# Is Tae Kwon Do useful



## noonesfool

I signed up 2 months ago for Tae Kwon Do and I'm starting to doubt it's usefulness.
I signed up for self defense purposes and I'm not impressed with it so far.
I've learned some kicks but they are useless against a close attack and less effective for actual defense.
I'm not into sparring at all since they love tap you and does'nt mirror real agression.
The instructor lied to me and said it was "self defense" so can anyone point me to a art for slef defense.
I signed up for Ying Jow Pai Kung Fu and it seems more into actually defending yourself.
I've been there one month and I used some moves on a red belt and they could not counter them effectively so I wonder.


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## Mon Mon

I will say this i am happy you found an art that suties you if your still looking for a defensive martial art then i would recomend any martial art that dose not compete in turnaments. The Martial Arts that don't compete in Tournaments Generally are used for Self Defence Alone. But it really depends on what your looking for.


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## jfarnsworth

If your looking for practical self defense knowledge you'll have to look else where. If you want to learn to kick and very well then TKD is for you.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

I'm sorry Taekwondo couldn't help you to find your path. I believe that you need to do all types of sparring. Whether its full-contact, light-contact... which ever. I believe they all have individual qualities to be gained no matter what your goals are.


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## arnisador

Many TKD schools, esp. in the U.S., are very sports-oriented and may not be as good for self-defense as one might hope. This isn't true of all of them! I agree however that if you've found something good for you, that's great! Please post about your Ying Jow Pai Kung Fu experiences in teh Chiese Martial Arts--General forum! There is some discussion of this style (Northern Eagle Claw) there, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1739


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> *I'm sorry Taekwondo couldn't help you to find your path. I believe that you need to do all types of sparring. Whether its full-contact, light-contact... which ever. I believe they all have individual qualities to be gained no matter what your goals are. *



Good point!

The sad part is, TKD can be good, but they caught up in too much protocol, and chain of command that they forget to focus on what the students need, want.:asian:


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## noonesfool

Thank you all for your 2 cents about the situation but I believe my Master stinks period.
I'm sure Tae Kwon is a great art but it was misrepresented to me from the start.
My master does'nt care about the student since he has a contract that he uses to lock you in for 1 year.
I just got promoted in Tae Kwon but I was not taught the basics by the master to pass.
He assigned a black belt to teach me the tenants of Tae Kwon and the counting system in Korean and he got frustrated and told me to fake it because he did'nt know himself.
I told the master and he shrugged it off and said look online.
I taught myself and when I passed I told him off some..
The students from the other schools knew the game but I was the only one from my school and I was behind.
What is a real dojang and master supposed to be like?
I was given a 20 minute class once and then told to go home because I did'nt need to know anymore.


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## karatekid1975

noonesfool,

I feel for you. I'm also at a McDojang. I'm sure there is great TKD schools out there, but they are few and far between these days. 

I just got back from visiting home and my original dojang (Tang Soo Do). I had the best workout there since I left a year ago. This TKD dojang doesn't even compare to my TSD dojang. I forgot how hard it was there (TSD). The workouts are intense, the self defense is realistic, even the sparring has take-downs ...... I could go on, but I would make this dojang (TKD) look really bad. 

I know some TKD dojangs do teach self defense, but what I learned here (TKD) is, in my opinion, not realistic.

You just have to find a REAL TKD dojang. Not a "sport" one. Since you know now what to look for, ask questions ..... a lot of questions. If the instructor is not willing to answer or won't let you watch classes, get the hell out. Go find someone who will.


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## J-kid

Some TKD kicks are ok but most TKD schools suck ,  Alot of tkd schools are labeled mcdojo Meaning belt factorys where you really dont learn much in self defense.  On the plus side i know someone who has crosstrained and using alot of TKD kicks effectivly ,  There punchs are crap and alot of fancy kicks suck and they have no grappling skills (AHHH )  You should never sign a contract, You can take them to court to take the contract off just say they promosed Street effective fighting skills and tricked you if you want out of the contract.   If you wanna train for real fighting i can give you a list of good arts that arnt over hard to learn yet offer real street skills.  I am not saying that all tkd places suck but alot of them seem to.  Here is my list

Sambo They dont use choked but good leg locks.
Savate Kick boxing but it is becoming harder and harder to find a good school thats not messed up with karate conseps (sorry the 2 dont mix)
Judo  Has alot of good throws but you have to find right school.
BJJ(Brazilin jujutsu)  Hard to use multiple oppenents on street.
R.O.S.S its kind of Questionable but yeah why not.
Hapkido its not bad but has its ups and downs like having no hooks for one.
Kickboxing has alot of push punchs
MTkickboxing adds alot of elbows and has a powerful KICK called the MT round house is very devastating kick.
JKD some of the traping concepts are arnt so great but has some great moves and works with some boxing and kicking.
eskrimer i like a good stick fighting art and has some useful hand traping and punching ideas.
Kung fu lets just say fight like a MAN DAMMIT! go with bruce lees version JKD
Kenpo well its ok it has its ups and downs its upgraded i will give you that but still needs alot of work to make it worth much.
Karate the only karate i have heard good things about is Kyokushin Karate  they do alot of bare knuckle sparring but thats all the good karate ive heard of.
Boxing has alot of the best hand technecs out there cross train that with a good kicking and grappling art and you will be a top fighter.
Wrestling really good for take downs and pins works well with strikes there are branchs of wrestling just like all arts.
Very few tkd places but you must do super cross training to make it worth much.

This is my veiws on these arts. Other things i think Chambering punchs, that sucks, because it leaves your face open and you will be rocked or knocked out.  Most blocks are to weak and slow to stop punchs,  Horse stance is not a fighting stance and was designed for fighting on boats and wont work in real fights on land.  A real fact humans are natural grapplers with the ablity to strike we come from Primates and are designed for gripping trees and so forth  making it easyer for use to grapple now if we where horses and had houlves then striking would be better for use as humans. somthing else i think if you dont train for the three ranges of fighting you will never get any where the three ranges are Long distance Sort distance and up close.  You need to know Good kicks for long distance.  Then when you get closer you need to know good hand technecs and elbows knees etc.  then closer you need to know good throws/takedowns then submissions and groundwork.  With out all aspects of fighting everything from the basic kick to a head butt or a throw a fighter is incomplet and can not call them selves ready for anything .  If you really want real self defense for the streets buy a gun.  And the only reason you point it is to shoot.(guns arnt toys)   Another thing wal on the topic of giving you some intresting facts there are alot of myths in martial arts everything from stoping bullets with teeth to killing somthing with a open palm to the nose they are mostly lyes.  There is so much to learn about martial arts yet so little time some things work better then others.  a way to look at it is every martial art is a tool and some tools are better for diffrent jobs like you wouldnt use a hammer to screw in a bolt.  If you have any questions for me send me a message i will answer all questions to the best of my knowledege.  One last thing i forgot to tell you, If your school is charging you more then 25$ a belt test and Your being promoted every three weeks it seems leave the school they just want your money there are many scams and they will try brain washing you.  Go to this site WWW.mcdojo.COM I hope that i have been helpful Best of luck to your training.


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## jfarnsworth

You seem to have done a lot of research here. What you typed up here based on personal trial and error in each art or opinion based upon reading and research? I'm interested in your response.


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## MountainSage

Judo-kid,
We must be long lost brother! Your post mirrored what I would have wrote.  I am a 5th grade,blue belt, in TKD and see many of the problems with TKD.  Each TKD school has good points and bad points.  My school stresses MA concepts for daily life, e.g. how to move more effectly in work and play, stress management, etc.  There is some self- defense, but it is pretty lame, yet the art was never sold to me as a self defense art.  I wanted to get back into a shape other than round.  I now see the value of adding a grappling art to any striking art.  Remember nothing scares the hell out of a person more than someone crash their person space.  If you can get in really close, an attacker will get really far from you.

Mountainsage


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## J-kid

Well take it as you want, my post was just my 2 cents.


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## noonesfool

It's a shame to find this out now since I knew nothing when I signed up.
Mcdojang is right since no one cares about the student just the money.
Well I needlessly got charged $50 for a stripe test and that goes to the school.
The vast majority of schools in my area want some sort of contract except the Kung Fu I found.
I took a liking to the Kung Fu because it has a good self defense class every week and no test fees.
I do have a gun for personal defense of my home but when I go to work and school the gun is prohibited.
I often ride public trans to school so your left open and I have been robbed.
You can thank our society for the reduced rights of gun owners so all I have left is my body.
This kung fu class also has a structured kick boxing curriculum again once a week.
My choice of martial arts in my area is weak and not alot of schools that offer different diciplines.
There is about 30 taekwondo schools and a handful of stuff like Karate and 1 Kenpo.
Everyone will do some sort of Martial Arts if the gun is outlawed like in Okinawa way back when.


