# MartialTalk and the COVID-19 Pandemic



## MT Admin Team

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

These are definitely tense, trying and challenging times, and participating in forums like Martial Talk is certainly a good way to stay connected to other people as well as share information with each other. However, in order to keep things friendly and make sure that this stays a place that we can relax, we have to remember the rules.

It's certainly difficult to discuss responses to the corona virus outbreak without discussing governments, as they are naturally the center of so much of the response. However, we can discuss the government response without getting into the politics of which party or which government is best. We all have the governments we've got; this isn't the time to argue about what might be or might have been. It makes as much sense as worrying about what color lifeboat is offered you when the ship is sinking... And when we discuss the government figures, let's avoid dismissive or insulting nicknames.

Treat each other with courtesy and respect. Everyone is under a lot of pressure, everyone is facing an unprecedented crisis, learning new ways to work and practice and train, so let's not add to the stress. Support each other; be the community we've seen this board be in the past. In the immortal words of Bill & Ted... "Be excellent to each other!"


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## Xue Sheng

I don't know if I can respond to this as I type, but I was on another web forum this morning and it was deep into a political argument that, at this time, living in NYS, got me very angry and I responded. I can hopefully post a slightly less angry

This is a pandemic can't we just put the bipartisan politics aside and start trying to work together to do what we can to beat this thing.

I follow what healthcare professionals say and to be honest, I don't care, or ask, if they are a democrat or a republican, it simply does not matter

Now carry on with the petty, pathetic, political arguments that helps nothing while a virus, that does not seem to care what your political affiliation is, kills people...republicans, democrats and other alike....


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## JowGaWolf

Xue Sheng said:


> I follow what healthcare professionals say


This has been day one for me.  If I want to learn about cars then I go to someone who works on cars or study cars.   If I want to learn about health then I want to go to someone who works in health related areas and or study in these areas.  By study I mean research and learn and not someone who is taking 8th grade health classes.

The only way politics comes into question is if its getting in the way, and the answer to that is that it clearly is.  So I keep my focus on where it needs to be and that's on the people who really know about viruses and what needs to happen.  It's no different from me listening to my own doctor vs a politician.  

Based on the data I've seen it looks like this one is going to be one of those lessons the U.S. will have to learn the hard way.   Until then then I'm going to follow what the professionals say and explain.  A lot of these people have passion about this stuff the same way that some of us have passion about martial arts.  Anyone else not agreeing with what the professionals are saying, will be ignored.  The Chinese doctor tried to sound the alarm.  He was silenced.  And that's not just a Chinese politics thing.  That politics in general.  So yeah.  I'm definitely with the professional on this one.  

Real simple.   Who do I listen to when I'm sick?  The doctor or a politician.  Maybe people function the other way around?


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## Buka

This look like a lesson the entire world will have to learn the hard way.


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## ernests

Based on the data I've seen it looks like this one is going to be one of those lessons the U.S. will have to learn the hard way. Until then then I'm going to follow what the professionals say and explain. A lot of these people have passion about this stuff the same way that some of us have passion about martial arts.


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## Bruce7

Now the election is over. I hope covid will not be political and professionals will have a bigger voice. I hope fox will tell my neighbor a very good person covid is not a hoax. Only then will my neighbor believe covid is real and dangerous. life is more important than politics or ratings.


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## Steve

Some good news on the COVID 19 front:  

Pfizer says COVID-19 vaccine is looking 90% effective

A lot of reason to be optimistic, but we're not out of the woods yet.  With competent leadership, I think we may actually get back to something close to normal this year.  Fingers crossed, because frankly, I'd like to go to Disney World in 2021 with my family.  

President Elect Biden has also announced his Covid transition team, which appears to include some top notch talent:

Biden Names 13 Health Experts To COVID-19 Transition Advisory Board


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## jobo

well were back in lock down, apparently, i didnt know, no one told me, , since friday, it seems, it was only when i went for a coffee  today and there were no outside tsbles that i found out


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## jobo

Steve said:


> Some good news on the COVID 19 front:
> 
> Pfizer says COVID-19 vaccine is looking 90% effective
> 
> A lot of reason to be optimistic, but we're not out of the woods yet.  With competent leadership, I think we may actually get back to something close to normal this year.  Fingers crossed, because frankly, I'd like to go to Disney World in 2021 with my family.
> 
> President Elect Biden has also announced his Covid transition team, which appears to include some top notch talent:
> 
> Biden Names 13 Health Experts To COVID-19 Transition Advisory Board


well il bet you a pound

that the top botch talent achieves nothing but plunging you in to an economic depression 

disney are on the brink of goibg broke, so i wouldnt hold my breath


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## Steve

jobo said:


> well il bet you a pound
> 
> that the top botch talent achieves nothing but plunging you in to an economic depression
> 
> disney are on the brink of goibg broke, so i wouldnt hold my breath


Says the guy who admits he didn't even know his country is in a lock down. Disney going broke... come on.  The parks aren't making a lot of money, but ABC, ESPN, History Channel, Lifetime network, FX, Marvel... Disney+.  They're doing fine.  

Regarding the economy, time will tell.  Let's put a pin in it, and talk about it again in a year.


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## jobo

Steve said:


> Says the guy who admits he didn't even know his country is in a lock down. Disney going broke... come on.  The parks aren't making a lot of money, but ABC, ESPN, History Channel, Lifetime network, FX, Marvel... Disney+.  They're doing fine.
> 
> Regarding the economy, time will tell.  Let's put a pin in it, and talk about it again in a year.


they go round changing the law and dont tell people, they just expect you to have a television, which i dont, they could have written to me or phoned me up perhaps

Disney are in the financial mire, they are sat on many 100s of millions of films they cant release/finish/start and the loss of park revenue, im not sure espn will off set that much

and then

there will be no cinemas left to show the films in

and i wouldnt get too carried away about the change of leader, there are some legal challenges about to happen


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Some good news on the COVID 19 front:
> 
> Pfizer says COVID-19 vaccine is looking 90% effective
> 
> A lot of reason to be optimistic, but we're not out of the woods yet.  With competent leadership, I think we may actually get back to something close to normal this year.  Fingers crossed, because frankly, I'd like to go to Disney World in 2021 with my family.
> 
> President Elect Biden has also announced his Covid transition team, which appears to include some top notch talent:
> 
> Biden Names 13 Health Experts To COVID-19 Transition Advisory Board


Isn't that convenient timing. Pfizer reported that the results "surprisingly" showed up on Sunday. Go figure. Delaying that kind of news should be illegal on a major scale.


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## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> Isn't that convenient timing. Pfizer reported that the results "surprisingly" showed up on Sunday. Go figure. Delaying that kind of news should be illegal on a major scale.



What you are suggesting may be true.
Pfizer was not part of the President's warp speed program and receive no government money.
Pfizer people were not friends of the President.

We should try to let the politics go and be happy Pfizer has given us a light at the end of the tunnel.


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## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> What you are suggesting may be true.
> Pfizer was not part of the President's warp speed program and receive no government money.
> Pfizer people were not friends of the President.
> 
> We should try to let the politics go and be happy Pfizer has given us a light at the end of the tunnel.


True and well said. Pfizer is not the only horse in the race though. A damn shame it took the results of a national election for them the release their findings.


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## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> Says the guy who admits he didn't even know his country is in a lock down. Disney going broke... come on.  The parks aren't making a lot of money, but ABC, ESPN, History Channel, Lifetime network, FX, Marvel... Disney+.  They're doing fine.
> 
> Regarding the economy, time will tell.  Let's put a pin in it, and talk about it again in a year.


Yeah Disney isn't going to go broke.  They bring way too much money into Florida.  If anything Disney will get a bail out or money to help it get through the hard times.   On top of that. It's like you stated.  They own too many companies to actually go broke.  Too many assets to keep it alive even during this time.  They are too big of a footprint on the Florida economy.  Hotels, Restaurants and small businesses benefit from all the people that travel to Florida to spend some time at Disney.  There's no way the government would let something that big go under.

A lot of companies are positioning themselves so they can make it through the pandemic and preparing to be ready for things to get bet better.  Same way  I'm hoping to take advantage of some lower rent on building space for a martial arts school.  Things are bad now and will get worse, but they won't always be bad, and that's what you have to be ready to jump on.


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## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> True and well said. Pfizer is not the only horse in the race though. A damn shame it took the results of a national election for them the release their findings.


From what I understand, they still have quite a ways to go before and they also have some problems that will affect the distribution of a vaccine.  It's 90% effective now but a bad side effect can change all of that in a second.  

The company even admits the way that things are now with the Vaccine , it's good news but not very practical.  They also haven't gathered enough data on it yet and have not determine what the long term risks are.  They don't even know how long the Vaccine will protect a person.  What I'm thinking is that this isn't the Vaccine that will actually be used.  My guess is that they will develop a 2.0 version.  What they have right now is more like a draft, with lots of kinks to be worked out and refined.


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## _Simon_

JowGaWolf said:


> From what I understand, they still have quite a ways to go before and they also have some problems that will affect the distribution of a vaccine.  It's 90% effective now but a bad side effect can change all of that in a second.
> 
> The company even admits the way that things are now with the Vaccine , it's good news but not very practical.  They also haven't gathered enough data on it yet and have not determine what the long term risks are.  They don't even know how long the Vaccine will protect a person.  What I'm thinking is that this isn't the Vaccine that will actually be used.  My guess is that they will develop a 2.0 version.  What they have right now is more like a draft, with lots of kinks to be worked out and refined.



Yeah that's what I wonder... how they can possibly have enough data to not only say that's it's safe with no side effects, but also how long it will work etc... I thought vaccines take much much longer to develop, let alone something like Covid-19 that's completely new with not everything known about it!

But apparently Australia has secured it and it will be rolled out in March next year. It certainly is great news but I don't know the general processes for developing a vaccine... I'm ignorant of how that all works... and yeah, hoping that it's not something that has been rushed due to the pressing need for it


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## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah Disney isn't going to go broke.  They bring way too much money into Florida.  If anything Disney will get a bail out or money to help it get through the hard times.   On top of that. It's like you stated.  They own too many companies to actually go broke.  Too many assets to keep it alive even during this time.  They are too big of a footprint on the Florida economy.  Hotels, Restaurants and small businesses benefit from all the people that travel to Florida to spend some time at Disney.  There's no way the government would let something that big go under.
> 
> A lot of companies are positioning themselves so they can make it through the pandemic and preparing to be ready for things to get bet better.  Same way  I'm hoping to take advantage of some lower rent on building space for a martial arts school.  Things are bad now and will get worse, but they won't always be bad, and that's what you have to be ready to jump on.


to big to fail, is a phrase oft used just before some thing fails,

being dependent on lesure and tourism is a bad buisness model at the moment, and thats before the ecomic hit, that unemployed people have a lot less to spend than employed people on lesure and tourism,  its called a recession, its not like they can sell things running at a masive loss to other lesure and tourism companies,  who also dont have much money, though they pissibly arnt bleeding money at the rate disney is, as they are not as big,
.netflicks and amazon are doibg well, put your money in them and in property and gold, its always the same, tgough obviously not property thats dependent on the lesure and tourism industry


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## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's what I wonder... how they can possibly have enough data to not only say that's it's safe with no side effects, but also how long it will work etc... I thought vaccines take much much longer to develop, let alone something like Covid-19 that's completely new with not everything known about it!
> 
> But apparently Australia has secured it and it will be rolled out in March next year. It certainly is great news but I don't know the general processes for developing a vaccine... I'm ignorant of how that all works... and yeah, hoping that it's not something that has been rushed due to the pressing need for it


they generally take years to perf3ct and longer to adequatly test as safe,

so yes, " rushed "is a good adjective

if thats mrans it doesnt work very well and or has serioses side effects is another

drug companies are famous , for gaming their studies to show the priduct in the best light, hence why govenment scrutiny is necersary,  which isnt going to happen.

there is clearly billions to be made by beibg first, ,, if that has flvoured their reseach is a matter that only time will tell.

not forgetting that drug companirs in america are immune to civil action,for vaccines  that make peopke ill

im certainly not going to be first in the queue, let them test it on a few million other people firsts


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## Steve

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that's what I wonder... how they can possibly have enough data to not only say that's it's safe with no side effects, but also how long it will work etc... I thought vaccines take much much longer to develop, let alone something like Covid-19 that's completely new with not everything known about it!
> 
> But apparently Australia has secured it and it will be rolled out in March next year. It certainly is great news but I don't know the general processes for developing a vaccine... I'm ignorant of how that all works... and yeah, hoping that it's not something that has been rushed due to the pressing need for it


Still a lot of questions.  But promising news, and I'm glad to see actual experts leading our US efforts.


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## jobo

Steve said:


> Still a lot of questions.  But promising news, and I'm glad to see actual experts leading our US efforts.


hmm, WHOhave set up a sceme to distrubute the vacine fairly, the tarket at the moment to to inoculate 3% of the global population in an unspecified time frame, but as that is1000 of milkions of doeses, a fairly long time id sugest.

america of course hasnt signed up to this, and may well hog the vacine , inxreasing the unspecified time period still further,

mean while our orime minister, has declared that he doesnt bekive a word those american big pharma say and he is having it indepenly trail and tested in the uk, not in so many words, but that the gist. so even if its good, its far from the solution

at leat by the time its available the states will have tested, so the rest of the wolds population isnt out at unnecessary risk, go america,,,

nb thise experts of your arnt in charge as yet


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## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> being dependent on lesure and tourism is a bad buisness model at the moment, and thats before the ecomic hit,


I agree.  Florida doesn't have income taxes because they are able to make up the taxed revenue through Tourism.  If Tourism is dead then the state doesn't get money.  I don't think businesses are "Too Big to Fail."   The size  of a business isn't important.   It's how intertwined the business is with other industries.  The tourism and hospitality injuries are connected to so many other things.  The larger the company is the more connections it has.   If Disney goes under then so will many small businesses who benefited from the numerous tourist that visit the state.  

So by letting certain Big Businesses fail you will also be destroying many smaller business as well.  Everything is connected.  Think of it like this. Let's look at biology. 

The Heart is too big to fail. It's not  that it's too big.  The problem is that so many other things are connected to it and depend on the heart.   If tourism tanks in Florida then everything that is dependent on Disney to attract visitors will also fail.  So it's not just Disney that fails.  Other people will fail as a result.  Because Florida doesn't have an income tax, Anyone who depends on Tourism to do good to pay for social programs, will also fail.  So you have to look at it that way.   If you think no one is affected by Disney closing then you have to be able to show that other businesses can survive without Disney.


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## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree.  Florida doesn't have income taxes because they are able to make up the taxed revenue through Tourism.  If Tourism is dead then the state doesn't get money.  I don't think businesses are "Too Big to Fail."   The size  of a business isn't important.   It's how intertwined the business is with other industries.  The tourism and hospitality injuries are connected to so many other things.  The larger the company is the more connections it has.   If Disney goes under then so will many small businesses who benefited from the numerous tourist that visit the state.
> 
> So by letting certain Big Businesses fail you will also be destroying many smaller business as well.  Everything is connected.  Think of it like this. Let's look at biology.
> 
> The Heart is too big to fail. It's not  that it's too big.  The problem is that so many other things are connected to it and depend on the heart.   If tourism tanks in Florida then everything that is dependent on Disney to attract visitors will also fail.  So it's not just Disney that fails.  Other people will fail as a result.  Because Florida doesn't have an income tax, Anyone who depends on Tourism to do good to pay for social programs, will also fail.  So you have to look at it that way.   If you think no one is affected by Disney closing then you have to be able to show that other businesses can survive without Disney.


thats how recesions work, one bursness goes under and takes the whole supply chain with it

i dont understand the politics of state suvsidies in america, will they piur countless billions in to a private company to keep it afloat? what about all the other lesure and tourism companies, will they be bailed out as well

what about retail companies and car  makers, they are all goibgcto go down the tubes , the whole country is goibg broke,  where they get the money to bail out them all, ?


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## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> i dont understand the politics of state suvsidies in america, will they piur countless billions in to a private company to keep it afloat? what about all the other lesure and tourism companies, will they be bailed out as well


This is the growing issue now.  People know that large companies got a bail out.  Not all of them but enough of them,  So now people are asking "What about about us?  When do the little guys get their bail out."



jobo said:


> where they get the money to bail out them all, ?


Government Credit card,

I'll be happy once all of the lying and anti-science, and conspiracy movements finally stop.  Accurate information is vital to solving any problem or overcoming any challenge.


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## Steve

Some great points shared, and some of it is really just a matter of opinion and a reflection of priorities.  I'm sure I disagree with some of you and agree with others on these matters, because @jobo, as you and I agreed a while back, the strategy of shut downs etc is debatable.  And on a tactical level, even if we agree that shut downs are a good idea, can be debatable.  What to shut down, when to shut down, for how long, and with what exceptions.  All really important discussions and with a lot of room for valid debate.

But at some point, someone needs to make a decision.  We need leaders to pick a strategy and to provide guidelines to lower level government (whether that's the States, Counties, Cities... whatever) to help them make the tactical decisions, and to help citizens understand the plan and why it's important.  What I'm most excited about now is that it appears that, first, we have that leadership.  President-elect Biden has already taken steps to create his transition team.  Second, it appears that the strategy will be informed by experts and not sycophants.  Trump nor Biden are experts in this area.  But our next president has appointed some actual experts in the area.  Third, we need to provide support to the front lines on this.  Funding, PPE and other resources and supplies.   Listening to the news just this morning, hospitals are already feeling the effects of this latest surge.

And then, lastly, I am hopeful (and maybe even optimistic) that we will have an administration that's serious, who, after this is all over, analyze what worked and didn't work, and put some things into place so that we're better prepared next time.  I'm optimistic, because that's exactly what the last administration did.  Had our current administration not systematically undone all of that work, we may very well not be in the mess we're in now.


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## Steve

Related to my points above, a case in point: Chelsea Clinton today tweeted the following:


 
https://twitter.com/ChelseaClinton/status/1326890968868589570

And what followed in the comments and responses was a debate about whether that's actually a good idea, whether the USA is similar enough to Germany that it might work, and a lot of respectful disagreement between what appear to be mostly left leaning people. 

Point being, there is a lot of room here for reasonable disagreement and differences of opinion.  But as with everything, you can't just stand around wringing your hands, paralyzed with indecision (which has been the USA's official policy for the better part of a year now).  You have to make a decision, develop a plan, and then be agile enough to adjust based on new information as it becomes available.


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## jobo

Steve said:


> Related to my points above, a case in point: Chelsea Clinton today tweeted the following:
> 
> View attachment 23297
> https://twitter.com/ChelseaClinton/status/1326890968868589570
> 
> And what followed in the comments and responses was a debate about whether that's actually a good idea, whether the USA is similar enough to Germany that it might work, and a lot of respectful disagreement between what appear to be mostly left leaning people.
> 
> Point being, there is a lot of room here for reasonable disagreement and differences of opinion.  But as with everything, you can't just stand around wringing your hands, paralyzed with indecision (which has been the USA's official policy for the better part of a year now).  You have to make a decision, develop a plan, and then be agile enough to adjust based on new information as it becomes available.


but ANY PLAN is not better than no plan, as there are any number of ways to make the situation worse. as the uk govenment continues to demonstrate

reasonable debate on twitter  is definetly not a good base for a plan, i mean is Chelsea on the adviser team?


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## Steve

jobo said:


> but ANY PLAN is not better than no plan, as there are any number of ways to make the situation worse. as the uk govenment continues to demonstrate
> 
> reasonable debate on twitter  is definetly not a good base for a plan, i mean is Chelsea on the adviser team?


I think you missed my point, my friend.


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## jobo

Steve said:


> I think you missed my point, my friend.


no i think i summed it up pretty well, the new guy has a plan so you think all will be well, as iron mike said" everybody has a plan till....... "


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## Bruce7

Until the leadership makes covid our nation's one number priority, millions of Americans will not believe how dangerous covid is and will therefore endanger us all.


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## Bruce7

The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
How do we keep it from becoming political, 
When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up. 
The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
Politics is killing people our people.


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## JowGaWolf

Bruce7 said:


> The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
> How do we keep it from becoming political,
> When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
> The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
> Politics is killing people our people.


This is simple.  When the deaths have touches the lives of those who don't believe, either directly or indirectly.  I heard a nurse today cry as she said 4 refrigerator trucks drove up because they knew that's how many people would die this week.

I don't know if this will give you hope, but Georgia used to be one of those places where I could see people not wearing a masks. A lot of times, I would see Hispanics not wearing the masks.  I haven't been to the store in a long time, but today.  I could tell tell the message and reality is sinking in.  Before it was easy to see people without masks.  Now I have to look really hard to see someone without a mask.   I went to 2 different stores.  An international super market where I saw everyone where a mask, and a hardware store where I saw only 2 people not wearing masks.  Both were black males who seem to be fit, so my only guess is that they think it wasn't going to affect them as much if they got it.

There is no way the BS can survive, when we are almost getting 200,000 cases of Covid every day.  Eventually people are going to hit that wall of reality and politics won't matter anymore.  The biggest danger at the moment are those who think "herd immunity" is the answer.  If everyone gets sick all at once then there's no one for the virus to infect.  The problem is that "herd immunity " doesn't work that way, which is why farmers will kill off live stocks by the hundreds and thousands as a way to address certain disease out breaks. The only thing accomplished by everyone getting sick is that people will die and some will have long lasting effects.  Things are always different "when it happens to  YOU."  Things will get change for the better when some of these knuckle heads join the " It happened to ME" group. 

Just keep being safe and protecting yourself.  Wear a mask. Don't touch your face when you are out, always have hand sanitizer on hand.  Sanitize your hand before you grab the inside of your car. I put sanitizer on wipe the bottle with my wet hands then spray some more on and wipe my hands.  If I touch something in my car before cleaning my hands then I'll wipe where I touch.  I don't touch my face or rub my eyes when I'm out.  I'm a person who had a habit of touching my face, so I broke myself out of that habit.


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## JowGaWolf

I remember in the original Covid -19 thread that someone thought that a vaccine would be ready in 3 months.  That was back in May I think.  This stuff is serious.  Oh and news break.  Covid-19 has mutated again.  It is more infectious now than it was before.  If I had to guess, it mutated because more younger people were getting it.  The virus was having a difficult time multiplying with the younger age group.  Viruses only care about reproducing so it makes sense that it would adapt in a way that would make it more infectious.  The more people that get sick the more changes it will have to mutate.  Everything in life works that way.  Organisms adapt to their environment.  If life can be found in boiling water next to lava vents, then it should be no surprise that viruses would try to adapt as well.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> I remember in the original Covid -19 thread that someone thought that a vaccine would be ready in 3 months.  That was back in May I think.  This stuff is serious.  Oh and news break.  Covid-19 has mutated again.  It is more infectious now than it was before.  If I had to guess, it mutated because more younger people were getting it.  The virus was having a difficult time multiplying with the younger age group.  Viruses only care about reproducing so it makes sense that it would adapt in a way that would make it more infectious.  The more people that get sick the more changes it will have to mutate.  Everything in life works that way.  Organisms adapt to their environment.  If life can be found in boiling water next to lava vents, then it should be no surprise that viruses would try to adapt as well.


I'm less optimistic at this point that people will take it seriously. And I just checked the initial thread..on March 7th, the claim was made that a vaccine would be found within 4 weeks or sooner, and others expressed agreement to that. When you stated you would not trust a vaccine that quickly, that was called pessimistic, and you were assumed to have not read about the virus. 

The thread in general is interesting to read. There's another poster in it claiming, again in march, that the virus was media hype and not an epidemic since at that time, it had only killed 20 people, unlike h1n1 which had killed 12,000 over the course of it's spread. Hindsight is 20/20.

Edit: I didn't include names in that, and am not considering anyone wrong for not taking it as seriously before it spread here. I'm included in those people, although by the third week of march I had changed my tune (not sure if I would have so quickly had I not been working in a hospital that got hit hard early).


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## Michele123

I haven’t been in here since COVID hit. Hubby & I had suspected COVID right at the start of community spread in our area. It was weird being so weak for so long while our four kids only had mild cold symptoms. Still, the lockdowns were way worse. By the end of them I was asking why I couldn’t have been one of the COVID deaths rather then suffer such a long lasting isolation and see so many small business owners driven to poverty. Now I look around at all the various countries and various approaches to COVID. Everyone is experiencing a surge. I suspect there truly isn’t much that can be done. Anything we do is like trying to keep a hurricane from its path. It sucks but it’s nature taking it’s course and in the end I fear our trying to control it will have caused much greater suffering and death than just working on eating healthy, exercising, and getting that social need met (which actually boosts the immune system).  I don’t think anyone or anything will stop it. It will have to burn itself out just the way the Spanish Flu did. 

(Yes I wear a mask and have since long before they were mandated. I don’t think it does any good besides make other people feel better and that’s why I do)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I haven’t been in here since COVID hit. Hubby & I had suspected COVID right at the start of community spread in our area. It was weird being so weak for so long while our four kids only had mild cold symptoms. Still, the lockdowns were way worse. By the end of them I was asking why I couldn’t have been one of the COVID deaths rather then suffer such a long lasting isolation and see so many small business owners driven to poverty. Now I look around at all the various countries and various approaches to COVID. Everyone is experiencing a surge. I suspect there truly isn’t much that can be done. Anything we do is like trying to keep a hurricane from its path. It sucks but it’s nature taking it’s course and in the end I fear our trying to control it will have caused much greater suffering and death than just working on eating healthy, exercising, and getting that social need met (which actually boosts the immune system).  I don’t think anyone or anything will stop it. It will have to burn itself out just the way the Spanish Flu did.
> 
> (Yes I wear a mask and have since long before they were mandated. I don’t think it does any good besides make other people feel better and that’s why I do)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Great to hear from you Michele123 has been awhile. Whilst I don't agree with some points, I do see where you're coming from. There are pros and cons no matter which approach we take.

I'm very very glad you and your family have recovered and hoping you continue to be okay


----------



## _Simon_

I'm so very sorry you guys in the US are struggling bigtime, hang in there and stay safe.

We just came out our second wave very recently (just in our little state, the rest of Australia were mostly okay). We went from increasing new cases (highest of 725 new cases in a day and many deaths relatively speaking), to absolutely zero new cases and zero deaths for the last 16 days straight. We went through pretty hard lockdown (and many people were not happy about it) and mandatory mask wearing when outside your home, and numbers dropped dramatically.

I really want to say 'if we can do it, you can too', but it may sound a bit cliche and generic. I'm hoping you guys can get there. It truly is a massive group effort, but it's the little things we each do on a daily basis that helps.

Thinking of you all; use everything you've learned in MA training to combat this.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
> How do we keep it from becoming political,
> When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
> The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
> Politics is killing people our people.





