# Catholics are Chritstians!!!



## someguy (Feb 25, 2004)

Ok people I have heared people say talk about catholics and christians being differnt.  Heres some news they aren't.  Catholics are christians.  Protestants are chritsians.  I invite anybody to challange this.  You can even play devils advocate and challange this.  
Either I will have started a bigg messy fight or this will go no where.  Lets try to be abit respectfull on this.


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## Cruentus (Feb 25, 2004)

Your correct. Catholics are Christians.

PAUL


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

Ok, I'd love to debate with you over this, but I seriously don't have the time...say what you will...but history proves it...and Also, did I say that all catholics are not Christians?...no...I said that a lot of Catholics are not christians...they just call themselves that because of their doctrine...and I'm not going to say anymore and this whole topic is just an outburst of mixed feelings...lol...I could start a whole debate on so many theoligical things and religions, but I'm not...AND YES ALOT OF CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS, but the real question that excludes what religion you come from is, whether or not you call yourself a Christian does not mean you are one...it's whether you have accepted Christ as Personal Lord and Savior...it can go many ways, even into baptist...I know some Baptist(I'm a Southern Baptist only by church because I believe in it's doctrine being sound) who are now becoming calvinists...even their church...so, it all comes down to acceptance of Christ as personal Lord and Saviour and believing he died...

AGAIN, THIS IS A STUPID AND POINTLESS THREAD...Just say if you if you have accepted Christ and all...then there is not need to argue...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2004)

But Christians aren't (always) Catholic.


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## Andi (Feb 25, 2004)

> But Christians aren't (always) Catholic.



And not all "Christians" are Christians.

A lot of the MA threads on this board revolving around "what style is better" resolve themselves when everybody realises that it's the practitioner that makes the difference as to being a good martial artist, not necessarily the art itself. I think that's fairly analagous to this "Catholic v Protestant" debate.


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## Cruentus (Feb 25, 2004)

> Shaolin Wolf.
> 
> I am just going to say a few things, then I am done with the conversation.
> 
> ...



 :ultracool 
PAUL


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

See, Kaith I'm sorry...I didn't mean to irresponsibly spout on the other forum...And I thought you agreed with them that Catholics were all Christian...not lashing out at you, but I thought you said that...

anyways...yeah, both ways work, not all Christians are Christians...like I said it all comes down to the common denominator...well, that's my belief...shared by alot of people I know...ok, by Billy Graham too...lol...but he's retired...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> See, Kaith I'm sorry...I didn't mean to irresponsibly spout on the other forum...And I thought you agreed with them that Catholics were all Christian...not lashing out at you, but I thought you said that...


Naw, I didn't take it as a lash.  I mighta...will have to check. 



> anyways...yeah, both ways work, not all Christians are Christians...like I said it all comes down to the common denominator...well, that's my belief...shared by alot of people I know...ok, by Billy Graham too...lol...but he's retired...


Hey, Billy was a heck of a wrestler in his day. 
Ok, I know who you are talking about (it aint the wrasler), and he's the only tv evangelist I have any real respect for.

Peace.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

And also, I didn't not say CATHOLICS CAN NOT BE CHRISTIANS...geez, do not misquote me again...EVER!!!...geez...everyone keeps misquoting me...lol...I meant that alot of Catholics aren't Christian and join just to be called a catholic...other than that...I'm not calling youAnd another thing...nobody has answered my question...aside from mocking me and bickering that I'm on some high horse...What do you define as a Christian?...I define it as the minimum of having a personal relationship with Christ Jesus and also believing that he died and rose again and that you are a sinner and he died for you...that's the minimum where alot of people stop...I AM NOT INSINUATING ANYTHING!!!!!...I'm just saying some people...NOT YOU!!!!...I'm just saying that I haven't heard any actual definitions...and that I hear so much banter about being Christian and then people do the same worldly carnal things, and then when you ask them about being Christian, they say they do good stuff and God will let them into Heaven...That's not the case...it's a matter of FAITH...anyways...I don't mean to lash out at anybody in particular but you have taken it personal for plenty of reasons, rather than cooly and calmly given me the actual definition of a Christian...

Aside from all that, Christians are more than just saying ok, I'm going to Heaven and that's it...I'm not saying that's good at all...I don't mean it to be condemning, and Its just I've been pushed there every once in a while...and if we aren't bold, then what are we?...oh, let's tolerate everything and just be a good person and world...hmmm...well, I don't see why this should carry on anymore seeing as it just causes disunity...as if there wasn't enough...anyways...I'm  sorry the way things have come out, and I try not to sound condemning...and I don't mean to disrespect you...and also it was all just my opinion...it's just my opinion got conversational...and it's amazing how many people love the challenge...or so it seems...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 25, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And also, I didn't not say CATHOLICS CAN NOT BE CHRISTIANS...geez, do not misquote me again...EVER!!!...geez...everyone keeps misquoting me...lol...I meant that alot of Catholics aren't Christian and join just to be called a catholic...other than that...I'm not calling youAnd another thing...nobody has answered my question...aside from mocking me and bickering that I'm on some high horse...What do you define as a Christian?...I define it as the minimum of having a personal relationship with Christ Jesus and also believing that he died and rose again and that you are a sinner and he died for you...that's the minimum where alot of people stop...I AM NOT INSINUATING ANYTHING!!!!!...I'm just saying some people...NOT YOU!!!!...I'm just saying that I haven't heard any actual definitions...and that I hear so much banter about being Christian and then people do the same worldly carnal things, and then when you ask them about being Christian, they say they do good stuff and God will let them into Heaven...That's not the case...it's a matter of FAITH...anyways...I don't mean to lash out at anybody in particular but you have taken it personal for plenty of reasons, rather than cooly and calmly given me the actual definition of a Christian...
> 
> Aside from all that, Christians are more than just saying ok, I'm going to Heaven and that's it...I'm not saying that's good at all...I don't mean it to be condemning, and Its just I've been pushed there every once in a while...and if we aren't bold, then what are we?...oh, let's tolerate everything and just be a good person and world...hmmm...well, I don't see why this should carry on anymore seeing as it just causes disunity...as if there wasn't enough...anyways...I'm sorry the way things have come out, and I try not to sound condemning...and I don't mean to disrespect you...and also it was all just my opinion...it's just my opinion got conversational...and it's amazing how many people love the challenge...or so it seems...


Sir,

You can say the same for Baptists, and Methods, and the Church of England and the Greek Orthadox, and the list goes on and on and on, ..., that they are not Christians. They follow or say they follow a Christian Belief system, yet they do not show or act the proper Christian way.

Now if this is true, then let me say this. By your presentation here alone, you are not a Christian either. Now I take it on faith that you are as you state you are. Yet, you comments and views are very unChristian like in my book.

And A thread is never pointless and stupid if it resoves an issue. You have made a point numerous times yet you will not site data or facts to prove it or to explain it. It is obvious to you, but not to us, as we are not inside your brain. I, PAUL and others have also studied History, and we can go and agree that some of the people were bad.

I think this might have helped me understand you point.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

Paul, I'm ignoring that, because I know I'm a Christian, but you are avoiding my question...WHAT DO YOU DEFINE AS A CHRISTIAN?!...lol...sorry to shout but I am as of yet to get a clear answer from anybody on this forums...lol...anyways, who are you to define whether I'm a Christian or not...If I've stated what I've done to become a Christian, I am the only one, other than God who knows the truth about me...and to say that I'm not a Christian...yes, I lashed out in anger, and I don't know how many times I must say sorry...and no I have not called anyone in here not a Christian...you all just assumed that...and took it personal...yet you call me nonchristian...so, you seriously need to look yourself in the mirror...I'm sorry I've come accross and lashed out, and I admit I could have taken a better approach...but I've not been given a good answer as of yet...so, I'm still waiting to understand your understanding of what a Christian is...and just because I've lashed out several times and irresponsibly, how can you call me a nonchristian...CHRISTIAN'S DO SIN TOO!!! WE ARE NOT PERFECT!!!...I love God and I know he didn't really like my lashing outs, but he does forgive us...I'm no saint at all...by far...and I say sorry...Christians do say sorry...hello!...


