# Jkd instructor



## super saiyan 4 (Jan 12, 2022)

I'm teaching jkd if anyone is intrest call


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## Holmejr (Jan 12, 2022)

What’s your pedigree?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 12, 2022)

There is very little information encouraging someone to reach out to you. Some basic questions that might help in the future:
1. What's your experience level?
2. Where do you live?
3. Are you doing online vs. remote?
3a. If online, why are you better than the other online options out there for jkd?
4. Are you charging/do you have set classes or is it private instruction?
4a. When are those classes?


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## Blindside (Jan 12, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> I'm teaching jkd if anyone is intrest call


Are you good a jkd?  Do you have any evidence that you are a decent instructor?  What continent do you teach on?


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## angelariz (Jan 14, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> I'm teaching jkd if anyone is intrest call


Who is your lineage through?


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

You should make a website with credentials


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 15, 2022)

As much as I respect JKD, this looks like something that would be written on a bathroom stall.

And I would totally write down that number.  Good JKD teachers are very hard to find.


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There is very little information encouraging someone to reach out to you. Some basic questions that might help in the future:
> 1. What's your experience level?
> 2. Where do you live?
> 3. Are you doing online vs. remote?
> ...


Almost 12 years of jkd I live in Sacramento I charge 12 dollars every 30min no set classes I just started business wide and I teach at gym and park not opening dojo until vivid get better I would not know how to do online classes since I'm low skill with computers.


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As much as I respect JKD, this looks like something that would be written on a bathroom stall.
> 
> And I would totally write down that number.  Good JKD teachers are very hard to find.


Thx I never disscuss my skill level but I'm in Sacramento


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 21, 2022)

I


Mider said:


> You should make a website with credentials


 Would have to hire someone no computer skills


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> Thx I never disscuss my skill level but I'm in Sacramento


You should.

My skill level is basic Jun Fan style, taught by a JKD instructor who was also a skilled Muay Thai boxer and Jiujitsu...something belt.

He taught me how to catch a fist with my hand.  Bear in mind I'd already learned how to catch a fist many other ways before that, including my face.

What's your favorite JKD move?  Please don't post any Bruce Lee quotes, I might hurl chunks.


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## angelariz (Jan 22, 2022)

I've been teaching off and on since 93. My lineage goes from Sijo BL- Guro Inosanto- Sigung Vunak- Me
I am a full instructor under 3 organizations.

Fav. JkD move(s) Pac Dar, Lau Sing Choy or big jee- Jeet Tek


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 22, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> Thx I never disscuss my skill level but I'm in Sacramento


Why not? There's no harm with being honest about your skill level.  Sharing that information will get you more students unless your skill level isn't high enough to be teaching someone.

One's skill level should never be a mystery to the students or to those who may be interested in learning.


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## Blindside (Jan 23, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> Almost 12 years of jkd I live in Sacramento I charge 12 dollars every 30min no set classes I just started business wide and I teach at gym and park not opening dojo until vivid get better I would not know how to do online classes since I'm low skill with computers.



There are four ways of making a decision about whether or not I will study with an instructor, the first and weakest is "Sensei Bob said Super Saiyan 4 is badass so I should study with him."  The second is "SS4 studied with Grandmaster Steve and Grandmaster Steve is a badass."  The third is watching SS4 in person or in video and thinking "that dude is a badass and I want to be like him."  The fourth is watching your students and thinking "SS4's students are badass and I want to be like them."  Your advertising so far has given out so little information than none of these four options work.  Work on your advertising.


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You should.
> 
> My skill level is basic Jun Fan style, taught by a JKD instructor who was also a skilled Muay Thai boxer and Jiujitsu...something belt.
> 
> ...


Leading straight or side kick


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why not? There's no harm with being honest about your skill level.  Sharing that information will get you more students unless your skill level isn't high enough to be teaching someone.
> 
> One's skill level should never be a mystery to the students or to those who may be interested in learning.


Well it's obvious where I am at and I like to maintain the mindset of a beginer


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 24, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> Well it's obvious where I am at and I like to maintain the mindset of a beginer


My thing is take a class and find out the skills are there


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## super saiyan 4 (Jan 24, 2022)

Blindside said:


> There are four ways of making a decision about whether or not I will study with an instructor, the first and weakest is "Sensei Bob said Super Saiyan 4 is badass so I should study with him."  The second is "SS4 studied with Grandmaster Steve and Grandmaster Steve is a badass."  The third is watching SS4 in person or in video and thinking "that dude is a badass and I want to be like him."  The fourth is watching your students and thinking "SS4's students are badass and I want to be like them."  Your advertising so far has given out so little information than none of these four options work.  Work on your advertising.


I will this site edits ads I can't post ads here but I am actively working on my advertising skills feel free to help me out


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## Blindside (Jan 24, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> I will this site edits ads I can't post ads here but I am actively working on my advertising skills feel free to help me out



There is a section called "Members in Motion," film yourself doing cool JKD things and post there.  Do you have a youtube channel?


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why not? There's no harm with being honest about your skill level.


Oh yes there is.  Practically all of Kung Fu cinema is all about your style getting too famous, and then wham, come the ninjas.

The best and wisest masters of style in any art, are usually obscure.  Fame is a poison for the mind, and it brings a thousand enemies.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> Well it's obvious where I am at and I like to maintain the mindset of a beginer


Nothing is obvious when it comes to Martial Arts.  I make no assumption about people's skill level.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The best and wisest masters of style in any art, are usually obscure. Fame is a poison for the mind, and it brings a thousand enemies.


This is what I don't like about kung practitioners in general.  Not all of us.  Just some of us.  Kung people for some reason think they are the exception to stuff. That some how the world turns differently for us.  Lots of speak about being humble, but listen to some kung fu people talk and you'll hear a lot of arrogance when they talk about why their system doesn't bend to the same laws of nature.

All of these are personal issue.   If fame poison your mind then that's something that person needs to work on.  I've seen obscure stuff that was total crap.  They want it to be obscure so that people with experience won't call out their scams. 

In today's age, A Martial Arts teacher who wants to be obscure is like a boyfriend telling his girlfriend that he wants to keep the relationship a secret so that other people won't poison the relationship.

As for a thousand enemies, that's nonsense too.  TKD tricking is famous, no one is coming for them.  Extreme martial art is famous, but no one is coming for them. Muay Thai is famous. Boxing is famous. Wrestling is famous. Fencing is Famous.  No one is coming for them.   

Now if you talk a bunch of crap, brag, and become arrogant, then yes you'll get your enemies.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Oh yes there is.  Practically all of Kung Fu cinema is all about your style getting too famous, and then wham, come the ninjas.
> 
> The best and wisest masters of style in any art, are usually obscure.  Fame is a poison for the mind, and it brings a thousand enemies.


I find this ironic being that Jow Ga's saying is "Spread Jow Ga"  You can't spread anything if you are trying to be obscure.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I find this ironic being that Jow Ga's saying is "Spread Jow Ga"  You can't spread anything if you are trying to be obscure.


The best don't need to spread anything.

It's the need to teach that usually screws things up over time.  The pride involved.

Somewhere out there are Jow Ga tigers who have never felt the need to post about it.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The best don't need to spread anything.


Even if someone was the best. I would still want to know their skill set.  Not every good fighter makes a good teacher.  A good fighter can have the knowledge and skill set for fighting, but does a horrible job in communicating with students.  Which is probably a lot of good fighters are known as good fighters and not awesome coaches.



Oily Dragon said:


> Somewhere out there are Jow Ga tigers who have never felt the need to post about it.


I'm sure there are.  But I'm equally sure that there are a lot more out there with Instructor BIO's on their website that speaks about their skill set and the qualities that they think are important.. 

I'm also sure that a lot more would tell a person their skill set if someone asked them to. Imagine this.

A potential students is thinking about joining your school.  That person asks you. "What is your experience?  What are your skill sets?"  And You answer.  "I don't discuss my skill sets."  If it's me. I would turn around and walk out of your school.  Then I'll let my friend know not deal with you.   If you can't be honest and open about that, then what else are you going to keep "secret"


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Even if someone was the best. I would still want to know their skill set.  Not every good fighter makes a good teacher.  A good fighter can have the knowledge and skill set for fighting, but does a horrible job in communicating with students.  Which is probably a lot of good fighters are known as good fighters and not awesome coaches.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are.  But I'm equally sure that there are a lot more out there with Instructor BIO's on their website that speaks about their skill set and the qualities that they think are important..
> ...


Asking someone for their "skill set" is a problem though.  How can you trust anybody, without really getting to know them.

Therein lies the paradox behind all martial arts schools.   It's like the Matrix, people want something, they may not know what it is, but their senses typically blind them from the truth.  Still, they'll walk right into the lion's mouth with cash in hand, ready to be told what it is.

The truth about Jeet Kune Do is fraught with danger.  On one side it's a master class in "anything goes", on the other, it's a sad tale of philosophical woe, straight out of San Francisco.

I'll always be a terrible teacher, which is why I like to maintain close to zero students, at all times.  Compared to the great grandmasters of JKD, I'm a happy hermit.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Asking someone for their "skill set" is a problem though.  How can you trust anybody, without really getting to know them.


You can find that from that person's personal record. This is why a student needs to do his homework. A student wants to make sure that a teacher has some valuable skill to teach him.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Asking someone for their "skill set" is a problem though. How can you trust anybody, without really getting to know them.


It's not what you say but how you say.

1. Are they bragging about their skills when they tell you.
2. Do they sound humble about their skills.

A potential student asked me about my skill sets. This is what I told them.
1. I'm not a Sifu.
2. I've been training for X amount of years
3. I focus my training on Function and then I gave them a perspective of how I see kung Fu. (not how I think everyone else should train it.)
4. I have not used my Jow Ga in competition, but I have used it in sparring.
5. I coach /teach the Jow Ga sparring class. I used to teach self-defense classes when I lived in ....
6. The Sifu of the school is.....
7. The main instructor of the school is......
8. This is the role that I play in the school and helping students, self-defense, function, fitness.

That's how I talk about my skill sets.  The 2 general questions that I get 99% of the time are.
1. How long have I've been doing Jow Ga
2. Can I actually use Jow Ga.

#2 is often answered by videos that I post on the school website.  I don't post videos to show that I know how to do Jow Ga.  I post videos to show that Jow Ga is real kung fu that can actually be used against a resisting person, who is trying to attack me. 

Most people who see me use Jow Ga kung Fu don't question my skill set.  Even though it's not the next level Kung Fu master stuff.  It's more than what they can do and it looks like what Jow Ga trains.  Most people aren't looking to be MMA fighters.  They just want to be able to use what they train.

Edit: If people haven't seen the videos then I show them a couple simple and easy to understand techniques and concepts.  A lot of times I tell them the value of the horse stance and how people don't think that you can actually use the horse stance.  I show them a perspective that they have not thought of or heard of .


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Therein lies the paradox behind all martial arts schools. It's like the Matrix, people want something, they may not know what it is,


This is where the instructor / teacher / coach should help them out by asking questions.
1. Are you looking to get into shape?
2. Are you looking to be more active?
3. Are you interested in sparring?
4. Are you interested in learn how to use the techniques or do you want to just good at the forms?
5. What do you want your child to get out if.

The instructor should reassure the person that there's no right or wrong answer, because Kung Fu is whatever you want to get out of it.  Just like some people take Boxing Fitness classes, but don't want to fight.  People take kung fu in the same way.

I always talk to people about what I don.  It's no secret.  Just like I didn't try to keep it a secret that I got kicked out of a kung fu school because "I focused too much on using kung fu to fight"   Fast forward 5+ years MMA vs Kung Fu masters is a thing.  You know what I hear now?  I hear Sifu's saying that "It's not good enough for us to collect forms. We also must know how to use it." 

I have nothing to hide and I haven't hid anything about my training.  When I was injured. I stated that.  When I was out of shape. I stated that too.  When I was wrong and offended someone by accident I apologized in public.  The only thing that type of stuff will is build up my character and will show the type of person I am.  That way if you want to learn from me, you don't have to guess what you are going to get.

I'm not sure why people are so afraid of being honest and afraid of "Unlikes."


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The truth about Jeet Kune Do is fraught with danger. On one side it's a master class in "anything goes",


"Anything goes" is how I've always known kung fu.  I have never thought of it as something honorable.  It was always about surviving the fight.  I know Jow Ga kung fu.  If I get into a fight and I see a brick, then I'm going to utilize the brick.  It's my choice to either use it or throw it away.  But I only get those options if I have the brick.  If my opponent gets the brick, then I have no say.

