# Watered Down Martial Arts



## Champ-Pain (Jun 7, 2011)

I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:

Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH! 

Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport? 

I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life? 

Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?


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## tinker1 (Jun 7, 2011)

I agree completely.  Olympic TKD is a joke... one kick, and one kick only in all the matches I've watched.  Round kick, ... that's about it.  Oh, I did see an axe kick one or two times.

Basically if it isn't going to give them a point in the match, they don't practice it.

Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common attack they will face in real life.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 7, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> I agree completely. Olympic TKD is a joke... one kick, and one kick only in all the matches I've watched. Round kick, ... that's about it. Oh, I did see an axe kick one or two times.
> 
> Basically if it isn't going to give them a point in the match, they don't practice it.
> 
> Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common attack they will face in real life.


 I know, it's absolutely ridiculous. WTF? Is it still considered a form of M/A by anyone other than TKD practioners? Like I said before - traditional TKD was used in the Korean armed forces and was considered to be effective, but this new "Olympic TKD" - resembles a dance more than a M/A style.


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## Carol (Jun 7, 2011)

Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.

people train for different reasons.  People train for competition, for fun, for fitness, for a family exercise...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train.  I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.

Does a 4 year old have the same needs as a 31 year old?   Does a bullied child have the same needs as the gifted athlete who just loves to compete?  Does the woman trying to escape her abusive boyfriend have the same need as the parent who wants to have fun with their kids?  Does the guy trying to put himself through school by driving a cab in the city have the same needs as the teen hoping that their MA background will show prospective colleges how well-rounded they are?

I happen to think there is room in Martial Arts for all of these people....but I'm not sure if the common approach of a homogenized one-size-fits-all program is the best way to teach everyone.


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## tinker1 (Jun 7, 2011)

Carol said:


> Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.
> 
> people train for different reasons.  People train for competition, for fun, for fitness, for a family exercise...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train.  I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.
> 
> ...



Good points, very well made.

At what point do we loose our soul though?

When the martial art looses it's validity for the street, when it fails to build character and strength of resolve, when it fails to build physical and mental toughness... does it remain a martial art at all?

Sure, yes, there is room for every one to find a niche I suppose, but not at the expense of loosing the soul of the art.

Some things should be hard though.  Some things should take all you have to attain.  Some things should force you out of your comfort zone, push your boundaries, and yes, make you afraid.  We've all heard the story of how to reach your hearts desire you must be willing to reach through a wall of flame.  Martial Arts should be that way.

Some things should not be for everyone.  For those unwilling to reach through that wall of flame, I suggest maybe they should try baseball.. or golf.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 8, 2011)

In defence of oympic tkd (as has been pointed out repeatedly in the tkd section recently), MOST tkd schools do teach the unwatered down stuff and have separate classes for those wishing to persue the olympic style sparring. I train non olympic style tkd but the olympic style schools in my area teach 'normal tkd' as the weekly class and then run 'sport tkd'  training on a saturday morning and thursday night just for those interested in competing in olympic style events. You can get to black belt in these clubs without ever attending one of the designated sport tkd sessions. For successful or up and coming athletes there are specialty clubs where they can train sport tkd exclusively. The idea that you can walk into any tkd dojang and everyone is bouncing around doing flashy kicks with their hands by their sides is a fallacy (at least where I live and from what Ive read from instructors in the tkd section its the same over there). As long as the 'watered down' version is an 'option only', then I have no problem with it. And this comes from a tkdist who hates olympic sparring.


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## StagTown (Jun 8, 2011)

> Oh, and don't forget that a punch to the face is illegal in Olympic  TKD... so they don't practice defending against what is the most common  attack they will face in real life.



Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 8, 2011)

StagTown said:


> Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!


Exactly. Its full contact with both punches and kicks and knockouts. If thats not a MA then a lot of other MA's would also no longer be considered martial arts either. I did form of karate as a kid and it was no contact sparring so it would also be considered not to be an MA. And make no mistake, those olympic guys kick a lot harder and a lot faster than you'd think. I dont think they'd have too much problems looking after themself on the street if required.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 8, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


 

Lets keep in mind that no matter how "watered Down" the techniques may be...lets not dismiss they physical condition that these martial artists have to get in, in order to compete at the Olympic Level.  It takes a whole lot of hard work, blood, sweat and tears 

For that I give them all the respect one could muster for a fellow Martial Artist.

Now would I train in self defense that way...of course not...but I am quite sure that these Olympic Athletes can and will defend themselves with it, because thats what they train!


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 8, 2011)

2 Points I'd like to make in reponse to some possible misunderstanding.

1) I don't and never had the intent of disrespecting any athlete of any sport - only the sport itself is the object of my criticism and only because of the watering down effect. I completely understand how hard they train and how much discipline and sacrafice they put forward, in order to make it to the upper level, the "Olympics". I've never questioned that fact.

2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 8, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?


 
Its called a "Mcdojo"

The thing is...if they are touting that they are a traditional Martial Arts school...then yeah, I get exactly what your saying.

But if they straight out say its a "fitness class" then by all means...they can enjoy that..I think thats what the true selling point is..especially in places like fitness centers and gyms...people don't go to learn kata or technique, they go to get thin and fit.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 8, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Its called a "Mcdojo"
> 
> The thing is...if they are touting that they are a traditional Martial Arts school...then yeah, I get exactly what your saying.
> 
> But if they straight out say its a "fitness class" then by all means...they can enjoy that..I think thats what the true selling point is..especially in places like fitness centers and gyms...people don't go to learn kata or technique, they go to get thin and fit.


 ATA is an organization with many individual locations all over the area. Total M/A is a different entity from Bally, but rents space from them and teach Olympic TKD only, nothing to do with fitness workouts, in either case. They advertise themselves as a M/A school - they should teach something that resembles M/A IMHO.


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## frank raud (Jun 8, 2011)

StagTown said:


> Its a ruleset for a sport that as a martial arts history! olympic TKD as nothing to do with street defence and if where talking watered down combat arts you can add boxing to the list!


 Why would you consider boxing watered down?


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## JohnEdward (Jun 8, 2011)

When anything becomes a sport it becomes watered down. Gymnastics is a prime example, along with TDK and Judo. Many traditional Japanese martial arts abhor their arts becoming sport, and there is allot of argument for the pros and cons.  It is considered a fate worse than death. Yet, some arts should be a sport, like BJJ, Judo, and Muay Thai, also. These were intended to be sports and I think that is the rub.  In terms of Judo, yes the 1964 Olympics did water down Judo, which was intend to be a more intensive and combative sport like MMA. Maybe, it is time now for the old Judo to come back?


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 8, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> ATA is an organization with many individual locations all over the area. Total M/A is a different entity from Bally, but rents space from them and teach Olympic TKD only, nothing to do with fitness workouts, in either case. They advertise themselves as a M/A school - they should teach something that resembles M/A IMHO.


 

Understood and Agreed...it would be different if they were saying they focus on fitness alone...I mean I teach traditional Karate classes...but I also offer a cardio kickboxing class as well.. so :idunno:


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## Blade96 (Jun 8, 2011)

i dont care if they want to water something down in order to practice it as a sport. I have no problem with it. 

Actually, i do think, Ya take something intended to kill somebody, you have to water it down to do it as a sport instead. Otherwise you can, you know, kill somebody. 

I don't mind at all if people want to do it as a sport instead of training to fight and kill.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 8, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Why would you consider boxing watered down?


 

I am no expert on much of anything, much less on boxing. But wasn't the original olympic boxing and wrestling often fought to the death; and that acceptable?  I don't think they used gloves either.


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## tinker1 (Jun 8, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> i dont care if they want to water something down in order to practice it as a sport. I have no problem with it.
> 
> Actually, i do think, Ya take something intended to kill somebody, you have to water it down to do it as a sport instead. Otherwise you can, you know, kill somebody.
> 
> I don't mind at all if people want to do it as a sport instead of training to fight and kill.



Personally I would call that a "martial SPORT" though, rather than a "martial ART".  I believe there has to be some distinction between the two - if that is clearly done, then I don't have an issue with it.

The issue for me is that these martial sports instructors tell their students that they are learning an art.  To me, this is like telling baseball players that they are learning Escrima and should be able to defend themselves using a bat.  While these players are in good shape (with baseball that may be debatable), and their familiarity with a bat may help them should they ever are in a self defense situation, I would not call what they are doing an art.

ART has an aesthetic and a certain tradition, I don't find that in sport.  

For me, this debate goes beyond viability of self defense and speaks more to the mind set and training focus of the teaching / learning process.


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## Blade96 (Jun 8, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> Personally I would call that a "martial SPORT" though, rather than a "martial ART".  I believe there has to be some distinction between the two - if that is clearly done, then I don't have an issue with it.
> 
> The issue for me is that these martial sports instructors tell their students that they are learning an art.  To me, this is like telling baseball players that they are learning Escrima and should be able to defend themselves using a bat.  While these players are in good shape (with baseball that may be debatable), and their familiarity with a bat may help them should they ever are in a self defense situation, I would not call what they are doing an art.
> 
> ...



Sport is a type of art.

But yeah I'd like a distinction between the kind done for sport and the type of martial arts learned as its true form.


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## Grenadier (Jun 8, 2011)

The more important thing here, is whether or not a particular school is giving its students a good perceived value.  

Some people are looking to compete at the Olympic level for Tae Kwon Do.  If that's what they want, and if a particular school is offering to train them specifically for that type of competition, then more power to that school.  They're simply doing what they want to do, and that it serves their students' interests.  

The way I see it, the above practitioners of such methods are in their own world, and as long as they stay in their own world, it's none of my business to tell them how compete.  

However, if they step into, say, a USA-NKF style competition, then they're going to find that they're sorely lacking in terms of having the right tools.  In those cases, I'm not going to feel badly about criticizing them for exposing their entire backsides.


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## RRepster (Jun 8, 2011)

As a TKD practitioner I agree with the assessment of the art overwhelming being practiced for sport. If the club has days where real self-defense is practiced then it's fine but all too often the only sparring style practiced is sport competition or worse - testing style no contact, long range for demo purposes.


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## StagTown (Jun 9, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Why would you consider boxing watered down?



many reasons! headguards, scoreing part of gloves clearly marked, short fight period.......these types of things are imposed when a sport gains olympic status as someones already mentioned fighting to the death is no longer encouraged.

bests stagtown


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jun 9, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am no expert on much of anything, much less on boxing. But wasn't the original olympic boxing and wrestling often fought to the death; and that acceptable?  I don't think they used gloves either.



Not exactly. Pankration was really the nastier one of the combat sports back then, injuries and fatalities were common enough, the boxing was pretty brutal but not quite as bad, and the wrestling was comparatively "safe"
In terms of hand protection they mainly wore wraps around their hands.

In terms of sports such as Judo/Boxing being watered down. They may not practice "lethal" techniques, but the techniques they do practice are ones they've pressure tested and performed against resisting opponents on a regular basis. They have an effective bag of tricks that they can perform reliably. Yes the settings and circumstances they might have to perform them under are different, but I'd be wary of underestimating their abilities.


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## frank raud (Jun 9, 2011)

StagTown said:


> many reasons! headguards, scoreing part of gloves clearly marked, short fight period.......these types of things are imposed when a sport gains olympic status as someones already mentioned fighting to the death is no longer encouraged.
> 
> bests stagtown


 You are describing amateur rules boxing. Headguards are not allowed in professional boxing, althought they are used in sparring. When has fighting to the death ever been encouraged in boxing?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!


I'm not going to comment on judo, as I do not practice it, but how do you support your statement about taekwondo?  

And since when was Olympic taekwondo a style?  Last I checked, it isn't.  There are taekwondo tournaments that are held under World Taekwondo Federation rules.  The Olympics happen to be one of those tournaments.  The rules aren't special for the Olympics.  In order to compete at that level, a pariticpant has to hold a first dan in Kukkiwon taekwondo, which is much more than just sparring under WTF rules.  I have practiced taekwondo since the seventies and must disagree with your assessment.  



JudoChampion said:


> Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill others - just to make it an Olympic sport?


Neither taekwondo nor judo were originally founded to be used in war.  Neither was the Shotokan that strongly influenced taekwondo.  If you think that Judo and taekwondo were founded as 'war' arts, then you are unfamiliar with the origins of either art. 

Also, you are not using the term 'watered down' correctly.  Watering something down means adding water to it to stretch it further, not taking elements away. 

Adding weapons to taekwondo is an example of 'watering down' as you are adding something that has no intrinsic value to the art in, ususally in order to stretch the student's enrollement further.  

Adding boxing to judo (no idea if anyone is doing this) is watering down: you are adding something to it to stretch the people who might find it appealing or to stretch it to include material that Kano never intended.

As to whether or not that is good or bad is another story. 

Removal of techniques is is correctly termed streamlining, simplifying or truncating.



JudoChampion said:


> I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that actually works in real life?
> 
> Perhaps they should do away with the Olympic games instead. What do you think?


And what was the original motive of 'martial arts training?'  And is your question even relevant?  Judo and taekwondo are not martial arts if you use the term correctly.  Neither one was developed for war.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> Personally I would call that a "martial SPORT" though, rather than a "martial ART". I believe there has to be some distinction between the two - if that is clearly done, then I don't have an issue with it.
> 
> The issue for me is that these martial sports instructors tell their students that they are learning an art. To me, this is like telling baseball players that they are learning Escrima and should be able to defend themselves using a bat. While these players are in good shape (with baseball that may be debatable), and their familiarity with a bat may help them should they ever are in a self defense situation, I would not call what they are doing an art.
> 
> ...


The problem with your statement is that the term, Martial Arts, has nothing to do with aesthetics.  It means war sciences or war skills.  It has nothing to do with the fine arts.

And the vast majority of people practicing what is called a martial art are practicing something that is either not martial or not martial any longer.  Boxing has always been a sport, though the rule set has changed over the course of over a century.  

Most 'martial arts' that are popularly practiced were not developed for use on the battlefield.  

Those that were are no longer applicable on the battlefield.  I practice and teach the "martial" use of the sword.  But without a time machine or the disappearance of modern weaponry or some kind of zombie uprising, you won't see swords used in warfare again, probably ever.  

Daniel


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## frank raud (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


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## tinker1 (Jun 9, 2011)

StagTown said:


> > Originally Posted by *frank raud*
> >
> >
> > _Why would you consider boxing watered down?_
> ...



An interesting read... http://www.hellenism.com/olympics/boxing.htm


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## frank raud (Jun 9, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> An interesting read... http://www.hellenism.com/olympics/boxing.htm


 
From the article  Ancient boxing differed in many ways from modern boxing.  

That may have something to do with the many centuries between the boxing of Ancient Greece and the modern boxing era. Modern boxing developed from fencing, and has little relationship to the boxing of Ancient Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 9, 2011)

Personally I feel martial arts being watered down is a tragedy. Judo was created as a sport from Ju Jutsu however it was still a very brutal art. I am saddened to hear that some of the chokes and throws have been eliminated from judo for the olympics.

More personal to me is the push for on sport karate (whats being called traditional) through the groups trying to get karate in the olympics. They are trying to drastically systemize karatedo which even today in Okinawa it is not. The Okinawan's still teach people to their strengths for the most part and it is acceptable if someone doing kata looks a little different than someone else. The emphasis is still in the bunkai not on the show. At least thats what I saw when I was there last year. As a long time karate practioner (approaching 30 years) it is my believe that the tradition should be what it was created for self-preservation not sport. 

Mind you I enjoy getting involved in tournaments and such but I believe the focus for many has gone to the trophy and not bettering oneself as a whole through the training.

As far as a Olympic TKD honestly I think it looks ridiculous and is not even recognizable to traditional TKD which I have a great respect for when it is taught correctly.

Just my .02


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## tinker1 (Jun 9, 2011)

Because sport is a subset of art, I believe it's inevitable that what is done in sport is "watered down" or a limited version of the art.

Consider - if we entered tournaments with NO rules whatsoever, and used our art to attempt to hurt, maim, or kill our opponent..  First of all people would die... and the rest would go to jail.  Second, the tournament probably wouldn't be much fun.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 9, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> 1) Neither taekwondo nor judo were originally founded to be used in war.
> 
> 2) you are not using the term 'watered down' correctly. Watering something down means adding water to it to stretch it further, not taking elements away.
> 
> ...


 
1) That may be your opinion but - TKD is what they teach the soldiers in the Korean armed forces (soldiers fight wars)... and Judo is what they teach the police force in Japan - no guns there. Judo came out of JuJutsu, which was used in war... by Ninja and Samurai, alike. 

2) Adding water to lemons, makes lemon-ade. Not what I'm talking about. Perhaps I made the wrong analogy. TKD and JUDO have been robbed of very many good techniques that are legit and realistic, and function well in competition as well as in a real street fight... some of which are still being used in other styles, like Wrestling, Sambo and BJJ.

3) It's called San-Chou. Cung Le is the man in this particular sport-M/A style. He beat Frank Shamrock pretty bad in their match a few years ago.

4) For WAR!!!


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


 
Personally, I'm not a fan it it but....

Look at kata at a tournament.  Notice how they usually have seperate divisions, one for the more trad. oriented kata, and another for the gymnastic routines.  OTOH, and no, before someone gets upset, claiming I'm bashing MMA, I'm not, but even things that're done in MMA, have the potential to be modified from how they could be done on the street.  

Perhaps what bothers me more, is to see how much some arts have watered down, to cater to the needs of the majority.  I say the majority, because IMO, its those people that tend to dictate, depending on the school owner, on whether or not they join school A or B.  Let me clarify.  If a school is too hardcore, a parent may not want to enroll their kid because they may get hurt, or not get their BB in 1yr, when the kid is 6.  A more hardcore, traditional school, while some methods may be toned down, still holds the traditional aspects to it.


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Neither taekwondo nor judo were originally founded to be used in war. Neither was the Shotokan that strongly influenced taekwondo. If you think that Judo and taekwondo were founded as 'war' arts, then you are unfamiliar with the origins of either art.


 
I know them only from what I've read.  So if I'm reading you right here, TKD was originally designed to be sport and nothing more?



> Also, you are not using the term 'watered down' correctly. Watering something down means adding water to it to stretch it further, not taking elements away.


 
I disagree slightly.  Certain elements could be removed altogether due to them not being popular today, vs. back in the day.  But as you said here



> Adding weapons to taekwondo is an example of 'watering down' as you are adding something that has no intrinsic value to the art in, ususally in order to stretch the student's enrollement further.


 
yes, other things, not really relavent to the art, could be added, thus watering them down.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) That may be your opinion but - TKD is what they teach the soldiers in the Korean armed forces (soldiers fight wars)


Yes, soldiers fight wars. And when TKD was developed, soldiers fought wars *with guns*. Taekwondo was not ever a military art. Just because soldiers train in it does not mean that they are doing so with the intent of using it in combat. American soldiers train in BJJ, primarily to keep their competitive edge up. Nobody expects them to go out and grapple on the battlefield. 

I am very familiar with the history of taekwondo. Do not delude yourself into believing that it is anything resembling a war art. It is not. It is a civilian fighting system with roots in Shotokan, which was gendai budo employed in Japanese schools. It never was a war art.  Opinion never was a part of it.



JudoChampion said:


> ... and Judo is what they teach the police force in Japan - no guns there. Judo came out of JuJutsu, which was used in war... by Ninja and Samurai, alike.


Japanese police also practice kendo. However, police are not at war. They are trying to restrain people. 

As far as jujustsu, unarmed combat was a very last resort. The primary implements of war, and the primary war arts, all involved weapons. By the time Kano invented judo, Japan had already transitioned to a modern military. Also, saying "jujutsu was used in war" is misleading. Not all jujutsu ryu were used in war. I'm not familiar with what ryu Kano was trained in, but regardless, the judo that he invented was not a military art. 



JudoChampion said:


> 2) *Adding water to lemons, makes lemon-ade.* Not what I'm talking about. Perhaps I made the wrong analogy. TKD and JUDO have been robbed of very many good techniques that are legit and realistic, and function well in competition as well as in a real street fight... some of which are still being used in other styles, like Wrestling, Sambo and BJJ.


Adding water to soup or wine is watering it down. Not familiar with sambo (not the MA anyway), but wrestling and BJJ are not war arts. Never have been.



JudoChampion said:


> 3) It's called San-Chou. Cung Le is the man in this particular sport-M/A style. He beat Frank Shamrock pretty bad in their match a few years ago.


I am familiar with Cung Le. Great fighter. I think he broke Shamrock's arm if I recall.



JudoChampion said:


> 4) For WAR!!!


By modern standards, most of the arts discussed on this board are not martial. Many never were. The guy in the Air Force learning to fly a plane and bomb the crap out of a city is learning a martial art. The guy in the dojo learning judo is learning a fight sport. The guy in the dojo learning kenjutsu is learning to keep ancient traditions alive and to preserve them for future generations. The judoka may be able twist you into a pretzel and break you and the kenshi may be able to cut you to ribbons, but neither is learning a skill that has application in war.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

MJS said:


> I know them only from what I've read. So if I'm reading you right here, TKD was originally designed to be sport and nothing more?


It is a civilian fighting system. Civilian meaning that it was developed primarily by people outside of the military and it was not developed fur use during any war. The current style of sparring came about in the late sixties or early seventies and if I remember correctly, it was developed by the Jidokwan.  Prior to that, and even after that, most taekwondoin fought in karate tournaments under whatever rules they had.



MJS said:


> I disagree slightly. Certain elements could be removed altogether due to them not being popular today, vs. back in the day. But as you said here
> 
> yes, other things, not really relavent to the art, could be added, thus watering them down.


Don't get me wrong; I'm all for enriching the curriculum. Adding a well developed weapons curriculum to an unarmed art is fine by me, but as you said, it is not relevant to the art. 

Really, when I think of watering down a TKD curriculum, I think of things like Action flex weapons and American Gladiator looking sparring between twelve year olds.

If a school adds weapon forms but never does any drills or any sort of applications, then that is watering down the curriculum as well.

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 9, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> 1) American soldiers train in BJJ, primarily to keep their competitive edge up. Nobody expects them to go out and grapple on the battlefield.
> 
> 2) Japanese police also practice kendo. However, police are not at war. They are trying to restrain people.
> 
> ...


 
1) I would, if the bullets run out.

2) Trying to restrain people may be considered a form of war... or at the very least, a fight. Fighting is war and visa versa.

3) Saying it wasn't is misleading.

4) No, not all - but many were.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) I would, if the bullets run out.


Better hope everyone else runs out too and that they don't have knives.



JudoChampion said:


> 2) Trying to restrain people may be considered a form of war... or at the very least, a fight. Fighting is war and visa versa.


Not unless your speaking coloquially.  If you wish to use words differently than the rest of us do, that is your business.    



JudoChampion said:


> 3) Saying it wasn't is misleading.


Except that I didn't say that.



JudoChampion said:


> 4) No, not all - but many were.


