# Surmounting your limits



## Jenna (Aug 12, 2017)

When you get to your physical limit, can you overcome that? 

I read people have written no matter how close to your limit physically that can be seen as an artificial mental construct? This is true?? Like people say some time 101% or 110%.. how you overcome what feel like 100% limit? Or that is nonsenses and our physical limit is set in stone for each of us?? Or it is more like a scale with no definitive answer??? 

Maybe for your self you would have technique?? or like what is your self-talk to mentally coerce or persuade your self beyond what feel like the stone wall of your physical limit?? thank you <3


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## jobo (Aug 12, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you get to your physical limit, can you overcome that?
> 
> I read people have written no matter how close to your limit physically that can be seen as an artificial mental construct? This is true?? Like people say some time 101% or 110%.. how you overcome what feel like 100% limit? Or that is nonsenses and our physical limit is set in stone for each of us?? Or it is more like a scale with no definitive answer???
> 
> Maybe for your self you would have technique?? or like what is your self-talk to mentally coerce or persuade your self beyond what feel like the stone wall of your physical limit?? thank you <3



it depends on which aspect your refering to really, there is an upper limit, but most of us get nowhere near it. A professional runner might spend four years trying to get a quarter of a second of his lap time. Most people would call that a ceiling but they see it differently, they see it as slow improvement.

and that's the rub, the fitter you become, the harder improvement becomes, the more dedication and effort you need to get to the next step and then the one beyond that.
then of course  there are steroids


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 12, 2017)

During live and death situation, our physical limitation will be increased.

When I was young, one day I was on the horse back. My horse (leased) ran into the woods. There was a cross tree branch that was going to hit on my chest.

- I pulled my feet off the stirrup,
- back flipped, and
- landed back down on the ground.

I have never trained the "back flip" in my life. I don't think I can ever repeat what had happened that day. I can see it may be possible that I can perform 110% on some skill that I'm good at. But for some skill that I have never trained, it was quite amazing that I could do it that day.


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## jobo (Aug 12, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> During live and death situation, our physical limitation will be increased.
> 
> When I was young, one day I was on the horse back. My horse (leased) ran into the woods. There was a cross tree branch that was going to hit on my chest.
> 
> ...


that's what adrenaline is for, which is why I'm all ways taken  back when people say its the enemy is SD situations


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## drop bear (Aug 12, 2017)

Depends. There is a physical and a limit. You just keep training both and they get better.


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 12, 2017)

My perspective on this is that their is no >100%. As some ones skilles, endurence, stamina, strength, ect, developer it increases how much that 100% is. There is no "Breaking" a limit, simply increasing the limit.  Say you are doing pushups, and all that you can do on day x is 10 (I know it is low, just go with it). Well your "100%" = 10 push ups. Then, after developing you are able to 11 push ups. The 100% = 11 now. A "limit" should be seen more as a goal, so I did 11 push ups, the next day I am going to make my "limit" 12, making 100% = 12. If I do <11, then I did not reach my limit and there for did not reach 100%. 

My goal is to never reach 100%. I want to keep pushing my limit so far that I my "100%" is constantly growing, and there for I will never reach my "limit". 

So the short answer is: it depends on what you see as 100%. Is 100% what your body can do, or what you think your body can do. A "limit"/ 100% should always be growing and increasing.

Hope this makes since.


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## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Depends. There is a physical and a limit. You just keep training both and they get better.


Will this mean at some point you physically get to do what you cannot *currently* do?? How do you train this to say this right here today feel like I am training at my limit and but is not my limit, there is another limit I have not reach and can push to? How to get there?? thank you


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## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> My perspective on this is that their is no >100%. As some ones skilles, endurence, stamina, strength, ect, developer it increases how much that 100% is. There is no "Breaking" a limit, simply increasing the limit.  Say you are doing pushups, and all that you can do on day x is 10 (I know it is low, just go with it). Well your "100%" = 10 push ups. Then, after developing you are able to 11 push ups. The 100% = 11 now. A "limit" should be seen more as a goal, so I did 11 push ups, the next day I am going to make my "limit" 12, making 100% = 12. If I do <11, then I did not reach my limit and there for did not reach 100%.
> 
> My goal is to never reach 100%. I want to keep pushing my limit so far that I my "100%" is constantly growing, and there for I will never reach my "limit".
> 
> ...


Yes! make sense yes thank you  So I can ask you please to use your example if it is ok? So say you do 11 push up then next day you want to get to 12, what happen that day if your PT or coach or teacher or drill sergeant or inner voice or some external circumstance dictate you must to do 20 push up and but your limit for this day @100% is 12.. you just cannot do 20 right?? that be like 166% or some thing unfeasible? is not possible?? or is possible? For you I mean?? Is there a way, or not any way that can happen? thank you


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you get to your physical limit, can you overcome that?
> 
> I read people have written no matter how close to your limit physically that can be seen as an artificial mental construct? This is true?? Like people say some time 101% or 110%.. how you overcome what feel like 100% limit? Or that is nonsenses and our physical limit is set in stone for each of us?? Or it is more like a scale with no definitive answer???
> 
> Maybe for your self you would have technique?? or like what is your self-talk to mentally coerce or persuade your self beyond what feel like the stone wall of your physical limit?? thank you <3


We do each have an absolute limit of what we can do at any given moment, but it is not where we think it is. While I hate the "give 110%" expressions, the idea they are meant to convey is valid. The best example is the 4-minute mile. For many years it was thought to be beyond the physical limits of a human. Then Roger Bannister ran a mile in less than 4 minutes, and suddenly others can, too.

Of course, even the absolute limit can often be moved (that's why I said "at any given moment"). Right now, there's a limit to what I can lift in a bench press. No matter what someone says or what I do, I won't be able to lift more than that absolute limit today. But that limit can be moved. For me, a bit more shoulder rehab will double what I can lift in the full range; after that, exercising near that limit will allow me to push the limit up.

Part of our training in MA should be (IMO, though that won't necessarily hold for everyone) occasionally pushing our limits. Most people, when they start a running regimen, think they are "done" at some point in their first run, but they can usually actually run a good bit further (if they haven't run too fast). Our bodies have built-in survival cues that tell us to stop before we get near our limits in endurance. Pushing past that point appears to be linked to willpower processes, so it's something we can practice and improve. Every time we "push the limit", even a bit, we improve our ability to push that limit. @drop bear posted something about this in another thread recently, and I suspect it's also part of what makes their 12-week fight prep work in the gym he trains at. 

