# Simultaneous strikes



## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.

Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 22, 2018)

If you're wielding two weapons at once (such as knives, sticks, or swords) then it is possible (though usually not tactically ideal) to land two effective shots simultaneously.

Unarmed? Nah. You can do it, but the combined effect of the two strikes will almost always be significantly less than that of a single strike done correctly.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 22, 2018)

Well in Muay Thai we have a lot of techniques that do have Simultaneous Strikes and Combos, However not in a Kata but in actual live Sparring. For Example we have one move where you Put the Palm of your hand or Glove into your opponents face and you can throw a Knee, Liver Shot or even a Elbow Strike.

Muay Thai combos are a little more Simple compared to majority of the Striking Arts.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Well in Muay Thai we have a lot of techniques that do have Simultaneous Strikes and Combos, However not in a Kata but in actual live Sparring. For Example we have one move where you Put the Palm of your hand or Glove into your opponents face and you can throw a Knee, Liver Shot or even a Elbow Strike.
> 
> Muay Thai combos are a little more Simple compared to majority of the Striking Arts.



Is it that the palm and knee strike simultaneously?  Or that you palm strike, and then while you hold their head you strike with the knee or the other elbow?


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> Is it that the palm and knee strike simultaneously?  Or that you palm strike, and then while you hold their head you strike with the knee or the other elbow?


Palm Strike and Knee simultaneously. Its Technically a Knee and Punch and Knee and Elbow, Or Punch and Elbow. However that is when were are not in the Clinch.

In the Clinch that is a different Story.  Here are some Pic Examples

Lethwei - Wikipedia


Lethwei - Wikipedia

Even though it say Lethwei, Really Lethwei and Muay Thai are practically similar arts just Lethwei has Headbutts, As Muay Thai does not Use the Headbutts, But Muay Boran does.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

GreatSayiaman said:


> Palm Strike and Knee simultaneously. Its Technically a Knee and Punch and Knee and Elbow, Or Punch and Elbow. However that is when were are not in the Clinch.
> 
> In the Clinch that is a different Story.  Here are some Pic Examples
> 
> ...



In those examples it seems only one is hitting.  With the palm and the knee, the palm is super effective and the knee appears to barely make contact.  With the elbow and knee, the elbow appears to completely whiff while the knee makes contact.


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## wab25 (Jun 22, 2018)

Can you post some examples of the kata versions you are asking about? (not really interested in the movie-fu side of it)


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2018)

ordinarily i am not a big fan of simultaneous striking. however i do have a move in kata where it looks like your doing a palm to the face and one to the groin.  the bunkai that i have for that however is not a strike as such but a close in shove which includes the shoulder.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> In those examples it seems only one is hitting.  With the palm and the knee, the palm is super effective and the knee appears to barely make contact.  With the elbow and knee, the elbow appears to completely whiff while the knee makes contact.


When actually drilling and performing the technique it does hit, The Punch or Palm stuns or puts the hand in their face and then you strike with the knee. Elbow is meant to whiff and try to get a cut on your opponent and then the knee does strike and stop the opponent from closing the distance with a clinch. 

Sure the picture does not show much, But is done together in most matches


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.
> 
> Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?


The answer is a BIG YES.  I have used them in my system.  The double punch works.  I've used that in free sparring and out of all of the strikes that are easy to land, the double punch is the easiest one.  Unfortunately, the practical use of it decreased with each attempt or successful blow.   If I use it in sparring then I'll use it maybe 2 in the same day and then I would wait months before I used it in sparring classes again.  I actually have video (not great video) of me using in free sparring.  The beginner form in my system uses a horizontal double simultaneous punch 3 times.  I haven't used that one in a free sparring situation yet.   I'm hesitant in using it because I think I may hurt my sparring partner with it.  I would feel more comfortable in using it, if I had more control with it.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The answer is a BIG YES.  I have used them in my system.  The double punch works.  I've used that in free sparring and out of all of the strikes that are easy to land, the double punch is the easiest one.  Unfortunately, the practical use of it decreased with each attempt or successful blow.   If I use it in sparring then I'll use it maybe 2 in the same day and then I would wait months before I used it in sparring classes again.  I actually have video (not great video) of me using in free sparring.  The beginner form in my system uses a horizontal double simultaneous punch 3 times.  I haven't used that one in a free sparring situation yet.   I'm hesitant in using it because I think I may hurt my sparring partner with it.  I would feel more comfortable in using it, if I had more control with it.



So what is the advantage you find of using a double strike instead of a single strike?

As @Tony Dismukes said, a single strike will usually be more effective because you're concentrating your energy into that one punch.



GreatSayiaman said:


> The Punch or Palm stuns or puts the hand in their face and then you strike with the knee



That's not simultaneous if it's one strike hits and stuns so the next strike is easier to land.  That's just a combination.


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## GreatSayiaman (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> So what is the advantage you find of using a double strike instead of a single strike?
> 
> As @Tony Dismukes said, a single strike will usually be more effective because you're concentrating your energy into that one punch.
> 
> ...


No Problem I thought  it was Simultaneous. It just feels like it is when its done in Drilling and Sparring, Along with seeing my Kru and the pros in Class do it.


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## marques (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.
> 
> Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?


Maybe you can get your opponents confused, so _then_ you can KO them. 

Sometimes I show 2 strikes, but only one lands, the other retracts in the last instant. Or I pull them against my knees. Never seen 2 strikes at once.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> So what is the advantage you find of using a double strike instead of a single strike?


Biggest advantage is that most people don't know what to do with it when it comes.  On a biological level I think it gives the brain too much to process all at once.  You don't know if you block high or low, or just move backwards.   It's a sneaky punch and it never looks like a punch when you start the motion.  Every double punch, I've done, I had to pull back on the power and not connect because my opponent was that open.  From my end it looks like my opponent freezes for about a second and that's more than enough time to get the punch in.

The other advantage of this punch is that one punch will always be in the opponent's blind spot.  You will never see both of them at the same time when it's done correctly and at the correct distance.

The downside is that the more you use it, the less effective it because because your opponent will learn how to recognize the punch.   In practice it looks like this.  But in application it doesn't extend this far and the punch occurs in closer range.  Jabbing range is too far for me when I'm doing this technique.  The horizontal punch happens in close range and it travels through blind spots as well.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

marques said:


> Never seen 2 strikes at once.


