# Martial Arts? It's BS.



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 24, 2011)




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## Sukerkin (Nov 24, 2011)

Good episode - well pretty much all their ******** episodes are good.  Admittedly it hits hardest at one of my pet hates, which is MA training run as a business but it still sticks pins almost everywhere .


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 24, 2011)

I was surprised Dillman wasn't featured, but National Geographic already nailed him.


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## WC_lun (Nov 24, 2011)

I honestly don't mind schools run as a bussiness.  What I mind is when they say they are teaching something they are not, for instance those that teach students utter crap and tell them it is self-defense training.  In that case it is fraud, and like any bussiness committing fraud, they should be shut down.  Just a peeve of mine and yes, I know there would be no way of really implementing such a thing.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2011)

Well, I admit I only watched a couple minutes of the 2nd video.  I'm sorry, I can't take any more.  I've disliked Penn Jillette for years.  I don't think he's funny, I don't think he's smart, and his snotty attitude pisses me off.  I like it when it was the Penn & Teller magic show.  He's good at that.  Nothing else.

What I did not like from what little I saw was the one-sided approach and out-of-context sound bites.  Hmmm, at my dojo, belts cost $10.  So I guess I'm being 'ripped off' because I've paid a grand total of $40 in three years for promotions. Whoo, somebody call a cop.  And my $50 a month dues, clearly I'm being had.  And the fact that the owner nor the black belts who teach draw a salary but do it out of their love for Isshin-Ryu; wow, clearly they're being brainwashed.  I sometimes bring in bottled water or cleaning towels for the dojo out of my own pocket; what a scam!

Penn Jillette can kiss my pucker.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, I admit I only watched a couple minutes of the 2nd video.  I'm sorry, I can't take any more.  I've disliked Penn Jillette for years.  I don't think he's funny, I don't think he's smart, and his snotty attitude pisses me off.  I like it when it was the Penn & Teller magic show.  He's good at that.  Nothing else.
> 
> What I did not like from what little I saw was the one-sided approach and out-of-context sound bites.  Hmmm, at my dojo, belts cost $10.  So I guess I'm being 'ripped off' because I've paid a grand total of $40 in three years for promotions. Whoo, somebody call a cop.  And my $50 a month dues, clearly I'm being had.  And the fact that the owner nor the black belts who teach draw a salary but do it out of their love for Isshin-Ryu; wow, clearly they're being brainwashed.  I sometimes bring in bottled water or cleaning towels for the dojo out of my own pocket; what a scam!
> 
> Penn Jillette can kiss my pucker.



Like you said, you only watched a couple minutes of the first video. Watch it in the entirety, and you might find yourself agreeing with a number of points they make, though probably not all.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 25, 2011)

If I made a Video saying that Wing Chun had Low Kicks, and made it slightly funny, would someone make a Forum Thread about it? 

All Sarcasm aside, I cant really say it was worth My Time. Not because of all the Lines about MA; Ill rip on MA any day for a Giggle. I just didnt find it Funny. Its probably just not My kind of Humor.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Like you said, you only watched a couple minutes of the first video. Watch it in the entirety, and you might find yourself agreeing with a number of points they make, though probably not all.



I'm not watching one more second of that drivel.  I started the 2nd video at random and watched Jillette do voice-over taking apart everything that was said by an apparently-earnest Isshin-Ryu instructor.  Everything the instructor was saying was correct; it jibes with my understanding as well.  And Jillette took the sound bites he wanted and left the rest, so the entire thing was out-of-context.  That's crap, and I won't have it.   Penn Jillette can introduce it straight up his jaxie.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2011)

So Bill. The woman making the chicken sounds in there's a legit representative of the Chinese arts? 


Here's my take on it all.
The chicken ladies a bit wacky. And I believe in chi.
The Karate guy knows a lot of parlor tricks. I want to see him withstand a tip strike from a 2x3, not one waaaaaay back where there's no power and the whipping action causes the board to stress fracture.
I don't want to run into Marc in a dark alley.



I think their whole point is, there's a lot of BS out there, and uneducated folks fall for it. Some folks pull weird stuff out of their 'jaxie' and make a living selling it to clueless folks. Some of it's legit.

In short, nothing we don't already know here. 
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to watch them spank some cheerleaders. :s408:


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 25, 2011)

Now wait a minute. How do you claim it to be drivel if you haven't watched the whole thing? That is a scholarly and intellectually bankrupt method. Were you to actually watch it, you could _show_ how it is drivel. I don't agree that it is, but I have watched the whole thong. I can tell you the partake I take issue with and the parts I think are spot on. You can't.  Do we go through life watching only that which we do jot find objectionable? Frankly, Bill, if it were a number of other posters, I might just let it slide, saying nothing. But you are better than that. You are definitely smarter than that. So you know if it is worth posting about, it is worth watching through, so you can post from a standpoint of informed dissent.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Now wait a minute. How do you claim it to be drivel if you haven't watched the whole thing? That is a scholarly and intellectually bankrupt method. Were you to actually watch it, you could _show_ how it is drivel. I don't agree that it is, *but I have watched the whole thong.* I can tell you the partake I take issue with and the parts I think are spot on. You can't.  Do we go through life watching only that which we do jot find objectionable? Frankly, Bill, if it were a number of other posters, I might just let it slide, saying nothing. But you are better than that. You are definitely smarter than that. So you know if it is worth posting about, it is worth watching through, so you can post from a standpoint of informed dissent.



I see Josh skipped ahead to the cheerleaders too.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Now wait a minute. How do you claim it to be drivel if you haven't watched the whole thing? That is a scholarly and intellectually bankrupt method. Were you to actually watch it, you could _show_ how it is drivel. I don't agree that it is, but I have watched the whole thong. I can tell you the partake I take issue with and the parts I think are spot on. You can't.  Do we go through life watching only that which we do jot find objectionable? Frankly, Bill, if it were a number of other posters, I might just let it slide, saying nothing. But you are better than that. You are definitely smarter than that. So you know if it is worth posting about, it is worth watching through, so you can post from a standpoint of informed dissent.



Your complaint would be valid if I had no previous experience with Penn Jillette.  But this is simply on top of a long set of negative experiences I have had with this smarmy, snarky, a-hole.  His intellect is put to the use of making other people look stupid for the amusement of his audience.  I have no interest in subjecting myself to the entire thing and I won't do it.  When the milk is sour, you do not drink the entire carton to be sure it's all gone off.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I think their whole point is, there's a lot of BS out there, and uneducated folks fall for it. Some folks pull weird stuff out of their 'jaxie' and make a living selling it to clueless folks. Some of it's legit.



The short bit I saw strongly that it was unethical and immoral for an Isshin-Ryu instructor to have his students mop floors or teach without pay; this directly after inferring (but cleverly not libelously stating outright) that such instructors make thousands of dollars from promotions and awarding worthless 'belts' that can be purchase outright for huge sums of money inside of a year.  By intertwining the McDojo belt mills that we martial artists know about with video and audio clips from what appears to be a legitimate Isshin-Ryu dojo, the strong impression is given (intentionally) that all martial arts are frauds, that as the title states, martial arts are ********.  Well, screw that noise.


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## oaktree (Nov 25, 2011)

I watched the video and though there are some valid points brought up by Marc the animal Macyoung I feel the video is heavily biased.

 I think the Karate school was a typical Mcdojo so of course you are going to get B.S.

 I think the old lady is typical New-ager so of course you get B.S. However some of those Qigong exercises such as moving up and and down does have a relaxing effect on the muscles. I found the guy who beat on the BOB doll with the knife in its head to be decent but a little agressive.

I don't think it proves Martial arts is B.S. I think it proves the claims that these particular people claim are B.S.

I recall in the first minute of the clip how if someone is holding you at gun point then you should just give them your wallet of course the majority of Martial artist agree! Of course we agree run away as soon as possible but there are chances were the person wants to kill you or rape you then training in Martial arts may give you that chance to survive and I know I rather have a slim chance of survival then no chance at all.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So Bill. The woman making the chicken sounds in there's a legit representative of the Chinese arts?
> 
> 
> Here's my take on it all.
> ...



First off, does your job regularly involve spanking cheerleaders?

If so.... Are you hiring?

Second, I agree with you. I also want to point out the story where Penn poured his milkshake on his head to avoid a fight. It is one of those concepts we don't talk about enough: stopping a fight before it starts. 

Last Wednesday, I was out with my best friend, who is wheelchair bound due to cerebral palsy, and his smoking hot girlfriend who doesn't believe she is, in fact, smoking hot. This guy at the bar caught her attention and started hitting on her. He just would not leave her alone, and you could tell she was getting uncomfortable. I rush over to help extract her, and before I even get there he throws his pool stick to the ground, puffs out his chest like he is prepping to fight. So, coming up with something on the spot, I blurt out, "Dude, what did you say to her?"

I am pretty sure he expected a punch instead of a question. He maintains his aggro posture, and says, "I said she was hot, what of it". (This conversation is being edited, with swear words removed)

As if I expected the answer all along, I say "I knew it! Me and her boyfriend have been telling her that for MONTHS and she just doesn't get it. Thank you!"

I hold out my fist for him to bump it, and he does, in a confused manner. "Dude, you just became my new friend!"

He still is in aggro mode, and says, " forget you, man (again, this is edited). I ain't your darn friend".

Not skipping a beat, I say, "It's all good man, we're cool, we're cool". 

