# Superheroes No Longer Are Role Models??



## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2010)

Such tripe like this makes me wanna puke all over their keyboard. 



> http://movies.yahoo.com/feature/mov...roes-might-not-be-such-super-role-models.html
> What's that you say? A rogue vigilante, who dons a mask at night to  fight crime while using illegal weapons, with no endorsement from local  law enforcement authorities, may not be a good role model for young  boys?
> Incredulity aside, it turns out that even some of the "nicer"  comic-book heroes might not be so good for the kids. That's the  conclusion of a new study of current superhero movie characters   (how does one apply for this job?). The researchers behind the study  shared their findings at the American Psychological Association  convention this past Sunday. What's most surprising about the results of  the study is that it doesn't necessarily vilify all of these powerful  characters -- just modern-day superheroes. The superheroes your parents  watched and read many moons ago? Those guys were just fine.  http://www.hollywoodwiretap.com/?module=news&action=story&id=51077



Those guys who are worried about kinder, gentler boys need to just suck it up and be MEN dammit... men who fight for what they believe in, fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. To be *men* and women are damned glad of it.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 18, 2010)

MA-Caver said:


> Such tripe like this makes me wanna puke all over their keyboard.



Did you miss the contrast between modern and old superheroes?  The humanization of superheros has been ongoing for more than 20 years.  They are no longer idealistic paragons, but that does make them more interesting.  Iron Man became an alcoholic, others became nationalistic dupes, drug addicts, etc.  That does make them poorer role models though, I don't see how that is controversial.


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## CoryKS (Aug 18, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Did you miss the contrast between modern and old superheroes? The humanization of superheros has been ongoing for more than 20 years. They are no longer idealistic paragons, but that does make them more interesting. Iron Man became an alcoholic, others became nationalistic dupes, drug addicts, etc. That does make them poorer role models though, I don't see how that is controversial.


 
Because being a role model is what a hero mythology is _for_.  Otherwise, what's the point?


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## Empty Hands (Aug 18, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Because being a role model is what a hero mythology is _for_.  Otherwise, what's the point?



What I gathered Caver was saying was that it was ridiculous modern superheroes were not considered role models.


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## CoryKS (Aug 18, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> What I gathered Caver was saying was that it was ridiculous modern superheroes were not considered role models.


 
Guess I didn't see the distinction between "modern" and "old" superheroes.  The description in the article: "A rogue vigilante, who dons a mask at night to fight crime while using illegal weapons, with no endorsement from local law enforcement authorities" is a fairly accurate description of Batman from pretty much _any_ period.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 18, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Guess I didn't see the distinction between "modern" and "old" superheroes.  The description in the article: "A rogue vigilante, who dons a mask at night to fight crime while using illegal weapons, with no endorsement from local law enforcement authorities" is a fairly accurate description of Batman from pretty much _any_ period.



True, but..."What's most surprising about the results of  the study is that it  doesn't necessarily vilify all of these powerful  characters -- just  modern-day superheroes. The superheroes your parents  watched and read  many moons ago? Those guys were just fine."


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## MBuzzy (Aug 18, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Because being a role model is what a hero mythology is _for_. Otherwise, what's the point?


 
Umm, I thought that it was to entertain?


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## Shin71 (Aug 18, 2010)

Comic books got me through many a night deployed.  Superheroes are role models when you can find the right one.  Even the punisher lets you vent a little and he is as violent as you will get.


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## Omar B (Aug 18, 2010)

It's Seduction Of the Innocent all over again.  But at least then Wertham could spew his tripe over the course of a whole book rather than soem dumb article.  It's continuing in the same tradition of Wertham calling batman and Robin a homosexual wish dream, Superman a bully fantasy, comics caused juvinile delinquency, comics hid drawings of naked women in the backgrounds (as trees no less!).  Crap like that book is why Batman went wussy for like 20 years, why the comics code cut the balls off of great books for years.

