# Rokas Responds on Wing Chun Challenge...



## geezer (Apr 21, 2021)

The "Martial Arts Journey" guy,* Rokas* put out a challenge to practitioners of martial arts he deemed "ineffective" asking that they send him videos to show that their arts actually can work against live, resisting opponents. He included WC in the list of dubious arts and apparently got a big reaction from the WC community. Check the link below for YouTube video in response. Watch it and post your thoughts!


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## geezer (Apr 21, 2021)

geezer said:


> The "Martial Arts Journey" guy,* Rokas* put out a challenge to practitioners of martial arts he deemed "ineffective" asking that they send him videos to show that their arts actually can work against live, resisting opponents. He included WC in the list of dubious arts and apparently got a big reaction from the WC community. Check the link below for YouTube video in response. Watch it and post your thoughts!



...BTW bonus points if you can find my remarks in the YouTube comments for this video (hint: I'm VTSifu Steve).


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2021)

This is how you build a claim with evidence.


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## Martial D (Apr 22, 2021)

As I've always maintained..wing chun can be useful once you understand fighting..ie distance, timing and angles.

If you can find a school that trains with aliveness(real resistance rather than cooperative excersize/forms/chi sau only) you might just learn to fight.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 22, 2021)

I guess my first thought is, who is this Rokas fellow, and why should anyone care what he thinks?


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## Shatteredzen (Apr 22, 2021)

I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.

 I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.

I would still like to see a much more positive community review of what's out there, because even when you do it honestly like he has here, it encourages that toxic style versus style stuff. If we can get the overall community within martial arts to agree on the need for these kinds of reforms, I think we will see a big re-discovery/renaissance in martial arts as a whole. Something similar happened with HEMA and the western martial arts and its led to not only a better historical picture of what exists and has existed but a community much more open to looking for what works. HEMA and the Western martial arts have issues like anything, but I can watch "The King" on netflix and see their fight choreography is loads better than braveheart or anything else was years ago, because now there is real expertise out there in some of those forgotten western disciplines and the cinematic depiction much more closely resembles some of those old fight books.

  Bujinkan is facing a sea change now that Antony Cumins is translating the actual Ninja scrolls and clarifying the reality of "ninja" martial arts. It's maybe bad for Bujinkan but its better for everyone who wants historical and maybe more functional "Ninpo". I would like to see more of this kind of stuff with Aikido and maybe more emphasis on checking Daito Ryu/ Judo and pre WW2 Aikido as well as integrating Aikido into a more mixed or practical style with these methods.

Here's the video I was talking about, its not perfect but its a guy here in the states trying to develop/train/explore using the Aikido fundamentals in a broader and more practical context.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess my first thought is, who is this Rokas fellow, and why should anyone care what he thinks?



It is a good way to descern truth from fiction.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 22, 2021)

I hate how clickbaity he makes some of the videos, like jesus, the title box is where you put the title not in the thumbnail.


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## jobo (Apr 22, 2021)

Rat said:


> I hate how clickbaity he makes some of the videos, like jesus, the title box is where you put the title not in the thumbnail.


you tube is click bait, it the nature of monetised videos, that you receive income from clicks,

that's why you need to be careful using them as a referance source as being fair and or honest may not pay as well


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.
> 
> ...



I have a wing chun forum of Facebook and there are two camps. Some who are interested in practicality and some who pretend to be. 

So it is chi sau logic and ip man stories vs live testing.


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## Graywalker (Apr 22, 2021)

The guy must have trained in every style, how can anyone take these type of jokers serious.


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## Martial D (Apr 22, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess my first thought is, who is this Rokas fellow, and why should anyone care what he thinks?


He's a young lad that had the courage to put his black belt level aikido training through rigorous pressure testing without one of the usual two obvious agendas you normally see(trying to prove it works or that it's garbage)

The fact that it didn't work at all does tend to upset some people but that's not really his fault.


