# Pressure Points (Kyosho?Kyoto?Kyoso?)



## bladenosh (Mar 31, 2006)

There is an online website to learn pressure points from a 3d module, video clip, pictures, and verbal explanation... I can't remember the web address, I saw it on here before in one of the many threads, so can someone give me the correct web address please?


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Mar 31, 2006)

www.kyusho.com I believe


----------



## bladenosh (Mar 31, 2006)

Amazing how a photographic memory can alienate you when you don't take the time to absorb the moment....
Thank you very much brother  Wish I could repay it to you.


----------



## still learning (Apr 1, 2006)

Hello, The video clip was very interesting!  .....after seeing this...one wants to learn more.............Aloha


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 1, 2006)

Interesting in a that's complete BS kinda way.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2006)

pointing the way...

world standard in pressure point arts....

online learning...

alrighty then


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 1, 2006)

Bladenosh, here's my two cents on PP if you want them.  First, if you seriously want to lean them, find someone qualified to teach you as part of thier art/style.  Secondly, I think the techniques should work without the PPs in the first place.  If you get extra pain or effect with them, great.  If the person you are doing them to isn't affected by them, well, then you still did something with the base technique.  I used to think all the PP stuff was BS till a friend of mine, who had been studying them for years started showing me how they could augment pain, even in a hard sparring session, and in a much more controlled session, did a vey nice KO on me.  Wish I had recorded that.  I wouldn't say it made me a true believer, but it did show me that they can augment strikes to cause more pain and body motion.

Jeff


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 1, 2006)

I have been hit on just about every square inch of my body. I have yet to be knocked out. If anybody on the planet can repeatedly perform PP techniques on resisting oppenents they stand to make millions. I've heard these claims my entire MA career. Nobody has ever demonstrated them on anybody but their "followers". 

*PP are BS. *


----------



## bladenosh (Apr 1, 2006)

It sort of makes sense though, and of course some won't be able to feel certain pressure points as well as others. Whether its defended by fat, muscle, or some other odd reason.  Generally though, pressure points are a valuable weapon to have in your arsenal. Its just another factor. It is undeniable that its takes a certain angle to knock someone out due to pressure points and nerve crossings, and that would be valuable to know. I think? You guys are probably more experienced.


----------



## BlackSheep (Apr 2, 2006)

I used the double chop to the neck shown in the video on a kid in junior high school. The kid did fall to the ground but when I think back on it, Im convinced the kid was faking it.

That PP in the upper lip just below the nose, well I was punched real hard there once and the lower half of my face went numb. I still finished the sparing session and the feeling in my face came back in about half an hour. I cant say its much of a PP since its unlikely to be hit and has a limited effect. Most PP are probably like this. 

I think the best bet for a quick KO is a hard blow to the chin. 

Btw does the chin/jaw count as a PP?


----------



## ppko (Apr 2, 2006)

I ussually try to stay out of these discussions but I will answer a few questions here: first of all what is a pressure point - it is anywhere where the nervs cross, Y, or end.  There are a few ways to access PP's touch, rub, or strike some respond to all three, some respond to only one (ie the point below the nose best responds to a rub or a touch).  There is a point on the chin it is in the little dip right below the lip this is a Conception pointthis is most effective at a downward strike on a 45 degree angle (kinda like how you hit a speed bag) if you hit this correctly you not only effect this point but both Triple Warmers/ Heaters that lie right behind your jawbone just below the ear.  There is no true best place to KO anyone my philosophy is hit them good and hit them harfd don't stop until the threat is neutralized.  Everyone on here knows what organization I am with, but until some of you come and see some of us train in a classroom setting you can never understand how, at least the people that I have trained with, trains.


----------



## still learning (Apr 2, 2006)

Hello, Massage is form of pressure points too? .....Ahhhhhhh....Aloha


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 2, 2006)

Isn't accupuncture as well? It is FDA approved from what I gather.

Jeff


----------



## ppko (Apr 2, 2006)

Accupressure and accupuncture both use the same points that you would use for fighting with pressure points


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 2, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> Accupressure and accupuncture both use the same points that you would use for fighting with pressure points


 
Yes they do and Acupressure is known as Tui Na in China and if you ever have someone that truly knows what they are doing use Tui Na on you, it can sometimes cause you considerable pain.


----------



## bladenosh (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes below the jaw is a nerve, that snaps for a knockout when you punch the jaw. So pressure point talk is not completely ridiculous. Its all anatomy.


