# Am I selling out?



## Xue Sheng (Jun 10, 2006)

There is a local YMCA that I taught Tai Chi at many years ago for my first CMA teacher, I taught Yang 24 and 48. I left because I started with my Traditional Yang style teacher and he disliked my first teacher because he was responsible for, and I quote. For watering down Tai chi My Traditional teacher was upset at anyone that did not teach the full art. Ironically 12 years later I left his school because he was doing the exact same thing, teaching tai chi fluff because he got more students that way. And if you have his lineage you can get lots of them. By the way all of his senior students are now gone. 

But since I left the YMCA they have called me just about every other year to teach tai chi. They did not call last year and they just moved to a bigger better building this year and I am thinking about calling them to teach yang 24 and 48 again. Also I run into an ex-student from time to time that asks me if I am ever going to teach again. I do know the forms rather well, I know the breathing and the internal and, if the students want, I know the martial applications of the forms. But I am certain most if not all of the students I would have would not care at all about Tai Chi martial arts. The last time I taught there I lost 2 students instantly just because I said it was a martial art. 

If you read one of my first posts on MT I was wondering if Yang style Tai chi was not already dead or dying as a martial art (I have new views on this and its not good, but that is another post). And the reason I sited was that the majority of people are learning Tai Chi for health only and would I be contributing to this if I taught at the Y.

So, if I go teach 24 and 48 at the local Y, am I selling out and just making things worse?

I have to admit it would help support my martial arts habit, whatever that ends up being, (I am currently a Ronin of sorts - to borrow from the Japanese) and I am not even certain they still want me to teach, but I was just wondering what the people on MT thought. 

One more thing, although I am trained in Traditional Yang style I, like all of my teachers senior students, was never given permission to teach outside of his school. Therefore I do not consider this an option.


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## Kacey (Jun 10, 2006)

I suppose it depends on why you choose to teach, how you choose to present it, and what you tell your students.  If you tell them, up front (or as soon thereafter as you can without scaring them off) that you are teaching the portion of the art that there has been a demonstrated interest in, and that there are more things available should anyone want to learn them, then you at least have the opportunity to pass on the benefits of *some* of the style - and in my opinion, that would be better than letting it die completely.  Also, if you have former students asking you if you are going to teach again, that speaks well for you as an instructor.  Is there a chance you could set up two classes, one for people who want to learn parts of Tai Chi, and one for those who want to learn the whole art?  Maybe start with the class they expect, and then add a seniors' class (meaning senior by rank, not age), which goes into the full art?  That way, people who don't want the martial art aspect get what they want, and people who want to learn the complete art have the opportunity available to them.

What ever you decide, I have to say that your concern about watering down the style does you credit, and I wish you well with whatever outcome you choose.:asian:


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## monkey (Jun 10, 2006)

There is- -Honor in teaching--health in teaching--history & presurving the art in teaching.Compinsation is not sell out unless are compensated for betraying yourself & original goals & dreams for the art & what it can do for you.Do exspress your dreams & keep them high & the arts will keep you health- strong & long life.


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## pstarr (Jun 10, 2006)

I'm with Kacey on this.  If you intend to teach it strictly as a form of health maintenance, tell them so - that this method of Taiji is not the entire art by a long shot but if they're interested simply in improving and maintaining good health, that's what they'll learn.

     Then you're being true to yourself, your art, and your teacher.   

     You might want to inquire about starting up a separate class where you can teach the complete art...


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## Jade Tigress (Jun 11, 2006)

I don't think it would selling out at all. Why give the martial secrets to people who are not interested, who only want to improve their health? Health benefits are an honorable pursuit too and you may find 1 or 2 Tai Chi *health* students become interested in it as a martial art as well. In that case you would be serving to open the eyes of the uneducated to the full scale of Tai Chi as a martial art. 

