# Is it a consensus in the martial arts world that... BJJ is the best?



## Zombocalypse (Dec 1, 2022)

Title.

I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.

If the consensus is shaky, however... Then I want to stick to Judo. Judo looks awesome.

Honestly my goal is really to be skilled enough to easily neutralize or hurt a same-sized person who's hostile against me, without weapons. I have no ambitions of being competitive. If Judo is more than enough for that, then Judo it is. But if Brazilian Jiu Jitsu will do it far better, then I may have to reconsider.


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 1, 2022)

Also, dear folks, I want to make it clear that the reason I seem to be overthinking it is because I have enough time to. My main activity outside of college and outside of video games is Olympic lifting. I want to get used to lifting weights daily first before adding martial arts training. So I really have time to analyze which one to do. And I live in a good city. There are several options for me here.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 1, 2022)

Beginners please read: What Kind of Pie is Best? (Finding a Martial Art)


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## frank raud (Dec 1, 2022)

It is a concensus amongst BJJ players that it is the best.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 1, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...



Yes it is the best. 
It being the art one trains. 
As no one wants to train in the second to worst best art.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 3, 2022)

Is it a consensus? As Frank said, only among BJJ practitioners/players/fans... and fools who get their information from a you-tube top 10 list put together by WatchMojo... 

Realistically, there is no single "best" martial art, just like there's no one "best" flavour ice-cream, or musical style, etc... the question is always more about what you're expecting out of it, and whether it matches that, then what the teacher themselves are like (a good teacher in a system you may not have considered trumps a mediocre or poor teacher in an art you've decided must be "the one").

At the end of the day, you do what makes you happy. End of story.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 3, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...


Go away troll


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## ronki23 (Dec 3, 2022)

As an ex-judoka, I find that BJJ is the easy option. The BJJ rolling often starts from the knees and they pull guard to avoid getting thrown. I haven't done BJJ but I've done no-gi. You're better off with judo as you'll learn throws


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2022)

The consensus is wrestling. But BJJ is a bit easier.









						Why Do Wrestlers Dominate MMA?
					

According to famous MMA color commentator Joe Rogan, wrestlers dominate MMA because the wrestling style allows fighters to “dictate where the fight takes place”. Wrestlers tend to have an easier time putting their opponent into a disadvantageous position and are also equipped with the tools...




					mmachannel.com


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## Zombocalypse (Dec 3, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Go away troll



I'm not here to troll.


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## Hanzou (Dec 3, 2022)

if we’re comparing Bjj to Judo, I would almost always recommend Bjj. It’s simply more adaptable and easier on the body, and also allows far more variation. If you’re finding Judo boring, Bjj would be a good option.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The consensus is wrestling. But BJJ is a bit easier.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sigh... no, it's not. And, no, it's not.

MMA competition is one, and to be very clear, one very limited context in which to explore the merits of a particular combative system... but hardly the only, or most thorough, way to explore their value. Frankly, I don't care one iota what people value for MMA... it's such a basic, low-level way of thinking of martial arts that it barely rates considering at all, as far as I'm concerned. Now, that needs to be looked at in it's own context as well... plenty of people think it's the only, best, most superior, most accurate way of assessing a system... and that's fine... provided you also recognise that that is only your values, and far from the only ones around.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2022)

Chris Parker said:


> Sigh... no, it's not. And, no, it's not.
> 
> MMA competition is one, and to be very clear, one very limited context in which to explore the merits of a particular combative system... but hardly the only, or most thorough, way to explore their value. Frankly, I don't care one iota what people value for MMA... it's such a basic, low-level way of thinking of martial arts that it barely rates considering at all, as far as I'm concerned. Now, that needs to be looked at in it's own context as well... plenty of people think it's the only, best, most superior, most accurate way of assessing a system... and that's fine... provided you also recognise that that is only your values, and far from the only ones around.



There are a few ways to assess a fighting system so that you can make an informed judgement.

They need to fight. This is kind of non negotiable. I am not even sure how there is an argument against this.

You need to see them fight. This is more important. As fighting is such a massive subject that it can be easily manipulated if you don't really know what you are looking at.

And it needs to be consistent, honest and transparent. Fight enough people and you don't always win. Fight good people and you don't always win. These assessments are what creates a depth of understanding about fighting. 

With MMA we already have this information basically presented to us in the most easily accessible and honest way that is possible at the moment. 

I could bang on about bjj in the street or military combatives and police moving towards a MMA dynamic. I could show videos of mma fighters successfully defending themselves or tell stories of daring do. 

But these assessments are quite simply less reliable than being able to watch people fight and come up with some common themes.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2022)

As far as limited context goes. You can move the context.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 4, 2022)

drop bear said:


> As far as limited context goes. You can move the context.


