# sometimes i just feel like throwing my hands up and walking away from this job



## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

KINGSTON, Tenn.  A pair of brothers who shot and killed a sheriff's deputy and his friend during a ridealong posted photos of the bodies on a sign outside their home.

Rocky Joe and Leon Houston said they "want the world to remember what happened" when uninvited guests shows up at their farm, according to the Knoxville News Sentinel.

Deputy Bill Jones, 53, and ride-along Mike Brown, 44, died in May 2006 when they went to the Houstons' property to serve an outstanding arrest warrant for Rocky, who had failed to appear in court. The two groups exchanged gunfire, and Jones and Brown died at the scene.

It was never determined who fired first. In court, the Houston brothers said the men "came to kill them" and were never prosecuted in the deaths.

The night of the shootout, forensic specialists took photos of the bullet-riddled corpses inside Jones' patrol car that became evidence in the Houstons' trial. Authorities said because they are public record, posting them is not a crime.

The photos, along with court records, names of public officials and claims of government corruption, are posted on at least a dozen billboards outside the property and next to the road, according to the article.

"It goes without saying that any public display on their own property of these photos in whatever manner by the Houstons is despicable and certainly runs counter to the Houstons' claims of innocence," 9th Judicial District AG Russell Johnson said Thursday in a news release.

Rocky Houston told the paper he will not take down the signs.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

The article is wrong that they were never prosecuted they were but were never found guilty they had hung jury and never re-tried


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## Sukerkin (Sep 6, 2012)

That is horrible, good sir .  I share with you feelings of disgust and disbelief that someone could behave so.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Sometimes its just not worth it to know that could happen to me and my kids could accidentally see pictures of me like that.  I'm so furious I'm ready to.drive to Tenn and rip the pictures down myself. I actually started pacing around my living room when I read it.  I could.careless they got away with murder its not the first time I've known cop killers to walk free but to gloat about it man I can't take that.


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## Tgace (Sep 6, 2012)

"Who shot first?" Really? 

A uniformed officer in a marked car pulls up and is met by a man with a gun and we have to figure out who shot first?


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

What could be done is to turn this back on them, I don't know if this happens in America but here at places where someone has died, been murdered etc people lay flowers, cards, candles etc to commenorate the dead and show their respect. What local people could do along with as many others they can get is to put as many flowers, candles whatever on the ground by the photots, in fact as far along the outside of the properties fenceline as they can. legally I suppose theres little that can be done about the killers now but a very public display of support and respect for the men they murdered would go a long way I think. If the photos are then seen as a memorial they lose the purpose the killers intended them for and they will either remove them or at least not renew them.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> What could be done is to turn this back on them, I don't know if this happens in America but here at places where someone has died, been murdered etc people lay flowers, cards, candles etc to commenorate the dead and show their respect. What local people could do along with as many others they can get is to put as many flowers, candles whatever on the ground by the photots, in fact as far along the outside of the properties fenceline as they can. legally I suppose theres little that can be done about the killers now but a very public display of support and respect for the men they murdered would go a long way I think. If the photos are then seen as a memorial they lose the purpose the killers intended them for and they will either remove them or at least not renew them.



Great idea but I would think most people would be fearful to even approach the property.  But that is a great idea I may try to contact the fop in that area and suggest it


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tgace said:


> "Who shot first?" Really?
> 
> A uniformed officer in a marked car pulls up and is met by a man with a gun and we have to figure out who shot first?



If the article is correct about the pictures they never even for out of the car before they were shot.


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## Tgace (Sep 6, 2012)

What kind of prosecutor do they have down there? What kind of jury??


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Where is the justice dept on this.  If it were reversed they would be charging the officers with civil rights violations.  This is the hottest I've been in a long time my bloods boiling here.


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2012)

Tgace said:


> What kind of prosecutor do they have down there? What kind of jury??



Apparently ones who have no clue.


