# My First ITF Class



## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 14, 2015)

I am travelling for work as I often do, this time in Mont Tremblant Quebec, and attended my first ITF class. It was more or less as I expected, and made for a nice change.

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First, after changing into track pants (since I only have a WTF dobok) I talked with the Master and he asked if I knew the difference between ITF and WTF styles. That's a ton of arguments here on this site about that question, but my response was that ITF felt the influence of General Choi, and WTF(style!) clubs felt the influence of tournament sparring.  He talked of punches to the head in ITF, and was very respectful of WTF, with no talk of "real" tkd, so that was nice.

In terms of the class, there was a lot of why I would say is boxing style punching.  We did punching drills culminating with jab, cross, hook, duck, hook, then turning kick.  I was glad to finally do some practical punching, which we don't do in my current WTF-style club.  (As an aside, my current club has a sign outside that says "kickboxing, self-defence, taekwondo" and one teenager commented that he joined in part for the kickboxing aspect.  Fast forward 1 year later, we have done a few punches from the waist in a horse-riding stance in 1 class out of maybe 50, and that's it.).

Unfortunately, I somehow pulled a calf muscle.  I went to spring up on a turning kick and felt a pop in my calf.  Now it is tight and sore.  I've never had that before. The only thing I can think of is that I was poorly hydrated, as my workplace this week lacks a bathroom, so I don't drink too much water.

One final aspect I liked is the practical kiup / breathing during a punch or kick.  In this class, like at most ITF clubs I think, it was a focussed breath out like in boxing.  The exagerated kiup in WTF competitions is one of my pet peeves.  IMO, a kiup longer than say 1/2 second is about showboating, especially when it's accompanied by a raised hand. 

In closing I really liked the ITF class and club, and I think it is more suited to me than WTF.  With that said, I also like the challenge of pracitising more kicking, as we do at the WTF club I attend.  All in all, I think ITF suits me well, but will continue along in WTF as it's the path I am already on.


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## Laplace_demon (Apr 15, 2015)

Alright then. Is there anything you wish to discuss, or did you just want to let us in on this?


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 15, 2015)

Are you planning on visiting more Schools or styles as you travel?  If so will you be staying within the TKD systems or do you plan on visiting other styles?
Happy to hear you enjoyed your time at that school


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## TrueJim (Apr 15, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> He talked of punches to the head in ITF, and was very respectful of WTF, with no talk of "real" tkd, so that was nice.



The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, and when he's teaching he likes to spend a few minutes talking about taekwondo in general (often during our cool-down stretches). A couple months ago he mentioned General Choi in his lecture, and he talked about how much respect he and the other instructors at our school (the others of whom are quite young...ex-K-Tigers in their mid 20s) have for General Choi. I agree, it was very nice to hear that kind of "Hey, it's all taekwondo" kind of sentiment, especially from younger Koreans who are very thoroughly immersed in the Kukkiwon-style.

(As an aside: I think I may have already mentioned this in a previous thread: at a local 1,000+ competitor local tournament recently, our school won 3 of the 6 tournament championships. Two tournament-champs in forms and 1 in sparring. At least when it comes to Kukkiwon-style tournaments, it seems you gotta hand it to K-Tigers: they know how to teach!)



> In terms of the class, there was a lot of what I would say is boxing style punching.  We did punching drills culminating with jab, cross, hook, duck, hook, then turning kick.



Were these done in the air, or against targets? It sounds like fun, but I think it'd be a lot more fun against a heavy bag!



> (As an aside, my current club has a sign outside that says "kickboxing, self-defence, taekwondo" and one teenager commented that he joined in part for the kickboxing aspect.  Fast forward 1 year later, we have done a few punches from the waist in a horse-riding stance in 1 class out of maybe 50, and that's it.).



Out of curiosity, has the teenager stuck around?

We do punching drills from horse-riding stance all the time at our school, though candidly I think the reason is only 50% to improve our punches, and 50% to strengthen our thighs. I'm kinda thick sometimes, so it took me a while to realize that the punching drills were as much about strengthening our legs as they were about punching. Our instructors keep us in those stances for a _long_ time.



> In closing I really liked the ITF class and club, and I think it is more suited to me than WTF.  With that said, I also like the challenge of practicing more kicking, as we do at the WTF club I attend.  All in all, I think ITF suits me well, but will continue along in WTF as it's the path I am already on.



You know, as I understand it, _*in theory*_ this is the idea of ATA schools: there's more emphasis on kicking than at ITF, and more emphasis on self-defense than at Kukkiwon/WTF. So_ in theory_, ATA schools should be a very cool style of taekwondo; perfect for you, from what you describe! From things I've heard though, the problem is that the quality of instruction at ATA schools can be very uneven (some ATA schools are great, others not so much, supposedly). Of course that will be true in any style, but ATA has the reputation at least of having that problem more than other styles.