I don't view this as watering down the style. I view it as honoring the style by not *throwing your pearls to the pigs*. If someone is interested in the style as a whole, then you would honor it by taking them into full training. You honor the style by only giving to students that which they seek. This is not watering it down. It is honoring it IMO. I agree with Kacey about a *seniors* class. Perhaps the students who stick with the *health* Tai Chi class for an extended period of time, who really show an interest beyond the time the novelty of a new exercise wears off, would be interested in delving deeper into the full scope of the art, and also be worthy of being taught. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 11, 2006)

Thank you. 

When I taught before I always told my students what their options were. They were always told about the breathing, energy and that there were MA applications to the forms they were learning, but I did not require them to learn them if they did not want to. At that time I was teaching a 2 different YMCAs and telling 3rd I had no time. I had not yet started training traditional Yang, but I had been to Boston and had a couple of seminars with Yang Jwing Ming as well as training with my original CMA teacher.

Of all of my students at the time, and there were not really all that many, 4 were interested in MA apps. 1 actually wanted to learn the MA apps of Tai Chi and the other actually wanted to learn Karate and the other 2 just wanted to know the history behind the movea. Of the rest of them 2 left at the mere mention of MA being part of Tai Chi. I did not make anyone learn apps if they did not want to and if they did I tended to hang around after class to show them what they wanted to know. But I will never forget the lady that looked at me, right after I said, &#8220;Tai Chi is actually a martial art that many people practice for health purposes&#8221; She looked at me a said &#8220;This is not KARATE, and I am not learning KARATE&#8221; and instantly walked out never to return. It was actually to bad that she did; she was a very good student actually. Her friend did not walk out; she finished the class but never returned. 

The reason I wonder if I am selling out is that I have been so vocal about the Tai Chi for heath classes killing Traditional Yang style Tai Chi. And after my trip to Beijing I am more certain than ever that Yang style as a martial art is on its way out and terminal. There are some of us that practice it as an MA but by comparison to those that do the MA people are a dying breed. 

As for teaching the actual art, Traditional Yang, I do not feel that is an option at this time. I was never given permission by my Sifu to do so; my first CMA teacher gave me permission to teach the competition stuff. And as another post asked, &#8220;Am I old fashion&#8221; yes I am, especially when it comes to stuff like this. 

I have talked with Sifu Chu in Boston but that requires traveling to Boston to train with Sifu Chu. And he has said he wants to see what I know and make corrections first, and I fully agree with him, but that is a trip to Boston several times a year that I am not sure I have the time for right now. 

Why Boston
Sifu Chu in Boston has a very similar lineage to my teacher. 

Yang Chengfu &#8211; Tung Ying Cheih - My teacher (Also Chu, no relation)

Yang Chengfu - Yang Zhenming (oldest son of Yang Chengfu) - Sifu Chu in Boston

And I may be concerned for nothing; the Y may no longer need nor want me to teach Tai Chi, although they do not advertise any classes. 

Thanks again.


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## Dronak (Jun 11, 2006)

Well, I suppose if you consider the origin and creation of the 24 and 48 posture forms as a kind of selling out of the original art, then maybe you could say teaching them is selling out.  But I don't really think that's the case.  As I understand it, the Chinese created the 24 posture tai chi form as a short, easy to learn, easy to practice exercise that would help increase the health of the general population.  In some sense, this did water down the original long form, but it still has its purpose and use.  I think the 48 posture form was the first combined form used for competition (a 42 posture form is used for that now, IIRC), so it has its place, too.

I don't think there's anything wrong with teaching these forms.  It would probably be good to provide a little background/history and note that these forms are condensed down from the longer, original forms.  You can also say that there are deeper aspects to the art (e.g., coordinating breathing with the movements, martial applications) that you won't be going into unless there's sufficient interest.  If there are enough people interested, maybe you can give them this additional information after the main class is over, take a few minutes after class to give them some extra information.

