# A few questions about JJ



## kehcorpz

Hi, I have a few questions.

1) does traditional JJ include ANY techniques like kicks,punches,hand deflections OR does it all come down
to fighting on the ground?

2) how hard is JJ on the body? for example when your training partner performs an arm lock on you which is used to break the attacker's arm then does this cause pain? I mean how close are you to actually breaking your arm?
I have seen vids where locks were demonstrated and the guy who was being locked had tap out whenever it became too painful. This means that the guy who was performing the lock was actually causing pain.
To me this sounds pretty dangerous. I mean when you're already in a zone where you have to tap out then this means that it's already pretty painful.

What if for example your training partner is a jerk and he applies too much force and you seriously injure yourself?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

kehcorpz said:


> Hi, I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) does traditional JJ include ANY techniques like kicks,punches,hand deflections OR does it all come down
> to fighting on the ground?
> 
> 2) how hard is JJ on the body? for example when your training partner performs an arm lock on you which is used to break the attacker's arm then does this cause pain? I mean how close are you to actually breaking your arm?
> I have seen vids where locks were demonstrated and the guy who was being locked had tap out whenever it became too painful. This means that the guy who was performing the lock was actually causing pain.
> To me this sounds pretty dangerous. I mean when you're already in a zone where you have to tap out then this means that it's already pretty painful.
> 
> What if for example your training partner is a jerk and he applies too much force and you seriously injure yourself?



When you say "traditional JJ", are you referring to Japanese JJ? If so, it doesn't look much like Brazilian JJ. It's also a fairly generic term. In general, it will include locks, pins, throws, strikes, etc.

And yes, in most cases, it hurts (NGA is a descendent from one form of JJ). When training, you learn where to stop, and the tapping out is how your partner lets you know you've gone far enough. Some folks train in that pain zone a lot. Others avoid it most of the time (we are somewhere between - we use the pain to train our pain tolerance for defense, but keep it low enough we can function the next day). Any realistic training will have pain. It will have injuries, even some occasional significant ones - in 30+ years of training, I have dislocated a toe, two thumbs (that would be the maximum number), numerous bruises, torn toenails, a bloody lip, a black eye, and a few relatively minor injuries to larger joints (elbows, knees, shoulders).


----------



## kehcorpz

I don't know the difference between japanese JJ and brazilian JJ. I guess I mean stuff like Gracie JJ.

But from what you said this isn't suitable for me. I already have issues with various joints. Such a kind of training would likely mess me up even more.

Also if JJ only teaches you how to fight on the ground then it's not complete. Why does it not include arm deflections and stuff you can do in a standing position?


----------



## Kickboxer101

kehcorpz said:


> I don't know the difference between japanese JJ and brazilian JJ. I guess I mean stuff like Gracie JJ.
> 
> But from what you said this isn't suitable for me. I already have issues with various joints. Such a kind of training would likely mess me up even more.
> 
> Also if JJ only teaches you how to fight on the ground then it's not complete. Why does it not include arm deflections and stuff you can do in a standing position?


No martial art is right for you take up gaming that seems to be more your area than anything physical


----------



## Tez3




----------



## frank raud

kehcorpz said:


> What if for example your training partner is a jerk and he applies too much force and you seriously injure yourself?



If your partner is a jerk and applies too much force, HE will seriously injure you. How is this different than an art where they punch and kick. If your partner is a jerk and kicks you too hard, will he not injure you?


----------



## frank raud

kehcorpz said:


> Hi, I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) does traditional JJ include ANY techniques like kicks,punches,hand deflections OR does it all come down
> to fighting on the ground?
> 
> 2) how hard is JJ on the body? for example when your training partner performs an arm lock on you which is used to break the attacker's arm then does this cause pain? I mean how close are you to actually breaking your arm?
> I have seen vids where locks were demonstrated and the guy who was being locked had tap out whenever it became too painful. This means that the guy who was performing the lock was actually causing pain.
> To me this sounds pretty dangerous. I mean when you're already in a zone where you have to tap out then this means that it's already pretty painful.
> 
> What if for example your training partner is a jerk and he applies too much force and you seriously injure yourself?



Please don't waste your time looking at jiu jitsu or judo. They are too expensive, you have to buy fancy uniforms and you will probably have to sign a long term contract.


----------



## JR 137

frank raud said:


> Please don't waste your time looking at jiu jitsu or judo. They are too expensive, you have to buy fancy uniforms and you will probably have to sign a long term contract.



And they're unrealistic in that they're purely for competition.


----------



## PiedmontChun

The OP has been a bit of a troll on the Wing Chun section of MT lately, posting vids there and making overly simplistic remarks / criticisms. Seems to me he is a young guy stuck in his own mind trying to figure out what art to choose and where to train, but has not taken the plunge to even observe a class or take an actual class.


----------



## Kickboxer101

PiedmontChun said:


> The OP has been a bit of a troll on the Wing Chun section of MT lately, posting vids there and making overly simplistic remarks / criticisms. Seems to me he is a young guy stuck in his own mind trying to figure out what art to choose and where to train, but has not taken the plunge to even observe a class or take an actual class.


That's the polite way of saying it yeah apart from the fact I don't think he has any intentions of starting he just enjoys thinking he knows it all from his extenisve training under grandmaster YouTube


----------



## Flatfish

Yeah you need to give up.......most MA have joint locks.....and all MA hurt when training....sorry but it's a fact that it does not feel good when you get punched or kicked in the face or if you get thrown on the ground....if you can't deal with that, go buy some body armor or wrap yourself in pillows, move on with your life and forget MA


----------



## oaktree

kehcorpz said:


> Hi, I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) does traditional JJ include ANY techniques like kicks,punches,hand deflections OR does it all come down
> to fighting on the ground?
> 
> 2) how hard is JJ on the body? for example when your training partner performs an arm lock on you which is used to break the attacker's arm then does this cause pain? I mean how close are you to actually breaking your arm?
> I have seen vids where locks were demonstrated and the guy who was being locked had tap out whenever it became too painful. This means that the guy who was performing the lock was actually causing pain.
> To me this sounds pretty dangerous. I mean when you're already in a zone where you have to tap out then this means that it's already pretty painful.
> 
> What if for example your training partner is a jerk and he applies too much force and you seriously injure yourself?


Yes traditional Japanese jujutsu has strikes and what type and how much emphasis and the reason for them depends on the ryuha. 
Deflections, parry, blocks what not again, depends on the ryuha. Fighting on the ground depends what you mean, most classical styles do not have you rolling on the ground like ufc as it would be some what difficult and impractical in the settings these arts come from.
How hard Japanese jujutsu is on the body I guess depends on your ukemi and how tori is. You are learning a system that was taught to people who relied on it on the battlefield if they were without a weapon in some cases or someone trying to really hurt them so a sense of realism does exist.
Your partner is going to put pressure on your joint it will hurt to a degree, but understand he is learning the correct leverage, angle, pressure, and technique needed to submit uke, tapping is the universal sign of your limit and a mutual respect for each other to not put any more pressure or release the lock. There is always a risk in doing martial arts, some guys in class are more aggressive then others and if you have concerns talk to your class mate or teacher


----------



## JR 137

Flatfish said:


> ....if you can't deal with that, go buy some body armor or wrap yourself in pillows, move on with your life and forget MA



Bubble wrap would be so much more fun.  For everyone.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Bubble wrap would be so much more fun.  For everyone.


Yet another post that makes me wish to be able to apply more than one rating.


----------



## drop bear

Japanese jujitsu can look a bit like judo and a bit like akido depending on the type of instructor. 

The striking is karate ish.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> Japanese jujitsu can look a bit like judo and a bit like akido depending on the type of instructor.
> 
> The striking is karate ish.



Er… huh? Your (highly questionable) information comes from where, exactly? Cause… no.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Er… huh? Your (highly questionable) information comes from where, exactly? Cause… no.



I am my own source anecdotally. Lol wait I am not you.

I trained here for five years.
Australian JiuJitsu Judo & Chinese Boxing Federation of Instructors

If you are suggesting a more traditional jjj there probably is. But from what I have seen of it it trades off effectiveness for authenticity.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> I am my own source anecdotally. Lol wait I am not you.



You do realise that every time you say that, it just shows that you don't know how to follow a simple argument method, yeah? And that, well, you're a petty soul who can't let things go?

For the record, the idea of being your own source is covered in you saying what you trained in… so you are your own source for that… 



drop bear said:


> I trained here for five years.
> Australian JiuJitsu Judo & Chinese Boxing Federation of Instructors



Barry Bradshaw? Hmm, that's literally 5 minutes down the road from me… I visited him about 10 years ago or so to see what he's about, and, well… no. Not a good source at all. I mean, he's certainly no Judan in Judo… the rest of his ranking is highly suspect in terms of where it comes from (likely from Bradshaw himself), the description of him as being "one of the first All-Australian Internationally recognised 10th Dans" (what on earth does that mean? "All-Australian"? Huh? And 10th Dan in what, exactly?), the lack of any specificity as to the school of jujutsu (the spelling alone not engendering confidence), and more all add up to some quite concerning impressions…

There are a number of groups affiliated with the above group… few of which have much positive about them… such as the Monash University Jiu-Jitsu Club (http://jiujitsu.org.au/monash/about.html)… who refer to their style name as "Tai Jitsu Ryu" (which is just bizarre, an indicative of absolutely no understanding of the culture, or of being in any way close to anything authentically Japanese), have obviously no clue about the structure of martial arts (saying that the students study the "more advanced techniques of… aiki-ju-jitsu, judo-do (?)". Additionally, the form of Judo being taught is not Kodokan, but what they're referring to as Kawaishi Judo (Kawaishi Mikinosuke was an early pioneer in European Judo, especially in France… not sure of any actual connection to Australia…) 

One thing that interests me, though, is that all of Barry's affiliated schools are here in Melbourne (well, the Eastern suburbs, at least)… I'm assuming you were living down here then?



drop bear said:


> If you are suggesting a more traditional jjj there probably is.



Well, being actually Japanese would be a good start, if you're going to start claiming to know what Japanese Jujutsu is like… because you're description is relatively accurate for modern, Western founded forms of "jujitsu" and similar… but does not bear much resemblance to actual Japanese forms.



drop bear said:


> But from what I have seen of it it trades off effectiveness for authenticity.



I'd ask what you've actually seen… and remind you that "effectiveness" is not a single sided description… effectiveness depends entirely on the context. And, frankly, you don't have the knowledge, experience, or understanding to grasp what different contexts require… that much you've proven multiple times over your posts here (see! You are your own source again!).


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> You do realise that every time you say that, it just shows that you don't know how to follow a simple argument method, yeah? And that, well, you're a petty soul who can't let things go?
> 
> For the record, the idea of being your own source is covered in you saying what you trained in… so you are your own source for that…
> 
> 
> 
> Barry Bradshaw? Hmm, that's literally 5 minutes down the road from me… I visited him about 10 years ago or so to see what he's about, and, well… no. Not a good source at all. I mean, he's certainly no Judan in Judo… the rest of his ranking is highly suspect in terms of where it comes from (likely from Bradshaw himself), the description of him as being "one of the first All-Australian Internationally recognised 10th Dans" (what on earth does that mean? "All-Australian"? Huh? And 10th Dan in what, exactly?), the lack of any specificity as to the school of jujutsu (the spelling alone not engendering confidence), and more all add up to some quite concerning impressions…
> 
> There are a number of groups affiliated with the above group… few of which have much positive about them… such as the Monash University Jiu-Jitsu Club (http://jiujitsu.org.au/monash/about.html)… who refer to their style name as "Tai Jitsu Ryu" (which is just bizarre, an indicative of absolutely no understanding of the culture, or of being in any way close to anything authentically Japanese), have obviously no clue about the structure of martial arts (saying that the students study the "more advanced techniques of… aiki-ju-jitsu, judo-do (?)". Additionally, the form of Judo being taught is not Kodokan, but what they're referring to as Kawaishi Judo (Kawaishi Mikinosuke was an early pioneer in European Judo, especially in France… not sure of any actual connection to Australia…)
> 
> One thing that interests me, though, is that all of Barry's affiliated schools are here in Melbourne (well, the Eastern suburbs, at least)… I'm assuming you were living down here then?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, being actually Japanese would be a good start, if you're going to start claiming to know what Japanese Jujutsu is like… because you're description is relatively accurate for modern, Western founded forms of "jujitsu" and similar… but does not bear much resemblance to actual Japanese forms.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd ask what you've actually seen… and remind you that "effectiveness" is not a single sided description… effectiveness depends entirely on the context. And, frankly, you don't have the knowledge, experience, or understanding to grasp what different contexts require… that much you've proven multiple times over your posts here (see! You are your own source again!).



You get seriously weird about this linage thing don't you?


----------



## Chris Parker

That's what you take out of that? You make a comment about what "Japanese Jujutsu" is like, with no accuracy at all, due to your lack of exposure to the actual subject, I point that out, and you think I'm being "weird about this lineage thing"?!?

Dude. You might as well be telling people that all French cuisine is thin, fried segments of potatoes, because all you've ever had are French Fries… and then wonder why cordon bleu chefs disagree and correct your mistakes. That's the equivalent here.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> That's what you take out of that? You make a comment about what "Japanese Jujutsu" is like, with no accuracy at all, due to your lack of exposure to the actual subject, I point that out, and you think I'm being "weird about this lineage thing"?!?
> 
> Dude. You might as well be telling people that all French cuisine is thin, fried segments of potatoes, because all you've ever had are French Fries… and then wonder why cordon bleu chefs disagree and correct your mistakes. That's the equivalent here.



Mabye manic is the better term?

Japanese martial arts isn't really a reflection Japanese culture anymore. Like everything else it becomes a fusion. Innovation is better than imitation.

So should OP step into a Japanese jujitsu school he is more likley to experience what I described than not.

Your metaphor would be more like a hipster demanding an egg plant be called an aubergine. You really are the only one who cares.


----------



## Chris Parker

No, you've (hardly surprisingly) missed the point… despite the name, French Fries aren't even French, let alone indicative of French cuisine… similarly, many Western inventions, despite their name of "Japanese Jiujitsu" or similar, or claims of being "traditional", "the art of the samurai", or anything similar, are really nothing to do with actual Japanese jujutsu, traditional Japanese arts, bushi methods, or anything of the kind.

Simply put, if someone went into a "Japanese jujitsu school", and experienced the kind of thing you described, they haven't actually found a Japanese Jujutsu school. That's the point.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> egg plant be called an aubergine. You really are the only one who cares.



Actually no, no one other than Americans and you obviously call an aubergine anything other than an aubergine. Seriously, no one in the UK and Europe knows what an eggplant is.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Actually no, no one other than Americans and you obviously call an aubergine anything other than an aubergine. Seriously, no one in the UK and Europe knows what an eggplant is.



See. That exactly.

An aubergine by any other name still tastes. Well kind of ick in my view.

(I was going to do the sparkling white/champagne distinction)


----------



## Chris Parker

Actually, Tez, eggplant is the more common term here.

And, honestly, the sparkling white/champagne distinction is at least a bit closer to the case here… if it's not actually from Champagne, it's not actually champagne… and becomes an imitation of it. 

The thing with wanting to apply the term "Japanese Jujutsu" to actual, you know, Japanese Jujutsu… I don't see why you would want to knowingly mislead by putting forth non-Japanese systems that don't share much at all with their genuine name sake (certainly a lot less than sparkling white wine shares with actual champagne)… if someone comes along to the forum asking about Japanese Jujutsu, why should we present things that aren't that very thing they're asking about? They may not have much of an accurate impression to begin with (as you clearly don't), but that's what we can help remedy… well, provided you don't continually muddy the waters by bringing in inaccurate misunderstandings, non-Japanese arts, and then arguing about your own lack of knowledge in this subject.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Actually, Tez, eggplant is the more common term here.
> 
> And, honestly, the sparkling white/champagne distinction is at least a bit closer to the case here… if it's not actually from Champagne, it's not actually champagne… and becomes an imitation of it.
> 
> The thing with wanting to apply the term "Japanese Jujutsu" to actual, you know, Japanese Jujutsu… I don't see why you would want to knowingly mislead by putting forth non-Japanese systems that don't share much at all with their genuine name sake (certainly a lot less than sparkling white wine shares with actual champagne)… if someone comes along to the forum asking about Japanese Jujutsu, why should we present things that aren't that very thing they're asking about? They may not have much of an accurate impression to begin with (as you clearly don't), but that's what we can help remedy… well, provided you don't continually muddy the waters by bringing in inaccurate misunderstandings, non-Japanese arts, and then arguing about your own lack of knowledge in this subject.



So not the true jujitsu. But you are not hung up on linage.


----------



## Chris Parker

Not actually JAPANESE Jujutsu… seriously, are you that lacking in your ability to read a damn message?!? I've lost track of the number of times I've made that distinction in the last few posts…

Okay, I'm going to try this futility once more, and explain in a way that, maybe, you might grasp.

Imagine someone asked about a BJJ school. They want to know what is done there. And someone else commented that, in their experience, BJJ involves a lot of jumping, kicking, and solo practice, as well as some rolling around on the ground while people hit you, because they were told that what they were doing in their TKD class was BJJ… is it getting "weird about lineage", "hung up on lineage", or any other dismissive term for having understanding beyond yourself that you want to use, by pointing out that that's not BJJ?


