# muay thai health hazards



## muayThaiPerson (Jan 17, 2003)

I posted this on a General since it has more traffic.

Theres been a lot goin around that when a Muay Thai fighter gets old, the body is weaker than average. Supposebly due to the punishment. But i dont understand the concept of this. If a fighter has stronger than average shins, then how do they end up weaker than other people later on? and the Muay Thai training great. It builds the cardiovascular organs/muscles, fighters are in wayy better shape than the average joe. So can someone explain to me how this happens?


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## white belt (Jan 17, 2003)

Though I don't have personal experience in that respectable art, I may have a clue as to the reasoning behind the body wear of a serious MT fighter.  Studies have been done on test subjects involved in Iron Man Triathalon competitions.  A field of regional top competitors were found to have abnormal wear and tear on their cardiac tissues and spine/joint stability after approx. 4-5 years of serious training.  The findings were a shock to fans and competitors alike because of the very high performance of these athletes.  The best explanation/theory I have heard so far is that the extremely prolonged intense hardship put on the body causes it to go through a constant circuitous cycle of catabolism of the internal organs and conective tissues during serious, hard, prolonged training and main events without proper rest and refueling.  Kind of like a power lifter lifting his max. lifts in the squat, deadlift and bench repeatedly over the course of several hours every single day of the week.  An eventual decrease in performance/plateauing would happen and the resultant tissue damage would slowly turn to scarring, lack of circulation, etc. from the body's fuel residues compiling and reaching localized toxic levels.  Advanced and Premature Aging would then result.  This could possibly explain the MT fighters retiring mostly in their early 20's.

white belt


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## MartialArtist (Jan 18, 2003)

As the body gets older, a lot of people can't stick to the "hard" arts and many adopt a softer style of their version.

But still, I see many old guys above 60 doing muay thai.  They can beat a lot of the younger, inexperienced guys at training but the only health hazard that is of any danger is when the old guy tries to compete.  Competition is for younger people.  Older guys are to help the younger guys compete, to help them train, to help them grow so they can become the "old guy" later on and pass it on.

The average muay thai boxer has weaker shins later on?  Is there any study on this?  Until then, I have my doubts.  But it can make some sense with all the punishment your shins went through, and like what white belt said, the nerves are just...  Ick.

A lot of people in combat sports don't have very long careers compared to say, baseball.  Football careers average at 4 years.  People like Jerry Rice are rare.

Anyone have a study on bone density compared with average people with the average muay thai practitioner?


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## sweeper (Jan 19, 2003)

I don't see how MT could give you weaker shins, I have heard this also but I haven't seen any medical studies on the subject and though I havn't spoken to a doctor I do have a freind who asked his doctor (though he wasn't a sports specialist) and his doctor said he couldn't see a physiological reason for it.

white belt, wouldn't that apply to anyone who pushed their body in an indurance sport, for example marathon runners, posably western boxers,etc?

I did read somewhere that running more than 35 miles on average a week could start to impair your immune system but there was no source for that information (think it was in a magazine or something) so I don't know how true it is.


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## white belt (Jan 19, 2003)

Sweeper,

I would think you would be correct in that assumption about Marathoners and other long duration athletes.  I would think it is worse in fighters.  The bone marrow in the body is part of the immune system.  If the marrow is damaged, then I could see how the health implications overall are amplified.  Structurally the bone may be harder, but the marrow itself may be losing it's proper functioning.  Just a guess! Studying up on some of the militaristic day long workouts of Muay Thai camps, I would almost think that the camp activities, over a long period of time, would be harder on the body in the long term than the fights!  Just my observations.

white belt


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 19, 2003)

I dont think bone marrow can be damaged like that. The only way i know is through mutation, even then its not damaged, just changed. please eloborate


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## white belt (Jan 19, 2003)

Muay Thai Person,

I am no expert.  Just trying to share ideas about how the bone is weakened.  If it is not weakened structurally, then logic points to secondary functions of some sort such as immune system.  Just an educated guess.  If nutrition is not adequate with the right minerals, etc. then I could see how the aging process could be brought on sooner.  This is a really good question you have brought up!  My question now is, is the problem basically structural or functional of nature?    Where have you come into contact with this subject?

white belt


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## white belt (Jan 19, 2003)

Muay Thai Person,

There is a guy named Damian Mavis who frequents the MT forum.  He is a TKD man who crosstrains in Muay Thai.  In fact he posted about training in Thailand FROM Thailand recently.  Get him in on the subject if possible.  He seems pretty knowledgable. 

white belt


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## MartialArtist (Jan 19, 2003)

I searched around.  There are absolutely NO STUDIES that I have found.  If anyone has any study, post it, but until then...

And it can't just be one study by an unknown group, but a good study conducted by a reputable source.  A study in like 1940 said that weight lifting stunted growth.  It was a small company that didn't even have a control group and had so many variables.  But the study was used as "proof" by doctors (which many don't know a thing about matters in sports medicine as compared with say, even regular trainers) but about a million studies came afterwards saying that it was a myth.


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## sweeper (Jan 20, 2003)

well in mauy thai to the best of my knowledge your shin bones don't get thicker, in fact alot of the strengthening of bone can be attributed to exercise, unles you were to repeatedly break your bones and not have them heal correctly I don't think your marrow would be affected. Also even if you did break your bones alot I'm not sure how much it would affect your marrow, for example it's posable to "donate" bone marrow with relativly minimal long term side effects (as far as I know the only long term effects would be if you got sick directly after you donated).

My guess would be that it's a myth..