Anyways, it's amazing that you have to lash out now, and tell me I'm not a Christian...I've analyzed my actions earlier and am sorry how I said stuff and for part of what I said, but it's my opinion...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

And what is the True Christian way if Baptists and such are not Christians? hmmm...answer me that?


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## michaeledward (Feb 25, 2004)

It is pretty amazing ... this whole Catholic / Christian discussion. 


The word catholic means 'Universal'. Certainly, it is arrogant of a church to claim for itself universality, that it is just a name. 

2000 years ago, a young man, a carpenter by trade, left his family business, his brothers and sisters, and travelled about the country side for a few years. He taught his neighbors that it is better to love than to hate. And, yes, even though their country was subject to a foreign, occupying force, all could live happy healthy lives by caring more for each other than fighting against the occupiers. You can read the entire written record of what he said in less than two hours. Much of it is very good advice. And should you choose to follow that advice, you will probably be a better person for it. His name was Joshua, son of Joseph. Some have called him Jesus. 

I suppose, if you follow his teachings, you are a follower of Jesus. Isn't that what it means to be a Christian.

Isn't all the rest just fighting about whether you should put ketchup on a hot dog?

Mike


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

Mike said:
			
		

> I suppose, if you follow his teachings, you are a follower of Jesus. Isn't that what it means to be a Christian.
> 
> Isn't all the rest just fighting about whether you should put ketchup on a hot dog?
> 
> Mike


Well, that's basically what I believe...lol...I could have said that in the first place...heheh...instead of lashing out and causing this whole debate spanning from 2-3 different forums...yeah...so basically what I believe is that if you are a true christian, no matter what religion you have, as long as it isn't islamic, buddhist, hindu, etc. ...such under the Christian category, being one who believes in God and has accepted Christ as personal Lord and saviour and all that I have said in the post above, then you are a Christian...plain and simple...good works and stuff won't get you into heaven, there is one word faith...so, to say that Catholics aren't Christians is to say Baptists aren't Christians...the only dividing line is that I've met plenty of Catholic churches that preach the way I've mentioned in a bunch of posts in the other threads...but like I said, not all Catholics are Christians...it's just a debate...and I have alot of Catholics friends who are Christian...so, it all depends on the doctrine you follow...some lead you in Christ to Salvation and some lead you to other ways of getting to Heaven that is not truee...the only way to Heaven is Redemption through the holy Blood of Jesus Christ...that's what I believe...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 25, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Well, that's basically what I believe...lol...I could have said that in the first place...heheh...instead of lashing out and causing this whole debate spanning from 2-3 different forums...yeah...so basically what I believe is that if you are a true christian, no matter what religion you have, as long as it isn't islamic, buddhist, hindu, etc. ...such under the Christian category, being one who believes in God and has accepted Christ as personal Lord and saviour and all that I have said in the post above, then you are a Christian...plain and simple...good works and stuff won't get you into heaven, there is one word faith...so, to say that Catholics aren't Christians is to say Baptists aren't Christians...the only dividing line is that I've met plenty of Catholic churches that preach the way I've mentioned in a bunch of posts in the other threads...but like I said, not all Catholics are Christians...it's just a debate...and I have alot of Catholics friends who are Christian...so, it all depends on the doctrine you follow...some lead you in Christ to Salvation and some lead you to other ways of getting to Heaven that is not truee...the only way to Heaven is Redemption through the holy Blood of Jesus Christ...that's what I believe...


Wolf,

You state you are a Christian I have to accept that.

Yet, How do you know for sure that those Catholics you say are not Christians have not really accept Jesus Christ as their Savior? How do you know? Have they told you? Are they children who do not understand the question?

And I am not upset with you. I am just trying to converse with you, with out being called a non christian or told I am going to hell. I am not mad nor is my Blood pressure raised.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

ok for the last time, I didn't point anybody out about that at all...geez...I was just mentioning things...and I never said anybody was not a Christian...it was just a comment...and yes, I'm trying to keep the comments down...sorry...I kind got unleashed on here...yeah, I'm still going to be intolerant of other religions that don't accept Christ as Personal Lord and Saviour...and I'm still not getting a straight answer...lol...heck I'm not getting any answer at all...what about? What do you believe it takes to become a Christian?...hopefully this won't be an open question without any answers...lol


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 25, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ok for the last time, I didn't point anybody out about that at all...geez...I was just mentioning things...and I never said anybody was not a Christian...it was just a comment...and yes, I'm trying to keep the comments down...sorry...I kind got unleashed on here...yeah, I'm still going to be intolerant of other religions that don't accept Christ as Personal Lord and Saviour...and I'm still not getting a straight answer...lol...heck I'm not getting any answer at all...what about? What do you believe it takes to become a Christian?...hopefully this won't be an open question without any answers...lol


A Christian is someone who believes in Christ in the appropriate way according to their formalized system.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

?!


GAAAAH!!!! why did I even ask...well there was some hope there...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 25, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ?!
> 
> 
> GAAAAH!!!! why did I even ask...well there was some hope there...


What did you expect from me? I am the one that accepts others. I do not pass judgement, nor do I assume they are right or wrong.

I am also the Christian who also claims to be the Zen Christian (* It really does not exist *) as Zen is a personal path, so I look at anyones' path with their religion. No matter what that path may be.

:asian:


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 25, 2004)

like I said:

?!

OOOOOW!!!!


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## qizmoduis (Feb 26, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> yeah, I'm still going to be intolerant of other religions that don't accept Christ as Personal Lord and Saviour



Well, isn't that sweet?  And people wonder why the world is in the terrible state it finds itself these days.  It's because of this attitude expressed above.

Well, as an atheist, I have no problem tolerating your religion, even if I find it's beliefs unrealistic, so long as you folks leave me to my own devices.  But YOUR beliefs, I find to be morally repugnant.  Your parents should've taught you better.


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## loki09789 (Feb 26, 2004)

Nicely put qizmodius,

If accepting Christ as your personal savior is personal for you, it should be personal for everyone, and that was part of the message that Jesus was proclaiming:  The institution can not tell you what your relationship with God is or is not.  No one Christian church can tell me what path or what way is the 'right way.'  You have to make it right within you.  Free will and all that.

Repecting anothers path, being an example of what your faith should be.... If your faith is personal, then so is mine or any one elses.  Wish us well, pray for us, but don't judge us.  Christ did not stand for any one institution, people long after he was dead started claiming ownership on the franchise, and made some pretty political and worldly messes because of mixed motivations/arrogance and greed.

Put as bluntly as possible:

Wolf:  Get off of your moral high horse.

The idea that no man can save himself with good deeds is an important message for a Christian.  Accepting Jesus as the Messiah is essential to Christian faith.  Based on this idea, the motivation to follow the teachings of Jesus is NOT the fear of damnation but the expression of love of Christ.  You might accept Christ, but you are not expressing much love of him when you talk about intolerance.

