# Chung Do Kwan vs. Shotokan???



## Eastpointvet (May 31, 2014)

Recently, a friend of mine shared a video on Facebook commenting on a martial art by the name of Chung Do Kwan. After a quick google search, I learned that it was one of the original "kwans" that evolved into modern day Taekwondo. However, I continued to browse through videos when I came upon a Chung Du Kwan tournament. In it, one of the competitors was seemingly performing what appeared to be an extremely accelerated version of Bassai Dai and then Tekki Shodan.

So, has anyone heard of Chung Do Kwan? If so, what are your opinions of it? Why are the katas almost identical to Shotokan?


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## MAist25 (May 31, 2014)

Yes, Chung Do Kwan was one of the original kwans of Taekwondo. All of the early Taekwondo kwans pretty much practiced Karate kata. As far as why Chung Do Kwan guys perform their forms this way, I have no idea but its absolutely terrible. This is not how forms are practiced by most Taekwondoin, and especially not how they would have been performed in the original kwans.


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## Eastpointvet (Jun 1, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Yes, Chung Do Kwan was one of the original kwans of Taekwondo. All of the early Taekwondo kwans pretty much practiced Karate kata. As far as why Chung Do Kwan guys perform their forms this way, I have no idea but its absolutely terrible. This is not how forms are practiced by most Taekwondoin, and especially not how they would have been performed in the original kwans.



Agreed. There are quite a lot of videos showing off this poor technique on Youtube. Along with that, everyone seems to have a black belt.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MAist25 (Jun 1, 2014)

Yea, I have seen quite a few of them. I think I remember reading somewhere that they practice their forms at "full speed" because it is more realistic to how the techniques would be executed in combat. This is obviously ridiculous, and training forms at this speed has no real benefit for the practitioner. It also shows a poor understanding of the purpose of forms practice. 

It is actually quite interesting to me that these are Taekwondo practitioners that are training in forms this way because the original kwan founders certainly had a much better understanding of kata than is portrayed here. I believe this way of training forms is not typical for Chung Do Kwan practitioners. I think the people you see practicing in this video belong to the World Martial Arts Association and I believe this way of training is unique to just their organization.


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## Grenadier (Jun 1, 2014)

Having practiced both Chung Do Kwan and Shotokan Karate, I may be able to offer some insight...

What you see out of one branch of Chung Do Kwan might not be seen in another branch.  For example, one faction may use the Tae Guk and Pal Gae series of forms for the gup rankings (below black belt), while another faction could very well use the Pyung Ahn (very similar to Shotokan Heian) series of forms for their gup ranking holders.  For some schools, their dan ranking holders might similarly practice forms that are similar to the Shotokan kata (Ship Soo = Jitte, Pal Sek = Bassai Dai, etc), whereas other schools will choose the other path of studying a different series of form (Koryo, Kumgang, etc).  

It all depends on the lineage.  

That being said, I do not believe that the video shown in the OP is *not* typical of most Chung Do Kwan schools, or at least the overwhelming majority with whom I am familiar.  

I can say that we never practiced form this way.  The way we practiced form was much akin to how a traditional JKA dojo would practice Shotokan Karate kata (we used Taeguk / Pal Gae / Dal Hyung, which were distinctly different from Shotokan's Heian).  Each move was distinct, even ones that were chained together (and smoothly, too).  Form was never rushed, and there was always an emphasis on maximizing the use of the whole body when throwing techniques.  Hips would remain level (no bouncing up and down), and each technique was strongly focused.  

I don't know what someone has to benefit from practicing it in the way shown above, so I'll simply leave it up that that faction, and their methods, and will disagree with them.


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## dancingalone (Jun 1, 2014)

Eastpointvet said:


> So, has anyone heard of Chung Do Kwan? If so, what are your opinions of it? Why are the katas almost identical to Shotokan?



I think the example video you linked is from one CDK lineage through a Michael Dealy.  His group became infamous in some circles after a Youtube link made the rounds and went viral here and elsewhere like Facebook.  For some reason, they think that running forms as fast as you can even if that means slurring the techniques beyond recognition is good training.  

Meh,  Different strokes for different folks.  However, not every CDK lineage is like that.  In my youth, I studied a TKD style that came from one of the earliest CDK black belts, and we definitely didn't perform forms this way.  You can also view the sample Pyung Ahn (Heian) forms here by another CDK lineage group:  ChungDoKwan USA - White and Colored Belt Form Videos  I much prefer their style of execution.


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## dancingalone (Jun 1, 2014)

As for why the CDK forms are Shotokan-like, it's because the CDK founder Won Kuk Lee studied Shotokan karate in Japan.  A former member here who interviewed him says GM Lee spent a lot of time with Gichin Funakoshi's son, Yoshitaka Funakoshi.


