# Koryukai



## rdonovan1 (Aug 25, 2009)

I just thought that I would share with everyone the truth behind the Koryukai that they mention in the movie 'BloodSport'.

According to Wikipedia the Koryukai was a real orgainization that was founded in 1901 but was later disbanded in 1961.

Unlike the movie though they did not have anything to do with testing the fighting skills of it's members.

If anyone is interested in learning more about who they really were and what they really did you can look them up for yourselve's on the internet. 

I looked it up on google under the name of Black Dragon Society and that is what I came up with.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 26, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> If anyone is interested in learning more about who they really were and what they really did you can look them up for yourselve's on the internet.



Good thing the internet never lies. Just like the newspapers.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 26, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Good thing the internet never lies. Just like the newspapers.


 
I might have misspelled the Japanese name, but it is still the same society. My spelling seems to have gone downhill while I was an over the road truck driver and apparently it needs a little bit of work.

If you thought that was interesting, then check out the recent article that I posted related to a robbery that happened in L.A. It's the kind of thing that tends to make you sit up and take notice of what is going on around you with society and with the Internet in general.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 26, 2009)

&#40658;&#40845;&#20250; Koku(black) Ryu(dragon) Kai(organization/society)=Kokuryukai

I always thought of it as some sort of Yakuza. What does this have to do with Ninjutsu?


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> &#40658;&#40845;&#20250; Koku(black) Ryu(dragon) Kai(organization/society)=Kokuryukai
> 
> I always thought of it as some sort of Yakuza. What does this have to do with Ninjutsu?


 
It has a lot to do with it because Frank Dux claimed to have been trained by Senzo Tanaka in ninjutsu and he claimed that he fought in the kumite and won. 

The movie that is supposedly based on his real life claims that the Kokuryukai organized the kumite. 

I don't know if they threw that in the movie just to make it sound better or not or as to whether Frank Dux ever claimed that it was organized by the Kokuryukai, but it would be interesting to find out because if he ever does or did make any statement like that, then this will surely blow his story about him being trained in ninjutsu clean apart as the KoKuryukai could not have organized any fights after 1961.

Like I said if anyone is really interested then can look it up on the internet. Maybe they might find something more that can either deny or prove his claims. As I said in another thread I personally think his claims are false all the way around and that he made the whole thing up.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2009)

Hi rdonovan1,

No.

This has been discussed thoroughly again and again, here and everywhere else. Without fraudbusting, if I can, there is no basis in any records, history, evidence, peoples, demonstrations, claims, or any other form, of anything even resembling reality in Dux's "version" of things. I wouldn't bring such things up as "facts", you'll probably just get laughed off the page. Friendly words here. As I said before, you do not have the requisite knowledge to be posting any kind of facts in regard to Ninjutsu in particular, but really martial arts in general from everything you have posted so far. I recommend (once again) that, if you want to know about Ninjutsu as it has survived to today, get a teacher. And to be sure they are legit, choose from the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan. There are other legit split-off organisations, but it is safer to stick with the Big 3.

And stick to asking questions. But be willing to recieve the answers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 26, 2009)

It is doutful that the Kokuryukai staged kumite like death matches. They are like Yakuza but more of a political movement seems there is a thin line between politics,Yakuza and religion as seen with the different new age sects in Japan becoming political organizations. 

The Yakuza do have dealings in certain sports Sumo was in the news of Japan recently concerning Yakuza. 

Bloodsport is a movie full of oddities and doubtful claims.

As for Frank Dux there is a member here who actually trains with him. He enjoys the training. Dux mentions training with Tanaka in Koga Yamabushi ninjutsu. However there is no such name because it is incorrect wording.
A Yamabushi school would be called ryu for exampleake ryu or the school of Dake. Dake ryu is a legit school of Yamabushi kagura(sacred dance) it would be incorrect to call it Dake Yamabushi.

But this is boarding on fraudbusting and there is enough evidence out there to draw your own conclusion on the subject. 

