# How important is torque when punching.... why, when, how?



## Goldendragon7

just curious...


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## RCastillo

Everything comes form the hips for power. W/O that, you only using the limbs, and not enough power there. There is certainly another dimension, I think, when it comes to your position in terms of what you follow up with as well.:asian: 

I'm sure the Dragon will keep me after school for additional tutoring.....................


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## Touch Of Death

This is one of those cases where the distal guides the proximal. That is, your hand positioning before and after the strike is crucial to proper methods of execution.:asian: 
Sean


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## Ceicei

Torque increases power; rotation of the hips and of the wrist when punching contributes to that power.  Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends.  

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends.  - Ceicei
> *



Really? Are you sure?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> This is one of those cases where the distal guides the proximal. That is, your hand positioning before and after the strike is crucial to proper methods of execution.:asian: Sean
> *



How so?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Everything comes form the hips for power.
> *



Everything?



> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> W/O that, you only using the limbs, and not enough power there.
> *



Enough power for what?  Doesn't it depend on what you need?, ... and sometimes depending on and individuals build he may "HAVE" enough power for what he needs for a particular use .......



> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> There is certainly another dimension, I think, when it comes to your position in terms of what you follow up with as well.:asian:
> *



please explain in more detail ....


I'm sure the Dragon will keep me after school for additional tutoring ...............
 
[/B][/QUOTE] 

Not really, I still want you to have play time with your friends.


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## ob2c

'Torque- how important, why, when?'

Torque would be important in a major, or power strike. It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well. But for snaping, lead hand jabs it might not be a factor. Also, not for lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass. Another time it would not be important might be with finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets- say a back hammerfist to the groin.

Was that the kind of thing you had in mind?


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *How so? *


 Well if you use a thrust off the hip as an example you will find that this motion works best if your palm is facing up; also, you will notice that if your hand is on the opposite shoulder the motion is most fluid when you palm is facing toward you. Once you have established the proper hand position for all return motion, torque is ensured with a proper method of execution. A noticable change in hand position should occur at the apex of all your strikes. Torque within a strike should occur as you pass from one muscle grouping to another.
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> Well if you use a thrust off the hip as an example you will find that this motion works best if your palm is facing up;
> Sean
> *



You mean it won't work well if the palm is facing down?


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## pete

the hips direct the shoulders, the knees with the elbows, and finally the ankle and wrist... all the while the tailbone sinks down and the cervical vertebrae pulls up.   rotational force is the product of the whole body working in concert.


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## Ceicei

> *quote: Originally posted by Ceicei
> 
> Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends. - Ceicei*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Really? Are you sure?  *
Click to expand...


Thinking....  I need redefine my previous answer....
%think%

Well, a punch is a strike, but not every strike is a punch.  I suppose I should have asked you to clarify, what kind of punch do you mean with your original question?

Of course, whether a punch needs enough torque will depend on what stance.  Some stances will not need a hip or wrist rotation when executing a punch.  Do other principles come into play that may provide the necessary "power" to your punch, such as marriage of gravity, rebounding, etc.?

I guess what I am saying is, how can I answer your question without having more information of what you are asking and what answers you are fishing?

That said, there is some torque that happens with parts of the body, ranging from ankles, hips, back, shoulders, and wrists when doing certain kinds of punches.  But as you implied with your response to me, not all punches will need that much torque, if any, from certain parts of the body.  

The focus might be what makes some punches effective from certain stances?

- Ceicei


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## WhiteTiger

It seems we are talking about the "traditional" Reverse Punch.  In this case the advantages of torquing the body are 3 fold.

Torque: a force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion : also a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation.
By this definition we are adding force to our punch by "torqing" our body.

Velocity: The rate of change of position along a straight line with respect to time : the derivative of position with respect to time.  By moving our hip and shoulder in conjunction with our arm the velocity of the punch is increased by the additive effects of compound motion.

Rigidity: Stiff and unyielding.  By moving into a forward bow stance when delivering this punch we limit the effects of the opponents body pushing back against our punch, there by maximizing the force transferance to the target.

While each of these effects is relatively simple the application is timing critical.  At the instant of impact the torque, velocity, and rigidity must all be at their maximum effect.

As for me I begin to torque my hips when my punch is about half way to the target.  (This also follows the "Weapon First" theory).


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## WhiteTiger

When teaching I tell my students to imagine that they have no arm, and they are actually striking with their hip.  Then as a drill two of them stand close together with their hands behind them and practice torqing their hips into the other.  Once they have learned to snap their hips around, we then start working on timing of the punch in conjunction with the torquing movement.