Bruce7 said:


> The election is over. Covid should not be political now, all Americans should want to do what ever it takes to keep us safe.
> How do we keep it from becoming political,
> When people of El Paso are dying so fast the refrigerator trucks can not keep up.
> The judge is not allowed to shut down restaurants.
> Politics is killing people our people.


thats a completly meaning less stastic, as it tottally dependent on how many tefrigetated trucks they have 

people can always choose not to go to restaurants,  as they can generally choose not to do most things


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> This is simple.  When the deaths have touches the lives of those who don't believe, either directly or indirectly.  I heard a nurse today cry as she said 4 refrigerator trucks drove up because they knew that's how many people would die this week.
> 
> I don't know if this will give you hope, but Georgia used to be one of those places where I could see people not wearing a masks. A lot of times, I would see Hispanics not wearing the masks.  I haven't been to the store in a long time, but today.  I could tell tell the message and reality is sinking in.  Before it was easy to see people without masks.  Now I have to look really hard to see someone without a mask.   I went to 2 different stores.  An international super market where I saw everyone where a mask, and a hardware store where I saw only 2 people not wearing masks.  Both were black males who seem to be fit, so my only guess is that they think it wasn't going to affect them as much if they got it.
> 
> There is no way the BS can survive, when we are almost getting 200,000 cases of Covid every day.  Eventually people are going to hit that wall of reality and politics won't matter anymore.  The biggest danger at the moment are those who think "herd immunity" is the answer.  If everyone gets sick all at once then there's no one for the virus to infect.  The problem is that "herd immunity " doesn't work that way, which is why farmers will kill off live stocks by the hundreds and thousands as a way to address certain disease out breaks. The only thing accomplished by everyone getting sick is that people will die and some will have long lasting effects.  Things are always different "when it happens to  YOU."  Things will get change for the better when some of these knuckle heads join the " It happened to ME" group.
> 
> Just keep being safe and protecting yourself.  Wear a mask. Don't touch your face when you are out, always have hand sanitizer on hand.  Sanitize your hand before you grab the inside of your car. I put sanitizer on wipe the bottle with my wet hands then spray some more on and wipe my hands.  If I touch something in my car before cleaning my hands then I'll wipe where I touch.  I don't touch my face or rub my eyes when I'm out.  I'm a person who had a habit of touching my face, so I broke myself out of that habit.


herd inubity will eventually be the answer, as there is nothing else that will stop it, except a vacine whicj is herd imunity by another means,  

this is the truth that all the exspwrts know, but they are rekuctant to state publicly for fear of the pokitical fall out


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Edit: I didn't include names in that, and am not considering anyone wrong for not taking it as seriously before it spread here. I'm included in those people, although by the third week of march I had changed my tune (not sure if I would have so quickly had I not been working in a hospital that got hit hard early).


I look at it as a lesson to be learned so that it doesn't happen in the future the same way. Hopefully they will share stories with other how the thinking was, how bad, it got, and to give some thing insight on what could have been done to improve the situation.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Michele123 said:


> Now I look around at all the various countries and various approaches to COVID. Everyone is experiencing a surge. I suspect there truly isn’t much that can be done.


Everyone is experiencing a surge.  It was expected. A surge is the natural path of such things which is why they wanted to try to get it under control as soon as possible.  There are people who study this thing all the time.  They are completely absorbed the pandemics and viruses and are aware that pandemics run through reliable stages.

But everyone has to be on the same page when addressing it.

Masks help. The problem is that there are other ways you can be infected. This has always been known for any virus.  Any area that has mucus or entry into your body becomes a point in which a person can be infected. Wearing a mask only restricts entry through the mouth and nose.  It does not stop infection though the eyes and through secondary contamination like sticking putting contaminated fingers and hands on or in your mouth, nose, or eyes.  People who catch colds and the flu even though they haven't been around anyone sick are most likely getting sick through these methods and not getting sick through breathing the virus in.

Kids in general get sick first for this very same reason.  They are dirty, they pick their nose, put their fingers in their mouth and don't wash their hands.  When my son was a kid, he would always get sick first, then my wife, who always hugged him, and then I would get it from her.  That was the season expectation for all colds and illnesses in the house.


----------



## JowGaWolf

_Simon_ said:


> I'm so very sorry you guys in the US are struggling bigtime, hang in there and stay safe.
> 
> We just came out our second wave very recently (just in our little state, the rest of Australia were mostly okay). We went from increasing new cases (highest of 725 new cases in a day and many deaths relatively speaking), to absolutely zero new cases and zero deaths for the last 16 days straight. We went through pretty hard lockdown (and many people were not happy about it) and mandatory mask wearing when outside your home, and numbers dropped dramatically.
> 
> I really want to say 'if we can do it, you can too', but it may sound a bit cliche and generic. I'm hoping you guys can get there. It truly is a massive group effort, but it's the little things we each do on a daily basis that helps.
> 
> Thinking of you all; use everything you've learned in MA training to combat this.


We'll get through it once we get our act together.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> herd inubity will eventually be the answer, as there is nothing else that will stop it, except a vacine whicj is herd imunity by another means,
> 
> this is the truth that all the exspwrts know, but they are rekuctant to state publicly for fear of the pokitical fall out


In the US, herd immunity is that you let everyone get sick, and the virus burns out because everyone is already sick with the virus.

1. The problem with that is that the more people the virus infects the more opportunities it has to mutate. So you may be immune to Strain A, but Strain B is new and you aren't immune to that.  This is what happens with the flu.

2. There is no other virus that we know of in the world, where we say the best way to deal with it is for everyone to get sick.  We don't do that with AIDS, We don't do that with Herpes. We don't do that with Hepatitis.  If this was an actual answer then we would have done that a long time ago.

Herd immunity from the perspective that enough of us gets vaccinated is a different story and it's not how the U.S. government leadership sees it.

I agree with the vaccination approach when they eventually get the vaccination correct meaning there is no long term harm caused by it.  The US. has been through that before where a vaccine cause a disease years later.  The professionals who make Vaccines say that it takes them a long time to get a vaccine correct so that's the information I'm going on, which is why I'm highly cautious of an emergency vaccine.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> people can always choose not to go to restaurants, as they can generally choose not to do most things


The US has proven that this is not the approach or thinking that you want to use.  The reason why the US is in the position that it's in, is because people chose to go to restaurants.  

The assumption that Human's do the write thing is naive.  If that was the case then we wouldn't need laws, and even with laws people still do the right thing.  Learn a lesson from what the US is going through who recently had 180,000+ new cases yesterday.  There is no need to even debate such a thing.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> In the US, herd immunity is that you let everyone get sick, and the virus burns out because everyone is already sick with the virus.
> 
> 1. The problem with that is that the more people the virus infects the more opportunities it has to mutate. So you may be immune to Strain A, but Strain B is new and you aren't immune to that.  This is what happens with the flu.
> 
> 2. There is no other virus that we know of in the world, where we say the best way to deal with it is for everyone to get sick.  We don't do that with AIDS, We don't do that with Herpes. We don't do that with Hepatitis.  If this was an actual answer then we would have done that a long time ago.
> 
> Herd immunity from the perspective that enough of us gets vaccinated is a different story and it's not how the U.S. government leadership sees it.
> 
> I agree with the vaccination approach when they eventually get the vaccination correct meaning there is no long term harm caused by it.  The US. has been through that before where a vaccine cause a disease years later.  The professionals who make Vaccines say that it takes them a long time to get a vaccine correct so that's the information I'm going on, which is why I'm highly cautious of an emergency vaccine.


well rhats exaxtly how they controled measles mumps and chcken pox in this country before there was a vacine, kid got measles,  have a measle party and invit all the kids in the area psrticularly with mumps, as getting it later in life can make you sterile,  once youd had it you were set for life,

so its not that far fetched,

and sans a,vacine, its the only thing that will actually work, all lockdowns do is slow it down a bit

nb just about everyone has one of the two herpes viruses, its the most evolutionary  succuess virus in the history of man kind, and goes back to  before we were man kind


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> The US has proven that this is not the approach or thinking that you want to use.  The reason why the US is in the position that it's in, is because people chose to go to restaurants.
> 
> The assumption that Human's do the write thing is naive.  If that was the case then we wouldn't need laws, and even with laws people still do the right thing.  Learn a lesson from what the US is going through who recently had 180,000+ new cases yesterday.  There is no need to even debate such a thing.


but its the land of the free and home of the brave, people should be free to be brave and go to restaurants,, the uk govenment was paying people to go to restraunts at one point 

its like you want to take other freedoms off them, just stay home youl be fine stop telling others that they should be an neurotic  as you are


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> well rhats exaxtly how they controled measles mumps and chcken pox in this country before there was a vacine, kid got measles,  have a measle party and invit all the kids in the area psrticularly with mumps, as getting it later in life can make you sterile,  once youd had it you were set for life,
> 
> so its not that far fetched,
> 
> and sans a,vacine, its the only thing that will actually work, all lockdowns do is slow it down a bit
> 
> nb just about everyone has one of the two herpes viruses, its the most evolutionary  succuess virus in the history of man kind, and goes back to  before we were man kind


I'm pretty sure people who had measles parties had very little understanding of the virus.  Similar to how people in the U.S. were having Covid-19 parties.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> its like you want to take other freedoms off them, just stay home youl be fine stop telling others that they should be an neurotic as you are


 There are limits to freedom.  No such thing as absolute freedom. When there is a deadly hurricane, they have mandatory evacuations that take away your freedom to be at home..  No one says that's neurotic. 

When there is a fire and they make mandatory evacuations to abandon neighborhoods, they take away your freedom to be at home.  No one says that's neurotic.

When a person's freedom causes great harm to society then that freedom is either taken away or restricted which is why we have laws.  There is no such thing as absolute freedom.  To have the that assumption is naive.  I can list thousands of freedoms that you don't have and including some that you don't mind having taken away because it takes protects you.

People don't have the freedom to produce and sell any type of medicine they want as a cure.  There are restrictions to that freedom and most people are happy that such restrictions exist.


----------



## JowGaWolf

The biggest joke about US history being the land of the free, is that the country has a long history of restricting and taking the freedom of others within it's own borders.  People complain about wearing a mask or being asked to stay at home because of a pandemic as taking away their freedom.  As if that's the worst violation of freedom, for your country to want it's citizens to stay safe during a pandemic.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure people who had measles parties had very little understanding of the virus.  Similar to how people in the U.S. were having Covid-19 parties.


but it worked exceedling well and was govenment advice, the kids going to get it, infect every kid at the same time


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> There are limits to freedom.  No such thing as absolute freedom. When there is a deadly hurricane, they have mandatory evacuations that take away your freedom to be at home..  No one says that's neurotic.
> 
> When there is a fire and they make mandatory evacuations to abandon neighborhoods, they take away your freedom to be at home.  No one says that's neurotic.
> 
> When a person's freedom causes great harm to society then that freedom is either taken away or restricted which is why we have laws.  There is no such thing as absolute freedom.  To have the that assumption is naive.  I can list thousands of freedoms that you don't have and including some that you don't mind having taken away because it takes protects you.
> 
> People don't have the freedom to produce and sell any type of medicine they want as a cure.  There are restrictions to that freedom and most people are happy that such restrictions exist.


ok list a thousand freedoms i dont have which i dont mind


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> but it worked exceedling well and was govenment advice, the kids going to get it, infect every kid at the same time


But it didn't which is why there is a vaccine


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> ok list a thousand freedoms i dont have which i dont mind


Go and pull up the all the laws and regulations of your country and you can see for yourself.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> But it didn't which is why there is a vaccine


but it did, until they invented a vacine


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Go and pull up the all the laws and regulations of your country and you can see for yourself.


you said you could list thousands,( plural) so go on, list one thousand


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> This is simple.  When the deaths have touches the lives of those who don't believe, either directly or indirectly.  I heard a nurse today cry as she said 4 refrigerator trucks drove up because they knew that's how many people would die this week.
> 
> I don't know if this will give you hope, but Georgia used to be one of those places where I could see people not wearing a masks. A lot of times, I would see Hispanics not wearing the masks.  I haven't been to the store in a long time, but today.  I could tell tell the message and reality is sinking in.  Before it was easy to see people without masks.  Now I have to look really hard to see someone without a mask.   I went to 2 different stores.  An international super market where I saw everyone where a mask, and a hardware store where I saw only 2 people not wearing masks.  Both were black males who seem to be fit, so my only guess is that they think it wasn't going to affect them as much if they got it.
> 
> There is no way the BS can survive, when we are almost getting 200,000 cases of Covid every day.  Eventually people are going to hit that wall of reality and politics won't matter anymore.  The biggest danger at the moment are those who think "herd immunity" is the answer.  If everyone gets sick all at once then there's no one for the virus to infect.  The problem is that "herd immunity " doesn't work that way, which is why farmers will kill off live stocks by the hundreds and thousands as a way to address certain disease out breaks. The only thing accomplished by everyone getting sick is that people will die and some will have long lasting effects.  Things are always different "when it happens to  YOU."  Things will get change for the better when some of these knuckle heads join the " It happened to ME" group.
> 
> Just keep being safe and protecting yourself.  Wear a mask. Don't touch your face when you are out, always have hand sanitizer on hand.  Sanitize your hand before you grab the inside of your car. I put sanitizer on wipe the bottle with my wet hands then spray some more on and wipe my hands.  If I touch something in my car before cleaning my hands then I'll wipe where I touch.  I don't touch my face or rub my eyes when I'm out.  I'm a person who had a habit of touching my face, so I broke myself out of that habit.



Bovine livestock have not been 'slaughtered by the thousands' to address a disease in over a century. I think what you are referring to is the large scale culling of animals by producers to prevent taking an economic hit due to the downturn. These are usable, healthy, harvestable animals that were culled earlier than planned or not used for reproduction. 

A very, very different thing and a good example of how media information is spun, misunderstood, and misused. 

The closest thing I can think of that fits your comments is that in recent years the poultry industry has had incidents of large scale death from Marek's disease, a form of herpes. Marek's has been around a very long time in poultry and the only way to deal with in in a large scale is to dispose of the diseased animals. They cannot be harvested in any form.
Still a very different thing from your incorrect comments.

Here is something else cattlemen & women do Not do related to your point. We are very, very, very careful not to needlessly or overly use medications to prevent resistance. It has happened at least 10  known times in the last century in cattle, leading to large scale die-off and huge economic losses.  

IF something is causing this virus to mutate I would more believe it is the current overuse of sanitizers by humans. Something that frankly worries the hell out of me, more than catching the virus itself.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> Bovine livestock have not been 'slaughtered by the thousands' to address a disease in over a century. I think what you are referring to is the large scale culling of animals by producers to prevent taking an economic hit due to the downturn. These are usable, healthy, harvestable animals that were culled earlier than planned or not used for reproduction.
> 
> A very, very different thing and a good example of how media information is spun, misunderstood, and misused.
> 
> The closest thing I can think of that fits your comments is that in recent years the poultry industry has had incidents of large scale death from Marek's disease, a form of herpes. Marek's has been around a very long time in poultry and the only way to deal with in in a large scale is to dispose of the diseased animals. They cannot be harvested in any form.
> Still a very different thing from your incorrect comments.
> 
> Here is something else cattlemen & women do Not do related to your point. We are very, very, very careful not to needlessly or overly use medications to prevent resistance. It has happened at least 10  known times in the last century in cattle, leading to large scale die-off and huge economic losses.
> 
> IF something is causing this virus to mutate I would more believe it is the current overuse of sanitizers by humans. Something that frankly worries the hell out of me, more than catching the virus itself.


well they have here, three times in 40 years, twice to foot and mouth and once to mad cow disease

yes excessive cleanliness is very bad for you, got to keep your immune system up and running


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> well they have here, three times in 40 years, twice to foot and mouth and once to mad cow disease
> 
> yes excessive cleanliness is very bad for you, got to keep your immune system up and running


I was speaking of the US but I had forgotten how bad Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy was in Europe in the 80's & 90's. Something like 5 million cattle were slaughtered to prevent the spread confirmed in about 1/4 million head.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Removed post. Jobo brought up the cases that I had listed


----------



## JowGaWolf

removing post jobo covered it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I was speaking of the US but I had forgotten how bad Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy was in Europe in the 80's & 90's. Something like 5 million cattle were slaughtered to prevent the spread confirmed in about 1/4 million head.


The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about.  Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects.   Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit.  There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available. 

Preventive measure work better than reactive measures.  Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.



jobo said:


> yes excessive cleanliness is very bad for you, got to keep your immune system up and running


Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors.  It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house. 

You act like there's a shortage of germs.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure people who had measles parties had very little understanding of the virus.  Similar to how people in the U.S. were having Covid-19 parties.


I do not follow the news in every corner of the world but I am certain there have been no openly promoted Covid-19 parties in my area like there were with the measles. I think the measles were more understood than you give it credit for. 
As far as Covid parties on a large scale I have to call bs on that one. Have some idiots somewhere done it? Of that I am certain. We can be pretty stupid creatures.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Here is something else cattlemen & women do Not do related to your point. We are very, very, very careful not to needlessly or overly use medications to prevent resistance


This is no shock.  This is the same thing that medical doctors speak of when treating illness in people. The reason for not over medicating has nothing to do with keeping the animal healthy,  It's done so that the medicine that is available doesn't become less effective.  All living organisms have an ability to build  resistance to a certain level.  Bacteria are better at it than larger organisms because their evolution is faster.  Millions of generations are born long before we have 2 human generations born.  It's the same reason why they don't want people to throw medicine in the toilet.

It exposes bacteria to the medicines at a level that allows the bacteria to build a resistance.  Similar to how doctors say "Take all the medicine,  even when you feel better"  They say this so that the medication kills it off.  Stop too soon and the bacteria builds a resistance.  hence the term  "Super bugs"  or  "Super germs."



dvcochran said:


> IF something is causing this virus to mutate I would more believe it is the current overuse of sanitizers by humans.


 Mutation can be caused by a few things.  Pollution, Air quality, temperature, chemicals.  But natural mutation also occurs through reproduction as a way to adapt. 
Not all mutations are bad, most mutations aid in adaptation.  Skin color, body hair, height, muscular development, metabolisms have all experienced some kind of mutation that allows humans to be better suited for different environments.   This type of mutation happens over many generations and it aids in survival.  Viruses will do the same thing. The main biological programing for a virus is about reproducing.  The vaccines that are currently being worked on don't kill the virus.  Instead they prevent it from reproducing /replicating in your body. 

Bats and pigs did not use hand sanitizer so why is it that the virus mutated and jumped from animals to humans.  If hand sanitizers were the cause the the animals would have had to use the hand sanitizers since they are the host and carriers of the virus.  In addition, it doesn't affect animals the same way it affects humans.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about.  Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects.   Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit.  There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available.
> 
> Preventive measure work better than reactive measures.  Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.
> 
> 
> Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors.  It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house.
> 
> You act like there's a shortage of germs.


Nope, it is mother nature being mother nature. I am not naive enough to think something like regulations (which are usually post epidemic) are going to prevent something like the avian flu, swine flu, measles, or Covid-19 (mild by comparison) to occur. 
And that comes from someone who is enough of a conspiracy theorist to believe much of our health issues could be prevented if there wasn't so much money in them; and in death itself for that matter.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Go and pull up the all the laws and regulations of your country and you can see for yourself.


You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are. It is foolish to say 'there is no real freedom'. This is how things like morals, ethics, and just plain common sense get lost. I/we are free to do anything we want. But most of use are smart enough with enough morals and ethics not to go out and kill someone, even if we wanted to do so. It is like saying I can stop breathing if I wish. I can until I pass out and then my body naturally takes over. Our rules and regulations are much the same; they do not stop a person from doing anything if they so choose. But they are trail markers to show us the better way to go. 
That is some strange thinking you have.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I do not follow the news in every corner of the world but I am certain there have been no openly promoted Covid-19 parties


This is a good thing if no Covid-19 parties were held in your area. 



dvcochran said:


> As far as Covid parties on a large scale I have to call bs on that one. Have some idiots somewhere done it? Of that I am certain. We can be pretty stupid creatures.


 This wasn't done on a large scale.  It was a few pockets of the U.S.  sort of like how some people are anti-vaccine.  It's not a large scale thing, just in pockets.  Which is good as well.  The few that took place were back when people thought COVID-19 was just like the flu.  The theory was to catch it like the flu and to build an immunity to it.  Thinking that it will be like the flu in that you would be less likely to catch it again that year.  

It quickly faded once the body counts started.  Then it was young people aren't affected by it mess.  The entire spread of information is FUBAR. The scientist initially thought the virus is a respiratory one, but now they think it may be a blood disease, which probably better explains things like organ failure and why "they say people with Blood type O" don't catch it easily.   If blood types affect the ability to infect then it starts to point to blood.  But I'm not placing any bets on that yet.  Scientists are still in the discovery phase.  

The reality about Scientist is that it's true that they are Right.,  but they do a lot of failing (scientific method) before they come up with a correct answer.  I think of scientific discoveries and answers as as series of screw ups that lead you to the right answer.  Right now we are still in that "series of screw ups"  

My approach to Covid-19 has been simple.  I watched it cross the globe and I watch what works for the people in the countries that had it before the U.S. had it. The only things I've trusted in terms of science is how viruses enter the body. That much is well known and proven.  Anything else science has to say about Covid-19, I consider it to still be in the discovery phase, which is why we often hear scientist still say "There's much that we don't know about the virus."

Airborne viruses enter through the nose, mouth, and eyes. I'm assuming they can enter the through the ear as well, but may have a difficult time due to the ear wax.  So with that known reality, masks make sense to me, washing hands make sense to me as I often touch my face and rub my eyes.  All of that other "discovery" stuff that scientist say, I look at as a temporary understanding that is most likely to change.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are. It is foolish to say 'there is no real freedom'.


A society with absolute freedom has no laws.  Laws determine what your freedoms are and what they aren't.  in 2016 there were* "2.3 million people* were incarcerated in the United States"

Where is their freedom?  I'll use MT as an example.  Are we free to talk about politics and sexual intercourse in this forum?  Rules say no.  MT takes away your freedom. We willingly give that freedom up when we come to MT because  MT determines where freedom of speech begins and ends.  Can I run around my neighborhood nude? Well what if I'm on my own property? nope?  I should be able to if I have absolute freedom.  If I own cabin in the woods with no neighbors then I could do it.  So why do I have freedom there and not in my neighborhood? Rules, laws, and regulations restrict freedoms, especially when it's in the best interest in the health of society.

*This is the definition of freedom.
free·dom - the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint.*

A lot of thing that you think are free are only free within the boundaries a law that either prevents or restrains.  Things like driving a car isn't freedom there are laws and regulations that determine if you can drive a car. Even if you can drive a car, it doesn't mean you are fee to operate a motorcyle.  
Speech is not free.  It's regulated.

Georgia law on speech "They are also guaranteed by the *Georgia* Constitution in Article 1, section 1, paragraph 5: "No *law* shall be passed to curtail or restrain the freedom of *speech* or of the press. -Every person may speak, write, and publish sentiments on all subjects but shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty.""

Did you catch that last part? "but shall be responsible for the abuse of that liberty."  How can I abuse something that is considered a freedom?  Is it really "freedom of speech if I can be locked up for the words that come out of my mouth or for the words that I type or print?"



dvcochran said:


> But most of use are smart enough with enough morals and ethics not to go out and kill someone, even if we wanted to do so.


Most of us is not ALL OF US.   
In *2019*, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 16,425 
In *2018*, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 16,214 
In *2017*, the estimated number of murders in the nation was 17,284

One can only assume that all the people who murder someone in 2017 also murdered someone in 2018.  The assumption that I'm more likely to make is that many of those murders in 2018 were from people who didn't murder someone in 2017.  These could be people who fit your assumption "Most of us are smart enough with enough morals and ethics in 2017 then didn't fit it in 2018.



dvcochran said:


> It is like saying I can stop breathing if I wish. I can until I pass out and then my body naturally takes over.


You can do this in the U.S.  it's a freedom But if you choose to do it while flying a plane then the co-pilot can report you, which may result in your removal. Again, due to your negligence cause by you willingly holding your breath until you pass out.  Again laws and regulation, will determine where you can do something.  You can do it all you want in your home.  

*Montpelier man tells police crash that injured three caused when he held his breath, passed out *
driver was cited for assault (4th degree), reckless driving and three counts of reckless endangering.  Source: Police: Driver holding breath in tunnel faints, causes crash

There are laws and regulations that dictate time and place that one can do such a thing. 

*Pools ban prolonged breath holding after young man's death*
_Learning to hold your breath is an essential skill when learning to swim. However, certain types of breath holding can be deadly. The YMCA prohibits breath holding activities such as static apnea – a practice where a person holds his or her breath in a motionless position. Static apnea is a particular concern because the swimmer’s lack of movement provides no feedback to the lifeguard as to whether or not the swimmer is ok. YMCA lifeguards are trained to react to any person who remains motionless under water for more than 10 seconds. Prolonged breath holding is not permitted at the Y at any time, with or without supervision._

Mecklenburg County, as a whole, enforces the same ban at all public pools
source: Pools ban prolonged breath holding after young man's death | wcnc.com


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You really, really need to crack a history book on several nations and you will learn just how great the freedoms in the US really are.


The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom."  As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom.  As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms.  Is that really true freedom?  What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail?  What about that freedom.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> The only reason the U.S. hasn't seen something like that in a while is due to all of the regulation that people complain about.  Farmer and Ranchers understand the dangers of a disease out break and how it affects.   Georgia had one in it's poultry industry when Bird Flu hit.  There are still guides and FDA information on how to go about culling the herd that are still available.
> 
> Preventive measure work better than reactive measures.  Catch it early as possible isolate, kill part of the herd if it will save the rest.
> 
> 
> Live with a pet, flush a toilet, go hiking, do some gardening without gloves if you are that worried about not getting enough germs. Many Americans wear shoes inside the house so there's that. From public restrooms to germs on the street, and dirty grocery floors.  It all gets tracked back to your car and then into your house.
> 
> You act like there's a shortage of germs.


well these people are generally healthier than cleanliness freaks

the problem isnt theres not enough germs in the world rather there not enough germs on your hand being transferred to your body, now fetal matter needs some consideration, you can definitely over do that, but everything else you encounter on an average day does you more good than harm

so the problem with obsessive hand sanitiser is two fold, 1 it puts your immune system to sleep so when you actually do need it it doesn't work properly and second it will soon   breed resistant covid meaning it wont work if you actually need to sanatise your hands after someone sneeze on you


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom."  As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom.  As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms.  Is that really true freedom?  What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail?  What about that freedom.


under English common law systems everything that isnt specifically banned is allowed, which differs from the continental system of everything that isnt specifically allowed is banned. most of the states being an english common law jurisdiction

you do indeed have absolute freedom in america in that if you dont like the laws you can leave, breaking the laws rather than leaving, may well see your freedom to leave curtailed some what, but thats coz you did it in the wrong order

but your correct in that freedoms are being steadily and progressively eroded, why then are you in favour of speeding up that reduction in freedoms, particularly when this will have almost no positive outcomes as far as covid is concerned

and if you reply saying it will, il ask you to prove it, which ive asked before and all i got in response was a load of waffle


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> The U.S. allows you to do more things with fewer restrictions than what other countries have. Having restrictions is not the same has having freedom. The fact that the laws determine if you have freedom or not kind of counters the idea that "we have true freedom."  As a someone in a jail cell about their freedom.  As a society we it fit to jail another and to remove their freedoms.  Is that really true freedom?  What if you are innocent of a crime and you spend time in jail?  What about that freedom.