This is why many seminars work students so hard, why many TMA schools have a few days a year when they work especially hard (I've heard them called "sweat days", "Summer breakthrough days" and many others). For those training seriously and putting in many hours, they should make sure they're pushing the limit on a relatively regular basis. Training 20 hours a week without pushing the limit isn't as useful, IMO, as training 10 hours a week and pushing the limit 4 of those hours.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Yes! make sense yes thank you  So I can ask you please to use your example if it is ok? So say you do 11 push up then next day you want to get to 12, what happen that day if your PT or coach or teacher or drill sergeant or inner voice or some external circumstance dictate you must to do 20 push up and but your limit for this day @100% is 12.. you just cannot do 20 right?? that be like 166% or some thing unfeasible? is not possible?? or is possible? For you I mean?? Is there a way, or not any way that can happen? thank you


If the person's actual limit - all they can do under normal circumstances is 12, then that's all they can do. Except, of course, with that drill instructor yelling at them, adrenaline may kick in, which changes the limit (note, I said "normal circumstances" before). So 20 may be within the "adrenaline limit", but not within the "normal limit". In actuality, most of us can do more push-ups than we feel (but less than we think - people often claim to do more push-ups than they can actually do, by not doing them full-range). If someone is doing push-ups on their own and can't do the 13th, often just with the bit of motivation from a partner (or the pretty girl they hope is watching), they can push themselves a bit further and do one or two more. If they aren't used to pushing the limit, they may be able to do several more, even when they feel they can't.


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> So say you do 11 push up then next day you want to get to 12, what happen that day if your PT or coach or teacher or drill sergeant or inner voice or some external circumstance dictate you must to do 20 push up and but your limit for this day @100% is 12.. you just cannot do 20 right?? that be like 166% or some thing unfeasible? is not possible?? or is possible? For you I mean?? Is there a way, or not any way that can happen? thank you





For me, no it would not be a 166% to do more than my limit. That is the thing about these "limits" that people put on themselves, it is more of what they think they can do instead of just doing it. So, going off the push up example, if I try to increase my 100% = 12 pushups, but the "inner voice", coach, ect is calling me to do more then one of two things is going to happen. Either you will reach your "100%", or  what your coaches/ect 100% is. That is why I don't like to do training alone, because what I think to be my 100% could just be  20% of what I can actually do.

So, back to the push up example. If my 100% =12, yet a  external circumstance has me do > 12, then that is a 100% of what I can do. I made my "limit" too small, and having that extra perspective can help make clear what is 100% and what is <100%. My goal was 12, yet I made my goal to small.

Also, with the sinario that we are working with, I probobly should not have made it so linear. That is a fault on me. When I explain that on x days i can do 10 -> 11-> 12 push ups, it is ment to show that thiere is a growth. A 100%, "limit", goal, whatever you want to call it, should be constantly changing and growing. Otherwise, you will be doing 10% of 100% of what you can actually do.

Hope this makes scene.


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Will this mean at some point you physically get to do what you cannot *currently* do?? How do you train this to say this right here today feel like I am training at my limit and but is not my limit, there is another limit I have not reach and can push to? How to get there?? thank you



You train untill failure. Be it mental failure or physical. It is body building 101 or boot camp 101. Or fight camp 101.

And your failure point keeps getting further away.

There is not even really a trick to it. You just keep pushing.

But ok. Say you do bench press. At some point your arms will not lift that weight. Regardless of how much you want to. Physical limit.

If you hold a squat or horse stance you basically quit when it hurts too much. Mental limit.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> For me, no it would not be a 166% to do more than my limit. That is the thing about these "limits" that people put on themselves, it is more of what they think they can do instead of just doing it. So, going off the push up example, if I try to increase my 100% = 12 pushups, but the "inner voice", coach, ect is calling me to do more then one of two things is going to happen. Either you will reach your "100%", or  what your coaches/ect 100% is. That is why I don't like to do training alone, because what I think to be my 100% could just be  20% of what I can actually do.
> 
> So, back to the push up example. If my 100% =12, yet a  external circumstance has me do > 12, then that is a 100% of what I can do. I made my "limit" too small, and having that extra perspective can help make clear what is 100% and what is <100%. My goal was 12, yet I made my goal to small.
> 
> ...


but push ups arnt a good choice as an example of improved athletic performance, . This takes us into the thorny issue of how we measure improvements and if we are using a realistic measure of real word performance,,,
when you start of push up are hard and you are building maximal strengh, but as your body adapts push up go from a strengh exercise to an endurance exercises, to a light endurance exercise, once beyond a certain point say 40, then you can pick any number you want as a target and get there, 100,200,300? and doing them just gets easier and easier, people who continue to develop their push up total may think this is making them fitter, but really its making very very little difference to their fitness development.

they are just getting better and better at doing push ups, which is only useful if your doing cross fit competition or just showing off, it has very limited cross over to Ma

they would be better of sticking at 40, and either making them more difficult by hand placement or putting a,clock on it and trying to do them faster and faster. Or both


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but push ups arnt a good choice as an example of improved athletic performance, . This takes us into the thorny issue of how we measure improvements and if we are using a realistic measure of real word performance,,,
> when you start of push up are hard and you are building maximal strengh, but as your body adapts push up go from a strengh exercise to an endurance exercises, to a light endurance exercise, once beyond a certain point say 40, then you can pick any number you want as a target and get there, 100,200,300? and doing them just gets easier and easier, people who continue to develop their push up total may think this is making them fitter, but really its making very very little difference to their fitness development.
> 
> they are just getting better and better at doing push ups, which is only useful if your doing cross fit competition or just showing off, it has very limited cross over to Ma
> ...




Push ups were just an example. The point I am trying to make is that 100% should not be stagnent. Your 100%  should be constantly changing and growing, otherwise one simply has a well developed 10% when they could be doing so much more. 

I do see the issue with using push ups ( from a technical view), but push ups are universaly known and every one knows what a typical push ups is. It was makes more sence than giving an exersies or example that is less known. 

