# Villari's masters Program



## ziason (Sep 12, 2006)

The school I am at now has a new program they call the Masters program. You get 4 classes a week and 1 private lesson plus a new uniform with the new villaris logo on the Gi and a racing stripe down the sides, with free patches, and the Villaris White Belt to Black Belt DVD set. And seemingly accelerated advancement. Here is the thing though. It seeems to me since they started this that the rest of us (I am not in the program, it costs much more than the regular program.
They have been running the program since I was an orange belt, I am a blue belt now. I don't have a problem with the program, I know someone who is in it and he is progressing nicely. BUT, I have noticed that as I am advancing now, I am NOT beign show new material for my new belt levels in class, but the Masters are. It happened at purple and again at Blue. I asked repeatedly to be show several combinations and forms and neither my main instructors or any of the other instructors did. I only learned the new material from the DVD set I bought, and then my Main instructor recently told me I was doing one of the combinatins wrong, that he doesn't teach it the way it is on the dvd. I bought the DVD from him when he was trying to sell me on the Master program. I'm a little frustrated as I have been really working hard to improve. Before this program started after each advancement we were shown the new material we needed to learn for our next ranks. And in class we would break up into groups by levels so we could practice more advanced materials. Now the ONLY material he seems to focus on in class is the basic material Piono one, combo 6,7, and 8 point blocking system, etc. Nothing really above yellow belt. We have had a lot of turn over lately, new people come in, but don't seem to stay past yellow or orange. I know hee needs to teach them, but I feel I am missing out because I have advance and am not in the special Masters program. I think my money should at least get me the basics of my belt level. Has anyone else here had any experience with this program in their school?


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 12, 2006)

Not a Villari affiliate, but I'd suggest you get an appointment with your instructor asap and discuss your feelings.


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## MJS (Sep 12, 2006)

I have one word to describe this...Marketing!  IMHO, I think its crazy to force someone to join this program, by holding the learning of material over their students heads.  People are going to do it, because they want to progress...those that don't don't progress.

Mike


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## DavidCC (Sep 12, 2006)

Your instructor may be going through a period of adjustment as well trying to integrate the new program.  you can't assume he is leaving you out on purpose.  talk to him about it and then you will know.  if he is trying to cut back on what is taught to non-program... then you have a problem.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 12, 2006)

The fact that you are required to learn new material from a DVD and not directly from the instructor, and that you are being overlooked in favor of another group that pays more than you do, is a strong signal that you should find a new school.


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## bill007 (Sep 12, 2006)

ziason said:


> The school I am at now has a new program they call the Masters program. You get 4 classes a week and 1 private lesson plus a new uniform with the new villaris logo on the Gi and a racing stripe down the sides, with free patches, and the Villaris White Belt to Black Belt DVD set. And seemingly accelerated advancement. Here is the thing though. It seeems to me since they started this that the rest of us (I am not in the program, it costs much more than the regular program.
> They have been running the program since I was an orange belt, I am a blue belt now. I don't have a problem with the program, I know someone who is in it and he is progressing nicely. BUT, I have noticed that as I am advancing now, I am NOT beign show new material for my new belt levels in class, but the Masters are. It happened at purple and again at Blue. I asked repeatedly to be show several combinations and forms and neither my main instructors or any of the other instructors did. I only learned the new material from the DVD set I bought, and then my Main instructor recently told me I was doing one of the combinatins wrong, that he doesn't teach it the way it is on the dvd. I bought the DVD from him when he was trying to sell me on the Master program. I'm a little frustrated as I have been really working hard to improve. Before this program started after each advancement we were shown the new material we needed to learn for our next ranks. And in class we would break up into groups by levels so we could practice more advanced materials. Now the ONLY material he seems to focus on in class is the basic material Piono one, combo 6,7, and 8 point blocking system, etc. Nothing really above yellow belt. We have had a lot of turn over lately, new people come in, but don't seem to stay past yellow or orange. I know hee needs to teach them, but I feel I am missing out because I have advance and am not in the special Masters program. I think my money should at least get me the basics of my belt level. Has anyone else here had any experience with this program in their school?


 
Look like the ''Black Belt club'' with a new name...


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## kosho (Sep 12, 2006)

If there is a program for the master class than it should have its own time frame. it should not be taking up time in a different class setting. if the teacher is not willing to talk with you  and try  and fix the issue  than i would seek out  a new teacher. I understand with new students  at the beginning  they need more time looked at them  but that should not make you suffer. I  think  becomeing  a black belt is more than a dollor  amount  and that time is needed to grow to that level. its not the belt that make the martial art person Its the knowlage that is passed on  and how well the person learning it does with the info  shared.  I teach with the physical  side  but also the mind needs to be worked.  and 1 of the best ways to become better  at things  is to meditate. best of luck hope this helped.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 12, 2006)

ziason said:


> The school I am at now has a new program they call the Masters program. You get 4 classes a week and 1 private lesson plus a new uniform with the new villaris logo on the Gi and a racing stripe down the sides, with free patches, and the Villaris White Belt to Black Belt DVD set. And seemingly accelerated advancement.



Could be a period of adjustment, could be you need to talk to your instructor. 

But this DVD thing and less attention to their students that are not in the program appear to me to be a ploy to force you into the program. If I understand you correctly the program costs more than what you pay so once again I feel it is an attempt to get you onto the higher priced program so they can get more money. Which is a big sign to me that the money is more important to them than the integrity of the martial art they are teaching. 

And how apparent is the accelerated advancement? How much do they depend on the DVDs for training and how much of a kick back do they get when you buy them?

I agree with Flying Crane



Flying Crane said:


> The fact that you are required to learn new material from a DVD and not directly from the instructor, and that you are being overlooked in favor of another group that pays more than you do, is a strong signal that you should find a new school.


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## Carol (Sep 12, 2006)

That's horrible.

