# Hard core stick training



## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 23, 2005)

Hey everybody,lately Ive been seeing more and more ads for padded sticks.I personally hate the use of padded sticks because I feel they take away the respect one should have for the weapon.When people spar or train with padded sticks they do things that they would never do with a wooden stick.I like to use wiffle ball bats with NO gear whatsoever, because I feel if a student knows how bad it will feel to get smashed in the face they will act more cautious than wearing tons of gear or padded sticks.The central nervous system gets trained more effectively if the fear of getting hit is there.I realize this isnt for every casual student that walks in the school or kids, but for you advanced guys.To get totally hardcore on you, my student Vic and I give each other some pretty hard whacks on the hand and arms just to be able to keep going even tho you are in pain.What do you guys do? Barry  www.combatartsusa.com


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## John J (Mar 23, 2005)

There are so many ways to hone your skill in stickfighting. Regardless of whether you partake in Largo Mano unarmored style to WEKAF, Dog Brothers or padded sticks with no armor. As Ive always said, the criticism should be of the players not the venue. IMO...respecting the weapon is dependent on two things; the individual's ability or inability to manage fear and the instructors approach to training.     

Using wiffle ball bats without any sort of protection proves only that you and your partner are willing to take further risks to improve your game. I commend those who are willing to kick it up a notch. However, have you played the same way with padded sticks? Im not talking about the flexible commercial products like Actionflex but padded sticks made in the Philippines which have a rattan core. They can put a welt on you worse than the tournament sticks used in WEKAF.   



> To get totally hardcore on you, my student Vic and I give each other some pretty hard whacks on the hand and arms just to be able to keep going even tho you are in pain.



Care to clarify? It sounds like you are you saying you hit each other purposely before sparring to test your pain tolerance during sparring.  

I am an advocate of all venues of stick-fighting and have participated in all of the above including goggles and padded stick only. However, our standard sparring is done with padded sticks that have a rattan core, helmet (WEKAF or fencing mask), gloves and cup. 

Hard core stick training is great providing you do not compromise safety.

Yours in the Arts,

Guro John G. Jacobo
www.swacom.com


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 23, 2005)

Hey guys and Guro John, to answer your question yes me and my training partners like to whack each other around because I personaly like to stay sharp in terms of my mental training.In stick sparring you will almost never stop the fight in long range I believe you have to get in close and I am big on trapping and locking with the stick.Its hard to pull off but with practice you get used to it.Ive sparred with Largo Mano guys and due to my training I dont have the patience to stay out long.I like to crash in and inevitably you will get hit so I train to get hit.In terms of JKD attribute training wiffle ball bars whizzing by my face 100 mph keeps my empty hands very sharp and enables me to close in on boxers and do my thing.Like I said this isnt what I teach everybody that comes to me its just my personal training routine.I travel alot and teach people from many styles and its my way of staying sharp.BTW I just read Mark Wileys book on Kalis Illustrissimo and found it facinating, Barry  www.combatartsusa.com d


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 24, 2005)

John J said:
			
		

> Care to clarify? It sounds like you are you saying you hit each other purposely before sparring to test your pain tolerance during sparring.
> Guro John G. Jacobo
> www.swacom.com


No we don't just stand there hitting each other to test pain tolerance, if I understand your question. 

What Sifu Barry and I do is train without gear. We do hit each other, which is to be expected, but we push through it and keep going. 

I'm of the opinion that the more protection one employs the easier it is to develop bad habits. At least from what I've seen. I mentioned in another post how boxers tape up and wear gloves to train and fight in the ring and then break their hands the first time they have to crack a guy in the street (ala Mike Tyson and Mitch Green). 

