# The responsibility gap - Prevention vs. Predation



## shesulsa (Sep 23, 2014)

My daughter has a roommate who likes to party. Her teen years and young adult years are proving to be a long series of poor and dangerous choices. She has lucked out plenty of times. She likes to get wasted and or drunk to the point of mental oblivion or passing out. It worries me that my daughter will party with her but it seems she is making better choices than her roommate.

Saturday night and early Sunday morning, this girl whom I have known for 8 years was abducted and raped. She was very drunk and walked a very long distance from downtown to a suburb at 3 00 in the morning. She accepted a ride from a stranger which turned into strangers, and once they released her at 400 in the morning she was immediately abducted, forced drugs, and brutally raped.

It is so uncomfortable to say hot we are not surprised. This young woman increase her chances by making unsafe choices. However there is a very strong anti self defense movement buy some feminists I have read lately who believe no one should have to train self defense. I have read articles & blogs that state the very act of suggesting self defense to anyone is automatically blaming a potential victim. I do not agree that putting oneself in a higher risk category of attack invites or justifies any type of violence. I would never say that she asked for it or deserved it. But I cannot say that this unfortunate victimization is terribly surprising. This is what I feared for her and also my daughter by association.

The fact that the act of rape is the fault of the offender does not change. But how do we say reducing risk is assigning blame to a potential victim? Isn't that like a willing smoker blaming the tobacco industry for not warning them of the dangers of smoking? Or the morbidly obese suing McDonalds or their favorite restaurant because they did not know they would get critically ill by eating only that food?

How can people justify rejecting the notion of self-defense?


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## arnisador (Sep 23, 2014)

What an awful situation.

The backlash against victim-blaming was not only well-intended but very much needed. But I have often thought the same: I teach defenses against knife attacks, but no one should be attacking a person with a knife. I teach defenses against being punched, but no one should be punching anyone. The extreme form of this line of thought effectively discourages people from taking sensible steps to stay safe in a world in which a frat has just been accused of a highly organized drink-drugging scheme. We can mix isn't your fault" with "There are bad actors out there and you don't want to be one o ftheir victims" in a sensible way.


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## shesulsa (Sep 23, 2014)

arnisador said:


> What an awful situation.
> 
> The backlash against victim-blaming was not only well-intended but very much needed. But I have often thought the same: I teach defenses against knife attacks, but no one should be attacking a person with a knife. I teach defenses against being punched, but no one should be punching anyone. The extreme form of this line of thought effectively discourages people from taking sensible steps to stay safe in a world in which a frat has just been accused of a highly organized drink-drugging scheme. We can mix isn't your fault" with "There are bad actors out there and you don't want to be one o ftheir victims" in a sensible way.


Yes we can. Say more about that.


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## K-man (Sep 23, 2014)

You can argue that you have the 'right' to get drunk, go into questionable areas late at night and not be harmed. You also have the 'right' to step onto a pedestrian crossing in front of a 40 ton truck travelling at 50mph, expecting it to stop. Having a 'right' doesn't obviate the need for common sense.
:asian:


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## Blindside (Sep 23, 2014)

I think most people would agree that me choosing to walk down a street in a bad neighborhood, drunk, with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets would be a bad idea.  I don't think it is wrong to talk about all the better decisions that I could have made.  The girl isn't "wrong" she just isn't very bright about personal responsibility.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2014)

Unfortunately we live in societies where women are more victimized then men in sexual and violent assaults. That's simply the facts, and I'm pretty sure its always been that way since the dawn of civilization.

Honestly, women need self defense/MA training more than men do.


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## pgsmith (Sep 23, 2014)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> How can people justify rejecting the notion of self-defense?


  Because today's society deliberately teaches that you should not take responsibility for your own actions. Not sure exactly when or why that changed, but our U.S. society as a whole is increasingly being pressured to leave responsibility in someone else's hands. I think it is the wrong thing to do as it leaves too many young people with no training in making decent decisions for themselves.
  I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your daughter's roommate, but I'm glad your daughter doesn't follow her.


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## jks9199 (Sep 23, 2014)

Blindside said:


> I think most people would agree that me choosing to walk down a street in a bad neighborhood, drunk, with hundred dollar bills hanging out of my pockets would be a bad idea.  I don't think it is wrong to talk about all the better decisions that I could have made.  The girl isn't "wrong" she just isn't very bright about personal responsibility.



