# Karate Connection - IKCA



## Rob_Broad (Jan 13, 2002)

Just wondering what the members here thinkof the IKCA program.  I know it is only 55 techniques long, and it has a small beginner form and what it calls the master form.  I know that you either test in a sanctioned school, or thru video.  If you test by video they send you backa tape with a private lesson to correct your mistakes.

But what does all the members think of the organization and the concept of what they are doing.


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## Jay Bell (Jan 13, 2002)

Hi Rob,

Check your PM's 

Take care,

Jay


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2002)

Never heard of it.  Is there a link?

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 13, 2002)

You can check out their program at:

http://www.karateconnection.com


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 13, 2002)

Very interesting....

Very interesting indeed....


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## arnisador (Jan 13, 2002)

I do like one thing they say--asking how long it takes to get a black belt is like asking how long it takes to learn how to play the violin.

Still, with a mail order program, one must wonder if that is the practice as well.

I am not a kenpo person--could someone explain to me the significance of using (only) 55 techniques? Is that 55 punches, kicks, and blocks, or 55 combinations of such? How many are in a typical kenpo curriculum?


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 13, 2002)

The regular American Kenpo system uses 154 Self Defense techniques,14 sets, and 10/11 forms.  The IKCA system is using 55 self defense techniques and one little form then the master form which gets added to each belt level.  

A self defense techniques a pre-arranged series of basic to defend against a set attack.

In American Kenpo the techniques are not the end all to be all, they are a tool to help you learn the principles and rules of motion.  They also teach you the mechanics of motion, and many other lessons.

Jay Bell has a better grasp of the IKCA program than I do.  I have not taken the IKCA program, and have no vested interest other than I know a few people who are current members.


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## Jay Bell (Jan 13, 2002)

The "55 techniques" is put together into something called the "Master Form" *chuckle*

It's broken down at each belt you learn a handfull of self-defense techniques...which are labeled, "Orange Belt 1, Orange Belt 2" and so on.  You do these "self-defense" techniques in succession, creating one big kata out of them.

Example -- Orange 1

Opponent punches -- left.  Defender does an inside block (right) while moving to the side of the opponent.  The right arm guides the punching arm into the hand of the left and does a backfist to the floating ribs.  The same hand (once opponent is bent over) draws back high and does a sword hand strike to C-3.

Damn...I still remember that garbage!


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

Don't hold anything back Jat Bell, forums like this are to keep us informed about what really goes on out there.  If you have some gripes, and qualms about their program please share.


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## Jay Bell (Jan 14, 2002)

I'll pass on the offer honestly....there's a lot of legality issues that could come of it.

In my opinion though, IKCA is nothing more then a business venture to line the pockets of the founders.  It is by far the most in-effective art that I have ever been involved with.  If they concentrated more on training instead of creating an video black belt empire, that may not be the case.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

I understand and respect your wish to discuss it no further.  I hope it hasn't soured the martial arts for you.


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## Jay Bell (Jan 14, 2002)

Honestly, after that situation I did think about leaving training...but it was many years ago and I started training in other arts a few months later.


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

C'mon. It can't be worse than the TKD'ers!


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *C'mon. It can't be worse than the TKD'ers! *



In fairness, many will admit that this is generally taught as a martial _sport_. In that sense they are not being hypocritical.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *C'mon. It can't be worse than the TKD'ers! *



Once again, Gou, I trump you with CMD/Q 

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Jan 14, 2002)

Alright. You win.
...this time...

As for sport TKD...well...when people tell me that TKD is the killing art of the 21st century...I laugh a lot.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 14, 2002)

Is anything as bad as WTF-TKD or CMQ.  Like I said before I am just looking for more information on this system of Kenpo.  I know a few people who hold belts in it and as a friend I would like to see them learning something that is reputable.


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## warriorsage (Jan 15, 2002)

Well it seems obvious Jay Bell had a very bad experience and that is too bad. But my experience has been pretty positive and moved me light years ahead of where my previous, traditional training had me. To each his own I guess.

