# Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time Series



## Makalakumu

I'm finishing up book 11 (Knife of Dreams) and not so patiently waiting for book 12 (the last book).  This series is great, perhaps the best fantasy series ever written.  And its loaded with Martial Arts stuff too!  The duel at the beginning of book 11 was excellent.

This thread is dedicated to the Wheel of Time series.  Who else is reading it?  What do you think?

upnorthkyosa

ps - I'm an uberdorky WOTist.  I've read the series five times.


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## The Kai

I gave up after book #6 (went to a pre dune phase instead)


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## mrhnau

whats the name of the first book? When I graduate, I might look into it...

MrH


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## Xequat

Yeah, it's very good, but I also gave up after around book #6.  Here's a bit of a spoiler...I hated that stupid weather bowl!  God, talk about dragging out a plot point (just a little peeve).  It took them I think three books to recover the thing and I just stopped caring.  The first few books were absolutely outstanding though, I just felt that the series overall was a little dragged out.  Does it get better later?  

I might be going to a George R.R. Martin book signing Thursday in Dayton for his new book in the Song of Ice and Fire series.  That's my favorite modern fantasy series so far.


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## Xequat

mrhnau said:
			
		

> whats the name of the first book? When I graduate, I might look into it...
> 
> MrH


 
Yeah, it's definitely worth a read to see if you like it.  A lot of people have said that it's one of the best ever.  First book's called "The Eye of the World."  Enjoy.


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## Makalakumu

The first three books are the best in the series.  In fact, I think for non serious readers, I would recommend those books above all of the others.  The end of the third book is a pretty good stopping point.  However, there is a lot of good stuff that follows.  

Its important to think of this series as one huge story.  Some of the books in the middle are slower because they are setting so much stuff up.  As one gets to the end, however, the action really picks up.  Book 11 is awesome.  So much stuff is happening so fast that I can hardly put it down.

What do you all think of the sword art that is described in the books?  It sounds interesting.  I wish it were real because I'd want to study it.


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## The Kai

Sheild maidens:uhyeah:


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## Blindside

I used to be a huge WoT fan, but the last oh, 3-4 books have just killed me.  I used to recommend it to people because of the great world building and strong female roles.  Now the female roles have become a characticture of braid pulling, skirt tugging, Aes Sedai aloofness, etc etc.  Jordan is still a great world builder, but he can't manage his points-of-view, he keeps adding in characters that don't add to the plot and just further distract from the pacing of the story.  Actually, he just needs an editor with a big red pen and the guts to tell him to trim it down.  Most of the last book (Winters Heart, I think) could have been ignored completely as it didn't move anything forward.  

Best Ever?  Wow, I don't think so, though I might have said so if the quality maintained at the level of the first three books.  Tolkien is still the standard, and for modern fantasy Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire gets my vote.

Lamont


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## oldnewbie

I've enjoyed the books to a point as well. Just finshed #11 after re- reading the first ten to get back into the story.

My feelings:

1. Jordan spends too much time on detail description, and I find myself skimming..no pun intended.

2. Have to agree with the wife that he demeans the women a bit. I mean really..., naked when they are tested, topless on the ships, naked when they are beaten,..see a pattern?

3.  I have truly loved the swords arts. Probably Jordan's strongest work in the series. I too would love to study it.

4. If the next book doesn't end the series, I don;t know what I will do.


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## Marginal

I stopped taking the books seriously once dead people started getting better. Up til that point it was dragging along a bit, but at least progress was being made. Then it's, oh by the way, he's not dead, and now she's a man baby!

Really made me lament the loss of Balefire. 

The bowl of winds took up way too much time, and it made us have to read about the windfinders. Don't really care if they hang eachother up in the rigging naked and then demote them etc thank you RJ. 

I figure he'll actually get to the last battle around book 20.


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## Makalakumu

Book 12 A Memory of Light is suppose to be the last one.  I totally understand why people are tired of the series.  Heck, the first book came out in like 1992?  I still think its the best.

Heres why...

1.  The depth of the history is in the world is immense.
2.  The cultural flavors are rich and in depth.
3.  The characters are fleshed out and real.
4.  The story is compelling.
5.  Good use of archtypes.

There are parts of the series that I like and parts that I don't like.  In my experience, in all of the really _good_ books I've read, this was the case.  There is something for everyone.


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## Blindside

As a complete aside, whats with the whole thing about Mat being Odin?

Lets see:

Has a glaive with the words Thought and Memory and ravens on it.
Odin has two ravens named Hugin and Mugin (Thought and memory) and uses a spear.

