# Freestyle vs. Taekwon-do



## Azulx

My Senior Student (Green Belt/Blue Gear) in the Finals against a Freestyle Martial Art Practitioner. Let me know what you think, any feedback and comments are welcome! 







She also got 1st place in Forms






Thanks for Watching!


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## Headhunter

Well hey nothing bad to say about your fighter but the other girl....my god her coach needs to train her exclusively in hands her kicks were terrible. Also needs to work on her defence literally everything your girl threw she landed even some kicks that weren't great herself (mainly that last spinning kick)

I didn't watch the forms because I don't know taekwondo forms so there's no point


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## Jaeimseu

I sure do hate tournaments where non-competitors/referees are allowed on the competition floor. I’m also not crazy about referees in “street clothes.” It makes things look half-assed and disorganized, in my opinion. 

Your competitor looks pretty good, though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Martial D

Azulx said:


> My Senior Student (Green Belt/Blue Gear) in the Finals against a Freestyle Martial Art Practitioner. Let me know what you think, any feedback and comments are welcome!
> 
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> She also got 1st place in Forms
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> 
> Thanks for Watching!


It looks like miss 'freestyle' is completely untrained.

And it follows she got massacred by what looks to be a well trained point fighter.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Martial D said:


> It looks like miss 'freestyle' is completely untrained.
> 
> And it follows she got massacred by what looks to be a well trained point fighter.


Yup. Felt more like an experienced student giving a sparring 'lesson' to someone new.


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## JR 137

It’s hard to give any meaningful feedback on her sparring.  She did whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, and everything she threw scored.  It appeared as though her opponent started a week or two ago.  I don’t mean that to take anything away from your student; just saying the video of that match in and of itself doesn’t do much to assess her.

I don’t know the form she did, being a karate guy myself.  There were a lot of great things she did which I can comment on.  She rhythm/pace was very good; she didn’t go too fast nor too slow, and stayed consistent in it the entire time.  Her eyes and head were locked on her “target” so to speak instead of drifting.  Her posture was very good without any leaning, slouching, etc.  She seemed confident and in control, mentally and physically the entire time.  In a good way, she seemed robotic in her kata.

Taking my inexperience with TKD into account, I’d say improvement in her kata would mainly come from more experience, as there weren’t any gross mistakes.  Putting a little more power behind/snap in her strikes, stances a little deeper, a little quicker on turns, stuff like that.  Basically, sharpening things up.

Kyu/gup number-wise, what’s her rank?  How long has she been training?  Does she have any prior experience?  Looking at a generic TKD belts webpage, I saw green belt is 6th gup.  Going by my school’s timetable, about 1 year to 1 1/2 years.  Unless she’s doing a lower rank form that she’s been doing almost the entire time, she’s quite good for her experience level.  She got a lot of things right that students at that rank struggle with a bit.  What stood out to me was there weren’t any outright faults like noted above.


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## pdg

JR 137 said:


> Looking at a generic TKD belts webpage, I saw green belt is 6th gup.



Green is 6th in most ITF based subsystems.

Yul Gok tul is generally a 5th kup pattern (highest practiced to grade to 4th).

For our competions, apparently we'd only use tul we'd graded with, so a 5th kup wouldn't generally perform Yul Gok.

I did see a bunch of stripes/tags on her belt though - we use a green belt with a central blue stripe for 5th, but I assume the one shown may use different intermediate markings.



Actual comments to follow


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## Azulx

The sparring video is not the best video to receive any type of relevant feed back . Here is a video of her sparring the USKA's number 1 nationally ranked Kyu Rank: 








Headhunter said:


> Well hey nothing bad to say about your fighter but the other girl....my god her coach needs to train her exclusively in hands her kicks were terrible. Also needs to work on her defence literally everything your girl threw she landed even some kicks that weren't great herself (mainly that last spinning kick)



Would love your feedback on this video. ^



Jaeimseu said:


> sure do hate tournaments where non-competitors/referees are allowed on the competition floor. I’m also not crazy about referees in “street clothes.” It makes things look half-assed and disorganized, in my opinion.
> 
> Your competitor looks pretty good, though.



I was not impressed with the quality of the tournament at all. We usually do the USKA circuits, they are 100 times more impressive. 



Martial D said:


> It looks like miss 'freestyle' is completely untrained.
> 
> And it follows she got massacred by what looks to be a well trained point fighter.



would love your feedback on this video. ^



kempodisciple said:


> Yup. Felt more like an experienced student giving a sparring 'lesson' to someone new.



