# Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper



## Blade96 (Jan 22, 2010)

do you have an opinion on our prime minister Stephen Harper? do you like or dislike him? Why or why not?

Persoally, I can't stand him. One of the biggest reasons is that he's too right wing for my tastes, but there's more than that. I can't write why I dont like him, because it would be a book instead of a little post on a message board lol.

Ok, one reason. He only likes elections to save his own skin or if he thinks he has a chance for a majority government. He doesn't care about democracy. He ratified the NAFO agreement even though most of Parliament voted against it.

He closed Parliament around christmas and is keeping it closed til March after the Olympics. Most think its to avoid discussion on the treatment of afghan detainees who were handed over and tortured. But there's no reason to close the House. No excuse for closing the House for months 2 years in a row always around Christmastime, preventing government from meeting to discuss things!


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## Scott T (Jan 22, 2010)

You mean the spineless sh--bag control freak who has a knack for taking credit for succeses while blaming failures on anybody but himself and his government, or just tries dodging them all togrther?

Thank God he can kiss his dream of a majority government good-bye.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 22, 2010)

Scott T said:


> You mean the spineless sh--bag control freak who has a knack for taking credit for succeses while blaming failures on anybody but himself and his government, or just tries dodging them all togrther?


 
?? I thought this thread was about SH? Not every Liberal PM since, and incluidng PET.


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## Scott T (Jan 22, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> ?? I thought this thread was about SH? Not every Liberal PM since, and incluidng PET.


 It pretty much describes every PM over the last 40+ years. Except with Harper, Like Mulroney, you can also add Beltway Baglicker.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 22, 2010)

To my shame, I've never heard of him .  

One thing I will say is that in the three weeks I spent in Canada I came to a cheerful appreciation of the ineptitude of your politicians when it came to lying on camera.  It is something to treasure that they are so bad at it - our lot are so slick that, unless you're on your toes, you never feel the knife going in :tup:.


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## Blade96 (Jan 22, 2010)

Scott T said:


> You mean the spineless sh--bag control freak who has a knack for taking credit for succeses while blaming failures on anybody but himself and his government, or just tries dodging them all togrther?
> 
> Thank God he can kiss his dream of a majority government good-bye.


 
yes - that one. 

i shudder to think what would happen if he did get his majority. Yikes! pass the stola! *runs and hides*


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## blindsage (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm American....so of course I don't know anything about him.  :rofl:


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 22, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> i shudder to think what would happen if he did get his majority.


 
Specifically?


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## Ramirez (Jan 23, 2010)

Can't stand him either,  he is about as unaccomplised a PM we have had ,  a guy who champions neocon ideology but whose only private sector job has been as the coffee boy in the mailroom of an oil company.

 the guy has cut and run at every sign of adversity in his life, when he couldn't handle the comp sci program at U of T he ran, when Manning was going down in flames he ran,  it is well known that during meetings with the old Reform party he would leave meetings when another view other than his own came out on top.


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## Blade96 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> Can't stand him either, he is about as unaccomplised a PM we have had , a guy who champions neocon ideology but whose only private sector job has been as the coffee boy in the mailroom of an oil company.
> 
> the guy has cut and run at every sign of adversity in his life, when he couldn't handle the comp sci program at U of T he ran, when Manning was going down in flames he ran, it is well known that during meetings with the old Reform party he would leave meetings when another view other than his own came out on top.


 
i cant believe my parents actually were two of the voters who helped vote him in in 2006, I knew him for what he was a long time ago but couldnt convince them. they were fooled by his campaining promises to 'give more to newfoundland and give more control to the provinces and weakening the central control of the federal government' All lies. when he got in power, he immediately broke his promise to newfoundland to remove the nonrenewable resources from the equalization formula. I knew he would. My parents were taken in by him. They quickly realized after. But  by then it was too late.


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## Ramirez (Jan 23, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> i cant believe my parents actually were two of the voters who helped vote him in in 2006, I knew him for what he was a long time ago but couldnt convince them. they were fooled by his campaining promises to 'give more to newfoundland and give more control to the provinces and weakening the central control of the federal government' All lies. when he got in power, he immediately broke his promise to newfoundland to remove the nonrenewable resources from the equalization formula. I knew he would. My parents were taken in by him. They quickly realized after. But by then it was too late.


 
Did he win a seat in NFLD?  Newfies have far too much common sense to let him have a seat.

 BTW:  where in NFLD do you live?  My wife is from Harbour Main.


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## Blade96 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> Did he win a seat in NFLD? Newfies have far too much common sense to let him have a seat.