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## birney29 (Jan 20, 2003)

I practise muay thai and i have a theory. I dont think the shins get stronger at all. well, not much anyway. i think they simply appear stronger, because all the heavy kicks, bag work ect ect, kills the nerves on the surface of the shin. This lessens the pain felt, giving an illisuion of stronger shins.

Just a thoery!


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## white belt (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, so far we have three options:

1) Structural bone weakening.

2) Marrow malfunction.

3) Urban myth.

Anyone have a FOURTH?

white belt


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## Marginal (Jan 20, 2003)

Main things I've heard about weaker shins ervolve aroudn bone chips getting lose into the blood stream, and possible development of arthritis. Both seem rather moot though unless you're a very busy professional fighter. (Not really a great number of all MT pracitioners in other words.)


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## white belt (Jan 20, 2003)

Bone chips in the blood?  OUCH!

white belt


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by birney29 _
> *I practise muay thai and i have a theory. I dont think the shins get stronger at all. well, not much anyway. i think they simply appear stronger, because all the heavy kicks, bag work ect ect, kills the nerves on the surface of the shin. This lessens the pain felt, giving an illisuion of stronger shins.
> 
> Just a thoery! *



Im sorry but you are wrong about that. The shins are really harder, if u get kicked by a professional as opposed to a normal ol joes shin, youll notice the difference. When one of my instructors held a thick pad to his shins so i can low kick, i felt his shins right through the pad. It was rock hard. And i blocked a kick from a guy who has been training for 2 years, his shins were hard as rock also


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## birney29 (Jan 21, 2003)

well, i could believe that they would feel harder, because of muscle, and low body fat. Im not a doctor(but i play one on TV) but i just dont believe the human body would pack on extra bone in this area. the only place i know in the body that does this is the collar bone


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> *Bone chips in the blood?  OUCH!
> 
> white belt *



Certain death!  So that is just not possible. Someone is talking out of the wrong end of his anatomy.


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## white belt (Jan 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by birney29 _
> *well, i could believe that they would feel harder, because of muscle, and low body fat. Im not a doctor(but i play one on TV) but i just dont believe the human body would pack on extra bone in this area. the only place i know in the body that does this is the collar bone *



Not correct sir!  My hands are proof of a gradual change in bone density from impacting a firm surface.  There are scientific ways of doing this, to lessen potential long term damage, and stupid haphazard ways.  Muay Thai Person!  Maybe the aforementioned also applies to conditioning the shins(?).  Proper shin training ensures good health, improper MT training causes premature aging and bone damage(?).

white belt


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 21, 2003)

I heard that in Thailand there are lots of washout among the Muay Thai trainees due to injury or defeat, whatever. Words are life is pretty cheap over there.  For every one that makes it in the ring, 10 are crippled, maimed or died.


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## sweeper (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by birney29 _
> *well, i could believe that they would feel harder, because of muscle, and low body fat. Im not a doctor(but i play one on TV) but i just dont believe the human body would pack on extra bone in this area. the only place i know in the body that does this is the collar bone *



You cary next to no body fat on your shin, you are hitting with bone, that's it.


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## white belt (Jan 22, 2003)

*You cary next to no body fat on your shin, you are hitting with bone, that's it. *[/QUOTE] 

You haven't seen "LUNCH LADY MUAY THAI" LIVE AT THE SUPERDOME.  SUNDAY, SUNDAY, SUNDAAAAY!!!  

I flagged Mr. Mavis about this thread, but he seems pretty busy in Thailand right now.  Check out his "TKD in Thailand" thread at the TKD area.

white belt


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## Damian Mavis (Jan 22, 2003)

Welp.... I don't exactly have the "for sure answer" but I will tell you about my experiences.

Does Muay Thai make shins tougher and harder?  It certainly feels that way.  When I shield shin on shin with a newbie to Muay Thai it hurts.... when I shield an expert who's trained a long time it feels like I just got hit in the shin with a sharp edge of steel and it is excrutiating.  I definately notice a difference...whether it's all in my head is another matter heh.  Like someone already said I do know for sure that you deaden the nerves and feel less pain over time.  Does this have negative long term effects?  I dont think so but the real question is for which person?  The average professional fighter in Thailand fights several hundred fights in their career.  I can see some permanent damage happening to them but not to a guy who just trains in North America every day without taking thousands of full contact bare shin hits on bare shin.   

BUT!  If you saw the "RETIRED" fighters that are now trainers at Fairtex you wouldnt think they had ANY permanent damage.  These guys are like 23 - 27 years old and are still in top form and can kick serious booty.  Not a single one is limping around or complaining about injuries.  That brings up another point, they retire that young because by your early twenties you have already fought several hundred times and probably were champion for a time.  It doesnt seem to have anything to do with injuries accumulated after hundreds of fights.  Only thing to do after that is retire and become a trainer since they dont have any other skills.  They retire so young because they often start their career at the age of 6 or 7.  Thailand is extremely poverty stricken, there's rich people but tons more seriously poor people.  Some families can't afford to feed all their sons so will beg the local Muay Thai camp to take their child in.  They start full time training and are fed, clothed and housed.  They often start fighting at 6 years of age when kids in North America are whining about more icecream.  It's sad but at least the kid is fully taken care of and becomes part of the Muay Thai family and is cared for by everyone there.  To the fighters and trainers this is a job, they dont do it because they love it...to many it's the only option to survive.