Thank you for the analysis though.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Push ups were just an example. The point I am trying to make is that 100% should not be stagnent. Your 100%  should be constantly changing and growing, otherwise one simply has a well developed 10% when they could be doing so much more.
> 
> I do see the issue with using push ups ( from a technical view), but push ups are universaly known and every one knows what a typical push ups is. It was makes more sence than giving an exersies or example that is less known.
> 
> Thank you for the analysis though.


but the point I'm making, is that constantly seeking to improve a body weight ( or weight )exercise by doing additional reps is not a good improver or indicator of athletic( real world ) performance.
setting such as a target, beyond a certain point, might mean you hit your goal and you may feel a,sense of achievement having reached your 160%,but it is robbing you are of actual physical( real wold) performance.Which is the title of the thread


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but push ups arnt a good choice as an example of improved athletic performance, . This takes us into the thorny issue of how we measure improvements and if we are using a realistic measure of real word performance,,,
> when you start of push up are hard and you are building maximal strengh, but as your body adapts push up go from a strengh exercise to an endurance exercises, to a light endurance exercise, once beyond a certain point say 40, then you can pick any number you want as a target and get there, 100,200,300? and doing them just gets easier and easier, people who continue to develop their push up total may think this is making them fitter, but really its making very very little difference to their fitness development.
> 
> they are just getting better and better at doing push ups, which is only useful if your doing cross fit competition or just showing off, it has very limited cross over to Ma
> ...


I don't think any of that changes his example, especially since he didn't go beyond 12.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but the point I'm making, is that constantly seeking to improve a body weight ( or weight )exercise by doing additional reps is not a good improver or indicator of athletic( real world ) performance.
> setting such as a target, beyond a certain point, might mean you hit your goal and you may feel a,sense of achievement having reached your 160%,but it is robbing you are of actual physical( real wold) performance.Which is the title of the thread


He wasn't giving exercise advice, he was giving an example. Your response assumes a specific goal, which was not part of the example. Someone may, in fact, wish to be able to do 100 full-range push-ups without stopping. That's not necessarily a fitness goal, any more than climbing a 5-10 wall is.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> He wasn't giving exercise advice, he was giving an example. Your response assumes a specific goal, which was not part of the example. Someone may, in fact, wish to be able to do 100 full-range push-ups without stopping. That's not necessarily a fitness goal, any more than climbing a 5-10 wall is.


well yes his was, he was telling people how to improve performance by working at 110% or what ever silly measure he was using. It's nonsenses' working to failure is 100%, if your haven't fell on your nose you haven't got to 100%, let,alone 110160% or what ever.

someone may indeed wish o do 100push ups, they should be aware that , that is a goal in its self, that has next to no bearing on physical performance in any other situation than doing push ups.

I've noticed that people in general and some,Maists, get side tracked into doing exercise that has little bearing on improving their( MA )performance.
the point of exercise for MA is that it improves your MA performance. You don't find sports men in general wasting their time getting good at exercises that don't improve their tennis or their football or their running, yet it seems rife in ma

you need to think of yourself as an athlete and design an exercise program accordingly


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you hold a squat or horse stance you basically quit when it hurts too much. Mental limit.


If you push to your limit, you may not feel like to do it next day or the day after. It's better to reach just 80% of your limitation. This way, "you still feel like to do more, but you force yourself not too". You will look forward to do it next day.

It's always better to reserve 20% of your energy to handle something unexpected. You may need to get into a street fight the moment that you finished your workout in your gym. It will be bad that you are so exhausted that you can't even defend yourself.

MA is life long training. It's not important how hard that you may push yourself today. It matters whether you will still do this when you are 70 or even 80.

Try to "enjoy your training" is the key.


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> well yes his was, he was telling people how to improve performance by working at 110% or what ever silly measure he was using. It's nonsenses' working to failure is 100%, if your haven't fell on your nose you haven't got to 100%, let,alone 110160% or what ever.
> 
> someone may indeed wish o do 100push ups, they should be aware that , that is a goal in its self, that has next to no bearing on physical performance in any other situation than doing push ups.
> 
> ...




Ok, taking it from a strictly MA perspective, it can still be used. I don't want to have reached 100% of my MA potential. I want the 100% to be constantly growing. If I reach 100% of my MA potential, then I need to find something els. Something I have missed, something to add to my arsenal, a new perspective, something that causes that 100% to carry more. I learn, I grow, and my limits change, and my 100% will consist of more that somone who dose not expand their 100%. 

Push ups were just used to illustrate. I don't care if they make someone stronger, but the point still stands. 

Limits should be constantly changing and growing. If one has believed to have reached a limit and dose not change, then they are handicapping themselves.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you push to your limit, you may not feel like to do it next day or the day after. It's better to reach just 80% of your limitation. This way, "you still feel like to do more, but you force yourself not too". You will look forward to do it next day.
> 
> It's always better to reserve 20% of your energy to handle something unexpected. You may need to get into a street fight the moment that you finished your workout in your gym. It will be bad that you are so exhausted that you can't even defend yourself.
> 
> ...


but if and when you get in a,street fight you will only be capable of physical performance at 80% of your potential maximum, you are not going to make any significant improvements in performance coasting through training at 80% effort. That's what i mean about the half hearted Ma attitude to fitness


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Ok, taking it from a strictly MA perspective, it can still be used. I don't want to have reached 100% of my MA potential. I want the 100% to be constantly growing. If I reach 100% of my MA potential, then I need to find something els. Something I have missed, something to add to my arsenal, a new perspective, something that causes that 100% to carry more. I learn, I grow, and my limits change, and my 100% will consist of more that somone who dose not expand their 100%.
> 
> Push ups were just used to illustrate. I don't care if they make someone stronger, but the point still stands.
> 
> Limits should be constantly changing and growing. If one has believed to have reached a limit and dose not change, then they are handicapping themselves.


yes and that comes from focusing your training on exercises that directly effect MA performance  and working to and( using drop sets techniques) beyond failure, people get side tracked in to adding reps to things when the bodies adaption mechanism has long given up on it


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> well yes his was, he was telling people how to improve performance by working at 110% or what ever silly measure he was using. It's nonsenses' working to failure is 100%, if your haven't fell on your nose you haven't got to 100%, let,alone 110160% or what ever.
> 
> someone may indeed wish o do 100push ups, they should be aware that , that is a goal in its self, that has next to no bearing on physical performance in any other situation than doing push ups.
> 
> ...


Yes, he was discussing how one can progress from one point to another. That's not nearly the same as giving fitness advice. It would apply to fitness goals, as to other goals (reading speed, stuffing envelopes, and many other activities). And he actually made the point that it's NOT working at 110% - that's an absolute strawman, so any silliness in that is entirely your own.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you push to your limit, you may not feel like to do it next day or the day after. It's better to reach just 80% of your limitation. This way, "you still feel like to do more, but you force yourself not too". You will look forward to do it next day.
> 
> It's always better to reserve 20% of your energy to handle something unexpected. You may need to get into a street fight the moment that you finished your workout in your gym. It will be bad that you are so exhausted that you can't even defend yourself.
> 
> ...