Basically, I think that as long as you recognize the purpose of these shorter forms and don't claim they're the original, authentic stuff, and you make sure the class knows this, you're not selling out.  From what I've read around here, I think you probably already planned to do this, so I wouldn't worry that much about it.  Who knows, maybe you'll get some people learning these shorter forms who get interested in knowing the longer forms and deeper aspects of the art.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jun 15, 2006)

Maybe you'll get someone who wants to take what you have to offer.  Even if it's twenty and only one wants to learn, it's better to pass it on don't you think?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 15, 2006)

I have mixed feelings about this.  I completely understand your desire to be true to your art, to your teachers, and not overstep your authority.  

Could you ask your Traditional teacher for permission to teach?  If he is now teaching along a different path, maybe you could let him know that you would like to teach the traditional way, and you would like his support, or at least his blessing in doing so.  If he refuses to do so, then I am not so sure you would be doing something wrong by teaching it anyway.  After all, if he himself is no longer following the traditional path, why should you be forced off this path as well?  Maybe at that point it might be time to make a formal split, and do your own thing whether he likes it or not.  I kind of think that given the circumstances it might be appropriate, if you feel that you truly understand it well enough to teach it.  just be honest with your students about your relationship with your teacher, at that point.

As for the tai chi for health bit, I don't see anything wrong with teaching that either.  As others have mentioned it has benefits, and I suspect the martial aspects could be infused into these as well, if the students are interested in it.  Just be honest about what it is, and what it might be lacking.  But since you are familiar with the combat aspects from your traditional teacher, why could you not incorporate those concepts into the teaching of the short forms?

I don't have the answer for you, but maybe these are some things to consider.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2006)

Nebuchadnezzar said:
			
		

> Maybe you'll get someone who wants to take what you have to offer. Even if it's twenty and only one wants to learn, it's better to pass it on don't you think?


 
Actually that is why I am going to go back to teaching.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I have mixed feelings about this. I completely understand your desire to be true to your art, to your teachers, and not overstep your authority.
> 
> Could you ask your Traditional teacher for permission to teach? If he is now teaching along a different path, maybe you could let him know that you would like to teach the traditional way, and you would like his support, or at least his blessing in doing so. If he refuses to do so, then I am not so sure you would be doing something wrong by teaching it anyway. After all, if he himself is no longer following the traditional path, why should you be forced off this path as well? Maybe at that point it might be time to make a formal split, and do your own thing whether he likes it or not. I kind of think that given the circumstances it might be appropriate, if you feel that you truly understand it well enough to teach it. just be honest with your students about your relationship with your teacher, at that point.
> 
> ...


 
My ex-Sifu will never give permission to teach I never understood why before, because he had a very good student who left prior to me that he used, as he did me to train the new students and teach applications and push hands, but he would not him teach outside either. 

About a year ago a church near me was after me to teach and I talked to him about it and he said no traditional but Yang 24 and 48 were ok with him since he did not know them. I ran into some of my ex-students after that and they asked if I was ever going to teach again and at that time I was not sure. I once again talked to him and he said have them come to him. After that there was another group that specifically asked me to teach traditional, once again he said no and he had no them to go there and teach them. He has never given permission to anyone to teach anything they have learned from him. 

I am looking to go back to teaching, but I am a traditionalist and although I feel he is no longer loyal to his teacher, I am. I will teach 24 and 48 and some of the Tai Chi Qigong I have been taught and possibly, if any are interested get into basic push hands later. My goal at this point is to give any who want it a good foundation. 

There is also a possibility that I may start training with another teacher, not in Boston, that is closer to where I live. He abhors publicity and he is very good from what I hear. Another of my ex-Sifus senior students, and a personal friend of mine, just started training with him and is rather impressed. However he only takes advanced students and my friend will have to talk to him, time will tell.


