# Where are the techniques?



## Dominic82555 (Apr 28, 2019)

Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc.  smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy?  Thank you


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc.  smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy?  Thank you



Because pressure fighting vs pressure fighting is quite often a game of who has the best cardio and who has the toughest chin.

Trapping is almost to be used for rangey attacks. Or if they shell up.

The idea that from inside the pocket you will even see a punch coming is overly ambitious.
Trying to block and strike a guy who is striking and striking you back. Is overly ambitious.











So generally the issue is they are attacking without all the tools needed to make their system work. And the whole thing falls to crap.

So hand trapping works provided the punch you are dealing with is either slow or predictable. But you have to create those circumstances.


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## Danny T (Apr 28, 2019)

In the reality of a fight trapping is the byproduct of striking when in close. Not trapping as a primary action.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 28, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Where's the defense, where's the strategy?


If you put your arms in your center between you and your opponent, your opponent's straight punch has to go through your hand, go through your arm, before it can meet your face. This will eliminate your opponent's straight punch possibility. Your opponent can only use circular punch to go around your arm. This can simplify the striking game into 1/2. You only have to worry about your opponent's hook punch. You don't have to worry about his jab and cross. When your opponent throws hook punch at you, his face will be exposed for your straight punch.

Since your hands are far away from your head and close to your opponent's head (the major difference between the WC guard and the boxing guard), This will give you more space. This also will give your opponent less space. Old Chinese saying said, "It's always better to fight in your opponent's territory than to fight in your own territory."


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## Dominic82555 (Apr 28, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sao, bong sao, trapping etc.  smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy?  Thank you





Dominic82555 said:


> Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc.  smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy?  Thank you


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## Dominic82555 (Apr 28, 2019)

Thanks so much 4 the 411.


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## Dominic82555 (Apr 28, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Thanks so much 4 the 411.





Danny T said:


> In the reality of a fight trapping is the byproduct of striking when in close. Not trapping as a primary action.


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## Dominic82555 (Apr 28, 2019)

Excuse the mispelled words lap and bong sao.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 29, 2019)

If we look at this WC guard (many CMA style use this guard too),

- His left arm is extended but his right arm is not. His right hand is next to his left elbow joint.
- His left hand has less distance to generate punching power. His right hand has more distance to generate punching power.
- Both of his hands are away from his head.
- His "front door" is protected well, but his both "side doors" are exposed.
- He can interrupt his opponent's punch away from his head.
- He uses "protect center from inside out" strategy.







If we look at this boxing guard,

- His both arms are close to his head.
- Both of his hands have enough distance to generate punching power.
- His "front door" is exposed. Bust both of his "side doors" are protected well.
- He need to interrupt his opponent's punch near to his head.
- He uses "protect center from outside in" strategy.






Since the

- WC guard can protect front door well, but can't protect side doors well (hook punch can still go around the WC guard),
- Boxing guard can protect side doors well, but can't protect front door well (straight punch can still go through between the boxing guard),

Is there a "guard" that can have the PRO of both guards, but doesn't have the CON of both guards? The rhino guard that you hold both hands into a big fist, extend both arms, and hide your head behind can be the choice. The only issue with the rhino guard is it's good for establishing clinch. It's not good for striking. Unless you are a wrestler, the rhino guard may help you in defense, but it may no help you in offense (if you are a pure striker).


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## Highlander (Apr 29, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Why is it that WC is applied between 2 combatants esp WC. All you see is basically a head on clash and chain punches. Where's the lap sap, bong sap, trapping etc.  smh What it really looks like is 2 combatants trying to get as many blows as possible no matter how. Funny, both seems to be catching as many blows as thrown. Where's the defense, where's the strategy?  Thank you



Alot of people misinterpreted what the bong, tan, pak, etc are in wt. People tend to see them as fix positions that you block with. In reality they are verbs, let's look at just tan sao. Alot of non wt ,and even wt, people think tan as the palm up elbow bent at the 135° position. Its actually just the act of dispersing your opponents energy. That position is just a very effective way of doing so, but you can do a tan with your arm in any position. 
Another misinterpreted thing about wt is the attack and defense at the same time. People take this to mean you disperse (tan) with one hand and punch with the other. But the highest form of this is dispersing the attack and hitting with the same arm.
ANOTHER (ugh I'm boring myself at this point) misconception is the idea of fix points. You'll never do a tan dar and freeze in that position, you'll flow through it and most likely never even see the structure of the "block". 
The reason you see people just punching and getting hit in so many videos is because there is so much bad wt out there. Just like every other system the bad ugly practitioners seem to out weight the good ones. People either lack practice, understanding, or both. It could also be a lack of understanding the drill you're watching. My sifu actually use to have us run that same drill when I was starting out. Chain punch vs chain punch, just to build endurance and get use to getting hit