Unless you said "it's a bad idea for a woman to get drunk, then wander unarmed through bad neighborhoods"; then, you're accused of victim blaming rather than recognizing that the victim's actions contributed to the situation.  There's a whole industry devoted to the idea that we should "teach men not to rape" rather than provide women with the tools to recognize bad situations and to avoid them.  

Until we quiet that group, there will be too many people who decide to play in the land of slut walks and "I should be able to..."s, and they'll block and fight tooth and nail against any attempt to suggest that a victim might do something to reduce the chances of being raped.

However -- it's also important to realize that situations like shesulsa described are relatively rare forms of rape.  Many rapes are in the range of acquaintance rapes.  I've read half a dozen or more rape reports in the last week or so.  Most follow a pattern of "got in car/went somewhere with acquaintance, got drunk/high, and woke up undressed."  (As a side note -- I wouldn't be at all shocked if the "abduction" in the OP was actually the folks giving her rides...)


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## jks9199 (Sep 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Unfortunately we live in societies where women are more victimized then men in sexual and violent assaults. That's simply the facts, and I'm pretty sure its always been that way since the dawn of civilization.
> 
> Honestly, women need self defense/MA training more than men do.



They do.  And too much of what they're given is too little, too late, and ineffective at best.  

If you're going to teach self defense, do your homework.  Start by recognizing that, for most women, a self defense scenario -- even the mildest -- starts with your "nightmare opponent" for most men.  Odds are that they'll be facing someone significantly bigger, notably stronger, more used to violence (even with the namby-pamby "tag is too rough" crap today)...  and that's just the beginning.  The types of attacks change with different areas, too.   Again, just a starting point.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 24, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> However there is a very strong anti self defense movement buy some feminists I have read lately who believe no one should have to train self defense.



We all have to do things we shouldn't have to, that is just life.



shesulsa said:


> The fact that the act of rape is the fault of the offender does not change.



No one has the right to force themselves upon another no matter what the circumstances.



shesulsa said:


> How can people justify rejecting the notion of self-defense?



Lack of understanding.


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## Steve (Sep 24, 2014)

I think the word "AND" should be used a little more.  Women should be encouraged to learn self defense AND should be personally accountable AND rape is wrong AND I think the vast majority of men know it.

It's not an either/or situation.  Preparing for the worst isn't the same as expecting or condoning it.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 24, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> My daughter has a roommate who likes to party. Her teen years and young adult years are proving to be a long series of poor and dangerous choices. She has lucked out plenty of times. She likes to get wasted and or drunk to the point of mental oblivion or passing out. It worries me that my daughter will party with her but it seems she is making better choices than her roommate.
> 
> Saturday night and early Sunday morning, this girl whom I have known for 8 years was abducted and raped. She was very drunk and walked a very long distance from downtown to a suburb at 3 00 in the morning. She accepted a ride from a stranger which turned into strangers, and once they released her at 400 in the morning she was immediately abducted, forced drugs, and brutally raped.
> 
> ...



I don't know the circumstances of why your daughter has that room mate, but my first advice is find some way to get your daughter separated from her current room mate.  It is not a healthy situation.  Peer pressure from her room mate or her room mate's friends may eventually encourage your daughter to begin taking on risky behavior.  Probably not some drunken orgy to begin with, but little things at a time, such as partying with her room mate.  Once just going to parties is OK, something riskier may be enticing to try.

As to feminist groups denying the practice of MA or SD by women, because that is automatically blaming a potential victim, surprises me.  I think it is just the attitude of some who take the idea of 'rights' beyond reason.  Having 'rights' doesn't mean their aren't people who will try to deny people of their 'rights.'  The problem is that just because we think we should be able to feel safe, we cannot control the desires of everyone in the world.  If we could, we wouldn't need prisons, court systems, nor police.  But we don't want a forced thought control.  So we are left with evaluating all our actions against possible dangers.  Just as most of nature does.  There is no escaping the fact there are predators around us.  Do you know how they feel about men taking MA or SD?

There were never dragons out there, and not many tigers any more either, but other predators have moved into their place, and we have to be prepared to take actions for our own, and our family's defense.  That may mean not going where predators feel safe to attack, or being ready to defend oneself from them when they do attack.  Until we can tame predators (I don't suggest holding one's breath), that is just a fact of life.  I'm sorry there are feminists who advocate against MA and SD for women.  I think they are putting more women at risk.


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## Balrog (Sep 24, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> The fact that the act of rape is the fault of the offender does not change. But how do we say reducing risk is assigning blame to a potential victim? Isn't that like a willing smoker blaming the tobacco industry for not warning them of the dangers of smoking? Or the morbidly obese suing McDonalds or their favorite restaurant because they did not know they would get critically ill by eating only that food?
> 
> How can people justify rejecting the notion of self-defense?