Here in the suburbs of northern Virginia, you can't swing a cat without hitting a taekwondo school. In my neighborhood, we have one ITF-style school, 3 Kukkiwon/WTF-style schools, and 1 ATA-style school. Maybe one of these days I ought to try a trial lesson at some of these other schools!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 15, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Alright then. Is there anything you wish to discuss, or did you just want to let us in on this?


Discuss or ignore as you wish


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 15, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Are you planning on visiting more Schools or styles as you travel?  If so will you be staying within the TKD systems or do you plan on visiting other styles?



I will try to visit other schools as I travel.  I am trying to go to WTF schools when I can, but I branch out from there in my googling.  I had wanted to visit a Karate school in a small PEI town, as that was the only traditional MA school I found, but the school closed for a snow storm.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2015)

Visiting other schools and other styles is a fun and instructive thing. We have a local group which, basically, tries to get together instructors and senior students from as many different schools as possible on a regular basis. It might be a sparring night, a technique night, or whatever, but it is always interesting.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 15, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> The head of our school is a Kukkiwon 7th Dan, and when he's teaching he likes to spend a few minutes talking about taekwondo in general (often during our cool-down stretches). A couple months ago he mentioned General Choi in his lecture, and he talked about how much respect he and the other instructors at our school (the others of whom are quite young...ex-K-Tigers in their mid 20s) have for General Choi.


At my previous school, the Korean Kwonjanim had young TKD graduates from Korea stay for 6 months - 1 year and teach. I asked one if they ever talk about General Choi in his studies, or whether he is just a footnote in their books.  He commented that I must really know TKD to know about him, which I inferred meant he's a footnote in the TKD books at Seoul.  As an aside, at the ITF club yesterday, there was a picture of General Choi, along with the TKD tenets (in French) and thanks to this site, I felt quite comfortable being in the class.




TrueJim said:


> Were these done in the air, or against targets? It sounds like fun, but I think it'd be a lot more fun against a heavy bag!


Hand mitts.  The ducking of punches was new to me.  I had practised hooks from you tube videos but never ducking / slipping.  It's definitely a weak point for me.





TrueJim said:


> Out of curiosity, has the teenager stuck around?


He did. I think the school is very close for him.




TrueJim said:


> We do punching drills from horse-riding stance all the time at our school, though candidly I think the reason is only 50% to improve our punches, and 50% to strengthen our thighs.


My previous school's KJN was a 2 time WTF world champion.  He said tournament fighting is 90%kicks, while street is 90% hands.  I thought that it was interesting that even a guy who was really good with his feet feels that punches are incredibly simple, quick, and non-committed, and hence effective.




TrueJim said:


> Maybe one of these days I ought to try a trial lesson at some of these other schools!


The only problem with trying a local school is the "so are you going to join".  Travelling lets me try a school that I wouldn't try if it were in my city.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 15, 2015)

At the Kukkiwon FIC in 2013 General Choi was discussed a bit by the lecturer on taekwondo history. He acknowledged General Choi, but talked about how he was a controversial figure. The topic came up in reference to the "tenets of taekwondo."


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Hand mitts. The ducking of punches was new to me. I had practised hooks from you tube videos but never ducking / slipping. It's definitely a weak point for me.



There's nothing like being smacked round the head by one when you fail to duck properly!

Thank you for the OP, I enjoy reading about other styles, how they train and what they do. It widens my perspective about martial arts as a whole.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> There's nothing like being smacked round the head by one when you fail to duck properly!


Good point, and yes I did duck once right INTO the punch.  

I realise in this week's class that the style you practice in develops habits that you may not realise are suitable for your rule set, but perhaps not for other rule sets. 

In my first WTF sparring as a white belt, I ducked an instructor's turning kick and he told me not to do it, because while it may work with the other low-level club members, the higher level opponents will kick me to the head even more easily the 2nd time I try ducking.  So I got in the habit of never ducking - only moving or blocking. So it's good to expand the horizons!


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Good point, and yes I did duck once right INTO the punch.



There's the other one of course where you are holding the pads and your partner hits them, the pad goes straight into your face because you didn't push as they punched or if you did they hit it _too_ hard...well that's your story anyway lol.


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## Laplace_demon (Apr 17, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> At the Kukkiwon FIC in 2013 General Choi was discussed a bit by the lecturer on taekwondo history. He acknowledged General Choi, but talked about how he was a controversial figure. The topic came up in reference to the "tenets of taekwondo."



Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.


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## Drose427 (Apr 17, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.



