# Help finding a school!



## bigfootsquatch (Apr 20, 2014)

Hey guys,


I have been interested in studying bujinkan or genbukan taijutsu for a while. I currently live in Shreveport. I've noticed several schools in the area. The closest one is in Texarkana about an hour away. There's some other schools in the Dallas area and in little rock Arkansas. 


I was wondering if you guys have heard of any of these schools and your thoughts?


Dallas
Jigokudojo - Luke Molitor


Kusakage Dojo -  George kohler


Arkansas and Texarkana,TX




Arkansas Bujinkan Dojo Online - Affiliated Dojos


Looking primarily at Mushin Dojo (it's closest)


Any advice??


Also any good videos or books to help supplement. All schools are bujinkan minus Kohler's school. Will have to travel to train, so closer is ideal, but I've heard good things about Molitor.


I have prior experience with tae Kwon do and Brazilian Jiu jitsu if that means anything. Lol




Thanks for any feedback!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 21, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> 
> I have been interested in studying bujinkan or genbukan taijutsu for a while. I currently live in Shreveport. I've noticed several schools in the area. The closest one is in Texarkana about an hour away. There's some other schools in the Dallas area and in little rock Arkansas.



Cool!



bigfootsquatch said:


> I was wondering if you guys have heard of any of these schools and your thoughts?



Not the schools per se, but the persons...



bigfootsquatch said:


> Dallas
> Jigokudojo - Luke Molitor



Luke has a very good reputation, in the US Bujinkan, and is pretty well known as the "Bujinkan sword guy", amongst other accolades. He often does seminars with Don Roley, as well as others, and is very well received from all reports. For Bujinkan, highly recommended.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Kusakage Dojo -  George kohler



George Kohler is a very serious practitioner, and an absolute wealth of knowledge. A very senior member of the Genbukan, and very highly recommended.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Arkansas and Texarkana,TX
> 
> Arkansas Bujinkan Dojo Online - Affiliated Dojos
> 
> ...



These persons I haven't come across&#8230; a quick look at the page linked shows that, although affiliated, don't (on a quick view) seem to have the experience of either George or Luke&#8230; 



bigfootsquatch said:


> Any advice??



Sure&#8230; it's honestly the only real advice here that matters, and would be the same even if we knew each intimately, or knew nothing about them at all. Go to as many of the schools as is possible for you, and see which of the teachers you like the most&#8230; who can you respect, who you can learn from, and who you "groove" with&#8230; then make up your own mind. On paper, my choice would be George Kohler in a heartbeat&#8230; but the Genbukan and Bujinkan are quite different beasts, and my preferences aren't necessarily yours.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Also any good videos or books to help supplement. All schools are bujinkan minus Kohler's school. Will have to travel to train, so closer is ideal, but I've heard good things about Molitor.



Videos and books? Nah, not yet. Training first. Most of the good Genbukan videos you can only get once you're a member anyway (officially&#8230; at least&#8230, Bujinkan videos are a fairly mixed batch, with opinions quite spread&#8230; I'd wait to pick an instructor, and listen to their guidance first and foremost. They will be able to show which they like (and state why), from which you can start to build a base of understanding to make your own mind up.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I have prior experience with tae Kwon do and Brazilian Jiu jitsu if that means anything. Lol



Ha&#8230; nope. Doesn't mean a thing. And I'm saying that from a TKD and Karate background, and having cross-trained in BJJ&#8230; 



bigfootsquatch said:


> Thanks for any feedback!



No problems. Let us know how you go.


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 21, 2014)

Why would you pick Kohler? I'm not that interested in organizations. I know bujinkan quality varies. I think genbukan may be stricter in general. I've seen tons of bujinkan videos and several aren't good, but I've seen the good also. I know there's good skill under the right instructor regardless of bujinkan or genbukan.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 21, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Why would you pick Kohler?



I've interacted with George here and on other forums, and he is, as I said, an absolute wealth of knowledge. Combine that with the higher level of consistency in the Genbukan, and it matches my personal preferences&#8230; but I really do have to emphasise here that they are my personal preferences, so all it means is that that would be my choice. That said, there are things in the Genbukan that I'm not particularly fond of&#8230; as with the Bujinkan, and the Jinenkan. I'm happier where I am, honestly, for a variety of reasons, none of which have any real bearing here.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I'm not that interested in organisations.



Okay&#8230; depending on exactly what you're wanting to get out of the training, it can be quite important, or not.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I know bujinkan quality varies.



Hmm&#8230; yeah. That's one way of putting it&#8230; 



bigfootsquatch said:


> I think genbukan may be stricter in general.



I don't know that I'd say stricter (they certainly are in terms of the organisational rules), but they are far more consistent.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I've seen tons of bujinkan videos and several aren't good, but I've seen the good also.



Cool. This is where we start to get to your answers&#8230; what did you like about the ones you felt were good? What didn't you like about the ones you felt weren't good?



bigfootsquatch said:


> I know there's good skill under the right instructor regardless of bujinkan or genbukan.



Very true. 