For a system that has groin kicks, joint breaks, eye pokes, and tricks to hurt your opponent, there are sure a of people who this it's "Honorable"  If I have dirt in my hand, then you better believe I'll make use of it.  People fall in love with the fantasy of Kung Fu.  Not the reality of it.   No one develops techniques to strike the groin or poke out the eyes because it's "Honorable."



Oily Dragon said:


> I'll always be a terrible teacher, which is why I like to maintain close to zero students, at all times. Compared to the great grandmasters of JKD, I'm a happy hermit.


That's a good thing you can be honest about that.  Because if someone ask you to teach them.  Then you can be honest and say that you are a horrible teacher. From there the student can determine if they still want to learn from you or if they want to find another teacher.  But they will have respect for your honesty.


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 1, 2022)

Blindside said:


> There is a section called "Members in Motion," film yourself doing cool JKD things and post there.  Do you have a youtube channel?


No


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is where the instructor / teacher / coach should help them out by asking questions.
> 1. Are you looking to get into shape?
> 2. Are you looking to be more active?
> 3. Are you interested in sparring?
> ...


When I was 16 I was released out of a mmagym no big deal sparring got a little rough


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Even if someone was the best. I would still want to know their skill set.  Not every good fighter makes a good teacher.  A good fighter can have the knowledge and skill set for fighting, but does a horrible job in communicating with students.  Which is probably a lot of good fighters are known as good fighters and not awesome coaches.
> 
> 
> I'm sure there are.  But I'm equally sure that there are a lot more out there with Instructor BIO's on their website that speaks about their skill set and the qualities that they think are important..
> ...


I was getting at if you saw the technique you would know I can talk but it means nothing until you see it good feedback like what you say and agree


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## Blindside (Feb 1, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> No


How are you advertising for students besides posting very limited information on relatively obscure martial arts message boards?


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> "Anything goes" is how I've always known kung fu.  I have never thought of it as something honorable.  It was always about surviving the fight.  I know Jow Ga kung fu.  If I get into a fight and I see a brick, then I'm going to utilize the brick.  It's my choice to either use it or throw it away.  But I only get those options if I have the brick.  If my opponent gets the brick, then I have no say.
> 
> For a system that has groin kicks, joint breaks, eye pokes, and tricks to hurt your opponent, there are sure a of people who this it's "Honorable"  If I have dirt in my hand, then you better believe I'll make use of it.  People fall in love with the fantasy of Kung Fu.  Not the reality of it.   No one develops techniques to strike the groin or poke out the eyes because it's "Honorable."
> 
> ...


My problem is that I've been asked by quite a few people to teach them, and failed not because I didn't know what I was doing, but because they were only willing to put so much effort in.  In other words, my bar is too high.

See, in my view of the world, JKD is low hanging fruit.  It's the popularization of the whole idea of kung fu...without a lot of the work required.  Wing Chun is by comparison a rich artform with a 200+ year heritage, JKD is a pop culture martial art.  If I upset anyone with that statement, fine.

I've known kung fu students who will wake up at the crack of dawn to pick up a staff and toy with it until the school bus arrives.  I've known students who have scrubbed their old Sifus name off their uniform.

The former is a hard truffle to sniff out.   The latter is a big problem in all the arts, especially the ones surrounding Bruce Lee.  How can you tell who to trust?  I think JKD schools are some of the hardest to fan out.  There are sooooo many bad ones, so few good ones, and even fewer ones you might want to join only to learn how to fight.


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## dvcochran (Feb 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> My problem is that I've been asked by quite a few people to teach them, and failed not because I didn't know what I was doing, but because they were only willing to put so much effort in. In other words, my bar is too high.


I hope it would be better said if you were to say "my bar is too high for them".


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 2, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> I hope it would be better said if you were to say "my bar is too high for them".


I can't ever seem to dumb things down enough using words.  Ever get that feeling?


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 2, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> I hope it would be better said if you were to say "my bar is too high for them".


Maybe the bar is raised too soon.  Like if you see some of my exercises you would think that I don't know what I'm doing.  I do that so people, including myself can grow into a higher standard.  It's like math, start small then grow big.


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## super saiyan 4 (Feb 3, 2022)

Blindside said:


> How are you advertising for students besides posting very limited information on relatively obscure martial arts message boards?


If you own a business of any kind let me know what you do for advertising


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 3, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> If you own a business of any kind let me know what you do for advertising


Here's one idea, let's chat about Jeet Kune Do!

What's your take on the style?


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## Blindside (Feb 3, 2022)

super saiyan 4 said:


> If you own a business of any kind let me know what you do for advertising



So I have owned and run a small martial arts club for 12 years now, it isn't designed to make a living off of, so saying it is a "business is a stretch."  That said I have active social media (Facebook, Instagram, youtube) and a decent website.  I have done my SEO enough that club pops up when you search for martial arts in my area.  I am listed on Google and Dojo.com for  I teach a pretty niche martial art and I only teach adults.  And I am networked into the local martial arts scene that if someone is looking for what I offer I will get a person sent my way, just like I will funnel references to those other instructors.  The point is that you need to present what you do and what you offer to the public if you want them to take the trouble to contact you.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 3, 2022)

Blindside said:


> So I have owned and run a small martial arts club for 12 years now, it isn't designed to make a living off of, so saying it is a "business is a stretch."  That said I have active social media (Facebook, Instagram, youtube) and a decent website.  I have done my SEO enough that club pops up when you search for martial arts in my area.  I am listed on Google and Dojo.com for  I teach a pretty niche martial art and I only teach adults.  And I am networked into the local martial arts scene that if someone is looking for what I offer I will get a person sent my way, just like I will funnel references to those other instructors.  The point is that you need to present what you do and what you offer to the public if you want them to take the trouble to contact you.


All of this.  There's no easy way. No single thing to do.  Either learn a little about online marketing or have someone who knows do it for him. A website is a must.  Most people who are looking for something will do a Google search first.  Definitely can't be afraid to talk about one's skill level


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 19, 2022)

Do what Bruce Lee used to do to get students:

1)  go to Kung-Fu schools to challenge their masters to fights
2)  post flyers challenging other martial artists to NHB fights


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Do what Bruce Lee used to do to get students:
> 
> 1)  go to Kung-Fu schools to challenge their masters to fights
> 2)  post flyers challenging other martial artists to NHB fights


The _Dragon _movie put this out there.  No, don't.  Don't get me wrong, I love that movie on multiple levels, but the whole back breaking thing in front of the forum of Chinese elders to create JKD while in traction was goofy, even with the epic Hung Kuen representation.

Challenging other schools to fight should never be the answer.  Even in the 1960/70s, but especially today.

In my head, Jet Li has played this trope many times.  Huo Yuanjia in _Fearless _most of all.  "Kung fu challenge, don't do it".

Huo Yuanjia.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 19, 2022)

Blindside said:


> There are four ways of making a decision about whether or not I will study with an instructor, the first and weakest is "Sensei Bob said Super Saiyan 4 is badass so I should study with him."  The second is "SS4 studied with Grandmaster Steve and Grandmaster Steve is a badass."  The third is watching SS4 in person or in video and thinking "that dude is a badass and I want to be like him."  The fourth is watching your students and thinking "SS4's students are badass and I want to be like them."  Your advertising so far has given out so little information than none of these four options work.  Work on your advertising.


I think the fourth one is the most informative.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Oh yes there is.  Practically all of Kung Fu cinema is all about your style getting too famous, and then wham, come the ninjas.
> 
> The best and wisest masters of style in any art, are usually obscure.  Fame is a poison for the mind, and it brings a thousand enemies.


LMAO! “ wham, come the ninjas”


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 19, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Do what Bruce Lee used to do to get students:
> 
> 1)  go to Kung-Fu schools to challenge their masters to fights
> 2)  post flyers challenging other martial artists to NHB fights


Lol! I love it!


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The _Dragon _movie put this out there.  No, don't.  Don't get me wrong, I love that movie on multiple levels, but the whole back breaking thing in front of the forum of Chinese elders to create JKD while in traction was goofy, even with the epic Hung Kuen representation.
> 
> Challenging other schools to fight should never be the answer.  Even in the 1960/70s, but especially today.
> 
> ...



The Dragon movie made Bruce Lee out to be the hero, but he was probably more of the bully; out to make a name for himself by challenging those Kung-Fu people (who were also selling their hocus pocus). 

Asians were 2nd class citizens back then. Any kind of business with White people, would've been a step up.  Those Kung Fu Masters weren't against teaching Whites.  The guy (Wong Jack Man) that these Kung-Fu Masters supposedly brought in to beat up Bruce Lee, even said he had White students back then.  And who was Wong Jack Man at that time? Just a nobody, Kung-Fu guy who claimed that he "didn't use my devastating kicks"...."as it would've been too deadly", vs. Bruce Lee during that fight (para)....so basically, they were both BS'ers; the typical BS'ers that Xu Xiaodong exposes currently in China.

However, Wong Jack Man does have a legit Kung-Fu lineage later on in his life, producing real Sanda fighters.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 21, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> The Dragon movie made Bruce Lee out to be the hero, but he was probably more of the bully; out to make a name for himself by challenging those Kung-Fu people (who were also selling their hocus pocus).
> 
> Asians were 2nd class citizens back then. Any kind of business with White people, would've been a step up.  Those Kung Fu Masters weren't against teaching Whites.  The guy (Wong Jack Man) that these Kung-Fu Masters supposedly brought in to beat up Bruce Lee, even said he had White students back then.  And who was Wong Jack Man at that time? Just a nobody, Kung-Fu guy who claimed that he "didn't use my devastating kicks"...."as it would've been too deadly", vs. Bruce Lee during that fight (para)....so basically, they were both BS'ers; the typical BS'ers that Xu Xiaodong exposes currently in China.
> 
> However, Wong Jack Man does have a legit Kung-Fu lineage later on in his life, producing real Sanda fighters.


I should have been clear I was referring to "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" and not that terrible horrible "Birth of the Dragon" from a few years back.  I'm getting old and 1993 was almost 30 years ago.

In the first, he fights a real life Hung Kuen guy (John Cheung, who is awesome) that is supposed to be some form of Wong Jack Man.  In the other terrible movie, it's literally Wong, and it made the whole deal seem Uber silly.

The reality is that there were always people back then training for real, and still are, but the loudmouths tend of overshadow them.  Then what happens is everyone on the outside gets a bad impression.  You can definitely label Bruce as a bit of a snobbish scholar, and definitely no gentleman.  Like a lot of smart, funny, strong guys.  Add a little fame..

Xiadong and Bruce have a lot in common, same kind of fire.  And Xu already has been cast as one of the biggest "bullies" in China, for basically attempting to be another white knight of kung fu.  Poor man. No good deed...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 21, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> The Dragon movie made Bruce Lee out to be the hero, but he was probably more of the bully; out to make a name for himself by challenging those Kung-Fu people (who were also selling their hocus pocus).
> 
> Asians were 2nd class citizens back then. Any kind of business with White people, would've been a step up.  Those Kung Fu Masters weren't against teaching Whites.  The guy (Wong Jack Man) that these Kung-Fu Masters supposedly brought in to beat up Bruce Lee, even said he had White students back then.  And who was Wong Jack Man at that time? Just a nobody, Kung-Fu guy who claimed that he "didn't use my devastating kicks"...."as it would've been too deadly", vs. Bruce Lee during that fight (para)....so basically, they were both BS'ers; the typical BS'ers that Xu Xiaodong exposes currently in China.
> 
> However, Wong Jack Man does have a legit Kung-Fu lineage later on in his life, producing real Sanda fighters.


Hocus Pocus? Is that your estimation of Chinese martial arts?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hocus Pocus? Is that your estimation of Chinese martial arts?


Magic.  The darkest magic. 

My soul swims in it, scattered across time, trapped in the world of formlessness.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Magic.  The darkest magic.
> 
> My soul swims in it, scattered across time, trapped in the world of formlessness.


Ok. How would I know? I’m all trapped in this dimension with nothing but coarse reality to lean on.  I sure would like to learn the haduken fireball though.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok. How would I know? I’m all trapped in this dimension with nothing but coarse reality to lean on.  I sure would like to learn the haduken fireball though.


