# Self Defense Technique Design.....



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 13, 2003)

Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.

What do we need to do to enhance this?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.
> 
> What do we need to do to enhance this?
> ...


Devise a plan for what you want to happen. If you want you opponent to loose his balance and fall on some sharp rock then I would not advise hitting him in the groin (or any other posture affecting moves). Reversly if you want to end a fight by doubling the guy over I wouldn't upper cut the guy in the face after succsessfully doubeling him over. "Sword and Hammer" is all well and good to teach body reactions; however, you are better off choosing to do a Hammer then sword to the back of the neck or reversly, a sword then left heelpalm to the chin.(which is of course "tripping arrow" on the otherside). I will now calmly wait for the barrage of insults...
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Oct 14, 2003)

> Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.





> What do we need to do to enhance this?



I think that if the techniques are preformed properly than nothing needs to be done for enhancement.  If I were to point out a big flaw in what I see people do, is people speed through their techniques without monitoring or hitting stances or hitting with power.  It's not hard to smack a guy 10 times really fast, but I'd rather drop my opponent with one hard shot, cuz, well...I'm lazy. LOL.    I think the techiniques are fine as written but I've seen way too many people speed demon through techniques without even giving the opponent time to react.  There are times to move super quick and there are times to wait a second to see what your opponent does.  That's just my opinion.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 14, 2003)

> I think the techiniques are fine as written but I've seen way too many people speed demon through techniques without even giving the opponent time to react.



And why would you want to give your opponent TIME to react?  If the techniques are fine as written, then they will take into account the NATURAL reaction of your opponents body when using a specific sequence of strikes.  Otherwise if your opponent doesn't *GIVE YOU* the proper reaction your technique falls apart.  



> "Sword and Hammer" is all well and good to teach body reactions; however, you are better off choosing to do a Hammer then sword to the back of the neck or reversly, a sword then left heelpalm to the chin.(which is of course "tripping arrow" on the otherside).



I don't guess I understand why I'm better off by hammering to the groin and then hitting to the back off the neck.


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## kenpo12 (Oct 14, 2003)

> And why would you want to give your opponent TIME to react? If the techniques are fine as written, then they will take into account the NATURAL reaction of your opponents body when using a specific sequence of strikes. Otherwise if your opponent doesn't GIVE YOU the proper reaction your technique falls apart.



Yes, and no.  Timing cannot be written into the technique.  It can be taught by a qualified instructor, but the same timing does not apply for every situation.  Let me give you an example of what I mean.
  If I do Five Swords and I do the block and chop and my opponent flies backwards a foot or so, I need to wait a second before I do the heel palm or else he won't be there for it.  I can either wait for him to rush back in and then fire it, or I can shuffle after him with the heel palm.   In doing so I'm not changing the technique but I'm monitoring and timing my strikes.


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## ikenpo (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.
> 
> What do we need to do to enhance this?
> ...



I would say a platform that supports such enhancements. In general Kenpo doesn't seem to be designed to encourage innovation and updating within the system. After all you're spending the majority of your life just trying to complete the 16 tech curriculum or 24 for that matter. The structure is designed to achieve a particular outcome. To me that outcome isn't to eventually "enhance" the existing techniques.  In essence, I guess I'm saying is that structure and traditionalism has tighten its fingers around the neck of American Kenpo. Even the Tracy's have A,B,C,D & E versions on how to pee. Those that do innovate are called on their disloyalty to the genious of the SGM. I love the system, but this complaint, in my opinion, is basically why most go out side of the system to get a breath of fresh air and to see updated, innovated information. And not because of the bs, "your instructor just isn't that good" arguement that most give. 

The system is designed to support the heirarchy and that is both our strength and our downfall because our Seniors are primarily just trying to teach what they already know and not introduce anything "new". That's one of the many reasons I do respect Paul Mills, Doc Chape'l, Skip Hancock, Ron Braughton and others that are to the left of center. 

jb:asian:


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## kenpo_cory (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Those that do innovate are called on their disloyalty to the genious of the SGM.*



Yeah, my insructor has been dealing with this for a while now. That's why he doesn't belong to any organization. The funny thing is Mr. Parker supported what my insructor was doing but noone else does.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *And why would you want to give your opponent TIME to react?  If the techniques are fine as written, then they will take into account the NATURAL reaction of your opponents body when using a specific sequence of strikes.  Otherwise if your opponent doesn't GIVE YOU the proper reaction your technique falls apart.
> 
> 
> ...