 
In 2006 he did. in the 2008 election the conservatives never got one seat. not one here =] due to our government using their ABC campaign 'anything but conservative' =] we knew the conservative are crap at that time. Though we never would have been able to keep him at a minority gov without quebec's support. Its funny about them....the federal government gives them alot of money but quebecers dont like them either.



			
				Ramirez said:
			
		

> BTW: where in NFLD do you live? My wife is from Harbour Main.


 
the avalon near st john's, NL's east coast

btw this also made me mad about harper: what you need to vote. Before 2007 your voter's registration card was enough to allow you to vote. In 2007 the harper gov put in this crazy thingy where you needed this: 
Elections Canada has now put into place measures contained in the Elections Fraud Act, which received Royal Assent on June 22, 2007. The most obvious change is the requirement for federal voters to prove their identity and residential address when they vote. 

For Canadian federal elections or by-elections called after July 26, 2007, voters will be required to 

show one piece of government identification which shows photo, name and residential address (e.g. a driver's licence), or
show two pieces of identification from an authorized list, with both containing the voter's name, and one the voter's residential address, or
be vouched for by a voter whose name appears on the voters list in the same polling division who has acceptable pieces of ID. Both will have to make a sworn statement.
In 2008 I went to vote. I had my social insurance number, university ID card, MCP card, voter's registration card, an old expired liquor licence, etc. basically everything that would have proved my identity anywhere....no. I mean EVERYWHERE else. Except if it was the Harper government! These werent good enough! Luckily i went with my dad, and he had to vouch for me. Basically if I voted alone, I wouldnt have been able to exercise my basic democratic right to go vote! 

Just another example of why I hate him.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 23, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> btw this also made me mad about harper: what you need to vote. Before 2007 your voter's registration card was enough to allow you to vote. In 2007 the harper gov put in this crazy thingy where you needed this:
> Elections Canada has now put into place measures contained in the Elections Fraud Act, which received Royal Assent on June 22, 2007. The most obvious change is the requirement for federal voters to prove their identity and residential address when they vote.
> 
> 
> ...


 
The elections fraud act was recommended unanimously by a Commons committee , made up of members from all parties. The bill was presented in turn to the Commons and Senate where it was passed by all the parties, with the exception of the NDP.

Have you ever worked an election? Or spent hours at a polling station during an election? You have no idea how much fraud there really is. I&#8217;ve seen people coming back to vote more than once on multiple occasions.

You&#8217;re damn right you should have to provide ID in order to vote, what type of elector system lets people vote basically on the honour system?

I fail to see how this is SH&#8217;s fault?


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## Blade96 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> The elections fraud act was recommended unanimously by a Commons committee , made up of members from all parties. The bill was presented in turn to the Commons and Senate where it was passed by all the parties, with the exception of the NDP.


 
didnt know, didnt care. The conservatives didnt say no. None of em did, according to what u wrote, except the ndp. 




			
				ken morgan said:
			
		

> Have you ever worked an election? Or spent hours at a polling station during an election? You have no idea how much fraud there really is. I&#8217;ve seen people coming back to vote more than once on multiple occasions.


 
not a provincial or federal one. But I ran in a student one. An election for the university students' Union. student politics. Lost the first time i tried; got elected the second time. and there were methods used to make sure no student was able to vote twice. Same in the federal elections. When you voted, they crossed you off because you voted already. and they'd check you to make sure you didnt vote twice.

and what we never did was have students practically have to jump through hoops in order to exercise their democratic right to vote.




			
				ken morgan said:
			
		

> You&#8217;re damn right you should have to provide ID in order to vote, what type of elector system lets people vote basically on the honour system?





			
				ken morgan said:
			
		

> I fail to see how this is SH&#8217;s fault?


 
and what was so wrong with our voter registration cards? For a long time they worked to allow people to vote. I couldnt use my voters card this time cause it didnt have a pic on it. My old liquor licence (ID) had a name and a pic and so did my university id card but no address. neither did m y social insurance number or mcp card or anything although both identify that i am who i say I am really well. What do I have to do to exercise my right to vote, go out and earn a driver's licence so it would contain all those things so i can vote though I dont have the money for maintanance of a car because I'm poor? and why should i? I had ID's up to here *points to head* that ID me like I said EVERYWHERE. and i still wouldnt have been allowed to vote if not for my father. Its insane. There's reasonable precautions to protect against fraud, and then there's stuff like this which keeps people like me from voting unless I have someone with me even despite all my ID's. It interferes with people's democratic rights like voting.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 23, 2010)

Well the NDP helped create the legislation and if I recall correctly voted for some amendments to it later.