This of course is the most obvious example and there are more subtle torqing movements in a variety of striking techniques, but this is the one we first learn to apply this princeple.


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## rmcrobertson

There's a nice explanation (of course) of basic punches in Ed Parker and Tom Gow, "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate: Volume 1, The Basics," p. 15. 

There, punches out of a horse stance are called, "corkscrew punches," and the rotation comes during the last portion of the punch's trajectory. Further noted is that a) when punching out of a horse stance and alternating hands, one of the problems is that the hand going out and the hand pulling in rotate differently, because, "the first will not rotate together because the returning arm will start to rotate immediately while the punching arm must wait until the eelbow has passed the side," and b) "when body motion accompanies a punch it is usually rotation of the waist."

I'd add two note: first, that in this book punches come AFTER stances and blocks and are discussed for the least space; second, that I'd argue for punches actually starting with the feet--for example, when punching out of a horse stance, the heels should go out slightly as the punch arrives.

It occurs to me, additionally, that the end section of Long 1 is a nice place to work on torque and punches...


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> Rotation has to happen at the start and continues through until the punch ends.
> *


And I said:
Really? Are you sure? 

You then responded to me with....


> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> You implied with your response to me, not all punches will need that much torque, if any, from certain parts of the body.
> *



LOL, now how did you get that from the above?  I never said anything about the "amount" of torque.  

You stated that "rotation "HAS" to happen at the "START" and continue through until the punch ends".  {that's more of what I was referring to} 

Why can't the punch start and the rotation begin at about 1/2 or 3/4 of the way thru the action (yes speed is "adjusted" or "regulated" due to the length of time modified) instead of {as you stated} "HAS" to happen from the start of the punch?

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *
> Torque would be important in a major, or power strike.
> *



Why not in minor strikes like rakes?  Why just "power strikes"?  Wouldn't torque be beneficial in these areas also?



> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *
> It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well.
> *



hmmmmmm Please explain further, I'm not sure I understand.



> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *
> Other times it would not be important might be with: snapping, lead hand jabs or lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass, finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets-say a back hammerfist  to the groin.
> *



Well, any strike could be useful torqued or not..... but it seems to me, that torque would enhance all strikes to some degree.... yes/no?

:asian:


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## Ceicei

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> 
> Really? Are you sure?
> 
> LOL, now how did you get that from the above?  I never said anything about the "amount" of torque.  *



Ok... I know you didn't mention anything about how much torque.  Your response meant to me that I might...  ahhh.... be "incorrect" with my reply to you.



> *
> You stated that "rotation "HAS" to happen at the "START" and continue through until the punch ends".  {that's more of what I was referring to}
> 
> Why can't the punch start and the rotation begin at about 1/2 or 3/4 of the way thru the action (yes speed is "adjusted" or "regulated" due to the length of time modified) instead of {as you stated} "HAS" to happen from the start of the punch?
> 
> *



Are you focusing on torque of wrists while punching?  Is that why you are asking whether its important?

Back to your inquiry of my choice of words, why "has to from the start"?

Torque starts... think about the physical mechanics.  Even if, depending on type of punch, that the wrist doesn't need to rotate, another part of the body does.  Let's say, an uppercut.  This has minimal, almost zero, wrist rotation with that kind of punch.  The rotation from the waist/hips and the shoulder provides much of that power.

Now, if you are referring to a reverse punch with a forward bow stance (or as my instructor likes to call it, a pivot punch), then where was the original position of that hand?  Was it at the hips? Was it next to the face?  Was it elsewhere as a check from a prior move?  To move from point A to point B generally requires some rotation.

As to WHEN the rotation starts would depend on WHERE the hand was and what stance.  I don't think we can have any hard and fast absolute that rotations/torque always start half-way or 3/4 of the way.  People argue we need to have the body moved closer (rotating from the waist or via the hips) to line up with the opponent before releasing the punch.  If you are counting the punch timeline from beginning with the hip and then once closer to the opponent, releasing the punch, then the answer is no.  According to that timeline, the punch rotation doesn't start at the beginning until the fist starts to take action.  If you are looking instead at the timeline of fist point A to fist point B, asking whether torque is important with that particular punch, then I will have to ask, what kind of punch?  Perhaps the torque has to start at the beginning with that kind, perhaps it doesn't have to with another kind. 

