# steven seagal's aikido



## drummingman

what is the name of the style of aikido that steven seagal teaches? what makes it different from other styles of aikido.
does anyone know of any schools in va that teaches his style of aikido? i have seen schools on line in Florida but not in va.


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## Devin

Ki Society I think.


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## Aikironin

check the search engine on the forum for Seagal, this question has already been asked and answered.

or try Japanese martial arts General


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## Stan

Drummingman, do you do Aikido already?  How much exposure have you had to Aikido in general?  

I'm not trying to be offensive or anything, but I wonder are you interested in Seagal Shihan's Aikido because of his movies, or for it's own sake?  

To my knowledge, it is very hard to get to Seagal even if you study under him.  I'm not implying that you are a celebrity chaser, but celebrity chasers don't have much of a chance.  

Seagal is a legitimate Aikidoka.  He calls his form Tenshin, from the name of his original dojo, but insists that it is Aikikai style and that there is only one Aikido, invented by O Sensei.  There are differences in his art, but to be fair there are differences in execution and form for many high level shihans.  

His Aikido might be described as empty hand swordfighting.  He loves irimi, or entering.  Contrary to internet rumor, he doesn't do "a little of this, a little of that".  He maintains a close relationship with the Aikikai.  

One of his most influential Aikido teachers was Hiroshi *Isoyama* Shihan.  Some of his long-time (but now former) students are Haruo Matsuoka (http://www.doshinokai.com/) and Larry Reynosa (http://www.makotodojo.com/).  Luis Santos is a current student (http://www.tenshinaikido.com/tenshin/index.html).  My sensei is a student of Luis Santos, Salvatore Forestieri (http://www.shinjitsudojo.com/).  

I don't know of any dojos in Virginia that teach Seagal's style.  Not all dojos claiming to teach Seagal's style are good, and not all mainline-Aikikai dojos are soft and ineffective, as is often thought by Seagal fans.  You will have to go to dojos and find one that is dedicated to teaching budo, rather than just dancing.  They're out there, trust me.


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## drummingman

i don't do aikido no have i ever.but i have been to a class to watch and i have done a lot of reading on it.
both.i like the way his movies show the effectiveness of his style of aikido(even though its all choreographed it shows the possibility of his aikido in a real fight).and also because i like the way that his style of aikido moves.
im definitely not a celebrity chaser,i just like his style of aikido.


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## Stan

I respect that.  That's the same thing that got me involved in Aikido.  Besides this forum, Aikiweb.com has some great Aikido instruction.  I must warn you that reception of Seagal within the Aikido community is very mixed.  Some respect him, and try to separate his Hollywood persona from his Aikido.  Many don't like him, although many who don't are prone to say ignorant things in public internet forums!

Best of luck to you.  Like I said, check out those links I gave you above.  There's definitely some solid Aikido in those groups.  Try to make it to a seminar if you can.  I know our group (Santos Sensei's) will often allow one to come to a seminar even without Aikido experience.  Contact him if you are interested.  And maybe check out this book:  http://www.amazon.com/Beginner-s-Guide-Aikido/dp/0962526908

Stan


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## drummingman

thanks stan for the links and kind words.


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## theletch1

Drummingman, Seagal Sensei uses ALOT of atemi (strikes) in his aikido in the movies.  I've been told that atemi is like the trim in a house...it's there to cover up the rough edges.   Aikido without atemi for the movies, however, would probably be pretty boring since the subtle nuances to balance breaking and redirection of energy don't come across too well on the screen.  Yes, aikido can be effective on the street.  There are several threads here about that very thing.  If you're around the Roanoke area of Virginia then I heartily welcome you to my dojo to check things out.  While mister Seagal wouldn't approve of us (we're Nihon Goshin) we do focus our efforts more on the self defense aspects of aikido than the spiritual.  Good luck in your endeavor should you decide to take up the art and remember the invitation to our school is always good.


