# Historically or traditionally Christian martial arts



## Daniel Sullivan

I do not know if this is the right place to post this, so if not, I request that the mods move it to the correct category.

For starters, I would like to open with my position that I generally do not like the idea of categorizing a martial art by religion.  It seems to be only "Christian martial artists" who do this.  I am not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; not the topic of this thread. 

But as the OP, I do not generally categorize an art in that fashion.

Now that that is out of the way, here is the topic:
I see a *lot* of "Christian" martial arts that are simply karate or some other Asian martial art that is traditionally associated with with an Asian religion or philosophy (such as Shinto, Buddhism, or Zen) with that religion or philosophy being replaced by Christianity and then marketed as "Christian martial arts."

But are there any martial arts that have either an inherently Christian background for cultural reasons, or are there any martial arts that began with Chrisitan spirituality as a core part of the art from the outset (as opposed to a Christianized version of an existing art)?  Where Christian spirituality is traditionally and/or historically associated with the art?

Personally, I do not know of any off the top of my head.  

Daniel


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## Chris Parker

I suppose the closest I can think of would be the Knight's Templar, originally known as The Poor Knight's Of The Temple Of Solomon. According to the stories, they started as a small band of nine older French Knights who pledged to protect pilgrims on their journey to the Holy Land in the Crusades. As part of their origin, the Knights gave up their lands and holdings in order to commit to the protection of the Road to Jerusalem, which gave rise to some classic Templar iconography such as two knights riding on one horse.

When they reached the Holy Land, they were given lodgings in the Temple Mount, and there are various stories of them stemming from that. But the idea of the Temple Knights was that they were pretty much part monk, part medieval warrior. They were some of the original Christian Warriors, so there practices would be considered Christian martial arts, I suppose. The only thing that stops it being a definate candidate is that their methods (or those particular to the Knights Templar) have been lost to time (there are groups who study older methods of Western combat, so that would probably be the closest).

Of course, the Knights Templar rose in power and influence until the were betrayed and each of their establishments were raided, with many Templars being arrested or killed, and their possessions forfeited. This happened on October, Friday 13th, 1307, and is thought to be one possible reason for the superstition surrounding Friday the 13th. The turning on the Knights Templar happened for a number of reasons, and there were various stories spread to garner public support for their overthrow. These include the Temple Knights being Satan worshippers, pagans, heathens, and more. Another accusation was that they were closet-Muslims. This has some veracity, as there are some very Muslim-influenced aspects to the iconography of the Templars, taken from sects such as Sufism. This iconography still exists in groups such as the Freemasons. So if they were closet Muslims, that may rule them out here...


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## bluekey88

That would be my take...western weaaons based MA.  Really, I don't see such a close tie between Christianity and martial arts as I do say with Easten/Asian religions/philophies and MA's.  Not sure why that is though.

Peace,
Erik


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## Daniel Sullivan

Chris Parker said:


> I suppose the closest I can think of would be the Knight's Templar, originally known as The Poor Knight's Of The Temple Of Solomon. According to the stories, they started as a small band of nine older French Knights who pledged to protect pilgrims on their journey to the Holy Land in the Crusades. As part of their origin, the Knights gave up their lands and holdings in order to commit to the protection of the Road to Jerusalem, which gave rise to some classic Templar iconography such as two knights riding on one horse.
> 
> When they reached the Holy Land, they were given lodgings in the Temple Mount, and there are various stories of them stemming from that. But the idea of the Temple Knights was that they were pretty much part monk, part medieval warrior. They were some of the original Christian Warriors, so there practices would be considered Christian martial arts, I suppose. The only thing that stops it being a definate candidate is that their methods (or those particular to the Knights Templar) have been lost to time (there are groups who study older methods of Western combat, so that would probably be the closest).
> 
> Of course, the Knights Templar rose in power and influence until the were betrayed and each of their establishments were raided, with many Templars being arrested or killed, and their possessions forfeited. This happened on October, Friday 13th, 1307, and is thought to be one possible reason for the superstition surrounding Friday the 13th. The turning on the Knights Templar happened for a number of reasons, and there were various stories spread to garner public support for their overthrow. These include the Temple Knights being Satan worshippers, pagans, heathens, and more. Another accusation was that they were closet-Muslims. This has some veracity, as there are some very Muslim-influenced aspects to the iconography of the Templars, taken from sects such as Sufism. This iconography still exists in groups such as the Freemasons. So if they were closet Muslims, that may rule them out here...


 
Of course the other question of the Templars would be whether or not they had a specific systematized martial art or if they simply were using the same Western martial conventions that other knights used. As you pointed out, the answer to that question is lost, though I am inclined to think the latter.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

bluekey88 said:


> That would be my take...western weaaons based MA. Really, I don't see such a close tie between Christianity and martial arts as I do say with Easten/Asian religions/philophies and MA's. Not sure why that is though.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik


I think that in general, western culture compartmentalizes things differently than eastern cultures.  Spirituality is something that you believe, while martial arts are just skills that are useful for defeating an enemy.

Daniel


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## mwd0818

None that I know of, unless some fighting method was developed to defend against lions in Rome??  

Honestly, having studied religion and philosophy around the world, I see why some people replace some ideals and develop a "Christian Martial Art."

First, it's easy to add in the spiritual components of training.  It can be difficult to really verbalize, but the raw component of fighting for one's survival integrates well with philosophical musings and spirituality.  The exploration of combat becomes an exploration of the self.  Add to that the idea of detachment (critical in Buddhist thought) and you develop the idea of mu-shin (no-mind).  Arriving at this state without thought and you become, in Western terms, "in the zone."  These are all parts of advanced martial training.

