# Flash Mobs and race



## Archangel M (Aug 16, 2011)

If you have been following the trend, there seems to be an increase in "flash mob" incidents  around the country. It has gotten so bad in Philadelphia that the mayor is imposing a curfew. Under it all simmers the issue of race. In these most recent incidents the mobs have been predominantly African-American. 

The Philly Mayor Michael Nutter has recently come under the media spotlight for addressing the racial issue:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...mobs-black-mayor-takes-aim-at-black-community



> In a combative speech on Sunday at Mount Carmel Baptist Church in Philadelphia, Mayor Nutter said that young black men have to stop acting like "sperm donors" and "human ATMs." He admonished parents for failing to supervise and expect good behavior from their children. And he directly implicated habits and styles of some young black men in the city.
> 
> "If you walk into somebody's office with your hair uncombed and a pick in the back, and your shoes untied and your pants half-down, tattoos up and down your arms and on your neck, and you wonder why somebody won't hire you?" Nutter told the congregation "They don't hire you 'cause you look like you're crazy. You have damaged your own race."
> 
> "I am a proud black man in this country," Nutter said in a subsequent interview with the Associated Press. "It was a message that needed to be said. It needed to be said at this time . . . People have had enough of this nonsense, black and white."



Opinions?


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

I quiet don't see the connection.

What I have seen of flashmobs, I figured they were the thing of the nerdy white people...

But it really is a leap from being dorky (k, didn't see any phily flashmobs) to sperm donor/ATMs or somebody walking into a job interview as described. 

Flash mobs are stupid...
but ?? 
I think somebody has to tell those young guys that drooping pants are not cool, sexy, whatever...

(still failing to see the connect...)


EDIT:
k, see it now.
but I suppose as black guy the mayor can tell them they are stupid.....


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## Archangel M (Aug 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> I quiet don't see the connection.
> 
> What I have seen of flashmobs, I figured they were the thing of the nerdy white people...
> 
> ...



These mobs are roaming the streets assaulting people...


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## Archangel M (Aug 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> but I suppose as black guy the mayor can tell them they are stupid.....



Theres a discussion to be had with that idea right there IMO....


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## Sukerkin (Aug 16, 2011)

Well, it is one thing to try and tell a segment of your population to "shape up!" (and from the description boy do they need it); it is quite another to get them to do it.  The root of lawlessness has had too many decades to burrow deep, shielded from weed-killer by too much pandering to political correctness and fertiliser given to all the wrong forms of 'growth'.

Some people have enough character to resist the trends and pressures of their environment, they are the ones that grow up to be productive members of their society and should be held up as role models to their communities - sadly, they seem to be the ones that are not respected and the villains (and lack-wits pretending to be villains) are the ones that are.


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 16, 2011)

I think this speech is just a case of the mayor taking the easy way out and blaming hair and tattoos instead of looking at the environment which breeds this type of behaviour and the problems that ensue.

It's easy to blame hair and tattoos like it was easy to blame music for all of societies ills in the 80's. 
The truth is that when education and the economy are in such bad shape the people will follow...

Maybe Nutter should get to work and stop passing the buck and looking for excuses.


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> These mobs are roaming the streets assaulting people...



I think it's racist that nothing was done sooner. 




Archangel M said:


> Theres a discussion to be had with that idea right there IMO....



let's discuss....should be fun because this would happen on the wafer thin ice of PCness this county runs on 





Sukerkin said:


> Well, it is one thing to try and tell a segment of your population to "shape up!" (and from the description boy do they need it); it is quite another to get them to do it.  The root of lawlessness has had too many decades to burrow deep, shielded from weed-killer by too much pandering to political correctness and fertiliser given to all the wrong forms of 'growth'.
> 
> Some people have enough character to resist the trends and pressures of their environment, they are the ones that grow up to be productive members of their society and should be held up as role models to their communities - sadly, they seem to be the ones that are not respected and the villains (and lack-wits pretending to be villains) are the ones that are.




man, when i grow up I want to be this smart ^_^


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 16, 2011)

> Some people have enough character to resist the trends and pressures of their environment,



What about working on that environment? 
Isn't that what the mayor is paid to do?

I'm not saying that these people who are commiting these crimes should get a pass, throw them in jail definetely, but to make the larger problem go away, you'll need alot more than blame, you'll need to improve the conditions these people are growing up in.


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

SensibleManiac said:


> What about working on that environment?
> Isn't that what the mayor is paid to do?
> 
> I'm not saying that these people who are commiting these crimes should get a pass, throw them in jail definetely, but to make the larger problem go away, you'll need alot more than blame, you'll need to improve the conditions these people are growing up in.



well, true.
but:
that takes money
lots of it. 
It takes a policy that prevents people from crying foul every time they are disciplined.

There is an element of guilt you can't ignore: We, as a whole have allowed thugs to become role models. 
It's been longtime in the making, people who are excused for all their shortcomings, because they have one quality we like. Mostly in sport. Somehow there was this gangsta crap allowed to emerge...
You don't like the ball player who just beat up his pregnant GF? You must be racist.
You don't like 'musicians' rapping of murder and cop killing....yep, tight a** racist.

