# Eye contact



## jkembry (Jun 13, 2008)

Last night during training and sparring we had a discussion on where one should look...primarily during sparring.   The conclusion was that eye contact was the most important.  Since I am beginning I am finding eye contact to be difficult...but when I make the connection, I do seem to be more aware of what is happening.  So, I was curious as to the thoughts here on ey contact during sparring.

- Jeff -


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## Cirdan (Jun 13, 2008)

The eyes will tell you everything. Make yourself unreadable.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 13, 2008)

I would advise against being so single focussed on the eyes.  

What is vital is the development of what is called _zanshin_ (loosely translated as awareness).  The ideal is that you are aware of where you are, what you are doing, where the opponent is, where everyone else etc.  

You broaden or narrow the scope of zanshin depending on circumstances - when it comes to your direct opponent, your observation should take in the whole body, not one part of it.

It takes practise tho', as it's a bit like trying to see without looking .


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 13, 2008)

remember the eyes can look one place and a kick or punch may go another so if you think their eyes will tell you where they are going to hit you may be incorrect.
Looking at the center of the chest and not staring you can see the whole body move


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## Logan (Jun 13, 2008)

This is a much debated subject. I think it depends on what you hope to accomplish from the situation, as well as the distance you are from the opponent. If you are outside striking range, the eyes can indicate when an attack will come. If they are inside striking range, peripheral vision is needed. The closer an attacker is to you, the odds of you reading it drop dramatically.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> remember the eyes can look one place and a kick or punch may go another so if you think their eyes will tell you where they are going to hit you may be incorrect.
> Looking at the center of the chest and not staring you can see the whole body move


 
Very wise advice.  You know I love it when I catch someone monitoring my eyes because then I feint with them (the eyes) and go somewhere else and it works everytime. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (read my eyes at your peril)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2008)

Logan said:


> This is a much debated subject. I think it depends on what you hope to accomplish from the situation, as well as the distance you are from the opponent. If you are outside striking range, the eyes can indicate when an attack will come. If they are inside striking range, peripheral vision is needed. The closer an attacker is to you, the odds of you reading it drop dramatically.


 
Also good advice!


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## MBuzzy (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm a proponent of watching the hips.  The eyes lie.  Especially if you're fighting someone experienced like Brian....This is especially important in arts with kicking.

The hips can't lie, if you want to throw a kick, the hips have to lead it.  simple body mechanics.  Even if it is a shorter kick with little hip movement, it has to be chambered.  The same with punches, most punches start from the hip as well (although it isn't difficult to throw a punch with just the shoulders).  Either way, looking at the hips gives you a better sense of the whole body and you can keep an eye on the shoulders and center of mass.

Center of mass would work as well.  I never look at the eyes though, too easy to fake.


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## Tez3 (Jun 13, 2008)

I don't know if anyone else has found this or whether it's my ineptitude that lead me to it! when I started doing kata it was always as a class, with us being beginners at the time we were all over the place bumping into each other even! Probably quite funny to watch. After a while I started to 'know' where people were without looking, I got an awareness of the others so I could avoid them if I or they made a mistake or just got to close, without breaking my concentration. Later I found it invaluable in team kata competitions. It does help with my sparring too as I get a sort of impression of when they are going to move and where.


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## CoryKS (Jun 13, 2008)

In sparring I've noticed that I tend to hang back and wait for my opponent to make an attack and then respond to it.  Sometimes I move forward a little bit to make him attack so that I can respond.  So I keep my eyes about midchest so I can watch his hands and look down to stomach level from time to time (eyes only; like checking the rearview mirror) to watch his legs.  This gives me an sense a of what he is about to do and, depending on our relative speed/skill levels, allows me to decide how I should respond.


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## wolfeyes2323 (Jun 13, 2008)

Greetings - Eye contact may change,  Looking someone in the eye may
help you discern intent and spirit , Before the match it has a use,
Once you are about to begin the focus may change .
Remember that looking someone in the eye is a two way street, 
and that you may be manipulated or fooled by the more experienced. 
IMO the best place to look is the Sternal Notch at the base of throat ,
and top of the sternum , using   peripheral vision you will be able to 
see movement of both hands and feet.    Try it,  stand at a kumite 
range, open the vision, and have your partner ,  move either 
hands or feet,  you should  be able to detect this while 
looking at the same spot,   The difference between looking at 
the eyes, and looking at the sternum ,is focus, you focus your
eyes intently when looking your opponent in the eyes, 
 you unfocus your eyes when looking at the sternum.   
This unfocus makes you harder to read,  and it should allow you 
to see the tell tale signs and movements of your opponents technqiue .

