# Human Weapon : Ninjutsu Episode featuring Budo Taijutsu!



## Brian R. VanCise

Well it looks like the Human Weapon show has added a Ninjutsu show.  Word has it that they are filming in Japan right now and have been attending Soke's classes.  Word also has it that Bill Duff may have taken the sakki test as the challenge.

Here is Bill Duff's message on the Human Weapon Discussion Board:

http://boards.historychannel.com/profile.jspa?userID=700008035Big Bill Duff Posts: 29 
Registered: 7/19/07 


Re: Ninjutsu episode. 
Posted: Sep 7, 2007 2:03 AM (17 of 36) 

Looks like you are going to get your wish Devil Hanzo. Jason and I pushed for it and they have added it so it wont be long now, I don't know if it will be at the end of this season yet but we will film it soon. 

Thanks for the support,


BBD 

Other people are reporting on the filming going on in Japan.


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well it looks like the Human Weapon show has added a Ninjutsu show.  Word has it that they are filming in Japan right now and have been attending Soke's classes.  Word also has it that Bill Duff may have taken the sakki test as the challenge.
> 
> Here is Bill Duff's message on the Human Weapon Discussion Board:
> 
> Big Bill Duff Posts: 29
> Registered: 7/19/07
> 
> 
> Re: Ninjutsu episode.
> Posted: Sep 7, 2007 2:03 AM (17 of 36)
> 
> Looks like you are going to get your wish Devil Hanzo. Jason and I pushed for it and they have added it so it wont be long now, I don't know if it will be at the end of this season yet but we will film it soon.
> 
> Thanks for the support,
> 
> 
> BBD
> 
> Other people are reporting on the filming going on in Japan.



That should be interesting...


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## MJS

Looking forward to seeing this!!:ultracool


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## Brian R. VanCise

Apparently it will be one of two new episodes.  The other one being Tae Kwon Do.

Here is another post from the same board:

_Big Bill Duff
Registered: 7/19/07


Re: Questions for Bill and Jason.
Posted: Sep 27, 2007 4:28 PM (26 of 27)

* Report

Irish,

It is true I just arrived in Japan and we start production today on our Ninja training. I cant wait.

And thank you to all the Masters, Students, and Viewers who post on the boards. I enjoy reading some of the historical debates and weapons talk.

BBD_


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## stone_dragone

Looking forward to it...do we know when it will air?


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## newtothe dark

That is great !!! I love that show I watch it with my son. But please dont let it start another boom hehe


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## bydand

newtothe dark said:


> That is great !!! I love that show I watch it with my son. But please dont let it start another boom hehe



Never thought of that, hopefully they will present it in a manner that will not draw in the fringe bit of society.


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## Andy Moynihan

I think I will be busyyyyyyy.....NOT watching that.


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## jks9199

I was surprised that they didn't have one scheduled to begin with...  Almost figured that they couldn't schedule it.  Because it seems like it would have been right up the alley of what they're trying to do!


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## ffracer297

Look forward to seeing that one.  My daughter and I look forward to watching that show and it has opened up her eyes to other martial arts around the world other than what she has been learning at her school.


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## Bigshadow

My instructor Rob Renner confirmed they were there filming and it was for real as he is there now.  By the tone of the email I suspect filming is over at the hombu?  I am not sure, though.  He said it was fun!  I do have a picture he sent of them along with the email, but I do not have permission to post it.


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## Doc_Jude

They're not going to stick just with Bujinkan, are they? That wouldn't really go with the spirit of the show, IMO.


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## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> They're not going to stick just with Bujinkan, are they? That wouldn't really go with the spirit of the show, IMO.



I have no idea.  Being that I am in the Bujinkan, I couldn't tell you if they were visiting anywhere else.  All I know is what I have been told from my instructor in Japan.


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## chrisa

anybody know when this episode is suppose to air?


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## Brian R. VanCise

chrisa said:


> anybody know when this episode is suppose to air?


 
Probably not for a month or two based on how slow they are getting through all of the other episodes.


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## newtothe dark

Human Weapon : Ninjutsu Airs on Friday December 14 10:00 PM
Jason Chambers and Bill Duff venture back to the Land of the Rising Sun to study one of the most mysterious, subversive, and deadly martial arts in the world--Ninjutsu. From the electric streets of Tokyo to the misty mountains of North Japan--our hosts will wield the swords, throwing stars, and violent takedowns of the Ninja. They'll explore the secret passages of a 300-year-old Ninjutsu barracks, and hone the secret fighting tactics of Japan's immortal shadow warriors. And it's all in preparation for one ultimate challenge: a back-to-back showdown with two Ninjutsu masters.


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## exile

Get ready for a terrifying flurry of life-threatening adjectives and adjective phrasesdeadly, lethal, brutal, ancient, secret, subversive, shadowy, mysterious, ultimate,....um... _really_ deadly, _extremely_ lethal.... 

... hide me!!!! :lol:


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## Monadnock

I'd be curious to know what elements of Ninjutsu they would be studying. Is Ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan? Maybe if someone could define what it is exactly I'll know what to look for in the show. Will the fight at the end of the show involve sneaking up on the opponent, or will they fight face to face?


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## Bigshadow

Monadnock said:


> I'd be curious to know what elements of Ninjutsu they would be studying. Is Ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan? Maybe if someone could define what it is exactly I'll know what to look for in the show. Will the fight at the end of the show involve sneaking up on the opponent, or will they fight face to face?



Jason and Bill were filming for a couple of days at the hombu dojo (Bujinkan dojo).  Hope that helps.

I am not sure of what they did for the challenge.


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## Bob Hubbard

Well, it has to be better than the Mythbusters episode. 

From what I've seen of this series, it's hit or miss, but does give you  good feel for the arts, and entice you to look deeper at the ones that catch your interest.


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## CoryKS

exile said:


> Get ready for a terrifying flurry of life-threatening adjectives and adjective phrasesdeadly, lethal, brutal, ancient, secret, subversive, shadowy, mysterious, ultimate,....um... _really_ deadly, _extremely_ lethal....
> 
> ... hide me!!!! :lol:


 
Or the obligatory remark during preparation for the fight:  "If he gets too Ninja on me, I'll use my height and wrestling background to put him on the ground."

I like this show, but there is definitely material there for a Human Weapon drinking game.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Well I know one of the main coordinators for the Bujinkan (Yost Fulton Shihan) who helped Bill and Jason for this episode.  If things work out right I may go to his house and watch it the night it airs.

One thing I do know is that at the end they work with Fukuro Shinai one on one against two Bujinkan practitioner's with the idea to get five strikes in before the other person.  I believe by reading between the lines that these two Budo Taijutsu practitioner's are Doug Wilson and Bruce Appleby two long term Japan residents with lots and lots of experience. (I found this all on Doug Wilson blog except the about the part with Yost Fulton)


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## Bill Sempf

Monadnock said:


> I'd be curious to know what elements of Ninjutsu they would be studying. Is Ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan? Maybe if someone could define what it is exactly I'll know what to look for in the show. Will the fight at the end of the show involve sneaking up on the opponent, or will they fight face to face?



I don't know if they went anywhere other than the Hombu dojo, but I do know that they went there and trained.  I also know that Budo Taijutsu is not Ninjutsu per se.  That makes me think that they went to other schools in Japan to study (which might prove veeeery interesting) otherwise they would call the show Budo Taijutsu, and not Ninjutsu.  That follows, right?

The final challenge is a game of tag with weapons, because Budo Taijutsu is not a competitive martial art.

Most of my information came from Shihan Doug Wilson's blog at http://henka.wordpress.com/, and the HW forums on the History channel site.

Edit: Sorry, Brian, didn't mean to duplicate your post; looks like we submitted at about the same time.


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## Monadnock

Bill Sempf said:


> I don't know if they went anywhere other than the Hombu dojo, but I do know that they went there and trained. I also know that Budo Taijutsu is not Ninjutsu per se. That makes me think that they went to other schools in Japan to study (which might prove veeeery interesting) otherwise they would call the show Budo Taijutsu, and not Ninjutsu. That follows, right?


 
That would sound right. Of course if I were putting a television show together, I know what name would get more people watching. So that could be part of it.


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## Doc_Jude

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well I know one of the main coordinators for the Bujinkan (Yost Fulton Shihan) who helped Bill and Jason for this episode.  If things work out right I may go to his house and watch it the night it airs.
> 
> One thing I do know is that at the end they work with Fukuro Shinai one on one against two Bujinkan practitioner's with the idea to get five strikes in before the other person.  I believe by reading between the lines that these two Budo Taijutsu practitioner's are Doug Wilson and Bruce Appleby two long term Japan residents with lots and lots of experience. (I found this all on Doug Wilson blog except the about the part with Yost Fulton)



Are you going to Daikomyosai?


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## newtothe dark

I also heard they did some throwing as well shuriken


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## Brian R. VanCise

Doc_Jude said:


> Are you going to Daikomyosai?


 
No I wish I was but with my schedule getting away can be pretty tricky!


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## Doc_Jude

Yeah, tell me about it. I haven't been back since 2000. Nagato-sensei & George told me to plan on taking godan next time I was over there and I haven't been back! I hate it when that happens!!!  - ^_^


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## benkyoka

They filmed at Ayase once (not exactly the hombu).


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> No I wish I was but with my schedule getting away can be pretty tricky!



My instructor is there.  He flew out Thursday morning.  Well I assume by now he is there!   I had planned to go this year, but at the end, I was unable to go.  My plans are to go next year, but maybe not for DKS.


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## Bigshadow

benkyoka said:


> They filmed at Ayase once (not exactly the hombu).



So are you saying they only filmed at Ayase?  I am pretty sure the picture I have was taken at the hombu.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> My instructor is there. He flew out Thursday morning. Well I assume by now he is there!  I had planned to go this year, but at the end, I was unable to go. My plans are to go next year, but maybe not for DKS.


 
If the stars align right I may go this summer!


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## benkyoka

Bigshadow said:


> So are you saying they only filmed at Ayase?  I am pretty sure the picture I have was taken at the hombu.



No, I am saying they filmed at Ayase as well as hombu.


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## Bigshadow

benkyoka said:


> No, I am saying they filmed at Ayase as well as hombu.



Cool!


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## Doc_Jude

benkyoka said:


> They filmed at Ayase once (not exactly the hombu).



Who else did they train with? Nagato? Noguchi? Someya? Shiraishi? I hope someone good.


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## Doc_Jude

Brian R. VanCise said:


> If the stars align right I may go this summer!



I've been trying to plan a trip for the last two years. Keeps falling through. Disappointing. Though, now I might be planning a trip to Java or Bali, maybe Malaysia.


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## blood shadow

the episode airs dec14th.


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## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> They're not going to stick just with Bujinkan, are they? That wouldn't really go with the spirit of the show, IMO.



Well....

It is like when they did the Marine Corps episode...  I guess they could have gone to the Marine Corps and hundreds of "Military enthusiasts" clubs, but they went to the SOURCE.  It really is no different, they also didn't go to every individual group from any of the martial arts.  

Anyway... It is this weekend.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> Well....
> 
> It is like when they did the Marine Corps episode... I guess they could have gone to the Marine Corps and hundreds of "Military enthusiasts" clubs, but they went to the SOURCE. It really is no different, they also didn't go to every individual group from any of the martial arts.
> 
> Anyway... It is this weekend.


 
Let's hope it is decent!


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well hopefully it won't be done in the stereotypical manner that the Mythbuster episode was. Either way can't wait to watch it.


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## MJS

I'm working Friday night, but I plan on recording this.  I"m looking forward to seeing it.


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## Brian R. VanCise

This show is on tonight on the History Channel!


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## Andy Moynihan

Don't forget to use your superior strength when you watch it.


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## SFC JeffJ

And me without a dish!


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## AceHBK

Andy Moynihan said:


> Don't forget to use your superior strength when you watch it.


 
LMAO!!!!!

I have no klnowledge of Ninjitsu so this will be informative.  I hope you all come back here to let myself and others know what was b.s. and what wasnt.


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## Bigshadow

Andy Moynihan said:


> Don't forget to use your superior strength when you watch it.



WTF?  That doesn't make any sense!  :idunno:


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## Andy Moynihan

Bigshadow said:


> WTF? That doesn't make any sense! :idunno:


 

It's a dig on one of the hosts, Bill Duff. So often does some line come out of his mouth that his "Superior Strength(TM, C, R)" will be to his advantage in the obviously thrown fights at the end of each episode that I wonder if he may not , in fact, be contractually obligated to say it.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Cross your finger's folks and pray!  Let's hope it is good and not corny.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I am interested to see some guy's that I know on the tube.  Could be interesting or who knows they may just get edited out.


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## bydand

WooHoo, it's starting!  I'm taping the sucker.


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## WesternCiv

Disappointed in a couple of ways ...........

Big emphasis on weapons - I was hoping to see more of the taijutsu applications.

The thirteen and fifteenth dans performance in the "contest" was less than impressive.


