# Jump Front Kick Without the Fake



## Lynne (Jul 20, 2007)

The jump front kick was the first kick I learned during my first class.

I'll be learning the jump front kick without the fake soon (I have to master it for my 8th gup).

I've only seen higher ranks do it a few times and it looks tricky.  Am I right in assuming:  1) you start off in a front stance with the kicking leg back, 2) that you jump into the air bringing both legs off the floor at the same time, 3) and you kick with the rear leg while the other leg is in the air???

I'm wondering how you get off the ground.  Do you bend both legs before you go into the air?

Any tips? Ideas?  Videos?


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## shesulsa (Jul 21, 2007)

It sounds like you're describing a jumping reverse front kick.

You should really get a lot of attention from your teachers for this kick.

There are tricks to jumping high, which you'll need to start working on right away, but here's what *I* try to do and/or teach:

1.  Jump straight up and pull your heels up under your buttocks, bending your knees, of course.  

2.  Your non-kicking leg will remain there as you extend the kicking leg at the highest point of the jump - you should reach the top of your jump and finish extending your leg at the same moment.

3.  Retract the leg, tucking your heel back under your buttocks, and extend your legs towards the ground to land.


*Remember* all good kicks come from the hips - don't snap your knee to full extension as you *will* damage your knee (if not in one fell swoop, over a course of time).

Enjoy.  And if you experience pain from doing these, you may want to consult with a physical therapist who is experienced with martial arts.


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## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2007)

I learnt both this kicks in Wado they were part of my second grading, the one you describe we know as as a jumping front kick the other you described as having the fake is called jumping scissors kick, which I actually found a bit more energetic to do! We had some smarty pants who could do a double front kick, kicking a pad with each foot!


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 21, 2007)

Yeah, that does sound more like a switch jump front kick to me. 

Did they really start you off with jump kicks? Or did you mean your first kick *after* regular kicks?


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## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2007)

I was taught 'kicks' more oftless at the same time, all the kicks we do are taught off the front leg as well as the back leg, we did front snap kick, jump front kick, jumping scissors front kick, roundhouse, jump roundhouse, side and jumping side, crescent, axe, inverted crescent kick, back kick, hook kick, spinning crescent, spinning hook, jumping spinning back and hookm there are also hopping and sliding variations on most of these kicks too. If you were grading you of course concentrate on the kicks for that but the sooner you start these kicks the longer it gives you to get them right.
We had three to four months before we graded for our first belt and up to orange belt we had at least four months between gradings more if you felt you weren't ready. it was up to us to decide when we felt ready to grade, then we'd discuss it with the instructor and he'd either agree or disagree.We also as we do in my present club start sparring from day one, this is with the senior grades and gets you used to the idea of strikuing and being struck. Sometimes this is a big hurdle for people to get over and we don't believe waiting until one's a certain grade helps.


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## Lynne (Jul 21, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> It sounds like you're describing a jumping reverse front kick.
> 
> You should really get a lot of attention from your teachers for this kick.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the description and advice about not fully extending the knee.  Not fully extending the knee wouldn't be "common sense" to me at this point in my training.

This should be a challenge.  I get to learn jump side kicks, too.


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## Lynne (Jul 21, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I learnt both this kicks in Wado they were part of my second grading, the one you describe we know as as a jumping front kick the other you described as having the fake is called jumping scissors kick, which I actually found a bit more energetic to do! We had some smarty pants who could do a double front kick, kicking a pad with each foot!


Double jump front kick with alternate legs?  Sheesh!


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## Lynne (Jul 21, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Yeah, that does sound more like a switch jump front kick to me.
> 
> Did they really start you off with jump kicks? Or did you mean your first kick *after* regular kicks?


In our class we start with e dan ahp chagi, then learn ahp chagi, then dullryo chagi.  