I go get our drinks and head back to our table. My best friend is heated and ready to cut the guy, both for hitting on his girl. Seeing as I knew he WOULD cut the guy given the chance, I say, "don't worry, man I got this. Keep watching." 

I ran into the guy again and got his name (though I can't remember it now) and every time I pass by him, give him a fist bump or something. Halfway through the night he is singing karaoke with me. At some point I go out to smoke, and he comes out asking if he can talk to the girl, saying he's really not a jerk, apologizing for the way he acted. He even called me sir! 

I said it was no problem, just as long as he knows if he laid hands on her, she'd cut him. 

At the end of the night he stopped trying to pursue the girl, apologized to my friend and told him he was a lucky man, and took off. No drama, no fighting, no problems.

Could I have taken him? Yeah, I am pretty sure, but why do it? Once you are in their head you have already won the battle. And yes, if pouring a soda on my head would have been necessary I would have done that too. 

This is where I can definitely agree with Penn.

He also covers board breaking as a borderline parlor trick. We all know it is. It takes very little training to break 5 boards with spacers. And I think they showed that effectively.

Chicken Laugh Girl, who talks to her organs? Yeah... All I can say is WTF to that. 

I am on the fence about how well they covered the two specifically self-defense instructors. But the statiscic they said about 100% of martial artists getting injured is crap. I know plenty of people who had zero injuries from martial arts training. I can't claim I am one of them, but there wee more than enough people who do not get injured.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I see Josh skipped ahead to the cheerleaders too.



Well, yeah!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## poollshark (Nov 25, 2011)

I agree, you HAVE to watch it to have an opinion. Mine is, they had an agenda when they started filming the episode and they kept to that agenda, misleading as it may be.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Your complaint would be valid if I had no previous experience with Penn Jillette.  But this is simply on top of a long set of negative experiences I have had with this smarmy, snarky, a-hole.  His intellect is put to the use of making other people look stupid for the amusement of his audience.  I have no interest in subjecting myself to the entire thing and I won't do it.  When the milk is sour, you do not drink the entire carton to be sure it's all gone off.



Impossible to drink from a milk carton starting from the middle (not without screwing up the carton in the first place anyway).

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2011)

I haven't seen them before and I have to say I find them unwatchable. I don't like their style at all, I like a documentary to have more gravitas and not treat the watchers as stupid.
My daughter the cheerleading coach, blackbelt and MMA fighter thanks you for the comments lol!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 25, 2011)

Didnt watch it, not going to, dont care I dont need their validation

But I will say I like Teller better than Penn.... Penn talks to much.


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## JohnEdward (Nov 25, 2011)

I will probably be kicked off the board for this, having an opinion. I don't live the martial arts lie. No chi or ki fantasy sucker b.s. No "*****" renfair pretend what "ifs."  No delusional Oprah self defense crap. No Koolaid MMA fighter macho lies. No keyboard warrior crap.  I live in Texas, I own guns. Lots of them. I know the law and I know how to use them. The most effective waza is a gun, and everyone can use a gun. Some better than others.  Some have access and legally carry them and some don't.   All the nambie pambies who think their MMA to Ninja skills will save their *** think twice, the ******* punk robbing you threatening your life with gun, bat, knife, isn't a black belt in MMA or Ninjitsu B.S.  

Penn and Teller have it right....any responsible martial arts instructor would tell you the same. 

The number one rule in the self defense of Mother Nature is.....awareness
The number two rule is not making yourself vulnerable to the opportunity of an attack - don't be a target
The number three rule is there is a cost to engagement win or lose

Penn said it well, if confronted like he was suck up your ego, remove the chip on your shoulder and pour a milk shake on your head. 
Fact, women who are raped will fight back more successfully the second time, some will kill their rapist. And it isn't attributed to martial arts or self defense training. 

You are more likely to be killed or hurt trying some ******** martial art, MMA move on a street criminal. Because they are B.S. moves, and the "martial artist" is just that an "artist" or sport fighter. Not someone experienced in being threatened with your life.   Real life isn't the movies or a sports venue. Here is the goddamn facts, street criminals run in packs. You're not attacked by one, or two, but by three and four criminals that are often armed......

IF engaged in self-defense situation and you don't have a gun, can't run, or avoid the situation, years of Kata, or rolling on the mat isn't going to save you from an ***-whooping etc. when faced with a SINGLE attacker. What will save you from an ***-whooping or worse is, things like determination, strong will, commitment, everything non-martial arts trained criminals use. Things martial arts really can't give you a "black belt" in.  Street criminals don't spend $$$$ earning a black belt. They don't spend hours training hundreds of deadly moves. The don't roll on the mat. They are more successful with out all that B.S. think about that. 

Awareness and avoidance are proven techniques, and not B.S. martial arts techniques, ask Mother Nature if you don't believe me.   Remember in martial art is the word _*ART*_. 

Go ahead,  troll's and hacks, flame me because you disagree, complain and whine to the board Admin. They are pissed at me anyone for the same reasons, and instead of flaming me they just exercise their power to restrict me from posting, silencing my voice thus allowing other to continue to flame and harass me. Quite the characters.  Go ahead, stop me from post here because I don't take troll's and flamer's crap and throw it back at them.  Go ahead and label me as a troll as a result of knee jerk reactions to reading my posts. As this is my last post here in this bizarre twisted world of so many key board warriors, trolls and hacks.


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## poollshark (Nov 25, 2011)

I agree with most of what you wrote John. I will say however that if I am confronted with a situation where I have no avenue of retreat or escape and I'm forced into a physical altercation my MA/SD training can be the difference maker. I know I am certainly better off with my training than without. I know this from experience.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> I will probably be kicked off the board for this, having an opinion....
> Go ahead,  troll's and hacks, flame me because you disagree, complain and whine to the board Admin. They are pissed at me anyone for the same reasons, and instead of flaming me they just exercise their power to restrict me from posting, silencing my voice thus allowing other to continue to flame and harass me. Quite the characters.  Go ahead, stop me from post here because I don't take troll's and flamer's crap and throw it back at them.  Go ahead and label me as a troll as a result of knee jerk reactions to reading my posts. As this is my last post here in this bizarre twisted world of so many key board warriors, trolls and hacks.



*Admin Note:*
John was 'kicked off' after he had already quit (based on his blanking of his profile and comments posted on it by him). He, and everyone here is welcome to their opinions. He is upset because his access to the Womens area was removed after he trolled it and repeatedly violated policy. 
We have rules. 
So we wish him well in his future endeavors. 

Mean while, subject here is the P&T BS episode on martial arts. Lets stick to that.
Thanks.


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## Ironcrane (Nov 25, 2011)

I think I'm going to have to agree with those who call bs on this video about bs. They're not pulling out the nuttiest people they can find to demonstrate that there are some Martial Artists that aren't all they're cracked up to be. They're using those fringe people to show that Martial Arts is bs. Every single bit of it. They also took things out of context, when it came to students helping their own school, and twisted it to suit their agenda.
I've been put in charge of teaching classes, and I've stayed after to help clean the place up. And I even pay fees to do it. And I do it all because I care about my Martial Arts school, and respect the fact that said school still has to pay rent.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 25, 2011)

Of course there were parts of this which twisted and distorted and otherwise made ridicule of certain parts of martial arts - it's supposed to be an entertaining rant after all.  It made me laugh and I've been involved in martial arts since I was a teenager.  Some nails were hit on the head and some were bent over by the hammer because they missed the point (or should that be "head" in this case ).

Loony instructors, crazy pseudo-arts, exploitative schools ... all these things exist.  If I was to try to treat it as serious journalism I would say, certainly, what they did was not balanced and they took some extremes to stand for the whole (kind of like people getting hot under the collar about the OWS malarkey based on a few 'data points').

Have a chuckle, smile and nod at the bits that are true and shake your head at those that aren't and go and watch "Enter the Dojo" :lol:.


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## Sanke (Nov 25, 2011)

I'm more a fan of Penn and Teller's style, but I can see why allot of others aren't. Penn's voice can get awfully grating at times...

When I watched this, it was some time ago with some fellow students of mine, and we spent parts laughing, parts agreeing, and parts yelling at the screen. 
There's some good points, a few rubbish points, though I feel their biases ended up ruling the episode (if not the whole series) and it ended up being a pretty skewed picture. 

I personally don't think people really need to watch the show to have an opinion on the matter. 
The subjects they cover are quite broad, and most, if not all have come across them. The show just lays them out with a very specific agenda, I can see why people wouldn't want to sit through a half hour of what they already know. 


Sanke on the move.


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## Sanke (Nov 25, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Have a chuckle, smile and nod at the bits that are true and shake your head at those that aren't and go and watch "Enter the Dojo" :lol:.



Sounds like a fun evening in 



Sanke on the move.


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So Bill. The woman making the chicken sounds in there's a legit representative of the Chinese arts?
> 
> 
> Here's my take on it all.
> ...




I don't want to run into Marc MacYoung in a bright alley... or anywhere else.  

The series this was lifted from had an agenda -- and each episode had an agenda.  Penn Jillette has lots of agendas -- but most of them can be summed up by "think for yourself."  From many accounts -- he'd probably congratulate bill for disliking him.

The episode wasn't all bad -- but it did go overboard on a few points, and (as usual), it cherry picked quotes.  Anyone asked to appear on that show that was shocked by that didn't do their homework...