Looks like I can make a video that people would be interested in.  I'll have to use it against a heavy bag, just to show there's some real power behind the strike.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Looks like I can make a video that people would be interested in.  I'll have to use it against a heavy bag, just to show there's some real power behind the strike.



That looks similar to what we do, except in our kata we're not leaning our upper body into it.  I would like to see this compared to a single punch in a video, if you could.  And/or some examples of it being used effectively in sparring!


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## Buka (Jun 22, 2018)

A friend of mine call double strikes a Shetland Pony technique. _Technically_ it's a horse.


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## Danny T (Jun 22, 2018)

In the training I have, when used the double fist or palm strikes are more for creating space or are utilized as a part of a crashing entry. In form it can be either hand or both.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

Danny T said:


> In the training I have, when used the double fist or palm strikes are more for creating space or are utilized as a part of a crashing entry. In form it can be either hand or both.



What is a crashing entry?

Why are they used for creating space?

(I'm not trying to be annoyingly picky, I just want to fully understand).


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## dvcochran (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.
> 
> Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?


I think two of the WTF BB forms have double moves. One has a "mountain block" where you make a pushing motion. The other is a double punch. One of the lower Palgwe's have a double punch from a back stance which I have never understood. I have a hard time picturing how to make much power with a double hand and foot strike. Possibly crossing right with left would make decent power. Maybe more as a distraction to set up your next move.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time ...


It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring. Either my kick can land on my opponent's body, but my fist is too far, or my fist can land on my opponent's body but my leg is not fully extended yet.

IMO, this kind of training is for body coordination, flexibility, and balance.


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## pdg (Jun 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I think two of the WTF BB forms have double moves. One has a "mountain block" where you make a pushing motion. The other is a double punch. One of the lower Palgwe's have a double punch from a back stance which I have never understood. I have a hard time picturing how to make much power with a double hand and foot strike. Possibly crossing right with left would make decent power. Maybe more as a distraction to set up your next move.



In addition to that, the Chang Hon patterns contain many double moves.

Various double punches, strikes, blocks and kicks - either to the same direction or to different directions.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> That looks similar to what we do, except in our kata we're not leaning our upper body into it.  I would like to see this compared to a single punch in a video, if you could.  And/or some examples of it being used effectively in sparring!


I only have an old video where you can't see it well.  This is a screen shot of a video of a sparring session.  I'm short of sparring partners so I'm not sure if I can get a recent video of me using it in sparring.

This was my opponents first time ever experiencing this punch.  I'm the one in the black long pants.  I have red gloves on and you can  see that I have one glove under his guard and one slipping through the top.  I threw this punch in a way that he wouldn't get hit but he would understand that he could have gotten hit, if I wanted to him him with it.





These pictures are out of order on purpose.  We can call the top picture the Mid-Stage of the punch after the punch reached it's target.  The picture below is when the punch was heading to it's target.  The red glove that's in front of my face is my glove not his.   I launched this attack when he had his guard down.  Take note of the proximity of my foot. As you can see the distance is very close.




This is the last phase where I'm beginning my recovery.  Normally with this punch, my hands would have already been back to guard position.  But I keep them extended just to make a statement and to let him know that I had him.  Had I really tried to make contact I would have easily busted his face.  This punch is more like a crashing punch and not a snapping punch.  Think of someone ramming a staff into the body vs jabbing(poking) a staff at the body.




We see this punch done in other martial arts systems and the one thing that they have in common is that this punch doesn't snap back like a jab, they just leave it out there like a pose.  The reason why is because you ram this punch in.  Even if they have a guard up, you ram your strike to its target.  You can pick one hand to deliver the most power or you can deliver equal power.  There's no solid rule.  Sometimes the defender will over commit and leave an opening that shows very early during the strike, which gives you and opportunity to switch the hand that delivers the power, or even convert it into and upper cut.

In the video I do quite a bit of posing.  He got the message because in the beginning of the video he starts talking trash, after the double punch he gets quiet and begins to focus more.  Fast forward a few years, the same guy that I was sparring with used the same technique against a taller student and ended up hurting the student to the point where they had to pause sparring and switch people out.  He didn't understand the force that the punch had back then.  Now he's like me and is very reserved with the punch so not to hit his sparring partner in the face.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring. Either my kick can land on my opponent's body, but my fist is too far, or my fist can land on my opponent's body but my leg is not fully extended yet.
> 
> IMO, this kind of training is for body coordination, flexibility, and balance.


For this kind of thing where one is low and the other is high, it can overload the body’s flinch response, as Jowga wolf mentioned.

When a strike comes at the groin, the natural response is to pull the hips back.  When a shot comes at the face, the natural response is to pull the face back.  You cannot do both simultaneously.  This can override your automatic response and make you freeze for a moment.  Then one or the other lands, probably the kick because the leg is longer, probably both will not land.

I agree with Tony though.  A single strike probably has more solid body mechanics behind it and will likely be more effective.  But the double strike can open the door. 

After the double strike shown above, step down and forward with the right foot and drive a good solid right punch into him, with solid body mechanics.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It exists in the long fist system a lot. I have trained those moves all my life but have never be able to apply it in sparring.


Recently discovered (like 2 days ago while training) that the application of this technique is not linear as we practice in the form.  It works, but just not as it is practiced in the form.  It also trains body coordination, flexibility, and balance, but the application is actually angular.  It's also done at the end of a technique and not as technique that starts off the striking.


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Recently discovered (like 2 days ago while training) that the application of this technique is not linear as we practice in the form.  It works, but just not as it is practiced in the form.  It also trains body coordination, flexibility, and balance, but the application is actually angular.  It's also done at the end of a technique and not as technique that starts off the striking.



Can you expand on this a little bit?  How are you defining "linear" and "angular" in this context, and how is it the end of the technique instead of the start?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> After the double strike shown above, step down and forward with the right foot and drive a good solid right punch into him, with solid body mechanics.


That's how the long fist combos were designed. The pattern that you have mentioned may repeat 1 time, 2 times, or even 3 times.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's how the long fist combos were designed. The pattern that you have mentioned may repeat 1 time, 2 times, or even 3 times.


Agreed.  I would remove the repetition, just make it punch/kick, step down punch.  That’s just me, though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> the application of this technique is not linear as we practice in the form.