Over the years I have really appreciated your feedback, would love for you to comment on this video ^



JR 137 said:


> It’s hard to give any meaningful feedback on her sparring. She did whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted, and everything she threw scored. It appeared as though her opponent started a week or two ago. I don’t mean that to take anything away from your student; just saying the video of that match in and of itself doesn’t do much to assess her.
> 
> I don’t know the form she did, being a karate guy myself. There were a lot of great things she did which I can comment on. She rhythm/pace was very good; she didn’t go too fast nor too slow, and stayed consistent in it the entire time. Her eyes and head were locked on her “target” so to speak instead of drifting. Her posture was very good without any leaning, slouching, etc. She seemed confident and in control, mentally and physically the entire time. In a good way, she seemed robotic in her kata.
> 
> Taking my inexperience with TKD into account, I’d say improvement in her kata would mainly come from more experience, as there weren’t any gross mistakes. Putting a little more power behind/snap in her strikes, stances a little deeper, a little quicker on turns, stuff like that. Basically, sharpening things up.
> 
> Kyu/gup number-wise, what’s her rank? How long has she been training? Does she have any prior experience? Looking at a generic TKD belts webpage, I saw green belt is 6th gup. Going by my school’s timetable, about 1 year to 1 1/2 years. Unless she’s doing a lower rank form that she’s been doing almost the entire time, she’s quite good for her experience level. She got a lot of things right that students at that rank struggle with a bit. What stood out to me was there weren’t any outright faults like noted above.



Hopefully this new video gives you an opportunity to give more relevant feedback. Her rank in the video was 6th gup/kyu, she is now 5th kyu. The form was actually the 5th kyu form so it was one advanced. For previous experience she did a Shotokan offshoot from the age 5-10, then stopped. She joined us about a year and half ago at the age of 21. So for TKD training just a year and a half. She has also been dancing for 17 years, along with just being a great athlete in general, I'm sure all that gives her an edge in training.


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## Azulx

pdg said:


> Green is 6th in most ITF based subsystems.
> 
> Yul Gok tul is generally a 5th kup pattern (highest practiced to grade to 4th).
> 
> For our competions, apparently we'd only use tul we'd graded with, so a 5th kup wouldn't generally perform Yul Gok.
> 
> I did see a bunch of stripes/tags on her belt though - we use a green belt with a central blue stripe for 5th, but I assume the one shown may use different intermediate markings.
> 
> 
> 
> Actual comments to follow



we follow the same ITF rank color system. For competitions we always use the tul that is above the competitors gup rank, unless they are not ready for that. The white bars on her belt denote time in rank. Each stripe is one month, for 6th gup.


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## JR 137

pdg said:


> Green is 6th in most ITF based subsystems.
> 
> Yul Gok tul is generally a 5th kup pattern (highest practiced to grade to 4th).
> 
> For our competions, apparently we'd only use tul we'd graded with, so a 5th kup wouldn't generally perform Yul Gok.
> 
> I did see a bunch of stripes/tags on her belt though - we use a green belt with a central blue stripe for 5th, but I assume the one shown may use different intermediate markings.
> 
> 
> 
> Actual comments to follow


So in your competition, everyone’s generally doing a form that’s 1 level down from their current rank?  I like that.  Our organization has a tournament every year.  One of the kata rules is it must be with in your current rank.  Students are allowed to do a kata one rank down if they’ve recently been promoted.  The judges won’t ask you why you’re doing a lower kata, they’ll assume you and your teacher are following the rules.  Last tournament I was at, the first guy in my division to do kata did a lower rank kata.  A couple guys in our division looked dumbfounded and asked each other why he’s doing that one.  I smiled and said “I’m pretty sure he just promoted; his belt is still creased.”  I was right; he promoted on Wednesday, the tournament was on Saturday.

If I compete in October at our annual tournament, I’ll be in that odd time period if my training goes according to schedule.  I just promoted to 2nd kyu.  The tournament is right around the minimum time in grade to promote period.  Requiring me to do a kata I learned a few weeks beforehand would be pretty stupid.


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## Headhunter

Azulx said:


> The sparring video is not the best video to receive any type of relevant feed back . Here is a video of her sparring the USKA's number 1 nationally ranked Kyu Rank:
> 
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> 
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> 
> Would love your feedback on this video. ^
> 
> 
> 
> I was not impressed with the quality of the tournament at all. We usually do the USKA circuits, they are 100 times more impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> would love your feedback on this video. ^
> 
> 
> 
> Over the years I have really appreciated your feedback, would love for you to comment on this video ^
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully this new video gives you an opportunity to give more relevant feedback. Her rank in the video was 6th gup/kyu, she is now 5th kyu. The form was actually the 5th kyu form so it was one advanced. For previous experience she did a Shotokan offshoot from the age 5-10, then stopped. She joined us about a year and half ago at the age of 21. So for TKD training just a year and a half. She has also been dancing for 17 years, along with just being a great athlete in general, I'm sure all that gives her an edge in training.