Shame that the school is shamelessly profiteering (and I say that as a  pro-business person) off of a program that can be a lot of fun for the students as well as the instructor.

My old school, IMO, did their version of Black Belt Club really well.  There were no special pins or patches, or if there were, no one bought them.  They offered the racing stripe gi.  Not everyone bought them.  (I never did, I hated the way they looked).  But, 6 times a per week, after class, was "club" time on the mat...where we went over a lot of material that was typically over and beyond class work.  We learned grappling, knife disarms my instructors learned from a knife fighter, stick work, and a whole bunch of stuff that was fun to do.  I had no issue with the extra tuition.  Naturally it was extra instruction, and I was more than willing to pay 10% more tuition to learn the extra stuff that was learned in the club.

Definitely recommented to have a long talk with the owners of the school and think VERY hard to see if you want your training, martial arts reputation, and background tied to a school that does business in such a way. 

Wishing you good luck and wise choices


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## ziason (Sep 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Could be a period of adjustment, could be you need to talk to your instructor.
> 
> But this DVD thing and less attention to their students that are not in the program appear to me to be a ploy to force you into the program. If I understand you correctly the program costs more than what you pay so once again I feel it is an attempt to get you onto the higher priced program so they can get more money. Which is a big sign to me that the money is more important to them than the integrity of the martial art they are teaching.
> 
> ...


The money angle definetely plays a part. If you sign up for the advanced program you must either pay all at once (several thousand dollars),
or in two or three split payments.  As for the accelerated advancement, it seems the master students are tested seperately, usually during a week night. Every test I have ever taken was on a weekend with agroup of various ranks. I have seen students in the masters program as orange belts on Monday for example and on Wednesday night they  had been promoted to purple. Supposedly the private lessons are supposed to be where they get the extra instruction, but in reality they are getting the material they would normally get in regular class that the rest of us are no longer getting, unless we have a DVD. BTW, you don't have to buy the DVD either, but if you don't learn from that I'm not sure where you are going to get the material from.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 12, 2006)

Geez, man,  this just doesn't sound good to me.  In all seriousness, I suggest you look around for a new school.  They are just taking your money and giving very very little in return.  And they are also trying to funnel you into a higher-paying program to get what you should be getting in the regular program.  

Run away.  Keep running away.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 12, 2006)

Definitely sounds shady to me. 

Keeping material from some students 'cause they aren't a member of a club sounds really bad.

I would definitely start looking elsewhere.

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 12, 2006)

ziason said:


> The money angle definetely plays a part. If you sign up for the advanced program you must either pay all at once (several thousand dollars),
> or in two or three split payments. As for the accelerated advancement, it seems the master students are tested seperately, usually during a week night. Every test I have ever taken was on a weekend with agroup of various ranks. I have seen students in the masters program as orange belts on Monday for example and on Wednesday night they had been promoted to purple. Supposedly the private lessons are supposed to be where they get the extra instruction, but in reality they are getting the material they would normally get in regular class that the rest of us are no longer getting, unless we have a DVD. BTW, you don't have to buy the DVD either, but if you don't learn from that I'm not sure where you are going to get the material from.


 
*Several thousand dollars!?!?!?!?!?*

I am going to assume there is a contract too.

Like I said before, I agree with Flying Crane and I will add JeffJ too.

Time to look around and start checking out other schools.


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## Gentle Fist (Sep 12, 2006)

ziason said:


> The money angle definetely plays a part. If you sign up for the advanced program you must either pay all at once (several thousand dollars),
> or in two or three split payments. As for the accelerated advancement, it seems the master students are tested seperately, usually during a week night. Every test I have ever taken was on a weekend with agroup of various ranks. I have seen students in the masters program as orange belts on Monday for example and on Wednesday night they had been promoted to purple. Supposedly the private lessons are supposed to be where they get the extra instruction, but in reality they are getting the material they would normally get in regular class that the rest of us are no longer getting, unless we have a DVD. BTW, you don't have to buy the DVD either, but if you don't learn from that I'm not sure where you are going to get the material from.


 
You better be learning how to use a light saber for $7,000!!! :jediduel:


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## Monadnock (Sep 12, 2006)

fistlaw720 said:


> You better be learning how to use a light saber for $7,000!!! :jediduel:


 
That'll be next...the Jedi Program.


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## Danjo (Sep 12, 2006)

Yeah, Villari's really sounds like their integrity is better than the USSD alright.:lfao:


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## Tames D (Sep 12, 2006)

Monadnock said:


> That'll be next...the Jedi Program.


 
Yeah... the Jedi program... I like that.


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## Hand Sword (Sep 12, 2006)

:erg:

Time to get out before you pay into it too many dollars! Being part of the dojo, paying for, and taking regular classes is like studying for the Masters program anyway. That's where they all started too. No extra Charges. Get out while you can!


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## RevIV (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> The money angle definetely plays a part. If you sign up for the advanced program you must either pay all at once (several thousand dollars),
> 
> Where are you located?


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## ziason (Sep 13, 2006)

RevIV said:


> ziason said:
> 
> 
> > The money angle definetely plays a part. If you sign up for the advanced program you must either pay all at once (several thousand dollars),
> ...


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## Gentle Fist (Sep 13, 2006)

$7,000 is a lot for Florida!!!  Hell, it is a lot for almost any state outside of Cali or NYC. 


I guess if you live in Miami or Sarasota that could be normal, since the price of living in those areas is outrageous these days.


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## marlon (Sep 13, 2006)

in all fairness the price was never given..only several thousand dollars.  When i started it was a Villari org and the black belt program was 1000.00 for four years or black belt which ever came fist.  I actually bought out a bb program from someone who was quitting...when i was green at a lower rate and they honoured the time left on it.  BTW it took me about 6 years to shodan
Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Rob Broad (Sep 13, 2006)

Sounds like a rip off to me. I would look for a new school.