We have allowed to settle for a lowest common denominator.
No kid left behind? BS!
There is always somebody who gets screwed. under that program the smart kids are getting the shaft. The ones we need to further for the sake of the country and the world. Not the ball players, however amusing it might be. (Panem et circenses - keep'em entertained and fed, so they don't notice the screw job)

What was meant well - you know, not being allowed to put a person down because of what makes them different - has grown into some fantastic excesses....now you have to watch yourself even expressing that a person is not like you!

People are up in arms when dress codes are implemented in schools. They should be appalled that such is even needed! Rant against uniforms, when studies show the test scores go up when uniforms are worn...(not to mention if you flunk school, the Golden Arches has uniforms, too...even Walmart has a dress code/uniform!!) 

Maybe it is no different from the 60s and 70s, I am sure similar things were uttered about the outward appearance if long haired people with their corduroy pants and hushpuppy shoes....

But somewhere there is that 'if you don't want to be treated like a <insert group of choice> don't act like one!' that eludes a lot of people.
No, I do not dislike you because you are green with purple polka dots, I hate you because you are a jerk....but that gets lost...you don't like me, you're a hatin....



NOW, where was I?
Oh, on my way for more coffee....


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## Big Don (Aug 16, 2011)

These stupid things are more about youth screwing off than black people or white people, or those damn blue people screwing off


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2011)

no, this is about gangs of black kids going around with the sole intent and purpose of assaulting whites.

it isnt a freak occurance, it is happening A LOT, and it is deadly.


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## MaxiMe (Aug 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> It takes a policy that prevents people from crying foul every time they are disciplined.
> 
> 
> NOW, where was I?
> Oh, on my way for more coffee....


Isn't that what they mayor is doing?. I heard him on the news last week. I' don't careif your white ,black, blue, smerf or troll. A cerfue is a curfew. You violate and you get punished. Seem fair and reasonable to me.

Black no sugar for me please


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Isn't that what they mayor is doing?. I heard him on the news last week. I' don't careif your white ,black, blue, smerf or troll. A cerfue is a curfew. You violate and you get punished. Seem fair and reasonable to me.
> 
> Black no sugar for me please



Ah, was busy, didn't catch Philly news...
But it's certainly how it ought to be.


Hope you don't mind it's just Maxwel House...


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

Big Don said:


> These stupid things are more about youth screwing off than black people or white people, or those damn blue people screwing off



Smurfs?
Or Navi?


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## Archangel M (Aug 16, 2011)

MaxiMe said:


> Isn't that what they mayor is doing?. I heard him on the news last week. I' don't careif your white ,black, blue, smerf or troll. A cerfue is a curfew. You violate and you get punished. Seem fair and reasonable to me.
> 
> Black no sugar for me please



In theory.

But in practice what areas of the City do you think are getting the bulk of enforcement and what group of people are going to claim that they are being racially targeted? Community leaders (in that article) are already complaining..as a matter of fact the ACLU is filing suit.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...k-mayor-takes-aim-at-black-community/(page)/2


> Some point to Nutter's curfew and aggressive "stop-and-frisk" policy as evidence of a growing gap between poor and middle-class blacks that has been exacerbated by the poor economy. A federal lawsuit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union in November, alleging that the searches, which Nutter began when he came into office, were violating the rights of blacks and Latinos who had done nothing wrong.


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## seasoned (Aug 16, 2011)

It stems from a huge lack of respect for yourself, and all sorts of authority. It starts at home at a very young age and carries into adulthood. It's the attitude that "you owe me something". 
I have a part time job that puts me in contact with many young people that lack the discipline and respect to even dress appropriately to appear in a court of law. 
It bridges all races and genders.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2011)

but these roving bands of youths assaulting people DONT bridge all races and genders

and THAT is what we are talking about, roving groups of black people grabbing whites and only whites and trying to murder them


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

seasoned said:


> It stems from a huge lack of respect for yourself, and all sorts of authority. It starts at home at a very young age and carries into adulthood. It's the attitude that "you owe me something".
> I have a part time job that puts me in contact with many young people that lack the discipline and respect to even dress appropriately to appear in a court of law.
> It bridges all races and genders.



Excellent point.
Barney aid we was spechul! 
(that other Barney would have known to nip it...in the butt!)


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> but these roving bands of youths assaulting people DONT bridge all races and genders
> 
> and THAT is what we are talking about, roving groups of black people grabbing whites and only whites and trying to murder them



You are being phobic.

being jerks is not unique to a race ore one locale...
but I do dare venture a guess most suffer from too much testosterone....


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## Archangel M (Aug 16, 2011)

This is the latest incident to hit the news and what put the idea for this post into my mind:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...ryland-police-investigate-store-robbery-VIDEO



> Possibly three dozen people walked into a Maryland 7-11 convenience store early last Saturday morning and walked out with candy, drinks, and other snacks in what appears to be another instance of a flash mob robbery.



While not a "riot" per se. It's another example of this spreading trend.

[yt]syRtqc31yrE[/yt]


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2011)

granfire said:


> You are being phobic.
> 
> being jerks is not unique to a race ore one locale...
> but I do dare venture a guess most suffer from too much testosterone....




no, i am being ACCURATE

NO ONE SAID IT WAS UNIQUE TO BLACKS


but the cases we are discussing ARE

you are so GD'd quick to be PC you dont even pay attention to what is being said.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2011)

and this isnt being jerks, this is theft and assualt, attempted murder even


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## seasoned (Aug 16, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> but these roving bands of youths assaulting people DONT bridge all races and genders



I understand that, just addressing some root causes, Whether B or W, M or F.