Seriously that's the number one ranked?....my god I'm glad I keep away from point fighting that was sloppy as hell


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## Azulx

Headhunter said:


> Seriously that's the number one ranked?....my god I'm glad I keep away from point fighting that was sloppy as hell



Just for my own knowledge. What style do you practice?


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## Flying Crane

On her kata, it looks like she is doing a fair job of digging her feet into the ground, not letting them slide or lift off the ground or otherwise “chatter” and undermine her stances while doing her techniques.  Not bad for her level.


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## Headhunter

Azulx said:


> Just for my own knowledge. What style do you practice?


Kenpo, Muay Thai, Krav Maga and jiu jitsu also trained previously in boxing, western kickboxing and ishinryu karate


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## pdg

JR 137 said:


> So in your competition, everyone’s generally doing a form that’s 1 level down from their current rank?



Yeah, as far as I've seen and been told.

It's not 'done' to practice higher ranked patterns, so you don't start really learning it until you get promoted - if you're not up to spec to grade with it, why compete with it?


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## Azulx

Headhunter said:


> Kenpo, Muay Thai, Krav Maga and jiu jitsu also trained previously in boxing, western kickboxing and ishinryu karate



Ahh okay , so you're more on the MMA aide than point sparring side of competition.


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## Headhunter

Azulx said:


> Ahh okay , so you're more on the MMA aide than point sparring side of competition.


I'm not on either I don't care about competition anymore and i like point fighting but not when the fighters fight like white belts and have awful fundamentals. Again I'm talking about not your person but the other one, slow kicks, running in with hands down and punching with no stance and head leaning forward that's basically going against everything martial arts teaches about fighting


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Azulx said:


> Over the years I have really appreciated your feedback, would love for you to comment on this video ^



That's nice to hear 

When I get some time later today I'll watch it this and the forms video and let you know what I think.


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## CB Jones

Headhunter said:


> Seriously that's the number one ranked?....my god I'm glad I keep away from point fighting that was sloppy as hell



Just clarification, #1 in points...not ranked.  

Its a very small division.  Sadly its hard to get adult females to compete in sparring.


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> Just clarification, #1 in points...not ranked. Sadly its hard to get adult females to compete in sparring.



Ahh okay , I think Rachel is great. Point Sparring is not the best definer of skill. I have been pretty impressed with her the last couple times I've seen her.


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## CB Jones

Its just tough to find competition for females due to lack of participation in Kyu ranks.


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> Its just tough to find competition for females due to lack of participation in Kyu ranks.



Yeah , it's always usually pretty small divisions, 4 competitors max.


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## CB Jones

Azulx said:


> Yeah , it's always usually pretty small divisions, 4 competitors max.



Thats why we need to get ya'll to Worlds where there is better turnout.


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> Thats why we need to get ya'll to Worlds where there is better turnout.


We've been strongly considering joining the USKA, we've been very impressed with the quality of practitioners, and overall organization during tournaments. We'll figure out a way to get to Worlds.


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## CB Jones

Azulx said:


> We've been strongly considering joining the USKA, we've been very impressed with the quality of practitioners, and overall organization during tournaments. We'll figure out a way to get to Worlds.



I think you would get a lot of benefit from it.   Just from the standpoint of support from the other schools and black belts..  The Dupaquiers, Efflers, Scott, Buster, Rodney, etc...are good people.  From what I've seen the org. really tries to support each other.

And the Dupaquiers, Rodney, and Buster have experience in University clubs as well.


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## Headhunter

CB Jones said:


> Just clarification, #1 in points...not ranked.
> 
> Its a very small division.  Sadly its hard to get adult females to compete in sparring.


And that's another issue I have with these comps. Saying she's national number 1 or whatever sounds great but if you're ranked number 1 out of 5 people that's not as great as it sounds


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## Headhunter

Azulx said:


> Ahh okay , I think Rachel is great. Point Sparring is not the best definer of skill. I have been pretty impressed with her the last couple times I've seen her.


Well maybe she is but that fight certainly didn't show it in my opinion


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## CB Jones

@Azulx 

Also, you might want to try coming up to Ruston for state and regionals.  It might be a good road trip for your students.