IMNSHO - because they are stupid.

That may be a little harsh, but I tend to live in the real world, not in some socio-political utopia full of unicorns and rainbows.  People need to accept responsibility for their own lives, and one way of doing that is acknowledging that the world is not a safe place to live in.  As such, one should prepare as best as possible to live in that world, and that includes self-defense training, up to and including a CCW permit.


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## Danny T (Sep 24, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> My daughter has a roommate who likes to party. Her teen years and young adult years are proving to be a long series of poor and dangerous choices. She has lucked out plenty of times. She likes to get wasted and or drunk to the point of mental oblivion or passing out. It worries me that my daughter will party with her but it seems she is making better choices than her roommate.
> 
> Saturday night and early Sunday morning, this girl whom I have known for 8 years was abducted and raped. She was very drunk and walked a very long distance from downtown to a suburb at 3 00 in the morning. She accepted a ride from a stranger which turned into strangers, and once they released her at 400 in the morning she was immediately abducted, forced drugs, and brutally raped.
> 
> ...



It is the fault of the attacker/rapist. 
However, that does not relieve the victim of personal responsibility. Self-defense is about awareness; 'Knowing Something Could Happen' and 'Doing' what one can do to prevent it'.

To explain what I mean I'd like to use a couple of examples. 
1. I and my family do a lot of outside activities, hiking, scuba, camping, boating, fishing, hunting. If I were to take my family out into the woods 'knowing' there are bears in the area we are going camping, knowing there have been attacks on other campers, knowing there are warnings and we get attacked by bears who is at fault? The bears who are just doing what bears do or us for not heeding the warnings and knowledge of the bears being there; we are just wanting to do our thing.
2. I'm wanting to take the family out boating and scuba diving. It's a beautiful day, slight breeze it is going to be an awesome time. Seas are calm and off we go. Upon reaching our favorite diving area we find several boats fishing. (fresh baits in the water, chumming with bloody cut up bait) Sharks are abundant. We are just wanting to do our diving and go ahead we get attacked by some of the sharks. Where is the fault?

In both instances I put myself and my family in a higher risk category of attack and of course the violence that followed. Most will say that this different. No It Is Not! 'I' put myself at risk and it is My Fault.

In both instances I have put myself and family in a higher risk category of being attacked and of course the violence that comes with it.

There is always some risk is all aspects of life. There are predators of some type everywhere.

As  to '...teach men to not rape...'; Most men 'Know it is Wrong' and those that do it are  predators and are at fault. But does that relieve the person who  rejects the knowledge that walking alone at the early hours of the day drunk puts you at a much higher risk of being in a situation where great harm can come to her/him.

Sorry your friend had this done to her, sorry there are evil people who do such things, unfortunately she didn't care enough about herself to heed the warnings and put herself in a situation that the predators simply did what they do. They should not have happened, however... it did.


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## Buka (Sep 24, 2014)

I wish reading these things didn't upset me, I'm supposed to be a grizzled old man. But they still do upset me, and anger me some as well, in more ways than one.

Stumbling down the street drunk at 3 a.m. is worse than running into traffic blindfolded. There's no upside, just bad endings. For a woman, it's even worse than for a man. Way worse. And usually, the only ones driving around at that time of day are people going home, people who are trashed, people looking for trouble, and people hunting.

What you might want to watch for is how the young woman copes and behaves from here. If she repeats the same kind of behavior there might be far deeper issues involved.

Thank God your daughter is okay. Please keep an eye on her, this probably isn't going to be over for a long while.


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## K-man (Sep 24, 2014)

We had a lovely young lady called Jill Meagher. You can check her sad story out on the internet if you want. She left work, normal time and went out drinking with friends. She ended up at about 1.30am ready to go home. Her friends wanted her to catch a taxi but she decided to walk. She never made it home. 

Many lessons to be learned but we also had those (well meaning) who marched to call for safer streets etc. There will always be predators. We owe it to ourselves to take sensible precautions. 
:asian:


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## Carol (Sep 24, 2014)

Buka said:


> I wish reading these things didn't upset me, I'm supposed to be a grizzled old man. But they still do upset me, and anger me some as well, in more ways than one.
> 
> Stumbling down the street drunk at 3 a.m. is worse than running into traffic blindfolded. There's no upside, just bad endings. For a woman, it's even worse than for a man. Way worse. And usually, the only ones driving around at that time of day are people going home, people who are trashed, people looking for trouble, and people hunting.
> 
> ...



