# 7 Star Mantis Kung Fu vs. Tae Kwon Do



## white mantis (Jun 13, 2004)

What is The best approch for a mantis practiciner when facing someone who knows TKD. 

:btg: :jediduel:


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 13, 2004)

It's a case by case thing...

As a general whole, TKD seems to focus on lightning fast kicks, so, I'd say get in close and keep them off balance.


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## Han-Mi (Jun 13, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> It's a case by case thing...
> 
> As a general whole, TKD seems to focus on lightning fast kicks, so, I'd say get in close and keep them off balance.


You are correct. If you were to face someone trained in TKD you would want to be inside and keep yourself inside.  But, should you come up against a well rounded TKD fighter, as I like to think of myself, then you should fight as you would feel that you are best able to.  Oh ya, if your any good on the ground, most TKD guys don't even know how to pass the guard or get out of a simple arm bar. 

I'd never assume though.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 13, 2004)

As most have said it strongly depends on the fighter and is very much a case by case basis. From a strictly technique standpoint it would be correct to get in close. Yielding will be your friend, as well as sweeps and throws most likely. Use your feel to stay close and connected to try and disable the kicks, use powerful knee or shin kicks combined with heavy use of plucking. I would think one of the most crucial points would be closing the gap, however if your skilled enough a good high kick can sometimes open that door for you as well, you can get in and try to steal their center as quickly as possible.


7sm


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## 7starmantis (Jun 21, 2004)

I can tell you this, my sifu said when he was young him and his kung fu brother used to go fight with some tae kwon do guys. He said his sifu would tell them not to and they would go anyways. He said for years they went and got the crap beat out of them. They almost quite kung fu thinking it didn't work. But after several years of kung fu and when they began learning the principles of mantis they would go back and the same guys couldn't touch them. So I guess thats a good story to say put your time in, and work hard. Kung fu is one of those systems that takes a while to be good at. Its not good to compare you system with another especially early on.

7sm


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## Guro Harold (Jul 5, 2004)

Adding to 7sm, kung-fu literally means time and energy.

As far as Praying Mantis Kung-fu, some other techniques that have not been mentioned are the 7 Star joint-attacking/locking techniques; Positive and negative Si diu strikes, hooking trapping, and destructions; 7 Star kicks, eye-jabbing and pressure point striking, and monkey footwork, grounding makes the mantis a very formidable style.

So my advice is concentrate on understanding one aspect of Praying Mantis kung-fu when you are sparring to learn.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 22, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> As most have said it strongly depends on the fighter and is very much a case by case basis. From a strictly technique standpoint it would be correct to get in close. Yielding will be your friend, as well as sweeps and throws most likely. Use your feel to stay close and connected to try and disable the kicks, use powerful knee or shin kicks combined with heavy use of plucking. I would think one of the most crucial points would be closing the gap, however if your skilled enough a good high kick can sometimes open that door for you as well, you can get in and try to steal their center as quickly as possible.
> 7sm


 
Well, I would say for any CMA style not just mantis this is what you want to do against a TKD stylist. I don't agree with tyrying to use high kicks against them ,say what you want ,but not many ppl will out kick a TKD stylist.

For you to try that is for you to fight their fight.

What wins fights is to take a person out of their comfort zone ,which is why you'll see a grappler take a striker down or a southern stylist fight inclose on a northern stylist. The idea is to find their weakness not attack their strengths.

For a mantis stylist i would say get inclose and use your trapping skills TKD does not have many fist techniques ,so your trapping could really confuse them.

jeff


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## 7starmantis (Jul 22, 2004)

Actually I wasn't clear enough, I ment one of their high kicks could open the door for you to move in. I didn't mean you try to do a high kick, how would that open the door to move in close?

I agree with everything else you said, but I dont understand why you would say a southern stylist should get in close with a northern stylist? 7* is a northern system and all we do is close fighting. I just dont understand your thinking of why close fighting would close down a northern "stylist".

7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 22, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Actually I wasn't clear enough, I ment one of their high kicks could open the door for you to move in. I didn't mean you try to do a high kick, how would that open the door to move in close?


Well, a high kick by you or them can open a way for you to move in closer. Most ppl when attacked with a high kick step into it to cut off the power. You attack the leg at a point that it greatly decreases the power of the kick.

I would hope you understand what i mean ,since you alluded that you've been training a long time in another thread.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> I agree with everything else you said, but I dont understand why you would say a southern stylist should get in close with a northern stylist? 7* is a northern system and all we do is close fighting. I just dont understand your thinking of why close fighting would close down a northern "stylist".
> 7sm


Because most southern styles not all ,but most like Hung Gar,Black Tiger,Southern Praying Mantis etc... must be inside ,they are inclose fighting systems. You don't want to be outside trying to fight a longrange stylist. I never said anything about closing a 7* stylist down either.

