# Why do some karateka sensei wear hakima?



## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)




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## Buka (Sep 19, 2015)

Looks cool, maybe. Probably comfortable, too.


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## Danny T (Sep 19, 2015)

Personal preference... I suggest asking the ones who do wear them. All else is probably conjecture.
Is the spelling hakima or hakama?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

Its with an a not an I. My phone is a ditz on auto correct


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## donald1 (Sep 19, 2015)

Ivs never met any karate instructors who wear them could it possibly based on their style of karate?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

you can see Shotokan's founder (Funakoshi sensei), Mabuni Kenwa sensei (Shito-ryu founder), Tani sensei (Shukokai founder) and Dr Greg Story sensei (a key shito-ryu senior in Australia in the 1980s who has lived most of his life in Japan).


 

 

 



Here are other old Okinaiwa "Te" Masters in Hakama







Here is Japanese KarateKa Gogen Yamaguchi founder of GoJu Kai




So far my research has led me to knowledge that black gi pants is a direct nod to the previous use of hakama within almost all the karate traditions that use white Gi Jackets and Black Gi pants.

The hakama used to be required attire of many Japanese and Okinaiwan fighting arts. And all samurai were required to wear it.

In honor of poorer martial arts students it was moved to a dan level requirement. The rationale being you must still wear it but we will give you more time to acquire one.

Soon only dan ranks were wearing it. Some moved it to even higher status then 1 dan. Some traditions moved it above 5th.

Eventually it became seemingly inappropriate for Kyu (non dan ranked) to wear hakama within pretty much any karate tradition and it became an exclusive of dan ranks.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Personal preference... I suggest asking the ones who do wear them. All else is probably conjecture.
> Is the spelling hakima or hakama?
> 
> 
> ...



How is "hakima" going to come up as autocorrect…? It's a correction to… what? Hmm… 

More honestly, I'd ask about the term "karateka sensei"… it's either one or the other, really. Karateka is a karate practitioner… karate sensei is a karate instructor… it just doubles up on descriptors to have both, and that just doesn't work… 



TSDTexan said:


> you can see Shotokan's founder (Funakoshi sensei), Mabuni Kenwa sensei (Shito-ryu founder), Tani sensei (Shukokai founder) and Dr Greg Story sensei (a key shito-ryu senior in Australia in the 1980s who has lived most of his life in Japan).
> View attachment 19516 View attachment 19517 View attachment 19518 View attachment 19519
> 
> Here are other old Okinaiwa "Te" Masters in Hakama
> ...



So… to sum up, your question is why Japanese and Okinawan martial artists dress in Japanese clothing? 



TSDTexan said:


> So far my research has led me to knowledge that black gi pants is a direct nod to the previous use of hakama within almost all the karate traditions that use white Gi Jackets and Black Gi pants.



Except that black gi pants are fairly rare as well… in fact, outside of TKD, other Korean forms, and modern, eclectic Western variants, you basically don't see it at all… particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems… so… huh? 



TSDTexan said:


> The hakama used to be required attire of many Japanese and Okinaiwan fighting arts. And all samurai were required to wear it.



Er… no. Hakama were, simply, pants. That's it. Japanese pants. They were originally developed as a form of chaps for riding horses… but became simply standard, everyday, common wear. The fancier, and more expensive, were largely restricted to the upper classes, but that's more an economic reality rather than anything to do with "all samurai were required to wear (them)"… I hardly know where to start with that.

It's commonly taken within sword arts that it's rather improper (and rude) to demonstrate ken methods without hakama… but many ryu-ha don't necessarily practice in them… instead, wearing samue, or a "regular" gi… or even just normal street clothes (including business suits and jeans, depending on the person and the circumstances). But there is no historical basis of any kind of "required attire" outside of any single system/organisation applying their own uniform ideals and particular approach.



TSDTexan said:


> In honor of poorer martial arts students it was moved to a dan level requirement. The rationale being you must still wear it but we will give you more time to acquire one.



No, not really. There is a story within Aikido that Ueshiba originally wanted all students to wear hakama (he came up with a number of reasons, including attributing the seven virtues of bushido [which, historically, didn't actually exist either] to the seven pleats of the hakama, as well as being a symbolic link back to the warriors of old), but during WWII there were a number of shortages, one of which was cloth… and, as hakama take a fair bit to make, it was impractical to insist that everyone wore them… there simply wasn't enough cloth to go around. None of this has anything to do with the wealth or impoverishment of any particular student, of course.



TSDTexan said:


> Soon only dan ranks were wearing it. Some moved it to even higher status then 1 dan. Some traditions moved it above 5th.



Well, let's leave off for the minute that the idea of dan-i ranking is a very modern one as well, and simply point out that, if some traditions decide to get students of a certain rank to wear hakama, that's really up to them for whatever reasons they have. It should also be noted that many systems have you in hakama from day one… such as many weapon systems, and many of the more classical arts. I mean… if you do Iai, or Jodo, or Kyudo, you're wearing hakama from day one. Same with a number of kenjutsu systems… and some jujutsu ones (although they might only wear them for embu, and practice in a regular judo-gi instead on a day-to-day basis).



TSDTexan said:


> Eventually it became seemingly inappropriate for Kyu (non dan ranked) to wear hakama within pretty much any karate tradition and it became an exclusive of dan ranks.



Eh, not so much. Most karate systems don't have any usage of hakama at any (official) point in their ranking. Certain instructors might like the look… and wear them accordingly… the heads of various systems might do it to echo back to an older-value Japan… but really, it's a personal thing for each of them. In other words, there is no single reason any particular individual wears them with regards to karate instructors… it might be a look thing… it might be that they also train in weapon systems, and adopt them across… it might be that they think it implies something about their status within the school… they might not even know how to wear them properly… particularly Westerners who just wear them to look good (I've seen some highly amusing photos over the years…).


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 20, 2015)

hakama was the normal everyday wear of old japan. basically if your wearing just the dogi bottoms your in a type of underwear. so i would imagine that in any formal photo you would not want to be in your underwear and wear your hakama to be decent.  times have changed and no one wears hakama anymore thus it would seem the natural progression that sports would follow national trends and not wear one.  it is and was quite common for martial artists of main land Japan to wear hakama, Okinawa is an other story.  in Okinawa you will find many pictures of karate-ka wearing only fundoshi which really is underwear (ie loincloth) most martial arts in Japan are probably from a Samurai tradition and would seem normal to wear one where as Okinawan karate is not.  that being said i would assume any photos taken in Japan would be more apt to be in hakama and photos taken in Okinawa would probably not be in hakama.
the only Karate sensei i know of that wore hakama was Shoshin Nagamine. he was a recognized member of Diahonzan Chozen Ji Zen lineage and would be somewhat required or expected to wear one due to the tradition there.  he might of also wore one due to his age and status in the community but on that i am not sure.
as far as dan rankings only wearing one i would also make the assumption that because real hakama are very expensive that organisations would not require new students to purchase one, untill the student was sure he was going to stick around awhile.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> How is "hakima" going to come up as autocorrect…? It's a correction to… what? Hmm…
> 
> More honestly, I'd ask about the term "karateka sensei"… it's either one or the other, really. Karateka is a karate practitioner… karate sensei is a karate instructor… it just doubles up on descriptors to have both, and that just doesn't work…
> 
> ...



Thank you for your input Chris.

In answer to some of those points.
1. In hebrew the word Ha means "the".
So what is the word "ha" making a difinitive article about...
Q. What is Kima? A. An Astronomical perspective on the Talmudic passage in tractate Berachot 58
Not that it even should matter to you what my phone's autocorrect does.

As for Karataka Sensai.
Bite me. Seriously. Do I have to use a & sign or a comma.

Or can you employ common sense here?
Or must you be a grammar and syntax cop as well as an auto correct sheriff?
Sometimes you come off as a smug and pompous know it all jerk. This is coming from a smug and pompous jerk, so I speak from experience.

If you are aware and okey with that, carry on.
Please dont consider it an attack. It isn't meant as such although it could be taken that way.

Hopefully a muture person such as yourself can appreciate input. Or have a laugh.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> hakama was the normal everyday wear of old japan. basically if your wearing just the dogi bottoms your in a type of underwear. so i would imagine that in any formal photo you would not want to be in your underwear and wear your hakama to be decent.  times have changed and no one wears hakama anymore thus it would seem the natural progression that sports would follow national trends and not wear one.  it is and was quite common for martial artists of main land Japan to wear hakama, Okinawa is an other story.  in Okinawa you will find many pictures of karate-ka wearing only fundoshi which really is underwear (ie loincloth) most martial arts in Japan are probably from a Samurai tradition and would seem normal to wear one where as Okinawan karate is not.  that being said i would assume any photos taken in Japan would be more apt to be in hakama and photos taken in Okinawa would probably not be in hakama.
> the only Karate sensei i know of that wore hakama was Shoshin Nagamine. he was a recognized member of Diahonzan Chozen Ji Zen lineage and would be somewhat required or expected to wear one due to the tradition there.  he might of also wore one due to his age and status in the community but on that i am not sure.
> as far as dan rankings only wearing one i would also make the assumption that because real hakama are very expensive that organisations would not require new students to purchase one, untill the student was sure he was going to stick around awhile.



I found a statement that supports your loin cloth...

