# headbutting



## jarrod (Feb 15, 2009)

even as an untrained kid, i always liked headbutts.  i've got a pretty thick skull, & it seems like you can generate a lot of force in a short distance.  

one trick i stumbled upon was closing the gap & following up with a headbutt.  basically you assume a fairly tight boxing-style guard (like the peek-a-boo or philly crab).  then just use any forward-moving evasive technique when your opponent throws a head shot, & step in with a head butt.  for instance if your opponent is throwing a left jab, you could bob & weave under it, then drive forward & up.  your legs are already cocked from bobbing, so you can really drive into it with your legs.  one advantage is, unlike counterpunching, both hands are protecting your face. 

let's hear any tricks or set-ups you may have for headbutts.  i know it's a little more common in the UK, so i expect to hear some good stories from our friends across the pond!

jf


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## myusername (Feb 15, 2009)

In my jujutsu we are always encouraged to look for where the cheap shots are for self defence when applying techniques and the majority of the time it is the headbutt or biting the ear! For example from standing grappling it always seems quite natural to sweep your head in sideways for a headbutt to soften them up. Any grappling technique where you need your head tucked in close to aviod swinging punches from a free hand generally lends itself to a headbutt situation (bearing in mind you need to get in their first as if you are in a position to headbutt so is your assailant). We are told a good headbutt or elbow strike can take distract your opponent from the technique you attempting to apply, thus making it easier to get whatever lock or joint break you are thinking on.

This thread also reminded me of this youtube clip I saw from Trevor Roberts. He talks of using his eyes and a feint to get close in for a good headbutt. Also gives some good advice on headbutt target area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS3sJFt-H3A&feature=related


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## Sandstorm (Feb 15, 2009)

myusername raises valid points. Headbutts can be set up from virtually any situation in grappling. You don't even have to execute a full headbutt, more use a grinding action. EG: pressing your head into the eyes socket or across the cheekbone or jawline. Resting the head with full pressure into those areas is so dibilitating for the recipient.
Here's a fight where the headbutts are used effectively in the ring. Can't fight under these rules now, mind, and Vale has a massive weight advantage anyway, but they can be used as effectively by a small guy.





 
I personally wouldn't use a headbutt unless I was in a clinch or grappling. It's too wayward and unpredictable a tecnique IMO and although you can cover your face with your hands, you are bouncing the brain inside the skull each time you perform one and you'll get a breif moment of dizziness and disorientation, maybe enough time for your opponant to come up with a deciding move.

Hope this helps


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## Drac (Feb 15, 2009)

Headbutts are a NASTY surprize and very effective...


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## KenpoTex (Feb 15, 2009)

A couple of my favorite scenarios for a headbutt have already been covered ("spearing" type after a level change, and from the clinch).  
Another one I practice a lot is done as part of a gun disarm.  I'm a firm believer in keeping both hands on the weapon-bearing arm to control it.  This means that any striking has to be done with other body parts...basically headbutts, knees, or stomps.  My setup is to clear the gun offline while getting both hands on the gun/wrist/arm.  After this, I'll "anchor" my elbows to control the gun.  This causes the BG to get yanked toward me (or me toward him depending on our relative sizes) which sets me up perfectly for a shot right into his ocular/nasal area with the top of my head.
Another one I like is for an attacker to the rear...use the head to find the target by moving it back until you touch them (since we can't see them).  Then retract and fire it back in forcefully striking with the parietal bone (the upper back part of the skull) into their face.

While the headbutt is somewhat limited in the sense that you really have to set it up *carefully*, if you can land it, it's devastating.

edit to add:  I posted this link in another thread recently but since it has a beautiful headbutt, here it is again for anyone who hasn't seen it
http://www.break.com/index/bar-fight-double-knock-out.html


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## searcher (Feb 15, 2009)

Just a couple of thngs I will add to the discussion(great points and setups so far) I would consider conditioning and strengthening the neck if you are going to use the HB and a way I like to use the HB is to turn it into the temple to use as a steering wheel.   I don't strike so much as bump to let myself get position.


