# Jhoon Rhee & Hee Il Choi



## Rob Broad (Jul 18, 2004)

Where do Jhoon Rhee & Hee Il Choi fit in the hierarchy of today's Tae Kwon Do?


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## Hanzo04 (Jul 19, 2004)

These two Grandmasters are at the pinnacle of tae kwon do. jhoon rhee isthe father of american tkd (enough said) and Hee il cho has always stresed real training for actual combat and his students buy into it. he has been in some successful movies and has coached the korean and usa tkd teams in past years. his technique and speed are flawless. that's what i think.


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 19, 2004)

Which USA and Korean teams did Cho coach?


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## Zepp (Jul 19, 2004)

Both of them are grandmasters in their own right, but I don't think Tae Kwon Do really has any kind of hierarchy that anyone from different organizations could agree on.  (Besides maybe belt ranks.)  Maybe Jhoon Rhee deserves slightly more credit for being the first to bring TKD to the US.


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## sifu nick (Aug 11, 2004)

As far as a hierarchy I wouldn't know. I do know Jhoon Rhee is from the ITF style and Hee Il Cho is from the WTF style.


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## XxTKDPenguinxX (Aug 18, 2004)

sifu nick said:
			
		

> As far as a hierarchy I wouldn't know. I do know Jhoon Rhee is from the ITF style and Hee Il Cho is from the WTF style.


These two men have had a great influence on TKD.  I did not know much about them until I had read a petition that was signed by some of the the higest members of TKD (as well as other martial arts).  This petition had granted one H.U.Lee to the level of 10th Dan and from that point out was refered to as "Eternal Grandmaster."
  Not trying to take away from these two, but I thought it interesting that they have both signed this document and were the couple of first signatures (from a dozen or so) that were on it.  

  So, I guess to answer the question, I would say that; depending on which orginization you follow/prefer... the are the highest.


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## TigerWoman (Aug 18, 2004)

sifu nick said:
			
		

> As far as a hierarchy I wouldn't know. I do know Jhoon Rhee is from the ITF style and Hee Il Cho is from the WTF style.



I have Hee Il Cho's books and he teaches traditional ITF forms- Chonji-Dangun, etc. TW


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 18, 2004)

Both men in their prime were excellent technicians and even today are in superb physical condition.  Cho was an incredible kicker and Rhee was able to do a hundred consecutive pushups well into his sixties.  He may still be able to.

Both men did a great deal to promote Tae Kwon Do through their books and videos.  

Both men shared a distaste for wearing dobok tops, preferring to show off their physiques.  Its difficult to find a picture of Cho from the seventies where he is wearing a top.  

Remy Presas once told me Rhee is supposed to have said he was the "Jesus Christ of Tae Kwon Do."  He allegedly said this at a seminar somewhere in Texas.  The students of the host took such offense to this that they quit in droves.  I can't verify this.  It is, at best, hearsay.  

I never heard the story of Cho coaching an American or a Korean team.  What kind of team?  What association?


Regards,


Steve


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## TigerWoman (Aug 18, 2004)

I assume Jhoon Rhee and Hee Il Cho are grandmasters.  I was just wondering, does anyone know how many TKD Grandmasters are in the US?
Do any organizations publish those names anywhere?  TW


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## Rob Broad (Aug 18, 2004)

Jhoon Rhee, has probably done more to popularize TKD in the US than anyone else.  He has been an innovator in the industry.  he was one of the first Korean Masters to advocate Safety Gear, and then created his one line since there was no brands geared towards TKD that were really safe.  The also started a program for teh US Congress in which he offered lesson to help keep the politicians healthy, and their minds sharp.  The few that did his classes really help US TKD get itself notice and helped get it tax exempt status for charities.  Jhoon Rhee has also collaborated with films to help produce some great fight sequences, produced his own books and videos.  He is a true master of the martial arts.