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## jorgemp (Jun 7, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> I think I remember reading somewhere that they practice their forms at "full speed" because it is more realistic to how the techniques would be executed in combat. This is obviously ridiculous, .



Really? Probably, all practitioner should perform forms at full speed at least occasionally.


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## MAist25 (Jun 7, 2014)

^^^ Nope, I disagree completely.


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## jorgemp (Jun 7, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> ^^^ Nope, I disagree completely.



If you are involved in a street fight, you will have to move yourself very quickly.

Japanese and Korean karates hand techniques are good to develop potency, but in a real fight you will need velocity.

Here is the difference:

POTENCY






QUICKNESS


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## MAist25 (Jun 7, 2014)

Yea, speed is absolutely important is a self defense situation. Doing forms the way the guys in the OP are doing them is totally wrong. You are not learning anything valuable to self defense by doing forms that way. The only thing you are doing is doing the forms incorrectly.


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## jorgemp (Jun 8, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Yea, speed is absolutely important is a self defense situation. Doing forms the way the guys in the OP are doing them is totally wrong. You are not learning anything valuable to self defense by doing forms that way. The only thing you are doing is doing the forms incorrectly.



Even forms may be practiced from a combat position, not using a traditional hikite. 

For example, instead of using a traditional, unrealistic (but useful to develop strength) gedan barai, a boxing blocking may be used in "combat katas":










Also, oi tsukis may be substituted by jabs or crosses.


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## MAist25 (Jun 8, 2014)

Practicing sequences from kata with a partner at a fast speed can be beneficial, sure. Practicing the entire form at a fast speed, not so much. You just really aren't gonna get anything out of it.


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## jorgemp (Jun 8, 2014)

51 Awesome Ways to Practice Kata | KARATEbyJesse


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## MAist25 (Jun 8, 2014)

Do kata on a friends shoulders? Do kata with a snorkel? Uhhhh, who is this guy?


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> Really? Probably, all practitioner should perform forms at full speed at least occasionally.



That's true, but do you understand why?



MAist25 said:


> Practicing sequences from kata with a partner at a fast speed can be beneficial, sure. Practicing the entire form at a fast speed, not so much. You just really aren't gonna get anything out of it.



I would offer an alternate opinion but I would like to hear from *jorgemp* first.



jorgemp said:


> 51 Awesome Ways to Practice Kata | KARATEbyJesse



Not many are awesome. Which ones do you think are awesome and why?



MAist25 said:


> Do kata on a friends shoulders? Do kata with a snorkel? Uhhhh, who is this guy?


Jesse Enkamp ... The 3 Types of Bunkai (Omote, Ura & Honto) | KARATEbyJesse

He has some good ideas and some wacky ones. Most of his 51 ways are wacky, IMHO.
:asian:


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## jorgemp (Jun 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> That's true, but do you understand why?



In a real fight, you couldn´t make a perfect zenkutsu, for example. A real fight implies quickness.

Even in this orthodox bunkai, an adapted technique (different from the original one) is seen in 0:10 and 0:11.


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## K-man (Jun 9, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> In a real fight, you couldn´t make a perfect zenkutsu, for example. A real fight implies quickness.
> 
> Even in this orthodox bunkai, an adapted technique (different from the original one) is seen in 0:10 and 0:11.


I have a very simple philosophy. If you wouldn't use it in a pub fight it isn't karate. Now it's not that what is in the video isn't real karate but it is just kihon. It is a simple explanation and bears little resemblance to reality. In fact with multiple attackers the whole principle of kata as a fighting system goes out the door. What you have here is choreography with participants taking turns to attack. 

As for zenkutsu dachi. For me it was never a fighting stance. In fact the Japanese version is much deeper than the Okinawan which makes it  even more impractical. However when you start to explore the stances in depth you may find the perfect zenkutsu application in a real fight.
:asian:


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## punisher73 (Jun 9, 2014)

MAist25 said:


> Practicing sequences from kata with a partner at a fast speed can be beneficial, sure. Practicing the entire form at a fast speed, not so much. You just really aren't gonna get anything out of it.



Occasionally, we go through our kata as fast as we can.  It does serve a purpose.  It can help simulate the chaos of a fight.  You find out when your center of gravity comes up and you lose your stance, you find out other places that you lose balance.  You find out when you start to lose technique.  You can really start to find out what you really own of that material.


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## jorgemp (Jun 10, 2014)

*K-man;*



> I have a very simple philosophy. If you wouldn't use it in a pub fight it isn't karate.



Then, only krav maga is karate.

Krav maga is real karate + real aikido + real etc.

In a real fight, of course, elegant movements are difficult to be performed. 








> Now it's not that what is in the video isn't real karate but it is just kihon. It is a simple explanation and bears little resemblance to reality.



It is only an exercise; it is fantasy. 




> In fact with multiple attackers the whole principle of kata as a fighting system goes out the door. What you have here is choreography with participants taking turns to attack


.

