# TKD\Karate cross-training?



## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

My daughter is a highly skilled WTF Olympic Style fighter.  She fights Nationally and Internationally.  With the dawn of Electronic Hogus in tkd body points have become very scarce and lead leg head kicking has become very effective. I have two Questions. We live in Las Vegas is there a top notch sport karate school in Vegas.  Do you think that X training with a top notch sport karate fighter would be good for both.

I am not trying to start a Karate Vs Tkd thread just looking for a little advice\help.


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2010)

One of the main differences I've found between karate and TKD comps is that as you said TKD score off front leg, karate will kick off either leg but use back leg mostly, I couldn't say whether this would be a problem for your daughter though.


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## Grenadier (Jul 29, 2010)

It all depends on what she wants to do.  

If she wants to stick exclusively with Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, then she might not be getting that much of a benefit by cross training, unless that school can offer something that her Tae Kwon Do dojang doesn't.  A dojo that deals with sport Karate should be teaching good footwork, fundamentals, etc., and if her dojang already teaches this, then there's probably not a need to cross train at the dojo. 

The rules for sport Karate and sport Tae Kwon Do are just too different.  In the USA-NKF competitions, for example, quality punches to the body that demonstrate good control, form, power, etc., are scored liberally, whereas in olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, you will almost never see a body punch scored.  

Sport Karate tends to focus more on footwork, setting up combinations of both kicks and punches (more emphasis on the punches), sweeps, takedowns, etc., and that's simply not of much use in the Olympic-style ring.


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> One of the main differences I've found between karate and TKD comps is that as you said TKD score off front leg, karate will kick off either leg but use back leg mostly, I couldn't say whether this would be a problem for your daughter though.



My daughter is a left leg back kicker and is much stronger with the left leg.  Her lead leg is ok but we are looking for improvement.  I was under the impression and I may be wrong wrong that allot of sport karate fighters are good with that lead leg to the face.  We are trying to improve not only the kick but to defend against it.  

My daughter has fought in both the Netherlands and Spain.  The TKD fighters in Europe use that lead leg to the face very well.  Most US fighters are better with the back leg we are looking to become more rounded and improve her game internationally. I am told that the strong lead leg comes out of Karate point fighting. 

Tkd is moving to a higher guard to defend against the increase in head kicking.  We would like to find somebody she can spare with that would be of help to both fighters


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> It all depends on what she wants to do.
> 
> If she wants to stick exclusively with Olympic-style Tae Kwon Do competition, then she might not be getting that much of a benefit by cross training, unless that school can offer something that her Tae Kwon Do dojang doesn't.  A dojo that deals with sport Karate should be teaching good footwork, fundamentals, etc., and if her dojang already teaches this, then there's probably not a need to cross train at the dojo.
> 
> ...



Thanks she gets very good instruction.  I have spoke with her Master he asked me to look around and see.  We are just looking to get an edge.  Something different to improve her TKD fighting.    Maybe karate is the wrong place.  Thanks for the post!


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2010)

In karate I've always been taught to fight off left and right stance, and kick with both front and back leg with the 'power' kick being the one off the back leg. We also used knees and elbows.
Grenadier has described the differences between the fighting styles and I have to agree, it's been nearly 15 years since I fought in karate competitions but I think the differences wouldn't help someone looking to kick more off the front leg. I went to a JKD class last night which was fun, they do all their kicks off the front leg, odd for me but they were also low kicks so no help for you.
I don't know tbh what would help but I'm sure there's someone here who will think of just the thing!


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## terryl965 (Jul 29, 2010)

Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.


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## terryl965 (Jul 29, 2010)

Jusr as a reminder to everyone he is referring to sport Karate where the back is an illegal to kick the back area so the front leg is used 90% of the time. Thier is a big difference frm Karate and sport Karate just like Tae Kwon Do and sport Tae Kwon Do.


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## Grenadier (Jul 29, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Jusr as a reminder to everyone he is referring to sport Karate where the back is an illegal to kick the back area


 
Not in most cases.  The USA-NKF rules, which are usually used for almost all competitions these days, or the AAU rules, which are still used for some competitions, allow strikes the back, provided that you don't hit the spine or kidneys.  The back is a very, very valid target, and not illegal under such sanctioned events.


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
> Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.