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## Guardian (Feb 15, 2009)

My one piece of advice before deciding that headbutts are a technique to use is as one said, strengthen the neck and practice using the right portion of your skull for this or you'll knock yourself senseless and then what?


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## arnisador (Feb 15, 2009)

Always unexpected--I like them myself!


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 15, 2009)

I like them if someone walks too close to me too quick in an obvious aggressive get-in-your-face-and-keep-going fashion

Delivering a simultaneous headbutt to the nose and knee to the groin usually makes them think twice about whatever plans they had.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 15, 2009)

I practice them (usually after a couple of beers) but really would only use one as a last resort.  Even a properly delivered one can give you a concussion.  That being said, they are a  nasty surprise.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 15, 2009)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I practice them (usually after a couple of beers) but really would only use one as a last resort. Even a properly delivered one can give you a concussion. That being said, they are a nasty surprise.


 
Headbutts are not optimal.

But do them if you have to.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 15, 2009)

Nasty surprise indeed and effective.  Not my first choice of action but definitely one in the tool kit!


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2009)

searcher said:


> Just a couple of thngs I will add to the discussion(great points and setups so far) I would *consider conditioning and strengthening the neck* if you are going to use the HB and a way I like to use the HB is to turn it into the temple to use as a steering wheel.   I don't strike so much as bump to let myself get position.



Definitely good advice. And while on the subject...

My old sifu used to go ballistic at the very suggestion of using a headbutt. _"So primitive, like goats or bulls fighting!"_ And while we are discussing the negatives, an old English teacher and former golden gloves boxer told me he even despised the term "_"head-_butt" as redundant. "What else do you butt someone with?" he'd ask, rhetorically. When I volunteered the possibility of a _"butt-butt"_, it was _not_ appreciated. 

All that said, I like having the option of *butting* (There, see that teach? And you said I never listened in class!). However as I am not particularly hard headed (unless you ask my wife), I prefer to use it sparingly, with the hard parts of my head (upper forehead and "corners"--same as a soccer player uses) impacting softer areas of my opponent's head, such as the bridge of the nose or the temples. One (admittedly risky) trick that usually works for me when someone grapples my head to pull it down into a knee strike, is to bend with the pull, blocking the knee full-on the quads with a double "lan-sau" (bar-arms) and rebounding forward, driving my head into my opponent's solar plexus. Then you snap upright again, punching as hard as you can. Sometimes your head even smacks 'em on the jaw as you come up. But yes, it is risky... more of an "_Oh-sheist!"_ or "emergency" move.


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## Stonecold (Feb 15, 2009)

When I was doing a lot of night club work, I  run across a couple of guys who used headbutts. One guy had a bit of a belly, he would get close enough to belly bump his target and when they bent forward he would finish them with a headbutt. This allways seamed to end the dispute. :erg:   The other guy called his headbutt the Glascow kiss.  He would set up right in front of his target then seem to turn away and snap right back driving his haed stright into the face of his foe. :rofl: I have also sean the head butters take damage , such as teeth to the fore head leaving some nasty cuts, broken noses and KO's when not lined up right or the target drops their forehead. Needless to say the Headbutt is a good weapon for street self-defence when set up right.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 15, 2009)

The human brain has no padding inside the skull, and there is almost no subcutaneous fat layer between the skin and the skull.  In other words, when you drive your skull forward and it abruptly stops, it is very much like being punched in the head with that same amount of force, or being thrown onto the dashboard or steering wheel of a car in an accident.  Concussion, permanent brain injury, and death are real and serious threats to the person administering the headbutt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion

I think I would consider it only as a last resort.


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## grydth (Feb 15, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The human brain has no padding inside the skull, and there is almost no subcutaneous fat layer between the skin and the skull.  In other words, when you drive your skull forward and it abruptly stops, it is very much like being punched in the head with that same amount of force, or being thrown onto the dashboard or steering wheel of a car in an accident.  Concussion, permanent brain injury, and death are real and serious threats to the person administering the headbutt.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion
> 
> I think I would consider it only as a last resort.