_In Okinawa, karate practitioners wore ''Han Hakama" (short pants above the knees) until the beginning of the Showa Era, which began in 1926, for karate training. The top was usually bare. 
As Karate gradually spread to the other prefectures, Judo wear was copied until the use of present day Karate wear, which has become popular. Judo begins with a grappling position. Therefore, the length of the top, outer sleeves, mouth of the sleeves, belt, length of the hakama (pants), etc. were decided in detail. It is design so be able to grab easier. For ex ample, the belt is use in a throwing technique, and is also wrapped around the wrist for katame waza. If Judo had different wear, I believe those techniques would have been completely different. In Karate, being topless does not have any adverse effects on technique. The bottoms may be necessary, but the tops are not used. The bottoms are best as Han Hakama (short pants). In Karate, the main purpose of wearing the top is to keep sweat from flying all over during training or competition. A shortcoming to wearing a top is that it slows the movement of strikes and blocks. It especially becomes a hindrance when using the "ukeharai" (block). training the use of both arms. the feeling at the moment of the "uke" or to evade a bIow, etc. For those who prefer to wear a top, a haIf-sleeve top (above the elbows) is most suited. Karate wear of pre-World War II were all half-sleeves. 
Some may feel that being bare-chested is rude to others. But I ask you how about the Japanese national games such as Sumo, or wrestling and boxing of other countries? I believe that muscles developed through karate training should be shown. Developed muscles of Sumo, wrestling, boxing. weight lifting, etc. have attracted many and have resulted in its spread and development. 
Recently, some have extended the sleeves of the Karate tops down to the wrist. They punch through the air making snapping sounds are ecstatic with themselves. By wearing short pants and training bare-chested, the movements become better and the skin gets stronger. It is also more economical, easier to carry and easier to wash. During major Judo competitions, the matches are halted because the belts come untied or the wear becomes disarranged. There is already talk of improving the Judo wear. For Karate, after sufficient probing, there is a need to have Karate wear that is unique to Karate._

-Miyazato Eiichi - Okinawa Den Goju Ryu Karate-do, 1978


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

A good article from a drjj guy.
Why do Yudansha wear hakama?


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Thank you for your input Chris.
> 
> In answer to some of those points.
> 1. In hebrew the word Ha means "the".
> ...



Okay, fair enough.



TSDTexan said:


> As for Karataka Sensai.
> Bite me. Seriously. Do I have to use a & sign or a comma.
> 
> Or can you employ common sense here?
> ...



Settle, mate. You've missed the point that the mistake shows… such a basic error would not be made by anyone who genuinely had some familiarity with the terms, culture, and language of karate practitioners. I'm not being a "syntax cop"… I'm highlighting that you're showing that your knowledge is rather below where you think it is.



TSDTexan said:


> A good article from a drjj guy.
> Why do Yudansha wear hakama?



Okay… but what does that have to do with karateka wearing hakama?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay… but what does that have to do with karateka wearing hakama?



It doesn't.
This nitpickery.... eyeroll.

I brought the link up because someone (besides yourself) might find it enlightening.

There may be a number of related factoids that could very well relate to a karateka wearing hakama in the link.

Another thing...
The idea of Kyu/Dan ranks within Karate is something very Japanese.  Were it not for Dai Nippon Butoku Kai and Dr. Kano... okinawan karate wouldn't have them.

What does that have to do with guys who practice in loincloths.. going to a judogi and full on hakama?

Perhaps a great deal.

As for your allegation, about my not genuinely not having familiarity with terms, culture langauge of karate etc.

I am going to use a technical term from a buddy in NSW since your an awesome aussie you can translate it for me.
"Piss off, Mate"

"Good Day, Sir"


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## Chris Parker (Sep 20, 2015)

Oh dear lord… you started a thread on karateka wearing hakama, and are posting articles on other arts instead… and if it wasn't for Kano (and the game of Go) there likely wouldn't be any dan or kyu ranks in martial arts at all… but none of this has much to do with anything. Superficial connections are random associations are not actual research or information… post hoc ergo propter hoc is not a guide for how to think.


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## jks9199 (Sep 20, 2015)

Wow...  Seems like some nerves are getting frayed a bit.

Perhaps we can all remember that we lose a lot of nuance in textual communication.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Wow...  Seems like some nerves are getting frayed a bit.
> 
> Perhaps we can all remember that we lose a lot of nuance in textual communication.



Perhaps


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 20, 2015)

as you can see, pictures often required formal wear. while you only see the top in the pictures of Kanbun and Kanei Uechi  we can assume there was hakama to go with the kimono.i find the picture of master Kyan interesting.  traditional Japanese wear with what looks like a european over coat. also the student on the left has an interesting belt.  the picture of Miyagi sensei shows the common practice of the teacher wearing formal wear and the students in practice attire.   we should remember that these pictures where from a period in time where a photograph was a big deal. it would be like posing for a professional painter for a portrait rather than todays instant  selfies.  the subjects new these photographs were going to be around and remembered for a long time. like i said you wouldnt want to be remembered by the generations to come, standing around in your underwear.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> View attachment 19524 View attachment 19525 View attachment 19526 View attachment 19527 View attachment 19528 View attachment 19529
> as you can see, pictures often required formal wear. while you only see the top in the pictures of Kanbun and Kanei Uechi  we can assume there was hakama to go with the kimono.i find the picture of master Kyan interesting.  traditional Japanese wear with what looks like a european over coat. also the student on the left has an interesting belt.  the picture of Miyagi sensei shows the common practice of the teacher wearing formal wear and the students in practice attire.   we should remember that these pictures where from a period in time where a photograph was a big deal. it would be like posing for a professional painter for a portrait rather than todays instant  selfies.  the subjects new these photographs were going to be around and remembered for a long time. like i said you wouldnt want to be remembered by the generations to come, standing around in your underwear.



Gi pants and sash... a nod to Ch'uan *ahem* Kenpo roots of Tang Hand aka Tou-Te. Which after 1935 came to be called Empty Hand for the same arts in Japan.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> View attachment 19524 View attachment 19525 View attachment 19526 View attachment 19527 View attachment 19528 View attachment 19529
> as you can see, pictures often required formal wear. while you only see the top in the pictures of Kanbun and Kanei Uechi  we can assume there was hakama to go with the kimono.i find the picture of master Kyan interesting.  traditional Japanese wear with what looks like a european over coat. also the student on the left has an interesting belt.  the picture of Miyagi sensei shows the common practice of the teacher wearing formal wear and the students in practice attire.   we should remember that these pictures where from a period in time where a photograph was a big deal. it would be like posing for a professional painter for a portrait rather than todays instant  selfies.  the subjects new these photographs were going to be around and remembered for a long time. like i said you wouldnt want to be remembered by the generations to come, standing around in your underwear.



As found in an article on A "jiu jutsu" website.
It supports your formal attire position.
There are some who say that the keigogi or judogi were much like long john under garments. It makes sense in that respect. Layering is a natural response to cold climate in the fall winter and spring.

_Hakama are the skirt-like pleated pants worn by higher ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial arts schools. They are worn by black belts and sometimes brown belts in Aikido and in some more traditional Jiu-jitsu schools. This seemingly innocuous piece of clothing is an identifiable topic in the ongoing debate of tradition vs. practicality.

The hakama were originally worn by the Samurai. The baggy, flowing material served to protect their legs while riding, but it is also generally accepted that they had the side benefit of disguising their stance and footwork from their opponents. 

The hakama also have symbolic importance, though I imagine that the significance of the pleats was added after the fact and not when the garment was originally conceived. The five front pleats are said to represent Confucian virtues valued by the Samurai:

Jin – Love and Sympathy
Gi – Truth and Justice
Rei – Courtesy
Chi – Wisdom
Shin – Faith

Nowadays, the dojos that still use hakama generally introduced when a student earns their black belt and/or becomes an instructor. And while I can appreciate their symbolism, I find that hakama interfere with instruction, for the some of the same reasons the Samurai wore them. 

The pants hide the instructor’s hip and leg movements often making it difficult for students to see the subtleties of their technique. Instructors often have to pull their hakama back so students can see. 


In my dojo, instructors wear black pants to represent the hakama. I feel this is sufficient in that it pays homage to the symbolic representation without impeding my teaching. That being said, my old Karate sensei would wear his hakama for belt gradings and important formal events. I wouldn’t mind introducing the hakama in this capacity. They really convey an air of authority, highlighting the importance of the event.

The Hakama Debate: Tradition vs. Practicality | Pacific Wave Jiu-jitsu_


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## donald1 (Sep 20, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> if it wasn't for Kano (and the game of Go) there likely wouldn't be any dan or kyu ranks in martial arts at all…



What do you mean by that?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Dr. Kano took it from Go.
Read it here.
Tang Soo Do World
After reforming his Kodakan Judo, He was asked by  Dai NipponButoku Kai to chair a commitee to explore reforms in other arts.

The commitee drew up proposed documents of reforms.
And a number of arts or systems modernized in accordance with Dai Nippon Butoku Kai's new Kyu/Dan rank system.

Karate had to accept them as a requirement to join the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai... 

The  Dai Nippon Butoku Kai operates subordinate to the Ministry of Education.

In his professional life, Kano was an educator. Important postings included serving as director of primary education for the Ministry of Education (文部省 _Monbushō_) from 1898 to 1901, and as president of Tokyo Higher Normal School from 1901 until 1920. 

He played a key role in making judo and kendo part of the Japanese public school programs of the 1910s.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2015)

Still looks cool. 

I don't care the era, it factors. You know how us chop-sockey guys are.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Buka said:


> Still looks cool.
> 
> I don't care the era, it factors. You know how us chop-sockey guys are.



Ya..  I am thinking  or daydreaming about requiring hakama for all non leg involved training for my students.


"I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so" -The Vapors


Rather than the kimono... I prefer robes such as this one.
Black robe white cuffs over white hakama and gi shorts, with black Geta clogs. 
And maybe a Kasa hat (non conical and maybe black lacquered bamboo) on days forcasted with rain or no cloud cover.

See 3:09 for the Robe I also like.








 


Kasa hat.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 20, 2015)

donald1 said:


> What do you mean by that?



The dan ranking system was originally used by players of the game _*Go*_, similarly to how chess players are ranked in Western culture. Kano took the ranking system and applied it to his students.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Skull and cross bones mode... I like.
Duckface model... not so much.



 Then there is breast cancer awareness karateka mode.




I think he is overcompensating, but I will let someone else tell him.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

Out of work mma fighter side lines as model. I like everything but the herringbone print.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 21, 2015)

donald1 said:


> What do you mean by that?



This is something that you should read.
Its very on topic.
The Judo Rank System - Belts

After that...


 Here is Dr.Kano in Hakama and Haori.

Kano based his Dan and Kyu in Japanese from the game of Go.