Second, it's easy to replace Buddhism or Shinto or Taoist thought with ideals from other religious schools.  The reason?  There are very few religions or world philosophies that truly contradict each other with respect to behavior and thought.  The *WHY* behind things might be different, the terms may be different, but often the *WHAT* and the *HOW* are the same.  Christians are taught compassion and understanding as an expression of Godly love and following Jesus.  Buddhists are taught compassion and understanding as a way to end suffering and embrace their natural Buddha-self and fulfill the bodhisattva ideals.  The *WHY* is indeed different (Jesus versus Bodhisattva), but the *WHAT* (compassion and understanding) are the same.  Traditional Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, Taoism, etc.) all are generally pretty malleable systems that can easily fit in with traditional Western religions.  I think that is why you see "Christian Martial Arts" that aren't originally Christian or from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset at all, but rather ports of Eastern religions and philosophies.

Additional points:

One also sees the development of "Christian Martial Arts" as a way to justify practicing an art that has non-Christian philosophies and spirituality to it.  Some people find this a problem with their own faith, so if it can be altered to fit Christian ideals, then it is allowed to be practiced.  If it can't, it is to be shunned as taking away from Christian pursuits at best, and at worst, it is considered an affront to Christianity.

Second (comical note) - there is no way historically speaking for their to be a Judeo-Christian martial art.  Jews throughout history have been the victim of invasions, takeovers, slavery and just generally been treated as the red-headed stepchild of indigenous peoples.  At no point in history have the Jews been able to establish themselves as holders of a consistent country (had to have the rest of the Western world help them to get Israel, and we all have seen what happens there!).  Thus, any martial art system truly from Judeo-Christian traditions is obviously worthless and ineffective.


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## Chris Parker

Yep, I feel the same. However, it could be argued that each different Japanese sword system is basically the same as each other, as they all use similarly designed weapons (single edge, curved etc), similar actions (cut straight down, diagonally, thrust etc), and similar tactics (fake and enter, jam and re-direct, then counter cut, evasive cutting etc). But each different group approached the training in their own way, with their own influences, giving rise to differences between the various classical Ryuha.

In regard to the Temple Knights, they were a group that kept very much to themselves, and in order to gain acceptance to the group, certain requirements needed to be met. This leads me to believe that the Templars trained primarily within their own groups, which would naturally lead to certain training habits and tactics, which we would most likely regard as a separate martial art if it survived past it's usefulness on the battlefield and continued to be taught and developed in peacetime (as this is how the majority of Koryu systems came to be what we know them as today).

Oh, and we should also include groups such as Constantine's forces. Basically a Roman Army, when Constantine converted to Christianity (after his mother came into contact with a number of relics, most famously nails and pieces of the True Cross, and the Spear Of Christ), the Christian symbols were adopted. The spear was said to be carried into battle at all times, and while it was there, the Army of Constantine was considered to be unbeatable. This was attributed to the Christian God protecting the soldiers, so that could make their training a version of Christian martial arts as well, but we will of course have the same question as with the Templars.


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## Blindside

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and we should also include groups such as Constantine's forces. Basically a Roman Army, when Constantine converted to Christianity (after his mother came into contact with a number of relics, most famously nails and pieces of the True Cross, and the Spear Of Christ), the Christian symbols were adopted. The spear was said to be carried into battle at all times, and while it was there, the Army of Constantine was considered to be unbeatable. This was attributed to the Christian God protecting the soldiers, so that could make their training a version of Christian martial arts as well, but we will of course have the same question as with the Templars.


 
I think you would have to consider any army that followed Constantine to be a mixture of faiths, whatever the faith of Constatine.  The intentional melding of the cult of Mithras with the Christian traditions by Constatine is often seen as a way of making Christianity acceptable to the military because of the at this point in history the worship of Mithras was widespread in the armies.  

And if we were going to use Constantine's armies as an example, it would kinda suck to have the first "Christian martial art" to be involved with the first intra-Christian persecution.


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## mwd0818

Blindside said:


> And if we were going to use Constantine's armies as an example, it would kinda suck to have the first "Christian martial art" to be involved with the first intra-Christian persecution.



But would probably be most accurate . . .


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## thardey

Check out Gerard Thibault's treatise on fencing.

I'll have to paraphrase from memory, but the basic idea is that during the Renaissance, philosophers, theologians, and scientists began adopting some Platonic ideas into their philosophy. A current example would be the search for Phi, or the "perfect ratio" described in the "Da Vinci Code." 

The idea was that there was a sacred geometry, partially based on nature, including the human proportions, and that to understand God, you had to understand the mysteries of geometry.

It may sound totally hokey, but many advances in music theory, architecture, and math came out of this pursuit.

Fencing was a part of it. The more you were supposedly "in tune" with this sacred geometry, the more righteous you were, and the more able to accomplish what you wanted -- to defend yourself. Spiritually speaking, dueling was about finding "truth" both literally and spiritually.

Of course, this was an obscure branch Christianity that was lost over time, and very few Christians know about it. But many of the ideas from this period are still visible in art, Catholic symbolism, the shape and proportions of cathedrals. There may even be some cross-over between some of the religious rituals, but I haven't dug into it that far.

So, I guess I would classify it as a Catholic-based martial art, which is, of course also Christian. But today, the religion is divorced from the art. (possible due to the idea that fencing is almost entirely done for sport these days.)

I'm sure Tibault wasn't the only fencing master who did this, but it is the most obvious from his writings that he was tying the ideas together into one concept.


