# So just how many techniques does your hapkido program have anyway?



## Daniel Sullivan

In another thread, a poster mentioned that traditional hapkido has thousands of techniques.

I study traditional hapkido and I think we'd be lucky to get to five hundred and are probably closer to three hundred.  Of those, many are variations on a theme (wrist lock against an attacker who is not grabbing you, wristlock vs. same side grab, wrist lock vs. cross hand grab, wrist lock vs. clothing grab, etc.) as opposed to completely separate techniques.

Is it your experience that hapkido has a thousand plus separate techniques?

If yes, are these a thousand different techniques or are is it a smaller group with many permutations?

Daniel


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## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If yes, are these a thousand different techniques or are is it a smaller group with many permutations?
> 
> Daniel



Yeah, I'm not sure how you tally up thousands of techniques unless they are all variations on the same hold.  Aikido has about 7 standing base techniques.  If you consider irimi, tenkan, omote, and ura variations you can probably knock them up to around 400 techniques or so by my quick guesstimate.  Then you can start looking at the sitting techs and the weapons defenses.  I guess you can get into the thousands if you count things that way.


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## Disco

I have asked this question before and there was no real answer, for the problem lies with defining just what actually constitutes a technique. A simplistic offering that I gave was the following: Lets take a simple block, that is one technique. Now you take that same block and add a punch, does this now become a second technique or just an extension of the first technique and so on and so on. In my estimation, the numbers of techniques being projected within Hapkido are grossly over stated and for nothing more than "mine is better than yours", But the possibility does arise, if we can determine the exact parameters of just what a technique consists of. Using the simple example, we constantly add something to the original given movement, then we can go to crazy numbers of techniques, if this is how a technique is determined. Personally, I teach the concepts of the discipline and show how to utilize these concepts and let the student discover his/her own strong suits, for that's what they will use in a stress induced situation. I've never heard anyone say, when asked what they did in a situation, say...........I used technique number 75 and then went to number 1,906 and then finished it off with number 3, 006.


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## Daniel Sullivan

I think we hit right around 300. 

300...

Maybe I should start a dojang where our dobok is a flowing red cape, high sandals and a leather speedo.  

Pushing kick is a must.  Weapons would be sword and spear.  Shield use would be required.

Male students must have beards or be too young to grow them.  We'll do 300 ab exercises each class: all students must have washboards by BB.

Then we'd do demos and I could start them out shouting, "*THIS IS HAPKIDO!!*"

Daniel


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## IcemanSK

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think we hit right around 300.
> 
> 300...
> 
> Maybe I should start a dojang where our dobok is a flowing red cape, high sandals and a leather speedo.
> 
> Pushing kick is a must.  Weapons would be sword and spear.  Shield use would be required.
> 
> _*Male students must have beards or be too young to grow them.  We'll do 300 ab exercises each class: all students must have washboards by BB.*_
> 
> Then we'd do demos and I could start them out shouting, "*THIS IS HAPKIDO!!*"
> 
> Daniel



Now you've really gone over the line. Can you really teach someone & call it Hapkido if they are too young to grow a beard?!:ultracool


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## Daniel Sullivan

IcemanSK said:


> Now you've really gone over the line. Can you really teach someone & call it Hapkido if they are too young to grow a beard?!:ultracool


Yes, but they cannot be dan ranked until they grow that beard in.  Women are exempted from the beard requirement, though a 300 Hapkido woman with a beard and a six pack is a fearsome opponent indeed!

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

In all seriousness, beards, washboards, capes and leather speedos aside, Both my gm and head instructors all came out of the IHF.  They put together an HKD curriculum for the school (we are essentially an independent, but he started his own local association).  