Anyway, long story short...... the only people that really have to worry about long term damage is the Thai's.  Fighters in North America simply will never fight enough in their careers to do the same kind of damage to their bodies.  And that is the serious fighters like Alex Gong, the regular practitioners like me and everyone else that just trains with maybe a couple of fights will never have to worry.  Unless they are an idiot and doing unsafe training techniques.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## white belt (Jan 22, 2003)

Good enough for me!  Thanks Damian.

white belt


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## Matt Stone (Jan 22, 2003)

I am a soldier.  Have been for 11 years.  In that time I have seen young, fit soldiers wind their way down the road to handicapped status by being "hooah."

The training in the military is tough.  The physical fitness training is demanding.  Then why do so many soldiers end their short careers (20 years is usually when most folks get out, and 20 years is nothing compared to some folks' careers in the civilian sector) with debilitating injuries that earn them disability compensation upon retirement?

I came in the Army in 1987.  I was in perfect health, and was in pretty good shape.  Now, 11 years later, I have 2 herniated discs (probably due to airborne training and constant running), degenerative joint disease (again, likely due to constant running), and arthritis as icing on the cake...  How old am I?  A fresh faced 34 years old.

So what does this have to do with Muay Thai?  Nothing.  Then again, the point is simple - beat your body, abuse it long enough, and eventually it _will_ give out.  You don't last forever, so conserve what you have while you are young while training to be fit when you are older...  

Like Comrade Pavel says in his seminars "you'll miss your knees when they're gone."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 22, 2003)

I thought I read a similar thread in which someone stated that constant stress against the shins causes calcium deposits as repair for the abrasions on the shins. Calcium deposits... which are bone caluses, thereby making the shins harder. Along with the fact that it dullens the nerves of the shins.

Anyone else read that post? I think its a pretty logical hypothesis. 

:asian:


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 22, 2003)

Made a strong case for drinking more milk and/or taking calcium supplement.


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I am a soldier.  Have been for 11 years.  In that time I have seen young, fit soldiers wind their way down the road to handicapped status by being "hooah."
> 
> The training in the military is tough.  The physical fitness training is demanding.  Then why do so many soldiers end their short careers (20 years is usually when most folks get out, and 20 years is nothing compared to some folks' careers in the civilian sector) with debilitating injuries that earn them disability compensation upon retirement?
> ...



sounds like its best for people to leave their bodies alone and not workout. i never knkew workouts turn around and mess you up


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## Matt Stone (Jan 22, 2003)

And getting beat on is hard...  

Sure, you develop some extraordinary skills with constant beatings, but eventually, _eventually_ you will have to pay the bill for all the wonderful things you got from the training...

It is a rare thing for an old soldier to still have good knees or an uninjured back.  Why is that?  Tough living, hard training.  When you are young, no worries!  Keep going!  Train with the pain!  

But eventually, _eventually_, the bill collector comes calling and the price is usually something you wouldn't normally want to pony up with - your knees functioning properly and pain free, being able to hop right out of bed without having to work yourself into a standing position first, being able to sit and lay comfortably about the house without needing support pillows or special drugs to help you cope with the constant aches...

Muay Thai produces great fighters.  So does Kyokushin and many other arts.  But take a look at what happens when they are older, and I would be willing to bet money there aren't all that many 65 year old practitioners of those arts that are still able to dish out the same level of training...  Due, primarily, to old injuries keeping them from performing.

Train SMART, not HARD.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## fringe_dweller (Jan 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *sounds like its best for people to leave their bodies alone and not workout.*



Hear hear! Let's just sit around and drink beer  

Respectfully,


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 22, 2003)

What Mr.Mavias stated earlier, is quite true. Fighters fight to survivie. But thats not as common as it was 20-30 years ago. Only 12% of the population is poor. Mr.Mavais sounds like he knows alot about MT, very interesting to read his posts. :asian:


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## Damian Mavis (Jan 22, 2003)

Only 12% of the Thai population is poor?  Then they have a different standard for poor here.  heh. For North american standards the majority of the population here lives in poverty. 

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## birney29 (Jan 23, 2003)

Damian Mavis,

you talked about long term damage to fighters in Thailand, perhaps youd be interested to know that thailand has one of the highest shin bone cancer rates in the world. im also interested in the fact you said "Fighters in North America simply will never fight enough in their careers to do the same kind of damage to their bodies."

correct me if im wrong, but i dont think this is an america-centric question. there are other countries out there in which muay thai is popular. contrary to popular belief, North america is NOT the center of the universe


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## white belt (Jan 23, 2003)

North America ISN'T THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE?   I'm packing my bags!  When my ancestors left Scotland and Ireland over 200 years ago, the travel agent mislead them!  

Birney29,

Where did you get your stats on the Shin Cancer?   Shin NOT Skin, right?  Do the Scots / Irish still have the brutal art of "Purring" there?  I think that's the name.  You know the contest where the men hold each others shoulders and kick each other in the shins until one submits to defeat?  Doc Martin, the shoe of champions!  Sponsored by Guiness!

Where's my copy of Galileo's map?
white belt


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## birney29 (Jan 23, 2003)

Definately Shin Bone cancer. I cant remember where i read it originally. it was an article in a martial arts mag. ill try and find it. I also saw it mentioned in a documentry on the National Geographic channel, about Mauy Thai. 

as for the Purring, ive never taken part in such an event, altho i know its still done up north (i live in central scotland). We also have a sport called Shinty. Possibly the most brutal game on the planet. Picture Field hockey crossed with ice hockey and lacross. And a lot more violent! no padding is worn, even by the goalies!! injurys and deaths are not uncommon. Only really played by the Scots and the Irish. and sometimes the welsh. The english are too scared to play!


