# What is it with kung fu movies...



## Bruno@MT (Apr 7, 2009)

that they always feel the need to have people levitate and fly around the place. I have to admit that it ruined 'crouching tiger hidden dragon' for me. And it seems to be prevalent in many other CMA movies.
Does it serve some kind of purpose? If so, it is wasted on me.


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## Aikikitty (Apr 7, 2009)

Yeah, I don't like martial art movies where they float/fly around in either. I think they do that to make it "artsy" or "stylized" or something. Sometimes it looks "pretty", but more often it annoys me.

And is it just me, but it also seems that most of the CMA "flying/artsy" movies (ones I've seen) end in tragedy.  I heard once somewhere that a lot of Chinese legends end sad and many like that.  Is that true???  I much prefer Jackie Chan's older movies---fun martial art action, lots of comedy, and no sad endings!


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## exile (Apr 7, 2009)

I think that whole genre of movie is based on surrealistic conventions. It's part of the background. There's a separate tradition of Chinese ghost stories in which the same kinds of unearthly things happen in the midst of ordinary-seeming life. It's not unusual in classical Chinese literature, from what I've seen of that---_Story of the Stone_, the _Di Goong An_ mysteries, and so on. There's probably a connection....


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 7, 2009)

I think that martial arts have developed a 'mystical' reputation over the years, an image that some martial arts have not gone out of their way to correct.  Indeed, some still continue to insist that there is a supernatural aspect to their flavor of MA.

The public bought it.  So they want to see those amazing supernatural things when they see movies about it.  And like Die Hard movies - if one explosion was good, the next movie better have bigger explosions and more of them.

Everybody want Kung Fu Fighting...


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## arnisador (Apr 7, 2009)

It's out of hand by now, I'll say that.


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2009)

It's about fantasy. There are a number of stories from every culture that are iconic. Often, these stories are embellished and a real, historical person has been embued with supernatural abilities. Every culture does this, and whether the character is real or fiction, there's a universal interest in these kinds of fantasies. Our superhero movies in the USA are the exact same thing... just with a bigger budget and a different aesthetic.


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## cdunn (Apr 7, 2009)

It's a fairly time honored story telling technique. Even the ancient greeks dropped actors onto the stage from rope machines to do supernatural things. Remember, the average filmgoer wants to see a struggle writ large, in understandable strokes. Wirefu is just another way of emphasizing that these are not ordinary people. The realism of their fight is secondary to telling the overall story... and it should be. 

Plus, watching two people wrestle around on the ground for 10 minutes defending each other's fingerlocks gets boring pretty fast.


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2009)

cdunn said:


> Plus, watching two people wrestle around on the ground for 10 minutes defending each other's fingerlocks gets boring pretty fast.


Not for me!


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## cdunn (Apr 7, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Not for me!


 
Only because you know, understand, and are already interested in it from other sources. If the answer from an average person to 'what are they doing?' is 'I dunno, humping each other's legs?', you're not doing a good job of telling your story.


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> that they always feel the need to have people levitate and fly around the place. I have to admit that it ruined 'crouching tiger hidden dragon' for me. And it seems to be prevalent in many other CMA movies.
> Does it serve some kind of purpose? If so, it is wasted on me.


 

good point. I think they are catering towards a people that love but do not practice martial arts. To them it looks awesome. I hate movies where the fighting doesn't look realistic (flying is fine as long as the chereographed contact is good) like kill bill 1 and 2. However, my friends swear by those movies. 

hahaha. I sit there unimpressed while they oo and aaa.

dnovice.


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## searcher (Apr 7, 2009)

It all comes down to the bottom line.   Most of the general public feel some need to thnk that MAists have some mystical abilities.     THEY have no sense of what is/is not real andthey seem to like it that way.


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## Omar B (Apr 7, 2009)

I mentioned it in the Tony Ja V Jet Lee thread yesterday, but I'll say it again, "movie kung fu is too fluttery."  It does not look brutal or visceral as of late.  It's pretty moves that looks like balet dancers throwing fists combined with the Broadway production of Peter Pan.

Gimmie some old school, Bruce, Sammo, Jackie (before he got that bug too).


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## LordOfWu (Apr 7, 2009)

Interesting, I do know what is real and not, and I absolutely love the Hong Kong genre of Kung Fu movies!  I am not watching a movie to learn techniques, I am being entertained.  I am being shown something very clearly not in the realm of reality, because movies are an escape from reality.  If I want to watch real fighting, I will watch real fighting.  If I am watching a movie I want to be taken somewhere different.

Everyone has their own reasons for watching movies, and it's no better to look at people enjoying Kill Bill (which I loved!) and looking down on them because they don't know what's real or not, than it is to look down at a snobby MAist who can't get over their own knowledge enough to enjoy themselves.  Both are wrong.

Just my two cents.


