# A message to moderators and members.



## SensibleManiac (Jun 13, 2007)

Looking at alot of the posts here on Martial Talk I've discovered something I tend to see in alot of other Forums. 
People with nothing to say.
I notice that alot of the discussion posts are about heresay. Furthermore there's alot of negativity, mostly coming from people who probably don't even train in the martial arts. 
Most of it is that this art or that art wouldn't work. Or this Teacher or that teacher have been in some mess or another, (they rarely specify exactly what or why) and that since then they have lost or are in the process of losing all their students.
It seems that almost no positive or progressive information is offered on these sites. 
My message is to Moderators and members alike to start posting with a higher standard. Both of yourselves and your writing.
If you have something to say against an art or teacher how about substantiating it with verifiable FACTS. And how about having a positive point to what you're saying.
How about we ALL start spending our time online more productively?


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## Kacey (Jun 13, 2007)

Interestingly enough, compared to the other forums I've been on, I've found MT and it's affiliates to be the most positive, supportive, and informative forum of it's type.  On the other hand, there will be people who say otherwise, who will focus solely on the relatively rare negative posts, or who have the bad luck to find those few negative posts on their first visit.

I am quite curious, however, if you find this forum "unproductive", why you chose to join?


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## Monadnock (Jun 13, 2007)

What would you like to talk about?


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## mrhnau (Jun 13, 2007)

I think I'll take a stab at this.



SensibleManiac said:


> Looking at alot of the posts here on Martial Talk I've discovered something I tend to see in alot of other Forums.
> People with nothing to say.


Then say something. Being that this is your first post, what kind of impression are you offering?



> I notice that alot of the discussion posts are about heresay. Furthermore there's alot of negativity, mostly coming from people who probably don't even train in the martial arts.
> Most of it is that this art or that art wouldn't work. Or this Teacher or that teacher have been in some mess or another, (they rarely specify exactly what or why) and that since then they have lost or are in the process of losing all their students.
> It seems that almost no positive or progressive information is offered on these sites.


Simply put, there is alot of this type of discussion in the martial arts. Lots of "he said, she said" stuff. Lots of heresay. I'm not suprised that happens here too.


> My message is to Moderators and members alike to start posting with a higher standard. Both of yourselves and your writing.
> If you have something to say against an art or teacher how about substantiating it with verifiable FACTS. And how about having a positive point to what you're saying.
> How about we ALL start spending our time online more productively?


There is a reason there is alot of heresay in martial arts. Your precious "FACTS" are often very hard to verify. I can't go back 200 years and interview some old master. Nor does training with someone verify their claims. Even masters/scholars differ on opinions. Thats part of it. Just because someone has a different philosophy or style does not disqualify them their independent voice, at least not here.

Want us to spend our time online more productively. OK, sure. Please inform how your post is making MT a better place? Why not provide some of this "positive, progressive and verifiable FACT" so we can all enjoy it? I will state though, considering that your first post was nothing but negative, people will consider your forthcoming posts quite critically.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 13, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> Looking at alot of the posts here on Martial Talk I've discovered something I tend to see in alot of other Forums.
> People with nothing to say.
> I notice that alot of the discussion posts are about heresay. Furthermore there's alot of negativity, mostly coming from people who probably don't even train in the martial arts.
> Most of it is that this art or that art wouldn't work. Or this Teacher or that teacher have been in some mess or another, (they rarely specify exactly what or why) and that since then they have lost or are in the process of losing all their students.
> ...


 

oooookaaaaayyyyy.....well.... welcome to Martial Talk! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I agree and as is an everyday thing...it all starts by looking at the person in the mirror. Follow your own advice and set an example.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 13, 2007)

Feel free to lead by example.

Looking forward to your next posts meaningful contribution to the specifics of martial development,

Dave


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## The Master (Jun 13, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> Looking at alot of the posts here on Martial Talk I've discovered something I tend to see in alot of other Forums.
> People with nothing to say.
> I notice that alot of the discussion posts are about heresay. Furthermore there's alot of negativity, mostly coming from people who probably don't even train in the martial arts.
> Most of it is that this art or that art wouldn't work. Or this Teacher or that teacher have been in some mess or another, (they rarely specify exactly what or why) and that since then they have lost or are in the process of losing all their students.
> ...


An interesting and somewhat true statement, to a degree.

As forums grow, the signal to noise ratio changes. Also, trolls and critics and know nothing busy bodies move in. This site does a better job that a few others I could name (but won't since it's against policy) at funneling chat to certain areas.