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## Monadnock (Sep 13, 2006)

You know.....

New Hampshire (and other states I assume) has laws to protect the consumer from this type of stuff. All Martial Arts schools are to register with the state, submitting documentation of all contracts, pricing, etc. for review.

Reason being, and I've seen this in Massachusetts, schools suck you in for a lot of loot, covering 6 months or training, and then they close their doors, taking your hard earned greenbacks with them.

This is how money corrupted the arts. I would avoid ANY school that uses contracts like that. (Unless your visit is in the spirit of those in the "older" days)


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## hongkongfooey (Sep 13, 2006)

You have been promoted to higher ranks, but your teacher didn't teach you the material?  Forget the master's program. You need to find a school that actually teaches something to their students, without raping them for more money, just to learn the master's secrets. McDojo dude, run away fast.


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## Senjojutsu (Sep 16, 2006)

Ziason, 

Somewhere in a packing crate in my house I may still have my Lifetime membership (free tuition forever) card from Freddies I bought for about $750. back in 1981. (It was half price sale too!).

I wonder if they would still honor this card if I walked into a franchised studio today?
BTW I made out on that deal because I continued to train until I was past the break-even point.

Do they still market FV vitamins? LOL

Okay there is nothing wrong with a dojo business model where the instructors offer private lessons or a black belt club - as long as it does not discriminate from the economy students learning the material and advancing. Your monthly tuition, diligent training and rank progression should be the passport to obtain any styles knowledge  maybe over a longer time period  but still made available to you.

Obviously this is not the case you are presenting - reading the detail.

IMO coming up with several thousand dollars for a long-term prepaid period tuition enrollment almost always is a scam. If for no other reason for the inherent drop-out rate existing at every dojo. That FYI is not a disconnect with what I did back in 1981, because I had been training at that franchise location for about eighteen months and knew the instructor very well. In fact I was one of his original students when he opened up shop. And I had a high degree of confidence to reach that break-even point. As an aside - if I had paid full price I would have LOST on the deal because outside life events changed my training opportunities.

Use this as a learning experience in your Martial Arts journey as you find your next dojo.

Good Luck.


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## Tames D (Sep 16, 2006)

Senjojutsu said:


> Ziason,
> 
> Somewhere in a packing crate in my house I may still have my Lifetime membership (free tuition forever) card from Freddies I bought for about $750. back in 1981. (It was half price sale too!).
> 
> ...


 
It would be interesting to see if they would still honor your lifetime membership.


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## John Bishop (Sep 16, 2006)

QUI-GON said:


> It would be interesting to see if they would still honor your lifetime membership.


  Sounds like the'd have to prove you died, to get out of the contract:rules:


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 12, 2006)

I was always under the idea that Fred Villari was a student of Nick Cerio who broke away when he was a 2nd dan, but on his website it says that he and Nick Cerio collaborated and trained together under William Chow.  Does anyone know if there is any truth to that or is Villari's website making things up.


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## DavidCC (Nov 17, 2006)

I've asked around about any corroboration of that, the best I could find was some speculation by those who were in a position to make a good guess that Villari may have accompanied prof. Cerio on a trip to Hawaii when he met Chow, but I don't think anyone is saying that Villari went and trained with Chow on his own.

if anyone knows differently, please share


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## almost a ghost (Nov 17, 2006)

I love black belt clubs, because all they do is show the hypocracy of a schools time table to become a black belt and shows that rank is indeed for sale.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2006)

almost a ghost said:


> I love black belt clubs, because all they do is show the hypocracy of a schools time table to become a black belt and shows that rank is indeed for sale.


 
What amazes me, although it really shouldnt, is how these schools tend to be REALLY BIG! I just cant believe how vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big they are by comparison to other schools.


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## Tames D (Nov 17, 2006)

almost a ghost said:


> I love black belt clubs, because all they do is show the hypocracy of a schools time table to become a black belt and shows that rank is indeed for sale.


 
Agreed.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 17, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> I've asked around about any corroboration of that, the best I could find was some speculation by those who were in a position to make a good guess that Villari may have accompanied prof. Cerio on a trip to Hawaii when he met Chow, but I don't think anyone is saying that Villari went and trained with Chow on his own.
> 
> if anyone knows differently, please share


 
He may have taken a group class with the Prof.


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## dianhsuhe (Nov 18, 2006)

To the best of my knowledge Villari did not train with Professor Chow at all.


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 18, 2006)

That's what I thought, but his website says differently.


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## KempoFlow (Nov 21, 2006)

Danjo said:


> Yeah, Villari's really sounds like their integrity is better than the USSD alright.:lfao:


 

I don't think you can judge all of Villari's schools as a group.   If you do that is really no different than stereotyping an entire race or sex.  They are owned by individuals with different approaches and styles of teaching.

I am a student at a Villari's school as are my children.  The school I am at would never do something like that.   The master really cares about all of her students and makes sure that she gives us all the attention that we need and deserve.  Also there are no financial contracts, fees are all month by month.

However, there are always bad seeds that can ruin a reputation for a whole group.



almost a ghost said:


> I love black belt clubs, because all they do is show the hypocracy of a schools time table to become a black belt and shows that rank is indeed for sale.


Again not all schools treat it that way.  Our school does have a BBC, however all it does is get the student unlimited classes and lower testing/private fees.  I think by paying the extra fee that is fair.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 23, 2006)

Again not all schools treat it that way. Our school does have a BBC, however all it does is get the student unlimited classes and lower testing/private fees. I think by paying the extra fee that is fair.


Thats better than most schools that charge 200 more month for A SPEACAL CLASS.


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## KempoFlow (Nov 24, 2006)

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Thats better than most schools that charge 200 more month for A SPEACAL CLASS.


That's pretty steep, I don't even pay 200 for three of us to attend two classes each a week.