The Wu Dip Jeurng?

It's pretty easy to learn, but it's a very close range attack.  When I say close range, I mean intimate range.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Wu Dip Jeurng?
> 
> It's pretty easy to learn, but it's a very close range attack.  When I say close range, I mean intimate range.


No hocus pocus there. He looks pretty good at the form. That is not a haduken fireball though.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No hocus pocus there. He looks pretty good at the form. That is not a haduken fireball though.


It's the closest thing in this world.  Wu Dip.   Remember to sweep the face!


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hocus Pocus? Is that your estimation of Chinese martial arts?


 
you need to read what I said, again.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I should have been clear I was referring to "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" and not that terrible horrible "Birth of the Dragon" from a few years back.  I'm getting old and 1993 was almost 30 years ago.
> 
> In the first, he fights a real life Hung Kuen guy (John Cheung, who is awesome) that is supposed to be some form of Wong Jack Man.  In the other terrible movie, it's literally Wong, and it made the whole deal seem Uber silly.
> 
> ...



UFC 1 dispelled just about all of the above; esp. when it paid out $50,000 for 1 night of fight & in 1993 money.  That's a lot more than what most World Kickboxing title fight paid.  Glory KB doesn't even pay that much, today.  I doubt that Champions like Don Wilson, Benny the Jet, etc. ever made that much in 1 night.  

And most of those dudes that Xu Xiadong fought, came to him. It was prob. a big payday for them to get clobbered by Xu. Look at the stage, crowd, production, etc.  Someone was bank rolling those freak shows. No way were some of those Kung-Fu grandpas that delusional.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

F


jayoliver00 said:


> UFC 1 dispelled just about all of the above; esp. when it paid out $50,000 for 1 night of fight & in 1993 money.  That's a lot more than what most World Kickboxing title fight paid.  Glory KB doesn't even pay that much, today.  I doubt that Champions like Don Wilson, Benny the Jet, etc. ever made that much in 1 night.
> 
> And most of those dudes that Xu Xiadong fought, came to him. It was prob. a big payday for them to get clobbered by Xu. Look at the stage, crowd, production, etc.  Someone was bank rolling those freak shows. No way were some of those Kung-Fu grandpas that delusional.


Fair enough, but it seems like they had to be a little bit nuts if they thought they had a chance, knowing they were not capable in a fight. 50 k isn’t much when it comes to paying doctor bills.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> F
> 
> Fair enough, but it seems like they had to be a little bit nuts if they thought they had a chance, knowing they were not capable in a fight. 50 k isn’t much when it comes to paying doctor bills.



Are you talking about the UFC or vs. Xu?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> you need to read what I said, again.


Well you said Bruce was a bully who made his name challenging all those Kung fu people who were also selling their hocus pocus. I agree with you, that Bruce was a hot head, loud mouthed peacock. I agree with you that there are plenty of phony CMA people. I just asked what your estimation of CMA was.  ( oh I hate this thrice damned spell check!)


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Are you talking about the UFC or vs. Xu?


The Kung fu grandpas that came to meet Xu’s challenge.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No hocus pocus there. He looks pretty good at the form. That is not a haduken fireball though.


I can’t tell if he is good at the form or not, because it cut off his feet and, in most of the form, his entire lower body.  I couldn’t adequately tell if he has connection with his stance and root, or not.  The way he moves makes me suspect that he may be disconnected.  Which would mean that he isn’t very good at all.  But I can’t tell for certain, from that video.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I can’t tell if he is good at the form or not, because it cut off his feet and, in most of the form, his entire lower body.  I couldn’t adequately tell if he has connection with his stance and root, or not.  The way he moves makes me suspect that he may be disconnected.  Which would mean that he isn’t very good at all.  But I can’t tell for certain, from that video.


I got dancer vibes but the choreography looked ok and he wasn’t gasping.   In any case it was better than the previous vid.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The Kung fu grandpas that came to meet Xu’s challenge.


 
Ok, you read it wrong; the $50k was for UFC-1.

The Kung-Fu grandpas getting paid by a 3rd party was just speculation on my part. And the beating wasn't even that bad, as I recalled. Xu generally took it easy on them; even at US$10k equivalent, that's well worth it for someone living a hard life in China.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I got dancer vibes but the choreography looked ok and he wasn’t gasping.   In any case it was better than the previous vid.


The previous vid?  You mean you mean the one from Big Trouble in Little China??  As much as I love that silly movie, it is a very silly movie.    I sincerely hope nobody looks to that movie for guidance on what is authentic kung fu.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well you said Bruce was a bully who made his name challenging all those Kung fu people who were also selling their hocus pocus. I agree with you, that Bruce was a hot head, loud mouthed peacock. I agree with you that there are plenty of phony CMA people. I just asked what your estimation of CMA was.  ( oh I hate this thrice damned spell check!)



My estimation would be, it depends on what you want in a martial art.

For combat sports, the highest form of martial arts training, then CMA is not the wise path; neither the most efficient nor the most effective.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> For combat sports, the highest form of martial arts training,...


Except, it isn’t.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Except, it isn’t.



It sure is.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> It sure is.


Oh please…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Ok, you read it wrong; the $50k was for UFC-1.
> 
> The Kung-Fu grandpas getting paid by a 3rd party was just speculation on my part. And the beating wasn't even that bad, as I recalled. Xu generally took it easy on them; even at US$10k equivalent, that's well worth it for someone living a hard life in China.


Ok. I did see one Tai chi fella get his clock cleaned. That said, I would take that swatting for 10 k and I don’t even live a hard life in China, or otherwise in a relative sense.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The previous vid?  You mean you mean the one from Big Trouble in Little China??  As much as I love that silly movie, it is a very silly movie.    I sincerely hope nobody looks to that movie for guidance on what is authentic kung fu.


No not that. The earlier one where I said ugh.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> No not that. The earlier one where I said ugh.


Ah, yeah, that.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> My estimation would be, it depends on what you want in a martial art.
> 
> For combat sports, the highest form of martial arts training, then CMA is not the wise path; neither the most efficient nor the most effective.


What is your experience? What do you base this on?


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh please…



the truth hurts sometimes.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> the truth hurts sometimes.


Let me translate what you have said:

Jayoliver00:  “I like martial arts competition.  Therefore, martial arts competition is the bestest that there is.  Because it is what I like.”


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Let me translate what you have said:
> 
> Jayoliver00:  “I like martial arts competition.  Therefore, martial arts competition is the bestest that there is.  Because it is what I like.”



That's wrong.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's wrong.


The truth hurts sometimes…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> the truth hurts sometimes.


We have not yet established your credentials for either telling, or being able to identify truth, such as it is. I am willing to discuss how it is that you came to your conclusions.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> That's wrong.


Well, please elaborate. Without knowing a single thing of your background, how can we know how to discuss with you. If you make a generalized statement regarding a large number of people, you may expect some argument regardless of your intent or the merit of your statement.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What is your experience? What do you base this on?



Thank you for asking, so I will answer you.

I'm by no means, a high level competitor or anything; just basically a nobody, MA hobbyist like most people in here (no matter how important I try to sound to be).

And I'm not implying that anyone's chosen path in the Martial Arts is invalid; just that, training in combat sports is the highest level; with being a UFC Champion the highest, based on this question:

What can the average, ie. Kung-Fu forms world champion guy (who can't really fight well) do, that a UFC champion of his weight class wouldn't be able to, if he really wanted to.

Now if you turn that question around, this all kata guy (even if he sets his mind & soul to it to train for the UFC), is probably going to get demolished at the level, anywhere close to the UFC. Maybe even in the low Amateur stages of 1-5 fights.

Change my mind.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> What can the average, ie. Kung-Fu forms world champion guy (who can't really fight well)


Serious question:  how do you know he can’t fight well?



> do, that a UFC champion of his weight class wouldn't be able to, if he really wanted to.



Serious question: why would it matter if there is nothing he can do, that a UFC champion couldn’t also do?  All that means is that there are different paths to a similar result.  It does not make one better than the other.   There is no “ultimate” in martial arts.  There is only different ways, that appeal to different people.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 22, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Serious question:  how do you know he can’t fight well?



Yea sure, kata people are killers.



Flying Crane said:


> Serious question: why would it matter if there is nothing he can do, that a UFC champion couldn’t also do?  All that means is that there are different paths to a similar result.  It does not make one better than the other.   There is no “ultimate” in martial arts.  There is only different ways, that appeal to different people.



It's still a higher level level of training, as you can't do it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Yea sure, kata people are killers.
> 
> 
> 
> It's still a higher level level of training, as you can't do it.


This is your answer?  And you want to be taken seriously?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 22, 2022)

I’ll let my previous comments stand, because they are on the mark and this response was an absolute non-answer.

However, I do have some honest questions here:


jayoliver00 said:


> Yea sure, kata people are killers.



So, what exactly is a “kata guy”?  How do you define that?  
And to be clear, I never accused anybody of being a killer.



> It's still a higher level level of training, as you can't do it.



I can’t do what?

Again, these are serious questions.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 22, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> UFC 1 dispelled just about all of the above; esp. when it paid out $50,000 for 1 night of fight & in 1993 money.  That's a lot more than what most World Kickboxing title fight paid.  Glory KB doesn't even pay that much, today.  I doubt that Champions like Don Wilson, Benny the Jet, etc. ever made that much in 1 night.
> 
> And most of those dudes that Xu Xiadong fought, came to him. It was prob. a big payday for them to get clobbered by Xu. Look at the stage, crowd, production, etc.  Someone was bank rolling those freak shows. No way were some of those Kung-Fu grandpas that delusional.


I think you need to read more Xu Xiadong so you can better understand why he's trying to save kung fu, and China as a whole.

He's not the first, he won't be the last, and UFC didn't really solve anything.  UFC doesn't mean much at all.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 23, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> This is your answer?  And you want to be taken seriously?


 
Yes.

Can you do it then? Train and fight, MMA?


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 23, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ll let my previous comments stand, because they are on the mark and this response was an absolute non-answer.
> 
> However, I do have some honest questions here:
> 
> ...



Training forms w/o applying it in trying to knock someone out for real in the ring or cage or even during hard sparring.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think you need to read more Xu Xiadong so you can better understand why he's trying to save kung fu, and China as a whole.



I think you don't know what I've read about Xu Xiadong. 



Oily Dragon said:


> He's not the first, he won't be the last, and UFC didn't really solve anything.  UFC doesn't mean much at all.



Yea, I bet the UFC is nothing compared to renting out a high school gym on a Saturday to do forms competition for plastic trophies.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok. I did see one Tai chi fella get his clock cleaned. That said, I would take that swatting for 10 k and I don’t even live a hard life in China, or otherwise in a relative sense.



Are you Chinese?  Is CMA even popular much at all with the youth, there?  I heard that there are more TKD schools, true?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I think you don't know what I've read about Xu Xiadong.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I bet the UFC is nothing compared to renting out a high school gym on a Saturday to do forms competition for plastic trophies.


Ok. So you aware the Xiaodong loves kung fu, and sacrificed his future and wealth for Chinese martial arts and love of country, only to be gang stabbed Caesar style by his own people.  Great!  We are on the level.

But you started with UFC "dispelled all of the above".  I disagree it dispelled very little.  Put another way, it surprised no one, really.  It definitely makes money, though.  What did you mean specifically?  I mean, if you're referring just to Chinese arts, organized (and ad hoc) full contact fighting has been a thing in that country for about as long as recorded history.

And how does that tie into Jeet Kune Do?  That was created by an American.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> The previous vid?  You mean you mean the one from Big Trouble in Little China??  As much as I love that silly movie, it is a very silly movie.    I sincerely hope nobody looks to that movie for guidance on what is authentic kung fu.


It's awesome silly, but there are several authentic kung fu peeps in that movie.  The stuntwork was off the charts.

Dan Inosanto is one of the Wing Kong, dude.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Thank you for asking, so I will answer you.
> 
> I'm by no means, a high level competitor or anything; just basically a nobody, MA hobbyist like most people in here (no matter how important I try to sound to be).
> 
> ...


