# Modern Arnis question



## Fightfan00 (Sep 28, 2003)

Can anyone tell me what Tapi-Tapi is?I was reading the curriculum for modern arnis and came across the trem.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 28, 2003)

Try these threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=5330

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=3710

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=1796

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=1534

:asian:


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## arnisador (Sep 28, 2003)

You'll find lots of info. if you search this forum. The usual translation is "counter-for-counter" and it's a series of drills in Modern Arnis.


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## Cruentus (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *You'll find lots of info. if you search this forum. The usual translation is "counter-for-counter" and it's a series of drills in Modern Arnis. *



* Evolution of Tapi-Tapi *

Wanna hear something interesting? "Tapi-Tapi" does not actually translate to "counter for counter." I thought it ment that also when Professor was alive, but as it turns out, tapi-tapi doesn't directly translate to counter for counter in Cebueno, Taglog, or in any of the other dialects as far as I know.

In Cebueno (and I think Taglog also, but do not quote me on this) it actually means "to pass." In Cebu specifically, it is generally refered to when you pass the opponents stick hand at the wrist when the opponent is trying to puno-strike you. 

Now this makes sense, when you think about it. How did "Tapi-Tapi" start off? It was a drill where you and a partner performed single sinawali w/ one stick (usually...we also had 2 stick against one stick stuff later). Then one person would enter with a puno strike, and the other would "pass" (either in front of their face, or pat down) and counter with a puno. So you and your partner would now be throwing a furry of Puno's at each other while parrying and "passing" each others puno strike, until one person would finally "break" by posting on the attacking hand with the live hand and striking at the knee (#9); which put you back at single sinawali w/ your partner, thus completing the cycle.

Now from that drill, Tapi-Tapi evolved (as Modern Arnis always did). So, after one person enter's and puno's, the other person now counters with a strike (#1 or #2). Then we learned "pre-sets" from the drill. These presets often consisted of us grabing the stick from the #1 or#2 and then baiting with a strike that allows our partner to grab our wrist. Then we would trap or lock from this bait. We had a bunch of different "presets" from this drill.

Now in both methods above, usually one person was "the driver" or the person who dominated the drill. This drill evolved even more, to where there was no driver. Anyone could enter, and anyone could try to counter. This basically turned into a controlled "free sparring" or "free-play" at this point. 

Now, the Tapi-Tapi exercise was a great seminar teaching tool. Professor had a horrible time teaching the "countering the counter" concept to people who could only see him a few times a year. Granted, there were some who followed him on his circuit and got more time in then a couple times a year, but this was not the majority. People had a hard time grasping the concept. Tapi-Tapi was exciting to Professor because he could now teach the average Joe off the street with no experience the concept of countering the counter through the drill portion and preset's in one seminar. They might not be able to "free-play" by the end of the seminar, but they will at least understand the basic concept. Professor was very passionate about this exercise because of this. He loved the fact that he could watch his students progress before his eyes like never before.

* Now...how do I know...? *

How do I know the fact that "Tapi-Tapi" doesn't mean "Counter for Counter?" Simple: I asked a realiable source who speaks both Cebueno and some Taglog. I don't mean to drag him into this, but it was my Balintawak instructor. I was curious one day, I believe it was my 2nd or 3rd session right in the beginning of my training, so I asked what "tapi-Tapi" translated too. Mind you, his English is a bit better then Remy's was. He said it means "to pass." Now, I was confused because I had never heard this before. I figured it ment something like "counter-counter," so I was suprised at the answer. So I asked, "What do you mean?" He said, "like this" and he slowly threw a puno strike at me, and guided my live hand "to pass" his stick hand in both directions (up in front of my face, and down); this was the same motion we did when "Tapi-Tapi" was first used in the drill!!! (Disclaimer: I don't believe the first part of tapi-tapi was always called tapi-tapi when it was invented, but as Modern Arnis veterans will remember with a smile, Professor had a habit of changing names of things all the time. The point here is, that first part was called tapi-tapi at one time, before it evolved to the pre-sets, and the semi-sparring) Now, my Balintawak teacher knew Remy Presas, but he did not know his art, or that his explaination of "Tapi-Tapi" was identicle to how we first learned the drill.