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## Bigshadow

WesternCiv said:


> Disappointed in a couple of ways ...........
> 
> Big emphasis on weapons - I was hoping to see more of the taijutsu applications.
> 
> The thirteen and fifteenth dans performance in the "contest" was less than impressive.



Yes, I am somewhat disappointed as well!  Too much focus on weapons and virtually nothing on taijutsu. 

However, I disagree about the performance of the Doug and the other fellow.  I thought Doug Wilson's movement was exceptionally good.  The other fellow wasn't bad, I thought he did well, his movement looked good to me.  All things considered, I thought the little competition went OK.  

Oh, and I saw my instructor Rob Renner in the background during the competition.


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## AceHBK

Well since I knew nothing of Ninjutsu I found the episode quite informative and all

I will agree there was a big focus on weapons and I would have liked to see more hand to hand but it isnt a biggie.

Bill knocking the whole damn thing down when he tried to cut it made me lower my head in disappointment.  Bill and his "superior strength" let him down once again.  I think he and Jason joke around a lil bit too much for my taste.

I enjoyed this competition very much.  I was shocked that these guys were 13th and 14th dans.  Nice to see the guys they compete against not take it easy on them as it seems other competitors have done in other episodes.


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## bydand

Overall, not too bad.  Have to agree I was expecting a lot more taijutsu though.


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## amishman

AceHBK said:


> I was shocked that these guys were 13th and 14th dans.  Nice to see the guys they compete against not take it easy on them as it seems other competitors have done in other episodes.



Is this a good or bad thing?  Meaning they did poorly being high up or that it was good they had high level doing the show so the world can see the art in all its glory?

tj


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## Hollywood1340

Bill Duff looks terrible on a bicycle.


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## Doc_Jude

Don't spoil it, you jerks!!! It doesn't start here for another 15min! Jeez!


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## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> Don't spoil it, you jerks!!! It doesn't start here for another 15min! Jeez!



Don't read the thread until AFTER you watch it!


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## AceHBK

amishman said:


> Is this a good or bad thing? Meaning they did poorly being high up or that it was good they had high level doing the show so the world can see the art in all its glory?
> 
> tj


 
The latter.
To be such high Dans they looked really young to me.

In terms of the end challenge, in previous episodes it looks as if their opponents are always holding back and all.  With this episode there opponents didnt hold anything back and it was nice to see.


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## Journeyman

They let him say "superior reach" tonight instead.


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## Doc_Jude

Okay... that sucked. The last 10mins was the best part. It was funny how Doug tried to go unarmed with the guy and it didn't work out so well. He should have pulled one of Tim's aluminum trainers, though, that would have been good. That really must have hurt for Bruce to throw two matches to that meathead.

What the hell was all that "Koppo-sensei of Koppo-Jutsu knife fighting"??? They could have found a lot better stuff in the Bujinkan. & they should have gone to Someya or someone for the sword stuff. Or Nagase- or Nakadai-sensei for the Ninja weapons. 75% of that show was a waste of time.


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## Doc_Jude

AceHBK said:


> The latter.
> To be such high Dans they looked really young to me.
> 
> In terms of the end challenge, in previous episodes it looks as if their opponents are always holding back and all.  With this episode there opponents didnt hold anything back and it was nice to see.



Bujinkan ranking is quite a bit different than most anything else, especially from 5th dan on. I'd say that when compared to most arts, one dan rank would be worth two Bujinkan dan ranks. Though, Doug Wilson is rather gifted and lives to train.

& they were REALLY holding back. Sorry. I'm acquainted with Bruce & I know Doug pretty well. They could have smacked those two around pretty good.
I'll admit, it was nice to hear these guys respecting Takamatsuden stuff after training at Ayase and Hombu. Considering they've been doing McMap and Krav Maga, they have a better idea of what works & what doesn't.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Doc_Jude said:


> Okay... that sucked. The last 10mins was the best part. It was funny how Doug tried to go unarmed with the guy and it didn't work out so well. He should have pulled one of Tim's aluminum trainers, though, that would have been good. That really must have hurt for Bruce to throw two matches to that meathead.
> 
> What the hell was all that "Koppo-sensei of Koppo-Jutsu knife fighting"??? They could have found a lot better stuff in the Bujinkan. & they should have gone to Someya or someone for the sword stuff. Or Nagase- or Nakadai-sensei for the Ninja weapons. 75% of that show was a waste of time.


 


Doc_Jude said:


> Bujinkan ranking is quite a bit different than most anything else, especially from 5th dan on. I'd say that when compared to most arts, one dan rank would be worth two Bujinkan dan ranks. Though, Doug Wilson is rather gifted and lives to train.
> 
> & they were REALLY holding back. Sorry. I'm acquainted with Bruce & I know Doug pretty well. They could have smacked those two around pretty good.
> I'll admit, it was nice to hear these guys respecting Takamatsuden stuff after training at Ayase and Hombu. Considering they've been doing McMap and Krav Maga, they have a better idea of what works & what doesn't.


 
I was surprised that they went to other sources particularly since I believe those sources to not be Ninjutsu per se; but one Karate based art and the other a Koryu ryu. (however I will have to run his name and see what comes up)

I went out to eat with Bruce, Phil Legare, Mike Pierce and a bunch of friends after my good friend passed his Godan test.  Bruce was nice, friendly and good guy.  He did not fare well last night but was it real or meant to be that way?  We will never know unless we talk.  As to Doug well he pretty much schooled Jason.  I mean it ended after two rounds what was the score 5-1, 5-3 or something like that?  Still I imagine if Doug had to do it over he would not have thrown the sword to go Hand to Hand at one point. (that is Jason's forte so to speak and he did handle Doug in that moment)  Yet I will have to watch it again to see if the thrown sword would have fatally wounded Jason before the hand to hand engagement.  Still it is not something I would have done without pulling another weapon.  Yet in the end Doug looked pretty good! 

All in all it was another disapointing episode overall for the Human Weapon.  I'm starting to cringe when I watch this show.  The only two epidoes that I thought were good was the Krav Maga episode and the Marine Core Martial Arts Episode.  The rest were really a mixed result!!!


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## jks9199

Journeyman said:


> They let him say "superior reach" tonight instead.


And Jason used the superior strength line... about Bill!  (It was something like "with his size and strength, Bill usually has trouble with...")


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## MBuzzy

I am going to make an educated guess that the sword portion was just as blown up and badly done as the rest of the show.  First, I thought it was odd for them to say that Bill and Jason would "master the sword in only a day."  Right.  Also, straw is used to simulate flesh, not bone as they said in the show.  And do you think they REALLY gave those guys live blades??  No way would I trust those two with live blades after a day.  Maybe for the cutting, but not practicing.

Also, does anyone get the idea that they don't really like each other?


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## Brian R. VanCise

MBuzzy said:


> I am going to make an educated guess that the sword portion was just as blown up and badly done as the rest of the show. First, I thought it was odd for them to say that Bill and Jason would "master the sword in only a day." Right. Also, straw is used to simulate flesh, not bone as they said in the show. And do you think they REALLY gave those guys live blades?? No way would I trust those two with live blades after a day. Maybe for the cutting, but not practicing.
> 
> Also, does anyone get the idea that they don't really like each other?


 
No way were they practicing with live blades with a partner absolutely no way.  Now as to the cutting well yes they had a live blade then but anybody with a brain was as far away as possible under the circumstances.


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## bydand

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Now as to the cutting well yes they had a live blade then but anybody with a brain was as far away as possible under the circumstances.



I noticed that as well.  watched it again this morning and maybe I was more awake, but I liked it less, a lot less.  Sure, they didn't cover it like most shows do when it comes to Ninjutsu, and I think they did *try *to do a fair and balanced portrayal, but something didn't click right.  I think I noticed Hatsumi Sensei and the looks he was giving the 2 more this morning than I did last night.   All in all though, it was a bit more realistic and honest showing of the art than 99.9% of the crap that is usually put out with the Ninjutsu _brand _on it.   It did bother me last night that they spelled it wrong in the title of the program.  How hard is it to figure out it is a "U" not an "I" in the name of the art?


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## MJS

Well, this is coming from someone who doesn't know much about BBT, so please bear with me. 

Am I safe to assume that the people that they went to for the knife and sword work were not part of the Bujinkan?  If they were not part of it, I too, am surprised that they didn't spend as much time at the Bujinkan school, but went elsewhere.  You'd figure if the story was about Ninjutsu, that would be the focus.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MJS said:


> Well, this is coming from someone who doesn't know much about BBT, so please bear with me.
> 
> Am I safe to assume that the people that they went to for the knife and sword work were not part of the Bujinkan? If they were not part of it, I too, am surprised that they didn't spend as much time at the Bujinkan school, but went elsewhere. You'd figure if the story was about Ninjutsu, that would be the focus.


 
Hey Mike the people they went to for the knife, sword and shuriken work are all *non Bujinkan* instructors.  They all belong to different lineages mostly I believe karate and either a Koryu lineage or another more modern art.  I also believe these people were probably not expecting to be referred to as Ninjutsu experts but then again I do not know all the details. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The part with the Bujinkan evolved around a couple of shots of Hatsumi teaching, the obstacle course and of course the challenge at the end.  I think that is it.  I need to contact Yost and see what he thinks about how everything went!


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## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The part with the Bujinkan evolved around a couple of shots of Hatsumi teaching, the obstacle course and of course the challenge at the end.  I think that is it.  I need to contact Yost and see what he thinks about how everything went!



Where is that obstacle course at?  I have never seen anything about that.  I thought that was at one of those 'Ninja' Museums or 'Ninja' tourist parks.


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## MJS

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Mike the people they went to for the knife, sword and shuriken work are all non Bujinkan instructors. They all belong to different lineages mostly I believe karate and either a Koryu lineage or another more modern art. I also believe these people were probably not expecting to be referred to as Ninjutsu experts but then again I do not know all the details.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The part with the Bujinkan evolved around a couple of shots of Hatsumi teaching, the obstacle course and of course the challenge at the end. I think that is it. I need to contact Yost and see what he thinks about how everything went!


 
Thanks for the clarification Brian.    Yes, it would be interesting to hear what the Japan folks thought of it.


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## AceHBK

MBuzzy said:


> Also, does anyone get the idea that they don't really like each other?


 
I am starting to get that impression as well.

I can't believe that knife school though.  They actually let their students train with real knives???


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## Bigshadow

AceHBK said:


> I am starting to get that impression as well.
> 
> I can't believe that knife school though.  They actually let their students train with real knives???



I really don't think they were using real knives.  Seems to me those practice knives they were using could easily scratch.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> Where is that obstacle course at? I have never seen anything about that. I thought that was at one of those 'Ninja' Museums or 'Ninja' tourist parks.


 
I think it is just a tourist Ninja park!  I will ask around.


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## Brian R. VanCise

AceHBK said:


> I am starting to get that impression as well.
> 
> I can't believe that knife school though. They actually let their students train with real knives???


 
Those were training knives. (non sharp but still dangerous because of the point)  However, most realistic knife schools at some point have their practitioners work with live weapons but generally only with solo skill sets.  So that knife school may have their practitioner's practicing with live knives during solo training.

I also would bet a million dollars that the Hombu dojo training sword that Noguchi Sensei used was also dull!  Yes, I think I would win that bet.

Remember when Jason started to describe the Fukuro Shinai as having wood in them.  Yost quick said something to the affect that they are padded shinai with bamboo.  Jason also mentioned during the escrima episode that the padded sticks had steel in them.  When in reality they did not.  So always take what Jason or Bill say with a grain of salt as they are trying to play things up.


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## AceHBK

Brian & BigShadow....

Yea they said the knives that Bill and Jason used weren't real but they said the knives the other students used were real though.


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## SKB

Given the rest of the shows for the human weapon series I thought what they did was ...... all right. I just do not understand why they did not spend more time at the Hombo Dojo. 

I think they could of covered all the things they wanted to know there and could of skipped the trips to the other places. Or maybe explained they were going to learn a set of skills from these other places. The way it came off to me it seemed around every corner in Tokyo there is a 'ninja' school?

I did think they tried to stay away from focusing so much on the movie version of the art. Yes they did say the assain stuff, but at least they were not focusing on that as much. I liked they way they said the art was battlefield moves. 

I think they should of told the audiance the "test" was something they had to make up for the show.


----------



## jks9199

SKB said:


> Given the rest of the shows for the human weapon series I thought what they did was ...... all right. I just do not understand why they did not spend more time at the Hombo Dojo.
> 
> I think they could of covered all the things they wanted to know there and could of skipped the trips to the other places. Or maybe explained they were going to learn a set of skills from these other places. The way it came off to me it seemed around every corner in Tokyo there is a 'ninja' school?
> 
> I did think they tried to stay away from focusing so much on the movie version of the art. Yes they did say the assain stuff, but at least they were not focusing on that as much. I liked they way they said the art was battlefield moves.
> 
> I think they should of told the audiance the "test" was something they had to make up for the show.


Or at least gone to other Bujinkan instructors.  I'm sure different instructors have different specialties or are known for teaching something...  They could have gone to whoever is best known for the sword or shuriken, etc.