Ok, so there are some assumptions here, so let me speak to that first. There are quite literally hundreds of styles of “ Kung fu”. They vary widely in form and age. Some are focused on technique, some on historical traditional training, some on health and spiritual development, and still others that are based on pure fighting skill and conditioning. Many are a mix of these differing qualities. I cannot speak to every different “Kung fu” because there are so many, there is no way one person can experience them all. My particular martial art has elements of western boxing ( jabs, hooks, etc.) it also has throws, sweeps, takedowns etc. We don’t do competition. We focus on balance, posture, coordination, and conditioning. We have several forms, or kata as you refer to them. We don’t teach any forms to people until after two years of regular consistent training. When we spar that is also after two years of consistent training. Sparring for us was a mouth guard, a cup, and bag gloves. Then we go 2 vs 1 with no rules For 1 minute rounds. I can tell you that there has been blood, and broken bones. I have had 2 breaks myself. I don’t fight on the street, but I have. I don’t recommend that as a training technique. It takes a very long time to become very skilled at what we do. It’s not fancy, it’s difficult, we don’t award rank, we don’t teach children, we don’t do demonstrations, we don’t wear any snazzy uniform or gear, or belts. You won’t get a trophy. My Sigung ( teachers teacher) would smack me for not listening to instructions, sometimes with a stick. My Sifu would pick up people by their head and kicked me in the tail for an improper horse stance. The main difference in “Kung fu“ styles has more to do with the teaching style than technique. That’s the main thing, because it isn’t tailored to a business model, it’s tailored to getting results from the students that can do it. Not everyone can train like this, not everyone wants to. I think it’s important to distinguish this. Everyone trains for their own reasons. We neither encourage nor discourage what individuals want to do with competition. We have had two students that entered MMA competition and both did quite well. Training and teaching style is what makes a decent fighter into a highly skilled one. Some things cannot be taught, which is part of why not just anyone can succeed. UFC has brought a lot of attention to martial arts as a whole, it has shown what works well and what doesn’t in its own show. UFC has also changed a lot since it began. Each of the main MMA formats have their own distinct formulation of rules and requirements. It is important to remember a few things when comparing fighters in a ring situation. First, that floor is bouncy, and people have to wear gloves, this favors a grappling art over a striking art, and almost makes a throwing art obsolete. Second, there are rules about what techniques can be used, for example, no small joint manipulations are allowed, neither are elbow strikes to the back of the head/neck. These are for obvious reasons. Third, there are no old UFC fighters that are still competitive past age 45 or so. It’s true that these MMA guys at the top of the chain are skilled and tough. It’s true that anyone planning to fight MMA needs grappling skills as well as striking skills to stay competitive. So where did they get those skills? Most learn BJJ for grappling but some are wrestlers. Many learned kickboxing, boxing, and or some TMA for striking. By and large, almost all of them trained in some type of TMA at some point. By my estimation, BJJ is  TMA, and so is Boxing. The distinction here is that MMA is just that, a mix. Each person puts together skills from several martial arts and pits that recipe against another person. The people changed over the decades and so have the rules and recipes that work in that specific framework. In the end, an arm bar is an arm bar and a punch is still a punch. The framework of rules is where the difference is. The teaching style, and the individual that is training is what makes the fighter. UFC does not create fighters, it promotes them. Teachers and coaches and hard work create fighters. Broad statements that generalize “combat sports” as being the reason for a fighter‘s individual success don’t jive with the fact that no one person has trained with every coach or in every martial art. It’s the man, that unique individual that ends up with a recipe that works for him. I may not have changed your mind, but hopefully that explains my point of view.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Yea sure, kata people are killers.
> 
> 
> 
> It's still a higher level level of training, as you can't do it.


Not every CMA guy is a kata guy. You don’t have any idea what we can or can’t do. I kinda think you might be surprised.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I think you don't know what I've read about Xu Xiadong.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I bet the UFC is nothing compared to renting out a high school gym on a Saturday to do forms competition for plastic trophies.


Ok I don’t own a single trophy and I have been training in martial arts of one type or another for most of my fifty years, and 25 years in Wing Woo Gar.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Training forms w/o applying it in trying to knock someone out for real in the ring or cage or even during hard sparring.


I think you think all CMA is the same. It’s not.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think you think all CMA is the same. It’s not.


It's the Western dualistic way.  West beats East.  Easterners didn't know real fighting until the Europeans gave it to them, etc.

But it's not limited to him, it's an unfortunate side effect of the culture wars.  It can be exhausting to discuss martial arts with such people, but give him a chance, and give yourself a nice deep breath.

Listen, Carter Wong was Thunder in Big Trouble.  He also taught cops at the Royal Hong Kong PD.  He does forms in Big Trouble. Is he a kata, can't fight kind of guy?

Dan Inosanto, JKD uber guru, is the guy on the right with the hatchet.  He's probably one of the most dangerous men on the planet, if you believe JKD (which I do).


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Are you Chinese?  Is CMA even popular much at all with the youth, there?  I heard that there are more TKD schools, true?


I’m not Chinese, I live in Northern California. I don’t have a clue what is or isn’t popular in China. CMA isn’t popular anywhere. TKD and BJJ and Muay Thai are what is popularized currently. It’s the most accessible stuff, so it’s what most people find when they go looking to train. CMA can take a very long time to get skilled. BJJ and Muay Thai basics are easy to learn in a fairly short time. That means that for a person interested in ring fighting your shelf life is very short and you need to get grappling and striking skills as quickly as possible because you won’t have ten years to train before your fighting career starts. Like I said before there isn’t any middle aged or geriatric UFC. You have a very limited time to get skills and start fighting.  If you want to be successful you must start young and focus your whole existence on that. What will you be able to do with it when you are 50 and have a host of injuries? It’s a long life…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's the Western dualistic way.  West beats East.  Easterners didn't know real fighting until the Europeans gave it to them, etc.
> 
> But it's not limited to him, it's an unfortunate side effect of the culture wars.  It can be exhausting to discuss martial arts with such people, but give him a chance, and give yourself a nice deep breath.
> 
> ...


I’m not mad, just trying to explain. He asked me to change his mind. Doing my best to give some information without being a jerk about it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m not mad, just trying to explain. He asked me to change his mind. Doing my best to give some information without being a jerk about it.


I know you're not mad, but I can sense the same repetitive cycle I've had 10,000 times.  That's what I meant by "exhausting".

He didn't ask you either.  He demanded it.  That's a telling sign.  When the whole argument is "but UFC", and I've hearing that for 30 years even while learning the grand mysteries of kung fu, my first thought is he's young and just doesn't understand.  Or maybe he's old and stubborn and can't train anymore, so he sits on his butt drinking beer and watching UFC and wants to pick on people.  Who knows?

Hopefully he'll tell me all the places where I'm wrong and then I'll get to post more of the awesome kung fu in movies like Big Trouble, and somehow try to keep tying it back to The Way of the Intercepting Fist.

Rain, Peter Kwong is a Northern Shaolin and Tai Chi Chuan master.









Which is why he still kicking it at 70, and looks marvelous.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Yes.
> 
> Can you do it then? Train and fight, MMA?


Of course I can, anybody can.  It is simply a choice that one makes and then puts in the hard work to learn the skills appropriate for a certain competition venue.  

Do I do it? I would have thought my posting here would have made it clear that I do not.  I made that decision because it holds no interest for me.  I don’t train to compete in that kind of venue, and would not expect to be successful if I stepped into an MMA ring tomorrow.  Is there anything surprising about that?

MMA type competition is a niche interest in a wide ocean of martial arts.  It isn’t any kind of pinnacle.  It is one of many paths that anybody can choose to follow, in their martial journey.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 23, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Training forms w/o applying it in trying to knock someone out for real in the ring or cage or even during hard sparring.


What?  This is borderline incoherent.  Competition is no pinnacle.  It is just an activity.  Do it if you enjoy it and find it interesting, don’t if you don’t.  

You don’t have any experience with or understanding of kata, do you?  Another honest question there.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course I can, anybody can.  It is simply a choice that one makes and then puts in the hard work to learn the skills appropriate for a certain competition venue.
> 
> Do I do it? I would have thought my posting here would have made it clear that I do not.  I made that decision because it holds no interest for me.  I don’t train to compete in that kind of venue, and would not expect to be successful if I stepped into an MMA ring tomorrow.  Is there anything surprising about that?
> 
> MMA type competition is a niche interest in a wide ocean of martial arts.  It isn’t any kind of pinnacle.  It is one of many paths that anybody can choose to follow, in their martial journey.


Very well said.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know you're not mad, but I can sense the same repetitive cycle I've had 10,000 times.  That's what I meant by "exhausting".
> 
> He didn't ask you either.  He demanded it.  That's a telling sign.  When the whole argument is "but UFC", and I've hearing that for 30 years even while learning the grand mysteries of kung fu, my first thought is he's young and just doesn't understand.  Or maybe he's old and stubborn and can't train anymore, so he sits on his butt drinking beer and watching UFC and wants to pick on people.  Who knows?
> 
> ...


I would rather discuss than argue, he seems interested in discussion so…


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I would rather discuss than argue, he seems interested in discussion so…


Well I'd believe that more if this wasn't a thread about Jeet Kune Do, which has no forms, but we're having those old "kata vs. MMA" and "Bruce Lee was only human" chats.  Again.  And again.  And again.

Must be Wednesday!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Well I'd believe that more if this wasn't a thread about Jeet Kune Do, which has no forms, but we're having that old "kata vs. MMA" and "Bruce Lee was only human" chats.  Again.  And again.  And again.
> 
> Must be Wednesday!


I won’t continue past where I left it. My apologies.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 23, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I won’t continue past where I left it. My apologies.


I didn't mean you, sorry.  I meant the intention of the other dude.  If there's one other than hounding JKD students I'm all ears.  I'm just well prepared to deal with the other possibilities.  Hell man, I defend Wing Chun too.  That took a lot of study to be able to pull off.

Keep posting, don't mind me, ever.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I didn't mean you, sorry.  I meant the intention of the other dude.  If there's one other than hounding JKD students I'm all ears.  I'm just well prepared to deal with the other possibilities.
> 
> Keep posting, don't mind me, ever.


No. It applies to me as well. I have engaged in that nonsense argument too many times. I appreciate the reel in. Thank you.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Wu Dip Jeurng?
> 
> It's pretty easy to learn


I have yet to apply this one.  Probably easy to learn the motion, but not sure the application.  I haven't been happy with the application as it was taught to me. Then again it could be that I don't understand it yet as shown in the form


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 24, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have yet to apply this one.  Probably easy to learn the motion, but not sure the application.  I haven't been happy with the application as it was taught to me. Then again it could be that I don't understand it yet as shown in the form


It's super simple.  It's a break and bump strike, using a circular pattern and body weight.  Somebody grabs you close, you pull back hard and immediately double palm push, using a spring motion forward.  It's not that different than the natural way you'd push someone off of you, but training it improves that.

I know a great pummeling drill for 2 people using Wu Dip.  I'll try to find a video of it online.

It's not in JKD, because Bruce Lee viewed this sort of stored movement unnecessary.  I disagree.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 24, 2022)

Should have taken that


Oily Dragon said:


> It's super simple.  It's a break and bump strike, using a circular pattern and body weight.  Somebody grabs you close, you pull back hard and immediately double palm push, using a spring motion forward.  It's not that different than the natural way you'd push someone off of you, but training it improves that.
> 
> I know a great pummeling drill for 2 people using Wu Dip.  I'll try to find a video of it online.
> 
> It's not in JKD, because Bruce Lee viewed this sort of stored movement unnecessary.  I disagree.


I'll have to try it in that context.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Should have taken that
> 
> I'll have to try it in that context.


It's easy to do on the heavy bag too.  Maybe I can draw another bad picture but I'll give it a shot.

I always find it funny this particular technique (Chinese origin) became one of the most recognizable Japanese video game fighter attacks.  The Butterfly Palms...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's easy to do on the heavy bag too.  Maybe I can draw another bad picture but I'll give it a shot.
> 
> I always find it funny this particular technique (Chinese origin) became one of the most recognizable Japanese video game fighter attacks.


Here, and I thought you could do an actual fireball…


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Here, and I thought you could do an actual fireball…


Maybe with some refried beans and a match, but that's the extent of my training there.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Here, and I thought you could do an actual fireball…


Does setting fire to a fart count?


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> people have to wear gloves, this favors a grappling art over a striking art,


I'm not going to argue with your post as a whole, but this particular snippet is incorrect. MMA gloves allow strikers to punch harder without breaking their hands and don't do much to protect the person being punched from a concussion. (Back in the bare-knuckle days of MMA, broken hands were much more common and knockouts were less common.) Those gloves also make certain grappling techniques (specifically chokes) more difficult to execute.

