# Blue belt second stripe....Online?



## Hanzou

Okay, I grew to accept Gjj Torrance giving blue belts online. No biggie. You get your blue belt, and then you come in and go the rest of the way to purple and beyond. However, now they're saying you can get your second stripe online as well. This really bothers me, because its an indication that they may take this beyond blue and to higher belt rankings.

I just can't get behind this. Looking at the Blue Belts I train with, there's no way they could be as proficient as they are if their training was online. Maybe I'm too old school, and just feel that in arts like Bjj (and most MA in general) you need that direct feedback from your instructor while you're training. Watching a video, mimicking movements, and sending in a tape for evaluation just seems wrong to me.

What do you think?


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## drop bear

Yes it is feels wrong for me personally. But my coach was internet training with his coach due to us being in a remote area and then won mma fights with guys from real gyms.

so honestly i don't know. And the only way to know would be to set aside our feelings and look at the data.


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## ballen0351

Wave of the future man.  He said right in the clip he can't wait for the purple belt test.  So I assume at some point soon you can get a purple belt online.  I don't know anything about the actual classes I've never taken then but I think online training is the future.  Agree with it or not it just is you can do anything on line now.  Banking, doctor visits, college classes, etc.  If they do a good job keeping the standards up and have a check and balance system like live feedback from actual instructors then it could work.  Is it the best method probably not but is it better then not training at all?  I don't know if it's quality  material then some is better then none.  If it's crap well there are crap brick and mortar schools to so...


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## tshadowchaser

I do not agree with the whole on line training/testing only way of doing things.  This sounds more like a money making way of teaching rather then training a person.
That being said I do have one instructor that lives 1500 miles away and i only see this person twice a year. My training in the forms is done by sending videos/CD's back and forth with the corrections thoughts on my form being returned to me via CD.  When we do meet then I do the lessons in person for the instructor.  This may be easier for me considering how long I have doing things.


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## Transk53

I am actually surprised the X-Box does have some app along these lines. There is the kinect so why not. Would be no less than a DVD would be, plus a person would have the live interaction and feedback from the app. Not saying it would be better than a proper school, but could have much potential for an at home training tool. IMHO.


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## jezr74

Transk53 said:


> I am actually surprised the X-Box does have some app along these lines. There is the kinect so why not. Would be no less than a DVD would be, plus a person would have the live interaction and feedback from the app. Not saying it would be better than a proper school, but could have much potential for a at home training tool. IMHO.



I love the idea of using a kinect for homer practice. I'd use it for virtual technique practice along with my normal training.


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## Transk53

jezr74 said:


> I love the idea of using a kinect for homer practice. I'd use it for virtual technique practice along with my normal training.



The building blocks are already in place really. There is the Les Mills Bodypump and I imagine others too. Would be quite exciting with many possibilities.


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## tshadowchaser

I am not up to date on all the apps and stuff one can get online or by their phones but without true hands on instruction by a competent instructor who can correct your mistakes how can you you get quality instruction. At some point do you not need actual contact with someone that knows what they are doing to improve what you are doing or think you are doing

aside form that what is kinect?  as I said i'm a primitive


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## Brian R. VanCise

*I just cannot see them awarding anyone a belt from online training.*  I have met some of the current generation of Blue Belts training at some academies and frankly some are not very impressive!  Sorry but back in the day it was on average closer to two and a half to three years to get a blue belt.  Online training, blue belts in a year of training, etc. is starting to water down BJJ.  In the end unfortunately it is the wave of the future due to the money involved!!!  Never liked it when Rorion started this and unfortunately it has continued and probably will continue to it's natural progression. (online black belt)  You simply cannot learn online well as you will miss all the fundamental nuances that you will learn from a live instructor.  Online training, dvd's, books, etc. are all great and serve a great benefit for someone using them as a supplement to their regular training with a live instructor!!!  *By themselves as the sole source they are not so good.*


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## ballen0351

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I just cannot see them awarding anyone a belt from online training.*  I have met some of the current generation of Blue Belts training at some academies and frankly some are not very impressive!  Sorry but back in the day it was on average closer to two and a half to three years to get a blue belt.  Online training, blue belts in a year of training, etc. is starting to water down BJJ.  In the end unfortunately it is the wave of the future due to the money involved!!!  Never liked it when Rorion started this and unfortunately it has continued and probably will continue to it's natural progression. (online black belt)  You simply cannot learn online well as you will miss all the fundamental nuances that you will learn from a live instructor.  Online training, dvd's, books, etc. are all great and serve a great benefit for someone using them as a supplement to their regular training with a live instructor!!!  *By themselves as the sole source they are not so good.*


Why does it matter to you where someone else is training and how the decide to train?


