# In defense of oil and gas companies, they aren't the bad guys



## billc (Apr 26, 2011)

Here is an article from the daily caller that discusses the profits made by oil and gas companies.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/

From the article:

Their earnings, however, are in line with those of other major U.S. manufacturing industries, as measured against their sales. The latest available data for 2010 earnings shows the oil and natural gas industry earned 5.7 cents for every dollar of sales. This is below the earnings of all U.S. manufacturing, which earned an average of 8.5 cents for every dollar of sales. Many would not expect an industry as large as the U.S. oil and natural gas industry, which supports 9.2 million U.S. [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]jobs[/color][/color] and contributes to 7.5 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), to have lower earnings per dollar of sales than the average manufacturing industry, but that&#8217;s the reality.

Further, U.S. oil and natural gas companies pay considerably more in taxes than the average manufacturing company. According to data found in the Standard & Poor&#8217;s Compustat North American Database, the industry&#8217;s 2009 net income tax expenses &#8212; essentially their effective marginal income tax rate &#8212; averaged 41 percent, compared to 26 percent for the S&P Industrial companies. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) concludes that, as an additional part of their tax obligation, the major energy-producing companies paid or incurred over $280 billion of income tax expenses between 2006 and 2008.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgPGZNsE

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgP3rqwD


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2011)

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a significant portion of those jobs are gas station workers.  And what about those subsidies?  I think Obama is right on with this one.  Why are we providing subsidies to big oil when they're reaping record profits in the midst of a recession?


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## Big Don (Apr 26, 2011)

Steve, they are also paying record taxes. Can the US government afford to forgo those taxes? Raise their costs by fiat, or law and and the price will be passed on to the consumer. Perhaps the real people to blame for today's record high gas prices are the environmentalists who stifle drilling and haven't allowed new refineries. Remember the refinery lost to Katrina? Has that been replaced?


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2011)

Wait.  How would eliminating subsidies absolve them of their tax obligation?


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2011)

As an aside, I still believe that the patriotic thing to do is to purchase an ev auto.   Energy independence is a matter of national security.


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## Big Don (Apr 26, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Wait.  How would eliminating subsidies absolve them of their tax obligation?


If the subsidies are $5 Billion, you can bet, that the second those go away, the price of their products gets bumped up enough to cover it.
That is how businesses operate...


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2011)

like theone you plug in and it catches fire?

40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?

no thanks


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2011)

Big Don said:


> If the subsidies are $5 Billion, you can bet, that the second those go away, the price of their products gets bumped up enough to cover it.
> That is how businesses operate...


You think?  I don't.  I think they'll do just what they've always done, which is to charge ABSOLUTELY as much as they think they can get away with.  And laugh all the way to the bank.  Of course they'll bump prices.  Just like they bump prices when the weather gets warmer... and bump prices when the weather gets colder.  When a refinery goes **** up, they bump the prices because refining oil will be more expensive.  And then they bump prices a few months later because the oil cost them more to refine a few months back.  It's collusion, guys.  They have us by the balls and they know it.



Twin Fist said:


> like theone you plug in and it catches fire?
> 
> 40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?
> 
> no thanks


National security.  Number 1 reason i'm willing to pay money I don't need to in order to buy a car I can drive for about 70 miles on a charge.  I'm willing to make the adjustment to my personal life, and the number one reason is that every single ounce of electricity we use in America is produced in America.

I understand that you might not think that this is as important as I do.  It's a liberal thing.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> As an aside, I still believe that the patriotic thing to do is to purchase an ev auto. Energy independence is a matter of national security.


 
I'm right there with you, as soon as you give me the money to buy one, or the Manufacturers make them cost less than a pair of Camaros.


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## Carol (Apr 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> National security.  Number 1 reason i'm willing to pay money I don't need to in order to buy a car I can drive for about 70 miles on a charge.  I'm willing to make the adjustment to my personal life, and the number one reason is that every single ounce of electricity we use in America is produced in America.