So, I maintain that "Tapi-Tapi" does in fact mean "to pass" or "pass-pass." If you don't buy my story as proof, you can check some of the different filipino dialects. You will be hard pressed to find one that translates "Tapi-Tapi" as "counter-counter."

* So...why/how the confusion? *

I can't say this as fact, but here is what I believe happened. I believe that Professor invented the drill using the "pass-pass" translation, which is logical because this was the filipino explaination of the movement. As time went on, he never bothered to change it or seperate it after the drill evolved to presets and semi-sparring. Also Professor knew many different languages and liked to play on words, and we all know he had a sense of humor, so the "tap, tap" or clicking of the sticks sounded like "tappy, tappy" so I am sure that he felt this was a fitting name for this reason as well. I actually remember in the beginning of the evolution of this drill people thought that it was named tapi-tapi because of the noise it made. This is funny to look back on today.

Now, the above may be true, but how did things get confused? Well, to help explain, here were some common Professor quotes: 

"You will learn the Tapi-Tapi so you can counter the counter!"

"You must learn the counter-for-counter. That is why you must do the Tapi-Tapi!"

"The heart of the art is in the Tapi-Tapi"

I never once heard him say directly that Tapi-Tapi directly translated to "counter-counter," or "counter for counter." I will remind people here, though, that Professor was gifted, but he was not a linguist or historian. He may or may not even knew linguistically how Tapi-Tapi translated and from what dialect, for all we know. But, I do not remember him talking about how it translated, just what he wanted you to learn from the exercise. What we were supposed to learn was the most important thing.

He always stated that the 2 most important things in his art was "The Flow" and "Countering the Counter." It has always been that way. Professor believed that "The art of Tapi-Tapi" could teach someone the concept of countering the counter. So he would say things like what is quoted above, because he was passionate about Tapi-Tapi and the potential it had to teach the beginner the 2 most important concepts of his art. If the heart of the art is in Tapi-Tapi, then what is "in" tapi-tapi? The Flow and Countering the counter is "in" tapi tapi, if learned properly, of course! 

What it does NOT mean, however, is that Tapi-Tapi (the exercise) IS the heart of the art. Tapi Tapi is NOT the art itself. This does not mean that you can't understand Modern Arnis w/o Tapi-Tapi, an exercise that was invented earlier, but undeveloped until the early 90's. If it ment any of these things then Professor would have/should have considered changing the name of Modern Arnis to "Tapi Tapi"; however, this idea was never considered. All that it does mean is that through the drill/exercise, you can LEARN what the art is really about.

So, how did this translation/concept get confused? First of all, language barriers played a major role. It is very difficult to decifer that "You will learn Tapi-Tapi so you can counter the counter" doesn't mean Tapi-Tapi = counter counter, unless you know the language ahead of time. Secondly, there are many people out there who NEED Tapi-Tapi to mean counter-counter to fit their own personal agenda. You see, if Tapi-Tapi means counter-counter directly, then that means that Tapi-Tapi IS the heart of the art, and that without it you have no Modern Arnis. They NEED to believe that by perfecting Tapi-Tapi, they have mastered Modern Arnis. Why? I do not know. Needs are different for each individual. People have different needs, and sometimes they let their needs overshadow the facts, and the truth.

So, I have conjectures as to why, but I really don't know for sure why it is so important for people to believe that "Tapi-Tapi" means "counter for counter," but I know that for many, their world seems to revolve around it. I also know that I am exposing myself by posting the facts here to ridicule and hatred by my contemporaries. For some, it is so vital that Tapi-Tapi = Counter for counter = heart of the art, that they are going to vehemently and perhaps angerly oppose everything I am saying. Well, people will have to find the truth for themselves, and I cannot change anyones mind. You can force the student to go to school but you can't make him think. But, for those of you who are just looking to understand, but aren't sure what to think, just look for yourself to see if you can find where "Tapi-Tapi" translated to "counter-counter" in any of the Filipino Dialects. When you find that it doesn't, then this should lead you to some answers.

As for me, I know that some will disagree w/ me, but please understand that I have no Ill intentions. I am just posting here what I believe to be true from what I know.

