# Post your lineage to GM Hwang Kee



## TSDTexan

Hwang Lee, 
J.C. Shin #698
Floyd Guidry (Osan Air Base) #4824
Richard York
Me.


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## Dirty Dog

HWANG, Kee
LEE, Kang-Ik
KIM, Wang (Bobby)
VALDEZ, Charles Ray
Me. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Touch Of Death

Ed Parker
Sterling Peacock (for a bit)
Jack Oyler
Skip Hancock 
Sean Wold (that's me  )


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## TSDTexan

Hwang Kee, 
J.C. Shin #698
Floyd Guidry (Osan Air Base) #4824
Richard York
Me..... Stupid autocorrect slipped a name change in there.....

Ed Parker wasn't a TSDMDK guy. Touch of D.


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## TSDTexan

*Hey Dirty Dog...

LEE, Kang-Ik, 10th Dan, Bon number # 70 
*
KIM, Wang (Bobby)... Did Hwang Kee ever give Bon numbers to guys who left the TSDMDK, to join Taesoodo/taekwondo Unified Kwans?

But you got a great pedigree, and it really counts if you are still teaching combat oriented TSD curriculum, and not points in tournament TKD.

Long after GM Floyd got his first Dan, JC Shin came to help branch and setup MDK to the USA... But politics, eventually led JC Shin to form a new Federation... And then he modified curriculum.

Name changes dont bother me near as much as modified forms, and techniques.


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## reeskm

I have three lines, but since split from one organisation it has changed.

If I don't consider organisations, this is the direct line:
-Hwang Kee
-Butch Moody-Webster (?, from Inkster, Mi circa 1975)
-Carl Tate, Jr. (#15072)

Until 2011 (American Tang Soo Do Association):
-Hwang Kee
-Richard Byrne (#14945)
-Carl Tate, Jr. (#15072)

2011-present (World Moo Duk Kwan General Fed):
-Hwang Kee
-Yong-duk Kim (#2)
-Carl Tate, Jr. (#15072)


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## kitkatninja

My lineage spans quite a few instructors and arts, so I'm only posting a snapshot of my TSD lineage (as that is what was asked in this thread).


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## Drose427

Kee > Sok Ho Kang (My KJN) > Master Chuck Hannah (regional head instructor, my KJNS right hand man) > Master Ben Rush (SahBumNimRush was his username I believe) > Me


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## reeskm

TSDTexan said:


> Did Hwang Kee ever give Bon numbers to guys who left the TSDMDK, to join Taesoodo/taekwondo Unified Kwans?



I believe he did, in certain circumstances, especially if he felt it might persuade someone to rejoin him or if they were promoting MDK at the time.

At the very least, they would have received their dan bon # prior to their split with Hwang, and then kept it for life. You would get a number upon Chodan, and it would not change upon subsequent gradings, even if you staid with Hwang.


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## Muwubu16858

Hwang Kee --- Oh Sae Joon --- Lee Jung Hwan --- Me (Michael Sabia)

My teacher also was the nephew through marriage of Ji Do Kwan founder Yoon Kwai Byeong, who trained under Mabuni Kenwa and Toyama Kanken, and trained with him, as well.


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## TSDTexan

Muwubu16858 said:


> Hwang Kee --- Oh Sae Joon --- Lee Jung Hwan --- Me (Michael Sabia)
> 
> My teacher also was the nephew through marriage of Ji Do Kwan founder Yoon Kwai Byeong, who trained under Mabuni Kenwa and Toyama Kanken, and trained with him, as well.


So your teacher knows the KwanBopBu Chinese forms as well?

The predecessor school to Chang Moo Kwan (which eventually became the Ji Do Kwan) was first called "YMCA Kwon Bop Bu" (권법무).

It was founded in 1946 under the leadership of Byung-In Yoon at the YMCA in the Jong No district of Seoul (also sometimes romanized as _Jong Ro_).

Byung In Yoon (also spelled asYoon Kwai Byeong) had previously studied Chinese Kung Fu during his 8-year stay in Manchuria. 