Thanks Terry I PM'd him


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## Carol (Jul 30, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Gorilla here is a real tip for help with that front leg, Brian Vancise here on Martial Talk was a ITF guy at one point he just moved to Vegas a couple of months ago, p.m. him and see if he would be willing to help with that front leg problem. He is top notch and a great instructor tech. wise. I would also look at a Kung Fu sport guy as well they can really help as well.
> Zachary uses that front leg great but remember we do also sport Karate tournaments a couple of times a year.



I was going to suggest the same as Terry.  

Gorilla I don't know anything about sport fighting or competition so don't take this as gospel.  The concern that I would have with regards to training with a sports Karate fighter is that it sounds to much like a solution looking for a problem to solve.  

If it works out for you, you'll have a great resource in Brian.  Best of luck to you both!


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## terryl965 (Jul 30, 2010)

Grenadier said:


> Not in most cases. The USA-NKF rules, which are usually used for almost all competitions these days, or the AAU rules, which are still used for some competitions, allow strikes the back, provided that you don't hit the spine or kidneys. The back is a very, very valid target, and not illegal under such sanctioned events.


 
Just to make it clear, in sport Karate with AAU the back is an illegal scoring area what is legal is the side and the little part that just barely turns toward the back. We just got back from competing in both National and Juniors Olympics. The AOK does not allow kicks to the back now I do not know about the USA-NKF so they may but the reason they stop allowing kicks to the back is the damage it does to the Kidney and spine.


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## Stac3y (Jul 30, 2010)

My school is sport karate, and we are a "Superfoot" (Bill Wallace) style school, so we kick almost exclusively with the lead leg. Our fighting stance is sideways. Bill Wallace has excellent drills for lead leg kicking--you might want to send your girl to one of his seminars. I went to a traditional Shotokan class a couple of times; it was really hard to make myself spar with back leg front kicks--in my style, using those is inviting a defensive side kick to the face or torso.

As to the back as a target, I've fought under AOK, SKITA, and NASKA rules. All of them allow kidney punches (except maybe SKITA; I'd have to look that up), but no other back strikes are legal. Kidney punches, while technically legal, are very, very rarely scored, so most people don't bother throwing them. Back of the head is always a target, though. 

I would say that working with a very good sport karate fighter like Ross Levine or Bill Wallace would benefit just about anyone. What's important is to take away the parts of the instruction that work for you and leave the rest.


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## Grenadier (Jul 30, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Just to make it clear, in sport Karate with AAU the back is an illegal scoring area what is legal is the side and the little part that just barely turns toward the back.



In the current rules for the AAU Shobu Sanbon (sport karate) divisions, kicks to all areas of the back are perfectly legal, and will score, unless they hit the top of the shoulders.  There is nothing in the rules that forbid them.  

http://www.aaukarate.org/RulesInfo/Handbook/ShobuSanbonCompetition.aspx

Basically, they use the same rules as what the USA-NKF uses, other than scoring point amounts.  

On another note, I competed at the USA-NKF nationals this year, just a few weeks ago, and kicks to the back were certainly scored, provided that they were of good quality, and did not use excessive contact.


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## Gorilla (Jul 30, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> My school is sport karate, and we are a "Superfoot" (Bill Wallace) style school, so we kick almost exclusively with the lead leg. Our fighting stance is sideways. Bill Wallace has excellent drills for lead leg kicking--you might want to send your girl to one of his seminars. I went to a traditional Shotokan class a couple of times; it was really hard to make myself spar with back leg front kicks--in my style, using those is inviting a defensive side kick to the face or torso.
> 
> As to the back as a target, I've fought under AOK, SKITA, and NASKA rules. All of them allow kidney punches (except maybe SKITA; I'd have to look that up), but no other back strikes are legal. Kidney punches, while technically legal, are very, very rarely scored, so most people don't bother throwing them. Back of the head is always a target, though.
> 
> I would say that working with a very good sport karate fighter like Ross Levine or Bill Wallace would benefit just about anyone. What's important is to take away the parts of the instruction that work for you and leave the rest.



Thats what we are looking for...do they have any affiliated orgs near Las Vegas?


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## Stac3y (Jul 30, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Thats what we are looking for...do they have any affiliated orgs near Las Vegas?


