# Multiple attackers in a parking lot...



## geezer (Jul 9, 2009)

Down in "The Study", Bill Mattocks started a thread on a story about a racist attack in Canada. Three white toughs jumped a black man, Mr. Jay Phillips in a parking lot. Mr. Phillips put up a pretty good fight, although at one point it went to the ground and things looked pretty bad for him. Like everyone says, _the ground game doesn't work against multiple attackers_. Fortunately, he made it back to his feet and soon the three punks decided they'd had enough, piled back into their pickup and took off. 

Anyway, after thinking about this for awhile, I thought it might be a good topic to revisit here. I teach high school and one thing I hear from the kids I work with is that ganging up on people to beat the crap out of them is getting so common that it's becoming the norm these days. A lot of kids don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, some feel that going into a "fair fight", one against one, is downright stupid. Well if that's becoming the social norm, or the reality for our times, maybe it deserves a lot more attention. What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers. And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2009)

Oh, another thought. 

One thing I _did_ learn from watching the videoclip on the gang attack mentioned above, was some good strategies if you are in the gang! 

If you are in a group going after a single victim, even if he's big and powerful, apparently you do it like wolves going after a big caribou or other prey. You spread out and try to flank him. Then dart in and out from different angles to tire and confuse him. Then one of you shoots in and grapples onto him, tying him up and trying to take him to the ground. While the prey is momentarily tied up, the rest of the pack jumps on him from all sides, hemming him in while kicking and punching until he's done for. 

Now, if you are really going to be like wolves, you need to rip your victim open with your teeth and eat him!


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 9, 2009)

Out of all the arts I've studied over the years, kenpo is the only one that actually has a curriculum for dealing with multiple attackers. 

Some things I've learned from that are:
(1) Strike the closest attacker first and make it count. For instance a hard sword hand to the throat or a devastating kick to the knee...something that is likely to take them out of the mix quickly.

(2) Use your envirnonmnet. Position yourself so that there are obstacles between you and at least some of the attackers. Could be something material, or could actually be one of the attackers. Could be something as simple as putting your back to the sun.

(3) Make note of your environment. Look for things you can easily get to and use as a weapon; pipe, brick, rock, broom, bottle, fork, a handful of dirt...whatever...use your imagination. 

(4) Move. Don't remain static; be mobile. Use your footwork

(5) Remain calm and focused.

(6) Take the first opportunity to escape to safety.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Some things I've learned from that are:
> 
> (1) Strike the closest attacker first and make it count.
> (2) Use your envirnonment.
> ...



Good list. Mind if I use it?

In the attack previously mentioned (dang, I wish I knew how to embed the Youtube clip, a little help anyone?) Mr. Phillips did a pretty good job with _No. 4: moving._ He was evasive and kept his attackers from flanking him. He tried to address _No. 1: Taking out the closest attacker/leader_, but was using punches, not some crippling/lethal technique... and although he landed some good shots, they didn't stop the attack.

On the other hand he did not do so well at _No.s 2/3: using the environment._ I can't help but wonder how you might best exploit a parking lot situation. One option might be to move into the gap between two parked cars, toward the rear so you can exit and not have someone come up behind you. That way your opponents have to move into the gap one at a time as they pursue you, You could kinda make your stand, one-on-one a la _Leonides and the 300 at Thermopylae_. The trick is to be back far enough that you can exit easily if they try send someone around behind you... or you're screwed. I mean we all saw what happened in the movie, right?

Finally, Mr. Phillips lost sight of_ No.s 5 & 6: staying calm and escaping at the first opportunity._ If he had remained calm and hadn't responded to the verbal taunts of these jerks, as "Lucky" pointed out on the original thread, the whole ugly incident might have been avoided. And, regarding "escape", he appeared to have had plenty of opportunity to run away, but chose to stand and fight. But honestly, can you blame him?


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> Good list. Mind if I use it?


 
It's not copyrighted. LOL Go ahead...if it benefits somebody down the road it's worth spreading. 



geezer said:


> In the attack previously mentioned (dang, I wish I knew how to embed the Youtube clip, a little help anyone?) Mr. Phillips did a pretty good job with _No. 4: moving._ He was evasive and kept his attackers from flanking him. He tried to address _No. 1: Taking out the closest attacker/leader_, but was using punches, not some crippling/lethal technique... and although he landed some good shots, they didn't stop the attack.


 
Yup. He managed to keep moving although he almost bit it once when he hit the ground. In his case it was enough, but next time? Maybe not. 

Anybody can throw a punch, but martial artists should know how to apply the proper weapon to the proper target. In this clip I noticed early on one of the attacker's got close to his right shoulder partially cutting off the other two...perfect opportunity to have delivered a sword hand to that guys throat. One down, two to go...



geezer said:


> On the other hand he did not do so well at _No.s 2/3: using the environment._ I can't help but wonder how you might best exploit a parking lot situation. One option might be to move into the gap between two parked cars, toward the rear so you can exit and not have someone come up behind you. That way your opponents have to move into the gap one at a time as they pursue you, You could kinda make your stand, one-on-one a la _Leonides and the 300 at Thermopylae_. The trick is to be back far enough that you can exit easily if they try send someone around behind you... or you're screwed. I mean we all saw what happened in the movie, right?


 
Yup. That would be an option. Maybe move into the gap and try and open a car door to block their pursuit...like I said...gotta use yer head! Martial arts ain't all about being physical. 

Or even just use a single vehicle as an obstacle to put between you and them, or to serve to split them up so that you have a few seconds to engage and take out another one while the other(s) circle around trying to get to you...use your imagination. 



geezer said:


> Finally, Mr. Phillips lost sight of_ No.s 5 & 6: staying calm and escaping at the first opportunity._ If he had remained calm and hadn't responded to the verbal taunts of these jerks, as "Lucky" pointed out on the original thread, the whole ugly incident might have been avoided. And, regarding "escape", he appeared to have had plenty of opportunity to run away, but chose to stand and fight. But honestly, can you blame him?


 
Very good point. The first rule of self defense (as I was told) is to not put yourself into a position where you have to use it! 

I don't know if I'd want to turn my back to those guys, but he definately appeared to not be looking for an escape route. LOL


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## blackxpress (Jul 9, 2009)

geezer raises a very good point.  Gang attacks do seem to be on the rise.  I didn't used to think that much about it but in view of the trend it seems like I need to adjust my thinking.  I was in a situation just a couple of weeks ago where I thought I might end up needing these skills.  I was at a convenience store when 3 belligerent (and big) teenagers came into the store and started terrorizing the place.  They were completely out of control and clearly looking for trouble.  For some reason they kept looking at me.  Maybe it's because I was the biggest guy in the place.  The manager kicked them out of the store and called the police.  I made sure they were gone before I went back to my car but what if they had decided to start a melee in the parking lot?  I know they were harassing one of the female customers in the parking lot before they entered the store and I was already thinking about the possibility that I might have to intervene if they ganged up on someone.  Thankfully nothing happened but I've been thinking about it ever since.  Sadly, it seems there's a real bankruptcy of parenting skills in the US and the problem is getting worse all the time.  There are a lot of really great teenagers in this country but there are also a lot of them that have basically been left alone to raise themselves.  It's kind of like wild dogs.  Few things are more dangerous than a pack of wild dogs.  They're vicious and they have no fear of humans.  Same with teenagers that have no home training.  I'd hate to have to use my skills on somebody's kid but what choice would I have if I was surrounded by a pack of wild teenagers closing in for the kill?


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jul 9, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Out of all the arts I've studied over the years, kenpo is the only one that actually has a curriculum for dealing with multiple attackers.
> 
> Some things I've learned from that are:
> (1) Strike the closest attacker first and make it count. For instance a hard sword hand to the throat or a devastating kick to the knee...something that is likely to take them out of the mix quickly.
> ...


 
A decent list.. I might make a few alterations, or rather additions to it though..
somewhere between number 1 and 2 or a combination of the two I would add to position your attackers between each other to single them off, either by moving without touching them, or through contact or control manipulation...
The last thing you want is to be taken down, you need to maintain distance from your feet and your opponent for this, at the same time the best thing for you is to get your opponents on the ground, and even better to get them tied up with each other and on the ground.

number 6 I would add a couple things...
I would say take the first safe opportunity to escape to safety... if thats your goal. Also try to clearly assess the situation and decide what is the safe way to go, many times a group of attackers know the area they are attacking you in, and will drive you towards an area they want you.... if you run towards the only opening available to you its a good chance you end up in a dead end... and I mean dead.
also it is not always safe to exit a confrontation, you have to assess whats going on, whats around you and if its safer to stay and fight, move and fight, or run.

good advice overall though.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 9, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> I'd hate to have to use my skills on somebody's kid but what choice would I have if I was surrounded by a pack of wild teenagers closing in for the kill?


 
You have two choices:
(1) Flip your mental switch from human to killing machine or..
(2) End up hospitalized or dead.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> I teach high school...


Me too, geezer, and I work with the kids who dish this stuff out. :uhyeah:



> ...and one thing I hear from the kids I work with is that ganging up on people to beat the crap out of them is getting so common that it's becoming the norm these days. A lot of kids don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, some feel that going into a "fair fight", one against one, is downright stupid. Well if that's becoming the social norm, or the reality for our times, maybe it deserves a lot more attention.


Yes, to all of your observations. It's becoming the norm, and kids see nothing amiss about it -- even if they're the victim. In those cases, they just shrug and explain, _Got caught slippin'_. It's one reason young people don't walk anywhere anymore.