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## WC_lun (Sep 6, 2012)

Sad and disapointing story.  I think it would be time for the loacal government to pass a law.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Great idea but I would think most people would be fearful to even approach the property. But that is a great idea I may try to contact the fop in that area and suggest it



Perhaps close enough to make a point but not too close? A candlelit vigil perhaps and as gruesome as it sounds use the photos they are using ( along with decent proper photos) so that the people take ownership rather than the killers with the photos showing heroes rather than victims. Perhaps too a fundraising effort so the families can take them to a civil court as I believe you can? 
Even killers like these who assume they are untouchable like to think they either have the locals tacit support or their fear, for a huge crowd of people to show their disapproval would be a good way of standing up to them.


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2012)

What a sad story.  Its a shame....these punks should be rotting the rest of their life in a cold cell, never seeing the free world!  Oddly enough, if it were the police who did this, oh, look out...all hell would be breaking loose.  Look at all the trouble that happens when the military posts pics of dead bodies.  

Now, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying that what the military does is right, in regards to posting pics of dead bodies, I'm simply saying that we've all seen the issues that have arisen.  how any lawyer or jury, could say that its ok for these guys to keep the pics up...well, thats ****ed up!


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps close enough to make a point but not too close? A candlelit vigil perhaps and as gruesome as it sounds use the photos they are using ( along with decent proper photos) so that the people take ownership rather than the killers with the photos showing heroes rather than victims. Perhaps too a fundraising effort so the families can take them to a civil court as I believe you can?
> Even killers like these who assume they are untouchable like to think they either have the locals tacit support or their fear, for a huge crowd of people to show their disapproval would be a good way of standing up to them.


The officers mom did take them to civil court and won a 5 million dollar judgement for wrongful death but the brothers said they won't pay her a dime.


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> The officers mom did take them to civil court and won a 5 million dollar judgement for wrongful death but the brothers said they won't pay her a dime.




Wow, they're stars aren't they! I hope there's some sort of process where it can be enforced, it would be poetic justice if they lost their property they were 'defending'.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Wow, they're stars aren't they! I hope there's some sort of process where it can be enforced, it would be poetic justice if they lost their property they were 'defending'.



I was looking for more info because that was my first thought was to seize the assets including the property but I think its deeded to the killers parents not the brothers.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2012)

So, there was a deputy and a ride along.  That's just another way of saying "civilian."  Or do I have that wrong?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> So, there was a deputy and a ride along.  That's just another way of saying "civilian."  Or do I have that wrong?



Correct a civilian


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## Tez3 (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I was looking for more info because that was my first thought was to seize the assets including the property but I think its deeded to the killers parents not the brothers.



Well the parents have to pass on sometime and the property will be left to them so hopefully on the day of their last parents lefts funeral the bailiffs come and take the property away!.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Correct a civilian


Damn...  that's really terrible.


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## jks9199 (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Where is the justice dept on this.  If it were reversed they would be charging the officers with civil rights violations.  This is the hottest I've been in a long time my bloods boiling here.


Are you surprised that the Justice Department isn't touching this with a ten foot pole?  They'll hang a cop even if a jury finds the cop not guilty...  I know someone who had an FBI Special Agent on a ride-along/joint op thing when there was an officer involved shooting, and they responded.  Before they got there, while they're still getting details, the FBI Special Agent was already scheming about what to charge the cop with.  (Incidentally -- very clean, very justified shooting.  Poor FBI had nothing to do...)


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## jks9199 (Sep 6, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> The officers mom did take them to civil court and won a 5 million dollar judgement for wrongful death but the brothers said they won't pay her a dime.


They probably can't pay, anyway... but it's a symbolic victory.

I kind of like the idea of shunning...  Wonder how long they'd last if the community would band together, and simply ignore them, and refuse to do business with them.  Wanna buy gas?  Sorry, we're out.  Groceries?  Darn, we can't take money today.  Pizza delivered?  Nope, we won't drive to your house.