And I, too, would have liked to see them do more taijutsu.  My guess is that they had to do something they could come up with some sort of rules for the competition for...

My general opinion of the series is that the best competitions have been when they did something that's pretty much just "standard" testing for the style.  I think they probably cooked up the final MCMAP challenge, just like the Krav Maga challenge, but it had the same flavor as the rest of the stuff.  Others... yeah, it was a match.  But it came through clearly that it was set up...


----------



## Ronnin

what I wonder about is Bill "fought" against, I can't recall his name, a 13th Dan, and Bill won! This happens through out the shows. How can this be? I know that it's not real combat and all, so everyone save that excuse for the next MMA thread, it's practice, there's no real threat of injury or death, so the 13th Dan should have taken Bill to school. I don't see how one week of training, Bill could stand in the same room with a 13th Dan. Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me?


----------



## Kichigai-no-Okami

Ronnin said:


> what I wonder about is Bill "fought" against, I can't recall his name, a 13th Dan, and Bill won! This happens through out the shows. How can this be? I know that it's not real combat and all, so everyone save that excuse for the next MMA thread, it's practice, there's no real threat of injury or death, so the 13th Dan should have taken Bill to school. I don't see how one week of training, Bill could stand in the same room with a 13th Dan. Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me?


 (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot, dude!)Are you serious!?  I've gotta see this!  when does this air? (Yes, I feel the same way !)


----------



## Ronnin

Kichigai-no-Okami said:


> (Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot, dude!)Are you serious!? I've gotta see this! when does this air? (Yes, I feel the same way !)


 
it aired yesterday
i see some people posting that the end match was a set up...........this couldn't be i don't think. i don't think Soke would do that.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Brian R. VanCise said:


> All in all it was another disapointing episode overall for the Human Weapon.  I'm starting to cringe when I watch this show.  The only two epidoes that I thought were good was the Krav Maga episode and the Marine Core Martial Arts Episode.  The rest were really a mixed result!!!



*Agreed.*


----------



## Doc_Jude

MBuzzy said:


> I am going to make an educated guess that the sword portion was just as blown up and badly done as the rest of the show.  First, I thought it was odd for them to say that Bill and Jason would "master the sword in only a day."  Right.  Also, straw is used to simulate flesh, not bone as they said in the show.  And do you think they REALLY gave those guys live blades??  No way would I trust those two with live blades after a day.  Maybe for the cutting, but not practicing.
> 
> Also, does anyone get the idea that they don't really like each other?



True, that was funny. You can't even master picking your nose in one day. Well, Bill maybe. 

If you want to simulate a limb, wrap the tatami around a hardwood dowel. 

I think they're like two completely dissimilar things in a pod.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Ronnin said:


> it aired yesterday
> i see some people posting that the end match was a set up...........this couldn't be i don't think. i don't think Soke would do that.



He wasn't there. I'm not sure, but we've seen in the last season guys, representing different arts, obviously throwing fights or going very easy on these guys. The same happened here. I know, w/o a shadow of a doubt, that Doug could have beat his opponent from one end of the dojo to the other, & based on what I've seen of Bruce, I have no doubt that Bill would have had a little more than a little bump on his noggin when Bruce was done bludgeoning him. Knowing that, then it leads me to believe that either Soke had no idea what was going to happen in the end, or he did. Either he approved or was ignorant. It was decent press for the Booj, though.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

I apologize if I offend anyone by saying this but not only was I disappointed with the show I was also kinda embarrassed. Two high ranking Shihans(13th and 15th Dan) get handled like that by two hosts of a tv show who only were around for a short period of time? Not to mention that the Koppojutsu, Shuriken and Kenjutsu they learned weren't from the Bujinkan or any of the X-kans. And last but not least I was mostly disappointed in the fact that they mostly focused on Ancient weaponry instead of taijutsu. I'm highly disappointed right now so again if I offended anyone by my comments I apologize but I am only calling it as I see it.


----------



## Shicomm

I could say that it at least was entertaining...  but that would be a lie also... 
What i just don't understand why they do get at least a good part of their "homwork" done well and then screw up all the rest because 'show must go on'
Especially the "ninja" this and that where quite annoying imho.

Comparing the human weapon episode with the 2 segments from mind, body and kickass moves i would say that the BBC got things better done then the history channel.

Discovery channel is next with their "fight quest" , maybe they'll run a segment on bujinkan also.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I apologize if I offend anyone by saying this but not only was I disappointed with the show I was also kinda embarrassed. Two high ranking Shihans(13th and 15th Dan) get handled like that by two hosts of a tv show who only were around for a short period of time? Not to mention that the Koppojutsu, Shuriken and Kenjutsu they learned weren't from the Bujinkan or any of the X-kans. And last but not least I was mostly disappointed in the fact that they mostly focused on Ancient weaponry instead of taijutsu. I'm highly disappointed right now so again if I offended anyone by my comments I apologize but I am only calling it as I see it.


 
Pablo I think you need to rewatch it.  Bruce lost a very close contested match against Bill on the last point in the last round when either could have won.  As for Doug he handled Jason easily with the sword. (*Easily*)  Did he make a mistake going H2H well absolutely and Jason capitalized on it but that was just one moment in a two round match that Doug decisively won.  *Both Bill and Jason are athletes at the highest level*.  Bill played professional football and this should tell you something that professional athletes that get paid lots of money are extremely dangerous if confronted as they have great attributes. (ie. size, strength, speed, etc.)  Jason also is a professional athelte and though smaller he has good attributes as well.  It is not enough just to train technique you also need to work your attributes.  While I did not think the show was well done it was because they could have done so much better and they had access to the Bujinkan.  Still Bruce lost and Doug won.  Do not diminish Doug's excellent sword work on one moment in the match when it went H2H. (which could have turned out differently in another moment though we will never know)  In either situation Doug and Bruce struck first scored the first point and with real swords that would have been it.  It was after all a game of tag! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (which is enjoyable and fun to do)

Still *no excuses* Bruce lost and Doug won.  Enough said!!!  Plus overall the show was just not that good and could have been so much more.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I apologize if I offend anyone by saying this but not only was I disappointed with the show I was also kinda embarrassed. Two high ranking Shihans(13th and 15th Dan) get handled like that by two hosts of a tv show who only were around for a short period of time? Not to mention that the Koppojutsu, Shuriken and Kenjutsu they learned weren't from the Bujinkan or any of the X-kans. And last but not least I was mostly disappointed in the fact that they mostly focused on Ancient weaponry instead of taijutsu. I'm highly disappointed right now so again if I offended anyone by my comments I apologize but I am only calling it as I see it.


 
I think we also see a pattern here in that in one on one challege matches they do pretty well. Let's see they defeated the Sambo guy easily, tied with the Savate Champion, beat and looked good against the Pankration guy, looked pretty decent against the eskrima champion, did well against the MMA guy's they faced, etc. The only individual who truly dominated Jason was the Judo Champion and he did lay the smack down. Now, next week is Bill Duff facing off against a Tae Kwon Do champioin and their is video footage of Bill being knocked out cold by a spinning high kick. (wonder if that makes the episode) Overall though they do well in challenge matches.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Shicomm said:


> I could say that it at least was entertaining... but that would be a lie also...
> What i just don't understand why they do get at least a good part of their "homwork" done well and then screw up all the rest because 'show must go on'
> Especially the "ninja" this and that where quite annoying imho.
> 
> Comparing the human weapon episode with the 2 segments from mind, body and kickass moves i would say that the BBC got things better done then the history channel.
> 
> Discovery channel is next with their "fight quest" , maybe they'll run a segment on bujinkan also.


 
Let's hope the discovery channel does a better job overall with editing and how they approach and talk about the Martial Art they are looking at!


----------



## shinbushi

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Jason also is a professional athelte and though smaller he has good attributes as well.  It is not enough just to train technique you also need to work your attributes.


I agree about atribute being important but I think you minimize Jason's martial skills.  Black belt under Eddie Bravo and a MMA fighter.   The sweep Jason did and taking Doug's back was extremely technical, not relying on attributes.

Also episodes, I liked were Muay Thai, MMA, Marines, and Sambo
Biggest disappointment was Pancration.
worst episode was Silat or kung fu


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

shinbushi said:


> i agree about atribute being important but I think you minimize Jason's martial skills. Black belt under Eddie Bravo and a MMA fighter. The sweep Jason did and taking Doug's back was extremely technical, not relying on attributes.


 
Oh no I do not devalue Jason's skills *at all* he is quite good at MMA and in Brazilian Jiujitsu. (even if he is annoying)  Though I think he is just a brown belt. (still that is quite good in BJJ)  

 David I also have been training in Brazilian Jiujitsu for twelve years! (so I have alot of respect for Jason's skill sets)


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Brian I agree that the show was not that good and could have been so much more but I disagree on the fact that although Jason and Bill are prior trained and athletes. (Jason more so than Bill I think) that those two high ranking Bujinkan guys who live and train in Japan have that much trouble by two guys just in for a taping. I do agree that Doug and Bruce did well in the sword department but for a JuGodan to drop his sword to go H2H only to get swept and stabbed by sword by a passerby, to me isn't good. The only chuckle I get was when the Bruce gave Bill that nice bump....way to go. But thats all I'll say to this as I'm Bujinkan and I'm kinda feeling like a traitor by saying such blasphemy! LOL anyways I'm sure if the show's theme was more focused on taijutsu then the outcome would have been alot different....


----------



## MBuzzy

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think we also see a pattern here in that in one on one challege matches they do pretty well. Let's see they defeated the Sambo guy easily, tied with the Savate Champion, beat and looked good against the Pankration guy, looked pretty decent against the eskrima champion, did well against the MMA guy's they faced, etc. The only individual who truly dominated Jason was the Judo Champion and he did lay the smack down. Now, next week is Bill Duff facing off against a Tae Kwon Do champioin and their is video footage of Bill being knocked out cold by a spinning high kick. (wonder if that makes the episode) Overall though they do well in challenge matches.


 
How would it look for the show if the hosts, who are on this world wide fighting tour, get beaten into the ground every week?

The majority of the people who watch this aren't martial artists, so seeing them destroyed every week would be discouraging.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

MBuzzy said:


> How would it look for the show if the hosts, who are on this world wide fighting tour, get beaten into the ground every week?
> 
> The majority of the people who watch this aren't martial artists, so seeing them destroyed every week would be discouraging.


 
Absolutely this show is not only about the arts but also about the host's journey!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Brian I agree that the show was not that good and could have been so much more but I disagree on the fact that although Jason and Bill are prior trained and athletes. (Jason more so than Bill I think) that those two high ranking Bujinkan guys who live and train in Japan have that much trouble by two guys just in for a taping. I do agree that Doug and Bruce did well in the sword department but for a JuGodan to drop his sword to go H2H only to get swept and stabbed by sword by a passerby, to me isn't good. The only chuckle I get was when the Bruce gave Bill that nice bump....way to go. But thats all I'll say to this as I'm Bujinkan and I'm kinda feeling like a traitor by saying such blasphemy! LOL anyways I'm sure if the show's theme was more focused on taijutsu then the outcome would have been alot different....


 
I agree that throwing the sword and then going H2H was not a good choice in that moment.  Still it does not negate the excellent sword work that Doug did the rest of the match.


----------



## shinbushi

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Oh no I do not devalue Jason's skills *at all* he is quite good at MMA and in Brazilian Jiujitsu. (even if he is annoying)  Though I think he is just a brown belt. (still that is quite good in BJJ)
> 
> David I also have been training in Brazilian Jiujitsu for twelve years! (so I have alot of respect for Jason's skill sets)



From your post it seemed like the only reason the had a good showing was their attributes.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

shinbushi said:


> From your post it seemed like the only reason the had a good showing was their attributes.


 
Hey no problem but those attributes do play an important role. (I think way to many people at times forget this)


----------



## Omar B

So when's somebody gonna post this thing on Youtube or Google Video?  I know you guys recorded it.  Yeah, I don't have cable.  All I watch on TV is football and cartoons.


----------



## theletch1

Posting it on Google or Youtube won't do a whole lot of good as it's a copyrighted show.  Do a quick search over there for something like "Family Guy" and see how many of the videos have been removed due to copyright laws.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Doug's latest blog regarding the show: http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/human-weapon-aftermath/


----------



## Omar B

theletch1 said:


> Posting it on Google or Youtube won't do a whole lot of good as it's a copyrighted show.  Do a quick search over there for something like "Family Guy" and see how many of the videos have been removed due to copyright laws.



I know about the copyright issues, but there are many whole episodes of Human Weapon already up on Google Video and Youtube.  The show is usually broken up into 9 minute segments (from one commercial break to the next) so you end up watching like 4 segments to watch a whole episode.