Yes, many were.  Were being the key part.  What ryu did Kano's judo come out of?

Look, you opened this up bashing two popular arts.  Your post indicates that you really don't know enough about taekwondo or about what differentiates gendai budo from koryu arts to make the statements that you made with regard to blaming the Olympics.

Other arts have been either simplified or have had techniques removed for safety reasons.  Kendo once had horizontal blows to the head and a choke using the do.  Those were removed after WWII for safety issue.  

Queensbury rules removed a lot from boxing as well.

I don't know why whatever was removed from judo was removed, but modern taekwondo still contains all the cool eye gouges, spear hands, arch hands, knee and elbow strikes, and more material than I have the time to enumerate.  And I am speaking of Kukkiwon taekwondo.  ITF/Chang Hon taekwon-do never made it into the Olympics and it sparring looks markedly different from WTF, primarilly due to a larger quanitity of hand techniques allowed.  

Now, if you want to argue that some, many, or even most, taekwondo schools are truncating the Kukkiwon curriculum (I would say some and would chalk them up to being lousy schools), then that is a different discussion.

Daniel


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## tinker1 (Jun 9, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Daniel Sullivan*
> 
> 
> _
> ...



My Grandfather fought in the trenches in Europe during WW 1.

My Father engaged in quite a lot of hand to hand combat when operating behind enemy lines in China during WW 2.

Just sayin..


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 9, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your post indicates that you really don't know enough about taekwondo.
> 
> Daniel


 Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.

BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 9, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> My Grandfather fought in the trenches in Europe during WW 1.
> 
> My Father engaged in quite a lot of hand to hand combat when operating behind enemy lines in China during WW 2.
> 
> Just sayin..


 So did a few of my BEST friends - in Vietnam and elsewhere... My cousin did as well in ********. I can't say - it was a covert operation.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.
> 
> BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.



Members who know exactly as much about TaeKwonDo as you do. That is to say, absolutely nothing. I have decent Judo, IMO, and my first line of defense if I have to use it is the completely standard elbow across the nose that every WTF school, ever, teaches.

Maybe if you'd learn a bit about a style before bashing it, especially coming from a _sport _Judo background, I wouldn't be laughing behind my computer screen right now. What exactly is more useful about lying on one's stomach and waiting for the ref to call matte? 

I say this as someone who trains both and believe it or not really loves Judo. As a matter of fact, my last Judo shiai was 2 weeks ago.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.


And what do you know?  

Apparently, not the technique set taught.  You haven't trained in it, so your information certainly isn't first hand.  So, your statement about TKD being ineffective and useless in self defense is also empty; you don't know what the art involves or what is taught, the teaching pedagogy or reasons for the rule set seen in the Olympics.



JudoChampion said:


> BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.


Been here a lot longer than you and have read them many times.  Again, it isn't about opinion.  Either you deal with facts or you don't.  If this is how are supporting your points, you are not dealing with facts.

I'm not a huge fan of WTF sparring for various reasons, but I can tell you that the art is not laughable in its current form.  A form that really hasn't changed since at least the seventies.  I will also say that WTF tournament rules do have their merits; it just isn't my cup of tea.

The biggest change to TKD is not in the art itself, but the in the demographic; lots more kids and lots more people who are less interested in fighting and just want a good workout in cool pajamas.  And this is hardly limited to TKD.  Pretty common in most popular systems.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 9, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> My Grandfather fought in the trenches in Europe during WW 1.
> 
> My Father engaged in quite a lot of hand to hand combat when operating behind enemy lines in China during WW 2.
> 
> Just sayin..


And my thanks to your father and grandfather!

However, given that I never made a case for zero h2h in war, your statement really doesn't address my comments.  

Nor does it make taekwondo or judo war arts or change the fact that the primary weapon of the soldier is the rifle.  

H2h has been the last resort for centuries, as weapons of some kind have always been the first choice.  The fact that some h2h still can happen does not change that.  And what h2h soldiers learn is not taekwondo or judo.  It is, I suspect primarily gross motor skill based and is designed to be usable while wearing the gear that a modern soldier wears.

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 9, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Maybe not - but what I do know, tells me that it's ineffective and useless in a self defense situation... or any other kind of fight - it's laughable in it's current form.
> 
> BTW - If you read some of the other member's opinions - many agree with me, on this.


That is a huge call to make, you obviously know very little about tkd. I train tkd with many 4th, 5th and 6th dans who are leo's, bouncers etc and Im pretty sure if tkd was "ineffective" they wouldnt have stuck around for the last 25 years learning it. I think they would have figured out by now it doesnt work. After seeing someone at a night club "defending themself" by rolling on the floor doing bjj while 6 of his attackers mates booted him in the head there would be a strong argument to say bjj is ineffective. Or watching my mate who is a boxer get floored at a pub because he had his legs kicked out from under him, could lead me to say boxing is ineffective. I will never say an art is ineffective, its just to big a call to make.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Trying to restrain people may be considered a form of war... or at the very least, a fight. Fighting is war and visa versa.



I'm going to go ahead and guess that you've never been in a war in your life. Fighting is not war. War is not fighting. Having participated in both, I can tell you with certainty that they are not the same thing.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 10, 2011)

One thing that sticks in my mind about this conversation is the casual tossing about of the term "water down". By dictionary definition, this term means that its force or effectiveness has been reduced. 


What seems to be overlooked is that something's effectiveness depends upon that which it trying to affect. If the intended goal id competition, then getting rid of techniques that do not score points _increases_ its effectiveness, according to their stated goal. To include techniques that have no use in sport, in this context,  "water down" the sport.


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## StagTown (Jun 10, 2011)

frank raud said:


> You are describing amateur rules boxing. Headguards are not allowed in professional boxing, althought they are used in sparring. When has fighting to the death ever been encouraged in boxing?



sorry frank but youve mistaken a bit of a throw away comment to respond to......some of the restrictions placed on olympic competition are warranted and maybe restricted is a better word then watered down.....I have the greatest respect for any competitors who perform in any ruleset and my mention of boxing in regard to TKD/judo was just a point that combat arts are a lot milder at the olympics.

regards stagtown


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It is a civilian fighting system. Civilian meaning that it was developed primarily by people outside of the military and it was not developed fur use during any war. The current style of sparring came about in the late sixties or early seventies and if I remember correctly, it was developed by the Jidokwan. Prior to that, and even after that, most taekwondoin fought in karate tournaments under whatever rules they had.


 
Was there ever a "Military" version, for lack of better words?  




> Don't get me wrong; I'm all for enriching the curriculum. Adding a well developed weapons curriculum to an unarmed art is fine by me, but as you said, it is not relevant to the art.
> 
> Really, when I think of watering down a TKD curriculum, I think of things like Action flex weapons and American Gladiator looking sparring between twelve year olds.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I'm with you on that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

MJS said:


> Was there ever a "Military" version, for lack of better words?


Not to my knowledge.  There was an 'Ohdokwan' which was a military gym where General Choi practiced, but there was really no Ohdokwan taekwondo.  Most or all of the people training there where Chungdokwan members who were also in the military.  Ohdokwan, if I recall, meant 'our way hall' and was not dedicated to a specific style.  I'm sure that Earl or Glenn can offer much more detail than I on that one.

Also, at that time it wasn't called taekwondo.  Pretty sure that the CDK was still calling it Tangsudo.  In other words, they were still practicing Shotokan karate, which CDK founder held a dan grade in (fourth I believe).

The development of taekwondo as a separate art took well over twenty years.  The CDK opened in 1944.  The name, Taekwondo, was not coined until 1955.  It was not adopted by the kwans as a whole until 1965.  The Kukkiwon was establhised in 1973.  Taekwondo debuted as an exhibition sport in the Olympics in 1988 and became a medaled sport in the ninties.  

The sparring style seen in the olympics and in WTF events was developed to resemble taekkyeon.  And if Hanja for taekkyeon had existed, it would be called taekkyeondo, not taekwondo.  While taekwondo is not taekkyeon, creating a rule set that rewards high kicking and restricts hand techniques will make anything look like taekkyeon to someone who doesn't know what taekkyeon really looks like.  It also made taekwondo tournaments distinct from open karate tournaments.

As far as military taekwondo, take Kukki taekwondo and make it part of regular Marine Corps training.  No rule changes.  Entire class are US Marines.  The intructor is, lets say, a 5th dan Marine Corps drill seargant.

Now, imagine what their taekwondo will look like.  Well, you don't have to imagine.  Just watch the Korean team training in Best of the Best.  Replace them with a bunch of US Marines and replace Hee Il Cho with a Marine Corps Drill seargant.  

Same curriculum, whole different attitude.

Daniel


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## tinker1 (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And my thanks to your father and grandfather!
> 
> However, given that I never made a case for zero h2h in war, your statement really doesn't address my comments.
> 
> ...



My father's intention was that I follow in his footsteps, and that's how I came to be studying Savate at age 5.  Savate, at least at that time included quite a lot of knife work.  I don't think it does anymore, as it too has been "watered down".

He knew that things often go south in combat, and you can't always rely on your weapon.

Someone pointed out that "watered down" really not a proper term for what has happened to these arts over the years.  I believe "reduced" or "diminished" would be better.  This is because the curriculum has been reduced, *in part* due to the advent of Olympic sport competition.

If the main focus of the art becomes sport competition, then parts of the art that have no relevance in competition will inevitably reduced or diminished.  Another reason for this reduction is that the general population is really less interested in the old curriculum.  They would rather be learning jump spin kicks than spend hours working on proper body position and bone alignment necessary for a reverse punch.  Martial Arts becoming a business has had at least as much effect on the reduction of the art as has sport in my opinion.

In General Choi's book "Taekwondo" he describes the purpose of the art as (in part) defending the weak.  The other purposes he mentions (if memory serves) do not include competition of any type.  The purposes of the art were to develop character, improve health, and defend the weak.  It was therefore based on combat.

I think Olympic style TKD practitioners can be successful in a SD situation.  This is mostly due to their superior physical conditioning, strength, speed, and sparring experience.  However, the depth and range of the techniques they learn is less than that of a traditionally trained practitioner.  

I think that is the point of this tread.  *Not that Olympic style TKD is invalid in SD, because it isn't.*  I do believe though that the Olympic style is* less valid* in SD than is the traditional style.

I met a fellow in Hawaii - perhaps 10 or 15 years ago - who had an advanced Dan rank in TKD and was a huge proponent of the WTF and the Olympic style.  He did tell me of a situation wherein he was attacked by someone that wanted to steal his wallet.  What he did to discourage this attacker and save himself was to throw repeated round house kicks at his attackers legs and mid section.  He said that eventually his attacker got discouraged and went away.

Contrast that with one of my seniors (back in the 70's) who owned a music store... One day a guy kicked in the door to his office and lunged at him.  (he had no idea why)  My senior stood and threw one punch - hitting the attacker between the bottom of his nose and his upper lip (pressure point).  He said his attacker went down and didn't move.

In both these situations TKD was used successfully to defend themselves.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> Someone pointed out that "watered down" really not a proper term for what has happened to these arts over the years. I believe "reduced" or "diminished" would be better. This is because the curriculum has been reduced, *in part* due to the advent of Olympic sport competition.


That was me and I agree.



tinker1 said:


> If the main focus of the art becomes sport competition, then parts of the art that have no relevance in competition will inevitably reduced or diminished. Another reason for this reduction is that the general population is really less interested in the old curriculum. They would rather be learning jump spin kicks than spend hours working on proper body position and bone alignment necessary for a reverse punch. Martial Arts becoming a business has had at least as much effect on the reduction of the art as has sport in my opinion.


That is that demographic shift and commercialization of many, but certainly not all, schools, element that I mentioned earlier.



tinker1 said:


> In General Choi's book "Taekwondo" he describes the purpose of the art as (in part) defending the weak. The other purposes he mentions (if memory serves) do not include competition of any type. The purposes of the art were to develop character, improve health, and defend the weak. It was therefore based on combat.
> 
> I think Olympic style TKD practitioners can be successful in a SD situation. This is mostly due to their superior physical conditioning, strength, speed, and sparring experience. However, the depth and range of the techniques they learn is less than that of a traditionally trained practitioner.
> 
> I think that is the point of this tread. *Not that Olympic style TKD is invalid in SD, because it isn't.* I do believe though that the Olympic style is* less valid* in SD than is the traditional style.


Judochampion is completely overlooking ITF taekwondo and of course is overlooking pretty much the entirety of Kukkiwon taekwondo as well.



tinker1 said:


> I met a fellow in Hawaii - perhaps 10 or 15 years ago - who had an advanced Dan rank in TKD and was a huge proponent of the WTF and the Olympic style. He did tell me of a situation wherein he was attacked by someone that wanted to steal his wallet. What he did to discourage this attacker and save himself was to throw repeated round house kicks at his attackers legs and mid section. He said that eventually his attacker got discouraged and went away.
> 
> Contrast that with one of my seniors (back in the 70's) who owned a music store... One day a guy kicked in the door to his office and lunged at him. (he had no idea why) My senior stood and threw one punch - hitting the attacker between the bottom of his nose and his upper lip (pressure point). He said his attacker went down and didn't move.
> 
> In both these situations TKD was used successfully to defend themselves.


Both good examples.  I have used taekwondo in self defense myself: low side kick to the knee of a would be mugger armed with a knife followed by application of Fleet Run Do.

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

Some of you TKD guys are only reading bits and pieces of what I'm saying. I don't know how it's taught in your area - only how it's taught in mine... and I'm sorry to say that the Olympic Style TKD they are teaching HERE IN S. FLORIDA is NOT Martial Arts. And if this is what they teach elsewhere - well then, you can see how I came to my conclusion.

The part about Judo laying face down til they call matte' - I hate that. In fact, I don't teach my players that at all. Instead, I teach them to fight from the guard - like in BJJ.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Some of you TKD guys are only reading bits and pieces of what I'm saying. I don't know how it's taught in your area - only how it's taught in mine... and I'm sorry to say that the Olympic Style TKD they are teaching HERE IN S. FLORIDA is NOT Martial Arts. And if this is what they teach elsewhere - well then, you can see how I came to my conclusion.


No, we read it all.  Aside from saying that TKD sucks in so many words and claiming that it has been watered down from military origins that it never had, you really haven't said all that much.

Florida is a pretty big state, so unless you have visited the majority of the schools and have observed them for a meaningful amount of time, you probably are not all that knowledgeable as to what is being taught in TKD schools in Florida.

Also, again, there is no "Olympic _style_."  There are WTF sparring rules that athletes compete under, which are *also* used in the Olympics.  The Olympics does not have a forms or breaking portion, which is a mainstay of non-Olympic competitions.

If you are seeing a school that is WTF competition sparring only, then chances are, it isn't a school so much as a competition team, but there certainly are not enough of those in the country to make anyone think that that is the norm, and there certainly are not enough in any one state.

Chances are, you saw WTF sparring, didn't like it, and concluded that that is what TKD is all about, and then went on the internet and made unsupportable statements about the art.

Daniel


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## frank raud (Jun 10, 2011)

StagTown said:


> sorry frank but youve mistaken a bit of a throw away comment to respond to......some of the restrictions placed on olympic competition are warranted and maybe restricted is a better word then watered down.....I have the greatest respect for any competitors who perform in any ruleset and my mention of boxing in regard to TKD/judo was just a point that combat arts are a lot milder at the olympics.
> 
> regards stagtown


 
Stagtown, you were the second person to reference boxing in this thread. Add your comment about fighting to the death being encouraged, you consider that a throwaway comment? Again, when was fighting to the death encouraged?


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No, we read it all. Aside from saying that TKD sucks in so many words and claiming that it has been watered down from military origins that it never had, you really haven't said all that much.
> 
> Florida is a pretty big state, so unless you have visited the majority of the schools and have observed them for a meaningful amount of time, you probably are not all that knowledgeable as to what is being taught in TKD schools in Florida.
> 
> ...


 Danny - I am NOT the only one who thinks this way... NOT by a long shot! There must be a reason. Either way, I did not start this thread just so I could argue with you back and forth - You have the last word. I won't respond.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

frank raud said:


> when was fighting to the death encouraged?


 Enter the Dragon!!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?


Incidentally, not only do you not know anything about the art, but your argument against Olympic taekwondo is non existant because ATA taekwondo is not in the olympics and TKD at Bally's is for fitness, not self defense or competition.  

The US affiliate for the WTF is USAT, not the ATA.  The ATA is a separate organization with their own forms, curriculum and sparring rules.

Again, you are posting from ignorance with regards to the subject.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Danny - I am NOT the only one who thinks this way... NOT by a long shot! There must be a reason. Either way, I did not start this thread just so I could argue with you back and forth - You have the last word. I won't respond.


We aren't arguing: you are making inaccurate statements about an art that you know nothing about.  I have given you accurate and correct information, both on the art itself and on its background.  

You can either keep your mind closed to correct information or you can try to learn more.  I've pointed you to the water, but that is up to you to drink.

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

^^ COOL ^^ :BSmeter: Whatever you say!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> ^^ COOL ^^ :BSmeter: Whatever you say!


If you can find any BS in my posts, feel free to quote it and point out why it is BS.  I am certainly open to retracting anything that I have said if it is, in fact, incorrect.

If you are _really_ want to learn the reason why other people feel as you do regarding taekwondo, I'd be happy to discuss it with you.  

There's a reason that I haven't commented much about the state of judo: I don't practice it and aside from knowing its origins and that the art involves throwing and grappling, I am unqualified to discuss it, its effectiveness outside of the ring, or how the technique set has been changed since the art's inception.  I am unfamiar with kata and waza or what the rules of randori and kumite (does Judo even use that term?) are.

You seem to be in the same position with regards to knowledge of taekwondo, yet you have gone ahead and made definitive statements about the art anyway.  

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon.  In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon. In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.


That stuff is a huge issue. It is largest in taekwondo because taekwondo is the most popular MA. The popularity of taekwondo has also made it more pervasive in the art, though all that it takes for any art to suffer this nonsense is for it to be popular enough for entrepreneurs to target.

From what I have read, both from former and current ATA members and from others who have taken the time to learn about the ATA first hand, the ATA specializes in providing a fairly pricy after school and family activity geared towards suburban kids. I won't comment on the content of the curriculum because I have never practiced that style of taekwondo. 

The phenomenon is not limited to taekwondo, nor is it limited to the ATA within taekwondo, though ATA taekwondo is the only one that _seems_ to be set up this way at an organiztional level.

The issue that you are describing is often called McDojoism; a ridiculous level of commercialization that is established in order for the school to turn a greater profit. 

Essentially, the basis of the model is that 99% of MA students quit either before or shortly after they get a black piece of cloth. Since you won't have the students much longer than a year or two, you charge on the high side for tuition, charge more for colored belt promotions, add more colored belts, and charge a whopper for the black belt test. Special clubs, such as black belt clubs and masters clubs, are an extra cost and frequently required for training beyond the bare minimum. Demo teams can sometimes be an extra cost as well: students must purchase a dobok/gi for the team. Often, an overpriced pro shop is part of the deal, with students required to buy all of their gear from the school.

Such schools offer all kinds of extra programs, such as XMA, MMA, Krav Maga, and all kinds of weapon curriculums in an effort to be all things to all people and to get more out of the students who do stay past black belt. Often though, such programs are fluff with instructors who are unqualified to teach them.  So far, almost every sword program that I have seen added onto an unarmed KMA has been taught by unqualified people in the schools that I have visited (check out some of the KSA threads).

Students often must sign contracts for a year or more in order to insure that they cannot quit before that black piece of cloth is tied around their waist.

Because no student is failed in colored belt testings, nor held back, lest they not get far enough to be hit with a black belt test and its associated fee, the quality of the students suffers overall. 

Because the emphasis is on "rah rah attaboy!" and on essentially graduating the students from the school after (usually) 24 months, the amount of correction and attention to detail is usually very low.

In order to avoid law suits and angry parents, sparring is usually made light to no contact while still requiring a ton of pads and in competitions, everyone gets a trophy.

Does this sound like what you have been seeing?

If so, then I am with you completely: such schools are worthless for anything but cheap daycare.

There are several schools like that around here. Surprisingly, most of them are not taekwondo.

Daniel


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I have not pretended to be an expert at TKD - or to even have any knowledge on the sport... I stated an opinion, nothing elses. My personal exposure to TKD may not have been much - but it was very negative in each case that saw the parents paying for belt promotions, the kids didn't deserve in the first place. Ridiculous what they charge per each belt promo, and every 3 months, no wonder kids make blackbelt in about 3 years. Kinda like robbing them, but without a weapon. In fact - they call it "Tae Kwon Don't" and "Take Ones Dough" in my area. I'm not making that up.


 

We call those McDojos...it is quite possible for someone to get there black belt in 3 years...I did...but you have to go EVERYDAY...make it part of your life...like I did.

but there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...

Sport=fitness
Real=Defense


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...
> 
> Sport=fitness
> Real=Defense


 I've been trying to make that point. I'm not putting down traditional / hard core TKD - only the Olympic version.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion...I have to admit I'm partial to hitting submissions off the back of my opponents. A lot of local Judo players don't have or expect much of a submission game. That said, we roll too. Locally, we're known for our ne-waza.  



Sensei Payne said:


> We call those McDojos...it is quite possible for someone to get there black belt in 3 years...I did...but you have to go EVERYDAY...make it part of your life...like I did.
> 
> but there is Sport TKD and then there is Real TKD..both have its place and time...both good...but for different things...
> 
> ...



There is literally no such system as Sport TKD. Even Olympic athletes are KKW TaeKwonDo black belts. KKW TKD is no less "real" than ITF or whatever other organization one chooses to represent. I also feel the need to point out that I don't know a single "hard core" TKD practitioner, as you put it, who trains half as hard as I do. I'm in the gym five days a week and the dojang at least four, and I do it to get better at full contact fighting. I think how hard one works determines how hardcore you are, not the fact you don't compete or think competition is silly.

And before you jump on me, no, I'm not particularly hardcore. I'm a local competitor.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I've been trying to make that point. I'm not putting down traditional / hard core TKD - only the Olympic version.


But what do you know about the olympic version?  

If you are thinking of what you have seen in ATA schools, it isn't the same.

If you've watched WTF/Olympic matches on youtube or elsewhere and don't like it, what is it that you did not like?

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> 1) But what do you know about the olympic version?
> 
> 2) If you are thinking of what you have seen in ATA schools, it isn't the same.
> 
> ...


 
1) Nothing! You got me.

2) I gotcha, understood.

3) I hated it! It looked like they were dancing - not fighting!


:slapfight:


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to my knowledge. There was an 'Ohdokwan' which was a military gym where General Choi practiced, but there was really no Ohdokwan taekwondo. Most or all of the people training there where Chungdokwan members who were also in the military. Ohdokwan, if I recall, meant 'our way hall' and was not dedicated to a specific style. I'm sure that Earl or Glenn can offer much more detail than I on that one.
> 
> Also, at that time it wasn't called taekwondo. Pretty sure that the CDK was still calling it Tangsudo. In other words, they were still practicing Shotokan karate, which CDK founder held a dan grade in (fourth I believe).
> 
> ...