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## jks9199 (Sep 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> So, there was a deputy and a ride along.  That's just another way of saying "civilian."  Or do I have that wrong?



Sometimes. A ride-along is a person doing just that -- riding along.  It's a chance to see what cops do, for real.  Sometimes, it's a chance for a candidate to get a feel for a department, and vice-versa.  (Yes, I know of candidates who got nixed because of conduct during a ride-along.  It takes a lot -- but it can happen.  More likely, it'd point to an area to pay a bit more attention to.)  Sometimes, it's a cop from another area, who may or may not have jurisdiction.  For example, ballen might decide to see what I do, and hit me up and do a ride-along.  He's got no jurisdiction, but he's not really a "civilian", either.


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## SavageMan (Sep 6, 2012)

As someone who works for the Department of Justice I can tell you with the Feds it's all about liability and their lack of it. Unless its something that will make them look good for a job well done on their part forget it. We once had a prosecuting attorney who let it slip that one of his goals before he retired was to put away a cop. As a LEO - CO we hear this and see our fellow officers killed by drunks, drug addicts and thugs, then we see the public outcry when one of these sleaze bags end up dead during an action taken. It's hard to keep up any kind of morale with that kind thing going on. There was once a two part solution to things like that. It was called a tall tree and a short rope. Sometimes I wonder if we weren't better off before all this politically correct BS when civil disobedience was solved with a fire hose and neighborhoods were kept in check by officers who weren't afraid of some ******** law suit.


jks9199 said:


> Are you surprised that the Justice Department isn't touching this with a ten foot pole?  They'll hang a cop even if a jury finds the cop not guilty...  I know someone who had an FBI Special Agent on a ride-along/joint op thing when there was an officer involved shooting, and they responded.  Before they got there, while they're still getting details, the FBI Special Agent was already scheming about what to charge the cop with.  (Incidentally -- very clean, very justified shooting.  Poor FBI had nothing to do...)


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> As someone who works for the Department of Justice I can tell you with the Feds it's all about liability and their lack of it. Unless its something that will make them look good for a job well done on their part forget it. We once had a prosecuting attorney who let it slip that one of his goals before he retired was to put away a cop. As a LEO - CO we hear this and see our fellow officers killed by drunks, drug addicts and thugs, then we see the public outcry when one of these sleaze bags end up dead during an action taken. It's hard to keep up any kind of morale with that kind thing going on. There was once a two part solution to things like that. It was called a tall tree and a short rope. Sometimes I wonder if we weren't better off before all this politically correct BS when civil disobedience was solved with a fire hose and neighborhoods were kept in check by officers who weren't afraid of some ******** law suit.


While I agree with the sentiment of protecting and supporting the guys on the front line, I am 100% confident that we are better off now than when people were lynched and the police beat the **** out of people with sections of a fire hose.


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## SavageMan (Sep 6, 2012)

While I'm sure that my statements were taken by the majority as bias if not offensive I stand by it. When you have to go tell a parent that their child will never be coming home again or look at the faces of a fallen officers family you find some resentment in how the system has become so offender friendly. Then when you work for the system that houses and caterers to the worst of these offenders in the world and see that the only remorse they carry is the time they loose in getting caught. Stories like this can make you sick. The system has become weak because we as a society have become weak. There are no true examples of consequence anymore. The only time you hear about an execution in the news is by the bleeding hearts calling out for mercy. Did any of the victims get mercy. And then you get the general public saying things like "As an officer you know your putting your life at risk it's part of their job right?". We will never see our society start holding the offenders held truly accountable. Only when you become a victim or are close to a victim does the average person start screaming for justice. In our modern age it's much more acceptable to think that the authority figure, or the circumstance of the offenders past is to blame. Not the fact that the social filth could care less if they break the law , let alone hurt or kill some one in the process. And we can lay the blame on agencies like the DOJ, FBI or Internal Affairs go ahead pick one. But the truth is it starts with the group that says " We can't do that we're better than that." Funny how when we weren't better than that a person could send their kids to school without going through a metal detector, and police officers were considered heroes not potential pay days. 