Oh, and I saw the PM attempt&#8230; I'll clear some room in case you want to try again&#8230; give me a few minutes to pick what I want to sacrifice&#8230;


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 21, 2014)

_Cool. This is where we start to get to your answers&#8230; what did you like about the ones you felt were good? What didn't you like about the ones you felt weren't good?


_To be perfectly honest, some of it looks like a complete joke. the way the moves are demoed are completely unrealistic with people falling before they are touched. Ive seen a video where the instructor was teaching a "guard pass". I "" guard pass because I know white belts with better guard passes. This was toshindo, but I know toshindo is based off Bujinkan taijutsu.

The older ninjutsu videos of Hatsumi (black and white) look much better than most anything ive seen. It appears very authentic and practical for the most part. That's what I liked. Ive seen some of Richard Van Donk's _Combat Ninjutsu_ and it was OK. Some of it ive seen before. Some of RVD's stuff looks iffy, but then he'll show something really cool. 

My understanding is that there is very little sparring due to the nature of the techniques. I don't know what to think of that to be honest. In BJJ we roll every day with armlock, chokes, leglocks, etc. Without resistance, how do the students know if they can apply their techniques?

I basically posted the same thing I was going to PM you. 

Thank you for your time!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 21, 2014)

I have several personal friends that vouch for Luke Molitor so if you can make it to train with him that would be great!  My preference is to be as close to "The Source" as possible and that is Hatsumi Sensei.  Luke has a strong reputation and travels to Japan regularly so if you can train with him great.  On the other side I have heard nothing but good things about George Kohler as well.  Check out all the schools you are interested in by visiting and training as a guest if possible and then find the one that fits you the best!  Good luck!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 22, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> _Cool. This is where we start to get to your answers&#8230; what did you like about the ones you felt were good? What didn't you like about the ones you felt weren't good?
> 
> 
> _To be perfectly honest, some of it looks like a complete joke. the way the moves are demoed are completely unrealistic with people falling before they are touched. Ive seen a video where the instructor was teaching a "guard pass". I "" guard pass because I know white belts with better guard passes. This was toshindo, but I know toshindo is based off Bujinkan taijutsu.
> ...



Cool. As I implied, different people will see different things in the same material. For example, many years back, my instructor gave me a copy of RVD's "Combat Ninjutsu" tape with the words "Here, just so you can see how bad a 10th Dan can be&#8230;" 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have several personal friends that vouch for Luke Molitor so if you can make it to train with him that would be great!  My preference is to be as close to "The Source" as possible and that is Hatsumi Sensei.  Luke has a strong reputation and travels to Japan regularly so if you can train with him great.  On the other side I have heard nothing but good things about George Kohler as well.  Check out all the schools you are interested in by visiting and training as a guest if possible and then find the one that fits you the best!  Good luck!



Just to absolutely clarify something here&#8230; Hatsumi is certainly considered the "source" for the Bujinkan&#8230; but that's all. If you were to go to the Genbukan, he's simply the head of another organisation, albeit closely related, and Tanemura is your "source". Confusing them due to a sense of loyalty is understandable, but not correct.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 22, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> For example, many years back, my instructor gave me a copy of RVD's "Combat Ninjutsu" tape with the words "Here, just so you can see how bad a 10th Dan can be&#8230;"


Just as a clarification, is RVD referring to richard von donk or ronald duncan (I don't know his middle name)? If the first, no questions since i havent heard of him before googling rvd combat ninjitsu. If the second, what video did you watch/what reasoning do you have for thinking he is 'bad' in said video?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 22, 2014)

Okay&#8230; yeah, I was referring to Richard Van Donk (RVD)&#8230; but I do have to ask, if I had meant Ron Duncan, why would you be surprised that I'd be rather critical of his work as well?


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 23, 2014)

Ron Duncan lied about his training ( my understanding ). There are NO more Koga ryu anymore. I don't know how good his skill was, nor do I care. There's no need to lie about your training.....

Richard Van Donk has a bad rep for his homestudy courses. I've read some of people's experiences. I think home study courses CAN be done IF the student sees the instructor from time to time. Some instructors have gone do far as to use Skype to correct in real time , but I wonder how much detail is still missed?

As far as Donks skill? I've seen worse. (And Better)

The bujinkan could use a little regulation. It seems to me that there's the inner circle of true hatsumi students, and then everyone else. Just my opinion


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. As I implied, different people will see different things in the same material. For example, many years back, my instructor gave me a copy of RVD's "Combat Ninjutsu" tape with the words "Here, just so you can see how bad a 10th Dan can be&#8230;"
> 
> 
> 
> Just to absolutely clarify something here&#8230; Hatsumi is certainly considered the "source" for the Bujinkan&#8230; but that's all. If you were to go to the Genbukan, he's simply the head of another organisation, albeit closely related, and Tanemura is your "source". Confusing them due to a sense of loyalty is understandable, but not correct.