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## Blindside

It is a hard thing to identify a martial tradition with a particular religion in the west. Without getting into the whole "are Catholics Christians argument," certainly the militaries of Charlemagne or imperial Spain could fall under the same criteria as groups with at least a partial purpose of converting others to the cross.


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## thardey

For more information, compare the ideas in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_geometry

with this fencing plate from Thibault's manual, showing proportions and footwork. (His own version of the vetruvian man.)







Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_thibault


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## Daniel Sullivan

Blindside said:


> It is a hard thing to identify a martial tradition with a particular religion in the west. Without getting into the whole "are Catholics Christians argument," certainly the militaries of Charlemagne or imperial Spain could fall under the same criteria as groups with at least a partial purpose of converting others to the cross.


For the purposes of this discussion, I am using the term 'Christian' to be very inclusive.  That would include (but not necesarilly be limited to) the various Catholic sects (there are more than one), Protestant denomenations (not sure where Quakers, Shakers, and Amish fit in, but them too), non-denominational, and Evangelicals.  

By historically and traditionally, I mean arts that have a degree of antiquity or that are modern, but that began as unique arts with Christian spirituality as their base.

By unique, I mean a fresh system with its own forms (if any) and curriculum.  The art may share techniques with other arts, but simply is categorized separately them (such as how Aikido and Hapkido share techniques with and are descended from Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, but neither are DRAJ and each is considered a separate art from the other).

Daniel


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## Tez3

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the purposes of this discussion, I am using the term 'Christian' to be very inclusive. That would include (but not necesarilly be limited to) the various Catholic sects (there are more than one), Protestant denomenations (not sure where Quakers, Shakers, and Amish fit in, but them too), non-denominational, and Evangelicals.
> 
> By historically and traditionally, I mean arts that have a degree of antiquity or that are modern, but that began as unique arts with Christian spirituality as their base.
> 
> By unique, I mean a fresh system with its own forms (if any) and curriculum. The art may share techniques with other arts, but simply is categorized separately them (such as how Aikido and Hapkido share techniques with and are descended from Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu, but neither are DRAJ and each is considered a separate art from the other).
> 
> Daniel


 
I know little about Christian traditions though I do know Quakers are pacifists and don't fight not even in wars though they are courageous in the non combatant works they do, ie medics, ambulance drivers etc.

Does Fiore dei Liberi's l'arte dell armizare fit the bill at all? I think if there is a 'Christian' martial art it would probably be a Spanish or Italian one?

Very interesting discussion as western arts are often overlooked by westerners assuming that home grown arts are inferior to eastern ones.


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## morph4me

I think that the idea of Christian martial arts is more of the application of the art using christian ideals than and actual art with it's orgins in christianity. I admit that I don't know what tha means exactly, but there are some members here who can explain it.


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## Tez3

mwd0818 said:


> None that I know of, unless some fighting method was developed to defend against lions in Rome??
> 
> Honestly, having studied religion and philosophy around the world, I see why some people replace some ideals and develop a "Christian Martial Art."
> 
> First, it's easy to add in the spiritual components of training. It can be difficult to really verbalize, but the raw component of fighting for one's survival integrates well with philosophical musings and spirituality. The exploration of combat becomes an exploration of the self. Add to that the idea of detachment (critical in Buddhist thought) and you develop the idea of mu-shin (no-mind). Arriving at this state without thought and you become, in Western terms, "in the zone." These are all parts of advanced martial training.
> 
> Second, it's easy to replace Buddhism or Shinto or Taoist thought with ideals from other religious schools. The reason? There are very few religions or world philosophies that truly contradict each other with respect to behavior and thought. The *WHY* behind things might be different, the terms may be different, but often the *WHAT* and the *HOW* are the same. Christians are taught compassion and understanding as an expression of Godly love and following Jesus. Buddhists are taught compassion and understanding as a way to end suffering and embrace their natural Buddha-self and fulfill the bodhisattva ideals. The *WHY* is indeed different (Jesus versus Bodhisattva), but the *WHAT* (compassion and understanding) are the same. Traditional Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, Taoism, etc.) all are generally pretty malleable systems that can easily fit in with traditional Western religions. I think that is why you see "Christian Martial Arts" that aren't originally Christian or from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset at all, but rather ports of Eastern religions and philosophies.
> 
> Additional points:
> 
> One also sees the development of "Christian Martial Arts" as a way to justify practicing an art that has non-Christian philosophies and spirituality to it. Some people find this a problem with their own faith, so if it can be altered to fit Christian ideals, then it is allowed to be practiced. If it can't, it is to be shunned as taking away from Christian pursuits at best, and at worst, it is considered an affront to Christianity.
> 
> *Second (comical note) - there is no way historically speaking for their to be a Judeo-Christian martial art. Jews throughout history have been the victim of invasions, takeovers, slavery and just generally been treated as the red-headed stepchild of indigenous peoples. At no point in history have the Jews been able to establish themselves as holders of a consistent country (had to have the rest of the Western world help them to get Israel, and we all have seen what happens there!). Thus, any martial art system truly from Judeo-Christian traditions is obviously worthless and ineffective. *




Oh really? have a look at Masada, Zealots, Maccabees, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters Haganah, Shin Bet, me when very annoyed. We can fight you know!Holding a country has nothing to do with doing a martial art, if it were Okinawa wouldn't be known for much.


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## Xue Sheng

Would the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch count as a Christian martial art 


sorry couldn't resist, I will go now


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## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> Would the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch count as a Christian martial art
> 
> 
> sorry couldn't resist, I will go now


 
:roflmao:


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## Omar B

Turning the other cheek?  Getting eaten by the lion?


