# Techniques- how many would you need?



## still learning (Nov 11, 2007)

Hello, There are endless technques one can use....and flow it?

Is there any you feel that does not make sense or will work for you?

This is techniques use in a REAL STREET FIGHTS...NOT sparring classes.....is there some you question of it's effectiveness on the streets?

That was taught in class?

We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?

or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?...  will this happen in real life?   

Most of us would not stand there after one block to our punch and not move away (in or out)...and as for takedowns...most of us would try to escape and get back up...and NOT take the numerous hits or get ourselves trap in an armbar?

This is a part of our Kempo training.....doesn't make sense to me...but then again we could stun the attacker and get those mulitple techniques in?   never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?

Have you got stuffs you have questions about in your training? 

Aloha ( there will always be better ways of learning) to read, write, and  ....)

PS: One day toilets will be waterless and so will our showers....toilet papers? ...maybe forever!   pass the towel please..i mean paper!


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## terryl965 (Nov 11, 2007)

S_L I would use whatever tech. that would work at that time. I do not throw anything away. Since I have only been in a few altocation maybe my views are the wrong ones. You see until you actual use anything and at the right time with the right opponet we will never know for sure.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 11, 2007)

Having been in a few street altercations over the years i tend to agree with Terry on this. Until it hit the fan I never knew what I would do or not do and what would happen ( be that take down , trip, knock out, etc.).
About the only thing I have not used in the street was a kick to the head of someone standing up, but then I am not that tall either.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 11, 2007)

Many things I have thought were useless earlier in training did I see later what the point was. Here are some extreme examples 1. One karate kata I thought would never work until the teacher explained to his students the hidden meaning of why they bend downward and back which is to pick up an object to throw at their opponent. Another case involved me rolling with a grappler and as he tried to grab my arm for an armbar I used a silk reeling exercise from Tai chi to escape it. The point is things are not always what they seem and there is a reason for things even if they are not clear at that time in training. On the street in my memory of fights techniques were basically thrown out but body movement timing distancing and adapting to the fighting circumstances was how I fought.
But that is my experience your's might vary.


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## exile (Nov 11, 2007)

S_L.... as they used to say on _'Allo! 'Allo!_: leesten very carefully, I shall say zees only once...



still learning said:


> We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?
> 
> or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?...  will this happen in real life?
> 
> Most of us would not stand there after one block to our punch and not move away (in or out)...and as for takedowns...most of us would try to escape and get back up...and NOT take the numerous hits or get ourselves trap in an armbar?



SL, the number one rule, the essential rule, the rule that the recent wave of kata/bunkai/SD wizards like Iain Abernethy, Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder, and many others have been telling us is... _*Nothing is of practical defensive value which requires a compliant opponent*_.

The techs they advocate and demonstrate involve _forced moves_. There is no choice on the attacker's part when the defender responds in this way, assuming that the attacker is not a supernatural being of some sort.

An example (from Combat Hapkido): Attacker throws a fairly punch at the defender, who is in a conciliatory, hands-outstretched gesture seemingly trying to pacify the clearly dangerous attacker. But this isn't just a peace-seeking physical sign: it's also the famous 'Fence' posture publicized and refined by Geoff Thompson, the premier professional barfighter in the UK (nearly a decade as doorman/bouncer/security director of big, violent clubs in the reputedly very violent town of Coventry, England, with three hundred documented fights on his 'resumé' during his bar-security career; sixth dan Shotokan, codirector of the British Combat Association, reality-based applied karate dojo director). In this position, a small motion of the closer of the defender's forearm deflects the attacker's punch to the inside; the defender simultaneously traps the attackers deflected arm with the hand that's not involved in the direction, puts an armbar across the deflected arm's elbow or just a little north of the elbow, turns 90º gripping the attacker's deflected arm's wrist (twisting it for extra oomph) and drives his/her weight into the pin. The forces the attacker down to take the pressure off the hyperextended elbow joint&#8212;which you can now attempt to break, or exploit to take the attacker all the way down to the ground.

There is no point, once the attacker's momentum is committed to the punch, where the attacker has any choice. His weight is moving forward; the redirection imposed by the defender via the `Fence' is far faster than he can react, and your 90º body turn leaves him literally trapped, his elbow being pressed extremely painfully against your pinning forearm. Apply suitable leverage force and he will go down, he has no freedom of movement to do anything _but_.

