# Censorship



## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).

I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


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## Flying Crane (May 24, 2022)

The Ignore button is your friend.  Use it where you feel it is appropriate.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

Back before I was a mod there were a few. Most are no longer on here. I removed everyone from my ignore list though a couple months after becoming a mod-coincidentally those were the people reports were coming in about the most, and I needed to be able to read/understand context of any given report. 

Before that though, my main motivation was my own sense of calm. Certain posters would just irk me, especially when I knew that they understand something and are purposefully being thick about it. Was just easier to not read it, and chuckle at the others still arguing with them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Back before I was a mod there were a few. Most are no longer on here. I removed everyone from my ignore list though a couple months after becoming a mod-coincidentally those were the people reports were coming in about the most, and I needed to be able to read/understand context of any given report.
> 
> Before that though, my main motivation was my own sense of calm. Certain posters would just irk me, especially when I knew that they understand something and are purposefully being thick about it. Was just easier to not read it, and chuckle at the others still arguing with them.


I don't think I ever kept anyone on for more than 6 months at a time though. There's always the chance someone will come back around and be more beneficial to discussions, and not giving the chance to find that out hurts the blocker, not the blockee.


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## Flying Crane (May 24, 2022)

I don’t take anyone off Ignore once I put them on.  I don’t put them on until I am convinced we cannot have a meaningful and respectful interaction.  Then I’m done.  No reason to go back.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

I have a few on ignore, and there they will stay. However I only put folks on ignore that I feel have absolutely nothing to add of use to any conversation. I also use it at time as a temporary break for folks who are annoying me, and likely I am annoying them too. But they come off because, in the long run, they do contribute much to MT


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## Holmejr (May 24, 2022)

Am I wrong in thinking that this a privately owned/ran forum and aren’t there moderators that police the content? My thought is that if the moderator allow a post then it’s allowed and it is up to me to ignore or not. Also , Everybody wears different panties of sensitivity and I find over sensitivity just as perturbing. Maybe ones MA doesn’t culture the balance and calmness they claim it does….I know mine doesn’t. Lol!


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Back before I was a mod there were a few. Most are no longer on here. I removed everyone from my ignore list though a couple months after becoming a mod-coincidentally those were the people reports were coming in about the most, and I needed to be able to read/understand context of any given report.
> 
> Before that though, my main motivation was my own sense of calm. Certain posters would just irk me, especially when I knew that they understand something and are purposefully being thick about it. Was just easier to not read it, and chuckle at the others still arguing with them.


What kind of posts irk you? The ones that wind me up are simply an avenue to blow the posters own trumpet…show they have some knowledge even if it’s only slightly relevant. 

You must have the patience of a saint to me a moderator 😇


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that this a privately owned/ran forum and aren’t there moderators that police the content? My thought is that if the moderator allow a post then it’s allowed and it is up to me to ignore or not. Also , Everybody wears different panties of sensitivity and I find over sensitivity just as perturbing. Maybe ones MA doesn’t culture the balance and calmness they claim it does….I know mine doesn’t. Lol!


I assume they’re ensuring the posts don’t violate the forum rules rather than display intelligence, critical analysis and a vague sense of humility😀


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## Steve (May 24, 2022)

I know I’m on some folk’s ignore lists, and for people who need it, I’m glad the function is there.  I think who people ignore and how they go about it is pretty interesting and informative. 

My belief is most of the time, when someone puts someone on their permanent ignore list, it’s because they were confronted with a hard truth about themselves and they didn’t like it.  If you think you’re open minded and someone challenges that, or if you think you’re a fighter, or if you think you’re an expert on some thing or other… and someone suggests maybe you’re not as expert as you think or maybe you have a gaping blind spot.   Nobody likes that, but it says a lot to me about their character how they respond to it.

We have some folks here who are, frankly, delusional.  They have created an internal fiction.  And mostly, that’s harmless.  The stakes are pretty low.  

For my part, I will mute some folks from time to time, but generally not longer than a few weeks.  I like to read all the posts, even the ones with which I disagree.


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> I know I’m on some folk’s ignore lists, and for people who need it, I’m glad the function is there.  I think who people ignore and how they go about it is pretty interesting and informative.
> 
> My belief is most of the time, when someone puts someone on their permanent ignore list, it’s because they were confronted with a hard truth about themselves and they didn’t like it.  If you think you’re open minded and someone challenges that, or if you think you’re a fighter, or if you think you’re an expert on some thing or other… and someone suggests maybe you’re not as expert as you think or maybe you have a gaping blind spot.   Nobody likes that, but it says a lot to me about their character how they respond to it.
> 
> ...


Sorry Steve, I can’t see your post 😉

The two people who received my blocks did so because of responses to other people’s posts: they were just…’silly’! I also dislike people who are rude or disparaging in their responses. You can disagree politely, after all.


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## Steve (May 24, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Sorry Steve, I can’t see your post 😉
> 
> The two people who received my blocks did so because of responses to other people’s posts: they were just…’silly’! I also dislike people who are rude or disparaging in their responses. You can disagree politely, after all.


Fair enough.  To clarify, I think it’s useful, and use it myself.  But I’m generally distrustful of people who see the world in terms of absolutes, regardless of the context. So statements like “for life” and “permanent”, “don’t ever” are red flags for me.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> What kind of posts irk you? The ones that wind me up are simply an avenue to blow the posters own trumpet…show they have some knowledge even if it’s only slightly relevant.
> 
> You must have the patience of a saint to me a moderator 😇


For me it's the one where I see someone argue or ask questions as if they don't know the other side...but I know that they definitely do since they've had the same argument 20 other times and have acknowledged the other side at some point.

And then also the ones that are just insanely rude. The good thing about being a mod though-I can report those and try to convince the other mods that person deserves some action for being an ***.


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## Oily Dragon (May 24, 2022)

Objection!


Just trying to be funny.


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> So statements like “for life” and “permanent”, “don’t ever” are red flags for me.


“I pledge my allegiance to the flag, for life.” “Eating food is a permanent habit.” “I don’t ever lie”…OK, one of those is not true😀😑


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## granfire (May 24, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


the poster I found objectionable has not been seen for a number of years here.
but yes, I think I had one on ignore.

As far as other social media goes: 
in that big wall of legalese text you agree to adhere to a set of rules put forth by the platform. You can't abide by them, you get TOSsed. 
I know, most of us never read the stuff, nor would we understand it if we did, but that does not rescue us from the consequences. 
As long as the internet is not a public utility, the outlets are private platforms. There is no first amendment right there. Like you can't demonstrate in the mall. While the public has access, it is a private place (Vs Mainstreet, downtown) 

The thought of absolute freedom of speech does not take into account modern media, the access it has and the shortfalls of it. 
And we have long since crossed the Delaware on this by no longer demanding that 'news' was that, and not a biased heap of road apples. 
We have been seeing a huge influx of disinformation attacks on western democracies. This hurts us. 
So removing somebody's access to SM when they A) do not follow the rules (but expect others to) and B) hurt the community I think it's a good thing. 
(Funny enough, the people who scream the most about certain public figures being removed from a SM site are the first ones to kick people who do not think like them from their platforms)


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> For me it's the one where I see someone argue or ask questions as if they don't know the other side...but I know that they definitely do since they've had the same argument 20 other times and have acknowledged the other side at some point.