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Why does it matter to you where someone else is training and how the decide to train?



Like Brian said, it waters down the art. It matters to us because we care about Bjj and don't want it to become a mcdojo with 10 year old black belts, and chumps wearing higher ranking belts who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag.

I'd be interested in rolling with an online Blue belt. I doubt they'd be anywhere close on a technical level to someone who learned directly from an instructor.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Like Brian said, it waters down the art. It matters to us because we care about Bjj and don't want it to become a mcdojo with 10 year old black belts, and chumps wearing higher ranking belts who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> I'd be interested in rolling with an online Blue belt. I doubt they'd be anywhere close on a technical level to someone who learned directly from an instructor.


So go tell the Gracies they are messing up BJJ,  Honestly if there is $ to be made someones going to make it.I was looking at some of the GJJ kids stuff online and was watching 3 year old girls "taking down" adults to earn online belts so.....
By the way there are already BJJ mcDojos out there I know of a few that just popped up around here.  Several TKD schools around here now all of a sudden offer BJJ.  Another BJJ school opened by a guy I knew just got a blue belt then all of a sudden in less then 6 months he was a brown belt running a BJJ school in a cross fit gym.  Its life man it happens All you can do is worry about you and your training and making sure what you are learning is good.


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## jezr74

tshadowchaser said:


> I am not up to date on all the apps and stuff one can get online or by their phones but without true hands on instruction by a competent instructor who can correct your mistakes how can you you get quality instruction. At some point do you not need actual contact with someone that knows what they are doing to improve what you are doing or think you are doing
> 
> aside form that what is kinect?  as I said i'm a primitive


Kinect is a camera that is able to track your movement, face, objects in the room etc. Its a Microsoft product primarily used with an Xbox. In this context it tracks your complete body movement by using your joints and extremities to form a virtual skeleton that is augmented into a application.

I have one called In Shape and use it for yoga. The virtual instructor tells you if your not doing moves correctly, and throws in motivation talk on more conventional exercises like lunges, pushups, sit-ups etc. 

There are all sorts of the virtual coaches already, with interesting results from people and feedback from actual trainers and doctors.

Personally think this is where it's heading.


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## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> Like Brian said, it waters down the art. It matters to us because we care about Bjj and don't want it to become a mcdojo with 10 year old black belts, and chumps wearing higher ranking belts who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> I'd be interested in rolling with an online Blue belt. I doubt they'd be anywhere close on a technical level to someone who learned directly from an instructor.


Happens with everything in life. The second you pass on teaching, the second it is done to someone else's standard.

 For bjj and any other skill \craft, it's been happening for years, you may have just not known.


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> So go tell the Gracies they are messing up BJJ,  Honestly if there is $ to be made someones going to make it.I was looking at some of the GJJ kids stuff online and was watching 3 year old girls "taking down" adults to earn online belts so.....



It's not the Gracie's, it's one branch of the Gracie family. I know for a fact that quite a few of the other branches of the family disagree with what they're doing, and have condemned it publicly. So much so that Gracie Torrance stated that they weren't really blue belts, but provisional blues. I guess that was only temporary.



> By the way there are already BJJ mcDojos out there I know of a few that just popped up around here.  Several TKD schools around here now all of a sudden offer BJJ.  Another BJJ school opened by a guy I knew just got a blue belt then all of a sudden in less then 6 months he was a brown belt running a BJJ school in a cross fit gym.  Its life man it happens All you can do is worry about you and your training and making sure what you are learning is good.



