# Tactical Flashlight



## Juany118

Came across this recently and will likely be my next go to taclight.  The ring feature is a big selling point for me.  That said @Buka .  I thought of your previous "I am watching you" when some of us were talking about self defense tools you can get through airport security when I saw the video.  Watch it and you will know the section I am referring to... . The price isn't even bad for a light of that construction (lumens, aircraft aluminum etc.)


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## drop bear

The fox krambit of torches?

Buy it and see how it goes.  I have ideas where there might be issues.

My major concern is i don't know the torch brand. So the actual ability to consistently light the darkness isn't really a proven factor.  Especially if you are hitting things with it.  

Which never seems good for torches.


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## Juany118

drop bear said:


> The fox krambit of torches?
> 
> Buy it and see how it goes.  I have ideas where there might be issues.
> 
> My major concern is i don't know the torch brand. So the actual ability to consistently light the darkness isn't really a proven factor.  Especially if you are hitting things with it.
> 
> Which never seems good for torches.



Well here is the thing.  The light is almost purely a self defense tool.  It uses the CREE XM-L2 1,000 Lumen LED and they make solid, tough LEDs but as I suspected, in a package that size, heat is an issue.  They recommend not using it on steady High mode for more than 2 minutes.  So they are hedging their bets (and thus the lower settings).  At the same time similar lights of confirmed quality (say Surefire) can cost north of $200.00 vs sub $90.00 so it is worth an experiment imo.


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## Buka

Now I'm curious. Guess I'm going to have to get one of those in the next month (I have a long list of equipment needs right now) and run it by my TSA friends and see what they have to say. I'll get back to you with what I hear. (this is so much fun!)

I have mixed feelings about the ring feature. Like it in a lot of ways, afraid of my finger getting torn in others. (I think the concern comes from being out of the field for a few years, nice to be back, though)

By the by....in the vid, loved the use of the back of the thigh at the 3:05 mark to turn the body. That was nice. Gotta take a look at that.


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## hoshin1600

Since we are talking flash lights,,anyone ever use an Olight?  Thinking of getting one for EDC.


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## Brian R. VanCise

With a Kerambit if someone interdicts your knife bearing hand you can cut your way out.  With a ring around a tactical light you do not have that option.  Not a fan of the ring feature on this flash light!


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## Bill Mattocks

I dislike the word 'tactical' and steer clear of anything so described.  A flashlight is a nice thing to have, and it can certainly be used as a weapon, but I don't carry one in my pocket or in a holster.

As with most weapons that are thinly-disguised as tools, it's not fooling law enforcement.  If a person has a screwdriver in their pocket and there isn't a repair taking place nearby, it's a burglar tool or a concealed weapon.  So too with a 'tactical' flashlight.  Nobody is fooled by "Look, it's just a flashlight!"


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## Juany118

Bill Mattocks said:


> I dislike the word 'tactical' and steer clear of anything so described.  A flashlight is a nice thing to have, and it can certainly be used as a weapon, but I don't carry one in my pocket or in a holster.
> 
> As with most weapons that are thinly-disguised as tools, it's not fooling law enforcement.  If a person has a screwdriver in their pocket and there isn't a repair taking place nearby, it's a burglar tool or a concealed weapon.  So too with a 'tactical' flashlight.  Nobody is fooled by "Look, it's just a flashlight!"



The problem is, at least in my state I can only say it's an instrument of crime IF I have a crime to connect it to.  Walking down the street with a flashlight in one pocket and a screwdriver in the other at 3 am, I am watching that guy.  Walking down the street with the same stuff, plus $35.00 worth of coin, 5 cell phone chargers and another officer is telling me he is finding cars that were gone through up the street, NOW I might have something


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## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> Well here is the thing.  The light is almost purely a self defense tool.  It uses the CREE XM-L2 1,000 Lumen LED and they make solid, tough LEDs but as I suspected, in a package that size, heat is an issue.  They recommend not using it on steady High mode for more than 2 minutes.  So they are hedging their bets (and thus the lower settings).  At the same time similar lights of confirmed quality (say Surefire) can cost north of $200.00 vs sub $90.00 so it is worth an experiment imo.



Nitecore is probably what i would compare that light to. similar price. similar output. Surefire is massively overpriced.
so say something like this.





I don't really use strobes anymore exept to signal people.

As far as reliability i think it is the battery connection that goes out. as everything loosens up the less well built torches will start to intermittently switch off and on.

And this is going to determine your self defence use. For me I use a torch like this defensively in two ways.

1. As you see in the video. I think something is amiss and I shine a light on it from a hundred meters away. If there is something going on either they run away or I do.

2. I pull it out and hammerfist someone in the head. I wouldn't even attempt arm destruction or locks. I dont have enough time.

So any bright torch that is a basic tube will do the job. provided it turns on and stays on when i want it to.

I am also anti bevel but that is because I am a guy. there are not many circumstances that happen where i can justify chopping up someone's face. for a chick they get away with that a bit more.

But it means i cant unload on someone as quickly as I would if the resulting damage is a cut or a bruise. In fact if I was making tactical torches I would have a flat impact surface.


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## Frost890

The problem I see is with the bevel. Some TSA will consider it a weapon. It is a long bevel, longer then needed to "see the flashlight if I set it down". Many consider any bevel to be a "Strike Bevel" only used as a weapon.


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## Blindside

Frost890 said:


> The problem I see is with the bevel. Some TSA will consider it a weapon. It is a long bevel, longer then needed to "see the flashlight if I set it down". Many consider any bevel to be a "Strike Bevel" only used as a weapon.



The bevel is removable if that is a concern.


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## Blindside

Buka said:


> Now I'm curious. Guess I'm going to have to get one of those in the next month (I have a long list of equipment needs right now) and run it by my TSA friends and see what they have to say. I'll get back to you with what I hear. (this is so much fun!)
> 
> I have mixed feelings about the ring feature. Like it in a lot of ways, afraid of my finger getting torn in others. (I think the concern comes from being out of the field for a few years, nice to be back, though)
> 
> By the by....in the vid, loved the use of the back of the thigh at the 3:05 mark to turn the body. That was nice. Gotta take a look at that.



I got to handle a beta version of one of these last July (Jared there is my kali instructor) and I had mixed feelings about the ring as well.  Love it for access, I am not sure I am a fan of it if I am using it as an impact weapon, the ring forces my index finger out of its standard position so I am not sure how it would feel if I was hitting something hard. As it was an early sample I didn't get to whack it on anything or do any destruction tests.   That was a quick impression from just a couple of minutes of handling.


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## Juany118

Blindside said:


> I got to handle a beta version of one of these last July (Jared there is my kali instructor) and I had mixed feelings about the ring as well.  Love it for access, I am not sure I am a fan of it if I am using it as an impact weapon, the ring forces my index finger out of its standard position so I am not sure how it would feel if I was hitting something hard. As it was an early sample I didn't get to whack it on anything or do any destruction tests.   That was a quick impression from just a couple of minutes of handling.


First you beat me on the bevel bit.  In your description of issues with striking I can see the concern but this is how I was looking at it (pure mind play here since I haven't gotten one yet but using a combination of two things a palm stick and the Fox DART XT.  I see most of the strikes you would do with the flashlight as similar to a palm stick, in essence striking with the top and bottom of the fist.  That said I have done some full on punching on my tire dummy and a heavy bag with the DART.  My finger is indeed off BUT the ring itself did protect me from injuring myself.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Psilent Knight

I'm not a fan of the ring feature at all. As far as not losing it during a self defense situation, I would rather have a lanyard instead of that finger ring.

I think a torch that has a lanyard as well as a pocket/belt clip is ideal. But I don't think I've ever seen a light that has both. What is everyone's opinions on which would be preferable to have if you had to choose one or the other? A pocket clip for more convenient carry or a lanyard to minimize risk of dropping it and/or having it taken away by your assailant?


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## CB Jones

Stream light for illumination.... old mag light for putting knots on someone's head.


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## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> I'm not a fan of the ring feature at all. As far as not losing it during a self defense situation, I would rather have a lanyard instead of that finger ring.
> 
> I think a torch that has a lanyard as well as a pocket/belt clip is ideal. But I don't think I've ever seen a light that has both. What is everyone's opinions on which would be preferable to have if you had to choose one or the other? A pocket clip for more convenient carry or a lanyard to minimize risk of dropping it and/or having it taken away by your assailant?


The ring feature isn't limited to retention though.  It also gives you the ability to knuckle dust al la brass knuckles.  I'm it also allows for more rapid, and secure, deployment from either a pocket or pouch/holster.  /Shrug.


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## Psilent Knight

Juany118 said:


> The ring feature isn't limited to retention though.  It also gives you the ability to knuckle dust al la brass knuckles.  I'm it also allows for more rapid, and secure, deployment from either a pocket or pouch/holster.  /Shrug.



Is another use of the finger ring so that the flashlight can be used as a makeshift Suntetsu (though I think that would be awkward)?


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## CB Jones

I think the finger ring would be a finger breaker in a fight


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## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> Is another use of the finger ring so that the flashlight can be used as a makeshift Suntetsu (though I think that would be awkward)?



Not really, the inspiration is more based on the karambit.


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## Brian R. VanCise

However, Juany118 it is not a Karambit.  If the hand is interdicted/grabbed you can't cut your way out.  That ring feature is just going to get your finger broken.  Not a good idea.


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## CB Jones

Psilent Knight said:


> I'm not a fan of the ring feature at all. As far as not losing it during a self defense situation, I would rather have a lanyard instead of that finger ring.
> 
> I think a torch that has a lanyard as well as a pocket/belt clip is ideal. But I don't think I've ever seen a light that has both. What is everyone's opinions on which would be preferable to have if you had to choose one or the other? A pocket clip for more convenient carry or a lanyard to minimize risk of dropping it and/or having it taken away by your assailant?



Pocket clip.

I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.


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## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> I think the finger ring would be a finger breaker in a fight


With this tool not really.  It is a possibility with a karambit, say as you slash it gets stuck in a bone, however with this you either punch or do an icepick like "stab."


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## CB Jones

Brian R. VanCise said:


> However, Juany118 it is not a Karambit.  If the hand is interdicted/grabbed you can't cut your way out.  That ring feature is just going to get your finger broken.  Not a good idea.



This.  Without a blade the attacker is free to go right at it and try to pry it out of your hands.  And with your finger in the ring, if the attacker gets control of it you are going to be in a world of pain.


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## Juany118

Brian R. VanCise said:


> However, Juany118 it is not a Karambit.  If the hand is interdicted/grabbed you can't cut your way out.  That ring feature is just going to get your finger broken.  Not a good idea.



I am wondering if that would really be an issue though.  So little of the flashlight sticks out that I can't see someone realistically getting that kind of leverage.  /Shrug.  If it's possible I will likely find out, because I carry it at work now.  I will let y'all know either way.


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## CB Jones

Juany118 said:


> With this tool not really.  It is a possibility with a karambit, say as you slash it gets stuck in a bone, however with this you either punch or do an icepick like "stab."



What I mean by finger breaker is.  If the attacker can get control of it he only has to twist and your finger is locked into it and now can be twisted and broken.


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## Bill Mattocks

CB Jones said:


> Pocket clip.
> 
> I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.



Which is true of any weapon that is not empty hands.  Once a person introduces a weapon into a fight, they do several things at once.

First, they create a liability which must now be defended.  That is, a screwdriver, knife, flashlight, gun, etc, can be used by the assailant as well as by the person defending themselves against aggression.  The aggressor will try to take it away and use it against the defender.  The defender now must not only defend themselves, but the weapon.

Second, hand-held weapons in general (not always and in all ways, but quite often) disable the hand hand holding the weapon in terms of using it to do other things.  You have taken what is for most of us the free use of two hands, and tied one of them behind your back, figuratively speaking.

Third, when a weapon is introduced, the chances that it will be employed for its intended purpose go up exponentially.  If needed to defend against deadly force, of course, this is understandable.  If, however, it is introduced as a magic wand, which so many people think it is, it has increased the chances that it will be used, and perhaps not in a way that serves the interests of the person defending themselves.  It is a bell that is hard to unring.  Draw a pistol, and you are now in a gunfight - like it or not.

I'm not against weapons.  I think most people don't know enough about how to use them correctly or effectively to carry them, and I include myself in that category.  I don't train with knives, unlike some true experts we have here on MT (I mean that with great respect, not being snarky).  I am more likely to have a knife taken from me and used to cut or stab me than to use it effectively or well, or even legally.  The same is true of people who carry guns.  Booger-eatin' morons, for the most part, based on my experiences.  Some of them I've run into at the range are so dangerous that when they appear, I leave because their lack of understanding of even basic safety terrifies me. 

Yes, I know there are experts who train often and well and are in fact experts with their weapons.  I'm not one of them and chances are quite high most of the rest of us are not either.  There are better ways to kill yourself than by whipping out a tactical something-or-other and having it taken away and jammed up your jaxie.  My 2 cents.


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## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> What I mean by finger breaker is.  If the attacker can get control of it he only has to twist and your finger is locked into it and now can be twisted and broken.



Like a trigger guard on a gun. Which can get caught during a disarm.


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## CB Jones

And if you end up wrestling with the attacker you now have to wrestle with a closed fist because you can't risk the light dangling from your finger being grabbed by the attacker.


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## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> What I mean by finger breaker is.  If the attacker can get control of it he only has to twist and your finger is locked into it and now can be twisted and broken.



As @drop bear said, it's no different than a gun, however there are 2 issues not addressed...

1. The tip of flash light protruding is very short so getting such control is problematic.
2. The first part of learning to use weapons is weapon retention.  If not any weapon is a danger to the user, especially in close combat.


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## CB Jones

Juany118 said:


> As @drop bear said, it's no different than a gun,



Sure, but the trigger guard provides a certain protection from accidental discharge.....a protection that is worth the risk.  The flashlight does not have the risk of accidental discharge so there is no need for a guard.



Juany118 said:


> The tip of flash light protruding is very short so getting such control is problematic.



Sure grabbing just for the flashlight, but an attacker can grab the arm and then physically pry it from your grasp in which they now not only have control of your arm but pain compliance as well.



Juany118 said:


> The first part of learning to use weapons is weapon retention. If not any weapon is a danger to the user, especially in close combat.



Sure, but you also need the ability to disengage from the weapon if need be and have the ability to transition to another weapon or create distance/seek cover and/or concealment.


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## Psilent Knight

Bill Mattocks said:


> hand-held weapons in general (not always and in all ways, but quite often) disable the hand hand holding the weapon in terms of using it to do other things.  You have taken what is for most of us the free use of two hands, and tied one of them behind your back, figuratively speaking.



But the trade off is an equaliser at worst and a combative advantage at best. Not to mention minimizing the risk of injury to the hand holding the weapon (due to not punching a skull or a really hard head). I think there's reward that comes with the risk.


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## drop bear

And being able to see in the dark. Which is an underrated defensive skill of its own.


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## Bill Mattocks

Psilent Knight said:


> But the trade off is an equaliser at worst and a combative advantage at best. Not to mention minimizing the risk of injury to the hand holding the weapon (due to not punching a skull or a really hard head). I think there's reward that comes with the risk.



There is a potential of a reward, which is why carrying a weapon is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, my caveats still apply.  The fight changes when you're armed.  It may not change in ways that favor you.  And if you can't be arsed to train with that weapon (I mean the generic you, not you personally), then your weapon is a distinct liability.


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## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> Sure, but the trigger guard provides a certain protection from accidental discharge.....a protection that is worth the risk.  The flashlight does not have the risk of accidental discharge so there is no need for a guard.



You are missing his point here.  I occasionally teach firearm disarms, both executing and preventing (as an active LEO).  He is referring that your finger can be broken by the trigger guard, the issue isn't the accidental discharge.  I teach this because while some officer's do instinctively shoot to prevent this scenario, some instinctively "freeze" because of their personality type.



> Sure grabbing just for the flashlight, but an attacker can grab the arm and then physically pry it from your grasp in which they now not only have control of your arm but pain compliance as well.



It actually isn't difficult, under those circumstances, to remove your finger from the trigger guard, or in this case the ring feature. It's simply a matter of training so that you don't forget to remove the finger.  What works for the pistol works for the ring feature. If they are managing to gain control of the arm you remove the finger.  In the case of the light I would actually let them have it if they gained such control.  Even in "civilian mode" I carry many more tools so I am not that concerned if they get my light.



> Sure, but you also need the ability to disengage from the weapon if need be and have the ability to transition to another weapon or create distance/seek cover and/or concealment.



read above.  part of your training with any weapon except, imo, a firearm, should be a preparedness and willingness to disengage and transition to another tool.

Maybe its my lifestyle.  I will be almost 50 this year and since 19 I have been either a soldier or a LEO.  So I think of such things via my personal prism.  I will admit that there are tools that suit such professionals better than civilians and sometimes I forget that fact.  Maybe this is such a case?


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## Juany118

I think people also forget the purpose of a tactical light in this context.  Again maybe just me projecting my personal experience.






If it is in a lighted condition I am pulling another of my other tools.  I would only pull the light in an environment where the actual brightness of the light is an advantage.  That is just how my mind works though.  I always have a tactical knife (which has a window break and ring feature) so when closed I have an impact tool on me when I leave the house and only take the light if I expect to be out after dark or I am going to work. /Shrug


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## drop bear

You hammer fist guys in the head with the hard bit. Not exactly rocket science.

It is where you get fancy that leads people into trouble in my opinion.


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## CB Jones

Juany,

We will agree to disagree then.

I prefer a normal tactical flashlight without the finger ring.


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## drop bear

Juany118 said:


> I think people also forget the purpose of a tactical light in this context.  Again maybe just me projecting my personal experience.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is in a lighted condition I am pulling another of my other tools.  I would only pull the light in an environment where the actual brightness of the light is an advantage.  That is just how my mind works though.  I always have a tactical knife (which has a window break and ring feature) so when closed I have an impact tool on me when I leave the house and only take the light if I expect to be out after dark or I am going to work. /Shrug



Do you think somebody out there is paying a lot of money for a tactical torch tactical knife tactical tactics course.

And gets shine a light in their face and then punch them in the head?


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## Psilent Knight

Bill Mattocks said:


> There is a potential of a reward, which is why carrying a weapon is not necessarily a bad thing.  However, my caveats still apply.  The fight changes when you're armed.  It may not change in ways that favor you.  And if you can't be arsed to train with that weapon (I mean the generic you, not you personally), then your weapon is a distinct liability.



