# ATA's new identity



## hungryninja (Jul 14, 2014)

ATA (American Taekwondo Association) is now "Always Take Action" ATA Worldwide:

ATA&#39;s New Identity | The Evolution Explained - YouTube

Thoughts?


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## granfire (Jul 14, 2014)

hungryninja said:


> ATA (American Taekwondo Association) is now "Always Take Action" ATA Worldwide:
> 
> ATA&#39;s New Identity | The Evolution Explained - YouTube
> 
> Thoughts?



:lfao:

Oh the drama....who's staring in the movie?


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## IcemanSK (Jul 15, 2014)

Well, at least it's said with humility.:mst:


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## sfs982000 (Jul 15, 2014)

Well I guess someone sure earned their paycheck on that one.  Looks like I have to update my patch now.


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## Balrog (Jul 22, 2014)

It was done to unify the three branches of Songahm Taekwondo into one organization.  Not a bad thing, in my opinion.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 22, 2014)

how much money is involved by joing the  "new" ATA and how much do belt test go up


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## itsrosa82 (Jul 22, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> how much money is involved by joing the  "new" ATA and how much do belt test go up



All ATA schools are independently owned and operated. Sign up fees and belt test fees will vary by location.


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## Balrog (Jul 22, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> how much money is involved by joing the  "new" ATA and how much do belt test go up



Do you know anything at all about the ATA?  I wonder, because if you truly did, you would have realized how ridiculous that question was and you might not have posted it.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 22, 2014)

No I do not.  But I do know that when organizations change names or join together that sometimes there is a price increase in fees for the members.
I also know that most TKD organizations charge for testing and a large part of that fee goes to the organization and not to the school.
and seeing as I know nothing not being a member how about telling me about this organization.  and when did it come into being and why and who started it  and why did that person or people leave which ever TKD organization they used to belong to.    
And NO I am not asking to be a smart *** I am asking because I want to know


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## Balrog (Aug 1, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> No I do not.  But I do know that when organizations change names or join together that sometimes there is a price increase in fees for the members.
> I also know that most TKD organizations charge for testing and a large part of that fee goes to the organization and not to the school.
> and seeing as I know nothing not being a member how about telling me about this organization.  and when did it come into being and why and who started it  and why did that person or people leave which ever TKD organization they used to belong to.
> And NO I am not asking to be a smart *** I am asking because I want to know


My apologies if I came across a little harsh.  I'll do my best to answer the questions for you.

ATA was founded in 1969 by Haeng Ung Lee.  He had been sponsered to immigrate by a student of his who trained with him in Korea, Richard Reed.  Not many people know that Chuck Norris also trained with him in Korea; H. U. Lee was his first instructor.  H. U. Lee had a vision of a Taekwondo school in every city in the USA and we're still working on that.  At the time ATA was founded, he was teaching the Chang Hun forms (Chon-Ji, Dan-Gun, etc.).  He wanted to teach a more dynamic form of Taekwondo, so in 1983 he presented the first three forms of a new style called Songahm.  In 1990, he became the first Grandmaster of the organization.

Grandmaster H. U. Lee died in 2000 and Soon Ho Lee became the new Grandmaster.  He retired in 2012 and became our first Grandmaster Emiritus.  In Ho Lee was promoted to 9th Degree and became the third Grandmaster of the organization.

ATA is headquartered in Little Rock, AR.  We currently have over 2000 schools world-wide, with about 1300 of them here in the USA.  The last numbers I heard said we had nearly 500,000 active students and we are growing every day.  Each member school is individually owned and operated, so the chief instructor of the school determines the monthly dues and testing fees.

I hope this helps.  If you want more detail, let me know and I'll do my best to get it for you.


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 1, 2014)

Master Sears,  I thank you for answering my questions on the origin and history of your organization.


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## Balrog (Aug 3, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Master Sears,  I thank you for answering my questions on the origin and history of your organization.


Glad to oblige.  And again, I apologize for coming on harsh in my first response.


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## TrueJim (Aug 4, 2014)

Great info!  When you say a more "dynamic" form of Taekwondo, what does the word "dynamic" mean in this case?


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## hungryninja (Aug 4, 2014)

For more on the history of the org, you may want to read the following:
Taekwondo History, by Dr. He Young Kimm
A Killing Art: The Untold Story of Tae Kwon Do, by Alex Gillis
Both have good historical info on the ATA.


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## Tames D (Aug 4, 2014)

Balrog said:


> Do you know anything at all about the ATA? I wonder, because if you truly did, you would have realized how ridiculous that question was and you might not have posted it.



I'm glad tshadowchaser asked that "ridiculous" question, because I also didn't know anything at all about the ATA, but learned something valuable from your answer.