Also, after almost a decade in operation, some topics just get played out and tired, and fall into the archives.  Searching, you'll find good content.  You have to remember too, this site is open to all levels, from the beginner to the serious, so the quality will be mixed.

Of course, more in-depth serious and professional discussion is always welcome, without the venom and ill will often found on other sites. The search for the indepth and serious is ongoing, and a standard I try to hold myself to always.


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## Drac (Jun 13, 2007)

The Master said:


> Of course, more in-depth serious and professional discussion is always welcome, without the venom and ill will often found on other sites..


 
Well said Master...


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## Yeti (Jun 13, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Interestingly enough, compared to the other forums I've been on, I've found MT and it's affiliates to be the most positive, supportive, and informative forum of it's type. On the other hand, there will be people who say otherwise, who will focus solely on the relatively rare negative posts, or who have the bad luck to find those few negative posts on their first visit.
> 
> I am quite curious, however, if you find this forum "unproductive", why you chose to join?


 
I agree with Kacey. 
If you don't like what you see, why join? 
If there's enough here that you do like, instead of using a negative tone to say that "...almost no positive or progressive information is offered...", why not lead by example and start threads that you feel *would* provide progressive information.  Your profile says you train MMA...jump into that forum and have at it. 

You must have spent a *lot* of time reading *all* the posts on this forum to develop an opinion that, on the whole, this forum is filled with negativity - but I wonder exactly how many and which posts you read that led you to that decision. While there will always be some degree of negativity and a "my dad is better than your dad" attitude from some folks, the vast majority of posts that I've read and/or been involved with since I joined this forum in (2005) have been quite positive - even when people disagree about the subject at hand.


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## jim777 (Jun 13, 2007)

Well, the original post was certainly a positive and enlightening waste of 15 seconds! 
I think this is a great site, and I've seen many, many instances of posters making very sure the things they say are backed up with facts, and firsthand knowledge where that is possible. I've seen very little time given to hearsay, and I've seen many people be extremely respectful of arts other than their own, and to practioners they don't know as well. The respect on post 1 level here is extremely high. I don't know where you've wandered over from, but I have to say I'm a bit curious now, in that it has evidently contributed to your poor impression of this site.

jim


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 13, 2007)

Welcome to MartialTalk and I think you will find this forum to be geared towards friendly and informative conversation.  There is a lot that you can learn here and offer if you so choose.  Good luck.


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## terryl965 (Jun 13, 2007)

Well I for one dis-agree with wha you are saying first off this place is tamed compared to other forums. We have some of the best people that train in various arts so if you would like a intelligent converstation about techniques lets talk, if not join us in the lounge for drinks and BS.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 13, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I am quite curious, however, if you find this forum "unproductive", why you chose to join?


 
Excellent points all round, ladies and gentlemen, I choose to highlight this small fragment because it's the thought that occurred to me first (well that and wondering if my katana are still effective versus cough ... cough ... trolls ... cough ... in these enlightened times).

Sorry, couldn't help myself there - not a very productive contribution really, other than a nod in the direction of the aim of the first post :lol:.

Perhaps I had better re- read *Handswords* advice "it all starts by looking at the person in the mirror" - so very true my friend.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 13, 2007)

I don't want to contribute anything that might substantiate a claim of negativity, but my first thought was, give some examples to back up such sweeping condemnation--at least, tell us a specific _thread_ (so no one person is singled out). But as *HS* and *Suke* have said, I don't mind taking a hard look in the mirror, too. I can always get better.


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## bluemtn (Jun 13, 2007)

Well, this site is certainly more positive and more "entertaining" (a lot more posts, etc.) than at least one other forum that I can name right now.  And before you can even hint at it, I'm not just saying that because I'm a moderator and trying to convince others of what I say.  I'm a moderator because of the fact that this site is and has been so positive since before I joined, which was 3 years ago.  I want to help support something that is a positive influence for others.  Sure, there are a few on here that aren't martial artists, but that's fine-  this place is a "friendly discussion forum," which I take it as being everyone is welcome to come and join in the conversations.

Now, as a moderator or mentor, we strive to keep the flame wars down, trolls held at bay, and good topics flowing, all with the help also with our regular posters.  Sure, we get a few in here that aren't so positive or contributing, but we aren't going to kick them out just because of those reasons.  Feel free to refer to our "terms of service" to get a feel of what is acceptable here.