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## zDom

theletch1 said:


> Drummingman, Seagal Sensei uses ALOT of atemi (strikes) in his aikido in the movies.



This is something that I think has made Seagal's aikido look a lot like hapkido at times, as hapkido tends to use a lot more striking, generally speaking.


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## Stan

Drummingman,
Have you seen these clips on good ol' Youtube?

Check them out.  You'll definitely recognize Seagal's style especially from the earlier movies, but this is what he looks like when he's doing Aikido, not Hollywood.










http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyyFlHhtWoI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=herSynqVN3M&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM96FLDW72Y&mode=related&search=


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## drummingman

i have most of those videos.they are on his home movie that he was selling from his website.it's called "the path beyond thought".its very good if you can still buy it.im sure that you can find it on e bay.
a few of the vids i have never seen.thanks for the links.i add a comment on the last link that you gave me.it was in response to a guy that was saying that aikido would not stand up in the ufc and pride.check it out,i think you will agree.


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## Stan

You're talking about the 1996 Black and White demo, I assume?  You mean you think I'll agree that Aikido wouldn't stand up in a MMA competition?  Or that I'll agree that what's shown in that video clip refutes that assertion?

I'm glad you've seen all of "The Path Beyond Thought".  Do you recognize Craig Dunn and Larry Reynosa from any of the movies?  Dunn was one of the convienience store thugs in "Hard to Kill" and Reynosa was one of the bodyguards at the casino in "Fire DownBelow".  Just for fun!


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## drummingman

i made a post on there saying that aikido would stand up in a real fight.
i did not know that that was larry and craig.thats cool,next time i watch those movies i will look for them.
i just watched the last part of on deadly ground.im really surprised that it did not do well in the theater.it has a good stpry and some good fight scenes.


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## Jenna

Good posts everybody.. makes a nice change to see a Seagal thread with a bit of info and discussion! Cheers 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Aikironin

You may also want to check with H. Matsuoka's video series from his dojo, this may give you more insight a la Tenshin ryu Aikido.


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## charyuop

I have just started Aikido and these videos on certain point leave me kinda skeptical. I don't doubt the skills of Sensei, but sometimes for demos their lives are not made too easy?
For example in those videos of Seagal sometimes they just run towards him and without even touching them he makes the fly away. Like for example in the third video at minute 2:30. I watched it many times even in slow motion and I can't tell anything which would justify the fly. The only thing I saw was Seagal pressing down on the forarm which might cause you to go down on your knees, not fly away. 
As a beginner I know I might miss the technique itself, but as many watchers comes natural to think "it's fake".


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## morph4me

There are some subtleties in the way techniques are done that aren't really visible to someone who doesn't know what to look for. The longer you train, the more visible certain things become.


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## Stan

charyuop said:


> I have just started Aikido and these videos on certain point leave me kinda skeptical. I don't doubt the skills of Sensei, but sometimes for demos their lives are not made too easy?
> For example in those videos of Seagal sometimes they just run towards him and without even touching them he makes the fly away. Like for example in the third video at minute 2:30. I watched it many times even in slow motion and I can't tell anything which would justify the fly. The only thing I saw was Seagal pressing down on the forarm which might cause you to go down on your knees, not fly away.
> As a beginner I know I might miss the technique itself, but as many watchers comes natural to think "it's fake".



Seagal Sensei's randori is in some ways simpler but in other ways more realistic than randori often is practiced.  The practice with that throw assumes an all-out attack, and assumes that with the other guys coming at you, you don't have time to do anything else than get that guy off you; i.e., don't get grabbed, don't get stuck, don't get taken down.  You don't have time to execute a technique, and definitely not an osae.  On the other hand, if uke gives less than a commited attack in high level randori, that throw wouldn't work, but nage wouldn't just stand there.  He'd be taking uke out.  Going on the offensive.  A lot of randori has to do with movement.  Moving around the mat so that uke has to come get you, rather than you giving yourself to him.  