A great person to YouTube for all of these concepts would be Emin Boztepe.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> Alot of people misinterpreted what the bong, tan, pak, etc are in wt.


The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.

For example,

- Boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Judo has hip throw, foot sweep, single leg, double legs, ...
- Eagle claw has finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- ...

Most MA systems use offense skill to describe the system.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...


While that's true, I think a lot of what we recognize about some systems is their defensive approach. The super-short description tends to be a very limited view of the art, leaving out very important aspects.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> While that's true, I think a lot of what we recognize about some systems is their defensive approach. The super-short description tends to be a very limited view of the art, leaving out very important aspects.


You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight.

I just came back from Houston for the 2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition last Sunday. In that tournament, I had met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use to end a fight?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. The Taiji system also talk about yield, stick, follow, sink, soft, .... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.


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## yak sao (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight....
> .... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.



You are generalizing about WC, which may be true with some lineages, but you are in no way describing any WT that I've ever trained.
WT is a very offensive method. The tan, bong, etc. are not blocks. They are attacks that have gone out and met an opposing force and were deformed into these shapes while the other hand, or our feet are continuing with the attack.
Then there are certain other "active" techniques that are used such as pak sau and jut sau that are used, again, not as blocks, but to clear the way for an attack.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't solve your problem by just blocking your opponent's punch. Soon or later you have to punch back to end a fight.
> 
> I just came back from Houston for the 2019 World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition last Sunday. In that tournament, I had met many Taiji teachers there. During the general CMA discussion, I asked my favor question, "Which Taiji technique will you use to end a fight?" I didn't get a solid answer for my question. The Taiji system also talk about yield, stick, follow, sink, soft, .... They also don't want to talk about punch, kick, lock, throw that exist in their system.


What has any of that to do with the fact that defense is an integral part of every system? All of them.


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch). IMO, it doesn't make sense to use defense skill to describe a MA style.
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...


Boxing-Footwork and head movement and standard guards.
TKD- Olgul Makki
Judo-Harai-uke
Eagle Claw- cross block

If someone asked me to describe WT it would be as a close style Chinese boxing art. Not as tan sao. I agree it makes no sense to describe a MA as its defensive techniques. But every art has them. And this particular question was related to them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What has any of that to do with the fact that defense is an integral part of every system? All of them.


- Wrestling is known for single leg and not for arm guide.
- Judo is known for leg lift (Uchi Mata) and not for ride on.
- ...


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch).


This is the exact misinterpretation I'm referring to in my post actually. This is just my belief for my own personal WT however. Everyone has their own way of applying it


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> This is the exact misinterpretation I'm referring to in my post actually. This is just my belief for my own personal WT however. Everyone has their own way of applying it


How will you use Fu Shou to hurt your opponent?


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How will you use Fu Shou to hurt your opponent?


That's the other one I hit. Fook sao isn't a structure it's a verb. "To control from on top." So punching over someone's arm to hit them while keep a low heavy elbow to keep their arm pinned is fook (fu) sao.


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How will you use Fu Shou to hurt your opponent?


How to you post pictures in a response like that. Tried to do it for my original response and couldn't quite figure it out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> That's the other one I hit. Fook sao isn't a structure it's a verb. "To control from on top." So punching over someone's arm to hit them while keep a low heavy elbow to keep their arm pinned is fook (fu) sao.


Are you using the other hand to grab on your opponent's wrist?

- If yes, you should guide his arm away from your striking path so his face will expose more.
- If no, he can borrow your downward force, spin his arm into a hook punch.

IMO, to punch over someone's arm while using a low heavy elbow to keep his arm pinned is difficult to do if he tries to avoid arms contact.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> How to you post pictures in a response like that. Tried to do it for my original response and couldn't quite figure it out.