MMA has evolved a lot over the last three decades, both through the training of the fighters and updates to the competition rules. Right now I'd say that the rules have been tweaked to give a slight advantage to striking, although grappling is still necessary and important. (I suspect this is a deliberate goal of the rule tweaks in question, because more paying fans are excited to see punches flying than to see two guys in a clinch or on the ground making tiny technical adjustments to their position for extended periods of time.)


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Does setting fire to a fart count?


Well if you can shoot it or grab it and throw it I will travel to train with you and bring you some special high octane treats!


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What?  This is borderline incoherent.



Because you chose to pretend to not know the context; unless you want me to repeat everything on every post.  



Flying Crane said:


> Competition is no pinnacle.  It is just an activity.  Do it if you enjoy it and find it interesting, don’t if you don’t.



You don't understand the context, which is, can you do it?



Flying Crane said:


> You don’t have any experience with or understanding of kata, do you?  Another honest question there.



Unfortunately, you're wrong, b/c also unfortunately, I do have experience with having to learn kata.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course I can, anybody can.  It is simply a choice that one makes and then puts in the hard work to learn the skills appropriate for a certain competition venue.
> 
> Do I do it? I would have thought my posting here would have made it clear that I do not.  I made that decision because it holds no interest for me.  I don’t train to compete in that kind of venue, and would not expect to be successful if I stepped into an MMA ring tomorrow.  Is there anything surprising about that?
> 
> MMA type competition is a niche interest in a wide ocean of martial arts.  It isn’t any kind of pinnacle.  It is one of many paths that anybody can choose to follow, in their martial journey.



Why don't you want to?


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I think you think all CMA is the same. It’s not.



Not at all. There are Sanda fighters coming from CMA background; they also add in BJJ, Wrestling, etc. for MMA. 

My comment was meant to prove why training as a Fighter, is the highest level of MA training.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not going to argue with your post as a whole, but this particular snippet is incorrect. MMA gloves allow strikers to punch harder without breaking their hands and don't do much to protect the person being punched from a concussion. (Back in the bare-knuckle days of MMA, broken hands were much more common and knockouts were less common.) Those gloves also make certain grappling techniques (specifically chokes) more difficult to execute.
> 
> MMA has evolved a lot over the last three decades, both through the training of the fighters and updates to the competition rules. Right now I'd say that the rules have been tweaked to give a slight advantage to striking, although grappling is still necessary and important. (I suspect this is a deliberate goal of the rule tweaks in question, because more paying fans are excited to see punches flying than to see two guys in a clinch or on the ground making tiny technical adjustments to their position for extended periods of time.)


I have not used those mma gloves, only boxing gloves, so I appreciate the correction here. Thank you. I remember all the messy fights of early mma and ufc. Broken bones, mismatched fights, gi vs no gi, etc.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Not every CMA guy is a kata guy. You don’t have any idea what we can or can’t do. I kinda think you might be surprised.


 
I didn't say they were. I don't think I said this about all CMA guys at all.

By kata guys, I meant dudes who are scared to fight. Just "kata guys" sounds nicer but you made me clarify.  I've seen some in Muay Thai; they don't show up on dedicated sparring days & when there's unannounced sparring, they find excuses to leave early. So hard sparring & competition fights are something that they're really scared of. 

It's comes down to, FEAR. They're scared, but they won't admit it. They're just there for the kata/forms & hitting the pads/bag; learning real skills = nothing wrong with that.  They usually quit after a while. Going to the higher levels of training, which includes getting your clock cleaned, was just not what they're looking for in a sport or even a hobby....so I'm not even talking about doing this Pro yet.  All the BS gets exposed when you're trying to KO the other guy & he, you.  That's why, it's a higher level than just doing kata/forms.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Not at all. There are Sanda fighters coming from CMA background; they also add in BJJ, Wrestling, etc. for MMA.
> 
> My comment was meant to prove why training as a Fighter, is the highest level of MA training.


Ok that makes more sense to me in that context. I’m too old for that now, I’m more interested in staying in good shape and not collecting any new injuries. I’m not above a full contact match with a partner that won’t intentionally give me an injury, but over 50 mma is not a thing I’m aware of. Might be good though, some older guys have a lot of skill to rely on in place of the vigor of youth.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I didn't say they were. I don't think I said this about all CMA guys at all.
> 
> By kata guys, I meant dudes who are scared to fight. Just "kata guys" sounds nicer but you made me clarify.  I've seen some in Muay Thai; they don't show up on dedicated sparring days & when there's unannounced sparring, they find excuses to leave early. So hard sparring & competition fights are something that they're really scared of.
> 
> It's comes down to, FEAR. They're scared, but they won't admit it. They're just there for the kata/forms & hitting the pads/bag; learning real skills = nothing wrong with that.  They usually quit after a while. Going to the higher levels of training, which includes getting your clock cleaned, was just not what they're looking for in a sport or even a hobby....so I'm not even talking about doing this Pro yet.  All the BS gets exposed when you're trying to KO the other guy & he, you.  That's why, it's a higher level than just doing kata/forms.


That’s much clearer. Thank you. Well I have had my clock cleaned more times than I can remember, it’s a good teacher to a point. Again, at my age I need to be concerned with the number of brain injuries I’ve had from concussions and such. My wife isn’t a fan of me coming home all scuffed up. She is trying to preserve me for some reason I can’t figure out. I’m lucky I guess.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Why don't you want to?


It holds no interest for me.  It’s on the same level as why I don’t like eggplant.  Because I don’t.  It isn’t appealing.  I don’t know how to explain a personal preference like that.  Some people like it.  Some people don’t.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I didn't say they were. I don't think I said this about all CMA guys at all.
> 
> By kata guys, I meant dudes who are scared to fight. Just "kata guys" sounds nicer but you made me clarify.  I've seen some in Muay Thai; they don't show up on dedicated sparring days & when there's unannounced sparring, they find excuses to leave early. So hard sparring & competition fights are something that they're really scared of.
> 
> It's comes down to, FEAR. They're scared, but they won't admit it. They're just there for the kata/forms & hitting the pads/bag; learning real skills = nothing wrong with that.  They usually quit after a while. Going to the higher levels of training, which includes getting your clock cleaned, was just not what they're looking for in a sport or even a hobby....so I'm not even talking about doing this Pro yet.  All the BS gets exposed when you're trying to KO the other guy & he, you.  That's why, it's a higher level than just doing kata/forms.


Well, as I’m sure you know, that first fight can be very intimidating. Fear is a natural response at first to any unfamiliar activity, especially one where someone is trying to take your consciousness away from you. Even public speaking can be terrifying to some folks.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Unfortunately, you're wrong, b/c also unfortunately, I do have experience with having to learn kata.


Sure, that isn’t surprising.  I don’t believe you really understand it though, which isn’t a problem.  I have said many times in the forums, that nobody needs to like kata/forms, nobody needs to do them.  You do not need kata in order to be able to effectively fight.  If you do not like kata, then Practice a method that does not use it.  That is your choice and will get no argument from me.  In fact, I support such a decision because I believe everyone should follow the path that makes the most sense and is the most meaningful for them. 

But kata also works, when used appropriately.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> It holds no interest for me.  It’s on the same level as why I don’t like eggplant.  Because I don’t.  It isn’t appealing.  I don’t know how to explain a personal preference like that.  Some people like it.  Some people don’t.


I was into trying out anything to test my skills 20 years ago, I’m just past that now. It’s not as important at a certain point in life. I used to like to eat pizza too, but now I prefer a different type of cuisine.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok that makes more sense to me in that context. I’m too old for that now, I’m more interested in staying in good shape and not collecting any new injuries. I’m not above a full contact match with a partner that won’t intentionally give me an injury, but over 50 mma is not a thing I’m aware of. Might be good though, some older guys have a lot of skill to rely on in place of the vigor of youth.



Me too. I have to move a lot; Muay Thai is often very static, just trading damage. That's why I like learning different things from Kung-Fu, b/c they like to run away a lot & take potshots     Luckily, I still can put a beating on all of my students in their 20-30's, except 2 whom I have to play the running game against.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well, as I’m sure you know, that first fight can be very intimidating. Fear is a natural response at first to any unfamiliar activity, especially one where someone is trying to take your consciousness away from you. Even public speaking can be terrifying to some folks.



I remember when I was new at this MMA gym, there was a really big & strong guy who's a body builder. And he had tremendous cardio also. Everybody feared holding pads for him b/c it hurts, a lot. Sparring against him was worse, b/c he goes full power sooner or later, due to his FEAR. He's one of the guys who would never show up for "announced" sparring days & would find the excuse to leave when it's unannounced sparring. Sometimes, he'd get stuck & had to spar (due to too many excuses already). This was just apart of Muay Thai, to spar & later fight.  This guy even KO'ed one of the Junior Instructors......he laid him out flat. The kid didn't remember the day when he woke up. He's just powerful, had skills & super athletic. Everything was there in the making of a decent to good fighter, but he was just scared. People like these, you can see the FEAR in their eyes when they're sparring.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I remember when I was new at this MMA gym, there was a really big & strong guy who's a body builder. And he had tremendous cardio also. Everybody feared holding pads for him b/c it hurts, a lot. Sparring against him was worse, b/c he goes full power sooner or later, due to his FEAR. He's one of the guys who would never show up for "announced" sparring days & would find the excuse to leave when it's unannounced sparring. Sometimes, he'd get stuck & had to spar (due to too many excuses already). This was just apart of Muay Thai, to spar & later fight.  This guy even KO'ed one of the Junior Instructors......he laid him out flat. The kid didn't remember the day when he woke up. He's just powerful, had skills & super athletic. Everything was there in the making of a decent to good fighter, but he was just scared. People like these, you can see the FEAR in their eyes when they're sparring.


See, that’s a guy I want to avoid because he sounds like he is out of control. That’s dangerous because you don’t want students getting injured badly during training. It sounds like maybe some controlled 2 man excercises with the main teacher could have helped him get control of his situation. It doesn’t do anyone any good to let the big guy just pound on people. Unfortunately, some gyms just feed new guys to the black belts. If their only goal is to hurt other students, they need some help.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, that isn’t surprising.  I don’t believe you really understand it though, which isn’t a problem.  I have said many times in the forums, that nobody needs to like kata/forms, nobody needs to do them.  You do not need kata in order to be able to effectively fight.  If you do not like kata, then Practice a method that does not use it.  That is your choice and will get no argument from me.  In fact, I support such a decision because I believe everyone should follow the path that makes the most sense and is the most meaningful for them.
> 
> But kata also works, when used appropriately.



Kata in the traditional sense, is usually with much extra fluff....partially meant to stretch out the curriculum in order to sell belts/rankings, IMO.  Some of it is also about differentiating family styles, lineages, or even just for looking pretty.  

Shadowboxing, gets right to the point; training how you'd actually fight w/o the added fluff. 

Sure kata works; it's basically shadowboxing with a lot of extra fluff that may get you KO'ed in a real fight if you used it all...that's why you don't see Machida nor Wonderboy nor Karate Kickboxers using even 50% of their kata in real fights. So why did they make people learn all of that Kata? Prob. b/c they want to keep paying students, paying....knowing that less than 5% would want to actually fight in the ring; thus the highest level of training. Otherwise, what would be the continuing goals if not, a ton of kata?


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> See, that’s a guy I want to avoid because he sounds like he is out of control. That’s dangerous because you don’t want students getting injured badly during training. It sounds like maybe some controlled 2 man excercises with the main teacher could have helped him get control of his situation. It doesn’t do anyone any good to let the big guy just pound on people. Unfortunately, some gyms just feed new guys to the black belts. If their only goal is to hurt other students, they need some help.



He was intermediate level & was just scared to get hit in the face often; so he's not really out to hurt people. I sparred him a few times back then when I was newer than him; but I was respecting his power by keeping myself safe = running a lot.  The Junior Instructor that got KO'ed was an example of great forms but low bang time on the clock. This big guy was just an example of what I was talking about, fear. He quit after my 1st 2 years there, then came back about 5 years later while I kept training...so he couldn't touch me; so he quit again after maybe 6 mo. He's a very nice guy & super athletic; just that he couldn't handle this higher level of training due to fear.