And the Kokuryukai most likely had nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It had espionage and all that but I don't think it was Ninjutsu it was mostly basic networking used in the time period of the Sino-Japanese war so how much of it if any was Ninjutsu and where they recieved the information is anyone's guess but I doubt it came from some secret ninja clan and most likely came from some form of military training in fact look at Akashi Motojiro.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 26, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> It is doutful that the Kokuryukai staged kumite like death matches. They are like Yakuza but more of a political movement seems there is a thin line between politics,Yakuza and religion as seen with the different new age sects in Japan becoming political organizations.
> 
> The Yakuza do have dealings in certain sports Sumo was in the news of Japan recently concerning Yakuza.
> 
> ...


 
I think that you are right and I personally think that they probably just used the name to make the movie more appealing to the movie going public. Nothing more than a sales and marketing gimmick employed by Hollywood.


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## tenzen (Aug 26, 2009)

apparently dux was not his only student. dux had a training partner, who changed his name later to harunaka hoshino. funny how one says its koga the other says its fuma. oh by the way hoshino is the soke of fuma ryu ninjutsu. mostly found in england only he lives in san fransisco. he is chinese by the way. draw your own conclusions. i really don't care personally because i would never train with them. but hoshino was part of the spear head of the ninja boom during the eighties. he was in the majority of the ninja magazines. thought i would throw this out to see what comes back on it.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 26, 2009)

Supposedly Tadashi Yamashita is a ninja master as well, but from what I understand the only one that is truly recognized as being any sort of ninja master is Masaaki Hatsumi. 

All the rest are reported to be nothing more than self pro-claimed ninja masters with no documentation or support to back up any of their claims.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 26, 2009)

Dean does a great job here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai8Tt8xcoF8&feature=related
Some videos of Frank Dux. IMO Dux has some  skill if he just would call it something else he could be a decent martial artist. 

Thats the thing some of the Kouga neo ninjutsu are really not bad martial artist they have some skills(some are just awful and painful to watch) the problem lays in the whole we are ninja thing and the constant oddities and questionable claims. I tend to think of it as Cowboys. You have legit historians who show you how things were done historically and you have the role players who shoot cap guns and dress up like Kevin Costner




 
vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgVZIkazXY&feature=related

Now picture them all Japanese and you get the exact reversal thing with people claiming to be ninjas.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (Aug 27, 2009)

Yeah anything with Frank Dux you take it to the fiction section. The man had Soldier of Fortune Magazine spotlight his fraudulent use of military decorations, and his wild claims of being a C.I.A. Officer when he was a Motor Transport Reserve Marine. 
But the Kokuryukai was a Japanese Nationalist organization that worked to expand the Japanese Empire. They did use espionage tactics in China, Korea and other Southeast Asian countries. Now I personally always wondered and this is just me pondering. But I always wondered if Takamatsu Sensei was affiliated with the Kokuryukai being that he spent a considerable time in China. Probably not but who knows? Just a thought though. But with that Dux guy getting a movie made on his fictional life...I wish someone could do is make a accurate movie on the life of Takamatsu Sensei. That would be a great tribute to a great martial arts Master. We got all these crazy ninja movies that stereotype what ninjutsu is. It would be nice to see a movie showing the true essence of ninjutsu of the last Ninja Master O'Sensei Takamatsu....


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 27, 2009)

I read that Takamatsu mainly went to China because he wanted to test his fighting skills, and going to China enabled him to do just that.

On one hand it would be nice to have a movie based on Takamatsu sensei, but otoh, due to what the general public wants, it would probably not show any real skill, but mainly consists of lots of spinning back kicks and other showy crap.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 10, 2009)

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Yeah anything with Frank Dux you take it to the fiction section. The man had Soldier of Fortune Magazine spotlight his fraudulent use of military decorations, and his wild claims of being a C.I.A. Officer when he was a Motor Transport Reserve Marine.
> But the Kokuryukai was a Japanese Nationalist organization that worked to expand the Japanese Empire. They did use espionage tactics in China, Korea and other Southeast Asian countries. Now I personally always wondered and this is just me pondering. But I always wondered if Takamatsu Sensei was affiliated with the Kokuryukai being that he spent a considerable time in China. Probably not but who knows? Just a thought though. But with that Dux guy getting a movie made on his fictional life...I wish someone could do is make a accurate movie on the life of Takamatsu Sensei. That would be a great tribute to a great martial arts Master. We got all these crazy ninja movies that stereotype what ninjutsu is. It would be nice to see a movie showing the true essence of ninjutsu of the last Ninja Master O'Sensei Takamatsu....


