# I think kickboxing is better than submission grappling for SD?



## Freestyler777 (Mar 7, 2008)

I think kickboxing, or just reguar boxing, is better than the guard game.  In theory, any full-force sparring sport can be useful, but there are certain factors that make boxing/kickboxing/muay thai as well as the balance and takedown defense of wrestling better than submission.   An uninteruppted groundfight is just not that realistic, IMO.  

It is good to start in wrestling, because they are strong in their ability to dictate if the altercation goes to the ground or not, but punching and kicking is better than submission.  That is my opinion.  

Even MMA has become more focused on kickboxing and ground n pound and less on submissions.  I'm no streetfighter, but looking at one guy laying in between another man's legs just doesn't look like fighting to me.  Just because MMA allows a lot of techniques doesn't make it the best sport for SD.  And I must apologize to all the posters here who have heard my theory of self defense before.  I have nothing else to write but to rehash my previous posts.  Bummer for you reading this


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## Empty Hands (Mar 7, 2008)

Freestyler777 said:


> I'm no streetfighter, but looking at one guy laying in between another man's legs just doesn't look like fighting to me.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 7, 2008)

i patently deny such allegations.

kickboxing and wrestling.

:cheers:


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## Skip Cooper (Mar 8, 2008)

My background is in amateur wrestling and later I took up submission grappling for sport. My primary self-defense is Hapkido, however, I have added muay thai style kicks and boxing to my striking set. 

I will agree with you that it probably isn't wise to pull guard all the time, but one might find themselves on the ground with the opponent sitting square in their chest attempting to pound him into a pulp. This is where the knowledge of the ground game comes into play, to be able to regain a position of control on the bottom to either sweep or submit your opponent.

To say that one style, primarily your own, is better than another for self defense is to take a narrow view on what may happen in a fight. You might the be the best MT fighter/boxer in town, but how good will you be in close quarters or if you slip on a puddle of oil in a parking lot? How do you defend a takedown with MT/Boxing? I am one of those who will gladly take a punch just to get in close to take you down. I have a hard head and your knuckles are weaker in comparison. 

Just a little food for thought...don't limit your training to a certain style. Learn all you can: prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

:yinyang: Peace :asian:


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 8, 2008)

you are obviously unfamiliar with freestyler777, the resident madman of martialtalk.com

I believe the best fighter is a kickboxer with a wrestling background.  Case in point- Chuck Lidell.  He wants to punch, and if he is taken down, he scrambles to stand up again and resume kickboxing.  

I was a wrestler and I have some judo experience, so I am  not biased.  I used to think submission grappling was the best.  But the point is, all what matters is what will keep you alive, and i think being on the ground would be dangerous.  That being said, it is true that versatility is good, but nobody should CHOOSE to go the ground, it should be a last resort type thing.  

I have spoken my peace.:yoda:


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 8, 2008)

we all have our thoughts on what makes the best fighter.  They all differ for resaons of our background and experence. 
Having been in a few street situations the last place I want to be is on my back with someone pinning me down. Just to many things can happen with others milling around. staying on ones feet< if possible, is much safer.
Not saying that a wrestling and kickboxing background is not valluable just saying I personaly want to be upright if possible.


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## Doc_Jude (Mar 8, 2008)

Freestyler777 said:


> I think kickboxing, or just reguar boxing, is better than the guard game.  In theory, any full-force sparring sport can be useful, but there are certain factors that make boxing/kickboxing/muay thai as well as the balance and takedown defense of wrestling better than submission.   An uninteruppted groundfight is just not that realistic, IMO.
> 
> It is good to start in wrestling, because they are strong in their ability to dictate if the altercation goes to the ground or not, but punching and kicking is better than submission.  That is my opinion.
> 
> Even MMA has become more focused on kickboxing and ground n pound and less on submissions.  I'm no streetfighter, but looking at one guy laying in between another man's legs just doesn't look like fighting to me.  Just because MMA allows a lot of techniques doesn't make it the best sport for SD.  And I must apologize to all the posters here who have heard my theory of self defense before.  I have nothing else to write but to rehash my previous posts.  Bummer for you reading this



"I think kickboxing is better than sub grappling for SD"...

You are correct. "Kickboxing" + takedown defenses/sprawling is better for SD, since in real-world scenarios, mobility is the Golden Rule (besides "*Do Unto Others Before They Do Unto You*", of course...)


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 8, 2008)

I'm glad that other people see it the same way.  I'm not making excuses, it's just that staying up and mobile is essential to staying alive.  It doesn't matter who wins a cagefight and becomes champion, it matters who survives.


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2008)

With the greatest respect to the other posters but haven't we had this discussion before?......... several times from the same OP. 
Where I am it's 2 in the morning I've just travelled miles from an MMA fight night where incidentally all but two of the fifteen fights were ended as subs.
Standard Tez rant coming up............ MMA IS A SPORT. Now thank you and good night.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2008)

Well said, duck :tup:.  

I guess I'd better say sayonara too as I'm supposed to be up and teaching in less than eight hours ('open day' beginners iaido course !).


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## kidswarrior (Mar 8, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I guess I'd better say sayonara too as I'm supposed to be up and teaching in less than eight hours ('open day' beginners iaido course !).