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## white belt (Jan 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by birney29 _
> *Definately Shin Bone cancer. I cant remember where i read it originally. it was an article in a martial arts mag. ill try and find it. I also saw it mentioned in a documentry on the National Geographic channel, about Mauy Thai.
> 
> as for the Purring, ive never taken part in such an event, altho i know its still done up north (i live in central scotland). We also have a sport called Shinty. Possibly the most brutal game on the planet. Picture Field hockey crossed with ice hockey and lacross. And a lot more violent! no padding is worn, even by the goalies!! injurys and deaths are not uncommon. Only really played by the Scots and the Irish. and sometimes the welsh. The english are too scared to play! *




Birney29,

Sport?  Over here we call that a "group mugging"!   The subject of potential injury gets my attention more and more as I get older.  I am a TKD man in his forties.  Any info. you can share is appreciated.  Been doing MA for 20 years.  Feel pretty good, but wise enough to keep a watchful eye.

white belt


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## birney29 (Jan 23, 2003)

yeah, im gonna try and do some more research into it. it caught my attention when i read that articlie. ive been doing wing chun about 2 and a half years, and starte muay thai 6 months ago. it really does pound your shins. id really like to knw the long term effects. im also an ice hockey goalie, and was told that because ive broke my fingers so often, i would likely have problems with them in later life, with arthritis and possibly bone cancer. great. ill let you know what i find


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 23, 2003)

Just condition your shin by kicking the Thai banana bag or just the heavy bag. Go gentle at first until you build up your pain tolerance.  This way, no serious damage to your shin. The Thais used to kick banana tree in the old days. Banana tree is not exactly tree. It is very soft. May be even softer than your heavy bag.


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## Damian Mavis (Jan 23, 2003)

Birney 29, sorry I put a birdy up your butt.  I didnt mention any other countries because I dont know as much about them AND I do know that there are some European fighters that indeed do fight as much as the Thai fighters.  I don't know of any North American fighters that do though.  If my talking about North America bothers you.....well sorry.

The shin cancer thing is scary.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 23, 2003)

Birney29,

Thats the first I heard about the highest shin bone cancer rate... what di you say the name of that article was??


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## sweeper (Jan 23, 2003)

well I think it's also important to think about intensity..  if you fight every week or every other week (and I mean fight not spar) than you are fighting at a higher level of intensity and most likely your opponant is trying to hurt you..  getting micro fractures along your shins every couple weeks probably isn't good for them..


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 23, 2003)

Briney is right. ive read that too but dont remeber where. i think it is mainly caused by kicking bamboo trees. im not sure but please post some research


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 23, 2003)

Nevermind...although I said i read it somewhere, i just did a quick research and found nothing. the only occurence i found was when this guy had a tumor in his shin. But he was a X-Country runner, not a MT fighter


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## birney29 (Jan 24, 2003)

Damian,

didnt mean to snap mate, but for all the non americans that use the internet, its immensely fustrating that North americans seem to assume that they are the center of the universe. no offence was meant.

Thunder foot,

about the conditioning, 

i kinda think your missing my point. you talk of conditioning the shin. It is this conditioning that causes damage. after all, what do we mean when we speak of conditioning? its damaging the nerves so we feel less pain. And bashing the shin bone again and again can not be good for it.

the article,

i will try and find the article today at work and post it here. ive got nothing better to do at work anyway!


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 24, 2003)

No, I do believe I see your point. I was just inquiring as to the proof so that I can get a little more insight on the subject.

Dulling the nerves of the shin may appear damaging, but I haven't seen any real proof to the  damaging effects... stronger bone mass maybe?

The article would be much appreciated.


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## birney29 (Jan 27, 2003)

okay guys, sorry bout the delay.

not the article i originally read but,

http://www.realfighting.com/1001/fl.htm

seems to be quite interesting. i will keep trying to find the first article. its so fustrating not being able to find it!


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 27, 2003)

Who is this fellow, Frank Ludde ? What is his qualification?

I read the article. It is something you would hear at the local bar.


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 27, 2003)

I tried contacting the source of the article, but the email address was not valid.

I read the article, there was many valid points, but I disagree with some of his statements. Shins are toughened to prevent injury during use of that particular weapon. I don't think both side of the controversy were considered.

The context of that article was a little extreme. IMHO.


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## sweeper (Jan 27, 2003)

I think that was a little one sided. He was talking about major desesitisation to pain, like killing all the nerves off and the injury that accumulates because of the lack of sensitivity..  Now I could kick a bag for quite some time without it hurting, but that doesn't mean I don't have any sensitivity, if you poke me with a knife or a needle It's still gona hurt..  likewise if I fracture my shin I will deffenatly know it (ok this hasn't happened to me so I guess I might not know it  but than again I'm not a thai boxer).

I mean it's one thing to hit a pad over and over again, it's another to be in constant pain and try to hobbel through it.

I think alot of it is just common sence..  if you get hurt, I don't mean simply fealing pain or discomfort, but if you are injured, you better stop and let it heal. I know this from playing soccer, you can have a bad sprain that would heal in two weeks and play out the rest of a game and have it heal in 3 months..  that's just a partialy torn tendon, now if you have a fractured shin that's even worse just because anytime you have weight on that leg 1: it's destributed through your bone and 2: your muscles have to stabalise your anckle so they are pulling on the bone. (where as a sprain you can avoid putting preasure on the injured tissue in most cases. than add on repeated impact and I can see how things could start to snowball leaving you "out of the fight" for quite a but of time, or perhaps just having a persistant injury.

I Don't think that interview says as much about conditioning being bad as extreem conditioning.