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## white belt

ALL martial arts have their McDojos/Jangs.  The blocks taught in hyung/kata are not useable until the real application is shared.  McDoJangs don't understand real applications and the student realizes they are meat, w/o real knowledge, before long.  I trained at a MMA club on nights off from TKD for sometime.  A guy was passing himself off as a former lightweight world contender in boxing.  His gig was to share hand skills to the group.  A few of us smelled a rat and investigated his record.  He was a former amateur boxer who fit someone elses profile.  He thought he could cash in and be a big shot.  He started believing his own stories and fought a pro MMA bout at a large civic center.  He was SEVERELY knocked out, before the one minute mark, and was taken to the hospital.  He left town WHEN he could walk again.  THEY ARE EVERYWHERE.  Kung Fu has Dim Mak (death touch).  How many Kung Fu instructors have used it and PROVEN it works (killed) as opposed to the number who teach it?  I, as a sincere TKD man, apologize for Instructor Numb**ts treatment of you and am glad you found happiness elsewhere.  If he continues, his hand will play out too.  I have students coming to me from such places who are sorry they did not look me up in the first place.  When I hear this kind of thing, I can't help but wonder how many have had your experience and are now categorizing my Do Jang based on such crap.  You are better off.  Best of luck in your studies!

white belt


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## karatekid1975

I totally agree with you, white belt. If I was at your dojang, I'd more than likely be happy. 

It's a shame that there is so many McDojangs out there that are making TKD look bad (I'm at one .... I should know). I know TKD is a good art, but there are so many McDojangs out there that don't care. They are in it for the "buck." It makes me want to go back to my TSD dojang, but I can't (being 300 miles away). 

I wish I could go and change this (my TKD) dojang to what I heard it was .... tuff! It was'nt easy to pass any grade. Now it's cake. It's a total waste of a good art


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## noonesfool

Nice talking with all you people about Mcdojang but like with everything else buyer beware.
I've never heard of Dim Mak and the instructor never mentioned it to us.
I would be suspicious if he did now trying to pawn off a mythical tactic as a practice.
It's kind of like that dude that was on stern claiming to give women orgasms by just touching them.
Mcdojang serves fastfu you don't know what it is but it sure looks good until you just realize what you bought.


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## cali_tkdbruin

Please remember this, any martial art is better than no martial art.  

I'm so proud and happy that I've chosen the art and way of life of the Korean martial art of Taekwondo. It has become my total way of life. It is the best decision that I have ever made... :asian:


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## noonesfool

I'm glad you found something that you like....
I was'nt saying that the art was bad but the guy who was teaching me was crap..
I hate to say it but now I have a bad impression of instructors until they prove themselves worthy of the title they flaunt.
If I just wanted to know it for fun then thats different but I want to hurt those that would hurt me..
Some of the moves if you land them right would kill someone but lack the flexibility of a real life encounter.
I don't want to kill anyone and the KungFu is teaching me how to take them down and neutralize the situation before it gets that far.
It's a shame that we must think like this but the cops do not care enough to even showup in my town.
I got robbed and they said oh well it was only stuff and did'nt really file a report.
Good luck on your quest for whatever you seek also the kung fu seems more spiritual in practice and thats something else that I needed.
Best Wishes


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## the_kicking_fiend

Tae Kwon Do is as useful as the practioner is skilled.  Someone who is unflexible will not fit it with the art form for obvious reasons.  But In self defence I have used even the most extravagent Tae Kwon Do techniques to great effect.  In a street fight I've used jumping back kick to utterly wind an opponent then while he's stunned and clutching himself gone into a 360 turning kick to blow him down the ground round his chin.

I'm not saying I recommend using such outlandish techniques but they *do* work in the suitable siuation and for every other situation there's often a much simpler technique like a knee breaker, an arm lock or a simple uppercut.

The martial art is never to blame for a poorly skilled student.

At the same time though I support that different martial arts suit different individuals better.

your fiendly fiend,
D


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## fissure

noonesfool , welcome to the ever deteriorating world of commercial Martial Arts. Reading through this thread brings to mind many problems discussed all over this board. Many here have at one time or another experienced what you are going through.
I would suggest you try to find a small "club" instead of a commercially run MA business. Often Karate/TKD/ect clubs are run out of local high schools,youth centers,rec. centers,ect.
When the money aspect is removed from the equation, the quality of the operation as a whole increases. If the instructor isn't making a living from the school then he can teach the same way they did in the 70's and 80's. I remember disruptive students being thrown out of the Shotokan club I used to belong to. Take my word for it this NEVER happens at commercial dojang/dojo!


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## TkdWarrior

doh dude u teacher sounded like crap 
goood u left him behind... 
BTW TKD is soooooooooooo darn tough that not much ppl can master  

well when anyone talks about Self Defense oriented then normally i wonder wat kind of self defense they want?wat u think is good self defense...?mind sharing with me(the person who started this thread, sorry for my ignorane  )...

-TkdWarrior-


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## Hollywood1340

Okay, I've been quiet but this does it. Please not what follows are my opinions and what I've gleamed from my training in TKD. I make no excuses or apologies.

TKD is a sport ladies and gentleman. Has been from it's first naming as the Tae Kwon Do (And not by "The General" incidently). In Korea they practice in t-shirts and shorts, like we would basketball. Now I know there are exceptions, and I'll grant them, but this is what the majority of TKD is. TSD, HKD and the like were arts first, then sports. Know what your getting into when you enter a martial art. Understand what TKD in America is. I'm a Taekata myself that has fallen from the fold. It was my gateway drug and I loved it, but I've moved on into more "Self Defense" oriented arts. My TKD instructor is still my instructor. Lately I've been eying my dobak as turning lights on and off with my feet is getting harder. I've not kicked above my solar plex in class in over a month. But I want my high kicking sport oriented modern martial art. So I'm thinking I'll go back.


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## noonesfool

I was'nt aware there were so many bad instructors/dojangs.
As I said I don't blame the art just the person that lied to sell a product.
I was doing very well at the art in general and was making progress rapidly.
The "master"saw that and did'nt like it so he was like just do this and I'll charge you more money for a test.
It went from them showing me alot of stuff to just what was required to pass a test.
I started with a good instructor that was great and he left so kids started taking over classes.
I saw the problem after I went to the first test and scratched my head.
People that had no coordination were passing and some of the black belts were crappy and did'nt know alot of stuff they should.
The owner of the school is Korean and supposedly a grandmaster so we know he sold out for $$$.
I tested a dude at sparring witha few kung fu moves and he just looked at me and could'nt counter them.
He was one stripe away from black so I figured he should know enough.
He just said I was trying to make him look bad but in fact I wanted to see what he was being taught.
He was more frustrated than I about it because he realized he should know a bit more.
I asked what the patterns were for that we practiced and they said to pass a belt test.
To TkdWarrior in my opinion good defense is the ability to maintain control of a situation.
Criminals expect you to be scared and not fight back at all and they do not expect that you will.
Criminals in many cases are bullies and are not tough and do not want to fight you.
Criminals believe they are tough and think that they are powerful.
Why not mess with their psychology some by just making them look like the weak fools they are.
Sometimes damage to the ego is more powerful than damage to the body.
Good defense is being able to keep control and choose the level of agression.
If a person grabs you while trying to rob you chances are a good lock and throw will scare the criminal away.
If he comes back for more then you move up a notch from pain to sprain and so on.
If you knock them out from the get go then chances are they have not learned from the situation.
Criminals have one intention that is to intimidate and rob you of your dignity and personal goods so just take their dignity and they will cower.
I feel if I blatantly beat them with everything I have than I am in a way no better than them.
Another thing chances are these types of people don't have medical insurance so a hospital bill would cost tax payers money.


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## MountainSage

Noonesfool and others,
Never assume that any attacker is nothing less than a combination of Navy seal, MMA champion, and the devil himself.  You have only a few seconds to assess the attacker and it is better to believe the worst case and have it not be true than to believe the opposite.  In this day and age, we are more likely to be confronted by drug addicts, crazyies, and gangbangers, these people are not the common robbers of the past.  All of your post have been great and show that there are some excellent teacher and martial artist out there today, inspite of the McDoJang.  To put a answer to the original question, Is TKD useful?  It is as useful as you want it to be, But more knowledge and skills is never a bad thing in moderation.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> .......If a person grabs you while trying to rob you chances are a good lock and throw will scare the criminal away.
> 
> If he comes back for more then you move up a notch from pain to sprain and so on.
> 
> If you knock them out from the get go then chances are they have not learned from the situation.
> 
> Criminals have one intention that is to intimidate and rob you of your dignity and personal goods so just take their dignity and they will cower.
> 
> I feel if I blatantly beat them with everything I have than I am in a way no better than them.
> 
> Another thing chances are these types of people don't have medical insurance so a hospital bill would cost tax payers money.


If this is how you practice self defence, I sincerely hope you never have to confront anyone other than your newspaper delivery boy.

You gonna end up on the floor with your teeth spilling all over the place. And that is if you are lucky.

A grandmaster may have the ability to manage the escalation of use of force effectively.  Please don't assume you have such capability to assess threat level that precisely.

Fighting as in self defence is as real and dangerous as it gets. If you can't avoid the confrontation, then your ONLY choice is to end the fight decisively ASAP !!  You play around and you will end up dead!!


