# Article on Krav Maga



## Ivan (Dec 23, 2020)

I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.


----------



## jobo (Dec 23, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.


so,,,,,, to paraphrase, km it superior coz it teachs adaptability,  using max aggression and doesnt attempt to teach skills through repetition

tma are inferior,  as they pick specific scenarios,  controlled aggresion and try and reinforce learning through repetition,  just like just about any other skill training

is that a fair summary?

you make it sounds like an anger management class in reverse


----------



## Ivan (Dec 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> so,,,,,, to paraphrase, km it superior coz it teachs adaptability,  using max aggression and doesnt attempt to teach skills through repetition
> 
> tma are inferior,  as they pick specific scenarios,  controlled aggresion and try and reinforce learning through repetition,  just like just about any other skill training
> 
> ...


Hahaha. Perhaps it does sound like that. I don't believe traditional martial arts are inferior, I believe that their training methods are. Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.

I brought this issue up in my traditional jiu-jitsu class and they said such training doesn't begin until I reached a black belt. But in other words, it means anyone who is training in this martial art who hasn't yet reached a black belt is in big trouble if they get into a street fight. In contrast, Krav Maga made me feel ready to apply the techniques it taught me from the very first lesson, as the techniques are applied quickly and forcefully from the get-go.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 24, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Hahaha. Perhaps it does sound like that. I don't believe traditional martial arts are inferior, I believe that their training methods are. Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.
> 
> I brought this issue up in my traditional jiu-jitsu class and they said such training doesn't begin until I reached a black belt. But in other words, it means anyone who is training in this martial art who hasn't yet reached a black belt is in big trouble if they get into a street fight. In contrast, Krav Maga made me feel ready to apply the techniques it taught me from the very first lesson, as the techniques are applied quickly and forcefully from the get-go.



My major issue is the testing and feedback of krav can quite simply be straight up rubbish. It doesn't really matter how fast the drills are applied. Sort of. 

And I did similar drill based stuff for a while in a system called scientific fighting congress. 

And the issue i had was as soon as someone wanted to actually punch me at speed I couldn't put together the drill based defenses I had practice. 

This is because generally there are really important details that are missed within these drills. That are the functional differences between techniques working and techniques not working.


----------



## jobo (Dec 24, 2020)

drop bear said:


> My major issue is the testing and feedback of krav can quite simply be straight up rubbish. It doesn't really matter how fast the drills are applied. Sort of.
> 
> And I did similar drill based stuff for a while in a system called scientific fighting congress.
> 
> ...


well this is the same rabit hole, we have been down many timrs before.

there is always a disconect between practice and reality when it comes to full speed full power, unless its ring fighting and then there a disconect between how ring fight are conducted and how attacks commonly happen

but is,,, before we do the well rehearsed debate almost certain the better of the two, provided you dont mind being punched and kicked  repeatedly week after week, which the major turn off for a lot of folk

how much any of this matters is of course almost entirly down to the abilities of who ever attacks you


----------



## paitingman (Dec 24, 2020)

I think KM is generally excellent at teaching people how to deal with aggression. 
From situational awareness, mindset, and drilling you can learn to ward off or regain control from a panicked response. 

The training I've seen and experienced is generally not good for or aimed at building great technique. They really love to go high stress and rush each other when doing pressure drills, trying to overwhelm the person doing the drill. 
Learning to resist that overwhelming feeling even while taking some damage, grit your teeth, and FIGHT BACK is very useful training. 

In my sparring experience, I've only maybe 4 people who could handle themselves on the mat and all had actual ring training. The rest of them could pretty much be toyed with when asked to glove up and step on the mat. But that's only like 5 clubs for sample size and MMA sparring is not really what they focus on. 
But I could say pretty much the same about TKD.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 24, 2020)

jobo said:


> well this is the same rabit hole, we have been down many times before.
> 
> there is always a disconect between practice and reality when it comes to full speed full power, unless its ring fighting and then there a disconect between how ring fight are conducted and how attacks commonly happen
> 
> ...



The issue is this makes self defence such an uncertain factor as to be rendered pointless.

An untrained person can win a fight. A UFC fighter can loose a fight. Therefore training has no effect on self defence. 

In which case what are people selling when they talk about self defence training?

Or my idea that ring fighting pathways will make you better at fighting and with resistant training against decent guys you will know if the training is having any effect at all. 

If you get better at fighting you will raise your odds of being able to defend yourself.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 24, 2020)

I think its drills are pretty neat and at least are good drills for militarising something.  Hammer fist and punching isnt unique or special andquality control issues arent reflective of the style.   (you cant copy right everything or sue everyone)

Not related to the article but if i recall i will skim it at least at a later date.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 24, 2020)

This I think is an example of what is missing from a krav style drill and for drills not really working. Generally  unless the guy has real experience you don't get a good grasp on how to win an entry or win an exit. And so your techniques almost stop working as soon as the other person moves.

You just have all of these elements you have not accounted for.

Where as here he has won an entry.

Where as this for example pretty much won't work.


----------



## jobo (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The issue is this makes self defence such an uncertain factor as to be rendered pointless.
> 
> An untrained person can win a fight. A UFC fighter can loose a fight. Therefore training has no effect on self defence.
> 
> ...


well of course it has an effect, the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed .

it may as you sugest be of no practicle value at all or it may, you cant even begin to calculate that. in the very general terms we are talking  about.

there are folk in my group that will never be in a postipn to defend themselves against any one over 12, not because there is anythibg wrong with either the system or the instuction, just that they are not prepared to suffer even mild discomfort let alone pain.

they complain bitterly and threaten to leave if you hit the focus pad to hard, have panic attacks if you grab them gently by the neck in an excersise about neck grabbing, and of course wont go on the floor if your doibg a throwibg exercise andthe first to calaple in a heap if there is a push up or similar exercise, they were hopless when they arived they will be hopeless 5 years from now.

they do however make up the greater % of the class and are therefore a financial necessity for the instructor

i ended up in conflict with the instructer for beibg heavy handed with them, when i was infact just playing with the intensity turned right down.i think the real issued was bubble bursting , i certainly wasnt hurting them

he decided to teach me a lession and gave me a full power wack, so i thought great, and wacked him back with a knee  in the chest, a move he had tought me, he spent a minete having a rage attack and and panting and glarinintensely  at me, serious considering attacking me, yea go on i thought il do you again.

my katate instruction is so effective i can take the instructer out


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 25, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.


This should be interesting.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 25, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> This should be interesting.


What are your thoughts?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> well of course it has an effect, the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed



Why do you think there is an effect? Without having a measure to tell


----------



## jobo (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Why do you think there is an effect? Without having a measure to tell


coz thereis a measure they are better at the mechanics of a punch for instance, so that a measure, is it not ?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> coz thereis a measure they are better at the mechanics of a punch for instance, so that a measure, is it not ?



It is a different measure.


----------



## jobo (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is a different measure.


but its A measure of effect,  which is what i said it was !


----------



## drop bear (Dec 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> but its A measure of effect,  which is what i said it was !



But that measure off effect doesn't effect your original statement.

 "if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed"


----------



## jobo (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> But that measure off effect doesn't effect your original statement.
> 
> "if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and attributed"


i know it doesnt effect my original statement, its not suppised to.  my orginal statement was correct, , its addituonal details on my original statement to answer your query


----------



## drop bear (Dec 25, 2020)

jobo said:


> i know it doesnt effect my original statement, its not suppised to.  my orginal statement was correct, , its addituonal details on my original statement to answer your query



Your original statement invalidates your additional details.

It makes no difference if someone can punch better mechanically or not if the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and atributes.

If we compare martial arts to the totality of violence one could possibly encounter there is literally no difference between training martial arts and eating potatoes. 

Which is why we don't make that comparison.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.


Every fighting system uses repetition.

As a person who trains in a TMA and who spars to learn.  I'm not sure how much resistance you think you'll actually need but, it doesn't take much to screw something up.   I could teach you Kung Fu and give you 10% resistance and you'll screw up the technique every time.  You won't be able to take 50% resistance until you know and understand the technique at a level where you can deploy it.  

Boxing is the same way.  How many videos have we seen where a boxer or MMA fighter challenges everyday people to try to hit them.  The fighters are able to avoid punches with very little resistance.

How much fighting resistance is this guy giving





My personal experience in terms of fighting resistance, is that some of you guys out there should be thankful your sparring partner doesn't crank it up to 50% and knock you on your back with a punch or kick to the face.  You should be thankful your ribs aren't breaking because you think not enough resistance isn't giving.  I spared with another instructor at 40%, I still had to pull punches, and had to cut the sparring session short for his saftey.  We had a total of 4 sparring sessions at that level of intensity.  By the time we finished the 4th the was dreading the thought of sparring at the level and getting busted up.

If you want to be effective with using TMA systems or any system, then you need to trust the technique that you are using.  You need to practice at a level that will allow you to safely take risks, and you need to accept that you are going to get hit a lot before you actually learn how to deploy the technique.

Sparring at a high aggression level is just going to make you play it safe with basic kicks and punches because the risk of being hit at that level = KO every sparring session.  

Start small and work your way up.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> This should be interesting.


Kids these days lol.   There always some young buck, thinking that people in TMA don't hit hard enough lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> This I think is an example of what is missing from a krav style drill and for drills not really working. Generally  unless the guy has real experience you don't get a good grasp on how to win an entry or win an exit. And so your techniques almost stop working as soon as the other person moves.
> 
> You just have all of these elements you have not accounted for.
> 
> ...


The ole Throw the Guy by catching his punching arm.. lol  Good luck with that one.  The thing about TMA that I don't like is that many school and students always think the attack is a punch.  Like literally every technique is almost taught as something that someone does in defense of a punch.  For whatever reason, the actually application of some techniques didn't get passed down correctly.  Either that or the teacher forgot the application and took a best guess.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 25, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> The ole Throw the Guy by catching his punching arm.. lol  Good luck with that one.  The thing about TMA that I don't like is that many school and students always think the attack is a punch.  Like literally every technique is almost taught as something that someone does in defense of a punch.  For whatever reason, the actually application of some techniques didn't get passed down correctly.  Either that or the teacher forgot the application and took a best guess.