Wow, just wow. That is far beyond being liberal in your thinking and downright scary that you do not see the gross disconnection. 
So you are saying there should be no jails? No recourse when someone wrongs you, steals from you, kills your child, and on and on. No police or court systems? No recourse if someone cheats you in your business? Any of these offenses should be left to you alone to deal with? 
I at a loss as to how to reason with you kind of thinking.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> This is a good thing if no Covid-19 parties were held in your area.
> 
> This wasn't done on a large scale.  It was a few pockets of the U.S.  sort of like how some people are anti-vaccine.  It's not a large scale thing, just in pockets.  Which is good as well.  The few that took place were back when people thought COVID-19 was just like the flu.  The theory was to catch it like the flu and to build an immunity to it.  Thinking that it will be like the flu in that you would be less likely to catch it again that year.
> 
> It quickly faded once the body counts started.  Then it was young people aren't affected by it mess.  The entire spread of information is FUBAR. The scientist initially thought the virus is a respiratory one, but now they think it may be a blood disease, which probably better explains things like organ failure and why "they say people with Blood type O" don't catch it easily.   If blood types affect the ability to infect then it starts to point to blood.  But I'm not placing any bets on that yet.  Scientists are still in the discovery phase.
> 
> The reality about Scientist is that it's true that they are Right.,  but they do a lot of failing (scientific method) before they come up with a correct answer.  I think of scientific discoveries and answers as as series of screw ups that lead you to the right answer.  Right now we are still in that "series of screw ups"
> 
> My approach to Covid-19 has been simple.  I watched it cross the globe and I watch what works for the people in the countries that had it before the U.S. had it. The only things I've trusted in terms of science is how viruses enter the body. That much is well known and proven.  Anything else science has to say about Covid-19, I consider it to still be in the discovery phase, which is why we often hear scientist still say "There's much that we don't know about the virus."
> 
> Airborne viruses enter through the nose, mouth, and eyes. I'm assuming they can enter the through the ear as well, but may have a difficult time due to the ear wax.  So with that known reality, masks make sense to me, washing hands make sense to me as I often touch my face and rub my eyes.  All of that other "discovery" stuff that scientist say, I look at as a temporary understanding that is most likely to change.



So how does this jive with your freedom rhetoric? You are counting on someone else (scientist) to determine how you act and what you should/should not do. How is this not affecting your 'freedoms' in the definitions you spouted earlier? 
Just ridiculous thinking.


----------



## Bruce7

The People that are dying in South Dakota with their last breaths say I don't have covid, it is a hoax.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> The People that are dying in South Dakota with their last breaths say I don't have covid, it is a hoax.


I "liked" your post, but to be clear, I hate the message, but appreciate you sharing it.


----------



## jobo

its just occurred me, they are claiming the covid vaccine gives you a 95% chance of surviving covid exposure, where as not having the vaccine gives you a 99% chance of surviving,

something wrong here, when the vaccine is less effective than our own immune systems


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> its just occurred me, they are claiming the covid vaccine gives you a 95% chance of surviving covid exposure, where as not having the vaccine gives you a 99% chance of surviving,
> 
> something wrong here, when the vaccine is less effective than our own immune systems


You misunderstand the 95% figure.   Look it up again and read it more carefully.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> You misunderstand the 95% figure.   Look it up again and read it more carefully.


no, im pretty sure im correct


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> no, im pretty sure im correct


It's 95% protection against getting the disease. So 95% chance of not getting COVID even if you're around the disease. meanwhile the 99% claim (which isn't accurate per Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center) is whether or not you will die with COVID. In the US you've got about a 98% chance of survival if you have the disease. So with the vaccine, assuming the numbers are all correct, you've got a 5% chance of getting the disease after exposure, and then a 2% of dying if you have the disease, which means that you've actually got a .1% chance of dying after being exposed to the virus, if you have the vaccine.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

As far as I know there's no actual % chance of getting COVID after being exposed. If there was, you could compare it to the above .1% chance of dying w/ vaccine & exposure in the US, to the % chance of dying w/exposure and no vaccine in the US, to see how important it is.


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's 95% protection against getting the disease. So 95% chance of not getting COVID even if you're around the disease. meanwhile the 99% claim (which isn't accurate per Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center) is whether or not you will die with COVID. In the US you've got about a 98% chance of survival if you have the disease. So with the vaccine, assuming the numbers are all correct, you've got a 5% chance of getting the disease after exposure, and then a 2% of dying if you have the disease, which means that you've actually got a .1% chance of dying after being exposed to the virus, if you



but getting the virus isnt the problem, its dieing of it that is, so with the vaccine i have a 1% chance of dieing, with out the vacine i have a 1% chance of dieing  or using your figures a 2% chance,,, so not really worth the bother


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> but getting the virus isnt the problem, its dieing of it that is, so with the vaccine i have a 1% chance of dieing, with out the vacine i have a 1% chance of dieing  or using your figures a 2% chance,,, so not really worth the bother


I think you missed the . In the vaccine percentage. If the number they quoted is accurate, your likelihood of dying after an exposure has decreased to up to a 20th of what it was (depending on how likely you were to get COVID from exposure beforehand).

And there are a lot of other possible side effects from the virus, but I know you've heard those and just don't care, so I won't get into that part of it.


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> but getting the virus isnt the problem, its dieing of it that is, so with the vaccine i have a 1% chance of dieing, with out the vacine i have a 1% chance of dieing  or using your figures a 2% chance,,, so not really worth the bother



Are you really this uninformed about how this works, or are you just trolling?


----------



## dvcochran

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> As far as I know there's no actual % chance of getting COVID after being exposed. If there was, you could compare it to the above .1% chance of dying w/ vaccine & exposure in the US, to the % chance of dying w/exposure and no vaccine in the US, to see how important it is.


That is a pretty big "as far as I know". There is still too much unknown for me to get excited about a vaccine. This includes unknowns about the virus And the vaccine itself. 
Someone else can be the guinea pig.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

dvcochran said:


> That is a pretty big "as far as I know". There is still too much unknown for me to get excited about a vaccine. This includes unknowns about the virus And the vaccine itself.
> Someone else can be the guinea pig.


That unknown has nothing to do with the vaccine though. And they know how contagious it is, that's determined by the R0 when left unchecked, I just don't think it's been translated to %, which makes it tough to put in my above equation.


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That unknown has nothing to do with the vaccine though. And they know how contagious it is, that's determined by the R0 when left unchecked, I just don't think it's been translated to %, which makes it tough to put in my above equation.


well its not very contagious, as demonstrated by the fact that the R is circa two over a month or so

so allowing that an average person will have thousands of people within a coupe of metes in that time, that they only infect two, means its harder to catch than unicorns


----------



## dvcochran

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That unknown has nothing to do with the vaccine though. And they know how contagious it is, that's determined by the R0 when left unchecked, I just don't think it's been translated to %, which makes it tough to put in my above equation.


And to your point, I am not aware of a % likelihood of catching the virus when not "exposed". In other words having not being around other people. We know this is occurring but to my knowledge the occurrence has not been weighted. 
Just another stat that means very little at this point. 
A family in an adjoining county had to file a lawsuit against Vanderbilt Medical to have a mother's cause of death changed from Covid-19 to the actual reason which was stage 4 liver cancer. The person's insurance was refusing to pay the bills due to the original COD stated. Two local litigation firms have side with the family and are going after Vanderbilt with a list of charges. I expect this is just the tip of the iceberg for cases like this. 
Like the medial and insurance fields were not already a Mess.


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> And to your point, I am not aware of a % likelihood of catching the virus when not "exposed". In other words having not being around other people. We know this is occurring but to my knowledge the occurrence has not been weighted.
> Just another stat that means very little at this point.
> A family in an adjoining county had to file a lawsuit against Vanderbilt Medical to have a mother's cause of death changed from Covid-19 to the actual reason which was stage 4 liver cancer. The person's insurance was refusing to pay the bills due to the original COD stated. Two local litigation firms have side with the family and are going after Vanderbilt with a list of charges. I expect this is just the tip of the iceberg for cases like this.
> Like the medial and insurance fields were not already a Mess.


well il answer that for you, the % chance of catching the virus when not exsposed to the virus is zero


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> well il answer that for you, the % chance of catching the virus when not exsposed to the virus is zero


That why I put it in quotes. Apparently that is not for certain and may just be 'floating' around in the air. Frankly, who the hell knows right now?


----------



## Bruce7

*Taiwan''s total deaths from covid this year 2020 is 7. The number is 7 dead, this is not a misprint.
I guess the Taiwan government knows how to beat covid.

CNBC report on how Taiwan beat the corona virus.*
How Taiwan beat the coronavirus

*Taiwan's total death is still 7. Todays numbers below.*
taiwan covid deaths - Google Search


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Wow, just wow. That is far beyond being liberal in your thinking and downright scary that you do not see the gross disconnection.
> So you are saying there should be no jails? No recourse when someone wrongs you, steals from you, kills your child, and on and on. No police or court systems? No recourse if someone cheats you in your business? Any of these offenses should be left to you alone to deal with?
> I at a loss as to how to reason with you kind of thinking.


You don't understand me because you keep trying put in that liberal box.
Show me where I said that I think there shouldn't be jails.
Show me where I said that I think
Show me where I said that I think there should be no recourse.
All of those examples that I gave is proves that there is no such thing as absolute freedom.

Spend less time trying to make assumptions about what I'm about.  You are so desperately trying to put me in "liberal" box.  That it skews your perception about how people really are. 



dvcochran said:


> So how does this jive with your freedom rhetoric? You are counting on someone else (scientist) to determine how you act and what you should/should not do.


What are you talk about dude.  How many years have you study viruses and pandemics?  Do you have any experience with trying to reduce epidemics? Have you have any experience with developing vaccines?  If not then why would listen to you , instead of someone who has been studying that stuff for most of their lives.

You are that type of person who goes to a martial arts schools and tries to tell the martial art teacher what he or she doesn't know about the system when it's your first day learning the system.

List to people who know more than you. If you don't know about viruses and controlling Pandemics then you better find someone who does, because you got ZERO experience.  So yes, I listen to scientists who know more about a subject matter than i do. And there's nothing wrong that.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Bruce7 said:


> The People that are dying in South Dakota with their last breaths say I don't have covid, it is a hoax.


That's because they are so arrogant that they can't accept that someone knows more about about something than they do.  Those people have never studied medicine, never treated patients, have not clue about viruses., yet they know more about people who spent there lives working in the medical field and treating patients.

They freaking go to the hospital for help, then tell the doctors and nurses that they don't know crap.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's 95% protection against getting the disease. So 95% chance of not getting COVID even if you're around the disease. meanwhile the 99% claim (which isn't accurate per Mortality Analyses - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center) is whether or not you will die with COVID. In the US you've got about a 98% chance of survival if you have the disease. So with the vaccine, assuming the numbers are all correct, you've got a 5% chance of getting the disease after exposure, and then a 2% of dying if you have the disease, which means that you've actually got a .1% chance of dying after being exposed to the virus, if you have the vaccine.


Always down with the source links:  I appreciate it always.  

The survival rate of surviving Covid without a vaccine is all relative to a few things.
1. What strain does the person have?
2. Was that person able to get medical attention? (right now with hospitals filling up, that answer may be No more than Yes)
3. Does that person have a physical, medical, or emotional condition that makes Covid-19 more damaging.  I hear people talk about how they are getting depressed just from staying in the house.  If staying home makes them depressed, then having Covid-19 isn't going to make them feel better than staying at home.
4. Does the person have a high exposure rate?  Are they always around people with covid or do they stay away from people?

I don't know why people can't use critical thinking skills about some of this stuff.  They take a number and never factor anything beyond getting a number.  They never seek out the context.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Bruce7 said:


> *Taiwan''s total deaths from covid this year 2020 is 7. The number is 7 dead, this is not a misprint.
> I guess the Taiwan government knows how to beat covid.
> 
> CNBC report on how Taiwan beat the corona virus.*
> How Taiwan beat the coronavirus
> 
> *Taiwan's total death is still 7. Todays numbers below.*
> taiwan covid deaths - Google Search


Thanks for the sources.  I appreciate it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Are you really this uninformed about how this works, or are you just trolling?


If you had to ask,.. lol


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> *Taiwan''s total deaths from covid this year 2020 is 7. The number is 7 dead, this is not a misprint.
> I guess the Taiwan government knows how to beat covid.
> 
> CNBC report on how Taiwan beat the corona virus.*
> How Taiwan beat the coronavirus
> 
> *Taiwan's total death is still 7. Todays numbers below.*
> taiwan covid deaths - Google Search


i suspect they have a closed border with china has helped no end


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> You don't understand me because you keep trying put in that liberal box.
> Show me where I said that I think there shouldn't be jails.
> Show me where I said that I think
> Show me where I said that I think there should be no recourse.
> All of those examples that I gave is proves that there is no such thing as absolute freedom.
> 
> Spend less time trying to make assumptions about what I'm about.  You are so desperately trying to put me in "liberal" box.  That it skews your perception about how people really are.
> 
> What are you talk about dude.  How many years have you study viruses and pandemics?  Do you have any experience with trying to reduce epidemics? Have you have any experience with developing vaccines?  If not then why would listen to you , instead of someone who has been studying that stuff for most of their lives.
> 
> You are that type of person who goes to a martial arts schools and tries to tell the martial art teacher what he or she doesn't know about the system when it's your first day learning the system.
> 
> List to people who know more than you. If you don't know about viruses and controlling Pandemics then you better find someone who does, because you got ZERO experience.  So yes, I listen to scientists who know more about a subject matter than i do. And there's nothing wrong that.



In regards to your freedom reference, it was you who started that line, and it was while the conversation centered around very physical and tangible ideas. If you were talking about mental emotional freedom then why did you not have the good sense to clarify your line of thinking? Because at this point you may be talking about cheese doddles for all I know. 
So yes, me and others are going to perceive your 'freedom' rhetoric to disclude jails and actions without recourse.
Again; substance to show you line of freedom thinking is rather embellished and liberal. You are on the lunatic fringe with this.

My work is not involved with the study or creation of viruses or how they behave. Is yours? 
My work is sometimes involved with the handling, manufacturing, and storage of viruses. Is yours? 
I have to have a limited degree of intimate understanding of certain viruses. Do you?
I watch and/or hear 4 different news feeds everyday, each from a different social/political perspective. Do you?
I feel it is very sad that our media has devolved to a point that this is required to ensure a person is learning as much of the true news as possible. How do you feel about that?
Question; how often do you hear the actual 'experts' talking about this virus? Seldom and in limited blips. Instead we are most often fed second hand information and/or modified information to fit an agenda. How often can you say you get your information straight from the horses mouth? And no, by your standard this would Not include briefings by the CDC, etc....

I have trained and/or been invited to teach at hundreds of schools. You cannot do that with the ego you seem to think I have. My passion for martial arts makes me a forever student. I greatly enjoy when I am afforded the opportunity to line up and just workout. I have been successful enough in my journey that I do not have anything to prove to anyone. If I am asked about something MA related and it is in the appropriate environment I will give an answer based on my experience. And my experience reaches far beyond a singular style or a singular answer to a specific component.

So get over your little hissy fit. Think about how what you write is perceived by Everyone, not just yourself and people of your same viewpoint. Just because you say something really, really loud does not make it fact, which seems to be a consistent belief of yours. Damn dude, get a grip.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> *Taiwan''s total deaths from covid this year 2020 is 7. The number is 7 dead, this is not a misprint.
> I guess the Taiwan government knows how to beat covid.
> 
> CNBC report on how Taiwan beat the corona virus.*
> How Taiwan beat the coronavirus
> 
> *Taiwan's total death is still 7. Todays numbers below.*
> taiwan covid deaths - Google Search



Very interesting article Bruce. It talked about how Taiwan has a plan and sticks to the plan but I did not see where it talked about the plan specifically. The exception being in regards to travel. 
It is worth noting that Taiwan is about 3 times smaller than New York. Each US state has or should have plans of some sort in place and there are federal mandates in place so it is always confusing to me when people think there are no plans in place here in the US.
Why are our numbers higher? I cannot say but it clearly tracks with areas where the population is heavily congested. 

Is Taiwan one of the countries where people have regularly worn masks for years?


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> That why I put it in quotes. Apparently that is not for certain and may just be 'floating' around in the air. Frankly, who the hell knows right now?


well the uk deaths from the virus reached irs peak last month, but the total deaths in the uk was only eight more than last october, so somethibg is very wrong some where with the figures


----------



## jobo

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think you missed the . In the vaccine percentage. If the number they quoted is accurate, your likelihood of dying after an exposure has decreased to up to a 20th of what it was (depending on how likely you were to get COVID from exposure beforehand).
> 
> And there are a lot of other possible side effects from the virus, but I know you've heard those and just don't care, so I won't get into that part of it.


so its decreased by a 20th of 1 % , wow


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> so its decreased by a 20th of 1 % , wow


In a poker game, that's not much.  Doesn't sound like much... such a small number.  However, these percentages, and even fractions of percentages, are exceedingly important when they represent actual lives.

In the USA, we have somewhere in the area of 11.5 million cases with 250k deaths.  That's a death rate of just north of 2%, not even considering the number of people who are admitted to the ICU who experience serious symptoms and survive.  We're hitting about 170k new cases reported every day, with ICUs filling to capacity, and are approaching 2k deaths per day.

We have a total population of about 330 million people.  That leaves, one, two, add a few... over 315 million remaining who could become infected, and as the rate of infection is exponential, we could get there pretty quickly.  2% of 315 million is 6,300,000 people who could die if infected.  If a vaccination could reduce the infection rate by 95%, we're talking potential risk for about 285,000,000 people mitigated and reducing the pool of people who could become infected to a literal fraction of the population.  And that's how herd immunity comes into play safely.

And for what it's worth, the difference between 1% and .1% in a population as large as in the USA represents a lot of people.  I mean .1% of 330 million people is still 3.3 million people.


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> Very interesting article Bruce. It talked about how Taiwan has a plan and sticks to the plan but I did not see where it talked about the plan specifically. The exception being in regards to travel.
> It is worth noting that Taiwan is about 3 times smaller than New York. Each US state has or should have plans of some sort in place and there are federal mandates in place so it is always confusing to me when people think there are no plans in place here in the US.
> Why are our numbers higher? I cannot say but it clearly tracks with areas where the population is heavily congested.
> 
> Is Taiwan one of the countries where people have regularly worn masks for years?



Taiwan 23.78 million (2018)     New York State 19.45 million (2019)
Taiwan (13,976 sq mi)              New York State 54,555 sq mi

Taiwan population density is 4 times New York State.

I have lost the article with Taiwan's plan, when I find it I will post it.
Best I remember and my memory is not the best they tested and quarantine everyone coming in to the country.
Tested everyone in the country and did contact tracing.
Everyone wore mask from day one.
Schools did not close, but they put up clear plastic cubicles on the desk.
Students had to eat at their desk.
They improved the ventilation of the buildings.
Had large stock piles of PPE 
They did more things I can not remember off the top of my head.

I read the article sometime in the summer.  

My understanding is they started developing the plan 10 years ago.
They activated the program as soon as they learn China had a virus.
They have not had a death in over 200 days.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> Taiwan 23.78 million (2018)     New York State 19.45 million (2019)
> Taiwan (13,976 sq mi)              New York State 54,555 sq mi
> 
> Taiwan population density is 4 times New York State.
> 
> I have lost the article with Taiwan's plan, when I find it I will post it.
> Best I remember and my memory is not the best they tested and quarantine everyone coming in to the country.
> Tested everyone in the country and did contact tracing.
> Everyone wore mask from day one.
> Schools did not close, but they put up clear plastic cubicles on the desk.
> Students had to eat at their desk.
> They improved the ventilation of the buildings.
> Had large stock piles of PPE
> They did more things I can not remember off the top of my head.
> 
> I read the article sometime in the summer.
> 
> My understanding is they started developing the plan 10 years ago.
> They activated the program as soon as they learn China had a virus.
> They have not had a death in over 200 days.


Current results speak for themselves:

Checking quickly this morning, Taiwan has an infection rate of about .002% and a mortality rate of about 1.1%.  That's based on my quick math with rounded numbers, so please feel free to double check my numbers.  Similarly, New York State has an infection rate of close to 3% and a mortality rate of almost 6%.  So, far less population density, yet three times the infection rate per capita, and six times the morbidity.  That's alarming.  




 




South Dakota has a population of about 885,000 people, living on 77k sq. miles.  That's 11.3 square miles per person.  Here's what they look like this morning:



 

That's an infection rate of about 7.8%.  Their morbidity is surprisingly low.  I'm not sure if that's good news or not (hopefully it is).  I'm not sure they will be able to sustain those low death rates.  It doesn't appear so, considering they reported 30 deaths just yesterday.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> In a poker game, that's not much.  Doesn't sound like much... such a small number.  However, these percentages, and even fractions of percentages, are exceedingly important when they represent actual lives.
> 
> In the USA, we have somewhere in the area of 11.5 million cases with 250k deaths.  That's a death rate of just north of 2%, not even considering the number of people who are admitted to the ICU who experience serious symptoms and survive.  We're hitting about 170k new cases reported every day, with ICUs filling to capacity, and are approaching 2k deaths per day.
> 
> We have a total population of about 330 million people.  That leaves, one, two, add a few... over 315 million remaining who could become infected, and as the rate of infection is exponential, we could get there pretty quickly.  2% of 315 million is 6,300,000 people who could die if infected.  If a vaccination could reduce the infection rate by 95%, we're talking potential risk for about 285,000,000 people mitigated and reducing the pool of people who could become infected to a literal fraction of the population.  And that's how herd immunity comes into play safely.
> 
> And for what it's worth, the difference between 1% and .1% in a population as large as in the USA represents a lot of people.  I mean .1% of 330 million people is still 3.3 million people.


well no, as said the global tarketc  for vacination,os 3% in the medium term, so its not goibg to have that effect at all. vacines only work when you have almost blanket coverage, some time in 2025 perhaps

80% of people are immune it seems,, one %  of those who catch it will probebly die, , who knows how many that is, but it doesnt work out at 3.3 milkion dead

yes its a sjame people have to die, but thete is nothing that can stop it, unless we all live in sealed bubbles


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> well no, as said the global tarketc  for vacination,os 3% in the medium term, so its not goibg to have that effect at all. vacines only work when you have almost blanket coverage, some time in 2025 perhaps
> 
> 80% of people are immune it seems,, one %  of those who catch it will probebly die, , who knows how many that is, but it doesnt work out at 3.3 milkion dead
> 
> yes its a sjame people have to die, but thete is nothing that can stop it, unless we all live in sealed bubbles


80% are immune?    Cool. Can you share a link to some credible sources that say that?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

jobo said:


> so its decreased by a 20th of 1 % , wow


*decreased to a 20th of 1%. Big difference between the two sentences.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> why did you not have the good sense to clarify your line of thinking?


It's not me. It's you.  Your first response is to think someone is a LIBERAL and  from there everything that follows is based on that concept of what  you think LIBERAL means who you think fits it.  When you don't agree with something you automatically reduce someone to a  POLITICAL DEFINITION of LIBERAL.

This is you "
"*So yes, me and others are going to perceive your 'freedom' rhetoric to disclude jails and actions without recourse.
Again; substance to show you line of freedom thinking is rather embellished and liberal. You are on the lunatic fringe with this*"

This is me


JowGaWolf said:


> A society with absolute freedom has no laws. Laws determine what your freedoms are and what they aren't.


But you don't read this. You just go straight political and define someone as LIBERAL
And this is point I'm making. You even proved my point by your statement when you bring this statement.  "No recourse when someone wrongs"

Spend less time trying put people in to Political Drama character boxes.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> 80% are immune?    Cool. Can you share a link to some credible sources that say that?


i got it from here, one of the lock down fanboys posted a link to a study

80% are asymptomatic,  thay are immune to sympoms like dieing,


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> i got it from here, one of the lock down fanboys posted a link to a study
> 
> 80% are asymptomatic,  thay are immune to sympoms like dieing,


Asymptomatic isn't immune, though.  Or to say it more clearly, people who are asymptomatic are still included in the number of people who are considered as having contracted the virus.  So, when we talk about the number of cases vs the number of people who died, it includes those folks who had minimal issues. 

I'm still interested in that link... even if you could post a link to the fanboy who posted the link.  You aren't the most credible person here.  I mean, aren't you the guy who suggested Oxford did a study saying masks don't work?


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not me. It's you.  Your first response is to think someone is a LIBERAL and  from there everything that follows is based on that concept of what  you think LIBERAL means who you think fits it.  When you don't agree with something you automatically reduce someone to a  POLITICAL DEFINITION of LIBERAL.
> 
> This is you "
> "*So yes, me and others are going to perceive your 'freedom' rhetoric to disclude jails and actions without recourse.
> Again; substance to show you line of freedom thinking is rather embellished and liberal. You are on the lunatic fringe with this*"
> 
> This is me
> 
> But you don't read this. You just go straight political and define someone as LIBERAL
> And this is point I'm making. You even proved my point by your statement when you bring this statement.  "No recourse when someone wrongs"
> 
> Spend less time trying put people in to Political Drama character boxes.


"Disclude?"  That's a made up word.  Who said that?


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Asymptomatic isn't immune, though.  Or to say it more clearly, people who are asymptomatic are still included in the number of people who are considered as having contracted the virus.  So, when we talk about the number of cases vs the number of people who died, it includes those folks who had minimal issues.
> 
> I'm still interested in that link... even if you could post a link to the fanboy who posted the link.  You aren't the most credible person here.  I mean, aren't you the guy who suggested Oxford did a study saying masks don't work?


ive just had a quick google there a mulitude of different figures for those found to be asymptomatic,  20% 40% 60% 80% and it seems to vary accross age range or mire acuratly the youbger healthyer your are the more chance of you beibg asymtomatic, the actual link is list somewhere in the mulitude of closed threads

that aside if your asymptomatic you wont have any ill effects, clue is in the name you are therefore immune from death by covid

just read a repirt today that 50% of the uk popukation had the virus back in june the vast majority didnt know,  maybe they had a bit of a coulth maybe they didnt.

i do remmember feeling a bit off colour round about then


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> ive just had a quick google there a mulitude of different figures for those found to be asymptomatic,  20% 40% 60% 80% and it seems to vary accross age range or mire acuratly the youbger healthyer your are the more chance of you beibg asymtomatic, the actual link is list somewhere in the mulitude of closed threads
> 
> that aside if your asymptomatic you wont have any ill effects, clue is in the name you are therefore immune from death by covid
> 
> just read a repirt today that 50% of the uk popukation had the virus back in june the vast majority didnt know,  maybe they had a bit of a coulth maybe they didnt


I think you're not understanding how that is already factored in, and I'm sorry, but today I don't have the time to try and explain it to you.  Suffice to say that if 80, 90 or even 95% of people are asymptomatic, if they contracted the virus, that has nothing to do with infection rates or the actual death toll.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> I think you're not understanding how that is already factored in, and I'm sorry, but today I don't have the time to try and explain it to you.  Suffice to say that if 80, 90 or even 95% of people are asymptomatic, if they contracted the virus, that has nothing to do with infection rates or the actual death toll.


its got everything to do with the death toll, obs, if 95% of the population are asymtomatic then only 5% of the polulation has the slightest chance of dieing of it, and by slight i mean 1% of that 5%,, thats if then even catch it


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> its got everything to do with the death toll, obs, if 95% of the population are asymtomatic then only 5% of the polulation has the slightest chance of dieing of it, and by slight i mean 1% of that 5%,, thats if then even catch it


But... dude... 2% is less than 5%.  Right?  If the death toll, including folks who are asymptomatic, is somewhere between 1 and 2%, the number of folks who are asymptomatic is beside the point.