Well, it keeps your opponent headed in the same direction. The Tech Sword and Hammer, gives you two directions. My question to you is, why one and then the other?


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## ikenpo (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *Yeah, my insructor has been dealing with this for a while now. That's why he doesn't belong to any organization. The funny thing is Mr. Parker supported what my insructor was doing but noone else does. *



I actually have all of the issues of Full Contact with his articles and photos in them. What would define as "what he's doing" or what his primary direction is that others might not have supported? He was a high ranking Pick Black Belt from the Pacific Northwest for a long time, right?

jb:asian:


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## Elfan (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Devise a plan for what you want to happen. If you want you opponent to loose his balance and fall on some sharp rock then I would not advise hitting him in the groin (or any other posture affecting moves). Reversly if you want to end a fight by doubling the guy over I wouldn't upper cut the guy in the face after succsessfully doubeling him over. "Sword and Hammer" is all well and good to teach body reactions; however, you are better off choosing to do a Hammer then sword to the back of the neck or reversly, a sword then left heelpalm to the chin.(which is of course "tripping arrow" on the otherside). I will now calmly wait for the barrage of insults...
> Sean *



So in less words, choose you're tactics to support your strategy?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *So in less words, choose you're tactics to support your strategy? *


Absolutly!


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## MJS (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *Yes, and no.  Timing cannot be written into the technique.  It can be taught by a qualified instructor, but the same timing does not apply for every situation.  Let me give you an example of what I mean.
> If I do Five Swords and I do the block and chop and my opponent flies backwards a foot or so, I need to wait a second before I do the heel palm or else he won't be there for it.  I can either wait for him to rush back in and then fire it, or I can shuffle after him with the heel palm.   In doing so I'm not changing the technique but I'm monitoring and timing my strikes. *



If the guy moves back far enough where you can no longer reach him, then he can't reach you either right? So, why wait around??? Get the heck out of there!  Why stand around, so he can come back at you???

Mike


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## kenpo_cory (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I actually have all of the issues of Full Contact with his articles and photos in them. What would define as "what he's doing" or what his primary direction is that others might not have supported? He was a high ranking Pick Black Belt from the Pacific Northwest for a long time, right?
> 
> jb:asian: *



He was in Mr. Pick's organization for a while and received his 5th black from Mr. Pick. Since then he's kinda gone his own route and made his own innovations to the art that have certain other black belts in the system that don't even know him saying "Well, I don't agree with that because he doesn't have the authority to do that."  I don't want to name any names or go into details on the forum but I would be more than happy to talk with you through PMs or email or something.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 15, 2003)

> Well, it keeps your opponent headed in the same direction. The Tech Sword and Hammer, gives you two directions. My question to you is, why one and then the other?



It has been my experience that hitting one exposes the other.  It doesn't matter in which order the strikes are done.


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## kenpo12 (Oct 15, 2003)

> If the guy moves back far enough where you can no longer reach him, then he can't reach you either right? So, why wait around??? Get the heck out of there! Why stand around, so he can come back at you???



I don't dissagree but I'm not saying that the guy is out of range necessarily he may just be out of contact penetration range.  I'm also not saying you're standing around, I'm talking about timing, as in tenths of seconds, not hitting a guy and standing around, c'mon.


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## cdhall (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.
> 
> What do we need to do to enhance this?
> ...



Practice. Perfectly of course.
Practice makes permanent.
Perfect practice makes perfect permanent.


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## ikenpo (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Practice. Perfectly of course.
> Practice makes permanent.
> Perfect practice makes perfect permanent. *



Nothing like an old cliche to put everything in perspective..


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> * The Tech Sword and Hammer, gives you two directions. My question to you is, why one and then the other? *



S&H is for a right flank, left shoulder grab. If the grab is an assault, the purpose is to hold you in position for a strike. The path of the handsword to his neck is also a check for his strike if it is already launched. If not, either strike (neck or groin) would be effective. But striking the groin first would leave you open to his attack, which, if launched at the same time as the grab, would probably land before yours.


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## MisterMike (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *S&H is for a right flank, left shoulder grab. If the grab is an assault, the purpose is to hold you in position for a strike. The path of the handsword to his neck is also a check for his strike if it is already launched. If not, either strike (neck or groin) would be effective. But striking the groin first would leave you open to his attack, which, if launched at the same time as the grab, would probably land before yours. *



I agree. We don't have any defenses against a grab where we directly strike the groin. We always canel off the other hand (Gripping Talon) then strike the groin.