 
So, going on this, what would make the art, have less of a watered down appearance?  I mean, going on posts/threads that I've seen here, seems the general consensus is the art is very watered down.  Were the attitude, as you said, to be different, would this change the appearance?  In your opinion, what would make it less watered down?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2011)

MJS said:


> So, going on this, what would make the art, have less of a watered down appearance? I mean, going on posts/threads that I've seen here, seems the general consensus is the art is very watered down.


Less an issue of the art itself being watered down/truncated than it is the level of commercialism in many schools. Taekwondo has suffered more than other arts because its popularity attracts entrepreneurs looking to cash in, so to speak. 

The other issue is the demographic shift from mostly guys who liked to fight to families and kids and fitness minded adults.

With the high quanitity of children with black belts, rightly or wrongly, makes people assume that it must be watered down in order to accomodate kids.



MJS said:


> Were the attitude, as you said, to be different, would this change the appearance? In your opinion, what would make it less watered down?


Good question. The forms have remained the same for forty years, so it isn't like they'd have to 'go back' to what they had. I think that the major appearance issue is the WTF sparring. 

Not because it is good or bad, but because people see a sparring style that has a very limited range of techniques and doesn't look like guys doing 'karate.' So the assumption is that the art has been shorn of techniques, when in fact, this is not the case. The fact that the sparring is the most visible part of the art reinforces this.

So long as the bulk of your student base is children and their moms, the appearance will not change. Like anything else, there is a lot about Kukkiwon Taekwondo that outsiders just don't get. 

The same could be said of Brazillian JiuJitsu. All some people see is two guys rolling around on the ground. Having grappling experience, I can see that there is a lot more going on, but that the perception of some people.

LIkewise, the nature of shihap kyorugi (sparring) is such that if you don't get it, you don't get it. It was designed specifically to make it, A.) not karate, and B.) look like Taekkyeon, a part of Korean cultural heritage.

I can tell you all day long about the merits of the sparring, but until you train in it, you probably won't 'get it.' Kind of like that Capoeira thread; F/C tried very hard to explain that there was more to the art than what is seen in the Roda. But that is the most visible part of the art. Mix in cultural traditions and things peculiar to the culture from which the art came, many people just don't get it.

Probably the one thing that would help the appearance of any school, TKD or otherwise, is a very strong teen and adult demo team that can effectively demonstrate the different aspect of the art, from tournament sparring to forms to self defense, and look crisp and sharp.

But so long as the bulk of the students are young kids and tweens, its hard to present an image of a fighting system when your classes look more like an MA version of Gymboree during the afternoon when most people will see your school.

Not busting on kids classes; the disposition is what it is. 

Daniel


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## OKenpo942 (Jun 10, 2011)

I totally agree. Unless it was my initial intent to take it as a sport, I would never join a school that emphasized this type. I wanted to learn to fight/defend myself, not score points and earn trophies. I did this some and enjoyed it, however, my intent was never anything close to this. 

I think it is bad for the various arts to water them down. The term is "martial art" . It was intended for war. Keep it that way.

Just my opinion,

James


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 10, 2011)

Well, we just spent five pages establishing that TaeKwonDo was not developed for war. In fact you'll find that most martial arts were not.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) Nothing! You got me.
> 
> 2) I gotcha, understood.
> 
> ...


To YOU it looks like dancing because you dont understand it. To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor because I dont understand it. Difference is, I dont jump on the internet and bag out on something I dont understand or know anything about.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 10, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> 1) To YOU it looks like dancing because you dont understand it.
> 
> 2) To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor because I dont understand it.
> 
> 3) Difference is, I dont jump on the internet and bag out on something I dont understand or know anything about.


 
1) All I saw was a lot of jumping up and down (bouncing), hands held way-down low, more protective gear than what the gladiators wore, back in the day, and the occational kick to the head (one at a time) - BORING!!!

2) What don't you understand? BJJ? - Men Rolling? (rolling what?) - Making Love? - Love on the Floor? BJJ is a M/A form in which the object is to strangle, choke, armbar, leglock, etc, etc, etc your opponent until he/she surrenders - or before he/she does it to you. The other things on that list would take me far longer to explain. Don't have the time right now.

3) No, of course not. You bag out on the guy doing so. Thanks a lot. :wah:


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 10, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) All I saw was a lot of jumping up and down (bouncing), hands held way-down low, more protective gear than what the gladiators wore, back in the day, and the occational kick to the head (one at a time) - BORING!!!
> 
> 2) What don't you understand? BJJ? - Men Rolling? (rolling what?) - Making Love? - Love on the Floor? BJJ is a M/A form in which the object is to strangle, choke, armbar, leglock, etc, etc, etc your opponent until he/she surrenders - or before he/she does it to you. The other things on that list would take me far longer to explain. Don't have the time right now.
> 
> 3) No, of course not. You bag out on the guy doing so. Thanks a lot. :wah:


As a tkdist who doesnt do "sport" tkd I spent years bagging out on it. Then one day I got the opportunity to spar one of those guys. Believe me, they are martial artists and with the speed and power in those kicks you want to be wearing protective gear. They regularly break ribs with those kicks despite the hogu. To you it looks like dancing, but I can assure you it aint dancing. And thats coming from someone who hates 'sport' tkd.


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## MJS (Jun 10, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Less an issue of the art itself being watered down/truncated than it is the level of commercialism in many schools. Taekwondo has suffered more than other arts because its popularity attracts entrepreneurs looking to cash in, so to speak.
> 
> The other issue is the demographic shift from mostly guys who liked to fight to families and kids and fitness minded adults.
> 
> With the high quanitity of children with black belts, rightly or wrongly, makes people assume that it must be watered down in order to accomodate kids.


 
Sad but true.  




> Good question. The forms have remained the same for forty years, so it isn't like they'd have to 'go back' to what they had. I think that the major appearance issue is the WTF sparring.
> 
> Not because it is good or bad, but because people see a sparring style that has a very limited range of techniques and doesn't look like guys doing 'karate.' So the assumption is that the art has been shorn of techniques, when in fact, this is not the case. The fact that the sparring is the most visible part of the art reinforces this.
> 
> ...


 

IMO, it shouldn't be that hard to change though.  It all comes down to whether or not someone actually wants to make a change for the better.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> As a tkdist who doesnt do "sport" tkd I spent years bagging out on it. Then one day I got the opportunity to spar one of those guys. Believe me, they are martial artists and with the speed and power in those kicks you want to be wearing protective gear. They regularly break ribs with those kicks despite the hogu. To you it looks like dancing, but I can assure you it aint dancing. And thats coming from someone who hates 'sport' tkd.



See, Mr. McPherson gets it.


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## seasoned (Jun 11, 2011)

Carol said:


> Personally as someone who prefers the "battlefield arts" (as my Silat system-head describes), I don't care for watered down arts....at least for me.
> 
> people train for different reasons. *People train for competition*, for *fun*, for *fitness*, for a *family exercise*...I don't personally have an issue with why other people train. I just have an issue when it becomes so widespread that it is difficult to find rigorous arts out of fears of lawsuits, freaked out karate moms, a grisly clientele, or what have you.
> 
> ...


Carol has nailed it as about as good as anyone can. What it was intended for, and what it has evolved into, is two different issues. I will add that if you don't know what to look for pertaining to what you expect to gain from it, it can be daunting, to say the least. 
As a side note, Carol mentions some expectations above that people may be looking for. I would say that almost any school will meet them. Now, if you are looking for a "DoJo", this will take a little more time and searching.  
I do have a problem with a school that has something for everyone, when self defense taught properly, may not be for everyone. This can be misleading.


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## Blade96 (Jun 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> To ME bjj looks like two grown men rolling around making love on the floor



In the kenpo school i trained at for 2 months before starting shotokan karate, there was a guy and a girl practicing bjj and a yellow belt who was watching said loudly :Get a room" 
It was funny. we all cracked up.=]


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 11, 2011)

MJS said:


> IMO, it shouldn't be that hard to change though.  It all comes down to whether or not someone actually wants to make a change for the better.


Good or bad, there are certain decisions that are already made that will not be unmade.

*Starting with the Olympics*, people who watch it and then disregard or disrespect it because they don't like the rule set are simply a fact of life.  If you don't get it, you don't get it.  There really is no way to change that short of radically altering the rules.  Since they put the rules in place for specific reasons, the rules should not be changed.  

*The demographic* is another thing: it is primarily families and kids followed by working adults who want to train and get into shape and 'always wanted to try karate.'  No matter how badly we may want to change that, the bulk of MA students in the US fall into those categories.  The bulk of those students are not going to turn into MMA champions or super street fighters, nor are they going to perform with 'military precision.'

*Other organizations* with differing goals on what taekwondo should be also affect things.  The OP was criticizing "Olympic style" when what he actually had seen in his area was ATA style.  To outsiders, there is just "taekwondo."  Since you cannot control what other organizations do, that issue will never go away.

About the only thing that the Kukkiwon _could_ do to would potentially address the gripes of people in the US would be to increase time in grade requirement for ildan to a hard 3-4 years.  

No point in doing that though; the same people who complain about that would simply find something else to complain about. 

Greater oversight might also help, but then the same people who complain about lack of enforcement on the Kukkiwon's part would then rail against some big "foreign org" telling them how to run their school.

Finally, I'm not sure that TKD's image with the general public needs any fixing.  If its a question of impressing other MA practitioners, then I don't see the need.

Again the major issue is the commercialism factor, but that is hardly limited to Taekwondo.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 11, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) Nothing! You got me.
> 
> 2) I gotcha, understood.
> 
> ...


Its not for everyone, but then neither is anything else.  I still train in TKD and probably always will; first love kind of thing.  But I mainly concentrate on and instruct hapkido and kumdo.  

The WTF rules are not my cup of tea, but they do have merit.  

The pumse (forms) have a much greater concentration of hand techniques while the shihap kyorugi (sparring) focuses mainly on kicking techniques.  If you want to develop good kicks, TKD sparring as seen in the olympics is a great vehicle.  

Distance management and timing are also crucial in the sport.  The hands down makes sense in the context; it is more effective to avoid head level kicks than it is to block them and keeping your guard low keeps the body guarded.  

In the end, I found that hapkido was a better fit for me.  When I practice taekwondo, it is just taekwondo.  I don't ask it to be what it isn't, love it for what it is, and study arts that have the elements that I like that are not found in taekwondo.

Certainly, I won't tell you that you _should_ like it.  Sounds like Judo and BJJ are probably a better fit for you than TKD would be anyway.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 11, 2011)

OKenpo942 said:


> I totally agree. Unless it was my initial intent to take it as a sport, I would never join a school that emphasized this type. I wanted to learn to fight/defend myself, not score points and earn trophies. I did this some and enjoyed it, however, my intent was never anything close to this.
> 
> *I think it is bad for the various arts to water them down. The term is "martial art" . It was intended for war. Keep it that way.*
> 
> ...


Yes, but again, many of the arts that people practice were not "intended for war" at all.

Judo was never intended for war.  Neither was taekwondo, hapkido, aikido, kyokushin, Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Keysi, or most of the arts that are mixed to become MMA.  

So how can you ask that they keep it that way if it was never that way to begin with?

Daniel


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## frank raud (Jun 11, 2011)

Judo champion, do you teach old school judo, with the banned techniques(leg locks, neck cranks, kani basami, dojime, etc.) or do you follow the IJF rules and only teach what is competition legal? If you teach the old techniques, were did you learn them?


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 11, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Judo champion, do you teach old school judo, with the banned techniques(leg locks, neck cranks, kani basami, dojime, etc.) or do you follow the IJF rules and only teach what is competition legal? If you teach the old techniques, were did you learn them?


 Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.

Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:

My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:


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## Blade96 (Jun 11, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in tournaments



Same here - Some of the things we learn in Shotokan Karate we are not allowed to use them in tournaments.


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## frank raud (Jun 12, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.
> 
> Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:
> 
> My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:


 
I asked where you learned them as many instructors have never been taught the banned tecniques. A lot of schools with a heavy competion emphasis don't teach much in the way of techniques that can't be used in competion, or that are not a requirement for belt testing.

Are you suggesting that "Morote gari" and "Kata Garuma" are banned techniques?


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 12, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Are you suggesting that "Morote gari" and "Kata Garuma" are banned techniques?


 It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.


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## RRepster (Jun 12, 2011)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Personally I feel martial arts being watered down is a tragedy. Judo was created as a sport from Ju Jutsu however it was still a very brutal art. I am saddened to hear that some of the chokes and throws have been eliminated from judo for the olympics.
> 
> More personal to me is the push for on sport karate (whats being called traditional) through the groups trying to get karate in the olympics. They are trying to drastically systemize karatedo which even today in Okinawa it is not. The Okinawan's still teach people to their strengths for the most part and it is acceptable if someone doing kata looks a little different than someone else. The emphasis is still in the bunkai not on the show. At least thats what I saw when I was there last year. As a long time karate practioner (approaching 30 years) it is my believe that the tradition should be what it was created for self-preservation not sport.
> 
> ...



So many good points in your two cents Brandon. I really like your point about Karatedo looking different based on peoples strengths, weaknesses and even abilities/disabilities. Everytime I hear someone say in my TKD class, "Less punching, this is TKD we are 80%+ kicking!" I just want to vomit because they may as well just call it KD then instead of TKD and they are trying to tell me who has trained TKD for 25 years and used parts of my training for REAL in the military that I'm somehow not practicing TKD. What that really illustrates IMO is people who don't truly understand the DO part. I really think one who understands that part of the name can excel at whatever art they want be it TKD, JUDO, or the myriad styles of CMA.

So what do we do? That answer is actually easier than we may think and starts with a simple question: How bad do you want it? If new to the art but the real thing you may have to hunt for it far and wide but it's there. Mr. Miyagi is out there, he just may not be at your YMCA or rented commercial dojo. I found him for Hsing-I training and have to do a lot of solo training, maintain correspondence and travel when I can to him but it's worth it. In the meantime I attend the TKD class with all its good things and bad things we are lamenting about in this thread BUT it's fun, is a good aerobic exercise, and I practice it with my daughter who is learning discipline, citizenship, and the exercise literally is saving her life (she has Cystic Fibrosis and cardio/aerobic helps expel mucus from the lungs and chest cavity).

Also those who've found things lacking in their martial arts place may be ready to teach. Talk to your master, I bet she'll agree with you and you and the other seniors may be able to set up an advanced class. If for some weird reason she doesn't see your point then the time really has come to part ways because no further learning is likely capable on your part from them. Find another master to report to while you set off to become Mr. Miyagi.


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## RRepster (Jun 12, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.



Yea but does that mean it's not practiced in class as self defense part? Also remember Judo was set up to BE sport therefore it will evolve for the safety of players and excitement of audience.

I mean come on, we all know three places are the best targets for self defense but when we practice them we do not actually strike them and they are banned in sport for obvious reasons: eyes, groin, throat, and even the knee. If you get disabled every week in class your not going to get much training done.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 12, 2011)

RRepster said:


> Yea but does that mean it's not practiced in class as self defense part? Also remember Judo was set up to BE sport therefore it will evolve for the safety of players and excitement of audience.
> 
> I mean come on, we all know three places are the best targets for self defense but when we practice them we do not actually strike them and they are banned in sport for obvious reasons: eyes, groin, throat, and even the knee. If you get disabled every week in class your not going to get much training done.


 I assume you are not referring to me when making your point - since I've already posted that I do teach many things that are illegal and NOT allowed in Judo competition - you saw the list a few posts ago... I even teach some small joint manipulation. Doesn't mean we actually use it while rolling or Randori. But yeah, I teach it, we practice it in a controled environment, but the players know it is NOT to be used in Judo competition. I teach them stuff and I tell them what they can and can't do in tournaments - and they've learned two lessons in one.

On the Original Topic - Kouchi Stemi is now very iffy and in fact, I am asking my students to be very careful how and when they use it, if at all. They are (the Refs) calling more and more HonsakuMake on this techniqus, and I suspect they will continue to do so, until it is driven to extinction... more watering down by taking away techniques that work when properly taught, practiced and applied.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 12, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.
> 
> Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:
> 
> My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:



No Kani Basami? Kani Basami is a cool throw. Of course, I can't nail it, but it's cool to watch.


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## frank raud (Jun 12, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> It's not a suggestion - it is fact! They were banned in Jan. 2010 and can only be used in a combo as the second technique. If used as the initial technique - the player gets a HonsakuMake (disqualification) - without warning.


 

Yet they are completely legal if used as a followup in a combination. Kani Basami is banned outright, neck locks and cranks are banned outright. The IJF wants to avoid wrestling style takedowns as a first line of offense to help differentiate between different styles of grappling and judo. Not saying I agree with it, but it is an interesting "ban" as the techniques remain legal if used in combination.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 12, 2011)

I understand your point - but techniques that cause NO injury and are part of other styles (BJJ, Wrestling, Grappling) and have been proven to be effective - such as Morote Gari, Kata Guruma and now, Koushi Stemi, are banned from Judo, due to players who are ahead on the score and use these techniques with NO real effort or conviction to finish the throw - and in fact, are using it as a stalling tactic in an effort to just take time off the clock and win by decision - instead of trying to win by Ippon! Nothing to do with trying to prevent injury or anyone from getting hurt in any way... and some of what you posted, as well.


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## MJS (Jun 12, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Good or bad, there are certain decisions that are already made that will not be unmade.
> 
> *Starting with the Olympics*, people who watch it and then disregard or disrespect it because they don't like the rule set are simply a fact of life. If you don't get it, you don't get it. There really is no way to change that short of radically altering the rules. Since they put the rules in place for specific reasons, the rules should not be changed.
> 
> ...


 
Well, as usual, I can always count on a nice reply from you Dan.   The only thing that I'll comment on is the demographic.  Yes, I certainly understand this, and have said it myself many times....that people will all have their own reasons for training....some for fitness, to meet new people, etc.  After having alot of training and teaching time under my belt, IMO, the majority is the group that I mentioned, and the minority are the ones who actually care about what they're learning, put in the blood, sweat and tears, bust their *** every class, and care about 1 thing....ensuring that what they're learning will work, should they need to use it.  

So, that being said, unless the school owner isn't relying on their school as their bread and butter, they'll most likely bow down to the majority.  Nothing wrong with this I suppose, but in the end you'll end up with alot of people who enroll themselves or their kids, and think that the training they're receiving is really worth something, when in reality, its not.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 12, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, as usual, I can always count on a nice reply from you Dan.   The only thing that I'll comment on is the demographic.  Yes, I certainly understand this, and have said it myself many times....that people will all have their own reasons for training....some for fitness, to meet new people, etc.  After having alot of training and teaching time under my belt, IMO, the majority is the group that I mentioned, and the minority are the ones who actually care about what they're learning, put in the blood, sweat and tears, bust their *** every class, and care about 1 thing....ensuring that what they're learning will work, should they need to use it.


Indeed.  Agree completely.



MJS said:


> So, that being said, unless the school owner isn't relying on their school as their bread and butter, they'll most likely bow down to the majority.  Nothing wrong with this I suppose, but in the end you'll end up with alot of people who enroll themselves or their kids, and think that the training they're receiving is really worth something, when in reality, its not.


Well, really worth something is open to interpretation.  If they join for fitness and become fit, then their training has the worth that they sought.  If they have their kids in the class in order for them to learn greater discipline and to help them develop as people, then again, the training has the worth that was sought.

Will it have any worth if the student enters open competition or should need to defend themselves?  That is another question.  Do they care if it has worth in that regard?  Also another question.

Daniel


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## RRepster (Jun 12, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I assume you are not referring to me when making your point



correct, just thoughts based off the quote.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 13, 2011)

Thank you for you comments on my comments RRepster.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 13, 2011)

Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.

1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
2) NO punches allowed.
3) Hands held down low.
4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.
5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.
6) 100 lbs of protective gear.
7) Board breaking...

... How does breaking boards make you a Martial Artist, and/or help you win a match or any other kind of fight? It's nothing more than a marketing tool, used in order to make the students feel good about themselves - to keep them coming back, and to collect a hefty fee from the parents, on a regular basis.


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## tinker1 (Jun 13, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
> 2) NO punches allowed.
> 3) Hands held down low.
> 4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.
> ...



I've seen many / most of these things in schools of other MA styles as well.  So I view this as more of an instructor problem than anything else.

1) bouncing.
I never taught this.. I consider it a waste of energy - AND more importantly you take away 50% of the time you could use to launch an attack.  It also leaves you vulnerable.. all you have to do is time their jumps (which are usually rhythmic) and come at them as soon as they leave the ground.  The additional delay they incur because they are in the air usually results in success for you.

2) no punches
Some people have a definite preference for kicking, just as some have a preference for punching.  If that's their "style" then they can learn to deal with it.  If they are successful with that "style" of fighting, who am I to tell them to do otherwise.  HOWEVER at the least, the student needs to be able to defend against punches.

3) low hands
Consequences of this action are the best teacher.  Let them get smacked a few times.. then suggest that maybe they should do something with their hand position.

4) child black belts
I believe this is more of a money maker for the school than it is anything else.  BUT if they can do the work, then they deserve the rank.  Typically kids under 16 - 18 years are given poom belts, and are retested when they are older for their black belts.
BUT how do you view small people with black belts?  I have seen very small women (< 5') earn dan rank.  If you object to children with dan rank, then how do you feel about small people?  Just curious.

5) undeserved promotions
I've seen this.  I saw a girl get promoted for taking care of the Master's horse while he was away on vacation.  It happens.  No, it isn't right.. but it happens... in all schools (the example above was at a Kenpo school).

6) excess protective gear
A friend of mine runs a Shotokan school - and his insurance demands that if there is a piece of protective padding, that his students wear it during sparring - and during all contact training.  Not doing so constitutes negligence in the eyes of his insurance company.

7) board breaking
Pros and Cons go both ways on this.  There is some benefit to this type of training, but that benefit can be attained by other training methods.  People who have to break at a rank testing get a feeling of accomplishment.. which is good for business.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 13, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> I've seen many / most of these things in schools of other MA styles as well. So I view this as more of an instructor problem than anything else.
> 
> 1) bouncing.
> I never taught this.. I consider it a waste of energy - AND more importantly you take away 50% of the time you could use to launch an attack. It also leaves you vulnerable.. all you have to do is time their jumps (which are usually rhythmic) and come at them as soon as they leave the ground. The additional delay they incur because they are in the air usually results in success for you.
> ...


 I'm not sure if you agree with me, or if you're just throwing excuses out there.  Either way - Thanks for your response.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 13, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'm not sure if you agree with me, or if you're just throwing excuses out there.  Either way - Thanks for your response.