We have 72 hoshinsul gisul, eleven distinct kicks plus knee strikes, stomps, and shin stikes, six distinct punches, probably seven or so distinct hand strikes that are not punches, probably about six or so distinct blocks, and several hand techniques that are offensive, but not 'strikes' per-se.  After first dan, we get into weapon defenses, and there are about seven to ten or so vs. knives, guns, sword, defense using a belt, and then cane techniques.  Then there are variations on all of the above, plus applications against multiple opponents.  We have a very light groundwork section that is mainly (but not entirely) geared towards getting back up, not towards groundfighting as one would see in judo or BJJ.

Unless I count every permutation of every technique as a separate technique, the number simply is not that high.      

Now, we have instructors at our Frederick school that have groundfighting experience (had a taste last night; twas fun and educational) but that is not hapkido, but experience that they have in other arts.

Daniel


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## Haakon

Daniel Sullivan said:


> We have 72 hoshinsul gisul, eleven distinct kicks plus knee strikes, stomps, and shin stikes, six distinct punches, probably seven or so distinct hand strikes that are not punches, probably about six or so distinct blocks, and several hand techniques that are offensive, but not 'strikes' per-se.  After first dan, we get into weapon defenses, and there are about seven to ten or so vs. knives, guns, sword, defense using a belt, and then cane techniques.  Then there are variations on all of the above, plus applications against multiple opponents.  We have a very light groundwork section that is mainly (but not entirely) geared towards getting back up, not towards groundfighting as one would see in judo or BJJ.


 
That sounds very similar to my school. 65 ho sin sool to 1st dan, 9 distinct kicks (excluding jumping and spinning), 5 forms - not counting all the weapons forms, and so on. 

Is a particular ho sin sool considered one technique, or is it compromised of 3 or 4, or if you want to include footwork maybe 10+ "techniques" if you want to inflate the count.

Depending on how you break down "technique" the system could number into the thousands, or a few hundred. I think I would tend to lean towards the 'few hundred' point of view.


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## zDom

I'd really have to think my way through it.

Many of the "techniques" that are required in the curriculum are found elsewhere from a different grab, for example, or from another position.

I agree that it isn't really all THAT many, though. 

I mean, if you are looking at inflating that number of "techniques" in a curriculum you could, for example, count a front kick at the knee as a different technique than a front kick at the mid-section  double that for using the front leg / back leg, etc., and so forth.


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## spud

We have roughly about 360 techniques, many are variations on the same thing being applied in different circumstances or angles.  I've also heard it said their are a "possible 10 thousand variations" but even the masters say they don't know them all.  It all sounds like my HKD is bigger than yours LOL.

I've learned over the years its far better to master the most practical ones that suit you personally but as everyone is different those will change from one person to the next.

Quality wins over quantity every time in my book anyways.


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## American HKD

Sinmoo HKD according to Doju Ji Han Jae has about 800 techniques. However many are variations of the basics. This number doesn't include combinations which can be endless.


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## kiddk1

I have 1058 techniques, I follow He-Young Kimm's hapkido.


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## dortiz

I prefer less focus on how many techniques and more focus on where or how they are used.
As an example I want to see a student demonstrate from a wrist grab same side, cross grab, punch, Sleeve, elbow, shoulder, choke etc.
Then I want to see it done when the technique fails and flow to the next technique. Heck if they did 2 variations but could flow through all these positions and transition from failed techniques and add a counter, well thats good Hapkido to me.
Its too hard to count when the locks come on!


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## Daniel Sullivan

While we have 72 formal hoshinsul techniques, many are variations as you described: wrist grab same side, cross side, punch, etc.  

Through the 72, a smaller selection of techniques is applied in different ways and in different scenarios.

Daniel


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## kubachi

Haha! I love this forum! It's so awesome to read you guys discussing stuff I've been wondering about for so long, even before I started training recently. 

Ok, so even if there are, in all actuality, only 300 original techniques (for example)...the fact that I've been focusing on 8 just blows my mind! I mean, not even kidding...I could break a large man's arm with very little effort or pull him to the ground whincing in pain by only a little force and my small hands and I know only 8 different techniques. How cool is Hapkido?!?!?! 