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## birney29 (Jan 28, 2003)

i think its a well written and sensible article. The problem is i think people dont want to belive it. im a thai boxer and i woudl love it if what the guy is saying wasnt true, but it must be. If you kick things with your shins again and again, you arent doing your shins any favours. Theres no point living in a fantasy world, we are damaging our bodys. We can call it conditioning if we like, and try to kid ourselves that we wont have any long term harm, but i, and a lot of others realise that is not the case.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 28, 2003)

What the guy wrote, essentially, was "if the pain becomes intolerable, then you should stop".   Great revelation there!

"...Desensitizing any body part is an act against nature; it has a very high price. In some cases blood clots can form. Then the price is STROKE, and in extreme cases DEATH..."

If you get hit, you have bruises, desentisized or not.  Bruises are blood clots, hematoma. How many cases of stroke as a result of that? How many cases of death as a result of that?

Desensitizing the shin properly, is not going to cause any problem. The damage is the result of improper methods.  

Using the shin against muscle targets is not going to damage your shin. Shin to shin impact DO have the greatest risk of cracking the shin. Hardly a revelation neither. But this is where the source of problem lies.


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## birney29 (Jan 28, 2003)

"Desensitizing the shin properly, is not going to cause any problem. The damage is the result of improper methods"

err, i think it might. the fact you have killed nerves is surely a problem in itself. the guy that wrote the article seems to know what he is talking about. 

"If you get hit, you have bruises, desentisized or not. Bruises are blood clots, hematoma. How many cases of stroke as a result of that? How many cases of death as a result of that?"

quite a lot actually, and i think your missing the guys point. he said in some cases that blood clots can form. this is true. it happened to my dad just before Christmas. can it cause strokes, of course it can! no one is saying that a little bruise is gonna kill you. but a really bad bruise in a bad area, can, and will cause you serious problems. if you want to stick your head in the sand and prentend your invincible, thats your problem. i genuinely hope nothing bad happens to you. But dont kid yourself on that "conditioning" your shins will do you know harm. By definition you are damagind them.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 28, 2003)

Hundreds of thousands of martial artists have "desensitized" their fists and  hands striking the heavy bags, bean bags, sand buckets or what have you. How many have dropped death of stroke as a result of blood clots?  

"..a really bad bruise in a bad area, can, and will cause you serious problems...."

No kidding. But, we are talking about the shin here. I would like to see some medical research showing that banging the shin can result in stroke.   Has anyone ever gotten a stroke from bruises to the shin?


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 28, 2003)

That article appeared to be both, one-sided and extreme.

Conditioning can be traced all throughout nature. Animals condition themselves according to the task needed for their survival. Are they damaging their bodies in the long term? No, their bodies adapt to whatever task they are involved in. The same thing applies to Martial Arts, which has been the reason that all Martial Arts that come to my mind have practiced in this manner. I can't think of one art that doesn't directly involve, or contain as a by-product of training, the act of conditioning.

From the context of the article, It would seem that daily life activities also cause nerve damage. Seriously though, in order to be effective at anything that involves repetition, you have to condition yourself.

In Respect,

THuNdeR_FoOT


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## Damian Mavis (Jan 28, 2003)

I do TKD, as a result my ankles are messed up from the constant pressure put on them from kicking with them.  I was so happy when I joined Muay Thai because it took the pressure off my ankles and onto my shins.  You are right Birney29 if you constantly kick bone with bone you will have problems...but only fighters with over 100 fights have to worry about that.  In my training we all kick nice comfy thai pads.  Theres no pain, no injury and no reason to worry.  Even the banana bag is way to soft to cause the kind of damage you are thinking of.  I just dont get your attitude on this subject, how hardcore do you train?!  Because no one I've met trains as hard as you are thinking of, it's the pro fighters with tons of fights that get constant damage done to their shins IN THE RING, not during training.  Considering most of us dont have to worry about any of this the whole topic is moot.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## birney29 (Jan 29, 2003)

once again, i think people are kidding themselves.

Damian,

my training is pretty hard, and i do fight competitively. But, the most damage i do to myself is in training. Without a doubt. the sheer repition  that we do in training is what will cause us problems. even slamming against a thai pad 100's of times over will damage your body. Maybe not a lot, but over time it might mount out.

Thunder,

you compared this to the animal kingdom. How many tigers have you seen attacking trees for practise? 

everyone seems to talk about "conditioning" kidding themselves them on that in there own case, its different and not doing themselves damage. you are!! thats what conditioning is! damage. If you are going to do serious martial arts, you will have to condition the areas of your body that are used for striking or blocking. no one is disputing that. But dont carry on living in a fantasy world where you think you are doing your body no harm.


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## Damian Mavis (Jan 29, 2003)

"But, the most damage i do to myself is in training"

Honestly man I think you are training unsafely if you are damaging yourself during training...I'm not trying to argue with you for the sake of arguing but kicking the thai pads is not damaging your shins in a way that is going to give you problems down the road.  Even the old pro fighters here in Thailand in their 50's and 60's that have fought hundreds of times say they have no problems but I'm sure there are those that do.   My point is... these guys kick shin on shin thousands of times throughout their lives... the people reading this board might never do that even once.... kicking Thai pads and banana bags repetitivley is a safe way to condition your shins a bit.  The pro fighters here say it takes about 50 fights before you stop feeling pain from full contact shin on shin strikes in the ring.  

Yes you are right we are doing ourselves harm,  getting a bruise on your shin is harm of a sort.  It's obviously damaged whether it hurts or not.  Will it cause serious problems down the road in life from getting a few bruises from the banana bag?  NO.

When you fight is it with shin guards or is it bare shin full contact fighting?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## ThuNder_FoOt (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by birney29 _
> *
> Thunder,
> 
> ...