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## matt.m (Jun 15, 2006)

If you believe in what you are doing and choosing the path you are for noble reasons then you are not a sell out at all.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 15, 2006)

Teaching is the way we pass on knowledge. If you want to teach at the "Y" i say go for it . You may not have a full course but as time goes by you can expand on what you teach to those truely interested in learning


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## East Winds (Jun 16, 2006)

Xue Sheng,
As you know, I am a Traditional Yang person. I also teach "for health" classes.  However even in these classes I make it clear that Taiji is a martial art and I demonstrate the martial applications of each possture in order that they can understand why they are moving arms and legs in a particluar way and why the body ends up in each posture. I also make it clear to them that it is only by understanding the martial applications that postures can be correct and it is only if postures are correct that energy gates are open and aligned. That is where the real health benefits come from. I also run "senior" classes where students work on applications, push hands, weapons and Zhan Zhuang. Students are not allowed to attend these classes until they have completed the Traditional form. If you feel uneasy about teaching Traditional Yang, then go for the 24 and 48 forms, demonstarting applications as you go. (You can even let them try a couple of simple applications like raising and lowering the arms as in "Commencement of Taiji"). You might be surprised as you see the dawning realisation of what Taiji really is all about!! If students don't wish to pursue the martial (and of course there will be some), then thats OK. They will only take Taiji as far as they wish. You certainly won't be short changing yourself or your students. If your teacher does not wish you to teach Traditional forms then it is up to you to either respect his wishes or disregard them. Your own self esteem will be strengthened by respecting his wishes and he in turn should return that respect!​ 
Let us know what you decide. I'll be watching with interest.

Very best wishes


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jun 16, 2006)

Good for you.  Don't get discouraged.  You never know, these same people who only want to train for health may refer people who want to be trained fully and traditionally in Tai Chi Chuan.


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## pete (Jun 16, 2006)

_Am I selling out?  _naah!  go for it.  don't compromise and don't teach for numbers... if people leave so be it.  if they stay, they will have the opportunity to learn a full and complete art, and you will have the blessing of providing it to them.


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## East Winds (Jun 17, 2006)

Xue Sheng,

I also meant to say in my last post, that Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy has produced a video tape "A Piece of Cake" where he performs and teaches 24 step in the manner of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. In other words he ignores the "Wushu" form that is so commonly seen and incorporates Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. It is quite a revelation. It is like watching Traditional Yang!

Also, if your previous teacher does not want you to teach Traditional Yang because he feels it would be in competition with himself, then the issue is a commercial one, not a moral one!! 

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 17, 2006)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Xue Sheng,
> 
> I also meant to say in my last post, that Coach Christopher Pei of the US Wushu Academy has produced a video tape "A Piece of Cake" where he performs and teaches 24 step in the manner of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. In other words he ignores the "Wushu" form that is so commonly seen and incorporates Yang Cheng-fu's 10 essences. It is quite a revelation. It is like watching Traditional Yang!
> 
> ...


 
Thank you, I may have to check it out.

However I have noticed that the 24 I now do is different from what I was taught by my first teacher about 15 years ago, he was a Wushu guy. After training traditional for 12 years my 24 looks very traditional in form. I was watching a video my first teacher made and I noticed the differences, and I like the differences so I do not think I will go back to the old way. 

As for the competition, I am not sure that was the issue in my case, but with the other senior student I honestly think it may have been. He had been with my ex-Sifu 2 years longer than I and in push hands against Sifu he was regularly matching him or defeating him. I at best could only match him from time to time, I never defeated him. And after what has happened and some of the conversations I had with the other student, it appear to point in that direction. Regardless, I probably will not teach traditional, just very traditional looking 24 and 48, with other traditional additions. 

My ex-Sifu has gone to peoples schools, that trained just the long form with him and then went off and opened a Tai Chi school, and confronted them. The last one I know of was a person that opened a school and called it the Yang Chengfu Tai Chi academy or something like that. I do not know what happened to this persons school, but there is nothing listed as the Yang Chengfu Tai Chi academy anymore. 

I have trained much more than the long form, but I just do not want the hassle.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 20, 2006)

Decision made:

Although I have not yet returned to teaching Tai Chi I am working on the forms to make sure they are correct as possible for my potential students.

