# So, what does the term "kali" really mean?



## JBrainard (Oct 9, 2008)

From the current Special Edition of FMA digest:



			
				Grandmaster Federico Lazo said:
			
		

> The word kali was in the Austronesean language that was once spoken in the Philippines about 5000 to 3500 years before Christ. Kali, in the Austronesean and Polynesian language means "stick."


 
Now, I've heard various opinions on MT regarding the origin of the term "kali." What do you FMA players out there think of Grandmaster Lazo's information? Do you agree? Disagree? Why?

Note: This post is not meant to be a pissing match about arnis history, I just thought that it would be an interesting topic of discussion.

~JB


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## Nolerama (Oct 9, 2008)

Screw history, "Kali" means "really functional TMA" to me.

And it looks cool, too.


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## geezer (Oct 9, 2008)

JBrainard said:


> From the current Special Edition of FMA digest:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Well, I've heard a few different explanations of the origin of the term. Some people claim its a modern a invention, adopted and applied first here in the United States, then making  it's way back to the Philippines. Some seem to use the term to imply some kind of greater _authenticity_ or antiquity to their art. I don't really buy into _that._  Others seemed to be looking for a traditional term that did not reflect Spanish or other outside influences found in the terms "arnis" and "escrima". Perhaps that was Dan Inosanto's reasoning? Either way, that's fine with me. I've heard that the Ilustrisimo system was originally known as "eskrima" and later adopted the term "kali". Hell, they could call it "Tatang's Tiddleywinks" and it would still be just as awesome. I agree with "Nolerama" as far as that goes...it isn't the name. but the substance behind it that matters.

Still, I would like to know the origin of the term and if it's use to describe the FMA is strictly a modern application. Does GM Lazo cite any scholarly sources?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 9, 2008)

Personally based on all the info out there I think it is a modern term.  However, it really is so unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


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## JBrainard (Oct 9, 2008)

geezer said:


> Well, I've heard a few different explanations of the origin of the term. Some people claim its a modern a invention, adopted and applied first here in the United States, then making it's way back to the Philippines. Some seem to use the term to imply some kind of greater _authenticity_ or antiquity to their art. I don't really buy into _that._ Others seemed to be looking for a traditional term that did not reflect Spanish or other outside influences found in the terms "arnis" and "escrima". Perhaps that was Dan Inosanto's reasoning? Either way, that's fine with me. I've heard that the Ilustrisimo system was originally known as "eskrima" and later adopted the term "kali"...Still, I would like to know the origin of the term and if it's use to describe the FMA is strictly a modern application. Does GM Lazo cite any scholarly sources?


 
GM Lazo addresses whether or not "kali" was origially a Filippino name in another article titled "Kali caused the change of the word Kali to the words Arnis and Escrima" ( http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/special-editions/2008/Special-Edition_Luzviminda-Brotherhood.pdf ).
In the articles he doesn't quote specific sources, he mearly debunks the other possible explanations through logical deduction. He is, however, almost finished with his book, which will cite sources.


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## JBrainard (Oct 9, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> ...However, it really is so unimportant in the grand scheme of things.


 
I would have to agree. I just can't resist MA history and all of it's "fact or legend" qualities.


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## tim_stl (Oct 10, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Screw history, "Kali" means "really functional TMA" to me.



anyone who wants 'truth' in their training should care.  just like many feel compelled to speak out against unsubstantiated claims of effectiveness or deadliness of certain training or technique, unsubstantiated claims about history should also be called out.  call it 'kali' if you like.  call it 'kali' because your teacher called it that, because it's easily recognized, because you want to dissociate it with the spanish, or because you just think it sounds cool - whatever makes you happy.  just don't claim that 'kali' is the original, and don't make up history to try to build up your art.

all that matters is that the art stays filipino, stays effective, and stays honest.



tim


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 10, 2008)

Isn't it a reference to the Godess Kali? :also, where we get the worrd Kill and Kiln?


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2008)

tim_stl said:


> ...call it 'kali' if you like...- whatever makes you happy. just don't claim that 'kali' is the original, and don't make up history to try to build up your art... *all that matters is that the art stays filipino, stays effective, and stays honest.*
> 
> tim


 
I think I agree... I mean honesty is good, right? Effectiveness too. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "...all that matters is that the art stays Filipino..." I'm not sure what else it could be.  

On the other hand, my first Eskrima instructor was Filipino-American. And there was as much of the modern "American" in his art as there was in his own background. My current instructor is Mexican-American. His life experiences influence what he teaches too. These guys are both honest and very very good at what they do. But their art isn't "pure" Filipino...whatever that is.  Rather it reflects who they are. Is that a problem?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> I think I agree... I mean honesty is good, right? Effectiveness too. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "...all that matters is that the art stays Filipino..." I'm not sure what else it could be.
> 
> On the other hand, my first Eskrima instructor was Filipino-American. And there was as much of the modern "American" in his art as there was in his own background. My current instructor is Mexican-American. His life experiences influence what he teaches too. These guys are both honest and very very good at what they do. But their art isn't "pure" Filipino...whatever that is. Rather it reflects who they are. Is that a problem?


Why should it remain Filipino? wouldn't modernizations serve a practitioner in battle?
Sean


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## Nolerama (Oct 10, 2008)

tim_stl said:


> *anyone who wants 'truth' in their training should care.*  just like many feel compelled to speak out against unsubstantiated claims of effectiveness or deadliness of certain training or technique, unsubstantiated claims about history should also be called out.



