# William Cheung's Biu Jee



## WCman1976 (Feb 3, 2012)

I came across a video on Youtube of William Cheung doing biu jee, and I was surprised to see him stepping and doing kicks. Some sections looked like they came from the dummy form. (I'm going by the knowledge I have of the way forms are done in MY lineage. I study under Sifu Russell Cichon, who has been accepted as a student by Yip Ching.) This has me wondering how he performs sil lum tao and chum kiu. Does anyone know of any footage out there that shows him doing those forms?


----------



## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

No comment.


----------



## Eric_H (Feb 3, 2012)

You could have googled it and found it in about 10 seconds.


----------



## WingChunIan (Feb 3, 2012)

his book on developing chi power shows his SNT move by move and its the same as taught by both Ip brothers.


----------



## WingChunIan (Feb 3, 2012)

> No comment


.
oh come on, I know you're dying to say something.:whip1:


----------



## mook jong man (Feb 3, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> .
> oh come on, I know you're dying to say something.:whip1:



No mate , been down that road before and nothing good ever comes of it.
Suffice to say that William Cheung's interpretation of the principles of Wing Chun are quite different to what I am familiar with .


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2012)

WCman1976 said:


> I came across a video on Youtube of William Cheung doing biu jee, and I was surprised to see him stepping and doing kicks. Some sections looked like they came from the dummy form. (I'm going by the knowledge I have of the way forms are done in MY lineage. I study under Sifu Russell Cichon, who has been accepted as a student by Yip Ching.) This has me wondering how he performs sil lum tao and chum kiu. Does anyone know of any footage out there that shows him doing those forms?



Ask Russell, he is very good and very approachable. Can't get to Russell then, as to videos, I was once told by a Wing Chun sifu I trained with when I was not able to get to class; look to old videos of Ip Man, they are close to what he teaches. 

That was a few years ago... but these days there are vids of Ip Chun and Ip Ching out there and Ip Chun is not that far off and Ip Ching.... well you know.

I even posted some here on MT in the Wing Chun section a few months back


----------



## WCman1976 (Feb 3, 2012)

Thank you all for the replies.

ERIC H,

I would have found them on Google...if I could have accessed it. I was at work when I started this thread, and for some reason a search engine like Google is blocked, but the Martial Talk boards are not. (I work the overnight shift at my job, which is very boring, so I'm glad the boards can be accessed so I can keep myself entertained!) Thanks for the links.



mook jong man said:


> No mate , been down that road before and nothing good ever comes of it.
> Suffice to say that William Cheung's interpretation of the principles of Wing Chun are quite different to what I am familiar with .



I wasn't saying I agree or disagree with how William Cheung interprets the principles. I was just curious about how he did the other forms. After studying how other lineages perform wing chun, I am pretty confident that I'm already matched up with the wing chun "family" that is best suited for me. However, I still enjoy researching how other people interpret the style...if nothing else, for compare and contrast purposes.


----------



## geezer (Feb 3, 2012)

Personally I have no problem with William Cheung doing whatever he wants with the forms, and I'll leave the judgement as to whether his stuff is good or not to others. I just object to his claim that his "TWC" method is the only "real" stuff. If you are going to change stuff, like most masters do, be upfront about it.

Interestingly, the few TWC students I've run into were really nice guys and dedicated to their art. So now I'm going to shut up.


----------



## WCman1976 (Feb 3, 2012)

geezer said:


> Personally I have no problem with William Cheung doing whatever he wants with the forms, and I'll leave the judgement as to whether his stuff is good or not to others. I just object to his claim that his "TWC" method is the only "real" stuff. If you are going to change stuff, like most masters do, be upfront about it.
> 
> Interestingly, the few TWC students I've run into were really nice guys and dedicated to their art. So now I'm going to shut up.



I agree with you there: with so many versions of wing chun out there, I think it is a bit arrogant to say, "Mine is real and everyone else is practicing a diluted, useless version."


----------



## KamonGuy2 (Feb 3, 2012)

Its not a question of what a person does with his wing chun. If a person wants to throw in a flying kick, or suplex into his wing chun, thats fine. My (and many others) problem with the Cheung, is that he claims his wing chun to be the best out there and the only 'pure' form. 

Normally, even that wouldnt give me sleepless nights, but Ive experienced some of his instructors (or minions) first hand who's first question to you if you tell them you do wing chun, is 'is it pure or modified'?