A TKD McDojo offering Bjj isn't a Bjj McDojo, it's still a TKD Mcdojo. I'd also be highly suspect of the Bjj taught there! but I digress. I'm not overly concerned with one or two frauds teaching Bjj, they'll be exposed soon enough. That's the great thing about Bjj, you have to fight to justify that cloth around your waist.  A visiting blue belt Jiujitero tapping out brown and black belt instructors is a quick way to get your little McDojo closed forever.

However, Rener and Ryron Gracie are excellent practitioners and quality instructors. I guess I'm more disappointed than anything else.


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## Takai

jezr74 said:


> Kinect is a camera that is able to track your movement, face, objects in the room etc. Its a Microsoft product primarily used with an Xbox. In this context it tracks your complete body movement by using your joints and extremities to form a virtual skeleton that is augmented into a application.
> 
> I have one called In Shape and use it for yoga. The virtual instructor tells you if your not doing moves correctly, and throws in motivation talk on more conventional exercises like lunges, pushups, sit-ups etc.
> 
> There are all sorts of the virtual coaches already, with interesting results from people and feedback from actual trainers and doctors.
> 
> Personally think this is where it's heading.



So George Orwell was right after all.

The Kinect might work well with exercise but, I don't think that it will have the accuracy need to correct MA movements. It might work as a supplement but, I really don't see it even being a good replacement for an instructor.


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## Hanzou

jezr74 said:


> Happens with everything in life. The second you pass on teaching, the second it is done to someone else's standard.
> 
> For bjj and any other skill \craft, it's been happening for years, you may have just not known.



I've known about it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.


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## jezr74

Takai said:


> So George Orwell was right after all.
> 
> The Kinect might work well with exercise but, I don't think that it will have the accuracy need to correct MA movements. It might work as a supplement but, I really don't see it even being a good replacement for an instructor.



I have the first generation, and just use it sometimes for exercise if I'm playing with the kids, the new version has even better tracking and more accuracy. I think its pretty good for what it is, if it ever gets to the level to correct bad form, who knows, but is plausible. 

I'm guessing it could take you to a certain level, sure, but you can't beat human interaction.


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## jezr74

Hanzou said:


> I've known about it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.



I guess this is why new starters look and hold organizations in high regard, they believe that if they are organized there must be some sort of gold standard involved. It must be hard for people who do not know and are new to the arts to be able to discern whats good or bad MA.

I guess that's why sites like MT are good, at least they can spark conversation with instructors and students who are practicing, or are passionate about quality of MA.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> It's not the Gracie's, it's one branch of the Gracie family. I know for a fact that quite a few of the other branches of the family disagree with what they're doing, and have condemned it publicly. So much so that Gracie Torrance stated that they weren't really blue belts, but provisional blues. I guess that was only temporary.


Wait so gracie are not really gracies?  Whatever makes you sleep at night lol 


> A TKD McDojo offering Bjj isn't a Bjj McDojo, it's still a TKD Mcdojo.


Lol ok. It's got great big BJJ letters in the windows what do you think the average Joe off the street thinks is being taught?  


> I'd also be highly suspect of the Bjj taught there! but I digress. I'm not overly concerned with one or two frauds teaching Bjj, they'll be exposed soon enough. That's the great thing about Bjj, you have to fight to justify that cloth around your waist.  A visiting blue belt Jiujitero tapping out brown and black belt instructors is a quick way to get your little McDojo closed forever.


nonsense what makes you think a bluebell would be invited in to tap out browns that's how mcdojos work secondly it's not a few there are 5 near me so I'd imagine it's everywhere now I'm sure we are not the rare exception.


> However, Rener and Ryron Gracie are excellent practitioners and quality instructors. I guess I'm more disappointed than anything else.


Lol I'm sure they care what you think as they cash their fat paychecks from the Internet schools


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## Hanzou

ballen0351 said:


> Wait so gracie are not really gracies?



Where did I say that? I said its not "the Gracies" its one branch of the Gracie family. Various members teach different variations of their family art. Some veer into sports, others veer into self defense, while still others teach a combination along with the martial arts.



