# credible certification



## Runs With Fire (Jan 11, 2017)

As far as a "self defense program",  what reputable institutions offer instructors, certifications which are considered legitimate and respectable in the martial artists community?


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## Dylan9d (Jan 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> As far as a "self defense program",  what reputable institutions offer instructors, certifications which are considered legitimate and respectable in the martial artists community?



For me personally it's the certifications you need to work for, so not the well known Krav Maga 180 hour programs.

For me an instructor is a practitioner that practised a Martial Art for a very long time (like years), not someone that decided 180 hours ago they wanted to be a certified instructor....


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## JR 137 (Jan 11, 2017)

Police departments.  I'm not sure what other government run law enforcement agencies offer self defense seminars, but if the FBI, CIA, Army, et. al. offers self defense seminars, I'd suggest those too.  Law enforcement agencies go with statistical research and facts.  Are they fool proof and perfect? Probably not.  Are they going by the seat of their pants?  I'd be willing to bet a lot of money they're not.

Certifications are only as credible as the issuer.  If you trust that issuer, there's no problem.  If you don't know or don't trust the issuer, the certification should be meaningless.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2017)

Given that martial arts in the US have no governmental oversight, and any organizations that do exist are attempts at self-governance which nobody has any obligation to accept, the answer is none.

That doesn't mean that there are no good programs that people are offering.  But they would need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and often boil down to how effective a particular instructor is.  You will not find any programs that are universally recognized and respected by all or many or some people in the martial arts.


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## MI_martialist (Jan 11, 2017)

www.us-mta.com


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## jks9199 (Jan 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> As far as a "self defense program",  what reputable institutions offer instructors, certifications which are considered legitimate and respectable in the martial artists community?


Not quite sure what you're looking for.  

There are a number of programs available if you want to become a "self defense instructor" apart from actual martial arts training.  One example is R.A.D. which is used by a number of police departments to provide self defense classes to the public.  There are other, similar programs out there, but I'm personally familiar with R.A.D.  They teach a solid basic self defense curriculum that can be learned and retained fairly easily.

If you're looking for something you can take to be more effective...  Well, there are tons of options out there.


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## Juany118 (Jan 11, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Given that martial arts in the US have no governmental oversight, and any organizations that do exist are attempts at self-governance which nobody has any obligation to accept, the answer is none.
> 
> That doesn't mean that there are no good programs that people are offering.  But they would need to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and often boil down to how effective a particular instructor is.  You will not find any programs that are universally recognized and respected by all or many or some people in the martial arts.




The first part is kinda right, kinda not.  Let me explain.  Government Agencies such as State Agencies, DoJ and DoD will certify people, based on objective criteria, as SMEs aka "Subject Matter Experts." These are the people they will often give the contracts to for teaching members of various agencies, @ the Navy Advanced Warfare Center etc.

Then you have Nationally recognized organizations like the NTOA (National Tactical Officers Association) that act as a filter.

Most, if not all, of the "bonafides" I listed will also certify the person as an expert witness in terms of Court Testimony as well.  So if I was just looking for a self defense instructor I would look at their resume.  If they have an SME tag or a record of training others under the umbrella of one of the Organization's that establishes National Standard for Government Special Operators, I would say that is a better gauge than looking at the specific system they teach.  Example, my Sifu's Sifu is an SME for HIDTA, the US Navy Special Warfare Command and others.  Now he doesn't teach unadulterated WC there, it would take too long to build the skill set.  However he has the knowledge of WC, and other arts, to pass on an effective combatives system to students in the organization's he has taught, even including firearms as needed as well since he is also an SME in CQB.
Those qualifications are the most important, imo.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 12, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The first part is kinda right, kinda not.  Let me explain.  Government Agencies such as State Agencies, DoJ and DoD will certify people, based on objective criteria, as SMEs aka "Subject Matter Experts." These are the people they will often give the contracts to for teaching members of various agencies, @ the Navy Advanced Warfare Center etc.
> 
> Then you have Nationally recognized organizations like the NTOA (National Tactical Officers Association) that act as a filter.
> 
> ...


