# How important is sparring in traditonal karate?



## BradderzH (Apr 25, 2017)

How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence? 

I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming. 

I have no interest in competition, but the fact that I have never even been in a real fight let alone a sparring session worries me. 

Should I be worried? Should I be sparring in order to become a better martial artist? Or am I just overthinking this? 

Thanks for reading. 

H


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## Buka (Apr 25, 2017)

You're going to get a lot of different opinions about this, so take them with a grain of salt.
What you might want to do is spend a year or so at a dojo that spars as part of their curriculum. A year is just a flicker of time, it's no big deal. Than you'll have first hand experience to answer your own question. And it more than likely will be a whole lot of fun.

I read all your posts, makes me wonder, you mentioned "when I spar _next_ time". I'm confused, what's up with that, bro?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2017)

Sparring is crucial. Everything changes when both people are moving and trying to attack while avoiding each other's attacks.

It's like learning to drive or fly in a simulator. It'll teach you but it won't be the same as apply.  Weather conditions in a simulator is not the same as driving in real rain.  Self-defense is like that.  The closer you can get to the real thing the better. Cardio endurance requirements will probably be you biggest surprise.


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2017)

What style of karate do you do? 'Karate' is a very general word often used for things that aren't actually karate as such. Instructors have different ideas on many things, some have no time for kata Bunkai, some teach wonderful pragmatic karate, some focus on sparring for competitions and/or kata for competitions. some concentrate on self defence techniques.
Most of us consider sparring and especially quite realistic hard contact sparring to be crucial ( and great fun I should add!) however others don't.
I think the question though you didn't mean it be is hugely vague and you won't get many answers that address your question directly because we can't. 'Traditional' is also something that is disputed, prhaps if you tell us what your style is, how the classes are conducted and how long you have been training we can give our opinions on your information.


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## CB Jones (Apr 25, 2017)

If your intent is self defense sparring will definitely help.

If you are interested in sparring just to try it out definitely find some where to try it...lot of fun.

If you just enjoy the training at your dojo and not really interested in sparring then don't worry about it.  Don't worry about others opinions of your skill as a MA are.


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## Danny T (Apr 25, 2017)

Please define what you mean by 'sparring'.
There are numerous aspects that people use as sparring.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?



"Traditional karate" is something that is going to have a lot of different meanings.

But if the traditions of your style dictate no sparring, then no sparring is "traditional".

For me that makes little sense, unless what you are doing is defined as a cultural tradition or a performance art.  If you are learning things designed to work against other people that are resisting... you need to train against other people that are resisting.  Seems like saying "My style of 'traditional' Basketball doesn't involve playing against another team, we just do drills."  Until you play against another team, you're not really playing the game.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 25, 2017)

Buka said:


> I read all your posts, makes me wonder, you mentioned "when I spar _next_ time". I'm confused, what's up with that, bro?



In his first post (from 3 years ago) he says:



BradderzH said:


> We have had a few sparring sessions, no 'wing chun vs karate' nonsense, just one of us throwing a few punches and the other using the respective techniques to dispose of the attacker



So it sounds like he wasn't really doing what we would call sparring at the point - just taking turns with his friend feeding attacks to be countered. Probably in the intervening years he's learned to use the terminology more accurately.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 25, 2017)

You'll get different viewpoints from different people. In my opinion sparring is extremely important and there is not substitute for it if you want to develop fighting ability. Mind you - there is a considerable variation in _how_ people approach sparring and I think that some versions are much more useful than others.


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 25, 2017)

If it is for self-defense, the application aspect of sparring is essential. If it is more sport oriented, then maybe not. 
I see sparring as a way to test how techniques and skills are applied to an actual person while allowing room for growth without being killed. It also helps train the mind to recognise, predict and react t moves. Without this, the self-defense aspect of the art is incomplete. 

This is, of course, just based mon my experiences.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2017)

I find sparring to be important.  You see it when some spar and their technique goes out the window.  Others spar and are all technique, but they don't adapt them to the necessities of sparring.  The give and take of sparring, whether light or reasonably hard, lets a karateka test technique, learn to adapt technique, and learn to flow from one technique into another without thinking, as the need arises.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Steve (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?
> 
> I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming.
> 
> ...


It sounds like you're interested in finding out how well YOU can apply the skills you've learned.  This is only natural and I believe it's very healthy.

You have many options.  If you're interested in how well you can apply skills with other karateka, find some like-minded peers and get together on the weekend for some friendly sparring.

If you're interested in self defense, I'd recommend opening that up to other styles and systems.   It doesn't have to be about ego or even about cross training.  It's about you practicing what you're learning with other like-minded martial artists.  It's not karate vs wrestling (or whatever).  It's about YOUR karate in a variety of contexts.


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## BradderzH (Apr 25, 2017)

Steve said:


> It sounds like you're interested in finding out how well YOU can apply the skills you've learned.  This is only natural and I believe it's very healthy.
> 
> You have many options.  If you're interested in how well you can apply skills with other karateka, find some like-minded peers and get together on the weekend for some friendly sparring.
> 
> If you're interested in self defense, I'd recommend opening that up to other styles and systems.   It doesn't have to be about ego or even about cross training.  It's about you practicing what you're learning with other like-minded martial artists.  It's not karate vs wrestling (or whatever).  It's about YOUR karate in a variety of contexts.



This is a good response that i will take on board.


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## BradderzH (Apr 25, 2017)

Allow me to clarify:

By 'Sparring' i meant blocking or defending an attack and then responding in a situation where the attack will be resisting, and where i will not know what is going to be coming in terms of a kick, punch, grab etc.

My style is Shito Ryu, but after getting my black belt I have started doing a bit of Shorin Ryu. 

My aims for training is mainly for self defence but after starting Karate I really grew to love it. It would just be good to try applications of kata in a more 'real' setting than controlled rolling bunkai. 

Hope this helps, let me know if i need to explain anything else. 

H


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> It would just be good to try applications of kata in a more 'real' setting than controlled rolling bunkai.



The chap you want for that is Iain Abernethy, absolutely brilliant with Bunkai. Try his seminars, you will come away having learnt a lot as well as enjoying the atmosphere he engenders. 



BradderzH said:


> By 'Sparring' i meant blocking or defending an attack and then responding in a situation where the attack will be resisting, and where i will not know what is going to be coming in terms of a kick, punch, grab etc.



Sparring to most of us means 'fighting' but with control and usually less than full contact. I think what you mean is more the one and three step sparring that TKD and TSD people do.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 25, 2017)

It is good that you know your art without any bad habits that sparring can create, but it might be time to play with it, a little.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 25, 2017)

Touch Of Death said:


> It is good that you know your art without any bad habits that sparring can create, but it might be time to play with it, a little.


Sparring means you work an idea against a resisting opponent.


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 25, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sparring to most of us means 'fighting' but with control and usually less than full contact. I think what you mean is more the one and three step sparring that TKD and TSD people do.



At My Tang Soo Do studio, we will have free sparring, 1-3 step, and then a combination of both. It is usually beneficial, and quite fun. Then you get someone who likes takedowns and it turns into a "who can throw who first" game. Still a lot of fun.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 25, 2017)

We refer to both ippon kumite (one step sparring or techniques) and jiyu kumite (free sparring).  We make time for both, each have their place.

When doing jiyu kumite, we make sure we communicate well with our partner.  We will speed up, slow down, hit harder, hit softer, etc, as we are able to give and receive.  The intent is never to injure our partner, nor to show them how good we are compared to them (or vice-versa).  Kumite is a teaching-learning environment.  If a senior student is paired with a junior student, the senior should focus on good clean technique in defense, but allow the junior partner to control the intensity and speed of the kumite, letting them work on their defense and attacks rather than attempting to overwhelm them or show off.  Kumite is not a contest in the dojo; we are partners training together and both aim at common goals.  To learn, to enjoy, and to go home relatively uninjured.


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## marques (Apr 25, 2017)

As far as I know, sparring has little importance in many traditional karate styles. Sparring is fun, if well managed*. I think you're missing the best bit.

*it is still training, so one should forget about 'winning' and focus in learning something specific each session. Start slow and light, without risk of (serious) injuries, without fear or any strong emotion. Enjoy.


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## BradderzH (Apr 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> At My Tang Soo Do studio, we will have free sparring, 1-3 step, and then a combination of both. It is usually beneficial, and quite fun. Then you get someone who likes takedowns and it turns into a "who can throw who first" game. Still a lot of fun.



What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check


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## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check



No it's not intensity, it's the amount of steps taken forward by the 'attacker' and backwards by the 'defender' before the attacking technique is performed hence one and three step sparring. This is the TKD version, we've done similar but where you can do whatever techniques you want.
Three Step Sparring


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> What do you mean by "stage 1-3"? At a guess it is a measure of intensity but i just wanted to check





Tez3 said:


> No it's not intensity, it's the amount of steps taken forward by the 'attacker' and backwards by the 'defender' before the attacking technique is performed hence one and three step sparring. This is the TKD version, we've done similar but where you can do whatever techniques you want.
> Three Step Sparring



@Tez3 Has it right. It is just the # of steps we can take before we switch attackers. Sometimes we will use weapons, but we haven't done that in a while.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> @Tez3 Has it right. It is just the # of steps we can take before we switch attackers. Sometimes we will use weapons, but we haven't done that in a while.



Or it could mean the number of different attacks/techniques the attacker uses before the defender delivers his/her "killing blow" ie attacker does jab, cross, roundhouse kick, defender avoids all three then counters, or the defender counters the first two then uses a big finish after the 3rd attack.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2017)

As has been said, sparring is a very vague term when truly analyzed.  I think it's safe to say the OP is referring to free sparring, where there's no predetermined attacks.