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## Balrog (Aug 6, 2014)

TrueJim said:


> Great info!  When you say a more "dynamic" form of Taekwondo, what does the word "dynamic" mean in this case?



Perhaps I could have phrased that better.  When you look back at Korean history, they were occupied by Japan from the early 1900s until the end of WW2.  The Japanese had a policy of killing off anyone that would or potentially could resist them, and that included a lot of the teachers of the traditional Korean martial arts, particularly Taekkyeon.  As a result, when TKD was originated, the result was a martial art that had heavy Japanese karate influence and leaned more toward hand techniques.  Grandmaster H. U. Lee was somewhat of a Korean martial arts historian, and he wanted to go back to the classical kicking styles of the earlier arts.  As a result, he developed the Songahm (Pine Tree) style, which has an increased emphasis on kicking from White Belt onward.

For example, if you look at Chun-Ji, the White Belt form from Chang-Hun style, there are no kicks (start at about 1:00 to see the form).

Now look at Songahm 1, the White Belt form from our style.  Note the front kick and the side kick in the form (start at about 1:16 to see the form).

Does this make our forms better?  No, they're just a different application of the philosophy behind the style and a way of training the basic movements.  After all, "a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick" (quoting an obscure martial artist here ).  And if I may quote another obscure D) martial artist with a minor change in wording:  The ultimate aim of martial arts training lies not in victory nor defeat, but in the perfection of the character of its participants 

I got a little long-winded here, but I hope that I answered your question eventually!


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## Balrog (Aug 6, 2014)

Tames D said:


> I'm glad tshadowchaser asked that "ridiculous" question, because I also didn't know anything at all about the ATA, but learned something valuable from your answer.


Thank you.  And I learned a little humility from his question, because I made an assumption that I shouldn't have made and as a result, my response to him was neither courteous nor respectful.  And I know better than that - it was not a good job of practicing what I preach, so to speak.

It's good to get a little egg on your face every now and then.  I may hold the title of Master Instructor, but all that means is that I've gotten really good at being a student.  And there are always opportunities to learn, especially after the egg smacks you in the forehead.


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## d1jinx (Aug 6, 2014)

a lot of people attack the ATA so I understand the defensive position.  I learned long ago, that bad apples always stand out and every org has its fair share of bad apples.  

GM Soon Ho Lee was very good to me during my time with him and I learned a lot from him.  Though I never continued my path in Songham TKD, I learned a lot from him and his school that I continue today in my teachings of kukki-tkd.

Not sure if a lot of people know/knew, but the Lee brothers were also KKW certified and knew the kukkiwon forms.  Every now and then, GM S H Lee would stay after class and have me practice my forms, while making corrections and giving explanations of movements and meanings.  

Had the military not moved me away from there, I would have stayed with him.

So yes, I have much appreciation and respect for the ATA.


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## Balrog (Aug 6, 2014)

d1jinx said:


> a lot of people attack the ATA so I understand the defensive position.  I learned long ago, that bad apples always stand out and every org has its fair share of bad apples.


You got that right!  In every large group of people, there are always going to be a few that wind up under the left side of the bell curve, and they are almost always the ones that get the attention and that people then wide-brush the entire group with.



> GM Soon Ho Lee was very good to me during my time with him and I learned a lot from him.  Though I never continued my path in Songham TKD, I learned a lot from him and his school that I continue today in my teachings of kukki-tkd.
> 
> Not sure if a lot of people know/knew, but the Lee brothers were also KKW certified and knew the kukkiwon forms.  Every now and then, GM S H Lee would stay after class and have me practice my forms, while making corrections and giving explanations of movements and meanings.
> 
> ...


GM Soon Ho Lee took over the reins in a very troubled time for ATA following GM H. U. Lee's death, and he IMNSHO did a very good job keeping our ATA family together.  His favorite saying is so simple and yet so profound:  there's always more to learn.  I saw him last month at World's and I can only hope I look half that good when I hit my 70s.


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## d1jinx (Aug 7, 2014)

Balrog said:


> I saw him last month at World's and I can only hope I look half that good when I hit my 70s.



does he still have a fascination for corvettes?  he had a new one every 6 months!!!!!:supcool:


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## TrueJim (Aug 7, 2014)

Balrog said:


> ...Grandmaster H. U. Lee was somewhat of a Korean martial arts historian, and he wanted to go back to the classical kicking styles of the earlier arts.  As a result, he developed the Songahm (Pine Tree) style, which has an increased emphasis on kicking from White Belt onward.



I know gross generalizations are rarely accurate, but sometimes they're useful. So would you say that ATA-style taekwondo is kinda like Kukkiwon-style taekwondo because of its emphasis on kicking, but alo kinda like ITF-style taekwondo because of its emphasis on self-defense (as opposed to the Kukkiwon-emphasis on sport).