Or sometimes the whole thing is posted as one huge file, like this one:  
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=191&start=0&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=


----------



## Ronnin

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Pablo I think you need to rewatch it. Bruce lost a very close contested match against Bill on the last point in the last round when either could have won. As for Doug he handled Jason easily with the sword. (*Easily*) Did he make a mistake going H2H well absolutely and Jason capitalized on it but that was just one moment in a two round match that Doug decisively won. *Both Bill and Jason are athletes at the highest level*. Bill played professional football and this should tell you something that professional athletes that get paid lots of money are extremely dangerous if confronted as they have great attributes. (ie. size, strength, speed, etc.) Jason also is a professional athelte and though smaller he has good attributes as well. It is not enough just to train technique you also need to work your attributes. While I did not think the show was well done it was because they could have done so much better and they had access to the Bujinkan. Still Bruce lost and Doug won. Do not diminish Doug's excellent sword work on one moment in the match when it went H2H. (which could have turned out differently in another moment though we will never know) In either situation Doug and Bruce struck first scored the first point and with real swords that would have been it. It was after all a game of tag!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (which is enjoyable and fun to do)
> 
> Still *no excuses* Bruce lost and Doug won. Enough said!!! Plus overall the show was just not that good and could have been so much more.


 
"Bruce  lost a very close match against Bill", see that's the thing.there's no way he should've lost.Take Bill's 10 days against Bruces 15 years ? Maybe it's time to entertain the idea that there are no such things as masters anymore, learn a few good moves, and it's anybodys game.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Ronnin said:


> "Bruce lost a very close match against Bill", see that's the thing.there's no way he should've lost.Take Bill's 10 days against Bruces 15 years ? Maybe it's time to entertain the idea that there are no such things as masters anymore, learn a few good moves, and it's anybodys game.


 
Well I think a very important thing to remember is that people are people and in general have two arms, two legs and a brain.  In the moment anything goes and many people with little to no training have been successful in defending themselves. (sometimes against people with more skill and attributes and a viscious mindset)  Would someone who is well trained have an advantage yes, provided they have the attributes and mind set to implement their training.  Is their any one person in the world who is invincible?  *Well no*, anyone can have a bad moment in time! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  (some more than others)  Sometimes people make to much out of someones rank or time spent studying.  *I am a realist* and athletically and attribute wise Bill and Jason have simply more. (they are professional athletes after all)  Still Bruce was close (plus had the first kill shot) and Doug overall took care of Jason. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I also think it is unfair if people are not counting Bill's athletic career in Pro Football, Collegiate Football, Wrestling and that he is currently traveling the world and training like crazy.  These things do matter.


----------



## Laurentkd

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think we also see a pattern here in that in one on one challege matches they do pretty well. Let's see they defeated the Sambo guy easily, tied with the Savate Champion, beat and looked good against the Pankration guy, looked pretty decent against the eskrima champion, did well against the MMA guy's they faced, etc. The only individual who truly dominated Jason was the Judo Champion and he did lay the smack down. Now*, next week is Bill Duff facing off against a Tae Kwon Do champioin and their is video footage of Bill being knocked out cold by a spinning high kick. *(wonder if that makes the episode) Overall though they do well in challenge matches.




Have you seen this footage? where did you find it? It would be cool to get to see some footage of Bill where he isn't talking about his "superior strength" and this may be our only shot!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Laurentkd said:


> Have you seen this footage? where did you find it? It would be cool to get to see some footage of Bill where he isn't talking about his "superior strength" and this may be our only shot!


 
Go to Youtube type in:  Human Weapon Bill Duff Tae Kwon Do Ko'ed and it should come up.  We cannot post the clip here due to competing forum rules.  Still it is a good clip.


----------



## arnisador

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Go to Youtube type in:  Human Weapon Bill Duff Tae Kwon Do Ko'ed and it should come up.  We cannot post the clip here due to competing forum rules.  Still it is a good clip.



That didn't work for me but searching for just Human Weapon Bill Duff Tae Kwon Do did!  (See here at a MT sister forum.) I wrote there: It's a little after 5 minutes in. I'm not sure it's a KO as per the title but it's surely a good solid knockdown.

The TKDer keeps his hands held low rather than up protecting his head. That's often used as a criticism of it...but despite a serious reach disadvantage, he surely scored here!


----------



## AceHBK

arnisador said:


> That didn't work for me but searching for just Human Weapon Bill Duff Tae Kwon Do did! (See here at a MT sister forum.) I wrote there: It's a little after 5 minutes in. I'm not sure it's a KO as per the title but it's surely a good solid knockdown.
> 
> The TKDer keeps his hands held low rather than up protecting his head. That's often used as a criticism of it...but despite a serious reach disadvantage, he surely scored here!


 

Wo did he take a shot and he was out on the ground a long time.
I feel bad for laughing but damn...lol


----------



## Seattletcj

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I'm sure if the show's theme was more focused on taijutsu then the outcome would have been alot different....



ROFLMAO......your kidding right ?


----------



## Doc_Jude

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely this show is not only about the arts but also about the host's journey!



To me, it doesn't say much for the arts that they are displaying if some big former football player with a week or so in an art is smacking folks around.
As for the MMA-er, go hand to hand & grapple with him if you want, but to me, more often than not these final matches show a bit of favoritism, if not being staged outright. 

Having two guys like this show so well against tremendously experienced martial artists makes the arts being examined look crap. I've seen Doug cut loose a bit, & I know that he could have really schooled this MMA-er when it comes to weapons. I know it's good to be nice, but the end looked crap to me. Bruce is fast as hell, Bill should have been black and blue from the elbows down.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> ROFLMAO......your kidding right ?



Not if they kept the guys paired up the way they did. Let Nagato-sensei play with Bill, & set Sean Askew loose on Jason. THAT would have been a good show.


----------



## WesternCiv

> Originally Posted by *Obi Wan Shinobi*
> 
> 
> _I'm sure if the show's theme was more focused on taijutsu then the outcome would have been alot different...._


 
Jason and Bill have done pretty well in past matchs for a couple of reasons .... first, these guys are accomplished fighters. And as indicated previously in this post, they are also very good athletes.  For the most part they also were not facing extremely (with a few exceptions .... judo being one) experienced competitors.  The kid Bill fought in the sambo episode looked like he was still in high school!  

I don't have a lot of weapons training but my initial impression is that sword work is a very technical discipline --- one that takes years to master.  The fact that Jason and Bill did so well against 13th and 15th dans who presumably have trained with swords for more than a week was frankly, shocking.

I could have understood those kind of results if a taijutsu competition had been arranged because the "Human Weapons" do have years of hand to hand training.  But the BBT guys should have mopped the floor in a weapons contest.

Disappointing.


----------



## Doc_Jude

I agree. Knowing what I know about the BBT folks involved, it makes it all the more confusing. Athletics doesn't help you much in technical arts such as weapons, only after you have the requisite skills, then the endurance and speed come into the contest.


----------



## Bigshadow

If it had been for real, life on the line stuff. Both Bill and Jason would be pushing up daisies!  They both would have had fatal wounds the first round of the first match.   Of course if you let them keep coming back enough times, your chances of coming out unscathed becomes much higher.

After looking at the video again where I could pause it and step through the part where Jason and Doug were H2H, Jason lost control of Doug the moment he reached for the sword and Doug began to roll out and it appears to me as though the sword actually missed Doug.


----------



## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> Not if they kept the guys paired up the way they did. Let Nagato-sensei play with Bill, & set Sean Askew loose on Jason. THAT would have been a good show.



HAHAHA  Yes!  I am sure that would have been very entertaining!


----------



## stephen

A lot of the complaining seems to be whining that when you take an amazing paramedic ambulance driver and put him in a stock car against a NASCAR racer he might lose. 


Uh, yeah...so...

Whole lotta mistaking the map for the territory.


----------



## punisher73

That was actually the first time I got the chance to watch the show.  At first I was thinking the same thing that these guys did REALLY well against the rank of people that they were fighting, but then I thought of two things

1)  Both of the Bujuinkan guys "scored" the first points and would have obviously walked away in a real confrontation.

2)  I remember from reading about fencing that it isn't the second best swordsman the best fears it's the absolute beginner because they have no clue how to use the weapon and you're not sure what they are even going to try and do.


----------



## Bigshadow

WesternCiv said:


> The fact that Jason and Bill did so well against 13th and 15th dans who presumably have trained with swords for more than a week was frankly, shocking.




Actually, I thought neither Jason or Bill did well.  Initial fatal slices were not delivered by either one of them.  In battle that is all that counts.

Bill and Jason's scores remind me of an old saying, "Even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn now and then!"  That is the thing about matches.


----------



## MJS

Bigshadow said:


> If it had been for real, life on the line stuff. Both Bill and Jason would be pushing up daisies! They both would have had fatal wounds the first round of the first match. Of course if you let them keep coming back enough times, your chances of coming out unscathed becomes much higher.


 
I agree.  Seems like alot of attention is focused on one minor thing, rather than keeping an open mind and looking at the big picture.



> After looking at the video again where I could pause it and step through the part where Jason and Doug were H2H, Jason lost control of Doug the moment he reached for the sword and Doug began to roll out and it appears to me as though the sword actually missed Doug.


 
I noticed that too.  Personally, I thought Doug recovered nicely.


----------



## Shuto

I really liked the rolls... I'm serious, I watched that part over and over again.


----------



## Seattletcj

Doc_Jude said:


> Not if they kept the guys paired up the way they did. Let Nagato-sensei play with Bill, & set Sean Askew loose on Jason. THAT would have been a good show.



Really? 
Do you really want to watch the aftermath, and work damage control when Nagato is beaten ?
Seriously?
You dont think its possible?

Sean Askew may be good as far as bujinkan fighters go...but I still dont think he would have lasted very long H2H with Jason Chambers. I could be wrong.

Something that hopefully is starting to dawn on people is that the art is not uber invincible bad *** combat. It is what it is. 
The higher you prop people and things up artificially, the higher they fall.


----------



## MJS

IMO, I think people are focusing too much on one small part.  Fact is, there is no ultimate art, and everyone and anyone can be beat.  Would Jason come out on top with everyone he fought?  Would the BBT guys always come out on top?  You could have the same 2 people fight 10 times in a row on two seperate days and the results will vary.  

Also keep in mind, while Jason may have had a momentary upper hand, he didn't seem to fair too well with the weapon.  I think Dale Seago said it best with this:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1357129&postcount=181


----------



## Bigshadow

MJS said:


> IMO, I think people are focusing too much on one small part.  Fact is, there is no ultimate art, and everyone and anyone can be beat.  Would Jason come out on top with everyone he fought?  Would the BBT guys always come out on top?  You could have the same 2 people fight 10 times in a row on two seperate days and the results will vary.
> 
> Also keep in mind, while Jason may have had a momentary upper hand, he didn't seem to fair too well with the weapon.  I think Dale Seago said it best with this:
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1357129&postcount=181




I feel the same as Dale.  My disappointment is, I do not think that the show as a whole spent enough time at the hombu.  Initially, I felt a little disappointed over the little match thing, but after thinking about things and watching it again, I am cool with it.  They all did good and it was enjoyable to watch.

Most people had preconceived notions of what they were supposed to see, but reality looks different (including myself, that is why I went back and watched it again).


----------



## Bigshadow

Video removed.


----------



## Dale Seago

Bigshadow said:


> Most people had preconceived notions of what they were supposed to see, but reality looks different (including myself, that is why I went back and watched it again).


 
Many also seem to have let their preconceptions prevent them from seeing what was going on. . .


----------



## Doc_Jude

stephen said:


> A lot of the complaining seems to be whining that when you take an amazing paramedic ambulance driver and put him in a stock car against a NASCAR racer he might lose.
> 
> 
> Uh, yeah...so...
> 
> Whole lotta mistaking the map for the territory.



I might whine more if I understood what you were saying...


----------



## Doc_Jude

punisher73 said:


> ...it isn't the second best swordsman the best fears it's the absolute beginner because they have no clue how to use the weapon and you're not sure what they are even going to try and do.



The pro is wary of the rank amateur. They bring chaos and don't know "the rules of engagement". I agree with you. That's why you MUST train outside of your dojo/dojang/kwoon/gym, if not your style.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Bigshadow said:


> Bill and Jason's scores remind me of an old saying, "Even a blind chicken finds a kernel of corn now and then!"  That is the thing about matches.



"I had this broken watch once, & even it was right twice a day."


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> Really?
> Do you really want to watch the aftermath, and work damage control when Nagato is beaten ?
> Seriously?
> You dont think its possible?


 Possible? Yes. Probable? Absolutely Not.



> Sean Askew may be good as far as bujinkan fighters go...but I still dont think he would have lasted very long H2H with Jason Chambers. I could be wrong.


 Yes, you sure could. Who do you train with again?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Personally I do not think we should throw Nagato's name around. Even though I know many people do.  Just my 02.


----------



## MJS

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally I do not think we should throw Nagato's name around. Even though I know many people do. Just my 02.


