# Ramsay Dewey and karate "blocks"



## 333kenshin (Apr 1, 2021)

So I quite enjoy the YouTube videos of Shanghai-based MMA coach Ramsay Dewey.

Recently he posted a series of videos about karate blocking, starting with how they aren't actually blocks, followed by one about offensive applications of the same movements. The latter is reminiscent of a similar series on KarateCulture about applications of these "blocks". Now while I feel like these applications are perfectly valid, they don't fully explain why these movements were called "blocks" in the first place if they weren't used to block attacks.

As an analogy, consider tennis shoes. Sure you can wear them for running or play basketball _as well as _for tennis, but if you were to tell me they were never used for tennis, I'd feel further explanation were in order. It just doesn't satisfy Occam's Razor, and I suspect the only reason we don't pick up on the cognitive dissonance is that MMA has primed us to dismiss TMA in general as irrational.

My theory is that karate blocks are indeed blocks, just not blocks against punches. Think about it: karate was developed long before the arrival of western guns, on an island full of poor fishermen. According to the Karate Nerd, the kobudo oar was commonly trained in tandem with empty-handed karate. So maybe karate blocks are optimized for blocking an opponent wielding a kobudo, or similar bludgeon weapon.

Against such an attack, it makes sense to use traditional blocks. A bludgeon is easier to anticipate but harder to evade than punches, and extending your arm forward will arrest the movement earlier in its arc, before it's acquired dangerous momentum. It also explains the use of knife-hand blocks, to grasp the weapon and try to wrest control. It's not that karate is useless in combat, it's that it's optimized for a scenario that occurs much less frequently.

If this theory is correct, then the use of blocks for old-school karate is actually quite akin to how traditional European sword fighting, where rapiers were slow and heavy enough (think Princess Bride in slow motion) that the left arm wrapped in one's cloak could be used to intercept attacks.

What do folks think - does this theory hold water?


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## wab25 (Apr 1, 2021)

Its a translation error. The word is "uke." In Karate, uke refers to blocking because of a mistranslation or misunderstanding. In Judo or Jujitsu the same term is used for the person being thrown. Tori throws uke. When you throw someone o'goshi (major hip throw) the person you are throwing is uke, but he certainly is not "blocking" the throw. 

In Funakoshi's books when he discusses uke te, that translates into receiving hand, not block. Funakoshi explains that uke te are techniques of blending, pushing, pulling, trapping, parrying and lastly, striking... he gives an anatomical chart to show where to use these to strike. As an alternate application to the strike, he says that you could also knock aside an attacking hand or foot. This is what most of western Karate grabbed on to, and will not let go of. What Funakoshi (the founder of Shotokan) thought were the most important applications of "receiving hand" have now become "way out there, fringe type" applications, while the alternate, to the last use Funakoshi taught, has become the main application accepted today in Shotokan and other Karate arts. (it makes for an interesting conversation to ask a Shotokan Sensei about the "blocks" being used as locks, throws and traps... they tell you that the main application is as a block, and only people who are stretching the kata too much would say such nonsense... then open Funakoshi's book and read to them Funakoshi's thoughts on the applications of these moves...)

In Judo / Jujitsu, to be uke is to be the one who receives. Uke has a part to do as well, he is not just a rag doll to be thrown. At first, it is to take the falls safely. Then those safe falls sometimes become counter throws.

Any time you hear the word "block" in Karate, remember that it came from "uke te." A better translation would be "receiving hand" not block. There are a lot of ways to receive, one of which may be blocking, and a lot of things to receive, not just punches and kicks.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 1, 2021)

wab25 nicely explained the Japanese term "uke," but the disconnect regarding blocks goes beyond this.  She rightly mentions Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan, and his block applications - Remember, he was an Okinawan karate expert before he went to Japan.



333kenshin said:


> karate was developed long before the arrival of western guns, on an island full of poor fishermen. -



This is not correct.  What we would recognize as ""karate" developed in Okinawa during the 1700's and 1800's, well after (at least a century) the introduction of guns.



333kenshin said:


> and extending your arm forward will arrest the movement earlier in



This is one thing you got right.   Moving into the strike and intercepting it sooner and closer to the origin is preferable for several reasons.