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## Martial D (Apr 22, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I think this was a fairer video/challenge than what he gave Aikido originally in that wrist lock video. The root of his argument is a lot of what's wrong with MANY schools and styles and I agree with his core argument here of the need to pressure test and to train against resistance. I'm glad to see he got some good responses, also, thanks to the OP, I found a really good set of Aikido videos that were posted in the comments section but have not been evaluated by Rokas yet thanks to your link, which is good discussion for the Aikido thread we have going in the general forum.
> 
> I'm honestly surprised to see him call out wing chun specifically, in my limited experience with it it always struck me as the most practical and easily demonstrable form of Kung Fu. I had a tailor from Hong Kong many years ago who taught me chain punching and the rolling hands, I still use both and train both and would love to learn more were a teacher available. The problem with only a limited number of schools training for realism is something I have observed throughout Chinese martial arts but also throughout most other systems. Aikido is perhaps the worst about this, which makes me sad, I really think there's not even a 1% margin of schools outside Japan that teach it in a useful way and its very subject to ******** artists. I think the numbers go up in Japan but with traditional Japanese budo, you still need to take the time to learn to apply things practically.
> 
> ...


I spent ten years in wing chun, and was fortunate enough to have a sifu that pressure tested. The vast majority do not.

Even with this background Thai boxing training forced me to massively adapt much of it and discard entirely even more to be able to compete with Thai boxers when I changed schools(before MMA was a thing)


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## geezer (Apr 22, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> The guy must have trained in every style, how can anyone take these type of jokers serious.



The guy? Who are you talking about? Rokas ...or someone else? What is your point?


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## Graywalker (Apr 23, 2021)

geezer said:


> The guy? Who are you talking about? Rokas ...or someone else? What is your point?


Not sure I understand your question, did you forget your original post. 

My point is, why act as if you have experience with every style...oh and so there is no confusion.. I am using the word "you" in general, not you specifically.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2021)

I watched the video wednesday so it's entirely possible I forgot something...but where did he claim to have experience with every style? I thought he was pretty upfront that he _didn't_ have experience with kung fu, and his biases got challenged by the responses.


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## Hanzou (Apr 23, 2021)

Kudos to the WC community for stepping up.


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## geezer (Apr 23, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Not sure I understand your question, did you forget your original post.
> My point is, why act as if you have *experience with every style*...oh and so there is no confusion.. I am using the word "you" in general, not you specifically.



Yes, there _does _seem to be some confusion _on your part_, and nothing to do with your use of the second person ("you") in the general sense. Please read post #16 above by MTW for clarification. He points out that Rokas made no claim to have knowledge of every style.

BTW I think you may have him (Rokas) confused with "that other guy" i.e. some other YouTube commentator. ....Maybe that bearded idiot who trashes all TMA and started his own style of MMA-TKD (which looks pretty pathetic). Honestly, I don't remember his name ...and don't really care to!


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## drop bear (Apr 23, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Kudos to the WC community for stepping up.



They have been quietly working pretty hard at it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> They have been quietly working pretty hard at it.



The anecdotes about stopping bank robbers is running dry in the modern world.  

to be fair, if you train and actually try to pull off the moves taught to you and are taught how to do them, you learn and get experience in doing them.     Im sure i have ranted about why would you teach someone kata, explain its to practise fighting then moan when someone tries to do it in sparring?  or you not teach them how to do what you teach in Kata before teaching it, or as you taught it.            Like doesnt karate do bunkai of the form/s for the form/s they learnt that day?         So in other words, you learn the practical application of Kata in karate as you learn the kata, backed by basics practise.


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## Graywalker (Apr 24, 2021)

geezer said:


> Yes, there _does _seem to be some confusion _on your part_, and nothing to do with your use of the second person ("you") in the general sense. Please read post #16 above by MTW for clarification. He points out that Rokas made no claim to have knowledge of every style.
> 
> BTW I think you may have him (Rokas) confused with "that other guy" i.e. some other YouTube commentator. ....Maybe that bearded idiot who trashes all TMA and started his own style of MMA-TKD (which looks pretty pathetic). Honestly, I don't remember his name ...and don't really care to!


Ah...you are correct, my confusion is that of the other guy. And I agree, not a fan of the other guy.


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## geezer (Apr 24, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Ah...you are correct, my confusion is that of the other guy. And I agree, not a fan of the other guy.



Me neither!


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

So any way. Things like this will works really well to increase the depth of knowledge of wing chun.

Wing Chun Lab - Wing Chun MD

So there are definitely chunners working on providing validation to their art.

Even more clever a paid spar squad.