By adding a hand pulling, the short distance knee kick and face punch can work well.


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## Martial D (Jun 22, 2018)

Boxing the ears is legit


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## skribs (Jun 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Boxing the ears is legit



True, but that's a little bit of a different case, as the two hands work together in that case.  If you box one ear, the head bounces the other way and the percussive effect on the eardrum is lessened (at least, I believe that's what would happen).  Boxing both ears together keeps the head from bouncing away from either hand.

That's different than say punching to the nose with one hand and the solar plexus with another hand; or from punching to the head and kicking to the ground simultaneously.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> Can you expand on this a little bit?  How are you defining "linear" and "angular" in this context, and how is it the end of the technique instead of the start?


 When I  teach linear and angular concepts, you have to think of it as relation to your opponent.   A linear attack is one where you move forward to attack your opponent.  Think of a line drawn on the ground from you and your opponent, where both of you are facing each other.  A linear attack is one that occurs on this line.  An angular attack occurs off the line.  Certain techniques will only make sense and work if you look at it from the perspective of an angled attack.  

The picture below shows linear concept on the left and angular concept on the right.  The kick that Kung Fu Wang is talking about is always practiced in forms from a linear perspective and because of this we always think of it as a kick to the groin.  Then when we try to pull it off in sparring, it becomes really difficult to do.  The reason why is because in practice we use the linear perspective.  In real world application we use the angular perspective. (Keep in mind this is only for the kick and simultaneous punch and strike.






Here the reality of fighting,  people rarely stay on that center line.  The second reality is that martial arts forms and katas are full of techniques.  Some of the techniques are actual fighting combos, some are single strikes, some are combinations that work better at the beginning for a combination attack, and others work better at the end of your combination attack.  Some are appear to be simultaneous attack that cause your opponent's mind to "Glitch" and that gives you more than enough time to land the strike successfully.  There's just tons of things that you have to dig deep down in order to understand, it will take time and a lot of thinking, but eventually things will make sense.  But back to the kick and punch.

If I look at the kick and punch from a linear perspective then my kick will be longer than my punch. Looking at the picture above, if the brown head guy kicks and punches the blue guy then his kick will be longer than his punch.    However, this is not the case with the angular perspective.  If the brown head guy punches with his left arm (arm closest to blue's arm) then his arm will be able to reach blues face at the same time that the kick reaches the body.  

To understand techniques at the beginning and ending of combinations, you'll have to understand the effect that your technique has on a person.  The rule is simple.
If it's too difficult to use the technique at the beginning of an attack then it means that it probably comes in the middle or the end of a technique.   Tai chi has  a good technique that can be used to palm strike and kick at the same time.

I've been hit with this one a few times from a classmate that I used to train with. I got hit in the face and kicked in the leg at the same time and my brain didn't know which part of my body to register pain first. The best way to put it is that you get punched in your face, but your leg feels the pain.  It's a weird feeling.  In application the kick isn't this high and it flies under the field of vision.  So your brain registers the hand visually and doesn't understand nor see that the kick is coming in.  So you feel the impact of the face strike but you get kicked where you were totally defenseless.  I don't practice this at all, I just know it works because I got nailed with it a couple of times.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> the simultaneous strike


The double punches can be considered as "separate hands" that you separate your opponent's arms away from his head.

I'll call this double punches as "Chinese zombie's arms" strategy. It has great value if you want to wrap your opponent's punching arms and establish a clinch.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's how the long fist combos were designed. The pattern that you have mentioned may repeat 1 time, 2 times, or even 3 times.


Great video.  If you notice a jab initially comes first before the simultaneous punch kick technique. In my discover and in the form it's the same way.  In every, form that I know where this kick exists there is always a technique before it.   It's always .. "Do something first then the (punch+kick)"  and not "just do the (punch+kick) first then something else.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> By adding a hand pulling, the short distance knee kick and face punch can work well.


Jow Ga has a similar technique in the form and it's always linear.  It's never off center.  But in application the only concept that makes sense is to be off center and attack from an angle. The technique will always fail from a linear application concept.  Most people don't fight using the techniques in their form.  Most of the time it's just theory without experimentation through sparring.


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## Martial D (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> True, but that's a little bit of a different case, as the two hands work together in that case.  If you box one ear, the head bounces the other way and the percussive effect on the eardrum is lessened (at least, I believe that's what would happen).  Boxing both ears together keeps the head from bouncing away from either hand.
> 
> That's different than say punching to the nose with one hand and the solar plexus with another hand; or from punching to the head and kicking to the ground simultaneously.



True, but they are simultaneous strikes that are effective.


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## Anarax (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.
> 
> Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?



Simultaneous strikes have limited practicality for you can't generate a lot of power with them and they leave you exposed. However, there are some situations where they could be useful. If you are grabbed by the lapels from a front facing opponent simultaneous strikes to the ears or forearms wouldn't be a horrible idea. You must break the grab before you can throw punches with any significant power. Granted I'm not expecting either techniques to break the grab, but it's more of a "softening" technique to then utilize another technique(lock, throw, etc) afterwards.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Simultaneous strikes have limited practicality for you can't generate a lot of power with them and they leave you exposed.


While I don't agree with you.
Spock does


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## Danny T (Jun 22, 2018)

skribs said:


> What is a crashing entry?


Think clinching, 50/50 position, double under or over hooks, Double leg takedown



skribs said:


> Why are they used for creating space?


Because one may want or need to create distance or space...maybe in order to knee or kick. One maybe defending the above clinch (bear hug). Or some other reason.



skribs said:


> (I'm not trying to be annoyingly picky, I just want to fully understand).


It's all good. When studying forms and possible applications one should look at multiple ranges. With weapons, empty hand, long range, close range, standing, kneeing and others. Is the opponent in front, to the side, or even at your back. Can it be a throw, a takedown, or something else.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 22, 2018)

Danny T said:


> It's all good. When studying forms and possible applications one should look at multiple ranges. With weapons, empty hand, long range, close range, standing, kneeing and others. Is the opponent in front, to the side, or even at your back. Can it be a throw, a takedown, or something else.


I agree 100% with this.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 22, 2018)

Danny T said:


> defending the above clinch (bear hug).