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## David43515

Some of the Northern Filipino styles are very heavily influenced by Catholicism. Not the fighting theories themselves, but many use religious prayers and charms as protective magic. Also some of the exersises are named after certain saints.


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## Hawke

Raul Ries
http://www.sansoodiamondbar.com/raul.php

Pastor Ries used to give Bible lessons after the workouts for people that may be interested in Christianity. 

Chuck Norris
http://www.chucknorris.com/html/christian.aspx

Mr. Norris gives his testimony for the Martial Arts for Christ event in Southern California.

Both these men use their skills to promote their faith.  

I can see certain religions linked with certain martial art styles, but I do not link Christianity with any of the mainstream arts.

I think anyone regardless of their religion can be kind, compassionate, generous and understanding.


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## Carol

I don't think its a fair comparison, really.  This is an area where the traditional west and traditional east have a deep divide.  In the East, religion defines so much more than where you go on the Sabbath, how you pray, what holidays you celebrate, or which house of worship you attend.  

In Asian countries, religion affects speech, culture, dress, food, even what games kids play when growing up.  In the west we have time-of-day greetings (Good morning, good evening, good night) but in the East, interaction is based on what religion you are or what religion the other person is.   A Sikh would greet another person with "Sat Sree Akaal"  A Hindu would return the sentiment with "Namaste".  A person's rights under the Indian constitution are determined by which religion they are.  We don't traditionally have spiritual influences to that level in the western world.

Eastern cultures are not taught in detail in the U.S. schools, and I think some of the concern (that is often voiced by Christians) comes from a desire to see clean dividing lines between spiritual and secular practice but those dividing lines simply aren't there.  To blur the line even further, some practices that have been added to the martial arts do have some religious meaning.  Or, they once had religious meaning but are seen more as a common social practice.  Examples off the top of my head are Chinese traditions of bowing to one's ancestors or paying respects to a Kamidama or other shrine.

Asia often had a firmly set vertical caste/class system.  One would often go about their day predominantly in contact with other people of one's own caste, and this brought rise to social cultures that often intermingle with religion.  We haven't seen that to the same degree in the west.   Even in areas where class distinctions were present (peerage, for example) the distinctions were not as strong as those seen in Asia. :asian:


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## mwd0818

Tez3 said:


> [/B]
> 
> Oh really? have a look at Masada, Zealots, Maccabees, the Warsaw Ghetto fighters Haganah, Shin Bet, me when very annoyed. We can fight you know!Holding a country has nothing to do with doing a martial art, if it were Okinawa wouldn't be known for much.



Okinawan martial arts are also worthless and ineffective, as well as Korean.  The only martial arts to be completely respected are those from China then!  While there have been a multitude of changes in dynastic leadership, have generally maintained some national consistency over the last two thousand years.

If you don't study Shaolin, you are wasting your time.

Like me for example, I study Shaolin Kempo . . . which clearly comes from . . . .

oh . . . 

wait . . . 

Kempo = Hawaii = Okinawa

There's Shaolin Kung-fu in it though, right?

No?

Um . . . 

Well, my art is the exception.  The rest are worthless . . .


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## blindsage

I've been curious about and reading up on Systema and, apparently, it's philosophy is very tied into the Russian Orthodox Church:



> As the roots of the Russian Systema are in the Russian Orthodox Christian faith, the belief is that everything that happens to us, good or bad, has only one ultimate purpose. That is to create the best possible conditions for each person to understand himself. Proper training in the Russian Systema carries the same objective &#8211; to put every participant into the best possible setting for him to realize as much about himself as he is able to handle at any given moment.


from http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=philosophy


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## Joab

I don 't think there are any Christian martial arts. In fact, Christians didn't serve in the military for the first three centuries of Christianity, pacifists would say because they were pacifists, non pacifists would say because they would have had to acknowledge Caesar as Lord, something no Christian can do. Really, Christianity focuses more on spiritual warfare than physical, in the first century that is quite evident. Of course the Church changed a lot after Constantine became a Christian and than Christianity became the state religion of Rome later on, but during the first three centuries you really won't find any martial tradition in Christianity. As the Apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians 6:12: "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realm" New International Version.


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## girlbug2

Hmmm, maybe medival christian monks developed a staff fighting system, like Friar Tuck in Robin Hood?


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## Bill Mattocks

Early Western society was Christian.  Therefore, religious did not have to defend their monasteries militarily from the depredations of the Crown on an ongoing basis (not to day it did not happen, it just wasn't the norm). 

Early Eastern society was not Buddhist.  The Chinese Buddhist religious did indeed have to defend their monasteries militarily from the depredations of the Warlord-du-jour quite often.

In other words, in the West, Christianity was part of the power structure.  In the East, Buddhism was not.

In addition, if my poor understanding of CMA history is correct, the first use of 'kung fu' was intended as exercise for monks who were unhealthy due to lack of physical activity and self-defense grew from that.  We do not have that tradition in the West.

FYI, there were many chivalric christian (Catholic) orders in ancient times.  The Templars were the first and most famous, but the Order of St. John (Hospitalers, now known as the Knights of Malta), and the Teutonic Knights were some of them.  The UK has several still in existance.  However, as they were primarily miltary in nature, their skills are those of the military, not home-grown as far as I know.


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## Knives

Interesting article here.  This article uses biblical verses to dissuade Christians from martial arts since there is a conflict in philosophy.  That said, can we gather that it's pretty much saying no martial arts exist/existed with Christianity at its core?  Unless it's being in particular to Karate.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Knives said:


> Interesting article here. This article uses biblical verses to dissuade Christians from martial arts since there is a conflict in philosophy.