The irony is you might be able to do it if you were super slick at hip throws. But you are not going to get slick at hip throws by setting it up off the punch like that.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 25, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The irony is you might be able to do it if you were super slick at hip throws. But you are not going to get slick at hip throws by setting it up off the punch like that.


yeah you would have to be really slick . not sure at which stage one would try to initiate catching the punching arm executing a hip throw.  I know which punch comes in at the same angle as shown in the video but, I just don't see how someone would catch it.   Usually people set up the big heavy punches buy nailing you with some faster punches.  People don't usually start off with the heavy haymaker first.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Every fighting system uses repetition.
> 
> As a person who trains in a TMA and who spars to learn.  I'm not sure how much resistance you think you'll actually need but, it doesn't take much to screw something up.   I could teach you Kung Fu and give you 10% resistance and you'll screw up the technique every time.  You won't be able to take 50% resistance until you know and understand the technique at a level where you can deploy it.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what Krav Maga allows you to do. You can practice your techniques with 100% intensity because you don't actually aim to knock a partner out. I can throw a punch at you with 100% force, but that doesn't mean I can't pull it right before it hits you - which is exactly how Krav Maga teaches you to experience the fear of having a punch coming at you, and the technique to avoid it, without punching you. You get powerhouse punches thrown at your face in random moments enough times, eventually, you'll get used to it, whether you get hit or not. It's not the punch that causes you to twitch, it's the fast movement and your lack of vision. The punches that hurt most, and scare you the most, are those you don't see coming.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Ivan said:


> That's exactly what Krav Maga allows you to do. You can practice your techniques with 100% intensity because you don't actually aim to knock a partner out. I can throw a punch at you with 100% force, but that doesn't mean I can't pull it right before it hits you - which is exactly how Krav Maga teaches you to experience the fear of having a punch coming at you, and the technique to avoid it, without punching you. You get powerhouse punches thrown at your face in random moments enough times, eventually, you'll get used to it, whether you get hit or not. It's not the punch that causes you to twitch, it's the fast movement and your lack of vision. The punches that hurt most, and scare you the most, are those you don't see coming.


I have a few things that I don't understand about your comment.
I've never seen a Krav Maga class done at 100% intensity. 
I've never known anyone who could pull a punch after sending it with 100% intensity.  Usually once that punch leaves it can't be pull or redirected by the attacker.
Powerhouse punches thrown at the face usually land unless you are dialing back the power greatly.  For example. I don't think it's physically possible for him to pull punches at the intensity level that he's throwing them.  I actually think he would hurt himself physically if he tried to pull his punches after they are sent out at 100%.  By the time he thinks about pulling the punch, the punch would have already landed.





These guys have a nice sparring pace, but they are no where near 100% intensity





This is low intensity at full power.  Even with this, I don't see how they  are able to pull punches.





This is high intensity at light power. And because it's light power, it's not 100% intensity.  Someone fighting at this intensity level with full power would be 100% intensity and someone would easily get hurt.


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

Ivan said:


> That's exactly what Krav Maga allows you to do. You can practice your techniques with 100% intensity because you don't actually aim to knock a partner out. I can throw a punch at you with 100% force, but that doesn't mean I can't pull it right before it hits you - which is exactly how Krav Maga teaches you to experience the fear of having a punch coming at you, and the technique to avoid it, without punching you. You get powerhouse punches thrown at your face in random moments enough times, eventually, you'll get used to it, whether you get hit or not. It's not the punch that causes you to twitch, it's the fast movement and your lack of vision. The punches that hurt most, and scare you the most, are those you don't see coming.


well yes and no, you can get use to avoiding fast moving objects that wernt actually going to hit you at all as contradictory as this statement soubds, which has its problem, when part of the skill in fighting is knowing which are going to hit you and which are not, and an enciroment where non of them ate going to hit you, is short of treaching you to avoid those that are, im a firm beliver in training with consequences for failure,  it speed up the learning process greatly

however the person who is throwing the pubches that get pulled is not gettibg a great deal out of the exercise, they may as well be punchibg thin air and would certainly be better hittibg a focus pad


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Ivan said:


> You get powerhouse punches thrown at your face in random moments enough times, eventually, you'll get used to it, whether you get hit or not.


I don't know anyone who is used to getting hit hard in the face with a power shot.  That's usually an indication that you messed up somewhere.  Get enough of them and you'll end up taking an unexpected nap.  Power strikes that fall on the guard is one thing, getting nailed where there was no defense is not something you should think of as getting used to.  Our heads can only take so much blunt force impact and that's not something you can manually control the response to.



Ivan said:


> It's not the punch that causes you to twitch, it's the fast movement and your lack of vision.


If you get punched really hard, I can guarantee you that it's the power of the punch that will make you nervous and not the speed of it.  I've sparred against people who had really fast punches (faster than mine) and the speed didn't bother me because the power wasn't damaging.  I've also trained with a partner when working on a "new" technique that discovered. 

The principles and concepts were sound we killed heavy bags with now problem  Then the real test came for sparring.  He landed the technique and dropped a guy with the body shot.  My sparring partner saw what happened and put on protective body gear.  He tried to stay away, so my punches weren't that good.  I had to reach with the technique which took away lots of my power.   After the sparring match he comes up to me and says had he not had the body gear on, I would have probably broken his ribs because he could still fill the punch coming though.

When I spar with teachers and instructors who are better than me,  it's the power that I worry about and not the speed.  Maybe it's just me.




Ivan said:


> The punches that hurt most, and scare you the most, are those you don't see coming.


Which is why I don't think there's a way one can actually get used to it.


Maybe you see see something I don't


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> however the person who is throwing the pubches that get pulled is not gettibg a great deal out of the exercise, they may as well be punchibg thin air and would certainly be better hittibg a focus pad


I only want my training partner to pull punches if I just flat out don't see it coming.


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I only want my training partner to pull punches if I just flat out don't see it coming.


well yea, im not sayibg it has no part in training, in learning to pick up fast movement, it has a problem with what should you do about it, you know its not going to hit, why would you do any4hing much ?  at some point,  sooner rather than later, you want on target punches to avoid, or  ,,,  ,,,,


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Your original statement invalidates your additional details.
> 
> It makes no difference if someone can punch better mechanically or not if the only issue in play is how much of an effect and if that is sufficient to change the outcome of a confrontation with an opponent of very vague abilities and atributes.
> 
> ...


you first state my addition info has no effect on the validity of my original statement and then that it contradicts it, both of those cant be true and as it nether of them are .

a heavily potatoe based diet could indeed change the conduct of a fight and possibly the conclusion, for good or bad from your stand point

diet is one of the many inputs that could have an effect,  so i wouldnt dismiss it as irrelevant  at the point


----------



## drop bear (Dec 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> you first state my addition info has no effect on the validity of my original statement and then that it contradicts it, both of those cant be true and as it nether of them are .
> 
> a heavily potatoe based diet could indeed change the conduct of a fight and possibly the conclusion, for good or bad from your stand point
> 
> diet is one of the many inputs that could have an effect,  so i wouldnt dismiss it as irrelevant  at the point



You can't have both.

Either martial arts, or anything really, has an effect on self defence. Or it doesn't. You can't have both when you feel like it.

If martial arts has an effect on punching ability. But punching ability does not have an effect on self defence then martial arts has no effect.

Diet cannot have an effect on self defence because we cannot determine what self defence is.

So if I am a trained fighter. He might be better trained. If I have a gun. He might have two guns. Or if i can't fight and he can't fight either and is smaller.

With the entirety of violence to draw from nothing effects the outcome of self defence.

We are talking pure chance.

Or martial arts does have an effect. Say it increases punching power which raises your odds of winning a self defense situation and the idea that self defence is so vague as to be undetermined is false.


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You can't have both.
> 
> Either martial arts, or anything really, has an effect on self defence. Or it doesn't. You can't have both when you feel like it.
> 
> ...


it has an effect on self defence, it doesnt nrssecerly change the ultimate outcome,  but how and when that outcome comp0es to pass it may very well do.

but as we have no idea, at this stage who is attacking who with what, anything more specific than that is speculation of the highest order

and its isnt random change, that would require that all possible outcomes are equally likely and that is not so


----------



## drop bear (Dec 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> it has an effect on self defence, it doesnt nrssecerly change the ultimate outcome,  but how and when that outcome comp0es to pass it may very well do.
> 
> but as we have no idea, at this stage who is attacking who with what, anything more specific than that is speculation of the highest order
> 
> and its isnt random change, that would require that all possible outcomes are equally likely and that is not so



And so it has no effect.


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And so it has no effect.


it has an effect, it very well may effect the outcome, if you end up getting stabbed 5 seconds later that has effected the outcome

if your stabbed an inch high that effected the out come, 

to many variables, to say any more than it can have an effect


----------



## drop bear (Dec 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> it has an effect, it very well may effect the outcome, if you end up getting stabbed 5 seconds later that has effected the outcome



How does it effect an undeterminable outcome?


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

drop bear said:


> How does it effect an undeterminable outcome?


indeterminatly


----------



## Ivan (Dec 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Kids these days lol.   There always some young buck, thinking that people in TMA don't hit hard enough lol.


I never said that. I said that TMA usually only train with repetition, no sparring, and a vehement lack of resistance in their repetition. I experienced this myself in two different martial arts (as I stated in the article) and that resistance was only applied after reaching a black belt. This means that your training means nothing until you reach your black belt and learn to actually apply the techniques you learnt, and black belts are a minimum of two years. That makes TMA very ineffective compared to more modern arts, though their techniques are just as, if not more, valuable.

