# Thoughts on Pak Sau



## kffaner (Feb 3, 2017)

Hi all, I am new to the forum but I hope I will be able to contribute to thoughtful conversations.

So what are your thoughts on Pak sau:

Wing CHun: Paak Sau, Slapping Hand – Martial Arts Academy Online

What are the advantages/disadvantages that you could see? Any of you applied this in practical situation, like a street fight? How did it work? Not work?


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## ShortBridge (Feb 3, 2017)

I pak sao'ed a Canadian Goose right in his stupid face once when my son was about eye level to it and was sharing his crackers with a flock. One got a little close and aggressive, so I sorted it.

I don't recall using it with a person who I wasn't training with. It's a hand I like to use to open up a hole and flow though it. Because of the energy, I don't find it to be a sticking hand and I don't like giving up a perfectly good bridge, so I like to follow the space it creates pretty aggressively.

...And also on surley urban wildlife.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

It won't load the full website for me.

Pak sao is probably the most common and frequent block I have used, whether it was in Chi Sao or in any kind of self-defense situation.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

For me...Pak is an attack...not a block.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> For me...Pak is an attack...not a block.



I too am allergic to the word "block". I wonder why?

I would say it is a "cover", but attack and defense are the same, so we can both be right in this case.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

Agreed. 
Yes, DL teaches WC has no blocks, only covering hands.
I was taught no blocks...only hands that 'cover'...by way of attacking.
Yin...
Yang...


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## ShortBridge (Feb 3, 2017)

There is a post-concussion goose wandering around the PacNW who would agree with you.


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## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

You say covering hands.

I say blocks.

How about we just say "technique" then? Maybe that can avoid a detour into a discussion of semantics and stick to the OP's question.


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## DanT (Feb 3, 2017)

Pak sao is used to defend against primarily straight attacks to the head and chest. It's a pretty standard palm block that's easy to learn. It's quick and simple. Combining it with a punch (pak da) is great too.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 3, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> You say covering hands.
> 
> I say blocks.
> 
> How about we just say "technique" then? Maybe that can avoid a detour into a discussion of semantics and stick to the OP's question.



The OP's question was "...So what are your thoughts on Pak sau...". 

I think there is more than a semantic distinction between blocking, covering, and attacking. I have also experienced that pak saos can look and feel and be used differently lineage to lineage, more so than a lot of the other hands, perhaps.

But, I'm fine with walking away from that quagmire. if it feels like a derail.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 3, 2017)

pak sao is no.1


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## WingChunChick (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> For me...Pak is an attack...not a block.



Same for me. This really goes for every move in with chun, but especially the pak. It's the most direct way of cutting someone off.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2017)

Pak Sao
Can be used to deflect an attack.
Can be used to clear the line for an attack with the opposite limb.
Can be used to clear the line and attack with the same limb.
There are other potential applications.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 3, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Pak Sao
> Can be used to deflect an attack.
> Can be used to clear the line for an attack with the opposite limb.
> Can be used to clear the line and attack with the same limb.
> ...


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## Callen (Feb 3, 2017)

kffaner said:


> So what are your thoughts on Pak sau:


Welcome to the forum!

The Pak Sau is only one of the many tools in the toolbox. It is one part of the whole that should be used in tandem with WC/VT core principals, making it effective. Understanding when to use it is the key. More often than not, that's what determines the advantages/disadvantages of any tool within the system.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

I think here we end up with the "well my Sifu says..." When it comes to Pak Sau.  As an example I have used many, if not all, of the variations of Pak shown in this video.






However I know some people training under other schools of thought would say that some of them aren't _pak sau_ as they understand it and even consider some of the techniques "hand chasing".