Usually those two tournaments have a lot of college students in the beginner and intermediate divisions that your students could compete against.

The students are given the choice to compete or write a term paper for their final.


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## Buka

Azulx said:


> My Senior Student (Green Belt/Blue Gear) in the Finals against a Freestyle Martial Art Practitioner. Let me know what you think, any feedback and comments are welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She also got 1st place in Forms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for Watching!



She had herself a good day.  Nice presentation of her Kata, nice job in Kumite. Great job all around. Keep pushing her, bro.


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## Flying Crane

Headhunter said:


> And that's another issue I have with these comps. Saying she's national number 1 or whatever sounds great but if you're ranked number 1 out of 5 people that's not as great as it sounds


I once competed in a “world championship” tournament in China, forms competition.  There were 19 in my division if I remember correctly.  I placed fifth, and got... a silver medal.

Life can be silly.  I remind myself to just roll with it.


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## JR 137

Headhunter said:


> And that's another issue I have with these comps. Saying she's national number 1 or whatever sounds great but if you're ranked number 1 out of 5 people that's not as great as it sounds


When I was in grad school, Canisius College down the road from us cut a lot of sports from their athletic program.  One sport that they didn’t cut was synchronized swimming.  We were pretty perplexed by that one... cut football, but keep synchronized swimming?  Their justification was they were the number 3 team in the country.  I was the only one with enough sense to look up how many NCAA Div 1 teams there are, as I wondered how popular that sport truly is...

3 NCAA Div 1 synchronized swimming teams at that time.  Yeah, go ahead, brag about being number 3 in the country.  I could see if they said cutting it would kill the sport; I wouldn’t have a single issue with that.  But say you’re keeping them because they’re number 3?

Colleges are pretty stupid.  I should know, I worked for many of them and graduated from a few too.


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## marques

Regarding the first video, some nice moves from one side. But something there (style or rules or level or...) make both seem harmless. Anyway, I believe it was a good experience for both sides.


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## JowGaWolf

Azulx said:


> My Senior Student (Green Belt/Blue Gear) in the Finals against a Freestyle Martial Art Practitioner. Let me know what you think, any feedback and comments are welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She also got 1st place in Forms
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for Watching!


Congrats on having such a talented student.  I like the control in the sparring, she didn't turn it into a game of tag even though she was better skilled than her opponent.  She had good timing with the techniques that she was doing.  There was actual decision making going on vs trying to go at blinding speed in hopes for a tap.  Point sparring has become more of a race than "what technique can I do if someone does this."   She used patience and didn't try to force the technique.  That's rare period regardless of skill level. You can look at her opponent and you can see her opponent try to force the techniques in hopes of landing.  

Not sure how long you have been teaching her but I could have sworn that one of her kicks looks like something I've seen you do in one of your sparring videos.  Even though your student was much better, she didn't waste the opportunity to develop.  She should become really good as long as she doesn't turn her point sparring into a game of Advanced Tag.  The biggest thing that I noticed is that she seems to trust her techniques.  If you watch the other girl you can see that she threw her kicks as if she didn't trust the kick.

As long as she gets better at what she just did, then she should be able to do the same thing to faster opponents who may have a higher skill than her.  She would only need to adjust her timing to match a better opponent, but theoretically if you can land slow stuff, then you should be able to land faster versions of it.  The only thing that should change is the timing and the ability to recognize the movements of someone who is faster.



Azulx said:


> he sparring video is not the best video to receive any type of relevant feed back . Here is a video of her sparring the USKA's number 1 nationally ranked Kyu Rank:


My original comments stand.  She looked a little rattled in that second video and it look like she was trying to "not hurt" her opponent. She stayed calmed but appeared to be intimidated.  Fast punches can sometimes appear to be harder than what they are.  To give you an example, I've been able to make students "Turtle" simply by moving faster.  Even if I didn't hit them, the speed registered as a danger of being hit hard.  Even in the video  it appeared that her opponent was about to land power punches but, they weren't power punches.  This is the hump that she has to get over.   Don't be intimidated by the speed.  It takes time and it should go away once she gets used to fast people striking her.

1. Don't be intimidated by speed
2. Speed does not mean power.  Learn to generate, separate and combine speed and power at will.

Other than that I like what I saw in both video.  Some the changes will come from her growth as a martial artist.  Continuous sparring may help to speed up her growth, but don't take my word on it.  It just depends on the student.  Students and kids at my school used to spar against larger students, higher skilled adults, and instructors. The downside is that they rarely landed a lot of punches in comparison.  The good news is that it was challenging enough to make them better than people on their same skill level.  Sort of like if you want to beat people on your level, then spar against people who are above your level.  You may never "win" but you'll be better than those who are on your level.  It only works for students who don't mind "losing" and care more about "learning."