Though raising the percentage of folks who are asymptomatic will certainly help flatten the curve for hospitalizations.  If folks who need an ICU bed can't get one, that will raise the mortality rate. 

And the good news, is that if we can raise the percentage of folks who are seriously ill and also reduce the death rate or percentage of folks who are gravely ill, we can get around this thing.  right now, that's not happening in the USA.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> But... dude... 2% is less than 5%.  Right?  If the death toll, including folks who are asymptomatic, is somewhere between 1 and 2%, the number of folks who are asymptomatic is beside the point.


as dieing (asphyxiation)is a,symptom of covid, people who are asymtomatic dont by defintion die of covid, isnt that a clear and obvious truth ?


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> as dieing is a,symptom of covid, people who are asymtomatic dont by defintion die of covid, isnt that a clear and obvious truth ?


Yeah, my friend, you're just not getting it, and I don't think I can explain it so you can.  Sorry.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Yeah, my friend, you're just not getting it, and I don't think I can explain it so you can.  Sorry.


ive got it mate, its you who lacking in this instance.

its like you want it to be worse than it is


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> "Disclude?"  That's a made up word.  Who said that?


See Post #96

It's just going to be one of those weeks.


----------



## Bruce7

*On a happy note Dolly Parton donated a million *
*dollars in April to help **research** for covid **vaccine**.*
*Researchers** at Vanderbilt University were helped by her donation.*
*Dolly Parton 'honoured and proud' to help Covid-19 battle*


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> See Post #96
> 
> It's just going to be one of those weeks.


Ah, got it.  It's a function of the way the forum software handles certain things.  I'm tracking now.

Still... "disclude" is a funny word.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> *On a happy note Dolly Parton donated a million *
> *dollars in April to help **research** for covid **vaccine**.*
> *Researchers** at Vanderbilt University were helped by her donation.
> Dolly Parton 'honoured and proud' to help Covid-19 battle*


She's pretty amazing.  Wonderful to hear her speak, too.  She just oozes compassion and empathy.  If you haven't seen it, she made Stephen Colbert teary eyed on the Late Show a few weeks ago.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not me. It's you.  Your first response is to think someone is a LIBERAL and  from there everything that follows is based on that concept of what  you think LIBERAL means who you think fits it.  When you don't agree with something you automatically reduce someone to a  POLITICAL DEFINITION of LIBERAL.
> 
> This is you "
> "*So yes, me and others are going to perceive your 'freedom' rhetoric to disclude jails and actions without recourse.
> Again; substance to show you line of freedom thinking is rather embellished and liberal. You are on the lunatic fringe with this*"
> 
> This is me
> 
> But you don't read this. You just go straight political and define someone as LIBERAL
> And this is point I'm making. You even proved my point by your statement when you bring this statement.  "No recourse when someone wrongs"
> 
> Spend less time trying put people in to Political Drama character boxes.


So you are embarrassed that you are a liberal? I am confused. 

Seriously though, how is saying a statement is rather embellished and liberal have anything to do with politics? You are the one jumping to the political spectrum, taking something out of context and obviously getting your feelings hurt. Weird.

As the old saying goes; "If you cannot take the heat...".


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Current results speak for themselves:
> 
> Checking quickly this morning, Taiwan has an infection rate of about .002% and a mortality rate of about 1.1%.  That's based on my quick math with rounded numbers, so please feel free to double check my numbers.  Similarly, New York State has an infection rate of close to 3% and a mortality rate of almost 6%.  So, far less population density, yet three times the infection rate per capita, and six times the morbidity.  That's alarming.
> 
> View attachment 23315
> View attachment 23316
> 
> South Dakota has a population of about 885,000 people, living on 77k sq. miles.  That's 11.3 square miles per person.  Here's what they look like this morning:
> 
> View attachment 23317
> 
> That's an infection rate of about 7.8%.  Their morbidity is surprisingly low.  I'm not sure if that's good news or not (hopefully it is).  I'm not sure they will be able to sustain those low death rates.  It doesn't appear so, considering they reported 30 deaths just yesterday.


To clarify for you and @Bruce7 , I was saying Taiwan is quite small in size. 

Taiwan is about 3.4 times smaller than *New York*.
*New York* is approximately 122,283 sq km, while Taiwan is approximately 35,980 sq km, making Taiwan 29.42% the size of *New York*.

I made no reference to infection or mortality rates.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> In a poker game, that's not much.  Doesn't sound like much... such a small number.  However, these percentages, and even fractions of percentages, are exceedingly important when they represent actual lives.
> 
> In the USA, we have somewhere in the area of 11.5 million cases with 250k deaths.  That's a death rate of just north of 2%, not even considering the number of people who are admitted to the ICU who experience serious symptoms and survive.  We're hitting about 170k new cases reported every day, with ICUs filling to capacity, and are approaching 2k deaths per day.
> 
> We have a total population of about 330 million people.  That leaves, one, two, add a few... over 315 million remaining who could become infected, and as the rate of infection is exponential, we could get there pretty quickly.  2% of 315 million is 6,300,000 people who could die if infected.  If a vaccination could reduce the infection rate by 95%, we're talking potential risk for about 285,000,000 people mitigated and reducing the pool of people who could become infected to a literal fraction of the population.  And that's how herd immunity comes into play safely.
> 
> And for what it's worth, the difference between 1% and .1% in a population as large as in the USA represents a lot of people.  I mean .1% of 330 million people is still 3.3 million people.


Quoting published numbers are easy. If only the number were reliable. But run with it if you wish. 
I cannot fathom how complex our country has made this and the reasons are sickening. Incentivised (yea, I know it is not a proper word) , weaponized, leveraged; all the nasty descriptors of your choosing but non the less true.   
It is relative easy to find death statistics for the years or months prior to 2020. But just try to find gross numbers for 2020, then by month, then by COD. Very, very difficult, closer to impossible. And every source you find has an accuracy disclaimer regarding Covid-19. Just disgusting. Are people dying from pneumonia, flu, even colds, just like every other year? Sure but try to find those stats. Impossible. A lot of dark places I choose not to venture in to. 
This thing is not total BS by no stretch but is damn sure has a lot in there. 
So go ahead and pile on; I have big shoulders and some of you seriously need to wake up.


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> well the uk deaths from the virus reached irs peak last month, but the total deaths in the uk was only eight more than last october, so somethibg is very wrong some where with the figures


It would be nice to find accurate number for 2020 deaths in the US.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> sympoms like dieing,


didn't realize that was a symptom.  I won't pick on you for "dieing"


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> So you are embarrassed that you are a liberal? I am confused.


I'm not a liberal.  Never have been one.  I keep telling you that. but you don't listen and yes you are confused


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not a liberal.  Never have been one.  I keep telling you that. but you don't listen and yes you are confused


I get that. I understand that from jump. You are the one that took the use of the word 'liberal' so out of context and offensive. I am not at all liberal but I am not offended by someone who rationally is. That just seems harder and harder to find theses days. I just hope some conservatives don't start acting the same way. Get the hint?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

So there seems to be an unnecessary argument going on here, which hopefully my interjection is helpful rather than pointlessly inserting myself. 

I think the confusion is misinterpreting what jowga initially said. He was saying that any law takes away freedom. He wasn't making a value statement about that. I think we can all agree it's a good thing we're not free to murder anyone that we want. But that is a freedom we don't have. That opens a whole other can of worms involving freedom to vs. freedom from but too political to discuss on this forum.

I think, dv made the assumption from that that he was saying that lack of freedom is a bad thing, and attributed it to being 'beyond liberal', not realizing jowga wasn't supporting this idea of anarchy and just stating that restrictions do exist in the US. If anything, he seems to be supporting those restrictions in regards to his response to job. 

But then jowga saw the liberal thing and assumed dv's response was the result of making an assumption on jowga's values based on the belief that he's liberal.

And yet both of you seem to agree restrictions are needed. And seems to be very off-track from the original point.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> didn't realize that was a symptom.  I won't pick on you for "dieing"


drowning on your own fluid, asphyxiation,  is a symptom,  no symptoms,  no asphyxiation,  no death,


----------



## JowGaWolf

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So there seems to be an unnecessary argument going on here, which hopefully my interjection is helpful rather than pointlessly inserting myself.
> 
> I think the confusion is misinterpreting what jowga initially said. He was saying that any law takes away freedom. He wasn't making a value statement about that. I think we can all agree it's a good thing we're not free to murder anyone that we want. But that is a freedom we don't have. That opens a whole other can of worms involving freedom to vs. freedom from but too political to discuss on this forum.
> 
> I think, dv made the assumption from that that he was saying that lack of freedom is a bad thing, and attributed it to being 'beyond liberal', not realizing jowga wasn't supporting this idea of anarchy and just stating that restrictions do exist in the US. If anything, he seems to be supporting those restrictions in regards to his response to job.
> 
> But then jowga saw the liberal thing and assumed dv's response was the result of making an assumption on jowga's values based on the belief that he's liberal.
> 
> And yet both of you seem to agree restrictions are needed. And seems to be very off-track from the original point.


That's correct


----------



## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So there seems to be an unnecessary argument going on here, which hopefully my interjection is helpful rather than pointlessly inserting myself.
> 
> I think the confusion is misinterpreting what jowga initially said. He was saying that any law takes away freedom. He wasn't making a value statement about that. I think we can all agree it's a good thing we're not free to murder anyone that we want. But that is a freedom we don't have. That opens a whole other can of worms involving freedom to vs. freedom from but too political to discuss on this forum.
> 
> I think, dv made the assumption from that that he was saying that lack of freedom is a bad thing, and attributed it to being 'beyond liberal', not realizing jowga wasn't supporting this idea of anarchy and just stating that restrictions do exist in the US. If anything, he seems to be supporting those restrictions in regards to his response to job.
> 
> But then jowga saw the liberal thing and assumed dv's response was the result of making an assumption on jowga's values based on the belief that he's liberal.
> 
> And yet both of you seem to agree restrictions are needed. And seems to be very off-track from the original point.


Extremists can only see two categories of people:  those who agree with them and everyone else.  It's no surprise to me that when one's view of conservatism is rigid and severe, everyone else will appear to be a liberal.  It's all relative.  Ronald Reagan was a liberal by today's measure.


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> drowning on your own fluid, asphyxiation,  is a symptom,  no symptoms,  no asphyxiation,  no death,


If language matters, that's actually a cause of death, not to be confused with manner of death, which can be natural, accident, suicide, homicide, or undetermined.

You've created a causal relationship in your post, but having a cause/effect relationship doesn't make two things the same.  When I eat bananas, I get the rumble tummy every time.  Then I fart, and then my family gets upset because it stinks.  This is a predictable and reliable cause and effect relationship.  Even though this is reliable, the banana doesn't suddenly become the fart, and their reaction to my fart does not become my fart (or a banana), just because it happens every time.  The banana and the fart exist independently of the reaction.


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> It would be nice to find accurate number for 2020 deaths in the US.



If you do not wish to believe the total number of deaths that is your right.
You believe the numbers are to high and I believe the numbers they are to low.

A number we can agree on is hospitalization.
You can not argue about whether a hospital is full or not.
Use the hospitalization numbers as an indicator as how bad the virus is hurting Americans.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> If language matters, that's actually a cause of death, not to be confused with manner of death, which can be natural, accident, suicide, homicide, or undetermined.
> 
> You've created a causal relationship in your post, but having a cause/effect relationship doesn't make two things the same.  When I eat bananas, I get the rumble tummy every time.  Then I fart, and then my family gets upset because it stinks.  This is a predictable and reliable cause and effect relationship.  Even though this is reliable, the banana doesn't suddenly become the fart, and their reaction to my fart does not become my fart (or a banana), just because it happens every time.  The banana and the fart exist independently of the reaction.


it depends when you plug into the issue

if you find someone dead of covid then that definitely a symptom of having covid

if you catch them just before death then slow asphyxiation id the main symptom, then they die and death is once again a symptom

nb, the banana does indeed become the fart, at least part of it does, thats where farts originate from, digested food


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> If you do not wish to believe the total number of deaths that is your right.
> You believe the numbers are to high and I believe the numbers they are to low.
> 
> A number we can agree on is hospitalization.
> You can not argue about whether a hospital is full or not.
> Use the hospitalization numbers as an indicator as how bad the virus is hurting Americans.


hospital are never full, they can always fit a few more in if they tried, then tend to run out of beds, but buy a few beds and they are not full again


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Extremists can only see two categories of people:  those who agree with them and everyone else.  It's no surprise to me that when one's view of conservatism is rigid and severe, everyone else will appear to be a liberal.  It's all relative.  Ronald Reagan was a liberal by today's measure.


BUT THAT CLASSIFICATION DOES SEEM TO CAPTURE YOU AS WELL


----------



## Bruce7

IMO Texas especially Houston has the best hospitals in the country.
We also have most infections than any other state.
We also have the most recovered from covid.
Our death rate per million people is one of the best.
Had our hospital have not been so good, our number of dead would have been more like New York.

This is why hospitalization rate is a better indicator as to how we are doing.


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> hospital are never full, they can always fit a few more in if they tried, then tend to run out of beds, but buy a few beds and they are not full again


you may find reading about population limits and exponential growth interesting.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> IMO Texas especially Houston has the best hospitals in the country.
> We also have most infections than any other state.
> We also have the most recovered from covid.
> Our death rate per million people is one of the best.
> Had our hospital have not been so good, our number of dead would have been more like New York.
> 
> This is why hospitalization rate is a better indicator as to how we are doing.


WELL IF YOUVE HAD THE MOST CASES, YOUR ALSO LIKELY TO HAVE THE MOST RECOVERED 

most people recover all on their own


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> you may find reading about population limits and exponential growth interesting.


hospital are deemed full when there are no beds left, they are clearly not full at that point


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> WELL IF YOUVE HAD THE MOST CASES, YOUR ALSO LIKELY TO HAVE THE MOST RECOVERED
> 
> most people recover all on their own



They do not let people in the hospital unless you are very sick, mostly based on your O2  level. Basically people who need Oxygen to live.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> you may find reading about population limits and exponential growth interesting.



thr UK govenment dealt with this issue by buying a lot of beds and putting them in exhibition halls,  7 in total, so far non of them have been used, because the hospitals never filled up, mostly as they cancelled all non essential procedures, its just about the only sensible thing they have done so far, even if they havent been needed so far


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> They do not let people in the hospital unless you are very sick, mostly based on your O2  level. Basically people who need Oxygen to live.


 yiou said the most recovered from covid, that is not at all dependent on hospital admissions for 90 odd % of those infected

 even then more cases will result in more recovered in hospital as well


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> They do not let people in the hospital unless you are very sick, mostly based on your O2  level. Basically people who need Oxygen to live.


NB every one needs oxygen to live


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> hospital are deemed full when there are no beds left, they are clearly not full at that point


did you take my advice?  If you did, I think it would help you understand how short sighted your statements are.

I originally said "misguided" but short sighted is more accurate.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> did you take my advice?  If you did, I think it would help you understand how short sighted your statements are.
> 
> I originally said "misguided" but short sighted is more accurate.


 no mate, i know all i need, I seldom take advice of extremists, try actually disagreeing in a cogent manner is stead of the passive aggressive manner you've got,

put more beds in, you can house more people, that is clearly a fact, do you have any thing to refute that ? even the uk government caught on to that one as above


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> no mate, i know all i need, I seldom take advice of extremists, try actually disagreeing in a cogent manner is stead of the passive aggressive manner you've got,
> 
> put more beds in, you can house more people, that is clearly a fact, do you have any thing to refute that ? even the uk government caught on to that one as above


Not trying to be passive aggressive.  I just don't have the bandwidth right now to put more into explaining things to you than you put into understanding it.  It's cool, but I'm just going to count on you to do some of the heavy lifting.  Or not.  It's fine with me if you don't. 

For example, if you looked into population limits and exponential growth, you'd understand that simply adding beds in a period of exponential growth is short sighted.  It's a pretty straight forward point, so I think if you want to understand it, you could.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Not trying to be passive aggressive.  I just don't have the bandwidth right now to put more into explaining things to you than you put into understanding it.  It's cool, but I'm just going to count on you to do some of the heavy lifting.  Or not.  It's fine with me if you don't.
> 
> For example, if you looked into population limits and exponential growth, you'd understand that simply adding beds in a period of exponential growth is short sighted.  It's a pretty straight forward point, so I think if you want to understand it, you could.


i didnt say " simply add beds" i said add beds to provied a bed for all the sick people, that isnt short sighted its absolutly essential ..., if you also have to add otherthings thats fine, but first you need beds


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Not trying to be passive aggressive.  I just don't have the bandwidth right now to put more into explaining things to you than you put into understanding it.  It's cool, but I'm just going to count on you to do some of the heavy lifting.  Or not.  It's fine with me if you don't.
> 
> For example, if you looked into population limits and exponential growth, you'd understand that simply adding beds in a period of exponential growth is short sighted.  It's a pretty straight forward point, so I think if you want to understand it, you could.


----------



## Steve

LOL.  Funny sign.  But what really cracks me up is that's a terrible photoshop of this image:


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> LOL.  Funny sign.  But what really cracks me up is that's a terrible photoshop of this image:
> 
> View attachment 23320


but it needed we will, we will ,,,,,mock you,,, at the end to be really funny


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> Extremists can only see two categories of people:  those who agree with them and everyone else.  It's no surprise to me that when one's view of conservatism is rigid and severe, everyone else will appear to be a liberal.  It's all relative.  Ronald Reagan was a liberal by today's measure.


It's crazy how that is. It's has basically turned into a movement of  "Who can be more."   When a Bill says he's more "A" then Jan says she's "AA", then Bill follows up with he's "AAA".  stuff like that is a fast track to insanity.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> If you do not wish to believe the total number of deaths that is your right.
> You believe the numbers are to high and I believe the numbers they are to low.
> 
> A number we can agree on is hospitalization.
> You can not argue about whether a hospital is full or not.
> Use the hospitalization numbers as an indicator as how bad the virus is hurting Americans.



Like I said, I do believe this thing is real. And a lot of people are suffering because of it. But I challenge you to parse out the stats for death from Covid-19, the cold, flu, pneumonia and such. It cannot be accurately done. 
There is a Great deal of fear mongering that is understandably encouraging people to go to the hospital. I have no idea how you reconcile facts like this into meaningful data. 

Today I was at a funeral for a 79 year old cousin of my wife. She had advance heart and lung disease and had been in and out of the hospital for years, on the brink of death for as long. Her COD was ruled Covid-19. Naturally no one can say she did not have the virus. But it is quite backwards to say the virus was the COD. 
Conversely, another cousin of my wife who lived with the deceased was at the funeral home. She is 84 years old and just recovered from the virus. Said she would not have known she had it had she not been tested. She felt fine the whole time. And her health status is about as bad as the deceased.
Go figure.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Extremists can only see two categories of people


It is good to see you have a health dose of self-realization.
I acknowledged I am a conservative. Never made any secret of the fact. And what, this makes me a bad person in your eyes? Would be no surprise at all to find this to be true. But like I have said many times before, as usual you are consistent with your diatribe.  
Again, I will clarify the use of the word liberal was as a description of Jowga's comments. Never did I say he was a liberal or that being a Liberal is explicitly a bad thing. I had no idea of his political position until he mentioned it. And as it turned out it is as a conservative. So you see, I don't give two sheet's what party a person is relative to a conversation like the one Jowga and I were having. Which you felt compelled to insert yourself into.  
As usual you are reading into someone else's comments what you wish to hear. A really dixk move you seem to enjoy doing a Lot. So who is the one being rigid and severe here?
I imagine by your standard every conservative is rigid and severe.
But like I said earlier, run with it if you wish. Astounds me how much some people enjoy creating petty drama.


----------



## Steve

Welp, looks like Don Jr is positive.  Now I guess we will learn whether cocaine is an effective treatment.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> Welp, looks like Don Jr is positive.  Now I guess we will learn whether cocaine is an effective treatment.


Giuliani's son has it to.  They think he may have exposed Giuliani's entire legal team to it.  Time will tell


----------



## Buka

Bruce7 said:


> IMO Texas especially Houston has the best hospitals in the country.
> We also have most infections than any other state.
> We also have the most recovered from covid.
> Our death rate per million people is one of the best.
> Had our hospital have not been so good, our number of dead would have been more like New York.
> 
> This is why hospitalization rate is a better indicator as to how we are doing.



I believe the medical field says Boston has the best hospitals in the country.

No big whoop, just saying.


----------



## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> It is good to see you have a health dose of self-realization.
> I acknowledged I am a conservative. Never made any secret of the fact. And what, this makes me a bad person in your eyes? Would be no surprise at all to find this to be true. But like I have said many times before, as usual you are consistent with your diatribe.
> Again, I will clarify the use of the word liberal was as a description of Jowga's comments. Never did I say he was a liberal or that being a Liberal is explicitly a bad thing. I had no idea of his political position until he mentioned it. And as it turned out it is as a conservative. So you see, I don't give two sheet's what party a person is relative to a conversation like the one Jowga and I were having. Which you felt compelled to insert yourself into.
> As usual you are reading into someone else's comments what you wish to hear. A really dixk move you seem to enjoy doing a Lot. So who is the one being rigid and severe here?
> I imagine by your standard every conservative is rigid and severe.
> But like I said earlier, run with it if you wish. Astounds me how much some people enjoy creating petty drama.



Saying you are a conservative means you don't understand the situation.

Because the all encompassing term of conservative is basically not a definition of anything.

So a conservative in one area might be liberal in another a conservative in one country might be liberal in another. Although people like to think they have the rule book for conservative/liberal. They don't they are making things up.

For example Pro monarchy is a conservative trait. Exept in America where it isn't. Pro gun is a conservative trait Exept everywhere but America where it isn't.


----------



## drop bear

Regarding freedom.

Ok. Consider road rules and stuff. If we look at the greater effects of road rules and car safety standards and all the other things that go in to getting you from point A to point B in a car. There is a greater net effect of freedom created.

People get to their destination quicker, faster, easier and safer because of limitations placed on travel. If we tested freedom by some pretty intuitive concepts like freedom to travel. Freedom of information. The ability to change professions. The ability to vote or protest or to participate in government decisions. And those sorts of things. Having roads that work because we don't allow some guy to drive a tank over cars in peak hour traffic really contributes to that.

But ideologically that is an attack on freedom because the concept is that everyone should be able to do what they want and screw the consequences.

And why ideological freedom is a terrible farce and mostly used by powerful people to screw less powerful.

If I own a tank then I should have the freedom to drive wherever I want. If I own a Honda civic then Mabye we should have a few rules in place.

Same with with covid,  sensible rules will create greater freedom for everyone as a net result but ideological freedom will just screw people who are in certain age brackets or unable economically to protect themselves.

So for example. I don't wear a mask. I don't have a restriction on gathering i don't have much of a restriction on travel. And this is because we basically don't have a covid problem.

So I also don't run the risk of getting sick and dying and don't run the risk of anyone else getting sick or dying. And so they have more freedom there as well.

But we don't have covid because we locked down hard and stuck to it. So we were ideologically denied our freedoms but as a practical effect have more freedom.


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> Saying you are a conservative means you don't understand the situation.
> 
> Because the all encompassing term of conservative is basically not a definition of anything.
> 
> So a conservative in one area might be liberal in another a conservative in one country might be liberal in another. Although people like to think they have the rule book for conservative/liberal. They don't they are making things up.
> 
> For example Pro monarchy is a conservative trait. Exept in America where it isn't. Pro gun is a conservative trait Exept everywhere but America where it isn't.



Fully, fully agree. I did not start the liberal/conservative discussion but @Steve seems to want to keep it going and create and elevate tension.
For me, my political affiliation does not define me a great deal. I make most decisions like this based on my business/economic success or failure and not so much on an individual basis. Manufacturing, engineering, construction, and farming build the country and keep it going and fed. These sectors employ over 60% of the country. This resonates with me and just makes sense. From my intimate interaction with decision makers in theses industries I understand and agree with the train of thought which is almost completely conservative in political affiliation. This completely jives with building industry, which is largely the kind of work I do. I hope this explains my logic a little. 

But again, this is only one qualifier of a person which doesn't automatically make them a great humanitarian or conversely a total dixk. Those dynamics go much deeper than conservative or liberal and would be for another conversation.  

Another industry I am deeply involved in is the legal system. Since my wife is an attorney and I provide legal counsel quite often I see it a lot. And I see how completely different this industry and thus the mentality works. Very bureaucratic and difficult to follow and find the concrete result, by design. Counterintuitive more often than not so a person has to learn how to navigate a Lot of BS. Layer upon layer of red tape. To what end is often the hardest thing for figure out. 
A completely different mentality.
So I see and am involved in both extremes. Can drive me crazy sometimes.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Regarding freedom.
> 
> Ok. Consider road rules and stuff. If we look at the greater effects of road rules and car safety standards and all the other things that go in to getting you from point A to point B in a car. There is a greater net effect of freedom created.
> 
> People get to their destination quicker, faster, easier and safer because of limitations placed on travel. If we tested freedom by some pretty intuitive concepts like freedom to travel. Freedom of information. The ability to change professions. The ability to vote or protest or to participate in government decisions. And those sorts of things. Having roads that work because we don't allow some guy to drive a tank over cars in peak hour traffic really contributes to that.
> 
> But ideologically that is an attack on freedom because the concept is that everyone should be able to do what they want and screw the consequences.
> 
> And why ideological freedom is a terrible farce and mostly used by powerful people to screw less powerful.
> 
> If I own a tank then I should have the freedom to drive wherever I want. If I own a Honda civic then Mabye we should have a few rules in place.
> 
> Same with with covid,  sensible rules will create greater freedom for everyone as a net result but ideological freedom will just screw people who are in certain age brackets or unable economically to protect themselves.
> 
> So for example. I don't wear a mask. I don't have a restriction on gathering i don't have much of a restriction on travel. And this is because we basically don't have a covid problem.
> 
> So I also don't run the risk of getting sick and dying and don't run the risk of anyone else getting sick or dying. And so they have more freedom there as well.
> 
> But we don't have covid because we locked down hard and stuck to it. So we were ideologically denied our freedoms but as a practical effect have more freedom.


freedom has always been temper by rules of society, you have absolute freedom to go and live some where else where the rules suit yoy better, people generaly dont want to move to a third world hell hole, so they give up some freedom for economic advatage/security

thats the nature of the social contract, you allow others to rule, in returm they look after you, sort of

the problem with the covid rules are they are not looking after your economic and security needs. the rules are not at all proportionate to the riskin the amount of freedom they remove.

ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering


I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end.  This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions.  All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of.  But that state had a lot of push back too.  The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end.  This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions.  All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of.  But that state had a lot of push back too.  The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future
> 
> View attachment 23325


Agreed.  I really do not understand how some folks are so morally bankrupt that they would politicize this situation.  And yet we have zealots who are so extreme that conservatives and liberals alike condemn them.  

As with most things, they decry any efforts that inconvenience them.  And when it affects them personally, they come around and wonder why we aren't doing enough.


----------



## mograph

jobo said:


> ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life


What would that evidence look like?


----------



## jobo

mograph said:


> What would that evidence look like?


it would look a bit sciency, include some data , some maths perhaps a graph or two, that sort of thing, have you got any such ?


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end.  This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions.  All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of.  But that state had a lot of push back too.  The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future
> 
> View attachment 23325


 DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy map AnD your opinion


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> Like I said, I do believe this thing is real. And a lot of people are suffering because of it. But I challenge you to parse out the stats for death from Covid-19, the cold, flu, pneumonia and such. It cannot be accurately done.
> There is a Great deal of fear mongering that is understandably encouraging people to go to the hospital. I have no idea how you reconcile facts like this into meaningful data.
> 
> Today I was at a funeral for a 79 year old cousin of my wife. She had advance heart and lung disease and had been in and out of the hospital for years, on the brink of death for as long. Her COD was ruled Covid-19. Naturally no one can say she did not have the virus. But it is quite backwards to say the virus was the COD.
> Conversely, another cousin of my wife who lived with the deceased was at the funeral home. She is 84 years old and just recovered from the virus. Said she would not have known she had it had she not been tested. She felt fine the whole time. And her health status is about as bad as the deceased.
> Go figure.



Facts:
In most of the country it is very hard to get into a hospital.
a) Many people with covid are not allow in the hospital unless their O2 levels are low.
b) Many people without covid who would normally be allow in the hospital are not allow.
c) Most hospitals are near capacity.
d) Doctors are having to make hard decisions as to who is sick enough to be in the hospital,
Knowing that a mistake may cost someone their life.
e) Doctors and nurse are begging people to wear mask and social distance.

It is our duty as Americans to do everything possible to slow the spread of the virus, 
So Doctors and Nurses can keep us alive.

Here is a good math problem you may find interesting.
Take the number of deaths of people over 65 in 2020 then subtract the number number of deaths of people over 65 in 2019.
Then add that number to the covid deaths below 65.


----------



## Steve

mograph said:


> What would that evidence look like?


In situations like this, it’s pretty easy to see the evidence in the results.  Look at similar cases where lockdowns have occurred and where they haven’t, and compare.  Look at the same place before, during, and after lockdowns.  There is no question that things like a lockdown are effective at slowing the spread of the virus, though there are very legitimate debates to be had about the economic impact.


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> it would look a bit sciency, include some data , some maths perhaps a graph or two, that sort of thing, have you got any such ?


It’s readily available if you’d just take some time.  You’re a blindfolded person asking for evidence of light.  Just take the blindfold off and it’s easy to see.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy map AnD your opinion


I agree.  I think you should go get the Data and prove my opinion wrong.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf said:


> I live in the U.S. and all one has to do is mark the chart dates of when the restrictions began and when they end.  This way you can see how many people died during restrictions and how many people died without restrictions.  All I know is that the places that had fewest restrictions are now in the Burnt Red. With the exception of one state that I know of.  But that state had a lot of push back too.  The U.S. is going to be an excellent case study for the future
> 
> View attachment 23325


Forgot to post the source:  Coronavirus Is Surging: How Severe Is Your State's Outbreak?

The data that was used on that page comes from John Hopkins University.  "Johns Hopkins University's ranking in the 2021 edition of Best Colleges is National Universities, #9."  This is the link to the medical school where this data comes from.  https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> It’s readily available if you’d just take some time.  You’re a blindfolded person asking for evidence of light.  Just take the blindfold off and it’s easy to see.


no its isnt other wise one of you fear mongers would p[ost it

nb i didnt6 ask for evidence, i said ive seen non,, but then nether have you or anyone else for that matter


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree.  I think you should go get the Data and prove my opinion wrong.


but your opinion is always wrong on everything, its like you do it on purpose


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> but your opinion is always wrong on everything, its like you do it on purpose


DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy opinion

You'll need to show some data on this one.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> DATA,,,,,,,,,,,, not a fuzzy opinion
> 
> You'll need to show some data on this one.


ok the data shows that out of the last 100 opinions youve honoured us with 100% have been misguided to the point of stupidity

heres a pie chart

white shows all the times you been wrong, blue all the times you were correct


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> Facts:
> In most of the country it is very hard to get into a hospital.
> a) Many people with covid are not allow in the hospital unless their O2 levels are low.
> b) Many people without covid who would normally be allow in the hospital are not allow.
> c) Most hospitals are near capacity.
> d) Doctors are having to make hard decisions as to who is sick enough to be in the hospital,
> Knowing that a mistake may cost someone their life.
> e) Doctors and nurse are begging people to wear mask and social distance.
> 
> It is our duty as Americans to do everything possible to slow the spread of the virus,
> So Doctors and Nurses can keep us alive.
> 
> Here is a good math problem you may find interesting.
> Take the number of deaths of people over 65 in 2020 then subtract the number number of deaths of people over 65 in 2019.
> Then add that number to the covid deaths below 65.


I am working and could not quickly find info for 2019 but I did find an article from AARP that stated Flu related deaths were on the rise and over 12,000 died from the flu in 2018. 
This is the kind of data that is impossible to find for 2020. 
I fully believe the quandary’s you mention for doctors and nurses. It is a very tough nut.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> In situations like this, it’s pretty easy to see the evidence in the results.  Look at similar cases where lockdowns have occurred and where they haven’t, and compare.  Look at the same place before, during, and after lockdowns.  There is no question that things like a lockdown are effective at slowing the spread of the virus, though there are very legitimate debates to be had about the economic impact.


yes i said that, they seem effective at slowing down the rate of infection,,, but thats not the same as saving lives, if people just die a few months later, because its only been SLOWED, there still dead


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> ok the data shows that out of the last 100 opinions youve honoured us with 100% have been misguided to the point of stupidity
> 
> heres a pie chart
> 
> white shows all the times you been wrong, blue all the times you were correct


 Sir... Sir... I'm gonna need you to hop back in your car 






and show me your Pie Chart  and Data Sir.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Sir... Sir... I'm gonna need you to hop back in your car
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and show me your Pie Chart  and Data Sir.


god you are dim

the pie chart is in white for all the times youve been wrong and blue for if you were correct

here it is again


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> yes i said that, they seem effective at slowing down the rate of infection,,, but thats not the same as saving lives, if people just die a few months later, because its only been SLOWED, there still dead



You make the assumption that the same number of people are destined to die from the virus which isn't true.   A rate of 500 deaths a month for 24 months is not the same as 500 deaths a day.   You literally only have to look at the number of people who have died between January and November.  The places with fewer deaths had a slower rate of death than the U.S so the totals for January through November are lower because they SLOWED the number of deaths over a span of time.  The same amount of people didn't die in the same about of time, from the same virus..


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> god you are dim
> 
> the pie chart is in white for all the times youve been wrong and blue for if you were correct
> 
> here it is again


Now Sir... Calm down. now.   I need to get back in your car 





and show me your Pie Chart and Data Sir.   A blank sheet is the absence of data sir which is why you can't hand me a blank drivers license sir.  Now if you can't show me your Pie Chart and data sir. I'm gonna have call some of my boys and you WILL spend time in corner.


----------



## Dirty Dog

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
The insults, name calling, and generally nastiness needs to stop, otherwise people will find themselves on vacation from MT.

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> freedom has always been temper by rules of society, you have absolute freedom to go and live some where else where the rules suit yoy better, people generaly dont want to move to a third world hell hole, so they give up some freedom for economic advatage/security
> 
> thats the nature of the social contract, you allow others to rule, in returm they look after you, sort of
> 
> the problem with the covid rules are they are not looking after your economic and security needs. the rules are not at all proportionate to the riskin the amount of freedom they remove.
> 
> ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering



Our results have been good. And we don't have many restrictions now because we don't have the covid issue to warrant it.

Victoria was the worst hit had the most cases, had the most deaths. And had the hardest lockdown.

Now there are no new cases. In Victoria.




Obviously the states that don't have covid. Don't have covid deaths.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Our results have been good. And we don't have many restrictions now because we don't have the covid issue to warrant it.
> 
> Victoria was the worst hit had the most cases, had the most deaths. And had the hardest lockdown.
> 
> Now there are no new cases. In Victoria.
> View attachment 23326
> 
> Obviously the states that don't have covid. Don't have covid deaths.


if the stare with the hardest lock down, most cases had that a very good indexation that lock downs dont work ?


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> if the stare with the hardest lock down, most cases had that a very good indexation that lock downs dont work ?



No. Victoria screwed its first lockdown. Publicly and obviously and got smashed. And so had to go in to a second one.

They quarantined people in a hotel with the worlds dodgiest security firm they could find to supervise them.

So acting like Muppets during a lockdown is the deciding factor as to whether lockdowns work.

Victoria hotel quarantine failures 'responsible' for Covid second wave and 768 deaths, inquiry told

There is a whole bunch of talky talk about it in that link but basically casual security guard shirt fillers got employed to do this job and started shagging the quarantinenies and letting them out for bribes.


----------



## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Our results have been good. And we don't have many restrictions now because we don't have the covid issue to warrant it.
> 
> Victoria was the worst hit had the most cases, had the most deaths. And had the hardest lockdown.
> 
> Now there are no new cases. In Victoria.
> View attachment 23326
> 
> Obviously the states that don't have covid. Don't have covid deaths.


That looks impressive.  Too bad Victoria didn't get it right the first time.


----------



## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> That looks impressive.  Too bad Victoria didn't get it right the first time.



I just read on reddit (so take that with a grain of salt) the longest lockdown in the world.

It was a harsh hard measure and nobody liked it. 

A timeline of the restrictions.
Victoria announces Melbourne to return to lockdown – as it happened | Coronavirus | The Guardian


----------



## JowGaWolf

Sweden's Herd Immunity Theory what it is now






What it they thought.





What the plan is now.  Sounds like "Herd Immunity is a Bust"


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> ive seen no evidence that the various lock down measures have saved even a single life, the best they do is slow down the spread, the same number of people will die, just over a longer time period. so its all a pointless exercise in butt covering



Our state's new daily cases were escalating quite rapidly, and we went into quite a hard lockdown and mandatory masks. Reached a peak of 725 new daily cases and dozens of deaths daily. The last consecutive 23 days we've had zero new cases, and zero deaths. It's almost as though we've wiped out majority of traces of covid in our state as a result.

Many, many potential lives saved. You don't think slowing down the amount of people infected and dying until a vaccine comes makes a difference? The same number of people WON'T die.

If we do it and keep things open safely (which pretty much all industries here are back open, economy will be back and booming), I'd say this would absolutely be the way to go until a vaccine comes.


----------



## _Simon_

mograph said:


> What would that evidence look like?


It's okay I've provided some above , have a feeling it will be thoroughly rejected for god knows what reason.


----------



## _Simon_

drop bear said:


> Our results have been good. And we don't have many restrictions now because we don't have the covid issue to warrant it.
> 
> Victoria was the worst hit had the most cases, had the most deaths. And had the hardest lockdown.
> 
> Now there are no new cases. In Victoria.
> View attachment 23326
> 
> Obviously the states that don't have covid. Don't have covid deaths.


Yep, for all the haters of the restrictions over here, us Victorians smashed it! Honestly feels really bizarre not having any new cases for ages..


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Our state's new daily cases were escalating quite rapidly, and we went into quite a hard lockdown and mandatory masks. Reached a peak of 725 new daily cases and dozens of deaths daily. The last consecutive 23 days we've had zero new cases, and zero deaths. It's almost as though we've wiped out majority of traces of covid in our state as a result.
> 
> Many, many potential lives saved. You don't think slowing down the amount of people infected and dying until a vaccine comes makes a difference? The same number of people WON'T die.
> 
> If we do it and keep things open safely (which pretty much all industries here are back open, economy will be back and booming), I'd say this would absolutely be the way to go until a vaccine comes.


potential lives,? what does that mean, 

how many were actually saved, 

that was the question?


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> potential lives,? what does that mean,
> 
> how many were actually saved,
> 
> that was the question?


True, that sounds weird XD. Potential deaths avoided more like it!

Well it's a hypothetical as to how many would be saved, so unanswerable.

You seem to stating that even if we did a lockdown to slow the virus, it would only slow the cases and deaths eventually occurring, that is, that they would die anyway from it, just later.

I'm saying slowing the whole thing down (and potentially even wiping the virus out of the community), inching forward and getting that much closer to the time of getting a vaccine, will mean less cases and deaths in the future (and overall).


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> True, that sounds weird XD. Potential deaths avoided more like it!
> 
> Well it's a hypothetical as to how many would be saved, so unanswerable.
> 
> You seem to stating that even if we did a lockdown to slow the virus, it would only slow the cases and deaths eventually occurring, that is, that they would die anyway from it, just later.
> 
> I'm saying slowing the whole thing down (and potentially even wiping the virus out of the community), inching forward and getting that much closer to the time of getting a vaccine, will mean less cases and deaths in the future (and overall).


well the vacine is a red herring, as ive said several times the goal is to vacinate 3% of the worlds population in months, no one kbows how many months, 6,12 20? it will takes years, possibky a decade or more to vacinate the large proportion of the population requored to say youve eeradicated  the deseas4, it took 20 odd years to vqvine the world against small pox and that really was a killer in to the many 100s of milkion.

so inching closer to the vacine may be over optinistic, microning closer is more like it.

in the mean time, they slow it down, you lift the restrictions and it speeds up again.

no lives are being saved, eventually it will have killed all the weak and deaths will stop, that is likely to happen a lot sooner than the vacine
a peophe are seeing is the headline daily death rate, lower that and govenments claim its working, it will just kill the same number a bit slower


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> well the vacine is a red herring, as ive said several times the goal is to vacinate 3% of the worlds population in months, no one kbows how many months, 6,12 20? it will takes years, possibky a decade or more to vacinate the large proportion of the population requored to say youve eeradicated  the deseas4, it took 20 odd years to vqvine the world against small pox and that really was a killer in to the many 100s of milkion.
> 
> so inching closer to the vacine may be over optinistic, microning closer is more like it.
> 
> in the mean time, they slow it down, you lift the restrictions and it speeds up again.
> 
> no lives are being saved, eventually it will have killed all the weak and deaths will stop, that is likely to happen a lot sooner than the vacine


Meh... dunno. I'm no expert on vaccination protocols etc. But I do agree that it will take some time, but who knows how long. Like I said in another post somewhere, I'm uneasy about the vaccine being potentially rushed before we have more information and how it would go long term.

What I'm saying is, getting things to a stable, safe level and maintaining that (as we learn more about the virus too), a 'Covid-normal' is what we've deemed it, is what I'd say the best bet. Until a sure vaccine comes. Of course there'll be outbreaks, but it seems we're learning more and more about the virus and what we can do to prevent its community transmission.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Meh... dunno. I'm no expert on vaccination protocols etc. But I do agree that it will take some time, but who knows how long. Like I said in another post somewhere, I'm uneasy about the vaccine being potentially rushed before we have more information and how it would go long term.
> 
> What I'm saying is, getting things to a stable, safe level and maintaining that (as we learn more about the virus too), a 'Covid-normal' is what we've deemed it, is what I'd say the best bet. Until a sure vaccine comes. Of course there'll be outbreaks, but it seems we're learning more and more about the virus and what we can do to prevent its community transmission.


but commubiry is iyr most valuable asset, 

its nessersary for our physical and mental well being and our economic survival, 

thats what being removed, in return for absolutly nothing but posertive head lines,

vacines only work when you have vacinated 90 odx % of the worlds population, its all about herd immunity not indevidual protection

as ive said before, we have a vacine that claimed to be 90 odd % effective and a disease that has a survival rate of 99%, 

even when they have stated vacinating people, the death rate will stay the same, untill the point that have reached saturation level, so 2010 at a guess, 

we cant survive a 10 year lock down either mentally or economically,


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> but commubiry is iyr most valuable asset,
> 
> its nessersary for our physical and mental well being and our economic survival,
> 
> thats what being removed, in return for absolutly nothing but posertive head lines,
> 
> vacines only work when you have vacinated 90 odx % of the worlds population, its all about herd immunity not indevidual protection
> 
> as ive said before, we have a vacine that claimed to be 90 odd % effective and a disease that has a survival rate of 99%,
> 
> even when they have stated vacinating people, the death rate will stay the same, untill the point that have reached saturation level, so 2010 at a guess,
> 
> we cant survive a 10 year lock down either mentally or economically,



Absolutely. 100%. But using our example, what we did was short term hardship for LONGTERM gain. This isn't a quick fix. We sacrificed a very short period of time (relatively speaking) to get things to stabilise, so NOW we do not have to keep bouncing in and out of lockdowns. THAT was the aim, to avoid the constant in and out of lockdowns. Now we're in a position where we can enjoy community.

And NOW we realise this isn't about the people with the loudest voice. And that it's truly about working together on this. Working through a pandemic is actually bringing us CLOSER together. And that in order to keep everything we've worked so hard for, we have to work together and keep each other safe by following the expertise and health directives.

It takes patience, and surrendering the instant gratification of 'I don't like this lockdown I want it to end now!'. Bigger picture.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Absolutely. 100%. But using our example, what we did was short term hardship for LONGTERM gain. This isn't a quick fix. We sacrificed a very short period of time (relatively speaking) to get things to stabilise, so NOW we do not have to keep bouncing in and out of lockdowns. THAT was the aim, to avoid the constant in and out of lockdowns. Now we're in a position where we can enjoy community.
> 
> And NOW we realise this isn't about the people with the loudest voice. And that it's truly about working together on this. Working through a pandemic is actually bringing us CLOSER together. And that in order to keep everything we've worked so hard for, we have to work together and keep each other safe by following the expertise and health directives.
> 
> It takes patience, and surrendering the instant gratification of 'I don't like this lockdown I want it to end now!'. Bigger picture.


but thatrs my point, there isnt any long term gain, the virus is now endemic, it will return, you live in a very lowly populated country, so things may happen slower

the current estimate in the uk is one in  80 have the virus, thats most of a million people, thats 10, thousands deaths give or take, thats after a 4 month lock down and three weeks into another one, with out the lock down they may have died sooner, but they will soon be dead, so it didnt work in saving their lives

mean while we borrowed 22 billion just in October to try and pay for it all, the chancellor has warned this level of borrowing cant be sustained and it cant, the first victims offfff a government freeze on spending are the old and the weak and the vulnerable, thats the very people who are dieing of covid, the lock down isnt helping them and the government cuts will get them anyway


----------



## dvcochran

I found this site this morning. I am not familiar with it but it seems to do a good job of breaking things down across the globe. 
U.S. Death Rate 1950-2020

Looking at the first graph it is interesting how low and flat it is years 2008-2013. Then it has a steady trajectory year to year going forward.


----------



## elder999

Confused About Masks? Here’s What Scientists Know

"The accumulating research may be imperfect, and it’s still evolving, but the takeaway is simple. Right now, masks are necessary to slow the pandemic."

"Among public health experts, there is near-unanimous endorsement of universal mask mandates to shield people from the virus and slow the pandemic.

“The more people who wear a mask, the more the community is protected and therefore the more you individually benefit,” said Dr. John Brooks, chief medical officer of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Covid-19 response program. “It’s like a herd effect.”"


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> Confused About Masks? Here’s What Scientists Know
> 
> "The accumulating research may be imperfect, and it’s still evolving, but the takeaway is simple. Right now, masks are necessary to slow the pandemic."
> 
> "Among public health experts, there is near-unanimous endorsement of universal mask mandates to shield people from the virus and slow the pandemic.
> 
> “The more people who wear a mask, the more the community is protected and therefore the more you individually benefit,” said Dr. John Brooks, chief medical officer of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Covid-19 response program. “It’s like a herd effect.”"


when you say NEAR unanimous does that mean its not unanimous ?

the thing is being right isnt dependent on how many agree or disagree with you, your either correct or your not, what everyone else thinks is academic

even taken at face value that claims they SLOW the pandemic, not that they will save a single life, in the medium term


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> I found this site this morning. I am not familiar with it but it seems to do a good job of breaking things down across the globe.
> U.S. Death Rate 1950-2020
> 
> Looking at the first graph it is interesting how low and flat it is years 2008-2013. Then it has a steady trajectory year to year going forward.


you really need to put that up against a life expectancy graph to make sence of it

life expectancy increased considerably through out the 20th century, better puclic health, work place safety, vaccinations, much better medical science

the problem is there will come a time when all the people they saved from appearing in the infant mortality rate in the 1950s and 60s all get old and die, so about now on really and so going forwards as the infant mortality rate contained to plunge and others, the death rate circa 70 years klater will keep increasing

that coupled with the changes in life style and diet, which is killing a lot of people in there 50 and 60s and its going to increase


----------



## Flying Crane

elder999 said:


> Confused About Masks? Here’s What Scientists Know
> 
> "The accumulating research may be imperfect, and it’s still evolving, but the takeaway is simple. Right now, masks are necessary to slow the pandemic."
> 
> "Among public health experts, there is near-unanimous endorsement of universal mask mandates to shield people from the virus and slow the pandemic.
> 
> “The more people who wear a mask, the more the community is protected and therefore the more you individually benefit,” said Dr. John Brooks, chief medical officer of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Covid-19 response program. “It’s like a herd effect.”"


The sad thing is that people still need to be told this.  Even without extensive studies and data, this is just plain intuitive, when you have even a very basic understanding of how pathogens are spread.  

Maybe for the sake of the world at large, the US needs to have a huge die-off and Covid is the instrument to get it done.  Agent Smith wasn’t wrong when he said that humans are a virus.  Perhaps the US is the Covid of viruses.  We are a nation of idiots.


----------



## jobo

Flying Crane said:


> The sad thing is that people still need to be told this.  Even without extensive studies and data, this is just plain intuitive, when you have even a very basic understanding of how pathogens are spread.
> 
> Maybe for the sake of the world at large, the US needs to have a huge die-off and Covid is the instrument to get it done.  Agent Smith wasn’t wrong when he said that humans are a virus.  Perhaps the US is the Covid of viruses.  We are a nation of idiots.


so are you admitting there no data ? just your intuition ! ok at least thats clear if a little unsatisfactory

everyone wear a mask flying crane said so

nb viruses are obligate *pathogens*


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I found this site this morning. I am not familiar with it but it seems to do a good job of breaking things down across the globe.
> U.S. Death Rate 1950-2020
> 
> Looking at the first graph it is interesting how low and flat it is years 2008-2013. Then it has a steady trajectory year to year going forward.


That data come from the UN.  The charts that are on those pages are projections and not actual counts.  It's what they thought would happen Pre-Covid.  So I went to the The UN website that it was linked to.

This graph is similar as it tries to predict the death rate.  My guess the steep increase factors covid in.  This is the first time I've seen a predictive chart.  It would be interested in seeing what the median is being affected by.  I would expect that some time before 2030 the numbers would go down.  Source: https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/840


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> the US needs to have a huge die-off and Covid is the instrument to get it done.


I've thought about this too on many levels.  Not just in terms of the U.S. but also in terms of ethnicity.  I've been thinking of things in very different mindsets like.
1. How would a Racist think to be able to benefit from Covid-19
2. How would a Wealthy Person think to be able to benefit from Covid-19
3. How would a enemy nation think to be able to benefit from Covid-19
4. How would a political party think to be able to benefit from Covid-19
5. How would opportunists think to be able to benefit from Covid-19

I took a look at indirect (ways they benefit without doing anything) and direct (ways they actively take advantage of) ways of the benefits to these 5 areas.  I'm actually in the 5 group and currently only able to have indirect benefits provided that I don't die from Covid-19.  There's nothing I've been able to really benefit from as of yet.  But I'm actively looking at real estate, since so many businesses have or are on the brink of closing down. I just haven't been able to take the opportunity yet.

But going through those 5 areas, I came up with some really dark things.  I didn't leave anything out of the realm of possibility no matter how low that possibility may actually be.  It wasn't all dark, but there were some dark stuff in all areas.  A lot of the dark stuff revolved around having a huge die-off.  As an enemy country.  The goal would be to have the virus so wide spread within my enemy's country that starts to infect and kill leadership on all levels.   We can replace people but we can't replace experience and relationships.  This is the best way to weaken an enemy country without directly doing anything.

In ancient times dead cows and bodies were tossed over enemy walls in an effort to spread disease, water supplies were tainted and the practice becomes the same here, with the exception that you don't have to toss bodies and cows, and you don't have to actually do anything to take advantage of a natural epidemic but hope that your enemy is stupid enough to do all the wrong things and make bad decisions on trying to handle the pandemic.  The more the disease spreads in a country due to bad decisions the better.  The bonus would be to have chaos within the country where sides fight against each other.  And the best thing about #3 is that you wouldn't have to lift a finger to make any of this happen.   So far leadership hasn't died yet from Covid-19 which is good thing.   But run through a couple of those scenarios from those 5 groups and you'll eventually hit the darkness.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> That data come from the UN.  The charts that are on those pages are projections and not actual counts.  It's what they thought would happen Pre-Covid.  So I went to the The UN website that it was linked to.
> 
> This graph is similar as it tries to predict the death rate.  My guess the steep increase factors covid in.  This is the first time I've seen a predictive chart.  It would be interested in seeing what the median is being affected by.  I would expect that some time before 2030 the numbers would go down.  Source: https://population.un.org/wpp/Graphs/840
> View attachment 23328


I do not see much difference in the two charts with the exception of the bizarre 60 sample scatter going forward in time. The first chart is accurate and what is neat is that it is interactive giving accurate counts year to year. What seems to be overlooked is how steady and similar the counts have been year to year since the flatline around 2008-2013. 
*Major note*; this includes the count for this year regardless of which chart you use.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> potential lives,? what does that mean,
> 
> how many were actually saved,
> 
> that was the question?



Yeah think 819 deaths in Victoria vs 6 deaths in qld.


----------



## elder999

Trends in County-Level COVID-19 Incidence in Counties With ...


----------



## elder999

Effectiveness of Government Policies in Response to the COVID-19 Outbreak by Theologos Dergiades, Costas Milas, Elias Mossialos, Theodore Panagiotidis :: SSRN


----------



## JowGaWolf

elder999 said:


> Effectiveness of Government Policies in Response to the COVID-19 Outbreak by Theologos Dergiades, Costas Milas, Elias Mossialos, Theodore Panagiotidis :: SSRN


Thanks for both of the links and the time you spent to look for them


----------



## elder999

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks for both of the links and the time you spent to look for them


When someone says "there's no data," well......there's *always* "data."

What does it _mean?_ *That*'s up to the experts in the field.