 

I don't think that all TKD schools are that way..I have sparred and trained with several TKD guys that I would never mess with.

It really comes down to SPORT TKD or SELF-DEFENSE TKD

Sport they are just doing whatever they can do to get a point...no protecting the groin..no protecting the face, or back, etc...

Bouncy so they can jump of your guard...if you hit them while they are in the air, UNNESSARY ROUGHNESS POINT DEDUCTED (thats aginst you btw)

Self Defense style is traditional Korean style..and belive me..these guys are brutal. They kick to the head like a boxer punches...you can't take many of them.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 13, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> BUT how do you view small people with black belts?


??? Strange question. Size has nothing to do with it, if they have the skills. I'm referring to youngsters who are wearing blackbelts and tripping over themselves, due to lack of balance and coordination, lack of skills related to their M/A style, and lack of any fighting ability, what so ever.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 13, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> I don't think that all TKD schools are that way..I have sparred and trained with several TKD guys that I would never mess with.
> 
> It really comes down to SPORT TKD or SELF-DEFENSE TKD
> 
> ...


 
1) If you don't have to worry about getting hit in the face - How do you learn how to defend against it?

2) I hit, but I get a point deducted due to "Unnecessary Roughness"... Isn't hitting the other guy the object of it all?

3) Why all that protective gear, if I'm not supposed to get hit? What's it protecting me from?

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it - not at all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 13, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> 1) If you don't have to worry about getting hit in the face - How do you learn how to defend against it?
> 
> 2) I hit, but I get a point deducted due to "Unnecessary Roughness"... Isn't hitting the other guy the object of it all?
> 
> ...


Not sure what angle you're looking at this from, but given that WTF is the largest of the organizations, your criticisms don't really apply.  Not sure what ATA sparring is like, but from your previous posts, I will assume that that is what you are familiar with.

In WTF, the head is a target, and I'm pretty sure that the face is too.  
WTF sparring is full contact and a point is not scored unless trembling shock is present on impact.
As for the gear, WTF sparring is full contact.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 13, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.


Most of which are ATA.  WTF schools outnumber ATA overall by a significant margin.  Some of what you describe is just Mcdojoism and has nothing to do with the art.  Some of what you describe regarding sparring rules are specific to the ATA.



JudoChampion said:


> 1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.


Burns calories?  I know that the bouncing is fairly common in sport TKD.  Again, a consequence of the rule set.  Not my cup of tea, and when I spar, I don't do it.  But I'm also not a high level competitor.  Perhaps someone who is can speak with more authority on this one.



JudoChampion said:


> 2) NO punches allowed.


This is false.  WTF allows full contact punches to the body are permitted.  Same as in kyokushin.  ITF allows more hand techniques than that if I'm not mistaken.



JudoChampion said:


> 3) Hands held down low.


A consequence of the rule set.  To be fair, though, that is where your hands are most of the time.



JudoChampion said:


> 4) Youngters under 10 y/o wearing blackbelts.


Cannot speak for other arts, but KKW/WTF students under fifteen do not receive a dan, but a pum grade and are not supposed to wear the black belt.  In the US, however, this seems largely ignored.  A training moment perhaps? 



JudoChampion said:


> 5) Undeserved promotions... NOT based on merit... too many, too soon.


While I hate this too, this is not art specific.  I've seen it in schools of many arts.  Sadly.



JudoChampion said:


> 6) 100 lbs of protective gear.


Actually, about five.



JudoChampion said:


> 7) Board breaking...
> 
> ... How does breaking boards make you a Martial Artist, and/or help you win a match or any other kind of fight? *It's nothing more than a marketing tool, used in order to make the students feel good about themselves - to keep them coming back, and to collect a hefty fee from the parents, on a regular basis.*


I think that it has become that in some, or even many schools.  

But the purpose of breaking is to test correct technique, not to win matches.  Assuming that actual boards are used, incorrect technique will prevent the student from attaining a clean break.  

There are a lot of arguments that I have heard against breaking, and none of them have to do with commercialization.  Some people feel that it is counterproductive, others say that they ended up with arthritis as a result of years of doing it.  

Daniel


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## frank raud (Jun 13, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Many techniques I teach are completely illegal and NOT allowed in Judo tournaments - but allowed in Grappling events and very useful in a street fight. NO Kani Basami, little Dojime (not much at all), Yes Guillotine, some reverse chokes, neck cranks, leglocks - but - I discourage/disallow them from using such techniques in class during randori, and I emphasize that it is NOT allowed in Judo competition and if used - it will cause them to be disqualified... same as I do for "Morote Gari", "Kata Guruma", etc. when I teach them as well.
> 
> Where did I learn them? You've got to be kiddin' - so I'll say this:
> 
> My knowledge is so great - it would take up all my time to elaborate on where it all came from. :uhyeah:


 
So if you(and presumably your instructors taughts other students the same way) and other instructors are teaching the whole of the art, while carefully explaining that certain techniques are for self defense applications, and not for competition, how is judo watered down? Apparently all the techniques are being shown in their proper application.

Why no Kani Basami? Especially with such an emphatic NO?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 14, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Here is a list of things I've personally seen and make me believe that TKD is ineffective as a Martial Arts style, in it's current form, as taught in my area.
> 
> 1) Lots of useless bouncing / jumping up and down.
> 2) NO punches allowed.
> ...


I dont know where you get the idea that there is no punching. In both ITF and WTF tkd punching is a legal technique in sparring, and only scores if it connects with "trembling shock", ie they punch hard. Olympic sparring is also full contact, with knockouts and extra points for head kicks. I dont consider a hogu, head gear, and foot guards as "100 lbs of protective gear", particularly in a "full contact" sparring match. Also, in the WTF, which is the largest tkd org on earth, there are no 10 year old black belts, you have to be 15 or 16 from memory to get a black belt. I think you are basing all your assumptions on the ATA which on a world wide scale would make up a tiny % of all tkdists.


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## tinker1 (Jun 14, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> ??? Strange question. Size has nothing to do with it, if they have the skills. I'm referring to youngsters who are wearing blackbelts and tripping over themselves, due to lack of balance and coordination, lack of skills related to their M/A style, and lack of any fighting ability, what so ever.



I probably was thinking about the child black belt thread when I wrote this...

I've seen many kids with black belts.  Some have been as you described.  Others DEFINITELY not so.  These later ones were highly skilled, coordinated, limber, smart, and fast as lightening.

I've also seen adults with black belts that fit your description above.  Limited balance and coordination, no flexibility, stiff as an old dead branch.

As to the skill of TKD practitioners, I think it's pretty much like anything else.. everyone's an individual.  They come to training with a certain genetic potential and a certain innate mind set.  Some people will never be very flexible or quick or strong.  Some people have a disposition against pushing themselves hard.

My personal belief is that the ones that don't push themselves should not earn a Dan rank. (unless that changes)  

Sometimes though, the naturally talented ones don't really push themselves - because they've never had to.. things just come easy for them.  Sometimes that's a curse, because what they developed came easy to them and so they place less value on it.  There have been times when I've questioned whether I should test a physically talented student for Dan, because I questioned their mental toughness.  Having mental toughness is a huge part of earning that rank level (in my opinion).

On the other hand, I've had students that really came into training without much natural physical talent.  But they pushed themselves HARD.  They made up for their deficiencies by developing other talents.  Fighting intelligence for example - this can make up for a lack of speed and flexibility.  My best students were this way.

In part, what you speak of could be a result of commercialization of the arts.  It's expensive to open and maintain a training studio.  Garage / basement / back-of-restaurant training studios are a thing of the past.  

Rent of commercial property is extremely high (even these days).  Mats, training bags, focus mitts, etc etc etc - are all costly, so just setting up and equipping a training studio can run into the thousands or tens of thousands of dollars.  As an instructor you have to create a "corporate veil" via a LLC or S-type corp, and purchase liability insurance.  All this before you even start working at attracting students.  

So, considering all those expenses.. how many students do you need to just break even?  And if you want to make a living running a martial arts studio as a business, how many students do you need to afford a place to live, a car to drive, and food to eat?

It would certainly be lovely to be wealthy enough to only take on a few students - the dedicated ones that really put in the work.  But at the end of the day, none of us can afford to do that.  So we attract as many bodies as we can, in hopes that some of them at least will be a pleasure to teach.

You need those warm bodies signing on and training just so you can keep the lights on.  We hope that out of those masses we will encounter a few that will possess the mental and physical skills and disposition to make it to Dan rank.  Of the rest, we hope we can teach them something of value that enhances their life enough to make a difference.

Due to the volume of students necessary to stay in business, I think we all make compromises.  Personally I've never promoted anyone to Dan rank that I was not proud of.  I've never promoted anyone to Dan rank that I did not completely believe was worthy of that rank.  HOWEVER I have seen Master Koo do that.  

I suppose that falls into the category of "necessary evil" for some.

Sorry for the rambling post.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 14, 2011)

frank raud said:


> So if you(and presumably your instructors taughts other students the same way) and other instructors are teaching the whole of the art, while carefully explaining that certain techniques are for self defense applications, and not for competition, how is judo watered down? Apparently all the techniques are being shown in their proper application.
> 
> Why no Kani Basami? Especially with such an emphatic NO?


 
Points:

1) I'm the only Judo Instructor in my area (and my bro) that I know of, that teach young children - SUBMISSIONS - of any kind... only BJJ instructors do so as well. NONE teach Morote Gari, Kata Guruma, Kouchi Stemi, or any other technique which may require and/or has the remote possibility of grabbing or even touching below the opponents belt - "HonsakuMake". If you do it in practice - you do it in competition - they say... I don't listen.

2) I refuse to teach a technique which is just as capable of injuring myself during application - as it is of injuring my opponent. Besides, it's NOT very practical in a street fight, either.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont know where you get the idea that there is no punching. In both ITF and WTF tkd punching is a legal technique in sparring, and only scores if it connects with "trembling shock", ie they punch hard. Olympic sparring is also full contact, with knockouts and extra points for head kicks. I dont consider a hogu, head gear, and foot guards as "100 lbs of protective gear", particularly in a "full contact" sparring match. Also, in the WTF, which is the largest tkd org on earth, there are no 10 year old black belts, you have to be 15 or 16 from memory to get a black belt. I think you are basing all your assumptions on the ATA which on a world wide scale would make up a tiny % of all tkdists.


 Points well made - Thanks, I'm starting to understand.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> JudoChampion...I have to admit I'm partial to hitting submissions off the back of my opponents. A lot of local Judo players don't have or expect much of a submission game. That said, we roll too. Locally, we're known for our ne-waza.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
There is a difference in training for Sport and Training for Self Defense...Sport, your looking for that point...Defense..your looking to protect yourself the best you can.

I have sparred with different practitioners of TKD..those who trained for Points or Life Protection...and trust me..there is a difference..it comes down to "Intent", instead of style.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> There is a difference in training for Sport and Training for Self Defense...Sport, your looking for that point...Defense..your looking to protect yourself the best you can.


 Usually, if you excell at the sport part of M/A - you will also do well in defending yourself... and visa versa.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Usually, if you excell at the sport part of M/A - you will also do well in defending yourself... and visa versa.


 

I disagree...

yes you will be physically fit from the sport karate...and yeah, its a great work out..

But there is a HUGE difference in training to get a point and training to knock the other guy down...

when your in the heat of the moment..your training takes over...and if you trained to do a jumping back hand to get that point and then stop...prepare to take a beat down..also in Life protection, there is NO PADDING.

Your self Defense is WHAT you PRACTICE.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> I disagree...
> 
> yes you will be physically fit from the sport karate...and yeah, its a great work out..
> 
> ...


  I'm not a fan of Karate, and have never trained in any style of the "Empty Hand" - so I wasn't really even thinking about Karate, when I made my observation. I was referring to JUDO, BJJ, WRESTLING and other Grappling styles. I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I'm not a fan of Karate, and have never trained in any style of the "Empty Hand" - so I wasn't really even thinking about Karate, when I made my observation. I was referring to JUDO, BJJ, WRESTLING and other Grappling styles. I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.


 

Ok, but again I must throw up the Red Flag...if you practice within the Rules, then you are going to do that in Real Life situations..Someone looking to hurt you for real isn't going to care about rules.  

I see all kinds of issues with MMA styles, they set themselves up for failure..laying your leg over someones face is just going to get you bitten...Not covering your groin is gonna get you popped..in the groin..etc etc..

Removing yourself from the rules is the only way you can truely become "Prepared" for real life situations.

Don't get me wrong, its all a good work out and a lot of MMA style fighters are is AWESOME shape...but right now we are talking about technique, intent, and fighting style.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Ok, but again I must throw up the Red Flag...if you practice within the Rules, then you are going to do that in Real Life situations..Someone looking to hurt you for real isn't going to care about rules.
> 
> I see all kinds of issues with MMA styles, they set themselves up for failure..laying your leg over someones face is just going to get you bitten...Not covering your groin is gonna get you popped..in the groin..etc etc..
> 
> ...


 I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...

... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.

One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...
> 
> ... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.
> 
> One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.


 

Over the years...yeah, I can see you being able to turn the Self- Defense on and off like that, but a student that has less than 10 years under his or her belt..shouldn't be fooled..Sport is different than Real Life situations...in your MANY years of Judo, your able to dictate the difference...a Novice...and by Novice I disreguard belt rank, should train to what they are planning on doing with it..either sport or Self defense.


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Indeed. Agree completely.


 





> Well, really worth something is open to interpretation. If they join for fitness and become fit, then their training has the worth that they sought. If they have their kids in the class in order for them to learn greater discipline and to help them develop as people, then again, the training has the worth that was sought.
> 
> Will it have any worth if the student enters open competition or should need to defend themselves? That is another question. Do they care if it has worth in that regard? Also another question.
> 
> Daniel


 
True, and you're right....that can be looked at, a few different ways.  But, on the other hand, should the instructor of the school, be calling what he does, self defense?  Instead of calling his school Joes school of Sd, Joes school of Kenpo, TKD, etc., should it be, Joes school of cardio fitness?  Again, you're right, this can be looked at many ways, but if someone walks in, looking for one thing, it isnt right to give them something else.  OTOH, nothing says that person couldnt walk out as soon as he sees what the school is like.

But, this IMO, kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier....if you have 90% of the pop. looking for A and 10% looking for B, when it comes down to the $$$, its possible the school owner may cave to the more watered down version to suit the majority.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Over the years...yeah, I can see you being able to turn the Self- Defense on and off like that, but a student that has less than 10 years under his or her belt..shouldn't be fooled..Sport is different than Real Life situations...in your MANY years of Judo, your able to dictate the difference...a Novice...and by Novice I disreguard belt rank, should train to what they are planning on doing with it..either sport or Self defense.


 I was NOT always a blackbelt with 40 years of Martial Arts experience - and even as a novice - I always knew the difference between "beating" and/or "beating up" my opponent... both of which I did, fairly frequently.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> *I've been practicing Judo and other forms of Grappling for over 40 years and always abided by whatever rules and regulations were applicable at the time...*
> 
> *... However, I also understand that there are NO rules in a real fight - NONE! - and there fore, I never got one mixed up with the other. I compete for Awards, Prizes, Championships, Titles, Recognition, etc. - without any intent to injure my opponent. I fight for BLOOD with the absolute intent of hurting, injuring, and destroying my opponent. Two very different things with very different objectives - where one should and must never be mistaken or confused with the other.*
> 
> One good slam by a Judoka or Wrestler, on a concrete pavement, fight over.


 
I say this about MMA fighters and get told that it's complete rubbish, that they fight with rules and a ref and can't get out of the rules mindset. I point out that I've seen MMA fighters get out of that mindset pdq but am then told 'well they are the exception'. It's something I find very frustrating that some cannot accept that you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I say you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.


 

:rules: I agree... Rules were made to be broken, anyways. I should know - I break'em all the time (just kidding).


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## tinker1 (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> .... I assure you - that a Champion Judo player, BJJ practitioner, Wrestler, etc. will have very little trouble defending him/her self, if any at all... provided NO weapons are used against them.



Respectively - REALLY not wanting to trash anyone's art here -  I would like to ask a question: How do you feel Judo or BJJ would do against multiple attackers?

Personally, I'm a striker my nature.  I've studied Judo (in college), done quite a bit with Hapkido, and even trained for a short time with the famous GM Wally Jay.  Still though, the rolling around on the floor grappling stuff never appealed to me.  It's not what I'm about.  No offense meant to anyone - grappling is just not my thing.

I'm a Biker - not a 1%er, but I hang out with those guys here and there.  I spend quite a lot of time in "Biker bars", and have therefore witnessed quite a few bar fights.  I would say that at least 90% of the time several people are involved.

A few months ago I was talking to the bouncer at the local watering hole - he's a BJJ guy (I think 2nd Dan).  He was telling me of an altercation he got into outside the bar, where one irate customer rushed him - he went to throw this guy but the guy grabbed him and they ended up going down in a heap together.  He said that then the customer's friends rushed in and began kicking him while he was down.  Fortunately for him several of the other bouncers ran in and broke things up.

So this has me wondering about how Judo and BJJ and other like arts would do against multiple attackers.  

For what it's worth - I think initially a TKD (striker) would do ok, as long as they kept moving and made it #1 priority to get out of there as quickly as possible.  Basically, deal with what you have to then beat feet out of there as fast as you can.  The thing with multiple attackers is that if you allow them enough time, stopping them is like trying to stop the incoming tide.  Sooner or later someone is going to pull a knife and stab you, or you're going to get grabbed by several guys at once... sooner or later it's going to get ugly for you.

Your turn.  How would Judo or BJJ do in this situation?


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It's something I find very frustrating that some cannot accept that you can fight in the rules when you want and without rules when you need to.


 

Ever here of "You are what you eat"?

You are what you train...if I train to pull a punch a million times..when it comes time to actually punch someone..I am most likely gonna pull it.

If you train to kick to the head...then..your going to kick to the head.

If you are wearing pads on your torso when you get hit in the gut, and your used to that...then you won't be able to handle it when your not wearing pads.

Its all about what you train to.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Ever here of "You are what you eat"?
> 
> You are what you train...if I train to pull a punch a million times..when it comes time to actually punch someone..I am most likely gonna pull it.
> 
> ...


 
Well of course all MMA fighters are so stupid they can't possible understand the difference between fighting in a comp and defending themselves. Der! Me thick, me MMA fighter.

Sigh, show me an MMA fighter who pulls his punches and who wears pads when fighting.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Well of course all MMA fighters are so stupid they can't possible understand the difference between fighting in a comp and defending themselves. Der! Me thick, me MMA fighter.
> 
> Sigh, show me an MMA fighter who pulls his punches and who wears pads when fighting.


 

I never said that MMA fighters pull there punches on the pads...but they do train to strike certain spots....which are all legal in the ring, unlike where you are working in Self Defense you can strike the neck, groin, bite...etc..do what you gotta do to survive.

You are what you train.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> I never said that MMA fighters pull there punches on the pads...but they do train to strike certain spots....which are all legal in the ring, unlike where you are working in Self Defense you can strike the neck, groin, bite...etc..do what you gotta do to survive.
> 
> You are what you train.


 
So in a fight your attackers hand is close to your mouth and you think an MMA fighter can't bite it because he's stuck in 'rules' mode? That's just ridiculous! 

Do you seriously mean to tell me that an MMA fighter goes into the cage/ring in a red mist and doesn't know where he/she is striking? that they don't think during a fight? it isn't all instictive you know, you have to have your wits about you both in the comp and in a SD situation. I've watched several MMA fighters switch from rules to no rules quite easily, in fact perhaps too easily for many. Personally I could bite, grab nuts and a whole lot of other things long before I ever trained MA.

It doesn't occur to you that a bloody good punch could finish a fight before you have to get that 'personal' with your attacker, a very good karateka told me his first move is to punch if that doesn't work, which is rarely he then goes on to the SD techniques. MMA fighters train to knock people out, to choke people out and to make them submit. Now taking your thought that MMA fighters are what they train, it would mean that they put a choke or arm bar on and keep it on until the guys dead or arms broken simply because theres no ref to tell him to stop ROFLMAO! 

I take it then when you train you actually do pull testicles off, bite people and strike to the neck? If you don't, remember, you are what you train and when you go to do it for real you will only do it the way you trained, which is to just go through the motions.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> - I would like to ask a question: How do you feel Judo or BJJ would do against multiple attackers?


 I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.


 
Ah the joys of a common language...a gang banger here is someone who takes part in a 'gang bang' ie group sex...on the other hand.....

How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!


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## tinker1 (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I was a gang-banger in my youth - so it's happened to me, on more than a few occations... and I've always walked away a winner, at least in my own mind. I don't want you to think that because Judo and BJJ are my styles of choice, that I don't strike as well. I do. So you see, I don't go into a street fight in my Judo GI and try to throw my opponent by IPPON and hold him in a pin. No sir. In fact, if I find any kind of weapon - rock, bottle, chair, stick, ANYTHING - I will use it to my advantage - and when I do use my Judo or BJJ - it will most certainly NOT be in a "biker bar" or anywhere else I will be attacked by multiples, once I've taken my opponent down - and usually out.


 
I thought as much.  Basically all of us will do SD in the same way - regardless of style and competition type etc.  We all do what needs to be done, then get the heck out.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> So in a fight your attackers hand is close to your mouth and you think an MMA fighter can't bite it because he's stuck in 'rules' mode? That's just ridiculous!
> 
> Do you seriously mean to tell me that an MMA fighter goes into the cage/ring in a red mist and doesn't know where he/she is striking? that they don't think during a fight? it isn't all instictive you know, you have to have your wits about you both in the comp and in a SD situation. I've watched several MMA fighters switch from rules to no rules quite easily, in fact perhaps too easily for many. Personally I could bite, grab nuts and a whole lot of other things long before I ever trained MA.
> 
> ...


 

First of all I just wanna say that your last part about pulling testicales mad eme laugh.

Secondly...My thing is, is that most fights don't start like a Sport senario does and there are so many more variables than the ring can provide.

I am NOT saying that MMA styles are no good..or you can't use it at all in a SD situation..i am simply saying that when you get into the mind set of sport..your going to use Techniques and styles you wouldn't necessarily use on the street...you would more than likely use the least force necessary to handle your opponet...what if he has friends...or a weapon, etc..your not going to administer techniques that provide a good show, or simply tire your opponet...you would go stright for the "kill" and finish it as soon as humanly possible....which SPORT MA does NOT provide. Fast Knockouts do happen in sports..but its rare.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> First of all I just wanna say that your last part about pulling testicales mad eme laugh.
> 
> Secondly...My thing is, is that most fights don't start like a Sport senario does and there are so many more variables than the ring can provide.
> 
> I am NOT saying that MMA styles are no good..or you can't use it at all in a SD situation..i am simply saying that when you get into the mind set of sport..your going to use Techniques and styles you wouldn't necessarily use on the street...you would more than likely use the least force necessary to handle your opponet...what if he has friends...or a weapon, etc..your not going to administer techniques that provide a good show, or simply tire your opponet...you would go stright for the "kill" and finish it as soon as humanly possible....which SPORT MA does NOT provide. Fast Knockouts do happen in sports..but its rare.