The further away we get from actual street conditions the greater the risk of getting used to our safety measures. We fight how we train.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## arnisandyz (Mar 24, 2005)

Regardless if its with gear or without, hard stick or padded, I think the most important thing is to be honest with yourself and your partner. If my partner throws a really good solid shot (and if I imagine that was a blade or hardwood stick), would that have have ended the fight and my continuation?  In regards to bad habits, it goes both ways. I've seen people that use padded sticks and gear go all out and exchange shots that may have ended the fight. I've also seen rattan stick no gear matches where there is a reduction in weaponry like lighter sticks, a plastic bat in your case, in which case, bad habits could also develop.  Crashing in on a wiffle bat is not the same as crashing in on a kamagong stick or sword.  Bad habits could form if you get used to taking hits to the face in practice, then in real, the weapon isn't plastic but a lead pipe. 

The only REAL hardcore training would  be to use actual weaponry used in actual combat.  But you probably won't have many people willing to take it to that level.


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2005)

I use padded sticks with my training partners.  They are pipe foam around 3/4 inch nylon 6/6 rod.  Durable and they hit hard.  In sparring we use fencing masks and lacrosse gloves as armor.  Maybe this isn't "hardcore" enough for some, but I've got a knot on my head that happened from impact going through the fencing mask on Tuesday, much less what has happened to my arms and body.  These sticks hit hard enough to remind me what it would mean in reality and to keep me honest about my training.

Lamont


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 24, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> I use padded sticks with my training partners. They are pipe foam around 3/4 inch nylon 6/6 rod. Durable and they hit hard. In sparring we use fencing masks and lacrosse gloves as armor. Maybe this isn't "hardcore" enough for some, but I've got a knot on my head that happened from impact going through the fencing mask on Tuesday, much less what has happened to my arms and body. These sticks hit hard enough to remind me what it would mean in reality and to keep me honest about my training.
> 
> Lamont


To gear or not to gear, that is the question. Ultimately, like most things in the martial arts, I think it boils down to preference. I'm not against it, per se, as long as we keep in mind the purpose for what we're doing. 
It's true, Arnisandyz, that short of actually going full tilt with live weaponry and no protection we are at best simulating combat conditions. No matter how "hardcore" we think we are, we are "training" for combat, not actually fighting death matches. (Unless you're actually fighting death matches, in which case you know a lot more about it than I do.  )

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Blindside (Mar 24, 2005)

> I like to use wiffle ball bats with NO gear whatsoever, because I feel if a student knows how bad it will feel to get smashed in the face they will act more cautious than wearing tons of gear or padded sticks.



Barry or Vic,
So do you do thrusts to the face with the wiffleball bats?  Must leave some interesting marks.   I guess this is what I am most concerned with and why we use the fencing masks, the danger to the eyes seems pretty high.

Lamont


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 25, 2005)

Hey guys,interesting to say the least.Ive had my share of stitches and personaly I wouldnt have it any other way.This is what I chose to do for a living and I enjoy the bumps and bruises.Actually I have friends who are construction workers cops and firemen and  that get hurt much worse than me at their jobs.Thanks for all the great responses to this thread, Barry  www.combatartsusa.com


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 25, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> I use padded sticks with my training partners. They are pipe foam around 3/4 inch nylon 6/6 rod. Durable and they hit hard. In sparring we use fencing masks and lacrosse gloves as armor. Maybe this isn't "hardcore" enough for some, but I've got a knot on my head that happened from impact going through the fencing mask on Tuesday, much less what has happened to my arms and body. These sticks hit hard enough to remind me what it would mean in reality and to keep me honest about my training.
> 
> Lamont


 I tend to agree!  As long as I - and my instructors watching or sparring with me and others - are aware and honest of the strikes thrown, I prefer the gear.


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## DoxN4cer (Mar 25, 2005)

Back to the topic; I've always felt that a stick hickey leaves a lasting impression and reinforces lessons learned on the training floor. However, now that I'm older, I find that some of those whacks that I took and toughed it out are now some of those nagging aches and pains that I probably shouldn't have gotten for another 20 or 30 years. 

