# Pronunciation



## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

Just started Chinese martial arts a couple months ago and really enjoying it. Something I've had trouble in in pronouncing Chinese words. I'm confident in my pronunciation of sifu, but not so much of *sihing*, *sigung* and *sijo*. I've tried looking the pronunciation but have had failed attempts. Any insight of the pronunciation of these words will be a great help.


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Zakky said:


> Just started Chinese martial arts a couple months ago and really enjoying it. Something I've had trouble in in pronouncing Chinese words. I'm confident in my pronunciation of sifu, but not so much of *sihing*, *sigung* and *sijo*. I've tried looking the pronunciation but have had failed attempts. Any insight of the pronunciation of these words will be a great help.



Pretty much how you see it is how it is. Those three are pretty straight forward & don't take any special sounds... 

sihing = see heeng
sigung = see gung
sijo = see joe

That should get you by nicely. Obviously if you wanted to study Cantonese, found out your sifu's dialect & learn it properly, but if not, you should be good with that.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Pretty much how you see it is how it is. Those three are pretty straight forward & don't take any special sounds...
> 
> sihing = see heeng
> sigung = see gung
> ...


 
Unless you are talking Mandarin, particularly Beijing Mandarin

Sifu (Shifu) = Shr foo
sihing = shr heeng
sigung = shr gung
sijo = shr joe

But there are also tonal differences to take into consideration if you are looking for perfect pronunciation, but the majority of Chinese Sifu types are pretty forgiving to us when it comes to our pronunciations. 

And dialect makes a big difference in pronunciation

My sanda sifus pronounces Sanda more like Shanda he is from way north China.
My family in Beijing says Sanda. But both pronounce Xingyiquan like Shing-yee-chuan
But my Taiji Sifu from the south pronounces Xingyiquan like yin-yee-chaun. And yet I think they all pretty much call Bagua&#8230; Bogwah.

It really, as clfsean said, depends on your sifu's dialect


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## CoryKS (Jun 5, 2009)

While we're on the subject, how do you pronounce your name, Xue Sheng?  I've always wanted to know.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> While we're on the subject, how do you pronounce your name, Xue Sheng? I've always wanted to know.


 
Shway Shung (it means student)

But there is a tone or 2 in there and I think it is 2 and 4 (/ and \) or possibly 3 and 4 ( U and \) but I need to look that up

Mandarin tones - / U \

Edit:

Sorry it is 2 and 1 
Xué sh&#275;ng (&#23398;&#29983;)


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 5, 2009)

Also you can learn Pinyin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinyin

Another thing to learn is Tones
http://mandarin.about.com/od/pronunciation/a/tones.htm

Another thing is Hanzi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_character

Hanzi is great for example here are 2 Rens:

&#20154;=man &#22922;=pregnant

But my Chinese is terrible compared to my Japanese.


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## phfman (Jun 5, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Shway Shung (it means student)
> 
> But there is a tone or 2 in there and I think it is 2 and 4 (/ and \) or possibly 3 and 4 ( U and \) but I need to look that up
> 
> ...


 
Does Toedai also mean student in Chinese? If so, do you know what dialect?


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

phfman said:


> Does Toedai also mean student in Chinese? If so, do you know what dialect?



Yeah todai is student too... I've always heard it from the south so maybe Cantonese or something from the area. it may be from up North & just adapted down south... who knows....


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

phfman said:


> Does Toedai also mean student in Chinese? If so, do you know what dialect?


 
That I will have to ask my wife

student
​&#23398;&#21592; [xué yuán] student
&#23398;&#29983; [xué sheng] student
​&#21021;&#23398;&#32773; [ch&#363; xué zh&#283;] beginning student
&#22823;&#23398;&#29983; [dà xué sheng] university student
&#23454;&#20064;&#29983; [shí xí sheng] intern (student)
&#23567;&#23398;&#29983; [xi&#462;o xué sh&#275;ng] (n) student in primary school; schoolchild
&#25945;&#23398; [jiào xué] education; teacher and student
&#30041;&#23398;&#29983; [liú xué sh&#275;ng] (foreign) exchange student; student studying abroad
&#30740;&#31350;&#29983; [yán ji&#363; sh&#275;ng] graduate student
&#39640;&#20013;&#29983; [g&#257;o zh&#333;ng sh&#275;ng] senior high school student


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

Sounds like it looks, seems quite simple now that I look at it  cheers for the help, appreciate it. Another thing I forgot to mention was how to pronounce 'Sun Tzu'?. Is it pronoucned like it sounds, like the others or more complex?


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Zakky said:


> Sounds like it looks, seems quite simple now that I look at it  cheers for the help, appreciate it. Another thing I forgot to mention was how to pronounce 'Sun Tzu'?. Is it pronoucned like it sounds, like the others or more complex?



I've heard both "Sun Ssu", "Sun Zu" & other close variations.... regions again or the Chinese just being polite while we butcher their languages.


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

> I've heard both "Sun Ssu", "Sun Zu" & other close variations.... regions again or the Chinese just being polite while we butcher their languages.