My main problem with Mr. Bell's opinion is that he seems to think their program is a scam to make money and that the program itself is a joke. I've been directly involved w/ a few different arts, as well as a couple of different kenpo disciplines and I learned quite a bit from the IKCA. And anyone who has ever been a part of the program knows that they don't just take your money and hand you a belt. You get quite a bit of feedback for your money. They wouldn't do nearly as much for the student if all they were chasing is the almighty buck. Also, they may not teach as much quantity of kenpo as you'd like, but what they teach is extremely similar to what is taught in American Kenpo. So if you think that American Kenpo is a joke, then maybe your argument is valid. But if you are a fan of American Kenpo, then you'll be learning a very comparable, albeit leaner, version of that art. I also don't really understand your problem with the orange belt material. I get the fact that you think it sucks, but why? What specifically did you think was ineffective about the first technique in the sequence? Or is it that you have a problem with the practice of techniques in general? Also, I'd like to know what legalities prevent you from discussing the IKCA in public. Could you maybe email me with some particulars? 

As far Rob's question, the system actually has quite a bit of material, just not when compared to an American Kenpo or Tracy's school. The amount of basics, techniques and form(s) was much more than my former TKD or TSD schools. Well, maybe not when you consider the 15 variations for each type of kick, but still...most tradtional arts or hard style arts that I've seen don't have any katas that come close to the length that the Master Form has.  The master form is longer than any of the American Kenpo empty hand forms, but I admit it is the only Long form in the system. The Orange belt form is a different take on short 1. It doesn't teach all that short 1 teaches, but teaches many similar themes, at least on  a basic level.

I found that while I love what the IKCA taught (and still teaches) me, I have a thirst for more sophisticated material and therefore sought out American Kenpo instructors to help take me to where I want to go.  I know Rob isn't really considering the program, due to his existing knowledge base and level of skill, but for me it was a great intro into kenpo and for many others it may be as well. And for those that have limited hours a day to train and  decades to devote to learning basic self defense, it may be all they ever need.


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## John_Boy (Jan 16, 2002)

Well stated Sage.  I have also been involved with the IKCA for a few years and have had a very positive experience with the founders...both in person and long distance. 

Parker's statement "I would rather have ten techniques I can fight with rather than one hundred techniques that fight me."  is born out in this system.  It is a great place to start and like Sage said, it may be all the farther some want to go.  In the case of the latter it is still a complete and effective method.


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## arnisador (Jan 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by John_Boy _
> *Parker's statement "I would rather have ten techniques I can fight with rather than one hundred techniques that fight me."  is born out in this system. *



George Dillman, at a recent seminar, told a possibly apocrophal story of an Indonesian (I think) system with only 11 or 12 techniques. The instructor taught one technique per year and the students would practice constantly of course. The students knew those techniques _very_ well.

How many techniques are there in boxing? How effective has it been?


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## John_Boy (Jan 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> George Dillman, at a recent seminar, told a possibly apocrophal story of an Indonesian (I think) system with only 11 or 12 techniques. The instructor taught one technique per year and the students would practice constantly of course. The students knew those techniques very well.
> ...



VERY good points.  Thank you sir for the input.:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 16, 2002)

Glad to see there are some positive remarks as well as the negative.  No sstyle or system can be all good or all bad.  I think it all depends on what you put into it.


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## GouRonin (Jan 20, 2002)

Regarding material and amount of it...well...SOME Kenpo is better than none at all!
 
I think that the IKCA likes to drill on basics and stay away from the confusing mass that Kenpo can be. To that I say, you can't go wrong with Basics.


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 20, 2002)

I don't see anything wrong with the basics.  And that is what their program seems to consist of.  From what I have seen their material is very close to AK, just the weapons and names are different.  Instead of having 3 techniques to teach you a principle they do it with one.  I have seen the master form with it being 55 self defense techniques long it looks like it can be a bit of a challenge.


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## clapping_tiger (Mar 19, 2002)

I belong to a school that teaches the IKCA system and have had no problems with the material at all.  I have compared AK techniques like thundering hammers to the IKCA technique clashing hammers.  I feel clashing hammers finishes off the opponent better, the techniques are basically the same, except that you take out the knee and when the opponent is on the ground add a kick to the head.  What Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux have tried to do is condense the material so you have the same weapons without the hundred and some techniques. Ed Parker wanted the system to evolve not stay stagnant and freeze when he died.  Chuck and Vic did their best to do that.  Now granted there could be more added to the system, I will not argue that fact, but you get out of your training what you put into it.  I don't learn off of video so I cannot comment on that aspect of the IKCA, but I do know there is other things you can do to make a system more complete and it is called cross training.  In our school we not only learn the IKCA Kenpo system but also groundfighting and Weapons like the bo, sai, tonfa, nunchaku, along with some escrima.  We also do all our techniques on both sides; so I can do every technique I know for both a right side attack and left side attack. 
    Overall I think it is a good system, it could use some improvement but hey, list one system that couldn't.  It definitely is not inferior, just more condensed and less repetitive.  Like I stated before it all comes down to how hard you train, and how good of a school you belong to.


