# Shaolin Do Kung Fu



## jstreet (Jun 23, 2006)

What is the deal with these schools? I live in Austin and I want to look in to taking Wing Chun but no one offers that here. Someone told me Shaolin Do is a Chinese word and a Japanese word and something isn's right about this. Does anyone have any info on this?

Thanks,
Jon


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 23, 2006)

jstreet said:
			
		

> What is the deal with these schools? I live in Austin and I want to look in to taking Wing Chun but no one offers that here. Someone told me Shaolin Do is a Chinese word and a Japanese word and something isn's right about this. Does anyone have any info on this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jon


 
I know that Shaolin Do sure kick butt.  

Honestly, I have no idea.  But I do know the Japanese use plenty of Chinese martial arts (CMA) in their own styles.  Perhaps that's what is going on there? Can anyone add to that?


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## clfsean (Jun 23, 2006)

Search KFO (Kung Fu Online) for more info on Shaolin do.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

As far as I know Shaolin is Chinese and 'do' is Japanese.

But if you go to their website (http://www.shaolin-do.com/)
they are also talking about katas which are definitely Japanese. And they appear to wear Japanese Gi and have Japanese style belts. So I do not know what to tell you, good or bad, don't know. Culturally mixed...yup

 And they appear to be everywhere...


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## mantis (Jun 23, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> As far as I know Shaolin is Chinese and 'do' is Japanese.
> 
> But if you go to their website (http://www.shaolin-do.com/)
> they are also talking about katas which are definitely Japanese. And they appear to wear Japanese Gi and have Japanese style belts. So I do not know what to tell you, good or bad, don't know. Culturally mixed...yup
> ...


"do" is cantonese as well as japanese
as in jeet kune do


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

When I was in college I met someone who was a member in this group.  I will try to relate what I understand about them, and where they come from and what they do.  I trained under this guy for a couple semesters on a very casual basis.

They trace their lineage to the southern shaolin temple.  At some point, supposedly, one of the monks ended up in Malaysia, or Indonesia due to a period of turmoil in China.  This monk taught in his new home and passed along what he knew.  Apparently there was a period of suppression for all things Chinese, especially martial arts, so the name was changed a bit and they started wearing Karate Gis to hide the fact that what they did was Chinese.

Supposedly the art has been passed down from then, and one of the Grand Masters from a couple of generations ago had a genetic disorder that caused him to grow thick hair all over his body and face.  They have pictures of him on their websites, he looks kind of like a dog-man.  It is a real genetic disorder, but very rare, tho I don't remeber what it is called.  In the past, most people with this disorder probably ended up in the circus freak shows.

Anyway, their current grandmaster is a guy by the name of Sin The (pronounced "Tay"), with his main school in Lexington, Kentucky.  They claim to have a huge amount of Chinese martial arts material, that spans many many systems.  I think they claim about 900 forms, and supposedly the grandmaster has mastered them all.  I've never met him so I cannot judge, but the guy I knew in college had a very high opinion of him.  My friend was not a college student like myself, but rather an earth sciences Ph.D., probaby at least 25 years older than me, so he was well educated and well travelled, also with a solid background in Kajukenbo.  His wife taught in the sociology dept. of my college, and I just happened to meet him working out in one of the racquetball courts one day.  

What I learned from him was taught to me very quickly, so I don't believe I learned it well.  This makes it difficult for me to pass a really strong judgement over what they do because I don't think I really understand it.  My current sifu in San Francisco doesn't have a very high opinion of them, however, and I have gradually dropped almost everything that I learned from them, from what I continue to practice.  Even if it is good stuff, I just don't think I learned it well enough to make it worthwhile to keep any of it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> "do" is cantonese as well as japanese
> as in jeet kune do


 
You are correct sir and I am well.... half correct.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> When I was in college I met someone who was a member in this group. I will try to relate what I understand about them, and where they come from and what they do. I trained under this guy for a couple semesters on a very casual basis.
> 
> They trace their lineage to the southern shaolin temple. At some point, supposedly, one of the monks ended up in Malaysia, or Indonesia due to a period of turmoil in China. This monk taught in his new home and passed along what he knew. Apparently there was a period of suppression for all things Chinese, especially martial arts, so the name was changed a bit and they started wearing Karate Gis to hide the fact that what they did was Chinese.
> 
> ...


 
Possibly mastered 900 styles, that is interesting. 

But as you said, never meeting him I cannot judge either. However my first CMA Sifu makes similar claims these days too. But it is all form no substance


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Possibly mastered 900 styles, that is interesting.