That can be part of the Socratic Method, however😑. I’m going to block myself for saying that so smugly


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

granfire said:


> the poster I found objectionable has not been seen for a number of years here.
> but yes, I think I had one on ignore.


I bet they had the type of face one would never tire of slapping😐😃


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## granfire (May 24, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I bet they had the type of face one would never tire of slapping😐😃


well, it made me want to slap William Shattner...if that helps. 
Interestingly enough the FB presence also seized years back, making one wonder if they were a disinformation troll to test out waters.....


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> I know I’m on some folk’s ignore lists, and for people who need it, I’m glad the function is there.  I think who people ignore and how they go about it is pretty interesting and informative.
> 
> My belief is most of the time, when someone puts someone on their permanent ignore list, it’s because they were confronted with a hard truth about themselves and they didn’t like it.  If you think you’re open minded and someone challenges that, or if you think you’re a fighter, or if you think you’re an expert on some thing or other… and someone suggests maybe you’re not as expert as you think or maybe you have a gaping blind spot.   Nobody likes that, but it says a lot to me about their character how they respond to it.
> 
> ...



Well that direct attack upon me and my post constitutes you joining my PERMANENT ignore list 

@Steve 
If you are contraindicated in every single post arguing against things you never said and it is obvious the attacker is not reading what you posted and refuses to read what you posted all they are doing is trolling and not worth reading. Or they have decided to make you a target and report virtually all post you make, no matter how unfounded it may be, there is no longer any reason to deal with them. Or they once argued vehemently against what you said only to later claim exactly what you said as their own..... I do not believe they are worth dealing with.... There are multiple reasons for someone to put a person on ignore for the duration beyond being "confronted with the hard truth".


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## MetalBoar (May 24, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


I've blocked one person permanently and that's it.  He was nuts and has since been kicked off the board.  For a long time I didn't think I'd have a reason to block anyone but I genuinely believe this guy had real issues and he was semi fixated on me in one thread.  Really he was fixated on Jobo (who I'm guessing was probably on a lot of peoples' block list and doesn't appear to be here anymore) and for some reason decided I was Jobo using a second account.  Didn't need to hear anything that dude had to say.

EDIT TO ADD:  There are people who's posts don't thrill me but I've found that even though I know what they're going to say 8-9 times out of 10 they do occasionally surprise me with a really well thought out post.  It's worth it to sort through the annoying or repetitive to get that nugget, plus blocking can make threads kind of incoherent through lack of context.


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## Steve (May 24, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well that direct attack upon me and my post constitutes you joining my PERMANENT ignore list
> 
> @Steve
> If you are contraindicated in every single post arguing against things you never said and it is obvious the attacker is not reading what you posted and refuses to read what you posted all they are doing is trolling and not worth reading. Or they have decided to make you a target and report virtually all post you make, no matter how unfounded it may be, there is no longer any reason to deal with them. Or they once argued vehemently against what you said only to later claim exactly what you said as their own..... I do not believe they are worth dealing with.... There are multiple reasons for someone to put a person on ignore for the duration beyond being "confronted with the hard truth".


I hear you.  It’s all about your individual outlook.  I’m sharing my own opinions, and they’re no more right or wrong than anyone else’s. 

I will say regarding trolls, I don’t think anyone who is here for more than a year or so is a troll.  At least, not the way I think about trolls.  I think folks who have been around for a while just simply disagree with each other, and sometimes those disagreements are irreconcilable on beliefs that are deeply held.  

So what feels like someone trolling you probably feels to them like you trolling them.  I find that this helps me cut through presumptions and emotions related to intent. 

Anyway, too philosophical. My other rule, which I’m breaking now, is to stick to jokes because sharing what I actually think makes some folks sad.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> I hear you.  It’s all about your individual outlook.  I’m sharing my own opinions, and they’re no more right or wrong than anyone else’s.
> 
> I will say regarding trolls, I don’t think anyone who is here for more than a year or so is a troll.  At least, not the way I think about trolls.  I think folks who have been around for a while just simply disagree with each other, and sometimes those disagreements are irreconcilable on beliefs that are deeply held.
> 
> ...



Well, all that proves is I was right adding you to my ignore list


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## Steve (May 24, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well, all that proves is I was right adding you to my ignore list


A safe bet, for sure.


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## Dirty Dog (May 24, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that this a privately owned/ran forum and aren’t there moderators that police the content? My thought is that if the moderator allow a post then it’s allowed and it is up to me to ignore or not. Also , Everybody wears different panties of sensitivity and I find over sensitivity just as perturbing. Maybe ones MA doesn’t culture the balance and calmness they claim it does….I know mine doesn’t. Lol!


It is privately owned, and yes, there is a staff that monitors. However...
We do not necessarily read every post on the forum. Generally speaking, we do not moderate the content of posts. If a post violates the Terms of Service, as determined by a consensus of the staff, the poster will be given a warning. That warning may have points attached. Earn too many points, and your account can be temporarily or permanently banned.


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## Gyakuto (May 24, 2022)

…and another ignore…


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I've blocked one person permanently and that's it.  He was nuts and has since been kicked off the board.  For a long time I didn't think I'd have a reason to block anyone but I genuinely believe this guy had real issues and he was semi fixated on me in one thread.  Really he was fixated on Jobo (who I'm guessing was probably on a lot of peoples' block list and doesn't appear to be here anymore) and for some reason decided I was Jobo using a second account.  Didn't need to hear anything that dude had to say.


I recall that person. He made a couple fake accounts trying to get at jobo, if I'm remembering right we ended up banning his IP and he just moved to a vpn, stopped at some point though, probably because we'd just autoban if we believed a new account was him again. Definitely a smart one to block.


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## _Simon_ (May 24, 2022)

I can't see a single post in this thread.... !


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## Dirty Dog (May 24, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> I can't see a single post in this thread.... !


I censored them all.


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## _Simon_ (May 24, 2022)

But seriously, no I haven't ever put anyone on ignore, but I totally understand why people do. I've been close to it though... but thought I'd wait it out with those people and see what happens.

It's been a great practice in seeing what emotional reaction comes up within me upon reading some approaches and outlooks... a valuable exercise in self-inquiry 

But that being said... some people I have found near IMPOSSIBLE to have a conversation with 🤣


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I censored them all.



I'd censor you too.... If I could...bacon pusher


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## Buka (May 24, 2022)

I put myself on ignore once, I damn near melted into a puddle of bacon drippings.


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## MadMartigan (May 24, 2022)

I've definitely put some people on ignore. 1 eventually came off after I checked and saw some decent posts. 
For me it is always about disrespect. If someone is combative and rude... looking to argue rather than discuss, then I have better things to do than read what they have to say. Even though it may not be directed at me, seeing blatant disrespect for other (especially proven experts in their field) just makes me mad... and I don't want to bring extra anger into my world. As a quote I once read said (words to the effect of), 'the purpose of the martial arts is to bring the practitioner to peace'. If one person in a thread is taking away from that peace, then it's Ignore time.