Ive sat at voting stations and seen people giving stacks of voter cards out to people in their group. Ive seen an East Indian and could barely speak English come in and vote under the name Robert Smith, Ive seen a blond male come in and vote under Andeep Jurnap, and each of them having to look at the cards in order to spell the names. Ive even seen people try to vote and being told they already have, when in fact they hadnt. 

Like it or not voter fraud exists, every other country in the world requires you to prove who you are before you vote. You need to provide ID to the bank, to credit card companies, to the health insurance people, to the ministry of transportation, to the hospital, why is it so bad to have to provide ID before you vote every few years in an election? It's damn well important, important enough to ensure that there is no fraud!

Do you have any of these? If you did and they still gave you a hard time, then you needed to talk with the returning officer.

* Identity Cards*


Driver's Licence 
Health Card 
Canadian Passport 
Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (Citizenship Card) 
Birth Certificate 
Certificate of Indian Status (Status Card) 
Social Insurance Number Card 
Old Age Security Card 
Student ID Card 
Provincial/Territorial Identification Card 
Liquor Identification Card 
Hospital/Medical Clinic Card 
Credit/Debit Card 
Employee Card 
Public Transportation Card 
Library Card 
Canadian Forces Identity Card 
Veterans Affairs Canada Health Card 
Canadian Blood Services/Héma-Québec Card 
CNIB ID Card 
Firearm Possession and Acquisition Licence or Possession Only Licence 
Fishing, Trapping or Hunting Licence 
Outdoors or Wildlife Card/Licence 
Hospital bracelet worn by residents of long-term care facilities 
*Original documents
(with name and address)*


Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water) 
Bank/Credit Card Statement 
Vehicle Ownership/Insurance 
Correspondence issued by a school, college or university 
Statement of Government Benefits (employment insurance, old age security, social assistance, disability support or child tax benefit) 
Attestation of Residence issued by the responsible authority of a First Nations band or reserve 
Government Cheque or Cheque Stub 
Pension Plan Statement of Benefits, Contributions or Participation 
Residential Lease/Mortgage Statement 
Income/Property Tax Assessment Notice 
Insurance Policy 
Letter from a public curator, public guardian or public trustee 
One of the following, issued by the responsible authority of a shelter, soup kitchen, student/senior residence, or long-term care facility: Attestation of Residence, Letter of Stay, Admission Form or Statement of Benefits 

Obviously you dont like the CPC and probably the LPC too, *but *everything that goes wrong in the country is not SH fault.


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## Blade96 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Like it or not voter fraud exists, every other country in the world requires you to prove who you are before you vote. You need to provide ID to the bank, to credit card companies, to the health insurance people, to the ministry of transportation, to the hospital, why is it so bad to have to provide ID before you vote every few years in an election? It's damn well important, important enough to ensure that there is no fraud!




yes, fraud exists, but with the bank, and the credit card companies (may they burn in hell, sometimes I think) tohealth insurance, ministry, hospital, my ID's are accepted. Thats the difference. If they were good enough for these very important shmucks, why not to vote in a federal election? and that got my goat, because it violated my rights.




			
				ken morgan said:
			
		

> Do you have any of these? If you did and they still gave you a hard time, then you needed to talk with the returning officer.





			
				ken morgan said:
			
		

> *Identity Cards*
> 
> 
> Driver's Licence
> ...


 
Naw....not everything is SH fault - just 99.999999999%.

lol - just kidding. But him and his party, yeah, I really dislike em.

I had these i put in bold. These would be accepted anywhere. But not for a federal polling station. I dont get it.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 23, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> [/size][/font]
> 
> yes, fraud exists, but with the bank, and the credit card companies (may they burn in hell, sometimes I think) tohealth insurance, ministry, hospital, my ID's are accepted. Thats the difference. If they were good enough for these very important shmucks, why not to vote in a federal election? and that got my goat, because it violated my rights.
> 
> ...




Yeah...but this list is from the Elections Canada list....
Hence why you needed to talk to the RO.


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## Blade96 (Jan 23, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Yeah...but this list is from the Elections Canada list....
> Hence why you needed to talk to the RO.


 
Right on. 

Its bizarre.


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## Tames D (Jan 23, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> *Identity Cards*
> 
> 
> Liquor Identification Card




What is this all about? Doe's it have to do with a liquor license to sell ?


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 23, 2010)

Tames D said:


> [/list]What is this all about? Doe's it have to do with a liquor license to sell ?


 
Hell if I know! 

Years ago they use to have an age of majority card here in Ontario, so if you didn't have a drivers licence you could still have offical government Id with which to buy alcohol. 