Safety is my biggest concern, but I dislike the false sense of security that armor creates. While I really enjoy going all out with a guy that can keep up; ultimately if one of us gets seriously hurt the fun ends... quickly.

I've tried various padded sticks (too much flex), wiffle ball bats (too light and bend with hard impact) and varoius types of armor (not enough "respect" for the impact). At this point in my training I find that the epitome of skill with the baston is to be able to go all out and still maintain enough control to tap your opponent with the tip of the stick hard enough to get him to acknowledge he's been hit without permanently hurting him. 

r/

Tim


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Mar 25, 2005)

Hello Guys,

Good discussion. Training up to full contact with no armor is a desirable way to train, but there are few who want to train continuously at that level. Hard padded sticks, action flex, Soft stx, and all the other varieties out there, have a place while a student is gaining the skills necessary to train at the higher level. Light weight rattan, and targeted sparring is also a lot of fun, less injuries, and lot's of welts but it does keep many things more honest.

Most people are worried about head shots and the like, so if they are not comfortable with it add some head protection and whack each other! There are some good video clips on the Sayoc Stick Grappling DVD of No holds barred, full contact stick fights (no pads), check it out.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## Logan Delizo (Mar 25, 2005)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'd say that's a little extreme.
> 
> I've tried various padded sticks (too much flex), wiffle ball bats (too light and bend with hard impact) and varoius types of armor (not enough "respect" for the impact). At this point in my training I find that the epitome of skill with the baston is to be able to go all out and still maintain enough control to tap your opponent with the tip of the stick hard enough to get him to acknowledge he's been hit without permanently hurting him.
> 
> ...


Tim,

I'm with you. Safety first. Remeber, the definition of training is to be able to execute a technique repetedly, improving after each session. You won't be able to do much of this if you're not concerned about safety. I also agree that most of the padded sticks out there are crap. Up until two weeks ago, we were using PVC, pipe foam, and good old duct tape to make sparring stiks. Although they didn't last long, they were stiff enough that you would deffinitly feel it if you got clocked, especially in the head. However, my training group recently purchased a couple of smakstiks. Although these sticks look like AF, they actally feel much better. Not whippy all. You can actually perform blocks and throws with them. And trust me, you'll definitly know if you get hit.

Heres a link to their site...they have some pretty kewl vids.

http://www.smakstiks.com

Train hard and safe,

Logan


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 26, 2005)

Mod Warning
Notice we have had to delete one of the posts in this thread and edit another that referred to the deleted post. 
Remember this forum is rated PG anything showing extreme violence is not PG

please continue with this threads discussion

Sheldon Bedell
MT mod


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## John J (Mar 28, 2005)

I understand why my post regarding Sayama and his unethical methods of teaching was deleted. True the image was quite graphic but nevertheless educational with regards to cultural differences in teaching and discipline. Had I started a Sayama thread on teaching methodologies, I'm sure it would have prompted some valuable insight.

Obviously, the intent was not to promote violence nor steer away from this topic.    

Yours in the Arts,

John G. Jacobo
www.swacom.com


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 28, 2005)

John J said:
			
		

> I understand why my post regarding Sayama and his unethical methods of teaching was deleted. True the image was quite graphic but nevertheless educational with regards to cultural differences in teaching and discipline. Had I started a Sayama thread on teaching methodologies, I'm sure it would have prompted some valuable insight.
> 
> Obviously, the intent was not to promote violence nor steer away from this topic.
> 
> ...


I would be interested in a discussion of different teaching methodologies, although sans the video.  Perhaps it is my "American" attitude, but I didn't see much teaching, rather whacking non-weapon-holding students with a stick.   

But this is a small thread gank.


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 28, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I would be interested in a discussion of different teaching methodologies, although sans the video. Perhaps it is my "American" attitude, but I didn't see much teaching, rather whacking non-weapon-holding students with a stick.
> 
> But this is a small thread gank.