I’ve done sparring in a car before, but it wasn’t a convertible. The roof significantly changes the dynamic from what you see in that video.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’ve done sparring in a car before, but it wasn’t a convertible. The roof significantly changes the dynamic from what you see in that video.



Honestly I was waiting for someone to trip and break their leg with that one.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 5, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There are a few ways to assess a fighting system so that you can make an informed judgement.



And this is what I'm talking about... you're already starting from a very limited and flawed premise, although not necessarily a rare one, just an uninformed one, namely that martial arts are "fighting systems"... 

Firstly, no, not all martial arts are what I would refer to as "fighting systems", secondly, most that are are rather superficial and limited in their approach, as they will typically be highly geared towards a very particular context and application, thirdly, the idea of a martial system being a "fighting system" immediately begs the question "in what context?". Fighting, by itself, covers such a wide gamut that applying it to "martial arts" as being what they're actually concerned with would leave every single system on the planet deeply lacking, most especially those that concern themselves with "fighting" as a primary facet to begin with.



drop bear said:


> They need to fight. This is kind of non negotiable. I am not even sure how there is an argument against this.



And that's because your personal worldview of martial arts is single-faceted, myopic, and, frankly, basic. Does Taiji need to prove itself in an octagon to have value as a martial art? How about fencing? Does Judo lose it's status if one practitioner gets jumped by five guys with baseball bats? That's fighting, isn't it? 

Does everything in a martial art have to be about fighting? Does any of it? How are you defining "need to fight"? Again, that's such a wide-covering concept that, bluntly, you don't even know what you mean by it. You have an idea, and an image, and expect things to match your preconceived notions, but even that is fairly vague and ill-defined. Do you mean in a cage? In a competition? Is it to the death? If the answer is no to any of these, why not? If the answer is yes, and a system simply cannot be presented in that format with any kind of reality, does that change the status? Why? Or why not? 



drop bear said:


> You need to see them fight. This is more important. As fighting is such a massive subject that it can be easily manipulated if you don't really know what you are looking at.



Please. If it's the only litmus test, and the only way to see the value in a martial system, then it shouldn't be so easily manipulated... if it's easy to manipulate, then it's not a valid test or assessment system... so what's the point?



drop bear said:


> And it needs to be consistent, honest and transparent. Fight enough people and you don't always win. Fight good people and you don't always win. These assessments are what creates a depth of understanding about fighting.



So... if one person gains consistency, but another doesn't, is it the system, or the person? Or something else? If one person wipes the floor with whoever he meets, but someone else doing the same system keeps getting beat, what's the reason? And how are these fights being conducted and organised? Is that consistent? Regardless of the system being tested or assessed? Is that a reasonable way to go about this?



drop bear said:


> With MMA we already have this information basically presented to us in the most easily accessible and honest way that is possible at the moment.



No, you have one set of parameters that automatically discount about 90%+ of systems and approaches, not to mention that all it really is is a way of reinforcing its own structure. Bluntly, it's irrelevant for the majority of systems, and the contexts that they are designed to work within. 



drop bear said:


> I could bang on about bjj in the street or military combatives and police moving towards a MMA dynamic.



You could... of course, I could counter them with the reality of why BJJ was selected for a number of military training programs (it has almost nothing to do with "effectiveness"), stories of usage in the "street" that end very poorly for the person who tries it (and, the opposite, of course), the issues with police moving towards MMA-style approaches, from ethical, legal, and PR standpoints... 



drop bear said:


> I could show videos of mma fighters successfully defending themselves or tell stories of daring do.



And I can bring up stories of similar people being killed trying.



drop bear said:


> But these assessments are quite simply less reliable than being able to watch people fight and come up with some common themes.



Only if the themes are equally applicable... and, frankly, they're not.



drop bear said:


> As far as limited context goes. You can move the context.



That's a change to environment, not context.


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2022)

Chris Parker said:


> And this is what I'm talking about... you're already starting from a very limited and flawed premise, although not necessarily a rare one, just an uninformed one, namely that martial arts are "fighting systems"...
> 
> Firstly, no, not all martial arts are what I would refer to as "fighting systems", secondly, most that are are rather superficial and limited in their approach, as they will typically be highly geared towards a very particular context and application, thirdly, the idea of a martial system being a "fighting system" immediately begs the question "in what context?". Fighting, by itself, covers such a wide gamut that applying it to "martial arts" as being what they're actually concerned with would leave every single system on the planet deeply lacking, most especially those that concern themselves with "fighting" as a primary facet to begin



Do you understand fight meta? And concept training? Because you shouldn't really have to have the context if you have good foundations.

You should have the tools to solve problems. Not have a bunch of problems already solved. So it is not a limited way of approaching the problem or a limited understanding. 

And the guy who made the thread wants advice on a fighting system. He wa at to be able to neutralise a same size opponent.


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2022)

Chris Parker said:


> Please. If it's the only litmus test, and the only way to see the value in a martial system, then it shouldn't be so easily manipulated... if it's easy to manipulate, then it's not a valid test or assessment system... so what's the point?



