# UFC and ninjitsu



## Kroy (Oct 4, 2003)

What was the name of the ninjitsu guy that got stomped at UFC 3 (I think it was 3) Was he well known?


----------



## pknox (Oct 4, 2003)

Not sure who you mean here.  Steve Jennum was in UFC 3, and he lists his arts as both Ninjutsu and TKD.  He was the only practitioner in that event to list his style as Ninjitsu.  He did actually tap his UFC 3 opponent in less than a minute and a half (Harold Howard), and was declared the winner of UFC 3, so I don't know if that's who you were looking for, because that's not exactly getting "stomped".  He also went on to win UFC 4 as well.  There was a Ninjitsu practitioner in UFC 2 named Scott Morris, who defeated Sean Daugherty in his first match, and was later beaten by a kickboxer named Pat Smith.


----------



## J-kid (Oct 4, 2003)

I know who you are talking about he faced the other guy charged him and got knocked/slamed down or something next thing you know he is getting punched on and elbowed on the ground and he is tapping.


----------



## Kroy (Oct 4, 2003)

No it wasnt Steve Jennum (he was pretty good) I'll have to probe a little deeper but I'm sure that there was some guy in the earlier UFC's that was Ninjitsu. I think it may have been Pat Smith that beat him.


----------



## pknox (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *No it wasnt Steve Jennum (he was pretty good) I'll have to probe a little deeper but I'm sure that there was some guy in the earlier UFC's that was Ninjitsu. I think it may have been Pat Smith that beat him. *



That's Scott Morris in UFC 2 -- see my post above.


----------



## Kroy (Oct 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> *That's Scott Morris in UFC 2 -- see my post above. *



I must be going blind.


----------



## pknox (Oct 4, 2003)

That's OK...we've all been there.


----------



## M F (Oct 5, 2003)

> He also went on to win UFC 4 as well.



Royce Gracie won UFC 4.  Jennum only won UFC 3.  He won a match in UFC 4 and withdrew due to injury, I believe.


----------



## pknox (Oct 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by M F _
> *Royce Gracie won UFC 4.  Jennum only won UFC 3.  He won a match in UFC 4 and withdrew due to injury, I believe. *



You are correct.  I mistyped - my post should have said "he went on to win _a match_ in UFC4 as well."  If I remember correctly, Royce choked Severn out in the final match after something like 15 minutes.


----------



## r erman (Oct 5, 2003)

Quick clarification.  Jennum claimed Ninjutsu in UFC 3.  In UFC 4 he claimed taijutsu, which is a generic term, synonomous with jujutsu, that is most often used to describe the unarmed(or lightly armed)methods of combat in ninpo.  I don't think he ever claimed TKD.


----------



## Kroy (Oct 5, 2003)

Has anyone ever what Jennum is up to since UFC 4?


----------



## Kroy (Oct 5, 2003)

You know the UFC has come along way since its genesis but I truly loved the old days when they put the different styles against each other. Truly brutal.:EG:


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *You know the UFC has come along way since its genesis but I truly loved the old days when they put the different styles against each other. Truly brutal.:EG: *



Yeah, I agree!  The old ones definately kicked butt!  Seems like everybody that fights now is pretty much from the same background.

Mike


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *Yeah, I agree!  The old ones definately kicked butt!  Seems like everybody that fights now is pretty much from the same background.
> 
> Mike *



That would be because the rules are designed to turn the "fight" into a submission grappling competition w/ strikes, but people did not realize this at first. It was funny to see unsuspecting stand-up stylists in the beginning who had no idea what they were getting into. It made for some interesting matches for sure.

Now, everybody knows what's up. Nobody would get into the cage w/o grappling experience now a days!


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *That would be because the rules are designed to turn the "fight" into a submission grappling competition w/ strikes, but people did not realize this at first. It was funny to see unsuspecting stand-up stylists in the beginning who had no idea what they were getting into. It made for some interesting matches for sure.
> 
> Now, everybody knows what's up. Nobody would get into the cage w/o grappling experience now a days! *



You're right!  It was funny to see stand up guys, get into the ring, thinking that the art that they spent the past x-number of years doing, was going to come out on top, only to very quickly end up on the ground, and flap around like a fish out of water.  Look at the 2nd UFC, Royce Gracies 1st fight with that Japanese guy.  

Mike


----------



## Kroy (Oct 6, 2003)

One of my favorites was when some big Judo/Jiujitsu practitioner elbowed Olando Weight (I think thats his name) into lala land.


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kroy _
> *One of my favorites was when some big Judo/Jiujitsu practitioner elbowed Olando Weight (I think thats his name) into lala land. *



Yes, that was Remco Pardeu (sp)  He wasnt that good on his feet, but once he closed the distance and hit the mat, that was the beginning of the end for Orlando!