Truthfully it depends on how you look at it.  Hatsumi Sensei is "the source" for most of Tanemura Sensei training, Manaka Sensei training etc.  Sure they are the head of their systems but he was their teacher!  This is not meant as a dis to either Tanemura Sensei or Manaka Sensei it just is what it is!  Personally, I would rather be closer to "The Source" of the Takamatsuden Arts.  Of course other people may feel differently or train in another of the Takamatsuden systems and that is perfectly fine and I wish them all the best. I have great respect for Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.  They are fantastic martial practitioners and teachers.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 23, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Truthfully it depends on how you look at it.  Hatsumi Sensei is "the source" for most of Tanemura Sensei training, Manaka Sensei training etc.  Sure they are the head of their systems but he was their teacher!  This is not meant as a dis to either Tanemura Sensei or Manaka Sensei it just is what it is!  Personally, I would rather be closer to "The Source" of the Takamatsuden Arts.  Of course other people may feel differently or train in another of the Takamatsuden systems and that is perfectly fine and I wish them all the best. I have great respect for Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.  They are fantastic martial practitioners and teachers.



Interesting issue. Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu for 15 years.  He has been teaching for well over 40 years and I am given to understand that he is still introducing new material on a regular basis.  That means that either he has been holding back from his students to a ridiculous degree or else much of what he teaches originates not from Takamatsu but from his own personal explorations and experiences. 

I believe the second option is the correct one and that  much of what Hatsumi teaches is really his own art, although rooted in Takamatsu's teachings. By the same token, Tanemura has had 30 years since he left the Bujinkan to develop the Genbukan into its own thing, including gaining knowledge and certifications in other arts. From that perspective, Hatsumi really is not the primary source for what is taught in the Genbukan today. The Bujinkan and the Genbukan teach systems which share common roots, but I wouldn't venture to say which is closer to what Takamatsu was teaching 50 years ago.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

*Tony we are not really that far off in our opinion based on both or our postings past and present*.  I would expect both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei to grow as teacher's and explore their martial systems after they left just like you illustrated Hatsumi Sensei has done.  That is natural and good.  I personally have several prominent teachers in my background and while you can see them in my movement you can also see a difference because of my exploration.  This is clearly the same for both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.  However, while I might move slightly different than some of my teachers *they still are my teachers*. (I have just happened to stay on great terms with them)  That is just the reality of the situation.  Regardless if we train every day or once in awhile.  In the Takamatsuden arts Hatsumi Sensei is *"the source".  *Other people have trained with him, stayed with him or moved on but in the end he still is "the source".  He was the source for their Takamatsuden training. (not including a few weekends else where)  I actually like the fact that some senior students have moved on and created their own way.  That is good and healthy and I would encourage people to train with them.  Before he broke away many of my contemporaries trained with Tanemura Sensei.  Almost everyone of us trained with Manaka Sensei.  *They are great martial practitioner's and doing their own thing which is great*.  My perspective, for me is that I would rather train with Hatsumi Sensei or people that regularly train with him.  That is my perspective.  Other people will disagree and that is fine!  Some will enjoy training in the Genbukan or Jinenkan and they will get great training as well in those systems.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay&#8230; yeah, I was referring to Richard Van Donk (RVD)&#8230; but I do have to ask, if I had meant Ron Duncan, why would you be surprised that I'd be rather critical of his work as well?


More wondering about what you would be critical of. Never met the man while he was alive, but have met some people who say that they've learned from him, and they're all pretty good, so wouldn't expect his videos to be the ones a person shows to show how bad a MAist could be.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

kempodisciple said:


> More wondering about what you would be critical of. Never met the man while he was alive, but have met some people who say that they've learned from him, and they're all pretty good, so wouldn't expect his videos to be the ones a person shows to show how bad a MAist could be.



*His videos are not good* and I have met the man and talked with him a couple of times at a Tai Kai.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *His videos are not good* and I have met the man and talked with him a couple of times at a Tai Kai.


Haven't seen his videos, mind linking one?
What was your opinion when you met him?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

*One just does not train* with someone for 21 years as their primary instructor and then poof they are or were not their teacher!  That probably is the only thing that bother's me about Tanemura Sensei. (my personal opinion)  However, their family dispute is really none of our business and is an old dead horse.  Still regardless of that I really like what he has done with the Genbukan and has managed to turn out some great practitioner's.  With Manaka Sensei this issue is not a problem as he acknowledges Hatsumi Sensei as his primary teacher.  He was just ready to move on and go his own way.  Nothing wrong with that and for some people it is important to grow as a martial practitioner.  *I absolutely love what Manaka Sensei has done with the Jinenkan.*  Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei and several others are or were at a level where they could easily move on and found their own system.  There is nothing wrong with this, it is natural and for some practitioner's it is important for their own growth.  As an instructor one should never try to curtail someone else's growth.  The key as an instructor is to recognize this and when someone is at a level to move on we should help them.  However, that is hard for some people!  Always has and always will be.  Still in the end "the source" for the Takamatsuden arts is Hatsumi Sensei as designated by Takamatsu.  *That is just the way it is*.  

