# KARATE'S RISING BLOCK & BOXING BY Terrible Tim 2X Heavyweight Boxing Champion of the World



## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 10, 2022)




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## wckf92 (Sep 10, 2022)

Was this karate video posted incorrectly here, in the wing chun forum?


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 10, 2022)

Use that rising block as a forearm strike and you'll get more mileage from it as an offensive weapon. Use it to strike into the nose or under the chin. Use it against people who like to tuck the chin and you'll smash them in the face. It's excellent for close range fighting. I wish I could find my old sparring on VHS.  The one thing you have to keep in mind with martial arts is that blocks can often be used as strike.  If my memory is correct, boxers also use the fore arm in a similar manner to push fighters heads back.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 10, 2022)

Tim, it's likely you have a bit more boxing skill than I , but I want to respectfully comment from a karate perspective.

I think the upward block and the move you described are somewhat two different things.  If I'm interpreting your movement correctly, you are demonstrating a "cover" meant to absorb the punch.  It serves its purpose by just being there, static, in place.  I'm sure you have used this to great effectiveness in the ring during your very distinguished career.

A karate block serves its purpose by being in motion, intercepting the punch and ideally angled to deflect it.  And then it may be further extended towards the opponent to strike his face with the forearm (or even fist) as suggested in the above post.

From my perspective, covering is more effective when using boxing gloves.  Bareknuckle or MMA type gloves, being smaller, can more easily thread the needle to pass thru such covering to hit the target.  Accordingly, a more proactive defensive approach is useful.

Also, the karate block provides a better opportunity to then grab the punching arm and control it to facilitate your counter.  This, of course, is not practical in boxing, illustrating some of the differences in the two sports.

Always great to see you on the forum.  Oh, and BTW, you can post wherever you want .


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 11, 2022)

wckf92 said:


> Was this karate video posted incorrectly here, in the wing chun forum?


Yes it was


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## Ivan (Sep 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Use that rising block as a forearm strike and you'll get more mileage from it as an offensive weapon. Use it to strike into the nose or under the chin. Use it against people who like to tuck the chin and you'll smash them in the face. It's excellent for close range fighting. I wish I could find my old sparring on VHS.  The one thing you have to keep in mind with martial arts is that blocks can often be used as strike.  If my memory is correct, boxers also use the fore arm in a similar manner to push fighters heads back.


I believe there was an old saying, that karate has no blocks, and that all it's blocking techniques should be used as strikes, whether it be in close quarters grappling, or striking at an opponent's limbs when they attempt to engage.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2022)

Ivan said:


> I believe there was an old saying, that karate has no blocks, and that all it's blocking techniques should be used as strikes, whether it be in close quarters grappling, or striking at an opponent's limbs when they attempt to engage.


 In fighting, your goal is to hurt your opponent. The only way you can do that is to make physical contact and your opponent will try to avoid your efforts to physically make contact.  So your opponent makes your job easier by hitting you.  So instead of trying to avoid your opponent's contact, you should punish him when he makes contact since he's so willing to do it..   

In most striking sports the body and head are the prize target.  The concept that you mention highlights the 3rd target that most ignore. The limbs of the body (legs and arms) but more specifically the arms.  Think of it this way, when a Muay Thai fighter attacks the legs, he's opponent will be greatly affected by it.  After enough damage the opponent will no longer be able to fight.  How quickly this occurs depends on the conditioning of that persons legs.  That same reality exists for the arms. When your opponent strikes with their hands, then punish their arms, if you get good at it, then your opponent will no longer want to punch you and will no longer be able to fight.

Physically it's easier to attack the limbs, than the body or head.  Your opponent will willingly give you his legs and arms for you to damage. Be good at those 2 things and you'll almost be unstoppable.  If you ever meet someone with that ability then you should spar with them, so you can see first hand what that is like.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Physically it's easier to attack the limbs, than the body or head.


This is why I don't like the term "block". 

When your oponent uses straight punch at you, you use hook punch to attack him. You use the inside of your arm (the sharp bone) to cut into his punching arm. 

Your opponent attacks you. You attack him. You don't play defense. You play 100% offense.