Interesting. What sort of objective criteria do these agencies look at when certifying individuals as SMEs?


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## Juany118 (Jan 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. What sort of objective criteria do these agencies look at when certifying individuals as SMEs?



Not 100% sure at that level.  My Sifu, and his Sifu, are both SME's, for the DoJ and a couple States.  His Sifu actually just got his SME from the US Navy Advanced Warfare Command as a matter of fact (has had one with DoJ, USMC and SOCOM for a bit though).  I will ask my Sifu at the next class for the details on what it takes.  That said...

I would expect part of it is "Training and Experience." As an example my Sifu's Sifu can say he is a private student of Sigung Cheung and the head of the TWC organization in the US.  Sigung Cheung was the chief Martial Arts instructor for the 7th Fleet from 78-80 and since 79 he, and some of his personal students started teaching LE.  First in Australia then outside Australia.  Then he can point to personally teaching period for decades and being the VP of Personal Protection and Tactical Training for a consultancy.  Among other things he and my Sifu did the security audit of, and the redesign of security methods, for the House of Blues company.  Resumes mean a lot.  Document the training and experience and the times said was successful.  After that there is usually a required testing of knowledge. 

I am guessing the above because it is what I am familiar with on the "intellectual" side because at the State Level I used to be an "Expert" in the field of Narcotics Investigations.  I stepped away from the Specialty unit that allowed me to "stay in practice" so I would have to brush up on current pricing, concealment tactics etc to be an expert beyond local court again.  I mentioned this last bit because you can lose the status.  Don't keep up with training, make obvious mistakes when acting as an SME and you lose it.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 12, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> The first part is kinda right, kinda not.  Let me explain.  Government Agencies such as State Agencies, DoJ and DoD will certify people, based on objective criteria, as SMEs aka "Subject Matter Experts." These are the people they will often give the contracts to for teaching members of various agencies, @ the Navy Advanced Warfare Center etc.
> 
> Then you have Nationally recognized organizations like the NTOA (National Tactical Officers Association) that act as a filter.
> 
> ...


Oh, I am sure the government has their credential issues for this, in terms of who is allowed to officially teach law enforcement and military and intelligence members, that isn't surprising.

But for a random Joe Civillian who is looking for a self-defense course or martial arts instruction, who probably does not have access to people ivolved with the government programs and who is probably looking at the various martial arts instructors located within a 20 mile radius of his home or workplace, I think my comments are quite accurate.  The government does not regulate or license martial arts schools or self defense schools for public consumption. So any certifications or "licensing" are self-created and only regulate an organization for itself, not as any kind of objective and official credentiallying, and in no way guarantees quality of one sort or another.

Caveate emptor, the student needs to do a bit of research on the instructor and then make an evaluation and a decision about what he wants to go to.

Basing such a decision on whether or not the instructor holds some kind of certification issued by the government to teach government agents, will probably eliminate the vast majority of instructors from the running.  I would hazard a guess that by far, most instructors do not have such certification.

That was my read on the question in the OP.  if I have misunderstood the initial question, maybe the OP can clarify.


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## wingchun100 (Jan 12, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Not 100% sure at that level.  My Sifu, and his Sifu, are both SME's, for the DoJ and a couple States.  His Sifu actually just got his SME from the US Navy Advanced Warfare Command as a matter of fact (has had one with DoJ, USMC and SOCOM for a bit though).  I will ask my Sifu at the next class for the details on what it takes.  That said...
> 
> I would expect part of it is "Training and Experience." As an example my Sifu's Sifu can say he is a private student of Sigung Cheung and the head of the TWC organization in the US.  Sigung Cheung was the chief Martial Arts instructor for the 7th Fleet from 78-80 and since 79 he, and some of his personal students started teaching LE.  First in Australia then outside Australia.  Then he can point to personally teaching period for decades and being the VP of Personal Protection and Tactical Training for a consultancy.  Among other things he and my Sifu did the security audit of, and the redesign of security methods, for the House of Blues company.  Resumes mean a lot.  Document the training and experience and the times said was successful.  After that there is usually a required testing of knowledge.
> 
> I am guessing the above because it is what I am familiar with on the "intellectual" side because at the State Level I used to be an "Expert" in the field of Narcotics Investigations.  I stepped away from the Specialty unit that allowed me to "stay in practice" so I would have to brush up on current pricing, concealment tactics etc to be an expert beyond local court again.  I mentioned this last bit because you can lose the status.  Don't keep up with training, make obvious mistakes when acting as an SME and you lose it.


