# 10 year old black belt



## rachel (Oct 17, 2002)

I am starting karate  soon but my question is this. At the kempo school my daughter attends there is a 10 year old black belt. How is that possible? Could he be a jr black belt? I mean, I'm sure he's good,he helps teach but there's a big difference between an adult and a child,no? I know he could kick my butt though.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 17, 2002)

We just had 1 promoted in our school as well. I think he might be 11 or 12 but that's beside the point. Their requirements are a lot less than the adults for obvious reasons. The little guy promoted in our school has been there for 6 yrs. now. He also has two older brothers as well at jr. black. Once he moves into the next curruculum he'll need to learn a lot more basics, forms, sets, and a ton more techniques. Does this help.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## rachel (Oct 17, 2002)

You said what I was trying  to  say. The requirements being different. It's amazing at my daughters school the black and brown belts are so young. We'll see how I do soon.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 17, 2002)

Yeah, it seems that it's a lot of kids taking the martial arts anymore. Mostly from like 6 to about 17 maybe. The thing about kenpo is don't get discouraged. And the big must is, you have to ask a lot of questions if you don't understand something. 
Good luck,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Idaten (Oct 17, 2002)

Is Isshin-ryu, one cannot become an adult Black Belt until the age of 16.


----------



## rachel (Oct 17, 2002)

my daughter is 8. she started last month and is a yellow belt going for 1st stripe on thursday. she loves it so I figure I'll try too. I  can do everything she can because after I run her through the drill, she runs me through it too.


----------



## Carbon (Oct 17, 2002)

1 month and she has obtained yellow? 

I think the guy I was talking to at my belt is 2nd degree white and has been there for like a month or two.


----------



## Deathtrap101 (Oct 17, 2002)

it all depends on the teacher how soon someone gets a belt(obviously) some like to give yellow out real early some after a few months(got mine in 2 months) and one kid i met at a tournament didnt get his untill 1 year after he started.  Some have differant philosophies in how they train others are out for money, both have verying times in when they giveo ut belts. Nothing anybody never knew before but i felt like sayin' it.


----------



## TkdWarrior (Oct 18, 2002)

a black belt should be 10 yr old rather than 10 yr old black belt...
boys will be boys untill they grow up... 

-TkdWarrior-


----------



## Seig (Oct 18, 2002)

I tend to be very conservative in my belts promotions.  It takes anywhere from three to six months to get yellow from me.  I have one of my adults that has been with me almost 18 months and he is getting his purple next week.


----------



## Damian Mavis (Oct 18, 2002)

Just a little FYI Rachel... black belt doesn't mean anything about how tough or actual combat ability someone has.  Thats an old myth.  So wondering if a child can kick your butt just because they wear a black belt is kinda silly.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Phil Elmore (Oct 18, 2002)

I absolutely despise the practice of granting children high-level rank.  You ought not be able to become a blackbelt until you're at _least_ of legal age.


----------



## rachel (Oct 18, 2002)

actually I made a mistake. My daughter started in mid August and has a yellow belt going for first stripe


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I absolutely despise the practice of granting children high-level rank.  You ought not be able to become a blackbelt until you're at least of legal age. *



Gotta agree. Personally I would make 18 a requirement. Don't care if anyone else likes it either.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Gotta agree. Personally I would make 18 a requirement. Don't care if anyone else likes it either.
> *



I have to agree as well. They really need to know and understand the knowledge that has been passed onto them. I started at 15 and would have liked to have started earlier but actually now I think it was a better choice to come in later. It helped in learning the material easier.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Deathtrap101 (Oct 18, 2002)

> I have to agree as well. They really need to know and understand the knowledge that has been passed onto them. I started at 15 and would have liked to have started earlier but actually now I think it was a better choice to come in later. It helped in learning the material easier.



dito.....

 Though im still 15.....ill be 16 next month. 

A freind of mine is 16 and he just received his black belt over the summer, he has bin training for about 7 years now. To me, he seems black belt worthy(though he didnt so fair so well when he got to nationals, he did very well at provincials), but thats just me.


----------



## Angus (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Carbon _
> 
> *1 month and she has obtained yellow?
> 
> I think the guy I was talking to at my belt is 2nd degree white and has been there for like a month or two. *



What art?


----------



## Carbon (Oct 19, 2002)

American Kempo Karate


----------



## muayThaiPerson (Oct 19, 2002)

the kids a jr black belt. so when he moves to the next level, what belt will he be?


----------



## Angus (Oct 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *the kids a jr black belt. so when he moves to the next level, what belt will he be? *



Usually they don't move on to another belt until they move into the adult class, whereupon they usually either keep their jr. black until they get the adult full black, or they go to an equivalent belt in the adult program (in our school it's first blue).