Also, Sword and Hammer is kind of a prelude to Falcons of Force don't ya think? We hit the throat first there as well.

It's all good :asian:


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> * If I were to point out a big flaw in what I see people do, is people speed through their techniques without monitoring or hitting stances or hitting with power. ... There are times to move super quick and there are times to wait a second to see what your opponent does.*



I agree with that. Five Swords was used as an example in another post, so I'll use it too. The initial block and handsword are done fast, as is the third move- left finger thrust to his eyes. The finger thrust doesn't require a lot of power to achieve its desired effect. In fact, he'll probably flinch back and distend his abdomen even if you don't make contact. So you don't have lock out the forward bow.

However, you could make the third strike a power strike and solidly lock out the forward bow. The timeing is slightly slower, so I prefer the transitional stance here, not locked out.

The right neutral bow and uppercut is a power strike, which bends him forward and sets up your next strike. Left foot to 4:30 into a right forward bow with left outward handsword to his left mastoid. This forward bow could be either transitional or power also. I like the power, or locked out stance for two reasons as it relates to this discussion. First, it allows him the time to react, bending forward from the uppercut. Second, if done too quickly, the handsword and crane (next move) more resemble a reach and grab than strike and crane. You not only loose the effect of the strike, but reaching for an opponent who hasn't had time to react could effect your ballance.

You can do a lot of changeups with Five Swords, but you have to consider the effects of timeing on any changes. The reaction will probably be there, if not you compensate. Same if it varries in timeing or intensity with different opponents. But even with an immediate reaction, it takes time for the movement it causes to complete. I think the challenge is to judge the motion and te timeing and use the proper tools to deal with both.


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## Bill Lear (Oct 15, 2003)

> *Originally Posted By Kenpo12:*
> 
> _If I were to point out a big flaw in what I see people do, is people speed through their techniques without monitoring or hitting stances or hitting with power. ... There are times to move super quick and there are times to wait a second to see what your opponent does._



1. Monitor
2. Adjust
3. Regulate

It's good to see someone employing this idea to their Kenpo.


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

Another example of the same thing is Snaping Twig. After the elbow break, you pivot into a forward bow and crane his arm, pulling him in to you, as you deliver a handsword to his neck. A transitional forward bow is quicker, but locked out is more powerful for both the pull and the strike, bringing him more sharply off ballance and helpless to defend. Either gets the reaction, and works. But taking the extra millisecond or so instead of rushing it gets better results.


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

*Sword and Hammer* 


> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *It has been my experience that hitting one exposes the other.  It doesn't matter in which order the strikes are done. *



Is there a *doc tor* (Chapel) in the house?

Hopefully he will see this and can confirm or debunk it. But I think hitting the groin first and bending him over would cause you to have to alter the angle of delivery for your handsword, anteriorly rotating the hand and arm in order to strike up under his chin to the neck. This would put a lot of strain on your entire arm, especially at the shoulder. A hard strike could dammage you as well as him. I seem to recall this one comeing up somewhere before.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 15, 2003)

> But I think hitting the groin first and bending him over would cause you to have to alter the angle of delivery for your handsword



Ok first off, hitting someone in the groin doesn't cause them to bend over.  It usually just causes them to drop their height and push their butt out a little bit, but they don't really bend over at the waist.   Most people do sword and hammer by executing a right outward chop to the neck, retracting the hand back to the body, and then firing the hammerfist to the groin.  This is all well and good but requires two strokes and doesn't make the best use of the obscure zone.  

I do Sword and hammer in such a way that I am able to hit the neck on the outstroke and hit the groin on the return stroke without having to rotate my arm really at all except to dig the strikes a little (this is one way that Mr. Mills has taught the technique).  It is obscure, expedient, and most importantly effective.  Also with this method I don't have to wait for my opponents reaction to decide if I can execute the next strike.  The effect of the technique is maximized by, but not reliant on, my opponents reaction.  

Also, by simply reversing the order of the strikes you can hammer the opponents groin which drops his weight right into the lifting reverse handsword.   Remember the side of the neck, the throat, and the groin are all soft tissue targets; good targeting and some body mechanics are all you need to make this technique work you don't have to take anyones head off.  Of course if the situation dictates such action then do what you gotta do.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 15, 2003)

> A hard strike could dammage you as well as him. I seem to recall this one comeing up somewhere before.