It isnt just those 2, technically none of the 9 kwans were doing the same thing.

They all had different backgrounds, the only commonality really was their styles were blends of korean and japanese martial arts.

We took the name TKD like many other martial arts schools in korea, but our lineage has very little to do with choi or the founders of Kukki.

Our Shorin influence is present in our our forms (we dont even do shotokan forms), and we do none of the ITF and Kukki forms that im aware of.

As jumbled up as TKD lineages can be because of all the slapping the TKD name onto schools, technically speaking since TKD was founded by several gentlemen, they varying historys arent necessarily wrong. Theyre just dofferent sides of the same coin.

If you wanna get technical, this isnt inclusive to TKD. Many Karate and Kung Fu schools are radically different but still get labeled the same.

Heck, people use the term "Jiu Jitu" to referbto BJJ and JJJ and theyre radically different as well.

At least when the 9 kwans chose to do a general label, knowing they were radically different, they had good reason for it.


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## Laplace_demon (Apr 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> If you wanna get technical, this isnt inclusive to TKD. Many Karate and Kung Fu schools are radically different but still get labeled the same.



Well that's no problem for me, since I don't stop my terminological and philosophical objections at the TKD unification.


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## Chrisoro (Apr 26, 2015)

Here in Norway, we have this chain of gyms teaching Kukki-style TKD(and registering their dan ranks with the Kukkiwon), with a curriculum that includes both the traditional aspects of Kukki style TKD(the official kukki poomsae, sparring and training for WTF competition, etc), but also boxing style punches, movement and sparring(but with kicks ofcourse, so this kind of sparring is somewhat more akin to WAKO kickboxing), some escapes and counters on the ground, and a few of the more practical standing wrist and arm-locks from hapkido. I don't train in this chain, allthough I have considered it several times, and might train there in the future. Sounds like something that would fit OP perfectly.

Even though I started out in Kukki-style TKD in 1992, I considered joining an ITF club after a few years of Kukki, because of their sparring ruleset, and I even visited several in an attempt to see if it was something that would fit me, but I was scared away by how almost all the ITF representatives I met seemingly used any oportunity they got to bash what they called "WTF-style", saying that everything that I had previously learned was useless or "watered down" (even though I more than held my own in sparring once I figured out the differences in distancing), and presenting an extremely simplified view of the process of how TKD was developed, and ofcourse, without fail presented Choi as the hero who single handidly created TKD, but was buttfucked by the thieves in WTF, who for no reason other than jealousy for Choi's enormous genious stole everything, and tried to destroy Chois life. No mention of any controversy on Choi's part, or of the work of any of the other representatives of the other Kwans. This was in Norway in the nineties, so things might have gotten better now, or may even be different in other places(as OP's post indicate) but in either case, I ended up doing kickboxing and then amateur boxing instead(and a whole lot of other arts even later down the road), and don't think I have lost out on much when it comes to hands.


The way almost all ITF practitioners I have ever met in real life and actuallly talked to, solely credits Gen. Choi for Taekwondo(yes, everything, not just the name, the ITF forms and curriculum, and some of the work spreading it, but everything, even going as far as saying that everything related to Kukki-TKD was stolen from or inspired by Choi), and completely disregards the work of all the other pioneers of TKD, the KTA, and the huge influence of Karate on anything TKD, feels too much like a cult for me, and as a result, I don't see myself EVER training ITF. I have a huge problem with anything resembling cults of personality, and the constant need to put down Kukki-style, indicates to me a very unhealthy organisational culture fueled by a bunch of complexes. Other than that, I think the ITF sparring ruleset is great, though I'm not sold on the sinewave motion that some ITF clubs use whe doing forms.


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## Chrisoro (Apr 26, 2015)

> Which is one of the reasons the ITF and KKW should not be inclusive and that a shared name (TKD) was unfortunate. One (ITF) credits General Choi as the founder and creator, while the other does not. Therefore the twos philosophy and account of history is radically different. There is simply no good reason for them both to be named TKD, especially given that the KKW expanded and developed techniques further, uniquely seperating themselves on technical grounds as well.



Well, it is important to remember that the term "Tae Kwon Do" was suggested, offered and accepted as a common term for what was taught by ALL the different Kwans, in a setting (early KTA) where all involved parties understood this to be a project involving multiple perspectives, for both nationalistic reasons and for the greater good of the arts, and with unification of a bunch of different traditions doing things in a bunch of different ways as the ultimate goal. Considering that the Kukkiwon is an institution created by the KTA for standardization purposes, and the term initially was suggested and accepted as a common term for the arts of the various schools involved in the KTA, I think that if contested, Kukki-style TKD have as good a claim to the term as anypne. It's after all a continuation of the same organization that Choi offered the term to in the first place.