 
I agree.  I still wonder though why people are harping on one aspect, rather than looking at the whole picture.  Dale made a great point with his post.  Chuck Liddell has lost fights, so has Ken Shamrock, and Randy, to name a few.  Yet those same people still have a strong fanbase, despite a loss.  This was simply a game of tag.  Would the results have been different if another weapon was used, instead of a sword?  Would empty hand have been different?  If someone was really trying to attack the Bujinkan guys, in a real situation, would the outcome be different?  

So many what ifs.  I just find it odd, because I'm sure there're are people out there that have successfully used their skills in a real situation, and have come out on top.  But because its not on tape it probably never happened.  *rolls eyes*


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

[yt]3uUeHEqDe40[/yt]

Here is some of the show.  It takes awhile to load.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Here is the last part of the show though it has no show. (same clip as Dave posted earlier but it is back up now)

[yt]a4w3FzJT8ec&feature=related[/yt]


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

MJS said:


> I agree. I still wonder though why people are harping on one aspect, rather than looking at the whole picture. Dale made a great point with his post. Chuck Liddell has lost fights, so has Ken Shamrock, and Randy, to name a few. Yet those same people still have a strong fanbase, despite a loss. This was simply a game of tag. Would the results have been different if another weapon was used, instead of a sword? Would empty hand have been different? If someone was really trying to attack the Bujinkan guys, in a real situation, would the outcome be different?
> 
> So many what ifs. I just find it odd, because I'm sure there're are people out there that have successfully used their skills in a real situation, and have come out on top. But because its not on tape it probably never happened. *rolls eyes*


 
Well judging by the amount of Budo Taijutsu people in the Military, Law Enforcement, Corrections, Security etc. I would bet that it has been used successfully a few times as well.


----------



## Seattletcj

Doc_Jude said:


> Yes, you sure could. Who do you train with again?




LOL. what?
What relevance does this have?
 BIll Atkins, Aric Keith, I van Salaverry.


----------



## newtothe dark

I watched the episode and enjoyed it for what it was. Now that being said I have a slightly different take on it. 
    I had spoke earlier that I was very afraid of a new 'Ninja boom' I am new to this art so am no authority by any means, but having looked back over time a bit I dont think anyone except the weapons and video stores benifited from the last boom. It created alot of impostors and alot od strife. 
   I dont think the show really 'impressed' anyone into "oh I need to go find a ninja school' and I am glad. There seems to be enough politics and infighting in the x-cans to not need alot of press oneway or the other. Then people are always jockying for the spotlight. I think that is something good about it it focused lightl heartedly on Budo and maybe should be left at that.
  I raelise that I am most likely going to get flamed for this feeling but so goes life hehe. I love the art and just didnt want it to go crazy again.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well judging by the amount of Budo Taijutsu people in the Military, Law Enforcement, Corrections, Security etc. I would bet that it has been used successfully a few times as well.


Yes it has been used successfully Mr. VanCise I've been in BOTH Corrections and Law Enforcement the latter being my current employment. I've had several fellow officers that were Budo Taijutsu practioners and have survive rather wild encounters in the streets and jails. I may have been a little too hard on the 13 and 15th dan in the beginning but maybe Doug got a little overzealous as what I saw he may have been trying to "force" the technique. As Jack Hoban once said in one of his seminars..."Techniques are like girlfriends if you try to force them, they will break you heart." But in reality someone of that much training and experience shouldn't destroy a beginner just because they can.....even if they are tv hosts.


----------



## arnisador

MJS said:


> This was simply a game of tag.  Would the results have been different if another weapon was used, instead of a sword?



Certainly we see this in the FMA all the time--sword-sparring can create a "tag" situation such that someone who focuses on good swordwork, which would be successful in reality, may do worse in a sparring situation. The game and the reality aren't the same. There was a great post on the idea here on MT a while back.

Someone trying to deliver a cut that would stop a person could easily be beaten by someone playing touch-tag. I thought I saw some of that here, though honestly not nearly as much as I expected before viewing it.


----------



## Dale Seago

Some direct quotes from Bill and Jason on what their own direct experience of the Bujinkan folks was like for them:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1358737#post1358737


----------



## MJS

Dale Seago said:


> Some direct quotes from Bill and Jason on what their own direct experience of the Bujinkan folks was like for them:
> 
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1358737#post1358737


 
Pretty interesting.  I also took interest in some comments that some were making regarding Doug and Jason.  Now, maybe I'm missing it, but I watched the clip of their fight a few times.  People are saying that when Jason had the sword, and was mounted on Dougs back, that Doug took a stab to his face/neck.  Supposedly this was pretty clear, although I'll admit it didn't seem that way to me.  You can't clearly see Dougs head, so I'm wondering how this was so easily seen?

Like its been said...people will look for every little thing to attempt to discredit the Bujinkan.  Its the same old boring argument, over and over.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Personally I do not think we should throw Nagato's name around. Even though I know many people do.  Just my 02.



It was more to match size than anything else. I was surprised that Yost didn't end up scrapping with Bill. I thought that was what was going to happen.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> LOL. what?
> What relevance does this have?
> BIll Atkins, Aric Keith, I van Salaverry.



None. We talked about it before & I forgot. Just trying to get an idea of where you're coming from, that's all. The Booj is varied.


----------



## Doc_Jude

MJS said:


> Pretty interesting.  I also took interest in some comments that some were making regarding Doug and Jason.  Now, maybe I'm missing it, but I watched the clip of their fight a few times.  People are saying that when Jason had the sword, and was mounted on Dougs back, that Doug took a stab to his face/neck.  Supposedly this was pretty clear, although I'll admit it didn't seem that way to me.  You can't clearly see Dougs head, so I'm wondering how this was so easily seen?



I watched the YouTube vid, it looked to me that Jason had a VERY unstable back mount and right when he was going to stab Doug in the back, Doug bucked, Jason lost his balance, and the stab went past him, catching on his gi under the right armpit. Then, in his attempt to regain his balance, he lost the weapon.
Doug never got hit, & if he did, a cut the the lat isn't very lethal.

My Pentjak Silat teacher was rather impressed by this episode, he liked the Bujinkan showing. He echoed a point made about sparring vs reality: If these were real weapons, this episode would have been five minutes shorter & the History Channel would be looking for two new employees.


----------



## Seattletcj

I think Doug did an exceptional job.

Having said that, he was obviously stabbed/cut in the throat/face on the ground. Watch it again.
I mean, why did they stop it there if it wasnt good enough?






Are we really gonna get to the point here where we debate the exact depth of the cut in millimeters in order to feel more secure? 

Lets be mature losers and good sports about this.


I dont think anyone has commented on Dougs outstanding muto dori.
Moving in on an armed swordsman and successfully disarming him is extremly admirable.
Check it out. 
Everyone is so concerned with the sweep they missed the muto dori.

BTW Jasons sweep was technically excellent.
I guess the myth that sparring creates sloppy and incorrect technique can finally be put to rest for BJK guys.


----------



## MJS

Seattletcj said:


> I think Doug did an exceptional job.
> 
> Having said that, he was obviously stabbed/cut in the throat/face on the ground. Watch it again.
> I mean, why did they stop it there if it wasnt good enough?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are we really gonna get to the point here where we debate the exact depth of the cut in millimeters in order to feel more secure?
> 
> Lets be mature losers and good sports about this.
> 
> 
> I dont think anyone has commented on Dougs outstanding muto dori.
> Moving in on an armed swordsman and successfully disarming him is extremly admirable.
> Check it out.
> Everyone is so concerned with the sweep they missed the muto dori.
> 
> BTW Jasons sweep was technically excellent.
> I guess the myth that sparring creates sloppy and incorrect technique can finally be put to rest for BJK guys.


 
Sorry, but I have to go with Doc on this. I just watched it a few more times, and you can't even see Dougs head when Jason does the stab. I thought contact had to be made in order for there to be a point? Was Jason in fact given a point for that supposed shot?

And you're right...nobody is commenting on anything else.  Why?  Because some people are too busy bashing the art, too busy talking about BJJ, etc.  So..that being said, we are in agreement on at least that much.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> Having said that, he was obviously stabbed/cut in the throat/face on the ground. Watch it again.



No he wasn't "stabbed/cut in the throat/face". You obviously don't know the definition of "obvious".


----------



## Seattletcj

Doc_Jude said:


> No he wasn't "stabbed/cut in the throat/face". You obviously don't know the definition of "obvious".



I didnt/dont see anyone involved then or now contesting the shot.
Doug has not commented on it. Yost has not commented on it.
It happened at Hombu, in front of a dozen Bujinkan guys.

Why then should we ASSUME anything other then what you can see?

This is stupid.
I'll concede ...it may only have been a shallow cut to the throat with a katana.

LOL


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> I didnt/dont see anyone involved then or now contesting the shot.
> Doug has not commented on it. Yost has not commented on it.
> It happened at Hombu, in front of a dozen Bujinkan guys.
> 
> Why then should we ASSUME anything other then what you can see?
> 
> This is stupid.
> I'll concede ...it may only have been a shallow cut to the throat with a katana.
> 
> LOL



There is a YouTube vid on this thread. Pls post the time of this illusory stabbing.


----------



## Ronnin

I think this argument has gotten a bit elementry. Everyone IS judging by millimeters. And "a cut to the lat isn't very lethal"?????  hahahahahaha
where do you come from? i hate papercuts !! I think Jason did well (i am speaking only with the H2H) because, lets face it, MMA guys train like they fight, everyday, EVERYDAY. everyday they go to their dojo, they end the day with a "fight", a real fight. next time everyone is at thier dojo's, look around, pay attention to what your whole training day has consisted of. a lot of standing around listening, a lot of 1/4 speed technique, then very few 1/2 speed techniques. and even then your uke is not acting like a real combatent. these MMA guys FIGHT everyday they go in. it's no wonder. were the real ninjas of old good, without a doubt, and the samurai, shaolin, phillipinos, all were extremely deadly because they HAD to use it for real, and they did, everyday !!!!
we go 2,3, mabe 4 times a week, for the single guys. again it's no wonder.


----------



## arnisador

Doc_Jude said:


> Pls post the time of this illusory stabbing.



This feels like grasping at straws. If you let someone get your back with a sword in their hands you've had a bad day, even if by luck you don't get hit. As to non-lethal sword cuts...well, every sword cut is yet another sign that you're not having a good day. Losing a lat may be "just a flesh wound" as the Black Knight would say but it's sure going to lower your odds of winning.

Wehn I saw him having the back and stabbing I thought he was being a little careful for fear of catching his face with the tip and really hurting somebody. I'm going to award him a cut there.

I didn't think either side had anything to be embarrassed about.


----------



## LuzRD

ok i just watched the scene in question several times, and the camera did not get a good angle on the strike. in all "likelihood" though Jason earned that point IMO.
It seems to me that Doug was doing a good job getting out from under Jason when Jason grabbed the "weapon". then Jason seemed to go out of his way to strike at dougs face/head when Dougs back wouldve been an easier and less questionable strike.
The only question i have about this particular scene is "how would it have gone if Jason couldnt have reached the sword?"



MJS said:


> People are saying that when Jason had the sword, and was mounted on Dougs back, that Doug took a stab to his face/neck.  Supposedly this was pretty clear, although I'll admit it didn't seem that way to me.  You can't clearly see Dougs head, so I'm wondering how this was so easily seen?



while Jason was mounted on Doug back, Doug's head was under his shoulder (while rolling out from under Jason). you can tell where Dougs head should be at this point, and thats where Jasons strike seems to go. however since our view of Jasons strike was blocked by Dougs shoulder we cant know for certain where it landed or how effective it wouldve been.


----------



## newtothe dark

This does seem like we are looking for little details to 'save face' it was what it was a good fight.


----------



## Bigshadow

Dale Seago said:


> Some direct quotes from Bill and Jason on what their own direct experience of the Bujinkan folks was like for them:
> 
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1358737#post1358737



Thanks Dale!  I caught that on the show, too.  Definitely worth repeating!


----------



## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> I watched the YouTube vid, it looked to me that Jason had a VERY unstable back mount and right when he was going to stab Doug in the back, Doug bucked, Jason lost his balance, and the stab went past him, catching on his gi under the right armpit. Then, in his attempt to regain his balance, he lost the weapon.
> * Doug never got hit, & if he did, a cut the the lat isn't very lethal.*



Absolutely!  I stepped through it before ripping the tag session and it appears to have missed (close but no cigar).  I could probably do some still captures if I can get around to it.  Gotta train tonight, so another time!


----------



## LuzRD

i have to disagree with you guys.
it looks to me like Jason was going for Dougs head/face. there is a moment just before Doug bucks Jason off that you can see Jason strikes down with the sword and it is an intentional strike, granted it was rushed and may have been "close enough" due to the amount of time he had so not to put Dougs eye out or otherwise injure him.  


if i had to guess (which i suppose were all doing :wavey . judging by the location of Dougs head, and the angle of the sword when Jason struck. id say that the tip of the sword would have been on the mat just in front of Dougs jaw (or on Dougs hand which was also in that same area)

of course with that one camera angle noone can tell with any certainty what exactly happened unless they were there. i say we leave it at Doug had some fun training (like doug said in his blog) to see what would happen AFTER dominating the match to that point


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

This is a little point in the overall scheme of the show.  Bruce lost though it was close and Bill Duff has great athletic atributes.  Doug was excellent with the sword and made a poor judgement call in a competition to go in and grapple when he was clearly dominating.  As to Jason being on his back well...... we will just never know how that strike played out but I am comfortable enough in giving Jason that point.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Ronnin said:


> I think this argument has gotten a bit elementry. Everyone IS judging by millimeters. And "a cut to the lat isn't very lethal"?????  hahahahahaha.