Paul M


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## someguy (Feb 26, 2004)

I should say that this thread was not directed 100% at you wolf but more like to sooooo many people out there who say this sort of things.  It seems particularly rampant in the south (at least where I live)  though I am also not saying all southerners are like this as I my self am a southerner.
Now as for you saying you will continue to be intolerant towards other religions WWJD comes to mind.  Was Jesus intolerant to other religions. Nope he tolerated them but tryed to get them to convert.  He did not smite them where they stood as I recall.  Maybe I'm wrong though who knows.
 :asian: peace :asian:


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

Oh Paul, just shut up...I'm sorry, but call it a moral higher horse, or whatever, but I will not tolerate any religions...besides, mine isn't a religion, it's a lifestyle and way of life...I'm not backing down on the subject, but I won't argue with open-minded people either. And in my understanding, I'm not a bigot or a morally high person on his horse he believes that he's better than everyone else, it's just I've found a Truth that many will spend their entire lives searching for and will never find, sadly.

In my opinion and what a ton of other true Christians have said, being closeminded is what is good. My mind is protected by Jesus Christ and is closed to the thought of being in a religion, especially one that does not honor God or have a personal relationship with him. You can go your path, but I'm going mine. Also, Christ keeps things from entering my mind by closing it and keeping me able to be defensive. 

I would like to say one thing: I am sorry about the way I went about attacking everyone. I should have done it in Love. And arguing with openminded people is like trying to get a mule or donkey to do something that it doesn't want to do. Not until you've understood the full Truth will you come to the conclusion that Christians are not bigots, but followers of the One and Only True Living God, the God of Israel. To go with that, yes he is the God of Israel, as referred to in the Bible, but the Jews rejected God when he came to earth, and killed him, so how you Jews say they worship God without having a personal relationship throuh Christ Jesus? Well, that one is simple: They can't. I feel bad for the Jews. I really do. 

I'm not bringing up why I feel bad for the Catholics, because this forum is set up just to attack people like me. And don't say it's not all about me. It's kinda of funny that the person who started this forum started it right after I made my statements about Catholics not ALL being Christians. hmmm...pretty pathetic if you have to actually do that just to prove in a counter-attack that Catholics are Christians. THe world knows that Catholics are "Christians", but that's the world's view. In God's eyes, a Christian is one who has accepted that they are a sinner and need redemption through the shed Blood of Christ. They accept the fact that He died for them and that they are not Perfect. God loves us. It's just us who don't love him, unless we are Christians. 

And to those who are calling me a nonChristian: Yes, I may have been a bit rash in how I went about my typing, but if you TRULY are a CHRISTIAN then you understand my words. I'm not sorry for what I said, just the way I said it. But, you'll never sway me from the fact that all Religions are wrong, it just matters whether you've chosen your life to be a Christian and follow Jesus Christ. And I don't care what you all think, it's my belief and my want to follow Christ. He is where my Joy is. So, naturally, I want others to know the Joy I have. And if they don't want it, scorn it, toss it aside, then I pity them because they have rejected Salvation and Love. I love the Lord Jesus Christ and he has rescued me from the Pits of Hell, and given me New Life.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

Ah, but I'm not intolerant to the point that I don't want to convert. Yes, I have friends that believe different that me. I don't excommunicate them. I try to convert them. That doesn't mean that I would go to their church. 


Ok, maybe tolerate is a bit too strong a word, but in my mind I don't tolerate religions without God and Jesus Christ as their focus. and that they don't believe in Christ the way I do. But I don't just go around saying, "YOU, BUDDHIST, YOUR GOING TO HELL AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU!!!!"...lol...no...I just am saying what my opinions are and my beliefs...I have long theological talks with many friends who are not Christian...and I don't shut them out of my life. I pity them and want to help them. I just don't tolerate their beliefs in my life. As I see it, I will not be swayed...


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## someguy (Feb 26, 2004)

I explain that I did not do this to insult you then you call me pathetic and also say I am being untruthfull?  THis is what can be implied by your statments.  Take a breath now another then consider what you said.  Now if you still mean what I have said above than I don't really care so be it.  I intend to let it slid either way.
I think that is enough on that but no that this thread was not meant to attack you.  Your posted only made me post this here as it is becoming a GIANT pet peave of mine to hear catholics aren't christians.
hope that made sense


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## Nightingale (Feb 26, 2004)

Wolf-

The people I've seen who've been most effective about bringing people to Christianity have been the folks who've stopped talking about it and started living it.


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## OULobo (Feb 26, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Ok, maybe tolerate is a bit too strong a word, but in my mind I don't tolerate religions without God and Jesus Christ as their focus. and that they don't believe in Christ the way I do. But I don't just go around saying, "YOU, BUDDHIST, YOUR GOING TO HELL AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE YOU!!!!"...lol...no...I just am saying what my opinions are and my beliefs...I have long theological talks with many friends who are not Christian...and I don't shut them out of my life. I pity them and want to help them. I just don't tolerate their beliefs in my life. As I see it, I will not be swayed...




I don't think that you are intolerable of other religions, you just believe emphatically in your personal religious choice and are trying to show others your beliefs in hope that they will see what you see as the error of their ways and in so doing change their behavior and belief to something more akin to your own.


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## OULobo (Feb 26, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> it is becoming a GIANT pet peave of mine to hear catholics aren't christians.



This is my issue too. That and that some of the statements made earlier were flat out wrong. I would have to say that the best way to argue this point and to resolve the situation is to say that anyone he believes that Catholics aren't christian should attend a mass and speak with a preist. Some of the things I heard earlier miffed me because they were misconstrued and rather uneducated opinions. I sought not to attack, but to enlighten by describing the motivation, symbolism and belief of a Catholic.


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## loki09789 (Feb 26, 2004)

Wolf,

The point that, as a Christian, saved by the blood of Christ, we still have free will to choose how we behave when we realize that, no matter what, we are saved because of that ultimate sacrifice.

"Oh Paul, just shut up...I'm sorry, but call it a moral higher horse, or whatever, but I will not tolerate any religions...besides, mine isn't a religion, it's a lifestyle and way of life...I'm not backing down on the subject, but I won't argue with open-minded people either."

And you have chosen to act like this.  I have expressed my understanding of your faith system.  I find your language very non Christian in tone and nature, based on ANY Christian lifestyle/religion/faith.  

Look up some research about those who don't tolerate other peoples faiths in relation to the Carlisle schools and the number of dead Native American children on the boarding school rolls because the institution, not willing to tolerate other religions, wanted to elevate the lives of those poor dirty pagans.  

Tolerance comes from understanding, it doesn't mean you have to agree.  It does mean that you won't judge others or attack them because of those differences... sounds awfully christian to me.

Paul M


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## Nightingale (Feb 26, 2004)

Matthew 7:1-5

Judge not, that ye be not judged.  

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.  

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  

Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam in thine own eye?  

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> This is my issue too. That and that some of the statements made earlier were flat out wrong. I would have to say that the best way to argue this point and to resolve the situation is to say that anyone he believes that Catholics aren't christian should attend a mass and speak with a preist. Some of the things I heard earlier miffed me because they were misconstrued and rather uneducated opinions. I sought not to attack, but to enlighten by describing the motivation, symbolism and belief of a Catholic.


I personally enjoy discussing things with priests.  They often times have a much greater insight into things than you see sitting in the back pew on Sundays.  I've had some good debates as well, and have almost always come away with a greater understanding of things.

I was once told "its a shame you're not a christian bob.  You 'get it' better than half the people in my church."  I do understand it, and see alot of good in the faith.  Its just not my path.

A friend of mine just found his.  He was hesitant to talk to me about it.  I told him "We've been friends for like, ever. You've found something in your life that you've been missing.  I won't ridicule you or demean you over that. I'm happy for you.  I will however ask, when you found Jesus, did he admit to knowing your aunt?" (Note: shes one of the nutty types).  He had a good chuckle and we moved onto other things more important than if my Goddess could out dance his God, y'know?