The mechanics of that throw in particular operate similar to Tenchi Nage; splitting uke's energy high and low, and directing uke downward.  But instead of throwing uke to his back, you throw him forward.  

If you want a practical example, watch any American Footbal game.  People go flying all the time by having their balance upset.  There's a lot of dynamic movement in football; it's not all brute strength.  In fact, i think a lot of football players, especially the offense, would make great aikidoka.

And don't forget that mae ukemi in the dojo turns into a face plant and maybe a broken neck in the street with an untrained opponent.


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## drummingman

sweet!


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## theletch1

Stan said:


> If you want a practical example, watch any American Footbal game. People go flying all the time by having their balance upset. There's a lot of dynamic movement in football; it's not all brute strength. In fact, i think a lot of football players, especially the offense, would make great aikidoka.


 
I once read, years ago, that some football players even went so far as to study dance to make them better able to move fluidly on the line and blend with the opposing force.  Aikido would benefit many a professional athlete in improving their movement.


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## drummingman

does seagal mix in kung fu into his style of aikido? i see that he does use punching and kicking and it looks like kung fu.does he teach this in his style? i think that would be cool if he does eventhough that would mean that his style of aikido is not a traditional style.
it would seem to me that aikido would me a lot more effective if it had more kicking and punching and added some ground fighting.im surprised that somebody has not taken it in this direction.has someone done this that i just don't know about?


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## charyuop

My Sensei showed us a couple of times (but I haven't done it for long yet) strikes which if I am not wrong they are called Atemi. By what I was told by Sensei the atemi is marely a strike which takes away the attention of the opponent from what you are doing, basically a way to open the path to the technique you want to use.
I have seen videos of my Sensei's Sensei, Saotome Sensei, in which he does not exclude strikes. He showed that in case of a real fight and you want to get out alive there are inside of Aikido technique times where you can strike your opponent. Why it is not done? I guess that is inside of the Aikido philosophy.
But as a beginner of course I might have said wrong things...


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## morph4me

Nihon Goshin Aikido teaches strikes and kicks as part of the curriculum.


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## theletch1

morph4me said:


> Nihon Goshin Aikido teaches strikes and kicks as part of the curriculum.


But generally from an almost kata like format.  Chambered punches and front and side kicks from a set stance.  Is it left to the individual instructor to show the students when atemi would be appropriate to redirect uke in the direction you want him to go?  Sensei McCraw is very much pro-atemi when it's appropriate but I've spoken to others at seminars who will say that atemi is for those who have poor technique.  My personal view, maybe because of the kenpo I studied, is that atemi should come as much second nature as the technique provided it fits in with the energy flow of the attack and defense.  One of the things that we've concentrated on with atemi in our dojo is that no energy should be wasted during a strike.  Use the natural rebound of the strike from the target to propel the striking hand on to it's final target of gaining control...i.e. if you're gonna grab with your left hand then you'd strike with the left hand not the right and you wouldn't strike with the left in a direction which is completely opposite of the direction where you eventually want the left hand to end up.  Does that make any sense?

Anyway, Morph, I just wanted to chime in with my personal experience here.  I've found that every instructor has a different personality and therefore approaches atemi differently just as every style approaches them differently.


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## morph4me

theletch1 said:


> But generally from an almost kata like format. Chambered punches and front and side kicks from a set stance. Is it left to the individual instructor to show the students when atemi would be appropriate to redirect uke in the direction you want him to go? Sensei McCraw is very much pro-atemi when it's appropriate but I've spoken to others at seminars who will say that atemi is for those who have poor technique. My personal view, maybe because of the kenpo I studied, is that atemi should come as much second nature as the technique provided it fits in with the energy flow of the attack and defense. One of the things that we've concentrated on with atemi in our dojo is that no energy should be wasted during a strike. Use the natural rebound of the strike from the target to propel the striking hand on to it's final target of gaining control...i.e. if you're gonna grab with your left hand then you'd strike with the left hand not the right and you wouldn't strike with the left in a direction which is completely opposite of the direction where you eventually want the left hand to end up. Does that make any sense?
> 
> Anyway, Morph, I just wanted to chime in with my personal experience here. I've found that every instructor has a different personality and therefore approaches atemi differently just as every style approaches them differently.