Romney^..^


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## morph4me (Jun 13, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> remember the eyes can look one place and a kick or punch may go another so if you think their eyes will tell you where they are going to hit you may be incorrect.
> Looking at the center of the chest and not staring you can see the whole body move


 
I agree, you can see the shoulders move, pick up subtle shifts of weight that preceed a kick, and generally better anticipate his next move. The only caveat I would add is to make sure it's a "soft" focus, dont look too intently or you'll miss the subtleties that give you openings



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Very wise advice. You know I love it when I catch someone monitoring my eyes because then I feint with them (the eyes) and go somewhere else and it works everytime.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Very sneaky, and effective. I've done the same thing myself :highfive:


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## tellner (Jun 13, 2008)

In addition to all the other Good Advice(tm) here's a bit of Maybe Useful Advice(tm).

Peripheral vision is much more sensitive to motion than foveal vision. If you want to be able to pick up movement, say on the part of someone who is trying to hit you, it's best to keep a soft focus and not stared directly. If you spread your vision out a bit you will be able to see the hips and shoulders, knees and elbows, maybe hands and feet that will provide the real tells.

The other reason to avoid staring at a particular body part is that that it leads to tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is the beginning of a lot of things that are not terribly helpful like auditory exclusion, hypervigilance, time distortion effects and so on.


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## jkembry (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks a bunch guys.  I appreciate all the feedback.  Now to put it into practice.

- Jeff -


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## INDYFIGHTER (Jun 16, 2008)

I watch the torso but I don't FOCUS on it.  I don't focus on any one thing rather rest my eyes on their center and let my periferal (spelling?) vision do it's job.


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## PEP-REP (Jun 16, 2008)

center of the body.. the eyes aren't what is gonna hit ya  LOL

but seriously.. likemost have said never focus on the eyes they will never tell you anything.. you know the song those lying eyes  LOL  

the body has to move if every so slighlty then you can react to it..

now from a tae kwon do point of view.. get with a partner.. in a normal distance for sparring.. look in their eyes and see if you can see their feet without looking down the answer is NO.. now look at the center of their chest you can see their whole body without moving your eyes..

Glenn


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## ShuriLeopard (Jul 17, 2008)

I agree with all who said to look at center of mass without focusing on anything in particular.  This is especially important in self-defense when you don't know from which direction danger exists.  However, this is for when the fray begins.  The eyes can be a real good clue as to whether a fight is about to happen or not.  They can also be used to diffuse a confrontation.


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## Jdokan (Jul 17, 2008)

My opinion.....watch the hollow spot of the throat...the body can't move with moving that point....but as others stated don't focus on any one thing......


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 19, 2008)

MOst schools of karate teach to watch the eyes while sparring at the beginner to advanced levels however the mastery of the art or any martial art for that matter is "zanshin" as already mentioned above.  This depth of awareness is almost scary when someone has a achieved it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 19, 2008)

jkembry said:


> Last night during training and sparring we had a discussion on where one should look...primarily during sparring. The conclusion was that eye contact was the most important. Since I am beginning I am finding eye contact to be difficult...but when I make the connection, I do seem to be more aware of what is happening. So, I was curious as to the thoughts here on ey contact during sparring.
> 
> - Jeff -


 
I don't know what karate wants you to do but I have always gone with what I learned form my Jujitsu sensei many years ago. We looked at the mid chest and that way we could see the arms and legs, we also did a lot of peripheral vision training as well. Looking at the eyes could be distracting, IMO, and not looking at the eyes has worked for e pretty well so far


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## theletch1 (Jul 19, 2008)

Chalk another one up to the center mass theory.


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## jkembry (Jul 21, 2008)

Thanks a bunch,

I am still working on just becoming aware, but have started experimenting with various things mentioned here.  Yesterday I was watching the throat area as well as the middle of the body.  I was quite surprised at the clues that are transmitted by different parts of the body as to the persons next move.


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## stickarts (Jul 21, 2008)

My focus is toward the chest but I open up my vision so I can see the entire body. I am aware of the eyes, facial expressions, the feet, and everything as much as possible. I don't think I would be able to see what the feet are doing so well if i stare at the eyes. This has worked well for my teachers, myself, and my students. Please let us know how everything goes for you!!