 
Well, not exactly.  I think they claim 900 individual forms, not complete systems.  But these 900 are from many different systems, the total number I don't know.  

But yes, that is certainly _interesting_, and this is the kind of thing that gives me reason to doubt.

When I trained with this guy, I was completely new to the Chinese arts.  My experience, up to that point, had been with Kenpo, and a little judo.  It was completely new to me and I thought it was pretty good.  It is in hindsight, with a lot more experience, that I look back and feel a good deal of doubt.


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## KOROHO (Jun 23, 2006)

There is definitely a mixup here.
As explained before "Shaolin" is Chinese and "Do" indicates it is a modern Japanese art.  Someone else also commented on the use pf Japanese oriented Kata and the gi.

I would not say that this mixup, usually from a lack of historical knowledge and understanding, renders the system useless.  It may be effective self defense.

Are you sure that Leung Ting's organization does not have a Wing Chun school in Austin?  Try googling "Ving Tsun" and "Wing Tsun".  You may find something under a different spelling.  I know Leung Ting has a group in TX around various cities.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

KOROHO said:
			
		

> There is definitely a mixup here.
> As explained before "Shaolin" is Chinese and "Do" indicates it is a modern Japanese art. Someone else also commented on the use pf Japanese oriented Kata and the gi.
> 
> I would not say that this mixup, usually from a lack of historical knowledge and understanding, renders the system useless. It may be effective self defense.


 
Yes, it is my understanding that the Japanese term "Do" was added to the name, with the use of the Japanese Gi, to hide the origins of the art.  I would think that the word "shaolin" would have been a dead giveaway, but that is the story as I understand it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

I am actually more concerned about the use of kata than the wearing of a Gi. And as Mantis said 'do' is also Cantonese and since I think we are talking Southern Shaolin the us of 'do' may be appropriate



			
				Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Well, not exactly. I think they claim 900 individual forms, not complete systems. But these 900 are from many different systems, the total number I don't know.
> 
> But yes, that is certainly interesting, and this is the kind of thing that gives me reason to doubt.
> 
> When I trained with this guy, I was completely new to the Chinese arts. My experience, up to that point, had been with Kenpo, and a little judo. It was completely new to me and I thought it was pretty good. It is in hindsight, with a lot more experience, that I look back and feel a good deal of doubt.



To go off post a bit, the sad part about my first CMA Sifu is that he is skilled at what he was originally taught, that was Wushu forms. However now he claims mastery of multiple schools and lineage from different families, and I was told by one of those families which he now claims lineage too that he never learned anything from them.


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## jstreet (Jun 23, 2006)

WOW!!!!!

Thanks for the incredible respsonses, they are proving to be most helpful.
These are the links to the Austin Schools I was referring to. 

http://www.austinwt.com/index.php

Wing Tsun Kung Fu, I have been told this is different than Wing Chun, quite a bit different. It says on the WT website the Sifu is one of the top 3 in the US in this system. http://www.leungtingwingtsun.net/ The videos they have on this site show the Sifu in Austin doing some moves. He seems very good?

http://www.usakfa.com/main_sub.html?src=overture

This one is highly recommended but a good distance away from my house.
No Wing Chun.

Here are the Shaolin Do links.

http://www.texaskungfu.com/ 
Close to home.

http://www.swshaolin.com/
Across town.

Maybe a few of you can check these links and see what you think.

Thank you all very much for the "detailed" help.

Best Regards To All,
Jon


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun, Ving Chun, they are all the same thing.  Some people spell it differently for various reasons, mainly to set themselves apart.  Different lineages of Wing Chun do exist and they will do some things somewhat differently.  that happens in all martial arts, even from one school to the next where the teachers were all classmates under the same teacher.  But the similarities will far outweigh the differences.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 23, 2006)

Wing Chun would be a good choice.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 23, 2006)

jstreet said:
			
		

> WOW!!!!!
> 
> Thanks for the incredible respsonses, they are proving to be most helpful.
> These are the links to the Austin Schools I was referring to.
> ...


 
I already stated what I know about the shaolin do people.  I'm reluctant to give a strong opinion, but in all honesty, if it was me, I would go elsewhere.  I checked out their websites, checked out the Instructors info, seems like a lot of promotion in a short time.  People who started in 1997 or 1999 already being promoted to 3rd or 4th or 5th black belt.  That's kind of a red flag.  Their head instructor, Joe Schaefer, however, has the same name as my little brother.  That cracks me up a bit.

I'd check out the wing chun, and the other shaolin kung fu (not shaolin-do) school.  See what you think.