 
I had a question for you about this, although it involves something I am not ready to discuss openly on the boards. Watch for a PM.


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## Paul_D (Jan 12, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> For me personally it's the certifications you need to work for, so not the well known Krav Maga 180 hour programs.
> 
> For me an instructor is a practitioner that practised a Martial Art for a very long time (like years), not someone that decided 180 hours ago they wanted to be a certified instructor....


The majority of self defence skills are not martial in nature, and martial arts instructors in my experience generally make very poor self defence instructors as they, for the most part, only posses the physical skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 12, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> The majority of self defence skills are not martial in nature, and martial arts instructors in my experience generally make very poor self defence instructors as they, for the most part, only posses the physical skills.


Here we go again...


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 12, 2017)

That's pretty good.


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## Tames D (Jan 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Here we go again...


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## Juany118 (Jan 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh, I am sure the government has their credential issues for this, in terms of who is allowed to officially teach law enforcement and military and intelligence members, that isn't surprising.
> 
> But for a random Joe Civillian who is looking for a self-defense course or martial arts instruction, who probably does not have access to people ivolved with the government programs and who is probably looking at the various martial arts instructors located within a 20 mile radius of his home or workplace, I think my comments are quite accurate.  The government does not regulate or license martial arts schools or self defense schools for public consumption. So any certifications or "licensing" are self-created and only regulate an organization for itself, not as any kind of objective and official credentiallying, and in no way guarantees quality of one sort or another.
> 
> ...



Thing is you can have access to these people.  Example, my Sifu and his each hold "open" Seminars regularly at their respective schools.  My school hosted a "Active Shooter" for Civilians seminar a couple months ago.  The mother school in he near future is hosting a "Street Survival" Seminar that will cover things like situation specific postures based on ranges of attack and how to identify the ranges, proper scanning of your environment to prevent and address the attack if it comes, how to look for weapons of opportunity etc.

These SME's have day jobs.  Yes, some are active in the LE community, a surprising number however are in the Private Sector and do training for Civilians.


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## Dylan9d (Jan 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> The majority of self defence skills are not martial in nature, and martial arts instructors in my experience generally make very poor self defence instructors as they, for the most part, only posses the physical skills.



Sorry but this statement is the biggest jibberish I have ever seen in the 25 years I'm involved in martial arts.

You are most likely a Krav Maga or Systema instructor?


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## Runs With Fire (Jan 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> But for a random Joe Civillian who is looking for a self-defense course or martial arts instruction, who probably does not have access to people ivolved with the government programs and who is probably looking at the various martial arts instructors located within a 20 mile radius of his home or workplace, I think my comments are quite accurate.  The government does not regulate or license martial arts schools or self defense schools for public consumption. So any certifications or "licensing" are self-created and only regulate an organization for itself, not as any kind of objective and official credentiallying, and in no way guarantees quality of one sort or another.
> 
> Caveate emptor, the student needs to do a bit of research on the instructor and then make an evaluation and a decision about what he wants to go to.
> 
> .


