# Why is the Bong Sau never first?



## Seeker (Aug 4, 2008)

I keep hearing this "maxim" but no one has explained the reasoning behind it. At least not in a way that I understood.  

Seems like the bong would be a good thing if caught off guard and your arms are down at your sides, the way they commonly are throughout the day.

So, anyone know the reasoning behind this?


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## qwksilver61 (Aug 4, 2008)

I  don't know either,but I've used it to deflect just about anything like you said when "caught unawares" but only as a deflection and not how I would imagine the proper execution of bong-sau.anyone else?


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't think there is any hard and fast rule, however I remember my teacher emphasizing the bong sau coming out of the tan sau. An opponents incoming fist/arm meets the tan sau and the force of the punching arm rolls the tan sau into the bong sau. Its just how we practiced it. How your using it is fine.


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## mook jong man (Aug 4, 2008)

Seeker said:


> I keep hearing this "maxim" but no one has explained the reasoning behind it. At least not in a way that I understood.
> 
> Seems like the bong would be a good thing if caught off guard and your arms are down at your sides, the way they commonly are throughout the day.
> 
> So, anyone know the reasoning behind this?


 
Never heard that one before , i use what ever is the best at the time , you should be the master of Wing Chun don't let Wing Chun be the master of you.


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## graychuan (Aug 5, 2008)

Wordz from my Sifu...




			
				Ali. R said:
			
		

> This is why the bong sao is never first; because no one really starts off with a jab or straight punch to the midsection, they mostly start off with a headshot&#8230;
> The bong sao structure in most &#8216;Yip Man&#8217; lineages doesn&#8217;t cover the head, we have other blocks that will work out just fine, the bong sao will work wonders with midsection defense too, where it helps that structure work the best in that position as most wing chun forms dictate...
> 
> Ali Rahim.


 
Hope this helps.


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## Seeker (Aug 5, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Wordz from my Sifu...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you graychun, I saw this on the other forum and I appreciate the input. But in our 'lineage' which come down from Ip Ching, we use the bong sau to defend against head attacks. Maybe the maxim may have originated with Ip Man, and then carried over into other lineages? It's never been stated that the bs does not come first in our kwoon, but I have seen this in other places, books.

In this video, Sifu Grados states that the bs is secondary, I don't know why, he states that bs is not a block, but a deflection. It looks to be doing the same thing as any other shape in WC. I don't know what his lineage is. Heres the video from his site... if it works.  
http://www.sifugrados.com/movies/tom/1-bong_sao


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## graychuan (Aug 5, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Thank you graychun, I saw this on the other forum and I appreciate the input. But in our 'lineage' which come down from Ip Ching, we use the bong sau to defend against head attacks. Maybe the maxim may have originated with Ip Man, and then carried over into other lineages? It's never been stated that the bs does not come first in our kwoon, but I have seen this in other places, books.
> 
> In this video, Sifu Grados states that the bs is secondary, I don't know why, he states that bs is not a block, but a deflection. It looks to be doing the same thing as any other shape in WC. I don't know what his lineage is. Heres the video from his site... if it works.
> http://www.sifugrados.com/movies/tom/1-bong_sao


 

Yes, good explaination about the bong sao being secondary...but all of those attacks were to the chest on that demo. To each his own but in keeping with the principles and all....the bong-sao just doesnt feel like its supported by structure when the elbow is above the collarbone and the reaction time or followthrough is so much longer from that high. In our particular lineage the upper limit dealing with the Bong Sao is the elbow going no higher than the collarbone. This way the elbow doesnt have to 're-chum' itself out before a technique rolls off the bong. Instead the elbow staying under the collarbone maintains its chum and transitions smoothly... like in Sifu Grados' video. He is a baaaaaad man! Im always impressed with his stuff.


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## mook jong man (Aug 6, 2008)

I have been thinking about this some more maybe it could mean that the bong sau is a passive response and if we are prepared for the incoming strike our first choice should be a more aggressive counter like a tan sau. 

It could also mean that you try to counter with your tan sau first but the incoming force is to great and you have to re-direct with bong sau. 

Thats all i can think of i'm afraid, btw we also use high bong sau's for eg a round house punch directed to the head , to powerful for our dai sau so we convert the dai sau into a bong sau , pivot and re-direct the strike over our head , latch and side slash to throat. 

The other one is for heavy incoming straight punch to the head , try to pierce thru on the inside of his arm with tan sau , force is to great so re-direct with high bong sau , backed up with wu sau , pivot , latch and side slash to throat.


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## Seeker (Aug 6, 2008)

Thanks guys, this is what I was looking for. A practical MA should have practical answers and this forum has never let me down.

I have in the past used the bong in chi sau first, but I guess the chi sau punch and the punch with intent on taking your head off are two different creatures and this makes me re-evaluate doing what I am doing.


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## graychuan (Aug 6, 2008)

Not a problem, mane. 

 I would also like to reiterate that although I am a kempo artist of 14+ years, and a tai chi chuan artist of 9 years, I am only 2 years into Wing Chun. I do think my Sifu's skills are phenomenal and most of my training is personal training with him...I am still only a 2 year student of Wing Chun. I have also greatly benefited from this forum and the discussions. I learn as much from the questions presented as well as the answers we all come up with.

Love, peace and hair grease.


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## mook jong man (Aug 6, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Thanks guys, this is what I was looking for. A practical MA should have practical answers and this forum has never let me down.
> 
> I have in the past used the bong in chi sau first, but I guess the chi sau punch and the punch with intent on taking your head off are two different creatures and this makes me re-evaluate doing what I am doing.