Now, guess what?&#8212;this move sequence is one of the prime applications of _taikyoku shodan_, the very first kata that Shotokan karate students learn. It's encoded in the conventions of the kata, but it's very plainly there if you understand how to read the kata. The rest of the first four moves of the kata tell you how to take advantage of the pinned attacker's helpless position to damage his forcibly lowered head, or alternatively to break his collarbone or place a full-force strike into his neck. None of it requiring the least bit of cooperation from him. 




still learning said:


> This is a part of our Kempo training.....doesn't make sense to me...but then again we could stun the attacker and get those mulitple techniques in?   never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?



There is no established martial art whose techniques require your attacker to cooperate with you. I very much doubt that your Kempo techniques are designed to be applied to an attacker who is just standing there any more than the karate/taekwondo techniques I described above, encoded in _taikyoku shodan/kicho il jang_ require your attacker to `just stand there'. They were designed by extremely experienced fighters for use on the street; they weren't there for dueling or exhibition or sport. Which bring us to you query:



still learning said:


> (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?



All of these empty-hand MAs were created for civilian self-defense. And who would you be more likely to be defending yourself against&#8212;an untrained but violent, dangerous thug, or a fellow-student of the MAs? Of course the goal is to provide you with defense against untrained fighters&#8212;MAists are much less likely to attack you than anyone else, wound't you say??

Your techniques should work against a noncompliant attacker. The content of the TMAs was designed for such use. You should be training your techs against realistic, closely simulated street attacks where the attacker is not cooperating with you in the least. The enduring quality of these TMAs is based completely on the fact that over and over again, they will work&#8212;if you train them the right way&#8212;against an attacker who has no interest in cooperating with you. If you don't see how your MA techs lead to the _forced_ incapacitation of your attacker, something is wrong, somewhere. But Kenpo relies no more than any other MA on the attacker's willingness to `just stand there', from the little I know about it.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 11, 2007)

I know very little about American Kenpo, but, correct me if I am wrong, if someone is new at that Kenpo, and is attacked with a right hand punch, then, even if our defender subsequently "got his bell rung" with the immediate left hand punch (the "other part" of the combination the attacker was doing), our defender still _*causes a big rukus*_ if he executes FIVE SWORDS, say.

Take FIVE SWORDS as an example.  That's a whole lot of arms flying around!  Even in the fury of a fast-blast attack, do you suppose that ONE of those "swords" would block/and or strike/rake some punch or target?  I suppose that the chances would be pretty high!

So, on the one hand, we have a human who knows nothing about self defense say.  What would they do?  Maybe just stand there.  Maybe try to turn their back.  Perhaps throw both hands up to try to block.  Who knows?  Someone probably DOES know if they study the typical human's response to a punch.  But whatever, it is probably LESS effective than say, FIVE SWORDS.

Why?

Because at least then, our defender is not just standing there.  Even if the motions are less than ideal, our defender is then getting his licks in!  This is not a joke.  Maybe even if its not the "ideal" defense, does not mean that it would have no good effect! 

That's a lot of strikes being thrown IN A VERY SHORT TIME!  BAM!  That is like a machine gun!  Not a semi-automatic weapon, but a full-automatic machine gun, very fast motion!!!


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## terryl965 (Nov 11, 2007)

Look S_L makes all of his post about real SD which to my knowledge of him, say he has never used any in any real life stituation. This is why he ask these question to get answers to his burning desire to learn what he cn from all of us knowledgable people. I have said this before and I'll say it again ever in Texas look me up and lets train and when I come to Hawaii next year I will look you up to train while I'm there.


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## TheOriginalName (Nov 11, 2007)

Hey all,

The only time i've been in a "fight" was back in high school...and really i don't think that counts because i was never going to be fighting for my life as you would be on the street. 

That said, i have always wondered about the effectiveness of high kicks in a street fight. whilst i see that they are extremely powerful i can't imagine too many situations where an attacker would not see it coming.....

Other than that we should always consider everything we learn as being practical. Remember that martial arts have their beginning in war - where it was life and death....those who survived have passed their knowledge on .... so really it all works in the right situation.

The stuff that doesn't work....that has gone to the grave......so to speak.

Anyway, just my 2cents....


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## kidswarrior (Nov 12, 2007)

still learning said:


> Have you got stuffs you have questions about in your training?


One of the great advantages of cross training, which I know many posters here engage in, is that one art can act as a BS detector for another. For example, studying kempo and kung fu san soo for a several-year overlap caused me to modify some of what I learned from each. But as for throwing anything out--no, I don't know enough yet to disregard something just because I don't _yet _understand how it may be useful. Too many times I've found myself dumbfounded by pulling out a technique or even a form that I'd written off years earlier.


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## 14 Kempo (Nov 12, 2007)

I might be taking this a bit out of line, but I agree with most, I am leary about throwing something away before I understand the what is being taught. 