Or, different behaviour may be introduced, such as drug use.   Living with a drug user can bring a host of issues for Shesulsa's daughter.


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## Badger1777 (Sep 24, 2014)

At our club women and girls make up almost 50% of the members. If one of these feminists who say women shouldn't train were to walk into our club and say so, I suspect it would only be our club philosophy of not being the one that starts the fight that would stop said individual from being cracked in the face.

What planet are these people on? For decades, women have been campaign for, and slowly winning, the equal rights they deserve. Now some are trying to take away the right to train to defend themselves? That's just crazy. Personally I would find anyone making such claims mildly annoying, but I'd have to ignore them and moving on before getting really wound up.


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## donald1 (Sep 24, 2014)

Self Defense is necessary those movements should be quite about self defense some people are persist and potentially dangerous afcoarse self defense should be used if needed as a last resort. 
If the situation can be avoided then that should be applied first,  if she made more common since this might not have happened but regardless just because she did not make correct decisions does not make it right for them to do what they did


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 25, 2014)

A little something about taking resposibility.


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## Paul_D (Oct 1, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> But how do we say reducing risk is assigning blame to a potential victim?


It's baffling.  I remember a couple of years ago The Metropolitan Police, I think it was, ran a poster campaign warning women of the dangers they were putting themselves in by getting so drunk they either couldn't defend themselves or passed out and had no idea what was happening to them.  

Furious women groups accused the police of blaming women for being raped and in the end the posters had to be withdrawn.  

The burden of your own safety lies with you, the Police were trying to educate women that if they get so drunk they have no idea what is happening then they put themselves at greater risk, in the same way you put yourself at risk by accepting lifts off strangers, but no, women's groups had a knee jerk reaction, go the wrong end of the stick.  

The rapists probably couldn't believe their luck, women's groups preventing women from being educated about the need to be more aware of the dangers they can potentially put themselves in.  Baffling.


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## WaterGal (Oct 1, 2014)

arnisador said:


> What an awful situation.
> 
> The backlash against victim-blaming was not only well-intended but very much needed. But I have often thought the same: I teach defenses against knife attacks, but no one should be attacking a person with a knife. I teach defenses against being punched, but no one should be punching anyone. The extreme form of this line of thought effectively discourages people from taking sensible steps to stay safe in a world in which a frat has just been accused of a highly organized drink-drugging scheme. We can mix isn't your fault" with "There are bad actors out there and you don't want to be one o ftheir victims" in a sensible way.



Agreed, very much.  I do understand the backlash, but think that some people do go too far with it. 

It's important, I think, to emphasize that no matter what happens, if you're attacked, it's always the fault of the attacker - but that at the same time, there are things you can learn and practice to help you avoid or fight off that attacker.  If you make a bad choice, that doesn't mean you deserved it or it was your fault, any more than if somebody breaks into your house and kills you it was your fault or you deserved it for not locking your windows.  It's always the criminal's fault, and always a crime.  But there are ways to make it less likely that a criminal will attack you and to help you survive an attack, and they're good things to learn.


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## WaterGal (Oct 1, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Unless you said "it's a bad idea for a woman to get drunk, then wander unarmed through bad neighborhoods"; then, you're accused of victim blaming rather than recognizing that the victim's actions contributed to the situation.  There's a whole industry devoted to the idea that we should "teach men not to rape" rather than provide women with the tools to recognize bad situations and to avoid them.
> 
> Until we quiet that group, there will be too many people who decide to play in the land of slut walks and "I should be able to..."s, and they'll block and fight tooth and nail against any attempt to suggest that a victim might do something to reduce the chances of being raped.



Well, ideally, we should have both approaches.  It's important to change our culture, to make it very clear to young people (and older people, for that matter) what is and is not consent, and to make sure there are actually serious consequences for sexual assault/harassment/etc that are consistently enforced. 

We can say "women shouldn't walk down a dark street drunk in a bad neighborhood" till the cows come home.... but like you say, most rape is not a stranger jumping out at you from a dark alley.  Usually it's someone that you know, often someone you trust, often in your home, in all kinds of neighborhoods, at all hours.  So that advice, while it has a place, is also of limited value.  The most common rape scenario, IIRC, is your spouse/partner raping you in your home.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't teach self-defense, though.  That's important, too.  It does need to be reality-based, though, and take into account things like, for example, that you're not likely to be willing/able to gouge your husband or friend or boss or uncle's eye out even if he's hurting you.


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