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _*
> There, punches out of a horse stance are called, "corkscrew punches," and the rotation comes during the last portion of the punch's trajectory. Further noted is that a) when punching out of a horse stance and alternating hands, one of the problems is that the hand going out and the hand pulling in rotate differently, because, "the first will not rotate together because the returning arm will start to rotate immediately while the punching arm must wait until the elbow has passed the side," and b) "when "body motion" accompanies a punch it is usually rotation of the waist."
> 
> It occurs to me, additionally, that the end section of Long 1 is a nice place to work on torque and punches... *



You make some good points with your observations!    I agree.   

Rotational force is a tool that can greatly enhance your blocking/striking effectiveness.... with Major or Minor movements.  Utilizing this tool actually should be recognized throughout Short Form 1, as well as Long Form 1, the end is of course good but, I feel so is the beginning, and middle as well. 



> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _*
> I'd add: that in this book punches come "AFTER" stances and blocks.
> *



Yes, Mr. Parker prioritized his basics into two categories.... to "teach" and to "apply".

The teaching order is"
Stances
Blocks
Parries
Punches
Strikes
Finger Techniques
Kicks
Foot Maneuvers

The "application" order is the same except you place foot maneuvers 2nd behind stances in importance.

:asian:


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## Ceicei

Perhaps your definition of rotation/torque is different than how I consider rotation/torque?

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> Ok... I know you didn't mention anything about how much torque.  Your response meant to me that I might...  ahhh.... be "incorrect" with my reply to you.
> *



Nooooo not incorrect, just perspective



> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> Are you focusing on torque of wrists while punching?  Is that why you are asking whether its important?
> *



Not especially the wrists, but possibly the arms, body, or any other part that could utilize torque.  You have hit on the fact that there are different parts of the body that "Can" be torqued.  

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> Perhaps your definition of rotation/torque is different than how I consider rotation/torque?
> - Ceicei *



ok .....  Torque is the result of Rotational force. 
1 : A force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft>;<a straight punch in the martial arts also follows this principle> also : a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation
2 : a turning or twisting force
:asian:
{Are we close?}


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## Ceicei

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *ok .....  Torque is the result of Rotational force.
> 1 : A force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft>;<a straight punch in the martial arts also follows this principle> also : a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation
> 2 : a turning or twisting force
> :asian:
> {Are we close?} *



As far as the dictionary goes, our definition is the same.

According to this thread, some say the rotation starts half way.  As far as I'm concerned, wherever a muscle is manipulating a bone somewhere in the body, there is a form of torque and/or rotation going on.

The question is not "how much is needed" but if "it is important".

To ask whether torque is important is almost akin to asking if it's important to breathe.

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *
> The question is not "how much is needed" but if "it is important".
> 
> To ask whether torque is important is almost akin to asking if it's important to breathe.- Ceicei
> *


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *You mean it won't work well if the palm is facing down?
> 
> *


 Not well, would be what I mean.
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Not well, would be what I mean.
> Sean *



I don't understand......... Why?  It would be (with the right hand)  clockwise rotation {just starting with the palm in or down} which would be the reverse of a traditional punch (as typically practiced from a horse stance starting with the palm up)?  Can't we torque in either direction depending upon point of origin with the same effect?


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## Rainman

How important is torque when punching.

Why- most movements have rotatation at one point or another anyways so the principed man will manipulate turns and twists for power augmentation, deception or whatnot.

When- Whenever moving ie walking, pivoting, snapping and even thrusting, something is rotating and that force should be capitalized on- otherwise the motion is wasted.

How- You mean how much- depends on the circumstance.  Hairpins or loops both are useful and practical.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I don't understand......... Why?  It would be (with the right hand)  clockwise rotation {just starting with the palm in or down} which would be the reverse of a traditional punch (as typically practiced from a horse stance starting with the palm up)?  Can't we torque in either direction depending upon point of origin with the same effect?
> 
> *


 you wouldn't thrust with your palm down. You could work a back nuckle off the hip from that position, I suppose. Of course no one is stopping you from teaching students punch from a horse with the palms down. This is America, after all. I won't try to prove over the martial Talk system how body mechanics work. 
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> I won't try to prove over the martial Talk system how body mechanics work.
> Sean
> *



LOL........... good thing.

