# Wanting to die without being suicidal?



## Hand Sword (Jul 4, 2010)

Hello all,

This topic has seemed to surround me as of late. I've recently dealt with some people who have wanted to end their lives. I separate these people into 2 groups. Of course the first group are the ones so overcome with depression, or mental issues that cause this feeling (and action/attempts) to come about. The other is the group of people who show no signs of any of these issues, and simply explain it as they are simply weary of this life and world, truly tired of it all and are just "ready to go." Now these people live their lives, smiles to tears, go about their day to day activities, with full production, and are "normal" in all senses. Recently, I heard an "expert" say that these people are still suicidal and should be treated as such. Others accept that as with anything, you can tire of it completely and can be ready to be done with it. They claim it's just a cultural view of life needing to be "clinged to" and that it's simply not a reality. They then cite how many senior citizens can be heard to have said and felt the same things.

What do you all think about this?


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## girlbug2 (Jul 4, 2010)

My amateur opinion is that the second group sounds more like 2 groups: those who are just tired and venting about it, and those who actually intend to commit suicide one day and have made a plan, thus feeling peaceful and going about their normal lives until it's time. How to tell the difference, is beyond me.


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## MJS (Jul 4, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Hello all,
> 
> This topic has seemed to surround me as of late. I've recently dealt with some people who have wanted to end their lives. I separate these people into 2 groups. Of course the first group are the ones so overcome with depression, or mental issues that cause this feeling (and action/attempts) to come about. The other is the group of people who show no signs of any of these issues, and simply explain it as they are simply weary of this life and world, truly tired of it all and are just "ready to go." Now these people live their lives, smiles to tears, go about their day to day activities, with full production, and are "normal" in all senses. Recently, I heard an "expert" say that these people are still suicidal and should be treated as such. Others accept that as with anything, you can tire of it completely and can be ready to be done with it. They claim it's just a cultural view of life needing to be "clinged to" and that it's simply not a reality. They then cite how many senior citizens can be heard to have said and felt the same things.
> 
> What do you all think about this?


 
I've read some articles, that people want to pass a bill that will enable a doctor to assist in 'helping someone die.'  So much like putting a family pet down, the difference is, is that instead of trying to do it yourself, and possibly fail, someone else is doing it for you.  

Apparently some people feel this isn't right, because the bill hasnt passed.  Heres an interesting thought....some people are against the death penalty.  Why? Because time has shown that there've been cases, in which an innocent person on death row, could be proven innocent...usually with some shocking new info. that only took 20yrs to find. LOL!  Besides its cruel and inhumane and painful.  

So now, you're going to have someone with an illness who is in pain and wants to die.  Has every single little possible bit of research been done or found to ensure that with treatment, this person will survive?  I mean, if you're not going to fry some guy on death row because he 'may be innocent' then have the doctors done everything humanly possible to make sure there is no cure for whatever is wrong for this person?


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Hello all,
> 
> This topic has seemed to surround me as of late. I've recently dealt with some people who have wanted to end their lives. I separate these people into 2 groups. Of course the first group are the ones so overcome with depression, or mental issues that cause this feeling (and action/attempts) to come about. The other is the group of people who show no signs of any of these issues, and simply explain it as they are simply weary of this life and world, truly tired of it all and are just "ready to go."


 
The second group is right.





> Now these people live their lives, smiles to tears, go about their day to day activities, with full production, and are "normal" in all senses. Recently, I heard an "expert" say that these people are still suicidal and should be treated as such. Others accept that as with anything, you can tire of it completely and can be ready to be done with it. They claim it's just a cultural view of life needing to be "clinged to" and that it's simply not a reality. They then cite how many senior citizens can be heard to have said and felt the same things.


 
The "others" are right.

I'm eager to stay ( there's still a few things I want to get done before my time comes) but ready to leave.


