# Animal Abuse?



## Tgace (May 4, 2014)

This is getting a lot of internet traction lately. When I first watched it I was expecting something a LOT worse than what I saw. I think people are transferring the emotions they have for their family pet onto a working police dog.


While a person who has never been around Police K9's may find this video shocking, because this is obviously something they would never do to their family pet, I'm not so quick to pass judgement on this officer. These Dogs can be exceedingly dominant and driven and are exceedingly tough. They do things your average dog would never do and are trained in ways your average dog is not.
In order to get some of these dogs to drop something from their mouths (which this dog had...watch the officer pick it up after) sometimes these handlers have to do things that may appear shocking to the unitiated because these dogs don't pay attention to anything less. They are trained to drag fighting people to the ground after-all...they don't scare easily and don't even feel what may look like "abusive" blows. What good would a Police dog be if he was scared off by a suspect striking him?


Look. I'm not K9 trained...and I'm not defending the technique used here, If it's determined that this was something more akin to he officer exhibiting frustration and anger at the dog than he deserves what he gets. Perhaps some handlers have less visually shocking methods to handle a highly driven dog and this PD should be looking into them, but for now I'm not 100% sold on the "OMG Animal Abuse" meme starting around this one. The dogs body language and wagging tail after he drops what he had tends to make me think the dog isn't either.


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## Tgace (May 4, 2014)

After reading the comments by K9 handlers here. It appears they agree with me.

Video: Ind. cop strikes K-9 multiple times, placed on leave



> As a former handler and now trainer. Compulsion on a high drive dog is not abuse. As already stated some dogs are higher drive thus requiring a different degrees of correction, when not listening or challenging the handler. It doesn't look good if a service dog is corrected in public but sometimes it just happens that way, a dog needs to be corrected then and there. The admin in that dept needs to educate themselves. I will also email them.





> First let me start by saying I would not abuse an animal. Now that is clear. I am an officer, 22 years on the street 17 in K9. What he did was not abusive. What he did by hanging the dog is a hard out. This is often done with high drive dogs. This did not hurt the dog. Watch the dog when he released and is heading back to the car. He is happy, still ready to work and is not cowering or afraid of the handler. The problem is we put human emotion into dog training. The dog understood what just happened. This is how dogs interact in the pack.


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## ballen0351 (May 4, 2014)

As a former k9 handler with a young extremely high strung dog.  I saw nothing even remotely close to abuse there.  My biggest concern is when he let's it run to the street on the lead too close to traffic. Maybe the little slap with the lead on the leg only because hitting a dog like that has no effect since they are trained to drive through that stuff.   Hold the dog up by the collar or lead until he releases the reward is common practice


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## Tgace (May 4, 2014)

Personally...It looks like this PD's leadership has no balls.

Don't work for Hammond PD. They will hang you out to dry.


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## ballen0351 (May 4, 2014)

When I first saw this making the rounds I figured it was an alpha roll or something.  They look bad but they are not painful to the dog other then it's pride.


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## K-man (May 4, 2014)

Perhaps if people looked at Schutzhund training which is the type of basic training a lot of service dogs receive before their more specialised training, they might understand that the 'hold' is all part of a game for the dog. Getting the release is not always easy, especially when a dog is in the early stages of training.

As to holding the dog up by the collar? Perhaps not the best thing to do in public, and not something I would do with my dog, but look at the way this Shepherd swings off the arm in the video. But that said, have a look for the tail wag. As far as the dog was concerned it was all part of the game.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qfPn01WW2Ok

I'm waiting for a working Shepherd pup at present and have been watching some of the training. The dogs are trained from puppies not to react to being hit so hitting seemed a bit pointless really. I'd have been more concerned if the dog had released on being struck. 
:asian:


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## oftheherd1 (May 6, 2014)

For a short while in Vietnam I had a scout dog to train as a marijuana sniffer.  Mine, Thor, was well trained, friendly, and docile, unless he perceived a threat to me.  Then like a good shepherd, he was very protective.  I had a guy test that while my back was turned.  After I got Thor to turn him loose, he told me he thought it would be cool to sneak up on me to show me my dog wasn't any good.  He certainly had to have been doing a good job of making it look realistic.  I didn't know a person's eyes could get that big.  And Thor didn't really hurt him, just growled, lunged, and grabbed his wrist and looked up at his face as if to tell the guy it could stop right there or the guy could try to take if further if he wanted to learn more about Thor.