Steve said:


> While I agree with the sentiment of protecting and supporting the guys on the front line, I am 100% confident that we are better off now than when people were lynched and the police beat the **** out of people with sections of a fire hose.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

Another hard day today Baltimore Police officer Forrest "Dino" Taylor will be buried today.  I'll be apart of the traffic detail for the procession.  As we plan that today we morn the loss of another Maryland officer who was killed last night Harford County Officer Charles B. Licato dies in a single vehicle accident at approx 0230 hrs


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## Tez3 (Sep 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Another hard day today Baltimore Police officer Forrest "Dino" Taylor will be buried today. I'll be apart of the traffic detail for the procession. As we plan that today we morn the loss of another Maryland officer who was killed last night Harford County Officer Charles B. Licato dies in a single vehicle accident at approx 0230 hrs



:asian:


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> While I'm sure that my statements were taken by the majority as bias if not offensive I stand by it. When you have to go tell a parent that their child will never be coming home again or look at the faces of a fallen officers family you find some resentment in how the system has become so offender friendly. Then when you work for the system that houses and caterers to the worst of these offenders in the world and see that the only remorse they carry is the time they loose in getting caught. Stories like this can make you sick. The system has become weak because we as a society have become weak. There are no true examples of consequence anymore. The only time you hear about an execution in the news is by the bleeding hearts calling out for mercy. Did any of the victims get mercy. And then you get the general public saying things like "As an officer you know your putting your life at risk it's part of their job right?". We will never see our society start holding the offenders held truly accountable. Only when you become a victim or are close to a victim does the average person start screaming for justice. In our modern age it's much more acceptable to think that the authority figure, or the circumstance of the offenders past is to blame. Not the fact that the social filth could care less if they break the law , let alone hurt or kill some one in the process. And we can lay the blame on agencies like the DOJ, FBI or Internal Affairs go ahead pick one. But the truth is it starts with the group that says " We can't do that we're better than that." Funny how when we weren't better than that a person could send their kids to school without going through a metal detector, and police officers were considered heroes not potential pay days.


Our system is offender friendly because our founding fathers believed in the principles of "innocent until proven guilty."  Stories like this do make me sick, and I am glad that there are people who are willing to put their lives on the lines to keep the peace.  I am friends with many LEO, along with firefighters, EMTs and several active duty military soldiers out of joint base Lewis/McChord.  I have nothing but respect for them, because they choose to put themselves out there as first responders.  

But, their contributions are meaningless if the system in which they work is corrupt.  Lynching people, vigilante justice, and abuses of power undermine their sacrifice and sully any positive works that they've done.  

If the question is, "can we do better?" I believe that we can.  But suggesting that we were better off when our cops were jackbooted thugs, little better than criminals with badges, I disagree completely.  

I respect that you have an opinion, but frankly, we're a country governed by the rule of law.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> :asian:



Thanks its going to be a rough one I hate crying in uniform and I'll def be shedding a few tears at the funeral today.  17 year vet with a wife and 4 kids RIP brother we will take it from here your time in hell is done.


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

Im gonna float somewhere between the two points. I don't want to see us go back to the jackboot days either, but we really do have a problem with our legal system when "deals" are the goal vs trials and when probation after reduction after dismissal after "package deal" gets handed out over and over again to some of the animals in human skin we keep locking up.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

Tgace said:


> Im gonna float somewhere between the two points. I don't want to see us go back to the jackboot days either, but we really do have a problem with our legal system when "deals" are the goal vs trials and when probation after reduction after dismissal after "package deal" gets handed out over and over again to some of the animals in human skin we keep locking up.