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## Danjo (Nov 24, 2006)

KempoFlow said:


> I don't think you can judge all of Villari's schools as a group. If you do that is really no different than stereotyping an entire race or sex. They are owned by individuals with different approaches and styles of teaching.
> 
> I am a student at a Villari's school as are my children. The school I am at would never do something like that. The master really cares about all of her students and makes sure that she gives us all the attention that we need and deserve. Also there are no financial contracts, fees are all month by month.
> 
> ...


 
I'm glad that you've found a place to train that you enjoy. Ther are two kinds of experience in the martial arts however. One is the kind that you describe, i.e., "I like it." Which, ultimately, might be all that is important.

The other kind is, "I've been to several places to train and here's how this type stack up compared to the others." Which is more where I'm coming from. 

As John Bishop said in the sticky, there are always exceptions within organizations, and if you've found one, then I'm happy for you.


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## KempoFlow (Nov 24, 2006)

Danjo said:


> As John Bishop said in the sticky, there are always exceptions within organizations, and if you've found one, then I'm happy for you.


Exactly my point in my OP.


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## Tenguru (Nov 24, 2006)

Allow me to introduce myself.  My name is Tenguru, and I used to train at Villaris.  In fact, I trained there for about 5 years.

Let me point out that MY IMPRESSION of the entire Shaolin Kempo ranking structure is that it is designed to make money for the company, not to provide any accurate measure of fighting ability.  In fact, MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is that most of the practitioners I trained with (and learned from) sucked at actual hand-to-hand combat.  

yellow,orange,purple,blue, blue w/stripe, green, green w/stripe, brown 3rd, brown 2cd, brown 1st, black.  Each "test" costing about $40(in the early nineties).  Want to "learn weapons"?  Better pony up a few hundred bucks to learn a form.  

Learning "material" from a DVD.  

The "masters" program sounds like another variant of the "ATP" (Advanced Training Program) that Villaris had back in the 90's.  

I recommend that you all stop paying $200/month to learn to defend against telegraphed step-through lunge punches and rediculous wrist-graps and improperly applied chokes.  Train in applied martial arts where you learn to defend against people actually trying to **** you up in class.

I can not spell very well. 

Thank you.

P.S.  You shouldn't give a darn if some people pay extra in order to advance more quickly.  Just because the instructor is giving them more "material" (my favorite word of Villari speak) doesn't make him more skilled.  Just because John Smith, who has been training the same amount of time as you (but in the masters club) knows 2 Kata, and you dont ....  .... do you think that means he can magically kick your ***?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.     Of course not.  It just means he fell for the marketing ploy.  $50 bucks for a belt does not a fighter make.


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 24, 2006)

So what style or dojo would you recommend Tenguru?


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## Tenguru (Nov 24, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> So what style or dojo would you recommend Tenguru?



It's not so much the style.  There are some very good Ke(m|n)po organizations out there.  I was referring to my specific experiences with one in particular.

If you are in reasonable health I recommend schools that emphasize contact sparring.  There are good karate and kung fu schools that do this.  Kyokushin, San Shou,  some Kenpo/Kempo schools,  Boxing,  Wrestling,  Mauy Thai, Sombo, Judo, Gracie JuJitsu, etc.  And crosstrain if you can.


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 24, 2006)

I've thought about cross training.  There's a place that teaches Brazilian Jujitsu close to where I work ( my supervisor trains there and recommends it highly) and I'd like to check it out sometime.


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## Tenguru (Nov 24, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> I've thought about cross training.  There's a place that teaches Brazilian Jujitsu close to where I work ( my supervisor trains there and recommends it highly) and I'd like to check it out sometime.



If you have the time, take a few classes.  Most of the BJJ places I have visited allow you to train for a few weeks without requireing a commitment.  Grappling arts are great because the physicality of the training will make you tough as nails.  The cardio and fatigue you experience is awesome.  Grapplers get to apply their techniques at full speed and power against resisting opponents.  That said, you still need to know how to strike and work the clinch to be a complete fighter.  If you just want to learn some basic self defense, learning all ranges of hand-to-hand combat may be overkill, though. It depends on your goals.


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 24, 2006)

My aim is to be the best all around martial artist that I can be.  I've been  in love the martial arts since I was a kid, and it's a thrill to finally be able to be a part of it.


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## Danjo (Nov 25, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> I've thought about cross training. There's a place that teaches Brazilian Jujitsu close to where I work ( my supervisor trains there and recommends it highly) and I'd like to check it out sometime.


BJJ is a very good art for ground work.even if you only take if for a few months, it's well worth it.


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## Mariachi Joe (Nov 29, 2006)

Yeah maybe when I'm done with ussd and have a little extra $ I'll do some BJJ


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## Danjo (Nov 29, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> Yeah maybe when I'm done with ussd and have a little extra $ I'll do some BJJ


 
USSD+ 215.00 per month (165.00 per month w/discount but I don't count that since I had to pay it back when I quit)

Ralph Gracie JJ = 110.00 per month

I don't know what the prices are where you're at now, but that was what it was here a couple of years ago. So if you can afford USSD, you should be able to afford BJJ.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Nov 29, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> Yeah maybe when I'm done with ussd and have a little extra $ I'll do some BJJ


 
Hey joe did you ever call that shaolin arts place?

Before you jump in to another school check out the rec centers first.
You might just find the right instructor/style your looking for!

Just because a guy rents a place doesn't mean he knows what he is doing.  
A lot of instructors just want to teach but can't afford a retail center.


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## Mariachi Joe (Dec 2, 2006)

No the only one I've contacted so far is Jeff Hayes, he teaches Kara-Ho.  I tried contacting a couple of epak dojos but one # was a teenage girls cell phone who had no idea what epak was and the other was a child who also had no idea what epak was.  Still planning on calling the shaolin centers, arrowhead, and a BJJ studio.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Dec 5, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> No the only one I've contacted so far is Jeff Hayes, he teaches Kara-Ho. I tried contacting a couple of epak dojos but one # was a teenage girls cell phone who had no idea what epak was and the other was a child who also had no idea what epak was. Still planning on calling the shaolin centers, arrowhead, and a BJJ studio.


