brothers, John Will, Richard Norton, Anthony Perosh and Gui Mendes.
> 
> Perhaps you are talking about a cutting armbar? For those I would agree the position of the elbow per rotation is very important.
> 
> It would be difficult to learn either of these via video alone. But once you understand the basic technical idea and principles behind it, I think the tweaks can be communicated on video and fine tuned by feel without difficulty.




Sorry I was referring to an armbar takedown from a standing position, not an armbar in terms of getting a submission or on the ground etc.  If that helps to clarify things.  Now some as I understand it may refer to this more as an "armlock" vs "armbar".  I was always taught to call it an armbar.  /shrug.

This is not a bad video, but not great either.  I would place it in the "meh" category...  



  If they  are strong/drunk/high enough it is possible for them to muscle out of such if you are just dropping your body weight down.  However, if you start more with your wrist in the area of the tricep as the video says, rolling or driving your arm into/across, rotating his arm under yours as you drop, it messes with his shoulder in multiple directions.  As my Guro says "the human brain likes linerar and hates circles" and adding this dynamic makes it much easier to take down.

The problem is, without an instructor, and a willing partner, it is dang hard to learn.   First  you have to look really close in the video though to see how the white t-shirt guy's arm is rotating at the shoulder to start with.  Second, being sure that is happening in training can be difficult, because obviously you don't want to go so hard as to cause injury. Also this video in particular is speaking purely from a LEO/security perspective starting with the escort position and isn't showing how to properly transition during an on going "striking" fight.

In comparison we have this video 



 which is relying almost entirely on your body weight.  It is an easy to learn technique but more than once, in reality, I have seen this fail due to size difference/intoxication.

Now do grappling specific arts have different techniques?  Yes, I was thinking through my Kali lens as it applies to street encounters however and this is where I see an issue.  

If you want to learn a particular art I wouldn't suggest any "free" videos on YouTube.  There are some that I think are good for the following purpose I think they can be good.  Once you have a solid base videos can help show you what does and what doesn't work outside the school and on the street, as an example.  What I have a problem with videos, especially the "free ones" you find is the following.

1. There is really no vetting beyond "likes" and that to me is unreliable.
2. The ones from quality instructors are usually purposefully limited as they are really there as advertisement not bonafide instruction.
3. The most important one.  On our best day, as humans, we can often find it difficult acknowledging mistakes when we are in a position to clearly see and thus critique our own actions.  Now magnify that dynamic due to the fact that we can not see ourselves in the third person.  Magnify it further because we may be trying to assimilate something that really requires a partner who is not there.  Magnify it still further because, as a student, we don't even really know what to look for in terms of errors.


----------



## Flying Crane

Dylan9d said:


> Sorry Flying Crane but I think that You need to read the opening post again


I have. I stand by my assessment.


----------



## Vajramusti

The original proposition was imprecise and spurious. It allowed for some "learning".


----------



## anerlich

Juany118 said:


> Sorry I was referring to an armbar takedown from a standing position, not an armbar in terms of getting a submission or on the ground etc.  If that helps to clarify things.  Now some as I understand it may refer to this more as an "armlock" vs "armbar".  I was always taught to call it an armbar.  /shrug.



From a Jiu Jitsu perspective, I would call that a variation of the cutting armbar. The same elbow lock can be applied from a variety of positions.

I agree there are some subtleties that are not easily seen on video. Also, even if demonstrated and well described by a teacher, I would venture it takes most students considerably longer to learn to apply than many other techniques, as the vagaries of the elbow position are subtle and the only decent feedback in some positions is whether the guy taps to it or not. In the example given, the guy goes down if you do it properly, but if you do it from the guard or from knee on stomach, etc. The guy hardly moves at all. If you apply it right, you can break his arm but if you don't, nothing happens. Only he can really tell you if you've got it right or not - unless you hear the snap. After enough practice you learn to feel the right positions and how to adjust if it doesn't seem to be happening.



Juany118 said:


> Now do grappling specific arts have different techniques?  Yes, I was thinking through my Kali lens as it applies to street encounters however and this is where I see an issue.



Only up to a point, There are only so many ways conceptually to attack each specific joint.  That may lead to a multiplicity of different body positions to apply the leverage for attack, but essentially the underlying concept is the same. There are many ways to apply a straight armbar on the ground, most of which are back to front upside down or inside out versions of each other, but the underlying principle is controlling the hand and shoulder and applying hyperextending force to the back of the elbow.

Jiu Jitsu, like other arts, is evolving and open ended, which means that if you saw a new way to apply a lock that fitted in with the rest of your game you'd just absorb it.


----------



## Juany118

anerlich said:


> From a Jiu Jitsu perspective, I would call that a variation of the cutting armbar. The same elbow lock can be applied from a variety of positions.
> 
> I agree there are some subtleties that are not easily seen on video. Also, even if demonstrated and well described by a teacher, I would venture it takes most students considerably longer to learn to apply than many other techniques, as the vagaries of the elbow position are subtle and the only decent feedback in some positions is whether the guy taps to it or not. In the example given, the guy goes down if you do it properly, but if you do it from the guard or from knee on stomach, etc. The guy hardly moves at all. If you apply it right, you can break his arm but if you don't, nothing happens. Only he can really tell you if you've got it right or not - unless you hear the snap. After enough practice you learn to feel the right positions and how to adjust if it doesn't seem to be happening..



So really I think we are on the same page TBH, in terms of a pure video perspective.  I just did not wish to make assumptions regarding grappling arts.  I did study Aikido many moons ago but my most recent experience, and passion revolve around Lacoste/Inosanto Kali and Wing Chin (what I currently study now).  While Kali does have grappling I know it is limited as compared to other arts.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> I have. I stand by my assessment.


 
And I stand by my assessment that you are a bit, shall we say, "logic challenged."


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> I believe I've already pointed out to you where you, in the opening post, make the suggestion.  To be fair, you suggest many things there, including video as supplemental instruction.  But also to be fair, you suggest video as the source, and you suggest video as a way to get going *before finding an instructor.*
> 
> Be honest.
> 
> My post, number 93 in this thread is where I pointed out your relevant comments.  I suggest you review that one.


 
And I will state again, as you have so kindly pointed out.....I never suggested video as the SOLE way of learning.  Please check your logic module.  I think it is malfunctioning.


----------



## Hyoho

Do we really need to take this thread any further? The OP actually makes what he considers to be his own instructional videos. Didn't anyone notice that before they responded. It's just an inadvertent commercial to say YouTubes are OK.


----------



## KPM

Hyoho said:


> Do we really need to take this thread any further? The OP actually makes what he considers to be his own instructional videos. Didn't anyone notice that before they responded. It's just an inadvertent commercial to say YouTubes are OK.


 
What you are talking about?  I have put up a few youtube videos for friends and students.  Most of them were in response to discussions on this forum or the FB Wing Chun forum where I was trying to show on video what I was talking about in writing to try and make my explanation a bit clearer.  If more people had the balls to do that, then many discussions would be much more fruitful.   Instead, guys like you try to denigrate people that put up video and end up discouraging people from doing it.  NONE of the videos I have put up were meant at any kind of "on-line" teaching program or intended to be the SOLE source of anyone's instruction. 

You ask "do we need to take this thread any further" and then take a swipe at me again.   Why can't you and the crane simply let it go? 

Let me state one more time and then let's drop it..........I never proposed in my OP that video be the ONLY source of someone's instruction.  If you think so, then you are reading something into it that isn't there.  I have repeated and reinforced multiple times on this thread now that I do not believe that someone can learn effectively ONLY from video.  For someone to continue to try and say that I said the opposite, is just plain stupid, because I am here, and I should know what my intent was and what I believe!


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> And I will state again, as you have so kindly pointed out.....I never suggested video as the SOLE way of learning.  Please check your logic module.  I think it is malfunctioning.


You did, and I pointed it out to you. 

Hey, you tell yourself whatever lie makes you comfortable.

But if you are taking that part back, well ok then


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.



There is this bit, in case you have forgotten.  And as I have already pointed out to you...


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in. _But you have to have a partner. Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo! So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a_ _little at a time. And have fun! That's the important part![/_QUOTE






Whether you mean to or not this more than implies you can learn just with the video. the only mention of an instructor is the bit about looking to see if you like the style before travelling a long way but it does go on to say you and a friend can learn from the video, you even recommend working through it slowly so yes I'm afraid you have said you can learn as a beginner. Granted, you may not have meant it but that's what this says


----------



## Hyoho

KPM said:


> What you are talking about?  I have put up a few youtube videos for friends and students.  Most of them were in response to discussions on this forum or the FB Wing Chun forum where I was trying to show on video what I was talking about in writing to try and make my explanation a bit clearer.  If more people had the balls to do that, then many discussions would be much more fruitful.   Instead, guys like you try to denigrate people that put up video and end up discouraging people from doing it.  NONE of the videos I have put up were meant at any kind of "on-line" teaching program or intended to be the SOLE source of anyone's instruction.
> 
> You ask "do we need to take this thread any further" and then take a swipe at me again.   Why can't you and the crane simply let it go?
> 
> Let me state one more time and then let's drop it..........I never proposed in my OP that video be the ONLY source of someone's instruction.  If you think so, then you are reading something into it that isn't there.  I have repeated and reinforced multiple times on this thread now that I do not believe that someone can learn effectively ONLY from video.  For someone to continue to try and say that I said the opposite, is just plain stupid, because I am here, and I should know what my intent was and what I believe!



I am looking at a video now. As I said before useful to check out students that are in another country running my school there and give them a few pointers to work on. You might not have noticed but there is a private function on YouTube .


----------



## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> There is this bit, in case you have forgotten.  And as I have already pointed out to you...


I haven't been involved in this conversation, but as a black belt in one kenpo, I can see myself very easily picking up tech ideas from some other kenpo vid. It really is just a new name and signature, of stuff I already know.


----------



## KPM

Tez3 said:


> Whether you mean to or not this more than implies you can learn just with the video. the only mention of an instructor is the bit about looking to see if you like the style before travelling a long way but it does go on to say you and a friend can learn from the video, you even recommend working through it slowly so yes I'm afraid you have said you can learn as a beginner. Granted, you may not have meant it but that's what this says


 
Geez!  How is it that so many people can have such reading comprehension problems!  Why do you 3 choose to continue to ignore this part, which was plainly stated:

*Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*

Now just drop it.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> Geez!  How is it that so many people can have such reading comprehension problems!  Why do you 3 choose to continue to ignore this part, which was plainly stated:
> 
> *Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*
> 
> Now just drop it.



Not a chance of dropping it when you command, I'm not yours to command......

Look I said you probably didn't mean it that way, it probably didn't sound that way in your head when you wrote it, but wrote it you did and no amount of back peddling on later posts will change what you wrote. Just accept you wrote something you later thought 'oh o' that didn't come across right, stop blaming other people, stop insulting them and just admit what you wrote was ambiguous at best, what we said it was at worst.


----------



## Red Sun

^ Proper Training





^ Can't throw a 1-2





^ No power, no technique





^ Can't land a body shot on a heavy bag





^ Proper Training

I don't think this is a debatable subject :/


----------



## Deleted member 34973

I would think, like everything, a majority of it depends on the person. Training with a live instructor, doesnt always produce stellar results either.

But, a good instructor would be more beneficial.

Video does allow for that which can be missed in a large group setting. If its a quality video. But, I dont think it should replace an actual instructor.


----------



## Tez3

There is a trend for young girls to learn ballet by watching videos, which means they learn to go en pointe by watching the videos, this is dangerous, damaging and potentially crippling especially at too young an age and without conditioning. You cannot learn ballet by watching videos, you cannot learn martial arts by watching videos. You can pick up tips, hints and ideas but you cannot learn a martial art without an instructor for all the same reasons you can't learn ballet.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Geez!  How is it that so many people can have such reading comprehension problems!  Why do you 3 choose to continue to ignore this part, which was plainly stated:
> 
> *Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*
> 
> Now just drop it.


Regardless of what you meant, reality is how the message was received.  Several of us received a message that you claim you never sent.  Well, we did receive it, like it or not.

So ok, you are saying you agree that video as the only instruction is not good.  So great, we've found a point of agreement.