No argument from me. I don't necessarily disagree with the general view you've presented. I will like to say that I agree with @Juany118 on two things he's said in this discussion; 1) Weapon retention should be the FIRST thing a person learns when learning to use a weapon and 2) Specifically with the tactical flashlight under discussion (and you could say other tac-lights of the same length as the one we are discussing), your assailant possibly getting hold of the light while your fist is clutched around it is much, much easier said than done. I would say the same applies to most palm/pocket sticks.


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## Psilent Knight

Juany118 said:


> With this tool not really.  It is a possibility with a karambit, say as you slash it gets stuck in a bone, however with this you either punch or do an icepick like "stab."



Juany118 I see a couple of problems with this. The first issue is that this tactical flashlight is not a karambit. In fact it looks to me like the _ONLY THING_ that this flashlight has in common with a karambit is the finger ring. But the fact remains that it is not a karambit and I just don't know if it's wise to treat it as though it is a karambit when it's not. And the finger ring makes a little more sense to me for the karambit than it does for the flashlight.

The second issue is how to operate the pressure switch. From what I gathered from the video you turn the torch off/on the same as any standard tactical torch which means it would be best to hold the light in the hammerfist grip in order to effortlessly turn the light off/on under pressure. Something that is either difficult or impossible to do if holding it in the "icepick" grip.

EDIT: A third issue that I see with the stabbing/icepick grip is that physiologically I believe it is more practical to use a hammerfist grip and hammer strikes with a tactical flashlight (as well as a palm stick/pocket stick) when under pressure. An icepick or stabbing grip only makes sense to me if the tool/weapon being used is primarily designed to stab.


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## Psilent Knight

CB Jones said:


> Pocket clip.
> 
> I don't want a flashlight secured to my hand that a suspect can grab and use to control my arm.



I too would take a pocket clip over a lanyard if I had to choose. But I personally don't have anything against lanyards especially if the length of the flashlight makes it near impossible for a bad guy to get a good grasp of it and the good guy has sufficiently trained in weapon retention. Something I do agree with Juany118.


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## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> You hammer fist guys in the head with the hard bit. Not exactly rocket science.
> 
> It is where you get fancy that leads people into trouble in my opinion.



I agree with you that getting fancy is what lands people in hot water. I also prefer the hammer fist grip and hammer fist strike when using the tactical flashlight. I even agree that it's not_ rocket science_.

BUT......

I do think a person should train in using their tactical light in combative situations. And they should train it often. Especially things such as rapid deployment before the poop hits the fan, rapid deployment under pressure (after the poop had already hit the fan), targeting, footwork, working angles, scenario training and of course weapon retention. We should keep in mind that the bad guy is not gonna just stand there and let us hammer fist the hell out of him. He will be moving, he will be fighting back. I don't want to develop a mindset that just because a hammer fist is physiologically pragmatic that it means it is automatically instinctive.



CB Jones said:


> Juany,
> 
> We will agree to disagree then.
> 
> I prefer a normal tactical flashlight without the finger ring.



I too prefer a tactical flashlight with the finger ring. Especially since the tactical flashlight is a tactical flashlight and not a karambit. But I do see the value in the everyday experiences for the past 29 or 30 years @Juany118 talks about as a LEO. I do agree with him about the importance of training weapon retention and that the length of the flashlight (along with the aforementioned weapon retention abilities) make it problematic for the bad guy to gain control or possession of it. 

Most important of all is the video he recently posted as a reminder to us all the purpose of a tactical light in this context. I like the idea of being able to strike with the flashlight but it's PRIMARY purpose is the disorientation factor under low lit conditions.


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## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> I agree with you that getting fancy is what lands people in hot water. I also prefer the hammer fist grip and hammer fist strike when using the tactical flashlight. I even agree that it's not_ rocket science_.
> 
> BUT......
> 
> I do think a person should train in using their tactical light in combative situations. And they should train it often. Especially things such as rapid deployment before the poop hits the fan, rapid deployment under pressure (after the poop had already hit the fan), targeting, footwork, working angles, scenario training and of course weapon retention. We should keep in mind that the bad guy is not gonna just stand there and let us hammer fist the hell out of him. He will be moving, he will be fighting back. I don't want to develop a mindset that just because a hammer fist is physiologically pragmatic that it means it is automatically instinctive.
> 
> 
> 
> I too prefer a tactical flashlight with the finger ring. Especially since the tactical flashlight is a tactical flashlight and not a karambit. But I do see the value in the everyday experiences for the past 29 or 30 years @Juany118 talks about as a LEO. I do agree with him about the importance of training weapon retention and that the length of the flashlight (along with the aforementioned weapon retention abilities) make it problematic for the bad guy to gain control or possession of it.
> 
> Most important of all is the video he recently posted as a reminder to us all the purpose of a tactical light in this context. I like the idea of being able to strike with the flashlight but it's PRIMARY purpose is the disorientation factor under low lit conditions.



I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close. 

I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.


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## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.
> 
> I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.



I agree on the disorientation in my experience just a good bright flashlight that blinds the attacker/suspect and hides you works just as good if not better.

I don't see the strobe causing more disruption in the attackers OODA Loop.

Also, the idea of having to train flashlight retention seems a little pointless.

You took my flashlight....surprise my next flashlight has a Glock attached to it.  Lol


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## Brian R. VanCise

Okay the ring feature on the karambit is about retention.  With a karambit a blade is attached to the handle.  That blade is hard to grab and apply leverage to break the finger.  Now, I am not saying it is impossible to leverage a karambit and break the holders finger just that it would be hard to do in a very dynamic situation.  There are disarm techniques though that do this. The edged advantage of the karambit allows you to cut someone if they are grabbing your knife bearing hand provided you know what to do.  Even if a karambit bearing hand is slashed or the person utilizing loses a finger or two they can still function with it as long as the finger in the ring is not cut off.  You can even form a master grip on a handgun because of the size of a knife with most karambits and I have absolutely no problem functioning with a shotgun or long gun with a karambit in my off hand. This makes the karambit a very effective and efficient knife.


I think this is more about someone trying to come up with some thing that looks cool/fancy and has that shtick to sell to the masses.  Hey, we invented the karambit tactical flashlight.  Yay us!  I do not think you need a retention ring on a tactical flashlight and because it is not a blade and you cannot cut your way out when interdicted.  I don't see it as valuable.  Just another schtick in a long line of someone trying to sell some thing.  Not to mention that it would be possible to get your finger broken if your opponent gained control of the flashlight somehow.

No one disagrees with the advantage a tactical flashlight brings as a blinding agent and or a force multiplier.  That is not what this conversation is about.  I know that I simply would not be without one.  Whether working or not.  I can remember one instance when my family and I were at the Grand Canyon and after having a fancy meal at one of there restaurants we went outside and it was pitch black.  Fortunately I had my light and we were able to avoid going off the path and falling to our deaths. My kid's were young at this time.  The advantage of having a light is monumental in any low light situation. 

We can also look at the usage of the ring/tactical flashlight in question and think about having to transition to another tool/weapon such as a long gun and the time if might take to get the ring feature off quickly to do so. It is not much fun to operate a long gun with a tactical flashlight in your off hand.  Very, very challenging to do so if not just plain stupid.  Your long gun/shot gun should have a mounted light.  Much easier just to drop a tactical flashlight without the ring feature and transition to your long gun with a mounted light feature.  I would also look at the use with a handgun you could certainly use the FBI method of use with a flashlight, you could also use Neck Index technique and the Harries Technique.  You could not however use the Surefire technique to form the master grip on your firearm.  If you wanted a solid master grip on your handgun you simply could not do it with this ring feature tactical flashlight due to the cylindrical nature of a tactical flashlight.  You would again have to discard it which would take some more time to do so than if you had your non-ring feature tactical flashlight. 

Tactical Flashlight Firearm Techniques 

Handgun Master Grip

Possible broken finger if opponent gains control, slowed down in transitions to any other tool, Cannot grip long gun, shotgun or handgun with a master grip without getting rid of it.    I'm just not seeing the advantage of this ring feature!


----------



## CB Jones

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay the ring feature on the karambit is about retention.  With a karambit a blade is attached to the handle.  That blade is hard to grab and apply leverage to break the finger.  Now, I am not saying it is impossible to leverage a karambit and break the holders finger just that it would be hard to do in a very dynamic situation.  There are disarm techniques though that do this. The edged advantage of the karambit allows you to cut someone if they are grabbing your knife bearing hand provided you know what to do.  Even if a karambit bearing hand is slashed or the person utilizing loses a finger or two they can still function with it as long as the finger in the ring is not cut off.  You can even form a master grip on a handgun because of the size of a knife with most karambits and I have absolutely no problem functioning with a shotgun or long gun with a karambit in my off hand. This makes the karambit a very effective and efficient knife.
> 
> 
> I think this is more about someone trying to come up with some thing that looks cool/fancy and has that shtick to sell to the masses.  Hey, we invented the karambit tactical flashlight.  Yay us!  I do not think you need a retention ring on a tactical flashlight and because it is not a blade and you cannot cut your way out when interdicted.  I don't see it as valuable.  Just another schtick in a long line of someone trying to sell some thing.  Not to mention that it would be possible to get your finger broken if your opponent gained control of the flashlight somehow.
> 
> No one disagrees with the advantage a tactical flashlight brings as a blinding agent and or a force multiplier.  That is not what this conversation is about.  I know that I simply would not be without one.  Whether working or not.  I can remember one instance when my family and I were at the Grand Canyon and after having a fancy meal at one of there restaurants we went outside and it was pitch black.  Fortunately I had my light and we were able to avoid going off the path and falling to our deaths. My kid's were young at this time.  The advantage of having a light is monumental in any low light situation.
> 
> We can also look at the usage of the ring/tactical flashlight in question and think about having to transition to another tool/weapon such as a long gun and the time if might take to get the ring feature off quickly to do so. It is not much fun to operate a long gun with a tactical flashlight in your off hand.  Very, very challenging to do so if not just plain stupid.  Your long gun/shot gun should have a mounted light.  Much easier just to drop a tactical flashlight without the ring feature and transition to your long gun with a mounted light feature.  I would also look at the use with a handgun you could certainly use the FBI method of use with a flashlight, you could also use Neck Index technique and the Harries Technique.  You could not however use the Surefire technique to form the master grip on your firearm.  If you wanted a solid master grip on your handgun you simply could not do it with this ring feature tactical flashlight due to the cylindrical nature of a tactical flashlight.  You would again have to discard it which would take some more time to do so than if you had your non-ring feature tactical flashlight.
> 
> Tactical Flashlight Firearm Techniques
> 
> Handgun Master Grip
> 
> Possible broken finger if opponent gains control, slowed down in transitions to any other tool, Cannot grip long gun, shotgun or handgun with a master grip without getting rid of it.    I'm just not seeing the advantage of this ring feature!



Also, would add that with a Karambit there is a reluctance to attempt to grab because of the danger of being cut.

There is a reluctance to grab a gun because of the danger of being shot.

Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated.  Your attacker can be much more aggressive toward the light that is being shined in his face.


----------



## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> Juany,
> 
> We will agree to disagree then.
> 
> I prefer a normal tactical flashlight without the finger ring.



Fair enough .  We all have preferred tools.


----------



## CB Jones

Juany118 said:


> Fair enough .  We all have preferred tools.



Absolutely. Hopefully it works for you.

Currently sitting in a opioids overdose training course about using Narcan.

Fentanyl......scary stuff.

Crazy that they are just now issuing Narcan to us to carry


----------



## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> I agree on the disorientation in my experience just a good bright flashlight that blinds the attacker/suspect and hides you works just as good if not better.
> 
> I don't see the strobe causing more disruption in the attackers OODA Loop.
> 
> Also, the idea of having to train flashlight retention seems a little pointless.
> 
> You took my flashlight....surprise my next flashlight has a Glock attached to it.  Lol



Well the reason for mentioning the light as a tool beyond illumination, imo, is for less lethal scenarios only.  If you are in a position where you are prepared to destroy the target, and are legally permitted to do so, the blinding/disorientation of the flashlight seems redundant in my mind.

As for the results, there have been studies regarding the issues and whether you go from blinding to disorientation is based on two factors, 1. the lumens behind the light and 2. the flicker rate of the strobe.  #2 is often missed because all flicker rates are not created equal.  Here is a decent article on the topic Tactical Strobes | Torchguy | Online Shop.

Interestingly enough this effect was first noticed in the aviation sector and as I recall it resulted on the flicker rates of lights on aircraft being altered because of the potential disorienting effect of the lights.  Heck there was an episode of Pokemon that caused seizures in children because of the flicker rate... The Banned Pokémon Episode That Gave Children Seizures


----------



## Juany118

CB Jones said:


> Absolutely. Hopefully it works for you.
> 
> Currently sitting in a opioids overdose training course about using Narcan.
> 
> Fentanyl......scary stuff.
> 
> Crazy that they are just now issuing Narcan to us to carry



yeah, my town currently has the dubious distinction of the most Narcan saves by LEOs in the County.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.
> 
> I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.



I don't bother with the strobe feature on my flashlight either. I'm basically not sold on the strobe feature. I keep my light set on high mode. I only bother with the low setting around the house when using it to look for stuff. And the strobe setting I don't deal with at all.

As far as the disorientation or momentary blindness factor, well I am sold on that. I think a sudden and unexpected flash of 500 lumens of light right directly in the face of someone with night adapted vision is something not to be overlooked or underestimated. I've accidentally shined it in my own face (at 500 lumens) in my house, during the daytime with the bedroom light on. And...well.Trust me! Just, you know, trust me on this one.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Juany118 said:


> As for the results, there have been studies regarding the issues and whether you go from blinding to disorientation is based on two factors, 1. the lumens behind the light and 2. the flicker rate of the strobe.  #2 is often missed because all flicker rates are not created equal.



While I do believe the studies that I have personally read myself and agree that the strobe can possibly disorient a bad guy, I'm just not sold on it being the unstoppable light setting to use against the bad guy that it's being marketed as. I think a steady light would be much better for the job than strobing someone. (Hey, is _strobing_ a word? )

Two issues that I have in particular with the strobe feature are 1) depending on your surroundings when the strobe is operated, the person _with_ the flashlight may also be affected by the strobe light. This is not what we want. And 2) just like the strobe light makes it difficult for the bad guy to notice the smallest movements you make, _you_ (as the holder of the flashlight) can also miss subtle movements that _he_ makes. That is, if you're somewhere that brings issue #1 into play when you use it. Again, something to always be avoided. In a self defense situation I want to _maximize_ my chances of surviving with little to no harm while _minimizing_ the bad guy's chances of doing the same.


----------



## Buka

CB Jones said:


> Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated.



That's a great line.


----------



## drop bear

What people who make disorienting light and sound weapons do not understand about the people they are intending to use them on.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> What people who make disorienting light and sound weapons do not understand about the people they are intending to use them on.



No comparison. Two completely different animals.


----------



## Paul_D

CB Jones said:


> Whereas there is no reluctance to grab your flashlight for fear of being illuminated.  Your attacker can be much more aggressive toward the light that is being shined in his face.


However, he can grab a knife or a gun becasue he can see it, whereas if you are shining your light in his eyes is he going to be abel to see well enough to grab the torch?


----------



## CB Jones

Paul_D said:


> However, he can grab a knife or a gun becasue he can see it, whereas if you are shining your light in his eyes is he going to be abel to see well enough to grab the torch?



Yes.

Police have been shining flashlights in suspects eyes for decades and have still found themselves being attacked.

Light creates a poor barrier against someone rushing you and the source of the light makes for a good target.


----------



## Blindside

Several people have brought up the potential negatives of the ring if the opponent gets close enough to you to attempt a disarm.  How many people here have actually tried to disarm a kerambit from someone who doesn't want you to take it?  It is nearly freaking impossible, the blade isn't in a good position to get leverage off of it and it will require really really solid control of the arm and hand of that guy.  I have never succeeded in training and I train for and against kerambits more than your average bear.

The flashlight is not a kerambit, I totally get that, but the difficulties on the disarm are similar, you don't have a long lever to work with and to get a disarm will require you isolate my hand arm to get the flashlight free.  If you want to waste that much of your time and defensive resources on a non-lethal threat device, that seems like a bad allocation.  Because while you are trying to isolate that flashlight my other hand is freed up to do whatever, this may be a worthwhile trade if the weapon is a gun or a knife or a light saber, but it isn't if it is a flashlight.  If you get that close to the guy wrap up the arm and beat on him.  The finger ring only comes into play as a liability if the other guys gets a disarm, and disarms are haaaard to get.      

As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly.  It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight.  I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them.  These are brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other.  One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor, the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides.  That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.


----------



## CB Jones

Blindside said:


> Several people have brought up the potential negatives of the ring if the opponent gets close enough to you to attempt a disarm.  How many people here have actually tried to disarm a kerambit from someone who doesn't want you to take it?  It is nearly freaking impossible, the blade isn't in a good position to get leverage off of it and it will require really really solid control of the arm and hand of that guy.  I have never succeeded in training and I train for and against kerambits more than your average bear.
> 
> The flashlight is not a kerambit, I totally get that, but the difficulties on the disarm are similar, you don't have a long lever to work with and to get a disarm will require you isolate my hand arm to get the flashlight free.  If you want to waste that much of your time and defensive resources on a non-lethal threat device, that seems like a bad allocation.  Because while you are trying to isolate that flashlight my other hand is freed up to do whatever, this may be a worthwhile trade if the weapon is a gun or a knife or a light saber, but it isn't if it is a flashlight.  If you get that close to the guy wrap up the arm and beat on him.  The finger ring only comes into play as a liability if the other guys gets a disarm, and disarms are haaaard to get.
> 
> As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly.  It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight.  I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them.  These are brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other.  One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor, the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides.  That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.



I get what you are saying Blindside....but what is the reward that outweighs the risk of having that finger loop?  

I would like the light if it was minus the finger loop.  The finger loop just adds a risk that isn't needed.

If someone is wanting to disarm me from the flashlight why do I want a flashlight I have to fight to retain?


----------



## Blindside

CB Jones said:


> I get what you are saying Blindside....but what is the reward that outweighs the risk of having that finger loop?
> 
> I would like the light if it was minus the finger loop.  The finger loop just adds a risk that isn't needed.
> 
> If someone is wanting to disarm me from the flashlight why do I want a flashlight I have to fight to retain?



I think the risk of being disarmed is so low that the risk of the fingerloop being harmful is essentially immaterial.  I wouldn't drive my car I was worried about probabilities that low.


----------



## CB Jones

Blindside said:


> I think the risk of being disarmed is so low that the risk of the fingerloop being harmful is essentially immaterial.  I wouldn't drive my car I was worried about probabilities that low.



Then like Juany we will agree to disagree.