 
You'll like shaolin centers teaches real shaolin kung fu and they promote you on fighting not sales.


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## Gufbal1982 (Dec 5, 2006)

Danjo said:


> USSD+ 215.00 per month (165.00 per month w/discount but I don't count that since I had to pay it back when I quit)
> 
> Ralph Gracie JJ = 110.00 per month
> 
> I don't know what the prices are where you're at now, but that was what it was here a couple of years ago. So if you can afford USSD, you should be able to afford BJJ.


 

If you can afford USSD, you can afford anywhere to be honest.


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## Mariachi Joe (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm having a hard time affording ussd, that's why I've started looking elsewhere and am not staying past my contract.


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## shaolin ninja 4 (Dec 7, 2006)

Mariachi Joe said:


> I'm having a hard time affording ussd, that's why I've started looking elsewhere and am not staying past my contract.


 
How much longer do you have?


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## MeatWad2 (Dec 8, 2006)

Tenguru said:


> Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Tenguru, and I used to train at Villaris. In fact, I trained there for about 5 years.
> 
> Let me point out that MY IMPRESSION of the entire Shaolin Kempo ranking structure is that it is designed to make money for the company, not to provide any accurate measure of fighting ability. In fact, MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is that most of the practitioners I trained with (and learned from) sucked at actual hand-to-hand combat.
> 
> ...


 
I attended a Villari's back in the 90's and I remember the ATP patches.  They were cool.  I wanted a patch because I was an instructor and the other ones had one...so, I asked him if I could buy one.  He had NO IDEA what ATP stood for, so he said it stood for "Advanced Teaching Program" and I couldn't get one till I turned 21 or owned my own school.  So, I bought a license for a school.  Where's my patch??


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## Mariachi Joe (Dec 8, 2006)

I've got 10 months left.


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## Gufbal1982 (Dec 8, 2006)

MeatWad2 said:


> I attended a Villari's back in the 90's and I remember the ATP patches. They were cool. I wanted a patch because I was an instructor and the other ones had one...so, I asked him if I could buy one. He had NO IDEA what ATP stood for, so he said it stood for "Advanced Teaching Program" and I couldn't get one till I turned 21 or owned my own school. So, I bought a license for a school. Where's my patch??


 
You mean they never gave you your patch?  What a rip!


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## yogaji (Mar 26, 2008)

ziason said:


> The school I am at now has a new program they call the Masters program. You get 4 classes a week and 1 private lesson plus a new uniform with the new villaris logo on the Gi and a racing stripe down the sides, with free patches, and the Villaris White Belt to Black Belt DVD set. And seemingly accelerated advancement. Here is the thing though. It seeems to me since they started this that the rest of us (I am not in the program, it costs much more than the regular program.
> They have been running the program since I was an orange belt, I am a blue belt now. I don't have a problem with the program, I know someone who is in it and he is progressing nicely. BUT, I have noticed that as I am advancing now, I am NOT beign show new material for my new belt levels in class, but the Masters are. It happened at purple and again at Blue. I asked repeatedly to be show several combinations and forms and neither my main instructors or any of the other instructors did. I only learned the new material from the DVD set I bought, and then my Main instructor recently told me I was doing one of the combinatins wrong, that he doesn't teach it the way it is on the dvd. I bought the DVD from him when he was trying to sell me on the Master program. I'm a little frustrated as I have been really working hard to improve. Before this program started after each advancement we were shown the new material we needed to learn for our next ranks. And in class we would break up into groups by levels so we could practice more advanced materials. Now the ONLY material he seems to focus on in class is the basic material Piono one, combo 6,7, and 8 point blocking system, etc. Nothing really above yellow belt. We have had a lot of turn over lately, new people come in, but don't seem to stay past yellow or orange. I know hee needs to teach them, but I feel I am missing out because I have advance and am not in the special Masters program. I think my money should at least get me the basics of my belt level. Has anyone else here had any experience with this program in their school?


     This is not to discredit FV, the man is awesome. however has told several versions of his truth for yrs.  I am a former Fred Villari instructor and school owner in RI.  I can tell you from when i first started studying in 1976, I remember seeing his brochure which stated that he studied in China.  Giving the whole history of shaolin Kempo.  then years later he finally says that he created the systems he originally said he studied.  And then years later he says he studied with Master Chow and Nick Cerio.  Funny thing is though why did he wait to say he studied with Master Cerio untill Master Cerio passed away.  He had over two hundred schools in the usa and canada.  most went under because of his unethical business practises.  Masters program is nothing more that the brown and black belt programs he used to offer in his schools.  A student paid approxiamately $2600. for a black belf program which says that you didn't have to pay again until you reached the rank of black belt.  There are things you need to remember. 75% of students will drop out or discontinue their training before the rank of black belt.  But the real story is how the FV schools began selling black belt cards for $350.  Sure they had  a couple of months, but within 3 to 4 months 3/4 of the school were no longer paying any tuition.  Schools started going under.  I purchased a franchise in RI and my wife and i didn't check the books.  3/4 of the school weren't paying tuition.  It forced RI to create a law that health clubs weren't allowed to offer any membership programs that promised anything over a yr. 
     I'm not bashing FV fighting ability, however when someone doesn't tell the truth you have to begin to question what else are they lieing about?


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## ChadWarner (Mar 26, 2008)

Ehhhh this thread is like two years old, I think you might be a little late with your response.


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## Tames D (Mar 26, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Ehhhh this thread is like two years old, I think you might be a little late with your response.


 
Didn't know there was a time limit. I thought he posted some good info. Welcome to the forum yogaji.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 26, 2008)

Yeah, the original post is old, BUT, sometimes a subject, like this one can be aired again so the new people can learn from this guys example.