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The short bit I saw strongly that it was unethical and immoral for an Isshin-Ryu instructor to have his students mop floors or teach without pay; this directly after inferring (but cleverly not libelously stating outright) that such instructors make thousands of dollars from promotions and awarding worthless 'belts' that can be purchase outright for huge sums of money inside of a year. By intertwining the McDojo belt mills that we martial artists know about with video and audio clips from what appears to be a legitimate Isshin-Ryu dojo, the strong impression is given (intentionally) that all martial arts are frauds, that as the title states, martial arts are ********. Well, screw that noise.



But, Bill, aren't there indeed instructors that DO do just that?  Use senior students as unpaid and often paying employees?  Charging students dues, testing fees, promotional fees, and requiring various club memberships?  Yeah -- there are.  This particular guy may have been made the scapegoat for all those others, but if he didn't do any checking into what he was about to appear on, well... shame on him.  I'd be damn careful what they asked me to do on that show, or several others.


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2011)

What other subjects have been done by these two and were the conclusions the same ie people unknowingly being 'ripped off' and made to look stupid by this?


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## kbarrett (Nov 25, 2011)

I don't know this person, but as I watch the video, there are so good and bad points being made, I have no prblem with any one making martial arts a business or a living from teaching martail arts, because I do like many others. I think martial arts training can be effective for self-defesnse, it all depends on the person training and the quality of the instruction, you can't just glide along the surface of any MA, you must dive deep into that MA to understand how things will or won't work in a live attack on the street, where there are no rules, MA works it's up to you the student to make it work, and the instructor making sure you understand what it is your learning and the difference between the dojang (dojo) and the streets.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett


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## Sukerkin (Nov 25, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> What other subjects have been done by these two and were the conclusions the same ie people unknowingly being 'ripped off' and made to look stupid by this?



With 'reality' TV of any stripe, I find it hard to fathom why people go on it ... but they do.  It's Penn and Teller and a series called "********!", not Newsnight.  If people didn't know beforehand what they were letting themselves in for I'd be quite surprised. Especially given the litigious nature of the USA I would have thought the producers would have made very clear there was a considerable chance of personal embarrassment.

Also, in the end, as I said before, most of what was covered was not wrong, just couched in a piss-taking fashion and applied with a broad brush.  

I'm quite surprised that you, of all people, is taking umbrage at it given that you associate with 'professional' piss-takers in your off-duty activities .


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## jron (Nov 25, 2011)

poollshark said:


> I agree, you HAVE to watch it to have an opinion. Mine is, they had an agenda when they started filming the episode and they kept to that agenda, misleading as it may be.



Inflated confidence, BS board breaking spot on.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> But, Bill, aren't there indeed instructors that DO do just that?  Use senior students as unpaid and often paying employees?  Charging students dues, testing fees, promotional fees, and requiring various club memberships?  Yeah -- there are.  This particular guy may have been made the scapegoat for all those others, but if he didn't do any checking into what he was about to appear on, well... shame on him.  I'd be damn careful what they asked me to do on that show, or several others.



BS.  None of the instructors in our dojo get paid, and students clean and perform other work for the dojo.  And it's because the dojo does not charge enough to pay salaries to instructors and hired cleaning staff; but the owner draws no pay either; it's essentially non-profit.  Since we're also Isshin-Ryu, I presume this is their circumstance as well.  And the show didn't say "Oh, here are a collection of actions which may or may not be naughty and fraudulent."  No, it flat-out stated that this guy, he's a fraud.  Look how he makes a fortune (which it implied, but did not state outright) and makes his students perform slave labor for him.  That's not instructive, that's not accurate, and it sure as hell is not going to leave non-martial arts viewers with an open mind about martial arts training, including this dojo, whose instructor he just made out to be a crook.  **** PENN JILLETTE in the ear.  BS, BS, BS.  It's slanderous and fricking evil.  If I met Penn Jillette on the street, I'd spit in his ****ing eye.


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## Carol (Nov 25, 2011)

Penn Jillette is a commanding speaker, but just because he says something doesn't mean it is an undisputed fact.  Remember, they are illusionists.  When he says something, it is because he wants you to believe it is an  undisputed fact, not that it IS an undisputed fact. (Talk about BS!)

One example, on the second Captain Howdy album, Penn talks about Harry Houdini's favorite song, Rosabelle.  They discussed performing the song, and how it took a search going all the way to the Library of Congress, where they finally found the sheet music in a box labeled "1890s".   This doesn't pass the sniff test!  The sheet music can be found online at the NY Public Library's site.  The song they performed was not from the sheet music, a few lines were either misheard or deliberately changed...so when they were presented to Debbie Harry to change, she sang the wrong words.  Three, the words she sang might be more consistent with the language of today, but not the language of 100 years ago -- while the sheet music is consistent with the language of 100 years ago (but not necessarily today).

I'll comment more once I have watched both videos in their entirety.


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## jron (Nov 25, 2011)

do you teach sport fighting or a self defense regimine. What are your thoughts about the "murder charges" for the self defense school, I'm thinking that one was maybe krav maga or something similar?


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## Em MacIntosh (Nov 25, 2011)

It's an act.  

Penn seems to be arrogant, self-righteous and obtuse but I think he's just another guy trying to make a living.  Penn reminds me of Michael Moore, a businessman who appears passionate about his points but just treats it as a means to an end, the end being money.  His interest in "debunking" is as big as the cheque he makes off it.  As illusionists I suspect Penn and Teller have at least done some research, if not study, in the martial arts (Ninjitsu?) and are well aware of their situational and overall usefulness.  

Mythbusters are more fun anyway, they have Kari and they blow stuff up.


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> With 'reality' TV of any stripe, I find it hard to fathom why people go on it ... but they do. It's Penn and Teller and a series called "********!", not Newsnight. If people didn't know beforehand what they were letting themselves in for I'd be quite surprised. Especially given the litigious nature of the USA I would have thought the producers would have made very clear there was a considerable chance of personal embarrassment.
> 
> Also, in the end, as I said before, most of what was covered was not wrong, just couched in a piss-taking fashion and applied with a broad brush.
> 
> I'm quite surprised that you, of all people, is taking umbrage at it given that you associate with 'professional' piss-takers in your off-duty activities .



I didn't so much take umbrage as shake my head, I've never seen or actually heard of these people before, I thought it was supposed to be serious and thought their style was the 'dumbing down' thing I've seen before in some American programmes that purport to be serious commentary.


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## poollshark (Nov 26, 2011)

jron said:


> Inflated confidence, BS board breaking spot on.



Minor points, their agenda was to paint the entire MA community with one broad stroke as a rip off, money making(for owners) waste of time(for students). While there are plenty of schools that fit this description, there are many that don't.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 26, 2011)

poollshark said:


> Minor points, their agenda was to paint the entire MA community with one broad stroke as a rip off, money making(for owners) waste of time(for students). While there are plenty of schools that fit this description, there are many that don't.


As I would put it, they found 'Proof' to Support their Concept, Ignoring anything to the Contrary. They found only Good Examples to Support their Sweeping Statements.
Like what they said about Manslaughter in Self Defense. It doesnt work that way, at all. Youre not just going to Autopilot into Murder. Youre more likely to do that WITHOUT Training, I feel.


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## Champ-Pain (Nov 26, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I honestly don't mind schools run as a bussiness.  What I mind is when they say they are teaching something they are not, for instance those that teach students utter crap and tell them it is self-defense training.  In that case it is fraud, and like any bussiness committing fraud, they should be shut down.  Just a peeve of mine and yes, I know there would be no way of really implementing such a thing.


 I run my school as a business - and I make money by doing so. As much as I love Martial Arts - Judo, BJJ and No Gi Submission Grappling, specifically - I would shut down my school, in a heartbeat - if I ever took a loss... Having said that, I also run a very successful and competetive club, with many Champion students in both Judo and Grappling, with and without the Gi - but even if I had 0 (zero) Champion students, I'd stay open, as long as it remains a profitable business. Being succesful, both in making money and producing many Champions, as well, makes it that much more fun for me. The having fun part, is the whip cream with a cherry on top.


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## Balrog (Nov 26, 2011)

Most of the time, P&T are fairly accurate.  They missed the mark by a mile on this one, though.  I love their magic show and I think they should stick to that.  And Penn?  Come train with me for a year.  You look like you could use it, and it will change your point of view.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 26, 2011)

Some of their 'experts' are quite questionable.  They've brought in the twit that runs Quackwatch a few times as a medical expert.  Some of their stuff is spot on, some of it's for shear entertainment value.

I do however like the idea of models earning a black apron while training topless, and may steal that for a photo shoot idea next year. 

The thing is is that on some subjects, they stop all the joking and get real serious. Parts of the cheer leading episode for example they were hard on the industry for not doing more to protect the girls. The drug episode they took the government to task for failing it's job. Etc.

The complaint about schools taking advantage of their students is not new.  1 local school by me has a reputation as requiring all involved to 'contribute'. Your kid doesn't get a chance to test unless you've been an 'involved parent', meaning mom worked the bake sale and dad helped put new gear together.  

Yes, their bias's show through, yes it's entertainment, not documentary, but in there are some solid truths.  Of course if -I- thought martial arts were all BS we wouldn't be having this chat huh?   (BTW, Xmas discount on sokeships, grandmaster status and founderships, contact me for details.  )


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 26, 2011)

Actually, I am not a fan of the expectation that students provide free work. When I ran a dojo, only my paid assistants cleaned. Any time students helped out at an exhibition, demo, etc. I would give them extra training as compensation. First off, it helps me remind myself that I am their servant, not the other way around. Second, to me, it's unethical, as my primary driving ethic is TANSTAAFL.