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## Oily Dragon (May 25, 2022)

I made up 3 general rules for social media.  I chose the number three because it's small and I can remember about three things at a time.

1, laugh, it's all fun, even if it doesn't seem that way.

2, don't take no **** from anybody.  See 1.

3, when it comes to martial arts, if you're in this for the long game, we'll all be _combate _for some time, so get used to the feeling.  See 2, then 1.


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## jks9199 (May 25, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> Am I wrong in thinking that this a privately owned/ran forum and aren’t there moderators that police the content? My thought is that if the moderator allow a post then it’s allowed and it is up to me to ignore or not. Also , Everybody wears different panties of sensitivity and I find over sensitivity just as perturbing. Maybe ones MA doesn’t culture the balance and calmness they claim it does….I know mine doesn’t. Lol!


Our Moderation philosophy is to use as light a touch as we can.  Many times, a Mod (or even Mentors) will post in a thread to try to calm it down or pull it back on track.  Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes not so much.  We can escalate, all the way up to banning a member if needed -- but we don't discuss actions taken against any member with anyone but that member.   Praise in public, punish in private.


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## Instructor (May 26, 2022)

While a few folks have rubbed me the wrong way a time or two I've never felt the need to block or ignore anybody here.  At worst I just take a day or two off from MT and read a book.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


I used the ignore function sporadically before I was a mod. There was one poster who stayed on ignore for about a year. Others, I moved to ignore when they kept repeating the same argument, refusing to engage any contradictory thought in a meaninful way. But I'm also a bit of a bulldog about what I see as erroneous logic, strawmen, and just plain misinformation - I have trouble letting those things go, if only so someone reading the thread later will see a counterpoint, rather than seeing an unchallenged opinion. Sometimes I just used ignore to get my brain to stop participating.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> I know I’m on some folk’s ignore lists, and for people who need it, I’m glad the function is there.  I think who people ignore and how they go about it is pretty interesting and informative.
> 
> My belief is most of the time, when someone puts someone on their permanent ignore list, it’s because they were confronted with a hard truth about themselves and they didn’t like it.  If you think you’re open minded and someone challenges that, or if you think you’re a fighter, or if you think you’re an expert on some thing or other… and someone suggests maybe you’re not as expert as you think or maybe you have a gaping blind spot.   Nobody likes that, but it says a lot to me about their character how they respond to it.
> 
> ...


Not everyone consistently brings value. Some have brought value sporadically, but were more often either sowing misinformation and ill-considered thoughts, or were just trying to be controversial. I imagine those folks ended up on a lot of permanent ignore lists, without ever having presented some hard truth - often they presented hard-to-understand untruths.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> A safe bet, for sure.


I've always ignored you. My post count reflects that.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> But that being said... some people I have found near IMPOSSIBLE to have a conversation with 🤣


Yeah, well right back at you!! 

(Or maybe I should back off the coffee when the paranoia starts?)


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## Gerry Seymour (May 26, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> Our Moderation philosophy is to use as light a touch as we can.  Many times, a Mod (or even Mentors) will post in a thread to try to calm it down or pull it back on track.  Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes not so much.  We can escalate, all the way up to banning a member if needed -- but we don't discuss actions taken against any member with anyone but that member.   Praise in public, punish in private.


And I'll add that many times, one of us will report a post so we can all monitor the thread and discuss it, then we often (often including the original reporter) decide the post/user hasn't yet crossed the line. That's part of the light touch.


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## Steve (May 26, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Not everyone consistently brings value. Some have brought value sporadically, but were more often either sowing misinformation and ill-considered thoughts, or were just trying to be controversial. I imagine those folks ended up on a lot of permanent ignore lists, without ever having presented some hard truth - often they presented hard-to-understand untruths.


We can agree or not on whether someone is bringing value to the site.  But that’s a different discussion than whether someone is trolling or not.

I think some of well regarded posters on this site sow misinformation and Ill-considered thoughts from time to time.   I don’t think those folks should be banned or binned nor do I think they are trolls. I just think they’re misinformed.

Here's the thing.  You guys like to pigeonhole people.  If you're deemed worthy, when you disagree with folks, you're simply explaining truths.  When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback.  A wake up call, I think is how it's described.   When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you.

When you're deemed unworthy and you disagree with folks, you are trolling.  When you call someone an idiot, you are violating the TOS.  When you say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative. 

Same posts, same language, same actions, but handled very differently depending on whether you are pigeonholed as "valuable" or a troublemaker.

The real point I'm trying to make here is that it's a matter of perspective.  I don't expect you to understand what I'm trying to say, and certainly don't expect you to change.  It's your site, and you'll manage it however you like.   I just simply don't think anyone who has been around for a while is here to "troll" or be a nuisance.  They may not be knowledgeable.  They may not add a lot of "value".  But that's not the same thing.  And often, new folks come on the site and chased off before we can even get to know them one way or the other.


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## Xue Sheng (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> The real point I'm trying to make here is that it's a matter of perspective.  I don't expect you to understand what I'm trying to say, and certainly don't expect you to change.  It's your site, and you'll manage it however you like.   I just simply don't think anyone who has been around for a while is here to "troll" or be a nuisance.  They may not be knowledgeable.  They may not add a lot of "value".  But that's not the same thing.  *And often, new folks come on the site and chased off before we can even get to know them one way or the other.*


If I didn't have you on ignore I'd respond to all this...but this one above in bold, may have happened this week because the OP was instantaneously attacked for his opinion, based on his experience, I do not think any of those who attacked are trolls, and they do contribute a lot, I just think one started and the fray began.... but I have been here on MT for darn near 16 years and there are those came here mainly to argue and disrupt and when they start arguing points that were never made in the first place.... and it happens...use to happen more...they are not contributing.... they are here to disrupt...and they also have chased very good posters away


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## Tony Dismukes (May 26, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> we don't discuss actions taken against any member with anyone but that member. Praise in public, punish in private.





Steve said:


> If you're deemed worthy, when you disagree with folks, you're simply explaining truths. When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback. A wake up call, I think is how it's described. When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you.
> 
> When you're deemed unworthy and you disagree with folks, you are trolling. When you call someone an idiot, you are violating the TOS. When you say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative.


I wanted to put these quotes together because they reflect an not uncommon situation we encounter during moderation.

During the course of a discussion (or a series of discussions) things start to get heated between members A and B. Inappropriate language is used, behavior starts to push the bounds of the terms of service.

Usually by this time the mods are monitoring the situation and may drop a public "play nice" warning into the thread. However things don't cool down and we collectively decide that one or more parties have crossed the line sufficiently so that they have to receive consequences, which can range from a simple warning, to points on a members record, to a temporary suspension, or even a permanent ban. So we go to member A with a message saying "your behavior in this thread violates the following rules, you are receiving the following consequences." (This will usually be just a warning for first offenses unless the behavior is really egregious.) Very often the reaction we get from member A is that we are playing favorites, that member B's behavior was much worse, obviously we are prejudiced against A and we like B better. (This is particularly likely if A and B have a long-term pattern of getting on each other's nerves.)

