# What happened to Modern Arnis



## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

Hi everybody,

lets start with the fact, that I am an outsider.
I am from Germany and do not know so much about the FMA or Modern Arnis structure in the US.
But there is something, that makes me really wonder and a little sad:

There were 2 top Modern Arnis events with VERY popular instructors like (in no particular order): Remy Presas Jr., Demetrio Presas, Datu Kelly Worden, Sr. Master Dan Anderson, Datu Tim Hartman, myself, Datu Dieter Knüttel, Punog Guro Tom Bolden, Dr. Jermome Barber, Bram Frank and many others.
As far as I understand this is ther very elite of (western) Modern Arnis instructors/Masters, exept the fact, that the whole IMAF fractions (all 3, Shea, Delaney and IMAF Philippines) were not present.

Now the Professor hat many thousand students, perhaps even some 10 thousands of students. And then, with this hype created about the Modern Arnis Symposium in Buffalo and the Marppio event in Tacoma, there were together in both events participating LESS THAN 100 SUDENTS!?!
Even though, the people that were there had a great time, this number of participants is very disappointing.

Just let me ask: What happened to the Modern Arnis?

Was it of too short notice? No
Were the camps too expensive? I don´t know, because I cannot judge the american market on that.
Were there not enough qualified instructors teaching? No
Are there only a few Modern Arnis students left? I don´t know

According to Tom Bolden and Dr. Jerome Barber, the gathering of the eagles, a similar Kempo event, recently had 800 participants.
We in Germany had 400 on our FMA Festival last year (ok, not only Modern Arnis, but there are by far not so many FMA practitioners in Europe than in the US).

So why were there so few Modern Arnis people participating at these 2 , looking at the instructors, extremly interesting and top of the list events?

Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to start a flaming war whose fault it is or he has done this and the other has done that.
I would just like to discuss on a sincere, honest level, what happened there and what could be done in the future, to bring together more people in a future Modern Arnis event.

In other words: Why did YOU did not go there? And I am not talking about personal problems like: I had to work and my sister married. Fair enough, but I am sure, the same reasons were there for many Kempo people, still there were 800 gathering.

Didn´t you go because the events were too far away from your place?
Was it too expencive?
Was it bothering you, that there were 2 events at the same time?
Did you have an issue going on with an instructor or organizer?
Didn´t you want to support an event with .... as an instructor/organizer?
etc.

I am not looking for names and explanation for the issues here, only for facts like: I did not go because I did not like one insturctor there or something like that. Please don´t get down to a personal level. This is not what I intend with this thread.

And what could be done. that YOU, who were not there, come next time?

Let us make this a constructive discussion, that may help to produce better turnout for fututre Modern Arnis events.



Best regards from Germany and hoping for a lively, sincere discussion.


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## dearnis.com (Jul 17, 2003)

Hello Dieter.
   Very fair, and I think constructive, questions.  Why did I not attend?  Several factors.
 1) Time off.  I am a full time police officer with very heavy on call requirements.  I am also, by far, the least senior in my unit (5 years service vs. 16 for the next "youngest"), so getting my on call covered is not easy.
  1a) we are also limited to no more than 8 days off between may and september.
   2) Cost.  High.  And the first bracket of discount pricing expired before I could even submit leave requests for the summer.
  3) Cost/conflicts.  I can only justify so many events per year.  I attended the WMAA camp in May, and am hosting a camp in October.  I just returned from the Sayoc Kali camp in July.  I am planning on attending Myrlino's event in Seattle in September.  This doesn't count 15+ single day events I will attend through the year.  You can see the expenses adding up.
  4) Organizations- not an issue.  I am a representative of the WMAA, but have always been happy to play with anyone.  
  We might also consider location: Buffalo is not exactly a central location.  Also Modern Arnis in the US has always been very regional in nature.
   Also, to revisit costs.  I teach a college club of about 25 committed students and have been able to turn up with as many as 20 at some events.  But that all turns on the promoter being able to work with me on costs; the symposium price structure was simply out of reach of most of my people.  For the remainder, they have to balance the money they spend on what they get.  The symposium, I'm sure, provided a nice overview of many senior instructors.  I am not sure this is what lower level students are best served by though.

Lastly, I think there was a very real concern on the part of many about political and other bickering.

Chad


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## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

Thanks for your answers Chad.
Gives me more insight and I am sure you are having a hard time getting your job and training organized. Do you have a private life too, that you have to fit in?


For all, who might also answer on this thread: My questions were merely examples for some reasons I could think of. Please don´t feel limited by the questions and answer free how you feel about your reasons.

Thank you


Dieter Knüttel 
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## progressivetactics (Jul 17, 2003)

My personal reason was:
1. I am very knew to Modern Arnis and still learning who and what everything is.  
2. I belong to 1 org. but unsure how 'openly' I would be treated, as it is not one of the participating groups (I know now, so it is not an issue).
3. I didn't learn about it until about 4 weeks prior to the event, and it simply wasn't enough time for me as I have fallen on more financial difficulty this past couple months.

I have no idea what the cost of the event was, so that ways no part into my decision, it simply wasn't an option at this time for me.
I would be very interested in attending the next one, if available.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 17, 2003)

If you look at the attendence of MA events throughout the US, you will find the average participation level to be within the 30-60 range.  The last couple of major WMAA camps were aprox. 50-60 people, with the minors being in the 30's.  (These are my estimates, not official head counts)

MARPPIO being the newest group seems to be drawing fair numbers.  I'm not sure if this is due to a combination of the WMAC also being heavily involved in the same events or not.

Scheas IMAF seems to have drawn 40's-50s on their events, but I'm not 100% certain.

No info on JD.

Historically, MA events in the US the last few years have drawn 20-80 attendees.  Without the 'draw' of Remy, plus the political BS, plus the economic situation, these numbers are bound to drop.  Modern Arnis is also not well known in the US (I had never heard of it prior to meeting Tim), so that may also be a cause.


Regarding the Symposium:  With respect to JB's promotion, it suffered from a few things.

1- Location : Buffalo is not a central location, more of an upper shoulder if you will.

2- Costs : The cost was a bit higher than that of comparable events.

3- Promotion : There was no central location to goto for information.  It was scatered throughout multiple threads here and on a few other web boards.  I do not recall it being listed in the major magazines though I may be wrong there. (I dont read them regularly).   A simple 1-2 page website centralizing all of the information and updates would have made things easier.

4- 'Name' level of the instructors : See the Scooby Gang thread.  Most of the instructors are 'unknowns' outside of small circles. The opportunity to train with a 'Presas' is more appealing to many than to train with someone who left the scene 10 years ago.  Now, I'm not saying anything about the 'quality' of instruction.  I'm saying that most of the instructors on the bill simply aren't 'known names'.


Why did -I- not attend?  Very simple.  I had a previous engagement in Toronto to do a seminar on web site design at a  convention.


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## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

> See the Scooby Gang thread



Where is that?

I don´t want to draw a comparason between the 2 events. I counted 40 in saturday morning, the Marppio event was 48, so ok a few people more but no big deal. Still, for the amount of webtalk around those events and the teachers attending (known in the Modern Arnis scene, which should be large enough to get a better participation)  the number of 90 people on these 2 events is not enough, becuase it were not normal seminars.

I think you were right, that there was no cantral information point, like a website or so, and only talk. perhaps one should have put the events in black belt or so. But I don´t know.

I don´t  say I could do it better. I am looking merly for the reasons to learn out of this past weekend.

Thanks


Dieter


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 17, 2003)

The Scooby thread was the one where you and I did all the google searches.  Its in the Modern Arnis forum.


The best way to make future events better is to look at where the past ones fell short and fix the shortcomings.  I do it with websites all the time. 

Gotta run, late for class. heh.:asian:


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## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

> The best way to make future events better is to look at where the past ones fell short and fix the shortcomings.



This is what I want to achieve with this thread.
Not that I will be doing the next, but it is never bad to learn out of these experiences for future events.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 17, 2003)

Dieter,
Two very important differences I want to point out is that 1) it is well known that you have a well structured organization with DAV in Germany while in the US, the only glue that kept many of us together was RP himself.  Once he died it was like throwing confetti into a fan.  I think in a few years the dust will settle and mutual support will be better.  2)  The vast physical space difference between the size of Germany (which is roughly the same square mileage of my home state, Oregon) and the US plays a big part in this as well.  Even RP didn't draw 400 participants in the US.  As to the Gathering Of Eagles, that happened roughly 8-10 years after Ed Parker's death.  We still have some healing time among the "family" before we have our own gathering of comparable magnitude.

I think it can and will occur and the Symposium was the first major step as it was the first non-specific organizational event put on.  WMAA, IMAF, WMAC, MARPPIO have all put on events.  Unfortunately, being put on by an organization at this time can give the impression that they are closed events.  A good example of this is the first two WMAA events.  Tim specifically added non-WMAA instructors to the teaching bill so as to emphasize that it was not exclusive.  Still, as it was a WMAA _sponsored_ event, many others decided not to show.  I'm sure that this has been the same for the other organizations mentioned above.

Our family has some healing time left.  We will get there with patience and persistance.  The Symposium was the first step.  Such diverse personalities as you, me, Tim, Bram, Tom getting together for such an event is a good sign.  It will happen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cthulhu (Jul 17, 2003)

Datu Inocalla had a Modern Arnis seminar along with some of the MoTTs in Florida that weekend.

Cthulhu


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## Dieter (Jul 17, 2003)

> The vast physical space difference between the size of Germany (which is roughly the same square mileage of my home state, Oregon) and the US plays a big part in this as well.



Hi Dan,

very valid and good information. Just a short information, that we had the people coming from 10 different countries, like England, Italy, Sweden France etc. But I understand your points.

Also a valid point is the 8 - 10 years since Ed Parkers death. OK. You see, I am only seeking information.

I have started the same thread at Datu Kellys Forum and he also wrote an interesting comment.


Thanks Dan and till soon


Dieter


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## dearnis.com (Jul 17, 2003)

> Gives me more insight and I am sure you are having a hard time getting your job and training organized. Do you have a private life too, that you have to fit in



Not any more.  Between training, 12+ hour days, call outs in the middle of the night, etc. my private life is largely a thing of the past.  

However, my ex and I have a nice house on the market if anyone is shopping in north wilmington.


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## Cruentus (Jul 17, 2003)

1. I don't know what it is like in Germany/Europe, or how competitive it is over there.

Here in the states, people are very competive. This, to me, is not a problem. It is o.k. to get on the floor and have a little friendly competition, whether it is through instruction, or semi-sparring. Everyone goes out for a beer afterwards, and we all remain friends.

Problem is, not many people share my above opinion. Everyone wants to be the best, but unfortunatily, bot everyone can be. Many people in the US Modern Arnis world want people to think that "they are the best," but they won't get on the floor next to another instructor for fear of being "shown up." They don't like to cross train either, for fear of having their illusions of "top dog" shattered. Some would rather be the biggest fish in their own fishtank, rather then explore the ocean.

This truth will hurt many, as it often does. What this behavior and fear causes is an inability for people to gather together, so we end up very segmented.

2. In regards to this sympo., the instructors weren't paid. This is no problem for me, it only costed me a few hours drive and my time. However, for career martial artists, I see this as a huge problem. Why the hell would MARPPIO or Worden or Shashir spend the $$ to come all the way over here for a seminar that they weren't getting paid for? When doing a big event like this, cost becomes an issue. for instructors and students alike. I know that you, Dan Anderson, some people from Washington State and Vancover Canada, and others made the sacrifice. Many others could not, however, and we need to respect that in the same way that I would expect people to respect me for not having been able to take trip out to California or Washington State to train as of yet.

This distance/cost problem unfortunatily leads to lesser #'s for events also. It is my understanding from friends that I have who are in Europe, you can mass-transit accrossed the entire contenent for only a fraction of the cost of travelling accross the US. This is a major factor.

3. There are a lot of people in our system, unfortunatily, who will smile at your face, then stab you in the back. They did this to each other when Remy was alive (some did this to Remy himself), but Professor was the glue to hold the mess together. Without him we are all broken up.

The biggest problem with this backstabbing and underhanding is that it has gone on "unchallanged" for too long. Now, since RP's passing, all kinds of ballyhoo is coming out of the woodwork. It was always there, it was just kept under raps. The problem with "keeping the infighting under rapps" is that nothing outwardly challanges these poor practices. The problem with exposing these poor practices is it takes a lot of "flame wars" to do so, and outsiders are often turned off.

So you see, it is a double edged sword, or a damned if you do/damned if you don't scenario.

I think actually exposing piss poor business practices, and unethical behavior is the only way to handle it. This is the only way to correct the behavior, so that our fellow modern arnis players will adopt a better way of handling and conducting themselves.

Unfortunatily, it'll probably be a few years more before all this stuff fully unwinds. In the mean time, there are those who are genuinly turned off by some of the B.S., so they have been staying away.

4. There are those who choose to stay independent for a very good reason. They are sick and tired of #3, and #1, so they stay away. They are just tired of the mess, and want to do there own thing. It will take a long time before these people decide to get involved in a Modern Arnis "gathering."

Here are a few things that might help answer the question.

Very good question, indeed, Datu Dieter!

       :asian:


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## arnisador (Jul 18, 2003)

I told Mr. Hartman I would attend if he wanted me there but he said that that wasn't necessary. I have been back to Buffalo for the WMAA Camp already and will be back again to train with Mr. Hartman and possibly yet again for a family visit so making an additional trip would have been really piling it on.

Beyond that, I expected there to be more "instructor melt" given such issues as the lack of compensation for instructors and that concerned me. Indeed, several of the people I would have liked to have seen canceled at some point (e.g. *Rocky*, just to name one). I do regret missing Mr. Knuttel and Mr. Frank, for example, and of course I always enjoy seeing Mr. Hartman and Mr. Anderson.