However, in your example here, you still have got it backwards.  You claim that instruction FOLLOWING video instruction is a good way to go about it.  I completely disagree; you've got the horse before the cart here.  That initial video instruction has already got the student working on bad habits and poor comprehension, and now a good teacher has to undo that damage.

Video as supplement AFTER receiving proper instruction can be useful, but as I've stated already, it depends on WHAT video, and in what manner one goes about it.  I would strongly advise against using some video from YouTube, from some random instructor who is not your instructor, or who is not at least in some way affiliated, even if he is from the same system.

Being very selective about what resources one uses is very very important.


----------



## mograph

Yeah. If I used video, I'd use it to reinforce in-person instruction from the same instructor.

To put it psychologically, the video would be used for the _recall_ of existing information _from_ memory, not the _encoding_ of new information _into_ memory.


----------



## mograph

Red Sun said:


> ^ Proper Training


Amazing. She's so ... _alive_.
Just asking, because I don't know boxing: what would be the benefit of her hitting the leaves?



Red Sun said:


> ^ No power, no technique


If he _had_ power, how would it look when he hit the bag? How would the bag move?

Thanks for the clips -- I'm just asking to fill some gaps in my knowledge.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

To add on to this question of "video instruction"
If a student moved away from a former dojo and wished to continue training with the instructor through video, would that be acceptable?


----------



## Tames D

Guthrie said:


> To add on to this question of "video instruction"
> If a student moved away from a former dojo and wished to continue training with the instructor through video, would that be acceptable?


Not to this crowd...


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> To add on to this question of "video instruction"
> If a student moved away from a former dojo and wished to continue training with the instructor through video, would that be acceptable?


What's wrong with just practicing what you've already learned, with the possibility of future visits back to the dojo?


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Flying Crane said:


> What's wrong with just practicing what you've already learned, with the possibility of future visits back to the dojo?


I would imagine nothing, if the individual wanted to and I would imagine that nothing would be wrong with the video instruction, if both parties agreed and if the training was watched closely.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> I would imagine nothing, if the individual wanted to and I would imagine that nothing would be wrong with the video instruction, if both parties agreed and if the training was watched closely.


Well, the potential for success at that point would depend a lot on the skill and understanding that the student has already built.  I would say those who would have the greatest chance of success in this way are also those who are least in need of it.  Meaning: if they are good enough to learn more of the system in this way, then they have already reached a level where they don't need more, and have probably learned most of it anyway.

Those who want to learn a system in this way, who are in need of skill development, are least likely to succeed in this way, because they don't have the necessary background and skills to be successful in this way.

But I digress.  Learning a system, learning new material in this way, is simply a bad idea.  Meh.


----------



## Flying Crane

So hey, if you want to throw around hypotheticals, if a third or fourth or fifth Dan continued making periodic videos for his eighth -Dan sensei to review and critique, sure that could be fruitful.  And the sensei could include video in response, to help get his points across.

The lower the student is, however, the less and less likely it will be successful.

But this is a vastly different situation from the beginner-level video instruction that made up at least part of the OP claims.


----------



## Hyoho

Flying Crane said:


> What's wrong with just practicing what you've already learned, with the possibility of future visits back to the dojo?



Yes I was wondering that to. How on earth did people manage before YouTube?. Most I ever saw as a kid was one book in the library. Then the Japanese started working in Europe and it was possible to get real instruction. Sounds like a hard alternative but "travel" is the only way. Those that wont practice because there is no training in their town are really not MA material and sitting on their butt watching videos has to come a close second.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Youtube warrriors...yeah I agree with it myself. But, would it be better to travel to a crappy school(which there are tons) and train, or good quality video, say like the Gracies online school or Jerry Poteet or Joe Lewis or any other well known instructors, who have online courses?

Also, what about people such as Bruce, who had an extensive library of books that he was known to derive techniques from.

Now, dont get me wrong. I dont believe anything compares to training, in person, with a good quality instructor.

But, one must consider the variables.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> Youtube warrriors...yeah I agree with it myself. But, would it be better to travel to a crappy school(which there are tons) and train, or good quality video, say like the Gracies online school or Jerry Poteet or Joe Lewis or any other well known instructors, who have online courses?
> 
> Also, what about people such as Bruce, who had an extensive library of books that he was known to derive techniques from.
> 
> Now, dont get me wrong. I dont believe anything compares to training, in person, with a good quality instructor.
> 
> But, one must consider the variables.


Personally, I don't see any of those as options.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

So, it would be best not to train at all if you do not have a school near you. Got it.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> So, it would be best not to train at all if you do not have a school near you. Got it.


It depends on what you want.  If you want to get together with some buddies and beat the snot out of each other in the back yard, and become a reasonably capable brawler, well have at it.  Just understand what it is you are doing and what it is you are NOT doing.  You are NOT learning a martial system, even if you did watch some videos.

I recommend swimming, biking, weight training, running, etc. as better alternatives.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

I believe that if a person wants to learn the MA's, they will avail themselves of whatever mode they have access to.
I also beleve in whatever works for the individual, works. Regardlesd of instructors. Just my opinion.


----------



## Tames D

Flying Crane said:


> I recommend swimming, biking, weight training, running, etc. as better alternatives.


What if they don't have an instructor available? Just out of luck?


----------



## Flying Crane

Tames D said:


> What if they don't have an instructor available? Just out of luck?


Yes, actually.  Sometimes that how life works.


----------



## Tames D

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, actually.  *Sometimes *that how life works.


I agree with you. The key word being "sometimes". But not always.


----------



## Red Sun

mograph said:


> Amazing. She's so ... _alive_.
> Just asking, because I don't know boxing: what would be the benefit of her hitting the leaves?
> 
> 
> If he _had_ power, how would it look when he hit the bag? How would the bag move?
> 
> Thanks for the clips -- I'm just asking to fill some gaps in my knowledge.



I dunno why she's hitting leaves. *shrugs*

How the bag moves doesn't matter. Any random dude can rattle a bag with a haymaker. If all you needed to win a fight was power, we wouldn't need martial arts. The fact is, all of these guys would get more power out of wild swings than their crappy attempts at boxing. So, if he had power, his punches would look powerful 





Here's George Foreman throwing *good* haymak- Eh, body hooks.





And here's a random dude doing bagwork.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tames D said:


> I agree with you. The key word being "sometimes". But not always.


Yes. Sometimes a teacher is available to you.  Sometimes a teacher is not available to you.  That's life.


----------



## KPM

Tez3 said:


> Not a chance of dropping it when you command, I'm not yours to command......
> 
> Look I said you probably didn't mean it that way, it probably didn't sound that way in your head when you wrote it, but wrote it you did and no amount of back peddling on later posts will change what you wrote. Just accept you wrote something you later thought 'oh o' that didn't come across right, stop blaming other people, stop insulting them and just admit what you wrote was ambiguous at best, what we said it was at worst.


 

Now hold on.  Again, read the post.  I quoted it above.  I clearly said the person learning from video would need to seek hands on instruction at some point.  I wrote that plain as day.  I am not "back peddling", I'm not "blaming others", and I have been repeatedly insulted by saying I stated something that I didn't.   You guys keep beating a dead horse, so yeah...I can say "drop it" if I damn well please.


----------



## KPM

_Regardless of what you meant, reality is how the message was received.  Several of us received a message that you claim you never sent.  Well, we did receive it, like it or not._

----I can't help it if you have a reading comprehension problem.  And I have stated multiple times now that that was not what I meant.  So why do you guys continue to want to argue the point?  Why do you want to keep persisting in saying that I stated something that I clearly did not?  I can't help the way you "perceived it."  So just accept that you misunderstood what I was writing and go on. 


_However, in your example here, you still have got it backwards.  You claim that instruction FOLLOWING video instruction is a good way to go about it.  I completely disagree; you've got the horse before the cart here.  That initial video instruction has already got the student working on bad habits and poor comprehension, and now a good teacher has to undo that damage._

---Well, I completely disagree  with you.  It can work both ways.   Maybe not optimal, but it can work.  I know because I've done it.   So just agree to disagree and go on.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> _Regardless of what you meant, reality is how the message was received.  Several of us received a message that you claim you never sent.  Well, we did receive it, like it or not._
> 
> ----I can't help it if you have a reading comprehension problem.  And I have stated multiple times now that that was not what I meant.  So why do you guys continue to want to argue the point?  Why do you want to keep persisting in saying that I stated something that I clearly did not?  I can't help the way you "perceived it."  So just accept that you misunderstood what I was writing and go on.
> 
> 
> _However, in your example here, you still have got it backwards.  You claim that instruction FOLLOWING video instruction is a good way to go about it.  I completely disagree; you've got the horse before the cart here.  That initial video instruction has already got the student working on bad habits and poor comprehension, and now a good teacher has to undo that damage._
> 
> ---Well, I completely disagree  with you.  It can work both ways.   Maybe not optimal, but it can work.  I know because I've done it.   So just agree to disagree and go on.


It seems you've painted yourself into a corner sir.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> Now hold on.  Again, read the post.  I quoted it above.  I clearly said the person learning from video would need to seek hands on instruction at some point.  I wrote that plain as day.  I am not "back peddling", I'm not "blaming others", and I have been repeatedly insulted by saying I stated something that I didn't.   You guys keep beating a dead horse, so yeah...I can say "drop it" if I damn well please.



You made a statement in your first post that you then amended in subsequent posts doesn't take away from the meaning of that first post. that first post sets the scene as it were for the thread that follows.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> You made a statement in your first post that you then amended in subsequent posts doesn't take away from the meaning of that first post. that first post sets the scene as it were for the thread that follows.


Well to be fair, I'm willing to give credit for amending his position and acknowledging that an instructor is necessary and video alone won't cut it.

But as I've pointed out at least a couple times, he's still got some things backwards.


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> Well to be fair, I'm willing to give credit for amending his position and acknowledging that an instructor is necessary and video alone won't cut it.
> 
> But as I've pointed out at least a couple times, he's still got some things backwards.



Yep and I did say what he wrote probably didn't come out as he meant it, but learning the stuff from videos then finding an instructor is **** about face as they say  in Yorkshire.


----------



## geezer

"**** about face"? Thanks to the damn censor, I don't have a clue how to complete that phrase. I've tried substituting all the obscene four letter words I know (and there are quie a few of them) and it still doesn't make sense to this Yank. And I can't afford the air-fare to Yorkshire. 

Hey, can I learn it from a_ video?  _


----------



## Tez3

_


geezer said:



			"**** about face"? Thanks to the damn censor, I don't have a clue how to complete that phrase. I've tried substituting all the obscene four letter words I know (and there are quie a few of them) and it still doesn't make sense to this Yank. And I can't afford the air-fare to Yorkshire. 

Click to expand...

_


geezer said:


> _Hey, can I learn it from a video?  _



The censor here has a very odd idea of what is obscene, it's a completely non rude word  I wonder if it censors Arsenal? For goodness sake, it makes a mockery of the English language when English *non obscene* words are censored.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=****


----------



## geezer

Tez3 said:


> The censor here has a very odd idea of what is obscene, it's a completely non rude word  I wonder if it censors Arsenal? For goodness sake, it makes a mockery of the English language when English *non obscene* words are censored.
> Online Etymology Dictionary



Arsenal, arsenic, sparse... OK, I get it. Never would have thought of that. Yes, it's in my vocabulary, but not on my "don't use in front of mom" list!


----------



## Eric_H

Back to topic a bit, I had the opportunity to see some AR done with Hololens produced by a company called DoubleMe at a startup summit not long ago. It basically captures you in full 3d doing mostly anything. One of their stock examples was teaching ballet, you could view a professional ballet dancer as though they were right next to you, as well as move them about the room, resize and change angle to see exactly how they performed the move. 

Here's one of their teasers:





While it's still no substitute for live instruction, something like that I could see being much more beneficial to us martial arts guys than a flat video.


----------



## geezer

Wow, that is cool. It would definitely aid in many kinds of physical instruction. 

Of course the problem with WC remains that so much of what is important is about sensing and handling physical energy rather than appearance as in dance, or simple functionality as with many other skills.  Still, that was fascinating.