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## jstreet (Jun 23, 2006)

Thanks for the advice. I keep hearing the same thing about the Shaolin Do Style across many different forums. Even Kung Fu Magazine Forums, the largest KF forum I have found so far has endless discussions about this.
This thread has about 1800 posts from all sorts of different backgrounds. 
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782

I will check out the other two. SD is closer to my home, but I don't think I want to pratice a disputed form.


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## KENPOJOE (Jul 4, 2006)

Hi folks!
Shaolin Do is a style that was brought to this country by Sin The and his brother in the 1960's. SinThe would attend various tournaments to promote his "style". I've noticed over the years that whenever a new book came out on a particular form/set,within 3-6 months, it was added to the Shaolin Do curriculum! I've met a couple of Shaolin Do black belts that have visited my area and was immediately unimpressed not only with their ability to make the particular sets look good,but also the lack of quality of the set itself. Sin The has had articles over the years here and there & i'd recommend watching a couple of classes first. If you are set on wing chun,skip shaolin do.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## Radhnoti (Jul 6, 2006)

I got to black in shaolin-do before I decided to move on.  If you want an uncontroversial style, or even one that's well received in the Chinese martial arts community, shaolin-do isn't a good choice.
Shaolin-do passed through Indonesia and was changed there, then was brought to the U.S. in the mid or early 60's and changed again.  In my opinion, it would be most appropriate to refer to shaolin-do as a branch of American kuntao.
Shaolin-do was time well spent for me, however.  I'd never had any exposure to any Chinese martial arts, and the shaolin-do curriculum certainly gives you a fantastic overview.  A good friend who stopped just short of black years before I joined up called shaolin-do, "kung-fu's greatest hits".  The training is typically forms (or kata) heavy.  You begin with short forms which are similar to the Chinese muslim art of Tan Tui, though from a different source.  On the road to black you "get" a few Tigers, 3 Cranes, 3 "Big Birds" (sometimes called shaolin hawks at some schools), a form said to be a prerequisite for mantis, and 2 "china hand" forms...sort of like long fist.  You also get weapons forms: 3 or so staff, broadsword, short stick, sai, kwandao.  This is all pre-black, after black the curriculum COULD go almost any direction depending on your teacher.  Many schools have a seperate "internal" curriculum with tai chi, ba gua, tai chi sword, tai chi fan, etc.  Though after reaching black in the "normal" curriculum you end up studying the internal anyway.
In any case, as was advised earlier, you probably don't want shaolin-do if you seek to avoid controversy.  Statements like, "We offer the most comprehensive martial art in the world."  And a pretty shakey martial history (hair covered shaolin grandmasters no one outside of shaolin-do have heard of) hurt shaolin-do's credibility in the martial community.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 6, 2006)

Radhnoti said:
			
		

> it would be most appropriate to refer to shaolin-do as a branch of American kuntao.


 
That actually says a lot. 

Seeing as Kuntao was and or is a rather eclectic Indonesian martial art practiced by the Chinese that lived there. It also encompasses a lot of other arts, Judo, Shaolin, Karate and others.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 6, 2006)

Radhnoti said:
			
		

> I got to black in shaolin-do before I decided to move on. If you want an uncontroversial style, or even one that's well received in the Chinese martial arts community, shaolin-do isn't a good choice.
> Shaolin-do passed through Indonesia and was changed there, then was brought to the U.S. in the mid or early 60's and changed again. In my opinion, it would be most appropriate to refer to shaolin-do as a branch of American kuntao.
> Shaolin-do was time well spent for me, however. I'd never had any exposure to any Chinese martial arts, and the shaolin-do curriculum certainly gives you a fantastic overview. A good friend who stopped just short of black years before I joined up called shaolin-do, "kung-fu's greatest hits". The training is typically forms (or kata) heavy. You begin with short forms which are similar to the Chinese muslim art of Tan Tui, though from a different source. On the road to black you "get" a few Tigers, 3 Cranes, 3 "Big Birds" (sometimes called shaolin hawks at some schools), a form said to be a prerequisite for mantis, and 2 "china hand" forms...sort of like long fist. You also get weapons forms: 3 or so staff, broadsword, short stick, sai, kwandao. This is all pre-black, after black the curriculum COULD go almost any direction depending on your teacher. Many schools have a seperate "internal" curriculum with tai chi, ba gua, tai chi sword, tai chi fan, etc. Though after reaching black in the "normal" curriculum you end up studying the internal anyway.
> In any case, as was advised earlier, you probably don't want shaolin-do if you seek to avoid controversy. Statements like, "We offer the most comprehensive martial art in the world." And a pretty shakey martial history (hair covered shaolin grandmasters no one outside of shaolin-do have heard of) hurt shaolin-do's credibility in the martial community.


 
thanks for this post.  Since my own time with this system, I have often wondered about it, and your post has shed some light on the subject.