Mat wears a wide brimmed hat, Odin wears a wide-brimmed hat.

Odin hung himself from Yggrdrasill to gain knowledge, Mat was hung from a tree as the price for gaining knowledge.

Whats next?  An eight-legged horse and him losing his eye?

Lamont


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## KenpoTess

Another book out? Whoa.. I couldn't finish the last one.. to long between books methinks.. I initially enjoyed the series.. but I think it's just drawn out to long.. Myself, I prefer Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' series.


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## Lisa

Funny this thread should show up now, lol.  I am about 1/2 way through the first book.  My daughter has read the first five and is struggling through the 6th.  She says she is having a hard time and it is getting a bit boring (for her anyways).  So far, I am enjoying it.  Thanks for the insight.


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## Makalakumu

Lisa said:
			
		

> Funny this thread should show up now, lol. I am about 1/2 way through the first book. My daughter has read the first five and is struggling through the 6th. She says she is having a hard time and it is getting a bit boring (for her anyways). So far, I am enjoying it. Thanks for the insight.


 
This thread is going to be loaded with spoilers...fyi...I hope you don't mind.  :idunno: 

The Mat = Odin thing is one of the cool things I like about the series.  Jordan draws on lots of different mythologies to create this world.  I think we can expect more Odin-like behavior from Mat...in fact I think that Min Prohesized that he would lose an eye...

How'd ya'll think Tarmon Gaidon is going to go down?


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## Blindside

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> How'd ya'll think Tarmon Gaidon is going to go down?


 
Mat's going to get eaten by Fenris?  Maybe thats an analogy for Perrin becoming a Forsaken and turning on Rand and Company.  Well, it would be cool at least.  

Lamont


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## Marginal

Blindside said:
			
		

> As a complete aside, whats with the whole thing about Mat being Odin?


 
With the dragons, he has the boom to boot.


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## Makalakumu

One of the things that I appreciate about Jordan's writing is his more realistic view of warfare.  The campaigns in his books are well written and, from what I can gather, reflect many aspects of what actually happen.  I think graduating from the citidel really gives him an unique perspective.

Also, I've been thinking about the comment that Jordan is hard on women.  I really don't see this.  I think that he portrays woman in very strong and positive rolls and that his books present a break from the male dominated fantasy of the past.  Hell, think about the early Conan novels and compare THAT to Jordan.  THAT was exploitation.


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## Blindside

I don't find the nudity to be objectionable, these are examples of different cultural norms in the case of the Windfinders, and special ceremonies or punishments in the case of the Aes Sedai.  I do think it is strange that the women POV's are constantly thinking about spanking or switching someone else, usually another woman, while the males do not. 

Lamont


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## Blindside

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> I initially enjoyed the series.. but I think it's just drawn out to long.. Myself, I prefer Terry Goodkind's 'Sword of Truth' series.


 
Um, Tess, the Sword of Truth series is only one book shorter (Debt of Bones will make 10) than the Wheel of Time, both are ridiculously long.  Honestly, I barely made it through Wizards First Rule, something about his writing just didn't let me get into it.

Lamont


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## oldnewbie

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> One of the things that I appreciate about Jordan's writing is his more realistic view of warfare. The campaigns in his books are well written and, from what I can gather, reflect many aspects of what actually happen. I think graduating from the citidel really gives him an unique perspective.
> 
> Also, I've been thinking about the comment that Jordan is hard on women. I really don't see this. I think that he portrays woman in very strong and positive rolls and that his books present a break from the male dominated fantasy of the past. Hell, think about the early Conan novels and compare THAT to Jordan. THAT was exploitation.



Well, I would have to agree that the Conan books are worse. Still, I think Jordan could have done it differently. He takes every oppurtuniyt to have the women either topeless, or naked. Everyone likes a little buff, but really, is it not a little extreme?

I also agree with the warfare... I enjoy the fact that the confusion in battle is shown, how people are carried along in events out of their control, the emotional scarring.. very well done. The best though is the one on one battle with Perrin, or Mat, or Rand..

On that note... (spoiler) Jordan spends so much time building the swordwork, honing Rand to perfection, forcing the Ash'man to use the sword, that it should be pivotal,, and yet, when Rand loses his hand, all he can say is that he will need to re-learn????? How anti-climatic!!! I don't get it. Any opinions?


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## BlueDragon1981

I will read the series some day...just after i finish RA Salvatores 1 million books....how many trilogies does he have.....