 
When people talk about MMA fighters they think the UFC type of pro fighter but in reality most MMA fighters are your everyday martial artists who fight now and again, maybe three or four times a year, there is no 'sport mindset' with them. Judochamp has already explained to you that he'll quite happily pick up a weapon, as would we all, training MMA doesn't stop the fighting instinct at all. What on earth makes you think MMA fighters would use minimum force? It's rather insulting too that you think fighters use techniques to 'put on a good show'! It's not pro wrestling you know and using techniques to tire out your opponent also tire you out so they don't get used. I think you know very little about what happens in an MMA fight. MMA fighters don't want the fight to go beyond the first round, they want KO's, they don't want it to go to the judges so they go for the 'kill'. Why go three, four or even five five minute rounds when you can end the fight in the first minute of the first round? Sure promoters hate it but that's tough, the fighters want short fights. At a fight night on Sunday, one of ours finished his fight in the second minute of the first round, short and sharp, that's the way it should be.

Tinker got it absolutely spot on, we all fight the same when it comes down to it. Well done that man!


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 15, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> I thought as much. Basically all of us will do SD in the same way - regardless of style and competition type etc. We all do what needs to be done, then get the heck out.


 

I agree with this 100%...do whatever you gotta do.

The arguement has nothing to do with that...

nor does it have anything to do with MMA specifically.

I am generalizing all Sport MA together, as not being good enough ALONE for SD.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> I agree with this 100%...do whatever you gotta do.
> 
> The arguement has nothing to do with that...
> 
> ...


 
But those that train for SD aren't going to be any better prepared if we go with your analogy of being what you train. You may laugh at my saying pulling testicles off but if you don't do that in training you are no different from those who pull their punches in training. You state we are what we train so unless you actually practice all those techniques for real ie biting, gouging, stiking into the groin you are doing exactly what you say 'sport's MAs are doing, it's 'watered down' which means really that 'sport' MA is as good as any SD.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!


  I train in Judo & BJJ in the dojo, and I also train in street fighting - on the streets of MIAMI... besides, I have two hands to grab with. One to grab my opponent and throw him outta the way and into tomorrow - and the other, to hold, throw, swing, shoot, etc. whatever weapon I happen to have in my hands, at the time. I can also run fairly fast, in case I have to make a quick get away.


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## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> I train in Judo & BJJ in the dojo, and I also train in street fighting - on the streets of MIAMI... besides, I have two hands to grab with. One to grab my opponent and throw him outta the way and into tomorrow - and the other, to hold, throw, swing, shoot, etc. whatever weapon I happen to have in my hands, at the time. I can also run fairly fast, in case I have to make a quick get away.


 
I wish you'd come on to MT earlier! Late last year several of my students went across to Florida for a holiday after deployment in Afghan ( the big theme places there give free entry to British service personnel, big thanks there), you would have enjoyed training with them! Not only are they squaddies who train MMA they are Scottish squaddies,whose fighting skills are honed on the streets of Glasgow, home of the Glasgow 'kiss' lol!

Our instructor is a head doorman in Newcastle another 'hard' city here, he's done the doors in London as well as being an ex squaddie himself. It's nuts to say because you do one style you can't defend yourself on the street, even people with no martial arts training can do that, admittedly with varying degrees of success but the fight is in inside us it's not just techniques.


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## tinker1 (Jun 15, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *Tez3*
> 
> 
> _
> How on earth can you grab a weapon when you train Judo and BJJ? Gasp! you can only do what you train!_



My father finished the war (WW2) as a Marine DI.  He said back then they were taught "Judo" for hand to hand combat.  I'm sure that his "combat Judo" differs from "sport or olympic Judo".  However just because an art _*includes*_ a sport aspect, that does not make it invalid for self defense.

I think the issue is emphasis - if virtually ALL of the training is about sport, then what is learned becomes less valid for self defense than a more traditional or well rounded training.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the joys of a common language...a gang banger here is someone who takes part in a 'gang bang' ie group sex...on the other hand.....


 
It's used that way here too.  um, or so I've heard...


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> the fight is in inside us it's not just techniques.


 It's NOT the size of the dog in the fight - It's the size of the fight in the dog! :btg:


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 15, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> If virtually ALL of the training is about sport, then what is learned becomes less valid for self defense than a more traditional or well rounded training.


 Exactomundo!!! - On the other hand - anything that is learned, has to be better than no knowledge at all. 

WOW! Did I just say that? The TKD guys must be getting to me.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 16, 2011)

Over all I belive that the way you will react during a a SD situation is going to relect the way you train.

And when you train, you must have the intent of doing whatever it takes to make it out alive and safe...and not be thinking about the best way to make your next point.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 16, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> when you train, you must have the intent of doing whatever it takes to make it out alive and safe...
> 
> ... and not be thinking about the best way to make your next point.


 Make it out alive and safe? From training??? :hmm:

Thinking about the best way to make your next point? Apparently, you didn't take any time to think, before making your last one... It makes NO sense - Sensei Payne - Absolutely NO disrespect intended. :angel:


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 16, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Make it out alive and safe? From training??? :hmm:
> 
> Make your next point? Apparently, you didn't take any time to think, before making your last one... It makes NO sense - Sensei Payne - Absolutely NO disrespect intended. :angel:


 

See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.

The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts.  Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.

Intent is what matters.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 16, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.
> 
> The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts. Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.
> 
> Intent is what matters.


 I'm sorry! I was thinking point - as in making a point. You were saying point - the kind you score. 

No wonder it made no sense to me.


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## tinker1 (Jun 16, 2011)

JudoChampion said:


> Exactomundo!!! - On the other hand - anything that is learned, has to be better than no knowledge at all.
> 
> WOW! Did I just say that? The TKD guys must be getting to me.




Less valid does not equate to invalid.


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## frank raud (Jun 16, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> See I don't train for sport...I train for Life Protection..and when I train, I am not thinking about how I can make points while sparring, and what not...I am thinking about how to keep myself safe, and effectively disable the aggressor.
> 
> The "Point" from the last post was that when your training, its the intent that counts. Are you intending to disable the aggressor as quickly as possible for life protection, or are you training to make the most points on the opponet in the ring.
> 
> Intent is what matters.


 
This concept works better when discussing the short comings of point sparring, however in judo the scoring system is a little different. Ippon is a perfect score, a throw which would disable or possibly kill if not done on the mats. A makikomi throw on concrete would be an absolute fight stopper, yet is perfectly legal in competition. Likewise Morote gari(in wrestling terminology a double leg pickup). Judo scoring does not equate to karate point sparring.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 16, 2011)

MJS said:


> True, and you're right....that can be looked at, a few different ways.  But, on the other hand, should the instructor of the school, be calling what he does, self defense?  Instead of calling his school Joes school of Sd, Joes school of Kenpo, TKD, etc., should it be, Joes school of cardio fitness?


Now I'm curious as to how many MA schools actually claim to be teaching self defense.  



MJS said:


> Again, you're right, this can be looked at many ways, but if someone walks in, looking for one thing, it isnt right to give them something else.  OTOH, nothing says that person couldnt walk out as soon as he sees what the school is like.


Indeed.  People need to do actual research on the product that they are intending to purchase.  The family & fitness crowd don't need to do as much because the majority of schools cater to them on some level.  

But if you want to be in a school that will take you to the next level as a tournament fighter or that will teach you to handle yourself in a mugging, you will need to do some research.



MJS said:


> But, this IMO, kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier....if you have 90% of the pop. looking for A and 10% looking for B, when it comes down to the $$$, its possible the school owner may cave to the more watered down version to suit the majority.


Most schools depend on income to stay open.  That is why most schools that I visit seem to have a lot of the same trappings: fitness programs, black belt clubs, after school programs, summer camps, over ten belts, etc.  Not saying that these things are bad, but if they _aren't_ what you're looking for, then you need to put the time and energy into finding what *are* looking for.

Daniel


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 17, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> Less valid does not equate to invalid.


 No it doesn't. Less valid equates to "WATERED DOWN". - Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 20, 2011)

frank raud said:


> This concept works better when discussing the short comings of point sparring, however in judo the scoring system is a little different. Ippon is a perfect score, a throw which would disable or possibly kill if not done on the mats. A makikomi throw on concrete would be an absolute fight stopper, yet is perfectly legal in competition. Likewise Morote gari(in wrestling terminology a double leg pickup). Judo scoring does not equate to karate point sparring.


 

The question now is..when in Judo Compititions...are you throwing punches and kicks too?  If not, its not a great way to gage actual SD capabilities.


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## chinto (Jun 20, 2011)

Ok I train in two types of Okinawan karate.  they both train for SD, but also will teach you the sport/sparing version to.  

I think some arts, like Okinawan Karate, and Samurai jujitsu and silat and others are more optimized to teach you to survive.  That said, I understand in Kodokan judo they add the chokes and strikes and other techniques back that were taken out for sport starting at shodan level.  ( there are judoka here who can tell you and me both if this information is mistaken. )  
As to TKD, well I have seen a lot of different things called that. some are what they teach the ROK Rangers and ROK Marines. ( folks they do not train for sport in those formations! only for survival.)  Like wise, the US army and Marines were told to tone down their hand to hand combat. this has resulted as I understand it to them having added a lot of sport versions of judo and bjj techniques to their curricula to be politically correct. That is not to say that some of them are not trained in other arts to. Most of the Special Operations people train in one art or other on their own as well.

I think as long as the tools and mindset have been taught that will let you lose the scruples and know the vital targets most will be able to survive most things... and if not take a few with them...  

Some times that is all you can do, take as many with you as you can so the rest think twice next time.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 20, 2011)

chinto said:


> I think some arts, like Okinawan Karate, and Samurai jujitsu and silat and others are more optimized to teach you to survive. That said, I understand in Kodokan judo they add the chokes and strikes and other techniques back that were taken out for sport starting at shodan level. ( there are judoka here who can tell you and me both if this information is mistaken. )
> 
> 
> As to TKD, well I have seen a lot of different things called that. some are what they teach the ROK Rangers and ROK Marines. ( folks they do not train for sport in those formations! only for survival.) Like wise, the US army and Marines were told to tone down their hand to hand combat. this has resulted as I understand it to them having added a lot of sport versions of judo and bjj techniques to their curricula to be politically correct. That is not to say that some of them are not trained in other arts to. Most of the Special Operations people train in one art or other on their own as well.
> ...


 Some Judoka's will train til eternity and never throw a punch or kick during his entire career, while some chokes, locks, bars, throws, etc - are never taught at all - therefore never learned, practiced or excecuted. 

As for TKD - I've been told here, that there are several styles of TKD - Hard-Core, Traditional, Sport, Olympic - some are quite effective - some are less so. I believe the organization to which a school belongs to, may be the difference between learning a M/A style - and NOT learning much, in the ways of M/A, at all.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 20, 2011)

Regardless of the arena I think most sports fighters would beat most self defense fighters. Because they train for harder contact, have a generally higher level of overall fitness, and regularly use their techniques against fully resisting opponents. In the street or the ring, I think _as a whole_, sport fighters are better prepared for combat.

That being said, a self defense fighter can train with hard contact, improve their fitness, and spar against fully resisting opponents. If they do, they will have the edge because they have a wider variety of more devastating techniques. Yes, a sports fighter can strike to vulnerable targets, practice impact grappling, and use weapons. But if they don't train to, regularly, they won't have the same level of technical proficiency as someone who does.

One isn't better than the other. They are different methodologies. And there are MMA fighters and Boxers and Olympic style TKD fighters that can definitely kick my tail. But their training doesn't generally take into account many of the things that we regularly discuss or practice, including the legal ramifications of self defense and using weapons, training against multiple opponents, irregular combat environments based on lighting, terrain, and obstructions, and the incorporation of environmental weapons into your techniques. I don't know what considerations sports fighters train for that I don't, because I don't train for sports competition.

This argument is so tired. Somebody posted a video of an eight year old girl doing an XMA style sword dance at a karate tournament. That isn't the kind of karate I do either, but it doesn't make it invalid. There are a lot of different ways to train, and they are _specifically meant_ for different environments.

The sports fighter may be effective in the street, but he doesn't train for it.

The street fighter may be effective in the ring, but he doesn't train for it.

Why is that so offensive to people on both sides of that coin? It doesn't make any of us, in either camp, more or less capable with _what we do_. It means we do it for different reasons, with different methods, and different desired goals.

Can an MMA fighter win a street fight? Sure. Can a street fighter win an MMA competition? Sure. Because in the end it has a lot more to do with the individual fighter and the competition he's facing then the style he practices. How you train matters. Why you train matters. Maybe some grapplers don't strike. Maybe some strikers don't grapple. But that doesn't make one better than the other. Go tell Iron Mike that his techniques are crap because he doesn't train for self defense. Personally, even today, I'm not interested in making that mistake. By the same token, there are plenty of killers working for governments all over the world who are plenty dangerous without ever having stepped into the square circle.

If you like what _you _do, keep doing it. But you're never going to get very far telling other people that what _they _do is garbage. You're just wasting valuable training time.


-Rob


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## frank raud (Jun 20, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> The question now is..when in Judo Compititions...are you throwing punches and kicks too? If not, its not a great way to gage actual SD capabilities.


Because in point sparring they are doing throws? The ruleset of judo doesn't allow punches, if that is what you want, try sport jiu jitsu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus&feature=related


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 21, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Because in point sparring they are doing throws? The ruleset of judo doesn't allow punches, if that is what you want, try sport jiu jitsu
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5vlLlIinus&feature=related


 

My point is, that going off any sort of point based system is not a good way to learn *good *SD


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## MJS (Jun 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now I'm curious as to how many MA schools actually claim to be teaching self defense.


 
Fortunately, there are quite a few that actually teach quality SD.   As I've said, what I consider the side benefits, ie: weight loss, meeting new people, etc, are a given.  But, whats sad, is when its more of a fitness club yet its billed as teaching SD.  IMO, SD is not just the verbal defusion, but the techs as well.  




> Indeed. People need to do actual research on the product that they are intending to purchase. The family & fitness crowd don't need to do as much because the majority of schools cater to them on some level.
> 
> But if you want to be in a school that will take you to the next level as a tournament fighter or that will teach you to handle yourself in a mugging, you will need to do some research.


 
Agreed, research is key, IMHO.  And again, you're also correct with what you said about the fitness crowd.  




> Most schools depend on income to stay open. That is why most schools that I visit seem to have a lot of the same trappings: fitness programs, black belt clubs, after school programs, summer camps, over ten belts, etc. Not saying that these things are bad, but if they _aren't_ what you're looking for, then you need to put the time and energy into finding what *are* looking for.
> 
> Daniel


 
True.


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## frank raud (Jun 21, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> My point is, that going off any sort of point based system is not a good way to learn *good *SD


 

Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.


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## tinker1 (Jun 21, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.



Oh I agree completely.  The best way I've found to train for REAL self defense is to hit the bars.. seek out a large group of 1% Bikers, then start running your mouth.

Great training experience.

But don't send me your hospital bills.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 22, 2011)

frank raud said:


> Most martial arts are not really that great a way to learn Sd. The pre-fight conflict, the interview section, pre-assault cues, spatial awareness and other areas are left out completely or just given lip services in most schools. Teaching someone how to defend themselves once a fight has already physically started is kind of ironic.


 

A lot of schools have classes on how to handle bullies,and being self aware and aware of your surroundings.

Life protection is the core of Ryukyu Kempo. Not Points.


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## frank raud (Jun 22, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> A lot of schools have classes on how to handle bullies,and being self aware and aware of your surroundings.
> 
> Life protection is the core of Ryukyu Kempo. Not Points.


 
Well there's no doubt your art is awesome. I only hope that I can have an opportunity to train in such a system. Unfortunately it is not available in my area, so I must make do with what I can. And having been involved in martial arts longer than you have been living, I also have a fair idea of what is out there and being offered. Quite simply, most of it falls dramatically short of GOOD SD.  I say this having been exposed to teachers of multiple styles from across North America and such countries as England, France, Germany, Norway, Russia and many more.


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## frank raud (Jun 22, 2011)

Sensei Payne, does your club allow visitors or drop-ins? I will be in Louisville in early july, if my schedule permits, I would like to visit, if that is possible.


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## Champ-Pain (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm not trying to put down any particular style - Judo, for example, although it has been watered down - by the banning and elimination of some techniques that are no longer legal in competition, no longer taught or practiced at the dojo, and no longer attempted or excecuted in real life... it's still considered effective in a "self defense" situation - "fight", by most standards. IMHO, TKD does NOT have that reputation, with those who train in other styles... and only TKD practitioners have and/or will argue that assumption.


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## Champ-Pain (Jul 18, 2011)

I just want to make a point on watered down Judo: This past weekend - at the jr US Open - a "Team Champion" member - a pure wrestler with only 4 judo practices of 1 and a half hours each - won the Gold medal, defeating a team mate, in the final... a team mate, who has been practicing Judo and competing at high level events for 3 years. What does that say to you? 

It tells me that the kid is a stud - or, most likely - Judo needs to step up. Judo needs athletes from other styles - to come into a Judo tournament, without much or any experience and beat up on the real Judokas - as much as a wrestling meet needs Gi wearing Judokas - stepping in and beating up on the wrestlers... Neither one should ever happen - and yes, I know it does.


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## Lee Mainprize (Aug 11, 2011)

I agree most people are training for themselves today not for combat...however I think most people would be very disappointed if their martial arts let them down in a street fight.

Unless it happens most will not question this issue.


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## Gentle Fist (May 9, 2012)

My judo club does all of the throws, locks, holds and chokes...   We also have a Gracie BB on staff who helps enhance our newaza game...   But I do agree that many clubs are leaving out a lot of the moves that made judo such a force a 100 years ago!  I truly believe that judo is one of the most complete martial arts when done the way it was intended.


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## seasoned (May 9, 2012)

fistlaw720 said:


> My judo club does all of the throws, locks, holds and chokes...   We also have a Gracie BB on staff who helps enhance our newaza game...   But I do agree that many clubs are leaving out a lot of the moves that made judo such a force a 100 years ago!  I truly believe that judo is one of the most complete martial arts when done the way it was intended.



http://www.kanosociety.org/about.htm
A little something along the lines of what you're talking about, perhaps...........


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## Gentle Fist (May 9, 2012)

seasoned said:


> http://www.kanosociety.org/about.htm
> A little something along the lines of what you're talking about, perhaps...........



Cool never seen that page, thanks!


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## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

Champ-Pain said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


just to make it an Olympic sport? Not just my opinion but that of GGM's and SGM's in 2002 my GM in disscust over the loss of use of hands said they should just call it Kwon Do and while he worked tirelessly most of his life to see TKD as an Olympic sport I think he was in the end disapointed with the end result. I would have to say it was commercialization for profit to a larger degree but that was also the motivation behind the Olympic persuit and has allowed so many abuses not just TKD but through out


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## Kinghercules (May 9, 2012)

Wow....who dug up this joint?
I aint even gotta go thru the fourm to know that most of the post on here are sayin (in a whinnying ***** voice)  "Well its a different time,"  "Not everybody trains to fight," "Its not about self defense," "For some ppl its a hobby and you should respect that."
LOL!


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2012)

Whinnying?  perhaps they are just a little hoarse?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 10, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> just to make it an Olympic sport? Not just my opinion but that of GGM's and SGM's in 2002 *my GM in disscust over the loss of use of hands said they should just call it Kwon Do* and while he worked tirelessly most of his life to see TKD as an Olympic sport I think he was in the end disapointed with the end result. I would have to say it was commercialization for profit to a larger degree but that was also the motivation behind the Olympic persuit and has allowed so many abuses not just TKD but through out


Odd that he would suggest kwon do due to the restrictions on hand techniques.  Wouldn't he mean 'tae do', as kwon is the fist?


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 10, 2012)

Kinghercules said:


> Wow....who dug up this joint?
> I aint even gotta go thru the fourm to know that most of the post on here are sayin (in a whinnying ***** voice)  "Well its a different time,"  "Not everybody trains to fight," "Its not about self defense," "For some ppl its a hobby and you should respect that."
> LOL!


Actually, I don't see any whining.  I do see a lot of uninformed statements and generalizations made about arts that the posters in question do not practice and I see a lot of attempts to inject correct information into the topic.  You may consider that whining, but many of your posts are uninformed and often borderline trolling.

Your words in quotes above are a good example of this: they add nothing of value to the topic and only serve to inflame.


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## Master Dan (May 10, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Odd that he would suggest kwon do due to the restrictions on hand techniques.  Wouldn't he mean 'tae do', as kwon is the fist?


SGM had his reasons for stating it that way but his intentions were specific not restrictions but the total lack of effective use of hands as an intergral part of sparring and being realted to and a student of Mas Oyama who he seemed to revere as to his power of hand use including SGM was one of the most powerful in use of hands I have personally trained with. It was also the lack of judges giving credit for use of hands but in fact if people had been train hands properly when a person is nocked down scoring credit becomes a much easier issue.


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## ETinCYQX (May 10, 2012)

The bottom line is you can be as much of a hardass as you want and brag about all the street fights you've been in as much as you want, there's no martial art in beating up thugs. Period.


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## Gentle Fist (May 10, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> The bottom line is you can be as much of a hardass as you want and brag about all the street fights you've been in as much as you want, there's no martial art in beating up thugs. Period.




 Um... 

REX-WON-DO...  You think someone wants to get kicked in the side of the head by these bad boys???  Forgetta about it!!!


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## Josh Oakley (May 10, 2012)

Rex-kwon-do has nothing on Ameri-Do-Te.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## Chris Parker (May 11, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> SGM had his reasons for stating it that way but his intentions were specific not restrictions but the total lack of effective use of hands as an intergral part of sparring and being realted to and a student of Mas Oyama who he seemed to revere as to his power of hand use including SGM was one of the most powerful in use of hands I have personally trained with. It was also the lack of judges giving credit for use of hands but in fact if people had been train hands properly when a person is nocked down scoring credit becomes a much easier issue.



Huh? If he was lamenting the lack of hand-work in TKD, the lack of focus on hands in scoring bouts in TKD etc, why would he want it called "Kwon Do"? That would mean "Way of the Fist", meaning nothing but hands.... that's what Daniel was saying, Dan. You're not making much sense....


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## softstylist (May 11, 2012)

Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large. Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form. In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.

(When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)


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## Chris Parker (May 12, 2012)

softstylist said:


> Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large.



Just a counter observation, then.

To begin with, I don't know that I'd say that Judo is a "style synthesized from Jujutsu", as it wasn't. It was a new system developed to express the ideals of Kano Jigoro, with the methods coming from a couple of Jujutsu systems, most notably Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu, rather than just "from Jujutsu". In a very real way, Judo is Jujutsu, just another form of it.