Choi was an organizational and marketing genious, and I have no problems admiting that he had several important contributions to the art before splitting with the KTA, but Chois later claim to ownership of the term, and his insistance that only his Oh Do Kwan derived ITF-Tae Kwon-Do is "real TKD", and superior to anything else, once he realized he couldn't make everyone in the KTA do things his way, is as I see it a testament to his ego more than anything.


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2015)

Chrisoro, hugely impressed that in the first of your two posts you got _that_ word past the censor here!


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## Chrisoro (Apr 26, 2015)

Oops. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like I have the ability to edit the post anymore. Sorry if I offended anyone.


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## Gnarlie (Apr 26, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Oops. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like I have the ability to edit the post anymore. Sorry if I offended anyone.



Not at all, I gave it the thumbs up. So to speak....


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 27, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> boxing style punches, movement and sparring(but with kicks ofcourse, so this kind of sparring is somewhat more akin to WAKO kickboxing), some escapes and counters on the ground, and a few of the more practical standing wrist and arm-locks from hapkido. I don't train in this chain, allthough I have considered it several times, and might train there in the future. Sounds like something that would fit OP perfectly.



Yes I would enjoy that.  However, I think kicking is very hard to do well, so I also enjoy the "kicking, kicking, and more kicking" schools (using Manny's terminology).  What I don't like is spending time on things that I can't see myself using directly, like complicated 1 step sparrings that are contingent on my partner staying in his punching stance while I do 5 moves.



Chrisoro said:


> Even though I started out in Kukki-style TKD in 1992, I considered joining an ITF club after a few years of Kukki, because of their sparring ruleset, and I even visited several in an attempt to see if it was something that would fit me, but I was scared away by how almost all the ITF representatives I met seemingly used any oportunity they got to bash what they called "WTF-style", saying that everything that I had previously learned was useless or "watered down"


I had the same experience. I posted before that I did TKD in university for 4 months in 1994.  My house mate said he was in TKD too, but I never saw him there.  Then when it came out that he was in the ITF class and I was in the WTF class, he said, "Oh, I am studying the REAL TKD.".  So I asked what "real" means and he said, "for instance, you wouldn't be able to defend if I did this" and he ran into me.

My first (yellow belt) instinct was a side kick to the face, so I picked up my front leg and side kicked his nose as he rushed in, pulling my kick so that I just tapped him.  After he rubbed his nose, he never again said my TKD sucked.  Arguably he made his point that I didn't select the best technique, but it was good enough to stop him.

The only other time someone said "TKD sucks" was about 4 years prior in 1990 or 1991, also at university, and also as a yellow belt.  My HK friend (a yellow belt but lifelong student of CMA) wko was teaching me kicking, introduced me to a guy in his residence, saying I was the guy from the TKD class that he was teaching, and I was pretty good.  The guy said "TKD sucks.  I could beat you up".   I said "yeah, I'm not very good." And he repeated that he could beat me up and I said "yeah, I'm only a yellow belt".  And then the guy started pushing me.  After a little shoving the guy wouldn't stop so I did a turning kick to his head, pulling my kick a few inches from his head.  After that, he stopped saying he could beat me up.


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## ATC (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't think punching to the head and boxing style punches in general are a WTF vs. ITF thing. I think it is more of an instructor thing. I teach punching all the time from a boxing stand point and we do WTF sparring at our school. Punching is a big part of our test as we call it combat punching vs. TKD or martial art punching from the hip. Just my .02.


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## Laplace_demon (May 3, 2015)

ATC said:


> I don't think punching to the head and boxing style punches in general are a WTF vs. ITF thing. I think it is more of an instructor thing. I teach punching all the time from a boxing stand point and we do WTF sparring at our school. Punching is a big part of our test as we call it combat punching vs. TKD or martial art punching from the hip. Just my .02.



Given that WTF sparring promotes and is mostly about kicking, it's no wonder punching is secondary in KKW. I certainly wasn't bored training the art. You definately develop skills applicable either directly or indirectly in real life, regardless of the fact that many of the kicks are extravagant. ITFs problem is probably the complete opposite - spending too much time on the traditional aspects, although this might vary from school to school. You get good at what you do, and even sport geared schools has an edge in that regard. Just like boxers get good at boxing because they actually box alot.


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## Laplace_demon (May 3, 2015)

I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.


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## Earl Weiss (May 6, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.



I will have to review my IIC notes and the texts but I vividly recall a statement by General Choi to the effect that "There is a standard method for executing techniques, but that may be modified depending on the circumstances. "    So, if you define "TKD Strikes" as how  technical pattern parameters are stipulated, then you are over simplifying the art.  