Go, known in Chinese as Weiqi and in Korean as Baduk, is an ancient board game for two players that is noted for being rich in strategy despite its simple rules.

In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using Gup or Kyu and Dan grades, a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts due to Kano.

*Go Ranks*

*Rank Type* *Range* *Stage*
Double-digit kyu 30-20k Beginner
Double-digit kyu 19-10k Casual Player
Single-digit kyu 9-1k  Intermediate/Club Player
Amateur dan 1-7d (where 8d is special title) Expert Player
Professional dan 1-9p (where 10p is special title) Professionals
Note the Dan Ranks range from 1-9 with 10th being a special title similar to most martial arts ranking systems.

Kano's original use of the Kyu/Dan was eventually used by Funokoshi (Shotokan's founder) and made its way to Korea via the Koreans that trained in Shotokan and Judo (Yudo in Korean).

In KMAs
The Gup system was simply a reversal of the Kyu ranking. Starting at 10th Gup you progressed by counting down as you reach Dan you climbed back up the numbers.



** *Kano's system was 1st to 4th Dan as testable ranks (or even instant promotion due to specific tournament rules) but with 5th or above being honorary Dans only.

The following ranks could not be earned. The could only be recognized or bestowed. Futhermore Kano said ranks higher then 10th exist.

However the Kodakan has only recognized 15 individuals as being 10th Dan in its history.

* 5th degree godan
6th degree rokudan
7th degree shichidan
8th degree hachidan
9th degree kudan
10th degree judan*

Originally, Menkyo (Korean this would be Meon Ho) a form of certificate(s) was used before the use of belts came into play.

It distinguished one's place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about the use of belt ranking.

Typically classical schools (koryū) usually use the _menkyo_ system while schools which base their practice on _budō forms_ ("path, or way") typically use the Kyu/Dan.
This is not always the case but it usually is.

Schools in Japan usually were classified either as koryū or Gendai budō, meaning "modern martial way", which are modern martial arts that were established after the Meji Restoration (1866-1869).

Koryū are the opposite: ancient martial arts established before the Meiji Restoration (sword arts, archery and battle field arts for example).


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 21, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Ya..  I am thinking  or daydreaming about requiring hakama for all non leg involved training for my students.



What do you think adopting such a requirement would add to their training?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 21, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> What do you think adopting such a requirement would add to their training?



A sense of historical fashion.

Esprit De Corp.

Why did the US Army Green Beret of Ft Benning go with that head gear?

*To make them different, that they will become the tribe.
And have a common uniqueness that bonds.*

Which is why I am researching why Okinaiwan and Japanese KarateKa wore the garment and why some still do.
The KMA of Gumdo wears it. Even the Korean National team.

Gumdo is a clear derivative of Kendo.

Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?


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## Grenadier (Sep 21, 2015)

Admin's note:

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this discussion civil, and on-topic.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 21, 2015)

Grenadier said:


> Admin's note:
> 
> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
> 
> Please keep this discussion civil, and on-topic.




Acknowledged.


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## Flatfish (Sep 21, 2015)

Historical fashion well and good but if people start doing TKD in loin cloths I'm quitting....


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Why did the US Army Green Beret of Ft Benning go with that head gear?


Because if they didn't wear a green beret, it would make the name sound really weird.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 21, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> A sense of historical fashion.
> 
> Esprit De Corp.



Because wearing a Gi doesn't already label them as a MA practitioner?



TSDTexan said:


> Why did the US Army Green Beret of Ft Benning go with that head gear?
> 
> *To make them different, that they will become the tribe.
> And have a common uniqueness that bonds.*



To identify them as people who had completed a specific training regime. Pretty much exactly that a Gi and rank belt does.



TSDTexan said:


> Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?



So what does Japanese clothing have to do with Korean martial arts?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 21, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because wearing a Gi doesn't already label them as a MA practitioner?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Re point one.
This isn't about simply identification as a MA. But about something else.

Re point two.
You missed the point. The green beret is the headgear that separates one army grunt from another. As well as unit patch and jump wings... but you missed the point. 

All karate derived styles pretty much have dobok/gi & dee/obi in common. We dont use school patches or lettering on our doboks. I may choose formal attire for my students.


Re: pt.3

Again the question I raise wasn't answered in your question.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 21, 2015)

Flatfish said:


> Historical fashion well and good but if people start doing TKD in loin cloths I'm quitting....



How about jockstrap TKD practice?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Except that black gi pants are fairly rare as well… in fact, outside of TKD, other Korean forms, and modern, eclectic Western variants, you basically don't see it at all… particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems… so… huh?













Milos Stanic _4.dan _promotes old okinawan empty hand and weapon traditions (_shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo_)

He led his Dojo in his countries national team in the ITKF.
He is very traditional. There is nothing eclectic in his arts.

He kind of upsets the "particularly in Japanese and Okinawan systems... no black gi pants" position that you are holding.

Now there is a phrase found in Okinawa:
Like brother and sister, Karate and Kubodo always together.

I bring this up because _shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo_ are not eclectic or western or modern... and yet

You will also see (below) a native okinaiwan wearing a black gi top and white gi pants while working with sai.


In 2002, Uechi-ryu published an article that he wrote about Kabudo weapons. This one about the Sai.
Sai: Okinawa Kobudo | Uechi-ryu Martial Arts

Matayoshi Shinko... interesting fellow and important fellow.  He was a karateka, a kobudoka and went to China to learn even more martial arts.
Was asked to perform Kabudo for Prince Hirohito.

Too bad he cant make his mind up about picking a color gi to wear. It totally messes with "uniformly uniform" image that we sometimes see and perhaps expect to see.

There is debate whether this is him or his son in the photo.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> As found in an article on A "jiu jutsu" website.
> It supports your formal attire position.
> There are some who say that the keigogi or judogi were much like long john under garments. It makes sense in that respect. Layering is a natural response to cold climate in the fall winter and spring.
> 
> ...



I always take any article on a site from a modern, Western "jiu-jitsu" group who can't name the Japanese traditions they claim to be descendant from with regards to anything historical with a huge slab of salt… and this is no different. There are a few issues with the article, namely the claim that "Hakama are… worn by high ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial art schools"… uh, no. In most classical schools that wear them, rank is nothing to do with it at all. You either wear them as part of the standard uniform (weaponry schools, typically), or wear them for embu (many jujutsu systems, some weaponry arts)… all of which is regardless of rank. There are also issues with the "reasons the Samurai wore them" stated. As a result, what they do in their Western system is really no bearing on anything to do with Japanese (or Okinawan) arts at all.

That said, I will caution against copying entire articles from websites, as you're risking running afoul of the "fair use" clause of the TOS here. 



donald1 said:


> What do you mean by that?



Others have already stated, but simply, Kano created the idea of Kyu and Dan ranking, which he took from the game of Go. All arts that use this ranking trace their usage to Judo, and Kano's implication of it.



TSDTexan said:


> This is something that you should read.
> Its very on topic.
> The Judo Rank System - Belts



On topic for the off-topic question of the origin of Dan ranking, but… not so much for the thread. Especially when the question had been answered a few times already. That said, it's a better article from a better source.



TSDTexan said:


> After that...
> View attachment 19540 Here is Dr.Kano in Hakama and Haori.
> 
> Kano based his Dan and Kyu in Japanese from the game of Go.
> ...



So… you linked the article… but still needed to put all this down? I get that you want to be seen as knowledgable, but this is unnecessary… and I'm not sure what the references to Korean arts has to do with anything… 



TSDTexan said:


> Originally, Menkyo (Korean this would be Meon Ho) a form of certificate(s) was used before the use of belts came into play.
> 
> It distinguished one's place in a school or art long before anyone ever thought about the use of belt ranking.
> 
> ...



Hmm… I don't want to take this much further off topic, but this is not really correct on a number of levels… for the record.



TSDTexan said:


> A sense of historical fashion.



Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?



TSDTexan said:


> Which is why I am researching why Okinaiwan and Japanese KarateKa wore the garment and why some still do.



Because it's the clothing of the culture… and because they choose to. It's really not much more complex than that.



TSDTexan said:


> The KMA of Gumdo wears it. Even the Korean National team.
> 
> Gumdo is a clear derivative of Kendo.



I invite you to go back to my first post here and read my comments on sword arts… and invite you to realise that what Kumdo does is absolutely nothing to do with what a karate school does.



TSDTexan said:


> Why should I teach second hand okinaiwan forms, and award Japanese inspired ranks derived from Japanese Karate and Judo and ignore the rest of a rich fullness of a legacy and heritage?



Because you teach a Korean art? Simply put, if you're wanting to be like the Japanese arts, do a Japanese art. Otherwise, it's like a non-English country wearing bowler hats when they play cricket… as they're very English… and there's therefore a cultural heritage… despite there being little connection.



TSDTexan said:


> All karate derived styles pretty much have dobok/gi & dee/obi in common. We dont use school patches or lettering on our doboks. I may choose formal attire for my students.



If you mean that you can choose what you want your students to wear in your school, you're absolutely right. Of course, you don't need any reason other than "I like this look". 



TSDTexan said:


> View attachment 19541
> View attachment 19542
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah… I said it was fairly rare… and that you basically didn't see it at all. And you've found one (1) guy who wears black pants… but the rest of his school doesn't. So it's his personal choice, as head instructor of his school… which means nothing when you were discussing "all the karate systems that wear black pants with their gi". As a result, no, Milos doesn't "upset… the position".



TSDTexan said:


> Now there is a phrase found in Okinawa:
> Like brother and sister, Karate and Kubodo always together.
> 
> I bring this up because _shorin ryu karate & matayoshi kobudo_ are not eclectic or western or modern... and yet



I'm sorry, are you trying to educate me on such things here?