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## white belt

Ken is very accurate, noonesfool.  I teach and practice eyes, trachea, carotid, temple, ear cavity, etc. for hands. Inside of the thigh, groin, knees, kidneys, etc. with hard shoe tip and sole.  I am a TKD Instructor.  Do we do WTF sport sparring?  You bet.  It is a humane way, besides the above light/no contact drills, to sharpen your timing and coordination.  To underscore Ken's point, how easy is it to choose a gradient of force between light respectful contact and knockout/life threatening power?  It is usually only one or the other.  It is very hard otherwise, with a moving target.  The Grandmaster or Master level is where I too would expect to see this ability concerning strikes.  Joint control is a little easier to have useable gradients for the street, but you better know your stuff.  It is best to use a strike before the lock or throw is attempted also.  I have two such encounters come to mind where someone tried to restrain me with a less than debilitating hold or throw.  I exploded free and knocked them both out HARD.  If they used more pressure/conviction, the outcome would have been questionable.  Better judged by twelve than carried by six.  Be nice to your training partners, slam the urine out of someone who wants your health.  If your Kung Fu Instructor does a 180 on what we are saying, I would do verification on this Forum with a poll.  It doesn't mean he (your Instructor) would be dishonest, but not all Instuctors have had life/health threatening baptisms of fire to use as a reference.  The less reference, the harder to see beyond assumption.  You sound like a very good person with the best of intentions from your posts and I really admire that.   There are some very skillful, knowledgeable, honest people who frequent this Forum.  Good luck w/your new Instructor and school!

white belt


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## Marginal

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> *I tested a dude at sparring witha few kung fu moves and he just looked at me and could'nt counter them.
> He was one stripe away from black so I figured he should know enough.
> He just said I was trying to make him look bad but in fact I wanted to see what he was being taught.
> He was more frustrated than I about it because he realized he should know a bit more.
> *



It also helps to remember that any MA's going to be a rather physical experience. What you put into it may not be what someone else does. They have to be able to apply what they know as well as know it. Some bring that together sooner than others from what I've seen.


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## Sanddragon

To Noonesfool,
Please remember that your best weapon is your brain.
You have been given many good responses here and a bit of bad advice and opinions on different styles. Many of us have been thru your situation with a bad school and though it sucks, remember you have learned something about certain schools and an art. Take that and keep moving forward like you are doing.

As others here have said learn what you can, research what you can about all the arts available in your area and find one that suits you and where you are comfortable with both the school and the instructor. You will find your place in the art and that is what is important.

As for your original question, yes TKD is a very useful art and does have it's place. There is no one superior martial art, but something to learn from all. All that said remember also to train hard but to have fun and not take yourself to seriously in what you do. :asian:


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## karatekid1975

Sand,

I think I will take your advice, too. I'm at a McDojang and stuck in a contract. But from what you said, I can make the best of it. Train hard. Thanks


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## noonesfool

We all have our paths in life and again to those that had useful information nice talking to you.
Kenneth Ku that is a nice vision but that is exactly what I am being taught how to apply the right amount and strategy for everything.
We do 2 man and alot of the stuff is extremely painful thats why you sign a waiver.
If I go into every situation thinking the worst then that is against the purpose of the teachings.
Pumping yourself up worrying causes you to lose focus and then the conflict.
I have been meditating for 10 years and I can do some pretty amazing things with my body and my mind.
The main focus of everything I'm being taught is too keep control and focus.
If you start to fight with your attacker chances are he is more scared than you are because you have just destroyed his strategy.
Everything else from there is your strategy because he is trying to get his back.
By your attacker being unfocused you have the edge on the situation.
Too me Martial Arts is more than kick and punch.....
I apply myself 100% to every move and I keep doing the move until I understand it not just know it.
If you understand your move then you need not think about it too much and you can feel the difference in force being applied.


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## DWright

Okay, here is my take on the self defense aspects of TKD.  Please realize that Modern Arnis is my primary art, and I started TKD on a bet.   

For real "personal self defense" you have to use your hands!
Look at police training, 40 hours of basic hand to hand training at the recruit level, not one kick is thrown.  Why, because when you take one foot off the floor, you only have left.  Makes for lousy balance.  

As a fairly new student to TKD, but a long time student of Martial Art, I have stayed in the classes for the overall physical conditioning.  I have lost 25 pounds since starting.  The classes are grueling.  I have more flexibility then I have in years, and my feet are finally reaching the target with speed and power.  The main benefit that TKD has given me is endurance.  And I feel that this is crucial in any confrontation.  If necessary I can RUN, and keep going.

I was told by my first Sensei:  There is someone out there that is bigger, stronger, faster, and better trained.  Don't be afraid to run.

Just my opinions.:asian:


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## KennethKu

COPS are not allowed to kick people !! They are not allowed to punch you in the solar plexus.  That is why they don't train to do those!    COPS train to restrain you, NOT to KO you. That is the law, assuming you are in the US.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> .......Kenneth Ku that is a nice vision .....
> 
> ....If I go into every situation thinking the worst then that is against the purpose of the teachings..........I have been meditating for 10 years and I can do some pretty amazing things with my body and my mind.........
> 
> ......If you start to fight with your attacker chances are he is more scared than you are because you have just destroyed his strategy.......Everything else from there is your strategy because he is trying to get his back.  By your attacker being unfocused you have the edge on the situation.
> Too me Martial Arts is more than kick and punch.....
> I apply myself 100% to every move and I keep doing the move until I understand it not just know it.
> If you understand your move then you need not think about it too much and you can feel the difference in force being applied.



First of, assuming you are not being sarcastic there, that is not a vision at all, and certainly not one of mine.  What I stated  is simple reality.

Real confrontation is basically a sudden out burst of extreme violence.  There is no time for strategy and focus and whatever rebalancing.

I am sorry but I don't think you realize the seriousness of confrontation.  I have witnessed well trained men gone down because they were not prepared for the worst. What happened was, the attacker opened up on the guy with a blast of left and right hooks in split second!  The guy got hit so many times in a second, he didn't have a chance to respond.  So, good luck with your step by step escalation of use of force.

You have to be prepared for the worst. Eternal vigilance is the only key to avoid being surprised.


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## white belt

Ken,

I thought that was a state or local level decision.  You are saying there are Federal guidelines on this?  Enlighten me.  I was under the impression that appropriate levels of force dictated response.  Why then do they carry a billy club?  If a cop gets slugged, then a strike back to setup a deescalation restraint may be used in practicality.  Have we really neutered our law enforcement as bad as you claim?

Concerning the posts earlier questioning using kicks for self defense.  There are good times to kick and bad times to kick.  There are practicaL kicks and impractical.  There are good kickers and poor kickers.  It's not so easy to generalize.  I have used kicks in real fights to devastating effect.  The sole and toe of a shoe is like swinging the back (blunt) side of an axe when used properly.  The shins, knees, femoral artery tract, iiotibial band, testicles, perineum, bladder, navel, kidneys, solar plexus, etc. are little match for the common shoe tip.  Usually, if they are hit solidly, they either go down or through the reflex response bend forward bringing their head to solar plexus or groin level.  I don't need to point out their vulnerability at that point.  A glancing blow is painful enough to have them back off and reconsider.  I experienced that first hand too on a guy that I knew if he grabbed me, I was severely outweighed and then would really have a mortal situation to deal with.  He grimaced, paused and hobbled away cussing at me.  If you don't kick very well, then by all means go with your strengths.  Mr. Lee comes to mind with that bit of common sense.

Good training to all and Happy New Year!!!
white belt


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## KennethKu

WhiteBelt, You are of course correct.  Law enforcement is state and local authority.  There is no fedearl statue prohibiting such tactic,  (may be other than this thing called Civil Rights).  Rather it is internal practice.

I was informed that, as a rule, police are not allowed to kick people, nor punch you in the solar plexus or get into a fistfight. Police train to restrain b/c any other technique that leave bruises (or injury) are bad for business. The creep can always lie about being abused and he has the bruises (or injury)  to prove it and the Cops always lose in such case. There is a grey area involving injury sustained while resisting arrest.  Which reminds me of the scene in RoboCop (forgot which one) where the creep asked  "How can I help you, officer?" Robocop answered,' By resisting arrest."  

As for using a Billyclub,  just like in WTF, you can kick someone's brain out but you can't punch him in the face. lol  Same logic huh?


----------



## DWright

Kennethku-

Having spent many years as a street cop I find your reply interesting.  I wish things could be so easily explained.  

Officers are allowed to punch and kick when nesseccary.  I personally have thrown a well placed side kick while in uniform, and have used an asp, flashlight, and a clipboard as a striking tool.  None of those incidents brought on civil rights claims, or excessive force charges.  All were justified uses of force.

As for punching, we were taught not to aim for the solor plexes, because it is too easy for someone to tighten the abs.  And most drunks won't feel the pain until the next day.

Leg sweeps are still commenly taught, because it is an easy way to take someone to the ground for cuffing. (If the need arises.)

Martial Arts training is invaluable to the street officer.  It provides skills that the department cannot afford to.  And it keeps the officers physically fit.  Nothing worse than an out of shape cop.


----------



## white belt

Well, the kicking the head / punching the body premise is to ensure proper leg skill development, as well as hands.  Much like the no kicking rule in Judo enforces their particular attributes development / focus.  The billy club, instead of punching, would be to have an edge on a knife wielding or bare handed assailant, etc.  Not to improve their clubbing attributes over kicks and punches.  Of course, you already are well aware of these things. You are very tricky Mr. Ku.  

white belt


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## KennethKu

@DWright

If you are right, then I stand corrected. My source is a LEO, however. (I wish I can get hold of her right now.)  I don't know whether to attribute the discrepency to variations at different PD.  

As I stated previously, there is a grey area in injury sustained while resisting arrest. I am all for law and order, and I am happy that you are homefree from all the legal BS. 

However, I don't understand what you are saying regarding strike to solar plexus. It is not about feeling the pain on the abs from the punch. It is about striking the nerve center that takes your breath away. You can't breath! And that neutralize you.   You get kick there, it might rupture your diaphragm.  And how many people can realistically tighen their abs to withstand a punch to the solar plexus?   Only if you train HARD for it!!