But on-target to your question, of the various scheduled instructors, it seemed to me that too many were ex-Modern Arnis people rather than Modern Arnis people. While it was certainly a gathering of people with an interest in Modern Arnis there were too many that aren't really doing Modern Arnis now, and certainly it was missing too many of the big players (IMAFs, Presas children, Mr. Worden, etc.). It would surely have been interesting to see the Filipino martial arts demonstrated there and in fact with the last-minute substitutions it seems to have taken on more of a Modern Arnis flavour but I saw too high of a "other FMA to Modern Arnis" ratio.

So, the main non-"life is busy" issues that kept me away were the expectation of significant instructor melt, and the perception that it was less of a Modern Arnis event than a Modern Arnis _inspired_ event. I said nothing of this in the times leading to the Symposium as it was certainly a risk to take it on--Dr. Barber is to be commended for putting forth the effort--and I didn't want to be a wet blanket.


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## Cruentus (Jul 18, 2003)

The event was definatily more of a FMA gathering rather then a Modern Arnis gathering.

I am not saying this to be negative, but this is just what happened given all of the Modern Arnis people who were unable to attend.

:asian:


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## Mao (Jul 18, 2003)

Did you say "ballyhoo" a couple posts ago? Ballyhoo? Haven't heard that in a long time.   
Dan Mc.


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## Cruentus (Jul 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *Did you say "ballyhoo" a couple posts ago? Ballyhoo? Haven't heard that in a long time.
> Dan Mc. *



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

And don't forget "Tom-Foolery"!

Chip, Chip, Cheerio! Tea and crumputs anyone!

Where's Datu Hoffman?


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 18, 2003)

Heres is my 2 cents FWIW

I believe there are several different reasons for the lack of participation in seminars such as this.

1) SM Dan Anderson brought up the point of size of the country between Germany and the USA.  Because of the size of the country (USA) martial arts here are a dime a dozen.  On any given weekend there are seminars offered all over the place by instructors of all different skill levels and rank levels in any number of different martial arts.

I remember driving to Oklahoma city (from Waco TX) to go to a Thaiboxing seminar in 1985 or so cause it was the closest place to see it (6 hour drive) now in the Dallas/Ft Worth area there are several schools that teach it and they will (have in the past) bring in instructors to teach it in seminars as well.

Where there were hardly any FMA type schools back then (in this area), now there are several around, and they bring in their instructors.  All of this dilutes the attendance at seminars, since they are so common now.

2) Quality of the instructors and students.  

3) Quality of the systems taught.

4) Political: lets face it some people won't go to a seminar of a different system or a different instructor, because their system is best so why go.  Or well I won't go see this person or that because I support so and so.

5) Expense:  One of the best vaules in a seminar I had was to go to Vancuover Can. to attend a GM Toboada seminar.  It cost $60 Can. $ and they had a private workout on Friday night, all day seminar Sat. and I was invited to attend a test the following day.  By US dollars at the time I think it was $45.00 that's less then some pay for a four hour seminar.

Last year we had GM E. Presas at a school here, some people got to attend it for under $100.00 ($80-90) for two full days of training. (I think $110 was the full price) However we broke even and didn't lose anything and every one had a great time.

But when you start trying to charge the same prices that GM Remy did then I think you start pricing yourself out of the market when you are not GM Remy.  And naturally attendance starts falling.

And I would like to interject something here on the Symposium.  I didn't think the cost was to much (at least the opening price) for a three day seminar.  In fact I thought it was quite reasonable compared to other events.  However with the instructors canceling etc. etc. I can see how people stayed away towards the end.  However I saw who I wanted to see with the exception of Rocky, I saw who I came to see and so for me it was a good value.  (This gets back to quality of instructors at the events.)

6) Location and other costs: Here again the Symposium being held where it was when they held it as an example.  Buffalo was at the height of tourist season planes were pretty full getting there and getting back, therefore if you were like me and waited to try and get a ticket I was quoted over $600 for a short flight on a commuter jet from Chicago.  Several of the hotels that I tried to stay at where booked solid.  This things factor in who will attend as well.  Since these costs can push the seminar cost over the edge of will a person attend or not.

I have attended camps/ weekend seminars in Modern Arnis and other FMAs every year since 95 sometimes 2-4 a year.  These are just some of the things that I've seen and experienced.

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 18, 2003)

I'll make this one short

One other thing I mentioned in my previous post was quality of students, let me explain.

Datu Tim mentioned that out of Buffalo there was a very small percentage of students who take the martial arts who are in a FMA related system.  And I find this pretty true every where else I've been as well.

But many students (here in the states) don't think it's important to go get some different viewpoints outside of there own little school.  They are for the most part close minded.

In the past at a IMAF camp I had the pleasure of meeting Gabbi from Germany and I think a couple of her students, this time I got to meet Dieter and his student.  From what I remember of this small selection of people was that they were very precise and very good, in technique, form, knowledge etc. etc.

I generally don't see that of the students here in the states, myself included.  Maybe it's because many of the students here don't value what they are being taught because it is plentiful and they don't value what they are receiving.  Going to see the source or the head of a system doesn't mean anything to them.

I'm not tyring to be pro- German or a$$ kisser to Dieter, I'm just wondering if the martial arts and the FMA is as prevelent over there (Europe) as it is here.  And if it isn't and the person has to really go out of their way to find it or train in it.  Than that might weed out the less than serious folks.  And if the folks take it real serious than they would have no problem seeing the value of their training and the training opportunites that come their way.  

So much for a short post  
Mark


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## Cebu West (Jul 18, 2003)

Hello Dieter
When you first put up this thread I wrote this down but didn't have time to get it on line until now, so some of my ideas are reflected in the statements of others on this thread.

What you ask is difficult without crossing the lines you said you were not interested in.

My name is Sal and my school, Cebu West is with the WMAA. I am also on their Advisory Board. I have hosted seminars, an instructor camp and will be CO-hosting another three day camp in October, so I am not looking at your questions as an outsider to running events. I am associated with the WMAA but speak only for myself on these issues.

To begin with, not even the Professor drew large numbers when he taught at camps in the US. Good numbers but not large. There are also camps and seminars going on all the time over here by one group or another so there is no one Big event that people feel they have to attend.

There are many of us who do Modern Arnis as a primary art, but many use it as an add on art. You know, the art within your art.

The economy and the cost of attending a camp outside your area is considerable and people have to choose where they will go.

Families play a big part in this also. Not many people can indulge themselves while leaving the wife and kids at home. My wife and kids already think I'm obsessed with Modern Arnis as it is. I would do much more than I do now, but I assume a divorce would go along with it. They already put up with a lot so I pick and choose my time away from them for my personal gratification.

Fierce loyalty to your own organization.
Tim, Chad and Myself are reaching out to other at our October camp by bringing in instructors that span Modern Arnis in some form. Past and present. We have also done this at other camps we have had. We are trying but that is not the case with everyone. There are too many closed groups as far as instructors that are offered at events.

Datu Kelly's event was more of a regional event and I don't believe they were going for a nationally attended crowd as was the Symposium.

The Symposium
a. Wrong timing - Too soon after the Professor's passing, 4 or 5 years would have been better.

b. Wrong sales pitch  -  this was billed as a put up or shut up event from the start. Efforts were made to retract this statement but the damage was done and it was doomed from the start.

c. Wrong host  -  DR Barber did not have the right personality to deal with the different groups. His way or no way. No room for compromise. I personally believe this is a reason that many did not attend. An event like this should have done good numbers.

d. Location should have been more central to both coasts. I think that is one of the reasons that Datu Kelly did not attend.

Recent events at the symposium have given us a black eye, but they have also helped us by exposing those who seek to undermine the healing process that we are in the midst of.
True intentions will surface and when those who would harm our reputation are gone we will  be stronger and more united.

Do I have all the answers? Not by a long shot, but I am trying to reach out to others and do my part to carry Modern Arnis into the future with pride. I know that in the WMAA we are open to all ideas that will keep Modern Arnis alive and well.

This my be too personal of a response but I can't talk about the art that I love in an antiseptic way. Only from what I know and feel.

Sal Todaro (Cebu West)


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2003)

First, let me say I am glad that the turn out for Datu Worden and MARPIO was good.

Modern Arnis is North America has always been fragmented, it stemmed from GM R Presas himself. He never had a formal organization(s) or such. He was the reason people turned out. His talent, his charisma and our respect, for him,  were the main reasons for those I know well.


Time heals most wounds. Time is needed in this case.


A more complete gathering of the seniors would be nice, yet will have to be out a few years. It was nice to see those seniors there in Buffalo, that I did get a chance to see.


I also think part of our problems stems for us being all INDIVIDUALS. A good friend of mine was talking to me recently and he said the logic may times has no place in areas where emotions reign. Not an exact quote, yet this is what I took from it.

As Individuals, and beings of emotions some of us do things differently, which leads to differeces. Some can handle this others have a problem with it. I think the time will come when things will much better. They never will be as they were, nor as we dreamed frmo the past of for the future. 

My Opinion, not meant negatively at all.

:asian:


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 19, 2003)

I agree with what you said Rich. The Professor was the reason for the fragmented organization of Modern Arnis, and at the same time he was the glue that held it all together. His passing left a huge vacuum, especially given the fact that before his illness he had no real  organization or chain of command in place. He had so many "top students" that seemed to be "passed over" in the apparent rush to organize things before his passing. 

I think that his family (Remy Jr., Demitrio and MaryAnn) is working diligently to re-unify the art, but this will take time and no small amount of effort. Their efforts seem to be taking a strong hold in the Pacific Northwest, and slowly but surely they're methodically making the rounds to other areas of the country. I wish them great success.

Cost and timing has always been an issue for my decisions to addend/not attend a seminar. I have to pick and choose carefully where and when I go. My schedule isn't always compatible with the things that I want to do. Anybody whose spent some time in service of their country can relate, I'm sure.

At the time I was surprised to see the lack of support from the WMAA since Tim has so many affiliated schools relatively close by, but given the conflicts between him and Dr. Barber I see why. It's unfortunate. 

It would be great to eventually see all of the splinter groups at least  loosely affiliated under one roof.  Deiter, you had a great idea and I think that it's possible once we all put out egos down and accept that we are not the stars that we think we are. We are all the same, and we all put our pants on the same way regardless of rank and/or title. 

There are alot of things plaguing the art at the moment. Many of which are conceit, jeolousy, greed and fear. Everybody wants to be number one. Nobody wants to do something for nothing (money talks, BS walks). Nobody wants to lose the status that Remy bestowed upon them. Everybody is afraid of looking like they don't have the whole art.  These are all character flaws of individuals. I don't have any one person in mind here, but this is it in a nutshell. These are the things that keep us from getting together and really promting the art as it should be done.

Tim Kashino


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## Dieter (Jul 19, 2003)

Thanks everybody

 for the anwers fo far. It gave me a much better insight in different reasons. Please let your contributions coming. This is is also what I hoped for. Not a war on different people but a serious discussion on the situatiuon.
This awarness might help, to make things better a next time, if there will be a next time.  


Tha boar man, Mark wrote


> In the past at a IMAF camp I had the pleasure of meeting Gabbi from Germany and I think a couple of her students, this time I got to meet Dieter and his student. From what I remember of this small selection of people was that they were very precise and very good, in technique, form, knowledge etc. etc.
> 
> I generally don't see that of the students here in the states, myself included. Maybe it's because many of the students here don't value what they are being taught because it is plentiful and they don't value what they are receiving. Going to see the source or the head of a system doesn't mean anything to them.
> 
> I'm not tyring to be pro- German or a$$ kisser to Dieter, I'm just wondering if the martial arts and the FMA is as prevelent over there (Europe) as it is here.



I do not feel a$$ kissed first of all.
But you can imagine, when I bring a student over (Michael is with me since 10 years anfd going for Lakan Tatlo in September (Hey Dan, thats 3rd Dan  )
I try not to bring somebody who doesn´t know what he is doing. Like the Professor did not bring some beginners to Germany to accompany him when he was there.

The second part of the story might be, that we from the DAV (German Arnis Associaticon) try not to do the "art within your are" so much.  We try to teach Modern Arnis as a stand alone art. With Modern Arnis uniform, written curriculum, real organisation, etc. That leads to the fact, that our Modern Arnis members practice Modern Arnis between 1,5 hour and 5 hours a week. 

As far as I understand, some of the Modern Arnis Players in the US do their XXX styles and then practice some 20 minutes a week Modern Arnis. 
I know that this is not true for everybody, but I belive for the mayority of the Modern Arnis practitioners, that went to Remys seminars.  

For the "art within your art" was very successfull for Remy to get many people involved into Miodern Arnis, I belive that it also kept many people away from serious practice, because they might have thought: "Why shpould I practice Modern Arnis so much, it is in my art anyway already".

I am only guessing, but it comes from many talks I had with americans. They also said, that there are much more adults involved into the martial arts here in Europe than in the US.

This is in no way ment to insult any american Modern Arnis player. I am just trying to give an explanation on a question that was asked and a situation that I have also observed. So please don´t feel insulted, because I also saw many great martial artists and Modern Arnis players on the symposium.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Cebu West (Jul 19, 2003)

Most martial art schools here in the US are funded by the kids programs. If you look into most schools there are very few adults and the ones that are there don't last long. There is always some reason they can't train on a regular basis. Everyone in the US is in express mode with a million things going on at the same time. Only the serious students survive. I would think that in Europe folks are a little more laid back. When people here earn legitimate black belts they have put in the time and have sacrificed many other things in exchange. The dedicated ones do stand out in the crowd though.
As long as we are in this frantic pace to work, pay bills, squeeze in some family time and train things here will remain the same.

SAL


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## David Hoffman (Jul 19, 2003)

Hello Datu Dieter,

There is one fundamental difference between the way martial arts are presented in the US and in Germany. In the US, the overwhelming majority of schools are privately owned for profit enterprises. This means the schools have a high rent to pay and must charge a high monthly fee to make a profit. Most American are only too happy to pay their childrens way, but teens and young adults, must pay their own way. As a result, the bread and butter for the US schools are these children. The teens and young adults who are the target group for Arnis often can not afford the $60+ a month for tuition. Furthermore, in the US, anyone can open a school and call themselves instructor. This leads to diversity, but it also leads to a great variation in competence and structure.