The thing is, as jks9199 said, we don't discuss disciplinary actions with anyone except the affected person. For all A knows, we actually handed out a much stiffer punishment to B. Sometimes that is exactly what has happened. We will not announce this publicly. If A and B are being jerks to each other, then we are not going to tell everyone that "A was x bad, but B was 2x bad." Each person will be told what they need to work on and that is what they personally need to work on. If a member feels that they can't stay within the bounds of civility due to another member's posts, then they can ignore them either with the forum feature which allows them to do that automatically or by exercising enough self-control to skip past those posts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wanted to put these quotes together because they reflect an not uncommon situation we encounter during moderation.
> 
> During the course of a discussion (or a series of discussions) things start to get heated between members A and B. Inappropriate language is used, behavior starts to push the bounds of the terms of service.
> 
> ...


Just to add to this, often we will get accusations from both A and B that we are playing favorites against the other one. Which wouldn't really make sense for us to be playing favorites in opposite directions.


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## Xue Sheng (May 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Just to add to this, often we will get accusations from both A and B that we are playing favorites against the other one. Which wouldn't really make sense for us to be playing favorites in opposite directions.



Yes, there was a period here n MT when if one started arguing, you could be certain that 2 or 3 more would jump on...ad it was always the same group of 3 or 4 total. Yet 2 of those contribute to MT and one has contributed a lot over the years. All by the way were on my ignore list, 2 temporarily, I needed a break from them...and likely they needed a break from me.... and 2 permanently


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> My belief is most of the time, when someone puts someone on their permanent ignore list, it’s because they were confronted with a hard truth about themselves and they didn’t like it. If you think you’re open minded and someone challenges that, or if you think you’re a fighter, or if you think you’re an expert on some thing or other… and someone suggests maybe you’re not as expert as you think or maybe you have a gaping blind spot. Nobody likes that, but it says a lot to me about their character how they respond to it.





Steve said:


> If you're deemed worthy, when you disagree with folks, you're simply explaining truths. When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback. A wake up call, I think is how it's described. When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you.
> 
> When you're deemed unworthy and you disagree with folks, you are trolling. When you call someone an idiot, you are violating the TOS. When you say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative.





Steve said:


> I think folks who have been around for a while just simply disagree with each other, and sometimes those disagreements are irreconcilable on beliefs that are deeply held.
> 
> So what feels like someone trolling you probably feels to them like you trolling them. I find that this helps me cut through presumptions and emotions related to intent.


I'm putting these three quotes together because I think that they help to illustrate a common phenomenon. We all have a natural tendency to see things just from our own perspective. So that middle quote, if you set aside opinions regarding the moderation team, could easily be reworded to say 

_"From your own perspective, you're simply explaining truths. When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback. A wake up call, I think is how it's described. When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you.

When someone else refuses to accept the truths you have so patiently explained, they are trolling. When they call someone an idiot, they are violating the TOS. When they say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative."_

I don't want to put myself forward as some sort of model for social interaction, because I spent a good portion of my adult life making stupid social mistakes and struggling to develop basic social skills. However I have noticed something. In a lot of these heated discussions which we have had on this forum over the years, there have been many, many times when members A and B are arguing vociferously on a matter, not just contradicting each other, but accusing each other of bad faith and throwing in everything short of "yo mama" jokes. Then I'll add a post explaining my two cents worth on the topic. And *both* A and B (or C and D or however many people are busy throwing poo at each other) will hit "Like" or "Agree" or some other  positive reaction to my post. Then they'll go back to telling each other why the other person is completely wrong. This seems a bit odd. How can they completely disagree with each other, but both agree with me at the same time?

I don't think this is because I'm some sort of super-charismatic figure that anyone would want to suck up to. It's certainly not because I'm being wishy-washy or vague in what I write. I'm coming up on 41 years in the martial arts and I am easily as opinionated on the subject as anyone else here. But there are a few things I try to do which may help me get along in discussions with fewer escalated arguments.


I generally write with the assumption that the other person is trying to communicate in good faith. This isn't always the case. We do get people showing up who are here to deliberately troll. These individuals will eventually get banned. In the meantime, it doesn't really hurt to treat them as sincere.
I try not to assume that I correctly understand the other person's meaning, especially if my immediate perception of that meaning is one which would make the other person out to be an idiot or a jerk. I find it's worthwhile to re-read everything they've said with the most generous interpretation possible and ask questions to make sure I really do understand where they're coming from.
If I can get out of my own head into someone else's perspective for a little bit (even if I overall disagree with it), it gives me a better chance of explaining things in a way which makes sense to them.
I remember the cautionary tale of this gentleman:


 I have my opinions on what is more effective and less effective in martial arts training for various purposes. I can respectfully offer those opinions and any supporting evidence I happen to have when they are relevant to the discussion at hand and people can decide what value they want to give to those opinions and evidence. If they think  I'm completely wrong, so be it. Unless you're one of the small handful of MT members I've met in person, I might be a basement-dwelling internet fantasist with no actual training for all you know. In any case, just repeatedly telling someone that they're wrong doesn't have a high likelihood of causing them to stop being wrong unless I can come up with something more persuasive than lecturing them about "hard truths."
In my experience, even people who I think are mostly wrong about most things may have some unexpected gems of wisdom or useful information if I care to listen respectfully. If I have the choice between spending my time explaining why they are wrong about 90% of everything or discovering the 10% of cool stuff I can learn from them, I know which is more valuable to me. Heck, occasionally I discover that I have to radically re-evaluate those percentages.


----------



## Steve (May 26, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wanted to put these quotes together because they reflect an not uncommon situation we encounter during moderation.
> 
> During the course of a discussion (or a series of discussions) things start to get heated between members A and B. Inappropriate language is used, behavior starts to push the bounds of the terms of service.
> 
> ...


to clarify, I'm talking about in the body of the threads, not behind the scenes, using Gerry's post as an example of how folks make assumptions about intent.  I hope that makes sense.  The things I referred to in my post are done by moderators in the threads.  Not trying to make a big deal out of this. As I said, it's your house to manage how you see fit.  But just trying to clarify that I am not speaking to what you do behind the scenes, and am talking about what you post in the public forum.  "You" as in moderation, not you specifically, Tony.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> to clarify, I'm talking about in the body of the threads, not behind the scenes, using Gerry's post as an example of how folks make assumptions about intent.  I hope that makes sense.  The things I referred to in my post are done by moderators in the threads.  Not trying to make a big deal out of this. As I said, it's your house to manage how you see fit.  But just trying to clarify that I am not speaking to what you do behind the scenes, and am talking about what you post in the public forum.  "You" as in moderation, not you specifically, Tony.


Something else to keep in mind is when we post, we're just posters. Unless we're posting a direct warning (and then it's mostly random who posts it after we all agree), our individual posts and opinions about posters are just like anyone elses. The thing is we don't all have the same opinions, and try to put our own opinions aside when we do actual moderating actions. If we can't, either because we're involved or we have some sort of bias for/against one of the people in the threads, we recuse ourselves from the discussion.