For my father, traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is the pinnacle of martial arts, so imagine his disappointment when he learnt that he wouldn't learn how to apply the techniques until he spent at least two years at the classes we attended. 

In contrast, Krav Maga uses combative drills and a philosophy that emphasises application and aggression over technique - which is why it's effective enough to be used by special forces. It prepares you for a lot of situations in a very short amount of time, whereas repetition-only TMAs expect you to stick to them for such a large amount of time, that by the time you've learnt to apply them, you've been mugged twice, stabbed three times, and had your lunch money taken by your bully and his whole family tree.


----------



## jobo (Dec 26, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I never said that. I said that TMA usually only train with repetition, no sparring, and a vehement lack of resistance in their repetition. I experienced this myself in two different martial arts (as I stated in the article) and that resistance was only applied after reaching a black belt. This means that your training means nothing until you reach your black belt and learn to actually apply the techniques you learnt, and black belts are a minimum of two years. That makes TMA very ineffective compared to more modern arts, though their techniques are just as, if not more, valuable.
> 
> For my father, traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is the pinnacle of martial arts, so imagine his disappointment when he learnt that he wouldn't learn how to apply the techniques until he spent at least two years at the classes we attended.
> 
> In contrast, Krav Maga uses combative drills and a philosophy that emphasises application and aggression over technique - which is why it's effective enough to be used by special forces. It prepares you for a lot of situations in a very short amount of time, whereas repetition-only TMAs expect you to stick to them for such a large amount of time, that by the time you've learnt to apply them, you've been mugged twice, stabbed three times, and had your lunch money taken by your bully and his whole family tree.


thats not all tma, it probebly not most tmas, but as neither  you nor i have vistited most tmas, its hard to say


----------



## Ivan (Dec 26, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats not all tma, it probebly not most tmas, but as neither  you nor i have vistited most tmas, its hard to say


You're right. Some styles of Kung Fu have sparring, such JowGaWolf's Jow Ga. But it is a recurring theme across many TMAs. Aikido, JJJ, Shorinji Kempo, to name a few, only have randori and repetition.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Ivan said:


> For my father, traditional Japanese Jiu-Jitsu is the pinnacle of martial arts, so imagine his disappointment when he learnt that he wouldn't learn how to apply the techniques until he spent at least two years at the classes we attended.


 Sorry he had to experience that.  I personally wouldn't train at a school like that.  The questions I asked  when I get into Martial Arts as an Adult were.
1. Can I really use this stuff -  They told me that what they train was practical
2. Do you spar -  They not only told me that they did, but they also went into details about how they spart.

I was sold.  Granted not everyone wants to learn how to fight using a fighting system,  but for those  who do, it's really important that applications are learned on day one with the basics.  How to punch someone or kick someone really hard and what's required to do so.



Ivan said:


> It prepares you for a lot of situations in a very short amount of time, whereas repetition-only TMAs expect you to stick to them for such a large amount of time,


 You have some schools who want you to stay with them a long time because they see you as income.  So they draw things out longer than what's needed.  Learning how to fight takes  No one get there in 3 years.   I look at fight development like everything else.  It takes times and it's not a fast road.  It's no different than learning to play an instrument.  So if you were to take classes playing the trumpet, how long would it take you to be good?  My guess is more than 3 years.  Fighting's like that too.  But the most important thing is that people get practice time, applying what they learn.  Without practicing by doing, there's just no hope.  

I don't blame the schools as much as I do the paying customers.   If you are going to run a martial arts school as a business, then you learn quickly that your biggest customer are the ones who really don't want to learn how to fight.  Many just want a belt or some trophies.  You'll make money by providing services to those, but focus too much on fighting and you'll barely break even.

I think the best thing that happened for TMA was to have an MMA guy embarass TMA practitioners in such a public way that a lot of school are now changing how they are teaching.  If I had to guess.  I would say there were more TMA schools that focused on application of techniques in 2019 then there were in 1995, which is right around when I got into Jow Ga Kung Fu..    Back then Muay Thai wasn't popular,  MMA gyms were no where to be found, and the only thing that people cared about was the color of a belt.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 26, 2020)

Tips to finding a good school to learn to apply what you learn.
1. Ask if they have sparring
2. Ask then to either describe what the sparring classes are like or show a video or both.
3. Ask if you can visit on a sparring day
4. If the instructors start yelling when no one is using techniques, then that's probably a good school  to train in for application
5. If the instructor just let people spar without using the applications, then  I would avoid that school.

Not the best sparring, but you can hear the Sifu remind students to try and use applications from the form.





Adult sparring class. The one thing you don't hear is the instructor reminding the students about using techniques.





You can't learn how to apply a technique if you don't practice trying to use it.  If you don't spar often, then you won't get much practice time in.  My approach to training techniques is to take 2 or 3 basic techniques that you know and one that you don't know. The 3 that you do know should be used to help you set up the 1 that you don't know.  Once you learn how to apply 1 technique then add 1 more.  Now you'll use 4 techniques to set up the new technique that you don't know how to apply.

If the school only spars once a month then I would start looking for another place.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Krav Maga uses combative drills and a philosophy that emphasises application and aggression over technique


That explains why you have to hit someone 5 or 10 times in the same spot in order to finish them, instead of just once (too much aggression, not enough technique).


----------



## jobo (Dec 27, 2020)

Ivan said:


> You're right. Some styles of Kung Fu have sparring, such JowGaWolf's Jow Ga. But it is a recurring theme across many TMAs. Aikido, JJJ, Shorinji Kempo, to name a few, only have randori and repetition.


yes but in your text,  your damming all tma on a sample size of two,

there are certainly arts that seem to have,down graded the aquisision of fighting skills some what and tmas in general are not in a great rush to do anything much, unless irs a belt factory, then they are quite keen to part you from your money in short order.

your point is possibly valid, if fighting/ sd has a high time priority, you need to pick your arts , to some thing that has fewer techniques  and very quickly accelerates to full force full restance, thats not really km, which in my exsperiances also suffers from compliant partner syndrome and depriving you of your funds

really  you want a compiticion art, where they teach you from step one to compete, boxing and judo spribg immediatly to mind as mimimum frills for maximum effect, though there are im sure others that fit the bill


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 28, 2020)

Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;






And claims to be the most effective MA on the planet.

I've rolled with a few KM guys who've migrated over to Bjj and MMA, and frankly if they want to put themselves over TMA guys, they need to check themselves. I've dealt with traditional Karate and Kung Fu practitioners who have better fighting skills.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 28, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol  you know how to find the worst of things lol


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 28, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol  you know how to find the worst of things lol


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 29, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.



Jokes aside, upon reading your article, some rather obvious red flags stuck out to me. First and foremost, the idea that you don't do sparring and claim that this prepares you for self defense is laughable, and so is the reasoning behind it. Think about this from a logical standpoint; If you've NEVER actually done something, how do you know you can do it?

For example, groin kicks. You do know that some people aren't phased by kicks to the groin right? So what if your entire attack strategy revolves around kicking someone in the nuts (like that hilarious video I posted above) and it doesn't work?

In BJJ we practice choking, and we choke someone until they submit. If they don't submit, they pass out. However, there are some people who you simply aren't able to choke in certain positions, which is why it's invaluable for us to roll full blast to see what works and what doesn't work. If my entire strategy revolved around the triangle choke for example, and I never trained to deal with someone who simply can't be choked out with that choke, I'm royally screwed. However, since I have dealt with people like that, I know that I can immediately move out of the choke and go for arm bars, sweeps, or shoulder locks instead.

This is also why we've removed the "deadly" techniques from practice; so that we can practice the "safe" techniques over and over again against fully resistant partners until we master them. Learning the technique isn't enough, you have to know how to APPLY the technique as well. 

Back to the triangle choke for example #2; I learned the triangle choke fairly early in my training. I knew it was effective, and I knew how to do it, however I simply could never get it to work for ME. It took years to develop an effective triangle choke, and frankly I would have never known I needed to work on it if it wasn't for sparring/rolling. Yeah, I would slap the legs together right, yeah I would grab the back of their head and push down, but I simply wasn't choking them. So I decided to spend 6 months just training the triangle until I got it right. Every roll I started from guard just so that I could practice that one technique because I knew it was important for self defense. Eventually I got it, and I had one of the best triangle chokes in my gym.

About a year later I got into a self defense situation where the triangle choke saved my life. If I had never sparred and just thought I "knew" the technique, I'd probably be pushing up daises right now.

I also can't stress just how terrible the concept of feint striking is. I'm not sure I read this correctly, but are you saying that you guys are purposely pulling punches? Are you actually getting hit at this school? I can unequivocally tell you right now that if you're training for self defense, you need to know how to take a full on strike, and you need to know HOW to strike. And the only way you learn that is by hitting a moving target trying to knock your block off. 

Finally, the combat sports comment is just silly. Yeah we fight with "rules", but that doesn't mean that what we're doing still won't kill or maim you. If I hold my choke for a few minutes after you've passed out, you're dead. If I get some clown in a kimura and keep moving my body in the same direction, their shoulder is going to pop. If get them in a heel hook, they're not walking for a long time. This nonsense about "rules" is just silly talk, because people in combat sports know how to actually do the deed. They do it constantly, over and over again, against trained, resisting partners.

Boxers probably have more rules than any other combat sport/MA out there. I'd tell someone to train there before I'd recommend any Krav Maga school.

In the end, I'm happy you've found a martial art you enjoy. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you've drunk a little too much of their Kool-Aid. Cross-train in some other styles and see if your viewpoint changes. If not, good luck.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I wrote an article on Krav Maga and how its training methods are superior to those of traditional martial arts, and how the majority of martial art curriculums could benefit from them. I was wondering what your thoughts are about. Here is the link.