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## Sigung86 (Mar 19, 2002)

Can't imagine that there would be any legal difficulties in discussing thoughts and concepts regarding something like the IKCA.  Forums are for that, as long as you don't sort of border on libel, etc.

I will say that I do personally know Vic LeRoux, and have a telephone acquaintance with Chuck Sullivan.  I honestly believe that they are stand up people.  I won't go into detai here, but I haven't ever gone through the program, officially, yet Vic LeRoux has gone out of his way on more than one occasion to give more than I asked for.  

Innuendo is ok for some folks, but it's kind of like talking smack.  What does it say?  Not much.

Just some thoughts on it all.

Dan


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## Chiduce (Mar 20, 2002)

I feel the positive statements about the IKCA are well said. Our association has an IKCA Black Belt that is a Hall Of Famer. To me, that says a lot about the system and it's founders, as well as the practitioner. Sensei Jimeno has various avi and mpegs of the star block set etc, and has an online study program. I have personally, only heard good things about the founders and the IKCA  Distance Learning Program! Sincerely, in Humility; Chiduce!


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## tunetigress (Mar 20, 2002)

I am personally very interested in learning more about video programs such as the one offered by IKCA, and would like to know of any other video training programs out there.  I'd like to hear about what other people have experienced through the actual use of any of these programs.  Most of you people might never have to make use of such a program, as you have other 'real life' options available to you.  Unfortunately, I am now confined to my home due to a respiratory disability and have few, if any, options left to me.  Is it not a better option to continue one's study at home by video, than to have no other option than to simply quit?   Well folks, that is the position that I am in right now, and would really appreciate some info and/or support.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 20, 2002)

> Unfortunately, I am now confined to my home due to a respiratory disability



What happened to you? Your profile said something about a chemical spill?  Hope you get better some day.

I almost tried out the IKCA, there just aren't any kenpo schools close to where I live. Back in 93 my wife bought me some kenpo videos, Rick Fowler, and I studied those for a long time. I finally was able to find a good kenpo instructor about 30 miles from me, so now  I'm actually in a school too. 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 20, 2002)

Some day I'm gonna surprise Dan Farmer and get out my videos.  and home training program!


:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 20, 2002)

Go for it GD!!   

:asian:


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## nathan_sau (Mar 20, 2002)

I have found nothing but quality in the IKCA material and am very proud to be apart of its organisation. There may only be 55 techniques but with in those techniques you can blend and borrow and turn those techniques into 300 techniques if thats what you wanted. 
As for the cheap shot at the integrity of Master LeRoux and GM Sullivan, you need to get your facts straight, they couldnt be more honourable or helpful to their students, especially to those unfortunate enough to live as far away from them as i do. 
And another thing i liked is they dont get involved in all thepolitics and crap that so many get involved in, they are comfortable with where their station is on the kenpo family tree, and no one can argue with their crudentials. 
So in closing it is always wise to get to know the person or persons of whom you speak about before you go and make judgement of their character!


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## tunetigress (Mar 20, 2002)

I would greatly appreciate it if people out there with knowledge or experience of any other Video based Kenpo schools could provide any information about them.  I need to switch to some sort of 'home study' as I simply cant bear the thought of having to quit completely!  Can anyone help me with this????


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 20, 2002)

Yes, there are  options.

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nathan_sau _
> 
> *I have found nothing but quality in the IKCA material and am very proud to be apart of its organisation. There may only be 55 techniques but with in those techniques you can blend and borrow and turn those techniques into 300 techniques if thats what you wanted.
> As for the cheap shot at the integrity of Master LeRoux and GM Sullivan, you need to get your facts straight, they couldnt be more honourable or helpful to their students, especially to those unfortunate enough to live as far away from them as i do.
> *



Who took a cheap shot at them? I must have missed something.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

Jay Bell had a bad experience with the IKCA and voiced it, on the 1st page of this string....... go back and read.