Agree! to punch on your opponent's shoulders at the same time can stop his bear hug. Also it's good to stop your opponent's shooting toward to your leg/legs if you can punch back on both of his shoulders.


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## JR 137 (Jun 22, 2018)

We’ve got double punches in a few of our kata (these are Kyokushin versions of the kata, but we do them the same way)...

Gekisai Dai, the last 3 counts...





Yantsu; the first count is a double knife-hand followed by a double punch.  It’s quickly retracted, but it’s definitely there...





And my favorite kata, Saiha/Saifa.  Same double knife hand to double punch as Yantsu, only the double punch is held out...





I’ve never tried either version in sparring before, and we don’t do them in any partner drills.  I’ll try both versions of the double punch in sparring tomorrow and report back


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2018)

I have an arsenal of of troll sparring moves of which the scorpion punch is a part of.


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## marques (Jun 23, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Looks like I can make a video that people would be interested in.  I'll have to use it against a heavy bag, just to show there's some real power behind the strike.


I mean, never seen in competition or actual fight (including YouTube). I have seen in forms (and probably movies as well). But yeah, do that video.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 23, 2018)

marques said:


> I mean, never seen in competition or actual fight (including YouTube). I have seen in forms (and probably movies as well). But yeah, do that video.


Most strikers go with the basics.  Look how long it took the "Oblique Kick" to show up in competition and to this day we really don't see other's doing it.   As for street fights my guess is that the people who are skilled enough to do it rarely are in situations where they are forced to physically fight, and if they do fight, it's not being recorded by anyone.  I would definitely do the double punch that I do it in a street fight, easily.  Especially if I think there's a good chance someone may try to grab me by my upper torso or waist.  The punch makes those type of grabs really difficult to do.


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## dvcochran (Jun 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> In addition to that, the Chang Hon patterns contain many double moves.
> 
> Various double punches, strikes, blocks and kicks - either to the same direction or to different directions.


I feel most of the double blocks have sound application. As well, some of the double punches could work with the understanding they would have limited power. I have seen some double kicks work very well but they are quite advanced and require excellent flexibility to work very well.


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## zzj (Jun 23, 2018)




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## WaterGal (Jun 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I think two of the WTF BB forms have double moves. One has a "mountain block" where you make a pushing motion. The other is a double punch.



Keumgang? From what I learned, the "mountain block" is a sweep: pushing with the upraised forearm/fist and sweeping with the leg, with the other arm coming up to, like, provide counterbalance. Keumgang does have the physically difficult but impractical "Keumgang makki", which is basically a simultaneous high and low block while standing on one foot, which imitates the pose of an ancient Korean carving.


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## dvcochran (Jun 23, 2018)

zzj said:


>


Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?


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## dvcochran (Jun 23, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> Keumgang? From what I learned, the "mountain block" is a sweep: pushing with the upraised forearm/fist and sweeping with the leg, with the other arm coming up to, like, provide counterbalance. Keumgang does have the physically difficult but impractical "Keumgang makki", which is basically a simultaneous high and low block while standing on one foot, which imitates the pose of an ancient Korean carving.



Yes, I forgot about Keumgang's (Keumgang Mountain) blocks. I have never heard of a sweeping motion with the leg. It has always been explain as two high blocks or high outside blocks. I love the maki stance as it really resonates a persons experience or thoroughness to me. Sipjin has a two handed "pushing the rock" move that is solid if done correctly.


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## JR 137 (Jun 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> We’ve got double punches in a few of our kata (these are Kyokushin versions of the kata, but we do them the same way)...
> 
> Gekisai Dai, the last 3 counts...
> 
> ...


I hate to quote myself, but I’m reporting back that there’s nothing to report back.  None of the Saturday regulars that I had in mind were there today.  Instead, it was solely a group of kids who’ve just started transitioning to the adults class.  Whatever would’ve happened if I threw any double punches would’ve been worthless, so I didn’t throw any.  My sparring consisted of pretty much only hitting them when they made a big mistake.  They just started actually sparring, so I can’t hold that against them.  I let them land a bunch of stuff so they get the feel of actually hitting someone and so they actually hit right.  And it helps me condition a little bit.

At times I felt like Kramer dominating the dojo, although they are around 14 instead of 8...


----------



## zzj (Jun 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?



Chen style tai chi usually operates at a range closer than typical striking arts and involves control or grappling rather than using strikes to connect/engage. 

Look at 1:30 in the video below for an example of how this ‘double strike’ would be used. The ‘set up’ is in fact a controlling ‘roll back’ move, and In a situation when you are up close locking arms with your opponent, it would be natural to have a lower stance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Great power but who has time to get set in such a deep stance and prepare so long for a punch in a SD situation?


Agree! If power generation require that much compressing time, it won't be useful. But if you can hide your compressing in your set up, that will be excellent.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> I've seen in both kata and in kung fu movies the simultaneous strike or simultaneous combination.  It might be a jab and a front kick at the same time, or two punches at the same time.  Not a 1-2 combination, but both strikes impact the target at the same moment.
> 
> Is there a practical purpose for these moves, other than that they look cool in a form or they look good on film?




Yes. there is a practical purpose to them.

In Karate, and Tang Soo Do there is a perfect example. The simultaneous knife hand strike.

Shoshin Nagamine performs a "Kyobu morote shuto-uchi" (Chest double knife- hand strike). This strike is used to attack both of the opponent's collarbones or throat simultaneously.

This is found in a number of Kata, or Hyung. Kata Chinto is a good example. It is also in a number of Korean Ho sin sul.





When striking the throat.... this is your target:





Typically, most students are told this is a double shuto/soo do to the collarbones. While it is effective, it is not the actual target.

There is a considerable risk of serious injuries or even fatal accident if you strike the External carotid and jugular vein with a tremendous amount of force.

You dont want your half baked mid ranked students practicing lethal stuff... save it for your blackbelts.

The power isn't from a trunk rotation starting in the hips and rising up the spine from there. It is much more like doing butterflies when working dumbbells.

As the target areas are not well protected, and it doesn't take much to deliver a devastating blow...
it's more than enough. Add in the 2 for 1 nature of the attack... and its likely one of the strikes will land.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 24, 2018)

Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO.  And a lot more entertaining...


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO.  And a lot more entertaining...


Great. Absolutely great.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Here’s a better video of that target being hit IMO.  And a lot more entertaining...