IMO in very rare instances can a teacher and student get away with no free-sparring.  The only way I can see an effective karateka without any free-sparring is what I saw in the video Tee: The Spirit of Okinawan Karate.  There was a teacher who had his students doing drills that were a punch was thrown and the defender had to receive correctly and counter.  If the student didn't receive correctly, he was getting punched in the face pretty hard.

Hard to put into words...






The part where the British guy wasn't receiving correctly and the teacher wasn't happy.

Edit: if you're a karate person, especially Okinawan karate, it's a must watch imo.


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## Paul_D (Apr 25, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?


You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence.  I think that is where your problem lies.  Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street).  Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.

The problems with "street fighting" | Iain Abernethy



BradderzH said:


> We know what is coming.


You do but the enemy (on the street) doesn't.

_“The techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or on a battlefield.  They were, however, most effective against someone who had no idea of the strategy being used to counter their aggressive behaviour.” *– *_*Choki Motobu
*


Touch Of Death said:


> Sparring means you work an idea against a resisting opponent.


Sparring means you have allowed the enemy the option of resisting.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Sparring means you have allowed the enemy the option of resisting.



There are no enemies in sparring.  Sparring is done with partners, not opponents nor enemies.  Fighting, self defense, competing, et al are done against enemies and/or opponents.


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## Paul_D (Apr 25, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> There are no enemies in sparring.  Sparring is done with partners, not opponents nor enemies.  Fighting, self defense, competing, et al are done against enemies and/or opponents.


If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.

 Better?


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## Headhunter (Apr 25, 2017)

Well personally I don't think it's necessary I competed in boxing, kickboxing, mma and point fighting over a 15 year period and during that time I sparred around 3 times and I won more fights than I lost so its not an absolute nesecisity


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence.  I think that is where your problem lies.  Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street).  Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.
> 
> The problems with "street fighting" | Iain Abernethy
> 
> ...


A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.

Someone _defending_ against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.

Yes, an ideal outcome might be for the target to perceive the threat before an actual attack is launched and initiate his/her own pre-emptive attack to overwhelm the enemy before he realizes the fight has started or that his target is ready to defend him/herself. Unfortunately we don't live in a world where everything goes ideally.

Perhaps the assailant is the one who succeeds in landing a surprise attack. In this case the defender (if not unconscious or bleeding out) is now hurt, disoriented, off-balance, with a compromised position and structure, while having to deal with continued incoming attacks. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender sees the threat coming in time to avoid being sucker punched, but fails to launch a pre-emptive attack until the assault is already under way and the attacker is not incompetent at fighting. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack - but the assailant is tough enough and skilled enough that he is not immediately finished off or intimidated into retreat. In this case, the defender better know how to fight*.

Perhaps the defender does see the threat coming and does launch a pre-emptive attack and does drop the attacker where he stands - but the attacker has a buddy who decides to continue the assault and now won't be taken by surprise. In this case the defender better know how to fight.*

*(Or run, but retreat isn't always possible for a number of reasons.)

I'm all in favor of training to be prepared to finish an encounter quickly with a pre-emptive attack. I'm not in favor of presuming that this tactic will always work and be all that you ever need.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.
> 
> Better?


Sparring on the street against an actual attacker would make as much sense as doing kata on the street  against an actual attacker or hitting a heavy bag on the street  against an actual attacker or doing push ups on the street  against an actual attacker. Those are all training exercises to develop certain skills and attributes. Training is what you do before the actual situation, not during.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> You seem to be confusing sparring and consensual figting with self defence. I think that is where your problem lies. Sparring is useful for consensual fighting (either legally in the ring, or illegally in the street). Katas are degined for self defence, to be used pre-emptviely to attack, so the enemy never gets a go, like he would when you agree to spar/fight.



I think you are confusing kata and fantasy with self defence.

It would be nice if he never gets a go. But you know what? Lets plan for the ide that he does.


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## JR 137 (Apr 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> If you sparred on the street it would mean you had afforded your enemy the luxury of resisting.
> 
> Better?



I honestly have no idea what you're saying nor getting at.  Sparring is training.  Training to fight, defend yourself (depending on the parameters), compete, etc.

I think there's some sarcasm in your post, being the SD vs fighting vs competing police, but I'm at a loss here.


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## Psilent Knight (Apr 25, 2017)

@BradderzH , another forum poster said to me recently that posts that are made on these forums are actually the opinions of the posters, so my advice is to take each individual feedback with a grain of salt. As for me; for various reasons I find myself more in agreement with @Paul_D 

My two cents for what it's worth.

Take Care and Good Luck On Your Martial Arts Journey,
OSU!


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## Paul_D (Apr 26, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I honestly have no idea what you're saying nor getting at.  Sparring is training.  Training to fight, defend yourself (depending on the parameters), compete, etc.
> 
> I think there's some sarcasm in your post, being the SD vs fighting vs competing police, but I'm at a loss here.


What I am saying is that sparring gives the opponent the opportunity to resist/fight back.  Self defence, when done properly, doesn't.  Once you have reached the point where a physical solution is the only remaining outcome, you should attack pre-emptively with a constant one way stream of violence until the threat is neutralised/you have created the opportunity to escape.

You said sparring was for testing your techniques against resistance.  I am saying that if done correctly, my self defence will not give you to opportunity to resist.  So sparring is a more a fighting skill than a self defence skill. 

Confusing fighting with self defence means people assume the skills/training needed to be successful at fighting (sparring being one of them) are the same skills/training methods needed to be successful at self defence.


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## Paul_D (Apr 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I think you are confusing kata and fantasy with self defence.
> 
> It would be nice if he never gets a go. But you know what? Lets plan for the ide that he does.


No one is saying things never go wrong, and he doesn't get a go. But as usual, you are being deliberately obtuse.


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## Paul_D (Apr 26, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.
> 
> Someone _defending_ against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.
> 
> ...


I am not saying that SD training is some magical power that will help you if you are attacked in code white (as you describe) . As Geoff Thompson says, if you are attacked in code white only thing that will save you is the ineptitude of your attacker.

So it doesn't mater what psychical skills you have, if you are switched off, and your attacker isn't inept, it's game over anyway, whether you train for fighting, SD or table tennis.  

Doesn't change the fact that if you want to get good at consensual fighting train for it, if you want to get good at SD train for it, but training for one in the hope that it will work for the other isn't the the best way to go about it.


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## drop bear (Apr 26, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No one is saying things never go wrong, and he doesn't get a go. But as usual, you are being deliberately obtuse.



You just don't train for them going wrong?


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## Psilent Knight (Apr 26, 2017)

There's a HUGE difference between a "match fighting" situation and self defense. I believe  Paul_D is saying that our training should be geared towards avoiding match fighting as best as possible if self defense/self protection is our goal. Street fights, sport competitions and any other type of symmetrical, two way, back-and-forth exchanges are match fights which is different from a preemptive, ASYMMETRICAL, one way barrage done in the name of self protection/self defense. IMO Sparring is useful for give and take, back and forth match fighting but detrimental for realistic self defense.

Take Care and Have A Great Day,

Osu!


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## Psilent Knight (Apr 26, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not saying that SD training is some magical power that will help you if you are attacked in code white (as you describe) . As Geoff Thompson says, if you are attacked in code white only thing that will save you is the ineptitude of your attacker.
> 
> So it doesn't mater what psychical skills you have, if you are switched off, and your attacker isn't inept, it's game over anyway, whether you train for fighting, SD or table tennis.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that if you want to get good at consensual fighting train for it, if you want to get good at SD train for it, but training for one in the hope that it will work for the other isn't the the best way to go about it.



A great post which I personally agree with wholeheartedly. And just to add to it I also believe that we should devote just as much time to learning how to stay "Coded Up/Switched On" as we do to physical self defense training.

Take Care Everyone and Have A Great Day,

Osu!


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> @BradderzH , another forum poster said to me recently that posts that are made on these forums are actually the opinions of the posters, so my advice is to take each individual feedback with a grain of salt. As for me; for various reasons I find myself more in agreement with @Paul_D
> 
> My two cents for what it's worth.
> 
> ...




Not so much. Some things are certainly opinions but if I'm telling you what techniques we train that's a fact and there's a lot of that here. If I say we do roundhouse kicks, front kicks and side kicks that's certainly not an opinion. If I say they are the best techniques in the world then that's an opinion. You can't take everything with a grain of salt, it's tantamount to calling people liars when they describe what they do, how they feel etc.


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## Psilent Knight (Apr 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not so much. Some things are certainly opinions but if I'm telling you what techniques we train that's a fact and there's a lot of that here. If I say we do roundhouse kicks, front kicks and side kicks that's certainly not an opinion. If I say they are the best techniques in the world then that's an opinion. You can't take everything with a grain of salt, it's tantamount to calling people liars when they describe what they do, how they feel etc.



This is a senseless and somewhat childish post  that would've been best left unsaid. Common sense lets us all know that I was not referring to what techniques are practiced in a combat system. Everyone in this thread is posting THEIR OPINIONS on consensual sparring being good or bad for self defense.

If my tone seems a little too forthright it is because I feel that you made that post just to have something (irrelevant) to say without contributing to the actual subject of the discussion.

Take Care.


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> This is a senseless and somewhat childish post  that would've been best left unsaid. Common sense lets us all know that I was not referring to what techniques are practiced in a combat system. Everyone in this thread is posting THEIR OPINIONS on consensual sparring being good or bad for self defense.
> 
> If my tone seems a little too forthright it is because I feel that you made that post just to have something (irrelevant) to say without contributing to the actual subject of the discussion.
> 
> ...