----------



## muayThaiPerson (Oct 19, 2002)

oh..thanks for the clarification


----------



## tigerstorm (Oct 19, 2002)

I have always gone along with the idea of 16 a student could be promoted to black rank, but thats beside the point.  My main question was along the lines of what happens to a student who has earned a jr. black and then becomes, whatever the age is 16 or 18, and is looking at being an adult.  How do you take a rank away from them that you gave to them. Of course Im guessing that you dont, but then how do you tell them "well yeah you were higher than all these people but now your the same equivalant rank as they are".  Im just curious how you go about the transition of (demoting)?
  Tigerstorm


----------



## cdhall (Oct 20, 2002)

1. In our school a "child" may go through to 3rd Degree Jr. Black, 4th Jr. Black does not exist, at this point, they become a 1st Degree Black Belt which is an Adult Rank.

The kids belts look different, they all have a white stripe running through them.  All the kids belts, including Jr. Yellow Belt are denoted by "Junior" so that you can tell that they are on a kids program.  Their certificates are writen this way as well.

2. I think at 18, the "child" is converted to an adult belt rank no matter where they are in the curriculum.

3. A few weeks ago in Boy Scouts, we reviewed a child for his Star rank.  It was basically an oral interview between us 3 adults and him.  He was so well composed, so well spoken, so thoroughly knowledgeable that we thought he must be 16, but he was kind of small, so we thought he might be 14.  He was 11.  He was amazing.  He could teach anything he had been tested on; knots, first aid, etc.  So I think a child could be trained who could teach material for Black Belt.  

4. But I could kick his but, I hope.  He is Very Likely not physically mature enough to stop me unless he grew up in China or something and has been working 6hrs a day... for life and is some type of an acrobatic genius or something.  I mean, it is possible that you could train a 10 year old to beat a grown adult but it is not likely.  It would be hard for them to reach the head with an effective strike, and it would be hard for them to strike nerve centers or vital points with enough vigor to disable a 180lb adult.  I am assuming of course that this kid is about 4 1/2 or 5 ft tall and weighs less than 100 lbs.  Andre the Giant or Shaquille O'Neal might have been able to take out an adult when they were 10.  But I don't know.

I hope this helps.  I think you have to be 18 to get an Adult Black Belt in our School because it is an issue of physical (and even mental) maturity. 
:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 20, 2002)

my advice would be:

make sure you're at a school where the teacher understands that its what's in your head that matters, not what's tied around your waist.  As long as the teacher is more focused on knowledge than rank, you're probably okay.


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 20, 2002)

i dont think 10 yr olds are mature enough to understand the responsibility of a black belt, but i do agree on the whole" jr. black belt method".  it gives kids a goal to obtain, while still keeping them in line as far as where they stand vs. the adults.

the school i used to go to seemed to pump out black belts as young as 8 or 9, and there was no distinction between jr. and adult.  this was a poor practice in my opinion.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 20, 2002)

I think the major distinction is their age. I don't see why a young person in the 8-12 year old class couldn't receive the title of black belt simply because of his age. If he has mastered the forms, and techniques required by his class then he should have the title. My school does not use the belt system so I'm a bit unfamiliar with it, however we do use a level system and it is not restricted. The tests are the same for all ages with the obvious exception to actual fighting and some technique allowance. Kids under 12 years old also have to start their "rank" over when goign to the adult class. I don't think anyone would expect a black level 29 year old and a black level 12 year old to be on the same level.

JMO

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 20, 2002)

the problem with very young black belts is this:

tying a black belt around someone's waist gives them a certain level of respect and authority.  Others in the studio will look up to them.  They need to be able to set an example, and they need to have a thorough understanding of not only the sets and techniques, but of the philosophies and theories behind them. Most children have trouble with this.  Hence, the title of Junior black belt, usually a black belt with a white stripe down the middle, indicating that they still have much to learn, but a Jr. Black is an acknowledgement of the training and skill they have acquired thus far, and a reminder that they still have much to learn...

or...

at least, it should be.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *the problem with very young black belts is this:
> 
> ...



I could agree to that, being in a system with no belts I guess its hard for me to grasp the full reach of the situation. I don't see why a Jr BB or Black belt with a white stripe would or should be objectable, I would think it would be a good thing, but like I said, being in a system wihtout belts makes it hard for me to understand completely I guess.

7sm


----------



## Damian Mavis (Oct 20, 2002)

My younger black belts behave like black belts, if they didn't I would take their belt back.  I think it's really up to the instructor to insure quality of black belt no matter what age.  I've got a couple of 12 year old black belts that could literally kick any other 12 year olds hiney but they behave with honour, respect and integrity.  If they werent as serious as their adult counter parts I wouldnt have let them test for black belt in the first place.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 20, 2002)

We will test a person for Black Belt at sixteen if they have the ability and knowledge but not befor that. We require a mental awareness of many things that might be hard for a younger person to know about.  Also I have to belive I can put my life in that persons hands. 
Our belt test at that lvelis verry physical and the Sanchine is not done just once but a few times and we do test the strenght of it severly.  
Personaly I never belived in the jr. ranking. A person either has the rank or they do not.
Shadow


----------



## JDenz (Oct 20, 2002)

I like the Bjj belt system.  You can't even get a blue until you are 16 =-)


----------



## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

Should be a standard
But would kill wallet sise

No flame just fact.