----------



## Flying Crane

geezer said:


> Wow, that is cool. It would definitely aid in many kinds of physical instruction.
> 
> Of course the problem with WC remains that so much of what is important is about sensing and handling physical energy rather than appearance as in dance, or simple functionality as with many other skills.  Still, that was fascinating.


And it cannot give feedback, which is critical.


----------



## Vajramusti

Flying Crane said:


> And it cannot give feedback, which is critical.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is specially important in learning good wing chun. Repeated hands on correction by a master.


----------



## Flying Crane

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> That is specially important in learning good wing chun. Repeated hands on correction by a master.


Yeah, it's a whole lot more than just follow and imitate the best you can.


----------



## Tez3

Eric_H said:


> Back to topic a bit, I had the opportunity to see some AR done with Hololens produced by a company called DoubleMe at a startup summit not long ago. It basically captures you in full 3d doing mostly anything. One of their stock examples was teaching ballet, you could view a professional ballet dancer as though they were right next to you, as well as move them about the room, resize and change angle to see exactly how they performed the move.
> 
> Here's one of their teasers:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While it's still no substitute for live instruction, something like that I could see being much more beneficial to us martial arts guys than a flat video.



Young girls going en pointe need more than a video, it's actually much more dangerous than martial arts. Girls are stuffing their ballet shoes with cotton wool and going up on their toes, can you imagine teaching yourself from a video how to do that? Try it for yourself.






This is something no one should teach themselves or learn from a video. The Dangers Of Teaching Yourself Pointe Work - The Ballet Blog


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> It seems you've painted yourself into a corner sir.



How do you figure?   I will quote myself again from the OP:

*Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


----------



## KPM

Tez3 said:


> Yep and I did say what he wrote probably didn't come out as he meant it, but learning the stuff from videos then finding an instructor is **** about face as they say  in Yorkshire.



Please see post immediately above.   Please read what I have actually written and then explain how I have made any kind of "about face" or "back pedaled", etc.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> Please see post immediately above.   Please read what I have actually written and then explain how I have made any kind of "about face" or "back pedaled", etc.



Yes you have said that they can train from a video and at some point will have to find an instructor....... yep, that's back to front. You are saying that people can learn the basics from a video then they have to find an instructor.....that's back to front. The usual, practical and sensible way is to find an instructor, learn the basics and use videos to polish, confirm or just practice what the instructor has taught you. You have made my point beautifully thank you.


----------



## KPM

Sorry, but I do not follow your logic.  To say that I have made any kind of "about face" or that I have "back pedaled" implies that I have switched my position or opinion.   That I have reversed what I have said previously.  I have not done that.  I have been consistent throughout this thread.  And I NEVER said that someone can learn solely from video as I have been accused of multiple times.  I have quoted the appropriate line frpm my OP now multiple times to show that.   Whether you believe that one can learn first from video and then from an instructor, or that one must start with an instructor and then supplement with video is a matter of opinion and we can agree to disagree.  I will just state again, as I have multiple times already, that in the past I have  been able to start with video and then follow up with a good instructor and it worked fine....for me.  So you can state that it won't work and that I have things backwards all you want.  For me personally, I know that to be wrong.


----------



## Tez3

'Accused', 'insulted' words indicating you are taking this very personally. No one has accused you, no one has insulted you. You are blaming others for their, in your eyes, lack of reading comprehension but if it were just one person seeing this then that could be true but it's not.
Telling complete beginners to learn from a video and then get an instructor, you would tell people to learn to ride a horse by video before finding an instructor or learn gymnastics including backflips etc? Either of these can result in you breaking your neck if you aren't taught correctly and in person. Have you actually learnt something that is potentially dangerous from scratch with no previous knowledge or training and become a competent and safe practitioner or have you with previous training just learnt a technique from a video?


----------



## KPM

_['Accused', 'insulted' words indicating you are taking this very personally. No one has accused you, no one has insulted you._

---Well yeah. When someone is misrepresenting what I have written, and then persists in telling me what I wrote despite my attempts to clarify....yeah,  I take that personally and see it as an attack on my integrity.

_You are blaming others for their, in your eyes, lack of reading comprehension but if it were just one person seeing this then that could be true but it's not._

----You are right.  And several other people have backed me up and suggested that crane go back and reread my OP.  Evidently others read what I wrote and followed what I meant just fine.  So I'm sorry if you and crane misunderstood what I wrote.  I have tried to clarify it multiple times now for you and you persist in maintaining that I said something that I didn't say. 


_Telling complete beginners to learn from a video and then get an instructor, you would tell people to learn to ride a horse by video before finding an instructor or learn gymnastics including backflips etc?_

---Yes!  If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor?  What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest?  Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach. 


_ Have you actually learnt something that is potentially dangerous from scratch with no previous knowledge or training and become a competent and safe practitioner or have you with previous training just learnt a technique from a video?_

---Well, let's see.  I learned some basic hand-gunning skills from a "Gunsite" video, went to the range for practice multiple times and managed to hit the target without shooting myself, including reloading "on the fly" and drawing from a holster.  Is that "dangerous" enough for you?   Like I stated before, I started learning Tang Yik Weng Chun pole and the first form from video that my instructor specifically sent to me for that purpose.  Then when I visited him for the first time in Hong Kong I had a good idea of what to expect and already knew the sequence of the entire first empty hand form and about the first 1/3 of the pole form.  Did I do it perfectly?  Heck no!  Did I need lots of corrections?  Of  course!   But by doing this I was way ahead of the game and was able to optimize my limited time in Hong Kong much better than if I had shown up knowing nothing.  Sifu was actually a bit impressed with how much I was able to pick up from the videos.  We worked on correcting my form, but I didn't have to  worry about remembering the basic sequence.  That helped tremendously.  He then encouraged me to film him showing me the next stages of learning so I could work on those before my next training visit to Hong Kong.  Just because you don't believe that you could do something like this is no reason to say that others can't do it.

---You failed to explain how you think I have "back pedaled"  or made any kind of "about face" in my position on this thread.  Please explain that bit of your logic to me.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> How do you figure?   I will quote myself again from the OP:
> 
> *Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!  At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


Yup, it's all backwards, that assertion you are making.

Instruction with a teacher comes first.  Later, IF done properly, and IF appropriate materials are used, then video can be a useful resource.

Video as the first source of instruction, trying to get a "head start" with the thought of finding a teacher later, is just full of problems and will create misunderstandings and bad habits that the teacher will need to fix.  One step forward, two steps back.  It's a net loss.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> ---Yes! If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor? What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest? Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach.



You are back pedalling now, you have changed what I said to something else. I said *'learn' *horse riding or gymnastics from a video, you say there's nothing wrong with looking at videos to see what it's about, no, you don't get to do that, I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. I ask again would you say that someone can learn horse riding and gymnastics *without prior knowledge from a video*? Now, I didn't mention young girls, so why do you assume it's girls? *gymnastics aren't always about floor work would you* *recommend people learn to use gymnastic apparatus by watching a video without instruction*? Also for your information 'young girls' are taught to do cartwheels by someone, *they do not learn to do them by watching videos which is what we are talking about.*

You seek to fog the issues which is why you are being picked up on.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

KPM said:


> _['Accused', 'insulted' words indicating you are taking this very personally. No one has accused you, no one has insulted you._
> 
> ---Well yeah. When someone is misrepresenting what I have written, and then persists in telling me what I wrote despite my attempts to clarify....yeah,  I take that personally and see it as an attack on my integrity.
> 
> _You are blaming others for their, in your eyes, lack of reading comprehension but if it were just one person seeing this then that could be true but it's not._
> 
> ----You are right.  And several other people have backed me up and suggested that crane go back and reread my OP.  Evidently others read what I wrote and followed what I meant just fine.  So I'm sorry if you and crane misunderstood what I wrote.  I have tried to clarify it multiple times now for you and you persist in maintaining that I said something that I didn't say.
> 
> 
> _Telling complete beginners to learn from a video and then get an instructor, you would tell people to learn to ride a horse by video before finding an instructor or learn gymnastics including backflips etc?_
> 
> ---Yes!  If they were truly interested in learning and had no access to an instructor immediately, what would be wrong with someone watching a video on various horseback riding methods....dressage, western, etc. to develop an understanding of what to expect from the instructor?  What would be wrong from a young girl watching gymnastics videos to get an idea of what to inspect from an instructor and even start working on some basic cartwheels and somersaults to encourage her enthusiasm and interest?  Young girls do somersaults and cartwheels all the time when playing without direct instruction from a gymnastics coach.
> 
> 
> _ Have you actually learnt something that is potentially dangerous from scratch with no previous knowledge or training and become a competent and safe practitioner or have you with previous training just learnt a technique from a video?_
> 
> ---Well, let's see.  I learned some basic hand-gunning skills from a "Gunsite" video, went to the range for practice multiple times and managed to hit the target without shooting myself, including reloading "on the fly" and drawing from a holster.  Is that "dangerous" enough for you?   Like I stated before, I started learning Tang Yik Weng Chun pole and the first form from video that my instructor specifically sent to me for that purpose.  Then when I visited him for the first time in Hong Kong I had a good idea of what to expect and already knew the sequence of the entire first empty hand form and about the first 1/3 of the pole form.  Did I do it perfectly?  Heck no!  Did I need lots of corrections?  Of  course!   But by doing this I was way ahead of the game and was able to optimize my limited time in Hong Kong much better than if I had shown up knowing nothing.  Sifu was actually a bit impressed with how much I was able to pick up from the videos.  We worked on correcting my form, but I didn't have to  worry about remembering the basic sequence.  That helped tremendously.  He then encouraged me to film him showing me the next stages of learning so I could work on those before my next training visit to Hong Kong.  Just because you don't believe that you could do something like this is no reason to say that others can't do it.
> 
> ---You failed to explain how you think I have "back pedaled"  or made any kind of "about face" in my position on this thread.  Please explain that bit of your logic to me.


Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home.

You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges. 

So, just bow out and leave them to fluff their egos. With people like this, they are always right and everyone else is wrong. If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth.

Have a great day.


----------



## Tez3

Guthrie said:


> Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home.
> 
> You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges.
> 
> So, just bow out and leave them to fluff their egos. With people like this, they are always right and everyone else is wrong. If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth.
> 
> Have a great day.



Not a _very_ arrogant post but it certainly panders to someone who writes something then says he doesn't. It's not a case that people like arguing, it's a case of people who are passionate about their art who are being dismissed by someone who thinks they and only they are correct. People aren't fluffing out their egos, frankly you haven't been here long enough to know who has an ego and who hasn't. I'll give you a clue, it's not those who are trying to get what KPM says straight. For a start no one has said you can't learn from a video ( so your post is incorrect), what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that *you can start teaching yourself* from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor. To think that you can teach yourself the basics then have a look round to see if you can find somewhere to train is storing up a lot of problems.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Tez3 said:


> Not a _very_ arrogant post but it certainly panders to someone who writes something then says he doesn't. It's not a case that people like arguing, it's a case of people who are passionate about their art who are being dismissed by someone who thinks they and only they are correct. People aren't fluffing out their egos, frankly you haven't been here long enough to know who has an ego and who hasn't. I'll give you a clue, it's not those who are trying to get what KPM says straight. For a start no one has said you can't learn from a video ( so your post is incorrect), what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that *you can start teaching yourself* from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor. To think that you can teach yourself the basics then have a look round to see if you can find somewhere to train is storing up a lot of problems.


Massively disagree. I have been here long enough to see the same people do the same thing when one doesnt agree with the statement.

Being passionate is ok. But, it doesnt make you right. People are individuals and people have varying opinions, things work for some that do not work for others.

The martial arts nor ways of training are set in stone. Some people get things immediately that takes others a lifetime to understand. But the constant arguing concerning what someone meant, takes away from constructive discussion.

If someone does change their original input, thats ok. The person probably didnt considered some of the points that have been made by others in their intitial statement and therefore adjusted their thinking.

KPM thinks video training is heplful and some people can learn from video with the help of a qualified instructor.

Although, I believe, personally, that an instructor is the best way to go, but still it is my personal opinion and it is what works for me. But, I understand the fact that people are individual and will do whats best for them and with dedication, can succeed.