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## jks9199 (Nov 26, 2011)

There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student.  I don't have a problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship.  But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on...  Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors --   those are the cases that I have a problem with.  The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!  

On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different.  In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club.  But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.


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## Carol (Nov 26, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student.  I don't have a problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship.  But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on...  Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors --   those are the cases that I have a problem with.  The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!
> 
> On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different.  In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club.  But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.




Gotta disagree with this one.  What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor?  Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws?  Or child labor laws?   If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.


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## clfsean (Nov 26, 2011)

Eh... I lump Penn in with the likes if not outright company of Michael Moore.

His bodyguards know some kind of unarmed martial something. He should call BS on them & see how long the $$$ will keep him from harm.

****.


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## Buka (Nov 26, 2011)

I used to wash the floor of my first dojo on a regular basis. (I used to feel like Caine, on Kung Fu.) When I started doing it every week, my Instructor gave me my own key. I was up there at all hours, it was grand! 
As a teacher, when my some of my students started teaching - at the very least, they would never pay tuition again. Most of them didn't offer to clean the dojo floor, but some did. I never asked those kind of things from them, purposely. What I did ask for was effort. All of it they had.


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 27, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> There are some traditional exercises that serve to clean the floor and strengthen the student.  I don't have a problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with clearly defined student teaching/apprenticeship.  But when the student who happens to be an accountant is expected to keep the books for a commercial training hall, and the guy who happens to be a lawyer providing legal guidance, and so on...  Or when paying students are expected to be teaching many of the classes, without supervision and guidance from the head instructors --   those are the cases that I have a problem with.  The owner is taking in the money, almost hand over fist in the worst or most flagrant cases, and keeping costs down because the "employees" are paying for the privilege!
> 
> On a non- (or even less) commercial club or training hall, it's a bit different.  In that setting, yes, members are expected to contribute their talents and skills to supporting the club.  But in that setting, the dues are usually rather lower than the commercial dojo, and it's a very different set-up from the ground up.



Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 27, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.


I have no problems with someone making good money out of martial arts instruction. No one seems to mind that tennis coaches, golf coaches, guitar teaches etc etc make good money out of teaching their trade, so why is it so wrong for a martial arts instructor to do well out of their job financially. My instructor makes great money out of teaching MA, its his full time job and only charges $50 a month. As long as what he charges is competitive I couldnt care less what he makes. Actually he is a very good, passionate instructor who gives his all, so if anything I think he deserves to make good coin.


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have no problems with someone making good money out of martial arts instruction. No one seems to mind that tennis coaches, golf coaches, guitar teaches etc etc make good money out of teaching their trade, so why is it so wrong for a martial arts instructor to do well out of their job financially. My instructor makes great money out of teaching MA, its his full time job and only charges $50 a month. As long as what he charges is competitive I couldnt care less what he makes. Actually he is a very good, passionate instructor who gives his all, so if anything I think he deserves to make good coin.



Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 27, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park


....and no one has a problem with them charging that, yet if a martial artist with 30 years experience makes any money out of teaching his trade, then theres something wrong.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 27, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park





ralphmcpherson said:


> ....and no one has a problem with them charging that, yet if a martial artist with 30 years experience makes any money out of teaching his trade, then theres something wrong.



Yep. Ive seen this a few times. I mean, if it were several hundred Years ago, it wouldnt be too bad. But nowadays, Martial Arts, no matter what System it is, or why Youre Learning it, are something You do, that another Person is going to Teach You, who needs Money to Survive. And thats the way I see it.

EDIT:
Infact, lemme name an Example.
Recently, I saw someone wearing larger-than-usual Boxing Gloves punching a Focus Pad for about the 4th Week in a Row in a Park (Well, more like a big chunk of Grass). I immediately wondered how much He was being Payed to stand there teaching People to Punch Straight instead of Hooking, with No Power, No Speed, No Proper Stances, nothing.


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## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2011)

Carol said:


> Gotta disagree with this one.  What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor?  Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws?  Or child labor laws?   If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.



The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing.  I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor.  And it's tradition...  and there's a place for tradition.   It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class.  Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...


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## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2011)

Josh Oakley said:


> Mine was a commercial school and part of a chain. It wasn't cheap, though. Not that I made much money, most of it went out to the investors. But because it was not cheap, I kept that in mind with everything I did and wanted to provide the best service I could for them.



I don't have a problem in concept or principle with with successful commercial martial arts schools.  But that success shouldn't come at the expense of the students...  For example, a buddy of mine got himself involved in a contract to learn to teach a particular commercial school's program.  Now, he had some background and training, so it's not like he was starting from zero... but... he signed this contract, paying I don't know how much, to learn to be an instructor.  Next thing he knew, he was leading classes.  Not teaching under supervision -- but leading classes.  In an art he had limited experience with.  And paying for the privilege...  Had he been brought up to speed on that style, then begun as an assistant instructor under supervision, eventually towards the end of the contract running classes on his own...  No problem.  That's an apprenticeship model, right?  I can even deal with students being occasional substitute instructors, and no problem at all with teaching as a clear, supervised part of training.  But when students are paying for the privilege of coming in and teaching most of the classes...  Then there's a problem.  And I've heard of it happening.


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## shihansmurf (Nov 27, 2011)

Carol said:


> Gotta disagree with this one.  What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor?  Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws?  Or child labor laws?   If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.



QFT!

Every time I encounter a student teacher like that all I can think is "wow, what a scam".  It's a pretty impressive con job on the part of the head instructor to get people to pay for working for them. When I stop in at Burger King I don't make my own whopper. 

Mark


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## Josh Oakley (Nov 30, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I don't have a problem in concept or principle with with successful commercial martial arts schools.  But that success shouldn't come at the expense of the students...  For example, a buddy of mine got himself involved in a contract to learn to teach a particular commercial school's program.  Now, he had some background and training, so it's not like he was starting from zero... but... he signed this contract, paying I don't know how much, to learn to be an instructor.  Next thing he knew, he was leading classes.  Not teaching under supervision -- but leading classes.  In an art he had limited experience with.  And paying for the privilege...  Had he been brought up to speed on that style, then begun as an assistant instructor under supervision, eventually towards the end of the contract running classes on his own...  No problem.  That's an apprenticeship model, right?  I can even deal with students being occasional substitute instructors, and no problem at all with teaching as a clear, supervised part of training.  But when students are paying for the privilege of coming in and teaching most of the classes...  Then there's a problem.  And I've heard of it happening.



Sounds exactly like the school chain I was involved in. But.... that's probably a conversation for PM's as far as my story goes, as that chain is currently involved in a legal battle.


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## frank raud (Nov 30, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park



Is the personal trainer showing them how to do pushups, or is it a paying student that is giving instructions, , with or without the watchful eye of the experienced trainer?


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## Cyriacus (Nov 30, 2011)

I just realized something humorous.

Some People: "Bleh. MA dont work in REAL fights."
These People: "Bleh. MA can be too dangerous to use in REAL fights because You might be too effective!"


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## mook jong man (Nov 30, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Is the personal trainer showing them how to do pushups, or is it a paying student that is giving instructions, , with or without the watchful eye of the experienced trainer?



No I just said that to illustrate the point that you can do a short course in Australia to become a personal trainer it's got nothing to do with an ma school , these people can then charge about 80$ an hour and run bootcamps etc.
One of my students goes to one who meets him at a park where they work out lifting sandbags etc.

The thing is I charge way less than these people do for a 90 min private martial arts lesson and I have about 22 years experience in my chosen system.

People won't bat an eyelid in paying that much to do fitness stuff , but they look at you funny when you tell them how much your lesson fee is going to be.
Maybe fitness training and vanity is more valued in this society than learning martial arts skills I don't know.


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## Steve (Nov 30, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing.  I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor.  And it's tradition...  and there's a place for tradition.   It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class.  Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...


The wrestling team at the local middle school rolls the mats and puts them away at the end of every class.  At our BJJ school everyone pitches in a mops the mats, takes out the garbage and throws away any water bottles or whatnot.  There's a line where I'd totally agree with Carol, but for me, that's somewhere in the area of instruction.  Taking care of the space on a daily, routine level isn't a big deal.  When people, kids or adults, are routinely taking on classes as a lead instructor without any compensation, that's a problem for me.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> Gotta disagree with this one.  What is wrong with employees cleaning the dojo and students being strengthened in a way that doesn't involve paying a for-profit school for the "priveledge" of being the janitor?  Why do commercial schools toss around the words "respect" and "honor" then choose not to respect or honor minimum wage laws?  Or child labor laws?   If you want students to clean the floor, get them on a W-2 and compensate them according to the law, and ensure they are old enough to legally work and in conditions which they can legally work.



Why not pay a maid to clean your children's room? Because they learn nothing about personal responsibility nor pride in ownership.

When those little buggers grab the sanitizing solution and rub out those mats, pick up gum wrappers and water bottles and clean up after themselves they are learning:

1. The importance of cleanliness in everything
2. The hard work in sanitation that they will have to impart should they become teachers
3. WHY they must shower before and after class
4. to throw their water bottles and labels, gum wrappers, etcetera away properly 
5. to *aim* correctly and leave a restroom suitable for someone else's use is *proper* and should be done *everywhere*
6. Cleanliness of one's person, one's restroom, one's training arena and one's gear is not just about the individual, it is about community health
7. We honor ourselves and others when we take the time to care for these things.