The days when solid citizens could rely on someone nearby to call the police, or witnesses to take their side, are gone in many enclaves of our society.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2009)

kidswarrior said:


> ... It's becoming the norm, and kids see nothing amiss about it -- even if they're the victim. In those cases, they just shrug and explain, _Got caught slippin'_. It's one reason young people don't walk anywhere anymore...



Social norms do change over time. And to be honest, as a kid I never thought the one-on-one duel was all that fair and noble, considering that I was one of the little guys! Worked great for the big guys though.

Different cultures have different takes on "fair fighting" too. I had a conversation with a Silat instructor, a "White" American who lived for a while in Indonesia. He really admired the culture over there, and even married an Indonesian woman. But one thing he noted was that the Indonesian street fights he saw or heard about almost always involved gangs or groups attacking an individual, rather than resembling the Western "duel" between individuals. He felt that this social reality heavily influenced his art of Silat as well as his personal approach to self-defense.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 9, 2009)

I wont regurgitate what has already been listed but if I could add a couple of toppings to the cake:  

Evade and escape if at all possible...If you cant outright escape you must ruthlessly agress initially in order to escape...   

Agression must be ruthless=   when faced with multiple attackers the force is multiplied to lethal so if agression is decided it must be ruthless and violent.  

Always rotate... you need to maintain a 360 degree peripheral perimter even when striking... always rotate and use the pack mentality of lining up to your advantage...  never just move linear in your attack...always rotate. 

Line them up = it is ineficient for a group to simultaneously try to attack so they normally get thier licks and get out to give the next guy a turn... use this pack mentality to your advantage and line them up in your attacks...  of course they wont be single file...they will be staggered

Stack them up= when you strike one rotate them into each other using thier bodies against thier accomplices and continue until you have a meat pile or till you can escape...  break them on each other...use thier body weight as an anchor against each other... 

keep moving though= dont back up and dont curl in a ball...if you are escaping bulldoze your way through them if you are agressing do the same....   run them over and turn them on each other... 

Utilize the "meat shield"=  If you get your hands on one... hold on to him and make an example of him... if he is on the vergo of passing out and you have him by the throat in front of you they may decline further action...   


Improvise and Adapt=   use the terrain and forge your own outcome... do not forsake yourself common tools as labor saving devices...


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## seasoned (Jul 9, 2009)

I personally would have done a little bit more after the missed hook punch. It was a heck of a punch, but I believe the target thought it was going to land, so he did not follow up. It is always easy to armchair a situation like this, but refreshing when you can observe certain things not being done, that are taught by you, in class. When you decide to unload on someone, you need to go all out. A one shot knock down, unless you knock him out, will only piss off everyone on the other side. Once that person gets back up, you have a lot more to deal with. There is no reason a trained person can't fire off many decisive shots, including hands and feet, in a very short time frame. The more aggressive of the three, was almost taunting the target by coming in very close to draw a shot so he could come in off of it. For this very reason the target needed to unload with a barrage that would render the punk a puddle in the street, which in turn would give the other two, a choice to make. I have seen it happen, where once one goes down physically, the rest loose it a little bit mentally. You can plan all you want, but training will take over in the heat of battle, so plan in class, train hard and realistically, because in the long run there will be a time gap where your techniques will just happen.


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2009)

As a Kenpo man myself, I pretty much agree with everything that celtic crippler said.  One thing that I might say is another option would be to grab ahold of one of the attackers, using him as a shield against the others.  Now, when I say grab, I'm talking about grabbing him in a choke if possible, and while doing this, cause him some extreme pain.  Will the bad guys still try to attack me, while I have their friend?  Maybe they will, but maybe it'll be a deterrant.

Of course, seeing that the odds are already stacked against me, I'm going to grab and use the nearest weapon possible and use it.  Of course, as soon as the opportinuty presents itself, I'm going to get the hell out of there.  No need to stand around and prolong anything, any longer than necessary.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 9, 2009)

A firearm might help.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 9, 2009)

I would like to add that I couldnt view the video due to firewall regs here at work.  I also had a few mispelling that I missed...

I am however going off personal experience on this subject as I have been assaulted by multiple attackers many times in my early to late teens. The very last being at 18 years old by more than 10 men(5 marines) after declining a 1 on 1 I was struck from behind and I turned an dropped him with a shot to the lateral neck...I mounted him like a horse as he woke up and then got a bottle to the head... the rest was a bunch of racial slurs and me getting booted to the face four times along with some stomping and punching.... I was drowning in arms and then the one I knocked out mounted me and continued his racial slurs as he pounded my face a few dozen more times... I then pushed him off of me by his face and got up cursing still ready for more...  My head was split and I was visibly battered but I was ready for more... they huddled in confusion wondering what to do next as I asked them if they wanted more....   the werent going to shoot me so they gave up and I left....  buddy was already in the car with a concussion and a pretty beat up face... I went and got some staples and thats it....   This was the last time...ever.   I walked away with a very big lesson learned which I forgot to add above...

1. THIER NUMBERS ARE THIER WEAKNESS....  I dont expect everyone to understand this concept but when operating as a mob thier conciousness and situational awareness is unified and so are thier problem solving abilities...   this can be exlpoited and advantageous. 

2. NEVER FOCUS SOLELY ON A SINGLE PLACE OR PERSON....never posture and never quare up... you actions should be more akin to the tazmainian devil fromt he warner bros cartoons....   


Hey MJS... I call it a "meat shield" which I added to the list in my response above.  

Seasoned you are absolutely right...you need to attack with vicious, ferocious violent intent seeking to break and maim your way out.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 9, 2009)

Yes Bill a firearm would be great. Preferrably a 12 guage with 8 shells of 00 buck


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## Omar B (Jul 9, 2009)

I once read an article in Black Belt Mag on Ed Parker (a god among men, one of the true pioneers) and to add to what the Kenpo guys have always mentioned Ed stated that in a group attack the first person you take out must be done in as bloody and brutal a fashion possible to dissuade the other attackers.  Funny part is, in the picture that went with the article he was throwing a straight punch to the side of the attackers nose and the caption was somethign to the effect of "Won't put him down but the blood spray will scare the whole group."

The more I see of street fights the more disgusted I get.  It's not the wild west anymore boys, it's not about a man standing tall, it's about who's got the largest pack of wolves.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 9, 2009)

my reply from another thread on this subject from a while back...
---
To me, the most important thing in this situation is your mindset.  Remember: multiple attacker situations are DEADLY FORCE situations...treat them as such.

If you have to fight:

-ATTACK!!! don't wait for them to set you up, go on the offensive.

-Seek to "line up" your attackers so you only have to deal with one at a time.  

-Introduce a weapon at the earliest possible moment and use it until all threats have been neutralized.  

-Don't waste time with ineffective strikes or control/restraint techniques, be nasty...attack the eyes, throat, and knees in an effort to take the opponents out of the fight as quickly as possible.

-KEEP MOVING!  if you remain stationary, you're going to get "boxed in" and you will not like what happens next.

This is a good article on multiple attacker situations...definitely worth the read.
http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/index.php/fighting-multiple-opponents/


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 9, 2009)

There was nothing I was gonna say that Matt didn't, much better.

This is the street.

Stop thinking Frank Mir and start thinking Frank CASTLE.


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## Omar B (Jul 9, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> There was nothing I was gonna say that Matt didn't, much better.
> This is the street.
> Stop thinking Frank Mir and start thinking Frank CASTLE.



Gotta give you a hailz for working Frank Castle into the thread!


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## padre (Jul 9, 2009)

I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.

The last time I was in such a situation, a gang of teenagers was assaulting a few girls who were trying to get into their car.

I was wearing shower shoes, as I'd just stepped outside to have a smoke. I had to ditch those and go barefoot early on in the conflict in which I found myself engaged.

I have a deep, booming voice, and used it to 1) have someone call the police and 2) draw the thugs' attention away from the girls and onto me.

Although I *hoped* they would simply abandon their purposes, they simply came at me from six sides with an assortment of weapons. I could see chains and similar items in most hands, but one of them acted like he was reaching for a gun, so I went ahead and dashed him. Fortunately, it was a stone cold bluff.

The next kid caught me in the face with a chain, which was then mine, and I used to chase them down the road away from the girls while police closed in from all directions.

Final verdict: I got lucky.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 9, 2009)

padre said:


> I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.
> 
> The last time I was in such a situation, a gang of teenagers was assaulting a few girls who were trying to get into their car.
> 
> ...


 

Hell, that's okay, sometimes "lucky" is more important than "good".


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## Carol (Jul 9, 2009)

Use anything and everything to your advantage, including the environment and the element of surprise.

Once on a day off, I drove out to my instructor's place to sit in with his regular class.  At the end of class everyone paired up for a step-sparring drill...I got paired with my instructor.

I didn't do very well, and go to the point where I was on the ground, kind of on my side.  My instructor was straddling my upper body  It was my turn to move but I felt one move away from being done for.

Until I heard the creak of the door, and saw a glimpse of a brown uniform - it was the UPS guy.  Using him as a distraction, I cupped my hand drove a heelpalm in to my instructor's groin area.  He immediately yelped and backed away, saying I won the match.