I have 1 guy right now that's 300+ pounds of strongman competitor power & athleticism & another at 260 lbs of muscles & also with high athleticism. I just know how to train them to not hurt the little guys, including myself.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Kata in the traditional sense, is usually with much extra fluff....partially meant to stretch out the curriculum in order to sell belts/rankings, IMO.  Some of it is also about differentiating family styles, lineages, or even just for looking pretty.
> 
> Shadowboxing, gets right to the point; training how you'd actually fight w/o the added fluff.
> 
> Sure kata works; it's basically shadowboxing with a lot of extra fluff that may get you KO'ed in a real fight if you used it all...that's why you don't see Machida nor Wonderboy nor Karate Kickboxers using even 50% of their kata in real fights. So why did they make people learn all of that Kata? Prob. b/c they want to keep paying students, paying....knowing that less than 5% would want to actually fight in the ring; thus the highest level of training. Otherwise, what would be the continuing goals if not, a ton of kata?


There is some truth in some instances in what you say here, but it is in no way true across the board.  I have trained in systems in which I felt the kata were poorly designed or poorly understood or poorly integrated into the structure of the system as a whole, or all three at the same time.  My personal opinion is that not all kata were created equal.  Some are unsalvageable and were just bad ideas that ought to be discarded.  Some were designed for performance and were never meant to be a tool for building combative skills.  They were simply meant as a display of athleticism to impress an uneducated audience.  This would include the modern XMA forms tournaments, as well as the Chinese Modern Wushu created in the 1950s by the Chinese communist government as a national cultural spectacle and competition format.  Aesthetically beautiful stuff, demands a high level of athleticism and rigorous training, but only distantly connected to real combative methods.  I have also trained in systems that had a huge curriculum that included countless kata, and it may be that it was built up so large as to keep people paying forever for classes.  That goes against my grain as I feel martial training should build skills that you own and you should not be forever beholden to your teacher.  At some point you need to stand on your own two feet.  I don’t train those systems anymore.  There is definitely a lot of junk out there, no arguments from me.

But that is far from all of kata.  The kata built for the traditional fighting methods were never meant to be performance art.  Nobody was meant to even see them because they are not meant be viewed as a “product”.  They are a tool used (as one tool among many) in building skills.  The only people who would actually see your kata are your teacher who taught them to you, your classmates who train with you, and your students to whom you teach them.  They were never meant to be put on a stage and performed.  They are a work in progress as there is no completion to them.  They are simply to be practiced, continually as a way to hone one’s skills.  To ask to see someone’s kata is like asking a builder to look at his box of tools before you buy a house from him.  The tools are not the end, the house is.  The kata is not the end, the skills are.  A kata is like a hammer.  You use it to keep building.

So I get what you are saying, but this is a common misunderstanding.  The forms that I practice are not filled with fluff.  They intelligently build the foundational skills that are important in the approach to fighting that is consistent with a particular system.  Forms can look unusual to those who do not understand them.  I understand this very specifically because the system that I train looks particularly unusual to most people.  But I understand the reasons why we do what we do, and they make perfect sense to me.  I don’t expect others to understand them if they have never been properly instructed in our methods.  That is my experience.  

When you announce that combative martial sports are the pinnacle of training, then you are taking your own values and assuming that everyone holds your values in common.  That simply is not true.  Ive never held much value in martial sport, never felt a need or compulsion to prove myself to anyone, and never held any interest in even watching it.  I actually tried to watch some of the karate, TaeKwon do, and judo competitions in the summer Olympics.  I was uninterested out of my mind, and not impressed by what I saw.  But that is just me and is not meant to tell anyone else how they ought to feel about it.  So as far as what Machida or Wonderboy are doing with their time, well I only just recognize their names.  I know nothing else about them and honestly don’t care what they are doing.  It has no bearing on what I do.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not going to argue with your post as a whole, but this particular snippet is incorrect. MMA gloves allow strikers to punch harder without breaking their hands and don't do much to protect the person being punched from a concussion.


MMA Gloves leave the knuckles that I strike with exposed, which I like. This means that the bone will still have "cutting" damage as it lands on joints and muscles.  The best way I can describe this is if you were to smash the bones of your forearm together.  You will fill that bone and the harder you strike the deeper it "cuts."  Now put on a Jacket and strike the cut again, now you can hit your forearm harder before you feel.  When my knuckles are covered certain techniques that worked at 20% force now requires 50%-60% force.  MMA gloves eliminate the effectiveness of downward jabs into the abdomen, as it prevents the knuckles from digging into the muscle.  Those are the only two things I can think off the top of my head on how the gloves affect me.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> MMA Gloves leave the knuckles that I strike with exposed, which I like. This means that the bone will still have "cutting" damage as it lands on joints and muscles.  The best way I can describe this is if you were to smash the bones of your forearm together.  You will fill that bone and the harder you strike the deeper it "cuts."  Now put on a Jacket and strike the cut again, now you can hit your forearm harder before you feel.  When my knuckles are covered certain techniques that worked at 20% force now requires 50%-60% force.  MMA gloves eliminate the effectiveness of downward jabs into the abdomen, as it prevents the knuckles from digging into the muscle.  Those are the only two things I can think off the top of my head on how the gloves affect me.


Small joint manipulations are extremely difficult or even impossible. And they have an impact of varying degree on most anything involving a grab.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 25, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> When you announce that combative martial sports are the pinnacle of training, then you are taking your own values and assuming that everyone holds your values in common.  That simply is not true.  Ive never held much value in martial sport, never felt a need or compulsion to prove myself to anyone, and never held any interest in even watching it.  I actually tried to watch some of the karate, TaeKwon do, and judo competitions in the summer Olympics.  I was uninterested out of my mind, and not impressed by what I saw.  But that is just me and is not meant to tell anyone else how they ought to feel about it.  So as far as what Machida or Wonderboy are doing with their time, well I only just recognize their names.  I know nothing else about them and honestly don’t care what they are doing.  It has no bearing on what I do.



You've been training as a martial artist for a long time but never had the desire to fight multiple times to prove your skills being true?  Not even hard sparring?

I still stand by my point that people are usually scared to fight & spar hard on a regular basis, that's why very few do fight. While trained fighters can certainly do what the non-fighters do, if they really wanted to. This is why being a fighter is the highest level of MA training.


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## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Small joint manipulations are extremely difficult or even impossible. And they have an impact of varying degree on most anything involving a grab.


I wouldn't try to do a small joint manipulation in a fight unless my hands were already in place from doing something else.  I don't think I've ever tried to actively go after a small joint manipulation.  My personal thoughts about those things is that they work best when they are used as a secondary option when that joint just happens to be there.  

For example: I wouldn't actively seek to bite someone's finger off,  but since it was on my mouth, I figured,  why not.  That's how I think of small joint locks.  Over all I don't have the hand strength to fool around with certain locks.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> You've been training as a martial artist for a long time but never had the desire to fight multiple times to prove your skills being true?



Prove to whom?  You?  The neighbors?  The world of Martialtalk?  I don’t care what they may or may not think of my skills. 


> Not even hard sparring?


Did you get the impression that I have never done hard sparring? 


> I still stand by my point that people are usually scared to fight & spar hard on a regular basis, that's why very few do fight. While trained fighters can certainly do what the non-fighters do, if they really wanted to. This is why being a fighter is the highest level of MA training.


Well, at the end of the day we all have our reasons for doing what we do.  If this works for you, then keep at it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I still stand by my point that people are usually scared to fight & spar hard on a regular basis, that's why very few do fight. While trained fighters can certainly do what the non-fighters do


I'm not sure this is true.  I think of a lot of scenarios where fighter can't do a lot of what the none fighters do.  Could they do it, if they wanted to?  Maybe. But if that top MMA fighter isn't doing it now in the present, then that answer would be no.  "If they wanted to" makes a lot of assumptions.  I could have been a professional fighter "If I wanted to."  Could I?  If I'm not so sure about that.  Even people who want to be professional Athletes are never able to become one.   Or people who want to be signers don't make it. "If they could" makes the assumption that someone already have the skills and ability.  I'm not the best person in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  Could I be if I wanted to?  I definitely don't feel honest to say yes.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure this is true.  I think of a lot of scenarios where fighter can't do a lot of what the none fighters do.  Could they do it, if they wanted to?  Maybe. But if that top MMA fighter isn't doing it now in the present, then that answer would be no.  "If they wanted to" makes a lot of assumptions.  I could have been a professional fighter "If I wanted to."  Could I?  If I'm not so sure about that.  Even people who want to be professional Athletes are never able to become one.   Or people who want to be signers don't make it. "If they could" makes the assumption that someone already have the skills and ability.  I'm not the best person in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  Could I be if I wanted to?  I definitely don't feel honest to say yes.


Well, and it’s this whole false dichotomy of “trained fighter” vs. “non-fighter” as if those terms are meaningful or can even be adequately defined.

It really comes down to a desire to turn it into a zero-sum game.  The premise is that “I like to do this kind of training and I believe it is the best, therefore nothing else works at all.”  It is a position that, in my opinion, comes from a lack of education. You can see it in the  characterization of those who compete in martial sports (“fighters”) compared with those who do not, particularly if they include kata in their training program (the “non-fighters”).  This is neither an either/or scenario, nor a zero-sum situation.  But people want to insist that it is.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 25, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> All the BS gets exposed when you're trying to KO the other guy & he, you. That's why, it's a higher level than just doing kata/forms.


I think these are 2 separate things.  You are right about the fear though.  Application is definitely a higher level.  There are things that I learned through application (through sparring) that wasn't possible to learn through kata alone.  Kata informs Application.  Application clarifies kata. Sparring validates Kata and Application.

1. Kata -> Application ->Sparring

First the student learns how to throw a jab correctly -> then the student learns what it's used for -> Then the student learns how to apply in the context of sparring.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 25, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't try to do a small joint manipulation in a fight unless my hands were already in place from doing something else.  I don't think I've ever tried to actively go after a small joint manipulation.  My personal thoughts about those things is that they work best when they are used as a secondary option when that joint just happens to be there.
> 
> For example: I wouldn't actively seek to bite someone's finger off,  but since it was on my mouth, I figured,  why not.  That's how I think of small joint locks.  Over all I don't have the hand strength to fool around with certain locks.


I think that, like so many things, it comes down to what you've trained, what you've practiced, and what you've used before. I've used small joint manipulations on many occasions, so I don't hesitate to use them. Sadly, the flip side to that statement is that I've had more opportunity to try them than most.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think these are 2 separate things.  You are right about the fear though.  Application is definitely a higher level.  There are things that I learned through application (through sparring) that wasn't possible to learn through kata alone.  Kata informs Application.  Application clarifies kata. Sparring validates Kata and Application.
> 
> 1. Kata -> Application ->Sparring
> 
> First the student learns how to throw a jab correctly -> then the student learns what it's used for -> Then the student learns how to apply in the context of sparring.



The main prob. with TMA Kata is that they include a lot of fluff, meant for aesthetics, lineage, selling belts, etc.  

And I have no prob. with people just wanting to train forms & light to medium power sparring. It's just a lower level of training than Fighter's training. Because a Fighter can do all of that kata if he wanted to but the non-fighter can't train like the fighter, due to fear.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 26, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Prove to whom?  You?  The neighbors?  The world of Martialtalk?  I don’t care what they may or may not think of my skills.
> 
> Did you get the impression that I have never done hard sparring?
> 
> Well, at the end of the day we all have our reasons for doing what we do.  If this works for you, then keep at it.



Obviously, the main point is still that you probably cannot train & fight like a Fighter; while he can certainly do what you do if he wanted to.  Also, the Fighter probably doesn't want to train like you do, just like you don't care for his; but he could if he wanted to, thus yours is a lower level of training.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure this is true.  I think of a lot of scenarios where fighter can't do a lot of what the none fighters do.  Could they do it, if they wanted to?  Maybe. But if that top MMA fighter isn't doing it now in the present, then that answer would be no.  "If they wanted to" makes a lot of assumptions.  I could have been a professional fighter "If I wanted to."  Could I?  If I'm not so sure about that.  Even people who want to be professional Athletes are never able to become one.   Or people who want to be signers don't make it. "If they could" makes the assumption that someone already have the skills and ability.  I'm not the best person in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  Could I be if I wanted to?  I definitely don't feel honest to say yes.



I'm not necessarily saying to become the best in the world at Fighting or Kata, just the type of training being lower & higher levels.