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## Jenna (Apr 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> that they always feel the need to have people levitate and fly around the place. I have to admit that it ruined 'crouching tiger hidden dragon' for me. And it seems to be prevalent in many other CMA movies.
> Does it serve some kind of purpose? If so, it is wasted on me.


Hey there Bruno@MT  I guess the folk who bankroll these movies feel the current trend towards extravagant wirework will put more bums on seats.  Would real, brutal MA attract more movie-goers?  Maybe, though it would take some new thinking to move away from this current wuxia-style norm.  And but then mainstream movie making is hardly the place for revolutionary thought, right?  Having said that, I think among the flight-fight scenes there are some truly great action scenes, would you not agree?  Kung-Fu Hustle is one of my favourites   And as has been already said, it is only meant as entertainment.  There is no allusion to realism in the martial arts action 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Omar B (Apr 7, 2009)

I hear you man.  Actually I stopped watching "fight" movies for years because it was just so painful for me watching them pull punches and kicks, then fly all over the place.  The I got the Bruce Lee collection on DVD and now I'm back.  Certain things just pull you out of it you know, like I'm a musician and anytime I see on TV or in a movie someone miming playing an instrument that you can clearly see that they are not playing just smacks me in the face.


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

LordOfWu said:


> Everyone has their own reasons for watching movies, and it's no better to look at people enjoying Kill Bill (which I loved!) and looking down on them because they don't know what's real or not, than it is to look down at a snobby MAist who can't get over their own knowledge enough to enjoy themselves. Both are wrong.


 
lol. and its wrong to assume that someone looks down on people just because that person himself doesn't like the movie they like. My friends like their movies and i like my movies based on experience. Negative judging involved.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 7, 2009)

It's not like I look down on people for enjoying e.g. crouching tiger hidden dragon, it's just that I think those movies would be so much better if they left the flying around stuff out of it.

Jet Li and JAckie chan manage to make enjoyable movies without having to resort to that kind of thing. There are probably movies in which they do, but there are also movies in which they don't.

It's like when Steven Saegal played in Under Siege 1 and 2. I liked those movies. But nowadays he thinks he is some kung fu sifu with lots of hand waving and pointed fingers. And ever since he started his CMA trip, his movies sucked. IMHO of course.


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## Blindside (Apr 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> It's not like I look down on people for enjoying e.g. crouching tiger hidden dragon, it's just that I think those movies would be so much better if they left the flying around stuff out of it.


 
Don't think of them as "martial arts movies" think of them as "superhero movies."  Superman is supposed to fly, how would you feel about going to watch the next superman movie and they "reimagined" it so that he can't fly anymore, plus he doesn't have superspeed and so now he has to drive his Volkswagon off to deal with the rampaging baddies.  Thats what you are dealing with here, these characters are supposed to have unnatural abilities, if you take that away, you are taking away a major part of the the developed genre.


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2009)

cdunn said:


> Only because you know, understand, and are already interested in it from other sources. If the answer from an average person to 'what are they doing?' is 'I dunno, humping each other's legs?', you're not doing a good job of telling your story.


That was meant to be tongue in cheek.  I understand that for many, watching grappling is like watching golf.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 7, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Don't think of them as "martial arts movies" think of them as "superhero movies."  Superman is supposed to fly, how would you feel about going to watch the next superman movie and they "reimagined" it so that he can't fly anymore, plus he doesn't have superspeed and so now he has to drive his Volkswagon off to deal with the rampaging baddies.  Thats what you are dealing with here, these characters are supposed to have unnatural abilities, if you take that away, you are taking away a major part of the the developed genre.



I understand you argument, but I don't want them to be superhero movies. If I watch a superhero movie (actually, I don't), I would be ok with it.

But when I watch a MA movie, I want it to be about a very, very good martial artist whose skills are so great that he can in the end beat the supervillain.

Steven saegal breaking wrists and elbows is what I want to see.
Steven saegal doing magic handwaving to fight a sorcerer aided drug lord... not so much.

Or take 'romeo must die' which was a great movie: funny great fight scenes, and no superpowers


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 7, 2009)

Thing to remember, especially in Kung fu films is that a lot of the stories and techniques are taken from Chinese opera, which told Chinese folk/fairy tales( of which Crouching Tiger was, in fact, an adaptation of one I believe), and in the tradition of Chinese folktales, having protagonists who were able to do these things was not uncommon at all.


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## crushing (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't mind them.  They require a little more suspension of disbelief, but films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, House of the Flying Daggers, and especially Hero are beautiful works of art and entertainment.


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## Jenna (Apr 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Steven saegal doing magic handwaving to fight a sorcerer aided drug lord... not so much.


... Actually, that's one I'd watch


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I understand you argument, but I don't want them to be superhero movies. If I watch a superhero movie (actually, I don't), I would be ok with it.
> 
> But when I watch a MA movie, I want it to be about a very, very good martial artist whose skills are so great that he can in the end beat the supervillain.
> 
> ...