The other night, we had someone trying out.  The trial student, white and yellow belts were together.  We partnered up and exchanged e dan ahp chagis, 10 per set, each leg, for three sets.  The trial student was starting to get the hang of it after the second set though she was about to die from exertion.  (Then we did 600 wall kicks.)

I learned e dan ahp chagi first as well.  The Dojang "rumor" is that it's easier to learn jump front kicks than regular front kicks.  I don't know about that.  For me, it took a lot of practice to learn to bring the knee straight up and not flick it out when jumping - just to control the moves and do it gracefully.


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## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Double jump front kick with alternate legs? Sheesh!


 

I know! It's actually a theatrical kick, I don't think you could use it in a fight or even sparring.(waits for someone to post up they have used it to knock two guys out lol) It's easy to do if you can do gymnastic/dance type stuff. You jump up and extend both legs at the same time with a person holding pads at each side of you, you don't have to do it with alternate legs. Having said that we had an instructor who used to be a ballet dancer and he could get enough height on his kicks that he could do two front kicks on one jump! His flying sidekick was something to behold!

I'll admit that I find TSD more restrictive on kicks, with all kicks off back leg and no hopping,sliding kicks which are so useful when sparring.


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## Yossarian (Jul 21, 2007)

We call this kick Dea oh AhpChagi(not sure about spelling), can be quite powerfull too. Make sure you dont bend your knees to much before you jump as your opponent will see it coming. Concentrate on getting your hips round while your in the air. I imagine youll soon learn the round house version of this too.



> I'll admit that I find TSD more restrictive on kicks, with all kicks off back leg and no hopping,sliding kicks which are so useful when sparring.



Really? that sounds quite unusual, weve always done a lot of front leg hopping, sliding etc.


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## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2007)

Yossarian said:


> We call this kick Dea oh AhpChagi(not sure about spelling), can be quite powerfull too. Make sure you dont bend your knees to much before you jump as your opponent will see it coming. Concentrate on getting your hips round while your in the air. I imagine youll soon learn the round house version of this too.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? that sounds quite unusual, weve always done a lot of front leg hopping, sliding etc.


 
In the TSD we do all kicks come off the back leg hence no hopping or sliding fronts kicks off the front leg. I teach them anyway though lol, they just aren't in the grading syllabus.


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## Lynne (Jul 21, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I know! It's actually a theatrical kick, I don't think you could use it in a fight or even sparring.(waits for someone to post up they have used it to knock two guys out lol) It's easy to do if you can do gymnastic/dance type stuff. You jump up and extend both legs at the same time with a person holding pads at each side of you, you don't have to do it with alternate legs. Having said that we had an instructor who used to be a ballet dancer and he could get enough height on his kicks that he could do two front kicks on one jump! His flying sidekick was something to behold!
> 
> I'll admit that I find TSD more restrictive on kicks, with all kicks off back leg and no hopping,sliding kicks which are so useful when sparring.


 
I'm not one of those flexible gymnastics/dance type people.

We had a new white belt girl the other night.  We had to do roundhouse kicks in slow motion - 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down.  This new girl, who had never done a roundhouse kick before (I asked her), extended her leg over her head with so much balance it was unbelievable.  I thought, "She must be a ballerina!"  I asked later and she said she was a dancer.  

My leg doesn't even go to my hip yet


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## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2007)

Lynne said:


> I'm not one of those flexible gymnastics/dance type people.
> 
> We had a new white belt girl the other night. We had to do roundhouse kicks in slow motion - 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down. This new girl, who had never done a roundhouse kick before (I asked her), extended her leg over her head with so much balance it was unbelievable. I thought, "She must be a ballerina!" I asked later and she said she was a dancer.
> 
> My leg doesn't even go to my hip yet


 

Ah but was there any power in her kick? I can't do high kicks but my low kicks are strong. One of the reasons we tend to stick to low kicks in MMA is that it's much harder to catch the leg and take them down. I was taught oringinally that the heigh really didn't matter too much as long as I had the technique. My roundhouse at it's highest is hip height at it's best it's thigh height so don't look at the dancer and think she's got the better kick!