- Find a picture online.
- Upload to postimage WC Tan Fu — Postimage.org
- Open image ICON and paste the "direct link" into it.


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you using the other hand to grab on your opponent's wrist?
> 
> - If yes, you should guide his arm away from your striking path so his face will expose more.
> - If no, he can move his arm away so the arm contact will no longer be there.
> ...


No, no grabbing of the wrist here. Just punching straight down the center line. This would be used against another straight punch. If it was a curved punch on a hook the technique changes. 
What lineage of WT do you train?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> What lineage of WT do you train?


Ip Men -> Jimmy Kao -> me


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2019)

Highlander said:


> This would be used against another straight punch.


If your opponent is not another WC guy, when you use straight punch, he will use circular punch and the other way around. You can only have 2 options, 

- to protect your center from inside out (WC strategy), or
- to protect your center from outside in (boxing strategy).


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your opponent is not another WC guy, when you use straight punch, he will use circular punch and the other way around. You can only have 2 options,
> 
> - to protect your center from inside out (WC strategy), or
> - to protect your center from outside in (boxing strategy).


Yeah. I stick to the WT one for the most part


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Ip Men -> Jimmy Kao -> me


Nice. Just trying to get an idea of the type of WT you've been shown. As we all know it varies dramatically from lineage to lineage and person to person.


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## Highlander (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How will you use Fu Shou to hurt your opponent?


Another way to hurt someone with Fook Sao would be to 'ground and pound'.
An old story I've heard about Leung Ting is when he was explaining this exact idea (verbs vs noun) he was talking about how the fook can be done in many ways. He then swept the demo partner and got on top of him and said. See..... I'm fooking him. 
Good ol WT humor


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you using the other hand to grab on your opponent's wrist?
> 
> - If yes, you should guide his arm away from your striking path so his face will expose more.
> - If no, he can borrow your downward force, spin his arm into a hook punch.
> ...


Not practicing wing chun, just looking at that picture I can see the advantage there. It gives you the option to control the other persons arm, which gives you the advantage in an attack (if I remove your arm with my arm, in theory we both have one free arm. However, knowing that is my plan, I can attack first and put you on the defensive. Not knowing your arm is about to be removed, you have no choice but to react to my next attack)


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## Dominic82555 (May 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What has any of that to do with the fact that defense is an integral part of every system? All of them.


That's my point.   No disrespect to the participants but I'm wondering where is the defensive moves? All I see is punch for punch, am I missing something or is this to acclimate you to getting hit???? In actuality, this would be a crap shoot   smh


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## wckf92 (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch)..



A huge generalization. And inaccurate IMO.

They "can" be used for defense...but they are offensively applied (at least that's how I learned it)


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Wrestling is known for single leg and not for arm guide.
> - Judo is known for leg lift (Uchi Mata) and not for ride on.
> - ...


Yes, and I've already addressed that what an art is known for isn't an accurate summary of the art. Judo training involves a lot of learning how to maintain center/structure, how to defend grips, etc. Typically, we describe the most observable aspect. Defense is less overt, by nature.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2019)

Highlander said:


> Nice. Just trying to get an idea of the type of WT you've been shown. As we all know it varies dramatically from lineage to lineage and person to person.


What??? Differences in WC by lineage?? Surely you are mistaken, sir!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> That's my point.   No disrespect to the participants but I'm wondering where is the defensive moves? All I see is punch for punch, am I missing something or is this to acclimate you to getting hit???? In actuality, this would be a crap shoot   smh


It is my experience that most Asian arts teach an exaggeration/stylized version of the defensive moves (at least as regards strikes/blocks). In practice, the principles are applied, rather than the simplistic blocks, so what happens in actual sparring can lack the visual cues you're looking for to recognize the defensive moves.

I've almost zero experience in WC (meaning, I've seen a few people do it, and played with a couple of guys who were well experienced), so I don't know if that's what happens with WC or not.


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## Dominic82555 (May 2, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> That's my point.   No disrespect to the participants but I'm wondering where is the defensive moves? All I see is punch for punch, am I missing something or is this to acclimate you to getting hit???? In actuality, this would be a crap shoot   smh



Full Contact Wing Tsun vs - Bing video


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Not practicing wing chun, just looking at that picture I can see the advantage there. It gives you the option to control the other persons arm, which gives you the advantage in an attack (if I remove your arm with my arm, in theory we both have one free arm. However, knowing that is my plan, I can attack first and put you on the defensive. Not knowing your arm is about to be removed, you have no choice but to react to my next attack)


- Your opponent punches.
- You use Fu Shou to block/deflect it.
- You then apply downward pressure and punch back with the same arm.
- Your opponent can uses WC Bon Shou to block/deflect it.