Testing still has to be by a standard. It is why psychic's tend to fail scientific tests but can perform convincing demonstrations. And it is important to know which is which.


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## drop bear (Dec 5, 2022)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you have one set of parameters that automatically discount about 90%+ of systems and approaches, not to mention that all it really is is a way of reinforcing its own structure. Bluntly, it's irrelevant for the majority of systems, and the contexts that they are designed to work within



Ok then show me the evidence the other 90% of systems and approaches have. 

Make a case for whatever this mystery method is.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 5, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’ve done sparring in a car before, but it wasn’t a convertible. The roof significantly changes the dynamic from what you see in that video.


I've done it using my own cars and my own family. Mostly with squirt guns, because paintballs are hard to get off the upholstery.
Car jacking training...


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## frank raud (Dec 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I've done it using my own cars and my own family. Mostly with squirt guns, because paintballs are hard to get off the upholstery.
> Car jacking training...


I've done knife grappling in my own car, had two brothers, one at 6'9, 290lbs, the other at 6'5" 350 lbs grappling in the back seat of my Ford Focus. Done gun grappling with Sims in a rented car, and in a couple of wrecked cars brought in specifically to grapple in.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 5, 2022)

frank raud said:


> I've done knife grappling in my own car, had two brothers, one at 6'9, 290lbs, the other at 6'5" 350 lbs grappling in the back seat of my Ford Focus. Done gun grappling with Sims in a rented car, and in a couple of wrecked cars brought in specifically to grapple in.


I pictured you big dudes going into the Drive in movies in a Ford Focus and then fighting in the back seat over who ate the red vines. A completely different way to steam up the windows and rock the car…😍


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## frank raud (Dec 5, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I pictured you big dudes going into the Drive in movies in a Ford Focus and then fighting in the back seat over who ate the red vines. A completely different way to steam up the windows and rock the car…😍


If you picture a clown car, that was the thought when those twobpiled out of my car. When you have close to 700 lbs fighting in the backseat, it gives new meaning to " If this car's rocking, don't bother knocking".


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## Buka (Dec 5, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...


"Walking distance". Go there, have fun.

You can learn a lot training in BJJ.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 8, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...



Okay, absolutely not (that BJJ is the "best"). I teach Japanese JJ and am also studying BJJ. It always irritates me when people assume so. It is widely marketed that way for sure, but it certainly is not the case. Ultimately, the effectiveness of a martial art comes down to two main things: (1) your goal, (2) your environment.

If you want to learn to be very effective in a controlled 1vs1 scenario, learn a competition style (Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, etc). 

If you want to learn force multipliers, learn weapons arts (Kenjutsu, Kyudo, Kendo, HEMA, Kali, etc.) or formally learn to use various different types of firearms (pistols, semi-auto rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, etc).

If you want to focus more on inner/spiritual growth, try out Tai Chi or Aikido.

If you want to learn to fend against people without going straight to the ground and learning to keep aware of your surroundings, then look for a style that has its roots in war (Japanese Jujutsu, Ninjutsu, Pencak Silat, military combatives (MAC, MCMAP), etc).

There are positives and negatives to all three of the above. Some of the ones I listed above check off a few boxes - I just wanted to provide a general idea. Which one is "best" is ultimately up to you. Comparing martial arts styles isn't apples to apples - it's always apples to oranges. Every style has a different purpose born from a different history for a specific cause. Determining the quality of a martial art by tossing all of them into a ring is a horrible and quite amateur'ish way to compare them (not taking a stab at you, just that is a very common misconception people have).


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## Yamabushii (Dec 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> There are a few ways to assess a fighting system so that you can make an informed judgement.
> 
> They need to fight. This is kind of non negotiable. I am not even sure how there is an argument against this.
> 
> ...


This. Even with a background mostly in traditional martial arts, this realization is what ultimately drove me to how I teach my own students. All of our techniques are pressure tested at the end of every class for 20-30 mins where everyone spars, with gear. Too many traditional martial arts classes are full of lecture, theory, and history, and teachers demonstrating techniques will react in lightning speed to a student attacking in slow-motion, then holding their student in a painful position while they lecture theory and go off on a rant for 5 full minutes at a time. 

Arts like MMA and BJJ sell themselves for the reasons you mentioned.


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## drop bear (Dec 8, 2022)

Yamabushii said:


> This. Even with a background mostly in traditional martial arts, this realization is what ultimately drove me to how I teach my own students. All of our techniques are pressure tested at the end of every class for 20-30 mins where everyone spars, with gear. Too many traditional martial arts classes are full of lecture, theory, and history, and teachers demonstrating techniques will react in lightning speed to a student attacking in slow-motion, then holding their student in a painful position while they lecture theory and go off on a rant for 5 full minutes at a time.
> 
> Arts like MMA and BJJ sell themselves for the reasons you mentioned.