Taking care of the arena in which they learn becomes a ritualistic representation of honoring the process. It is an act of love to finish up rounds of violence.  We need to remember we do this to better ourselves, not just to get nasty (in more ways than one).

I think it's important for paying students (and yes, even children) to at least put a little effort forward along these lines - if not regularly, then a few times per year, perhaps as a studio improvement project. Proper sanitation should be ensured, of course, by the school owner, even if it means duplicating effort.

This is based on my observations of past and current students and I stand by that.


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## jks9199 (Nov 30, 2011)

Again -- I want to stress that there's a point where the line is crossed.  Chores like straightening up after class, a quick, basic wipe down of the mats or floors, student teaching...  I don't have a problem with.  Especially in non-commercial schools.  But when you're using someone's professional skills (attorney, accountant, doctor, etc) without compensation, or demanding that people pay for the privilege of saving you work (Tom Sawyer's little whitewashing enterprise leaps to mind today, for some reason...) and running your business for you?  That's just scummy.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Again -- I want to stress that there's a point where the line is crossed.  Chores like straightening up after class, a quick, basic wipe down of the mats or floors, student teaching...  I don't have a problem with.  Especially in non-commercial schools.  But when you're using someone's professional skills (attorney, accountant, doctor, etc) without compensation, or demanding that people pay for the privilege of saving you work (Tom Sawyer's little whitewashing enterprise leaps to mind today, for some reason...) and running your business for you?  That's just scummy.



I just couldn't agree more.


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## punisher73 (Dec 1, 2011)

Steve said:


> The wrestling team at the local middle school rolls the mats and puts them away at the end of every class. At our BJJ school everyone pitches in a mops the mats, takes out the garbage and throws away any water bottles or whatnot. There's a line where I'd totally agree with Carol, but for me, that's somewhere in the area of instruction. Taking care of the space on a daily, routine level isn't a big deal. When people, kids or adults, are routinely taking on classes as a lead instructor without any compensation, that's a problem for me.



When I trained in BJJ, we would all pitch in and clean the mats (they were a permanent floor) at the end of each class.  I tried out Aikido when I was younger in a traditional type dojo, and same thing, everyone would pitch in and help clean the mat areas and vacuum the cloth covered mats.  It was a time of bonding and helped you to feel a part of the place and help keep it nice.

My instructor now used to clean dojo for "free" lessons because he couldn't afford them, what a way to help a kid earn what he wants and help him out.  Yes, we can all agree that there are some people who would abuse it, but I don't think that this is the case on a whole.


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## mxav (Dec 2, 2011)

I find myself agreeing with this. If the school is run like a business, then the business should clean it's facilities, not exploit the students. That's pretty cut and dry.


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## mxav (Dec 2, 2011)

Buka said:


> I used to wash the floor of my first dojo on a regular basis. (I used to feel like Caine, on Kung Fu.) When I started doing it every week, my Instructor gave me my own key. I was up there at all hours, it was grand!
> As a teacher, when my some of my students started teaching - at the very least, they would never pay tuition again. Most of them didn't offer to clean the dojo floor, but some did. I never asked those kind of things from them, purposely. What I did ask for was effort. All of it they had.



That sounds like a more informal ararngement, and the school I most recently attended was like that, I don't see a problem with a set up like that. But when you're talking about a commercial, ala, chain dojo, and it's clearly a business, then be a business and take care of your customers. If you run the dojo like a teacher, ie, more informally, that may be different.


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## mxav (Dec 2, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Exactly right ,you've got personal trainers who have done a six month course charging people upwards of 80 bucks an hour to show them how to do push ups and lunges down at the local park



For me anyway, that's not the issue, it's the students doing the work for the teacher. In another scenario, in a commercial dojo, you have people paying for instrcution from the teahcer, and you get a brown belt etaching the class. Is that what they're paying for? No, it isn't.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 2, 2011)

mxav said:


> I find myself agreeing with this. If the school is run like a business, then the business should clean it's facilities, not exploit the students. That's pretty cut and dry.


Theres _alot _more to it than that 
How Traditional is Your Aikido Dojo? Normally, the Floors/Mats (If Mats are used, Mats. If not, Floors) are Swept before and after each Class. As far as I can tell, its normally by Junior Students.
Its a Tradition, not a Labor. I can understand how it would come across as such at first.

The most Ive ever been asked to do is to push a box of Focus Mitts into a Cupboard; Which in a way, is Tidying up. I cant say I felt too exploited.
And since many Dojos are specifically Dojos, and not Rented Space that does other stuff as well, things like Painting the Walls not only benefit the Trainer, but also You, as a Student. And I doubt they had to Buy the Paint themselves anyway.

Granted, some places would exploit this, and thats a shame. But most of the time, its all in Good Faith.



mxav said:


> For me anyway, that's not the issue, it's the students doing the work for the teacher. In another scenario, in a commercial dojo, you have people paying for instrcution from the teahcer, and you get a brown belt etaching the class. Is that what they're paying for? No, it isn't.


And that is more descriptive of a McDojo.
Its ok for a Brown Belt to lead the Warmups or somesuch, but Teach the Class? No.
Theres a line between a Dojo being Commercial, and being a McDojo. The difference is, that one is there purely to make Money whilst keeping everyone happy (McDojo); The other Teaches a Martial Art, and operates to an extent for Profit. Among other things.

Also, apologies for the three Edits. Its tidier than Multiple Replies though.


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## mxav (Dec 2, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> The exercises I'm talking about are quick, they're done at the end of the class in some dojos, and they're also a bonding thing.  I'm not talking scrubbing and waxing the floor.  And it's tradition...  and there's a place for tradition.   It's kind of comparable to picking up the mats you used or putting other equipment away at the end of class.  Or wiping off equipment at the gym when you're done...



which is fine if that is the dojo's nature, my beef is when a commercial school is doing that because it is putting itself out there as a busienss. You might as well have a Mcdonald's demand the customer fry their own food.


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## mxav (Dec 2, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Theres _alot _more to it than that
> How Traditional is Your Aikido Dojo? Normally, the Floors/Mats (If Mats are used, Mats. If not, Floors) are Swept before and after each Class. As far as I can tell, its normally by Junior Students.
> Its a Tradition, not a Labor. I can understand how it would come across as such at first.
> 
> ...



In fairness that dojo is a traditional model, but it's also not a chain school. It's guy whose trained for some time and has a training group, and under that model we all pitch in, some of the younger students have also "earned" lessons in the method described by another poster, there's nothing wrong with that either.  I also was referring to an older experience at a TKD school that was a chain school, and the classes as a rule were taught by those of  a brown belt rank, and the etahcer was seldom there and there was a posted expectation on the wall that clean up was expected with a rotation that was mandatory right next to the sign stating the dues and when they were due. 

In the latter case, the teahcer was rarely there, and it was clearly a McDojo, and in that case exploitation. The current school is more a training so when I refer to "informal" that's what I percieve it as, for clarity.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 2, 2011)

mxav said:


> In fairness that dojo is a traditional model, but it's also not a chain school. It's guy whose trained for some time and has a training group, and under that model we all pitch in, some of the younger students have also "earned" lessons in the method described by another poster, there's nothing wrong with that either.  I also was referring to an older experience at a TKD school that was a chain school, and the classes as a rule were taught by those of  a brown belt rank, and the etahcer was seldom there and there was a posted expectation on the wall that clean up was expected with a rotation that was mandatory right next to the sign stating the dues and when they were due.
> 
> In the latter case, the teahcer was rarely there, and it was clearly a McDojo, and in that case exploitation. The current school is more a training so when I refer to "informal" that's what I percieve it as, for clarity.


Fair enough - Mcdojos are Mcdojos for a reason, and its a shame theyre around.
Based on Your Experiences, alot of what Youve said makes a bit more sense in Context to what Youve seen. I was under the Impression You were referring generally to Cleaning Up, rather than Informalities, at first.

Chain Schools come in many variables as well, though. Much like Commercial Dojos. Unfortunately, most of them are, in fact, McDojos. Others though, are People who open Dojos to teach a Martial Art, and also for Profit; As oppose to Profit and also a Martial Art. Ive seen it done right - I cant say I like the Model very much, but I dont object to its existance. Its when they start dumbing things up, and draining the Proper Bases out of what theyre Teaching that it becomes a McDojo.
The main difference, is that Commercial Dojos inclined toward Martial Sports arent so terribly bad. Its when They try to Teach a Martial Art that they tend to become a bit too split in the middle.

We seem to be on the same page, anyway.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 2, 2011)

There's reasonable (tidying up) and there's unreasonable (being -expected- to drive an hour to paint the building on your own dime). Lots of drift in between.
If it's free slave labor, not good.
If it's people taking pride in their place, and doing it because they want to, that's good.

Make sense?
Do spring cleaning, everyone who shows up gets some pizza and an extra lesson, great.
You must show up else your next promotions delayed 6 months as 'punishment', not so great.

Etc.


Now, going to the board breakers parlor tricks, which is what they were....I'd like to see him get hit by the -tip- of that 2x4, where the full power is.
Not at a weak pivot point which whip-action causes a stress fracture at a point of little power.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 2, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There's reasonable (tidying up) and there's unreasonable (being -expected- to drive an hour to paint the building on your own dime). Lots of drift in between.
> If it's free slave labor, not good.
> If it's people taking pride in their place, and doing it because they want to, that's good.
> 
> ...