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> but thatrs my point, there isnt any long term gain, the virus is now endemic, it will return, you live in a very lowly populated country, so things may happen slower
> 
> the current estimate in the uk is one in  80 have the virus, thats most of a million people, thats 10, thousands deaths give or take, thats after a 4 month lock down and three weeks into another one, with out the lock down they may have died sooner, but they will soon be dead, so it didnt work in saving their lives
> 
> mean while we borrowed 22 billion just in October to try and pay for it all, the chancellor has warned this level of borrowing cant be sustained and it cant, the first victims offfff a government freeze on spending are the old and the weak and the vulnerable, thats the very people who are dieing of covid, the lock down isnt helping them and the government cuts will get them anyway


So you can't see how it's a long term gain, of getting numbers to a sustainable level, jumping on those cases that pop up and quarantining them, keeping things at a baseline manageable level until a vaccine comes?

Sounds like you've made up your mind anyway.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> So you can't see how it's a long term gain, of getting numbers to a sustainable level, jumping on those cases that pop up and quarantining them, keeping things at a baseline manageable level until a vaccine comes?
> 
> Sounds like you've made up your mind anyway.


what do you mean by sustainable level,,, ,

its the economics of lock down that isnt sustainable,


----------



## drop bear

_Simon_ said:


> So you can't see how it's a long term gain, of getting numbers to a sustainable level, jumping on those cases that pop up and quarantining them, keeping things at a baseline manageable level until a vaccine comes?
> 
> Sounds like you've made up your mind anyway.



Yeah. We can literally look at state by state comparison. The deaths are not slower they are less.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> what do you mean by sustainable level,,, ,
> 
> its the economics of lock down that isnt sustainable,



It is if you can get rid of covid transmission. Because then you can open the economy back up.

No covid cases means less deaths and an ability to resume normal economic progress.

16 cases in Queensland. Which is apparently a manageable number.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> It is if you can get rid of covid transmission. Because then you can open the economy back up.
> 
> No covid cases means less deaths and an ability to resume normal economic progress.
> 
> 16 cases in Queensland. Which is apparently a manageable number.
> 
> View attachment 23329


well a milkion cases  in the uk, which is also apparently a managable number, which is why i queeried what " sustainable "means, it quite clearly different in different places

dont get to cocky as soon as they remove the lock down it will shoot up again, Australia shut its botder very very quickly, it that that keeping the numbers down, we cant go back in time and change that


----------



## elder999

Lockdowns and COVID-19 Deaths in Scandinavia by Martin J. Conyon, Lerong He, Steen  Thomsen :: SSRN

"We estimate the impact of non-pharmacological interventions (NPIs) on COVID-19 deaths in Scandinavia. We exploit policy variation between Denmark and Norway on the one hand and Sweden on the other. The former deployed relatively more stringent lockdowns, the latter did not. Our difference-in-differences models show that stricter lockdown policies are associated with fewer COVID-19 deaths."


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> Lockdowns and COVID-19 Deaths in Scandinavia by Martin J. Conyon, Lerong He, Steen  Thomsen :: SSRN
> 
> "We estimate the impact of non-pharmacological interventions (NPIs) on COVID-19 deaths in Scandinavia. We exploit policy variation between Denmark and Norway on the one hand and Sweden on the other. The former deployed relatively more stringent lockdowns, the latter did not. Our difference-in-differences models show that stricter lockdown policies are associated with fewer COVID-19 deaths."


associated?????? thats not very certain is it?  do they mean there is a corrolation, which as we all kbow doesnt equal causation


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> So you can't see how it's a long term gain, of getting numbers to a sustainable level, jumping on those cases that pop up and quarantining them, keeping things at a baseline manageable level until a vaccine comes?
> 
> Sounds like you've made up your mind anyway.


the other problem is two out of the three vacines are live vacines,  now live vactines are ok as lobg as you dont have a compremised immune syatem, in which case its more or less guaranteeing you get the disease, there were thousands and thoysabds of people vacibated agaibst polio, that went to to be crippledby the,disease, that they wouldnt otherwise have contracted

now its may seem obvious  to state that the people most at risk from covid are those with comprmised immune system who are the very ones who shouldnt be given a live vacine

im not sure this factor will feature heavily, in which vacine is choosen and who gets it


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> the other problem is two out of the three vacines are live vacines,  now live vactines are ok as lobg as you dont have a compremised immune syatem, in which case its more or less guaranteeing you get the disease, there were thousands and thoysabds of people vacibated agaibst polio, that went to to be crippledby the,disease, that they wouldnt otherwise have contracted
> 
> now its may seem obvious  to state that the people most at risk from covid are those with comprmised immune system who are the very ones who shouldnt be given a live vacine
> 
> im not sure this factor will feature heavily, in which vacine is choosen and who gets it


You don't need 100% vaccinated (or otherwise immune) in order to achieve herd immunity.  But, really, why are you worried?  You're arguing both sides against the middle.  On one hand, you're very laissez faire about the virus in general and accusing folks of overreacting to the danger.  And now you're arguing against the vaccine because you might get the virus?  LOL.  You're all over the place, jobo.  I recommend you do more reading.  I and others have provided links to a lot of information.  I think it would really help you understand the situation if you took a little time to check out those links.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> You don't need 100% vaccinated (or otherwise immune) in order to achieve herd immunity.  But, really, why are you worried?  You're arguing both sides against the middle.  On one hand, you're very laissez faire about the virus in general and accusing folks of overreacting to the danger.  And now you're arguing against the vaccine because you might get the virus?  LOL.  You're all over the place, jobo.  I recommend you do more reading.  I and others have provided links to a lot of information.  I think it would really help you understand the situation if you took a little time to check out those links.


i have checked them and they dont dispure what im saying at all, just no, i doibt the people postibg them have read them or they would know that and stop waisting everybodies time

im unconcended about the virus coz i have a,robust immune system and a very very small chance of beibg seriously ill let alone dead, as have the vast majority

on the larger point the shut down is not stoppibg the virus, thats true of the UK  it may be different in semi rural backward places like austialia and norway, as you may soon find out for yoursrlf when you get the lock down you desire and thibgs get worse.

people are clinging to the vacine as it gives them hope there is an end in sight,, it wont happen at all soon, if it happens at all and if they theow caution to the wind and,syart vacinating all in a frantic effort to stave of fancial calapse, they may well find that kills more than not vacinatibg at all

the vultmrable can issolate if they want, there is no escape if they stick it in yoyr arm

im not antivax in anyway, but if you consiser the history of it, there have been some monumental cock ups, im not hopeful this will be different with the scrapping of adequate testing and certification, in fact it looks odds on


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> im unconcended about the virus coz i have a,robust immune system and a very very small chance of beibg seriously ill let alone dead


Excellent, well then I don't think you'll have anything to worry about from the virus.  Shouldn't be any problem for you at all.


----------



## dvcochran

I have had a good bit of experience with modified live and killed vaccines in cattle. You have to be very careful to administer live vaccines only when cattle are open and to calves of an appropriate age. And this is harder than it sounds because latency is different animal to animal. I have had cows abort after being given a live vaccine even though they were impregnated well after the stated latency period. Calves have gotten sick after administration. I have had two mutated calves after live vaccinations, something we never had prior to or since. 
Killed vaccines are safer and much easier in regards to herd timing. Unless a herd is having a symptomatic issue they are the way to go. Especially since resistance is always a real issue in livestock. If a operator is managing the herds correctly it is safer to treat symptoms as they come. As a rule this makes more financial sense as well.

We have a closed loop on our breeding program and seldom bring livestock in for replacements; in other words we grow our herd from our own breeding lines, changing bulls and AI donors regularly. Keeping heterosis at the peak level is the goal. 

It is an individual decision and the debate between modified live and killed viruses is as large and loud as I have ever heard it in livestock industry. A Lot of trial and error has been used to refine what goes into a live virus and administration is key and somewhat delicate. 

Again it is a personal decision with the upcoming Covid-19 vaccines. For me personally, I am not going to take medication I do not need. I get the preventative idea but it is Way too early for me to feel comfortable with a realistic trial and error period. And this is not a lack of trust in the pharmaceutical  companies per se but there are a Lot of medications that get released after Much more testing and trial only to find there are side effects later. So yes, until there has been a good pool of guinea pigs or I have a personal need I will wait.


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> I have had a good bit of experience with modified live and killed vaccines in cattle. You have to be very careful to administer live vaccines only when cattle are open and to calves of an appropriate age. And this is harder than it sounds because latency is different animal to animal. I have had cows abort after being given a live vaccine even though they were impregnated well after the stated latency period. Calves have gotten sick after administration. I have had two mutated calves after live vaccinations, something we never had prior to or since.
> Killed vaccines are safer and much easier in regards to herd timing. Unless a herd is having a symptomatic issue they are the way to go. Especially since resistance is always a real issue in livestock. If a operator is managing the herds correctly it is safer to treat symptoms as they come. As a rule this makes more financial sense as well.
> 
> We have a closed loop on our breeding program and seldom bring livestock in for replacements; in other words we grow our herd from our own breeding lines, changing bulls and AI donors regularly. Keeping heterosis at the peak level is the goal.
> 
> It is an individual decision and the debate between modified live and killed viruses is as large and loud as I have ever heard it in livestock industry. A Lot of trial and error has been used to refine what goes into a live virus and administration is key and somewhat delicate.
> 
> Again it is a personal decision with the upcoming Covid-19 vaccines. For me personally, I am not going to take medication I do not need. I get the preventative idea but it is Way too early for me to feel comfortable with a realistic trial and error period. And this is not a lack of trust in the pharmaceutical  companies per se but there are a Lot of medications that get released after Much more testing and trial only to find there are side effects later. So yes, until there has been a good pool of guinea pigs or I have a personal need I will wait.



You have a good point that drugs can be as bad as the virus.
I have had the flu once in my life, so the next year I took a flu shot
and became as sick as when I had the flu.

Having said that, the HEP C cure with 84 pills at $1000 , total cost  of treatment $90,000.
It was amazing, the only side effect was it made me want to sleep all the time.
After 12 weeks of taking the pills, I was HEP C free and felt like I gain another 10 years.

I believe in our ability kill virus.
I will not take a flu shot, because the flu will not kill me.
My blood type is A,  covid likes blood type A .
I will take the vaccine as soon as it comes out.
I want to hug my grandchildren.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> You have a good point that drugs can be as bad as the virus.
> I have had the flu once in my life, so the next year I took a flu shot
> and became as sick as when I had the flu.
> 
> Having said that, the HEP C cure with 84 pills at $1000 , total cost  of treatment $90,000.
> It was amazing, the only side effect was it made me want to sleep all the time.
> After 12 weeks of taking the pills, I was HEP C free and felt like I gain another 10 years.
> 
> I believe in our ability kill virus.
> I will not take a flu shot, because the flu will not kill me.
> My blood type is A,  covid likes blood type A .
> I will take the vaccine as soon as it comes out.
> I want to hug my grandchildren.


If we have a vaccine that has gone through reliable protocols and is deemed safe, getting vaccinated is simply the right thing to do.  Some people are already talking about how they won't take a vaccine at all, or that they will wait until they see whether it 'works' or not.  I have nothing but scorn for anyone who sits on the sideline and waits for others to do the right thing, and I just hope that enough folks do the right thing to save these idiots from themselves, or at least keep their stupidity from infecting the rest of the country.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> Excellent, well then I don't think you'll have anything to worry about from the virus.  Shouldn't be any problem for you at all.


well it hasnt been the slightest problem to me, except they keep shutting down all the places i like to waste my day in, thus my social life and pretty soon it will start to efd3ct my financially,  as it will two generations om when they are still paying it off


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> If we have a vaccine that has gone through reliable protocols and is deemed safe, getting vaccinated is simply the right thing to do.  Some people are already talking about how they won't take a vaccine at all, or that they will wait until they see whether it 'works' or not.  I have nothing but scorn for anyone who sits on the sideline and waits for others to do the right thing, and I just hope that enough folks do the right thing to save these idiots from themselves, or at least keep their stupidity from infecting the rest of the country.


i suspect the number of people who will refuse  to be test suvjects for an untested vacine will be afair old percentage, 

why would people who are in no risk, put themselves in harms way, , 

not to worry, they wont have anywhere near enough to go round, so it doesnt natter if they choose or not, still no vacine

just read the cost of the vacine is thirty dollars  a shot, two shots person  

times that by 7 billion,  and someobe is making a lot of money


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well a milkion cases  in the uk, which is also apparently a managable number, which is why i queeried what " sustainable "means, it quite clearly different in different places
> 
> dont get to cocky as soon as they remove the lock down it will shoot up again, Australia shut its botder very very quickly, it that that keeping the numbers down, we cant go back in time and change that



They have removed the lockdown.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> They have removed the lockdown.


well give it a,bit if time and the second wave will come,  have they opened the borders yet, ? if not your still in lockdown


----------



## elder999

Draconian measures save lives

New Zealand, With Its Covid-19 Outbreak Under Control, Is In Talks With Biden As U.S. Exceeds 12 Million Cases


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> Draconian measures save lives
> 
> New Zealand, With Its Covid-19 Outbreak Under Control, Is In Talks With Biden As U.S. Exceeds 12 Million Cases


well ss i ssid above, they shut the borders very early, the uk allowed 20 odd milkion over seas visiters between the 1 case and lock down, , america has pourous borders , north and soulth, and were not at all qquick with a travel ban

its a lot easier to keep it out if your a small iland and a t quickly, than deal with it once its established, i mean nz only has two small citys and a 5 milkion pop, in just about the same space as the uks 70 million,  high density it isnt


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> well ss i ssid above, they shut the borders very early, the uk allowed 20 odd milkion over seas visiters between the 1 case and lock down, , america has pourous borders , north and soulth, and were not at all qquick with a travel ban
> 
> its a lot easier to keep it out if your a small iland and a t quickly, than deal with it once its established, i mean nz only has two small citys and a 5 milkion pop, in just about the same space as the uks 70 million,  high density it isnt


So, then... we can all agree that lock downs save lives.  Whew.  I'm glad we got that settled.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> So, then... we can all agree that lock downs save lives.  Whew.  I'm glad we got that settled.


no i said closing borders very earlystops the virus getting, if you dont do that then anything else is to late and a pointless waste of time and money, as nether your country or mine act quickly, we fall in to the second class

im not even sure, its saved lives to be honest, its saved the lives of nz, but the people they didnt let in, went some where else and infected others, so no actual lives were saved, just a change of location,of deaths, in fact really it was very selfish of them


----------



## jobo

ive read reports  that they have recisited stange deaths in Italy  and found the virus was ciculating as early as last summer,  so it may well hhave been here and yoyr place killing people long before we had a warning to do anything


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> but the people they didnt let in, went some where else and infected others


What if... and stay with me here... what if there was another option?  Imagine a world of fantasy and whimsy, where the virus is only contagious for a limited period of time, whether you have symptoms or not.  A utopic world where if, during that time when you might be contagious you... I don't know what to call it... avoided people.  And what if, everyone did that?  

Imagine a world where people are considerate, wear masks, and wash their hands... where not everyone even gets the virus.  It's a place of joy and happiness, where people who get the virus have access to healthcare, where people who haven't had the virus can receive a vaccination that is safe and effective, and where it's not a given that if you have the virus, you are just blithely walking around like a COVID zombie infecting as many people as possible.  

To live in such a paradise.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> What if... and stay with me here... what if there was another option?  Imagine a world of fantasy and whimsy, where the virus is only contagious for a limited period of time, whether you have symptoms or not.  A utopic world where if, during that time when you might be contagious you... I don't know what to call it... avoided people.  And what if, everyone did that?
> 
> Imagine a world where people are considerate, wear masks, and wash their hands... where not everyone even gets the virus.  It's a place of joy and happiness, where people who get the virus have access to healthcare, where people who haven't had the virus can receive a vaccination that is safe and effective, and where it's not a given that if you have the virus, you are just blithely walking around like a COVID zombie infecting as many people as possible.
> 
> To live in such a paradise.


----------



## Steve

In other news, the NY Times introduced a new color into their map key to reflect the "new record rates of infection."  Come on, people.  We can do better than this.  Covid in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count


----------



## JowGaWolf

elder999 said:


> Lockdowns and COVID-19 Deaths in Scandinavia by Martin J. Conyon, Lerong He, Steen  Thomsen :: SSRN
> 
> "We estimate the impact of non-pharmacological interventions (NPIs) on COVID-19 deaths in Scandinavia. We exploit policy variation between Denmark and Norway on the one hand and Sweden on the other. The former deployed relatively more stringent lockdowns, the latter did not. Our difference-in-differences models show that stricter lockdown policies are associated with fewer COVID-19 deaths."


I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp for some.  We talk about resistance training all the time here.  The logic is simple.  "if you don't resist then it's easier to get hit."   In the case of Covid-19  the question for every person becomes "What am I doing to to reduce the opportunities for infection?"  or "What am I doing to prevent the spread?"

If the answer answer is nothing then the it should be clear why it peaks.   If the answer is a number of thing done to reduce the opportunity, then we should naturally see a decrease.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> In other news, the NY Times introduced a new color into their map key to reflect the "new record rates of infection."  Come on, people.  We can do better than this.  Covid in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count
> 
> View attachment 23335 View attachment 23336


I'm personally waiting for the color to be Black.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Steve said:


> If we have a vaccine that has gone through reliable protocols and is deemed safe, getting vaccinated is simply the right thing to do.  Some people are already talking about how they won't take a vaccine at all, or that they will wait until they see whether it 'works' or not.  I have nothing but scorn for anyone who sits on the sideline and waits for others to do the right thing, and I just hope that enough folks do the right thing to save these idiots from themselves, or at least keep their stupidity from infecting the rest of the country.


I'm one of those people who will wait.before taking the Vaccine.  I don't have problems with Vaccines.  I'm just cautious about a Vaccine for a virus that they are still learning about and I'm concerned that the Vaccine development has been rushed.  I keep hearing "Emergency Use" which has the feel that something isn't complete, but the company has permissions to use it as an emergency.

I would rather they follow the normal process.  I look at how many side effects that medicine has after years of development, now we are going to skip additional years of development for emergency use?  That's what doesn't sit well for me.  All through my life, I've seen things go bad because someone, or some organization Rushed things. 

For me there is a difference between picking up the pace and rushing to complete something.  I'm fine with picking up the pace, but I really do not trust Rush Jobs.
Even in a medical emergency when everyone is in a hurry.  That's fine.  But don't rush.  Mistakes usually happen when people Rush.  I understand the business side of this as well where companies are also racing to be First to Market.  That bothers me as well to.

We know that it's possible to greatly reduce the infection rate, we just need to do what's needed to accomplish that so that a quality vaccine can be developed.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp for some.  We talk about resistance training all the time here.  The logic is simple.  "if you don't resist then it's easier to get hit."   In the case of Covid-19  the question for every person becomes "What am I doing to to reduce the opportunities for infection?"  or "What am I doing to prevent the spread?"
> 
> If the answer answer is nothing then the it should be clear why it peaks.   If the answer is a number of thing done to reduce the opportunity, then we should naturally see a decrease.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> In other news, the NY Times introduced a new color into their map key to reflect the "new record rates of infection."  Come on, people.  We can do better than this.  Covid in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count
> 
> View attachment 23335 View attachment 23336



taling about correlation, i see the rate has jumped dramatically since trump lost,,, just saying


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp for some.  We talk about resistance training all the time here.  The logic is simple.  "if you don't resist then it's easier to get hit."   In the case of Covid-19  the question for every person becomes "What am I doing to to reduce the opportunities for infection?"  or "What am I doing to prevent the spread?"
> 
> If the answer answer is nothing then the it should be clear why it peaks.   If the answer is a number of thing done to reduce the opportunity, then we should naturally see a decrease.




but i am training against resistance to fight the virus


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> what do you mean by sustainable level,,, ,
> 
> its the economics of lock down that isnt sustainable,


Sustainable as in manageable. Able to get control of things when outbreaks occur. When it reaches higher numbers and unknown sources/mystery cases etc, it can escalate rapidly. And sustainable as in keeping things at a level which the economy can still be okay.

Keeping things there means we WON'T bounce in and out of lockdowns.


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> the other problem is two out of the three vacines are live vacines,  now live vactines are ok as lobg as you dont have a compremised immune syatem, in which case its more or less guaranteeing you get the disease, there were thousands and thoysabds of people vacibated agaibst polio, that went to to be crippledby the,disease, that they wouldnt otherwise have contracted
> 
> now its may seem obvious  to state that the people most at risk from covid are those with comprmised immune system who are the very ones who shouldnt be given a live vacine
> 
> im not sure this factor will feature heavily, in which vacine is choosen and who gets it



I don't really know what to say to that. I'm sure there are always going to be issues regardless. But you'd think these issues of a compromised immune system and vaccine response would be taken into account, seeing as though as a priority these vaccines are going to be most beneficial for the high risk population.


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Sustainable as in manageable. Able to get control of things when outbreaks occur. When it reaches higher numbers and unknown sources/mystery cases etc, it can escalate rapidly. And sustainable as in keeping things at a level which the economy can still be okay.
> 
> Keeping things there means we WON'T bounce in and out of lockdowns.


but we will bounce in and out of lock down, i know this cause the uk keeps bouncing in and out of lock down

at the moment circa 1 million uk nationals have the virus, that it seems is manageable and sustainable of couse a million students are about to go home for Christmas, so i expects that to go up somewhat


----------



## JowGaWolf

That picture didn't make sense to me either.  The US military and US government made tons of errors in WWWII.  We literally just threw bodies at stuff.



jobo said:


> View attachment 23339but i am training against resistance to fight the virus


That picture doesn't make sense to me. Being that there were healthy people like who died or who suffered badly.





Coronavirus survivor shares shocking weight loss pictures  - CNN Video

According to this page this guy died of Covid Source: https://see.news/rambo-iraqi-coronavirus-bodybuilder-death-infections/


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> That picture didn't make sense to me either.  The US military and US government made tons of errors in WWWII.  We literally just threw bodies at stuff.
> 
> 
> That picture doesn't make sense to me. Being that there were healthy people like who died or who suffered badly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus survivor shares shocking weight loss pictures  - CNN Video
> 
> According to this page this guy died of Covid Source: https://see.news/rambo-iraqi-coronavirus-bodybuilder-death-infections/


but only a tiny fraction of one% are people who look like that. healthy people have heart attacks and blood clots on the brain etal, you wouldn't say that they should stop being healthy to avoid early death would you

the people most at risk have compromised immune systems, if you compromise your own immune system then your increasing your risk







i dont even get colds, ive never had the flu, i still have my tonsils and appendix, i cant remember the last time i was sick, maybe when i had the measles at 4 ive not spent a night in hospital, other than one night after a a car crash since i left at three days old

youve got to work your immune system or it wont work when you need it


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> but only a tiny fraction of one% are people who look like that. healthy people have heart attacks and blood clots on the brain etal, you wouldn't say that they should stop being healthy to avoid early death would you
> 
> the people most at risk have compromised immune systems, if you compromise your own immune system then your increasing your risk


I don't know what you are talking about here.  I've nothing close to "You wouldn't say that they should stop being healthy to avoid early death ..."  The point of me showing the pictures is to show that healthy people are also greatly affected by the virus as well.

If it wasn't for the medical professional, Cov-19 would have claimed many more people.  



jobo said:


> i dont even get colds, ive never had the flu, i still have my tonsils and appendix, i cant remember the last time i was sick, maybe when i had the measles at 4
> 
> youve got to work your immune system


This probably has more to do with your DNA and less to do about you working your immune system.  Even thought that is the case,  it's no guarantee that Covid-19 wouldn't be one of the worse experiences in your life.

Personally I have yet to hear anyone who has had Covid-19 share the same thoughts that you have about it.  They often say the opposite.  But I find a lot of people who haven't had Covid -19 make the same assumptions that you are currently making.  






But if you feel like you want to test your DNA and that you are one of the few then that's your choice.  There are some people who thought the same.  There are some people who think just like you and many of them are Currently in the Mid USA.





Just a little perspective on some things you may not be aware of.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know what you are talking about here.  I've nothing close to "You wouldn't say that they should stop being healthy to avoid early death ..."  The point of me showing the pictures is to show that healthy people are also greatly affected by the virus as well.
> 
> If it wasn't for the medical professional, Cov-19 would have claimed many more people.
> 
> 
> This probably has more to do with your DNA and less to do about you working your immune system.  Even thought that is the case,  it's no guarantee that Covid-19 wouldn't be one of the worse experiences in your life.
> 
> Personally I have yet to hear anyone who has had Covid-19 share the same thoughts that you have about it.  They often say the opposite.  But I find a lot of people who haven't had Covid -19 make the same assumptions that you are currently making.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if you feel like you want to test your DNA and that you are one of the few then that's your choice.  There are some people who thought the same.  There are some people who think just like you and many of them are Currently in the Mid USA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just a little perspective on some things you may not be aware of.


healthy people are effected vy heart attCks as well, just not very many of them. just like not many healthy people die of covid , just a very few, but as your not healthy, you do perhaps need to worry, and the nore you issolate yourself and spash santizer every where the more you need to worry


----------



## elder999

Alfano-Ercolano2020_Article_TheEfficacyOfLockdownAgainstCO.pdf

"Our results show that lockdown is efective in reducing the number of new cases in the countries that implement it, compared with those countries that do not. This is especially true around 10 days after the implementation of the policy. Its efcacy continues to grow up to 20 days after implementation."


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> Alfano-Ercolano2020_Article_TheEfficacyOfLockdownAgainstCO.pdf
> 
> "Our results show that lockdown is efective in reducing the number of new cases in the countries that implement it, compared with those countries that do not. This is especially true around 10 days after the implementation of the policy. Its efcacy continues to grow up to 20 days after implementation."


then what happens ? it goes up again perhaps?


----------



## Bruce7

jobo said:


> then what happens ? it goes up again perhaps?



The Goal is to keep the numbers down, so we do not over run the hospitals.
When the hospitals are full,  covid and non covid  patients can not be cared for properly and people die.
There is a limited number of Doctors and nurses, they can only work so many 16 hour days.


----------



## Bruce7

Biden will have no excuse for not being ready on day one to fight covid.
General Services Administrator Emily Murphy cleared the way for Biden to coordinate with federal agencies ahead of his Jan. 20 inauguration. 
Feds agree to help Biden transition after more Trump defeats


----------



## dvcochran

elder999 said:


> Draconian measures save lives
> 
> New Zealand, With Its Covid-19 Outbreak Under Control, Is In Talks With Biden As U.S. Exceeds 12 Million Cases


That is a tough comparison when you consider the difference in population. If my math was right infection rate difference is only about .3%. 
Plus there has to be some factor for New Zealand being an island country I would think.


----------



## dvcochran

jobo said:


> taling about correlation, i see the rate has jumped dramatically since trump lost,,, just saying


Oh give it time. Someone in the news will claim Trump was suppressing numbers before long. If our hallowed government, the CDC and WHO are so almighty that is virtually impossible. 

I have not bashed anyone about whether they choose to take a vaccine right away or not like certain people have (@Steve). And some people wonder why others think they are just a stupid ash button pusher. If you truly believe the numbers do not lie look at the total deaths year to year. Very simple and very telling data. 
Resistance it something we have fought since the beginning of modern medicine. Our bodies are incredible machines that are designed to self sustain/heal and are intuitive. Or they are culled out. That is just the hard reality of things. 
Throwing something unnecessary into the mix just asking to screws things up.