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## Steve (May 26, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm putting these three quotes together because I think that they help to illustrate a common phenomenon. We all have a natural tendency to see things just from our own perspective. So that middle quote, if you set aside opinions regarding the moderation team, could easily be reworded to say
> 
> _"From your own perspective, you're simply explaining truths. When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback. A wake up call, I think is how it's described. When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you._



Since the quotes were all mine, I'll try to respond (but briefly).  To be clear, I don't think calling someone an idiot is ever a good idea.  However, some folks can do it and in the thread are supported by members of the administrative team.  Other folks would be taken to task (appropriately, IMO, whether it's me or someone else). 

Members of the moderation team often tell other people that they are trolling or being intentionally argumentative or grinding an axe.  I don't think that's ever a good idea, and we should always try to presume good will.  Easier said than done, I know. 

So, my point wasn't to justify poor behavior.  It was to point out that there is disparate treatment in threads, in the public forum.  

I hope that if you consider my earlier points with this in mind, you will see that what I was getting at is essentially what you're talking about below, though you did a really nice job of saying it. 



Tony Dismukes said:


> _When someone else refuses to accept the truths you have so patiently explained, they are trolling. When they call someone an idiot, they are violating the TOS. When they say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative."_
> 
> I don't want to put myself forward as some sort of model for social interaction, because I spent a good portion of my adult life making stupid social mistakes and struggling to develop basic social skills. However I have noticed something. In a lot of these heated discussions which we have had on this forum over the years, there have been many, many times when members A and B are arguing vociferously on a matter, not just contradicting each other, but accusing each other of bad faith and throwing in everything short of "yo mama" jokes. Then I'll add a post explaining my two cents worth on the topic. And *both* A and B (or C and D or however many people are busy throwing poo at each other) will hit "Like" or "Agree" or some other  positive reaction to my post. Then they'll go back to telling each other why the other person is completely wrong. This seems a bit odd. How can they completely disagree with each other, but both agree with me at the same time?
> 
> ...


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## Steve (May 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Something else to keep in mind is when we post, we're just posters. Unless we're posting a direct warning (and then it's mostly random who posts it after we all agree), our individual posts and opinions about posters are just like anyone elses. The thing is we don't all have the same opinions, and try to put our own opinions aside when we do actual moderating actions. If we can't, either because we're involved or we have some sort of bias for/against one of the people in the threads, we recuse ourselves from the discussion.


Yeah, I do disagree a little bit on this one, in that as long as you have that title under your name, you are not posting as "just" a poster.  We can just disagree on this one, but I don't think you'll ever convince me that moderators and mentors don't set the tone around here.  I believe you do, whether you like it or not.  Think of it like the debate sparked by Charles Barkley's quote, "I am not a role model."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, I do disagree a little bit on this one, in that as long as you have that title under your name, you are not posting as "just" a poster.  We can just disagree on this one, but I don't think you'll ever convince me that moderators and mentors don't set the tone around here.  I believe you do, whether you like it or not.  Think of it like the debate sparked by Charles Barkley's quote, "I am not a role model."


I think that's a difference between moderators and mentors. As a mod, I moderate things. As a mentor, they're role models.

I get not everyone thinks that way, and I do my best to keep that in mind when I post. But, we're all human and _errare est humanum_.

I also get when other mods don't, because of the thing you originally quoted, so I don't hold that against them.

That said, I think this is one of those situations where we both understand each other's viewpoint perfectly well, and there's not a lot of change/convincing we can do from discussing (though it could always change from time).


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## Steve (May 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think that's a difference between moderators and mentors. As a mod, I moderate things. As a mentor, they're role models.
> 
> I get not everyone thinks that way, and I do my best to keep that in mind when I post. But, we're all human and _errare est humanum_.
> 
> ...


We don't need to agree.  It's okay.

I have to laugh, though.  I thought about a thread 6 months or a year from now on this same subject (you know it will happen eventually).   When it does, and you say this same thing, I promise I will not presume you're trolling the thread or grinding the axe.  Please do the same for me when I inevitably say the same thing, too.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, I do disagree a little bit on this one, in that as long as you have that title under your name, you are not posting as "just" a poster.  We can just disagree on this one, but I don't think you'll ever convince me that moderators and mentors don't set the tone around here.  I believe you do, whether you like it or not.  Think of it like the debate sparked by Charles Barkley's quote, "I am not a role model."


Yeah, it's kind of a tricky area. Ideally we would have professional moderators whose only job would be to keep things running smoothly. What we have is people who are willing to volunteer because they care about the site and want to help it out. Due to the nature of that selection pool, we generally get moderators who want to be involved in the public discussions and they have opinions just like everyone else - including sometime "you're wrong", "you're not being reasonable", or "you're trolling." It's worth noting that if a moderator is involved in a discussion, they will not be the one making any final decisions regarding disciplinary actions or issuing those consequences. It's also worth noting that just because a moderator is participating in a discussion telling you that you're wrong about something it doesn't mean that the other moderators necessary agree with them on that particular subject.

We do ask that moderators try to uphold the standards of behavior we require of everyone else. (We've even had moderators report themselves when they know they've pushed the line on what they should have been saying.)


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## drop bear (May 28, 2022)

I don't put people on ignore. I think going on a discussion forum and then only receiving feed back that makes me comfortable is intellectual cowardice.


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## Unkogami (May 31, 2022)

granfire said:


> well, it made me want to slap William Shattner...if that helps.
> Interestingly enough the FB presence also seized years back, making one wonder if they were a disinformation troll to test out waters.....


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


I don't have anything to say hear as I've been objectionable at times. But if you ask a question remember that most online answers have three parts. One is train of thought because most people don't communicate like a research paper. Second is personal references because we're all not built the same in martial arts so they might take you down a winding road of experiences. And third is the material they have asked a question on might be incredibly dense and with that they might be an expert or a novice so there opinions on what is is prevalent might be a sentence or a book being abbreviated for content. After you decifer weather or not an answer is trolling or a hookup you can then decide what to do but no post is worth blocking or dismantling too much because you have the option of deleting your posts in a thread and moving along happy go lucky. And it no longer effects you. Just a fyi.


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2022)

I've blocked a couple of posters, but my usual thing is to just outlast them, they leave eventually. 😃


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don't think calling someone an idiot is ever a good idea.


Agree with you 100% on this.

You may never use that word on others. But how do you prevent someone from using that word on you?

When you open your window, both butterfly and mosquito will fly in. The only solution is "If anybody uses that word even once, he is out".


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> We can agree or not on whether someone is bringing value to the site.  But that’s a different discussion than whether someone is trolling or not.
> 
> I think some of well regarded posters on this site sow misinformation and Ill-considered thoughts from time to time.   I don’t think those folks should be banned or binned nor do I think they are trolls. I just think they’re misinformed.


Yes agree to disagree on many things



Steve said:


> Here's the thing.  You guys like to pigeonhole people.  If you're deemed worthy, when you disagree with folks, you're simply explaining truths.  When you call someone an idiot, you're simply giving them some well deserved, direct feedback.  A wake up call, I think is how it's described.   When you say the same things over and over, it's because you believe them to be true and are patiently explaining your position to someone who is just choosing to ignore you.


By saying "YOU" and to a Moderator even with your follow up post it still "reads" like you have an issue with the staff. 
It would be nice to know if there was a real issue or just sand paper over time where it is just raw for you?