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## Mushinto (Feb 23, 2005)

Although most TKD history can be taken with a grain of salt, this lineage is interesting:



> *Chung Do Kwan was the first kwan or school of the modern Korean martial arts to be established on the newly liberated Korean Peninsula. The name Chung Do Kwan means, "The School of the Blue Waves." This represents a youthful spirit and vitality. The system was founded by Lee, Won Kuk and the school was located in Seoul.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...






*This is from this site: *http://www.scottshaw.com/history/



On a personal note, I met Jhoon Rhee many times at Korean tournaments in NYC when I studied Taekwondo in the sixties. He was an extremely well respected man, even by other Koreans. My teacher acknowledged him as his _senior_ and I never heard him defer to _any_ other Korean instructors except his teacher (Chong Woo Lee).



I did witness the result of Rhee's ability at a Korean tournament. I had heard that he had a disagreement with another Korean instructor and they went into the men's room. By the time I got there (nosey), there was no one around. Inside the rest room, there was blood all over the walls with big splotches about head-height on all four walls. I finally got one of the other instructors to tell me that a visiting Korean teacher had not shown him the "proper respect".



I don't know much about Hee Il Cho.



ML


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## Spookey (Feb 23, 2005)

Dear All,


Jhoon Rhee was originally from the Chung Do Kwan...This was during the General Choi Hong Hi days. He is coined the Father of American TKD after a meeting with the General in which he adopted the Chang Hon Hyungs of TKD!

 Hee Il Cho was a member of the original ITF-Demo Team...He was with General Choi for a long time (many years...) this was prior to the creation of the WTF!

 TAEKWON!
 SPookey


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## Miles (Feb 26, 2005)

Not that there is a "hierarchy" per se, but GM Rhee is senior to GM Cho, I believe.

 Both have done much to enhance the image of TKD thoughout the world.

 I read that GM Rhee learned the ITF forms via an ROK Army Field manual while he was in college in Texas.

 GM Cho has books on both the ITF Tul and the Kukkiwon Poomsae.  

 Miles


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 26, 2005)

I have read Hee Il Cho's book on WTF forms. Honestly, I was not that impressed. One of those cases where he's trying to be all things to all people, showing ITF and WTF forms. Pick one.
In the book, he seemed more intent on demonstrating how good his technique is than on showing proper form action. If I want to know WTF poomsae, I'll read the Kukkiwon manual. At least they specialize in those.


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## Klondike93 (Feb 26, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> I have read Hee Il Cho's book on WTF forms. Honestly, I was not that impressed. One of those cases where he's trying to be all things to all people, showing ITF and WTF forms. Pick one.
> In the book, he seemed more intent on demonstrating how good his technique is than on showing proper form action. If I want to know WTF poomsae, I'll read the Kukkiwon manual. At least they specialize in those.



Why does he have to pick one? In my opinion he's just doing TKD, all TKD, doesn't matter ITF, WTF or whatever. Or, the WTF just paid him more to do their stuff   :idunno: 


 :ultracool


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## Miles (Feb 26, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> ......If I want to know WTF poomsae, I'll read the Kukkiwon manual. At least they specialize in those.


 Absolutely agree! Don't have GM Cho's books on Poomsae, but have looked through them. The Kukkiwon Textbook is the final word on poomsae. The accompanying 2 video set has GM LEE, Chong Kwan performing them. He's in the center:






  Miles


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## Miles (Feb 26, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> ......If I want to know WTF poomsae, I'll read the Kukkiwon manual. At least they specialize in those.


 GM LEE, Chong Kwan teaches Poomsae at the Kukkiwon's Instructor Courses. And my photo of him obviously didn't come through.