KPM learned from a video first, then went to his instructor to fine tune it.

It worked for him, ttherefore for him, it worked.

I do agree with what you stated in a previous post..."isnt it funny how people read things differently".

I think that this is one of those cases.

Martial Talk is not an exclusive club, with a set of beliefs that must be followed and set in stone, regardless of what any longtimer suggest.
Although I do really respect your opinion tez, KPM never said video training alone is acceptable. I dont believe anyone here ever stated that.


----------



## Flying Crane

Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable.  He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.

Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues.  As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice their disagreement.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

I


Flying Crane said:


> Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable.  He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.
> 
> Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues.  As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice th


Agreed. But thats the problem with thinking something is implied, it comes from your mind...not the OP's. His 2nd and 3rd point, clearly showed KPM's personal opinion.

I think sometimes people forget that as individuals, every opinion is correct. Maybe not for the masses, but individually, we are all right. At least in our own minds.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Yup, it's all backwards, that assertion you are making.
> 
> Instruction with a teacher comes first.  Later, IF done properly, and IF appropriate materials are used, then video can be a useful resource.
> 
> Video as the first source of instruction, trying to get a "head start" with the thought of finding a teacher later, is just full of problems and will create misunderstandings and bad habits that the teacher will need to fix.  One step forward, two steps back.  It's a net loss.



Again.  Explain how I have "backed myself into a corner."  ??????   I have stated multiple times now that starting with video prior to getting with an instructor has worked at times  fine for me.   If you don't have the physical talent to do it, that's Ok.  But don't assume that others can't do it!


----------



## KPM

Tez3 said:


> You are back pedalling now, you have changed what I said to something else. I said *'learn' *horse riding or gymnastics from a video, you say there's nothing wrong with looking at videos to see what it's about, no, you don't get to do that, I asked you a direct question and you didn't answer. I ask again would you say that someone can learn horse riding and gymnastics *without prior knowledge from a video*? Now, I didn't mention young girls, so why do you assume it's girls? *gymnastics aren't always about floor work would you* *recommend people learn to use gymnastic apparatus by watching a video without instruction*? Also for your information 'young girls' are taught to do cartwheels by someone, *they do not learn to do them by watching videos which is what we are talking about.*
> 
> You seek to fog the issues which is why you are being picked up on.



Now you are trying to put words in my mouth again!  Geez!     I tried to answer in the spirit of your  question and the intent of the OP that started this thread.   Now you are nit-picking  things.    I will state again....I have not "back-pedaled" or done an "about face" on anything I stated in my OP.   You can twist things around any way you want.   But how about we just agree to disagree?


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Again.  Explain how I have "backed myself into a corner."  ??????   I have stated multiple times now that starting with video prior to getting with an instructor has worked at times  fine for me.   If you don't have the physical talent to do it, that's Ok.  But don't assume that others can't do it!


You keep asserting a faulty point of view, and have  no way out of it now.  Meh.


----------



## KPM

_Bud, they will just keep on going. I completely understand and agree with your statements. You need to understand that some people just like to argue on this site and will continue to do so until the cows come home_.

---Ain't that the truth!  

You can learn from video. There are things far more dangerous than the martial arts that are taught online through respected colleges.

_ If you do not agree with them...they put words in your mouth._

----Sir, you are a prophet.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> I
> 
> Agreed. But thats the problem with thinking something is implied, it comes from your mind...not the OP's. His 2nd and 3rd point, clearly showed KPM's personal opinion.
> 
> I think sometimes people forget that as individuals, every opinion is correct. Maybe not for the masses, but individually, we are all right. At least in our own minds.


Please review my post, number 232, and tell me your thoughts on what KPM said in the section I quoted.

Thx


----------



## KPM

what KPM is arguing and he did say it though he says he didn't is that *you can start teaching yourself* from a video (any random video) before you find an instructor.

---Geez lou..eeze!!!!!!     Reading comprehension skills people!  So important!  How about you get things straight before you go off on an "holier than thou" crusade!    I NEVER denied saying that!   In fact, just the opposite!  I have maintained that is exactly what I said!  What I did NOT say was that video can be someone's SOLE and ONLY form of instruction!  Go back and reread the thread.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable.  He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.
> 
> Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues.  As long as KPM continues to push a point that others disagree with, then those others can continue to voice their disagreement.



Dude.  The only thing I have clarified, multiple times now, is that you obviously missed the part in my OP where I said eventually the student will have to seek out an instructor.  It is there.  In the ORIGINAL POST.  I can't help it if you misinterpreted what I said.  But you only prove yourself a complete xxxxx to continue to say so.   I am not pushing any point other than that you need to stop saying that I wrote something  that I didn't, something that is clear for anyone else to go back and check.  YOU are the only that is pushing a point.  I've said multiple times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training.  But you keep pushing your opinion.


----------



## Tames D

I think one thing we can all agree on, and that is there are people on this forum that are unable to learn anything, unless a qualified professional is looking over their shoulder in person. And that's alright, if that is all that works for them. I don't have a problem with that. I just don't appreciate them insisting that others have to fit into that box.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Dude.  The only thing I have clarified, multiple times now, is that you obviously missed the part in my OP where I said eventually the student will have to seek out an instructor.  It is there.  In the ORIGINAL POST.  I can't help it if you misinterpreted what I said.  But you only prove yourself a complete xxxxx to continue to say so.   I am not pushing any point other than that you need to stop saying that I wrote something  that I didn't, something that is clear for anyone else to go back and check.  YOU are the only that is pushing a point.  I've said multiple times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training.  But you keep pushing your opinion.


Well you did.  I've said a couple times now that you clarified that particular point and I'm willing to accept that.  I wasn't going to stay on that particular issue, but Guthrie brought it up again.  That wasn't implied.  It was stated.  But I'm ok moving on from it.

You've got some other backwards notions tho, and I continue to disagree with those.

If this discussion is frustrating to you, then you can walk away from it, it makes no difference to me.  But if you keep disputing it, then so shall I.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> Now you are trying to put words in my mouth again!  Geez!     I tried to answer in the spirit of your  question and the intent of the OP that started this thread.   Now you are nit-picking  things.    I will state again....I have not "back-pedaled" or done an "about face" on anything I stated in my OP.   You can twist things around any way you want.   But how about we just agree to disagree?



I asked a simple question... 'do you think you can learn horse riding and gymnastics from videos', you didn't answer those questions. You changed it to looking at videos to get an idea of what to expect, thus circumventing my questions.  The point being that you asserted you could start learning from videos and then find an instructor. My point is that there are certain things that you really cannot learn and become competent at by watching a video then copying the actions, martial arts is one of them. A poster on MT remarked that he'd taught himself a kick from watching a video but he didn't like doing it as it hurt his hip when he did it. If he'd learnt from an instructor and used the video as an aide memoire that would be the right way around not video first then instructor.

I don't suppose you want to stop insulting people by claiming it's their reading comprehension any time soon, the only one getting on their high horse is you, everyone else is calm. And you do know that I'm talking about your cart before the horse idea and not saying you said only video don't you?


----------



## geezer

Tez3 said:


> I asked a simple question... 'do you think you can learn horse riding and gymnastics from videos'



Actually, history _proves_ that you _*can*_. For example, you can learn to be an absolutely _superb _horseman just by watching somebody from afar riding, then catching or stealing a horse and teaching yourself from scratch. It just takes a long time.

This is exactly what happened when the American Plains Indians saw Spaniards riding, then captured and bred horses and taught themselves how to ride, eventually developing a complete way of life built on horsemanship and riding skills equal to the best anywhere in the world.

It took a few generations though ...and what emerged was not the same style of riding as what the Spaniards and other Europeans used:

http://www.equitours.com/wp-content...l_-_The_Buffalo_Hunt_No_39_-_1919-818x539.jpg

So consider KPM's perspective. I happen to know that he's knowledgeable in HEMA. Hema guys are recreating lost European martial arts from _old manuscripts, _along with authentic reproductions of period weapons and trial and error practice.

Learning from the old treatises (some of which KPM has translated into English) must be really arduous and way-harder than learning from well made instructional videos, but gradually HEMA guys are getting it down and developing functional skills which are probably very close to what was practiced historically. I personally know some of these guys, and what they do has come a long way from the early days of SCA LARPing. It's true martial art practice.

So to say that you absolutely cannot learn without direct instruction ...well OK that's probably true for me, but it isn't universally true. A more honest assessment would be to say that learning without direct, hands on instruction is ridiculously hard, will take generations to master, and is as stupid as re-inventing the wheel! _No sane person would choose to take that route if there were any other choice._

Now in my experience, HEMA people, are typically bright, but _very stubborn and of questionable sanity._ And they have no other choice. The last masters of arms that could teach them in person died centuries ago. Come to think of it, I think I just described KPM!!!


----------



## Tez3

geezer said:


> So to say that you absolutely cannot learn without direct instruction



No, I didn't say that, *I said learn competently* therefore learning safely and being safe.. Different thing.


----------



## Phobius

Problem with learning from a video is not that "someone can do it". The PROBLEM is that as long as most can not without risk of injury it is dangerous to present it as a viable option on a respectable forum.

Of course some people are clever enough or have enough history to piece together instructions based on text or videos. Most people watch a video, consider the instruction to be as a bible and then try to copy every single movement to the best of their abilities. Any flaws in their actions they try to remedy in order to make everything look exactly the same.

What if what is shown in that video is how it is supposed to look once you trained it in a specific manner, such as kicking the head. You need to stretch properly so you do not damage your hip from trying to reach a height of your foot that is not where you should aim initially.

Or doing a punch with more power than your body is still equipped to handle, or a technique that you do not have enough balance to deal with. Or a hand technique and movement that because of crappy footwork causes you to bend your knee badly.

Before anyone has a chance to correct you of the most dire errors you have injured yourself and your time as a martial artists comes to an end before it even started.

And now we have not even reached the risk of you training yourself for years thinking you must be good because you have never seen any martial artist other than on video. Being bold you try to defend yourself from the wrong people and instead of running you end up in a gutter somewhere broken down to pieces.

So yes, start out by learning from videos, if it feels like a good idea for you. But please make sure to know it is your own decision and do not blame anyone if it ends badly. If you wanted a low risk, high gain you would have went to a class instead.


----------



## Tez3

Tez3 said:


> My point is that there are certain things that you really cannot learn and become competent at by watching a video



You see, I did say that.


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Kpm did state in the OP, or at least imply heavily, that video alone is viable.  He has since clarified his position on that point. I personally am willing to accept that.
> 
> Anyone here has the right to bow out of, or continue with, a discussion, as long as the discussion continues.  As long as Tez3, Flying Crane and others continue to attribute to KPM a point that he has not made, then KPM can continue to voice his disagreement.


Fixed that for you. 
so weird.  In the first paragraph you acknowledge that the poster has clarified his position.   In the second, you go right back to suggesting he has not and is at fault. Crazy.

As long as some posters do what you've done above, how can anyone blame the guy?


Flying Crane said:


> Well you did.  I've said a couple times now that you clarified that particular point and I'm willing to accept that.  I wasn't going to stay on that particular issue, but Guthrie brought it up again.  That wasn't implied.  It was stated.  But I'm ok moving on from it.
> 
> You've got some other backwards notions tho, and I continue to disagree with those.
> 
> If this discussion is frustrating to you, then you can walk away from it, it makes no difference to me.  But if you keep disputing it, then so shall I.


this is like the fourth or fifth time you've said you're moving on.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> You see, I did say that.


This is true.