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## OULobo (Feb 26, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> A friend of mine just found his.  He was hesitant to talk to me about it.  I told him "We've been friends for like, ever. You've found something in your life that you've been missing.  I won't ridicule you or demean you over that. I'm happy for you.  I will however ask, when you found Jesus, did he admit to knowing your aunt?" (Note: shes one of the nutty types).  He had a good chuckle and we moved onto other things more important than if my Goddess could out dance his God, y'know?




Awwww. I'm gettin all warm and gushy inside. J/K

If you think talking to a priest is fun, try talking to a rabbi. They are a blast. They are down to earth, learned and well read. 

Consequently, I have noticed that modern day clergy are very good at being secure in their beliefs and not pressing them on to you. They are also very good listeners and give great advice on non-religious matters. I don't know if it is the training, the job itself or the type of person that it frequently attracts, but they are great to talk to.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 26, 2004)

I walk my path.

I expect others to walk their path, no matter what path it is.

Sometimes we cross and the flow is good, other times we are counter productive.

In Free Will if you cannot choose your own path then, there is no free will.

Wolf, if you believe the way you do, can I ask why you do? Do not answer me, just think about it for yourself.  Do you believe the way you do because of what you were told as a child? Because of what your parents believed? Or did you actually go out and choose a faith, by truly investigating others. If you are just spitting back up the rhetoric of your parents and family, then are you truly of a religion. Or are you just socialized to what is acceptable to your family. Like I said, I do not expect an answer.  I just wish for you to think about it.

For you see if I apply your logic, to your comments here.

You are a sinner. You are going to Hell.

You cast judgement. You throw the first stone, out of hate, and fear and self rightousness.

Since you will not tolerate me. If I do not tolerate you, and insist that you are wrong unless you do it my way, because GOD IS ON MY SIDE, then I can say you are going to hell. I can cast you out of the Christian Faith, for you are not a Christian.

As done in the past I could say Might is Right, and challenge you to a fight. If I win you must convert to my religion or die. And if you win, then I would have to do the same. Is your faith strong enough to defeat me? Is your faith strong enough to handle the thought of you being converted? (* For this is what you do to others by trying to convert them. *)

Yet, I choose not do and of this. I ask you to sit back, and think upon what you have said, and how you have said it. Think on how you have called me and others a JackASS and stupid, and ..., . When if you were to look into the mirror you might find what you are describing for not allowing others their own path and their own free choice.

Offer a helping hand to those that you see in trouble. Offer a smile to those who are sad. If your inspiration comes from your religion then so much the better for you. Do not convert people at the tip of a sword, which in my stupid crazy and going to hell opinion, I believe you have been trying to do.

Breath In
Breath Out (* Machine Head by Bush *)

Think about it. Not for me. For your self. For if you believe you cannot learn, even patience for people like me, then you are saying you are like gos and need more time on this earth.

Breath In
Breath Out

Relax and think about it.

Peace
:asian:


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## loki09789 (Feb 26, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I don't know if it is the training, the job itself or the type of person that it frequently attracts, but they are great to talk to.



I would think it is the combination of all these categories.  Much like a martial arts master who can see and recognize the concepts/elements of all martial arts as present in their personally chosen art, but respect and recognize other structures even if they don't agree with the set up.

Paul M


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

I have not cast judgement on anyone. You have been the one to throw the first stone. I merely have stated my OPINIONS, and as such they seem to be like a dart to you, and I am sorry the ways I have said them, but seriously, look at it from all sides. 

And yes, my Parents have raised me to be a Christian, but I've done my own studies along with them because of my love of God. I'm not being a Christian just to pacify my parents. And it may sound that I'm some kind of fundamentalist, but I've been sorting through stuff. And, if anything, I'm not a fundamentalist, I just get upset with the fact that people don't realize the truth. I guess I've got to tone it down a bit. I've been in a debate with what used to be my best friend(knew him since I was 3) and now he's on a path to destruction(you all know what I mean...party life, sex, alcohol...) and I used to think he was a Christian, as such he told me so. Now he's an atheist. And from the debates we've had(he likes the blunt way of saying things, so I've gotten used to blunty stating things), he still see the only way to life is party. And yes, everyone has their own right to whatever path they want, be it heaven or hell, but it hurts to see a friend go through the trauma he goes through...

So, what I'm tryin to say is, I'm sorry, I've just gotten used to bluntly stating the facts when I type. I shouldn't have attacked the Catholic religion like that, but I also know so many catholic people who call themselves Christians and then I ask them what I've asked you, and they say they will get to Heaven on good works and such and that because they are catholic, they are also Christian. Having the type of Church you go to slapped onto your "religion" tag does not make you a Christian, no matter what anybody says. Being a Christian has more to it than just that. 

Yes, I've been rude, but being rude does not mean I'm not a Christian. Christians are not perfect. I'm a sinner like the rest. But if we were perfect, why then would we need God or Jesus for that matter? 

I'm sorry for typing snidely, and plan to be more responsible. And if you to condemn people, think yourself. I am a Christian, because I truly meant the sinner's prayer and believe that Jesus died for me. I love Jesus, and whether you like it or not, I'm going to Heaven because of that. And is my FAITH strong enough to be converted to another religion. That is not going to get a straight answer, because I wouldn't take the whole world and then some to convert to another religion. My FAITH is strong enough to resist the temptations of another religion. I WILL NOT convert to another religion, only because I have seen the Truth, whether others do not see what so many that I know, including me have seen.

And as to converting by the sword, well, I don't do that. I only spouted things on here, because it was seriously conversational. Only like an email that I would receive whenever I checked rather than bold face. I love people and do not want to see them go to Hell. That is why I have been so vehement. Whether you believe me or not is up to you, but I don't want to see even you go to hell. That's probably hard for you to see, but I don't want anyone going to hell. AND NO I'M NOT PASSING JUDGEMENT ON YOU. I don't know where you are exactly in your FAITH. So, I'm just stating that I don't want anyone to go to hell. So, don't turn it around and say, "Well, your condeming me to hell!"...because I AM NOT! 

Anyways, I've got to go to Work now. So, I'll be back on later. Bye


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 26, 2004)

Wolf,

I am sorry you are having problems with you friend.
:asian:

Yet,

On one hand you say you are not passing judgement.

On the other hand you are saying if I do not do exactly as you are doing then I am going to hell. So, you are passing judgement on me and others. Because I do not belong to your church and follow your rules to the truth you believe. I am going to hell. 

I do appreciate the fact that you have stated you will try to present yourself better.


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## loki09789 (Feb 26, 2004)

"So, what I'm tryin to say is, I'm sorry, I've just gotten used to bluntly stating the facts when I type."

Personally, I can accept the apology, but I can't understand the inconsistency of the 'opinion' statement and then the above.  Is it fact or opinion.

I am Catholic and have been asked the question about being saved and why.  Honestly, it is a trick question because, according to Baptists, there is only one way to answer it.  Anything else is 'wrong' and out comes the sales pitch.

I 'witnessed' at a Baptist church in high school.  When I got older, I went through adult confirmation and the Catholic Church accepted my Baptism, with no documentation - based on the witnessing by my parents.  

The equivelant of 'accepting Jesus as my personal savior' from what I can tell in Catholicism is the idea of 'rising and dieing with the Lord' everyday.  Everyday I will rise - meaning be a truer expression of my love of Christ - when I do good deeds and conduct myself according to Christ's teachings.  In the same day, I will die with the lord when I act/behave outside the teachings of Christ.  As far as I understand, Baptists acknowledge the daily struggle as well, but the Catholic wording speaks to the constant and never ending cycle of sin and forgiveness that we all go through.  The terms and language might be different, but the idea of acknowledging personal imperfection and powerlessness and accepting that Christ is the way is in both faiths.  The importance of striving for good deeds and thoughts is also in both....