With all that said, however, I want to say welcome and happy posting.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 13, 2007)

I'm just here for the nuts.












ok, seriously, you will find alot of casual discussion. We're more laid back than alot of boards, but I think if you dig, you'll find some very intense discussions.  Right now, we're undergoing a major reorganization, and will be emphasizing more of a focus on solid and serious discussions. We're also going to stay as warm and fuzzy as we have been too, since that is what got us this far. 

So, start or join some serious topics and lets really dig into things in depth.


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## stickarts (Jun 13, 2007)

Welcome to MT! I look forward to your positive contributions and perspectives!


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## arnisador (Jun 13, 2007)

The Master said:


> This site does a better job that a few others I could name (but won't since it's against policy)



That makes me wonder, Why? Are those other sites more attractive than this one somehow?



> The search for the indepth and serious is ongoing, and a standard I try to hold myself to always.


Yup.

As to why the o.p. joined, I don't know...but if he is trying to raise the level of the site, that's great. Just as criticizing one's country isn't treason, criticizing one's web site can also be intended as constructive.



> If you have something to say against an art or teacher how about substantiating it with verifiable FACTS. And how about having a positive point to what you're saying.
> How about we ALL start spending our time online more productively?


Makes sense to me.

Welcome aboard, dude! Start something serious and see what happens!


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## Drac (Jun 13, 2007)

arnisador said:


> That makes me wonder, Why? Are those other sites more attractive than this one somehow


 
I am a member of a few of the "*other" *sites under different names, and I cannot recall the last time I visited them willingly..One I have been back to since my 3rd post...This IS the place to be..


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## Obliquity (Jun 13, 2007)

I hope you go away. Seriously.


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## arnisador (Jun 13, 2007)

Drac said:


> I am a member of a few of the "*other" *sites under different names, and I cannot recall the last time I visited them willingly



Yeah, with the obvious exception, I visit most of them only occasionally, and usually just to find specific info.


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## Carol (Jun 13, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Yeah, with the obvious exception, I visit most of them only occasionally, and usually just to find specific info.



Hee hee...I like the obvious exception


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## mrhnau (Jun 13, 2007)

well, I see his account is under review. I'm not a mod, but I'd suggest a bit of leniency, unless he is a disgruntled previously banned guy coming in to gripe (which I considered a possibility). He might have some decent content. I think a few posts will tell his merit, if he has actually decent content of is satisfied just being an incessant complainer...



> I am a member of a few of the "*other" *sites under different names, and I cannot recall the last time I visited them willingly..One I have been back to since my 3rd post...This IS the place to be..


I'm a member of a few others too... aside from computer specific forums, I don't post anywhere else really...


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## MA-Caver (Jun 13, 2007)

tkdgirl said:


> Well, this site is certainly more positive and more "entertaining" (a lot more posts, etc.) than at least one other forum that I can name right now.  And before you can even hint at it, I'm not just saying that because I'm a moderator and trying to convince others of what I say.  I'm a moderator because of the fact that this site is and has been so positive since before I joined, which was 3 years ago.  I want to help support something that is a positive influence for others.  Sure, there are a few on here that aren't martial artists, but that's fine-  this place is a "friendly discussion forum," which I take it as being everyone is welcome to come and join in the conversations.
> 
> Now, as a moderator or mentor, we strive to keep the flame wars down, trolls held at bay, and good topics flowing, all with the help also with our regular posters.  Sure, we get a few in here that aren't so positive or contributing, but we aren't going to kick them out just because of those reasons.  Feel free to refer to our "terms of service" to get a feel of what is acceptable here.
> 
> With all that said, however, I want to say welcome and happy posting.



I'll agree with TKDGirl's words and that of several others. This site is probably one of the better ones out there. The mods and mentors go trolling for trolls (pardon the pun) frequently and there's that little red triangle where if someone's post offends you (or anyone else) then hit that and it's quickly looked at and taken care of. 
That being said... 

There are a large number of (real) martial artists in this forum and several of them are high ranking instructors of various arts and a few more are of mid rank: 3rd to 5th Dans. That says a lot that they're here and been here for quite a while. 

As far as the non-MA discussions... well sad as it seems there IS more to life than just Martial Arts... yes folks ya'll know it's true... my own thread is proof of that... :lol: 

Stick around, give us a trial period. Be assertive and ask and start threads of your own... but of course use the search engine well because after half a million posts and counting surely someone had already asked a question that you might have. If not... there ya go, knock yourself out because we'd like to hear it. 
Likewise we'd like to hear a bit more about yourself.  