But there was a dog that came in from the 4th Div, already a marijuana sniffer who taught himself to alert on heroin (in 1970/71, considered impossible).  The handler mentioned that when he got to Lackland, the instructors asked if anyone wanted a difficult dog; one who had turned on his previous Air Force handler/trainee, and injured him so badly, that it put him out of the Air Force.  The current handler said his dad had raised shepherds all his life, and he didn't think there was a dog he couldn't handle.  Toby didn't prove him wrong.  But he was very independent and self willed.  If you stepped on his toes lightly in play, he *would* bite you lightly.  Step hard and he would put holes in your leather boot (and possibly your feet).  I have seen the handler pull him up so far into a choke that Toby's feet were off the ground.  The handler stated there had been times when he actually had to choke Toby out.  Toby was attached to his handler, and quite protective.  He understood being reminded sometimes who the leader of the pack was.

Incidentlly, we also had a dog who if I remember correctly, had about 4 or 5 NVA kills in the field.  When you walked down the run, he would be in a  back corner of his cage, barking ferociously but not moving.  As soon as you moved on, you would hear him hit the cage door from a giant leap from the back of the cage.  Serious dog.  Guys in the field tended to love the handlers and their dogs.

All that to say I agree that the actions of the handler are not abusive.  I am not so supportive of the lease slaps.  It's not the normal way I ever saw dogs disciplined.  But I understand it might work.  And they didn't look like really hard hits.  More like you aren't listening when you know you should, _Pay Attention!_

Different dogs have different personalities, requiring different reinforcement.  And done correctly they understand they tried to challenge their handler (pack leader), and it didn't work.  No harm no foul.

Long story, just thought you might find it interesting.


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## Buka (May 6, 2014)

I agree with you guys. I think peoples misconceptions come from their love/knowledge of dogs strictly as pets. 
Martial Arts have become quite popular over the last few decades. if somebody walked by your house and saw you sparring with a friend in the yard, they'd probably realize exactly what was up. Maybe not so much years ago, they might have mistaken it for a fight. I think a lot of folks think along the same lines when they see videos like that.

Several of my friends are, or have been, K9 trainers and handlers. They love their dogs as much as anyone, but they are not pets. The animals are officers, soldiers, partners. Dogs are extremely adaptable. Some scientists have called the dog the single most successful parasite in the history of the animal kingdom. I took offense when I heard that, until they explained it. A dog will be anything we want them to be. We have bred a zillion different kinds, most with specialities. They'll hunt, swim, kill, run, find or track just about anything we teach them to. Or they'll hang around the house telling us we are the coolest thing they've ever seen. In return they get shelter, food, socialization, companionship, medical treatment, love and a bootload of cookies.


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## Brian King (May 6, 2014)

Warning- the sound of the video is NOT work safe.

Not abuse in my opinion. That said, in today's world of policing you cannot expect command to back up any action that might be interpreted as harsh. The rules are changing.


Regards
Brian King


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## Takai (May 6, 2014)

Having this same discussion with a friend on FB. It previous posters have stated it well it comes down to knowledge and perception. This is Spot or Fluffy on the end of that lease. This is a far different kind of animal and as such requires different methods. I would never use these techniques on my personal dog because...they aren't necessary to gain compliance. Verbal commands work very well for her but, she isn't an Alpha.

Unfortunately, given the emotional charges I see going on this officer may be headed for some trouble.


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## donald1 (May 7, 2014)

at the beginning of the movie, did he lift it up by the neck? for the most part it looked like he was playing with the dog(at least it looked like he was petting the dog)


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## K-man (May 7, 2014)

One part of this sort of training is the use of a tug toy. That is the reward for doing something. From the dogs point of view every part of the 'work' is really playing and being rewarded. I'm not sure that it isn't just a bit of rough play. I don't see any aggression from the handler and the dog walks off after with the tail wagging.
:asian:


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## Tgace (May 7, 2014)

My K9 experience is second hand, but I believe that when these high drive dogs refuse to follow commands and drop what's in their mouths....like a BG's limb...that lifting them by their collars like that (even to the extent of "choking out" if necessiary) is not an entirely uncommon practice. 