Another issue I think with messing around too much with combat scenarios and drills and the like. Is you get too good at making that work.

And so basically collapse when attacked because you have trained that as much as you have trained to fight someone who will basically collapse on you.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 8, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Another issue I think with messing around too much with combat scenarios and drills and the like. Is you get too good at making that work.
> 
> And so basically collapse when attacked because you have trained that as much as you have trained to fight someone who will basically collapse on you.


Well said, and I have personally seen this happen to others as well. It's always amazing seeing what I refer to as "Kata Heroes" attempt to apply their knowledge when pressure testing or sparring.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2022)

Yamabushii said:


> This. Even with a background mostly in traditional martial arts, this realization is what ultimately drove me to how I teach my own students. All of our techniques are pressure tested at the end of every class for 20-30 mins where everyone spars, with gear. Too many traditional martial arts classes are full of lecture, theory, and history, and teachers demonstrating techniques will react in lightning speed to a student attacking in slow-motion, then holding their student in a painful position while they lecture theory and go off on a rant for 5 full minutes at a time.
> 
> Arts like MMA and BJJ sell themselves for the reasons you mentioned.


This sparring is something I look for when checking out a new dojo. Not because I need to spar (though I do enjoy it), but because I have no way of knowing they actually understand how to use their techniques. I can count on one hand the number of people I'd train with, without them doing any sparring, and 2 of them are from this site.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This sparring is something I look for when checking out a new dojo. Not because I need to spar (though I do enjoy it), but because I have no way of knowing they actually understand how to use their techniques. I can count on one hand the number of people I'd train with, without them doing any sparring, and 2 of them are from this site.


…the envelope please…


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> …the envelope please…


?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> ?


You said two of the people you would train with are from here. So, who are they? Thus, the envelope please.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> ?


Sigh…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 8, 2022)

Is this thing on?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You said two of the people you would train with are from here. So, who are they? Thus, the envelope please.


Ah. Xue and Crane.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ah. Xue and Crane.


To clarify, there's more that I would train with from here. Those are just the two that don't spar (for different reasons) who I'd still like to train with given the chance.


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## Darren (Dec 10, 2022)

Rolled with a guy that said he ran and lifted weights for 20 years, and BJJ was the best by far he ever got from running and lifting weights! I sure do love it but a 5 minute roll seems to last only 45 seconds!!


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## Anarax (Dec 11, 2022)

Absolutely, 100%, no question about it. Just ask the Gracies 🤣. On a serious note, no it's not. I have experience in both BJJ and Judo, personally I believe Judo(non-Olympic) to be a more complete grappling system.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 12, 2022)




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## skribs (Dec 12, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...


BJJ is a good art.  There are a lot of good arts.  There's a saying in BJJ, "Leave your ego at the door."  What I think has happened is that the ego that got left at the door by every student has accumulated into this monstrosity that bullies martial arts forums into submission.  Within BJJ, there isn't an ego.  But when someone who does BJJ talks to someone who doesn't, there's typically a very snobbish attitude, like BJJ is an A-grade martial art, and everything else is a D or an F.  The best people at looking down on the other arts are the Gracies, so one could argue it's part of the art.

I don't have experience in Judo.  I've done about 13 years of Taekwondo, 8 years of Hapkido, 3 years of wrestling, and a few months ago I started BJJ.  It is definitely a good martial art, and you'll learn a lot.  But that doesn't mean you won't learn a lot in Judo and/or boxing.  Or really any other art.  What you learn and how you learn it will be different.  If that's better for you and for your needs is up to you to decide.  It's probably going to be more about the specific gym culture than the art overall.  Like I said above, I find most BJJ folks online to be absolutely dismal to talk to, but I love the people I train with at my gym.  

My advice for you depends on your situation.  I'm going to generally focus on "Judo vs BJJ" and assume you might do boxing with it either way.

If you are a beginner in Judo and currently love your class, don't do BJJ right now.  Keep doing Judo.  Later on, when you're more experienced, if there are specific things you want to learn that BJJ has and Judo doesn't, or if you want to deep-dive into the ground game in ways that your Judo class isn't, then adding on BJJ or switching to BJJ would be a good idea.
If you haven't started yet, try both Judo and BJJ and see which class you felt strongest about.  This will be a combination of the teaching, the material, and how well you fit in with the students.  
If you like Judo in theory but don't fit in at your Judo school, then give BJJ a try.  Most schools will let you do a free or cheap trial class to see how you like it.  Or try other Judo schools in your area (if available).  If you try a BJJ school and don't like it, then you can try another and see if that culture fits you better.  Or just stick to boxing.  Or try something else out.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 13, 2022)

It's decently the best art if your on your back or for submissions period it's one the best as it has evolved so much taking judo wrestling and now alot of sambo leg lock crossovers but definitely one of the worst for stand up striking


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Anarax said:


> Absolutely, 100%, no question about it. Just ask the Gracies 🤣. On a serious note, no it's not. I have experience in both BJJ and Judo, personally I believe Judo(non-Olympic) to be a more complete grappling system.



