# Are there ANY genuine Shaolin monks?



## kal

OK, I know that most of the so-called "Shaolin Monks" you see are nothing more than wushu athletes who the Chinese government has given robes and shaved heads.

I'm also aware that the ones who travel around the world giving demos (eg Wheel of Life) are just circus performers. Same for these guys:




 
But are ALL the monks frauds? Are there ANY remaining that are genuine? What about the people featured in these types of documentaries?





 
Are they also basically wushu people wearing robes? 

How can you tell which (if any!) Shaolin people in China are genuine?


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## Mei Hua

There are still some "real" monks around, though not many.

They do not travel or demonstrate like the monk actors do, but they do exist at the temple.


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## kal

What about these books by Matthew Polly (American Shaolin) and Antonio Graceffo (Monk From Brooklyn)?

Were these guys actually doing genuine Shaolin in China, or simply Wushu?

And for that matter, what about Mark Saltzman (Iron & Silk)? Was he learning genuine martial arts from Pan Qing Fu? Or was that also merely Wushu?


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## michaeledward

I read Polly's book. 

He gives a pretty good explanation about the Chinese Government and how it shut down the Shoalin Temple in the middle of the last century. The Shoalin Temple re-opened in the 80's. 

I believe that much of the historical and cultural knowlege of the place was lost in those years where it was not functioning. But in closing the temple, the government did not purge all of the monks; some remained. 

When the temple reopened, I believe some of the retained knowlege was available to be passed on. 

One of the neat things about Polly's book, and his story, is that he travelled to China while it was still a pretty closed country. It was a nice cultural comparison.


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## Taijiguy

I'd also like to say that being a monk has zilch to do with what kind, or how good, your martial arts is.  Someone can practice 100% authentic Shaolin kungfu, shave their head, and dress like a monk and not be a monk.  On the other hand, someone could practice modern wushu, tae kwon do, soccer, whatever and still be considered a monk.  Many monks in China are not considered true monks as they're there more for tourism purposes (to run the gift shops, maintain the temple grounds, put on performances, etc.) or in some cases, as a government agent to help control religion.  Often they become monks as a way of having a job rather than spiritual reasons, particularly in Shaolin.  Of course being a monk is also an internal spiritual matter, so there's no reason someone in the temples can't be a real monk if they want.


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## AceHBK

Shifu Shi Yan-Ming 
- 34th Generation Shaolin Temple Monk
- In New York, Shifu founded the U.S.A. Shaolin Temple 
- Shifu Shi Yan-Ming defected to the U.S in 1992 while on the first-ever 
Shaolin Temple Monks tour of the United States. On the last date of the tour in San Francisco he slipped out of the hotel in the middle of the night and escaped to the new world. 

Youtube his name and u will find clips as well as clips on his webpage.

http://www.usashaolintemple.com/


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## Rabu

I would suggest the answer is both no and yes.

No, there are no living Shaolin monks as has been described in the oral traditions passed down or as seen in movies or written about in books.  (or martial fairy tales for that matter)

Yes, there are currently monks who live on the grounds of the Shaolin Temple.  Some of them practice martial arts.  Some may practice Buddhism.  Hard to say really, in a country which crushes any religious practice.

Give it a few more generations and the distinction will fade and be unimportant.

Jet Li noted that in his visit to the Shao Lin temple in 1978, that only three people resided in the temple.  The head abbot, a janitor and a cook.  According to him, none of them had any martial arts knowledge.


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## pstarr

I have to agree.  I don't believe that any of the "real" martial-art type Shao-lin monks still exist.  There are many who allege that that's what they are but they are, in fact, wushu athletes in saffron robes.


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## Flying Crane

Years ago, my sifu travelled to the Shaolin temple.  While there, he demonstrated some Longfist forms that he learned from his instructor, who was from Jing Wu.  Some of the old monks who were there commented to him, "Ah, we remember when they USED TO do this kind of thing here at the temple".  Now, it seems it's mostly Modern Wushu.  Impressive athleticism, but not a solid fighting art.


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## Steel Tiger

Rabu said:


> Jet Li noted that in his visit to the Shao Lin temple in 1978, that only three people resided in the temple. The head abbot, a janitor and a cook. According to him, none of them had any martial arts knowledge.


 
This actually dovetails well with the observations my first teacher made when he went to Shaolin in the early 1980s.  He found that there were only three monks.  They were very old, the youngest was 79, and were not allowed to teach Chan Buddhism to anyone.  He said there were a lot of soldiers around pretending to be Shaolin Monks. 