Im glad to say that I have run into a couple of exceptions to the rule (Cheung lineage guys who arent preoccupied with where the chun comes from), but they are few and far between

Lets just say that the martial arts world in general arent always as friendly to chun practitioners as the members on here , and a lot of this has to do with the past, and certain 'grandmasters'


----------



## WingChun (Jul 31, 2013)

It is said by some that william cheung only knows sil nim tao, and made up chum kiu and biu jee and his dummy form. That is why only sil nim tao looks similar.


----------



## StormShadow (Aug 1, 2013)

WingChun said:


> It is said by some that william cheung only knows sil nim tao, and made up chum kiu and biu jee and his dummy form. That is why only sil nim tao looks similar.



seriously doubt that, but if so.. great work on his part.


----------



## Eric_H (Aug 1, 2013)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Its not a question of what a person does with his wing chun. If a person wants to throw in a flying kick, or suplex into his wing chun, thats fine. My (and many others) problem with the Cheung, is that he claims his wing chun to be the best out there and the only 'pure' form.



He Probably is teaching a "pure" form of Leung Bik Wing Chun. Unfortunately for him, it isn't any better or worse than Chan Wa Shun's version.


----------



## geezer (Aug 1, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> He Probably is teaching a "pure" form of Leung Bik Wing Chun. Unfortunately for him, it isn't any better or worse than Chan Wa Shun's version.



I seriously doubt that William Cheung is teaching "Leung Bic" WC. His kung fu bros. claim that he learned the same material as others who studied under Ip Man at that time. But in order to substantiate his claims to having some unique knowledge ...the so-called "TWC", he had to add in-or make up some unique movements!


----------



## StormShadow (Aug 1, 2013)

geezer said:


> I seriously doubt that William Cheung is teaching "Leung Bic" WC. His kung fu bros. claim that he learned the same material as others who studied under Ip Man at that time. But in order to substantiate his claims to having some unique knowledge ...the so-called "TWC", he had to add in-or make up some unique movements!



Per my research, Being as though, other forms of wing chun are similar, doubt he actually made it up.  Most people issue is the claim b/c they do not want to be made feel invalidated or studying something lesser.  Which in turn, they reverse the same sentiments back to the source and all associated. First it was Leung Bik didn't exist.  Then it was Ip man made up the story about Leung Bik then a host of other stories.  What ever the truth is, he and Wong Shun Leung were credited as very good fighters in their hay day.  Take it for what it's worth.


----------



## WingChunIan (Aug 2, 2013)

I suspect that the truth is William Cheung learnt exactly the same as all of Ip Man's other students. He also used it back in his youth to fight but over time he has modified what he does/ teaches in the same way that everyone does. He will also have always had his own interpretations of things and from previous / subsequent martial arts exposure has incorporated material even if it was may years ago. Unfortunately he chose a marketing strategy that alienated him from much of the rest of the wing chun community, he's not the only one ever to have done it and he almost certainly wont be the last


----------



## WingChunIan (Aug 2, 2013)

Interesting youtube link, probably old news to many but I hadn't seen the VTAA letter before.





It would appear that I was over generous in my previous appraisal of the situation.


----------



## StormShadow (Aug 2, 2013)

Yep, there's letters, denials of Leung Bik's existence, claims of all sorts from both sides.  Only later to find out Leung Bik actually existed as WC mentioned. Then it was the stories that he never taught bruce latter undermined by Bruce's own students that it was WSL as senior teacher and WC whom also instructed Bruce at Yip Man's request. The whole situation is pointless and no one will ever know the truth.  Yip Man's version of wing chun is not the only one and it's said there are secret kwoons still practicing other versions not in really known in the western world. This is why people say just practice what you love and do your best with it. All else is futile.


----------



## WingChun (Aug 2, 2013)

StormShadow said:


> seriously doubt that, but if so.. great work on his part.



Just passing down what was told to me.  What other reason could it be in your opinion?


----------



## StormShadow (Aug 2, 2013)

WingChun said:


> Just passing down what was told to me.  What other reason could it be in your opinion?



My opinion... it doesn't matter... I just know it's effective as other forms of wing chun are.  From sifu to sifu, all have placed there little touch on the art.  I doubt we are learning wing chun as it was first derived.  There has been many changes which is also why it's all pointless.


----------



## hunt1 (Aug 4, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> He Probably is teaching a "pure" form of Leung Bik Wing Chun. Unfortunately for him, it isn't any better or worse than Chan Wa Shun's version.



 No he is not teaching a pure form of Leung Bik Wing Chun. Lo Kwai kept a records of almost everything Leung Jan taught him.  I have been taught by the family of Lo Kwai and have seen all of Lo Kwai's notes and records. Lo Kwai was Leung Jan's second for almost all of his challenge matches and was the Knife Man of the Leung Jan's kung fu family. What Leung Jan taught Leung Bik was not the forms William Cheung teaches. There are common elements but the forms are different.

