# Declining standards? Or resisting change?



## Anuka (Nov 2, 2015)

Last year we started implementing colored sashes, and it was fine. Lately though, a couple of students have in two months been promoted over students who have been attending regularly for nearly a year. A few of the other lower level students are becoming discouraged, and to be perfectly honest I am as well. They say they'll be testing to chum kiu in 3 months, but the fastest anyone else has gotten to that level was 2 years. What's more is that one of these people has developed an ego, and has been impatient and short with other students (although nobody ranking above him). I have never questioned my instructor, but I am starting to lose faith in the integrity of my school. And to be honest, I can't tell if I am just needlessly bitter. How do I address this? Any advice is greatly appreciated.


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## Danny T (Nov 2, 2015)

Do the colored sashes make anyone's skills and abilities better?
Does anyone receiving a sash considered higher level than yours diminish your skills and abilities?
Does you getting a different colored sash increase your skills and abilities?
Keep training and compare yourself to yourself not others. It isn't about the color of the sash.
Have you spoken to your instructor about what you need to do to grow and advance in your skills and abilities?


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## Phobius (Nov 3, 2015)

I agree with above, since the sashes are an implementation of your club they hold little value. In some cases I have also noticed that those who boast the most and wants to achieve a higher rank above the rest often find themselves alone and bored in the end. Most often, but not always, those people quit to move on to other pastures way before their skills were truly set.

Strive to be better than you were yesterday every day, all else is just gonna keep you behind the others.

And finally, that guy with an ego. Some has it, a few drops it eventually and some don´t. Just dont let it get to you, often also an ego gets in the way of learning from your misstakes. If he keeps training against people he feels beneath himself how may he learn anything at all?


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Do the colored sashes make anyone's skills and abilities better?
> Does anyone receiving a sash considered higher level than yours diminish your skills and abilities?
> Does you getting a different colored sash increase your skills and abilities?
> Keep training and compare yourself to yourself not others. It isn't about the color of the sash.
> Have you spoken to your instructor about what you need to do to grow and advance in your skills and abilities?



You make some solid points. It's easy to forget that the sashes only hold the value we give them. I have not asked my instructor about what I need to grow, I just train like normal. I suppose I was just bitter that some are held to different standards, even if it's not directly impacting me .


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

Phobius said:


> I agree with above, since the sashes are an implementation of your club they hold little value. In some cases I have also noticed that those who boast the most and wants to achieve a higher rank above the rest often find themselves alone and bored in the end. Most often, but not always, those people quit to move on to other pastures way before their skills were truly set.
> 
> Strive to be better than you were yesterday every day, all else is just gonna keep you behind the others.
> 
> And finally, that guy with an ego. Some has it, a few drops it eventually and some don´t. Just dont let it get to you, often also an ego gets in the way of learning from your misstakes. If he keeps training against people he feels beneath himself how may he learn anything at all?



Thank you. I will try to keep that in mind (the last part especially). I also realized I have a bias against him because one of the people he is rude to is my wife. Looking back to when I was fresh into kung fu, I thought I was Billy bad *** too. By comparing myself to him I must be showing my own ego. I could stand to be more humble as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Lately though, a couple of students have in two months been promoted over students who have been attending regularly for nearly a year.



How does this affect your training? Does it change what you need to work on or what material your instructor is teaching you?



Anuka said:


> They say they'll be testing to chum kiu in 3 months, but the fastest anyone else has gotten to that level was 2 years



Some people are (for one reason or another) able to progress through material significantly quicker than others, especially at the lower levels. Long term, what counts is consistent practice. I've met a lot of people over the years who are more talented than I am and progress more quickly while they are training. Most of them dropped out after a year or two or three. I'm still training and improving.



Anuka said:


> What's more is that one of these people has developed an ego, and has been impatient and short with other students (although nobody ranking above him).



If the guy is a jerk, he would have ended up showing his jerkitude eventually regardless. Getting promoted might have just revealed it a bit earlier.



Anuka said:


> I have never questioned my instructor, but I am starting to lose faith in the integrity of my school.



Is the integrity of the school based on everybody being promoted in the same amount of time or on the instructor giving you good instruction?


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How does this affect your training? Does it change what you need to work on or what material your instructor is teaching you?
> 
> 
> Is the integrity of the school based on everybody being promoted in the same amount of time or on the instructor giving you good instruction?