> nonsense what makes you think a bluebell would be invited in to tap out browns that's how mcdojos work



That's how Bjj works. If a school doesn't allow students from another Bjj school to train with them, then people will begin to suspect something. There's also the competition side of things. If your school is sucking horribly at the competitions, people will begin to notice. Also good luck maintaining a healthy student population if your school doesn't compete.

In short, its very difficult to prop up a quality lacking Bjj school for any long period of time.



> secondly it's not a few there are 5 near me so I'd imagine it's everywhere now I'm sure we are not the rare exception.



How exactly do you know that those schools are McDojos?



> Lol I'm sure they care what you think as they cash their fat paychecks from the Internet schools



Not really the point.


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## ballen0351

Hanzou said:


> Where did I say that? I said its not "the Gracies" its one branch of the Gracie family. Various members teach different variations of their family art. Some veer into sports, others veer into self defense, while still others teach a combination along with the martial arts.


Right so like I said go tell the Gracie's they are destroying BJJ 



> That's how Bjj works. If a school doesn't allow students from another Bjj school to train with them, then people will begin to suspect something. There's also the competition side of things. If your school is sucking horribly at the competitions, people will begin to notice. Also good luck maintaining a healthy student population if your school doesn't compete.
> 
> In short, its very difficult to prop up a quality lacking Bjj school for any long period of time.


Lol ok.  Look you can stick your head in the sand if you want but watered down BJJ is here and it will get worse.  It's happened to EVERY martial art flavor if the Month.  When it gets popular people are going to exploit it to make a buck.  I can now sign up online and earn a blue belt with stripes from a gracie school and when I watched his sales pitch they plan on expanding it all the way to black belt and instructor certification all online.  They claim I would never even need to step foot in a dojo.  It's here and it's only going to get worse as popularity grows. 


> How exactly do you know that those schools are McDojos?


I don't for sure I do know a few months ago they only taught TKD or only were crossfit gyms and now they all somehow found a way to teach BJJ.  I personally know one gym owner that had a blue belt in BJJ and now in less then 6 to 8 months has a brown belt and his own MMA school where he mixes BJJ and TKD.  
So I'm taking a wild guess that it's probably not on part with a few of the really good BJJ and MMA gyms around here.  


> Not really the point.


No but it is the point.  Money is why they do it.  Money is what will water down BJJ just like it did Karate, TKD, Krav Maga, Kung fu, each became the flavor of the month over the last 50 years each reigning supreme for a decade or so until so many schools popped up that it over saturated the market and watered it down.  There are still really good schools out there for each of those arts and there are very bad ones.  At the end of the day who cares as long as your happy.  And I don't care if people train in a Mcdojo if they are happy it's none of my business.  Mcdojos are not bad they serve a purpose and if people like going then great. If Online BJJ makes people happy who cares they don't need to answer to me or you about how they spend their free time


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## Takai

jezr74 said:


> I'm guessing it could take you to a certain level, sure, but you can't beat human interaction.



Agreed.


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## Transk53

tshadowchaser said:


> I am not up to date on all the apps and stuff one can get online or by their phones but without true hands on instruction by a competent instructor who can correct your mistakes how can you you get quality instruction. At some point do you not need actual contact with someone that knows what they are doing to improve what you are doing or think you are doing
> 
> aside form that what is kinect?  as I said i'm a primitive



It is device that picks up movement via camera that captures a persons movement as you play a dancing game for example. You do need quite a bit of room though, if clumsy like me lol.


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## Transk53

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I just cannot see them awarding anyone a belt from online training.*  I have met some of the current generation of Blue Belts training at some academies and frankly some are not very impressive!  Sorry but back in the day it was on average closer to two and a half to three years to get a blue belt.  Online training, blue belts in a year of training, etc. is starting to water down BJJ.  In the end unfortunately it is the wave of the future due to the money involved!!!  Never liked it when Rorion started this and unfortunately it has continued and probably will continue to it's natural progression. (online black belt)  You simply cannot learn online well as you will miss all the fundamental nuances that you will learn from a live instructor.  Online training, dvd's, books, etc. are all great and serve a great benefit for someone using them as a supplement to their regular training with a live instructor!!!  *By themselves as the sole source they are not so good.*