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## Lynne (Jul 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but was there any power in her kick? I can't do high kicks but my low kicks are strong. One of the reasons we tend to stick to low kicks in MMA is that it's much harder to catch the leg and take them down. I was taught oringinally that the heigh really didn't matter too much as long as I had the technique. My roundhouse at it's highest is hip height at it's best it's thigh height so don't look at the dancer and think she's got the better kick!


Good point.  I do have a powerful kick


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 23, 2007)

Yeah, starting with a jump kick is a bit weird, in my not-so-humble opinion, but go with what your instructor says.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2007)

Lynne said:


> The jump front kick was the first kick I learned during my first class.
> 
> I'll be learning the jump front kick without the fake soon (I have to master it for my 8th gup).
> 
> ...


If you have your legs properly bent in the first place there should be no prep. Just jump, tuck, and kick. Anything you do in preparation will telegraph your intentions for people sparring or fighting you.


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## DArnold (Jul 24, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Yeah, starting with a jump kick is a bit weird, in my not-so-humble opinion, but go with what your instructor says.


 
My thoughs exactly as most people can't understand how to do a basic front kick on the ground without hitting a heavy bag.

Starting with jump kicking seems a bit odd. Most just flip up their foot for height because it looks gook, with a trajectory that would not even scratch an opponent. (not knowing that the basis of the kick is in the movement of the knee)

So understanding this (adding more variables) while in the air is even more complicated when your main worry is if you have your landing gear down..


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 24, 2007)

DArnold said:


> My thoughs exactly as most people can't understand how to do a basic front kick on the ground without hitting a heavy bag.
> 
> Starting with jump kicking seems a bit odd. Most just flip up their foot for height because it looks gook, with a trajectory that would not even scratch an opponent. (not knowing that the basis of the kick is in the movement of the knee)
> 
> So understanding this (adding more variables) while in the air is even more complicated when your main worry is if you have your landing gear down..


I don't know... The Jump kick has one base and a kick from the ground has two. Technicly the jump kick is easier to grasp and if she is taught correctly, its easier to pull off.
Sean


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 24, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I don't know... The Jump kick has one base and a kick from the ground has two. Technicly the jump kick is easier to grasp and if she is taught correctly, its easier to pull off.
> Sean



Technicalities. You still have to learn how to stand before you can learn how to fly. A jump front kick is just a front kick in the air. If you don't know how to do a regular front kick properly, you won't be able to do a jump front kick properly either.


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## Lynne (Jul 25, 2007)

The first lesson, we were introduced to edan ahp chagi.  The second lesson, we did lots and lots of drills (doing edan ahp chagis all four directions, then bouncing sideways, turning, and doing them all four directions).  During the third lesson, we learned ahp chagi.  The instructor corrected me on my footwork and legwork because I was flicking my foot and leg.  Probably what helped the most was kicking the Wavemasters in a later lesson. Also, we did them in slow motion which really helped to break down the kick.   I would still have a tendency to flick out my foot and not bring my knee straight up when doing edan ahp chagis though.

By my 6th week or so, I had mastered both kicks.  I did much better with edan ahp chagi when I was told to lean into the kicking leg - kind of leaning forward a bit.  It really makes the kicking leg "pop" out.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 25, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Technicalities. You still have to learn how to stand before you can learn how to fly. A jump front kick is just a front kick in the air. If you don't know how to do a regular front kick properly, you won't be able to do a jump front kick properly either.