Problem is pleas are better for both defense atty and prosecutors its a conviction for the prosecution who only care about conviction rates and the defense can show other clients look what this guy was charged with and look at the deal I worked out.  So that will never stop


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

Tgace said:


> Im gonna float somewhere between the two points. I don't want to see us go back to the jackboot days either, but we really do have a problem with our legal system when "deals" are the goal vs trials and when probation after reduction after dismissal after "package deal" gets handed out over and over again to some of the animals in human skin we keep locking up.


I agree.  As I said, we can do better.  But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads.  Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve.  But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?

Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full.  Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever.  We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

Steve said:


> I agree.  As I said, we can do better.  But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads.  Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve.  But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?
> 
> Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full.  Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever.  We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.



I would hope that this was just frustration and hyperbole vs a belief that we can or should actually go back to lynch mobs.


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

And while Im all for cutting out the problem at the root (if thats even possible) we still have to yank out the individual weeds before our entire lawn is nothing but dandelions.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

Tgace said:


> And while Im all for cutting out the problem at the root (if thats even possible) we still have to yank out the individual weeds before our entire lawn is nothing but dandelions.


I like the metaphor, but your yard waste bin is overflowing from pulling all the weeds.  Perhaps you need to consider preventing at least some of the weeds in the first place.


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

We have been trying different yard treatments for many years. They always seem to keep coming back. 

Anyway, Im a weed puller not a yard chemical scientist. And Im not about to let my yard run wild while I await the new miracle weed treatment.


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

And I have found that, as long as I keep it up, if I keep pulling the weeds out of my lawn the grass stays green for a while. The problem is...unless I pull out the roots they keep coming back. But sometimes I notice that the ones that keep appearing get smaller and less obvious the more I pull them out. It's a never ending battle against the weed.

Of course they just seem to grow all the more on my neighbors lawns.....


(It actually is a pretty good metaphor as far as it goes  )


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

Tgace said:


> And I have found that, as long as I keep it up, if I keep pulling the weeds out of my lawn the grass stays green for a while. The problem is...unless I pull out the roots they keep coming back. But sometimes I notice that the ones that keep appearing get smaller and less obvious the more I pull them out. It's a never ending battle against the weed.
> 
> Of course they just seem to grow all the more on my neighbors lawns.....
> 
> ...


Not a bad metaphor.   Two quick points.  First, with the metaphor, we need to both manage the weeds we have and also prevent new weeds from growing.  

Regarding the thread, there's a big difference between what you and I are talking about, and returning to the "good old days" when the police were, in some places, little more than the "enemy we know."


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## Tgace (Sep 7, 2012)

Steve said:


> Not a bad metaphor.   Two quick points.  First, with the metaphor, we need to both manage the weeds we have and also prevent new weeds from growing.
> 
> Regarding the thread, there's a big difference between what you and I are talking about, and returning to the "good old days" when the police were, in some places, little more than the "enemy we know."



Agreed...on all counts.


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## SavageMan (Sep 7, 2012)

Once again I point out as I did before that certain people within our society would rather make excuses for the criminals than hold them accountable. Life is hard, there are a lot of people out there who grew up poor and who had to fight for everything they've got. But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior. The point I'm trying to get across is until we as a society take action and publicly hold these monsters accountable for their actions it will only get worse. You will never change a wolfs nature to prey upon the flock. But if you hang a wolfs hide on a post the wolf will stay clear of the flock. Extreme times sometimes call for extreme measures. We lost two State Troopers last week and a Deputy from one county over less than a year ago here in West Virginia. Where is the call for justice for them. Instead you turn on the Internet and see a picket line where a know drug dealer and meth addict blew his own brains in the back of a cruiser. Now there is a civil suit pending against the department for his death. One less I got to watch. With statements like " We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up the system" that kind of mentality you take into consideration the criminal more so than the victim. That is as much of the problem as any prosecuting attorney or sleaze bag defense attorney



Steve said:


> I agree.  As I said, we can do better.  But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads.  Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve.  But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?
> 
> Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full.  Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever.  We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> Once again I point out as I did before that certain people within our society would rather make excuses for the criminals than hold them accountable. Life is hard, there are a lot of people out there who grew up poor and who had to fight for everything they've got. But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior. The point I'm trying to get across is until we as a society take action and publicly hold these monsters accountable for their actions it will only get worse. You will never change a wolfs nature to prey upon the flock. But if you hang a wolfs hide on a post the wolf will stay clear of the flock. Extreme times sometimes call for extreme measures. We lost two State Troopers last week and a Deputy from one county over less than a year ago here in West Virginia. Where is the call for justice for them. Instead you turn on the Internet and see a picket line where a know drug dealer and meth addict blew his own brains in the back of a cruiser. Now there is a civil suit pending against the department for his death. One less I got to watch. With statements like " We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up the system" that kind of mentality you take into consideration the criminal more so than the victim. That is as much of the problem as any prosecuting attorney or sleaze bag defense attorney


I want to be very sure I understand what you're saying.  You think I'm part of the problem and indirectly culpable in the murders of police officers?  

It's clear that you have strong feelings and are very close to this issue, but the point I was making before and will try to make again more clearly is this.  You're not doing yourself any good by overstating your position.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2012)

I've given it a little thought and maybe this will make it more clear.  

SavageMan, you say this: "_There was once a two part solution to things like that. It was called a tall tree and a short rope. Sometimes I wonder if we weren't better off before all this politically correct BS when civil disobedience was solved with a fire hose and neighborhoods were kept in check by officers who weren't afraid of some ******** law suit."

_And then you say this:  "_But that is still no excuse for criminal behavior."__

_Isn't lynching people, even people whom you believe are criminals, murder?  Do you think that the law doesn't apply to you?  Or are you suggesting that it's not murder or assault when you do it because you're doing it for the right reasons?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

Just a report from the funeral today for a man that gave his life for his community.  Amazing show of support at least 300 police cars from several states,  another 100+ police motorcycles few dozen fire trucks.  Ofc Taylor was a member of a police motorcycle club there were another 100+ bikes from his club.  His wife and kids thanked each of us as we stood and saluted her.  She was thanking us we should have been thanking her for her sacrifice.  Taps played and 21 guns saluted and not a dry eye in the house.  There children were so strong and brave standing by the casket.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 7, 2012)

And on that note I'm going to go home now hug my wife and kids tell them.I love them and just be with them.  Good night all


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## ballen0351 (Sep 9, 2012)

MD lost another officer last night.  Aberdeen Police Officer Charles Armetta RIP bad week in MD for law enforcement


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 10, 2012)

MJS said:


> Apparently ones who have no clue.



I haven't looked at the location.  Some places still think poorly of police, even local police.  They may also fear local bad guys.  I don't know if either is at play or not.  It may even be an incompetent prosecutor.  Sad if it is one of those.



WC_lun said:


> Sad and disapointing story. I think it would be time for the loacal government to pass a law.



If you mean against posting such a sign, it would be difficult, although probably not impossible.  The problem would be in 1st Amendment rights of free speach in federal court, or even possibly in the State Court.



MJS said:


> What a sad story. Its a shame....these punks should be rotting the rest of their life in a cold cell, never seeing the free world! Oddly enough, if it were the police who did this, oh, look out...all hell would be breaking loose. Look at all the trouble that happens when the military posts pics of dead bodies.
> 
> Now, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying that what the military does is right, in regards to posting pics of dead bodies, I'm simply saying that we've all seen the issues that have arisen. how any lawyer or jury, could say that its ok for these guys to keep the pics up...well, thats ****ed up!



Pleas be careful in your choice of words.  The military does not post photos of dead bodies to my knowledge and hasn't for quite a long time.  News media does.  Military personnel not following regulations may submit them to the media, or send them to relatives who submit them to the news media.  "The military" does not.



ballen0351 said:


> The officers mom did take them to civil court and won a 5 million dollar judgement for wrongful death but the brothers said they won't pay her a dime.