In Germany, the situation is very different, but please correct me if I am mistaken.
In Germany an instructor must prove his qualification by membership in an approved national organization. This is true also in the UK. The instructor then may receive the necessary approval and insurance necessary to legally conduct a class. While this limits diversity it also promotes good basic standards of skill and safety, and larger organizations tend to have more standardized training. Very importantly, in Germany, an approved instructor also can use one of the many training spaces at government owned gyms and community centers. Thus the rent is very cheep so the tuition is also very affordable. Schools in Germany were more like clubs as a result. My impression was that most students paid a low membership fee that was a fraction of what a US student would pay. Instructors would receive a small fee from the parent organization and taught as a hobby, not the primary source of income. This is an ideal climate for an art/sport to flourish among teens and young adults.

Another factor is a cultural difference. When I was at your seminar in Frankfort, I was impressed by the fact that absolutely everyone wore a uniform specific to their group. This made for a very impressive looking group, like a military parade. This and the large turnout was why Professor chose a photo of this event for his revised, and as yet unreleased, Escrima book. It would seem possible that this trend toward regimentation would extend to techniques as well, thus one would expect to find a more uniform curriculum as well.

In the US we have mostly individual, commercial schools. Americans like to dress as they please as well. This, and the reality that the US is made up of many regions, has led to the great diversity of the art in America. Modern Arnis has thrived around several main hubs, New England, Michigan, Chicago and Portland, being the main hubs, and Buffalo, Texas, Philadelphia/MD/NJ, Ohio and Florida being among the secondary. Very few Modern Arnis players, in fact, only a handful, ever traveled beyond their region on any regular basis. This led to great regional diversity in terms of how the art was presented and practiced, ie: more like Kenpo, more like Kung Fu, stand alone, etc. as well as different standards for ranking. For this reason I would often meet a Lakan Tatlo in one region who was equivalent to a Lakan Isa in another. This variation also applied country to country. However, each was ranked appropriately for their own region or country.


Considering all these factors; lower available adult student base, regional variation and large geographical distance, one can understand why we have such diversity and variation in the US. While you had about 100 people at the Frankfort seminar, the vast majority of them were from two strictly regimented groups. At a typical US seminar, of the 40-60 people in attendance, one would expect to see 6 or more individual groups and a large number of independents. It would be unusual to see more than a few people in uniform and even those would be different.

When Professor was here to unite us, we saw competing groups come together to train. This still occurs to a lesser extent in the US. I would be interested to find out if the DAV and IMAF Germany still meet at any seminars. I sensed the same competitive nature between groups in Germany as I saw throughout the US, the US just had a larger number of small groups while Germany had two large, tightly regimented groups.


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## Rocky (Jul 19, 2003)

Hello Deiter, good to here you posting.


So you wanna know what happend to Modern Arnis? I can name that tune in 2 words.


"Remy Presas"


Rocky


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## David Hoffman (Jul 19, 2003)

I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective. I am very happy to see Datu Dieter coming across the big puddle to share with us. I am planning to host Dieter for a seminar in New England myself. I strongly encourage those who promote seminars to invite Dieter to come teach in their region, you will be richly rewarded with his high caliber of instruction! The same is true of our other senior Modern Arnis instructor, Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff, she has taught at several IMAF camps since Professors passing, and her contribution was excellent! I hope people look beyond xenophobia and affiliation and take advantage of these two excellent German Modern Arnis instructors, who are so generous with their time and knowledge


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Hello Deiter, good to here you posting.
> 
> 
> ...




True that, Rock.


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by David Hoffman _
> *I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective. *



You're right on the money there David.  Everyone benefits from diversity. I spent seven years in Germany and made some trips to the PI, and those experiences were very rewarding. THe instructors I have trained with over the last 15 years were from many different systems and backgrounds. I came away from those experiences all the richer.

I think we should all seize any opportunity to train outside of our box. Varying your experiences enriches your training. You can see how others do it and relate it back to your art, or even add something to your repertoire. There's nothing new under the sun, but there is more than one way of doing things.

 I think that the more diverse someone's background in the martial arts is, the less likely they are to get caught up in the "hero worship" that many students fall into. People in the worshipping phase are great, loyal students, but more often than not their minds are not working. Their minds are closed to everything that doesn't come from their "hero's" mouth. Once a person grows out of that pahse his eyes are open and he's ready to REALLY develop. That's what the martial arts are really about in my book; personal expression and development.

Tim Kashino


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## Dieter (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi David,

thanks for your post about Germany.
You are partly right and partly wrong there.



> Furthermore, in the US, anyone can open a school and call themselves instructor. This leads to diversity, but it also leads to a great variation in competence and structure.



Everybody can do that in Germany too.



> In Germany, the situation is very different, but please correct me if I am mistaken. In Germany an instructor must prove his qualification by membership in an approved national  organization.



I have to correct you there, it is not correct.

First of all, everybody who likes han open a commercial school if he wants. No qualification required. 
Everybody can open a club, as long as the legal aspects are correct and the statues of the club go along with the regulations set by the local court. There are a few things you have to obey, but it is easy and we have virtually millions of clubs abot almost everything. Also no qualification needed. Only when you want to get paied by the local authorities to teach in your club, then you have to show a valid instructors license from an acknowledged association. No FMA association is reckognized by the german authorities, beacuse the standards for that are very high (at least 20000 memberos or so) and once you are in, you have the right to get a part of the money put into sports from the german goverment. That also means, all the associations that are in try to prohibit new ones coming in, because then their share of the money is getting smaller.
Anyway, cou can make a license with the local authorities for general sports. Then you get a little paied for the teaching and it is easier tpo get the public gymnasiums for teaching.



> Very importantly, in Germany, an approved instructor also can use one of the many training spaces at government owned gyms and community centers. Thus the rent is very cheep so the tuition is also very affordable. Schools in Germany were more like clubs as a result. My impression was that most students paid a low membership fee that was a fraction of what a US student would pay. Instructors would receive a small fee from the parent organization and taught as a hobby, not the primary source of income. This is an ideal climate for an art/sport to flourish among teens and young adults.



In general this is right, exept what I wrote above. In the DAV most of the students are members of cheap clubs, but we also have schools that teach Modern Arnis. In that case, the same facts (high rent, higher charges, making ift for living) apply than in the US.



> Another factor is a cultural difference. When I was at your seminar in Frankfort, I was impressed by the fact that absolutely everyone wore a uniform specific to their group. This made for a very impressive looking group, like a military parade. This and the large turnout was why Professor chose a photo of this event for his revised, and as yet unreleased, Escrima book. It would seem possible that this trend toward regimentation would extend to techniques as well, thus one would expect to find a more uniform curriculum as well.



Maybe, with the exeption of the military. As I agree that it is nice for different reasons, that the people wear uniforms, I have to disagree with the military, because I associate with this standing in line and doing all the same (like in Shotokan Karate), which is not the way we teach here. We use the same teaching method of the Professor, which is relaxed and individual. With the rest I think I can agree.


> In the US we have mostly individual, commercial schools. Americans like to dress as they please as well. This, and the reality that the US is made up of many regions, has led to the great diversity of the art in America.


Well, yes and no. As much as I can understand that point, as much I see that almost all other martial arts like Karate, Kempo, Taekwon Do etc manage, that a uniform is worn, even in the US. I cannot imagine people practise Taekwon Do for example in Jeans and T-shirt.
But I understand, that this was not so important for the Professor (for him it was more important that they came and trained and not what they wore I think.) And he also sometimes taught in very casual clothing. And, as good students, you of course follow the example set by the master. 
And my backgroud is more filipino. Brocka, the Master I started with wore Uniform, Ernesto always wore uniform and insisted that we did and with my recent vidsit to the Philippines, even in private class, only 1:1 me and the Master/Grandmaster with nobody watching, ALL of them wore always FULL uniform, including belt and jacket. And of course as good students you follow the example ... see above  
So I see the unifom also as an historical thing, how the art evolved in the different countries.


> Considering all these factors; lower available adult student base, regional variation and large geographical distance, one can understand why we have such diversity and variation in the US. While you had about 100 people at the Frankfort seminar, the vast majority of them were from two strictly regimented groups. At a typical US seminar, of the 40-60 people in attendance, one would expect to see 6 or more individual groups and a large number of independents. It would be unusual to see more than a few people in uniform and even those would be different.


Agreed.


> When Professor was here to unite us, we saw competing groups come together to train. This still occurs to a lesser extent in the US. I would be interested to find out if the DAV and IMAF Germany still meet at any seminars. I sensed the same competitive nature between groups in Germany as I saw throughout the US, the US just had a larger number of small groups while Germany had two large, tightly regimented groups.


OK, I understand that. But, first of all, the IMAF Germany does not appear anywhere. The website has not been updated since before the Professors sickness (Summer 2000), no advertising for seminars, no reviews, nothing I even don´t know if it is still existing. This is no bald talk, it is a fact.

And as we would be open for them to participate in our seminars, they don´t come and mix. We cannot paritcipate, because the either don´t have seminars or they are not open to the public.

But I do understand (also before your contribution) the problematic of competition and people not liking or even respecting each other. 

But with my question I wanted to come closer to the situationof Modern Arnis inthe US and this is happening. With every mail I undersand better. Keep them coming.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2003)

I have read with great interest the many well written post on here about What happend to Modern Arnis. And as when Remy was alive I see the same old Texas two stepping around the issue.

 Bram pretty much hit it on the head that in the U.S. the arts are taught in schools that have an over head to meet and must make certain accomedations. But that is only a small part of the problem.

What most of the Remy worshippers don't want to here is that Modern Arnis is like a business and when a business goes wrong and its not do to the economy you must look at the top down!!!!

Remy Presas one of the finest Martial Artist to walk the earth ( and I really mean that) but he was a horrible businessman, a user, and quite often a doulbe talker, All of which I have said straight to his face some 6 or 7 years ago. I loved the man like a second father, and I trained directly under him my intire Modern Arnis carreer, which start when I was about 11 years old in or around 1976. Remy had a nack for telling people what they wanted to here. If you had him in for a seminar at your school he may very well tell everyone that you were his top guy or his protege' or what ever, next weekend at a school 100 miles or 1500 miles away he would tell someone else the same thing. If a person had a lot of students and could bring him in more often for seminars and more money he did what he had to, to keep it rolling. I told him at the last big fight we had in the car in front of GM Buot's house that if anything should happen to him his art would be left a mess. For Christ sakes if you just take a look at some of the Masters out their and really dig into how much actual one on one training they had with Remy its discussting, and if they had any honor some of  them wouldn't even accept their rank!!!  It takes thousands of hours and years of training in most arts to get a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, yet there are masters in Modern Arnis, that have maybe 20 or 30 seminars a hand full of summer camps and maybe what would amount to a few weeks of actuall one on one training with professor, and yet in a 6 or 7 year periodd they out rank me ( a 5th degree blackbelt) and I  lived with Remy for 3 to 6 months out of the year back in the 80s, for several years, he had his own bed room at my parents house, hell he and my father would train for a couple hours every morning. In 1982/3 he and I quit doing just about all Modern Arnis and just trained in Moncol & Maranga's un-grouped Balintawak. He use to tell my father and Gm Buot that training with me brought back good memories of his childhood. Yet I am out of the loop for a few years because I confronted him about the ******** of just telling people what they wanted to here, and bam!! within a few years there are all these Modern Arnis masters floating around. And if I have said this once I have said it a hundred times, these are masters who have vertually no fundimental understanding of Crossada De mano, Mocal or Maranga's Balintawak, or Palis Palis Silat all of which are not just techniques but complete arts that make up the fundimentals of Modern Arnis.  Now that Professor is gone people are only doing what he told them to do. The state of Modern Arnis rest solely on his shoulders.

 Personally I see a couple of guys that are doing their very best to make a good strong Modern Arnis group, and I wish them all the luck in the World, hey if Take ones Dough can have umpteen orginazations why can't Modern Arnis.

 I would suggest that anyone interested in Modern Arnis find an organization that they are comfortable with and stay with it, don't worry what everyone else is doing , don't let the ghost's of  Remy's million and one indissisions haunt you. Give praise to the Man for the Martial artist that he was, but see him for the flawed man that he and all of us are.

Rocky


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## David Hoffman (Jul 20, 2003)

[





> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *I have read with great interest the many well written post on here about What happend to Modern Arnis. And as when Remy was alive I see the same old Texas two stepping around the issue.
> 
> What most of the Remy worshippers don't want to here is that Modern Arnis is like a business and when a business goes wrong and its not do to the economy you must look at the top down!!!!*


*

Your perception that the "business has gone wrong" in not accurate. Modern Arnis continues to flourish. The regular IMAF seminars have strong attendance as do the seminars conducted by the various independent groups. Modern Arnis remains the most popular FMA. What is wrong is the squabbling among of a few malcontents, not the "business."





			Remy Presas one of the finest Martial Artist to walk the earth ( and I really mean that) but he was a horrible businessman, a user, and quite often a doulbe talker,
		
Click to expand...


That is slander Rocky. Perhaps it is why you were estranged for most of the last 20 years? Just because you made a criticism doesn't make it accurate. Now that Professor is no here to answer, it is very bad form. In fact, Professor was an excellent businessman, he built this whole seminar business from nothing and was the highest paid instructor and most popular seminar instructor that I know of. A user? Double talker? That is an insult Rocky and your opinion based upon your subjective view! If your father passed away you would not be pleased if one of his detractors took to slandering him on a public forum. Please stop!





			I told him at the last big fight we had in the car in front of GM Buot's house
		
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That you had a falling out with Professor long ago and went your own way is your business. It is bad form for you to continue the "big fight" now that he has passed away.





			Masters out their and really dig into how much actual one on one training they had with Remy its discussting, and if they had any honor some of  them wouldn't even accept their rank!!!
		