GOOD POINTS
1. Like in the beginning she didn't bounce.  She was able to get out of range without excessive movement.
2. She made her opponent miss a lot.  Once she learns angles she'll be able to really land points.  She took a lot of hits simply because she went backwards. The rule that I follow and teach is.  Basically:  Go back once.  If they give chase, then go back again and then cut an angle to the side or 45 degree angle forward.  These are difficult things to do, more so the 45 degree forward, but when when you get it, you'll be able to counter.

Go backwards, or "backpedaling" is only good for a couple of steps when you are being pressed.  You can probably get more out of it if you have space and enough distance to begin with, but I personally wouldn't do it more than a couple of steps.  For me "backpedaling" is good for the " Oh Sh*z" moments where you need to create distance really quick, but it's the angle cut that actually gets you out of harms way.  Headhunter has video of his son doing this. His son is good with the angles and you can clearly see in those videos of how the angles mess up the opponent's plan of attack.


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## JowGaWolf

Headhunter said:


> my god I'm glad I keep away from point fighting that was sloppy as hel


Unfortunately that's one of the drawback of most point sparring.  You can afford to be sloppy in areas that would normally result in being physically punished for being sloppy.


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## Kung Fu Wang

JowGaWolf said:


> Unfortunately that's one of the drawback of most point sparring.


The day when I pulled my punch just few inches away from my opponent's face but my opponent didn't, that was the last time that I had done any point sparring. IMO, the more that you do point sparring, the more bad habit that you may develop.


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## CB Jones

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The day when I pulled my punch just few inches away from my opponent's face but my opponent didn't, that was the last time that I had done any point sparring. IMO, the more that you do point sparring, the more bad habit that you may develop.



I disagree

Do you pull all your punches while training?  Hanging bags?

That just seems weird that in a fight with adrenaline pumping...you would pull your punch like in competition.  Typically we see the opposite....people forgetting to pull their punch.


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## CB Jones

JowGaWolf said:


> Go backwards, or "backpedaling" is only good for a couple of steps when you are being pressed. You can probably get more out of it if you have space and enough distance to begin with, but I personally wouldn't do it more than a couple of steps. For me "backpedaling" is good for the " Oh Sh*z" moments where you need to create distance really quick, but it's the angle cut that actually gets you out of harms way.



When it comes to working with my son's movement... we look at movement as a clock face.  The only time he is to move to 6 o'clock is if he is stepping or leaning back from a kick or punch with the intent of exploding back forward (12 o'clock) following the arm or leg as they retract it with a return combination.  His instructor drills this at the dojo and also a friend drills this in his seminars.    

All other times, movement should be from 4 to 7 o'clock to create angles.

We also work on him moving around changing directions but maintaining the spacing of "skip in kick" range.  Against very stationary opponents, he uses alot of "skip in" and feint and then exit just to mix the timing up and create angles when they try to "time" him.  

Against more aggressive opponents, he has a lot of success creating good attack angles just by moving one or two steps at 2-4 or 8-10 o'clock every time his opponent steps forward.  It just puts him a little ahead in timing as his opponent has to re-orient.


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## Headhunter

CB Jones said:


> I disagree
> 
> Do you pull all your punches while training?  Hanging bags?
> 
> That just seems weird that in a fight with adrenaline pumping...you would pull your punch like in competition.  Typically we see the opposite....people forgetting to pull their punch.


Hitting bags is different to fighting.

Have you ever actually done point sparring yourself? Because If you practice sparring In point rules then you get used to pulling punches it becomes part of your muscle memory and you do it whenever you fight trust me it happens so many times with point fighters


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## JowGaWolf

CB Jones said:


> Against more aggressive opponents, he has a lot of success


The more aggressive the better.  Aggressive opponents tend to over commit which makes things easier to deal with. They also tend to move in only one direction.


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## FriedRice

Headhunter said:


> Well hey nothing bad to say about your fighter but the other girl....my god her coach needs to train her exclusively in hands her kicks were terrible. Also needs to work on her defence literally everything your girl threw she landed even some kicks that weren't great herself (mainly that last spinning kick)
> 
> I didn't watch the forms because I don't know taekwondo forms so there's no point



She looked retarded and/or very uncoordinated. It's extremely difficult to teach someone with those special needs. Poor girl was going for it though.


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