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## DWright

Kennethku,

I doubt that it is a difference in PDs, as much as in circumstances.
As with any street fight there are not any pre set moves.  My personal experiences "allowed" me to use those techniques.   Take into account the size of both people involved, and the remote area, and I may have been justified in using more force.  (Just speculation on the latter.)

As for a strike to the abs.  My experience with this is first hand.  I watched a Sgt. from a neighboring dept.  try to punch a guy in the solar plexus to get him into the back of a patrol car.  The man was handcuffed (behind his back), but was refusing to get into the patrol car.  He was standing with his back to the open patrol car  door, and had braced himself so he could not be pushed in.  This Sgt.  punched him several times in the solar plexus.  He didn't even flinch.  He had been drinking, and smoking crack.  Guys like that don't feel the pain, and their brain doesn't react like yours or mine.

Only a law enforcement perspective. Drunks and drug users don't respond the same way.   As for your reply about a well placed punch or kick taking your breath away, or causing serious injury, I agree completely.


----------



## dearnis.com

Just a quick second to Dinelle's comments.  We can, and do, use the tool appropriate to the situation; grab, lock, punch, kick, spray, etc.  
You rarely face a larger, stronger opponent under the influence of alcohol, crack, or PCP  on the mat; real world experience with these types can be a real eye-opener.


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## KennethKu

@DWright

 Don't you think you would get into a mess of trouble if you (as a LEO) punch a hand-cuffed suspect in the solar plexus?  You would make headline news these days. 

@Chad

The ability of attackers who are under the influence of substances, to tolerate pain is well documented and well known.  Even shots must be placed to the head or the heart to take them out effectively.  

BTW, guys,

What are you guys' experience on this device?  I know it is a very new tool and not widely adopted yet.   

http://www.taser.com/products/advanced01.html


OC spray is supposed to reduce your air intake to bare life support minimal and its  inflammatory properties  work on all people.  I realize that the earlier models were too weak. The newer versions however,have much higher caspasinoid content. What are your take on this ?

If with barehands,  I would aim to kick out the knees ASAP. (Best bet).  Windpipe and eyes are effective targets but NOT easy to reach.  All in all, it is a situation of clear and present danger. Best avoided at all cost.


----------



## dearnis.com

OC- sometimes yes, sometimes no.  It all depends.  I have seen very mixed results.

Shots to head and heart- which type of shot; firearm or impact?  
Handcuffed does NOT equal controlled!  Granted there are better options than a shot to the solar plexus, and more, um, camera friendly ones...
No experience with the new tasers.  The concept is great.


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## MartialArtist

Yes, every art is useful

You need a better instructor and you need to put more time into your training

You are probably learning the sport style instead of the combat style


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## white belt

Even the sport style of TKD can be somewhat effective, if taught correctly.  Unfortunately even this is being bungled from some examples I have seen.  This too is part of the reason for strings like these.  A decent punch and some decent kicks, w/shoes, can go a long way, mixed with proper targeting.  Been there.

white belt


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## J-kid

Martial artist you know 99% of the worlds tkd is sport and the 1% is your conbat tkd.  I doubt any of them have really heard or seen it befor in there lives.


----------



## white belt

JK,

TKD, Karate, TSD, MMA, Judo, etc. ALL have poor schools and teachers.

Go on Amazon.com and pick up the book titled "Kill or Get Killed" by Colonel Rex Applegate.  He and William Fairbairn started the hand to hand system that became gospel for the U.S. and U.K. military.  Much of their source material came from studying Oriental MA as well as Western wrestling and boxing.  The moves deemed essential for survival draw upon moves in FORMS.  Knee smash to groin, Knife hand to trachea, Eye rip wih thumbs, Palm heel to chin or nose base, etc.  KATA.  We in TKD  call the forms HYUNG, POOMSE or TUL.  TKD is just fine IF the forms are taught properly.  The free sparring develops cordination, speed and timing that enhances self defense.  I have used the tip of my shoe to stop "tough guy wannabes" dead in their tracks.  The kicks with shoes especially are easily potentially deadly when you understand targeting from FORMS.

Pick up that book, by a decorated military combat expert, and don't believe everything you read from the soreheads on the internet.

white belt


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## TkdWarrior

hmm fairburn n applegate rocks
-TkdWarrior-


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## yilisifu

I remember back in the 60's when Taekwondo really WAS an effective martial art.  Training was very rugged and traditional.  The White Horse regiment (a South Korean outfit) in VietNam wore their karate-style uniforms as the uniform of the day and training was a daily ritual which often lasted more than three hours.  The VC and NVA were scared to death of them!

   Sadly, Taekwondo has allowed itself to degenerate into a sport.  I am sorry to hear about noonesfool's problem.


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## fissure

> Sadly, Taekwondo has allowed itself to degenerate into a sport. I am sorry to hear about noonesfool's problem.



A generalization worthy of Judo-Kid himself.
Many schools?yes.All schools?How often does anything apply to everything?


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## white belt

My reply is "SOME" TKD "schools" have degenerated into sport.  SOME Tai Chi is degenerating into sport too with push hands competitions that turn into wrestling.  It's ALL subject to buyer beware!  Tai Chi is a fine art in spite of poorly taught Tai Chi.  You beat me to it Fissure. 

white belt


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## TKDman




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## white belt

TKD Man,

Good one. 

white belt


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## MartialArtist

You are very wise white belt


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## noonesfool

I took sometime and just thought about Tae Kwon and went to a few more classes.I'm sure there are good schools and good people but the goofs made me hate the art.
I just transfered the basic TKD moves into my Kung Fu and the kicks that I learned other than that no love for the art.
My last night was yesterday at TKD and the 3rd dan kicked me in my shoulder for the last time.
I could move faster than he could because sifu emphasized speed and balance over power.
He went to kick me in the unpadded shoulder as usual grabbed his leg came down with an elbow and horse and punch to his balls.
TKD did'nt prepare him for that the second dan falls over when doing turning side kicks.
The master was watching whom I have never seen do a move in 3 months was hollaring minus point illegal excessive move.
More power to you all but these butt clowns ruined it for me.


----------



## jfarnsworth

Good luck on your new journey.


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## white belt

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> *I took sometime and just thought about Tae Kwon and went to a few more classes.I'm sure there are good schools and good people but the goofs made me hate the art.
> I just transfered the basic TKD moves into my Kung Fu and the kicks that I learned other than that no love for the art.
> My last night was yesterday at TKD and the 3rd dan kicked me in my shoulder for the last time.
> I could move faster than he could because sifu emphasized speed and balance over power.
> He went to kick me in the unpadded shoulder as usual grabbed his leg came down with an elbow and horse and punch to his balls.
> TKD did'nt prepare him for that the second dan falls over when doing turning side kicks.
> The master was watching whom I have never seen do a move in 3 months was hollaring minus point illegal excessive move.
> More power to you all but these butt clowns ruined it for me. *



A Second Dan falls over during a turning side kick?  That is NO SECOND DAN!  GET THE HELL OUT OF THAT "SCHOOL"!  I own a TKD school and my Blue Belts do turn side kicks w/o falling over!  Your better off doing frickin' Tae Bo and NTKO!

Good luck noonesfool!
white belt


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## noonesfool

Hey the dude stumbles on a turning sidekick and loses coordination.
It seems everyone at this school is a "dan" or black belt.
I'm instructed by them to raise my leg and shift my hips then deliver the blow which makes it alot more work for me.
The 3rd dan that taught me told me flat out that he is not that good so how can I take up eagle claw and do this also.
The SIFU during kick boxing looked at that and said who showed me that and that it was making it harder for me to learn.
Maybe the move is a turning kick but none the less the dude really sucks.
I destroyed a black belt with basic movements but I kept moving and did'nt stop.
I supposedly have 10 more months on my contract but I'm not paying anymore $60 a month and $50 for a test be it belt or stripe.
I tried getting kicked out by spitting at the grand master when he signed my certificate.
The last night I was there the 18 year old black belt and a 11 year old red belt were performing a mock fight for 5-6 year old whitebelts.
The 18 year old was "master wong" of the shitzu kung fu academy and the red belt was the school name student.
The black belt was asking said red belt just how tough school name here was.
Needless to say the kung fu guy was protrayed as stereo typed quai chang kaine and was really bad.
I found it in poor taste and really ignorant basically saying TKD was unbeatable.
I asked them could I play a kung fu fighter also of master sifus name here and they thought it was funny to mock a local sifu.
The 18 year old was the prize schools tkd artist and I said I was the sifu and I did ying jow pai and the guy said it was chinese for dung.
They were laughing because I was going through the kung fu focus routine and the one dan said man he is a good actor.
He grabbed me and I was supposed to play nice and take my beating he then said ready just like I did with the other guy.
I did the self defense routine thunder and earth and something dragons tail.
The guy got up afterwords and gave me hell for not doing the bs routine.
I then said that the guy I was faking was my teacher and I told them all I quit.
They did'nt know that I was going to the other place.
This is past a mc dojo and never have I seen such useless people pretending to be something.
The school is not affiliated with WTF OR ITF so I can't report them.
I am going to tell my teacher they are slamming his business and making fun of his art to small children.


----------



## white belt

Noonesfool,

What a sorry mess.  That description of their "TKD" you gave was pathetic.  A spinning side kick is required material at green belt and functional at blue belt at my school.  You should be given an honorary Black Belt for withstanding that guy's Horses#+t!