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What masters are you slandering here? As you were not present for most of the last 15 years how do you know how others where trained? Your posts always suggest that you alone were properly trained and more qualified than all the pretenders. You went your own way, were alienated from Professor for most of your adult life and never achieved high rank. Get over it! You have other accomplishments in other arts, you dont need to come back to Modern Arnis to prove yourself by putting everyone else, including Professor, down!




			It takes thousands of hours and years of training in most arts to get a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, yet there are masters in Modern Arnis, that have maybe 20 or 30 seminars a hand full of summer camps and maybe what would amount to a few weeks of actuall one on one training with professor, and yet in a 6 or 7 year periodd they out rank me ( a 5th degree blackbelt)
		
Click to expand...


If you had continued with your training you too would have advanced in rank. Instead, your anger and frustration blocked you.




			out of the loop for a few years because I confronted him about the ******** of just telling people what they wanted to here, and bam!! within a few years there are all these Modern Arnis masters floating around.
		
Click to expand...


You were out of the loop for more than a few years Rocky. If Professor was as free with ranking as you suggest than why did you not receive it? Because, as you say, you were out of the loop and confrontational!




			And if I have said this once I have said it a hundred times, these are masters who have vertually no fundimental understanding of Crossada De mano, Mocal or Maranga's Balintawak, or Palis Palis Silat all of which are not just techniques but complete arts that make up the fundimentals of Modern Arnis.  Now that Professor is gone people are only doing what he told them to do. The state of Modern Arnis rest solely on his shoulders.
		
Click to expand...


Yes you have said this a hundred times. Apparently you believe that you alone are qualified to teach. Good for you. Would you be happy if everyone renounced their rank and instructor titles and came to study in your original, true, real, honest school? If you are so qualified than why not take up the slack and teach 2 seminars a week all over the world like Professor did? "The louder he spoke of his honour the faster we counted our spoons."






			don't let the ghost's of  Remy's million and one indissisions haunt you. ...but see him for the flawed man that he and all of us are

Rocky
		
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*
Are those indecisions Professor not recognising your greatness and endorsing you? You have said so in the past. Flawed? No one is perfect Rocky, not even you! But it is improper to rehash the same tired old complaints from a decade ago when the person you opposed is no longer here to defend himself! You are human and must be flawed also, yet I only see you post about Professor's flaws, not your own! Because you unfairly do so, I am pointing out a flaw or two, the difference is you are alive to respond to my criticism, Professor is not. 

Being that you and I are friends from "back in the day" and were together at the first training camp in West Virginia and you know I have nothing against you. I hope you can accept my words as a valid criticism and not a personal attack. It just hurts me to see Professor's name dragged through the mud when he is not here to defend himself. All the more so as we are in the month before the second year anniversary of his passing. May I respectfully request that you put aside your old vendettas and complaints and not use this forum to bash Professor?


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## Dieter (Jul 20, 2003)

David Hoffman wrote:


> I hope that more people will take the time to travel to other regions and countries. They will greatly benefit from the diversity! Seeing how something is done in another country or region gives valuable perspective. I am very happy to see Datu Dieter coming across the big puddle to share with us. I am planning to host Dieter for a seminar in New England myself. I strongly encourage those who promote seminars to invite Dieter to come teach in their region, you will be richly rewarded with his high caliber of instruction! The same is true of our other senior Modern Arnis instructor, Master of Tapi-Tapi Gaby Roloff, she has taught at several IMAF camps since Professors passing, and her contribution was excellent! I hope people look beyond xenophobia and affiliation and take advantage of these two excellent German Modern Arnis instructors, who are so generous with their time and knowledge



Hi David,

I look forward to a seminar or camp, possibly hosted or organized by you.
As soon as we have a possible date, and anybody would like to have also a seminar with me, please let me know, we could try to arrange it all together, so that the cost of the intercontinental flight could be shared.
I know there is some interest in Texas and maybe even in the NY area. Anyway, David, as soon as you have a date we can plan about, please let me know. I am more that willing to share my version of Modern Arnis with the american students. I have had the pleasure of teaching in the US already in Whichita, Tacoma, Hartford, Philidelphia, Houston and Buffalo, and so far I think, everybdy enjoyed it, to get a little other, the "german" aspect of Modern Arnis. 

Looking forward how this may develop.


Best regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2003)

First off Dave I New that my post would , bring out the worshippers.


> That is slander Rocky. Perhaps it is why you were estranged for most of the last 20 years? Just because you made a criticism doesn't make it accurate. Now that Professor is no here to answer, it is very bad form



 Your definition of slander must mean something diferent than mine. Dave you ever here the famous phrase " Don't entertain them" it was one of Remy's favorite. I am not going to air out every little detail, but my critisism not being accurate???? You mean Remy was a sucessfull business man, WOW!!! You must think Mohomad Ali was a great businessman too!!! Just because Remy made money and was the highest paid seminar man does not make him a sucessfull businessman. Again re-read my post, he was the master of telling people what they wanted to hear!!! Especially if they had lots of students!!! Making money is one thing keeping it and taking care of your comitments with it are another.

  As far as not being involved with Remy for 20 years!!! Who was that  I was free sparring with at his Michigan camp 6 or 7 years ago???? In fact one of his New Master we'll call him Charlie Bandaid, followed me around for half the day because he had never seen Remy completetly free spar before ( this means no single sinwalli or pattern of any kind) of course by the end of the day Remy told him not to "Entertain Me" so the guy who lives a few miles from me never camoe to train and is still stagnant in his stick work. Tim Hatman was there, I don't know how much of thestory he knows but he saw us sparr and he saw this guy following me around. After lunch Remy talked to the guy and they kept looking at me, and it was my top student Hal Edwards, who look over pointed them out and said Rocky how much you wanna bet Remy is tellin ghim not to " Entertain You"

  Buffalo New York 1980's Dave go ask the players from back them what Remy had done to them!!!! Luckly know it seems Tim Hartman, and his group and Jerome Barber and his group ( throught better organization and business practices) seem to be fixing things their. Flint Michigan 1980's, Jeff Fields, Robert Demott, Jeff Owens, Jim Power, Jim Birchfield all promised to be the head honcho in that area to make for a better working enviroment for Modern Arnis, I'll give you 3 guess's David who made that promise to each of them. The samething happend in Chicago, here in Detroit, Europe Canada and god knows where else. 



> That you had a falling out with Professor long ago and went your own way is your business. It is bad form for you to continue the "big fight" now that he has passed away.



  What big fight again if you read my post you are doing exactically what I said the worshippers would do!!! Why don't you point out that I said that I still love the man, as I do my father, I give praise to him for much of my ability. But that doesn't mean that you just turn a blind eye to other things he was my teacher and my superior in Martial Arts, but thats it, he  was just a man. And ask me anything you want about my father Dave and I will tell you the truth, most of it good just like Remy but some will be bad, but thats the way it is, see, I live in a little place called reality.



> What masters are you slandering here? As you were not present for most of the last 15 years how do you know how others where trained? Your posts always suggest that you alone were properly trained and more qualified than all the pretenders. You went your



 You really like to throw the slander word around, not digging for a little gold are you David :rofl: 

Again you read what you want pick and choose and complain, you are smart enough and talanted enough at least as far as I can remember to know who and what I am talking about.

  Me alone the only one NOPE sorry don't feel that way all though I along with others were promissed to be his sucessors, " oh damn you don't want to here that do you"  No their are a lot of good people, have I ever said anything about your, ability??? No Master Anderson warned me a while back " Rocky if you say anything other than favorable things about Remy some of his worshippers will have fits"  He new Remy for as long as many and he to has seen some of the wacky things he did.  You know Dave and I will admit I have know way to prove. But about 8 years ago Remy and I were talking on the phone and I told him Remy you are getting crazy with some of this rank that you are giveing out. His resome was Oh Rocky just don't entertain that it means nothing. So I asked him well Remy if it means nothing that what is my rank now??? His exact words were "Rocky you are what ever you want to be" Now again I can't prove it but it happened, is this part of that great business personality?




> you had continued with your training you too would have advanced in rank. Instead, your anger and frustration blocked you.



What anger ****!!! Do have to go to an anger management class?? God I hope not. Lets see I went on to train in the roots of Modern Arnis to see the path that Remy took and experience as much of it as I could,  in a modern day setting. And guess what David, I didn't SEEEEE annyyyyyone else there?????? 





> Are those indecisions Professor not recognising your greatness and endorsing you? You have said so in the past. Flawed? No one is perfect Rocky, not even you! But it is improper to rehash the same tired old complaints from a decade ago when the person you opposed is no longer here to defend himself! You are human and must be flawed also, yet I only see you post about Professor's flaws, not your own! Because you unfairly do so, I am pointing out a flaw or two, the difference is you are alive to respond to my criticism, Professor is not



 Now it is you that is attacking me because I spoke about the things Remy did that hurt his art and left it with so many people bickering and arguing. Showl me once where I said I great, I have had a few girls tell me that  But I am just a simple Eskrimador, no fancy tiltles or any such thing, all I can do is prove thought my sticks, my worth which I have always been willing to do, because I am confident and thankfull of the skills that Remy helped me develope.



> Being that you and I are friends from "back in the day" and were together at the first training camp in West Virginia and you know I have nothing against you. I hope you can accept my words as a valid criticism and not a personal attack. It just hurts me to see Professor's name dragged through the mud when he is not here to defend himself. All the more so as we are in the month before the second year anniversary of his passing. May I respectfully request that you put aside your old vendettas and complaints and not use this forum to bash Professor?



Yes and I have no problem with you hope you contine to spead Professors art. And I do not bash Remys name like you are trying to say I am simply giving an explination of why Modern Arnis is so messed up, again it starts from the top!!!

 I have said this many times I am not sure Remy really intentially hurt poeple or screwed things up between people, he just never wanted to be negative towards people so he TOLD THEM WHAT THEY WANTED TO HERE, in fact that might have been his biggest flaw, he didn't wanted to make everyone happy and he tried. unfortuately in doing so he doulbel talked alot and burned many a people.

 However none of this takes away from him being one of the Greeatest Eskrimadors ever. In fact the one thing that I really cherish about Remy is when it came to Eskrima he never had any out landish stories about being undefeated, and never being hit, or any one of a number of strange rituals that many old Eskrimadors try to pass off. Nor did he claim to have kill so many men. Personally I find that very refreshing in Martial arts.

Rocky


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2003)

Next time you are in this area let me know. We could probably throw something together for you.


Rocky


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## Emptyglass (Jul 20, 2003)

Rocky:

As PG Tom Bolden likes to say: "Skill is Rank." In reading through your post and my own experiences with the Professor in the late 80's and 90's I think you have hit the nails right on the heads.



> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *"Rocky you are what ever you want to be" *



I believe you and I only met in person a few times (maybe 2, once at Powerhuouse Gym in Orchard Park, NY for certain) but I do remember that you definitely had the skill to go along with your level of expertise when we met.

I'm rightfully proud of my accomplishment in the Modern Arnis system while Remy was alive and the efforts I feel I honestly made to attain it. However, in today's world of multiple, multiple Lakan Apats-Pito and above who cares? I've continued to grow, learn and explore the Filipino Martial Arts and while I'll always credit my education in Modern Arnis as taught to me by Dr. Jerome Barber as my base, the addition of techniques, skills and movements from other styles have also influenced my own personal development (Billy Bryant's Oliverez Pangasinan Escrima, Punong-Guro Tom Bolden's Panci-Panci Escrima, Kapatid Bobby Ladra's Kalidrada Escrima, GM Bobby Taboada's Balintawak are examples). Skill demonstrates what you know and what you don't and anyone who wants to argue otherwise is hiding something in my opinion.

In any case, you don't need affirmation from a practicioner such as myself (that's right folks, I've been involved with learning and then learning and teaching Modern Arnis and the Filipino Martial Arts since my start in the mid-eighties at John Bryant's school in Amherst, NY, I train with Guro Ladra  3-4 hours a day, 4 days a week and I still don't feel comfortable calling myself more than that) but I do share your opinons on how things are today with many students and instructors of Modern Arnis as well as the manner that the Professor conducted his business. 

The opinions above are my own so take them up with me. 

Maraming Salamat Po,

Richard Curren


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## Bob (Jul 20, 2003)

Taken from the WMAC forum: 



> "We all know Professor was not perfect, most of accept it and live with it. We have issues with each other and in time will work through our differences or move past giving a rat's ***....
> 
> It is very evident that Rocky needs some attention and that he felt wronged by Professor for not recognizing him. For the most part I have always heard good things about Rockys skill level and his dedication to the art. It is just sad that he feels the need to air his unwashed laundry in public,,, the stench and brown streaks surely would close a Chinese Laundromat . Although he talks of his personal arguments with Remy, I really doubt if he would dare speak like this in his presence, say across the gym in an open discussion. If he says differently he is full of crap!
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2003)

As I have said in the past, the worshippers would come out of the wood work, someone please forward this to the Great Datu Worden.

 First Kelly where were you when Remy was living at my parents house off and on for all those years. 

Secondly every single thing I said here, I said to Remy, GM Buot knows this to be true. In fact he tried on numerous accasions to patch things up between us. Because he knew that we were much closer than, just student Master, Remy use to come watch me play football as a kid. GM Buot has said numerous times when talking to Remy that the old man was hurt ( as was and still am I ) because of our relationship, not because I was some sniviling *** kisser looking for something, but because we really cared about each other, maybe this is hard for you to understand!!!! I love Remy for Remy not because of what he could do for me.

 As I stated to David, I will ansewer any question, even about my own father, I will tell you the way it was good or bad, if that shatters your little world well then cry me a river.

  Next you abviously have some problem with GM Buot too!!!! Tell me where I make claims to be the main man in Balintawak, that position is filled by Grand Master Buot, I am mearly the chief instructor at my school for Balintawak, get your facts straight. As far as Cuentada De mano, when you have as much actual training as me in both Modern Arnis and Balintawak with Remy ( One on One not seminar stuff) and with  Gm Tanconio and Gm Buot who helped me name the art and supports me, then I will worry about your opinion, tell then, just keep living in your own world.