I have seen too many use of force encounters where as soon as the officer struck the attacker with his flashlight/or other tool and all the attackers attention going straight to the flashlight and on taking it away.

Would rather be able to just release and take the guy right down instead of fighting to retain it.


----------



## CB Jones

Instead of a finger ring I would rather removable strike bevels on both ends.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Although I'm not a fan of the finger ring I still see the importance of attaining weapon retention skills regardless of the weapon. But one thing about that finger ring is that the overall size and length of the flashlight *held by a moving and tightly clenched fist *(in addition to the weapon retention abilities mentioned) make it a very unnecessary and immaterial feature. Not to mention there will be circumstances where retaining the weapon would be the best thing to and other times when dropping that weapon would be the best thing to do. That finger ring would make it almost impossible to do so. 

Now that I think about it I actually change my opinion on the possible usefulness of a lanyard for this very reason.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Instead of a finger ring I would rather removable strike bevels on both ends.



See. Not a fan of the bevels. I would have put rubberized ends on so it works like a sap. Any fight with beveled edges here would be a GBH.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> Although I'm not a fan of the finger ring I still see the importance of attaining weapon retention skills regardless of the weapon. But one thing about that finger ring is that the overall size and length of the flashlight *held by a moving and tightly clenched fist *(in addition to the weapon retention abilities mentioned) make it a very unnecessary and immaterial feature. Not to mention there will be circumstances where retaining the weapon would be the best thing to and other times when dropping that weapon would be the best thing to do. That finger ring would make it almost impossible to do so.
> 
> Now that I think about it I actually change my opinion on the possible usefulness of a lanyard for this very reason.



A lanyard could be made to break before it tears your arm off.


----------



## Blindside

CB Jones said:


> Then like Juany we will agree to disagree.
> 
> I have seen too many use of force encounters where as soon as the officer struck the attacker with his flashlight/or other tool and all the attackers attention going straight to the flashlight and on taking it away.
> 
> Would rather be able to just release and take the guy right down instead of fighting to retain it.



Would I rather the other guy be spending his attention on the flashlight and taking it away or alternately hitting me and trying to pound my head in?  I'd rather he spend his time focusing on the flashlight, the advantage goes to me.  I am not a fan of the ring either, and I'm pretty certain I am the only person on this thread who has actually handled any version of it, but the reason for my not really liking it has nothing to do with the chance that he will break my finger after he pulls it out of my hand.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Blindside said:


> the reason for my not really liking it has nothing to do with the chance that he will break my finger after he pulls it out of my hand.



As for me I would be concerned that my finger can possibly get broken during the altercation regardless if the bad guy is trying to take it or not. But I do see your point.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Bill Mattocks said:


> I dislike the word 'tactical' and steer clear of anything so described.  A flashlight is a nice thing to have, and it can certainly be used as a weapon, but I don't carry one in my pocket or in a holster.
> 
> As with most weapons that are thinly-disguised as tools, it's not fooling law enforcement.  If a person has a screwdriver in their pocket and there isn't a repair taking place nearby, it's a burglar tool or a concealed weapon.  So too with a 'tactical' flashlight.  Nobody is fooled by "Look, it's just a flashlight!"



I agree that the word 'tactical' is simply a buzz word that adds $ to the amount of the light.  It turns a $5 Ebay CREE LED flashlight into a $59 'tacticool' flashlight used by the Navy SEALS.  For less than $20 you can get a Convoy S2+ with L,M,H, Strobe and SOS for add a few $ and get a Astrolux S1 that has all of that and a few more features.  Quite useful as a defensive tool.

As for L.E., doesn't matter whether it 'fools' them or not.  It's not classified as a weapon so unless they're using it in the commission of a crime there isn't anything that they can do about it.  You can go on a plane,train or boat with one in your pocket just as you could with a Sharpie marker.  Both perfectly legal.  In fact, I don't go on a cruise ship without one in case of electrical problems below deck (which happens more frequently than you'd think).  

A flashlight is a fantastic defensive 'tool' and I recommend them in all of my SD classes.

Flashlight As Part Of Your Best Defense


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Kong Soo Do said:


> As for L.E., doesn't matter whether it 'fools' them or not.  It's not classified as a weapon so unless they're using it in the commission of a crime there isn't anything that they can do about it.  You can go on a plane,train or boat with one in your pocket just as you could with a Sharpie marker.  Both perfectly legal.  In fact, I don't go on a cruise ship without one in case of electrical problems below deck (which happens more frequently than you'd think).
> 
> A flashlight is a fantastic defensive 'tool' and I recommend them in all of my SD classes.
> 
> Flashlight As Part Of Your Best Defense



I disagree. An item is a weapon depending on how it is used and the intent of the user. 

A guy with a baseball bat in his back seat might be transporting an illegal weapon, or it might be just a piece of athletic gear. A lot depends on whether he is on his way to a ball game or a riot, er, public protest.

Items aren't classified as weapons or not weapons other than guns and sometimes knives. What makes them weapons is the intent of the user. While it can be hard to prove in court unless you catch them in the act, try showing up at an, er, public protest dressed in black with a face mask and a baseball bat and see if your 'not a weapon' gets confiscated or not. Take a 4 cell mag lite to a concert, see if the cops let you in.

I object to non cops and non lawyers telling idiot consumers that they can carry thus and so because it's 'not a weapon'. Anything can be a weapon in the eyes of the law, and it's been shown in court over and over again. Companies selling tactical flashlights aren't going to go to court to defend you.


----------



## Psilent Knight

AFAIK an item isn't a weapon if it isn't categorically classified as one in state and local laws. In fact, I believe there are three standard categories in most state laws in the US; a) legal weapons, b) illegal weapons and c) instruments of crime. I fail to see how a flashlight (with or without crenulated bezel) can be classified in any of the above mentioned categories, except for c) _IF_ the light is, in fact, purposely used as an instrument of crime.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> AFAIK an item isn't a weapon if it isn't categorically classified as one in state and local laws. In fact, I believe there are three standard categories in most state laws in the US; a) legal weapons, b) illegal weapons and c) instruments of crime. I fail to see how a flashlight (with or without crenulated bezel) can be classified in any of the above mentioned categories, except for c) _IF_ the light is, in fact, purposely used as an instrument of crime.


Over here it would effect intent. Which is the difference between manslaughter and murder.

You guys have weird rules on intent. So no idea if it is the same.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Bill Mattocks said:


> I disagree. An item is a weapon depending on how it is used and the intent of the user.



L.E. aren't mind readers so unless they (we) roll up on someone in the act of using a flashlight to attack someone the intent cannot be guessed.  A person walking down the street with a flashlight on their person cannot be assumed to have the intent to use it as a weapon.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> A guy with a baseball bat in his back seat might be transporting an illegal weapon, or it might be just a piece of athletic gear. A lot depends on whether he is on his way to a ball game or a riot, er, public protest.



A guy with a BB bat in his back seat is simply a guy with a BB bat in his back seat.  L.E. can't assume he's on his way to a riot.  Thus it's legal and L.E. can't do anything one way or the other.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> Items aren't classified as weapons or not weapons other than guns and sometimes knives. What makes them weapons is the intent of the user.



And no one will know that intent unless they are caught using it in the commission of a crime.  So, a flashlight makes an excellent tool for anyone to carry.  It allows you to find something in the dark, attract attention if needed, light up an area your approaching or as a defensive tool.  No rule or law against someone having a BB bat in the back seat or a flashlight in their pocket.  And there shouldn't be as this is free country.  

And L.E. has to be VERY careful in what they do and don't do and often get themselves jammed up because they're stupid and let the badge go to their head.  I say this as a Deputy of 26 years service.  As a Deputy, I work for a Sheriff's Office.  And Sheriff's Offices are the ONLY Constitutional L.E. agency in the U.S. with all other being set up by statute.  Thus it falls to Sheriff's Offices to uphold citizens Constitutional rights above anything.  As an example, and to illustrate the point, a large local P.D. arrested a man a couple of years ago.  He was in a public county park.  He was fishing.  He was armed with a side arm that was openly carried.  In this state (Florida) a citizen is allowed to openly carry a firearm while engaged in specific activities;  camping, hunting, fishing etc.  The man had a CCW but was NOT required to have one to openly carry while fishing.  An uninformed citizen called the P.D. who responded.  I say uninformed because the man was fishing and not openly waving his gun around thus he was within his rights and the citizen should have known this (their ignorance isn't an excuse).  Thus no issue.  The P.D. arrived and observed the man fishing.  They snuck up behind him and tried to disarm him physically.  The man almost struck the Officer because in that moment he didn't know it was an Officer.  All he knew was that someone was grabbing his gun.  He stopped short of popping the Officer when he saw it was an Officer (but would have been justified if he did put an elbow into this Officer's face as the Officer had exceeded his authority and was in fact committing a crime against this man).  They cuffed the man and confiscated his openly carried firearm.  Further they confiscated a firearm in his P.O.V. and ran the serial numbers (which is illegal and against department policy as there was no P.C. to consider they were stolen or used in the commission of a crime at that specific time).  A supervisor found out what was going on and ordered the man released and his weapons returned.  The next day the city attorney formally apologized to the man.  That P.D. is now facing a law suit for violating this man's Constitutional and State rights and ALL Officer's in the department have to undergo mandatory training.  They will likely have to cough up some $ for violating this man's rights.  

So to the point, a flashlight isn't classified as a weapon.  It cannot be assumed to be a weapon.  As such, it is a very useful tool for a person to carry for a multitude of reasons, some of which I've listed above.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> Over here it would effect intent. Which is the difference between manslaughter and murder.
> 
> You guys have weird rules on intent. So no idea if it is the same.



Yeah, I'm aware of the laws here but it's HOW they are interpreted and applied and WHO is interpreting and applying them as they see fit that really puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'm speaking right now from the P.O.V. of a law abiding citizen who insists on his right to defend himself and his family against the sociopaths and scum that are everywhere in this country.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> Yeah, I'm aware of the laws here but it's HOW they are interpreted and applied and WHO is interpreting and applying them as they see fit that really puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'm speaking right now from the P.O.V. of a law abiding citizen who insists on his right to defend himself and his family against the sociopaths and scum that are everywhere in this country.



It depends if you consider your right to defend your family more important that your family.

You can't defend anyone from jail.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> It depends if you consider your right to defend your family more important that your family.
> 
> *You can't defend anyone from jail.*



Good Point.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Tactical pen

The 'tactical' pen is also a useful defensive tool.  Many have a glass breaker tip so it's useful in and accident for rescue purposes.  Stay away from the 'tacticool' pens that are free but have a ridiculous S&H fee.  You can get a good pen on Ebay for $2.  I bought three and they actually had good ink.  

Very useful and as with a flashlight and Sharpie they are legal to have in your pocket.


----------



## Psilent Knight

@Juany118  may I ask you a personal question? Are you in anyway involved with or connected to The Ultimate Knife  group who market the Strobeforce D-TAC 1000?


----------



## Psilent Knight

I had asked earlier in the thread which would everyone rather have between a pocket clip or a lanyard on their tactical flashlight (pocket clip for me btw). But I have a different question which I think is often debated.......

Strobe vs High output mode. Which do you prefer and would rather have?

I personally prefer the high output function on my flashlight and don't bother with the strobe function.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Pocket clip for me, or holster.

For defensive use I have mine set on strobe for a couple of reasons:  First, not only does it hurt like high intensity (which strobe is usually the highest lumen setting) but I think it can also be disorientating.  Second, strobe is more likely to attract attention in a dark setting.  In a SD situation I want to attract as much attention as possible.

On a side note, some folks don't like flashlights with 'blinky' functions such as SOS, strobe, beacon, bike flasher etc.  Personally, I'll take as many as I can get.  From a survival/emergency preparedness perspective it could save your life.  I talked with one guy who said if he had to he'd simply tap out SOS with the switch.  Not the best option.  An SOS option (or any blinky function) may have to operate for hours before it attracts attention/rescue.  Tapping it out for hours isn't the best use of time, energy or resources.  Plus if you're injured/sick or tending to someone injured/sick you don't have the time to sit there and tap it out over and over.  With a blinky function you click it, set it and tend to other matters.  Not everyone knows what SOS is these days (three long, three short, three long, three short etc) but blinky functions are normally at the highest lumen output and attract attention with the repetitiveness.  

From that perspective my favorites are the Convoy S2+, Astrolux S1, BLF A6, Nitecore SRT3 and the Nitecore EA11.  Instant access to whatever mode you prefer and memory.


----------



## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> @Juany118  may I ask you a personal question? Are you in anyway involved with or connected to The Ultimate Knife  group who market the Strobeforce D-TAC 1000?



Nope just a cop on the down hill to 50 who over the last couple years finally stopped saying "all I need are my hands, gun and baton" because I realized while I keep getting older "they keep getting younger."  So I did research.  The reason I landed on this one was...
1. I liked the research I saw on the potential effect of strobes and this light starts on strobe.
2. Reasonably priced compared to say Stream light or Surefire.
3. I was already accustomed to the ring feature as my EDC folder has one.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Kong Soo Do said:


> Pocket clip for me, or holster.
> 
> For defensive use I have mine set on strobe for a couple of reasons:  First, not only does it hurt like high intensity (which strobe is usually the highest lumen setting) but I think it can also be disorientating.



Yes, all of my flashlights that have a strobe function also strobe on the highest setting. The reason that I have recently come to be against the strobe setting_ in a SD situation_ is that I experimented with it after reading some research that suggest that the strobe function can be a setback to the person WITH the flashlight as well as against the bad guy. The reasons given were a) the strobe makes it difficult for the bad guy to detect your movements and distance from him. This is most certainly advantageous to the holder of the flashlight. BUT it can also have a slight disorientation on the person holding the flashlight as well and it can also make it difficult for that person to notice slight movements and distance changes that the bad guy makes. 

The one with the light still has the upper hand. But for me one of the goals in a SD situation is to maximize any and all advantages and minimize any and all disadvantages I may have in that situation. Even that slight downside with the strobe can be the difference between going home or going to the morgue that night. 

The reason this happens brings us to b) the environment has an effect on how the strobe bounces around. You can strobe someone standing in front of a car and the car window and the finish on the car itself can make it so that you feel a slight effect of the strobe. Even if you still have the upper hand as the holder of the flashlight you still do not want to give the bad guy any chances to do what he wants to do to you or your family. Looking for too long at the bad guy while you have your strobe light fixed on him will start to have a negative effect on you as well.

The most disconcerting reason I have read to say _'nay' _to the strobe setting is c) the holder of the flashlight may not be aware that he too is being ever so slightly affected by his own light. This lack of awareness makes it easier to miss certain movements that the bad guy makes and will have us thinking that we still hold all the chips in a SD situation.

I experimented with the strobe setting with my wife where I used the strobe setting while in our bedroom (since our room has walls, mirrors, desks, etc.) and sure enough I was not able to detect some of her movements that she made. I think another reason is because my own eyes were bothered and started hurting while I was looking at her trying to detect whatever movements I can. Because I had the light directed at her I was catching some of the after effects of the strobe as my eyes were fixated on her. I didn't like it. Not one bit. We cannot dictate when and where we may have to defend ourselves and if the strobe setting can have any cons at all to go with the pros then I will not use it. So far I haven't read any cons about using the regular high output setting. So my position is why not just go with the setting that has no cons at all rather than take any chances on a setting that does have cons? And also I'm still not convinced that the strobe setting would be better than the high setting. All of the cons that I have read about with the strobe do not exist with regular high output mode.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Second, strobe is more likely to attract attention in a dark setting.  In a SD situation I want to attract as much attention as possible.



This is the only reason I _MAY_ want to use a strobe setting in a SD situation and that's only if I can find a way to use it without being affected by it myself. And even still just because I am using the strobe function on my lights doesn't mean help will definitely come. Some people may see it and not give it a second thought.



Kong Soo Do said:


> On a side note, some folks don't like flashlights with 'blinky' functions such as SOS, strobe, beacon, bike flasher etc.  Personally, I'll take as many as I can get.  From a survival/emergency preparedness perspective it could save your life.  I talked with one guy who said if he had to he'd simply tap out SOS with the switch.  Not the best option.  An SOS option (or any blinky function) may have to operate for hours before it attracts attention/rescue.  Tapping it out for hours isn't the best use of time, energy or resources.  Plus if you're injured/sick or tending to someone injured/sick you don't have the time to sit there and tap it out over and over.  With a blinky function you click it, set it and tend to other matters.  Not everyone knows what SOS is these days (three long, three short, three long, three short etc) but blinky functions are normally at the highest lumen output and attract attention with the repetitiveness.



Same as above. This is the only reason I will want to use it. In fact, I would rather use the strobe function in the scenarios you described above than to use it in a SD situation.



Juany118 said:


> Nope just a cop on the down hill to 50 who over the last couple years finally stopped saying "all I need are my hands, gun and baton" because I realized while I keep getting older "they keep getting younger."  So I did research.



Okay, I didn't want to offend you if you were because I see that The Ultimate Knife has two tactical flashlights and they both only take CR123A batteries and it doesn't look like the rechargeable lithium ones which is something that has always bothered me with some of these companies that make tactical flashlights. IDK, I could be overlooking into this but it sometimes feels like a way to get more money from the consumer even after they already paid too much money for the overpriced flashlight itself. While you can certainly use CR123A batteries from where ever you can find them I have learned that most of these companies sell their own disposable CR123A batteries _"to go with THEIR flashlights"_. Although it may not be the popular view I prefer flashlights that require AA or AAA alkaline batteries that I can get from just about ANYWHERE. They are more readily available and typically cost less.

BTW...Come on man, 50 is far from over the hill. Cut it out will ya? 



Juany118 said:


> The reason I landed on this one was...
> 1. I liked the research I saw on the potential effect of strobes and this light starts on strobe.



Are you aware of the research that advise against strobes or suggest that strobes aren't what they are cracked up to be?



Juany118 said:


> 2. Reasonably priced compared to say Stream light or Surefire.



Yes, it is definitely reasonably priced compared to Stream Light and most certainly compared to Surefire (I believe the most overpriced lights on the market). But I still think it's overpriced compared to, let's say, Police Security Brand Flashlights. The high prices on these tactical lights nowadays, the insistence on using CR123A disposable batteries and lumens ranging above 300 are all the rage and all of which are completely unnecessary for CIVILIAN SD. I have no problem elaborating on this if anyone reading this post wishes for me to do so.



Juany118 said:


> 3. I was already accustomed to the ring feature as my EDC folder has one.



That makes plenty sense. The one thing about the ring feature that Jared Wihongi pointed out that I do find useful is that it makes it all the more easier to deploy it quickly and easily. That's about the only thing I can find that I like about it. If I could I would rather use the ring for quick deployment and that try to take my finger out of that ring ASAP to get ready for action.


