# Is the number 108 important to your style?



## geezer (Jun 7, 2009)

Traditionally in eastern thought, especially Hinduism and Buddhism, the number 108 held special status. In the martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, this number turns up a lot. The 108 movements of the Yang style long form, the 108 movements of the Yip Man lineage version of the Wing Chun wooden dummy set, and so forth. Does the number 108 have special significance in your system?


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 7, 2009)

I do not find 108 persay in Bagua and Xingyi. Some say in Taiji it depends on how you are counting. 

 108 does have importance in religion as does other numbers.

Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.


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## ggg214 (Jun 7, 2009)

geezer said:


> Traditionally in eastern thought, especially Hinduism and Buddhism, the number 108 held special status. In the martial arts, especially Chinese martial arts, this number turns up a lot. The 108 movements of the Yang style long form, the 108 movements of the Yip Man lineage version of the Wing Chun wooden dummy set, and so forth. Does the number 108 have special significance in your system?


 
NO!

in my taiji forms, we have 117 movements. in my current style, no forms at all.


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## clfsean (Jun 7, 2009)

Not so much... there's respects to Buddha in our style, but numerology not more than the normal.


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## ChukaSifu2 (Jun 7, 2009)

In our South Mantis system. 108 points of attack, Maks and Meridians.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

8 is a lucky number in China therefore all thing with 8 are good too. 8, 88, 108, 1088, 2008, etc. However I do not think that it really has an effect on the number of postures in a form.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 8, 2009)

sure.  108 hyakuhachi can represent the hyakuhachi banno -the 108 delusionary passions 
I gather it is important to any style that has been inlfuenced by buddhism.


j


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## geezer (Jun 8, 2009)

kaizasosei said:


> sure.  108 hyakuhachi can represent the hyakuhachi banno -the 108 delusionary passions
> I gather it is important to *any style that has been inlfuenced by buddhism*.
> j




_Exactly_, but this Buddhist influence may not always be the best for the style from a _functional_ standpoint. My former Wing Tsun Sifu's investigations on the mainland, way back in the 80's suggested that the wooden dummy form originally had a good deal more than 108 movements. Some of these were unnecessary reetitions, so the form was trimmed down and "streamlined" to about 108. But then, perhaps in a desire to make it match that "perfect" number, it may have been trimmed a bit too much. If this is what happened, it would be another case of tradition trumping practical application.  

In Wing Tsun, practicality is held at a premium. So the result is that the form he teaches now has 116 movements. Other branches use different versions. Many still favor the 108 movement set as taught by Grandmaster Yip during his Hong Kong years.


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## Ninebird8 (Jun 8, 2009)

108 Eagle claw locks, 108 movements in long form Yang tai chi, etc., but more importantly are the divisors of 8 or 3, like 24 movement, 48 movement, 72 movement, etc.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

Ninebird8 said:


> 108 movements in long form Yang tai chi,.


 

That one depends on how you count the forms


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## clfsean (Jun 8, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> That one depends on how you count the forms



That's the one thing that's always killed me. Counting... how do you count? That I can tell, there's 2 methods... one for hands, one for feet... sometimes it's only one, sometimes it's both.

It's quite annoying...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 8, 2009)

clfsean said:


> That's the one thing that's always killed me. Counting... how do you count? That I can tell, there's 2 methods... one for hands, one for feet... sometimes it's only one, sometimes it's both.
> 
> It's quite annoying...


 
3 brush knee steps is 3 postures or 3 brush knee steps is 1 posture. Do you count repeats or do you not count repeats and to make it more confusing some say 108 some say more. I believe the Yang Family now says over 108 and the Tung family says 88 and it is the same form


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## oxy (Jun 9, 2009)

Then there's the application counting method. Is a strike one posture and is a block then strike one or two postures?

If one application severely injures three people at once, is that three postures?


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## mograph (Jun 9, 2009)

Meh. I find "long form" vs. "short form" more useful. To me, defining the postures so they add up to 88 or 108 is like calling your business "lucky driving school". 

... and from another point of view, would a Westerner create a 13-move form?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 9, 2009)

mograph said:


> Meh. I find "long form" vs. "short form" more useful. To me, defining the postures so they add up to 88 or 108 is like calling your business "lucky driving school".
> 
> ... and from another point of view, would a Westerner create a 13-move form?


 
Using numbers to describe forms is rather new and mostly for westerners. 

My Sifu never heard anything with numbers while training and does not use them in class and I don't use them anywhere but on MT
Long form, fast form, long dao form, short dao form, jian form that is all my Sifu ever heard (in Chinese of course) training in China.

The Chen family still uses things like Laojia yilu and Laojia erlu to describe forms. I have heard numbers applied to those as well but again it is mostly, as far as Taiji is concerned, put there for westerners


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