Thank you,

PAUL
:asian:


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## Fightfan00 (Sep 29, 2003)

WOW GUYS!Thanks for all the great information!


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

I phrased my answer carefully as "_usually translated as_" because I knew there was an issue!


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## Cruentus (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I phrased my answer carefully as "usually translated as" because I knew there was an issue! *



I figured you knew, but that was for the benefit of people who might not know!

:asian:


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## Dan Anderson (Sep 29, 2003)

*"And I will present to all of you the art of tapi-tapi: How to lock and control the opponent with the cane and without the cane."*

This is the second sentence Remy Presas speaks in the newest tape series, tape #1 entitled _Modern Arnis Mano de Tranka Introduction to Tapi-Tapi._  How's that for a definition directly from the source?

I believe this tape series is still locked up until the will business is straightened out.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *"And I will present to all of you the art of tapi-tapi: How to lock and control the opponent with the cane and without the cane."
> 
> This is the second sentence Remy Presas speaks in the newest tape series, tape #1 entitled Modern Arnis Mano de Tranka Introduction to Tapi-Tapi.  How's that for a definition directly from the source?*



Good deal!



> *
> I believe this tape series is still locked up until the will business is straightened out.*



We could certainly use some news on that.


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## Guro Harold (Sep 30, 2003)

The literal translation of "tranka" from an online Tagalog->English dictionary means *to Lock*.

Another site has the following definition of Tapi-Tapi:

"Tapi-Tapi.....*checking; a series of parries & blocks*." 

Again, these are literal definitions, which are different than executed, derived, or evolved definitions.


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## Cruentus (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Palusut _
> *The literal translation of "tranka" from an online Tagalog->English dictionary means to Lock.
> 
> Another site has the following definition of Tapi-Tapi:
> ...



Those are all good definitions, from what I have heard. My "to pass" or "pass-pass" could be the same as "parry-parry" or "check-check." But I agree that it is refered to as a continuing set of parries or checks.

Tranka also translates to "lock" as I have been told as well.

:asian:


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## DoxN4cer (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> * Evolution of Tapi-Tapi
> 
> Wanna hear something interesting? "Tapi-Tapi" does not actually translate to "counter for counter." I thought it ment that also when Professor was alive, but as it turns out, tapi-tapi doesn't directly translate to counter for counter in Cebueno, Taglog, or in any of the other dialects as far as I know.
> ...



You are correct in part Paul. Tapi-tapi in many dialects, including Cebuano, Illongo and Tagaolg, really means to quickly pat or to tap repeatedly, or in FMA terms to check and re-check.

Tim Kashino


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## loki09789 (Sep 30, 2003)

Basically, in the literary/linguistic circles what is happening here is trade language.  Doctors use operation for a specific purpose that is very different in application from a military operation, but in the end they are both 'literally' defined as an operation.  

The 'literal' definition of any word or phrase from one language/application/group to another will not fit the exact usage of the group.  Ultimately, it is important that when you use Tapi Tapi with your group, they imagine the same meaning that you intend.  As long as that is happening, the rest is academic.

Paul Martin


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## Cruentus (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Basically, in the literary/linguistic circles what is happening here is trade language.  Doctors use operation for a specific purpose that is very different in application from a military operation, but in the end they are both 'literally' defined as an operation.
> 
> The 'literal' definition of any word or phrase from one language/application/group to another will not fit the exact usage of the group.  Ultimately, it is important that when you use Tapi Tapi with your group, they imagine the same meaning that you intend.  As long as that is happening, the rest is academic.
> ...



I agree somewhat in that if Modern Arnis people want to use the term "tapi-tapi" to describe counter for counter today, I have no problem with that; it is just semantics.

However, when decifering what Professor said/ment, I think that the "real" definition, and how it was truely used by Remy is of vital importance in fully understanding our history, rather then changing it on accident (or purposely to fullfil an agenda).