Animals do condition themselves. Its key to their survival, but I'm not going to argue on that. 

I do agree with you. Conditioning DOES cause self-damage. But only in extreme cases. But i think you're forgetting the variables that come into play. There is the severity and intensity of the training that is done. I believe Damien is also right in his comments. Unless you're a professional fighter with constant bouts, chances are you won't really have any problems. Unless you have infinite amounts of time to devote yourself to training, the severity will never be the same.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> * Theres been a lot goin around that when a Muay Thai fighter gets old, the body is weaker than average. Supposebly due to the punishment. But i dont understand the concept of this. If a fighter has stronger than average shins, then how do they end up weaker than other people later on? *



Maybe they are talking about micro fractures or calcium deposits in the shins as a result of conditioning. 
Something along the lines of permanent shin splints I guess.


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## RyuShiKan (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> *
> Yes you are right we are doing ourselves harm,  getting a bruise on your shin is harm of a sort.  It's obviously damaged whether it hurts or not.  Will it cause serious problems down the road in life from getting a few bruises from the banana bag?  NO.
> *



Actually bruises can lead to all sorts of complications.


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 29, 2003)

by desentisizing, i believe the author means to get a rolling pin and rolling your shin. or any other way of explicity desentisizing. when kicking a heavy bag, the point of impact is a soft dense surface. its not a hard surface. kicking ply wood of low density is totally unlike kicking a heavy bag of high density. when kicking heavy bags, you still maintain feeling...my shins are denser and i still have feeling. i used to kick helmets, they hurt so i stopped. after my training, i kicked a helmet, it didnt hurt and i broke it (the helmet). but i tried to kick a wooden chair, it hurt.  where am i getting? kicking a heavy bag makes your bone stronger while maintianing the feeling


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## birney29 (Jan 30, 2003)

Damian,

you asked about my fights. its shin on shin, no gear except 12 oz Gloves.

something i think we should all remember, our bodies are an amazing piece of design. everything about them is there for a reason. So, the sensitivity of our skin is there for a reason. To change this, we are doing damage. you can dress it up all you want and call it "desensitizing" but its still damage


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 30, 2003)

So, are you giving up MuayThai and just staying with your WingChun  ?


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## birney29 (Jan 30, 2003)

no chance! i enjoy it to much


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## sweeper (Jan 30, 2003)

I would say if it was that important you couldn't change it.

when you desensitise your shins you don't actualy "kill" the nerve cells they simply are less sensitive to that form and level of stimulus. I don't think that it is true dammage but rather adaptation. Actualy your nervus system operates like this in alot of regards to senses. For example if you repeatedly are around a specific smell the apparant potency of the smell will decrease. If you are away from the smell for some time it will seem like it got stronger, Simularly you can regain fealing in your shins over time. also you can feal other sensations like heat cold or even simly someone brushing your shin with their finger.

I'm not saying the conditioning of your shins isn't dammaging in the long term but rather it isn't simply the blunt destruction of nerve endings.


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## MartialArtist (Jan 31, 2003)

However, I notice in arts like muay thai, combat TKD, kyokushin, and other hard arts have people retiring a lot faster than softer arts like aikido, taijiquan, and even jujitsu.

Reason is you get in VERY good shape, but sometimes, you wear yourselves out.  You see 40 year old jujitsu people competing while in muay thai or TKD, they are in their 20's.

Of course, people over 30 still train in their art, it's just that their bodies can't handle it anymore.  Most go off and become coaches, trainers, instructors, etc.  They still have unsurpassed skill compared to the younger guys and can beat almost all of them in a fight, but they just can't duke it out round after round in the ring.


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## birney29 (Jan 31, 2003)

yeah thats a fair point, im 21 just now, but i cant see myself competing in muay thai past 30. its just too intense.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 31, 2003)

What? Not concerned about "damaging" your body anymore?


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _....after my training, i kicked a helmet, it didnt hurt and i broke it (the helmet)....



How long have you been training? Can we see some pictures of you breaking helmets with your shin please?


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 31, 2003)

I didnt take pictures. It wasnt a demonstration, I just wanted to see for myself. Currently, I am in the 8th month of training. i go almost everyday for 1hr


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## muayThaiPerson (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *However, I notice in arts like muay thai, combat TKD, kyokushin, and other hard arts have people retiring a lot faster than softer arts like aikido, taijiquan, and even jujitsu.
> 
> Reason is you get in VERY good shape, but sometimes, you wear yourselves out.  You see 40 year old jujitsu people competing while in muay thai or TKD, they are in their 20's.
> ...



I dont understand the concept of this. When people train, the get stronger. Maybe Im really misunderstanding....when you say retire, you mean from fighting or Martial Arts completely (as in dont even train)


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## MartialArtist (Feb 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> *I dont understand the concept of this. When people train, the get stronger. Maybe Im really misunderstanding....when you say retire, you mean from fighting or Martial Arts completely (as in dont even train) *


What I mean by retiring, is that their retiring from competition.  Doesn't mean they quit the art or anything.

When people train, they get stronger.  In contact sports however, the body does get in better condition but it gets beat up a lot.  It's like comparing football and basketball.  The average career span of a NFL football player is 4 years.  The average for a NBA player is 8-12 years.  The NFL has people like Jerry Rice, or Tim Brown, and the other aged people but they are rare.  Most of the people you've never heard of can't take it 4 years, their bodies just got hit too much.  Same with muay thai I guess.