Twin Fist said:


> and THAT is what we are talking about, roving groups of black people grabbing whites and only whites and trying to murder them



The OP asked for thoughts, and that is what I gave. If I left it to face value, "blacks stealing things, and beating up whites", that would not lend itself to a solution based discussion worth talking about in the study, now would it??


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## MA-Caver (Aug 16, 2011)

It starts at home... parents not teaching their children right and wrong then the kids get older and roam the streets following bad advice (lets knock off a 7-11 or go find anybody and beat them up) and thus giving themselves a bad name. 
Sure it's a mayors job... provided the mayor is the type of leader the people will follow. Being insulting doesn't help but knowing how to address people so that they'll wake up and see what is happening in their own little community/town/city is not a good thing going. 
Blaming this or that doesn't take it to the source of the problem (which needs to be correctly identified), and it doesn't solve it either.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2011)

do you care why a rapist rapes?


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> If you have been following the trend, there seems to be an increase in "flash mob" incidents  around the country. It has gotten so bad in Philadelphia that the mayor is imposing a curfew. Under it all simmers the issue of race. In these most recent incidents the mobs have been predominantly African-American.
> 
> The Philly Mayor Michael Nutter has recently come under the media spotlight for addressing the racial issue:
> 
> ...



I agree with the Mayor!  IMO, I dont think people are getting as upset compared to if this was a white mayor.  Holy ****, watch out...all hell would break loose then.  Race aside, he's telling these people to stop acting like *******s and grow up!

From the article:

 "while others say this approach lets the mayor off the hook for failing to address the needs of young black Philadelphians."

What does this mean?  




Archangel M said:


> These mobs are roaming the streets assaulting people...



I saw that on the news.  What a bunch of scumbags.  This is proving what?  IMO, its proving that there are alot of people with no lives, nothing better to do, than run around being *******s!


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2011)

SensibleManiac said:


> I think this speech is just a case of the mayor taking the easy way out and blaming hair and tattoos instead of looking at the environment which breeds this type of behaviour and the problems that ensue.
> 
> It's easy to blame hair and tattoos like it was easy to blame music for all of societies ills in the 80's.
> The truth is that when education and the economy are in such bad shape the people will follow...
> ...



Yes, the economy sucks, but running around like a bunch of animals isn't proving anything either.  People can control their own lives.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 16, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> do you care why a rapist rapes?


 Who me? Not that it matters except to aid in knowing why so that a possible means of prevention could be found. Why do people kill? Why do they steal? Why do they lie, cheat, or do anything that is illegal by our laws in this country? Our society says these things are wrong and it was by a majority vote that these laws were passed and implemented. 
Those who do not abide by our laws will eventually get caught and punished. 

Big question or the real question is/should be... why do they HATE?


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2011)

seasoned said:


> It stems from a huge lack of respect for yourself, and all sorts of authority. It starts at home at a very young age and carries into adulthood. It's the attitude that "you owe me something".
> I have a part time job that puts me in contact with many young people that lack the discipline and respect to even dress appropriately to appear in a court of law.
> It bridges all races and genders.



Bingo!  You hit the nail on the head with this post!  Kids will learn what they live.  That being said, apparently their parents are winners just like their kids.  *being sarcastic there  *


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## seasoned (Aug 17, 2011)

seasoned said:


> It stems from a huge lack of respect for yourself, and all sorts of authority. It starts at home at a very young age and carries into adulthood. It's the attitude that "you owe me something".





MA-Caver said:


> Big question or the real question is/should be... why do they HATE?



People are taught to hate. And that teaching, or lack of, is a great motivator, to cause a divide between haves and have not's. The problem is huge and getting bigger. The laws being broken in the OP video are the end game of a long sad situation. The present administration won't be satisfied until they level the playing field and all hell lets loose. Like I said a few posts back, It's the attitude that "you owe me something". And when that something is not given, then it is taken. When the people in that OP vid go home with all that stuff, what do they tell *their *kids, if they have any. The Mayor is telling people to man up and take responsability, I say time is running OUT.


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## WC_lun (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't think there is one single answer to why.  I do think race as base cause is not accurate and just plays into the phobias.  I do believe a lot of it is socio-economic.  Many of these kids are growing up with very little hope of ever escaping the poverty they are being raised in.  The few people they do see escaping the poverty are athletes, musicians, and criminals, many of who flaunt a thug type life style.  Compassion for others and respect for oneself start to erode when those qualities are not taught and shown as inherently weak.  Since most poor are minority in this country it starts to look like a race issue.  It becomes like a snake eating its tail when minority youth believe this is how they are supposed to act, making it a self fullfilling prophesy.  The truth is no young person of any race is inherently prone to violence like this.  It is taught, many cases by society at large.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> The truth is no young person of any race is inherently prone to violence like this.



true, but certain cultures and groups do not by and large teach respect for the law, the property of others, etc

like poor people for example. Followers of "thug life" for another example


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## Big Don (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> true, but certain cultures and groups do not by and large teach respect for the law, the property of others, etc
> 
> like poor people for example. Followers of "thug life" for another example


Uh, I thought you were "Kind of done with this"...