This is why I also asked whether you (general YOU) use the other hand to grab your opponent's wrist or not. If you do, you can pull and straight his arm so his arm cannot bend as Bon Shou. Your punch will have a much clear path to punch back.


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## Martial D (May 2, 2019)

Highlander said:


> The reason you see people just punching and getting hit in so many videos is because there is so much bad wt out there. Just like every other system the bad ugly practitioners seem to out weight the good ones. People either lack practice, understanding, or both. It could also be a lack of understanding the drill you're watching. My sifu actually use to have us run that same drill when I was starting out. Chain punch vs chain punch, just to build endurance and get use to getting hit
> 
> A great person to YouTube for all of these concepts would be Emin Boztepe.



I was right with you up to this point. That isn't the reason.

The reason is that 99% isn't trained realistically. You will never learn how to fight by practicing forms and doing chisau.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> In practice, the principles are applied, rather than the simplistic blocks, ...


Agree! For example, In the 

- long fist system, your inside out block always follow by a grab and pull. If you can apply that principle, you are a good long fist fighter.
- WC system, your always block a punch by extending your arm from the center of your chest. If you can apply that principle, you are a good WC fighter.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> A huge generalization. And inaccurate IMO.
> 
> They "can" be used for defense...but they are offensively applied (at least that's how I learned it)


That's why I ask how to use Fu Shou, Pak Shou in offense. Could you put up a clip for this?

Any defense technique can be changed into offense technique. As long as when you use a technique for 100% defense at a particular moment, even if you can change it into offense 1/4 second later, it's still a defense technique at that moment.

For example, I can 

- raise my knee to block a kick. I can then change my leg block into a roundhouse kick. 
- use an inside out block to block a punch. I can then change my block into a straight punch. 

Will you call my knee raising or inside out block a defense move, or an offense move?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> That's my point.   No disrespect to the participants but I'm wondering where is the defensive moves? All I see is punch for punch, am I missing something or is this to acclimate you to getting hit???? In actuality, this would be a crap shoot   smh


What else do you need if you can do this?


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## Callen (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Bong, Tang, Fu, Pak, ... are used for defense (to deflect a punch).


Many practitioners refer to the Wing Chun shapes as simply parts of a complete action, or an implementation of a concept. In this context Bong, Tan, Pak and Fuk etc... are not defensive hands that stand alone. It has been said that Wing Chun is to attack the attack, _Lin Su Dai Da_, combining attack and defense together in one action.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Callen said:


> Many practitioners refer to the Wing Chun shapes as simply parts of a complete action, or an implementation of a concept. In this context Bong, Tan, Pak and Fuk etc... are not defensive hands that stand alone. It has been said that Wing Chun is to attack the attack, _Lin Su Dai Da_, combining attack and defense together in one action.


The WC Pak Shou is to use your palm to push your opponent's punch side way (as used in the WC single sticky hand). Of course you can change your Pak Shou into a punch. But I won't call Pak Shou as offense move.

Some CMA systems are just too abstract. Some may say that a forward step can always be a kick. But a step is still a step. A kick is different from a step.

When you

- step, you are not training for your kick.
- use Pak Shou, you are not training for your punch.


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## wckf92 (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Pak Shou is to use your palm to push your opponent's punch side way (as used in the WC single sticky hand). Of course you can change your Pak Shou into a punch. But I won't call Pak Shou as offense move.
> 
> Some CMA systems are just too abstract. Some may say that a forward step can always be a kick. But a step is still a step. A kick is different from a step.
> 
> ...



That's a very narrow view you have. Yes, some of this discussion could be semantics, but if you think pak sau is to push something sideways.... Wow...


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> That's a very narrow view you have. Yes, some of this discussion could be semantics, but if you think pak sau is to push something sideways.... Wow...


Can you put up a clip to show that Pak Shou is used in offense?


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2019)

Because we all know that if you can’t find it on YouTube, it didn’t happen.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Because we all know that if you can’t find it on YouTube, it didn’t happen.