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## bowser666 (Jul 9, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> geezer raises a very good point.  Gang attacks do seem to be on the rise.  I didn't used to think that much about it but in view of the trend it seems like I need to adjust my thinking.  I was in a situation just a couple of weeks ago where I thought I might end up needing these skills.  I was at a convenience store when 3 belligerent (and big) teenagers came into the store and started terrorizing the place.  They were completely out of control and clearly looking for trouble.  For some reason they kept looking at me.  Maybe it's because I was the biggest guy in the place.  The manager kicked them out of the store and called the police.  I made sure they were gone before I went back to my car but what if they had decided to start a melee in the parking lot?  I know they were harassing one of the female customers in the parking lot before they entered the store and I was already thinking about the possibility that I might have to intervene if they ganged up on someone.  Thankfully nothing happened but I've been thinking about it ever since.  Sadly, it seems there's a real bankruptcy of parenting skills in the US and the problem is getting worse all the time.  There are a lot of really great teenagers in this country but there are also a lot of them that have basically been left alone to raise themselves.  It's kind of like wild dogs.  Few things are more dangerous than a pack of wild dogs.  They're vicious and they have no fear of humans.  Same with teenagers that have no home training.  I'd hate to have to use my skills on somebody's kid but what choice would I have if I was surrounded by a pack of wild teenagers closing in for the kill?




Sadly every society has predators like that, its up to the nice guys to stand up for the people who can't do it for themselves. Its a tough spot to be in , since predator's have a tendency to have weapons. So if you help you can get hurt or killed, if you dont and something happens to the victim, you will feel just a bad for not helping. How these people become predators is where we need to attack !!!  Prevention will save alot of lives.

I now will get off my soapbox


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## Empty Hands (Jul 9, 2009)

padre said:


> I've had the displeasure of being in these situations too many times, and never had any particular training in dealing with them "properly" but just learned through hundreds of fights about some of what simply doesn't work.



Hundreds?


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## padre (Jul 9, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> Hundreds?



Yup, literally hundreds. Where I grew up, if you made it through a day without at least one solid beating, it was a very good day.

I had the crap beaten out of me routinely by individuals and groups until my late teens.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jul 9, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> Hundreds?


 
I do not see anything so hard to believe with that..depending on the person and the environment.
I have been in hundreds of non structured "street", for lack of a better word, fights as well... not counting any before the age of 18. 
11 seperate fights in one afternoon actually...on the most extreme day.
Some of us grew up with fighting being a way of life, not necessarily a way of survival, in my case more a case of adrenaline addiction...in other words...it was just too much fun!


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 9, 2009)

geezer said:


> What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers.


 
If they are big'uns, way bigger than me, then Glockdo is what they get. Disparency of force applies. And being Texas, you can stand your ground.

If no Glock is available, then pepper spray can really help even the odds. Spray as you back up and let them run into the pepper spray.



geezer said:


> And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?


 
I'd tell them I'm a Republican.

Actually, it depends on how and when they attacked. Was there any cars about with antenne? Any bottles? Garbage can lids? Rocks? Did they get to surround you first? Can you stack them up? Is one of them stupid enough to get in front of the rest?

If all I had was my fist and feet and had to duke it out with some weenie would-be-toughs I'd have a go at it. If, though, they were big and strong, well I'd try the 'I'm a Republican' thing again as I attacked first.

Still, I prefer the Glock for such situations. You will find that if you present a gun when such criminals aproach, they tend to get rubber feet and run.

Deaf


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## MA-Caver (Jul 9, 2009)

While unlike Padre I haven't been in _hundreds_ of fights, I've seen my share of unwanted confrontations. 
I do like Celtic Crippler's list and agree with it on a lot of points, just not in the original order given this (below) is my prioritized list of the same points. 


> (1) Take the first opportunity to escape to safety
> (2)  Make note of your environment..
> (3) Use your environment.
> (4) Remain calm and focused.
> ...


I would  however place RUN at the top, and I challenge ANYONE here to say it's cowardice. Taking note of the environment HAS to be before using it... how can you use it if you don't know what's there? 
Staying calm and focused best as you can on all the attackers, narrowing the field of focus to the nearest yet being aware of where the others are. 
Keeping yourself moving prevents them from getting a "target lock" on you, also keeping moving doesn't mean in a circle but for me it means getting closer and closer to an avenue of escape or into a place of (relative) safety (building or car -- so to blow the horn constantly to draw attention to it...thwarting the attackers plan to hit you hard and run without witnesses to ident them later)
Striking the closest attacker first and making it count. I also agree with the statement paraphrasing Ed Parker to do as much damage as possible for the "shock value" more than anything else. Yet that in of by itself CAN backfire as the attackers were just bent on just harassing you for kicks without really wanting to make contact (some still do) yet the sight/smell of blood would be like a cut finger in a pool of sharks. 
I'll paraphrase Bruce Lee who (Enter The Dragon) talked about how a "fight is like a small play, when my opponent expands I contract when they contract I expand and when the opportunity to hit comes, I do not for it does it all by itself..." 

Several other statements MJS and Black Lion had good points, and someone said that MA isn't always about the physical and I agree with that... sometimes the winner of a fight is the one who wants it the most and sometimes it's the guy who keeps a cool head and thinks his way through it (mind-no-mind). Lee (again) said that the mind is the strongest weapon any MA-ist has. 
Granted while Lee mentioned that it's a lot easier to "take a .45 and BANG!..." I have to disagree with the "gun is a lot easier... maybe it stops the fight for sure a lot faster... but it lands YOU in a lot more hot-water and a LOT harder to convince that you were defending yourself to a jury even if you were out-numbered. The video HELPED Mr Phillips avoid any mis-direction on who started who and proved the self-defense angle, but if there were NO video and a gun was used... how would ANYONE know that it wasn't something else that spurred it? Bad drug-deal? Drunken altercation? Etc. etc. 
Mr Phillips was lucky that no firearm was involved and that there was a video for LEOs to examine and determine the self-defense angle in Mr Phillips' favor. 
I also do not subscribe to the "kill or be killed" attitude unless it is without a doubt that it is life threatening. That is based on judgement and that is based on experience. Now if those guys are saying "...gonna kill you *expletitve/racial slur* then yeah it's life threatening -- in the eyes of the LAW. That is something that should always be considered. CYA even in a life threatening encounter. 



bowser666 said:


> Sadly every society has predators like that, its up to the nice guys to stand up for the people who can't do it for themselves. Its a tough spot to be in , since predator's have a tendency to have weapons. So if you help you can get hurt or killed, if you dont and something happens to the victim, you will feel just a bad for not helping. How these people become predators is where we need to attack !!!  Prevention will save alot of lives.
> 
> I now will get off my soapbox


 No, you stay right on that soap-box there bub... that sounded right on. Attacking the predators before they become predators. So many misspent youths out there needing the RIGHT kind of guidance and role models instead of Neo-Nazi wanna-bes and old timer gang-bangas fresh outta prison telling kids to be hard-core mo-fo's. 
Being an example that kids can admire and being a better example over the ones that the kids would admire if there aren't enough good people to assume the mantle of being good role-models.


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## padre (Jul 10, 2009)

I will say that I learned a few important things in the difficult youth to which I referred.

1) I learned how to take a beating and get on with my day.
2) I developed a lot of experience in preventing many of those beatings from happening in the future.
3) I learned respect for life and an unwavering resolve not to let this happen to people around me.
4) Over the years I've learned that most of the people who used to torment me wound up dead or in Parchman (state penitentiary) rather early on. Pattern violence does tend to catch up with people.
5) I learned that almost anything can be used as a weapon.
6) I learned that people's big brothers will often go beat the crap out of them for giving you a beating if you ask them to.
7) I also learned that most acts of violence do not turn grisly. Attackers usually do not set out to break your arm, stick a knife in you, or shoot you. When attacked, statistics are actually in your favor.
8) Oh, and I learned that if you whip out a knife (not in a gun fight) and say, "Well, all of you will get me, but one of you has to be first," the odds of actual violence dramatically reduce instantaneously.

I haven't been in an actual fight in well over a decade. When I reached adulthood and had some choice over where I was living, I made a point of living and working away from all that. And on those rare cases in which I've felt vulnerable since then, I've displayed readiness in a variety of ways.

I didn't decide to take up taekwondo for self-defense, but because I accepted a free lesson and found the instructors, school, and all the kicking to be very agreeable. heh


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## youngboot (Jul 10, 2009)

I just fisnhing posting Thread called worse case scenario I di't see this before i post. lol  Very good info.


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## geezer (Jul 10, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> I would  however place RUN at the top, and I challenge ANYONE here to say it's cowardice.



I agree. Maybe it's greater cowardice not to recognize the reality of of facing a gang attack and not being able to face up to your own physical limitations.

I remember being in a situation like that. I could have stood my ground and fought. I was armed with a concealed pair of nunchakus (this was in the 70's, OK?). Instead I high-tailed it across the parking lot and into a Pizza Hut. The guys that were after me had no intention of starting a brawl inside a restaurant with video surveillance and full of people. I hung out till a couple of my friends showed up. Then the three guys who were after me disappeared, seeing that the odds were more even. Result? Conflict avoided.

Now what would have happened if I had stood my ground and fought? I would have had to resort to using my illegal weapon. Either I would have seriously hurt a couple of the guys threatening me, and "won", got arrested, expelled from school a couple of weeks before graduation, and had to face charges and possible lawsuits, probably as an adult. Or, I would have got the crap beat out of me, and still probably gotten expelled from school for fighting... and, did I mention, for ditching classes that afternoon!

Or, to respond to Deaf's signature line, "e tan e epi tas". We don't live in Sparta, dude!


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 10, 2009)

Omar B said:


> I once read an article in Black Belt Mag on Ed Parker (a god among men, one of the true pioneers) and to add to what the Kenpo guys have always mentioned Ed stated that in a group attack the first person you take out must be done in as bloody and brutal a fashion possible to dissuade the other attackers. Funny part is, in the picture that went with the article he was throwing a straight punch to the side of the attackers nose and the caption was somethign to the effect of "Won't put him down but the blood spray will scare the whole group."
> 
> The more I see of street fights the more disgusted I get. It's not the wild west anymore boys, it's not about a man standing tall, it's about who's got the largest pack of wolves.