It is interesting the Jet said the guys he saw had no MA knowledge because I have seen footage of one of the monks performing a form and sparring with my former teacher.  

By the way my first teacher made a documentary about his trip called Kung Fu Pilgrimage.  It was about 1983.  It may only have been released in Australia, however.


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## Skippy

Yes, I imagine there are.


As some have already stated here the actual monks do not perform in shows or have interest in opening schools. They are more focused on their Chan, Buddhist practice. Their kung fu, wushu, martial arts whatever you choose to call it takes a back seat to religious practice. Heres a hint & a good way to know if you have an authentic monk in front of you. If the monk is involved in a show production, you know sitting on the ground bouncing around doing the good old kung fu break dance routine while twirling around a whip chain, chances are he's not a monk:uhyeah:


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## Mider1985

Has anyone heard of Dr Yawn Ming......He's not a monk im guessing cause he has kids. But i think he teaches traditional Shaolin or Chinese arts. He runs YMAA


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## Skippy

Mider1985 said:


> Has anyone heard of Dr Yawn Ming......He's not a monk im guessing cause he has kids. But i think he teaches traditional Shaolin or Chinese arts. He runs YMAA


 

Yes I've heard of him. He's been around for a long time.%-}


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## mograph

Mider1985 said:


> Has anyone heard of Dr Yawn Ming......He's not a monk im guessing cause he has kids. But i think he teaches traditional Shaolin or Chinese arts. He runs YMAA



Yang Jwing-Ming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jwing-Ming_Yang


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## Mider1985

mograph said:


> Yang Jwing-Ming?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jwing-Ming_Yang


 
Yeah thats the Gentlemen


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## bowser666

Well yeah it is sad what has happened to the Temple but what lots of people are forgetting is that even though what may have happened at the Shao Lin Temple did. It doesn't mean that Shao Lin is dead. Read your history people. Many monks left during various times of cultural instability and moved to many different parts of the pacific Rim. Taiwan, Indonesia, Malaysia, New Guinea etc....  They took Shao Lin with them in their training. Shao Lin isn't dead, its just dispersed throughout a large area. 


For example , the school I train at (Chang Chuan and Wu Xing Chuan) our lineage comes from Taiwan, and then back to Nanking Kuo Shu Institute, with links to Chin Woo as well. Those schools were made up up teachers who learned from Shao Lin etc.......  Recheck history people before you are quick to dismiss Shao Lin as dead and gone. Yeah they suffered some serious blows and have irreparable damage but its not gone, and new generations will contribute back to make Shao Lin even stronger.


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## Mider1985

Dr Yawn Ming who runs the YMAA is not a monk but he comes REALLYYYYYYYYYYY close.


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## Xue Sheng

I don't think Dr Yang is close to a Shaolin Monk since a big part of original Shaolin was a deep Buddhist practice.

We tend to forget that a Shaolin Monk of the past was a Buddhist Monk first and a Martial Artist second.


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## Mider1985

Xue Sheng said:


> I don't think Dr Yang is close to a Shaolin Monk since a big part of original Shaolin was a deep Buddhist practice.
> 
> We tend to forget that a Shaolin Monk of the past was a Buddhist Monk first and a Martial Artist second.


 
I said close not perfect. And how do you know he isnt buddhist?


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## Xue Sheng

Mider1985 said:


> I said close not perfect. And how do you know he isnt buddhist?


 
He is one of the people I have trained with over the years and he may or may not be Buddhist, I never asked him and he never said anything about it, but even if he is he is most certainly not a Shaolin Monk. He is from Taiwan and he did not learn his MA from Shaolin or from a Shaolin Monk. 

He does however teach Shaolin Kung Fu, as do many people who are not from the Shaolin Monastery or associated with it in any way. Dr Yang also teaches Ynag style Taijiquan and he is not a Taoist priest either nor is he a member of the Yang Taijiquan family. He also teaches Qinna, Qigong, and White Crane. 

My mother-in-law is a devout Buddhist and mainland Chinese and she is not a Shaolin Monk either


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## oxy

Xue Sheng said:


> My mother-in-law is a devout Buddhist and mainland Chinese and she is not a Shaolin Monk either
> 
> [/FONT][/COLOR]



But can she kick your ****?