Yep,  posted this once upon a time, in years gone by. The problem is that is not a knifehand.

It is a forearm strike. [Seeing as my post was about the double knifehand, and not about the forearm strike, it would confuse some readers to mix up techniques. I would rather not confuse em.]

So how do we know it's not a knifehand?
His arm is way too deep, past the neck. His elbow is just above the pimp's collarbone.

(If you set video speed to .25 it becomes a lot easier to spot.)






But you are right, that it is way more entertaining.
It also demonstrates that the Karate guy didn't wait for the other guy to swing first.

Which of course violates the precept "There is no first strike in Karate" laid down by Gichin Funakoshi.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Which of course violates the precept "There is no first strike in Karate" laid down by Gichin Funakoshi.


If you take the precept literally as translated, then yes, it violates it.  I interpret it as ‘defense only.’  Striking first when a true attack is imminent is defense IMO.  I doubt Funakoshi would wait for the pimp to physically strike first, but I can’t say for certain as I’ve never met him.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> If you take the precept literally as translated, then yes, it violates it.  I interpret it as ‘defense only.’  Striking first when a true attack is imminent is defense IMO.  I doubt Funakoshi would wait for the pimp to physically strike first, but I can’t say for certain as I’ve never met him.



But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim. 

I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances. 

But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim.
> 
> I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances.
> 
> But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.


I haven’t read every state’s SD laws.  Not even close.  But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first.  It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.

I can see it now...
“But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”

“But did you throw the first punch?”

“Well, yeah.  I wasn’t going to let him stab me first.”

“Guilty!”


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I haven’t read every state’s SD laws.  Not even close.  But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first.  It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.
> 
> I can see it now...
> “But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”
> ...



Welcome to Murica!


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Welcome to Murica!


I figured only New York State was this stupid.  We all want to be left the hell alone, yet everyone wants to tell everyone else how to run their lives and pass laws to enforce it.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I figured only New York State was this stupid.  We all want to be left the hell alone, yet everyone wants to tell everyone else how to run their lives and pass laws to enforce it.



Well, the progressive postmodernists have been pushing this victim mentality/class warfare crap for so long that we have lost the rugged individual mindset. 

We are super offended over anything these days.
This turf fighting has only served to divide the greatest nation on the planet into tribal groups. 
we are no longer "we the people." we are "we the oppressed".

And the only one who wins are those who set up the "divide and conquer" scam.

So we need more and more laws to make us free.

Irony.


----------



## Anarax (Jun 24, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> But not every jurisdiction treats swinging first as a valid defense claim.
> 
> I agree with you, and in his writing G.F. has advocated for preemptive attack under certain circumstances.
> 
> But some places striking the pimp first, would get the karate guy arrested.



I agree that the Karateka in the video could have possibly faced charges if in certain jurisdictions given the Pimp didn't rear his hand back in an attack preparation. However, rearing your fist back in preparation for attack is assault even without making contact. That's why the terms assault and battery are usually put together, thus in a lot of cases you don't have to wait to get hit before responding if their attack has already started. Though I understand your point that the laws on the books and how it's enforced don't always correlate.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I haven’t read every state’s SD laws.  Not even close.  But of the several I’ve read, not once have I seen anything resembling who struck first.  It’s a decent rule of thumb at best, especially with kids, but not much more than that. I’d be shocked to see someone get convicted of assault solely because they threw the first punch.
> 
> I can see it now...
> “But your honor, he was running straight at me with a knife”
> ...


I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".


----------



## skribs (Jun 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".



The problem with everything being on video is you have someone harassing a police officer for 20 minutes throwing things at him and when he's finally had enough rocks and garbage thrown at him and pepper sprays them, the only thing that the public sees is the 10 seconds where he defends himself.


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## Danny T (Jun 25, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree, it the assailant has a weapon in hand surely there would be no question about who strikes first. In TN at least, there is verbiage about an immanent threat that has to be proven. As long as you can prove you or someone near you is in danger you have a good case even if you throw the first punch. In this day and age of everything being on video, that can help you or hurt you. Most LE know the quicker you can diffuse a situation the less physical things get even when the video shows otherwise. The layperson doesn't understand what would usually happen if a violent situation is allowed to extend because someone wants to be "nice".


We don't know everything that happen but what is shown.
There is an explanation which stated the other man was "hitting one of his girls". It was going on long enough for the instructor to view it and walk down the stairs, cross the street, and to confront the situation verbally. He then walks away. The attacker has shown the propensity to hit others and we don't know what is being said to the defender but I'm certain he wasn't discussing how much he enjoyed meeting him. His previous actions and immediate actions as he approaches along with his verbally discussion of affinity toward the guy presents an immediate threat of physical bodily injury. 

As to the no first strike argument the pimp had already thrown several. The defender threw the 'last' strike not the first.


----------



## geezer (Jun 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> By adding a hand pulling, the short distance knee kick and face punch can work well.



Getting back to the OP's question regarding simultaneous double strikes,  Yes, in Wing Chun simultaneous double strikes, and even _triple strikes_, are often demonstrated as illustrations of the style's well known emphasis on efficiency. So, the theory goes, two or even three strikes landing at the same time gives you more bang for the buck, right?

...er _No_. I'm with Tony on this one. When working against a resisting opponent we all quickly learn that it is hard enough to land a single solid hit at a time, regardless of style, and as Tony stated before, when you do land a hit, it is easier to focus your force into a single strike than to split it between two or more strikes.

So, in the beautifully posed demo picture above, we see a punch and kick hitting at the same moment and it seems very efficient. And indeed there is a very similar movement is found in the Dummy Form. Nevertheless, in reality, rather than a punch, a double _lap-sau_ (grappling-hand) and kick would be a higher percentage move than this simultaneous l_ap-da_ (punch-hit) and front kick. IMO this stuff is just for coordination training and for show.

Here's a photo of the late GM Yip Man posing a technique that makes more sense to me ande similar to the one I referred to above: _Com-na jeet gherk (_a double _lap_ or grapple and shin kick).
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ea/0e/dcea0e81b38fdd5335a96ff8c3ee79d9.jpg

Interestingly, there _are _a few double punch or double palm movements that are quite powerful and useful in very specific situations, especially some self defense scenarios, but I would say they are the "exceptions that prove the rule".