Mike


----------



## blood shadow (Dec 2, 2007)

that was pretty bad.


----------



## WesternCiv (Dec 2, 2007)

IIRC Jennum listed his background as RBWI (Robert Bussey Warrior International).  

Or am I thinking of someone else?


----------



## stone_dragone (Dec 2, 2007)

I see this was resurrected from a long time ago...

I'd like to point out that Mr. Jennum was brought in as an alternate to replace Gracie following the Kimo Leopoldo vs. Royce Gracie bout where Gracie won but was too injured to move on to the finals.

In this event Jennum only won one match in the days of the Tournament style UFC where you had to go through several folks in one day...it jsut happened to be the right one.

Howard was (perhaps still is) a phenomenal fighter who's goal was to fight Gracie, and that was it, he figured it wasn't worth getting all bloodied up for not fighting Gracie...at least that was his story in '95 when I got to talk to him at a Buffalo Tournament...very big man.


----------



## Omar B (Dec 2, 2007)

Yeah, I miss the old UFC when it was more one style against the other.  It's all got this sameness now that takes some of the thrill out of it.


----------



## Bujingodai (Dec 4, 2007)

I agree, though I love the UFC alot. I miss the style vs style and round robin style of beatdown. It was more taxing.
Now everyone uses the same style of moves, so much so the commentator can predict what they are going to use.
I doubt the old schoolers would do well to be honest these days, just due to cardio and conditioning. Just look at gracie vs hughes


And lots of threads being brought back from the dead


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 4, 2007)

Bujingodai said:


> I agree, though I love the UFC alot. I miss the style vs style and round robin style of beatdown. It was more taxing.
> Now everyone uses the same style of moves, so much so the commentator can predict what they are going to use.
> I doubt the old schoolers would do well to be honest these days, just due to cardio and conditioning. Just look at gracie vs hughes
> 
> ...


What seems to have happened in the various MMA events is that they've found a handful of techniques and tactics from several martial arts disciplines (not individual styles, but categories) that work UNDER THE RULES OF THE EVENT.  The fighters and coaches have developed or selected training methods and regimens that successfully prepare their fighters for the events.

But, in doing so, they've lost distinguishing characteristics of any one style.  I'd personally love to see people using recognizable tactics and techniques from various martial arts in MMA.  I'd love to see a good judo player go up against a good Kempoist or a skilled jujitsu man face a good kickboxer.  Right now, I don't think that's going to happen.  The rules seem to favor decent striking moving into grappling towards a submission.  That's why (I think) most fighters use more of a wrestler's stance, for example.


----------



## ginshun (Mar 6, 2008)

Yes, Jennum was an instructor with Robert Bussey Warrior International prior to (and after) competing in the UFC.

Jennum actually replaced Frank Shamrock not Hoyce Gracie.  Frank was injured in his match vs. Felix Mitchell.  Nobody replaced Hoyce, he forfited his match to Harold Howard due to dehydration.  Jennum beat Howard in the final, Jennum's only match.

Jennum is currently a law enfocement officer in Omaha, Nebraska.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Mar 6, 2008)

ginshun said:


> Yes, Jennum was an instructor with Robert Bussey Warrior International prior to (and after) competing in the UFC.
> 
> Jennum actually replaced Frank Shamrock not Hoyce Gracie.  Frank was injured in his match vs. Felix Mitchell.  Nobody replaced Hoyce, he forfited his match to Harold Howard due to dehydration.  Jennum beat Howard in the final, Jennum's only match.
> 
> Jennum is currently a law enfocement officer in Omaha, Nebraska.



Frank, or Ken?


----------



## medic (Mar 6, 2008)

Ken was replaced.


----------



## DavidCC (Mar 6, 2008)

ginshun said:


> Yes, Jennum was an instructor with Robert Bussey Warrior International prior to (and after) competing in the UFC.
> 
> Jennum actually replaced Frank Shamrock not Hoyce Gracie. Frank was injured in his match vs. Felix Mitchell. Nobody replaced Hoyce, he forfited his match to Harold Howard due to dehydration. Jennum beat Howard in the final, Jennum's only match.
> 
> Jennum is currently a law enfocement officer in Omaha, Nebraska.


 
I talked to a police officer here in Omaha, NE about 2 years ago and she told me that Jennum does training on arrest and control procedures.  I don't know how frequently etc.  It wasn't clear if he was an officer or contracted, but if you say he's LEO I can't disagree.
We were at a Chuck Liddel autograph signing, waiting in line, and when we asked her what kind of training the OPD gets she knew his name and that he had been in the UFC.