Happy posting!


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## Shaderon (Jun 14, 2007)

Like everyone says, if you don't like the posts here feel free to try and raise the standard, but you can't do anything about it if you don't post.   Join in and experience MT and lets see if you can change your mind about us.


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## Skip Cooper (Jun 14, 2007)

I think if one is looking for negativity, one will find it. There is nothing you can do about that.  

As others have more eloquently stated before me, I have had only positive experiences with MT.  From serious conversations to playing around, it has all been great.  I joined MT not only for the serious topics discussed, but to be part of a community of like minded people.  We all may train in different arts, but the common thread is that we train.  

Despite your opening post, I welcome you to MT.  I hope you can begin to enjoy your visits and I look forward to more of your posts.


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## Last Fearner (Jun 14, 2007)

First of all, Hi SensibleManiac, and welcome to Martial Talk! :wavey:

Ok.....I need to be positive here.... let me see. I found your post to be rather amusing, Sensible M. I too have encountered other Martial Art forums that were far worse than what you described. However, when I first happened upon Martial Talk, I read many posts and was very impressed with the way things are run here. Sure, there are bound to be some problems, but each one is addressed professionally by the people who "run" this forum.

What amused me about your post is that it seems you were reading negative posts on a different website, then came here and posted your comments. From my experience, they don't seem to match up! 

Secondly, after reading many posts here, and deciding to join this wonderful community, the first thing I did was to do the polite and respectful thing and introduce myself in the "meet and greet" section.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=115

I really don't understand why you didn't do this. Wouldn't you want the "first impression" you give to other members here to be a friendly, polite and courteous one rather that a negative post of complaints. It seems to be that if you are going to judge this website's forums, members, and moderators, you would first gather your "facts" by reading a lot of posts. If you had read a lot, then it seems you would have known that new members are requested to introduce themselves in the "meet and greet."



SensibleManiac said:


> Looking at alot of the posts here on Martial Talk I've discovered something I tend to see in alot of other Forums.
> People with nothing to say.


Did you really read "alot" of the posts here on Martial Talk? Your failure to post an introduction, and your opinion of the threads here tell me otherwise. Perhaps you read a select few. Perhaps you noticed some of the ones that are the exception rather than the rule. Is this what you base your opening criticisms, and lecture on? Did you check the dates at the tops of the posts. I have noticed that when I browse through the archives, I read posts from 2002 - 2005 of people who are no longer active, and were clearly not very knowledgeable. Many early posts were rude, and inconsiderate of others. This site has grown over the years, and I believe that if you see the kind of posts you are concerned about, it is a rare occurrence, and dealt with through proper channels.

This brings me to my next point.



SensibleManiac said:


> My message is to Moderators and members alike to start posting with a higher standard. Both of yourselves and your writing.


Do you really feel that you are being respectful here, and following proper channels. There are ways to address concerns directly with moderators, or the sites administrators. Were you having specific problems here at Martial Talk yourself, and failed to get any response? Is this why you decided to make an open declaration to everyone here. Perhaps you believe you are the example that everyone should follow, and it is your duty to set us all straight on how to behave online. As others have asked, did you set a good example by your first post here?

By looking at yourself, and your one an only post on MT thus far, do you see yourself as this::wavey:  :asian:

or as this? :readrules :soapbox: :tantrum:


*Please Read The Following Excerpts Carefully!*



SensibleManiac said:


> Looking at alot of the posts here...
> 
> I've discovered something...
> 
> ...


 
Yes, how about we *ALL* do that! 

Welcome to MT, and happy posting Sensible M. :asian:

Chief Master Darwin J. Eisenhart


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## exile (Jun 17, 2007)

Last Fearner said:
			
		

> Did you really read "alot" of the posts here on Martial Talk?



I was wondering the same thing...

I've been involved in _many_ thread discussions/debates/controversies on MT&#8212;and there's nothing inherently negative about debates, controversies or arguments!&#8212;in which important points of historical, technical and ethical content were debated, with abundant references to high-level sources offered to back up specific claims bearing on the issues . I have also seen threads pursuing topics as diverse as the nature of Ockham's Razor, microgenetic factors in hominid evolution and the value of low vs. high intensity weight training, with good information and pointers to reputable literature supplied and plenty of first-hand expertise in evidence. I've also observed that, for the most part, threads characterized by negativity on _all_ sides are relatively rare, that when these occur they tend to consist of shouting matches between two or three participants which drive all but the antagonists out of the thread&#8212;often in spite of repeated moderator warnings&#8212;and that once things get to that point, mod intervention kicks in and the thread goes `time out' until people calm down and show they can play nicely. The OP comments here certainly apply to a few MA discussion boards we all know and don't love, but it was precisely the contrast between MT and those other sites in these respects that led me to join here, after several months of lurking. 