Another case of alarmist BS over art.  This chick must be fun to hang around.  Can you imagine the person who hates heroes for being heroic?


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## girlbug2 (Aug 18, 2010)

Today's versions of superheroes more sarcastic? Maybe a few, Iron man case in point. OTOH, Spidey's as gentle and kind as ever in his personal life, Superman hasn't really changed from what I can see. Batman was always a dark concept, but if he's supposed to be a role model for kids, why then did they make the last 2 movies rated R?

I just don't see every superhero as necessarily meant to be a role model. There are comics meant for adults and comics meant for kids. Parents who care enough to screen what their kids watch on Tv should also be screening their kids' reading. Otherwise, don't carp about them being exposed to the inappropriate "role model."

Wait, no--that wasn't parents complaining, it was a bunch of psychologists. We're supposed to defer to their wisdom, why exactly?


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## Empty Hands (Aug 18, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Another case of alarmist BS over art.



Comics have always been a magnet for such criticism, like the codes you reference.  Maybe the association with children is enough to explain the hysteria, but it really seems deeper than that.  Comics really push the buttons of the authorities, and I'm not even sure why, since the Golden Age comics in particular clearly espoused pro-American, pro-law and order, pro-authority views.

Video games get some of the same treatment now.  The funny thing is though that now both video games and comics are primarily consumed by the 18-34 age demographic.  They really aren't "for kids", but every time a boob shows up in an M rated game, people flip the **** out.


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## Omar B (Aug 18, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> Today's versions of superheroes more sarcastic? Maybe a few, Iron man case in point. OTOH, Spidey's as gentle and kind as ever in his personal life, Superman hasn't really changed from what I can see. Batman was always a dark concept, but if he's supposed to be a role model for kids, why then did they make the last 2 movies rated R?
> I just don't see every superhero as necessarily meant to be a role model. There are comics meant for adults and comics meant for kids. Parents who care enough to screen what their kids watch on Tv should also be screening their kids' reading. Otherwise, don't carp about them being exposed to the inappropriate "role model."
> Wait, no--that wasn't parents complaining, it was a bunch of psychologists. We're supposed to defer to their wisdom, why exactly?



The last 2 Batman movies were not R, they were PG 13,  They towed the line but they were both not R.  The whole Batman thing is a great example, becasue of Wertham's book causing this whoel Batman/Robin gay thing that seems to persist even till now is the reason they added Batwoman (a character that failed first time around)... then later Batgirl.  It's also the reason Batman went from being hardcore, carrying a gun, killing the first Joker, being the "Weird creature of the night that strikes fear into criminals, a suspicious and cowardly lot," to being the guy with the bad puns.  It took till the 70's when Denny O'neil started writing for him get get his balls back.

All superheroes and in fact all comic books are not made for kids.  In fact, most comics are not for children in the least.  The Punisher, Moonknight, all the members of The authority, Wanted, Kick-***, Wolverine, The Pro (a super powered prostitute, Powers, I could go on.

Superman and Captain America will always be paragons of virtue and honesty.  But really, comics stopped being for kids a long time ago.  I remember a couple years ago when Identity Crisis came out and parents were outraged that Sue Dibney was raped by Dr Light.  As if The Joker didn't cripple and rape Batgirl in the 80's, as if murder and large scale death has not always been in comics.  Comics owe it's origins to pulp magazines and detective fiction, it's origins are in Lee Falk, Robert Howard and Mickey Spillane, not Mickey Mouse.


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## David43515 (Aug 18, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Because being a role model is what a hero mythology is _for_. Otherwise, what's the point?


 
Finally someone who gets it! Entertainment was always just the excuse. The reason we have mythic heroes has always been to teach the ideal atributes that a society wants to pass on. Honesty, courage, compassion, self-sacrifice, etc. 
As a sociology major and closet novelist, if I could thank you 10x I would. There`s a GREAT book that talks about this called "How to write a damn good novel using the power of myth". It was a text for a class I took years ago and points out lots of common themes in stories as far removed as ancient myths, Beowolf, Zorro, and James Bond.Even Harry Potter follows the same basic pattern because that`s what we want from our heroes.