 
Your best bet would probably be to go to http://superfoot.com/ and ask if there are any Superfoot certified schools in Las Vegas, or if Mr. Wallace will be holding any seminars near you.


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## Manny (Jul 30, 2010)

I think if your daughter is good in WTF/Olimpic TKD the crosstraining won't help her su much because this style of competition is much more diferent that the karate competition. Maybe your daughter can benefit just a little but not much. However remeber karate is more hands than kicks and this can benefit your girl in other area like open tournaments (the ones where karate, kung fu, tae kwon do,american karate,etc face each other) karate matches and IMO self defense.

So basically try what are you are thinking and give a chance and see for your own if this Xtraining can be benefical

Manny


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## Gorilla (Jul 30, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Your best bet would probably be to go to http://superfoot.com/ and ask if there are any Superfoot certified schools in Las Vegas, or if Mr. Wallace will be holding any seminars near you.



None in Vegas...Made a call to one in Arizona and he gave me a good lead...Thanks


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## Gorilla (Aug 3, 2010)

Manny said:


> I think if your daughter is good in WTF/Olimpic TKD the crosstraining won't help her su much because this style of competition is much more diferent that the karate competition. Maybe your daughter can benefit just a little but not much. However remeber karate is more hands than kicks and this can benefit your girl in other area like open tournaments (the ones where karate, kung fu, tae kwon do,american karate,etc face each other) karate matches and IMO self defense.
> 
> So basically try what are you are thinking and give a chance and see for your own if this Xtraining can be benefical
> 
> Manny



Manny you maybe right can't seem to find a school in Vegas that would be suitable!!!  I am not saying that it does not exist but we have not been able to find one!!!  Our Master is putting together a strategy that we are going to work on in this area. They started working on it last night!  Allot of it does not look like TKD techniques but it is the direction this sport is going!!!  The hands down style of fighting that has been such a complaint about TKD is going to go away.  A much higher gaurd is needed.  The 3 point head kick is going to take care of that.  It is a head hunters sport now!


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## dancingalone (Aug 3, 2010)

Gorilla, have you looked into a kickboxing coach?  Seems like your goals of gaining better kicks off the front leg as well as better hand defense could be attained there.


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## Gorilla (Aug 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Gorilla, have you looked into a kickboxing coach?  Seems like your goals of gaining better kicks off the front leg as well as better hand defense could be attained there.



Great Idea


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## Manny (Aug 4, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Manny you maybe right can't seem to find a school in Vegas that would be suitable!!! I am not saying that it does not exist but we have not been able to find one!!! Our Master is putting together a strategy that we are going to work on in this area. They started working on it last night! Allot of it does not look like TKD techniques but it is the direction this sport is going!!! The hands down style of fighting that has been such a complaint about TKD is going to go away. A much higher gaurd is needed. The 3 point head kick is going to take care of that. It is a head hunters sport now!


 
In the last tourney I went some weeks ago where we had exposure to the adidas electronic hogus most of the fights were won by head kicks and that's because in some cases the kick to the hogu did not score so the figthers went for a slap kick to the head to be awarded with 3 points.

The way we used to see WTF/Olimpic TKD must evolve cause now not all kicks or kind of kicks score and the figthers as you mentioned will turn into head hunters.

In the past I really didn't get it why fighter use a very low guard but I realized latter because most of the kicks were to the mid section and with a low guard a kick can be deflected that way, right now with the head hunters I would rather protect my neck/face/head and to protect the body I would use shifting moves.

Manny


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## Gorilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Manny said:


> In the last tourney I went some weeks ago where we had exposure to the adidas electronic hogus most of the fights were won by head kicks and that's because in some cases the kick to the hogu did not score so the figthers went for a slap kick to the head to be awarded with 3 points.
> 
> The way we used to see WTF/Olimpic TKD must evolve cause now not all kicks or kind of kicks score and the figthers as you mentioned will turn into head hunters.
> 
> ...



You are right it is a head hunters game and you will see WTF Olympic Style TKD move to a much higher guard than has been used recently.  The lead leg is much more important.  They are scoring that head kick much more liberally than they have in the past.  The adjustments have already been made in Europe.  We saw this at the Spanish open.  The game is evolving rapidly and we are trying to stay ahead of the game.  Some have said that it starting to look allot more like karate.  I guess TKD is moving back to its roots.  I have spoken with some folks who are connected to the Philippine National Team and they are looking for lead leg head kickers.  If you don't have a strong lead leg you need to develop one it will absolutely be need in the future.