><><><


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Oct 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> 
> *I like the Bjj belt system.  You can't even get a blue until you are 16 =-) *


I think Joe Moriera's ranking they have one or two belt ranks before blue for kids only. I believe Roy Harris may have something at his site about this. Have not been there in awhile. royharris.com
Bob:asian:


----------



## JDenz (Oct 20, 2002)

Ya I have seen some schools that have yellow and orange for the kids.   ANother thing that I hate is people that obviously are not very skillful gettting a belt because they have been at the studio so long.


----------



## Qasim (Oct 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I could agree to that, being in a system with no belts I guess its hard for me to grasp the full reach of the situation. I don't see why a Jr BB or Black belt with a white stripe would or should be objectable, I would think it would be a good thing, but like I said, being in a system wihtout belts makes it hard for me to understand completely I guess.
> 
> 7sm *




Try this, would you want a ten year old making decisions for you just because he knew the rules but didn't have the life experience to go with it?

:shrug:


----------



## ace (Oct 20, 2002)

><><><


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *My younger black belts behave like black belts, if they didn't I would take their belt back.  I think it's really up to the instructor to insure quality of black belt no matter what age.  I've got a couple of 12 year old black belts that could literally kick any other 12 year olds hiney but they behave with honour, respect and integrity.  If they werent as serious as their adult counter parts I wouldnt have let them test for black belt in the first place.
> 
> ...



are they on par with other black belts of any age?  do they have the same amount of knowledge as the adults?  I think your stance on honour and integrity is excellent.  I;ve seen too many schools that aren't that way.


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *We will test a person for Black Belt at sixteen if they have the ability and knowledge but not befor that. We require a mental awareness of many things that might be hard for a younger person to know about.  Also I have to belive I can put my life in that persons hands.
> Our belt test at that lvelis verry physical and the Sanchine is not done just once but a few times and we do test the strenght of it severly.
> ...



I think the issue here is that an instructor who teaches children (and children do tend to be the lifeblood of any commercial studio, if you're trying to make a living), you have to have some way to acknowledge their hard work, while at the same time, reinforcing that they are not on par with the adults.  Junior ranks are a good way to do this, especially if the belts look different.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ace _
> 
> *><><>< *



If you were asking me, no I do not wear a sash. Some of the younger kids will wear a sash as appropriate to theri level, but we aren't even given that option. We have a level system simply for testing purposes, but no one really talks much about the levels. Basically all the levels prove is how long you have been there and how mnay forms you know. Most early forms are Wah Lum so that distinguishes it. Normally the longer the serious student studies the better they get, but there are those who train harder at their level than someone above them, but it generaly stays true.

7sm


----------



## Damian Mavis (Oct 21, 2002)

Ya my child black belts can execute tecniques as well as if not better than my adult black belts, however their smaller bodies don't allow their techniques to be as powerful... but wow some of them hit hard for their size!  As for knowledge yes they all need to know the same material for the written test in order to pass for black belt.   BUT!!  There are things I only teach people that are 18 and over, it has nothing to do with the TKD curriculum so the kids get everything they are supposed to but I don't feel comfortable teaching a child how to crush a mans throat.... 

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 21, 2002)

i agree that a child should not be taught crushing blows.  there are some things that can wait until the appropriate age.  

the problem with not promoting children to high ranks is that most parents just don't understand their child needs to be physically and mentally "ready" for a rank level.  if you teach and promote this way,  (which i think is correct) they will most likely take their kid elsewhere to some "belt factory"...  sad but true.


----------



## Damian Mavis (Oct 21, 2002)

Yes there has to be a happy median.  Still staying by the standards of black belt level but still allowing dedicated, serious children to attain that level.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## ZenYuchia (Oct 25, 2002)

You think you guys advance slowly I have been practicing Kung-Fu for more than three years and I am a yellow sash. Note highest ranked student of school is a red sash and has 10+ years of practice there.


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 25, 2002)

I've had 13 years of kenpo and am only a brown belt.


----------



## Cthulhu (Oct 25, 2002)

I've rambled about this before, long ago, but what the heck...

I echo Gou's view...no black belt until 18 years of age.

I was going to ramble on about exactly why I think this, but damn...the reasons are fairly obvious.

And the reason black belts are given (sold, given...same difference) to children is also fairly obvious.

I could see testing someone for black belt as early as 16, provided they've proven to be extremely excellent students and also demonstrated a high level of maturity and responsibility, but never a 10-year-old.  Either give them a junior-black belt rank, or let them stay a brown belt (or equivalent) until they are *really* ready to test for black.