If your instructor offers you a spot in a "Master Program" boys and girls, RUN


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## Hand Sword (Mar 26, 2008)

As I was a once serious practicing martial artist, and have always taken that mindset with regard to it, I would say that overall, I'm not in favor of such things and would agree with running. However, since the martial art world is now all about this kind of stuff, finacially, it might not seem a bad idea. Pay once and never again might sound good. Also, since these school chains aren't going away anytime soon, and are instead becoming the majority, these programs might be better suited for people to take up. It opens up future business and financial opportunites. Let's face it, the old ruff and tumble days and ways are gone and most likely won't be back. If you are of the few that prefer the old ways of doing things--you can. In the end worry about yourself, let others do what they want, and offer council if asked. If they follow-great, if not--doesn't affect you.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 27, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> Didn't know there was a time limit. I thought he posted some good info. Welcome to the forum yogaji.


 
How do you know if the school is there anymore or if it even offers this kind of program to date?  Or too many other variables that time can change.


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## Danjo (Mar 27, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> As I was a once serious practicing martial artist, and have always taken that mindset with regard to it, I would say that overall, I'm not in favor of such things and would agree with running. However, since the martial art world is now all about this kind of stuff, finacially, it might not seem a bad idea. Pay once and never again might sound good. Also, since these school chains aren't going away anytime soon, and are instead becoming the majority, these programs might be better suited for people to take up. It opens up future business and financial opportunites. Let's face it, the old ruff and tumble days and ways are gone and most likely won't be back. If you are of the few that prefer the old ways of doing things--you can. In the end worry about yourself, let others do what they want, and offer council if asked. If they follow-great, if not--doesn't affect you.


 

Well you're dead wrong about the martial arts world being all about this stuff  and the old-school stuff being gone. It might not be advertised in magazines the way the fluffy stuff is, but it's still there. Most BJJ schools, Muy Thai, Kyokushin, SL4 and Krav Maga still practice pretty hard, and I KNOW Kajukenbo does.

Shady business practices are wrong regardless, and I think there is nothing wrong with someone that was affiliated with that organization coming forward and adding to this thread.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> How do you know if the school is there anymore or if it even offers this kind of program to date? Or too many other variables that time can change.


 
Does Villari still exist!!! I am going to go with yes.



Hand Sword said:


> As I was a once serious practicing martial artist, and have always taken that mindset with regard to it, I would say that overall, I'm not in favor of such things and would agree with running. However, since the martial art world is now all about this kind of stuff, finacially, it might not seem a bad idea. Pay once and never again might sound good. Also, since these school chains aren't going away anytime soon, and are instead becoming the majority, these programs might be better suited for people to take up. It opens up future business and financial opportunites. Let's face it, the old ruff and tumble days and ways are gone and most likely won't be back. If you are of the few that prefer the old ways of doing things--you can. In the end worry about yourself, let others do what they want, and offer council if asked. If they follow-great, if not--doesn't affect you.


 
Not Vallari but... 

See any good bajiquan schools lately? .. no!!  and likely you wont, a lot of the real hard core guys do not advertise and they do not teach just anyone.

See any real Police/Military Sanda schools lately?  no!! and likely you wont because they dont advertise or teach just anyone either.

I will admit the fluff outweighs the serious hard training schools but it is still there. They just dont advertise




Danjo said:


> Well you're dead wrong about the martial arts world being all about this stuff and the old-school stuff being gone. It might not be advertised in magazines the way the fluffy stuff is, but it's still there. Most BJJ schools, Muy Thai, Kyokushin, SL4 and Krav Maga still practice pretty hard, and I KNOW Kajukenbo does.
> 
> Shady business practices are wrong regardless, and I think there is nothing wrong with someone that was affiliated with that organization coming forward and adding to this thread.


 
Agreed


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## ChadWarner (Mar 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Does Villari still exist!!! I am going to go with yes.


 
I didn't ask if villari exists,  no where did I make that statement.  I said does that school exist with that particular program.  Kinda makes all the difference in the world doesnt' it?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> I didn't ask if villari exists, no where did I make that statement. I said does that school exist with that particular program. Kinda makes all the difference in the world doesnt' it?


 
Not if you are looking at this form the POV of say Danjo's post and on MT post do evolve and old posts get revisited as well. But if that is not your cup of tea then why get involved at all

And since Villari still sells DVDs white belt to black belt to learn at home I think this is a relevant post.


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> Let's face it, the old ruff and tumble days and ways are gone and most likely won't be back. If you are of the few that prefer the old ways of doing things--you can. In the end worry about yourself, let others do what they want, and offer council if asked. If they follow-great, if not--doesn't affect you.


 


Danjo said:


> Well you're dead wrong about the martial arts world being all about this stuff and the old-school stuff being gone. It might not be advertised in magazines the way the fluffy stuff is, but it's still there. Most BJJ schools, Muy Thai, Kyokushin, SL4 and Krav Maga still practice pretty hard, and I KNOW Kajukenbo does.
> 
> Shady business practices are wrong regardless, and I think there is nothing wrong with someone that was affiliated with that organization coming forward and adding to this thread.


 
Well, I have to agree with Danjo on this.  Frankly, this is one of the things that irks me the most about some of the arts today.  They're so watered down, with little to no contact because someone is afraid they may break a nail.  I've always viewed the arts as self defense, first and foremost.  

Now, don't get me wrong, if you bang hard all the time, it may start to take a toll on you.  But, if all you do is fluff, well...God help you if you ever need to defend yourself.  Take sparring for example.  Some days I'll go a bit lighter, but the contact is still there.  If you can't even hit someone because you're afraid of hurting someone feelings, having to fear them leaving, etc., well, how good is that for your training?  Not very IMO.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> How do you know if the school is there anymore or if it even offers this kind of program to date? Or too many other variables that time can change.