 
First, Soldier of Fortune's stuff was thrown out of court. Second, that's Fraudbusting. Third, I've seen his DD214 and his discharge papers. He was never a reservist, and he was in fact an intel specialist. 

My guess is you've never actually seen personally ANY of the documents in question. 

I have. Still I keep quiet. Frankly, you should too, as I'm guessing you don't even have real research to back it up (as in PRIMARY sources).


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## yorkshirelad (Sep 11, 2009)

I think Dana White bought the Koryukai after he did the deal with Pride.:rofl:


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 11, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> It has a lot to do with it because Frank Dux claimed to have been trained by Senzo Tanaka in ninjutsu and he claimed that he fought in the kumite and won.
> 
> The movie that is supposedly based on his real life claims that the Kokuryukai organized the kumite.
> 
> ...


 
Wikipedia says they reconstituted as the Black Dragon Club in 1961. I'm loathe to quote wikipedia, but if it's true, wouldn't that make sense that it _could _have organized it?


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Wikipedia says they reconstituted as the Black Dragon Club in 1961. I'm loathe to quote wikipedia, but if it's true, wouldn't that make sense that it _could _have organized it?


 

The wiki cites this book as the source of that information. Brian Victoria's reputation in regards to scholarship on Zen is fairly decent, especially his two books _Zen War Stories,_ and _Zen Goes to War_, but I have to wonder about _his_ source, since it appears to be the only place-to my knowledge- this is mentioned, and the book itself (_Zen War Stories_) is fairly controversial........a quick look into the book reveals that not much mention is made of the Balck Dragon Society (it appears in 4 places, including 2 index entries referencing the other 2) and, while it does say that there was a Black Dragon Club formed in 1961, it has no footnotes, and I don't exactly have time for an item by item perusal of the bibliography, so there's no telling where the author got that information....


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 11, 2009)

Personally, I think it was the Black Dragon Fighting Society that put on the Kumite. They've been around long enough to do it and had sufficient motivation, and most people I've talked to who actually saw the events were BDFS.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 11, 2009)

elder999 said:


> The wiki cites this book as the source of that information. Brian Victoria's reputation in regards to scholarship on Zen is fairly decent, especially his two books _Zen War Stories,_ and _Zen Goes to War_, but I have to wonder about _his_ source, since it appears to be the only place-to my knowledge- this is mentioned.


 
Part of why I'm loathe to quote wiki. I like primary sources as much as possible.


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Personally, I think it was the Black Dragon Fighting Society that put on the Kumite. They've been around long enough to do it and had sufficient motivation, and most people I've talked to who actually saw the events were BDFS.


 

You mean, the outfit run by  this guy? :lfao:


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## elder999 (Sep 11, 2009)

And,seriously, in the original article in Black Belt Magazine, there was no reference to any "Black Dragon Fighting Society," it was the _International Fighting Arts Association_.

You can read that article, from Issue #91, Nov. 1980, on page 28,  here


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## kaizasosei (Sep 12, 2009)

One of the many ultra-nationalist organizations with policies of expansion.  The black dragon is also the name of the amur river, the area where many of the operations were carried out.  There were fights and the japanese in the war with russia suffered heavy losses, especially because mongol forces sided against japan.


j


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2009)

elder999 said:


> And,seriously, in the original article in Black Belt Magazine, there was no reference to any "Black Dragon Fighting Society," it was the _International Fighting Arts Association_.
> 
> You can read that article, from Issue #91, Nov. 1980, on page 28, here


 
I've read it. But seeing as the name is not traceable to anything else at all, I'm led to believe it was a cover business for someone else.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2009)

elder999 said:


> You mean, the outfit run by this guy? :lfao:


 
It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.


