# Arnold Battle of Columbus Stick Fighting



## Seigi (Feb 23, 2004)

I just wanted to let everyone know about the Full contact stick fighting competition at the Arnold Martial arts classic in Columbus Ohio March 6th. 
It's WEKAF Gear , but the rules are different, you can kick, throw & punch. It's a great time. This will be my 3rd year competing.

Hope to see everyone there!?!
For more info. go to www.arnoldclassic.com

Seigi


----------



## BladeMaster (Mar 3, 2004)

Hey, are there any knife comps.at the arnold or anywhere else?  BladeMaster


----------



## ShaolinWolf (Mar 3, 2004)

Now that would be nice...A stick fighting competition...yeah, I'd love that, don't get much tourny's that have staff fighting in ATA...cool


----------



## OUMoose (Mar 4, 2004)

I read the rules for that competition.  Unfortunately (IMO) they are very restrictive.  Perhaps for someone who's trained to point stick fight, they would be fine, and I'm going to try to be there to watch.  Should prove to be a learning experience.


----------



## OULobo (Mar 4, 2004)

I'll be there to lend support for competetors from my school. I hope to meet some MY people there.


----------



## Seigi (Mar 5, 2004)

See you all tomorrow.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 6, 2004)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> I read the rules for that competition.  Unfortunately (IMO) they are very restrictive.  Perhaps for someone who's trained to point stick fight, they would be fine, and I'm going to try to be there to watch.  Should prove to be a learning experience.



Well, as one of the officials at ringside - and one of the people who was involved in laying out the rules - I agree. They are kind of restrictive. But there a lot better than some rules that I've seen - i.e.: they allow punching, kicking, and takedowns. Thing was that the Arnold is a huge event with a wide spectrum of people - most of whom would be utterly shocked if they saw anything that even remotely approached what I'd like to see in a stickfighting competition (which would be more in line with the Dog Brothers methods). So we had to make a compromise. We feel that the Arnold is a place where some positive coverage of the FMA might reach a lot of people - but in order to make it positive coverage, we have to keep things at a publicly accepted level of brutality. We deliberated *a lot* about the rules when we were putting them together and we tried to be conscious of both the politically correct side of the coin while still not getting so restrictive that it became point fighting.

And it's not point fighting in any way. The "points" in the rules are a general guideline. The judges are really looking for who controls the fight the best. They're looking for good clean attacks and defenses. Looking for nice solid shots and the more "kill" shots the better it's scored. The only things that can win a fight from a "points" perspective are if you take your opponent down 3 times or disarm him 3 times. The only way to lose a fight from a "points" perspective is to get called 3 times on the same warning - i.e.: punyo usage or face masking or something else. The lack of punyos, thrusts, and head shots with anything other than the stick are simply for general safety. A punyo to the top of the head, for instance, would blow right through the light padding on the top of the helmet and could land someone in the hospital - or worse. Punches or kicks to the head (kicks to the head would be unlikely regardless) could break a neck because of the weight of the helmet.

Anyway - I thought it was an awesome event today. From my perspective, it ran very smoothly and there wasn't a bad fight fought today. *Everyone* fought hard and well. Our biggest problem today was that they stuck us in a small ring and our head ref didn't have enough room to move and got a cut over his left eye. Not bad but he was done reffing for the day. But things ran very smoothly today and we got everything wrapped up in less than 8 hours - which included a nearly 3 hour break when they did the "Masters & Legends" demo in the middle of the day - they have to do it according to Arnold's schedule, so I understand the timing, but it is annoying to have to stop all the action for a couple of hours in the middle of things.

I'll get a full write up done and posted around in a few days - once I get unwound from the stress of running things today 

Mike


----------



## IMAA (Mar 7, 2004)

That would be nice MIKE.... Knowing I didnt get to make it this year upset me.  But those are the breaks...

A review of things would be nice.

Hey theres always next year right?  


Thanks, and btw im trying to boost the 2nd annual workshop here in MUNCIE pretty hard.  

any word of any participation on your end?  send me an email


COry


----------



## OULobo (Mar 8, 2004)

I thought the event went well. I guess I get a little frustrated with all the take-downs and the lack of really useful strikes, but as Mike stated they are there for pretty good reasons. I noticed a couple of matches where equipment malfunctions (helmets and jackets falling off) became a bit of a problem. My biggest issue was that everyone eventually gets to a clinch and starts alternating abanico strikes thigh to head, thigh to head. 