Good luck. They couldn't be in better hands. :asian:



			
				Tez3 said:
			
		

> Standard Tez rant coming up............ MMA IS A SPORT. Now thank you and good night.


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 8, 2008)

well i got an email from bob hubbard welcoming me to post on martialtalk again, so I just rephrased my old beliefs.  i love wrestling and all those grappling sports, but i must be realistic in my mindset.  Striking is the major aspect of self-defense, and boxing/kickboxing is a non-lethal, organized form of fighting.  

Who cares about this stuff anyway?  Let's just train in what makes us happy.  

I was a wrestler, then i played judo for three years, and now I want to get an edge in kickboxing.  To each his own.


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## theletch1 (Mar 8, 2008)

I think Tez's rant was aimed at pointing out that comparing an art designed for SD to MMA is comparing apples to oranges.  MMA was not designed for SD.  It was designed for sport.  Can certain aspects of it be used for SD?  Certainly.  Should it be bashed as being unfit for SD? Certainly not... that's not what it's purpose is.


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## matt.m (Mar 11, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I think Tez's rant was aimed at pointing out that comparing an art designed for SD to MMA is comparing apples to oranges. MMA was not designed for SD. It was designed for sport. Can certain aspects of it be used for SD? Certainly. Should it be bashed as being unfit for SD? Certainly not... that's not what it's purpose is.


 

I agree with you totally,
semper fi bud


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## Bodhisattva (Mar 12, 2008)

Freestyler777 said:


> I think kickboxing, or just reguar boxing, is better than the guard game.  In theory, any full-force sparring sport can be useful, but there are certain factors that make boxing/kickboxing/muay thai as well as the balance and takedown defense of wrestling better than submission.   An uninteruppted groundfight is just not that realistic, IMO.
> 
> It is good to start in wrestling, because they are strong in their ability to dictate if the altercation goes to the ground or not, but punching and kicking is better than submission.  That is my opinion.
> 
> Even MMA has become more focused on kickboxing and ground n pound and less on submissions.  I'm no streetfighter, but looking at one guy laying in between another man's legs just doesn't look like fighting to me.  Just because MMA allows a lot of techniques doesn't make it the best sport for SD.  And I must apologize to all the posters here who have heard my theory of self defense before.  I have nothing else to write but to rehash my previous posts.  Bummer for you reading this



Nope.  If those boxers didn't have good wrestling skills they'd get thrown to the mat and submitted.

The only reason they are able to stay to their feet is because of their wrestling and counter wrestling abilities.

Their ability to get back to their feet is due to their good wrestling skills as well.

If you want to stay on your feet and hit people, then make sure you are a good wrestler and good in the clinch - otherwise people will take you to the ground.

Likewise if you are attacked by a crowd - the ground is NOT where you want to be.

So you had BETTER be good on the ground, so that you can GET OFF THE GROUND.

Otherwise, without wrestling skills, you will get stuck there - and then you are done.

Gotta learn to fight in all three ranges - there are no shortcuts.

But don't worry, groundfighting is FUN.  So you may as well learn it anyway !


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## myusername (Mar 12, 2008)

*A satire*​ 
*No-shizu practitioner:* _I think that Lactalose is better than Senokot for constipation!_

*Carapa-poo practitioner:* _No way dude the only true answer to constipation is Senna!_

*No-shizu practitioner:* _You must be kidding! Not trying to disrespect your laxative training man! but I've tried Senna at least twice and it just gave me a stomach ache so I know from real life experience that the only thing that can help true constipation is Lactalose!_

*Carapa-poo practitioner:* _No way, I've been constipated loads of times and the only thing that has worked for me is Senna! It's scientific fact man! Where is your laxative when your feacal matter is impacted in the upper intestines!_

*No-shizu practitioner:* _At least 90% of constipation situations end up in the lower intestine!_

*Poopershooter:* _You are both wrong of course! The only thing that offers true protection from constipation is a fully loaded enema! Empty syringe techinques are a waste of time in modern day society!_

*Carapa-poo practitioner:* _Surely thats excessive force!_

*Poopershooter:* _I'd rather be judged by 12 gastrologists than buried by a poo!_

*Reasonableman:* _Surely all of these approaches to constipation are valid and it depends on the individual person and their needs?_

*No-shizu practitioner,Carapa-poo practitioner & Poopershooter together:* _Shut up man! What do you know!_


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## theletch1 (Mar 12, 2008)

Doood! You are soooo full of crap!:lool:


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## myusername (Mar 12, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> *Doood! You are soooo full of crap!*:lool:


 
That should definately have been the final line! If only I had thought of it! LOL


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 12, 2008)

Freestyler777 said:


> you are obviously unfamiliar with freestyler777, the resident madman of martialtalk.com
> 
> I believe the best fighter is a kickboxer with a wrestling background. Case in point- Chuck Lidell. He wants to punch, and if he is taken down, he scrambles to stand up again and resume kickboxing.
> 
> I have spoken my peace.:yoda:


 
Chuck Lidell is a kempo black belt with experience in Koei-Kan karate as well.
Does that factor into your theory, or am I feeding the troll?

AoG


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## Freestyler777 (Mar 14, 2008)

I like Boddhisattva's post.  Full of good knowledge.

:boxing: I deny any allegations of trollhood.


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