Cthulhu


----------



## kenposcum (Oct 26, 2002)

Giving a kid a black belt is disgraceful.
Some things just scream "McDojo!!!!"
If you call it a "junior" black belt, things are a little different...but still, I wouldn't even want to give them the opportunity to say "I'm a black belt! And then get creamed by some dude with an axe to grind..."
And Nightingale, you say you've got 13 years in Kenpo and are still a brown.  What you didn't tell us is how many HOURS you've got in.  The Old Man said "We'd prefer not to measure in terms of months or years, but in terms of HIGHLY CONCENTRATED HOURS [emphasis mine]."  So think of it that way, and thank God you've got a good instructor.
:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 26, 2002)

I've got in between two and twenty hours a week fairly consistantly for 13 years (normally, not counting a few two-three week vacations and about three months where I got kinda burned out because of various circumstances).   There were several years where I didn't have an instructor, however, I did consistantly go over everything I had already learned, and I was teaching friends who'd been bugging me about it, so although I wasn't making a whole lot of progress during those times, I wasn't really backsliding either.  I've switched instructors a few times for various reasons, and all I'm going to say about that is that my current instructor is awesome and I'm learning a lot, and I don't care how long it takes me to get to black belt, because when I do get there, there will be no doubt in my mind whether or not I've earned it, and that's what's important.