The way we are trained at my school is to learn a set amount of techniques while in "battle stance", basically, kind of reminds me of holding up a right guard in kickboxing. Once that's learned, the same techniques are used with oncoming punches to the face, then the same 8 are used when someone's got you by the shirt then by the belt, etc. I love that. It shows me that just because I learn something one way doens't mean I can't use it effectively in another situation. Plus, the same concepts, building blocks, are being reinforced again and again and again before we move on to completely new stuff. Like last night in class, I was training with the Master instructor and he repeated several things before adding new ones and at one point the glazed over look on my face told him it was too much information. So back we went. I don't think anyone can truly know how many moves Hapkido has. That makes it the tootsie roll pop of the martial arts world.


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## Kong Soo Do

I'm not sure why claiming *thousands of techniques *would be a selling point, at least from the perspective of self-defense.  Which Hapkido is often (and correctly) related.  A student needs perhaps a couple of dozen or so, of which they'll master about a half dozen 'go-to' movements that they will revert to under duress in a crisis situation.  Anything beyond this is simply informational overload and will slow/negate the possible reactions.  

Claiming *thousands of techniques *sounds like penis envy :uhyeah:


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## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm not sure why claiming *thousands of techniques *would be a selling point, at least from the perspective of self-defense. Which Hapkido is often (and correctly) related. A student needs perhaps a couple of dozen or so, of which they'll master about a half dozen 'go-to' movements that they will revert to under duress in a crisis situation. Anything beyond this is simply informational overload and will slow/negate the possible reactions.
> 
> Claiming *thousands of techniques *sounds like penis envy :uhyeah:


It is meant to assure a perspective student that 'this art has no holes.'  In reality, they are simply counting every variation on every technique as a separate technique; wristlock, clockwise wristlock, wristlock while glaring at the enemy and talking like Batman, wristlock while wearing pantyhose, etc.

Also, some people just like to break down, compartmentalize and categorize things.  I don't necesarilly see it as compensating for something as it is probably a mindset that the person who enumerated the techniques applies to every area of their life.  And that kind of cataloging is very appealing to like minded people.

Of course doing that also has the effect of scaring off some students who find that the idea of learning 3,257 core techniques to be a bit daunting.

I view it as a personal preference issue and nothing more.

Daniel


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## punisher73

I have seen this same discussion in other arts as well.  Their is an argument about is more better or how many techniques do you really need to illustrate the concepts and principles.

I think if you have too many techniques, a student becomes a jack of all trades, master of none and won't have the time to really train all of those techniques to make them workable.  Unless, you are just counting variations on a theme and are essentially the same technique with a minor move added or deleted.


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## Kong Soo Do

One of our regular phrases was simply, "Less is more".  For specifically the reasons many have mentioned above.  Learning the principles of how the body functions and operates is more valuable than the individual technique.  From a principle one can then apply a myriad of techniques naturally from many/any angle or position.  My method of instruction was to simply teach the principle, then demonstrate a variety to techniques that could be used from that principle.  From that information, the student could then discover what worked particularly well for them personally and then concentrate specifically on mastering that as one of their go-to SD moves.  

This is why the single form that I teach will differ from practitioner to practitioner and is all that is needed for a life time of training.


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In another thread, a poster mentioned that traditional hapkido has thousands of techniques.




That number comes from, in part, Daito Ryu. Daito Ryu claims to have 2808 or so techniques, and what happened was hapkido added techniques, and rounded that number to 3800-4000.


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## dortiz

"Unless, you are just counting variations on a theme and are essentially the same technique with a minor move added or deleted."

Thats probably the real discussion. And then as stated above it becomes why claim more or less blah blah blah. Its about flow and transition and variants to all equations. Count them as you like. Just make sure as each situation variable occurs you have practiced it 10,000 times so you can react accordingly from muscle memory. Oh crap! that will take another two lifetimes  : )


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## shinka

In *Hoshinkido Hapkido* ...NOT KIDDING.  We have *3800* technics in total.