How can that be the case when leg locks, shoulder locks, and multiple takedowns aren't taught?


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Don-Lee said:


> he wrote *non olympic *. it was actually tought before Olympic Judo


You’ll be hard pressed to find a Judo dojo anywhere in the world teaching techniques banned in randori practice. Especially something like leg locks and leg lock entries.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Don-Lee said:


> but how do* you *really know?



Uh, because leg locks and their entries have been banned from randori practice for almost 100 years in Judo. That means you're not allowed to even practice it on a mat in a Judo dojo.

And yeah, that ban predates Olympic Judo. There might be some rogue Judo group looking up some Bjj videos to try to add leg locks to their game, but you're not going to learn them in a Judo dojo.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> You’ll be hard pressed to find a Judo dojo anywhere in the world teaching techniques banned in randori practice. Especially something like leg locks and leg lock entries.


I think that's what would differentiate it as non-olympic. The only judo school I trained at was non-olympic and taught those things.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think that's what would differentiate it as non-olympic. The only judo school I trained at was non-olympic and taught those things.


Do you have a link to this dojo's website?


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## Anarax (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> How can that be the case when leg locks, shoulder locks, and multiple takedowns aren't taught?


I've been fortunate enough to have more old-school Judo instructors that teach banned techniques, hence why I said "non-Olympic Judo".


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Anarax said:


> I've been fortunate enough to have more old-school Judo instructors that teach banned techniques, hence why I said "non-Olympic Judo".


Of course you have.... 

Listen, saying that Judo is a more complete system because you supposedly had some Judo guru in his garage teach you "teh secret sauce" doesn't make Judo a more complete grappling system. The simple reality is that if the average person goes to the average Judo dojo, they won't be getting a complete grappling system compared to what they'd get at the average BJJ school. 

Those are simply the facts.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Don-Lee said:


> for you maybe but there are schools of judo who teach a lot of old school judo. also why are you getting upset?



I'm sure there's Judo schools that teach boxing and classical Japanese swordsmanship.

That doesn't change the argument at all.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Don-Lee said:


> only you are calling this an argument.


Uh, that's objectively what is is; The nonsensical belief that Judo is taught as a complete grappling system when it clearly isn't by the vast majority of practitioners utilizing said system.

With that, I have no interest in a back and forth with an obvious troll, so feel free to have the last word.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> The simple reality is that if the average person goes to the average Judo dojo, they won't be getting a complete grappling system compared to what they'd get at the average BJJ school.
> 
> Those are simply the facts.


Do you agree that:

- Judo is a 80% throwing art and 20% ground game. Judo may only cover part of the ground game.
- BJJ is 20% throwing and 80% ground game. BJJ may only cover part of the throwing art.

Do average BJJ schools teach this "leg lift" throw?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Do you have a link to this dojo's website?


Here's their judo page (you can navigate around from there) 
Judo — South Mountain Martial Arts

It's been about 8 years since I trained there, so looks like they've changed to calling it judo and jujitsu, possibly because they incorporate those. A lot could have changed, but back when I trained there, it was specifically 'judo' and they included leg locks/entries. 

They've also got sambo there, but the two are distinctly separate. It was run by 2 brothers, one who focused in judo, the other who focused in sambo/kenpo, and they don't (or at least didn't) interfere with the others' classes. I'm only seeing one of the brothers listed on there now, so something might have happened to the other and Dayn took over most of the classes.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you agree that:
> 
> - Judo is a 80% throwing art and 20% ground game. Judo may only cover part of the ground game.
> - BJJ is 20% throwing and 80% ground game. BJJ may only cover part of the throwing art.
> ...



No and no. I would actually argue that Judo is about 5% ground and 95% standup at this point. Bjj expanded newaza  far beyond what you see in judo. As for that throw, not really. Bjj exponents tend to highly favor wrestling-style takedowns over Judo throws, especially in no-gi. Not doing Judo throws doesn’t mean that you’re not doing stand-up.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Here's their judo page (you can navigate around from there)
> Judo — South Mountain Martial Arts
> 
> It's been about 8 years since I trained there, so looks like they've changed to calling it judo and jujitsu, possibly because they incorporate those. A lot could have changed, but back when I trained there, it was specifically 'judo' and they included leg locks/entries.
> ...



Yeah, I noticed they’re calling their system South Mountain Jujitsu instead of just Judo. As you said, this was more likely done because they were incorporating stuff that simply isn’t allowed in modern Judo so they couldn’t call themselves a Judo dojo. 