Yes, because a millimeter is still a miss. *IF YOU CAN SEE IT, POST A TIME FROM THE VIDEO!!!* If you have a problem with that, leave the conversation. & if *YOU* actually think that a little cut to the latissimus dorsi IS lethal, or even crippling, you need to get out more & study some anatomy.




*hahahahaahahahaha*


----------



## Doc_Jude

arnisador said:


> This feels like grasping at straws. If you let someone get your back with a sword in their hands you've had a bad day, even if by luck you don't get hit. As to non-lethal sword cuts...well, every sword cut is yet another sign that you're not having a good day. Losing a lat may be "just a flesh wound" as the Black Knight would say but it's sure going to lower your odds of winning.
> 
> Wehn I saw him having the back and stabbing I thought he was being a little careful for fear of catching his face with the tip and really hurting somebody. I'm going to award him a cut there.
> 
> I didn't think either side had anything to be embarrassed about.



I agree, they both showed well, but DOUG WAS NOT STABBED. He was in a bad spot, but would have received not much more than a scratch on the lat, if that. IF ANYONE ACTUALLY SEES A SUCCESSFUL STRIKE WHILE JASON HAS THE REAR MOUNT, POST A TIME FROM THE YOUTUBE VIDEO OR DROP IT. We have video of the match, in case anyone forgot. Use it, or drop it.


----------



## jks9199

re: this whole "who really won" thing...

What's it matter?

The people who were there, on the scene and at the time, gave Jason the match.  He won THAT game.  Which was admittedly invented ON THE SPOT to meet the demands of the producers of the tv show...

What would have happened in the real world?  Don't know.  Can't tell from that game, either.  It did give the two Bujinkan guys a chance to play, without scripts.  I think they accounted themselves well; so did the hosts of the show.

Why the heck is anyone arguing over this?  Is it that hard to face the possibility that, under a very unusual situation, things didn't go ideally?  It's possible that I could visit Japan tomorrow, walk into the Bujinkan Hombu dojo, and slug Hatsumi.  Does that mean that I'm better than he is?  Or does it just mean that at one given moment, under one set of circumstances, I could hit him?  And, if I don't hit him... does that mean he's better -- or does it mean my approach didn't work?  And, for the record, I do believe Hatsumi is much more skilled than I am!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> re: this whole "who really won" thing...
> 
> What's it matter?
> 
> The people who were there, on the scene and at the time, gave Jason the match. He won THAT game. Which was admittedly invented ON THE SPOT to meet the demands of the producers of the tv show...
> 
> What would have happened in the real world? Don't know. Can't tell from that game, either. It did give the two Bujinkan guys a chance to play, without scripts. I think they accounted themselves well; so did the hosts of the show.
> 
> Why the heck is anyone arguing over this? Is it that hard to face the possibility that, under a very unusual situation, things didn't go ideally? It's possible that I could visit Japan tomorrow, walk into the Bujinkan Hombu dojo, and slug Hatsumi. Does that mean that I'm better than he is? Or does it just mean that at one given moment, under one set of circumstances, I could hit him? And, if I don't hit him... does that mean he's better -- or does it mean my approach didn't work? And, for the record, I do believe Hatsumi is much more skilled than I am!


 
Hey Jks9199 actually Bill won his match against Bruce while Jason was easily defeated by Doug in his match.  Truth be told though this whole thing is getting old!!!!!!

*As to the gist of your post you are right on!!!*


----------



## MJS

Doc_Jude said:


> I watched the YouTube vid, it looked to me that Jason had a VERY unstable back mount and right when he was going to stab Doug in the back, Doug bucked, Jason lost his balance, and the stab went past him, catching on his gi under the right armpit. Then, in his attempt to regain his balance, he lost the weapon.
> Doug never got hit, & if he did, a cut the the lat isn't very lethal.
> 
> My Pentjak Silat teacher was rather impressed by this episode, he liked the Bujinkan showing. He echoed a point made about sparring vs reality: If these were real weapons, this episode would have been five minutes shorter & the History Channel would be looking for two new employees.


 
Yup, this is how it looked to me as well.  So much for video being the deciding factor eh. LOL!


----------



## MJS

Ronnin said:


> I think this argument has gotten a bit elementry. Everyone IS judging by millimeters. And "a cut to the lat isn't very lethal"????? hahahahahaha
> where do you come from? i hate papercuts !! I think Jason did well (i am speaking only with the H2H) because, lets face it, MMA guys train like they fight, everyday, EVERYDAY. everyday they go to their dojo, they end the day with a "fight", a real fight. next time everyone is at thier dojo's, look around, pay attention to what your whole training day has consisted of. a lot of standing around listening, a lot of 1/4 speed technique, then very few 1/2 speed techniques. and even then your uke is not acting like a real combatent. these MMA guys FIGHT everyday they go in. it's no wonder. were the real ninjas of old good, without a doubt, and the samurai, shaolin, phillipinos, all were extremely deadly because they HAD to use it for real, and they did, everyday !!!!
> we go 2,3, mabe 4 times a week, for the single guys. again it's no wonder.


 
Well, I won't dispute all of this.    Of course, I'm sure there're some schools that are more hard core than others, and I'm not referring to MMA necessarily.  Personally, I get upset when I'm training and the other person is going half way with me.  I mean, thats the reason I train..to defend myself.  Nothing irks me more, when someone stops a punch 4 in. away for gives me a massage, rather than an actual choke.  Fortunately for me, I have some great teachers who keep it real for me. 

Mike


----------



## MJS

LuzRD said:


> while Jason was mounted on Doug back, Doug's head was under his shoulder (while rolling out from under Jason). you can tell where Dougs head should be at this point, and thats where Jasons strike seems to go. however since our view of Jasons strike was blocked by Dougs shoulder we cant know for certain where it landed or how effective it wouldve been.


 
Agreed.


----------



## MJS

For those who said this is getting silly...I agree, it is.  As I said in another post...it was simply a game of tag.  Everyone has good/bad days, and the outcome can vary from match to match, day to day.  The show gave the Bujinkan some good exposure, although, I'd have liked it to focus more on BBT, rather than going 'outside' for the knife, sword and shuriken work.  

Jason took Doug down.  And????  Royce was taken down, Chuck was beat, other fighters have been KO'd..yet they still have a huge fanbase.  

Keep training hard in your respective arts.  Keep an open mind to other things out there and strive to make yourself better each and every time you step into the training hall.  That is what makes a solid Martial Artist, nothing else.

Mike


----------



## Kichigai-no-Okami

Ok.  Changing the subject for a sec.  Just saw the show last night, and was wondering where that 'obstical course' is?  That at Hombu?
And in regards to the show in it"s entirety,  it was a good show, and  I just took it for what it was, a show; entertainment, even with a little misinformation present. (That Kenjutsu Sensei looked annoyed that there were a couple of chattering gaijin in his dojo, though !)


----------



## Ronnin

Doc_Jude said:


> Yes, because a millimeter is still a miss. *IF YOU CAN SEE IT, POST A TIME FROM THE VIDEO!!!* If you have a problem with that, leave the conversation. & if *YOU* actually think that a little cut to the latissimus dorsi IS lethal, or even crippling, you need to get out more & study some anatomy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *hahahahaahahahaha*


hmmmm......well i am a paramedic soooo.......anyway, with a blade that's big and heavy, there is no small cut. go and a good inch into your side, a sword would easily cut an inch deep, simply by the weight of it, and tell me it doesn't take your will to fight away.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Ronnin said:


> hmmmm......well i am a paramedic soooo.......anyway, with a blade that's big and heavy, there is no small cut. go and a good inch into your side, a sword would easily cut an inch deep, simply by the weight of it, and tell me it doesn't take your will to fight away.



hmmmmm.....  I was a Navy Hospital Corpsman, sooooo..... People are shot and stabbed all the time in the mix, and don't know it until later, often after they kill their opponent or escape, and that's to essential structures & organs, etc, not a *minor* cut to a skeletal muscle. 

The Dubious Quick Kill 1  &  The Dubious Quick Kill 2

& I'm still waiting for that time of this figment of a stabbing. 


*hahahahahahahahahah*


----------



## Seattletcj

Doc_Jude said:


> If you have a problem with that, leave the conversation. & if *YOU* actually think that a little cut to the latissimus dorsi IS lethal, or even crippling, you need to get out more & study some anatomy.



Do you even know where the latissimus dorsi is located?
Maybe we're not watching the same video.

LOL
Heres a "lat" FYI










This is sooooo silly.
At 5:19 





The sword is thrust down into Dougs face/neck....it comes to a hard stop, obviously hitting something......
And Jason stops his attack, knowing he has scored a clean hit.
I believe I also hear someone yell "hit" in the background as it happens.

Jesus this is dumb. But the conspiracy seems to be gaining momentum on the forums.
Wonderful.


----------



## Ronnin

hahahahahaha   okay...........whatever you say guys. this is so pathetic, i'm outta this.


----------



## Rich Parsons

I just saw it with my DVR. 

I liked the final fight with the use of the Surikan as a distraction. I thought the guy from the Tai Bujaitsu art did it quite well and was able to smoothly with the stars to the sword and also from staff to sword. 

I enjoyed the episode.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Big Bill Duff (BBD): I'm big and burly!
The Fighting Jason Chambers (FJC): And I'm small and squirrly!
BBD and FJC: And were to here make asses of ourselves on TV!
BBD: With my superior strength
FJC: And my MMA experiance
BBD and FJC: We'll take on people who've been doing this for years!

But I do like this show. A lot. Looking forward to FQ. For some reason I see BBD as a bear and FJC as a squirrel. An anime-esqe squirll. With lots of product in his hair. And a very high pitched voice. "C'monyoucandoit!Watchyourgaurdhandsupfightfightfight!C'monDuffster!oooooooooo!"


----------



## Doc_Jude

Rich Parsons said:


> I just saw it with my DVR.
> 
> I liked the final fight with the use of the Surikan as a distraction. I thought the guy from the Tai Bujaitsu art did it quite well and was able to smoothly with the stars to the sword and also from staff to sword.
> 
> I enjoyed the episode.



What?


----------



## Doc_Jude

Seattletcj said:


> Do you even know where the latissimus dorsi is located?
> Maybe we're not watching the same video.
> 
> LOL
> Heres a "lat" FYI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is sooooo silly.
> At 5:19
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The sword is thrust down into Dougs face/neck....it comes to a hard stop, obviously hitting something......
> And Jason stops his attack, knowing he has scored a clean hit.
> I believe I also hear someone yell "hit" in the background as it happens.
> 
> Jesus this is dumb. But the conspiracy seems to be gaining momentum on the forums.
> Wonderful.



No, I see the problem. There's another video. I'll try to find the one that I saw, the miss is clear. But you're right, it is dumb.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Does anyone know where the other footage is? It shows an almost overhead shot of that portion of Doug & Jason's match.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Bigshadow said:


> Absolutely!  I stepped through it before ripping the tag session and it appears to have missed (close but no cigar).  I could probably do some still captures if I can get around to it.  Gotta train tonight, so another time!



I assume that you saw the other footage that I'm talking about, would you mind posting something to clear this up? Thanks.


----------



## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> I assume that you saw the other footage that I'm talking about, would you mind posting something to clear this up? Thanks.



I went through it stop frame and it still wasn't the evidence people are looking for, as there isn't a good angle on it.   However, after looking at how the shinai bent, and the position of Doug, it certainly seems to me that Doug was rolling around the blade and wasn't actually stabbed (it appeared to hit the floor just in front of his face), and before Jason could adjust, he lost his balance and was falling forward taking the sword with him.

I didn't post the 4 or 5 still shots I captured because while it is fun to pick it apart and say "See I told you Doug was awesome!", it really all is silly and I personally don't want to continue this debate any longer!  They all did well!


----------



## Bigshadow

Doc_Jude said:


> I assume that you saw the other footage that I'm talking about, would you mind posting something to clear this up? Thanks.



Oh I forgot to answer the question.... No I haven't seen "other" footage.  Sorry...


----------



## Rich Parsons

Doc_Jude said:


> What?




What What?

Did you have an actual question or you just picking another fight with negative posts?


----------



## Rich Parsons

Rich Parsons said:


> What What?
> 
> Did you have an actual question or you just picking another fight with negative posts?



Ok Jude, I will presume to understand your question.

Why did I make the comment that I like the episode?

Of course I do not like the hosts, but as Ihave stated that in other threads I did not repeat myself as I thought my opinion was known.

Since, I know some people who practice the art, it could a couple of things.