Nor can I fella, and you are quite right. Obviously being an instructor you passionate about your art, and again quite right too. However, as you alluded to, if for example you live right out in the sticks like Yorkshire, the app has some merit. If it was structured in such a way that a belt could not be awarded, at least some one could learn the basics of whatever, if they could not get to a class on a regular basis. Even Microsoft realised that the X-Box had more potential that a frag fest machine


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yes as a supplement to training with a live instructor videos, books, dvd's etc. are great.  Just as the sole source of learning it is not so good as you will miss those subtle nuances that makes some thing work.  So if someone lived in the sticks I would advise them to find a school and drive an hour or two to train when they could and supplement their training watching videos over material they have learned in class/in person or a seminar so that they can still feel in the flow of the training.  Used like that it works out fine.  I have lots of IRT practitioners that use books, dvd's, online videos to supplement their training.  Which is good.  Just utilizing it as the sole method of learning IRT would be not so effective!


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## BamBamx8

I would quit the school.Can't see how you would learn it correctly online.Its like when I did carpentry,You can't learn it in school but on the job.On paper it may look good but real work you have to make adjustments.


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## Chrisoro

Gracie University changed the grading procedure a while back, before this thread was even started. The practice that they have now, is that you can get a "technical blue belt" from an online evaluation, but in order to get the official blue belt, you have to be evaluated in person by an instructor connected to, or certified by the Gracie Academy, to ensure the quality of the official belt holders.

The gradings for each of the individual stripes on the blue belt can then be taken trough online evaluation, but for purple belt and up, you have to be evaluated in person again. And the online "technical belt" only applies to blue belt, meaning that there is no "technical purple belt", and that every potential purple belt and above has to be evaluated in person.






Close up of the label on the technical blue belt as it looks now, minimizing potential for misunderstandings.


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## Chrisoro

Here is a video of a pure Gracie University 2 stripe blue belt rolling, btw.


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## jezr74

Evan tanner taught himself using a VCR in a cabin, imagine what driven people are doing these days with online sessions. And then you get garage groups like the GU encourage, I think it's really good culture and martial community that's being built. Opens a lot of doors for some people that don't have normal access.


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## msmitht

Never seen an online blue belt that could hold their own. I been in bjj for about 14 years. I know a lot of bjj black belts from various gyms. We all agree that online belts are a joke. Yes, you can learn the basic movements but without a trained partner and a black belt guiding you there is no way to learn proper reactions when your partner resists/shifts weight/changes grips/etc...
I like the idea of online training but only as a guide to go along with proper classes.


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## jezr74

msmitht said:


> Never seen an online blue belt that could hold their own. I been in bjj for about 14 years. I know a lot of bjj black belts from various gyms. We all agree that online belts are a joke. Yes, you can learn the basic movements but without a trained partner and a black belt guiding you there is no way to learn proper reactions when your partner resists/shifts weight/changes grips/etc...
> I like the idea of online training but only as a guide to go along with proper classes.




What about technical belts with a garage of people fighting constantly, but just not in an established gym?


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## msmitht

try to imagine a group of white belts who don't know anything about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. without anybody to guide them they would spend countless hours on techniques that they think might work, and they might on an untrained individual, or it might be setting himself up to get reversed. now if they're in the garage and they have somebody who has trained and know the basics well, say a purple belt, then it is different. You could learn a lot but still possibly not see the whole picture. Make sense?
as for following the videos alone, even in a group setting,  you don't have the person there to tell you what happens if you do it wrong or they block what you are trying to do. you might not have the angle right, or you might not have pulled your hip out enough. Your grip might not be deep enough. Who is,to tell them to not grab inside the sleeve or pants?
Too many possibilities for injury or worse, learning something you think will help you in a fight only to wind up in a lot of pain cause you forgot or didn't know a crucial step.


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## jezr74

msmitht said:


> try to imagine a group of white belts who don't know anything about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. without anybody to guide them they would spend countless hours on techniques that they think might work, and they might on an untrained individual, or it might be setting himself up to get reversed. now if they're in the garage and they have somebody who has trained and know the basics well, say a purple belt, then it is different. You could learn a lot but still possibly not see the whole picture. Make sense?
> as for following the videos alone, even in a group setting,  you don't have the person there to tell you what happens if you do it wrong or they block what you are trying to do. you might not have the angle right, or you might not have pulled your hip out enough. Your grip might not be deep enough. Who is,to tell them to not grab inside the sleeve or pants?
> Too many possibilities for injury or worse, learning something you think will help you in a fight only to wind up in a lot of pain cause you forgot or didn't know a crucial step.