I have my doubts about this part:



_
The attacker chooses any moment to attack which they see fit

Once the defender understands the basic principles of the technique, the attacker can begin to attack at full speed and force

The defender must use maximum aggression in his technique
_
_Note: Strikes don't actually make contact with the attacker - they are just feigned._

Points 2 and 3 don't really fit with the idea of no contact. If I'm attacking someone with full speed, I'm not going to be able to turn that off at the last second. For instance, I go to punch someone, with all my speed/force, not focusing on control, and at the last second they fake strike my neck. A: Intellectually I don't know how much damage their neck strike is actually going to do to simulate it, unless that particular person has struck my neck before. B: Even if I know that it would stop me in my tracks, without it I'm already too far gone and won't be able to suddenly stop my previously uninhibited punch, so you're still getting whacked in the face. Also, you'll get whacked full force every time you miss/don't respond in time. 

I also don't know how I can use maximum aggression while avoiding contact. 

I've got no issue with simulated drills, where you have one 'attacker', but it should be with the intent that the other person has to actually, physically stop the attack, and if they don't they're getting pounded on. 

This also causes the issue you mention 2 paragraphs later, stating that KM eliminates it..if you don't make contact, you don't actually know that your strike is capable of stopping the attacker.

You've also got a different definition of randori then what I've seen in judo schools (no experience with Aikido). In judo, randori is just grappling-specific sparring, sometimes with a starting grip, sometimes not. Not prearranged/unrealistic attacks.

_Many of you will have caught on by now, that this *vastly contrasts* with the approach by most martial arts. I know that in all the styles that I have trained that are based on the same type of self-defence grapples, would simply have me go back to the beginning and repeat the motion consistently._

The above statement isn't true in my experience. Just about everywhere I've trained that does self-defense for grappling situations, had the idea-if it didn't work, you're still stuck, try something else. The only time you go back and try it again is if you're drilling reps and/or trying to figure out what you're doing wrong (which is needed if you ever want to do the technique correctly). I can't say which idea is more prevalent, but your experience is very different from mine apparently.

I do agree that the aggressive mentality is key. It just doesn't seem like that Krav school (based on what you wrote) is actually providing that mentality properly.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 29, 2020)

the only useful Krav Maga is the military system. The civilian stuff is just watered down crap


----------



## Kemposhot (Dec 29, 2020)

I would say many of these points have benefited the respective systems.  TMA is now more aware of ground fighting, “reality” self defense scenarios thanks to these modalities becoming more mainstream in the last 20 years.  

I know in my own personal experience in my TMA training, there’s now cross training in these things introduced with the intention to prepare you if you encounter someone who has experience in one of these fighting styles.  While I know I’ll never be as effective as someone who specializes in this, the working understanding is important to add to your own skill set.  

Your article sights repetition in TMA as a negative and mentions the drilling until it becomes muscle memory as something that makes it inferior to KM.  I disagree with this.  Having techniques and drilling them to the point of muscle memory physically conditions you to respond with more effective reactions. 

 Boxing with its small amount of techniques and punches are drilled constantly and makes it extremely effective in street fighting.  Many law enforcement agencies teach boxing to their recruits during academy training because of this.   

 I don’t have any experience in what the KM military style is like, but the civilian stuff I’ve seen is good and does take a different approach from TMA.  If i didn’t have time to train and learn I do see the practicality in something like that.  However, a TMA who drills, and spars regularly will have a very good idea about what works and how to apply it.  Even if sparring isn’t a 100% reflection on a reality based scenario.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol  you know how to find the worst of things lol



Honestly that video is a reflection of the issues with getting your feedback from these drills and scenarios that op mentions.

If they are done badly.

Basically factored in you have this idea that say, I punch you in the nuts you have to let me progress. So what happens is you get attacked. Do rubbish, rubbish, rubbish, nut punch, you take the next position rubbish, rubbish and so on.

It literally never prepares you for a contest for dominance. Because you always have an escape clause.

Eg.




Have I mentioned how much I dislike industry training?

So this guy has one job. Teach a basic sprawl. But because there is no proper feedback. This one basic task gets turned in to something pointless.

And it is weird. So many people do this.

I was just having a look at that series and it is consistently dreadful. And he should have half a clue. He has a decent resume.

Richard Nance


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Kemposhot said:


> I would say many of these points have benefited the respective systems.  TMA is now more aware of ground fighting, “reality” self defense scenarios thanks to these modalities becoming more mainstream in the last 20 years.
> 
> I know in my own personal experience in my TMA training, there’s now cross training in these things introduced with the intention to prepare you if you encounter someone who has experience in one of these fighting styles.  While I know I’ll never be as effective as someone who specializes in this, the working understanding is important to add to your own skill set.
> 
> ...


end of the day it´s more about finding a good teacher. I went to one group here & honestly the so called Teacher was a specky little drip who clearly never had a real fist fight in his life. Not slagging off any systems but you have to be realistic.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> That explains why you have to hit someone 5 or 10 times in the same spot in order to finish them, instead of just once (too much aggression, not enough technique).


Kicking someone in the groin once is enough. Re stomping the groin makes sure they don't come at you again


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I have my doubts about this part:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feel as if I haven't quite got my point across properly. Moreover, I personally think I am able to throw strikes with full speed and little power and I have tried to do so before.

Some of the strikes which the defendes uses in applying the technique cannot be used in training i.e. we weren't able to kick the groin, so we would either kick the inside of the thigh or stop before striking. Regardless, once we were comfortable enough to do so, we would do the same stuff with speed.

Lastly, perhaps it is a difference in experiences, but up until now with my classes in traditional styles - it was their way or the highway.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Ah yes, Krav Maga, the system that puts out BS like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Have I mentioned how much I dislike industry training?
> 
> So this guy has one job. Teach a basic sprawl. But because there is no proper feedback. This one basic task gets turned in to something pointless.
> 
> Richard Nance



Right there with you... The idea that you can "certify" someone as ready to defend themselves within a few days, be it through part of a larger training (e.g. Air Force Security Forces tech school) or just a stand alone program, seems absurd to me. Hand-to-hand combat, like anything else, is a perishable skill, especially if your initial training only consisted of a few hours, total.

As for the article, I have a few thoughts. For reference, I trained in Krav Maga for three months while on a TDY in San Angelo, TX, and I have a lot of experience in traditional martial arts.

First, I think your premise that repetitions of a technique are not helpful is straight-out wrong. While it makes a lot of sense to train without resistance at first, such that you can learn how the technique is supposed to go, any instructor who isn't delusional will encourage students to experiment with different degrees of active and passive resistance as they become more comfortable with how the technique is supposed to look. I know that, even in my Aikido school, I have a few select partners who I can count on to make it very difficult for me to move them, which only serves to enhance my ability to do so. But, all that aside, muscle memory, though a misnomer, does exist, and it is extremely valuable, particularly in a life or death situation. The only way you truly get to muscle memory is by repeated drilling.

Second, I believe sparring is a valuable exercise. Can you do knife hands to the throat, or eye pokes, or groin kicks, in sparring? No. Are you going to find yourself squared up in real life? Well, if you have, you probably missed a good opportunity to abscond and avoid the fight entirely. But, even with these limitations, sparring is kind of like cops and military training with simunitions... It's not the real thing, but it's as close as we can get without killing each other, and that makes it valuable. Also, you want to talk about pulling off techniques on a partner who offers resistance? Look no further than sparring.

Overall, I'm with Kemposhot and others, who say it's less about the art itself, and more about the practitioner and how he/she trains. I've known Aikidoka who were formidable in a fight, and I've known Krav Maga students who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. The art is only as good as the degree to which it serves the artists needs, and the degree to which they train effectively.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.


yes and you know that learning a lot of techniques is useless. better to learn fewer but better.  how many techniques does a boxer need?


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> Right there with you... The idea that you can "certify" someone as ready to defend themselves within a few days, be it through part of a larger training (e.g. Air Force Security Forces tech school) or just a stand alone program, seems absurd to me. Hand-to-hand combat, like anything else, is a perishable skill, especially if your initial training only consisted of a few hours, total.
> 
> As for the article, I have a few thoughts. For reference, I trained in Krav Maga for three months while on a TDY in San Angelo, TX, and I have a lot of experience in traditional martial arts.
> 
> ...


what gets me is the so called experts who teach knife defence. a knife is so quick & a change of angle is too quick. Better if you have a weapon like in escrima. where i live you get a lot of idiots running around at night when i go running so i carry a compact telescopic baton. no f-cking around because if you will have a chance you need a tool..simple as that.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

I remember in the British Army they tought us some unarmed combat & they said it was Aikido but it was a lot shorter & not so wishy washy as Aikido. Also with a stick or baton. sure it was OK the stick work as we had to control aggresive people in riots(won´t go into this). The main emphisis was on simple boxing. fitness & boxing. why ? because it works...bang, bang in a bar fight down he goes. no fancy sh-t


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Another thing I stated in my article is that KM doesn't have a strict curriculum. This means that every KM practitioner will know different methods for escaping the same situation. Undoubtedly, this does give rise to fake and dangerous techniques.



Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.

The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.
> 
> The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.


I think another important point is you need to have some Balls about you. You can train all these fancy techniques for years but in a real fight all Dojo stuff goes out the window. The most savage and aggresive will win. some people are just natural fighters and fast. are martial arts useless? no of course not but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning. you need to stand your ground & sometimes take hits & carry on.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> I think another important point is you need to have some Balls about you. You can train all these fancy techniques for years but in a real fight all Dojo stuff goes out the window. The most savage and aggresive will win. some people are just natural fighters and fast. are martial arts useless? no of course not but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning. you need to stand your ground & sometimes take hits & carry on.



Agreed. I mean look at this video;






You can just tell who has the "balls" and who's going to get their *** kicked. Make it so bad, the MMA guy said he decided to take up the challenge himself because his students are younger and crazier than he is and would have really hurt this dork.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.


"The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Honestly that video is a reflection of the issues with getting your feedback from these drills and scenarios that op mentions.
> 
> If they are done badly.
> 
> ...


yeah you are right. 