   Miles


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2005)

Well if you want WTF get ready for change because the Poomse are changing. They are developing a new set as we speak. Anyway Cho Books Blackbelt Poomse are a pretty good read. as you all know if you do WTF Poomse and you did USTU tournaments than you know they have no uniform way of keeping the Poomse straight for all WTF-USTU school teach them differently don't know why, but they do. I guess because most of them look to the sport aspect and really do not care about the Poomse that much atleast that is what I have been told. The USA TKD promises to unified scoring in the future but who really knows for sure. I can't see that happening for everybody looks at different aspects of a Poomse and you can't unified one's thought of how they where tought. MichaganTKD I respect you and you know this but how come you don't do the Pawle gue set (mis-spelled) just a thought.

Terry Lee Stoker :asian:


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## DuneViking (Feb 26, 2005)

*The first seventeen Black Belts of Chung Do Kwan were: *


Thanks for the info, what happened to the others? Is anyone aquainted with Um, Uoon Kyu (Uhm, Woon Kyu?)and the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association of America? Apparrently Um participated in TKTKDAA along with E. B Sell. I found a website [http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm] with this info : 

Won Kook Yi (Lee), a Tae Kyon (sic) student, traveled throughout the Orient, returning to Korea in 1940. In 1941, he added techniques from other styles to Tae Kyon, and developed "Tae Su Do Chung Do Kwan". He retired in 1945, but before doing so, he named his successor as head of Chung Do Kwan, Grand Master Uoon Kyu Um. 

A different version of these events appeared in a recent issue of Tae Kwon do Times [size=-1](47)[/size] which adds some details, but contradicts other seemingly reliable sources. According to this version, Grandmaster Lee opened his school with the tacit approval of the Japanese authorities on September 14, 1944. Grand Master Lee trained students until 1950, when he had to leave Korea for Japan for ?political? reasons. Duk Sung Son then became Kwan Jang Nim of Chung Do Kwan.A few years later Duk Sung Son left Korea for the United States, and only then did Uoon Kyu Um become Kwan Jang Nim. Uoon Kyu Um is mentioned among the original students of Grand Master Lee and so is *Jhoon Rhee* but, in this version, there is no mention at all of General Choi Hong Hi. The omission is incorrect and was made for political reasons.


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 26, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Well if you want WTF get ready for change because the Poomse are changing. They are developing a new set as we speak. Anyway Cho Books Blackbelt Poomse are a pretty good read. as you all know if you do WTF Poomse and you did USTU tournaments than you know they have no uniform way of keeping the Poomse straight for all WTF-USTU school teach them differently don't know why, but they do. I guess because most of them look to the sport aspect and really do not care about the Poomse that much atleast that is what I have been told. The USA TKD promises to unified scoring in the future but who really knows for sure. I can't see that happening for everybody looks at different aspects of a Poomse and you can't unified one's thought of how they where tought. MichaganTKD I respect you and you know this but how come you don't do the Pawle gue set (mis-spelled) just a thought.
> 
> Terry Lee Stoker :asian:


Terry,

We do practice the Palgwe set. We have ever since I began practicing. Perhaps you meant the Taegeuk set. We don't practice the Taegeuk set because our Instructor, Grandmaster Tae Zee Park, never switched over to them. Apparently the Palgwe set were the ones he learned in Korea and the ones he stayed with.


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 26, 2005)

If the WTF/Kukkiwon is developing new Poomsae, it is my sincere wish that they contain two things:

1. The power and body development of the Palgue forms.
2. The more modern techniques of Tae Kwon Do.

Keep in mind, the Palgue forms are a snapshot of what Tae Kwon Do was like in the 50's-60's: still a Japanese influence but asserting its own identity. As a result, the Japanese inluence was still obvious while the Korean technique is becoming more apparent. I really hope that the new forms reflect more modern accepted Tae Kwon Do technique. That doesn't mean they have to include 540-degree jump kicks or alternating roundhouse kicks, but having more jump/back/flying kicks would be nice. 
Keep in mind, the new forms should not merely reflect sport TKD. Forms should A. Make your body strong and B. Showcase accepted TKD technique. The new forms will hopefully retain the grace and power of traditional TKD while incorporating the more modern techniques.
Hope this makes sense. Typing under the influence of Guinness can be tricky sometimes


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## DuneViking (Feb 27, 2005)

Guiness is always a pleasure no matter the influence!!!!