This simply isn’t the case in Bjj.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj exponents tend to highly favor wrestling-style takedowns over Judo throws, especially in no-gi. Not doing Judo throws doesn’t mean that you’re not doing stand-up.


Agree with you on this. It seems to me that not all Judo guys want to train no-gi. That put a limitation on the future of the Judo development.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you on this. It seems to me that not all Judo guys want to train no-gi. That put a limit on the future of the Judo development.



Well not only that, but wrestling takedowns  are simply easier to learn than Judo throws, which are highly technical and have a higher overall skill floor. A high school kid doing scholastic wrestling for four years will simply be a better grappler than a high school kid taking Judo in the same time frame.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> wrestling takedowns  are simply easier to learn than Judo throws,


I believe wrestling has less throws to train than Judo has. I don't know how many throws that Judo has, but Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) that's similiar to Judo has over 230 throws. IMO, nobody can master all those throws in his life time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> No and no. I would actually argue that Judo is about 5% ground and 95% standup at this point.


I'm not a Judo guy. I don't know Judo only has 5% ground.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe wrestling has less throws to train than Judo has. I don't know how many throws that Judo has, but Chinese wrestling (Shuai Chiao) that's similiar to Judo has over 230 throws. IMO, nobody can master all those throws in his life time.



Simply put, a single leg or body lock is easier to perform than a Harai Goahi or an Uchi Mata.


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## Hanzou (Dec 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm not a Judo guy. I don't know Judo only has 5% ground.



If we’re classifying “ground” as what is taught in modern Bjj/submission grappling, then I would definitely say that Judo is 5% ground in comparison, and that percentage is constantly shrinking. Ten years ago I would say that a black belt in Judo would be about a mid to upper level blue belt in Bjj in terms of ground fighting skill. Now I would say they would be an upper tier white belt or lower. Bjj has evolved that much in the past decade, and simply continues to do so.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 19, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Simply put, a single leg or body lock is easier to perform than a Harai Goahi or an Uchi Mata.


Both throws do require good balance, and flexibility. It does take much long time to develop it.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Simply put, a single leg or body lock is easier to perform than a Harai Goahi or an Uchi Mata.



The really weird part about judo throws vs wrestling throws is wrestling does judo throws.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2022)

I pull this out as an easy example.





Punches kind of cheat the system a bit in that you don't have to learn as intricate grappling system to properly utilise it. 

And the intricate system that makes good grappling, inverting, leg locks, fighting from guard. Are very susceptible to punching. 

So you can more efficiently train a wrestling or a folk style or a sambo or something. And be better quicker. 

And I think the basic wrestling ideas are more transferable to self defence. Especially the getting back to your feet aspects. 

But BJJ is a bit easier to do and it is easier to find consistency and quality.


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## Hanzou (Dec 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I pull this out as an easy example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing is that wrestling and Bjj compliment each other quite well and cover each other’s flaws. Wrestling covers BJJ’s standup and top game, and Bjj covers Wrestling’s bottom game and submissions. Put them together and you have modern submission grappling that is constantly evolving and often times still referred to as Bjj. This occurred because (especially in the states) Bjj embraced wrestling while Judo largely ran from it. So former collegiate and high school wrestlers could continue grappling in Bjj competitions and MMA. As the years go on, you’re seeing more and more Bjj black belts with a heavy wrestling background.

Bjj simply has the advantage that pretty anything goes grappling-wise in a Bjj gym. If it works, it will be considered Bjj, despite where it came from.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I noticed they’re calling their system South Mountain Jujitsu instead of just Judo. As you said, this was more likely done because they were incorporating stuff that simply isn’t allowed in modern Judo so they couldn’t call themselves a Judo dojo.
> 
> This simply isn’t the case in Bjj.


I'm not sure what the reasoning is, and know that they're not affiliated with the kodokan themselves or the IJF (they actively chose not to when I was there, and the website does not indicate anything different), but they only called themselves judo when I was there. What's interesting is while they call it "South mountain jujitsu", the rest of the line is "is our form of classical judo". So in their minds it's likely still pure judo. 

This part is definitely the essence of their philosophy "far more than a struggle for petty points & penalties among the hyperfit". Pretty much all the judo players and instructors there were very frustrated with some rules put in place (this would have been around 2012/13), primarily the (then-recent) change in leg grabs, something with how the penalties are awarded, and people going for points rather than throws and/or follow-up submissions when applicable. So it would not surprise me if the relationship has since soured even further.

All that said, my point was that the one judo school I've trained in does not have the issues that you're claiming, and at the time was purely judo. Offered as a contrast.