  And once again Kelly read all my post not just what bruises your fanatic views of Remy.

 Like I said I always praise Remy for what he gave me, as should we all. I am not airing  any dirty laundry, Dieter asked a simple question "Why is Modern Arnis in the state it is" Since you are the new all knowing oricle of wisdom Kelly, please you tell us why things are the way they are, know and in the past, if you have a better explination, my hat is off to you!!!! So there it is Kelly please enlighten us, instead of attacking someone that, offered his opinion as to why things are the way they are, come give us some wisdom!!!

 P.S you know what is really amazing, a few months ago I was talking to Master Anderson via E-mail and told him that I thought you were one of the few old timers that were really on the up and up, and that along with him and Tim and Jim P. and a few others I thought eventually you guy would be the ones that evetually clean everything up.

Guess I over estimated you??

P.s as far as accomplisments, where were you when Remy was going  to Amsterdam to watch, me fight. Where were you when I was the only Guy representing Modern Arnis at some of the Pekiti Tersia fights, where Kelly boy. And please don't insult Gm Buot by making false statements about Balintawak. I see Master Anderson flying all the way out here to learn some of the Modern Arnis roots, where are you???? Of course you probably think you know what he has to offer. And if you wanna play the he said they said game, years ago when I asked Remy about you back when you, I  beleave only had  a few years training in, he basically told me " Not to Entertain you"

Your pissant friend who was teaching Modern Arnis in Europe at 17 while you were still playing with your short stick. God don't you feel bad that at 17 I had done more in martial arts then you did at age what 30, god if I was you I think I 'd chew on the end of a gun.

Nothing but love Kelly nothing but love

Rocky

1-313-729-7016


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## Rocky (Jul 20, 2003)

Sorry if I don't place a face with your name but thanks for the post.



> As PG Tom Bolden likes to say: "Skill is Rank." In reading through your post and my own experiences with the Professor in the late 80's and 90's I think you have hit the nails right on the heads.



PG Bolden is right on, I like his thinking, I don't know if we ever crossed pathes, but I here good things about him.

  People see things through rosed color glasses sometimes, they don't know how to seperate truth from a fantacy idea of martial arts. I personally don't think I am slamming anyone, hell I am honest about my feelings, because they are real, I personally wouldn't have given a rats *** if Remy would have quit teaching me when I was 18 or 19, as long as we would have stayed like family, I could care less about losing a martial arts instructor, losing Remy was like losing a very close uncle. Gm Buot could see this in both of us he Remy and Hal Edwards had breakfast once and Remy got very emotional about out situation, and even with Gm Buot talking to Remy and Hal talking to me, we are both bull headed. Now I have to live with it. But I know I will see him again. And I know he and my pops are probably looking down wondering what the next stupid thing is I will do 

 So keep swing it sounds like you are training with some good people.

Rocky


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 20, 2003)

It seems that your straight talk has opened a huge can of worms, Rock. 

The Professor often seemed to try to surround himself with "worshippers" at the expence of skilled, hard training students. If he hadn't done that Modern Arnis would not have grow into what it is today. (I realize the duality of this statement)

I remember Duane Ranieri at the 1988 MSU Camp saying something to the effect that the Professor had two kinds of students; bona fide students and groupies. Unfortunately the groupies often seemed to be promoted on the merits of what they could do for the Professor rather than actual skill, and the bona fide students of the art would often see that and loose their faith in the Professor.  

I'm a virtual nobody in terms of any of the Modern Arnis organizations, but I have been aroud enough to see the kind of things Rocky is talking about. Richard Curren and I saw it happen to Dr. Barber. Dr. Barber saw it happen to Don Zanghi,  John Bryant and PG Tom Bolden.  These are just an examples of a pattern that was apparently repeated at several times and several areas of the country.  Many times I saw the Professor introduce a person to a group at a seminar or camp and tell everyone that "XXXX is very good, you must give your support to XXXX".  Later on in the year when people showed some support for "XXXX" as reqested by hie man himself, they found that they and "XXXX" had fallen from the the Professor's good graces.

I don't beleive that I'm committing slander here. It's all known fact, and it has happened to a many people.  I'm not bringing it to light to be malicious, and the statements I'm making are true.  

Because of my involment in the military I was out of the loop on much of the "politcal developments" of the past 10 years or so. I'm pretty happy to be on the fringe of it all since I was never really sucked into it.  In 1992, I was stationed in Germany. While on leave attending a camp at Irwin Carmichael's place in Huntersville, NC, I was informed by the Professor that I was going to be his "promotional consultant" for Germany and that I was to mail off some certificates to various cantacts in Europe.  At the time I thought that it was a cool thing.  I had no idea that he already had people in Germany, and I hadn't been given their addresses to facilitate working with them. I had a verbal appointment with no REAL responsibilty,  no plan of action and no support network. 

You can't fault the Professor for trying to ean a living and acheive his goal of speading Modern Arnis throughout the world. He did just that. The only big flaw in my mind was the lack of a structured organization with clear cut gaols and operational parameters. It appears that the formation of IMAF Inc and The MoTT group was an attempt at a quick fix for that, but to people on the outside looking in it appeared to be a last chance to jockey for position and rank. I mean that objectively, so don't anybody get all butt-sore over it and start flaming all of the  on-line forums.         

We can't change what has been done, but we can learn from it. We can't learn from it if we dwell on it and continually agonize over it.  

Respectfully submited,

Tim Kashino


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## arnisador (Jul 21, 2003)

I have to agree with *Rocky* on many issues. The Professor was certainly a good salesman in terms of his seminars but on the organizational side he was less strong, or at least not sufficiently attentive. Rank was certainly given out like candy at times and the Professor never wanted to say something negative about people which sadly led to some people being misled about their true status. I have to agree that the current state of affairs is the result of poor or incomplete planning on the part of the the person at the top.

The comment about having Students and Groupies really rings true. The lack of a well-defined curriculum didn't help--though the frequent changes meant there was always Something New to help sell the seminars.


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## Rocky (Jul 21, 2003)

I appreciate some of the support, and am glad that Professor had some real students who can see thru the not so pleasent stuff but still see him for the Martial Arts Legend and Pioneer that he was and deserves to be recognized as. For some well all I can say about them is they probably still think Elvis is alive and that the Mexican Boarder pays rent, I really don't know what to think of these misled micro brains.

 Anyways contray to some mental midgets who think I am just slamming the man who gave me so much in the Martial arts, I have decided to start a new thread. On the lighter side of Remy. If you have any good stories I think the people would like to here some of them.

Rocky


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## Bob (Jul 21, 2003)

As most know I am a "Wordenite", a worshipper of Datu Worden, and after meeting the Professor only 3 times I am a worshipper of him too.......... I am just a Junior in the arts, so I am going to try and write my feelings with respect.... 

 First off, I feel that the topic of what the Professor should have done, what he did, and who he said things too etc. etc. etc. is already been addressed and re-addressed, so why is it still an issue?  
 Next, when Datu Dieter started this thread I felt he was rather specific in what he was trying to accomplish 


> Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to start a flaming war *whose fault it is or he has done this and the other has done that.* I would just like to discuss on a sincere, honest level, what happened there and what could be done in the future, to bring together more people in a future Modern Arnis event.


 Mr. Paswick, you are more then welcomed to your opinion, but your opinion has been stated by you and many others time and time again. Personally, I thought it was poor timing then and still is, but a year ago at least it was new information.... This thread (and I will accept being told "your wrong") in my perception was focused more on what "we" are doing wrong today, not what went wrong in the past. Yes, the Professors has credence in this thread, but not in the way you wrote about him.....   
 Mr. Paswick you are blunt individual and there is nothing wrong with that, but you should realize that people will step up and defend the Professor, regardless if they are "worshippers" or not.  
 Datu Worden and Datu Hoffman are correct when they said (this is not an exact quote), but enough is enough. I don't see much loyalty or love in what you wrote, but I must say I have never met you. You must have a different way in expressing yourself, as does Datu Worden and Datu Hoffman, which was evident here on this thread..... 
 Overall Sir, personally I am tired of the blame being place on the Professor. I don't advocate building shrines for the man, but what ever happen to the letting the man rest in peace.
 We all have had our moments with the Professor, some good some bad, but what he did in the past is over and done with. It is time to move forward with what we have. What I have noticed over the months it seems as though all the groups have been doing just that...... Yes, it seems there is some unfinished business, but in all honesty we should all keep our mouths shut and let the people involved hash things out and while they are doing that we take up the slack, keep working and move forward. Once they are doing with whatever they needed to do, we can catch them up....  I know that last idea sounds pretty "Utopian like", but lets be honest here everyone is running around in circles trying to find the answers........ Lets just train, and when people decide to explore out of their own groups then great... I have not heard of any group before the symposium closing their doors to anyone. So, maybe just maybe if we just all train have fun, and focus our internet conversation to the "whole" of Modern Arnis and Martial arts instead of just a piece then maybe we could accomplish more.... (again Utopian :asian: )
 I am glad when I clicked on Martial talk this morning to see the new thread you started. I think that is a great!! I haven't heard a good story about the Professor written on the internet in almost two years........ 
 Overall, I think it is time to let the Professor rest, and move forward with the new era.... and lastly Datu Worden and Datu Hoffman are not so different from you, they are both blunt people each with various styles in communication, what does make them different is they place their respect, loyalty, love, anger and disappointment for the Professor inside their hearts and not on the internet...........  

Bob 

P.s. I am going back to being a silent reader of Martial talk now, so if anyone needs to reply to me, you can email me (email can be found here or at the WMAC or preferably reply at WMAC forum... I apolgize to Bob Hubbard and the other MT moderators for our abrupt replies, but sometimes even us Wordenites, Worshippers as well as other Mental midgets need to speak......
P.s.s Yes, we at WMAC read Martial talk there is a lot of great info here... Good Job Kaith aka Bob Hubbard


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## Cruentus (Jul 21, 2003)

Nice online name (lol) :rofl: 

I wanted to clear up this one thing, because I have heard you mention this more then once. It needs to be addressed.



> At the time I was surprised to see the lack of support from the WMAA since Tim has so many affiliated schools relatively close by, but given the conflicts between him and Dr. Barber I see why. It's unfortunate.



There are reasons for this that warrent explaination. The conflicts between Tim Hartman and Jerome Barber are indeed unfortunate, but have little to do with the lack of turn out of WMAA members.

The main reason behind this lack of turn out is that the WMAA is growing so rapidly that our members and affiliates have prioritized our events over other non-WMAA events (which is their choice, for they would have the freedom to do otherwise), and they are so busy trying to keep up with WMAA events that at the moment they don't have the time or the cash to go outside of our organization. We have gone from 3 to now I believe 6 camps scheduled this year. We have multiple seminars going on around the country all the time, and the world if you include Tim's ventures to overseas. I can't even keep track of all that is going on (I remember when visiting the IMAF, Inc. event I told Brain Johns that I thought we had 3 camps scheduled, not realizing all the events that were in the works! ) 

For the record, I am not going to compare WMAA to other groups. I am just stating what is true right now with us.

The other part of the picture is that because we are not a closed organization, we are demonstrating "symposium like" behavior (minus the "put up or shut up" nuances, and other steller marketing techniques). This weekend Tim will be teaching in London Ont. next to Dr. Gyi, and Paul Irish. I am hosting Tim in November alongside GM Bong Journalas and Rich Parsons. These are just examples of two events: Bong, Rich, Irish, and Gyi are not strictly WMAA Modern Arnis by any stretch of the means. So in terms of a "gathering of the minds" we have been doing this at many of our events; we didn't "need" a symposium to accomplish this. Plus, we have strictly enough modern arnis events and schools that we can support an entire curriculum and rank structure.

So, as a WMAA instructor and board member, I must say that we did the best we could. We didn't schedule any events on top of the symposium, Tim and myself went to support the event, and we told our students to attend, if it was within their set of priorities. The response I got when I would ask WMAA students if they were going was often to the tune of, "No, I would rather go to The event with Gyi, Irish, and Tim in London, then go to the Delaware camp...." Or..."why when I can see you or Tim whenever I want, and that is all I care to see, really....." Or "I only have it in my budget to attend your Michigan camp in the fall, and I'd like to make it out to Chicago to See Murray, Converse, and Hartman.....", etc. etc. etc. etc. What can I say to that.......??????? :idunno: :idunno: 

I can't say anything to rebutle. We can't slow down our progress as an Organization just to support someone elses event, and we shouldn't be expected to. And, Unfortunatily, Time and $$ is a factor. Right now the fact is that our members are very happy, so they have chosen to invest their time and $$ into WMAA events at the moment. I advocate, "experiencing the world" on the one hand, but on the other I am glad to see that our members are very happy. With many of our events numbering 50+ student turnouts, it would appear that WMAA members are very happy, and that there is a demand out there for our growth!  

Heck, on a side note, some of my students don't even go to events because they say, "Why would I do that when I can see you every week?" I know, they're crazy!  And I tell em' that too! 

So, please don't think Ill of the WMAA or Tim for not making the symposium a "better turnout" in terms of numbers. Really, we did the best we could.

Sincerely,
Paul Janulis
Satisfied WMAA customer


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 21, 2003)

We can spend the next few years analyzing the situations left by Remys premature passing, and still go no where.  We still will just go in circles IMO.

Things were left in a certain state, some good, some bad, many in the middle.  All we can do is determine where we are at this moment, and then figure out the best way to move forward so that there is a positive outcome for both us, and the art.

What was wrong 2 years ago is not necessarily what is wrong today.  In the aftermath of Remys death many who had been silent have again stepped forward.  This is both good and bad.  Its good, because the art is again out there being noticed.  It is bad because many of these peoples skills have stagnented from lack of the 'polishing' that one got from being near Remy.  Modern Arnis appears to me to be a dynamic, growing art, that is often times turned into a very personal expression.