I don't. And you don't either. I still think he posted good info. Got it?


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## ChadWarner (Mar 27, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> I don't. And you don't either. I still think he posted good info. Got it?


 
Unless you have experienced it yourself it is heresay- got it?   If there were video to be scrutinized sure post away.  And if the school is no longer villari affiliated his name was dragged through the mud for no reason... This also happens frequently.


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## Danjo (Mar 27, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Unless you have experienced it yourself it is heresay- got it? If there were video to be scrutinized sure post away. And if the school is no longer villari affiliated his name was dragged through the mud for no reason... This also happens frequently.


 
Your Honor, move to strike the witness' remark as non-responsive.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not if you are looking at this form the POV of say Danjo's post and on MT post do evolve and old posts get revisited as well. But if that is not your cup of tea then why get involved at all
> 
> And since Villari still sells DVDs white belt to black belt to learn at home I think this is a relevant post.


 
And who left you the keeper of Kenpo?  I was here at the start of MT, just took a couple of years off.  So I have heard all this before.    Unless evidence is shown- it just sounds like whining to me.  Then again go to a commercial school you get what you deserve.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 27, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Your Honor, move to strike the witness' remark as non-responsive.


 

Right on bro!!


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2008)

Master's Program = teh Suxxors

LOL

I have often wondered about Villari though. I mean I got to give the man props, he is a snappy dresser. All those gold strikes on the sleeves? thats cool


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## Rabu (Mar 28, 2008)

I hope the guy found a good school which gave him the instruction and attention he was looking for.  Or at least a more stable environment.

I echo the commentary made by Danjo, which I often do, seek the styles he mentions if you wish to train at a higher level.

best regards,

Rob


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## Danjo (Mar 28, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Master's Program = teh Suxxors
> 
> LOL
> 
> I have often wondered about Villari though. I mean I got to give the man props, he is a snappy dresser. All those gold strikes on the sleeves? thats cool


 
Well, the only one's that I have heard comment on how impressive he is are his own students. Take that for what you will.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 28, 2008)

Great advice!!! Since they are loud mouths on both sides of any argument, one should take it ALL for what it is. If you're interested in finding out about something or someone--research, experience and find out for yourself.


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## Danjo (Mar 28, 2008)

Hand Sword said:


> Great advice!!! Since they are loud mouths on both sides of any argument, one should take it ALL for what it is. If you're interested in finding out about something or someone--research, experience and find out for yourself.


 
Or, you could ask others on a forum like this one. Sort of what it exists for eh?


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## Hand Sword (Mar 28, 2008)

You could and it does, but ultimately it's just more opinions which fall on both sides of the argument. You gotta do things for yourself.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> And who left you the keeper of Kenpo? I was here at the start of MT, just took a couple of years off. So I have heard all this before. Unless evidence is shown- it just sounds like whining to me. Then again go to a commercial school you get what you deserve.


 
HUH!?!?!

Never said I was the keeper of kenpo...are you?

As to when you started at MT, what does that have to do with anything? Time posting on the web on MT means what?

You were off a couple of years, again not sure what that has to do with anything but welcome back.



> Then again go to a commercial school you get what you deserve


again HUH!?!?!? 



> Unless evidence is shown


 
Unless evidence shown about what? The school in question or Villari's Home study program

*The issue to me is belt rank via DVD that is all.* 

Apparetly you are offended by the opinions of a lowley CMA guy that does not attend commercial schools when he dare comment about Villari...


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## Tames D (Mar 28, 2008)

Chad - Are you associated with Bob Jones?


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## Twin Fist (Mar 28, 2008)

I dont know about getting rank from DVD's but You sure can learn from them. I learned a BUNCH of kata that way.

I figure that once a person gets to a certain level, BB level at least, he should be able to see a technique and get some understanding of it


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I dont know about getting rank from DVD's but You sure can learn from them. I learned a BUNCH of kata that way.
> 
> I figure that once a person gets to a certain level, BB level at least, he should be able to see a technique and get some understanding of it


 
I agree that DVDs are a great supplement to training with a sensei, Sifu, teacher, etc. But they are not a replacement for it


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## Twin Fist (Mar 28, 2008)

absolutely not. 

Not till they can invent a dvd that will side kick you in the junk when you leave your guard open...............


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## ChadWarner (Mar 28, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> Chad - Are you associated with Bob Jones?


 
No Way...


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## Tames D (Mar 28, 2008)

Interesting.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 28, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> HUH!?!?!
> 
> Never said I was the keeper of kenpo...are you?
> 
> ...


 
I am not offended LOL...   Your phony appeal to pitty (lowly cma guy) and other informal phallacies tell me you are highly manipulative anyways.  That says something about who you really are.  Ding thankyou for playing.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 28, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> Interesting.


 
Why would that be interesting?  If you want to know my line ask.


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## MJS (Mar 28, 2008)

It always seems that any time a thread is started about Villari, it always tends to get a bit heated.  Looking back thru this section as well as the horror stories section, there've been a number that've been closed.  Lets try to keep this somewhat civil please.  I'm sure we all know that we won't always agree with one another, but taking personal shots, really isn't helping the thread much.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 28, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> I am not offended LOL... Your phony appeal to pitty (lowly cma guy) and other informal phallacies tell me you are highly manipulative anyways. That says something about who you really are. Ding thankyou for playing.


 
Chad

You apparently misinterpreted my post, it was not an appeal for pity it was sarcasm at your expense and the fact that I had to explain that speaks volumes about you.


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## Tames D (Mar 28, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Why would that be interesting? If you want to know my line ask.


Interesting that I am wrong. I'm usually pretty good about guessing someones line. I woulda bet the farm that your a Bob Jones guy.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 28, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> Interesting that I am wrong. I'm usually pretty good about guessing someones line. I woulda bet the farm that your a Bob Jones guy.