----------



## Flying Crane

Phobius said:


> Problem with learning from a video is not that "someone can do it". The PROBLEM is that as long as most can not without risk of injury it is dangerous to present it as a viable option on a respectable forum.
> 
> Of course some people are clever enough or have enough history to piece together instructions based on text or videos. Most people watch a video, consider the instruction to be as a bible and then try to copy every single movement to the best of their abilities. Any flaws in their actions they try to remedy in order to make everything look exactly the same.
> 
> What if what is shown in that video is how it is supposed to look once you trained it in a specific manner, such as kicking the head. You need to stretch properly so you do not damage your hip from trying to reach a height of your foot that is not where you should aim initially.
> 
> Or doing a punch with more power than your body is still equipped to handle, or a technique that you do not have enough balance to deal with. Or a hand technique and movement that because of crappy footwork causes you to bend your knee badly.
> 
> Before anyone has a chance to correct you of the most dire errors you have injured yourself and your time as a martial artists comes to an end before it even started.
> 
> And now we have not even reached the risk of you training yourself for years thinking you must be good because you have never seen any martial artist other than on video. Being bold you try to defend yourself from the wrong people and instead of running you end up in a gutter somewhere broken down to pieces.
> 
> So yes, start out by learning from videos, if it feels like a good idea for you. But please make sure to know it is your own decision and do not blame anyone if it ends badly. If you wanted a low risk, high gain you would have went to a class instead.


and to add to the point here, this discussion is in the Chinese arts, Wing Chun sub-forum.  One thing I do know is that the Chinese methods, including Wing Chun, operate on principles of power generation, rooting, power transfer, etc. that can be difficult to see in action, especially for a beginner.  Doing it correctly and EFFECTIVELY means that you engage these principles with what you do.  It isn't the movement itself that is important.  It is HOW you do that movement that really matters, and only then is the actual movement important.  And that requires hands-on, physical instruction and lots and lots of correction on-going.  You cannot get that thru video.  If you don't understand the principles and you just do the movements then it's like driving a corvette with a lawnmower engine under the hood.  Sure it still looks nice, but the performance is decidedly lacking.  There is no depth in the training.

This is why I stated earlier that for anyone whose instruction has been only, or primarily, through video, I strongly suspect their skills are not so good as they may believe.

You just don't even know what it is that you don't know.


----------



## Flying Crane

Steve said:


> Fixed that for you.
> so weird.  In the first paragraph you acknowledge that the poster has clarified his position.   In the second, you go right back to suggesting he has not and is at fault. Crazy.
> 
> As long as some posters do what you've done above, how can anyone blame the guy?
> 
> this is like the fourth or fifth time you've said you're moving on.


In my second paragraph I was referring to a different point he had made.  My apologies if that wasn't clear.  Then Guthrie brought up the first issue again, so I clarified.

See what I did there?  I failed to communicate clearly, so I took ownership of it and didn't blame the misunderstanding on the other party.


----------



## Tez3

Flying Crane said:


> It isn't the movement itself that is important. It is HOW you do that movement that really matters, and only then is the actual movement important. And that requires hands-on, physical instruction and lots and lots of correction on-going. You cannot get that thru video



I am a very experienced karateka and MMAer, been at it for decades, I've tried JKD ( yes I know it's not WC) and found it very difficult *with* a first rate instructor, to learn from videos would be impossible even given I do understand what the instructor is talking about yet cannot do it.
I'm sure you can learn to copy moves from a video in a sort of monkey see, monkey do way but that isn't safe and is not going to make you a competent martial artist.


----------



## Flying Crane

Tez3 said:


> I am a very experienced karateka and MMAer, been at it for decades, I've tried JKD ( yes I know it's not WC) and found it very difficult *with* a first rate instructor, to learn from videos would be impossible even given I do understand what the instructor is talking about yet cannot do it.
> I'm sure you can learn to copy moves from a video in a sort of monkey see, monkey do way but that isn't safe and is not going to make you a competent martial artist.


yup, copying movement is easy.  I've done it.  I've learned forms that way.  It's not difficult.

 I dropped those forms from my practice years ago.  I was always embarrassed to admit how I had learned them.  Was always afraid I would run into someone who knew them legitimately, and he would see me for the fraud that i was.  I knew I didn't understand what I was doing, I was just a mimic.


----------



## geezer

Tez3 said:


> No, I didn't say that, *I said learn competently* therefore learning safely and being safe.. Different thing.



Yes. Learning  efficiently, safely and precisely according to cannon, or tradition, requires a competent instructor. But we aren't talking the apostolic succession in the C of E here, just martial skill. If the need is great and an instructor isn't available, humans are surprisingly apt at coming up with functional solutions. After all, the plains tribes produced highly competent horsemen.

Of course if you re-invent something rather than receiving it as passed down directly, it won't be precisely the same as the original. In the case of very traditional martial arts such as the _Koryu_ of Japan, I'm sure that if the lineage is broken, the art the art cannot be re-created and is considered lost forever ...at least that was the impression I got from posts by Chris Parker.

On the other hand in HEMA, a close and functional approximation is considered acceptable. And people are working very hard at accomplishing this with varying degrees of success. I've participated in a few HEMA classes and I felt the trainers to be competent -- that is well informed with functional skills and a well thought out, safe, and logical curriculum derived from the old treatises. The very existence of such arts in our times is again proof that one can, with difficulty, learn from written and video sources.

The real key it seems to me is to be part of a larger group that can experiment and test what you are coming up with. People going it alone often end up with very impractical and strange interpretations.


----------



## geezer

Oh... one more thing. None of what I said above really relates to WC ...or very much to the discussion here  ...because I firmly believe that for and individual to try to learning something like WC via "distance learning", videos, etc. alone is a fool's errand.  I've said as much before.

The other posts were meant as a sort of general reflection on the human potential to innovate, problem-solve and assimilate knowledge.


----------



## KPM

I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video.  I feel bad for them.  But there is nothing I can do about that.  However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly.   And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier. 

Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA.  That was going to be my next point.     These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.  And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year.  I know a lot of these guys.  And they are very good at what they do.  And what they do is a real martial art.  They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.   I have taken part in that  as well.  So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.  Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's.  I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique.   So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.

Now just stop to think a bit people.  Our martial ancestors took notes.  Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone.   Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference?  Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan?   To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Well that was insulting, arrogant and condescending..... quite the achievement 



KPM said:


> Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA.  That was going to be my next point.     These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.  And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year.  I know a lot of these guys.  And they are very good at what they do.  And what they do is a real martial art.  They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.



So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that  And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments



KPM said:


> I have taken part in that  as well.  So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.



You have translated Renaissance German and matched it to art work..extensively....ok.



KPM said:


> Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's.  I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique.   So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.



Interesting, did you teach yourself the sword with it?



KPM said:


> Now just stop to think a bit people.  Our martial ancestors took notes.  Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone.   Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference?  Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan?   To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.



True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it.

Now with that said, I have known a couple guys who taught themselves a style well enough to impress the teacher they eventually went to train with (one teacerh was Chen Zhenglei and the other was Park Bok Nam) However both had a lot of training in other arts before they tried it and one had some minor training in the art he picked up from video before. So I know it can be done, but it is rare that it is done well and it takes one with talent and attention to detail. But you know something neither of those guys ever showed the poor attitude you just showed with your last post....which make me think....The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks...

But for the majority of people out there, video learning is at best a supplement for training with a real teacher

I done, you have a nice day


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video.  I feel bad for them.  But there is nothing I can do about that.  However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly.   And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.
> 
> Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA.  That was going to be my next point.     These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.  And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year.  I know a lot of these guys.  And they are very good at what they do.  And what they do is a real martial art.  They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.   I have taken part in that  as well.  So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.  Before I drifted away from that and went back to my Asian martial arts studies I had translated a large part of Paulus Hector Mair's "Magnum Opus" from the 1500's.  I was the guy to ask about Mair's version of German Longsword technique.   So I find the fools that say it can't be done quite amusing and a bit frustrating I will admit.
> 
> Now just stop to think a bit people.  Our martial ancestors took notes.  Many lineages have documents written in poetic script and keywords to try and help remember what had been taught to them after the teacher was gone.   Don't you think those guys would have been thrilled to death if they could have made a video of their teacher for future reference?  Don't you wish there was more footage of Ip Man?.....or Uyeshiba?....or Funakoshi?.....or Wong Fei Hung?....or Leung Jan?   To denigrate the use of modern video...for whatever use or benefit it may give....is just plain stupid in my opinion.


Seems to me that what you are really doing is looking for validation in what you are doing.  That's in the flavor of the opening post, and certainly in this post.  Very defensive, upset that some would point out the glaring flaws in your approach, and obsessively certain you are right, arrogant enough to believe that you are that rare individual who can gain some success in this manner.  And desperately in need of approval.

You are free to do whatever you want.  You don't need my approval, nor anybody else's.

There you go.  You are free.  Happy now?


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> In my second paragraph I was referring to a different point he had made.  My apologies if that wasn't clear.  Then Guthrie brought up the first issue again, so I clarified.
> 
> See what I did there?  I failed to communicate clearly, so I took ownership of it and didn't blame the misunderstanding on the other party.


And so what should we do now?   If we follow  your example, it seems the answer is to keep bringing up your miscommunication over and over and not truly take you at your word.   I see what you actually did there, but I'm not sure at all yiu see it, and am positive you're not ready to take ownership of it.


----------



## Phobius

KPM said:


> I certainly realize that some people cannot think in 3 dimensions and so will never be able to pick up on a physical skill from a 2 dimensional book or video.  I feel bad for them.  But there is nothing I can do about that.  However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly.   And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.
> 
> Thanks Steve for bringing up HEMA.  That was going to be my next point.     These guys have recreated a skill and done it very well, not from video.....but from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.  And they are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year.  I know a lot of these guys.  And they are very good at what they do.  And what they do is a real martial art.  They would laugh at this whole argument about whether someone can learn effectively from video, because they have done it from books....old books....written in archaic foreign languages.   I have taken part in that  as well.  So yeah, instructional video is easy compared to trying to translate Renaissance era German and match it to art work, which I have done, quite extensively.



Just pointing out that learning easy is not easy based on being a video. Learning gets easier based on complexity of knowledge and clarity of description. 

Now learning if you already know much is easier than if you know nothing.

To say that learning something from a video for a beginner is very different from telling someone to research an art. You do research, test thesis, try, compare with other arts and so on. For a video people take it as being truth and try to mimic. Or are you suggesting people should not learn from videos but rather research the art using videos and try it with friends and study other similar arts to see if the core can be underst
ood? Quite a difference.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> I feel bad for them.





KPM said:


> However, for those same people to continue to assert that their disability applies to everyone equally is just plain silly. And for them to repeatedly try and twist someone else's words around to prove a point is even sillier.



Wow, you really want to put the knife in don't you and you say people are insulting you! I think you have made your position clear, you look down on everyone who doesn't think as you do and you are the only one who not only has a right to an opinion but your opinion is the only correct one. Fine, just watch you don't trip over anything with your nose so high in the air sneering at everyone.


----------



## KPM

Tez3 said:


> Wow, you really want to put the knife in don't you and you say people are insulting you! I think you have made your position clear, you look down on everyone who doesn't think as you do and you are the only one who not only has a right to an opinion but your opinion is the only correct one. Fine, just watch you don't trip over anything with your nose so high in the air sneering at everyone.



My friend, the EXACT same thing can be said of you, and crane!  Have you not pushed the point over and over despite my clarifying and reposting my comment from the OP?  Have you both not persisted in maintaining I said something that  I did not, despite my clarifying it over and over?   Sorry if I respond in kind.  Sorry if I return arrogance with arrogance.  That's just the way it is.  I could be all nicey and apologize.  But why should I.  You didn't.


----------



## KPM

_Well that was insulting, arrogant and condescending..... quite the achievement_

----Well, thank you!  I just returned like with like.  I repeatedly said we could agree to disagree, but they wouldn't listen to that.  Multiple times I pointed out that I personally on more than one occasion was able to learn from video before seeking out hands on instruction and they continued to say it couldn't be done.  So they were essentially saying I was lying.  Maybe I was a little less subtle, but in the end what is the difference?


_So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that  And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments_

---You would know if you were into HEMA.  You want names?   Jake Norwood... USA.  Richard Mardsen....USA.  John Patterson.....USA, Michael Edelson....USA.  Anders Linnard....Sweden.  Axel Peterson....Sweden.  Roger Norling....Sweden.  Matt Galas....Belgium. Mischael Lopez Cardoza....Holland.  Matt Easton...England.  Illka Harketanian...Finland.  Paul Wagner....Australia.   Perica Lopez....Mexico.  Roberto Martinez-Loyo....Mexico.  Fabrice Cognot...France.   Just a very few.  Large events are now held every year in the USA, Sweden, England, and Germany.  Here is one of the biggest ones held each year in the USA:

Home

Here is the one held in Sweden every year:


Swordfish | Celebrating European Martial Arts



_Interesting, did you teach yourself the sword with it?_

---Yes.  One researches it from the old texts.  Then puts it into practice training with others to see if the interpretation actually makes sense.  Compares notes with other people doing the same thing (working from the same text) to see if they are coming up with the same interpretation.  Practices with wasters, blunts, and eventually cutting practice with sharps.  Use it in competition against others to see if it holds up under pressure.   This has been going on within the HEMA community for over a decade now and the interpretations are getting better and better.  They have all gone off and left me behind because I have not kept up.