I think in 2 years, we've come a long way.  When I first got involved, there was alot of heated hostility and some of it was pretty vicious.  Now, the groups are starting to work together.  How long before we start seeing some really big joint ventures?  We've seen 2 datus on the roster of 2 events so far.  Maybe someday, we will even see the 6 do a world tour together.   (Like the Jackson 5, only with 1 more person, and better rythem on the sticks.) :rofl:

I can't answer for anyone else but myself.  Funding now for me as well as many is a serious issue.  Once I can afford it, I have every intention of hitting some IMAF camps, and even traveling to the NW to see Datu Worden. (Plus it'll give me a chance to moon the Micro$oft campus afterwards)   I believe that each group has a piece, but not the whole, and I want to see it all.  Some of those groups may not want me there.  That is fine, but we both lose in those instances.

My personal goal is to keep training.  I may never reach a high rank, but, the journey itself is the reward.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 21, 2003)

> P.s. I am going back to being a silent reader of Martial talk now, so if anyone needs to reply to me, you can email me (email can be found here or at the WMAC or preferably reply at WMAC forum... I apolgize to Bob Hubbard and the other MT moderators for our abrupt replies, but sometimes even us Wordenites, Worshippers as well as other Mental midgets need to speak......
> 
> P.s.s Yes, we at WMAC read Martial talk there is a lot of great info here... Good Job Kaith aka Bob Hubbard



No worries.  Sometimes, you gotta get things outta the system.  I only bring out the hoses when my mental picture of the participants has fire coming out of their mouths, and froth dripping. 

:cheers:


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## arnisador (Jul 21, 2003)

I think *Bob* has posted much sense. It goes to the fact that perhaps the Symposium was too soon. The comparison to Ed Parker and Kenpo is apt. Still, who knew going in? But yes, this thread has gone from the State of the Art to an analysis of how we got to the current State, which leads back to the Professor, and that wasn't the intention.

*PAUL* accurately puts the case for the WMAA. There are more WMAA events than I could possibly attend--even if money were no issue, time would be (in fact I'm trying to find when Mr. Hartman has some free time for me to come visit him in Buffalo but with his very busy schedule plus my constraints it isn't easy!)--so outside events get lower priority. Although WMAA members are encouraged to go to such events, it's no surprise that those who choose to join the WMAA are interested in its many events across not only the U.S. but in fact across the world. When you add in our guest instructors such as Dr. Gyi, Datu Jornales, etc., one sees that there is variety at WMAA events as well. We have had Modern Arnis instructors who are not WMAA members (Mr. Jornales, Mr. Parsons, for example) and Kombatan instructors and so on.

So, while the Symposium was clearly a great opportunity, for WMAA members it had a lot of competition.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2003)

I think a big factor was the lack of advertising. Much was done on MT.com, but how much was done elsewhere? I think that if he had spent more time promoting via mail, phone,etc. there would have been a bigger turn out. 

I would also like to state that I never made a public statement to the members of the WMAA telling them wether to attend or not. I took flyers to Detroit, handed them out at my camp and posted information on the WMAA site. I can not force my members to attend an event that they don't want to attend.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Emptyglass _
> * I've been involved with learning and then learning and teaching Modern Arnis and the Filipino Martial Arts since my start in the mid-eighties at John Bryant's school in Amherst, NY, *



Rich-

You only did the one month trial program. I know, because I drove you there myself with Ron Murcin. Ron continued and you didn't. It was the 90s when you started again.


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## Emptyglass (Jul 21, 2003)

Tim:

That's right. I'm not sure what you're questioning as that's what I was referring to. If I remember correctly the school closed not long after that (that was a long time ago so my memory on the passing of John's school is hazy) due to some kind of chicanery with money (?). I remember you driving me in your beat up Monte Carlo and so forth with Ron (I either wasn't old enough to drive or didn't have a car - 14 years old, 16?). That is absolutely correct, although I did remember it as being longer than just the one month, but I could be wrong <shrug>. We were all still hanging around at the hobby shop in West Seneca playing role- playing games in their back room (as that's where we first met) around that time although you were and still are a few years older than me. 

I didn't actually have an Arnis teacher until I met Dr. Barber in 89-90 when I was attending ECC South as an undergrad and continued with him through my time at ECC and Buffalo State until I left the Buffalo area in 1995 to move to Baltimore and continued finding my way alone until last year when I was fortunate enough to meet Guro Bobby Ladra and joined his Arnis group here.

That being said, in the time between John's school and the beginning of my time under Dr. Barber I still continued to practice on my own with the little I had learned in the time I spent there through the guidance of the Professor's Yellow book and other FMA books (Inosanto's especially) as my interest was piqued. It was indeed my start in the world of the Filipino Martial Arts.

I did say learning and then teaching (which meant teaching in my time under Dr. Barber's tuition), and I don't think you'd disagree we did alot of teaching during the 4 weekly classes and Self Defense Club meetings we did in the  early 90's in addition to any seminars we held. No attempt is misinformation is intended here. The point I was making was that I still consider myself a beginner, that's all and I've been trying to learn something of Arnis pretty dilligently (there were a few tough months of work and illness in the last 8 years which interfered quite severely for a bit) for the last 13 years or so. 

I don't think I deserve any titles or recognition for my meager accomplishments and skills in comparisson to some of the other folks I've seen very recently such as PG Tom Bolden, Sifu Peter Vargas and SMs Bram Frank and Dan Anderson at the Symposium. I'm still just a student, and as my user handle says, I always try to Empty (my) Glass. 

That being said, I do think I know something of the FMA, Modern Arnis and its history as I was around during those days in the early 90's and the mid-eighties when you got your start (do you remember the ninja-to?) and I saw alot of what was going on as I kept an eye out for interesting stuff.

Thanks for reminding me of those good old days though. I remember you there as well, as a Green Belt (or was it Orange?) doing class jogs on the streets of Amherst.

Best Regards,

Richard Curren


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## Emptyglass (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *Sorry if I don't place a face with your name but thanks for the post
> 
> ...
> ...



Hi Rocky:

You're welcome and don't mention it. I think we only met briefly on one or two occasions and I was just another face from Buffalo at a seminar.

I think I am training with some good people as well. 

Very interesting posts.

Regards,

Richard Curren


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## Corey Minatani (Jul 22, 2003)

Hi Everyone:

Sorry in advance for responding so late.  I would whole heartedly like to concur with what Bob said earlier.  Although he is probably the most polite, humble, and capable instructor out of Datu Worden's camp I have ever met that can break a person's sticks in drill work without a problem.  The only other one is Professor Trigg.  In any event, we should model Bob's attitude towards the Professor, his legacy, his instructors (that he has/hasn't promoted), and his methodology in teaching.  Now, it could be just me, but I come from a Japanese family, I was raised, martially, in a traditional system, and furthermore, I respect my elders and seniors.  That is what being a martial artist is all about.  They are humble, they are quiet, and finally, they will always be the student.  

I have always thought of Bob this way, as well as Datu Worden.  I know people may be saying, "say what? Datu Worden is all that, bull****!"  I would remind you, that Datu Worden has not always been a Arnisador.  He was trained in Traditional Isshin-ryu Karate, Shotokan Karate, and Combat Arnis (through his Shotokan teacher) and gained expert rank in all.  That is why I talked of the traditional system, respect of elders and seniors, and training of a Japanese system.  Being a humble, quiet, and a student applies only if the former (i.e. Datu is your junior, you are older than he, he is your student --by this I mean you know more than he does), in most cases this standard isn't met.  So Datu W. doesn't have to be quiet, humble, or studious to people who act like children and haven't done anything but ride coattails.  

Gee, Rocky, where do you fall in?  If you love him like a "father" then shouldn't you honor him like one...

If he was your "father," take his decision like a man and leave it at that.  If he disowned you, now you are free...free to do whatever, but you will never be free to talk crap without backing it up.

I look forward to your reply.  Make sure you answers are logical and clear, and keep out your emotion and  leave out your anecdotal comments.  I am a philosophy major, and I will not let you slide like Bill Clinton did on his impeachment.  If you spill the mayo, be man enough to clean it up.

:asian: Domoo arigatoo (Thank You)

Corey Minatani
B.A. Philosophy
Graduate Student, Industrial/Organization Psychology
Capella University


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *We can spend the next few years analyzing the situations left by Remys premature passing, and still go nowhere.  We still will just go in circles IMO.
> 
> I think in 2 years, we've come a long way.  When I first got involved, there was alot of heated hostility and some of it was pretty vicious.  Now, the groups are starting to work together.  How long before we start seeing some really big joint ventures?   I believe that each group has a piece, but not the whole, and I want to see it all.
> ...



*RIGHT!*  Well said, Bob.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 22, 2003)

> It goes to the fact that perhaps the Symposium was too soon.   posted by Arnisador


I'm not so sure.  When is the best time to do a first event?  It ahd to happen at some point.


> I think a big factor was the lack of advertising. Much was done on MT.com, but how much was done elsewhere? I think that if he had spent more time promoting via mail, phone,etc. there would have been a bigger turn out.  posted by Renegade


Total agreement.  I remember how much advertising we did for the Northwest Summer Camp as well as karate tournaments.  The continual outflow of info is needed for a good turnout.  I recommend a minimum of three flyers and phone calls.


> Bob...he is probably the most polite, humble, and capable instructor out of Datu Worden's camp I have ever met that can break a person's sticks in drill work without a problem. The only other one is Professor Trigg.  posted by Corey Minatani


Corey.  You failed to mention Prof. Trigg's smoothness as well.  For those of you who don't know of or haven't met Leonard Trigg, he is the guy who brought Remy Presas to the Pacific Northwest back in 1979.  He trained with both Remy and Ernesto as well as a number of other Filipino masters.  He is successor to Edgar Sulite's Lameco system and Luckylucky's system as well (I forget the name of it).  Plus, he is *big!*  He makes Kelly, Rich Parsons and Tim look like shrimps.  He is also one of the most soft spoken gentlemen I have met in in my 37 years in the martial arts.  I first met him over 30 years ago in the karate school I trained in.  We've always had a cordial relationship and mutual respect.  

Corey,
Also, Rocky *has* been around the block with RP - longer than many of us and has seen all sides of the man.  Like your instructor, he is not one to mince words.  I agree with both Tim and Kelly on one aspect of Modern Arnis history which is that now the man is gone, it is poor taste to get into _Remy-bashing._  I also agree with Rocky in that to deify the man is wrong as well as anyone who was close to him knows he was far from being nominated for sainthood.

He was a wonderful martial artist.  He enriched the hell out of our martial arts lives and those of us he touched personally are left with a debt of gratitude.  And those of us he pissed off royally, we are left with beer drinking stories.  Many of us are in both camps (touched and pissed).  That's life.

My own view?  When at his funeral I stayed in the chapel with the body until everybody left and then smiled the biggest smile I had for some time.  Why?  I was filled with the memories of all the good times we'd had.  I bade my old friend farewell, wiped the smile off my face as I know *no one* would understand.  See, I had done my grieving already - prior to showing up to the funeral.  My point?  I'll choose to remember the good times and the good in the man.
All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2003)

Dan Wrote:





> Also, Rocky has been around the block with RP - longer than many of us and has seen all sides of the man. Like your instructor, he is not one to mince words. I agree with both Tim and Kelly on one aspect of Modern Arnis history which is that now the man is gone, it is poor taste to get into Remy-bashing. I also agree with Rocky in that to deify the man is wrong as well as anyone who was close to him knows he was far from being nominated for sainthood.



I may have needed to be a little more PC about what I said but what I said is pretty much the same thing you are saying.





> He was a wonderful martial artist. He enriched the hell out of our martial arts lives and those of us he touched personally are left with a debt of gratitude. And those of us he pissed off royally, we are left with beer drinking stories. Many of us are in both camps (touched and pissed). That's life.



Exactamundo, I wonder why these mental midgets that got so bent out of shape never once saw or quaoted me when in the same post that I expressed some of my bad feeling towards Remy, they never once focused on the point that I credit him, thank him and love him for the skills he helped me develop,  for giving and sharing things that he rarely ever shared with anyone else. Personally I think ( to turn things around on guys like Kelly boy) is they are upset because he probablly never shared it with them. If you remember,  I think it was his camp in 1984 or 5 in Olympia or Portland I forget. He and I gave what was his first Balintawak demo in the U.S. And if you remember the first thing he did was went a little harder and faster than I  could handle and split my eye open. Which to Remy was a real no no because he never ever wanted to scare off any kind of beginner that might be sitting in the audiance. I rember the first thing he said was Oh Rocky don't turn around!!! But it was to late, then  after first telling everyone this is Balintawak, its what I learned as a kid, Rocky and I will show a little, then BAM!! he splits my eye open, and then looks at everyone and says " Oh but we won't be doing Balintawak!!! 

 He also avoided me most of the rest of the camp, I think he was a little upset that I couldn't handle what he threw at me, because after the camp he said Rocky you go train more with Teddy ( GM BUOT ) I am not very happy with your technique, so thats what I did. A few months latter we played hard and he was all smiles, told me I was no longer a Modern Arnis man, I was an Eskrimador ( the most rewarding thing he ever said to me) I walked around for quite some time grinning from ear to ear. Since around 1984 Remy has never sparred with me using his right hand, he always had to go with his left, which means as an instructor he and Ted trained me properly, I acheived a level that forced him to actually concentrate when we played, and use his best tools. I just wished we could have palyed even more. Remy loved to watch me and Ted, and Ted liked to watch me and Remy. I think Remy really got a kick out of watching Ted, because everytime he watched us, all he could talk about was how Ted look exactically like " The Old Man" That being Great Grand Master Anciong Bacon. Remy was somewhat mesmorized when watching GM Buot.

Rocky


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2003)

Corey your seem awful proud of your Philosophy degree, I think you should demand your money back!!



> Gee, Rocky, where do you fall in? If you love him like a "father" then shouldn't you honor him like one...



First of all I don't know what the hell you are trying to point out here do you??






> If he was your "father," take his decision like a man and leave it at that. If he disowned you, now you are free...free to do whatever, but you will never be free to talk crap without backing it up.