I just gave general discriptions.

You would be fighting at their range against their strength ,that's just plain crazy.

This is going to sound like a diss ,but it's not.

I'd fight a Seven Star stylist anyday inclose ,i would never fight them at longrange. The reason being although you guys are an inclose system ,you're not conditioned to take the type of brutal arm attacks that a Hung Gar or Black Tiger stylist would inflict.

If you know anything about Hung Gar or Black Tiger ,then you'll know what i mean. One of the flaws that northern praying mantis has ,is it's lack of arm conditioning. It is something any true southern stylist will tell you ,they would attack.

Every style has their flaws ,that happens to be one of praying mantis's.

jeff


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## Guro Harold (Jul 23, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> Well, a high kick by you or them can open a way for you to move in closer. Most ppl when attacked with a high kick step into it to cut off the power. You attack the leg at a point that it greatly decreases the power of the kick.
> 
> I would hope you understand what i mean ,since you alluded that you've been training a long time in another thread.
> 
> ...



Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 23, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.


Let's go ,i'm ready ,what do you want to discuss first?

Since i've done both and even styles that are a mixture of the two.

jeff


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## RHD (Jul 23, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Actually this could be a nice technical thread within itself to describe northern and southern systems.



I think Jeff has a good point.  Northern Mantis styles were to my understanding, designed to defeat other Northern styles such as Lohan or Hsing Yi.  True Southern styles on the other hand, were crafted to defeat Northern styles of all types.  Granted, there is an individual skill issue here, and a good fighter of any style is a good fighter.  However, on the level of tactics and concepts, this is how I understand things to have evolved.  Still, I've known some Northern Mantis practitioners with outstanding conditioning.  Also, many Northern lineages have run through the South for several generations now, and have probably picked up some things along the way.  Few styles experience a geographical shift and remain intact or in thier original configuration.  This is of course, not taking into consider various other individual factors.
One thing I can say about Northern Mantis fighters is that they are generally very fast.  Speed can copensate for many other things and make them fearsome opponents.  Also,the Northern Mantis from what I've experienced, uses a cadence to its movements that can be both disconcerting and deceptive. 

Mike


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## Guro Harold (Jul 23, 2004)

I meant that it would be great if we could have a technical thread where the northern and southern styles are defined and described.

Other threads could contrast the styles in a verses if so desired.

These could be a great tool to introduce CMA to visitors of the forum.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 23, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> I meant that it would be great if we could have a technical thread where the northern and southern styles are defined and described.
> 
> Other threads could contrast the styles in a verses if so desired.
> 
> These could be a great tool to introduce CMA to visitors of the forum.


well, like i said i'm ready. Start the thread and i'll be glad to share as many of my experiences as i can.

jeff


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## Guro Harold (Jul 23, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> well, like i said i'm ready. Start the thread and i'll be glad to share as many of my experiences as i can.
> 
> jeff


Jeff,

You are a very knowlegeable member.  Why don't you start a thread on your particular style.  I am mainly faciliating the idea right now to get the ball rolling.  I will hopefully contribute more to the CMA forum but I am mainly focused on the FMA/MA forums currently.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 23, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Jeff,
> 
> You are a very knowlegeable member. Why don't you start a thread on your particular style. I am mainly faciliating the idea right now to get the ball rolling. I will hopefully contribute more to the CMA forum but I am mainly focused on the FMA/MA forums currently.


Ok, will do.

Give me a few to get some thoughts together.

jeff


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## 7starmantis (Jul 23, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> I'd fight a Seven Star stylist anyday inclose ,i would never fight them at longrange. The reason being although you guys are an inclose system ,you're not conditioned to take the type of brutal arm attacks that a Hung Gar or Black Tiger stylist would inflict.


I think you must be confusing 7* with something else, there are no long range techniques in 7*, I mean literaly none at all. I've never heard anyone say that about arm conditioning since most of the mantis techniques involve using the arm, forearm, elbow, etc. Most breaks are using the forearm or inside of the arm. In fact, we do more iron arm training at my school than most CMA schools I've visited. Grant-it, my sifu's kung fu brother teaches hung gar, so we get a chance to learn a bit from time to time, but I've never heard anyone say that about 7* mantis. Arm conditioning is a major point in mantis kung fu.

What kind of brutal arm attacks are you talking about? Maybe we are mis-understanding each other.