 
Dont worry i always use to use it too , when i first started hand sparring , it didn't matter what the person did i would put up a right hand bong sau. 

I remember thinking this is magic , this stops everything and it worked great on people in my grade .

 But when i sparred somebody in a higher grade they saw right thru my little trick and immediately latched my bong sau down and nearly pulled my arm out of its socket lol .

 So the moral of the story is you don't want to stay in bong sau too long.


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## profesormental (Aug 6, 2008)

Greetings.

It is important to note that the bong sao is most effective when used with body movements and footwork.

Here is the thing.

If you examine the bong sao and experiment the structure of it and how much force and from where it can withstand effectively (maximal load bearing angles), then you can easily see where its strengths and weaknesses lie.

And it is NOT the best option for headshots with hurtful intent.

Although, you can use it as a manipulation technique afterward.

Yet all this depends on the body shifts and footwork used to create the effect.

It is a bit hard to explain on text, yet I hope this helps. There is a lot more to this!

Juan M. Mercado


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## Si-Je (Aug 6, 2008)

As far as I understand Bong Sau, you don't start off with it because it tends to collapse if the opponent's force is greater than your structure.
We use Bong Sau for head shots, and it works great, especially against a taller and stronger opponent.
But, again, this is also where we usually start off with Dai Sau.  Say, on a hook punch, step forward, Dai Sau and if the force is too great for your arm, you pivot and bong sau.

This usually puts the opponent's arm over my head (at his elbow), and as you step into them more you open them up for all kinds of shots.
If you start off with Bong Sau, you anticipate, and can more easily get collapsed and hit.
I think you usually would use Bong Sau off a straight punch more when you start getting into the advanced techniques, like arm locks and such.  But, I don't feel comfortable with that just yet.  A straight jab or punch is much faster than me using Bong Sau right off the bat.
Tau Sau would be much better for a straight punch, and again, if their force is great enough to start to collapse the structure of your tan sau, then pivot to bong sau.

When we use Bong Sau low, we call that Gong Sau.


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## matsu (Aug 7, 2008)

in my limited experience i have been taught so far, that bong is used as a deflection to turn the incoming strike, best when done with a turn.

but if hit right we have used it steadfast almost like a karate block,turning it into jut sau pushing against the striker and countering whilst pinning the original arm.

isnt there a youtube clip of i think sifu lee showing you how strong a correct bong is?

we are taught it is in correct stance a strong block but we rarely use it as such,
...................-in my limited experience


matsu


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## matsu (Aug 8, 2008)

hey guys
 coincidence.... last night we did lots of bongsau.

it is a strong block/deflection techniques when you use it as a strong attacking counter.. they strike you block forcing forward controlling the arm you connected with and tying him up with whatever next.

sifu says the bong is used at whatever height and direction the strike comes in at.

i still find it so weird that they are so many variations in one technique and sooo many trains of thought. the great thing about any forum like this, is that you learn what the other guys are doing and could incorporate into your own arsenal.

matsu


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## qwksilver61 (Aug 8, 2008)

Graychuan, digg the icon LOL! pimpy dude!


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## graychuan (Aug 9, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Graychuan, digg the icon LOL! pimpy dude!


 
Believe it or not...that is Bill Cosby...from the movie 'Let's Do It Again' as the NYC pimp Mongo Slade.


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## geezer (Aug 11, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I have been thinking about this some more maybe it could mean that the bong sau is a passive response and if we are prepared for the incoming strike our first choice should be a more aggressive counter like a tan sau.



I've _often_ heard variations of the "never lead off with bong sau" theme. The justification is that, as Mook pointed out, _Bong Sau is a defensive movement_ that does not lend itself to simutaneous defense and counter-attack as does tan-sau/punch, pak-sau/punch, fook-sau/punch, gaun-sau/ punch, or punch to deflect punch. In "fighting" WC/WT, you explode forward and lead with an attack. If your attacking arm meets superior force, you may deflect it with bong sau and then immediately follow with a fak-sau,  a punch, or other counter-strike. Although very fast, this is still a one-two movement. The ideal is to lead with an attack, or an attack and counter that is a simultaneous, one-beat movement. As for this saying, rather than being a hard and fast rule, I believe it is simply emphasizing the importance of efficiency and taking the offensive from the start. Think "straight blast" or "chain punching".


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## melry88 (Aug 12, 2008)

Hey everyone, I too saw the same question on another forum and there are some good posts about reasons to use a Bong Sau as a first block.  I actually saw someone try to use it as an attacking motion on that forum (why I don't know).  My Si-fu explains the Bong Sau as a good "oh crap" move if you are attacked and did not have enough time to react to that attack.  

As to the usefulness of Bong Sau we use it a lot since it is a great tool to flow from a defensive posture to an offensive posture in a blink of an eye.  I agree that there are other useful weapons (Tan Da, Pak Da etc.), but in watching how much Chum Kiu works the Bong Sau I would say it is a worthy tool.

Good luck in everyone's training!


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 13, 2008)

Oh dear....

The phrase 'the bong sao is never first' simply means that you shouldn't form straight into a bong sao. If you are sparring, your hands are in a guard position and as the technique rolls in, you form the shape into a bong sao. In a real fight my hands would be in the 'compromise position' (out in front, very relaxed, as though I'm negotiating with my attacker) before folding to bong sao

The point is that the bong struggles if you try to use it as your first movement. It is better to bridge (with muen sao) before folding into tan sao or bong sao to receive the force of your attackers punch

Bong sao, should cover the head - if your opponent comes at you with a structure that reaches over your bong sao, you should be striking as opposed to trying to block it, as there will be a massive gap


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