I'm sorry Steve, this is absolutely not the case!  We do not generate all the electricity we use in America.  Ask someone in Ontario or Quebec, or possibly even Atlantic Canada what they think of their Hydro bill.  The electricity costs for most citizens in the eastern parts of Canada has gone through the roof.  American cities from Boston, MA to Houston, TX buy more than $1,500,000,000 worth of electricity from Hydro Quebec...and now with the proposed Northern Pass project, the utils in the northeast want to spend another billion chopping up the northern wilderness of northern NH so cities that aren't in NH can buy _even more_ electricity from Hydro Quebec.

For the electricity we do generate in America, it is often done with foreign fuels.  The primary method is to burn coal to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to generate electricity which is a horribly inefficient system.    We import tonnes and tonnes of coal from abroad.  The state of NH imports more than half of its coal from Colombia and Venezuela.  Plants on the power grid depend heavily on diesel generators for backup power and to supply power to regions that are not well suited to receive coal shipments.  Some other plants use natural gas, we import that too...sometimes from unfriendly countries.  Not sure if we import nuclear material, but the U.S. has not built a nuke in 30 years.  The World Nuclear association states we might have 4 new nukes by 2020. We'll need more than that to talk energy independence.  Some areas have wind power, but the 1.5 megawatt turbine in Portsmouth, RI has been criticized for consuming more in fossil fuels for production than it will ever produce in return throughout the course of its usable life.  We have wood power as well, but that is not as widespread.

Based on information provided by Nissan, the Leaf requires approx. 24 kilowatt hours to charge. What do we typically do to generate 24 kWh of electricity for that 70 miles of driving

1. Burn approx. 5.5 pounds of coal
2. Burn approx 2.75 gallons of diesel
3. Burn approx. 85 cubic feet of natural gas.
4. Split the atom
5. Buy it from Canada.



http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/243806/northern-pass-project-two-views
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/742706-196/report-psnhs-use-of-coal-drains-green.html
http://www.necn.com/pages/landing_newengland?blockID=185020&tagID=57961
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf41.html
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging#/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging
https://docs.google.com/a/mutualink...MBep_t&sig=AHIEtbRVgvt42GIVD7WPziBgAzUMaL-Ajg
http://greenecon.net/how-to-measure...ssions-for-home-heating/energy_economics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal


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## billc (Apr 27, 2011)

thanks carol, that was a great post.


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## Big Don (Apr 27, 2011)

Neither electric cars nor hybrids are really viable replacements at this time. The infrastructure isn't there, the prices are too high, the compounds in the batteries are toxic... 
Drilling HERE would help. Annexing Mexico and drilling there would work too...


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## ganglian (Apr 27, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Here is an article from the daily caller that discusses the profits made by oil and gas companies.
> 
> http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/
> 
> ...


 

The real villainas are trolls with a soap box


(Ducks for cover)


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## ganglian (Apr 27, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> like theone you plug in and it catches fire?
> 
> 40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?
> 
> no thanks


 

Or the one that just ranked highest in car tests......


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2011)

Combined that big 5 oil companies made what amounts to a $39,000,000 *"a day"* profit.

Meanwhile we pay $4.00/gal and it is going up

Nuff said


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> I'm right there with you, as soon as you give me the money to buy one, or the Manufacturers make them cost less than a pair of Camaros.


My quote is for $100 over invoice.  $32,600 out the door.  When I file my taxes, I'll get $7500 back from Uncle Sugar as a tax credit.  So, $25k...  not a cheap car, but not completely out of sight.   Even at full price $32k, it's not out of reach for the person who will likely be in the market for it: a white collar worker commuting to an office relatively close to the house.  



Carol said:


> I'm sorry Steve, this is absolutely not the case!  We do not generate all the electricity we use in America.  Ask someone in Ontario or Quebec, or possibly even Atlantic Canada what they think of their Hydro bill.  The electricity costs for most citizens in the eastern parts of Canada has gone through the roof.  American cities from Boston, MA to Houston, TX buy more than $1,500,000,000 worth of electricity from Hydro Quebec...and now with the proposed Northern Pass project, the utils in the northeast want to spend another billion chopping up the northern wilderness of northern NH so cities that aren't in NH can buy _even more_ electricity from Hydro Quebec.