I know this may be out of line, but where is this school?  I'm very curious.

white belt


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## chufeng

> I remember back in the 60's when Taekwondo really WAS an effective martial art. Training was very rugged and traditional. The White Horse regiment (a South Korean outfit) in VietNam wore their karate-style uniforms as the uniform of the day and training was a daily ritual which often lasted more than three hours. The VC and NVA were scared to death of them!
> 
> Sadly, Taekwondo has allowed itself to degenerate into a sport. I am sorry to hear about noonesfool's problem.



Now that is an interesting point...truth is, the South Korean military are still training hard in Tae Kwon Do...the TaeKwonDo that is sold to the American GI is NOT the same...but in one year an American GI can leave Korea with a Black Belt and permission to teach...as long as they send 15% of the proceeds back to Korea...

I've never discounted the effectiveness of TaeKwonDo, when done as it was intended to be done...but show me an American school where that happens (OK...maybe 3% of the schools really teach the art as it was intended)...

Actually my TaeKwonDo teacher was a very good practitioner...just didn't care if I learned anything...promoted me for $15 a pop...(oops that is a half promotion (stripe)) and we never went back over the basic material after each promotion...

!980---I chose to leave the TaeKwonDo I was exposed to...but my teacher was a proponent of the school founded by general Choi...he didn't think much of Hee Il Cho...

:asian:
chufeng


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## noonesfool

White Belt it's in Pa
I'm not interested in getting sued for defamation of anything.
I merely wanted to talk to some people and compare opinions about what TKD is about.
My current sifu is great and I have nothing but the utmost respect for his teaching.
He learned directly from shum leung and displays his lineage on the wall.
I have a TKD book and it says you never belittle another persons art etc.


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## white belt

Noonesfool,

I don't expect the name and phone number!  I know the potential problems inherit.  I like to get a general idea of these places in case a student of mine transfers.  It sounds, from your descriptions, that the shelf life is near it's expiration anyway.   Gets my DoBok in a bunch hearing about someone who really wants to learn good TKD (like you) getting ripped off.  PA., huh?!

Again, Good Luck!
white belt


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## noonesfool

They enter tournaments and supposedly have a few students that competed in the olympics.
At testing the whitebelts from other schools were kind of worse than me.
The only reason I was better was because of kung fu.
A few of the other schools pumped out better people.
Lots of inconsistent training it seemed to me.
If you enter tournaments then you will probably run into them.
I'm thinking about finding another school and do TKD a few days a week just to enter to beat the spit out of them.
I'm not staying in that school or another location because they are not to be trusted.
I'm really thin and flexible so I pick this stuff up fast and execute with little error.
I was promoted after one month in kung fu because he said I was very good just need proper instruction and that I learn fast.


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## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by TKDman _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



TKDman, that's funny. You hit the mark..  
:lol:


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## arnisador

I read in a "Illustrated Dict. of Special Forces" book this evening that all South Korean SF personnel must be TKD black belts--can anyone comment on that? Is it still so?


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## LBB

"It´s not what you train, it´s HOW you train!!"
In the club in which I am instructor we train WTF.We are not exceptionel tournament/olympic style figthers, but we love to train and fight!!We train low kicks,take-downs,sub-mission figthing,street orientated figthing and so on.And off course classic and modern TKD.As said we are not getting a lot of metal, nor in fight or poomse tournaments.In "no-rules" situations though, I think we kick more *** than most danish TKD clubs, and at the same time we are loyal to the art we all love:Taekwondo!!!


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## Langdow

> I read in a "Illustrated Dict. of Special Forces" book this evening that all South Korean SF personnel must be TKD black belts--can anyone comment on that? Is it still so?



Actually it isn't just the SF personel. TKD is actually a class while kids go to school, and they will get their black belt in that class if they choose to take it. Once they've graduated if the don't go to university they must join the army where they WILL get their TKD black belt regardless. 
In south Korea just about everyone has TKD black belt it's no big thing over there


----------



## arnisador

I knew it was widespread but I didn't realize quite how much!


----------



## Infight

well lets go for it:

        BJJ - one-o-one, almost unbeatable, many joints locks and chokes. No use against many
        Sanbo - good leg locks, not good pratice of arm locks or chokes, rather pratice BJJ. NO use against many
        Wrestling - good one to pin ( do you wanna pin your enemy?), has some chokes and locks, but rather BJJ. No use against many
        Muay Thai - Best striking martial art to self defense, good kicks and punchs, as effective usage of Knees and elbows. Hard time against grapplers
        Karate - Could be a good one, but pratice styles like Kyokushin, more combative. almost as good as thai. Hard time against grapplers
        Judo - modern judo is very effective in a one-o-one fight, has good ground work and of course the best on take down. Can be used against many and grapplers, but not as effective as individuals like BJJ and Thai.
        Krav Maga - good strikes, strong and objetive, has some locks too, but its difficult to find a place to pratice. But i still rather to pratice some of striking and ground above.
        Aikido - raise your spirit, thats all. sucks as self defense
        Capoeira - do you like ballet? so do it - sucks as self defense
       Any kind, form, way, type and etc of Kung Fu - just works on movies, this is a Bruce Lee **** ( why americans like so much this skinny chinese guy?). If you want to copy an animal go to zoo and keep there until you screem like some wierd bird.


         Now the best self defense of all:Shooting pratice - has a longe range techniques, as a shot range one, good agains many guys or a lone fight, good against grapplers and strikers, if you hard train, you can kill in one strike. Best technique: .380 and .045 in my humble opinion, they are both light, fast and deadly.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I knew it was widespread but I didn't realize quite how much! *


But there's a difference

Just like someone coming from MIT is viewed higher up than someone from ITT who is still viewed higher than a GED, where you got it plays a big role.

I don't remember TKD being a class in Korea, and yes, I've attended school there.  School is as long as the typical American school day, but then you stay an extra 3-5 hours for extra studying which really shouldn't be called "extra" because everyone has to do it (for HS students).  I attended primary school for 3rd and 4th grade over there, but I don't remember HS students having a TKD class at school.  You would do some KMA (KMA general/yudo/hapkido) but it never was a class.

In Korea, in HS, you don't move from class to class every period like in the US.  You stay put in that classroom and the teachers move.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *well lets go for it:
> 
> BJJ - one-o-one, almost unbeatable, many joints locks and chokes. No use against many
> Sanbo - good leg locks, not good pratice of arm locks or chokes, rather pratice BJJ. NO use against many
> Wrestling - good one to pin ( do you wanna pin your enemy?), has some chokes and locks, but rather BJJ. No use against many
> Muay Thai - Best striking martial art to self defense, good kicks and punchs, as effective usage of Knees and elbows. Hard time against grapplers
> Karate - Could be a good one, but pratice styles like Kyokushin, more combative. almost as good as thai. Hard time against grapplers
> Judo - modern judo is very effective in a one-o-one fight, has good ground work and of course the best on take down. Can be used against many and grapplers, but not as effective as individuals like BJJ and Thai.
> Krav Maga - good strikes, strong and objetive, has some locks too, but its difficult to find a place to pratice. But i still rather to pratice some of striking and ground above.
> Aikido - raise your spirit, thats all. sucks as self defense
> Capoeira - do you like ballet? so do it - sucks as self defense
> Any kind, form, way, type and etc of Kung Fu - just works on movies, this is a Bruce Lee **** ( why americans like so much this skinny chinese guy?). If you want to copy an animal go to zoo and keep there until you screem like some wierd bird.
> 
> 
> Now the best self defense of all:Shooting pratice - has a longe range techniques, as a shot range one, good agains many guys or a lone fight, good against grapplers and strikers, if you hard train, you can kill in one strike. Best technique: .380 and .045 in my humble opinion, they are both light, fast and deadly. *


Your statement shows much of your character:

Not only do you know little about MA and fighting in general, but you know little of firearms also.  Any person with experience knows that arts don't match up, that is one concept you still have to learn.

.380?  You've got to be kidding me.  .045?  You meant .45.  Way to go!


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## Nightingale

1.  get out of the contract... your instructor has already breached it since he didn't deliver the self defense you asked for.

2. find a new school.

3.  talk to the head instructor.  Ask him for a two week evaluation period, and pay for two weeks only.  Don't sign anything other than a liability release form.  You're not looking for private lessons here, just for two weeks of the usual group classes you'd be getting if you were a regular contracted student.   If they want to know why you will only join for two weeks, explain that you got screwed by your last instructor and want to make sure the same thing doesn't happen.  Most reputable instructors will agree to this.  The ones that know they have a shoddy program usually won't agree.  Its a good way to gauge.  A reputable instructor won't be worried taht you're a spy from another school, because good teachers know it takes more than two weeks to learn an art.

best of luck. Personally, I'd recommend kenpo for self defense, but only cause it works very well for me (I've used it on the street and it saved my ***).  I don't have a whole lot of experience with other arts, but I did a lot of research before I took kenpo, and I do have a few years of TKD in there as well. 

I've seen Kenpo guys kick TKD butt... and I've seen TKD guys kick some Kenpo tail around the ring as well.  It has to do with the skill of the individual, the skill of the teacher, and finally, the quality of the art...  TKD is for some people, kenpo is for others. Its a matter of personal preference more than anything else.