I was never formally ranked by the man with whom I trained, but he did give me most of the material to Brown Belt, all within about one semester.  This is why I feel I didn't learn it well and can't claim to understand it fully.  I don't know why he taught me so much so fast, I guess he felt I was capable of swallowing it all.  He was a nice, good hearted person and I have a lot of respect for him in that regard.  He did not teach out of a formal school, rather we just met up in the exercise rooms on campus and worked out each day.  He never asked me for a dime of payment for what he taught me and I was grateful of that as I was a broke college student at the time.

Since then I have run across the group on the internet a few times, and it just doesn't settle well with me as a system, based on what I understand their Historical claims to be.  They actually claim Sin The is the rightful Grand Master of the Southern Shaolin Temple.  Pretty far-fetched, in my opinion.

They may have some capable people, and Sin The has a remarkable physique for a man his age (I have seen his picture on the internet sites, he is not especially old but could be in his 60s by now).  But I don't think I would ever train with them again if the opportunity arose.


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 6, 2006)

Just some additional information for those interested in Shaolin-Do. There is a site called www.ShaolinLegends.com that has several DVD's for sale concerning their material. 

This includes applications of Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan (Xue Sheng, check it out !!!)

I guess these guys who are teaching this stuff have been students of Sin The for a long time or something. 

Anyway I would appreciate hearing peoples reactions to it.


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 6, 2006)

In addition to a videoclip of their Yang Style self defense applications, there is a guy who teaches how to figure out all the applications in all there kung fu forms

take a gander at this: 


After more than nine years in development, Master Nance and Sifu Berryman have released this video which teaches you how to get the most from your applications. KAT takes the basic beginning forms and shows you how to use statistical analysis to figure out any application in the Shaolin Do system. KAT was designed for any student of Shaolin Do and can help your material come alive.

Statistical Analysis ??? What? :idunno:


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## Radhnoti (Jul 11, 2006)

Flying Crane - "They actually claim that Sin The' is the rightful Grandmaster of the Southern Shaolin Temple."

Yep.  This is the biggest weakness in their historical presentation, in my opinion.  They claim Su Kong Tai Djin was the original Grandmaster who then passed the title to Ie Chang Ming and then to Sin The'.  Shaolin-do has lots of Su Kong stories, but no other Chinese martial art...some of which claim to have originated at the Southern Shaolin Temple as well and are able to compare monk names from that time...indicate they've heard of a GM or even a monk completely covered with hair.  It's inconceivable that NO ONE else from the same place and time would have mentioned such a unique individual.  Heck, he'd be a folk hero!

Again, I like the system...loved my teacher...my sparring improved as did my fitness level.  It just really doesn't have a good name because of the history gaps and occasionally outlandish claims.  The politics are pretty intense as well.  The guy that taught you, if he didn't ok it with the higher ups, would have been booted from the system...all the areas of the country are divided up with only specific people being allowed to "own" an area.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2006)

Radhnoti said:
			
		

> Flying Crane - "They actually claim that Sin The' is the rightful Grandmaster of the Southern Shaolin Temple."
> 
> Yep. This is the biggest weakness in their historical presentation, in my opinion. They claim Su Kong Tai Djin was the original Grandmaster who then passed the title to Ie Chang Ming and then to Sin The'. Shaolin-do has lots of Su Kong stories, but no other Chinese martial art...some of which claim to have originated at the Southern Shaolin Temple as well and are able to compare monk names from that time...indicate they've heard of a GM or even a monk completely covered with hair. It's inconceivable that NO ONE else from the same place and time would have mentioned such a unique individual. Heck, he'd be a folk hero!
> 
> Again, I like the system...loved my teacher...my sparring improved as did my fitness level. It just really doesn't have a good name because of the history gaps and occasionally outlandish claims. The politics are pretty intense as well. The guy that taught you, if he didn't ok it with the higher ups, would have been booted from the system...all the areas of the country are divided up with only specific people being allowed to "own" an area.


 
Good points.  

That's pretty crazy about the geographic distribution of teaching rights.  I dunno, maybe he had rights in that area or something.  This was back in about 1991 or so, in Minnesota, maybe things were different at that time, in that place.


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