Oh what bollocks, if you don't like being disagreed with, ignore the post. You advised that all posts on here are opinions, patent nonsense. Everyone isn't posting their opinions on sparring, I put entirely factual posts and questions, you don't know my opinion on sparring. You are coming across like a short tempered school headmaster who's had sugar in his coffee, hasn't had a cigarette yet and is dealing with stroppy teenagers. Stop pontificating about opinions and patronising us because you think you better than we do about what is opinions and what is not. The Op can make their own mind up, they don't need you to tell them opinions are different. Don't like my posts? put me on ignore and save your blood pressure from rising any more.


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## Psilent Knight (Apr 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh what bollocks, if you don't like being disagreed with, ignore the post.



Another senseless and childish post. I see now that you're one those people that have some serious immaturity issues and it appears that some intellectual deficiencies accompany those issues. I NEVER said that I don't like people disagreeing with me or having a difference of opinion than I do. You can never point where I ever said that. If I had a problem with being disagreed with I wouldn't bother posting on a forum where *people are going to disagree with me*.



Tez3 said:


> You advised that all posts on here are opinions, patent nonsense.



And you're the only person who seem to not decipher that I was strictly referring to the posts made in this thread and the subject matter of this thread. NO ONE in this thread brought up the techniques that are practiced in a given combat system until YOU brought it up in your senseless childish post (which I want to reiterate did not contribute to the subject matter of the thread). COMMON SENSE (which seem to not be so common after all based on your last two posts here) should tell you that I was referring to the OPINIONS expressed in this thread; the OPINIONS of whether sparring is necessary/good or unnecessary/bad for self defense. I'm sure everyone else got that but you can only see the word _"opinions"_ in my post and have decided to misconstrue and misinterpret that word just so you can have something (senseless, childish and irrelevant) to say. What are you like 13 or something? How about you grow up?



Tez3 said:


> Everyone isn't posting their opinions on sparring, I put entirely factual posts and questions, you don't know my opinion on sparring.



First of all YOU'RE WRONG! EVERYONE in this thread who have a position on sparring being good or bad for self defense is posting his OPINION on the matter (including myself). Expressing one's position is no different from expressing a mindset or understanding or belief or OPINION. Same thing. Second of all, I don't need to know your opinion on sparring nor do I care about your opinion on sparring. I just know that any and every person who takes up one of the two positions on this subject has an opinion on the matter. Plain and Simple.



Tez3 said:


> You are coming across like a short tempered school headmaster who's had sugar in his coffee, hasn't had a cigarette yet and is dealing with stroppy teenagers.



I rarely drink coffee and when I do I always drink it black as I DO NOT use white sugar AT ALL in my diet (that crap is poison IN MY OPINION) and I don't smoke cigarettes and never have. Care to post anymore not so clever punch lines to continue demonstrating how childish, immature and unintellectual you are?



Tez3 said:


> Stop pontificating about opinions and patronising us because you think you better than we do about what is opinions and what is not. *The Op can make their own mind up, they don't need you to tell them opinions are different*.



Further proof of the childishness and immaturity. I already said this in the very post you decided to point out and start this silly argument of yours. Why start an argument with me only to repeat what I said to the OP in the first place? I guess this goes back to the intellectual deficiency I noticed about you.



Tez3 said:


> Don't like my posts? put me on ignore and save your blood pressure from rising any more.



BRAVO! This is the only sensible thing you said in your last two posts. You deserve one of those little star shaped gold stickers on your forehead for that one. And I will GLADLY heed your advice and simply ignore you and your posts from here on ( I always thought it best to just ignore idiots lest they drag me down to their level and beat me with experience). For the record my blood pressure is just fine, sorry to disappoint you. I can tell you are one of those miserable people who don't have a lot going on in life and do whatever you can tell to make others upset or miserable just like you. A lame attempt at control or power over others since you have no control or power in your own life otherwise.

Since I am now ignoring you I will not be reading let alone responding to anymore of your senseless childishness. You'll have to find yourself a different _sparring_ mate for that. Have fun acting childish and immature (and unintellectual).

I'm done with you for good now.


----------



## Steve (Apr 26, 2017)

in the words of the immortal Scotty (well, the new Scotty), "I like this ship!  It's exciting!"


----------



## Psilent Knight (Apr 26, 2017)

And if my last response seemed harsh or over the top it wouldn't bother me one bit if it's reported or results in me being banned from here. It's just an internet forum that has no bearing on any aspect of my life so trust me when I say I won't lose any sleep at all over it. 

Take Care Everyone and Enjoy Your Training and Discussions.

OSU!


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2017)

Well I hope PKnight feels better after getting that off his chest while breaking the rules about attacking posters, I have broad shoulders though.  some people need to vent the frustrations of their lives out on somebody, so better me than someone who might take it seriously. You never know what is going on in people's lives that makes them feel the way PKnight does, perhaps life is tough or sad and this is how he deals with it. If he didn't like my first post he could have ignored it but hey that's life, onwards and upwards. I'm sorry life is treating him in such a way he needs to rant at others, I hope things get better for him.

I bet he peeps though at what I say.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 26, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I am not saying that SD training is some magical power that will help you if you are attacked in code white (as you describe) . As Geoff Thompson says, if you are attacked in code white only thing that will save you is the ineptitude of your attacker.


I listed four scenarios and only one of them involves the defender being in code white when the assault begins. Any comments on the other three?

In that first scenario, you could argue that the defender only gets the opportunity to fight back if the attacker is inept. Perhaps so, but sometimes the attacker _is_ inept and fails to finish the defender off immediately. Alternately, sometimes the defender may start to come out of code white just in time to perceive the attack coming and partially cover up, avoiding the instant knock out. In either case, the defender is now likely to be hurt, disoriented, and have compromised structure. Knowing how to fight will greatly improve the defender's odds in this situation.

As a side note - one of the training groups I currently work with focuses heavily on the approach you advocate - "_attacking pre-emptively with a constant one way stream of violence until the threat is neutralized." _I've noticed that when we drill these sort of scenarios, I'm significantly better at performing them than most of the other students, including those who are much more experienced than I am at the art we are practicing. This may be because I'm a more experienced martial artist overall, but I personally think it has a lot to do with my sparring experience. Thanks to my sparring experience, I understand distance, I understand timing, I understand how to keep my balance and structure while moving, I understand how to instinctively adjust my angle relative to my opponent, I understand how to control my opponent's balance, I understand how to pre-emptively shut down my opponent's counters before he can begin them. I'm not saying those attributes can't be developed in other ways than sparring, but for me it has made a huge difference.

(BTW - by sparring I don't mean playing bouncy-bounce tippy-tappy from long range. I agree that particular sort of sparring doesn't help much with developing the ability to pre-emptively launch a barrage of overwhelming violence at close range.)


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well personally I don't think it's necessary I competed in boxing, kickboxing, mma and point fighting over a 15 year period and during that time I sparred around 3 times and I won more fights than I lost so its not an absolute nesecisity


  There would be no way this would be true for Jow Ga Kung Fu. It takes more than 3 sparring matches just for students to get comfortable with the idea that they are going to get hit.


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## Buka (Apr 26, 2017)

This thread is just nuts.


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## CB Jones (Apr 26, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> EVERYONE in this thread who have a position on sparring being good or bad for self defense is posting his OPINION on the matter



Pretty sure it is accepted worldwide that my opinion is fact......just saying.


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## Buka (Apr 26, 2017)

I don't play chess. So let me tell you all about it.
I am Gumby, damn it, I am supreme!

I think everyone should take a breath. Please?


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Pretty sure it is accepted worldwide that my opinion is fact......just saying.


its a fact that you have an opinion.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> its a fact that you have an opinion.


Yeah, well. like, that's just your _opinion_, man.


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## CB Jones (Apr 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> its a fact that you have an opinion.



I am an authority on all things and.......


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## drop bear (Apr 26, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Well I hope PKnight feels better after getting that off his chest while breaking the rules about attacking posters, I have broad shoulders though.  some people need to vent the frustrations of their lives out on somebody, so better me than someone who might take it seriously. You never know what is going on in people's lives that makes them feel the way PKnight does, perhaps life is tough or sad and this is how he deals with it. If he didn't like my first post he could have ignored it but hey that's life, onwards and upwards. I'm sorry life is treating him in such a way he needs to rant at others, I hope things get better for him.
> 
> I bet he peeps though at what I say.



Conversion is sparring.


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## drop bear (Apr 26, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> There would be no way this would be true for Jow Ga Kung Fu. It takes more than 3 sparring matches just for students to get comfortable with the idea that they are going to get hit.



I wouldnt throw a person I liked into a competition without some sparring before hand.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I wouldnt throw a person I liked into a competition without some sparring before hand.


Same here.


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> This thread is just nuts.



Just nuts or the mutt's nuts?


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## BuckerooBonzai (Apr 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, well. like, that's just your _opinion_, man.


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## Paul_D (Apr 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> (BTW - by sparring I don't mean playing bouncy-bounce tippy-tappy from long range. I agree that particular sort of sparring doesn't help much with developing the ability to pre-emptively launch a barrage of overwhelming violence at close range.)


But I am guessing that's what the OP was referring to, so that was the context that I was working on.

Obviously if what others are doing is different to that, but they still chose to call it sparring, then I'm sure it's more fit for purpose.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 27, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> But I am guessing that's what the OP was referring to, so that was the context that I was working on.