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## elder999 (Sep 12, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> I've read it. But seeing as the name is not traceable to anything else at all, I'm led to believe it was a cover business for someone else.


 
I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in _English_!) though......



Josh Oakley said:


> It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.


 

I was just wondering if you meant that it was the _Black Dragon Fighting Society_ founded entirely by the infamous "Count Dante," John Keehan.....



Josh Oakley said:


> It was kinda hard to look cool in the 70's, that's for sure.


 
I dunno.Bruce Lee looked pretty cool. Walt Frazier looked pretty cool. Jim Kelly looked pretty cool. A lot of guys looked pretty cool, heck, I thought *I *looked pretty cool, and _*you* weren't even a twinkle in your mom's eye, yet_ so how would you know? :lfao:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Sep 12, 2009)

How come the story keeps changing?

 First we had Koku ryu kai then it goes into Black Dragon fighting society then it goes into I.F.A.A.?


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## elder999 (Sep 12, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> How come the story keeps changing?
> 
> First we had Koku ryu kai then it goes into Black Dragon fighting society then it goes into I.F.A.A.?


 
Actually, that _Black Belt_ story was Frank Dux's first public exposure, and the source of the "kumite" story, so the I.F.A.A. came first.


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## Kajowaraku (Sep 12, 2009)

Actually when i first saw this thread appear I thought it sounded interesting. In my book Kõryuukai reads as "old-school society" or something like that. Certainly more interesting than discussions on the possible existence of a "secret" organisation organising even more secret kumite that just happens to resemble imagery from todays collective memory like mortal combat and that motion picture. Kokuryuukai was an organisation with strictly industrial, political and military motives, although those were highly intertwined, even than. I'm sure some people at some time organised some cruel highly secret kumite, but let's be honest; how are we ever going to get cold evidence for that, apart from the bold assertions of man dressing like a videogamecharacter claiming to be a secret ninjamaster?

Smell the coffee and wake up people.


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## elder999 (Sep 12, 2009)

Kajowaraku said:


> Smell the coffee and wake up people.


 

Actually, that's _wake up and smell the coffee._ :lol:


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in _English_!) though......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I was referring to the one founded by Keehan.


Sorry, I'm sure you looked cool in the 70's by 70's standards. I have no taste for 70's style and fashion in even the slightest. But you're really playing the "whipper-snapper" card in regards to looking cool??


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I think that's a wholly unsupportable conclusion-no more than concluding that he made the whole thing up, anyway, which at least is a more logical inference......that sure is a big, fancy trophy (with engravings in _English_!) though......


 
Since when did "led to believe" become a full-blown conclusion???

AS for made up, Vic Moore claims to have seen it (consequently claims to have fought in it, and lost to Mr. Dux). Ron Pierce claims to have seen it. Gerald Okamura claims to have seen it. Irving Soto claims to have fought in it. Paola Tocha and Kurt Peterson claim to have fought in the Kumite as well. 

It brings doubt on the claim of the thing being made up.


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## elder999 (Sep 13, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Sorry, I'm sure you looked cool in the 70's by 70's standards. I have no taste for 70's style and fashion in even the slightest. But you're really playing the "whipper-snapper" card in regards to looking cool??


 
I not only looked cool, I _was_ cool. Hell, I'm still cool, and look pretty cool too!

_Whipper snapper._ :lol:


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## elder999 (Sep 13, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> . _*Irving Soto*_ claims to have fought in it.
> 
> It brings doubt on the claim of the thing being made up.


 
_He_ also claims to have won in years when Dux claims to have won, and to have won in years when, according to the Black Belt article, the kumite wouldn't have taken place. Talk about "doubt..." 

Grandmaster Irving _"Tweeta hand_  Soto :



> These are the years that Soke Grandmaster I. Soto has won the ultimate championship called the full-contact Kumite, everything goes. This is not a point tournament. This is the ultimate fighting championship open only to family members. Only the best of the best from around the world were allowed to compete, by invitation only.
> 
> 
> 1973
> ...