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## oldnewbie

BlueDragon1981 said:
			
		

> I will read the series some day...just after i finish RA Salvatores 1 million books....how many trilogies does he have.....



Ah yes... Now Drizzit is a great MA..(wink)


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## Makalakumu

oldnewbie said:
			
		

> Well, I would have to agree that the Conan books are worse. Still, I think Jordan could have done it differently. He takes every oppurtuniyt to have the women either topeless, or naked. Everyone likes a little buff, but really, is it not a little extreme?


 
I would still say it was tasteful, but that's just my opinion.  



> On that note... (spoiler) Jordan spends so much time building the swordwork, honing Rand to perfection, forcing the Ash'man to use the sword, that it should be pivotal,, and yet, when Rand loses his hand, all he can say is that he will need to re-learn????? How anti-climatic!!! I don't get it. Any opinions?


 
How many MAists have to readjust everything they learn after an injury?  I know that I had to.  I think that Rand losing his left hand was symbolic.  Besides, how useful was the sword to him anyway when he can use the One Power?  I don't think Rands confrontation with Shai'tan will involve any sword work.


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## tshadowchaser

It seems to me that Jordan has dragewd the series out way to long.
I just plain got tired of reading them.
I know a lot of areas where covered and so much was put in frount of the readedr in the first 6 or so books that could be expanded on in the later books(and may have) but I got tired of the story after a while.  
It started looking like the writer was being paid by the word not the book


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## oldnewbie

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I would still say it was tasteful, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> How many MAists have to readjust everything they learn after an injury? I know that I had to. I think that Rand losing his left hand was symbolic. Besides, how useful was the sword to him anyway when he can use the One Power? I don't think Rands confrontation with Shai'tan will involve any sword work.



I guess I assumed that He would need it when he is shielded during the last battle. That was Rand's point several times in the books. That's why the Ash'man were required to learn the sword. It was a very important point.. I thought.

At this point in the story he really does not have the time to "re-learn"...


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## Marginal

oldnewbie said:
			
		

> On that note... (spoiler) Jordan spends so much time building the swordwork, honing Rand to perfection, forcing the Ash'man to use the sword, that it should be pivotal,, and yet, when Rand loses his hand, all he can say is that he will need to re-learn????? How anti-climatic!!! I don't get it. Any opinions?


 
I thought that Rand was more concerned with the problems that led to the loss of his hand, which are a bit more threatening to his overall plans than what hand he uses his sword with...


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## Rob Broad

I have been reading this seies for a very long time.  It is great but it takes way too long for each new book to come out.


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## Lisa

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have been reading this seies for a very long time.  It is great but it takes way too long for each new book to come out.



So me just starting the series is a good thing then, by the time I get to 11, number 12 should be out for a while and if I get bored, I will just read this thread and not have to bother


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## Rob Broad

Lisa said:
			
		

> So me just starting the series is a good thing then, by the time I get to 11, number 12 should be out for a while and if I get bored, I will just read this thread and not have to bother


 
It is a really greatseries but someone who started reading it back when it first came out it has been a bit trying at times waiting for the next book.  Robert Jordan has really created a great world.


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## oldnewbie

Marginal said:
			
		

> I thought that Rand was more concerned with the problems that led to the loss of his hand, which are a bit more threatening to his overall plans than what hand he uses his sword with...



Yes I would have to agree with that. Good point. Thanks


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## Kreth

Some points after reading this thread.
Anyone else concerned that Jordan may die before finishing the series?
A bit of space before spoilers would be appreciated. I haven't read KoD yet since my gf bought it for me for Xmas.
A few people have mentioned the Sword of Truth series. I've read the first 6 (I think) books in that series, and there are a lot of similarities between the two:
The protagonist is the first of his kind in centuries (Dragon Reborn/War Wizard)
There is a female society determined to control the protagonist (Aes Sedai/forget the term in SoT)
Maidens of the Shield/Mord Sith as a personal retinue of the protagonist.
Etc


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## Navarre

I'm not a patient reader. I get bored quickly. I generally read either short books (Narnia series) or fast-paced books (Dan Brown's "Angels & Demons").  Jordan's books seem to be neither.

I plodded through part of the first book. I liked the characters and potential plot but got...well, bored.  As I recall, they'd traveled a good ways to some town and had spent countless pages doing very little.

Am I really missing out here? Do I need to just buckle down and keep reading? Are the rewards worth it or will I always be reading 100 pages to appreciate a single event?