TSDTexan said:


> You will also see (below) a native okinaiwan wearing a black gi top and white gi pants while working with sai.
> 
> 
> In 2002, Uechi-ryu published an article that he wrote about Kabudo weapons. This one about the Sai.
> Sai: Okinawa Kobudo | Uechi-ryu Martial Arts



And, it can't be helped but noticed, other than a profile shot of Milos at the bottom, all shots from the article illustrating it (save the one you put in your post) show white pants with white tops… hmm… 



TSDTexan said:


> Matayoshi Shinko... interesting fellow and important fellow.  He was a karateka, a kobudoka and went to China to learn even more martial arts.
> Was asked to perform Kabudo for Prince Hirohito.
> 
> Too bad he cant make his mind up about picking a color gi to wear. It totally messes with "uniformly uniform" image that we sometimes see and perhaps expect to see.
> ...



I'm pretty well aware of who Matayoshi Sensei was… your comments about "too bad… it totally messes…" are rather misplaced. In fact, dark tops with light pants are far more common (particularly in Okinawan Kobudo arts) than your black pants approach… and, it also must be noted, that it's not uncommon for head instructors to choose a slightly different uniform for themselves to the rest of the school… which brings it all back to personal choice as the reason for any particular uniform in the first place.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I always take any article on a site from a modern, Western "jiu-jitsu" group who can't name the Japanese traditions they claim to be descendant from with regards to anything historical with a huge slab of salt… and this is no different. There are a few issues with the article, namely the claim that "Hakama are… worn by high ranking belts (usually instructors) in more traditional Japanese martial art schools"… uh, no. In most classical schools that wear them, rank is nothing to do with it at all. You either wear them as part of the standard uniform (weaponry schools, typically), or wear them for embu (many jujutsu systems, some weaponry arts)… all of which is regardless of rank. There are also issues with the "reasons the Samurai wore them" stated. As a result, what they do in their Western system is really no bearing on anything to do with Japanese (or Okinawan) arts at all.
> 
> Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?
> 
> ...



The dobok/gi and dee/obi (used to represent rank) is not Korean but entirely Japanese. The Majority of our forms were Japanese in the 40, 50, 60s. were Japanese.

Later on Korean Karate became significantly more its own thing. New forms to distance from the old and a denial of where Itosu's pinan/heinan was learned from.

The Moo Duk Kwan states Hwang Kee brought them back from Manchuria. .. which could only have happened if He learned from a Japanese or Oki fellow.

You have to admit the founder of the Ji Do Kwon studied directly under G. Funikoshi and was a black belt in the art of shotokan karate.

While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.

The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publically.

Who are you to say that Hakama are not part of my art's history?
Are you a KMA historian with specialization in uniforms of Koreans?
While you are knowledgeable in your area of expertise, a statement posed as a question:
_Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?_
that you make is conjecture and opinion.
_
Historical fashion that probably is not part of your (Korean arts) history? _

Would be less of a implicitly dogmatic question and more accurate way to phrase that.

All I have to do is find a picture of Korean KarateKa or related arts in the Dojang or fields teaching students in such attire to knock the statement down.

It would be more helpful to answer the OP.
Why do some KarateKa wear Hakama?

In my research I have found KarateKa in Okinaiwa  prior to 1958 wearing hakama which, which Is the year some okinaiwans brought Japanese reforms to Karate within a few styles... such as dan / kyu rank.

This suggests that the hakama is not related to Kyu/Dan ranking in Okiainwa at that time or prior.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm aware of the heritage of Korean arts (been through more than a few discussions of rather unlikely claims over the years), however what you're training in is identified as a Korean art, grown separate as you note. Again, if you're interested in a Japanese art, a Japanese identity, a Japanese cultural approach, and a Japanese look… why not train in an actual Japanese art? Or, if you'd rather continue to train and teach your Korean art, why not embrace what that means?


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm aware of the heritage of Korean arts (been through more than a few discussions of rather unlikely claims over the years), however what you're training in is identified as a Korean art, grown separate as you note. Again, if you're interested in a Japanese art, a Japanese identity, a Japanese cultural approach, and a Japanese look… why not train in an actual Japanese art? Or, if you'd rather continue to train and teach your Korean art, why not embrace what that means?




Or nor have a false dichotomy.
Nothing stops a fellow from doing both.

I started in a Shotokan School... and have taken private instruction in it for a very long time under SKA instruction.

As mentioned on other threads I did two separate 9 month intros into Aikido. Neither led to a dan ranking.

But your point is an either or.

Learn calculus or algebra
Teach calculus or algebra

Distinction has a value but I disagree with the dichotomy.
Arts can speak and inform each other and my Shotokan training makes my TSD art better.

I have come to a place of And/Or.
Learn calculus and/or algebra.

The only new curriculum ahead of me in TSD is the 150 step/movement Yang Taichi form. A whole other Art within my Art. I am not ready to do Tai Chi as my full on studies.

The rest of the tsd curriculum is deepening in what I already have in my head. It is seeking to perfect rather than seeking to learn.

My Master did not teach a pure TSD art all by itself. He had us doing shikko knee walking up and down the dojo for hours. And kicking and attacking from a sitting position.

These things... I do as well.
Makiwara striking.
Stone hammer conditioning.
These things my students know because of my shotokon studies, and other styles of Karate training.

However what Katas that I know apart from Hwang Kee's TSD as it was taught to american G.I.s are not taught to my students.

Thus I preserve the curriculum of my traditional art of tsd.
And hand it intact to the next generation. 

You should read the article "why I stopped practing my style and you should too" by Jesse Enkamp.

Why I Stopped Practicing My Karate Style. (Maybe YOU Should Too?) | KARATE by Jesse

Karate is like the whole of a carrot cake.

TSD is a part of that cake, but only a small slice.
Shotokan another small slice.

At this point..  I am now looking far back to inform my own art's direction. I accept the whole carrot cake as my style, just like Jesse.

Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.

I am sure you run into DRAJJ-Hapkido arguments alot.


----------



## pgsmith (Sep 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.



   That's perfectly fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if you attempt to embrace Japanese traditions and Japanese traditional clothing within your art, you run the risk of becoming just another ridiculous Japanese wannabe since you obviously don't have the knowledge or background that is needed to go with the traditions.

  Don't try to make it into something it isn't just because you think it would be 'cool'.

  Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> That's perfectly fine, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if you attempt to embrace Japanese traditions and Japanese traditional clothing within your art, you run the risk of becoming just another ridiculous Japanese wannabe since you obviously don't have the knowledge or background that is needed to go with the traditions.
> 
> Don't try to make it into something it isn't just because you think it would be 'cool'.
> 
> Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them.



Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.


----------



## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.


You asked the question received an answer and then told the folks that answered they are wrong.  You seem to be looking more for approval to wear it because you think it's cool.  Fine wear what you want but just know you don't actually rate it


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> You asked the question received an answer and then told the folks that answered they are wrong.  You seem to be looking more for approval to wear it because you think it's cool.  Fine wear what you want but just know you don't actually rate it



Thank you for your input there.
I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and the investment of the greater part of my life and my status within my* own *school and within my lineage.
It means a lot to me. (Warm friendly smile)

Thank you for your evaluation.
A garment that has no ranking value that is more formal ware then anything else. And I don't "rate" wearing it accordingly.

You realize it is kind of is like telling someone...Hey you're not Scotish you cant wear a kilt and Tux jacket to the ceremonies.  Slacks only for you pal.

Or hey you're not German so no lederhosen for you this October.

I guess I shouldn't be using chopsticks, even though I have been using them since I was six. After all I am a westerner.
I am not ethnically asian.

Thank you. You are far wiser than I am. (Warm friendly smile)
I will spend some time thinking about your evaluation.
And what I will wear.

Back to the main idea...

Really would appreciate it if you had some input on why karate people would wear it actually wear it in a classroom, (as a belt already significantly indicates rank.).

That would actually be helpful.

When Chris speaks on KMA and tries to sound like an authority on that specific issue it doesn't carry the same weight as him speaking on Japanese arts that are his area of expertise and experience.

I have nothing more to say about Chris speaking on KMAs.

What I am looking for are answers to questions. This is a place of conversation. Its perfectly reasonable to have a different opinion in a conversation.


----------



## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Thank you for your input there.
> I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and my status within my* own *school and within my lineage.
> It means a lot to me.
> 
> ...





Correct you don't rate to wear it.  If you want to add fancy Japanese pants to your Korean school go for it. Just know you don't rate it and don't make up nonsense fake history or find the 1 example that is far from the norm to justify it to your students.  Tell them we are going to wear these  cause they look cool

Your question was already answered by Chris but you didn't like his answers because well it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 23, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Correct you don't rate to wear it.  If you want to add fancy Japanese pants to your Korean school go for it. Just know you don't rate it and don't make up nonsense fake history or find the 1 example that is far from the norm to justify it to your students.  Tell them we are going to wear these  cause they look cool
> 
> Your question was already answered by Chris but you didn't like his answers because well it wasn't the answer you wanted to hear.



Thank you.


----------



## Hyoho (Sep 24, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I think he is overcompensating, but I will let someone else tell him.
> View attachment 19536


 This photo is of Sekiguchi Komei Sensei. 21st head of the Yamauchi line of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. The reason they use what seem to be overly large weapons is because before the Meiji era there was no standardization of size. originally battle sword were bigger and longer and heavier and..... that's what Yamauchi Ha now use. back in 2007 Sekiguchi sensei was appointed as head of Nihon kobudo Kyokai. He does as we all do dress like that for embu. Because he uses a shinken (live blade) to do kobudo. The majority of the photographs shown of hakama are people in formal dress. not actually practicing. A hakama is a "skirt" worn over a kimono. The split style is a Joba(Horseback) Hakama. In Japan we don't wear 'anything' underneath it. It is from Japan not from Okinawa. Japanese clothing of this type is a uniform not fashion statement. We wear it like morning suit so it's worn at weddings. We wear jeans and a polo shirt as a casual uniform. It is not a sign of high rank or superiority unless someone wish to add that little gem to their practice like stripey gold and red belts and badges. The whole idea is to play down ones community activity of budo and excel in what we show in practice. So.... we all wear the same


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 24, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> This photo is of Sekiguchi Komei Sensei. 21st head of the Yamauchi line of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu. The reason they use what seem to be overly large weapons is because before the Meiji era there was no standardization of size. originally battle sword were bigger and longer and heavier and..... that's what Yamauchi Ha now use. back in 2007 Sekiguchi sensei was appointed as head of Nihon kobudo Kyokai. He does as we all do dress like that for embu. Because he uses a shinken (live blade) to do kobudo. The majority of the photographs shown of hakama are people in formal dress. not actually practicing. A hakama is a "skirt" worn over a kimono. The split style is a Joba(Horseback) Hakama. In Japan we don't wear 'anything' underneath it. It is from Japan not from Okinawa. Japanese clothing of this type is a uniform not fashion statement. We wear it like morning suit so it's worn at weddings. We wear jeans and a polo shirt as a casual uniform. It is not a sign of high rank or superiority unless someone wish to add that little gem to their practice like stripey gold and red belts and badges. The whole idea is to play down ones community activity of budo and excel in what we show in practice. So.... we all wear the same



This is a wonderful response. Sincere appreciation to you for it.