333kenshin said:


> It also explains the use of knife-hand blocks, to grasp the weapon and try to wrest control.



This and the previous quote are contradictory to each other.  We agree that intercepting the strike up on the arm is best.  But then to say blocks are designed to intercept the weapon is the opposite since the weapon is further down the arm than even the hand!  Yes, the weapon can be handled, but only after the arm is controlled.



333kenshin said:


> does this theory hold water?



NO.

Blocks can certainly be just "blocks" and be effective in that role, though I very much doubt (near certainty) that they were not designed for weapon defense in mind.  Blocks are very basic moves.  U.S. military in the 1950's and 60's, who were usually stationed in Okinawa for less than two years and brought karate back to the USA, were taught mostly the basics.  So all they knew were blocks are just simple blocks, not the full reality of them (which I'll get to soon.)  Blocks were also just simple blocks in Japan after 1930 when the rules of sport karate precluded them being too much more.  So, here are a couple of reasons blocks were thought to be something other than their full potential.  Here is another:

Blocks were more than just blocks in traditional Okinawan karate.  Before 1920, it was taught in secret.  Thus, the idea that the moves that seemingly were just blocks held by outsiders was encouraged, the true reality of the moves kept hidden.  There are many applications where the blocks are actually strikes, whether directly impacting the target, or indirectly after deflecting a strike.  Sometimes t hey intercepted an attack midway thru the "block" and morphed into a grab and twist or takedown.  There is much more to this topic, and has been discussed in the past. This is enough detail for this thread's purpose.


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## punisher73 (Apr 3, 2021)

There used to be an article online by Charles Goodin (couldn't find it again with a quick search) called, "The Why of Bunkai".

Goodin talks about several points of application and one of them was how the word "uke" came to mean block.  In short, it was when karate started to be published in pictures in books.  You couldn't just say "move the arm this way", you needed a name for the action.  Thus, the easiest and most basic application for the "uke" was a block and that is what "anchored" the meaning to the word moving forward.

That being said, I completely disagree with the theory that those movements were used to block any kind of weapons as a primary application.  There is no evidence or oral teaching that I have ever come across that the arm would have been wrapped and used to block kobudo style weapons.  Could it have happened?  Maybe, but that would be a last ditch effort and not a primary method of teaching blocks.


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## letsplaygames (Apr 3, 2021)

Basically Three types...  

A) Believes the Kihon baseline only.. Gedan Bari is a low level block, Agau uke is a high block etc ... bla... bla ... bla  (To be honest... I've encounter very who have the skill level above the rank  of  2 kyu in karate. who this represents..  That said...  I've seen plenty of dan who are really 2nd Kyu at best skill wise.)


B)  Believes Karate blocks are garbage, throws out all uke waza, uses western boxing techniques... loves to show people why traditional karate blocking techniques suck.  Funny thing is... this guy is really  Type A.. his karate is really somewhere around a 2nd kyu.  He's clueless, he's resorted to strategies and tactics other than Karate. His Kime is void, his maai is void of anything remotely karate.  he's kick boxing.. use no hikite, little or no ashi barai ... defiantly no sweeps with hikite etc  Most of the time those guys are functional kick boxers with some or a lot of prowess... that said... Their fundamental understand of Karate is still 2 kyu at best

C)  Understands Uke waza...  I think for the most part, people who are committed to Karate, who train for life... are fully in the know...


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 3, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> C) Understands Uke waza... I think for the most part, people who are committed to Karate, who train for life... are fully in the know...



While these committed to karate may work hard and have great technical skills, I think most do NOT have a full grasp of hikite, tuite (qin na in the Chinese systems) and the idea of aggressive "attacking blocks," that target tendons, much less of pressure points.  I do not fault them for this as one doesn't know what one doesn't know.  It had been many years in mainstream karate that such concepts were unknown, being lost over the years of sport karate and teachers passing down their limited knowledge, although there are numerous exceptions to this.  Only if the practitioner has had the idea that more existed and took the effort to delve into these things themselves, or found a knowledgable sensei would they get the full picture.