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> Oh give it time. Someone in the news will claim Trump was suppressing numbers before long. If our hallowed government, the CDC and WHO are so almighty that is virtually impossible.
> 
> I have not bashed anyone about whether they choose to take a vaccine right away or not like certain people have (@Steve). And some people wonder why others think they are just a stupid ash button pusher. If you truly believe the numbers do not lie look at the total deaths year to year. Very simple and very telling data.
> Resistance it something we have fought since the beginning of modern medicine. Our bodies are incredible machines that are designed to self sustain/heal and are intuitive. Or they are culled out. That is just the hard reality of things.
> Throwing something unnecessary into the mix just asking to screws things up.



I agree deciding to take the vaccine is a very personal decision. 
IMO we should not pressure people on this subject.
IMO I feel people who do not wear mask are selfish. 
Wearing a mask will not hurt your body.


----------



## elder999

dvcochran said:


> That is a tough comparison when you consider the difference in population. If my math was right infection rate difference is only about .3%.
> Plus there has to be some factor for New Zealand being an island country I would think.



Part of my larger point.

The Killer Clown from Space there is from UK, I believe, an island country about the size of the state of Oregon if I'm not mistaken......


----------



## Bruce7

1000 caregivers in Cleveland are sick or in quarantine.
Shortages in hospital staff in the state of Ohio.


----------



## _Simon_

jobo said:


> well give it a,bit if time and the second wave will come,  have they opened the borders yet, ? if not your still in lockdown


Wait... so any health directive to follow... is technically a 'lockdown' according to you?

AH... they WON'T LET ME stand up in the middle of the aisle whilst the plane takes off... ARRRGH DARN this lockdown!!!!!!


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> What if... and stay with me here... what if there was another option?  Imagine a world of fantasy and whimsy, where the virus is only contagious for a limited period of time, whether you have symptoms or not.  A utopic world where if, during that time when you might be contagious you... I don't know what to call it... avoided people.  And what if, everyone did that?
> 
> Imagine a world where people are considerate, wear masks, and wash their hands... where not everyone even gets the virus.  It's a place of joy and happiness, where people who get the virus have access to healthcare, where people who haven't had the virus can receive a vaccination that is safe and effective, and where it's not a given that if you have the virus, you are just blithely walking around like a COVID zombie infecting as many people as possible.
> 
> To live in such a paradise.



Yeah it is called Queensland.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well give it a,bit if time and the second wave will come,  have they opened the borders yet, ? if not your still in lockdown



How much time do you want?


----------



## Steve

Good news yesterday in the USA.  The GSA administrator has signed off on the transition funding, formally acknowledging Biden as the President Elect.  This means that his COVID team can begin accessing detailed information about Operation Warp Speed, and also start influencing policy during the lame duck period so that they can get rolling right away on January 20.


----------



## Steve

drop bear said:


> Yeah it is called Queensland.


Nobody likes those banana benders.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Good news yesterday in the USA.  The GSA administrator has signed off on the transition funding, formally acknowledging Biden as the President Elect.  This means that his COVID team can begin accessing detailed information about Operation Warp Speed, and also start influencing policy during the lame duck period so that they can get rolling right away on January 20.


So you are expecting some miraculous change come January 20? Deluded thinking. But run with it as usual.


----------



## elder999

It's more like 98%.
Apparently you're incapable of calculating that 2% of 328 million people is *6.5 million people*.

A frigging holocaust.

Not to mention that 20% of those who survive this terrible disease have lifelong after effects. Neurological. Respiratory. Circulatory. People have had to get lung transplants. 

Not to mention that it has mutated something more than 8 times-mutation is not our friend, and only happens with continued transmission.


----------



## Flying Crane

elder999 said:


> It's more like 98%.
> Apparently you're incapable of calculating that 2% of 328 million people is *6.5 million people*.
> 
> A frigging holocaust.
> 
> Not to mention that 20% of those who survive this terrible disease have lifelong after effects. Neurological. Respiratory. Circulatory. People have had to get lung transplants.
> 
> Not to mention that it has mutated something more than 8 times-mutation is not our friend, and only happens with continued transmission.


Except that the death toll will actually be much much higher than these numbers if this gets so far out of control.  These i think would assume the level of medical care consistent with what we have seen so far.  As medical facilities are absolutely swamped, many people who might have survived with medical care will not get that care, and will die.  The only people who will survive are those with a mild enough case that they never need medical treatment at all, those who can ride it out at home without ever seeing a doctor, because it will become impossible to see a doctor at all, nevermind get into a hospital for heavier treatment.


----------



## Steve

Flying Crane said:


> Except that the death toll will actually be much much higher than these numbers if this gets so far out of control.  These i think would assume the level of medical care consistent with what we have seen so far.  As medical facilities are absolutely swamped, many people who might have survived with medical care will not get that care, and will die.  The only people who will survive are those with a mild enough case that they never need medical treatment at all, those who can ride it out at home without ever seeing a doctor, because it will become impossible to see a doctor at all, nevermind get into a hospital for heavier treatment.


Pretty bleak.  Let's hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Steve

USA has 4.25% of the World's population, and are nowhere near the population density of much of the world.  

As of today, we have 21% of the total worldwide cases, and 18.5% of the COVID related deaths.


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> So you are expecting some miraculous change come January 20? Deluded thinking. But run with it as usual.



I agree that Biden can't do much, but complain during the lame duck.
There will be no miraculous change Jan 20, but there will be improvement.
It is Biden's number one priority, therefore more resources will be given to fight covid.
He will not act like he knows everything about covid, importantly he will not get in the way of experts.
I don't expect things will get more normal till to late summer.

Even when we beat covid, we will need to be watchful.
It is kind of like 9/11. Airports were not secure, now they are.
We now will have to develop a virus plan like Taiwan did.
There will be more viruses and we need to be ready next time.
The Obama plan that was dissolved in 2018 was probably not good enough to stop covid, 
but at least there was a plan.  
Americans have be hurt before we respond to a problem.
Before Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of America did not want to get in the war.
I believe America will beat covid and be ready for the next virus.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bruce7 said:


> I agree that Biden can't do much, but complain during the lame duck.
> There will be no miraculous change Jan 20, but there will be improvement.
> It is Biden's number one priority, therefore more resources will be given to fight covid.
> He will not act like he knows everything about covid, importantly he will not get in the way of experts.
> I don't expect things will get more normal till to late summer.
> 
> Even when we beat covid, we will need to be watchful.
> It is kind of like 9/11. Airports were not secure, now they are.
> We now will have to develop a virus plan like Taiwan did.
> There will be more viruses and we need to be ready next time.
> The Obama plan that was dissolved in 2018 was probably not good enough to stop covid,
> but at least there was a plan.
> Americans have be hurt before we respond to a problem.
> Before Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of America did not want to get in the war.
> I believe America will beat covid and be ready for the next virus.


One thing I am hopeful of starting January 20, is that we will get serious about putting together another significant relief package that can make it possible for those who are out of work to survive until we can get the vaccines into widespread distribution, instead of trying to strong-arm everyone into going back to work when they become financially desperate, which only helps spread the pandemic.  In all seriousness, the fewer people who are going out to jobs where they interact with more people, the better we will be in controlling the pandemic.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> I agree that Biden can't do much, but complain during the lame duck.
> There will be no miraculous change Jan 20, but there will be improvement.
> It is Biden's number one priority, therefore more resources will be given to fight covid.
> He will not act like he knows everything about covid, importantly he will not get in the way of experts.
> I don't expect things will get more normal till to late summer.
> 
> Even when we beat covid, we will need to be watchful.
> It is kind of like 9/11. Airports were not secure, now they are.
> We now will have to develop a virus plan like Taiwan did.
> There will be more viruses and we need to be ready next time.
> The Obama plan that was dissolved in 2018 was probably not good enough to stop covid,
> but at least there was a plan.
> Americans have be hurt before we respond to a problem.
> Before Pearl Harbor, the vast majority of America did not want to get in the war.
> I believe America will beat covid and be ready for the next virus.


Just the simple shift in motivation will make a difference. This current administration is motivated by only two things: greed and glory.  

We're in a bit of a jam right now because a lot of folks are just fed up with the entire thing, as a direct result of the gross mishandling of this current administration.  It's been a debacle by any measure, and so a new administration is starting off in a really tough position.  So, right out of the gate, having a clear, consistent message that is aligned with best practices from places around the globe that have done a good job of managing the pandemic and also minimizing economic impact will help.  Also having a message that is, you know, supported by medical and scientific experts, is helpful.   They're going to have to address and overcome the fatigue that everyone is feeling.

But, I think there is more that a competent administration can do.  Job number one is to start sharing information, open the lines of communication with the States, regardless of party affiliation, and make sure that resources (PPE, etc) are going where they are needed without forcing States to compete against each other in a bidding war.  Now that the Biden administration is able to officially begin the transfer of power, they can dig into what was really happening during Operation Warp Speed. 

The next big thing is going to be to ensure that safe, effective vaccinations are made available to all Americans at no cost.  There is zero chance this current administration would be able to coordinate that, but I'm confident that the next will make it happen.

beyond that, I mean, we could get into passing relief bills, addressing the income and small business impacts.  It's not going to happen overnight, but when you're handed such a disastrous situation that stems from such gross incompetence, it takes a while to get things turned around.


----------



## Bruce7

Flying Crane said:


> One thing I am hopeful of starting January 20, is that we will get serious about putting together another significant relief package that can make it possible for those who are out of work to survive until we can get the vaccines into widespread distribution, instead of trying to strong-arm everyone into going back to work when they become financially desperate, which only helps spread the pandemic.  In all seriousness, the fewer people who are going out to jobs where they interact with more people, the better we will be in controlling the pandemic.


 
I agree that people are hurting and need help. 
I hope that Democrats give up on trying to get everything we need. 
Let the senate have a win so people in need can get something now.
Something is better than nothing.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> I agree that people are hurting and need help.
> I hope that Democrats give up on trying to get everything we need.
> Let the senate have a win so people in need can get something now.
> Something is better than nothing.


Tough one, because this may be the only chance they have.  The biggest issues with the Senate HEALS act is that it really takes a lot of protections away from employees by limiting liability for businesses, and no protectoins for renters or homeowners.  Bottom line, the Senate bill is good for businesses and not great for regular people.  The House HEALS act is better for regular people, but less so for businesses.  If the House goes along with the Senate bill, a lot of folks will get rich, and we'll end up with another housing bust and a lot of people being evicted from their homes, just as soon as the law allows. 

The above is my interpretation, but I encourage you all to check it out for yourself.  Here's a link to what looks like a thorough side-by-side comparison of the two bills. 

Side-By-Side Comparison: the Senate HEALS Act vs. the House HEROES Act


----------



## mograph

dvcochran said:


> So you are expecting some miraculous change come January 20? Deluded thinking. But run with it as usual.


"Miraculous?"
You might want to dial down the hyperbole if you want to be taken seriously.


----------



## Flying Crane

Bruce7 said:


> I agree that people are hurting and need help.
> I hope that Democrats give up on trying to get everything we need.
> Let the senate have a win so people in need can get something now.
> Something is better than nothing.


The problem is, what the Senate seems to want to do is give money to the corporations, which never seems to get to the people who are actually out of work.  I agree that businesses need to survive until they can stand on their own again.  But people who are already furloughed or who have simply lost their jobs and need to find a new one, need financial support.  That is what the Senate has been unwilling to do.


----------



## Steve

mograph said:


> "Miraculous?"
> You might want to dial down the hyperbole if you want to be taken seriously.


----------



## Bruce7

Steve said:


> Tough one, because this may be the only chance they have.  The biggest issues with the Senate HEALS act is that it really takes a lot of protections away from employees by limiting liability for businesses, and no protectoins for renters or homeowners.  Bottom line, the Senate bill is good for businesses and not great for regular people.  The House HEALS act is better for regular people, but less so for businesses.  If the House goes along with the Senate bill, a lot of folks will get rich, and we'll end up with another housing bust and a lot of people being evicted from their homes, just as soon as the law allows.
> 
> The above is my interpretation, but I encourage you all to check it out for yourself.  Here's a link to what looks like a thorough side-by-side comparison of the two bills.
> 
> Side-By-Side Comparison: the Senate HEALS Act vs. the House HEROES Act


I agree the HEALS Act is what we need.
I am saying people can not wait until Jan 20.
People need something now. People are hungry now.
Take what you can now, and fight for something better later.


----------



## Steve

Bruce7 said:


> I agree the HEALS Act is what we need.
> I am saying people can not wait until Jan 20.
> People need something now. People are hungry now.
> Take what you can now, and fight for something better later.


Sometimes, you only get one bite at the apple.  The issue is, after January 20, if there is a GOP led Senate, they will have no incentive to do anything but block all efforts.  We've seen how this plays out.  The only opportunity to get things done legislatively in a situation like this is to, unfortunately, play chicken and use what leverage you have when you have it.  

It's terrible, I know.  But look at the link I posted, and it's pretty clear where the priorities lie.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> The problem is, what the Senate seems to want to do is give money to the corporations, which never seems to get to the people who are actually out of work.


Businesses don't get rich by giving money to the top.  They get rich by people on the bottom having money to spend.  Even if a person is out of work, they will still spend money in some shape or form until there is no money left..  From an economic perspective, I think there are people who don't want to solve the issue.  It's easy to spot them, because they say give money to the big corporations but will tell the average worker to lift themselves up..   So help big business but tell regular people that they need to help themselves.

Countries are like Trees..  Take care of the root and the tree will grow healthy deny the root an the tree will die.   One could say, "Take care of the ones who are on the bottom, and and your Country will thrive.   Ignore those on the bottom and your country will rot.   Whatever hardships and problems are on the bottom they have to be addressed..


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> It's more like 98%.
> Apparently you're incapable of calculating that 2% of 328 million people is *6.5 million people*.
> 
> A frigging holocaust.
> 
> Not to mention that 20% of those who survive this terrible disease have lifelong after effects. Neurological. Respiratory. Circulatory. People have had to get lung transplants.
> 
> Not to mention that it has mutated something more than 8 times-mutation is not our friend, and only happens with continued transmission.


your tone sugests your holding me partly respobaible for this?

60 milkion people die every year, its sort of what happens , if you want less deaths live in a smaller country, the states have 2  .5 milkion death every year, why are not not crying over the 25 million that have died in the last decade, thats a holocaust  x 4

the fact remains, its a very low risk to 99% of people, if you want to split hairs lets call it 98.5%,

and id love to see where youve got this 20% figure from, 80% dont even know they have it,

we have currently circa 1 milkion cases in the uk, 200 thousand arnt goibg to need lung transplants,


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> How much time do you want?


im not wishing it one you, lets hope it doesnt, but if / when they open the borders it will return


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> USA has 4.25% of the World's population, and are nowhere near the population density of much of the world.
> 
> As of today, we have 21% of the total worldwide cases, and 18.5% of the COVID related deaths.
> 
> View attachment 23340


we most of the world isnt doing widespread testing, so you have 21% of the confirmed cases, do more tesstibg get more confirned cases,


----------



## Flying Crane

Bruce7 said:


> I agree the HEALS Act is what we need.
> I am saying people can not wait until Jan 20.
> People need something now. People are hungry now.
> Take what you can now, and fight for something better later.


Sure, but if all the aid goes to corporations and none of it goes to the people who are desperate, that simply does not help.  If the is the example of what we can get now, I say no because it is not helpful and could even be misspent.


----------



## elder999

jobo said:


> and id love to see where youve got this 20% figure from, 80% dont even know they have it,
> s,



https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.26368

https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(20)30436-5/abstract

"
 In previously hospitalised and nonhospitalised patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19, multiple symptoms are present about 3 months after symptoms onset. This suggests the presence of a “post-COVID-19 syndrome” and highlights the unmet healthcare needs in a subgroup of patients with “mild” or “severe” COVID-19."

Persistent Symptoms in Patients After Acute COVID-19

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...ujgsXC1KOgraZXWApKBPHeUzqJL4PRCnuIPqsqC2--ZhF

https://journals.lww.com/cmj/fullte...XcnJi7AXBlzCNL4A1oEygi_mE_62tq_khlldgYDMmljYc

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.26465


----------



## elder999

.


----------



## elder999

.


----------



## elder999

jobo said:


> your tone sugests your holding me partly respobaible for this?,



No, but a lot of what you have to say is just plain stupid.

I hold you *completely* responsible for your own stupidity.


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> No, but a lot of what you have to say is just plain stupid.
> 
> I hold you *completely* responsible for your own stupidity.


well yea, run out of cogent arguments throw insults about


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.26368
> 
> https://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(20)30436-5/abstract
> 
> "
> In previously hospitalised and nonhospitalised patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19, multiple symptoms are present about 3 months after symptoms onset. This suggests the presence of a “post-COVID-19 syndrome” and highlights the unmet healthcare needs in a subgroup of patients with “mild” or “severe” COVID-19."
> 
> Persistent Symptoms in Patients After Acute COVID-19
> 
> Post-discharge persistent symptoms and health-related quality of life after hospitalization for COVID-19 - ScienceDirect
> 
> https://journals.lww.com/cmj/fullte...XcnJi7AXBlzCNL4A1oEygi_mE_62tq_khlldgYDMmljYc
> 
> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jmv.26465


so where does it say 20% ?


----------



## elder999

jobo said:


> so where does it say 20% ?



Yeah, I rounded that down.

*WAY* down.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19

"In this cohort study including 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/me...suffer-long-term-covid-19-illness/ar-BB17cURc

https://www.newsweek.com/most-recovered-covid-19-patients-left-heart-damage-study-shows-1521456

https://www.inverse.com/mind-body/covid-19-brain-effects

https://www.statnews.com/2020/08/12/after-covid19-mental-neurological-effects-smolder/

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-we-know-about-the-long-term-effects-of-covid-19


----------



## jobo

elder999 said:


> Yeah, I rounded that down.
> 
> *WAY* down.
> 
> Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From COVID-19
> 
> "In this cohort study including 100 patients recently recovered from COVID-19 identified from a COVID-19 test center, cardiac magnetic resonance imaging revealed cardiac involvement in 78 patients (78%) and ongoing myocardial inflammation in 60 patients (60%), which was independent of preexisting conditions, severity and overall course of the acute illness, and the time from the original diagnosis."
> 
> CDC Says Patients Suffer Long-Term COVID-19 Illness
> 
> Most recovered COVID-19 patients left with heart damage: study shows
> 
> Many Covid-19 patients are reporting neurological symptoms
> 
> Long after a Covid-19 infection, mental and neurological effects smolder
> 
> What We Know About the Long-Term Effects of COVID-19


hace you actually read that,,,, it states in its limitations that is doesnt on anyway relate to asymtomatics and as that is the largest part, your aleady down to circa 30/ 20 % of those infected,,,

so lets call it 20% out of that 20% only 5% of the 20 % had serioous issues, so thats  1 % of the total.

n
so not 20% of those infected,  certainly not 70% of those infected , 1( one) %


----------



## jobo

_Simon_ said:


> Wait... so any health directive to follow... is technically a 'lockdown' according to you?
> 
> AH... they WON'T LET ME stand up in the middle of the aisle whilst the plane takes off... ARRRGH DARN this lockdown!!!!!!


locking down the borders,  is a lock down


----------



## dvcochran

mograph said:


> "Miraculous?"
> You might want to dial down the hyperbole if you want to be taken seriously.


I do not expect it at all. It was implied by others that they are thinking that way.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> I agree the HEALS Act is what we need.
> I am saying people can not wait until Jan 20.
> People need something now. People are hungry now.
> Take what you can now, and fight for something better later.


The “Restoring Critical Supply Chains and Intellectual Property Act” is excellent and long overdue. There have been attempts to pass several versions over the years. 

The two columns do clearly show the conservative/liberal mindsets.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Just the simple shift in motivation will make a difference. This current administration is motivated by only two things: greed and glory.
> 
> We're in a bit of a jam right now because a lot of folks are just fed up with the entire thing, as a direct result of the gross mishandling of this current administration.  It's been a debacle by any measure, and so a new administration is starting off in a really tough position.  So, right out of the gate, having a canaging the pandemic and also minimizing economic impact will help.  Also having a message that is, you know, supportelear, consistent message that is aligned with best practices from places around the globe that have done a good job of md by medical and scientific experts, is helpful.   They're going to have to address and overcome the fatigue that everyone is feeling.
> 
> But, I think there is more that a competent administration can do.  Job number one is to start sharing information, open the lines of communication with the States, regardless of party affiliation, and make sure that resources (PPE, etc) are going where they are needed without forcing States to compete against each other in a bidding war.  Now that the Biden administration is able to officially begin the transfer of power, they can dig into what was really happening during Operation Warp Speed.
> 
> The next big thing is going to be to ensure that safe, effective vaccinations are made available to all Americans at no cost.  There is zero chance this current administration would be able to coordinate that, but I'm confident that the next will make it happen.
> 
> beyond that, I mean, we could get into passing relief bills, addressing the income and small business impacts.  It's not going to happen overnight, but when you're handed such a disastrous situation that stems from such gross incompetence, it takes a while to get things turned around.



You are right that some people need a shift in motivation. More correctly what motivates them. Having a personality issue with leadership is just plain childish. How quickly we forget where the economy was less than a year ago. 
Clearly some people are fed up (you) but you certainly do not speak for everyone, no matter how hard you try. Do you even realize how big a blowhard you are?

That you cannot follow the messages and directives being given by leadership is on You. Not too many other people seem to be having that problem.

I was going to post this part on it's own but you led right into it. 
We finished up our third change from producing N95 masks and PPE media this afternoon. Took just under 2000 manhours and I do not expect to see payment for 120 days plus. There are thousands of masks in the warehouses (yes plural) and the producer is expecting more to be shipped back to them because the 'customers' have no where to put them. They have not been paid for production since February. 
So your idea that there is a shortage of PPE is laughable. Operation Warp Speed did just what it set out to do and more. Now if the retail and public suppliers were selling/giving out proportional to what was ordered and/or the expected demand things would make a little more sense. 

If the current administration does not deliver the vaccination(s) it would only be because they are no longer in office. The next administration will be bound by the same delivery chains. How someone would think/claim delivery time is not 100% on the pharmaceutical companies is sad and shady. Silly to think political workers and policy makers are driving the delivery time. Even scarier to think liberal factions were holding them back as a political tactic. Sadly this would not shock me. 

The extension of a stimulus bill is a two edged sword. A personal bailout seems to be what you are looking for. Sad. Surely even you understand Nothing is free and You and I and Everyone else will end up paying more across the board for the freebies from this dilemma. How else do you think these things will be paid for? And as usual the price increases will be absorbed and people will get somewhat conditioned to thinking it is a 'new normal'. Just stupid crutch thinking.


----------



## Steve

mograph said:


> "Miraculous?"
> You might want to dial down the hyperbole if you want to be taken seriously.


Lol.  Who's talking about miracles?


----------



## Bruce7

dvcochran said:


> You are right that some people need a shift in motivation. More correctly what motivates them. Having a personality issue with leadership is just plain childish. How quickly we forget where the economy was less than a year ago.
> Clearly some people are fed up (you) but you certainly do not speak for everyone, no matter how hard you try. Do you even realize how big a blowhard you are?
> 
> That you cannot follow the messages and directives being given by leadership is on You. Not too many other people seem to be having that problem.
> 
> I was going to post this part on it's own but you led right into it.
> We finished up our third change from producing N95 masks and PPE media this afternoon. Took just under 2000 manhours and I do not expect to see payment for 120 days plus. There are thousands of masks in the warehouses (yes plural) and the producer is expecting more to be shipped back to them because the 'customers' have no where to put them. They have not been paid for production since February.
> So your idea that there is a shortage of PPE is laughable. Operation Warp Speed did just what it set out to do and more. Now if the retail and public suppliers were selling/giving out proportional to what was ordered and/or the expected demand things would make a little more sense.
> 
> If the current administration does not deliver the vaccination(s) it would only be because they are no longer in office. The next administration will be bound by the same delivery chains. How someone would think/claim delivery time is not 100% on the pharmaceutical companies is sad and shady. Silly to think political workers and policy makers are driving the delivery time. Even scarier to think liberal factions were holding them back as a political tactic. Sadly this would not shock me.
> 
> The extension of a stimulus bill is a two edged sword. A personal bailout seems to be what you are looking for. Sad. Surely even you understand Nothing is free and You and I and Everyone else will end up paying more across the board for the freebies from this dilemma. How else do you think these things will be paid for? And as usual the price increases will be absorbed and people will get somewhat conditioned to thinking it is a 'new normal'. Just stupid crutch thinking.



There is a shortage of M95 mask in hospitals.
Why are all these M95 mask not where they are needed?
Why are manufactures not being paid?
IMO this bad management.

IMO management of the government has not been good, which is part of the covid problem.
If the government can not manage M95 mask, how will the government manage vaccinations well?

Even scarier to think liberal factions were holding them back as a political tactic. 
I think of you as a logical person. I don't understand the logic of the statement.
All the companies that were part of Warp Speed received billions from the government,
Most of the CEO's of these companies are Republicans, why would they want to hold back?


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> There is a shortage of M95 mask in hospitals.
> Why are all these M95 mask not where they are needed?
> Why are manufactures not being paid?
> IMO this bad management.
> 
> IMO management of the government has not been good, which is part of the covid problem.
> If the government can not manage M95 mask, how will the government manage vaccinations well?
> 
> Even scarier to think liberal factions were holding them back as a political tactic.
> I think of you as a logical person. I don't understand the logic of the statement.
> All the companies that were part of Warp Speed received billions from the government,
> Most of the CEO's of these companies are Republicans, why would they want to hold back?


the andwer i suspect is the govenment wont manage vacination at all well, good job there is not enough to go round


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> There is a shortage of M95 mask in hospitals.
> Why are all these M95 mask not where they are needed?
> Why are manufactures not being paid?
> IMO this bad management.
> 
> IMO management of the government has not been good, which is part of the covid problem.
> If the government can not manage M95 mask, how will the government manage vaccinations well?
> 
> Even scarier to think liberal factions were holding them back as a political tactic.
> I think of you as a logical person. I don't understand the logic of the statement.
> All the companies that were part of Warp Speed received billions from the government,
> Most of the CEO's of these companies are Republicans, why would they want to hold back?



Fully agree with your comments and I appreciate that you see me as a logical person. I am to a fault at my own peril sometimes.

Operation Warp Speed gave strong initiatives to Senators and Governors to promote strong manufacturing programs to produce PPE. And in that respect it has succeeded in spades. My direct experience with VLS manufacturers in the southeast, who ship all over the country confirms there is either gross over production leading to a glut in the supply chain or some extremely misleading and unethical things going on at the highest level of state and federal leadership. 
PPE products are out there. I can not fathom how/why there is a bottleneck, especially when I see trucks returning back full of product.  
Not sure where all the billions of dollars have gone but I know they have not been conventionally processed through the supply chain. If they funds were truly released it would seem the bucks inappropriately stopped somewhere.
In regards to the supply chain and normal order placement/order reception in manufacturing it is beyond FUBAR. I was told going in on this second wave of manufacturing conversion that we would be paid late and accept that. But I am like most service industries where normal payment is net 30 days. I haven't seen net 30 at all this year. And the last 90 days have been rough. A may have to borrow operating capital for the first time in 12 years. I turned down good work from 2 new customers this year for efforts in the PPE world which, right now, seem futile. As of right now I know the work was not performed and may still be on the table for me. Hopefully those bridges have not been burned. 
I was at one of the facilities where we finished the conversion at yesterday and sure enough another two tractor trailer loads of PPE were returned. Like I said, beyond FUBAR.