So is this a daikatana or an ōdachi?

I don't know how to guage the size, to tell if it is three shaku or longer.
As I understand it most ōdachi have been cut down due to laws  regarding length in the years 1617, 1626, 1645.

Most were too large to draw from the waist so the were eaither carried upon the back or a servant carried it for a samurai.

But there is a notable exception:
And you mentioning his Ryu is the thing that helped me remember.

The Kōden Enshin-ryu taught by Fumon Tanaka use a special drawing technique for shorter Ōdachi allowing it to be worn upon the waist.

It is called Kōden Iai within the art.

Back to sensai... an amazing sword at any rate.

The last of them seemed to have been made as offerings to shinto shrines. If it is a Nodachi then it is very rare indeed.

In Scotland, where my family is partly from we dont wear "anything" below the garment "skirt" either. Tradition calls them Kilts. Typically coverage these days is between about the navel to about the knee.. some folks prefer mid knee others above the knee cap.


----------



## Hyoho (Sep 24, 2015)

Last time I saw Komei Sensei he was using sanjaku. A really nice thick meaty blade. he's only a little guy so I guess it looks bigger Tanaka San got help from Otsuyama San who use to belong to the Choken Battojutsu Kageryu. He left some years ago to try and form a breakaway group but still practices on his own.

Komei Sensei is a really nice guy. I could listen to him for hours. Last time we met we were talking about seiza as a method just to train and cut with the hips. He was telling me how his mentors used to tell him that sitting in seiza was for drinking tea and that's how it all should be. But if, if ever one was attacked. one should be able to draw and cut from that position.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 24, 2015)

I gotta say, it's kinda frustrating the way you edit your posts after someone has already answered it… for the record, your original post (that I was responding to) was as follows:



TSDTexan said:


> The dobok/gi and dee/obi (used to represent rank) is not Korean but entirely Japanese. The Majority of our forms were Japanese in the 40, 50, 60s. were Japanese.
> 
> Later on Korean Karate became significantly more its own thing. New forms to distance from the old and a denial of where Itosu's pinan/heinan was learned from.
> 
> ...



After I responded, you added the following:



TSDTexan said:


> While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.
> 
> The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publically.
> 
> ...



So let's look at that… 



TSDTexan said:


> While stuff was added to Hongsoodo and Tangsoodo to make it a KMA please don't pretend it happened apart from Japanese art sources.
> 
> The TKD art and the TSD art that we see today, would not exist if Okinawa had not sent Todi to Japan to be taught publicly.



Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea.



TSDTexan said:


> Who are you to say that Hakama are not part of my art's history?



Dude… you've been down this path with me before… are you sure you want to try it again?



TSDTexan said:


> Are you a KMA historian with specialization in uniforms of Koreans?



No… just educated.



TSDTexan said:


> While you are knowledgeable in your area of expertise, a statement posed as a question:
> _Historical fashion that's not part of your (Korean arts) history?_
> that you make is conjecture and opinion.



No, it's where I question exactly what "historical fashion" you're trying to invoke.
_


TSDTexan said:



			Historical fashion that probably is not part of your (Korean arts) history?
		
Click to expand...

_


TSDTexan said:


> Would be less of a implicitly dogmatic question and more accurate way to phrase that.



And yet, not something I would have said… mainly as it implies that there maybe, possibly was a traditional Japanese (and uniquely Japanese) piece of apparel in the histories of the Korean arts… which there wasn't.



TSDTexan said:


> All I have to do is find a picture of Korean KarateKa or related arts in the Dojang or fields teaching students in such attire to knock the statement down.



No, you'd have to find evidence of the hakama as a part of Korean apparel, and part of the historical costume of Korean martial arts. The only Korean art that I've seen use hakama is Gumdo… basically Kendo… and descendent arts (such as Haidong Gumdo)… none of whom claim that the hakama is a Korean form of dress.



TSDTexan said:


> It would be more helpful to answer the OP.
> Why do some KarateKa wear Hakama?



Er… haven't we answered that, like, many, many times now? Already? Honestly, I have no idea where you're going with much of your posts… 



TSDTexan said:


> In my research I have found KarateKa in Okinaiwa  prior to 1958 wearing hakama which, which Is the year some okinaiwans brought Japanese reforms to Karate within a few styles... such as dan / kyu rank.



Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point… 



TSDTexan said:


> This suggests that the hakama is not related to Kyu/Dan ranking in Okiainwa at that time or prior.



Er… yeah? You do realise that the only person insisting that it's anything to do with ranking at all is, well, you, yeah? Sure, certain arts or organisations might apply it that way… but there's nothing intrinsic about hakama that is related to rank at all… as we've said, like, many, many time now… already.

Okay, onto the next post… 



TSDTexan said:


> Or nor have a false dichotomy.
> Nothing stops a fellow from doing both.



Er… huh? Tex, what we're saying is that, if you're a Korean art, be a Korean art… if you're a Korean art pretending to be a Japanese art because you like the cool dresses worn, but not really even in the Japanese versions of your Korean art in the main, then that doesn't really make sense… 



TSDTexan said:


> I started in a Shotokan School... and have taken private instruction in it for a very long time under SKA instruction.



Er… okay. Thing is, you're not talking about adding hakama to your Shotokan school (you don't have one)… you're talking about adding it to your Korean system… which is just… odd.

Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign… 



TSDTexan said:


> As mentioned on other threads I did two separate 9 month intros into Aikido. Neither led to a dan ranking.



So… what? You've taken a tiny bit of exposure to a Japanese art that does employ hakama, but never got anywhere near wearing it yourself, and that art is completely and totally unrelated to your Korean art, so… what?



TSDTexan said:


> But your point is an either or.
> 
> Learn calculus or algebra
> Teach calculus or algebra



No, the point is that, when teaching algebra, don't claim your teaching calculus… or dress it up as calculus… by putting it in calculus' fancy flowing dress… 



TSDTexan said:


> Distinction has a value but I disagree with the dichotomy.
> Arts can speak and inform each other and my Shotokan training makes my TSD art better.



So what? That has nothing to do with the idea of putting hakama in a Korean art school.



TSDTexan said:


> I have come to a place of And/Or.
> Learn calculus and/or algebra.



A Korean art is not a Japanese art… it's not a matter of "and/or"… it's a matter of "is".



TSDTexan said:


> The only new curriculum ahead of me in TSD is the 150 step/movement Yang Taichi form. A whole other Art within my Art. I am not ready to do Tai Chi as my full on studies.



Er… the only part of your Japanese-inspired Korean art is a Chinese system's form? Yeah… no wonder you're getting confused in what to wear… 



TSDTexan said:


> The rest of the tsd curriculum is deepening in what I already have in my head. It is seeking to perfect rather than seeking to learn.



Out of interest… what on earth does this have to do with anything in the thread?



TSDTexan said:


> My Master did not teach a pure TSD art all by itself. He had us doing shikko knee walking up and down the dojo for hours. And kicking and attacking from a sitting position.



Er… okay… still not sure of any relevance… 



TSDTexan said:


> These things... I do as well.
> Makiwara striking.
> Stone hammer conditioning.
> These things my students know because of my shotokon studies, and other styles of Karate training.



Do I point out that chi-ishi (the "stone hammers"), along with much of the other hojo undo equipment, are part of Okinawan systems, not really in Shotokan unless a particular instructor decided to bring them in? Nah… sufficient to say that, well, none of this means anything. You're still teaching a Korean art, with a Korean name, you're just adding in bits of other training methods. That's not an issue… but it doesn't make what you do a Japanese art.

A friend of mine teaches a modern (created in the 50's), Western (created in the UK) system that I would describe as pseudo-Japanese, and quasi-traditional… no matter how much Japanese-themed ideas are added in, weapons, clothing, bowing, nomenclature, or whatever, what he does is not a traditional Japanese art. That doesn't mean it's not good… just that it's not traditional or Japanese. Same here… what you teach is a Korean art. Adding bits and pieces of other cultures methodologies and trappings, including costumes, doesn't change that fact.



TSDTexan said:


> However what Katas that I know apart from Hwang Kee's TSD as it was taught to american G.I.s are not taught to my students.
> 
> Thus I preserve the curriculum of my traditional art of tsd.
> And hand it intact to the next generation.



So… in the end, you just stick to the Korean art when you're teaching? Then that brings us back to the earlier question… why are you concerned about wearing Japanese clothing for your Korean art?



TSDTexan said:


> You should read the article "why I stopped practing my style and you should too" by Jesse Enkamp.
> 
> Why I Stopped Practicing My Karate Style. (Maybe YOU Should Too?) | KARATE by Jesse



Why?

I'm serious here, what benefit do you envision from my reading of Jesse's article?



TSDTexan said:


> Karate is like the whole of a carrot cake.



No, it's not.



TSDTexan said:


> TSD is a part of that cake, but only a small slice.



No, it's not. 



TSDTexan said:


> Shotokan another small slice.



And no, it's not.



TSDTexan said:


> At this point..  I am now looking far back to inform my own art's direction. I accept the whole carrot cake as my style, just like Jesse.
> 
> Soon I may dare to create a formal tradition of my own.