 
Us kenpo folks have been accused of being dirty on more than one occasion. We're definately a sick bunch. LOL 

There's never been anything pretty about a street fight. 



KenpoTex said:


> Remember: multiple attacker situations are DEADLY FORCE situations...treat them as such.


 
Abso-freaking-lutely! Never forget that.


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## Omar B (Jul 10, 2009)

Crippler -  I've got no problem with fighting dirty man, Kenpo always intrigued me for that reason.  My mantra is "Every day in every way be more like Frank Castle."

As for this thread.  It's so odd that I've got a story to connect with it now.  My brother in law got attacked and beaten pretty badly this morning on his way to work.  Broke his nose, busted up his face, kicked him in the gut and back when he was down (as they are wont to do).  

He's a construction worker so he leaves for work early and he stayed over his mother's house last night because they had people over he wanted to visit with.  Walking to the train station at 4:00 AM he was attacked by these 5 guys, they musta thought he had money.  Dude, only had his back with his tools and his Metrocard to get on the train.   Those are all the details I've gotten thus far from my sister.


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## searcher (Jul 10, 2009)

I have not read the entire thread, so if my "strategy" is mentioned I appologize.

For myself, if it is risk of death or permenent bodily harm, I use my firearm.    Plain and not very simple.   There are reasons I carry and this is one of them.     I know many will have remarks and such, but I am not going to maimed or killed.    End of story.

I will not be happy about having to do it, but I will do it.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 10, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Crippler - I've got no problem with fighting dirty man, Kenpo always intrigued me for that reason. My mantra is "Every day in every way be more like Frank Castle."
> 
> As for this thread. It's so odd that I've got a story to connect with it now. My brother in law got attacked and beaten pretty badly this morning on his way to work. Broke his nose, busted up his face, kicked him in the gut and back when he was down (as they are wont to do).
> 
> He's a construction worker so he leaves for work early and he stayed over his mother's house last night because they had people over he wanted to visit with. Walking to the train station at 4:00 AM he was attacked by these 5 guys, they musta thought he had money. Dude, only had his back with his tools and his Metrocard to get on the train. Those are all the details I've gotten thus far from my sister.


 
Love the Punisher. 

Sorry to hear about your brother in law. I hope he has no major injuries and recovers well. 



searcher said:


> I have not read the entire thread, so if my "strategy" is mentioned I appologize.
> 
> For myself, if it is risk of death or permenent bodily harm, I use my firearm. Plain and not very simple. There are reasons I carry and this is one of them. I know many will have remarks and such, but I am not going to maimed or killed. End of story.
> 
> I will not be happy about having to do it, but I will do it.


 
If I'm carrying then no doubt, I'll draw down on multiple attackers in a heart beat. I think we're speaking more to some simple rules or things you can do when you don't have a firearm handy.


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## Omar B (Jul 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Love the Punisher.
> Sorry to hear about your brother in law. I hope he has no major injuries and recovers well.



Thanks man.  Thing with Larry is, even when He and my sister shared the house with me he would never want to go out and train.  He's got no MA training at all, while I've got 2 BBs and my sister has 1.  Even in my whole year of Bujinkan obsession he wouldn't even come into the back yard.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 10, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Thanks man.  Thing with Larry is, even when He and my sister shared the house with me he would never want to go out and train.  He's got no MA training at all, while I've got 2 BBs and my sister has 1.  Even in my whole year of Bujinkan obsession he wouldn't even come into the back yard.



That might change now...


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## MA-Caver (Jul 10, 2009)

padre said:


> I will say that I learned a few important things in the difficult youth to which I referred.
> 
> I haven't been in an actual fight in well over a decade. When I reached adulthood and had some choice over where I was living, I made a point of living and working away from all that. And on those rare cases in which I've felt vulnerable since then, I've displayed readiness in a variety of ways.
> 
> I didn't decide to take up taekwondo for self-defense, but because I accepted a free lesson and found the instructors, school, and all the kicking to be very agreeable. heh





> 1) I learned how to take a beating and get on with my day.


I learned how to take a beating and give it back in spades or at least have those limp away from me or holding a limb. This later translated to my not taking any crap off of nobody... probably why I haven't kept a job for long periods of time... but I'm getting better. 


> 2) I developed a lot of experience in preventing many of those beatings from happening in the future.


 Aye, that I have too. Most of the fights that I COULD'VE been in I've managed to "bugs bunny" my outta them (fast double talking). Then beating a hasty. 


> 3) I learned respect for life and an unwavering resolve not to let this happen to people around me.


 I too despise anyone standing around watching someone else get theirs when they didn't deserve it. I haven't gotten to play Knight or Saint in a long time but I've still the resolve to step in where I see things not fair or manly. 


> 4) Over the years I've learned that most of the people who used to torment me wound up dead or in Parchman (state penitentiary) rather early on. Pattern violence does tend to catch up with people.


 I've grown up with my own tormentors and to this date I've no idea whats happened to them. I got on with my own life and forgotten (or rather) left behind all those days getting the crap beaten out of me between classes in the halls or bathrooms or wherever I got caught. I've learned to let it go... but took the lessons learned with me. 


> 5) I learned that almost anything can be used as a weapon.


 This is true, but I've had to learn from a fellow MA-ist. 


> 6) I learned that people's big brothers will often go beat the crap out of them for giving you a beating if you ask them to.


 I've never had to ask my older brother, who never lost a fight to exact vengeance in my name, but he did... usually waiting once for two years before the guy that beaten me made the mistake of messing with my brother and got his clocks cleaned ... well. The last few punches and kicks were for me, as in "hey remember my brother??" 


> 7) I also learned that most acts of violence do not turn grisly. Attackers usually do not set out to break your arm, stick a knife in you, or shoot you. When attacked, statistics are actually in your favor.


 This is also true in my experience, yet still do you want to take that 1% chance? 


> 8) Oh, and I learned that if you whip out a knife (not in a gun fight) and say, "Well, all of you will get me, but one of you has to be first," the odds of actual violence dramatically reduce instantaneously.


 Sometimes and maybe back in the day. Now-a-days they're more... violence escalation proned than before. Whipping out a knife may get you in worse when all they wanted to do was just whup your *** but over the last few years it's "OH! NOW you go and pull a knife on me huh boah? Welllll c'mon then! " and there's a scary smile on their faces. 
So you'd better be ready to face manslaughter charges.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Us kenpo folks have been accused of being dirty on more than one occasion. We're definitely a sick bunch. LOL


 I've been a uke for a EPAK-ist for a couple of years and I don't see *any thing* sick about the techs used... I see them as effective. 


celtic_crippler said:


> There's never been anything pretty about a street fight.


 Amen.


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## SensibleManiac (Jul 10, 2009)

I would say be very aware of your environment, try to *smell* danger as much as possible and get out as quick as possible.

You can never know 100% what youre up against so get out as soon as you can.


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## padre (Jul 10, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Sometimes and maybe back in the day. Now-a-days they're more... violence escalation proned than before. Whipping out a knife may get you in worse when all they wanted to do was just whup your *** but over the last few years it's "OH! NOW you go and pull a knife on me huh boah? Welllll c'mon then! " and there's a scary smile on their faces.
> So you'd better be ready to face manslaughter charges.



Yeah, and in the cases I was thinking of, they already had weapons in hand. I can only recall one time I produced a weapon against an unarmed assailant, and that guy had me up off the ground by my throat bouncing the back of my head against a brick wall. At that moment, I felt ready to face the charges.

And when I mentioned older brothers, I meant *their* older brothers. heh

"Hey, Dude. Your kid brother just kicked the s*** out of me."


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## searcher (Jul 10, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> If I'm carrying then no doubt, I'll draw down on multiple attackers in a heart beat. I think we're speaking more to some simple rules or things you can do when you don't have a firearm handy.


 


I understand.    That is why I carry 99% of the time.     If I cannot carry, it is not very far away.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> "...over the last few years it's "OH! NOW you go and pull a knife on me huh boah? Welllll c'mon then! " and there's a scary smile on their faces.
> So you'd better be ready to face *manslaughter charges*.



Yeah, that's _very true_. There's well known case that's winding through the appeals process in the courts here in Arizona. An older guy, a retired teacher, was hiking when he was set upon by a pack of dogs. He pulled his gun and shot a "warning shot", when the dog's owner suddenly appeared... a mentally disturbed homeless guy living out of his car with his illegally unleashed dogs. He was a big, scarey looking guy, and it seems he charged the old dude screaming like a maniac, and ignoring commands to stop and stay back. So the old teacher shot the aggressor and killed him. But, there were no witnesses.

 When it went to trial, some of the testimony about similar violent outbursts in the attacker's past weren't admitted as testimony. He was portrayed as a big, gentle bear of a guy, who loved his dogs but had some mental problems (cue the violins). On the other hand, the teacher's _interest in guns_ and belief in the right to self defense was carefully scrutinized. End result, after a couple of years of investigations and subsequent trial, this trigger happy "gun nut" was sentenced to something like fifteen years in the pen. Since he's old already, that could be a life sentence. 

Last thing I saw about it, a couple of weeks back in the local paper, the guy had been granted an appeal and will be able to go back to court and try to reverse the decision. Sounds like fun, eh? So for those of you who carry, of especially if you like _knives_ (the assassin's weapon) I suggest you try avoidance, de-escalation, and finally, _escaping _before you resort to using a weapon.