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 27, 2018)

geezer said:


> Here's a photo of the late GM Yip Man posing a technique that makes more sense to me ande similar to the one I referred to above: _Com-na jeet gherk (_a double _lap_ or grapple and shin kick).
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dc/ea/0e/dcea0e81b38fdd5335a96ff8c3ee79d9.jpg


Believe it or not, during the 1st day of my high school long fist class, I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" (How many 14 years old ever challenged his MA teacher during the 1st day?) He said, "come and punch me." I punched at him. he grabbed my punching arm with both hands with one hand on my elbow joint and one hand on my wrist joint (as showing in this picture). He then put his foot on my leading leg knee. My punching momentum made me to move forward but since my knee was blocked, I fell forward. That was the 1st throw that I have learned in my life (long before I even started my Chinese wrestling training).

In CMA, it's called 搂臂迎门踢 (Lou Bei Ying Men Ti) - arm pulling front door kick.






[/QUOTE]


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## JR 137 (Jun 28, 2018)

Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...

So I said I’d try double punches in sparring.  I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels.  I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan.  I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some.  I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level.  Straight on and at angles.

I was 0 for however many I threw.  Most common response was a roundhouse kick to my head by the higher ranks.  Next common response was a punch to my head.  And a few front kicks to my stomach.

Actually, the most common response was a look like “what the hell are you thinking?” as that happened practically every time, regardless of rank.

I’ll try it out on two specific teenage kids when I get a chance.  They’re good for that stuff.  

I’ll keep trying and report back.  Now back to our regularly scheduled drifting of the thread...


----------



## skribs (Jun 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...
> 
> So I said I’d try double punches in sparring.  I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels.  I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan.  I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some.  I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level.  Straight on and at angles.
> 
> ...



I find it surprising that you didn't land any.  If anything, I'd think that a bigger chance to land would be a pro of a double attack.

I'd play around with it in my sparring, except we do Olympic-style TKD sparring, which punches to the face are off limits, and double punches are usually seen as a push, which is off-limits.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 29, 2018)

skribs said:


> I find it surprising that you didn't land any.  If anything, I'd think that a bigger chance to land would be a pro of a double attack.
> 
> I'd play around with it in my sparring, except we do Olympic-style TKD sparring, which punches to the face are off limits, and double punches are usually seen as a push, which is off-limits.


We don’t punch the face either.  Hard to describe, but I made the motion towards the face, kind of like a jab fake.  I typically try to throw face punches and land them at the very top of the sternum/chest; basically aim for the jam and come down at the last second.  Sounds stupid written,  it seeing it would be very obvious.

I also tried punching the top of the sternum and stomach simultaneously.  I had to get pretty close, and a few times it did look and feel more like a close-handed push than a punch.

In all fairness, I was trying too hard to make something work.  If I play around with it and give it some time to become something I’m not forcing, it may actually become semi-effective.  I’ll play with it a bit more, but I’m not too convinced right now that it’s really worth putting in a lot of effort.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> We don’t punch the face either.  Hard to describe, but I made the motion towards the face, kind of like a jab fake.  I typically try to throw face punches and land them at the very top of the sternum/chest; basically aim for the jam and come down at the last second.  Sounds stupid written,  it seeing it would be very obvious.
> 
> I also tried punching the top of the sternum and stomach simultaneously.  I had to get pretty close, and a few times it did look and feel more like a close-handed push than a punch.
> 
> In all fairness, I was trying too hard to make something work.  If I play around with it and give it some time to become something I’m not forcing, it may actually become semi-effective.  I’ll play with it a bit more, but I’m not too convinced right now that it’s really worth putting in a lot of effort.


Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.


----------



## JR 137 (Jun 29, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.


We don’t do much of that during free-sparring.  That’s really my main criticism.  We do plenty of it during partner work, drills, prearranged sparring type stuff, etc.

And I agree it would be far more effective and sense-making (is that a word?) in that context.  I was just trying it in a very superficial face value kind of way.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 30, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Do you do any clinching within your sparring? If you don't allow clinching, inside fighting, or standing grappling/seizing then a lot of what is shown within forms will never make sense.








How absolutely true Danny.

This is an example of what my studies on karate has led me to. Note... this is not my video but reflected values and principles in Te that I have found on my journey. Thank God for researchers in organizations like the IRKRS. And 95 % what's in this video is in the kata that I know.

The other issue is kata drift and stylistic changes that have been made to look pretty in competition that have become disconnected from the older applications and drills, and have to reinvent the wheel to make new bunkai fit.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jun 30, 2018)

.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Update on attempting simultaneous strikes...
> 
> So I said I’d try double punches in sparring.  I finally got a chance to spar with a few adults at various levels.  I’m a 2nd kyu (brown belt), and tonight I sparred a few rounds each with two 3rd kyus, two 3rd dans, and a 4th dan.  I tried double punches at least once on everyone, and a few times on some.  I tried double punches were my fists were side by side, and double punches where one fist was up a face level and the other was at stomach level.  Straight on and at angles.
> 
> ...


Ooooh! Ooooh! I've tried double punches in sparring before!

Not sure how effective they were, a few times I tried one higher one lower, and also next to each other (morote tsuki). Couldn't get much power and they felt more like a push but I did land them, it would be fun to experiment more. And I'm sure one could really get some power into them if you move forward and put your whole body into it.

I also did a double punch during my 4th Kyu grading, but at the time I was mostly delirious and just beyond gone (that grading is a particularly significant and incredibly challenging one...)


----------



## Danny T (Jun 30, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> How absolutely true Danny.
> 
> This is an example of what my studies on karate has led me to. Note... this is not my video but reflected values and principles in Te that I have found on my journey. Thank God for researchers in organizations like the IRKRS. And 95 % what's in this video is in the kata that I know.
> 
> The other issue is kata drift and stylistic changes that have been made to look pretty in competition that have become disconnected from the older applications and drills, and have to reinvent the wheel to make new bunkai fit.


Yep...there is far more grabbing/seizing/locking/standing grappling/throwing or take downs in kata than most realize. Because kata is done in the air and terminology is not translated properly most of the real applications have never been learned.


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## skribs (Jun 30, 2018)

You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 30, 2018)

skribs said:


> You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.