If we were to draw up a proper hierarchial lineage of the three Takamatsuden arts and the Kans it would primarily look like this:

                                                        ..........Bujinkan
..................&#8601;  &#8600;
                                      Genbukan           Jinenkan
*
Of course each instructor had outside influences as well!*

Or a teacher chart:

                                                    ........Takamatsu
                   ...................&#8595;
                                                         .........Hatsumi
                 .................&#8601; &#8600; 
                                      Tanemura         Manaka

*Of course we could insert a whole lot of other people in this as well!  *I know these charts do not jive with some people but..... they are accurate!

This in no way implies that any one of these systems is inferior to the others.  Slight differences yes but the similarities abound regardless of outside influences!  I like the quality control in the Genbukan and the Jinenkan but can understand the impossibility of this in the Bujinkan.  Nor does restrictiveness jive with how Hatsumi Sensei does things.  Having been around all of the highest level practitioners I like being closer to "the source" and at the highest level in Japan the movement in the Bujinkan. (that is also having experience with high level Genbukan and Jinenkan members)  *Yet, that is just my opinion and nothing more*!

I would also add that to this point *no westerner* who has broken away and found their own system had enough experience or knowledge for their new system to be included in the Takmatsuden lineage as a Takamatsuden art.  This is because of their lack of knowledge, skill, ability, etc.  While they certainly may be *some what* Takamatsuden derived they certainly lack what Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei had at the time of their departure. (skill and knowledge)  This of course does not even take into effect Menkyo Kaiden. (both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei had this) This of course is very important in Japanese Martial Arts to be included in the Takamatsuden lineage.  So they really do not get to sit at the table.  There are of course some westerners who now have the ability at least in the Bujinkan. (a very small group)  Whether they have Menkyo Kaiden or not is between them and Hatsumi Sensei but would be important for them to be included in the Takamatsuden lineage chart and to form their own Kan.  I frankly do not know about the Genbukan or Jinenakan in this regard.

In the Takamatsuden Arts the gold standards are the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.  My preference is the Bujinkan.  Other people might have another preference! *As I stated earlier* based on other people's recommendation of Luke Molitor that I personally know he would be a good person to check out and see if his teaching would work for the OP.  Still he should check out everyone else on his list and find the right fit for him!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

kempodisciple said:


> Haven't seen his videos, mind linking one?
> What was your opinion when you met him?



The brief conversations I had with him were nice.  

I do not have any links to his videos but have watched a few and they were not good.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 23, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The brief conversations I had with him were nice.
> 
> I do not have any links to his videos but have watched a few and they were not good.


Ok, I'll not be lazy then and find them on my own.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 23, 2014)

Ahh I was speaking of RVD not Ronald Duncan.

Ronald Duncan well that is a whole different can or worms never met the man and happy not to have.  I think it is fair to say he made everything up in regards to his system of ninjutsu.


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 23, 2014)

Ive never seen Ronald Duncan's videos either, nor do I care about his skill levels. Im tired of people making up lies to sell their arts to the uninformed mass. Regardless of RVD's videos, AT least he has trained with Hatsumi. I don't know how skilled he is. From what ive seen on Combat Ninjutsu and from snippets of his black belt home study course (im not a home study student don't worry lol), it doesn't look like the right fit for me

Honesty though, some of Hatsumi's newer videos make me wonder about the effectiveness of some of it, but I haven't been on the receiving end so I will not judge

I do like the older Bujinkan videos though. Good stuff!


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## Chris Parker (Apr 25, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Ron Duncan lied about his training ( my understanding ). There are NO more Koga ryu anymore. I don't know how good his skill was, nor do I care. There's no need to lie about your training&#8230;..



To be frank. that's putting it mildly. Duncan claimed to be teaching "Koga Ryu Ninjitsu" (mis-spelled), which seemed to include non-Japanese weapons, non-Japanese training methods, non-Japanese movement forms, and so on&#8230; kinda odd for a traditional, historical Japanese art&#8230; hmm&#8230; In terms of his abilities, nothing really special to talk about&#8230; basic level jujutsu/aiki methods, fairly deplorable weapon work, odd striking ideas, and a hell of a lot of fantasy&#8230; 



bigfootsquatch said:


> Richard Van Donk has a bad rep for his homestudy courses. I've read some of people's experiences. I think home study courses CAN be done IF the student sees the instructor from time to time. Some instructors have gone do far as to use Skype to correct in real time , but I wonder how much detail is still missed?
> 
> As far as Donks skill? I've seen worse. (And Better)
> 
> The bujinkan could use a little regulation. It seems to me that there's the inner circle of true hatsumi students, and then everyone else. Just my opinion



RVD doesn't only have a bad rep for his Home Study Course, for the record&#8230; As far as the "inner circle" idea&#8230; yeah, that gets floated a fair bit&#8230; it's probably got some credence to it&#8230; but, honestly, nothing I've seen shows anything to indicate the type of distinction that's implied. The idea of the senior Japanese instructors being superior due to inner circle training, Menkyo Kaiden (which, frankly, is rather irrelevant&#8230, or anything else, other than simply the fact that they are talented people who have been doing it longer than the Westerners, and have developed along with Hatsumi, just doesn't hold water for me. Especially the idea of Menkyo Kaiden being, well, anything&#8230; but I'm not getting into that here.



kempodisciple said:


> More wondering about what you would be critical of. Never met the man while he was alive, but have met some people who say that they've learned from him, and they're all pretty good, so wouldn't expect his videos to be the ones a person shows to show how bad a MAist could be.