I have seen many such articles and I generally find the authors ignorant.  For one, martial arts is such a general term that it would include things such as western sport fencing, something that no Christian would have any problem with on a philosophical level.  Not to mention that some of the prominent Biblical personages were well versed in the "martial" arts of their day, David being a prime example.

Second, most dojos, at least in the states, teach a physical class.  People go to martial arts class to get into shape and to learn to defend themselves.  They generally do not get their spirituality at the dojo.

Lastly, I always find it weird that there is this general assumption that Christians are simply going to jump ship at the first opportunity if they go anywhere near anything that is not specifically Christian in origin.



Knives said:


> That said, can we gather that it's pretty much saying no martial arts exist/existed with Christianity at its core?


Western martial traditions certainly included a great deal of Christian thought at one point, as Christianity was part of the power structure, as Bill pointed out.  

I had rather thought that perhaps somebody had come up with a modern (less than 100 years old) martial system as a response to 'Zen Buddhism' rooted arts (Zen Buddhism in particular seems to be a major concern) that was not specifically karate, aikido, or anything else, but it seems that Christian martial arts all coopt existing martial arts and replace the spiritual aspect (if any) with Christianity.



Knives said:


> Unless it's being in particular to Karate.


Generally, such articles have Asian martial arts in mind, be it karate, aikido, or any of the styles of kung fu.  For the most part, such authors perceive anything that involves a gi and/or hanga/kanji or hangul being 'karate' though given that such individuals are part of the 'general public', that is hardly surprising.

Daniel


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## Carol

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had rather thought that perhaps somebody had come up with a modern (less than 100 years old) martial system as a response to 'Zen Buddhism' rooted arts (Zen Buddhism in particular seems to be a major concern) that was not specifically karate, aikido, or anything else, but it seems that Christian martial arts all coopt existing martial arts and replace the spiritual aspect (if any) with Christianity.



The most significant martial art from the 20th century Western/Christian world is riflery and other forms of firearms marksmanship.  Rather than that being a Christian martial art, it was an art dominated people that happened to be Christian or from a Christian heritage, but use of them has not been limited to people that are Christian.


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## Xue Sheng

Daniel Sullivan said:


> II had rather thought that perhaps somebody had come up with a modern (less than 100 years old) martial system as a response to 'Zen Buddhism' rooted arts (Zen Buddhism in particular seems to be a major concern) that was not specifically karate, aikido, or anything else, but it seems that Christian martial arts all coopt existing martial arts and replace the spiritual aspect (if any) with Christianity.


 
Somebody has come up with a modern (less than 100 years old) martial system, not necessarily in response to 'Zen Buddhism' rooted arts (some are rooted in Taoism and Shinto by the way) but it is not Christian either. It atheistic and called Sanda (Sanshou) Modern CMA originally for the Chinese military under Mao and most certainly having no religious affiliation



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Generally, such articles have Asian martial arts in mind, be it karate, aikido, or any of the styles of kung fu. For the most part, such authors perceive anything that involves a gi and/or hanga/kanji or hangul being 'karate' though given that such individuals are part of the 'general public', that is hardly surprising.
> 
> Daniel


 
Another problem with such articles is the term "Spirit" Generally it has nothing to do with spirituality in East Asia but continually gets associated with it in the west due to a rather large lack of understanding of the language and culture


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## Daniel Sullivan

Xue Sheng said:


> Another problem with such articles is the term "Spirit" Generally it has nothing to do with spirituality in East Asia but continually gets associated with it in the west due to a rather large lack of understanding of the language and culture


Yes, and this underscores my opinion that authors of such articles are generally ignorant regarding the martial arts.  

Daniel


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## Carol

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, and this underscores my opinion that authors of such articles are generally ignorant regarding the martial arts.
> 
> Daniel



And unfortunately many are ignorant of other cultures in general.  

The Gospel according to St. John begins with a quote that many Christians know well.  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (KJV I think...)

If I am recalling correctly most Chinese Protestant churches use a translation called the Union Version, that was done in the early 1900s.

If one looks at the Union Version of same verse in the St. John, the verse reads "In the beginning was the Tao And the Tao was with God and the Tao was God. Tao was with God in the beginning."

Not quite so foreign in that context...


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## Errant108

Despite popular opinion, the Asian martial arts are nowhere near as intertwined with Eastern religions as many Westerners (and some Asians) would like to believe.

For some reason, we are attracted to the idea of a spiritual warrior, a Jedi.  I'm no exception to this, as I write this post from my office in a Buddhist temple outside Baltimore, Maryland.

It is easy for Westerners to pick out the "religious" influences in foreign arts because they are precisely that.  Foreign.  In reality, of the top of my head, I can count on one hand the Asian martial arts that are INHERENTLY tied with religious practice.

"But what about religious rituals that practitioners engage in?"

You mean boxers crossing themselves before they get in the ring?

"But what about all the Confucian class structure & bowing?"

My German-American father taught me to shake hands, take off my hat in doors, and address people as sir or ma'am.  My momma taught me to hold doors for ladies.

Research where those traditions come from, and get back to me on cultural influences on behavior.

"But what about the martial arts that developed out of Zen/Daoist/etc philosophy?"

I learned how to do a crucifix in high school wrestling.

At a Catholic Youth Organization.

In the church gymnasium.

In short, people often grasp on to external BS associated with the arts, and miss the entire point of training in combative disciplines.  That results in delusion and stagnant thinking.  They turn their art into a cult.