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## qizmoduis

Kreth said:
			
		

> Some points after reading this thread.
> Anyone else concerned that Jordan may die before finishing the series?
> A bit of space before spoilers would be appreciated. I haven't read KoD yet since my gf bought it for me for Xmas.
> A few people have mentioned the Sword of Truth series. I've read the first 6 (I think) books in that series, and there are a lot of similarities between the two:
> The protagonist is the first of his kind in centuries (Dragon Reborn/War Wizard)
> There is a female society determined to control the protagonist (Aes Sedai/forget the term in SoT)
> Maidens of the Shield/Mord Sith as a personal retinue of the protagonist.
> Etc



I noticed a few similarities between the two series.  Goodkind, however, tends to be a bit more obvious - OK a LOT more obvious - when he's got a political axe to grind.  He didn't fall into Jordan's trap of trying to weave a dozen simultaneous plot threads.  And most important, he doesn't seem to be obsessed with females spanking each other, which occurs with astonishing regularity in Jordan's books.  I'm not sure, but I think almost 25% of Jordan's latest book is dedicated to spanking.  It's getting a bit disturbing.


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## Kreth

Jordan definitely does take a lot of time to develop his subplots. I had a similar reaction to yours the first time I read Dune. The first several chapters almost put me to sleep. WoT is (IMO) a fascinating series with a very intricate weave (c'mon, gimme some props) of subplots and interesting characters and locations.


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## Kreth

I'm up to the epilogue of Knife of Dreams. After a story that seemed to inch along for the last several books, Jordan really kicked it into high gear for this one, wow!


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## Jonathan Randall

qizmoduis said:
			
		

> I noticed a few similarities between the two series. Goodkind, however, tends to be a bit more obvious - OK a LOT more obvious - when he's got a political axe to grind. He didn't fall into Jordan's trap of trying to weave a dozen simultaneous plot threads. And most important, he doesn't seem to be obsessed with females spanking each other, which occurs with astonishing regularity in Jordan's books. I'm not sure, but I think almost 25% of Jordan's latest book is dedicated to spanking. It's getting a bit disturbing.


 
How many books do I have to wait for this? Women spanking women?  How about Jessica Alba and Meg Tilly? Do they make an appearance?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

I really liked the first three or four Goodkind books as well - after that they became unreadable, IMO. I can't even GIVE away one of mine to friends who were in love with "Wizard's First Rule".

I am just starting Robert Jordan's series, partly because of this thread, so I'll have to see. If he tanks as quickly as Goodkind did, than :2xBird2:


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## Blindside

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> How many books do I have to wait for this? Women spanking women? How about Jessica Alba and Meg Tilly? Do they make an appearance?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> I really liked the first three or four Goodkind books as well - after that they became unreadable, IMO. I can't even GIVE away one of mine to friends who were in love with "Wizard's First Rule".
> 
> I am just starting Robert Jordan's series, partly because of this thread, so I'll have to see. If he tanks as quickly as Goodkind did, than :2xBird2:


 
Oh no, he tanks after book 5, which puts you exactly halfway through the currently written books.

Lamont


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## rutherford

Are we using spoiler space in this thread?  Is that even something we do on MT?

Eh, **** it.  If you don't want to know a major plot point, stop reading.  Although, I'm heartily in favor of spoiler tags which black out text.








Spoiler



Dead people started getting better?? You mean you stopped after the first book?  Anyways, I gave up on the book where Rand cleaned the male Source, and I don't remember which that was in the series.  It was 8 or more, I believe.


 It was a decent enough read, but when Main Characters for which you're waiting an update go a whole book without mention, you can expect me to get pissed and stop reading.  

So, Knife of Dreams was an attempt to bring back all the folks (and there are A LOT of us) who'd gotten pissed and bailed out on Jordon's long-winded crapfest?  Is it really worth catching up?  Sell me on it.


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## Marginal

rutherford said:
			
		

> It was a decent enough read, but when Main Characters for which you're waiting an update go a whole book without mention, you can expect me to get pissed and stop reading.


 
To a point. Ol' beardo is not really worth getting updates on. Beardo = boring. 



> So, Knife of Dreams was an attempt to bring back all the folks (and there are A LOT of us) who'd gotten pissed and bailed out on Jordon's long-winded crapfest? Is it really worth catching up? Sell me on it.


 
You get updates on all the characters, and things actually happening. No more of that "It hasn't rained" as the major plot point for three books etc.