7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 23, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I think you must be confusing 7* with something else, there are no long range techniques in 7*, I mean literaly none at all. I've never heard anyone say that about arm conditioning since most of the mantis techniques involve using the arm, forearm, elbow, etc. Most breaks are using the forearm or inside of the arm. In fact, we do more iron arm training at my school than most CMA schools I've visited. Grant-it, my sifu's kung fu brother teaches hung gar, so we get a chance to learn a bit from time to time, but I've never heard anyone say that about 7* mantis. Arm conditioning is a major point in mantis kung fu.
> 
> What kind of brutal arm attacks are you talking about? Maybe we are mis-understanding each other.
> 
> 7sm


7sm,

Just a question ,how long have you been studying mantis. I know a good amount about 7* mantis. The other mantis styles i really don't know much about. But one thing for sure 7* mantis even contains some Black Tiger forms.

7* mantis is a longfist style and it uses monkey style foot work ,because it doesn't look like the run of the mill longfist doesn't mean it's not longfist.

Does Eagle Claw look like longfist?

jeff


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## 7starmantis (Jul 23, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> 7sm,
> 
> Just a question ,how long have you been studying mantis. I know a good amount about 7* mantis. The other mantis styles i really don't know much about. But one thing for sure 7* mantis even contains some Black Tiger forms.
> 
> ...


I've been with my current sifu for a little over 3 years. Its hard to say that 7* contains certain forms because there are different lines of 7* that use different forms. What Black Tiger Forms are you refering to? 7* is not a longfist style like you've said, I dont know who told you that, but they were mistaken. Whether or not it looks like a longfist style is irrelevant, the principles are not longfist. I could see where it may seem that way because some of the techniques from a watching standpoint could resemble longfist. Thats the problem with many of the mantis systems, people watch it and assume they know the application to one said technique and it could be very different. Your correct, 7* uses monkey footwork. Eagle claw does use some longfist principles.

So what type of brutal arm attacks are you refering to?

7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 23, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I've been with my current sifu for a little over 3 years. Its hard to say that 7* contains certain forms because there are different lines of 7* that use different forms. What Black Tiger Forms are you refering to? 7* is not a longfist style like you've said, I dont know who told you that, but they were mistaken. Whether or not it looks like a longfist style is irrelevant, the principles are not longfist. I could see where it may seem that way because some of the techniques from a watching standpoint could resemble longfist. Thats the problem with many of the mantis systems, people watch it and assume they know the application to one said technique and it could be very different. Your correct, 7* uses monkey footwork. Eagle claw does use some longfist principles.
> 
> So what type of brutal arm attacks are you refering to?
> 
> 7sm


True lineage does make a difference ,and i just found out that your lineage is a mixed one ,so never mind. Your lineage is not a traditional Seven Star lineage ,it's a blend of Seven Star,Wah Lum,and Northern.

Raymond Fogg is your sigung correct?

Well, let me refrase that,it's not a longfist style as in meaning of long range fist techniques ,but it is in regards to the leg techniques. Well my experience with mantis is more than just watching so.....

I really can't think of a way to put into words what type of arm attacks i'm talking about ,so you can understand. But you should have an idea since you said someone at your kwoon blends Hung Gar with your training.

What part of Texas is east Texas?

I have a friend in Texas a Hung Gar sifu that i will be visiting sometime soon ,i would like to visit your school or maybe even meet with you while in Texas.

This is not a challange or anything ,i like to meet with martial artist that i've talked to on the internet. I've met quite a few. I work for an airline ,so i'm able to fly for free.

jeff


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## 7starmantis (Jul 24, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> True lineage does make a difference ,and i just found out that your lineage is a mixed one ,so never mind. Your lineage is not a traditional Seven Star lineage ,it's a blend of Seven Star,Wah Lum,and Northern.
> 
> Raymond Fogg is your sigung correct?


I'm not of the opinions that lineage has much to do with your actual training and skill, but many people still believe it does. Yes, Raymond Fogg is my sigung, but we do have traditional 7* lineage through Lee Kam Wing of Hong Kong. We also have lineage in Wah Lum, your correct, but both lineages are seperate. 



			
				Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> I really can't think of a way to put into words what type of arm attacks i'm talking about ,so you can understand. But you should have an idea since you said someone at your kwoon blends Hung Gar with your training.


We do get some Hung Gar training, but I've haven't found any brutal arm attacks that are beyond what we train in 7*.



			
				Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> What part of Texas is east Texas?
> 
> I have a friend in Texas a Hung Gar sifu that i will be visiting sometime soon ,i would like to visit your school or maybe even meet with you while in Texas.
> 
> ...