The necks on these dogs are STRONG. They are trained to drag down resisting human beings after all. If the dog doesn't obey the handler that needs to be addressed immediately with corrective action and the "BAD DOG!" lecture route doesn't work on these types of dogs. 

This is a classic case of people not knowing what they are looking at jumping to conclusions IMO. I don't know that this was the "best way" to handle this K9, but I'm not sold on the OMG ANIMAL ABUSE histrionics going on over this.

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## ballen0351 (May 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> My K9 experience is second hand, but I believe that when these high drive dogs refuse to follow commands and drop what's in their mouths....like a BG's limb...that lifting them by their collars like that (even to the extent of "choking out" if necessiary) is not an entirely uncommon practice.
> 
> The necks on these dogs are STRONG. They are trained to drag down resisting human beings after all. If the dog doesn't obey the handler that needs to be addressed immediately with corrective action and the "BAD DOG!" lecture route doesn't work on these types of dogs.
> 
> ...


Correct.  You lift the collar or lead with the collar behind the jaw.  Limiting the air passage.  Dog starts sounding like it's snoring until it releases the toy or arm or whatever.  When you have a dog trained to bite and your in a public place you need complete control or the dog.  It doesn't hurt the dog as soon as he releases you praise him up for the release.


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## AceHBK (May 7, 2014)

This is the problem when the dog and handler don't have a good relationship.   If a dog won't out then you need to work on the out. 

I've had high drive shepherds that had no problem outing.  Yes, choking a dog off the ball is a technique.  It could have been handled waaay better. 

Also, not every police k9 is a good dog.  Not all are super high drive.  The dog on a long leash going into the street had me cringe.  Wouldn't want him handling my shepherds.  I wouldn't say animal abuse but definitely the handler and dog need more training.


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## ballen0351 (May 7, 2014)

AceHBK said:


> This is the problem when the dog and handler don't have a good relationship.   If a dog won't out then you need to work on the out.
> 
> I've had high drive shepherds that had no problem outing.  Yes, choking a dog off the ball is a technique.  It could have been handled waaay better.
> 
> Also, not every police k9 is a good dog.  Not all are super high drive.  The dog on a long leash going into the street had me cringe.  Wouldn't want him handling my shepherds.  I wouldn't say animal abuse but definitely the handler and dog need more training.



Lol you have no idea what the relationship between the dog and his handler is from looking at a short clip on the internet.


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## AceHBK (May 7, 2014)

Sch is a sport and that's it.   Just for points and many dogs doing Sch couldn't make it a a police/military k9.  Many think Sch is harmful to dogs...lol.

Also, it is not hard to teach the out at a young age.  Actually it is EASIER to teach early rather than late.

He should have ran the dog back to the r and let it keep the ball.  I agree, in public it looks horrible.

Problem is that pretty much, police handlers are green.  Most get training when they join the team.  A dog trainer and dog handler are 2 different things.  Training dogs is easy.  Training humans is the worse.

Congrats on your GSD that you are getting.  It is extremely hard to find a quality shrpherd.  I've had 5 and only 1 was that right shepherd. Finding a honest breeder who knows pedigrees, trains and is actively working their dogs is like a needle in the haystack.


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## AceHBK (May 7, 2014)

You are correct.  I can only go by what I see.  There are things I see that haven't been mentioned that tell you about him and the dog. 

I train shepherds.  I import mine from Czech Republic and austria.  I read and understand pedigrees of dogs.  First shepherd I owned I trained and is working in a prison.  I spend time training.  

I maybe wrong and no one knows but the handler and dog.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was.


