# Systema vs. Kenpo (yeah right.)



## WilliamTLear (Feb 21, 2002)

Doug,

Systema is an over emphasis of a principle in Kenpo called relaxation. And while it is a pretty neat system to play around with, it is already covered in the Kenpo System.

I played around with Martin Wheeler at Huk and Gil's Birthday bash, this last year where he exposed me to the SYSTEMA.

Systema can be consdered a part of Kenpo, but Kenpo is a stand alone art. Anyone that wants to debate me on this can read Infinite Insight Volume 4, Chapter 7, Page 148, Line # 3.

Dude, if you go over to systema your short changing yourself!

Your Friend,
Billy Lear :2xbird:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2002)

Oh Billy.......... You are so Harsh!

:fart:


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## jaybacca72 (Feb 22, 2002)

billy my friend your way off target on this one for sure and i will debate you no problem.1st yes kenpo does do relaxation techniques or principles but it is not systema 2nd martin is good but nowhere near a vladimir in skill or experience ,no offense to martin,3rd just because ed parker said it doesn't make it gospel he was after all just a man with ideas to share not a god as some percieve him to be.
later 
jay


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 22, 2002)

First...

I'm not real big on quoting Ed Parker song and verse. He isn't a god, just a great man. (I think I've written that several times in alot of places) But, the definition that I outlined for (RELAXATION) does pretty much sum up the base of the Systema system.

Second...

You might be right about Martin, but I think he is really good at what he does. I enjoyed working out with him, and I think that systema is a hoot, it's just not as effective as kenpo. 

Third...

The major premise for systema is flexibility and relaxation... sure it contains body maneuvers, etc... but Kenpo teaches all the same stuff, plus more. RELAX JAY. You're getting a little tense.

Why does Gou not like Kenpo that much anymore? Probably because the majority of Kenpo Schools in Canada have major problems (alot like Pasadena). Although, he speaks very highly of you. I think that cross training isn't bad but giving up on something you like is. (Especially for the reasons outlined above.)

Billy "Not an Arm-Chair Kenpoist" Lear :snipe2:


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## arnisador (Feb 22, 2002)

Can you expand on what this term means in kenpo?


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## donald (Feb 22, 2002)

Mr.Lear/Mr.Jaybaca,
Okay I'll bite! What is systema? I don't believe I've ever heard of it before? Is this a kenpo offshoot? Where did it come from? 
Salute in Christ,
Mainly Arm Chair Lately:shrug:


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## GouRonin (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *But, the definition that I outlined for (RELAXATION) does pretty much sum up the base of the Systema system.
> *



I think there is much more to it than that. In fact I would classify Systema as full complete system on it's own. But that would be me. I think you really have to experience it from Vlad and how he runs it.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I think that systema is a hoot, it's just not as effective as kenpo*



I'd have to disagree with that. In fact I think it is as effective in many ways. Both are much more similar than people think. Again, it is something that can be very specific to a person. A person may be very good at Kenpo but find Systema much more usful for them due to body type, size, etc. The same is true Vice Versa.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *The major premise for systema is flexibility and relaxation... sure it contains body maneuvers, etc... but Kenpo teaches all the same stuff, plus more.*



I think both arts are very deep in what they offer. Kenpo is more regimented with it's structure. I'd have to say that there is more than you might think for the major premises.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Why does Gou not like Kenpo that much anymore?*



I never said I did not like Kenpo. I like Kenpo. Who says I won't be playing around with it? I just want to spend some time doing something that I am finding facinating. If I was doing Shotokan and bumped into Ed Parker, would I be silly to want to train with him in Kenpo? Either way I train with Jaybacca because we're friends so I'm sure he'll be laying the Kenpo Smackdown.

However, it brings up an interesting mental excercise in thought. All these people who claim they have "Kenpo brothers and sisters" I will have to ask them this. If someone no longer studies an art are they still your "brothers & sisters?


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 22, 2002)

Well, your gunna need to jump of the fence sometime...

As far as the Brother Comment goes... Is that B.S. aimed at me?

Billy
:redeme:


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## GouRonin (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Well, your gunna need to jump of the fence sometime...
> As far as the Brother Comment goes... Is that B.S. aimed at me?
> *



Hell no. It's aimed at those people who indescriminatly use the term like it's water. I still see you as a bro no matter what I do. The difference is that I don't need the excuse of a martial art to do so. Why? Because I choose my friends based on the quality of WHO THEY ARE and not because they do an an art.