Each province controls that stuff, its not from Ontario...that I know of...

No, a licence to sell alcohol would be to an organization, corporation, club, or business entity of some sort. Again another province may be differnet.


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## Blade96 (Jan 24, 2010)

I think it probably refers to an ID. I have a liquor licence because when i was in my mid 20's and I tried to go to bars with my friends, I'd get ID'd because I looked young.

Not sure but I think.


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## JDenver (Jan 24, 2010)

Getting back to the Stephen Harper question.

I have great misgivings about this government.  They take every opportunity to fire and silence anyone who disagrees with them.  They foster mistrust and venom with civil servants.  They are full of paranoia for anything not related to their party.  They spend an inordinate amount of time plotting to destroy their political opponents, or anyone else, like those in civil service, who disagree with them.  They are antagonistic to those with higher education ('elitists').  They pit groups against each other for their own gain.  They hope to declaw the federal system to the point of Canada being a country in name only, a collection of disparate provinces (defederalisation, accomplished through lowering taxes to point of building defecits and passing everything to the provinces, both lousy ideas).  They refuse to lead, only to deflect, avoid and argue.  They lack any vision for the country, except to weaken it.

I could go on and on.  There are examples in every sector, from mining to culture to agriculture.  I'm not interested in engaging 'but the other parties did this and that'.  This is worse.  This is as bad as I've known in 25 years.

I have no idea why anyone, even fiscal conservatives, would vote for them.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Hell if I know!
> 
> Years ago they use to have an age of majority card here in Ontario, so if you didn't have a drivers licence you could still have offical government Id with which to buy alcohol.


 
Yeah, I had an Age of Majority card in the seventies. It was photo ID that proved one was old enough to drink. I have a vague recollection that in those days, the driver's license didn't come with a photo, but I could be wrong. 



> No, a licence to sell alcohol would be to an organization, corporation, club, or business entity of some sort. Again another province may be differnet.



Not exactly. I believe the Liquor Control Board of Ontario started issuing licensee cards in the eighties or nineties. Previously, if you owned a restaurant or bar, you could only order liquor through LCBO warehousing; you couldn't go to a LCBO retail outlet. The reason was that licensees pay a surcharge over and above the retail price of booze. 

Giving licensees cards made life easier for restaurant operators. If they suddenly ran short, they could legally go to the liquor store to top up their stock. Same if they were purchasing a particular product for a special event. 

The liquor license itself would bear the name of applicant(s), not just the establishment. So would the ID card. So, essentially, the ID card serves as gov't issue photo ID and would be satisfactory proof for elections purposes.


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

JDenver said:


> They take every opportunity to fire and silence anyone who disagrees with them. They foster mistrust and venom with civil servants. They are full of paranoia for anything not related to their party.


 
I read once that Harper said he liked to see fear in the eyes of the people that worked for him. That is something you would hear from someone on the student leadership council in high school, not and adult who spent anytime working with other adults.

It sometimes sounds like he likes to take out his life's frustrations on anyone who opposes him, so we are all paying for him not getting a blow job in high school.

Let's not forget Jackboot Jimmie Flaherty, the ambulance chaser posing as a finance minister.

Or John Baird who seems to channel his anger at having to stay in the closet about his man crush on Harper at his political foes.

Or how about that ***** Mackay who put politics in front of his relationship with Stronach then played up his broken heart in front of the nation.

Too bad we can't turn the clock back to the old PC party and stand up guys like Joe Clark.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 24, 2010)




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## Scott T (Jan 24, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I read once that Harper said he liked to see fear in the eyes of the people that worked for him. That is something you would hear from someone on the student leadership council in high school, not and adult who spent anytime working with other adults.


 Although it does sound like him, I'd like to see something to verify this. Can you remember the source? Otherwise it's unsubstantiated rumour.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 24, 2010)

Guys you accuse the CPC and it 100 000+ members of being right wing nuts, sorry the vast majority of us are intelligent, educated, middle class, centrists, who care very deeply about this country and our people. (You would not believe the amount of atheists involved). We are by no means perfect, nor have we every claimed to be.

I refuse to swallow anyones Cool Aid, even my own parties. I think for myself, I argue points I believe in, even if it goes against what the Leader believes. I had dinner with a cabinet minister this past Monday and lunch with another, this past Tuesday. I am having a coffee with an NDP candidate tomorrow morning. The two ministers are intelligent, accomplished and personable people as is the NDP candidate I am seeing tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge I have not seen horns, tails or fire and brimstone on any of the three. 