I was thinking it would be nice to see demonstrations of the more beautiful side of the FMAs. Mabey a non-competative demo of sayaws or weapons dances.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 18, 2004)

BladeMaster said:
			
		

> Hey, are there any knife comps.at the arnold or anywhere else?  BladeMaster



I've personally only ever seen one attempt at a knife fighting competition and it was beyond lame. It was "first cut gets point" - even if the first cut was non-lethal. So, for example, I took a cut on the outside my forearm just before I cut my opponent's femoral artery - he got the point because his landed first. I smiled and shrugged - in reality I'm going to get some stitches and he's dying.

There may be others out there that are better but that's the only one that I've personally seen.

Mike


----------



## pesilat (Mar 18, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I thought the event went well. I guess I get a little frustrated with all the take-downs and the lack of really useful strikes, but as Mike stated they are there for pretty good reasons. I noticed a couple of matches where equipment malfunctions (helmets and jackets falling off) became a bit of a problem. My biggest issue was that everyone eventually gets to a clinch and starts alternating abanico strikes thigh to head, thigh to head.
> 
> I was thinking it would be nice to see demonstrations of the more beautiful side of the FMAs. Mabey a non-competative demo of sayaws or weapons dances.



What's frustrating about the takedowns? I like the fact that they're allowed and that they count. The gear problems are somewhat unavoidable. Though there was one match that I recall where one of the vests was put on improperly and wouldn't stay on very well - but the error was pointed out and I don't think it was repeated. I only remember a couple of fights with the clinch/abanico.

There are some non-competitive demos done - the Atienza group did one on Saturday and our group did one on Sunday. There is also the form and self-defense division that takes place on Friday. We only had one competitor sign up for the forms, though, and none for the self-defense so the one competitor did his form on Saturday after the fights.

Each year, we get better at the organizational aspects of the gig and each year is better than the previous year. There will be some changes made next year but they haven't been pinned down yet.

I've written a review and am awaiting approval before I post it.

Mike


----------



## OULobo (Mar 19, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> What's frustrating about the takedowns? I like the fact that they're allowed and that they count. The gear problems are somewhat unavoidable. Though there was one match that I recall where one of the vests was put on improperly and wouldn't stay on very well - but the error was pointed out and I don't think it was repeated. I only remember a couple of fights with the clinch/abanico.
> 
> There are some non-competitive demos done - the Atienza group did one on Saturday and our group did one on Sunday. There is also the form and self-defense division that takes place on Friday. We only had one competitor sign up for the forms, though, and none for the self-defense so the one competitor did his form on Saturday after the fights.
> 
> ...



Mike, don't get me wrong, as I said, I think it went off well. I only said a couple of matches had equipment problems, one with the vest and a couple where the helmet came off. I caught the Atienza demo and I loved it. I missed the one on Sun. because I had to be home, but I wish I could've stayed. I didn't really like the take-downs because they were all the same hip toss and none were really clean. 

BTW I don't think we had met before, but I spoke with you briefly about helping to identify one of the coaches for me.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 19, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Mike, don't get me wrong, as I said, I think it went off well. I only said a couple of matches had equipment problems, one with the vest and a couple where the helmet came off. I caught the Atienza demo and I loved it. I missed the one on Sun. because I had to be home, but I wish I could've stayed. I didn't really like the take-downs because they were all the same hip toss and none were really clean.
> 
> BTW I don't think we had met before, but I spoke with you briefly about helping to identify one of the coaches for me.



Cool. I don't remember you - too much happening at that thing. You shoulda mentioned that you were OULobo from MartialTalk, though 

RE: the throws. Clean takedowns are tough to get in any kind of dynamic situation. Virtually impossible to get in that gear. The hip throw - or, in Silat terms, Biset Luar, is the most common because of the nature of the gear and the setting. However, there was at least one other type of takedown used this year that I specifically recall. In Silat, we'd call it a Sapu Luar. I think Judo would call it an "Outside Minor Reap" (don't know the Japanese term).