----------



## Tez3

Aussies wanting to copy Americans lol. Ok for the rest of the world it's aubergine so still a lousy analogy. As for Champagne, legally it's not Champagne unless it comes from the Champagne region of France, so it's not an imitation of champagne it's an illegal copy lol. You sell something as champagne and it's not, you will be sued. The Champanois are zealous in their legal efforts when protecting their product.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Not actually JAPANESE Jujutsu… seriously, are you that lacking in your ability to read a damn message?!? I've lost track of the number of times I've made that distinction in the last few posts…
> 
> Okay, I'm going to try this futility once more, and explain in a way that, maybe, you might grasp.
> 
> Imagine someone asked about a BJJ school. They want to know what is done there. And someone else commented that, in their experience, BJJ involves a lot of jumping, kicking, and solo practice, as well as some rolling around on the ground while people hit you, because they were told that what they were doing in their TKD class was BJJ… is it getting "weird about lineage", "hung up on lineage", or any other dismissive term for having understanding beyond yourself that you want to use, by pointing out that that's not BJJ?



So tenth planet. Bjj? Which is not really real bjj shouldn't be called that.


----------



## Chris Parker

By that logic, you'd say that Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, being based (now) in the US, isn't Japanese Jujutsu, but it matches what is found in other Japanese Jujutsu methods, and is a direct descendent of such… Tenth Planet BJJ matches what is found in other forms of BJJ, and is a direct descendent of such… many of these "Japanese jujitsu" schools don't actually descend from Japanese Jujutsu, and are mishmashes of what they think (classical) jujutsu is made up of, typically by combining methods and technical (albeit not truly understood) methods of systems and approaches that post-date what they think they're getting close to.

In other words, no, it's not that simple...


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> By that logic, you'd say that Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu, being based (now) in the US, isn't Japanese Jujutsu, but it matches what is found in other Japanese Jujutsu methods, and is a direct descendent of such… Tenth Planet BJJ matches what is found in other forms of BJJ, and is a direct descendent of such… many of these "Japanese jujitsu" schools don't actually descend from Japanese Jujutsu, and are mishmashes of what they think (classical) jujutsu is made up of, typically by combining methods and technical (albeit not truly understood) methods of systems and approaches that post-date what they think they're getting close to.
> 
> In other words, no, it's not that simple...



Neither is the 10 planet relationship.


----------



## Chris Parker

So… leaving off the fact that even 10th Planet doesn't use the term "BJJ" to describe themselves (simply "10th Planet Jiujitsu"), are you saying that, having trained under Jean-Jaques Machado, Eddie Bravo doesn't have a connection, and 10th Planet doesn't have a heritage to BJJ? Really?


----------



## Flying Crane

I say that given the demotion of Pluto to the status of "minor planet" and the astronomical societies now only recognize eight proper planets in our solar system, they've got a name problem.


----------



## Kickboxer101

I'm going to give some genuine advice now god knows why but I will. If you don't want to get hurt at all your best bet is to something like boxercise classes. You won't get hit you'll get in shape and you'll have some very basic training it won't be amazing but it's more than you'd do now


----------



## JR 137

Kickboxer101 said:


> I'm going to give some genuine advice now god knows why but I will. If you don't want to get hurt at all your best bet is to something like boxercise classes. You won't get hit you'll get in shape and you'll have some very basic training it won't be amazing but it's more than you'd do now



Just because you don't get hit doesn't mean it won't hurt.  I'm sure his finger problem will get worse from hitting a bag.  Or even punching the air.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> Just because you don't get hit doesn't mean it won't hurt.  I'm sure his finger problem will get worse from hitting a bag.  Or even punching the air.



The person stood next to him might sweat and beads of it could hit him while he's jumping around.


----------



## Kickboxer101

JR 137 said:


> Just because you don't get hit doesn't mean it won't hurt.  I'm sure his finger problem will get worse from hitting a bag.  Or even punching the air.


Yeah but it's probably least risk he can have but what am I saying he's not going to do anything


----------



## Tez3

Kickboxer101 said:


> he's not going to do anything



Oh he will...he'll keep posting on here! A poster on another thread has just mentioned Muay Thai so look for that thread next...'is Muay Thai good for keeping your figure.'


----------



## Kickboxer101

Tez3 said:


> Oh he will...he'll keep posting on here! A poster on another thread has just mentioned Muay Thai so look for that thread next...'is Muay Thai good for keeping your figure.'


Nah it'll be does is it barbaric Muay Thai hurts your shins


----------



## JR 137

Tez3 said:


> The person stood next to him might sweat and beads of it could hit him while he's jumping around.



A terminal disease just waiting to be contracted.


----------



## Tez3

JR 137 said:


> A terminal disease just waiting to be contracted.



And that drop of sweat is sooo heavy it drives you to your knees!


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> So… leaving off the fact that even 10th Planet doesn't use the term "BJJ" to describe themselves (simply "10th Planet Jiujitsu"), are you saying that, having trained under Jean-Jaques Machado, Eddie Bravo doesn't have a connection, and 10th Planet doesn't have a heritage to BJJ? Really?



As I mentioned though the lineage is a pretty meh conversation to me. So if they want to call their stuff jjj or bjj or even 10th planet j I am fine with that. Proof is in the pudding.

There are sparkling whites that do champagne better.

So. In your opinion. What does a really real Chris Parker Japanese jujitsu class look like?


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> There are sparkling whites that do champagne better.



They are sparkling white wines though not champagne. If the grapes aren't grown in the Champagne region of France then it's not nor ever will be champagne.
You may like a certain white wine better than a certain champagne but they are all very different to a knowledgeable palate, it's all about taste.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> They are sparkling white wines though not champagne. If the grapes aren't grown in the Champagne region of France then it's not nor ever will be champagne.
> You may like a certain white wine better than a certain champagne but they are all very different to a knowledgeable palate, it's all about taste.



No it's all about linage. Can't call stuff sherry anymore either. Which is alcohol for homeless people. Have to call it apera

Which I am sure is a relief to those with a knowledgeable palette. And those sleeping on a pallet.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Which I am sure is a relief to those with a knowledgeable palette


You are painting a bad picture here. sherry is still sherry, it's for posh people, homeless people drink Buckfasts. Buckfast Tonic Wine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> You are painting a bad picture here. sherry is still sherry, it's for posh people, homeless people drink Buckfasts. Buckfast Tonic Wine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Yeah those posh people really dig the 2 litres of wine for ten bucks.

Golden Oak Sweet Apera 2L


So fortified wine and caffeine. Hey what could go wrong with that?


----------



## Tez3

Proper Spanish Sherry is not cheap and is actually a very nice thing, the thing is when something is taken up by those from other countries who don't understand traditions, how to chose and taste it, it just turns into a mess. It's best left to those who appreciate what sherry actually is.  All about Sherry: an amazing tasting, and why we should drink more of it


----------



## Steve

I bought a sparkling wine once.   It was a champagne, but they were trying to pass it off as a cava.   The nerve!

And I thought the drink of choice on skid row (which is only correctly used if referring to Yesler Avenue in Seattle!) is mad dog 20/20.  All other skid rows are counterfeit.  

So, having enjoyed this entire thread, I've learned that Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word, tez thinks she's the only person in Europe who knows what an eggplant is, and drop bear likes wine, but doesn't know what to call it.  

I haven't learned a thing about jujutsu, though.


----------



## JR 137

@Steve 

Going through this thread and disagreeing with several posts, I have to ask you, do you understand what sarcasm is?  Do you know why we've been that way with the OP?


----------



## Steve

JR 137 said:


> @Steve
> 
> Going through this thread and disagreeing with several posts, I have to ask you, do you understand what sarcasm is?  Do you know why we've been that way with the OP?


I do know what sarcasm is.  I also understand irony.  For example, it is ironic that you missed the sarcasm in my previous post.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Proper Spanish Sherry is not cheap and is actually a very nice thing, the thing is when something is taken up by those from other countries who don't understand traditions, how to chose and taste it, it just turns into a mess. It's best left to those who appreciate what sherry actually is.  All about Sherry: an amazing tasting, and why we should drink more of it



And if people want to pay big money for Sherry they can go nuts with that. 

Me i will keep it for cooking and getting black out drunk.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I bought a sparkling wine once.   It was a champagne, but they were trying to pass it off as a cava.   The nerve!
> 
> And I thought the drink of choice on skid row (which is only correctly used if referring to Yesler Avenue in Seattle!) is mad dog 20/20.  All other skid rows are counterfeit.
> 
> So, having enjoyed this entire thread, I've learned that Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word, tez thinks she's the only person in Europe who knows what an eggplant is, and drop bear likes wine, but doesn't know what to call it.
> 
> I haven't learned a thing about jujutsu, though.



Jujitsu is kind of a cross between judo akido and karate.

I did it for five years.


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> and getting black out drunk.



Cheapskate. Try scrumpy cider, the farmhouse stuff with dead rats and goodness knows what in.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Cheapskate. Try scrumpy cider, the farmhouse stuff with dead rats and goodness knows what in.



For fancy drinking we have the bundaberg rum.  Which is made from the souls of a thousand angry rugby players.  (and not even real rugby.  I am talking about league)


----------



## JR 137

Like you missed the sarcasm in my judo and jujitsu are purely competition arts post?


----------



## Steve

JR 137 said:


> Like you missed the sarcasm in my judo and jujitsu are purely competition arts post?


i didn't miss it.


----------



## JR 137

Steve said:


> i didn't miss it.



So you understood the sarcasm of me saying judo and jujitsu are only competitive sports, yet you disagreed with it.

Not trying to stir up an argument here, but are you saying they are purely competitive sports?


----------



## Steve

JR 137 said:


> So you understood the sarcasm of me saying judo and jujitsu are only competitive sports, yet you disagreed with it.
> 
> Not trying to stir up an argument here, but are you saying they are purely competitive sports?


You saw some people picking on an easy target and thought you'd demonstrate how clever you are by joining in the fray.  When I read it, I thought it was unnecessary and frankly, a little mean.  Rather than type all the above out, I pushed the little button and moved on.

As someone who is clearly very sensitive when it comes to a meaningless rating on an anonymous web forum, maybe you should consider avoiding callously mocking others.  I mean, I just pushed a "disagree" button and you can't let it go.  It bothers you so much that I disagreed with your post, you have called me out three times on it.

I'm glad I didn't suggest you were 2nd place in the all time loser contest or anything.  I expect you might have had a complete meltdown.

Looking back at the post, perhaps I should have pressed the "dislike" button and maybe the "disagree" button wasn't quite right.  But ultimately, it is what it is.  My intent wasn't to confuse you.  If it will help you find some closure, I'd be happy to go back and change my rating from "disagree" to "dislike".  Just let me know.


----------



## JR 137

Steve said:


> You saw some people picking on an easy target and thought you'd demonstrate how clever you are by joining in the fray.  When I read it, I thought it was unnecessary and frankly, a little mean.  Rather than type all the above out, I pushed the little button and moved on.
> 
> As someone who is clearly very sensitive when it comes to a meaningless rating on an anonymous web forum, maybe you should consider avoiding callously mocking others.  I mean, I just pushed a "disagree" button and you can't let it go.  It bothers you so much that I disagreed with your post, you have called me out three times on it.
> 
> I'm glad I didn't suggest you were 2nd place in the all time loser contest or anything.  I expect you might have had a complete meltdown.
> 
> Looking back at the post, perhaps I should have pressed the "dislike" button and maybe the "disagree" button wasn't quite right.  But ultimately, it is what it is.  My intent wasn't to confuse you.  If it will help you find some closure, I'd be happy to go back and change my rating from "disagree" to "dislike".  Just let me know.



I'm really not butt-hurt at all.  I was just genuinely confused.  Didn't realize I had however many posts about it.  I couldn't care less what anyone thinks.

Keep fighting the good fight, Steve.


----------



## Steve

I'm sure glad we worked that out.  I feel closer to you now than ever before.


----------



## Tames D

I'm glad too Steve. Now, you two join hands and sing Kumbaya.


----------



## JR 137

Steve said:


> I'm sure glad we worked that out.  I feel closer to you now than ever before.



Me too, buddy.  I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.  I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.


----------



## Tames D

Steve said:


> I'm sure glad we worked that out.  I feel closer to you now than ever before.





JR 137 said:


> Me too, buddy.  I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.  I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.


----------



## Steve

JR 137 said:


> Me too, buddy.  I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders.  I'll definitely sleep far better tonight than I thought I would.


Wait a minute.   Was that sarcasm?


----------



## Tames D

Just messin with you guys.


----------



## JR 137

Forgot to insert quote


----------



## JR 137

Steve said:


> Wait a minute.   Was that sarcasm?



NOOOO!

It's all in good fun.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> As I mentioned though the lineage is a pretty meh conversation to me.



Yet you continue to argue against the proper and accurate application of it… without understanding any part of it at all.



drop bear said:


> So if they want to call their stuff jjj or bjj or even 10th planet j I am fine with that.



Er… kay…? Then you're fine with using completely inaccurate descriptions? Won't that lead to, I don't know, complete utter confusion when you try to discuss anything at all?



drop bear said:


> Proof is in the pudding.



Proof of what? Seriously, the topic at hand is what is traditional Jujutsu (which, by definition then, is Japanese) is proven "in the pudding", if it's not in the lineage of the system itself? Are you aware of what you think you're arguing against?



drop bear said:


> There are sparkling whites that do champagne better.



So here's where this issue constantly breaks down… the question is not what is better, the question is what it actually is in the first place. The sparkling white might be "better" in your estimation… but that doesn't make it actually champagne… it's still a sparkling white. By the same token, the whole idea of "hey who cares what they call it, the proof is in the pudding" is completely irrelevant. Calling something by a particular name is a way to identify it by it's characteristics and identifying markers… not a way to say "it's better because it's so and so"… 

The point is simple. The question was about what traditional jujutsu was like… you answered stating what Japanese jujutsu was like… but you were inaccurate due to your experience being in a modern, Western amalgam of non-jujutsu systems given a false name… so you were called on it. It's got nothing to do with what is better or worse, it's to do with giving actually correct information and descriptions of the arts asked about.



drop bear said:


> So. In your opinion. What does a really real Chris Parker Japanese jujitsu class look like?



There are a number of markers, such as wabi-sabi, particular cultural methodologies, a heavy emphasis on kata-geiko, a consistency in it's own ri-ai, consistent principles, and a few more aspects… but the major, dominant factor is that it's Japanese. 



Steve said:


> So, having enjoyed this entire thread, I've learned that Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word, tez thinks she's the only person in Europe who knows what an eggplant is, and drop bear likes wine, but doesn't know what to call it.



 It is a Japanese word. Especially when spelt 柔術. And doubly especially when we're discussing Japanese jujutsu. 



Steve said:


> I haven't learned a thing about jujutsu, though.



Then ask some questions. But actually take the answers on board, yeah?


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> It is a Japanese word. Especially when spelt 柔術. And doubly especially when we're discussing Japanese jujutsu.
> 
> Then ask some questions. But actually take the answers on board, yeah?


I think you need to ask more questions about language and maybe take those answers on board, yeah?  "Japanese" isn't even a Japanese word, much less "jujutsu."  "Japanese" is an English word that describes someone who is from the country of Japan (in English).   "Japanisch" is a German word, not a Japanese word.  In Spanish, it's "japonés."

For someone who revels in nuance when it serves your ego, you sure don't seem to pay much attention to details otherwise.   I'm sure I thoroughly explained this to you before.   Seriously, Chris.  You need to take your own advice.


----------



## Steve

Here's a question.  Is Chinese food really Chinese? 

My personal opinion is that the term "traditional" causes a lot of problems.  People use this term in many ways and it often leads to trips down the rabbit hole.  I think that people use the term "traditional" when they really mean "authentic."  Traditional, in the context used often around here, is a term that is functionally meaningless. 

Traditional Chinese food in America is not authentic Chinese food.  It is often cooked by people who are Chinese (or Chinese American), and it usually checks all of the traditional boxes.  A traditional Chinese restaurant in America will serve General Tso's chicken, Chop Suey, Beef with Broccoli, egg rolls, Orange Chicken and several other dishes.  This is traditional.  I'd be shocked to go into a Chinese restaurant in America and NOT find these dishes on the menu.  But they are not "authentic" Chinese dishes.  And yet... they are Chinese dishes, because they are served in a Chinese restaurant.  

In the same way, the broader labels within Martial Arts become very contextual.  There is a difference between saying Jujutsu or referring to a specific style.  Arguing that "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific is like arguing that Chinese food means something specific.  I don't know what Chinese food looks like in Mexico, but I expect it will be different than here or in China.   Karate is a general term that means different things to different people.  Goju Ryu means something specific.  Ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) mean different things to different people, but Budo Taijutsu is specific. 

As usual, we suffer from a stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions of general terms.   The solution is to be specific.  And Chris, maybe a little less arrogance.  It permeates every one of your posts like a guy wearing too much cheap cologne, son.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Here's a question.  Is Chinese food really Chinese?
> 
> My personal opinion is that the term "traditional" causes a lot of problems.  People use this term in many ways and it often leads to trips down the rabbit hole.  I think that people use the term "traditional" when they really mean "authentic."  Traditional, in the context used often around here, is a term that is functionally meaningless.
> 
> Traditional Chinese food in America is not authentic Chinese food.  It is often cooked by people who are Chinese (or Chinese American), and it usually checks all of the traditional boxes.  A traditional Chinese restaurant in America will serve General Tso's chicken, Chop Suey, Beef with Broccoli, egg rolls, Orange Chicken and several other dishes.  This is traditional.  I'd be shocked to go into a Chinese restaurant in America and NOT find these dishes on the menu.  But they are not "authentic" Chinese dishes.  And yet... they are Chinese dishes, because they are served in a Chinese restaurant.
> 
> In the same way, the broader labels within Martial Arts become very contextual.  There is a difference between saying Jujutsu or referring to a specific style.  Arguing that "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific is like arguing that Chinese food means something specific.  I don't know what Chinese food looks like in Mexico, but I expect it will be different than here or in China.   Karate is a general term that means different things to different people.  Goju Ryu means something specific.  Ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) mean different things to different people, but Budo Taijutsu is specific.
> 
> As usual, we suffer from a stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions of general terms.   The solution is to be specific.  And Chris, maybe a little less arrogance.  It permeates every one of your posts like a guy wearing too much cheap cologne, son.