Oh, and Bodhidharma didn't invent anything as far as kung fu is concerned.


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## Xue Sheng

Errant108 said:


> Oh, and Bodhidharma didn't invent anything as far as kung fu is concerned.


 
Neither did Zhang San Feng


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## Daniel Sullivan

Errant108 said:


> For some reason, we are attracted to the idea of a spiritual warrior, a Jedi. I'm no exception to this, as I write this post from my office in a Buddhist temple outside Baltimore, Maryland.


Well greetings, fellow Marylander!

Daniel


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## blackxpress

Let me begin by pointing out that I am a Presbyterian (PCUSA) minister.  Most people would consider me quite liberal so my theological understanding is radically different than the neo-evangelical tradition that drives the impulse to "Christianize" things like martial arts.  Being a pluralist and a progressive myself I'm always very suspicious of dojos that bill themselves as "Christian" dojos.  I don't care much for fundamentalism and go to the dojo to train, not to be indoctrinated into fundamentalist pseudo-theology.  

For that matter, I'm not real crazy about things like the Christian Yellow Pages and the whole idea that Christians should only patronize "Christian" businesses.  I recently went to a new eye doctor.  Unbeknownst to me, he is listed in "The Christian Blue Pages."  When he found out I'm a minister he asked me if I chose him because he's a Christian.  I said, "No, I chose you because you're on my insurance company's preferred providers list."

As for martial arts, most Church historians will tell you that the earliest Christians were pacifists.  It was not until Constantine's Edict of Milan in 313 CE that Christians began to abandon the ideals of pacifism.  There is no traditionally Christian martial art that I am aware of unless you consider soldiering a martial art.  I myself have strong pacifist tendencies, which leads to the obvious question.  What the hell is a pacifist like me doing training in a karate dojo?

A good question for which I don't have a ready answer.  I've been married to a Korean woman for 30 yrs and have always had a healthy interest in all things eastern.  So here I am, married to a Korean and studying a Japanese art.  Go figure.  

I started out in Wado Ryu.  One of the things that drew me to Wado was Ohtsuka Sensei's philosophy vis a vis martial arts as a way of peace.  It's hard to explain but I'm a lot more peaceful today than I ever was before I started training.  I did not take up karate so that I could learn how to beat people up.  I told my first Sensei I wanted to train to improve me physical fitness and mental focus and I am more physically and mentally fit today than I ever was before.  Still, I guess I am a bit conflicted.  I'm not sure Jesus would approve.  Somehow I can't picture Him taking somebody out with a mawashi geri but what can I say?  I love karate.

These days I train in Shito-ryu (long story).  We're a little more fight oriented than the Wado school where I used to train but I still think there's an element of peacefulness in our training.  I'm not sure you can ever fully separate karate from its Taoist and Buddhist underpinnings and I'm O.K. with that.  I'm not averse to practicing a little Zen myself and I don't see any real conflict between that and my Christian faith.  

Bottom line:  I don't go to the dojo to worship or to have a Bible study.  I go there to train.  I spend enough time in church without having to Christianize my martial arts training.  We begin each class in the traditional way, sitting Zazen and meditating, not praying a Christian prayer in Jesus' name.  I'm O.K. with that too.  I feel very peaceful and close to God as I meditate in Zazen.  I don't see anything wrong with that. And, if I'm not mistaken, Ohtsuka Sensei believed that running kata was an intensely spiritual exercise.  Some of the more knowledgeable Wado guys can correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ohtsuka Sensei believed kata to be a form of meditation whereby one could move closer to Buddha mind.  I'm O.K. with that too and, frankly, don't think Jesus would have a problem with it either. 

Christian martial arts?  No, thanks.  Shito-ryu suits me just fine.


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## gardawamtu1

blackxpress said:


> I don't care much for fundamentalism and go to the dojo to train, not to be indoctrinated into fundamentalist pseudo-theology.
> 
> I spend enough time in church without having to Christianize my martial arts training.
> 
> Christian martial arts?  No, thanks.  Shito-ryu suits me just fine.



My sentiments exactly. I'm a seminary prof and ordained Baptist minister (not all of us are fundamentalist or neo-cons).  I lean towards pacifism, though I cannot say that I am purely pacifist.

I have heard of some churches hosting karate classes as part of their outreach.  I am actually disturbed by someone who has no conflict about learning techniques that could potentially maim or kill with some of Christ's teachings on peace. While I wrestle with this question, I do compartmentalize to an extent because the MA are the only thing that holds my interest when it comes to exercising.


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## Errant108

blackxpress said:


> I'm not sure you can ever fully separate karate from its Taoist and Buddhist underpinnings and I'm O.K. with that.



There are no Daoist or Buddhist underpinnings to karate.  No more than there are Catholic underpinings to Western boxing.  Even Itosu is on record as saying that karate practice does not derive from Confucianism, Daoism, or Buddhism.

What happens is that later on, people begin to bring their own personal views to martial arts practice.  A practitioner of Zen will certainly see the chance to use kata practice as a form of meditation.

Guess what?

Making tea, driving, even taking a dump can be seen as a form of meditation in Zen.  There is nothing unique about karate kata that makes it especially more Zen Buddhist than any other activity engaged in by human beings.

The martial arts are an integral part of the spiritual practice at my temple, along with sitting meditation, tea ceremony, etc.  It might shock you to know that there's a temple in Korea that practices soccer as a part of their spiritual practice, just like in "Shaolin Soccer".  Does this mean that soccer has Buddhist underpinings?

There is a difference between inherency and attribution.

If I punch you in the face, was it a Buddhist punch?