I was taught that Pluto was a planet. Apparently, it's not anymore. Truth in history? Truth as a commodity? I balk at that in many respects because "truth" is all about perspective, opinion, and hearsay.

Give me functionality. Or give me nothing at all.



tim_stl said:


> call it 'kali' if you like.  call it 'kali' because your teacher called it that, because it's easily recognized, because you want to dissociate it with the spanish, or because you just think it sounds cool - whatever makes you happy.  just don't claim that 'kali' is the original, and don't make up history to try to build up your art.



I'm not claiming anything. I'm saying that it's a really stylish, effective martial art (as an opinion). Chill out.



tim_stl said:


> all that matters is that the art stays filipino, stays effective, and stays honest.



I'm Filipino. But I don't think it should only be taught to Filipinos, or that Filipinos should be the only ones teaching it. That's just perpetuating a racist, unfounded belief that the Haves can do as they please and the Have-Nots can't. If you're saying that Kali's as a style should remain "Filipino" then I reiterate my previous statement. I think all MAs have a capacity to evolve and should. Why judge when, say, an American Kali practitioner finds a higher percentage technique and incorporates that into his/her training curriculum?


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## tim_stl (Oct 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> I think I agree... I mean honesty is good, right? Effectiveness too. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "...all that matters is that the art stays Filipino..." I'm not sure what else it could be.
> 
> On the other hand, my first Eskrima instructor was Filipino-American. And there was as much of the modern "American" in his art as there was in his own background. My current instructor is Mexican-American. His life experiences influence what he teaches too. These guys are both honest and very very good at what they do. But their art isn't "pure" Filipino...whatever that is.  Rather it reflects who they are. Is that a problem?



no problem at all.  my first two instructors were white americans.  i'm not filipino either.  probably just my poor choice of words.  what i meant was keep that 'filipino' flavor.  the thing that differentiates it from karate with sticks.



tim


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## tim_stl (Oct 10, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> I was taught that Pluto was a planet. Apparently, it's not anymore. Truth in history? Truth as a commodity? I balk at that in many respects because "truth" is all about perspective, opinion, and hearsay.
> 
> Give me functionality. Or give me nothing at all.



functionality in what?  dueling?  surviving against multiple attackers long enough to run away?  avoiding getting stabbed?  avoiding getting shot?  killing someone before they kill you?  protecting your family during a home invasion?  building motor skills as quickly and reliably as possible?  eliminating the 'freeze' response?  handling adrenaline dumps?

seems that functionality, even in the narrow area of martial arts, is all about perspective and opinion as well.



Nolerama said:


> I'm not claiming anything. I'm saying that it's a really stylish, effective martial art (as an opinion). Chill out.



i wasn't speaking to you in particular, i was using 'you' in the general sense.  i just quoted your post because it was the first one in the thread that denigrated any concern for an attempt at historical accuracy.  i didn't think you'd take it personally, it wasn't intended that way.  



Nolerama said:


> I'm Filipino. But I don't think it should only be taught to Filipinos, or that Filipinos should be the only ones teaching it.



i'm not filipino, i've learned fma from non-filipinos, i teach fma, and i teach non-filipinos.  i'm not saying that.  poor choice of words on my part.



tim


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## Nolerama (Oct 10, 2008)

Right on, Tim. I apologize if I came off as abrasive.


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## tim_stl (Oct 10, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Right on, Tim. I apologize if I came off as abrasive.



no sweat.  it's a sensitive subject, and i can see how my response was poorly put together.

have we met?  i've dropped by the training circle a couple saturdays.



tim


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## Nolerama (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm not sure. I'm not not usually there on Saturday. I go Mondays and Wednesdays, usually.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 11, 2008)

At this point, the term _kali_ has been used long enough in the USA for various FMA systems that it is now an accepted term, just as escrima and arnis are.  One could pick apart the historical value of the term but it is what it is - an accepted term by some/many for FMA.  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## tim_stl (Oct 13, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> I'm not sure. I'm not not usually there on Saturday. I go Mondays and Wednesdays, usually.



i'll try to get up there on a monday night next time i get one free.  i'd be interested in meeting you.



tim


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## free2flow (Oct 28, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> I'm Filipino. quote]
> 
> Very glad to know that one more fellow Filipino is doing some FMA training in St. Louis area. That makes a total of 5 of us that I knew of. Well, hopefully more Filipinos will discover the beauty and effectiveness of their own martial art.
> Take care and hope to meet you soon .


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## arnisador (Oct 28, 2008)

There are seminars in Western Indiana (Terre Haute, Evansville) from time to time, so maybe you'll make the drive some day! Jerson Tortal of DTS was here recently.


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## tim_stl (Oct 28, 2008)

arnisador said:


> There are seminars in Western Indiana (Terre Haute, Evansville) from time to time, so maybe you'll make the drive some day! Jerson Tortal of DTS was here recently.



i attended a seminar in evansille at rising phoenix martial arts academy recently.  great bunch of guys there.

there are also fma seminars in st. louis fairly frequently.  guro dan inosanto comes every year, grandmaster bob tabimina was just here for the second time, and gat puno abon baet will be here nov 22-23.



tim


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