That depends what you're trying to do. For developing strength, 80% will get you there, but 100% at regular intervals will lead to faster development. If we're talking about general training, your statement is absolutely correct. If I go with everything I have during a training session, ending completely wiped out and muscles feeling like jelly, I need some time to recover from that before I can go at any intensity again. If I want to train the next day with any intensity, I need to hold some reserve so I can recover quickly enough.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but if and when you get in a,street fight you will only be capable of physical performance at 80% of your potential maximum, you are not going to make any significant improvements in performance coasting through training at 80% effort. That's what i mean about the half hearted Ma attitude to fitness


Incorrect. If that were true, we'd never be able to lift more than we normally lift. In reality, I can usually lift more than I've lifted in the last month - especially this past month, since I've been recovering from a series of injuries for the last year. My bench press, for instance, is currently kept relatively low (a bit below bodyweight) to allow my shoulder to heal. However, I can tell when I'm lifting that weight that my muscles can push more than that - most likely a lot more if I don't care about the pain in the shoulder for the next week. And that's not accounting for the performance boots from adrenaline.

Your statement assumes that operating at 80% reduces our maximum, so now what was 80% is 100%. If we're actually operating at 80% of normal max, then we have another 20% available even without adrenaline.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes and that comes from focusing your training on exercises that directly effect MA performance  and working to and( using drop sets techniques) beyond failure, people get side tracked in to adding reps to things when the bodies adaption mechanism has long given up on it


You're still acting like he said people should do bodyweight pushups. He never made that statement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but if and when you get in a,street fight you will only be capable of physical performance at 80% of your potential maximum, you are not going to make any significant improvements in performance coasting through training at 80% effort. That's what i mean about the half hearted Ma attitude to fitness


I prefer to have 1/2 hearted MA attitude for the rest of my life than to have a full hearted MA attitude for just 5 years and quite after that. If you can push yourself 110% and still be able to do it for the next 30 years, you are extremely good.

I still have a huge rock next to my drive way that I used to move around when I was young. I don't do that any more today because I didn't "enjoy" of doing it. That rock is just too much weight for me. I still like to lift up my broken heavy bag over my shoulder because that weight is what  I "enjoy" of doing it even today.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Incorrect. If that were true, we'd never be able to lift more than we normally lift. In reality, I can usually lift more than I've lifted in the last month - especially this past month, since I've been recovering from a series of injuries for the last year. My bench press, for instance, is currently kept relatively low (a bit below bodyweight) to allow my shoulder to heal. However, I can tell when I'm lifting that weight that my muscles can push more than that - most likely a lot more if I don't care about the pain in the shoulder for the next week. And that's not accounting for the performance boots from adrenaline.
> 
> Your statement assumes that operating at 80% reduces our maximum, so now what was 80% is 100%. If we're actually operating at 80% of normal max, then we have another 20% available even without adrenaline.


if you keep lifting at 80% of max, you will soon find that Is your new max, especially at your age


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I prefer to have 1/2 hearted MA attitude for the rest of my life than to have a full hearted MA attitude for just 5 years and quite after that. If you can push yourself 110% and still be able to do it for the next 30 years, you are extremely good.
> 
> I still have a huge rock next to my drive way that I used to move around when I was young. I don't do that any more today because I didn't "enjoy" of doing it. That rock is just too much weight for me. I still like to lift up my broken heavy bag over my shoulder because that weight is what  I "enjoy" of doing it even today.


we are back into this 110% nonsense, there no science that's says putting max effort in now ( thats 100% in case you are confused)will mean you can't put 100% effort in 30 years from now,


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## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We do each have an absolute limit of what we can do at any given moment, but it is not where we think it is. While I hate the "give 110%" expressions, the idea they are meant to convey is valid. The best example is the 4-minute mile. For many years it was thought to be beyond the physical limits of a human. Then Roger Bannister ran a mile in less than 4 minutes, and suddenly others can, too.
> 
> Of course, even the absolute limit can often be moved (that's why I said "at any given moment"). Right now, there's a limit to what I can lift in a bench press. No matter what someone says or what I do, I won't be able to lift more than that absolute limit today. But that limit can be moved. For me, a bit more shoulder rehab will double what I can lift in the full range; after that, exercising near that limit will allow me to push the limit up.
> 
> ...


Thank you f or your patient replies! Can you explain what you mean please is willpower processes specifically regarding enduring beyond a limit? Is just like a phrase people say or is a technique or techniques to do this?? thank you


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## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> For me, no it would not be a 166% to do more than my limit. That is the thing about these "limits" that people put on themselves, it is more of what they think they can do instead of just doing it. So, going off the push up example, if I try to increase my 100% = 12 pushups, but the "inner voice", coach, ect is calling me to do more then one of two things is going to happen. Either you will reach your "100%", or  what your coaches/ect 100% is. That is why I don't like to do training alone, because what I think to be my 100% could just be  20% of what I can actually do.
> 
> So, back to the push up example. If my 100% =12, yet a  external circumstance has me do > 12, then that is a 100% of what I can do. I made my "limit" too small, and having that extra perspective can help make clear what is 100% and what is <100%. My goal was 12, yet I made my goal to small.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand thank you.. so if I have this correct in this case the limit was actually >12 only because 12 had been incorrectly assessed as 100% yes? I get that and also it is merely an example of linear gains yes.. Tell me when your body say I cannot do no more reps or lift no heavier kg/lbs or whatever I am at my 100%.. you can override this or not? like if you have to? what I mean is like what feel like an absolute physical limit is that pure physiology or is that pure mental feeling or some combination? how is it overcome? thank you


----------



## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You train untill failure. Be it mental failure or physical. It is body building 101 or boot camp 101. Or fight camp 101.
> 
> And your failure point keeps getting further away.
> 
> ...


You have clarified this a deal thank you.. They are generally two separate thing physical and mental limit with out interplay between? Are either set in stone at any given time? thank you!


----------



## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> we are back into this 110% nonsense, there no science that's says putting max effort in now ( thats 100% in case you are confused)will mean you can't put 100% effort in 30 years from now,


I have a question if it is ok and sound like you could answer from experience maybe.. so if a person is accustom to pushing the limit like all the time, what are the chances their effort become less effective against continued further pushes of that limit? I mean like the more they push the limit, the harder it feels the wall they are hitting? Not sure if I am clear enough in that question.. hope so  Thank you


----------



## Jenna (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's always better to reserve 20% of your energy to handle something unexpected. You may need to get into a street fight the moment that you finished your workout in your gym. It will be bad that you are so exhausted that you can't even defend yourself.