----------



## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> Yes, all of my flashlights that have a strobe function also strobe on the highest setting. The reason that I have recently come to be against the strobe setting_ in a SD situation_ is that I experimented with it after reading some research that suggest that the strobe function can be a setback to the person WITH the flashlight as well as against the bad guy. The reasons given were a) the strobe makes it difficult for the bad guy to detect your movements and distance from him. This is most certainly advantageous to the holder of the flashlight. BUT it can also have a slight disorientation on the person holding the flashlight as well and it can also make it difficult for that person to notice slight movements and distance changes that the bad guy makes.
> 
> The one with the light still has the upper hand. But for me one of the goals in a SD situation is to maximize any and all advantages and minimize any and all disadvantages I may have in that situation. Even that slight downside with the strobe can be the difference between going home or going to the morgue that night.
> 
> The reason this happens brings us to b) the environment has an effect on how the strobe bounces around. You can strobe someone standing in front of a car and the car window and the finish on the car itself can make it so that you feel a slight effect of the strobe. Even if you still have the upper hand as the holder of the flashlight you still do not want to give the bad guy any chances to do what he wants to do to you or your family. Looking for too long at the bad guy while you have your strobe light fixed on him will start to have a negative effect on you as well.
> 
> The most disconcerting reason I have read to say _'nay' _to the strobe setting is c) the holder of the flashlight may not be aware that he too is being ever so slightly affected by his own light. This lack of awareness makes it easier to miss certain movements that the bad guy makes and will have us thinking that we still hold all the chips in a SD situation.
> 
> I experimented with the strobe setting with my wife where I used the strobe setting while in our bedroom (since our room has walls, mirrors, desks, etc.) and sure enough I was not able to detect some of her movements that she made. I think another reason is because my own eyes were bothered and started hurting while I was looking at her trying to detect whatever movements I can. Because I had the light directed at her I was catching some of the after effects of the strobe as my eyes were fixated on her. I didn't like it. Not one bit. We cannot dictate when and where we may have to defend ourselves and if the strobe setting can have any cons at all to go with the pros then I will not use it. So far I haven't read any cons about using the regular high output setting. So my position is why not just go with the setting that has no cons at all rather than take any chances on a setting that does have cons? And also I'm still not convinced that the strobe setting would be better than the high setting. All of the cons that I have read about with the strobe do not exist with regular high output mode.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the only reason I _MAY_ want to use a strobe setting in a SD situation and that's only if I can find a way to use it without being affected by it myself. And even still just because I am using the strobe function on my lights doesn't mean help will definitely come. Some people may see it and not give it a second thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above. This is the only reason I will want to use it. In fact, I would rather use the strobe function in the scenarios you described above than to use it in a SD situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I didn't want to offend you if you were because I see that The Ultimate Knife has two tactical flashlights and they both only take CR123A batteries and it doesn't look like the rechargeable lithium ones which is something that has always bothered me with some of these companies that make tactical flashlights. IDK, I could be overlooking into this but it sometimes feels like a way to get more money from the consumer even after they already paid too much money for the overpriced flashlight itself. While you can certainly use CR123A batteries from where ever you can find them I have learned that most of these companies sell their own disposable CR123A batteries _"to go with THEIR flashlights"_. Although it may not be the popular view I prefer flashlights that require AA or AAA alkaline batteries that I can get from just about ANYWHERE. They are more readily available and typically cost less.
> 
> BTW...Come on man, 50 is far from over the hill. Cut it out will ya?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you aware of the research that advise against strobes or suggest that strobes aren't what they are cracked up to be?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is definitely reasonably priced compared to Stream Light and most certainly compared to Surefire (I believe the most overpriced lights on the market). But I still think it's overpriced compared to, let's say, Police Security Brand Flashlights. The high prices on these tactical lights nowadays, the insistence on using CR123A disposable batteries and lumens ranging above 300 are all the rage and all of which are completely unnecessary for CIVILIAN SD. I have no problem elaborating on this if anyone reading this post wishes for me to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes plenty sense. The one thing about the ring feature that Jared Wihongi pointed out that I do find useful is that it makes it all the more easier to deploy it quickly and easily. That's about the only thing I can find that I like about it. If I could I would rather use the ring for quick deployment and that try to take my finger out of that ring ASAP to get ready for action.



No offense taken 

I am aware of the research but didn't mind myself effected in fast paced dynamic situations in training.  I did not however do any medium to long term exposure.

As for the disposable batteries I actually find this and advantage.  On duty I carry the new gen Streamlight LED Stinger.  Rechargable lights like the Stinger and replaceable battery lights fail in different ways so I find having one of each a benefit.  Additionally after all these years I sometimes forget to maintain the charge on my Stinger, being able to just swap in spare batteries helps to cover my but.  It's a PITA getting the mag light out of the car because it is sandwiched in between a shotgun and a patrol rifle.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Something I forgot to mention with my list of reasons for being anti-strobe is that the strobe light doesn't necessarily stop the bad guy. Based on what I've read is that because the strobe is basically intermittent at whatever hertz can allow certain people to deal with it and charge you anyway because they can still see you even if it is a distorted image of you that they see. With normal high output they don't see you *at all*. This would be the fourth reason that turned me off about strobes.

A fifth reason is that there isn't anything in any of the research I've done to even remotely suggest that strobe is better in a SD situation than normal high output. Normal high output is better than normal medium or low output. The reason? Normal high output has more lumens than medium or low output and thus a better chance at the temporary blinding factor.

Some people say that strobe is better to use in a SD situation than normal high output. Reason?.............

Again, these things are not an issue at all with the normal high output function. And this brings me back to my question; why mess around in a SD situation (and possible life or death situation) with something that has downsides as opposed to using something that does not have these downsides at all? Please forgive me guys but I'm failing to see the logic in that.

IDK, I could be completely wrong here but I think the strobe function is a _"nifty"_ feature that most consumers are convinced is better than normal high mode strictly based on the marketers saying it is. IDK. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

As far as high output vs. strobe I suppose it comes down to personal preference.  If there is research indicating that high output is more effective I'd appreciate a link.  

Couple of comments on lights and batteries.  First, as I've mentioned above, a good, solid CREE LED light can be purchased for less than $20.  I'm a member of the BLF discussion board.  Convoy lights are among the best budget flashlights that can be purchased.  And budget should not be confused for quality in these cases.  I am carrying a Convoy S2+ as I type this post.  I carry it for a variety of reasons.  In this link you'll see a torture test video:

Convoy S2+

It is one of the few China made products worth more than what is charged.  And Simon has an excellent reputation.  His link is in the first post of the thread.  I've purchased several Convoy S2+ lights in various colors.  Simply and excellent light.

Astrolux S1 (same as the BLF A6).  Similar to the Convoy S2+ but with some additional features and more power.

Astrolux S1

Both of those are lights that use an 18650 lithium ion battery.  These provide much higher output and capacity over AA batteries.  If you like a AA flashlight with excellent features then I'd recommend a couple of different ones.  The Sipik SK68 can be purchased on Ebay for a few bucks.  It uses either an AA or a 14500 lithium ion battery.  The SK68 can be a bit of a lotto on quality but the Sipik SK 68 is usually decent.  On a 14500 it will get up to 300 lumen, on an AA about 80 lumen (which still is more than a 5D cell Maglite with incandescent bulb)!  It's cheap enough to buy 10 and stick the other 9 in the drawer or glove box.  If you lose one you won't cry over it.

If you want to go more expensive, the Nitecore EA11 uses an AA or 14500 and has lots of excellent features.  I EDC either the EA11 or the Nitecore SRT3 which also uses either the AA, 14500, CR123 or 16340.

If you are unfamiliar with lithium ion batteries:

Regular cells like AAA/AA/C and D are 1.5V.  A lithium ion battery is 3.7V.  

If you're using a lithium ion battery make sure the light is capable of using it or it will fry the driver/LED.  

And most important...DON'T buy the cheap Ebay lithium ion batteries.  They're junk and potentially dangerous!  And they are marketed for suckers.  For example, a 14500 battery (same size as an AA) have about 750mAh capacity.  I've seen them as high as 900mAh but that is iffy.  You'll see one's on Ebay that are 2000mAh.  That's for the suckers that don't know you can't fit that kind of capacity in a AA sized battery.  Stick with reputable name brands from reputable sources:  Efest, Keep power, King Kong, Panasonic, Samsung, Nitecore and a few others.  Stay AWAY from anything labeled XXXfire with the exception of Trustfire and Windyfire IF from a reputable source (note that Trustfire are always sold in pairs with a holographic sticker).  

Get a GOOD charger, not the cheap Ebay junk.  I use Nitecore chargers.  Those are on Ebay/Amazon for $20 or less.

For batteries and chargers...don't skimp!


----------



## Psilent Knight

Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as high output vs. strobe I suppose it comes down to personal preference.



I agree with this. One thing I've never said is that strobe is 100% ineffective. I only said high output mode is my personal preference and I've given my reasons for that.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If there is research indicating that high output is more effective I'd appreciate a link.



I never said that. _What I did say_ is that there is a popular view that strobe is better or at least preferable to high output mode *even though THERE IS NO RESEARCH OR LINK to support this popular view*. All we have is tactical flashlight _*marketers*_ using the _"nifty"_ strobe function as a selling point _without any of them ever proving it's perceived superiority for SD over high mode to be true_. It's something that just caught on and swept across the tactical flashlight community as the latest flavor of the month. _On the contrary_ there is research available on the web that explains some pitfalls and downsides to using the strobe function in a SD situation. But I have yet to find any research at all explaining any pitfalls or downsides to using the high output mode in a SD situation.

In My Personal and Humble Opinion this makes the high output mode better for use in a SD situation than using the strobe mode on my flashlight. We really don't need one specific link that specifically says _"High output mode would be better in a SD situation than strobe mode"_ when we can read the available research concerning strobe mode and come to that logical conclusion naturally.

Again, it is my personal opinion that many people_ "believe"_ the strobe function to be the best thing to use in a SD situation simply because The Tactical Flashlight Marketers Tell Them It Is.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

LOL.  You guys are funny.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

And why is that Bill?  Seems to me it's been a good discussion on practical defensive tools.  And hopefully you've learned something since your post on the previous page.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Psilent Knight said:


> Again, it is my personal opinion that many people_ "believe"_ the strobe function to be the best thing to use in a SD situation simply because The Tactical Flashlight Marketers Tell Them It Is.



I understand what you're saying and for the general masses you may be correct.  Either way, I'm glad to see both pens, sharpie markers, flashlights, keychain kubatons etc being introduced to the masses for SD situations.  Same with O.C. spray on the keychain.  None of it is magic.  Nothing works on everyone all the time.  But it is a proactive approach that a person can take to protect themselves.  

*The best defense against an evil man is a good man with a violent skill set.*


----------



## Psilent Knight

Kong Soo Do said:


> Either way, I'm glad to see both pens, sharpie markers, flashlights, keychain kubatons etc being introduced to the masses for SD situations.



Same Here! The law abiding citizens of this country shouldn't be punished for trying to stay out of trouble. Anything that works and can be used as an equalizer is alright with me.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Same with O.C. spray on the keychain.  None of it is magic.  Nothing works on everyone all the time.  But it is a proactive approach that a person can take to protect themselves.



Agreed! And I do think the proactive approach and righteous vigilance will greatly maximize a law abiding person's ability to stay safe and not be victimized by America's many sociopaths and brain shy thugs.



Kong Soo Do said:


> *The best defense against an evil man is a good man with a violent skill set.*



LOVE IT!


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Common sense got seriously mugged in this thread, is what I'm saying.  Debagged and radished, is what.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Sorry you feel that way Bill.  I think this thread has a LOT of value in it.  Certain misconceptions have been corrected.  Links and videos have provided a training and educational platform and robust discussion has been the result.  That's a plus and one of the purposes of the board.  If you don't have anything of value to add to it, well, rather than tossing in useless banter, simply leave it to those that have interest and/or experience on the topic.


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Kong Soo Do said:


> Sorry you feel that way Bill.  I think this thread has a LOT of value in it.  Certain misconceptions have been corrected.  Links and videos have provided a training and educational platform and robust discussion has been the result.  That's a plus and one of the purposes of the board.  If you don't have anything of value to add to it, well, rather than tossing in useless banter, simply leave it to those that have interest and/or experience on the topic.



Misconceptions have been replaced with more misconceptions, fetishism has been raised to high art, and we've counted the number of angels that can dance upon a pin.  I find it perfectly ridiculous.  It's so hard not to laugh.  I agree that I really should keep it to myself, though.  I'll stop now.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> Yes, all of my flashlights that have a strobe function also strobe on the highest setting. The reason that I have recently come to be against the strobe setting_ in a SD situation_ is that I experimented with it after reading some research that suggest that the strobe function can be a setback to the person WITH the flashlight as well as against the bad guy. The reasons given were a) the strobe makes it difficult for the bad guy to detect your movements and distance from him. This is most certainly advantageous to the holder of the flashlight. BUT it can also have a slight disorientation on the person holding the flashlight as well and it can also make it difficult for that person to notice slight movements and distance changes that the bad guy makes.
> 
> The one with the light still has the upper hand. But for me one of the goals in a SD situation is to maximize any and all advantages and minimize any and all disadvantages I may have in that situation. Even that slight downside with the strobe can be the difference between going home or going to the morgue that night.
> 
> The reason this happens brings us to b) the environment has an effect on how the strobe bounces around. You can strobe someone standing in front of a car and the car window and the finish on the car itself can make it so that you feel a slight effect of the strobe. Even if you still have the upper hand as the holder of the flashlight you still do not want to give the bad guy any chances to do what he wants to do to you or your family. Looking for too long at the bad guy while you have your strobe light fixed on him will start to have a negative effect on you as well.
> 
> The most disconcerting reason I have read to say _'nay' _to the strobe setting is c) the holder of the flashlight may not be aware that he too is being ever so slightly affected by his own light. This lack of awareness makes it easier to miss certain movements that the bad guy makes and will have us thinking that we still hold all the chips in a SD situation.
> 
> I experimented with the strobe setting with my wife where I used the strobe setting while in our bedroom (since our room has walls, mirrors, desks, etc.) and sure enough I was not able to detect some of her movements that she made. I think another reason is because my own eyes were bothered and started hurting while I was looking at her trying to detect whatever movements I can. Because I had the light directed at her I was catching some of the after effects of the strobe as my eyes were fixated on her. I didn't like it. Not one bit. We cannot dictate when and where we may have to defend ourselves and if the strobe setting can have any cons at all to go with the pros then I will not use it. So far I haven't read any cons about using the regular high output setting. So my position is why not just go with the setting that has no cons at all rather than take any chances on a setting that does have cons? And also I'm still not convinced that the strobe setting would be better than the high setting. All of the cons that I have read about with the strobe do not exist with regular high output mode.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the only reason I _MAY_ want to use a strobe setting in a SD situation and that's only if I can find a way to use it without being affected by it myself. And even still just because I am using the strobe function on my lights doesn't mean help will definitely come. Some people may see it and not give it a second thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Same as above. This is the only reason I will want to use it. In fact, I would rather use the strobe function in the scenarios you described above than to use it in a SD situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I didn't want to offend you if you were because I see that The Ultimate Knife has two tactical flashlights and they both only take CR123A batteries and it doesn't look like the rechargeable lithium ones which is something that has always bothered me with some of these companies that make tactical flashlights. IDK, I could be overlooking into this but it sometimes feels like a way to get more money from the consumer even after they already paid too much money for the overpriced flashlight itself. While you can certainly use CR123A batteries from where ever you can find them I have learned that most of these companies sell their own disposable CR123A batteries _"to go with THEIR flashlights"_. Although it may not be the popular view I prefer flashlights that require AA or AAA alkaline batteries that I can get from just about ANYWHERE. They are more readily available and typically cost less.
> 
> BTW...Come on man, 50 is far from over the hill. Cut it out will ya?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you aware of the research that advise against strobes or suggest that strobes aren't what they are cracked up to be?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is definitely reasonably priced compared to Stream Light and most certainly compared to Surefire (I believe the most overpriced lights on the market). But I still think it's overpriced compared to, let's say, Police Security Brand Flashlights. The high prices on these tactical lights nowadays, the insistence on using CR123A disposable batteries and lumens ranging above 300 are all the rage and all of which are completely unnecessary for CIVILIAN SD. I have no problem elaborating on this if anyone reading this post wishes for me to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> That makes plenty sense. The one thing about the ring feature that Jared Wihongi pointed out that I do find useful is that it makes it all the more easier to deploy it quickly and easily. That's about the only thing I can find that I like about it. If I could I would rather use the ring for quick deployment and that try to take my finger out of that ring ASAP to get ready for action.



Close up the strobe starts bouncing back. 

It is good for waving down someone. I used it to signal cops and ambos.

You can get rechargeable 123s


----------



## Buka

As an old man on the job, my prefered weapons are my radio, my hands and my side arm. I like a flash light for seeing in the dark and a small knife for cutting materials when necessary. I don't want no baton, no pepper spray, no nothing. Just my rathers, nobody else's.


----------



## CB Jones

Buka said:


> As an old man on the job, my prefered weapons are my radio, my hands and my side arm. I like a flash light for seeing in the dark and a small knife for cutting materials when necessary. I don't want no baton, no pepper spray, no nothing. Just my rathers, nobody else's.



Man you could knock the heck out of someone with a Motorola MTS2000.  It was like a brick in your hand. 







And no pepper spray....I hate that crap.


----------



## Buka

CB Jones said:


> Man you could knock the heck out of someone with a Motorola MTS2000.  It was like a brick in your hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no pepper spray....I hate that crap.



Yeah, I suppose you could. 
But you know what I mean, the radio is the best - it can bring the cavalry. I always liked when the cavalry came. Or when I was part of the cavalry. (even better)

I just won't carry pepper spray. Haven't in a long time.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree that I really should keep it to myself, though.  I'll stop now.



Since you have nothing positive to contribute to the thread, I agree, you should stop


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Buka said:


> I just won't carry pepper spray. Haven't in a long time.



Been a long time since I've carried it off-duty as well.  I fact, we no longer carry it on duty, though I wish we still did.  There were times that it proved very useful and times where it can be used but a taser can't.  Definitely doesn't work all the time though.  But when it does...


----------



## CB Jones

Buka said:


> , the radio is the best - it can bring the cavalry.



Oh yeah...that too.


----------



## CB Jones

I was never a big fan of the expandable batons but those old PR-24s....man those were great.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> Man you could knock the heck out of someone with a Motorola MTS2000.  It was like a brick in your hand.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And no pepper spray....I hate that crap.