I also wouldn't necessarily say that it's "watered down"... but we'll cover that.



softstylist said:


> Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form.



Firstly, the kata should be learnt by all the students of Judo, especially as they raise in rank (although it's typically only the more senior that pay it much attention, especially when dealing with things like the Koshiki no Kata), so they should all be able to do some of the kata. The Nage no Kata should be standard, for Olympic competitors or not. That said, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "the kata of the original form"... the Koshiki no Kata is pretty much a direct transplant from Kito Ryu, the Kime no Kata is still taught, as is the Nage no Kata... which don't you think was there in "the original form"?

Here is the Kito Ryu performing Koshiki no Kata:





Followed by modern Judoka performing the Koshiki no Kata:





And, for comparison, if we're talking "the original form", here's Kano Sensei demonstrating it....:







softstylist said:


> In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.



Well, was Kito Ryu still a "form of combat", looking at the clips above? Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu was also said to be less combative than it used to be by Kano's time (but, as with everything there, you need to know which line of the Ryu you were talking about...), to the degree that Kano was wanting to develop Judo to aid in physical fitness. He'd hardly have wanted to do that if such things were there for him in his previous arts...

Then again, Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu can be a lot of fun, and done pretty hard!





But when it all comes down to it, has Judo really been "watered down"? Honestly, I'd say no. What it has done is moved into it's own niche, finding and focusing on it's own specialities, which is focused on randori and shiai, as well as competitive usage. I personally don't think that that's "watering down", I think it's specializing. In order to get very good at one thing, other things need to go by the wayside, and when it comes to working within the changing ruleset of Judo competition as it's developed, that has lead to a higher degree of specialization, really.



softstylist said:


> (When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)



Hmm, I'm not sure I get what you meant there... can you expand on that?


----------



## frank raud (May 12, 2012)

softstylist said:


> Just as an observation judo itself is a style synthesised from jujutsu and in that origininal form was watered down so that it could be practisd as a form of self development by the general public at large. Its inclusion into the olympics has seen a dilution even further over the years to what you see practised today with many people unable to demonstrate the kata of the original form. In this timeline It has gone from its parent art which was a form of combat to another form where it is used to improve the physical well being of the practioner (but still with self defence contained within its many forms eg: Kata) to the judo practised in the olympics where training is done for winning tournaments and not much else.
> 
> (When i mention self defence here I mean as deliberate intent of the training involved on a day to day basis)



Whether judo is a watered down version of jiu jutsu might be up for debate, what Kano did do was formulate a system where techniques could be practiced and full speed and strength with less concern for being crippled by training.Many people would consider that an improvement. The self defense aspects of judo have always been practiced in kata. If people today do not know the katas of judo, it is an issue with their NGB, as the kata still exists and are requirements for advancements in many countries. I needed to know the first part of the nage-no-kata for my green belt, as an example.


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## Gentle Fist (May 12, 2012)

frank raud said:


> Whether judo is a watered down version of jiu jutsu might be up for debate, what Kano did do was formulate a system where techniques could be practiced and full speed and strength with less concern for being crippled by training.Many people would consider that an improvement. The self defense aspects of judo have always been practiced in kata. If people today do not know the katas of judo, it is an issue with their NGB, as the kata still exists and are requirements for advancements in many countries. *I needed to know the first part of the nage-no-kata for my green belt*, as an example.



Wow, you don't need that form until testing for Nidan in USJA!  Some require the first half for Shodan grade...


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## Balrog (May 16, 2012)

Champ-Pain said:


> 2 Points I'd like to make in reponse to some possible misunderstanding.
> 
> 1) I don't and never had the intent of disrespecting any athlete of any sport - only the sport itself is the object of my criticism and only because of the watering down effect. I completely understand how hard they train and how much discipline and sacrafice they put forward, in order to make it to the upper level, the "Olympics". I've never questioned that fact.
> 
> 2) In my area, I see alot of ATA (American TKD Association) and Total M/A (Bally Fitness Centers) - I'm sorry, but it's a freakin' joke! My dojo is located side by side to a Bally, and I see these 7, 8, 9 y/o, walking around with brown and black belts. I just nod my head and chuckle. They can't even walk without tripping over themselves - and they're wearing such high ranks - give me a break! - Great marketing though, lots of students - many more than in my sport (Judo). How do they do it?


Really?  I don't suppose that it ever occurred to you that they earned their ranks, did it?

Yeah, we've got schools in the ATA that are belt factories.  We are no different from any other style/organization in that aspect; bad business practices override quality teaching.  But there are a whole lot more instructors concerned with quality teaching than there are bad apples in the barrel.  Unfortunately, it only takes one person who knows nothing about the training curriculum or standards of another style, and who operates with an attitude that "my way is superior", to badmouth an entire organization.  

No style is perfect.  No style is better than another.  It's not the martial art, it's the martial artist that makes the difference.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 16, 2012)

To all of you who got your noses out of joint when I said that DJinx had  a valid point in his thread about non-TKDists thrashing on the art: 

Posts like *this*: 


Champ-Pain said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


are _why_ I said that he had a valid point.  

While this is in the general arts section, the OP picked out taekwondo specifically (along with judo).  And if you read through the thread, and catch that the OP has changed his username since posting this, you will see that he knows nothing about the art and admits as much.

Which brings me back to... I think DJinx has a valid point, and people who post things like this are the "masses" that he was addressing.


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## Balrog (May 17, 2012)

Ok, let me address this part of his post:


> Do you agree with the watering down of Martial Arts that were originally  founded, taught and trained to be used in war - to injure and kill  others - just to make it an Olympic sport?
> 
> I do realize that there is a difference between sport and the original  motive of Martial Arts training, but why take away so much stuff that  actually works in real life?


What has been "taken away that  actually works in real life"?  Do we train with nothing but things that don't work?  I don't think so.

For example:  a well placed side kick that blows out an attacker's knee and puts him down on the ground is just as effective in a parking lot as it is on a battlefield.  And the confidence and knowledge of when and how to use that kick does not come from training with stuff that doesn't work.  

Yes, rules about contact (or lack thereof) are present in the sport sparring aspect of Taekwondo.  They have to be, for obvious reasons.  But does that mean that schools don't have heavy bags or Redman suits where students can practice full power techniques, yet not injure a fellow student?

Saying that TKD and Judo are watered-down and useless is painting with a very broad brush, and usually, those kind of brush strokes are way off target.


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## Denoaikido (Nov 21, 2022)

I see a lot of people don't even like  taekwondo ,but to me it's pretty effective when  trained right even the sport version is pretty good because they still pressure test and spar even though they don't hit to the face I mean BJJ guys just wrestle and do  submissions and we call that better than actually start from standing up sparring  the fight in a real fight starts on the feet .... How many guys are going to pull guard and do a  omanari roll or drop down for leg lock sure it may work but most tkd teaches pretty good fundamentals for self defense and they teach hits to the face just not many schools pressure test hits to the face just like bjj doesn't practices strikes many arts are watered down one could say but I just think ppl learned in order to keep healthy students you have to there for train safety but also even MMA got watered down with all it's rule sets and that's what ussally waters  most arts down is the rule factors of competition and how ppl train according to them


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> I see a lot of people don't even like  taekwondo ,but to me it's pretty effective when  trained right even the sport version is pretty good because they still pressure test and spar even though they don't hit to the face


I agree. 


Denoaikido said:


> I mean BJJ guys just wrestle and do  submissions and we call that better than actually start from standing up sparring  the fight in a real fight starts on the feet .... How many guys are going to pull guard and do a  omanari roll or drop down for leg lock sure it may work


Not sure if you are aware, but BJJ sport starts in standup, and when trained most places train standup as well.


Denoaikido said:


> but most tkd teaches pretty good fundamentals for self defense and they teach hits to the face just not many schools pressure test hits to the face just like bjj doesn't practices strikes many arts are watered down one could say but I just think ppl learned in order to keep healthy students you have to there for train safety


While I don't disagree with this per se, i do want to point out that both are flawed if your goal is to teach complete self-defense with just that, by your logic. If BJJ not practicing strikes is an issue, then TKD (mostly) not doing randori or rolling is also an issue. Both of which can be done safely.


Denoaikido said:


> but also even MMA got watered down with all it's rule sets and that's what ussally waters  most arts down is the rule factors of competition and how ppl train according to them


Which rules exactly do you think have watered down MMA? And watered down compared to what?


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## Denoaikido (Nov 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I agree.
> 
> Not sure if you are aware, but BJJ sport starts in standup, and when trained most places train standup as well.
> 
> ...


If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and  ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no  you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees  now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 21, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> But most bjj places train starting on there knees  now,


Where do you get that from? Some bjj places do this I'm sure, but my experience is it's not the norm. 


Denoaikido said:


> the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training


I'd argue that those rules actually prevent it from being watered down. Without those rules, there's no way to train with resistance, and you get people who learn stuff and never learn how to apply it.
*Note, with the above, I'm referring to MMA as a style, not UFC specific competitions. The competitions I agreed were made to be more regulated, mostly so that they were not banned from the US.


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## Steve (Nov 21, 2022)

When I saw the title to this thread pop back up, I thought at first it was about hydration.


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Which rules exactly do you think have watered down MMA? And watered down compared to what?



Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.


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## Steve (Nov 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.


And pankration, I hear.


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## Denoaikido (Nov 21, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Watered down from NHB and Vale tudo.


Agreed


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## Denoaikido (Nov 21, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> Agreed


This also makes school gyms clubs train towards the rules esp if they are competing


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## Steve (Nov 21, 2022)

For what it's worth, I'd rather train in a sport that is "watered down" but applies skills in some context than a style that purports to be complete but doesn't apply skills in any context.

It's relatively easy to build on competition without crosstraining (though that's also a viable way to go), even if that competition is restrictive. For example, if you're a watered down TKD guy looking to be more well rounded, you could expand your skill set by training for and competing in any number of full contact venues.  

If you're a judoka looking to expand your skill set, you could test your judo skills in BJJ tournaments.  You could try no-gi tournaments.  You could find an MMA open mat to attend. 

The issue isn't any one style or any one ruleset.  It's over specialization that causes issues.  

Even if someone is hyper specialized, like a Ryan Hall, you can choose to test yourself outside of your specialization and round out those skills.  

But if you don't ever test your skills or apply them outside of training, you aren't even getting to square one.  That to me is watered down, regardless of the curriculum.


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## tkdroamer (Nov 24, 2022)

Steve said:


> For what it's worth, I'd rather train in a sport that is "watered down" but applies skills in some context than a style that purports to be complete but doesn't apply skills in any context.
> 
> It's relatively easy to build on competition without crosstraining (though that's also a viable way to go), even if that competition is restrictive. For example, if you're a watered down TKD guy looking to be more well rounded, you could expand your skill set by training for and competing in any number of full contact venues.
> 
> ...





Steve said:


> The issue isn't any one style or any one ruleset. It's over specialization that causes issues.


Nail on the head.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 25, 2022)

Steve said:


> When I saw the title to this thread pop back up, I thought at first it was about hydration.


@Dirty Dog has a vid on him doing watered down martial arts. But strangely, it was pretty deep too!


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2022)

These are the threads I never truly understand.  I train.  The style I train in happens to be Isshinryu.  Is it 'traditional'?  It is 'watered down'?  Is it 'valueless' or 'not effective on the street'?  I don't know.  I don't really care.  That's not why I train.  

And this tends to upset folks too.  How could I not care if my art is useful in the octagon?  How could I not care if my art doesn't give me all the awesome self-defense moves?  How dare I train in something for the joy of training and NOT because I want to be a champion of this or that, or a serious street-level badass?

I couldn't tell you, my friends.  I like Isshinryu.  You can think it's great, you can think it sucks.  You can think it doesn't work on the street.  You can think it won't work in the octagon.  Fine with me.  Do you know how much it affects my daily life what you think of my or any art?  Not at all, that's how much.

Week after week, I go to the dojo and see my dojo family, my dear friends.  We work out together.  We practice what we were taught, trying to adhere to the way the founder taught it.  And that's all.

And I don't understand why that's not enough.   I don't WANT to compete.  I don't WANT to be an MMA champion.  I don't plan to get into situations where I have to kill six guys who are armed with pythons and deadly blow guns in a dark alley while disguised as nuns.  I trust that my skills will assist me if I need them outside the dojo.  And that is entirely good enough for me.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 25, 2022)

Amen Bill.

This is such a dead horse.  Undead, even, it keeps coming back.

This is yet again the failure of the dualistic "works/doesn't work".

Like everything in nature there is a spectrum from "works in class against no resistance" to "you just got KTFO".  Competitors train towards that end of the spectrum, but many more in the other direction or just end up in the middle.. 

And that's fine for the most part ...gosh how many kids will learn some karate or TKD and then just move on to things like football and lacrosse or wrestling...and that's great.  Even if they claim they're teaching deadly hand to hand but no students spar or compete...who cares?  Let them go be braggadocios.

When people who train full contact start to laugh at or dismiss everyone else, it kinda shows not that things like MMA are bad, but it shows those people just don't have the brainpower to understand why a middle aged guy might pick their butt up and get into a cardio kickboxing class, any Ryu that doesn't push hard kumite, etc.  

People should train how they want, and if they get a chip on their shoulder from a karate black belt with no sparring and start some beef, nature will work its magic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> People should train how they want, and if they get a chip on their shoulder from a karate black belt with no sparring and start some beef, nature will work its magic.


And sometimes young fit killers find out that old men are too tired and sore to be fancy, so we just rupture eardrums, gouge eyes, wreck knee or ankle joints, kick snarglies, and go home to watch Wheel of Fortune.


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## Steve (Nov 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And sometimes young fit killers find out that old men are too tired and sore to be fancy, so we just rupture eardrums, gouge eyes, wreck knee or ankle joints, kick snarglies, and go home to watch Wheel of Fortune.


You've done those things?  Brutal.


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## harlan (Nov 25, 2022)

Am aside...is there an old folks room here abouts? Cause I'd love to sit and listen to some of your yarns. LOL.

Just passing through and enjoyed the posts. Happy thanksgiving!   Nice to see some of you old timers still kicking butt.


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## drop bear (Nov 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> These are the threads I never truly understand.  I train.  The style I train in happens to be Isshinryu.  Is it 'traditional'?  It is 'watered down'?  Is it 'valueless' or 'not effective on the street'?  I don't know.  I don't really care.  That's not why I train.
> 
> And this tends to upset folks too.  How could I not care if my art is useful in the octagon?  How could I not care if my art doesn't give me all the awesome self-defense moves?  How dare I train in something for the joy of training and NOT because I want to be a champion of this or that, or a serious street-level badass?
> 
> ...



Active ignoring isn't ignoring. It is making a statement.


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and  ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no  you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees  now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training



When you say MMA rules you mean UFC rules, promoters can, in the UK and most of Europe use the rules they want. Fighters agree and fight, or disagree and don't,. Some promotions use the UFC, saved them thinking up their own but it's up to them.
BJJ, we start standing.


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## harlan (Nov 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Active ignoring isn't ignoring. It is making a statement.


But a quiet statement...and one has to have the ears to hear. LOL


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## GojuTommy (Nov 26, 2022)

Champ-Pain said:


> I mean no disrespect to anyone with my following observation:
> 
> Traditional TKD and JUDO are two styles which have been watered down by taking away and eliminating some of the techniqes that made them so effective in the first place... and it was done to make them Olympic sports. Olympic TKD is a joke, more of a dance than a M/A style - and - JUDO, although to a far lesser extent, has eliminated many chokes (guillotine and all other reverse chokes), shoulder locks, leg locks and even some throwing techniques. BLAH!
> 
> ...


The Greeks were mighty warriors, and the Greeks created the Olympics.
The original sports of the Olympics were all a martial art of some sort. Competition leads to growth.

The Olympics has nothing to do with martial arts being watered down. That’s a result of society.

The modern Olympics does not create rules for Olympic sports, they utilize rules from established international competition formats.

Are there issues with ‘watering down’? Sure, does sport with rules hurt martial arts? No.
The rules you see in MMA, MT, KB, etc will largely be along the lines of how ‘real’ martial arts train any way, because no one is actually intentionally jamming fingers into other peoples’ eyes during training. Same for biting, and groin shots.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 26, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> If you're asking me three arts I just said are watered down in most gyms so MMA you can't kick people a lot of times when they're down and  ufc anyways no 12 to 6 elbows no headbuts no fish hooks no  you know there's a lot of rules and any kind of sport that comes from martial arts is like this now weather that's how you train well? But most bjj places train starting on there knees  now,the first UFC's those were the best to watch it was style verse style and barely any rules at all watch some of them old ufcs those are fun to watch but basically every sport has to have rules for the safety of the combatants and a lot of schools that's their same philosophy to keep students they have to have safe training


When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?

Someone who trains for full contact sport will be better suited to defending themselves than someone who trains for ‘self defense’ with a bunch of techniques they’ve never actually done to another person or experienced themselves.

Bas Rutten summed it up pretty well in an interview. He was relaying a story about how someone at a seminar he was doing said that if they put him in an armbar they’d just bite his calf to get out. Bas responded, then I’ll break your arm.
Who do you think wins that trade off.
Later in the story the same person said if he was in a rear naked choke he’d gouge Bas’ eyes. Bas said he’s close his eyes and crank the choke harder. (He’s presumably also be pulling his head back and lifting his chin to pull the eyes away from where they can be easily scratched at.)
Again who do you think would win that trade?


----------



## Denoaikido (Nov 27, 2022)

I meant most schools practice starting in combat position not all do this but most do


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?


Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.

Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.

Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth.  There are other holes to consider.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.
> 
> Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.
> 
> Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth.  There are other holes to consider.


Most banned techniques aren’t banned because they’re devastating, and will end a fight.
They’re often banned because they don’t end fights, but have a high likelihood of degrading someone’s quality of life over many exposures.

Fish hooking doesn’t destroy the jaw. Holy hell where’d you hear that?

I’d love to see your source supporting the idea that it’s very effective

A fighter using a fish hook, and losing…so devastating.









						Poirier claims Chandler 'fish-hooked' him at UFC 281 in illegal move
					

Dustin Poirier confronted Michael Chandler about illegally 'fish-hooking' him after their UFC 281 clash.  'Diamond' won a hugely entertaining bout but appeared irate in the aftermath.



					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Oh another example of a fish hook being useless








						5 times UFC fighters used questionable techniques to their advantage in the octagon
					

Although they’re sometimes seen as unavoidable, punches to the back of the head are an outlawed technique in the UFC due to the excess damage they can do to a fighter taking them.




					www.sportskeeda.com
				




As far as I’m aware when currently banned techniques were used in the early UFCs they made no apparent difference in the outcome of the fight.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Most banned techniques aren’t banned because they’re devastating, and will end a fight.
> They’re often banned because they don’t end fights, but have a high likelihood of degrading someone’s quality of life over many exposures.
> 
> Fish hooking doesn’t destroy the jaw. Holy hell where’d you hear that?
> ...


Techniques are banned because they often cause serious injury. Which is not that goal of MMA competition.  Full stop.

What's so hard to understand?  You don't think you can easily separate someone's jaw by hooking fingers in their mouth and separating their mandible?  That's all soft tissue.  Hard to fight when there are fingers shoved down your throat, dude.

Ever had an oil check?  My guess is no.  That's a type of fish hook, highly effective in wrestling, totes illegal, and used all the time to gain unfair advantages.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

Super effective.  Super illegal.

Fish hooks.

Refs miss them all the time, too, as seen here.









						The Fish Hook
					

No description provided




					www.flowrestling.org


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## drop bear (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Er...fish hooking is very effective in fighting, and is great for permanently destroying the jaw/face/skull.
> 
> Hence why its illegal in every contact sport.
> 
> Sometimes the hook doesn't even have to hit the mouth.  There are other holes to consider.



Depending how you do it. 

I have seen it done effectively as a defence to a bite. And the guy pinched the dudes cheek thumb and forefinger. And that was how they did it in whatever crap hole he grew up in. It was like a northern island or somewhere. 

Vaguely scraping at someone's face? Not so much.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Techniques are banned because they often cause serious injury. Which is not that goal of MMA competition.  Full stop.
> 
> What's so hard to understand?  You don't think you can easily separate someone's jaw by hooking fingers in their mouth and separating their mandible?  That's all soft tissue.  Hard to fight when there are fingers shoved down your throat, dude.
> 
> Ever had an oil check?  My guess is no.  That's a type of fish hook, highly effective in wrestling, totes illegal, and used all the time to gain unfair advantages.


Fish hooks lead to accidental bitings they don’t stop or end fights.

If you’re talking about ‘the real world’ it doesn’t matter if you blind some for life, or tear a nostril or cheek, if the bad guy has choked you to death.

But if you want to rely on techniques that have no evidence of being effective to protect yourself go for it.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Super effective.  Super illegal.
> 
> Fish hooks.
> 
> ...


Surprising someone for a second doesn’t mean it’s good in a fight.

The overwhelming majority of these banned techniques are easily counterable.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

I do drills with my students where they have no rules, they just have to get away from me. Guess how many fish hooks and eye gouges and what not successfully got a student away from me. You know what has worked? Sport legal techniques, like punching in the nose.


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## Denoaikido (Nov 27, 2022)

At the end of the day every martial art has a flaw even MMA ,so do what makes you happy and what you like to do and what's fun for you. Because everybody can find a whole or a flaw in any martial art I do agree that MMA is probably the most complete art ,but that doesn't mean there isn't flaws in that when it comes to street fighting that's just my opinion is a self-defense system better I'm not sure that's correct but these are just my opinions have a great holidays


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## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> When was the last time someone did a fish hook in training? What makes you think a doing a fish hook would make any real difference in a ‘real’ fight?


Been a few years.  Two inmates were fighting and one of them fish hooked the other one and tore through the inside of the cheek/mouth and required a trip to the hospital and a bunch of stitches.   Oh...it also ended the fight when the guy started choking no his blood as he was gasping for breath.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Denoaikido said:


> At the end of the day every martial art has a flaw even MMA ,so do what makes you happy and what you like to do and what's fun for you. Because everybody can find a whole or a flaw in any martial art I do agree that MMA is probably the most complete art ,but that doesn't mean there isn't flaws in that when it comes to street fighting that's just my opinion is a self-defense system better I'm not sure that's correct but these are just my opinions have a great holidays


MMA isn’t a martial art. It’s an umbrella for rulesets.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Super effective.  Super illegal.
> 
> Fish hooks.
> 
> ...


Is this the sort of fish hook that you’re talking about dislocating the jaw? Because this isn’t a fish hook, nor would it be a legal self defense technique.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> Been a few years.  Two inmates were fighting and one of them fish hooked the other one and tore through the inside of the cheek/mouth and required a trip to the hospital and a bunch of stitches.   Oh...it also ended the fight when the guy started choking no his blood as he was gasping for breath.