_True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it._

---I think you missed my point.


----------



## Red Sun

As a 3rd party observer...
Neither of you want to back down because it would 'validate' the other persons position.


----------



## KPM

_Seems to me that what you are really doing is looking for validation in what you are doing._

---Ok.  If it makes you happy.  Sure.   Are you not looking for validation of your own ideas?  Is that not why you keep posting the same assertions over and over?


_ upset that some would point out the glaring flaws in your approach, and obsessively certain you are right, arrogant enough to believe that you are that rare individual who can gain some success in this manner._

----I have said several times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training.  But you have continued to press your point that one cannot start out with video before an instructor.  So just who is being  "arrogant" and "obsessively certain" here??  I am not the only one that has protested to you lumping everyone into the same category that you are now calling a "rare individual."   Apparently, it isn't as rare as you think.  

---I probably shouldn't write this, and will likely get a "moderator warning" for it, but oh well.   I'm sure I will be accused of being "arrogant" and such, but oh well.  I'm probably doing it out of "ego" and "seeking validation", but oh well.  Some might find it amusing.  But I'm sure you will just gloss over it like everything else I have written.  But oh well.

1.  You have repeatedly maintained that in my OP I said that someone could learn a martial art entirely and solely from video.  This despite the fact that multiple  times I have reposted my comment from my OP where I said that hands on instruction was better and that eventually the video learner would have to seek out hands on instruction.  Others have backed me up and suggested you go back and read my OP again.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

2.  You have repeatedly maintained that I have "glaring flaws" in my idea that someone can start learning from video prior to finding an instructor and have said that it cannot work, despite the fact that I have pointed out how it has indeed worked well for me personally on more than one occasion.  Despite that fact that others here have said the same thing.  So obviously what you maintain does not apply to everyone.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

3.  You have said that I have "backed myself into a corner" and that I have "back pedaled" or made an "about face", despite the fact that I have simply repeated what I wrote in my OP over and over and have never changed my position on things.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?

And Tez3 followed you down the same rabbit-hole.   You both tell me something can never work that I have had work just fine for me on more than on occasion.  Yet you both call me "arrogant"?  Well, you two just carry on as you see fit.  I think I am now done with this discussion.


----------



## Tez3

KPM said:


> And Tez3 followed you down the same rabbit-hole. You both tell me something can never work that I have had work just fine for me on more than on occasion. Yet you both call me "arrogant"? Well, you two just carry on as you see fit. I think I am now done with this discussion.



Actually I never said 'it won't work' if you are going to quote me do it correctly, don't put words into my mouth. I never said 'it won't work' I said if you want to learn to do something competently and safely you need to be taught in person not learn from a video, I'm sure people can 'learn' all sorts from videos but not correctly, not safely and not competently from knowing nothing at all. You say you learnt things from videos, fine but how do we know that what you do is competent? Videos are good for checking, for polishing and for learning how a sequence in kata goes on but to actually learn to do it you need someone showing you the correct techniques etc.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> _Seems to me that what you are really doing is looking for validation in what you are doing._
> 
> ---Ok.  If it makes you happy.  Sure.   Are you not looking for validation of your own ideas?  Is that not why you keep posting the same assertions over and over?
> 
> 
> _ upset that some would point out the glaring flaws in your approach, and obsessively certain you are right, arrogant enough to believe that you are that rare individual who can gain some success in this manner._
> 
> ----I have said several times now that we can agree to disagree on the value of video training.  But you have continued to press your point that one cannot start out with video before an instructor.  So just who is being  "arrogant" and "obsessively certain" here??  I am not the only one that has protested to you lumping everyone into the same category that you are now calling a "rare individual."   Apparently, it isn't as rare as you think.
> 
> ---I probably shouldn't write this, and will likely get a "moderator warning" for it, but oh well.   I'm sure I will be accused of being "arrogant" and such, but oh well.  I'm probably doing it out of "ego" and "seeking validation", but oh well.  Some might find it amusing.  But I'm sure you will just gloss over it like everything else I have written.  But oh well.
> 
> 1.  You have repeatedly maintained that in my OP I said that someone could learn a martial art entirely and solely from video.  This despite the fact that multiple  times I have reposted my comment from my OP where I said that hands on instruction was better and that eventually the video learner would have to seek out hands on instruction.  Others have backed me up and suggested you go back and read my OP again.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?
> 
> 2.  You have repeatedly maintained that I have "glaring flaws" in my idea that someone can start learning from video prior to finding an instructor and have said that it cannot work, despite the fact that I have pointed out how it has indeed worked well for me personally on more than one occasion.  Despite that fact that others here have said the same thing.  So obviously what you maintain does not apply to everyone.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?
> 
> 3.  You have said that I have "backed myself into a corner" and that I have "back pedaled" or made an "about face", despite the fact that I have simply repeated what I wrote in my OP over and over and have never changed my position on things.  Don't you realize how stupid that makes you look?
> 
> And Tez3 followed you down the same rabbit-hole.   You both tell me something can never work that I have had work just fine for me on more than on occasion.  Yet you both call me "arrogant"?  Well, you two just carry on as you see fit.  I think I am now done with this discussion.


Ah.  Ok then.  Fixed my little red wagon you did.
Meh.


----------



## geezer

Three well informed forum members I've learned never to argue with: KPM, Tez, and most of all, Chris Parker.

With KPM and Tez you can sometimes_ persuade_ them to reconsider your point of view, but never go at them head-on. With Chris, it's best to just quietly bow out. I've never seen him change his mind or give up, no matter how many pages of argumentation and multi-quotes it takes. It's like trying to argue with my wife. 

Now when any of these smart and stubborn people lock horns, the only thing to do is sit back and grab the popcorn!


----------



## Tez3

geezer said:


> grab the popcorn!



What flavour? I love salted popcorn!


Of course I argue, I'm female, Scorpio and Jewish why wouldn't I argue lol. Seriously though the Jewish thing about arguing is true, we must examine everything, an unexamined life is not a life. It's not that KPM disagrees with my point that is mildly annoying, it's that he doesn't know what it is, he's mixed it up with Flying Cranes argument. My premise is quite simple ... you cannot learn martial arts (along with a lot of other things) *from scratch* from a video and that's it, a complete beginner cannot be expected to pick up a physical activity and perform it to a competent standard ( a safe one too) without someone to correct them in the beginning. To try to teach yourself then find an instructor is the wrong way round,* find a* *teacher* which incidentally is a saying from the Sayings of the Jewish Fathers a book of wisdom.


----------



## SaulGoodman

Tez3 said:


> What flavour? I love salted popcorn!
> 
> 
> Of course I argue, I'm female, Scorpio and Jewish why wouldn't I argue lol. Seriously though the Jewish thing about arguing is true, we must examine everything, an unexamined life is not a life. It's not that KPM disagrees with my point that is mildly annoying, it's that he doesn't know what it is, he's mixed it up with Flying Cranes argument. My premise is quite simple ... you cannot learn martial arts (along with a lot of other things) *from scratch* from a video and that's it, a complete beginner cannot be expected to pick up a physical activity and perform it to a competent standard ( a safe one too) without someone to correct them in the beginning. To try to teach yourself then find an instructor is the wrong way round,* find a* *teacher* which incidentally is a saying from the Sayings of the Jewish Fathers a book of wisdom.


I think instructionals can help if you're actively training the art with a competent teacher but I struggle with the idea that you can learn solely from DVDs etc.


----------



## Flying Crane

SaulGoodman said:


> I think instructionals can help if you're actively training the art with a competent teacher but I struggle with the idea that you can learn solely from DVDs etc.


Sure, and just to be fair, KPM has clarified that he also does not advocate instruction purely thru video, without a teacher.  His early statements did make the claim (tho he claims not), but he has come back and said no, he did not mean that.

Ok, I've got no problem with that, it's fair game.

The point that I am in disagreement with is that he feels it is appropriate to begin learning thru video to get a head start, before starting with a teacher.  And it sounded like a random sort of arrangement, whatever videos were convenient and without having any solid plans to begin with a teacher.  I believe he presented it as a way to try out the system before deciding to make travel commitments to see a teacher.  

I MIGHT be able to get on board with the idea of an arrangement with a teacher who provides video material for a new student to get acquainted with, in the context of a solid agreement to begin attending class in a couple weeks or something.  Ok, I could see that as a possibility.  But not as a simple exploration to try and get a grounding in a system first, and someday maybe find the time to track down a teacher.

No, I can't support that notion at all.

So there it is.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Hmmmmm...maybe I should test this theory. I have been looking for a new art to learn and haven't had to much luck locally. 

Tried the Doshinkan, but when I asked about overall starting cost, I never recieved a response. Emailed him again and no response.

I have the time and the room at home.


----------



## SaulGoodman

I once met a guy who was teaching a wing chun class and wore a black sash. I just watched and thought 'hmmmm this guy isn't very good". The students seemed to love him and I later found out that he was a "video black sash". At that point if he'd come to me as a student I would have had to take him back to ground zero and start all over, I don't think he would have liked it. After a few months his class (and him) dissapeared, a good thing imo


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> Hmmmmm...maybe I should test this theory. I have been looking for a new art to learn and haven't had to much luck locally.
> 
> Tried the Doshinkan, but when I asked about overall starting cost, I never recieved a response. Emailed him again and no response.
> 
> I have the time and the room at home.


I asked for your thoughts on a previous post.  Have you had a chance to review that?


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> Hmmmmm...maybe I should test this theory. I have been looking for a new art to learn and haven't had to much luck locally.
> 
> Tried the Doshinkan, but when I asked about overall starting cost, I never recieved a response. Emailed him again and no response.
> 
> I have the time and the room at home.


If there were an instructional video available of my system, Tibetan white crane, I would suggest you give it a try and I would love to meet up and see how you do.  Alas, I am not aware of any.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Flying Crane said:


> If there were an instructional video available of my system, Tibetan white crane, I would suggest you give it a try and I would love to meet up and see how you do.  Alas, I am not aware of any.


Excellent idea, it would be a controlled experiment. I will research and see if any are available.

And in response to your first post...no I have not, is it in the Doshinkan thread?


----------



## Flying Crane

Flying Crane said:


> Please review my post, number 232, and tell me your thoughts on what KPM said in the section I quoted.
> 
> Thx


Here it is...
Honestly, it's kind of a moot point, as I've said, KPM has clarified his position so it doesn't really matter.  But if you are interested.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> Excellent idea, it would be a controlled experiment. I will research and see if any are available.
> 
> And in response to your first post...no I have not, is it in the Doshinkan thread?


I am not aware of any instructional video, but if you find some, let me know.  

It could be a good one given that it's kind of a rare system, doubtful you would be able to find an instructor of any level outside of a couple areas in the USA.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I am not aware of any instructional video, but if you find some, let me know.
> 
> It could be a good one given that it's kind of a rare system, doubtful you would be able to find an instructor of any level outside of a couple areas in the USA.



Just out of curiosity, what version of White Crane does Yang Jwing Ming Teach?

He has videos, but i beleive he is only teaching the Qigong bits by video,


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Flying Crane said:


> I am not aware of any instructional video, but if you find some, let me know.
> 
> It could be a good one given that it's kind of a rare system, doubtful you would be able to find an instructor of any level outside of a couple areas in the USA.


A question, are you aware of any in the Washington state area? There are a few vids I have found and an instructional for shaolin white crane (curious if its the same?) but you are right about instructional vids on Tibetan, there isn't much.


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> The point that I am in disagreement with is that he feels it is appropriate to begin learning thru video to get a head start, before starting with a teacher.
> 
> ------
> 
> If there were an instructional video available of my system, Tibetan white crane, I would suggest you give it a try and I would love to meet up and see how you do.  Alas, I am not aware of any.