-N-


~~~~~~~~~~


----------



## KennethKu (Oct 26, 2002)

There is a TKD instructor in my city.  This guy is no scammer. He is a professor at the University here.  He made the statement that some one who is reasonably physically adapated, can be trained and ready to past the black belt test in 6 months.  Not that they would do it that way. But his statement is an interesting revelation.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *I don't care how long it takes me to get to black belt, because when I do get there, there will be no doubt in my mind whether or not I've earned it, and that's what's important.
> 
> ...



That's exactly the way it should be as well.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 27, 2002)

I was born a black belt.

It just took me some time to refine my technique.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

I think alot of it has to do with your system as well. Some systems put great infasis on beign a black belt, while others do not even use belts at all. In my system you can test all the say to black 2 whenever you want, provided you can handle the requirments. Most people cannot until they are older, but some do. Now that said, young kids have to start over when entering the 12 year old class regardless of their "ranking". In systems that use no belts, the power of the technique is not the issue, it is the technique itself. Its just different worlds when you get into different systems.

JMO

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Oct 27, 2002)

even if a system puts a lot of emphasis on getting a black belt, they need to put even more emphasis on getting the knowledge that a black belt is supposed to signify.


-N-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *even if a system puts a lot of emphasis on getting a black belt, they need to put even more emphasis on getting the knowledge that a black belt is supposed to signify.
> 
> ...



Just so that we are on the same page, are we talking about the knowledge of when to use training, how to walk or run away from a siuation, that type of knowledge, or does it also encompas things like history of the system, terms of the system, things like that ?

7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2002)

I vote for all of the above.  A black belt should have the knowledge to know when to walk away and when to fight and the ability to do so.  He/she should also know the history of his/her system and perhaps much more.
Shadow


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *I vote for all of the above.  A black belt should have the knowledge to know when to walk away and when to fight and the ability to do so.  He/she should also know the history of his/her system and perhaps much more.
> Shadow *



OK just to play devils advocate, does knowing terms and history of your system really increase your skill level or your respect? I mean you could not know what anything is called but have a tremendous skill level and technique, right? What does the knowledge present that makes you a candidate for BB rather than strict skill level and technique? I'm not saying I'm against it, just asking, so please no one get all pissed off, just starting some discussion.


7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2002)

NP
 NO knowing the history will not increas a persons ability to protect themslefs. But if that same person is asked a question about  where there knowledge comes from they should have some idea otherwise they will "seem" to come from a self made system, or it wil appear that the school only belives in fighting not in anything else.
 Do they need to know the whole history. Maybe not but enough to sound intellegent and knowledgeable.  Some systems have a verrrrrry long history  some a much shorter one.
 The skill of a person dose not make him/her a Black belt  in and by itslef IMHO


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *NP
> NO knowing the history will not increas a persons ability to protect themslefs. But if that same person is asked a question about  where there knowledge comes from they should have some idea otherwise they will "seem" to come from a self made system, or it wil appear that the school only belives in fighting not in anything else.
> ...



Thats very true, and I like that about the skill level not making the person a black belt in and of itself. I guess its kind of like our Jr Sifu level. Even if you know the forms, can run the distance, can hold the stamces, you can't allways test for Jr Sifu. It takes a person who is very dedicated to the system as well.
So I guess your saying the belts are not used for showing rank by pure fighting skill in itself, but something alot more than "simple" technique?

7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2002)

There are people out there that have so much natural talent and ability that they could most likely learn and pass the physical requirements for most school in a short period of time. Some of these kids are unreal in what they can do.  
 But  are they mentaly  able to  accept the responsibility for the damage they might cause. Will the court hold them responsible if they harm or kill someone  or will the court go after the instructor? 
  I would not promote an adult to black belt if I thought his main objective was to strutt around the local bar and pick fights (not that that isnt good training I just dont agree with it) and I will not promote a child if I do not think they are responsible.  
 The knowledge of a system is PART of that system and it is important that it be passed on. How often do we here on the forum ask about a system we do dot know about.  If the person claims to be a instructor in the system and can not tell us about the system( I know what I think  ) what do you then think about that person  and his system


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *There are people out there that have so much natural talent and ability that they could most likely learn and pass the physical requirements for most school in a short period of time. Some of these kids are unreal in what they can do.
> But  are they mentaly  able to  accept the responsibility for the damage they might cause. Will the court hold them responsible if they harm or kill someone  or will the court go after the instructor?
> ...



Very good points, I am deffinatly an advocate of learning your systems history, and journey to present day. I am curious though, do you really think the courts could come after an instructor for teaching something someone used in a fight? I know it has happened in the past, but in todays world, you are rendering a service that has been payed for, can you presume to know what that perosn may use it as? Don't get me wrong, I am deffinatly an advocate of using your system correctly, and only teaching those that are responsible and respectful, but I'm just curious if it actually could come back to you legally, we know it would morally.

7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2002)

I think they call it careless indefference.  Simply meaning you did something without any thought as to what might result from it.
  Yes I think the courts can hold an instructor responsible if he/she teaches killing or joint manipulation/dislocation, or instructs students to stomp someone when they are down.  The student is a child and doing what they where told to do, by the instructor, just another reason for not giveing Black belts out to childern.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *I think they call it careless indefference.  Simply meaning you did something without any thought as to what might result from it.