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## Kreth

Yeah, the whole Bowl of Winds arc with Nynaeve as the major character had me about ready to slit my wrists...
Another thing I noticed is that Knife of Dreams was considerably shorter than the last few books...


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## aplonis

Fortunately for me, I started late. I have churned through this whole series to date on CDROM audiobooks. Same again for several other fantasy and scifi series. I like Jordan's books very well.

As for Jordan dying before its finished, I shant worry. My own favorite author is Jack Vance, who's been writing continuously since the forties. He being over ninety now, his last book came out just this year. One can hope for a similar career for Jordan. And if things turn otherwise, someone almost as good will finish it surely. 

There exists a certain trilogy in four volumes. It is called the "Fuzzy Sapiens" trilogy by H. Beam Piper a very early SciFi pioneer. He'd published the first two and showed his completed manuscript for the third to several persons, then blew his own brains out with an antique shotgun on account of SciFi was such a small niche market that it could not provide even very good authors with enough income even to pay for food and shelter. Yes, that long ago... But no one could find the final manuscript. Decades later, folks disputed whether it had existed at all.

Some twenty years later another writer is hired to finish the now classic series. This long awaited closure is in print for only a very short while when...viola! Someone turns up the the orignal ending in the bottom of a steamer trunk from somebody's attic in Pennsylvania.

So the Fuzzy Sapiens trilogy now enjoys two completely separate endings. And both of them are pretty good, Piper's own being the better, of course.


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## Marginal

Kreth said:
			
		

> Yeah, the whole Bowl of Winds arc with Nynaeve as the major character had me about ready to slit my wrists...
> Another thing I noticed is that Knife of Dreams was considerably shorter than the last few books...


 
Spoilers may follow...

I've got a feeling the next will be thicker. Jordan's left a lot of ground to cover if he's really going to keep the series under 13 installments. Just Matt going to fetch Moraine from the snakes is probably going to suck up a lot of time/text.


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## Jonathan Randall

Blindside said:


> Oh no, he tanks after book 5, which puts you exactly halfway through the currently written books.
> 
> Lamont


 
Well, I'm nearing the end of book five...


BTW, I've loved the series so far - especially the first three.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> Well, I'm nearing the end of book five...
> 
> 
> BTW, I've loved the series so far - especially the first three.


I love the series, but just be prepared to wade through a lot of complicated subplots as you read the next several books.


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## Sukerkin

Forgive the impetuous post here {I've not read the thread yet and I know that's a cardinal sin :blush:}.

The Wheel of Time is a fabulous concept that is starting to go horribly wrong because the author has other irons in the fire.

I first thought that it was going to have a number of books equal to the number of seals holding you-know-who at bay.  Now we're up to book eleven (plus New Spring) and no sign of an end in sight.

I'm not saying that I'm not enjoying the journey and I actually approve of the non-central-character story-lines but, as has been mentioned, if Jordan dies before finishing the arc, I'm voting for a mass search for the Book of the Dead, bringing him back to life, gving him a kicking and sending him back .

Oh, and this also applies if Moiraine is just 'paff' gone rather than waiting to return at some opportune moment.


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## Steel Tiger

Sukerkin said:


> Forgive the impetuous post here {I've not read the thread yet and I know that's a cardinal sin :blush:}.
> 
> The Wheel of Time is a fabulous concept that is starting to go horribly wrong because the author has other irons in the fire.
> 
> I first thought that it was going to have a number of books equal to the number of seals holding you-know-who at bay. Now we're up to book eleven (plus New Spring) and no sign of an end in sight.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'm not enjoying the journey and I actually approve of the non-central-character story-lines but, as has been mentioned, if Jordan dies before finishing the arc, I'm voting for a mass search for the Book of the Dead, bringing him back to life, gving him a kicking and sending him back .
> 
> Oh, and this also applies if Nyneve is just 'paff' gone rather than waiting to return at some opportune moment.


 
I have always referred to this series as the Wheel of Pain because it never seems to end.


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## Sukerkin

:lol:

I quite agree - I've just realised that I've been reading this series for seventeen years.  That's about 4/10 of my entire life !


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## Kreth

Sukerkin said:


> I first thought that it was going to have a number of books equal to the number of seals holding you-know-who at bay.  Now we're up to book eleven (plus New Spring) and no sign of an end in sight.
> 
> I'm not saying that I'm not enjoying the journey and I actually approve of the non-central-character story-lines but, as has been mentioned, if Jordan dies before finishing the arc, I'm voting for a mass search for the Book of the Dead, bringing him back to life, gving him a kicking and sending him back .