??????????


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, and just to be fair, KPM has clarified that he also does not advocate instruction purely thru video, without a teacher.  His early statements did make the claim (tho he claims not), but he has come back and said no, he did not mean that.
> 
> .



Once again, from the OP:

*Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


----------



## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Just out of curiosity, what version of White Crane does Yang Jwing Ming Teach?
> 
> He has videos, but i beleive he is only teaching the Qigong bits by video,


He is Fujian method, completely different.  It's what people call southern shaolin crane, and is probably an ancestor of wing chun.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> Once again, from the OP:
> 
> *Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*


I don't really care, but this isn't the part I was talking about.  If you really want to know, review my post, #232 in this thread.  I quote you there.


----------



## Phobius

KPM said:


> Once again, from the OP:
> 
> *Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction! At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training. But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.*



I disagree on terms that there are so many beginners out there that can hurt their shoulders badly just trying to mimic a simple move such as bong Sau. 

Damage their spine and get a bad sense of structure from doing SLT. 

Hurt their hand trying a chain punch on a bag. 

There are so many details obvious to an instructor that a video student knows nothing about. 

Can it work? Yes. Should it be a general advice? No. 

So in a public thread titled Can you learn from a video? For the sake of safety we should be stating a resounding No. Or take some blame if people get hurt.


----------



## Flying Crane

Guthrie said:


> A question, are you aware of any in the Washington state area? There are a few vids I have found and an instructional for shaolin white crane (curious if its the same?) but you are right about instructional vids on Tibetan, there isn't much.


Not aware of anyone in that area.  There are three sister methods, all descended from a common Tibetan ancestor, they are Tibetan white crane, Hop Gar, and Lama Pai.  No longer the same, but share some root concepts and principles, tho the forms are different now and I suspect the training methodology may be somewhat different.  I'm not really familiar with the other two, so can't say for sure.  I think there are some Lama and perhaps hop gar descendants in the NY City area, but I don't know who exactly, or how to get in touch.  If heard if some others on the east coast, but again not sure who or where exactly.

Edit: I just realized you said Washington State.  I read it as DC.  I've got nothing in your neck of the woods, nothing I'm aware of.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ??????????


You have a question?


----------



## KPM

Phobius said:


> I disagree on terms that there are so many beginners out there that can hurt their shoulders badly just trying to mimic a simple move such as bong Sau.
> 
> Damage their spine and get a bad sense of structure from doing SLT.
> 
> Hurt their hand trying a chain punch on a bag.
> 
> There are so many details obvious to an instructor that a video student knows nothing about.
> 
> Can it work? Yes. Should it be a general advice? No.
> 
> So in a public thread titled Can you learn from a video? For the sake of safety we should be stating a resounding No. Or take some blame if people get hurt.



Quoting again from my OP:

*Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should be able to benefit.*


----------



## KPM

Flying Crane said:


> You have a question?



You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?


----------



## Xue Sheng

KPM said:


> You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?



Obviously I am not Flying Crane, but when you take the two statements you posted out of context, like you did, then yes they are contradictory. But in context with this post in between



Guthrie said:


> Hmmmmm...maybe I should test this theory. I have been looking for a new art to learn and haven't had to much luck locally.
> 
> Tried the Doshinkan, but when I asked about overall starting cost, I never recieved a response. Emailed him again and no response.
> 
> I have the time and the room at home.



And with Flying Cranes full post



Flying Crane said:


> If there were an instructional video available of my system, Tibetan white crane, I would suggest you give it a try and I would love to meet up and see how you do.  Alas, I am not aware of any.



Then no, it becomes an test to see what happens, not an endorsement. But then I doubt Guthrie is a beginner with no MA background trying to learn from a video either.


----------



## KPM

^^^^ BLUF is that crane has been saying it was a bad idea and he wouldn't recommend it, and then he turned around and recommended it.  For the most part I think, Guthrie wasn't speaking in terms of...."I don't believe this theory and we should test it out".  He seemed to be speaking in terms of...."I'm in search of something new to learn and am considering Tibetan Crane".   Flying Crane didn't say..."wait until you can find an instructor...or come and visit me and I will get you started".  No, he endorsed the idea of looking for an instructional video to get Guthrie started.  

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong.  Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!"  Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

Regardless, it is still contradictory for someone that was so opposed to the approach to turn around and recommend it, even as an experiment!   It would have been much more appropriate to tell Guthrie to wait until he could meet with a Tibetan Crane instructor in person, given all that Flying Crane has written so far.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Not exactly sure what "^^^^ BLUF" is supposed to mean but you should probably get Flying Cranes response to this as well; I do not speak for him. My only point was you were taking it out of context and without context it appeared to be one thing when in fact it is another, which to me, if intentional, is a bit disingenuous. If not intentional then I just wanted to point out the possibility of it being misinterpreted

You appear to be desperately trying to prove yourself right and all those that disagree wrong while insulting others becoming "Much Ado About Nothing"

And you have yet to answer my questions of post #312 by the way.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??

More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.

So far I have found limited vids on the white crane system.

Therefore I have decided to try two well known online video courses that are controversial but are offered by well known instructors.

1) Jerry PoteetPoteet's online course: 
Most of my training deals with classical arts and I have zero experience with JKD
2) Gracie University
Two reasons for this one. 
A) It has been discussed quite often here in MT and is familiar with several members.
B) I have zero ground experience in a the martial arts and was in a lengthy discusion here on MT, with other members and feel that I owe it a chance.

Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon and these two systems are present in the area. Which would allow me to test the results with experienced practitioners.

As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.


----------



## Xue Sheng

KPM said:


> But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong.  Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!"  Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??



It appears the answer is "test"



Guthrie said:


> More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Guthrie said:


> But Guthrie, please correct me if I am wrong. Where you thinking "I really don't believe it will work, so let's do an experiment and test it!" Or where you thinking more along the lines of "I'm interested in learning something new, and would like to check out Tibetan Crane"??
> 
> More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system.
> 
> So far I have found limited vids on the white crane system.
> 
> Therefore I have decided to try two well known online video courses that are controversial but are offered by well known instructors.
> 
> 1) Jerry PoteetPoteet's online course:
> Most of my training deals with classical arts and I have zero experience with JKD
> 2) Gracie University
> Two reasons for this one.
> A) It has been discussed quite often here in MT and is familiar with several members.
> B) I have zero ground experience in a the martial arts and was in a lengthy discusion here on MT, with other members and feel that I owe it a chance.
> 
> Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon and these two systems are present in the area. Which would allow me to test the results with experienced practitioners.
> 
> As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.



I did some JKD (not much, but a little) and it was in the Jerry Poteet line (my teacher's teacher) and although I have not seen the online stuff I do have one of his old DVDs (originally VHS, that's what I mean by old) and it is pretty good, but I am not a judge of how good it is for one with no experience in MA or JKD since it covers pretty much what I was taught by my teacher. I would be interested in hearing how that goes, should you go JKD.


----------



## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> You didn't see those two comments as contradictory?


I'm not advocating.  It's a challenge.  Guthrie says maybe he can do it.  I know he can't.  But if he tried with my system then at least I could make an evaluation of the results.

But somehow I think you knew this.

It won't happen, instructional videos of my system don't exist.


----------



## Phobius

KPM said:


> Quoting again from my OP:
> 
> *Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should be able to benefit.*



I understand your point of view. But in what way would having physical talent help them benefit if they learn stuff that will ruin/injuring them in the long run? Having physical talent is indeed a key factor but it does not remove risks or injuries. In fact in some cases it might even make those injuries worse.

So I am asking again, do you think in general terms as a recommendation for all "newbies" with no prior experience of martial arts it is a good idea to state in a post that they are recommended to study videos and learn from there before seeing an instructor?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Guthrie said:


> As for the perimeters of the test, any suggestions will be helpful.


I don't know anything about Jerry Poteet's material, but I'm familiar with Gracie University and can suggest some parameters for testing your ability to learn effectively through GU.

First, some guidelines for the study process:

You'll need at least one reliable training partner to study and practice with. You *cannot* learn the material without a training partner and the GU instructors (Rener and Ryron) say as much. Preferably the training partner(s) should be reliable, safety-conscious, patient, detail-oriented, open minded, fit and coordinated enough so that they won't be falling over for techniques that you haven't even applied all the way, but not so competitive that they're trying to spoil your techniques to prove they don't work. Someone with prior martial arts experience but an open mind for learning something new would be ideal.
Carefully follow _*all*_ the instruction, including the bits on how to study and train and drill and stay safe and coach each other, not just the techniques.
Take notes on the details which are explained for each technique and then video yourself and your partner(s) to see if you are executing those details.
The lessons are sequential and build on each other, so go through them in order and expect to review each lesson at least 2-3 times before you get a reasonably solid grasp of the material.
Now, some ideas for the testing process:


Ideally, you would do a pre-test to gauge your starting ability on the ground. If you can, find a trustworthy friend who is reasonably large and athletic but does not have any grappling experience. Have him put on a pair of boxing gloves and sit on your chest while you are flat on your back. See if you can escape the mount without getting hit in the face too much. (Tell your friend to hit softly - no point in getting a concussion before you even start training.) Have him put you in a headlock and try to drag you to the ground - see if you can escape without just hitting him in the groin. Have him try to hold you down in side control. Have him start in your guard and see if you can keep him from hitting you. After that, start him on the bottom of mount with you on top and see how easily you can hold him down. Take notes or (preferably) video. This will be your baseline. (If you don't have an appropriate friend to help with the test, see if your local BJJ school offers trial classes. Try out as many of those as you can and get in as many rounds of live rolling as you can.) (In fact, even you do have a friend to do the test with, it's worth trying the actual classes as well so you can get a baseline for how easy it is to follow the teacher's instruction.)
The GU white belt material (Gracie Combatives) consists of 36 lessons and is focused on dealing with the most common behaviors by an _untrained_ opponent, while also laying the groundwork for later lessons which are focused more on dealing with skilled grapplers. These are the same lessons which are taught in person at the Gracie Academy and students must complete each class 3 times before they are allowed to test for their first belt. You might want to set a goal of working your way through the entire 36 lessons three times before you go out and test the results.
Find the friend you did your baseline test with and go through the same set of tests. See how much improvement you have made.
Sign up for classes at a local BJJ school. (Don't tell them you have been studying online.) If possible, find a school that offers actual beginner classes so you don't get thrown into classes on exotic tournament techniques right away. See whether your practice with the GU material provides you with the background to more easily understand what the instructor is showing. When it comes time to roll, you_ will_ get crushed by most of the students who have been there a while - they've been sparring a bunch of other grapplers while you've been drilling with whatever friend(s) you were able to rope into your experiment. Don't worry about that. Just try to evaluate whether you are learning more and rolling better than you would have if you came in with no background.
If you have sparring partners for your standup art, see if you can get them to allow takedowns and ground-fighting in some of your sparring sessions. See if you have an advantage against sparring partners who have not been doing the GU lessons with you.

If you decide to do the experiment, take notes and keep us posted. If nothing else, the GU material is an excellent example for instructors who want to see how much explanatory detail can be packed into every technique.


----------



## KPM

_Not exactly sure what "^^^^ BLUF" is supposed to mean_

---Bottom Line Up Front.  Sorry.  Its a military term.

_  My only point was you were taking it out of context and without context it appeared to be one thing when in fact it is another, which to me, if intentional, is a bit disingenuous. If not intentional then I just wanted to point out the possibility of it being misinterpreted_

---Not intentional at all.  As I said, even if it was meant as a test, after Flying Crane has so strongly spoken out against this approach it seems he would be doing Guthrie a disserve to even recommend it as a test.  And now he admits he knew that there were no videos of Tibetan Crane available anyway.  Is not that a bit "disingenuous"? 


_You appear to be desperately trying to prove yourself right and all those that disagree wrong while insulting others becoming "Much Ado About Nothing"_

---No.  I am simply pointing out  the problems someone is having with his logical thought process in a discussion where he has repeatedly said I have backed myself into some kind of corner or made an "about face" or reversed my position.  None of which I have done.  So just pointing how he continues to have problems with how he posts on this thread. 