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## drop bear (Apr 3, 2021)

So how did karate guys get out of the way of punches before they started putting their arms in the way?

And who was the genius who went. You know this grip break move we do? Well someone punched me the other day and I did that and his punch missed. So like Mabye we should do that from now on.


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## 333kenshin (Apr 4, 2021)

OK, so looks like there's no evidence for my weapon theory, it's really a cultural misunderstanding. Which I guess is not entirely surprising when something drifts from Okinawa to Japan and then to the US in such a short amount of time.

Thanks to everyone who provided useful info.

Btw, the origin of my defense-against-weapons theory is European sword play, where it was common to wrap one's cloak around the non-dominant arm to intercept an opponent's rapier (fun fact: that's the origin of the phrase "cloak and dagger")


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## Buka (Apr 5, 2021)

drop bear said:


> So how did karate guys get out of the way of punches before they started putting their arms in the way?
> 
> And who was the genius who went. You know this grip break move we do? Well someone punched me the other day and I did that and his punch missed. So like Mabye we should do that from now on.



I'm not sure I understand the question. What I always did was train my guys with every method of blocking and evading that I knew, methods that were handed down from Professional Fighters of note.

I'd let them decide which was best for them by fighting and drilling. That teaches you pretty quickly.


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## Acronym (Apr 5, 2021)

333kenshin said:


> So I quite enjoy the YouTube videos of Shanghai-based MMA coach Ramsay Dewey.
> 
> Recently he posted a series of videos about karate blocking, starting with how they aren't actually blocks, followed by one about offensive applications of the same movements. The latter is reminiscent of a similar series on KarateCulture about applications of these "blocks". Now while I feel like these applications are perfectly valid, they don't fully explain why these movements were called "blocks" in the first place if they weren't used to block attacks.
> 
> ...



I don't think those blocks make much sense against bladed weapons, but you do raise an interesting point about not being against punches. Since there is no guard, no head movement, really nothing that could be considered defense to boxing, the intent wAS probably never was to defend against boxing.. and this is one of the big weaknesses of Karate, that it is overly reliant on footwork.


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## wab25 (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> the intent wAS probably never was to defend against boxing.. and this is one of the big weaknesses of Karate, that it is *overly reliant on footwork*.


Boxing is just as reliant on footwork as karate is. All martial arts rely on their footwork, though their footwork may be different.


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## Acronym (Apr 6, 2021)

wab25 said:


> Boxing is just as reliant on footwork as karate is. All martial arts rely on their footwork, though their footwork may be different.



There is no close range pugilism in Karate.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> There is no close range pugilism in Karate.



There is in the Karate I've always done.


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## Acronym (Apr 6, 2021)

Buka said:


> There is in the Karate I've always done.



Okinawa? You aren't allowed to strike more than once in Japanese face punching Karate


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Okinawa? You aren't allowed to strike more than once in Japanese face punching Karate



I train American Karate. You’re allowed to punch all you want, where you want, at any distance you want, including grappling.

As for Okinawan Karate, all the Okinawan guys I’ve trained with, and there’s a ton and a half of them, do the same thing when we spar.

As do the Koyokushin guys. I realize one will always read that there is no face contact in Kyokushin Katate. Apparently all the Koyokushin guys I’ve know never read that. Every one of them loves to fight and loves to punch in the face. They all do it quite well, too.


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## Acronym (Apr 6, 2021)

Buka said:


> I train American Karate. You’re allowed to punch all you want, where you want, at any distance you want, including grappling.
> 
> As for Okinawan Karate, all the Okinawan guys I’ve trained with, and there’s a ton and a half of them, do the same thing when we spar.
> 
> As do the Koyokushin guys. I realize one will always read that there is no face contact in Kyokushin Katate. Apparently all the Koyokushin guys I’ve know never read that. Every one of them loves to fight and loves to punch in the face. They all do it quite well, too.



Really? We have a boxing trainer in this forum who likened training Kyokushin guys to drowning a cat in water...


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> Really? We have a boxing trainer in this forum who likened training Kyokushin guys to drowning a cat in water...