Yep.
Theres a Line between, as You said, Helping and being 'forced' to Help.


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## kbarrett (Dec 2, 2011)

There's nothing wrong with everybody pitching in to help keep the dojang/dojo clean, instructors and students working together to keep their school looking great is something we all can relate to, whether your running your school as a business or not, for some of us it's like a 2 home.

Ken


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## Master Dan (Dec 4, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Well, I admit I only watched a couple minutes of the 2nd video.  I'm sorry, I can't take any more.  I've disliked Penn Jillette for years.  I don't think he's funny, I don't think he's smart, and his snotty attitude pisses me off.  I like it when it was the Penn & Teller magic show.  He's good at that.  Nothing else.
> 
> What I did not like from what little I saw was the one-sided approach and out-of-context sound bites.  Hmmm, at my dojo, belts cost $10.  So I guess I'm being 'ripped off' because I've paid a grand total of $40 in three years for promotions. Whoo, somebody call a cop.  And my $50 a month dues, clearly I'm being had.  And the fact that the owner nor the black belts who teach draw a salary but do it out of their love for Isshin-Ryu; wow, clearly they're being brainwashed.  I sometimes bring in bottled water or cleaning towels for the dojo out of my own pocket; what a scam!
> 
> Penn Jillette can kiss my pucker.


 Wow have any of you painfully watched the movie Foot Fist Way? one of my senior students down loaded it and just had to have me watch it. I suffered through it and told him never show it again especially to children true it was a painfull look at the commercial Mac Do Jo's but it implied a slam on all martial art and some of it just plain hard to watch because the public in general is being conditioned to believe what it proposes. 

I think the main premise of real traditonal MA is that all things are not what they seem to be and the greatests strengths are not readily visable so the most valuable knowledge and benifit is going to come from a dedicated minority removed from the coruption of commercialism and large organizations. Regarding the Dillman mention what did National Geo do?


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## Cyriacus (Dec 4, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Wow have any of you painfully watched the movie Foot Fist Way? one of my senior students down loaded it and just had to have me watch it. I suffered through it and told him never show it again especially to children true it was a painfull look at the commercial Mac Do Jo's but it implied a slam on all martial art and some of it just plain hard to watch because the public in general is being conditioned to believe what it proposes.
> 
> I think the main premise of real traditonal MA is that all things are not what they seem to be and the greatests strengths are not readily visable so the most valuable knowledge and benifit is going to come from a dedicated minority removed from the coruption of commercialism and large organizations. Regarding the Dillman mention what did National Geo do?



Of itself, I think the Movie had some amusing parts. But, as amused as I may have been by some of it, yeah. It sends a bad message.

Im not sure what I think of the second Paragraph, but lets not go off topic now


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## Josh Oakley (Dec 4, 2011)

I watched Foot Fist Way and then laughed my butt off. While one may _infer _it to be a slam on the martial arts as a whole, the movie itself _implies_ no such thing. And frankly, I laughed because I've known dojos and instructors very much like those portrayed in the movie.


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## Master Dan (Dec 4, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I was surprised Dillman wasn't featured, but National Geographic already nailed him.



Please explain?


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## Master Dan (Dec 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Of itself, I think the Movie had some amusing parts. But, as amused as I may have been by some of it, yeah. It sends a bad message.
> 
> Im not sure what I think of the second Paragraph, but lets not go off topic now


 Your right it had some crude humor and many of us have seen in person different examples being done by different people but its painfull when you think of how many peopel judge in general by that representation. On another note I think it was an ATA real Dojang that used its students in many parts of the movie and while I think some of the kids and class was good and great to see them getting exposure it was sad to think of a master or organization allowing underage students to be included in what was clearly a R rated movie with unacceptable language and abusive behavior.


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## rainesr (Dec 4, 2011)

I am surprised at how many people are actually angry about a Penn and Teller "documentary", especially one this old. First Penn and Teller are entertainers, comedians, magicians...not journalists. If they were legitimate news it would be on the news not the Showtime Movie channel, and they would have corespondents on their show not topless women. Penn and Teller's own behavior suggests that they are not taking themselves serious, why would I, especially enough to get angry. Similarly I would/do not get angry if John Stewart, Robin Williams, Peter Griffin (yes this is a cartoon character), or Chris Tucker exaggerates and slams something I do or believe in their performances. Why bother? 

I have yet to hear of any "documentary" that Penn and Teller have done rocking the foundations of any community's beliefs, nor do I expect to.

This response is probably more of a culmination of the years I have heard this piece discussed rather than just this post.

~Rob


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Please explain?







From a National Geographic special. GM Dillman explains how to nullify the no touch ko by wiggling your toes and licking your back teeth.


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## Josh Oakley (Dec 4, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From a National Geographic special. GM Dillman explains how to nullify the no touch ko by wiggling your toes and licking your back teeth.



... Says it all. The thing that has always stood out to me about the believers of no-touch is that no-touch only seems to work if you _believe _it will. In other words, it's essentially useless. I don't think that necessarily takes away from the practitioners other skills. I have known plenty of otherwise exceptional instructors that believe in no-touch.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 4, 2011)

rainesr said:


> I am surprised at how many people are actually angry about a Penn and Teller "documentary", especially one this old. First Penn and Teller are entertainers, comedians, magicians...not journalists. If they were legitimate news it would be on the news not the Showtime Movie channel, and they would have corespondents on their show not topless women. Penn and Teller's own behavior suggests that they are not taking themselves serious, why would I, especially enough to get angry. Similarly I would/do not get angry if John Stewart, Robin Williams, Peter Griffin (yes this is a cartoon character), or Chris Tucker exaggerates and slams something I do or believe in their performances. Why bother?
> 
> I have yet to hear of any "documentary" that Penn and Teller have done rocking the foundations of any community's beliefs, nor do I expect to.
> 
> ...



Thats just it, but.
_&#8203;It isnt funny._


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## Master Dan (Dec 4, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From a National Geographic special. GM Dillman explains how to nullify the no touch ko by wiggling your toes and licking your back teeth.



 thank you I am still amazed at how we can view video clips good audio fair video and the 12 additional clip library after viewing the first one you have on your post comes at the end. 

I think GM Dillman's explanation at the end was a too simplistic explanation of a complex issue. Even PP and certain grapling will not work many times because they rely on relaxation or an unawareness of what the offensive move will be meaning in nurological terms the very communication or access to the brain you need is blocked by duress and resistance so you go to another point or move commonly refered to target of oportunity for the effect you are looking for.

I have never believed that no touch has anything to do with combat or resistive defense but it can have an effect before applying technique prior to touching and effect balance and enhance effect of energetic moves or cross diuranal applications. To look at something like no touch and conclude that Chi or Ki has no effect on defensive or offensive moves is certainly a position a person has the right to take but take any move application you like and have it applied on you by a 1-5 year practioner and then by a adult who has trained 25 plus years non stop developing thier ki and applications and you can feel the difference and it is not always just becasue they know how and where to apply but the energy they can apply to the technique.

In fact Chi and ki will happen even if a person believes or not over a period of time and impacts what they are doing regardless if they are knowingly trying to apply it but not as significant as when they directly develop and use it. I think its just as funny to say as some of the other Japanese styles have demonstrated the mind block in demonstration on thier students which of course on thier students it works but I would hate to try that with some guy who has a gun or knife ( you cannot shoot or stab me) but still fun to believe some guy lived in a cave and perfected it for 50 years? Yes Virgina there really is a Santa Claus


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Thats just it, but.
> _&#8203;It isnt funny._



Humor is a matter of personal opinion.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 4, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Humor is a matter of personal opinion.


Oh, it could be Amusing. Thats personal Opinion.
But Murder can be Funny as well, to the eyes of the Beholder.

Funny, implies that something is more radial.
But for the sake of discussion, I shall concur for now. Theres not much point in debating the intriciacies of the referencial use of the word Funny


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2011)

rainesr said:


> I am surprised at how many people are actually angry about a Penn and Teller "documentary", especially one this old. First Penn and Teller are entertainers, comedians, magicians...not journalists. If they were legitimate news it would be on the news not the Showtime Movie channel, and they would have corespondents on their show not topless women. Penn and Teller's own behavior suggests that they are not taking themselves serious, why would I, especially enough to get angry. Similarly I would/do not get angry if John Stewart, Robin Williams, Peter Griffin (yes this is a cartoon character), or Chris Tucker exaggerates and slams something I do or believe in their performances. Why bother?
> 
> I have yet to hear of any "documentary" that Penn and Teller have done rocking the foundations of any community's beliefs, nor do I expect to.
> 
> ...



Never heard of Penn and Teller before this thread so didn't know they were supposed to be 'funny' or whatever. I like both my documentaries and comedies to not talk down to me and to be reasonably clever and quite entertaining, these didn't manage to do anything other than be annoying for many reasons. They insult the intelligence of small rodents never mind human adults.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 5, 2011)

I find them funny.  Then again, I also enjoy Benny Hill and have been known to laugh at a Shakespeare comedy, so what's that say about my taste? 

Here's my take on it all:
- Some MA are BS.
- Some guys and gals do really wacked things and people buy it.
- You can never go wrong with naked babes.
- Anything with the word "Bull" in the title is 'caca'.


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I find them funny. Then again, I also enjoy Benny Hill and have been known to laugh at a Shakespeare comedy, so what's that say about my taste?