I suppose it doesn't really affect my training, I may just be bitter. As far as the integrity goes, I do still believe in my instructor and my training, it just feels like the standards are declining and my school is becoming a belt farm. I feel this way because these guys don't have as good of structure, relaxation and form as some of the others, but they spend a lot of money at the school.


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your response and questions. After seeing it all layed out in writing, I am starting to feel a bit childish. You guys have reminded me that I am not free of ego, and I should focus inwardly.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> I suppose it doesn't really affect my training, I may just be bitter. As far as the integrity goes, I do still believe in my instructor and my training, it just feels like the standards are declining and my school is becoming a belt farm. I feel this way because these guys don't have as good of structure, relaxation and form as some of the others, but they spend a lot of money at the school.


If you don't think the guys being promoted quickly are as skilled as the folks they are being promoted over then there are a couple of possibilities:

1) Your evaluation is incorrect. You are judging their technique from a beginner's perspective and you instructor has a more advanced viewpoint which allows him to see that these people are getting something that you aren't.

2) Your evaluation is correct. Their technique isn't that good and they are being promoted based on other factors (friendship with the instructor, money, whatever). In that case, you know that the rank your instructor hands out isn't that meaningful because he isn't applying consistent standards. In that case, there's no point in you worrying about achieving rank under your instructor since you don't know what it would mean. Best to just focus on learning the material as best you can for its own sake. Hey ... isn't that what you should be doing anyway?


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## Danny T (Nov 3, 2015)

The thing about sashes and belts is that for some reason people tend to focus on them as a level of prestige when it is only about one's knowledge, skill and ability in reference to the schools curriculum and/or standards. Or should be anyway. Does that really mean anything?  Doesn't matter what kind of uniform one wears or color of the sash/belt what matters is increasing and honing your knowledge, your skills, your abilities. Not compared to someone else but compared to yourself. Finally if you are completely honest with yourself if everyone were to take off their uniforms/sashes and then just train and practice everyone will know in a very short time who has the greater knowledge, the greater skills, and who is working the hardest to better theirs. Train with an openness to learn, be the most awesome training partner on the floor, and humbly practice to the best of your ability.


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## GiYu - Todd (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> I also realized I have a bias against him because one of the people he is rude to is my wife.


 If he's being rude or egotistical to people (and your wife), you should address this with him and tell him you don't appreciate his behavior.  Perhaps he's not mature enough to realize how he's behaving.  This is the type of thing that will quietly drive lots of good students away and hurt the training environment of the school. 
If his ego is too big for this, then talk with your instructor.  I doubt he wants to lose students, and should hopefully take steps to maintain some traquility.
Alternatively, if you are more skilled than him, you can give him a little pursuation on the mats.  Often, putting a bully in his place will cause his attitude to change, or make him leave.  I've only encountered one person I needed to do this with... and now he is much nicer to everyone, especially me.


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

I've decided it may just be best to remove myself from the situation and find a new place to train. I don't want to be bitter anymore, and I only have a few months left on my contract anyway.


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## geezer (Nov 3, 2015)

Sounds like you need a change. Will you be trying to find another WC instructor, or do you want to try a different art?


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

geezer said:


> Sounds like you need a change. Will you be trying to find another WC instructor, or do you want to try a different art?



That is a tough question. I really enjoy WC and I have spent a few years practicing. If I start at a new school, I may have to start all over, so I'm not closed to trying something new.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Last year we started implementing colored sashes, and it was fine. Lately though, a couple of students have in two months been promoted over students who have been attending regularly for nearly a year. A few of the other lower level students are becoming discouraged, and to be perfectly honest I am as well. They say they'll be testing to chum kiu in 3 months, but the fastest anyone else has gotten to that level was 2 years. What's more is that one of these people has developed an ego, and has been impatient and short with other students (although nobody ranking above him). I have never questioned my instructor, but I am starting to lose faith in the integrity of my school. And to be honest, I can't tell if I am just needlessly bitter. How do I address this? Any advice is greatly appreciated.


It's not the school or your instructor, it's the belt system.   The problems that you are seeing are common with a belted system. You aren't bitter, you are just focusing on the wrong thing.  Forget the belt, forget the promotion and concentrate on yourself and your development. In kung fu colored belts and sashes don't mean anything.   Your school probably started using colored sashes because it attracts people who only care about the color belt system.