 
Makes sense to me. I like atemi, and teach it and use when appropriate, when someone is having a problem with a technique in a self defense line, I usually tell them "When in doubt, punch him out". Technique takes time, and practice to do well, I like to give people something they can use now.


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## theletch1

I have found that atemi is almost always appropriate when defending against a grip of any sort.  The attack is static once the grip is applied and atemi is needed to get some energy flowing in some direction.  I like the "When in doubt, punch him out." idea for the newer aikido-ka.  The biggest thing I hear from white and yellow belt practioners about attack lines is that they are so nervous that they freeze up.  Giving them the option to strike during the attack line gets them moving instead of standing there looking silly and maybe just the act of moving will help a technique come to mind.  As for the higher ranking students I really feel that atemi should augment the technique in a very subtle (if you can call a punch subtle) way and not be a substitute for it.


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## howard

Nice discussion of atemi... I hope I'm not getting too far off topic here, but in Kondo's Daito-ryu teachings, atemi are actually considered one of the seven primary types of aiki.  Now, I've never had one class in any type of Aikido, but from reading discussions about the art by people who are clearly knowledgeable (like you all), I get the impression that at least some aikidoka think of atemi as something separate from aiki... almost like something to be used when an initial attempt at taking the attacker's balance fails.

Am I drawing an incorrect conclusion?

btw, Jeff... thanks for that earlier offer to come to Roanoke, train and share some homebrew... that is mighty attractive, I'll have to figure out when I can do it.  I'll take just about any chance I can get to go back to the Old Dominion. ;~)


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## morph4me

howard said:


> Nice discussion of atemi... I hope I'm not getting too far off topic here, but in Kondo's Daito-ryu teachings, atemi are actually considered one of the seven primary types of aiki. Now, I've never had one class in any type of Aikido, but from reading discussions about the art by people who are clearly knowledgeable (like you all), I get the impression that at least some aikidoka think of atemi as something separate from aiki... almost like something to be used when an initial attempt at taking the attacker's balance fails.
> 
> Am I drawing an incorrect conclusion?


 
No, your conclusion is correct, some aikidoka frown on atemi as something un aiki. Personally I like using atemi as part of tai sabaki, the atemi happens as I move, not separately. I also understand that in the early days Master Uyeshiba was a big proponent of atemi.


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## theletch1

morph4me said:


> No, your conclusion is correct, some aikidoka frown on atemi as something un aiki. Personally I like using atemi as part of tai sabaki, the atemi happens as I move, not separately. I also understand that in the early days Master Uyeshiba was a big proponent of atemi.


Tom, I like the idea that atemi is part of tai sabaki.  Often times folks not only think of atemi as something seperate from aiki but as a seperate movement all together.  As with everything in the aikido world everything must happen with a certain amount of "harmony" to be truly effective and just throwing in a punch to be punching throws off the harmony and flow of any given defense.

Howard, your welcome.  The offer to train is always open for anyone who wants to try a little NGA.  The next batch of home brew will be ready on january second...it's an oktoberfest and is looking good already.


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## shiho

HI, I too became interested in Aikido thru Steven Seagal. We have discussed this many times in our Dojo. He trained in Japan shortly after OSensei's death , a time when I would think Aikido was far from " peace, love ,and harmony" . The man is legitimate and in his day definately for real. I just watched " attack force "  one of his latest movies. It is hard to fin real technique in his moves now. I guess that's hollywood. His Aikido is martial and to the point wich I like. I still watch his older movies and find his style Martially valid , Oh well


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## drummingman

thats what i like about steven,his style is all martial.wam bam thank you mam!!!


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## onequiks2k

I just purchased that DVD on Ebay earlier today...thanx for bringing this clip up on the forums!!!


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