# When do you consider yourself a student...



## Master K (Dec 5, 2007)

Another thread got me thinking about this topic.  What does it take to be a student of a particular instructor?

For instance, would you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor if you took a seminar with them?  Would you consider yourself a student of a person if you trained with them for six months?  Basically, when do you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor?

I am curious to hear other people's definitions.

Thanks!


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## setboy (Dec 5, 2007)

I would say it take much more than a seminar. I would not even say I "worked out" with someone giving a seminar.

I would say some one becomes a student somewhere around one month, IF he/she is planning to keep training with you.


Raphael


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## Omar B (Dec 5, 2007)

I dont consider myself somoene's student till he's my main trainer.  I had a head instructor and an assistant instructor and since most of my training was handled by the assistant I considered him my teacher.


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## MarkBarlow (Dec 5, 2007)

When it comes to basics, I would think that a long-term personal relationship would be required before I'd acknowledge the student/teacher roles.  However, with a few years of experience under my belt and the ability to digest material quicker, I have one or two teachers I only see for a weekend or two every year and I still consider them my instructors.  Of course, I also email and phone them for advice and input.


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## Chizikunbo (Dec 5, 2007)

Master K said:


> Another thread got me thinking about this topic.  What does it take to be a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> For instance, would you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor if you took a seminar with them?  Would you consider yourself a student of a person if you trained with them for six months?  Basically, when do you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> ...


When you are formally accepted as a student, I.E. regularly studying with that person...not just once or twice and claiming to be a student.

fwiw,
--josh


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 5, 2007)

When I first started studying I thought of myself as a student the first day. As time went on and I learned more I thought of myself as a student after reaching my first Black Belt rank. As more time went on I felt I was a student of the art more than the instructor as I learned from instructors in different areas of the country as I traveled. 
Yes I was a student of all those instructors but then I became a student of the art.
As for attending a seminar NO I never considered myself a student of the person giving the instruction just a recipient of knowledge from them


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## mystic warrior (Dec 5, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> When it comes to basics, I would think that a long-term personal relationship would be required before I'd acknowledge the student/teacher roles. However, with a few years of experience under my belt and the ability to digest material quicker, I have one or two teachers I only see for a weekend or two every year and I still consider them my instructors. Of course, I also email and phone them for advice and input.


I am with ya on this one


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## karate-dragon (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree that you must be accepted as a student and then train with that oerson as your one main instructor, even though you may attend other seminars are on occassion train with other people. It also has to do with who really helped me and who in the end I really respect. I received my first black belt in a kempo style after 8 years. Now have two other black belts in other styles. But it is my current teacher only that I call are consider myself to be a student of. I'm afraid I lost the respect for the other instrctors along the way. I acknowledge the accomplishments, but not really the other instructors.


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## jks9199 (Dec 5, 2007)

I think that the line I draw is when a particular instructor's teaching significantly and directly shapes my own training.  I've learned from many people, of many different ranks.  But I always shape what I learn from others to what I'm taught by my primary instructor.  It's his guidance I seek on whether to test for promotion, who else I should visit and train with, what I should work on...  He's shaped my training.  He's also the standard and model for how I teach.

But, like I said, there are plenty of folks I've learned from.  I've got Brian's IRT Cornerstone Lunging book, for example, a few feet away, and I've worked with the drills.  In other words, I've learned from Brian (even indirectly), but that doesn't make him my _teacher_.  I learned one of our animal forms from another person; he taught me that form, and a portion of the underlying system -- but he's not my teacher.  I've learned lots from our grandmaster, and he was my teacher's teacher... but I wouldn't count myself as one of his direct students.


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## Master K (Dec 6, 2007)

Mark Barlow brought up an excellent point.  What about people that only train once a year or so?  

What about people that maintain a personal relationship but don't train under their "instructor", yet claim to be a student of their instructor for thirty or forty years?  For instance, let' say that I claim to have been training under my instructor for forty years.  Yet the reality is that I haven't worn a uniform and been in a class of theirs since 1970.  That would mean that I trained under my instructor for three years, yet I may have maintained a personal relationship for the remaining thirty-seven years.

Let's take it one step further.  I trained under my instructor for six months in 1967.  Then I lost contact with him/her.  Through the power of the internet I establish contact again and we start to communicate.  Should I claim to be a student of that person for forty years? 