Most kung fu school do this because of financial reasons.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> The thing about sashes and belts is that for some reason people tend to focus on them as a level of prestige when it is only about one's knowledge, skill and ability in reference to the schools curriculum and/or standards. Or should be anyway. Does that really mean anything?  Doesn't matter what kind of uniform one wears or color of the sash/belt what matters is increasing and honing your knowledge, your skills, your abilities. Not compared to someone else but compared to yourself. Finally if you are completely honest with yourself if everyone were to take off their uniforms/sashes and then just train and practice everyone will know in a very short time who has the greater knowledge, the greater skills, and who is working the hardest to better theirs. Train with an openness to learn, be the most awesome training partner on the floor, and humbly practice to the best of your ability.


Exactly correct.  I used to think highly of black belts as level of skill in the past but now they have no meaning to me.  I don't know how to take it when people say that they are a black belt, because a black belt has no meaning for me in terms of black belt = skill level.  When people tell me this, I don't know if I should be happy for them or that it's a big achievement for them.  I'm so glad that my school didn't bend to the belted system.


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## Marnetmar (Nov 3, 2015)

IMO belt/sash systems are archaic and should be abandoned rather than tacked on if TMAs want to have any hope of evolving.



Anuka said:


> I've decided it may just be best to remove myself from the situation and find a new place to train. I don't want to be bitter anymore, and I only have a few months left on my contract anyway.





Anuka said:


> and I only have a few months left on my contract anyway.





Anuka said:


> _*contract*_



Oh boy.



Anuka said:


> That is a tough question. I really enjoy WC and I have spent a few years practicing. If I start at a new school, I may have to start all over, so I'm not closed to trying something new.



If a WC school decides to make you start all over, they're not worth bothering with unless you have a really, really low skill level or the system you practice is completely different.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> If a WC school decides to make you start all over, they're not worth bothering with unless you have a really, really low skill level or the system you practice is completely different.


  I agree.  I see this happen in some belted systems where the person is skilled in karate but because it's a different school and teacher the student has to start from the bottom.  Like you, it makes sense when the system is completely different or when the existing skill level is low.  I could go to any Jow Ga kung fu school and not start from the beginning.  I may have to learn to do certain moves differently but other than that it should almost be a continuation.  Even if the forms are different my skill set should be good enough to quickly learn a form that is different from the one I learned.


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> If a WC school decides to make you start all over, they're not worth bothering with unless you have a really, really low skill level or the system you practice is completely different.



The schools around here seem to put a lot of importance on lineage. A couple years ago my instructor moved away and the schools I called at that time were pretty sure I'd have to relearn my form.


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## Eric_H (Nov 3, 2015)

@Marnetmar - contracts are a reality of MA business, as long as there is a reasonable/sane way out of it, there's nothing wrong with them.

To the OP - have you considered your teacher's point of view? How well is the school doing overall? How many new students come in every month? It may be he needed to change because the way he was training people made it financially unsustainable. It's easy to criticize from your standpoint, and I did the same before I understood the reality of running a MA school. But Sifu has to eat too, y'know?

That said, if it bothers you, you are a customer and have the right to vote with your dollars. The world is full of great schools and teachers. Go find one if your current cup of tea tastes bad - maybe someone here can even give a recommendation or introduction?


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## geezer (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> The schools around here seem to put a lot of importance on lineage. A couple years ago my instructor moved away and the schools I called at that time were pretty sure I'd have to relearn my form.



Yeah, you'd have to learn their forms, but since WC has comparatively short forms and there's probably only minor differences (honestly speaking) you might actually enjoy learning new variations. It really depends on the instructor. My old association basically held that their version was right and everybody else was wrong, so you started over at the beginning. But get real. If you get a guy that's already pretty good, are you going to knock him back to step 1, or work out a program that helps him  efficiently transition to your lineage?

Yeah, I know a former kung fu brother of mine who insists that everybody starts over from scratch. I disagree. Sure, I make everybody learn our drills and curriculum, but I will also absolutely respect their experience and build on it. In fact, I'd probably take them aside from time to time and pick their brains to see what I could learn about their lineage. I'm funny that way.

Now if you can't stay with your current instructor, and can't find another WC instructor who will help you along, then try something else that interests you. Personally, I've really enjoyed my time in Escrima. Not your cup of tea? How about BJJ? I regret not training in grappling when I was younger. Also, HEMA looks fun to me. The world today has so much cool stuff! Good luck and keep us posted.