I was going to try an shoe horn in iron chef french there. But couldn't figure out a way to do that.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> There are a number of markers, such as wabi-sabi, particular cultural methodologies, a heavy emphasis on kata-geiko, a consistency in it's own ri-ai, consistent principles, and a few more aspects… but the major, dominant factor is that it's Japanese.



You know you are pretty bloody white.  To be making that distinction mate. 

And your words make no sense.  Make more sense.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> So here's where this issue constantly breaks down… the question is not what is better, the question is what it actually is in the first place. The sparkling white might be "better" in your estimation… but that doesn't make it actually champagne… it's still a sparkling white. By the same token, the whole idea of "hey who cares what they call it, the proof is in the pudding" is completely irrelevant. Calling something by a particular name is a way to identify it by it's characteristics and identifying markers… not a way to say "it's better because it's so and so"…
> 
> The point is simple. The question was about what traditional jujutsu was like… you answered stating what Japanese jujutsu was like… but you were inaccurate due to your experience being in a modern, Western amalgam of non-jujutsu systems given a false name… so you were called on it. It's got nothing to do with what is better or worse, it's to do with giving actually correct information and descriptions of the arts aske



Theoretically yes.  Mabye. If your linage claims are correct.

Practically no.  Because if i go on line and find myself a Japanese jujitsu school i am likley to experience pretty much what i described. Same as if i go in to a bottle shop and ask for a champagne.

Now i may get some super traditional school run by a modern day (white) samurai. And perform nasi goreng or whatever it is they do. And that is fine as well.

You go to different schools and do different things.

But your expectation of what should be.  May not be what is.


----------



## pgsmith

Gentlemen, this forum is labeled *Japanese Martial Arts Talk*. This *is* the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.

  You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

Wow.


----------



## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> Gentlemen, this forum is labeled *Japanese Martial Arts Talk*. This *is* the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.
> 
> You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.



Yeah. But he isn't Japanese.

And that is an actual thing isn't it?

I vaguely recall having that discussion with my jjj instructor that to get it you have to have be brought up in the culture or don,t bother.

I was looking up wabi wabi. And yeah it is not really a concept that can be explained.


----------



## Steve

pgsmith said:


> Gentlemen, this forum is labeled *Japanese Martial Arts Talk*. This *is* the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.
> 
> You may not care for how he presents it, but Chris has a lot of knowledge about the Japanese martial arts.


Aren't we discussing what is and isn't a Japanese martial art?  I thought that was precisely what we were discussing.

I'll take your word regarding Chris.


----------



## pgsmith

Steve said:


> Aren't we discussing what is and isn't a Japanese martial art?  I thought that was precisely what we were discussing.
> 
> I'll take your word regarding Chris.



  Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.


----------



## Tames D

pgsmith said:


> Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.


Funny how that seems to happen on a lot of threads


----------



## Steve

pgsmith said:


> Originally were discussing that, then it degenerated into just arguing with Chris.


Well, it's more correct to say that Chris started arguing with drop bear.  I mean, if you go back and look at the actual posts.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> Well, it's more correct to say that Chris started arguing with drop bear.  I mean, if you go back and look at the actual posts.



Fraud busting?


No. That couldn't be right.


----------



## Hanzou

Have to back up Chris on this one....

His issue is that you have people combining Judo and Karate into eclectic systems and calling them Jujutsu in order to make a buck. They even give themselves fancy titles and even made up histories in order to draw people in.

In short, many of these "Sokes" are straight up frauds who are swindling people. Lineage is important because you're paying to learn an authentic system passed down through generations from one master to the next. Unfortunately a lot of these guys are simply passing along garbage that cheat students out of learning a real traditional martial art.

This is why I tend to avoid traditional styles and stick with more modern methods. It's pretty hard to be a phony in Bjj or MMA.

As for 10th Planet JJ, it's legit. Eddie Bravo is a Machado black belt and he tapped out Royler Gracie with a triangle. He knows what he's doing.

The names he gives his techniques makes me want to RNC a kitten though.


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, I'm getting a bit fed up with some of the idiocy found here…



Steve said:


> I think you need to ask more questions about language and maybe take those answers on board, yeah?  "Japanese" isn't even a Japanese word, much less "jujutsu."  "Japanese" is an English word that describes someone who is from the country of Japan (in English).   "Japanisch" is a German word, not a Japanese word.  In Spanish, it's "japonés."



What the hell are you talking about?!?! No-one, not me, not you, not anyone at any time, in any place, on any thread, in any post, on any forum, in any way whatsoever, has ever, not even once, suggested anything even similar to the idea that "Japanese" was anything other than an English word.

You think I should be asking more questions on language, Steve? Seriously? Nihongo ga wakarimashitaka?

Go back and read properly. Without that chip on your shoulder… it's blocking your view.



Steve said:


> For someone who revels in nuance when it serves your ego, you sure don't seem to pay much attention to details otherwise.   I'm sure I thoroughly explained this to you before.   Seriously, Chris.  You need to take your own advice.



Garbage, Steve. You're not even paying enough attention to know which words you think you're arguing about. Tell you what… when you start being able to follow an actual discussion, I'll listen to your advice.



Steve said:


> Here's a question.  Is Chinese food really Chinese?



You think that's the same discussion?!? You have no clue what the actual discussion is, then.



Steve said:


> My personal opinion is that the term "traditional" causes a lot of problems.  People use this term in many ways and it often leads to trips down the rabbit hole.  I think that people use the term "traditional" when they really mean "authentic."  Traditional, in the context used often around here, is a term that is functionally meaningless.



That's an argument from both ignorance and arrogance… you can't grasp the definition, therefore it doesn't have one?!? Get over yourself. This is the same as your constant (incorrect) idea that no-one can define self defence (we can), so no-one can teach self defence (we do), and anyone who says they do are lying (we aren't), just because you refuse to listen to the people who actually do deal in the topic, and can't get your own head around the topic.

Definitions are used to provide consistency and clarity… but that doesn't mean that a definition, or term, has to be so restrictive that it can only have one, singular and individual expression. The term "traditional" does encompass a fair amount… so does "self defence"… as do many other terms… in this thread, "Japanese Jujutsu" covers quite an array of methodologies and expressions… but there is still some basic consistency to the term itself… one major aspect being that the system in question is actually Japanese. Your Chinese restaurant simile is far closer to claiming that drop bears example system is the same thing as actual Japanese jujutsu, based purely on the name used by the system itself… and, you're illustrating pretty clearly that, well, it's not, the same way that the food found in an American Chinese restaurant is not the same as you'd find in downtown Shanghai, despite the naming convention.



Steve said:


> Traditional Chinese food in America is not authentic Chinese food.  It is often cooked by people who are Chinese (or Chinese American), and it usually checks all of the traditional boxes.  A traditional Chinese restaurant in America will serve General Tso's chicken, Chop Suey, Beef with Broccoli, egg rolls, Orange Chicken and several other dishes.  This is traditional.  I'd be shocked to go into a Chinese restaurant in America and NOT find these dishes on the menu.  But they are not "authentic" Chinese dishes.  And yet... they are Chinese dishes, because they are served in a Chinese restaurant.



So what? This has exactly what to do with misidentifying non-Japanese systems as representative of Japanese arts? You do realise that you're actually making my argument here, yeah? And who the hell talks about "traditional Chinese restaurants" meaning things like that? Seriously, who describes them as "traditional"?!? 



Steve said:


> In the same way, the broader labels within Martial Arts become very contextual.  There is a difference between saying Jujutsu or referring to a specific style.  Arguing that "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific is like arguing that Chinese food means something specific.  I don't know what Chinese food looks like in Mexico, but I expect it will be different than here or in China.   Karate is a general term that means different things to different people.  Goju Ryu means something specific.  Ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) mean different things to different people, but Budo Taijutsu is specific.



Please tell me you're not actually trying to tell me about the distinction between categorisation of forms of martial systems and identification of individual ones, yeah? I mean… do you actually think you're in a position to do that? Really? Tell me, then, what do you know of Takeuchi Ryu Kogusoku Koshi no Mawari? How about Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu? You're familiar with Sho Sho Ryu Jujutsu, yeah? Sekiguchi Shin Shin Ryu? How about Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, know where that comes from? The makeup of Fusen Ryu? How about Iga Ryuha Katsushin Ryu? You are aware of the differing forms of jujutsu found within Chikuosha Yagyu Shingan Ryu, of course? And what the distinctions are? What the Gyoi Dori is applied to, as opposed to the Kattchu Yawara? You're cognisant of the jujutsu methodologies of sogo bujutsu arts, such as Kashima Shinryu, naturally?

But here's the most important thing. Karate will mean different things (specifically) to different people, based on the art they study, or if they study it at all… but no-one is going to watch an Escrima demonstration and think it's Karate. Similarly, "Japanese Jujutsu", while encompassing many different methods and approaches, is not the same as karate… or fencing… or Wing Chun… or BJJ, frankly. To claim that, just because it's not one, single, individual thing, therefore it can't be defined enough to mean something clearly is to be so woefully, wilfully ignorant of pretty much every level of the way martial arts are classified as to tantamount to deliberate idiocy.

Yes, "Japanese Jujutsu" means something specific. Most importantly, it means that things that are not Japanese Jujutsu are not classified or described as it. And I'm not talking about the marketing rhetoric of the particular systems here… they can claim to be whatever the hell they want… but if they're not actually what they claim to be, they're not actually what they claim to be. I'm talking about a community of interested, educated practitioners using their expertise to identify what things actually are. And, no matter what you, drop bear, or Tames D may think of it, when it comes to these areas, I am one of the people who bring some expertise to these discussions… you (collectively) do not.



Steve said:


> As usual, we suffer from a stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions of general terms.



What?!? You're kidding, yeah? I'm providing working definitions, you're refusing to accept them because… honestly, who knows why… it's certainly not because you have any knowledge of the topic… so, if anything, the issue is not a "stubborn refusal to budge on working definitions", it's an even more stubborn, and ill-founded refusal to accept what the actual working definition is in the first place.



Steve said:


> The solution is to be specific.



What the hell do you think I've done?!? Seriously, I want you to be able to answer this… I provided examples, and have done many times when these questions have come up, I  gave drop bear a number of examples of hallmarks found in these systems, and have been applying a very simple, basic criteria for a Japanese Jujutsu system (namely that it actually is Japanese… there's more, obviously, but that's simply been my starting point… and I really didn't think there'd be resistance to the idea that a Japanese art actually be Japanese…)… but now you're saying I need to be specific?!?! When your comments are that "it's too vague to be meaningful"?!?!

What are you going on about?!?



Steve said:


> And Chris, maybe a little less arrogance.  It permeates every one of your posts like a guy wearing too much cheap cologne, son.



Steve, that wasn't me being arrogant… that was me being frustrated in the face of idiotic arguments from people who don't have a clue what they're talking about, yet continue to argue against the guy telling them what's what. The only arrogance you saw there was what you brought in with you, son.



drop bear said:


> You know you are pretty bloody white.  To be making that distinction mate.



What?!?!? What on earth are you talking about?!? I'm "too white" to say that a Japanese art should be actually Japanese?!?!

Is that what you're saying? Are you going to say that… you know what, I can't even think of something so stupid as your comment there… it doesn't even make any sense within the context of this discussion. I never claimed that the practitioners need to be Japanese, just that the art did… so… what?



drop bear said:


> And your words make no sense.  Make more sense.



The words make perfect sense if you're familiar with the topic. That was part of the point. If I start getting into what makes something easily identifiable as a Japanese art, you have to look at it in Japanese terms, and have a familiarity with the topic in the first place… if you don't have that, I can understand you being unsure… which is why I was giving the information in the first place. But the main concern here is that I know what I'm talking about. You don't.



drop bear said:


> Theoretically yes.  Mabye. If your linage claims are correct.



Yeah, you've gone off the deep end again… you're not listening to the actual argument. There is no "maybe", and it's got nothing to do with if "lineage claims are correct", as the whole point is in correct identification, not which is "better"…



drop bear said:


> Practically no.  Because if i go on line and find myself a Japanese jujitsu school i am likley to experience pretty much what i described. Same as if i go in to a bottle shop and ask for a champagne.



No. If you find a school that claims to be Japanese jujitsu (to use that spelling), and you see what you've described, then you're not actually training in Japanese jujutsu… which is the damn point of all of this in the first place.



drop bear said:


> Now i may get some super traditional school run by a modern day (white) samurai. And perform nasi goreng or whatever it is they do. And that is fine as well.



Do you go out of your way to be insulting? I mean… the terminology you're using, at once dismissive of what you're imagining things to be like (and being completely ignorant of it, and off base), and simultaneously poking fun at the practitioners of such arts… is nothing but a disrespectful act. I get that you want to treat everything like a joke, with a "why so serious" attitude, but recognise that it makes you look like a disrespectful jerk. And, frankly, I feel that's mainly because you are one.



drop bear said:


> You go to different schools and do different things.



Completely irrelevant. The only relevance is in the schools are all actually schools of Japanese jujutsu… if not, who cares what they do? Of course it's going to be different… it's not even the same type of system.



drop bear said:


> But your expectation of what should be.  May not be what is.



Dude. It's nothing to do with my expectations or anything of the kind… it's to do with what is. Your entire argument simply screams that you don't know what you're talking about, and yet want to argue with someone who does. It's not a good plan.



pgsmith said:


> Gentlemen, this forum is labeled *Japanese Martial Arts Talk*. This *is* the proper place to discuss what is and isn't a Japanese martial art. If y'all don't like that discussion, it is very easy to avoid the Japanese martial arts forums completely.



THIS.

If you are interested in Japanese arts, feel free to post here. If you have questions on Japanese martial arts, feel free to post here. If you have no interest, and refuse to listen to the answers to questions, or information that is far better than you currently possess, then, simply, get the hell out. Frankly at this point, you're simply trolling.



drop bear said:


> Yeah. But he isn't Japanese.



So what?!?! Is Steve Brazilian? Can he then not talk about BJJ, because he's "too white" to be saying such things?

Can you see how your argument is completely idiotic? This is about knowledge, not ethnic background. Understand that.



drop bear said:


> And that is an actual thing isn't it?
> 
> I vaguely recall having that discussion with my jjj instructor that to get it you have to have be brought up in the culture or don,t bother.



Kancho Barry Bradshaw… got at least 3rd Dan legitimately in Judo, the rest is highly questionable, and was not Japanese, was not brought up in the culture, or anything similar… but he still peddled that tired idea to you? And you believed it? Tell me, can you not "get it" in BJJ if you're not from Rio de Janiero? If you didn't grow up in Sao Paulo, should you simply "not bother"?



drop bear said:


> I was looking up wabi wabi. And yeah it is not really a concept that can be explained.



So you can see why I didn't give an English translation, yeah? As I said, it's something that you become aware of… and something that makes perfect sense when you understand the topic.



Steve said:


> Aren't we discussing what is and isn't a Japanese martial art?  I thought that was precisely what we were discussing.



No, I'm saying what it is, and you and drop bear are arguing against it. With no actual clue of what you're arguing against.



Steve said:


> Well, it's more correct to say that Chris started arguing with drop bear.  I mean, if you go back and look at the actual posts.



Really? Let's look at that… drop bear made a comment ostensibly describing what "Japanese jujutsu" was like… his description doesn't match what I understand it to be, so I asked where he got his ideas from, and, sure enough, it was from a modern, Western art cobbled together from a number of mechanical aspects of others (not the actual arts, but that's a deeper conversation), so I pointed that out, and gave a single, basic idea of one of my most essential criteria for Japanese Jujutsu… namely, that it's actually Japanese. Drop bear then started making accusations about my being "weird about this lineage thing" (missing the point, again), and then continuing to argue, telling me that his non-Japanese art is what people entering into a Japanese jujutsu dojo are likely to actually find…

So… I was the one that started arguing? You do realise that, if drop bear simply said something like "oh, okay, we were told it was Japanese jujutsu at the time, I guess it wasn't", the last 3 pages would have been avoided… but he didn't.



drop bear said:


> Fraud busting?



Huh? How can you possibly come to that idea? What part of any of that was fraud busting?



drop bear said:


> No. That couldn't be right.



Well, that at least is correct (although you do seem to be saying it sarcastically… which is ironic in and of itself, as it's the only correct thing you've said in this thread…), as there is no fraud busting in this thread. What there is, though, is borderline trolling. From you, and from Steve.

Once again, if you want to know about this topic, ask questions. We don't mind if you don't know, provided you actually listen to the answers. If you insist on arguing against the information you're given, though, that's where we have issues. Particularly when those arguments come from a complete lack of knowledge and insight, and are based more on personal agendas than anything else.