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## Hanzou (Dec 20, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not sure what the reasoning is, and know that they're not affiliated with the kodokan themselves or the IJF (they actively chose not to when I was there, and the website does not indicate anything different), but they only called themselves judo when I was there. What's interesting is while they call it "South mountain jujitsu", the rest of the line is "is our form of classical judo". So in their minds it's likely still pure judo.
> 
> This part is definitely the essence of their philosophy "far more than a struggle for petty points & penalties among the hyperfit". Pretty much all the judo players and instructors there were very frustrated with some rules put in place (this would have been around 2012/13), primarily the (then-recent) change in leg grabs, something with how the penalties are awarded, and people going for points rather than throws and/or follow-up submissions when applicable. So it would not surprise me if the relationship has since soured even further.
> 
> All that said, my point was that the one judo school I've trained in does not have the issues that you're claiming, and at the time was purely judo. Offered as a contrast.



Understood. My point is that someone  attending a Judo dojo is more likely not going to be offered what you were offered at this more eclectic school. Especially a IJF affiliated dojo that actively competes. The fact that they don’t even feel that they’re offering Judo anymore is also quite telling.

Meanwhile, pretty much every Bjj school is going to be offering leg locks, shoulder locks, wrist locks, leg grabs, nogi, and other stuff not allowed or practiced in modern Judo. The average Bjj practitioner is getting a more holistic  grappling experience than the average Judoka.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Understood. My point is that someone  attending a Judo dojo is more likely not going to be offered what you were offered at this more eclectic school. Especially a IJF affiliated dojo that actively competes. The fact that they don’t even feel that they’re offering Judo anymore is also quite telling.
> 
> Meanwhile, pretty much every Bjj school is going to be offering leg locks, shoulder locks, wrist locks, leg grabs, nogi, and other stuff not allowed or practiced in modern Judo. The average Bjj practitioner is getting a more holistic  grappling experience than the average Judoka.


Contrariwise, a prospective BJJ student is much more likely to encounter a school which devotes a grossly inadequate percentage of time to training takedowns. 

Fortunately, that isn't universal. The classes I teach are 50% standup and 50% groundwork and there are plenty of other BJJ instructors who do an excellent job of covering the standup portion of the art. But there are also many BJJ schools which spend 90-95% of their time training groundwork. Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting, 5-10 % of training time is just not enough for the average student to achieve competence in a reasonable length of time.

Once you factor in all those schools which spend most of their time on the ground, I'm not sure how to rate the holistic grappling experience of the average BJJ practitioner.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Ten years ago I would say that a black belt in Judo would be about a mid to upper level blue belt in Bjj in terms of ground fighting skill. Now I would say they would be an upper tier white belt or lower.


I haven't visited enough Judo schools to feel comfortable judging what the average skill level of a black belt across the Judo community would be. (Especially since many of the Judo instructors I've worked with have also cross-trained in BJJ.)

I will say that I've encountered Judo black belts whose ground skills ranged anywhere from BJJ one-stripe white belt all the way up to BJJ serious competitive black belt.

I suspect this isn't just a matter of the time devoted to groundwork in a given school, but also the competitive style of the individual judoka. A judoka who doesn't want to spend time becoming expert on the ground can just learn how to turtle up and stall for a short time until the ref stands them up in competition. On the other hand, a judoka who does want to win fights on the ground has to get really, really good at transitioning from a throw into a fast, precise attack against a defensive opponent in order to get the win before the ref stands them up. I've got a lot of respect for the judoka who have developed that kind of skill.


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## drop bear (Dec 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> The thing is that wrestling and Bjj compliment each other quite well and cover each other’s flaws. Wrestling covers BJJ’s standup and top game, and Bjj covers Wrestling’s bottom game and submissions. Put them together and you have modern submission grappling that is constantly evolving and often times still referred to as Bjj. This occurred because (especially in the states) Bjj embraced wrestling while Judo largely ran from it. So former collegiate and high school wrestlers could continue grappling in Bjj competitions and MMA. As the years go on, you’re seeing more and more Bjj black belts with a heavy wrestling background.
> 
> Bjj simply has the advantage that pretty anything goes grappling-wise in a Bjj gym. If it works, it will be considered Bjj, despite where it came from.



But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.


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## Hanzou (Dec 20, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Contrariwise, a prospective BJJ student is much more likely to encounter a school which devotes a grossly inadequate percentage of time to training takedowns.
> 
> Fortunately, that isn't universal. The classes I teach are 50% standup and 50% groundwork and there are plenty of other BJJ instructors who do an excellent job of covering the standup portion of the art. But there are also many BJJ schools which spend 90-95% of their time training groundwork. Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting, 5-10 % of training time is just not enough for the average student to achieve competence in a reasonable length of time.
> 
> Once you factor in all those schools which spend most of their time on the ground, I'm not sure how to rate the holistic grappling experience of the average BJJ practitioner.



Inadequate time on throws and takedowns is a vague measure though. There’s a difference between an opinion of the appropriate amount of time spent on an aspect of training, and a system not teaching the aspect at all.


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## Hanzou (Dec 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.