So... it seems simple to me. Don't watch those movies. If you were to go see an Adam Sandler movie, but then complain because you don't like his sense of humor, I don't have a lot of sympathy. In that vein, you're criticizing a genre of movie for doing what is integral to the genre. They don't call it wire-fu for nothing! 

It sounds like you enjoy a more Hollywood version, and there's nothing wrong with it. But just because you don't like something doesn't mean they've ruined it. 

And honestly, what ruined Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was everything BUT the wire-fu. That guy, Ang Lee loves to take time honored male genre stories and turn them into chick flicks.  First it's martial arts films.  Then it's the Western and the trifecta was the superhero genre.  I've never felt more betrayed!


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

Blindside said:


> Don't think of them as "martial arts movies" think of them as "superhero movies." Superman is supposed to fly, how would you feel about going to watch the next superman movie and they "reimagined" it so that he can't fly anymore, plus he doesn't have superspeed and so now he has to drive his Volkswagon off to deal with the rampaging baddies. Thats what you are dealing with here, these characters are supposed to have unnatural abilities, if you take that away, you are taking away a major part of the the developed genre.


 
just had to point out... you had me rolling when i read. Superman in a volkswagon. lmao.


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## dnovice (Apr 7, 2009)

crushing said:


> I don't mind them. They require a little more suspension of disbelief, but films like Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, House of the Flying Daggers, and especially Hero are beautiful works of art and entertainment.


 
Absolutely Crushing, House of the flying Daggers and Hero are great works of art. They have deep plots. Its an action flick that not only entertains your need for action but also puts forth a great plot, something most martial arts or action films are missing. Crouching tiger hidden dragon not so much. 

Now imagine if the movie had a cliche plot (you killed my father, you killed my mother so I must have revenge) and the fight scenes are not really titilating or real enough... There's nothing really to focus on.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 8, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> So... it seems simple to me. Don't watch those movies. If you were to go see an Adam Sandler movie, but then complain because you don't like his sense of humor, I don't have a lot of sympathy. In that vein, you're criticizing a genre of movie for doing what is integral to the genre. They don't call it wire-fu for nothing!



You are right. If I were to go to an Adam Sandler movie (rather poke out my eyes with a fork) I shouldn't complain that the most annoying comedy actor of this day plays the main part.

But CTHD was not avertised as wire-fu (not a term used here anyway).
The trailers on tv didn't show any wire-fu.
In fact, the trailers looked so good that even my wife (with no interest in MA) agreed it would be a nice movie to go to.

And then if 2 minutes into the movie, people fly all over the place, ...

Over here, you never know if a movie is going to be wire-fu or not without googling. Which ruins the plot of course.
And I don't mind it if it is just a bit. That last movie with jackie chan and jet li was pretty good imo, and the wire-fu did not detract from the fight scenes.


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## exile (Apr 8, 2009)

I have a somewhat different take on CTHD.

I don't know if you've seen _Saturday Night Fever_, supposedly the ultimate 'disco' movie. But my overwhelming sense of SNF was that it wasn't about disco, any more than a play is 'about' its set. What SNF was exploring was the evolution of a personality, a guy who has a kind of charisma that gets people to do things to win his approval, stupid things in many case, but who has no sense whatever of any responsibility for them, for the consequences of his own actions. He causes things, sometimes terrible things, to happen around him, but has no clue that he is in any way implicated in those events. The disco is just part of the background, a prominent part of the culture of a certain part of the working class/ethnic subworld that the protagonist comes from, a group of people for whom almost all doors are closed. 

In a way&#8212;a big way&#8212;I think CTHD is _not_ a MA movie, in the same sense that SNF is not a disco movie. The film's real interest seems to me to lie in the catastrophic effect of Zhang Ziyi' self-centered boredom on the people whose lives are affected by her theft of Green Destiny&#8212;Li Mu-bai, Shu-lien, Jade Fox and others. The movie looks at a group of people at the other end of the social hierarchy from SNF, but again, what the movie is about is casual indifference to the effects of what one does. The MA level is a big part of it, but a lot of what went into that movie was really there, I think, to set the stage for ZZ's lethal exercise in recreational destructiveness. So when I think about CTHD, I don't really compare it to other MA moves, even those, like _Hero_, that use the same kind of lush cinematography...


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## Jade Tigress (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm sure I'm way off base here but, I was under the impression that it was part of Chinese mythology to be able to obtain such powers as a result of training to a point of eliteness. Not everyone can obtain these powers but it's available to anyone skilled enough to surpass the upmost levels of training.

But, I'm thinkin the superhero analogy is more on target.


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## teekin (Apr 8, 2009)

I have to say that my favorite Kung FU movies are the old ones with Bruce Lee. No blow lands, the sound effects are not quite in sync and the dubbed in voices are way way off sync. They are just a riot! Kind of like Monty Python or Godzilla vs Mothra or Plan 9 from Outer Space.
lori


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