Did that end the fight or did the guards end the fight by separating the fighters?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I do drills with my students where they have no rules, they just have to get away from me. Guess how many fish hooks and eye gouges and what not successfully got a student away from me. You know what has worked? Sport legal techniques, like punching in the nose.


So your students fish hooked and eye gouged you and it didn’t work, but when they punched you in the nose you let go? Hmm. Elbows and knees to back of head/neck? Medial to lateral knee kicks? Soccer kick to prone opponent? Certain foot/leg lock combos? Small joint manipulations?  There are some few things that aren’t in rulesets for good reason. These I listed because I think they are far more useful than biting, poking, fish hooking etc. Are your students doing these to each other or you? They  can work quite well if there are no rulesets and no concerns for the future health of the participants.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Is this the sort of fish hook that you’re talking about dislocating the jaw? Because this isn’t a fish hook, nor would it be a legal self defense technique.


Clearly, you have not been properly fish hooked by a person with grip strength. I wouldn’t call it fight ending, but when applied correctly it certainly is an uncomfortable experience. Your soup doesn’t stay in your mouth for a couple days after. I learned it from my dad, it worked pretty well in 4th grade.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Fish hooks lead to accidental bitings they don’t stop or end fights.
> 
> If you’re talking about ‘the real world’ it doesn’t matter if you blind some for life, or tear a nostril or cheek, if the bad guy has choked you to death.
> 
> But if you want to rely on techniques that have no evidence of being effective to protect yourself go for it.


Uh, fish hooks are one of the most dangerous banned techniques in MMA and grappling.  They have a great track record of permanently maiming and ending life.  That's just basic grappling know how.  

In the street?  You're looking at an aggravated felony in the lot of places for the same reasons.  

This is a well understood phenom dude.









						Fish-hooking - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I do drills with my students where they have no rules, they just have to get away from me. Guess how many fish hooks and eye gouges and what not successfully got a student away from me. You know what has worked? Sport legal techniques, like punching in the nose.


If you're allowing fish hooks in your school, make sure you carry a lot of insurance.  My guess is nobody tries it in your school because it's literally dangerous.

But it sounds like you don't have much grappling experience in general.  Weird because I could have sworn Goju Ryu taught fishhooks.  Maybe you got the watered down version. .

Jk, I don't know much about Goju Ryu, i could be wrong.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Clearly, you have not been properly fish hooked by a person with grip strength. I wouldn’t call it fight ending, but when applied correctly it certainly is an uncomfortable experience. Your soup doesn’t stay in your mouth for a couple days after. I learned it from my dad, it worked pretty well in 4th grade.


Listen, I'm gonna be as nice as a can but ANY trained high school or college wrestlers learn this stuff, both how much it sucks and can rip your jaw out and how effective fish hooking the mouth or anal region (or better, both) can be in competition.  Hence banned in MMA, wrestling, even Vale Tudo.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Listen, I'm gonna be as nice as a can but ANY trained high school or college wrestlers learn this stuff, both how much it sucks and can rip your jaw out and how effective fish hooking the mouth or anal region (or better, both) can be in competition.  Hence banned in MMA, wrestling, even Vale Tudo.


I haven’t had it applied to me in an actual fight. I have not applied it to an opponent in a fight. I remember having it done to me in Jiu Jitsu class as a kid by a mean orange belt named Koi. It was not pleasant. My dad showed me it as a kid. I am somewhat averse to putting my surgical money makers into someone’s mouth. The oil check, on the other hand is rather safer in most circles (other hand because we don’t go ATM, caveat: maybe in the heat of passion, but don’t make a habit out of it). Anyway, no need to be nice, I’m admitting I haven’t got much experience in fish hooking. We can’t seriously be getting heated over fish hooking technique or efficacy in here can we? Can we? I love that you are warning
me that you are trying to be nice, but that implies effort on your part. This means I have upset you somehow, so I would like to take this opportunity to apologize and remind you that I am in no way trying to contradict the wise teachings of ancient fish hooking knowledge, nor do I purport to have anything of value or substance to add. Except the not going ATM part, I mean that’s just not very hygienic.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I haven’t had it applied to me in an actual fight. I have not applied it to an opponent in a fight. I remember having it done to me in Jiu Jitsu class as a kid by a mean orange belt named Koi. It was not pleasant. My dad showed me it as a kid. I am somewhat averse to putting my surgical money makers into someone’s mouth. The oil check, on the other hand is rather safer in most circles (other hand because we don’t go ATM, caveat: maybe in the heat of passion, but don’t make a habit out of it). Anyway, no need to be nice, I’m admitting I haven’t got much experience in fish hooking. We can’t seriously be getting heated over fish hooking technique or efficacy in here can we? Can we? *I love that you are warning
> me that you are trying to be nice*, but that implies effort on your part. This means I have upset you somehow, so I would like to take this opportunity to apologize and remind you that I am in no way trying to contradict the wise teachings of ancient fish hooking knowledge, nor do I purport to have anything of value or substance to add. Except the not going ATM part, I mean that’s just not very hygienic.


Wasn't warning you.

Actually none of that post was addressed to you.

I just hit reply and you were last.  Sorry.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

Here were Goju's comments that I picked up on.

"They’re often banned because they don’t end fights, but have a high likelihood of *degrading someone’s quality of life over many exposures.
Fish hooking doesn’t destroy the jaw*. Holy hell where’d you hear that?"

He is wrong on both counts.  It doesn't just destroy the jaw, but all sorts of other things like the tongue, larynx, esophagus, not to mention it stops the breathing process and engage the gag reflex.  Imagine choking on your own vomit in a fight because somebody engaged your gag reflex. 

Where'd I hear it?  _Vision Quest?_  Probably not...but I can't remember, I'm old.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Wasn't warning you.
> 
> Actually none of that post was addressed to you.
> 
> I just hit reply and you were last.  Sorry.


Oh it’s all good. I’m not offended. I thought I had offended you somehow. Anyway I just saw an opportunity to make a silly joke.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

Another failed attempt at humor… oh well.  Y’all do know what ATM is right? I mean where is @PhotonGuy when I need him? @Steve ? You guys keep me inside the guard rails of funny. Explain it @Steve, you say that makes it funny.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

Ooh, I just got an idea…Danger is sure to follow…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

How bout the combo? Oil check TO a fish hook? That is a keeper! Doing that next Tuesday.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 27, 2022)

… tough crowd.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If you're allowing fish hooks in your school, make sure you carry a lot of insurance.  My guess is nobody tries it in your school because it's literally dangerous.
> 
> But it sounds like you don't have much grappling experience in general.  Weird because I could have sworn Goju Ryu taught fishhooks.  Maybe you got the watered down version. .
> 
> Jk, I don't know much about Goju Ryu, i could be wrong.


I’ve got plenty of grappling experience.

There just no evidence banned techniques are as devastating as people like you claim


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Uh, fish hooks are one of the most dangerous banned techniques in MMA and grappling.  They have a great track record of permanently maiming and ending life.  That's just basic grappling know how.
> 
> In the street?  You're looking at an aggravated felony in the lot of places for the same reasons.
> 
> ...


Just curious but did you read your link?


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Clearly, you have not been properly fish hooked by a person with grip strength. I wouldn’t call it fight ending, but when applied correctly it certainly is an uncomfortable experience. Your soup doesn’t stay in your mouth for a couple days after. I learned it from my dad, it worked pretty well in 4th grade.


Plenty of things are uncomfortable, but while you’re busy putting your fingers near my chompers, I have plenty of time to use my hands to deal with your undefended body.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> So your students fish hooked and eye gouged you and it didn’t work, but when they punched you in the nose you let go? Hmm. Elbows and knees to back of head/neck? Medial to lateral knee kicks? Soccer kick to prone opponent? Certain foot/leg lock combos? Small joint manipulations?  There are some few things that aren’t in rulesets for good reason. These I listed because I think they are far more useful than biting, poking, fish hooking etc. Are your students doing these to each other or you? They  can work quite well if there are no rulesets and no concerns for the future health of the participants.


They tried.
When you have a dominate position preventing an eye gouge isn’t that hard.
Same with fish hooking.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Just curious but did you read your link?


Are you serious?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’ve got plenty of grappling experience.
> 
> There just no evidence banned techniques are as devastating as people like you claim


Sure there is.

The entire history of wrestling, for starters.

It was banned long before UFC dude....


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Did that end the fight or did the guards end the fight by separating the fighters?



Both, the fish hooked fighter gave up and just turtled up on the ground and the other guy kept pounding on him until broken up.  It was most definitely a fight ender in that case.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 29, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> Both, the fish hooked fighter gave up and just turtled up on the ground and the other guy kept pounding on him until broken up.  It was most definitely a fight ender in that case.


The fish hooks people keep referencing here all require the dominate position to use, is that the same in the situation you’re referring to?


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sure there is.
> 
> The entire history of wrestling, for starters.
> 
> It was banned long before UFC dude....


Feel free to share that evidence then.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Feel free to share that evidence then.


Fish hooks are banned in all combat sports going back a long time.

Fish hooking is banned because it is dangerous, and can cause severe injury, permanent disability, disfigurement, and potential death (all of which can end a fight).

Therefore, you find a new hill to die on.

Logic 101.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 30, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Fish hooks are banned in all combat sports going back a long time.
> 
> Fish hooking is banned because it is dangerous, and can cause severe injury, permanent disability, disfigurement, and potential death (all of which can end a fight).
> 
> ...


Stating you think they’re too dangerous and therefore that’s why they’re banned isn’t evidence.

I for example shared two articles of professional fighters that had a dominant position used fishhooks, and it made absolutely no difference and they lost.

Your turn.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Stating you think they’re too dangerous and therefore that’s why they’re banned isn’t evidence.
> 
> I for example shared two articles of professional fighters that had a dominant position used fishhooks, and it made absolutely no difference and they lost.
> 
> Your turn.


But you're making the odd claim here.  And two little examples don't prove anything.  I have the history of every combat sport on my side: banned! Even Vale Tudo.  Possibly Pankration, (except maybe in Sparta.)

I shared a pretty primae facie proof.  My turn?  Game was over yesterday dude.  Fish hooks are really dangerous, therefore banned in all civilized combat sports.

You're arguing that because you beat all your alleged students and none of them succeeded with fishhooks, therefore the Unities Ruled and all the preceding precedents are wrong.  Good luck with that pitch.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 30, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But you're making the odd claim here.  And two little examples don't prove anything.  I have the history of every combat sport on my side: banned! Even Vale Tudo.  Possibly Pankration, (except maybe in Sparta.)
> 
> I shared a pretty primae facie proof.  My turn?  Game was over yesterday dude.  Fish hooks are really dangerous, therefore banned in all civilized combat sports.
> 
> You're arguing that because you beat all your alleged students and none of them succeeded with fishhooks, therefore the Unities Ruled and all the preceding precedents are wrong.  Good luck with that pitch.


Ok so you have no proof, just your belief why they are banned. Those two things are not the same.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Ok so you have no proof, just your belief why they are banned. Those two things are not the same.


You're making the claim that they're not banned because they're not dangerous, though.

That's a bold claim, bub.

Did you miss the premise, inference, conclusion proof?  That's what a proof looks like.  Your idea of proof is Youtube?  Pick a new hill, dude.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 30, 2022)

Vale Tudo, dude.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Feel free to share that evidence then.


To use firemen's carry to throw your opponent off the stage and kill him was banned in the ancient time.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To use firemen's carry to throw your opponent off the stage and kill him was banned in the ancient time.
> 
> View attachment 29365


I'm pretty sure that was actually legal and still is except for the killing part, depending on the contract.

Maximum points.


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The fish hooks people keep referencing here all require the dominate position to use, is that the same in the situation you’re referring to?


In this case, NO.  They were both just sort of rolling around on the ground because like most untrained people they didn't no jack about positioning or control.  In this particular situation, the fish hook was one handed (right hand) and the thumb was inserted along the inner cheek area and the remaining fingers were outside the mouth area.  Not sure the exact mechanics he used, but the damage was that the lower jaw area when the cheek meets inside the mouth was torn open.

I have always been told/taught that this is also a fish hook, I'm sure that there are other ways to do it.  But, this is how it was done in this case.


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Ok so you have no proof, just your belief why they are banned. Those two things are not the same.



He DID provide proof.  Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.  

Not sure what else could be provided.  What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> He DID provide proof.  Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.
> 
> Not sure what else could be provided.  What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?


Or put another way, where's the evidence that it's on the list for some other reason.  "Most banned techniques" and all that...it's safe to say a technique is banned for safety reasons by default.  Are there other reasons?  Hmm.  Not here.

Truth be told, there's only one reason.  People get really hurt, or at best, cheated, with fish hooking.  Even violated (it can be construed as a form of rape).

They don't call it dirty wrestling for nothing.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> He DID provide proof.  Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.
> 
> Not sure what else could be provided.  What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?


He didn’t share proof, and a 2 paragraph wiki link isn’t proof.
If the wiki link had examples with citations that would be a different story. 

UFC is the only major combat sport that allows the knee to be targeted with linear kicks. So by that logic linear kicks to the knee was ‘too dangerous to use’ up until the unified rules were created. It’s been shown not to be any more dangerous than any other technique.

He states a fact that it’s banned in most every major combat sport, and then gives his opinion on why it’s banned. That opinion may even be shared by those who write the rules, but shared opinions are not evidence. Examples create data, data can then be analyzed to create evidence.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> He didn’t share proof, and a 2 paragraph wiki link isn’t proof.
> If the wiki link had examples with citations that would be a different story.
> 
> UFC is the only major combat sport that allows the knee to be targeted with linear kicks. So by that logic linear kicks to the knee was ‘too dangerous to use’ up until the unified rules were created. It’s been shown not to be any more dangerous than any other technique.
> ...


So you have no evidence to support your claim that there's a different reason.  Got it, thanks for being honest about your own lack of source.

At least I shared an actual propositional proof.  You didn't even address that.  That wasn't "my opinion" dude, that was MMA, Vale Tudo, wrestling rules.  Your argument is in opposition to those, which is odd.  Everyone in combat sporting seems to agree on this, but you.

So, how many students do you own again on the mats, that can't pull off fishhooks?  Seriously, genuinely curious.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

In a perfect world, GojuTommy gets fishhooks unbanned in MMA, because they're not dangerous?

Insanity.

What's this world coming to, seriously.  Nobody wants to train marital arts with fishhooks, that's crazy.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> He didn’t share proof, and a 2 paragraph wiki link isn’t proof.
> If the wiki link had examples with citations that would be a different story.
> 
> UFC is the only major combat sport that allows the knee to be targeted with linear kicks. So by that logic linear kicks to the knee was ‘too dangerous to use’ up until the unified rules were created. It’s been shown not to be any more dangerous than any other technique.
> ...


Why make a foul then if it’s no more dangerous than any other technique?  A 12 to 6 elbow isn’t allowed, I believe that it’s a great way to get someone to expose the throat when you have their back, like bouncing their head against the ground. When they arch back to resist the next bounce, naked choke. Small joint manipulation isn’t deadly and likely not a fight ending move but it’s also a foul. Head butting? Biting? Why ban it?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why make a foul then if it’s no more dangerous than any other technique?  A 12 to 6 elbow isn’t allowed, I believe that it’s a great way to get someone to expose the throat when you have their back, like bouncing their head against the ground. When they arch back to resist the next bounce, naked choke. Small joint manipulation isn’t deadly and likely not a fight ending move but it’s also a foul. Head butting? Biting? Why ban it?


I have a theory.

GojuTommy hasnt been choked enough, fingers in or out.

 Part of that is because he runs an alleged school where he dominates all his students and nobody can get their fingers in his mouth, therefore fish hooks aren't effective.

He actually said that a few pages back.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In a perfect world, GojuTommy gets fishhooks unbanned in MMA, because they're not dangerous?
> 
> Insanity.
> 
> What's this world coming to, seriously.  Nobody wants to train marital arts with fishhooks, that's crazy.


Not really. Organized sports are not the only place injuries occur. Can you find anything in the literature about fishhook injuries? I cannot, except for the metal kind used by anglers. That would argue against your position.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. Organized sports are not the only place injuries occur. Can you find anything in the literature about fishhook injuries? I cannot, except for the metal kind used by anglers. That would argue against your position.


Fish hooking is one of the oldest banned techniques in combat sports history for a good reason.  Come on...tearing someone's face apart is unsporty.  It's especially unwanted in grappling sports.  Try it you'll get DQ'd, punched, ostracized.  You also might win the match but should feel terrible.

The "literature" is pretty well documented in trauma medicine.  And you won't find many videos, data etc.from the combat sports side, because it's banned. 

The extreme street version is called "curb stomping".  That's where the "hook" is concrete.
 Totally illegal, 10-20 year bid.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In a perfect world, GojuTommy gets fishhooks unbanned in MMA, because they're not dangerous?
> 
> Insanity.
> 
> What's this world coming to, seriously.  Nobody wants to train marital arts with fishhooks, that's crazy.


Sure, why not? The toughest of the tough want to prove it, except not really. Why not just go full blood sport, pre Roman style? Include live blades and traps and wild beasts. To the victor go the spoils!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I have a theory.
> 
> GojuTommy hasnt been choked enough, fingers in or out.
> 
> ...


I have been following this thread. Biting my nails, trying not to fish hook myself.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sure, why not? The toughest of the tough want to prove it, except not really. Why not just go full blood sport, pre Roman style? Include live blades and traps and wild beasts. To the victor go the spoils!


Tigers, definitely.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Fish hooking is one of the oldest banned techniques in combat sports history for a good reason.  Come on...tearing someone's face apart is unsporty.  It's especially unwanted in grappling sports.  Try it you'll get DQ'd, punched, ostracized.  You also might win the match but should feel terrible.
> 
> The "literature" is pretty well documented in trauma medicine.  And you won't find many videos, data etc.from the combat sports side, because it's banned.
> 
> ...


I’ve heard a lot about this mythical curb stomp. Mouth on curb? I doubt that it’s real.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’ve heard a lot about this mythical curb stomp. Mouth on curb? I doubt that it’s real.


I sure hope so, but it probably is.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Fish hooking is one of the oldest banned techniques in combat sports history for a good reason.


Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.


Oily Dragon said:


> Come on...tearing someone's face apart is unsporty.


If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.


Oily Dragon said:


> It's especially unwanted in grappling sports.  Try it you'll get DQ'd, punched, ostracized.  You also might win the match but should feel terrible.


Again, nothing there to support your "deadly" claim.


Oily Dragon said:


> The "literature" is pretty well documented in trauma medicine.


Is it? The why have I never treated such an injury in 40+ years in the ER? Nor can I recall seeing a write up on fish hooking injuries in any of the journals. Nor can I find any using Goofle or Medscape... It seems unlikely this would be the case for something "pretty well documented in trauma medicine". 
I did find one newspaper report of a man who fish hooked a woman during a domestic violence incident. He was charged with simple assault, because as reprehensible as his actions were, they didn't cause any injury at all. Only the fear of an injury.


Oily Dragon said:


> And you won't find many videos, data etc.from the combat sports side, because it's banned.


And apparently it's banned from assaults as well. Who knew?


Oily Dragon said:


> The extreme street version is called "curb stomping".  That's where the "hook" is concrete.


That's not correct. Curb stomping is exactly what it sounds like. Put their body part on the curb, and stomp on it. It's usually the head, but I've seen arms and legs broken by this method many times. Unlike those terrible fish hooking injuries.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’ve heard a lot about this mythical curb stomp. Mouth on curb? I doubt that it’s real.


It's a real thing. I doubt it's ever that precise. I've seen plenty of injuries from someone getting parts of their anatomy between the curb and a foot. The curb stomps involving the head are frequently fatal. Or worse.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.
> 
> If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.
> 
> ...


The arm yes. The leg yes. I haven’t ever seen someone move a persons mouth onto a curb.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a real thing. I doubt it's ever that precise. I've seen plenty of injuries from someone getting parts of their anatomy between the curb and a foot. The curb stomps involving the head are frequently fatal. Or worse.


Ok there you go, evidence. I have stomped (not with a curb)on a head, luckily, he didn’t die. I have stomped an arm and a hand or two also, very effective. I will ask around here and see what the docs tell me about their experiences.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.
> 
> If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.
> 
> ...


What's your alternative theory then?

Fish hooking is banned because...?  Dirty fingers?  Sexual penetration?  Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?

I'll go with contact sports experts on this issue (banned for danger), but thanks for your input.

This is one of the weirdest things I've seen argued on MT...techniques banned for mystical reasons other than injury/death.  I don't think that's a thing.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The arm yes. The leg yes. I haven’t ever seen someone move a persons mouth onto a curb.


As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok there you go, evidence. I have stomped (not with a curb)on a head, luckily, he didn’t die. I have stomped an arm and a hand or two also, very effective. I will ask around here and see what the docs tell me about their experiences.


The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.


Oily Dragon said:


> What's your alternative theory then?


Do I need one? I'm asking you to provide something other than unsupported opinion for YOUR theory. Unsupported, so that ties in with the curb stomping...

If I was to guess, I would say it's because facial injuries have a massive "ick" factor, and people want to avoid them for that reason. And perhaps also because if you tried to fish hook me, I'd certainly do my level best to bite your finger right off. Which is also something sporting associations would prefer to avoid. But those are just guesses, mind you.


Oily Dragon said:


> Fish hooking is banned because...?  Dirty fingers?  Sexual penetration?  Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?
> 
> I'll go with contact sports experts on this issue (banned for danger), but thanks for your input.
> 
> This is one of the weirdest things I've seen argued on MT...techniques banned for mystical reasons other than injury/death.  I don't think that's a thing.


You are free to believe whatever you like. But unsupported opinion, even from an expert, is still unsupported opinion.

So are you retracting your statement that these injuries are "well documented in trauma medicine" yet? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. Standing behind one claim which has been shown to be false does not help your other unsupported claim...


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.
> 
> The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.
> 
> ...


No, like I said I'll stick with expert opinion, until someone puts forward a reasonable alternative as to why fish hooking is illegal is every modern.combat sport.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Ok so I just spoke with the ED doc who trained in South Central L.A. In the 1980s. He saw the actual mouth on curb stomp there at least 5 times. I grew up near there and never saw it, so there you go. Evidence wins this one.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What's your alternative theory then?
> 
> Fish hooking is banned because...?  Dirty fingers?  Sexual penetration?  Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?
> 
> ...


I agree it’s an odd one.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.
> 
> The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.
> 
> ...


It may be that the curb stomp is a rarity outside of some certain areas or culture groups. In the cases my Dr. friend treated, he said they were all gang related “jump outs” meaning the injury was a specific punishment for leaving the gang they were in. As far as fish hooking, he said he has never seen that injury in over 35 years of being an emergency room Dr.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why make a foul then if it’s no more dangerous than any other technique?  A 12 to 6 elbow isn’t allowed, I believe that it’s a great way to get someone to expose the throat when you have their back, like bouncing their head against the ground. When they arch back to resist the next bounce, naked choke. Small joint manipulation isn’t deadly and likely not a fight ending move but it’s also a foul. Head butting? Biting? Why ban it?