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## jks9199 (Sep 11, 2022)

MODERATION NOTE:

This thread was relocated to the Boxing/Kickboxing forum as being more appropriate for the post.  My apologies for not getting the note posted when the move was made.

jks9199
MT Administrator


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 11, 2022)

Picture above: This would be similar to how martial arts would use the rising forearm. The picture here shows may weather doing a rising forearm and then delivering a body shot underneath. Both above and below.





This is an example of smashing the forearm into the the opponent.





Example of getting the forearm under the chin.  You want to use forward movement and not rotating movement.  Rotating will take the forearm out of position and free your opponent.  Move foreward and it will push your opponents head backwards. Below is from Muay Thai.




The rising block is also good against circular fighting systems that have circular vertical strikes that target the top of the head.  A lot of the strikes in Martial Arts are illegal in boxing and other combat sports.  For example, downward strikes to the top of the head are illegal because the impact compresses the the bones in the neck. More specifically the disc in between the bones.  For me being a kung fu practitioner gloves get in the way and fills space that other wise wouldn't be there, so boxers can do blocks that work with gloves on, but not so well with gloves off.


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Use that rising block as a forearm strike and you'll get more mileage from it as an offensive weapon. Use it to strike into the nose or under the chin. Use it against people who like to tuck the chin and you'll smash them in the face. It's excellent for close range fighting. I wish I could find my old sparring on VHS.  The one thing you have to keep in mind with martial arts is that blocks can often be used as strike.  If my memory is correct, boxers also use the fore arm in a similar manner to push fighters heads back.


Wow i see exactly what you mean! Can be quite devastating!


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> View attachment 28865
> 
> View attachment 28866
> 
> ...


Awesome examples here!


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I don't like the term "block".
> 
> When your oponent uses straight punch at you, you use hook punch to attack him. You use the inside of your arm (the sharp bone) to cut into his punching arm.
> 
> Your opponent attacks you. You attack him. You don't play defense. You play 100% offense.


Do you have some examples to post? I would be interested in seeing how this is done. Thank you!


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

Ivan said:


> I believe there was an old saying, that karate has no blocks, and that all it's blocking techniques should be used as strikes, whether it be in close quarters grappling, or striking at an opponent's limbs when they attempt to engage.


I have also heard this


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> Do you have some examples to post? I would be interested in seeing how this is done. Thank you!


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Tim, it's likely you have a bit more boxing skill than I , but I want to respectfully comment from a karate perspective.
> 
> I think the upward block and the move you described are somewhat two different things.  If I'm interpreting your movement correctly, you are demonstrating a "cover" meant to absorb the punch.  It serves its purpose by just being there, static, in place.  I'm sure you have used this to great effectiveness in the ring during your very distinguished career.
> 
> ...


 I have used that block in a similar way as a rising block, but yes primarily it is a covering block. I would be curious to see a Karateka try it in the way I suggest and as a deflecting block. It would be an interesting feedback video. Again, I don't want to offend any Karate practitioners but thought it would be an interesting conversation.


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 12, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> I don't want to offend any Karate practitioners but thought it would be an interesting conversation.


Using your move as a deflecting block may be similar to _bong sao, _a technique found in Wing Chun and perhaps Filipino fighting arts. 

As a Master level "black belt" in your fighting art, your contributions should always be appreciated.  Don't worry about offending anyone - we're used to it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 12, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> I have used that block in a similar way as a rising block, but yes primarily it is a covering block. I would be curious to see a Karateka try it in the way I suggest and as a deflecting block. It would be an interesting feedback video. Again, I don't want to offend any Karate practitioners but thought it would be an interesting conversation.


Lol we are a tough bunch. Don't worry agni offending us.  You make it clear about how you are exploring other systems.   The fact that you see value and interest in exploring some of what we do makes some of us happy. This is especially true since some think that what we train is out of date.  You actually honor some of us because you try to analyze what you see and not just blow us off as irrelevant to "modern fighting."  At least that's how I feel.

I don't know anyone here who doesn't like sharing their martial arts knowledge to people who are honestly exploring it.


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


Great nice example! Thank you for sharing!