The body also wears down as you age and arts having hard principles get harder and harder to do.  That's why some people switch to softer movements.  Others still train in their art but they take it easy, they prefer to teach, coach, and pass their tradition on to their students and be a mentor.  The 60 year old muay thai practitioners that I know of don't get in the ring to have a bout with their 20 year old students and go rounds.  However, they still practice with bags, etc. and a lot of the older ones bring their 20 year old students down just like that.  The only problem is that they can't do it in the ring.

In TKD also, the old guys don't spar full-contact.  But they can still break your arm pretty easily.  It's also like that in the military.  The seniors can kill you, but they can't go in the ring and box other soldiers.


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## birney29 (Feb 3, 2003)

napalm,

of course im concerned about damaging my body. i wiegh up the risks and decide that i still want to train and compete


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## MartialArtist (Feb 3, 2003)

Whether you train in a hard art or not, there comes a time where you just have to hang your gloves up.  You aren't going to die any sooner because you trained in something like muay thai, but the other way around.  It's just that you've made those years special by competing, or whatever you do.


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## birney29 (Feb 4, 2003)

well, if youve done youself serious damage while competeing, you are gonna die sooner.


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## Damian Mavis (Feb 4, 2003)

Birney 29, you make 30 sound ancient!!  I'm 29 and just starting to fight Muay Thai style....what are you calling me old!  haha

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## muayThaiPerson (Feb 4, 2003)

*EARLIER, IN THIS THREAD, SOMEONE POSTED THEY READ THAT SHIN CANCER RATE WAS HIGH IN THAILAND. HOWEVER THEY FORGOT THE WEBSITE.....IVE JUST FOUND IT* 

HERE


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## MartialArtist (Feb 4, 2003)

Is it really due to muay thai?  Not everyone in Thailand does muay thai, and the nutrition, sanitation, environmental conditions aren't the greatest.  No, Thailand isn't the sweat-shop, prostitutes, and the 3rd world country ignorant people think it is, but the standard of living isn't say, like it is in Japan.

Other cancers are also higher in Thailand than compared with Japan.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 5, 2003)

> I'm not saying the conditioning of your shins isn't dammaging in the long term but rather it isn't simply the blunt destruction of nerve endings.



Actually you are destroying nerve endings, fortunately the human bodies peripheral nervous system is capable of regenerating (at least to some degree).  If it takes more than a couple of days to regain "feeling" then you have damaged the nerves.  Since in most cases the damage is superficial, the nerves will regrow in a chaotic fashion and may eventually make surface contact again.  This is how it is possible to regain sensitivity, if during regrowth the nerves never again make "surface contact"  then you will not experience any increase in feeling or sensitivity.

Your body is like a fighter jet, if you fly it real hard without maintenance or scheduled airframe work (relative to your skeletal structure) you are cruising for disaster.  Make sure to eat calcium rich foods, and take supplements like Glucosamine Chondroitan to aid in the regrowth of ligaments and cartilage.


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## sweeper (Feb 5, 2003)

well I personaly havn't seen any research report showing this (I know that doens't mean it's not true )

And of course in such (relativly) high impact all your cells in the emediate area take a beating, but I havn't seen any evidence to show that the nerve cells are dammaged to the point of loosing fealing. If that were the case all tactile sensation should be reduced correct?


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## muayThaiPerson (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *Actually you are destroying nerve endings, fortunately the human bodies peripheral nervous system is capable of regenerating (at least to some degree).  If it takes more than a couple of days to regain "feeling" then you have damaged the nerves.  Since in most cases the damage is superficial, the nerves will regrow in a chaotic fashion and may eventually make surface contact again.  This is how it is possible to regain sensitivity, if during regrowth the nerves never again make "surface contact"  then you will not experience any increase in feeling or sensitivity.
> 
> Your body is like a fighter jet, if you fly it real hard without maintenance or scheduled airframe work (relative to your skeletal structure) you are cruising for disaster.  Make sure to eat calcium rich foods, and take supplements like Glucosamine Chondroitan to aid in the regrowth of ligaments and cartilage. *



what do you mean by "if during regrowth the nerves never again make "surface contact"  then you will not experience any increase in feeling or sensitivity".....so you have to keep kicking to get you feeling bag??


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## Damian Mavis (Feb 5, 2003)

MartialArtist: "No, Thailand isn't the sweat-shop, prostitutes, and the 3rd world country ignorant people think it is"

The part about prostitutes is everything people say it is here.  I had heard the stories but it wasn't even close to the real thing... this place is insane for prostitutes.  It's wilder than anything you can imagine...unless you have a really wild imagination!  What I mean is, basically, there is a crapload of prostitution here.  It's not a slight against this country, it's just the way it is here and it seems to be very acceptable.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 6, 2003)

> well I personaly havn't seen any research report showing this (I know that doens't mean it's not true )



You are correct



> I havn't seen any evidence to show that the nerve cells are dammaged to the point of loosing fealing. If that were the case all tactile sensation should be reduced correct?



This would imply that you only have a few nerves in, for instance, your lower leg (Tib-Fib area).  When in reality you have a great deal of nerve endings that percieve surface events.  Your nervous system is best described as a large tree.  What you are damaging (assuming that damage occurs during this particular event) would be the little branch sprouts that hold the leaves.  If you cut a few of those little branches off, your tree still has leaves and will most likely grow back the ones that you cut off.  If more serious damage is done, for instance to the sciatic nerve which runs from the spinal chord down as far as your ankle, you can have serious problems, but that isn't exactly what we were talking about.