A bigger issue is that the goal of TKD "One technique for victory" is much different than the competition goal which is score the most / give up the least amount of points.

 Wouldn't the same comment apply to not using pattern stances in sparring? How about not using pattern footwork?


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## TrueJim (May 6, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.



I could be mistaken, but I don't believe weapons training (how to use weapons) is a part of the formal ITF/Chang Hon or WTF/Kukkiwon curricula either. From what I hear, a lot of schools also teach some grappling/throwing techniques beyond what's a formal part of either curricula too. How do you feel about those things (weapons and additional techniques) being taught in taekwondo schools?


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## Laplace_demon (May 8, 2015)

[QUOTE="Earl Weiss, post: 1703787, member: 

Wouldn't the same comment apply to not using pattern stances in sparring? How about not using pattern footwork?[/QUOTE]

Mr Weiss, modifing TKD strikes and teaching straight up boxing punches against mitts is not the same thing. There are martial arts which do use stances from patterns in free sparring. Traditional Shotokan kumite for an example. Stances in Shotokan are only deep for beginner and intermediate students. They are natural for advanced levels.

Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.


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## TrueJim (May 8, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.



Would you say that this is true for any martial arts school that teaches anything outside the formal curriculum of that art?


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## Earl Weiss (May 9, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> [QUOTE="Earl Weiss, post: 1703787, member:
> 
> Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.



Wouldn't the same apply for the BJJ guy who trains in another art to improve their striking (admission of inferiority of BJJ)  so they can compete more effectively in MMA? .


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## Laplace_demon (May 9, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Wouldn't the same apply for the BJJ guy who trains in another art to improve their striking (admission of inferiority of BJJ)  so they can compete more effectively in MMA? .



In a BJJ school, yes. Why do you think I would single out TKD?


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## Laplace_demon (May 9, 2015)

Btw Mr Weiss, your claim that ITF TKD strikes/kicks are those found in a patterns cannot be true. TKD strikes/kicks part of the curriculum but *absent* from ITF patterns include: Jumping back kick, jumping side kick, Hook kick, Tornado etc. Plenty of combat techniques missing from patterns.


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## Laplace_demon (May 9, 2015)

Several aerial kicks in breaking demonstrations are also not featured in Chois patterns.


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## Jaeimseu (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Several aerial kicks in breaking demonstrations are also not featured in Chois patterns.


This is true. However, a jump 1080 round kick is still a round kick. Plus, if you watch those old videos you'll notice that many of the aerial kicking techniques we see today didn't exist back then. That's true in many athletic endeavors. Today's athletes innovate and push the limits. Tomorrow's athletes will likely push the boundaries further. Taekwondo is not static. It is like language, constantly changing.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> This is true. However, a jump 1080 round kick is still a round kick. Plus, if you watch those old videos you'll notice that many of the aerial kicking techniques we see today didn't exist back then. That's true in many athletic endeavors. Today's athletes innovate and push the limits. Tomorrow's athletes will likely push the boundaries further. Taekwondo is not static. It is like language, constantly changing.



I have Chois Encyklopedia from 1965, in PDF containing aerial kick demonstrations that did not make it in his patterns. They are fairly basic.

Hook kick is not an aerial.


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## Jaeimseu (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I have Chois Encyklopedia from 1965, in PDF containing aerial kick demonstrations that did not make it in his patterns. They are fairly basic.
> 
> Hook kick is not an aerial.


Do you know when the last pattern was completed? Do you expect patterns to be updated every time a new technique surfaces?


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> Do you know when the last pattern was completed? Do you expect patterns to be updated every time a new technique surfaces?



I would assume somewhere in 1966, since that's when all had been completed.


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## Earl Weiss (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> In a BJJ school, yes. Why do you think I would single out TKD?




Well, Royce Gracie took Muay Thai classes to improve his striking so you conclude he acknowledges the inferiority of BJJ.

I can guess why you single out TKD, but there is no real point in guessing, you can simply tell us.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, Royce Gracie took Muay Thai classes to improve his striking so you conclude he acknowledges the inferiority of BJJ.
> 
> I can guess why you single out TKD, but there is no real point in guessing, you can simply tell us.



I don't single out TKD. And it is an admission of art inferiority for a school to teach rival styles techniques. Which ever school of style it might be.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I don't single out TKD. And it is an admission of art inferiority for a school to teach rival styles techniques. Which ever school of style it might be.


It's a rather closed and immature view that sees other styles as rivals.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> It's a rather closed and immature view that sees other styles as rivals.



It's a rival method at the very least. You are stuck on semantics instead of the bigger point.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> It's a rival method at the very least. You are stuck on semantics instead of the bigger point.