Maybe, but since the OP hasn't done any real sparring of any sort I wouldn't assume that there's a particular format of sparring he was asking about.



Paul_D said:


> Obviously if what others are doing is different to that, but they still chose to call it sparring, then I'm sure it's more fit for purpose.



I call it sparring because it is sparring. Bouncy-bouncy tippy-tappy tag with most targets and most techniques forbidden may (unfortunately) be a common form of sparring. that doesn't mean it's the only form of sparring any more than XMA  forms are the only kind of kata.

I'll quote myself from an earlier thread:

Types of sparring I do/have done ...

light, medium, hard contact
no protective gear, MMA gloves, Boxing gloves, shin pads, full armor, whatever seems appropriate for the level of contact and the techniques being used
punching only
punching and kicking only
clinching & knees only
punching, kicking, clinching and knees only
all strikes
grappling, takedowns only
grappling, just looking to enter to a control position for a takedown
ground grappling only, looking for submissions
grappling with takedowns and groundwork
positional ground grappling (ex - starting in mount, bottom person trying to escape, top person trying to submit)
ground grappling - pass or sweep
ground grappling - pass, sweep, or submit
ground grappling - pass, sweep, submit, or stand up
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns
ground grappling with strikes
stand up sparring with strikes and takedowns, continuing on the ground
stand up and ground sparring with various "dirty tactics" allowed, such as hair pulling, groin attacks, (simulated) eye gouges, etc
situational/environmental setups - fighting in a car, on a couch, etc - grappling only and grappling with strikes
sparring where I try to limit myself to fighting within a given style or structure (i.e. use only Wing Chun, use only the Philly shell, etc)
stick sparring with padded sticks
stick sparring with real sticks and protective gear
knife sparring with training knives
unarmed against knife (standing and on the ground)
one against multiples grappling only
one against multiples strikes included
one against multiple weapons included
multiple against multiples
asymmetric rules (ex - one person can only strike, the other can only grapple; one person is trying to restrain the other who is trying to get away, etc)
various scenario drills aimed at specific situations, for example: to simulate having to recover from a sucker punch, one person stands in the middle of a "crowd" (the rest of the class gathered close), bends over to look at their toes, and spins around 30 times really fast*. During this time, another person is designated at the sucker puncher, puts on boxing gloves, and comes in aggressively shoving and punching once the punchee stops spinning. The defender must either clinch long enough to clear their head (if they can stand) or defend themselves from the ground using open guard long enough to clear their head (if they fall down).

*(If you've never been TKO'd, this gives a passable simulation of what it feels like. It doesn't really hurt that much, but your balance is shot.)

All sparring should be treated as a learning experience, not a proving ground for who's the biggest badass. Have a plan going in for what you want to learn. Afterwards, try to analyze what sort of problems, lessons, or discoveries you encountered. When I'm teaching class I like to do a Q&A so we can troubleshoot specific problems students may have run into while sparring.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 29, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?



In my experience, it is not necessary if we are discussing the typical type of sparring practice.  I don't spar.  I have successfully used the martial arts in excess of a thousand times on/off duty (I stopped counting years ago).  I train/teach kata and bunkai.  To me, bunkai goes well beyond typical sparring.


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## Buka (Apr 30, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe, but since the OP hasn't done any real sparring of any sort I wouldn't assume that there's a particular format of sparring he was asking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In my opinion, this is wonderful. Such well rounded practical experience.


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## drop bear (Apr 30, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> In my experience, it is not necessary if we are discussing the typical type of sparring practice.  I don't spar.  I have successfully used the martial arts in excess of a thousand times on/off duty (I stopped counting years ago).  I train/teach kata and bunkai.  To me, bunkai goes well beyond typical sparring.



Yeah.  But you are counting on having a gun,knife and bat. 

Karate doesn't really rely on those. 

(Those deadly killer statements sound tough at the time.  But it comes back to bite you


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## Kong Soo Do (May 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah.  But you are counting on having a gun,knife and bat.
> 
> Karate doesn't really rely on those.
> 
> (Those deadly killer statements sound tough at the time.  But it comes back to bite you



Most of your posts are incoherent babbling, but this one is even above your normal gibberish.  Where, in my statement that you quoted, did I state anything about a gun, knife or bat?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?



Depends on your goals.  I suspect 100 years ago people disagreed on what was important and why too.  If you want to be able to fight, you need to spar.  If you have different goals, maybe not.



> I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming.



Sparring has been done and not done in schools for a very, very long time.  I imagine a lot of the "old" masters would have told you sparring is not only important, but necessary.  And probably a few that would say it isn't.




> Should I be worried? Should I be sparring in order to become a better martial artist? Or am I just overthinking this?



Worried?  Is your lifestyle one that will likely have you in fights from time to time?  Most of us will never be in a fight, so being "worried" isn't really called for.  But without sparring it's all just theory without application.  

Now that said depending on your goals you need to watch how you spar.  Some forms of sparring aren't all that useful and might even create more bad habits then they fix.  

But in the end as long as you are having fun and being honest with yourself about what you are doing and the limitations of it you're fine.    Sparring will develop a whole new set of skills that, depending on your goals might be very important, or completely irrelevant.  Me personally, sparring is the centre of everything, without it it's all just empty theory.  But more importantly, not as fun


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time. At the end of the day, you can either use what you have been taught against someone who is not being cooperative, or you cannot.  There is no gray area there.  How are you ever going to know that unless you occasionally put that to the test, albeit in a controlled environment?  I'm not suggesting that people in the same training group need to beat the snot out of each other, far from it.  Sparring can be done in a safe manner and in a way where you are trying to make each other better.  However, the idea that someone could get a Black Belt in Karate and not spar makes little sense to me.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time.



Iaido
Kyodo
Generally Kobudo 
Tai chi
Aikido
wushu
many forms of Japanese JJ
Same for Chin Na
Capoeira... I suppose you could sort of call is sparring?

Plenty of martial arts don't use free sparring.


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Iaido
> Kyodo
> Generally Kobudo
> Tai chi
> ...



Fair, to a point. I would suggest that several things which are called martial arts, aren't, but that is just me.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Fair, to a point. I would suggest that several things which are called martial arts, aren't, but that is just me.



And Bowling isn't a real sport!

Neither is Curling!

Wait... I'm Canadian... Curling is so a sport!


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## Charlemagne (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> And Bowling isn't a real sport!
> 
> Neither is Curling!
> 
> Wait... I'm Canadian... Curling is so a sport!



It's got a target, it's a sport.  Now gymnastics or figure skating on the other hand...   LOL


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## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Most of your posts are incoherent babbling, but this one is even above your normal gibberish.  Where, in my statement that you quoted, did I state anything about a gun, knife or bat?



That is because I am playing chess while you are playing checkers.

Remember the conversation with Hanzou.  Where you would spar but you need a bat a gun and a knife?



Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sorry you're not 100%.
> 
> Just to make sure the premise is understood, hypothetically, you can rely on your training and I can rely on mine.  Mine incorporates firearms, kubaton (and other types of batons) and edged weapons.  In the ring I would have my HK P30SK, serrated Hawkbill and kubaton which is my normal EDC.  Is this acceptable?



See you couldn't step in to a ring unless armed to the teeth.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Iaido
> Kyodo
> Generally Kobudo
> Tai chi
> ...



Roda is sparring.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Roda is sparring.



In a very, very, very stylized way that stretches the line between dance and sparring about as far as you can...


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## drop bear (May 8, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> In a very, very, very stylized way that stretches the line between dance and sparring about as far as you can...


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## TSDTexan (May 9, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> How important is sparring in terms of traditional karate and self defence?
> 
> I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred. Our organisation prides itself on being a traditional club, and whenever I mention sparring i am told we do it in the form of bunkai (application of kata or forms). I understand this is learning about how to apply the kata in a self defence situation but to me it feels very controlled. We know what is coming.
> 
> ...



You are over thinking it.

Just do your kata and learn the bunkai.

Do your kata correctly daily, 10 time this week, 20 times per day in three months. In 8 months do your kata 30 times per day.

One year from now, do your kata 50 times per day for 6 months straight.

Then get training on how to strike the Makiwara.

The goal here is Progressive resistance/power.... slowly dialing it up.

Eventually, you will spend 1 hour per day on the Makiwara, and ten minutes on just one form.

The Makiwara will give you feedback on your structure, posture, and balance and at the same time it will subconsciously teach you range for your strikes.

After a year of daily Makiwara training then move to step three.

Iron palm, iron fist and iron foot training. You will need to find a competent instructor if you can. If you can't, find the book by Dale Dugas called "Fundamental Iron Skills".

The goal of this training is to condition your striking body parts for actual use without injury.

Your skin will be toughened and callused, your bones will radically increase in density and become impact resilient, and your tendons and ligaments will become stronger, and more supple.

You will be able to Crack and break coconuts with your knife hand strike etc. Without injury.

Then you can proceed to other aspects of hojo undo to help improve power, and speed.

But always strike your Makiwara daily, because your body will undergo changes, and this tool gives you feedback to keep it calibrated.

And always do your kata daily, even if its just once.

Ten years from now, be kind to others.
Share what you have learned, on the way.

This I tell you... so you will realize that if you are not "sparing", Karate has methods to teach your body how to defend itself.


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## morlock (May 9, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> A criminal assailant (mugger, rapist, whatever) has the luxury of only choosing to attack when he perceives the defender is unaware and unprepared and thus overpowering the victim without resistance. In fact, this is a primary tactic for predators.
> 
> Someone _defending_ against said criminal attacker will very likely not have this luxury.
> 
> ...