I'd love to meet you, no challenge taken. We are about 1 1/2 hours east of Dallas. Tyler Texas, good old Rose Capital of the U.S. they say.

7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 26, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm not of the opinions that lineage has much to do with your actual training and skill, but many people still believe it does. Yes, Raymond Fogg is my sigung, but we do have traditional 7* lineage through Lee Kam Wing of Hong Kong. We also have lineage in Wah Lum, your correct, but both lineages are seperate.


Well, it depends on the lineage for the training part ,some lineages are still holding on to ancient old training traditions. Our lineage of Black Tiger is such a lineage.

Yes, you do have a traditional 7* lineage ,that came out wrong. What i was trying to say is that your sigung doesn't teach it that way though. Although you have seperate mantis lineages ,he teaches a mix of the lineages he has.



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> We do get some Hung Gar training, but I've haven't found any brutal arm attacks that are beyond what we train in 7*.


Well, that also depends on the Hung Gar lineage. Do you know who your Hung Gar lineage is through?

Do you guys do Kiu Sau training or 3* arm banging at all? 

What type of arm conditioning do you guys do?

Here are some pics of black tiger arm conditioning tools.












*The first two pictures are the Stone Locs ,as you swing them ,the concrete crashes into you forearms on both sides.*






*This is a concrete weight that you roll down your arm ,when it reaches the bottom you thrust it back up to your inside elbow joint.*






*This is what Black Tiger is famous for The 9 Armed Grinder Dummy made of Concrete and Iron. As you strike it ,it strikes back spinning with the same force you hit it with..*



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'd love to meet you, no challenge taken. We are about 1 1/2 hours east of Dallas. Tyler Texas, good old Rose Capital of the U.S. they say.
> 
> 7sm


My friend is in El Paso ,so i'll have to find out how far that is away and plan accordingly.

jeff


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## Zepp (Jul 26, 2004)

Sorry for butting in here, but I'm a tad surprised that none of you seem to want a Tae Kwon Doist's advice for kicking a Tae Kwon Doist's ***.

First of all, though it seems like you guys are trying hard not to stereotype, you're still falling into that same old trap of assumptions about how a TKDist fights.  Not all of us train at McDojo's or train for the Olympics and nothing else.  (Though at times I know it seems like it.)  

Let me say that a competent TKDist can strike with mutiple surfaces of each of his limbs from all ranges.  That includes in close, and on the ground.  He also knows how to break out of simple (at least) grabs and holds, as well as how to not get grabbed effectively in the first place.  He's not going to throw kicks to the head while his opponent is in a position to take advantage of his raised leg.  If he does kick high, it'll likely be when his opponent can't see it, or at least, isn't expecting any kind of kick above the belt.  (If you're a female TKDist, please read the above paragraph as though he = she.)

There is one assumption here, made by 7starmantis, that I think is more reliable, and that is that "yielding will be your friend."  TKD is an aggressive style that teaches to end a fight quickly.  Someone who knows how to yield and counterattack properly could have an advantage.

Y'know the best way to beat a Tae Kwon Doist?  The same way you'd fight any other trained fighter whom you've never faught before.  You can be faster and stronger than they are, or you can be more vicious and more creative than they are, or you can offer to shake hands and take turns buying the next round of beers.


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## TigerWoman (Jul 26, 2004)

That synopsis/strategy was pretty good, Zepp.  I was going to say something but you beat me to it.  Yes, we do use everything. Our school does alot of punching, elbow strikes, joint locks etc.  Legs to keep the opponent away when he comes in close. Actually, I like close, jump back to the ribs, turn and knee to the groin. My favorite partner is alot taller to me, and that is the only way to fight him. (I'm nice to him though and he's nice to me too).  Gee, I wonder what it will be like to spar with my daughter who is studying Kung Fu now - don't know what school she settled on.  How long does it take to become somewhat proficient in KF? 
TW


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## WLMantisKid (Jul 26, 2004)

Every Northern PM practitioner I've seen has a lot of in close attacks. 

As a Wah Lum practitioner, I notice a lot of southern flare in our style, as in lots of in close attacks mixed with the long ones...


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## 7starmantis (Jul 27, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist,
 I sent you a PM so we could keep this thread on topic.