:asian:


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## Cruentus (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *You are correct in part Paul. Tapi-tapi in many dialects, including Cebuano, Illongo and Tagaolg, really means to quickly pat or to tap repeatedly, or in FMA terms to check and re-check.
> 
> Tim Kashino *



Hi Tim,

I know that this is off subject, but have you gone to Europe yet? If so, hows the weather (and the chicks  ) :cheers:


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2003)

Paul,

Looks strange writing that down for someone else 

As an instructor and scholar of your art, absolutely it is important to realize what your source meant when he applied that term, but MA is a progressive art and doesn't 'counter for counter' as an explanation for what you are doing (as opposed to a definition of strict meaning) seem more fitting to RP's intent?  

I say this because RP was about innovation - once you got the basic... figure out the counter and then the technique is yours (paraphrased).  If this is the case, Tapi-Tapi 'techniques' could include everything that you do - if you can make it work it Tapi Tapi motion not just what was set down by RP.  

Besides which, RP didn't really work from a set curriculum so his terms and drills are open for interpretation to those who knew what he intended for each drill to develop.  

Paul Martin


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## Guro Harold (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *once you got the basic... figure out the counter and then the technique is yours (paraphrased).
> Paul Martin *



Hi Mr. Martin,

Just curious, have you ever watched Bobby Toboada's tape volume 2 because what you said was almost an exact quote. 

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Cruentus (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *Paul,
> 
> Looks strange writing that down for someone else
> ...


*

Almost...I see your point, but I still can't totally agree. His intent was indeed for the beginner to grasp the "counter for counter" concept through Tapi-Tapi. Tapi-Tapi is the Mercedez-Benz, but it is not the destination. You can take a Dump Truck, Porche, Honda, or Harley to get to the same destination. The destination being "counter for counter." In other words "Tapi-Tapi" is the means, but not the end. Some MA practitioners treat Tapi-Tapi as the end, which I think neglects other aspects of the art. 

The danger in believing Tapi-Tapi = Counter for Counter directly is a progressive problem by nature, also. Some people take this further to say Tapi-Tapi = Counter for Counter = Flow, as opposes to saying Tapi-Tapi is an exercise that can teach you counter-counter and flow. What happends with this, as I have mentioned, is that people then grow to believe not only that Tapi-Tapi is the end all be all, but that if you master Tapi-Tapi (no pun, or insult intended here for those who don a similer title), you have mastered Modern Arnis. Furthermore, what is believed is that w/o Tapi-Tapi, one cannot learn the flow or how to counter the counter, because the vehicle is not seperate from the destination in their minds.

If all of us believed that Tapi-Tapi = Counter-Counter = Flow, then our art would evolve to just "Tapi-Tapi" fairly quickly, and the rest of our art of Modern Arnis would suffer. Generations from now, if we all agreed with this, we would have no modern arnis, and only tapi-tapi. This, to me, is not progression. Progression is improving upon your art, Modern Arnis, as a whole, bringing your skill/art to higher levels. Progression is not focusing on only one exercise, neglecting the rest of the art. 

Hey...I understand that some people like their Mercedez-Benz, but sometimes you need a dump truck to get the job done! :cheers:




			I say this because RP was about innovation - once you got the basic... figure out the counter and then the technique is yours (paraphrased).  If this is the case, Tapi-Tapi 'techniques' could include everything that you do - if you can make it work it Tapi Tapi motion not just what was set down by RP.  

Besides which, RP didn't really work from a set curriculum so his terms and drills are open for interpretation to those who knew what he intended for each drill to develop.  

Paul Martin
		
Click to expand...

*
I agree with you here. It is about making the connection, innovation, etc. And, there is nothing wrong with using the Tapi-Tapi vehicle to get to your destination. I just feel that by narrowing it to ONLY one vehicle we neglect the rest of the art. :asian:


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## loki09789 (Oct 1, 2003)

Yes, I am level 1 cert. under Bobby and have his series.  I have heard the phrase more recently from Bobby, but Remy was a big advocate of that as well, and made similary (thus the paraphrase) statements at seminar.  I remember him phrasing it more combatively though.  His version was about getting beat by a technique and practicing that technique to understand it and then developing a reasonable counter so you can beat it the next time you see it... long way of saying the Bobby version.