I do understand the limitations as your describing. I think the middle ground can be missed a lot where people can learn basics, and they may be happy to stick with that. I know as a kid growing up, the little basics I was taught by non-professionals went a long way.

Anything beyond may require formally trained or some mixed experience people coming to you home gym, which for these type of people in general is the case. A lot appear to have some backgrounds in other arts.

EDIT: BTW, I do believe in formal training. But I find modern learning methods interesting, since I think its something that is dismissed to quickly in most cases.


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## panda

In my opinion and experience (competitive judo) - if you're doing it for exercise or a hobby - online\book\video training is fine (real training is always better). 
If you're planning on doing actual fighting in a ring or for your life, I wouldn't count on online martial arts... (would you go to an online schooled mechanic? dentist?...)


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## Tony Dismukes

panda said:


> (would you go to an online schooled *mechanic*? dentist?...)


I'm not sure that's the best example. There are plenty of self-taught mechanics out there and some of them are quite good.


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## panda

they are not exactly "self-taught" - not like you are talking about these guys in white belts training with each other.
these "selfers" usually start with something they picked up around them (father,friends etc.) then tinkered around with cars, and then probably started working somewere with professional people who fixed the things they did wrong.

as for the guys that keep being self-taught by themselves - well, there's alot of "fail" videos in youtube staring these guys...


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## Tony Dismukes

Honestly, I think the biggest limitation in training at a Gracie Garage with the online curriculum is much more the quality and quantity of training partners rather than the absence of an in-person instructor.

Obviously, having a good instructor on hand to provide nuanced feedback is extremely helpful. (As a BJJ black belt who is working hard to be a good instructor, I would say that.  ) However, the honest truth is that there are plenty of instructors out there who are terrible at providing detailed individual feedback, even though they may be skilled practitioners. Somehow they still often manage to produce competent students. Furthermore, there are professional fighters who started out leaning jiu-jitsu from video tapes. Heck, the Gracies themselves started out with minimal instruction and mostly taught themselves.

The Gracie University instructional videos not only go far beyond what most instructors ever show in terms of technical detail, they also place the individual techniques in context of the larger art, clearly explain core concepts and principles, and repeatedly go over how to train and drill most productively and how to be a good, safe, helpful training partner. 

If you have a Gracie Garage with a good sized training group full of dedicated, disciplined students, preferably at least some with a decent degree of athletic talent and maybe some prior wrestling or martial arts experience, then I have no doubt you could turn out some solid blue belts following the online curriculum. GU has posted some video of students that backs up my opinion on that. (I also personally know one GU blue belt who is totally deserving of the rank. That said, he has spent at least a little time training at actual schools.)

The problem is, most online students will not have a large group of talented, disciplined training partners. If it's just you and your spouse or your couch-potato neighbor, then you are highly unlikely to develop more than the ability to demonstrate the techniques on a compliant partner at best.

I've learned some good things via direct feedback from an instructor. I've learned a whole lot more via the feedback of grappling hundreds of training partners - jiujiteiros, judoka, wrestlers, samboists, MMA fighters, karateka, big guys, little guys, super-strong guys, super-flexible guys, super-fast guys, aggressive guys, sneaky guys, young folks, old folks, and more. Most people training online won't have that opportunity.

As far as the online promotions go ... the no-stripe blue belt isn't such a big deal, because it seems to match the promotion criteria for students training in person at the Gracie Academy. That rank is based not on sparring skill, but on demonstrated competence in the basic Gracie Combatives ("self-defense") curriculum. My understanding is that Gracie Academy white belts don't even spar. (They do practice "reflex development drills" which are only semi-free form and are focused on developing specific skills.)

I would have a larger issue with promotions beyond that point that are supposed to represent a certain degree of sparring skill (among other things). I think that would be a lot harder to evaluate based on a single video. I think they made the right decision to require in-person evaluations for the higher belts.