Yeah… Jesse's wrong. For the record (yeah, I did read it… still not sure why you think I should, though…). And you can absolutely create something you think is a "formal tradition"… although I'm not sure you're aware of exactly what that entails, or infers… but how you go about it will determine how it is received.



TSDTexan said:


> I am sure you run into DRAJJ-Hapkido arguments alot.



And… what the hell? You're now bringing another two arts into this?!? Why? 

But yeah, I come across the arguments semi-frequently… not sure if you really want to prod at that one right now… 



TSDTexan said:


> Hence... my question and why I am doing the research.



Then here's where that research should have led you: Korean arts aren't Japanese arts. Most karate systems don't utilise hakama at all… and those that do only employ them on a personal level, or for formal demonstrations in very certain circumstances. The historical photos of karate instructors in hakama are almost entirely formal posed photos (not training, not teaching), and are simply people dressed formally (which happens to be in hakama). But none of this has anything to do with Korean arts, as they're not Japanese… so… kay?



TSDTexan said:


> Thank you for your input there.
> I mean I appreciate your consideration of my ability, my education, and the investment of the greater part of my life and my status within my* own *school and within my lineage.
> It means a lot to me. (Warm friendly smile)



Eh, I have no idea of your ability, and I don't doubt your investment and dedication. Your education, on the other hand, has been shown to be rather lacking in a number of areas you felt secure about… lashing out in a passive/aggressive fashion doesn't change that, you know… 

Oh, and your school and lineage? That would be the Korean one, yeah? The TSD in your name, the one you teach, the one that you've "invested the greater part of your life" for? Kay.



TSDTexan said:


> Thank you for your evaluation.
> A garment that has no ranking value that is more formal ware then anything else. And I don't "rate" wearing it accordingly.



The point is that you have no real reason to wear it… so wearing it is rather out of place. And the way you seem to want to ignore anything that doesn't tell you you can wear it, to the point of ignoring what the clothing is about at all, in favour of your personal desire for what you want it to be, all means that, yeah, you don't "rate" wearing it.



TSDTexan said:


> You realize it is kind of is like telling someone...Hey you're not Scotish you cant wear a kilt and Tux jacket to the ceremonies.  Slacks only for you pal.
> 
> Or hey you're not German so no lederhosen for you this October.
> 
> ...



Er… no. Not at all, actually. It's like saying that if you're eating pizza, don't use chopsticks. If you're eating Chinese, on the other hand, you should be using them. At this point, you're eating pizza and wanting to do it with chopsticks… does that make sense?



TSDTexan said:


> Thank you. You are far wiser than I am. (Warm friendly smile)
> I will spend some time thinking about your evaluation.
> And what I will wear.



Hmm… 



TSDTexan said:


> Back to the main idea...
> 
> Really would appreciate it if you had some input on why karate people would wear it actually wear it in a classroom, (as a belt already significantly indicates rank.).
> 
> That would actually be helpful.



You've been answered on that time and time again. How many times do you want us to repeat it?



TSDTexan said:


> When Chris speaks on KMA and tries to sound like an authority on that specific issue it doesn't carry the same weight as him speaking on Japanese arts that are his area of expertise and experience.
> 
> I have nothing more to say about Chris speaking on KMAs.



Oh, boy… do I bring up my background in Rhee Tae-kwon Do now? Or my background in Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do? My time and conversation with Hapkido instructors, and Aikido instructors?

Mate, my point is simple. If you can refute what I'm saying, do it. Arguing with no argument doesn't make your side look like the one without weight to it.



TSDTexan said:


> What I am looking for are answers to questions. This is a place of conversation. Its perfectly reasonable to have a different opinion in a conversation.



You have been answered. Repeatedly.



TSDTexan said:


> This is a wonderful response. Sincere appreciation to you for it.



Honestly, I think you missed much of what Hyoho was saying there… 



TSDTexan said:


> So is this a daikatana or an ōdachi?



No, it's a katana. You could class it as either if you wanted, though. I'd just call it a katana, myself.



TSDTexan said:


> I don't know how to guage the size, to tell if it is three shaku or longer.
> As I understand it most ōdachi have been cut down due to laws  regarding length in the years 1617, 1626, 1645.
> 
> Most were too large to draw from the waist so the were eaither carried upon the back or a servant carried it for a samurai.



Yeah… you're mixing up some less than accurate information there… I mean… there wasn't any clear-cut delineation of sizing… and the idea that "most were too large to draw from the waist" is disputed by a number of systems that, well, draw them from the waist… Hyoho's ryu-ha of Kage Ryu being one of them (for the record, here is the most authoritative site you'll find on it: http://www.hyoho.com/Nkage2.html… you may note that Kage Ryu is a system of battojutsu… sword drawing…). Another would be Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu… seen here:






And, for the sake of completion, here is Sekiguchi Soke leading his group:








TSDTexan said:


> But there is a notable exception:
> And you mentioning his Ryu is the thing that helped me remember.
> 
> The Kōden Enshin-ryu taught by Fumon Tanaka use a special drawing technique for shorter Ōdachi allowing it to be worn upon the waist.
> ...



Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no.

And, for the record, Takana Fumon is a rather controversial character in Japanese martial arts… the historical veracity of his Enshin Ryu is not overly clear (or accepted in all cases), and a number of his other claims have a number of issues of their own. But, for completion, here's a video of Tanaka Sensei (as well as his daughter) performing an Embu at the memorial of Ueno Takashi a number of years ago. The quality isn't great, but it's a good look at the kind of things found there:








TSDTexan said:


> Back to sensai... an amazing sword at any rate.
> 
> The last of them seemed to have been made as offerings to shinto shrines. If it is a Nodachi then it is very rare indeed.



Many Odachi were created as votive offerings… they're simply not the most practical items to use in many cases (the systems that use overly large swords don't necessarily use them because of the weapon itself… but what it offers the practitioner in terms of skill building). If you were going onto a battlefield, and you had a hand-held weapon, needing range/length, then you'd have a spear… or perhaps a naginata. 



TSDTexan said:


> In Scotland, where my family is partly from we dont wear "anything" below the garment "skirt" either. Tradition calls them Kilts. Typically coverage these days is between about the navel to about the knee.. some folks prefer mid knee others above the knee cap.



And, this has exactly what to do with anything here?!?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2015)

Screw it, when I open my own school I'm creating my own dress code.

For the Master up through Great-great-grandmaster rank (that's me) the proper attire will be as follows:

For the top, a panda rashguard, because pandas are cool.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





For the waist, a kung fu style sash, except with a tartan design depending on rank..(This will be to honor the Scottish ancestry of both myself and the Gracie family)

For the legs, we will wear hakama, but in proper Brazilian fashion the skirt will be NASCARed up with a good selection of colorful sponsor and team patches.

I'm thinking of adding a beret on top in honor of the French side of my family tree, but I'm not sure if that would be too much. What do you guys think?


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 24, 2015)

Chris said:
1.
_Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea._

2.
_Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point… _

3.
_Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…_

4.
So… in the end, you just stick to the Korean art when you're teaching? Then that brings us back to the earlier question… why are you concerned about wearing Japanese clothing for your Korean art?

5.
_Then here's where that research should have led you: Korean arts aren't Japanese arts. Most karate systems don't utilise hakama at all… and those that do only employ them on a personal level, or for formal demonstrations in very certain circumstances. The historical photos of karate instructors in hakama are almost entirely formal posed photos (not training, not teaching), and are simply people dressed formally (which happens to be in hakama). But none of this has anything to do with Korean arts, as they're not Japanese… so… kay?_


6.
_The point is that you have no real reason to wear it… so wearing it is rather out of place. And the way you seem to want to ignore anything that doesn't tell you you can wear it, to the point of ignoring what the clothing is about at all, in favour of your personal desire for what you want it to be, all means that, yeah, you don't "rate" wearing it._

7.
_Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no._




Umm.. 
Chris, Mate... you are responding to a number of comments that are a response to Ballen who was talking to me, about me.
These comments were not directed your way. If you want to jump in and answer for him... ok I guess.


Response to point 1. 

_the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea._

Who brought Karate to Korea first... Koreans or Japanese ? 
The historical truth is the Japanese suppressed the native KMAs but allowed the teaching of the JMAs.

Did the Japanese give them Korean trappings at that time? 
No. They did not.

Did they modify their training methods to develop KMAs?
No the Japanese did not modify Karate in Korea to develop Korean Arts.

Did Koreans later on decide to modify what what not KMA and integrate that into KMAs?
Allegedly yes. Does that make the root art that the Japanese brought during annexation KMA? No.

Localization to customs was after the fact. 

2.
_Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…_

Yes. But until my recent research I didn't know this as a fact. More hunch and supposition, if even that.


3.
_Chris:   "Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…"
_
Me:  While not prescriptively correct, it is descriptively correct. 
The training hall, or dojo of "Shoto" where Funakoshi taught Karate is now a tradition, or a school of thought, or  a discipline (concerning Shoto's karate art).

Here is an example:
There is a formally named branch Kase-ha Shotokan-ryū which "Shotokan Karate" was taught by Kase Ha in France from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s.

4. 
Me: Because I am looking into the reason Karate people wear formal Japanese attire at times. Sometimes even while training. Even if that is rare.

5.
Me: So what if their not Korean. I never said the Koreans came up with the idea of wearing Kimono/Hakama/Haori. I think I have said it was Japanese all along.
Oddly enough Okinaiwans didn't come up with wearing it.... it was something they picked up after they were ANNNEXED like Korea was.

7.
_Chris:  "Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no."_

Have you ever had something jog your memory?
Like seeing something familiar, but not exactly the same thing as what you are looking at?

Eishin and Enshin are only one English letter apart. Now tell me O'sensai... is it even remotely possible that a guy could look at one, and have his brain trigger recognition of something related especially if it is something specific like katana?
If we are honest. Yes.


----------



## Hyoho (Sep 24, 2015)

I think you will find that Koreans always like to put a stripe on uniforms of other countries and call it their own.