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## ballen0351 (May 7, 2014)

AceHBK said:


> You are correct.  I can only go by what I see.  There are things I see that haven't been mentioned that tell you about him and the dog.
> 
> I train shepherds.  I import mine from Czech Republic and austria.  I read and understand pedigrees of dogs.  First shepherd I owned I trained and is working in a prison.  I spend time training.
> 
> I maybe wrong and no one knows but the handler and dog.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was.



Then you would know that dogs just like people have bad days some times.  Days where no matter how great your relationship is they still say screw it I'm not dropping the ball.  I also trained and handled police K9 from all over Europe and the only thing I agree with was the dog near the street.  The rest your making a huge leap


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## AceHBK (May 7, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> When you have a dog trained to bite and your in a public place you need complete control or the dog.  It doesn't hurt the dog as soon as he releases you praise him up for the release.



I agree and add that EVERY dog no matter the breed should be trained to be under complete control while in public.  It's not just Foret human safety but dog safety. 

I have to respectfully  disagree with it not hurting the dog ...choking it out.  Yes it hurts the dog which is why they spot it out.   Cut off oxygen by hanging the dog hurts the dog.  How severe?  Depends on the pain tolerance of the dog.

The method is negative reinforcement.  Dog doesn't want to out on command then you add pressure.  While you have the dog up he should be giving his command word to out.  Once the dog releases it needs an immediate yes and gets the ball.

When the dog doesn't get it back,  you create conflict.   Now when the dogs does get the object they are more reluctant to give it up because the handler won't reward for letting go.

Hence difference between trainers and handlers.  

This is just my opinion.  Get 3 dog trainers in a room and only thing they agree on is what the other is doing wrong. ..lol.


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## AceHBK (May 7, 2014)

I agree dogs can have bad days.  You try to minimize those days worn solid foundation.  But what I see is a dog with high ball drive who has outing issues.  Outing where here that can cause a court case.  

If he can't or that dog then he needs a back up...e-collar.


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## Tgace (May 7, 2014)

Y'all can argue "best practices" if ya want, but the main point is that this handler has been suspended and all sorts of people with zero K9 experience are saying stuff like "fire him".."charge him with assaulting an officer"...and worse. While it may be arguable that his approach could have been better I don't believe what's happening to this cop is warranted.

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## jks9199 (May 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> Y'all can argue "best practices" if ya want, but the main point is that this handler has been suspended and all sorts of people with zero K9 experience are saying stuff like "fire him".."charge him with assaulting an officer"...and worse. While it may be arguable that his approach could have been better I don't believe what's happening to this cop is warranted.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



I'm far from a K9 expert.  But I don't see anything horrible here; it doesn't look pretty, and it may not be "best practice".  It may or may not be consistent with the handler's training and the policies of the agency.  I don't know; I'm not privy to them.

But the handler's been placed on some sort of suspension or imposed leave.  His command staff has come out in public, damning him.  The investigation is probably far from complete -- but his bosses have thrown him under the bus.  The suspension/leave during an investigation is reasonable and sometimes required.  The commentary was not; "we are reviewing the incident to see if what the camera captured was within our policy and the handler's training, and whether we need to review our policies and training."  Much better, and doesn't throw anyone under the bus.

I'm certainly glad I don't work for them.


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## donnaTKD (May 8, 2014)

can't believe that they're gunna fire him for that --- the guys in charge obviously don't know what they're doing and quite frankly i wouldn't want to be involved with that PD either.

that video clip was rough play at worst for a job well done - nothing more and nothing less.  i've got a high drive pure bred border collie (see avatar) and i've corrected him this way many a time - some people think that i'm being cruel until they see how well behaved / mannered and quiet he really is.

my dogs an alpha and they need "knocking down" a peg or three now and again just to prove that you rule and not them.  it's the pack hierarchy you come first then it's them and they understand perfectly what's going on.  all the comments about abuse come from people that have no idea wtf is actually happening - if the handler didn't do that then there would come a point where the dog wasn't just unsafe it would be a liability to everyone.  the dog needs to know where it stands and the structures that are in place and the rules of the job / game etc....... 

hate people that call this abuse - the dog is well cared for / fed / housed / trained (which is more than i can say for some) and knows the rules cos it was raised in a structured programme.

these so called do-gooders need to get a life..........

just my opinion

donna


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