Sorry, I should have qualified my statement.  Washington State sells electricity to other States and to Canada.  We generate more than we consume.  Some States, about 10 in 2008, purchase upwards of 5% of their electricity from Mexico or Canada.  Most of that is Natural Gas.  

This is what I've been looking at: http://www.eia.doe.gov/states/sep_sum/html/sum_btu_eu.html 



> For the electricity we do generate in America, it is often done with foreign fuels.


And here we are, back to our dependance on foreign oil.  In this case, add natural gas to the mix, too.  But the thrust here is energy independence.  If we're serious about national security, this has to be a bigger deal than it is.  That bill, TF and the others aren't completely backing me up here is suspicious to me and only makes me more sure that they're jersey wearers who will disagree with "the other side" no matter what the position is. 





> The primary method is to burn coal to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to generate electricity which is a horribly inefficient system.    We import tonnes and tonnes of coal from abroad.  The state of NH imports more than half of its coal from Colombia and Venezuela.  Plants on the power grid depend heavily on diesel generators for backup power and to supply power to regions that are not well suited to receive coal shipments.  Some other plants use natural gas, we import that too...sometimes from unfriendly countries.  Not sure if we import nuclear material, but the U.S. has not built a nuke in 30 years.  The World Nuclear association states we might have 4 new nukes by 2020. We'll need more than that to talk energy independence.  Some areas have wind power, but the 1.5 megawatt turbine in Portsmouth, RI has been criticized for consuming more in fossil fuels for production than it will ever produce in return throughout the course of its usable life.  We have wood power as well, but that is not as widespread.


Regarding coal, http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/special/exports_imports.html

This is what I have been looking at.  We export far more coal than is imported, and imported coal represents less than 3% of the coal used in America. Dramatically different than what we import from coal.   "Coal imports are part of the overall picture of the coal industry in the  U.S. but they represent a small portion of the domestic coal  consumption, averaging about 3 percent of total U.S. coal consumption in  a year."


> Based on information provided by Nissan, the Leaf requires approx. 24 kilowatt hours to charge. What do we typically do to generate 24 kWh of electricity for that 70 miles of driving


I'm not tracking here, Carol.  24 kWh translates to a practical cost of $2.64 cents per day at $.11 per kWh (Puget Power charges .8 cents for the first... 700 kWh I think.  Then .11 cents per kWh after that).  70 miles for me is 3 gallons of gas.  At $4/gallon ($4.05 yesterday), that's pretty good savings.  

And, while 24 kWh/day will definitely hike my electricity usage, I think it's important to keep things in context.  An average hot tub running at 1500 Watts for four hours per day (which isn't unreasonable if it's cycling on and off to maintain temperature 24/7) is burning 6 kWh per day.  A 100 Watt light bulb on for 12 hours/day is coming in at just over 1 kWh/day (on only half the day).  That's just one typical bulb.  4 hours of TV per day on the 50" plasma, plus the xbox 360, the surround system and the cable box is also about 6 kWh, conservatively.

Point is, if I drive 70 miles in a day, that's a LOT of travel for most of us.  I drive 10 miles to work and home.  10 miles to BJJ and home.  40 miles right there.  Then trudging around Covington to the grocery store, to pick up the baby, run the teens around a little and get some errands done.  I might drive 50 miles per day on average.  In lieu of burning just over 2 gallons of gasoline, I'll be using about 18 to 20 kWh of electricity.  



> 1. Burn approx. 5.5 pounds of coal
> 2. Burn approx 2.75 gallons of diesel
> 3. Burn approx. 85 cubic feet of natural gas.
> 4. Split the atom
> 5. Buy it from Canada.


I'm not sure what you're driving at here.  There's wind power, hydro electric...  and relative to how much electricity other things pull, running an entire car all day on about 3 to 4 times as much electricity as I'm using to watch the boob tube seems pretty reasonable to me.