Its going to take her years and years to do a front kick off the ground well. A jump kick takes away all the launching, pulling, and balancing she would have to do with the base leg. 
Sean


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## DArnold (Jul 25, 2007)

Lynne said:


> The first lesson, we were introduced to edan ahp chagi. The second lesson, we did lots and lots of drills (doing edan ahp chagis all four directions, then bouncing sideways, turning, and doing them all four directions). During the third lesson, we learned ahp chagi. The instructor corrected me on my footwork and legwork because I was flicking my foot and leg. Probably what helped the most was kicking the Wavemasters in a later lesson. Also, we did them in slow motion which really helped to break down the kick. I would still have a tendency to flick out my foot and not bring my knee straight up when doing edan ahp chagis though.
> 
> By my 6th week or so, I had mastered both kicks. I did much better with edan ahp chagi when I was told to lean into the kicking leg - kind of leaning forward a bit. It really makes the kicking leg "pop" out.


 

doubt if you had mastered it but your on your way 
Go show your instructor and ask if they think you've mastered it!


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## Sukerkin (Jul 25, 2007)

An interesting perspective that jumping kicks are actually easier.  I've not heard that one before but can perhaps see the background logic :tup:.

All I have to say on the issue would not be relevant because my style differed (I use the past tense because I'm a sword-slinger these days ).  Jumping kicks (or even 'high' ones) were considered no-go in an actual combat environment because of an adverse pay-off-to-risk bottom-line.  

I've seen quite a few threads of late that suggest modern thought differs on this matter - I guess I suffer from having being taught the old-fashioned way :blush:.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jul 26, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Its going to take her years and years to do a front kick off the ground well. A jump kick takes away all the launching, pulling, and balancing she would have to do with the base leg.
> Sean



To master the kick, yeah. To do it well, no. But it takes a while to get good at _any_ kick. If you judge your skill by how many techniques you can half-perform, then you're misjudging yourself. The gup levels, and especially the white belt level, are all about building the basics. Learning ahp chagi is fundamental to learning Tang Soo Do, because it requires so many important things: control, balance, power from the hip, and bringing up the knee. Once you get all those things, you have the base for all kicks, no matter how complex. 

And think about it this way: which is going to be more useful, a half-flailed jump kick that has no speed and leaves you open to any attack, or a kick that is inherently faster and leaves you less open? 

Again, Lynne, I'm not trying to say your school is wrong, horrible, or that you shouldn't listen to your instructor. I'm just saying that's not the way I'd teach it if I were an instructor.


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## stevek (Jul 28, 2007)

It always amazes me to see the differences between styles, and yes this is supposed to be all Tang Soo Do to boot! Thats not bad- just amazing!

Reading through the comments I felt like adding a couple things.

1) Even a bird learns to walk before they fly- at least in the nest. Without the basic motions and balance of doing ground kicks, its hard to believe there is any newbe learning jumpkicks first. Not that the kick is that hard, but its less basic. I know this isnt what the thread is actually about. (I'll get to that in a second) But I believe in progressive learning. Front, Round, Side are our white belt kicks. I learned from some of my early instructors, that when teaching mixed belts I have three options, I can have them repeat these three kicks as I move on for other students, I can have the beginner sit an watch, or I can add one or two orange belt kicks for the w.b. as a primer. Since class is short enough and I want to keep the students interst, I opt for the third option. For this, if the student is ready, I do add Jump front kick for a white belt. But ony if they are grasping the three basics first.
2) Anyone that says Jump Kicks are not effective or practical needs to practice their jumpkicks more. Ofcourse this is comming from someone who loves them. but I've used every kick I've ever been taught (and thats a lot of them) in free sparing. This includes Jump spin kicks as well as straight jump kicks, as well as both front and back leg kicks. I just read a Bruce lee quote that said- I dont fear the man who practices 10,000 kicks but someone who practices one kick 10,000 times. This sounds contradictory to the first part of my statement , but the point is to practice and you'll be good. That goes for any thing. So I propose take your 5 or 10 or 20 kicks and practice them each 10,000 times. I could tell you stories of how practice became instict which gave me the edge to instantly react to an opponent and sometimes that ment being able to throw an advanced kick with ease in the heat of the battle - sometimes that means hold back a kick and switching up mid stream. Practice of combinations and foot work allows for advanced kicks to be used. As I step down from one kick, I land in a prep postion for the next kick- which means knees bent. This isnt telegraphing because I am in motion from the previous technique and can throw any number of kicks from that position.