> Yes I think the courts can hold an instructor responsible if he/she teaches killing or joint manipulation/dislocation, or instructs students to stomp someone when they are down.  The student is a child and doing what they where told to do, by the instructor, just another reason for not giveing Black belts out to childern. *



Yes but what about an adult student? I think the knowledge of when to use force is left to the person involved in the altercation, no? I mean, we don't hold gun retailers responsable for shooting deaths in adults. We do in children, or the adult that purchased the gun, most times, but in adults isn't it a different story? 

7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Oct 27, 2002)

Agreed, adults are judged on their actions because they are adults. I'm not sure if anyone has put an instructor on trail for what they teach adults unless the instructor advocated violence in the streets and/or gang use of the skills.
 An adult with mental handicaps might be a different story in court when it had to be determined if they should have been shown certian techniques.  Darn glad I have never had to sit on a jury  in a martial arts case.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> 
> *Agreed, adults are judged on their actions because they are adults. I'm not sure if anyone has put an instructor on trail for what they teach adults unless the instructor advocated violence in the streets and/or gang use of the skills.
> An adult with mental handicaps might be a different story in court when it had to be determined if they should have been shown certian techniques.  Darn glad I have never had to sit on a jury  in a martial arts case. *



Wow, yes that would be difficult! Thanks for your opinions, I'm glad we could discuss that like adults.

7sm


----------



## DireWolf (Oct 29, 2002)

Children and black belts are like children and pokemon toys.  Every kid wants one, and there is always someone willing to sell it to them.  I may make a few enemies here (oh well :shrug: ) but I believe that the rank of black belt is so diluted that it is almost worthless.  I like to look to the history for this...funny how in Japan the black belt could take years of full time (& I mean *live in* full time) training but you can get one over here in a couple of years of casual training.  

I think it is a joke and a bad taste one at that.  It is sad to see the rank cheapened.  How many of the traditional masters had 10 year old black belts?  

Please pardon the rant.  I just feel strongly about this.  I think a black belt should be awarded on the basis of years of dedication and maturity in the eyes of the master.  To grade it on how many forms you can perform (let's face it, how many forms can you MASTER in two years?) is crass commercialism.  I know a guy who has been practising Wing Chun for 20 years and is still finding new applications for the Sil Lum Tao (1st form).

But the world is the way it is...


----------



## GouRonin (Oct 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DireWolf _
> *I like to look to the history for this...funny how in Japan the black belt could take years of full time (& I mean live in full time) training but you can get one over here in a couple of years of casual training.  *



Funny, as I understand it you can get a BB in your first year university over there. In a year. The idea though that when you get it then you REALLY have to start studying hard as you've decided to become a student.

But I could be wrong.


----------



## Shinzu (Oct 30, 2002)

i agree with u direwolf.  years ago people used to say..."WOW"!!... now they say.."Yeah, i know 50 people that are black belts also".

sad but true.  it does not mean the same as it used to.  but for those that put the time, dedication, and effort into it... they know it is truly well deserved.


----------



## Bujingodai (Oct 30, 2002)

In our system. Kids class goes til 13. Kids are eligable for 3 belts yellow orange and green. At 13 they re evaluate, that may put them at an adult orange. No one under 16 and an old 16 may get it. Too much is expected of it for an immature teen.


----------



## 7starmantis (Oct 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> 
> *i agree with u direwolf.  years ago people used to say..."WOW"!!... now they say.."Yeah, i know 50 people that are black belts also".
> 
> sad but true.  it does not mean the same as it used to.  but for those that put the time, dedication, and effort into it... they know it is truly well deserved. *



But should your ranking or belt in a system invoke people to say "wow"? I mean isn't the knowledge you learn in MA for yourself not for others to see? I'm just thinking, alot of people use their belt or ranking as a means of saying, "I'm better than you", or "Look at me, I'm a black belt". Isn't that self defeating ?

7sm


----------



## DireWolf (Nov 3, 2002)

I think what Shinzu is saying is that the black belt was once something treated with respect.  The wearer didn't go out and say "Hey everyone!!! I'm a black belt!  How cool am I?".  Nowadays everyone knows somebody who knows the absolute rudiments of a martial art and has a black belt (and couldn't win a fight if their life depened on it) and this has cheapened it.  Once a black belt was symbolic of years of dedication and sacrifice.  Now it's more symbolic of a hobby or a money grab.



> I mean isn't the knowledge you learn in MA for yourself not for others to see?



I don't think so always.  A professional soccer player doesn't hide the fact that he plays soccer.  Why should I hide the fact that I do martial arts?  I understand the humility one gains through years of MA study, but I think that to hide or not speak about one's passion is deceiving.  My friends all know I love MA.  Some of them have even been influenced enough that they too have started down the path and are reaping the rewards that come from disciplined study.  I think there is a case for both sides.

Peace
:yinyang:
DW


----------



## rmcrobertson (Nov 3, 2002)

I happen to know an eleven-year-old who's a black belt. He started when he was four; before he got his belt, he studied for six years. Two private classes, and at least one group class--for the last three years, two--a week. I might add he worked hard. When he tested for black, he did so with adults. The test lasted over two hours, during which he sat dead quiet until it was his turn. Was he perfect? No. Neither were the adults. Tell me: why isn't this good enough for you?

Since he got his belt, he trains even harder. He helps teach the younger kids. I have never seen him, no matter how stressed or tried or cranky, lose his temper. I have never seen him be unkind to someone, which is more than I can say of me. Tell me: why isn't this good enough for you?

Y'all are running on a fantasy of perfection and maturity in adults that is very far from the truth. No, this kid can't beat up every adult. (Though ask me, sometime, why his Dad has a buddy everybody now calls, "Speedbag.") Neither can I. Among other horrors, I train with Clyde. Is he a better martial artists? yes. can he beat me up? yes. Will this always be true? yes. Is he the only one of whom I might say this? No. 

I quite agree with the notion that kids, on the whole, get promoted too damn fast. I agree that their yuppie damn parents demand this, for the same messed-up reasons that their yuppie damn parents foul up kids' soccer, and baseball, and football games. 

However: is this true of every kid? No. My other comment is that this argument is running off a flawed notion of perfection in adults, who more often fail to be real martial artists than kids do. 