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## seasoned (Jul 11, 2009)

geezer said:


> Yeah, that's _very true_. There's well known case that's winding through the appeals process in the courts here in Arizona. An older guy, a retired teacher, was hiking when he was set upon by a pack of dogs. He pulled his gun and shot a "warning shot", when the dog's owner suddenly appeared... a mentally disturbed homeless guy living out of his car with his illegally unleashed dogs. He was a big, scarey looking guy, and it seems he charged the old dude screaming like a maniac, and ignoring commands to stop and stay back. So the old teacher shot the aggressor and killed him. But, there were no witnesses.
> 
> When it went to trial, some of the testimony about similar violent outbursts in the attacker's past weren't admitted as testimony. He was portrayed as a big, gentle bear of a guy, who loved his dogs but had some mental problems (cue the violins). On the other hand, the teacher's _interest in guns_ and belief in the right to self defense was carefully scrutinized. End result, after a couple of years of investigations and subsequent trial, this trigger happy "gun nut" was sentenced to something like fifteen years in the pen. Since he's old already, that could be a life sentence.
> 
> Last thing I saw about it, a couple of weeks back in the local paper, the guy had been granted an appeal and will be able to go back to court and try to reverse the decision. Sounds like fun, eh? So for those of you who carry, of especially if you like _knives_ (the assassin's weapon) I suggest you try avoidance, de-escalation, and finally, _escaping _before you resort to using a weapon.


A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2009)

seasoned said:


> A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.


Actually, it's not that simple.

A "big scary guy" running at me might not justify lethal force; it would depend on how big, why he was scary, and my condition at the moment (injuries, who is with me, etc.).

But that same "big scary guy" running at my wife or mother?  Entirely different situation, and they may well be justified in lethal force.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 11, 2009)

3 or more attackers and I say lethal force is justified. Opinions will vary.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, it's not that simple.
> 
> A "big scary guy" running at me might not justify lethal force; it would depend on how big, why he was scary, and my condition at the moment (injuries, who is with me, etc.).
> 
> But that same "big scary guy" running at my wife or mother? Entirely different situation, and they may well be justified in lethal force.


 
This was my thought as well. 

If it was a she and she was 5' and 100 lbs if that and I am 6'3" and 300 lbs, then I could hurt her seriously just falling on her. 

If you are injured and unable to get away?

If you are afraid that the dogs are trained and this is a coordinated attack? 

Lots of things can trigger what the reasonable man would fear for their life. 

The issue is can you prove it or argue it in a court of law.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 11, 2009)

It's less to do with what you *did* as it is to do with what you *say* and what they can *prove*.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2009)

geezer said:


> Down in "The Study", Bill Mattocks started a thread on a story about a racist attack in Canada. Three white toughs jumped a black man, Mr. Jay Phillips in a parking lot. Mr. Phillips put up a pretty good fight, although at one point it went to the ground and things looked pretty bad for him. Like everyone says, _the ground game doesn't work against multiple attackers_. Fortunately, he made it back to his feet and soon the three punks decided they'd had enough, piled back into their pickup and took off.
> 
> Anyway, after thinking about this for awhile, I thought it might be a good topic to revisit here. I teach high school and one thing I hear from the kids I work with is that ganging up on people to beat the crap out of them is getting so common that it's becoming the norm these days. A lot of kids don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, some feel that going into a "fair fight", one against one, is downright stupid. Well if that's becoming the social norm, or the reality for our times, maybe it deserves a lot more attention. What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers. And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?


 
We address it in class. We even have them demonstrate on some higher ranked tests. 

Look to limit the approaches of the bad guys. Line up one or two and try to keep them from surrounding you. 

I know I have in the past handled it in multiple ways all depending upon the situation. From taking one person out fast and hard and letting ever one see what they were facing, to just telling them I was going to take the first person out fast and hard, describing in detail the pain they woudl be facing. And of course stuff inbetween the two above examples.


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## seasoned (Jul 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, it's not that simple.
> 
> A "big scary guy" running at me might not justify lethal force; it would depend on how big, why he was scary, and my condition at the moment (injuries, who is with me, etc.).
> 
> But that same "big scary guy" running at my wife or mother? Entirely different situation, and they may well be justified in lethal force.


I would say that, that would depend on what state you live in, and how much money you have, and how good your lawyer is. In NYS you had better have a very good reason, before you draw on someone, let alone kill them.


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## blackxpress (Jul 11, 2009)

Just curious.  A big scary looking guy runs at a police officer while screaming like a maniac.  Said big scary looking guy ignores the officer's commands to stop so the officer shoots him.  Will that be considered justified or not?


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## padre (Jul 11, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> Just curious.  A big scary looking guy runs at a police officer while screaming like a maniac.  Said big scary looking guy ignores the officer's commands to stop so the officer shoots him.  Will that be considered justified or not?



Any place in North America that I can think of, the incident would warrant investigation. With luck, the officer's vehicle would have sufficient AV recording of all the relevant details to make a more sure determination.

I live in MS, and even non-LEO citizens have a fairly wide range of legally-recognized rights to employ lethal force against scary people running at us. But whether private citizen or badged official, you can expect there to be investigations and tremendous inconvenience.

I hope never to have to use lethal force against anybody under any circumstance, but if I do, I hope at least the whole thing is fully recorded in a legally-admissible manner.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> Just curious.  A big scary looking guy runs at a police officer while screaming like a maniac.  Said big scary looking guy ignores the officer's commands to stop so the officer shoots him.  Will that be considered justified or not?





padre said:


> Any place in North America that I can think of, the incident would warrant investigation. With luck, the officer's vehicle would have sufficient AV recording of all the relevant details to make a more sure determination.
> 
> I live in MS, and even non-LEO citizens have a fairly wide range of legally-recognized rights to employ lethal force against scary people running at us. But whether private citizen or badged official, you can expect there to be investigations and tremendous inconvenience.
> 
> I hope never to have to use lethal force against anybody under any circumstance, but if I do, I hope at least the whole thing is fully recorded in a legally-admissible manner.



Lots of agencies still don't have in-car cameras.  Even then, or with any camera system, it's only a single point of view, and it may not be clear.  Look at some of the discussions here about controversial fights on TV -- and they often have a couple of camera angles!  Or look at the LA cop who kicked the suspect in the head a few weeks ago, caught by a TV camera in the sky.  I still don't know whether he was justified or not...

Reality?  You charge me, ignore my commands, and I'm using force.  It may be my gun, or it may be empty hands, or anything in-between.  It just depends on the exact circumstances as well as what's already in my hand.  I'm clearing a house, my gun's out... and you stand a good chance of me shooting you if you ignore my commands.  It's not certain; I can holster up and go hands on... but the simple fact is that the gun is out.  If I'm walking down a street, and suddenly confronted?  I'm probably going to end up meeting that with empty hands at least initially; everything else is stowed away on my belt.

Would I be justified?  Well, I'm going to have to explain what I did and why.  It'll certainly be an investigation.  In my area, unless I  screwed up -- I probably won't be criminally charged.  Whether I'll keep my job is a different question.  And it's guaranteed that I'll be sued.


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## padre (Jul 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Would I be justified?  Well, I'm going to have to explain what I did and why.  It'll certainly be an investigation.  In my area, unless I  screwed up -- I probably won't be criminally charged.  Whether I'll keep my job is a different question.  And it's guaranteed that I'll be sued.



Yup. "Justified" isn't necessarily a simple matter. The officer on the beat has to make a judgment call and then account for actions taken in a given situation afterward.

That's where training, training, training comes in handy, as well as some vetting of individuals who seek careers in law enforcement.

Cultures vary. In my state, any individual who wishes to carry a firearm or obtain a concealed carry permit is legally able to do so within certain restrictions (felony conviction, etc.). The operating assumption is that adults are capable of owning and using firearms.

When I was 15, I was once in the wrong place at the wrong time in the wrong company and found the barrel of a LEO's revolver pointed at me in the line of duty. But I didn't fear for one second that he had any intention of firing that weapon at me.

I was unarmed, but if I'd dashed at him at that moment, I can easily enough imagine that he would've discharged the weapon into me in self-defense. Neither of us would've considered that a good day.

But he and I were both in our right minds, I was capable of taking direction and answering questions, and we never saw each other again.


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2009)

seasoned said:


> A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.


 
One person, no, I agree, lethal force shouldn't be the first option.  A group of people...well, seeing that they just upped the odds against me, that may be a different story.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2009)

seasoned said:


> A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.



I don't know, Seasoned.  Imagine you are not a martial artist, a LEO or anything of the kind. Instead imagine that your're a small, sixty-something, retired school teacher alone on a remote hiking trail, and you are suddenly attacked by a pack of three ferocious dogs followed by a big, scary, and absolutely enraged, screaming man. In spite of your warnings and  your gun, he and his dogs keep on coming. You are absolutely in fear for your life. And there is no place to run, no place to hide.

If, (and that's a big IF, I know) but again... If the defendant's story is true, and that IS exactly what happened, you're telling me that he didn't have a right to defend himself? Please explain.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2009)

MJS said:


> One person, no, I agree, lethal force shouldn't be the first option.  A group of people...well, seeing that they just upped the odds against me, that may be a different story.


Again -- it's just not that easy.

"Big scary guy" vs. BJ Penn?  BJ would probably have a hard time justifying resorting to lethal force.

"Big scary guy" vs. me?  Depends.  Am I sick, injured, already exhausted by a foot pursuit?  

"Big scary guy" vs. this guy 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





?  Probably.