 
You would have lost the farm-  My movements and theories are polar opposites of his and my line is much older than that.   In fact one of my distant relatives posts here.  LOL


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## Carol (Mar 28, 2008)

[playnice]Carol Kaur[/playnice]


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## ChadWarner (Mar 28, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> [playnice]Carol Kaur[/playnice]


 
 Awwwww too bad we were just about to get along here:iws:


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## Danjo (Mar 28, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> I am not offended LOL... Your phony appeal to pitty (lowly cma guy) and other informal phallacies tell me you are highly manipulative anyways. That says something about who you really are. Ding thankyou for playing.


 
Fallacy means mistaken. Phallacy means "penis like". Just thought you should know.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 29, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Fallacy means mistaken. Phallacy means "penis like". Just thought you should know.


 
Actually not.  Phallacy is not even really a word unless you mispell fallacy.  Phallic symbol is what you are refering to.  Yes I had phil. 101, 102 and taking 103...   try taking philosophy, psychology and then trying to remember where the ph goes.


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## Danjo (Mar 29, 2008)

ChadWarner said:


> Actually not. Phallacy is not even really a word unless you mispell fallacy. Phallic symbol is what you are refering to. Yes I had phil. 101, 102 and taking 103... try taking philosophy, psychology and then trying to remember where the ph goes.


 
I know where MY ph goes, just keep an eye on your own.


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## ChadWarner (Mar 29, 2008)

Danjo said:


> I know where MY ph goes, just keep an eye on your own.


 
I am not on the road to an acedemic teaching credential,  therefore, I should get points if it even sounds like what it is supposed to be.  Oh- nevermind I just noticed spell check on here.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 2, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Fallacy means mistaken. Phallacy means "penis like". Just thought you should know.



Hell, it looked like a pissing match to me.... the ph seemed appropriate.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 2, 2008)

I wonder what it is that MAKES villari so controversial. I admitt I dont know much about the guy


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## Danjo (Apr 2, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> I wonder what it is that MAKES villari so controversial. I admitt I dont know much about the guy


 
Because he was one of the forerunners of the McDojo chain schools where you now see black belts worn by adults who can't fight and children. He now sells them through the mail. I get sick of people asking if I have a black belt and then telling me that their grandchild has one too and he's 13 years-old. Takes a lot of explaining to make them understand that it's not the same thing. When people put money ahead of quality, problems arise.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 2, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Because he was one of the forerunners of the McDojo chain schools where you now see black belts worn by adults who can't fight and children. He now sells them through the mail. I get sick of people asking if I have a black belt and then telling me that their grandchild has one too and he's *13 years-old*. Takes a lot of explaining to make them understand that it's not the same thing. When people put money ahead of quality, problems arise.


 
It has been many years since my JMA days and caring about belts but *WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED!?!?.* When I was in Jujitsu I was a kid and we were told that no matter how we trained we could not test for a black belt before we were 18.


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## Twin Fist (Apr 3, 2008)

I think part of what happened is that people will starve themselves to give their kids something, like karate lessons

BUT

if kids cant test, they quit

And the sad but cold truth is, ask anyone with their own school, "Kids pay the bills"

So sooner or later, you have to either let the kids test for black, or lose them.

There are lots of compromises. In my TKD lineage, untill recently, under 17, you could get a "junior black belt" but there was no 1st degree, 2nd degree, etc You couldnt advance

same result, they would just quit and some would come back when they turned 17 and could test for Adult black.

I dont think there is a perfect answer though. Me? I have avoided ever opening a school just because i want to avoid this issue.


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## Jdokan (Apr 4, 2008)

When I first started with Villari it was in '73 and I don't remember kids being there..maybe...the brain gets kinda cloudy after a weekend let alone 35 years....(_I do though remember it being a very rough and tumble crowd..they did pride themselves on having effective ranks...least in my school....I worked out alot of the then Black Belts and they were a tough crowd_)..on average there were 30+ new white belts each month....I think the youngest student that may have been accepted then was in their teens....by the mid 80's kids had become prevalent but their ranking was always "junior BB"...They did have to know the same material;basically 20 of everything and a dozen forms...Over the years I did notice that it became very Chuckie Cheese (Local food playground, dancing bears, tec...for those not familiar) They no longer had to have the material down crisp, clean, effective....too bad...it did offer kids something more than it does today...now it has become another "soccer class"....
Just my experience not to generalize on all schools....


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## marlon (Apr 5, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> When I first started with Villari it was in '73 and I don't remember kids being there..maybe...the brain gets kinda cloudy after a weekend let alone 35 years....(_I do though remember it being a very rough and tumble crowd..they did pride themselves on having effective ranks...least in my school....I worked out alot of the then Black Belts and they were a tough crowd_)..
> 
> I think my first kempo teacher Elizabeth was taught the same as you, she would pick us apart during the drill!!! re aligning the legs, arms fist, foot position, posture....and you were in for some pain if she had to correct you twice in one class...I remember my 3rd class she was explaining something and i did not hear so i whisper to the guy next to me...then BANG a back kick and the realization that i needed to purchase a jock strap!  No further correction necessary.  and when she hit you she used a fraction of her power and you left with bruises..later she would hit me harder so i know that it was only a fraction.  I loved those classes!!!! I do not remember any kids...and wonder of wonders she had to close.  I almost quit when she moved away because the new instructor was "softer" and i felt like it wasn't kempo.  None of Elizabeth's students were allowed to be sloppy and did not learn even the next move of a technique before she was satisfied!!  I miss that lady.
> 
> ...


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## Jdokan (Apr 16, 2008)

Liz Gilbert....She was/is an awesome MA....fast, technical like to hit and didn't make a fuss when she got hit.....We worked out together at the same dojo for a few years before she went North....

You were lucky to work out with her......She was "old school"....Fabulous attitude, always upbeat.  The kind of person you like having inside your circle......
Peace,
J.


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