I strongly agree with this post.... you need something as a last resort to avoid death or serious injury on the spot, well you do it. Weapon of choice though? No way.

Consider the recent damage studies on former NFL players, and that's even with helmets on. People using this technique may find that they win the battles.... but that losing the war is a very long hellish slide into depression, dementia and death. It is not a nice or quick way to go.


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## Hagakure (Feb 16, 2009)

When I was serving in the RN, we'd come back from the Gulf, and stopped off in Gibraltar. Two shipmates of mine got into a fight as to which pub they were going to next (yes they were drunk, yes it was THAT big a deal), and while they were scuffling, and JUST before they got split up, one of them launched a lightning headbutt, I barely saw it, but he caught the other guy square on in the face, who went down like a bundle of washing. Fast, effective, and just like the Spanish Inquisition, no body expects it. 

To this day, I've no idea how he pulled that off so quickly and accurately, especially whilst half cut.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 16, 2009)

grydth said:


> I strongly agree with this post.... you need something as a last resort to avoid death or serious injury on the spot, well you do it. Weapon of choice though? No way.
> 
> Consider the recent damage studies on former NFL players, and that's even with helmets on. People using this technique may find that they win the battles.... but that losing the war is a very long hellish slide into depression, dementia and death. It is not a nice or quick way to go.


 You make a decent point.....but boxers and NFL players get brain damage as the result of multiple concussions received over their careers, not as the result of a single event.

Multiple repetitive career long brain injuries aren't the same as a one or two lifetime event uses of a headbutt for self-defense.


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## myusername (Feb 16, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The human brain has no padding inside the skull, and there is almost no subcutaneous fat layer between the skin and the skull.  In other words, when you drive your skull forward and it abruptly stops, it is very much like being punched in the head with that same amount of force, or being thrown onto the dashboard or steering wheel of a car in an accident.  Concussion, permanent brain injury, and death are real and serious threats to the person administering the headbutt.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion
> 
> I think I would consider it only as a last resort.



Whilst I agree with the risks of clashing heads with a high level of force I think it worth noting that there are various ways of using the headbutt. For the exact reasons you are pointing out in your post Bill, I personally would be very reluctant to stand square on with an assailant and shout "_Och hey you Jimmy!_" and swing my head forward hoping for the best! 

However, I really think that people are missing a trick if they write of headbutts as a do or die, last resort only technique. You don't have to clash heads with a lot of force to inflict the damage on to your opponent. What is important is the part of your head that you use and the target area that you strike. From a clinch you don't have to take a huge swing you only need to nut your head sideways (as if flicking back your hair) into the persons temple area or eye socket. The important thing is making sure that you are only nutting them with the top part of your head above your own eyebrows. Also as Sandstorm mentioned in his post, using a grinding motion with your head from most grappling postions can be very effective. 

So whilst I agree with the risks of a wild swinging headbutt that is looking for the quick knockout, I feel smaller, more controlled nutting from grappling positions can be very effective for causing increased pain to your assailant and taking their focus of the technique your are planning on using. From a grappling postion it is almost criminal not to use them!



grydth said:


> Consider the recent damage studies on former NFL players, and that's even with helmets on. People using this technique may find that they win the battles.... but that losing the war is a very long hellish slide into depression, dementia and death. It is not a nice or quick way to go.



There is a very good chance that I am being ignorant here, as being from the UK I don't get to see much American Football, but my impression of the game leads me to think that these guys will be charging at each other at full speed when thay clash heads? Also as it is their bread and butter they will be doing this on a daily basis so it is no wonder that they experience long term damage. IMHO I don't think this is something the average person who might get into one or two fights in their life time need to worry about. Especially if they are using their headbutts the way I have described above.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 16, 2009)

Speaking of headbutts......the only redeemable moment from the 'train wreck of a reality show' and all around waste of time, 'Tila Tequila's Shot of Love', was the headbutt........fairly effectively delivered by one contestant to another.

http://www.ask.com/bar?q=youtube+ti...&u=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnCSnAMB9pU

I believe that the recipient received a broken jaw and lost some teeth........the most entertaining moment in a show that was only slightly less entertaining that a root canal.