I also ran into another of my old students a couple of days ago that asked me if I was ever going to teach again. 

And since my teacher did not remain true to his teacher by teaching fluff instead of the real deal I have decided that I will teach the long form and at least one Da Dow form as well as push hands along with 24 and 48. 

The only form I will not teach is the Yang style fast form since that is the only form my Sifu ever asked all of his senior students not to teach. And even when I did teach, briefly at a church, with his permission it was ok I taught 24 and 48 (which I did not learn form him) he made certain to ask me not to teach the fast form (It is, at least to him a secret, as far as anyone knows he is the only one in my immediate area that teaches it). 

But I will be returning to Beijing in a couple of years and if I find a Traditional Yang teacher there, an I have faith that I will, if he teaches it to me and says go ahead and teach it, all bets are off. Anything I learn from another teacher that I am given permission to teach I will, regardless of my previous Sifu. 

As for my previous and most recent Sifu, I was good enough for him to teach all of his beginners push hands, Da Dow forms, and the long form when he use to teach the real thing so why not teach it now. As a matter of fact I have been good enough for 2 Sifus to teach Tai chi forms and push hands to their beginner and intermediate students. My prior permission to teach 24, 48, Wu short form, a way cool alleged Chen form (I most unfortunately no longer remember) and push hands come from Sifu 1. Who I also saw recently and he asked my why I wasn&#8217;t teaching. He was also trying to get me to return to his school to teach traditional; I was there to watch Zhaobao. To go off track a bit, I just cannot go back there, he has changed his style way to much as well and is less concerned about correct form and more concerned with more money, more students and retirement in 5 years.

If I do return to teaching it probably will not be until the end of summer.

Thanks to all for the responses.

Xue Sheng


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jul 20, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Decision made:
> 
> .....But I will be returning to Beijing in a couple of years and if I find a Traditional Yang teacher there, an I have faith that I will, if he teaches it to me and says go ahead and teach it, all bets are off. Anything I learn from another teacher that I am given permission to teach I will, regardless of my previous Sifu. ..../quote]
> 
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> There is a local YMCA that I taught Tai Chi at many years ago for my first CMA teacher, I taught Yang 24 and 48. I left because I started with my Traditional Yang style teacher and he disliked my first teacher because he was responsible for, and I quote. For watering down Tai chi My Traditional teacher was upset at anyone that did not teach the full art. Ironically 12 years later I left his school because he was doing the exact same thing, teaching tai chi fluff because he got more students that way. And if you have his lineage you can get lots of them. By the way all of his senior students are now gone.
> 
> But since I left the YMCA they have called me just about every other year to teach tai chi. They did not call last year and they just moved to a bigger better building this year and I am thinking about calling them to teach yang 24 and 48 again. Also I run into an ex-student from time to time that asks me if I am ever going to teach again. I do know the forms rather well, I know the breathing and the internal and, if the students want, I know the martial applications of the forms. But I am certain most if not all of the students I would have would not care at all about Tai Chi martial arts. The last time I taught there I lost 2 students instantly just because I said it was a martial art.
> 
> ...




While on a project a few years ago, one woman who is Chinese was watching a Tai Chi video after a long day for a quick distraction and to see if she wanted to do it. She then smiled as I was watching, and she knew I did martial arts. So, she told me this is not a martial art, and only a way to improve the body. I smiled and said "Ok . . . " . She then said why the pause? I then started to follow the instructor last few moves (* In no way at the same slow speed but slow enough in general and to demonstrate for her *) and I explained the applications of the techniques to her. She actually yelled, "NO, this is beautiful and not destructive, it is not meant to fight."  I smiled and said, "Ok, ... " And sat back down at my desk which was 180 from her so our backs were together. She could not understand or wrap her mind around the idea of the applications. 

Just because you have enough knowledge and expertise to see both sides does not mean you are limited to present only one. 

:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 21, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> While on a project a few years ago, one woman who is Chinese was watching a Tai Chi video after a long day for a quick distraction and to see if she wanted to do it. She then smiled as I was watching, and she knew I did martial arts. So, she told me this is not a martial art, and only a way to improve the body. I smiled and said "Ok . . . " . She then said why the pause? I then started to follow the instructor last few moves (* In no way at the same slow speed but slow enough in general and to demonstrate for her *) and I explained the applications of the techniques to her. She actually yelled, "NO, this is beautiful and not destructive, it is not meant to fight." I smiled and said, "Ok, ... " And sat back down at my desk which was 180 from her so our backs were together. She could not understand or wrap her mind around the idea of the applications.
> 
> Just because you have enough knowledge and expertise to see both sides does not mean you are limited to present only one.
> 
> :asian:


 
I have run into this way to many times, but it is just life in Tai Chi I guess.


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## kimballmaster (Jul 27, 2006)

How can you sell out with a name like Xue Sheng???
 Everyone says every one is selling out, don't pay any attention.  But you already know this my friend. What you are really asking for is additional permission to teach.
 I am Master Kimball David Ben Leslie Paul A.K.A. The Fat Man. I say evolve. I have been teaching Tia-Chi-Chuan, Pa Qua-Zhang, Hsing-Yi, SWord , Knife,Staff, Toa-Gung, Nie-Gung, and Chi-Gung for32 years and I say this is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time. Teach what you can or you'll be sorry you didn't. 
Now answer me this. What is selling out???


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2006)

kimballmaster said:
			
		

> What is selling out???


 
Thank You 

Selling out was based on my previous posts and my belief that the majority of Tai Chi schools out there, particularly Yang Style do not teach the real deal and would I be guilty of the same if I went and taught 24 and 48 at the local YMCA and not teach traditional. However I no longer feel this way.

See this post
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36752

Also see above "Decision made:" post

And now there is something else on the horizon that I may just have to take advantage since the chance has been presented to me and I am beginning to believe I am a fool if I don&#8217;t. But possibly more on that later.

Thanks again.


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## charyuop (Jul 28, 2006)

Can I tell my opinion as a student? Explain!
If I go to a gym/church/park or wherever they teach Tai Chi, as a beginner who just knows Tai Chi for health that is what I expect.
If the master/trainer once I get there tells me "well this is a martial art and I will also teach you along with the health part how to self defend" as an "ignorant" of the subject the first thought I have is:" oh my God I am gonna get a bunch of punches...not for me bye bye".
The words martial art for the most is what we watch in movies and the training is the training we watch in movies as well or the yells you ear passing by a kung fu/karate dojo.
Solo form, use of internal energy, push hands...it is unknown world, people don't know that world. So just explain in detail what the training is, the pain involved and the risks involved. I am sure you will get more favourable opinions to the self defense part than you think.


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## Franzfri (Aug 4, 2006)

You can tell your students that they will get 3 benefits from Tai Chi; exercise, meditation, and if they persist, self defense.  They are the reasons I do Tai Chi.  I started doing Tai Chi at 59 1/2 years.  I was not interested in it as a martial art.  My Si Fu is a traditionalist and prefers to teach Yang Style Guan Ping Long Form and that is what I learned.  I just participated in the International Competition in Hunt Valley MD 2 weeks ago.  I received a silver medal in the intermediat competition for my style.  I have not learned push hands yet, but have been told that that is what I'll be learning in my private lessons.  Sometimes my Si Fu teaches the Beijing Short Form in his adult school classes.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Aug 4, 2006)

franzfr said:
			
		

> .... I just participated in the International Competition in Hunt Valley MD 2 weeks ago. I received a silver medal in the intermediat competition for my style. I have not learned push hands yet, but have been told that that is what I'll be learning in my private lessons....


 
Any photos?


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## charyuop (Aug 4, 2006)

Congratulations on your silver medal.


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