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## Jaz (Apr 25, 2021)

I actually offered to take Rokas on in a challenge match, to see if I could pit Wing Chun against him.  I was willing to travel to Lithuania.  Rokas got back to me, and said that he would look into coming to the UK, so that we could arrange things.  Unfortunately, it looks like he decided that it was only video evidence that he was looking for...not to take anyone on in a match.  I posted my challenge to him on my youtube channel and emailed his that I had done so.  Hopefully, I can sort out some rounds of sparring with him instead,  At least, from the video evidence he received, he seems to have gained a respect for Wing Chun. I would've loved a scrap though!!!! Here;s the link to my challenge video, if you wanna see it:


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Jaz said:


> I actually offered to take Rokas on in a challenge match, to see if I could pit Wing Chun against him.  I was willing to travel to Lithuania.  Rokas got back to me, and said that he would look into coming to the UK, so that we could arrange things.  Unfortunately, it looks like he decided that it was only video evidence that he was looking for...not to take anyone on in a match.  I posted my challenge to him on my youtube channel and emailed his that I had done so.  Hopefully, I can sort out some rounds of sparring with him instead,  At least, from the video evidence he received, he seems to have gained a respect for Wing Chun. I would've loved a scrap though!!!! Here;s the link to my challenge video, if you wanna see it:



Curious. Why did you pick Rokus to challenge out of all the MMAers out there that you potentially could be challenging.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Jaz said:


> I actually offered to take Rokas on in a challenge match, to see if I could pit Wing Chun against him.  I was willing to travel to Lithuania.  Rokas got back to me, and said that he would look into coming to the UK, so that we could arrange things.  Unfortunately, it looks like he decided that it was only video evidence that he was looking for...not to take anyone on in a match.  I posted my challenge to him on my youtube channel and emailed his that I had done so.  Hopefully, I can sort out some rounds of sparring with him instead,  At least, from the video evidence he received, he seems to have gained a respect for Wing Chun. I would've loved a scrap though!!!! Here;s the link to my challenge video, if you wanna see it:



Hopefully he accepts. It would be very interesting to watch.


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## Jaz (Apr 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Curious. Why did you pick Rokus to challenge out of all the MMAers out there that you potentially could be challenging.



When I saw Rokas' challenge video, I just thought it would be a great idea. I'm not a professional fighter and neither is Rokas. Plus, he seems like a nice guy. He just wants to find out the answers to the questions he's got about the martial arts. I've got my own questions and finding things out through a challenge match, with a like minded person seemed like a good idea. I know that he's not going to be rude about it and bad mouth me, or I him. Plus, as you can see, I'm no 20 year old . So, I don't know if it's a good idea to challenge every MMA fighter out there... especially if they are a pro!!! I'd just get demolished, no matter how good at Wing Chun I think I am.


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## drop bear (Apr 26, 2021)

Jaz said:


> When I saw Rokas' challenge video, I just thought it would be a great idea. I'm not a professional fighter and neither is Rokas. Plus, he seems like a nice guy. He just wants to find out the answers to the questions he's got about the martial arts. I've got my own questions and finding things out through a challenge match, with a like minded person seemed like a good idea. I know that he's not going to be rude about it and bad mouth me, or I him. Plus, as you can see, I'm no 20 year old . So, I don't know if it's a good idea to challenge every MMA fighter out there... especially if they are a pro!!! I'd just get demolished, no matter how good at Wing Chun I think I am.



Are you two even vaguely the same weight?


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## Jaz (Apr 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Are you two even vaguely the same weight?


I'm not sure about that. If we meet up to just spar, that'll be fine.  We're not gonna go tear each other into pieces.  Before the whole COVID-19 restricted training, I was regularly sparring guys of all different weights, in BJJ and MMA. The bigger guys don't go full out to smash the smaller guys, they try to rely on being technical.


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## geezer (Apr 28, 2021)

Jaz said:


> I'm not sure about that. If we meet up to just spar, that'll be fine.  We're not gonna go tear each other into pieces.  Before the whole COVID-19 restricted training, I was regularly sparring guys of all different weights, in BJJ and MMA. The bigger guys don't go full out to smash the smaller guys, they try to rely on being technical.



_Jaz-_ Good on you for extending yourself like this. And you know, it doesn't have to be a formal fight. Just some good sparring rounds where you go at at it hard and try your stuff out, then get together and discuss what worked and what didn't. I get the feeling that Rokas would be very amenable to this kind of "exploration". He comes across as more curious than dogmatic. If size, reach or weight are a major factor in the outcome, you can just take that into account when you do your analysis. Hope you can make this happen!