Any thoughts?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2007)

Master K said:


> Another thread got me thinking about this topic. What does it take to be a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> For instance, would you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor if you took a seminar with them? Would you consider yourself a student of a person if you trained with them for six months? Basically, when do you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> ...


 
I am a student of my Yang Sifu and I am a student of my Sanda Sifu. I would also say I was a student of my Wing Chun Sifu and my first CMA Sifu.

But if I go to a seminar, which I rarely do anymore ,I am a student for that class but I am not their student. In the past I have done seminars with Yang Jwing Ming and Chen Zhenglei and although I liked the training I do not consider myself their student. And to be honest I do not think they would think that I was either. I just have not put in the time training with them to consider myself as such.


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## Master K (Dec 10, 2007)

Master K said:


> Mark Barlow brought up an excellent point.  What about people that only train once a year or so?
> 
> What about people that maintain a personal relationship but don't train under their "instructor", yet claim to be a student of their instructor for thirty or forty years? For instance, let' say that I claim to have been training under my instructor for forty years. Yet the reality is that I haven't worn a uniform and been in a class of theirs since 1970. That would mean that I trained under my instructor for three years, yet I may have maintained a personal relationship for the remaining thirty-seven years.
> 
> ...




Any Master's willing to take a shot at the questions above?


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## MarkBarlow (Dec 10, 2007)

Master K said:


> Any Master's willing to take a shot at the questions above?



Only Masters?  What about us poor schmucks in the trenches?:wink:


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 10, 2007)

Master K said:


> Any Master's willing to take a shot at the questions above?


 
Well that question is only mildly insulting to everyone that has already answered your original question.

And to be honest I do not consider myself a master of anything MA but then again neither do either of my CMA sifus. I am a student and I hope I always think of myself as such so I guess you can disregard my previous answer.

My Taiji Sifu has only over 50 years experience in taijiquan and was a student of Tung Ying Jie. And he only considers himslef a student of Tung Ying Jie

My Sanda Sifu has only 30 years experience in Sanda and all of his training is from his home in Harbin. And he only considers himself a student of his Sifu in Harbin, who is still alive.

What do you consider a master?


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## MarkBarlow (Dec 10, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well that question is only mildly insulting to everyone that has already answered your original question.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you consider a master?



Having studied Japanese martial arts primarily, the use of Master/Grand Master/Supreme Grand Master/etc... always sounds odd to me.  No legitimate Japanese instructor is going to use such an honorific.  I know it's a cultural difference but it does strike me as pompous.  

I too am curious what constitutes a Master?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 10, 2007)

I think your question is *variable* depending on the circumstances and the people involved.  Meaning there is not one exact answer that will fit every situation.  The only answer that might be appropriate is that when one or both individuals feel there is a student/teacher relationship.  I have had people think that they were my students when in reality they were not, (at least not close personally trained students) though later they became practitioner's in IRT as our bond grew. (then we were close)  I am sure that one of the many instructors who dramatically influenced me would feel the same way and yet maybe not. (lord knows some of them had/have so many students/practitioner's)  Still I have had more long lasting personal student/teacher relationships that I still cherish to this day. (*absolutely cherish 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*)  

However I am more interested in why you are asking the question?  Also like Mark and Xue Sheng I am interested in your definition of a master.

As to myself I am just a student working on a path and trying to help others along the way.......


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## Master K (Dec 10, 2007)

I did not mean to insult anyone.  In hindsight the term "Master" was not the correct term.  That's what I get for posting so early in the morning.  Hopefully, people will continue to contribute to this thread.  

As far as whether one considers themselves a Master or not; I will save that for another thread.


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## MarkBarlow (Dec 10, 2007)

Master K said:


> I did not mean to insult anyone.  In hindsight the term "Master" was not the correct term.  That's what I get for posting so early in the morning.  Hopefully, people will continue to contribute to this thread.
> 
> As far as whether one considers themselves a Master or not; I will save that for another thread.



Referring to yourself as Master is a pretty clear indicator.:wink:


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## Doc_Jude (Dec 10, 2007)

Chizikunbo said:


> When you are formally accepted as a student, I.E. regularly studying with that person...not just once or twice and claiming to be a student.



Agreed!