If you ask me "How to use Pak Shou in offense", and if I know how to do it (but I don't), I will

- get a partner,
- find a video camera,
- film it, and
- share that clip here.

How hard can that be?


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you ask me "How to use Pak Shou in offense", and if I know how to do it (but I don't), I will
> 
> - get a partner,
> - find a video camera,
> ...


That is irrelevant.  Not everything that happens gets filmed and put on the internet.  That is life.

If you are just asking if there are examples available, that is one thing.

But if you are pointing to a lack of video examples as “proof” that it does not happen, that is something else altogether.


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## Callen (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC Pak Shou is to use your palm to push your opponent's punch side way (as used in the WC single sticky hand). Of course you can change your Pak Shou into a punch. But I won't call Pak Shou as offense move.


That is one way to interpret the Pak Sau, another is to drive it forward offensively. Many practitioners also use it in an aggressively preemptive way, creating an interception that controls timing and can benefit distance management.

All of the Wing Chun shapes have offensive uses when they are part of a complete action, whether in-conjunction with a strike using the other hand, or utilizing concepts in the system such as chasing center, taking position, grounding, etc.


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## wckf92 (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Can you put up a clip to show that Pak Shou is used in offense?



To me, pak is a ballistic action.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> That is irrelevant.  Not everything that happens gets filmed and put on the internet.  That is life.
> 
> If you are just asking if there are examples available, that is one thing.
> 
> But if you are pointing to a lack of video examples as “proof” that it does not happen, that is something else altogether.


If I think that I cannot use Pak Shou for offense and you think that you can, do you think it's your responsibility to prove it?


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I think that I cannot use Pak Shou for offense and you think that you can, do you think it's your responsibility to prove it?


No.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> No.


I thought we try to continue MA discussion and share information here.


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## Flying Crane (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I thought we try to continue MA discussion and share information here.


Sure, but nobody has a responsibility or obligation to make a video to satisfy you.  

Conversation can go:  hey, can this happen?
Why yes, I do it all the time.
Well make a video and show me because I don’t believe you.
Well, no, I am not inclined.
I don’t believe you then.
That’s fine.

Some things are simply outside of your realm of experience.  Nobody has an obligation to meet your demands to satisfy you.  Maybe someday you will experience it.  In the meantime, I see nothing wrong with accepting what those who are in the know, say about it.  

You trained Wing Chun many many many many years ago, no longer do so, and tend to be derisive of it.  You are not in the know.


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## Highlander (May 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The reason is that 99% isn't trained realistically. You will never learn how to fight by practicing forms and doing chisau.


I would consider that to fall in the "both" category. 
 I completely agree


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## Highlander (May 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Can you put up a clip to show that Pak Shou is used in offense?


Pak Sao literally means slapping hand. So..


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## Highlander (May 2, 2019)

For the record. I dont believe anyone is saying these moves cant be defensive. Just that they aren't simple blocking techniques. They run much deeper than that


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## Highlander (May 2, 2019)

Dominic82555 said:


> Full Contact Wing Tsun vs - Bing video


I think the problem here is the pads. They can afford to go in and play rockem sockem robots. If they did this with just mma gloves I think you'd see more movement and footwork which leads to more hands.


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## Buka (May 2, 2019)

Highlander said:


> Pak Sao literally means slapping hand. So..



I just can't stop laughing at this. Oh, God.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

Highlander said:


> For the record. I dont believe anyone is saying these moves cant be defensive. Just that they aren't simple blocking techniques. They run much deeper than that


To push your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm and even push him back is common MA strategy. I don't call that offense strategy. I'll call that entering strategy.


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## Martial D (May 2, 2019)

Highlander said:


> For the record. I dont believe anyone is saying these moves cant be defensive. Just that they aren't simple blocking techniques. They run much deeper than that


Pak is just about getting contact. All of the hand shapes are. The Wing Chun begins, as I see it, once  that contact is made.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 2, 2019)

When you use Pak Shou, is your tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger) pointing to yourself, or point to your opponent?


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## Highlander (May 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To push your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm and even push him back is common MA strategy. I don't call that offense strategy. I'll call that entering strategy.


I think you're being too dogmatic at this point. To enter into your opponents territory in anyway is an offensive move IMO. Footwork can for offensive or defensive.


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