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> do you care why a rapist rapes?



Yes, I do, as should judges, law enforcement, legislatures, and society as a whole.  That doesn't mean that there's an excuse for it, but ignoring the psychology behind criminal behavior is effectively burying your head in the sand and waiting for it to happen again.


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## WC_lun (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> true, but certain cultures and groups do not by and large teach respect for the law, the property of others, etc
> 
> like poor people for example. Followers of "thug life" for another example



The "thug life" comment I can agree with because of what it is.  The poor people part is total nonsense.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

"kind of"

doesnt mean 

"am"

and what do you care?




Big Don said:


> Uh, I thought you were "Kind of done with this"...


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

So that entire thread only "kind of" needed to be posted?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

i disagree because crime is an irrational act most of the time, so the motivations will not make sense to a rational person. And in the end it is irrelevant. If it is a crime, punish the person doing it, no matter why they did it. Sure, SOME circumstances are mitigating, but that isnt really that common is it?



RandomPhantom700 said:


> Yes, I do, as should judges, law enforcement, legislatures, and society as a whole.  That doesn't mean that there's an excuse for it, but ignoring the psychology behind criminal behavior is effectively burying your head in the sand and waiting for it to happen again.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

I am not the subject of this thread, you want to ask me something, do it in PM please, thread drift is a BAD THING if i remember right.



RandomPhantom700 said:


> So that entire thread only "kind of" needed to be posted?


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## Big Don (Aug 17, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I don't think there is one single answer to why.


I disagree, there is one single answer: Some people are asses who do not behave the way they ought. 





> I do think race as base


I don't think race is an excuse for anything. If you are being a jerk, you're a jerk, what you look like really has no bearing on it.
The truest statement you will read today: You cannot tell a bad person on sight.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i disagree because crime is an irrational act most of the time, so the motivations will not make sense to a rational person. And in the end it is irrelevant. If it is a crime, punish the person doing it, no matter why they did it. Sure, SOME circumstances are mitigating, but that isnt really that common is it?



Let's go with your example then: rape.  Who cares why people rape, right?  It's a criminal act, so we should just shoot those who commit it.  Well, for starters, knowing what general factors lead to rape occurring can help policy-makers and law enforcement in predicting and possibly combatting its frequency.  Also, a person committing rape because it gives them a feeling of power is a very different indicator from a person committing rape because the victim looked so hot and was just irresistable.  Only in the second situation would a victim's choice of clothing possibly have had anything to do with leading to the rape.  (And before anyone tries it, no I'm not saying we should blame the victim. It's just an example of what difference motivation can have.) 

Or how about drug use?  Why people use drugs is a pretty damn good indicator of how the DEA and State agencies can properly combat its use, predict where potential buyers will crop up, and what type of criminal response scenarios are likely to involve suspects who are high.  

I think the fundamental difference, though, is that your attempt to dismiss the motivations behind criminal acts, or to say that their motives don't matter, is an attempt to put a false barrier between "them" and "us".  If we ignore the motivation behind crime and only react to crimes, "they" are just going to continue appearing among "us".


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

it is more a matter of "i am not interested in giving them an excuse"


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Big Don said:


> I disagree, there is one single answer: Some people are asses who do not behave the way they ought.
> I don't think race is an excuse for anything. If you are being a jerk, you're a jerk, what you look like really has no bearing on it.
> The truest statement you will read today: You cannot tell a bad person on sight.



Saying that race has something to do with it is not to say that it excuses the behavior.  Also, "being a jerk", or more accurately "acting like a jerk", most often has causes of its own.  People are not born criminals; at best, their genetics give them propensities.  The idea that criminals are just criminals by nature is a poor attempt to comfort ourselves into believing that it could never happen to us or ours.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> it is more a matter of "i am not interested in giving them an excuse"



Neither am I.


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## Big Don (Aug 17, 2011)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Saying that race has something to do with it is not to say that it excuses the behavior.  Also, "being a jerk", or more accurately "acting like a jerk", most often has causes of its own.  People are not born criminals; at best, their genetics give them propensities.  The idea that criminals are just criminals by nature is a poor attempt to comfort ourselves into believing that it could never happen to us or ours.


In essence human nature is selfish. Civilization and culture, along with self-restraint make people polite enough to live with. As to being vs acting like, I disagree, some people refuse to comply with social mores to the point that they are only acting when they are not being jerks.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Big Don said:


> In essence human nature is selfish. Civilization and culture, along with self-restraint make people polite enough to live with.



Generally speaking, I agree with this part.  I will only point out that self-restraint, like any other aspect of one's personality, is a result of both nature and nurture.  Which again, and I'm bolding for TF's sake, *DOES NOT MAKE AN EXCUSE FOR IT!*



> As to being vs acting like, I disagree, some people refuse to comply with social mores to the point that they are only acting when they are not being jerks.



Ok, so?  I've no doubt that there are many who only behave on this forum because they don't want to be hit by the banhammer.  My only contention is that there is no point at which we can say "ok, that person isn't human anymore, he's just a monster and we can ignore his motivations".  Sorry, but even the most heinous of criminals is still human and had some psychology behind their choices.  Understanding that psychology can yield a lot of information, and (again, bolded for Twin Fist), *DOES NOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR OR NEGATE THEIR CHOICE*!