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## Jaz (Apr 28, 2021)

geezer said:


> _Jaz-_ Good on you for extending yourself like this. And you know, it doesn't have to be a formal fight. Just some good sparring rounds where you go at at it hard and try your stuff out, then get together and discuss what worked and what didn't. I get the feeling that Rokas would be very amenable to this kind of "exploration". He comes across as more curious than dogmatic. If size, reach or weight are a major factor in the outcome, you can just take that into account when you do your analysis. Hope you can make this happen!


Cheers for that! Yeah, I get the same feeling that Rokas would be up for sparring rather than a formal fight.  It would be great, especially going over what worked and what didn't etc.  I'll let you know as soon as he gets back to me.  Thanks again!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2021)

Jaz said:


> Cheers for that! Yeah, I get the same feeling that Rokas would be up for sparring rather than a formal fight.  It would be great, especially going over what worked and what didn't etc.  I'll let you know as soon as he gets back to me.  Thanks again!!!


You can still learn things through sparring. No need to crack head open. If you are good in Wing Chun the it should be evident even if you aren't going full blast.   Sort of like when you spar against someone of a higher skill level. It doesn't take much to realize that the person has skills.


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## MadMartigan (May 2, 2021)

I have only limited wing chun experience (6 months of 1st form). The school I trained with was a very pressure testing school... to the point that even chi sau had a great deal of realism. (I moved away, and was unable to keep going).

I would suggest that the video's comments regarding chi sau being intense but not sparring were based on an incomplete understanding of what is being done.

What I saw the senior students doing during chi sau was a constant state of forward energy. While to someone who had not experienced this feeling it may look like they are blocking the air... when trained the way these guys were doing it; it is anything but. That constant forward energy meant that, the second a weakness was found in the opponent's guard; the attack would press forward hard and fast. (Very much mimicking the fast bursts that make up real violence... not sport).

Obviously it sounds like this group was a minority in how things are commonly done. I can only say that my 20+ years of MA experience and learning was impressed.


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 19, 2021)

The guy is a young man that found his training incomplete. It happens in every style instead of completing his training himself he decided to go on the great explore. There used to be a saying ill teach you one half and you can complete the other side. This process probably wasn't explained to him. However he has credibly called out people to examine there martial art as so called fake or not because of weather or not it is applicable based on being complete. Because he didn't understand completing his martial arts experience. Alot of people have offered constructive criticism to help him grow on YouTube because they have noticed this. His feed is called martial arts journey and at some point he is on a journey to complete his martial arts training. YouTube itself is a big board for martial artists as it was the first service to offer a video streaming service with a open forum so people could put content like forms two person sets training mods etc. And have dialog with the person who is doing them. It also has a segment where you don't have to be an expert to be an influential person.  As for skipping out on his original question and just assuming that others had not done the work to make there art useful was probably misguided.  But hey it got alot of people flustered.


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## Graywalker (May 19, 2021)

geezer said:


> The guy? Who are you talking about? Rokas ...or someone else? What is your point?


Pay attention to the OP, it helps a person to understand conversation.

But yes, for those in the back, I am talking about the Rojas fellow.


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## geezer (May 19, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Pay attention to the OP, it helps a person to understand conversation.
> But yes, for those in the back, I am talking about the Rojas fellow.


By the time we've gotten down to the bottom of page two in a thread like this, a lot of people have been referenced, so don't be affronted when I ask you to clarify ...and FWIW the man's name is_ Rokas_, not Rojas.


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## Graywalker (May 19, 2021)

geezer said:


> By the time we've gotten down to the bottom of page two in a thread like this, a lot of people have been referenced, so don't be affronted when I ask you to clarify ...and FWIW the man's name is_ Rokas_, not Rojas.
> 
> 
> geezer said:
> ...


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## Shakya (Jun 13, 2021)

D Hall said:


> That constant forward energy meant that, the second a weakness was found in the opponent's guard; the attack would press forward hard and fast. (Very much mimicking the fast bursts that make up real violence... not sport).
> 
> Obviously it sounds like this group was a minority in how things are commonly done. I can only say that my 20+ years of MA experience and learning was impressed.


I think this is the key to the wing chun sparring mentality, in fact - as Tony Ferguson demonstrated against Pettis in UFC - you just have to have the confidence (and thus relevant training level!) to constantly press forward and 'box them in' in order to force your opponent into a pressured spot and make them lash out in desperation.