He also breaks my #1 rule for defending against a take down.   When someone tries to me down.  I must first address the grappling attempt and then I can strike.   Punching one's way out of a grappling attempt just isn't what I would recommend.  Address the Grappling then follow up with striking, but only when the risk from the grappling has been lowered.

This isn't a reality for me.  He also breaks my #1 rule for defending against a take down.   When someone tries to me down.  I must first address the grappling attempt and then I can strike.  They always forget to factor in that forward momentum that comes with a take down like that.


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Jokes aside, upon reading your article, some rather obvious red flags stuck out to me. First and foremost, the idea that you don't do sparring and claim that this prepares you for self defense is laughable, and so is the reasoning behind it. Think about this from a logical standpoint; If you've NEVER actually done something, how do you know you can do it?
> 
> For example, groin kicks. You do know that some people aren't phased by kicks to the groin right? So what if your entire attack strategy revolves around kicking someone in the nuts (like that hilarious video I posted above) and it doesn't work?
> 
> ...


The combat sports comment is completely rational. I never claimed the techniques they teach won't work, I claimed that fighters will be too one-dimensional to use their full potential in an environment where there are no rules. That isn't to say that they can't handle themselves, just that the techniques styles have removed such as the backhand in boxing, would give them a better edge.

As for the lack of sparring, it's not that they won't spar, it's that they can't. You can't spar with a system where 5 in 6 moves include eye gouges, groin kicks, dislocations, and elbows to the teeth. They have drills to replace this such as the 360 defense. 

I am going to completely disregard your groin kick comment...

I'd tell someone who wants to get fitter and learn some self defense to use boxing myself because it is easier to pick up. But if I was in a street fight, I'd pick KM any day.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> traditional styles - it was their way or the highway.


Most TMA schools are like this even the ones who are good at what they do. There are techniques in the school that can really damage people so for safety reasons, it's good to have everyone in that mind set.  The problem comes from when teacher apply that to Everything.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> "The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"


well there is no real defence against a gun..all the stuff you see is i suppose  is a very last resort. If you make yourself a target then you get zapped. now why does the British army still train Bayonet ? because close quarter fighting is important. The japanese trained in a system i believe called Juken jutsu & it is effective. I think for me the best systems are weapon orientated such as escrima. you learn attacks with a knife..etc & defence(mostly with another weapon no dreaming here). no other systems cover all this in my humble opinion.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> "The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"


I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance.  They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.

I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos.  Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way.  A lot of times there's a counter in between .  Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.

I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head.  That was good enough for me.  It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance.  They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.
> 
> I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos.  Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way.  A lot of times there's a counter in between .  Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.
> 
> I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head.  That was good enough for me.  It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.


True story.. i remember we was in Canada on exercises in Medicine hat (Batus) a big training area & a Royal scot (scottish infantry Regiment before they amalgimated all the regiments ) took a pistol of a cop & hit him over the head with it. He was still in jail when we took over...haha.  but yeah no need to be a hero when a gun is at your head. you survived that´s what counts .


----------



## Ivan (Dec 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've been at gun point before and it's never like what we seen in the demos.. Most people who have the gun try to stay out of grabbing distance.  They understand that they don't want you to grab the weapon and are just as happy to shoot you in the body as they are to shoot you in the head.
> 
> I've video of people fighting over a gun, but even then the set up isn't like what they show in the gun self defense videos.  Look at any armed store robbery and you'll clearly see that people just don't threat others with a gun that way.  A lot of times there's a counter in between .  Police on the other hand have a different scenario that happens often enough. Where someone is trying to take the officer's gun, but very few of those scenarios look like one that is often show cased by martial arts.
> 
> I was able to talk my out of harm when I had a gun held to my head.  That was good enough for me.  It was like walking a type rope of not appearing to be tough and not being scared as to much of either could encourage or anger.


Honestly, I always thought the most stupid thing in action movies was antagonists holding people at gunpoint from less than 1 foot away. Nevertheless, just because you might never need it doesn't mean you shouldn't train in it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> Hahaha. Perhaps it does sound like that. I don't believe traditional martial arts are inferior, I believe that their training methods are. Repetition simply doesn't work for such arts as most of the repetitions are done on partners that, in some cases without noticing, don't provide enough resistance to give the learner a fair knowledge of what to expect when applying this technique.
> 
> I brought this issue up in my traditional jiu-jitsu class and they said such training doesn't begin until I reached a black belt. But in other words, it means anyone who is training in this martial art who hasn't yet reached a black belt is in big trouble if they get into a street fight. In contrast, Krav Maga made me feel ready to apply the techniques it taught me from the very first lesson, as the techniques are applied quickly and forcefully from the get-go.


Did they really oppose your techniques with real aggression from the start?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> but you need the mentality to utilize what you´re learning


This is the most overlooked issue which is probably why I really don't like a lot of zen in my martial arts.  If the zen helps clear my head so I can commit a horrible act then I'm all for it.   If the zen is only to put me at peace then I don't like it.

Come to think of it, I didn't like this show either. lol


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the most overlooked issue which is probably why I really don't like a lot of zen in my martial arts.  If the zen helps clear my head so I can commit a horrible act then I'm all for it.   If the zen is only to put me at peace then I don't like it.
> 
> Come to think of it, I didn't this show either. lol


mate i have seen people learning Modern Ju jitsu systems thinking they can use it on the cobbles (on the street) all that will happen is they will get badly hurt or worse. mostly office types or white coller workers i think they say in the US. I honestly despair when i meet these people. The only systems that i like are escrima or a boxing system. I am not saying i am Bruce Lee but i am talking from real life experiences.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Except it isn't only the techniques that are silly, it's the entire concept of needing to learn how to escape a guard in a self defense context. In BJJ, we only learn how to escape Guard for sport purposes. Same goes for MMA where you might come up against a skilled grappler in the Octagon and need to learn how to escape.
> 
> The chances of you getting put into a Guard by a mugger or a violent assailant on the street is zero, so there's NO reason to learn how to escape Guard for self defense.



I wouldn't go that far. You should at least understand the position. But you probably don't really need a guard pass because hitting and standing up is the simplest option.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> well there is no real defence against a gun..all the stuff you see is i suppose  is a very last resort. If you make yourself a target then you get zapped. now why does the British army still train Bayonet ? because close quarter fighting is important. The japanese trained in a system i believe called Juken jutsu & it is effective. I think for me the best systems are weapon orientated such as escrima. you learn attacks with a knife..etc & defence(mostly with another weapon no dreaming here). no other systems cover all this in my humble opinion.



The British did a successful bayonet charge in Afghanistan.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> mate i have seen people learning Modern Ju jitsu systems thinking they can use it on the cobbles (on the street) all that will happen is they will get badly hurt or worse. mostly office types or white coller workers i think they say in the US. I honestly despair when i meet these people. The only systems that i like are escrima or a boxing system. I am not saying i am Bruce Lee but i am talking from real life experiences.



I am a big fan of boxing, for the same reasons you and Kemposhot cited. That being said, you mentioned being taught techniques that were derived from Aikido... One of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He had started out in Karate, but found the kicks impractical with a gun belt, and concluded that Aikido was more applicable to his job as a police officer. It clearly worked for him, as he stuck with it, and he showed me some of the more practical Aikido he learned on the beat... That was a scary class.

I will also say that BJJ literally saved my life, as well as that of the friend I was protecting from our attacker (attacker too, for that matter). I personally have NO desire to go to the ground, but the fact of the matter is, it's a good backup plan for if you get tackled, like I did.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> The combat sports comment is completely rational. I never claimed the techniques they teach won't work, I claimed that fighters will be too one-dimensional to use their full potential in an environment where there are no rules. That isn't to say that they can't handle themselves, just that the techniques styles have removed such as the backhand in boxing, would give them a better edge.
> 
> As for the lack of sparring, it's not that they won't spar, it's that they can't. You can't spar with a system where 5 in 6 moves include eye gouges, groin kicks, dislocations, and elbows to the teeth. They have drills to replace this such as the 360 defense.
> 
> ...



It works the other way. And this comes back to my comments about drills not really giving the feedback that you want them to sort of. 

So say you train the deadly eye gouge. And someone else trains a jab. But they train the jab live against a bunch of resisting opponents and you stand there and poke holes in an orange or something. 

They will have the advantage in an eye gouge off because they will have the better basic functional tools of hitting people and not getting hit. 

Which is by far better than having perfect technique. (Or at least the perception of perfect technique)

So what happens is there is a very small area where you have the specialist advantage vs a very big area where they have the general advantage. 

So yes I have caught good boxers with a back fist because they don't expect it. But if they are good boxers they have caught me with everything else.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I am a big fan of boxing, for the same reasons you and Kemposhot cited. That being said, you mentioned being taught techniques that were derived from Aikido... One of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He had started out in Karate, but found the kicks impractical with a gun belt, and concluded that Aikido was more applicable to his job as a police officer. It clearly worked for him, as he stuck with it, and he showed me some of the more practical Aikido he learned on the beat... That was a scary class.
> 
> I will also say that BJJ literally saved my life, as well as that of the friend I was protecting from our attacker (attacker too, for that matter). I personally have NO desire to go to the ground, but the fact of the matter is, it's a good backup plan for if you get tackled, like I did.



I did the security/Aikido thing. 

It was really bad. 

Basically we took a low percentage option. Trained it in an unsafe way. Then trained that technically poorly. And then taught that to other people.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It works the other way. And this comes back to my comments about drills not really giving the feedback that you want them to sort of.
> 
> So say you train the deadly eye gouge. And someone else trains a jab. But they train the jab live against a bunch of resisting opponents and you stand there and poke holes in an orange or something.
> 
> ...




And you can see this with almost every eye gouging demonstration where generally every other factor of striking that keeps you safe is done wrong.