She could presumably take them back to court for a forced judgement against any property the brothers own.  If permitted under the State laws, she might prefer to sell the judgement to a third party corporation or business that would not be an easy target for the brothers.


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## Instructor (Sep 10, 2012)

I lived in Kingston TN for a few years.  I can honestly say this story doesn't surprise me.  Thanks to OP for posting it, I'll share it.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 10, 2012)

MJS said:


> Apparently ones who have no clue.





WC_lun said:


> Sad and disapointing story. I think it would be time for the loacal government to pass a law.





MJS said:


> What a sad story. Its a shame....these punks should be rotting the rest of their life in a cold cell, never seeing the free world! Oddly enough, if it were the police who did this, oh, look out...all hell would be breaking loose. Look at all the trouble that happens when the military posts pics of dead bodies.
> 
> Now, so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not saying that what the military does is right, in regards to posting pics of dead bodies, I'm simply saying that we've all seen the issues that have arisen. how any lawyer or jury, could say that its ok for these guys to keep the pics up...well, thats ****ed up!





Steve said:


> I agree. As I said, we can do better. But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads. Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve. But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?
> 
> Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full. Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever. We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.



No doubt we can do better.  But what is better?  How do we prevent having to put people in jail?  My two cents is that it has to start in the home.  Kids have to be taught respect.  

Respect for their home, their teachers, their neighbors, others' property, law.  We don't do that anymore from what I see.  Kids are taught be TV programs and other kids that it is OK to do only what 'you' want to do.  Snide or flat out disrespect to parents or teachers is OK since they don't have a clue about anything important, especially the all-knowing youth of today.

Also, I salute you.  How wonderful to live where it is safer than any other time in history.  That hasn't been my experience, sorry to say.  I guess we have lived on different streets.


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> No doubt we can do better.  But what is better?  How do we prevent having to put people in jail?


Jackpot questions right there.  





> My two cents is that it has to start in the home.  Kids have to be taught respect.


I would take it back a little further and say that I agree with you in that it has to start with KIDS.  Does it have to start at home?  Well, great if the kids have a "home," but it sets us ("us" meaning society at large) up for failure because it depends upon something that we already know millions of kids don't have: a home.  And if we open that up to include kids who do have a "home," but for whom the home better resembles Thunderdome than a nurturing, safe place for kids to learn to become productive, healthy, and happy members of adult society.  

I understand that "respect starts at home" is a common turn of phrase, but in this case it is, I believe, a dangerous one.  Dangerous because it fails to confront the reality that many of the kids who grow up to become criminals are doing so precisely because they have no home, or their home is broken in some fundamental manner.

So, what's my point?  More to come on my next break.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 10, 2012)

Strange! Part of the things I tagged to reply to above in my previous thread, seem to have been added here. I didn't retag them so I don't know why.

But since I am again replying, may I suggest the metaphor of dandelions is a little flawed. If you were pulling them out of your yard and isolating them somewhere they could not have contact with your lawn or anyone elses, but were otherwise taken care of; maybe. But you are killing them in your metaphor, not what I think you want as a solution for criminals, no matter their offense?   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Again the added tagged items from both posts.  At least by going to advanced I saw them and took them out.


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2012)

I started a new thread.  The topic seemed to be drifting to crime and its prevention and would be better suited in the Study.  Also, this is getting pretty far afield from the original post, particularly considering the somber nature of the OP.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ther-topics-culled-from-Law-Enforcement-forum


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## MJS (Sep 10, 2012)

Steve said:


> I agree.  As I said, we can do better.  But, in my opinion, "better" means looking at where the crime is coming from and cutting it out at the root, but we've talked about that in other threads.  Once again, I absolutely believe that things can improve.  But when someone suggests that the answer is lengths of fire hose, rope and a sturdy tree branch, aren't you a little concerned?
> 
> Ballen, part of the problem is also that our jails and prisons are full.  Overall, our streets are safer than at any other period of time in our country, but we have more criminals than ever.  We have a lot of stupid *** laws on the books that are clogging up our justice system, and entire demographics that are basically raised to participate.