On the point of Tapi-Tapi

You sort of made my point for me with the narrowing theme.  My interp. on Tapi-Tapi (and only my interp!) is that it is a drill AND a concept at the same time if you use the term to mean counter for counter in your class.  The term is thus broader and the drill is directly linked to the concept that way.  Students can then 'unlock the secret' (even though there are none) for themselves as they feel the concept creeping into their drill while they are improving.  How many "Oh Sh*&! moves have you done under pressure that seemed divinely inspired?  I use those to let students see that they are improving if they find themselves using a new technique instinctually during pressure drills like a Tapi-Tapi.

You are specifying 'flow' to be the goal that Tapi-Tapi will help you achieve.  Same idea different application of the wording.  I agree with your logic, I just apply it mentally in a different packaging.  I use it the way it works for me.

I tend to simplify the terminology to shorten the choice/learning menu for students.  In Balitawak, Cuentada is the Tapi -Tapi of the art.  Very similar in application and intent, but I apply the term as a concept that is understood through practicing the drill.

Question:  Does anyone know if RP modified, adopted Cuentada to develop his Tapi-Tapi, or was it an existing term/drill from a different art that RP studied?

The power of FMA over other arts is the room for personal discovery earlier in the ranking than in other arts.  The understanding that junior students get here is better than their rank equivelant in other more fixed arts.

Paul Martin


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## modarnis (Oct 1, 2003)

In my years of experience training in MA, traveling to various parts of the country to train with RP, and through  a multitude of discussions with practitioners, as a whole Modern Arnis is bogged down with terminology debates and personal quirks.

One of the reasons it is difficult  to even have an informed discussion about tapi-tapi or whatever other technique, drill, or concept is the fact that the Professor viewed everything from a much higher plane of observation.  He repeatedly reminded us that 'it was all the same'.  For him it was, his flow and his ability to counter for counter just happened.  

Regardless of what we call things, the ability to flow and counter comes through development of basics, footwork, setting appropriate range, and ultimately gaining a dominant position over the opponent.

The drill/Play/system/religion of tapi-tapi is one way to approach the teaching and practice of those concepts in an active and changing environment

Regards

Brett


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *. . .
> Question:  Does anyone know if RP modified, adopted Cuentada to develop his Tapi-Tapi, or was it an existing term/drill from a different art that RP studied?
> . . .
> Paul Martin *




Paul M, *( To many Pauls' in this place  *)

Tapi-Tapi has had many names, see some of the other threads, such as Semi Sparring. This would be the name I know from the 1970's. (* This does not invalidate any other name, just making a reference her *). So, Tapi-Tapi was not a brand new idea, unless you look at the the name and the marketing 

To me Abecedario are your basic stricks, this is our one through twelve striking and stepping. Did he ever have you strike and the other guy just block? Now in the Balintawak, I study through Manong (GM) Ted Buot, Abecedario is where the instructor strikes one through twelve at you and you block and counter strike back to the head on the same side as the stick is already.

Once again, "To ME", Seguidas is the Fundamentals out of order. Or Abecedario out of order. This is very similar in my mind to the begining of the semi-sparring drill and the tapi-tapi drill. They have a predefined set of moves, that can occur and yet they are not in any specific order.

Correidas, to me, is as my instructor has told me, the "mixing bowl". This is where you add in more techniques beyond the fundamentals and then put them into the mxing bowl. You do this by teaching a new one and then working it into the flow of techniques. This is the Correidas, and also where most people end up in the semi-sparring or tapi-tapi drill. 

Now within Correidas, their are two new concepts 
 Lansis and Timing.
 Lansis is the baiting of your opponent and timing is the execution of the technique at the proper time.

Now once again, in the semi-sparring / tapi-tapi drill you bait your partner, heck we all have heard this, right? "And now you bait your partner!" 

Cuentada is counting literally in a loose sort of way. Yet in Balintawak it is the planning stage and working your partner to move in a certain way so you can get a certain shot. Now this does use the Lansis and Timing from Correidas, yet this is not only one move ahead, this is chess, you can think 5 or 6 levels deep with all the possible combinations.

So, to now answer your question. No, I do not believe that GM R Presas adopted Cuentada as Tapi-Tapi.

More Later as I have to go teach now 

:asian:


(* Edited: Changed tis to this; the to they; tey to they; predefinde to predefined *)


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 10, 2005)

Anyone else would like to comment on Tapi-Tapi or Semi-Sparring?


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