We had some guys go through a phase of doing that. I thought they had killed a guy with one once.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> Close up the strobe starts bouncing back.



Yeah, close up and in certain surroundings. I do believe the rewards of using the strobe outweigh the risks but I don't see any risks with using high output mode, thus my personal preference.



drop bear said:


> It is good for waving down someone. I used it to signal cops and ambos.



Yeah, this does make the strobe function very useful in certain situations. Nothing wrong with that.



drop bear said:


> You can get rechargeable 123s



Yeah, that's true. I guess I should take this into consideration the next time I'm in the market for a new tactical light.



Buka said:


> I just won't carry pepper spray. Haven't in a long time.



I've never carried pepper spray because I was worried about being perceived as un-macho. So I carried mace and a whistle instead. And I carried them in my really macho man bag that I used to wear on my shoulder.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

CB Jones said:


> I was never a big fan of the expandable batons but those old PR-24s....man those were great.



The old straight baton.  I can really do some good work with it.  Never trained on the PR-24 but could see it being a very useful tool.  I carry a kubaton on my vehicle key chain, very comfortable with that as a defensive tool.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> Yeah, close up and in certain surroundings. I do believe the rewards of using the strobe outweigh the risks but I don't see any risks with using high output mode, thus my personal preference.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, this does make the strobe function very useful in certain situations. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's true. I guess I should take this into consideration the next time I'm in the market for a new tactical light.
> 
> 
> 
> I've never carried pepper spray because I was worried about being perceived as un-macho. So I carried mace and a whistle instead. And I carried them in my really macho man bag that I used to wear on my shoulder.



By the way with batteries I quite often use the longer 18 something whatevers and use blazer brand. Then just have a non rechargeable set spare somewhere.

Kong is right with the batteries and torches. Cheap ones can blow up. Which is pretty crap.

I do nightcore with the smart ring. Which is a little dial on the front that goes from setting to setting. So I don't have to fart around as much changing light outputs.


----------



## drop bear

Kong Soo Do said:


> The old straight baton.  I can really do some good work with it.  Never trained on the PR-24 but could see it being a very useful tool.  I carry a kubaton on my vehicle key chain, very comfortable with that as a defensive tool.



Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat. 

I don't like to start a weapon fight with about the worlds most ineffective weapon.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Kong Soo Do said:


> I carry a kubaton on my vehicle key chain, very comfortable with that as a defensive tool.



I am seriously contemplating either purchasing or making a couple of kubotans (one for me and one for the Mrs.). I think the Kubotan is an overlooked but effective tool that can be really handy. If I do procure a Kubotan I'll also have it on my keychain(this makes plenty sense to me).



drop bear said:


> I do nightcore with the smart ring. Which is a little dial on the front that goes from setting to setting. So I don't have to fart around as much changing light outputs.



I know Nitecore has a pretty solid reputation and is up there with the big dogs like Surefire and Fenix. I may have to look at their flashlights soon. But what do you think about Ultrafire and their flashlights?



drop bear said:


> Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat.



I would rather have the Kubotan and not need it than to need it and not have it. A Kubotan doesn't compare to a gun or a long stick but it has some qualities that make it useful.

I made a yawara (palm stick/pocket stick) a couple of weeks ago and I think it came out quite well. Very simple and cheap to do. No need to pay money for one.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Psilent Knight said:


> I am seriously contemplating either purchasing or making a couple of kubotans (one for me and one for the Mrs.). I think the Kubotan is an overlooked but effective tool that can be really handy. If I do procure a Kubotan I'll also have it on my keychain(this makes plenty sense to me).



Kubatons have some very attractive features.  First, it's small and concealable.  One can have it in hand but not 'brandishing' it if they feel a situation is iffy.  If the iffy situation turns south it can easily and effectively be deployed rapidly.  Second, it can be useful if you want to touch or move something you'd rather not touch with your hands.  Those in L.E. will know what I'm talking about and is useful for checking/turning out pockets you'd rather not put your hand in.  Third, even if you buy one, they're cheap.  Ebay has a gazillion of them for a buck or two.  Forth, they're pretty indestructible.  I've had my same kubaton on my key chain for 20 years.  Yeah, some of the black has worn to silver, but that just gives it character.  Fifth, useful for some forms of 'come alongs' if you know how to use it.  Sixth, handy window breaker in an emergency.  Seventh, you'll never lose your keys with one attached, lol.  

Kubaton/Yawara



Psilent Knight said:


> I know Nitecore has a pretty solid reputation and is up there with the big dogs like Surefire and Fenix. I may have to look at their flashlights soon. But what do you think about Ultrafire and their flashlights?



I have several Ultrafire F13's.  I use them when I'm in the deep woods.  Generally speaking, most flashlights with XXXXfire are a lotto and different companies can make the same light to different standards.  They look the same on the outside but the inside is much more important.  Some with have a solid pill, some a hollow to save money.  Some will have a decent driver, some not so much.  Normally, one can use them as an inexpensive host to mod into a better flashlight.  Each of my F13's were on sale for $9 each and I was lucky that they had solid pills, a good LED and the driver is standing up to use.  Generally, they are a backup to my Trustfire A8 in the deep woods as I think the A8 is of better quality.

Overall, I have a lot of inexpensive lights to toss into the cars, backpack, by the door etc.  Lots of Sipik SK68's.  If I lose one or give it away I'm out maybe $2.  But they're backup lights.  For duty or a main line EDC I'll spend just a bit more money, but one doesn't have to spend $100 to get a quality light.  

On duty I carry two, Convoy S2+ and Astrolux S1 (18650 lights).  I EDC the Nitecore EA11 with the Nitecore SRT3 as my secondary go-to.  The most expensive are the Nitecores but I bought the SRT3 for $25 from a buddy that received it for a review, took it out of the box for the review and then I bought it.  Normally it's 3-4 times that price.  The EA11 was somewhere around the $30 mark give or take.  I'd put those up against much more expensive brands (where you're probably paying for the name.  But that goes with anything).

So as a back up, Ultrafire has a LOT of different types of lights.  It will be a lotto on the quality.  Stay away from the Ebay deals that toss in the batteries and charger...they're junk usually.  Nitecore makes a great charger and they're pretty inexpensive.  A good lithium ion battery should give you 500 charges and hold it's juice.  Stay away from the inflated mAh claims.  A 14500 will have around 750mAh give or take.  Same with a RCR123/16340.  An 18650 between 2400-3600mAh.  And a good 26650 4000-5000mAh give or take.

Stick with reputable dealers like Richard at Mountain Electronics:  LEDs


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> Kong is right with the batteries and torches. Cheap ones can blow up. Which is pretty crap.



What do you mean by "cheap ones"? Are you referring to AA and AAA alkaline batteries or cheap brand lithium batteries?



Kong Soo Do said:


> Kubatons have some very attractive features.  First, it's small and concealable.  One can have it in hand but not 'brandishing' it if they feel a situation is iffy.  If the iffy situation turns south it can easily and effectively be deployed rapidly.  Second, it can be useful if you want to touch or move something you'd rather not touch with your hands.  Those in L.E. will know what I'm talking about and is useful for checking/turning out pockets you'd rather not put your hand in.  Third, even if you buy one, they're cheap.  Ebay has a gazillion of them for a buck or two.  Forth, they're pretty indestructible.  I've had my same kubaton on my key chain for 20 years.  Yeah, some of the black has worn to silver, but that just gives it character.  Fifth, useful for some forms of 'come alongs' if you know how to use it.  Sixth, handy window breaker in an emergency.  Seventh, you'll never lose your keys with one attached, lol.



Yep, I pretty much concur with the entire checklist you wrote here.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Normally, one can use them as an inexpensive host to mod into a better flashlight.



How is this done? Is it something considered inadvisable to do? Is it a matter of placing the right parts together or is it a matter of making something to fit and work for you? Is it a risky thing to do?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat.
> 
> I don't like to start a weapon fight with about the worlds most ineffective weapon.


I find it useful, but have stopped carrying mine almost entirely. Too many places I can't carry it. TSA doesn't allow them on planes. Many government buildings that have metal detectors/scanning stations don't allow them. While it's better than bare hands (IMO), it's not enough better to be worth the hassle AND having to wonder if I have it with me this time. I figured carrying inconsistently simply meant I'd never think to get it out, anyway.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Good flashlight is a kubotan and a flashlight has the light feature.  I can
only carry so many tools so ones that perform more than one function have to
be the ones utilized.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I find it useful, but have stopped carrying mine almost entirely. Too many places I can't carry it. TSA doesn't allow them on planes. Many government buildings that have metal detectors/scanning stations don't allow them. While it's better than bare hands (IMO), it's not enough better to be worth the hassle AND having to wonder if I have it with me this time. I figured carrying inconsistently simply meant I'd never think to get it out, anyway.



My issue is if you pull a weapon in a fight you are basically fighting for sheep stations. Where if you don't you might get off with a light beating.

Thats fine if the weapon makes the risk worthwhile. But a kubotan generally doesn't. 

Even legally if he glasses me or something awful well I had a weapon. So he had to use one.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> What do you mean by "cheap ones"? Are you referring to AA and AAA alkaline batteries or cheap brand lithium batteries?



Cheap brand lithiums. especially rechargables. Those stupid hoverboard things were blowing up all over the place for a while.

Here are the reasons why so many hoverboards are catching fire


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> fighting for sheep stations.









yeah....have no idea what that means.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> yeah....have no idea what that means.



Fighting for keeps. You die or I die.


----------



## CB Jones

drop bear said:


> Fighting for keeps. You die or I die.




Fighting for Sheep Stations....I like it, might have to use that in class.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> My issue is if you pull a weapon in a fight you are basically fighting for sheep stations. Where if you don't you might get off with a light beating.
> 
> Thats fine if the weapon makes the risk worthwhile. But a kubotan generally doesn't.
> 
> Even legally if he glasses me or something awful well I had a weapon. So he had to use one.


For me, a weapon's something I'd use when I think I need it. In that case, I'm already expecting a light beating isn't where this is likely to end, so my weapon isn't likely to change things. And a kubotan (or flashlight serving as one) isn't likely to raise someone's ire nearly as much as a baton, knife, etc. would. Given how often people don't notice knives, they may also not notice the kubotan.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> For me, a weapon's something I'd use when I think I need it. In that case, I'm already expecting a light beating isn't where this is likely to end, so my weapon isn't likely to change things. And a kubotan (or flashlight serving as one) isn't likely to raise someone's ire nearly as much as a baton, knife, etc. would. Given how often people don't notice knives, they may also not notice the kubotan.



Yeah. But my issue was any time I needed a weapon. I needed more than a kubotan.

Would you pull your kubotan out if someone pulled a knife on you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But my issue was any time I needed a weapon. I needed more than a kubotan.
> 
> Would you pull your kubotan out if someone pulled a knife on you?


If that's what I have, I'll use it.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> If that's what I have, I'll use it.



Is that why you pack the thing. To use against a knife?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Is that why you pack the thing. To use against a knife?


Well, aside from the fact that I just said I don't actually pack it...

The reason I used to carry it was so I'd have a weapon when no better weapon was handy. If a knife came out, and I had nothing but the kubotan, that'd be what I'd use.


----------



## Psilent Knight

gpseymour said:


> For me, a weapon's something I'd use when I think I need it. In that case, I'm already expecting a light beating isn't where this is likely to end, so my weapon isn't likely to change things. And a kubotan (or flashlight serving as one) isn't likely to raise someone's ire nearly as much as a baton, knife, etc. would.



I agree with this.



gpseymour said:


> Given how often people don't notice knives, they may also not notice the kubotan.



THIS! From my perspective the bad guy should only know I brought a kubotan (or yawara or palm stick, etc.) into the altercation when he feels it being used somewhere on his body. It should be felt _BEFORE_ being seen. And once I have introduced the kubotan/yawara into the altercation I feel duty bound to keep attacking and put him down for the count and try to prevent him from recuperating from being hit with the kubotan. I don't believe in simply _brandishing_ a weapon (where the bad guy has an opportunity to ascertain what I have and prepare to deal with it). I believe, instead, in quickly deploying and using a weapon to gain the upper hand and to maintain that upper hand until the threat is no longer a threat.



gpseymour said:


> If that's what I have, I'll use it.



Same here.



drop bear said:


> Is that why you pack the thing. To use against a knife?



The knife or the kubotan are not what's really dangerous. It's the people wielding them. Just because you have a kubotan and you're defending yourself against a guy with a knife does not automatically mean you are at an automatic disadvantage. If he's not good at using a knife and has no fighting skills but you do have real skills and are very good at using your kubotan or yawara who is really at a disadvantage in that situation? Besides, if I had a choice, I would rather face a knife wielding person with a kubotan than to face him empty handed.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> The knife or the kubotan are not what's really dangerous. It's the people wielding them. Just because you have a kubotan and you're defending yourself against a guy with a knife does not automatically mean you are at an automatic disadvantage. If he's not good at using a knife and has no fighting skills but you do have real skills and are very good at using your kubotan or yawara who is really at a disadvantage in that situation? Besides, if I had a choice, I would rather face a knife wielding person with a kubotan than to face him empty handed.



I am going to say if you have a kubotan and he has a knife you really are at an automatic disadvantage. Now you guys are packing this thing to adress some sort of threat. You haven't picked it up as a last ditch resort. You intentionally carry it.

What threat do you actually expect to use it on?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I am going to say if you have a kubotan and he has a knife you really are at an automatic disadvantage. Now you guys are packing this thing to adress some sort of threat. You haven't picked it up as a last ditch resort. You intentionally carry it.
> 
> What threat do you actually expect to use it on?


I already answered that. Any threat where I wish I had a weapon, and no better weapon is handy.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I already answered that. Any threat where I wish I had a weapon, and no better weapon is handy.



Why not have a better weapon handy?

I mean you got up in the morning and chose to carry a weapon. And the weapon you chose was a kubotan.

What exactly did you think you were going to use it on?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Why not have a better weapon handy?
> 
> I mean you got up in the morning and chose to carry a weapon. And the weapon you chose was a kubotan.
> 
> What exactly did you think you were going to use it on?


There are a lot of places where a better weapon isn't allowed, other than something like a cane. And the cane is bothersome at times, so I don't take it with me.

You seem, once again, to be trying really hard to find something wrong with my choice. Get your head out of your ***.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> I am going to say if you have a kubotan and he has a knife you really are at an automatic disadvantage.



I am going to disagree with this. The person who has a knife but is 5"6, 160 lbs and has _no fighting skills_ (with or without the knife) is at a disadvantage if he's going against a guy who has a Kubotan but is 6"3, 230 lbs and is a _Trained Fighter _and is good at fighting (with or without the Kubotan).



drop bear said:


> Now you guys are packing this thing to adress some sort of threat. You haven't picked it up as a last ditch resort. You intentionally carry it.
> 
> What threat do you actually expect to use it on?



I expect to use it against whatever threat I may be faced with. I am not necessarily focusing on the type of threat or level of threat (knife, gun, really big guy, multiple opponents, etc). I am looking at the fact that I'm being threatened. And I will use any and every *appropriate* tool at my disposal to end the threat including a Kubotan if I have one or have access to one.



drop bear said:


> Why not have a better weapon handy?
> 
> I mean you got up in the morning and chose to carry a weapon. And the weapon you chose was a kubotan.
> 
> What exactly did you think you were going to use it on?





gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of places where a better weapon isn't allowed, other than something like a cane. And the cane is bothersome at times, so I don't take it with me.



In addition to what gpseymour said I will add that 1) some weapons aren't as convenient to carry on me as a Kubotan, 2) some weapons don't deploy as quickly and easily as a Kubotan, 3) I can innocuously carry the Kubotan in my hand to always have it at the ready, 4) many weapons that may be more effective than a Kubotan are illegal to carry (where I live Kubotan's are legal to carry) and 5) a person may use a gun or knife and regret it later because less lethal force could have sufficiently ended the threat. I feel there are too many people walking around with guns and knives who don't have the proper maturity required for carrying them.


----------



## CB Jones

Psilent Knight said:


> I am going to disagree with this. The person who has a knife but is 5"6, 160 lbs and has _no fighting skills_ (with or without the knife) is at a disadvantage if he's going against a guy who has a Kubotan but is 6"3, 230 lbs and is a _Trained Fighter _and is good at fighting (with or without the Kubotan).



Disagree.

That untrained fighter is still probably gonna cut you up and there is always the chance that he gets a lethal stab in there.


----------



## Psilent Knight

CB Jones said:


> That untrained fighter is still probably gonna cut you up and there is always the chance that he gets a lethal stab in there.



I disagree for the same reason I disagree with dropbear and that is you  are making an *assumption* such as your post above. I think you guys are only thinking of a knife and not looking at the entirety of the circumstances (such as the differences in skills, size and physical strength).

According to your logic a little 5th grade kid will succeed in carving you up simply because he has a knife regardless of the fact you're bigger, stronger, faster and way more experienced.


----------



## CB Jones

Psilent Knight said:


> I disagree for the same reason I disagree with dropbear and that is you  are making an *assumption* such as your post above. I think you guys are only thinking of a knife and not looking at the entirety of the circumstances (such as the differences in skills, size and physical strength).
> 
> According to your logic a little 5th grade kid will succeed in carving you up simply because he has a knife regardless of the fact you're bigger, stronger, faster and way more experienced.



No we are saying the knife gives an advantage as it is a more dangerous weapon....but all advantages can be overcome.....but it still gives the the knife wielder an advantage.

If that 5th grader by sheer lucks stabs you in the groin....was he a better fighter or did the weapon just give him an advantage that a lucky stab was able to take you down?


----------



## Psilent Knight

CB Jones said:


> No we are saying the knife gives an advantage as it is a more dangerous weapon



I agree that a knife is a more dangerous weapon than a Kubotan but I don't agree that it always means an automatic advantage. I am still of the view that the physical and mental capabilities of each person play into the situation as well.



> ....but all advantages can be overcome



EXACTLY!  If I've been consistently participating in reality based self defense for the past 10 years, am physically fit and Have real world experience in violence I believe that will help me to overcome the advantage of the out of shape junior high kid who does not train and has never been in a fight before.

There's a popular saying that 2nd amendment supporters repeat which is "_Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people_." Any weapon other than a firearm is only as dangerous as the person who possesses it.



> If that 5th grader by sheer lucks stabs you in the groin....was he a better fighter or did the weapon just give him an advantage that a lucky stab was able to take you down?