Lots to be critical about as far as Ron Duncan is concerned. His claims to have learnt Koga Ryu from Donn Draeger (only made after Draeger had passed on), who never knew/learnt Koga Ryu, never claimed to know it, and so on, through to his actual teachings themselves...






Nothing thrown in distance, no sense of actual combative realities, no realistic consideration of the limitations/usages of the weapon itself&#8230; 

There's lots more&#8230; his gun defences are good ways to get shot&#8230; the "knife fighting" isn't&#8230; and isn't even related to anything Japanese, let alone ninjutsu (which he claims it is, for the record)&#8230; it isn't even bad FMA stuff&#8230; just a series of "get close and stab them", no ethical consideration, no real technique, no strategy or tactical understanding, and so on.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Truthfully it depends on how you look at it.  Hatsumi Sensei is "the source" for most of Tanemura Sensei training, Manaka Sensei training etc.  Sure they are the head of their systems but he was their teacher!  This is not meant as a dis to either Tanemura Sensei or Manaka Sensei it just is what it is!  Personally, I would rather be closer to "The Source" of the Takamatsuden Arts.  Of course other people may feel differently or train in another of the Takamatsuden systems and that is perfectly fine and I wish them all the best. I have great respect for Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.  They are fantastic martial practitioners and teachers.



Brian, you saw where I said "Confusing them due to a sense of loyalty is understandable, but not correct"? Yeah&#8230; that.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting issue. Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu for 15 years.  He has been teaching for well over 40 years and I am given to understand that he is still introducing new material on a regular basis.  That means that either he has been holding back from his students to a ridiculous degree or else much of what he teaches originates not from Takamatsu but from his own personal explorations and experiences.
> 
> I believe the second option is the correct one and that  much of what Hatsumi teaches is really his own art, although rooted in Takamatsu's teachings. By the same token, Tanemura has had 30 years since he left the Bujinkan to develop the Genbukan into its own thing, including gaining knowledge and certifications in other arts. From that perspective, Hatsumi really is not the primary source for what is taught in the Genbukan today. The Bujinkan and the Genbukan teach systems which share common roots, but I wouldn't venture to say which is closer to what Takamatsu was teaching 50 years ago.



Exactly.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Tony we are not really that far off in our opinion based on both or our postings past and present*.  I would expect both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei to grow as teacher's and explore their martial systems after they left just like you illustrated Hatsumi Sensei has done.  That is natural and good.  I personally have several prominent teachers in my background and while you can see them in my movement you can also see a difference because of my exploration.  This is clearly the same for both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.  However, while I might move slightly different than some of my teachers *they still are my teachers*. (I have just happened to stay on great terms with them)  That is just the reality of the situation.  Regardless if we train every day or once in awhile.  In the Takamatsuden arts Hatsumi Sensei is *"the source".  *Other people have trained with him, stayed with him or moved on but in the end he still is "the source".  He was the source for their Takamatsuden training. (not including a few weekends else where)  I actually like the fact that some senior students have moved on and created their own way.  That is good and healthy and I would encourage people to train with them.  Before he broke away many of my contemporaries trained with Tanemura Sensei.  Almost everyone of us trained with Manaka Sensei.  *They are great martial practitioner's and doing their own thing which is great*.  My perspective, for me is that I would rather train with Hatsumi Sensei or people that regularly train with him.  That is my perspective.  Other people will disagree and that is fine!  Some will enjoy training in the Genbukan or Jinenkan and they will get great training as well in those systems.



Honestly, Brian, this is (in many ways) abject denial of the reality in favour of your personal investment in, and loyalty to Hatsumi. I'm not arguing the Jinenkan idea, but you're off in your take on the Genbukan and where it's drawn from.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *One just does not train* with someone for 21 years as their primary instructor and then poof they are or were not their teacher!  That probably is the only thing that bother's me about Tanemura Sensei. (my personal opinion)  However, their family dispute is really none of our business and is an old dead horse.  Still regardless of that I really like what he has done with the Genbukan and has managed to turn out some great practitioner's.  With Manaka Sensei this issue is not a problem as he acknowledges Hatsumi Sensei as his primary teacher.  He was just ready to move on and go his own way.  Nothing wrong with that and for some people it is important to grow as a martial practitioner.  *I absolutely love what Manaka Sensei has done with the Jinenkan.*  Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei and several others are or were at a level where they could easily move on and found their own system.  There is nothing wrong with this, it is natural and for some practitioner's it is important for their own growth.  As an instructor one should never try to curtail someone else's growth.  The key as an instructor is to recognize this and when someone is at a level to move on we should help them.  However, that is hard for some people!  Always has and always will be.  Still in the end "the source" for the Takamatsuden arts is Hatsumi Sensei as designated by Takamatsu.  *That is just the way it is*.