There is some self defense value in the more competitive side of Bjj. Obviously you’re going to have to modify what you’re learning for street purposes, just like Wrestling, Judo, MMA, or anything else. Bjj isn’t unique in that regard.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 20, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Given that throws and takedowns are some of the most demanding aspects of fighting,


I believe the most demanding aspect of fighting is to deal with someone who tries to knock your head off. IMO, most of the BJJ school just don't train the fists flying situation enough.

You may not want to train your striking skill to be as good as a boxer has. But at least you want to train anti-striking skill so you won't be knocked down by a striker.

What kind of anti-striking skill does a BJJ school train?


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## Hanzou (Dec 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe the most demanding aspect of fighting is to deal with someone who tries to knock your head off. IMO, most of the BJJ school just don't train the fists flying situation enough.
> 
> You may not want to train your striking skill to be as good as a boxer has. But at least you want to train anti-striking skill so you won't be knocked down by a striker.
> 
> What kind of anti-striking skill does a BJJ school train?



That sort of training is rather prevalent in Gracie schools. Especially Relson, Rickson, and Rorian’s lines of Gjj. You shouldn’t have a problem finding that sort of stuff even on YouTube. They base a lot of their marketing around that sort of thing.

Heck, just look at the first UFCs. That’s a pretty good example of Bjj dealing with striking.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 21, 2022)

Nice BJJ example from "da streetz". Guard passing is pure BJJ:

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/fightporn/comments/zr2886


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## Hanzou (Dec 21, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> Nice BJJ example from "da streetz". Guard passing is pure BJJ:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/fightporn/comments/zr2886



There’s examples of this all over the place. Bjj simply works in a fight. Which is why it’s been a mainstay of MMA and self defense training for decades.


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## Anarax (Dec 23, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Of course you have....
> 
> Listen, saying that Judo is a more complete system because you supposedly had some Judo guru in his garage teach you "teh secret sauce" doesn't make Judo a more complete grappling system. The simple reality is that if the average person goes to the average Judo dojo, they won't be getting a complete grappling system compared to what they'd get at the average BJJ school.
> 
> Those are simply the facts.


My instructor is a wealth of knowledge and experience, I'm very fortunate to have him as my teacher. He knows an entire network of old school Judo instructors that teach the same non-Olympic style, many of which also have black belts in bjj.

Having more experience with BJJ than Judo, I still acknowledge the completeness that Judo has compared to BJJ. Judo blends near seamlessly with my Karate, FMA and Kickboxing background/training. The setups for Judo techniques, for the most part, are already there from a standing position and I haven't had to modify Judo much to incorporate it into my training. BJJ on the other hand *mostly* emphasizes the ground. As Tony has mentioned, each BJJ school is a little different on emphasis, but you'll be hard pressed to find one that focuses more on standup than your average Judo dojo. This isn't a Judo vs BJJ case, but it is an objective assessment of how non-olympic Judo covers more elements of grappling than your average BJJ school. Please feel free to watch the video of Travis Stevens(black belt in both Judo and BJJ) explaining the advantages of both below. Enjoy!!!


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## Anarax (Dec 23, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The really weird part about judo throws vs wrestling throws is wrestling does judo throws.


You beat me to it. Here are some other examples as well


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## Ivan (Dec 24, 2022)

Zombocalypse said:


> Title.
> 
> I find Judo and boxing to be much more fashionable for me but... I mean, if it's common knowledge that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best, then I may as well sign up for it in the one close to my home. The dojo is literally walking distance for me.
> 
> ...


There is no "best" realistically, there is only what works best for you. If you are short and stubby, you'd have much better luck grabbing someone and taking them down than outboxing them. I've also found hip throws in Judo tend to be easier if your opponents are taller than you. In contrast, people with longer limbs are much better suited to striking due to being able to stay safe at range. 
Regardless, I would advise you to consider, that high-level Judo and high-level BJJ are very similar. A good Judoka is well-versed in newaza, and a good Jiujitsu practitioner is skilled with throws and takedowns. Whether you choose Judo or BJJ, your destination remains the same, albeit, your journey toward it and the eccentricities of your individual style will differ.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But it also means you could be sitting down and doing bolos all the time. Which may not be the crunchy self defence style of BJJ you are looking for.



Hi Drop Bear, 

When I read "Bolos" I first thought of the weapon used in the Philippines. 
I then immediately thought of "Be 'On-the' Look Out" for --- 

 
I guess I could use some more rounding to this point.


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## drop bear (Dec 24, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Drop Bear,
> 
> When I read "Bolos" I first thought of the weapon used in the Philippines.
> I then immediately thought of "Be 'On-the' Look Out" for ---
> ...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 25, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Drop Bear,
> 
> When I read "Bolos" I first thought of the weapon used in the Philippines.
> I then immediately thought of "Be 'On-the' Look Out" for ---
> ...


He means that he isn’t a foreplay kind of guy. Just kidding @drop bear


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