In 1937, Yoon enrolled at Nihon University in Tokyo, where Toyama Kanken reportedly taught Shūdōkan karate to Yoon in exchange for quanfa lessons.

Toyama later included some of his taijiquan in his curriculum for advanced students. (That he learned from Yoon)

Yoon became captain of Nihon University’s karate team and was awarded fourth or fifth dan (depending on the source) and a master’s certificate by Toyama.

A little known fact is that Yoon Kwai Byeong taught Hwang Kee a number of Chinese Forms, (according to Hwang Kee himself)


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## SahBumNimRush

Hwang Kee
Sok Ho Kang (uncertain of his dan bon, but he is listed relatively high on the Moo Duk Kwan family tree in Kang Uk Lee's book.)
Chuck Hannah
Benjamin Rush (me)


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## Muwubu16858

Yoon Byung-In and Yoon Kwai Byung were not the same person. Yoon Byung-In dissapeared sometime during the Korean War, while Yoon Kwai Byung continued to teach afterward in Seoul. However, this is an easy mistake because both were 4th Dan Shihan registered in the Shudokan under Toyama. Also, Yoon Kwai Byung ran a dojo in Japan proper called the Kanbukan in the 1940s.


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## TSDTexan

Muwubu16858 said:


> Yoon Byung-In and Yoon Kwai Byung were not the same person. Yoon Byung-In dissapeared sometime during the Korean War, while Yoon Kwai Byung continued to teach afterward in Seoul. However, this is an easy mistake because both were 4th Dan Shihan registered in the Shudokan under Toyama. Also, Yoon Kwai Byung ran a dojo in Japan proper called the Kanbukan in the 1940s.



Wow. Actually. I know a detail or two about the kanbukan.
If it were not for Yoon Kwai Byung "karate" would have ended post war at least on Mainland Japan.

The US had pretty much outlawed Japanese martial arts, but korean nationals, and Okinawans were allowed free reign to do their own thing.

In Japan he was known as Yun Heui-byeong.
He was made headman at the Renbukan so the American Admiralty and Army Top Brass would allow the Renbukan to exist.
Renbukan = 2nd edition of Toyama's
“Zen Nippon Karatedo Renmei”

The following link is very much worth a read.
Karate, Taekwondo, crecent kicks etc. | Ryukyu Bugei 琉球武芸

I had thought they were the same person.  After
Yun Heui-byeong’s return to Korea, he began using the name Yun Kwae-byeong

I thought he was the same individual who went missing during the Korean War.


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## reeskm

As I cross-train with a local Renbukai school (in KU I might add!) here in town, I can tell you some more goodies on Yun Kwei-byung:
- they still revere him. 
- they don't really understand tang soo do at all in the sense that they tend to lump me in the taekwondo stylists. Its very hard to tell them how many similarities there are between renbukai and the tangsoodo that I practice.
- I now see that modern "moodukkwan" has jidokwan techniques in it. I see this because the renbukai school does almost the same thing as I do, or others do.
- for example, the way they do junbi chase (naturally they use a japanese term) is the pull back to the hips and put the hands out in front of the groin, just like most of us do
- i now see two junbi chase styles in moo duk kwan: the pull back to hips and push out is very jidokwan/renbukai in style. the cross arms across the body and down to the waist level is much more shotokan style.

Another really huge interesting thing? This renbukai school, and Pat McCarthy and his KU techniques, emphasize flowing full body movements and hip rotations in every technique. Hmm, where have I seen that before? Definitely not exclusive to MDK as some think...


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## TSDTexan

reeskm said:


> As I cross-train with a local Renbukai school (in KU I might add!) here in town, I can tell you some more goodies on Yun Kwei-byung:
> - they still revere him.
> - they don't really understand tang soo do at all in the sense that they tend to lump me in the taekwondo stylists. Its very hard to tell them how many similarities there are between renbukai and the tangsoodo that I practice.
> - I now see that modern "moodukkwan" has jidokwan techniques in it. I see this because the renbukai school does almost the same thing as I do, or others do.
> - for example, the way they do junbi chase (naturally they use a japanese term) is the pull back to the hips and put the hands out in front of the groin, just like most of us do
> - i now see two junbi chase styles in moo duk kwan: the pull back to hips and push out is very jidokwan/renbukai in style. the cross arms across the body and down to the waist level is much more shotokan style.
> 
> Another really huge interesting thing? This renbukai school, and Pat McCarthy and his KU techniques, emphasize flowing full body movements and hip rotations in every technique. Hmm, where have I seen that before? Definitely not exclusive to MDK as some think...