Either he was the more capable combatant and/or It would be due to me not possessing the right physical and mental capabilities to, as you said, _overcome the advantage he had with the knife_.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Psilent Knight said:


> I agree that a knife is a more dangerous weapon than a Kubotan but I don't agree that it always means an automatic advantage. I am still of the view that the physical and mental capabilities of each person play into the situation as well.
> 
> 
> 
> EXACTLY!  If I've been consistently participating in reality based self defense for the past 10 years, am physically fit and Have real world experience in violence I believe that will help me to overcome the advantage of the out of shape junior high kid who does not train and has never been in a fight before.
> 
> There's a popular saying that 2nd amendment supporters repeat which is "_Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people_." Any weapon other than a firearm is only as dangerous as the person who possesses it.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither. It would be due to me not possessing the right physical and mental capabilities to, as you said, _overcome the advantage he had with the knife_.


Perhaps the difference here is perception of articles? The difference between "an advantage" (which I think we all can agree, the knife does confer) and "the advantage" (which will depend upon more than just that one factor).


----------



## Psilent Knight

gpseymour said:


> Perhaps the difference here is perception of articles? The difference between "an advantage" (which I think we all can agree, the knife does confer) and "the advantage" (which will depend upon more than just that one factor).



Yeah, I think this makes a lot of sense.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of places where a better weapon isn't allowed, other than something like a cane. And the cane is bothersome at times, so I don't take it with me.
> 
> You seem, once again, to be trying really hard to find something wrong with my choice. Get your head out of your ***.



Because I couldn't just bring a glass drink bottle. Or nail someone with a chair. Especially if they wack me with a kubotan.

You again seem to be trying really hard to defend a stupid position. And are resorting to being upset to defend it.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of places where a better weapon isn't allowed, other than something like a cane. And the cane is bothersome at times, so I don't take it with me.
> 
> You seem, once again, to be trying really hard to find something wrong with my choice. Get your head out of your ***.



And look back at the thread. You quoted me you banana. That makes you trying very hard to find something wrong with my choice.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Because I couldn't just bring a glass drink bottle. Or nail someone with a chair. Especially if they wack me with a kubotan.
> 
> You again seem to be trying really hard to defend a stupid position. And are resorting to being upset to defend it.


What is the "stupid position" you believe I'm holding? I don't think a glass drink bottle is a better weapon than a kubotan. And I can't carry a chair with me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And look back at the thread. You quoted me you banana. That makes you trying very hard to find something wrong with my choice.


What choice of yours did I question?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And look back at the thread. You quoted me you banana. That makes you trying very hard to find something wrong with my choice.


Here's where we started:

DB: "Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat. I don't like to start a weapon fight with about the worlds most ineffective weapon."
GS: "I find it useful, but have stopped carrying mine almost entirely. Too many places I can't carry it. TSA doesn't allow them on planes. Many government buildings that have metal detectors/scanning stations don't allow them. While it's better than bare hands (IMO), it's not enough better to be worth the hassle AND having to wonder if I have it with me this time. I figured carrying inconsistently simply meant I'd never think to get it out, anyway."

So, you should be able to see that I didn't question your choice, at all. I simply gave you my view. From there, you worked really hard to try to show I was making some sort of BS choice.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Here's where we started:
> 
> DB: "Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat. I don't like to start a weapon fight with about the worlds most ineffective weapon."
> GS: "I find it useful, but have stopped carrying mine almost entirely. Too many places I can't carry it. TSA doesn't allow them on planes. Many government buildings that have metal detectors/scanning stations don't allow them. While it's better than bare hands (IMO), it's not enough better to be worth the hassle AND having to wonder if I have it with me this time. I figured carrying inconsistently simply meant I'd never think to get it out, anyway."
> 
> So, you should be able to see that I didn't question your choice, at all. I simply gave you my view. From there, you worked really hard to try to show I was making some sort of BS choice.



You view disagreed with mine which in theory shouldn't be an issue. But for some reason you have an issue.

You get flustered start attacking me while blaming me for not agreeing with you.

You are endorsing this product as a useful tool. 

Have you used a kubotan in a fight? How useful was it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> You view disagreed with mine which in theory shouldn't be an issue. But for some reason you have an issue.
> 
> You get flustered start attacking me while blaming me for not agreeing with you.
> 
> You are endorsing this product as a useful tool.
> 
> Have you used a kubotan in a fight? How useful was it.


My view was different from your. At no point did I object to your view. If you see every differing view as an attack, that's on you. I actually agree with the basic premise you put forth (kubotan isn't a great weapon, and I'd rather have something else). I just see it as a weapon I can sometimes have when others aren't readily available.

I see anything that can add capability as useful. It's a continuum, not a binary option. The kubotan does, in fact, add capability (swiping strikes can do damage, hammerfists can do more damage, can make some locks "sink in" quicker, etc.). Whether a specific individual finds it useful or not probably depends upon their approach and whether the kubotan fits easily into it. It's not intrinsically a highly useful weapon (no additional range, added damage in many cases is moderate at best), so if it doesn't fit with an individual's approach, it's probably not useful to them. I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling that an endorsement, but I don't really object to that term, either.

A kubotan is something I've not had to use in a fight (if I define "fight" as something outside sparring). So are a knife, a handgun, an elbow strike, a single-leg takedown, and a baseball bat. Each of those can be useful in the right circumstances, as well.


----------



## Psilent Knight

@Kong Soo Do  I think I may have been wrong about the usefulness of the strobe function in a tactical flashlight. After further research, experimentation and contemplation I think the strobe function can be very useful in a SD situation.

I will elaborate later this evening when I have more time. But in short I think a tactical flashlight has two primary purposes; 1) to Distract and 2) to Blind/Take Away Vision. I am still of the viewpoint that the high output mode would be best used at night and in extremely low lit conditions. In this situation it would be used to temporarily blind and completely take away the bad guy's vision.

After some experimentation outdoors in the daylight and indoors with lighting I am now coming to the conclusion that the strobe function can be used under these conditions not to blind but to distract the aggressor. I believe if done correctly (and with very high lumens output) it can sufficiently distract an enemy by disrupting his OODA LOOP. I will say if this is to be accomplished then the higher the lumens output of the torch the better. And I think your chances of success also increase the closer in proximity you are to the bad guy in order to fully effect his eyesight and brain (his OODA LOOP) with the strobe light.

One immediate downside I can see with this though is that I do not think the strobe function under the conditions I've described will do much, if anything at all, against multiple opponents  (but I do like my chances against multiple opponents in very dark conditions using high output mode in one hand and a long range weapon or gun in my other hand).

And of course it will not help at all (imo) if the bad guy has a gun.

And one other thing I must mention is that I do not believe the strobe function will work on a CLEAR and SUNNY day unless you're in an alley or between buildings tall enough to provide the less lit conditions required for what I am talking about.


----------



## Psilent Knight

BTW, the lumens I used in my experiments were 250 with one flashlight and 500 with another flashlight. I have another one that has as much as 1,100 lumens output in high mode but I did not experiment with that outside yet and I'm not sure if I really need to. After seeing what 500 lumens can do on strobe mode under lighted conditions I can already imagine what 1,000 lumens would do.

Again, to make my understanding clear I now believe the strobe function to be useful_ only_ to distract, disorient and disrupt but _NOT_ to temporarily blind the assailant. I would rather use the high output mode at night to blind someone or take away their vision. And I still prefer to blind/take away vision over disorienting or distracting.


----------



## CB Jones

How does the strobe interfer with the OODA Loop as opposed to the continuous beam?


----------



## Psilent Knight

The strength of the continuous beam is not so much as it interfere as it BLINDS/TAKE'S AWAY VISION, particularly at night in low lit conditions. The strobe interferes with the OODA LOOP by making it difficult at worst and impossible at best for an assailant to get a good sense of the movements and distance of the person holding the strobe light even though he can still very briefly see him in between flashes (especially in situations outside of night time and low lit conditions). It's also irritating as H*** to be flashed in your face by it. Very annoying and can be a distraction. I never denied the distraction or disorientation factor of the strobe light. My arguments against it's use were based on using it at night and how the person with the light can also be negatively affected by the strobe light even if he's not as badly affected by it as his attacker.

But to me the (important) difference between blinding/taking away the vision and mere distraction is that if you use the continuous beam at night to take away your attacker's vision you can keep the light on and in his face and attack at will in which there is basically nothing your attacker can do to counteract it (unless he's a d'bag and has a mirror in his hand). But with the distraction you only have a split second or two to take advantage of whatever disruption of his OODA LOOP you are able to obtain. In other words, although I am reconsidering my initial position of the usefulness of the strobe mode I am still of the position that the strobe function has a couple of downsides that continuous beam does not have.

But I got the idea of revisiting and reassessing my position while watching parts 3 and 4 of Jared Wihongi's 4 part youtube videos on using the very tactical flashlight which started this thread.

If I do conclude that there is value in using the strobe feature of a tactical flashlight it would be for my own reasons based on my own research, training and experimentation and NOT simply because the tactical flashlights marketers say it is without them providing their own research and experiments to validate why they say so. At the risk of coming off as being condescending I think this separates me from most of the masses of tactical flashlight consumers.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> My view was different from your. At no point did I object to your view. If you see every differing view as an attack, that's on you. I actually agree with the basic premise you put forth (kubotan isn't a great weapon, and I'd rather have something else). I just see it as a weapon I can sometimes have when others aren't readily available.
> 
> I see anything that can add capability as useful. It's a continuum, not a binary option. The kubotan does, in fact, add capability (swiping strikes can do damage, hammerfists can do more damage, can make some locks "sink in" quicker, etc.). Whether a specific individual finds it useful or not probably depends upon their approach and whether the kubotan fits easily into it. It's not intrinsically a highly useful weapon (no additional range, added damage in many cases is moderate at best), so if it doesn't fit with an individual's approach, it's probably not useful to them. I'm not sure I'd go so far as calling that an endorsement, but I don't really object to that term, either.
> 
> A kubotan is something I've not had to use in a fight (if I define "fight" as something outside sparring). So are a knife, a handgun, an elbow strike, a single-leg takedown, and a baseball bat. Each of those can be useful in the right circumstances, as well.



OK. When you ever do shape up on a 100kg+ angry guy with nothing but a small stick. You may understand what I am trying to express here.

When people make statements like I find a kubotan useful for. I think use is important. (Same with elbows and single legs.)Otherwise people get the wrong impression about these tools and will wind up doing something silly like putting a krambit ring on a torch and thinking they can hubud some guy with it.


----------



## drop bear

I have blasted a lot of guys with my revenger. Sometimes just because they were irritating. The effect is really hit and miss.

possibly the coolest torch i have seen in a while.


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## CB Jones

Psilent Knight said:


> The strobe interferes with the OODA LOOP by making it difficult at worst and impossible at best for an assailant to get a good sense of the movements and distance of the person holding the strobe light even though he can still very briefly see him in between flashes (especially in situations outside of night time and low lit conditions).



I just don't see it affecting the OODA Loop.  I know alot of  people with strobe functions on their lights....nobody uses them.  Its a marketing tactic to get cops to spend money.

I don't see how a strobe light is more effective than a full beam flashlight in doing the following:

Make it harder for the attacker to see target. (Observe)
Making it harder to face and focus on the target (Orient)
Make the decision to attack harder (Decide)
Make it harder to Attack (Act)


Alot of our training and tactics are based on interupting the OODA Loop process and IMHO I just don't see a strobe light be any more effective than a full beam light.

Just my opinion take it for what its worth.


----------



## Psilent Knight

CB Jones said:


> I just don't see it affecting the OODA Loop.  I know alot of  people with strobe functions on their lights....nobody uses them.  Its a marketing tactic to get cops to spend money.
> 
> I don't see how a strobe light is more effective than a full beam flashlight in doing the following:
> 
> Make it harder for the attacker to see target. (Observe)
> Making it harder to face and focus on the target (Orient)
> Make the decision to attack harder (Decide)
> Make it harder to Attack (Act)
> 
> 
> Alot of our training and tactics are based on interupting the OODA Loop process and IMHO I just don't see a strobe light be any more effective than a full beam light.
> 
> Just my opinion take it for what its worth.



For starters I never said the strobe function is better or more effective than continuous beam. My position has always been that continuous beam is more effective than strobe and I favor continuous beam over strobe. I have made this position of mine very clear during my participation in this thread.

Concerning your disagreement with my present observations and conclusions I have no problem with that. It is up to each individual to do his or her own research and come to their own conclusions. If you and I have two different conclusions and viewpoints on this I have no problem with that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> OK. When you ever do shape up on a 100kg+ angry guy with nothing but a small stick. You may understand what I am trying to express here.
> 
> When people make statements like I find a kubotan useful for. I think use is important. (Same with elbows and single legs.)Otherwise people get the wrong impression about these tools and will wind up doing something silly like putting a krambit ring on a torch and thinking they can hubud some guy with it.


Okay, so I'm facing a 100 kg guy. I have a choice between bare hands and kubotan. Me, I'd rather have the kubotan in my hand (though I might choose to drop it if it gets in my way, but that's easy to do).


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## Psilent Knight

Blindside said:


> As for light as illumination and a distraction, I don't think anyone says that it will stop a person, that would be silly.  *It is distracting and causes people to not focus directly toward the guy with a flashlight*.



I agree with this observation (be it strobe or continuous beam).



Blindside said:


> I have seen two Dog Brothers matches where people pulled tactical flashlights and tried to use them.  These are *brightly lit rooms or outside in the sun*, wearing masks which block some percentage of incoming light, and with people who are highly motivated to hit each other.  One guy said it was annoying but not really a factor,* the other guy couldn't look directly in the direction of the light and had to focus off to the sides.  That second is a pretty worthwhile advantage, it won't stop an attack but if you can't guage range well, that is certainly an advantage.*



THIS! I looked for this post mainly to highlight this portion of it (thanks for the info Blindside). Strobe mode (imho) isn't as effective at _completely_ taking away a person's vision as continuous beam is but seems to _still_ buy you that one or two seconds in higher lit conditions to attack due to the aggressor not being able to correctly guage distance between the two of you and/or him being distracted by the strobe.  So I believe if a person is going to use the strobe mode (particularly under higher lit conditions) I think it would be best to use it as a surprise distraction and _immediately attack_. Sort of how you immediately preemptively strike a person after asking a _distracting question_.

@Juany118  can you give us an update on how you are fairing with the D-TAC Strobeforce so far? Do you have your own list of pros and cons yet from having it? Do you have more things that you like about it than you have that you dislike about it or vice versa?


----------



## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> I agree with this observation (be it strobe or continuous beam).
> 
> 
> 
> THIS! I looked for this post mainly to highlight this portion of it (thanks for the info Blindside). Strobe mode (imho) isn't as effective at _completely_ taking away a person's vision as continuous beam is but seems to _still_ buy you that one or two seconds in higher lit conditions to attack due to the aggressor not being able to correctly guage distance between the two of you and/or him being distracted by the strobe.  So I believe if a person is going to use the strobe mode (particularly under higher lit conditions) I think it would be best to use it as a surprise distraction and _immediately attack_. Sort of how you immediately preemptively strike a person after asking a _distracting question_.
> 
> @Juany118  can you give us an update on how you are fairing with the D-TAC Strobeforce so far? Do you have your own list of pros and cons yet from having it? Do you have more things that you like about it than you have that you dislike about it or vice versa?




So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.

Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch.  Needed to adjust.
Light:  Due to the design of the switch if I just throw it in my "go bag" without thinking the weight of other gear can turn it on and your clueless.


----------



## Psilent Knight

@Juany118  one other question I actually meant to ask in my earlier post above:

The D-TAC Strobeforce goes straight into strobe mode as soon as you turn it on. I want to ask if it's easy to go to high output mode from the strobe or do you you have to cycle through other modes in order to get to high output mode? In other words, are you able to go from strobe directly to high output mode or no?


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## Psilent Knight

Juany118 said:


> So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.
> 
> Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch.  Needed to adjust.



That's understandable.



Juany118 said:


> Light:  Due to the design of the switch if I just throw it in my "go bag" without thinking the weight of other gear can turn it on and your clueless.



You may be surprised to know that this wouldn't be a con for me simply because I don't ever carry a tactical flashlight in a bag at all. I always have it clipped on my pocket.

Also, in case you haven't guessed it yet I am asking these questions for a reason; meaning as a possible customer. Looking at pros and cons, weighing and considering, etc.

I'm guessing it will take much more time and a lot more use to be able to determine other things about the light such as switch remaining functional vs malfunctioning, integrity of the bulbs and circuitry, does it drain batteries quicker than other lights you've handled, whether or not the finger ring gets in the way of things, etc.

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## Juany118

Psilent Knight said:


> @Juany118  one other question I actually meant to ask in my earlier post above:
> 
> The D-TAC Strobeforce goes straight into strobe mode as soon as you turn it on. I want to ask if it's easy to go to high output mode from the strobe or do you you have to cycle through other modes in order to get to high output mode? In other words, are you able to go from strobe directly to high output mode or no?


 It goes straight from strobe to high.  To go from high back to strobe you have to cycle through medium and low.

If you do that cycle, once on strobe, it auto shuts down in 10 seconds.  You can also shut down from any mode by holding the button for 3 seconds.

Oh another plus.  The bezel is very aggressive and has done a "number" on numerous test medium.  Some day I need to get a tripod for my phone so I can fill them.  Also, unlike some other lights.  The aggressive bezel alone can be removed and then you have a "normal" flashlight.  I am waiting to see however how firm that "stays" or if I might have to use low strength thread locker at some point.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Juany118 said:


> It goes straight from strobe to high.  To go from high back to strobe you have to cycle through medium and low.
> 
> If you do that cycle, once on strobe, it auto shuts down in 10 seconds.  You can also shut down from any mode by holding the button for 3 seconds.
> 
> Oh another plus.  The bezel is very aggressive and has done a "number" on numerous test medium.  Some day I need to get a tripod for my phone so I can fill them.  Also, unlike some other lights.  The aggressive bezel alone can be removed and then you have a "normal" flashlight.  I am waiting to see however how firm that "stays" or if I might have to use low strength thread locker at some point.



Thanks for the feedback. Please do keep us updated on any new thoughts or observation you come up with while using this light.



Juany118 said:


> So far two cons, one was me, the other the device.
> 
> Me: used to lights with a "butt" switch.  Needed to adjust.



I think this can be a major con if you routinely handle different brands of tactical flashlights. If all except one of them has a tail switch I think this can be a problem. Perhaps the best way (or possibly the only way) to alleviate this problem is to just stick with the D-TAC Strobeforce so that your brain and hand will always be accustomed to it and not get confused. Who knows? That one second of confusion in a stressful situation can be a huge difference maker.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Here are three things that have come across my mind yesterday evening that I would like to share concerning the use of flashlights.