If you don't want to actually learn, then get the hell out. Staying to argue in this fashion is simply trolling. And I'm sick of it.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Steve

Hi Chris.  I think you've misunderstood my points, here and clearly in other threads as well.  I don't doubt you are very knowledgeable.  The issue is that you cannot distinguish between fact and opinion, and that you cannot distinguish between what you know a little bit about and what you know a lot about.  You continually assert that your position is the only position, and that usually isn't the case.  And you are not at all reluctant to speak with authority on things you clearly only know about academically.  Some of the discussions about grappling were just bizarre, but you remain undeterred, and I've noticed that you are just as likely to speak with authority about styles in which you've never trained as you are to call other people out for doing the same.

And when pushed, you react by intentionally demeaning people and bullying them into, often, leaving the site.  Which, frankly, I believe is pretty despicable.

You mentioned self defense.  I've never said (or at least intended to say) that self defense is undefinable.  I've read with interest dozens of threads on the topic of self defense over the last decade or so.  I've asked questions and listened to the answers.  I've read other peoples' questions and answers.  And I've concluded that the term "self defense" means different things to different people.  It's a term that is so generic in nature, it can be used in the same conversation by two knowledgeable people and mean something completely different to each.   The same can be said for the term "kata" based upon the many threads we've seen on the topic where people who are knowledgeable and credible actively disagree on the subject.

Related to this thread, words are contextual and mean different things to people depending upon where they are.  Tez3 often points out that words don't mean to Americans what they mean to her.  A simple example was her confusion in this thread about eggplants.  Was she wrong? 

I have suggested that self defense instruction that focuses almost entirely on physical skills is not likely to help the average person be safer, but that's a different discussion.

As a quick aside, I laughed out loud when you wrote to Drop Bear, "Do you go out of your way to be insulting?"  Knowing, as we do, that you actually do go out of your way to be insulting.  You even once explained why you do it.  Something about trying to shock the person, if I remember correctly.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> So what?!?! Is Steve Brazilian? Can he then not talk about BJJ, because he's "too white" to be saying such things?
> 
> Can you see how your argument is completely idiotic? This is about knowledge, not ethnic background. Understand that.



Steve hasn't mentioned anything Brazilian. If he did.  I would suggest he isn't. I am pretty sure not one whit of traditional Brazilian culture came up.

But you want to decide what is and isn't Japanese.

That is about ethnic background. You cant adopt that.  It makes you look silly (which is why most people dont try)

You were the one that raised what is and what isn't authentically Japanese. Not me. And when it comes to representing a culture knowledge isn't the end point. You really have to be pert of that culture.

Apparently it is only important to a certain level you can achieve.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Huh? How can you possibly come to that idea? What part of any of that was fraud busting?



Are you accusing a club of lying about their origins?

And lying about the style they do? 

 basically calling them frauds.


----------



## Chris Parker

Steve said:


> Hi Chris.  I think you've misunderstood my points, here and clearly in other threads as well.



Honestly, I don't. I simply think you have been unable to take on board anything that anyone else has said to you… and it has continued for years, now.

I mean… the following threads are simply evidence of that:
Is it possible to "train" for something that you never actually do?
Sport And TMA....Again (go to page 47 onwards for most of it…)
Can You Be An Expert?
Is being a cop self defense

and there are more that I'm missing here, of course. As well as our PM conversation on the topics, and your taking on board what was being said… which you still seem unable to do.



Steve said:


> I don't doubt you are very knowledgeable.



And yet… you're arguing against me in the very area I'm knowledgable about? Can you see the incongruity in what you're saying here?



Steve said:


> The issue is that you cannot distinguish between fact and opinion, and that you cannot distinguish between what you know a little bit about and what you know a lot about.



To be frank, it seems more to me that you cannot distinguish between someone giving you facts that go against your original ideas… and you dismiss them as "opinion". I rarely give opinion, you understand.



Steve said:


> You continually assert that your position is the only position, and that usually isn't the case.



No, I assert that, when I'm speaking factually, I'm talking about facts. Facts aren't based on what's convenient, or suits a position, you understand.



Steve said:


> And you are not at all reluctant to speak with authority on things you clearly only know about academically.  Some of the discussions about grappling were just bizarre, but you remain undeterred, and I've noticed that you are just as likely to speak with authority about styles in which you've never trained as you are to call other people out for doing the same.



Well, here's where you get to have your fun… if I do say things that are "bizarre", call me on it, and present better evidence than my own. I am curious as to what you're referring to, though… 



Steve said:


> And when pushed, you react by intentionally demeaning people and bullying them into, often, leaving the site.  Which, frankly, I believe is pretty despicable.



Again, bring forth some evidence. I start gentle (albeit serious), and get more harsh as the resistance continues. 



Steve said:


> You mentioned self defense.  I've never said (or at least intended to say) that self defense is undefinable.



Are you serious? You've said pretty much that, word for word, in multiple threads, over and over again… even when presented with actual definitions and explanations, you continue with the same statements… regardless of what else you're told. I mean… in Tony Dismuke's recent "SPFV" thread, it was literally nothing but a definition of "self defence" when it came to teaching and training it, and you again said that it was a meaningless, vague term that couldn't be defined adequately in your eyes… 

Need examples? Sure! The following all comes from a single thread (Can You Be An Expert?), with links left so you can double check your context:



Steve said:


> I do agree that the term self defense is too broad.  It's hopelessly abstract.





Steve said:


> Self Defense is so vague that I don't think it's very useful.
> ………..
> Why is this?  I believe it's because "self defense" is a sales pitch.





Steve said:


> Self Defense is vague.  It's like saying "love."  Love means something different to everyone... and so does "self defense."  People don't train self defense.  People train in systems.





Steve said:


> My opinion is that the term "self defense' is so abstract as to be worthless.





Steve said:


> As I've said many times, the term is so vague as to be worthless.





Steve said:


> Earlier in the thread, I compared the term "self defense" to another abstract, "love."  In my opinion, you can't really teach people "self defense" because you can't teach people an abstract.
> …………
> In the same way, you can't (IMO) teach self defense.  But you can teach skills that may (or may not) have some application in self defense.





Steve said:


> Over the course of this thread, I've said many times that the term "self defense" is so broad as to be unhelpful.
> …………
> There are a lot of problems that come about simply because people are using an abstract term to refer to something very specific.  "Self Defence" when they mean "situational awareness" or "de escalation techniques" or "how to fight x number of ninja in a dark alley."





Steve said:


> Because we're specifically discussing a physical activity (self defense), can we agree that you are not referring to "academic" expertise?  We're talking about physically doing the thing.  Right?





Steve said:


> Someone earlier said that "self defense" was a term used to get people through the door.   I agree.   There are people on this forum and throughout the martial arts world making a living teaching self defense, despite having little to no experience on the subject.  Would certainly affect their bottom line if their students understood this.



But, of course, you've never said, or meant to say, that it's undefinable… sure… 



Steve said:


> I've read with interest dozens of threads on the topic of self defense over the last decade or so.  I've asked questions and listened to the answers.



That is not reflected in any of the threads linked above.



Steve said:


> I've read other peoples' questions and answers.  And I've concluded that the term "self defense" means different things to different people.  It's a term that is so generic in nature, it can be used in the same conversation by two knowledgeable people and mean something completely different to each.



Hang on… didn't you just say that you've never said, or intended to imply, that the term "self defence" is indefinable… yet you then say that it's so generic that it means completely different things?



Steve said:


> The same can be said for the term "kata" based upon the many threads we've seen on the topic where people who are knowledgeable and credible actively disagree on the subject.



Most arguments come from people not so knowledgable or credible, frankly.



Steve said:


> Related to this thread, words are contextual and mean different things to people depending upon where they are.  Tez3 often points out that words don't mean to Americans what they mean to her.  A simple example was her confusion in this thread about eggplants.  Was she wrong?



Words can be. As can terminology. However, the context points you in the direction of the appropriate definition, working or otherwise… and, honestly, many of Tez's comments are simply ways of informing that English has as many cultural variants as anything else… but no, there was no confusion about eggplants. She was saying they are commonly known by a different word in England… not that "eggplants" means "pumpkin" in England (which would be the same as your argument).



Steve said:


> I have suggested that self defense instruction that focuses almost entirely on physical skills is not likely to help the average person be safer, but that's a different discussion.



You've suggested much more than that. You've suggested that no martial arts instructor can be an expert in self defence, you've suggested that no martial arts school can actually offer instruction in self defence, you've suggested that self defence itself can't be defined, you've suggested that instructors teaching self defence are lying to their students, and more. And, when informed of just how wrong you were in every case there, you continued with the same ideas, and put them out again. 

But, of course, you were "listening to the answers" on all those self defence threads, weren't you? 

I recently sent Tony Dismukes a breakdown of my self defence teachings (rather than post them in his thread, mainly to avoid a few posters there who I consider to be completely lacking in knowledge in the area, and simply drag the conversation down). Maybe you can ask him if what I sent would qualify as an actual self defence curriculum? And if, by following it, I could actually be teaching self defence? Frankly, I don't think you'd hear it if I was to tell you yet again.



Steve said:


> As a quick aside, I laughed out loud when you wrote to Drop Bear, "Do you go out of your way to be insulting?"  Knowing, as we do, that you actually do go out of your way to be insulting.  You even once explained why you do it.  Something about trying to shock the person, if I remember correctly.



You know, I almost regret telling you, as it's patently obvious you couldn't follow what I was saying, and have (since then) decided that you should give me some of my own medicine… which only works when you understand what the medicine is for, and how the dosage works.



drop bear said:


> Steve hasn't mentioned anything Brazilian. If he did.  I would suggest he isn't. I am pretty sure not one whit of traditional Brazilian culture came up.
> 
> But you want to decide what is and isn't Japanese.



Are you completely incapable of understanding what is written? All I've said is that, in order to be Japanese Jujutsu, it has to actually be Japanese! Nothing about my being Japanese, nothing about my being part or arbitrator of the culture, just that the damn art has to be Japanese!!

To look at it another way, if I was to start a school, teaching some basic judo, with some arnis stick work, and call it Gracie Jiujitsu, would you have to be a Gracie to call me out on that? That's what I was saying. Your whole idea of "you're pretty white to be saying what is and isn't Japanese" is sheer idiocy, and is based on your inability to actually follow a simple discussion.



drop bear said:


> That is about ethnic background. You cant adopt that.  It makes you look silly (which is why most people dont try)



You have no idea what you're talking about. I'd say that that makes you look silly, but most of your posts do that already.



drop bear said:


> You were the one that raised what is and what isn't authentically Japanese. Not me.



Which is entirely to do with the heritage of the system, not what culture I am. If it's classed as Japanese, it should come from Japan… not be made up by some guy in the West.



drop bear said:


> And when it comes to representing a culture knowledge isn't the end point. You really have to be pert of that culture.



You have absolutely no clue.



drop bear said:


> Apparently it is only important to a certain level you can achieve.



That doesn't even make any sense. What?



drop bear said:


> Are you accusing a club of lying about their origins?
> 
> And lying about the style they do?
> 
> basically calling them frauds.



I'm not calling them frauds, I'm sure they think they're doing what they think Japanese jujutsu is like… sadly for them, they don't have any clue. I'm leaving off the multiple questions about Barry's ranking for now.


----------



## Steve

Thanks for linking to those threads.   Very interesting discussions, Chris.


----------



## Steve

Pretty much sums it up for me.  





Steve said:


> LOL...  sorry about this.  Autocorrect got me last night.  I meant who don't train in BJJ.
> 
> Sport arts (or arts with a competitive element), such as some styles of Karate, BJJ, San Shou and the like, have what I believe is a distinct advantage over non-competitive arts.  They train to the test.  In other words, if you train for boxing, you ultimately get to box.  If you train to wrestle, there is an avenue for you to compete in wrestling.  The skills can translate, of course, but the context of the skills you're learning remains very clear and easy to understand.
> 
> Non-competitive arts also have some advantages.  The main one that comes to my mind is the lack of tunnel vision that can occur in a sport art.  If well rounded skills is the goal, it can be detrimental to focus solely on the competition.  This leads to tactics that are really only good for the ruleset.  For example, pulling guard in BJJ or some of the tactics used in Olympic TKD.
> 
> It seems to me that introducing sport into an art is not the end of the world, and can really benefit the style.  However, it's just as important to remain open minded, asking questions and training outside of the strict ruleset of the competition (ie, maybe upside down guard isn't a great idea for self defense.  What if he has a knife?  What if he has a friend?  What would I do if this happens or that happens? )
> 
> And, if you choose not to train in an art with a competitive element (or even if you do) AND your goal is to be well rounded, I think that the occasional meeting with like minded martial artists from other styles would be very helpful.  You think that your techniques will work against a competent grappler?  Try it.  Hook up with some grapplers and find out.  Maybe make some friends in the process.
> 
> Bottom line, in my opinion, a middle ground is really the best way, IF your goal is to be a well rounded martial artist.
> 
> Now, I still don't think that it's possible for most people in today's society to become experts in self defense.  It's just not.  But, it's possible to learn skills that can help you, and the more well rounded one is as a martial artist, the better your chances in the remote chance you have to use them.





Steve said:


> I'll post more about what I think expert means when I have a real keyboard.  When it becomes important is when one presumes to teach. There are a lot of "self defense experts" who little to no practical experience who make their living teaching self defense .  Like a golf pro who's never hit a ball outside the driving range.
> 
> Otherwise, I think you said pretty much what I said, but somehow made it sound as though you disagreed with me.  Maybe I'm missing your point.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD





Steve said:


> It sounds like you have a definite idea of what "the test" is, and you're applying the filter of self defense to that test.  When I say that a sport art teaches to the test, what I mean is a pure sport art, such as Western Boxing or freestyle wrestling, does not purport to be a self defense art.  While you can easily see some self defense application, they aren't teaching you self defense.  You're learning to box or to wrestle within the rules of the sport.
> 
> My point is that this is a double edged sword.  The down side is that you are very likely learning habits that could be great for the sport but terrible for self defense (ie, pulling guard in a street fight.)  The up side, though, is that you are building skills and technical ability that can provide a solid foundation for self defense.  A boxer is not learning self defense.  The test that the boxer is training for is a boxing match.  And what does that mean?  It means that a boxer KNOWS that he or she can execute a straight jab, a cross, a hook or an uppercut, with good head movement and footwork against people trained to stop them from doing so.  He or she knows how powerful each technique really is.  "Oh, that punch REALLY knocks people out, and I have the timing and experience to make it work."  Sport does this for you.  If a technique is too deadly to ever execute it against a real person at full speed, you will not really know if you can pull it off.
> 
> Bottom line is that a boxer can become an expert boxer.  A jiu-jitiero can become an expert jiu-jitiero.  A bujinkan taijutsu practioner can become an expert at taijutsu.  But NONE of those equal expertise at self defense.  But, try to remember that this isn't strictly a thread about self defense.  If self defense is your goal, than it would be a great idea to cross train or at least spend time widening the scope of your training.  Once again, it seems as though you are defaulting to a filter where effectiveness for self defense is the measure.  I used "well rounded" as a way to suggest that self defense ISN'T everyone's goal in training.  However you define it is important, and maybe the lesson to be learned here is that knowing what you want out of training is important.  A self defense school may not be the best school for everyone.possibly, but sport provides objective feedback.  If you have a clear focus on your training, and you have a clear and realistic understanding of what you expect to learn about your training from the sport, I don't believe it can be anything but positive.  If self defense skills are your goald, sports can be a way to hide bad training ("I'm great at deep half guard, so it's my go to in a street fight").  But lack of sport is also a terrific way to hide bad training.  Yes.  We disagree completely.  You cannot be an expert in self defence without practical, real world experience in the field applying the techniques.  You CAN become an expert in a system.  Call it Parker-fu, put whatever techniques you want, apply measures for proficiency and teach people to an expert level in your system.  Because THAT'S what they're learning and applying.  They are not defending themselves in your class.  They are applying your system.
> 
> This is not to say that your system doesn't work.  It may.  But it doesn't create self defense experts.  It creates Parker-fu experts.  Its' been around long enough that it's not a fad.  There are schools popping up all over the world.  It's not a competition.  I'm not opening a school in Australia.  I get that Hanzou is ruffling some feathers, and frankly, saying that BJJ "isn't a big deal" sounds to me to be a petty attempt to take Hanzou down a notch or two.  When I said, "who gives a rip?" what I mean is, "This is completely irrelevant."


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not calling them frauds, I'm sure they think they're doing what they think Japanese jujutsu is like… sadly for them, they don't have any clue. I'm leaving off the multiple questions about Barry's ranking for now



You are saying that their claim of being a Japanese jujitsu school is false.

Which part of that is not calling them a fraud?


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Are you completely incapable of understanding what is written? All I've said is that, in order to be Japanese Jujutsu, it has to actually be Japanese! Nothing about my being Japanese, nothing about my being part or arbitrator of the culture, just that the damn art has to be Japanese!!
> 
> To look at it another way, if I was to start a school, teaching some basic judo, with some arnis stick work, and call it Gracie Jiujitsu, would you have to be a Gracie to call me out on that? That's what I was saying. Your whole idea of "you're pretty white to be saying what is and isn't Japanese" is sheer idiocy, and is based on your inability to actually follow a simple discussion.



You mean would I fraud bust your fake style?

I don't think I am allowed to.


----------



## Chris Parker

Steve said:


> Thanks for linking to those threads.   Very interesting discussions, Chris.



Did you even pay attention to why I linked them? At all?



Steve said:


> Pretty much sums it up for me.