First, I am just being PC and saying I like it and move on.

Second, I could be secretly enthrlled by wanting to be a ninja and therefore say all ninja stuff is cool. As this is really not me, I will have to say no to this.

Third, I could dislike the art compeltely, and want to just point out something that was positive as opposed to be a negative type person.

Fourth, I did like the episode. I guess I am stupid. I disagree with you yet again. Wow surprising. I liked the idea of using a weapon to distract for another weapon. I could not care about the rank of those involved. The comment I made was about how the hosts looks awkward, and the practitioner of the art made it look smooth. 

I also liked the "REAL" blade training. Even at quarter speed. The number of people who freak out when a real blade is even shown them, let alone handed to them so you can show where the cuts will be on your body during certain technqiues. All done in a controlled fashion, and even with tape on the blade. Most people refuse to train this way, or even look at it. The other end is the other side wear people go full force with no real skill yet and just try to stab and cut people. and this is how injuries occur. 

I liked how they talked about some history and how they would infiltrate as farmers and other commoners to get into a place to spy. I liked the way they also had different people handle different weapons and skills. I thought this gave people a way to see different people in the art. I thought it also gave people a way to see different weapons and how their are pieces of this art that total up to the sum.

Finally, I know very little about this art, and wish to not get into an arguement with those here who are much more knowledgable then I am. So I make a simple statement and move on. I had no idea that someone who had attacked me in another thread would continue to attack me in this thread. 

Of course if you speaking of my slaughtering of the arts name, then I apologize first for the hack job on the name. Then I apologize for once again not truly understanding your oblique comment of "WHAT?" when my only experience with you is with you attacking me, and not being able to talk abotu the issues. Oh let us not forget that before the rep reset you had someone also give me negative rep for disagreeing with you. Bring this all together, and you get my response of confusion and not understanding why you are so negative and insulting. But, as I do not have time to understand your issues, I have my own, I will just add you to my ignore list.


In conclusion, it could be part of one, and three, and a lot of four and just a touch of five.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Rich Parsons said:


> Ok Jude, I will presume to understand your question.
> 
> Why did I make the comment that I like the episode?
> 
> Of course I do not like the hosts, but as Ihave stated that in other threads I did not repeat myself as I thought my opinion was known.
> 
> Since, I know some people who practice the art, it could a couple of things.
> 
> First, I am just being PC and saying I like it and move on.
> 
> Second, I could be secretly enthrlled by wanting to be a ninja and therefore say all ninja stuff is cool. As this is really not me, I will have to say no to this.
> 
> Third, I could dislike the art compeltely, and want to just point out something that was positive as opposed to be a negative type person.
> 
> Fourth, I did like the episode. I guess I am stupid. I disagree with you yet again. Wow surprising. I liked the idea of using a weapon to distract for another weapon. I could not care about the rank of those involved. The comment I made was about how the hosts looks awkward, and the practitioner of the art made it look smooth.
> 
> I also liked the "REAL" blade training. Even at quarter speed. The number of people who freak out when a real blade is even shown them, let alone handed to them so you can show where the cuts will be on your body during certain technqiues. All done in a controlled fashion, and even with tape on the blade. Most people refuse to train this way, or even look at it. The other end is the other side wear people go full force with no real skill yet and just try to stab and cut people. and this is how injuries occur.
> 
> I liked how they talked about some history and how they would infiltrate as farmers and other commoners to get into a place to spy. I liked the way they also had different people handle different weapons and skills. I thought this gave people a way to see different people in the art. I thought it also gave people a way to see different weapons and how their are pieces of this art that total up to the sum.
> 
> Finally, I know very little about this art, and wish to not get into an arguement with those here who are much more knowledgable then I am. So I make a simple statement and move on. I had no idea that someone who had attacked me in another thread would continue to attack me in this thread.
> 
> Of course if you speaking of my slaughtering of the arts name, then I apologize first for the hack job on the name. Then I apologize for once again not truly understanding your oblique comment of "WHAT?" when my only experience with you is with you attacking me, and not being able to talk abotu the issues. Oh let us not forget that before the rep reset you had someone also give me negative rep for disagreeing with you. Bring this all together, and you get my response of confusion and not understanding why you are so negative and insulting. But, as I do not have time to understand your issues, I have my own, I will just add you to my ignore list.
> 
> 
> In conclusion, it could be part of one, and three, and a lot of four and just a touch of five.



I agree with everything you said! Especially the blade training   ^_^ 

& sorry, I meant to say "why?" & I said "what?" Typo, I was tired. We can argue all we want about social issues, but I've read enough of your posts to respect your opinions on MAs.


----------



## Dale Seago

LuzRD said:


> while Jason was mounted on Doug back, Doug's head was under his shoulder (while rolling out from under Jason). you can tell where Dougs head should be at this point, and thats where Jasons strike seems to go. however since our view of Jasons strike was blocked by Dougs shoulder we cant know for certain where it landed or how effective it wouldve been.



Actually we can know for certain, through the magic of slow-motion replay. 

When I first watched it, it looked to me like Jason tried a cut from which Doug was continually moving away. But I now have a copy of the show downloaded directly from the initial broadcast and have looked at it a number of times in slow-mo. . .And I was wrong about what I thought I saw.

Jason wasn't trying to cut, it was a reverse-grip stab. Which missed. It didn't even  bounce off Doug on the way to the floor, it simply missed completely.

Based solely on what survived the editing process and was actually broadcast, I'd have to call the Jason/Doug match a clear "win" for Doug with weapons, and a draw -- with Doug being thrown, but then escaping without being stabbed or pinned -- on the hand-to-hand part.


----------



## Cruentus

Ronnin said:


> what I wonder about is Bill "fought" against, I can't recall his name, a 13th Dan, and Bill won! This happens through out the shows. How can this be? I know that it's not real combat and all, so everyone save that excuse for the next MMA thread, it's practice, there's no real threat of injury or death, so the 13th Dan should have taken Bill to school. I don't see how one week of training, Bill could stand in the same room with a 13th Dan. Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me?



How can this be?

It is very simple, and I will try to explain without offending anyones nerdy obsessions or unrealistic expectations (not saying that you have any, but I run into them with martial artists in general a lot).

The **** that we practice, and I am referring to combat arts, is not rocket science. When it comes down to application, the actual "fighting" part is very simple, and boils down to very few usable techniques, tactics, and strategies.  There is no 13th Dan or 15th Dan or ANY credential in any martial art that will make a person impervious to defeat of a fight or sporting contest related to fighting. And the fact is, if you take a couple of athletic guys who have been training in fighting arts and teach them the few things that will work, they can hold themselves up against the best from any art and be a formidable opponent. That is a fact, and that can be a real ***** for some of us who train for years and years; but it is still a fact. We are all human, and what works in fights (or fighting contests) is often very simple.

That said, the 13th and 15th Dan are very talented martial artists; and I have no doubts that they probably forget more Budo Taijutsu every day then Bill or Jason will ever learn in their lives. But, that doesn't make them invincible. And for that, it should be expected that talented athletes with some training in the right stuff would make formidable opponents for them.

At the end of the day, we are all still human beings.


----------



## Cruentus

Ronnin said:


> "Bruce  lost a very close match against Bill", see that's the thing.there's no way he should've lost.Take Bill's 10 days against Bruces 15 years ? Maybe it's time to entertain the idea that there are no such things as masters anymore, learn a few good moves, and it's anybodys game.



Just wanted to recap: I would say that the masters are the ones that master the few "good moves" (tactics and techniques), and can seperate those from the majority of the crap that doesn't work out there. But regardless, I would say that it is ALWAYS anybody's game.


----------



## Doc_Jude

Dale Seago said:


> Actually we can know for certain, through the magic of slow-motion replay.
> 
> When I first watched it, it looked to me like Jason tried a cut from which Doug was continually moving away. But I now have a copy of the show downloaded directly from the initial broadcast and have looked at it a number of times in slow-mo. . .And I was wrong about what I thought I saw.
> 
> Jason wasn't trying to cut, it was a reverse-grip stab. Which missed. It didn't even  bounce off Doug on the way to the floor, it simply missed completely.



That's what I thought. Thanks, Dale.


----------



## MJS

Dale Seago said:


> Actually we can know for certain, through the magic of slow-motion replay.
> 
> When I first watched it, it looked to me like Jason tried a cut from which Doug was continually moving away. But I now have a copy of the show downloaded directly from the initial broadcast and have looked at it a number of times in slow-mo. . .And I was wrong about what I thought I saw.
> 
> Jason wasn't trying to cut, it was a reverse-grip stab. Which missed. It didn't even bounce off Doug on the way to the floor, it simply missed completely.
> 
> Based solely on what survived the editing process and was actually broadcast, I'd have to call the Jason/Doug match a clear "win" for Doug with weapons, and a draw -- with Doug being thrown, but then escaping without being stabbed or pinned -- on the hand-to-hand part.


 
Likewise, I was thinking the same thing.  Thank you.



Cruentus said:


> How can this be?
> 
> It is very simple, and I will try to explain without offending anyones nerdy obsessions or unrealistic expectations (not saying that you have any, but I run into them with martial artists in general a lot).
> 
> The **** that we practice, and I am referring to combat arts, is not rocket science. When it comes down to application, the actual "fighting" part is very simple, and boils down to very few usable techniques, tactics, and strategies. There is no 13th Dan or 15th Dan or ANY credential in any martial art that will make a person impervious to defeat of a fight or sporting contest related to fighting. And the fact is, if you take a couple of athletic guys who have been training in fighting arts and teach them the few things that will work, they can hold themselves up against the best from any art and be a formidable opponent. That is a fact, and that can be a real ***** for some of us who train for years and years; but it is still a fact. We are all human, and what works in fights (or fighting contests) is often very simple.
> 
> That said, the 13th and 15th Dan are very talented martial artists; and I have no doubts that they probably forget more Budo Taijutsu every day then Bill or Jason will ever learn in their lives. But, that doesn't make them invincible. And for that, it should be expected that talented athletes with some training in the right stuff would make formidable opponents for them.
> 
> At the end of the day, we are all still human beings.


 
2 thumbs up for this post!!  I couldn't agree more.  I've said the same thing and it amazes me how so many people seem to forget that martial art training, does not come with a blue shirt with a big red S on the front. 

Mike


----------



## Dale Seago

MJS said:


> . . .it amazes me how so many people seem to forget that martial art training, does not come with a blue shirt with a big red S on the front.


 
That is so true!!


----------



## blood shadow

I think bill did a way better job than jason.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well all I know is that when watched that show again it started to make me wonder about all those traditional weapons. The Hombu looked alot like a museum of ancient Japanese weapons. But my point is that in the 21st century what is the point in learning such weapons today. I mean with probably the exception of the Bo, Jo, hanbo, tanto, kusarifundo, and maybe shuriken, what is the benefit of learning the bisento, the kusarigama, kyoketsushoge etc. etc. If you go walking anywhere carrying those weapons you're sure to get the attention of your friendly local law enforcement. Those were the weapons of choice of the Ninja and Samurai of Feudal Japan. I'm sure they were state of the art for their era. Today pepper spray and keyrings replaces metsubishi powder, handguns and tasers replace the sword, and folding knives are just good to have. I've been in the Bujinkan for a short period of time (going on 4 years) but as a cop I fail to see the benefit of training in ancient weapons. I only say this because the challenge was fighting with ancient weapons and I don't see that as practical in today's era. Any thoughts?


----------



## Rich Parsons

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Well all I know is that when watched that show again it started to make me wonder about all those traditional weapons. The Hombu looked alot like a museum of ancient Japanese weapons. But my point is that in the 21st century what is the point in learning such weapons today. I mean with probably the exception of the Bo, Jo, hanbo, tanto, kusarifundo, and maybe shuriken, what is the benefit of learning the bisento, the kusarigama, kyoketsushoge etc. etc. If you go walking anywhere carrying those weapons you're sure to get the attention of your friendly local law enforcement. Those were the weapons of choice of the Ninja and Samurai of Feudal Japan. I'm sure they were state of the art for their era. Today pepper spray and keyrings replaces metsubishi powder, handguns and tasers replace the sword, and folding knives are just good to have. I've been in the Bujinkan for a short period of time (going on 4 years) but as a cop I fail to see the benefit of training in ancient weapons. I only say this because the challenge was fighting with ancient weapons and I don't see that as practical in today's era. Any thoughts?



I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.

1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor. 

2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing. 

3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question. 

3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons. 

3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively. 

Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view. 

Thanks


----------



## Doc_Jude

Rich Parsons said:


> I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.
> 
> 1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor.
> 
> 2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing.
> 
> 3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question.
> 
> 3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons.
> 
> 3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively.
> 
> Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view.
> 
> Thanks



Yep. Having spent over a decade in the Bujinkan, I would fully agree with your assessment.


----------



## Cryozombie

IMO many of those traditional weapons can be a bit unforgiving if you try and use them and your kamae is bad...