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## grydth (Feb 16, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> You make a decent point.....but boxers and NFL players get brain damage as the result of multiple concussions received over their careers, not as the result of a single event.
> 
> Multiple repetitive career long brain injuries aren't the same as a one or two lifetime event uses of a headbutt for self-defense.



I would also concede your points. Research is by far not conclusive as yet, and each individual fighter has to decide this on their own. 

Sometimes it is possible, given vicious enough hits and prompt medical diagnosis, to determine specific points in an athlete's career where the damage was inflicted. Other times, I concede, this is not the case.


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## Jimi (Feb 16, 2009)

When I trained with Henry Sotelo (Kenpo Guy) he taught us what he called the RAM. It used Headbutts, Knees & Elbows as the typical strikes for inclose clinch fighting. I also have trained a long time in the Burmese Arts, I also learned of their Bull & Boar systems using Stomps, Knees, ELbows & Headbutts. These techniques are usually taught to a practioner depending on their attributes & character. A previous post mentioned a Sifu who was unhappy with just the mention of a Headbutt saying " Like a goat or bull" I say exactly right!!! If you do not like the headbutt, you are not a Bull, Boar or Ram so don't use it. To profess that a headbutt has such little use in self defense, shows that you (You figuratively) may only approve of what you like. Boars, Bulls & Rams (Character wise) do not just run around trying to headbutt everything, but get too close & you may find a well placed headbutt that will change your world. I like headbutts, so I suggest you learn to use it correctly & well before trying to plant one. The Burmese Bando Boxing Bama Lethwei & Bull/Boar systems in Bando also train Headbutt *defenses* that also work quite well, they do not just crank back & BUTT, they also look to defend headbutts. Look into Bando, Dirty Boxing, or what have you (Hell even the Dirty Dozen movie shows a quite effective helmeted headbutt) so if you do not like or agree with headbutts, no-one is making you use them. BEWARE those who have looked well into the use of headbutts.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 16, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The human brain has no padding inside the skull, and there is almost no subcutaneous fat layer between the skin and the skull. In other words, when you drive your skull forward and it abruptly stops, it is very much like being punched in the head with that same amount of force, or being thrown onto the dashboard or steering wheel of a car in an accident. Concussion, permanent brain injury, and death are real and serious threats to the person administering the headbutt.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussion
> 
> I think I would consider it only as a last resort.


 

I have to disagree. If you're using your head correctly, you should only be striking certain points of the head, and you should be following through. The correct targets give much easier than the thickest part of the head. Follow through also keeps the brain from being rocked by the skull stopping too fast. If you're doing the headbutt right, it shouldn't cause you damage.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 16, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> I have to disagree. If you're using your head correctly, you should only be striking certain points of the head, and you should be following through. The correct targets give much easier than the thickest part of the head. Follow through also keeps the brain from being rocked by the skull stopping too fast. If you're doing the headbutt right, it shouldn't cause you damage.



I broke a toe on a rib recently.  I suspect that it would take a degree more control than I have to successfully engage my skull as a blunt instrument against another blunt instrument.  Perhaps you have that skill - I cannot say.  I know I do not, and hence, it would be a very poor choice for me to use except in the gravest extreme.

In any case, I use my toe wrong, and I get a broken toe.  Use your head wrong, and what do you get?  Seems a tad on the risky side to me.


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## David Weatherly (Feb 16, 2009)

Not high on my list of tools to use I'll admit but they are a nasty and effective surprise when used at the right time.