 
Hatsumi is the "source as designated by Takamatsu" according to Hatsumi, though, Brian. He was not the only one... 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If we were to draw up a proper hierarchial lineage of the three Takamatsuden arts and the Kans it would primarily look like this:
> 
> ..........Bujinkan
> ..................&#8601;  &#8600;
> ...




Actually, Brian, no, this is not accurate. A more accurate one would be:

Takamatsu --> Sato Kinbei --> Tanemura


                -->Kimura Masaji --> Tanemura


                --> Hatsumi --> Manaka

That's simplified, and I'm sure you'll notice the lack of mention of Hatsumi --> Tanemura, but that's due to the fact that almost all of the Genbukan's material/Ryu-ha comes from other students of Takamatsu, not Hatsumi. Manaka's systems (other than Jinen Ryu) all come from Hatsumi&#8230; which is freely acknowledged and correct. To assume that this is the case in the Genbukan is not correct&#8230; even with Tanemura's background with Hatsumi in mind.


Brian R. VanCise said:


> This in no way implies that any one of these systems is inferior to the others.  Slight differences yes but the similarities abound regardless of outside influences!  I like the quality control in the Genbukan and the Jinenkan but can understand the impossibility of this in the Bujinkan.  Nor does restrictiveness jive with how Hatsumi Sensei does things.  Having been around all of the highest level practitioners I like being closer to "the source" and at the highest level in Japan the movement in the Bujinkan. (that is also having experience with high level Genbukan and Jinenkan members)  *Yet, that is just my opinion and nothing more*!



Preferring one organisation's approach over the others is fine&#8230; but again, this idea of Hatsumi being "the source" for any group other than the Bujinkan is just, well, wrong. Oh, and the only reason such control is impossible in the Bujinkan is due to the way Hatsumi has set it up&#8230; organisationally, it's really not impossible at all. In fact, it'd be quite easy.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would also add that to this point *no westerner* who has broken away and found their own system had enough experience or knowledge for their new system to be included in the Takmatsuden lineage as a Takamatsuden art.  This is because of their lack of knowledge, skill, ability, etc.  While they certainly may be *some what* Takamatsuden derived they certainly lack what Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei had at the time of their departure. (skill and knowledge)  This of course does not even take into effect Menkyo Kaiden. (both Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei had this) This of course is very important in Japanese Martial Arts to be included in the Takamatsuden lineage.  So they really do not get to sit at the table.  There are of course some westerners who now have the ability at least in the Bujinkan. (a very small group)  Whether they have Menkyo Kaiden or not is between them and Hatsumi Sensei but would be important for them to be included in the Takamatsuden lineage chart and to form their own Kan.  I frankly do not know about the Genbukan or Jinenakan in this regard.



Garbage, Brian.

Bluntly, this is an application of an unrealistic standard (a ranking system no longer used or applied, which has only a passing relevance unless the person is claiming to teach and licence in a particular ryu-ha itself), and does nothing but show an elitist attitude, misplaced and arrogant. And, for the record, I do know about the Jinenkan and Genbukan in this regard. As well as a range of Western groups.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> In the Takamatsuden Arts the gold standards are the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan.  My preference is the Bujinkan.  Other people might have another preference! *As I stated earlier* based on other people's recommendation of Luke Molitor that I personally know he would be a good person to check out and see if his teaching would work for the OP.  Still he should check out everyone else on his list and find the right fit for him!



This I can agree with&#8230; with the caveat that your personal preferences (or mine, or anyone else's, other than the OP's) are not really anything other than our personal preferences&#8230; the OP should check out as many options as they can, and make up their own mind.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 25, 2014)

Well Chris,

*We have to disagree a lot here.
*
Tanemura Sensei trained with Hatsumi Sensei for over 21 years.  His foundational training as well as advanced actually comes from Hatsumi Sensei.  I know this because well it is fact.  *People were actually there*.  People actually were in class, tai kai, etc. where Hatsumi Sensei taught and Tanemura Sensei demonstrated as one of his advanced students.  This is indisputable!  Sato Kinbei came towards the end as a piece to help establish credibility and differentiation. (*absolutely nothing wrong with that*)  Probably they trained on weekends and he received some finishing touches from Sato Kinbei. (*once again nothing wrong with that and really very cool*)  However, that does not change the fact that Hatsumi Sensei was his primary teacher and will have always have been in the Takamatsuden arts.  *This is fact, not heresay, as people once again were actually there*. (a few high ranking Genbukan members and a slew of Bujinkan people)  Actually my lineage chart is correct but if you please you can put Sato Kinbei in there as well after Hatsumi Sensei.   I see the time with Sato Kinbei as more of a footnote to get a license to move on and nothing more. (my opinion) The foundational training happened under Hatsumi and let's not forget in the Bujinkan where Tanemura Sensei was in the second position before he left and the family dispute had happened.  These are facts Chris.  *Sorry!*