If that's true, I think it's a really useful generalization (IF it's true) because (at least to my mind) it explains why ATA-style is interesting.

I say *if* it's true because I would have though that as General Choi evolved the ITF-style away from being karate-like, ITF would have already picked up a lot more kicking than karate. So I guess the new question in my mind is: is ATA-style more kick-oriented than ITF-style, or are they both about equally kick-oriented nowadays?

Maybe my generalization is too simplistic to be useful. I'm only a Kukkiwon-style person but I find the history and differences between styles interesting. (I read A Killing Art etc. to learn more, for example.)


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## Balrog (Aug 28, 2014)

TrueJim said:


> I know gross generalizations are rarely accurate, but sometimes they're useful. So would you say that ATA-style taekwondo is kinda like Kukkiwon-style taekwondo because of its emphasis on kicking, but alo kinda like ITF-style taekwondo because of its emphasis on self-defense (as opposed to the Kukkiwon-emphasis on sport).
> 
> If that's true, I think it's a really useful generalization (IF it's true) because (at least to my mind) it explains why ATA-style is interesting.
> 
> ...



Very good question.

In general, I would say yes, Songahm is more kick-oriented than Chang Hun.  I had the opportunity to watch a friend test for 1st Degree in Chang Hun style a couple of years ago, and also got to watch some of the higher ranks, including a lady testing for 4th Degree who was really good.  None of the Black Belt forms that I saw presented had as much emphasis on kicking that Songahm has.  I'm not saying that's wrong, mind you, it's just the difference in the philosophy behind the styles.

An example:  Here is the ITF 3rd Degree form called Yoo-Sin.  68 moves (I think) and almost all of them are hand techniques.  There are a couple of front kicks and a couple of side kicks.  It appears to me that the gentleman performing it has very solid stances, good power, great foot and hand timing on his hand techniques, and his kicks are strong and on target.  These are things that I look for when judging forms and I would score him highly on the technical aspects.  I can't judge whether he did it correctly because I don't know the form personally.

Now here is Chung-San, the Songahm 3rd Degree form.  It's 83 moves long and the emphasis is on balance and flow (we joke about this form: the name means Peace & Tranquility, and it brings neither  ).  Note the variety of kicks executed in the form, most with power and some with slow tension, stressing the balance factor.  We have three judges at tournaments, all of whom know the form.  One of the corner judges looks at stances and kicks, the other looks at the strikes and blocks.  They are the technical judges, so to speak.  The center judge looks at the overall presentation, flow and correctness of the form.  I can see the foot judge and the center's scores, and I believe I correctly heard him call the hand score; this form received 8-8-9, or 25 points out of a total max of 27.  Excellent presentation.

I hope this helps explain why I say that Songahm was created to go back to the kicking roots of Korean martial arts, so to speak.


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## terryl965 (Sep 2, 2014)

Changing a name might be a blessing for them, since so many think they are not a real martial art


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## Balrog (Sep 3, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Changing a name might be a blessing for them, since so many think they are not a real martial art



Wellll.....if I really wanted to be nit-picky and split hairs, I'd agree with them.  ATA is the organization.  Taekwondo is the martial art, Songahm is the specific style.

But we're still ATA.  ATA Wordwide, to be specific.  We had issues overseas using the term Taekwondo, as other organizations have actually trademarked or copyrighted the word Taekwondo in other countries.  The name change eliminates that problem.

The motto Always Take Action is okay, but to us old hide-bound dinosaurs, we'll still be the American Taekwondo Association in our hearts!


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## terryl965 (Sep 4, 2014)

Balrog said:


> Wellll.....if I really wanted to be nit-picky and split hairs, I'd agree with them.  ATA is the organization.  Taekwondo is the martial art, Songahm is the specific style.
> 
> But we're still ATA.  ATA Wordwide, to be specific.  We had issues overseas using the term Taekwondo, as other organizations have actually trademarked or copyrighted the word Taekwondo in other countries.  The name change eliminates that problem.
> 
> The motto Always Take Action is okay, but to us old hide-bound dinosaurs, we'll still be the American Taekwondo Association in our hearts!




Ok you do relize I was make a statement that in some area's that would be good, like in all arts you have your good and bad. hopefully they will grow and excell under the new name


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## Balrog (Sep 6, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Ok you do relize I was make a statement that in some area's that would be good, like in all arts you have your good and bad. hopefully they will grow and excell under the new name


Of course.  But I was looking for an excuse to unleash my inner dinosaur!


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## Tames D (Sep 6, 2014)

terryl965 said:


> Changing a name might be a blessing for them, since so many think they are not a real martial art



I'm not sure changing the name would change the minds of those thinking it's not a real martial art. Besides, the acronym is still the same.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 7, 2014)

It's fair enough to say that any sufficiently popularized martial art is prone to becoming a belt mill or McDojo and ATA is no exception and may simply be the most recent casualty. 
I applaud the rationality of this thread and the contributors' ability to be civil and attentive to the conversation.