Ironically, we actually want the helmet to come off sometimes. If it's on too tight and doesn't come off when it should, then the fighter risks neck injury. But I think I know the fight you're specifically referring to - and it was actually because one of the fighters kept wrapping his arm around the back of the helmet (which is a borderline infringement of the "no hand contact to the helmet" rule) and when they broke apart, the helmet came off. If I remember correctly, that guy got a couple of warnings for wrapping the helmet and then was penalized to the point that he lost by default.

Mike


----------



## OULobo (Mar 19, 2004)

I really remember they guy losing his helmet and just kneeling in a roof block to try to protect his head.


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> What's frustrating about the takedowns? I like the fact that they're allowed and that they count.
> 
> Only problem I have with takedowns in a tournament situation is that people may "sacrifice" taking a hit to get the takedown, when maybe in the real world that hit would have maybe (maybe not) stopped them from continuing or prevented them from doing it.
> 
> and this rule "the only things that can win a fight from a "points" perspective are if you take your opponent down 3 times..."  further illustrates the point that someone might take 20 hits (that won't win the fight from a points perspective) to get 3 takedowns that WILL win the fight.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 19, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> pesilat said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> That's valid - but I've never seen it happen in our fights at the Arnold. The takedowns almost always happen after the fighters have closed int and gotten into some sort of clinch. There are some fighters who rely overly much on their gear but the judges are always watching for that and that person loses anyway. But I've not seen anyone sacrificing themselves to get takedowns. However, I'll be sure to mention this to the other officials and we'll see about modifying it to take that into account.
> 
> Mike



I was just being speculative, not saying that it happens all the time,  just that the possibility for it does exist. Consider this scenerio, a grappler who wants to prove himself (and his system) enters the stick tourney.  Chances are high he will get hit, but with gear, the strikes just bounce off and he continues to the takedown- his specialty, all he needs are 3, if he can get 3 before the fight is over, it doesn't matter how many times he gets hit. He's not really cheating, just fighting within the rules. Takedowns are great and definately worth having in the tourney, they can be incorporated into an effective fight strategy and should be judged accordingly, but 3 and your out seems unbalanced.  How bout 3 leathal target blows with the stick and your out?

I've never been to the Arnold, but I'll definatly check it out sometime! Sounds like a good event.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 19, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I was just being speculative, not saying that it happens all the time,  just that the possibility for it does exist. Consider this scenerio, a grappler who wants to prove himself (and his system) enters the stick tourney.  Chances are high he will get hit, but with gear, the strikes just bounce off and he continues to the takedown- his specialty, all he needs are 3, if he can get 3 before the fight is over, it doesn't matter how many times he gets hit. He's not really cheating, just fighting within the rules. Takedowns are great and definately worth having in the tourney, they can be incorporated into an effective fight strategy and should be judged accordingly, but 3 and your out seems unbalanced.  How bout 3 leathal target blows with the stick and your out?
> 
> I've never been to the Arnold, but I'll definatly check it out sometime! Sounds like a good event.



I agree completely. Like I said, I'll mention it to the other guys and we'll look at a modification to the rules to prevent this.

The reason it's a win is that, often, when a takedown is done, the fight would be done - the fighter who gets taken down often has the wind knocked out of him, sometimes loses his/her weapon, is sometimes unconscious, is almost always at a disadvantage and would, in a real situation, take a lot of damage before he/she could get back to their feet. But beyond that, if one fighter is able to take the other down three times, it shows that the one doing the takedowns is more than likely controlling the fight better.