A person would be a fool not to look beyond the borders of their art. That doesn't mean an admission of anything, just due diligence in finding an approach that works for the individual.


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## TrueJim (May 10, 2015)

*Step 1:* Make some overly-simplistic claim that is generally not true, preferably a claim that diminishes either a style or a noteworthy person.

*Step 2:* When the claim is refuted by facts and evidence, roll a dice and select randomly from the following list:

a) "My father is famous and he says it's true."

b) "I don't have to prove my point, because it's something everybody already knows."

c) Use as counter-evidence an isolated anecdote, preferably one that has nothing to do with your original claim.

d) Cite your own experience and claim that your experience is the universal norm.

e) Argue that the refuted evidence is off-topic.

f) Contend that the evidence is irrelevant, because you are smarter than everybody else.

*Step 3. *As additional refutations of your overly-simplistic claim continue to be provided, repeat Step 2. Repeat indefinitely. Repeat forever.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> A person would be a fool not to look beyond the borders of their art. That doesn't mean an admission of anything, just due diligence in finding an approach that works for the individual.



That's not what's being discussed. What I wrote about is (again) specific schools teaching rival methods. I did not pay a TKD or Karate school to have me train watered down Boxing, or BJJ or anything else. I payed the school to have me train TKD, Karate or some other martial art.

By your definition, my father is a fool. All he ever did was Shotokan.


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## Dirty Dog (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> That's not what's being discussed. What I wrote about is (again) specific schools teaching rival methods. I did not pay a TKD or Karate school to have me train watered down Boxing, or BJJ or anything else. I payed the school to have me train TKD, Karate or some other martial art.
> 
> By your definition, my father is a fool. All he ever did was Shotokan.



No... from all anybody can tell, your father is actually a myth. Sort of like your in depth knowledge.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> That's not what's being discussed. What I wrote about is (again) specific schools teaching rival methods. I did not pay a TKD or Karate school to have me train watered down Boxing, or BJJ or anything else. I payed the school to have me train TKD, Karate or some other martial art.
> 
> By your definition, my father is a fool. All he ever did was Shotokan.



Here's the thing. Most boxing techniques exist as formally stylised techniques within Taekwondo. Practicing any kind of boxing style combinations is therefore only practicing applied Taekwondo principles, not as you put it 'watered down boxing'.

Assuming that Mirce Opeloski (I guess thats the fella you keep referencing) is actually related to you, OK he practices Shotokan.  But to say he had never looked at techniques from other arts, never looked over the edge....sounds fishy.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Here's the thing. Most boxing techniques exist as formally stylised techniques within Taekwondo. Practicing any kind of boxing style combinations is therefore only practicing applied Taekwondo principles, not as you put it 'watered down boxing'.
> 
> Assuming that Mirce Opeloski (I guess thats the fella you keep referencing) is actually related to you, OK he practices Shotokan.  But to say he had never looked at techniques from other arts, never looked over the edge....sounds fishy.



He did not. Unless you count basketball as martial arts. So is he a fool?


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> He did not. Unless you count basketball as martial arts. So is he a fool?



I don't believe you...even if he is related to you, you would never know the absolute truth about what might have influenced his training. Everyone is influenced by everything they see or hear, whether they want to be or not.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't believe you...even if he is related to you, you would never know the absolute truth about what might have influenced his training. Everyone is influenced by everything they see or hear, whether they want to be or not.



Pathetic dodge.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Pathetic dodge.


Look, you took my general statement on training wisdom: 'a person would be a fool not to look outside the confines of their art' and applied it directly to one person who frankly, I don't know from Adam.

I would never disrespect another martial artist directly in that way. You made that statement, not me. The difference between us is I have respect for others. You seem to struggle with that.

I find it highly unlikely that a seasoned martial artist of any style has not had exposure to and been influenced by other styles. 

You seem to want to win in some way. I am not sure what you think you are winning. You seem keen to apply that fool tag. I have an idea.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Additionally: a note on how English works. The word 'would' indicates a hypthetical or conjunctive situation. Not a real one.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

How do you know my first name?


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> That's not what's being discussed. What I wrote about is (again) specific schools teaching rival methods. I did not pay a TKD or Karate school to have me train watered down Boxing, or BJJ or anything else. I payed the school to have me train TKD, Karate or some other martial art.



Again, not 'rival' anything. 

Working with ideas from other arts can develop new ways to apply the principles of your base art. That is the value of bringing in ideas. However, where I do that, I tend to bring in an expert from the style in question and actually learn the stuff. We have dedicated boxing trainers in our club.

This approach helps us to see new ways to apply old knowledge and skills.