I humbly suggest that many of you have swallowed someones Cool Aid.
:asian:


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

Scott T said:


> Although it does sound like him, I'd like to see something to verify this. Can you remember the source? Otherwise it's unsubstantiated rumour.


 

I can only find this link referencing the original globe and mail story,  but you will have to be a subscriber to read it.

http://montrealsimon.blogspot.com/2009/08/stephen-harper-and-mask-of-evil.html


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Guys you accuse the CPC and it 100 000+ members of being right wing nuts, sorry the vast majority of us are intelligent, educated, middle class, centrists, who care very deeply about this country and our people. (You would not believe the amount of atheists involved). We are by no means perfect, nor have we every claimed to be.
> 
> I refuse to swallow anyones Cool Aid, even my own parties. I think for myself, I argue points I believe in, even if it goes against what the Leader believes. I had dinner with a cabinet minister this past Monday and lunch with another, this past Tuesday. I am having a coffee with an NDP candidate tomorrow morning. The two ministers are intelligent, accomplished and personable people as is the NDP candidate I am seeing tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge I have not seen horns, tails or fire and brimstone on any of the three.
> 
> ...


 
Actually Ken , I haven't accused any CPC member of being a right wing nut, although if you are honest you will admit there is a faction that are religious fundamentalists, homophobes and racists.  I am sure you recall the cabinet minister who on camera in the early 90s referred to fags with dirt under their fingernails.....very progressive, if the MP holds that view I wonder about his constituents.

 To be honest , it is only Harper and the ex-Harrisites and current neo-cons that I can't stand. I wasn't fond of Chretien and Martin and the way they turned Canada into a corprotocracy, but I'll give them credit for being good fiscal managers.

 I can't say Mulroney was great at the fiscal management ,  but I still admired him for standing up to Thatcher on South Africa back in '89 and for his progressive views on social issues.

It is not Liberal party Kook-Aid I have been drinking, it is revulsion at the Harper hemlock.


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## Blade96 (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Guys you accuse the CPC and it 100 000+ members of being right wing nuts, sorry the vast majority of us are intelligent, educated, middle class, centrists, who care very deeply about this country and our people. (You would not believe the amount of atheists involved). We are by no means perfect, nor have we every claimed to be.
> 
> I refuse to swallow anyone&#8217;s Cool Aid, even my own parties. I think for myself, I argue points I believe in, even if it goes against what the Leader believes. I had dinner with a cabinet minister this past Monday and lunch with another, this past Tuesday. I am having a coffee with an NDP candidate tomorrow morning. The two ministers are intelligent, accomplished and personable people as is the NDP candidate I am seeing tomorrow. To the best of my knowledge I have not seen horns, tails or fire and brimstone on any of the three.
> 
> ...


 
With all due respect, (especially because I like you and think you are nice and intelligent, too) I dont think I've swallowed anyone's Cool - Aid. believe me, if I lived in a so called 'communist' country I'd have been put up against the wall a long time ago. because I have a little nasty habit of thinking for myself. =]

 another thing I have never forgiven this government for and I'll never forget this, is when Stephen Harper said the ordinary Canadian does not care about the arts. What an insult. so much so it helped turn Quebecers off from him. and also to people like me who've dedicated my whole life to the arts. My degree is bachelor of arts. I'm a hockey and sports fan which are not just sports, they are arts. I study martial arts. and I'm an 'ordinary' Canadian. Imagine that.

He also said that Canadians dont care that parliament is shut down until March. That is a ie, and I know it, everyone knows it.


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

My mistake, he wasn't a cabinet minister but a back bencher.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/409937


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## Blade96 (Jan 24, 2010)

also, I couldnt stand the Alliance or Reform parties either when they existed. They are a type of conservatism that did not exist for the old Progressive Conservative Party.  I couldnt stand Harper or manning or any of them long before the mackay and harper joined their parties together. btw Did you know the old alliance (previous reform) party had a link to Canadian neo nazis? Dont take my word for it, look it up.

These New people are not Tories, to my mind. Tories are Progressive Conservatives, in my mind. My father was a member of the PC's for years. attended PC leadership conventions in the 1980's and 1990's. When they - mackay and harper - joined their party together to make one big party, and my father found out what Harper was like, he broke with them and canceled his membership.  

Btw I feel harper wanted to do that cause he knew he wouldn't have a shot in hell at getting any power with the parties he was with. And how about the scrapping the gun registry? Harper got them to vote against this by putting several MP's under duress, making false pamphlets about them with lying statements. so they felt like they couldnt say no. He made tv commercials saying that ignatieff was 'just visiting' canada and that he couldnt run the country because he had lived and worked away for a time. How does that make him incapable of running a country, on the contrary, a PM with a knowledge of thw world is actually good. ( I'm not that fond of Ignatieff for reasons having nothing to do with the fact that he lived abroad. Just saying that that doesnt mean anyone is incapable of being a decent PM.)