Edit:  I want to add, Carol, that I'm VERY interested in any information you have.  You seem knowledgeable, and this is an area that I'm researching actively.  I am sharing information that is accurate as I understand it.  If I'm wrong about something, I welcome correction.  My intent isn't to mislead anyone. 

What I am is passionate about severing as much as I can my addiction to oil, and supporting technology that breaks their stranglehold on our economy.  I am also very passionate and sincere about moving toward energy independence.


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Neither electric cars nor hybrids are really viable replacements at this time. The infrastructure isn't there, the prices are too high, the compounds in the batteries are toxic...
> Drilling HERE would help. Annexing Mexico and drilling there would work too...


It's a viable replacement for me.  Battery technology isn't completely there yet, but I'm confident that it will improve.  Lithium isn't the panacea, but overall, it's a huge step in the right direction.

For what it's worth, anyone here who has mentioned the "toxic" materials used to create batteries.  Are you in favor of nuclear energy?  It's "clean" but there is a growing amount of waste that is being stored until we come up with a viable way to dispose of it.


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## Big Don (Apr 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> My quote is for $100 over invoice.  $32,600 out the door.  When I file my taxes, I'll get $7500 back from Uncle Sugar as a tax credit.


So, we should subsidize you, not the large companies...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2011)

subsidize me and I'll buy one of these and at least get 40 mpg


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## Big Don (Apr 27, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> subsidize me and I'll buy one of these and at least get 40 mpg


Yeah, but, then you'll want grease for your hair, and a leather jacket...
It never stops, does it, Fonzarelli?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, but, then you'll want grease for your hair, and a leather jacket...
> It never stops, does it, Fonzarelli?


 
nah I don't do grease and I already have a couple of leathers and 3 helmets from the days I use to ride.... all I want is the bike...honest


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Yeah, but, then you'll want grease for your hair, and a leather jacket...
> It never stops, does it, Fonzarelli?


 
and there you go jumping the shark..


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## granfire (Apr 27, 2011)

considering that a gas company caused a lot of trouble by assume a calculated risk by saving 200k dollars (out of the billions in record profits) I find it really hard to not consider them to be 'the bad guys' 

The continued rumor is that big corporations are eager to buy up promising patents that could advance mankind, to be thrown into vaults never to be seen again.

I heard of poly urethane tires that would virtually never need replacing and no air to inflate. 

There are options to advance independency from fossil fuels by means of more fuel efficient applications or recycling. But the consciousness in the US is just not there.
There is no interest to promote these things. and since everything does ride on the almighty dollar, I am having a good guess as to why.


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## Big Don (Apr 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> I heard of poly urethane tires that would virtually never need replacing and no air to inflate.


 I, for one, blame Big Air...





> There are options to advance independency from fossil fuels by means of more fuel efficient applications or recycling.


 Such as? How about the early 90's Geo Metro, a little runt of a car that got 53MPG, but, didn't sell because they were butt ugly, shouldn't the government have forced GM to keep making them? Especially when the government controlled GM?





> But the consciousness in the US is just not there.
> There is no interest to promote these things. and since everything does ride on the almighty dollar, I am having a good guess as to why.


Because, there is no BIG money in it. Whoever makes the big, technological breakthrough that makes cars run on water (Man) or whatever the next big fuel turns out to be, will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice.


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> So, we should subsidize you, not the large companies...


Whether you do or not, I'd likely buy the car.  Like the oil companies, I'd be foolish not to take it when offered.  Unlike the oil companies, I don't consider it an entitlement and a way to pad record profits.


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> I, for one, blame Big Air... Such as? How about the early 90's Geo Metro, a little runt of a car that got 53MPG, but, didn't sell because they were butt ugly, shouldn't the government have forced GM to keep making them? Especially when the government controlled GM?Because, there is no BIG money in it. Whoever makes the big, technological breakthrough that makes cars run on water (Man) or whatever the next big fuel turns out to be, will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice.


Friend of mine still drives a Metro.  There are websites that are devoted to increasing gas mileage.  They did sell and they're still all over the place if you look for them.  