7sm


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## mantis (Oct 3, 2005)

you have to watch out
 people think that TKD fighters only concentrate on foot work and high kicks. You may be faced by a smart TKD fighter that knows how to use his hands and can get you into terrible locks. Also, TKD schools also concentrate on Hapkido as well, so do not just count that the person is only kicking you.
 remember, if the TKD person wants to kick that means he is out of your mantis range, so you can back up and move as he tries to approach you with a kick, you have a plenty of space/time to run away, or back up. you never have to engage.
 if he is in your  mantis range, then bingo! this means he can't kick, he can only knee you, so use the first line of defense "the crane stance" when he knees you, and make sure you grab his arms and pluck if you want to kick, knee, elbow, punch, or palm the guy. here you can definitely throw the guy out of balance (TKD dont have strong stances that keep their center of balance low and stable, notice that when they kick the other foot is not rooted on the ground) 
 Kung fu practitioners some times keep themselves far from the TKD fighter which gives the TKD guy space to kick high (watch out for their high kick "the uprising kick") and they forget that if they got close enough to the guy he cant kick, and they can do everything they wish to him

 good luck


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## mantis (Oct 3, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Y'know the best way to beat a Tae Kwon Doist? The same way you'd fight any other trained fighter whom you've never faught before. You can be faster and stronger than they are, or you can be more vicious and more creative than they are, or you can offer to shake hands and take turns buying the next round of beers.


 dear Zepp.. 
 mantis gung fu doesnt require you to be stronger or faster. all we need is the TKDist to hit hard so he/she can be hit hard. Mantis uses soft techniques in yielding and plucking to use your energy against you. The way we get close to a fighter makes the oponent uncomfortable to move. especially that we "sense" the direction of his energy and use it against him/her.
 still it depends on how bright the fighter is, and how fast he/she can understand the game and adapt to it...

 -smashed mantis


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## Tamojin (May 20, 2010)

In my schools lineage of 7* we learn long range techniques first then specialize in short form in-fighting. And arm and hand conditioning is rigourous and extensive. I cannot imagine a 7 * style that doesnt condition the arm and hand - its the praying mantis' bread and butter.


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## clfsean (May 20, 2010)

Is 5 years a new necromancy record?


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## Neijia (Mar 25, 2012)

After 2 years of traditional hardcore training in mantis I had beaten up 7 TKD black belts.  It was easy to do.  TKD is often worse than not knowing any martial art.  I know I should say all arts are equal, but they are not.  Its better to have a good TKD teacher than a bad mantis teacher, but if both teachers are equally good seven star will win hands down.


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

After 2 years of traditional hardcore training in Tae Bo I had beaten up 2,000 Mantis masters. It was easy to do.  Mantis is often worse than not knowing any martial art.
  I know I should say all arts are equal but my ego is to big to even grasp such a concept. Its better to have a good Mantis teacher than a bad Tae Bo teacher,
but if both teachers are equally good Tae Bo will win hands down. My 2 years in Tae Bo says so.


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## Neijia (Mar 25, 2012)

you treasure garbage, thats is great, see how far that takes you.  I'm assuming you are learning TKD for the public.  Some of the special forces TKD guys in Korea know their stuff, point strikes, joint locks, throws.  Hapkido is awesome, Tae kyun is aewsome, non spec forces TKD sucks.


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't study TKD but I don't paint blanket statements about any martial arts just because *I experience something doesn't mean its the truth for everyone else.
*
If you think Non Spec forces TKD sucks you are entitled to your opinion but in a public forum noone likes the guy who insults other practictioners in particular styles while stroking their ego on how they can beat multiple people up.


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## elder999 (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> After 2 years of traditional hardcore training in mantis I had beaten up 7 TKD black belts. It was easy to do.



These guys, right? :lol:


:lfao:


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## Tensei85 (May 15, 2012)

I think since this thread has been resurrected for whatever reason, I'll lay out a few brief things.   1st. One of the basic principles in 7 Star Mantis is that we use soft against hard, we train these principles through the use  of Sap Yi Yao Sau '12 Soft techniques'.   2nd We also train the Baat Gong Sau '8 Hard techniques'.   & Mantis as I learned has excellent conditioning including a drill quite similar to Da Saam Sing (3 Stars Hitting)  But on a side note TKD as I've experienced also has great conditioning involved, although I dont think that was ever in question but thought I'd interject that.   For most peoples you can invision a gameplan all you want but once you actually experience a fight you may sometimes realize that your gameplan went out the window & is replaced with adrenalin & emotions so you revert to more primitive fighting techniques, which is why find a good Sifu/Teacher train what he/she has to offer become proficient at that.   Train hard, train realistic, rest well & progress well.   So these style vs style threads should stay dead that being said let it die once again lol


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## qwerty (Dec 6, 2014)

Learning tae quan do and learning say 7 star matis is similar to comparing a tornado and a typhoon. While tae quan do is more useful and powerful in the short term, mastering seven star is more effective in the long term.


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