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Guys you accuse the CPC and it 100 000+ members of being right wing nuts, sorry the vast majority of us are intelligent, educated, middle class, centrists, who care very deeply about this country and our people. (You would not believe the amount of atheists involved). We are by no means perfect, nor have we every claimed to be.



Just an aside for non-Canadian posters. The former federal Progressive Conservative Party splintered somewhat in the eighties and nineties with the formation of the federal Bloc Quebecois and the Reform Party. The Bloc consisted of Conservative members in Quebec who jumped ship and formed a party built on special status or separation for Quebec. To this day the Bloc -- a federal party in name only -- fields candidates in the Province of Quebec only.

Now the Reform Party was very much a western enterprise. While they fielded candidates across the country, they never won a federal seat east of Ontario to the best of my recollection. I think they managed one seat in Ontario at that. Over time they renamed themselves The Canadian Alliance before they finally reformed with the Conservatives to make the Conservative Party of Canada.

Reform / Alliance folks always made me a little queasy. Their first leader Preston Manning wanted to be PM of Canada, but never troubled himself to learn French -- one of our two official languages. The party had an anti-immigration sensibility. They didn't seem to me to value our traditional social safety net.

When they reformed with the traditional conservatives, some critics at the time called it a takeover of conservatism by the Reform / Alliance. I believe both Mackay and Harper come from Reform. They've got the stink of that era on them, and I think that has what has prevented the party from winning a majority gov't in the last two elections.

If I'm completely honest though, I'd have to say while I'd prefer to see one of the other parties at the helm, I really haven't seen them doing anything to stand out. Jack Layton, head of the party I have generally voted for, the NDP, is an affable guy. I've met him a couple of times. I liked much of what he did as a local politician in Toronto. 

Michael Ignatieff, the Liberal Party leader, is much more capable than his predecessor Dion, but I still haven't seen a break out moment in his leadership.

I think as much as I don't care for Harper, as long as he's in a minority government, which curtails his movements, it's probably as good as things are going to get right now. His proroguing of Parliament really sticks in my craw. Apart from the fact that prorogation halts the inquiry into handling of prisoners in Afghanistan, we're still tough economic times, and MPs should be at work.

It'll be interesting to see how the Opposition handles this when they get back. If Harper continues to take a bashing in the polls, this might be the time for (1) the Opposition to bring down the government, or (2) for the Tories to get themselves a good candidate to lead the party.


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## Blade96 (Jan 24, 2010)

I'd also like to say that those who did speak on this (me included) dont like harper. I'd like to hear also from Conservative members like Ken. come on, Ken, speak. I dont bite  I'd like to hear your thoughts too, on some of the issues we are chatting about. 

also never forget the first thing Harper did when he took power first in 2006 was to hold a vote to overturn Martin's granting same sex couples the right to marry. I still have newspaper articles from that. something I never forgot - first thing he wanted to do was try and take away people's rights.


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> When they reformed with the traditional conservatives, some critics at the time called it a takeover of conservatism by the Reform / Alliance. I believe both Mackay and Harper come from Reform. They've got the stink of that era on them, and I think that has what has prevented the party from winning a majority gov't in the last two elections.



 Actually MacKay IIRC Mackay was the head of the PC party and after pledging not to join the Alliance broke his word only months later.


The other thing that annoys me about Harper is his Rove type politics, attacking Colvin and the other parties as unpatriotic for trying to find out about the Afghan detainees, or saying how they are betraying the Canadian soldiers is attack politics as its worse.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 24, 2010)

Mackay was from the PC side of things.

The Alliance side of the party is a minority, the old PCers, (Cest Moi) and the new members since the merger make up the vast majority of the CPC.

As for Iffy? Come on, it stinks of entitlement when someone who hasnt lived in this country in over 30 years, is recruited by the party hierarchy to come back and lead the party into the promised land. 

As for Jack? Five words: Bob Rae, Premier of Ontario. Never, ever F***n again!! The common man my ***, Jack walks around in $2000 tailor made suits, and has old union ideas better left to the 1950s. The ordinary Canadian he courts is nothing like he thinks it is. He is so far out of touch, its incredible. 

BTW Bob Rae prorogued the Ontario legislature 3 times in his 4 yearsI wont even get into Chrétien doing the same.