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## Jimi (Feb 16, 2009)

A fight is risky business all around isn't it? You throw a punch wrong & you can break your hand (Or the bones with-in or the wrist) Throw a kick wrong & you can break a toe, your shin or your ankle. Do a hip throw wrong & you can throw out your back or blow out your knees. It is all a dice roll when you boil it right down. When we look at natural body weapons employed by man for a few thousand years for survival, we see common body weapons, & up close a headbutt is a great ally (And has been for a long time). I am not discounting your opinion Bill, I hope you see I am saying that as a last resort, this may very well be where it came from. That (Oh $#*^) moment when the last thing you try (Maybe A Headbutt) CAN help. Some of us embrace the risk of head trauma for the use of the Headbutt if it gives us a fighting chance, much like a boxer embraces the risk of injuring his right hand for his preferred use of it. I understand your concern about impact to the head being serious issue (I am not taking away from that). For those who do train to understand the insights of Headbutting (like even a bare-knuckle punch is risky) they have weighed the risk. To some of us, we do not see that it is more common that the one performing a Headbutt will injure himself rather than an opponent or assailant. Most Headbutt hurt the other guy unless done dreadfully incorrectly. I do agree a Headbutt is not the highest of skill & cultivation, It is quite brutal, And that is exactly why some of us embrace it so. PEACE JIMI


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 16, 2009)

To me, the use of a head butt in self-defense is a matter of opportunity, not necessarily something you can set up for. One can throw a number of punches and strikes in a short time, but I've never heard of a flurry of head butts.

I believe a head butt should be a quick forward thrust with the top of head where my hairline used to be. I've seen people "practise" head butting by tilting their own heads backward. If the bad guy sees it coming, he only has to bow his head and lean in, the head butter will drive his own face into the other guy's skull.

I like the old school term's for head butt: "Liverpool kiss," "Glasgow kiss," etc. My teacher used to say, "Just give him a kiss." It's quick and somewhat subtle and spontaneous. I think if one engages in conflict planning to use a headbutt, it probably won't work.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 16, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> To me, the use of a head butt in self-defense is a matter of opportunity, not necessarily something you can set up for. One can throw a number of punches and strikes in a short time, but I've never heard of a flurry of head butts.
> 
> I believe a head butt should be a quick forward thrust with the top of head where my hairline used to be. I've seen people "practise" head butting by tilting their own heads backward. If the bad guy sees it coming, he only has to bow his head and lean in, the head butter will drive his own face into the other guy's skull.
> 
> I like the old school term's for head butt: "Liverpool kiss," "Glasgow kiss," etc. My teacher used to say, "Just give him a kiss." It's quick and somewhat subtle and spontaneous. I think if one engages in conflict planning to use a headbutt, it probably won't work.


 
It's too soon to rep you again, but I just had to express my gratitude for the laugh you gave me at the mental image of a "flurry of head butts".


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## chav buster (Feb 17, 2009)

a few technical points with head butting 
1,  make sure your eye level is lower then your oponents.
2, you should think of your head as a third arm in reserve for when your arms are busy.
3, throw your body weight forward before your head to get maximum power.
4, the best instant to use butts is when your in your oponants guard, get double biceps and start mashing his face in.
5,get a good grip on your oponant( underhooks over hooks lapel ect) to add extra power by pulling him into it and limit his ability to counter evade.
6, a small hop into the but will add alot of power but must be timed right.


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 17, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I broke a toe on a rib recently. I suspect that it would take a degree more control than I have to successfully engage my skull as a blunt instrument against another blunt instrument. Perhaps you have that skill - I cannot say. I know I do not, and hence, it would be a very poor choice for me to use except in the gravest extreme.
> 
> In any case, I use my toe wrong, and I get a broken toe. Use your head wrong, and what do you get? Seems a tad on the risky side to me.


 
Honestly, it doesn't take much skill at all. 

My headbutt rules:

1. For the most part, stick to close range use.
2. Attack for the most part from an angle.
3. Targets: nose, orbitals, ears, bend of the jaw
4. Use your hand to stabilize the other person's head when you can.
5. Always follow up.


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 17, 2009)

Josh Oakley said:


> Honestly, it doesn't take much skill at all.



Couldn't agree more. If you've spent 20 years on a mountain with a monk mastering the headbutt, well...

I watched a bartender, an old friend actually, escort a quite violent patron out of a bar. My future wife and I were sitting at the window counter as it happened. The guy started swinging, and I leaned over the missus and said, "Ian's gonna give him a kiss."


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