First time I ever saw a Martial Arts competition was in the Boston Arena. It was predominantly two schools, a Greek Goju school and a Koyokushin school from Japan.

It was held in a boxing ring of all things.  Four judges in the corners outside the ring with flags. Continuous fighting, no gloves. And a scorer sat ringside.

It was an absolute blood bath. They were all Martial dignified, but they were all crazy. It was nuts and great to watch. 

What impressed me the most was how cordial they were to each other after what looked like attempted murder to my young eyes.


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## wab25 (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> There is no close range pugilism in Karate.


This is incorrect. Even Shotokan is full of close range punching and other nastiness. Funakoshi, the founder of the system taught the down block as a throw... where you step your forward foot behind your opponents feet and the "block" knocks him backwards over your knee.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> There is no close range pugilism in Karate





Acronym said:


> Okinawa? You aren't allowed to strike more than once in Japanese face punching Karate



How can anyone be active on this site and yet be so uninformed? 

Both these statements are grossly incorrect.  Karate was designed specifically in Okinawa as a close range fighting system.  That's why it teaches elbows, knees, takedowns, grabs and stomping leg attacks.  You must be viewing karate thru the very narrow lens of sport competition and know nothing of the actual art.

In every tournament or sparring session I've ever been in the head is the main target.  In point sparring, you may get disqualified if you strike too hard to the opponent's face more than once, as those matches allowed "kiss contact" only.  I've been "kissed" hard a few times and usually returned it in kind - have never been in a match that resulted in disqualification.  Kyokushin is another animal entirely, and IMHO (based what I've seen,) a degrading of the karate _art_ as its reliance seems to be on pure power and aggression over technique and finesse. 

BTW, I've never heard of "Japanese face punching karate."  Doesn't sound like a style I'd enjoy.


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## Graywalker (Apr 6, 2021)

Acronym said:


> There is no close range pugilism in Karate.


Not even remotely true.


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## drop bear (Apr 7, 2021)

Buka said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. What I always did was train my guys with every method of blocking and evading that I knew, methods that were handed down from Professional Fighters of note.
> 
> I'd let them decide which was best for them by fighting and drilling. That teaches you pretty quickly.



Yeah but for people who train karate blocks and then say they are really grab defences or something. It means at some point karate guts were not blocking anything.


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## Buka (Apr 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but for people who train karate blocks and then say they are really grab defences or something. It means at some point karate guts were not blocking anything.



I always loved folks who didn't block anything. So much fun to compete against!


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## Martial D (Apr 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but for people who train karate blocks and then say they are really grab defences or something. It means at some point karate guts were not blocking anything.


To be fair, 'blocking' in the sense that you swing your arm to knock away a punch with your forearm really only leads to a bruised face most of the time.


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## letsplaygames (Apr 14, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> While these committed to karate may work hard and have great technical skills, I think most do NOT have a full grasp of hikite, tuite (qin na in the Chinese systems) and the idea of aggressive "attacking blocks," that target tendons, much less of pressure points.  I do not fault them for this as one doesn't know what one doesn't know.  It had been many years in mainstream karate that such concepts were unknown, being lost over the years of sport karate and teachers passing down their limited knowledge, although there are numerous exceptions to this.  Only if the practitioner has had the idea that more existed and took the effort to delve into these things themselves, or found a knowledgable sensei would they get the full picture.



There is a lot to what you wrote.. 

Recently, Ive been training at a Dojo that is very kata orientated. (I’m a Sandan in my old style) The sensei is a Rokudan  and is very knowledgable on the style... but lacks skill and knowledge in practical bunkai... kumite skills/prowess seems to be there..(I think... not sure... until I sparr against that person I will not know for certain)  

The sensei admits on their short comings on practical karate/bunkai/self defense... and wants to train more of it... seems to be using me as a catalyst for change!  

Last night I got “Why hasn’t anyone taught us this!”  From Dans no less...after showing them some joint locks from a kata they were doing. 

At one point... they were questioning a mae kaketo geri done with kekomi (a front thrust kick done with the heel) I was demonstrating it usage by attacking the sternum with hikite and without.. also showed attacking the thigh breaking my opponents stance with the kick. 

