# Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis



## Dan Anderson

Hi All,

I thought Dieter would beat me to this but I am happy to announce the founding of the *Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis*.  This was done at the *Remy Presas Memorial Festival* this last July.  

The mission/vision statement reads as follows:

Bound by the principles of honor, autonomy, equality, respect and recognition regardless of political inclination, cultural differences and religeous beliefs, we bind ourselves together for the purpose of preserving and promoting the legacy of Modern Arnis.

We hereby establish a brotherhood of Modern Arnis practitioners to give meaning and reality to the art.

We are committed to accomplish this purpose through cooperation, exchange of ideas and knowledge, promotion of solidarity and brotherly love.

Through these, we shall continue and strengthen the legacy of Modern Arnis.

Founding Members - 

Common Sense Self Defense/Street Combat (CSSD/SC) Bram Frank
Deutsches Arnis Verband (DAV) Dieter Knuttel
International Modern Arnis Federation, Philippines (IMAFP) Samuel Dulay
Modern Arnis 80 (MA-80) Dan Anderson
Russian ArnisFederation (RAF)
Arnis International - Rodel Dagooc
Cruzada Arnis - Jerry DeLaCruz
There are several points about the Brotherhood which I am particulary pleased about.  First is that each member is considered an autonomous organization.  This means there will be no interference in the organization itself from the Brotherhood - no imposing of certain ranking or curriculum requirements or internal gradings.  In short, DAV will continue to be DAV and MA-80 will continue to be MA-80 without our older brothers telling us what to do.  It is recognized that the Professor's is very broad and that each of us are fulfilling that legacy in our own way.

Second is that there is only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas.  The senior most ranking within Modern Arnis is Senior Master.  Cristino Vasquez, who is the highest ranked student of Remy Presas (I've seen his 9th degree cert) and is still only Senior Master within Modern Arnis.  It is recognized that a member may be a Grand Master in a different art (example: Rene Tongson is GM of Tres Puntas de Abanico) but within the Modern Arnis framework still a Senior Master.  Roberto Presas is listed in IMAFP as Grand Master but he is holding the title for his brother, Remy.

Thirdly, the initial duties of the Brotherhood is one of holding events and one of information exchange.  There will be a WBMA website in the near future.  In the summer of 2007 Dieter Knuttel is holding a 50th anniversary of Modern Arnis training camp in Germany.  More on that from Dieter in the future.

I am very happy that the Brotherhood is an outgrowth of the successful Remy Presas Memorial Festival and I look forward to its growth in the future.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## HKphooey

Dear Mr. Anderson,

Congrats on the new organizations.  I am sure the group will do a lot to proliferate th efine art of Modern Arnis.  I look forward to the future your organization.

Please keep me informed of events, schools, new website, etc. so that I may post on StickArts.com.

Sincerely,
Wayne


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## Dieter

Thanks Dan, 

to publish out new organisation here.
I actuay did not have the  mission statement.This is why I could not post the founding.

I talked already in 2003 with the Masters and Grandmasters in Manila about this and I am really happy, that it came true.
We want to set positive points for Modern Arnis, work positive for a great future of Modern Arnis. 
We all have the same roots, even though we are all different.
We accept this and we will work together. We all came together in the Philippines to found this brotherhood and to set a sign against seperation but towards cooperation and friendship. This is, what the brotherhood shall stand for.

Already now, through the present organisations, the Brotherhood has groups in the following countries: Philippines, USA, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, France, England, Italy, Slowenia, Bosnia, Hungary, Czech Republic, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Hong Kong and mybe more, that I am not aware of right now. 

We hope, other groups will see the positive impact, that we will try to achieve with this Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis and that they might join us in the future.

One of the first contributions of the brotherhoood to the Modern Arnis world will be the publisihing of an interview with Master Romy "Bibing" Lisondra, who started to train with the Professor in 1958 until early 1970ies, and who was an assistent instructor to GM Remy during his time in Bacolod and in the beginning in Manila. He also was the man, who did all the drawings for the pink Modern Arnis book.
I was fortunate to meet him in Bacolod/Negros Occidental, and to make a long interview with himm which I could record, so that his answers will be preserved. 

Regarding the Grandmasters in the Philippines you are correct, that there are no intentions to instal a new Modern Arnis Grandmaster there.

Still, all independent groups have of course the right, to announce, elect or whatever the Grandmaster of their group. Like Bram Frank, Grandmaster of CSSD/SC, Rodel Dagooc, Grandmaster of Arnis International, Jerry de la Cruz, Grandmaster of Arnis Cruzada. So the title belongs to the organisation and nobody tries to replace GM Remy, which would not be possible anyway, as we all know.

We all are looking forward to the 10 Modern Arnis summercamp in Germany, which is also the 2nd meeting of the Brotherhood and the celebration of 50 years of Modern Arnis: 1957 - 2007.
More details will follow, when we can share them. We hope, there will be a lot of international participants.

Regads


Dieter


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## stickarts

Thanks for the info! sounds exciting!


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## Rich Parsons

Good Luck and Best Wishes

:asian:


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## modarnis

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Good Luck and Best Wishes
> 
> :asian:


 
Ditto :asian:


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## kruzada

This is exactly what Modern Arnis needs to move forward. This is a positive step towards fostering a truly unified International Modern Arnis community. 

Grandmaster Remy would be proud. I can't think of a better way to honour his memory.   

-Rich Acosta


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## Morgan

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> I thought Dieter would beat me to this but I am happy to announce the founding of the *Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis*. This was done at the *Remy Presas Memorial Festival* this last July.
> 
> The mission/vision statement reads as follows:
> 
> Bound by the principles of honor, autonomy, equality, respect and recognition regardless of political inclination, cultural differences and religeous beliefs, we bind ourselves together for the purpose of preserving and promoting the legacy of Modern Arnis.
> 
> We hereby establish a brotherhood of Modern Arnis practitioners to give meaning and reality to the art.
> 
> We are committed to accomplish this purpose through cooperation, exchange of ideas and knowledge, promotion of solidarity and brotherly love.
> 
> Through these, we shall continue and strengthen the legacy of Modern Arnis.
> 
> Founding Members -
> 
> Common Sense Self Defense/Street Combat (CSSD/SC) Bram Frank
> Deutsches Arnis Verband (DAV) Dieter Knuttel
> International Modern Arnis Federation, Philippines (IMAFP) Samuel Dulay
> Modern Arnis 80 (MA-80) Dan Anderson
> Russian ArnisFederation (RAF)
> Arnis International - Rodel Dagooc
> Cruzada Arnis - Jerry DeLaCruz
> There are several points about the Brotherhood which I am particulary pleased about. First is that each member is considered an autonomous organization. This means there will be no interference in the organization itself from the Brotherhood - no imposing of certain ranking or curriculum requirements or internal gradings. In short, DAV will continue to be DAV and MA-80 will continue to be MA-80 without our older brothers telling us what to do. It is recognized that the Professor's is very broad and that each of us are fulfilling that legacy in our own way.
> 
> Second is that there is only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas. The senior most ranking within Modern Arnis is Senior Master. Cristino Vasquez, who is the highest ranked student of Remy Presas (I've seen his 9th degree cert) and is still only Senior Master within Modern Arnis. It is recognized that a member may be a Grand Master in a different art (example: Rene Tongson is GM of Tres Puntas de Abanico) but within the Modern Arnis framework still a Senior Master. Roberto Presas is listed in IMAFP as Grand Master but he is holding the title for his brother, Remy.
> 
> Thirdly, the initial duties of the Brotherhood is one of holding events and one of information exchange. There will be a WBMA website in the near future. In the summer of 2007 Dieter Knuttel is holding a 50th anniversary of Modern Arnis training camp in Germany. More on that from Dieter in the future.
> 
> I am very happy that the Brotherhood is an outgrowth of the successful Remy Presas Memorial Festival and I look forward to its growth in the future.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Dear Master Anderson,

May I inquire as to how others might join the WBMA?  When you speak of "founding members" there is an implied suggestion that others might become members, but you have not mentioned if or how that might occur.
Is membership by group or individual status?  The inference is toward group membership.  I ask this question because I might be inclined to seek membership for myself, but my teacher is definately inclined to avoid memberships in any organization because she hates "politics".

Further you state that each organization within the WBMA each organization will remain autonomous without your "older brothers telling us what to do".  That is a very noble idea, but that also leaves the door wide open for an individual group leader to do virtually anything he wishes and there is nothing that the WBMA can or would do if that action is highly offensive to some members within the larger organization.  This is a an open-ended invitation for abuse without any sactions.  

Would people be prevented from attending WBMA functions if they are members of an organization that does not have an affiliation with the WBMA?  

