# Do you have a personal Sil Lum Tao?



## lansao (Nov 30, 2016)

Hello all,

I learned in my training to treat the Sil Lum Tao as a dictionary of sorts. To use it essentially ensure I "never forget" while also providing a "wet stone" to sharpen hand positions and moving energy through my centerline.

That said, in addition to the Sil Lum Tao that I learned, and still practice separately, I indulge in the guilty pleasure of experimenting with it (adding symmetry in areas where I thought it useful, incorporating multiple interpretations of hand positions, etc.).

Do any other practitioners indulge in the same way? Do you have a personalized or customized Sil Lum Tao, Chum Kiu, Bil Gee, or Chi Sao set that you include in your practice?

Hope this is a fun question and look forward to hearing responses (even responses like "No. No, I do not do that. That you even asked... that you even asked, to me, is so deeply offensive... so very deeply offensive... you, sir, are a flat-footed ninny-booby)!

~ Alan


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## guy b (Dec 1, 2016)

lansao said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I learned in my training to treat the Sil Lum Tao as a dictionary of sorts. To use it essentially ensure I "never forget" while also providing a "wet stone" to sharpen hand positions and moving energy through my centerline.
> 
> ...



I think most people go over parts of SNT that they think important, and some have redesigned parts to emphasise certain aspects

What is your understanding of SNT?


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## lansao (Dec 1, 2016)

Off the top of my head here are some of my thoughts on it:

It catalogues the structure and central movement of foundational hand positions.
It let's you practice breathing along with those central movements.
It helps you sink into a rooted stance and learn how to relax your legs while maintaining structure (eiffel tower).
It can be practiced very slowly to give your nervous system time to record and train your muscle memory.
It can be practiced with rhythm and at variable speeds to help develop flow and timing.
There is not one true version of it as evidenced by the variety offered to practitioners.
It's symmetry helps your left arm correct itself with respect to your right and vice versa.
It is highly portable and can be practiced basically anywhere you can stand.
I'm sure if I sit here for the rest of the day more thoughts will come, but those are a few.

~ Alan


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## ShortBridge (Dec 1, 2016)

No, I haven't changed or personalized any forms. 

I do play them with different energies or while considering different things at various times. Sometimes it may be smoothness of transition, sometimes it may be energy expression, sometimes I do Si Lim Tao on one leg, etc.

But, I don't add or change things in the sequence.


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

lansao said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I learned in my training to treat the Sil Lum Tao as a dictionary of sorts. To use it essentially ensure I "never forget" while also providing a "wet stone" to sharpen hand positions and moving energy through my centerline.
> 
> ...



I've trained under two different lineages so I have a "personalized" SLT and CK which is a combination of the nuances from WSL and Ho Kam Ming. I keep telling myself I should look into how other lineages do their forms and see if I see anything I like that I can incorporate into mine.


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## lansao (Dec 7, 2016)

HW1 said:


> I've trained under two different lineages so I have a "personalized" SLT and CK which is a combination of the nuances from WSL and Ho Kam Ming. I keep telling myself I should look into how other lineages do their forms and see if I see anything I like that I can incorporate into mine.


Happy to exchange knowledge with you if you're interested.

~ Alan


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## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

HW1 said:


> I've trained under two different lineages so I have a "personalized" SLT and CK which is a combination of the nuances from WSL and Ho Kam Ming. I keep telling myself I should look into how other lineages do their forms and see if I see anything I like that I can incorporate into mine.



That's interesting

Can you highlight what you see as the main differences between HKM and WSL?


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## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

HW1 said:


> I've trained under two different lineages so I have a "personalized" SLT and CK which is a combination of the nuances from WSL and Ho Kam Ming.



That must have taken a ton of work if it still makes sense somehow.


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> That must have taken a ton of work if it still makes sense somehow.



Not really. It's more an amalgamation than combining the two. I just picked certain aspecs I like that one form does differently and used it in MY form to replace the other.


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## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

HW1 said:


> Not really. It's more an amalgamation than combining the two. I just picked certain aspecs I like that one form does differently and used it in MY form to replace the other.



Yeah, but as far as I've been able to tell, the two systems often contradict one another in strategy and tactics. What kind of things were you switching out?


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

lansao said:


> Happy to exchange knowledge with you if you're interested.
> 
> ~ Alan



Sure, but WC is not my primary style so you're probably more knowledgable than I am. Also, because I was in the military and moved a lot, I was never in one school long enough to learn past SLT, CK, and Mook Jong. I am missing the last form and the weapon forms in my WC.


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> That's interesting
> 
> Can you highlight what you see as the main differences between HKM and WSL?



It's been a while since I've differentiated my WC but A few things that come to mind are:
1. Shifting/Pivoting - WSL pivots on heels, HKM on balls of feet. I pivot somewhere on the middle, in front of the arch.
2. Bong - WSL is forward and rising, HKM is like forward and spearing. Mine's a combination of the two, kinda like swimming.
3. Bong & Step (CK) - HKM, at the end of third BongStep, the bong does an uppercut before the facing pivot. If I can remember correctly WSL just drops the elbow. I like the uppercut better because why not. It's one of the hardest punches to see and when I'm fighting close range, I want that in my toolbox.