I think this is a good philosophy to have regarding aggressions.

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That is because I am playing chess while you are playing checkers.



No, you're involving yourself in conversations across the board in which you have no knowledge.  I suspect to up your post count which is why you have nearly 11K posts in just over three years on the board.  



drop bear said:


> Remember the conversation with Hanzou. Where you would spar but you need a bat a gun and a knife?



I do remember the conversation with Hanzou, because I was involved in the conversation.  That's why I know it has nothing to do with this thread.  And the post was made to emphasis a specific point in the other thread.  A point that was understood by Hanzou, and others...but apparently went right over your head.  

You should make reading comprehension a priority in you life.  I would save you a lot of grief.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I really don't see how one cannot spar, at least once and a while, and claim to be teaching a martial art at the same time.



Because you are familiar only with a specific model of training.  That model of training, while effective for one type of martial art, isn't necessarily effective for other types of martial arts.  It all boils down to the focus, goal and teaching methodology.


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## Charlemagne (May 9, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Because you are familiar only with a specific model of training.  That model of training, while effective for one type of martial art, isn't necessarily effective for other types of martial arts.  It all boils down to the focus, goal and teaching methodology.



No, that isn't it.  I've trained other supposed martial arts that never sparred, to include some of the ones mentioned above.  And yes, sparring is effective for any kind of martial art.  Pretending that sparring is not necessary in order to be able to pull off your techniques against someone who is trying to resist that is delusional.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

And yet I've been doing it successfully for over 40 years.  And against violent felons, both armed and unarmed for nearly 30 years.  I don't spar, nor do I teach sparring.  And my students, both high liability professionals and private citizens alike have successfully defended themselves against violent felons.  Your assumption is not correct.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

@Charlemagne 

What exactly are you disagreeing with?


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, you're involving yourself in conversations across the board in which you have no knowledge.  I suspect to up your post count which is why you have nearly 11K posts in just over three years on the board.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Um...You have suggested my posts are incoherent. But then come to the conclusion that I am the one who needs to make reading comprehension a priority.

You are not exactly Sherlock Holmes are you?

The conversations across the board are not private. Were never secret. and I was reading them when you were. I have exactly the same knowledge of these conversations that you do. 

The point you were specifically making was to be cool. Saying that you have a gun,knife,bat so therefore your system is cooler than an unarmed system is a pretty tired old trick to be honest. And it bites you back because the obvious answer is if you need a gun,knife bat in an unarmed confrontation. (especially sparring) Your confidence in your unarmed really isnt very high.

Too deadly to spar but "Trust me I fought a dragon."is not generally considered a bonus in a martial art.

Please let me know if you are coping with understanding my posts. If not I will try to make them simpler and more straight forward.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Um...You have suggested my posts are incoherent. But then come to the conclusion that I am the one who needs to make reading comprehension a priority.



Reread the statement in the quote above.  Yes, your posts are often incoherent gibberish.  The above quote confirms it.  Thank you.



drop bear said:


> The conversations across the board are not private. Were never secret.



I never stated they were.  



drop bear said:


> I have exactly the same knowledge of these conversations that you do.



Apparently you don't.  Everyone else knew precisely the point I was making.  You obviously didn't.  I mean...you REALLY don't have a clue.  There is an old saying that one should be considered foolish and remain silent lest they open their mouth and confirm it.  At any rate, had nothing to do with being cool or comparing systems or any other such nonsense. It was about differences in teaching methodologies.  I've patiently tried to explain this to you multiple times, in multiple threads.  

If you still don't understand, well it's probably because I'm using capital letters and punctuation in my sentence structure.  Something that seems to cause you no end of trouble. Here's and example:



drop bear said:


> Were never secret. and I was reading them when you were.



Bye


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## drop bear (May 9, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Reread the statement in the quote above.  Yes, your posts are often incoherent gibberish.  The above quote confirms it.  Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you associate with people who get punched in the head for a hobby. You are probably never going to get Shakespeare. I would be less hung up on punctuation and more concerned about practical training.

Everyone else did know what point you were making. And it was not the one you thought you were making.
(Damn that sentance has some nuance. You won't get that at all. And then blame me.)

Ok. Sparring is probably more important if you can't just shoot people. Because there are a lot of details in fighting that are not exposed from static drills.

This is drilled to us in class constantly. Our techniques dont just work. Its a fight. You have to apply fighting to fighting.

Sparring is a lot easier to see the issues and work them out and refine your system before you have to rely on them. The idea that anyone should just take an instructors word that the technique works without testing it for themselves is really inadvisable.

What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count. That is not a teaching methodology that is a war story.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you associate with people who get punched in the head for a hobby.



That isn't a complete sentence.  This is what I'm talking about with how you post.  I read some of your posts and shake my head.  It's just hard to take you seriously.



drop bear said:


> I would be less hung up on punctuation and more concerned about practical training.



I can do both.  I've been training and teaching longer than you've been alive I'd wager.



drop bear said:


> Everyone else did know what point you were making.



And you still don't.  You're proving my point for me...thanks.



drop bear said:


> Because there are a lot of details in fighting that are not exposed from static drills.



Never mentioned static drills.  We've been talking about bunkai.  Apparently you're unfamiliar with that as well?



drop bear said:


> The idea that anyone should just take an instructors word that the technique works without testing it for themselves is really inadvisable.



Okay...so?  Anyone mention in this thread that students should just take the word of their instructor without testing their skill set?  More rambling on your part?  



drop bear said:


> What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count.



Ah, so documented real world experience against violent resisting felons doesn't count?  Got it.  Keeping a data base of students taught, both high liability professionals as well as private citizens that have successfully used the training doesn't count?  Got it.

Posting YT videos by the truck load in threads you have no personal knowledge in does count in your world?  Got it.


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## drop bear (May 10, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ah, so documented real world experience against violent resisting felons doesn't count? Got it. Keeping a data base of students taught, both high liability professionals as well as private citizens that have successfully used the training doesn't count? Got it.
> 
> Posting YT videos by the truck load in threads you have no personal knowledge in does count in your world? Got it.



The documents nobody have ever seen. For the fighting success nobody has ever verified. That are unable to be repeated in sparring. That are unable to be shown in any format youtube or otherwise.

Hm................


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## Kong Soo Do (May 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The documents nobody have ever seen.



Actually this is incorrect.  There are folks here that know me personally that have either witnessed me in a use-of-force and/or seen the documentation.  More folks on my own martial arts board and emergency preparedness board know me personally and a few either work with me right now or have worked with me in the past.  This includes my instructor and several of my previous partners that I owned a school with.  You want to talk with them, join the MA board and talk with them all you like.  Additionally, I'll extend the same invitation to you as I did with Hanzou, come to town and I'll personally drive you downtown to review my personnel file.  Like I told him, pack a lunch because it's thick. Additionally, I'll show you the database we keep on students that have used our training in real world situations on everything from date rape to taking down inmates to making arrests to stopping muggings.  



drop bear said:


> That are unable to be repeated in sparring.



More interested in repeating them in real life, against real violent felons than in an artificial environment.



drop bear said:


> That are unable to be shown in any format youtube or otherwise.



Never been on 'Cops' and really have no need to demonstrate my skill set for the viewing audience.  My goal is to go home safe and teach others to do the same.  If you'd like to believe I don't have that kind of experience then assume I'm just an awkward teenager with too much internet time on my hands that makes stuff up as I go.  After all, I kinda have that impression of you sometimes.


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## Paul_D (May 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> What this amounts to is you just saying. "My method works because I fought a thousand guys." Just doesn't count.


It doesn't count that someone knows it works because they've used it for real?


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## drop bear (May 10, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It doesn't count that someone knows it works because they've used it for real?



Did i mention I fought a dragon once?


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## Buka (May 10, 2017)

I don't train Traditional Karate, so I probably shouldn't even comment. But I do train Karate, so what the hell.

Some years ago, maybe three or four, I was discussing this very issue here on our forum with Chris Parker. He presented some points I had to take a long look at. Been thinking about them ever since.

I realized a few things.
I've trained a lot of people in a variety of things. Taught a lot of DT in law enforcement. The majority of the officers I taught, never sparred to my knowledge. Some did, but most didn't. But many of them had ample opportunities to apply certain things they learned in dangerous circumstances on the street, with resisting, dangerous and violent people. (Successfully.)  As the years go by you discuss some of these incidents with lots of these guys and gals. So far so good. But, again, these folks, most of them, never sparred.

I've also trained a couple handfuls of people over the years who put in a lot of hours on the dojo floor, but who weren't into "the sparring thing"(as one of them put it) some of them already knew how to fight, had been doing so since they were young, due to where and how they grew up. And I knew this to be accurate. They were training for the fun of it, or to get into shape, or just because. They didn't care squat about belts, or about sparring.

I've also trained a some folks who did a good deal of sparring, and did okay at it. Stayed a few years to intermediate belt level and trained really hard. But I don't know if they'd actually be able to apply the skills they learned in real world danger situation.

So.....now, some years later....I dunno'. Still thinking about it.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 11, 2017)

Buka said:


> I realized a few things.
> I've trained a lot of people in a variety of things. Taught a lot of DT in law enforcement. The majority of the officers I taught, never sparred to my knowledge. Some did, but most didn't. But many of them had ample opportunities to apply certain things they learned in dangerous circumstances on the street, with resisting, dangerous and violent people. (Successfully.)



This is a good example.  Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done.  No, they aren't Bruce Lee.  But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.  

WWII combatives is another example.  No sparring.  Stupid simple.  Very little training initially.  Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.  

So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.