As far as jumping off the fence? Well, just think of me as the dog lurking in the bushes...I'm not far away...


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Mr.Lear/Mr.Jaybaca,
> Okay I'll bite! What is systema? I don't believe I've ever heard of it before? Is this a kenpo offshoot? Where did it come from?
> Salute in Christ,
> Mainly Arm Chair Lately:shrug: *



Donald,

Systema is a Russian martial art. It's premis is relaxation (to maintan speed, flexibility, power in striking, and absorb strikes). The cirriculum includes... Slips, dives, rolls, feints, fades, graqppling, and various other body maneuvers. It reminds me alot of Jackie Chan (LOL). To sum it up in a nutt-shell it's alot of fun to play with (and it has alot of applications when it comes to combining it with Kenpo), but the weapons defenses, etc... are kinda weak from what I've seen.  (Just my opinion)  .

Hope this helps,
Billy Lear :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 23, 2002)

I want to watch Gou get his little butt tossed all around the gym ......... now that would be entertaining!

Hang in there Douggie and have fun~!

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Systema is a Russian martial art. It's premis is relaxation (to maintan speed, flexibility, power in striking, and absorb strikes). The cirriculum includes... Slips, dives, rolls, feints, fades, graqppling, and various other body maneuvers. It reminds me alot of Jackie Chan (LOL). To sum it up in a nutt-shell it's alot of fun to play with (and it has alot of applications when it comes to combining it with Kenpo), but the weapons defenses, etc... are kinda weak from what I've seen.  (Just my opinion)  .
> *



Actually, that's like me saying that American kenpo is really only about the forms. It's not. It's one aspect of the art. There is a premis of relaxation. But it's not the ONLY one. Much like Kenpo, there are aspects to it.

I would say that the weapons defences are actually more developed than Kenpo. There are numerous videos Vlad has teaching self defence from weapons using anything from a book to pencils.

Dude, you really have to see Vlad. It'll change your outlook on the art.


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## GouRonin (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I want to watch Gou get his little butt tossed all around the gym ......... now that would be entertaining!
> *



I'm always having fun. And yes, last week I was thrown on top of my head and I have the bruises from the fingertips of Vlad to prove it along with the video of me saving my skull with a great breakfall. (Thanx Judo!)

It's hilarious. One moment I am standing there and honestly it looks like springs shoot out of my feet and I'm a few feet in the air and landing in the same spot. I had a precise bruise where he flipped me using only his thumb and 2 fingers.

I am currently destroying the video evidence.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 24, 2002)

Hey, I wanted to see that!!!!

:rpo:


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## GouRonin (Feb 25, 2002)

Soon...soon....soon you will ALLLLLLLL join me... heh heh heh...


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 25, 2002)

I will NEVER join you!!!

:jedi1:

Billy "I am a Jedi Knight. The force is strong within me..." Lear


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## GouRonin (Feb 26, 2002)

**bark bark bark**

((CHOMP))


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 26, 2002)

:jediduel:


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## GouRonin (Feb 26, 2002)

Heaven's no. I just smile and I just wait till you turn your back before I bash you with a tire iron.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2002)

Well you are both gonna get it.....  when I unveil my newest aspect of the IKKO.

KenpoStema......

I'll get you guys!


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## GouRonin (Mar 1, 2002)

One of the reasons I have responded well to Systema is the absence of terms regarding motion.

American Kenpo has about a billion names for it's techniques. Yes i know they have their code and all and I understand it but Systema is based more in a motion recognition theme of both visual and other perceptions.

I myself am a very visual oriented person. I see something and I can monkey it easily. Then when it's explained what i am doing i grasp it even better.

I have always had trouble remembering technique names. For example...Jaybacca asked about a technique name the other night. I shrugged. He started the motion and instantly I knew what he was doing. (In retrospect I love it when he gets insights and shows me better ways to WORK a technique)

So while for some people labelling everything but the kitchen sink is great in a system for others it's harder to deal with. (Yes, that scar on my scalp is from head trauma...shut up) The Tracy system of Kenpo might be well near impossible for me to learn based on an auditory system of teaching. Systema has been a dream for me.

This is one thing that has always bugged me about American Kenpo. I think it's a great system. However many instructors feel that they know what the student is experiencing in their journey of learning. However, I would like to point out that they do not. No instructor can say they KNOW what a student will do. For the most part they can accurately predict what will happen but there are a few of us out here who learn differently, and experience things in ways you just don't know.