That's just a few off the top of my head. Don't have time to write all because I'm at work.


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Yeah, but as far as I've been able to tell, the two systems often contradict one another in strategy and tactics. What kind of things were you switching out?



See my reply to Guy B.


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## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

HW1 said:


> HKM on balls of feet.



Joy, our resident HKM > Augustine Fong guy at the forum, says HKM lineage shifts on the heels too...?


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## HW1 (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Joy, our resident HKM > Augustine Fong guy at the forum, says HKM lineage shifts on the heels too...?


I can't agree nor disagree. It's just what I was taught.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 7, 2016)

In the Leung Sheung set there's tan>jum>tan>huen>palm strike. In others it's tan>gan>tan>huen>palm strike. I do tan>jum>tan>gan>tan>huen>palm strike, which I believe WSL does as well. There's a couple other things too but I'm on mobile and can't be assed to type it all out at the moment.


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## anerlich (Dec 8, 2016)

My instructor changed the way he performs the forms and dummy and swords to incorporate mainly front step / exchange step footwork rather than neutral / side neutral / pivoting stances. Our SLT contains more footwork than the regular TWC advanced SLT. He claims he witnessed his instructor perform all the forms this way as an alternative to what he taught in regular classes. He also observed that with nearly all of his compatriots who fought in the ring or elsewhere that tried to fight from a foot parallel stance, that they either went rapidly backwards into the ropes or dropped into a front stance position.

IMO this is also a better fit with my understanding of base, posture and structure in standup wrestling.

I believe the forms should be passed on as set down by the instructor in a "canonical" form. However, I also believe that the forms are frameworks in which creativity should be encouraged as long as fundamental principles of the particular form or set are not violated. These are frameworks, not stone tablets. 

Try them backwards, upside down, inside out and on the other side. Substitute footwork and movements, etc. including those from other styles, including the imagination. Most of it is impractical but if you don't experiment, you will never find out.

As part of an advanced grading I was tasked with developing a new form and two new dummy sets. Some time, you have to stop walking in everyone else's footsteps and actually explore.


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## LFJ (Dec 8, 2016)

Marnetmar said:


> I do tan>jum>tan>gan>tan>huen>palm strike, which I believe WSL does as well.



WSL kept both as separate sections.



anerlich said:


> As part of an advanced grading I was tasked with developing a new form and two new dummy sets.



What was the point of that? To create new applications or combos of moves, or did you create new techniques all together?


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## anerlich (Dec 8, 2016)

LFJ said:


> What was the point of that? To create new applications or combos of moves, or did you create new techniques all together?



Neither.

(I've decided to adopt the LFJ / guyb posting style)


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## anerlich (Dec 8, 2016)

LFJ said:


> What was the point of that? To create new applications or combos of moves, or did you create new techniques all together?



Actually a little of both plus more. Creativity, we were encouraged to use combat principles from other systems or elsewhere and see what could be integrated into the canon.


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## LFJ (Dec 8, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Creativity, we were encouraged to use combat principles from other systems or elsewhere and see what could be integrated into the canon.



Seems to be a lot of that in WC.


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## guy b (Dec 8, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Actually a little of both plus more. Creativity, we were encouraged to use combat principles from other systems or elsewhere and see what could be integrated into the canon.



All good if you are open about it. Problem comes when that kind of thing gets lost in the mists of time


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

lansao said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I learned in my training to treat the Sil Lum Tao as a dictionary of sorts. To use it essentially ensure I "never forget" while also providing a "wet stone" to sharpen hand positions and moving energy through my centerline.
> 
> ...


 
I was learning in the Ip Ching lineage for a long time. Now I have switched to Leung Sheung. So far, the Sifu there has shown me only how they do Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu. However, I also know Biu Jee and Mook Jong from the other lineage. However, I understand enough about the new lineage where I can make an accurate guess as to how they would do the other two forms.

There are some things I prefer from the Ip Ching lineage still. For example in Chum Kiu at the end of the lan sao-side kick-step with bong sao and wu sao section, the Leung Sheung lineage does something that the Sifu calls a "fold." (It's hard to explain; if I were home and had a camera, I would upload a video.) However, I prefer to turn and punch like in the Ip Ching lineage.

The best thing about it is that my Leung Sheung lineage Sifu has next to no ego when it comes to things like that. He isn't going to kick me out of his class simply because I am not doing it "his" way.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 3, 2017)

I filled that previous post with a lot of "however's." LOL Need to edit first next time.


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## wayfaring (Jan 3, 2017)

To answer the question "Do I have a personal SLT/SNT?"

We have a distinction in our family between SLT and SNT - the difference between training a Sanda approach and a system approach.  We have a concept called sup ming dim - 10 bright points.  These have to do with your own internal inherent structure.  They are why our SNT form shows specific components of height, width, depth, for example.  They are also reflected in our fundamentals called the Wing Chun Formula.

Sup ming dim also carries a component of Buddhist philosophy, in that the true way you establish your own structure is through a sense of exploring its end points.  

So with that framework of concept established, my answer to that question is "yes, I have a personalized SNT".  It is personalized to the extent I explore sup ming dim and learn to maintain that structure under live pressure.


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