Morgan


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## Brian R. VanCise

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Good Luck and Best Wishes
> 
> :asian:


 
Yes, the best of luck and good wishes!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Dan Anderson

Morgan said:
			
		

> Dear Master Anderson,
> 
> *1. *May I inquire as to how others might join the WBMA? When you speak of "founding members" there is an implied suggestion that others might become members, but you have not mentioned if or how that might occur.
> 
> *2. *Is membership by group or individual status? The inference is toward group membership. I ask this question because I might be inclined to seek membership for myself, but my teacher is definately inclined to avoid memberships in any organization because she hates "politics".
> 
> *3. *Further you state that each organization within the WBMA each organization will remain autonomous without your "older brothers telling us what to do". That is a very noble idea, but that also leaves the door wide open for an individual group leader to do virtually anything he wishes and there is nothing that the WBMA can or would do if that action is highly offensive to some members within the larger organization. This is a an open-ended invitation for abuse without any sactions.
> 
> *4. *Would people be prevented from attending WBMA functions if they are members of an organization that does not have an affiliation with the WBMA?
> 
> Morgan


Hi Morgan,

Questions *1&2* could be better answered by Dieter Knuttel as I think he is closer to the actual organizational end than I am. He is in closer communication with the Senior Masters in the PI. Personally I believe that single memberships should be allowed as well as group memberships. There are a number of individuals practicing Modern Arnis without affiliation. Remy Presas taught literally thousands of people.

*#3*. Yes, in theory, this could happen. We discussed this and the basic thing that is a requisite is that any member group is following the Professor's legacy. What might that be? Simple. Technically speaking there are certain technqiues and terminology that was used in Modern Arnis that should be used in member groups. Whether the terms are in Tagalog or English, they should be used. Another might be the anyos. There are 8 empty hand anyos and 4 cane anyos. They would be taught. I think the original 7 tapes, the Black Belt magazine tapes, and the latter day tapi-tapi tapes (when they are available) would be guides to the material to be taught as well as all three books RP wrote.

This would not stop someone from innovating within their school, as I have and as Dieter has, as long as one was teaching Modern Arnis.

It was covered, however, that if one were to go off and do what you fear, they would be exited from the group.

*#4*. Absolutely not. The concept here is inclusion, not exclusion.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Morgan

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Morgan,
> 
> Questions *1&2* could be better answered by Dieter Knuttel as I think he is closer to the actual organizational end than I am. He is in closer communication with the Senior Masters in the PI. Personally I believe that single memberships should be allowed as well as group memberships. There are a number of individuals practicing Modern Arnis without affiliation. Remy Presas taught literally thousands of people.
> 
> *#3*. Yes, in theory, this could happen. We discussed this and the basic thing that is a requisite is that any member group is following the Professor's legacy. What might that be? Simple. Technically speaking there are certain technqiues and terminology that was used in Modern Arnis that should be used in member groups. Whether the terms are in Tagalog or English, they should be used. Another might be the anyos. There are 8 empty hand anyos and 4 cane anyos. They would be taught. I think the original 7 tapes, the Black Belt magazine tapes, and the latter day tapi-tapi tapes (when they are available) would be guides to the material to be taught as well as all three books RP wrote.
> 
> This would not stop someone from innovating within their school, as I have and as Dieter has, as long as one was teaching Modern Arnis.
> 
> It was covered, however, that if one were to go off and do what you fear, they would be exited from the group.
> 
> *#4*. Absolutely not. The concept here is inclusion, not exclusion.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Thanks, Master Anderson, for your reply and clarifications.  At this time, I am going to take a wait aand see position with regard to the WBMA.  As my father use to tell me quite often "Good intentions must be followed up with good deeds."  I'll have to give the members of the newly created WBMA some time and watch to see if their actios are as good as the words of the organizational preamble.

Respectfully yours,

Morgan


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## Dan Anderson

Morgan said:
			
		

> Thanks, Master Anderson, for your reply and clarifications. At this time, I am going to take a wait aand see position with regard to the WBMA. As my father use to tell me quite often "Good intentions must be followed up with good deeds." I'll have to give the members of the newly created WBMA some time and watch to see if their actios are as good as the words of the organizational preamble.
> 
> Respectfully yours,
> 
> Morgan


Hi Morgan,

I understand about the wait & see attitude.  We are a new org and will strive to live up to our aims.

Yours, 
Dan Anderson


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## Dieter

Hi Morgan,

you do ask some good questions.
Originally the brotherhood was formed for organisations. We did not really think about individuall memberschip.  
We are now debating this and hope to come to a good result, especially we do not want to create conflicts with for example your instructor,  who would not want to join but might be offended  if you join in. So we must create something for individuals, that makes clear, that we appreciate the support of  individuals, but are not in competition with any "normal" organisation, because the WBMA does not stand for a certain style of Modern Arnis, like MA80, CSSD/SC, IMAF inc., DAV, WMAA of Tim Hartman or WMAC of Kelly Worden ect. Ther are many more as you know.
They all stand for a specific was, how Modern Arnis is interpreted and trained, which is the way the head instructors were taught by Professor Presas during the time, they learned under him.

The WBMA was founded in the spirit, to be above these Modern Anris styles. This does not mean that it is superior, but more that is serves as an umbrella above these all independent organisations. We all have a common teacher who taught many different way during his long career. The WBMA wants to acknowledge all different versions of Modern Arnis to show, that we  do not want to drift further apart, but come back together at least a bit, and that we do not want to stand for further separating the former unified Art of Modern Arnis. We want to make a positive impact in the Modern Anris world, because we truly are worldwide.

We have to find a way to fit in individual members here, because you cannot learn or get certified in WBMA Modern Anris because there is not such a style. So the best way would be to become a member of a WBMA affiliated organisation, but this again might result in a conflict with your teacher, who might think you are not loyal to her. This nsituation is not easy. So we will have to find a way how to solve this problem.

Thanks for your valid questions. They made us think.



Regards


Dieter Knüttel


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## Mark Lynn

Dieter

I too would be interested in seeing something for individuals who are not part of larger organizations.  Although I have indirectly supported different Modern Arnis groups/organizations by attending their seminars over the years, I am not currently part of any Modern Arnis organization. 

Joining a member organization just to join the WBMA I believe is a bit excessive.  And trying to create my own organization of me, myself and I just to join the WBMA is just to much of a hassel.  

I am glad to see an organization like this being formed though. 

Mark


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## sanggot

...does the Brotherhood got a leader?


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## chris arena

What about MARPIO? How can you have an organization without the family members? If I died tommorrow, I would expect my family to carry on my name first and formost. The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name. We all know this and for the life of me, I can't understand why this is bieng ignored. All of the seperate Modern Arnis groups do have the right to carry on exactly as they are now and this is great. What you have built is deserving of future growth. I have full respect for all Modern Arnis groups EXCEPT for this one area of contention. But if you close the door to the family, you are really missing the point.

I hope that I am missing something here and that MARPIO is included within this organization. But, if not, then you guys better go back to the drawing board. 

Chris Arena


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## The Game

Highest rank is Senior Master?

How do the MOTT's and DATU's fit in to the mix?


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## Dan Anderson

Currently the adminstrative chairman is Rene Tongson.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## sanggot

...also missings are other Datus of Modern Arnis
may i ask why they are not included?


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## Dan Anderson

Chris & Sangot 

Datus Hartman, Worden, Hoffman and Inocalla as well as the elder children of Prof. Presas were all invited to come to the 1st Remy Presas Memorial Training Camp.  I do not know about Datu Jornales.  They didn't make it to the camp.  The WBMA was formulated at the camp.  Master Brian Zawilinski was in attendence as well.  None of the Datus are excluded.  It's just that none of the above Datus nor the elder Presas children were there to join up in the first place.  That's all.  

This is not intended to be an exclusionary organization.  Those, however, who do not wish to participate do so of their own decision.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - The second paragraph is my opinion from what went on in the PI when the organization was formed.


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## Dieter

Hi,

here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.

Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay separate. 
For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to the WBMA secretariat. 

Regarding this:


> The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name. We all know this



Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP in the Philippines to continue and the  old master in the Philippines and he never told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.
So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than MARPPIO either. Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we are not putting down any other groups at all. 
But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each other.

And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we founded the WBMA.
So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.

Regarding titles:
GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't know. 
Professor Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or put down people.

But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every group is independent within the WBMA. 
If  for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example)  Datu is the highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right or wrong. Or the other way around.
When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.

In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. (Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this. 
But  this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is independent.



Boar Man:
Hi Mark,

I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent organisations, who do have all this.
So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a WBMA member organisation.

If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or just be a "silent member".
Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it this way.


So much for now

Dieter Knuettel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.


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## Morgan

Hello Master Dieter,

Ive waited a few days before responding to your post.  I wanted to give the people who have more time and insights into Modern Arnis than myself the opportunity to post their own comments.  Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations.  You wrote:

>Hi,
>
>here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.
>
>Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
>If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. >Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA >is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If >there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay >separate.  For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they >may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to >the WBMA secretariat.

Its really impossible to argue with your position given that invitations were issued and a number of people/organizations declined to accept those invitations or to participate, therefore there can not be an argument about exclusion. 

>Regarding this:
>Quote:
>
>>The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name.

Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis.  When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named Presas because he was born to Professors daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the childs name to Presas.  According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession.  So the statement being quoted above is in error.

Master Dieter you also wrote:

>Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP >in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never >told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each >other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.


Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement.  Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you.  And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open!  Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said.  He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true.  This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another.  Things really went crazy after his death.
>So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was >under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than >MARPPIO either. 

There is another potential problem!  Wasnt MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas?  The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his lifes work, but perhaps not their organization.  A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.

>Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the >Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we >are not putting down any other groups at all. 

Youve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas.  Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference?  Its also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing serious and good work into your statement.  You might want to clean up that idea as well. 