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Assuming that Mirce Opeloski (I guess thats the fella you keep referencing) is actually related to you, OK he practices Shotokan. But to say he had never looked at techniques from other arts, never looked over the edge....sounds fishy.



Looking at this person's FB page it would seem he does look at other styles. We have a friend in common too, Datu Hartman, perhaps a word from him on here would help?


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> How do you know my first name?


Well, I didn't, but I guess we all do now.

I said I didn't know him from Adam.  You know, Adam. From the bible.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Well, I didn't, but I guess we all do now.
> 
> I said I didn't know him from Adam.  You know, Adam. From the bible.



Seriously,  how in the the world do you know my sir name. Have you asked him?


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Calm down, I knew his name because you basically gave it. I didn't know your name. There is an idiom in English 'to not know someone from Adam', which describes someone who is a total stranger to you. When I used that idiom, I meant I know nothing about Mr Opeloski. He is a stranger to me.


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## Laplace_demon (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Calm down, I knew his name because you basically gave it. I didn't know your name. There is an idiom in English 'to not know someone from Adam', which describes someone who is a total stranger to you. When I used that idiom, I meant I know nothing about Mr Opeloski. He is a stranger to me.



Context. You used it in a very, very coincidental circumstance.

Where are the boxing type punches in the Choi encyklopedia, 1965. Remember, this dates back to the origin. If it should be found anywhere, it would likely been here.


I only see typical Karate strikes.


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## TrueJim (May 10, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Calm down, I knew his name because you basically gave it...



I'm still trying to dox the real names of Andy Jeffries and Earl Weiss, but they're proving to be slippery.


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## Gnarlie (May 10, 2015)

Taekwondo is not static. There's more to it than what is in the book. But still, you don't see traditional and stylised versions of the jab, straight, upper cut, and hook, for example? Deformalised, along with backfist, spin backfist, hammer fists, palm heels, knife hands, thrusts, slaps and forearms, they form the basis of a very useable hand system without the need to rely wholly on western boxing. You'd have to be blind or fairly unimaginative not to see it and develop it.


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## Earl Weiss (May 11, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> I'm still trying to dox the real names of ......... Earl Weiss, but they're proving to be slippery.


Dang, you caught me, I am really George Clooney.


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## Earl Weiss (May 11, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Btw Mr Weiss, your claim that ITF TKD strikes/kicks are those found in a patterns cannot be true. TKD strikes/kicks part of the curriculum but *absent* from ITF patterns include: Jumping back kick, jumping side kick, Hook kick, Tornado etc. Plenty of combat techniques missing from patterns.



Don't know what the above post means. Did you mean to say I calimed then All TKD techniques are contained in patterns?   Whatever the above post means, I don't believe I made any such claim and if you can point me to a post where you think I made such a claim please let me know and I will attempt to clarify.

As a correction,  the patterns do contain Jump Back Kick, Jump Side Kick, reverse Hook Kick.  The term "Tornado Kick" is not a Chang Hon name and means different things in different systems so I cannot address this.


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## Laplace_demon (May 11, 2015)

Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:


Doesn't look very ITF to me.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Doesn't look very ITF to me.





Gnarlie said:


> Doesn't look very ITF to me.



ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.



And yet the motion in that video looks nothing like ITF Taekwon-Do.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> And yet the motion in that video looks nothing like ITF Taekwon-Do.



Because large parts of the clip is NOT striking. One part is.


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Because large parts of the clip is NOT striking. One part is.



No, because none of what is in the video looks anything like ITF Taekwon-Do. Striking or otherwise, the two are completely different. Sequences of movements may be similar but the way of moving is different.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> No, because none of what is in the video looks anything like ITF Taekwon-Do. Striking or otherwise, the two are completely different. Sequences of movements may be similar but the way of moving is different.



Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.


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## Gnarlie (May 12, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.



No.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Then I don't know what you are talking about. I have some pretty good insight as to the historical time line of ITF Taekwondo, and according to some sources within my club,  this larger emphasis on hand techniques that we are seeing right now is pretty new. We had the Karate strikes, with TKDoins kicking for most of the time in tournaments ( I submit ITFers still kick 80-90% of the time today in sparring, but it was even more dominant earlier. Emphasis nowdays is at most 60% kicking in the dojang. But like I said, I don't  concider certain boxining punches trained for self defence (again admission of art inferiority) or for competition (I thought we were traditional??) to be TKD strikes per se.