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *LOL........... good thing.
> 
> :asian: *


GD7, well I played withthe idea a little and have found that if you start with your hands down your motion automaticly flows outward. Whats more is that you end up with the Ulnus bone(inside bone I get radial and ulna mixed up) striking the target. Palms up gives you the traditional thrust we have come to know and love. Palms down, then, would not acheive the desired affect.
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *GD7, well I played withthe idea a little and have found that if you start with your hands down your motion automaticly flows outward. Whats more is that you end up with the Ulnus bone(inside bone I get radial and ulna mixed up) striking the target. Palms up gives you the traditional thrust we have come to know and love. Palms down, then, would not acheive the desired affect.
> Sean *



Actually I was getting to the point that you "CAN" Punch forward, with the palm up {inverted punch or uppercut as in B1b} "OR" down {normal 2 knuckle punch} equally,  snapping or thrusting is no issue as these are methods of execution ..... it doesn't matter ... both are effective.  

Both examples can be found in the Technique Destructive Twins.  
:asian:


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## Nick Ellerton

Forms are a good indication as to how important torque is, and it is evident in Mr Parkers Long Form 1. As soon as you being this form you no how to get the best effective exercution for a punch. Opening up the hips and turning ur wrist as you drop into a forward bow is the best way to execute a kenpo punch with the rear hand. but as far as lead hand punching is concerned then its open season.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *
> Both examples can be found in the Technique Destructive Twins.
> :asian: *


 Oddly enough, I was never taught that one. I did read the description on MARTIALTALK.COM and remember not liking that move. Perhaps that is one of the reasons it was thrown out of the system. 
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> Oddly enough,  it was thrown out of the system. Sean
> *



Really......  by whom may I ask?


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Really......  by whom may I ask?
> 
> *


 I never asked that question. I just know it wasn't offered in the technique lists we were going off of. There is a list of others on the Kenponet that were also discontinued and I don't know whom discontinued them either. I'm sure someone over there can give you the low down.:asian:
Sean


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## Kenpo Yahoo

I find it strange that with all this talk about torque that no one has ventured outside the realm of the punching arm.  One example even isolated the arm movement from the rest of the body (punching from a horse).  This may be fine for white and yellow belts, but beyond this there should be a drastic expansion of this concept, particulary noting the summation of full body motion.  Also there was no mention of how much torque is necessary only that it is necessary.  So to use the previous example, when punching from a horse stance (hand- palm up in chambered position) how far does the hand rotate? Should it go all the way around to a palm down position?  Why or why not?

Just some thoughts


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> I never asked that question. I just know it wasn't offered in the technique lists we were going off of. There is a list of others on the Kenponet that were also discontinued and I don't know whom discontinued them either. :asian:
> Sean
> *



Did you drop Short and Long 3 as well?   

Since it is the very first technique of those forms, I find it interesting that "ANYONE" would drop them out of the system.

Who is your instructor again?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> I find it strange that with all this talk about torque that no one has ventured outside the realm of the punching arm.
> 
> Advanced students should have a drastic expansion of this concept [torque], particulary noting the summation of full body motion.
> 
> Also there was no mention of "how much" torque is necessary only that it is necessary.
> 
> Using the previous example, when punching from a horse stance (hand- palm up in chambered position) how far does the hand rotate?
> 
> Should it go all the way around to a palm down position?
> 
> Why or why not?
> 
> Just some thoughts *



Yes, you are correct...... but the discussion just didn't quite reach that level yet...... thanks............

Regulating, the timing of "when" & at what point (where) the torque starts has yet to be explored totally.

"Body Rotation" is of course a fundamental "base" for the arms and legs.....just as inquiry as to what "measure of degree" {Analytical Study of Motion Book V} such as 45 degrees, 90 degrees 180 degree, and 270 degree punches that we do for various reasons in different scenarios...

thanks for the prompt...... lets see where it goes......

:asian:


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## ob2c

> Originally posted by _ob2c_ & *Goldendragon7*
> _Torque would be important in a major, or power strike. _
> *Why not in minor strikes like rakes?  Why just "power strikes"?  Wouldn't torque be beneficial in these areas also?*


I was thinking in terms ofwhole body torque and relative importance. It could be siad that torque is inherent in every move we make at some level, so any discussion of torque would have to be in this context. A better way to state it would be that torque is 'more important' in a power strike.



> _It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well._ *hmmmmmm Please explain further, I'm not sure I understand.*


 We don't normally face our opponent squarely. Our default stance is the neutral bow, which puts us at 45', and on one side our natural weapons are trailing. This requires either a positional or a stance change to bring those weapons effectively into play. *Torquing* into a forward bow (or other stance) is one way to accomplish this.