Sums what up? The topic here isn't anything to do with any of that… if you want to rehash that tired debate, where you constantly ignore anyone not agreeing with you, start yet another thread on it… the topic here is Japanese Jujutsu. You don't know anything about that? Then you have nothing to add. Don't have any questions? Then you can't further the conversation. Want to bring in topics from other, old threads? You're off topic and trolling.



drop bear said:


> You are saying that their claim of being a Japanese jujitsu school is false.
> 
> Which part of that is not calling them a fraud?



We covered this a while back, if they are deliberately, and knowingly presenting themselves as a historical tradition, all the while being aware that they're not, that's fraud. However, in this case, we have a group who are presenting what they think Japanese jujutsu is like… sadly, they have nowhere near the requisite exposure or understanding to know just how foolish they look. In other words, they're not so much frauds, as fools.



drop bear said:


> You mean would I fraud bust your fake style?
> 
> I don't think I am allowed to.



I don't think you quite get how fraud busting works…


----------



## Steve

Yeah.  It's pretty clear why you posted those links.  I hope people read the threads.  They were interesting threads and will provide some context to my opinions about snake oil salesmen who peddle self defense training without any practical expertise.  

Regarding the other stuff, I'm not sure what you think continued back and forth will accomplish.  At this point, I think you're arguing just to argue.


----------



## Chris Parker

Steve said:


> Yeah.  It's pretty clear why you posted those links.



Sure.



Steve said:


> I hope people read the threads.  They were interesting threads and will provide some context to my opinions about snake oil salesmen who peddle self defense training without any practical expertise.



And the counter that those "snake oil salesmen" are not the only ones who claim to be teaching self defence, not even the majority. Your ill-founded bias notwithstanding, the threads show that you, frankly, cannot listen… and are in denial about even what you've said.



Steve said:


> Regarding the other stuff, I'm not sure what you think continued back and forth will accomplish.  At this point, I think you're arguing just to argue.



No, I was hoping that you'd have the integrity to actually respond to what has been said. So far, you've ignored, or at least opted to avoid responding to anything I've put forth… instead trying to back someone who also doesn't know what what they're talking about in this context, and taking things off topic. I was hoping that you'd either actually answer, or at least have the integrity to say you are out of your depth here… especially as you acknowledge that I'm "very knowledgable" in this area. But no, I suppose that's a bit too much to hope for…


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> ]At this point, I think you're arguing just to argue.


Oh, the irony.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Oh, the irony.


Sarcasm.


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> And the counter that those "snake oil salesmen" are not the only ones who claim to be teaching self defence, not even the majority. Your ill-founded bias notwithstanding, the threads show that you, frankly, cannot listen… and are in denial about even what you've said.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I was hoping that you'd have the integrity to actually respond to what has been said. So far, you've ignored, or at least opted to avoid responding to anything I've put forth… instead trying to back someone who also doesn't know what what they're talking about in this context, and taking things off topic. I was hoping that you'd either actually answer, or at least have the integrity to say you are out of your depth here… especially as you acknowledge that I'm "very knowledgable" in this area. But no, I suppose that's a bit too much to hope for…


oh brother.  You hope to keep this going as long as possible.  

I really think the threads you posted say it all, and if anyone is interested, they can check those threads out.  

Regarding questions, as a general rule I avoid answering questions that are loaded.


----------



## Chris Parker

Then bow out. It's pretty obvious you aren't here to actually discuss the topic.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Sarcasm.


Actually, no. It's ironic that you made a comment about someone arguing just for the sake of argument.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Actually, no. It's ironic that you made a comment about someone arguing just for the sake of argument.


Lol. I get it. And was pointing out that it was intentionally so.  I'm self aware and understand how I'm perceived.


----------



## Chris Parker

That doesn't even make sense… 

Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?

It genuinely doesn't make any sense…


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Chris Parker said:


> That doesn't even make sense…
> 
> Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?
> 
> It genuinely doesn't make any sense…


I think he was correcting me, in pointing out that he saw his own post as sarcastic - a suitable appelation since he admits he's sometimes viewed that way, himself.


----------



## Chris Parker

Even that doesn't make any sense, though… the comment made was that he felt I was "arguing just to argue"… if he was being sarcastic, or even felt he was being seen as being sarcastic, that undermines his comment itself in the first place…


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Then bow out. It's pretty obvious you aren't here to actually discuss the topic.


I prefer not to bow.  It's part of why I prefer BJJ over judo. 

But, I certainly did want to actually discuss the topic.  You're making this now about me bowing out.  Why is that so important to you now?  You could just stop responding.  Over the last few posts, I've tried to stop the nonsense, but you can't let it go.  You have to have the last word. 


Chris Parker said:


> That doesn't even make sense…
> 
> Seriously, were you correcting GPSeymour that you thought he meant "sarcastic" when he said "irony"? If not, what were you saying was "sarcastic", as the word by itself, without any context makes no sense at all? If so, what were you pointing out, as he wasn't being sarcastic, he was being quite accurate when he said that your comment was ironic (you do know the word, yeah? I'm not being funny… most Americans seem not to)? If not, what were you pointing out that was "intentionally so"? "Intentionally so" what?
> 
> It genuinely doesn't make any sense…


I think to start, you have to understand what the two words mean, Chris.  I wasn't correcting GPSeymour.  I was providing context.  Yes, it was ironic.  Sarcasm is a kind of ironic statement.  Dumbass. 

Second, you have to ask questions and then, actually take on the answer, yeah?  (that's also sarcasm, just in case it's too subtle for you, Chris.)


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Even that doesn't make any sense, though… the comment made was that he felt I was "arguing just to argue"… if he was being sarcastic, or even felt he was being seen as being sarcastic, that undermines his comment itself in the first place…


Isn't that weird?  LOL. 

Okay.  I'll explain it to you.  I know that I have a reputation of arguing just to argue.  Obviously, I don't agree, but will openly admit that my ginger half gets the better of me sometimes.

AND, you argue just to argue, as well.  But I don't think you understand that.  You have such a driving need to be acknowledged as the professor, you literally cannot let it go, and have to have the last word.


----------



## Chris Parker

Steve said:


> I prefer not to bow.  It's part of why I prefer BJJ over judo.
> 
> But, I certainly did want to actually discuss the topic.  You're making this now about me bowing out.  Why is that so important to you now?  You could just stop responding.  Over the last few posts, I've tried to stop the nonsense, but you can't let it go.  You have to have the last word.
> I think to start, you have to understand what the two words mean, Chris.  I wasn't correcting GPSeymour.  I was providing context.  Yes, it was ironic.  Sarcasm is a kind of ironic statement.  Dumbass.
> 
> Second, you have to ask questions and then, actually take on the answer, yeah?  (that's also sarcasm, just in case it's too subtle for you, Chris.)



So you don't know what irony is, then. Fair enough. For the record, no, sarcasm is not "a kind of ironic statement", but it's pointless continuing that here.

Taking you on your word (and assuming you're not being sarcastic), would you like to address the topic? The only time you actually have is to say that "Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word… I still haven't learnt a thing about jujutsu though"… so… how would you like to get back to it?

Oh, and you do realise that the above post is going to be reported, yeah? Just FYI.


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> So you don't know what irony is, then. Fair enough. For the record, no, sarcasm is not "a kind of ironic statement", but it's pointless continuing that here.
> 
> Taking you on your word (and assuming you're not being sarcastic), would you like to address the topic? The only time you actually have is to say that "Chris still thinks jujutsu is a Japanese word… I still haven't learnt a thing about jujutsu though"… so… how would you like to get back to it?
> 
> Oh, and you do realise that the above post is going to be reported, yeah? Just FYI.


You really need to look the word up, Chris.  Pick any dictionary.

But, sure.  I get it.  Americans are dumb and we don't understand irony. 



> sar·casm
> [ˈsärˌkazəm]
> *NOUN*
> 
> the use of irony to mock or convey contempt:





> Full Definition of _sarcasm_
> 
> 
> _1_ :  a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
> 
> 
> _2a_ :  a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual_b_ :  the use or language of sarcasm


----------



## Chris Parker

You also read the part about it being pointless to continue here, yeah? And the request for you to actually have anything to do with the actual topic, as you haven't really done that in the 4 pages you've been on this thread, yeah?

But, if you insist, there is a real difference between an ironic statement and a sarcastic one… primarily in the rhetorical usage of such. And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).

Care to actually get back to the topic now? Or leave? One or the other.


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> You also read the part about it being pointless to continue here, yeah? And the request for you to actually have anything to do with the actual topic, as you haven't really done that in the 4 pages you've been on this thread, yeah?


It's so weird.  If I haven't been on topic... then you also...  no.  That can't be right. 


> But, if you insist, there is a real difference between an ironic statement and a sarcastic one… primarily in the rhetorical usage of such.


 ?? Of course there is a difference between the two.  Who's suggested otherwise?   I think GPSeymour understood.  I hope so.     Come on, Chris.  You're killing me here.  I provided definitions that were external.  I shared context.  It's okay if you have a different working definition of the term, that's unique to you.  But the words mean something to other people.

Kind of like how words are borrowed from other cultures and then as the two cultures blend, they take on new meanings.  Like, jujutsu... or jiu jitsu.  

So, to bring this back full circle.  You have a unique understanding of the term "sarcasm."  You think it means something that is different from how other people use it.  You disagree not just with me, but with any dictionary I was able to find, and with common usage of the terms. 

You might actually be correct within your local context.  People you know and who are around you might also misunderstand the term and misuse it.  But over time, as this usage becomes commonplace, the definition of the word evolves.  So, while it will certainly continue to mean what people understand it to mean, your variation may become an understood definition. 

This is what happens with words like sushi or karate or jujutsu or nijutsu or all kinds of other terms.  As I explained in detail in other threads, the Brazilians aren't misusing or even misspelling the word Jiu-Jitsu.  It's a Portuguese word.  The confusion on your part (at the time, at least) is in believing it is a Japanese word.  It's not. 


> And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).


This is irony, for what it's worth.  But I'm pretty sure you don't understand why, because you still don't understand the relationship between sarcasm and irony.





> Care to actually get back to the topic now? Or leave? One or the other.


Says Chris Parker after yet another post that was off topic.


----------



## Jenna

@Steve, @Chris Parker, would it be ok if I could direct you both back to topic or away from the precipice of personal remarks? I worry the experience, thoughts and opinions of you both are too valuable to waste in debating what is not relevant to this topic or even forum.. please..


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> We covered this a while back, if they are deliberately, and knowingly presenting themselves as a historical tradition, all the while being aware that they're not, that's fraud. However, in this case, we have a group who are presenting what they think Japanese jujutsu is like… sadly, they have nowhere near the requisite exposure or understanding to know just how foolish they look. In other words, they're not so much frauds, as fools.



They are deliberately claiming they are teaching Japanese jujitsu.

Are they lying?

Because if they are not lying then they are doing Japanese jujitsu. Via. 

Wait for it.

Anecdotal evidence.

 Because it it pretty silly  to assume a whole style just dosent realise what their style is.

Maybe this isn't the forum for you I hear that there are other forums that will actively let you fraud bust.

You would get on fine there.


----------



## oaktree

Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?


----------



## Tames D

Chris Parker said:


> And no, I'm not saying that Americans are stupid, more that it seems to be a cultural gap, and one of the big ones between you guys and the British (and us, really).


I'm so glad you cleared that up, because as an American, I was feeling very insulted. But the new, "Kinder, Gentler Me", let it go (thanks Jenna )
Can't speak for the rest of us.


----------



## Steve

oaktree said:


> Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?


What language are they speaking? 

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is already mostly translated into English for native speakers.   For example, we call it a Rear Naked Choke.  In Japanese, or at least in Judo, it's called Hadaka-jime (裸絞め).  In Portuguese, they call it Mata Leão.

I would really be curious to know whether a Japanese BJJ player refers to the RNC as Hadaka-jime, or does the technique have a different name because it's from BJJ?  Anyone here familiar enough with BJJ in Japan to know?


----------



## drop bear

oaktree said:


> Something I always wondered, if someone studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and was Japanese and renamed everything using Japanese terms to describe everything would it still be called Brazilian jiu-jitsu or kosen judo?



You would sort of get an amalgam. And so mabye get a name change or mabye not. Bjj uses a mash of Portuguese Japanese and English. 

Or as my bjj instructor once said. "Not sure what you call it in English but we call it a triangle"

It is different with a style that evolves. People from different styles and cultures make up the terminology.

So an omapalada is Portuguese.
A wizzer is American.
kesa-gatame. Is Japanese.
Chin in eye is Australian.

But you will hear all of these terms used in the beej.


----------



## drop bear

Tames D said:


> I'm so glad you cleared that up, because as an American, I was feeling very insulted. But the new, "Kinder, Gentler Me", let it go (thanks Jenna )
> Can't speak for the rest of us.



Yeah those cultural gaps can be a big factor. Like the one between Australians and the Japanese.

(I fully admit I have no moral high ground)


----------



## oaktree

Steve said:


> What language are they speaking?
> 
> Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is already mostly translated into English for native speakers.   For example, we call it a Rear Naked Choke.  In Japanese, or at least in Judo, it's called Hadaka-jime (裸絞め).  In Portuguese, they call it Mata Leão.
> 
> I would really be curious to know whether a Japanese BJJ player refers to the RNC as Hadaka-jime, or does the technique have a different name because it's from BJJ?  Anyone here familiar enough with BJJ in Japan to know?


If they spoke only Japanese it would most likely be hadaka  jime or Rncu or rearu nakedto choku something like that I doubt it would be rear naked choke


----------



## Chris Parker

For gods sakes… 



Steve said:


> It's so weird.  If I haven't been on topic... then you also...  no.  That can't be right.



I've been responding to the bizarre ideas you've been putting forth, trying to knock them out. You've continued to push out of place ideas, no matter the correction you've received. This ain't on me, Steve.



Steve said:


> ?? Of course there is a difference between the two.  Who's suggested otherwise?   I think GPSeymour understood.  I hope so.     Come on, Chris.  You're killing me here.  I provided definitions that were external.  I shared context.  It's okay if you have a different working definition of the term, that's unique to you.  But the words mean something to other people.



Hardly unique to me, Steve… just not the American understanding of irony and sarcasm… besides which, if you were genuinely being sarcastic, or genuinely felt you were being ironic, it defeats the purpose of even having posted in the first place. If you don't see that, I stand by my assessment that you genuinely have little grasp of either concept. Personally, I feel that you are trying to cover up now, as none of the explanations actually make any sense at all. But, again, this is really all completely besides the point… and I'm only going to address one more aspect of it.



Steve said:


> Kind of like how words are borrowed from other cultures and then as the two cultures blend, they take on new meanings.  Like, jujutsu... or jiu jitsu.



This takes us back to the idea of loan words, and whether they are considered "native language"… no matter how you look at it, despite the fact that it has entered the popular lexicon, it is not a Portuguese, nor an English word. At best, it is a Japanese loan-word in those languages… but even that is completely besides the point here.

I'm going to say this once more.

This is the JAPANESE MARTIAL ARTS forum. Not the BJJ one. Not the Western Arts one. The Japanese arts one. If you don't want to discuss Japanese arts, in their Japanese context, you have no place here.



Steve said:


> So, to bring this back full circle.  You have a unique understanding of the term "sarcasm."  You think it means something that is different from how other people use it.  You disagree not just with me, but with any dictionary I was able to find, and with common usage of the terms.
> 
> You might actually be correct within your local context.  People you know and who are around you might also misunderstand the term and misuse it.  But over time, as this usage becomes commonplace, the definition of the word evolves.  So, while it will certainly continue to mean what people understand it to mean, your variation may become an understood definition.



Not unique, Steve. Just not American. You do get that you guys aren't the only ones in the world, yeah?



Steve said:


> This is what happens with words like sushi or karate or jujutsu or nijutsu or all kinds of other terms.  As I explained in detail in other threads, the Brazilians aren't misusing or even misspelling the word Jiu-Jitsu.  It's a Portuguese word.  The confusion on your part (at the time, at least) is in believing it is a Japanese word.  It's not.



No matter what you think in your little corner, this is the Japanese martial arts area… and yes, here, Jujutsu is absolutely a Japanese word. The confusion on your part is that you think the opinion of outsiders means anything to this.

Most importantly, though, even this is not even close to the topic of this thread. Either address it, or move on.



Steve said:


> This is irony, for what it's worth.  But I'm pretty sure you don't understand why, because you still don't understand the relationship between sarcasm and irony.



No, Steve, that was not irony at all. Not by a long shot.

But hey, don't take my word for it. Googling "American's understand irony" and you'll get a wide range of hits… here's one of the first I found:
Here's The Real Reason Why Americans Don't Get Irony








Steve said:


> Says Chris Parker after yet another post that was off topic.



Two calls to get back on topic, and one aside to deal with your further comments, and you are calling that off topic? Compared to your posts? Seriously?



Jenna said:


> @Steve, @Chris Parker, would it be ok if I could direct you both back to topic or away from the precipice of personal remarks? I worry the experience, thoughts and opinions of you both are too valuable to waste in debating what is not relevant to this topic or even forum.. please..



J, I'm trying… 



drop bear said:


> They are deliberately claiming they are teaching Japanese jujitsu.
> 
> Are they lying?



Misinformed. Bradshaw, potentially, was lying.



drop bear said:


> Because if they are not lying then they are doing Japanese jujitsu. Via.
> 
> Wait for it.
> 
> Anecdotal evidence.



What anecdotal evidence?!? Do you even know what you're saying?



drop bear said:


> Because it it pretty silly  to assume a whole style just dosent realise what their style is.



No. No, you don't know what you're saying.