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## Buka (May 11, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a good example.  Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done.  No, they aren't Bruce Lee.  But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.
> 
> WWII combatives is another example.  No sparring.  Stupid simple.  Very little training initially.  Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.
> 
> So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.



Sparring was a big part of what we did, certainly not the only part, but definitely the most enjoyable. Sparring sessions were always the most crowded of nights/days, there was an electric atmosphere every time, people rooting for others, fist pumping and cheers when someone landed a beautiful kick, combo, sweep of what-have-you. It was jut flat out crazy fun. But I ponder if it was necessary for the development of our students. I like to _think_ it, was, but that's more than likely a selfish way of how I look at it.

In police work, beside the times when we happen upon a crime or an incident, for the most part we are called and sent. We don't really have the option of _not dealing_ with problems, avoiding them and going about our day. Constant repetition of these cases builds our skills in the various ways we have of dealing with them. Now, a private citizen, often times has the option of avoidance. He can get outta' Dodge, or avoid it all together if he's lucky - and that's a beautiful thing. Most times he'll never be forced into testing certain skills he might have that deal with conflict. Also, in our case, we have right on our side, we have the law on our side. (let's hope so, anyway) I believe that gives us a mental edge in all conflict. An edge the regular guy doesn't have.

So......I still wonder if all the sparring we did, constantly, the sparring I taught......I wonder how necessary it really was. I think it was more important for some students than others.  Maybe for the more introverted ones, maybe the less athletic ones, maybe for the ones that never had physical altercations, maybe for the ones who were bullied more than the rest of us. Maybe it gave them the opportunity to experience a mild form of violence, and how to deal with it, in a safe and supported way. Maybe it taught them that they can survive taking a couple of good shots, maybe it taught them how to get jammed, or knocked of base, and how to reset, regroup, re-whatever, in a fast paced pressure environment. And maybe not.

Hell, I don't know. I think I'm driving myself crazy with this.


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## drop bear (May 11, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a good example.  Most in LEO, Corrections, Executive Protection and other such professions don't take training beyond the academy and in-service yet they still, by-and-large get the job done.  No, they aren't Bruce Lee.  But they normally get the job done with the little they know, without sparring and normally just practicing repetition by rote.
> 
> WWII combatives is another example.  No sparring.  Stupid simple.  Very little training initially.  Yet it was gross motor skills that were retained in long term memory and flat out brutal and effective.
> 
> So it goes back to the OP, sparring is not important (or necessary) in a traditional Karate system if the focus is SD related.



If you have a gun, bat and knife. If you have numbers support and the authority of the law.  Then you may not need to spend all that much time learning to fight. Or need a system that works very well. 

We have a saying in the professional violence world.

"Give me 4 committed gumbies and we will stop a trained guy"


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## drop bear (May 11, 2017)

Buka said:


> I don't train Traditional Karate, so I probably shouldn't even comment. But I do train Karate, so what the hell.
> 
> Some years ago, maybe three or four, I was discussing this very issue here on our forum with Chris Parker. He presented some points I had to take a long look at. Been thinking about them ever since.
> 
> ...



I trained guys to fight successfully real world by saying "Grab his bloody arm don't let go"

If they could do that then we could generally win fights. Because it is really hard to fight a guy with another guy hanging off them.

But that was the result of poor industry training that required me to make massive short cuts.

I spent the time and effort learning to handle people because I needed that edge.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

BradderzH said:


> I am a recent black belt in Karate (I only got it a year ago) and I have never sparred.



I am shocked. Sparring is a very crucial part of learning any combative martial art. How can you be sure you are capable of doing anything if it is never put to the test?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am shocked. Sparring is a very crucial part of learning any combative martial art. How can you be sure you are capable of doing anything if it is never put to the test?



But it really isn't a crucial part.  It is one method used primarily within the scope of one teaching methodology.  But as I've stated, it isn't the most effective nor is it a necessity.  One can test their skill set using bunkai without sparring and have very effective results.  Been doing it for decades, as stated previously.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> But it really isn't a crucial part.  It is one method used primarily within the scope of one teaching methodology.  But as I've stated, it isn't the most effective nor is it a necessity.  One can test their skill set using bunkai without sparring and have very effective results.  Been doing it for decades, as stated previously.



But bunkai is scripted.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> But bunkai is scripted.


And yet...it works...


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And yet...it works...



But does it work as well as sparring does? I mean not knowing what is coming is important right?


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> But does it work as well as sparring does? I mean not knowing what is coming is important right?


Well, a fellow like Kong Soo Do, working for several decades in law enforcement, has found it to work quite well for him.  And he knows others for whom it works well also.  Do you think he is lying about that?

What people need to understand, and to be open to, is that there are more than one way to develop good skills.  Some ways work better for certain kinds of needs, others work better for other kinds of needs, and some ways work better for some people.  Thats it.  Nothing mystical or magical about it.

But people get hung up on thinking that their way is the only way that works.  It isn't.  Don't be that fool.


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## donald1 (May 12, 2017)

What kind of traditional karate dosnt do sparring???  Theres something wrong with your club. I havent ever seen a traditional school that dosnt spar


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, a fellow like Kong Soo Do, working for several decades in law enforcement, has found it to work quite well for him.  And he knows others for whom it works well also.  Do you think he is lying about that?
> 
> What people need to understand, and to be open to, is that there are more than one way to develop good skills.  Some ways work better for certain kinds of needs, others work better for other kinds of needs, and some ways work better for some people.  Thats it.  Nothing mystical or magical about it.
> 
> But people get hung up on thinking that their way is the only way that works.  It isn't.  Don't be that fool.



I am not accusing him of lying, I just don't understand. I am just asking to better understand.

What is it about bunkai that makes it on par with free sparring? I just want to know because some day I want to teach others. 

If bunkai is truly so effective I want to know how and why. It could be a good alternative to teach people who are afraid or simply not comfortable with sparring.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

donald1 said:


> What kind of traditional karate dosnt do sparring???  Theres something wrong with your club. I havent ever seen a traditional school that dosnt spar



Yeah I never seen one, the least I have seen is controlled sparring with light contact.


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## Paul_D (May 12, 2017)

donald1 said:


> What kind of traditional karate dosnt do sparring???  Theres something wrong with your club. I havent ever seen a traditional school that dosnt spar


There is nothing wrong with his club.  How are you defining sparring?  Are you talkng about sport/competion sparring?

Traditional to me means before Karate became a sport, so I would not expect to see any sport/competion sparring.  Most modern clubs call themselves traditional, but are in fact nothing of the sort.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am not accusing him of lying, I just don't understand. I am just asking to better understand.
> 
> What is it about bunkai that makes it on par with free sparring? I just want to know because some day I want to teach others.
> 
> If bunkai is truly so effective I want to know how and why. It could be a good alternative to teach people who are afraid or simply not comfortable with sparring.


Well, I don't think there is any difinitive way to say that one is better or worse than the other, in an absolute way.  Context matters, like I mentioned earlier.  What are the needs, and how does the individual person relate to and connect with the methodology?

I will say that if your desire is to get into a ring and fight competitively, then some form of sparring will probably serve you well.  But I am utterly unconvinced that it is necessary for someone who wil not fight in competition.  That doesn't mean that it cannot still be worth while.  But again, contex matters.

And I will also say, as I have said many times, that it is ok to recognize that you don't have the experience to properly understand some XYZ aspect of the martial arts.  No problem with that. But it becomes a problem if you decide that it's worthless, in spite of your lack of understanding.  That is a decision based on ignorance, I encourage you to not be that guy.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I don't think there is any difinitive way to say that one is better or worse than the other, in an absolute way.  Context matters, like I mentioned earlier.  What are the needs, and how does the individual person relate to and connect with the methodology?
> 
> I will say that if your desire is to get into a ring and fight competitively, then some form of sparring will probably serve you well.  But I am utterly unconvinced that it is necessary for someone who wil not fight in competition.  That doesn't mean that it cannot still be worth while.  But again, contex matters.



Well if it helping a law enforcement officer then that must mean something.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> There is nothing wrong with his club.  How are you defining sparring?  Are you talkng about sport/competion sparring?
> 
> Traditional to me means before Karate became a sport, so I would not expect to see any sport/competion sparring.  Most modern clubs call themselves traditional, but are in fact nothing of the sort.



I don't think I have ever done traditional anything then. It's always been "updated" or "modernized" in some way.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well if it helping a law enforcement officer then that must mean something.


Definitely.  Their needs are different from a top level competition athlete, and different from military personnel, and different from a civilian who may need to defend himself.  Again, context.  Identify what the needs are, identify a methodology that makes sense to you, that you can relate to, and do that.  But that isn't the only way, and a lot of people may overlap the kind of training you do, but for different reasons.

There are many ways, some different, some similar, some overlap.  There is no RIGHT way, to which all others are simply wrong.


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## Paul_D (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I don't think there is any difinitive way to say that one is better or worse than the other, in an absolute way.  Context matters, like I mentioned earlier.


Context, exactly.   One isn't "better" then the other, they are just different tools for different jobs.  Sparring is for fighting,  kata is for self defence.


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## Paul_D (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I don't think I have ever done traditional anything then. It's always been "updated" or "modernized" in some way.


Of course, but clubs that include sport karate refer to themselves as traditional, when they are (relatively) modern in the grand scheme of things.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Context, exactly.   One isn't "better" then the other, they are just different tools for different jobs.  Sparring is for fighting,  kata is for self defence.


And I would say that they each could support the other, I don't like to draw hard lines of division.  But again, context, which includes purpose and needs, as well as how the person relates to and connects with the methodology.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> But bunkai is scripted.