In this kind of situation, if you really were exhausted from sufficiently hard training at maximum 100% you would still be able to find resource to defend? would that be true? You would not have left your self totally helpless right? Where did that extra resource come from? or it is just normal fight/flight/freeze hormone response? thank you


----------



## Martial_Kumite (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Yes I understand thank you.. so if I have this correct in this case the limit was actually >12 only because 12 had been incorrectly assessed as 100% yes? I get that and also it is merely an example of linear gains yes.. Tell me when your body say I cannot do no more reps or lift no heavier kg/lbs or whatever I am at my 100%.. you can override this or not? like if you have to? what I mean is like what feel like an absolute physical limit is that pure physiology or is that pure mental feeling or some combination? how is it overcome? thank you




Well, If I had to depends on the situation. Adrenaline con boost what a person can do depending on if they decide to fight or flight. Some times its voluntary, some times its not. It depends on the situation. But that is life and death type stuff.

I like to think that a smaller version of this is used when assessing a limit. You can either stop, or you can push for one more. There are pros and cons for both cases, but really it depends on what you want to achieve and how determined you are to reach it. The mind, in many cases, will give up before the body dose. This is where a partner, coach, ect can come in handy. They can give you that push that you need to increase your 100%.
So, yes a large amount  of it is mental. How determined you are, what you think is 100%, how you persive a situation, and how you view adversity, can effect what 100% can be.  

I can not tell you a definite way to over come limits, due to mentality being diffrent per individual. How I do it is I go by my feelings, and my perceived limits. I inch worm it. Little by little. Getting to where something hard become the norm, then adding a little more. Adversity becomes a challenge. I have moments where I need motivation, which is why I prefer to train with partners. It takes time, it takes patience, but it is better than staying at a fake 100%. 

Hope this helps.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> I have a question if it is ok and sound like you could answer from experience maybe.. so if a person is accustom to pushing the limit like all the time, what are the chances their effort become less effective against continued further pushes of that limit? I mean like the more they push the limit, the harder it feels the wall they are hitting? Not sure if I am clear enough in that question.. hope so  Thank you


if they keep doing the same exercises, then the effectiveness of the exercise to cause body adaptations drops off after about 12/16 weeks

. So if your after a certain goal, say the ability to run one lap of a track very fast, your progress after that point is very very slow, if at all.if what your doing is running one lap of the track as fast as you can

, if your after a less specific fitness goal, say being stronger, you need to change your exercises regime fundamental, every 3months or so, so that they again challenge both the muscle and the nervous system to cause adaptations


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 13, 2017)

The military special forces deal with the concept of limits constantly.  The fact is that you will meet the psychological limits of your will long before the limits of the body.
I am not sure but i think it was Bud Day but there is the story of being a POW and was told to hang from a pull up bar and told when he falls off he will be executed. He hung for 3 days before his captors got frustrated and put him back in his cell.
The human muscle can contract strong enough to pull itself off of the bone.  Limitations are mostly mental. The limits of the body is the point of damage and shut down.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That depends what you're trying to do. For developing strength, 80% will get you there, but 100% at regular intervals will lead to faster development. If we're talking about general training, your statement is absolutely correct. If I go with everything I have during a training session, ending completely wiped out and muscles feeling like jelly, I need some time to recover from that before I can go at any intensity again. If I want to train the next day with any intensity, I need to hold some reserve so I can recover quickly enough.


these % are confusing the issue, . You don't have to lift at a hundreds % of your max, 80% or less of your max is great, but you do have to lift at 100% of your effort. So in round figures, 80%of your one rep max is about 10 reps, or 5 reps very quickly or 5reps very slowly. You mucles doesn't know the difference, only that the nervous system is being overloaded and causing adaptation.
if you mean your lifting 80% of you max at 80% of your effort, your not going anywhere fast


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> The military special forces deal with the concept of limits constantly.  The fact is that you will meet the psychological limits of your will long before the limits of the body.
> I am not sure but i think it was Bud Day but there is the story of being a POW and was told to hang from a pull up bar and told when he falls off he will be executed. He hung for 3 days before his captors got frustrated and put him back in his cell.
> The human muscle can contract strong enough to pull itself off of the bone.  Limitations are mostly mental. The limits of the body is the point of damage and shut down.


 3DAYS !!! that's nonsense, have you a source for that,


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> but push ups arnt a good choice as an example of improved athletic performance, . This takes us into the thorny issue of how we measure improvements and if we are using a realistic measure of real word performance,,,
> when you start of push up are hard and you are building maximal strengh, but as your body adapts push up go from a strengh exercise to an endurance exercises, to a light endurance exercise, once beyond a certain point say 40, then you can pick any number you want as a target and get there, 100,200,300? and doing them just gets easier and easier, people who continue to develop their push up total may think this is making them fitter, but really its making very very little difference to their fitness development.
> 
> they are just getting better and better at doing push ups, which is only useful if your doing cross fit competition or just showing off, it has very limited cross over to Ma
> ...



I will let mike Tyson know.


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> You have clarified this a deal thank you.. They are generally two separate thing physical and mental limit with out interplay between? Are either set in stone at any given time? thank you!



Mental and physical are integrated. 

If I had my computer I would throw in an embrace the grind motivational video about now.


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I will let mike Tyson know.



I train with some pretty good and knowledgeable fitness guys and some elite athletes.

And there is two ideas at work. One is the science with all the Latin technicalities . And the other is if it is hard. Then you are getting benefit out of it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> In this kind of situation, if you really were exhausted from sufficiently hard training at maximum 100% you would still be able to find resource to defend? would that be true? You would not have left your self totally helpless right? Where did that extra resource come from? or it is just normal fight/flight/freeze hormone response? thank you


- Western method may be "no pain, no gain".
- Eastern method is always "You train because you like to do, and not because you have to do."

Try to reserve 20% energy for unexpected situation is always a good strategy no matter what MA system that you may train.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I train with some pretty good and knowledgeable fitness guys and some elite athletes.
> 
> And there is two ideas at work. One is the science with all the Latin technicalities . And the other is if it is hard. Then you are getting benefit out of it.


well there both right, it has to be difficult, no point phoning in an 80% session and it needs to be focused on some performance issue you wish to improve, or you are spending time and effort improving something that is of little use to you


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Western method may be "no pain, no gain".
> - Eastern method is always "You train because you like to do, and not because you have to do."
> 
> Try to reserve 20% energy for unexpected situation is always a good strategy no matter what MA system that you may train.


but that's just the same only putting 80% effort in to your development, that sound more like an excuse for cant be bothered rather than eastern teaching .

no pain no gain isn't the right way, but nether is just going through the motions


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you keep lifting at 80% of max, you will soon find that Is your new max, especially at your age


Demonstrably not true.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Demonstrably not true.


what you don't loose strength if you don't use it, ? I think you'll find that is so!. It may take a month or three, but you most certainly will


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 13, 2017)

My guess is that there is no way to really train at 100%.  If it's like everything else in life our maximum rises and falls.  You can always test  it out.  Run 100 yards as fast as you can. Keep this up for 3 months to a year.  Do you see improvement in your speed?  If so then 3 months or a year ago really wasn't "100%"  It was just 100% based on the condition you were in at that time.   If you don't see improvement within 3 months to a year then try again but this time push your body until it literally almost stops operating normally (not recommended) did you go faster?  If not then more than likely you are at 100% being that your speed didn't change within a year of training.   You will also probably have a good understanding that going at 100% isn't all that healthy.