I'm with you. However, I read an interview with Jordan shortly after Knife of Dreams came out, where he said something along the lines of the next book being the last, even if it had to be 1500 pages.


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## Sukerkin

Ah!  So there is light at the end of the very interesting tunnel ... or is that just an oncoming train of Conan books? ROFL.


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## Kreth

Sukerkin said:


> Ah!  So there is light at the end of the very interesting tunnel ... or is that just an oncoming train of Conan books? ROFL.


Maybe that's how he plans to wrap things up. Matt will blow the Horn at Tarmon Gaidon (sp?) and Conan will show up.


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## Sukerkin

ROFL and ROFLMAO!

A most worhty post to bid my goodnight on - much praise sir for raising a laugh from an aging Englishmans lips :tup:.


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## wade

I stoped at Winters Heart............ I kept forgeting what went before and it took forever to keep catching up. but, I did enjoy it while I was reading it.


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## Kreth

wade said:


> I stoped at Winters Heart............ I kept forgeting what went before and it took forever to keep catching up. but, I did enjoy it while I was reading it.


Well, I don't want to throw any spoilers at you, but Knife of Dreams does a good job of finally starting to wrap up some loose subplots. It's worth the read.


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## Jonathan Randall

Kreth said:


> Well, I don't want to throw any spoilers at you, but Knife of Dreams does a good job of finally starting to wrap up some loose subplots. It's worth the read.


 
Can I safely skip 7-10?


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> Can I safely skip 7-10?


Painful as some of it will be to read (long subplots involving Nynaeve come to mind) there is a lot of important information in those books.


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## Jonathan Randall

Kreth said:


> Painful as some of it will be to read (long subplots involving Nynaeve come to mind) there is a lot of important information in those books.


 
That's what I feared...


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> That's what I feared...


There's a lot of interesting stuff in there with Matt, the Seanchan, Perrin, and the White Tower split. It makes the Nynaeve stuff bearable. She's quite possibly my least favorite character. I even like Bella better than her. :lol:
The nice thing about Jordan, and the sheer density of subplots is that, if you don't like a character, you usually only have slog through a few chapters before he's off on another tangent.


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## Jonathan Randall

Kreth said:


> There's a lot of interesting stuff in there with Matt, the Seanchan, Perrin, and the White Tower split. It makes the Nynaeve stuff bearable. She's quite possibly my least favorite character. I even like Bella better than her. :lol:


 
I can't stand Nynaeve, but I do like Mat and the Seanchan are an intriguing people. Thom Merrilin and Moraine are my favourites so far.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> I can't stand Nynaeve, but I do like Mat and the Seanchan are an intriguing people. Thom Merrilin and Moraine are my favourites so far.


Thom is a great character. If you read some of the WoT sites, there's a lot of people theorizing about how he survived his encounter with the Fade in Book 2 (or was it 3?).


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## Jonathan Randall

Kreth said:


> Thom is a great character. If you read some of the WoT sites, there's a lot of people theorizing about how he survived his encounter with the Fade in Book 2 (or was it 3?).


 
I thnk it was 1.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> I thnk it was 1.


I think you're right. It may be time for me to read through the series again. I've gotten in the habit of doing that as each new book comes out.


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## CoryKS

Gaah!  You people need spoiler alerts!  I'm on Lord of Chaos (book 6), but devouring as fast as I can.  I like the Aiel - what are they, Irish ninja fremen, or what?


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## Kreth

CoryKS said:


> I like the Aiel - what are they, Irish ninja fremen, or what?


Maybe with a bit of the Bloodguard from Donaldson's Covenant books thrown in for good measure...


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## Sukerkin

I'm astounded that there have been negative comments about Nynaeve al'Meara uzzled:.

I know it's hard to put into words sometimes why you don't like someone (especially a fictional character) but I hope those who've expressed an anti-preference will take their time to say why.

As you may have gathered, I think she's great (as does a certain Warder ... move along, no spoilers here ).  That may, however, be because she reminds me very much of a woman I nearly married (a long time ago now and of course without the magically stuff to complicate matters).


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## Empty Hands

Sukerkin said:


> I know it's hard to put into words sometimes why you don't like someone (especially a fictional character) but I hope those who've expressed an anti-preference will take their time to say why.