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## Omar B (Aug 18, 2010)

Good call on that book David.  I would also like to point out Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With A thousand Faces."  It's one of those books that also takes apart the hero myth and shows what works and how it works.  George Lucas is one of his biggest fans, he used the myth of the unlikely hero called to action and aided by the elderly wizard for SW.  It's a theme we can all think of in other stories (Sword Of Truth, Eragon, etc).  An internal memo by Volger circulated at Disney makes the use of Campbell's book on heroes _the_ way to write for Disney.

Something I see becoming predominant in our society is the open sneer at the hero.  People diminish Superman and call him a boyscout, dated, old fashioned.  What is bad about being honest, honorable, virtuous and good?  Is it so hard to accept someone who is good no matter what?  Do people see Superman as an affront to them when they should be seeing him as inspiration? 

Captain America gets little respect either, he stands for all that is good about this country and it's constitution, yet people miss that fact and see him as simply a tool of the government when he has openly defied the government on things he does not believe in, he gave up the mantle of Cap once for it (when he took the name Nomad) and he even died for it when our civil liberties were being infringed upon.  He has openly invoked the Right Of Revolution, as recently as Marvel's Civil War event (when he was killed btw).

How can this woman stand there and see virtue, see man standing up for what is right and openly call it bad for the kids?


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## MA-Caver (Aug 18, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Good call on that book David.  I would also like to point out Joseph Campbell's "The Hero With A thousand Faces."  It's one of those books that also takes apart the hero myth and shows what works and how it works.  George Lucas is one of his biggest fans, he used the myth of the unlikely hero called to action and aided by the elderly wizard for SW.


Well Lucas just took one man's idea and called it his own. That is one myth that he wrote/created Star Wars initially that I will never call is truth. Great director, visionary and being able to expand upon another's idea he may be but author and creator of the Star Wars uhh, NOPE!
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Alan_Dean_Foster

Great myths are how we envision what we SHOULD do when faced with certain situations. The old Greek myths and monsters were metaphors of the trials in our day to day lives. I once had a tarot reading and was told that I needed to "slay the dragon". Of course it was the things that were holding me back and things that I was afraid of that I needed to overcome. Same concept. 

Jokers, Lex Luthors, Doctor Octopus', Ultrons, etc. et. al are our own ideas of the day to day obstacles and obtrusive people in our lives. Comic book heroes give us an idea of how to defeat them. It's not WHAT or specifically HOW the heroes defeated those villains but the how and why they did it. Like Hurcules needing that kid's help to defeat the hydra, showing that we can't necessarily defeat/overcome our problems by ourselves that it's good to call upon friends to help. 


Having CB heroes having weaknesses, i.e. alcoholism or whatever ism brings them that much closer to home and allowing us to relate to them better. 


or something like that


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## Omar B (Aug 18, 2010)

Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization of A New Hope, he had nothing to do with the initial concept.  The novelization was an expansion of the screenplay that George wrote.  Don't mix up novelization author and original screenplay/conception.  Foster's been doing novelizations based upon screen plays for years, in fact he's written in my opinion the worst one ever, Transformers revenge Of The Fallen.  Oh, and his own original works (Pip and Flinx series) is pretty dismal too.


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## CoryKS (Aug 18, 2010)

David43515 said:


> There`s a GREAT book that talks about this called "How to write a damn good novel using the power of myth". It was a text for a class I took years ago and points out lots of common themes in stories as far removed as ancient myths, Beowolf, Zorro, and James Bond.Even Harry Potter follows the same basic pattern because that`s what we want from our heroes.


 
Thanks for the recommendation, it's on my list now along with the Campbell book that Omar mentioned.  I'm somewhat familiar with that book, but the one you mentioned is new to me.