Hmmm...Zen teacher vs. Christian minister grudge match?  We could do it as a fundraisher;p

I'm absolutely fine with a Christian using karate or most other styles of martial arts to teach their religion, just as I'm fine with organizations like the Fellowship of Christian Athletes using any other sport to do so.

What I'm not fine with is doing it out of ignorance, and truthfully, racial hatred.  "We need to remove those heathen influences from those pagan Asians, but we sure do like their krotty!"

Irony:  The Korean Methodist church down the road has a Taekwondo program.  They don't seem to see the "pagan" influences in their own culture.


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## Errant108

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well greetings, fellow Marylander!
> 
> Daniel



Yo.

Given the nature of the discussion, and your location in MD, you may want to check this out.


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## Daniel Sullivan

blackxpress said:


> Let me begin by pointing out that I am a Presbyterian (PCUSA) minister. Most people would consider me quite liberal so my theological understanding is radically different than the neo-evangelical tradition that drives the impulse to "Christianize" things like martial arts. Being a pluralist and a progressive myself I'm always very suspicious of dojos that bill themselves as "Christian" dojos. I don't care much for fundamentalism and go to the dojo to train, not to be indoctrinated into fundamentalist pseudo-theology.
> 
> For that matter, I'm not real crazy about things like the Christian Yellow Pages and the whole idea that Christians should only patronize "Christian" businesses. I recently went to a new eye doctor. Unbeknownst to me, he is listed in "The Christian Blue Pages." When he found out I'm a minister he asked me if I chose him because he's a Christian. I said, "No, I chose you because you're on my insurance company's preferred providers list."


I view this trend as addressing a market that is largely unaddressed.  It does not bother me, but is also does not make me instantly want the product.

Also, I see one distict advantage to billing one's dojo as Christian: they can be as religious as they want, from opening with a prayer to using a Christian symbol in their school patch and they will not have to worry about turning away their non-Christian students, as there will not be any.  It does tend to shrink the market, but it also focuses the demographic target.

If it is done in a spirit of, 'we believe that martial arts should have a spiritual element, and ours just happens to be Christian' then I think that that is healthy.  If it is used as an evangelization tool, I think that it is a poor tool, as it will tend to turn away the very people that the school is trying to reach.

I also have a problem with martial arts being used as an evalngelization tool because generally, the staff are better in the evangelization department than they are in the martial art department.  Also, they generally divorce themselves from the larger community of whatever martial art they are practicing, which can be problematic as one moves to more advanced levels.  

Daniel


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## blackxpress

Errant108 said:


> There are no Daoist or Buddhist underpinnings to karate.  No more than there are Catholic underpinings to Western boxing.  Even Itosu is on record as saying that karate practice does not derive from Confucianism, Daoism, or Buddhism.




Sorry.  I guess "underpinnings" was the wrong term.  I wasn't trying to say that Karate derives from Eastern religions.  I certainly did not mean to imply that Karate is a "Buddhist" martial art.  I do think it safe to say that Eastern thought is far different from Western thought and that each, like any culture, has been heavily influenced by its religious traditions.  An Asian martial art (Karate, for example) is more than just a collection of fighting techniques.  There is also an underlying philosophy and an ethical code, both of which cannot help but have been influenced by the religious traditions of the culture that produced them.  Fair enough?


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## Errant108

Actually, not really.

Karate is no different from boxing or wrestling.

It's a set of physical skills designed to enable a person to survive hand-to-hand combat.

Everything else are things that we bring to karate.  They are not inherent in it.  There is no underlying philosophy in karate that isn't there in boxing.

Eastern thought is not that much different from Western thought.  That's also something we bring to the table.  The "underlying ethical code" is not inherent in karate either, any more than good sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct is inherent in fencing.  We just think they are, because karate is exotic to us.  The Confucian structure of karate is found everywhere else in Japanese society, and to a lesser degree, Okinawan society.

It's kind of heartbreaking for many Westerners who attach to ideas of fortune cookie fantasy, but karate, kung fu, all Asian martial arts, are inherently pure physical skills, designed to hurt, maim, and kill.  If you divorce them from that, you lie to yourself.

Karate is about breaking people.

What you do with that, however, is purely your own path.

To be a martial artist, you must be a fighter.  You may be more than a fighter, but you must at least be a fighter.


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## Xue Sheng

A big issue when talking eastern and western views is compartmentalization.

We, in the west, tend to compartmentalize things where in East Asia they do not everything is connected or all part of the same thing, there is Taoism and Buddhism and Confucianism in everything and that does not necessarily equate to anything spiritual. So to say it was would be kind of like saying the Pope breaths air so to breath air one is always being spiritual and Catholic

We see the Tao De Ching discussed as being important to Taijiquan and immediately go to it is a Taoist Martial Art and add to that all the Taoist religious stuff that goes with it and that is simply not true. We see Buddhist practicing Qi Gong and say Qi gong is spiritual and in the case of a monk sitting there doing Qi Gong it might be but in the case of a Chinese Doctor it likely is not and in the case of a martial artist it is not necessarily in anyway spiritual either.


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## blackxpress

Xue Sheng said:


> A big issue when talking eastern and western views is compartmentalization.
> 
> We, in the west, tend to compartmentalize things where in East Asia they do not everything is connected or all part of the same thing, there is Taoism and Buddhism and Confucianism in everything and that does not necessarily equate to anything spiritual.



Thank you.  That's what I was struggling to say in my last post.




> To be a martial artist, you must be a fighter.  You may be more than a fighter, but you must at least be a fighter.



Agreed.