 Where did I talk Crap prove it , prove everything I said didn't happen.

 So Remy disowned me!! Wow! you really are the all knowing oricle of wisdom!!! I think GM Buot who was much closer to Remy then you could ever imagine and I am sure you have a great imagination, might have a little different opinion on this matter.



> I look forward to your reply. Make sure you answers are logical and clear, and keep out your emotion and leave out your anecdotal comments. I am a philosophy major, and I will not let you slide like Bill Clinton did on his impeachment. If you spill the mayo, be man enough to clean it up



First speaking of being a man, try being man enough to speak the truth good or bad, not just the warm fuzzy stuff

 My replies were logical and direct, you just don't have the capability to understand it.

 Read everything I wrote again!!! and don't just focuss on the negitive, apply some of that education, you are so proud of. I caught hell for telling the good and the bad, thats it in a nut shell. maybe you were taught to sugar coat and lie about things I wasn't, it is what it is. And never forget my little philosophical friend, respect is a two way street. And to truely honor someone is to recognize them as a whole not just what you want to see. You see it is your emotions and that of others that keep you from seeing the whole.

 Not to bring up politics or get on to much of tangant here, but its like Liberals, and Conservative, these two group of people get so cought up in their parties that they often can not and will not recognize if the other side has a good point. I cosider myself a  conservative, and some of my buddies get pissed when I say something good about a Democrates or a Liberal's ideal or point of view. Hence the current American mentality, " Don't tell me the truth, tell me what I want to here"

  So all I was doing was ansewering a valid question posted, " What happened to Modern Arnis???

  So to show you I am a good sport, and I want you to feel all warm a fuzzy, I was wrong!!!! Their is nothing wrong nor was there ever anything wrong with the way Modern Anis was run. Anything that is or was wrong was someone else's fault!! I know it was Elvis's fault.

 I never did trust that guy.

Here is a little quote you may philosohize ( is that a word) about for a while.

" The mass of the population is only surpassed my its ignorance"


Rocky ( lets make everyone warm and fuzzy) Pasiwk

 Sorry  I am community college type of guy, no degree, to busy making money!!!


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## Corey Minatani (Jul 22, 2003)

Hello Rocky:

There was never a question to your level of accomplishment nor your tenure with GM Presas.  My concern here was your basic-level, unprofessionalism towards other martial artists.  I think that your words are slightly sharp towards the Professor, and could be managed another way, simple as that.  You can still tell your truth while being cordial about it, after all, the Professor is dead, maintain some respect.  

I agree that you do have some positive things to point out about the Professor, and that they may be correct.  Again, delivery is everything.

About my degree, sure, I'm proud of it, but if you check my profile, I've always had the same credentials online for about a year and a half.  Too busy making money isn't an excuse to further your education, nor improve your mental capacity.  Sometimes I think people who use that adage, "I'm too busy making money," is an excuse or an example of their being afraid of someone telling them they are wrong or have something to learn.  If you check MY post, I'm talking more along the lines of being a martial artist and what that means, rather than your ego or your stories.  I know many of these people who read your posts will not come to you for lessons, but many people who would take lessons from someone such as you portray, might think twice due in part to unprofessionalism.  At 5th Degree, your rank does imply great skill, but it also implies a certain amount of responsibility.  How will you view yourself in 5-10 years?  Everyday you write another episode to your legacy...what have you done and where are you going?  To this is what I think Datu Dieter was talking about.  I would argue that it is not independence that separates FMA internationally, but their professionalism.  Obviously, many FMA have not reached the standard of that in Europe.

In any event, talk of bravado via the internet is pretty empty there Rocky.  I will make the point to visit if I'm in the area, and you with me, if you make it over to mine.  

Corey Minatani
B.A. Philosophy
Graduate Student, Industrial/Organizational Psychology
Capella University


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## Cruentus (Jul 22, 2003)

Stop by my house along the way, if you are in michigan....


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Corey Minatani _
> *Now, it could be just me, but I come from a Japanese family, I was raised, martially, in a traditional system, and furthermore, I respect my elders and seniors.  That is what being a martial artist is all about.  They are humble, they are quiet, and finally, they will always be the student.
> 
> That is why I talked of the traditional system, respect of elders and seniors, and training of a Japanese system.
> ...



Corey,
Could you clear something up for me?  Obviously I am not Japanese nor was I raised in the Japanese tradition as a martial artist however I thought respect, humility and courtesy was a two way street - junior to senior *and * senior to junior.  According to the above, if a junior acts like a hoser, a senior can act in like kind?  This is confusing as from what I've observed and studied in the past regarding formal courtesies, this is more of an American trait.  I was taught that a junior exhibiting bad form was itself enough of a dishonor to him and his and that a rebuttal wasn't necessary.  Per Japanese traditional values, am I incorrect?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Rocky (Jul 22, 2003)

Corey Wrote:



> was never a question to your level of accomplishment nor your tenure with GM Presas. My concern here was your basic-level, unprofessionalism towards other martial artists. I think that your words are slightly sharp towards the Professor, and could be managed another way, simple as that. You can still tell your truth while being cordial about it, after all, the Professor is dead, maintain some respect.



Corey I agree as I did with Dan Anderson, I might should have been a little more PC about it, and yes sometimes, I am a little to forward. But none of it was a lie.

 I wonder if you are posting anything to Kelly since I never attacked him in the manner in which he attacked me. Which was totally unbefitting of a humble martial arts master who is at one with himself??? Breath find your center weed hopper!!





> About my degree, sure, I'm proud of it, but if you check my profile, I've always had the same credentials online for about a year and a half. Too busy making money isn't an excuse to further your education, nor improve your mental capacity. Sometimes I think people who use that adage, "I'm too busy making money," is an excuse or an example of their being afraid of someone telling them they are wrong or have something to learn. If you check MY post, I'm talking more along the lines of being a martial artist and what that means, rather than your ego or your stories. I know many of these people who read your posts will not come to you for lessons, but many people who would take lessons from someone such as you portray, might think twice due in part to unprofessionalism. At 5th Degree, your rank does imply great skill, but it also implies a certain amount of responsibility. How will you view yourself in 5-10 years? Everyday you write another episode to your legacy



 Good for you I to am equally proud of my sucess in business, why do you think that going to school is the only way to improve your mental capacity. Try building a company from the ground up without the help of a large bank account, only had the money I made from teaching Eskrima seminars and fighting. Yet I built it to a 6 store chain. I recently lost a years wages for some people in 10 minutes, you don't think a person learns from this??? You need to ease up on your perception of another persons form of education. To  losely quote Rodney Dangerfield in his movie Back to school, If it wern't for guys like us, it'd be a lot harder for guys like you to afford going to school, just so you can look down on guys like us. 

 Anyways I am not going to play the I did this so I am better than you game. I will say that it is always smart to better your education, its why I pay $12,000.00 a year for my 5 yr old to be in a private academy, so you are right there. But just remember you may be asking a guy like me for a job someday  






> In any event, talk of bravado via the internet is pretty empty there Rocky. I will make the point to visit if I'm in the area, and you with me, if you make it over to mine.



 Quite true, but at any rate if you are ever in the area you are more than welcome to stop by as is anyone  to bulshit or play with the sticks a bit, or what ever. We are trying to get the Motor city Masacure back on track in October, Its a full contack stick party, fencing helmit only no toher knee and elbow only protection, no gloves or chest protection, 7ft ring, no grappling stick skill only, but I keep running into legal issues, we almost got arrested a couple years ago for fighting in public, but hopefully I will find out something in thenext couple of weeks.

 Rocky " really I am edumicated" Pasiwk


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *. . .
> Quite true, but at any rate if you are ever in the area you are more than welcome to stop by as is anyone  to bulshit or play with the sticks a bit, or what ever. We are trying to get the Motor city Masacure back on track in October, Its a full contack stick party, fencing helmit only no toher knee and elbow only protection, no gloves or chest protection, 7ft ring, no grappling stick skill only, but I keep running into legal issues, we almost got arrested a couple years ago for fighting in public, but hopefully I will find out something in thenext couple of weeks.
> 
> Rocky " really I am edumicated" Pasiwk *



Rocky,

Make sure you let me and the rest of the Flint Guys know when ou get it up and running.

Thanks


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 22, 2003)

Corey,

Could you answer my questions on page 4 of this thread?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Corey Minatani (Jul 23, 2003)

Hello Rocky:

Without trying to slide from the original issue about martial philosophy as it applies to ethics and so forth, I will try to answer both Rocky and SM Anderson's questions.

I have built and ran, a sucessful studio, and I also work for a fortunue 50 company (where I am in Management), full-time, as well as having four children, going to school full time, and having my wife go full time as well.  In any event, I don't believe I said going to college was the only way.  I was blocking your curt attack against my degree in a subject you know little about, which you admitted freely, by being a CC kind of guy.  Anyway, guys like me probably won't be scraping for a job from a guy like you.  Nothing bad about what you do, its mainly just an income for one family, unless you are talking you run a chain of about 100 schools, which I don't think you are up that well, are you?  In any event, my only complaint, was your manners were unprofessional.    

In addition, my students have been undeafeated in stick fighting competitions for about 2 years running in our town where many schools host these kinds of events, and my students are not only sucessful at FMA, but Karate and Aiki-ju-jutsu arts as well.  I have also taught at the college level and have had successful teams competiting against top players in karate in the major tournament circles.  

Now to answer SM Anderson.  I think you know my position upon this subject, I know you know more than you say here, SM.  In any event, the comment was general in nature, and I will not speak against my instructor nor my seniors.  My chain of command does not include you nor Rocky.  I give you guys due respect, but if everyone acts like a "hoser" as you put it, where is that getting us?  Internet is great, people can say whatever, but I seriously doubt this much bravado would be going on if push came to shove and people were face-to-face.  In any event, you know how Masters can get nipping back and forth, you've done it in the past, as have we all.  Let me know if this what sufficient, Dan.

Corey Minatani
B.A. Philosophy
Graduate Student, Industrial/Organizational Psychology
Capella University


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Corey Minatani _
> *1.  Now to answer SM Anderson.  I think you know my position upon this subject, I know you know more than you say here, SM.  2.  In any event, the comment was general in nature, and I will not speak against my instructor nor my seniors.
> 3.  My chain of command does not include you nor Rocky.
> 4.  I give you guys due respect, but if everyone acts like a "hoser" as you put it, where is that getting us?
> ...



Hi Corey,
1.  I got this is _your_ position.  I'm asking about traditional Japanese etiquette.  Your personal position and traditional teaching probably differ to a degree. 
2.  Got it.  I neither ask nor expect you to disrespect your seniors.  That would be a violation of your ethical code.
3.  I know and I like how you state that, your chain of command.  I wish I'd thought of that way of putting it.  I'm stealing it.  Be advised I will not send you any royalties, though.
4.  It gets us nowhere.  Well, it either gets us pissed, amused or makes the recipient wrong depending on the intention of the communication in the first place.
5.  Face to face communication is live AND if manners are $h!t and chest swelling bravado is evident, fights or hockey games break out.  Speaking of live communication, I am going to be in Spokane this weekend for a Bram Frank seminar.  Is Ellensburg close enough to there for you and I to get together and meet?  If now, then some other time.
6.  What is sufficient is a brief and direct answer to my question regarding traditional Japanese etiquette.  As you have been raised in the system you have first hand knowledge which would outstrip any book learning I could get on the subject.  Please get me an answer either in this thread (which by the way has gotten *way* off the subject), or in an email or if we can meet this weekend, in person.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jul 23, 2003)

Do you manage there?


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## Cruentus (Jul 23, 2003)

I know with myself that the things I say on the net, I would say in person, if the conversation fell into place in the same manner. I find that most people I have talked too in person who have argued with me on the net take a different tone in person, which causes me to take a different tone as well. It's just one of those things.

I understand the point though; many people who are on the net have keyboard courage.

In Rocky's case, however, this is not a case of internet bravado. Everything he has said here he would in fact say in person in front of anyone, even if it ment him getting his grill blown out. He just doesn't give a damn. I don't know if this is something to be proud of, but this is true.

Understand, I am not taking sides in this "arguement" here, but I am just saying what I believe is true from the little bit that we have talked, and the little bit I know about him.

PAUL


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 23, 2003)

Now that this has turned into a food fight and everybody is pissed at everybody, I thought I'd go back to the original intent of Dieter's post in the first place.

I'll agree with Rocky's answer.  It _was_ Remy Presas.  But here I'm taking a different tack.  I'll explain.

Anyone who has been raised in the martial arts since the 1960's (as I have) or 1970's was raised in an organizational heirarchy, based on a combination of the oriental senior-junior system and western organization.  A good example would be Hidetaka Nishiyama's AAKF.  He was the senior instructor, lineage direct to Gichen Funakoshi.  He had a rank structure.  He was the top guy and you knew who the next guys in line were.  The organization had affiliate schools and there was a honbu dojo (main school).  It was organized in all aspects.

Remy Presas was a fighter, not an organization man.  According to Remy Jr., his wife Rosemary was a driving force behind him and organizing Modern Arnis.  Remy Presas acted very much by personal drive, phenominal skill and force of personality.  _There was no organization._  At best, there were three groups: 1. Remy Presas himself, 2. those who loyally followed Remy and 3. those who broke off for one reason or another.

The organizing was left to others.  Many of us tried to set up a honbu dojo but to no avail.  Many of us tried to get set up some sort of standardized ranking system, again to no avail.  

*This sort of thing was not in the basic nature of the man so it did not occur.  Pure and simple.*  Remy Presas was a blue collar guy, not a white collar guy.  To me, that's the simplicity of it.

Organizing occurred outside of Remy Presas.  Prior to his death,  DAV, IMAF, and WMAA were the only purely _Remy Presas Modern Arnis _ organizations I can think of.  After his death, more and more people began to organize.  We are nowhere near a Gathering Of Eagles stage yet but we have made tremendous strides in these tumultuous two years since his passing.  