For the record, no, it's not "pretty silly" to assume anything of the kind. Ashida Kim's and Frank Dux's students often don't realise that they're not doing a Japanese art, let alone the ninjutsu it's claimed to be… it's just a matter of the people  involved not having the education to be able to recognise it.

It's actually a fairly common phenomena… people train in something, and are told that it is a particular thing (Japanese jujutsu, in this case). As a result, the only major reference point they have is what they are taught in that class… and they seize on the idea that what they're doing is what they're told it is… so they only identify similarities in other systems, and ignore the differences. I've brought up a friend of mine before, who teaches a particular system of what he has been taught is, and believes is, a very traditional art based on classical Japanese systems. Problem is, it's not. It's a modern, Western creation invented in the 50's in England. But he has an interest in classical Japanese traditions, is a member of a number of Koryu pages on Facebook, and travels to Japan once a year, including training in small amounts in some of the classical systems there… and, despite the fact that there is plenty of information to show him that his art is not actually related to classical Japanese traditions, he sees only the more tenuous similarities, and ignores the discrepancies.

With your group, the problems and discrepancies are even more overt than with my friends system… to the point of calling it "Tai Jitsu Ryu", which is just screaming the problems. But, for those there, it's all they know of "Japanese Jujutsu" (as with yourself)… so yeah, they don't realise what their style is. The same way you didn't realise that what you did was not Japanese Jujutsu in anything other than an illegitimately appropriated name.



drop bear said:


> Maybe this isn't the forum for you I hear that there are other forums that will actively let you fraud bust.
> 
> You would get on fine there.



Once again, you really don't get what fraud busting is.



drop bear said:


> Yeah those cultural gaps can be a big factor. Like the one between Australians and the Japanese.
> 
> (I fully admit I have no moral high ground)



You have no high ground at all, moral or otherwise, especially in this arena. Because, again, this lunatic idea you can't let go of is a false criteria that you don't understand in the first place.

Okay, can we get past all this now, and actually discuss what traditional Jujutsu entails, as per the OP (not that I expect him to take much on board), or just let the thread die?


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Misinformed. Bradshaw, potentially, was lying.



Do you know what fraud busting is? 

Pretty sure you cant just call people liers.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> You have no high ground at all, moral or otherwise, especially in this arena. Because, again, this lunatic idea you can't let go of is a false criteria that you don't understand in the first place.
> 
> Okay, can we get past all this now, and actually discuss what traditional Jujutsu entails, as per the OP (not that I expect him to take much on board), or just let the thread die?



That you have to be Japanese to understand Japanese culture. And so therefore to authentically represent it? 

Or you can instead teach Japanese jujitsu without worrying about authentically representing it.


----------



## Steve

YouTube?  That's funny.  Particularly as Alanis morrisette is Canadian.   Well, until she was in her 30s.


----------



## Hanzou

Interestingly, a buddy of mine just got back from Japan, and noted that whenever he mentioned "Jujutsu" to the Japanese, they thought he was talking about Bjj.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

As some people said earlier (I believe PGSmtih, Hanzou) I will side with Chris on this one.  His knowledge in this area is sound and very, very good!  He is an "expert" in this area.

Unfortunately, not everyone on this thread understands this area as well!

So let's look at one of the crux or the recent conversation on this thread:

If someone, somewhere along the line a non-Japanese learns some Japanese Jujutsu and then mixes it with whatever we shall say some wrestling and boxing and creates a new name for their system such as DoDo JuJitsu and they keep the trappings of a gi, some words, etc.  They live in xyz country but it is not Japan.  They are not Japanese.  It is not Japanese Jujutsu anymore but their interpretation of it.  Does it have Japanese trapping, technique, etc. sure but the art because it has added boxing, wrestling it is not Japanese.  *It is a mix, eclectic and if done well it may be an actually great system*.  However, that doesn't make it a Japanese system.  It is not found in Japan.  Nor would it be truthful for them to really advertise it as such.

Japanese martial systems are divided into two categories.  Koryu or pre-Meiji Restoration and Gendai or founded at the beginning or after the Meiji Restoration.  The Koryu systems are actually listed in the _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.  It is a fairly comprehensive list.   _ Gendai Budo or modern budo are systems established after the meiji restoration started.  Judo, Karate, aikido to name just a few are Gendai Budo.  Is BJJ a Gendai Budo and a Japanese system?  It wears a gi, so it has some trappings, it is derived from Judo, so it has a Japanese lineage.  However, it was founded by a Brazilian in Brazil and it has evolved so I would not include it as a Gendai Budo.  It is distinctly Brazilian now.  I personally know of no BJJ instructors that would refer to their martial system as a Japanese system.  *Derived yes but now distinctly Brazilian*!  It is a Brazilian martial art and there is a lot of pride in that!

Now let's move forward and get rid of the pot shots at each other.

*This forum is for Japanese Jujutsu/Judo and is in the Japanese Martial Arts area.  Let's talk about Japanese martial arts from the perspective of what the OP wanted or what makes up Japanese Jujutsu!*


----------



## Steve

I'm with Chris on this one, too.  Truly, he's an expert


----------



## Chris Parker

With deference to Brian's post above (thanks for that, Brian), and frankly ignoring Steve's… whatever he's posting… there is still something that apparently needs to be clarified… again.

Sigh… 



drop bear said:


> Do you know what fraud busting is?



Apparently a fair bit better than you do, yes.



drop bear said:


> Pretty sure you cant just call people liers.



That's not really what fraud busting is about. If someone is patently doing one a particular thing, it's not fraud busting to make the observation as to what they're doing… nor is it necessarily fraud busting to simply say someone is lying… particularly if such a statement can be backed up. I might add that I haven't said that Barry is lying, just that he might be (knowingly) misrepresenting what he offers.

Fraud busting is more of a pursuant attack on the credibility of someone, regardless of the credibility of the attack, and the rule was instigated primarily to prevent opening the site (and Bob at the time) to highly annoying and costly law suits from a number of frauds who do get rather sue-happy whenever called on their BS. So no, it's not fraud busting to make the observation that a patently Western-created system is not a Japanese one… okay?



drop bear said:


> That you have to be Japanese to understand Japanese culture. And so therefore to authentically represent it?



Look, I'm getting a little tired of saying this over and over again, so if you continue with this line of lunacy, it'll probably get reported for trolling, okay?

No. There is no statement, belief, comment, intimation, or anything of the kind from anyone except you. There has never been a claim from anyone here that being Japanese was required, or even that a Japanese martial art, being defined as a martial art from Japan, required anything like the person discussing it to be Japanese, or that the person teaching it needed to be Japanese to "authentically represent (Japanese culture)".

Get this frankly idiotic idea out of your head. That's the only place it's been.



drop bear said:


> Or you can instead teach Japanese jujitsu without worrying about authentically representing it.



Anyone can teach Japanese Jujutsu, provided they've actually learnt it first. That's it. Forget this bizarre idea of "authentically representing it", as frankly, you don't have the first clue what that would even entail in the first place. Two of the best teachers of such systems here in Melbourne are Westerners… one is Australian, the other an English ex-patriate… both teaching very different systems (one classed as jujutsu, the other a sogo bujutsu system with a yawara [jujutsu] syllabus incorporated). Then again, I've known of Japanese "instructors" who are just the opposite… making up highly dubious systems, and going about as far against the ideals and traits of Japanese arts as they could.

So, if you could get past your very false ideas, and accept that you don't really know what you're talking about here, perhaps we could move on.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

In the interests of clear communication, I'm going to side with Chris, Brian, and others in saying that an art should only be referred to as "Japanese xyz" if that particular style was actually created in Japan.

"Traditional" we can argue over endlessly, because the term gets used in very different ways by different people and the traditions in question may be 5 years old or 500 years old.

"Jujutsu" is a family of arts which at this point includes systems created all over the world. Most of the jujutsu systems created in the West don't have a lot of resemblance to the koryu arts, but generally at least part of their ancestry goes back to Japan (most often via Judo). Given that ancestry, I have no problem with those arts being called jujutsu (or jiu-jitsu).

For purposes of clarity, though, it only makes sense to reserve the term "Japanese jujutsu" for jujutsu systems which were created in Japan. If you want to describe an art by its nationality, then jujutsu systems created  in America can be called "American jujutsu". Systems created in Britain can be called "British jujutsu" The art created in Brazil can be called "Brazilian jiu-jitsu".

(Not to say there can't be fuzzy cases. Danzan Ryu was created by a native born Japanese who was living in Hawaii at the time, with occasional visits back to Japan. I suppose it wouldn't be unreasonable to call that "Japanese-American jujutsu".)

I think most of the instructors teaching western jujutsu systems while referring to it as "Japanese jujutsu" are not committing any sort of deliberate fraud. They just aren't that knowledgeable about the history of their art and its predecessors. That isn't uncommon at all in the martial arts world. Most martial artists have a history passed down to them which is more myth than fact.


----------



## Jameswhelan

Tony Dismukes said:


> In the interests of clear communication, I'm going to side with Chris, Brian, and others in saying that an art should only be referred to as "Japanese xyz" if that particular style was actually created in Japan.
> 
> "Traditional" we can argue over endlessly, because the term gets used in very different ways by different people and the traditions in question may be 5 years old or 500 years old.
> 
> "Jujutsu" is a family of arts which at this point includes systems created all over the world. Most of the jujutsu systems created in the West don't have a lot of resemblance to the koryu arts, but generally at least part of their ancestry goes back to Japan (most often via Judo). Given that ancestry, I have no problem with those arts being called jujutsu (or jiu-jitsu).
> 
> For purposes of clarity, though, it only makes sense to reserve the term "Japanese jujutsu" for jujutsu systems which were created in Japan. If you want to describe an art by its nationality, then jujutsu systems created  in America can be called "American jujutsu". Systems created in Britain can be called "British jujutsu" The art created in Brazil can be called "Brazilian jiu-jitsu".
> 
> (Not to say there can't be fuzzy cases. Danzan Ryu was created by a native born Japanese who was living in Hawaii at the time, with occasional visits back to Japan. I suppose it wouldn't be unreasonable to call that "Japanese-American jujutsu".)
> 
> I think most of the instructors teaching western jujutsu systems while referring to it as "Japanese jujutsu" are not committing any sort of deliberate fraud. They just aren't that knowledgeable about the history of their art and its predecessors. That isn't uncommon at all in the martial arts world. Most martial artists have a history passed down to them which is more myth than fact.



When someone says 'Japanese jujutsu', what they mean is 'jujutsu that isn't Brazillian jiu jitsu'. Most people aren't bothered with the apparent nuance that only a jujutsu that comes from Japan in the totality of its form qualifies to be called 'Japanese jujutsu'. For most people, Jujutsu comes from the samurai and that's good enough for them. Insisting on not seeing it as most people see it is gate-keeping and playing the koryu police - its deliberately bad communication and this thread is the result.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think most of the instructors teaching western jujutsu systems while referring to it as "Japanese jujutsu" are not committing any sort of deliberate fraud. They just aren't that knowledgeable about the history of their art and its predecessors. That isn't uncommon at all in the martial arts world. Most martial artists have a history passed down to them which is more myth than fact.



I think there's also the issue of folks who develop a system based upon some Jujutsu system that originated in Japan. If the new system was created in the US, one could most reasonably argue it's an American Jujutsu system. Some, however, tend to classify based on origin of the traditions and techniques, and those folks would call the new system a Japanese Jujutsu sysem. I don't have a big issue with either, though the AJ nomenclature is arguably more accurate.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Jameswhelan said:


> When someone says 'Japanese jujutsu', what they mean is 'jujutsu that isn't Brazillian jiu jitsu'. Most people aren't bothered with the apparent nuance that only a jujutsu that comes from Japan in the totality of its form qualifies to be called 'Japanese jujutsu'. For most people, Jujutsu comes from the samurai and that's good enough for them. Insisting on not seeing it as most people see it is gate-keeping and playing the koryu police - its deliberately bad communication and this thread is the result.


This is a good point. With the surge in popularity of BJJ, simply saying "Jujutsu" isn't clear, because many will think it's BJJ. Adding "Japanese" to the term can be a simple shorthand way of clarifying that it's not the Judo-based BJJ, but is based on the original Japanese arts called Jujutsu.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Jameswhelan said:


> When someone says 'Japanese jujutsu', what they mean is 'jujutsu that isn't Brazillian jiu jitsu'.


If by "someone" you mean "people who don't know much about the history of jujutsu", then you might be right. By the same token, some people might use "Kung Fu" to describe all striking arts which aren't western boxing.

If someone is honestly interested in understanding the distinction, it doesn't take long to absorb the idea that (for example) Shingitai Jujutsu is no more closely related to Japanese jujutsu than BJJ is.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> This is a good point. With the surge in popularity of BJJ, simply saying "Jujutsu" isn't clear, because many will think it's BJJ. Adding "Japanese" to the term can be a simple shorthand way of clarifying that it's not the Judo-based BJJ, but is based on the original Japanese arts called Jujutsu.


Actually, most of the modern western jujutsu systems aren't directly derived from Japanese jujutsu systems any more than BJJ is. Like BJJ, they are hybrids built on a foundation of Judo and some other arts. (BJJ has a Judo base with some Sombo and Catch Wrestling mixed in. A typical American jujutsu system might have a Judo base with some Karate, Aikido, and a bit of Arnis, for example.)


----------



## Steve

Tony Dismukes said:


> If by "someone" you mean "people who don't know much about the history of jujutsu", then you might be right. By the same token, some people might use "Kung Fu" to describe all striking arts which aren't western boxing.
> 
> If someone is honestly interested in understanding the distinction, it doesn't take long to absorb the idea that (for example) Shingitai Jujutsu is no more closely related to Japanese jujutsu than BJJ is.


Isn't this the thing?  The distinction is academic.  For some it matters a great deal.  But it isn't a practical distinction.  

Japanese massage means something very specific and whether it is actually Japanese is academic and, I would huess, unimportant to the guys looking for one.  They don't care if it's from Japan.  Only that its "Japanese."


----------



## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Isn't this the thing?  The distinction is academic.  For some it matters a great deal.  But it isn't a practical distinction.
> 
> Japanese massage means something very specific and whether it is actually Japanese is academic and, I would huess, unimportant to the guys looking for one.  They don't care if it's from Japan.  Only that its "Japanese."



The difference I feel you are talking about here is the difference between what is real and what is perceived which leads me to your statement being more of

They don't care if it's from Japan.  Only that they believe it is "Japanese."

That does not make it Japanese.


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> The difference I feel you are talking about here is the difference between what is real and what is perceived which leads me to your statement being more of
> 
> They don't care if it's from Japan.  Only that they believe it is "Japanese."
> 
> That does not make it Japanese.


Yes.  Exactly!!  They don't care if it's authentic.  They only care that its what they expect it to be.  Further, they may be unhappy if they get something authentic because it isn't what they expect.

Edit.  Just to be clear I think its not about real vs perceived as much as its authentic or not and whether that matters at all in context.


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> With deference to Brian's post above (thanks for that, Brian), and frankly ignoring Steve's… whatever he's posting… there is still something that apparently needs to be clarified… again.
> 
> Sigh…
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently a fair bit better than you do, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> That's not really what fraud busting is about. If someone is patently doing one a particular thing, it's not fraud busting to make the observation as to what they're doing… nor is it necessarily fraud busting to simply say someone is lying… particularly if such a statement can be backed up. I might add that I haven't said that Barry is lying, just that he might be (knowingly) misrepresenting what he offers.
> 
> Fraud busting is more of a pursuant attack on the credibility of someone, regardless of the credibility of the attack, and the rule was instigated primarily to prevent opening the site (and Bob at the time) to highly annoying and costly law suits from a number of frauds who do get rather sue-happy whenever called on their BS. So no, it's not fraud busting to make the observation that a patently Western-created system is not a Japanese one… okay?
> 
> 
> 
> Look, I'm getting a little tired of saying this over and over again, so if you continue with this line of lunacy, it'll probably get reported for trolling, okay?
> 
> No. There is no statement, belief, comment, intimation, or anything of the kind from anyone except you. There has never been a claim from anyone here that being Japanese was required, or even that a Japanese martial art, being defined as a martial art from Japan, required anything like the person discussing it to be Japanese, or that the person teaching it needed to be Japanese to "authentically represent (Japanese culture)".
> 
> Get this frankly idiotic idea out of your head. That's the only place it's been.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone can teach Japanese Jujutsu, provided they've actually learnt it first. That's it. Forget this bizarre idea of "authentically representing it", as frankly, you don't have the first clue what that would even entail in the first place. Two of the best teachers of such systems here in Melbourne are Westerners… one is Australian, the other an English ex-patriate… both teaching very different systems (one classed as jujutsu, the other a sogo bujutsu system with a yawara [jujutsu] syllabus incorporated). Then again, I've known of Japanese "instructors" who are just the opposite… making up highly dubious systems, and going about as far against the ideals and traits of Japanese arts as they could.
> 
> So, if you could get past your very false ideas, and accept that you don't really know what you're talking about here, perhaps we could move on.


Calm down, son.


----------



## pgsmith

Steve said:


> Yes.  Exactly!!  They don't care if it's authentic.  They only care that its what they expect it to be.  Further, they may be unhappy if they get something authentic because it isn't what they expect.
> 
> Edit.  Just to be clear I think its not about real vs perceived as much as its authentic or not and whether that matters at all in context.