Only if you allow for only a shallow interpretation.  As an example, the opening movements of Pinan Shodan demonstrate a shoulder lock as just one possible bunkai.  Now, that shoulder lock could be used from standing, such as from a grapple or on the ground.  It demonstrates the principle of the lock with the actual application varying to the situation. This means that during training the instructor avoids the 'grab my wrist here' method of teaching.  Rather, after demonstrating a typical application as demonstrated in a portion of kata the in-depth exploration begins.  So that movement shows a shoulder lock.  Okay, how can be best employ that technique?  What are some ways that aren't 'typical'?  What are the follow up moves that are possible?  

This is where the rubber meets the road.  Kata is often thought of as a class-filler that is used to get to the next belt level.  Just a collection of pre-arranged movements.  When thought of in that way...boring!  Useless!  Waste of time!

However, there is another way to view kata.  As techniques, principles and strategies in physical movement.  So, using the shoulder lock bunkai from Pinan Shodan to continue my example, we can begin using it by rote as a beginner's teaching tool.  From there we can progress to alternate ways to use that shoulder lock (such as on the ground).  From there we can move to making it part of a fluid response to an attack.  The mistake is assuming that the movements have to be just as exact in real life as they are during an attack.  Early masters weren't idiots.  They knew fights are chaotic, dynamic, hot messes that only look cool when both sides are choreographed.  Thus the bunkai simply shows a template by which the kata designer wished to impart a particular technique and/or concept.  Often in a particular order they wished it to be taught in.  

This is why many karate masters felt that *all* of karate could be learned with just one, or just a few kata.  Uechei Sensei was one of those IIRC.  Viewing kata as just a collection of pre-fab movements one would be hard pressed to think they could learn all of karate.  Viewing it as a catalog that can then be delved into deeply it is easy to see how a single kata, and surely just a few would last you a lifetime of training because within one kata is striking, grappling, ground defense, joint locks, cavity pressing etc.  

Sure, one could ground fight or punch without learning kata.  But a lot of time, energy and thought went into the development of many kata (but by no means all the 'newer-learn-a-form-get-a-belt).  It preserves the essence of the art as it was developed so it's worth the time to learn so that it can be passed on to future generations.  Not the only means of teaching an art, but it is an effective one if taught properly.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 12, 2017)

Let me go a step further with and example and then real world application vs. a resisting opponent.

Horse stance and chambering the fists on the hips.  From a casual observation it's 'are you kidding me stupid'.  Right?  I mean...who drops down into a horse stance and fights with their fists chambered on their hips?  

Except...it really isn't for punching someone in a fight.  But if that's the way your taught, and then teach someone else, who teaches someone else....well, that's what you figure it has to be.  But it isn't.

Let's look at the horse stance through completely different glasses:  When someone moves their leg, let's say the right one so that you drop into a horse stance...what did you accomplish?  Well for starters you've lowered your center of gravity and given yourself a more stable base.  Okay, that's not a bad thing and could be quite useful.  But what about the wacky hip chambering thing you always see with the horse stance?  After all, it's in all the line drills right?  Visualize this, keeping in mind that typing this isn't the same as actually standing with you on the mats demonstrating it while I teach.  To chamber our fist on your hip, you're first extending your hand/fist in front of you.  Why?  What if we're grabbing something in that outstretched hand?  Say the persons belt, shirt, arm, coat or whatever.  Point is that we've grasped 'something' on the other person or the person themselves.  Now visualize what happens next as you chamber that fist.  Your fist corkscrews as you bring it in.  Kinda like if you have something or someone in that fist and now you're drawing them into your center of gravity...particularly if you're dropping your own center by extending one of your feet.  Not a bad way to off-balance someone that either interferes with what they were trying to do or sets you up for doing something to them or both.  Taking someone off-balance is a nice way to set them up for all kinds of 'other stuff'.

As a practical application, I'm doing this constantly on duty to bad guys or folks that may become bad guys if given the chance to remain on balance.  I'm grasping their shirt or belt or limb and lowering my center of gravity to take them off-balance.  Usually to set them at a position of disadvantage, say, for cuffing or to set up a take down to cuff them in a prone position once I've established positive control over them.  

So the 'horse stance' could well be a very stupid waste of time, or a basic and very sound principle that we use all the time without thinking about it after we've learned the principle. Depends on how it's taught.  From a grappling perspective, trying to off-balance someone is a very basic principle that is taught early on.  It is a foundational principle upon which a ton of other principles are taught.  So it is interesting that the 'horse stance' is taught so early on in karate, indeed as early as 'basic' line drills.  Which means karate is also a grappling art in addition to other things.  Interesting that you see it in kata as well which means that the principle, learned early on, is part of the technique/concept of the movement.  
So it really is the perspective in which you view something as to the actual value of the content that you derive from it.


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## Paul_D (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> But bunkai is scripted.


I think this may be the key to your difficulty in understanding how kata is intended to be applied.

Back in the bad old pre internet days I too was taught kata as a scripted fight.  E.g

Bad man attacks with punch A you defend with kata move 1.  Bad man then does kick B and you defend with kata move 2, bad man then performs attack 3 you finish him with kata move 3.

As we know this is a) utter bollocks (although it is unbelievably in the post internet age still taught that way by many) and b) totally and utterly impractical.  As soon as bad man deviates from the script the whole sequence falls apart.

Kata is intended to be applied both pre emptively and also applied "to" the enemy rather then "with" them. Or in other words it does not require to perform a set sequence of moves  for it to work, all that it require is for them to be on the receiving end of a one way stream of violence which ends only when they are no longer in a position to be a threat, or until you have created the opportunity to escape.

Kata does of course take into account natural responses, for example if someone covers their head to protect themselves from your strikes, kata teaches you to strip their limbs away so you can continue to hit them, but it does not require them to perform specific attacks at specific points in a specific order.  Any bunkai which relies upon that is flawed, and any instructor who teaches that way does not understand the very art they claim to teach.  

Trying to force kata to fit karate style attacks, from a karate-ka, delivered from six feet away, is usually what leads to most misunderstanding.


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let me go a step further with and example and then real world application vs. a resisting opponent.
> 
> Horse stance and chambering the fists on the hips.  From a casual observation it's 'are you kidding me stupid'.  Right?  I mean...who drops down into a horse stance and fights with their fists chambered on their hips?
> 
> ...


I will add another item into the mix, taken from the Chinese forms and fundamentals.  Often the movement is exaggerated in practice, and people who are not familiar with the purpose and the method criticize that exaggeration.  The fist chambered at the hip while in horse stance could be an example of this.  But the purpose of the exaggeration is to help you understand the body connection that gives a real boost to ones power.  Throwing a punch with the whole body working together is a lot more powerful than throwing a punch with the strength of the arm and shoulder.  The exaggerated movement can help a student understand how to make those connections and develop that skill.  Once that is done, then the exaggerated movement is reduced and eliminated in actual application, even if it is retained during training as a reinforcement mechanism.

But someone who isn't familiar with that approach to training simply sees an exaggerated movement in a training scenario, and believes that is how someone tries to fight, and thinks it's a bad idea.


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## drop bear (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, a fellow like Kong Soo Do, working for several decades in law enforcement, has found it to work quite well for him.  And he knows others for whom it works well also.  Do you think he is lying about that?
> 
> What people need to understand, and to be open to, is that there are more than one way to develop good skills.  Some ways work better for certain kinds of needs, others work better for other kinds of needs, and some ways work better for some people.  Thats it.  Nothing mystical or magical about it.
> 
> But people get hung up on thinking that their way is the only way that works.  It isn't.  Don't be that fool.



We shouldnt have to take a persons word for it.  

I get hung up on that.  

You are confusing multiple ways to develop skills with limited ways of showing that a skill has been developed. If an esoteric method to develop skill has been used there has to be more than somebody's word that it works.

I fought a dragon. An actual dragon so i think my method is probably best. I mean they are 20 feet long and breath fire.  That is a lot harder to deal with than a criminal going after your wallet.


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## Steve (May 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I will add another item into the mix, taken from the Chinese forms and fundamentals.  Often the movement is exaggerated in practice, and people who are not familiar with the purpose and the method criticize that exaggeration.  The fist chambered at the hip while in horse stance could be an example of this.  But the purpose of the exaggeration is to help you understand the body connection that gives a real boost to ones power.  Throwing a punch with the whole body working together is a lot more powerful than throwing a punch with the strength of the arm and shoulder.  The exaggerated movement can help a student understand how to make those connections and develop that skill.  Once that is done, then the exaggerated movement is reduced and eliminated in actual application, even if it is retained during training as a reinforcement mechanism.
> 
> But someone who isn't familiar with that approach to training simply sees an exaggerated movement in a training scenario, and believes that is how someone tries to fight, and thinks it's a bad idea.


This came up in another thread.  You don't have to understand the training methods in order to evaluate a demonstration of skill.  You can develop a skill however you wish.  A hammer isn't defined by how it is designed or how it functions.  It's defined by the result.  It may look completely foreign, but if the nail ends up holding two boards together, the hammer works.  That evaluation requires no knowledge at all about the hammer, how it functions or its design.  

confusing an evaluation of results with a judgement of methods is incorrect.  Doing that on purpose is dishonest.   

Regarding the dragon, I always figured @drop bear was chasing the dragon.