Another thing that I heard, from  a Church of England member, is that prayer doesn't change God, it changes me. 

Paul M


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## Tgace (Feb 26, 2004)

What do you think happens to a "good" person say of the Buddhist faith? This person does good deeds, helps others, lives a righteous life and is an all around good person. Just because he hasnt "accepted Christ as his savior" he goes to hell and eternal damnation?? While some people I see in church (who I know are some of the biggest a$$&@!es ) go to heaven?? If thats the way God plays this game then count me out.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

yeah, well TGrace...Those "asses" probably won't quite get high honors in Heaven...They go, but also did they truly accept Christ also? You gotta wonder sometimes. Yeah, I know what you think  of me, but I  have said so all too many times. But if you keep on trying for Christ after accepting him as personal Lord and Saviour and just not Give up, because he doesn't give up on you, then your going to have a big reward in Heaven...A nice big Mansion, a high place(as in the first on earth shall be last in Heaven, and the Last on Earth shall be First in Heaven). That's what's the reward. They may not get much other than a shack and some small position in heaven because they aren't doing much other than asking for fire insurance...


And Rich...I was talking as a whole...you can believe what you want, but it's in writing...I said NO I AM NOT CONDEMNING YOU...And if you are Saved, then I'm happy for you and I was just saying that as an example...I don't want anybody going to hell...like that, not I don't want everybody including Rich Parson, who is going to hell...blah blah blah...I never said anything like that in the above post...And, I don't know what else to say, other than unbelievers, from the Truth that I believe go to hell...and it is shared by all too many, not just me...and also, it's not just "my church", the Baptist, Methodist, etc. are not the only one's that share this belief in Christ...it's alot of denominations...so, I would say it's a lifestyle rather than not believing the way a church believes...do you believe in the lifestyle?

And anyway, I try to tone it down a bit and all you can do is criticize me...I mean come on...lol...j/k

And Loki, I can't say it's a fact...I know it to be a fact, but some people around here don't want to here the word fact, and they start tearing into me..so I say opinion...to you and me, it's a fact...and you did accept Christ though verbally, right? I mean asked for forgiveness, said the sinner's prayer and acceptance of sin, eh? Good works won't get you to Heaven, it's belief and faith in the lord Jesus and all that I just mentioned...JUST ASKING...And  Rich, don't go slice my head off with a katana, please...And if you want to say I'm shoving it down people's throat, I'm just asking a question...I haven't passed judgement...it's in words, no judgement, just a question, ok?!


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## Tgace (Feb 26, 2004)

So how do you know that a person is truely "saved" and not just hedging his bet by going through the motions, like the folks who go to church but are some of the rudest, nastiest people out there? I believe that its actions and personal quality that count in Gods eyes, not what comes out of a persons mouth....


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

Too true. (and normally, I don't say stuff so bluntly the way I did earlier...lol...just wanted to point that out...), but anyways, yeah. People say they have been saved, yet the only people who know the truth, except for the true actions and words, are God and that person. Other than that, you can't truly know. I wonder about a few kids at church. Are they dragged there and just want to look good? I mean one kid I know, him and his friend are always making sick jokes, and they asked me some sick stuff, to which I've ignored, or gave a rephrase of what they said and then nicely put it into gentlemenly words. Save Face. That's the only way they can do it.  

Too many people take God's love for granted. They get all gungho and do it and that's it. They just leave it at that. No more work for God. He did his thing, and I did my thing. Now I can live my life and PARTY!!!...YEAH!!!...Sadly that's not it. I know all too many people like that. 

I don't fit in some of my friends, who are Christian, but they like to hang around and play filthy games like Grand Theft Auto 1-vice city, manhunt, and other sick, perverted, and homicidal games. I think it's sick playing games where you just walk into the living room and attack some woman with a metal pipe and just hit her until her head flies off and blood is all over the place and her head roles around. And then they keep hitting her and laughing their heads off. I think it's sick and revolting. I mean, I know the whole, well I wouldn't do that in real life routine, but still, living out your sick fantasies?! oh well, I guess everybody has a little problem here and there. Lol. They are ok everywhere else but there. Games are an issue. I think I'm going to ask my Youth Pastor to bring up a sermon on Wednesday nights about the violence in Video Games. 

The only M rated game I have are a game called ZOE, where you control mech robots and the only reason it's rated that is for the cuts people get from small metallic explosions and the blood of someone getting squashed by a falling mechbut it looks like oil. I mean, seriously, I don't like that, but the rest of the game is alright, just that one part. and it's dramatic and at the beginning, and only like 10 seconds long, not even...and it's not graphic.

I have a shooting game, but that's it. I hate bloody games, and nudity in the games too. And cursing. I try to avoid blood, gore(well, that's never in games I play...), and cursing. I flat out won't play nude games.

Anyways, that was of subject. That was called a tangent. Something of mine that's gonna bug me forever. lol..sorry...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

Oh yeah, and to go along with the issue of whether or not to tell if someone is or isn't...here's something I've kept with me since I hear it in Ultimate Spider-man #38(yes, I read comics, got a problem with that?!...lol)"Everyone trying to be more than they are--which would be fine if they actually earned it, but more and more---it isn't the case. And that's what drives me nuts. I find myself surrounded by people who will do or say anything just for the appearnace that they are better than they are. More than they are. Never for a second do they actually try to be better. They just want to appear better. THey want to be special without going through the trouble of having earned it."

That was from a video tape in the comic that was being watched and it was Peter Parker's(Spider-man's) dad saying it on tape. It was like 10-12 years prior to this comics supposedly, before his dad died. Anyways, it kind of reminds me of alot of people. Many people I know will go to all the work of looking like they are something they are not, but they won't go an actually be it. They may spend their whole life looking like it, but in the end, they never actually had it. I'd rather have gotten it half way through and then be able to be proud of having done it. Applies to Christianity. Alot of Christians will accept Christ and then they just kind of fall away. Anyways, I took up another post. Didn't know if you guys thought it was good. I didn't mean it toward any of you, just wanted to post it, cause I thought it would help better define people, even outside of Spiritual life.


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## michaeledward (Feb 26, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> ...But if you keep on trying for Christ after accepting him as personal Lord and Saviour and just not Give up, because he doesn't give up on you, then your going to have a big reward in Heaven...


I would suggest you visit with your local preacher. Discuss with him the concept of 'GRACE'. In traditional fundamentalist Christian beliefs, there is no 'trying for Christ'. You are saved only through His grace. You can live you life as a total piece of crap and if, in that last millisecond before you die, you ask for Jesus to forgive you, and guide you, you are entitled, by Grace, to all the riches of heaven.  (Later Day Saints may discuss with you the seven different levels of heaven ... but most other Christians don't accept these levels of heaven).

If you are a Buddhist (little wheel or great wheel), and lived your life according to the four noble truths and the eight-fold path, you are by Christian understanding and doctrine condemned to hell. Of course, this is also true if you are a practitioner of the most populous faith on the planet, Hinduism, or if you follow the teaching of Confucius, or Lao Tzu and his Taoist beliefs (the Way).

The arrogance of Christian beliefs amazes me. As I have previously stated, I am an atheist ... but not through ignorance. I suggest as a starting point to understand human beliefs; Huston Smith's   "The Religions of Man"  or the updated version  "The World's Religions" ISBN 0-06-250811-3

Go In Peace - Mike


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

Ummm...I didn't say anything about Not being saved by Grace...being saved by Grace is the only way to be saved...You can't be saved by works...I wasn't saying any of that...The point I was trying to make was storing your treasures up in heaven...You ever heard of the phrase, well done my good and faithful servant? 