----------



## frank raud (Apr 10, 2006)

bladenosh said:
			
		

> Yes below the jaw is a nerve, that snaps for a knockout when you punch the jaw. So pressure point talk is not completely ridiculous. Its all anatomy.


As it is simply a matter of anatomy, could you please point out this nerve on an anatomical drawing? If this nerve is under the jaw, is it best attacked by an uppercut? Or are you saying that by hitting the jaw from the side, you cause a sympathetic reaction to a nerve vessel that you haven't directly touched? As you mention only one nerve, does it matter which side you strike? Some many questions you could help fill in my lack of knowledge about.


----------



## Robert Lee (Apr 10, 2006)

I think the best pressure point is a choke seal the blood and the breath They go out. But nerve strikes they are hard to depend on. And such small targets to get. Now in the clinch maybe they can help a little But yet to other then training drills Where real resistance is not happening that they work well. But for the healing arts Yes they work


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 10, 2006)

try learn.kyusho.com

As Evan Pantazzi points out (pardon the pun), the videos, books, and websites are a supplemnt to hands-on training, not a replacement.


----------



## ppko (Apr 12, 2006)

frank raud said:
			
		

> As it is simply a matter of anatomy, could you please point out this nerve on an anatomical drawing? If this nerve is under the jaw, is it best attacked by an uppercut? Or are you saying that by hitting the jaw from the side, you cause a sympathetic reaction to a nerve vessel that you haven't directly touched? As you mention only one nerve, does it matter which side you strike? Some many questions you could help fill in my lack of knowledge about.


Actually there are many KO points the one the he is speaking of most likely lies right here if you look at the picture anywhere the nerve ends, Y's, or crosses there are pressure points but in order to access these you must have the right angle and direction


----------



## ppko (Apr 12, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I think the best pressure point is a choke seal the blood and the breath They go out. But nerve strikes they are hard to depend on. And such small targets to get. Now in the clinch maybe they can help a little But yet to other then training drills Where real resistance is not happening that they work well. But for the healing arts Yes they work


you are not using PP's in your scenario, and the point about using these in a fight, well is just not true.  PP's lie all over the body with an activation the sixze of about a quarter for each of these, this would be rather easy to access in a fight, now do y ou sit there and aim for a certain point while you are fighting, no, these will be built in if you practice your kata the way they were meant to be praciticed (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent) this is why there are kata so that you don't have to think about what you do next you are in a position and naturally you flow to the next no thinking just natural.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 12, 2006)

I say keep it simple for real. Hitting the major targets is difficult, hard training or not, let alone all of the quarter sized points. I've seen them and felt them, so I'm not down grading them, but too many factors go into their execution in practice, let alone, during full speed fights.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> you are not using PP's in your scenario, and the point about using these in a fight, well is just not true. PP's lie all over the body with an activation the sixze of about a quarter for each of these, this would be rather easy to access in a fight, now do y ou sit there and aim for a certain point while you are fighting, no, these will be built in if you practice your kata the way they were meant to be praciticed (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent) this is why there are kata so that you don't have to think about what you do next you are in a position and naturally you flow to the next no thinking just natural.


-So PP are easy to hit and ones kata will show the way...What nonsense. That would require blind faith. Blind faith has no place in the MA's.


----------



## BlackSheep (Apr 12, 2006)

> PP's lie all over the body with an activation the sixze of about a quarter for each of these


Too bad only two have a proven track record, the jaw and the solar plexus.


----------



## frank raud (Apr 12, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> Actually there are many KO points the one the he is speaking of most likely lies right here if you look at the picture anywhere the nerve ends, Y's, or crosses there are pressure points but in order to access these you must have the right angle and direction


 
Fascinating. How are any of these to be considered under the jaw?


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 12, 2006)

BlackSheep said:
			
		

> Too bad only two have a proven track record, the jaw and the solar plexus.


 
I've seen more than one boxing match end on a shot to the side of the ribs (called "liver" but's it not really).  So there's 3. 

How many times have you seen Remy Bonjasky kick a guy on GB-31 until he can't even walk anymore???  (side of the thigh)  that's 4.

on the jaw there are 2 different spots.  The side of the jaw and the tip of the jaw.  So there's a total of 5 with "proven track records".


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 12, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So PP are easy to hit and ones kata will show the way...What nonsense. That would require blind faith. Blind faith has no place in the MA's.


 
You don't make sense.  how does "you practice your kata the way they were meant to be practiced (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent)" equal "blind faith"?

Some styles train to attack more than one target, with more than one weapon... just because that's how you train, doesn't make everything else "nonsense".