>But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" >which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each >other.


Bravo, youre right on target, bulls-eye, dead center and all of that stuff.  There is too much fighting and no where near enough unity and commonality of purpose among those people claiming Modern Arnis as their mother-art.  The WBMA is in fact a solid first toward getting some of the fighting out of the way.  Of course there will be people who are opposed to the project but that is the way things happen in life.

>And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we >founded the WBMA.  So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just >decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that >this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.


In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art.  In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept.  The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers. 

>Regarding titles:
>GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last >step below Grandmaster.  If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't >know. 

If the article that I mentioned above written by Datu Worden is any indication of Professors inclinations regarding the GM title, then it is a family heirloom and reserved for a family member.  So the WBMA membership is correct  and completely in concert with the spirit and intentions of Professor when they regard Senior Master as the highest title in Modern Arnis for non-family players.  Nor should that be considered as a bad thing.  GM is a difficult title to have and use effectively.  There are a lot of demands made on the people who hold the title. 
>Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, >Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well >imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that >the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or >put down people.

It was never a matter of hurting or putting people down, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter.  Given what youve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system.  He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out.  It was a classic divide and conquer strategy.  People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend.  Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis!  In the end who did everyone look to and embrace?  Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another.  And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isnt a hierarchy established for them.  For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis.  In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art.  If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldnt excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?

Dont get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someones tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit Skill Is Rank.  I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills! 


>But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.

Youe absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be.  It doesnt really matter what Professor said or did in the past.  That was then, he is gone, its a new day and a new era.  The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.

>If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around.  When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.


Individual groups and their leaders cant ask for anything better.

>In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this. 
>But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.

This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.

>Boar Man:
>Hi Mark,
>
>I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
>It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
>So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
>
>If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
>Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
>
>So much for now
>
>Dieter Knuettel
>Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.

I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.  

If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is.  Of course, like Boar Man, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization.  But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.

Morgan


----------



## arnisador

The use of the datu title remains somewhat contentious, it seems! Well, it was the Professor's choice to use it.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi Morgan,

I'll jump into the conversation, if you don't mind.




> Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations.





> Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis. When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named Presas because he was born to Professors daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the childs name to Presas. According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession. So the statement being quoted above is in error.


 
Mr. Worden's article is _one_ of the statements Prof. Presas made prior to his death about carrying on the art. From my understanding, Prof. Presas' last will also named Jeffery Delaney and Randi Shea as Grandmasters of Modern Arnis as well. He also asked Tim Hartman to carry it on while he was in Germany. I, nor anyone else that I know, will dispute what Mr. Wroden claims in his article. Prof. Presas charged others with carrying on the art as well.




> Master Dieter you also wrote:





> _Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP in the __Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups._
> 
> 
> *1*Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement. Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you.
> 
> *2*And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open! Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said. He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true. This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another. Things really went crazy after his death.


 
Both one and two pretty much say it.




> _So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than MARPPIO either. _





> There is another potential problem! Wasnt MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas? The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his lifes work, but perhaps not their organization. A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.


 
Yes. MARPPIO was founded after the death of Prof. Presas. The Presas kids were not charged with carrying on his organization, which at the time was IMAF.




> _Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we are not putting down any other groups at all. _





> Youve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? Its also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing serious and good work into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.


 
Better mark that up to English being a second language for Dieter. There is no implication being made of any kind. I was there at the founding of the WBMA and it was very clear that there was NO impications being made like this. 




> In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.


Yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear - yes.




> I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.


It is a title he was awarded by Prof. Presas and he uses it. The same with me and the title of Senior Master.




> If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like Boar Man, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.


 
Well, it's not fully settled if WBMA is just an organization comprised of organizations. People like the Boar Man would be a great addition to the group. I've worked with him and he's good people.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Morgan[/quote]


----------



## Rich Parsons

Morgan said:


> Hello Master Dieter,
> 
> I&#8217;ve waited a few days before responding to your post. I wanted to give the people who have more time and insights into Modern Arnis than myself the opportunity to post their own comments. Since no one has done so, I will now make my own observations. You wrote:
> 
> >Hi,
> >
> >here some answers to topics, that were touched in this thread.
> >
> >Regarding MARPPIO and other groups.
> >If you invite groups and there is no answer, they seemed not to be interested. >Serveral groups have followed the inviation and came, several did not. The WBMA >is not a closed club and we hope, that other organisations will follow to join. If >there is no sign of cooperation though it is fine for us, if they want to stay >separate. For an organization who wish to be admitted to the Brotherhood, they >may submit a self accomplished information form together with a letter of intent to >the WBMA secretariat.
> 
> It&#8217;s really impossible to argue with your position given that invitations were issued and a number of people/organizations declined to accept those invitations or to participate, therefore there can not be an argument about exclusion.
> 
> >Regarding this:
> >Quote:
> >
> >>The Professor wanted the son to carry on the name.
> 
> Actually I seem to recall an article published in Inside Kung Fu last year in which Datu Kelly Worden claims that Professor Presas stated before his death that he wanted his son(s) to train his grandson (his/their nephew) to become the next GM of Modern Arnis. When it was pointed out that the grandson was not named &#8220;Presas&#8221; because he was born to Professor&#8217;s daughter and her husband his instructions to his children were to change the child&#8217;s name to &#8220;Presas&#8221;. According to Datu Worden, Professor also gave the grandson his personal black belt as a gift and token of succession. So the statement being quoted above is in error.
> 
> Master Dieter you also wrote:
> 
> >Well it is also very clear, that he told the MOTTS to continue and he told the IMAFP >in the Philippines to continue and the old master in the Philippines and he never >told any group about what he told the other and in what relation they are to each >other. This is one of the problems, why there are so many different groups.
> 
> 
> Now you have opened a potential can of worms with the above statement and it appears that there are numerous others who apparently agree with your statement. Otherwise there would have been a chorus of posts correcting you. And your last sentence clearly puts the problem right out in the open! Professor Presas was not a good organizational leader because he refused to step up and say what needed to be said. He waffled and avoided making firm positive decisions therefore a lot of people were led to believe things that were not necessarily true. This in turn pitted some individuals and groups against one another. Things really went crazy after his death.
> >So MARPPIO is neither better nor more original than any other group, that was >under the Professor. On the other side, the other groups are not better than >MARPPIO either.
> 
> There is another potential problem! Wasn&#8217;t MARPPIO founded after the death of Professor Presas? The adult children of Professor might have been charged by their father to carry on his life&#8217;s work, but perhaps not their organization. A minor nit-pick, I admit, but it is better to have all of the data correct in order to facilitate a full and open discussion based on the actual facts, not speculations and conjectures.
> 
> >Many groups have the right to say, that they are continuing the legacy of the >Professor. And many of them do serious and good work for Modern Arnis. So we >are not putting down any other groups at all.
> 
> You&#8217;ve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? It&#8217;s also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing &#8220;serious and good work&#8221; into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.
> 
> >But if everybody claims to be THE right group whe only have fights for the "lead" >which in reality is no lead, because it only separates people and groups from each >other.
> 
> 
> Bravo, you&#8217;re right on target, bulls-eye, dead center and all of that stuff. There is too much fighting and no where near enough unity and commonality of purpose among those people claiming Modern Arnis as their mother-art. The WBMA is in fact a solid first toward getting some of the fighting out of the way. Of course there will be people who are opposed to the project but that is the way things happen in life.
> 
> >And to work afgainst this separation, and to join forces a little bit, this is why we >founded the WBMA. So also the WBMA is not a better group than others. We just >decided, that it is better to work together than stay separate and we belive, that >this is in the spirit of Professor Presas.
> 
> 
> In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.
> 
> >Regarding titles:
> >GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last >step below Grandmaster.  If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't >know.
> 
> If the article that I mentioned above written by Datu Worden is any indication of Professor&#8217;s inclinations regarding the GM title, then it is a family heirloom and reserved for a family member. So the WBMA membership is correct and completely in concert with the spirit and intentions of Professor when they regard &#8220;Senior Master&#8221; as the highest title in Modern Arnis for non-family players. Nor should that be considered as a bad thing. GM is a difficult title to have and use effectively. There are a lot of demands made on the people who hold the title.
> >Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, >Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well >imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that >the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or >put down people.
> 
> It was never a matter of &#8216;hurting or putting people down&#8217;, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter. Given what you&#8217;ve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system. He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out. It was a classic &#8220;divide and conquer&#8221; strategy. People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend. Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis! In the end who did everyone look to and embrace? Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another. And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isn&#8217;t a hierarchy established for them. For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis. In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art. If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldn&#8217;t excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?
> 
> Don&#8217;t get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someone&#8217;s tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit &#8220;Skill Is Rank&#8221;. I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills!
> 
> 
> >But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.
> 
> You&#8217;e absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be. It doesn&#8217;t really matter what Professor said or did in the past. That was then, he is gone, it&#8217;s a new day and a new era. The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.
> 
> >If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around. When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.
> 
> 
> Individual groups and their leaders can&#8217;t ask for anything better.
> 
> >In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
> >But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.
> 
> This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.
> 
> >Boar Man:
> >Hi Mark,
> >
> >I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
> >It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
> >So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
> >
> >If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
> >Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
> >
> >So much for now
> >
> >Dieter Knuettel
> >Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.
> 
> I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.
> 
> If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like &#8220;Boar Man&#8221;, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.
> 
> Morgan




Morgan,

This is not an attack on you. Nor am I trying to cause a problem here.