As of this moment, I am very much of a personal opinion that Yoon Byung-In (this has support) and Yun Kwei-byung (no evidence yet) taught Hwang Kee okinawan forms.

Of course it could have been just Yoon Byung-In.
But I have a Toyama tradition dojo in my town, and the Sensei does a LOT of things the way TSD does...
Or is it the other way around?

This and I believe instruction (Hwang Kee's) from Gogen Yamaguichi (Goju kai founder) happened in Manchuria.


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## SahBumNimRush

Ki Whang KIM who was affiliated with the Moo Duk Kwan, also held dan rank in Shudokan under Toyama Sensei.  Ki Whang KIM joined the Moo Duk Kwan around the same time that my KJN joined the Moo Duk Kwan.  He was an early ambassador of the Moo Duk Kwan in the United States.


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## reeskm

Let's keep our posts related to our lineage from Hwang Kee? We're starting to speculate here.

Forgive me for a slightly off topic post, but to clear up previous comments, as this thread is getting off topic, I wrote this new thread.


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

I need to get more information as to this from my Grandfather as I was always told the bellow was our lineage, however I've seen other people list him as a direct student under Hwang Kee.  So its either:


Hwang Kee
Kyongwon Ahn
Me

or as my grandfather told me long ago

Hwang Kee
Jong Soo Hong
Chong Bok Lee
Kyongwon Ahn
Me


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## TSDTexan

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I need to get more information as to this from my Grandfather as I was always told the bellow was our lineage, however I've seen other people list him as a direct student under Hwang Kee.  So its either:
> 
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me
> 
> or as my grandfather told me long ago
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Jong Soo Hong
> Chong Bok Lee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me


Welcome Drew


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## Drew Ahn-Kim

TSDTexan said:


> Welcome Drew


thanks TSD, glad I found this forum


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## SahBumNimRush

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I need to get more information as to this from my Grandfather as I was always told the bellow was our lineage, however I've seen other people list him as a direct student under Hwang Kee.  So its either:
> 
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me
> 
> or as my grandfather told me long ago
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Jong Soo Hong
> Chong Bok Lee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me


 

Do you know if the above mentioned "Jong Soo Hong" is the same person listed as Chong Soo HONG, one of the Moo Duk Kwan three senior ranks who led the support of the unification process in 1965?


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## reeskm

SahBumNimRush said:


> Do you know if the above mentioned "Jong Soo Hong" is the same person listed as Chong Soo HONG, one of the Moo Duk Kwan three senior ranks who led the support of the unification process in 1965?



I sincerely hope Drew will be able to confirm this for us - but I am quite suire it is one and the same. "Jong" and "Chong" should be for the same hangul. Jong is probably newer romanization.

And Drew - is your grandfather Kyongwon Ahn? Wow, now that is something pretty special. Is he still well? I hope so.


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## reeskm

TSDTexan said:


> As of this moment, I am very much of a personal opinion that Yoon Byung-In (this has support) and Yun Kwei-byung (no evidence yet) taught Hwang Kee okinawan forms.
> 
> Of course it could have been just Yoon Byung-In.
> But I have a Toyama tradition dojo in my town, and the Sensei does a LOT of things the way TSD does...
> Or is it the other way around?
> 
> This and I believe instruction (Hwang Kee's) from Gogen Yamaguichi (Goju kai founder) happened in Manchuria.



For years I've grappled with the subject of where MDK techniques came from. I am not yet willing to believe that Hwang Kee learned it from a specific person.