They stand directly in front at this terrible range. Fire out the eye gouge and then do almost nothing else. ( And beating your now pretend incapacitated parter doesn't count as something)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> I feel as if I haven't quite got my point across properly. Moreover, I personally think I am able to throw strikes with full speed and little power and I have tried to do so before.


Then you're not using full aggression. Full aggression involves going all out at the person. Which you can't do without contact. 



> Some of the strikes which the defendes uses in applying the technique cannot be used in training i.e. we weren't able to kick the groin, so we would either kick the inside of the thigh or stop before striking. Regardless, once we were comfortable enough to do so, we would do the same stuff with speed.


I think you didn't express that properly, since IIRC the article stated that there would not be contact. So for instance-eyepokes but stopping short, miming a groin shot, faux-twisting the neck, etc. If that's what you guys do, then that's pretty useless, since you don't know if it would actually land. If you practice a front kick, where you hit the chest or knee (and can adjust the height to the groin if needed), a punch that lands on the chin/upper torso (close to the neck), or the forehead (close to the eyes) or with goggles/groin cup on, that can be useful. Because then you actually know it would land with contact, and getting your strike to land is a lot tougher/requires more practice than figuring out exactly where you want it to land. But if you stop short, you don't know what would have happened (and it also takes away the intensity of the situation, which prepares you less in a different sense for an actual fight).



> Lastly, perhaps it is a difference in experiences, but up until now with my classes in traditional styles - it was their way or the highway.


 Yup, probably a difference in experiences thing. Unless you come down to NY or I go to the UK we can't really know.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> That explains why you have to hit someone 5 or 10 times in the same spot in order to finish them, instead of just once (too much aggression, not enough technique).



Not really. If they are defending themselves and are not a complete dud. Multiple strikes then serve a real purpose even by elite strikers.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I am a big fan of boxing, for the same reasons you and Kemposhot cited. That being said, you mentioned being taught techniques that were derived from Aikido... One of my first Aikido instructors was retired NYPD. He had started out in Karate, but found the kicks impractical with a gun belt, and concluded that Aikido was more applicable to his job as a police officer. It clearly worked for him, as he stuck with it, and he showed me some of the more practical Aikido he learned on the beat... That was a scary class.
> 
> I will also say that BJJ literally saved my life, as well as that of the friend I was protecting from our attacker (attacker too, for that matter). I personally have NO desire to go to the ground, but the fact of the matter is, it's a good backup plan for if you get tackled, like I did.


I have also learned some Aikido, Tendo ryu & Takemusu Aikido. one has short sabaki the other more dynamic round. I know the score & also judo. I served 9 years in the Army & worked in armed security for the Brit army for 7 years. I am not a moron . Trust me if you try these locks such as Nikyo  on the street you will lose. Now what most Aikido classes do not really teach is Atemi waza (striking). I honestly have more respect for Judo than aikido as it´s more "Hands on" randori.  The worst Aikido is the Aiki Kai it´s just a "Do" a way a philosophy not real. Maybe you need to look at Daitio Ryu which is shorter & harder. still no use for modern day combat. stop dreaming about O sensei & his amazing techniques of "Aiki". Worst student of him was Tohei Sensei !!!


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Daito Ryu


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> I have also learned some Aikido, Tendo ryu & Takemusu Aikido. one has short sabaki the other more dynamic round. I know the score & also judo. I served 9 years in the Army & worked in armed security for the Brit army for 7 years. I am not a moron . Trust me if you try these locks such as Nikyo  on the street you will lose. Now what most Aikido classes do not really teach is Atemi waza (striking). I honestly have more respect for Judo than aikido as it´s more "Hands on" randori.  The worst Aikido is the Aiki Kai it´s just a "Do" a way a philosophy not real. Maybe you need to look at Daitio Ryu which is shorter & harder. still no use for modern day combat. stop dreaming about O sensei & his amazing techniques of "Aiki". Worst student of him was Tohei Sensei !!!



You can get wrist locks and arm locks kind of safely against duds from good clinch work. Because if you bend a guy over from say a really good underhook. The arm pops out straight and you can attack it. 

But Aikido generally doesn't teach that.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You can get wrist locks and arm locks kind of safely against duds from good clinch work. Because if you bend a guy over from say a really good underhook. The arm pops out straight and you can attack it.
> 
> But Aikido generally doesn't teach that.


Judo arm locks are better. Sraight arm bar against the elbow or shoulder. Wrist locks & throws are very hard to do in a fast fight. there was a guy who did finger locks wally jay i think.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> Judo arm locks are better. Sraight arm bar against the elbow or shoulder. Wrist locks & throws are very hard to do in a fast fight. there was a guy who did finger locks wally jay i think.



Yeah. But you want to do locks in a way that doesn't result in you getting punched in the face.


Which standing in front of someone directly in ams reach results in.

In training recently a friend of mine stopped his roll walked over to the coach and showed him his little finger that was at 90 degrees. Coach put it back in and he kept going.

And was just training. Not a serious fight.

You cannot be standing where he is standing in a fight that has striking. One second slip and you are eating shots.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But you want to do locks in a way that doesn't result in you getting punched in the face.
> 
> 
> Which standing in front of someone directly in ams reach results in.
> ...


i agree with you but was wanting to show some variations on here..(wally Jay, Daito ryu) hence why i said elbow or shoulder locks are better in a fight.  Also i mentioned the atemi waza. are you paying attention?


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> Judo arm locks are better. Sraight arm bar against the elbow or shoulder. Wrist locks & throws are very hard to do in a fast fight. there was a guy who did finger locks wally jay i think.








Alternatively look at how this guy gets the arm out straight. Away from the body and basically begging to get wrist locked or am locked. And he is not even attacking it. He is going for other things. 

Which becomes more important because if the arm lock fails it gives you an option to take their back or take them down in a dominant position. 

And it enters through a clinch which is not the worst way to deal with punches. 

It even has a blocking system to stop the guy turning in. Which sucks the power out of any striking.

It is still low percentage. But so much better than your average alternative.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> i agree with you but was wanting to show some variations on here..(wally Jay, Daito ryu) hence why i said elbow or shoulder locks are better in a fight.  Also i mentioned the atemi waza. are you paying attention?



We are pointing at different things. If you get a good entry break the other persons posture and isolate the arm. You can go for all sorts of things. And you can be sort of safe doing it. 

After that you can choose to wrist lock of arm lock or whatever. 

If you are front on hoping to somehow catch that arm. You risk being flogged.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Which sucks the power out of any striking.


how much power do you need to poke an eye? I remember an Argyll Sgt asking me what i would do in a fight & i said head butt him which was my thing as a young guy & he said no spit in his eyes.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> We are pointing at different things. If you get a good entry break the other persons posture and isolate the arm. You can go for all sorts of things. And you can be sort of safe doing it.
> 
> After that you can choose to wrist lock of arm lock or whatever.
> 
> If you are front on hoping to somehow catch that arm. You risk being flogged.


everyone has his or her opinion & it´s good so. I do not disrespect any opinion.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> how much power do you need to poke an eye? I remember an Argyll Sgt asking me what i would do in a fight & i said head butt him which was my thing as a young guy & he said no spit in his eyes.


Not the guy that you're asking, but you need enough power that your poke connects. So if you're lacking in power you're more likely to have your hand get blocked, even slightly, and miss the eye with the poke. If you're lacking in speed (related to power), you're more likely to miss as a result of them dodging. if you're lacking in reach (another aspect of power), you're likely to fall short/having them dip their head out of reach. 

The power of the strike itself doesn't matter too much when the eye's involved, it's the power to get the strike.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not the guy that you're asking, but you need enough power that your poke connects. So if you're lacking in power you're more likely to have your hand get blocked, even slightly, and miss the eye with the poke. If you're lacking in speed (related to power), you're more likely to miss as a result of them dodging. if you're lacking in reach (another aspect of power), you're likely to fall short/having them dip their head out of reach.
> 
> The power of the strike itself doesn't matter too much when the eye's involved, it's the power to get the strike.


yes ..yes a lot of if this & if that .. as to your comment about lacking in reach(related to power in your post)..i guess you never boxed in a ring . Think about the Upper cut.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> yes ..yes a lot of if this & if that .. as to your comment about lacking in reach..i guess you never boxed in a ring . Think about the Upper cut.


It's if this and that for a reason. I'm stating why power is important. If you're lacking power, then X happens. if you're lacking Y part of power, then y happens. If you have power, then you're more likely to land.

And how exactly are you doing an eye poke through an uppercut? Normally that comes from a jab most places I've seen it taught, where reach absolutely is important.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's if this and that for a reason. I'm stating why power is important. If you're lacking power, then X happens. if you're lacking Y part of power, then y happens. If you have power, then you're more likely to land.
> 
> And how exactly are you doing an eye poke through an uppercut? Normally that comes from a jab most places I've seen it taught, where reach absolutely is important.


a lot of waffle about nothing. do you know what a boxing upper cut is? nothing to do with poking an eye. I was taking about short range fighting & power. you said in your comment range is power & i am telling you that a short upper cut can KO you. I have done it in the ring.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> a lot of waffle about nothing. do you know what a boxing upper cut is? nothing to do with poking an eye. I was taking about short range fighting & power. you said in your comment range is power & i am telling you that a short upper cut can KO you. I have done it in the ring.


I'm talking specifically about the power involved in a jab. And that range is an aspect of power, not that it is power. But range was probably the wrong word, but what I'm talking about is true for an uppercut too. It's the follow-through; when you throw a jab, you don't aim for it to stop directly at the head. When you throw an uppercut to the chin, you don't aim for it to stop directly at the chin, you push through. In the case of a jab/eye poke this follow through also means that if someone sways back, you've still got a chance to hit them, while you wouldn't if you didn't throw far enough to sway back.