I heard the Lisa Mc Manus's (* Whom I have nothing to gain by mentioning her name or associations *) son was also mentioned to  a possible GM in the future if he trained hard enough. 

I myself in '86/'87 was offered by the Late GM Remy A Presas to go with him to Sweden, and become a Protege. Now as Uncle Rocky already had that priviledge I knew that it would be lots of great training. But I chose to stay in college and continue work towards my degree. What that means for me is absolutely nothing other than someone said I could be if I left school and spent time traveling with him. As to the continued training while in school and seeing when ever I could. 

I know he gave out titles and rank and also made people feel good for their efforts to train and to work. I know he had desires to want everyone to carry on his life's work.  (* No disrespect to anyone with a title from GM Presas or those who have Rank as well or both. *) I saw him talk to people including kids to try to get the hooked on Modern Arnis and to capture the passion for it. 

So no disrespect to you and everyone else that believes wants or wishes for a family member to be at the head of everything Modern Arnis. As you stated there already are organizations, and there will be and are people who will train with and or all of them for GM Remy A Presas told them all to teach and to go forward, at least from most of the leaders of the orgs I have talked too. 

Now, I do extend respect to the family, and I do honest wish them the best.








***** My apologies Dan and Dieter and MT for being slightly off topic. *****


----------



## Morgan

arnisador said:


> The use of the datu title remains somewhat contentious, it seems! Well, it was the Professor's choice to use it.


 
Maybe for some, but I merely made an observation about a bit of an inconsistancy within Master Dieter's post, as I saw it.

Morgan


----------



## Morgan

Rich Parsons said:


> Morgan,
> 
> This is not an attack on you. Nor am I trying to cause a problem here.
> 
> I heard the Lisa Mc Manus's (* Whom I have nothing to gain by mentioning her name or associations *) son was also mentioned to a possible GM in the future if he trained hard enough.
> 
> I myself in '86/'87 was offered by the Late GM Remy A Presas to go with him to Sweden, and become a Protege. Now as Uncle Rocky already had that priviledge I knew that it would be lots of great training. But I chose to stay in college and continue work towards my degree. What that means for me is absolutely nothing other than someone said I could be if I left school and spent time traveling with him. As to the continued training while in school and seeing when ever I could.
> 
> I know he gave out titles and rank and also made people feel good for their efforts to train and to work. I know he had desires to want everyone to carry on his life's work. (* No disrespect to anyone with a title from GM Presas or those who have Rank as well or both. *) I saw him talk to people including kids to try to get the hooked on Modern Arnis and to capture the passion for it.
> 
> So no disrespect to you and everyone else that believes wants or wishes for a family member to be at the head of everything Modern Arnis. As you stated there already are organizations, and there will be and are people who will train with and or all of them for GM Remy A Presas told them all to teach and to go forward, at least from most of the leaders of the orgs I have talked too.
> 
> Now, I do extend respect to the family, and I do honest wish them the best.
> 
> ***** My apologies Dan and Dieter and MT for being slightly off topic. *****


 
Thanks for the new bits of information that I was unaware of about Ms. McManus's son and the "protege" title.  Your post merely supports my contentions and in no way are we in a disagreement.  As for the family member leading the Modern Arnis system, I was merely refering to the Datu Worden article, not expressing any wish, need, desire or hope on my part.  Any one or group of people can lead Modern Arnis as far as I'm concerned.  From what has gone on since I began reading this forum 3 years ago that are an ample number of people claiming to be the leader.

Morgan

Morgan


----------



## Dan Anderson

Morgan said:


> From what has gone on since I began reading this forum 3 years ago that are an ample number of people claiming to be the leader.
> 
> Morgan


 
Hi Morgan,

That _has_ gone on but it is more accurate to say that in Modern Arnis, there are leaders.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dieter

Hi Morgan,

you do read very carefully.

I try to answer some of your questions, that I feel are still open, because Dan answered quite a lot as well.

In regarding the article of Datu Kelly, as well the protege and son of Lisa McManus. 
I know the story of his grandson Carlos. Just I got it from Roland Dantes, who was also there. And he told me, that  Remy said this in a way a grandfathe says it lovingly to his grandson:  "So you will be the next Grandmaster of Modern Arnis?" 
And not is a way: "I declare to the rest of the worls: This will be the new grandmaster"
Thhis gives another touch to this story, at least for me.



> Quote:
> 
> Youve made an implication that there are some groups that do not have the right to say that they are carrying on the legacy of professor Presas. Are you sure that you want to make that kind of inference? Its also possible to read a second inference regarding some groups that are not doing serious and good work into your statement. You might want to clean up that idea as well.
> Dan:
> Better mark that up to English being a second language for Dieter. There is no implication being made of any kind. I was there at the founding of the WBMA and it was very clear that there was NO impications being made like this.



Thanks Dan this is correct. No intentions against other groups.
We are all doing the work in continuing the legacy of Professor presas and the Modern Arnis.



> In actual fact the WBMA just might be working above and beyond the spirit of Professor because you are attempting to work toward a common good for the entire body of people who are involved in studying, training in and teaching the art. In spite of your best efforts there will be some people resisting and rejecting the concept. The WBMA will have to persist and carry on regardless of those nay-sayers.



You are right and we will, as Dan also said. (Btw: did he say: Yes?)
But I am sure, in the futire the lable: "Member of the WBMA" will be a quality feature for otganisation and groups. There will be groups, who have it and there will be groups who don't have it.

Well, regarding the Grandmaster title, there will never again be THE Grandmaster of Modern Arnis. But my opinion is (this is not an official WBMA statement, but my personal opinion), and I know that other people have others, that it is no problem to have several Grandmasters in a style. In Germany, Karate, Judo, Ju-Jutsu, Taekwondo, almost all of the established styles regard everybody with 6th Dan and higher as a Grandmaster. Well, "a" Grandmaster, not "the" Grandmaster. I have written how we handle it in the DAV, but that is a DAV policy, not a WBMA policy.



> It was never a matter of hurting or putting people down, if I am reading your statements correctly, Master Dieter. Given what youve said early on in your post and given my understanding of leadership qualities, Professor, avoided taking responsibility for making hard, difficult decisions as the head of the system. He in effect left things for you and others to fuss over and figure out. It was a classic divide and conquer strategy. People fought one another for perks and leading roles in Modern Arnis, while viewing professor as some sort of hero and legend. Look at all of the arguing, fighting, politics and titles that have been strung out over the history of Modern Arnis! In the end who did everyone look to and embrace? Yet very few of the so-called leadership people, MOTTS, Datus, PGs, SMs and the like are well respected and supported by one another. And in the end, given all of the titles that have floated around Modern Arnis there isnt a hierarchy established for them. For instance, the MOTTS title seems to indicate tat it is the highest level of the physical art. Yet that distinction even if true does not mean that the MOTTS have the clearest and most complete understanding of the foundations Modern Arnis. In fact that title does not designate the MOTTS as good, better or the best teachers of the art. If the art is going to survive and prosper over several generations wouldnt excellent instruction be preferable to high titles and visibility of individual people?



Well, the tiltes, and each and every one of it, was a sign, that the professor valued the person, he gave the tile to. If they are good teachers, have all the Modern Arnis wisdom in the world or are good leaders, the tiles do not really say. The allmust have impressed the Professor in one way or the other, bacause he had thousands of students, and in the end only a handfull who he gave titles to.
Perhaps in 5 or 10 years, you will see, who is a leader. Who followed the path through. Who was active and leading. Who produced students and which quality are they. Where does Modern Arnis grow and who supported this. So time and activities will separate the leaders from the non leaders. Having a tile may help at the beginning, but you have to do the work for yourself, you title will not do it for you in the end. 



> Dont get me wrong, rank and titles are important as incentives and rewards but as someones tee-shirt read at the recent Buffalo Martial Arts Summit Skill Is Rank. I would much rather study with and train under a lesser known, lower ranked, highly skilled teacher than a well know, high ranked person with an impressive title and marginal teaching skills!



There is no automatism, that a higher ranked person has lesser skill.
I hear your argument often, but chances are good, that higher ranked persons have more years of experience in the art and in teaching. Just because one in lower ranked, that dies not mean he is better.

We have a saying in Germany: "Rather poor and healthy than rich and sick" Good so far, but I'd rather be rich and healthy than poor and sick. You understand?
So I belivethe chances are pretty good, that a higher ranked person is at least not worse than a lower ranked. But I am not talking about 1 or 2 degrees. I am talking about 7 - 9th degrees compared to 4th and 5th copmpared to 1srt and 2nd degrees. I hope you understand what I mean. 

But I agree that in the end, quality is more important thwan rank and titles. but usually the people with rank and titles got it for a reason. 



> >But we have to live with that situation. And we in the WBMA do. We could start >fighting about this now, but who cares. And we don't care if in one organisation it is >this way and in the other it is different. There is no hirachy within the WBMA. Every >group is independent within the WBMA.
> 
> Youe absolutely right, the WBMA is taking the matter from where it is to where they want it to be. It doesnt really matter what Professor said or did in the past. That was then, he is gone, its a new day and a new era. The WBMA has to chart a new course and avoid all of the pit-falls that has derailed cooperation in the past.