You will not see an election this year. The LPC still has not rebuilt its $$, Ontario has its municipals in the fall, and the CPC is still ahead in the polls. Next Spring at the earliest.

Actually what Harper did for SSM, was let the members have a free vote, whereby members from *all* parties shoot it down. It didnt mean anything because its a provincial matter anyway.  

Keep drinking the cool aid boys and girls.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 24, 2010)

Side note.

I never liked Preston Manning, in fact most of his ideas I am firmly against, but I had dinner with him a couple of years ago and managed to have a really deep discussion with the man. Then he gave his speech and I chatted with him again.

No matter what you think of his ideas, he is one of the most intelligent and most genuinely nice men you can ever have the privilege of meeting. He completely surprised and floored me that night. 

One thing I learned about that night? When it comes to politics, leave your prejudices and biases at the door.


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Keep drinking the cool aid boys and girls&#8230;.



Us?  You're the one that said the CPC aren't right wingnuts, but I see you avoided the issue of Lukiwski who sits for them in Parliament.

 Actually Ken, on most issues you and I are on the same side of the fence and I quite enjoy your posts,  since you seem to be in with the Tories maybe you can do something about swinging back to their traditional values as in he Joe Clark era and away from the neo-cons, fundies and homophobes.


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## Blade96 (Jan 24, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Side note.
> 
> I never liked Preston Manning, in fact most of his idea&#8217;s I am firmly against, but I had dinner with him a couple of years ago and managed to have a really deep discussion with the man. Then he gave his speech and I chatted with him again.
> 
> ...


 
yeah, Mackay was a PC. 

a lot of these people are like what you described, in fact if I happened to run into Harper on the street or have dinner with him I'd probably like him as a person. My parents met him in 2006 during the campaign and said he's nice to chat to. I just dont like him as a leader. or his political beliefs and views. and neither do my parents anymore. 

its weird Ihave had friends like that.....who were my friends but when it came to politics, religion, whatever, i thought they were bat **** crazy otherwise =] One of them was a seventh day adventist who still believes and teaches people that the earth is only 4,000 years old. Goes to show Ken is right - you can like these people as persons but not in the religious or political sphere.

I could tell Ken's a tory. not with the right wing nutbars.


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## Ramirez (Jan 24, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> a lot of these people are like what you described, in fact if I happened to run into Harper on the street or have dinner with him I'd probably like him as a person. My parents met him in 2006 during the campaign and said he's nice to chat to. I just dont like him as a leader. or his political beliefs and views. and neither do my parents anymore.
> 
> I could tell Ken's a tory. not with the right wing nutbars.



Well I doubt you could be a successful politician without putting on a charming face to the public,  however you could be a complete a-hole in private,  by all accounts Chretien was a son of a ***** in private,  so was Mulroney.

 And I agree about Ken, he is anything but a right wing nutbar but I think he projects that on the rest of the party.  Hell,  maybe the Ontario wing isn't like that at all but I would guess differently about out west and former Alliance strong holds.


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## JDenver (Jan 24, 2010)

I really just don't get it.  I think, like Ken says, that Conservative voters are pretty smart.  So what happened?  

Didn't they vote for 'accountability' and 'transparency'?!  It's almost absurd to write it down, there's such a disconnect in the actions of the party.  This is the most secretive government I've ever seen.  This government is shocking in how they flaunt their disdain for people.  

Remember the pamphlet they circulated to members about how to disrupt and dismantle the important work of committees by walking out, not showing up, changing the schedules last minute, and so forth?  That alone is so egregious they should have been run out of office for it - and no, no other party has EVER done something so obviously malicious and undemocratic.  MP's who have been there for decades show shock and frustration at current Conservative tactics.

I won't ever again believe that Conservative voters are intelligent and decent people until they ask for more from the party they choose to support.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks, guys, for the correction on Mackay.


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## Blade96 (Jan 25, 2010)

i like cool aid btw. Just make mine raspberry =]

in seriousness, ken does have a point about the cool aid. some drink cool aid' of the liberals and ndp and such. I dont, but some do. and they'll say "naw my party dont stink' when in fact it might smell of bad eggs.

but those of the Conservatives should be careful not to drink in their party's Cool Aid either. they are loyal so they should be careful their loyalty does not get them to drink coolaid they shouldnt be drinking. I understand with you, ken, you like tories. and you wouldn't wanna say too much bad about Harper, because, he is your leader. 