I think of the body like the RPM gauge of a car.  You can run the car into the red and that will be 100% RPM for that gear, but  the real question is.  Do you really get any benefit for doing so and what happens when you actually reach 100% does your body fail?


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My guess is that there is no way to really train at 100%.  If it's like everything else in life our maximum rises and falls.  You can always test  it out.  Run 100 yards as fast as you can. Keep this up for 3 months to a year.  Do you see improvement in your speed?  If so then 3 months or a year ago really wasn't "100%"  It was just 100% based on the condition you were in at that time.   If you don't see improvement within 3 months to a year then try again but this time push your body until it literally almost stops operating normally (not recommended) did you go faster?  If not then more than likely you are at 100% being that your speed didn't change within a year of training.   You will also probably have a good understanding that going at 100% isn't all that healthy.
> 
> I think of the body like the RPM gauge of a car.  You can run the car into the red and that will be 100% RPM for that gear, but  the real question is.  Do you really get any benefit for doing so and what happens when you actually reach 100% does your body fail?


the discussion is about putting in 100% effort, that gives you an increase in performance, be that in running or lifting or jumping,


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you keep lifting at 80% of max, you will soon find that Is your new max, especially at your age


When the water has filled the hole, it will flow out. When your body is ready, your body will tell yourself to

- add more weight on your weight training.
- do more reps on your weight training.
- run faster on your spring.
- run longer for your distance.

When your body is not ready and you try to push yourself, there is a possibility that you may quit. That won't be good. For health, to eat 80% full is much better than to eat 100% full.


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> well there both right, it has to be difficult, no point phoning in an 80% session and it needs to be focused on some performance issue you wish to improve, or you are spending time and effort improving something that is of little use to you



They are the same guy. That is the point.


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## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When the water has filled the hole, it will flow out. When your body is ready, your body will tell yourself to
> 
> - add more weight on your weight training.
> - do more reps on your weight training.
> ...


that's just nonsense wrapped as some sort of philosophy,all improvement requires dedication and,discipline, and an ability to push yourself if you haven't got that you are destined to life a sub max performance . The world is full of fat unfit people waiting for their legs to tell them to run


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you f or your patient replies! Can you explain what you mean please is willpower processes specifically regarding enduring beyond a limit? Is just like a phrase people say or is a technique or techniques to do this?? thank you


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's just nonsense wrapped as some sort of philosophy,all improvement requires dedication and,discipline, and an ability to push yourself if you haven't got that you are destined to life a sub max performance . The world is full of fat unfit people waiting for their legs to tell them to run


If you are a tennis player, do you play tennis because your dedication and discipline, or because your interest?

- I don't eat meat because I don't like meat.
- I eat sea food because I like sea food.
- I run because I like running.
- I lift weight because I like to feel my muscle.

I don't depend on my dedication and discipline. I only depend on my personal interest. In the past many years, I have always do my weight training and long distance running. I do intend to keep doing it for the rest of my life.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> the discussion is about putting in 100% effort, that gives you an increase in performance, be that in running or lifting or jumping,


 yea that's what I'm talking about as well. 100% effort.  If you aren't putting in 100% effort then are you really running at 100%?   In terms of running I've seen people put in 100% effort and when they got to the finished line and collapsed or threw up because they pushed their body too far.  For me personally, I've never ran at 100% and I have never give 100% effort.  I look at what it actually takes to give 100% effort and what it does to the body. Our bodies have limits and if we push our bodies too hard (the effort that you speak of) then there's no guarantee your body will fail similar to how runners who give 100% can no longer stand up after crossing the finish line.   To give 100% is no small matter and those who I've seen do it often do.   People may give 100% of what they set aside to perform the activity.  For example, if someone trains at 80% then they have give all of that 80% and nothing less, the other 20% may be reserved for being able walk and stand up after training.   Giving only 80% of effort for training is still good because the intensity that we go at is what matters.

80% training effort for me may be 100% training effort to someone who isn't in good shape.  As my body gets stronger I can increase the intensity of my effort without increasing the percentage of my effort.  Hopfeully that clears it up a little about my perspective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've never ran at 100% .


When you have to put grease between your legs, you have over done it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you f or your patient replies! Can you explain what you mean please is willpower processes specifically regarding enduring beyond a limit? Is just like a phrase people say or is a technique or techniques to do this?? thank you


When I used that phrase, I was referring to the psychological processes we call "willpower". As others have pointed out, we have mental limits that are different from our physical limits. When I go for a run, my mind says "this is too hard" long before my body runs out of energy. Willpower is our ability to ignore or override our instinctive desires (in this case, to quit).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> these % are confusing the issue, . You don't have to lift at a hundreds % of your max, 80% or less of your max is great, but you do have to lift at 100% of your effort. So in round figures, 80%of your one rep max is about 10 reps, or 5 reps very quickly or 5reps very slowly. You mucles doesn't know the difference, only that the nervous system is being overloaded and causing adaptation.
> if you mean your lifting 80% of you max at 80% of your effort, your not going anywhere fast


Yes, that was exactly my point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 13, 2017)

jobo said:


> what you don't loose strength if you don't use it, ? I think you'll find that is so!. It may take a month or three, but you most certainly will


That lifting 80% of your max will reduce your max.


----------



## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are a tennis player, do you play tennis because your dedication and discipline, or because your interest?
> 
> - I don't eat meat because I don't like meat.
> - I eat sea food because I like sea food.
> ...


i like smoking and whisky and eating kebabs and sitting on the,couch eating sweets and losing in bed till dinner time, But i don't as i have,discipline, 

just doing what you like isn't the way to success, unless you are very strange


----------



## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That lifting 80% of your max will reduce your max.


depends how many times you lift it?