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

elder999 said:


> I not only looked cool, I _was_ cool. Hell, I'm still cool, and look pretty cool too!
> 
> _Whipper snapper._ :lol:


 

Point conceded. You radiate cool. And this should never be challenged.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

elder999 said:


> _He_ also claims to have won in years when Dux claims to have won, and to have won in years when, according to the Black Belt article, the kumite wouldn't have taken place. Talk about "doubt..."
> 
> Grandmaster Irving _"Tweeta hand_  Soto :
> 
> ...


 
Would it be helpful to point out that Mr. Dux claims the heaviweight title and Mr. Soto claims the middleweight title?


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

He's also shown further down the page _posing_ with Mr. Dux further down on that same page. I doubt that if Mr. Soto felt Dux's claims conflicted with his own, he would not pose in a picture with him, not to mention put that picture up on his own website.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 14, 2009)

Okay, I must be a glutton for punishment, but I can say thank you for insisting we check out that page. It showed better than we can with this martialtalk's rigid fraudbusting rules what Soto is all about... I mean, someone with that apparent "experience" constantly misusing terminology, misspelling words, using incorrect terms... and having nothing but posed photos at public events which anyone can get as evidence to back up some frankly laughable claims? Not really sure how you felt this was helping you, Josh. For it to be believed you need to have no knowledge at all of Japanese martial arts, culture, language, history... need I go on?

But to address your last post there, both are publicity seeking, both know that the only way for the other to really prove the claim false is to admit that it didn't happen in the first place. So, no, I'm not surprised here. Like attracts like, after all.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 14, 2009)

That was certainly an interesting link. Soke Professor Grandmaster Soto was a lucky man. He couldn't move 10 feet without stumbling over secret grandmasters willing to teach him. And you have to admit that winning 279 full contact matches with 279 knockouts is impressive.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I must be a glutton for punishment, but I can say thank you for insisting we check out that page. It showed better than we can with this martialtalk's rigid fraudbusting rules what Soto is all about... I mean, someone with that apparent "experience" constantly misusing terminology, misspelling words, using incorrect terms... and having nothing but posed photos at public events which anyone can get as evidence to back up some frankly laughable claims? Not really sure how you felt this was helping you, Josh. For it to be believed you need to have no knowledge at all of Japanese martial arts, culture, language, history... need I go on?
> 
> But to address your last post there, both are publicity seeking, both know that the only way for the other to really prove the claim false is to admit that it didn't happen in the first place. So, no, I'm not surprised here. Like attracts like, after all.


 
Oh, by all means, do indeed go on. And to address your second paragraph I don't buy that the ONLY way for one of them to prove the other person's claim is false is to admit it didn't happen. 

But you're right. One other guy claiming to have been witness to or have participated in the Kumite would not have helped my case at all. That's why I listed more than one. It's not when other person is making the same claim, but when a preponderance of people are making the same claims, that brings one to suspect that maybe the Kumite really did exist.


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## Kajowaraku (Sep 14, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> That was certainly an interesting link. Soke Professor Grandmaster Soto was a lucky man. He couldn't move 10 feet without stumbling over secret grandmasters willing to teach him. And you have to admit that winning 279 full contact matches with 279 knockouts is impressive.


 
Not nearly as impressive as your understanding of hinikujutsu. (and no, i'm not talking about techniques for fighting with ham)


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## EWBell (Sep 14, 2009)

Is it considered fraudbusting if I called every one of those men liars, who are only saying they witnessed the "Kumite" in order to bolster their own "Super Soaker Sokey Grandmaster" claims?  If so, then I apologize.


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Would it be helpful to point out that Mr. Dux claims the heaviweight title and Mr. Soto claims the middleweight title?


 

In the Black Belt magazine article, Mr. Dux says that the "kumite" occurs _every five years._ 

He also said that it didn't have weight classes.

'ol Tweeta-hand Soto claims to have fought in and won the "kumite" eight years in a row....

So, and I'm just asking, not doing any "fraudbusting"{mostly, since I'm from New York, have met Mr. Soto,and don't need to....}which is it, every five years, as Mr. Dux states in the article, or every year, as Mr. Soto claims on his rather busy webpage?