I'd say though, just keep an eye on him. He isnt a tory of the PC kind.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 25, 2010)

In fairness, I don't think any of the anti-Harper posters here qualify as Kool Aid drinkers per se. None of us has ringingly endorsed any of the opposition parties. Realistically, though, the partisan filter prevents us from seeing flaws equally. I hadn't realized that Bob Rae had prorogued parliament. It comes down to perspective, I guess. To me, Bob Rae -- for all his faults -- kept me in a job (teaching community college) by instituting a number of unpaid days off work for public employees. Mike Harris had thousands of us on the streets within a year after taking office. Such things profoundly how we percieve our leaders.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 25, 2010)

Theres drinking Cool Aid and then theres sipping Cool Aid.

If we like one leader or party, we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt when we hear stuff, and equally dismiss those we arent fond of with scorn or mistrust. Everyone has a bias, everyone. 

Every time you hear any and all politicians speak, they are speaking in such a way as to make themselves and their parties appear in the best possible light. Thats part of their job. I read at least four or five news sources everyday, because I know there is a bias in all of them. I even read the news off of the party sites too. 

Have you ever noticed the left leaning papers? Whenever the Feds do something good, the headline is Ottawa does., but whenever its something bad, the headline is Harper does or Conservatives do.   

I hate all media, I just want facts!! Let me make up my own opinion!! :shock:

Has anyone, besides nerdy me,  actually read the policy documents published by the major parties? There is some good stuff in all of them. I guarantee that if you read any of it you would agree with 80% - 90% of it all, even the CPC stuff. It all comes from the political grass roots, you, me and Bob next door. There is Green and NDP stuff youd swear was CPC and CPC stuff youd swear was LPC or NDP. Try giving some of it a read sometimewhen you have problems falling asleep


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## Ramirez (Jan 25, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> In fairness, I don't think any of the anti-Harper posters here qualify as Kool Aid drinkers per se. None of us has ringingly endorsed any of the opposition parties. Realistically, though, the partisan filter prevents us from seeing flaws equally. I hadn't realized that Bob Rae had prorogued parliament. It comes down to perspective, I guess. To me, Bob Rae -- for all his faults -- kept me in a job (teaching community college) by instituting a number of unpaid days off work for public employees. Mike Harris had thousands of us on the streets within a year after taking office. Such things profoundly how we percieve our leaders.


 

 I never like Rae's policies, but but I always thought Rae had integrity.  
Peterson I never forgave for playing Captain Canada and offering to give up Ontario's senate seats to Quebec in perpetuity during the Meech Lake meetings.

on the federal level , Chretien and Martin screwed over Ontario on equalization  and things like EI benefits. I was quite happy at the time when Ontario turned on them after years of neglect and dismissal as to Ontario's concerns.

 Actually Ken I was a CPC member when Harper first ran for leader, although I joined more to vote against Stronach who had the arrogance to think an entry level job in politics for her was prime minister....guess she thought Daddy owned Parliament too.  So I was one of the ones that voted for Harper as CPC leader.


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## Gordon Nore (Jan 25, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> Actually Ken I was a CPC member when Harper first ran for leader, although I joined more to vote against Stronach who had the arrogance to think an entry level job in politics for her was prime minister....guess she thought Daddy owned Parliament too.  So I was one of the ones that voted for Harper as CPC leader.



You were a member of the Communist Party of Canada, Mark? :uhyeah: Kidding.

Yeah, Stronach's play for the Tory leadership at the first go-round was pretty bold. I was actually a bit startled to see that she trotted out former Ontario Premier Mike Harris at the convention -- he was sitting with her camp. Remember when Jean Charest (December 14, 1993  April 2, 1998) was the federal Tory leader, down to two seats, then only one seat in the House? He wouldn't take a meeting with Harris. So Stronach putting Harris out, front and centre, was an indication to me that she was playing to the far right of the party.

Then, out of nowhere, not seconds after seeing her squeeze Mackay, she goes into a meeting with PM Jean Chretian and walks out a newly minted Liberal. How do you go from palling around with Mike Harris to being a Chretian Liberal in, what, a few months?

Mind you, Stronach wasn't the first to aim high. Gerard Kennedy went after Bob Rae's old seat and Lynn MacLeod's old job as Ontario Liberal Leader. He ran the Ministry of Education in Ontario for a few years, and then ran for the federal Liberal leadership. Layton essentially leap-frogged from local Toronto politician to national NDP leader. It happens.

I'd like to see Kennedy take another run at the federal Liberal leadership. He's smart and hard-working. He brought all kinds of peace and goodwill back into the education sector in Ontario. I'd part with my traditional NDP vote to support him.


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## Blade96 (Jan 26, 2010)

Stronach is a douchenozzle. I still think that.


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