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## Msby (Aug 19, 2010)

The "hero's journey" idea by Joseph Campbell is a great one, and it applies to most of our favorite stories! 
Take this image and substitute phrases with some movies/books you can think of...


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## Empty Hands (Aug 19, 2010)

Omar B said:


> People diminish Superman and call him a boyscout, dated, old fashioned.  What is bad about being honest, honorable, virtuous and good?  Is it so hard to accept someone who is good no matter what?



Because it is even less real than superheroes.  It also diminishes the actual struggle we all go through to do good.  Superman does not have to try to be good, he simply is.  What sort of role model is that, really?  We will all be less than honorable, we will all be tempted.  Who makes a better, more inspirational hero, one who simply does good without thought or one who has to struggle with their humanity, and still do good after that struggle?  Superman is also basically a god, in power and in intrinsic goodness, and it's hard to take a god seriously as a human hero.



Omar B said:


> How can this woman stand there and see virtue, see man standing up for what is right and openly call it bad for the kids?



This is the third time I've said this in this thread, but the quoted article takes issue with modern superheroes, who are more flawed, and states that the older generation of superheroes like Superman and Captain America made good role models.


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## CoryKS (Aug 19, 2010)

Msby said:


> The "hero's journey" idea by Joseph Campbell is a great one, and it applies to most of our favorite stories!
> Take this image and substitute phrases with some movies/books you can think of...


 
Come to think of it, that reads like the backstory for every D&D character I ever generated as a kid.  

Oh crap, did I just out myself?


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Because it is even less real than superheroes.  It also diminishes the actual struggle we all go through to do good.  Superman does not have to try to be good, he simply is.  What sort of role model is that, really?  We will all be less than honorable, we will all be tempted.  Who makes a better, more inspirational hero, one who simply does good without thought or one who has to struggle with their humanity, and still do good after that struggle?  Superman is also basically a god, in power and in intrinsic goodness, and it's hard to take a god seriously as a human hero.
> This is the third time I've said this in this thread, but the quoted article takes issue with modern superheroes, who are more flawed, and states that the older generation of superheroes like Superman and Captain America made good role models.



Less real?  He's completely fictional you know.  Superman is an abstraction, he does not have to have our flaws or our struggles.  He's there as an inspirational and aspirational figure.  He's Jesus, Moses, Samson, Hercules, only better.  And Superman is tempted, he does struggle, that's what makes him great.  He can destroy anyone he wishes but he always uses restraint in all situations.  He's the greatest example of using your natural gifts to live up to your full potential.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 19, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Because it is even less real than superheroes.  It also diminishes the actual struggle we all go through to do good.  Superman does not have to try to be good, he simply is.  What sort of role model is that, really?  We will all be less than honorable, we will all be tempted.  Who makes a better, more inspirational hero, one who simply does good without thought or one who has to struggle with their humanity, and still do good after that struggle?  Superman is also basically a god, in power and in intrinsic goodness, and it's hard to take a god seriously as a human hero. This is the third time I've said this in this thread, but the quoted article takes issue with modern superheroes, who are more flawed, and states that the older generation of superheroes like Superman and Captain America made good role models.


  Clark Kent was raised by a good old fashioned couple with good old fashioned values and thus naturally grew up to be a good man. I've seen this with many people in my years and have known those who have a streak of goodness in them a mile wide.  To be fair I do know that those who have grown up in alcoholic/dysfunctional homes to have the same wide goodness and for them it's sometimes an effort because they've been so jaded.


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2010)

Exactly, his country upbringing is an abstraction of the best we have to offer.  He grows up in the countries bread basket on a farm with a loving family and a small caring community.  His father taught him the constitution, philosophy and good will to everyone like bedtime stories.  When someone needed help the entire community pitched in and did all they could.  

Weird thing is, I have a good friend named Richard from Kansas and I didn't meet him till my adulthood, he was really like that.  Good almost to a fault.  Not good because of some religious obligation, but because it's what you _should_ do.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 19, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Less real?  He's completely fictional you know.



