# Butterfly Sword Form



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 21, 2002)

> Kaith will teach me this form next month and then I'll be able to answer.


LOL, I'm not -that- far into it yet. 

Check out:
Wing Chun Kung-Fu
Vol. 3 Weapons and Advanced Techniques
by Dr. Joseph Wayne Smith
ISBN:0-8048-1720-0  $12.95US

Its fairly decent (just got it last night), has the wooden dummy form, Butterfly knife form and 6 1/2 foot pole form.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Apr 20, 2002)

Kaith will teach me this form next month and then I'll be able to answer.

Are the weapons forms in Wing Chun lifted from some other system? I wouldn't be at all surprised if they _weren't_ true to the Wing Chun spirit--that they were just pulled in from some other kung fu system.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by disciple _
> 
> *Shouldn't this be in wing chun forum?
> *



Oh yeah...consider it done!

I couldn't get the Willliam Cheung site to come up?


----------



## arnisador (Apr 21, 2002)

As it happens I have that book already! I'll check it out.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 21, 2002)

The six and a half pole form--he states that that's the number of _techniques_ used with this 7+ foot pole--is surprisingly short! Are the butterfly knives used in practice dull or sharpened?


----------



## Cthulhu (Dec 22, 2001)

I was recently looking through William Cheung's book on the butterfly swords/knives, and noticed something interesting/odd.  In the demonstrated form, which I believe is supposed to be a Wing Chun form, he does at least two leaping 360-degree spins.  To me, this is counterintuitive to the directness and economy of motion of the rest of the Wing Chun curriculum.  I have yet to see someone else demonstrate the Yip Man Wing Chun form for this weapon.  Can anyone tell me if these leaping spins are actually in Yip Man Wing Chun?

Cthulhu


----------



## fist of fury (Apr 20, 2002)

Willlaim Cheungs Wing Chun has always been a little different. Here's a website with some vidoe clips of the first and second forms.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp

Notice the large circular movements.


----------



## fist of fury (Apr 21, 2002)

Try this link 
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/

go to the section titled  The System


----------



## disciple (Apr 20, 2002)

Shouldn't this be in wing chun forum? 

salute

:asian:


----------



## arnisandyz (Jul 16, 2002)

Cthulhu,

I have a video of a WC butterfly sword form I'll let you borrow some time.  Thought about making some trainers at one point but never got around to it. You should be able to relate to a majority of the techniques, after doing the 20 or so variations of siniwali, other double weapon practice seems easy!


----------



## jongman (Oct 20, 2002)

look dim buk kwun - 6 and a half point pole : denotes the number of strikes practised in this form, it is short but direct.
One of these strikes is directed at an opponent's legs- very useful technique one would say. How to avoid?    Practise the butterfly sword form, bart chum dao ( 8 cuts ), and do the leaps in the air. Again very useful. The 360 degree spin is optional but for the purposes of flow in the form usually added.




http://redjunk.net


----------



## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

The current (Nov. 2003) issue of Inside Kung Fu has a story on the butterfly knives, though not from a Wing Chun perspective.


----------



## leehoicheun (Sep 27, 2003)

Sigung William Cheung teaches traditional Wing Chun which is different from most of the other classical Wing Chun systems you see out there today. Sigung Cheung was taught by Yip Man the "traditional" system while he was living with Yip Man. 

To understand the Baat Jaam Dao form one has to look at where it came from. Wing Chun being a system born from the Shaolin Temple would lead one to believe that this form bares a resemblence to other spinning type movements in many Shaolin forms. 

This does not mean that it goes against Wing Chun principle. The Luk Dim Boon Kwun for example has cat stance and low horses. These stance suiting  the weapon perfectly. The spinning motion of the Dao allows an enemies spear to continue on it's path as the WC practitioner spins it out and follows up with a double slash. I have seen this performed and have trained it myself. I think what is confusing for most is that the "spinning" seems to not make sense compared to the rest of the system. 

I hope this helps. I myself like to look at all of Wing Chun regardless of lineage in order to attain Wing Chun Wholeness. Sigung William Cheung has been a big part of my life and I value his teachings immensly. 

Word of caution about book and vodeo learning when it comes to this form. The only way to truly understand this weapon you MUST be guided by a certified instructor. The books and videos are vague at best. I own them also. They are good to have but learning the material contained within them does not mean you "know" the form. 

good luck.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by leehoicheun _
> *This does not mean that it goes against Wing Chun principle. The Luk Dim Boon Kwun for example has cat stance and low horses. These stance suiting  the weapon perfectly. *



Wing Chun has a small variety of stance compared to many Chinese arts. Does the cat stance appear only in this (weapons) form or is it ever used without weapons?

Another thread on wide stance in Wing Chun:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6296


----------



## leehoicheun (Sep 27, 2003)

in the Chum Kui form you see what resembles a cat stance but in reality it is a T-step (full side step) in transition. In the Bui Jee form you see the first low (deep/wide) horse in combination with the Fut Sau (swinging arm).

I think the key is to not over analyze the techniques, but rather, look at the principles that support them. Those principles can translate to any style of martial art with incredible results. I often get martial artists from other systems in to train and instead of trying to make them change their sytem to mine I use the Wing Chun principles to help them look deeper into their present or prior art in order to enhance it. 

The principles of Wing Chun vary in wording but all pretty much state the same thing. They are:

1. Guard the Center 
2. Face the Point of Contact 
3. Economy of Movement
4. Touch Reflexes: Chi Sao
5. Watch the Leading Elbow 
6. Use Linear Striking Action 
7. Avoid Fighting Force Against Force 
8. Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time (block and strike symultaneiously)
9. Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective 
10. Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Sports Injuries


----------



## arnisador (Sep 27, 2003)

I've started two new threads to discuss this:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10655
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10656

In Modern Arnis we often say something simialr to what you said--that our art meshes very well with other arts and enhances them.


----------