Anyways, Yeah, like I said, you go to heaven once you accept Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour...but Christ also says in the Bible about many rooms...It is also said that you should store your "treasures" up in heaven, meaning that you should try your hardest to win souls, and do help others in the name of Christ and how God would want you to behave. Oh, yes you can go to heaven with accepting Jesus with your final breath, but wouldn't you rather go to heaven, knowing you did all you could on earth to help the lost? THat's what I meant...sure you can go through life without doing anything but accepting Christ and then party hardy the rest of your life, but I'd rather have fullfilled my purpose on earth rather than just have lived life for myself...it's called dying to self and living in Christ... as it says

For anyone who gains his life will lose it, but if anyone loses his life for me, he will gain life(paraphrased)...

I understand the grace issue, not why we deserve it, cause we don't, other than I understand that God's love is so great, he doesn't want us to perish...but yeah, I understand being saved by Grace and Faith, instead of being saved by works, which people who don't understand believe is the way to heaven...to do good deeds your whole life and you go to heaven...that is just nothing but a lie...

And also, you kind of took that out of context...don't start a fight with me please...if you read the whole thing, then you will understand...It's like what it says in the Bible that so many people have taken out of context

It's just like this part that so many people have taken this part of the bible out of context "There is no God". It actually says something like "But the fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God' "...

So please don't misquote me just to make a point...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 26, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> yeah, well TGrace...Those "asses" probably won't quite get high honors in Heaven...They go, but also did they truly accept Christ also? You gotta wonder sometimes. Yeah, I know what you think of me, but I have said so all too many times. But if you keep on trying for Christ after accepting him as personal Lord and Saviour and just not Give up, because he doesn't give up on you, then your going to have a big reward in Heaven...A nice big Mansion, a high place(as in the first on earth shall be last in Heaven, and the Last on Earth shall be First in Heaven). That's what's the reward. They may not get much other than a shack and some small position in heaven because they aren't doing much other than asking for fire insurance...
> 
> 
> And Rich...I was talking as a whole...you can believe what you want, but it's in writing...I said NO I AM NOT CONDEMNING YOU...And if you are Saved, then I'm happy for you and I was just saying that as an example...I don't want anybody going to hell...like that, not I don't want everybody including Rich Parson, who is going to hell...blah blah blah...I never said anything like that in the above post...And, I don't know what else to say, other than unbelievers, from the Truth that I believe go to hell...and it is shared by all too many, not just me...and also, it's not just "my church", the Baptist, Methodist, etc. are not the only one's that share this belief in Christ...it's alot of denominations...so, I would say it's a lifestyle rather than not believing the way a church believes...do you believe in the lifestyle?
> ...


Shaolin Wolf,

My Name is Rich Parsons, not Rick, not Rich Parson, without the 's' . You lack to detail can either be seen as an insult or a character statement about you.

And I am talking as a whole. You say you know the truth and have facts. Like I have said before the great think about religion is that it is FAITH based. Faith denies fact. It does not require fact, it onlky requires you to make a leap of faith and believe.

You see as a Christian you are stating that you knw the truth and the facts, and that the Baptists and the Methodist and the 7th day adventists and ..., are all going to hell because they do not follow the exact same interpratation that you have been taught. They do not follow the same rituals as you. This is your arrogance. This is your self rightousness in action.


I might be able to slice your head off, yet I choose to debate and maybe allow both of us to grow. 

You see I can handle the questions. From your own words you have stated you will not tolerate others who do not believe in THE TRUTH. Your Truth. I accept that you belive it. Yet, you do not accept the possibility that I ight also be right. For to do so, it would attack your beliefs, and your sand castle and house of cards would come crumbling down.

And yes, there are those that believe if you ask in the last minutes of your life and are honest, you shall receive. THere are other beliefs within the Christian umbrella all taken from the same book called the bible. Makes you wonder why some many different opinions, except for the arrogance of man to think he knows the real and rightous way, and to insist his way is the best.

Ask your questions. I applaud this. For in asking, you have taken the first steps.
:asian:


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 26, 2004)

What the heck is your problem? I said I'm a baptist...What are you talking about..?!?!?!...I believe that the Methodists, Baptist, etc. and such are going to Heaven!!!!!!!!...Man, did you get your wires crossed or what?...lol...no problem...


AND ANOTHER THING: I was talking to Tgrace about the issue, not you, so don't tell me what to do...merely asked a question and I answered to be what I know the truth...geez, read, man read...I'm not even talking self righteous...Get some sleep and relax...gosh...lol


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

I'm not being serious about the sword, it was merely a gesture...what I can't talk to one particular person without you having signs go up...I was not talking to YOU...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And another thing...Loki was asking if it was fact or just my opinion...he wanted an answer...man, just get some sleep...lol


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> What the heck is your problem? I said I'm a baptist...What are you talking about..?!?!?!...I believe that the Methodists, Baptist, etc. and such are going to Heaven!!!!!!!!...Man, did you get your wires crossed or what?...lol...no problem...
> 
> 
> AND ANOTHER THING: I was talking to Tgrace about the issue, not you, so don't tell me what to do...merely asked a question and I answered to be what I know the truth...geez, read, man read...I'm not even talking self righteous...Get some sleep and relax...gosh...lol


ShaolinWolf you get upset when I come at you wiht my opinions. You get upset when I make statements that I know are true to me. Yet, you deny this TRUTH.

Yet, you expect us to accept your TRUTH. So, the Mirror technique has upset you. I was hoping you would see it, and recognize it another, and then maybe yourself.

I am off to get sleep. Yet, Not because you told me too.

And AS to talking to Tgace, that is fine. Just do not mention me by name then. Maybe you need the sleep and to relax, and to ponder your own path.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> I'm not being serious about the sword, it was merely a gesture...what I can't talk to one particular person without you having signs go up...I was not talking to YOU...


I repeat then why did you mention me by name?


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And another thing...Loki was asking if it was fact or just my opinion...he wanted an answer...man, just get some sleep...lol


Yes Loki asked you a question.

Yet, you have not answered all my questions.

Maybe the three posts in a row is because I struck a cord? Or you might just need the sleep. Not sure


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And furthermore...I thought I was doing pretty good at keeping it toned down...that was just plain rude to go and say the stuff you did...I was trying to keep it controversial and then you just go and say...YOUR WRONG!!!!...YOU ARE TRYING TO PUSH YOUR BELIEFS ON EVERYONE...ok that's how I saw it, because from my point of view, I was just trying to be nice...


See, what I was trying to do was answer some people's questions, whether they were genuine or not...
another thing...the thing about you going to hell was just an example, since you said you were saved, that was just an example since you were the one making the riot...

I don't mean any of this with disrespect, but I mean, come on give me a break...I was toning it down and talking to other PEOPLE...not you...not you...and enough with the high horse thing...I am not on it...I'm merely answering the questions from my beliefs...yes this is a repeat of the paragraph above, but I want to stress my point...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

yes, I need sleep...but obviously so do you...lol


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And furthermore...I thought I was doing pretty good at keeping it toned down...that was just plain rude to go and say the stuff you did...I was trying to keep it controversial and then you just go and say...YOUR WRONG!!!!...YOU ARE TRYING TO PUSH YOUR BELIEFS ON EVERYONE...ok that's how I saw it, because from my point of view, I was just trying to be nice...
> 
> 
> See, what I was trying to do was answer some people's questions, whether they were genuine or not...
> ...


I repeat, then do not direct posts at me and I will not reply.