Yeah, I know.   But even fictional characters differ in how real they come across.



Omar B said:


> Superman is an abstraction, he does not have to have our flaws or our struggles.



That's pretty much my point, he's an abstraction, not a real character.  Thus he is difficult to relate to, and difficult to aspire too.



Omar B said:


> He's there as an inspirational and aspirational figure.  He's Jesus, Moses, Samson, Hercules, only better.



See, that's my point by comparison.  All of the other characters you list were seriously flawed, and some were undone by their flaws.  Others rose above them.  Even the Son of God spent his time in the desert, and had his moments of doubt and pain.  Superman doesn't really come across that way.


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2010)

So I guess you've not read much Superman because he has flaws and has overcome them, it's apart of his greatness.  Maybe you should read Kingdom Come or Crisis Of infinate Earths, of Identity Crisis, or Infinite Crisis or 52, New Krypton, or Peace On Earth, I could go on.  He doesn't come across that way because maybe you are not familiar enough with the material.  Movies, cartoons don't capture the character of literary characters very well.  Many of the cries of Superman being too perfect usually comes from people who really don't have that much of a familiarity.  He's the first and the greatest, all others couldn't follow so they created smaller more naturalistic characters.

A frustrated, tired, broken Superman who has lost his way from Peace On Earth-






The fallen God of Kingdom Come who has forsaken humanity -


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## Empty Hands (Aug 19, 2010)

Hey Omar, I have a question for you, since you seem to be a pretty big comics fan.  How do you feel about Watchmen?  Do you feel that the deconstruction/critique of the entire concept of superheroes offered by Moore in Watchmen has validity?


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2010)

Watchmen is awesome in every way.  I don't know how valid one would consider it though, since it is an alternate universe where Nixon is still president and the Cold War got even colder.  I will say that if we lived in that world we would react in a very similar fashion as the people do in the book, he captured something that many other companies glossed over, how would the regular Joe react to such a world.


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 19, 2010)

Omar B said:


> The whole Batman thing is a great example, becasue of Wertham's book causing this whoel Batman/Robin gay thing that seems to persist even till now is the reason they added Batwoman (a character that failed first time around)...


 
And who is, perhaps with a bit of an ironic nod towards Wertham, a lesbian in her current incarnation. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2010)

I'm sure Denny meant to do that, he's got a gift for sticking it to people since he's been godfathering Batman in the 70's.


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## David43515 (Aug 19, 2010)

Just wanted to thank Omar. I`d forgotten the title of the book "The hero with a 1000 faces". I haven`t been able to get ahold of it, but it`s refferenced alot in the one I mentioned.

Do you guys remember the end of Kill Bill where Bill uses Superman as a metaphore for how the bride sees herself and the rest of the world? I`ve got to admit Quentin Tarentino can write.


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## Omar B (Aug 20, 2010)

You are welcome.

You know, I can't stand Tarantino at all?  I can't stand his writing, his overly referential directing style, the whole thing just bugs me.  He also does not understand fully Superman, he took a kernel of the truth and wrote to fit his story.  He doesnt see himself as better, bigger or anything above us.  He uses his full potential to better the world, just like both his fathers taught him.  Both Clark and Superman are equal in his eyes because there are some things that Clark can do that Superman can't, like writing an article exposing corruption.  

There's a great book, Superman Birthright.  It deals with the years between college and Clark landing the job at the Planet.  The first chapter had him covering segregation in Africa and he marveled at the strength of this man fighting with his words for the rights of his people (he was a thinly veiled Mandella).  Clark does not see humans as weaker, he's amazed at the strength of the human spirit.  He marvelled at this small, frail man refered to as a giant by his people, using his words to win them basic human rights.  






Saving the African leader from an assasination attmpt






Flying over the plains of Africa, what a fun childhood this guy had!


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