  But you're missing the point in your dogged drive to be correct and express your opinion. The point is that *those of us that contribute regularly to this forum don't care what others expect*. This forum is for _Japanese martial arts_, specifically Jujutsu / Judo. It isn't labeled "martial arts that others may think are Japanese" or "martial arts that use some Japanese words". It is labeled "Japanese Martial Arts". Therefore we practice, and are interested in discussing, legitimate schools of Japanese  jujutsu / judo, not everyone else's ideas of what they perceive to be Japanese. If you tell us you practice Bob's Genuine and Authentic Samurai Jiujitsu that Bob invented complete with floor grappling and head kicks, we'll tell you that it isn't appropriate for this forum since it's not a Japanese jujutsu school, no matter what you believe.

  So, there it is. You may genuinely be correct in your statements regarding what others may think their art is, but that still doesn't mean that it's appropriate for this forum in my opinion.


----------



## Steve

I appreciate that you acknowledge we are all simply expressing our opinions.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

pgsmith said:


> But you're missing the point in your dogged drive to be correct and express your opinion. The point is that *those of us that contribute regularly to this forum don't care what others expect*. This forum is for _Japanese martial arts_, specifically Jujutsu / Judo. It isn't labeled "martial arts that others may think are Japanese" or "martial arts that use some Japanese words". It is labeled "Japanese Martial Arts". Therefore we practice, and are interested in discussing, legitimate schools of Japanese  jujutsu / judo, not everyone else's ideas of what they perceive to be Japanese. If you tell us you practice Bob's Genuine and Authentic Samurai Jiujitsu that Bob invented complete with floor grappling and head kicks, we'll tell you that it isn't appropriate for this forum since it's not a Japanese jujutsu school, no matter what you believe.
> 
> So, there it is. You may genuinely be correct in your statements regarding what others may think their art is, but that still doesn't mean that it's appropriate for this forum in my opinion.



*Absolutely!*  This forum is for Japanese martial arts.  Martial arts that are actually found in Japan.  If they are Koryu they are found in the _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten or if they are a Gendai Budo they are found in Japan.  Not just what someone thinks is a Japanese art.  _


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Here's a point of interest. What of arts that originated in Japan, and have died there and continue (in mostly the same form) elsewhere?


----------



## Steve

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Absolutely!*  This forum is for Japanese martial arts.  Martial arts that are actually found in Japan.  If they are Koryu they are found in the _Bugei Ryuha Daijiten or if they are a Gendai Budo they are found in Japan.  Not just what someone thinks is a Japanese art.  _


thanks, Brian. I appreciate your opinion, and will remind you guys that what is interesting to me need not be interesting to you.   And vice versa.   But I'm pretty sure there are no rules compelling you to read threads that aren't of interest to you.   This thread was not, from the start, about strictly Japanese jujutsu, and at any point a mod could move it.   However, they (you) did not.

You guys can respond to the content of my posts, or not.   But this lame attempt at ganging up is just a little pitiful.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

gpseymour said:


> Here's a point of interest. What of arts that originated in Japan, and have died there and continue (in mostly the same form) elsewhere?



That would be a very interesting thread and or continuation to some thing useful with this thread.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Steve said:


> thanks, Brian. I appreciate your opinion, and will remind you guys that what is interesting to me need not be interesting to you.   And vice versa.   But I'm pretty sure there are no rules compelling you to read threads that aren't of interest to you.   This thread was not, from the start, about strictly Japanese jujutsu, and at any point a mod could move it.   However, they (you) did not.
> 
> You guys can respond to the content of my posts, or not.   But this lame attempt at ganging up is just a little pitiful.



The attempt is to steer this thread into some thing useful if it moves forward.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That would be a very interesting thread and or continuation to some thing useful with this thread.


I thought so, and it would be an interesting intellectual discussion for me, since that's the case with NGA. The dojo in Chitose closed back in the late 60's or early 70's, if I recall correctly. So far as we know, Nara Tominosuke (the hereditary _soke_, if I'm using the term properly) taught privately for a short time afterwards, but never created any new instructors in Japan. We have found no evidence of the art continuing there. In the US, Richard Bowe (under the direction of Mr. Nara) started teaching in the mid-60's, and has a legacy of many instructors starting schools since then. Our art's name - as used by the founder Morita Shodo - actually contains the word Japanese (Nihon). When NGA was brought to the US, there was (according to Mr. Bowe) some curriculum reorganization but no change to techniques.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I thought so, and it would be an interesting intellectual discussion for me, since that's the case with NGA. The dojo in Chitose closed back in the late 60's or early 70's, if I recall correctly. So far as we know, Nara Tominosuke (the hereditary _soke_, if I'm using the term properly) taught privately for a short time afterwards, but never created any new instructors in Japan. We have found no evidence of the art continuing there. In the US, Richard Bowe (under the direction of Mr. Nara) started teaching in the mid-60's, and has a legacy of many instructors starting schools since then. Our art's name - as used by the founder Morita Shodo - actually contains the word Japanese (Nihon). When NGA was brought to the US, there was (according to Mr. Bowe) some curriculum reorganization but no change to techniques.


Interesting case. I'd be inclined to say that it still counts as a Japanese art. However as time passes and generations of American teachers leave their stamp on the curriculum and teaching methods, perhaps it will become more of a Japanese-American art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting case. I'd be inclined to say that it still counts as a Japanese art. However as time passes and generations of American teachers leave their stamp on the curriculum and teaching methods, perhaps it will become more of a Japanese-American art.


I'd agree. Again, I think it depends on how we use the terms. If we use it to identify the origin of an art, then NGA remains a "Japanese" art. If we use the terms to define current state, then NGA eventually becomes "Japanese-American", then someday just "American" (in spite of the "Nihon" in the name).

It could be reasonably argued that the mainline of NGA is Japanese, while Shojin-ryu is Japanese-American.


----------



## Chris Parker

Jameswhelan said:


> When someone says 'Japanese jujutsu', what they mean is 'jujutsu that isn't Brazillian jiu jitsu'. Most people aren't bothered with the apparent nuance that only a jujutsu that comes from Japan in the totality of its form qualifies to be called 'Japanese jujutsu'. For most people, Jujutsu comes from the samurai and that's good enough for them. Insisting on not seeing it as most people see it is gate-keeping and playing the koryu police - its deliberately bad communication and this thread is the result.



Frankly, James, those people are irrelevant to this. It really doesn't matter what people unschooled in the matter mean, one of the main purposes of asking in a specific forum dedicated to a particular subsection of a topic (in this case, Japanese martial arts, further clarified down to Judo and Jujutsu systems) is that we don't just go with the ideas and beliefs held by lay people with no exposure. Honestly a big part of this is correcting such misinformation and misunderstandings.

Honestly, the only insistence has been that, when in a forum dedicated to discussion of Japanese martial arts, we actually reference and discuss Japanese martial arts. Without  sticking to even that simple, basic guide, there's no reason to have a dedicated forum. It's nothing to do with being koryu police, as you should well recognise…you've been around long enough to know that… and have acted as "gate-keeper" often enough yourself.



Steve said:


> Isn't this the thing?  The distinction is academic.  For some it matters a great deal.  But it isn't a practical distinction.



That's the thing, Steve, the distinction is just as much practical as it is academic… in fact, I would say it's more practical than academic. It actually goes a bit deeper than a mere geographic origin… and as far as "for some it matters", it should matter here more than anywhere else. This is, after all, a forum dedicated to discussion of precisely this. 



Steve said:


> Japanese massage means something very specific and whether it is actually Japanese is academic and, I would huess, unimportant to the guys looking for one.  They don't care if it's from Japan.  Only that its "Japanese."



It doesn't matter whether or not Japanese massage is actually Japanese to some hypothetical guys somewhere you've made up. It really doesn't. That's not the topic, it's not the point, and the people you're discussing don't exist.

Now, if they were on a forum of massage therapies, and were engaging on a thread in an area dedicated specifically to Japanese massage therapies, including reiki, shiatsu and so on… and people started talking about sports-style remedial massage as if it was the same thing, then I'm pretty sure the guys wanting to actually discuss specifically Japanese massage therapies would have some interest in clarifying whether or not the sports massage was actually relevant to the sub forum.



Steve said:


> Yes.  Exactly!!  They don't care if it's authentic.  They only care that its what they expect it to be.  Further, they may be unhappy if they get something authentic because it isn't what they expect.
> 
> Edit.  Just to be clear I think its not about real vs perceived as much as its authentic or not and whether that matters at all in context.



"They" don't matter. "They" really don't. "They're" not informed. "They" don't know what is or isn't authentic, or why it's important or not. "They" are the ignorant, "they" are lay-people. We are not. We are the source and resource of accurate information. We are a specialist discussion area for specialised discussions. We don't pander to people who don't know and accommodate their uninformed opinions. Their opinions don't matter. They're not relevant.



Steve said:


> Calm down, son.



And you just couldn't help yourself… pity.



Steve said:


> I appreciate that you acknowledge we are all simply expressing our opinions.



Your opinions are irrelevant, though. That's the most important take-away you can have here, Steve… your opinion is irrelevant. You don't have the relevant understanding, knowledge, insight, experience, exposure, or expertise to have an informed opinion… and, when arguing about the relevance or accuracy of the proper classification of a specialist area, if your opinion is uninformed, it's frankly irrelevant.

I know we're all supposed to entertain the idea that everyone's entitled to their own opinions, but the reality is that, while you can have your own opinion, it does not automatically have the same value or weight simply because it's yours. 



Steve said:


> thanks, Brian. I appreciate your opinion, and will remind you guys that what is interesting to me need not be interesting to you.   And vice versa.



While true, it's also irrelevant. If you're not interested in a discussion of Japanese jujutsu (which is the area and topic of this thread), or in the accurate representation of correct classification of martial arts, then frankly, you're in the wrong place. What's of interest to us (in this thread and sub forum) need not be interesting to you… and, if it isn't, the question is… why are you here, arguing?



Steve said:


> But I'm pretty sure there are no rules compelling you to read threads that aren't of interest to you.



So… Brian, who trains in Japanese jujutsu based arts, is a moderator who is required to monitor heated threads (I think this qualifies), and has a genuine understanding of the subject shouldn't be compelled to read this thread, as you think it may be of no interest to him, but you, who have no experience, understanding, or knowledge, are arguing with people you openly acknowledge as having expertise in the area, and refuse to actually take on board what the topic is (pretty much the definition of you not having genuine interest), you should be here?

Is that really what you're saying?



Steve said:


> This thread was not, from the start, about strictly Japanese jujutsu, and at any point a mod could move it.   However, they (you) did not.



Huh?

The thread was specifically and deliberately put in the Japanese Martial Arts - Judo and Jujutsu sub forum by the OP (after deliberately posting his other threads in art-specific areas, most dominantly Wing Chun, showing that he did think about where he wanted the discussion to be focused), and asked specifically about "traditional JJ", including what is and is not involved, what the training is like (on his body), and so on… while an argument can be made that he came in with little to no understanding of what Japanese (or traditional) jujutsu is… but that's what we're here to help him understand.

But, because he doesn't use the specific name "Japanese Jujutsu" (for the record, this discussion started specifically because drop bear did use that exact term to describe a system which is not a Japanese art, and therefore not Japanese jujutsu), you think that, with no requests, no input from any member or the OP, and no reason that is represented in the thread itself, it should have been moved to a different forum? And you're blaming the mods for not enacting that move for no reason?



Steve said:


> You guys can respond to the content of my posts, or not.   But this lame attempt at ganging up is just a little pitiful.



There's no ganging up, Steve… you're simply out of your depth here, and we're pointing that out. Your stubborn refusal to understand and accept that is what has drawn this out.



gpseymour said:


> Here's a point of interest. What of arts that originated in Japan, and have died there and continue (in mostly the same form) elsewhere?



Interesting… I feel it's going to have a lot to do with how the art reacts to being outside of Japan (centrally). You could look at case-studies such as Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu… which is presently headed by Tobin Threadgill in the US. Mr Threadgill has taken a great amount of care and put in substantial effort to retain the "Japanese" aspect and "heart" of his system… which has therefore retained it's identity as a Japanese art. Ellis Amdur teaches a couple of Koryu systems, specifically Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu (which, intriguingly, has all of it's senior membership currently being Westerners… it's head is Kent Sorensen, in the role of Soke Dairi [representative soke]), and Araki Ryu. In the case of Araki Ryu, there is a tradition of "one domain, one ryu"… which means that he is simply the head of his own line of Araki Ryu… which is therefore based where he is (again, the US)… but remains completely Japanese in it's identity.

By the same token, I'd class Danzan Ryu as a Western (or American-Japanese hybrid) system. Henry Okazaki was a Japanese ex-pat who moved to Hawaii when he was 15 or 16, and started martial arts there. In 1924 (at about 34 years of age), he went back to Japan, and apparently trained in a number of other systems (interestingly, none of which seem to exist outside of Okazaki's stated history), returning to Hawaii in 1925 to found Danzan Ryu… it was created solely in the West, although ostensibly (potentially) based in some Japanese arts… but doesn't have the same character as most Japanese systems, so I'd say no there.

Ed Parker's Kempo system took most of it's basis from some basic karate, abandoned (or never had) a number of the more identifiable parts that would have put it with the Okinawan or Japanese systems, instead seeking to fill certain gaps with Mr Parker's own experiences on the streets of Hawaii, and with his own personal take on combative approaches, as well as his own physical limitations in skill and performance, and created a wholly new and purely Western variation on the karate previously learnt. Not Japanese at all, really a truly Western system… despite the historical ties.



gpseymour said:


> I thought so, and it would be an interesting intellectual discussion for me, since that's the case with NGA. The dojo in Chitose closed back in the late 60's or early 70's, if I recall correctly. So far as we know, Nara Tominosuke (the hereditary _soke_, if I'm using the term properly) taught privately for a short time afterwards, but never created any new instructors in Japan. We have found no evidence of the art continuing there. In the US, Richard Bowe (under the direction of Mr. Nara) started teaching in the mid-60's, and has a legacy of many instructors starting schools since then. Our art's name - as used by the founder Morita Shodo - actually contains the word Japanese (Nihon). When NGA was brought to the US, there was (according to Mr. Bowe) some curriculum reorganization but no change to techniques.



Yeah, the NGA is an interesting one… a non-Aikido (Ueshiba) form of Aikido tracing back to Yoshida Kotaro, who introduced Ueshiba to Takeda Sokaku in the first place… and whose son, Yoshida Kenji was the teacher of Don Angier and his Yanagi Ryu… quite an interesting group of systems there! The founder, Shodo Morita, trained in Daito Ryu under Yoshida (and Takeda), as well as Judo, Karate, and some other arts, and combined them in his form of Aikido without a connection to Ueshiba's art (directly). Today, as you noted, it's not still extant in Japan since Nara sensei passed away in the 70's, and (I believe) is really only found in the US.

What is most interesting in this context is that the art has clearly deviated from it's source schools to focus more on "Western" style attacks (jabs, hooks, side head locks etc), including in combinations, although that decision was one that Shodo Morita himself made, rather than an adaptation once finding itself in the US… so I'd not class it as a classical style, nor a particularly traditional one (although it does certainly retain hallmarks of each)… but when it comes to being a Japanese system… hmm. I'd say, so long as it stays close to the focus and emphasis of the original Japanese form, retaining the methodology and inherent "flavour" of being a Japanese art (not getting overly flashy, for example), then it will remain identifiable as a Japanese system… albeit one centred in the US. Time will tell how far it strays, though… and once it starts straying, it becomes a Western expression of a Japanese system… then a Western derivation of one… and finally, a Western system based on older Japanese methods. How long that takes can vary, of course… it could take a number of generations, or just one.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> That's not really what fraud busting is about. If someone is patently doing one a particular thing, it's not fraud busting to make the observation as to what they're doing… nor is it necessarily fraud busting to simply say someone is lying… particularly if such a statement can be backed up. I might add that I haven't said that Barry is lying, just that he might be (knowingly) misrepresenting what he offers.



Oh. See. I had a bit of a different impression there. See I was thinking you were accusing a style and a person of lying without evidence.

Instead you have doubts and they might be misrepresenting their style.

Which is more just an expression of an opinion. Without evidence.

So what we might do here is because I gave the example from the source itself. We will keep that as an example of Japanese jujitsu until you are more certain than doubt and maybes.

And we can both have a different idea on what consists of Japanese jujitsu based on our own experiences.


----------



## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> But you're missing the point in your dogged drive to be correct and express your opinion. The point is that *those of us that contribute regularly to this forum don't care what others expect*. This forum is for _Japanese martial arts_, specifically Jujutsu / Judo. It isn't labeled "martial arts that others may think are Japanese" or "martial arts that use some Japanese words". It is labeled "Japanese Martial Arts". Therefore we practice, and are interested in discussing, legitimate schools of Japanese  jujutsu / judo, not everyone else's ideas of what they perceive to be Japanese. If you tell us you practice Bob's Genuine and Authentic Samurai Jiujitsu that Bob invented complete with floor grappling and head kicks, we'll tell you that it isn't appropriate for this forum since it's not a Japanese jujutsu school, no matter what you believe.
> 
> So, there it is. You may genuinely be correct in your statements regarding what others may think their art is, but that still doesn't mean that it's appropriate for this forum in my opinion.



Then you need to have a method to discern legitimate martial art from a fraud.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> "They" don't matter. "They" really don't. "They're" not informed. "They" don't know what is or isn't authentic, or why it's important or not. "They" are the ignorant, "they" are lay-people. We are not. We are the source and resource of accurate information. We are a specialist discussion area for specialised discussions. We don't pander to people who don't know and accommodate their uninformed opinions. Their opinions don't matter. They're not relevant.