That's why it is imperative to train both the what and the how.  A lot of people will tell you that it is the why that is important, and to some degree it is, but of equal importance is the how.  How do you throw a punch in order to maximize its effect?  At what angle of rotation does the elbow move out of alignment subsequently diminshing your potential power for that punch while increasing the likelihood of hurting yourself.  The same should be learned for elbows, handswords (normal and reverse), kicks of all kinds, etc, etc.

When you do certain movements you need to know what will maximize your strike without causing injury to yourself.  I'm sure you have all seen the karate guys who end up needing surgery on their shoulders and elbows, after years of improper movement.  Learn your bodies limitations people, this includes proper angles of movement, appropriate speeds, etc.


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

Maybe bend forwardwould have been a better way to say it. Bending doesn't necessarily mean bringing the head all the way down. But the angle of delivery of the handsword has to change both due to his altered posture and the new point of origin of your attack. 

I'd agree that returning the hand to the body would be a waste of motion. From the handsword, the fist should arc directly down to the groin.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 15, 2003)

> But the angle of delivery of the handsword has to change both due to his altered posture and the new point of origin of your attack.



After you hammer to the groin are you lifting to the throat with a reverse handsword (i.e. thumb side not blade side)?  The changing of his posture is what gives the h.s. a little extra power, you don't want him to quit moving before you lift.  You hammer and fire the lifting h.s. immediately  to take advantage of your opponents downward movement.


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## dcence (Oct 15, 2003)

> Our Self Defense Techniques were designed to cause an opponent to react in a specific way so that you can reasonably forecast the sequence of action that you are to follow.
> 
> What do we need to do to enhance this?



Do it "Harder, Faster"   

If you wait for reaction, you will always be one step behind it.

Derek


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## dcence (Oct 15, 2003)

> Also, Sword and Hammer is kind of a prelude to Falcons of Force don't ya think? We hit the throat first there as well.



Falcons of Force would be an example of a gaseous interrpretation of Sword and Hammer, much like Snakes of Wisdom provides a gaseous application of Obscure Claws.

Derek


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 15, 2003)

First of all the hammer fist to the groin would be faster than the handsword to the neck. (it is by far the closest weapon to the closest target)
Secondly its still ok to use your left hand to check high and flow into an activated check which will naturaly flow into a pushing or pulling down of the head (perhaps with his hair in your fist).
Thirdly, in this case you would simply chamber your hammerfist to your hip and sword hand him in the back of the neck.

Adding a reverse sword hand to the throat would negate what I was talking about to begin with. 
Sean


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## Bill Lear (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Falcons of Force would be an example of a gaseous interrpretation of Sword and Hammer, much like Snakes of Wisdom provides a gaseous application of Obscure Claws.
> 
> Derek *



According to what I know... Not even close.


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## kenpo12 (Oct 15, 2003)

> If you wait for reaction, you will always be one step behind it.



When you say this, are you referring to your opponents voluntary or involuntary reaction?  I'm not saying wait for your opponent to react, I'm saying don't get ahead of what your strikes or manipulations are doing to your opponents body.


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *After you hammer to the groin are you lifting to the throat with a reverse handsword (i.e. thumb side not blade side)?  The changing of his posture is what gives the h.s. a little extra power, you don't want him to quit moving before you lift.  You hammer and fire the lifting h.s. immediately  to take advantage of your opponents downward movement. *



No, I used the regular handsword. A reverse handsword would make more sense for this modification, though.


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## ob2c (Oct 15, 2003)

Just to take this a little further, what about Swinging Pendulum, where we actually delay his reaction to the groin shot with a left check while we move into position for the right elbow strike. That's another one where you could concievably injure yourself if you rush it and roll the shoulder forward to get a good angle. At the least, if you strike before you solidify the stance you'd loose power.


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 15, 2003)

the flexibility of Kenpo..... many of the answers are correct if put into perspective.

Are we talking "Ideal" or "What if"?

In the "what if" arena.... a strike to the groin may be the only option you have...... due to many circumstances and it CAN be as effective as anything else.  So to say it is "not effective <or> better" than something else is not exactly accurate.  When we need to alter techniques {and believe me, you will on the street} you have been given many-a-tool to help you [which many of you have used] to create a viable "new" sequence that is more than adequate.  Realize that you still need to stay within principled bounds.