Early westerners who broke away simply did not have the abilty, skills, knowledge to do so and create their own Kan and be recognized as such by Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei or any practitioiner in the Kans.  *Nor have they been*.  The ones that did break away or were driven out such as Stephen Hayes, your teacher, the head of the BBD, etc. Unfortunately did not have the skills or knowledge to found a system and call it Ninjutsu and be recognized as such by the above people who matter in this regard.  Nor did they have Menkyo Kaiden. (very important in a Japanese system Chris but you already know this)  Look at it this way if we had a table and assembled the world's leading practitioner's in the lineage of Ninjutsu.  Who would we put at that table?  Hatsumi Sensei obviously, Tanemura Sensei obviously, Manaka Sensei obviously, the Japanese Shihan in the Bujinkan obviously, (they are peers of Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Senei) anyone else?  Kawakami maybe?  However, no one else that I can think of would be invited.  If the table had a head place and was not round who would sit at the head?  Obviously this would be Hatsumi Sensei he came first and is also the most senior because he is "the source" and that is undisputable.  *Some people may not want it to be that way but it is*.  

Hatsumi is "the source" of the Takamatsuden arts because he taught all the principles who would be at the table. However he was also designated that by Takamatsu Sensei and these are the Takamatsuden arts we are talking about are they not?   Tanemura Senei learned from Hatsumi Sensei, Manaka Sensei learned from Hatsumi Sensei, The Japanese Shihan learned from Hatsumi Sensei.  Do you see a common theme there?  Except Kawakami who might get an invite.

You talk about my vested interest Chris but really what is yours?  Your group claims to teach Ninjutsu and you seem to use the word more than most practitioners.  Your teacher was by all accounts ousted out of the Bujinkan (common knowledge) and obviously that clouds your judgement and why in recent years you have taken liberty to bash the Bujinkan. (hence why we have an issue)  Now, I do not know you guy's from anything but I appreciate the direction your instructor currently has taken moving to more of a self-defense based approach.  Maybe that is the direction you guy's should take as unfortunately you have no ties to Japan or any lineage in Ninjutsu.  Once the ties are cut while you do not lose your skill sets, (if you have them) they may erode or change so that they do not even represent what was and is in Japan.  I personally do not care if you use the Ninjutsu moniker (as it does not really affect me) but you unfortunately need to know *how people see your group*.  With no verifiable link to Japan and doing your own thing it is not much more than a step up from neo-ninjerdom.  No matter how learned you are through books and Japanese history.  Now of course if you re-established a link, trained and corrected mistakes that have happened through the years then your lineage would be thought of differently by members in the Takamatsuden arts.  I am not the only one to say or feel this.  People in all of the Kans feel this way and have mentioned it to me when I asked about certain individuals.   Whether you are in the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan you have a direct link to Japan and instruction in these arts at the highest level.  *Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei are the zenith in this field*.  They are at the apex!  If you do not have that link then well you are missing some thing and it starts with an L!


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 25, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well Chris,
> 
> *We have to disagree a lot here.
> *
> Tanemura Sensei trained with Hatsumi Sensei for over 21 years.  His foundational training as well as advanced actually comes from Hatsumi Sensei.  I know this because well it is fact.  *People were actually there*.  People actually were in class, tai kai, etc. where Hatsumi Sensei taught and Tanemura Sensei demonstrated as one of his advanced students.  This is indisputable!  Sato Kinbei came towards the end as a piece to help establish credibility and differentiation. (*absolutely nothing wrong with that*)  Probably they trained on weekends and he received some finishing touches from Sato Kinbei. (*once again nothing wrong with that and really very cool*)  However, that does not change the fact that Hatsumi Sensei was his primary teacher and will have always have been in the Takamatsuden arts.  *This is fact, not heresay, as people once again were actually there*. (a few high ranking Genbukan members and a slew of Bujinkan people)  Actually my lineage chart is correct but if you please you can put Sato Kinbei in there as well after Hatsumi Sensei.   I see the time with Sato Kinbei as more of a footnote to get a license to move on and nothing more. (my opinion) The foundational training happened under Hatsumi and let's not forget in the Bujinkan where Tanemura Sensei was in the second position before he left and the family dispute had happened.  These are facts Chris.  *Sorry!*



I'll agree that Hatsumi was the original and (at least in terms of total training time) primary source for Tanemura's background in the Takamatsuden arts. (I also think it reflects unfavorably on Tanemura's character that he would drop two decades of training down the memory hole like he has - but that's mostly irrelevant.  I haven't met the man and no one in the Genbukan really cares about my opinion on the matter.)

My point was that neither Hatsumi nor Tanemura is attempting to pass along an unchanged image of the arts that Takamatsu taught in the way that he taught them. Each man is teaching his own art, derived not only from the Takamatsuden arts, but also other martial arts and their own experiences.  Since neither one is really trying to teach exactly what Takamatsu taught, I don't see why it matters which of the two is more directly connected to Takamatsu.

If you prefer the training you've received in the Bujinkan to what you've seen from other organizations, it's probably because you appreciate Hatsumi's personal approach to things rather than because the training is closer to Takamatsu's approach. Nothing wrong with that.