  Sounds about right.  A good certification or set of issued credentials just means somebody with a name, or orginization, thinks you can do the job.  It's not necessarily much of a factor for the average person, but it is a good part of a strong resume.   most certifications are quite simple and easy yo get; Show me what you can do, or, Take a quick study and pass a test, there you go.  
       Myself,  I am a certified black belt in tang soo do and tae kwon do.   Most who are into continuous training in a self defense,  street smart way are wary of that for good reason.  I have a training certificate in a hybrid defense system.   I am cerified as a krav maga instructor from an (small but solid) affiliated group.  Looking into the potential of starting a local group myself,  way out here in the boondocks,  I think a basic certification from a group big enough to look more legitimate to any average redneck,  like myself, could be handy.  Certification doesn't mean beans as far as what an instructor can actually teach.  It just looks better.  Then, there is the opportunity of additional training that often will come as a prerequisite of some certification.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Thing is you can have access to these people.  Example, my Sifu and his each hold "open" Seminars regularly at their respective schools.  My school hosted a "Active Shooter" for Civilians seminar a couple months ago.  The mother school in he near future is hosting a "Street Survival" Seminar that will cover things like situation specific postures based on ranges of attack and how to identify the ranges, proper scanning of your environment to prevent and address the attack if it comes, how to look for weapons of opportunity etc.
> 
> These SME's have day jobs.  Yes, some are active in the LE community, a surprising number however are in the Private Sector and do training for Civilians.


Yes, you can have access to them, but most people don't, and it doesn't matter.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Sounds about right.  A good certification or set of issued credentials just means somebody with a name, or orginization, thinks you can do the job.  It's not necessarily much of a factor for the average person, but it is a good part of a strong resume.   most certifications are quite simple and easy yo get; Show me what you can do, or, Take a quick study and pass a test, there you go.
> Myself,  I am a certified black belt in tang soo do and tae kwon do.   Most who are into continuous training in a self defense,  street smart way are wary of that for good reason.  I have a training certificate in a hybrid defense system.   I am cerified as a krav maga instructor from an (small but solid) affiliated group.  Looking into the potential of starting a local group myself,  way out here in the boondocks,  I think a basic certification from a group big enough to look more legitimate to any average redneck,  like myself, could be handy.  Certification doesn't mean beans as far as what an instructor can actually teach.  It just looks better.  Then, there is the opportunity of additional training that often will come as a prerequisite of some certification.


Sure, and being connected to a larger organization can be useful, or not.  I don't think anything is universally respected or revered.  Honestly, there are too many of them out there for most of us to even know what they are.  But if there is an organization that feels solid to you, and it might help you in building your club, then go for it.


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## Juany118 (Jan 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, you can have access to them, but most people don't, and it doesn't matter.


It does matter though.  My "mother school" is 45 minutes away with NO traffic.  I have googled dominator trainings and they are there, admitedly if you are near a major metropolitan area.  Say 1 hour from Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix etc.

So it does indeed matter to some people.  Maybe I am being overly modest but I can't believe I managed to be born in the exact right place and found the exact right Sifu to have unique access to such generic training.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> It does matter though.  My "mother school" is 45 minutes away with NO traffic.  I have googled dominator trainings and they are there, admitedly if you are near a major metropolitan area.  Say 1 hour from Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, Phoenix etc.
> 
> So it does indeed matter to some people.  Maybe I am being overly modest but I can't believe I managed to be born in the exact right place and found the exact right Sifu to have unique access to such generic training.


I wonder if you and i are having two different discussions here.

Are you suggesting that a martial arts teacher needs to have some kind of governmental certification, or connections with a police program of some sort?

If so, are you saying this is true for every school from the Daycare Krotty to Worldchampion BJJ and MMA to Quentin Fong's White Crane Kung Fu taught in his backyard to five students?


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## Juany118 (Jan 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I wonder if you and i are having two different discussions here.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a martial arts teacher needs to have some kind of governmental certification, or connections with a police program of some sort?
> 
> If so, are you saying this is true for every school from the Daycare Krotty to Worldchampion BJJ and MMA to Quentin Fong's White Crane Kung Fu taught in his backyard to five students?