If you take a movement out of a kata, and work it against a live opponent under pressure... how is that any different than some boxing coach telling you how to punch and where to hit, and then practicing it against a live opponent under pressure???


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> You don't make sense. how does "you practice your kata the way they were meant to be practiced (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent)" equal "blind faith"?
> 
> Some styles train to attack more than one target, with more than one weapon... just because that's how you train, doesn't make everything else "nonsense".
> 
> If you take a movement out of a kata, and work it against a live opponent under pressure... how is that any different than some boxing coach telling you how to punch and where to hit, and then practicing it against a live opponent under pressure???


-If he means an alive RESISTING opponent then I'm good. But when is kata practiced with resistance?


----------



## BlackSheep (Apr 12, 2006)

> I've seen more than one boxing match end on a shot to the side of the ribs (called "liver" but's it not really). So there's 3.


Yea that hurts but does that fit the definition of a PP, but if you want to count it that&#8217;s ok by me.






> How many times have you seen Remy Bonjasky kick a guy on GB-31 until he can't even walk anymore??? (side of the thigh) that's 4.


I&#8217;ve experience it in the ring myself, ok that&#8217;s four.






> on the jaw there are 2 different spots. The side of the jaw and the tip of the jaw. So there's a total of 5 with "proven track records".


The jaw is proven but not the two spots you mentioned. 



Four is a far cry from the PP charts I&#8217;ve seen and statements like &#8220;all over the body&#8221;.


----------



## lenatoi (Apr 12, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> You don't make sense.  how does "you practice your kata the way they were meant to be practiced (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent)" equal "blind faith"?
> 
> Some styles train to attack more than one target, with more than one weapon... just because that's how you train, doesn't make everything else "nonsense".
> 
> If you take a movement out of a kata, and work it against a live opponent under pressure... how is that any different than some boxing coach telling you how to punch and where to hit, and then practicing it against a live opponent under pressure???


Thankyou! I was thinking the same thing as I read.


----------



## Robert Lee (Apr 13, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> you are not using PP's in your scenario, and the point about using these in a fight, well is just not true. PP's lie all over the body with an activation the sixze of about a quarter for each of these, this would be rather easy to access in a fight, now do y ou sit there and aim for a certain point while you are fighting, no, these will be built in if you practice your kata the way they were meant to be praciticed (with visuallization , and practice on a live opponent) this is why there are kata so that you don't have to think about what you do next you are in a position and naturally you flow to the next no thinking just natural.


  I used the choke as joke in a way. I find pressure points  Not that readly a useable tool Far as Kata to many train kata and never understand the break down.  the broken down tools in kata is the different seperated movements. If by some chance in a fight a person hits a nerve point And it helps to bring a end Fine But resistive opponents and the difference you find on each person says not to relie on nerve strikes A very small amount of tools come into play in a real fight. And people when fighting have more pain tolorence then So you just do what you have to do to survive and bring a end to the fight. In training where you have a non real resistive partner pain and control  on nerve points look good and show to be effective. But when you take the action to a live person trying to harm you or you them .There you find a truth in what you are doing. And you find most often keeping and maintaining a small workable tool box of useable tools  that work well for you are much more ready for use in a instance . I Know if i can rattle the brain enough when I hit I can knock some one out. I know if i can get a choke in I can ckoke them out. I can depend on that to happen  A flick to the eyes the other person does not see as well. Sure if I am so lucky to hit a nerve point that stops a fight Then hey it helped me. Depend on it no That other person I would be fighting His actions would lead to my actions I would only hope to  end what was started. Now with that said. Fighting is not an every day thing Most people in the M/A world never fight on the streets as they mature. BUT some day may have to. A M/A art trains aspects of different approaches of combat. To ready you for that. But with a large tool box of different applications How can a person be good at all of them. They can not. But the can be good at a small amount and comforatble at other amounts. Then a fight you use what you do best If its tui te pressure points Fine hope it works loosen the person up some then they could work better I think


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 16, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> Accupressure and accupuncture both use the same points that you would use for fighting with pressure points


 
Actually no they are not. It is just that the points we use for combat are quite close to the areas of accu/activation. They require different angles, directions etc. It makes it easier to teach newbies if you can refer them to charts or diagrams.

In actual fact, the points we use for combat, especially in those systems who use the term KYUSHO(which is totally wrong anyway), are nerve points, which in and of themselves are different to pressure points.

I used to use the term Kyusho myself, but have since seen the error of my ways through some quality training. I know my avatar still says 





> Kyusho-What's your point?


, but that's because I can't change it.

Anyhoo, have a nice day.