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## rlp271 (Aug 8, 2010)

If you're looking for lead leg training, have her work various fast kick drills.  Some of the fighters coming out of LA use the fast kick as their setup almost exclusively.  There might be a few of them lurking around the Vegas area.  The rear leg roundhouse is still going to be the bread and butter for most WTF players, because the electronic hogus don't score shots very easily.  I saw them in action here in Seoul during some collegiate matches last year.  The athletes weren't always happy with them, because they didn't receive scores for some techniques that definitely would have been counted in the past, but they'll adjust.

The two main techniques she might want to add to her skillset are the front leg axe kick and the front leg side kick.  Either one will help her catch people coming in, and she can train those with her current coach, or she should be able to.  The points changes for spinning and head techniques will make things interesting as well.  They experimented with the rules in pro TKD in Korea a few years ago.  Every 360 degree rotation earns an extra point for a kick that lands, so you saw some crazy stunts if someone was down by 4.  They'd try 720 round kicks to the head to try to tie it up.


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## Gorilla (Aug 10, 2010)

We went to a few Karate schools.  I was very impressed with the professionalism, knowledge and integrity of the instructors.  In the end the gap between WTF Sport TKD and Karate are just to great. Very much apples and oranges.  Not one better than the other just way different.  It almost as if we don't speak the same language.  I was very impressed with the self defense aspect of Karate and the practical application of techniques. I was very impressed with the quality of the Karate Schools.  Although it did not work out as we hoped I am very happy with experience.   

We have a greater understanding of the differences of both arts and a much greater appreciation.  The 3 instructors that we spoke with took the time to evaluate my kids discuss what we are trying to do and in each case we decided not enough common ground for mutual benefit.  Not one tried to sell me on the benefits of Karate over TKD or sign us up in their school it was and honest and frank discussion with each and I was very impressed.


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## scottie (Aug 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> My daughter is a highly skilled WTF Olympic Style fighter.  She fights Nationally and Internationally.  With the dawn of Electronic Hogus in tkd body points have become very scarce and lead leg head kicking has become very effective. I have two Questions. We live in Las Vegas is there a top notch sport karate school in Vegas.  Do you think that X training with a top notch sport karate fighter would be good for both.
> 
> I am not trying to start a Karate Vs Tkd thread just looking for a little advice\help.



I think it would greatly help!!!! just explain to the teacher what you want and what your plans are. all sport karate schools i have ever known teach all lead leg kicks and darn well.


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## Gorilla (Aug 11, 2010)

scottie said:


> I think it would greatly help!!!! just explain to the teacher what you want and what your plans are. all sport karate schools i have ever known teach all lead leg kicks and darn well.



Thanks Scottie...As you can see from my previous posts we have made a diligent attempt and it still might be a good Idea...We have not been able to find a suitable karate school to cross train...If you know of any in Las Vegas please let me know I will resume the search!


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## terryl965 (Aug 11, 2010)

Gorilla have you tried Las Vegas Shotokan Karate Sensei James Tawatao is the head instructor their and has alot of knowledge, the school is located at 2929 W sahara Blvd. I believe he also has an instructor by the name of Rey something that used to have an awesome lead leg. I do not know if they would remember me but I did some training with them a while back. I hope this helps you.


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## Gorilla (Aug 12, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Gorilla have you tried Las Vegas Shotokan Karate Sensei James Tawatao is the head instructor their and has alot of knowledge, the school is located at 2929 W sahara Blvd. I believe he also has an instructor by the name of Rey something that used to have an awesome lead leg. I do not know if they would remember me but I did some training with them a while back. I hope this helps you.



Thanks I will stop by


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## Gorilla (Jan 31, 2011)

Just an update on our Karate Journey.  We have been training for about 6 months in Shotokan Karate(Hiroshi Allen) and will be competing in the US Open (NKF) in April. It has been a big add to my kids TKD and they thoroughly enjoy Sport Karate.  They both seem to complement each other quite well!!!! 

We are very lucky to be training under Sensei Allen a real pro!!!!


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