----------



## Tez3

jobo said:


> they generally take years to perf3ct and longer to adequatly test as safe,
> 
> so yes, " rushed "is a good adjective
> 
> if thats mrans it doesnt work very well and or has serioses side effects is another
> 
> drug companies are famous , for gaming their studies to show the priduct in the best light, hence why govenment scrutiny is necersary,  which isnt going to happen.
> 
> there is clearly billions to be made by beibg first, ,, if that has flvoured their reseach is a matter that only time will tell.
> 
> not forgetting that drug companirs in america are immune to civil action,for vaccines  that make peopke ill
> 
> im certainly not going to be first in the queue, let them test it on a few million other people firsts




The vaccines aren't being 'rushed', they are being prioritised. Vaccines take a long time to develop because of many things, it can take a couple of years to get the money for research, find volunteers etc. Other things are also being worked on at the same time, think driving an underpowered car through a city at rush hour. The new vaccines are ready early because money is there as are the scientists, this time think driving a high powered car on a clear lane with all traffic lights at green and a police escort through the city.


----------



## jobo

Tez3 said:


> The vaccines aren't being 'rushed', they are being prioritised. Vaccines take a long time to develop because of many things, it can take a couple of years to get the money for research, find volunteers etc. Other things are also being worked on at the same time, think driving an underpowered car through a city at rush hour. The new vaccines are ready early because money is there as are the scientists, this time think driving a high powered car on a clear lane with all traffic lights at green and a police escort through the city.


they normally take over a decade,, it will be 12 months, it not developing the vacine thats particularly time intensive, it trials to make sure its safe, thats what they have drastically cut back on

there isnt anyway to safely short cut that,, if it takes 5 years to cause problems, you need to wait 5 years to see if it causes problems, i foresee covid vacine syndrome on the horizon

and as i keep saying they are only looking to vacinate 3% of the adult population any time soon, so that would be all the front line staff and a grw old timers,, so even if it works and even if it doesnt kill all the doctors and nurses, whoch woukd be some what unfortunete,, your not getting one, unless your am old timer, im not getting one, 97% of the population isnt getting one

boris jas orders 3 milion doses,  that 1.5 milkion people,  that all that getting it in the short to mediterm term


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> The vaccines aren't being 'rushed', they are being prioritised. Vaccines take a long time to develop because of many things, it can take a couple of years to get the money for research, find volunteers etc. Other things are also being worked on at the same time, think driving an underpowered car through a city at rush hour. The new vaccines are ready early because money is there as are the scientists, this time think driving a high powered car on a clear lane with all traffic lights at green and a police escort through the city.


  The money isn't the problem and the drug companies have stated this many times when Trump was trying to push them to come up with a Vaccine.  The problem is time. The normal trial that drugs go through take time.  

The pharmaceutical companies keep saying that it takes time but no one is listening.  The fact that companies have to get an Emergency Use Authorization in the US should highlight that the drug has not completed normal testing and development.

*This answers questions about COVID-19 Vaccines and the timeline*
Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Vaccines


*Vaccines in Phase 3 Clinical Trials*
As of November 24, 2020, large-scale (Phase 3) clinical trials are in progress or being planned for five COVID-19 vaccines in the United States:

AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine
Janssen’s COVID-19 vaccine
Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine
Novavax’s COVID-19 vaccine
Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine
Source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines.html

The clinical trials may or may not be completed before the end of flu season.   Companies may want to use all of the winter to help with their testing especially since the spread is so bad now. This means that the US situation is good for testing since the infection rate is so high.  If you want know if a Vaccine protects against infection then right now is the best time to test as 100,000+ get infected everyday in the U.S.

In terms of the US the new Vaccines will be available early because of the Emergency Use Authorization and not because the vaccine has gone through all of the normal development processes.  Will I get a vaccine? yeah eventually but I'm not messing with the first batch.  And depending on how they distribute the vaccine.  I may not be able to get the first batch even if I wanted to.   They will prioritize who gets the vaccine first (here in the U.S.).


----------



## mograph

jobo said:


> well yea, run out of cogent arguments throw insults about


Because you ignore the cogent arguments and make up fantasies instead. Calling attention to the lack of value of those fantasies is quite appropriate.


----------



## Bruce7

I am an ex teacher and coach.
Most teachers I know are old and not healthy.
Can you imagine teaching class knowing you might get sick and die.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> I am an ex teacher and coach.
> Most teachers I know are old and not healthy.
> Can you imagine teaching class knowing you might get sick and die.


well if they are of that mind, they can give up teaching, easy,  sorted it for you,


----------



## jobo

mograph said:


> Because you ignore the cogent arguments and make up fantasies instead. Calling attention to the lack of value of those fantasies is quite appropriate.


it looks like a personal attack to me and now youve joined in, that appears to be against the site rules,  so the mods tell me if i do it?


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> The money isn't the problem and the drug companies have stated this many times when Trump was trying to push them to come up with a Vaccine.  The problem is time. The normal trial that drugs go through take time.
> 
> The pharmaceutical companies keep saying that it takes time but no one is listening.  The fact that companies have to get an Emergency Use Authorization in the US should highlight that the drug has not completed normal testing and development.
> 
> *This answers questions about COVID-19 Vaccines and the timeline*
> Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Vaccines
> 
> 
> *Vaccines in Phase 3 Clinical Trials*
> As of November 24, 2020, large-scale (Phase 3) clinical trials are in progress or being planned for five COVID-19 vaccines in the United States:
> 
> AstraZeneca’s COVID-19 vaccine
> Janssen’s COVID-19 vaccine
> Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccine
> Novavax’s COVID-19 vaccine
> Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine
> Source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines.html
> 
> The clinical trials may or may not be completed before the end of flu season.   Companies may want to use all of the winter to help with their testing especially since the spread is so bad now. This means that the US situation is good for testing since the infection rate is so high.  If you want know if a Vaccine protects against infection then right now is the best time to test as 100,000+ get infected everyday in the U.S.
> 
> In terms of the US the new Vaccines will be available early because of the Emergency Use Authorization and not because the vaccine has gone through all of the normal development processes.  Will I get a vaccine? yeah eventually but I'm not messing with the first batch.  And depending on how they distribute the vaccine.  I may not be able to get the first batch even if I wanted to.   They will prioritize who gets the vaccine first (here in the U.S.).


the uk govenment has proudly announced its the first in the world to approve the vacine, which makes me even more suspicious

they are being some what vague about who, how many and when, rather they are holding it up as a light at the end of a tunnel,  to keep the population on side, failing to mention at all that they can only vacinate 3 % of the population

a quick vox pop in the local rown revealed that most people are deeply suspicious and wont be queueibg up for the vacine 

a minister has also dennied that it will be mandatory to rejoin society, which of course means it will


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> the uk govenment has proudly announced its the first in the world to approve the vacine, which makes me even more suspicious
> 
> they are being some what vague about who, how many and when, rather they are holding it up as a light at the end of a tunnel,  to keep the population on side, failing to mention at all that they can only vacinate 3 % of the population
> 
> a quick vox pop in the local rown revealed that most people are deeply suspicious and wont be queueibg up for the vacine
> 
> a minister has also dennied that it will be mandatory to rejoin society, which of course means it will


Well there goes my optimism.  The U.S. is selling it as if it was fully tested over there.  Minus what happens after year 1,2.3.4.etc of use


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## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Well there goes my optimism.  The U.S. is selling it as if it was fully tested over there.  Minus what happens after year 1,2.3.4.etc of use


the uk have teviewed the figures given by the company and said, yea, looks fine, lets go for it,

the american generall insist on the raw data and anylyise it them selves

several  European  countries are also nift at us jumping the gun, germany for one who are going through proper proceedure


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> the uk have teviewed the figures given by the company and said, yea, looks fine, lets go for it,
> 
> the american generall insist on the raw data and anylyise it them selves
> 
> several  European  countries are also nift at us jumping the gun, germany for one who are going through proper proceedure


I'll definitely be watching closely. According to the news here, there are a lot of people who are cautious because of how quickly these vaccines are being pushed out.  In terms of profit, it's a gold mine.  I just hope the profits  from being first to market don't blind the companies.  Upper management and stakeholders will still have influence on things.  I hope they all do the right ting and for back up.  I hope those who are approving it don't go into panic mode and just accept anything.

A lot of where the U.S. is now with Covid -19 is due to our own stupidity.  Now we are looking for a fast way to fix what what we caused.  I hope for the safety of those in the medical field that the drug companies get it right.


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## Bruce7

100,000 + in hospital. Covid and non covid people are not going to be cared for properly, because the hospitals are full.


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## KenpoMaster805

California is also lockdown due to Covid 19. But people don't care some people are not wearing mask and not keeping distant. With that said i don't know when the vaccine will be available hope fully by next year or end of december this pendemic got all people sick and some died due to covid. I hope covid be gone soon I'm tired of staying home. Zoom on karate is not good don't much have space and i don't have a partner to work with


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## _Simon_

KenpoMaster805 said:


> California is also lockdown due to Covid 19. But people don't care some people are not wearing mask and not keeping distant. With that said i don't know when the vaccine will be available hope fully by next year or end of december this pendemic got all people sick and some died due to covid. I hope covid be gone soon I'm tired of staying home. Zoom on karate is not good don't much have space and i don't have a partner to work with



I did hear about California recently... have a few karate friends there... thinking of you all. Stay safe and keep training, in whatever way you can. I liked treating the isolation as simply yet another aspect of training and the path, and adapting to the circumstances being a big part of martial arts. You can get incredibly creative with what you can do!

Stay safe brother


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## KenpoMaster805

_Simon_ said:


> I did hear about California recently... have a few karate friends there... thinking of you all. Stay safe and keep training, in whatever way you can. I liked treating the isolation as simply yet another aspect of training and the path, and adapting to the circumstances being a big part of martial arts. You can get incredibly creative with what you can do!
> 
> Stay safe brother


Thanks Brother


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## Bruce7

In a time of  crisis, the Senate wants to hear from Jane Orien who believes in herd immunity and is promoting hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19.
Are they trying to kill us? Why can't they do something positive like give the people of this country some help?
Controversial doctor who questioned coronavirus vaccine to testify at Senate hearing


----------



## Buka

Bruce7 said:


> In a time of  crisis, the Senate wants to hear from Jane Orien who believes in herd immunity and is promoting hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19.
> Are they trying to kill us? Why can't they do something positive like give the people of this country some help?
> Controversial doctor who questioned coronavirus vaccine to testify at Senate hearing



A bag of dishes.

In other words, a dish bag.


----------



## jobo

Bruce7 said:


> In a time of  crisis, the Senate wants to hear from Jane Orien who believes in herd immunity and is promoting hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19.
> Are they trying to kill us? Why can't they do something positive like give the people of this country some help?
> Controversial doctor who questioned coronavirus vaccine to testify at Senate hearing


she is an eminent dr, one of several hundred eninent dr, who dont agree with the current strategy, 

why have you chosen to belive one set of drs and not another,?


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> she is an eminent dr, one of several hundred eninent dr, who dont agree with the current strategy,



No, she is a discredited quack.



> why have you chosen to belive one set of drs and not another,?



Because one set presents scientific evidence. The other believes alien lizards are developing a vaccine to prevent religious beliefs.


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> No, she is a discredited quack.
> 
> 
> 
> Because one set presents scientific evidence. The other believes alien lizards are developing a vaccine to prevent religious beliefs.


thats a ridiculass answer, she is " discredited" only in the eyes of those that have a different persective.

that not a reason to dismiss her views, unless you ate already dogmatic in your views

ive asked repeatedly for this illusive evidence people keep claiming exsists, so far all that been posted is incidental conjecture that in noway contradict the good doctor

perhaps youd like to try? how many covid deaths will the lock measures dave over a 12 month period? how many lives with the lockdown cost in terms resticted access to medical servives, mental heath issues and the economic damage

if you cant give accurate answers to those , you have nothing

nb not forgetting that the ecconmic damage will run for decades


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> No, she is a discredited quack.
> 
> 
> 
> Because one set presents scientific evidence. The other believes alien lizards are developing a vaccine to prevent religious beliefs.


its also worth noting that america is hoggibg the vacine, it wont exsport till all americans have been done.

where as the rest of the world has agreed to fair and even distribution accross the globe

that equates to every life saved in america, means another life lost elsewhere in the world, so no net gain in lives saved, just easier to get reelected if you save americans first


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Businesses don't get rich by giving money to the top.  They get rich by people on the bottom having money to spend.  Even if a person is out of work, they will still spend money in some shape or form until there is no money left..  From an economic perspective, I think there are people who don't want to solve the issue.  It's easy to spot them, because they say give money to the big corporations but will tell the average worker to lift themselves up..   So help big business but tell regular people that they need to help themselves.
> 
> 
> Countries are like Trees..  Take care of the root and the tree will grow healthy deny the root an the tree will die.   One could say, "Take care of the ones who are on the bottom, and and your Country will thrive.   Ignore those on the bottom and your country will rot.   Whatever hardships and problems are on the bottom they have to be addressed..



national economies tend to run better if you have a substantial under class living in( relative) poverty, that the very reason why rich developed nations, who could easily afford to eradicate poverty if there was an economic advantage all have a substantial under class living in ( relative) poverty


----------



## Tez3

jobo said:


> they normally take over a decade,, it will be 12 months, it not developing the vacine thats particularly time intensive, it trials to make sure its safe, thats what they have drastically cut back on
> 
> there isnt anyway to safely short cut that,, if it takes 5 years to cause problems, you need to wait 5 years to see if it causes problems, i foresee covid vacine syndrome on the horizon
> 
> and as i keep saying they are only looking to vacinate 3% of the adult population any time soon, so that would be all the front line staff and a grw old timers,, so even if it works and even if it doesnt kill all the doctors and nurses, whoch woukd be some what unfortunete,, your not getting one, unless your am old timer, im not getting one, 97% of the population isnt getting one
> 
> boris jas orders 3 milion doses,  that 1.5 milkion people,  that all that getting it in the short to mediterm term




I don't actually have the time or the patience to correct you, but you are wrong.


----------



## jobo

Tez3 said:


> I don't actually have the time or the patience to correct you, but you are wrong.



ir the knowledge  it seems !
here is the stages a vacine should go through to get approval,,,
How vaccines are tested, licensed and monitored | Vaccine Knowledge

its says " many years " and gives a typical example that took 20 years from concept to issue.

no matter how you view it 12 months has not gone through the testing process  required for vacines


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> national economies tend to run better if you have a substantial under class living in( relative) poverty, that the very reason why rich developed nations, who could easily afford to eradicate poverty if there was an economic advantage all have a substantial under class living in ( relative) poverty


This is debatable and there's more evidence that a robust, broad middle class that has disposable income and isn't living hand to mouth is actually a really great way to build a strong, consumer based economy with reliable growth in a version of a social market economy where we have a capitalist market that is regulated by the government to ensure competition and social responsibility. 

Doesn't even require a progressive tax schedule... just something that is a little less regressive than what we have

The issues we're seeing now, and have seen over the last 2 decades are fallout, in no small part, from neoliberal economic policies (aka laissez-faire capitalism).  Worth looking into, if you're interested.


jobo said:


> ir the knowledge  it seems !
> here is the stages a vacine should go through to get approval,,,
> How vaccines are tested, licensed and monitored | Vaccine Knowledge
> 
> its says " many years " and gives a typical example that took 20 years from concept to issue.
> 
> no matter how you view it 12 months has not gone through the testing process  required for vacines


Huh.  I looked through the site you shared, and didn't see any minimum lengths of time required to develop a vaccine.  It did cover the three phases of clinical trials, which the two main vaccines I'm aware of (Pfizer and Moderna) have completed.  

It _can_ take many years.  Sometimes, it takes a lot longer.  But really, it looks like you didn't actually read the page, and instead just saw a sentence or two that superficially supports your position.  

In the case of COVID-19, they weren't starting from scratch. "Past research on SARS and MERS vaccines has identified potential approaches."

Get the facts about a COVID-19 (coronavirus) vaccine


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> This is debatable and there's more evidence that a robust, broad middle class that has disposable income and isn't living hand to mouth is actually a really great way to build a strong, consumer based economy with reliable growth in a version of a social market economy where we have a capitalist market that is regulated by the government to ensure competition and social responsibility.
> 
> Doesn't even require a progressive tax schedule... just something that is a little less regressive than what we have
> 
> The issues we're seeing now, and have seen over the last 2 decades are fallout, in no small part, from neoliberal economic policies (aka laissez-faire capitalism).  Worth looking into, if you're interested.
> Huh.  I looked through the site you shared, and didn't see any minimum lengths of time required to develop a vaccine.  It did cover the three phases of clinical trials, which the two main vaccines I'm aware of (Pfizer and Moderna) have completed.
> 
> It _can_ take many years.  Sometimes, it takes a lot longer.  But really, it looks like you didn't actually read the page, and instead just saw a sentence or two that superficially supports your position.
> 
> In the case of COVID-19, they weren't starting from scratch. "Past research on SARS and MERS vaccines has identified potential approaches."
> 
> Get the facts about a COVID-19 (coronavirus) vaccine


there isnt a max time if you dont do long terms tests, if you do long term tests the minimum time is a little bit longer than the long term test

they clearly havent done the long term tests, thats why it needs special approval, well it did here, if that makes any different only time will tell 

they wont be doing there clinical trials on me, of that im sure


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> This is debatable and there's more evidence that a robust, broad middle class that has disposable income and isn't living hand to mouth is actually a really great way to build a strong, consumer based economy with reliable growth in a version of a social market economy where we have a capitalist market that is regulated by the government to ensure competition and social responsibility.
> 
> Doesn't even require a progressive tax schedule... just something that is a little less regressive than what we have
> 
> The issues we're seeing now, and have seen over the last 2 decades are fallout, in no small part, from neoliberal economic policies (aka laissez-faire capitalism).  Worth looking into, if you're interested.
> Huh.  I looked through the site you shared, and didn't see any minimum lengths of time required to develop a vaccine.  It did cover the three phases of clinical trials, which the two main vaccines I'm aware of (Pfizer and Moderna) have completed.
> 
> It _can_ take many years.  Sometimes, it takes a lot longer.  But really, it looks like you didn't actually read the page, and instead just saw a sentence or two that superficially supports your position.
> 
> In the case of COVID-19, they weren't starting from scratch. "Past research on SARS and MERS vaccines has identified potential approaches."
> 
> Get the facts about a COVID-19 (coronavirus) vaccine


i didnt say anyrhibg about not having affluent middle class, in order to have a an affluient middle class you also need an a less affluent lower class, and the people who drop though that make up a considerably less affluent under  class, 

that keeps wages lower so the afluent middle class get more affluent


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> its also worth noting that america is hoggibg the vacine, it wont exsport till all americans have been done.
> 
> where as the rest of the world has agreed to fair and even distribution accross the globe
> 
> that equates to every life saved in america, means another life lost elsewhere in the world, so no net gain in lives saved, just easier to get reelected if you save americans first



The vaccine made in Germany?


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> there isnt a max time if you dont do long terms tests, if you do long term tests the minimum time is a little bit longer than the long term test
> 
> they clearly havent done the long term tests, thats why it needs special approval, well it did here, if that makes any different only time will tell
> 
> they wont be doing there clinical trials on me, of that im sure


There isn't a max time... and there isn't a minimum time.  They conducted the three phases of the clinical trials. Where they saved some time is that they were building on previous research done with SARS and MERS, and they started producing the vaccine concurrent to phase 3, rather than consecutive to it.  

Seriously, man, this is not complicated.


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> i didnt say anyrhibg about not having affluent middle class, in order to have a an affluient middle class you also need an a less affluent lower class, and the people who drop though that make up a considerably less affluent under  class,
> 
> that keeps wages lower so the afluent middle class get more affluent


Frankly, it's really hard to know what you're saying.  But you did mention a "substantial under class."  I mean... maybe you were drunk when you posted that.  I don't know.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> There isn't a max time... and there isn't a minimum time.  They conducted the three phases of the clinical trials. Where they saved some time is that they were building on previous research done with SARS and MERS, and they started producing the vaccine concurrent to phase 3, rather than consecutive to it.
> 
> Seriously, man, this is not complicated.


where they saved time was nit doing a five year trial, that seems pretty obvious


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> The vaccine made in Germany?


i think its belguim, but you may be correct,


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> where they saved time was nit doibg a five year trial, that seems pretty obvious


That's true.  Not taking time is a good way to not take time.  Any other revelations you'd like to share?  That is, and I want to be clear that I'm commenting on the post and not the poster, the dumbest post I've read in weeks.  And there have been some really dumb things posted on this forum in that time.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> That's true.  Not taking time is a good way to not take time.  Any other revelations you'd like to share?  That is, and I want to be clear that I'm commenting on the post and not the poster, the dumbest post I've read in weeks.  And there have been some really dumb things posted on this forum in that time.


well what clear is they normally do long term test,  and they havent. that why its not taken a decade or so to test

which was my original point, not adequately tested


----------



## jobo

on the same topic, after a day of mass vacinations, the uk tegulators have changed the standard, from no observation time post vacination to 15 minets observation time,

this is after some adverse reactions to the vacine in hostilatal staff on the first day.  they then divulged that they knew such reactions had shown up in the test, but they had decided to ignore it and not even have the standard two mins observation

this has aparently increased the man hours to vacinate a million people from 33,000 hours to a quarter of a million

they have also told people with a history of allergies,  not to have the vacine, clearly for some people the vacine is more of a problem than the virus


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> well what clear is they normally do long term test,  and they havent. that why its not taken a decade or so to test
> 
> which was my original point, not adequately tested


what are your qualifications to evaluate that the testing was inadequate?  So far, it sounds like you have an arbitrary minimum length of time that you seem to have pulled out of your backside.  And it sounds like your opinion is contrary to the opinions of a lot of folks a whole lot more qualified to opine on the topic than you.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> what are your qualifications to evaluate that the testing was inadequate?  So far, it sounds like you have an arbitrary minimum length of time that you seem to have pulled out of your backside.  And it sounds like your opinion is contrary to the opinions of a lot of folks a whole lot more qualified to opine on the topic than you.


because they havent done long term tests like they do with every other vacine, that equalls inadeqaute testing, it not rocket science.


----------



## Steve

jobo said:


> because they havent done long term tests like they do with every other vacine, that equalls inadeqaute testing, it not rocket science.


They have done Phase 3 testing for both of the vaccines I'm familiar with (pfizer and moderna).

Pzizer completed their phase 3 testing in November:  Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, Meeting All Primary Efficacy Endpoints | Pfizer

Moderna has also completed their phase 3 testing, and have released initial analysis:  Moderna says preliminary trial data shows its coronavirus vaccine is more than 94% effective, shares soar

I think you have in mind Phase 4 testing, right?  The... (goes back and re-reads the link you provided)... "post marketing" testing?  

Phase IV studies – post-marketing surveillance to monitor the effects of the vaccine after it has been used in the population. These may be requested by a regulatory body, or carried out by the pharmaceutical industry.


----------



## jobo

Steve said:


> They have done Phase 3 testing for both of the vaccines I'm familiar with (pfizer and moderna).
> 
> Pzizer completed their phase 3 testing in November:  Pfizer and BioNTech Conclude Phase 3 Study of COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate, Meeting All Primary Efficacy Endpoints | Pfizer
> 
> Moderna has also completed their phase 3 testing, and have released initial analysis:  Moderna says preliminary trial data shows its coronavirus vaccine is more than 94% effective, shares soar
> 
> I think you have in mind Phase 4 testing, right?  The... (goes back and re-reads the link you provided)... "post marketing" testing?
> 
> Phase IV studies – post-marketing surveillance to monitor the effects of the vaccine after it has been used in the population. These may be requested by a regulatory body, or carried out by the pharmaceutical industry.


they have," concluded "it as they finished 4 years early, so yes, concluded  but not complete. the regulators have given them a pass on the long term safety testing,,,, not adequate


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> they have," concluded "it as they finished 4 years early, so yes, concluded  but not complete. the regulators have given them a pass on the long term safety testing,,,, not adequate


They will still "test" the vaccine while it's being used.  The only difference is that the test subjects will be the one's getting the vaccine as citizens and not test subjects.  By this time next year we the companies should have a good idea of what the 1 year effects are if any

Unfortunately there is a lot of bad information about the Vaccines.  But I'll keep watching and see side effects in "real time"


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> They will still "test" the vaccine while it's being used.  The only difference is that the test subjects will be the one's getting the vaccine as citizens and not test subjects.  By this time next year we the companies should have a good idea of what the 1 year effects are if any
> 
> Unfortunately there is a lot of bad information about the Vaccines.  But I'll keep watching and see side effects in "real time"


That's what phase four testing is.  @jobo is just swinging in the dark.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well what clear is they normally do long term test,  and they havent. that why its not taken a decade or so to test
> 
> which was my original point, not adequately tested



How long is adequate? And how would you know?


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> How long is adequate? And how would you know?


long ebough would be when they dont have to give special authorisation for an untested vacine ito be used on a population,

the clues in the question really


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> They will still "test" the vaccine while it's being used.  The only difference is that the test subjects will be the one's getting the vaccine as citizens and not test subjects.  By this time next year we the companies should have a good idea of what the 1 year effects are if any
> 
> Unfortunately there is a lot of bad information about the Vaccines.  But I'll keep watching and see side effects in "real time"


the american are threatning to vacinate 300, million in 12 months,  12 months is a bit late to discover it had problems.

there is a lot of deliberate  misinfomation about the vacine and claims its been adequayely tested is one such

the uk govenmebt has claimed that, and already had to alter its advice on who its safe for after only 48 hours, as data became available from citizens


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> How long is adequate? And how would you know?


here a BBC  article on of approval of the vacine Covid vaccine: US experts recommend Pfizer vaccine approval

the first few lines explain that they have decided the vacines benifits outway its risks

that clearly means there are indeed risks, 
from a scociety point of vew they may be correct.

from a personal perspective of choosing to have the vacine in preferance to an incredably small risk of death, things may not be so clear cut

thats largly because the infomation you require to make an informed opinion  is not freely available

leaving you with only a moral question

do you trust big pharma to put your well being ahead of trillions  of dollars of profit?  
do you trust govenment to put your well being a head of the well beibg of society.

as the reasonable answer to those is no, .....


----------



## jobo

just read an intresting article that the miniscule % of healthy young peopke who become very ill with the virus are not unlucky,  they have a rare gentic abnormality  ,  that causes a very serious over reaction in their imune response

it also seems possible that they may also be the ones  that have an extreme respibce to the vacine and so will be the ones who are not vaccinated

they have also discover a slightly less rare abnormality, as to why some people get the disease at all whilst others, most dont contract it or are at least asymtomatic

Covid: Genes hold clues to why some people get severely ill


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## Gerry Seymour

Thread locked.
_____________________
*Gerry Seymour
MartialTalk Moderator*
@gpseymour


----------