The justification for the use of lethal force is that you reasonably were in fear of imminent grievous bodily harm or death.  Part of the determination of the reasonableness will consider any size/age/physical disparities between the two people.

I'm not familiar enough with the case *geezer *described to categorically state it was or was not reasonable.  I will note that, unless you're on the high seas facing pirates or something similar, a "warning shot" is not a good idea, and a waste of a bullet that you could put where it'll do some good.


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Again -- it's just not that easy.
> 
> "Big scary guy" vs. BJ Penn? BJ would probably have a hard time justifying resorting to lethal force.
> 
> ...


 
I wouldn't put BJ, despite his UFC career, in some superman category, no more than I'd put a martial artist, for the simple fact that training, while it should give us an edge, does not make us supermen.  I'd also think that if this went to court, the judge is going to look at the MAist in a different light, compared to some unskilled average Joe citizen getting attacked.  The belief is that the MAist, should possess the skills to determine how much/little injury they inflict.  

In any case, regardless of whether we're talking about the average Joe or the MAist, both can still be in fear of their lives, therefore, going by your def. of lethal force, be justified to use it.  Evn moreso, IMO, due to the fact that we're grossly outnumbered and I'd think the chances of injury to us are greater, vs if we were fighting 1 person.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2009)

MJS said:


> I wouldn't put BJ, despite his UFC career, in some superman category, no more than I'd put a martial artist, for the simple fact that training, while it should give us an edge, does not make us supermen.  I'd also think that if this went to court, the judge is going to look at the MAist in a different light, compared to some unskilled average Joe citizen getting attacked.  The belief is that the MAist, should possess the skills to determine how much/little injury they inflict.
> 
> In any case, regardless of whether we're talking about the average Joe or the MAist, both can still be in fear of their lives, therefore, going by your def. of lethal force, be justified to use it.  Evn moreso, IMO, due to the fact that we're grossly outnumbered and I'd think the chances of injury to us are greater, vs if we were fighting 1 person.


I wasn't intending to set BJ Penn aside as some sort of superman.  He's just in the top ranks of the lightweight divisions; I specifically wanted a smaller person who's a top combative athlete.  They're going to be less able to justify using greater force against an unarmed person merely because the guy's bigger.  He'd be justified, again, if he were in imminent fear of serious bodily harm or death.

Me?  I'm, as some local DJs would say, a "person of larger carriage."  I'm a big guy... but I definitely could stand to lose a good bit of weight, too.  Doesn't mean I'm not fit, though...  But, like I said, I could be injured, I could have just run a foot race, lots of things can effect my situation.

The Six Flags guy?  Picked him as an easy, fun example of an older person.  Again, I can think of some examples that would be a whole different situation; see Bob's Masters gallery for a few of them!

Oh... and to return to the original topic:  Multiple attackers in a parking lot get shot as soon as I can create enough distance to draw and engage them.  If for some reason I can't shoot them, there are tactics like stacking opponents, using obstacles, and the like to improve my chances -- but really, if I have to deal with them while unarmed, I'm trying to get out of there as fast as possible.


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## MBatcho1 (Jul 13, 2009)

I personally think it was handled very well. 

As for the whole ganging up on people I'm not sure. 

Kids now a days think and do what they want. 

Me and my friends are firm believers in the "fair fight" mentality. If you are fighting someone and their friend jumps in then someone can intervene. 

Other than that fight one on one and call it a day. 

I have a friend that will go and start a fight and then run to us for help. 

We look at him and pretty much tell him good luck. If he is that stupid to start a fight then he should deal with it himself. I dont team up someone because I have a stupid friends. 

Anyway sorry for the rant. I just think that it is unfair to get beat up by multiple people if it is a one on one deal. 

My advice to the kids would be to fight fair or dont fight at all. If you have a problem then deal with it like a man and quick being a bunch of.........well you know whats.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 13, 2009)

You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) =  justified lethal force.   Its just that easy.   If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat...  plain and simple.   "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and  anything further should go through my attorney"....    I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue...  you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....    

As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of...     the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....


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## MJS (Jul 13, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I wasn't intending to set BJ Penn aside as some sort of superman. He's just in the top ranks of the lightweight divisions; I specifically wanted a smaller person who's a top combative athlete. They're going to be less able to justify using greater force against an unarmed person merely because the guy's bigger. He'd be justified, again, if he were in imminent fear of serious bodily harm or death.
> 
> Me? I'm, as some local DJs would say, a "person of larger carriage." I'm a big guy... but I definitely could stand to lose a good bit of weight, too. Doesn't mean I'm not fit, though... But, like I said, I could be injured, I could have just run a foot race, lots of things can effect my situation.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, thanks for the clarification.  On the other hand, I'd think that anyone, regardless of size, is going to use the "I was in fear of serious harm and bodily injury" claim, when the situation is said and done.


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## MJS (Jul 13, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) = justified lethal force. Its just that easy. If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat... plain and simple. "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and anything further should go through my attorney".... I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue... you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....
> 
> As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of... the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....


 
QFT!!  Can't disagree with this!


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## jks9199 (Jul 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Ok, thanks for the clarification.  On the other hand, I'd think that anyone, regardless of size, is going to use the "I was in fear of serious harm and bodily injury" claim, when the situation is said and done.


Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear *reasonable*.  The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable.  Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old.  Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.


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## seasoned (Jul 13, 2009)

seasoned said:


> A big scary guy running at you, "unarmed", is no cause for lethal force. Now if he has a knife in his hand, that is another story. This guy with the gun gives everyone with a legal permit, a bad rap. It all boils down to training, and knowing when lethal force is appropriate.


 


seasoned said:


> I would say that, that would depend on what *state you live in*, and *how much money you have*, and *how good your lawyer is*. *In NYS you had better have a very good reason, before you draw on someone, let alone kill them*.


The law is somewhat precise, until you get to court. 



geezer said:


> I don't know, Seasoned. Imagine you are not a martial artist, a LEO or anything of the kind. Instead imagine that your're a small, sixty-something, retired school teacher alone on a remote hiking trail, and you are suddenly attacked by a pack of three ferocious dogs followed by a big, scary, and absolutely keep on coming. You are absolutely in fear for your life. And there is no place to run, no place to hide.
> 
> If, (and that's a big IF, I know) but again... If the defendant's story is true, and that IS exactly what happened, you're teenraged, screaming man. In spite of your warnings and your gun, he and his dogs lling me that he didn't have a right to defend himself? Please explain.


Everyone has the right to defend themselves, it is the dead part that could cause a problem.


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## geezer (Jul 13, 2009)

seasoned said:


> The law is somewhat precise, until you get to court...Everyone has the right to defend themselves, it is the *dead* part that could cause a problem.



Very true. Which is one good thing about martial arts /self defense training. It gives you more options. Options such as avoidance, de-escalation, and escaping from bad situations, as well as non-lethal responses to an attack. That's why I brought up the case of the old guy who just depended on his gun. He had only one option, and as a result his life is totally messed up!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 14, 2009)

geezer said:


> Down in "The Study", Bill Mattocks started a thread on a story about a racist attack in Canada. Three white toughs jumped a black man, Mr. Jay Phillips in a parking lot. Mr. Phillips put up a pretty good fight, although at one point it went to the ground and things looked pretty bad for him. Like everyone says, _the ground game doesn't work against multiple attackers_. Fortunately, he made it back to his feet and soon the three punks decided they'd had enough, piled back into their pickup and took off.
> 
> Anyway, after thinking about this for awhile, I thought it might be a good topic to revisit here. I teach high school and one thing I hear from the kids I work with is that ganging up on people to beat the crap out of them is getting so common that it's becoming the norm these days. A lot of kids don't see anything wrong with it. In fact, some feel that going into a "fair fight", one against one, is downright stupid. Well if that's becoming the social norm, or the reality for our times, maybe it deserves a lot more attention. What strategies do you apply in dealing with multiple attackers. And if you were Mr. Phillips in that parking lot, how would you have handled the situation?



The three elements required for a smaller force to defeat a larger force are SPEED, SURPRISE and VIOLENCE OF ACTION!

Also, as you point out in the next post, group attacks are often like wolf packs.......which usually have an Alpha as a leader.......that should always be the initial target of the SPEED, SURPRISE and VIOLENCE OF ACTION!  Destroy the leader IMMEDIATELY, and the betas may scatter..........i've not only seen it happen, i've personally confronted a large group, and kept them off guard by aggressively assaulting the 'MOUTH'......... 




FYI in the Hyena world it is the FEMALE who is dominant Alpha of the group.......whether the lion knew she was the strength of the group or just luck of the draw is anyone's guess........but attacking her destroyed group cohesion.

At the end of the day, there really IS such a thing as 'Imposing your Will'........even on aggressive groups.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 14, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear *reasonable*.  The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable.  Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old.  Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.



And that 'reasonable man' changes from location to location.........the reasonable 'man' in SoCal isn't the same as the 'reasonable man' in west Texas or rural Missouri.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 14, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You + "multiple attackers"(more than one) =  justified lethal force.   Its just that easy.   If more than one man surrounds me and my spidey sense tells me I am in for it... I am drawing and getting some meat...  plain and simple.   "If" I am there to give an after-report... "they surrounded me and said they were going to kill me and I believed them".... "I am too shaken up to discuss this right now and  anything further should go through my attorney"....    I for one am not the guy whos sticks around to wait for the men in blue...  you neve know what neighborhood you are in and who else might want some becuase of what just happened.... gangs being a prime example....
> 
> As a california resident, even here we can justify lethal force if there is mor than one attacker pretty much every time.... since there are many cases of people being jumped and killed to go off of...     the key word is attacker... not 3 drunks swarming to argue about baseball or 3 bums swarming for a buck and a smoke....