And we'll make even more.  Mark my words.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jul 23, 2003)

> Now that this has turned into a food fight and everybody is pissed at everybody, I thought I'd go back to the original intent of Dieter's post in the first place.



lol....the digression of this thread might answer Dieters question.....Good Job Guys!

:rofl: 

I joke around only because I am confident that we'll get it together eventually. We can only argue so much in this art before we are all argued out, even if it takes us a few more years.


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## Cruentus (Jul 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Do you manage there?
> 
> *



For those of you who might not not me; I was only kidding with Corey, and not discounting his career, which is clearly listed in his profile. 

Thanks,

PAUL:asian:


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## Emptyglass (Jul 24, 2003)

Dear Richard,
_
Would you please post the following message on MT?_ Thanks.
_
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Renegade, Advisor, wrote on 7-22-2003

I think a big factor was the lack of advertising. Much was done on MT.com, but how much was done elsewhere? I think that if he had spent more time promoting via mail, phone,etc. there would have been a bigger turn out. 
I would also like to state that I never made a public statement to the members of the WMAA telling them wether to attend or not. I took flyers to Detroit, handed them out at my camp and posted information on the WMAA site. I can not force my members to attend an event that they don't want to attend. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would seem that you are unaware of what_I and several associates did to publicize the Symposium, so I will inform you as to what we did._ First we used the MT.C-Modern Arnis Forum._ This was a natural outlet and should have been a good source for getting the word out and attacting people to the event._ It was not good for either!_ Too much bickering and ********._ Too many egos and_ too much jealosy._ This source was useless as a recruiting forum except for getting instructors to sig on for presentations.

My associates and I posted announcements on 15 forums, lists and bullentin boards, besides the MT.C.__ We contacted and used these other forums at least three times over a one year period._ My associates and I sent out 2000 e-mail messages to individuals on our combined mailing lists._ All of these people were martial artists and associated with the FMAs, Kenpo, Tai Chi, and several different Karate styles._ We mailed out another 200 e-mails to people specificly associated Modern Arnis._ We used the lists posted by ALL of the Modern Arnis organizations including, WMAA, IMAF, WMAC and IMAF, Inc._ I personally searched the web for any person with a web page and who claimed to be teaching_Modern Arnis, even as an add-on program, but who might not be affilliated with an organization to inform them of the Symposium.

I also published an article in Inside Kung Fu with some information about the Symposium._ Please note that virtually no one mentioned that article on the MT.C._ That lack of response was an additional clue that attendence from the forum membership would be slim at best.

As far as the Advisor being unable to force his students to go to an event that they do not wish to attend, I can understand that and have no problem with that statement._ However, I am being held to a much higher standard when it comes to my students and the Norshadow matter - I am responsible for that occured according to most of the posters and MT.C administration._ But if my_goal was to harm and injure the WMAA_in general and the Advisor in particular, why would the meeting between Norshadow and the Advisor be held_in a small ante-room, without any announcement to the assembled Symposium attendees and at the end of the day when people want to leave for showers and dinner?_

I believe, based on what the Advisor has posted earlier and his current comment, that if he had sent more time and energy working with his Buffalo based students, there would have been 3-5 people from his own school in attendance._ 

I would also like to point out that several people contacted me privately and stated that they cold not attend because their organizational leadership/ instructors discouraged them based on the notion that it would not be in the best interest of the organization._ None of those people were WMAA affiliated._ On the other hand, as stated to me directly by the Advisor, when he was asked by an instructor from the WMAA at the May Camp, if he should attend the Symposium, the Advior's response was, "I'm too busy with my own camp to worry about the Symposium."_ Since the Advisor told me about that conversation, it is not heresay._ It also conveys very clearly the Advisors intentions with_regard_the Symposium.

A significant number of people found the Symposium idea very threatening._ It was not a standard Modern Arnis_organizational camp with the predictable format and familiar faces._ It was not going to be an easy event under the control of an acknowledged organizational leader._ The Symposium was a wide open affair and the people instructing were going to be compared to one another._ In fact I had the Symposium participants evaluate the preentations of all of the instructors._ That doesn't happen at Modern Arnis camps, does it?__The Symposium_was not a comfortable event for some people to consider attending._ The lack of significant attendence by the Modern Arnis Community was both predictable and unfortunate._ 

The excuses that have been offered on the MT.C are just that excuses._ The loudest noises are being made by the people who did_not attend.__As always, justifications are being offered after the fact and when one is already committed to the behavior._ Those who did not attend must find a way to justifiy staying home.__The excuses given include, "too soon after Remy's death", "not a Modern Arnis event," "hosted by the wrong person," and "it was a put up or shut up event"._ To all of that_I will simply say, if you had the stones post and criticize but failed to attend, then_there must_some serious questions as to your real skill and abilities within the art of Modern Arnis!__

And_I will conclude by saying that since I have been suspended and can not reply via the forum, please have the strength of your convictions and reply to me directly at escrima_kenpo@hotmail.com ._ I_will not tie up this young man's time and computer having him post for me._ Once is enough!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D._


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 24, 2003)

> * This was a natural outlet and should have been a good source for getting the word out and attracting people to the event. It was not good for either! Too much bickering and ********.  Too many egos and too much jealousy.*



Mostly by you and the many faces you use.



> * My associates and I posted announcements on 15 forums, lists and bulletin boards, besides the MT.C. We contacted and used these other forums at least three times over a one-year period. My associates and I sent out 2000 e-mail messages to individuals on our combined mailing lists. All of these people were martial artists and associated with the FMAs, Kenpo, Tai Chi, and several different Karate styles. We mailed out another 200 e-mails to people specifically associated Modern Arnis. We used the lists posted by ALL of the Modern Arnis organizations including, WMAA, IMAF, WMAC and IMAF, Inc. I personally searched the web for any person with a web page and who claimed to be teaching Modern Arnis, even as an add-on program, but who might not be affiliated with an organization to inform them of the Symposium.
> 
> I also published an article in Inside Kung Fu with some information about the Symposium. Please note that virtually no one mentioned that article on the MT.C. That lack of response was an additional clue that attendance from the forum membership would be slim at best. *



After all of that you only had about 25 participants. 



> *As far as the Advisor*



Call a spade a spade Jerome. Youre talking about me, Datu Tim Hartman. Your biggest problem is that you dont come out and say what you mean. You think youre being sly, but most people see through the BS.



> *However, I am being held to a much higher standard when it comes to my students and the Norshadow matter - I am responsible for that occurred according to most of the posters and MT.C administration. *



No not your student, you. If that were the case you wouldnt be suspended. In addition you lost one of your students due to your actions. This tells me that there is more to the story than you are telling everyone!



> *I believe, based on what the Advisor has posted earlier and his current comment, that if he had sent more time and energy working with his Buffalo based students, there would have been 3-5 people from his own school in attendance. *



As I said before, based on your actions here in Buffalo you have left a bad taste in my students mouth and they choose not to support *ANY* event that you host. In addition this was your event not mine.



> *On the other hand, as stated to me directly by the Advisor, when he was asked by an instructor from the WMAA at the May Camp, if he should attend the Symposium, the Advisors response was, "I'm too busy with my own camp to worry about the Symposium." *



Thats correct. *My event came first!* I have a responsibility to my members, camp goers, seminar hosts and attendees. Those who pay me for a service come first. This is a customer-based industry; I have to worry about my clientel that are in front of me at the moment. Ill take care of my future customers when they get here.



> *"hosted by the wrong person," *



This is the most accurate part of your statement. The problem is that you expected all of this support without offering it in the past. You have supported very few Modern Arnis events in the past. The first time I hosted Remy and had nearly 100 people attend the event. Why? Because I would show support for other hosts by both attending and bringing my students with me. Your end all be all Symposium had less people than my first WMAA camp. Why? Because I support other peoples events.  



> *I will not tie up this young man's time and computer having him post for me. Once is enough! *



I hope not, because that could lead to his suspension.



For the record, I did not want to participate in such an event hosted by Dr. Barber.  I felt that if I had chosen not to participate in one way or another, that I would have been ridiculed for being a snob or accused of being scared, neither are the fact.  Dr. Barber has stirred up ***** not only with me, but with the Buffalo Modern Arnis community.  It got to such a level, that my old partners were prepared to file a restraining order against him to keep him from coming into the school based on his behavior in our school.  I would tell people that if you ignore him enough, he will go away.  Unfortunately he would keep coming back like a stray dog.  

I did not encourage or discourage my members.  If they chose to go, I did not want any responsibility for this decision.  I did not want my members blaming me for a bad experience, so I left the decision up to them.  One person I did discourage from attending.  He said he was going to drive up for the seminar for the Saturday sessions.  This was approximately a 16 hour round trip.  I asked him why he wanted to go.  His reply was to support me.  I then told him that if the only reason he was going to attend this event was to support me, and not care about seeing the other instructors, then maybe he should consider another event.  He will be attending our Fall East Coast Camp.  

Many of us saw the writing on the wall about a month before the symposium.  We saw him beginning to formulate excuses why this thing might go bad.  Now that the event came up short, hes prepared to point fingers at everyone.  The ultimate success or failure of an event lies on the shoulders of the host.  I have seen many seminars with great instructors with very poor participation due to the actions of the host.    

Let me end with this  from the time that the first flyer was distributed five of the instructors withdrew.  This should tell you something.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 24, 2003)

Hmmmm,

Some recent discussions.

There was a recent request to maybe have this thread moved to a less public spot. I believe that it will not be moved.

Things that cross my mind as an independent.

One I volunteered to teach. Jerome never mentioned it. Yet he had numerous people from Tom Boldens' Organization and also courted Paul who is also a member of the WMAA just like Tim and Dan. I thought this was to get a good round view of what was being taught.

Also recently on Escrima Digest this issue has been discussed. Ernest WestBrook came to the defense of Jerome Barber. People who support Jerome Barber or each other on the ED. Lamont Norshadow, Ernest Westbrooke and also Absolum Jones. Now if one of these is a fake person, could not all three just as easily be fake?  Ernest wrote on the ED that he read the complete story here, yet he had information that was not complete discussed here, only for those in the room while the audition was going on. So either Ernest is not real or spent a lot of time talking to Jerome.

Ernest, no disrespect, please contact me. I would like to know for real if you are a real person. It would go really far to show which way this will go. If you are a real person then on only one ID was fake. Maybe Jerome can be excused for the postings, not the directing of the practical joke. Which I did not like and did not feel comfortable being asked to be a witness. Yet, I am in the middle of this all. If you are not a real person then well this is just a little more information for everyone to think about.

Personally, I would like to see this thread and the whole discussion just fade away to bad memory, yet as long as Jerome or any of his supported insist upon having the last word in the defense of being wronged,  I believe that this will continue not only to the detriment of Jerome, but to all of the Modern Arnis Community.

Just my thoughts and opinions.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 24, 2003)

> *
> Personally, I would like to see this thread and the whole discussion just fade away to bad memory... originally posted by Rich Parsons*



Yeah, it's time for it to die a quiet death, at least on the Norshadow biz.  We should go on to other things like what a wonderful post I did on "My family."  Yeaaahhhhhh.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


(* I added in the link to the thread and also This Thread I hope you do not mind Dan  *)


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 28, 2003)

I would imagine that by now all of the axes would have been ground down to the handles, but no, there always seems to be more than enough time to continue. Why? Does it make you both feel young to act like children? I can't undestand why neither of you is man enough to just walk away.

It's all so ridiculous. If the two of you can't get get along enough to settle your differences then just leave it alone. If you can't leave it alone then set aside some private time to settle it with some kinetic energy and get it all out of your system.  Last man standing takes the bragging rights.  If for some reason either of you backs out then that should tell us all something about your level of skill and confidence in your abilities. If either of you feels the need for some sort of restraining order to feel safe, then maybe it says something about that too. 

All of the back and forth accusations and mud-slinging degrades both of you and everyone else that gets involved.  Get over it.

Tim Kashino


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DoxN4cer _
> *I would imagine that by now all of the axes would have been ground down to the handles, but no, there always seems to be more than enough time to continue. Why? Does it make you both feel young to act like children? I can't undestand why neither of you is man enough to just walk away.
> 
> It's all so ridiculous. If the two of you can't get get along enough to settle your differences then just leave it alone. If you can't leave it alone then set aside some private time to settle it with some kinetic energy and get it all out of your system.  Last man standing takes the bragging rights.  If for some reason either of you backs out then that should tell us all something about your level of skill and confidence in your abilities. If either of you feels the need for some sort of restraining order to feel safe, then maybe it says something about that too.
> ...



What He said
:asian:


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## Tgace (Aug 1, 2003)

EGO.
(and underlying self-esteem issues)

IMHO


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## arnisador (Aug 2, 2003)

Ego, yes, but there's more than that. The issues of planning and organization remain.


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## Tgace (Aug 2, 2003)

Granted.....but we will never get to the latter untill the "leaders" overcome the former.


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## loki09789 (Aug 5, 2003)

No one can take away the good things that Remy has left for FMA and Modern Arnis.  He raised FMA from a 'thug' reputation in the PI and brought it national pride in public schools, he challenged traditional arts in America by demonstrating how the concept approach can produce quality and better understanding more quickly at times.

BUT, Remy - the real, flawed human being (just like the rest of us) made some bad decisions that hurt his organization at times.  There are many people on this, as well as other forums, who could tell stories of Remy making questionable decisions that left members feeling double crossed or betrayed.  

Agree or disagee, you have to admit that these are factors that happen in any organization.  'Fathers' will leave their sins for their children to inherit as well as their qualities.  It is up to the children to choose what they will do with it.  

I am reasonbly sure that Remy, like any 'father' would want to see his children take his legacy and further it and as Remy was famous for saying - make it your own (paraphrase).  Regardless of side incidents, I think the symposium was a good example of coming together and sharing.  Cooperation and Respect between variouos MA organizations is the only way that Remy's legacy can be built on positively.  Otherwise, the tribal, petty political 'sins' with overshadow any qualities Remy left.

Paul Martin


Paul Martin


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