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## Tames D (Sep 7, 2014)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> It's fair enough to say that any sufficiently popularized martial art is prone to becoming a belt mill or McDojo and ATA is no exception and may simply be the most recent casualty.
> I applaud the rationality of this thread and the contributors' ability to be civil and attentive to the conversation.



Welcome back, Jim.


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## Balrog (Sep 10, 2014)

OnlyAnEgg said:


> It's fair enough to say that any sufficiently popularized martial art is prone to becoming a belt mill or McDojo and ATA is no exception and may simply be the most recent casualty.


I have to agree with you.  When the business practices start interfering with the quality of the martial art being taught, that is not a good thing.  When Johnny's rank promotion is based on whether the check for the testing fee cleared the bank as opposed to what he actually did out there on the floor, we all suffer - especially Johnny.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there will always be people under the left end of the bell curve.  ATA is no different.  ATA trains the hell out of us in both physical and teaching techniques, and we still have a few left-enders make it through.  Unfortunately, the rest of us have to put up with the fallout from them.  No matter what the organization, there will always be people who pee in the pool and ruin it for everyone else.

People are people.  Some are really great, the vast majority are really nice, and some just flat-out suck pond water.



> I applaud the rationality of this thread and the contributors' ability to be civil and attentive to the conversation.


<bowing while typing>
Thank you!


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## Master Dan (Sep 12, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> No I do not.  But I do know that when organizations change names or join together that sometimes there is a price increase in fees for the members.
> I also know that most TKD organizations charge for testing and a large part of that fee goes to the organization and not to the school.
> and seeing as I know nothing not being a member how about telling me about this organization.  and when did it come into being and why and who started it  and why did that person or people leave which ever TKD organization they used to belong to.
> And NO I am not asking to be a smart *** I am asking because I want to know



*Actually in most cases the majority of the testing fees are 100% for Gup level/colored belt certs and 100% to 1000% mark up on the national or international certification goes to the local Do Jang or head Master 

*


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Aug 2, 2020)

Balrog said:


> I have to agree with you.  When the business practices start interfering with the quality of the martial art being taught, that is not a good thing.  When Johnny's rank promotion is based on whether the check for the testing fee cleared the bank as opposed to what he actually did out there on the floor, we all suffer - especially Johnny.
> 
> As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there will always be people under the left end of the bell curve.  ATA is no different.  ATA trains the hell out of us in both physical and teaching techniques, and we still have a few left-enders make it through.  Unfortunately, the rest of us have to put up with the fallout from them.  No matter what the organization, there will always be people who pee in the pool and ruin it for everyone else.
> 
> ...



Do ATA schools have to remain "affiliated" with the organization?  In other words, other than kicking up fees, do owners/instructors have to be "monitored", trained, tested, whatever, by the organization?  Or mandatory training to keep using the name, ensuring quality instruction is being taught under the ATA name?  (I apologize if the wording is weird, I'm having an issue trying to ask what I'm asking, lol)


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## Tman (Aug 5, 2020)

ATA school owners are granted a license which allows them to teach the Songahm curriculum, guarantees a territory and provides support from ATA headquarters.   If you do not have a license or lose your license you may not  legally teach the curriculum.   Once you are a certified instructor you are required to periodically re-certify, I do not recall how often that happens.  Once you reach 4th degree you are also required to earn points before being able to rank test again, you  can earn these in a number of ways, by participating in the  running of tournaments, attending training seminars and sitting on testing panels.  I do know of a school owner who lost his license, in part because he was not reporting his students testings to HQ.


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## Buka (Aug 5, 2020)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Tman.


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## Balrog (Aug 5, 2020)

Tait said:


> Do ATA schools have to remain "affiliated" with the organization?  In other words, other than kicking up fees, do owners/instructors have to be "monitored", trained, tested, whatever, by the organization?  Or mandatory training to keep using the name, ensuring quality instruction is being taught under the ATA name?  (I apologize if the wording is weird, I'm having an issue trying to ask what I'm asking, lol)


No, it's a good question.  ATA does provide advanced training and requires all certified instructors to re certify every three years.  This is to make sure that we are all teaching the forms the same way.  

Everyone tests for rank, period.  Starting at 4th Degree, you must test in front of the International Testing Committee.  Or at least they did until Covid-19 screwed everything up.  Now they are trying to put together virtual testings via Zoom.

I hope that answers your question.  If it left you confused, let me know and I can get into more detail if you want.


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## Balrog (Jan 1, 2023)

<answer deleted>


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## Holmejr (Jan 2, 2023)

Vigilantism for sure. Any recent converts to an unknown radical group? 
😜


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