----------



## Infight

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Your statement shows much of your character:
> 
> Not only do you know little about MA and fighting in general, but you know little of firearms also.  Any person with experience knows that arts don't match up, that is one concept you still have to learn.
> 
> .380?  You've got to be kidding me.  .045?  You meant .45.  Way to go! *


   LOL, Really? they dont match up? And you say that i just know a little about MA. and youre right its .45. Thats a common talking of a TKD guys, i bet you pratice that. I dont know why that happens, even here in Brazil, they are too jealous of BJJ gyms, with no reasons, cause we just dont care about them.


----------



## phlaw

I am very sorry you were not happy with tae kwon Do, I had a bad experience when I first started Tae Kwon DO in college back in 1992.  The instructor cared about tournaments and trophies and I wanted self defense, I was about to quit when another student recommend another TKD instructor in town.

I am sure glad he did, my current instructor still does tournaments but it is not his main focus, plus he teaches TRADITIONAL Tae Kwon Do and was a student of Grand Master Moo Yong Yun, we also mix in Hapkido, Grappling, Hwa Wrang Do and KumDo Sword fighting.

Good Luck to you!


----------



## celtic bhoy

I have had two itf tkd instructors from different associations. Both of them preached about how the vietcong were terrified of the koreans because of their tkd skills,during the vietnam war. Yet all I have been taught by both of them was patterns and competition sparring. 

I am a 5th kup now and so far the self defense training has been absent from the training syllabus. Surely the koreans didn't spar against the vietcong!


----------



## Zepp

> _Originally posted by celtic bhoy _
> *I have had two itf tkd instructors from different associations. Both of them preached about how the vietcong were terrified of the koreans because of their tkd skills,during the vietnam war. Yet all I have been taught by both of them was patterns and competition sparring.
> 
> I am a 5th kup now and so far the self defense training has been absent from the training syllabus. Surely the koreans didn't spar against the vietcong! *



I was unaware that Korean soldiers were ever in Vietnam.

Have you spoken to your instructors about this?  As far as I know the ITF does have some self-defense drills.  You should ask to learn some.

Then again, there are lots of TKD McDojo's out there.  If you don't think you're getting your money's worth, you shouldn't hesitate to watch some other martial arts classes in your area.

Take a look at the TKD and Hapkido thread in this forum where we've been discussing this kind of thing.


----------



## Disco

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> *I tried getting kicked out by spitting at the grand master when he signed my certificate. *



Nobody else picked up on this? Noonesfool, I/we know your frustrated with this TKD school, but there were other options you could have availed yourself of without lowering yourself to their level. It apparently served no purpose because you were not asked to leave. I assume you were trying to get them to break the contract by throwing you out. You were lucky that you did'nt get yourself in trouble or even hurt with that stunt. I hope that your new instructor and school afford you what you want and I hope they will renew the martial arts tenents, one of which is respect for other's.


:asian:


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## ThuNder_FoOt

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *LOL, Really? they dont match up? And you say that i just know a little about MA. and youre right its .45. Thats a common talking of a TKD guys, i bet you pratice that. I dont know why that happens, even here in Brazil, they are too jealous of BJJ gyms, with no reasons, cause we just dont care about them. *



And are your views not biased towards BJJ gyms?


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I knew it was widespread but I didn't realize quite how much! *


The belts are viewed differently however.

Most kids don't care for TKD nowadays, and a black belt from their school isn't as viewed as highly as if it came from a respected dojang.  Yeah, they might be affiliated with the same organizations, but the instruction is minimal and stripped down at the local school.

I haven't heard of a black belt required by all military personnel, but I do know that Special Forces do have to be black belts.  And they're version of TKD is combat oriented, none of the tag-w/-foot stuff.  Well, combat TKD is basically a more logical and scientific version of TKD, with hapkido, yudo, boxing, and freestyle wrestling.  Emphasis is on striking as in combat, hand-to-hand combat is rare and even so, try grappling when you're carrying a rifle, secondary weapon, knife, etc. when you're in a danger zone.  One thing that is taught in the military is to use all the tools you have.  So if you have a rifle w/ a bayonnet, why not use it as a weapon?  Getting hit by the butt of even a relatively light plastic/polymer/alloy weapons of today can hurt.  But again, it's all hypothetical.  Hand-to-hand fighting is rare.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *LOL, Really? they dont match up? And you say that i just know a little about MA. and youre right its .45. Thats a common talking of a TKD guys, i bet you pratice that. I dont know why that happens, even here in Brazil, they are too jealous of BJJ gyms, with no reasons, cause we just dont care about them. *


Hmmm...  Could it be Brazil has one of the top BJJ schools in the world that nobody can match up to them in Brazil?  Yeah, many schools all around the world should be jealous of some BJJ schools in Brazil, no arguing on that, but open your eyes.

Yeah, I practice TKD, and yeah, I get beat up by BJJ guys so I have to rant here


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by celtic bhoy _
> *I have had two itf tkd instructors from different associations. Both of them preached about how the vietcong were terrified of the koreans because of their tkd skills,during the vietnam war. Yet all I have been taught by both of them was patterns and competition sparring.
> 
> I am a 5th kup now and so far the self defense training has been absent from the training syllabus. Surely the koreans didn't spar against the vietcong! *


Not really.  North Korea, an "ally" if you can call them that with the Communists at the time kinda avoided the situation.  South Korea didn't have that much time to spend on the situation.  The  Koreans that saw action were the Korean-Americans in the US military.

And spar?  No.  When you have bullets whizzing around your head, my first thought wouldn't be helling "kiyap" and getting into a fighting stance.   But then again, I never had bullets whizzing around my head where the gun was aimed at me, so who knows what I might do. :rofl:


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## arnisador

In today's Parade magazine in the newspaper, James Brady discusses the Korean War. Included is a picture of S. Korean troops training at a DMZ outpost. In the foregorund a soldier punches a heavy bag; in the rear, seven soldiers in two lines, wearing fatigues, practice a front kick together.


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *In today's Parade magazine in the newspaper, James Brady discusses the Korean War. Included is a picture of S. Korean troops training at a DMZ outpost. In the foregorund a soldier punches a heavy bag; in the rear, seven soldiers in two lines, wearing fatigues, practice a front kick together. *



I saw that as well. About as hard core as you'll ever see, no doubt! Live, and breath TKD 24-7!

However, I found it interesting that to qualify for U.S. duty there, one has to be proficient in TKD as well? Surely, they would accept others regardless of style, don't you think?


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *However, I found it interesting that to qualify for U.S. duty there, one has to be proficient in TKD as well? *



No, that was for ROK scouts, not U.S. soldiers.


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by noonesfool _
> *I signed up 2 months ago for Tae Kwon Do and I'm starting to doubt it's usefulness.
> I signed up for self defense purposes and I'm not impressed with it so far.
> I've learned some kicks but they are useless against a close attack and less effective for actual defense.
> I'm not into sparring at all since they love tap you and does'nt mirror real agression.
> The instructor lied to me and said it was "self defense" so can anyone point me to a art for slef defense.
> I signed up for Ying Jow Pai Kung Fu and it seems more into actually defending yourself.
> I've been there one month and I used some moves on a red belt and they could not counter them effectively so I wonder. *



I think you may have been involved in a dojo that is more focused on the sparing than the self defence.
TKD is a great art and can be used for self defence, I work in law enforcement and have had to use it a few times.

Another great style for self defence is hapkido and is very similiar to TKD as far as movements and the strikes and blocks.

Good luck in your search:asian:


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## MartialArtist

Well, the US Marines started a martial arts program (which is currently the best the US military has to offer other than that LINES crap or what the elite forces train in).  It isn't some watered-down thing where they only teach techniques and not principles of phsycs/biomechanics/whatever (which are the foundations of all techniques).  One of the people who came up with the idea got the idea from the South Koreans practicing TKD during the Vietnam War.  And it wasn't some high kick demo either.  It actually helped the ROK Marines win the battle of Hoi An.


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## Mithios

I had a job at one time , for 5 years were i had to use my Tae Kwon-Do skills to save my rear a # of times, and i survived very well. If you feel it wont work for you , Then check out other tkd school's. In my opinion it's the instructors fault if he has a curriculum that is lacking in self defense skills Not the system. Maybe the training in this school is going for sport and not self defense. If that is the case then choose another TKD school . There are a lot of different systems of TKD. And thy focus on self defense and they (GASP !!!!!!! ) work a lot of hand tech. too, plus sweeps, throws ,joint controls etc. Hope you find a school for you !!!!!!       MITHIOS


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## Abbax8

My brother was in Vietnam on a Destroyer doing Carrier escort duty. One of the stories he told me was of the South Korean Rangers in Vietnam. When they were being transported on US ships they would sometimes give H2H lessons. My brother was not easily scared or impressed back then or now, but he made it clear NEVER get these guys ticked off.

                                                           Peace
                                                            Dennis


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## angrywhitepajamas

While I have never trained in TKD, I have gone up against people who have cross trained in it.   They are very Scary once they learn to shake off a few punches, and cope with people trying to get in close.  When kicks are done properly you can't see them (at least I can't).  

Aside from that The art that you practice is only as effective as how you train, and examine it.

As my Mother always says, "you make the art an expression of what is inside of you as well as your intentions."


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## hardheadjarhead

I've been in TKD for 27 years of the 30 I've been in the martial arts...and I have to agree that there indeed a lot of schools out there that aren't worth the paper of the contract they get you to sign.  Its downright embarrassing.