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know


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## MA-Caver (Aug 17, 2011)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Neither am I.


 Same here (giving them an excuse)


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know



Those are sociopaths. My layman's understanding is that they literally lack the ability to feel any type of sympathy, empathy, compassion, or other connection with other people. In the sociopath's mind, he or she is literally the only person in the world; all other humans are just really smart monkies. 

They are also, from what little I know on the subject, pretty rare; someone acting heartlessly doesn't in itself make that person a sociopath.  A teenager going through, well, teenaging doesn't make them a sociopath either.  And even sociopaths are humans, which has kinda been my point.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 17, 2011)

Twin  Fist said:


> true, but certain cultures and groups do not by and large  teach respect for the law, the property of others, etc
> 
> like poor people for example. Followers of "thug life" for another example


Lumping in "poor people" as followers of "thug life" is a misnomer and an mistaken assumption. Just because someone is poor, destitute, jobless but NOT out robbing people, stealing from stores, bilking the system, and so on does not a thug make. Remember that there are those from middle and upper classes who lead a double life being a thug. It's just for some reason we don't read about 'em in the paper because they're not generally stereotyped. I'm unemployed now for 7 months straight... yet I haven't robbed any stores or people or stolen cars or selling dope or whatever... am I a thug? Because I'm sure as hell am POOR! 



Big Don said:


> I disagree, there is one single answer: Some people are asses who do not behave the way they ought.


 And pray tell just WHO determines how anyone should behave? You? Me? Bob H? Billy Graham? Dali Lama? Who pray tell makes that determination of how one other should live? And then answer by what RIGHT do they have to tell another person how to behave as they ought to? Does anyone tell YOU how to behave? I mean outside your job/employment. 
I've said that society has written most of our laws based on what the majority desires to live comfortably, safely and respectfully. Someone acts outside those boundaries is going to pay the consequences of it. That is with ANY society on this planet. It's what THEY deem to be right. We'll gravitate towards the groups that best match our own philosophy of how we should live and co-exist with one another.   


Big Don said:


> You cannot tell a bad person on sight.


 Very true that. Ted Bundy got away with a lot. Same with some other infamous white collar criminals. 



RandomPhantom700 said:


> Let's  go with your example then: rape.  Who cares why people rape, right?   It's a criminal act, so we should just shoot those who commit it.  Well,  for starters, knowing what general factors lead to rape occurring can  help policy-makers and law enforcement in predicting and possibly combating its frequency.  Also, a person committing rape because it  gives them a feeling of power is a very different indicator from a  person committing rape because the victim looked so hot and was just irresistible.  Only in the second situation would a victim's choice of  clothing possibly have had anything to do with leading to the rape.   (And before anyone tries it, no I'm not saying we should blame the  victim. It's just an example of what difference motivation can have.)


 I know what you're saying just adding on that it's still the perp's choice to select that hottie with the short-short pants and loose tank-top walking down the street and turning into an alleyway for a short-cut home because the perp had already decided to get some sex by any means necessary. The hottie had no intention of drawing attention to herself... except maybe some cute guys she knows on her block who might playfully flirt with her... or simply she was just too lazy to do her laundry and what she was wearing was the only thing she had clean to wear to the store to buy more laundry soap. 
Irony of it that Iran and other muslim countries require their women to cover their bodies up completely but the women still end up getting raped, by their husbands or brothers in law when they're home. So how a woman dresses isn't going to be an invitation to have at her. 



RandomPhantom700 said:


> Or how about drug use?  Why people use drugs is a pretty damn good  indicator of how the DEA and State agencies can properly combat its use,  predict where potential buyers will crop up, and what type of criminal  response scenarios are likely to involve suspects who are high.


Yet don't they target specific economic classes more often than others? A lady I know lives in the projects with her teenage daughter. There are more cops in cars I've seen there than any other part of the city where I live. Hmmm, the potential is frightening. 



RandomPhantom700 said:


> I think the fundamental difference, though, is that your attempt to  dismiss the motivations behind criminal acts, or to say that their  motives don't matter, is an attempt to put a false barrier between  "them" and "us".  If we ignore the motivation behind crime and only  react to crimes, "they" are just going to continue appearing among  "us".


Finding out WHY people do the things that they do is a job for psychologists and sociologists not for LEO's. Though they may study the topics to have a better understanding of the people they're arresting, they've got a lot on the plate to worry about the whys... or that they simply DO see WHY but don't have the time, training to deal with it. 


RandomPhantom700 said:


> Generally speaking, I agree with this part.  I will only point out that self-restraint, like any other aspect of one's personality, is a result of both nature and nurture.  Which again, and I'm bolding for TF's sake, *DOES NOT MAKE AN EXCUSE FOR IT!*


 Agreed there are no excuses... a person makes a choice based on a series of thoughts, actions and feelings. Why they chose that particular route stems from those three. Understanding the reason does help. They still gotta pay the consequences based on our laws but hopefully help can be given to them so that (again) hopefully they won't repeat or threepeat. 



