# Tracy's Versus American Kenpo



## marshallbd (Mar 25, 2004)

This link gets you to the list of Techniques required in the Tracy's system  
http://www.tracyskarate.com/beltsystem_Folder/beltreq.htm How do these techniques compare to the ones required for each level in the American Kenpo (Parker's) system?  Not trying to sya one is better than the other.....Just curious.  I have had a little bit of exposure to each at the very beginning levels and the Techs seem similar to me but again the uneducated speaks... What do you more knowledgeable guys think?. :asian:


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## marshallbd (Mar 25, 2004)

That seems like an awful lot to remember, even at the 5th degree level.... How hard is it to kep something on that scale fresh or at least not forgotten.  I would have to practice them everyday and just go through the first throught the very last 10-20- or 30 per day then start over again.  And then all those techniques are incorporated into the forms as well? Man....I don't know if I'll ever get to Black but it sure wont get boring on the way there huh? Just to make it clear, I am only a yellow belt and have a hard time remebering the Techniques that I learned before the school I was attending closed down....:asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 25, 2004)

Big fan of Sullivan, the man, but not the KC application of an otherwise good idea.  In early kenpo, many of the streams had so many techniques, that it was pretty hard to keep them straight.  Many oldsters in the mist pared away the number of techniques, some sropping requirements to 15/belt plus a form or two, and the rest of the time spent sparring or (god-forbid) cross training on something like a short list of judo throws, or the like. (I won't mention any names, or what's-his-name will accuse me of name dropping again).

But, yeah, there's a lot to learn.  I've encouraged kenpo black belts who wanted to boost their resume without boosting their skill to go train in Korean and Japanese MA, because most kenpo schools will have more "stuff" to remember in the first 4 belts, then a lot of these other systems will for 10th dan.  I read a good point on another thread...takes plus or minus 5 years to get black in kenpo with regular training, several times a week, with no breaks...but only a couple years to black in a lot of the traditional systems.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 25, 2004)

I've studied a bit of both. My opinion is that a lot of what the Tracy's system does is re-articulate basic kenpo with there own terms and concepts. I've heard the rhetoric about how you canot be thinking about principles; however they do, just on there own terms. As for having more techs, they have just put a name on a variation where as Epak practitioners call it a variation. 
Sean


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## MJS (Mar 25, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> That seems like an awful lot to remember, even at the 5th degree level.... How hard is it to kep something on that scale fresh or at least not forgotten.  I would have to practice them everyday and just go through the first throught the very last 10-20- or 30 per day then start over again.  And then all those techniques are incorporated into the forms as well? Man....I don't know if I'll ever get to Black but it sure wont get boring on the way there huh? Just to make it clear, I am only a yellow belt and have a hard time remebering the Techniques that I learned before the school I was attending closed down....:asian:



Yup, you're right on that one!!  There are quite a few in the EPAK system as well.

Mike


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 25, 2004)

The KenpoNet archives have an interesting page matching Tracy technique names to Parker technique names.  Pretty valuable tool for Kenpoists.

My Kenpo branch is an off-shoot of Tracy's we only have about 190 techniques/variations.  I used to think Tracy's 400 variations to Black and 600 variations total was too much to remember...then, I discovered grappling and don't think 600 is so many any more.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 25, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> The KenpoNet archives have an interesting page matching Tracy technique names to Parker technique names. Pretty valuable tool for Kenpoists.
> 
> My Kenpo branch is an off-shoot of Tracy's we only have about 190 techniques/variations. I used to think Tracy's 400 variations to Black and 600 variations total was too much to remember...then, I discovered grappling and don't think 600 is so many any more.


Most excellent point by the most excellent OFK; but, based on the lkevel of kinesthetic input to the nervous system, and the intensity of the involvement (i.e., escape the guillotine, or sleep painfully) that the grappling lends itsewlf to memory more easily?  Just my thought.  One of my persoanl challenges in kenpo training, especially early on, was keeping the names of everything straight. Can do Short 3, but can't name off what SD tek I'm in the middle of while I'm doing it.  Dyslexia sucks.  Especially if you have to do right and left sides on everything.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 25, 2004)

Those goofy Kenpo technique names sure helped me memorize things.  Being a kid/teenager/college student coming up the ranks also gave me the free time to train 5x or more per week.  

In grappling, it is really hard for me to remember technique names...because most don't really have names...it's more like remember a whole bunch of movements, positions, and transitions in order until you get to the submission which is really the only thing that has a name.  Having a family and only training 2x per week doesn't help either.


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## RCastillo (Mar 25, 2004)

I've learned them all (Techniques, katas, according to the requirements set at the Tracy site), and if a nobody like me can do it, you can too. For me, it's been scary, cause the higher katas seemed tough as hell, but once I get moving, I'm all right, and practically have had to teach myself pretty much all the way due to distance problems.  My testings were done both on video, and in person. As time has gone on, I've had many look at me,(Including Master AL)  to correct, and polish me up so I ended up ok. Alot to work on, but I feel ok with it.

Respects :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 25, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> I've learned them all (Techniques, katas, according to the requirements set at the Tracy site), and if a nobody like me can do it, you can too. For me, it's been scary, cause the higher katas seemed tough as hell, but once I get moving, I'm all right, and practically have had to teach myself pretty much all the way due to distance problems. My testings were done both on video, and in person. As time has gone on, I've had many look at me,(Including Master AL) to correct, and polish me up so I ended up ok. Alot to work on, but I feel ok with it.
> 
> Respects :asian:


I had to have/make a cheat sheet of all the techniques, and what they were against. My own pea-little brain could remember what to do about a right overhead club attack, but not against whatever acu-title it was given at each level.  The kenpo forms I learned were often repeated, with minor variations to drill things that might have otherwise gone undrilled (i.e., SF1, Dble Parries). As long as the thing was in plain english, or I could remember my flash cards about what "thundering the peaches winging leaves" was, then I'd be OK.

Even today, people will ask "what about [insert technique name here]"...and you can see the non-comprehensive drool drip from the corner of my mouth.  But if you say "the green belt technique against a side tackle", the lights noticeably come on.  Have made sure all the technique cards for my own classes have the name of the SD tek, with what it's for in italicized parentheses next to it.  Think I just fragged those neuronal connections by landing on my head too many times, or being choked out too much (never did know when to tap...not a macho thing, just always seem to think I have more time to struggle).

Namaste!

Dr. Dave


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## 8253 (Mar 26, 2004)

thats odd, we had about 700 at 1st brown


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## marshallbd (Mar 26, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> The KenpoNet archives have an interesting page matching Tracy technique names to Parker technique names.  Pretty valuable tool for Kenpoists.


I'm not familiar with the "Kenponet"  where do I find it?  www.Kenponet.com? :asian:


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## marshallbd (Mar 26, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> thats odd, we had about 700 at 1st brown


In Tracy's or Epak or something different?


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## marshallbd (Mar 26, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> I've learned them all (Techniques, katas, according to the requirements set at the Tracy site), and if a nobody like me can do it, you can too. For me, it's been scary, cause the higher katas seemed tough as hell, but once I get moving, I'm all right, and practically have had to teach myself pretty much all the way due to distance problems.  My testings were done both on video, and in person. As time has gone on, I've had many look at me,(Including Master AL)  to correct, and polish me up so I ended up ok. Alot to work on, but I feel ok with it.
> 
> Respects :asian:


Thanks for your vote of confidence.....It sure does look scary all of those Techs to learn but I'm game to give it a go ......
Seig, I hope you're a patient man, because I aint kiddin, I'm a "SLOW" learner. :asian:


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