Let's look at the art separate from that issue.

TKD has some glaring weaknesses when it comes to self-defense.  The kicks and punches...if drilled properly...can be part of a good stand up game.  There is no ground work, no effective work against weapons, and no work WITH weapons.  Note that I am using absolute statements there.  OF COURSE some of the schools out there have cross training or have enlightened instructors who have addressed those issues.  I think it safe to say most don't.  Thus I use the absolutes for emphasis...it is hyperbole, of course, but intentionally so to make a point.

Is TKD an effective form of self defense, as currently taught in the mainstream?  NO.  Not taken alone.  If one cross trains with other systems, TKD can offer a great deal of value.  I can say the same for Judo, Aikido, and Hapkido...and other arts as well.  I heard it said that no one art has more than 15% of the information that is out there.  That's an overstatement, given the number of arts.  Bottom line...ALL martial artists interested in self defense need to cross train.  Many are.  I go to Modern Arnis seminars and I see Kenpo people and Tae Kwon Do people there.  I go to Sayoc seminars and I see grapplers there.  People are cross training in order to fill in gaps and augment what they already know.  

On another note...

Some call TKD a martial sport, not a martial art.  This is a matter of semantics.  It is a martial art and a martial sport.  Some of us define it as an art, practice it as an art, ergo, it is an art.  Some practice it as a sport.  Get a thread going asking "What is a martial art?" and see the variety of responses you get.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## someguy

Doesn't it all come down to the purpose the teacher trains the students for.
If you have a teacher training people for the olympics would he really teach how to fight for your life.
I suppose it is also how the were trained.


btw tkd is a martial art to me even if it is for sport  or combat or in movies or what ever else.   Think about it isnt it still the martial art just with a differnt reason


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## the_kicking_fiend

you make it what it is and you only get what you give


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## hardheadjarhead

Yes, it does depend on the instructor's emphasis.  I emphasize self defense.  But I also hit on forms for the aesthetic value.  We spar, too...but not Olympic style.  We do hand contact to the head...and the TKD black belts will fight the Jun Fan and Muay Thai and CSW guys.

In nearly thirty years of TKD training and teaching I haven't seen too many instructors teach self defense at a functional level.  Much of what is taught is good for incorporating into one's "bag of tricks" for self defense...but the approaches are lacking.  Some of the stuff taught is just silly.

I could say that for any art, though.  All of them have weak areas.  Cross train, and you come up with some pretty strong stuff.  

People always oppose the arts...they're synergistic...not oppositional.

Regards,

Steve Scott


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## Eldritch Knight

Exactly. I did 7 years of TKD and now I decided to switch arts and learn about a few others. Did a year of kendo, and now I'm trying out kung fu and taido. My TKD training is really helping me with kicks and coordination, but IMHO, kung fu is definetely a better all rounded art for defense (plus the forms look prettier). Point is, though, that I'd never have known that without TKD, and though I'm not the best 2nd dan in TKD, I was better than most at my dojang, and my abilities have given me a good edge over the other white belts. I'd never use TKD, pure and simple, in a fight; especially against a weapon wielder - I'd use a mix of TKD and kung fu. I believe that cross-training is the ONLY way that one can excel at the arts.


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## UncleDuke

Train as an art, compete as a sport, that and Bruce Lee's comment that there is no superior art; only superior practitioners, when I was taught, the emphasis was on 'useful' technique and physical conditioning, with TKD becoming an Olympic sport the emphasis switched to pure tournament technique. I agree that there are too many belt factories out there, it is all about the dollar these days.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Is taekwondo useful?

Sure.  Know what you want out of it.  Then find the school that will deliver.  Ask around and do your research.  Just like you would for any other product.  Nobody buys high end electronics without doing research.  You don't need to be an audio engineer or television tech to be able to effectively find out what's good and what isn't.  Or to find out what will meet your needs and what won't.

Most schools will give you a good overall flavor of the art, so if you aren't sure what you're after, go for a reputable school known for quality training.  At least then you'll get a quality product.  If it turns out to be not quite what you were after, you will at least have a good foundation upon which to build.

Daniel


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## Tez3

Wow, this must get the prize for the oldest thread resurrection, if the OP stuck at it he'd be at least a 3rd Dan by now! It's 8 years old in case someone thought I was being sarky.


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## Daniel Sullivan

It was fermenting.

Daniel


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## terryl965

Like a fine wine and always gets better with age.


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> Like a fine wine  and always gets better with age.


 

"Like a fine wine *and women*  and always gets better with age."


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## Gorilla

Tez3 said:


> Wow, this must get the prize for the oldest thread resurrection, if the OP stuck at it he'd be at least a 3rd Dan by now! It's 8 years old in case someone thought I was being sarky.



Alright I have to ask.  What is Sarky????


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## IcemanSK

Gorilla said:


> Alright I have to ask.  What is Sarky????



I'd be willing to bet she meant "Snarky." But I might be wrong. Might be one of those British terms.:ultracool


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Wow, this must get the prize for the oldest thread resurrection, if the OP stuck at it he'd be at least a 3rd Dan by now! It's 8 years old in case someone thought I was being sarky.



So this is a mcdojang thread?  :angel:


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## Tez3

British term. sarky = _sarc_astic. I don't need to explain more do I lol?


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## terryl965

Tez3 said:


> British term. sarky = _sarc_astic. I don't need to explain more do I lol?


 
YES YES YOU DO and remember some of us have that very high I.Q..:rofl:


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## Tez3

terryl965 said:


> YES YES YOU DO and remember some of us have that very high I.Q..:rofl:


 

Just remember sarky is my middle name :ultracool


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## Gorilla

Tez3 said:


> British term. sarky = _sarc_astic. I don't need to explain more do I lol?



Nope...I have always been fascinated by the divide in our common language.


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## UncleDuke

RCastillo said:


> Good point!
> 
> The sad part is, TKD can be good, but they caught up in too much protocol, and chain of command that they forget to focus on what the students need, want.:asian:


Another problem I see in Taekwondo, perhaps other arts as well is de-emphasis on physical conditioning. I've been looking at photo galleries and a lot of the instructors look like they're headed for the sumo ring. Back in the day (1970's) I remember being at a tournament and hearing a judo instructor say, as he pointed at GM Moo Yong Yun and his students, "karate man, thin like chopstick," nowadays it'd be "wide, like tree stump" I remember being told that a technique wasn't 'yours' until you could do it with no more thought than tieing your shoelaces. That requires training and lots of it. The kind of training that rots a uniform off of you every six months or so. I'm okay with 'family karate' schools but...don't claim you're selling the student a Ferrari when it is in fact a Geo.


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## UncleDuke

noonesfool said:


> Thank you all for your 2 cents about the situation but I believe my Master stinks period.
> I'm sure Tae Kwon is a great art but it was misrepresented to me from the start.
> My master does'nt care about the student since he has a contract that he uses to lock you in for 1 year.
> I just got promoted in Tae Kwon but I was not taught the basics by the master to pass.
> He assigned a black belt to teach me the tenants of Tae Kwon and the counting system in Korean and he got frustrated and told me to fake it because he did'nt know himself.
> I told the master and he shrugged it off and said look online.
> I taught myself and when I passed I told him off some..
> The students from the other schools knew the game but I was the only one from my school and I was behind.
> What is a real dojang and master supposed to be like?
> I was given a 20 minute class once and then told to go home because I did'nt need to know anymore.


Any martial arts school worth attending will NOT tie you to a contract. I paid $30/month, a lifetime ago now and was told by GM Yun that it was two-way street...as long as I tried as hard as I could and gave it my all he would allow me to sign up for another month. I got my money's worth several times over as he led by example, that man had to have had hydraulic assist on his arms, had a standing bet that he could do more pushups than any of us.


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## UncleDuke

KennethKu said:


> If this is how you practice self defence, I sincerely hope you never have to confront anyone other than your newspaper delivery boy.
> 
> You gonna end up on the floor with your teeth spilling all over the place. And that is if you are lucky.
> 
> A grandmaster may have the ability to manage the escalation of use of force effectively.  Please don't assume you have such capability to assess threat level that precisely.
> 
> Fighting as in self defence is as real and dangerous as it gets. If you can't avoid the confrontation, then your ONLY choice is to end the fight decisively ASAP !!  You play around and you will end up dead!!


Worked as a bouncer in a bar catering to oil rig workers and the like in the early '80's. Head bouncer was probably 5'7" and 150 dripping wet. Past master at using chairs, beer pitchers, pool cues and whatever was handy. I tried escalation of force just once. Dropped an out of control patron with a roundhouse to the midsection and he just picked himself up off the floor and told me I'd have to do better than that. Lucky for me that my 5'7" boss clubbed him flat with a chair to the back. If someone wants to rob or hurt you I personally believe that you have to give it your all as you may not get a chance to escalate the level of force used.