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 16, 2006)

frank raud said:
			
		

> As it is simply a matter of anatomy, could you please point out this nerve on an anatomical drawing? If this nerve is under the jaw, is it best attacked by an uppercut? Or are you saying that by hitting the jaw from the side, you cause a sympathetic reaction to a nerve vessel that you haven't directly touched? As you mention only one nerve, does it matter which side you strike? Some many questions you could help fill in my lack of knowledge about.


 
All nerve points are functional in combat, but in varying degrees. If you know where to strike and how to strike, and have trained it in some kind of real time scenario, then you can do it too.

Due to the fact that most nerve branches are symmetrical(sp?), no it doesn't matter which side you strike on.

--Dave


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 16, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> In actual fact, the points we use for combat, especially in those systems who use the term KYUSHO(which is totally wrong anyway), are nerve points, which in and of themselves are different to pressure points.



Can you explain the difference to us?

Jeff


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 16, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> Actually there are many KO points the one the he is speaking of most likely lies right here if you look at the picture anywhere the nerve ends, Y's, or crosses there are pressure points but in order to access these you must have the right angle and direction


 
Actually, angle and direction are a secondary consideration. The most important thing in combat is postural integrity. If your posture is correct, then the correct angle and direction will automatically present itself on your opponent.

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 16, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So PP are easy to hit and ones kata will show the way...What nonsense. That would require blind faith. Blind faith has no place in the MA's.


 
Yes, pressure points are easy to hit, IF YOU TRAIN CORRECTLY & REALISTICALLY.

Yes, ones kata will show the way, IF YOU TRAIN CORRECTLY & REALISTICALLY.

If we didn't begin with some level of blind faith, then we would want to see our instructors in a street fight before we signed on.....

If you want the ability to use pressure points or nerve points or whatever you want to call them, in a real fight, then you have to TRAIN CORRECTLY & REALISTICALLY, for a long time. Nothing worth having comes easy.

--Dave


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 16, 2006)

> begin with some level of blind faith,


-Speak for yourself.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 16, 2006)

I'd agree with RoninPimp on this one. Blind faith is not what someone who comes for self defense lessons wants. They tried that when they prayed to God to have the attacker spare their life, or passive resistance of talking your way out of it (or something to that effect). Those people want to see it and know it will work the next time their backside depends on it.


----------



## JitsuAddict (Apr 16, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Yes, pressure points are easy to hit, IF YOU TRAIN CORRECTLY & REALISTICALLY.
> 
> If you want the ability to use pressure points or nerve points or whatever you want to call them, in a real fight, then you have to TRAIN CORRECTLY & REALISTICALLY, for a long time. Nothing worth having comes easy.
> 
> --Dave


 
very true, at my dojo, sensei always emphasises strike points. even without PP's if if you want uke's balance behind them, you are not going to punch to the stomach causing them to lean forward. to use PP's effectively u must train using them, see how uke reacts and use that to your advantage if needed. btw there is an intense PP at the base of the neck (the soft dent in the middle) which if u push in and down with some force hurts like mad. be careful and enjoy


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

First I will say that I beleive in pressure points having seen, felt and used them. So I am not downgrading them, or doubting those that train with them. If you put the time, and effort into it, showing your dedication, I say God Bless You!

Some points to consider in terms of realism. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to ruffle feathers, but, just trying to help out, as I've seen the "Training theory" people in action constantly, and have seen the results.

The fact that your posture having to be correct is everything shows it's weakness in terms of reality. Nothing is everything due to the fact that nothing is or remains constant. What comes the closest to everything is BALANCE. If you are off balance everything else: posture, strikes, etc.. goes to crap. (It applies mentally, and spiritually as well). This is your flaw. For real, your attacker decides where, when, and how the event will go down. You will be caught off balance, no matter how hard you train! 

Also consider another reality: Hardly anything ever goes the way you train for-- too many variables, none  or very little of which you'll have control over, also those variables keep changing, second to second.

There's also a person's physiological responses. They are different for each person, add to it drugs and alcohol, the chances of pulling PP's off decreases. 

There are correct angles etc.. involoved in using them, correct posture or not. Bad idea to get into a fixated mind set of targeting those little dots on the body. People get ears ripped off, groins destroyed, noses broke etc.. and keep fighting. Those are big areas to hit, and they are difficult  to get to for real by themselves.

For the sake of reality, keep it simple and straight forward!

Everyone be safe!


----------



## marlon (Apr 17, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -If he means an alive RESISTING opponent then I'm good. But when is kata practiced with resistance?