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## terryl965 (Feb 27, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> If the WTF/Kukkiwon is developing new Poomsae, it is my sincere wish that they contain two things:
> 
> 1. The power and body development of the Palgue forms.
> 2. The more modern techniques of Tae Kwon Do.
> ...


 Michagan TKD I agree the new set of forms should include power and grace but I bet they are more like the Taegueks which is pretty simple. Sorry I mis quoted on the wrong forms just had a Heart attack a couple days ago still a little dopey I guess for I know you do the palgue patterns. Take care and we will have to see.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 27, 2005)

Heart attack!??  I hope you are okay, Terry.  Goes to show it can happen to anyone.  Please rest now and get better,my thoughts and prayers are with you.  TW


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## shesulsa (Feb 27, 2005)

Terry!!!  OMG!!!  Keep us posted and take excellent care of yourself.


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## terryl965 (Feb 27, 2005)

I'll be alright just need bed rest for a couple of weeks. Luckily I have a good wife and a great partner that will keep my Dojaang running while I'm gone for that period on the other hand i have a computer and direct tv to keep me company. I do have some video of techniques i can watch and Kung pow was on this am on tnt great. Thank you for your concerns and I'll be back before to long.


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## Miles (Feb 27, 2005)

Terry, good luck with your  recuperation.  Glad someone is able to step in and cover your classes for you.



			
				DuneViking said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, what happened to the others? Is anyone aquainted with Um, Uoon Kyu (Uhm, Woon Kyu?)and the Korean Tae Kwon Do Association of America?


 GM UHM, Woon Kyu is president of Kukkiwon and Chung Do Kwan. GM Ronald Rose is president of Korean Taekwondo Associaion of America. Don't know about all the others, but GM LEE, Sa Man passed away years ago, he was my Master's Master.


   [/QUOTE]..l. I found a website [http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm] with this info :[/QUOTE] That is a somewhat abbreviated version of what happened. If you want more information, I might suggest you review "The Modern History of Taekwondo" which is a Korean book translated and posted by my senior Glenn and found now on many websites. As a side issue, the author of that article wrote a scathing piece on Taekwondo for Classical Fighting Arts magazine. It was a really dumb article.

  [/QUOTE] Uoon Kyu Um is mentioned among the original students of Grand Master Lee and so is *Jhoon Rhee* but, in this version, there is no mention at all of General Choi Hong Hi. The omission is incorrect and was made for political reasons.[/QUOTE]  No, actually the omission of Gen Choi was not for political reasons.

 Gen Choi says he studied Shotokan Karate in Japan but when WWII ended, he did not train at the Chung Do Kwan (as did those 17 members, including GM NAM,Tae Hi who was personal secretary to GM LEE, Won Kuk before he started training). Gen Choi was given an honorary 4th dan by GM SON, Duk Song who later revoked it.

   Miles


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## DuneViking (Mar 1, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Terry, good luck with your recuperation. Glad someone is able to step in and cover your classes for you.
> 
> GM UHM, Woon Kyu is president of Kukkiwon and Chung Do Kwan. GM Ronald Rose is president of Korean Taekwondo Associaion of America. Don't know about all the others, but GM LEE, Sa Man passed away years ago, he was my Master's Master.


..l. I found a website [http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm] with this info :[/QUOTE] That is a somewhat abbreviated version of what happened. If you want more information, I might suggest you review "The Modern History of Taekwondo" which is a Korean book translated and posted by my senior Glenn and found now on many websites. As a side issue, the author of that article wrote a scathing piece on Taekwondo for Classical Fighting Arts magazine. It was a really dumb article.