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## UncleDuke

DWright said:


> Okay, here is my take on the self defense aspects of TKD.  Please realize that Modern Arnis is my primary art, and I started TKD on a bet.
> 
> For real "personal self defense" you have to use your hands!
> Look at police training, 40 hours of basic hand to hand training at the recruit level, not one kick is thrown.  Why, because when you take one foot off the floor, you only have left.  Makes for lousy balance.
> 
> As a fairly new student to TKD, but a long time student of Martial Art, I have stayed in the classes for the overall physical conditioning.  I have lost 25 pounds since starting.  The classes are grueling.  I have more flexibility then I have in years, and my feet are finally reaching the target with speed and power.  The main benefit that TKD has given me is endurance.  And I feel that this is crucial in any confrontation.  If necessary I can RUN, and keep going.
> 
> I was told by my first Sensei:  There is someone out there that is bigger, stronger, faster, and better trained.  Don't be afraid to run.
> 
> Just my opinions.:asian:


No matter who you are there is someone better, somedays everything is on and the body and mind work together as they should. On other days you have trouble tieing your shoes. Best defense I ever learned is the Nike...run if you can.


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## Gorilla

I find the "is TKD question useful" an often asked question.  Many say no!  I would say that it is useful.  Benny "the Jet" Urquidez states that he has a TKD(1 of 9 black belts) black belt and that back kick and many of his head kicks are if not TKD kicks they are certainly TKD inspired.  Bruce Lee is said to have trained in TKD!  I think that TKD is a strong fighting system if applied correctly by a strong practitioner. 

The first time I had ever seen TKD was in a parking lot outside of a college bar. A Korean Student got in a fight with one of the Local trouble makers he KO'd the guy with one kick. When I saw the guy at college a few days latter I asked him what was that Kung Fu he said TKD.  When my kids started training I remembered that incident I wanted to see if I would recognize that kick when they trained.  It was a spin hook.  One of the most devastating kicks especially if it is used on the Untrained when you have allot of room.  That is the only time I have every seen it used in real life situation.  I think that if you miss with the Kick it is so intimidating that many people would take a step back and reconsider if they want to continue the fight.


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## Gorilla

I find the "is TKD useful" an often asked question.  Many say no!  I would say that it is useful.  Benny "the Jet" Urquidez states that he has a TKD(1 of 9 black belts) black belt and that back kick and many of his head kicks are if not TKD kicks they are certainly TKD inspired.  Bruce Lee is said to have trained in TKD!  I think that TKD is a strong fighting system if applied correctly by a strong practitioner. 

The first time I had ever saw TKD was in a parking lot outside of a college bar(1984). A Korean Student got in a fight with one of the Local trouble makers he KO'd the guy with one kick. When I saw the guy at college a few days latter I asked him what was that Kung Fu he said TKD.  When my son started training(2001) I remembered that incident I wanted to see if I would recognize that kick when they trained.  It was a spin hook.  One of the most devastating kicks especially if it is used on the Untrained when you have allot of room.  That is the only time I have every seen it used in real life situation.  I think that if you miss with the Kick it is so intimidating that many people would take a step back and reconsider if they want to continue the fight.


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## ralphmcpherson

I think the thing I find the most frustrating is when people say "tkd cant work because its just all flashy kicks". Not only is there a lot of kicks that arent 'flashy', there is also a lot of hand techs in tkd also. Its funny you mention the spinning kick because when I was younger I saw a guy I went to school with being bullied by two kids. He just stood there and did a spinning hook kick, he was at least 6 feet from the other two guys and it was in no way intended to connect with them. Having seen the kick, however, the other 2 guys decided they didnt want to fight. I found out later that he had a black belt in tkd and did the kick for some shock value and it obviously worked. I have found that tkd is more than useful providing the practioner learns it with self defence in mind. It has powerful kicks, fast footwork, teaches lightning quick reflexes and fast hand techs as well as incorporating some hapkido style self defence moves and physical fitness and core strength is a big part of the curriculum. Anyone who says its useless either hasnt trained in tkd or trained at a very poor school and its unfair for the art of tkd to get a bad rap because of some bad schools. All martial arts have bad schools out there.


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## terryl965

What I find funny is the term is it useful, well a spoon is useful if you know how to properly use it for self defense. TKD is what you make of it when training and how well you can adapt it into a real life stituation. I know plenty of people that can do all the techs. in the school but when pressure they fold up like a little girl. That is with any martial arts though it is about the person not the art.


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## jthomas1600

I think the only way that TKD is not useful and can in fact be counter productive is if you try to use techniques that you have not mastered yet or are not appropriate for the situation you're in. I have a hard enough time trying to make good contact with a kick pad in the gym doing tornado kicks and spinning hook kicks....these kicks would only serve to put me in bad positions (off balance and with my back to my opponent) on the street. I'm pretty confident though in my round house kicks and side kicks and would definitely use those if the situation called for it. I think a lot comes down to knowing your strengths and weaknesses.


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## wushuguy

I think TKD can be useful if trained well, although there are a number of places that do improper or even harmful training/stretching.

TKD kicks or kicking in general, can be effective depending on the situation. Once while I was in CA, a thug walked up to me threateningly, and wanted to box. I looked at him, pants hanging low, so I know he couldn't dodge or run effectively for risk of dropping his pants completely, so I asked him to hold on a sec, and said if we box if kicking is allowed, and I did a quick crescent kick (I had quit TKD for about a year because I switched to Wing Chun, but I still retained the flexibility and some accuracy so I did the kick to show off...), he grumbled a bit and backed off to his friends.

People are inherently more afraid of being kicked in the head than punched. So I definitely think that high kicks even not aimed at a person, if done well enough, can be a good visual deterrent!


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## Balrog

arnisador said:


> I read in a "Illustrated Dict. of Special Forces" book this evening that all South Korean SF personnel must be TKD black belts--can anyone comment on that? Is it still so?



I went to Korea in 1991 for instructor certification.  One of the perks of the trip was that we got to work out for a day with the ROK Tiger Division.  I found out that all commissioned officers in the military were required to hold Black Belt rank.  Don't know if that is still the case, but I would imagine so.


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## Balrog

Oops, hit enter too soon.

In response to the OP - Taekwondo is just a martial art.  It's not the martial art that is important, it's the martial artist.  Person A who is better trained in Taekwondo will usually beat Person B, who is less skilled in a different martial art.  And vice versa.


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## StudentCarl

noonesfool said:


> I signed up 2 months ago for Tae Kwon Do and I'm starting to doubt it's usefulness.


 
I love the name given by the OP, given the irony in his/her statement. To judge at two months is to judge the book by its cover. It sounds like the OP was hoping for immediate transformation, perhaps revealing other lessons s/he needed to learn.

Taekwondo trains the whole person: body, mind, emotion, and spirit. When the beginning student joins taekwondo, he/she awkwardly works to shape himself into a martial artist. There is a long, perhaps endless period of shaping yourself to taekwondo (hopefully less awkwardly as you go). Somewhere along the way, taekwondo becomes part of you--you learn your own natural affinity within the art. The pace of this is individual.

If you review first-hand reports from any discipline of professionals who survive crisis situations, you will repeatedly find, in many different wordings, "my training took over." Yes, taekwondo will give you that.


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## Gorilla

The funny thing about this thread is that it is a 8 year old thread.  I wonder if the original poster is still in TKD and if his opinions have changed.  I doubt we will ever know since he was a guest poster to begin with.


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## ATC

Gorilla said:


> The funny thing about this thread is that it is a 8 year old thread...


:rofl: I just found this funny. Who brought this backup in the first place? Someone had to do some deep digging to revive this thread.


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## jthomas1600

jthomas1600 said:


> I think the only way that TKD is not useful and can in fact be counter productive is if you try to use techniques that you have not mastered yet or are not appropriate for the situation you're in. I have a hard enough time trying to make good contact with a kick pad in the gym doing tornado kicks and spinning hook kicks....these kicks would only serve to put me in bad positions (off balance and with my back to my opponent) on the street. I'm pretty confident though in my round house kicks and side kicks and would definitely use those if the situation called for it. I think a lot comes down to knowing your strengths and weaknesses.



OK, yeah, I'm quoting myself. I just wanted to add that this is not unique to TKD. I imagine there are a lot of guys that take 6 months of BJJ classes and think they'll just pull guard and slap a triangle on somebody only to find out it's not always that easy on the street and if your first submission attempt fails you're just left with a pissed off bad guy on top of you.


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## StudentCarl

ATC said:


> :rofl: I just found this funny. Who brought this backup in the first place? Someone had to do some deep digging to revive this thread.


 
I think the question occurs to many students, so it's probably better for the forum to have it resurrected than annoyingly cloned over and over. I wonder how many times the same thing has been asked and answered in other ways. I too wonder what happened to the OP...hope he found what he wanted.


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## Mannyjv

Anderson Silva(UFC) is a practitioner of Tae Kwon Do and he has some of the best kicks MMA has ever seen. Kickboxing is a brutal sport and one of its predecessors is Tae Kwon Do. If you are good enough you can make any martial art work for you and in my opinion if you are good enough to make even the flashiest and corniest martial arts work than you will be better off than someone who is not that great at the simplest and most effective martial arts.


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## Gorilla

Mannyjv said:


> Anderson Silva(UFC) is a practitioner of Tae Kwon Do and he has some of the best kicks MMA has ever seen. Kickboxing is a brutal sport and one of its predecessors is Tae Kwon Do. If you are good enough you can make any martial art work for you and in my opinion if you are good enough to make even the flashiest and corniest martial arts work than you will be better off than someone who is not that great at the simplest and most effective martial arts.



Semper Fi ... from the son of an X Marine...and the Black Sheep of the Family...I joined the Army!!!!!


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## Hudson69

If your school is sport oriented and you are looking for something a little more street oriented then you might need to pass on the current school you are attending but I would like to think that TKD is as effective as most other systems; if taught to be flexible enough to adapt to the environment.


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