They thought I was doing a front snap kick wrong.... huh?  what? After explaining that all karate has a front thrust kick!  I got “We only have a front snap kick”. Which I replied “ ok... do the keketo geri with keage”  (do the heel kick with snapping technique.) I got the reply. “No you only do a mae geri keage with the ball of the foot”.). .  

these are dans... yikes! 
Normally... I would have bolted long ago, but  the sensei understands the wrongs done by the previous sensei, and they all are very respectful, honest and admit they don’t know bunkai or self defense. Many after I show them bunkai (throws, joint locks, etc ) get mad at the fact they have been practicing for decades and no one has shown them practical bunkai.... I’m talking basic stuff... when I showed them how to use Gedan Bari to break both hands grabbed by an opponent... many went... “what was that!!!!?”

A part of me says.. they own their ignorance, don’t blame the sensei... or the sensei before.  Imo ..., They got what they got,  because they equated learning kata as prowess. 

Imo if someone is serious about their karate, their eyes should be wide open, and their cup empty,  (mind is!)  

Karate prowess should be as functional as possible. 

Yes many don’t know what they don’t know though...


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## letsplaygames (Apr 15, 2021)

Z


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 16, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> Imo if someone is serious about their karate, their eyes should be wide open, and their cup empty



When I put on my cup, it is anything but empty!


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## Bill Mattocks (May 27, 2021)

Blocks can be strikes, strikes can be blocks.  They can also be parries, traps, deflections, evasions, and just about anything else you can think of.  Applications vary wildly, and many can be effective if practiced correctly and used in the proper context at the appropriate time.

However, if a goon lugs a haymaker at me with his right hand, I will most likely step in, throw up a strong block with my left, and jet off his punkin head with my right.  It's a simple kihon-based defense, but for untrained punks, it is most likely going to be quite effective.

We have spent many a happy hour in the dojo exploring, for example, various ways to escape hand and lapel grabs.  One of the most effective responses is still the simplest; punch the snot out the person who grabs you with whatever limb is free.  Simple is good, I like simple.  That doesn't make it the most appropriate response in all circumstances, and that is why one should try to absorb many techniques that can be done in place of a simple block, punch, kick response to attack.

One of my favorite of the 'Codes of Karate' is "A person's unbalance is the same as a weight."  If I can turn a block, for example, into a parry-and-grab, it only takes about an inch of movement to get them off balance.  As they fight to regain their balance, in that brief moment, I strike.  So much fun.


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## Graywalker (May 27, 2021)

How did I miss this thread. I will comment later on what the various ideologies are concerning blocks in our system. 

Working now...


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 17, 2021)

333kenshin said:


> So I quite enjoy the YouTube videos of Shanghai-based MMA coach Ramsay Dewey.
> 
> Recently he posted a series of videos about karate blocking, starting with how they aren't actually blocks, followed by one about offensive applications of the same movements. The latter is reminiscent of a similar series on KarateCulture about applications of these "blocks". Now while I feel like these applications are perfectly valid, they don't fully explain why these movements were called "blocks" in the first place if they weren't used to block attacks.
> 
> ...


The word block does not exist in Okinawan Karate terminology. The term used is UKE, which means "receive". In order for you to defend from an attack, you take hold of, and control the offending appendage. This is why a "block" has 2 movements. The supporting hand moves first, to intercept the attack. This is called "parry". The prominent hand completes the movement to destroy the attack. 

Regarding the origin of Karate, I tend to believe it has roots in the preservation of the Royal Families of Okinawa. The goal was to defend the kingdom, so most of karate was developed by the Royal Bodyguards. Many were part of the Aristocracy, which is NOT like today's Western aristocracy. They were residents of the Castles. Look at the Shito Ryu patch. It has a red emblem. That is the Crest of the 4 Families who defended the Chibana Castle. Mabuni is one of those families. Oshiro and Hokama are also 2 of the families and the 4th one escapes me at the moment. 

Your theory would hold water if the "blocking" system was as you believe. But it is not. The word "block" does not exist in karate, nor even in Chinese arts. It is good though, that you are cross referencing information.


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