# Wing Chun Concepts Applied to Other Arts



## dlcox (Aug 21, 2014)

Many styles of Wing Chun have undoubtedly been augmented with other systems, a few that come to mind are Chan Family, Pao Fa Lien and Weng Chun. Some say this dilutes the conceptual nature and purity of Wing Chun others say it is evolution. It is the latter group I would like to hear from. 

Personally I think that Wing Chun theory and concepts lend themselves nicely to a myriad of TMA systems and that Wing Chun can benefit from being augmented with other styles. I would like to hear what your pairings would be and why.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2014)

Vertical fist punching is used more in MMA due to the gaps presented by the smaller gloves.

There are also hand trapping concepts used either while striking or hand fighting in the grapple.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E9-Mo-cVI


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## KPM (Aug 22, 2014)

dlcox said:


> Many styles of Wing Chun have undoubtedly been augmented with other systems, a few that come to mind are Chan Family, Pao Fa Lien and Weng Chun. Some say this dilutes the conceptual nature and purity of Wing Chun others say it is evolution. It is the latter group I would like to hear from.
> 
> Personally I think that Wing Chun theory and concepts lend themselves nicely to a myriad of TMA systems and that Wing Chun can benefit from being augmented with other styles. I would like to hear what your pairings would be and why.



I think I fit into the "evolution" group, though I would be somewhat conservation in what I "evolved."   I think Wing Chun is both a conceptual approach to fighting as well as an actual "style" of fighting.  They go together.  If you try to do Wing Chun techniques without understanding the conceptual basis of the system then what you end up doing likely won't be anything like recognizable Wing Chun.  You could very well end with hard swinging Tan Sau's and rigid punches that look something like Wing Chun Karate!  Likewise if you take Wing Chun concepts and apply them to something else....like MMA....it might very well be an improvement on MMA, but it doesn't instantly become Wing Chun!  It might be MMA with a Wing Chun flavor, but if you are ducking punches like a boxer rather than blocking, fighting up on your toes and bent forward at the waist, and throwing flurries of hooks....then it ain't Wing Chun!

Personally I have been "evolving" my Wing Chun a bit by incorporating things from Silat and Kali.  To me, these things fit the best within a Wing Chun structure and conceptual approach than something like ....Ninjutsu, Karate, or even Muay Thai would fit.   Don't get me wrong, there is wide diversity in SEAsian martial arts just as any other type!   The Silat I am referring to comes from Maul Mornie as well as the things that Michael Janich has come up with in his "Damithurt Silat."  These have various takedowns, throws, and joint manipulations that I find fit very well with my Wing Chun, and some good ground-fighting methods that Wing Chun lacks completely.  I also use Janich's weapons method or "Martial Blade Concepts" which is derived from Kali.   I approach Wing Chun as a combatives method, not a sparring method.   Learning to use a tactical folder or a stick is just WAY more practical than learning to use a pair of butterfly knives.

But I am not just blending things together haphazardly.  I tend to keep them separated when I teach it so my students know what is coming for where.  This way if they themselves chose to teach "pure" Wing Chun to their students, they can easily do so without confusion.


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## dlcox (Aug 22, 2014)

KPM said:


> I think I fit into the "evolution" group, though I would be somewhat conservation in what I "evolved."   I think Wing Chun is both a conceptual approach to fighting as well as an actual "style" of fighting.  They go together.  If you try to do Wing Chun techniques without understanding the conceptual basis of the system then what you end up doing likely won't be anything like recognizable Wing Chun.  You could very well end with hard swinging Tan Sau's and rigid punches that look something like Wing Chun Karate!  Likewise if you take Wing Chun concepts and apply them to something else....like MMA....it might very well be an improvement on MMA, but it doesn't instantly become Wing Chun!  It might be MMA with a Wing Chun flavor, but if you are ducking punches like a boxer rather than blocking, fighting up on your toes and bent forward at the waist, and throwing flurries of hooks....then it ain't Wing Chun!
> 
> Personally I have been "evolving" my Wing Chun a bit by incorporating things from Silat and Kali.  To me, these things fit the best within a Wing Chun structure and conceptual approach than something like ....Ninjutsu, Karate, or even Muay Thai would fit.   Don't get me wrong, there is wide diversity in SEAsian martial arts just as any other type!   The Silat I am referring to comes from Maul Mornie as well as the things that Michael Janich has come up with in his "Damithurt Silat."  These have various takedowns, throws, and joint manipulations that I find fit very well with my Wing Chun, and some good ground-fighting methods that Wing Chun lacks completely.  I also use Janich's weapons method or "Martial Blade Concepts" which is derived from Kali.   I approach Wing Chun as a combatives method, not a sparring method.   Learning to use a tactical folder or a stick is just WAY more practical than learning to use a pair of butterfly knives.
> 
> But I am not just blending things together haphazardly.  I tend to keep them separated when I teach it so my students know what is coming for where.  This way if they themselves chose to teach "pure" Wing Chun to their students, they can easily do so without confusion.