Multiple attackers definitely ups the ante.........and some Prostituting attorney may attack the idea that getting your head kicked in by 5 guys doesn't quite constitute 'Lethal force' (If your particular attack situation involves the wrong demographic mix for his constituents) but that same moron would also charge 5 guys who did the same to some acquaintance of HIS with FELONY AGGRAVATED ASSAULT!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 14, 2009)

Anyone remember this guy? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8_z...D1210A22&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=74

or this guy


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## MJS (Jul 14, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Yes, but the issue isn't did you fear; it's was the fear *reasonable*. The fear has to make sense to the mythical "reasonable man" or the use of force isn't justifiable. Randy Couture would have a heck of a time convincing a jury that he reasonably feared for his life against an unarmed, underweight 12 year old. Give that 12 year old a pistol... and the game is changed.


 
But as it was said in another post, its going to vary from loc. to loc. and person to person.  I may not feel as much fear as my wife and viceversa.  But of course, I would imagine that if this was a situation in which you were taken to court, the police were called, etc., then the common sense thing to say would be that you were in fear, no matter if you were or were not.


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## K831 (Jul 15, 2009)

A lot of good suggestions and observations posted in this thread. I have far from read the entire thing, but wanted to put a couple of thoughts down based on my own experiences, maybe give some things to think about, like those who have posted have done for me. If these have already been posted, then sorry....

My family teases me for this, but I pay close attention to what I wear in public. Even if I am going to get gas or a quick wally world trip:

- I do not wear sandals. They are terrible to move in, you will end up              barefoot and that is no good. 

- I do not wear anything around my neck. Example; my wife and I went to   a big Expo in phoenix and the passes they gave when you bought tickets   came on a lanyard to go around you neck. It went in my pocket. To         easy for one or more attackers to get hold of. If I am driving home from a formal work meeting/event/church the tie comes off as soon as I step outside. 

- If I cant fight the way I train because of my clothing, I don't wear it. If I cant use what I am learning in normal clothes, I don't train it. 

- Urgency and speed of action is key. I have had several "group" altercations in my life and I have learned that if the attack seems imminent, than I should get a shot off first, without any reservation. I know this has been said, but I have personally seen that if you can make the first guy go down hard and ugly, it will often take the wind out of the sails of the other guys. 

- If you can, signal out the leader, most often the mouthy one, and put him down hard, it will increase the effect. 

Attack first, and do it if you can before they get any positional advantage. Here is a personal example I can relate to illustrate this:

I got out of my car in a parking lot at a grocery store late, trying to get in and get something home for dinner since my wife and I would both be getting home late from work. Just as I was closing my car door another car screeched in about 5 feet away. there were 4 guys in a car, windows rolled down threatening and swearing at me. The driver pushed his door open and started getting out. I bolted across the distance and did a running front kick into his driver door, smashing it into his body as he was halfway out. This was pretty damaging to him physically, but I stepped to the side and gave him another front kick to the face as he slumped in the seat. This elicited both a degree of shock and anger from the rest. He appeared incapacitated so I moved around to the other side of the car since the other front seat passenger was nearly out. By the time I got there he was out, but pretty up against the car. As this was a two door car I stopped him there, making it difficult for the other two to get out. I immediately attacked him. He swung a time or two, but after a stiff jab to the nose landed, he tried to withdraw into the car covering up with his arms. My car was left unlocked, so with the other two stunned and stuck in the back of the car, I jumped in my car and left. 


Now, I acted aggressively, because that's my nature, because it had worked in the past, and because altercations aren't unfamiliar so much of the "first time hesitancy" is gone. The fact that I attacked first and did it before there were four guys out of the car helped a lot, since on my best day i can't beat 4 guys, and I didn't have a weapon that day. 

Maybe I could have jumped back in my car immediately and drove off, but I felt the driver may have been able to keep me from getting in while the others surrounded.

Upon reflection afterward, the other potential serious issue with this situation is that I could have been shot at from a gun I couldn't see within the vehicle. Of course, I may have ended up shot point blank if they had gotten out of the car. 

I have had some other experiences with multiple attackers, but I think this example illustrates the point. 

Just some thoughts.

And, since some have made decent movie mentions already, I'll quote Josey Wales;

"Now remember, if things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."


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## blackxpress (Jul 15, 2009)

This is a very important discussion for us to be having.  Here's another example why from this morning's Tennessean newspaper:

http://www.tennessean.com/article/2...d+with+attack+on++Daily+News+Journal++carrier

Here's a guy just minding his own business, doing his job, and he gets jumped by three out of control teenagers and his kids have to witness him being beaten nearly to death.


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## CoryKS (Jul 15, 2009)

From blackxpress's article:



> "Apparently, the juveniles witnessed the driver throw something into their yard, which turned out to be the newspaper. However, the juveniles didn't know what the driver threw, and so they chased him down" and attacked him, Evans said.


 
*facepalm*


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## K831 (Jul 15, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> This is a very important discussion for us to be having.  Here's another example why from this morning's Tennessean newspaper:
> 
> http://www.tennessean.com/article/2...d+with+attack+on++Daily+News+Journal++carrier
> 
> Here's a guy just minding his own business, doing his job, and he gets jumped by three out of control teenagers and his kids have to witness him being beaten nearly to death.



Andy many of our "leaders" say we have no need to arm ourselves, my magazine holds too many, my knife is too long or opens to fast...


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## BLACK LION (Jul 15, 2009)

I would like to place a wager that there were onlookers who stood in awe and did nothing.


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## blackxpress (Jul 15, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I would like to place a wager that there were onlookers who stood in awe and did nothing.



It was 5 a.m. so I doubt if there many onlookers, if any.  Which makes the story sound kind of fishy actually.  Why weren't these 3 geniuses still in bed at that time of the morning?  They just happened to be up, hanging out together at 5 a.m. and noticed somebody throw something in the yard?  Makes me wonder if they weren't laying for the guy.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 15, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> It was 5 a.m. so I doubt if there many onlookers, if any. Which makes the story sound kind of fishy actually. Why weren't these 3 geniuses still in bed at that time of the morning? They just happened to be up, hanging out together at 5 a.m. and noticed somebody throw something in the yard? Makes me wonder if they weren't laying for the guy.


 
More likely they'd been up all night partying.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 15, 2009)

Or... up for a few days or weeks REALLY partying!!!


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## Guardian (Jul 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Out of all the arts I've studied over the years, kenpo is the only one that actually has a curriculum for dealing with multiple attackers.
> 
> Some things I've learned from that are:
> (1) Strike the closest attacker first and make it count. For instance a hard sword hand to the throat or a devastating kick to the knee...something that is likely to take them out of the mix quickly.
> ...


 

This about says it all for me also.  Evade, strike and escape, it's a simple strategy, but effective.  You can always CCP and carry.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 16, 2009)

If fleeing isn't an option, then you had BETTER be EXTREMELY AGGRESSIVE!  Whether your intent is to kill every one of your attackers, their families, their neighbors and burn their houses down, they probably should BELIEVE that's your intent! (A little nod to 'Unforgiven' there. ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccqdEhytKOk&feature=related


I once saw one lone biker cower an entire crowd with violence and belligerent bravado.  He sold the idea to them that he was not only crazy, but probably homicidal, and would certainly slaughter any man present that raised a hand against him, be it today, or sometime in the near future.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 16, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> It was 5 a.m. so I doubt if there many onlookers, if any.  Which makes the story sound kind of fishy actually.  Why weren't these 3 geniuses still in bed at that time of the morning?  They just happened to be up, hanging out together at 5 a.m. and noticed somebody throw something in the yard?  Makes me wonder if they weren't laying for the guy.



They probably didn't realize that the paper delivery guy carries no CASH!


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## K831 (Jul 16, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> They probably didn't realize that the paper delivery guy carries no CASH!



Maybe.... I really think a lot of this is violence for violence sake. People are hurting, lonely, angry and messed up on drugs and alcohol and they just want to break or hurt something. If your standing there, your it.


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## blackxpress (Jul 16, 2009)

K831 said:


> Maybe.... I really think a lot of this is violence for violence sake. People are hurting, lonely, angry and messed up on drugs and alcohol and they just want to break or hurt something. If your standing there, your it.



That's part of it.  A lot of it is just poor or no home training.  My Dad always taught me to respect my elders and he warned me that if I ever raised a hand against a grown man I should prepare to receive a major league butt whuppin'.  I was pretty rowdy as a teenager but me and my friends never would have considered ganging up on a grown man for any reason.  The thought just never occurred to us.  In fact, we'd fight each other at the drop of a hat but we thought it was cowardly and dishonorable to gang up on anybody.  

A lot of this stuff is just people giving in to the animal instinct.  Dogs are that way.  You can have a dog that's just as gentle and obedient as the day is long but let him get loose and hook up with a couple of other dogs and next thing you know they're looking for something to kill.  

Of course, we're not dogs.  Are we?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 18, 2009)

K831 said:


> Maybe.... I really think a lot of this is violence for violence sake. People are hurting, lonely, angry and messed up on drugs and alcohol and they just want to break or hurt something. If your standing there, your it.



Actually, if I'M standing there, THEY are it.:btg:


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## blackxpress (Jul 19, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Actually, if I'M standing there, THEY are it.:btg:



True dat.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 20, 2009)

I take no great pleasure in hurting people.......but if they buy it, I have no particular remorse over it either.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 20, 2009)

I hear ya SGT.  I try to stay neutral...derriving no remorse or pleasure, just moving through the target(s) and moving on with my life.