*FIRST:* @Juany118  you are in the unique position of being able to inform a lot of people about the utility of the D-TACT Strobeforce due to you having that flashlight as well as other having ones. Whenever it is convenient for you I am hoping you can share with us how much you like it compared to your other lights. Is the location of the operation switch a huge con or a minor one to you? Do you have lights that you like better/prefer over the Strobeforce? If so, why? Do you have lights that you favor the Strobeforce over? If so, why? Any other issues you haven't shared yet that you would like to share about it?

*SECOND:* While discussing the Karambit style finger ring on the flashlight in question the possibility of having your flashlight taken away from you by your attacker was brought up. Two things already mentioned as a counter to that concern were weapon/tool retention skills and the size of the flashlight inside of a clenched (and likely quickly moving) hand makes that possibility very, very problematic. I will like to add that _*IF*_ your attacker manages to take your flashlight off of you I believe it is because you made some serious mistakes to allow such a thing to happen. Due to the size of the light and being able to retain it whenever you want to it should be impossible for your attacker to take it away from you as long as you are still standing, not badly injured and your brain is fully functional. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

*LASTLY:* I do believe that some people really do think of tactical flashlights (as some people do for other weapons and tools) are some sort of magic wand. I also believe that too many people think that just having one is good enough and that they will instinctively know what to do with it and how to best employ it in a tactical or SD situation without ever training to do so with it. Most importantly, I very much disagree with the idea that it should be _immediately_ used as a palm stick or bludgeoning tool by conscious strategical decision. Instead of _first_ on the _"pyramid of uses"_ of the light it should be _last_ in my opinion (I'm not saying it should never be used this way at all mind you).

Here is how I think the tactical flashlight should be used in descending order from the most preferable to the least preferable. By preferable I mean by conscious strategical decision. Why consciously choose to do #5 if you can safely do one of the first four?

1). To clear a dark area that you must navigate. You clear it _BEFORE_ continuing your navigation through that area.

2). As a deterrence. If you are being threatened or feel uncomfortable with the movements or behavior of someone you shine the light in their eyes and take away their vision to keep them immobilized while you make good on your escape.

3). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision as you execute a quick _"stun and run"_. You do this if you are past the 2nd stage listed above. With this method you flash 'em, then bash 'em and then run.

4). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision while you attack. You do this if you are past the 3rd stage listed above and find yourself having to engage in CQC to ensure your own or a loved one's safety. If doing this my preference is the light in my non dominant hand and another weapon in my dominant hand.

5). As an impact tool. This can be done with the light on or off. I will only do this if I do not have a weapon in my dominant hand and the flashlight is the only tool that I have at the moment.

Did I miss anything on this pyramid that others wish to add?

I realize the circumstances will dictate how the light is employed. A person may suddenly find himself in the 4th or 5th stage without having the luxury of being to execute the first 3 or 4 stages. Sometimes it can't be helped and we cannot always dictate at what stage of a situation we will be in.


----------



## Psilent Knight

Coming back to this thread I want look at the use of a _'tactical'_ flashlight by a female. Here are two short video clips by two different people with two different approaches. I personally have some issues with each one but I have more issues with the first one (not to mention it borders on the comical).

Any of you guys have any opinions, issues or general feedback concerning these two approaches?


----------



## CB Jones

Psilent Knight said:


> Coming back to this thread I want look at the use of a _'tactical'_ flashlight by a female. Here are two short video clips by two different people with two different approaches. I personally have some issues with each one but I have more issues with the first one (not to mention it borders on the comical).
> 
> Any of you guys have any opinions, issues or general feedback concerning these two approaches?



I liked the 1st video much better.  The Blonde was pretty attractive.......I know....I'm a pig and will now put myself in timeout.


----------



## Psilent Knight

CB Jones said:


> I liked the 1st video much better.  The Blonde was pretty attractive.......I know....I'm a pig and will now put myself in timeout.



LOL. That's why she's in the video, to be used as eye candy and get some guys to earn themselves a time out.

But the biggest problem I have with that first video is the advice they offer women for getting away after a man  has grabbed them. If a female gets grabbed by a male she's going to have to do a helluva lot more than turn on a flashlight and scream "Back off". And I don't know how much good it would do to attack his grabbing hand with the flashlight's bezel.

I generally like the advice that James Williams offers in the 2nd video. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the idea of trying to use lateral movement to flank an assailant while you shine the light in his face. Not only do I think it will not be as text book as he makes it out to be, but why even bother wasting time with such wasted movement's? If you've succeeded in taking away his night vision then take advantage of that opportunity to directly drop him and get out of there. He can't see what you're about to do anyway so the (extra) lateral movement in an effort to flank him is a waste of precious seconds to me.

But overall I would recommend the 2nd video to women who are concerned with personal protection.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> LOL. That's why she's in the video, to be used as eye candy and get some guys to earn themselves a time out.
> 
> But the biggest problem I have with that first video is the advice they offer women for getting away after a man  has grabbed them. If a female gets grabbed by a male she's going to have to do a helluva lot more than turn on a flashlight and scream "Back off". And I don't know how much good it would do to attack his grabbing hand with the flashlight's bezel.
> 
> I generally like the advice that James Williams offers in the 2nd video. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the idea of trying to use lateral movement to flank an assailant while you shine the light in his face. Not only do I think it will not be as text book as he makes it out to be, but why even bother wasting time with such wasted movement's? If you've succeeded in taking away his night vision then take advantage of that opportunity to directly drop him and get out of there. He can't see what you're about to do anyway so the (extra) lateral movement in an effort to flank him is a waste of precious seconds to me.
> 
> But overall I would recommend the 2nd video to women who are concerned with personal protection.



Any response will go to the last spot you were seen. So the lateral movement makes sense.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> Any response will go to the last spot you were seen. So the lateral movement makes sense.


 
I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the idea but here are two possible problem's with the flanking idea:

1) I don't think the assailant is going to _stand perfectly still in one spot_. This is why I said it will not be as textbook as the video makes it out to be. You have to flank him while somehow leaving your arm in the right position to keep the light directly in his face. Just try doing this yourself with a training partner who is allowed to react naturally and you'll see that it's easier said than done.

2) It's an extra step or movement that you're better off skipping. If I have my light shining in a bad guy's eyes and have succeeded in taking away his vision I would rather take maximum advantage of that moment and drop him with one move (say a right cross to his jaw or a palm stick to his clavicle or sternum) instead of taking unnecessary chances with two moves (step to his left first while somehow keeping my adrenaline filled arm where it needs to be to keep the light perfectly in his eyes and *then* drop him).

Have a look at the second video again and look at the sequence where the female is at her car giving the bad guy the business. She has the light in her left hand directed toward his face and going to work on him with the weapon in her right hand. Which would have a better chance of saving her in a _fast paced, adrenaline filled attack_; that which she's doing already in the video or trying to flank him in between shots with the weapon in her right hand?

I'll reiterate that I most certainly appreciate the concept of flanking someone while shining a bright light in his eyes but I think that concept takes second seat to simply attacking him while you can as soon as the opportunity presents itself. James Williams himself does teach such a concept as evidenced in the video below.






Remember, he can't see what movements you're making behind that light anyway so _deliberately_ looking to flank him is unnecessary imo. If you just so happen to naturally flank him during the altercation then that's great. By all means take advantage of that moment if you do. But I would rather focus on surviving and escaping instead of fixing my mind on any one tactic, be it flanking or otherwise.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Psilent Knight said:


> I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the idea but here are two possible problem's with the flanking idea:
> 
> 1) I don't think the assailant is going to _stand perfectly still in one spot_. This is why I said it will not be as textbook as the video makes it out to be. You have to flank him while somehow leaving your arm in the right position to keep the light directly in his face. Just try doing this yourself with a training partner who is allowed to react naturally and you'll see that it's easier said than done.
> 
> 2) It's an extra step or movement that you're better off skipping. If I have my light shining in a bad guy's eyes and have succeeded in taking away his vision I would rather take maximum advantage of that moment and drop him with one move (say a right cross to his jaw or a palm stick to his clavicle or sternum) instead of taking unnecessary chances with two moves (step to his left first while somehow keeping my adrenaline filled arm where it needs to be to keep the light perfectly in his eyes and *then* drop him).
> 
> Have a look at the second video again and look at the sequence where the female is at her car giving the bad guy the business. She has the light in her left hand directed toward his face and going to work on him with the weapon in her right hand. Which would have a better chance of saving her in a _fast paced, adrenaline filled attack_; that which she's doing already in the video or trying to flank him in between shots with the weapon in her right hand?
> 
> I'll reiterate that I most certainly appreciate the concept of flanking someone while shining a bright light in his eyes but I think that concept takes second seat to simply attacking him while you can as soon as the opportunity presents itself. James Williams himself does teach such a concept as evidenced in the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, he can't see what movements you're making behind that light anyway so deliberately looking to flank him is unnecessary imo. If you just so happen to flank him during the altercation then that's great. By all means take advantage of that moment if you do. But I would rather focus on surviving and escaping instead of fixing my mind on any one tactic, be it flanking or otherwise.


To me, a flanking move is part of the counter-attack. I don't want to stand still, whether they can see me, or not. If they can't see me, that movement provides an additional advantage, because they can't clearly tell where I've moved to.


----------



## Psilent Knight

gpseymour said:


> To me, a flanking move is part of the counter-attack. I don't want to stand still, whether they can see me, or not. If they can't see me, that movement provides an additional advantage, because they can't clearly tell where I've moved to.



Yes, in this case I'd rather just move if I need to and it won't necessarily be a flanking move. I will only move when, where and how it makes the most sense. But I won't fixate my mind strictly on lateral movement and flanking. When people fixate on anyone given tactic during a physical altercation they run the risk of missing other tactics that make more sense than the tactic they are fixated on. There's a natural flow to any given altercation and I would rather be prepared for whatever changes and attack opportunities that natural flow gives me and adapt to changing circumstances. I can't do that if I am strictly looking for the opportunity to do one specific tactic (in this case flanking).


----------



## Psilent Knight

Remember, the "_bad guy_" in Mr. Williams videos is standing perfectly still while Mr. Williams is moving in slow motion. So of course it looks perfectly textbook in the videos. Last I remembered though the bad guy never stand's still by choice and is willing to take his punishment and an altercation is fast paced and dynamic. A swinging arm and a front kicking foot are quicker and less cumbersome than a lateral stepping movement.


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the idea but here are two possible problem's with the flanking idea:
> 
> 1) I don't think the assailant is going to _stand perfectly still in one spot_. This is why I said it will not be as textbook as the video makes it out to be. You have to flank him while somehow leaving your arm in the right position to keep the light directly in his face. Just try doing this yourself with a training partner who is allowed to react naturally and you'll see that it's easier said than done.
> 
> 2) It's an extra step or movement that you're better off skipping. If I have my light shining in a bad guy's eyes and have succeeded in taking away his vision I would rather take maximum advantage of that moment and drop him with one move (say a right cross to his jaw or a palm stick to his clavicle or sternum) instead of taking unnecessary chances with two moves (step to his left first while somehow keeping my adrenaline filled arm where it needs to be to keep the light perfectly in his eyes and *then* drop him).
> 
> Have a look at the second video again and look at the sequence where the female is at her car giving the bad guy the business. She has the light in her left hand directed toward his face and going to work on him with the weapon in her right hand. Which would have a better chance of saving her in a _fast paced, adrenaline filled attack_; that which she's doing already in the video or trying to flank him in between shots with the weapon in her right hand?
> 
> I'll reiterate that I most certainly appreciate the concept of flanking someone while shining a bright light in his eyes but I think that concept takes second seat to simply attacking him while you can as soon as the opportunity presents itself. James Williams himself does teach such a concept as evidenced in the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, he can't see what movements you're making behind that light anyway so _deliberately_ looking to flank him is unnecessary imo. If you just so happen to naturally flank him during the altercation then that's great. By all means take advantage of that moment if you do. But I would rather focus on surviving and escaping instead of fixing my mind on any one tactic, be it flanking or otherwise.



What if I throw punches at the light?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> What if I throw punches at the light?


F*** that light up, DB. It's an a******, anyway.


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> What if I throw punches at the light?



Lmao. Make sure you give that white light a black eye. That'll show 'em what a real _shiner_ is.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> F*** that light up, DB. It's an a******, anyway.



I am hoping it will be near your head.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I am hoping it will be near your head.


Wait, when did I end up holding the damned thing?? Who gave me the flashlight??


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Wait, when did I end up holding the damned thing?? Who gave me the flashlight??



It is how you win the game keepings off. You don't go back and forwards trying to get your stuff. You bash everyone who has touched your stuff.


----------



## Psilent Knight

It's just a matter of time before the law abiding citizens of society will no longer have any kind of advantage with super bright flashlights. Every body and their grandma are marketing them left and right. And commercials on TV for that one flashlight that is basically the same as the Bell & Howell model are being shown with evermore frequency. My wife convinced me to buy one on an impulse while clothes shopping at Gabriel Brothers (you read that right folks).

Can anyone tell me how so many companies are marketing the same model flashlight under different names? Are they like buying them wholesale from China or something? I think I've seen the Bell & Howell and I-Zoom design flashlight sold by 6 or 7 different companies under as many different names. How is this being done?

Here's the I-Zoom which is the same thing as the Bell & Howell and who knows how many other names being etched on it. I'm seeing more and more commercials on television and online for this light sold by different companies (and under different names).

2500 Lumen i-Zoom Flashlight

Okay, so what company(s) in China are they getting this _template_ from?

EDIT: I forgot to mention that the one I bought from Gabe's was cheap too; $20 which is the price they're all selling them for. So as I said earlier it's just a matter of time before the a******s of society catch on and counteract that advantage and/or use it themselves to their own advantage.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Yes, multiple companies in China make the same flashlight(s).  And these companies market those flashlights under different names and/or vendor accounts.  The flashlight in your link above is one of them.  There are a gazillion of them on Ebay.  Not to rain on anyone's parade, if you spent $20 on it then you were taken.  That's about four times what you'd pay on Ebay. Yea, you can get a flashlight like that for around $5 give or take.  Here's a bit more salt for the wound, it states 2500 lumens.  Those are Chinese lumens which are as real as Peter Pan, no-touch knock outs, unicorns and magic beans.  They make up a number that they think will impress people.  There is *NO WAY* that light produces 2500 lumens on six 1.5V AAA batteries.  If it produces even 500 lumens you'd be lucky.  It also doesn't seem to have a very efficient driver but that's another story.

As I mentioned earlier, go to Ebay and type in Sipik and/or SK68 and you'll see more lights than you can shake a stick at.  Type in CREE LED and you'll see the same thing.

I someone wants an inexpensive light that still has quality then you'd be MUCH better served going with a Convoy S2+ and invest in a couple of quality 18650 cells and a good smart charger.

Buy Products Online from China Wholesalers at Aliexpress.com

That link is to Simon's store on Ali and he is one of the few in China with a sterling reputation.  These lights have the excellent 7135 chip drivers.  You can custom order 3,4,6 or 8 chips.  If you're unfamiliar with that kind of driver (circuit board that runs the flashlight) it has chips which run the amps from the battery to the LED.  If you want max run time (yet still have a VERY bright light) choose 3 or 4 chips.  If you want maximum lumen output then go with 6 or 8 chips.  Get a conversion tube so that you can shorten it to an 18350 sized light and get a pocket clip.  This is a flashlight that will actually work when you need it, has memory, has L, M and H with strobe and SOS that can be hidden.  

Check out this thread for more information and videos on torture testing:

Convoy S2+

You can get a Convoy S2+ for between $15 and $20 depending on the features you want.  A few more $ if you want the pocket clip and 18350 tube.  If you want it quicker then go with Richard at M.E. and you'll get the same light in just a few days.

Flashlights

Richard gets them from Simon and both companies have thumbs up ratings on BLF.  

If you want the same type of light that's even brighter then go with the BLF A6 or Astrolux S1 (same light/different name).

Astrolux S1

You'll probably pay between $20-$30 for these and they already have the clip and tube.  

Other options are Nitecore products like the SRT3, 5 or 7 or EA11 or EC11 depending on how big and what types of batteries.  Nitecore will run you more $ however.  But they are great lights.

And again, spend the extra $ and get GOOD lithium ion batteries from a trusted source like Richard above.  DON'T GET THE CRAP XXXFIRE BATTERIES ON EBAY.  Yeah, their cheap for a reason.  Go with Samsung, Panasonic, Efest, Keeppower, King Kong, Nitecore etc.  And get a good charger like a Nitecore:

Nitecore I2 & I4

No, don't have stock in any of the above.  But I know a thing or three about flashlights.  Hell, I can build/modify them when the mood strikes me.


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## Psilent Knight

@Kong Soo Do  very informative post. There's only one part I wish to respond to:



Kong Soo Do said:


> There is *NO WAY* that light produces 2500 lumens on six 1.5V AAA batteries.  If it produces even 500 lumens you'd be lucky.



You may be correct that it doesn't produce 2500 lumens. But I do have a flashlight that produces 500 lumens and that I-Zoom model is *way brighter* by a *significantly noticeable margin*. I was able to light up the entire block up the street from me with it during a power outage a couple of weeks ago. It's throw distance is also quite insane. Because of the size of the light and the batteries (6 AA) I'd say somewhere between 900 and 1,600 lumens _MAY BE_ more accurate. And I think I'm being modest by going as low as 900 lumens.

BTW...magic beans are real my friend. A little fairy dude riding on a unicorn gave me some. Thanks to the power of those beans I can now perform no touch knockouts.


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## Kong Soo Do

What is the 500 lumen flashlight that you have?  And remember, lumens are a little odd in that 1000 lumens isn't twice as bright as 500 lumens (as an example).  If the I-Zoom is 900+ lumens then that's great.  

I guess eating some beans would allow for a no-touch knock out...


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## Psilent Knight

@Kong Soo Do it's a SureBilt 500 Lumens. It's not too husky or heavy but it has some decent size and weight to it which is the primary reason I bought this particular flashlight. It is _the one handheld light_ that I have that I can knock the hell out of somebody with. It's built to last. It takes 3 AA alkaline batteries and it's extra bright. And that I-Zoom model flashlight is _at least_ double the brightness. I'm telling you it's seriously freakin' BRIGHT.

But regardless of the exact number of lumens of either one of these flashlights I'm not complaining because they are both pretty darn bright and they are more than sufficient for my purposes. As I see it bright is bright and a SUDDEN and UNEXPECTED flash of either one of them directly in the eyes of someone with night adapted vision will definitely do what I need them to do for me. And either one can be used to knock some sense into a would be aggressor.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Psilent Knight said:


> But regardless of the exact number of lumens of either one of these flashlights I'm not complaining because they are both pretty darn bright and they are more than sufficient for my purposes



That's the bottom line right there.  