 
Kata should always have a component of practice that includes a partner.  A good uke will "up" the level of resistence as you prasctice in order to help you improve.  Otherwise there is no kata...only empy movement

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

Agreed, that will help more than solo training. But, be careful. A partner adding resistance isn't the same as for real. Plus they have a tendency to "go with the flow". Meaning, for example, subconsiously going in the direction of that wrist lock, or starting to fall, just before that sweep etc.. We have all experienced that in training. No one wants to get hurt, or hurt their partner.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 17, 2006)

JitsuAddict said:
			
		

> very true, at my dojo, sensei always emphasises strike points. even without PP's if if you want uke's balance behind them, you are not going to punch to the stomach causing them to lean forward. to use PP's effectively u must train using them, see how uke reacts and use that to your advantage if needed. btw there is an intense PP at the base of the neck (the soft dent in the middle) which if u push in and down with some force hurts like mad. be careful and enjoy


 
If you think that hurts, try pushing in and down to one side. Here you will find a whole new world of pain 

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> If you think that hurts, try pushing in and down to one side. Here you will find a whole new world of pain
> 
> --Dave


 
You'll find an even more painful world, trying to pull that off on a cold snowy day, we're your both dressed warmly, cushioning your bodies, and sliding around on snow and ice.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 17, 2006)

> The fact that your posture having to be correct is everything shows it's weakness in terms of reality. Nothing is everything due to the fact that nothing is or remains constant. What comes the closest to everything is BALANCE. If you are off balance everything else: posture, strikes, etc.. goes to crap. (It applies mentally, and spiritually as well). This is your flaw. For real, your attacker decides where, when, and how the event will go down. You will be caught off balance, no matter how hard you train!


 
Hang on, if you're off balance, it means your posture is wrong. Without posture, you can't have balance.



> Also consider another reality: Hardly anything ever goes the way you train for-- too many variables, none or very little of which you'll have control over, also those variables keep changing, second to second.


 
Which is why you train to either maintain, or regain posture!!



> There's also a person's physiological responses. They are different for each person, add to it drugs and alcohol, the chances of pulling PP's off decreases.


 
These things should have NO effect on your posture. as to the effectiveness of PPs, why not ask certain members of this board who work as LEOs and use PPs everyday.



> There are correct angles etc.. involoved in using them, correct posture or not. Bad idea to get into a fixated mind set of targeting those little dots on the body. People get ears ripped off, groins destroyed, noses broke etc.. and keep fighting. Those are big areas to hit, and they are difficult to get to for real by themselves.


 
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Let me say this, If you maintain correct and functional posture, then the angles and directions of each point will be presented to you, by the reaction to your strikes by your opponent.
It's not about fixating on points, it's about targeting. And you are targeting areas that are as big as an eye.
All of those things cause pain. Whilst pain can be a good thing, if your technique relies on pain to succeed, then it is doomed to fail. PPs do not neccessarily cause pain, what they do cause is anatomical weakness in areas that can and do have an effect on the postural integrity of your opponent, there by negating his ability to continue fighting effectively.
Can you punch someone in the nose or on the chin or smack them in the ear? If you can then you can target nerve points.



> For the sake of reality, keep it simple and straight forward!


 
How simple do you want it? Hit nerve points effectively and people fall down. The most important part of hitting nerve points effectively is to maintain postural integrity.



> Everyone be safe!


 
That is another subject entirely. 

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Hang on, if you're off balance, it means your posture is wrong. Without posture, you can't have balance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Sorry to disagree, but, to move into that correct posture, you must first be in balance. If your stumbling, you can forget about settling. If you're caught off balance--and you will be, good luck trying to regain it. Much easier said than done! If you are off balance, you can't target effectively.

Security and LEO's while greatly appreciated have no say really. They have numbers to help them, guns, pepper spray, and night sticks. Their scenarios are responding to an attack against another, easily putting them into position to use PP's.

Your right about the correct posture leading to everything else, but that is the real key, isn't it? For real, your opponent Decides where, when, and how, so you will be off balance. You can only respond for real, not act (unless you picked the fight), so you're already a step behind, or at a disadvantage.

Can you hit araes-- Yes! Is it easy, even for the big targets, let alone little eyes, which may be covered by a thick jacket and sweater, NO!

Sorry again, but eventually pain is involved. You have to hurt your attacker to get them to stop, or they keep fighting.