It is not 'rushing in' hoping for the best, though. Instead, it is calmly, methodically, plodding forward in a grounded fashion towards the target with a 'long guard' (better if one has reach advantage, of course, otherwise one needs to be speedy to get into the pocket), but very few wing chunners seem to practice this _very much wing chun philosophy_ attitude/approach in sparring.

The biggest issue, however, for wing chun in sparring/competitive MMA is that the power move is really the elbow, and not even Muay Thai spar their elbows effectively - THEY say that "it is just too dangerous" to do that, just like wing chun practitioners will say (but for some reason they are sniggered at, whilst muay thai stylists are not).

The K.O. power cannot come from wing chun fists in sparring/MMA sport fighting - those WC fists are sent out to distract and judge distance - to create openings for a speedy entry or another technique - to get into close range and to deposit the elbow 'payload,' for example.

So in fact, the wing chun sparring 'style' ends up looking a lot like muay thai - and this is probably why, for example, even though Tony Ferguson trains the elbows he finished Pettis with on a wing chun dummy, MMA fans (like Rokas) will not recognise wing chun's potency in the UFC cage - they will swear that Ferguson was doing muay thai.

On the street, however, the wing chun straight strikes such as cannon punch can aim for the throat, and come into their own in that respect. And if a strong umbrella is to hand, the knife form straight jabbing stuff can even be used. Wing chun ultimately revolves around straight line strikes from long knives and spears. Empty handed, however, then it needs to generate power from elbows, really (as a woman would), and so in sparring ends up looking like Thai kickboxing :/ . Not a problem, really, but elbows just can't really be effectively sparred outside of light sparring level, and even then it feels pathetic and pretty much useless to try.

Again, this stuff is made clear to Rokas, but he seems to be ambivalent. Perhaps it would generate less youtube clicks.


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## Tez3 (Jun 13, 2021)

Jaz said:


> I actually offered to take Rokas on in a challenge match, to see if I could pit Wing Chun against him.  I was willing to travel to Lithuania.  Rokas got back to me, and said that he would look into coming to the UK, so that we could arrange things.  Unfortunately, it looks like he decided that it was only video evidence that he was looking for...not to take anyone on in a match.  I posted my challenge to him on my youtube channel and emailed his that I had done so.  Hopefully, I can sort out some rounds of sparring with him instead,  At least, from the video evidence he received, he seems to have gained a respect for Wing Chun. I would've loved a scrap though!!!! Here;s the link to my challenge video, if you wanna see it:



I imagine he decided video evidence would have to do because travelling to and from other countries is problematic at the moment. Look on the government's website on travel to Lithuania, visa, registration, Covid tests, 10 days self isolation when there, when you get back to UK more self isolation! Now, the length of time before restrictions are lifted look to be extended, you could both be old men before you get to meet!
Hopefully though you may get a meet up, sooner rather than later.


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## geezer (Jun 13, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine he decided video evidence would have to do because travelling to and from other countries is problematic at the moment. Look on the government's website on travel to Lithuania, visa, registration, Covid tests, 10 days self isolation when there, when you get back to UK more self isolation! Now, the length of time before restrictions are lifted look to be extended, you could both be old men before you get to meet!
> Hopefully though you may get a meet up, sooner rather than later.


Dang, if people would just get their shots (the "jab" for you Brits) we could get out of this mess a whole lot faster! 

Now I know there are plenty of places where vaccines are still not all that available, but in the more developed nations it shouldn't be that big a problem. 

Here in the States, we've got plenty of vaccines. The only thing in short supply seems to be the number of _brain cells!_ A sizable percentage of people are either against getting vaccinated or just oblivious to the need. It's like living in the movie _Idiocracy!   _


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## wckf92 (Jun 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> Dang, if people would just get their shots (the "jab" for you Brits) we could get out of this mess a whole lot faster!
> 
> Now I know there are plenty of places where vaccines are still not all that available, but in the more developed nations it shouldn't be that big a problem.
> 
> Here in the States, we've got plenty of vaccines. The only thing in short supply seems to be the number of _brain cells!_ A sizable percentage of people are either against getting vaccinated or just oblivious to the need. It's like living in the movie _Idiocracy!  _


Shouldn't have to explain this but....there is literally no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot. Also, people have been conditioned to get a shot in order to restore things "back to normal" (aka freedom). Wake up people. 
If you want to get a shot, then go for it. If you don't...then don't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2021)

*REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:*

Let's keep the politics out of it. Politics are not a permitted topic, and making a topic political will get the thread locked quickly. If it continues after this reminder, warnings and/or points may follow.