Oh, incidentally--this is not the only kid I know who deserves his belt. 

Thanks.


----------



## GouRonin (Nov 3, 2002)

Someone once said that _"When a kitten is cornered he will fight like a tiger."_

But he'll still fight with the knowledge and power of a kitten.

I say 18. I don't care if you don't like it. I don't recognize kids under 18 as black belts. Maybe Junior Black belts. But that's it.


----------



## Damian Mavis (Nov 4, 2002)

Ya but with that mentality then you must agree that you wouldnt recognise 80% of adults black belts as black belts either.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## GouRonin (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> *Ya but with that mentality then you must agree that you wouldnt recognise 80% of adults black belts as black belts either.
> *



I agree. I don't recognize at least 50% of adult black belts. But they're at least 80% more towards being a black belt than kids are.


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 4, 2002)

I don't know, just because you or I, or anyone doesn't recognize a kid as a black belt doesn't mean they haven't worked just as hard to get to that level as we have. I know a 12 year old kid who just tested for brown level 2 which is just below black, and he is more mature and respectful than 95% of adults I deal with on a daily basis! I think if a younger kid sticks with it for that many years and tests hard with the adults he/she deserves it just as much as the other adults who passed the test as well.

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 4, 2002)

but is he following the adult curriculum, or is he using a pared down children's version?

if he's not learning all the material, he shouldn't be a regular black belt.  

if he is learning all the material as an adult black belt, and he is held to the same expectations as an adult testing for that rank would be, then he is the exception, and probably deserves his belt.  I met a 14 year old 2nd degree black belt who more than deserved her rank. she had the material and the mental focus and the ability to make it work, but she is an exception.


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *but is he following the adult curriculum, or is he using a pared down children's version?
> 
> ...



Yes I agree, they should have the same material as the adults, that is what we do in our school, so I can't speak for others. Yes there are kids who do not deserve theri belts, and adults alike, but those that truly work for it should have it I believe.

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 4, 2002)

you said "those that truly work for it"

I've seen adults who come in, work their tails off, and just plain can't do it.  Would you give these folks belts?

I believe a better phrase would be "those that truly master the requirements"

is that what you meant?

just wanting clarification.

respectfully, 

Nightingale


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *you said "those that truly work for it"
> 
> ...



You know, people have said that before, they have seen people who work their tales off and never "get it". I guess no they would not be able to pass the test so they would not get a belt, but I have a hard time believing that someone could work seriously, with enough time and not begin to master the moves and forms, or what have you. Even if it takes a year for the first belt, they are learning it and are working for it. That is my thoughts on it, thats why I said it that way. 
Yes the test includes certain techniques that must be mastered to pass the test, but simply learning the moves is not mastering the techniques either, correct ?

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 4, 2002)

exactly... just learning the moves is not enough.

you have to understand the ideas that go with the moves.

And yes, I have seen some adults come in for over a year... they are either just clutzes, uncoordinated, or have lousy memories, but it took them like a year and a half to just learn short form 1 (beginner kenpo form with only like 8 stance changes...step back/block, step back/block, step left/block, step back/block, etc...)  

what I was asking, is do you give these folks a belt, because they're there and try so hard, or do you make them wait until they really know their stuff, with the possibility that they might get discouraged?

Personally, I'd make them wait, and if they really needed some kind of validation, I'd stick a yellow tab on their white belt to indicate when they knew half their material for their next belt.  Ultimately, its up to the individual instructor, though.

-N-


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *
> what I was asking, is do you give these folks a belt, because they're there and try so hard, or do you make them wait until they really know their stuff, with the possibility that they might get discouraged?
> ...



Well, in my system there is really no belts, but we have a level system at my school. Your first test is the white level though. Since each level has specific forms you must know and perform as well as the application for them, certain time in horse stance, running, ect, then no, if they could not complete all the material in the tests, then they would not pass the test and "level up". People do get discouraged, but in most CMA there are no belts so we try and explain to our students that it is all about them and taking it in their time. I would most likely not encourage someone to test if they haven't gotten the material since its pretty harsh to fail a test, especially a white level. 
I guess there is a balance to keep people interested and to maintain your teaching style, but in a system with no belts, its different. We don't wear sashes or anything in class that would show our "rank". The only thing I have to show mine is a certificate for each level, and the word of my Sifu as to how long I've been studying. 

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 4, 2002)

it is a tough balance... you have to make people feel like they're accomplishing something because you don't want them to get discouraged and quit, because they're helping you pay your morgage, but you don't want to put your name and reputation on the line by giving them a belt they didn't earn... its  a tough call.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Nov 4, 2002)

Since I suspect I've already made myself very clear on this matter, I'll forego saying more than this: a) judge on a case-by-case basis, eh? b) not all black belts are, or have to be, the same; c) if being able to beat anybody up were the criteria, there's hardly anybody on this forum who deserves their belt, I suspect, because I suspect there's hardly anybody on this forum who could beat up a professional fighter as big as, say, Dolph Lundgren.

Thanks.


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> 
> *Since I suspect I've already made myself very clear on this matter, I'll forego saying more than this: a) judge on a case-by-case basis, eh? b) not all black belts are, or have to be, the same; c) if being able to beat anybody up were the criteria, there's hardly anybody on this forum who deserves their belt, I suspect, because I suspect there's hardly anybody on this forum who could beat up a professional fighter as big as, say, Dolph Lundgren.
> 
> Thanks. *



Dolph Lundgren is a fighter? :rofl: 

Sorry, couldn't resist

7sm


----------



## GouRonin (Nov 4, 2002)

I could.


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 5, 2002)

I have a question for those sho study a system that uses belts and there is an age limit on the black belt rank.