----------



## jks9199

I think there are two main reasons to train with so-called obsolete weapons.  First, to preserve the historical tradition and knowledge.  It's sad what's been lost because nobody thought to preserve an "obsolete" weapon...  which also brings me to the second reason.  To wit -- those "obsolete" weapons have lessons to teach which are applicable to weapons today.  Some of those lessons may be stance or body dynamics (I've had students suddenly leap forward in understanding after they work the long stick in my system, for example, because it forces them to work both hands together).  Others are principles that can be adapted to another weapon or improvised tool, like using principles from spear with a rifle and bayonet or dagger principles with a folding knife or a USMC-style fighting knife.  Another example might be the use of eye-blinding chemicals; I'm pretty confident the concerns and tactics of using an eggshell filled with a powder and something like a pepperball or OC spray aren't wildly dissimilar, for example.  And I'm sure the principle of capitalizing on the momentary distraction caused by the chemical is very applicable.  And -- speaking as a cop myself -- understanding those "obsolete" weapons helps understand what someone can do with a similar weapon.  Many Eastern long swords, including the katana, have similarities in use and capability, for example, to the preferred weapon of MS-13 and several other Latino street gangs, the machete.  Principles of a short stick or club apply to someone armed with a baseball bat.  And so on.  (Wouldn't it help your articulation of the use of deadly force against someone using a baseball bat if you can say that you know clubs of like design can cause serious damage, breaking bones and crushing skulls?)


----------



## Bigshadow

Rich Parsons said:


> I do not practice the art in question, but I do train with weapons of all types, and yes I do have some thoughts.
> 
> 1) Training for nothing more than the pleasure of the movement alone is a worth while endeavor.
> 
> 2) Training to preserve and understand the past is also a good thing.
> 
> 3) Understanding a weapon and using it also allows one to understand the weaknesses of the weapon in question.
> 
> 3A) Bad guys will use lots of things. I agree that more will use traditional weapons like a firearm or a knife, but I have had golf clubs, baseball bats, tire irons, hockey sticks, belts, and lots of non traditional modern weapons.
> 
> 3B) Being able to adapt to multiple styles of weapons, trains the mind to be able to adapt to new situations. In training the mind to adapt and not be locked into an absolute, the mind as a weapon can be used much more effectively.
> 
> Of course, I bow to the experts of the art to give their point of view.
> 
> Thanks




I have only been in for 5 years now and would have to agree with this!


----------



## Bill Sempf

In my school, we approach each weapon as just a geometric shape, which totally changes the way I train.  While I also completely agree with Mr. Parsons (I have six years in Aikido training classical kata with jo and katana) I like the geometric shape philosophy for its utility.  The kusari fundo is any short flexible weapon.  A belt.  The shoge is any long flexible weapon.  An extension cord.

We don't even train with a sword, because it has no analogue.  We do train with a handgun (as a HTH weapon) because it is a common shape these days, sadly.

It's a pretty cool concept.  We have a weapon per kyu, and then are expected to perform any significant taijutsu on our test using a weapon.  I feel like it is very useful, but I do miss the classic 'satisfaction of movement' that you get from doing things that were done 1000 years ago.

Just my $0.02, but I like this direction the thread has taken.

S


----------



## Dale Seago

Doc_Jude said:


> Yep. Having spent over a decade in the Bujinkan, I would fully agree with your assessment.



I've spent 24 years in the Bujinkan so far, and I also agree. . .and with jks9199 as well. A big-**** "thumbs up" to both!!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Almost any tool from the past can be replicated in some form today or currently is in some form today.  Really those tools are not all that obsolete.  As for beign able to learn the distance and timing from them well that is priceless.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Well first of all I do have to say that everyone has some good and valid points on traditional weapons. And I am not against the preservation of tradional weapons training as there still exists fencing, civil war reenactments and many hunters still use bows and muzzle loading weapons. I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times. And being that our art is taught as a warrior way of life in that there is alot of traditional military battlefield and covert type methods that is a part of the Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan (although the ninjutsu secret squirrel stuff for the most part isn't taught anymore). That maybe we should lean towards what is readily available in this 21st century world of violence. Things like defensive driving and self defense around a vehicle. Gun safety and training and conceal carry (for legal purposes and with a permit in a state that allows it). Tactical knife carry, draw and defense. Chemical agent use, carry and defense. These are all "modern" tools used by both the military and law enforcement and law abiding citizens as well as the criminal/terrorist element. While I totally agree that there is alot of benefit to be gained in training in the traditional weapons but like I said before those were state of the art 1000 years ago. You don't see our military lining up in ranks and exchanging volleys of fire with their adversary. One can say that kind of training builds firing discipline and courage but its no longer use anymore since the battlefield has changed and the military changed with it. The same thing can be applied to our everyday lives. We no longer have to fear oppressive Samurai beheading any peasant for whatever reasons. We have mall shootings, college and school shootings, drive bys, home invasions and car jackings. Thats what we face everyday we live in America. Our streets and parks are more dangerous than even Iraq or Afghanistan statistically on an annual basis. I'm just saying that maybe we should update our 18 skills of the Ninja the Juhhakei for modern day survival as well as learning the traditional methods. And just for the record my favorite traditional weapon is the Kusarigama so yes I do train in traditional weapons.


----------



## Bigshadow

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times.



What follows is just my opinion....

Humans have remained relatively unchanged for thousands of years, they have two arms and two legs that are relative to their body height.  They have been fighting for as long as they have existed.  The only thing that has significantly changed are the weapons (range, speed, effectiveness).  However, beyond the specific weapons attributes, they still have basic fundamental attributes that are inherent in using weapons usage. Much like the manipulation of space, timing, and balance, applies to war and fighting among nations, armies, or individuals.  Just as it applies to achieving business opportunities and opportunities in life in general.   

I believe the "Living" art doesn't "change", but rather grows, becoming wiser, and taking in new perspectives and experiences. So in essence it is change, but I don't believe it is in the form of an apple turning into an orange, more like the apple becomes sweeter.  It is much like growing older and wiser, IMO.

Then again, I could be all wrong.


----------



## Dale Seago

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> Well first of all I do have to say that everyone has some good and valid points on traditional weapons. And I am not against the preservation of tradional weapons training as there still exists fencing, civil war reenactments and many hunters still use bows and muzzle loading weapons. I'm only stating that maybe since we train in budo in modern days as ours is a "living" art and as such it changes with the times. And being that our art is taught as a warrior way of life in that there is alot of traditional military battlefield and covert type methods that is a part of the Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan (although the ninjutsu secret squirrel stuff for the most part isn't taught anymore). That maybe we should lean towards what is readily available in this 21st century world of violence. Things like defensive driving and self defense around a vehicle. Gun safety and training and conceal carry (for legal purposes and with a permit in a state that allows it). Tactical knife carry, draw and defense. Chemical agent use, carry and defense. These are all "modern" tools used by both the military and law enforcement and law abiding citizens as well as the criminal/terrorist element. While I totally agree that there is alot of benefit to be gained in training in the traditional weapons but like I said before those were state of the art 1000 years ago. You don't see our military lining up in ranks and exchanging volleys of fire with their adversary. One can say that kind of training builds firing discipline and courage but its no longer use anymore since the battlefield has changed and the military changed with it. The same thing can be applied to our everyday lives. We no longer have to fear oppressive Samurai beheading any peasant for whatever reasons. We have mall shootings, college and school shootings, drive bys, home invasions and car jackings. Thats what we face everyday we live in America. Our streets and parks are more dangerous than even Iraq or Afghanistan statistically on an annual basis. I'm just saying that maybe we should update our 18 skills of the Ninja the Juhhakei for modern day survival as well as learning the traditional methods. And just for the record my favorite traditional weapon is the Kusarigama so yes I do train in traditional weapons.



No disagreement here. . .But perhaps you're simply not aware of the extent to which Hatsumi sensei does such things in his teaching? The old waza and kata are simply a core or base to work from, and I've heard him say more than once that a true martial art does not need to fundamentally change just because technology changes: Rather, it _incorporates_ the new into the overall knowledge base in such a way that the practitioner can make the best use of it.


----------



## newtothe dark

Bigshadow said:


> What follows is just my opinion....
> 
> Humans have remained relatively unchanged for thousands of years, they have two arms and two legs that are relative to their body height. They have been fighting for as long as they have existed. The only thing that has significantly changed are the weapons (range, speed, effectiveness). However, beyond the specific weapons attributes, they still have basic fundamental attributes that are inherent in using weapons usage. Much like the manipulation of space, timing, and balance, applies to war and fighting among nations, armies, or individuals. Just as it applies to achieving business opportunities and opportunities in life in general.
> 
> I believe the "Living" art doesn't "change", but rather grows, becoming wiser, and taking in new perspectives and experiences. So in essence it is change, but I don't believe it is in the form of an apple turning into an orange, more like the apple becomes sweeter. It is much like growing older and wiser, IMO.
> 
> Then again, I could be all wrong.


 
Nice post I believe Darwin talked about this and called it evolution. Man has changed as has many things but they are still man and this baseness with the newness is what is our own uniqueness. i hope that came out right and most likely is spelled wrong. Oh well good post Bigshadow.


----------



## Obi Wan Shinobi

Dale Seago said:


> No disagreement here. . .But perhaps you're simply not aware of the extent to which Hatsumi sensei does such things in his teaching? The old waza and kata are simply a core or base to work from, and I've heard him say more than once that a true martial art does not need to fundamentally change just because technology changes: Rather, it _incorporates_ the new into the overall knowledge base in such a way that the practitioner can make the best use of it.


 

Hey Dale....actually no I wasn't aware that Hatsumi Sensei did that in his teachings. But thats pretty much what I'm saying is that we should "incorporate" these teachings as well with the traditional weapons. I've always respect your input in these forums and am quite honored of your input concerning my question. I'll make it a point to incorporate the new with the old. Thanks.


----------



## Dale Seago

Obi Wan Shinobi said:


> I'll make it a point to incorporate the new with the old.



Some hopefully-helpful hints to get you on your way:



> And of course we're beginning to work with the "Escaping Rat" forms as well; actually, we only finally got into the first one last week as I didn't feel folks were ready yet and I wanted to do other things with characteristic Togakure tactics and movement for a while first. (Even though it's been many years since Togakure ryu was a "theme" for the Bujinkan, I have an advantage in that this is my 3rd training cycle in it and I have the perspective to add from all the "annual theme" concepts since it was last stressed in '91.)
> 
> This past Sunday I had my usual 3rd-Sunday-of-the-month "monthly mini-seminar" from 10-14:00 and spent almost all of it on the "Tonkatsugata" (hee!!)
> 
> We spent the first two hours just on the first "escaping rat" form: The timing (which isn't shown in the Quest video), the mechanics, how to do it without getting killed. Then we worked on "why someone might grab your wrist and yank it" and what that could lead to. Then we began adding accessing & using weapons (carried in different ways on different parts of your body), then doing it unarmed vs. multiple attackers, then using it vs. multiple attackers while accessing and using weapons.
> 
> We didn't restrict ourselves to 16th-century scenarios. Specific weapons we brought into play included tanto or wakizashi worn in the traditional position; shuriken held concealed in the hand or hidden in the gi jacket; modern pistol holstered at the right hip; folding knife clipped into a pants pocket; and modern tactical carbine or shotgun held at the shoulder ("bad guy" grabs the barrel to yank it offline so he can deal with you and get your weapon -- remember, we have security/law enforcement/military types training in our dojo). All of these require adapting your use of space within the parameters of the original form in such a way that an opponent can't get at your weapon but YOU can.
> (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60258)



Another point: Traditional disarming & retention methods used for knives, swords, and polearms work just fine today with handguns, rifles/carbines, & shotguns. The only difference is that instead of thinking about edges & points you have to think about things like muzzle blast, alignment of the bore, and collateral damage to "background" targets. These things will create some natural modifications of what you do, but not fundamental change.

And another: The Daikomyosai video from 3 or 4 years back focused heavily on armored combat. Find that one, study it, extrapolate the principles. . .Then put on the kevlar, helmet, boots, and load carrying equipment (and modern weapons) and play.  You'll find that the more things change, the more they remain the same.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Dale Seago said:


> Some hopefully-helpful hints to get you on your way:
> 
> 
> 
> Another point: Traditional disarming & retention methods used for knives, swords, and polearms work just fine today with handguns, rifles/carbines, & shotguns. The only difference is that instead of thinking about edges & points you have to think about things like muzzle blast, alignment of the bore, and collateral damage to "background" targets. These things will create some natural modifications of what you do, but not fundamental change.
> 
> And another: The Daikomyosai video from 3 or 4 years back focused heavily on armored combat. Find that one, study it, extrapolate the principles. . .Then put on the kevlar, helmet, boots, and load carrying equipment (and modern weapons) and play.  You'll find that the more things change, the more they remain the same.


 
Yes it is funny in that how even though things change, the more they reamain the same.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi

I was going to mention that I did see Hatsumi Sensei drawing a training pistol into a hip shooting position on Kobudo No Kihon during the Jumonji no Kamae.


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