Enshin usually describes a circle. For example using enshin ryoku, large circular movements to generate power. A ryu/grade collector is.........a ryu/grade collector. Best not to put video on YouTube and embarrass themselves. The days are long gone when foreigners can't differentiate what is good and bad in M.A. and can actually do this stuff to high degree themselves. Just because people are Japanese does not mean you they good at it. They just like doing it.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Screw it, when I open my own school I'm creating my own dress code.
> 
> For the Master up through Great-great-grandmaster rank (that's me) the proper attire will be as follows:
> 
> ...




Simply awesomeness.

I wonder if your french side was trying was trying to kill my french side way back. And same with the Scots.
The gracies have Scotsblood?

Shocked!

However you will find newaza to be significantly harder in Hakama over judogi pants.

I recommended Gi Cutoff and Hemmed shorts for under the Nascar-Hakamas. I specifically recommend a Mushashi Diamond Stitched Black on White layout to go with the panda theme.

That way you can drop drop trow and kick Arze.




Otherwise this what you could look like..





They already have velcro TYPE easy on hakama..  hakama or what seems like hakama that Korean national team wears... and it has racing stripes..

Racing stripes are a must, They make you faster, but get are the decals. Hakama with a big Viagra sponsorship decal are the final boss mode.

Velcro Hakama with racing stripes is Korean!
No velcro. .. is Japanese.


 

Osss! Ditch the kimono for the rashgard grab a tartan and gi shorts... and ger some ink done on the Velcro hakama.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Chris said:
> 1.
> _Mate, no-one is denying the heritage of the Korean arts (except, it seems, some of the Koreans themselves…). That doesn't change the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea._
> 
> ...




Oh boy… 



TSDTexan said:


> Umm..
> Chris, Mate... you are responding to a number of comments that are a response to Ballen who was talking to me, about me.
> These comments were not directed your way. If you want to jump in and answer for him... ok I guess.



You know, it's funny… when you put your comments in a post that's directed to a quote of mine, and you specifically address what I've said, direct your comments towards me, then I'm going to assume that you're intending your comments to be picked up by me… and the majority of this is in response to your late-edited post number 39 (a response to my post), and your response to my answer in your post #41… of course, I also responded to your comments to Ballen (and pgsmith, for the record), but here's the thing…. this is an open forum discussion… you aren't engaged in a one-on-one conversation. Anyone can join in and answer whatever comment that they like.



TSDTexan said:


> Response to point 1.
> 
> _the fact that they are Korean arts that were adapted in Korea, brought into the Korean culture, given Korean trappings, and developed in Korea._
> 
> Who brought Karate to Korea first... Koreans or Japanese ?



Well… actually, from almost all sources, it was the Koreans. Who learnt in Japan (and on occasion, Okinawa).



TSDTexan said:


> The historical truth is the Japanese suppressed the native KMAs but allowed the teaching of the JMAs.



Suppression of Korean arts… honestly, maybe. The evidence for much in the way of native Korean arts at that time is actually fairly scant… Tae Kyon being the most named, but with wildly varying accounts of what it actually was (the person who claimed to have preserved it also claims that he was taught it as a small child, and only started to claim to have learnt it when he was an old man… which is never the most credible type of claim you can encounter). Additionally, the Japanese martial arts which were "allowed" wasn't a huge number… primarily Kendo (Kumdo) and Judo (Yudo)… although that was a bit later.

The biggest issue with looking into Korean arts' histories is that they have a tendency to deny much of the actual history in favour of putting forth a more propaganda-based story… so it's not an easy thing to discover definitively. 



TSDTexan said:


> Did the Japanese give them Korean trappings at that time?
> No. They did not.



No, the Korean's did. 



TSDTexan said:


> Did they modify their training methods to develop KMAs?
> No the Japanese did not modify Karate in Korea to develop Korean Arts.



The Japanese weren't teaching karate in Korea… the Korean's were.



TSDTexan said:


> Did Koreans later on decide to modify what what not KMA and integrate that into KMAs?
> Allegedly yes. Does that make the root art that the Japanese brought during annexation KMA? No.



Not so much a "later" thing, it should be noted. And we're not talking about the root here… we're talking about what the arts actually are. Korean arts are not Japanese arts.



TSDTexan said:


> Localization to customs was after the fact.



No, as part of the "Korean-ification" of the arts themselves. During the fact.



TSDTexan said:


> 2.
> _Er… yeah? Hakama being part of Japanese formal wear, which had been in Okinawa for a few centuries at that point…_
> 
> Yes. But until my recent research I didn't know this as a fact. More hunch and supposition, if even that.



You asked the question here. One might think that that was because you were hoping to get the answer here, from the membership. You got the answer here. You chose to ignore what you were told in favour of your own research. That's not on us. You were told the reality.



TSDTexan said:


> 3.
> _Chris:   "Oh, and weren't you calling it "Shotokan Ryu" a little while back? Yeah… not a good sign…"
> _
> Me:  While not prescriptively correct, it is descriptively correct.



Er… no, it's really not.



TSDTexan said:


> The training hall, or dojo of "Shoto" where Funakoshi taught Karate is now a tradition, or a school of thought, or  a discipline (concerning Shoto's karate art).



While Shotokan has taken on it's own unique identity, I wouldn't describe it that way, for a number of reasons we've already gone through.



TSDTexan said:


> Here is an example:
> There is a formally named branch Kase-ha Shotokan-ryū which "Shotokan Karate" was taught by Kase Ha in France from the late 1960s to the mid-1980s.



You do realise that Kase Taiji's system is not Shotokan per se, yeah? And is a unique, individual system itself?



TSDTexan said:


> 4.
> Me: Because I am looking into the reason Karate people wear formal Japanese attire at times. Sometimes even while training. Even if that is rare.



Well, that's not exactly an answer to what I asked… but, if that's the case, how about you, I don't know, listen to when we have repeatedly told you the answer?



TSDTexan said:


> 5.
> Me: So what if their not Korean. I never said the Koreans came up with the idea of wearing Kimono/Hakama/Haori. I think I have said it was Japanese all along.
> Oddly enough Okinaiwans didn't come up with wearing it.... it was something they picked up after they were ANNNEXED like Korea was.



Er… are you actually reading what we're posting???



TSDTexan said:


> 7.
> _Chris:  "Er… the Koden Enshin Ryu (and it's associate Honmon Enshin Ryu) isn't anything to do with Sekiguchi Komei's Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu… so… no."_
> 
> Have you ever had something jog your memory?
> Like seeing something familiar, but not exactly the same thing as what you are looking at?



Hey, what happened to number 6? Oh well…



TSDTexan said:


> Eishin and Enshin are only one English letter apart. Now tell me O'sensai... is it even remotely possible that a guy could look at one, and have his brain trigger recognition of something related especially if it is something specific like katana?
> If we are honest. Yes.



Sure… but hey, how about we stick to the topic, and maybe keep to not trying to educate people such as Hyoho and myself on these topics? For the record, Hyoho absolutely dwarfs my status and knowledge in these areas… and you still seem to have missed what he's been saying. That said, I'm with him… ryu/grade collectors are just that… if you can pick up on what we're saying there…


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 25, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh boy…
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Okey O'sensei. You believe there were no arrests and executions of KMA teachers during annexation ?
That native arts were suppressed with full on death is a fact. There are shrines in Korea mate that bear witness to the fact.

And that Japanese soldiers didn't open the first dojos of Karate?

You need to go check your history.
Cause on this one you are wrong Pal.

Japanese taught karate first in Korea.

Although nationalism has made many koreans scitzophrenic wrt history. Returning koreans who learned in Japan and Okinawa found karate dojos already had sprung up.


As for the rest of your noise. You offer opinion intermixed with a fact or two.

And yes on the issue of students who come for ranks and certificate instead of a way of life are not actually learning their art. Etc. I agree.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> And that Japanese soldiers didn't open the first dojos of Karate?


Do you have a cite for that? Most of the accounts I've read have described the various kwans as being founded by Koreans who had trained in Japan. I'm not a KMA history expert, so I may have missed something.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Do you have a cite for that? Most of the accounts I've read have described the various kwans as being founded by Koreans who had trained in Japan. I'm not a KMA history expert, so I may have missed something.



The kwans were subsequent to the end of a 35ish year annexation. 1910 to 1945. Three and a half decades.

Every public dojang of KMA was shuttered, and a snitch network was established. Dojangs that weren't burned down were turned into JMA dojos.

Much of this from first hand KMA artists who were there and tild me directly and from individuals whoses parents were 1st hand witnesses who carried the events forward.

I have a korean newpaper article, (somwehere around my office) on one korean dojoang where the records of the school were kept intact through both transitions and name the Japanese sensei who ran the school during the 35 year period.

The fact that dojangs were occupied and converted is common knowledge within many KMAs and can easily be verified.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The kwans were subsequent to the end of a 35ish year annexation. 1910 to 1945. Three and a half decades.
> 
> Every public dojang of KMA was shuttered, and a snitch network was established. Dojangs that weren't burned down were turned into JMA dojos.
> 
> ...



Then you have all the TKDs dojangs that were built 1910-1945... who built these? 
Koreans... for whom?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Sep 25, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The kwans were subsequent to the end of a 35ish year annexation. 1910 to 1945. Three and a half decades.
> 
> Every public dojang of KMA was shuttered, and a snitch network was established. Dojangs that weren't burned down were turned into JMA dojos.
> 
> ...


Interesting. If you can find that newspaper article, I'd love to read the details.

Have you confirmed that the dojos in question were teaching Karate and not some other JMA such as Judo or Kendo? After all, Karate didn't come to Japan until  the 1920s, so I wouldn't expect that Japanse instructors would be teaching Karate in Korea prior to that.  Is it also confirmed that these instructors were teaching Koreans and not just other Japanese?

If this is correct, it raises questions. I believe there is solid documentation that the founders of the kwans  originally trained outside Korea (in Japan mostly). If Koreans were learning karate from Japanese instructors in Korea for 35 years before the founding of the Kwons, then what became of all those students? Did they join the kwans? Did those lineages die out?

Any KMA experts want to chime in?