(1) If I wanted to train Kata only w/some light to medium sparring to earn belts, I can do it pretty easily. Maybe even some hard sparring once in a blue moon.

(2) If I wanted to train RBSD and do similar as above, I can also do that too, easily.

(3) But to fight in MMA or Muay Thai, that's going to be a lot more difficult. The weight cutting in itself is going to suck. Then there's the ton of pain & suffering that comes along with training to fight; not just once but multiple 2-3 fights a year.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> The main prob. with TMA Kata is that they include a lot of fluff, meant for aesthetics, lineage, selling belts, etc.
> 
> And I have no prob. with people just wanting to train forms & light to medium power sparring. It's just a lower level of training than Fighter's training. Because a Fighter can do all of that kata if he wanted to but the non-fighter can't train like the fighter, due to fear.


What a load of nonsense. I don't do hard sparring any more. Neither does Cowboy Cerrone. I'd like to see you go tell him it's because he's afraid. I'll give you a ride to the ER afterwards.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 26, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Obviously, the main point is still that you probably cannot train & fight like a Fighter;


This is the easy part. Me training to be a fighter is easier than me training to be good in my kung fu forms.

Forms never get easier. Once it gets easier you bump it up again and then it's difficult all over.  For example start off with the right.  When it get easy then start on the opposite side and it's like you are a beginner again. Form require me to do more techniques than I would use in a fight.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 27, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Obviously, the main point is still that you probably cannot train & fight like a Fighter; while he can certainly do what you do if he wanted to.  Also, the Fighter probably doesn't want to train like you do, just like you don't care for his; but he could if he wanted to, thus yours is a lower level of training.


Of course I can train like an MMA competitor, if I wanted to.  And of course an mma competitor could train like I do if he wanted to.  Where is the mystery in that?

I really don’t understand your motivation here.  Well, other than to say “I like THIS, so it is the BEST!  Because I like it!”


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 27, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm not necessarily saying to become the best in the world at Fighting or Kata, just the type of training being lower & higher levels.
> 
> (1) If I wanted to train Kata only w/some light to medium sparring to earn belts, I can do it pretty easily. Maybe even some hard sparring once in a blue moon.
> 
> ...


I think I found your problem.  It's right there in the "to fight in MMA or Muay Thai..".

Dude, there are more worlds than those.  Lots more.  And they have plenty of pain and suffering in the training.  Go find them.

I'll grant you this though, in my own opinion, for every 1 person that truly suffers during training any TMA, there are probably 100 that pretend.  Somebody once asked me "how long is your horse" and I surprised myself one day by responding "daily".  Because by then it had become true.

But that's where competition comes in.  People who do have an edge.  People who don't want to, probably have a big disadvantage.  People who can't, god bless their big hearts.

Topic, topic...by the time I started picking up JKD, I didn't have to worry about how long I could hold various static stances.  I could hold them indefinitely.  But I would never abandon them, or any of the fist sets.  They're ingrained in my mental.  Bruce Lee said to keep what was useful.  So far, that's everything.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 27, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm not necessarily saying to become the best in the world at Fighting or Kata, just the type of training being lower & higher levels.
> 
> (1) If I wanted to train Kata only w/some light to medium sparring to earn belts, I can do it pretty easily. Maybe even some hard sparring once in a blue moon.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how old your are, but you are welcomed to do the same training that I do with my son.  We don't train for belts. We don't train for RBSD. We dont' train for Competition.

We are currently training at a Beginner's level so you should be fine.


----------



## _Simon_ (Feb 28, 2022)

Soooooo anyone gonna contact the Super Saiyan for some good ol JKD trainin'??


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course I can train like an MMA competitor, if I wanted to.  And of course an mma competitor could train like I do if he wanted to.  Where is the mystery in that?
> 
> I really don’t understand your motivation here.  Well, other than to say “I like THIS, so it is the BEST!  Because I like it!”



I doubt that you can; let's be real.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think I found your problem.  It's right there in the "to fight in MMA or Muay Thai..".
> 
> Dude, there are more worlds than those.  Lots more.  And they have plenty of pain and suffering in the training.  Go find them.
> 
> ...




I know that there are more "worlds" than these. I even stated such. I'm merely saying that the world of MMA fighting is the higher level.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I doubt that you can; let's be real.


Has this just become personal, about me?  Seriously?  Find yourself another hill to die on.


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## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure how old your are, but you are welcomed to do the same training that I do with my son.  We don't train for belts. We don't train for RBSD. We dont' train for Competition.
> 
> We are currently training at a Beginner's level so you should be fine.



I've been training regularly since about June of 2020, so only stopped during the outbreak for about 4 months. I train about 13-15 hours a week, which pales in comparison to what I'd need to do if I were to compete.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the easy part. Me training to be a fighter is easier than me training to be good in my kung fu forms.
> 
> Forms never get easier. Once it gets easier you bump it up again and then it's difficult all over.  For example start off with the right.  When it get easy then start on the opposite side and it's like you are a beginner again. Form require me to do more techniques than I would use in a fight.



What I'm saying is that a UFC athlete of your size would be able to do those forms that you can do, if he wanted to (unless he has a learning disability or something).  As it's mostly memorization + agility. 

While for you to do what he does, takes a lot more pain & suffering & athleticism. It's like, everybody can jog, but jogging to win marathons, is a much higher level.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I've been training regularly since about June of 2020, so only stopped during the outbreak for about 4 months. I train about 13-15 hours a week, which pales in comparison to what I'd need to do if I were to compete.


WAIT A MINUTE!  You’ve been training for all of LESS THAN TWO WHOLE YEARS??! !

To see how you go on here, I thought by Thor, you must be a 30 year seasoned veteran!  Wow, you had me fooled, you spoke with SUCH authority and conviction!  And to find that YOU DONT EVEN COMPETE!!  This is HILARIOUS!! 😂😂😂😂


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What a load of nonsense. I don't do hard sparring any more. Neither does Cowboy Cerrone. I'd like to see you go tell him it's because he's afraid. I'll give you a ride to the ER afterwards.



You obviously don't know the reasons why Cerrone said that nor what the reasons for hard sparring is for. 

And Cerrone is somehow the Final Authority on how all fighters should train now? Now that's nonsense.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> WAIT A MINUTE!  You’ve been training for all of LESS THAN TWO WHOLE YEARS??! !
> 
> To see how you go on here, I thought by Thor, you must be a 30 year seasoned veteran!  Wow, you had me fooled, you spoke with SUCH authority and conviction!  And to find that YOU DONT EVEN COMPETE!!  This is HILARIOUS!! 😂😂😂😂



Calm down, I meant since the outbreak that shut down my gym.

But I'm glad I made you ecstatically happy for a brief moment there,


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Calm down, I meant since the outbreak that shut down my gym.
> 
> But I'm glad I made you happy for a brief moment there,


Oh, so you’ve been training for something like three years?  And watching matches on TV?  When will you have your first match?  You might gain a smidgen of credibility back.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, so you’ve been training for something like three years?  And watching matches on TV?  When will you have your first match?  You might gain a smidgen of credibility back.



I just told to you that you read it wrong.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I just told to you that you read it wrong.


I doubt it.  You have a credibility problem.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I doubt it.  You have a credibility problem.



Ok so now you're getting mad b/c I said that wasn't true.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Soooooo anyone gonna contact the Super Saiyan for some good ol JKD trainin'??


Sorry I'm not a big JKD fan.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> WAIT A MINUTE!  You’ve been training for all of LESS THAN TWO WHOLE YEARS??! !
> 
> To see how you go on here, I thought by Thor, you must be a 30 year seasoned veteran!  Wow, you had me fooled, you spoke with SUCH authority and conviction!  And to find that YOU DONT EVEN COMPETE!!  This is HILARIOUS!! 😂😂😂😂


Check out the post I made in the LPT


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Check out the post I made in the LPT


Sorry, which one?


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Ok so now you're getting mad b/c I said that wasn't true.


Well no, I’m just pointing out that you have made a ridiculous claim that can only be supported through bias and contortionist logic.  Are you surprised to get opposition?   Did you expect the community to just nod our collective heads and agree with you?

If we are here to make ridiculous claims, I’ll have a go:  the pinnacle of martial arts training is running a spear through a man’s face and seeing the tip explode out the back of his head while the hordes of Kublai Khan surge around me.  How did I do?  I think it’s almost as silly as your assertion, that mma competition represents the pinnacle of martial arts. Mine is certainly much more exciting.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I know that there are more "worlds" than these. I even stated such. I'm merely saying that the world of MMA fighting is the higher level..


Even so, MMA has its own spectrum from good to bad.  Video is out there, people will build cages out of chicken wire and people with PPV-fu MMA training will go to crazy town on each other.  With an audience, beer, wings, the whole nine.

Besides, MMA itself is just a diversified set of TMA things that are both legal and potentially useful in (relatively safe-ish) sport.  Like, no neck breaking please.  Elbows to the eye ball is ok...you've got two of them for a reason.

No martial techniques were invented in the modern age, really.  Just given names in various tongues.  Ground guards? Roundhouse kicks?  Chokes??  Nothing new Solaris, man.

I think untrained people are some of the most dangerous of all.  It could be something as simple as the inability from lack of discipline to stop rolling right off a cliff.  Ever seen _Eye of the Needle?_


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> As it's mostly memorization + agility.


it's more than that. A lot of it is learning to do 2 or 3 things at the same time. It's almost like a "re-wiring" of the brain. A lot of CMA systems have movements that you have never done before in your life and then adds the challenge of doing 2 or 3 of those movements at the same time.  The eyes understand what they see but the brain doesn't know how to make the body move in the same way. There's a lot of coordination involved which makes me wonder what the Kung fu vs MMA guys have been doing all this time and why their foot work is so bad.  It's like they are trying to stand up in a rocking boat and I just don't see how footwork could be that bad if they are actually training it and using it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Feb 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> it's more than that. A lot of it is learning to do 2 or 3 things at the same time. It's almost like a "re-wiring" of the brain. A lot of CMA systems have movements that you have never done before in your life and then adds the challenge of doing 2 or 3 of those movements at the same time.  The eyes understand what they see but the brain doesn't know how to make the body move in the same way. There's a lot of coordination involved which makes me wonder what the Kung fu vs MMA guys have been doing all this time and why their foot work is so bad.  It's like they are trying to stand up in a rocking boat and I just don't see how footwork could be that bad if they are actually training it and using it.


I once helped run a class where guy with decent boxing skills showed up.  He was relatively built and I could tell he was not a beginner.  And with those types I was always super respectful, because I wanted them to stay.  The training was hard.

One week of warmup Qigong was enough to drive him away.  He was sweating and struggling to breathe so hard.  I was stunned.

The lesson I learned is that some people like the basic back and forth, hit and defend, chess like martial arts practice like sparring(and I def do), but really don't enjoy the endurance and strength building parts which are the staple of the martial arts movie "training montage".  That's my favorite stuff, whether it's Rocky, Drunken Master, or Better Off Dead (the ski movie with John Cusack and Booger).  Whether it's carrying 80 lbs of water or holding a Kung Fu plank position for 30 minutes.  That stuff is universally applicable.

 This dude was no shrimp, but we never had the chance to spar (doh) because kung fu training can be really, really hard.  As hard as you want, really.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 28, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Sorry, which one?


The last poster thread. Made the post about someone else yesterday (on a different site), but fully applicable here. 


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I read a comment chain of two people arguing on reddit earlier, and near the end one of them says that he does not have a degree in the field, hasn't taken courses or even studied it, and that's proof that the experts are dumb since even he knows something they disagree with. Then proceed to continue blathering his opinion as if it was fact.
> 
> Nice little reminder to not put too much stock in information from anonymous internet users.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The last poster thread. Made the post about someone else yesterday (on a different site), but fully applicable here.


Yup, I found it. 🙂


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 28, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I once helped run a class where guy with decent boxing skills showed up. He was relatively built and I could tell he was not a beginner. And with those types I was always super respectful, because I wanted them to stay. The training was hard.
> 
> One week of warmup Qigong was enough to drive him away. He was sweating and struggling to breathe so hard. I was stunned.