I wish it were that simple.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

I understand what you are saying, as Ive said, I have experience in this. Your posture is the key, agreed. However, that's also the weakness. You can't settle into, and maintain that, when you're caught off, by an attacker. Enviromental factors (not present in dojo's) might not allow it either. It's just not that simple.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 17, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Can you explain the difference to us?
> 
> Jeff


 
Well basically, accu points are for healing purposes, and the ones we use for combat are for hurting. In some cases their locations differ by only millimetres. The methods of activation are different. And I guess more importantly, the points taught in "Kyusho" classes are all located on nerves. Whereas some of the points you'll find on accu charts, and taught in DimMak as well, do not effect nerves but interfere in some way with other bodily functions.

It is quite complex, and I am still very much a beginner when it comes to explaining in detail, but the more in depth studies of pressure points for combat, also take into account the 3 circulatory systems. They being Blood, Lymph, and Bio Energy/Chi.

Hope this helps
--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 17, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Sorry to disagree, but, to move into that correct posture, you must first be in balance. If your stumbling, you can forget about settling. If you're caught off balance--and you will be, good luck trying to regain it. Much easier said than done! If you are off balance, you can't target effectively.
> 
> Security and LEO's while greatly appreciated have no say really. They have numbers to help them, guns, pepper spray, and night sticks. Their scenarios are responding to an attack against another, easily putting them into position to use PP's.
> 
> ...


 

Do you train to win?

If you take this attitude with you into the street, I have two words for you....

*YOU LOSE!!*

--Dave


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 17, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I understand what you are saying, as Ive said, I have experience in this. Your posture is the key, agreed. However, that's also the weakness. You can't settle into, and maintain that, when you're caught off, by an attacker. Enviromental factors (not present in dojo's) might not allow it either. It's just not that simple.


 
You may be knocked off balance but it is possible to regain it.  Maintain your composure, stabilize your balance - important parts of kempo.

Your attacker's balance and posture is also very important.


----------



## DavidCC (Apr 17, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -If he means an alive RESISTING opponent then I'm good. But when is kata practiced with resistance?


 
The study of kata is not limited to just perfroming the kata. You take a piece of the kata, perhaps it is re-aranged or in their exactly, and practice these movements as a self-defense technique. The most obvious, exact pieces are called "bunkai" although this term is usaully also applied by people who don;t speak Japanese to mean any breakdwon of a kata.

So it is possible to practice the bunkai against fully resistant attackers.  look at many of the threads started by upnorthkyosa, where he shows the kata and the some breakdowns.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Do you train to win?
> 
> If you take this attitude with you into the street, I have two words for you....
> 
> ...


 
Do you, or have you ever had real fights outside of training? 

If not, and you beleive it's easy, you'll be in for a shocker!

(also, losing is a part of *reality*, I 've gotten the better, and been on the other end, nothing wrong with that.)


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> You may be knocked off balance but it is possible to regain it. Maintain your composure, stabilize your balance - important parts of kempo.
> 
> Your attacker's balance and posture is also very important.


 
I agree with that, and have said so already. All I said was it's not that easy for real, against an attacker, as they have caught you off balance, and are on top of you before you can respond. You are one step behind them, reacting to their action.  (unless you picked the fight)


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

Let's be realistic here. Anyone can settle and do their thing easily when they see it coming, or know it's coming. We're also all good in the dojo, or wherever we train. But, let's not kid ourselves, or anyone who is just reading our posts. Reality isn't Theories! It is what it is! We don't live in Candy Land. I agree training hard is almost all we have to rely on, and I do agree with training hard. But, reality almost never goes the way you train.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Do you, or have you ever had real fights outside of training?


 
To my shame, yes. I grew up with a big mouth and an even bigger attitude.



> If not, and you beleive it's easy, you'll be in for a shocker!


 
Isn't that why we do reality training?



> (also, losing is a part of *reality*, I 've gotten the better, and been on the other end, nothing wrong with that.)


 
Hmm, I hope you're not saying, "There's nothing wrong with losing."
The only time that applies is in sparring and tournaments. And the wrong gets wronger(hey I invented a word?!?), if the bad guy is armed.

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I agree with that, and have said so already. All I said was it's not that easy for real, against an attacker, as they have caught you off balance, and are on top of you before you can respond. You are one step behind them, reacting to their action. (unless you picked the fight)


 
That's why you need to respond, not react. Action beats reaction every time, therefore we need to take the initiative from our attacker. So that he is the one reacting. That's why you train like it's real. So, when it is real, you'll do it like you trained.

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> To my shame, yes. I grew up with a big mouth and an even bigger attitude.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

I hear ya there! Being the smallest didn't help either! lol!

Yes, I train the same way. Just trying to point out that it's still not the same. (but, it's all we have)
The losing I referred to was in regular fights, back in the day. If they are armed, Yeah! Don't lose!