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## TrueJim (May 12, 2015)

This is Chung Do Kwan (Won Kuk Lee via Funakoshi Gichin) in 1956. I think most folks here have seen this before. To my eye, I'm not even sure this looks like what Opeloski is doing, stylistically. But this should be about as close to Shotokan as we can get from Korean martial arts, no? Maybe it's that these guys aren't performing at the same level as Opeloski, or maybe Shotokan itself has evolved a lot since then.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> This is Chung Do Kwan (Won Kuk Lee via Funakoshi Gichin) in 1956. I think most folks here have seen this before. To my eye, I'm not even sure this looks like what Opeloski is doing, stylistically. But this should be about as close to Shotokan as we can get from Korean martial arts, no? Maybe it's that these guys aren't performing at the same level as Opeloski, or maybe Shotokan itself has evolved a lot since then.



I don't think you can base anything of that clip. Chois TKD certainly evolved, with TKDoins fighting  radically different from Shotokan karatekas. Different skills and weaknesses. That being said, I don't think the actual arsenal in the striking department is different. To put it very simplisticly, the kicks were a great area of focus and TKD kinda developed it's own identity from what had already been a part of Shotokan but not emphasised. That is the diplomatic way of describing the course of events.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Karatekas from the 50s fought just as roboticly.


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## Dirty Dog (May 12, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:



Frankly, I'll believe he's your father when he tells me so himself.
I don't how that rates as far as Shotokan goes, but it's not ITF striking by any stretch of the imagination. I understand that, given your extremely limited training, it might all look the same to you, but it really isn't.


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## Laplace_demon (May 12, 2015)

Of course not. I mean, I have never been taught *knife hand strike* and *Tsuki* (straight punch) in my ITF class.


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## RTKDCMB (May 13, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.


It looks nothing like non sine wave TKD either.


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## Earl Weiss (May 13, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.



Since  the book explicitly lists the Shorin and Shorei styles as "TKD" and even includes  Shorin and Shorei patterns what intense  research or experience lead  to your "discovery"?


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## Laplace_demon (May 13, 2015)

Earl Weiss said:


> Since  the book explicitly lists the Shorin and Shorei styles as "TKD" and even includes  Shorin and Shorei patterns what intense  research or experience lead  to your "discovery"?



I just stated that the Choi encyklopedia is basically Korean Shotokan.it's quite evident that the influence (rip off) is from a "hard" Karate style, and not hard/soft or soft style. It's FROM Shotokan. That' what Choi trained.


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## TrueJim (May 13, 2015)

Laplace_demon said:


> I just stated that the Choi encyklopedia is basically Korean Shotokan.it's quite evident that the influence (rip off) is from a "hard" Karate style, and not hard/soft or soft style. It's FROM Shotokan. That' what Choi trained.



I don't understand why you use the phrase "rip off". It's as if you're intentionally trying to provoke people. There's nothing "stolen" when one martial art splits from another. The phrase "rip off" is neither accurate, nor descriptive, nor helpful. 

At this point, I have to believe that you're just intentionally trolling. 

Ultimately, as I understand it, Jhoon Rhee, ATA, ITF, and GTF styles of taekwondo all have Shotokan in their heritage.


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## Laplace_demon (May 13, 2015)

I am so sorry. The striking of ITF looks nothing like Shotokan. Here is General Chois favourite student, Grand Master Rhee. He will show you all the ITF striking.

At 0:23







O, wait...


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## Dirty Dog (May 13, 2015)

I know it's probably too subtle for the eyes of a beginner, but any more advanced student will point out things like how diffeerntly the knifehand strikes are done in your two videos. In the one done by the man you claim is your mythical daddy, the fingers are spread. I  this one, they are together. 
I don't really expect you to understand why that is a significant difference.


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## Laplace_demon (May 13, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I know it's probably too subtle for the eyes of a beginner, but any more advanced student will point out things like how diffeerntly the knifehand strikes are done in your two videos. In the one done by the man you claim is your mythical daddy, the fingers are spread. I  this one, they are together.
> I don't really expect you to understand why that is a significant difference.



Fingers are together in his Compendium, regarding Knife hand strike. My fingers are together too. Sorry, try again. Maybe he didn't demonstrate Knife hand strike in that particular clip.


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## Earl Weiss (May 14, 2015)

TrueJim said:


> Ultimately, as I understand it, Jhoon Rhee, ATA, ITF, and GTF styles of taekwondo all have Shotokan in their heritage.




Jhoon Rhee was a Chung Do Kwan product, and for a time was with the ITF and adopted the ITF Patterns. ATA Founder HU Lee was a Chung Do Kwan product, for a Time was an ITF affiliate using the Chang Hon Patterns.  So the link is undeniable. General Choi trained in Shotokan, so the Link is undeniable. GTF founder  Park Jung Tae was an ITF  head instructor and principal instructo introducing TKD to NK, so that link is undeniable as well.


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