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol we are a tough bunch. Don't worry agni offending us.  You make it clear about how you are exploring other systems.   The fact that you see value and interest in exploring some of what we do makes some of us happy. This is especially true since some think that what we train is out of date.  You actually honor some of us because you try to analyze what you see and not just blow us off as irrelevant to "modern fighting."  At least that's how I feel.
> 
> I don't know anyone here who doesn't like sharing their martial arts knowledge to people who are honestly exploring it.


I like comparing the arts. There is much I can learn from all of you. I really like the discussions and comparing our notes. Here is a heads up, I am going to be learning Chi Sao from a very well known Wing Chun master. This should be interesting. Then there is an extremely popular Karate Youtuber that is going to teach me how to break broads. I look forward to doing these videos.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2022)

Terrible Tim Witherspoon said:


> I really like the discussions and comparing our notes.



Hey Tim, good to see you back!

Just a reminder if you have time in your schedule ... some months back you posted an AMA thread. A number of us posted questions for you, but I think you must have gotten busy and forgotten to come back and answer any of them.

The thread is here. If you're still up for it, I know we'd love to see your responses.


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## Terrible Tim Witherspoon (Sep 13, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hey Tim, good to see you back!
> 
> Just a reminder if you have time in your schedule ... some months back you posted an AMA thread. A number of us posted questions for you, but I think you must have gotten busy and forgotten to come back and answer any of them.
> 
> The thread is here. If you're still up for it, I know we'd love to see your responses.


Sorry about that! I will answer them today! Got sidetracked training some fighters and got away from the online world. Now I am going to be fully focused on building my online presence. Thank you for reminding me!


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## Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers (Sep 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> In fighting, your goal is to hurt your opponent.



That's a primitive approach, both ethically and pragmatically, IMO.

If an animal fights, it is either for its own gain (food, access to mating pool) or its own survival. Neither of those goals is to hurt the other creature(s), except as one possible means to a specific end. Thus it will often do things that do NOT involve harm to another creature(s), such as standing off, flight, causing confusion by various means, shock, and repulsion to discourage or distance itself from danger. If they catch prey, it is not to make them suffer, but to achieve and maintain possession so they may ingest it. In either case, it is about control.

If one thinks of harm as a goal rather than ONE option of means toward a necessary end, they are worse than an animal. And if they can't control, repel, or evade an opponent without harming them, they have a very limited martial skills set.

I have always taught that it takes little skill to hurt or even kill someone. It takes much more to not need to harm them.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2022)

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers said:


> If an animal fights, it is either for its own gain (food, access to mating pool) or its own survival. Neither of those goals is to hurt the other creature(s), except as one possible means to a specific end.


I can show you exceptions to this in chimpanzees.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2022)

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers said:


> If they catch prey, it is not to make them suffer, but to achieve and maintain possession so they may ingest it.


You should look at what killer whales some times do with their pretty.  Domestic cats will do the sand with miceand won't even eat it.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> You should look at what killer whales some times do with their pretty.  Domestic cats will do the sand with miceand won't even eat it.


There's at least one recorded case out there of a 7 Legged octopus grabbing and using a powerful stinging mauve jellyfish as a defensive shield weapon.  Wonder what went through its mind (octopus has neurons in those tentacles).

It's hard to know what animals really think, which is why watching them is insightful.

Scientists just discovered that dogs actually cry tears when they see their owners.  So if dogs can get happy tears, you have to wonder what animals think when they hunt.

Crocodiles and alligators look really mean.  Maybe they are on the inside.  Don't want to ever find out.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 13, 2022)

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers said:


> If one thinks of harm as a goal rather than ONE option of means toward a necessary end, they are worse than an animal.


If it's an option then it can be a goal.  Just because you have one goal doesn't mean you can't have multiple goals.  Martial arts techniques hurt for a reason.   If in attacking you and you cannot hurt me then what will stop my attack?  

I guess I'll be worst than an animal because eye pokes and joint breaks weren't designed to make may attacker feel warm and fuzzy inside.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 13, 2022)

I always find it interesting when people who don't understand karate techniques have a lot to say about what's wrong with them.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There's at least one recorded case out there of a 7 Legged octopus grabbing and using a powerful stinging mauve jellyfish as a defensive shield weapon.  Wonder what went through its mind (octopus has neurons in those tentacles).
> 
> It's hard to know what animals really think, which is why watching them is insightful.
> 
> ...