----------



## ginshun (Mar 7, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Frank, or Ken?


 
Ooopps!  You are right, I meant to say Ken.


----------



## ginshun (Mar 7, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I talked to a police officer here in Omaha, NE about 2 years ago and she told me that Jennum does training on arrest and control procedures. I don't know how frequently etc. It wasn't clear if he was an officer or contracted, but if you say he's LEO I can't disagree.
> We were at a Chuck Liddel autograph signing, waiting in line, and when we asked her what kind of training the OPD gets she knew his name and that he had been in the UFC.


 
Its not like I know the guy personally or anything, so I can't say for sure, but there was a story that surfaced not too long ago about him being attached by some punk kids trying to rob him when he was off duty.

http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/12595306.html

Talk about your all time screw-ups when deciding who you are going to rob!!  Then again they are not criminals because of their big brains.


----------



## DavidCC (Mar 7, 2008)

I missed that, but nice article, it proves he is both a cop and trains them too 

It's surprising, the areas mentioned are not at all thought of a dangerous or likely places for muggings.


----------



## swiftpete (Mar 10, 2008)

It's pretty cool that he managed to evade their attack from the back. Shows his training has worked! I would've liked to have seen it in action.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Mar 11, 2008)

I wonder if that was sakki training? LOL just kidding.


----------



## allenjp (Apr 29, 2008)

Steve Jennum went on to fight in a no holds barred event against Marco Ruas in '96 and proceeded to get submitted by ground & pound in 1:45. I did some checking on RBWI. Robert Bussey claims to be one of the first men to bring togakure ryu back to the states, claims to have been trained in Japan by Masaaki Hatsumi, but his fighting style on his videos certainly looks nothing like the ninjutsu I have seen elsewhere...interesting that Jennum won his first fight with an armbar. The Gracies had me convinced that they invented that move...


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 28, 2008)

Well Steve Jennum is definitely one tough cop and competitor. But I came across this guy on YouTube and he seems to be a pretty tough cookie himself. I believe his name is Hardee Merritt of ToShin Do from the North Carolina Quest Center.


----------



## allenjp (May 29, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Well Steve Jennum is definitely one tough cop and competitor. But I came across this guy on YouTube and he seems to be a pretty tough cookie himself. I believe his name is Hardee Merritt of ToShin Do from the North Carolina Quest Center.


 
Yeah, I saw this a while ago. I wish it were more clear so we could see the actual techniques being used...I wonder if there is any verification of this guy being a To Shin Do practitioner?


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 29, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Yeah, I saw this a while ago. I wish it were more clear so we could see the actual techniques being used...I wonder if there is any verification of this guy being a To Shin Do practitioner?


 

Yes he is a To Shin Do practicioner. He is in some of SKH's video magazines DVDs. I believe he is on February 2007 Grappler standing takedown DVD and on March 2007 Countering other Martial Arts DVD. Also he is co-owner of the NC Quest center and I agree with you on the subquality nature of the fight clip it was very blurry.


----------



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Yes he is a To Shin Do practicioner. He is in some of SKH's video magazines DVDs. I believe he is on February 2007 Grappler standing takedown DVD and on March 2007 Countering other Martial Arts DVD. Also he is co-owner of the NC Quest center and I agree with you on the subquality nature of the fight clip it was very blurry.


 
It's interesting to me that a To Shin Do practitioner would participate in this type of event. I don't think any member of the Bujinkan would ever do that. It's good to see him have some success though.


----------



## rutherford (May 30, 2008)

allenjp said:


> It's interesting to me that a To Shin Do practitioner would participate in this type of event. I don't think any member of the Bujinkan would ever do that. It's good to see him have some success though.



Why?

Members of the Bujinkan have and continue to engage in sport martial arts.

I'll give you that it is not an application considered often or a frequent part of training.  And for any real success, a practitioner has to be dedicated to their sport and seek outside conditioning, training, and coaching.  

But, the Bujinkan draws all kinds of people from around the world.  Some of them have an overlapping interest in martial sport, and develop that interest to one degree or another.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 30, 2008)

Yeah I agree even though personally I wouldn't do it just because of the risk of severe injury both short on long term. Not to mention that the money in MMA isn't as good as professional boxing.


----------



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

rutherford said:


> Why?
> 
> Members of the Bujinkan have and continue to engage in sport martial arts.
> 
> ...


 
Really? Anyone I would have heard of?


----------



## SageGhost83 (May 30, 2008)

Most of the Buj guys that I know just simply aren't interested in MMA. They are too focused on their own training. I personally don't think that it is an indictment of MMA or the Buj, I think that it just simply highlights the fact that not everybody is interested in the most popular thing and that not everybody wants to compete in the MMA scene.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 30, 2008)

I myself don't know of any Bujinkan practioner that does MMA. But if they do then its their choice and more power to them.