			
				Chris Parker said:
			
		

> Okay, I must be a glutton for punishment, but I can say thank you for insisting we check out that page. It showed better than we can with this martialtalk's rigid fraudbusting rules what Soto is all about... I mean, someone with that apparent "experience" constantly misusing terminology, misspelling words, using incorrect terms... and having nothing but posed photos at public events


 
Oh no-there's _video_ in there somewhere as well, of the illustrious doctor grandmaster professor super secret soke _Tweeta hand_ himself in action


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## yorkshirelad (Sep 14, 2009)

elder999 said:


> In the Black Belt magazine article, Mr. Dux says that the "kumite" occurs _every five years._
> 
> He also said that it didn't have weight classes.
> 
> ...


it's obvious that he turned up to fight every year and because everyone else was a no-show, he claimed the win. It's easy to win, when your opponants don't show.


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## elder999 (Sep 14, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Oh no-there's _video_ in there somewhere as well, of the illustrious doctor grandmaster professor super secret soke _Tweeta hand_ himself in action


 
Including a video interview with Tweeta-hand and the Duxter himself.....



			
				Josh Oakley said:
			
		

> Would it be helpful to point out that Mr. Dux claims the heaviweight title and Mr. Soto claims the middleweight title?


 
That's not what the Duxter says:




[yt]cvUFUNvPi0Q&feature[/yt]


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 15, 2009)

So you're really telling me that different circles can't have weight classes. Whatever. On one guy's website it says heaviweight. On another's, it says Granted. I hadn't known what Mr. Dux said on that site. Just saw that today myself. 

However, you're off base to say that the November 1980 issue has Mr. Dux saying that the Kumite happens every 5 years. The writer says "according to the whispers, the kumite happens once every 5 years." And in context, even the writer's not actually saying the kumite happens every 5 years. 

In fact, in that very article, Dux is claiming multiple weight classes and that he fought heaviweight. In addition he talks about different events in those different years.

He says:

"One year, they had a circle and you had to stay inside the circle. Another time, it was on a cone-shaped platform. One year, they did it in mud- they just had a big pit full of mud, and you fought in that mud. That's what makes it unique, because you don't have to prepare for it. You have to be knowledgeable all around."

Is this your own research or have you just been listening to the research from others. It followed the same lines and was just as spotty last time I listened to it.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 15, 2009)

EWBell said:


> Is it considered fraudbusting if I called every one of those men liars, who are only saying they witnessed the "Kumite" in order to bolster their own "Super Soaker Sokey Grandmaster" claims? If so, then I apologize.


 
Yes. It is. That's exactly what fraudbusting is, even if you were actually right. The moderators at Martial Talk can be held accountable for what we say if they leave it unchecked. Defamation can cost a lot. So if you do fraudbust, you'd better be 100% squared away on your facts. Even then, just to be safe, moderators might still not allow it.

But while I'm at it...

How is Vic Moore bolstering these supposed claims by talking about how he couldn't beat someone? This is a man with an impressive _public_ fight record. Why would he talk at length about a fight he lost in _secret?_

That just doesn't make sense!!


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## yorkshirelad (Sep 15, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> He says:
> 
> "One year, they had a circle and you had to stay inside the circle. Another time, it was on a cone-shaped platform. One year, they did it in mud- they just had a big pit full of mud, and you fought in that mud. That's what makes it unique, because you don't have to prepare for it. You have to be knowledgeable all around."
> 
> .


 I wonder if they have a unisex/inter gender event. I'd be on for that, if I had the possible chance of fighting in chocolate syrup and raspberry sauce with sprinkles....yummy


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## Chris Parker (Sep 15, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Yes. It is. That's exactly what fraudbusting is, even if you were actually right. The moderators at Martial Talk can be held accountable for what we say if they leave it unchecked. Defamation can cost a lot. So if you do fraudbust, you'd better be 100% squared away on your facts. Even then, just to be safe, moderators might still not allow it.
> 
> But while I'm at it...
> 
> ...