In terms of what I think of it, I like it, but it has risks imo when being used to address a strong and fast strike.  You are taking a small surface, your hand, and attempting to make contact with a narrow and fast moving target, the arm.  Due to the size of the hand and the incoming arm there is less margin for error than when say a _tan_ or a _bil_.  I use it A LOT but that is because fighting is dynamic and the fight dictates what you do, as the old saying goes, "no plan survives contact with the enemy" but one has to, again just my opinion, recognize the risks of the _pak_


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## Danny T (Feb 4, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> True. Pak sao can also be used for attacking, joint breaking and throwing


^^^^^^^ With this I very much agree however, there are those who take issue with such applications.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Danny T said:


> ^^^^^^^ With this I very much agree however, there are those who take issue with such applications.




Exactly.  Some people here have insisted that a Pak can really only be done in one way and that would be the classic "forwarding energy catch" targeted at the elbow.  Which is one of the reasons I posted the video I did, it broke down 10 things, 9 of which some people around here may say "no" and get into a semantics battle like "that's not a Pak, it's a side palm" or just "wrong, not Wing Chun."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2017)

I don't like Pak Shou. It tries to use 1 point to intersect a line. It's better to use a line to intersect a line. 

When your opponent uses a spear to stab toward your chest (like a punch), you can use your sword to interest that spear from a 90 degree angle (like to use Pak Shou to block a punch). You can also rotate your spear to block that spear (use a line to intersect a line). IMO, to use spear to block your opponent's spear (just like to use your rotation arm to block your opponent's punching arm) is a much better strategy.


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## Juany118 (Feb 4, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like Pak Shou. It tries to use 1 point to intersect a line. It's better to use a line to intersect a line.
> 
> When your opponent uses a spear to stab toward your chest (like a punch), you can use your sword to interest that spear from a 90 degree angle (like to use Pak Shou to block a punch). You can also rotate your spear to block that spear (use a line to intersect a line). IMO, to use spear to block your opponent's spear (just like to use your rotation arm to block your opponent's punching arm) is a much better strategy.




I agree, in principle but I think part of the issue is pak sau, at least for some of us, isn't just taught as something to stop a spear.  That is simply the most obvious function.  That is why I posted the video I did as it shows a variety of applications for pak, many of which aren't stopping a spear, and those variations are only the tip of the iceberg.

That said, you need to know how to use it to stop a spear quite well imo because sometimes the sword is already in hand and you have no choice but to stop the spear with it because you may not have the time to pick up your spear


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## geezer (Feb 6, 2017)

Danny T said:


> ^^^^^^^ With this I very much agree however,_* there are those who take issue with such applications*_.



Yeah, but they aren't here any more!


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## gojusi (Feb 7, 2017)

The video in the original post is a PERFECT example of a pak sao. The move should almost always be used as a punch AND block at the same time. One hand punches, one hand blocks with the pak sao. Very good technique in my books.

I would probably go one step further and say: the pak sao _can_ be used to slap the opponent's punching arm further and ultimately leave your opponent off balance leaving their ribs open for attack.


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## Danny T (Feb 7, 2017)

gojusi said:


> The video in the original post is a PERFECT example of a pak sao. The move should almost always be used as a punch AND block at the same time. One hand punches, one hand blocks with the pak sao. Very good technique in my books.
> 
> I would probably go one step further and say: the pak sao _can_ be used to slap the opponent's punching arm further and ultimately leave your opponent off balance leaving their ribs open for attack.


What was shown is an excellent example of one (1) way to utilize or apply Pak.


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## wingerjim (Feb 21, 2017)

kffaner said:


> Hi all, I am new to the forum but I hope I will be able to contribute to thoughtful conversations.
> 
> So what are your thoughts on Pak sau:
> 
> ...


So a pak sau is the process of clearing a path. There are some side benefits that can occur such as the possibility of upsetting an opponents balance or trapping an opponents hands, but it's primary purpose is to clear a path for an attack either with the same hand but usually for the other hand. Sure it can be a block but like all Wing Chun techniques it is neither a black or attack and it is both a block and an attack.


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