RandomPhantom700 said:


> Ok, so?  I've no doubt that there are many who only behave on this forum because they don't want to be hit by the banhammer.  My only contention is that there is no point at which we can say "ok, that person isn't human anymore, he's just a monster and we can ignore his motivations".  Sorry, but even the most heinous of criminals is still human and had some psychology behind their choices.  Understanding that psychology can yield a lot of information, and (again, bolded for Twin Fist), *DOES NOT EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR OR NEGATE THEIR CHOICE*!


 Again agreed. Yet we can prevent them from making the same choice again and again. So locking them away or putting them out of OUR misery for the moment is the viable solution... if therapy, counseling and harsh punishment doesn't change their thinking/feelings which lead them to those unfortunate choices. 

Unfortunate... for us.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 17, 2011)

Related news article. Read on. 


> A national study on child well-being to be published Wednesday found  that child poverty increased in 38 states from 2000 to 2009. As a  result, 14.7 million children, 20 percent, were poor in 2009. That  represents a 2.5 million increase from 2000, when 17 percent of the  nation's youth lived in low-income homes.
> http://news.yahoo.com/national-child-welfare-survey-examines-recession-052324006.html



Related snippets 


> "People who grew up in a financially secure situation find it easier to  succeed in life, they are more likely to graduate from high school, more  likely to graduate from college and these are things that will lead to  greater success in life," said Stephen Brown, director of the Center for  Business and Economic Research at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas.  "What we are looking at is a cohort of kids who as they become adults  may be less able to contribute to the growth of the economy. It could go  on for multiple generations."
> The annual survey monitored by  policy makers across the nation concludes that children from low-income  families are more likely to be raised in unstable environments and  change schools than their wealthier peers. As a result, they are less  likely to be gainfully employed as adults.
> There  are other social costs. Economically disadvantaged children can result  in reduced economic output, higher health expenditures and increased  criminal justice costs for society, the survey concludes. The research  is based on data from many sources, including the Mortgage Bankers  Association, National Delinquency Survey and U.S. Census Bureau.
> "Even  if you don't care about kids and all you care about is your own  well-being, then you ought to be concerned," said Patrick McCarthy,  president of the Baltimore, Md.-based charity. "... We've got to think  about what kind of state, what kind of country we can expect to have if  we are not investing in the success of our children." In the two decades since  researchers began compiling the annual report, infant mortalities, child  and teen deaths and high school dropout rates have declined. But the  number of unhealthy babies have increased, and there were far more  children living in low-income families.
> Programs  such as food stamps, unemployment insurance and foreclosure meditation  have acted like a dam against the flood of poverty, McCarthy said, but  that assistance has been threatened by federal and state government  budget cuts.



Sooo, it's just a matter of time. Unless something can be done radically altering the fate of these kids growing up and learning from the so-called thugs of their neighborhood... the problem will get worse exponentially.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> Lumping in "poor people" as followers of "thug life" is a misnomer and an mistaken assumption.



i didnt lump them together. You can be poor and obey the law, or rich and a thug


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## SensibleManiac (Aug 17, 2011)

> arent there certain classes of criminals that simply do not have compassion wired into them? they are not really "human" are they? they have no motivations, they do what they want to because they want to. i dont know



Wired into them?

If by this you mean it's not in their dna then no, the way people behave is mostly learned and dependent on their environment, this doesn't excuse this type of behaviour, only gives a reason for it.

Compassion just like a lack of it are mostly learned.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

We live in a society that generally romanticizes criminal behavior, and embraces the criminal ideology of _getting away with it_. We cheer on thieves and scoundrels in movies like _The Hot Rock, The Italian Job, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, The Thomas Crown Affair, Oceans Eleven, The Score, _and _Entrapment_, just off the top of my head. We enjoy seeing people commit criminal acts of violence in others, and have rooted for murder plots since Alec Guiness played seven roles in _Kind Hearts and Coronets_ , way back in 1950 (a great British black-comedy, and worth seeing again!). Over herein the U.S., we've romanticized vicious real world criminals like John "the dapper Don" Gotti, John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, and Bugsy Siegel-to name just a few, all the way back to Jesse James and Billy the Kid. Here in the U.S., anyway, it's part of our heritage.

I'm not even going to get into the whole "mob mentality" thing, except to point out that the looters apprehended for the recent rioting in London included a school worker, a postman, a millionaire's daughter, a lifeguard and a charity worker. 

It's not cultural or racial-it's *human*.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 18, 2011)

i agree

but

the mobs in question DO share culture (seemingly)and race.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i agree
> 
> but
> 
> the mobs in question DO share culture (seemingly)and race.





So, _seemingly_, did this one.Guess "flash mobs" are a white invention....:lol:  (Since as the conversation is about "flash mobs and race, " anyway...)


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## billc (Aug 18, 2011)

Hmmm...it may escape Janeane Garafalo, but I would wager a princely sum that the people in that photo voted for democrats at the time that picture was taken, that the people who did this horrible thing were democrats and the police who obviously stood by were democrats and if those responsible went to trial, the jury that let them walk was composed of democrats.  So, Janeane Garafalo, who continues the myth that republicans belong to a party of racists, needs to look back into American History to see where the racists have always found a political home.