This is what we are trying to do.



> >If for example in the WMAA (not part of the WBMA, just as an example) Datu is the >highest title below the Grandmaster, then it is like that for the WMAA. That does >not mean, that on the floor a Senior Master can tell a Datu or a Mott what is right >or wrong. Or the other way around. When we have a WBMA meeting, everybody is >the same anyway. Everybody has one vote, no matter what title.
> 
> 
> Individual groups and their leaders cant ask for anything better.



This is  the only way, that an organisation like the WBMA will succeed. No domination from one group over the other. If one groups would try that, would kill the WBMA immediately.



> >In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th >Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. >(Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior >Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got >personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this.
> >But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be >handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is >independent.
> 
> This Last statement leads me to believe that GM Tongson actually said for than you have reported with regard to the Datu title, but perhaps that is best left for another day.



Sorry Morgan, I do not understand what you want to say with your statement. Please try again with other words.



> >I can understand what you wrote, and I see the problems you have with joining in. >But at the moment the WBMA is an organisation for organisations.
> >It is not designed for individual members. The WBMA does not have a curriculum, >no gradings, no WBMA style, because the WBMA lives through the independent >organisations, who do have all this.
> >So at the moment, if you want to support the idea of the WBMA, please join a >WBMA member organisation.
> >
> >If you do not want to join an american orgaisation, join the IMAFP for example. Or >just be a "silent member".
> >Sorry not to give you any other answer, but at the moment we have to handle it >this way.
> >
> 
> If the WBMA was devised and designed to be an organization of organizations then that is the way it is. Of course, like Boar Man, that leaves me out since I do not belong to any arnis organization. But the clarifications that you have made are helpful and appreciated.



We see the point. Dan also says, we need individual membership for people like you anbd Mark (boar man), who support the idea and are not members of a group. And ther3e are thousands of people like you in the USA. Not member in a WBMA organisation.
But at the moment we cannot offer a solution. We are at the very beginning of the WBMA yet. Let us try to eastablish the original idea. Once he wave done that, we may come up with a solution for the individual members. Something like a Membershipo for individual supporters of the WBAM. Or an newly to found "group of individual members of the WBMA".

Give us time. We cannot do everything at the beginning. We have to learn, grow and see, what is possible and what not. Perhaps we can come up with a solution in the future.




> >So much for now
> >
> >Dieter Knuettel
> >Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.
> 
> I do find it somewhat curious that although the IMAFP, WBMA and your own DAV, do not recognize the Datu title, you none the less have signed off using the same, Master Dieter.




Stop! Who said, that these organisations do not recognize the DATU title?
There is just no automatism how to get it. I am personally very proud of being one of the selected 6 Datus, that Professor Presas choose.
In the Philippines, I am VERY often approached as "Datu Dieter", from Black Belts ther and even from Grandmasters like Rodel Dagooc or SM Bambit Dulay. GM Rene Tongson prefers to approach me with Senior Master, which is perfectly ok with me too.
In the DAV we also follw GM Remys wish. He told my most advanced students (5th Dan at that time), that I shall be approached with "Datu" during the training, Then the board of directors in the DAV decided (without me, I was not part of that decision), that we handle it this way. So during the training I will be approached with "Datu" and not with "Dieter", like I handle it before and after the training. This is out of respect to the wishes of GM Presas.


And within the WBMA: What I ment with we don't care is, that the title does not make us better or higher. We do have our responisbilities and qualities and we respect them. And we also do respect the titles we got from the Professor. We just do not use them, to "outplay" others like: "I am  (insert any title you want here) so I know it has to be this or that way".
When we are in the groups of the founders of the WBMA, we respect us for what we are. As people, as masters as (insert any title here again) and especially as fellow Modern Arnisadors and friends.   

I hope this cleared up a few points.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis

or just Dieter


----------



## SM Cristino Vasquez

Hello Dieter:
I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system 
why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
_Per your Quote regarding titles:
GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
If that was the same thing for GM Remy Presas we don't know. 
Professor Remy never did put down in writing, how the the relation between the MOTTS, Datus, Senior Masters and Punog Guros for example, are. And I can very well imagine, that in 1 to 1 talks, the Professor would always give the impression, that the title of the person he is just talking to, is the highest. He never liked to hurt or put down people..........,...

In the DAV for example, the Datu title is out of the hirachy anyway. For us, 6th Dan is Master, 7th Dan is Senior Master and 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster. (Which by the way was discussed and approved by the Professor) So I am Senior Master by my rank, 7th Dan. The Datu title on the other hand is something, I got personally from the Professor and there is no automatism how to get this. 
But this is how WE handle it in the DAV. This does not mean, that it has to be handeled the same way in other groups of the WBMA, because each group is independent.&#8221;.....

SM Cristino Vasquez
Lakan 9 Modern Arnis_


----------



## Guro Harold

Mod Note:

Please keep posts on topic.

Welcome posts moved to appropriate thread.

Thanks,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


----------



## Dieter

SM Cristino Vasquez said:


> Hello Dieter:
> I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
> why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
> SM Cristino Vasquez
> Lakan 9 Modern Arnis



Hello GM, SM as you like, Cristino,

no problem.
There are several aspects to that.
The first is, that we in the DAV have this ranking system (1 - 5th Dan Experts, 6th -7th Dan Master, (7th Senior Master), 8th - 10th Dan Grandmaster) since the late 80s. We have it in print since this in our theory program. It came from the times, when we were with GM Ernesto, who still handles it this way.

When we joined GM Remy in 1993, we discussed with him many matters regarding the association. So we also discussed this ranking system with him and asked, if it is correct to handle it this way. He said yes, this is ok, no problem. I was the one who talked with him about this so I know.

Second, for I understand that you out of respect to GM Remy do not claim to be a Grandmaster in Modern Arnis honors you for your humble attitude, but we still see you as one, just like GM  Rene, GM Rodel, GM Jerry. They might not request this title in Modern Arnis for themselves, but in our eyes they are.

Third, I just disagree with the attitude, that only the founder can be a Grandmaster. Sorry, but I think this is not right. I can understand and respect your position, but it is not mine. If all styles would handle this matter this way, there would be no grandmasters in the world after the founders died. There woud be no Grandmasters in Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, Judo, Ju-Jutsu or to go into FMA in Doce Pares etc. Most of the japanese and korean systems have the Grandmaster title connected to the 6th Dan (I think too low). Everybody with 6th Dan  (some even with th 4th Dan, which I think is far too low) and above is a Grandmaster. We are living in a competetive world. Systems and structures are being compared with each other. So people do not really understand, that a system has 8th or 9th Dan who are not Grandmasters. 

Also, GM Remy announced Randi Shea and Jeffrey Delaney as Co-Grandmasters. These were only 5th Dans or even only got 5th Dan at that time. So I think, that you, Rene, Rodel, Jerry etc, so people who are 10 to 30 years longer in the art than Randy or Jeff (no disrespect to those) would deserve at least the same tiltle, but not a tilte below that.
I think you seniors in the Philippines deserve, to be respected as Grandmasters for your 30 and 40 years of continuous practice and instruction in the art of Modern Arnis. And I have stated, that this is MY and the DAV position and not the official WBMA position.

It is really a matter, how one defines a Grandmaster. And the definition can be different.

Here some you can find in Wikipedia:

*Grandmaster* and/or *Grand Master* can mean:

the title of a person Master craftsman who leads a guild or similar fraternal organization
Grand Master (order), the supreme head of various orders of knighthood, either honorary or military orders, where he can even be its head of state
Grand Master (Masonic), head of a Grand Lodge (of Freemasons). See e.g. United Grand Lodge of England
Some other organisations, such as the civilian households of certain princely courts, designate a most senior dignitary as Grand Master
A title acknowledging important or superior talent, e.g. in chess, or Grandmaster (martial arts), a title applied to an individual who has mastered a single style or has created an original, functional style. See also: iemoto
So as one can see, that it can have different meanings.
You interpretation is the one, that a Grandmaster is a person who has founded a style. For us, this is would be the founder and Grandmaster.
We define a Grandmaster, as someone, who has mastered a single style or heads a group or organisation. 
The way we see it, a Grandmaster must not be the founder of a style. This is, how most of the mayor Martial Arts organisations and styles worldwide handle this titel.
Some five years ago I made this a topic here on martial talk. I called this the difference between THE Grandmaster (Founder) and A Grandmaster (senior players).

As stated in the mission statement of the WBMA, all associations are considered as autonomous organizations, who can handle their affairs the way they think is correct. Obviously, when there are several groups and people, not everybody always has the same opinion about everything. 

So maybe we disagree on this specific topic, in my very personal opinion, your modesty in this matter gives me even more respect to you. 
A respect, a Grandmaster deserves.

Respect to you and all the seniors in the Philippines


Dieter Knüttel
Datu and Senior Master of Modern Arnis.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Dieter,

That was a very nice post on how you handle things in the DAV!  Thanks for you input.


----------



## Guro Harold

Hi Dieter,

Thanks for the informative post!