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. If you can find that newspaper article, I'd love to read the details.
> 
> Have you confirmed that the dojos in question were teaching Karate and not some other JMA such as Judo or Kendo? After all, Karate didn't come to Japan until  the 1920s, so I wouldn't expect that Japanse instructors would be teaching Karate in Korea prior to that.  Is it also confirmed that these instructors were teaching Koreans and not just other Japanese?
> 
> ...



The schools were primarily for the Japanese who went to colonialize but really gifted students were swiped from prior kma schools. Under annexation laws everyone took on a Japanese name.

All schools taught Japanese language and korean language was banned under penalty of law.

It is clear Koreans were taught yudo and gumdo during annexation by the Japanese.  Koreans didnt have either.
It is clear that Japanese teachers had no problem accepting Korean students in those arts.

By and large moreans were to become second class Japanese citizens under the plan of annexation.

There are a number of yusul (korean word for jujutsu) that were transplanted in Korea during annexation.

The fight of the kwans and the resulting korea-washing after the fact and a search for self identity (read editing history) greatly damaged historical links with regard to karate in Korea during annexation.
Karate Schools did exist in Seoul. They were in the Japanese educational system.

Karate masters did leave Okinawa and Japan and vistited many other countries such as China and Korea. They only went to countries that had already established dojos usually by their own students.

Hwang Kee (my kwan founder) even stated that he took instruction in (karate) in grade school.

Hwang Kee was born on November 9, 1914 in Jang Dan, Kyong Ki province of Korea, while it was under Japanese occupation.

His father was a scholar and teacher, thus Kee was one of the few young men in the province to complete high school in 1935. He first studied martial arts, Soo Bahk and Tae Kyon while in school.

But we know that all korean martial arts are supressed. And the public school system is only teaching JMAs...

So what do we do... we call Shotokan Karate something else.
"Soo Bahk". We have an anachronism here. Soobahk wouldnt come into existence until 1959/60.

Itousu had created the public school katas and they were already well under way in Japan in the 20s. These same (Heinan) Forms were being taught to Japanese kids in Korea's public schools.

Hwang Kee's dad taught the chinese classics and math as well as a few other disciplenes. Most koreans only got a 4 year education. Japanese kids in korea got a 6 year education. Hwang Kee got 8 years of middle high and high school.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The schools were primarily for the Japanese who went to colonialize but really gifted students were swiped from prior kma schools. Under annexation laws everyone took on a Japanese name.
> 
> All schools taught Japanese language and korean language was banned under penalty of law.
> 
> ...



The desire to hide the Japanese roots of tsd and tkd is a genuine deal for the kwan founders. Ultranationalism is at a peak. Soo bahk do is "ancient korean art" look... I found it in a book and figured out how to make it work.

This how Joon Rhee goes from Teaching Karate in Texas to teaching TaeKwonDo overnight.


----------



## TSDTexan (Sep 26, 2015)

Bringing Taekwondo to America

_"In 1960, I was sent to the United States for a weapons course. The focus was on missiles like the Nike and the Hawk. As a result, we spent more time having field trips than classroom studies.

After the course ended in April, I went to see my friend Jhoon Rhee, who was teaching Taekwondo in San Antonio, Texas. In that era, it was difficult to reach such a remote place by plane.

I had many questions before I saw him. The big question was whether or not he was calling his art “Taekwondo”. As soon as I got off the plane, I asked him.

Rhee confessed that he was calling it “karate” because his students better knew the term. Realizing that he had learned the full techniques of Taekwondo before leaving Korea, I did not scold him.

That evening, forty students gathered to meet me in the practice hall of the local university. I took off my jacket and demonstrated the technical differences between karate and Taekwondo for about an hour.

At the end of the demonstration, the students asked me to inscribe the name of “Taekwondo” on their uniforms. I had to use permanent marker. I considered this day the first day that Taekwondo was brought to America. This is also why I consider Jhoon Rhee the first Taekwondo instructor in America. "_
-General Choi Hong-Hi

JR changed the calling it of Korean Karate & Tang Soo Do and he did this at the urging of Choi, who wanted to make Taekwondo to establish its own Korean identity, something it couldn't do with Japanese forms.

Jhoon Rhee states that he learned the "Chang Hon" forms from the South Korean Army Field Manual sent to him by Choi Hong Hi. The "Chang Hon" set of forms are still taught by independent American Taekwondo instructors who came from the Jhoon Rhee lineage.

Jhoon Rhee was teaching Karate. And calling it Karate.
Learns new forms from the ROK Army Manual sent to him by a General, who ASAPs him the book with said forms.

Said General shows up after JR has had time to review said forms, to inspect JRs performance of said forms and add missing specifics. (Please refer to the quote at the beginning)

Tells karate students oh no... you don't do karate you do ancient 1600 year old Tae Kwon Do... here let me show you difference.
Wowed by a Korean General they believe him.
after all the General was a Second Dan in karate and trained under Kim Hyun Soo (KOREAN) and G. FUNAKOSHI.

1956 - Grand Master Jhoon Rhee, "Father of American Tae Kwon Do", introduces "Korean Karate" to the U.S. when he attends Southwest Texas State College.

Teaches Korean Karate up until 1960... bam... overnight Becomes a TKD guy.

1960 - Grand Master Jhoon Rhee moves to Washington D.C. and establishes the Jhoon Rhee Institute. (JRI)

1961 - Grand Master Allen Steen is promoted to Black Belt by Grand Master Jhoon Rhee and opens the first professional karate school in Dallas, Texas.

1963 - Grand Master J. Pat Burleson, who received a Brown Belt while stationed in Okinawa, is promoted to Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do by Grand Master Jhoon Rhee and opens his first school in Ft. Worth, Texas.

Hmmmm steals a karate brown belt and insta promotion to black belt. What about all the training in TKD?

1964 - Grand Master J. Pat Burleson becomes the first National Karate Champion by winning the National Karate Championships held in Washington D.C..

GrandMaster Rhee’s first American black belt was a Texan named Allen R. Steen who built the Lone Star state into one of the first strongholds of Karate in the U.S.A.

Steen opened the first "American" Karate school in Texas in 1962 in Dallas.  Mr. Steen’s reputation as a champion and instructor of champions in the 1960’s and 70’s was rivaled only by California’s Chuck Norris (whom Steen defeated to earn the 1966 International Karate Championships).

So who taught Jhoon Rhee? Jhoon Rhee starts training in 1945... the year annexation ended...
So his teacher... was Nam Tae Hi (who began training in the martial arts in 1946, training after school for five nights each week.)

Wait... official story say teacher Nam is beginning as a student of Lee. (The Won Kuk Lee), A year after taking Jhoon Rhee as a student.

Hmm. The missing information (blacked out) is that NAM TAE HI was already a black belt of annex era Japanese Karate in country, who is white washing his back story by claiming his training to be after his teacher of recordWon Kuk Lee returned from Japan.

JR: I started training karate ahem tkd in 1945. My teacher started his training in karate Ahem TKD a year AFTER me in 1946. My teacher learned from a guy who studied Karate in Japan. 
In about a decade I will promote an okinawa karate brown belt to blackbelt. In TKD. 


The problem with conspiracy is that if your teacher's story and your own don't line up... the truth will out.

And in the 1960s San Antonio had a huge international airport and like 4 air force bases with incredibly long runways.
Many Airlines have hubs there and Boot Camp for the USAF is there. (Interesting fact, the first time I got to fire an M-60 was at a USAF Range in San Antonio.)



So the General Choi Hong-Hi is a bs artiste.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. If you can find that newspaper article, I'd love to read the details.
> 
> Have you confirmed that the dojos in question were teaching Karate and not some other JMA such as Judo or Kendo? After all, Karate didn't come to Japan until  the 1920s, so I wouldn't expect that Japanse instructors would be teaching Karate in Korea prior to that.  Is it also confirmed that these instructors were teaching Koreans and not just other Japanese?
> 
> ...



Karate (hongsoodo) was absorbed into the blackhole of TKD by Government Law. Almost all the Kwans and schools were.

Hwang Kee fought to remain separate because he couldn't have a seat on the testing and grading head commitee.
His kwan left unification.  He was jailed but powerful friends set him loose. One other Kwan renained outside as well, following Hwangs lead. 5 kwans became 9 then 30 then 1 Kukkiwan. 

Karate ceased being taught in the public schools in the mid 40s.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. If you can find that newspaper article, I'd love to read the details.
> 
> Have you confirmed that the dojos in question were teaching Karate and not some other JMA such as Judo or Kendo? After all, Karate didn't come to Japan until  the 1920s, so I wouldn't expect that Japanse instructors would be teaching Karate in Korea prior to that.  Is it also confirmed that these instructors were teaching Koreans and not just other Japanese?
> 
> ...



An articcle worth reading:
"People and Events in Taekwondos Formative Years"

Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Vol. 6 No. 1 (1997): 

By Dakin Burdick, Ph.D.

People and Events in Taekwondos Formative Years


With solid reference materials, the author clearly presents how martial art systems developed in Korea, largely through Chinese and Japanese influences. 

According to tae kwon do scholar and black belt Dakin Burdick, Japan began a long and difficult occupation of Korea in 1905, *which included banning the practice of martial arts, beginning in 1909. This ban was partly lifted as the Japanese began preparing to enter World War II, introducing several forms to the occupied Koreans, including judo, karate and kung fu. *


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## TSDTexan (Sep 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. If you can find that newspaper article, I'd love to read the details.
> 
> Have you confirmed that the dojos in question were teaching Karate and not some other JMA such as Judo or Kendo? After all, Karate didn't come to Japan until  the 1920s, so I wouldn't expect that Japanse instructors would be teaching Karate in Korea prior to that.  Is it also confirmed that these instructors were teaching Koreans and not just other Japanese?
> 
> ...




Just got off a two hour call to Seoul.

Won Kuk Lee had a early shotokan karate school in operation in korea during the occupation. Before the annexation ended.

Won Kuk Lee the founder of Chung Do Kwan has Hwang Kee listed in his records as a 5th kyu, aboutbelt level. He states Hwang came to him to learn the correct movements of Karate.

During the annexation.


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