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## jezr74

Well said Tony, I know where people are coming from with the need for physical instruction. 

But as Panda pointed out, a lot are recreational and not training for the ring. Would make a good case study, since I'm between gyms I might start training locally at a jj school that offers late night classes, and get my brother to train GU and see how our learning compares.


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## Tony Dismukes

jezr74 said:


> Well said Tony, I know where people are coming from with the need for physical instruction.
> 
> But as Panda pointed out, a lot are recreational and not training for the ring. Would make a good case study, since I'm between gyms I might start training locally at a jj school that offers late night classes, and get my brother to train GU and see how our learning compares.


Your brother will need a consistent training partner. You can't do the GU training solo.


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## msmitht

I would only use their videos as a guide while training at an academy with someone, preferably a black belt or higher, who knows the whole system. Otherwise you are getting bits and pieces. The trained eye sees all. Untrained eyes as only what is in front of them.


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## kohamy32

I dont like the idea of learning a martial art online, there is no feedback or correction. Especially for a art like bjj where feedback from a live partner is one of the most important points! Definately real life lessons for the win


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## jezr74

I thought the whole point was to have training partners? In other threads with BJJ topic, some have talked about the fact it's live rolling is an advantage since it works or it doesn't.


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## Tony Dismukes

Yes, as previously stated, the online GU program requires that you have at least one training partner (and preferably more) to practice the moves and drills with. Rener and Ryron spend a lot of time explaining how to be a good training partner and how to help each other learn.


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## msmitht

Omg! We had an online blue belt come in today for his first class. He understands hip escape, breakfall, rolling and the basic positions. He had no concept of free training with resistance. He did know how to replace very well. After class He asked for a white belt and we have him one with one stripe.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I am afraid you will see continuous videos in the future showing a white belt beating an online blue belt easily.

Just like this one:


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## Chrisoro

I don't think the issue here is that the person recieved his instruction online, as the Gracie University instruction is easily the most detailed and pedagogically correct instruction I have ever recieved. And I have trained with several of the original dirty dozen in person, and also one world champion, so this isn't about lack of experience with other forms of instruction.

What this proves, once again, is the importance of regular sparring/rolling, and how a blue belt(or any martial arts rank, really) recieved on the basis of technical demonstrations alone will not be able to beat a blue belt (or even a semi-experienced white belt) in BJJ sparring/competition without any experience of actually, you know, sparring. I think you would get the exact same result if you had a brick and mortar BJJ school that didn't have any sparring before blue belt, and only relied on a formal, technical belt grading instead of grading based on performance.


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## RowdyAz

Transk53 said:


> The building blocks are already in place really. There is the Les Mills Bodypump and I imagine others too. Would be quite exciting with many possibilities.


Can I get fries and a coke with that.


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## Transk53

RowdyAz said:


> Can I get fries and a coke with that.



No, that is so unhealthy lol. Could have a healthy dose of GTA V though


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## Chrisoro

I'll have a rear naked coke, please.


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## jezr74

Chrisoro said:


> I don't think the issue here is that the person recieved his instruction online, as the Gracie University instruction is easily the most detailed and pedagogically correct instruction I have ever recieved. And I have trained with several of the original dirty dozen in person, and also one world champion, so this isn't about lack of experience with other forms of instruction.



So you can learn bjj online, just may not be at the same speed and accuracy as school based?




Chrisoro said:


> What this proves, once again, is the importance of regular sparring/rolling, and how a blue belt(or any martial arts rank, really) recieved on the basis of technical demonstrations alone will not be able to beat a blue belt (or even a semi-experienced white belt) in BJJ sparring/competition without any experience of actually, you know, sparring. I think you would get the exact same result if you had a brick and mortar BJJ school that didn't have any sparring before blue belt, and only relied on a formal, technical belt grading instead of grading based on performance.



I don't think anyone was disputing that more sparring is paramount.

But if we keep to the basis that not all people are equal or skill\learning levels, we could say that the person in Brian's video, while not up to scratch in live rolling with a high white belt, he does posses some skill from an online source, potentially some will be superior to others of the same rank. I believe there are accounts of online belts winning comps as well, and no doubt plenty of records of higher belts being beaten by lower belts of brick and mortars schools as well.