As far as answering the threads title questions, straight up ... in any given situation, a person really only needs one technique, that being the one that works. If you are good enough at what you do to be able to select the right technique, first time, every time ... then you only need the one. Good luck with that.

I rarely disregard techniques in total, however, I do make slight modifications or adjustments so that the concepts can be utilized with the limitations of my skill and movement, this normally under the guidance of my instructor.


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## Big Don (Nov 12, 2007)

In Kenpo a technique is defined as _two or more basics used in combination with each other_, a basic being defined as _any single move_. How many techniques would you need is a question that to me depends less on how many techniques you have learned or what color belt you wear, and more on how well you know your basics, and the ruthlessness with which you are prepared to apply them. If you don't know your basics your techniques cannot be good. If you know your basics and know how to use them and if you are motivated enough, techniques might not enter in to the situation. We do a lot of grafting at our school. Which forces us to learn to see how basics work together.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2007)

If we look at an art like Krav Maga, we see many techniques.  However, the initial application is the same.  Let me explain.  Lets take a 2 hand choke.  Whether its from the side, front or rear, the pluck, as they call it, is used in all 3 situations.  Why?  Because as they claim, when the poop hits the fan, you probably won't be thinking clear, therefore, they don't want the defender to think, "Ok, I'm being choked!!  Where is the attack? From the front. Ok, I figured that out.  Now, which of my 10 defenses for front choke do I use now?"  

Fastforward to Kenpo.  Anyone familiar with the Parker and Tracy versions of Kenpo, can tell you that there are a HUGE number of techniques.  We have techniques for a double lapel grab, if the person is pulling us, if the person is pushing us.  What people fail to see, is these techniques are a foundation..nothing more.  They give us an example to build off of.  Problem is, is that most don't take the time to build for their own, instead wanting their instructor to do it all for us.  News flash, but that hurts the student more than it helps them.  

I've told the story many times of my technique line, where I'll call an attack that the student is not familiar with, and they just stand there.  I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick.  When they say yes, I say well do it!   I love seeing the light bulb over their head shine bright, when they see the point I'm trying to make!  

Chances are we will only need a few techniques, but we need to be able to adapt.  

As for the person just standing there.  Well, shame on the student for not taking their training to the next level!  You need to be alive and adapt to what is being presented to you at the time!

When I'm learning something for the first time, my inst. goes slow and yes, its done in a static fashion.  However, once I get the feel of it, he moves faster, and really tries to hit me.  Not only will he do that, but while I'm in the middle of my defense, he'll move around and try to counter what I'm doing.  The same thing with my grappling teachers. Slow, no resistance to get the feel, then speed and resistance is added.

I thank God for that, because he has my best interest in mind.  He is making me think on the fly!  My technique may not look pretty, but who the hell cares!  Is a fight pretty?  I defend myself and that is all that matters to me and to my teacher!  

Moral of the story:  People need to take their training up to the next level.  You need to think on your own, and not get everything handed to you on a silver platter.  Nothing is easy in life and you need to work for things, not expect to get them handed to you.  

If your training isn't meeting your needs, rather than complain online about it, complain to a friend or whoever, find a school that suits your needs.  Sound harsh?  Sure does, but if SD is your goal, you gotta keep it real! 

Mike


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## Cirdan (Nov 12, 2007)

Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.


 
I agree 100% with this!! 



still learning said:


> We practice one step , one attacker throws a punch and we counter with numerous techniques that flows (hit them 4-10 times)...but the attacter is just standing there? ...would this happen in real life?
> 
> or we take them down and hit them numerous times while they are lying there?... will this happen in real life?
> 
> ...


 
Please, please, please don't lump everyone together here.  This may apply to you and your school, but at least at mine, once the technique is learned in a slow fashion, the speed is picked up, resistance and movement is added.  Something tells me that this is missing at your school.




> never saw anything in the MMA world of fighting? or any tournaments of any kind? that resembles this training? (maybe against UNtrain fighters)?


 
Then quit!!! Quit Kenpo!!! If it sucks that bad, go do MMA, if thats what makes you happy.  Then again, maybe you should be stepping back and looking at it from a different view.  Maybe, just maybe its not the art, but the person doing the art.


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## kidswarrior (Nov 12, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.


Well said. This is how it's going to go down in a real situation, anyway. Best to prepare for it that way (at the right time in ones training--there's more need for prepared techniques early in the training, I'm thinking).