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll always be a student of the arts as long as I can move and breath
no matter how many others i pass my knowledge along to


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## Drac (Dec 10, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> I'll always be a student of the arts as long as I can move and breath
> no matter how many others i pass my knowledge along to


 
Bravo!!! Well said...I will keep learning for as long as I can and reguardless of my rank I will always consider myself a student of the martial arts..Nobody knows everything, but everybody knows something...


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## IcemanSK (Dec 10, 2007)

The previous 2 posts above have said it best. As instructors (of ANY discipline) we are first & foremost students. We become teachers of the discipline because we enjoy the Art & sharing with others. The best instructors are some of the best students of the Arts. The one's that think they've "arrived" aren't worth being around. IMO


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## Kacey (Dec 10, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> The previous 2 posts above have said it best. As instructors (of ANY discipline) we are first & foremost students. We become teachers of the discipline because we enjoy the Art & sharing with others. The best instructors are some of the best students of the Arts. The one's that think they've "arrived" aren't worth being around. IMO



I agree as well:  "A good student can learn any time, any where." - from the Student/Instructor Relationship, Student side, in The Encyclopedia of TaeKwon-Do, Gen. Choi, Hong Hi.  I would add, however - from any one - _good_ students learn from seniors, from juniors, from people on the street, from whomever is around.



Master K said:


> Another thread got me thinking about this topic.  What does it take to be a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> For instance, would you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor if you took a seminar with them?  Would you consider yourself a student of a person if you trained with them for six months?  Basically, when do you consider yourself a student of a particular instructor?
> 
> ...



The original question, however, was the one given above.  I would consider myself the student of a particular instructor when the _instructor_ considers me to be a serious student of _that instructor_.  The student/instructor relationship goes both ways - and for a student to truly be a student of a particular instructor, the instructor must acknowledge the relationship as well.


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## Master K (Dec 11, 2007)

There are some excellent posts.  It has been very enlightening to say the least.

What does everyone think about people that advertise they have "trained with" various well known martial artists in various styles?


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## terryl965 (Dec 11, 2007)

Master K said:


> There are some excellent posts. It has been very enlightening to say the least.
> 
> What does everyone think about people that advertise they have "trained with" various well known martial artists in various styles?


 

It would depend on what you consider training a seminar is not training in my opinion. Stopping by for a day is not training. Training in 20 ARt in Five year and being a BBinevery one is not training.

So my question is simple are you talking training or get togethers?


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## searcher (Dec 11, 2007)

Let me pose a question for pondering.   Are you not a student of someone, if you learn something/anything form someone?    I have had many teachers and not all of them are from the martial arts, but have still taught me martial arts techniques.


Just a little food for thought.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 11, 2007)

Master K said:


> *What does everyone think about people that advertise they have "trained with" various well known martial artists in various styles?[/*quote]
> 
> I tend to take it with a grain of salt, honestly. I've been to seminars done by Bill Wallace & Kathy Long. I learned good things from them. But because I've gotten my picture with them doesn't make me their student. The picture in my avatar is of GM Park, Hae Man. I'm not his student, but his student's student. I put that picture up not to impress anyone here. But simply as a reminder of a great seminar & my lineage.
> 
> Sadly, folks who don't know can be impressed by those lists & photos. If it results in money in the pockets of these folks (those who claim to train with the MA "celebs") or ego strokes or whatever; the photo or story has done it's intended job.


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## Master K (Dec 11, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> It would depend on what you consider training a seminar is not training in my opinion. Stopping by for a day is not training. Training in 20 ARt in Five year and being a BBinevery one is not training.
> 
> So my question is simple are you talking training or get togethers?



I would have to ask those that use the "trained with" on their websites.  My assumption would be that these amrtial artists have attended a one day seminar.  Now, I am not speaking of lectures like one would see in college or university level classes, but rather actual practicing of techniques.


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## Namu (Jan 29, 2008)

I know someone who founded a martial art, gave himself a 3rd dan in it, then a 4th and now calls himself "master".

I'm not going to get into everything I see wrong with that whole set up...

He was also telling a couple of students (of his martial art) last night of an experience he and I shared with one of "our grandmasters". It is a grandmaster who we both went to a seminar with...once.

I will consider myself a student of that grandmaster, when my master orders some of the grandmaster's curriculum DVD's and we start video testing.


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