As to examples I can take examples. Can you? I think not.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

oh your hopeless...I'm not even telling you to accept my truth...I would like you to, but that's your choice, so quit putting words in my mouth that I didn't say...I'm not denying anything and the only chord you struck was the fact that you told me not to attack and now your doing it...LOL...heh...anyways, let's get a little more peaceable here...please...as I said, I'm merely stating my beliefs...STATING...does that me shoving it down your throat?!


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> yes, I need sleep...but obviously so do you...lol


 
Maybe, Maybe not? Just because you need something does not require me to have the same need.  This is the whole basis of this discussion. I do not have to be just like you. Free Will and choice.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Lol...this could go on forever...you love to argue don't you...lol...yeah, I don't love to, but I like to debate...but come on...ah...but you do need sleep...not tonight maybe, but the body can't go on without sleep forever...same as one can't go on without the truth forever...as with sleep, something will eventually break down... so you want to start on examples?


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Also, I did not write all that to upset you and say...LET'S FIRE ARROWS AT RICH AND SEE IF HE CAN DODGE...lol...I didn't even mean that at all...I jsut put the example in there because I knew you'd say something whether I said something or not and I didn't mean it but to the fact I knew you go after me like you are now...lol


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> oh your hopeless...I'm not even telling you to accept my truth...I would like you to, but that's your choice, so quit putting words in my mouth that I didn't say...I'm not denying anything and the only chord you struck was the fact that you told me not to attack and now your doing it...LOL...heh...anyways, let's get a little more peaceable here...please...as I said, I'm merely stating my beliefs...STATING...does that me shoving it down your throat?!


 
Stating does not equate to shoving it down my throat.

Yet, when you still make comments that you do not tolerate others. Do you tolerate others now? I think not, as  you state that I am the riot. Not really friendly. Also given this statement, "See, what I was trying to do was answer some people's questions, whether they were genuine or not..." , you still seem to be passing judgement. Yes, it will be hard to recover, from your preivous statements. You are going to have to really becareful. FOr you see you think you are being nice, yet your word choice does not always imply this.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And I wouldn't want you to be like me either...I'm me and I don't think you'd want another you either...lol...that would be scary...invasion of the evil twins...I could comment further on the evil twins thing, but then you'd get mad...heh


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Lol...this could go on forever...you love to argue don't you...lol...yeah, I don't love to, but I like to debate...but come on...ah...but you do need sleep...not tonight maybe, but the body can't go on without sleep forever...same as one can't go on without the truth forever...as with sleep, something will eventually break down... so you want to start on examples?


I require sleep, Yes. Need implies a desire or want.

And the word arguement means to present your case with or to someone else of opposing views. This word does not mean violence. Look it up.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

right back at you my friend...and another thing...I didn't say you were a riot...well not yet anyways...I said you were starting a riot...as in a one man riot...lol...not you were funny...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And your point is...?


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Also, I did not write all that to upset you and say...LET'S FIRE ARROWS AT RICH AND SEE IF HE CAN DODGE...lol...I didn't even mean that at all...I jsut put the example in there because I knew you'd say something whether I said something or not and I didn't mean it but to the fact I knew you go after me like you are now...lol


 
Here you are addressing me again. How am I to stop as long as you continue to reply?

So, you thin of me as being aggressive towards you. I hold not negative thoughts or aggresstion to you. I would like to see you grow, even if it nothing more than tolerance of other on this forum.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

what does violence have to do with anything...other than the sword thing...but seriously, you are way to far away to even smack me...other than the reputation thing...but oh well...lol...anyways, what was your point with the arguement statement?


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

See, that is my thought too...I wish to see you grow...I'm actually not mad either...and I was not thinking of you as aggressive, but you too must remember to use the correct wording...you sound a bit aggressive too...I'm not the only one who needs to think before they speak...not be taken as an insult...mind you...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And I wouldn't want you to be like me either...I'm me and I don't think you'd want another you either...lol...that would be scary...invasion of the evil twins...I could comment further on the evil twins thing, but then you'd get mad...heh


I have evil twins, and no this comment does not bother me. AS I have the Van Dyke facial hair I would be the evil as in all the TV series.

And yes, I got your jibe about me being the evil one.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And I know your not aggressive...I jsut meant that you were expecting me to be aggressive and the way you wrote stuff was that it sounded like you expected me to be the aggressive one...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

lol...I didn't quite mean it that way...but oh well...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

I didn't mean it as you were the evil one...I just meant evil...ah forget it...lol


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Have you noticed how many pages we've filled up with this topic...lol
And I'm getting punchy here...lol


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> See, what I was trying to do was answer some people's questions, whether they were genuine or not...
> another thing...the thing about you going to hell was just an example, since you said you were saved, that was just an example since you were the one making the riot...
> 
> .


You did say I was a riot, or making a riot.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

yes, I jsut state above...you missed the post...I said again that you were making a riot...yes I admitted I said that way up there...lol...missed it...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> what does violence have to do with anything...other than the sword thing...but seriously, you are way to far away to even smack me...other than the reputation thing...but oh well...lol...anyways, what was your point with the arguement statement?


I am right here, and can smack you up with words. Not reputation. I am discussing and arguing points with you. Not taking cheap shots.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Whack!!!


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## loki09789 (Feb 27, 2004)

If deeds don't count, why do we have the ACTS of the Apostles, just for decoration?  They did something with their calling.  Judas, according to some, was judged and condemned for his betrayal of Jesus...  something about his stomach blowing up,

You are saying that since we are not doing it the way you do it we are condemned to Hell.  Also, the sinner's prayer is no different than the Eucheristic prayers during mass that we say in the process of preparing ourselves for Communion.  "Lord I am not worthy to recieve you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."  That is how Catholics acknowledge that deeds alone won't get it done, 

but isn't the ACT of accepting Christ a DEED?  

Isn't it a mental shift, a spiritual letting go of the self for the whole?  

That DEED/ACT is significant and essential to your definition of salvation, why wouldn't obeying the 'Do unto others...' lessons be as important to a Christian God or any of the other wonderful and positive things that Jesus proposed?

All these lessons came from the earthly Jesus as Christ, why is it up to you or the Baptist doctrine to say that one deed is more worthy than another?  

Catholics have the Sacraments, which are deeds - done with the proper mental and spiritual letting go - as expressions of a love of Christ and a willingness to live by his teachings.

Religious practice justifies itself by picking which scriptures support their practices.

If you love your parents, you would not do things that would bring shame or embarassment on their name.  Why should that be any different when you are claiming Jesus as your joy?  Jesus sat with the whores and the tax collectors when no one else would.  He shone as a living example when preaching to them would only drive them away.  His DEEDS were how he preached as much as his signs/miracles or words.  So, I would say that deeds count for something.

Paul M


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> See, that is my thought too...I wish to see you grow...I'm actually not mad either...and I was not thinking of you as aggressive, but you too must remember to use the correct wording...you sound a bit aggressive too...I'm not the only one who needs to think before they speak...not be taken as an insult...mind you...


 
I only used the words to get your attention because you still would not think before typing. You would say you were sorry and yet, that you were right and others were wrong. 

And why would I have to grow, if I am baptized and in a state of grace, and have accepted. Would I not meet your definition?


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

lol...I know, but see that was not what I meant...lol..I meant why did you say nonviolence...I know words can be violent...but I mean that sounded like a reference to my sword statement?...lol...maybe not...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Have you noticed how many pages we've filled up with this topic...lol
> And I'm getting punchy here...lol


Yes quite obviously punchy.