The only thing respectfully that I must add is that Dr. Shea and Mr Delaney were named, "Co-Successors" in Nov 2000. This wording was also spoken to me by Jeff Delaney when I saw him in Leatherhead, England when this was decided.

Interesting enough, this announcement was made only in the context of IMAF, INC (even the dual retirements).

Best regards,

Harold


----------



## sanggot

SM Cristino Vasquez said:


> Hello Dieter:
> I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
> why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
> _Per your Quote regarding titles:_
> _GM Rene Tongson stated, that for him in the Philippines, Senior Master is the last step below Grandmaster.
> SM Cristino Vasquez
> Lakan 9 Modern Arnis_


_

...meaning Gm Tongson is now higher than his teacher SM Cris Vasquez?

 not including GM Ernesto and Roberto Presas , for what I know SM Cris Vasquez is the highest ranking Modern Arnis Masterbut I could be wrong?_


----------



## Rich Parsons

Palusut said:


> Hi Dieter,
> 
> Thanks for the informative post!
> 
> The only thing respectfully that I must add is that Dr. Shea and Mr Delaney were named, "Co-Successors" in Nov 2000. This wording was also spoken to me by Jeff Delaney when I saw him in Leatherhead, England when this was decided.
> 
> Interesting enough, this announcement was made only in the context of IMAF, INC (even the dual retirements).
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Harold



While I respect this may be the accepted history, I believe from some of my  conversations with people that one person was named as the Lead and the other was to assist. The Title or use of  "Co" came about a few days later when the website was changed. I remember reading this a few days later. But I cannot find the differences upon archives for the net. So, I state this as my opinion only, which in its self is not 100% objective as I admit openly. 




But, I did like to read who the DAV organization handles the titles and ranks, thank you Dieter. 

I also believe that if someone wishes to not be called something then their wish should be considered as it is polite aqnd appropriate to respect someone for their desires of not using a title. 

Thank you for the chance to express my points of view.


----------



## Guro Harold

Rich Parsons said:


> While I respect this may be the accepted history, I believe from some of my conversations with people that one person was named as the Lead and the other was to assist. The Title or use of "Co" came about a few days later when the website was changed.


Hi Rich,

Actually from what I recall from Jeff, he stated things in terms as equals with separate roles. Dr Shea was to manage IMAF, Inc from the business side, while Jeff was supposed to continue the teaching aspects.

Also, upon looking at my last post it would lead that the decision was made in Leatherhead, which was not the case, the decision was made just prior, and I saw Jeff in Leatherhead. The Professor was supposed to be in Leatherhead and Venice after his trip to Hamburg, Germany (where he became ill).

Best regards,

Harold


----------



## Cruentus

At this point, the sooner we all realize that titles and rank within each separate organization are only meaningful within the corresponding organization, and completely arbitrary outside of it, the easier it will be to respect each other, without feud or conflict over such matters.

But of course there is nothing wrong with respectfully asking the question, as SM Vasquez had done, because that leads to a better mutual understanding.

Hopefully, my post is completely incidental and only stating the obvious... 

Paul Janulis


----------



## Rich Parsons

Palusut said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> Actually from what I recall from Jeff, he stated things in terms as equals with separate roles. Dr Shea was to manage IMAF, Inc from the business side, while Jeff was supposed to continue the teaching aspects.
> 
> Also, upon looking at my last post it would lead that the decision was made in Leatherhead, which was not the case, the decision was made just prior, and I saw Jeff in Leatherhead. The Professor was supposed to be in Leatherhead and Venice after his trip to Hamburg, Germany (where he became ill).
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Harold



Harold,

Please accept my apologies, for I did not mean to put this thread sideways. 

I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me. For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view. 

So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that. But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *) and has no authority, for if my certs and paperwork are in question, when I have video tape of one of the test and witnesses then his that I have never seen is in question as well. 

Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars. 

I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best. 

If the day was sunny and no clouds in the sky and Jeff stated it as so, I would still go look and verify for myself and wonder what his agenda was for making such a statement. 


So once again I apologize the the new Org of the Brotherhood, and also to those who are trying to have a positive discussion here. If the staff wishes to remove this post as being off topic, I will support such actions, and understand fully. 

Thank you for allowing me to experss my points of view.
:asian:


----------



## Carol

Since by default one must be part of an organization to be part of the Brotherhood, it isn't clear to me why the brotherhood is involved in rank to begin with.


----------



## Edmund BlackAdder

One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.


----------



## Guro Harold

Rich Parsons said:


> I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me.


This is consistent with what he had published on his website from what I recall. He is only recognizing rank from his own organization.



Rich Parsons said:


> For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view.


Was it that he didn't believe or "refused to recognize"? Those are two totally different things.

Opening up a can of worms... Weren't there other individuals who stopped recognizing other groups or organizations and stated basically that their group was the true group? I heard that this was going on internationally.



Rich Parsons said:


> So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that.


He indeed told me this but basically he didn't have to tell me anything. He only knew me from the seminars that we both attended from the Southeast.
The only reason that I mentioned what he told me is that it seemed at one point in time from his words to me that IMAF,Inc and he had the same understanding, so it appeared.



Rich Parsons said:


> But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *)


Understood and that's a personal decision. Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.



Rich Parsons said:


> Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars.


Jeff is doing his thing. God bless him. I do not agree with the titles that they use. Honestly, he is doing more to promote the Professor's art than I am right now so I am in no position to criticize anyone.



Rich Parsons said:


> I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best.


Same here, including supporting the work of Dan Anderson, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, and of course Tuhon Ray.

Rich, please know that I have the utmost respect for you. I do agree with Paul that 





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> the sooner we all realize that titles and rank within each separate organization are only meaningful within the corresponding organization, and completely arbitrary outside of it, the easier it will be to respect each other, without feud or conflict over such matters.



Now translating it to my own words...

It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!


----------



## arnisador

Palusut said:


> Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.



Me too (and I believe that Mr. Parsons meant the same). Unfortunately, people seem to disagree on what rank to recognize from there on!


----------



## Guro Harold

arnisador said:


> Me too (and I believe that Mr. Parsons meant the same).


I'm sure that this is a unique situation.


----------



## Cruentus

Palusut said:


> It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!


 
Damn straight! 

Because, in all seriousness, I don't think Professor would have wanted me to give a damn; not about incidentals like what rank or title someone uses, or the structure of other peoples organizations, and so forth. Who are we helping with what we do? Who's lives are we saving? Who's lives are we improving?

There is just a lot more to give a damn about, that I think that Professor would have rather had me worry about then other incidental matters.

So I guess that depending on ones perspective, it is easy to be apolitical... 

Paul Janulis


----------



## Guro Harold

Tulisan said:


> Damn straight!
> 
> Because, in all seriousness, I don't think Professor would have wanted me to give a damn; not about incidentals like what rank or title someone uses, or the structure of other peoples organizations, and so forth. Who are we helping with what we do? Who's lives are we saving? Who's lives are we improving?
> 
> There is just a lot more to give a damn about, that I think that Professor would have rather had me worry about then other incidental matters.
> 
> So I guess that depending on ones perspective, it is easy to be apolitical...
> 
> Paul Janulis


I agree, Paul!

The Professor would want us to care about Modern Arnis. As students of Modern Arnis, we should care how the Professor is remembered and that Modern Arnis grows. 

Finally, politics reside distinctly within a cohesive group, whose decisions affect our life. Therefore, a certain groups' politics only affect me if I choose to be a part of a certain group, or choose to care, or if there is potential infringement.

Take care,

Harold


----------



## Rich Parsons

Palusut said:


> Was it that he didn't believe or "refused to recognize"? Those are two totally different things.



Rich: I tested in Flint in front of Remy, we would bring him in. 

Jeff: No, that is impossible Remy never tested outside of a camp.

Rich: I have the video tape and the certificates.

Jeff: I do not believe it, it must not be a real certificte. But, if you log into the the website I run and join, then we can talk about testing you, and see if you deserve any rank at all. 

Rich: I am not interested in testing, and have not been for a while.

Jeff: Well if you want any rank at all then you have to come to me or it won't count. 

Rich: I am not interested, as I have my certificates.

Jeff: They must be fake, or not a valid recognized one. 

Rich: *** Walks away before he does something that would require the police to respond ***

A few minutes later:

Rich: Randi (* Dr. Schea *) what is your opinion on testing? (* After discussing my conversation with Jeff where Randi was just listening. *)

Dr. Schea: We plan on not testing for a little while and see where everyone is, and go from there.


The first is nothing I would belong to nor support, and second while in the situation may not seem right, is and was a class act. 





Palusut said:


> Opening up a can of worms... Weren't there other individuals who stopped recognizing other groups or organizations and stated basically that their group was the true group? I heard that this was going on internationally.



I remember something of this, but cannot speak to it with out some research. Some thing stick in your mind while others do not. 



Palusut said:


> He indeed told me this but basically he didn't have to tell me anything. He only knew me from the seminars that we both attended from the Southeast.
> The only reason that I mentioned what he told me is that it seemed at one point in time from his words to me that IMAF,Inc and he had the same understanding, so it appeared.



He may give respect to some, but he gave insult to others or at least me. 



Palusut said:


> Understood and that's a personal decision. Respectfully, I recognize any valid rank granted from GM Presas.