TSDTexan, I agree with you that there is a very definite Shudokan similarity. I have long ago rejected the idea that there is only a Shotokan connection. It is way more complex than that.

However, I am fairly certain that the link between Hwang and Yamaguchi was completely without merit and discredited. AFAIK - the only link was that they met when they both joined the AKF/FAJKO movement in the 60's (which deepened when it morphed into the WUKO charter in 1970).

My current theory is that it is more plausible that Hwang learned karate from someone in Seoul pre-1945 or from someone in Manchuria while he was with the railway. Possible people on my list to look into that were in Manchuria with the SMR currently include Hiroshi Kinjo and Kori Hisataka aka Seiki Kudaka.


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## TSDTexan

The mystery is deep and great. And the 1950s (and forward) anti Japanese sentiment has done much to destroy history as anything. We won't have facts of any sort that are pure and held without being scornfully suspect.

We will have half prices and conjecture.


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## SahBumNimRush

I suspected as much.

Drew did state that Kyongwon AHN is his grandfather.  An impressive lineage, indeed!  My KJN and GM AHN were childhood friends, and it was that relationship that landed my KJN in WV (not far away from GM AHN in Cincinatti, OH).


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## SahBumNimRush

reeskm said:


> I sincerely hope Drew will be able to confirm this for us - but I am quite suire it is one and the same. "Jong" and "Chong" should be for the same hangul. Jong is probably newer romanization.
> 
> And Drew - is your grandfather Kyongwon Ahn? Wow, now that is something pretty special. Is he still well? I hope so.



I suspected as much.

Drew did state that Kyongwon AHN is his grandfather.  My KJN and GM AHN were childhood friends.  It was that relationship that brought my KJN to WV (not far away from GM AHN in Cincinatti, OH).


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## reeskm

TSDTexan said:


> The mystery is deep and great. And the 1950s (and forward) anti Japanese sentiment has done much to destroy history as anything. We won't have facts of any sort that are pure and held without being scornfully suspect.
> 
> We will have half prices and conjecture.



Yeah, I know.  But sooner or later, someone is bound to understand why all of us are so interested. I still hold out hope that there is possibility of getting somewhere! In the end, understanding this is not a matter of whether Japanese, Okinawan or Korean martial arts is better than the other but instead to understand who we all are as martial artists, and to understand history and all the postiive and negative that goes with it.


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## reeve87

Hwang kee
sarbonnim hedges (head of uk mdk)
master salter
peter reeve (me) Dan bon 48870
cant remember hedges or salters Dan bon off the top of my head


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## Runs With Fire

Direct lineage to Hwang Kee

1.  Grand Master Hwang Kee
2.  To His Graduate – Grand Master Song Ki Kim
3.  To His Graduate – Grand Master Kwon Ho Chon
4.  To His Graduate – Dojunim Bill Church
5. To a crazy, non-traditional redneck graduate which he will not publicly admit to, me


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## Runs With Fire

I think there were three different paths to Hwang  Kee, but this one the most direct.


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## TSD_BrewNinja

Hwang Kee 
HC Hwang
Frederick Scott
Samuel Wallace
Me


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## Martial D

I ate at a Korean restaurant once...


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## Tames D

I drove by a Korean restaurant once...


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## Bo_Howell

Drew Ahn-Kim said:


> I need to get more information as to this from my Grandfather as I was always told the bellow was our lineage, however I've seen other people list him as a direct student under Hwang Kee.  So its either:
> 
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me
> 
> or as my grandfather told me long ago
> 
> Hwang Kee
> Jong Soo Hong
> Chong Bok Lee
> Kyongwon Ahn
> Me


Drew, we have a similar lineage. If your grandfather is Ahn Kyong Won, then here is our lineage (based on a handwritten note from Ahn Kyong Won to Charles Beyersdoerfer):

Hwang Kee
Hong Chung Soo (also spelled Hong Jung Soo)
Lee Buk Sung (also spelled Lee Buk Chung)
Ahn Kyong Won (you stop here, mine keeps going)
Beyersdoerfer, Charles
Radcliffe, Steven


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