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## Mider1985

Xue Sheng said:


> He is one of the people I have trained with over the years and he may or may not be Buddhist, I never asked him and he never said anything about it, but even if he is he is most certainly not a Shaolin Monk. He is from Taiwan and he did not learn his MA from Shaolin or from a Shaolin Monk.
> 
> He does however teach Shaolin Kung Fu, as do many people who are not from the Shaolin Monastery or associated with it in any way. Dr Yang also teaches Ynag style Taijiquan and he is not a Taoist priest either nor is he a member of the Yang Taijiquan family. He also teaches Qinna, Qigong, and White Crane.
> 
> My mother-in-law is a devout Buddhist and mainland Chinese and she is not a Shaolin Monk either


 
Ok so does he teach proper shaolin arts or are you saying he's teaching a watereddown version?


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## Tensei85

I think were kind of forgetting there is thin line & not very distinguishable between what is Shaolin & what is not. During the years of Shaolin before during & even after it was destroyed, rebuilt etc... Shaolin was always an ecclectic blend of things Shaolin & things from outside sources. 

Look for example during the time of Wang Lang he was a Shaolin Monk, he ended up bringing in 17 other systems to complete his Tong Long Pai & Shaolin 7 Star Praying Mantis is definitely a Shaolin system. (Take note the wording of Shaolin in 7 Star Praying Mantis, lol just kidding but truthfully)

Shaolin was a melting pot so its really hard to distinguish what is & what is not Shaolin, & now adays what is & what is not Shaolin Contemporary Wushu. 

The Last of Warrior Monks died out in early to mid 80's so it became hard to varify things after that time period as most Chinese systems always used oral histories as opposed to written histories so in that case even the Quan Pu may or may not be very accurate for dates, time periods, legends etc...

But I will say it would seem intelligent to assume that most of the "real" Shaolin monks/arts would in fact have went to Taiwan, as loyalists of the Ming royal family would have went to Taiwan with the rest of the family during the Qing dynasty's 1st years. 

So for example Tai Zu Chang Quan (Tai Jo Cheung Kuen) was invented by Tai Zu "Emperor" so is in fact not Shaolin by the means of invention but however do to his connnection with Shaolin it now is, & was also incorporated into Northern Mantis at Shaolin during the 1600's. 

So I think the old saying applies to this "Everything under the Sun is Shaolin".


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## Tensei85

Mider1985 said:


> Dr Yawn Ming who runs the YMAA is not a monk but he comes REALLYYYYYYYYYYY close.


 
I would say who cares if he's a monk or not, can he beat the crap out of you (probably), does he have countless information, skills to offer (definitely) thats what counts. 

Its not like saying your a monk means anything anyways, I "Bai Shi" as a Buddhist but I'm definitely not a Shaolin Monk, I study Shaolin Gong Fu but I'm still definitely not a Shaolin Monk. 

You have to remember there are countless sects of Buddhism and only one is Shaolin.


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## Mider1985

Each dvd mostly shows Wing Lam training using diffrent weapons so is it just washu or shaolin arts?

http://www.wle.com/store/wlv_hunggar_dvd.html


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## Xue Sheng

Mider1985 said:


> Ok so does he teach proper shaolin arts or are you saying he's teaching a watereddown version?


 
Define proper Shaolin.

Does he teach the same Shaolin that you could get out of old traditional Shaolin Monastery? No

But that does not mean watered down. Just because it is labeled Shaolin does not mean it is directly from or the same as the Shaolin Monastery. There is a guy near me that teaches Shaolin too (Northern Shaolin) and it is not watered down and it is not from the Shaolin Monastery. It is from Chin Woo and although I do not know Dr Yang's Shaolin Lineage he is also teaching Northern Shaolin.

You are getting the Shaolin monks mixed up with styles called Shaolin. There are various versions that likely have their source from Shaolin a hundred or so years ago but it is not the same as it as.

I've done Tuishou with Dr Yang and regardless of where his Shaolin comes from I can tell you from painful experience his Qinna is VERY good.


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## Xue Sheng

Mider1985 said:


> Each dvd mostly shows Wing Lam training using diffrent weapons so is it just washu or shaolin arts?
> 
> http://www.wle.com/store/wlv_hunggar_dvd.html


 

That is Hung Gar


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## Wondering Spirit

I will try not to (snake)-step on anyones toes, but here goes:

During my trips to mainland China, I've experienced lots of monasteries, both taoist and buddhist.
What one tends to forget is that not all monks become monks to gain insight and enlightenment. Many people (from my experience) become monks in order to have a place to live, food to eat, and a "job".
Also, lots of people are monks for a time and then leave again to become "normal" citizens.

Why not think of the "wushu"-monks as a possible salvation of the arts - albeit somewhat athletic and circusy - BUT they live in monasteries, train hard all day long, and (to the best of my knowledge) are buddhist. 
Do anyone of you know that they are "bad" buddhists?