The Follow up reads like damage control to me. Not just clarification. 

And if someone explains the same thing over and over to myself, I ask why. 
Why are they saying this? I get it. Or I don't agree, and they know it. 
So Steve why do you say it over and over? 
Oh yes the follow up that says please be patient in 6 months of so for the same topic. 


Curious minds and all. 
** Note: I don't expect a reply in public nor private move for self contemplation ** 




Steve said:


> When you're deemed unworthy and you disagree with folks, you are trolling.  When you call someone an idiot, you are violating the TOS.  When you say the same things over and over, you are grinding an axe or pushing a narrative.



To me worth has no issue for who is trolling. 
A troll is someone who asks A gets response to A and then says no I meant B and then gets response to B and then proceeds to:
Attack the responders
Accuse the responders of ganging up (* Passive aggressive trolling *)
Put out more Red Herrings
Purposefully cross post a reply to the wrong poster
...

And if people pay attention I will reply with similar words and phrases and if they get violent or threatening then yes one could say it was trolling them, yet if it truly was trolling them then does it not mean they were trolling in the first place? 

PS: Some Trolls troll unconsciously and are not conscious of the unconscious trolling. Now if only they unconscious was conscious of the unconsciously trolling and let the conscious in on the message so they could see .... Oh Wait This is not existentialism. My Bad. 





Steve said:


> Same posts, same language, same actions, but handled very differently depending on whether you are pigeonholed as "valuable" or a troublemaker.



I would really like to see examples of this. 
Or better yet. 
Put them in a simple write up and send to a Senior Mod or Admin. 



Steve said:


> The real point I'm trying to make here is that it's a matter of perspective.



** use of One as this could be anyone and not just Steve's Post **

Perspective is reality for most people. 
And if one is going to call out others on perspective then one should also be willing to stand back and call themselves out. 
They should look at it from the other side as well. 
If not then one has to ask why are they in the debate in the first place. 



Steve said:


> I don't expect you to understand what I'm trying to say, and certainly don't expect you to change.



I agree 100%. 



Steve said:


> It's your site, and you'll manage it however you like.



See Above about calling out Staff, and later follow up post to say not specifically to CYA. 
My perspective is that after posting you realized that you may have crossed a line and need to walk it back to that line to be safe. 
Which is where most of the Trolls or Hot Posters or conflict people learn to post. 
Just like in any org for competition once there are rules, people will game the rules.  




Steve said:


> I just simply don't think anyone who has been around for a while is here to "troll" or be a nuisance.



I think some long time members get frustrated in their life and do Troll here from time to time and then back off to not loose their position here at this site. 

I do think there are nuisance posters here. My Opinion. When I was staff, and I held all current and other positions in the past, there would be no reason for a Staff if people were not being a nuisance. 



Steve said:


> They may not be knowledgeable.  They may not add a lot of "value".  But that's not the same thing.  And often, new folks come on the site and chased off before we can even get to know them one way or the other.



My generic opinion:
When new folks come in knowing more about all martial arts then anyone expert here in there area of expertise , these are your door to door religious people. They are not there to have a discussion. They are there to tell you are WRONG, and WHY YOU ARE WRONG. 
** Note: Not Steve in this case - obviously not new, and using generic plural you ** 
They do not want to have you tell them anything. They wand you to listen to them. 
Almost like a cult or blind faith or *Insert other comparison here*


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I've blocked a couple of posters, but my usual thing is to just outlast them, they leave eventually. 😃



Unfortunately, some learn to walk that line and stick around, come in and then go away and then come back.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, I do disagree a little bit on this one, in that as long as you have that title under your name, you are not posting as "just" a poster.  We can just disagree on this one, but I don't think you'll ever convince me that moderators and mentors don't set the tone around here.  I believe you do, whether you like it or not.  Think of it like the debate sparked by Charles Barkley's quote, "I am not a role model."



Just My Opinion

Moderators and Mentors should set the tone.
The tone being the ToS. 
The Charter. 
And anything else used to define the characteristics of the site. 

Yet, so DOES EVER SINGLE POSTER. 
Let me repeat that. 
So Does Ever Single Poster.

If all the posters conflict and argue then that tone is set. 
If all the posters review the charter "friendly discussion" and ToS and can play nice with each other, then the Staff can take a very long break.


----------



## Steve (Jun 7, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Yes agree to disagree on many things


Off to a good start.  You seem earnest, so I'll try to respond in kind.



Rich Parsons said:


> By saying "YOU" and to a Moderator even with your follow up post it still "reads" like you have an issue with the staff.
> It would be nice to know if there was a real issue or just sand paper over time where it is just raw for you?



Sorry, where did I ever give the impression that I don't?  Though, in truth, it's just a few who set the tone.  I actually like most of the mods and mentors, enjoy their posts, and appreciate the hard work they do.  A few though... phew.  Remember that time you called me a troll?  Those were good times.  LOL.



Rich Parsons said:


> The Follow up reads like damage control to me. Not just clarification.



Fair enough.  You're coming at this with a particular perspective.   I appreciate that.



Rich Parsons said:


> And if someone explains the same thing over and over to myself, I ask why.
> Why are they saying this? I get it. Or I don't agree, and they know it.
> So Steve why do you say it over and over?
> Oh yes the follow up that says please be patient in 6 months of so for the same topic.



I think the wit was lost on you.  This entire site is the same stuff being discussed over and over.  I know... it's not funny if it has to be explained.  I think @Monkey Turned Wolf understood the tongue in cheek comment and I would hope most others did, too.



Rich Parsons said:


> Curious minds and all.
> ** Note: I don't expect a reply in public nor private move for self contemplation **


I sincerely don't understand what this means.



Rich Parsons said:


> To me worth has no issue for who is trolling.


Agreed.



Rich Parsons said:


> A troll is someone who asks A gets response to A and then says no I meant B and then gets response to B and then proceeds to:
> Attack the responders
> Accuse the responders of ganging up (* Passive aggressive trolling *)
> Put out more Red Herrings
> Purposefully cross post a reply to the wrong poster



That is a strangely specific definition of troll, and not how it's generally defined.  That said, I appreciate your clarification.  I have a different definition of a troll.  The other day, a person came onto the site and posted something like "to chi or not to chi".  He had like 3 posts, all of them inflammatory, and he was a member for a full day.  The threads were locked and I presume he lost interest and off he goes.  That's a troll.

Here's another thing I think is interesting.  If you replace "troll" with "bully" in your definition above, it's pretty clear that you're blaming the victim, which is a tactic that bullies commonly employ.  Sort of a "oh, you think I'm a bully?  You're the real bully here" thing.

It's also notable that you use terms like "purposefully".  Again this gets to intent, which is a lot of the stuff I  mentioned earlier.  If you presume good intent, suddenly things seem like mistakes.  If you presume their "purposeful" they become more sinister.  Unless you're calling someone "boy" or "idiot".  That's hard to take in a positive way no matter how you cut it.


Rich Parsons said:


> ...
> 
> And if people pay attention I will reply with similar words and phrases and if they get violent or threatening then yes one could say it was trolling them, yet if it truly was trolling them then does it not mean they were trolling in the first place?