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## Kong Soo Do

shinka said:


> In *Hoshinkido Hapkido* ...NOT KIDDING. We have *3800* technics in total.



Do you see this as a good or bad thing?  What is your specific focus in training in Hapkido?


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## shinka

Kong Soo Do said:


> Do you see this as a good or bad thing?  What is your specific focus in training in Hapkido?



I see it as a good thing...cause it's oviously many variables..... depending on many factors etc... It's good to be able to know what to do in all different aspect of the situation... It's also important to learn them well too.... That's why we practice a lot and it's not an easy task. 
We have 13 belts to black...It's a long run but..........worth it


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## arnisador

When I was young I wanted arts with thousands of techniques. Now I strongly feel that 'less is more'. Too many techniques means too little mastery and too much reaction-slowing choice for me. 

The locks of hapkido and similar arts do lend themselves to minor variations that I still think of as just exploring the options of a single basic technique. I recall reading that Hwa Rang Do has 365 kicks--one for each day of the year. On investigation they were in each case counting what I'd call a 'kick' at least three times (low, middle, high), and sometimes more. It may well be a matter of presentation: Boxing is often said to consist of just 5 punches (jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand) but to me a rear-hand uppercut and a forehand uppercut, or one to the chin vs. one shoveled to the abdomen, could easily be counted as separate techniques. Similarly for front-hand vs. rear-hand hooks. 

I think that in the end we all know many more techniques than are really in our actual go-to repertoire, which is usually pretty small.


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## arnisador

shinka said:


> In *Hoshinkido Hapkido* ...NOT KIDDING.  We have *3800* technics in total.



The upside of this is that black belts can get bored in training doing the same old thing. It can keep people involved with the art and fine-tuning higher-level skills while keeping their basics in practice. It's an advertising tool at the beginning and a retention tool as students slide into the long middle of their martial arts careers. Keeping people interested and thinking does matter.


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## iron_ox

Choi Dojunim claimed 3808 techniques, a good number of these come from a set of rules that apply to the set of material that was taught from white belt to black belt.


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## bushido

We have 12 base techniques per discipline...
12 strikes, 12 throws, 12 kicks, 12 joint breaks etc...the exception being meridians or pressure points

Each lvl has a variation, so 12 + 12 = 24 strikes per lvl etc, not 12 * 12, lol.  Total per level = 72, not per technique per lvl   So, 72 original, plus 72 variants.  Dependant upon your belt system too of course, I know some use the TKD system 

So Orange = 144 + 72

Minus pressure points, there are 72 basic techniques in HKD

The "13th" tech of every discipline is just a combination or "flow" of the original 12


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## iron_ox

bushido said:


> We have 12 base techniques per discipline...
> 12 strikes, 12 throws, 12 kicks, 12 joint breaks etc...the exception being meridians or pressure points
> 
> Each lvl has a variation, so 12 + 12 = 24 strikes per lvl etc, not 12 * 12, lol.  Total per level = 72, not per technique per lvl   So, 72 original, plus 72 variants.  Dependant upon your belt system too of course, I know some use the TKD system
> 
> So Orange = 144 + 72
> 
> Minus pressure points, there are 72 basic techniques in HKD
> 
> The "13th" tech of every discipline is just a combination or "flow" of the original 12



What organization are you with? This configuration of material does sound familiar...


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## bushido

World HapKiDo Federation, although GM Hwang was also formerly associated with the Korea Hapkido Association.  He was the head instructor at KHA back in the late 70's I believe it was Kevin.
[h=1][/h]


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## oftheherd1

arnisador said:


> When I was young I wanted arts with thousands of techniques. Now I strongly feel that 'less is more'. Too many techniques means too little mastery and too much reaction-slowing choice for me.
> 
> ...



When I was taught Hapkido, I was taught that at the moment of attack, I should not really think about what technique to use, but should simply react with a technique that was appropriate for the kind of attack. Trying to decide on a techique as an attack is coming to you could indeed be worrisome.