As far as 3 lethal strikes - it's hard to define lethal strikes when no one's dying. A strike that might not phase one person might knock another out or kill yet another. However, the judges do watch for and take into consideration good power shots that might finish the fight - if they're to the head, they might KO or kill, to the body might break ribs and do internal damage, to the leg might take out the knee (but since the knee's not a legal target, they're simulating by hitting the thigh). The action is too fast to really count the strikes - the judges have to watch the action and determine, based on their experience and knowledge, who would likely have had the upper hand in a real fight - or, more accurately, a series of fights between the two people since real fights rarely last more than a handful of seconds. Watching the fights is kind of like watching a whole series of fights rolled into a couple of minutes. If I, as a judge, feel that Fighter A would have won the majority of those fights then I give Fighter A the 10 points then I give Fighter B 9 or 8 points depending on how well he fought. So if they have 10 clashes in a round and Fighter A wins 6 of them, then I'll give Fighter A 10 points and Fighter B 9 points. If Fighter A wins 8+ then I'll only give Fighter B 8 points. If Fighter A wins all 10 clashes then I'll give Fighter B 7 points - but that's pretty rare. They fight 3 rounds like that then I tally the points. Sometimes a fighter who loses the first round will win the second and third rounds, and the match, because of endurance or because the first round was decided by luck more than the skills/abilities of the fighters.

We have 4 judges (1 in each corner). They're all instructor level in at least one FMA system and have some experience at stick fighting - either in a tournament setting or at least in class sparring. If one of the fighters is a student of one of the judges, that judge steps out (we've never had to ask a judge to do so, it's always been volunteered) and another, from a different school, sits in. We try to keep it as unbiased as possible.

Mike


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> I agree completely. Like I said, I'll mention it to the other guys and we'll look at a modification to the rules to prevent this.
> 
> We have 4 judges (1 in each corner). They're all instructor level in at least one FMA system and have some experience at stick fighting - either in a tournament setting or at least in class sparring. If one of the fighters is a student of one of the judges, that judge steps out (we've never had to ask a judge to do so, it's always been volunteered) and another, from a different school, sits in. We try to keep it as unbiased as possible.
> 
> Mike



Mike,

you mentioned that you've never had this problem (with takedowns).  A big part of that I think is the way you've organized the event to actually have knowledgable judges and refs and to give them flexibilty.  i wish all tournament organizers would do this. 

Is the fight stopped when someone goes down or are they allowed to keep striking?  Same question for disarming - is the fight stopped or are they allowed to continue?  I'm trying to organize an open weapons tournament myself and you've been very helpful.

Thanks

andy


----------



## pesilat (Mar 19, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> you mentioned that you've never had this problem (with takedowns).  A big part of that I think is the way you've organized the event to actually have knowledgable judges and refs and to give them flexibilty.  i wish all tournament organizers would do this.
> 
> ...



When a takedown or disarm occurs, the fight is stopped. Follow up strikes are assumed. We chose to do this primarily because of the venue. The Arnold is a very family oriented and some of the spectators would be put off by seeing an unarmed fighter or a fighter on the ground getting thrashed on.

Mike


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 19, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> When a takedown or disarm occurs, the fight is stopped. Follow up strikes are assumed. We chose to do this primarily because of the venue. The Arnold is a very family oriented and some of the spectators would be put off by seeing an unarmed fighter or a fighter on the ground getting thrashed on.
> 
> Mike



Thanks, you've been most helpful.  I understand the restrictions (family oriented, etc.) you had to work with.  I am working  with a local martial arts store in hosting an open weapons event and we are dealing with "softening" our rules for the same reason.  We most likely will also have kids competing with padded sticks.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 19, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Thanks, you've been most helpful.  I understand the restrictions (family oriented, etc.) you had to work with.  I am working  with a local martial arts store in hosting an open weapons event and we are dealing with "softening" our rules for the same reason.  We most likely will also have kids competing with padded sticks.



We actually have kids compete with the same gear, rattan sticks, and rules that we use for the adults and have had no problem with it - from the competitors or from the spectators.

Mike


----------



## pesilat (Mar 22, 2004)

OK. I've finally got the review and final standings posted on the Asian Fighting Arts website.

http://asianfightingarts.com then click on the Arnold poster in the control panel at the left side of the screen.

Mike


----------



## arnisandyz (Mar 23, 2004)

pesilat said:
			
		

> OK. I've finally got the review and final standings posted on the Asian Fighting Arts website.
> 
> http://asianfightingarts.com then click on the Arnold poster in the control panel at the left side of the screen.
> 
> Mike



Nice write-up, nice website too.

Andy


----------



## pesilat (Mar 23, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Nice write-up, nice website too.
> 
> Andy



Thank you  Since I both wrote the write-up and put the site together, I'm doubly flattered. Actually, we're trying to overhaul the site. It's not bad but it can use some work.