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jul 23, 2008)

Heh. I wonder how the always stare at the eyes theory holds up when dealing with multiple opponents? It always struck me as a very duel orientated method.
I tend to try not to focus on any one particular thing, keep my gaze roughly chest height and just allow my vision to pick out motion periphally.


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## naneek (Jul 29, 2008)

i like to look at the chin/throat area when fighting but not in a focused way, kind of like looking just past it and allowing my eyes to relax, the peripheral vision tends to pick up motion, well this works well for counter fighters


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## MA-Caver (Jul 29, 2008)

PEP-REP said:


> center of the body.. the eyes aren't what is gonna hit ya  LOL
> 
> but seriously.. likemost have said never focus on the eyes they will never tell you anything.. you know the song those lying eyes  LOL
> 
> ...


Agreed, this is where I watch my opponents but slightly above center near the throat. Wide field of vision as well. Eyes move the fastest of all muscles in the body so if you catch something just within the outer circle of vision your eyes will shift to that automatically and you should be able to catch it. 
Try also not to get so close to someone that you can't see most of them.


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## jkembry (Jul 29, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Agreed, this is where I watch my opponents but slightly above center near the throat. Wide field of vision as well. Eyes move the fastest of all muscles in the body so if you catch something just within the outer circle of vision your eyes will shift to that automatically and you should be able to catch it.
> Try also not to get so close to someone that you can't see most of them.



Thank *MA*,  I will give this a go at next training.  It makes sense that the eye muscles are the fastest...they always get me in trouble when I go for a field vision test at the docs....


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## Lynne (Aug 1, 2008)

We were told to watch the collar bone.  This reminds me, I have forgotten to do that!  At my level, I am thinking too much to have that loose awareness but I will try to relax a little more and incorporate it.


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## JustAVisitor (Aug 1, 2008)

I totally agree with Wolfeyes2323. And i am really glad that he mentioned the 'unfocus' thing. It is really important. You cannot trust what you see though.
In WC, i have learnt to make contact. Once i have contact i am much safer, because i know where my adversary is and i can anticipate what his/her next moves, without looking.


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## jkembry (Aug 1, 2008)

JustAVisitor said:


> I totally agree with Wolfeyes2323. And i am really glad that he mentioned the 'unfocus' thing. It is really important. You cannot trust what you see though.
> In WC, i have learnt to make contact. Once i have contact i am much safer, because i know where my adversary is and i can anticipate what his/her next moves, without looking.




Interesting thought...so I guess you are saying that deception can happen.  Please help me to understand what you mean by contact (physical contact....or just awareness....or perhaps a bit of both).


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## JustAVisitor (Aug 1, 2008)

The unfocus allows you to perceive what is coming up. But when it's there, there is a bridge between you and your opponent. Physical contact instantly gives in lots of information about your opponent. For example: where your opponent is, if s/he is open, if s/he is grounded, if s/he is tired, what are her/his next options, where is the face, the centerline etc. 
The best analogy that i can find is that it is like playing chess against the clock. Everything happens really fast. One move triggers the next move. Some sequences of moves are known by heart, others are newly tried out strategies.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 4, 2008)

While Ben Kenobi's adage of "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them" is true, it applies I think if there is a change in body chemistry (namely alcohol... even *one*), or the environment (smoke, heavy rain, etc. ). Otherwise if you've trained your eyes as well as the rest of you then you'll learn to see the shifting of the foot/weight, shoulders, torso and more importantly what their eyes are telling you. 
I've gone easy on a couple of fights when I glanced at the eyes of my opponent/attacker and saw (surprise to me) fear/doubt. But I've gone harder when I saw anger (red), rage and murderous intent. 
Quick glance at what the eyes are revealing to you and watch the body. If it's ON then staring at the eyes aren't going to do any good. Pre-build up to it, you know... "c'mon big boy what you got? huh? c'mon man, c'mon!!" (and variation of *that* theme, is when you watch the eyes and then glance occasionally when they realize what they've gotten themselves into. 
Remember people by and large are pretty stupid (including us at times)... even more so when they've downed anywhere between a pint to a quart of alcohol. I'm not saying be merciful but I'm not saying be Cobra-Kai either ("...mercy is for the weak!")_.


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## Shuri Ryu Sonny (Dec 31, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> remember the eyes can look one place and a kick or punch may go another so if you think their eyes will tell you where they are going to hit you may be incorrect.
> Looking at the center of the chest and not staring you can see the whole body move



Yes in my dojo we are told that during sparing we are to look at the persons midsection that way you can see both arms and legs just as they start the move. The reason we are told NOT to look at the eyes is because in my style Shuri-Ryu (Roberta Trias Kelly Faction) we have different emotions/faces we present to psyche out our attacker.