My personal on-body EDC is the Nitecore EA11.  Can use either a AA or 14500 cell.  With a good 14500 cell, reports are that the output exceeds the advertised 900 lumens. Regardless...it's like looking at the sun.  Back up is the Nitecore SRT3.  This one can hit 550 lumens but it's a cool light in that it can use AA, 14500, CR123 or RCR123 (16340) cells.  They both have all the features I like (moon mode, turbo, memory, strobe, SOS and beacon).


----------



## Psilent Knight

At some point in the near future I definitely intend to check out those lights by Nitecore that you have. They sound awesome. Thanks for the recommendation and thanks for your informative posts in this thread.


----------



## Psilent Knight

I have a question I've not seen brought up yet in this discussion.

How many lumens do you all believe it takes to take away a person's night adapted vision with a tactical light? What is the minimum lumens output required for this?


----------



## drop bear

Psilent Knight said:


> I have a question I've not seen brought up yet in this discussion.
> 
> How many lumens do you all believe it takes to take away a person's night adapted vision with a tactical light? What is the minimum lumens output required for this?



Its tricky. If you look at led lenser with its measly 300 lumens. it is a bit brighter and the beam goes further than the 1000 lumens nitecores. 

P7.2 - Box

I still wouldn't bank on blinding for self defence. I would focus on being able to see well at night. You see a guy from a long way away you dont have to make as quick a decision as to what to do about him.

Or in my case i dont step on as many snakes.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Its tricky. If you look at led lenser with its measly 300 lumens. it is a bit brighter and the beam goes further than the 1000 lumens nitecores.
> 
> P7.2 - Box
> 
> I still wouldn't bank on blinding for self defence. I would focus on being able to see well at night. You see a guy from a long way away you dont have to make as quick a decision as to what to do about him.
> 
> Or in my case i dont step on as many snakes.


agree the best idea would be to leave the flash switched off and then hit him with it


----------



## Psilent Knight

drop bear said:


> I still wouldn't bank on blinding for self defence. I would focus on being able to see well at night. You see a guy from a long way away you dont have to make as quick a decision as to what to do about him.





Psilent Knight said:


> Here is how I think the tactical flashlight should be used in descending order from the most preferable to the least preferable. By preferable I mean by conscious strategical decision. Why consciously choose to do #5 if you can safely do one of the first four?
> 
> 1). To clear a dark area that you must navigate. You clear it _BEFORE_ continuing your navigation through that area.
> 
> 2). As a deterrence. If you are being threatened or feel uncomfortable with the movements or behavior of someone you shine the light in their eyes and take away their vision to keep them immobilized while you make good on your escape.
> 
> 3). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision as you execute a quick _"stun and run"_. You do this if you are past the 2nd stage listed above. With this method you flash 'em, then bash 'em and then run.
> 
> 4). As a blinding tool to take away their night vision while you attack. You do this if you are past the 3rd stage listed above and find yourself having to engage in CQC to ensure your own or a loved one's safety. If doing this my preference is the light in my non dominant hand and another weapon in my dominant hand.
> 
> 5). As an impact tool. This can be done with the light on or off. I will only do this if I do not have a weapon in my dominant hand and the flashlight is the only tool that I have at the moment.
> 
> I realize the circumstances will dictate how the light is employed. A person may suddenly find himself in the 4th or 5th stage without having the luxury of being to execute the first 3 or 4 stages. Sometimes it can't be helped and we cannot always dictate at what stage of a situation we will be in.


----------



## jobo

doesnt flood lighting the area just make every one aware you are there, if you cant see them they can't see you,ove quietly like a ninja


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> doesnt flood lighting the area just make every one aware you are there, if you cant see them they can't see you,ove quietly like a ninja



It is a compromise. For me I will go to a break in. And if for some reason I dont just wait out the front and call the cops. I will kick the doors, turn my torch on and call out. Hopefully if there is someone in there they will save me the trouble and run away.

Now If I am suddenly face to face to them. They have to make the decision whether to go through me. Which is more trouble.


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## morymorya

I bought a GearLight for my daughter and she can put it in her pocket. I looked at its quality, it was strong, and it was strong enough to be a great tactical flashlight.


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## Invisibleflash

CB Jones said:


> Stream light for illumination.... old mag light for putting knots on someone's head.



Yes, mag light is the legal kubaton in NYC. Sorry I gave away my old one when I moved onto the hi output led's.


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## Invisibleflash

CB Jones said:


> I think the finger ring would be a finger breaker in a fight



Don't know. Maybe. If an issue I'd cut ring off if I could. 

I always wanted a dedicated strobe. I wonder how reliable it is. In current trim the NYC cope may pull you in. Weapons of any form are illegal.


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## Invisibleflash

Looks like something you Brits should have. Or would there be a problem with it in England? I read the poor Brits have to use a bar of soap in a sock or rolled up newspapers to fight off attackers.

Has anyone bought one of these lights? How does it hold up? Any issues with it? I use Surefire myself.


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## Invisibleflash

drop bear said:


> I don't think the disorientation is really reliable. Having hit a few guys with the strobe on mine. I dont thing the strobe makes much difference either. Exept it can be a bit disorienting for you up close.
> 
> I still suggest the primary purpose of a tactical torch is to see trouble far enough away that you can avoid it.



Light may not be bright enuf. Go in a dark room, real dark, shine 1200 lumen in your eyes. See what happens. If it is not dark enough, lights don't work as well. Unless you are someone very special, I can't see for some time.


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## jobo

Invisibleflash said:


> Looks like something you Brits should have. Or would there be a problem with it in England? I read the poor Brits have to use a bar of soap in a sock or rolled up newspapers to fight off attackers.
> 
> Has anyone bought one of these lights? How does it hold up? Any issues with it? I use Surefire myself.


yes, having anything which carries the label tactical can be a problem I can't see blinding someone with light as a major problem but hitting them it with may be, just carry something designed to hit with is a big issue, we can however carry a substantial torch and co indedentally find it in our hand if we are attacked

rolled up news papers make an extremely effective weapon,if you have time to roll them


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## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> I don't bother with the strobe feature on my flashlight either. I'm basically not sold on the strobe feature. I keep my light set on high mode. I only bother with the low setting around the house when using it to look for stuff. And the strobe setting I don't deal with at all.
> 
> As far as the disorientation or momentary blindness factor, well I am sold on that. I think a sudden and unexpected flash of 500 lumens of light right directly in the face of someone with night adapted vision is something not to be overlooked or underestimated. I've accidentally shined it in my own face (at 500 lumens) in my house, during the daytime with the bedroom light on. And...well.Trust me! Just, you know, trust me on this one.



My light only has full power or off. I used to have a low and high setting light. Had an altercation and used low by mistake. That was enough of a lucky warning for me.


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## Invisibleflash

CB Jones said:


> I get what you are saying Blindside....but what is the reward that outweighs the risk of having that finger loop?
> 
> I would like the light if it was minus the finger loop.  The finger loop just adds a risk that isn't needed.
> 
> If someone is wanting to disarm me from the flashlight why do I want a flashlight I have to fight to retain?



See if you can cut it off.


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## Invisibleflash

drop bear said:


> What people who make disorienting light and sound weapons do not understand about the people they are intending to use them on.



You can use a Class IV laser for defense. But it can cause permanent eye damage. In the USA, when / if the soft civil war turns into a hard civil war, they may come in handy. A laser can be useful 50 yards or more.


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## Invisibleflash

CB Jones said:


> Instead of a finger ring I would rather removable strike bevels on both ends.



Those bezels can cause lots of blood and permanent disfigurement. If you are hauled into court maybe an issue. I use Surefire myself. Much less aggressive bezel. I do like the dedicated flash feature of the light being discussed. That is what is of interest. I'd cut off the finger ring.


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## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> Yes, all of my flashlights that have a strobe function also strobe on the highest setting. The reason that I have recently come to be against the strobe setting_ in a SD situation_ is that I experimented with it after reading some research that suggest that the strobe function can be a setback to the person WITH the flashlight as well as against the bad guy. The reasons given were a) the strobe makes it difficult for the bad guy to detect your movements and distance from him. This is most certainly advantageous to the holder of the flashlight. BUT it can also have a slight disorientation on the person holding the flashlight as well and it can also make it difficult for that person to notice slight movements and distance changes that the bad guy makes. ....



Yes, never thought about that. I'd have to see how the strobe affected me in the dark.


----------



## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> Something I forgot to mention with my list of reasons for being anti-strobe is that the strobe light doesn't necessarily stop the bad guy. Based on what I've read is that because the strobe is basically intermittent at whatever hertz can allow certain people to deal with it and charge you anyway because they can still see you even if it is a distorted image of you that they see. With normal high output they don't see you *at all*. This would be the fourth reason that turned me off about strobes.
> 
> A fifth reason is that there isn't anything in any of the research I've done to even remotely suggest that strobe is better in a SD situation than normal high output. Normal high output is better than normal medium or low output. The reason? Normal high output has more lumens than medium or low output and thus a better chance at the temporary blinding factor.
> 
> Some people say that strobe is better to use in a SD situation than normal high output. Reason?.............
> 
> Again, these things are not an issue at all with the normal high output function. And this brings me back to my question; why mess around in a SD situation (and possible life or death situation) with something that has downsides as opposed to using something that does not have these downsides at all? Please forgive me guys but I'm failing to see the logic in that.
> 
> IDK, I could be completely wrong here but I think the strobe function is a _"nifty"_ feature that most consumers are convinced is better than normal high mode strictly based on the marketers saying it is. IDK. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way.



You would have to test it out. That would make a good YT video. Strobe vs normal light.


----------



## Invisibleflash

Buka said:


> As an old man on the job, my prefered weapons are my radio, my hands and my side arm. I like a flash light for seeing in the dark and a small knife for cutting materials when necessary. I don't want no baton, no pepper spray, no nothing. Just my rathers, nobody else's.



You can't shoot everyone that pushes you. In NYC you can't carry a gun. Now what's your plan? If you are an old man and can still fight, great for you. But all us old guys are not that lucky.


----------



## Invisibleflash

drop bear said:


> Super uncomfortable with the kubaton. If I am threatened enough to need one I probably need a baseball bat.
> 
> I don't like to start a weapon fight with about the worlds most ineffective weapon.



What is wrong with kubaton? 

I don't use one for keys, but they are great for hammer fist strikes. Although in NYC can't carry em. As was noted earlier, flashlight is your kubaton in NYC.


----------



## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> THIS! From my perspective the bad guy should only know I brought a kubotan (or yawara or palm stick, etc.) into the altercation when he feels it being used somewhere on his body. It should be felt _BEFORE_ being seen. And once I have introduced the kubotan/yawara into the altercation I feel duty bound to keep attacking and put him down for the count and try to prevent him from recuperating from being hit with the kubotan. I don't believe in simply _brandishing_ a weapon (where the bad guy has an opportunity to ascertain what I have and prepare to deal with it). I believe, instead, in quickly deploying and using a weapon to gain the upper hand and to maintain that upper hand until the threat is no longer a threat.
> 
> 
> 
> Same here.
> 
> 
> 
> The knife or the kubotan are not what's really dangerous. It's the people wielding them. Just because you have a kubotan and you're defending yourself against a guy with a knife does not automatically mean you are at an automatic disadvantage. If he's not good at using a knife and has no fighting skills but you do have real skills and are very good at using your kubotan or yawara who is really at a disadvantage in that situation? Besides, if I had a choice, I would rather face a knife wielding person with a kubotan than to face him empty handed.



Yes, good advice. If a knife attacks it is best to gas them or light them up then take them out with baton or other strikes. Although if you gas em, especially with cone spray, you may get blowback. Kubaton is good for hammer strikes. That is all I use mine for. I don't keep keys on it. Life is not perfect, gotta do best you can.


----------



## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> The strength of the continuous beam is not so much as it interfere as it BLINDS/TAKE'S AWAY VISION, particularly at night in low lit conditions. The strobe interferes with the OODA LOOP by making it difficult at worst and impossible at best for an assailant to get a good sense of the movements and distance of the person holding the strobe light even though he can still very briefly see him in between flashes (especially in situations outside of night time and low lit conditions). It's also irritating as H*** to be flashed in your face by it. Very annoying and can be a distraction. I never denied the distraction or disorientation factor of the strobe light. My arguments against it's use were based on using it at night and how the person with the light can also be negatively affected by the strobe light even if he's not as badly affected by it as his attacker.
> 
> But to me the (important) difference between blinding/taking away the vision and mere distraction is that if you use the continuous beam at night to take away your attacker's vision you can keep the light on and in his face and attack at will in which there is basically nothing your attacker can do to counteract it (unless he's a d'bag and has a mirror in his hand). But with the distraction you only have a split second or two to take advantage of whatever disruption of his OODA LOOP you are able to obtain. In other words, although I am reconsidering my initial position of the usefulness of the strobe mode I am still of the position that the strobe function has a couple of downsides that continuous beam does not have.
> 
> But I got the idea of revisiting and reassessing my position while watching parts 3 and 4 of Jared Wihongi's 4 part youtube videos on using the very tactical flashlight which started this thread.
> 
> If I do conclude that there is value in using the strobe feature of a tactical flashlight it would be for my own reasons based on my own research, training and experimentation and NOT simply because the tactical flashlights marketers say it is without them providing their own research and experiments to validate why they say so. At the risk of coming off as being condescending I think this separates me from most of the masses of tactical flashlight consumers.



This should all be settled on YT. Make a video timing how long useful vison takes to return when being blinded from various lumen lights.


----------



## Invisibleflash

Psilent Knight said:


> I get what you're saying and I do appreciate the idea but here are two possible problem's with the flanking idea:
> 
> 1) I don't think the assailant is going to _stand perfectly still in one spot_. This is why I said it will not be as textbook as the video makes it out to be. You have to flank him while somehow leaving your arm in the right position to keep the light directly in his face. Just try doing this yourself with a training partner who is allowed to react naturally and you'll see that it's easier said than done.
> 
> 2) It's an extra step or movement that you're better off skipping. If I have my light shining in a bad guy's eyes and have succeeded in taking away his vision I would rather take maximum advantage of that moment and drop him with one move (say a right cross to his jaw or a palm stick to his clavicle or sternum) instead of taking unnecessary chances with two moves (step to his left first while somehow keeping my adrenaline filled arm where it needs to be to keep the light perfectly in his eyes and *then* drop him).
> 
> Have a look at the second video again and look at the sequence where the female is at her car giving the bad guy the business. She has the light in her left hand directed toward his face and going to work on him with the weapon in her right hand. Which would have a better chance of saving her in a _fast paced, adrenaline filled attack_; that which she's doing already in the video or trying to flank him in between shots with the weapon in her right hand?
> 
> I'll reiterate that I most certainly appreciate the concept of flanking someone while shining a bright light in his eyes but I think that concept takes second seat to simply attacking him while you can as soon as the opportunity presents itself. James Williams himself does teach such a concept as evidenced in the video below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Remember, he can't see what movements you're making behind that light anyway so _deliberately_ looking to flank him is unnecessary imo. If you just so happen to naturally flank him during the altercation then that's great. By all means take advantage of that moment if you do. But I would rather focus on surviving and escaping instead of fixing my mind on any one tactic, be it flanking or otherwise.



Good video, good advice, esp 'get out' after strike. But light is too short. If they got a knife, a longer light can be used in a hammer fist to the temple. Once they use deadly force, all bets are off. Make sure they don't get up and take off after you...with knife.

Here is a quote form an old mentor of mine...Jeff Cooper on consideration. (Quote condensed)

"Anyone who willfully and maliciously attacks another without sufficient cause deserves no consideration. We are fully justified in valuing the life and person of the intended victim more highly than the life of the pernicious assailant. The attacked must be stopped - at once and completely. An armed man is dangerous as long as he is conscious. Take no chances - put him out. When your life is in danger and under lethal attack don't be kind - Be harsh - Be tough - Be ruthless.'


----------



## lklawson

Invisibleflash said:


> You can't shoot everyone that pushes you.


A "push" is seldom justification for Deadly Force regardless of the tool used.  Even in New York you can't bludgeon someone to death with a flashlight "that just pushes you."  The firearm, knife, or bludgeoning D-Cell Mag Light, are all considered Deadly Force.  Sorry, but it's a non sequitur argument.

Choose the most effective tool which you can legally use in your environment and can effectively employ (preferably because you've gotten training in proper and effective use) whether it's a gun, a knife, or pepper spray.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Buka

Invisibleflash said:


> You can't shoot everyone that pushes you. In NYC you can't carry a gun. Now what's your plan? If you are an old man and can still fight, great for you. But all us old guys are not that lucky.



I never said anything about shooting anyone. I haven't had to shoot anyone, hopefully never will.
If you're in the same profession as I am in NYC you have to carry a gun, you don't have the option not to.

What's my plan concerning what exactly?

And I'll tell you what, fella', being old and being able to fight has nothing what-so-ever to do with luck.

And welcome to Martial Talk.


----------



## drop bear

Invisibleflash said:


> Yes, never thought about that. I'd have to see how the strobe affected me in the dark.



The closer you are the more the strobe effect bounces back.

I mostly use it to signal cops and ambulances because it is a unique signal. 

And just use the light on bad guys.


----------



## drop bear

Invisibleflash said:


> What is wrong with kubaton?
> 
> I don't use one for keys, but they are great for hammer fist strikes. Although in NYC can't carry em. As was noted earlier, flashlight is your kubaton in NYC.



It is not enough weapon to drop that 150 kilo islander you have for some reason enraged.

But it is enough weapon to convince him you are trying to stab him.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Invisibleflash said:


> My light only has full power or off. I used to have a low and high setting light. Had an altercation and used low by mistake. That was enough of a lucky warning for me.


For a light intended for tactical or SD use, I'm not wild about the multiple settings, unless they're controlled by a different switch. I want to push the button and have the light come on, at its brightest.

For a utility light, I like high and low (to save battery), but the flash has no use there.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Invisibleflash said:


> What is wrong with kubaton?
> 
> I don't use one for keys, but they are great for hammer fist strikes. Although in NYC can't carry em. As was noted earlier, flashlight is your kubaton in NYC.


Getting your kubotan out and into your hand is a pretty big distraction for something that you can use as a marginal aid for a specific strike. I can also leverage it (pun intended) in grappling, but wouldn't reach for it in the chaos. If I had something in my hand that served, I'd use it, but otherwise, I'm better off not reaching for it - not enough advantage for the compromised second or two.


----------