Keep in mind the:

* EQUATION FORMULA
The FORMULA is: to any given base move whether it 
is a single move or a series of movements, you can: 
(1) PREFIX it, add a move or moves before it, 
(2) SUFFIX it, add a move or moves after it, 
(3) INSERT, add a simultaneous move with the 
    already established sequence, 
(4) REARRANGE, change the sequence of the moves, (5) ALTER the weapon, the target, or both, 
(6) ADJUST the range, the angle of execution, or 
    both the angle of execution and the range, 
(7) REGULATE the speed, the force, both speed and 
    force, intent and speed, 
(8) DELETE, exclude a move or moves from the 
    sequence

most of you are using one or more of the above to create a viable alternative to the original "ideal" technique which is as it should be!

Gold Star for all!

:asian:


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## Zoran (Oct 16, 2003)

If no one minds the opinion of a American Kenpo cousin.



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *When we need to alter techniques {and believe me, you will on the street} you have been given many-a-tool to help you [which many of you have used] to create a viable "new" sequence that is more than adequate.  Realize that you still need to stay within principled bounds.
> *



As GD7 states, the techs are tools. All prearanged techs are in the ideal phase. Meaning they work exactly if attacked by a person exactly as the tech is designed for and the attacker reacts exactly as the tech calls for and you do not miss any targets during the heat of battle.

Changing any of the above will change the tech. Which brings you to the what-if. What-if they don't bend over after striking the groin, what-if they body position is different after the first strike they throw, what-if you are fighting in California during an earthquake...  

After that you will need to learn to be spontaneous. For EPAK, using the equation GD7 provides, learning your ideal and what-ifs, and other drills; will get you to that point.

I am a firm believer that you need to first learn your system, then really spend a great deal of time understanding your system (imo, two different things). Keep an open mind, and don't get into the habit of just dismissing something as "wrong", just look at it as there may be better options in a particular scenerio. 2+2=4, but so does 1+3, 5-1. or ((5x5)-13)/3.


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## Bill Lear (Oct 16, 2003)

In response to Mr. Conatser's post above I have to say that when you get good enough, the _"what if phase"_ is a transitional phase that should bring you right back into another _"ideal phase"_ technique (or portion of one). This is where the _"equation formula"_ (grafting/inserting) comes into play.

Clyde calls this type of transition the _"even if phase"_, and I'm finding that it works rather well... Kinda like going from *Locked Wing* into *Flight To Freedom*. All of the techniques supplement each other in this way. You just have to look hard enough and it's there already.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *In response to Mr. Conatser's post above I have to say that when you get good enough, the "what if phase" is a transitional phase that should bring you right back into another "ideal phase" technique (or portion of one). This is where the "equation formula" (grafting/inserting) comes into play.
> 
> Clyde calls this type of transition the "even if phase", and I'm finding that it works rather well... Kinda like going from Locked Wing into Flight To Freedom. All of the techniques supplement each other in this way. You just have to look hard enough and it's there already.  *


But in the mean time its ok to Pick targets, use the equation formula, and move from point of origin like everyone else, isn't it? And didn't Arnold ban earthquakes?


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## Bill Lear (Oct 16, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Touch'O'Death *
> 
> _But in the mean time its ok to Pick targets, use the equation formula, and move from point of origin like everyone else, isn't it? And didn't Arnold ban earthquakes? _



How are you not moving from point of origin when initiating *Flight To Freedom* after the elbow strike in *Locked Wing* is blocked by your opponent?

And... No Arnold didn't ban Earthquakes. I wish he'd ban dumb asses though. 

Who loves ya baby? :lol:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

Then you'd have to move. HA HA HA
Anyways, I'm suggesting these techs don't need to be memorized and performed from ideal to ideal. In fact, they rarely are.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 16, 2003)

> Then you'd have to move. HA HA HA
> Anyways, I'm suggesting these techs don't need to be memorized and performed from ideal to ideal. In fact, they rarely are.



That's funny  .  I think what Billy is trying to point out is that a number of the techniques are essentially progressive stages of an attack.  In Billys example you try for locked wing and the BADGUY blocks your left arm with his left hand, then you simply step out and execute Flight to Freedom.  There are some that start from completely out of range, work through all the ranges all the way to the ground, and then have you finsh with a ground escape.  It is important to understand these otherwise you just have a bunch of random techniques.  If you don't know how the system works together than you are missing the heart of the system.