So I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out just what the target of the OP _is_ here&#8212;unless, as LF's post suggests, the OPer actually hasn't read that widely over the full range of MT fora. And if that's the case, the remedy is simple: read a bit more. A lot more. And try to avoid formulating, um, negative judgments until you've got enough of an evidence base to arrive at a well-informed opinion. Just a thought...


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## SensibleManiac (Jun 18, 2007)

Ok, let me take a HUGE step back here.
Sorry for not replying sooner my account was frozen for a technicality, (forgot to put my city and Province in Profile)
Ok, my intro post came about like this:
I read some of the posts on the site and was quite impressed and wanted to take part. Then I joined and in reading further I saw some of what I see on many other sites like this. I just figured that if I and WE spend time reading and posting here, why not keep it a place where we can have fun and be informed and have some productive discussion. 
It just bothers me when I see people slander others with things that are not verifiable. All I'm really saying is that if statements are made about arts or people and those statements are made as facts then make sure you are factual. 
Let's talk as if we were really face to face. I find that most people wouldn't say the things they do if it weren't for the anonymity of the internet.
Anyways, I did not mean for this to come out as a negative post and am really glad that most people didn't take it that way. In the end all I meant was, let's keep our standards to what most of the talk on this site is like and not allow it to degenerate. 
I look forward to some positive and fun discussions and even arguments.

As for myself I come from a mostly combat sport background. (BJJ, Boxing, Thai Boxing, MMA) but have some RBSD training as well as more traditional arts like Japanese Jujutsu. But because of age, I'm only 35 but can really feel the difference from 25 and I'm not as much of a maniac as I used to be. Currently, I try to apply my skills in a more self defense approach. 
Thanks for everyone's feedback I hope I didn't come across as too abrasive.


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## shesulsa (Jun 18, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> I read some of the posts on the site and was quite impressed and wanted to take part. Then I joined and in reading further I saw some of what I see on many other sites like this. I just figured that if I and WE spend time reading and posting here, why not keep it a place where we can have fun and be informed and have some productive discussion.
> It just bothers me when I see people slander others with things that are not verifiable. All I'm really saying is that if statements are made about arts or people and those statements are made as facts then make sure you are factual.



I'm not sure which part of the board you read after joining that you did not read before joining.  The board has not changed structure - perhaps you found a forum called "The Great Debate" or "Horror Stories" wherein we try to keep only reasonable gossip and sometimes head-to-head discussion.

The Study is a forum where you'll find mostly political and sociological discussions and debate, and you're likely to see some troll droppings around.  Other than that, we work very hard at maintaining MartialTalk's "friendly" feel, believing in the tenets of politeness/manners, general mutual respect, intelligent exchange and fun.

Please take some time to read the "Rules" - not just for yourself, but so that you understand what we do and do not tolerate here.  And as you're reading, if you find a post you think is in violation of the rules, feel free to report the post to the staff using the little red triangle in the right top corner of each post.  Using this feature helps us identify what our membership doesn't like, doesn't want to see - and we can't always read every single post on the board.



> Let's talk as if we were really face to face. I find that most people wouldn't say the things they do if it weren't for the anonymity of the internet.



Indeed.   A good benchmark, that.

Welcome to MartialTalk and I hope your experience is positive and enjoyable and that you learn something as well.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 18, 2007)

SensibleManiac said:


> Ok, let me take a HUGE step back here.
> 
> <snip>some fine explanatory words</end snip>
> 
> Thanks for everyone's feedback I hope I didn't come across as too abrasive.


 

Good man :tup:.  

I'm afraid I'm one of those who took your words in a fashion other than they were intended.  

I (mis)read your initial post as a classic 'baiter' (if rather better written than most) from a Disguised Fishing Troll i.e. something worded so as not to get deleted immediately but inflammatory enough to enbristle (did I just create a new word ) the hackles of the established membership.  

My apologies for the dis-service : gomen nasai :.

So, in best 'clean slate' fashion, welcome aboard the good ship *MT* and I hope that you soon settle in, revelling in the excellent company to be found here.


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