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## GBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I'm a proponent of watching the hips. The eyes lie. Especially if you're fighting someone experienced like Brian....This is especially important in arts with kicking.
> 
> The hips can't lie, if you want to throw a kick, the hips have to lead it. simple body mechanics. Even if it is a shorter kick with little hip movement, it has to be chambered. The same with punches, most punches start from the hip as well (although it isn't difficult to throw a punch with just the shoulders). Either way, looking at the hips gives you a better sense of the whole body and you can keep an eye on the shoulders and center of mass.
> 
> Center of mass would work as well. I never look at the eyes though, too easy to fake.


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## tellner (Jan 2, 2009)

Soft focus is the only way to go. If you focus on a particular point you do a bunch of things, all of them counterproductive. First, you start the entire bad stress response. It begins with tunnel vision and quickly goes to auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, cognitive dissonance and freezing. Second your peripheral vision and sensitivity to motion goes way down.


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## hungfistron (Jan 19, 2009)

Only immature technicians use the physical eye. This is the eye of strategy amd of clever tricks. They cannot cut with their spirit; they can only chop with their ego. For the physical eye, technique is a game. The physical eye is in a hurry; it can only enjoy victory. Why can't people understand that the meaning of victory is no conflict? The meaning of no conflict is no separation. The physical eye cannot see the truth of _satori_.


*-----Morihei Ueshiba*


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## Darren (Aug 7, 2022)

jkembry said:


> Last night during training and sparring we had a discussion on where one should look...primarily during sparring.   The conclusion was that eye contact was the most important.  Since I am beginning I am finding eye contact to be difficult...but when I make the connection, I do seem to be more aware of what is happening.  So, I was curious as to the thoughts here on ey contact during sparring.
> 
> - Jeff -


My father said he had met a former Vietnam veteran they were talking about the arts, my father being the show me type threw a punch at the vet, of course the vet blocked the punch my father asked him how he blocked the punch( it was my father that taught me how to box) my father said the vet told him the the pupils of someone’s eyes will get smaller just before a punch is thrown.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 7, 2022)

Darren said:


> My father said he had met a former Vietnam veteran they were talking about the arts, my father being the show me type threw a punch at the vet, of course the vet blocked the punch my father asked him how he blocked the punch( it was my father that taught me how to box) my father said the vet told him the the pupils of someone’s eyes will get smaller just before a punch is thrown.


Since the thread you're responding to is a teenager, it's unlikely that the people involved are going to respond. So I will do it for them.

The "fight or flight" response causes the pupils to dilate. "Rest and digest" causes constriction. There are plenty of ways people can telegraph their intent to throw a punch, but this is not one of them.


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## Cynik75 (Aug 8, 2022)




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## Darren (Aug 8, 2022)

Is that all there is? is teenagers here? If so is there a adult section here? Thank you!!


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 9, 2022)

Darren said:


> Is that all there is? is teenagers here? If so is there a adult section here? Thank you!!


He meant that you responded to a post from 2008, so the post itself is a teenager.

I must agree with Dirty Dog.  I will also say that if you can identify the change in a person's pupil size while you're sparring them, you must have much better eyes than I do.

Watch the center.  The eyes lie.  Movement starts in the hips.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 9, 2022)

Darren said:


> Is that all there is? is teenagers here? If so is there a adult section here? Thank you!!


The post you're replying to was 13 years old. A teenager. And the story you related was cute and entertaining, but factually incorrect.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 9, 2022)

In Japanese swordmanship, it is suggested that one should use ‘enzan no metsuke’, (as if looking at distant mountains) when looking at a potential enemy, thus encompassing the whole. This is because the peripheral retina is _very_ good at detecting _movement _and once that movement has been registered, it’s connections to the superior colliculus (in the tectum of the midbrain) will reflexly swing the eyes around to foveate the are that is moving for full-resolution vision!

Have you ever been lying on you sofa, in the cooling autumn and almost subconsciously, noticed scuttling in the periphery of ones vision, then directly seen it to be a spider, leap up at lightning speed and scream like a little girl? _That_ is ones superior colliculus in action and it’s very quick!

I’ve…ahem…never done that 😑👶🏽

(copied over from a very similar thread)


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