By the way. For those looking for any school of martial arts. Japanese or otherwise.

This. May be a big red flag in regards to your training environments.


----------



## pgsmith

drop bear said:


> Then you need to have a method to discern legitimate martial art from a fraud.



  Why would I possibly need that? The only reason I can think of to need that is if I was interested in joining a particular dojo. If that was the case, there are plenty of methods to research *any* martial art dojo to determine if they are "legitimate" or a fraud, depending of course upon an individual's own interpretation of what constitutes a "legitimate" martial art.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, the NGA is an interesting one… a non-Aikido (Ueshiba) form of Aikido tracing back to Yoshida Kotaro, who introduced Ueshiba to Takeda Sokaku in the first place… and whose son, Yoshida Kenji was the teacher of Don Angier and his Yanagi Ryu… quite an interesting group of systems there! The founder, Shodo Morita, trained in Daito Ryu under Yoshida (and Takeda), as well as Judo, Karate, and some other arts, and combined them in his form of Aikido without a connection to Ueshiba's art (directly). Today, as you noted, it's not still extant in Japan since Nara sensei passed away in the 70's, and (I believe) is really only found in the US.
> 
> What is most interesting in this context is that the art has clearly deviated from it's source schools to focus more on "Western" style attacks (jabs, hooks, side head locks etc), including in combinations, although that decision was one that Shodo Morita himself made, rather than an adaptation once finding itself in the US… so I'd not class it as a classical style, nor a particularly traditional one (although it does certainly retain hallmarks of each)… but when it comes to being a Japanese system… hmm. I'd say, so long as it stays close to the focus and emphasis of the original Japanese form, retaining the methodology and inherent "flavour" of being a Japanese art (not getting overly flashy, for example), then it will remain identifiable as a Japanese system… albeit one centred in the US. Time will tell how far it strays, though… and once it starts straying, it becomes a Western expression of a Japanese system… then a Western derivation of one… and finally, a Western system based on older Japanese methods. How long that takes can vary, of course… it could take a number of generations, or just one.



That's sort of my thoughts. My interpretation (Shojin-ryu), so far as I know, is farther from Morita's original art than what was taught by Mr. Bowe (what I refer to as "mainline NGA"). By your description, Shojin-ryu would be a Western expression of the Japanese system. That seems appropriate.


----------



## drop bear

pgsmith said:


> Why would I possibly need that? The only reason I can think of to need that is if I was interested in joining a particular dojo. If that was the case, there are plenty of methods to research *any* martial art dojo to determine if they are "legitimate" or a fraud, depending of course upon an individual's own interpretation of what constitutes a "legitimate" martial art.



You are making the distinction between legitimate arts an fraudulent ones.  Or as you said.  Japanese arts from those that think they are Japanese 

If we relied on individual interpretation. Then those that think they are Japanese ma.  Are Japanese ma.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh, for gods' sake… are you determined to look this stupid? Really?



drop bear said:


> Oh. See. I had a bit of a different impression there. See I was thinking you were accusing a style and a person of lying without evidence.



I never said anything about no evidence… in fact, I provided a fair bit in my initial comments when you brought Barry Bradshaw up.



drop bear said:


> Instead you have doubts and they might be misrepresenting their style.



I have doubts that any, other than Barry, is aware that what they're doing is not Japanese jujutsu… and, when it comes to Barry himself, I think he simply doesn't have the education to recognise it. He put together what he thought Japanese Jujutsu was like many years ago, despite never actually having any experience in it, and has just gone with that ever since.



drop bear said:


> Which is more just an expression of an opinion. Without evidence.



Oh, there's plenty of evidence. Sadly, you're frankly too uneducated to see it. But, if you want some, the fact that the Monash branch talk about how there were many schools of Jujutsu, and theirs is named "Tai Jitsu Ryu" is, bluntly, all the evidence required to make the call that they have never had a days education in Japanese anything.



drop bear said:


> So what we might do here is because I gave the example from the source itself. We will keep that as an example of Japanese jujitsu until you are more certain than doubt and maybes.



I have no doubt, there are no maybes, and your example has been shown to not be an accurate example of Japanese martial arts at all, let alone Japanese jujutsu since you first mentioned them.

Give it up. You don't know what you're talking about.



drop bear said:


> And we can both have a different idea on what consists of Japanese jujitsu based on our own experiences.



No.

This is not an "agree to disagree" situation. You can't just have an opinion of what Japanese Jujutsu is… if it's not Japanese, it fails the very first criteria. It's like me saying you need to breath in oxygen to live, and you saying "no, I think you need to breath in hydrochloric acid, because I heard from a guy that it's a good thing". It's not up for debate.



drop bear said:


> Then you need to have a method to discern legitimate martial art from a fraud.



We have a method. Frankly, we have many methods. But, when it comes to looking at the criteria for an art to legitimately be a Japanese Jujutsu system, it needs firstly to be Japanese… then we look at the Jujutsu portion. 



drop bear said:


> By the way. For those looking for any school of martial arts. Japanese or otherwise.
> 
> This. May be a big red flag in regards to your training environments.



How so? I'm saying that you, not having a clue what you're talking about, are not to be considered important when it comes to offering an opinion on what constitutes a Japanese martial tradition. That's like saying that a 3 year old, no matter how many toy planes they have, their opinion when it comes to flight paths, construction and build of airplanes, the properties of aerodynamics and so on is completely unimportant. And, really, we have no need or requirement to cater to the beliefs of three year olds.



drop bear said:


> You are making the distinction between legitimate arts an fraudulent ones.  Or as you said.  Japanese arts from those that think they are Japanese
> 
> If we relied on individual interpretation. Then those that think they are Japanese ma.  Are Japanese ma.



No.

It doesn't matter what they think they are, it matters what they are. Get that through your head.



gpseymour said:


> That's sort of my thoughts. My interpretation (Shojin-ryu), so far as I know, is farther from Morita's original art than what was taught by Mr. Bowe (what I refer to as "mainline NGA"). By your description, Shojin-ryu would be a Western expression of the Japanese system. That seems appropriate.



Yep, I'd go with that.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> You are making the distinction between legitimate arts an fraudulent ones.  Or as you said.  Japanese arts from those that think they are Japanese
> 
> If we relied on individual interpretation. Then those that think they are Japanese ma.  Are Japanese ma.


I'd see it more as a distinction between instructors who know the actual history of their arts and those who don't.

TKD is a totally legitimate martial art. It is not (as some practitioners believe) derived from 1000-year old native Korean arts. The flying kicks taught in many TKD schools were never (as some practitioners believe) used to knock cavalrymen off their horses.

The fact that some TKD instructors believe and promulgate these myths doesn't make TKD fraudulent. It just means those particular instructors are uncritically parroting bogus history that they honestly believe. Nevertheless, the fact that they honestly believe these things about TKD doesn't make them true. 

Modern western forms of jujutsu (including the kinds you described as "kind of a cross between judo aikido and karate" are legitimate martial arts. They are not "Japanese", in the sense that they were not created in Japan and they don't closely resemble the forms of jujutsu which were created in Japan.

The fact that many instructors of these western jujutsu styles describe them as "Japanese jujutsu" doesn't necessarily make them frauds. Many of them honestly believe that their arts were created in or are very close to arts which were created in Japan. They just aren't history experts.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> I never said anything about no evidence… in fact, I provided a fair bit in my initial comments when you brought Barry Bradshaw up




No that was your opinion.


----------



## Chris Parker

No, son. Your lack of education in this does not negate the evidence just because you can't recognise it.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'd see it more as a distinction between instructors who know the actual history of their arts and those who don't.
> 
> TKD is a totally legitimate martial art. It is not (as some practitioners believe) derived from 1000-year old native Korean arts. The flying kicks taught in many TKD schools were never (as some practitioners believe) used to knock cavalrymen off their horses.
> 
> The fact that some TKD instructors believe and promulgate these myths doesn't make TKD fraudulent. It just means those particular instructors are uncritically parroting bogus history that they honestly believe. Nevertheless, the fact that they honestly believe these things about TKD doesn't make them true.
> 
> Modern western forms of jujutsu (including the kinds you described as "kind of a cross between judo aikido and karate" are legitimate martial arts. They are not "Japanese", in the sense that they were not created in Japan and they don't closely resemble the forms of jujutsu which were created in Japan.
> 
> The fact that many instructors of these western jujutsu styles describe them as "Japanese jujutsu" doesn't necessarily make them frauds. Many of them honestly believe that their arts were created in or are very close to arts which were created in Japan. They just aren't history experts.



Well either they are fraudulent or I can use it as an example of Japanese jujitsu.

It seems pretty simple.

"What is jjj like?"

"I did jjj and it was like this."

Cut and dried. If Chris Parker does jjj and it was like something else. Fine. If he wants to flip out about it over 8 pages then also fine. 


I am not the one having the coronary over what is and isn't jujitsu.


----------



## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> No, son. Your lack of education in this does not negate the evidence just because you can't recognise it.



No the lack of evidence negates the evidence boy.


----------



## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> Well either they are fraudulent or I can use it as an example of Japanese jujitsu.



No, those are not the only two options. They are not Japanese jujutsu, therefore you cannot use it as an example, and as far as "fraudulent", no, they're most likely simply uninformed and are believing that that's what they do. It's not.



drop bear said:


> It seems pretty simple.
> 
> "What is jjj like?"
> 
> "I did jjj and it was like this."



It's only that simple if you actually did Japanese Jujutsu.



drop bear said:


> Cut and dried. If Chris Parker does jjj and it was like something else. Fine. If he wants to flip out about it over 8 pages then also fine.



No. You're still missing the actual discussion. It only works if both people actually trained in Japanese jujutsu.



drop bear said:


> I am not the one having the coronary over what is and isn't jujitsu.



No, you're the one refusing to listen to people who know what they're talking about.



drop bear said:


> No the lack of evidence negates the evidence boy.



The evidence is myriad. I gave a damning piece of it in post 153… if you can't see that as evidence, you simply don't have the first clue in this field. Which is the damn point.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

drop bear said:


> Well either they are fraudulent or I can use it as an example of Japanese jujitsu.


False dichotomy. "Fraudulent" indicates intent to deceive. Someone can be mistaken without being fraudulent.

I'll give another analogy, this time a personal example.

Growing up, I was told that I was 1/16th Cherokee, by way of a great-great-grandmother.  Having no reason to doubt that, I would include it when asked about my ancestry - French, Scottish, English, and 1/16th Cherokee.

Recently, I've discovered that this claim - specifically 1/16th Cherokee is a relatively common story among white Americans and is more often than not untrue. Sometimes it was to cover up black ancestry, sometimes it was just for the romance of having a perceived link to Native American culture, sometimes it's unclear where the story originated.

If someone did a detailed genealogical investigation of my family and discovered that this Cherokee great-great-grandmother never existed, does that mean I was a fraud every time I told someone I was 1/16th Cherokee? No, it just means I was mistaken.

Likewise, someone who teaches a western style of jujutsu and says that it is "Japanese" (in the sense of being an art created in Japan) can be honestly mistaken without being a fraud.


----------



## Chris Parker

Goddsdammit… 

@Steve 

Care to explain what exactly you disagree with in my post? I mean… I'm basically saying that only Japanese Jujutsu systems qualify for discussion of Japanese Jujutsu… can you actually refute that? Or are you just being a jerk with your ratings again, lashing out on a personal issue because you, personally, also don't know what is what in this area?

If the former, show your work. If the latter… frankly? Grow up.

And don't give me the "obviously I disagreed with it… why should I have to explain it?" that you've given before… it won't fly. If you're going to disagree, you should have something to counter it with… or there's no credibility to your usage.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Yet again, Tony and Chris are giving you the correct answers in regards to this dropbear.  I do not see why you are continuing to argue!  Unless it is just to argue?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yet again, Tony and Chris are giving you the correct answers in regards to this dropbear.  I do not see why you are continuing to argue!  Unless it is just to argue?


He does do that on a regular basis.


----------



## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Goddsdammit…
> 
> @Steve
> 
> Care to explain what exactly you disagree with in my post? I mean… I'm basically saying that only Japanese Jujutsu systems qualify for discussion of Japanese Jujutsu… can you actually refute that? Or are you just being a jerk with your ratings again, lashing out on a personal issue because you, personally, also don't know what is what in this area?
> 
> If the former, show your work. If the latter… frankly? Grow up.
> 
> And don't give me the "obviously I disagreed with it… why should I have to explain it?" that you've given before… it won't fly. If you're going to disagree, you should have something to counter it with… or there's no credibility to your usage.


What are you going on about now, Chris?  Jesus, man.  Can't you see the mods are trying to steer the thread away from this kind of bickering?   

As a complete aside, isn't intentionally circumventing the profanity filter a no no?


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> He does do that on a regular basis.


The easiest way to end this would be to just acknowledge the point, agree to disagree and move on.  Why are you guys so adamant that there be a correct and incorrect on matters of opinion?  Shoot, even say, "that's a wacko opinion.  I completely disagree."  And move on.  End of conflict.  

Chris literally cannot do that. He doesn't have it in him to amicably disagree and move on. 

 But sides have been taken.  I get it.  And now were just supporting our team.


----------



## pgsmith

Steve said:


> The easiest way to end this would be to just acknowledge the point, agree to disagree and move on.  Why are you guys so adamant that there be a correct and incorrect on matters of opinion?  Shoot, even say, "that's a wacko opinion.  I completely disagree."  And move on.  End of conflict.
> 
> Chris literally cannot do that. He doesn't have it in him to amicably disagree and move on.
> 
> But sides have been taken.  I get it.  And now were just supporting our team.



  You're absolutely right Steve, that would be the easiest way to end this. So, for the sake of expediency and in the name of the regular participants of the Japanese martial arts forums, I formally acknowledge the points that you and droopbear were making (whatever they really were). I also agree to disagree with your opinions, although I will continue to insist, contrary to what others wish me to believe, that gravity is in fact essential to maintaining the earth's orbit around the sun. 

  Feel better now?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*This isn't an agree to disagree argument*.  Either a system is from Japan with direct lineage and therefore Japanese Jujutsu or it is not!  This forum is for discussion on Japanese Judo/Jujutsu.  Not what would be codified American Jujutsu, Brazilian Jiujitsu, etc.  That does not mean they cannot be brought up in what differences they are, etc.  Yet, in the end this forum is for Japanese Judo/Jujutsu. 

Let's move along folks....


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> The easiest way to end this would be to just acknowledge the point, agree to disagree and move on.  Why are you guys so adamant that there be a correct and incorrect on matters of opinion?  Shoot, even say, "that's a wacko opinion.  I completely disagree."  And move on.  End of conflict.
> 
> Chris literally cannot do that. He doesn't have it in him to amicably disagree and move on.
> 
> But sides have been taken.  I get it.  And now were just supporting our team.


Which "you guys" are you referring to? My only posts in this thread (prior to the one you quoted) were discussing the Japanese-ishness of my own art or to ask questions about someone else's point.


----------



## Steve

pgsmith said:


> You're absolutely right Steve, that would be the easiest way to end this. So, for the sake of expediency and in the name of the regular participants of the Japanese martial arts forums, I formally acknowledge the points that you and droopbear were making (whatever they really were). I also agree to disagree with your opinions, although I will continue to insist, contrary to what others wish me to believe, that gravity is in fact essential to maintaining the earth's orbit around the sun.
> 
> Feel better now?


If you feel better, I feel better.  Quick aside, did you mean to write droopbear?  Because that made me literally laugh out loud.


----------



## Steve

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *This isn't an agree to disagree argument*.  Either a system is from Japan with direct lineage and therefore Japanese Jujutsu or it is not!  This forum is for discussion on Japanese Judo/Jujutsu.  Not what would be codified American Jujutsu, Brazilian Jiujitsu, etc.  That does not mean they cannot be brought up in what differences they are, etc.  Yet, in the end this forum is for Japanese Judo/Jujutsu.
> 
> Let's move along folks....


Come on, Brian.  That doesn't even make sense.  This is exactly an agree to disagree argument. PGSmith has it exactly right.

Here, I'll start:  Brian, I think you're wrong.  I think Chris is also wrong.  But you know what, guys?  This is going nowhere, so let's* agree to disagree *and *move on*.   

Man... that felt nice.  Warm and fuzzy, even.  So,  unless Chris launches another profanity laced attack, I'm good.


----------



## pgsmith

Steve said:


> If you feel better, I feel better.  Quick aside, did you mean to write droopbear?  Because that made me literally laugh out loud.



  No, but I'll take it!



Steve said:


> PGSmith has it exactly right.



  I just liked seeing that so much that I had to repeat it! 

  Kum ba yah ... kum ba yah ...  

  So Gerry, how much of the Japanese names for techniques and movements does NGA retain (other than the name), or is it all in English now?


----------



## jks9199

Admin Note:

Thread locked.

For those unclear, for an art to qualify as Japanese, it must have a recognizable connection to Japan.  It does not have to be headquartered in Japan, taught in Japan or solely in Japanese, or by people of Japanese heritage.  But it does have to have some sort of reasonably recognizable, ongoing connection to Japan. 

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is clearly NOT a Japanese art.  It is a BRAZILIAN art that derived from a Japanese art.  It's clearly, demonstrably, and openly gone its own way, and does not maintain a connection with Japan.

A koryu Japanese art, taught and headed by a Westerner, that strives and seeks to maintain the connection and links to its roots in Japan, even if there are no living practitioners in Japan, is Japanese. 

I trust the distinction is clear.

jks9199
Administrator


----------