> _Other times it would not be important might be with: snapping, lead hand jabs or lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass, finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets-say a back hammerfist to the groin._
> *Well, any strike could be useful torqued or not..... but it seems to me, that torque would enhance all strikes to some degree.... yes/no?*


 Exactly. Its importance is a matter of degrees, at least as I see it. With a finger technique to the eyes, torque may only be important to position the strike. Other times, other power principles would be more important, though torque may be there and is still an important factor. An example  would be the downward elbow strike at the end of Crossing Talon. It has a lot of torque, but marriage of gravity is the major power principle in the move. In a power punch with the trailing hand it would be important both for position and reach, and for power generation. In the latter case, torque is brought into play at all levels: the rear leg rotates into position, hips turn squarely to the front, torso follows with hips to square up, arm extends and torques. Torque brings everything into harmoniouse structural and positional allignment with compounding speed and power. 

Hope that is a little clearer.


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## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Did you drop Short and Long 3 as well?
> 
> Since it is the very first technique of those forms, I find it interesting that "ANYONE" would drop them out of the system.
> 
> Who is your instructor again?
> 
> *



We dropped short and long 3 but we still do destructive twins, it's just different than what's in the forms.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Did you drop Short and Long 3 as well?
> 
> Since it is the very first technique of those forms, I find it interesting that "ANYONE" would drop them out of the system.
> 
> Who is your instructor again?
> 
> *


 oops I got mixed up I was refering to that yellow belt tech against a bearhug. And we didn't exaclty drop long three, but short three is the dominant form of the two. We wouldn't teach destructive twins starting with you hands at your sides either so I guess we threw out the original version for our modified version (as with most techs).
Sean


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## MisterMike

I think body rotation is the only "torque" that can add power to a punch.

As for the isolated torque in the arm, well, all that seems to do is line up the fist with the target, and possibly align the muscles and bones of the arm to withstand harder impact.

Just my 50,000 foot view of it though. I know the diehard Parker guys will look a bit deeper.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think body rotation is the only "torque" that can add power to a punch.
> 
> As for the isolated torque in the arm, well, all that seems to do is line up the fist with the target, and possibly align the muscles and bones of the arm to withstand harder impact.
> 
> Just my 50,000 foot view of it though. I know the diehard Parker guys will look a bit deeper. *



Interesting- torque (depending on what the exact movement is) is only one of the principles working.  Combine torque with inertia, gravitational marriage, body momentum, directional harmony, a slap ck, a pam, back up mass and a specific target you now are beginning to do American Kenpo.   Torque always works with something else so it is not a primary power enhancer, nothing is unless you start to look at conditioned responses and on up the line.  Something is responsible for strarting movement and without movement none of these principles reach the external.  Many of these principles are working daily internally and for me that is where true power comes from.

Body rotation- That's pretty good.  Centrifugal force (outside of a circle) and centripital force (inside of a circle) can be triggered from pivoting (nuetral to horse) and unwinding from a twist stance.  These are all forms of rotational force.  Look for the trigger and work your way down you will find all sorts of answers.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I think body rotation is the only "torque" that can add power to a punch.
> 
> As for the isolated torque in the arm, well, all that seems to do is line up the fist with the target, and possibly align the muscles and bones of the arm to withstand harder impact.
> 
> Just my 50,000 foot view of it though. I know the diehard Parker guys will look a bit deeper. *


possibly


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## rmcrobertson

Uh...neither Short nor Long 3 starts with hands at sides, unless of course you consider the salutation to be the beginning of the form. (And like dude, when does, like a form really, "begin," eh?) Both forms go into Destructive Twins from a meditating horse stance, as the hands go down and in....


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _*
> Uh...Both Short & Long 3 start by going into Destructive Twins from a meditating horse stance, as the hands go down and in.... *



:xtrmshock
:rtfm:


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## Chronuss

> Originally posted by Ceicei
> *To ask whether torque is important is almost akin to asking if it's important to breathe. *



and I deem breathing to be a pretty important task.


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## Stick Dummy

GD-7,

  I think from my VERY limited exposure to Kenpo that it is very important t apply torque to all techs.

A good instructor will teach you the 5 W's (Who, What, When, etc etc) of the subject once you are ready to learn it.:asian: 

 Torque is critical from the FMA/IMA perspective and I'm sure a similar path is being followed to enlightenment in advanced Kenpo levels.........


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *:xtrmshock
> :rtfm: *


 I was talking about using the tech outside the context of short three, but even from a meditating horse , both hands torque.:asian:  Funny side note is that I was talking to an old time Kenpoist freind of mine today on the phone, and told him I mixed up the words destructive and aggressive twins and he started describing alternating maces. I said he just described alternating maces and he went," oh yeah I guess I did " He promissed to get back to me on aggressive twins, but I suspect he hadn't learned it either. 
Sean


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