I had apersonal experience while trying to get a spider to eat an ant. I watched the spider make a decision between the two ants. It had 2 choices. Attack the healthy ant or attack the wounded at. At first it looked at the healthy ant, then it looked at the wounded ant. It did this twice in an indecisive manner as if it was sure of which on to go for.  After about 10 seconds it made up it's mind and went for the weak ant and ignored the other.  The spider didn't act in an extinction manner.  It moved as if it was confused and trying to work things out.  I had a hunting dog that would catch and kills birds for the fun of it.  She was really good at it. I think that age was probably baiting the birds because the birds would often fly into the fenced area where the dogs were.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 17, 2022)

toliktolik said:


> hello.maybe a stupid question but anyway I’ll ask if there are fans of Conor McGregor and MMA in general here?


Wondering where this is going.


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## Buka (Sep 17, 2022)

toliktolik said:


> hello.maybe a stupid question but anyway I’ll ask if there are fans of Conor McGregor and MMA in general here?


Welcome to MartialTalk, toliktolik, hope you enjoy it here.

I'm a fan of MMA as well as a fan of Martial Arts in general.

I enjoy watching McGregor's matches, most were quite entertaining. The man sure does know the fight business, that's for sure.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 18, 2022)

toliktolik said:


> hello.maybe a stupid question but anyway I’ll ask if there are fans of Conor McGregor and MMA in general here?


These are two very different questions. I'm a fan of MMA. I'm not a fan of Conor McGregor.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 18, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> These are two very different questions. I'm a fan of MMA. I'm not a fan of Conor McGregor.


He executed a an almost perfect Tai Chi style attack in one fight, and used it to pummel to KO.  Shoulder strike to stun, follow by a wave of fists.  I'll look it up.

Nasty.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers said:


> That's a primitive approach, both ethically and pragmatically, IMO.
> 
> If an animal fights, it is either for its own gain (food, access to mating pool) or its own survival. Neither of those goals is to hurt the other creature(s), except as one possible means to a specific end. Thus it will often do things that do NOT involve harm to another creature(s), such as standing off, flight, causing confusion by various means, shock, and repulsion to discourage or distance itself from danger. If they catch prey, it is not to make them suffer, but to achieve and maintain possession so they may ingest it. In either case, it is about control.
> 
> ...


You need to do some research on primate behavior to start. Then, take a look at some Mustelidae members. I can give you some good examples if you would like.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There's at least one recorded case out there of a 7 Legged octopus grabbing and using a powerful stinging mauve jellyfish as a defensive shield weapon.  Wonder what went through its mind (octopus has neurons in those tentacles).
> 
> It's hard to know what animals really think, which is why watching them is insightful.
> 
> ...


If you are inside the Croc you already found out. Alligators can be be quite gentle as long as you don’t give wrong cues. Similarly, Lions will often ignore people unless they limp.


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## Oily Dragon (Sep 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> If you are inside the Croc you already found out. Alligators can be be quite gentle as long as you don’t give wrong cues. Similarly, Lions will often ignore people unless they limp.


Great film, The Ghost and the Darkness.  Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas.

Do you know of the Tsavo Man Eaters?









						Tsavo Man-Eaters - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Great film, The Ghost and the Darkness.  Val Kilmer and Michael Douglas.
> 
> Do you know of the Tsavo Man Eaters?
> 
> ...


A rare event. I was actually talking about captive lions that I worked with, though I did not state that important detail. Initially, no one realized that it was two lions rather than one. Those two lions were very likely brothers. The most interesting fact about it in my opinion was the completely different methods those two lions used. They were credited with over 135 kills combined. I believe this number is somewhat exaggerated, but it was certainly dozens at the very least. Most of the kills by one lion happened at night and without attracting notice. By contrast, the other lion boldly charged into groups of daytime workers, sometimes killing several in one attack. Usually lions at rest will just plain ignore most movement, feign a bad limp and you will most certainly pique their interest. It is their job to deal with the infirm after all.


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## Buka (Sep 20, 2022)

I've seen lions in the wild. Scary looking cats, made me uncomfortable.

Sure glad I wasn't limping. :0


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