# Front Kick - Side Kick Relationship



## kenpo3631 (Jun 25, 2002)

Has anyone else found the Front Kick-Side Kick relationship in the techniques based on the combo in Checking the Storm?:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 25, 2002)

The front kick side kick combination is seen in a few techniques, it is a very effective way for bridging the gap between you and the attacker.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *The front kick side kick combination is seen in a few techniques, it is a very effective way for bridging the gap between you and the attacker. *



Thanks for the wisdom cheif....LOL:rofl: 

I think many of us know that, but that's not the question.

I was hoping to see if others have found the common thread of the combination in the other techniques. Example, add a spinning back kick and reverse the combo (right leg -side kick, left leg front kick) you have a version of Aggressive Twins, change the foot positions and put it on the ground...Encounter w/Danger. See where I am going with this?:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
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I don't :shrug:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 25, 2002)

And if you look closely you can find it in Kicking set, if you are going to ask questionsask the full question, not a partial question leaving the topic too open.


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *And if you look closely you can find it in Kicking set, if you are going to ask questionsask the full question, not a partial question leaving the topic too open. *



Relax my Kenpo brother to the north....

You arte exaclty right...that is what I was trying to get from the other members of the forum. 

I'll try to word it different next time.:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 25, 2002)

I was just joking,  I too often forget a word or part of the sentence when posting on the forums and the questions become too open .


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
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> I don't :shrug: *





> I was hoping to see if others have found the common thread of the combination in the other techniques.



Kirk, 

The combo is from Checking the Storm. That kick combo is found in many other techniques in the system. I gave an example, so did Rob Broad.



> if you look closely you can find it in Kicking set






> Example, add a spinning back kick and reverse the combo (right leg -side kick, left leg front kick) you have a version of Aggressive Twins, change the foot positions and put it on the ground...Encounter w/Danger.



I just want  to see if others have noticed or even bothered to see such a simple relationship and if so were they able to expand upon it.:asian:


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## Doc (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *Has anyone else found the Front Kick-Side Kick relationship in the techniques based on the combo in Checking the Storm?:asian: *



As I've stated many times before, because of the interpretive nature of Motion-Kenpo, you must release the assumptions everyone does everything the same way you do. Add to that the differences in lineages as well as WHEN someone was taught something, you begin to realize all of these things have a direct impact on what and how you do things.

The interpretation I speak of that includes a "side kick" didn't surface until late into the eighties. Previous to that the technique featured a "chicken kick." Prior to that it was a completely different kick and technique that didn't exist.

At any rate if I may, the version I am going to assume you are speaking of, executes a front kick with the left leg and then "side kicks" with the right leg to the opponent's right knee, (and then tries to execute a back fist)

The kicking  mechanics used in most schools are horribly flawed and in fact dangerous to long term use/abuse of your body, especially in Kenpo. The list of senior martial artists of all styles and kenpo in particular who have had to have hip replacement surgery is growing rapidly, and will cintinue as time goes on unless proper mechanics are learned. 

Part of the problem is due to the fact their are almost no other physical endeavors that closely mimics the kicking seen in "karate" that is results driven. When it comes to throwing a ball, or running your body into another person, lifting a weight, etc. there are doctors/coaches/trainers with extensive knowledge of the "how" that is tested in serious performance competition everyday. I find it interesting most of the "karate" kicks disappear in results driven activities like "kick boxing."

In the scenario you present are some of the worse body mechanics ever presented in kicking in a technique. There is no viable relationship between the two in that particular scenario and circumstances. My SUGGESTION is to abandon the practice.

The problem is many of the kicks used in the martial arts have been misinterpeted over the years and many are relatively new. As a very big clue, if you go back to the old Chinese, kicks like the knife edge "side" as done by the Okinawan and Japanese didn't exist. Now we know the Chinese Science was all inclusive and was combined with their medicial and healing arts so their knowledge of human anatomy was extensive. Therefore if they didn't do something, there was a reason beyond cultural preferences. 

As another example, things like "makiwara training" came into being much later in other cultures. The Chinese "conditioned" their hands using various methods in conjuction with healing herbs and medicines. Later cultures simply and primitively "pounded and beat" their hands.


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## Sigung86 (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
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Bless you for those many well chosen words.  Just ever so slightly informative too! :lol:

Thanks,

Dan Farmer


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 25, 2002)

If I'm not mistaking had Encounter with Danger as a left front kick to the groin and a right roundhouse to the head, then a left thrusting back kick to any available target. This is just what I remember doing.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Dominic Jones (Jun 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
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Hello Doc

I believe that my kicks are OK, as I have had no injuries so far and they have power.  However, I am worried about teaching my kicks to my students.  How can I know that my body mechanics are sound? It doesn`t help that I`m in Japan; 12,000miles away from my teacher...

Regards Dominic


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## Klondike93 (Jun 25, 2002)

Prehaps you could send some video to your teacher for him/her to analyze. Maybe even by video e-mail or web cast.



:asian:


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## Sandor (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *Has anyone else found the Front Kick-Side Kick relationship in the techniques based on the combo in Checking the Storm?:asian: *



Ponskipper Lance do you mean like the kicks in Buckling Branch?


:asian:


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## Sandor (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> ...In the scenario you present are some of the worse body mechanics ever presented in kicking in a technique. There is no viable relationship between the two in that particular scenario and circumstances. My SUGGESTION is to abandon the practice...
> ...



Doc,

Just curious... What are your thoughts on Kicking Set?

Peace,
Sandor


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## Zoran (Jun 26, 2002)

Doc,

Do you have any reference material on how to perform kicks that is less damaging to the joints. Over the last few years, I have more than my share of hip pain. Recently I've modified my kicks to reduce the damage to my joints.