Hi KPM,

I tend to agree with you on the compatibility of Wing Chun with arts like Arnis, Eskrima, Silat etc. Though I don't have much exposure to them I can see how nicely they would potentially fit. I agree with the assessment on the knife work, Wing Chun's knives are like a cliff notes of the Filipino methods. I always thought that Isshin Ryu Karate and Wing Chun would be a good mix. Conceptually they are very similar especially in structure. Isshin Ryu is based on the older Okinawan method of body structure that was changed when Karate went mainstream and was heavily influenced by JMA. I personally think that Wing Chun has a tendency to promote the practitioner to be to soft and flaccid resulting in a lack of power delivery. IMO this stems from too much conceptualization and stylized Chi Sau practice, I'm sure backlash will follow that statement . Isshin Ryu is pared down compared to Wing Chun but I think that the salient points are there. It's also a "harder" approach and IMO adds strength and power in certain areas that are lacking in Wing Chun. Some may not agree with me and say that I haven't learned "real" Wing Chun and my reply is that those individuals obviously haven't learned the system well enough to see it's deficiencies. No system is complete and all can be elevated to strengthen their weak points.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

KPM said:


> I tend to keep them separated when I teach it so my students know what is coming for where.  This way if they themselves chose to teach "pure" Wing Chun to their students, they can easily do so without confusion.


I don't teach my students where a certain principle may come from. As long as they understand how to use it, where it may come from is not important. This way, they will never have to argue with other people that "This is your style ..., this is my style ...".

It's easy to see that the WC "center line theory - guard your center from inside out" is applied in the following clip.


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## dlcox (Aug 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't teach my students where a certain principle may come from. As long as they understand how to use it, where it may come from is not important. This way, they will never have to argue with other people that "This is your style ..., this is my style ...".
> 
> It's easy to see that the WC "center line theory - guard your center from inside out" is applied in the following clip.



I like this Big Fist concept John, very similar to Tibetan White Crane's technique called Bodhisattva Worships Buddha. Simple, direct and practical. Kind of a Wing Chun meets Chang Quan meets Shaui Jiao vibe.


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## KPM (Aug 22, 2014)

* I always thought that Isshin Ryu Karate and Wing Chun would be a good mix. Conceptually they are very similar especially in structure. Isshin Ryu is based on the older Okinawan method of body structure that was changed when Karate went mainstream and was heavily influenced by JMA. *

---That's an interesting thought!  If you consider that the older Okinawan method was derived from White Crane, which was also likely a predecessor to Wing Chun, then it would makes sense there would be similar structural concepts.

*I personally think that Wing Chun has a tendency to promote the practitioner to be to soft and flaccid resulting in a lack of power delivery. IMO this stems from too much conceptualization and stylized Chi Sau practice, I'm sure backlash will follow that statement . 
*
---I tend to agree with you.  For some, Wing Chun has become much to "Tai chi-like" (meaning mainstream Tai Chi and not the real deal).  And you are likely correct that it stems from too much stylized Chi Sau practice.  Everyone pulls punches and strikes in Chi Sau.  At least in sparring you put on gear and actually try to hit the other guy!


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## KPM (Aug 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't teach my students where a certain principle may come from. As long as they understand how to use it, where it may come from is not important. This way, they will never have to argue with other people that "This is your style ..., this is my style ...".



Well John, you illustrate one of my points from above very nicely.  You use a key Wing Chun concept but apply it in a very non-Wing Chun-like way.  ;-)


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2014)

Fits really great with Filipino martial arts. Of course, the best-known example of augmenting Wing Chun is surely Jeet Kune Do!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

KPM said:


> use a key Wing Chun concept but apply it in a very non-Wing Chun-like way.  ;-)



Most of the time, our problems came from other MA systems. By looking at "what problem that we need to solve" first, and then looking for "what solution that my style can offer" is called "backward search" in the area of artificial intelligent "problem solving".


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## KPM (Aug 23, 2014)

arnisador said:


> Of course, the best-known example of augmenting Wing Chun is surely Jeet Kune Do!



No, I would rather say that JKD is an example of Wing Chun concepts applied to another art, not another art used to augment Wing Chun.   JKD does retain some Wing Chun techniques, depending upon who is doing it.  But I don't think most people would consider JKD to be a "type" or "style" of Wing Chun.  To me, JKD is more like western boxing augmented with Wing Chun concepts.  But I will admit that JKD represents a sort of "gray" area, because again, it can vary depending upon whose JKD we are talking about!  Some stick to a strong Wing Chun root, some are looking much more MMA, and some really bring out a Kali influence.  But even those that stick to a strong Wing Chun root (like Ted Wong's group and Lamar Davis) likely wouldn't consider their JKD to be a type of Wing Chun.