So what's wrong with wackin' yer students around? (kidding) :uhyeah:

Reminds me of a scene from "Unforgiven":

Gene Hackman: You cowardly son of a b**ch. You just shot an unarmed man!

Clint Eastwood: Well he should've armed himself.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## John J (Mar 29, 2005)

Hi Vic,

Sorry for the confusion. My understanding with Sifu Barrys comment was that you guys will strike each other a few times _before_ getting into the actual sparring to test your ability to continue fighting while in pain _not_ that you just stand there and exchange to test pain tolerance. Sounds funny yes, but there are some people who smack themselves a few times before sparring to get psyched up! I've been known to do this as well...what can I say  :idunno:  



> What Sifu Barry and I do is train without gear. We do hit each other, which is to be expected, but we push through it and keep going.
> 
> I'm of the opinion that the more protection one employs the easier it is to develop bad habits. At least from what I've seen. I mentioned in another post how boxers tape up and wear gloves to train and fight in the ring and then break their hands the first time they have to crack a guy in the street (ala Mike Tyson and Mitch Green).
> 
> The further away we get from actual street conditions the greater the risk of getting used to our safety measures. We fight how we train.



Not sure if I would agree with you with the boxing example because it is a very competitive sport with monetary rewards once you've moved up in rank. The purpose of the gloves is to protect the hands to simply compete again and to prevent serious injury to your opponent. Bone breaks on bone, its that simple! The break is not a result of their training or lack of proper training. The purpose of our protective gear is dictated more so because of the nature of our art, a weapon based system. Providing the mindset and approach is realistic then I find benefits from all types of sparring.         

I understand and agree with the less gear no gear approach including the bad habits often demonstrated by those less experienced in full-contact. Again, it is all dependent on each individual. However, some would say that the wiffle bat approach even without gear is less hardcore than padded or light sticks with headgear. Dont get me wrong, I am sure the tip of the bat where most of the weight is would not feel good across the lip or against the ear but on body mass even limbs, may not have the same affect. So, what are your thoughts and experience with gear or at least minimal gear, say helmet only or Dog Brother style with a heavy stick? 

Safety measures are not limited to protective gear. Safety also falls under awareness, evasive tactics, reaction, timing, mobility etc. These types of safety measures I can get used to. 

Thanks for your added comments. 

John J
www.swacom.com


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## Nanalo74 (Mar 29, 2005)

Hey John,

As I said earlier, the decision to wear some type of gear and how much is a matter of preference and varies from martial artist to martial artist. The point I was trying to make is to be careful not to cultivate bad habits in your training by becoming overly comfortable in the safety of the gym/studio. We have to develop safety measures in order to survive the training, no doubt. Let's just keep in mind why we're training. 

I have seen boxers take a shot to the chin in order to deliver a counterblow and win the fight. They develop habits based on their environment. Do you think Muhammad Ali would have tried the rope-a-dope if George Foreman wasn't wearing gloves? And the gloves they wear today have even more padding than back then!

How many times have I watched guys knife spar with rubber knifes and helmets and just slash away at each other? It's not real to them. What about the stickfighting tournaments (gear and padded sticks) where a guy will take a shot to the helmet and pin it there with his empty hand so he can wack away at his opponent. 

I'm not talking about the Dog Brothers style. That's another animal. Those guys respect the weapon and make sure anyone who dares step up respects it as well. 

And isn't that the point? If one is training for the ring, then I understand not concerning one's self with real life combat scenarios. But if one is training for the street, they'd damn well better learn the difference. 

BTW, thank you for your input as well. I enjoy these discussions. 