Thanks


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## Doc (Jun 26, 2002)

I think the first two kicking sets are quite good (EP implemented an Elementary Kick Set in my school that comes before what you know as KS-1) and if taught properly may teach good mechanics, however most teach them less than anatomically correct. Kicking Set Two (the one with all the chicken kicks) is awful and is mechanically unsound, and anatomically damaging. It was created like all the other "twos" to flesh out the commercial lesson plan more than anything else.


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## Doc (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
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> *Doc,
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The hip pain is defintely from improper antomical movement, and you are smart to modify whatever you are doing. The real damage doesn't show up for years and usually manifests itself untimately in hip replcement surgery. The warning signs are constant soreness and stiffness in the hip flexors no matter how much you stretch and train.

Given a couple of hours I could give you a lesson in footwork and kicking that would solve all your problems but  through the media that is tough at the moment.

Any physical endeavor that approches the complexity of what we do requires hands on and constant correction to insure proper function. The smart one like you figure if it hurts maybe I shouldn't be doing it no matter what "Master Chong" says.


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## Sigung86 (Jun 26, 2002)

Hi Doc,

Realize this is a bad medium to transfer knowledge, but I'm wondering if you could sort of/kind of give some insight into what you are talking about, let's say, for instance, with the roundhouse kick?

Maybe a general overview of where you are coming from might help with some thick folks level of understanding.

Thanks,

and WHY are all those fingers pointing at me? :lol:

Dan


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## kenpo3631 (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
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Ah yes, Mastah Sandah.... I am getting old and my memory fades from time to time...:rofl:

It was my belief that Buckling Branch and Checking the Storm use the same kicking sequences, the first (rear leg- front leg) and the latter (front leg-rear leg)...then again I covered that with Mr. Wedlake back in 1994. I have to review my notes... :asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jun 26, 2002)

I would be interested in hearing more about how to kick correctly.

Maybe just talk about the roundhouse kick as suggested earlier.


:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 26, 2002)

This topic is very interesting to me since I have really beat up my body over the years as a competitive gymnast.  I would love to be able to still walk properly when i am 70(if my wife lets me live that long)

I can see one of the problems associate with kicking is the pull on the joints.


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## Klondike93 (Jun 26, 2002)

Are you talking about as the kick goes out, it's pulling the joint out when it reaches it's target?


:asian:


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## Sandor (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
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hehe, I was there for that class...  I was thinking about it when I read your original post. 

The relationship he was working with us that day was something along the lines of;

Front kick (from front leg) landing in the crossover then side kick (rear leg)
Front Kick (from rear leg) landing in the crossover then side kick(front leg)
Side kick (from front leg) landing in crossover then front kick(rear leg)
Side kick(from rear leg) landing in crossover then front kick(rear leg)

That is the whole matrix for that category completion as far as I know. There were three elements in the sequence; front kick, side kick and crossover. I hope that helps.

Peace,
Sandor


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## Sandor (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *Are you talking about as the kick goes out, it's pulling the joint out when it reaches it's target?
> 
> ...




What I think they are refering to is the inevitable hyperextension of the joint that occurs when kicks are done repeatedly in the air versus actually hitting something. The mechanics of the two are different and will cause small tears in the soft tissues around the joints involved in the movement(tendons, ligaments and muscle heads). Punching in the air will eventually do the same type of damage but will take longer due to the fact that a persons arms are usually 1/3 as powerfull as their legs.

Peace,
Sandor


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## Klondike93 (Jun 26, 2002)

That was the impression I was getting from him too.  Having been in TKD for a long time you do a lot of kicking in the air, so you have to learn not to lock the kick out.  I have modified my round and side kicks to utilize my hips instead of the knee to extend the kick out. This has helped save my knees that last few years, and that you don't kick as much in kenpo.


:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *Are you talking about as the kick goes out, it's pulling the joint out when it reaches it's target?
> 
> ...



I was actually talking about kicks like the spinning hook or anything with a lot of torque.  I never lock the knee when kicking but the whipping action of some kicks can cause tearing of the cartlige.


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## Doc (Jun 27, 2002)

Sorry gentlemen but damage from kicks is not inevitable. Kicking in the air actually has nothing to do with it. It simply has to be done correctly and in harmony with body architecture. I have never had a student with an injury that was not impact induced. Not even a pulled muscle. Newbies, especially black belts from other disciplines develop cramps in the beginning.


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *Sorry gentlemen but damage from kicks is not inevitable. Kicking in the air actually has nothing to do with it. It simply has to be done correctly and in harmony with body architecture..*



Ok, Doc. I think I have a grasp on what you are getting at. Most of the kicks I've done in my limited chinese based studies have been variations on front kicks and rear kicks. Niether of which really push any of the joints involved in a excess of its intended mobility. Which, from what I am understanding by your posts, is more in line with the architecture of the body and the kinetics of the range of motion and types of motion involved in the particular kicks presented there.

Is that what you are getting at? Could you please elaborate a little more?:asian:

Peace,
Sandor


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## Doc (Jun 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
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You already did! But thrusting heels, side kicks, round kicks, and even knife edge kicks, spinning kicks, etc. can all be done safely, but you must be taught properly. The position of the foot at the time of the kick has a profound affect on the body as well. As an example most don't know that a "knife edge" kick to the side should never rise above your own hip flexor. The kick is designed to go down, not up as dictated by the foot position.


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## Sandor (Jun 27, 2002)

Cool Doc, I see what you are talking about. Thanks


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

Simply it's called ..... Proper Body Alignment.

:rofl: 

:asian:


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