----------



## stone_dragone (May 31, 2008)

ginshun said:


> Jennum actually replaced Frank Shamrock not Hoyce Gracie.  Frank was injured in his match vs. Felix Mitchell.  Nobody replaced Hoyce, he forfited his match to Harold Howard due to dehydration.  Jennum beat Howard in the final, Jennum's only match.



Although not pertinent to the direction that this discussion has headed (and that's fine), I had to check some sources and verify for the record that it was, in fact Gracie, and not Shamrock that beat Kimo in UFC III and then had to withdraw.
http://www.weboshawa.com/sports/ufc/ufcmain.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_3
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?search=yes&EventID=9

Cheers!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 1, 2008)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I myself don't know of any Bujinkan practioner that does MMA. But if they do then its their choice and more power to them.


 
There is a couple though I do not know if they are competing any longer.  Sean Askew has some fights in Japan and there was another guy who also faught in Japan.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Jun 3, 2008)

To me its all good as long as they don't forget about the differences between sport and self defense. I always say that if you enjoy doing something then keep doing it.


----------



## Johnny-sama (Jun 19, 2008)

I wanted to do MMA at one point, even as a Bujinkan practitioner. I strongly believe that all martial arts have something good to offer, including MMA. Afterall, isn't it a "tenet" of Bujinkan to use the best weapon available to you? Why would I pass on MMA when it could potentially help me out of a sticky situation (especially when you're on the ground!)?

However, I still question Bujinkan practitioners who end up in the cage. Was it not taught to them to never fight a specialist with a weapon your enemy specializes in? Don't box with a boxer. Don't kick with a Taekwondo expert. Don't cage fight the MMA guys.

Rather, kick the boxer, MMA the TKD expert, and shoot the MMA guys.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Jun 27, 2008)

Well MMA offers competition between two evenly match individuals to see who will win the match. There is alot of real aggression, resistance and ability in those fighters. As long as they don't forget that they're not in the ring in a street fight or mulitple opponent fight I'm sure they are just as capable to defend themselves...


----------



## Chitmunk (Jul 28, 2008)

These days MMA has become a sport fighting style all it's own, if you havn't noticed most MMA participants don't have a particular style anymore.  If you go  an mma school you will be taught submissions, kickboxing, and basic bjj.  But when it comes down to it no matter what style you practice, a strong base in your style with an understanding of your opponents style can make you a very capable opponent.  I personally would like to see more "stylists" challenge the cage, but I doubt that it would really be allowed anymore because of the liability issues that would come up, especially from those who train in the more agressive disciplines.  A Ninjutsu practitioner who has a strong understanding of MMA practices could very well make a fine showing in the UFC even as it is today.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi (Aug 9, 2008)

Chitmunk said:


> These days MMA has become a sport fighting style all it's own, if you havn't noticed most MMA participants don't have a particular style anymore. If you go an mma school you will be taught submissions, kickboxing, and basic bjj. But when it comes down to it no matter what style you practice, a strong base in your style with an understanding of your opponents style can make you a very capable opponent. I personally would like to see more "stylists" challenge the cage, but I doubt that it would really be allowed anymore because of the liability issues that would come up, especially from those who train in the more agressive disciplines. A Ninjutsu practitioner who has a strong understanding of MMA practices could very well make a fine showing in the UFC even as it is today.


 
I agree but I always feel that MMA being created for the purpose of cage fighting has kept all the technical and physical aspects of the martial arts for the most part. But I like the spiritual and internal aspects of Martial training that I believe is left out in the MMA. It doesn't make you any less of a fighter but I don't train in the arts to simply fight...


----------



## Chitmunk (Oct 30, 2008)

couldn't agree more.  It is very true that through MMA training you can become an excellent fighter not to be taken lightly.  But I also don't train for competition (not any more at least) I train for skill, knowledge, and wisdom which is one place I am sorry to say that MMA falls short.  But then it is a sport designed around a set or rules for the sake of competition, not so much as the older styles focused on making your whole life that of a warrior so you needed to train the spiritual, and social side of the arts to really gain power in the lessons you learned.  Don't make the mistake in thinking that I do not appreciate the lessons learned in MMA, the skill you can learn there is formidable and there is wisdom to be learned in competition, I just feel the focuses are different.  And I will stand by my statement that anyone of anystyle could make a grand showing in MMA as long as they train diligently, have a strong understanding of the capabilities of their style, as well as at least a good basic knowledge in the abilities of the opponents they will face in the competitions they choose to partake in.


----------