No.  You appeared to me, and maybe I was wrong, that there wasn't a National "standard" of sorts in terms of self defense training based on 





> Given that martial arts in the US have no governmental oversight



After 19 years on the job combatives and self defense are synonyms.  The OP wasn't asking about MA but self defense.  In my experience the two can be different concepts.  Based on that I was simply saying if you search you can find people who meet such a Nationally recognized standard in self defense/combatives.  If this was not your initial contention then that is my error.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 13, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> No.  You appeared to me, and maybe I was wrong, that there wasn't a National "standard" of sorts in terms of self defense training based on
> 
> After 19 years on the job combatives and self defense are synonyms.  The OP wasn't asking about MA but self defense.  In my experience the two can be different concepts.  Based on that I was simply saying if you search you can find people who meet such a Nationally recognized standard in self defense/combatives.  If this was not your initial contention then that is my error.


Ok, I think we are in the same chapter of the same book, but different page.

The OP is welcome to clarify. But I read the initial question as self-defense/martial arts, kinda lumping them together, and yes I know they are not all the same.

Martial arts as an industry for the consumer is not government regulated.  Some organizations do self-regulate, but that is private and not governmental. Yes there are some programs that elements of the government weigh in on, or even license.  Most martial arts schools do not have that kind of credential, and for whAt most of them do, it is not needed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I think we are in the same chapter of the same book, but different page.
> 
> The OP is welcome to clarify. But I read the initial question as self-defense/martial arts, kinda lumping them together, and yes I know they are not all the same.
> 
> Martial arts as an industry for the consumer is not government regulated.  Some organizations do self-regulate, but that is private and not governmental. Yes there are some programs that elements of the government weigh in on, or even license.  Most martial arts schools do not have that kind of credential, and for whAt most of them do, it is not needed.


This was kinda my read, and (without looking back) I think the OP asked about a universally-recognized certification. There are certainly some that are recognized across the US, but within a limited community. Without coming on MT and asking others, I wouldn't know if a given certification was even meaningful, much less reliably consistent. If I had the extra time and money, I'd probably pursue one or more for the marketing "oomph" for working with specific groups, but most consumers wouldn't have any recognition of it. It would be like telling a bank teller I have an MSCE certification (I don't, actually). She probably wouldn't even know what it was, and explaining it would just bore her. Telling her I can fix the database reporting issue that's causing her a problem is more effective.


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## Paul_D (Jan 13, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Sorry but this statement is the biggest jibberish I have ever seen in the 25 years I'm involved in martial arts.



There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence.  I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills.  Everyones experience is different of course.

I wouldn't train Krap Maga if you paid me, I don't know enough about systema to comment on it.


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## Dylan9d (Jan 13, 2017)

There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence.  I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills.  Everyones experience is different of course.[/QUOTE]

Everyone's experience is different of course but the fact remains that you previous statement was jibberish.


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## Paul_D (Jan 13, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Everyone's experience is different of course but the fact remains that you previous statement was jibberish


If you are not going to explain I can't discuss it futher, just saying "this is jibberish" over and over doesn't give me anything to work with I'm afraid.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 13, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> There are several stages a situation has to go through before it ends in violence, and so there are several opportnites for you to prevent it ending in violence.  I have used these skills far more often to avoid/prevent/de-escalate potentially violent situaitons becoming so, than I have had to use my phsycal skills.  Everyones experience is different of course.
> 
> I wouldn't train Krap Maga if you paid me, I don't know enough about systema to comment on it.


And you should be aware by now, from the several discussions you've participated in, that many of us use the term "self-defense" to cover the physical defensive portion. Those other skills you mention are not, in my vernacular, "self-defense". And even if we include them, it has been discussed many times that those skills are enhanced by confidence, self-esteem, and other factors that are developed in physical self-defense classes.

You seem to like lumping all "self-defense" instructors into a single batch. That would be like lumping all "teachers" into one batch - they have a lot of different skills, education, and experience.


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## Paul_D (Jan 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to like lumping all "self-defense" instructors into a single batch. That would be like lumping all "teachers" into one batch - they have a lot of different skills, education, and experience.