Ah silent 't', the way I was trying to say it was horrible, 'Soon Twuzz' . Thanks for the clear up.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

In Beijing Sun Tzu is closer to Swin Za or su-in za (hard to actualy write that one phonetically, it is easier to say

The art of war is swin za bing fa


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

> In Beijing Sun Tzu is closer to Swin Za or su-in za (hard to actualy write that one phonetically, it is easier to say
> 
> The art of war is swin za bing fa


Is Mandarin spoken more in Beijing?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

Zakky said:


> Is Mandarin spoken more in Beijing?


 
Mandarin is spoken more in the North it is just that most Beijingren feel their mandarin is perfect Mandarin because...well... it&#8217;s Beijing.

I am not all that good a showing the differences but my guess (this may be a poor example) is with something like Sifu most mandarin speakers would say seefoo where Beijing Mandarin says Shrfoo. There are more 'r' sounds in Beijing Mandarin. there us another word that is pronounced Hway by just about all other Mandarin speakers that in Beijing is pronounced Hwar. Also there is indigenous Beijing slang that I will not get into here :EG:

I have been talking (what little I know) to other people who speak mandarin (native Chinese) and they look at me perplexed for a minute and then say&#8230; do you know you are speaking with a Beijing Accent. It confuses them a bit apparently to have a westerner speaking Beijing mandarin, yet when my wife says anything they don&#8217;t mention it at all. 

Now go further South it becomes Cantonese and all bets are off. Chinese is more of a language family than a language; Mandarin, Wu, Min, Cantonese, Xiang, Hakka, Gan to name a few and each dialect has sub dialects. And to make it more confusing the dialects cannot understand one another generally. For example a Cantonese Speaker can&#8217;t understand a Mandarin speaker but they all share the same written language.


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

> Now go further South it becomes Cantonese and all bets are off. Chinese is more of a language family than a language; Mandarin, Wu, Min, Cantonese, Xiang, Hakka, Gan to name a few and each dialect has sub dialects. And to make it more confusing the dialects cannot understand one another generally. For example a Cantonese Speaker cant understand a Mandarin speaker but they all share the same written language.


Yeah that is quite confusing, but I think I understand. I guess it would be a good thing to learn the correct pronunciation early on in my training rather than later. Thank you for the language lesson. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

Zakky said:


> Yeah that is quite confusing, but I think I understand. I guess it would be a good thing to learn the correct pronunciation early on in my training rather than later. Thank you for the language lesson. :asian:


 
Just so you know, most Chinese today under 60 speak Mandarin regardless of their native dialect.


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just so you know, most Chinese today under 60 speak Mandarin regardless of their native dialect.



yeah... damn shame too... especially in the south.... from Tibet to the sea...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2009)

clfsean said:


> yeah... damn shame too... especially in the south.... from Tibet to the sea...


 
You know, out of curiosity, I almost asked why, but I do believe I know. Especially when you are talking the youngest multi-dialect speakers.


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh yeah Xue Sheng I was wondering if you could tell me the difference between 'Gong Fu' and 'Kung Fu'? Is one Mandarin and the other Cantonese or has 'Gong Fu' been converted to 'Kung Fu' as it was past from China to the Western World?


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Zakky said:


> Oh yeah Xue Sheng I was wondering if you could tell me the difference between 'Gong Fu' and 'Kung Fu'? Is one Mandarin and the other Cantonese or has 'Gong Fu' been converted to 'Kung Fu' as it was past from China to the Western World?



You got it... 

Gong = Mandarin
Gung/Kung = Canto


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## Zakky (Jun 5, 2009)

Ah sweet, just wanted to make sure. Thank you.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

phfman said:


> Does Toedai also mean student in Chinese? If so, do you know what dialect?


 


clfsean said:


> Yeah todai is student too... I've always heard it from the south so maybe Cantonese or something from the area. it may be from up North & just adapted down south... who knows....


 
You Southern stylist guys are always copying us Northern stylists 

OK, I am not as flexible as I thought in this reading phonetic spellings 

Mandarin it is tudi (toodee) 

If you have a laoshi (teacher) you are a xue sheng (student)

If you have a sifu (teacher of a skill) you are a tudi (student)

But I did not use tudi when I got to MT because I was having an issue with my sifu and I did not think he considered me a student. Actually it was fairly recent that I found out he does in fact think of me as his student. So to him I am a tudi.


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## clfsean (Jun 6, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> You Southern stylist guys are always copying us Northern stylists



Pfah... you wish...


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Pfah... you wish...


 
:lol:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 6, 2009)

I think Tudi translates as Disciple 
&#24466;&#24351; which makes sense in a martial art.

Xue Sheng translates as student like school or something. 

Oh well Tudi fruity oh Rudy!
This is the orginal I have no idea what he is talking about *snicker*


> A wop bop a loo mop, a good goddam!
> Tutti Frutti, good booty If it dont fit, dont force it You can grease it, make it easy."


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## Tensei85 (Jun 6, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I think Tudi translates as Disciple
> &#24466;&#24351; which makes sense in a martial art.
> 
> Xue Sheng translates as student like school or something.
> ...