Yeah true, I guess I didn't have that in mind while sparring hehe. And yeah the push/shove is very underrated!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 30, 2018)

skribs said:


> You know, pushes can be effective crowd control against multiple opponents.


You can push your opponent

- off the cliff.
- into heavy traffic.
- ...

But old saying said, "You should keep your friend close but your enemy closer."


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## TSDTexan (Jun 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can push your opponent
> 
> - off the cliff.
> - into heavy traffic.
> ...



push em into the path of a subway car, off the platform.


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## DaveB (Jun 30, 2018)

Usually the simultaneous strikes in Shotokan kata are applied with one strike landing and the other attacking their attack.

Occasionally we also have the distraction strike and real strike idea. 

Both work fine.


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## skribs (Jun 30, 2018)

@TSDTexan @Kung Fu Wang @_Simon_ 

Last time I did sparring against multiple opponents, when I got tired half my moves were just to push someone.  Usually I would push one of them and they would be knocked back into the other.  Granted, there were 5 of them, so they were clumped together pretty well.  And also they were all about half my weight or less, so I had that advantage as well....



DaveB said:


> Usually the simultaneous strikes in Shotokan kata are applied with one strike landing and the other attacking their attack.
> 
> Occasionally we also have the distraction strike and real strike idea.
> 
> Both work fine.



We do plenty of simultaneous blocks and strikes in our school, but when we do it's clear that one is a block and one is a strike.

Fakes usually are timed a little bit apart, but I can see using multiple motions and only putting power into one.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 1, 2018)

skribs said:


> @TSDTexan @Kung Fu Wang @_Simon_
> 
> Last time I did sparring against multiple opponents, when I got tired half my moves were just to push someone.  Usually I would push one of them and they would be knocked back into the other.  Granted, there were 5 of them, so they were clumped together pretty well.  And also they were all about half my weight or less, so I had that advantage as well....
> 
> ...



Sometimes the power is in the faint in order to sell it as a threat while using less power to hit a more sensitive target. 

A double strike is more like a limb destruction and strike rather than a block and strike.


----------



## skribs (Jul 1, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Sometimes the power is in the faint in order to sell it as a threat while using less power to hit a more sensitive target.
> 
> A double strike is more like a limb destruction and strike rather than a block and strike.



I can see that.  I like to Kiyhap really loud as a feint sometimes to set them off balance and then go in.  If you do it rarely, it works every time.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 1, 2018)

Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.


That's a pretty good interpretation. 

The dumping throw is a common enough application but I've not seen it from a clinch before. 

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.


This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.

If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.

To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down. You will have plenty time to punch your opponent after you have taken him down on to the ground.

If you create your form from this application, your right hand won't be a punch to the north motion, but a push to the east motion.


----------



## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.
> 
> If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.
> 
> ...



This is why in the threads I've been making (mostly in the TKD section), I've been focusing on what I'm calling the primary application of a movement.  I easily see how the double-punch here could be a high block and underpunch/uppercut.  Or an outside block and a strange punch to the nose.  I can also see it preparing for a Figure 4 wristlock.

But as it's called a double punch, I want to understand it as a double punch.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> This is why in the threads I've been making (mostly in the TKD section), I've been focusing on what I'm calling the primary application of a movement.  I easily see how the double-punch here could be a high block and underpunch/uppercut.  Or an outside block and a strange punch to the nose.  I can also see it preparing for a Figure 4 wristlock.
> 
> But as it's called a double punch, I want to understand it as a double punch.



Would you drink bleach because it is labelled water?


----------



## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Would you drink bleach because it is labelled water?



I have no sense of smell, so quite possibly yes.


----------



## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This s the issue when you try to map the form into application, instead of try to create form from application.
> 
> If we talk about that application in this clip, the moment that you pick up your opponent's left leg by your left arm, The moment you should use your right arm to push on your opponent's neck and take him down.
> 
> ...



A common staple for takedowns is atemi waza. This is a theme in Karate jitsu, as well as many other Asian MA. It has the effect of pain, and misdirection.

Here is atemi waza blended in judo.





There are many quotes of the old masters coaching us to strike just before a throw.

You say that
"To punch your opponent's head and then take him down is not necessary. You may lose your chance to take him down."

I say, while it may not be 100% necessary, it is certainly be beneficial. and if this has been drilled until it is a core reflexive action it won't hinder, but greatly aid. I greatly doubt that I will lose my takedown for having boxed him in the temple or jaw or ear.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> There are many quotes of the old masters coaching us to strike just before a throw.


It depends on whether your strike will be

1. part of the throw,
2. set up for the throw, or
3. counter-productive to the throw.

IMO, it's 3 in that clip. His punch will make his grab much harder if his opponent tries to deal with his punch.

When you

- throw, you want to be in clinching range.
- punch, you want to be in punching range.

Since sometime when your opponent dodges your punch, he may move outside of your punching range and away from your clinching range.

In that clip, his right hand tries to punch his opponent's head, and then tries to grab his upper collar. That punch can cause his grab to be difficult.

But if he integrates punch and throw as one move, use his right arm to push on his opponent's throat, that will be 1 move instead of 2 moves.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Sometimes a double strike is a double strike, but sometimes it is something else.


That application depends greatly on the opponent not doing his job properly with the head control and knees.

Once the knee is blocked, the attacker should be putting his foot right back down on the ground and not leaving his leg up to be scooped. Generally, to be successful in catching the leg on a knee strike you need to make the knee miss so that it continues moving up.

The demo starts with the attacker already having compromised the defender's posture and structure by bending his head down. Once the attacker has that advantage, he should not give it up easily. If he continues breaking the defender's balance, structure, and posture, then the odds of the defender landing an effective head punch or scoop and throw are very poor. The defender's first priority (other than defending the knees) is to regain his posture.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That application depends greatly on the opponent not doing his job properly with the head control and knees.


Old saying said,

- If you can have full control on my head, I'm not a good wrestler.
- If I can't have full control on your head, I'm not a good wrestler.

Which one is right and which one is wrong?

We train single leg against MT clinch and knee strike all the time. Will a MT guy kill a wrestler with his knee strike, or will a wrestler take that MT guy down with his single leg? That depends on that MT guy's skill against the other wrestler's skill.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It depends on whether your strike will be
> 
> - part of the throw,
> - set up for the throw, or
> ...



in Okinawan karate, punching range is/or starts at clenching distance.