We had a guy that said he did boxing. I think I have him and his son on video.  He didn't last long due to the coordination challenges. He didn't make it to the kung fu strength building and conditioning part.  He lasted about 3 months I think. I really hope I still have that video.  We often see good people training kung fu.  We rarely see beginners go through the pain.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Feb 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> We had a guy that said he did boxing. I think I have him and his son on video.  He didn't last long due to the coordination challenges. He didn't make it to the kung fu strength building and conditioning part.  He lasted about 3 months I think. I really hope I still have that video.  We often see good people training kung fu.  We rarely see beginners go through the pain.


I see lots of folks start out enthusiastic for about a month or two. Then when the pain train really hits 2 nd gear they quit. Even the young talented folks usually quit.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 1, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> You obviously don't know the reasons why Cerrone said that nor what the reasons for hard sparring is for.
> 
> And Cerrone is somehow the Final Authority on how all fighters should train now? Now that's nonsense.


If you can be the final authority on why people don't train the way you think they should...


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> If you can be the final authority on why people don't train the way you think they should...



Because you touted Cerrone as some kind of final authority on hard sparring, not me. See the difference?  Again, you don't really know why he trains the way he does now and what hard sparring is for. Especially when Cerrone was notorious for hard sparring; as well as most of the top gyms in the world that produces world Champions.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well no, I’m just pointing out that you have made a ridiculous claim that can only be supported through bias and contortionist logic.  Are you surprised to get opposition?   Did you expect the community to just nod our collective heads and agree with you?
> 
> If we are here to make ridiculous claims, I’ll have a go:  the pinnacle of martial arts training is running a spear through a man’s face and seeing the tip explode out the back of his head while the hordes of Kublai Khan surge around me.  How did I do?  I think it’s almost as silly as your assertion, that mma competition represents the pinnacle of martial arts. Mine is certainly much more exciting.



Not what I said that you were getting mad about; so you read this one wrong also.  Obviously it was the other one where you got really happy thinking that I said I've been training less than 3 years. It was pretty funny.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Even so, MMA has its own spectrum from good to bad.  Video is out there, people will build cages out of chicken wire and people with PPV-fu MMA training will go to crazy town on each other.  With an audience, beer, wings, the whole nine.



I'm talking about real athletes, proper training and serious competition.



Oily Dragon said:


> Besides, MMA itself is just a diversified set of TMA things that are both legal and potentially useful in (relatively safe-ish) sport.  Like, no neck breaking please.  Elbows to the eye ball is ok...you've got two of them for a reason.



MMA athlete would  know how to break someone's neck if it was legal. 



Oily Dragon said:


> No martial techniques were invented in the modern age, really.  Just given names in various tongues.  Ground guards? Roundhouse kicks?  Chokes??  Nothing new Solaris, man.



Let's start with these 2 techniques: Iminari Roll  & Berimbolo.  Can you show proofs that these existed in history or even, 100 years ago?



Oily Dragon said:


> I think untrained people are some of the most dangerous of all.  It could be something as simple as the inability from lack of discipline to stop rolling right off a cliff.  Ever seen _Eye of the Needle?_



Untrained people are pretty terrible at fighting. I like letting them swing full power at me when we spar, and not retaliate. I encourage my intermediate guys to do the same but at around 60% power....to prove to them that their training is working.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm talking about real athletes, proper training and serious competition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you're an MMA trainer somewhere? 

Then why are you so busy cluttering up a JKD thread?  Shouldn't you be, you know, off "encouraging your intermediate guys"?


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> it's more than that. A lot of it is learning to do 2 or 3 things at the same time. It's almost like a "re-wiring" of the brain. A lot of CMA systems have movements that you have never done before in your life and then adds the challenge of doing 2 or 3 of those movements at the same time.  The eyes understand what they see but the brain doesn't know how to make the body move in the same way. There's a lot of coordination involved which makes me wonder what the Kung fu vs MMA guys have been doing all this time and why their foot work is so bad.  It's like they are trying to stand up in a rocking boat and I just don't see how footwork could be that bad if they are actually training it and using it.



I'm sure it's not easy to win Kata Competitions, but I'm sure that it's mostly about athleticism.  Full time MMA fighters are training 2-3 sessions a day, and working a job to live. Pretty sure if these MMA fighters trained 2-3 times a day doing kata, can figure it out and be great at it, if it paid real money.

And footwork is based on how someone fight. There's no exact footwork for MMA.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 1, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I'm sure it's not easy to win Kata Competitions, but I'm sure that it's mostly about athleticism.  Full time MMA fighters are training 2-3 sessions a day, and working a job to live. Pretty sure if these MMA fighters trained 2-3 times a day doing kata, can figure it out and be great at it, if it paid real money.
> 
> And footwork is based on how someone fight. There's no exact footwork for MMA.


You think TMA has "exact footwork".  Please explain, because I think you're wrong.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You think TMA has "exact footwork".  Please explain, because I think you're wrong.



Show me where I said or implied such? I was merely talking about MMA.


----------



## jayoliver00 (Mar 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> So you're an MMA trainer somewhere?
> 
> Then why are you so busy cluttering up a JKD thread?  Shouldn't you be, you know, off "encouraging your intermediate guys"?



Hmmm, let me think real hard about this one.... maybe it's b/c I don't live at the gym or something, like they do in the movies? What, I can't get on the internet to post on forums? NO right? Need to keep training and you know, always "encouraging intermediate guys"....even though they're probably at home with their family or something. LOL. 

I also like to tool around with my cars, watch movies, Larp, work a job, etc...NO, must stop all of that & train & encourage intermediate guys with all of that time wasted, right?  Darn it, just wasted at least 4 minutes typing this and could've been encouraging people at the gym


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## Flying Crane (Mar 1, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Not what I said that you were getting mad about; so you read this one wrong also.  Obviously it was the other one where you got really happy thinking that I said I've been training less than 3 years. It was pretty funny.


I am sorry to be causing you more confusion, but you are the only one who is confused.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Because you touted Cerrone as some kind of final authority on hard sparring, not me.


No, you touted yourself as being able to determine why others don't train the way you think they should. I think Cowboy has more credibility.


jayoliver00 said:


> See the difference?  Again, you don't really know why he trains the way he does now and what hard sparring is for. Especially when Cerrone was notorious for hard sparring; as well as most of the top gyms in the world that produces world Champions.


Yeah. I've only known the family for like 25 years. I couldn't possibly have any clue.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I am sorry to be causing you more confusion, but you are the only one who is confused.



that's funny.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 3, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you touted yourself as being able to determine why others don't train the way you think they should. I think Cowboy has more credibility.



No, because you've presented Cerrone's current methods of training as some sort of final authority on hard sparring w/o knowing that he's notorious for hard sparring and not understanding what hard sparring is actually for; but only did so b/c you thought it aligned with your personal fears for hard sparring.

While I did not use myself as the counter to Cerrone's current methods of training, but that of top gyms of the world that produces world champions; which all have hard sparring.



Dirty Dog said:


> Yeah. I've only known the family for like 25 years. I couldn't possibly have any clue.



Well that's cool, but Cerrone's training has always included hard sparring throughout most of his career, so why?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 3, 2022)




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## Oily Dragon (Mar 3, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Hmmm, let me think real hard about this one.... maybe it's b/c I don't live at the gym or something, like they do in the movies? What, I can't get on the internet to post on forums? NO right? Need to keep training and you know, always "encouraging intermediate guys"....even though they're probably at home with their family or something. LOL.
> 
> I also like to tool around with my cars, watch movies, Larp, work a job, etc...NO, must stop all of that & train & encourage intermediate guys with all of that time wasted, right?  Darn it, just wasted at least 4 minutes typing this and could've been encouraging people at the gym


Well, I'm confused.  JKD, what do you know about that?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> that's funny.


Just doin’ my job. 

I think we all need a little more comedic break around here.  Sometimes we all take ourselves a little too seriously.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Full time MMA fighters are training 2-3 sessions a day, and working a job to live.


I used to train that much.  Three times a day, plus a full time job.  Nobody paid me to do it though. 

I haven’t done that in a while.  Im not in my forties anymore.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Just doin’ my job.
> 
> I think we all need a little more comedic break around here.  Sometimes we all take ourselves a little too seriously.


I never take myself too seriously .  Nope you must be talking about someone else lol


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I used to train that much.  Three times a day, plus a full time job.  Nobody paid me to do it though.
> 
> I haven’t done that in a while.  Im not in my forties anymore.



You didn't train to fight MMA though.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> You didn't train to fight MMA though.


Of course not.  What a waste that would have been.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 3, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course not.  What a waste that would have been.


ha ha ha are you guys still going at it.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha are you guys still going at it.


Sigh.  Apparently so.  This is really stupid.

The next thing you know, this fellow will be talking trash about chocolate ice cream.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 8, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> You didn't train to fight MMA though.


 You are obsessed. It’s kinda sad at this point.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 8, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Of course not.  What a waste that would have been.



because you wouldn't be able to; thus it's a higher level of training.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You are obsessed. It’s kinda sad at this point.



But you're the guy needing quote my post that was directed towards someone else, therefore I wasn't even talking to you.  Wouldn't that be deemed as being more obsessive?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 10, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> But you're the guy needing quote my post that was directed towards someone else, therefore I wasn't even talking to you.  Wouldn't that be deemed as being more obsessive?


Its a forum for discussion. Discussing includes commentary and opinion. Thus, I have chosen( likely unwisely) to comment on your opinion. It’s just always the same old merry go round. MMA vs Everything else. It’s old and tired and holds no water. Style vs style arguments are the equivalent of any opinion based rant. So, there you go, my opinion of your opinion, which you restated time and time again. Don’t take it personal, your opinion is just as valid as mine.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 10, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> But you're the guy needing quote my post that was directed towards someone else, therefore I wasn't even talking to you.  Wouldn't that be deemed as being more obsessive?


Try not to be ridiculous. Anything you post on a public forum is, obviously, there for anyone and everyone to respond to.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Try not to be ridiculous. Anything you post on a public forum is, obviously, there for anyone and everyone to respond to.



Try to understand what I said, in context.  Thanks.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Its a forum for discussion. Discussing includes commentary and opinion. Thus, I have chosen( likely unwisely) to comment on your opinion. It’s just always the same old merry go round. MMA vs Everything else. It’s old and tired and holds no water. Style vs style arguments are the equivalent of any opinion based rant. So, there you go, my opinion of your opinion, which you restated time and time again. Don’t take it personal, your opinion is just as valid as mine.



I totally agree. Which is why I replied to your post in said, "forum for discussion"; and I'm not against you being obsessed by it.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 11, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> Try to understand what I said, in context.  Thanks.


I understood it perfectly well. You complained that someone replied to your public post on an international forum 'because you weren't talking to them". I pointed out that, in fact, you WERE talking to them, and anybody else who cared to read it. That's sort of how forums such as this work.
If you want a private conversation, take it to PM. That's what it's for.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I understood it perfectly well. You complained that someone replied to your public post on an international forum 'because you weren't talking to them". I pointed out that, in fact, you WERE talking to them, and anybody else who cared to read it. That's sort of how forums such as this work.
> If you want a private conversation, take it to PM. That's what it's for.



I don't think you did, def. not perfectly well. I never complained about him responding to my public post. I was arguing that his calling me obsessive, was being hypocritical of himself.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 12, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I don't think you did, def. not perfectly well. I never complained about him responding to my public post. I was arguing that his calling me obsessive, was being hypocritical of himself.


I don't think you understand how forums work, then. People respond to others, regardless of who they were talking to. Otherwise there'd be no discussion to be had.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 13, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't think you understand how forums work, then. People respond to others, regardless of who they were talking to. Otherwise there'd be no discussion to be had.



I don't think you understand what I said though b/c I wasn't complaining about his butting in.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 13, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> I don't think you understand what I said though b/c I wasn't complaining about his butting in.


I never said you were complaining about it.


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## jayoliver00 (Mar 13, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I never said you were complaining about it.



you said:

"I don't think you understand how forums work, then. People respond to others, regardless of who they were talking to. Otherwise there'd be no discussion to be had."

This implied that I was.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 13, 2022)

jayoliver00 said:


> you said:
> 
> "I don't think you understand how forums work, then. People respond to others, regardless of who they were talking to. Otherwise there'd be no discussion to be had."
> 
> This implied that I was.


Ah, you misunderstood. I was referring to the other part of your statement, where you were saying Wing Woo Gar was being obsessive by replying to you on a forum. Since that's normal behavior on a forum, but you find it obsessive, that is why I don't think you understand how forums work.


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