Mike


----------



## Seigi (Mar 28, 2004)

Hello,

Being a competitor in this event for the past 3 years, i have to say that the event gets better every year. Even though i waited 9 hours for my only fight (that i lost, oh well) I still enjoy the cometition. i think the rules are well worked out. Compared to WEKAF rules, where there is NO kicking or takedowns, i feel this event give a competitior a better & closer taste of reality (I know that no competition with gear & rules can be completely realistic) but in all the different types i've competed in, this is the best one for the sake of safety & realistic competition. Like the center judge said at the beginning "this is not what would really happen on the streets" All the competitors know this, but i feel that it gives us all a rare chance to compete & atempt some of our techniques that aren't allowed in class. I had a great time. Next year i'll be in better shape for the competition. I'll try to bring someone with me next time.

Thanks to everyone who was there!

Enoch T. Carlton
Modern Arnis of Warren.


----------



## pesilat (Mar 28, 2004)

Seigi said:
			
		

> Even though i waited 9 hours for my only fight (that i lost, oh well) I still enjoy the cometition.



OK. Now wait a second. That 9 hour statement might discourage people so let me address it. We got started between 11 AM & noon - the start time is dependent on many factors beyond our control. Our preliminary fights were done prior to the big demo in the middle of the day where Arnold puts in his appearance - we hate the fact that the demo forces everything to break up but it's completely beyond our control. We broke for it at about 2:30. We did our final fights after the demo. Since you got a bye in the first round, you wound up fighting in the final for your division. We started back up at 5:30 and had the whole shebang wrapped between 6:30 & 7 PM and your fight wasn't the last one. That means that, from the time the fighting started, you couldn't have waited any longer than 7 hours. Granted, that's still a long time to wait. And I assume the other 2 hours you waited were during the registration time before the fighting started? Unfortunately, there's just no way around the delays. 

But if there'd been more competitors, you probably would have fought sooner. And while we (the officials at the event) hate the delays in getting started and the delay of the big demo in the middle of the day - there's nothing to be done about them.

But *all* martial arts tournies I've ever been to - whether they were stickfighting, Karate, or TKD - had delays. All of them got started late. All of them had long delays between fights. I don't think the Arnold is any worse than any of them.

I just realized how defensive this post sounds. I don't intend to be defensive. I just don't want people to get discouraged from attending what I think is - as you put it - "the best one for the sake of safety & realistic competition."

And we'd really like to see more competitors in the forms and self-defense sections. We know a lot of people don't like these - but, really, the fighting only showcases a specific fighter's skill/ability. The forms and self-defense competitions are where the _art_ of the FMA can really be showcased.

Of course, we'd like to see more fighters, too 

We truly believe that we've put together a really good stick tournament and, in fact, we feel that, given the potential for dynamic impact that the FMA material has in general, we feel that it should be able to be the highlight of the Arnold Martial Arts expo - instead of getting shuffled off into a back corner _behind_ the spectator seats (that's where our ring was located this year). But if we don't get the attendance, it's not going to happen.

Mike


----------



## Seigi (Mar 28, 2004)

Mike,

I apologize if i sounded offensive, i should have been clearer about my post. I was trying to get to the fact the tournament is an Excellent chance for people to compete & try out their skills. I Definetly don't want to turn people off to it. I would love for there to be more competitors next year, so i can fight more than once (unless i lose again =) 

Mike is correct, it was due to my Bye in the first round & lack of competitors in my division. 

Sorry about that sir.

Enoch :asian:


----------



## pesilat (Mar 28, 2004)

Seigi said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> I apologize if i sounded offensive, i should have been clearer about my post. I was trying to get to the fact the tournament is an Excellent chance for people to compete & try out their skills. I Definetly don't want to turn people off to it. I would love for there to be more competitors next year, so i can fight more than once (unless i lose again =)
> 
> ...



Not a problem. I didn't intend to make you feel bad or sound defensive with my post - I just wanted to clarify in case someone misinterpreted your post.

Mike


----------



## Seigi (Mar 28, 2004)

Thank-you!!!

Peace artyon:


----------