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> I've told the story many times of my technique line, where I'll call an attack that the student is not familiar with, and they just stand there. I ask if they know how to punch, block and kick. When they say yes, I say well do it!   I love seeing the light bulb over their head shine bright, when they see the point I'm trying to make!
> 
> * Chances are we will only need a few techniques, but we need to be able to adapt.*


Yes, exactly my belief too, Mike!



			
				Big Don said:
			
		

> In Kenpo a technique is defined as _two or more basics used in combination with each other_, a basic being defined as _any single move_. How many techniques would you need is a question that to me depends less on how many techniques you have learned or what color belt you wear, and more on how well you know your basics, and the ruthlessness with which you are prepared to apply them. If you don't know your basics your techniques cannot be good. If you know your basics and know how to use them and if you are motivated enough, techniques might not enter in to the situation. We do a lot of grafting at our school. Which forces us to learn to see how basics work together.


An excellent summary of the entire puzzle, and how it all looks when it's assembled.


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## still learning (Nov 12, 2007)

Hello, Most people learn to counter the counter......may of us would not just stand there and take the mulitple hits....(off course some may be stun)....

When in a street fight.....most of us will not just stand there....

as for high kicks...there are lots of people who can throw this in a blink of an "eye"....and create  lots of damages..... for those who can defend this quicker....will have a great advantage too!

 a poke in he eyes...or break a thumb, or hit in the groin....can end a fight quickly....

How much do we need? ....lots....just that you can over do it too!

just that the way we train? ....will it work for the streets? 

Aloha (side walks too)


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## Guardian (Nov 12, 2007)

Alot of good answers and information here.

Throughout my entire career, I've been involved in numerous scuffles and altercations as a cop especially on a base with Marines LOL (they love to fight at the clubs).  

I've always taught and been taught that no technique is useless, because at some point and time if you are involved in altercations or fights and with practice, you will see that even that simple move or block or strike will flow from you with ease and most of the time, it will be unoticed until it's all over and done with and you have time to go over it all.

As I was instructed in Kenpo, even the block is a strike, I'm sure you have been briefed that already.

As far as myself personally, I've never had to use more then 10 moves that I can remember, most being locks and holds and it didn't hurt that my partner had a military working dog with him.

My personal favorite in an altercation that didn't involve my duties was a block of the punch right or left and a quick side kick to the knee area, even if I miss the exact spot, it didn't matter, close is good enough in that case, if they can't walk or stand without difficulty, they can't fight for very long.

Just my view on it.


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## exile (Nov 12, 2007)

Guardian said:


> My personal favorite in an altercation that didn't involve my duties was a block of the punch right or left and a quick side kick to the knee area, even if I miss the exact spot, it didn't matter, close is good enough in that case, if they can't walk or stand without difficulty, they can't fight for very long.



Good point, G.&#8212;there's a _hell_ of a lot to be said for a very hard, sharp side kick to the side of the knee joint&#8212;where the joint is weakest and there is little or no defense.


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## Guardian (Nov 17, 2007)

exile said:


> Good point, G.there's a _hell_ of a lot to be said for a very hard, sharp side kick to the side of the knee jointwhere the joint is weakest and there is little or no defense.


 
Thanks Exile, your absolutely right there.  No defense once their that close in.  I've only had to use it three in my life (thank goodness) that sound it makes is sickening, but effective.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 28, 2007)

At the school where I trained we had to learn 40 punch defense techniques for black sash. These consist of one person stepping in and punching while the other person blocks and then does the technique.  Some punch defense techniques are longer & more complicated than others. But the way "we" were taught was that you don't have to use the whole technique in real life combat. You may even be able to put together bits and pieces of techniques to create a whole new punch defense technique. With that being said you litterally have 1000's of techniques to choose from. The possibilities are endless.


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## morph4me (Dec 28, 2007)

Sounds to me like another case of someone confusing a training drill with self defense applications. Nobody is going to stand there while you hit them 5 or 6 times, especially if you're doing it right. This is a drill, to teach mechanics, position, distance and flow.

I my style of aikido we have 50 classical techniques, that is 50 techniques that are done from a statict position in order to learn the mechanics of the technique. Multiply that by the number of applications that you can do for each technique and there are hundreds. When we test for black belt, which requires us to defend against 150 attacks, some multiple some with weapons, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use more than 6-8 techniques during the whole test. Same with self defense line, in which anything goes and attacks are given with varying degrees of speed and power depending on the rank of the defender.

I have been involved in a few real life altercations and don't think I've ever used more than a handful of techniques to get myself home safetly.


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## TrainHardFightEasy (Dec 28, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> Don`t gather techniques and tricks like they were shiny baubles. Learn the principles and let it flow from there.