-------
Gerry Seymour
*MartialTalk Moderator*
@gpseymour


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Shouldn't have to explain this but....there is literally no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot. Also, people have been conditioned to get a shot in order to restore things "back to normal" (aka freedom). Wake up people.
> If you want to get a shot, then go for it. If you don't...then don't.


_No politics_, just a personal perspective. Under _normal_ circumstances, when talking about things like the seasonal flu, etc. I would agree. If you don't get vaccinated, It's _your own problem,_ and your own decision. I'm big on personal freedom vs. "nanny state" thinking. 

Under the current situation, it's also important to also _consider our public responsibility_. If we choose not to get vaccinated, we can_ carry and spread_ the virus to others who are not, and (at this point) _cannot_ be vaccinated. That still includes children and people with certain medical conditions. 

As a parent and school teacher, and having an immunocompromised family member, these are very real concerns (I've already lost family to COVID-19). Also as a martial artist and MA teacher, I'm keenly aware of the role vaccines can play in protecting our MA students.

Finally, growing up in  a family of highly educated, medical professionals (my father and uncle both being top flight MD.s and surgeons) I have a keen awareness of the role of vaccines in this country's history, virtually eliminating deadly diseases like polio and smallpox in my lifetime. I also have little patience with medical _ignorance_, when it affects me, my family and my students. My own feeling is that others freedom of choice _ends where my space begins._

Not _politics_. Just a strong, personal point of view about _health and safety_ ....that is especially relevant to the practice of Martial Arts.

Others are entitled to their _misguided ideas_. I'm done this topic.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> *REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS:*
> 
> Let's keep the politics out of it. Politics are not a permitted topic, and making a topic political will get the thread locked quickly. If it continues after this reminder, warnings and/or points may follow.
> 
> ...


_Gerry-_ You know me... Normally just a little bit goofy and maybe a bit of a wise-guy looking for a laugh! I really have no desire to bring up a rancorous "political" debate. Period.

However, _health and safety_ in a martial arts school (as well as society at large) is a totally legit topic for this forum, especially if people can debate responsibly.

Heck, vaccination can just as legitimately be considered a matter of _self-defense._ Absolutely.

That said, I'm done. ...No really!  ...I really mean it! ...This time, for sure!!!


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> ....That said, I'm done. ...No really!  ...I really mean it! ...This time, for sure!!!


I see that WCKF92 _disagreed _with my previous post, just as I _disagreed_ with his post. Ah ....so we "agree to disagree". That's agreeable. Now lets get back to the OP!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 18, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> If you want to get a shot, then go for it. If you don't...then don't.


Besides the personal freedom, there is social responsibility.

- Will I wear face mask so the virus will have less chance to spread? I will.
- Will I take the shot so the virus will have less chance to spread? I will.


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## wckf92 (Jun 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Besides the personal freedom, there is social responsibility.
> 
> - Will I wear face mask so the virus will have less chance to spread? I will.
> - Will I take the shot so the virus will have less chance to spread? I will.


Congratulations


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## Jens (Jul 5, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Congratulations





wckf92 said:


> Congratulations


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## WonderingMonk (Jul 8, 2021)

My $.02 worth:

I believe that while foundational and important to practice, forms and drills don't actually teach you to fight anymore than learning chords, scales, and arpeggios teach you write music - that comes by actually doing and exploring how to apply it. If one isn't consistently pressure testing their skills, one isn't actually learning to fight and are really just lying to themselves. It isn't that WC is deficient, it's just frequently practiced ineffectively and this is a fair criticism that we all need to take to heart. Hard sparring isn't always fun but there really is no substitute.


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## WonderingMonk (Jul 14, 2021)

meh... I don't pay attention to Rokas, he's out to build viewership, nothing more.


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Shouldn't have to explain this but....there is literally no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot. Also, people have been conditioned to get a shot in order to restore things "back to normal" (aka freedom). Wake up people.
> If you want to get a shot, then go for it. If you don't...then don't.


Tell that to the last person who died from small pox, or the last kid who died from polio.  I don't consider this to be political, but this is pernicious ignorance.