Okay, I thought about a few different ways to respond to this, but I'll just say that it's concerning to me that you 1) admit to trolling people (not sure if you mean here or in real life.  2)  That you seem to make people violent or threatening on purpose, which seems malicious and cruel to me, and 3) that you fall right back into the "I'm not the troll, they're the troll" defense. 



Rich Parsons said:


> PS: Some Trolls troll unconsciously and are not conscious of the unconscious trolling. Now if only they unconscious was conscious of the unconsciously trolling and let the conscious in on the message so they could see .... Oh Wait This is not existentialism. My Bad.


Oh boy....



Rich Parsons said:


> I would really like to see examples of this.
> Or better yet.
> Put them in a simple write up and send to a Senior Mod or Admin.



I have, and will continue to do so, if you like.



Rich Parsons said:


> ** use of One as this could be anyone and not just Steve's Post **


another odd statement that in the context of your previous sentences, I just don't know what you mean.



Rich Parsons said:


> Perspective is reality for most people.



Deep.  I like it.



Rich Parsons said:


> And if one is going to call out others on perspective then one should also be willing to stand back and call themselves out.


100%.  I am a flawed individual, always looking to do better.  How about you?  Are you the introspective sort?


Rich Parsons said:


> They should look at it from the other side as well.
> If not then one has to ask why are they in the debate in the first place.


Why are you here, Rich?


Rich Parsons said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> 
> 
> See Above about calling out Staff, and later follow up post to say not specifically to CYA.


Are you seriously suggesting that folks should call other folks out specifically?  Are you going to call me a sociopath again?  Is that where this is headed?  Oh wait.  That was someone else.  You called me a troll, if I recall correctly.



Rich Parsons said:


> My perspective is that after posting you realized that you may have crossed a line and need to walk it back to that line to be safe.



I guess my problem is that I don't always know where the line is, because I didn't feel anywhere near it in this thread.


Rich Parsons said:


> Which is where most of the Trolls or Hot Posters or conflict people learn to post.



Okay.


Rich Parsons said:


> Just like in any org for competition once there are rules, people will game the rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's pretty clear that you know exactly where the line is, yourself, my friend.



Rich Parsons said:


> My generic opinion:
> When new folks come in knowing more about all martial arts then anyone expert here in there area of expertise , these are your door to door religious people. They are not there to have a discussion. They are there to tell you are WRONG, and WHY YOU ARE WRONG.
> ** Note: Not Steve in this case - obviously not new, and using generic plural you **
> They do not want to have you tell them anything. They wand you to listen to them.
> Almost like a cult or blind faith or *Insert other comparison here*



Sometimes, sure.  Sometimes, they just aren't your type of people.



Rich Parsons said:


> Just My Opinion





Rich Parsons said:


> Moderators and Mentors should set the tone.
> The tone being the ToS.
> The Charter.
> And anything else used to define the characteristics of the site.
> ...


As the head goes, so goes the body.  This reads to me like deflection.

If an employee tries to bully his boss, how does the boss handle it?  Any number of ways, because the boss has the power to address the situation. The boss can direct the employee to stop.  The boss can coach the employee and ultimately, the boss can discipline the employee and even ultimately fire them for misconduct.

But what if the boss is bullying the employee?  The employee can't discipline the boss.  The employee can't coach the boss or direct the boss.  The employee certainly can't fire the boss.

And if the boss is a bully, they will cultivate a culture of bullying.   And in an office where there are 10 bosses, if two of them are bullies, itc can poison the entire office.

There's an old saying, 'People don't quit jobs, they quit bosses."  



Rich Parsons said:


> Let me repeat that.
> So Does Ever Single Poster





Rich Parsons said:


> If all the posters conflict and argue then that tone is set.
> If all the posters review the charter "friendly discussion" and ToS and can play nice with each other, then the Staff can take a very long break.



And if the staff aren't friendly, the posters won't be either.  Do you think of yourself as a friendly poster, Rich?  I'm guessing you do.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 8, 2022)

Steve said:


> Off to a good start.  You seem earnest, so I'll try to respond in kind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you Steve


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 8, 2022)

This thread is now unlocked. Please avoid any personal attacks on other members, or focusing on specific posters rather than the topic, as much as this thread/topic allows for that.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> *blocked a couple of posters, *but my usual thing is to just outlast them, they leave eventually. 😃


Maybe it's you? 
Just saying 🤣


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

I honestly don't feel the need to agree with everyone on here nor do I feel I need to Block or report people. If someone doesn't like me or my posts then feel free to Block me.
Some people like to Pop their head up now and again, make a silly funny comment then expect no Comeback. It's like the old saying, don't give it out if you can't take it. Also I don't feel I need to be quite as the "New boy" on here. We're on an Internet forum.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> If all the posters conflict and argue then that tone is set.
> If all the posters review the charter "friendly discussion" and ToS and can play nice with each other, then the Staff can take a very long break.


I think people should say their opinions as long as it's not insulting. However people shouldn't just think because they've been on here 10 years it gives them some kind of rights to be little others & expect a  free pass. 
It doesn't interest me if the poster is a woman or a man, how old they are or if they have 10 black belts. 
But you're a good egg rich


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## tkdroamer (Oct 16, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wanted to put these quotes together because they reflect an not uncommon situation we encounter during moderation.
> 
> During the course of a discussion (or a series of discussions) things start to get heated between members A and B. Inappropriate language is used, behavior starts to push the bounds of the terms of service.
> 
> ...


I fully realize I have no dog in this race. I sure we have all been on both the giving end and receiving end of 'forum fury' and know it is hard to give the floor sometimes. 

FWIW, I moderate a few sites totally non-related to the martial arts. They relate to my technical field of work and believe me when I say egos and personalities flare at times. One is even pay to play and is by far the hardest to moderate. When we give warnings or points, it always come with a *detailed explanation*. Not just a blurb from a post and notification that they received a point. More often than not, when the perspective is explained from the other viewpoint the poster comes around to understand why they are being dinged. 
I read over the Terms and Rules (could not specifically find a TOS) and it does not explain the points system at all. That is confusing to most people. 


I don't expect anything to come from this post. Just wanted to offer it in the hopes it will help somewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I fully realize I have no dog in this race. I sure we have all been on both the giving end and receiving end of 'forum fury' and know it is hard to give the floor sometimes.
> 
> FWIW, I moderate a few sites totally non-related to the martial arts. They relate to my technical field of work and believe me when I say egos and personalities flare at times. One is even pay to play and is by far the hardest to moderate. When we give warnings or points, it always come with a *detailed explanation*. Not just a blurb from a post and notification that they received a point. More often than not, when the perspective is explained from the other viewpoint the poster comes around to understand why they are being dinged.
> I read over the Terms and Rules (could not specifically find a TOS) and it does not explain the points system at all. That is confusing to most people.
> ...


Somewhere there is a post that explains the points system. I'm not sure if it's easy to find, nor even if it's entirely current. I'll put it on our "to consider" list.

We started some cleanup and reorganization of these types of posts some time ago, but life keeps stepping in to interrupt the process.