And I really don't care what you say you have/haven't done in the ring. I don't know your record, or the quality of your opponents, but repeating that line isn't really going to impact my comments at all.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm talking specifically about the power involved in a jab. And that range is an aspect of power, not that it is power. But range was probably the wrong word, but what I'm talking about is true for an uppercut too. It's the follow-through; when you throw a jab, you don't aim for it to stop directly at the head. When you throw an uppercut to the chin, you don't aim for it to stop directly at the chin, you push through. In the case of a jab/eye poke this follow through also means that if someone sways back, you've still got a chance to hit them, while you wouldn't if you didn't throw far enough to sway back.
> 
> And I really don't care what you say you have/haven't done in the ring. I don't know your record, or the quality of your opponents, but repeating that line isn't really going to impact my comments at all.


sorry but it is important to point out you have never been in a ring as you clearly do not understand what i am saying. it went way over your head or you are just talking nonsence here. You are seriously a Mod on here?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> sorry but it is important to point out you have never been in a ring as you clearly do not understand what i am saying. it went way over your head or you are just talking nonsence here. You are seriously a Mod on here?


You're right that I haven't been in a ring. I've been in probably about 10 fights, some with martial artists (and 1 with a boxer), and most of my training has been with professional or amateur fighters, but never fought in a ring myself. I may have missed what you were saying so let me try to clarify what I understood.


You stated/suggested power isn't important for eye pokes.
Your reasoning for that is that you don't need a lot of power to do damage with an eye poke.

I stated that the power is needed not to do damage but to land it.
My reasoning is that power helps you get past blocks, is related to speed, and the follow-through (initially said reach but clarified that since reach isn't related to power for every type of punch.
You stated that the above is not true, as uppercuts don't need reach.
I clarified that I was talking about follow through, and how that's important in every strike as part of power, and also helps prevent people from dodging.
You stated I'm talking nonsense/don't understand what you're saying. And I think you're right since this conversation/your argument doesn't really make sense/is nonexistent. 
So if you'd like to clarify where the confusion is coming from, go for it.

And to answer your last question, yes I'm a mod on here. That's also not relevant to any of this though.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Ivan said:


> "The chances of being robbed with a gun in the UK are zero, so there's no reason to learn how to defend yourself at gunpoint"



Yeah, that's not even in the same realm of comparison here. There ARE gun crimes occurring in the UK.

The chances that you're leaving a bar and some guy runs up and jumps Guard on you is zero. The chances of some mugger walking up to you demanding your wallet, and then grabbing you and pulling into Guard is also zero.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You stated I'm talking nonsense/


you just do not know however even a Mod can learn. I do not need long winded explanations i know what works nor do i need to analyse every small detail. you are a "Technician" i am a practitioner. get it?


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I wouldn't go that far. You should at least understand the position. But you probably don't really need a guard pass because hitting and standing up is the simplest option.



I would understand the position in terms of learning to use it for self defense. The Guard is an excellent self defense tool after all.

However, if your goal is self defense and you're not looking to get into combat sports, there's really no need to learn how get out of strong BJJ/MMA Guards. As you say, you could probably spend a weekend goofing off with your classmates getting out of their Guard, but I wouldn't have a class about it. I certainly wouldn't make a video about it to promote my non-sports combat school.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> you just do not know however even a Mod can learn. I do not need long winded explanations i know what works nor do i need to analyse every small detail. you are a "Technician" i am a practitioner. get it?


Nope. Not everyone likes long winded explanations. The short version drop bear gave you and you didn't get: _Power is important. A wimpy eye poke won't land. _The long version is too long for you.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would understand the position in terms of learning to use it for self defense. The Guard is an excellent self defense tool after all.
> 
> However, if your goal is self defense and you're not looking to get into combat sports, there's really no need to learn how get out of strong BJJ/MMA Guards. As you say, you could probably spend a weekend goofing off with your classmates getting out of their Guard, but I wouldn't have a class about it. I certainly wouldn't make a video about it to promote my non-sports combat school.


There's a reason for it, which is to help others learn how to use the guard. 
If I'm learning how to keep someone in my guard, I'd rather learn it on someone who actually knows how to get out of a guard. So that if I try it in real life, and the guy knows what to do, I'm not screwed. The only way for me to practice that is if my partner knows how to escape a guard.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Nope. Not everyone likes long winded explanations. The short version drop bear gave you and you didn't get: _Power is important. A wimpy eye poke won't land. _The long version is too long for you.


OK whatever mate. can´t be arsed to discuss it with you if you are so pig headed.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There's a reason for it, which is to help others learn how to use the guard.
> If I'm learning how to keep someone in my guard, I'd rather learn it on someone who actually knows how to get out of a guard. So that if I try it in real life, and the guy knows what to do, I'm not screwed. The only way for me to practice that is if my partner knows how to escape a guard.



Yeah, but here's the thing; There's a systematic approach to properly escaping the Guard that someone untrained attacking you isn't going to utilize. So even if that is the goal, using an untrained person's reaction to your Guard is the best approach. If you teach someone how to properly escape the Guard, they're going to use those proper escaping tactics which is good for them, but actually bad for the person doing the Guard (for self defense). Which is why in my old gym (which was self defense oriented Bjj) we would take time out, put gloves and mouthpieces on, and spend a class dealing with an untrained person trying to get out of our guards.

As Drop Bear said, if you're in a SD situation and somehow you have an assailant on their back with you on top and they wrap their legs around you, you can just punch them in the face and stand up. The idea that you're going to be dealing with someone who has an excellent Guard game on the street is laughable.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, but here's the thing; There's a systematic approach to properly escaping the Guard that someone untrained attacking you isn't going to utilize. So even if that is the goal, using an untrained person's reaction to your Guard is the best approach. If you teach someone how to properly escape the Guard, they're going to use those proper escaping tactics which is good for them, but actually bad for the person doing the Guard (for self defense). Which is why in my old gym (which was self defense oriented Bjj) we would take time out, put gloves and mouthpieces on, and spend a class dealing with an untrained person trying to get out of our guards.
> 
> As Drop Bear said, if you're in a SD situation and somehow you have an assailant on their back with you on top and they wrap their legs around you, you can just punch them in the face and stand up. The idea that you're going to be dealing with someone who has an excellent Guard game on the street is laughable.


10 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But more people know how to grapple than they used to, so it's more likely that someone will know the basics of a guard/how to escape it, meaning it's something to train for. Not doing so is like the people who say that they don't need good striking skills cause the bad guy won't know how to punch.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> 10 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But more people know how to grapple than they used to, so it's more likely that someone will know the basics of a guard/how to escape it, meaning it's something to train for. Not doing so is like the people who say that they don't need good striking skills cause the bad guy won't know how to punch.


can i ask you what you have trained in?


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're right that I haven't been in a ring. I've been in probably about 10 fights, some with martial artists (and 1 with a boxer), and most of my training has been with professional or amateur fighters, but never fought in a ring myself. I may have missed what you were saying so let me try to clarify what I understood.


who were the pro fighters? where & when?


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> 10 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But more people know how to grapple than they used to, so it's more likely that someone will know the basics of a guard/how to escape it, meaning it's something to train for. Not doing so is like the people who say that they don't need good striking skills cause the bad guy won't know how to punch.



I would argue though that being proficient in the Guard to the point where you you're using it for offense instead of defense requires an extremely high level of grappling proficiency. Hell, I've been in Bjj for almost 20 years and I wouldn't offensively use Guard in a self defense situation. Defensively? Of course. Offensively? No way.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> I would argue though that being proficient in the Guard to the point where you you're using it for offense instead of defense requires an extremely high level of grappling proficiency. Hell, I've been in Bjj for almost 20 years and I wouldn't offensively use Guard in a self defense situation. Defensively? Of course. Offensively? No way.


Not offensively using guard. But escaping guard doesn't require a whole lot of proficiency. So more people know how to do it, which means you've got to train against people who know how to do it now.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And you can see this with almost every eye gouging demonstration where generally every other factor of striking that keeps you safe is done wrong.
> 
> They stand directly in front at this terrible range. Fire out the eye gouge and then do almost nothing else. ( And beating your now pretend incapacitated parter doesn't count as something)


This is the problem of most TMA schools.  I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing.  But a lot of schools will show you what to do but not, how to actually set it up.  This is one thing that I always tried to include when I taught.   It wasn't enough for me to just say.  "Do THIS like THIS and the result is THAT"   For me it was always important to show what I was doing doing in terms of the technique, then actually show how I would set the technique up.  Not knowing how to set things up is like a chocolate cake without the chocolate.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> can i ask you what you have trained in?


I don't share who, mostly because I've never discussed with them talking about it online and I don't know what they do/don't want to share. Below is my experience, but keep in mind a lot of this occurred together, and it's been over the span of a couple decades so the years are my best guess.
kempo: 18-20 years, but I started around 3 so I wouldn't count most of that.
kickboxing: 5-6 years
boxing: 4 years
fencing (if you include that, it helped when I switched to kali): 4 years
    Knife fighting-taught by my fencing teacher for those 4 years, he had a background in a couple MAs not sure where he learned the knife fighting from. Very similar to kali though. 
sambo: 4 years
BJJ and judo: on/off, probably 1.5 years of actual training, stopped both due to injuries for a bit, then started again like a month before covid. 
muay thai: 1 year
kali: What I currently train, I think I started around 3/4 years ago.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> boxing: 4 years


ok but i do not think you have much experience.  I boxed at Army level so no pro but i do not believe you boxed 4 years but it does not matter i am not on here to make enemies.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not offensively using guard. But escaping guard doesn't require a whole lot of proficiency. So more people know how to do it, which means you've got to train against people who know how to do it now.



Yeah but in a* self defense situation*, how often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard on you? How often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard to the point where they're a threat to you? I'm running through self defense scenarios in my head and I really can't think of one where you, the victim is wrapped up in an assailant's Guard and in mortal danger. I can't even think of a scenario where you end up in someone's Guard if you're being attacked by someone.

Like for example, if you're a woman and some rapist attempts to pin you down, you get into Guard, sweep them, and end up on top. You're not in their Guard, you're in Mount.