And I guarantee that as gas prices rise, we'll see more and more of them (and other similar cars like the VW and Audi TDIs)  on the roads.  We will also see more bikes and really notice an uptick with mopeds.   I see any of these as being good ways to go if it suits your particular situation. 

I want to be very, very clear that I have several reasons for being interested in EV technology.  

Number one is pushing ever closer to energy independence.  As I said before, this is a priority.  

Number two is easily financial.  I'm looking at cutting my daily operating costs for transportation to 1/3rd of what I pay now. 

Number three is, frankly, a desire to do something new and different.  The idea of driving a car that makes little noise and runs on electricity is just neat, IMO.

Number four... a distant fourth, are concerns about the environment.  I, like most American I believe, am willing to do things that are "green" if it's not too much of a burden.  I mean, I'm good about recycling because an infrastructure is in place that makes it easy for me to do the right thing.


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## granfire (Apr 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> I, for one, blame Big Air...


quit being silly.
But it seems like Goodyear and Micheline would have little interest in letting a competitor reach the market that runs forever and does not need replacing after running over a nail.



> Such as? How about the early 90's Geo Metro, a little runt of a car that got 53MPG, but, didn't sell because they were butt ugly, shouldn't the government have forced GM to keep making them? Especially when the government controlled GM?


Like I said, the consciousness is not there. I don't blame people in rural areas for wanting (or needing) a big vehicle, but if you live in an urban setting a big car is ridiculous to own.



> Because, there is no BIG money in it. Whoever makes the big, technological breakthrough that makes cars run on water (Man) or whatever the next big fuel turns out to be, will be rich beyond the dreams of avarice.



You are very wrong that there is no money in it. 
But it won't be easy flowing money.
Environmental cleanup techniques are big business, a growing industry, so are recycling companies. 
Any and all plastic you can recycle frees up crude oil to be used in other application - gas is by now probably only a small side business of the petrol biz. Another reason why people should be mad about being jerked around. 
Cars can be made  - without going hybrid - to use very little fuel. I don't think there is a reason that any vehicle still uses as much gas as they do - in the states. As Sukerkin has pointed out, in other parts of the world they laugh at us when we yammer on about paying 4 bucks a gallon. Though most of the gas prises in Europe are taxes, straight up. 

And still, there is the gas price roulette: the markups fluctuate without rhyme or reason around the country...except when there is a peak of usage to expect, the price jumps up. Usually being blamed on the Chinese...

Also, there are alternative fuels already available...and most are not really new: In WWII many people converted their vehicles to burn wood.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzvergaserkessel

There is _no interest_ in advancing alternatives. Business as usual is good money. Especially when you do have the monopoly or share it with your 4 or 5 closest friends.

Or the regulations are set up that new technologies can't be pursued or put into a working application. 

I think of it that way: If California would have not enforced a strict emissions rule on new cars, we still would drive on leaded fuel with no catalytic converters. And golly, do you remember the cries of horror from the auto industry?! 

business does not adjust itself to the demand of a powerless few. But will make miraculous strides when the thumb screws are put to them.
( there are also curious things going on about a certain type of 0 emission care being available - but only in very restricted marked under threat of draconian punishments for dealers breaking those restriction....hmmmmm I suppose only Cali people deserve cleaner air...the rest can choke??)

The man who invents the new fuel will likely stay poor. because he won't have the backup of industry to implement his invention in a meaningful way. He will graciously accept the buyout from big biz and retire to his row house in Podunk someplace...


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> There is _no interest_ in advancing alternatives. Business as usual is good money. Especially when you do have the monopoly or share it with your 4 or 5 closest friends.


Until we demand it.  And that means buying the less convenient, flawed, early forays into the market and, literally, putting our money where our mouths are.  I'm very anxious about bugs and unforeseen issues with what is essentially a first generation EV.  While there have been others in the past, the Leaf and the Fusion EV are the first real consumer grade, to the masses EVs on the market.  I'm not rich enough to buy a Tesla Roadster, nor am I smart, nerdy or radical enough to convert an ICE to an EV.  But, I make a good wage, and can logistically swing this thing.  It's within the scope of what I can do, and it is my small part of saying to the auto industry, "There IS a demand for alternatives."