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## yak sao (Nov 3, 2015)

This place is a great resource. Where are you located? One of us may be able to point you in a good direction


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## Anuka (Nov 3, 2015)

yak sao said:


> This place is a great resource. Where are you located? One of us may be able to point you in a good direction



I am in Denver. I have decided to continue attending regularly for the duration of my contract, and choose my best coarse of action then. Hopefully my ill feelings will subside by then.


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## The Great Gigsy (Nov 3, 2015)

Anuka said:


> I am in Denver. I have decided to continue attending regularly for the duration of my contract, and choose my best coarse of action then. Hopefully my ill feelings will subside by then.


JKD Colorado is pretty good group, if at the end of your contract you feel the same way.


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## GiYu - Todd (Nov 4, 2015)

Anuka said:


> I've decided it may just be best to remove myself from the situation and find a new place to train. I don't want to be bitter anymore, and I only have a few months left on my contract anyway.


Sounds reasonable if you're not happy there.  MA should be something you enjoy.  I hope you find someplace that meets your needs.


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## GiYu - Todd (Nov 4, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Exactly correct. I used to think highly of black belts as level of skill in the past but now they have no meaning to me. I don't know how to take it when people say that they are a black belt, because a black belt has no meaning for me in terms of black belt = skill level. When people tell me this, I don't know if I should be happy for them or that it's a big achievement for them. I'm so glad that my school didn't bend to the belted system.


For the most part, I feel the same.  I've seen black belts at some schools that are barely competent, and I've seen much lower belts at other schools who are highly skilled.  If someone tells me they're a black belt, I understand that to mean "I've demonstrated a certain proficiency in the basic techniques and movements for my art". 
Our school looks at it that you are not really a true student until you reach shodan, at which point you finally have mastered the basics enough that you are able to start learning the techniques properly.  Prior to that, you are basically trying out to become a "student".  (I'm oversimplifying a bit, but I think this is a healthy attitude).


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## Bkouba (Nov 4, 2015)

Anuka said:


> Thanks everyone for your response and questions. After seeing it all layed out in writing, I am starting to feel a bit childish. You guys have reminded me that I am not free of ego, and I should focus inwardly.


Don't beat yourself up, we all go through the same thing one way or another. All the best with your training.


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## Eric_H (Nov 5, 2015)

Anuka said:


> I am in Denver. I have decided to continue attending regularly for the duration of my contract, and choose my best coarse of action then. Hopefully my ill feelings will subside by then.



Have a former Sihing down in Colrado Springs who is looking for partners and I have heard of a Sifu Shien who had a good rep for Mizhong Quan - you've got options man. Best of luck.


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## LFJ (Nov 9, 2015)

geezer said:


> My old association basically held that their version was right and everybody else was wrong, so you started over at the beginning. But get real. If you get a guy that's already pretty good, are you going to knock him back to step 1, or work out a program that helps him  efficiently transition to your lineage?



Building on someone's experience sounds nice, but that's how things get muddled between different systems.

The most efficient way to transition someone to your new lineage is to build in them an understanding of the entire system from the ground up. This way no assumptions are made and blanks filled in on one's own with their previous interpretations that need to be realized and undone later on, because unwittingly mixing contradicting ideas may very likely result in a mess that doesn't work and it will be difficult to determine why exactly it fails if one doesn't have a clear understanding of one system from the ground up. 

If their previous training has made them more coordinated, athletic, and a faster learner of these things, it probably won't take very long to get them on the right track according to your system. Gotta look at the goal in the long run, not just whether or not you're showing respect to someone's previous experience by letting them jump in the middle. I've seen that lead nowhere too many times.


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## geezer (Nov 9, 2015)

LFJ said:


> The most efficient way to transition someone *to your new lineage* is to build in them an understanding of the entire system from the ground up.



Yeah, that's how it was for me when I _switched lineages_ back in 1980. And it was necessary since there were significant differences in things as fundamental as stance, steps and structure.

On the other hand, the instructor I referred to in a previous post took one of our former students and made him start over even though_ we all come from the same lineage _but split away to form a different association.

In fact the student who had to start over had been tested by the same master level instructor that had taught advanced seminars at  the other guy's school up until the organizational split. In other words the student was bearing the brunt of another stupid Wing Chun political tiff.

I guess I would have to look at previous experience on a case by case basis.


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## Danny T (Nov 9, 2015)

geezer said:


> I guess I would have to look at previous experience on a case by case basis.


Yeap, case by case basis. Every individual is different.


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