[/QUOTE] Uoon Kyu Um is mentioned among the original students of Grand Master Lee and so is *Jhoon Rhee* but, in this version, there is no mention at all of General Choi Hong Hi. The omission is incorrect and was made for political reasons.[/QUOTE] No, actually the omission of Gen Choi was not for political reasons.

Gen Choi says he studied Shotokan Karate in Japan but when WWII ended, he did not train at the Chung Do Kwan (as did those 17 members, including GM NAM,Tae Hi who was personal secretary to GM LEE, Won Kuk before he started training). Gen Choi was given an honorary 4th dan by GM SON, Duk Song who later revoked it.

Miles[/QUOTE] 
Thanks Miles,
Hard, with the nature of the internet, to know what facts in an article are correct. Appreciate the update!


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## kickillustrated (Mar 13, 2022)

Spookey said:


> Dear All,
> 
> 
> Jhoon Rhee was originally from the Chung Do Kwan...This was during the General Choi Hong Hi days. He is coined the Father of American TKD after a meeting with the General in which he adopted the Chang Hon Hyungs of TKD!
> ...


i think he came many years later. The original ITF team started in 1965 in Germany when the Koreans were invited by Mike Anderson.


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 26, 2022)

What about ATA's Haeng Ung Lee?  I feel he's contributed as much as any other influential TKD GM.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 26, 2022)

WhiteBeltNoStripe said:


> What about ATA's Haeng Ung Lee?  I feel he's contributed as much as any other influential TKD GM.


HU Lee was also a Chung Do Kwan alum later associating with General Choi and the ITF, and later still leaving the ITF and doing his own thing with great success.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 26, 2022)

DuneViking said:


> ..l. I found a website [http://www.sos.mtu.edu/husky/tkdhist.htm] with this info :




Gen Choi says he studied Shotokan Karate in Japan but when WWII ended, he did not train at the Chung Do Kwan (as did those 17 members, including GM NAM,Tae Hi who was personal secretary to GM LEE, Won Kuk before he started training). Gen Choi was given an honorary 4th dan by GM SON, Duk Song who later revoked it.

Miles[/QUOTE]
Thanks Miles,
Hard, with the nature of the internet, to know what facts in an article are correct. Appreciate the update!
[/QUOTE]

Sadly quoting only some of the facts can give an incorrect impression. 

It must be noted that at the time Son Duk-sung  took out the  Newspaper ad   he was no longer head of the Chung Do Kwan   (having been removed from that position - I m uncertain if he remained a member - Perhaps Glenn U can advise)  It also must be noted that in the same newspaper ad he purportedly "Expelled"   GM UHM, Woon Kyu  who succeeded his as president and GM Nam Tae Hi . As  we know GM GM UHM, Woon Kyu  remained president for many years. GM Nam remained a respected member as well.   So, if as head of an organization you award something, when no longer head or possibly even a member can you revoke it? The remaining status of GM UHM, Woon Kyu  and GM Nam Tae Hi gives a pretty good indication of what the CDK as an organization thought of GM Son's newspaper ad and it's purported action.


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## WhiteBeltNoStripe (Dec 26, 2022)

Earl Weiss said:


> HU Lee was also a Chung Do Kwan alum later associating with General Choi and the ITF, and later still leaving the ITF and doing his own thing with great success.


As a newbie, I'm still learning the history of the arts and truly enjoying it.  I do find it funny that most people talk bad of ATA knowing the leaders of a lot of the styles all started together and are very similar.  There is nothing wrong with ATA/Songahm.  The main complaints are some locations charge too much and that damn camo belt, haha.  The camo belt issue comes from the same people who say it's not about the belt, it's about the journey.  With that being said, Songahm still does not seem to get any respect even though it is a structured, well rounded, vastly popular and liked by those who practice it. The issues people have with ATA have nothing to do with the style/Songahm, yet they trash the ATA name.


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