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> That's why you need to respond, not react. Action beats reaction every time, therefore we need to take the initiative from our attacker. So that he is the one reacting. That's why you train like it's real. So, when it is real, you'll do it like you trained.
> 
> --Dave


 
A response is a reaction. You can only take the initiative if you were aware in ther first place. You won't be for real! They pick where, when and how. Again, training is close, but, not the same.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Let's be realistic here. Anyone can settle and do their thing easily when they see it coming, or know it's coming. We're also all good in the dojo, or wherever we train. But, let's not kid ourselves, or anyone who is just reading our posts. Reality isn't Theories! It is what it is! We don't live in Candy Land. I agree training hard is almost all we have to rely on, and I do agree with training hard. But, reality almost never goes the way you train.


 
Handsword, I am wondering, what style do you train in? Is this negative outlook a part of that style, or is that just your interpretation?
If I had your attitude to my own ability, I would buy a gun and sit in my lounge room with the gun pointed at the door, ready to deal with whoever or what ever came through it.

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

Is the "training is everything" mindset part of your style? If so, I suggest you quit, and get into to something that is real, like bouncing at a club or something. At least mine comes from a lot of fighting experience. You will be caught, when it's for real. You' re not always able to be aware.

If I added your mindset, I would get killed.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> A response is a reaction. You can only take the initiative if you were aware in ther first place. You won't be for real! They pick where, when and how. Again, training is close, but, not the same.


 
Don't you train environmental awareness?

If not, you should. Everybody should!!

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

Yes, but, the real thing is not the same! 

Please come out of the dojo sir. All youn keep talking about is training and fighting when you were younger. It all helps but, you need some real experience, with all due respect.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

My friend has the perfect answer. He's a marine, they're trained like you wouldn't beleive, for every conceivable situation. Like he said, it all goes to crap, when for real, your copter gets shot down, before the real engagement.  You can't train for reality, you can only experience it


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Is the "training is everything" mindset part of your style? If so, I suggest you quit, and get into to something that is real, like bouncing at a club or something. At least mine comes from a lot of fighting experience. You will be caught, when it's for real. You' re not always able to be aware.
> 
> If I added your mindset, I would get killed.


 
How real would you like it?
5 years as a security guard on mobile patrols. Banks, bonded warehouses, and drug manufacturing companies. Dealing with armed felons, drug addicts and other nefarious types.

One other point, I never carried a gun. All I had was a big torch and that attitude I told you about earlier 

Fights? Yeah, been there done that! Injured? Many times. Lose? Rarely, but still more often than I would have liked. 
Solution? Train harder!!

Oh, by the way - this mindset is the reason I'm still here. 

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> How real would you like it?
> 5 years as a security guard on mobile patrols. Banks, bonded warehouses, and drug manufacturing companies. Dealing with armed felons, drug addicts and other nefarious types.
> 
> One other point, I never carried a gun. All I had was a big torch and that attitude I told you about earlier
> ...


 
If you did all that, then I'm sure you were caught when it happened for real, and your training didn't cover it. You had to adapt to the situation.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> My friend has the perfect answer. He's a marine, they're trained like you wouldn't beleive, for every conceivable situation. Like he said, it all goes to crap, when for real, your copter gets shot down, before the real engagement. You can't train for reality, you can only experience it


 
Ahh see, theres the problem. I am a civilian. I walk but don't march. I drive a car, not a chopper. When things go to hell in my little patch, I'm not likely to be under fire. Guns aren't as prevalent here downunder. So I train for what I'm likely to face. Your marine buddy is right, because his reality is not and never will be mine. 

--Dave


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 18, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> If you did all that, then I'm sure you were caught when it happened for real, and your training didn't cover it. You had to adapt to the situation.


 
Ok, now I get it. We're saying the same things, it's just coming out different.

My point is that the training I do, allowed me to adapt. If I didn't train the way I have, I would end up the way you say. 

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

We are saying the same thing! I have been trying to get that across! I agree about the training! I get from your posts that we have the same mindset, and personality. Have a cold one on me brother! It's too hot over there to get so bothered-- LOL!