I will point out a problem with the idea that practitioners must always maintain an ongoing link to Hatsumi and his Shihans to correct mistakes and keep up with the new material. Hatsumi only trained with Takamatsu for 15 years.  Who has been correcting _his _mistakes and teaching _him _new material for the last 44 years? If he has been able to grow and progress without further guidance from his instructor, why couldn't someone else who trained in the Bujinkan for 15 years before splitting off do the same? Of course, if you want to stay current with the latest developments in Hatsumi's personal art you will need to stay connected to his organization, but that's a little different from what you seem to be arguing.

(I also don't really much care who Takamatsu designated as soke of which line of which art. The whole thing obsession with sokeship smacks of the "divine right of kings" as far as I'm concerned. Either you know the material and can teach it or you don't. Heck - I understand that in some ryu-ha the sokeship has been passed down to blood relatives of the founder who have minimal training rather than the most advanced practitioners.)

I think we agree that the best approach for a new student is to try out the training that is available in their area and decide what suits them best.

BTW - just a note with regard to your list of who would be at the table of the world's acknowledged leading ninjutsu practitioners and who is qualified to form their own ryu - did you happen to read an interview with Hatsumi that was published shortly after Tanemura broke away? In that interview Hatsumi blasted Tanemura and stated that "everyone knows" that Tanemura "isn't qualified." Maybe that was what prompted Tanemura to start pretending that Hatsumi wasn't one of his teachers.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 25, 2014)

*No doubt Tony you and I agree on most things.*

We are also practical people! 

You are correct in that I like the way Hatsumi Sensei transmits his teachings within the Bujinkan.  While it is difficult for beginners it is perfect for advanced martial practitioner's.  So I like his flair and his methodology and freedom of movement.  When I want basics in Budo Taijutsu I would seek out a Japanese Shihan or a Western Shihan with strong links to Japan.  Genbukan or Jinenkan practitioiner's will of course like what they are doing and that is perfectly okay with me.  They in turn will seek out a qualified teacher with links to in their system to Japan.   I like the movement in the Genbukan and Jinenkan as well.  I just do not have a connection to a teacher in those systems.  To each their own!  

*I would also agree* that in Japanese martial systems the lineage thing is not only overdone in my opinion but then they do not care about my opinion, your opinion or even Chris opinion.  *It is what it is*.  You either have the papers or you don't and if you do not then you go find someone who can give you papers. (Menkyo Kaiden, Sokeship, etc.)  My point about having someone to train with is relevant if you are in a Japanese system and also *claiming* to teach a Japanese system.  Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei have enough skill set and credentials that they are OK and past the mustard test.  Westerners who have to this point broken away unfortunately do not.  Sure they can teach but setting themselves up as the next Ninja Master does a disservice to them *and particularly *to their future students who are sure to be let down in the end.  There are however, Bujinkan westerners who have Menkyo Kaiden albeit in a different line that could break away and teach that. (Phil Legare and Shinken Gata is one)  Yet if they broke away and taught the 9 ryu-ha that make up the Budo Taijutsu and declared themselves the next Ninja Master they would be out of place if they did not have menkyo kaiden in those ryu-ha.  Particularly if they cut ties to Japan.  They would not necessarily have a place at the table so to speak.  I do not know about the Genbukan or Jinenkan in this manner as I do not know who holds menkyo kaiden within those organizations.  It is kind've like all the ninja larpers out there that have no connection to Japan at all yet take on students and teach them ninja larping.  The Ron Duncans, Collins, Jacobsen, etc. of the world.  It would be no different than someone who teaches BJJ without any training.  We would call them out as well.  Now someone who had training, moved away and broke ties but still calls it Ninjutsu probably should rethink what they are doing and maybe just maybe rename what they are doing so as not to mislead the public as well.   Chris's instructor has been moving in this direction and good for him! (hopefully they will continue that move)  I am actually okay with Stephen Hayes and his system of To Shin Do.  Not my cup of tea but I am okay that he moved on. I personally know some people that trained with Stephen and liked the way he moved.  What people within the Kans are not necessarily okay with is Stephen Hayes utilizing the N word and marketing it to the end all while trotting out photos of him and Hatsumi Sensei when as we all know he is not a part of the Bujinkan, hasn't been for a long, long time and that the circumstances of him leaving are not good.  It does not mean he is not a good martial practitioner just that he is not a good representative of the teachings in the lineage of Takamatsu.  A lot of people have much bigger problems with Stephen because of what they were told by him, taught by him not jiving with what is taught in Japan.  You see they thought they were getting the real deal straight from Japan.  Which brings us of course back to lineage and how in Japanese martial systems it can be pretty important. 

We totally agree that the OP should check out several teachers and see what works best for him.  That is the perfect way to decide how to practice any martial system.  Finding the right fit, with the right instructor is essential so that you go to training and get inspired to keep training!  We could probably go on with ten, fifteen or twenty pages of infighting regarding lineage in the Takamstsuden line.


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