Only men find Benny Hill funny! Women just shake their head, it's his very little boy lavatorial sense of humour that appeals to blokes and doesn't appeal to women at all.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 5, 2011)

*Looks down*
Well, it appears I'm male so that explains a lot actually.


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2011)

LOl Benny Hill, appeals to the small boy inside all men!


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## mxav (Dec 5, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> From a National Geographic special. GM Dillman explains how to nullify the no touch ko by wiggling your toes and licking your back teeth.



Really.............................?


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## pgsmith (Dec 5, 2011)

Opinion from left field ...
  There are a great many people in the MA business that are selling snake-oil. However, there are a great many people that eagerly buy that snake-oil and believe in it. So what? It doesn't affect my training or what I do in the least, and it's much better for people to get out and train in a B.S. martial arts dojo than to sit on their couch and watch bad TV programming. The truth is that very, very few of all the people who practice martial arts, BS or otherwise, will ever use what they've been taught. Well, unless they are engaged in law enforcement or security, but those folks wouldn't be fooled by a martial arts charlatan. 

  My point is that if people are willing to shell out money and enjoy what they're doing, it makes no difference if it's real or not. Those of us that *want* real training, can find it pretty easily. Getting upset because someone else is selling a Ford Focus as a Lamborghini is simple ego, in my opinion.


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## Tez3 (Dec 5, 2011)

pgsmith said:


> Opinion from left field ...
> There are a great many people in the MA business that are selling snake-oil. However, there are a great many people that eagerly buy that snake-oil and believe in it. So what? It doesn't affect my training or what I do in the least, and it's much better for people to get out and train in a B.S. martial arts dojo than to sit on their couch and watch bad TV programming. The truth is that very, very few of all the people who practice martial arts, BS or otherwise, will ever use what they've been taught. Well, unless they are engaged in law enforcement or security, but those folks wouldn't be fooled by a martial arts charlatan.
> 
> My point is that if people are willing to shell out money and enjoy what they're doing, it makes no difference if it's real or not. Those of us that *want* real training, can find it pretty easily. *Getting upset because someone else is selling a Ford Focus as a Lamborghini is simple ego*, in my opinion.



Unless you sell Ferraris or Lamborghinis in Japan, then you are going to be really, really, really upset today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...f-supercars-in-Japan-crash-were-speeding.html


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 5, 2011)

pgsmith said:


> Opinion from left field ...
> There are a great many people in the MA business that are selling snake-oil. However, there are a great many people that eagerly buy that snake-oil and believe in it. So what? It doesn't affect my training or what I do in the least, and it's much better for people to get out and train in a B.S. martial arts dojo than to sit on their couch and watch bad TV programming. The truth is that very, very few of all the people who practice martial arts, BS or otherwise, will ever use what they've been taught. Well, unless they are engaged in law enforcement or security, but those folks wouldn't be fooled by a martial arts charlatan.
> 
> My point is that if people are willing to shell out money and enjoy what they're doing, it makes no difference if it's real or not. Those of us that *want* real training, can find it pretty easily. Getting upset because someone else is selling a Ford Focus as a Lamborghini is simple ego, in my opinion.


Good point. I have known people who train at BS mcdojos, and after 5 or so years they have improved flexibility, incresed core strength and cardio fitness, they have learnt some basics regarding distancing and positioning and they've learnt a whole heap of kicks and punches they would never have otherwise known. Are they some kick *** fighting machine? no, of course not, BUT they are significantly better equiped to handle themself if ever confronted with the so called "guy on the street", and its heaps better for them than sitting at home on the couch eating a packet of chips. What they are learning may be 'watered down mcdojo stuff' , but hey, they are still learning something. Good on them.


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## Hordfest (Dec 5, 2011)

After watching those videos and reading through the comments I felt like adding my own take on this whole thing.

First off, I joined a Shuri-ryu karate school with the purpose of self-improvement.  I didn't want to take lives, I didn't want to be a bad ***, I just wanted to focus my body, mind, and spirit and get a sense of self-improvement.  I was not disappointed.  I've only been in the system for a month and I feel more refreshed then ever.  I now have a reason to get up and want to work out or train.  My diet has improved, my grades have improved, and I have already learned so much, not just about my system, but about life in general.  I learned that if you want to master something you need to repeat it and practice it.  I am learning the value of discipline, respect to my superiors, as well as slew of other things.  For me, this is the true value of my training so far and totally vindicates the $50 I pay per month.

And for me to see these videos is saddening.  Penn and Teller may be entertainers, but I have never been a big fan of people who use lies under the guise of illusion for comedy.  There are so many intangible benefits to being a part of a true martial arts system and while there are certainly idiots in every field, including martial arts, it is irresponsible for them, and offensive to thousands if not millions of people in America and across the world to give such a one-sided view of martial arts.

That being said, there are also a lot of specific claims he makes that I have issues with.

First off, their analysis of the belt system, to me, was way off. The belt system, to me, is a great idea.  It is PROVEN through countless studies that setting goals will help your progression in any aspect of life.  Martial arts is no different, and as a lowly white belt, when I think about testing for yellow belt in a few months it makes me excited and encourages me to train harder, perhaps, then I would if I had no measure of my progress.  Granted, the belt system creates a certain group of students who have the philosophy, "ooh a black belt is my ultimate goal, give me the exact requirements and I'll try to do exactly the minimum just to say I have the belt," and while it is abused by some instructors, I think that as a measure of progress and a rough indicator of seniority and skill, that the belt system works great.

Secondly, Penn and Teller, as well as a comment by a John, earlier in this thread, about guns is just way off base based on what I know.  My biggest qualm with this is that they are spreading knowledge that could be potentially harmful.  If you go out and buy a gun, get a concealed carry license, open carry it, or whatever and think that that will protect you absolutely, that is terribly wrong and even potentially dangerous.  Imagine if somebody comes up to rob you and you pull a gun on them.  If they even have a basic knowledge of gun defense, they will not only be able to stop you from firing it, but because you didn't want to "waste" money and time learning martial arts or any sort of close range self-defense, you will also not have any idea what to do if you are disarmed or in an area where guns aren't permitted.  Also, many people are uncomfortable with a gun or live in states or countries where gun control is strict.  

Thirdly, I've only been at my dojo for one month and I've already volunteered to help out around the place.  Since when did we become a society where volunteering is confused as unpaid slave labor?  To me, martial arts schools are like families and in a family, the sons, daughters, and cousins don't demand payment from the patriarch or matriarch for their chores.  They do them because they have a sense of responsibility and they understand how each of their individual tasks, no matter how menial, help build the family into a greater thing.  

Finally, I just wanted to say that I also realize there are a lot of idiots that Penn and Teller are justified in calling out.  But to condemn martial arts as BS as a whole, is just terrible.  If there is one thing he said that I liked, it is that martial artists are truly that, "artists."  We are a people who can do beautiful and effective things in and out of society with our body and our minds, both with our arts and from the lessons learned from our studies. This is what being a martial artist means to me, and I'm so glad that I made the decision to join the ranks of a proud and historic tradition, despite anything that Penn and Teller tells me, jesting or otherwise.


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## rainesr (Dec 6, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Never heard of Penn and Teller before this thread so didn't know they were supposed to be 'funny' or whatever. I like both my documentaries and comedies to not talk down to me and to be reasonably clever and quite entertaining, these didn't manage to do anything other than be annoying for many reasons. They insult the intelligence of small rodents never mind human adults.


When this came out some of the guys at my school were outraged, and they were irritated that some of us could care less. I am not defending Penn and Teller, they really aren't my type of humor. I am just surprised that people can get worked up over a couple magicians rounding up a bunch of clowns and making fun of them. I have only seen a couple other episodes but the subject in the title seems to come a distant second to making fun of fruitcakes.

~Rob


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## Josh Oakley (Dec 6, 2011)

Hordfest said:


> After watching those videos and reading through the comments I felt like adding my own take on this whole thing.
> 
> First off, I joined a Shuri-ryu karate school with the purpose of self-improvement.  I didn't want to take lives, I didn't want to be a bad ***, I just wanted to focus my body, mind, and spirit and get a sense of self-improvement.  I was not disappointed.  I've only been in the system for a month and I feel more refreshed then ever.  I now have a reason to get up and want to work out or train.  My diet has improved, my grades have improved, and I have already learned so much, not just about my system, but about life in general.  I learned that if you want to master something you need to repeat it and practice it.  I am learning the value of discipline, respect to my superiors, as well as slew of other things.  For me, this is the true value of my training so far and totally vindicates the $50 I pay per month.
> 
> ...



I couldn't find any lies. I saw facts, and opinions. There were opinions I agree with and disagree with,  but nothing that was actually untrue.


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2011)

rainesr said:


> When this came out some of the guys at my school were outraged, and they were irritated that some of us could care less. I am not defending Penn and Teller, they really aren't my type of humor. I am just surprised that people can get worked up over a couple magicians rounding up a bunch of clowns and making fun of them. I have only seen a couple other episodes but the subject in the title seems to come a distant second to making fun of fruitcakes.
> 
> ~Rob



Well they are entitled to be upset if they want just as you are entitled not to be upset. I assume you all knew who Penn and Teller were so could make a jusdgement based on that, I have no idea who they are, still don't and have no wish to find out more. I suppose you have programme listings too that tell you these two are supposed to be funny, hard to tell otherwise.


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## Hordfest (Dec 6, 2011)

@Josh Oakley

I hear where you are coming from, but the word lie has two definitions, both which are satisfied by Penn and Teller.  Both definitions, according to Merriam-Webster are:

1.) to make an untrue statement with the intent to deceive
2.) to create a false or MISLEADING impression.