To get a good look at mob violence, take a look at Ann Coulter's new book, "Demonic," which discusses mob violence in American history.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Hmmm...it may escape Janeane Garafalo, but I would wager a princely sum that the people in that photo voted for democrats at the time that picture was taken, that the people who did this horrible thing were democrats and the police who obviously stood by were democrats and if those responsible went to trial, the jury that let them walk was composed of democrats. So, Janeane Garafalo, who continues the myth that republicans belong to a party of racists, needs to look back into American History to see where the racists have always found a political home.
> 
> To get a good look at mob violence, take a look at Ann Coulter's new book, "Demonic," which discusses mob violence in American history.





WHile the police were complicit in this event, the only one who was tried for it was another young black man who escaped lynching, and was convicted of being an accessory to murder and served four years in prison.This lynchng is noted as the last to take place in a _northern_ state, and it took place on Aug. 12, *1930*, in *Marion, Indiana*. A *Republican* stronghold since the days of Lincoln......:lfao:

[yt]POX4YSnxjro[/yt]


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## Twin Fist (Aug 18, 2011)

you gotta go back 70 years to try and stay relevant?



elder999 said:


> So, _seemingly_, did this one.Guess "flash mobs" are a white invention....:lol:  (Since as the conversation is about "flash mobs and race, " anyway...)


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you gotta go back 70 years to try and stay relevant?



Modern humans have been on the planet for about 200,000 years. Since my entire point was that this was _human_ behavior, *all* examples from human history would be relevant.


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## billc (Aug 18, 2011)

And yet, the democrats were still the klan members, from wikipedia on the indiana politics:

*David Curtiss "Steve" Stephenson* (21 August 1891 &#8211; 28 June 1966) was an American Grand Dragon(state leader) of the Ku Klux Klan in the U.S. state of Indiana and 22 other Northern states. He is considered to have been one of the most successful Klan leaders up until his downfall after his conviction for murder. His trial and imprisonment contributed to the end of the second wave of Klan activity in the 1920s.

[h=2]Contents[/h] [hide]​
1 Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan
2 Convicted of murder
3 Cultural reference
4 References
5 Further reading
6 External links

[h=2][edit]Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan[/h]Stephenson was born in Houston, Texas, and moved with his family to Maysville, Oklahoma, where he worked as a printer's apprentice and was active in the Socialist Party. In 1920, he moved to Irvington, Indiana, where he became a salesman and joined the Democratic Party and the Ku Klux Klan. In that same year, he ran unsuccessfully for a Democratic Congressional nomination.[SUP][1][/SUP] In November 1922, Stephenson backed Hiram Wesley Evans in his attempt to unseat William J. Simmons as Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan; upon Evans' ascendancy, Stephenson was made Grand Dragon of Indiana and 22 other northernstates.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> And yet, the democrats were still the klan members,.



Don't see a single *white sheet* in that photo, just lots of _white faces_, including a few women, who weren't Klan members in that particular iteration.


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## billc (Aug 18, 2011)

From PBS on the ku klux klan and their mob activities against republicans:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/grant-kkk/



> t the time of





> Ulysses S. Grant's election to the presidency, white supremacists were conducting a reign of terror throughout the South. In outright defiance of the Republican-led federal government, Southern Democrats formed organizations that violently intimidated blacks and Republicans who tried to win political power.
> The most prominent of these, the Ku Klux Klan, was formed in Pulaski, Tennessee, in 1865. Originally founded as a social club for former Confederate soldiers, the Klan evolved into a terrorist organization. It would be responsible for thousands of deaths, and would help to weaken the political power of Southern blacks and Republicans.



SO, THE HISTORY OF THE DEMOCRAT PARTY INVOLVED MOB ACTION AND TERRORISM, AS WELL AS SLAVERY, JIM CROW AND SEGREGATION.  THIS IS OFF TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE PHOTOGRAGH DESERVED TO BE PUT IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT, ESPECIALLY WITH THE INCREDIBLY DUMB REMARKS BY JANEANE GARAFALO.  I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO CONTINUE ON ANOTHER THREAD TO ALLOW THIS THREAD TO GO BACK TO MODERN MOB VIOLENCE, BY LEFT LEANERS.


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## billc (Aug 18, 2011)

Sheets or not, they were still democrats.  The founding of the klan was to fight freed slaves and republicans who freed the slaves.  In the discussion of recent mob violence in Britain as well as here in the states, where would one guess the political leanings of the mob actors would be?  Sleep tight.  Oh, before I leave, what was that one word in the wikipedia article, I almost missed it in my comments, 



> Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan[/h]Stephenson was born in Houston, Texas, and moved with his family to Maysville, Oklahoma, where he worked as a printer's apprentice and was active in the Socialist Party.



Can you say, "Socialist."


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> SO, THE HISTORY OF THE DEMOCRAT PARTY INVOLVED MOB ACTION AND TERRORISM, AS WELL AS SLAVERY, JIM CROW AND SEGREGATION. THIS IS OFF TOPIC, BUT I BELIEVE THE PHOTOGRAGH DESERVED TO BE PUT IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT, ESPECIALLY WITH THE INCREDIBLY DUMB REMARKS BY JANEANE GARAFALO. I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO CONTINUE ON ANOTHER THREAD TO ALLOW THIS THREAD TO GO BACK TO MODERN MOB VIOLENCE, BY LEFT LEANERS.