Now to the Kick-
1) We teach Front kick from both the front and back leg, we teach jump front kick from both the front back leg and we teach both of these with and without a pumping leg. So for front kick we have 5-6 variations. (not counting pi chagi (which is sometimes refered to as an inverted front))
2) as somone noted a proper fighting stance should have knees bent- however a little extra knee bend isnt the end of the world- espectially if you do the kick in combination and not off the line when sparing. So telling somone not to bend their knees is not help full. One of my teachers says, if your jump kick is not higher than your ground kick, then you are not jumping enough. Ofcourse the jump adds momentum and force to the attack- if done right- so height isnt the only posible advantage to the jump motion. I highly recomend a good knee bend so you can learn to spring off your feet. As you perfect the springing motion, try to work on eliminating any telegraphing (by concealing/eliminating the extra knee bend) First you need to break down the kick to do it right, then perfect and make more efficient.

To Practice - (First the Jump)- from fighting stance, bend knees a bit more, then work on springing up off your toes. So the full springing motion starts with both knees bent slightly and finishes where you are rolling up onto your toes (balls of feet) as your knees are extending. This motion should be a great base to sping from. It should be a continuous motion, all the way to the tucking of your knees. I like to teach to focus on bringing your knees as high as you can, then to tuck your feet. Concentration on the knees helps for height. When someone has trouble with this I have them just work on this jump- S0- First do this straight up and down, to practice the jump bringing the knees as high as possible. And land straight down.

After this is comfortable, add the hip/foot switch- w/o the kick so you end up with your opposite foot forward (jump, twist hip, land). 

Now do the full kick. At the top of your jump, you are in the process of twisting the hip, then extend the kick. If you do the jump with a focus on bringing the knees high, then you can more easily kick (in my oppinion) while still in the air.

Many people dont focus on a proper jump and they end up landing with or before the kick. which make is an odd hop kick, since they are not in the air when the are executing the kick.

Good luck.


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

DArnold said:


> doubt if you had mastered it but your on your way
> Go show your instructor and ask if they think you've mastered it!


Touche!  Ummm...mastered the basics.  I'm sure the kick will look much different in four years. Well, it better!


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> To master the kick, yeah. To do it well, no. But it takes a while to get good at _any_ kick. If you judge your skill by how many techniques you can half-perform, then you're misjudging yourself. The gup levels, and especially the white belt level, are all about building the basics. Learning ahp chagi is fundamental to learning Tang Soo Do, because it requires so many important things: control, balance, power from the hip, and bringing up the knee. Once you get all those things, you have the base for all kicks, no matter how complex.
> 
> And think about it this way: which is going to be more useful, a half-flailed jump kick that has no speed and leaves you open to any attack, or a kick that is inherently faster and leaves you less open?
> 
> Again, Lynne, I'm not trying to say your school is wrong, horrible, or that you shouldn't listen to your instructor. I'm just saying that's not the way I'd teach it if I were an instructor.


I had to running jump sidekicks during my trial class because that's what the rest of the class was doing.  I wasn't doing jump sidekicks, I guarantee you that.

Often, I think what we do is based on the curriculum for the week.  Lower belts sometimes work on higher level stuff.  But we always learn the jump front kick first.  Now, I'm thinking about asking why.


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## Lynne (Jul 28, 2007)

stevek said:


> It always amazes me to see the differences between styles, and yes this is supposed to be all Tang Soo Do to boot! Thats not bad- just amazing!
> 
> Reading through the comments I felt like adding a couple things.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your perspective and instruction.  I'll practice the jumping up and down, too

It sure is an awkward kick.  I look like a three-legged horse right now


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