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## Bill Lear (Oct 16, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo *
> 
> _That's funny  .  I think what Billy is trying to point out is that a number of the techniques are essentially progressive stages of an attack.  In Billys example you try for locked wing and the BADGUY blocks your left arm with his left hand, then you simply step out and execute Flight to Freedom.  There are some that start from completely out of range, work through all the ranges all the way to the ground, and then have you finsh with a ground escape.  It is important to understand these otherwise you just have a bunch of random techniques.  If you don't know how the system works together than you are missing the heart of the system. _



*THANK YOU!* :asian:


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## Bill Lear (Oct 16, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Touch'O'Death *
> 
> _Then you'd have to move. HA HA HA
> Anyways, I'm suggesting these techs don't need to be memorized and performed from ideal to ideal. In fact, they rarely are. _



I'm sorry, then, that the majority of Kenpo practitoners out there are missing out.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *I'm sorry, then, that the majority of Kenpo practitoners out there are missing out.
> *


The techs are merely study's of motion. Of course you benefit from practicing them to a catagory completion. However, Ed Parker merely drew on instances in fights he had personaly been in to then create and polish an official technique... not the other friggin way around. This Magic utopian warrior you claim you shall become once youv'e finaly internalized the very last technique is a pipe dream. Yes, thank God, you have versed yourself in the myriad of tactics that Kenpo has in store for you, but your fight is in the "now", the targets present themselves "now" and this is no time to wonder wheather or not you should finish "Sword of Destruction" with "Raking Mace" or maby finish with a  "charging ram" idea now thet you have him bent over. Your goals will call for the tactics needed. While I suggest working your Family related moves catagories as groups and in groups. To acheive this "Heart Of Kenpo", you need not memorize the names of the techs within the catagory. Just train the catagory!!!!!!! 
Ei yie yie.
 :soapbox: 
Sean


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 16, 2003)

Time to take the garbage out!



> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> The techs are merely study's of motion. Of course you benefit from practicing them to a category completion.
> Sean *



All good~!



> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> Ed Parker merely drew on instances in fights he had personally been in to then create and polish an official technique...
> Sean *



While many of the technique had "realistic or actual street memories" that spawned their existence..... many were developed in the "studio" from several students experiences and the rest were inserted to complete the possibilities.



> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> Your fight is in the "now", the targets present themselves "now".
> Sean *



Also a very true statement.  However I think you misunderstand what Billy is stating... with his" Magic Utopian Warrior" that he shall become once he's finally internalized the very last technique.  It is NOT a pipe dream but he would not need TIME to wonder  whether or not he should finish "Sword of Destruction" with "Raking Mace" or may finish with a "charging ram it would just oozzzzz out of his bones extemporaneously due to his myriad of tactics that Kenpo taught him.

As you suggest just studying the Categories..... well that is a different road that also has benefits..... each to his own... both have merits as I see it.

The trash collector has left....

:asian: :rofl:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2003)

Billy the "oooz man" Lear. Kind of catchy....
Anyways I understand what he is saying, and I know you are a stickler for the art as laid out by Ed Parker; however, as you have stated the same result can be acheived through other means. Billy and his freinds Clyde and Robert, make no bones about suggesting they have the corner of the market. I simply disagree.
You are right, of course, Mr. Parker drew from others to complete "his" art. But many a world class fighter can  do kenpo without ever having learned a single tech name.
Sean


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## Bill Lear (Oct 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Billy the "oooz man" Lear. Kind of catchy....
> Anyways I understand what he is saying, and I know you are a stickler for the art as laid out by Ed Parker; however, as you have stated the same result can be acheived through other means. Billy and his freinds Clyde and Robert, make no bones about suggesting they have the corner of the market. I simply disagree.
> You are right, of course, Mr. Parker drew from others to complete "his" art. But many a world class fighter can  do kenpo without ever having learned a single tech name.
> Sean *



I never said that doing someting else wouldn't work... I do that all the time. What I said was utilization of familiar movements is a more efficent way of dealing with "What Ifs" as they occour.

I don't claim to have a strangle hold on Kenpo either.

Sean,

You're way out in outter space brother...

And, don't call me "Ooze man" again! :shrug:


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## dcence (Oct 17, 2003)

> When you say this, are you referring to your opponents voluntary or involuntary reaction? I'm not saying wait for your opponent to react, I'm saying don't get ahead of what your strikes or manipulations are doing to your opponents body.



I am saying both.