Get some sleep and start again tomorrow


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Well, what I meant by the growth statement was the fact that I hope you can grow, as a fellow Christian would...All Christians need to grow...it's a must...we never stop learning...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

naaa...I'm not going to sleep yet...I'm reserving my strength here...lol...I'm just punchy with all the lols and comments that occassionally creep in...heh


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

WHo said deeds don't count...? I believe deeds count in storing treasures in heaven...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And Baptist have Communion...it's an act of remembrance...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And one deed is just as good as another...Just the act of accepting Christ, which is not deed, but an acceptance of Christ Jesus...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> WHo said deeds don't count...? I believe deeds count in storing treasures in heaven...


Ok, Now I know you are having a problem tonight. Earlier you stated that thsoe that go to church and priase their good deeds and believe they will get into heaven will not. (* Not an actual quote *) You stated you needed to have accepted the savior.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

You misunderstand me...Yes you have to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Saviour...but I was saying the deeds you do are treasures stored up in Heaven...ok?...that is what I meant...I thought you'd take two and two and put it together since your reading my posts word for word...well, post for post, since you've skipped a few here and there...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And another thing...you have serious issues with the bad rep thing...I'm not doing that to you...only once...


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## loki09789 (Feb 27, 2004)

Your stance that deeds won't win you salvation ONLY accepting Jesus as savior will.... sounds like you were saying that deeds don't count

By the way acceptance is a MENTAL ACTION, it is a choice.  It is a conscious state of being.  This should manifest in the deeds you do.  That is why I can respect the idea behind Baptist doctrine:  Once you have truly accepted Jesus, then your deeds will be expressions of love and your salvation, and your deeds/acts will be manifestations of that salvation..... What is confusing about that to you?

So, now one deed is as good as another, yet the act/deed of accepting Jesus is more important and the only true deed that will save you, and we are back to Baptist doctrine and we are wrong if we don't agree with you on this we are not 'saved' therefore wrong.  

You are intolerant and therefore your deeds express that.  Jesus was tolerant and even begged forgiveness on those who persecuted him.

It is really hard to take someone seriously in a theological discussion when there are all these LOL's and smiley faces, snide, petty and juvenile.

I don't think that Rich, myself or anyone else needs to be mocked or laughed at, let alone told to shut up or anything else.  Again, you are not expressing much love of Christ with this type of behavior.  You do seem to be expressing a love of self as proclaimer....it seems that you are using the state of salvation as an excuse to act like a juvenile, petty brat and not to express any love of Christ by letting that love manifest in your treatment of us, unworthy hellbound types.

I am done with this, there is no talking to bigotry and Anti-"me" ism.

Paul M


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

You know, there is also such a thing as fun, not just being austere...I'm not mocking anyone...that hasn't mocked me...and I'm being tolerant of you guys right now...and you are completely turning my words against me...ok you want to know what I believe?...

I believe that Acceptance of Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. That includes the sinner's prayer and a mental action. The deeds you do should be an act of love. Also, the deeds you do also store up treasures in heaven. 

Read my latest posts...ok not my latest, seeing as they were rambling because I'm tired and I'm sorry if you are insulted, but I happen to have fun when I type and don't mean to be rude. We are not all perfect. And I don't use my Christianity as a way to just be as beligerent as I want. I was just kind of expressing my anger in an act of trying to let it go. We all don't and shouldn't keep it bottled up. I'm sorry that you are mad at me Paul, but I don't happen to think that I mocked any more than Rich mocked me. I tried to keep it down, but at least I'm not cursing him out. And I'm not mad at anyone here. You are taking things the wrong way and not reading all my posts...ok there are way too many now, thanks to my ramblings, but come on.


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Oh, and also, I'm a kid and I'm a juvenile. Also, I like to have fun, do you? I like to blow steam off with a laugh. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was insulting Rich or anybody, but I'm not doing it as disrespect. I'm punchy tonight too. I'm getting off now...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

AND FOR THE LAST TIME, LOKI, RICH, AND ALL WHO ARE CATHOLICS, IF YOU ARE CHRISTIANS LIKE YOU SAY YOU ARE, ACCEPTING CHRIST AS YOUR SAVIOUR, WHAT THE HECK IS YOUR PROBLEM...YOU KEEP SAYING I'M CONDEMNING YOU TO HELL...I AM TALKING MAJORITY NOT YOU!!!!...sorry to shout but you guys keep missing the point...


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

And also, I'm around Christians who poke fun...So, I'm used to poking fun at people I like...it's just for fun...so if I've offended you, I am seriously sorry...I'm just used to that sort of thing...


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Your stance that deeds won't win you salvation ONLY accepting Jesus as savior will.... sounds like you were saying that deeds don't count
> 
> By the way acceptance is a MENTAL ACTION, it is a choice. It is a conscious state of being. This should manifest in the deeds you do. That is why I can respect the idea behind Baptist doctrine: Once you have truly accepted Jesus, then your deeds will be expressions of love and your salvation, and your deeds/acts will be manifestations of that salvation..... What is confusing about that to you?
> 
> ...


 
Paul M,

Yes, your deeds should be a reflection of your state of mind. Yet, I do not think everyone understands this simple thought and action. Hence the reason people will on one hand say they are sorry and on the other hand still attack and or mock you with their words.

Yes, some times you can talk to bigotry, and others times there is only a miracle for hope.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Well, what I meant by the growth statement was the fact that I hope you can grow, as a fellow Christian would...All Christians need to grow...it's a must...we never stop learning...


 
I have been talking with you. I have been trying to grow. You have insulted. Then you preached. Then you condemned. Then you apologized and gave a backhand insult. And now you are talking about fun.

Maybe you might have grown? Maybe you have decided to laugh at us.

I do not know.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And another thing...you have serious issues with the bad rep thing...I'm not doing that to you...only once...


I do not have issues with the bad reputation on this board.

You can click on it all you want. That is your choice. You stated I had done it to you. I replied I did not.

Now you are being argumentive about me having issues. Once again I do not undersand your reasoning.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> You know, there is also such a thing as fun, not just being austere...I'm not mocking anyone...that hasn't mocked me...and I'm being tolerant of you guys right now...and you are completely turning my words against me...ok you want to know what I believe?...
> 
> I believe that Acceptance of Jesus Christ is the way to heaven. That includes the sinner's prayer and a mental action. The deeds you do should be an act of love. Also, the deeds you do also store up treasures in heaven.
> 
> Read my latest posts...ok not my latest, seeing as they were rambling because I'm tired and I'm sorry if you are insulted, but I happen to have fun when I type and don't mean to be rude. We are not all perfect. And I don't use my Christianity as a way to just be as beligerent as I want. I was just kind of expressing my anger in an act of trying to let it go. We all don't and shouldn't keep it bottled up. I'm sorry that you are mad at me Paul, but I don't happen to think that I mocked any more than Rich mocked me. I tried to keep it down, but at least I'm not cursing him out. And I'm not mad at anyone here. You are taking things the wrong way and not reading all my posts...ok there are way too many now, thanks to my ramblings, but come on.


SW,

Hmmm, If you think i have been mocking you, then you missed my points. My points were that you acted in a certain way. You got upset when I acted the same way back at you. This was done so you could how un-friendly this is. Friendly is one of the requirements for this site. It also helps when you are trying to catch fly's with honey versus vinegar. So, then you begin to get upset at me with me examples of your logic applied back at you.

Oh Well. You can not talk to everyone


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And also, I'm around Christians who poke fun...So, I'm used to poking fun at people I like...it's just for fun...so if I've offended you, I am seriously sorry...I'm just used to that sort of thing...


To go from insulting and not being tolerant to poking fun at people within the same post or a few posts is difficult to do in the written form. No one sees your smile, or your body language.

This can be difficult to read about you.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 27, 2004)

Everyone,

Let us close this thread now. If you wish to continue the discussion about Christianity or similiar subjects, Please feel free to start a new thread. 

:asian:


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