As to the original post, I remember seeing this before and I don't know for sure why I didn't comment. However, I am inclined to think of all the 'variations' described as separate techniques in most cases are separate techniques, just for the reason I mentioned above. I want my body to react to an attack. I don't want to be thinking after I have blocked, should I add a kick, or a lock, or strike a nerve point. I want my body to react with a certain set of moves that are known to be effective. When I do, in the event the defense should not work, and I haven't left myself exposed (as we normally don't in Hapkido), I would either move into another technique, or retreat and await another attack and response.

It may sound like I am saying the same thing as others here, but I think there is a distinction.


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## Dwi Chugi

oftheherd1 said:


> When I was taught Hapkido, I was taught that at the moment of attack, I should not really think about what technique to use, but should simply react with a technique that was appropriate for the kind of attack. Trying to decide on a techique as an attack is coming to you could indeed be worrisome.
> 
> As to the original post, I remember seeing this before and I don't know for sure why I didn't comment. However, I am inclined to think of all the 'variations' described as separate techniques in most cases are separate techniques, just for the reason I mentioned above. I want my body to react to an attack. I don't want to be thinking after I have blocked, should I add a kick, or a lock, or strike a nerve point. I want my body to react with a certain set of moves that are known to be effective. When I do, in the event the defense should not work, and I haven't left myself exposed (as we normally don't in Hapkido), I would either move into another technique, or retreat and await another attack and response.
> 
> It may sound like I am saying the same thing as others here, but I think there is a distinction.



I could not agree with you more. If your body does not react to a treat, then most likely you will be struck prior to thinking of an appropriate response. 

In MuSool Hapkido our training falls more onto the principles of a technique then specific techniques. How do you step, where do you want the hand or arm on a throw, how do you grab the hand or arm so that your attacker does not get away, etc. 

Techniques up to green belt (the first year of training) are more hoshinsool in nature and include falling and safely getting up, three basic hand strikes, four kicks, stepping used to close the gap or create space, taking away the attackers arsenal, getting a basic throw, some minor ground defense, some minor grab defense and some kicking defense. There are ten instructional classes and two review classes and then the curriculum repeats until the student has the above mastered.  

By green belt my students should be able to safely defend themselves in a street altercation and get away from a larger, stronger attacker with no or little martial arts experience.  Most to the attacks will come from those type of people. 

From green belt to purple belt, my students arsenal is expanded with some large circle throws, some wrist locks/throws, arm/elbow locks and takedowns all from inside of an attack.  We also add two more kicks and two or three more strikes and a handful of ground defense techniques. The student will be envesting another year to two years, learning these techniques.

Purple to brown belt, we continue on the same type of locks and throws that are in the green belt to purple belt but the defense comes from outside of the attack. Purple to brown belt takes another year or two.

Brown belt to black belt we really focus on kicking defense. White to green belt has a few kicking defenses but we really expand on it.  We also work on controlling someone (without rolling around with them) after the throw or takedown.  This is really good for LEO's. 

I would say from white belt to black belt we work on 50 or so techniques and the principles (and variations) on how and why we throw the said techniques.  If you add all the variations and principles it is a lot more.  After the black belt we expand the techniques while mataining the principles and theories already instructed.

My two cents.  Thanks for reading.


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## Instructor

How many techniques in our program?

I dunno, still learning them...

When in doubt just grab something and rotate it.


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## Kong Soo Do

The best thing to do is a goose neck..or maybe a bent wrist...or maybe a 'swan sees own reflection'..wait, they're all the same thing! :uhyeah:


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## Daniel Sullivan

Interesting.  My thread was revived.  I had forgotten about this one, but the recent responses are appreciated.


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## Master Dan

Over 3,000 and there is not such thing as amateur or even average Dojang master knowing that many only few deciples or one who trained with original pioneer as a deciple of Grandmaster now Supreme Grand Master Yong-Sool Choi Founder of Modern Hapkido as stated by Grand Master Dr. Jung Hwan Park as I take as my Master and authority on Hapkido. Until Ryukyu Kempo Kyushio Jitsu there was nothing better for a TKD person to transition to.