What is also working in our favor is that the auto industry got left hanging by big oil.  Historically, the two have worked in tandem, but while the auto industry crumbled around us big oil is raking it in.


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## granfire (Apr 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Until we demand it.  And that means buying the less convenient, flawed, early forays into the market and, literally, putting our money where our mouths are.  I'm very anxious about bugs and unforeseen issues with what is essentially a first generation EV.  While there have been others in the past, the Leaf and the Fusion EV are the first real consumer grade, to the masses EVs on the market.  I'm not rich enough to buy a Tesla Roadster, nor am I smart, nerdy or radical enough to convert an ICE to an EV.  But, I make a good wage, and can logistically swing this thing.  It's within the scope of what I can do, and it is my small part of saying to the auto industry, "There IS a demand for alternatives."
> 
> What is also working in our favor is that the auto industry got left hanging by big oil.  Historically, the two have worked in tandem, but while the auto industry crumbled around us big oil is raking it in.



True enough.
However, unless some legislature puts an element of urgency on the matter, not many can justify the expenses of experimental technology to advance the demand (see: clean air issues in Cali, after that things went fast and furious, in spite of all the fake tears of the industry. Because it can be done)


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## Cryozombie (May 1, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> subsidize me and I'll buy one of these and at least get 40 mpg


 
Sorry... I didn't know you were a girl.


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## Xue Sheng (May 1, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> Sorry... I didn't know you were a girl.


 
Isn't that cute....BUT ITS WRONG!!!!!! 

Frankly if I Really think about it if I were to buy a new bike today it would likely be a BMW F 650 GS or a BMW F 800 GS. I do not like being stuck only on pavement

beyond that I will say nothing openly on teh web other than, I have a rather strong opinion of bikes and about 80% of the riders today that all basically boils own to wanna-be which is also why I tend to shy away from Harleys today. But go back 25 years I almost got something like this and if I had not hurt my back really bad and lost my job back then I would have got it. I was however looking for one of these at the time, without the windshield

But if you want to give me a one of these I will take it in a heartbeat... now show me how much of a man and a true harley guy you are and tell me what that is without looking it up or looking at the link :EG:

I will also take a shaft drive harley if you want to give me one


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## Cryozombie (May 1, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> But if you want to give me a one of these I will take it in a heartbeat... now show me how much of a man and a true harley guy you are and tell me what that is without looking it up or looking at the link :EG:
> 
> I will also take a shaft drive harley if you want to give me one


 
I'll be honest with you... I don't ride a Harley.  You know why?  The only one I could afford was a sportster and all my Harley freinds insist only chicks ride them.

Of course now they give me the "Id rather push a Harley than ride anything else" B.S.

I'm perfectly happy with my nice shiny shaft drive Yami.  Ive ridden it on nice summer days, in thunderstorms, in sub-freezing weather... never had an issue with it.


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## Xue Sheng (May 1, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> I'll be honest with you... I don't ride a Harley. You know why? The only one I could afford was a sportster and all my Harley freinds insist only chicks ride them.
> 
> Of course now they give me the "Id rather push a Harley than ride anything else" B.S.
> 
> I'm perfectly happy with my nice shiny shaft drive Yami. Ive ridden it on nice summer days, in thunderstorms, in sub-freezing weather... never had an issue with it.


 
I pushed a Harley, several times, it was only a 125 but I can tell you it is not fun to push for miles and miles and about the time a guy on a honda passes you that pushing statement goes RIGHT out the window

My Seca 750 was faster than any Harley any of my friends had and it handled better too. But then throw in a Barnet Clutch and a set of custom pipes and it is not all that surprising. And my BMW was much quieter and smoother riding than any HD, but then the BMW taught me how much I hate fairings too.

By the way the bike in the last link is a 1956 Harley KHK and I REALLY want one. As for the Shaft drive HD, I saw one once in NH and it is from WW II and very very rare so if you happen to have one you don&#8217;t want, I&#8217;ll take it off your hands 


And now back to your regularly scheduled post


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