What I am really saying is don't wait for any reaction, because the reaction you are waiting for may never come.  Proceed with whatever he gives you.  If the reaction you expect never comes, where are you?  What I am saying is take the reaction he gives you at that time.  Say you hit him in the groin and he hasn't bent forward yet like you expected.  Do you wait for him to bend?  What if  he never does because you missed or he has gonads of steel, or he had them taken out because of a freak football injury.  Regardless, if he hasn't moved, that is still a reaction you need to deal with, because he may not move like you expected him to.

You dictate the terms of engagement, don't wait to react to a reaction or you will always be the one that is a step behind.  Take control and manipulate the whole way through (if you can).

Derek


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## kenpo12 (Oct 17, 2003)

Mr. Ence,

  I think we are actually on the same page.  I'm saying attack what targets your opponent gives you and not to expect a certain reaction.  The point I was trying to make was not to speed through a written technique because you may move faster than your opponents body is reacting and just like you said he may react differently than expected forcing you to graft, formulate, etc.

Do you agree,

Matt


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## Seig (Oct 17, 2003)

Disrespect will not be tolerated in this Forum.  Keep it polite and professional.
Seig
-MT Moderator-


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## dcence (Oct 20, 2003)

> Mr. Ence,
> I think we are actually on the same page. I'm saying attack what targets your opponent gives you and not to expect a certain reaction. The point I was trying to make was not to speed through a written technique because you may move faster than your opponents body is reacting and just like you said he may react differently than expected forcing you to graft, formulate, etc.
> Do you agree,
> Matt



You (and anyone else) may call me Derek outside of a formal class setting.  And I do agree with you.  However, it is as much a problem that people move too slow as too fast.  You can always slow down if you want.  You can't always speed up if you are already moving as fast as you can.  

I think it is proper to expect a reaction; that is the  premise of the technique sequence.  But you can't rely on or wait for one.  If you don't get the reaction you expected you alter and adjust, don't stop and wait.

Sometimes I think it is  good thing to work a technique just as fast as you  can, plus a little more.  Other times you might focus on articulation, structural reinforcement.  You have to push the limits to grow.  Then when you are on a person, you can add the appropriate timing to fit the technique to the circumstance.
Derek


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *I don't dissagree but I'm not saying that the guy is out of range necessarily he may just be out of contact penetration range.  I'm also not saying you're standing around, I'm talking about timing, as in tenths of seconds, not hitting a guy and standing around, c'mon. *





> I can either wait for him to rush back in and then fire it, or I can shuffle after him with the heel palm. In doing so I'm not changing the technique but I'm monitoring and timing my strikes.



Ok, maybe I'm misreading this but at first glance, it looks like you are saying that in order for you to do the palm strike, you need to either wait for him to come back in, or follow after him.  All I'm saying is that you might not always be able to execute that "text book" technique.  If the guy moves away, who cares about the palm strike?

Mike


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## Bill Lear (Oct 21, 2003)

> *Originally posted by MJS *
> 
> _Ok, maybe I'm misreading this but at first glance, it looks like you are saying that in order for you to do the palm strike, you need to either wait for him to come back in, or follow after him.  All I'm saying is that you might not always be able to execute that "text book" technique.  If the guy moves away, who cares about the palm strike?_



I think Kenpo12 was offering that up as one of the various alternatives for that "what if" situation... adding a shuffle before the heel palm wouldn't kill the technique, neither would altering the weapon or target... I think either option would work, in the end it hinges on the practitioners preference. That's all.


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *I think Kenpo12 was offering that up as one of the various alternatives for that "what if" situation... adding a shuffle before the heel palm wouldn't kill the technique, neither would altering the weapon or target... I think either option would work, in the end it hinges on the practitioners preference. That's all. *



Bill- Thanks for the clarification!:asian:  Just having one of those days where I need to read and re read and re read before it sinks in! 

Mike


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## Bill Lear (Oct 21, 2003)

> *Originally posted by MJS *
> 
> _Bill- Thanks for the clarification!:asian:  Just having one of those days where I need to read and re read and re read before it sinks in! _



Not a problem.


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## kenpo3631 (Oct 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *I think Kenpo12 was offering that up as one of the various alternatives for that "what if" situation... adding a shuffle before the heel palm wouldn't kill the technique, neither would altering the weapon or target... I think either option would work, in the end it hinges on the practitioners preference. That's all. *




Shuffle as needed...:asian:


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