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (Mar 30, 2005)

Hey everybody and John, I like wiffle ball bats because I can go hard and not get killed.I fought Dog Bros style in LA in the 80s and have broken almost every bone in my right hand and my right thumb.I like the contact but at my age [41] I cant handle anymore broken fingers.Getting hit in the face with a wiffle ball bat hurts but aint to bad.I still have a scar inside my lower lip from getting hit in the face with a rattan stick in the 90s.Take care, Barry  www.combatartsusa.com


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## John J (Mar 30, 2005)

> I like the contact but at my age [41] I cant handle anymore broken fingers.Getting hit in the face with a wiffle ball bat hurts but aint to bad.



Hey Barry,

Yeah...I can attest to that. I'm rounding 40 and everything in my body already seems to be cracking. It's great to see your enthusiasm and warrior spirit lives on. I enjoy the adrenalin and contact very much. And as an instructor, it is essential to take part in the sparring and rigorous training that we put our students through. It keeps me on my feet! 

BTW... I remember back in the day you were in Staten Island. Did you close the school to teach in Manhattan?

Yours in the Arts,
John J
www.swacom.com


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## Andrew Evans (Apr 2, 2005)

John J said:
			
		

> Im not talking about the flexible commercial products like Actionflex but padded sticks made in the Philippines which have a rattan core. They can put a welt on you worse than the tournament sticks used in WEKAF.


I also like the padded sticks made in the Philippines with a rattan core. BTW, I recently found an affordable supplier at http://www.dragonswaytrading.com/products.asp?cat=4 (let me know if you find a better price).

Thanks!


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## Cthulhu (Apr 3, 2005)

I recently got a Smak Stick (www.smak-stiks.com) and have been very pleased with it so far.  The stick handles very well, is suitably padded, yet you know when you've been hit by it.  For many people, protective gear is probably still a good idea.  

 I don't know what the inner core is, but it's thin, flexible, and durable.  The tip of the stick is padded well, making thrusts effective, and relatively safe (of course watching out for the eyes...goggles = good idea).  I paid for the padded punyo, but it won't really lessen the impact of a punyo strike, as the padding is fairly minimal.  It is good protection against accidental/incendtal shots and scrapes.

 The smak-stick web site has a durabilty video clip of a guy whacking a tree and wooden bench.  I did the same, but also gave a concrete-filled steel pole several hard shots.  The only 'damage' was the yellow paint rubbing off onto my Smak Stik.  Not one popped thread on the stitching or sign of any wear on the covering.  Hopefully, we'll get enough people in our club interested for a big order.

 Cthulhu


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## kroh (Apr 6, 2005)

Hey there...I am really enjoying this discussion.

We use some of the padded sticks at the school where I train (The above pic was taken after a shot to my hand forced me to relinquish my knife).  We have tried them all from Action Flex (which I thought were really good) to sof-stx ( which are good on first blush but the covering has a tendancy to rip after a couple of severe matches.)  All in all the padded weaponry have done really well with us and some of the seniors have put on a really good show ( there was the time my fiance' batted some poor schmoe in the dome...he had to sit down for a minute to recover himself in order to see straight again).  Some of this training gear is very good allowing us to ellevate the training to a harder level without haveing those costly medical bills.  I have tried some matches a la dog bros and although I had a blast (HUGE hockey gloves and hockey helmets and ear pluggs...for god sake the pluggs!) my training partners were not anxious to repeat the experience 

Wearing no armor (except for eyeware and some light gloves) and allowing the students to smack it "out of the park" if they want to with the training weapons will leave welts and bruises that will last a day or two.  They are very forgiving for the newer students and allow the seniors to go a bit more intense.  

In some of the Japanese martial arts I use to do we would sometimes use real shinai sticks ( a sereis of bamboo or rattan reeds tied together and covered with a leather bag...) and that was not as forgiving as the foam jobs.  When those things smacked into you at full speed one had a tendancy yelp like a school girl ( This was in no way meant to offend any schoolgirls out there who can really fight... :idunno: )

I have not tried the whiffle ball bat but they seem kind of large...more sword length thant the standard 28-30 inch length that we are used to.  

Thanks
regards, 
Walt


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