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## drop bear (May 12, 2017)

Steve said:


> This came up in another thread.  You don't have to understand the training methods in order to evaluate a demonstration of skill.  You can develop a skill however you wish.  A hammer isn't defined by how it is designed or how it functions.  It's defined by the result.  It may look completely foreign, but if the nail ends up holding two boards together, the hammer works.  That evaluation requires no knowledge at all about the hammer, how it functions or its design.
> 
> confusing an evaluation of results with a judgement of methods is incorrect.  Doing that on purpose is dishonest.
> 
> Regarding the dragon, I always figured @drop bear was chasing the dragon.



I unleash the dragon thank you very much.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I will add another item into the mix, taken from the Chinese forms and fundamentals.  Often the movement is exaggerated in practice, and people who are not familiar with the purpose and the method criticize that exaggeration.  The fist chambered at the hip while in horse stance could be an example of this.  But the purpose of the exaggeration is to help you understand the body connection that gives a real boost to ones power.  Throwing a punch with the whole body working together is a lot more powerful than throwing a punch with the strength of the arm and shoulder.  The exaggerated movement can help a student understand how to make those connections and develop that skill.  Once that is done, then the exaggerated movement is reduced and eliminated in actual application, even if it is retained during training as a reinforcement mechanism.
> 
> But someone who isn't familiar with that approach to training simply sees an exaggerated movement in a training scenario, and believes that is how someone tries to fight, and thinks it's a bad idea.



I think you're spot on with your assessment.  I'll toss in another example.  The 'down block';







Often taught as a block for a low attack, such as a kick.  How often to we see this in actual fights?  How effective would/could it be in a real fight?  Let's examine the use of this 'block' against a kick.  For a defense against a front kick...perhaps.  Although we need to realize that an reaction is slower than an action.  But I suppose it might work...maybe.  But against a side kick, particularly if the kicker has conditioned their shins the defense has some problems.  First, the defender using the 'block' would have to anticipate what type of kick the attacker is going to use.  Not an easy task in a chaotic, fluid situation.  Second, trying to block a side kick in this manner will require spot on timing and the correct point of contact i.e. the instep and not the shin.  Why?  Well if the attacker has conditioned their shins and your ulna connects with their shin your going to end up with an injured arm.  I speak from experience.  I've conditioned my shins over the years.  Attacker did no body conditioning.  His unconditioned limb came into dynamic contact with my conditioned limb and ended up with him on the ground in quite a lot of pain and injury.  Third, is there often a better interpretation for this movement?  Well, depending on the kata and associated movements it makes one hell of a hammer fist strike to the lower body part of an attacker.  






Again, the bunkai depends on the kata in question and the associated movements.  This is one example of a possible bunkai.


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## Paul_D (May 13, 2017)

John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.



Thanks for posting this.  Just signed up for his newsletter.  Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?


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## morlock (May 13, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thanks for posting this.  Just signed up for his newsletter.  Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?


Where can we find this newsletter?

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I don't think there is any difinitive way to say that one is better or worse than the other, in an absolute way.  Context matters, like I mentioned earlier.  What are the needs, and how does the individual person relate to and connect with the methodology?
> 
> I will say that if your desire is to get into a ring and fight competitively, then some form of sparring will probably serve you well.  But I am utterly unconvinced that it is necessary for someone who wil not fight in competition.  That doesn't mean that it cannot still be worth while.  But again, contex matters.
> 
> And I will also say, as I have said many times, that it is ok to recognize that you don't have the experience to properly understand some XYZ aspect of the martial arts.  No problem with that. But it becomes a problem if you decide that it's worthless, in spite of your lack of understanding.  That is a decision based on ignorance, I encourage you to not be that guy.



Why would sparring serve you well in the ring though? What specific ring skills does sparring give you that is not a self defence skill?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 13, 2017)

morlock said:


> Where can we find this newsletter?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk



Karate Kata Bunkai


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## morlock (May 13, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Karate Kata Bunkai


Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> John Burke Sensei teaches 100 applications for Gedan Barai, none of them are blocks.



It doesn't matter if they are blocks or not. The application either works or it doesnt.

This is not complicated. There is no clever logic. You show the aplication working. Then the aplication works. If you cant show the aplication dont expect people to believe you.


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## Paul_D (May 13, 2017)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thanks for posting this.  Just signed up for his newsletter.  Is he in any way associated with Abernethy Sensei?


No, he has developed similar stuff but independently.  John deliberately hasn't trained with Iain so he can't be accused of punching his stuff .  I train with John once a year when he comes up to my part of the UK.  Great guy.


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## Paul_D (May 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you cant show the aplication dont expect people to believe you.


I'm not asking you to believe me, nor do I care if you believe me.  Your inability to understand kata has no bearing on its effectiveness.


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## Paul_D (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No, he has developed similar stuff but independently.  John deliberately hasn't trained with Iain so he can't be accused of punching his stuff .  I train with John once a year when he comes up to my part of the UK.  Great guy.


*pinching, not punching.  Bloody auto correct!


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## marques (May 13, 2017)

As


Kong Soo Do said:


> I think you're spot on with your assessment.  I'll toss in another example.  The 'down block';
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a kickboxer (sort of) I very often rise the knew for a fake kick, step in, actual kick... And knowing that virtually everyone from beginner to the ones with little training and some who learned to block kicks with hands, it is just one of the easiest feints to punch, yet effective. (Even somehow effective against trained guys...)

And untrained people usually are more dangerous punching than kicking. So the "down block" should be used with caution. Another more extreme example is the X block defending growing kick (2 hands down, short distance..).

PS: As I didn't read the previous posts, I most be off topic.


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## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I'm not asking you to believe me, nor do I care if you believe me.  Your inability to understand kata has no bearing on its effectiveness.



You are asking me to believe you. Believeing you is the entirety of the kata argument.

That is my point.


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## Kong Soo Do (May 13, 2017)

morlock said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920W8 using Tapatalk



You're very welcome


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## Buka (May 13, 2017)

I'm really enjoying this thread.


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## Paul_D (May 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You are asking me to believe you.


No, I'm not.  You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.


drop bear said:


> Believeing you is the entirety of the kata argument.


It's not an arguement.  It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand.  That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.


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## Steve (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No, I'm not.  You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.
> 
> It's not an arguement.  It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand.  That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.


I think by argument he's using the philosophy definition.   You're asserting a conclusion based upon premises.  Thats an argument.


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## drop bear (May 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No, I'm not.  You are free to believe what we you want, but your belief and inability to understand kata does not change its ability to function.
> 
> It's not an arguement.  It's people explaining kata to you, and you telling them they are wrong based on your inability to understand.  That's not an arguement, it's just contradiction.



Why are you relying on belief either way? 

I don't understand how martial arts is faith based.

I mean even if I understood kata. There is still no evidence to understand or not.


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## Paul_D (May 14, 2017)

Steve said:


> I think by argument he's using the philosophy definition.   You're asserting a conclusion based upon premises.  Thats an argument.


I was having a little fun with part, 'twas too tempting to resist....

O: Oh yes I did! 

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did! 

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

M: It's just contradiction!


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## Kong Soo Do (May 14, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm really enjoying this thread.



Me too.  The information leading to a link to John Burke's website was a nice bonus.


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## drop bear (May 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I was having a little fun with part, 'twas too tempting to resist....
> 
> O: Oh yes I did!
> 
> ...



Yeah but you are missig a huge part of the kata explanation. The bit where you show it works so I don't have to just believe you.

I mean ok. Not your argument then. Your explanation requires my belief.  I have to believe you used it effectively. just like you have to believe I fought a dragon or there is no Argument/explanation.

I can explain how big the dragon was. And how drop bear fu was effective. A breakdown of fire blocks and such. But at some point I have to show the whole thing isn't just made up.

Or all the understanding in the world doesn't really matter.

Do you at least understand that?


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## Kong Soo Do (May 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> No, he has developed similar stuff but independently.  John deliberately hasn't trained with Iain so he can't be accused of punching his stuff .  I train with John once a year when he comes up to my part of the UK.  Great guy.



I'm quite liking his website and videos.  Smart to keep what he offers separate from Iain.  Good to get different perspectives on bunkai.


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## donald1 (May 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> There is nothing wrong with his club.  How are you defining sparring?  Are you talkng about sport/competion sparring?
> 
> Traditional to me means before Karate became a sport, so I would not expect to see any sport/competion sparring.  Most modern clubs call themselves traditional, but are in fact nothing of the sort.


No. I mean actual sparring. not sport.


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## Paul_D (May 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> No. I mean actual sparring. not sport.


What is your definition of actual sparring as opposed to sport sparring?


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## donald1 (May 15, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> What is your definition of actual sparring as opposed to sport sparring?


actual sparring hurts more if you get hit right? obviously you wanna be careful not to hurt your opponent. i cant speak for sport sparring as ive never actually payed much attention to sport MA


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## Flying Crane (May 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> actual sparring hurts more if you get hit right? obviously you wanna be careful not to hurt your opponent. i cant speak for sport sparring as ive never actually payed much attention to sport MA


I don't find that to be any kind of definition of anything.


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## drop bear (May 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> actual sparring hurts more if you get hit right? obviously you wanna be careful not to hurt your opponent. i cant speak for sport sparring as ive never actually payed much attention to sport MA



This is sports sparring.





This is self defence sparring.






In sport you wear protective gear. There is a ref. And rules. The surface is padded and there is no ability to access weapons.

In self defence there may be weapons, there is no ref, the ground may not be predictable and you are not wearing padding.


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## JR 137 (May 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> actual sparring hurts more if you get hit right? obviously you wanna be careful not to hurt your opponent. i cant speak for sport sparring as ive never actually payed much attention to sport MA


An example of sport sparring...





Looks pretty painful.  Ok, maybe not sparring, but sport nonetheless.


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