Not at all, I did say "in my experience".  I am commenting only on the instructors I have come accross on the self defence courses I have attended. 
.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 14, 2017)

my take on the OP was that he was asking about common martial arts classes and instructors that hold self defense classes.   


Juany118 said:


> Government Agencies such as State Agencies, DoJ and DoD will certify people, based on objective criteria, as SMEs aka "Subject Matter Experts." These are the people they will often give the contracts to for teaching members of various agencies, @ the Navy Advanced Warfare Center etc.


while an SME could be a good indicator i think you missed the mark.  An SME is a way to regulate and qualify experts but only within a  Government agency like those you mentioned.   i dont believe they have any actual bering on civilian operations or businesses. SME's were not designed for that purpose. if the OP was asking about SME's as they apply to those agency's he came to the wrong place to ask. he should be asking his superior.  but he is asking in a martial arts forum so we have to assume (until such time as he clarifies) what he is really asking is how to make a judgment on martial art based self defense classes,  either he has one in mind he is thinking about joining or he is wondering how to spruce up his resume.


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## Juany118 (Jan 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my take on the OP was that he was asking about common martial arts classes and instructors that hold self defense classes.
> 
> while an SME could be a good indicator i think you missed the mark.  An SME is a way to regulate and qualify experts but only within a  Government agency like those you mentioned.   i dont believe they have any actual bering on civilian operations or businesses. SME's were not designed for that purpose. if the OP was asking about SME's as they apply to those agency's he came to the wrong place to ask. he should be asking his superior.  but he is asking in a martial arts forum so we have to assume (until such time as he clarifies) what he is really asking is how to make a judgment on martial art based self defense classes,  either he has one in mind he is thinking about joining or he is wondering how to spruce up his resume.




Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts. 

First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense.  Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.

Second it about who the SMEs are with.  If you have someone who has said with different agencies, Local, State and Federal LE as well as Military that shows the have a wide experience.  As an example my Sifu's Sifu has all of the above, never wore a uniform.  His hands on experience is largely in high end security and personal protection.  

The thing for both is that you have a neutral third party with objective criteria, that is looking for the best training for their employees, vs the more typical governing body of a particular art that is as interested as getting the membership dues as they are the certificate they hand out.

In the absence of a better option it seems the only real objective standard to use.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts.
> 
> First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense.  Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but my sifu has none of that, and the instruction he gives in Kung fu is absolutely top notch.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 14, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Well there are a few things I like about SME's and as I clarified above it has to do with self defense more than martial arts.
> 
> First, if the person has SME's with a LE government agency they not only understand, in theory, what works in a rl street context, they also understand the legal issues with self defense.  Very often in a MA school the legal issues aren't addressed and that, imo is problematic.
> 
> ...


I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available.  So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap?   I don't think so.
To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France.  I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge.  And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available.  So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap?   I don't think so.
> To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France.  I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge.  And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.


I don't think he's saying it's an exclusionary criterion. He's saying it's something that could be used to identify someone as a good choice. Lack of it doesn't necessarily mean someone's a bad choice. Most of us who teach self-defense and martial arts have never had any significant interface with those groups, so their certifications wouldn't be available to us. I know of an instructor who has worked with LEO in three different states over 3 decades teaching DT in their state academies. I don't think he carries a SME designation, but I could be wrong about that.


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## Juany118 (Jan 14, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I understand what your saying and I agree that to train under someone with an SME would be great and something that would be a plus, but to use that as a defining criteria would be to discount 95%of what is available.  So is your position that anyone without an SME is teaching crap?   I don't think so.
> To use an analogy it would be like saying the only good cooks are the ones who trained classically in France.  I just don't think there is a good option or criteria to judge.  And even with such a criteria good or bad can still be subjective.


@gpseymour summed it up for me.  If you are concerned about some sort of objective qualification, it's the only one I can see as truly objective.  There are other things you can look for as well.  Most of my main Sifu's SMEs are in not MA criteria so irrelevant but I still trust him to teach me well.   I was just answering to a specific criteria.


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