Also: What's orange and bald??


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## Xue Sheng

Wondering Spirit said:


> I will try not to (snake)-step on anyones toes, but here goes:
> 
> During my trips to mainland China, I've experienced lots of monasteries, both taoist and buddhist.
> What one tends to forget is that not all monks become monks to gain insight and enlightenment. Many people (from my experience) become monks in order to have a place to live, food to eat, and a "job".
> Also, lots of people are monks for a time and then leave again to become "normal" citizens.
> 
> Why not think of the "wushu"-monks as a possible salvation of the arts - albeit somewhat athletic and circusy - BUT they live in monasteries, train hard all day long, and (to the best of my knowledge) are buddhist.
> Do anyone of you know that they are "bad" buddhists?
> 
> 
> Also: What's orange and bald??


 
OUCH!!! My toes 

Of course they are bad Buddists...they're allowed to eat meat 

I did not get to Shaolin but I got to a Buddhist Monastery and a Taoist and they were pretty cool. And although the Buddhist Monastery I got to was not Shaolin I did watch one of the Monks doing Kung Fu, not sure which style, although I am not sure if he knew I was watching. He was in a walled area lower on the mountain and I was in a walled area higher on the mountain. But there were good Buddhists


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## Azzy

Xue Sheng said:


> Of course they are bad Buddists...they're allowed to eat meat



I may be wrong on this. But most of the sources I have read mention two distinct classes of monk. The warrior monk and the temple monk.
And the warrior monks seam to be allowed to have children and eat meat.

(Excerpt from Chan Buddhism website)
"This is where Shaolin tradition differs. There is a type of monastic who is not fully ordained. The warrior monks are unique to Shaolin and only take five lay precepts (no killing, no stealing, no sexual misconduct, no wrong speech, no intoxicants). However, there are exceptions. While on temple grounds they observe ten precepts, with the precept of no sexual misconduct upgraded to full celibacy.

The warrior monks in Shaolin tradition are considered monastics because they often live and practice in the temple. They differ from the secular disciples (Chin.: súji&#257;dìz&#464; &#20439;&#23478;&#24351;&#23376 who live at home. Warrior monks are like secular disciples who have "left home" (Chin.: ch&#363;ji&#257;dìz&#464; &#20986;&#23478;&#24351;&#23376. The level of their precepts makes them secular, but their position in the temple makes them monastic. This is unique to Shaolin, hence the common confusion. In other traditions they are seen as secular Buddhist gongfu masters who are trained under the guidance of fully ordained monks.

This is often times unknown to many which creates controversy. The most common accusations are of the warrior monks breaking precepts such as of not eating meat. However, this precept is found in the Bodhisattva Precepts which is a choice for laity. Warrior monks do not necessarily take them. Furthermore, the Pratimoksha Precepts are those which make one fully ordained, and when broken have more strict punishments depending on the degree. Meat eating, however, is not found within this set of precepts, and therefore would not result in expulsion. Regardless, for one who has not taken such a precept of vegetarianism, there can be no punishment."


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## Xue Sheng

I beleive it was emperor Taizong of the Tang Dynasty that got them eating meat as a kind of thanks for the help


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## Jin Gang

For answers, or at least insights, into a lot of the questions and legends regarding the shaolin temple throughout history, check out "The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts" by Meir Shahar, it recently came out in paperback.  I got it for Christmas from my wife, and it presents some very enlightening facts about shaolin's history and some of the legends regarding martial arts practice there.  There's too much to go into in a single post, but suffice to say it convincingly dispells some of the myths that have been handed down about shaolin and shaolin martial arts over the years.  It's not a book about martial arts styles or techniques specifically, but the history of the temple and Buddhist warrior monks in general.  
   There are traditional (non-acrobatic/performance) martial arts being taught in and around the shaolin temple today.  The forms may not have been preserved in the temple uninterrupted, but after it was reopened by the government in the 1980's, they brought in martial artists who knew the styles that were traditionally practiced in the areas around the temple.  The shaolin temple was shut down or destroyed several times throughout its history, so this probably isn't the first time that happened.


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## rickster

Are there ANY genuine Shaolin monks?

Define "real"

Can anything be so commercialized and exploited beyond its true form and intention truly be real?

For example, look at the Japanese sword.

Most are made in this era using so many modern methods, is it real?

Do we use the term "real" as seeing and touching?

Or shall we substitute "real" with "authentic"?


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