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## RCastillo (Mar 21, 2002)

They seem to be ggod people. Good strong technique, and they have good fighters down here in South Texas.:asian:


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## Jay Bell (Mar 21, 2002)

> As for the cheap shot at the integrity of Master LeRoux and GM Sullivan, you need to get your facts straight, they couldnt be more honourable or helpful to their students, especially to those unfortunate enough to live as far away from them as i do.



*yawn*  I dealt with Vic, never Chuck, so I would never say a negative thing about Chuck Sullivan.  For all I know, he's a very honorable man.

My dealings with Vic and my instructor were not so, however.  These were my personal dealings with these two men...so for you to attempt to claim that I didn't know either of them would be incorrect.  As far as my "facts"...I'm still in contact with the other assistant instructor who is a close friend of mine to this day, who left on the same day due to the same reasons as I.

If I was out for a cheap shot, I would have voiced publically what occured then...which I passed on if you read correctly.  This thread started when someone asked opinions, which I gave.  You're entitled to yours as I am mine.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 21, 2002)

I'll be at the eye doctor tomorrow  


:asian:


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## nathan_sau (Mar 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Jay Bell _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Mr Bell i had no idea your opinions ran so deep and personal. I am sorry if i offended you. 
But the point i was trying to make was i thought we were going to discuss their system not discuss our personal indifferences with the instructors.

Sorry again


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## Jay Bell (Mar 21, 2002)

Nathan,

No apologies necessary.  Despite my feelings about IKCA, I'm glad you've found a positive training environment.  I know it may seem like I have an ax to grind, but I honestly don't.  Regardless of what organization or people that are dealt with, I'd prefer no one to ever have to deal with what I did...it's simply that.

Take care,

Jay


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 21, 2002)

It is always nice to see someone that has feelings one way or the other to be able to have their feelings and yet allow others to continue without flaming everyone for any comments.  

Class response.

:asian:


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## brianhunter (Apr 16, 2002)

Hey Mr. C how about a cheap course of study for us poor government employees craving american kenpo????


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## RCastillo (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Hey Mr. C how about a cheap course of study for us poor government employees craving american kenpo???? *



He'll teach you, but for the price of your soul.......


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## Sigung86 (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Some day I'm gonna surprise Dan Farmer and get out my videos.  and home training program!
> 
> ...



Ungh-huh...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan "still waiting" Farmer


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## Kirk (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *It is always nice to see someone that has feelings one way or the other to be able to have their feelings and yet allow others to continue without flaming everyone for any comments.
> 
> Class response.*




Agreed!  Well done!


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## GouRonin (Apr 16, 2002)

You all put the _"@ss"_ in _"class."_
:rofl:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *You all put the "@ss" in "class."
> :rofl: *



You just have to love how subtle Gou can be.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 17, 2002)

he can be nice at timessssssss


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## tunetigress (Apr 17, 2002)

You guys want nice?  Ya wanna see how 'nice'  I  can get too????  LMAO!  You are all too funny!


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## warriorsage (Apr 17, 2002)

I certainly agree that Mr. Bell stated his opinion and took the replies with class. I also cannot speak about his IKCA experience because I have no idea what went on.

I will say again though that his comments weren't limted to his experience with Vic LeRoux. He stated rather pointedly that he thinks the system is a joke, or atleast the technique "Beheading the Dragon", which is kinda similar to the AK technique "Shield and Sword." I'll happily let the matter drop, and will accept Mr. Bell's opinion, but (as I posted in my first reply to his comment) I'd like a little clarification on what is such a joke about that technique and/or the IKCA material. Also, what system does you now practice that makes Kenpo seem so ineffective? If you'd like, you can email me personally if you'd rather not air this info on the public forum.

warriorsage@yahoo.com

Peace


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## Jay Bell (Apr 17, 2002)

Hi sage,

I emailed you a bit ago.

Take care,

Jay


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## warriorsage (Apr 18, 2002)

Thank you for taking the time to reply with an honest, well-thought out email. I appreciate your words and thoughts. Kudos!

Ron


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 19, 2002)

That looks cool, good job!


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## warriorsage (Apr 19, 2002)

Hey DC, I just changed it again. Too hard to see all the fine details with these tiny thumbnails. New one's easier on the eyes. I made you a decal like the new logo, but with a "GoldenDragon." I thought you'd get a kick out of it. I'm sending it with your other universal. You should have it Tuesday.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2002)

too Cool!!
:asian: 

You're the best!


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