I think the key here is the wording and meaning of Valid. In this case, I use Jeff's definition, as he did not test in front of me, his rank is not recognized nor valid.  All others are given the utmost respect and have no questions.



Palusut said:


> Jeff is doing his thing. God bless him. I do not agree with the titles that they use. Honestly, he is doing more to promote the Professor's art than I am right now so I am in no position to criticize anyone.



The title is actually something I disagree with but is not my issue and really have no problem with anyone who uses for sooner or later they will be called and it will be up to te person using the title to respond properly. 



Palusut said:


> Same here, including supporting the work of Dan Anderson, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, and of course Tuhon Ray.



I included these and more in my generic comments about the titles and those that promote the art. 



Palusut said:


> Rich, please know that I have the utmost respect for you. I do agree with Paul that



Harold, Thank you and I am not sure I deserve it, as you can see I am very human and have my failings.



Palusut said:


> Now translating it to my own words...
> 
> It's easy to be apolitical when you don't give a damn!



In all cases I agree. I just have a personal issue with a single person.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Soooooooooooooooooo anyway, back on topic.

The different organizations have their ranking systems and titles.

WBMA recognizes this and does not intrude in on member organizations and their rnakings.  The Senior Masters in the PI recognize only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas.

I see the validity of Dieter's point that there can be succeeding Grand Masters.

How I see it is each head of their organization can end up being Grand Master of their group or offshoot system.  Rene Tongson and Cristino Vasquez are GM's in arts other than Modern Arnis.  In Modern Arnis they only claim Senior Master title or status.

This is how I see it being played out in the future.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Watch for the upcoming shameless plug on my first commerical DVD.


----------



## sanggot

Dan,
..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong

Being the highest ranking Modern arnis in the phils or IMAFP i think
SM Cris is just concern and want to make sure the whatever information
published in the internet is correct to avoid confusion in the future

............Just my personal thought!

From Web:WBMA

Grandmaster Rene Tongson, Senior Master Bambit Dulay and Ginalyn Relos, all IMAFP, Philippines 
Dayang Edessa Ramos, IMAFP  Switzerland 
Senior Master Dan Anderson, MA80, USA, who also spoke for 
Senior Master Bram Frank (he was sick that night) and the CSSD/SC, USA, 
Datu and Senior Master Dieter Knuettel and Philipp Wolf, DAV, Germany 
Alexander Pisarkin, RAF, Russia 
Master of Tapi-Tapi Brian Zawilinski, IMAF Inc., USA 
*Re: Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis* 
​Currently the adminstrative chairman is Rene Tongson.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
__________________




SM Cristino Vasquez said:


> Hello Dieter:
> I read about your posts and comments with regards to the ranking system
> why are you addressing GM those ranked 8 to 10 Dan while I myself am claiming to be only a Senior Master in Modern Arnis please clarify with regards to this matter.
> 
> SM Cristino Vasquez
> Lakan 9 Modern Arnis


----------



## Dan Anderson

sanggot said:


> Dan,
> ..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong
> 
> Being the highest ranking Modern arnis in the phils or IMAFP i think
> SM Cris is just concern and want to make sure the whatever information
> published in the internet is correct to avoid confusion in the future
> 
> ............Just my personal thought!


Sanggot,

That sounds right.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dieter

Dan Anderson said:


> The different organizations have their ranking systems and titles.
> 
> WBMA recognizes this and does not intrude in on member organizations and their rnakings.  The Senior Masters in the PI recognize only one Grand Master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy Presas.
> 
> I see the validity of Dieter's point that there can be succeeding Grand Masters.



Hi Dan,  
nice to see, that we reached a level of understanding.
To get the point right: I never said, that there will ever be a Grandmaster for all Modern Arnis groups or organisations again. I think this will not be possible.
I only vote for the fact, that this title is not so exclusively for one person, The founder. For example see Doce Pares: you have GM Dionisio Canete, GM Danny Guba GM Percival Pableo, and sure others, that Im am not aware of, all in one brach of the Doce Pares.
They have reached a level of skill, understanding and experience, that they deserve to be recognized as Grandmasters.
And this way it is handeled by almost all martial arts groups all over the world.
I can understand, that especially the first generation students and family of Professor Presas would like to see the Grandmaster title being exclusively for GM Remy, but I think form a sports poclitical aspect it is not right. but this is again the dsiscussion of "THE" Grandmaster contrary to "A" Grandmaster.
Perhaps he shouöd be posthumusly honored with the Great Grandmaster title to make clear, that he is and was on a level of his own. So the next genereation of Grandmasters would not be on the same level as he is.


> How I see it is each head of their organization can end up being Grand Master of their group or offshoot system.


Yes, right. That at least.
Bram teaches CSSD/SC, which is par definition a kind of Modern Arnis, because otherwise he would not be in the WBMA. And he is the Grandmaster for the CSSD/SC. 
Same with GM Rodel, and GM Jerry, where at least GM Rolel never did anything else than Modern Arnis. 
There again is already a problem: GM Rodel holds 8th Dan Modern Arnis and is regarded Grandmaster. Cristino Vasquez is ranked 9th Dan and is only Senior Master? Whay that? Same with GM Jerry dela Cruz. Grandmaster and 8th Dan Modern Arnis.
I respect an honor GM Rene and GM Cristion for their humble attitude. I have been discussing this with GM Rene already since 4 years. Not everybody might know this, but GM Rene was offered 9th Dan by GM Remy.
He turned it down, because he said that GM Cristino is his senior and he cannot have the same rank. This is really a very honorable attitude and shows his ethics.

But don't we have the problem with the titles from Remy, because there were inconsistencies? He gave out 6th Dan Senior Master, 6th Dan Junior Master, 5th Dan Master of Tapi Tapi, 5th Dan Master and so on. 
We try to have a general rule, that this kind of confusion does not happen, at least within the DAV. I really have problems to explain to my students, why GM Rodel is Grandmaster with 8th Dan and Cristino is not with 9th Dan.
This is why I think it is senseble to handle it the way we do.



> Rene Tongson and Cristino Vasquez are GM's in arts other than Modern Arnis.  In Modern Arnis they only claim Senior Master title or status.
> This is how I see it being played out in the future.



Yes, but GM Rodel is not. 
So some are GM and some are not?

One more quote from GM Rene, during the TV interview, when we were in Manila: he was asked who is at the festival and he said. "We have Grandmasters. 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster." You can look it  up in the CD of the Morningshow. 

Anyway, I general I support your point, that we will never have THE Grandmaster, THE father figure as an overall leader again. That was and stays Remy Presas.

Sanggot:


> ..maybe SM Cris is asking why dieter is addressing some master as GM inside a modern arnis organization...in WBMA website, it shown there is one person there using GM. Secondly, i think hes not aware that this person is also the chairman of WMBA.....i could be wrong


 
Please be aware, that I am not responsible for the content of the WBMA website. This is done in the Philippines.
Also look out for the new FMA Digst about the 3rd FMA Festival and see, that Cristino Vasquez is always being referred to as GM.


Regards

Dieter


PS: Please look out for the Interview with Master Lisondra, one of the 10 first students and the first blackbelt of GM Remy Presas on the WBMA website. 
http://www.worldbromodernarnis.com/
It will be in the research area. it should be online within the next days.


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## sanggot

...that is true!
...it's also true that some information need verification before even releasing it to the public......but its just me!

...so Gm Rene was offered Lakan 9 by GM Remy.......interesting!

================================================



Dieter said:


> Hi Dan,
> nice to see, that we reached a level of understanding.
> To get the point right: I never said, that there will ever be a Grandmaster for all Modern Arnis groups or organisations again. I think this will not be possible.
> I only vote for the fact, that this title is not so exclusively for one person, The founder. For example see Doce Pares: you have GM Dionisio Canete, GM Danny Guba GM Percival Pableo, and sure others, that Im am not aware of, all in one brach of the Doce Pares.
> They have reached a level of skill, understanding and experience, that they deserve to be recognized as Grandmasters.
> And this way it is handeled by almost all martial arts groups all over the world.
> I can understand, that especially the first generation students and family of Professor Presas would like to see the Grandmaster title being exclusively for GM Remy, but I think form a sports poclitical aspect it is not right. but this is again the dsiscussion of "THE" Grandmaster contrary to "A" Grandmaster.
> Perhaps he shouöd be posthumusly honored with the Great Grandmaster title to make clear, that he is and was on a level of his own. So the next genereation of Grandmasters would not be on the same level as he is.
> 
> Yes, right. That at least.
> Bram teaches CSSD/SC, which is par definition a kind of Modern Arnis, because otherwise he would not be in the WBMA. And he is the Grandmaster for the CSSD/SC.
> Same with GM Rodel, and GM Jerry, where at least GM Rolel never did anything else than Modern Arnis.
> There again is already a problem: GM Rodel holds 8th Dan Modern Arnis and is regarded Grandmaster. Cristino Vasquez is ranked 9th Dan and is only Senior Master? Whay that? Same with GM Jerry dela Cruz. Grandmaster and 8th Dan Modern Arnis.
> I respect an honor GM Rene and GM Cristion for their humble attitude. I have been discussing this with GM Rene already since 4 years. Not everybody might know this, but GM Rene was offered 9th Dan by GM Remy.
> He turned it down, because he said that GM Cristino is his senior and he cannot have the same rank. This is really a very honorable attitude and shows his ethics.
> 
> But don't we have the problem with the titles from Remy, because there were inconsistencies? He gave out 6th Dan Senior Master, 6th Dan Junior Master, 5th Dan Master of Tapi Tapi, 5th Dan Master and so on.
> We try to have a general rule, that this kind of confusion does not happen, at least within the DAV. I really have problems to explain to my students, why GM Rodel is Grandmaster with 8th Dan and Cristino is not with 9th Dan.
> This is why I think it is senseble to handle it the way we do.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but GM Rodel is not.
> So some are GM and some are not?
> 
> One more quote from GM Rene, during the TV interview, when we were in Manila: he was asked who is at the festival and he said. "We have Grandmasters. 8th to 10th Dan is Grandmaster." You can look it up in the CD of the Morningshow.
> 
> Anyway, I general I support your point, that we will never have THE Grandmaster, THE father figure as an overall leader again. That was and stays Remy Presas.
> 
> Sanggot:
> 
> 
> Please be aware, that I am not responsible for the content of the WBMA website. This is done in the Philippines.
> Also look out for the new FMA Digst about the 3rd FMA Festival and see, that Cristino Vasquez is always being referred to as GM.
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Dieter
> 
> 
> PS: Please look out for the Interview with Master Lisondra, one of the 10 first students and the first blackbelt of GM Remy Presas on the WBMA website.
> http://www.worldbromodernarnis.com/
> It will be in the research area. it should be online within the next days.