----------



## ppko (Apr 24, 2006)

Wow a lot has happened in 12 days or whenever the last time I was on.  A few good points masde by everyone, but some things need to be touched on.  Dave made some great points on body posture and after a little bit of bickering everyone came to agreement.  Body alignment of not only you but your opponent is a basic and important part of anyones training and should be one of the most important things anyone learns.  If you are not training against a resisting opponent than how do you know if what you are doing works, in the dojo it is harder to get a technique off if the opponent knows what is coming this also has to come into play.  Want to know if what you do really works out of nowhere attack one of your students (nothing serious a push or grab) and see how they respond, as you can practice preassault ques as much as you want but you  may not always see the attack coming.  Kata is no more than shadowboxing, and both should be done with a real opponent eventually.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 24, 2006)

ppko said:
			
		

> Wow a lot has happened in 12 days or whenever the last time I was on. A few good points masde by everyone, but some things need to be touched on. Dave made some great points on body posture and after a little bit of bickering everyone came to agreement. Body alignment of not only you but your opponent is a basic and important part of anyones training and should be one of the most important things anyone learns. If you are not training against a resisting opponent than how do you know if what you are doing works, in the dojo it is harder to get a technique off if the opponent knows what is coming this also has to come into play. Want to know if what you do really works out of nowhere attack one of your students (nothing serious a push or grab) and see how they respond, as you can practice preassault ques as much as you want but you may not always see the attack coming. Kata is no more than shadowboxing, and both should be done with a real opponent eventually.


 
PPKO, it's not often that I agree with you, but this is one of those times where we are in complete agreement.

When I was training in EPAK, from the minute you walked into the studio, you had to be on guard. Any time a higher rank walked past you, you had to be prepared to defend yourself. And tip tap was not permitted, the higher the rank, the harder you were expected to hit. Hey Handsword, this is how you train to gain posture, no matter what gets thrown at you. And when you play this way, the real stuff doesn't phase you because you get hit that hard when you play 

The only thing I disagree with PPKO on is, 





> Kata is no more than shadowboxing


 Kata is a whole lot more than shadowboxing. Unfortunately, this is something that has to be discovered. No matter how you try to teach this concept, students just don't get it until they get it... 

--Dave


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 24, 2006)

I agree that it helps. As I said I agree with the training thing. My points were about comparing training and reality, so you must keep in mind that the mindset is different. You expected to be attacked at the dojo everytime a higher rank walked by. You don't think the same way, just running to the store, or something like that. A hard hit, from Dojo people, is not the same as an all out assault, on the street.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 24, 2006)

We caught all the fish that we're going too. Let's not open up another can of worms.


----------



## hunt68 (Nov 21, 2008)

just wondering does any one know a dojo where i can study this in norther va on any where in va


----------



## DavidCC (Nov 24, 2008)

*Nadeem Ansari
*Location: Gainesville (Virginia)
Training Instructor Level 3
Certified to Instruct through Level 3
www.kihenryu.com


----------



## Chitmunk (Dec 9, 2008)

Something I would like to put out there, the reason you train in a controlled enviroment is to implement the mindset and reactions you need in the uncontrolled enviroment.  An example of what I mean is easily seen in contact sports, let's use the sport of wrestling.  In practice you train the techniques perfectly with very little resistence from your partner before you get to live drills so you know how the move works and feels in a perfect situation.  But that is what makes the move effective in a less than perfect situation, if you didn't know and train the move correctly in the controlled enviroment you would not be able to use it effectivly in the uncontrolled one.  Pressure points can definitely enhance the effectiveness of any technique, I spend allot of time on grappling and manipulation techniques myself and I find that my knowledge of pressure points to be inexpendable knowledge because they help to "agressivly coax" your opponent into the position you wish them to be into so you are no longer the one reacting, but can take action and begin to control the encounter, which is what the defender should be doing from the moment he/she finds out that they are under attack.  Now the only way to make such surgical strikes, like pressure point inherintly (sp?) are, is to train them intensively so when the moment comes that a strike using one presents itself you don't have to think about it the mind and body will just do what they are supposed to, accurately and effectivly.  as for pressure points being all over the body, don't for get the point mid-ribcage, slightly below the armpit, on the inside of the thigh, just under the bicep, in the pit of the elbow, the instep of the foot, the point mid forearm along the inner bone (palms facing backward), sides of the neck (particularly effective in grappling arts), pluse the like hundred thousand (exsaduration... I have no clue how to really spell that) that are on the head and face.  I know there are many more I just don't know what they are.  I agree that limiting your number of techniques to a coherent effective set is advisable, but any knowledge is good knowledge to have, if you only base your style on one principle you can be easily negated and made ineffective, but by training in all aspects (pp's, locks and holds, power strikes, ect...) you allow yourself to be able to adapt to any situation and will have weapons available no matter how your opponent is making you react and the more uses you have for each weapon will increase your posibility of victory.  Wow this one was long...


----------