Perception/misconception, unsporting, simply copying other sport’s rules, etc.
Kicking is illegal in boxing but is anyone going to say kicking is simply too dangerous. Head butting is illegal in every major combat sport, but legal in lethwei which has shown it’s no more dangerous than any other technique used in KB, MT, or MMA.

I don’t think fish hooks should be in sport, largely because it’s unsporting and low skill, and can only be effectively employed once you have already achieved once you have a dominating position.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So you have no evidence to support your claim that there's a different reason.  Got it, thanks for being honest about your own lack of source.
> 
> At least I shared an actual propositional proof.  You didn't even address that.  That wasn't "my opinion" dude, that was MMA, Vale Tudo, wrestling rules.  Your argument is in opposition to those, which is odd.  Everyone in combat sporting seems to agree on this, but you.
> 
> So, how many students do you own again on the mats, that can't pull off fishhooks?  Seriously, genuinely curious.


Again being against the rules isn’t a support of your argument and a point against mine, because I never said it should be legal in sport.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.
> 
> If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.
> 
> ...


You think if it was so well documented he would have shared some of that documentation.
I’d also like to note as a second ER datapoint that after nearly 3 years of hospital security I’ve never seen someone in our ER from any injury that could be attributed to fish hooking by any reasonable person.

I’d agree the risk of serious damage effecting quality of life almost immediately even from an accidental bite would be reason enough to not to allow the fish hook.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.
> 
> The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.
> 
> ...


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> No, like I said I'll stick with expert opinion, until someone puts forward a reasonable alternative as to why fish hooking is illegal is every modern.combat sport.


Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesn’t qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
Expert at the sport in question? If they’ve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?

Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so they’re banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.

Explain why headbutts are illegal in every major combat sport but have not been an issue in lethwei competitions?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesn’t qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
> Expert at the sport in question? If they’ve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?
> 
> Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so they’re banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.
> ...


TBI is a real and documented risk in football. What’s so unsporting about a 12 to 6 elbow?


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> TBI is a real and documented risk in football. What’s so unsporting about a 12 to 6 elbow?


TBI and CTE are very real i just watched a heart breaking look into it in combat sports, however if we're going to allow punches, kicks, knees, and elbows to the head, CTE/TBI is not enough of a reason to ban headbutts, which have been banned in boxing since long before anyone knew what TBI or CTE were and just called it 'punch drunk'

nothing is unsporting about it. It was banned i believe because it has a higher rate of opening up cuts to the head, which while often minor, bleed horrendously, and the appearance of being vicious and wild is what got MMA initially banned in so many states to begin with. while also being very difficult to defend against as it's typically coming from above/behind. the behind aspect could also be a big reason as well, to help ensure no 12-6 elbows are striking the spine.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.
> 
> Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
> Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.


True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesn’t qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
> Expert at the sport in question? If they’ve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?
> 
> Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so they’re banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.
> ...


"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports.  I keep saying that, don't I?  There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards.  How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury?  That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation.  Weird.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.


If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).

And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too.  Wrestling 101.  I already posted a video of that.  Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.

Honestly, this entire derail has gotten dumb. Now I'm being demanded to prove why headbutts are illegal in MMA but not Lethwei?

Whatever guys.  You do you.


----------



## GojuTommy (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "Experts in what exactly"?
> 
> Combat sports.  I keep saying that, don't I?  There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?
> 
> ...


Expert in combat sport is such a broad term that it’s essentially meaningless.

You have nothing to support you except appeals to authority.
You claim the danger and damage is well documented but can’t provide any such documentation.

You make claims about rules that were created like 200+ years ago.

Western combat sports are all based around either boxing or wrestling, and even the Asian combat sports have migrated more that way because the big money is in the west.

You refuse to explain why headbutts are legal in lethwei but no where else because there’s no good reason for it.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok so I just spoke with the ED doc who trained in South Central L.A. In the 1980s. He saw the actual mouth on curb stomp there at least 5 times. I grew up near there and never saw it, so there you go. Evidence wins this one.


I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> It may be that the curb stomp is a rarity outside of some certain areas or culture groups. In the cases my Dr. friend treated, he said they were all gang related “jump outs” meaning the injury was a specific punishment for leaving the gang they were in. As far as fish hooking, he said he has never seen that injury in over 35 years of being an emergency room Dr.


Nope. Neither have I.


GojuTommy said:


> after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.


I call that "cultural inertia"; "we do it that way because we've always done it that way". Cultural inertia can be a problem in many fields. And I think you're right about that being the prime motivator in this case.



Oily Dragon said:


> "Experts in what exactly"?
> 
> Combat sports.  I keep saying that, don't I?  There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?


Right, but what makes you think people they are experts in the trauma purportedly attributed to fish hooking? Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence to support that belief.


Oily Dragon said:


> As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.


Not at all. We are unable to find any evidence that your claim is correct. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
And we are asking you to provide some. You have not. You have backpedaled. You have moved the goal posts. You have made demonstrably false statements. 

Your reliance on Truth by Blatant Assertion, Appeal to Authority, and flat out BS is not making your argument more credible.


Oily Dragon said:


> And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards.


Arguing from ignorance is what you call making claims without any supporting evidence and then making up evidence.


Oily Dragon said:


> How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury?


The same place you find data on knife wounds and other non-sporting methods of ending fighting. 


Oily Dragon said:


> That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.


Oh, that's easy then.



			Blunt Head Trauma - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf
		






						Experimental Study of Cranial Injuries Due to Blunt Force Trauma: Sus scrofa domestica Model
					

Cranial blunt force trauma is of major concern in forensic sciences. The aim of this study is to shed light on cranial bone trauma caused by blunt weapons from an experimental perspective. The experimentation involved the production of blunt injuries to 21 pig skulls with different objects...




					juniperpublishers.com
				











						Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma:  | RRFMS
					

Forensic investigation of cranial injuries due to blunt force trauma: current best practice Elena F Kranioti,1,2 1Department of Forensic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Crete, Heraklion, Crete, Greece; 2Edinburgh Unit of Forensic Anthropology, School of History, Classics and...




					www.dovepress.com
				








						Forensic Autopsy of Blunt Force Trauma: Overview, Definitions, Scene Findings
					

Deaths resulting from blunt force trauma are some of the most common cases encountered by the practicing forensic pathologist. Whereas other forms of traumatic death (eg, gunshot wounds, sharp force injuries) occur under a relatively limited number of circumstances, deaths resulting from blunt...



					emedicine.medscape.com
				











						HEAD INJURY CASE WITH BLUNT FORCE TRAUMATIC: CASE REPORT
					






					scholar.unair.ac.id
				








						Depressed skull fracture following a baseball bat strike to the head
					

Depressed skull fracture following a baseball bat strike to the head, L Turco* & B Phillips




					www.openaccessjournals.com
				











						The baseball bat: a popular mechanism of urban injury - PubMed
					

From January 1989 through December 1990, 74 patients were admitted to our urban level I trauma center with injuries inflicted by baseball bats. We investigated the demographics and dynamics of injury in these patients by retrospective analysis of the patient's medical record and Trauma Registry...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				











						Blunt force impact to the head using a teeball bat: systematic comparison of physical and finite element modeling - PubMed
					

Blunt head trauma secondary to violent actions with various weapons is frequently a cause of injury in forensic casework; differing striking tools have varying degrees of injury capacity. The systematic approach used to examine a 19-year-old student who was beaten with a wooden teeball bat will...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				





			https://www.walshmedicalmedia.com/open-access/biomechanical-examination-of-blunt-trauma-due-to-baseball-bat-blows-to-the-head-2090-2697-2-108.pdf
		









						Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report
					

"Skull Fracture and Brain Contusion in a Baseball Player: A Case Report" published on Jan 2009 by Human Kinetics, Inc..




					journals.humankinetics.com
				





			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237260934_Skull_Fracture_and_Brain_Contusion_in_a_Baseball_Player_A_Case_Report
		






						Europe PMC
					

Europe PMC is an archive of life sciences journal literature.




					europepmc.org
				





			Neurotransmitter and Cell Death (Section 4, Chapter 12) Neuroscience Online: An Electronic Textbook for the Neurosciences | Department of Neurobiology and Anatomy - The University of Texas Medical School at Houston
		









						Baseball bat assault injuries - PubMed
					

The baseball bat, according to Baltimore City police crime statistics, is a commonly used weapon. To assess the severity of injuries inflicted by this modern-day club, we retrospectively reviewed 75 charts of patients treated at the University of Maryland Medical Systems Hospital for baseball...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				











						Baseball bat injuries to the maxillofacial region caused by assault - PubMed
					

Assaults with a baseball bat can result in significant morbidity and even mortality.




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				











						BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery
					

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...




					journals.lww.com
				





			The baseball bat: a modern day cudgel | Emergency Medicine Journal
		









						BASEBALL BAT ASSAULT INJURIES : Journal of Trauma and Acute Care Surgery
					

injuries from January 1990 through July 1991. Multisystem trauma was documented, with craniocerebral injury being the most frequent and the most frequent cause of death. Of the victims struck on the head, 26% sustained an intracranial hemorrhage. In our series, the history of loss of...




					journals.lww.com
				








						2023 ICD-10-CM Diagnosis Code Y08.02XS: Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela
					

ICD 10 code for Assault by strike by baseball bat, sequela. Get free rules, notes, crosswalks, synonyms, history for ICD-10 code Y08.02XS.




					www.icd10data.com
				





			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233521247_Baseball_bats_a_silent_weapon
		


I doubt it was a baseball bat 33,000 years ago, but blunt force is blunt force. I doubt Ogg hitting Erg with an ox femur is significantly different to John smacking Bob with a bat.








						Study concludes 33,000-year-old skull shows signs of blunt-force trauma
					

The killer was probably left-handed and used a club to administer the fatal blow.




					arstechnica.com
				




This is what is meant by "well documented in trauma medicine", by the way. Just in case you weren't clear about what that phrase meant when you claimed it to be true of fish hooking injuries.

So yet another demonstrably false claim. The data on fish hooking injuries is *CLEARLY* not "in the same place as baseball bats to the head data", because if it was, I could find it. 



Oily Dragon said:


> It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation.  Weird.


It's like you're making crap up as you go along to support an untenable position. Weird.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

Oh well.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> "Experts in what exactly"?
> 
> Combat sports.  I keep saying that, don't I?  There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?
> 
> ...


I love to question the whole combat sports industry, it’s fun. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I might be stirring the pot a bit to see what surfaces.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).
> 
> And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too.  Wrestling 101.  I already posted a video of that.  Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.
> 
> ...


Oh I’m not demanding anything. I really have no grounds to dispute what you say here. I’m actually interested but just being my jackass self.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.
> 
> Nope. Neither have I.
> 
> ...


There’s an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> He DID provide proof.  Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.
> 
> Not sure what else could be provided.  What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?



It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> There’s an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.


No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.


drop bear said:


> It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.


Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.
> 
> Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?


Lol! To the victor go the spoils…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.
> 
> Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?


I mean soils…


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## GojuTommy (Dec 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I love to question the whole combat sports industry, it’s fun. I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but I might be stirring the pot a bit to see what surfaces.


I think that’s what we call trolling lol


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I think that’s what we call trolling lol


Trolling as in fishing for something good.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 2, 2022)

So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’
> 
> A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.


Well if I am in the dominant position when I oil check, it’s not nearly as dangerous as it would be without the canola oil and plastic sheets.


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## Steve (Dec 2, 2022)

Just to throw out a different point of view, while it's true that some rules are made for safety, there are reasons other than safety that rules are made in combat sports.  Sometimes, it's just about what will make the sport more enjoyable to watch or in which to participate.  If fish hooking were legal in MMA, would that make the sport more enjoyable and accessible to the average member of the public or less?  Optics are involved.  Marketability is involved.  Safety, too... but just one of several considerations.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’
> 
> A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.


We could debate the match by watching the tape after.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Just to throw out a different point of view, while it's true that some rules are made for safety, there are reasons other than safety that rules are made in combat sports.  Sometimes, it's just about what will make the sport more enjoyable to watch or in which to participate.  If fish hooking were legal in MMA, would that make the sport more enjoyable and accessible to the average member of the public or less?  Optics are involved.  Marketability is involved.  Safety, too... but just one of several considerations.


True, it’s a spectacle and a business first. It won’t exist in the same way without viewers. However, people love to watch sports violence. Take crashes in car races for instance.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Just to throw out a different point of view, while it's true that some rules are made for safety, there are reasons other than safety that rules are made in combat sports.  Sometimes, it's just about what will make the sport more enjoyable to watch or in which to participate.  If fish hooking were legal in MMA, would that make the sport more enjoyable and accessible to the average member of the public or less?  Optics are involved.  Marketability is involved.  Safety, too... but just one of several considerations.


Optics and marketability is the whole reason the unified rules of MMA were created in the first place, so that would strongly suggest this is true.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> True, it’s a spectacle and a business first. It won’t exist in the same way without viewers. However, people love to watch sports violence. Take crashes in car races for instance.


I’ve never met a race fan who watched racing of any sort in the hope of viewing a crash…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’ve never met a race fan who watched racing of any sort in the hope of viewing a crash…


Not an injury necessarily, It’s a dirty secret. They all do. Just like people like to see a knockout. Roman games anyone?


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## GojuTommy (Dec 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not an injury necessarily, It’s a dirty secret. They all do. Just like people like to see a knockout. Roman games anyone?


There’s a huge difference between people hoping for a knock out in combat sports and people hoping for a crash


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’ve never met a race fan who watched racing of any sort in the hope of viewing a crash…


Don't know many race fans then. I think very few are hoping for injuries, but crashes are always popular.

You're right that there is a difference between combat sports and racing, though. After all, an average of 13 people die *each year* from boxing injuries, but only 44 have died at all the NASCAR tracks combined.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 3, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Don't know many race fans then. I think very few are hoping for injuries, but crashes are always popular.
> 
> You're right that there is a difference between combat sports and racing, though. After all, an average of 13 people die *each year* from boxing injuries, but only 44 have died at all the NASCAR tracks combined.


Spot on.


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## drop bear (Dec 3, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So I think we can sum things up as ‘there’s a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports’
> 
> A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.



Being able to fight makes Being able to do illegal moves a bit easier. There are chin control options from a non dominant position. Which is essentially what people are going to use fish hooks for.

But you still need to know those positions.

Now your choice in training. Mabye you can find a partner who will let you put your finger in his mouth. But that partner won't be me.

So yntill then you will probably have to put up with Being good at chin control and hope you can figure out fish hooks when the time comes.





The advantage of chin control over fish hooks is you get neck cranks. Which will really mess someone up.


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## GojuTommy (Dec 3, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Being able to fight makes Being able to do illegal moves a bit easier. There are chin control options from a non dominant position. Which is essentially what people are going to use fish hooks for.
> 
> But you still need to know those positions.
> 
> ...


Are you sure I can’t stick my fingers in your mouth?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 4, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Are you sure I can’t stick my fingers in your mouth?


Wow, just wow. Buy a fella drink first Romeo.


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## tkdroamer (Dec 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Don't know many race fans then. I think very few are hoping for injuries, but crashes are always popular.
> 
> You're right that there is a difference between combat sports and racing, though. After all, an average of 13 people die *each year* from boxing injuries, but only 44 have died at all the NASCAR tracks combined.


"He's makin' a left turn! ...He's makin; another left turn!

Seriously though, I love watching NHRA drag racing.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 4, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> "He's makin' a left turn! ...He's makin; another left turn!
> 
> Seriously though, I love watching NHRA drag racing.


I specified NASCAR and Boxing because they are arguably the most common examples of race and combat sports with long documented safety records.

I enjoy racing. There's an NHRA track less than 10 miles from our home. I'm a regular at the Friday Night Drags. It's awesome. $30 a car and you can run all night. I have done easily a thousand runs on that track. They also have a 2.3 mile, 14 turn road course. I've done hundreds of laps on that, too. I'm a fan of the door slammer classes, and real street cars are my absolute favorites. Real ones. Cars with AC, comfortable seats, infotainment systems, that don't require you to disassemble the cage to get in. Cars you can comfortably drive cross country, getting decent mileage on pump gas, stop at drag strips and road courses along the way and run respectable times on both. Without needing to change anything.
My current daily has been down the strip about 400 times. We do 4,000 mile road trips in it. And I run it on the road course as well. On low-profile tires, without even changing tire pressure, on a DA of 8800 feet, on an unprepped track (VHT doesn't get used on open track days), it's done a best of 11.9@124. From the ET, you can probably tell it's extremely traction limited.

The funny cars and top fuelers are certainly impressive, but I prefer cars that can be driven more than 1/2 mile without a full rebuild.

I also follow sports car racing (that's Jake on my hood!) and endurance racing.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I specified NASCAR and Boxing because they are arguably the most common examples of race and combat sports with long documented safety records.
> 
> I enjoy racing. There's an NHRA track less than 10 miles from our home. I'm a regular at the Friday Night Drags. It's awesome. $30 a car and you can run all night. I have done easily a thousand runs on that track. They also have a 2.3 mile, 14 turn road course. I've done hundreds of laps on that, too. I'm a fan of the door slammer classes, and real street cars are my absolute favorites. Real ones. Cars with AC, comfortable seats, infotainment systems, that don't require you to disassemble the cage to get in. Cars you can comfortably drive cross country, getting decent mileage on pump gas, stop at drag strips and road courses along the way and run respectable times on both. Without needing to change anything.
> My current daily has been down the strip about 400 times. We do 4,000 mile road trips in it. And I run it on the road course as well. On low-profile tires, without even changing tire pressure, on a DA of 8800 feet, on an unprepped track (VHT doesn't get used on open track days), it's done a best of 11.9@124. From the ET, you can probably tell it's extremely traction limited.
> ...


My dad had a lot of cars...He was in Hotrod magazine in the late 70s and had the center layout for his Chevy Silverado? pickup with a crazy pinstripe paint job. I recently sold a 1932 Ford 5 window with a 383 stroker, mustang 2 front end, 1969 Corvette rear end. Chopped, dropped,  purple pearl on ivory white.( built for my mother ). Im not a car guy per se but I’ve had an incredible exposure to them because of my dad.


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## tkdroamer (Dec 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I specified NASCAR and Boxing because they are arguably the most common examples of race and combat sports with long documented safety records.
> 
> I enjoy racing. There's an NHRA track less than 10 miles from our home. I'm a regular at the Friday Night Drags. It's awesome. $30 a car and you can run all night. I have done easily a thousand runs on that track. They also have a 2.3 mile, 14 turn road course. I've done hundreds of laps on that, too. I'm a fan of the door slammer classes, and real street cars are my absolute favorites. Real ones. Cars with AC, comfortable seats, infotainment systems, that don't require you to disassemble the cage to get in. Cars you can comfortably drive cross country, getting decent mileage on pump gas, stop at drag strips and road courses along the way and run respectable times on both. Without needing to change anything.
> My current daily has been down the strip about 400 times. We do 4,000 mile road trips in it. And I run it on the road course as well. On low-profile tires, without even changing tire pressure, on a DA of 8800 feet, on an unprepped track (VHT doesn't get used on open track days), it's done a best of 11.9@124. From the ET, you can probably tell it's extremely traction limited.
> ...


There is a 'run what you bring' strip about an hour north of where I live. Me, and my friends frequented it often when we were younger. At 18, we had built a '69 Dodge Challenger and ran in Pro Stock. Later on, we took the same car and converted it to a dirt track car and raced for 3-years. Great times. 
There is a road course east of me that I have not tried yet. I think you can only use their cars but supposedly have some pretty cool rides. From the high-end Lamborghini to tamed down open wheel cars.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 5, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> There is a 'run what you bring' strip about an hour north of where I live. Me, and my friends frequented it often when we were younger. At 18, we had built a '69 Dodge Challenger and ran in Pro Stock. Later on, we took the same car and converted it to a dirt track car and raced for 3-years. Great times.


When I was in HS, there was no track closer than about 2.5 hours. So we found a place out in the middle of nowhere and raced there. There was a 3/4 mile straight, fairly level stretch. Cars at both ends with radios to ensure no other traffic (which very rarely happened, there was nothing out there to attract traffic). 1/4 mile race, 1/2 mile to slow down. Spectators kept behind the start. The local PD knew where the racing took place, but so long as nobody acted the fool in areas with traffic, they mostly left us alone. 

When the drag strip opened, it was ~30 minutes from my house. The Friday Night Drags were (and still are) intended to provide a dirt cheap option for kids to race without breaking the law. It's still billed as a "take it to the track" event, and features "race a cop" and stuff like that. Back then it was like $5 to get in. Today it's $30. So still dirt cheap.

My buddies and I built a '69 RS/SS Camaro for Pro Street. Door slammers were our roots, and still what I find most interesting. At it's best, it ran mid-8's in the mid-160's. Wrecked it at Bandimere, when the guy in the other lane blew an engine and a chunk of rod took out a slick. Into the retaining wall at 160MPH or so, spinning. Every single body panel except the roof hit. Not an experience I care to repeat, but proof to young me that roll cages and harnesses work. To this day, those are one of the earliest mods I do on any vehicle.




tkdroamer said:


> There is a road course east of me that I have not tried yet. I think you can only use their cars but supposedly have some pretty cool rides. From the high-end Lamborghini to tamed down open wheel cars.


So it's a grown up go-kart track. That could be fun once, or once for each type of car, but probably not as a regular thing. Of course, if I didn't own a sports car, or wasn't willing to hammer it, I might very well feel differently.


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## tkdroamer (Dec 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> When I was in HS, there was no track closer than about 2.5 hours. So we found a place out in the middle of nowhere and raced there. There was a 3/4 mile straight, fairly level stretch. Cars at both ends with radios to ensure no other traffic (which very rarely happened, there was nothing out there to attract traffic). 1/4 mile race, 1/2 mile to slow down. Spectators kept behind the start. The local PD knew where the racing took place, but so long as nobody acted the fool in areas with traffic, they mostly left us alone.
> 
> When the drag strip opened, it was ~30 minutes from my house. The Friday Night Drags were (and still are) intended to provide a dirt cheap option for kids to race without breaking the law. It's still billed as a "take it to the track" event, and features "race a cop" and stuff like that. Back then it was like $5 to get in. Today it's $30. So still dirt cheap.
> 
> ...


We pretty much destroyed the Challenger on the dirt track. It already had cage in it from the strip days, but we had to modify it and radically modify the front-end to run on dirt. It was rolled or slammed into the wall multiple times but, you seldom got over 100 mph on dirt. Still a hell of a ride if you were in the open when it started turning.


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