Actually in some styles of Lian Gong it would:

However in most common formats it would be Di Zi or in Canto Dai Ji. (Disciple)

To Di (tu di) Canto To Dai (Student) different than Xue Sheng


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 6, 2009)

Oh you mean this Hanzi: &#24351;&#23376;

I think Di Zi means more like disciple/follower

 were Tudi means more like apprentice/disciple

The Di means brother Tu means follower/disciple

I think Tu is used more in a religious manner.

So it makes sense using Di Zi but what do I know my Chinese is terrible.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 6, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Oh you mean this Hanzi: &#24351;&#23376;
> 
> I think Di Zi means more like disciple/follower
> 
> ...



Yea, that's exactly it:

In Wu Gong terminology its acceptable to use either or, but the common usage of Di Zi over To Di. But I've seen either way.

Another thing depending on lineage sometimes the word Di Zi would not be used til one has Bai Si under their Shifu.

So To Di was a disciple/student but of a lesser status as one who has not sought Bai Si under a Shifu (so to say) But as with anything its open to interpretation.

So its the argument of Indoor/Outdoor Disciples or however its coined.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 6, 2009)

Also Di Zi not to be confused with the flute (lol)


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> So its the argument of Indoor/Outdoor Disciples or however its coined.


 
As my sifu said, of course they didn't teach everybody everything.... who has the time


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## ggg214 (Jun 7, 2009)

di zi is the same as Tu Di in the meaning. 
but Di zi is seldomly used in a conversation. and nowaday, we more like to use Tu di.


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## geezer (Jun 8, 2009)

You know this I always thought this Chinese custom of using family terms was kinda cool... reinforcing the sense of brotherhood between students and all, but as a person who does not speak Chinese (any dialect) and is tone-deaf to boot, it always makes me feel uneasy to know that I'm bound to butcher the language. Incidentally, I practice Wing Tsun, so we use Cantonese terms.

Another problem. After you've been in a system a while, you start needing to expand your vocabulary. And it's a b*tch. Here's what we use, if I remember correctly (we're pretty informal a lot of the time): 

_Si-jo:_ ancestor/ teacher of Si-gung
_Si-gung:_ teacher of Sifu
_Sifu:_ "teacher/father" or, with different characters, any teacher
_Si-mo:_ teacher's wife (the possibility of a female teacher was apparently never considered! _And in Wing Chun/Tsun!!!_) 
_Si-pak:_ elder uncle, Sifu's Si-hing
_Si-sok:_ younger uncle, Sifu's Si-dai.
_Si-hing:_ elder brother (started before you)
_Si-je:_ elder sister
_Si-dai:_ younger brother
_To-dai or to-suen:_ student
_moon-pai(?)_ fellow practitioner of the same system (pai) or _a chocolaty marshmallow treat_.
_Dai_: "big" or "great" an honorific, as in "Dai Si-hing" meaning the top Si-hing.
_Sifu_ (using the second meaning from above): Any teacher, so if your Sifu (teacher-father) invites his friends who are also martial arts teachers to visit, they may be addressed this way. For example, you could have Sifu Ho, Sify Leung, Sifu Tam, Sifu Ng and Sifu Billy-Bob all coming to dinner! 

Well that's about it. If any of you speak Cantonese and can help with corrections, thanks in advance. Also, maybe you know what to say in the _following situations:_

My current instructor who is my _Si-dei._ Yes that's "younger brother". But he's better than I am, so he's my instructor. So far we deal with it by using first names except in front of students. Then we refer to each other using the term _sifu_ together with our first names... in the second sense of the word (see above).

It gets worse.

How do I refer to my German Dai Si Hing's student ( my kung-fu nephew)? And does the fact that he is far better than I will ever be, ...a world class fighter who has founded his own organization, and who has also challenged and _beat up_ some so called "Grandmasters" figure in? I don't know what the Chinese term for _"SOB, but damn good_" is. So to his face I'll forget whatever the term for "nephew" is and stick with the English word, _"Sir"_.

BTW_ what is the term for nephew???_ I do meet a lot of them in training.




Sometimes I think it would be easier to just do what my Eskrima teacher does. Use first names for everybody, but _heaven help you_ if you are disrespectful to a senior.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 8, 2009)

geezer said:


> BTW_ what is the term for nephew???_ I do meet a lot of them in training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




-Si Juk-


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## clfsean (Jun 8, 2009)

Don't forget Si Mui for little training sister & hingdai for all training bros/sis regardless of standing in the family tree. It (hingdai) can be used for all practitioners of your style as well, barring teachers.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 8, 2009)

And To Jia another derivative for nephew (CMA)


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## geezer (Jun 9, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> And To Jia another derivative for nephew (CMA)



Got it. nephew: Si-juk. Thanks Tensei.

And CLF Sean, thanks for reminding me. I forgot to list Si-mui.

Wait, I also forgot to ask about  kung-fu "niece". My si-dei runs two schools and I know he has female students, so I need to get that straight too.


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