----------



## jobo (Aug 13, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> yea that's what I'm talking about as well. 100% effort.  If you aren't putting in 100% effort then are you really running at 100%?   In terms of running I've seen people put in 100% effort and when they got to the finished line and collapsed or threw up because they pushed their body too far.  For me personally, I've never ran at 100% and I have never give 100% effort.  I look at what it actually takes to give 100% effort and what it does to the body. Our bodies have limits and if we push our bodies too hard (the effort that you speak of) then there's no guarantee your body will fail similar to how runners who give 100% can no longer stand up after crossing the finish line.   To give 100% is no small matter and those who I've seen do it often do.   People may give 100% of what they set aside to perform the activity.  For example, if someone trains at 80% then they have give all of that 80% and nothing less, the other 20% may be reserved for being able walk and stand up after training.   Giving only 80% of effort for training is still good because the intensity that we go at is what matters.
> 
> 80% training effort for me may be 100% training effort to someone who isn't in good shape.  As my body gets stronger I can increase the intensity of my effort without increasing the percentage of my effort.  Hopfeully that clears it up a little about my perspective.


how do you know what is 80% of max effort if you have never given 100%? It could be only 60% your doing

you don't have to run so far you collapse, you do have to run so fast you can't run any faster


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 14, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you have to put grease between your legs, you have over done it.


  That's a lot of friction if you need that lol  good one. The closest I've gotten to that was when I was in high school running training for Cross Country Races (3.5 miles)  For training we would run 5 to 10 miles, one day it was really hot and my sweat started to dry which meant that salt was the only thing left behind. The salt that was left behind literally started cutting me between my legs like tiny saws.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> how do you know what is 80% of max effort if you have never given 100%? It could be only 60% your doing
> 
> you don't have to run so far you collapse, you do have to run so fast you can't run any faster


I knew because anything close to 100% makes me feel like crap. It doesn't make me feel like I had a good workout. It doesn't make me feel tough.  It makes me feel like my body is trying to literally stop functioning so I won't continue. The only difference between me and some other runners, I never ran my body to the point where my body failed and I ended up on the ground because my body has ceased to function. Maybe if I explain it as weight lifting bench press.  How do you know if you give 100% effort? It's when you can only lift the weight once but not high enough to put the weight back on the rack. You feel your muscles fail and that weight slowly starts to go down even though you are pushing as hard as you can.  If you get close to experiencing anything like these people then you know you are close to 100%

This is what 100% effort in running looks like. Stuff stops working.










This is what 100% effort looks like for weight lift.  He gave all of his effort and all of his strength then his muscles failed.


----------



## Jenna (Aug 14, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Well, If I had to depends on the situation. Adrenaline con boost what a person can do depending on if they decide to fight or flight. Some times its voluntary, some times its not. It depends on the situation. But that is life and death type stuff.
> 
> I like to think that a smaller version of this is used when assessing a limit. You can either stop, or you can push for one more. There are pros and cons for both cases, but really it depends on what you want to achieve and how determined you are to reach it. The mind, in many cases, will give up before the body dose. This is where a partner, coach, ect can come in handy. They can give you that push that you need to increase your 100%.
> So, yes a large amount  of it is mental. How determined you are, what you think is 100%, how you persive a situation, and how you view adversity, can effect what 100% can be.
> ...


Thank you again, yes that help too  Say you were training with a partner to see who could push the most (what ever that might be from scoring pts to doing reps or what ever) only say it was not friendly rivalry, from where does your motivation to push past come when your partner is not help rather would seek to win over you? xo


----------



## Jenna (Aug 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> if they keep doing the same exercises, then the effectiveness of the exercise to cause body adaptations drops off after about 12/16 weeks
> 
> . So if your after a certain goal, say the ability to run one lap of a track very fast, your progress after that point is very very slow, if at all.if what your doing is running one lap of the track as fast as you can
> 
> , if your after a less specific fitness goal, say being stronger, you need to change your exercises regime fundamental, every 3months or so, so that they again challenge both the muscle and the nervous system to cause adaptations


When you feel pain in your training do you ever continue and not stop? Say it is a goal you are after and you feel pain.. If so, what is the process of toleration for you?  thank you


----------



## Jenna (Aug 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> The military special forces deal with the concept of limits constantly.  The fact is that you will meet the psychological limits of your will long before the limits of the body.
> I am not sure but i think it was Bud Day but there is the story of being a POW and was told to hang from a pull up bar and told when he falls off he will be executed. He hung for 3 days before his captors got frustrated and put him back in his cell.
> The human muscle can contract strong enough to pull itself off of the bone.  Limitations are mostly mental. The limits of the body is the point of damage and shut down.


That is quite extraordinary ability.. So what you depict as point of damage and shut down then that is the actual 100% physical limit or point that force the organism (body) to self-protect yes? Technique though can moderate this point like applied muscle tension to elevate bp before point of syncope only this only work all other thing being in good working order.. You have experience with this? working at or to extend physiological limit? you know technique for this? thank you x


----------



## jobo (Aug 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you feel pain in your training do you ever continue and not stop? Say it is a goal you are after and you feel pain.. If so, what is the process of toleration for you?  thank you


----------



## jobo (Aug 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I knew because anything close to 100% makes me feel like crap. It doesn't make me feel like I had a good workout. It doesn't make me feel tough.  It makes me feel like my body is trying to literally stop functioning so I won't continue. The only difference between me and some other runners, I never ran my body to the point where my body failed and I ended up on the ground because my body has ceased to function. Maybe if I explain it as weight lifting bench press.  How do you know if you give 100% effort? It's when you can only lift the weight once but not high enough to put the weight back on the rack. You feel your muscles fail and that weight slowly starts to go down even though you are pushing as hard as you can.  If you get close to experiencing anything like these people then you know you are close to 100%
> 
> This is what 100% effort in running looks like. Stuff stops working.
> 
> ...


no that's what lifting a,silly big weight ( ego lifting)with out a spotter and decent equipment looks like.


----------



## jobo (Aug 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you feel pain in your training do you ever continue and not stop? Say it is a goal you are after and you feel pain.. If so, what is the process of toleration for you?  thank you


pain real stabbing pain is bad, a high degree of discomfort is,good, people seem to confuse the two


----------



## drop bear (Aug 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you feel pain in your training do you ever continue and not stop? Say it is a goal you are after and you feel pain.. If so, what is the process of toleration for you?  thank you



If you want to play around with the idea. do hill sprints. They are a psychological as well as physical nightmare.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> no that's what lifting a,silly big weight ( ego lifting)with out a spotter and decent equipment looks like.


Yeah it's that too. lol.  Not sure why so many do stuff like that.