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## Daniel Sullivan

mwd0818 said:


> None that I know of, unless some fighting method was developed to defend against lions in Rome??
> 
> Honestly, having studied religion and philosophy around the world, I see why some people replace some ideals and develop a "Christian Martial Art."
> 
> First, it's easy to add in the spiritual components of training. It can be difficult to really verbalize, but the raw component of fighting for one's survival integrates well with philosophical musings and spirituality. The exploration of combat becomes an exploration of the self. Add to that the idea of detachment (critical in Buddhist thought) and you develop the idea of mu-shin (no-mind). Arriving at this state without thought and you become, in Western terms, "in the zone." These are all parts of advanced martial training.
> 
> Second, it's easy to replace Buddhism or Shinto or Taoist thought with ideals from other religious schools. The reason? There are very few religions or world philosophies that truly contradict each other with respect to behavior and thought. The *WHY* behind things might be different, the terms may be different, but often the *WHAT* and the *HOW* are the same. Christians are taught compassion and understanding as an expression of Godly love and following Jesus. Buddhists are taught compassion and understanding as a way to end suffering and embrace their natural Buddha-self and fulfill the bodhisattva ideals. The *WHY* is indeed different (Jesus versus Bodhisattva), but the *WHAT* (compassion and understanding) are the same. Traditional Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Shinto, Zen, Taoism, etc.) all are generally pretty malleable systems that can easily fit in with traditional Western religions. I think that is why you see "Christian Martial Arts" that aren't originally Christian or from the Western Judeo-Christian mindset at all, but rather ports of Eastern religions and philosophies.
> 
> Additional points:
> 
> One also sees the development of "Christian Martial Arts" as a way to justify practicing an art that has non-Christian philosophies and spirituality to it. Some people find this a problem with their own faith, so if it can be altered to fit Christian ideals, then it is allowed to be practiced. If it can't, it is to be shunned as taking away from Christian pursuits at best, and at worst, it is considered an affront to Christianity.


I would say that the above is fairly accurate.



mwd0818 said:


> Second (comical note) - there is no way historically speaking for their to be a Judeo-Christian martial art.


By historically, I mean within the history of the art.  If a guy created an art called Christjutsu in 1970 and based every technique on some Bibical passage, then the art is historically a Christian art.  

Thus Taekwondo is less than a hundred years old.  It had no specifically Christian aspects to its philosophy at its inception.  The major organizations make no inclusion of specific Christian values in their tenets.  Thus if I start a "Christian TKD association", I am adding something that was not historically part of the art. 



mwd0818 said:


> Jews throughout history have been the victim of invasions, takeovers, slavery and just generally been treated as the red-headed stepchild of indigenous peoples. At no point in history have the Jews been able to establish themselves as holders of a consistent country (had to have the rest of the Western world help them to get Israel, and we all have seen what happens there!). Thus, any martial art system truly from Judeo-Christian traditions is obviously worthless and ineffective.


Methinks that you may not be correct on this assessment.  In the ancient world, I believe that Israel existed for a longer peroid of time than the US has been a soveriegn state.  And let us be realistic; we needed help from France.

I would say that Israel's past loss of sovereignty was more an issue of their foes having much a larger military force.  Israel was also usually one of many countries steamrolled by such powers as the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Phonecians, and the Romans.  This is a separate dynamic from the effectiveness of a martial art.

Daniel


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## mwd0818

Daniel Sullivan said:


> By historically, I mean within the history of the art.  If a guy created an art called Christjutsu in 1970 and based every technique on some Bibical passage, then the art is historically a Christian art.
> 
> Thus Taekwondo is less than a hundred years old.  It had no specifically Christian aspects to its philosophy at its inception.  The major organizations make no inclusion of specific Christian values in their tenets.  Thus if I start a "Christian TKD association", I am adding something that was not historically part of the art.



Makes sense - I was going a little older in "history" and looking at an art that would have developed with or because of Christianity.  But yes, you are correct in that most arts taught today are well under 100 years old.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Methinks that you may not be correct on this assessment.  In the ancient world, I believe that Israel existed for a longer peroid of time than the US has been a soveriegn state.  And let us be realistic; we needed help from France.
> 
> I would say that Israel's past loss of sovereignty was more an issue of their foes having much a larger military force.  Israel was also usually one of many countries steamrolled by such powers as the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Phonecians, and the Romans.  This is a separate dynamic from the effectiveness of a martial art.
> 
> Daniel



And I'll agree with you there on the most part . . . part of the reason that I made the comment "comical note."  Israel has never been very stable and has been conquered, enslaved, divided up, shared, fought over, etc. pretty much its entire history.  Does that relate to any martial skill the Israelites may have had?  Well, not directly, but I figured if we are talking about a people that have survived for a few thousand years but always seem to get conquered, do you really want to learn their art?  

And to compare that to the US . . . well, the French helped, but I really think it was a plot by aliens.  Why do you think that WE have Area 51?


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## Carol

Shh! You said you weren't gonna say anything about the aliens.


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## elder999

mwd0818 said:


> . Why do you think that WE have Area 51?


 

Because WE set off a few atomic bombs, back in '45......


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## mwd0818

elder999 said:


> Because WE set off a few atomic bombs, back in '45......



They were actually flux capacitors that the aliens used to power their space ships and cloaking devices.  Never seen an alien?  That's why . . . they are invisible.


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## Xue Sheng

mwd0818 said:


> They were actually flux capacitors that the aliens used to power their space ships and cloaking devices. Never seen an alien? That's why . . . they are invisible.


 
Was this before or after the Kanamit showed up with thier best selling book "To Serve Man" :anic:


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