----------



## Morgan

Rich Parsons said:


> Harold,
> 
> Please accept my apologies, for I did not mean to put this thread sideways.
> 
> I have a problem with anything that Jeff Delaney says as he called me a liar to my face. He started in 1994, (* I had already turned down more rank then most, becuase I did and still do not worry about that but what I can do in person. *) he then stated that since I had never tested underneath him at a camp I had no rank and if I had a certificate it was a fraud either by my own doing or by the person who gave it to me. For he did not believe that our school tested at our school just like they always had since 1977/78 time frame. So, when some people who have nothing to gain tell me one thing, and those who keep quiet to avoid looking like they are jealous or have an ego issue, as well as what I remember reading, it makes for a nice piece of history form a certain point of view.
> 
> So if Jeff told you that, then good for him and good for you to verify that. But, as fas as I am concerned Jeff has no rank (* When I cannot be nice, I return the attitude and actions towards me back towards its' initiator *) and has no authority, for if my certs and paperwork are in question, when I have video tape of one of the test and witnesses then his that I have never seen is in question as well.
> 
> Jeff can go teach, he can have his organization. He can even promote who ever he wants to what ever rank or title. I presonally do not recognize any of it, but what does that mean in the bigt picture? One person in a small school that dislikes and does not approve nor recognizes a person who has an organization is nothing but is speed bump in his way to making money off of videos and seminars.
> 
> I support Dr. Schea and the rest of the MoTT's as well as the Datu's and the Senior Masters, as well as the Children if GM RP in the USA and around the world. I recognize all their work and effort and attempt to promote the art of Modern Arnis, and wish them the best.
> 
> If the day was sunny and no clouds in the sky and Jeff stated it as so, I would still go look and verify for myself and wonder what his agenda was for making such a statement.
> 
> 
> So once again I apologize the the new Org of the Brotherhood, and also to those who are trying to have a positive discussion here. If the staff wishes to remove this post as being off topic, I will support such actions, and understand fully.
> 
> Thank you for allowing me to experss my points of view.
> :asian:


 
Mr. Parsons,

This is a serious matter.  I believe that it is relevant and I hope that your post is not moved to some other area.  The WBMA is needed for exactly the reasons that you are mentioning people not wanting to recognize or acknowledge the things that have happened outside of their own view or organization.

This also goes back to what SM Dieter stated with regard to GM Presas giving people titles and privileges that others are/were not aware of.  If most people were tested and promoted at camps that should not mean that everyone was or had to be tested and promoted at camps.  Then there is the issue of when did Mr. Delaney become a Modern Arnis participant?  It certainly seems like it would have been after 1977/78 when you instructor received permission from GM Presas to test at his school.

In light of your situation and differences with Mr. Delaney, I wonder how many other people have had similar problems with credibility and believability because of unknown promises, permissions, promotions and titles coming from GM Presas that were never articulated openly and in a public manner.  As best I can tell from reading past posts on threads related to this thread, acceptance of ranks, titles and promotions is a dominate problem in Modern Arnis across the various groups.

Good luck to you all.

Morgan


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## Morgan

Edmund BlackAdder said:


> One question.
> 
> How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.


 
Dear Mods,

Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?

Something is very wrong here.

Morgan


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## Dan Anderson

Morgan said:


> Dear Mods,
> 
> _
> Originally Posted by *Edmund BlackAdder*
> 
> 
> One question.
> 
> How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count._
> Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?
> 
> Something is very wrong here.
> 
> Morgan


 
That one is slippery.  It could be just a question or a covertly snide remark.  Hard to say without hearing it so personally I let it go.

Yours,
Dan


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## Flatlander

Morgan said:


> Dear Mods,
> 
> Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?
> 
> Something is very wrong here.
> 
> Morgan


Morgan, I'd encourage you to report the post if it concerns you, as that is the appropriate protocol.  Use the triangle icon in the top right hand corner of the post you'd like to report, and address the issue in the text box.  That way, you can be certain that it will be reviewed by the staff.  The staff is unable to monitor every single post made here (there are usually aroung 1000/day), and they may not have the opportunity to note your concern without using the report to mod function that I have described to you.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard

Morgan said:


> Dear Mods,
> 
> Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?
> 
> Something is very wrong here.
> 
> Morgan


Very simply.

At the time, he wasn't.


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## Carol

Morgan said:


> Dear Mods,
> 
> Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?
> 
> Something is very wrong here.
> 
> Morgan


 
Morgan,

I'm not a mod (of MT), but if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Blackadder made the post before he was told to go seek tranquility.  Hope that makes sense.  :asian:

Also, ditto what Flatlander said.  Please use the RTM button to report any concern that you have to the mods.   That is the way for your concerns to be noticed and discussed.  They will be taken seriously.

Carol


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## Guro Harold

Morgan said:


> Dear Mods,
> 
> Please explain how this fellow was allowed to slip through the cracks of your rigid security and post on 9-25-2006 when he supposed to be "seeking tranquility"?
> 
> Something is very wrong here.
> 
> Morgan


Hi Morgan,

I take your observation and concern as a high compliment!

I did notice Edmund's post and when it was posted, he had not began his search for Tranquility.

Best regards,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


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## Morgan

Flatlander said:


> Morgan, I'd encourage you to report the post if it concerns you, as that is the appropriate protocol. Use the triangle icon in the top right hand corner of the post you'd like to report, and address the issue in the text box. That way, you can be certain that it will be reviewed by the staff. The staff is unable to monitor every single post made here (there are usually aroung 1000/day), and they may not have the opportunity to note your concern without using the report to mod function that I have described to you.
> 
> :asian:


 
OK Folks,

Ive looked at this post again  and since it is  very clearly marked as #41 and dated 09-25-2006,  I am totally mystified as to how this fellow could have posted this remark prior to his being sent into the relm of tranquility seeking.  Please forgive me for being so curious and stubborn, however this poster was sent into the land of MTC non-existence some time ago!  Something is not right!  

I want to follow the correct protocol and file a formal complaint   as suggested, however I can not find that triangle in the "...top right hand corner..." of the post; therefore and in leiu of my shortcoming, I respectfully request that the administrators accept this post as a formal notice of complaint and investigate this matter.  Also, please note that Ms. Kuhr, posted as #41 on the same date and Palusut posed as #43.  No one was quoting Edmund BlackAdder, so I have to ask again, how was he able to post on 09-25-2006 when he had already been sent into the land on tranquility BEFORE that date?

Morgan 

  #http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/*41* 
09-25-2006, 10:07 PM 
Edmund BlackAdder  vbmenu_register("postmenu_623746", true);     



Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: I stand between the Dorkness and the Not Bright
Posts: 310 

</SPAN>
*Re: Worldwide Brotherhood of Modern Arnis* 
​One question.

How many Modern Arnis organizations are there? I've lost count.​


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## Guro Harold

Hi Morgan,

With all due respect, it appears that Edmund was sent on his journey after his post in his thread.

Bob has already shared his findings regarding this as well.

Best regards,

Palusut
MT Senior Moderator


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## Brian R. VanCise

Palusut,

I believe you are correct on this!


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## Bob Hubbard

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Palusut,
> 
> I believe you are correct on this!


User posted on 9-25-2006, 10:07 PM Eastern Time
User was sent to wander the sand garden on 9-26-006, 7:30 PM Eastern Time, or approximately 21 1/2 hours later...for comments that were not involved in -this- thread.


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## Morgan

Bob Hubbard said:


> User posted on 9-25-2006, 10:07 PM Eastern Time
> User was sent to wander the sand garden on 9-26-006, 7:30 PM Eastern Time, or approximately 21 1/2 hours later...for comments that were not involved in -this- thread.


 
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Morgan


----------