 
Very well said


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## ares (Dec 29, 2007)

I study kempo and in our class my shihan will actually hit the student a little bit harder to show the reaction of the attacker (it hurts a some, but worth the knowledge). After that, you see where he may be for the next part of the technique. He always stresses adjusting to the situation. If a right or left punch comes, then you act accordingly. If I can get in a couple of good licks and send him to the floor with a take down or kyusho maneuver, then I can step back and reevaluate the situation. Done properly, you should only need one technique.


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## jks9199 (Dec 29, 2007)

ares said:


> I If I can get in a couple of good licks and send him to the floor with a take down or kyusho maneuver, then I can step back and reevaluate the situation. Done properly, you should only need one technique.



Two points...

First -- in a real self defense situation, unless it's your job to subdue and arrest someone, there's no real time to "step back and reevaluate"; if you've got him down, you need to either finish him or run.  And that's not going to be deliberation; you're going to know which option you can take.

Second -- if it WORKS, you only need one technique.  If it doesn't work, 10,000 techniques aren't enough.  Or, as my teacher used to say, it's not how much you know that matters, it's what you can think of IN TIME.

The reality of combat is that you won't really be able to do complicated, long techniques.  Instead, you want simple, direct, and to the point techniques that you've drilled to the point that you do them without thought.


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## morph4me (Dec 29, 2007)

ares said:


> Done properly, you should only need one technique.


 
It only takes one technique to end a physical confrontation, it's getting to that one technique that could prove to be problematic.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, There are endless technques one can use....and flow it?
> 
> Is there any you feel that does not make sense or will work for you?
> 
> ...




From one student to another,

I do not know Kenpo. I have friends who study the art, but all are out of state and I do not see often enough. So I will not speak to specifics of an art I know little to nothing of. I will speak of generics that might help you. 

To learn a technique with body isolation is good for beginners, and even advanced to give them a new technique. This allows the person to see the technique and understand in a very controlled environment the places where you have control or where the opening for you or the opponent are. Of course when learning a new tech it mostly about your body placement and or timing of the strikes. Later or on your own if look into what if's or when the person reacts how does the technique change. Or how does the persons reaction take you to a different technique. 

As to direct street application, boxing works great, so does wrestling and so does just a trap and punch and so does sucker punch, and so does, etcetera, all at the right time against the right person. I have seen some who wrestle and no one else got involved. I have seen some wrestle and have the opponents friends all jump in. 

But here is the point. If you have never seen something then you are pretty much gaurenteed that you will never be able to pull it off. If you have seen something, now comes the training of recognition at real time and executing  the technique. Another but here. But, if the instructor just walks up to you and uses his/her timing and always beats you then how do you get a chance to learn. Yet if the instructor slows down and breaks down the technique then you can begin to grasp the idea or principals behind the technique and learn. Some systems require the individual to make the applications while others work you to a point via sparring and controller rules. It takes a lot of trust and a whole lot of cooperation from people to give resistance that is gradual som people can learn and feel when to react.  When to counter and when to attack and when to move. As the resistance increases so does the speed in general. Speed and timing are not the same thing. Speed is just that speed. Timing is knowing when to go. So to learn timing at a slower speed allows a person more reaction time to see and react. And as the person increases the speed slowly the timing will also improve. 

If you system/school does not give you the resistance but you really enjoy the instructor and the learning environment find someone you trust and can work with.  Understand that that you will set up the technique almost movie like at first. You say ok you will start with this, and I will counter with this other tech. This way everyone knows what is going on and no surprises. Then as they move in the middle of your series of moves, you then have a prescribed technique to deal with new attack or counter in the area/window/quardrant.  Go slow, and think about it. You will make mistakes. You will say can I have that again, and try something else. It is nto wrong to see that wow this does nto really work here as it leaves me too open but this other one keeps me in the fight and defended. 



*****

As to techniques how many would I need? I need one more than my opponent.


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## tellner (Dec 30, 2007)

"The fox has a hundred tricks. The hedgehog has just one. One good one."
--Archilocus, seventh century BCE soldier and poet


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## Doc_Jude (Dec 30, 2007)

No, no, wait. The best technique is *MY MIND!* 
Right!?!

But seriously, I used to think I knew what techniques you could pull off or not, until I pulled off the dreaded Bujinkan Ganseki Nage TWICE on the same guy. Now, when people talk about the X-block being useless, I think "Maybe the 'X-block' you're doing is useless, mine works great!"


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## blackrock (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't think that you should limit yourself to how many techniques you should learn.  I think the better questions is when should you learn more techniques.

Being great at a few moves is better than being familiar with 200 but never having learned to use them in realistic situations.


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