You're leaving a bar and some goon tackles you to the ground, and you enter Guard, wrap them up, sweep them and end up on top. Again, you're not in their Guard, you're in Mount.

Help me out here, I'm just not seeing a situation where you'd wind up in an attacker's Guard. I suppose MAYBE you could sock some clown in the face, they fall to the ground, and you follow them to the ground and your start wrestling with them and they could put you in Guard, but why would you ever follow someone to the ground in a crowded room if you're standing?

Even if that happened inside your house and you knocked an assailant to the ground, why would you follow them to the ground? Just start soccer kicking them in the head or curb stomping them.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> how much power do you need to poke an eye? I remember an Argyll Sgt asking me what i would do in a fight & i said head butt him which was my thing as a young guy & he said no spit in his eyes.



Have a look at that position where the guy is bent over and the side of his head is blocked by an elbow.

You think you could reach the eye?


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Have a look at that position where the guy is bent over and the side of his head is blocked by an elbow.
> 
> You think you could reach the eye?
> View attachment 23456


clutching at straws here..what if ..what if.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And you can see this with almost every eye gouging demonstration where generally every other factor of striking that keeps you safe is done wrong.
> 
> They stand directly in front at this terrible range. Fire out the eye gouge and then do almost nothing else. ( And beating your now pretend incapacitated parter doesn't count as something)


I really only like things like eye gouges when they are covered as an option from a given position, with perhaps a few repetitions to allow time to explore the openings. Good striking, positioning, etc. are the fundamental skills. Gouging is just a potential use in a relatively small number of circumstances.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> I have also learned some Aikido, Tendo ryu & Takemusu Aikido. one has short sabaki the other more dynamic round. I know the score & also judo. I served 9 years in the Army & worked in armed security for the Brit army for 7 years. I am not a moron . Trust me if you try these locks such as Nikyo  on the street you will lose. Now what most Aikido classes do not really teach is Atemi waza (striking). I honestly have more respect for Judo than aikido as it´s more "Hands on" randori.  The worst Aikido is the Aiki Kai it´s just a "Do" a way a philosophy not real. Maybe you need to look at Daitio Ryu which is shorter & harder. still no use for modern day combat. stop dreaming about O sensei & his amazing techniques of "Aiki". Worst student of him was Tohei Sensei !!!


“Do” isn’t “not real”, it’s just focused on things other than combat. As for nikkyo and related locks not working, I know a couple of prison guards and a few cops who’d disagree. If you use them properly, and set them up with positioning and structure-breaking, they have value.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> OK whatever mate. can´t be arsed to discuss it with you if you are so pig headed.


Says the guy who never really tried to discuss it to start with.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

stanly stud said:


> who were the pro fighters? where & when?


You’re deflecting by challenging credentials, rather than simply discussing the topic. He asked a questing. Why not just answer?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah but in a* self defense situation*, how often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard on you? How often are you going to encounter someone using the Guard to the point where they're a threat to you? I'm running through self defense scenarios in my head and I really can't think of one where you, the victim is wrapped up in an assailant's Guard and in mortal danger. I can't even think of a scenario where you end up in someone's Guard if you're being attacked by someone.
> 
> Like for example, if you're a woman and some rapist attempts to pin you down, you get into Guard, sweep them, and end up on top. You're not in their Guard, you're in Mount.
> 
> ...


You're getting it mixed it. No one's going to use the guard on you. I agreed with you on that from the beginning. But you might use the guard on someone, and if you do, they may have some idea of the baaics on how to escape guard. If tbey do, you need to know how to keep them there. Which means you need to practice that in class, which involves both people learning how to escape guard for the practice to be useful.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're getting it mixed it. No one's going to use the guard on you. I agreed with you on that from the beginning. But you might use the guard on someone, and if you do, they may have some idea of the baaics on how to escape guard. If tbey do, you need to know how to keep them there. Which means you need to practice that in class, which involves both people learning how to escape guard for the practice to be useful.



Gotcha. My main point though was revolving around that video I originally posted where they're attempting to teach a systematic approach towards escaping the Guard in a self defense context (it's a bad approach, and the context behind it is dumb in of itself). 

However, I completely agree that if you're learning the Guard for self defense, you need to practice dealing with people attempting to escape from the hold.

Looks like we just got our wires crossed.


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Dec 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> “Do” isn’t “not real”, it’s just focused on things other than combat. As for nikkyo and related locks not working, I know a couple of prison guards and a few cops who’d disagree. If you use them properly, and set them up with positioning and structure-breaking, they have value.



I concur. As said, my first Aikido Sensei was retired NYPD, and NY sees quite a bit of action. He specifically said that he found Aikido more applicable to the job than a striking style. I'd be curious to know how much Aikido Stanly Stud studied... I've found that it takes awhile for the lesson about breaking down structure and balance, in order to assume control, to really sink in. At least, it did for me!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> Gotcha. My main point though was revolving around that video I originally posted where they're attempting to teach a systematic approach towards escaping the Guard in a self defense context (it's a bad approach, and the context behind it is dumb in of itself).
> 
> However, I completely agree that if you're learning the Guard for self defense, you need to practice dealing with people attempting to escape from the hold.
> 
> Looks like we just got our wires crossed.


Seems like it. I was wondering where the issue was, sometimes these things don't come across right over text. That video you posted was a horrible self defense drill for a couple reasons.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> 10 years ago I'd have agreed with you. But more people know how to grapple than they used to, so it's more likely that someone will know the basics of a guard/how to escape it, meaning it's something to train for. Not doing so is like the people who say that they don't need good striking skills cause the bad guy won't know how to punch.


This is my mindset as well.  If I get into a fight, I'm more likely to encounter someone who is going to try and run their ground game on me.  Which is why I'm always bringing up avoiding or preventing takedowns.  I can look at random street fight videos and the ground game will come up often.   If they think they can slam you they will try to do that.  If they think they can ground and pound, then they will do that.  The popularity of MMA has attracted many people to train it, especially BJJ.

My default assumption is that a person will try to take me down BJJ or MMA me. lol.    All those fanboys out there


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is my mindset as well.  If I get into a fight, I'm more likely to encounter someone who is going to try and run their ground game on me.  Which is why I'm always bringing up avoiding or preventing takedowns.  I can look at random street fight videos and the ground game will come up often.   If they think they can slam you they will try to do that.  If they think they can ground and pound, then they will do that.  The popularity of MMA has attracted many people to train it, especially BJJ.
> 
> My default assumption is that a person will try to take me down BJJ or MMA me. lol.    All those fanboys out there



You should learn the Guard in case your attempts to prevent the takedown fail. The last place you want to be is on your back not knowing what to do.


----------



## Kemposhot (Dec 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is my mindset as well.  If I get into a fight, I'm more likely to encounter someone who is going to try and run their ground game on me.  Which is why I'm always bringing up avoiding or preventing takedowns.  I can look at random street fight videos and the ground game will come up often.   If they think they can slam you they will try to do that.  If they think they can ground and pound, then they will do that.  The popularity of MMA has attracted many people to train it, especially BJJ.
> 
> My default assumption is that a person will try to take me down BJJ or MMA me. lol.    All those fanboys out there



We started training with this mentality in my system as well a few years back.  It makes logical sense, people will attempt to mimic what they see.  Also as you said, no telling how many people out there have taken some basic mma classes at their local gym or train with their friends who do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> I concur. As said, my first Aikido Sensei was retired NYPD, and NY sees quite a bit of action. He specifically said that he found Aikido more applicable to the job than a striking style. I'd be curious to know how much Aikido Stanly Stud studied... I've found that it takes awhile for the lesson about breaking down structure and balance, in order to assume control, to really sink in. At least, it did for me!


And I've seen some Aikido instructors who don't seem to teach that lesson, at all. From what I saw in the classes, folks appear to learn in on their own through repetition. This might be a training flaw engendered by the focus on Aiki, where some folks see any input of strength (even small ones) as not "aiki" enough. That leaves less experienced folks with few tools for breaking structure.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is my mindset as well.  If I get into a fight, I'm more likely to encounter someone who is going to try and run their ground game on me.  Which is why I'm always bringing up avoiding or preventing takedowns.  I can look at random street fight videos and the ground game will come up often.   If they think they can slam you they will try to do that.  If they think they can ground and pound, then they will do that.  The popularity of MMA has attracted many people to train it, especially BJJ.
> 
> My default assumption is that a person will try to take me down BJJ or MMA me. lol.    All those fanboys out there


I'll just add that my primary thought of ground game is that I'm not always sure I won't just trip during the encounter. I'm pretty good at takedown defense, but that doesn't help if I trip over a chair I didn't notice.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

Hanzou said:


> You should learn the Guard in case your attempts to prevent the takedown fail. The last place you want to be is on your back not knowing what to do.


I don't do a lot of ground fight work, but we do work on surviving mount, some basic getting into and protecting in guard, and reversing into mount (or just escaping). Pretty much everything else on the ground is a variation of side control.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

I'll also add, to @Hanzou's point, that schools that don't have an experienced ground fighter benefit a lot from occasional seminars on ground fighting, especially if the guest instructor brings a couple of mid-level students to play.


----------



## stanly stud (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Says the guy who never really tried to discuss it to start with.


I think i have mate just not going to get into a silly online bitching match with a guy who is waffling about it. too much blah..blah with no substance behind it. Why get into a pointless discussion with a guy who i know has (in my opinion) never been in a ring?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'll also add, to @Hanzou's point, that schools that don't have an experienced ground fighter benefit a lot from occasional seminars on ground fighting, especially if the guest instructor brings a couple of mid-level students to play.


This is why it's good to spar with schools of different systems.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

stanly stud said:


> i know has (in my opinion)


There's a problem in that statement.


----------



## stanly stud (Jan 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There's a problem in that statement.


not really mate, my opinion.


----------