Because Nynaeve is an arrogant little ****.  She is completely convinced that she alone knows the right and correct answer to everything.  Everyone else is a little too dumb for their own good at best, or malicious at worst.  Her idea of being strong is being stubborn to a fault, and dominating anyone else that disagrees with her.  Unfortunately for almost everyone else, Nynaeve has the raw power to back her arrogance up.

That said, as the series has progressed Nynaeve has actually learned a little bit of humility, and she isn't quite as unbearable.  Egwene was the same way, but also learned some humility and limitations from her time with the Aiel.  Only Elayne has managed to be the same insufferable jackass without learning anything along the way.

For that matter, Jordan's idea of a "strong" woman in the entire series is a stubborn, dominating control freak, like Faile and Siuan.  Makes me wonder about the women in his life.


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## Blindside

Empty Hands said:


> Because Nynaeve is an arrogant little ****. She is completely convinced that she alone knows the right and correct answer to everything. Everyone else is a little too dumb for their own good at best, or malicious at worst. Her idea of being strong is being stubborn to a fault, and dominating anyone else that disagrees with her. Unfortunately for almost everyone else, Nynaeve has the raw power to back her arrogance up.
> 
> That said, as the series has progressed Nynaeve has actually learned a little bit of humility, and she isn't quite as unbearable. Egwene was the same way, but also learned some humility and limitations from her time with the Aiel. Only Elayne has managed to be the same insufferable jackass without learning anything along the way.
> 
> For that matter, Jordan's idea of a "strong" woman in the entire series is a stubborn, dominating control freak, like Faile and Siuan. Makes me wonder about the women in his life.


 
DANG!  What he said!!!!


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## ArmorOfGod

Empty Hands said:


> Because Nynaeve is an arrogant little ****. She is completely convinced that she alone knows the right and correct answer to everything. Everyone else is a little too dumb for their own good at best, or malicious at worst. Her idea of being strong is being stubborn to a fault, and dominating anyone else that disagrees with her. Unfortunately for almost everyone else, Nynaeve has the raw power to back her arrogance up.
> 
> That said, as the series has progressed Nynaeve has actually learned a little bit of humility, and she isn't quite as unbearable. Egwene was the same way, but also learned some humility and limitations from her time with the Aiel. Only Elayne has managed to be the same insufferable jackass without learning anything along the way.
> 
> For that matter, Jordan's idea of a "strong" woman in the entire series is a stubborn, dominating control freak, like Faile and Siuan. Makes me wonder about the women in his life.


 
Many people feel like you do on that, but he has some normal women in there as well.  I have been in love with Min every since I read about her.  Also Elayne is very uppity, but not a control freak.
Min.....sigh.

AoG


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## Jonathan Randall

ArmorOfGod said:


> Many people feel like you do on that, but he has some normal women in there as well. I have been in love with Min every since I read about her. Also Elayne is very uppity, but not a control freak.
> Min.....sigh.
> 
> AoG


 
I like Min as well!


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## CoryKS

Empty Hands said:


> Because Nynaeve is an arrogant little ****. She is completely convinced that she alone knows the right and correct answer to everything. Everyone else is a little too dumb for their own good at best, or malicious at worst. Her idea of being strong is being stubborn to a fault, and dominating anyone else that disagrees with her. Unfortunately for almost everyone else, Nynaeve has the raw power to back her arrogance up.
> 
> That said, as the series has progressed Nynaeve has actually learned a little bit of humility, and she isn't quite as unbearable. Egwene was the same way, but also learned some humility and limitations from her time with the Aiel. Only Elayne has managed to be the same insufferable jackass without learning anything along the way.
> 
> For that matter, Jordan's idea of a "strong" woman in the entire series is a stubborn, dominating control freak, like Faile and Siuan. Makes me wonder about the women in his life.


 
All too true.  But what I like is that right after Nynaeve expresses a thought about something in her "it's too obvious to mention" manner, Jordan will write about something going on elsewhere that totally contradicts what she just said.  She would be insufferable if she was like that and was right all the time; by showing her to be fallible makes her somewhat comical and a little more real.  That said, I would never have anything to do with a woman like her IRL.


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## Empty Hands

ArmorOfGod said:


> Many people feel like you do on that, but he has some normal women in there as well.  I have been in love with Min every since I read about her.  Also Elayne is very uppity, but not a control freak.
> Min.....sigh.



I agree that some are worse than others.  Even the "normal" women however still have these troubling tendencies that we tend not to tolerate in real life, from men or women.  Moiraine was probably the best of them, and even she would "lie" or manipulate with abandon to get what she wanted.  Elayne is also a control freak - look at her attempts to exert her authority over all, even before *SPOILER*she becomes queen of Andor*SPOILER*.  Min probably is the best of them, but she still has the attitude that she knows what is best for Rand, and will have him do it no matter his feelings.  