Is it that you cannot test until this said age, or is it that you cannot learn the material until said age? I mean is it possible that a person younger than the age to hold black belt could possibly know the material just not allowed to test for black belt?

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 5, 2002)

A lot of schools that have an age limit on black belt (usually 16) have junior ranks...  

Most kids don't start til seven or so...  you figure it takes about four years for them to get their junior black, so now they're eleven, they join the adult classes at twelve, and another four to even be remotely ready to test for adult black, so they're now sixteen and at the age requirement.

That's how I've seen it work... the system is arranged so that people don't usually get ready to test for black before the age requirement... and if they are truly ready, they are evaluated on a case by case basis.


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 5, 2002)

So Jr Black belt would not be the same material as in Adult Black Belt then? Is it less aggresive material or just more basic or what? Or is the main difference between a Jr BB and a BB basicaly more mental and maturity realted ?

7sm


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 5, 2002)

in the schools I've seen, Jr black has 12 techiques per belt, and not as many forms... they try to give the kids techniques that will work for kids, stuff like moves off grabs and things like that.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Nov 5, 2002)

From my experience the techniques are cut down. Ex. Dance of Death in our school is only taught up to the elbow strike. That just happens to be one that came to mind. Some of the others if there's only 3 to 4 moves then teach them the whole thing. The entire curriculum is cut in half. Instead of having 150 they have something like 70 - 80. They don't have to learn as many forms or sets. The basics yes they do have to learn all of those. Once achieving jr. bb with their white stripe then they start to fill in the tech., forms, sets. After learning the entire curriculum required for adult black they need to be evaluated for recommendation to test for it.


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 5, 2002)

um...yeah!...that!  That's what I was trying to say! you just said it better!


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 5, 2002)

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. I don't see a problem with it, thanks for the explination both of you.


7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 5, 2002)

In My school and the whole system to which I belong we have an age requirement  (16 at this time)  Some of the techniques are not taught till after that age .  Most of the time it take 8 - 12 years  to get to instructor (black belt) in the system so someone would have to start verry young to push the age limits anyway.


----------



## CraneWings (Jan 26, 2003)

In our style, we don't believe in promoting junior black belts.  You have to be 16 to become a black belt.  Because our children classes do not learn the same criteria or as much to the extent that the adults do.  I am not doubting that a child can be good, but he better be damn good to be a black belt at 10.


----------



## Jas (Feb 6, 2003)

In my NihonGoshin Aikido school it is impossible for a kid to get a blackbelt, when a kid meets all the requirments in the kids classes he/she goes into adult classes with a yellow belt rank


----------



## Daniel (Feb 9, 2003)

In my current school they have junior black belts for the younger kids. They have a pared down list of what they need to do but they can achieve that by 12 or so.

After that they have to go back and learn everything they missed for each rank. For example they learn all the adult requirements for orange belt then they test for their junior black belt with an orange stripe.

By the time they have gone through all the ranks it takes a few years, which brings them to our current requirements for adult black belt of 16 years old, then they are allowed to test again and be a full adult black belt.


----------



## J-kid (Feb 9, 2003)

10 yr old black belt?
ROFL


----------



## kenposikh (Sep 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Gotta agree. Personally I would make 18 a requirement. Don't care if anyone else likes it either.
> *



Hey Gou,

If you read my post at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163913#post163913

Then you will see this guy spent 10 years in the art with a minimum of 4 months between junior gradings learning basics and sets, forms from a higher level like 3rd kyu brown upwards.

We do have a minimum age requirement however unless they started at the age of 1 it is pretty much impossible for them to get to black belt before they are 15 at least.


----------



## drunken mistress (Feb 6, 2004)

Where I train we are in a mixed group. The kids train in exactly the same way as adults. Our first sensei made them take tabs between belts so they would take 6 months at least for a belt when an adult could do it in half the time. I wasn´t always sure it was fair to the kids if they were really talented. I have met one or two black belt kids and they were very fast in reactions although they did not have full adult strength.
There are lots of kids claiming to be black belts of course. I have to persuade my yellow belt son that most are liars unless they started at the age of one.


----------



## Gary Crawford (Feb 6, 2004)

I earned mine when I was almost 14,(back in the stone age)but it didn't really mean that much to me especially since there was a 16 yr old purple belt who was very competitive with me sparring(he was Good!).That taught me that rank was only a level of completed curiculum,individual ability means a lot more than rank!


----------



## Ceicei (Feb 7, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *but is he following the adult curriculum, or is he using a pared down children's version?
> 
> if he's not learning all the material, he shouldn't be a regular black belt.  *



At my school, when a kid earns a black belt, it is just that:  a *junior* black belt.  Once they earn the jr bb, they then have to go through all the adult curriculum (yellow thru 1st brown) before they get the adult black belt.   That's going to take several additional years.  They still get to keep their black belts (with a stripe down the middle of the length of the belt) but have colored tips.

However, if a kid turns 14 (I think, or maybe its 16?) regardless of rank, they are transitioned out of the jr curriculum to the adult curriculum.

- Ceicei


----------



## CanuckMA (Feb 9, 2004)

My school gives under 16 a red belt. At 16 they can re-test for shodan.


----------



## 8253 (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *I absolutely despise the practice of granting children high-level rank.  You ought not be able to become a blackbelt until you're at least of legal age. *



This is definately agreeable, children should not have to worry about the responsibility of the knowledge of some of the deadlier techniques of any Art.

However a Childrens class with a different curriculum that teaches the basics such as honor, respect, humility, basic movements and has its own ranks is an excellent idea.  The reason I believe this is that I have seen a lot of children who get into Martial Arts go to school or hang out with thier friends and have to show them something that could be dangerous, just because they know how to do that and the other children dont.  With a higher rank comes a greater responsibility to ones self and others.


----------