Why are you shouting? :lfao:



billcihak said:


> Sheets or not, they were still democrats.





Yes, I could tell that by the great big "Ds" tatooed on their foreheads, as was the custom in 1930. :lfao:

Marion county voted with a Republican majority from before the time of that lynching right up until 2004, which was the very first year it presented a Democrat majority in a Presidential election. Sorry. Have a look at the Indiana election results back to 1920




billcihak said:


> In the discussion of recent mob violence in Britain as well as here in the states, where would one guess the political leanings of the mob actors would be?



I'd guess that *they didn't have any political leanings.*


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## Archangel M (Aug 18, 2011)

I think it's interesting we are discussing the root causes of kids "flash mobbing" after twittering on their smartphones as being an issue of ...poverty.

I've been around parts of the globe and seen people living in cardboard box slums. Here in the US people have a strange idea of what poverty is.


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## elder999 (Aug 18, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> I think it's interesting we are discussing the root causes of kids "flash mobbing" after twittering on their smartphones as being an issue of ...poverty.
> 
> I've been around parts of the globe and seen people living in cardboard box slums. Here in the US people have a strange idea of what poverty is.



I'm not. _"Discussing the root causes of kids 'flash mobbing' after twittering on their smartphones as being an issue of...poverty_" that is.

It's not an issue of poverty. People caught looting in London had jobs, some of them good ones. One was a millionaire's daughter.

It's not an issue of culture-as I've demonstrated, people have *always* behaved this way, from time to time, and in a variety of cultures. (See: Armenian genocide, Kristallnacht, or Sand Creek Massacre)

It's not an issue of race-as I've demonstrated, people have *always* behaved this way, from time to time, and in a variety of cultures.(See above, again, and elsewhere, forever, and ever, and ever, amen.....)

It is *seriously not* a_religious__political_, or _party_ issue-people have *always *behaved this way, from time to time, and across various party, political and religious lines. (See _Sand Creek Massacre,_ committed by John Chivington, Republican and Methodist ministe, just for starters, or look to Hindu on Muslim violence, or Republican on union violence, or union on republican violence, etc., etc., etc.) In fact, anyone who tries to color them that way is an.....well, they're clearly missing the big picture.

It's a *human* issue. Pure and simple. Rory Miller wrote about mob violence in his excellent _Meditations on Violence_-he gives it the rather unfortunate (for these circumstances) but accurate name of the _group monkey dance._

People have *always* behaved like this, from time to time, and it doesn't matter what race or culture, or even how they were raised. In a mob, "right and wrong" go right out the window.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Hmmm...it may escape Janeane Garafalo, but I would wager a princely sum that the people in that photo voted for democrats at the time that picture was taken, that the people who did this horrible thing were democrats and the police who obviously stood by were democrats and if those responsible went to trial, the jury that let them walk was composed of democrats.



I personally don't think it matters one damned bit what political leaning those and other people have. Racial hatred doesn't belong to any one particular group of people. It's mulch-cultural. Look at how early Australians treated the native Aborigines... were they (early Aussies) democrats? Probably not... but they sure as hell were white. Japanese long hated the Chinese and committed atrocities ... were they democrats? How about Russians and Jews, Germans and Jews and the rest of non-Aryan Europe. Spaniards and Aztecs/Mayans/Incas... Conquerors? Sure... but still racially motivated  beyond the lust for gold or other treasures. European nations viewing themselves as racially superior (more civilized) to the savage blacks of Africa during early colonists days of the 16th and 17th centuries. 
Race hatred has been with mankind for centuries. 
Race hatred has been and always will be a bad and terrible thing and it will slow man's technological, sociological and psychological progress until it is eradicated completely.


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## Archangel M (Aug 18, 2011)

elder999 said:


> I'm not. _"Discussing the root causes of kids 'flash mobbing' after twittering on their smartphones as being an issue of...poverty_" that is.



You may not be, but others have. The critics of the Philly mayor have framed it as a poverty issue. And while you are right. For some reason the current wave of "Flash Mobbing crime" seems to be more popular among a particular population. Time will tell if its a media "tempest in a teapot" or a real problem I guess. From my perspective Im wondering if its a problem worth preparing for.


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## Archangel M (Aug 18, 2011)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-08-18-flash-mobs-police_n.htm



> A recent survey of 106 retailers nationwide by the National Retailer Federation showed that 80% had experienced multiple-offender crimes in the past six months and one in 10 had been hit by a criminal flash mob, says Joseph LaRocca, a senior adviser with the group. "These crimes are not new," he says. "What's new is the social network and Internet activity to coordinate these ad hoc attacks against stores." He adds: "We're still trying to figure out how best to address these issues."


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 19, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-08-18-flash-mobs-police_n.htm



I'm really not trying to make excuses or anything, but .80 x 106=84.8.  So, 85 stores in the last six months have "experienced multiple-offender crimes."  That means anything from one person distracting the retail clerk while a second grabs the merchandise, to two employees beating up a manager, to the flash mobs that inspired this thread.  And by "retailers", do we mean major chain stores like Sears or individual stores in a specific area?  

I bring this up because that stat really doesn't tell us much, and sounds like the type of media coverage that sensationalizes.


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