The women that don't exert these controlling impulses in the book, OTOH, are usually portrayed as weak.


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## Empty Hands

CoryKS said:


> But what I like is that right after Nynaeve expresses a thought about something in her "it's too obvious to mention" manner, Jordan will write about something going on elsewhere that totally contradicts what she just said.



I like it when that happens. 



CoryKS said:


> That said, I would never have anything to do with a woman like her IRL.



No kidding!  Man or woman, that is an unattractive person.  That is what makes me wonder about Jordan though, in that most of the major female protagonists are like this.  ISTM that his view on women must be pretty screwed up.


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## CoryKS

Empty Hands said:


> I agree that some are worse than others. Even the "normal" women however still have these troubling tendencies that we tend not to tolerate in real life, from men or women. Moiraine was probably the best of them, and even she would "lie" or manipulate with abandon to get what she wanted. Elayne is also a control freak - look at her attempts to exert her authority over all, even before *SPOILER*she becomes queen of Andor*SPOILER*. Min probably is the best of them, but she still has the attitude that she knows what is best for Rand, and will have him do it no matter his feelings.
> 
> The women that don't exert these controlling impulses in the book, OTOH, are usually portrayed as weak.


 
There's another possibility I've considered, though I don't know if it's what Jordan intended.  The men have not been able to use the One Power since it was tainted by the Dark One.  Since that time, women have pretty much been in control as they are the only ones who can channel.  And what happens?  They are arrogant.  They are control freaks.  They make kings and queens dance on their threads.

We hear people opine that things would be so much different if women were in charge.  Jordan, whether intentionally or not, seems to suggest that it's not true.


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## Sukerkin

Well it just goes to show that one of the great strengths of a written work of fiction is that people can view the words with their own 'lenses'.  I trully approve of the fact that, reading the posts above, I wonder if I've read the same books as some others .

I wont go into the why's and wherefore's now (too tired to be eloquent) but suffice it so say that I don't recognise the Nynaeve as others have her depicted above.  'That' woman sounds more like Moiraine to me.

Regardless, that requirement for reader interpretation is why a book will always be superior to a film :tup:.


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## Shizen Shigoku

I just recently started on book one. I tried my best to not see all the spoilers in this thread, and just get the reviews.

12 books in the series . . . damn. This is going to take me a while.

I'm on chapter ten now or so, and it's starting to get interesting.

I first picked it up because the synopsis on the back read like a list of heavy metal album titles!


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## Jonathan Randall

Well, I _finally _finished Book Five and, of the ones I've read so far, it definitely has the best ending, IMO. Great book!


** Spoiler Alert **

Even though I knew it would occur, not every post on every forum has spoiler alert warnings, it really was a shock to see Moraine taken out.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> Even though I knew it would occur, not every post on every forum has spoiler alert warnings, it really was a shock to see Moraine taken out.


Moiraine saw the future at Rhuidean. There's a reason she gave that note to Thom.


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## Jonathan Randall

Kreth said:


> Moiraine saw the future at Rhuidean. There's a reason she gave that note to Thom.


 
I know. 

IMO, the not to Thom is probably about his nephew. Moraine promised him the full story if he escorted Elayne and Nynaeve out of Tear.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> I know.
> 
> IMO, the not to Thom is probably about his nephew. Moraine promised him the full story if he escorted Elayne and Nynaeve out of Tear.


Well, the contents of the note aren't revealed until Book 11, although you get a hint of sorts towards Moiraine's fate a book or three before that.


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## Jonathan Randall

[qote=Kreth;751944]Well, the contents of the note aren't revealed until Book 11, although you get a hint of sorts towards Moiraine's fate a book or three before that. [/quote]

I just went out and bought book six today, but I'm not excited about 7-10. _The Crossroads of Twilight _is supposed to be particularly bad, I've heard.


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## Kreth

Jonathan Randall said:


> I just went out and bought book six today, but I'm not excited about 7-10. _The Crossroads of Twilight _is supposed to be particularly bad, I've heard.


Yeah, there's a lot of exposition and subplots going on through those books. Knife of Dreams was pretty popular with fans because Jordan finally wrapped some stuff up. It helped me to review each time I started a new book. There's plenty of fan sites with plot summaries to help you recall the important points from the mind-numbing amount of details in each book.


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