The first definition is satisfied when Penn and Teller say "Let's face it, martial arts is a business and belts are their primary product."  A statement is untrue if any part of it is untrue.  This is a blanket statement claiming that martial arts as a whole is a business with the intent of making money off the PRIMARY product of belts.  Not only is he misrepresenting not-for-profit dojos that simply want to keep the doors open, but he is also misrepresenting any school that is legitimate about their belt system.  Since they are illusionists, it's obvious that the second part of the definition, "the intent to deceive," is fulfilled.

The second definition is satisfied anytime that the video mentions a blatantly one-sided argument that gives a misleading impression, and as is already agreed, there are a plethora of misleading impressions in that video.

Therefore, humor or not, this video is full of LIES.  Yes, there are some facts, and some opinions, but there are also an abundance of lies by definition.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2011)

So.

The guy breaking boards was legit?
Even though the board breaking is a parlor trick as demonstrated?
Even though getting hit by a 2x3 as shown and breaking it isn't a trick at all?

The laughing chicken lady was legit?

Please don't say yes.  There's that other Bull Site that would really laugh at us if anyone says yes.


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## mxav (Dec 6, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So.
> 
> The guy breaking boards was legit?
> Even though the board breaking is a parlor trick as demonstrated?
> ...



Breaking boards is as much a parlor trick as that crap Dillman is peddling, does anyone actually take Dillman seriously?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2011)

I break tables, that are on fire.
More impressive.


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## pgsmith (Dec 6, 2011)

> The laughing chicken lady was legit?


Ha! She was an absolute nut case!  However, whatever it is that she's doing still beats sitting on the couch watching reality shows, which way too much of the population does for a hobby. Any sort of "martial art", no matter how loosely defined or outrageously inept, is still better than that.



> I break tables, that are on fire.
> More impressive.


  Cut them with a sword. Everyone would love that!


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## Steve (Dec 6, 2011)

I agree with most of the points brought up in the show and think it's great that someone finally called ******** on the martial arts industry.

Sure, there are great MA schools in every style.  Sure, there are styles that are less fraught with shenanigans than others.  But the truth is, most of what is taught in the standard, run of the mill martial arts school is crapola.  Where kids are involved, it's almost all crap.  I've said many times and still believe wholeheartedly that kids are often LESS capable of defending themselves the longer they train in martial arts.  Where they might once have run like hell, they're so filled up with false accomplishments and bogus self defense one steps that they'll be lucky to survive an actual self defense situation, much less make any of the junk they've been taught work.

The above is my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 6, 2011)

Steve said:


> I agree with most of the points brought up in the show and think it's great that someone finally called ******** on the martial arts industry.
> 
> Sure, there are great MA schools in every style.  Sure, there are styles that are less fraught with shenanigans than others.  But the truth is, most of what is taught in the standard, run of the mill martial arts school is crapola.  Where kids are involved, it's almost all crap.  I've said many times and still believe wholeheartedly that kids are often LESS capable of defending themselves the longer they train in martial arts.  Where they might once have run like hell, they're so filled up with false accomplishments and bogus self defense one steps that they'll be lucky to survive an actual self defense situation, much less make any of the junk they've been taught work.
> 
> The above is my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.


I can see where you're coming from, but I suppose it depends on the individual school. For me personally, I have never seen a school advertise that they will teach you to become some sort of 'martial arts warrior'. The mcdijos in my area usually say "fun, fitness and self defense for the whole family" (or something similar). And in reality, they are going to get you fitter, you will have fun, and as I said in an earlier post, you will increase cardio fitness, core strength, co ordination, distancing, timing, they will also learn kicks and punches and a whole host of other things they would not learn sitting at home on the couch. If the student lets it go to their head and think they are now 'untouchable' and posess some amazing fighting skills, then that is because they have let it go that way. I cant speak on behalf of schools outside of my area, but all in all I have found most schools around here to be quite honest about what they teach. We have a mcdojo up the road that I called when I was originally enquiring about starting tkd and the instructor told me straight out that if my only goal is fighting and learning to kick someone's *** then go find a krav maga club (they were his exact words). I still believe that if you get two identical people, exactly the same in all ways and one of them spends 5 years at a mcdojo and the other just gets on with their normal day to day life and does absolutely no training whatsoever and then after the 5 years you put them both in a cage and get them to fight to the death, the guy with 5 years mcdojo experience will win by a mile. He will know how to punch and kick (not well, but he would have thrown hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks over the 5 years), he will be fitter, stronger, have some minor conditioning and will have better reflexes and a basic understanding of distancing.


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## K-man (Dec 22, 2011)

I think there is enough truth in the videos for most of us to recognise and so much BS is taught in too many schools. As others have said, there can be benefits from training in a McDojo but the same time spent in a school with a knowledgable    teacher should produce a better outcome. If that is not the case then why don't we all use their money making formula?

Most karate schools promote competition and many use the results to demonstrate how good they are. As I have said before, training for sport and training RBSD are chalk and cheese.  What those guys said about the use of karate on the street is undoubtably true. A little bit of knowledge can get you into an awful lot of trouble.

What they said about the legal ramifications of the overuse of force is also true.  Those of us who teach RBSD also teach the legal justification for its use and the consequences of going too far.

As for cleaning etc. Who cares?  In Okinawa you mop the floor after training.  Being expected to paint the place is a bit much but is that actually the case, or did the guys volunteer?

Finally, it is interesting to read some of the comments on this thread in the light of previous discussions on freedom of speech.  I thought at least some people might have mentioned Penn and Teller's right to say what they like, even if we disagree! 

Doesn't mean I go along with all they said but there is enough truth in what they say to make us all have a good look at what we do and make sure we don't live in a glass house.


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## Indie12 (Dec 22, 2011)

K-man said:


> I think there is enough truth in the videos for most of us to recognise and so much BS is taught in too many schools. As others have said, there can be benefits from training in a McDojo but the same time spent in a school with a knowledgable teacher should produce a better outcome. If that is not the case then why don't we all use their money making formula?
> 
> Most karate schools promote competition and many use the results to demonstrate how good they are. As I have said before, training for sport and training RBSD are chalk and cheese. What those guys said about the use of karate on the street is undoubtably true. A little bit of knowledge can get you into an awful lot of trouble.
> 
> ...



I certainly do not agree with Penn and Teller's opinions on Martial Arts, but than again they do have the right to their opinion! I do however, see their point behind a majority of Martial Arts training, sadly in the 21st century!! I watched both video's, it seems to me it's more meant to be a joke as in (haha it's television ratings) than actual opinion or fact.

The good point about 'Use of Force' and 'Law' application is actually true, a Majority of Martial Arts does NOT teach it! Among other things, And that's failing the students overall. 

I will say it sounds like the introduction to their video, the underlining message behind that short few seconds, was on common sense to normal folks, (I.E. If a gun is pointed at you, don't stand there and try to take it away, just give them your wallet, purse, money, etc and be safe with it!)

It does reinforces the question 'Practicality of Martial Art and Martial Art Systems?'


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## mxav (Dec 22, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> I certainly do not agree with Penn and Teller's opinions on Martial Arts, but than again they do have the right to their opinion! I do however, see their point behind a majority of Martial Arts training, sadly in the 21st century!! I watched both video's, it seems to me it's more meant to be a joke as in (haha it's television ratings) than actual opinion or fact.
> 
> The good point about 'Use of Force' and 'Law' application is actually true, a Majority of Martial Arts does NOT teach it! Among other things, And that's failing the students overall.
> 
> ...



Interestingly they call the effectively ones "self defense oriented ones" as ground for murder while mocking the sportish ones. Would anyone else like to see Penn state into the Octogan, I might find that enteraining.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 22, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> He will know how to punch and kick (not well, but he would have thrown hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks over the 5 years),



This raises a question in my mind:  if they are going to put in the effort to throw hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks, why not make sure they are doing it properly so that they WILL be able to do so well.  Make those hundreds of thousands of repetitions QUALITY repetitions.  Otherwise, why bother?  Why accept that it will never be good, if they are putting in the work anyway?


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## Indie12 (Dec 23, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> This raises a question in my mind: if they are going to put in the effort to throw hundreds of thousands of punches and kicks, why not make sure they are doing it properly so that they WILL be able to do so well. Make those hundreds of thousands of repetitions QUALITY repetitions. Otherwise, why bother? Why accept that it will never be good, if they are putting in the work anyway?



I agree, qualitity is what matters, not quantity!


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## thegatekeeper (Dec 23, 2011)

That first video was really sweet lol, that board smashing guy must have a hard time massaging people


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## ModernVisage (Dec 25, 2011)

I'm sure we know an army of teachers that can redefine this show as its own brand of ********. There are plenty of business styled self defense schools and even more teachers who haven't applied their forms in combat but that doesn't dismiss all practical values it gives:health, mental training, social strength. I have never respected those people who smash boards or pretend fancy movements(without instruction on the importance) are damaging. Competitive fighting is becoming popular which puts all styles to the test (depending on the user and target) and the systems born out of the Karate kid and Bruce Lee admiration are dying off.


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## Haikuguy (Jan 20, 2012)

My teacher Yossi Sheriff was asked once in a demonstration in a university infront of hundreds of people what would he do if someone was to walk up behind him in the street and stab him in the back with a knife.


"I'd die", he said.


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