_And you have yet to answer my questions of post #312 by the way._

---Uh....did you miss post #318?


----------



## KPM

Phobius said:


> So I am asking again, do you think in general terms as a recommendation for all "newbies" with no prior experience of martial arts it is a good idea to state in a post that they are recommended to study videos and learn from there before seeing an instructor?



Yes I do.  I still don't see anything wrong with what I wrote originally in my OP.   Everything is "buyer beware."  Somebody could go to their initial first class with an instructor, see the more advanced students doing something, and then attempt that at home and end up hurting themselves.   People have to take responsibility for things like that.  To say I should somehow  be accountable for my advice if someone goes off and does something stupid to hurt themselves is silly.  After all, guys like Leung Ting, William Cheung, Samuel Kwok, Benny Meng, etc....have all put out instructional tapes for general public distribution.  Should they all be liable if someone follows their video and hits a bag wrong and hurts their wrist????

Of course I should qualify things by protesting against the use of "all" in your comments.   One can never say "all" or "everyone" because there are always exceptions to the rule.  The guy with no physical talent and no common sense maybe shouldn't be studying martial arts at all, let alone from a video.


----------



## KPM

_More along the lines of a test. Although I have experience(in a few different systems) I am looking to test whether or not a person can learn a system thru video, while not having any experience in that particular system._

---Ok.  Fair enough.  I think you would do Ok, given you clearly have some experience and common sense.  Flying Crane seems to think he is setting you up for failure.  Nice guy, don't you think?  



_Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon_

---Ok then!  If I was you I would forget all of that and drive up to Washington state to train with Maha Guru Stevan Plinck in Pencak Silat Serak.  He also has students in the Portland area that you could get with.  He is a well recognized "Master", and I do not use that term lightly.


----------



## Blindside

KPM said:


> _Also, I am located about 50 miles east of Portland Oregon_
> 
> ---Ok then!  If I was you I would forget all of that and drive up to Washington state to train with Maha Guru Stevan Plinck in Pencak Silat Serak.  He also has students in the Portland area that you could get with.  He is a well recognized "Master", and I do not use that term lightly.



I will second that, I have never worked with him but have many friends who have and all have nothing but outstanding things to say.


----------



## Xue Sheng

KPM said:


> ---Uh....did you miss post #318?



Apparently I did, sorry, but I tend to look for quotes like done on MT, 





> like this


 not Italics, I will look for those in the future



KPM said:


> _So...you know a lot of guys that learned from from books.....old books....written in archaic foreign languages, that  And are good enough at it now that they hold international tournaments that are getting larger every year...who might all of these guys be? We must know them since they hold international tournaments_
> 
> ---You would know if you were into HEMA.  You want names?   Jake Norwood... USA.  Richard Mardsen....USA.  John Patterson.....USA, Michael Edelson....USA.  Anders Linnard....Sweden.  Axel Peterson....Sweden.  Roger Norling....Sweden.  Matt Galas....Belgium. Mischael Lopez Cardoza....Holland.  Matt Easton...England.  Illka Harketanian...Finland.  Paul Wagner....Australia.   Perica Lopez....Mexico.  Roberto Martinez-Loyo....Mexico.  Fabrice Cognot...France.   Just a very few.  Large events are now held every year in the USA, Sweden, England, and Germany.  Here is one of the biggest ones held each year in the USA:



So all of those guys learned from books written in archaic foreign languages, what did they learn?

Mind you. I am not saying it can't be done, there is a group in Singapore that does this "Historical Combat Association (Singapore)". chineselongsword.com. But the question is, how accurate are those who do this? and is there anyway to really tell. Sadly, as you pointed out, there are no videos of the originators of this to compare it to. Also the gentleman in Singapore is not your average person, as I am guessing the people you are referring to are not ether, as it applies to the guy buying a DVD to self teach themselves a marital art with little or no experience 



KPM said:


> _True, but they took notes while training with there Shifu, they did not give those notes to others and say here, go teach yourself. And wanting more footage of historical marital arts figures of the past is, IMO not the same as grabbing a video and learning from it._
> 
> ---I think you missed my point.



Actually I do not think I did, but lets agree to disagree here.


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## Dirty Dog

KPM said:


> ---Not intentional at all.  As I said, even if it was meant as a test, after Flying Crane has so strongly spoken out against this approach it seems he would be doing Guthrie a disserve to even recommend it as a test.  And now he admits he knew that there were no videos of Tibetan Crane available anyway.  Is not that a bit "disingenuous"?



I would say it's more an example of keeping an open mind. There have been any number of changes in the world of medicine in the last 30 years that, after reading the preliminary studies, struck me as being incredibly awesome or stupid. Further research has sometimes shown me to be correct, and sometimes incorrect.


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## Tony Dismukes

Xue Sheng said:


> So all of those guys learned from books written in archaic foreign languages, what did they learn?
> 
> Mind you. I am not saying it can't be done, there is a group in Singapore that does this "Historical Combat Association (Singapore)". chineselongsword.com. But the question is, how accurate are those who do this? and is there anyway to really tell.


It's an interesting question. Kirk Lawson and the other HEMA practitioners here can go into more detail than I can. I had a really cool interview with Kirk and some other HEMA instructors a couple of years ago, but unfortunately lost the phone it was recorded on before I could get it transcribed. 

From what I've gathered, here's what you can tell about the efforts of the HEMA community:

1) They've developed practitioners who have genuine skill and can fight.
2) The techniques and tactics they use match the pictures and written descriptions in the historical documents.
3) There is an ongoing research effort to find new historical documents, to compare and cross-check them with reconstructed training methods and surviving lineages, in an effort to improve the accuracy of the reconstructed martial arts.

What we don't know is whether the reconstructions have captured all the nuances of the original arts as practiced by the people who wrote those books generations ago. What we do know is that the reconstructions are functional.


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## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ---Not intentional at all.  As I said, even if it was meant as a test, after Flying Crane has so strongly spoken out against this approach it seems he would be doing Guthrie a disserve to even recommend it as a test.  And now he admits he knew that there were no videos of Tibetan Crane available anyway.  Is not that a bit "disingenuous"?


Hmmm... Except for the fact that I didn't suggest the idea.  Guthrie did.  He said maybe he would give the video learning thing a try and see what happens.  He proposed an experiment, to evaluate the truth in the pro and con positions on this issue.

Since he suggested the experiment, I simply said if he tried it with my art, I could then evaluate the results, um...because it is an art that I do know something about and could evaluate.  But guess what?  I also said from the get-go that I doubt he would find any instructional videos, I am not aware of any that exist.  

This is sad, quite frankly.  You are so upset that some of us have continued to challenge your ideas that you are roping any tenuous statements together to manufacture an imaginary argument in support of your position.  You know you are doing it, I don't really need to explain this to you other that to let you know that it is obvious what you are doing.

You are pathetic.  Your ethics are questionable at best.


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## KPM

^^^^ And take a good look in the mirror.  The same thing applies to you. You have maintained over and over that I have said something that I didn't and that I reversed my opinion when I didn't despite my best attempts to show otherwise.  Is that not pathetic?  What is your usual response here...let's see.... Meh!   So let's drop it now and move on, as I have already suggested several times.


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## Flying Crane

KPM said:


> ^^^^ And take a good look in the mirror.  The same thing applies to you. You have maintained over and over that I have said something that I didn't and that I reversed my opinion when I didn't despite my best attempts to show otherwise.  Is that not pathetic?  What is your usual response here...let's see.... Meh!   So let's drop it now and move on, as I have already suggested several times.


Done.  Meh.


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## Red Sun

Question: Is there a consensus on whether it's a good idea to train in a dojo if you can only make it out there once or twice a month (or even less often?)

...is this a thing?


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## Dirty Dog

Red Sun said:


> Question: Is there a consensus on whether it's a good idea to train in a dojo if you can only make it out there once or twice a month (or even less often?)
> 
> ...is this a thing?



Training with a good instructor is your best bet. Full stop.
Being able to do so on an infrequent basis will slow your progress, especially in the early stages of training, but any training is better than none.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Red Sun said:


> Question: Is there a consensus on whether it's a good idea to train in a dojo if you can only make it out there once or twice a month (or even less often?)
> 
> ...is this a thing?


You go to school to learn. You then come home to train. Sometime if you go to a good workshop, you can learn 3 years training material within 3 hours.


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## KPM

Red Sun said:


> Question: Is there a consensus on whether it's a good idea to train in a dojo if you can only make it out there once or twice a month (or even less often?)
> 
> ...is this a thing?



You find a training partner or two...preferably people from your area that are making the same trek to train with the same instructor....you get a good video camera and tape the instructor's lesson, or whatever homework he/she gives you, or however they want to work it....then you train with your partners with the video as reference material as often as you can between trips to train with the instructor.   Definite "thing."


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## Argus

So... I'm going to comment here without having read the last 18 pages. Forgive me if I'm totally missing context or am presenting an already well argued point. However, I think I can offer some insight.

I believe that you can learn from videos, for sure - even without prior experience. Why? Because, actually, as much as I fear to admit it, this is exactly what I did as a beginner.

When I showed up to my first class, I already had my stance, punches, and a few other techniques squared away. I tried to hide the fact that I had practiced them, but the teacher was impressed and surprised that I was doing them correctly from the get-go.

Before going to that class, I was expressly told on this forum that I couldn't possibly learn anything from videos, and that I'd be doing everything wrong, but that wasn't the case. I did a lot of things right, and corrected any small errors quite easily, and I think it gave me a good head-start and overall understanding when I did get out to a school and start training there. It also has continued to help as a supplement to my training, as my school was more than 2 and a half hours away. I also recorded my lessons, which helps significantly.

That said, I do not think one can usually learn an entire art from videos. One can do that with something such as HEMA with historical sources along with videos of other practitioners, and a proper, scholastic mindset and approach, however, so it may be more plausible than most would imagine.

It does take, however, very good discernment and self-awareness, and this discernment is not something one gains from experience, but rather from adopting the proper attitude and being able to re-examine one's self. It's a skill/mindset that is not very common among most people.

I think it helps also to have broad experience learning many things before. I am very much a "multipotentialite," or renaissance man, if you will, and have spent countless hours teaching myself everything under the sun. As such, I've gotten very good at being a beginner and know how to go about learning things, forming and reforming habits, and accurately evaluating my progress, ability, and weak points. This kind of experience is something that a lot of people are lacking, as it's common for people to have gone through life just having been spoon-fed everything in school and college, never (or rarely) having ever taken it upon themselves to teach themselves something.


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## kakkattekoi

KPM said:


> In my opinion....yes!
> 
> First, why would so many instructors put out nice instructional DVDs for the general public if they didn't think people could learn from them?   Why would people put out youtube videos with detailed explanations if they didn't think people would learn from them?
> 
> Second, someone with a good foundation in any martial art should be able to learn something new from video. An absolute newbie that has done nothing martial arts related in the past is likely to have more trouble, but as long as he or she has any physical talent at all they should  be able to benefit.
> 
> Third, plenty of people have learned that have had limited exposure to the instructor.  Maybe they travel or the instructor travels and they received one on one instruction sporadically.  Now imagine you had video of those lessons that you could refer back to at will!  That is essentially what DVD instruction amounts to.
> 
> Granted, nothing beats hands on instruction!   At some point the person learning from DVD will have to seek out an instructor for some quality training.  But his or her feet should already be firmly on the path compared to someone with no previous exposure at all.
> 
> You are not going to learn advanced material very well from a DVD.  But most DVDs don't contain the system's advanced material anyway!
> 
> If you are already studying a specific martial art, then having instructional DVDs is great to help you remember things and review things multiple times, maybe pick up on things you missed in class, maybe see how a different instructor from your same system explains and does things a little differently, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in a specific martial art but don't have an instructor in your area, then DVD can help you decide if this is really what you want to learn prior to traveling some distance to the school you are interested in.  But you have to have a partner.  Martial arts do not work well when only practiced solo!   So grab a friend that is also interested and start working through the instruction on the DVD a little at a time.  And have fun!  That's the important part!



imo, yes
but need to have a basic understanding of the martial art or someone you can ask when in doubt


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