 
You know Josh, you're just not doing youself any favours here at all. For the record, I have attempted a number of times now to comply with your request for me to go on, but really, every time I did I went through the page in question (http://grandmasterirvingsoto.webs.com/sotobio.htm) bit by bit, and my responce would have been 5 times longer than the original page itself, it really is that inaccurate is so many different ways. If you can read, and have any discernment in your judgement at all, that much should be patently obvious, and I have no need to address it further. That said, if there is any particular point you want me to address, just ask.

But to Vic Moore. I did a search for  anything at all relating to Vic and the Kumite, and found only results that took us to a completely fanciful interview from Frank Dux, which states that Vic wasn't allowed to be involved because he was black... now, I ask you, if that is your argument ("Why would he talk about somone he couldn't beat..."), how does that allow Soto to be in? The same interciew also claims that Benny Urquidez was not allowed to be involved because he was Spanish, by the way. You can find it here: http://www.kungfucinema.com/author/nigel-clarke

So far you have not brought any evidence that actually helps you, and each time I check your references, I find that it contradicts the other conclusive evidence you have presented. As I (and others here) have said before, if you enjoy your training with Frank and get something out of it, that is great. But realise that he is treated with suspicion (to say the least) even on such a heavily moderated site as this, and his claims are regarded as below reliable. And if you are training with him, you will do well to accept this, or you are going to be upset by those who will react to your teacher in this way.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 15, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> You know Josh, you're just not doing youself any favours here at all. For the record, I have attempted a number of times now to comply with your request for me to go on, but really, every time I did I went through the page in question (http://grandmasterirvingsoto.webs.com/sotobio.htm) bit by bit, and my responce would have been 5 times longer than the original page itself, it really is that inaccurate is so many different ways. If you can read, and have any discernment in your judgement at all, that much should be patently obvious, and I have no need to address it further. That said, if there is any particular point you want me to address, just ask.
> 
> But to Vic Moore. I did a search for anything at all relating to Vic and the Kumite, and found only results that took us to a completely fanciful interview from Frank Dux, which states that Vic wasn't allowed to be involved because he was black... now, I ask you, if that is your argument ("Why would he talk about somone he couldn't beat..."), how does that allow Soto to be in? The same interciew also claims that Benny Urquidez was not allowed to be involved because he was Spanish, by the way. You can find it here: http://www.kungfucinema.com/author/nigel-clarke
> 
> So far you have not brought any evidence that actually helps you, and each time I check your references, I find that it contradicts the other conclusive evidence you have presented. As I (and others here) have said before, if you enjoy your training with Frank and get something out of it, that is great. But realise that he is treated with suspicion (to say the least) even on such a heavily moderated site as this, and his claims are regarded as below reliable. And if you are training with him, you will do well to accept this, or you are going to be upset by those who will react to your teacher in this way.


 

Actually the Moore point I'll concede. 

Fact is, though, Vic Moore does claim to have fought Mr. Dux and lost. I had assumed it was in a Kumite event. But now that you point that out, that would not make sense to be in the Kumite. 

I'll call him. see what the whole story is.


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## shadycrzy (Oct 8, 2009)

> I wish someone could do is make a accurate movie on the life of Takamatsu Sensei.


Here it is

Seriously though, a Korean pretending to be a ninja? Isn't that just trolling?


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## rdonovan1 (Oct 9, 2009)

Why would anyone want to waste their time on the martial arts when it is just easier to get a gun?

Wouldn't a gun be easier and faster?


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## Kajowaraku (Oct 9, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> Why would anyone want to waste their time on the martial arts when it is just easier to get a gun?
> 
> Wouldn't a gun be easier and faster?


 
I'm lost for words... No disrespect intended, but well,...you revive a dead and happily burried thread in a martial arts forum, just to rhetorically ask why anyone would bother with martial arts instead of getting a gun? There's a million arguments I could give you, but I simply refuse to indulge the necromantic pleasure at the base of the question. Please, register on an NRA forum or something if you feel martial arts are a waste of time.
[/rant]


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