In GM Park's own words his Hapkido was what any person over 40 in TKD should transition to to better defend themsleves but for my part in the healing arts also the spiritual side for self healing has become significant as well those of you who know understand.


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## Master Dan

Regardless of the art its rediculous to think of hundreds or thousands of techinques when confronted I teach a tool belt you have your best 10 on your belt at all times thats what you go to after that its about natural progression I like targets of opportunity what fits whats natural every body and size is different react move or die get your *** beat if you cannot adapt? alot comes from decades of experience and natural chi flow no one with 2-4 years has that some never some not untill 10-15 years


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## Dwi Chugi

Master Dan said:


> Over 3,000 and there is not such thing as amateur or even average Dojang master knowing that many only few deciples or one who trained with original pioneer as a deciple of Grandmaster now Supreme Grand Master Yong-Sool Choi Founder of Modern Hapkido as stated by Grand Master Dr. Jung Hwan Park as I take as my Master and authority on Hapkido. Until Ryukyu Kempo Kyushio Jitsu there was nothing better for a TKD person to transition to.
> 
> In GM Park's own words his Hapkido was what any person over 40 in TKD should transition to to better defend themsleves but for my part in the healing arts also the spiritual side for self healing has become significant as well those of you who know understand.



Master Dan, we come from the same line of Hapkido (Dr Park). He's quite a man!


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## Master Dan

Dwi Chugi said:


> Master Dan, we come from the same line of Hapkido (Dr Park). He's quite a man!


 He truly is when introduced to him my life long master said they were brothers and they both had stories of the war and how they survived. In 1997 I was told that at one time he was considered #1 #2 related to speed with knives and weopons. I found his personal teaching very profound and practical especially his knife fighting methods knife on knife, or hand to knife or knife to hand.


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## Dwi Chugi

Master Dan said:


> He truly is when introduced to him my life long master said they were brothers and they both had stories of the war and how they survived. In 1997 I was told that at one time he was considered #1 #2 related to speed with knives and weopons. I found his personal teaching very profound and practical especially his knife fighting methods knife on knife, or hand to knife or knife to hand.



Here is part of an instructional video he put out in 91 or 92.  The demo in the video with the knives and Kama are from 88/89. I was at these events. The music is very 80's and the narrator keeps calling Yong Sool Choi a General which he was not, I think he mixed up with general Choi, Hi.  But other than that, I like the video.

http://youtu.be/k7a9ZJiozWk


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## Chrisoro

I think much of this confusion is related to how you define "technique". If you for example understand the mechanics and basic principle of how the traditional s-lock (known as "nikkyo" in Aikido/Aiki-jujutsu) works, you can essentially enter into a variation of it it from pretty much anywhere the opponent grips you on your body, including variations that no-one has previously taught you (and even without your opponent grabbing you if you're a bit creative), and I could probably easily put together over a hundred different variations of how to enter into it, execute it and finish it, if I put in some effort. Do I then have a hundred different techniques, or a hundred different ways to do one technique?

In my mind, this is similar to asking wether a straight armbar from mount is the same technique as a straight armbar from guard or a straight armbar standing up, as the underlying principle behind the techniques is the same, but the entry, circumstances and execution is different.

Personally, I think of the s-lock as a single technique that can be applied from a bunch of different places, but strangely, I also think of straight armbars from different positions as separate techniques.


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## Raymond

Kong Soo Do nailed it with his replies on the first page.  

I personally roll my eyes when I hear anyone say something about the thousands and thousands of 'techniques' in their art.  I think this boasting has become due to the commercialization of martial arts where people just stand in a room and do "moves" on each other but never really learn the nitty gritty of founding principles and theories of movement.  The things that actually make a martial artist a martial scientist.  But teaching "moves" is a much easier way of filling a room with a bunch of people and keep them busy while you cash their checks.


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