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## KPM (Aug 23, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time, our problems came from other MA systems. By looking at "what problem that we need to solve" first, and then looking for "what solution that my style can offer" is called "backward search" in the area of artificial intelligent "problem solving".



This is true, and is probably the key concept for why any martial art needs to evolve.  Times change.  Other fighting styles evolve and change.  New fighting styles emerge.  The type of fighter a Wing Chun guy may face today is different than what Leung Jan likely faced back in his day.


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## dlcox (Aug 23, 2014)

KPM said:


> * I always thought that Isshin Ryu Karate and Wing Chun would be a good mix. Conceptually they are very similar especially in structure. Isshin Ryu is based on the older Okinawan method of body structure that was changed when Karate went mainstream and was heavily influenced by JMA. *
> 
> ---That's an interesting thought!  If you consider that the older Okinawan method was derived from White Crane, which was also likely a predecessor to Wing Chun, then it would makes sense there would be similar structural concepts.
> 
> ...



One of the major contentions I have with Chi Sau is the platform most practitioners base it on. To me the rolling hands platform is highly stylized. I think of it more conceptually based where many view it as law based where one is not allowed to wander beyond the parameters it sets forth. To me this forces one to enter into combat from a fixed position and defend from awkward bridge placement. Now this isn't necessarily a bad thing as I believe that is the purpose of the exercise, however, it's just that it's a drill, and a drill should allow for variance on entrance and position. It should not be a "two party" gig. What I mean by this is the two standard positions people take when performing the exercise. It's unrealistic in actual combat no one engages in a fight from those positions! They are only ever employed in the chi sau practice. What ever happened to employing the concepts found in all three forms? Where in the rulebook does it state that we cannot enter into spontaneous chi sau from a position of recovery? Personally I prefer a 3 step method of chi sau exercise, Single, Rolling and Circling. Circling chi sau is rarely engaged in Wing Chun. It's an older method that is seen in other crane based systems and can be found in branches of Hung Gar, White Crane, SPM, 5 Ancestors etc. It is similar in concept to Tai Chi push hands but the starting position is where both practitioners begin in an inside outside double Fuk Sau position. This allows both practitioners to be even without one having an advantage over the other, it also allows for greater variance in techniques employed IMO. This method was all but overwritten when the rolling platform was introduced.

Now full circle back to the topic. It is this circling hand that lends itself to augmentation as one would not be violating the "rules" laid forth by rolling hands. It allows the practitioner to begin close or far away and from several different positions. It also leads into grappling and throwing scenarios from far simpler and more natural positions. Detractors may say that this is the whole purpose of rolling hands, to make you work and react quickly in unnatural positions, this is true, but why should it stop there? If we are constantly playing defense and recovery when do we have time for offense? We are already behind the 8 ball so to speak. The circling hand position allows us to maximize our efficiency and power, and this is where augmentation with similar arts can be of benefit. When applying techniques and positions in a modified manner we can draw from the power development and structure employed by other arts. Again detractors will say "You're not doing it correctly then." My response is this. Look at all the various Wing Chun branches. Between all the lineages there is great variance in technique, employment, power generation, theory etc. Why is this? Because what works for one individual will not always work for another. Different body structures, athleticism, strength and intellect will greatly affect outcome of any given technique. To me looking elsewhere to maximize potential is not a bad thing, no one system has all the answers. This doesn't mean that one needs to outright change, eliminate or re-vamp the system but simply augment their personal weaknesses. This is how the art can be evolved in a positive manner.


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## dlcox (Aug 23, 2014)

KPM said:


> This is true, and is probably the key concept for why any martial art needs to evolve.  Times change.  Other fighting styles evolve and change.  New fighting styles emerge.  The type of fighter a Wing Chun guy may face today is different than what Leung Jan likely faced back in his day.



This is most likely due to access. In today's world information is widely available. Anyone can find information and instruction on anything they wish. IMO this isn't necessarily a good thing. Before global communications and mass media information and instruction was more difficult to come by. Knowledge is power. It's not that people 150 years ago were bad fighters it's that they weren't always privy to all the information out there. Things were kept much closer to the vest. We also have to keep in mind that in today's world professional fighting is a full time job, back then people still had to work a job even if they fought often, sponsors weren't available, neither were steroids


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## dlcox (Aug 23, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most of the time, our problems came from other MA systems. By looking at "what problem that we need to solve" first, and then looking for "what solution that my style can offer" is called "backward search" in the area of artificial intelligent "problem solving".



Reverse engineering is an awesome method of problem solving and understanding of how something works and allows one to see anything that could potentially be improved upon.


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