So the quality of the curriculum\teaching and the tenacity\athleticism\understanding of the student will produce the end result, regardless if online or school taught? I guess I don't see it so black and white.


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## Tony Dismukes




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## Hanzou

Hmmm. Surprisingly I agree with most of that. I think the structured curriculum you find in many Gracie academies is a step up from the random technique of the day, and the hard rolling of the past. I don't agree with waiting until blue belt to start rolling, but I do agree that many guys do go off and look for techniques to stop Bjj in a roll, and not to stop a SD situation. That's exactly what I did when I first started to avoid feeling embarrassed for getting tapped out during practice.

I like the fact that my academy does drills where guys are getting punched while grappling, and not just letting two white belts smash each other with Bjj.


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## Buka

Tony Dismukes said:


>



I almost didn't watch this vid, I had spent way too much time on the computer yesterday and had no desire to watch another forty five minutes of any damn thing. I'm really glad I watched it.

I watched it because I was curious about the online jits program, at least as it pertains to blue belt. Even though one of my guys does it with students at his school and has been for a while, I've never actually seen it as I only go there to teach striking. (I know, I'm a damn chump, what can I say?)

But what I got out of it was one hell of a surprise that had nothing to do with the online program. If you told me the Gracies were going to radically (IMO) change anything I would have told you "you don't know the Gracies". The whole "not rolling from the git go" thing blew my mind. While done for business/marketing purposes, (again, IMO) it really does improve their art. And I mean dramatically.

Makes me rethink everything I do in teaching striking. Sometimes I hate this damn forum.


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## Chester Wright

Hanzou said:


> Okay, I grew to accept Gjj Torrance giving blue belts online. No biggie. You get your blue belt, and then you come in and go the rest of the way to purple and beyond. However, now they're saying you can get your second stripe online as well. This really bothers me, because its an indication that they may take this beyond blue and to higher belt rankings.
> 
> I just can't get behind this. Looking at the Blue Belts I train with, there's no way they could be as proficient as they are if their training was online. Maybe I'm too old school, and just feel that in arts like Bjj (and most MA in general) you need that direct feedback from your instructor while you're training. Watching a video, mimicking movements, and sending in a tape for evaluation just seems wrong to me.
> 
> What do you think?


It cheapens Jiu Jitsu. Rorion's kids are just trying to make money.


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## BamBamx8

ballen0351 said:


> Wave of the future man.  He said right in the clip he can't wait for the purple belt test.  So I assume at some point soon you can get a purple belt online.  I don't know anything about the actual classes I've never taken then but I think online training is the future.  Agree with it or not it just is you can do anything on line now.  Banking, doctor visits, college classes, etc.  If they do a good job keeping the standards up and have a check and balance system like live feedback from actual instructors then it could work.  Is it the best method probably not but is it better then not training at all?  I don't know if it's quality  material then some is better then none.  If it's crap well there are crap brick and mortar schools to so...


I seriously consider online classes when they learn to grapple online.


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## Andrew Green

Hanzou said:


> Like Brian said, it waters down the art. It matters to us because we care about Bjj and don't want it to become a mcdojo with 10 year old black belts, and chumps wearing higher ranking belts who can't grapple their way out of a paper bag.




The art is going to survive and get stronger regardless of what happens with rank.  Todays champions are far more skilled then those of 15 years ago.  You could award everyone a black belt the first time they step on the mat and the art isn't going to get watered down when it comes to competition.  

Rank is just one of those things that people are always going to have different opinions on.  You'll have groups that award rank pretty quickly based on one set of criteria, and other groups that award it really slow based on completely different criteria.  Maybe the online ranking is one side of the bell curve, but on the other side is guys who put off promotions for the purpose of winning divisions.

In the end I don't think it matters.  Just train, forget about the colour of everyones belt and pay attention to what they actually know, there might be correlation, but the bigger the picture you look at the fuzzier that correlation is going to get.  If BJJ continues to grow I suspect we will see even more spread in the criteria used for belts.


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