In a real life situation, some attackers often intend to immobilize you, while you are attacked by other persons.








> As for zenkutsu dachi. For me it was never a fighting stance. In fact the Japanese version is much deeper than the Okinawan which makes it  even more impractical.



Those positions are more useful in kobudo.



> However when you start to explore the stances in depth you may find the perfect zenkutsu application in a real fight.



Basic techniques are a good exercise to develop strength, balance, coordination, etc.


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## K-man (Jun 10, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> *K-man;*
> 
> Then, only krav maga is karate.
> 
> ...


:asian:


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## jorgemp (Jun 10, 2014)

*K-man
*


> _Then, only krav maga is karate._
> 
> _Totally incorrect._



In a real life situation, normally you will have to fight in a manner similar to krav maga.

Even in MMA, crane positions are not used. Karate kid is only a move.



> _Krav maga is real karate + real aikido + real etc._
> _
> Real Karate is real Karate._



A real case is a real case. The following video shows a real case:









> _In a real fight, of course, elegant movements are difficult to be performed. _
> _
> So why would you bother with them when they are not necessary?_




I believe that if a person practices thousands of times a traditional soto uke, for example, it could be used in a simplified form in a real case, for example, against a hammer attack (like in the previous video).








Neverthless, systems such as kajukenbo or lima lama use always simplified blockage forms.




> _It is only an exercise; it is fantasy. _
> 
> _Not a fantasy but the simplest (kihon) explanation._



Even ippon kumite is fantasy, because in a real case, your attacker will not be waiting for you.
_._



> _In a real life situation, some attackers often intend to immobilize you, while you are attacked by other persons.
> 
> __Wow! That is groundbreaking news. _



The following video shows a real attack. This is not a bunkai, a "choreography with participants taking turns to attack". 

To be really trained, a karateka should practice kumite against two, three or four sparring partners.








> _Those positions are more useful in kobudo._
> 
> _We are talking about Karate._



Some positions that are used in karate, really are a kobudo training.

I believe that even katas like naifanchi perhaps were designed as horse riding fighting techniques.








> _Basic techniques are a good exercise to develop strength, balance, coordination, etc._
> _
> Only a small part of their reason for being. Basic techniques are the bread and butter of any system. It is knowing how to use those basic techniques that counts._



Really, basic techniques are trained in kihon and prearranged kumite, but even in a free kumite or shiai, more simplified movements are used. In a street fight, movements will be even more simplified.

This gyaku tsuki will be wrongful in kihon, ippon kumite or kata:
:


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## K-man (Jun 11, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> *K-man
> *In a real life situation, normally you will have to fight in a manner similar to krav maga.
> 
> I agree with this to a certain extent. Certainly Krav contains a lot of karate techniques and more are included as you progress. However Krav also has a lot of Muay Thai techniques as well as some BJJ. I probably don't teach the clinching so much in karate but I do teach Krav style clinching against weapons.
> ...


:asian:


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## jorgemp (Jun 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> :asian:





> _Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I would suggest that the only defence is a reflex defensive block raising the arms combined with a reflex pull back of the head. In this instance it wasn't enough. It's like a sucker punch. You have very little chance of responding in time to totally protect yourself._




Unfortunately, that is a big true: in a real case, often it is very difficult to make a good defense because the attack is unexpected.

Let´s see another case: 1:34 to 1:36. The man who received the punch could have been an expert is age uke and uchi uke, or even could have been a boxer, but the attack occured very fast:


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## K-man (Jun 11, 2014)

jorgemp said:


> Unfortunately, that is a big true: in a real case, often it is very difficult to make a good defense because the attack is unexpected.
> 
> Let´s see another case: 1:34 to 1:36. The man who received the punch could have been an expert is age uke and uchi uke, or even could have been a boxer, but the attack occured very fast:


There are a number of issues here. One is the monkey dance thing. It is a consensual fight. That is it didn't have to happen but the macho male ego is standing out. Then the big guy is standing there with his hands down challenging. Unfortunately for him the other guy knew how to punch. To defend the big guy's hands had to move twice as far as the punch. An impossible feat. The other mistake was the big guy's body positioning relative to the guy who hit him. First rule is not to be in your opponent's striking range. Combine those two and 'good night'!
:asian:


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## blindsage (Jun 12, 2014)

I have found myself in this position in free hard contact sparring against a Kyokushin black belt, and it left him at a distinct disadvantage. Traditional movements aren't always what they superficially seem.


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## Blade~ (Jun 12, 2014)

I never participated on any tournament but knew quite a few people both from our schools and others and I asked them why they do the forms so fast? They said because it's the 'crowed pleaser version' the audience like flashy moves. Most people from the audience don't know what the performers do, they just like the fast moves.

Forgot to add: I also see more and more black belts with common mistakes beginners make, not sure how they achieved their belts.


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