What it comes down to is simply this, it IS possible to damage nerve endings, but it IS also possible to retain "tactile" sensitivity because of the numerous amount of nerve endings that are close to the surface of the skin.  Look at it this way, where can you cut yourself with a knife that it won't hurt?  The answer is NO where assuming that you have zero nerve damage.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 6, 2003)

> what do you mean by "if during regrowth the nerves never again make "surface contact" then you will not experience any increase in feeling or sensitivity".....so you have to keep kicking to get you feeling bag??



No.  Nerves in the peripheral nervous system can regrow to some degree (over a period of time).  When they do they don't necessarily grow in a straight line.  The pattern of growth is chaotic, it would be like trying to PUSH a water hose across your yard from where it connects to your house.  Sure it's easy to do over a few feet, but what is the likleyhood (sp?) of being able to accurately push it to an intended target 30 ft away.  Not very high.  Nerves work exactly like this only on a much smaller scale (generally in terms of millimeters).  You can help, to some degree, your body recuperate by gently rubbing afflicted areas to maintain circulation, this will keep blood from pooling in damaged areas.  In most cases seeing a Doctor familiar with athletic injuries is of the greatest benefit.  In otherwords, don't take your Porsche to the motorcycle shop for repairs.


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## muayThaiPerson (Feb 6, 2003)

OK, i thought about this....all of us martial artist in every country  trains with heavy bags and/or pads. And the kicks arent taps. Also, we kick with our shins. So why does shin cancer mostly occur to MT fighters?? I dont know. but i doubt it has to do with the art. Why not karate ppl or kung fu ppl? I think kicking a bag is totally irrelevant to shin cancer


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## sweeper (Feb 6, 2003)

If you are "conditioning" your shins by destroying nerve endings than shouldn't all your tactile preception drop at the same rate relative to your pain sensitivity?


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## muayThaiPerson (Feb 7, 2003)

Shin conditioning is really bone strenghening. As for the nerves, its just being numbed up little. nerves arent the main point of shin conditioning. and youre not dropping any tactile perception since you can still feel and the bone is much much stonger


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## MartialArtist (Feb 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> *MartialArtist: "No, Thailand isn't the sweat-shop, prostitutes, and the 3rd world country ignorant people think it is"
> 
> The part about prostitutes is everything people say it is here.  I had heard the stories but it wasn't even close to the real thing... this place is insane for prostitutes.  It's wilder than anything you can imagine...unless you have a really wild imagination!  What I mean is, basically, there is a crapload of prostitution here.  It's not a slight against this country, it's just the way it is here and it seems to be very acceptable.
> ...


When I was there, I saw a couple of prostitues but streets were never full of them...  Like a Red Light District.  Has Thailand changed that much?


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## Damian Mavis (Feb 10, 2003)

Oh man... maybe you just stayed in the nice areas?  I travel all around and see so much crap it's unbelievable.  In Koh samui in broad daylight when you are walking to your training the prostitutes actually physically assault you and try to drag you into the massage parlours.  By the way 99% of those "traditional Thai massage parlours" you walked by are all fronts for brothels.  In Bangkok there is a red light district ya, but there's also a thousand "plazas" which are like outdoor malls with gogo bars full of girls to pick to BUY.  Then there's the dance clubs..... uhm those girls are on the fricking job.  When I first got here I went to a couple of dance clubs and thought I was pretty studly with all the attention I was getting but they all wanted my money.  Basically if you like them they will go home with you and then ask for money.  NOT THAT I DID THIS!  I just found out when my Thai friends were laughing at me because I was thinking they actually liked me for me haha.   They schooled me pretty good on the realities of Bangkok.  My friends that have lived here for 10 years say this is actually a new trend, it didnt used to be this way.


Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## angrywhitepajamas (Feb 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *No.  Nerves in the peripheral nervous system can regrow to some degree (over a period of time).  When they do they don't necessarily grow in a straight line.  The pattern of growth is chaotic, it would be like trying to PUSH a water hose across your yard from where it connects to your house.  Sure it's easy to do over a few feet, but what is the likleyhood (sp?) of being able to accurately push it to an intended target 30 ft away.  Not very high.  Nerves work exactly like this only on a much smaller scale (generally in terms of millimeters).  You can help, to some degree, your body recuperate by gently rubbing afflicted areas to maintain circulation, this will keep blood from pooling in damaged areas.  In most cases seeing a Doctor familiar with athletic injuries is of the greatest benefit.  In otherwords, don't take your Porsche to the motorcycle shop for repairs. *



This is what my Senseis have told me on the subject of body conditioning. Here's the summary of it.

"Its not the kicking of the bag that causes cancer. Its the damage that you do to the cells in the bone.  Repetitive damage forces the cells to divide rapidly.  Cell division is the only time that the dna is vulnerable to mutations. these can be caused by a lot of things like stress and the environmental hazards(ie polution, viruses, radiation, etc). The rapid cell division increases the chance of cancer formation simply because of increased amounts of vulnerablity."  

hope this helps.


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## Damian Mavis (Feb 11, 2003)

"angrywhitepajamas"

Son of a beach...that is the best damn name for a martial arts forum user...damnit I'm so jealous.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


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## angrywhitepajamas (Feb 13, 2003)

well at least someone understands the joke.

And as an addendum, we as human beings are always exposed to cancer causing agents.  Our bodies have and entire sub section of the immune system that deals with cancer.  But cancer is only expressed when that system breaks down or is overwhelmed.  It takes quite a bit to over whelm that part of the immune system.  in addition it takes roughly 5 mutations for the cell or tissue to be considered cancerous.  Essentially we justhave to go over what has been said many times on this website, Train and Heal smartly and adhere to common sense.  

didn't mean to get every one worried.


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