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## K831 (Jul 21, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I hear ya SGT.  I try to stay neutral...derriving no remorse or pleasure, just moving through the target(s) and moving on with my life.



That's pretty much it. 

When I have had to react violently, I feel badly afterward that it had to happen, that the world is such that a person may have to harm or take the like of another in defense of the innocent. But I don't feel any personal remorse for having chosen to defend myself or someone else.


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## still learning (Jul 22, 2009)

Hello,  The one rule that works?  ...run away at first chance...MOST of us will not last in fight..because of the adrenline and will tire out...

Gangs have more time to look for weapons around them....UNLESS you are in condition like Bruce lee ...and can move faster than the rest of them?  .....RUN AWAY!!!    alway be looking for escaping...

Techniques works....but getting hitting on the blind side or back side?  ...how do you prevent this?  ....with a couple of guys facing you?

Sure some people do survive and win in some gang attacks...MORE people die from them....or get real seriouly injuries...

Multiple attachers...always have the advantages....BE SMART....RUN!

Aloha,


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## blackxpress (Jul 22, 2009)

Ah, yes.  Good ol' Nike-jutsu.  Always a good idea.  Unless, of course, the other guys can run faster than you.  Then you're screwed for sure.


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## still learning (Jul 23, 2009)

Hello,  just wanted to add a another rule here...most likely the most important one for everyone?

Running faster is always good....

IT is "CONDITION" ...the main key to survival

Aloha,

PS: What condition are you in?


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 24, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> Ah, yes.  Good ol' Nike-jutsu.  Always a good idea.  Unless, of course, the other guys can run faster than you.  Then you're screwed for sure.



I can't run fast.....never could.  Even in peek condition I can run far.....but not FAST......so if push comes to shove I HAVE to fight!

But I carry a gun with plenty of ammunition, so it evens out.


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## still learning (Jul 24, 2009)

Hello,  One way to find out...how  you can last in a Multiple attacks...is HAVE several students attack you?  ...and there choice when to attack...there choice of surrounding you...

In the real world....we would surround you...and use weapons we can find/ if we do not have them on us ..too  (students options here).

You will find the answers you are looking for....

Remember you are in a friendly enviroment, most liking NO adrenline, NO pumping of the blood...lighted area,in safe place, and rules (not to hit for reals)....Plus you will have time limits and can rest with NO worries..

Ready?   

Aloha,   ...many believe..they can...only fools...go to heaven..or the hospital...


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## still learning (Jul 24, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, One way to find out...how you can last in a Multiple attacks...is HAVE several students attack you? ...and there choice when to attack...there choice of surrounding you...
> 
> In the real world....we would surround you...and use weapons we can find/ if we do not have them on us ..too (students options here).
> 
> ...


 
Can't run one mile? ...someone is going to catch you?


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## still learning (Jul 24, 2009)

Hello, OH one more thing...sometimes you can win..and survive....this is good.

Aloha,


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 24, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  One way to find out...how  you can last in a Multiple attacks...is HAVE several students attack you?  ...and there choice when to attack...there choice of surrounding you...
> 
> In the real world....we would surround you...and use weapons we can find/ if we do not have them on us ..too  (students options here).
> 
> ...



It always deteriorates in to me grabbing one of the attackers and using him as a human shield for some reason.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 25, 2009)

Well I have not really been in any real life group attacks so I dont have much to contribute, but I would like to thank everyone for their advice!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 25, 2009)

Mike Hamer said:


> Well I have not really been in any real life group attacks so I dont have much to contribute, but I would like to thank everyone for their advice!



I've never been in a group (i.e. more than two) attack.......but I did get in a fight with two punks at once many years ago in a trailer park in Houston, Texas of all places (it's a LONG story!).   

Fortunately for me (as I pointed out I take hostages) I was able to knock the tougher of the two down, and when he got up had him in a rear naked choke.  In the tussle I caught some punches in the back of the head from the other guy (he seemed to have far less experience in fighting than his buddy) that were pretty ineffective (if he'd had a weapon, though, i'd have been screwed).

I'm pretty sure I broke one of the guys jaw, and if the other guys nose wasn't broke, it was pretty swollen and bloody.......I got the hell out of there as some of their friends were showing up.

I got out of the fight with nothing but a couple of very superficial bumps on the back of my melon........Bottom line.......I got DAMN lucky!  

I don't recommend it!  It actually turns in to more of an upright tumbling jumble of limbs than the 'One at a time' group fights seen on TV (or at least it does in a little dinky trailer bedroom the size of a broom closet!)



If one does find themselves in the situation like that, and they can't escape........I recommend doing what I did....feign momentary submission and THEN.....hit the Leader/Mouth of the group FIRST as HARD AS YOU CAN, for MAXIMUM DAMAGE, and fight like hell!


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## K831 (Jul 25, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> If one does find themselves in the situation like that, and they can't escape........I recommend doing what I did....feign momentary submission and THEN.....hit the Leader/Mouth of the group FIRST as HARD AS YOU CAN, for MAXIMUM DAMAGE, and fight like hell!




That's the key. The leader if you can, otherwise the nearest threat... should go down as hard and as violently as you can possibly put him down. He should be howling in pain with his knee inside out and coughing and choking on his own blood. Something that will get the attention of the rest.

To quote Wyatt Earp (in Tombstone);

Wyatt Earp to Ike Clanton: "You die first, get it? Your friends might get me in a rush, but not before I make your head into a canoe, you understand me?"

Every man there should feel as though the first/next one near you will get torn in half before the rest overtake you. 

Much of this can be done psychologically. If you have real intent, they will see it in your eyes and your body language. What you say and how you say it will further drive it home.

I can remember situations as early as high school and as recent as some of the security work I have done. You can look in a mans eyes and if you have real intent, your eyes will tell him that you will kill him, his eyes will tell you if you have him cowed, or if a confrontation is inevitable.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 26, 2009)

K831 said:


> That's the key. The leader if you can, otherwise the nearest threat... should go down as hard and as violently as you can possibly put him down. He should be howling in pain with his knee inside out and coughing and choking on his own blood. Something that will get the attention of the rest.
> 
> To quote Wyatt Earp (in Tombstone);
> 
> ...



That's absolutely right........when dealing with a group, one must be aggressive and act with absolute authority and confidence........will that guarantee you won't end up in a stomp down?  NOPE!   There are no guarantees if you've stupidly managed to walk in to such a situation.......but if you're past the point of no return, the only solution is to JUMP IN with BOTH FEET because a moments hesitation or appearance of weakness when dealing with a pack of wolves may be your last!  That's a situation where aggression will save you when caution won't.........caution should have kept you out of it in the first place......if you're already in the middle of it, it's time to toss caution to the wind and go for broke.


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2009)

Hello, Again....in class have a group of 2-6 people attack you....and let them have some hard contact (NO throat, groin,eye attacks-for satey)... any ranking...the group can use any weapons around them...or on the ground too...

You will see ...you can win at times...MOST likely..you will lose in the real enviroment.  large groups- can rest inbetween...

Yes sometimes you can survive....Musashi did many times against mulitlpe attackers with swords....(Read Musashi Miyamoto)....Read his book...the Book of Five Rings...

IF you really want to learn martial arts? ...Musashi " Book of Five Rings" is one the most important books in the MA world!

Aloha,


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 28, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Again....in class have a group of 2-6 people attack you....and let them have some hard contact (NO throat, groin,eye attacks-for satey)... any ranking...the group can use any weapons around them...or on the ground too...
> 
> You will see ...you can win at times...MOST likely..you will lose in the real enviroment.  large groups- can rest inbetween...
> 
> ...



Musashi's book is a must for anyone seriously wanting to understand violent individual conflict.  

Which translation do you prefer?  I've read several, but I find Stephen F. Kaufman's version most accessible and applicable to martial artists, keeping to the spirit of Musashi without getting tied up in the minutia of translation.......if one is looking for a purely scholarly version Kaufman's is probably not the way to go......but as usual there is a gulf between those looking for scholarly density and practical application.  

Victor Harris provides a very good translation as well.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 28, 2009)

+100

I love "meat shields" SGT... preferably ones that are in between conciousness but not quite done.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 28, 2009)

Another option may also be to loudly announce to everyone in ear shot that you have a communicable blood disease like Rabies and are also a prolific bleeder.......and WILL bite and/or bleed on anyone who attacks!  Then follow up by foaming at the mouth and barking loudly at everyone.


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## BLACK LION (Jul 29, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Another option may also be to loudly announce to everyone in ear shot that you have a communicable blood disease like Rabies and are also a prolific bleeder.......and WILL bite and/or bleed on anyone who attacks! Then follow up by foaming at the mouth and barking loudly at everyone.


hahahahahaha... stuff like that works.

 One time while I was walking about on a friday night in downtown San Diego I cam upon a crowded sidewalk where a bunch of dodos where nestled around each other and not listening to security tell them to form a single file line... since they were blocking the entire sidewalk I had to wade thru them... some of them kinda flopped asid and others needed a little nudge...   some idiot decides its a good  idea to shove me in the back and out of the crowd...   he and all his friends look at me like "what" which in-turn cuaght the rest of the "crowds" attention and everyone else on the street... they were expecting me to catch a beatin real quick...    
I stood there staring right through them and in a loud growling voice I told the guy that that pushed me..." I will rip your ear off in front of all these people"...  got everyones attention... then again I said... "Do you hear me, I will pull you f------ ear off in front of all these people"... he began apologizing perfusely...


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