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## jks9199 (Oct 16, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Somewhere there is a post that explains the points system. I'm not sure if it's easy to find, nor even if it's entirely current. I'll put it on our "to consider" list.
> 
> We started some cleanup and reorganization of these types of posts some time ago, but life keeps stepping in to interrupt the process.


I admit, they could be easier to find -- but they're there.  Generally, when points are given to someone, we do explain why to that person. Otherwise, we'de just be slapping people and they'd have no clue why.  Remember that the Staff are volunteers with various obligations in life.  

See The Rules: MartialTalk.com Forum Rules and Procedures



Bob Hubbard said:


> *5.7 Infraction System*
> 
> The following explains the infraction system on the boards. The rules themselves have not changed, but this is a good way for you to track how many infractions/warnings you've received and for the Admins to track how many infractions/warnings have been issued.
> 
> ...


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I made up 3 general rules for social media.  I chose the number three because it's small and I can remember about three things at a time.
> 
> 1, laugh, it's all fun, even if it doesn't seem that way.
> 
> ...


Bump, because I put a lot of thought into these, and it took me over a decade to figure them out.

Bodhidharma only spent seven examining a cave wall.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 16, 2022)

I live my life by ‘treat others how you’d wish to be treated’ and ‘be nice, humorous and cheerful’. It’s only certain others that sometimes prevent me from following my guidelines 🙄


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## Gyakuto (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Bump, because I put a lot of thought into these, and it took me over a decade to figure them out.
> 
> Bodhidharma only spent seven examining a cave wall.


I think it was nine years, but I’m sure he wasn’t counting 😃


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think it was nine years, but I’m sure he wasn’t counting 😃


Epic facepalm.

This is what I get for listening to Iron Maiden all day.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think it was nine years, but I’m sure he wasn’t counting 😃


He didn't speak or do anything else of interest, what better thing to do than count the days?


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## Gyakuto (Oct 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Epic facepalm.
> 
> This is what I get for listening to Iron Maiden all day.


With such a _dire_ error of fact, surely you should run to the hills!😉 (see what I did there? Did you? Did you see it?)


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> With such a _dire_ error of fact, surely you should run to the hills!😉 (see what I did there? Did you? Did you see it?)


He said Iron Maiden, not Dire Straits...


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## Gyakuto (Oct 17, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> He said Iron Maiden, not Dire Straits...


Dire Straits and Geordie crooner, Chris Rhea were going to form a super-group once. The idea was abandoned when they realised they’d be called Dire Rhea. (Oldie but a goodie)


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> With such a *dire *error of fact, surely you should run to the hills!😉 (see what I did there? Did you? Did you see it?)


I read that as French.

Actual, Latin popped in first the more I think about it, and then French.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Dire Straits and Geordie crooner, Chris Rhea were going to form a super-group once. The idea was abandoned when they realised they’d be called Dire Rhea. (Oldie but a goodie)


🤣


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 17, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think it was nine years, but I’m sure he wasn’t counting 😃


Well he fell asleep so…


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Maybe it's you?
> Just saying 🤣


Actually no it wasn't me. One was quite a while ago when we had a political section, he stated emphatically that the NHS killed premature babies deliberately. He also slagged off British forces called them cowards, there was far more than that too. Another was telling people she was being beaten up by her martial arts instructor naming him and the gym. I knew the instructor and also knew she was actually a he trying to spread lies in as many martial arts sites as possible.  Happens quite often than someone will sign up with false details to have a go at others but they're usually directed to other forums.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


On FB and Twitter, I block with a heavy hand.  I don't have time for people to make my life miserable.  I do not owe anyone the right to hassle me.

On MT, I've got a couple people on ignore.  I'm less liable to put someone on my ignore list indiscriminately, but I've literally had a couple folks get a bee in their bonnet and decide to literally follow me around online and post something belittling or snotty about each and every thing I say.  I add those people to my ignore list.  Sometimes I take a literal break from MT for a couple months, because life is too short and I've too little of it left to put up with cheap childish nonsense.  Those folks can hassle me without me noticing it.  They're happy, I'm happy.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 18, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Are there certain posters on this board that you find objectionable enough, or simply irritating, that you have decided to blocked their posts? Is it just me? _Is_ it me? If so, what is your motivation? (Since discretion is the better part of valour, please don’t mention the names of anyone you may have blocked).
> 
> I think years of objectionable Twitter-posts for political leaders, the ubiquity of David Brent/Michael Scott-types and the erroneous idea that everyone’s opinion on anything is valid have worn me down and I just want to hear from these people. I have left Facebook for the same reason.


I also wanted to talk about the word 'censor' for a minute.  It has a very negative connotation, and it implies that people have some sort of right to be heard, regardless of what they have to say and regardless of what method they use to say whatever it is they feel the need to say.

The cry of 'censorship' is often tied to the notion of 'free speech,' and used to beat people over the head when they choose not to subject themselves to whatever it is another person is determined to say.  Freedom of speech, at least in the US, means that the government is forbidden from infringing on the right of citizens to say whatever they wish.  It doesn't apply to private forums, even those that are open to the public.  A shopping mall, for example, can ban people from waving banners or handing out literature or standing on a soapbox and shouting, even though it is a public venue.  Many of those banned feel that they have or should have the legal right to do so, but this has not proven to be the case in courts.

I see it a lot on Twitter.  Someone gets blocked and complains that they are being illegally censored, when in reality, some folks just don't want to see what they have to say.  Should they be forced to see all points of view, regardless of how objectionable it might be? I'd argue no.  Frankly, if I were not permitted to block people whom I find objectionable, I'd simply leave.  Do I lack an open mind?  Do I refuse to see my own shortcomings?  Well, perhaps so.  And that is entirely my right, as it is yours.

So when I put someone on ignore, I do not see it as censorship.  I see it as exercising my right to my own peace of mind.  Even if the person being ignored thinks I am running from whatever truth it is they think I really really need to have my nose rubbed in.  But again, I have a second right which I also exercise from time to time.  When it gets to be overwhelming, I take a break.  Fortunately, I do not have a need to stay where I am not wanted.


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## Steve (Oct 18, 2022)

I agree with @Bill Mattocks that there is little censorship happening in this forum. People filtering what they view by using the ignore feature is nothing like the actual suppression of opinions and perspectives.  

When the site bans or suspends a poster, or removes/edits posts, that’s closer to actual censorship. But as this is a private forum, so what?  We may agree or disagree with how it’s run, but it’s their site to run however they wish.  Same for FB and Twitter.


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## Steve (Oct 18, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Actually no it wasn't me. One was quite a while ago when we had a political section, he stated emphatically that the NHS killed premature babies deliberately. He also slagged off British forces called them cowards, there was far more than that too. Another was telling people she was being beaten up by her martial arts instructor naming him and the gym. I knew the instructor and also knew she was actually a he trying to spread lies in as many martial arts sites as possible.  Happens quite often than someone will sign up with false details to have a go at others but they're usually directed to other forums.


Was that @billc?  Must have been!


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> Was that @billc?  Must have been!


Yes a legend in his own lunchtime 😡

perhaps it's time the political section came back 😂😂😂😂


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