You're correct, and in many cases, criminals are let out early, and go right back to a life of crime.  Its a big revolving door.  IMO, one of the main issues, is the 'country club' atmosphere' to many of the jails/prisons out there today.  Perhaps if it was a bit more miserable, the desire to live the life they do, wouldn't be.  Then again, when the BHC (Bleeding Hearts Club) says the inmates have rights too, well, thats half the problem there.


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## MJS (Sep 10, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> No doubt we can do better.  But what is better?  How do we prevent having to put people in jail?  My two cents is that it has to start in the home.  Kids have to be taught respect.
> 
> Respect for their home, their teachers, their neighbors, others' property, law.  We don't do that anymore from what I see.  Kids are taught be TV programs and other kids that it is OK to do only what 'you' want to do.  Snide or flat out disrespect to parents or teachers is OK since they don't have a clue about anything important, especially the all-knowing youth of today.
> 
> Also, I salute you.  How wonderful to live where it is safer than any other time in history.  That hasn't been my experience, sorry to say.  I guess we have lived on different streets.



You're right.  Kids learn what they live.  I grew up in a LE family, and learned to respect the law.  What is better?  Dont know.  How do we stop people from going to jail?  Make it a miserable place.  Lock them up for 23 out of 24hrs a day.  You come out for 1hr, and then right back in your cell.  I dont know about you, but if that was me, I'd certain hate it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 11, 2012)

Everyone focuses on the 'bad' families etc but often the lack of respect for police officers comes from respectable, nice, hard working people who are otherwise thought to be the ideal repsonsible adults. Stop someone for speeding and/or breathalyse them and see the abuse that comes out of otherwise respectable people! Especially if these nice respectable people are actually drunk, for some reason it's the police officers fault...'can't you go and chase some real criminals'.  A great many people are supportive of the police until they are caught doing something they shouldn't then the police are 'fascists', if the police don't stop tearaways or vandalism then they are 'useless, waste of time, I don't know what we pay taxes for', all this said in front of the children who are otherwise taught to be respectful etc etc. To some, who should know better the police are just there to harass them and get insulted as such, I had a taste of that on MT today of that. I won't go into it more but it was from someone who otherwise is respectable and should know better but for many a police officer is a red rag to a bull and it's not always the people you think it is, not the gang members or layabouts but the family man who is delayed because of traffic and sees a police offcier 'not doing anything about it'. Sure people get frustrated, they fell guilty at being caught out doing something they shouldn't but why take it out on the police officer?


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## MJS (Sep 12, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> I haven't looked at the location.  Some places still think poorly of police, even local police.  They may also fear local bad guys.  I don't know if either is at play or not.  It may even be an incompetent prosecutor.  Sad if it is one of those.



Oh, I'm sure people do think poorly of the police.  Thats nothing new.  However, if the PD, lawyers, judges, etc, have that much fear instilled in them by the locals, well, thats a problem, if you ask me.




> Pleas be careful in your choice of words.  The military does not post photos of dead bodies to my knowledge and hasn't for quite a long time.  News media does.  Military personnel not following regulations may submit them to the media, or send them to relatives who submit them to the news media.  "The military" does not.



My apologies for the wording.  What I meant was....there have been numerous times, when members of the military, have been photographed, desecrating bodies of the deceased.  For example.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 17, 2014)

Another WTF moment
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/ex-militants-who-admit-killing-cops-seek-parole-n32221


> "If you want to talk about justice, it's been served," said Anne Lamb, the New York City co-chairwoman of The Jericho Movement, a group that advocates for political prisoners. "They have no reason to hold them in prison. It's not going to bring back Officer Piagentini or Officer Waverly Jones."



Not only are they guilty of killing 2 NY officers but pled guilty to killing a San Fran officer and got probation.


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