----------



## jobo (Aug 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah it's that too. lol.  Not sure why so many do stuff like that.


its sort of self selecting only a complete bonzos  on an ego trip would take the trouble to film themselves doing something as mundane as lifting weights, that they then over load themselves and,drop the weight is what happen when bonzos  ego lift


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 14, 2017)

In my experience there are several factors.  If your mind tells you that you have reached your limit, your body will no doubt agree; you will stop.  If you mind tells you that you can continue to push farther, your mind will no doubt tell your body to continue, and it will continue until your body quits.  Regardless, you only know your limit when you reach it, whether it is the mind limit or the body limit.

Either mind or body can have its will in continuation.  When I was in the US Army Airborne, of all the things we did, you were a wimp if you couldn't do a certain amount of pushups, pullb ups, sit ps, or whatever.  You would be ruthlessly trained until you could.  But one thing you could not fail at was running.  The only acceptable way out of a run was to collapse at some point during the run.  And if you collapsed, it better not be fake. 

I once made a run of only about two miles, while still drunk (by no means bragging, just the lifestyle I was into then).  I kept giving myself little goals which would be the point of when I would allow myself to quit.  Except that I never allowed myself to quit, but just gave myself another goal.  At the time and looking back, I have no idea how I did that.  I can tell you it wasn't the booze.  If anything, that held me back.  But mostly it was just the idea that I wasn't going to quit.  In the Airborne, being a quitter was the worst thing you could be accused of.

Was that body or mind?  I don't know.  I suspect hefty helpings of both.  I certainly didn't want to run that far in that condition.  But I even more didn't want to be called a quitter.

One airborne company I was in there was a guy who quit being airborne.  Just one day he decided to quit (I don't know why) and signed the necessary paperwork.  He wasn't the most liked guy, but he was one of us.  And he had friends and they all hung together.  After that day, he didn't have any friends, and spent the next few days while in the company, doing nothing but KP (Kitchen Police).

Was that mind or body?  Our PT wasn't impossible.  Jumping out of airplanes was reasonably safe.  Could he have stayed on airborne status?  I suspect so, but I think his mind told him he had had enough.

I think both the mind and body can be trained to go beyond certain perceived limits.  It may reach a point where progress slows down, especially the body, as there is at some point a limit in the long term.  I also believe in Chi, and its effect in the short term.

@jobo I read the post about three days hanging by your hands and thought it a hard feat.  But the human mind and body can do strange things.  If true, it would just tell me the POW had a strong fear of dying that way.  I have heard of pilots on long missions, who never took their hands off the aircraft's controls.  When the engines were shut down, they were not able to remove their hand(s) from the controls, and had to use their other hand, or if both hands were in that condition, get another crew member to peel their hands off the controls.  As I said, the human mind and body can do strange things.

Sorry for the long post.  But I don't think others who have posted have given the mind and body a fair shake.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> i like smoking and whisky and eating kebabs and sitting on the,couch eating sweets and losing in bed till dinner time, But i don't as i have,discipline,
> 
> just doing what you like isn't the way to success, unless you are very strange


Agreed, though tailoring to use exercises you like more (of similar effectiveness) is likely to reduce the need to use willpower (a finite reserve between sleeps, research suggests)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> depends how many times you lift it?


Yes, for the most part. If I routinely never lift more than 80%, ,that only occasionally, and never more than once at a time, it's unlikely my max stays where it was (and probably no way it goes up). But if I routinely lift 80% - let's say on average once a day - I'm not sure if that allows the muscles to degrade significantly or not. Most people rarely lift anything near their max - rarely lifting more than say 30 lbs. But they can still lift 50 lbs. if they have to, and probably a lot more. Some of that probably has to do with a "natural" floor. So, if someone has been training a lot, they will degrade fast when they stop, going back toward that natural floor. Meanwhile, someone who has trained occasionally and inconsistently will degrade little and slowly when they stop training. There does seem to be a reset of that natural floor over the long term, which confounds the whole thing. People who exercise over long periods of time (years) don't tend to lose all of that benefit, even if they drop to average activity levels for a few years.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a lot of friction if you need that lol  good one. The closest I've gotten to that was when I was in high school running training for Cross Country Races (3.5 miles)  For training we would run 5 to 10 miles, one day it was really hot and my sweat started to dry which meant that salt was the only thing left behind. The salt that was left behind literally started cutting me between my legs like tiny saws.


TMI, bro.


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## jobo (Aug 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, for the most part. If I routinely never lift more than 80%, ,that only occasionally, and never more than once at a time, it's unlikely my max stays where it was (and probably no way it goes up). But if I routinely lift 80% - let's say on average once a day - I'm not sure if that allows the muscles to degrade significantly or not. Most people rarely lift anything near their max - rarely lifting more than say 30 lbs. But they can still lift 50 lbs. if they have to, and probably a lot more. Some of that probably has to do with a "natural" floor. So, if someone has been training a lot, they will degrade fast when they stop, going back toward that natural floor. Meanwhile, someone who has trained occasionally and inconsistently will degrade little and slowly when they stop training. There does seem to be a reset of that natural floor over the long term, which confounds the whole thing. People who exercise over long periods of time (years) don't tend to lose all of that benefit, even if they drop to average activity levels for a few years.


Il try and describe what i mean about 80% and how many reps
, i do an exercise, push ups with my feet high up on a dipping bar, let's say that is,80% of body weight, . I do seven upper half reps, which means no brief moment of rest at the bottom, as the muscle iis under max tension, then seven lower half reps, which mean no relaxing at all as my nose hits the ground first, then 7 full reps, (i general get to six before failure and falling on my nose, then straight after, i do a minute of triceps extensions against the,dip bar.

then into a normal push up position( say 65% of BW) and repeat the 3x7 reps. Then another min of tricept extensions abit closer now.

then the push ups,3x7 this time off my knees, 25%BW, then another min of triceps, then fall over.
that 80% of Bw, but 100% effort


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## Martial_Kumite (Aug 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you again, yes that help too  Say you were training with a partner to see who could push the most (what ever that might be from scoring pts to doing reps or what ever) only say it was not friendly rivalry, from where does your motivation to push past come when your partner is not help rather would seek to win over you? xo




Sorryfor the late replie.  If I get into a rivilry with somone who simply seeks to hold some sort of accomplish ment over me, personaly I get angry, which most people will say is not good to do. But, I have managed to use that negitive energy for a positive results. I become more determined to push my limit and expand my 100%, even if it is just a little. 

So, even if a partner is being negitive, they can still be helping motivate you to push past thier expectations, and expand 100%. It is a lot harder to do though.

Hoped this helps.


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