My own opinion based on what I know is that Williams Cheungs wing chun was an adaptation to emphasize methods to deal with larger opponents at longer range.


----------



## Eric_H (Aug 5, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> No he is not teaching a pure form of Leung Bik Wing Chun. Lo Kwai kept a records of almost everything Leung Jan taught him.  I have been taught by the family of Lo Kwai and have seen all of Lo Kwai's notes and records. Lo Kwai was Leung Jan's second for almost all of his challenge matches and was the Knife Man of the Leung Jan's kung fu family. What Leung Jan taught Leung Bik was not the forms William Cheung teaches. There are common elements but the forms are different.
> 
> My own opinion based on what I know is that Williams Cheungs wing chun was an adaptation to emphasize methods to deal with larger opponents at longer range.



I'm not familiar with that name - is that one of the gu lao guys?


----------



## hunt1 (Aug 5, 2013)

Lo Kwai- Butcher Kwai is how he is most commonly known and referred to in the Foshan martial arts community. He was one of Leung Jan's first students. Other styles other than wing chun have stories about Kung Fu of the era that refer to him and his skill's.


----------



## StormShadow (Aug 5, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> I'm not familiar with that name - is that one of the gu lao guys?



I was able to find this on him:

"Not much is known about Lo Kwai. He operated a stand,  in Foshan that sold Pork and other meats. His strength was such, that he  could cut off a full grown pigs Head, with a single stroke of his  cleaver. His pork selling stand, was in the same market corner, that  Leung Jans Medical clinic was located, which is currently called Fei  Jee Street or Cho Stick street. Lo Kwai was able to learn from and become a disciple to Famous Wing Chun  Fighter, Leung Jan.  

 When the Nationalists left China, and went to Taiwan,  Lo Kwais Family and students followed. They settled in Taiwan, and  have passed down the Wing Chun system, within their family, for  generations. The family doesn't teach the Wing chun system, publicly.  They teach Bot Gwa and Hsing i to the public, while reserving the Wing  Chun system for disciples and family members. "


----------



## Eric_H (Aug 5, 2013)

hunt1 said:


> Lo Kwai- Butcher Kwai is how he is most commonly known and referred to in the Foshan martial arts community. He was one of Leung Jan's first students. Other styles other than wing chun have stories about Kung Fu of the era that refer to him and his skill's.



I'd be really interested to see what that art looks like, but I'm sure if the family has held on to it this long, they're not interested in letting it out to the public.

Guess we'll never know.


----------



## hunt1 (Aug 6, 2013)

Eric_H said:


> I'd be really interested to see what that art looks like, but I'm sure if the family has held on to it this long, they're not interested in letting it out to the public.
> 
> Guess we'll never know.




Well that's not true. No one teaches as a profession,that's true but that doesn't mean the Wing Chun isn't taught. My students are taught. I have had folks come from around the world to learn. They have been taught. One person made over 35 hours of recordings while he was here.  A student of Danny Chao teaches a group in Canada, Stephan Chao teachers in Bahrain. A few others teach as well. Granted I am the only non Chinese teaching in the states and I do not promote myself. That is in keeping with tradition and the family desire to maintain the information and not let it fall into the splintering seen in other wing chun families. 
 Kwai family wing chun answers a lot of questions. Once you see the dummy and weapon forms especially.

However we don't argue or make any claims about original or best . The wing chun just is and some will put the time in and some just take out of it what they want and that's ok. That said I teach the way Chao Ng Kwai taught me. It was not the way he taught the rest of the family. This was due to my situation and also the fact that I don't speak any Chinese.


----------



## geezer (Aug 6, 2013)

Here's more:

http://sjmaainternational.blogspot.com/2012/07/history-of-wing-chun-according-to-lo.html

So ...Hunter, you are the only Westerner taught this system of Wing Chun?


----------



## Domino (Aug 7, 2013)

I like what you said regarding it being down to the individuals interpretation.



WingChunIan said:


> .
> oh come on, I know you're dying to say something.:whip1:



We've seen these type comments before. When you do have access to google, see what you can find.


----------



## hunt1 (Aug 7, 2013)

geezer said:


> Here's more:
> 
> http://sjmaainternational.blogspot.com/2012/07/history-of-wing-chun-according-to-lo.html
> 
> So ...Hunter, you are the only Westerner taught this system of Wing Chun?



 Interesting to find an article about Lo Kwai wing chun on that site. At the time I was taught I was the only non Asian. There are others now.


----------