I don't give a %$#@ to test in front of people. I don't do well that way. Set me off in a ring and I'm fine though. I also KNOW for a fact that my Kenpo works. I've defended myself with it. Because I don't do well in a test it I don't know what I am doing? I'm one of those particular students that doesn't fit the mold. Perhaps it's a learning disability, maybe not. I've seen guys who can rattle off terms till the cows come home who fall apart in the ring. What's that disability called? Application disability?

My advice to some instructors is "Forget what should be." Drop your egos and learn yourself how to teach the system in another manner you might never have thought about.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 1, 2002)

Very good and honest post.  

You are correct in the assumption that many instructors do now "feel what you feel" and to that they need to understand where you are coming from.  On the other hand..... they may realize that and become aware of other "ticks" they have discovered and are working on helping you rid yourself of the shyness or inability to conquer nervous problems that you possibly have,  or what ever the issue is.  

Thats why you cant be jumping around from instructor to instructor all your life because no one really knows what you need because you never stay in one place too long.  I know in your case Gou, this has not been totally your fault.  

You have a good head on your shoulders and you have a deep love for Kenpo and I know that.  This other Art has a glow that is useful for you at this time so ........ have fun.  Remember .... You'll leave Kenpo....... long before it ever leaves you.... and you already have too much in your blood to discount its validity.  So, enjoy other adventures and learn all you can...... bottom line is you are still learning and studying.. so when we  get together you can demonstrate what you have on me.  We can play and examine the  treasures we find.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 3, 2002)

You know I always enjoy learning new things. But you were not "listening" to what I was "saying" and as a result you missed the thrust of my post.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2002)

I got it. hee hee.......  I can read through the smoke...... lol....... very good post still.

Don't worry about me, I still luv ya and undstand where you are coming from and where you stand.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 3, 2002)

That post wasn't meant for you for pete's sake!

You either Billy...


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 3, 2002)




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## Dutch (Mar 4, 2002)

Why don't you just take ballet Gou?


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## KenpoGirl (Mar 4, 2002)

IS THAT REALLY YOU DUTCH????  You pain in the Butt.  :iws: 

Geeze I thought someone had finally kicked your *** outta town.
I heard rumours this past weekend at the O.K.K.A Kenpo Camp that you were around again.

Try to behave this time.  You're giving us Londoners a bad name!!!  :2xbird: 

I'll have to say the systema I saw on Sunday was wild.
You'd have to have a lot of confidence in yourself to relax that much to let a punch or attack "flow" around you.

I'll enjoy learning more, but I'll still stick with Kenpo, once I've got a handle on that I'll see what else there is to learn.

Dot


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## GouRonin (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dutch _
> *Why don't you just take ballet Gou? *



Hey, don't sing it, just bring it.
:EG:


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## GouRonin (Mar 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *I'll have to say the systema I saw on Sunday was wild.
> You'd have to have a lot of confidence in yourself to relax that much to let a punch or attack "flow" around you.
> I'll enjoy learning more, but I'll still stick with Kenpo, once I've got a handle on that I'll see what else there is to learn. *



It's funny. The more I see systema, the more I want to do it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 4, 2002)

If I see you stick your head in a Seminar........ I will knock your block off.


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## Dutch (Mar 5, 2002)

You know what you can kiss.
:moon:  :2xbird:


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

Dutch ~ you can  your :moon: goodby!

:stoplurk:


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## Dutch (Mar 5, 2002)

You won't be singing that tune when you want your 7th degree from me.


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## tunetigress (Mar 5, 2002)

Would someone kindly explain the concept of relaxation as it applies to Kenpo?  Respectfully,  _(_)_  Tune


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

Now I know why tigers  eat their young!

:bazook:


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## GouRonin (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tunetigress _
> *Would someone kindly explain the concept of relaxation as it applies to Kenpo?  *



Too many Kenpoists are tense. They need to relax. There is more power to a technique such as "Thundering Hammers" if you relax and let momentum carry the strike.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dutch _
> 
> *Why don't you just take ballet Gou? *



Actually Gou, Jaybacca, Kenpo Viking, Renegade and myself along with our buddy Sita went to the ballet last weekend and luckily Gou wasn't dancing.  But there was this one blond .......

Its all Pat's(Uncle Chocolate) fault.


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