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## geezer (Jul 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Tell that to the last person who died from small pox, or the last kid who died from polio.  I don't consider this to be political, but this is pernicious ignorance.


_Pernicious!_ I like that word. One you don't hear too often.

Interestingly, some kids we grew up with lost their father to polio after the Salk and Sabin vaccines were discovered and were being administered. The first vaccines available went to children who were the most at risk. After his kids were vaccinated, this man got polio and died while waiting until there was enough vaccine for adults too. He wasn't an anti-vaxxer, just unlucky ...and his three kids grew up without a father.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 19, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> Shouldn't have to explain this but....there is literally no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot. Also, people have been conditioned to get a shot in order to restore things "back to normal" (aka freedom). Wake up people.
> If you want to get a shot, then go for it. If you don't...then don't.


My wife's sister, her husband, and her children in Louisiana just got COVID 3 days ago because they didn't have vaccine shot. 

Last year, at least people had masks on. Today, people don't have mask on.


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## wckf92 (Jul 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife's sister, her husband, and her children in Louisiana just got COVID 3 days ago because they didn't have vaccine shot.
> 
> Last year, at least people had masks on. Today, people don't have mask on.


...still wondering why @gpseymour  hasnt locked this thread like he said he would...


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## BrendanF (Jul 19, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> ...still wondering why @gpseymour  hasnt locked this thread like he said he would...



Does it matter?  You got to speak your mind.

I'm kinda curious why you would claim that there is "no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot".  Can you explain that?  Do you have a background in medicine?

FWIW, the experts universally recommend vaccination - NOT simply as a means to 'get back to normal', but as a way of saving people's lives.


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## geezer (Jul 20, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> ...still wondering why @gpseymour  hasnt locked this thread like he said he would...


Why? You trying to shut me up? Good luck with that!!! My wife's been trying for over 30 years!


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## geezer (Jul 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My wife's sister, her husband, and her children in Louisiana just got COVID 3 days ago because they didn't have vaccine shot.
> 
> Last year, at least people had masks on. Today, people don't have mask on.


I hope that they don't suffer severe symptoms and_ get well soon._ Making what some of us may think is a poor decision regarding getting vaccinated is no reason to wish ill on anyone.


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## geezer (Jul 20, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Does it matter?  You got to speak your mind.
> 
> I'm kinda curious why you would claim that there is "no reason for most healthy people to get a vaccine shot".  Can you explain that?  Do you have a background in medicine?
> 
> FWIW, the experts universally recommend vaccination - NOT simply as a means to 'get back to normal', but as a way of saving people's lives.


Honestly, for some, it's a personal freedom issue. They don't like being pushed around by an overbearing government that they don't particularly trust. Surprisingly, I kinda get that.

On the other hand, I try to go with the best info available. So I got vaccinated last spring at the earliest opportunity. And I don't mind wearing a mask when I have to ...like traveling on a plane.

Actually, I just got back from a trip to Seattle. We were packed in like sardines and every single seat on the flights, both ways, was full. I was kinda glad everybody had to wear masks... with or without COVID. Think of all the other stuff in the air ...flu, colds, ...body odor... Need I elaborate?


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2021)

geezer said:


> Honestly, for some, it's a personal freedom issue. They don't like being pushed around by an overbearing government that they don't particularly trust. Surprisingly, I kinda get that.
> 
> On the other hand, I try to go with the best info available. So I got vaccinated last spring at the earliest opportunity. And I don't mind wearing a mask when I have to ...like traveling on a plane.
> 
> Actually, I just got back from a trip to Seattle. We were packed in like sardines and every single seat on the flights, both ways, was full. I was kinda glad everybody had to wear masks... with or without COVID. Think of all the other stuff in the air ...flu, colds, ...body odor... Need I elaborate?


Let's be real, though. The people who believe it's a freedom issue do so because they have been told it's a freedom issue.  They are being manipulated.  If they had been told getting the vaccine is civic duty by the people who lead them around, they would be getting vaccines in droves.   

If someone who has had the vaccine is telling you not to get it, they probably don't have your best interests in mind. Just consider for a moment that all the fox news folks, and OANN people, and congressmen, even the cuckoo ones, have all been vaccinated.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Thread locked pending staff review for political posting.

Gerry Seymour
*MT Moderator*
@gpseymour


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