As often contrasted with Japanese Shotokan. Okinawan Karate is an infighting art and always has been.

Often times, we seem to see karate taught as Block, then Punch.
This is a kyu level thing.

As time goes by we learn that block and punch were always simultaneously executed, and that the separate block punch was a training method to bootstrap a student through striking fundamentals.

There is a lot of implied and assumed information. The strike to the face shows us the speed needed for entry and seizing of the collar. The strike to the head/face is a misdirection.

And yes it is a 2 for 1 deal.
a very common theme.

The collar grab is essential, it sets up the endgame position after you have the opponent halfway to the collar choke.

Successfully ringing his bell before the sweep ensues a higher chance of getting that second hand into the collar.

Otherwise, you might damage your hand punching him repeatedly, with his head on the ground.


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## skribs (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> Often times, we seem to see karate taught as Block, then Punch.
> This is a kyu level thing.
> 
> As time goes by we learn that block and punch were always simultaneously executed, and that the separate block punch was a training method to bootstrap a student through striking fundamentals.
> ...



I like all of this.  The bolded part is something I had not considered before.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> The strike to the face shows us the speed needed for entry and seizing of the collar. .


The question is do you really need to "seize the collar" in order to finish that take down? IMO, that collar seizing is not necessary. A simple neck push will be good enough to take your opponent down after you have picked his leading leg.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

I have issue with this head control. You use both hands to control your opponent's head while give him 2 free arms. His 2 free arms can do a lot of things on you.

Here is a simple math.

If you use

1. both arms to control my both arms, I will have 0 free arm.
2. one arm to control one of my arms, use another arm to control my head, I will have 1 free arm.
3. both arms to control my head, I will have 2 free arms.

IMO, 1 > 2 > 3.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The question is do you really need to "seize the collar" in order to finish that take down? IMO, that collar seizing is not necessary. A simple neck push will be good enough to take your opponent down after you have picked his leading leg.



Of course not. It's a setup to finish.

The question is answered in the use of force spectrum. The applicant may be using this on a bandit who may have killed or injured someone already, and merely pushing him over isn't a viable option at this point. The goal or objective is to incapacitate his ability, perhaps even terminally.

While the gi is not common attire for westerners, the attire or clothing of the period would play a role in kata development.

Yes, a push would be an easier and earlier end to the exercise. As the opponent is on the ground, and the defender is standing. A good outcome, but it hasn't fully resolved the conflict. Some opponents may refuse to give up hostiles here, and simply stand up and continue to fight.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have issue with this head control. You use both hands to control your opponent's head while give him 2 free arms. His 2 free arms can do a lot of things on you.
> 
> Here is a simple math.
> 
> ...



While there is a great deal of truth in what you say...
I think that you are missing out on something here. If you leg pick someone you have compromised a lot of their posture and structure.

Starting in a clinch, subtract your lead leg as it is stuck in the pick. Now, you had both your hand in the clinch up.. they are now free to do things...

Please share with me, how you would go about your power generation for striking on one leg, and how powerful that is going to be while simultaneously, getting punched in the face.

It is pretty disconcerting.... because me and some boys have been playing with this position.
And there is a strong reflex to stop the face punching, and it's hard to mount an offence when your eating punches.

Especially, when it's coming like a left hook, out of the blindspot. It's a lots easier when the punch is still expected, but even, then Roger knocked another guy down because he put too much power into the punch. And it's worse because its a freebie, because both defending hands were in the clinch behind the head.

But back to your dislike of this head control....

You raised a few points against this head control from clinch.....





What is Rich Doing? He has two free hands! By your argument.... He should be free to do a lot of other things with those two free hands. And he just lets Silva knee kick him three times, and drag him back away from the fence.

And yet we still see this two handed head control popping up alot.
Why?
Because it is powerful, because if left undefended it can lead to knock out knee strikes.

It is hard to defend your head and torso, regain posture and mount an offence when knees are constantly striking.

it is a staple of Muy Thai, Muy Boran and Okinawan Karate.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 2, 2018)

TSDTexan said:


> If you leg pick someone you have compromised a lot of their posture and structure.


When someone gets you into a MT clinch and knee you, if you are a good wrestler and you can't grab his leg and take him down, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself. 

The single leg is a wrestler's bread and butter. If a MT guy's knee strike can't kill a wrestler. The wrestler's single leg should be able to take that MT guy down.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 2, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone gets you into a MT clinch and knee you, if you are a good wrestler and you can't grab his leg and take him down, you should get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.
> 
> The single leg is a wrestler's bread and butter. If a MT guy's knee strike can't kill a wrestler. The wrestler's single leg should be able to take that MT guy down.



The question is how fast a knee strike can a wrestler catch, and how fast can the Striker return to starting/prechamber position?


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## EddieCyrax (Jul 3, 2018)

To quote Dirty Dog from another thread 

"As with other things you've said, this mostly shows that you're still stuck in the 'techniques' stage, and haven't progressed to the principles yet.
This movement is a block. It's also a strike. It's also a grapple. It's also a release."

kata's are a practice of motion.   The application is dictated by the situation.

As others have articulated, a simultaneous strike could be truly a strike, a push, a clinch, the beginning of a throw, a method to distract, obstruct vision, etc.  this list goes on.

Kata practice is to put these movements into your muscle memory to be pulled out when required.  Play with the principles in your sparring.


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## skribs (Jul 3, 2018)

EddieCyrax said:


> To quote Dirty Dog from another thread
> 
> "As with other things you've said, this mostly shows that you're still stuck in the 'techniques' stage, and haven't progressed to the principles yet.
> This movement is a block. It's also a strike. It's also a grapple. It's also a release."
> ...



Yes, I've heard this before. Because it was directed at me. You may have seen in this thread and others that I get this.

However, I want to understand if there IS an application for two simultaneous strikes.  Knowing the motion can be used for other things doesn't help me with this application.


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## TSDTexan (Jul 3, 2018)

Double kick technique

 is a good one. yes that is from a movie.... but this one isn't.




While I am not the biggest fan of sacrifice throws or kicks, and their narrow opportunity windows.... they are impressive and dangerous.

and i believe that those sacrifice kicks are slightly more applicable than the dual target double kicks...
like these.


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