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## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2010)

Sir Terry Pratchett the author has spoken out recently about his wish to end his life when he choses, he was diagnosed with Alzheimers and would like to be able to chose the time of his dying while he can still make rational decisions, before the ravages of the disease turn him from himself into something else.
I don't think we can take the decisions of people like that lightly and make decisions for them because we feel there may be a cure or that we feel it's wrong. It's hard but I think we have to respect the wishes of people with such conditions as his or terminal illnesses that leave the patient with no dignity at the end, if they chose to end their lives. We can't force them to want to live because we may believe there's hope of a cure or because _we_ want to live. I don't think either that we can make the decision to end their lives for them, living wills are possibly the best answer but that means people have to think about the manner of their passing and there's few willing to do that until at lest they are facing such illnesses. 
People with mental health issues are a different matter.


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## seasoned (Jul 4, 2010)

I feel that everyone at some point in their life has entertained these feelings, but to actual do it is something I just can't understand. I know there are exceptions such as a terminal illness, or the feeling of loneliness or depression. I am no expert on any of the above, but life is so precious, and situations change so fast, that I just can't comprehend it. I just hope that I am never faced with this, pertaining to my life, and if I ever have the opportunity to help someone else, that I will have the right words, or am able to support someone in such a way as to discourage their feelings. It is the ones that slip through the cracks of life, that leave the ones that could have help, maybe, with feeling of inadequacy.


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## Ken Morgan (Jul 4, 2010)

I dont think its a cultural view point that we cling to life. Its a biological necessity, inherent in all of us. Im pretty sure that avoiding a potentially fatal accident of some kind would happen instinctively amongst the second group

I know there are times when the clinically ill or terminally ill would just like to end it all, as TEZ says with dignity, sometimes we have had enough of the pain, the suffering and just want it all gone.

I think as we get older we tend to accept the certainty of death, we know we are going to die, though we may go kicking and screaming, we will in fact die one day. I wonder if this is really where the second group is? Though Im guessing there may in fact be some metal health issues involved.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 4, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I know there are times when the clinically ill or terminally ill would just like to end it all, as TEZ says with dignity, sometimes we have had enough of the pain, the suffering and just want it all gone.



If you have ever heard of "The Suicide Tourist", it is about a good friend of mine's father, who was in that exact place and did something about it.


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## Ken Morgan (Jul 4, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> If you have ever heard of "The Suicide Tourist", it is about a good friend of mine's father, who was in that exact place and did something about it.


 
No, but I just googled it. Sadly I know of people who have had elderly grandparents/parents do the same thing. I understand why. Perhaps one day we may be in a similar situation, and take similar actions.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 4, 2010)

In my personal experience working with (recovering) alcoholics/drug-addicts and for several months manning a suicide hot-line (before burning out as many do), I've discovered that there are three types of suicides. All three want to die but to a lesser or greater degree. Wanting to die without being suicidal? No such animal IMO. To quote a great line from a great book, you either "get busy living or get busy dying." 
Type A: They're going to die irregardless and will not tell ANYONE of their plans. They will set their affairs in order as they see it and find a nice quiet means to do so or go to the other extreme and take an action that will assuredly end their lives, i.e. impulsively drive off a bridge or into a bridge support or head on with a semi or start pointing a gun at the police until they are shot or whatever! You couldn't stop them if you tried. They WILL find a way. 
Type B: These types will kill themselves unless they find someone to talk them out of it. I've had one guy call the hot line and was ready to commit suicide via automobile. He had been put on hold and transferred to a different person several times before I picked him up. All I did was sit and listen and hear him out and give support at the right places. He ended up feeling better having get all that crap he was carrying inside off his chest and the need/desire to live came back to him. 
These people want desperately for someone to just shut up and listen to them. They will only reach out to strangers as a last resort because that tiny part of them still wants to go on living in spite of the majority wanting to die. If these people are reached then they have a high percent chance of postponing or canceling, their actions, and seek professional help. If they feel they aren't being listened to then (in their minds) they're right and nobody cares and they carry on through their plans. 
Type C: Attention getters. How can I make someone, anyone listen to me... ah! "Hey everybody, I'm going to kill myself!" Invariably someone will jump up and try to talk them out of it and they got the attention that they are so craving (but not necessarily needing). 

The elderly are in a separate class but more aligned with type C's because they're lonely and suffering from the infirmities that their age has placed upon them... whatever they may be. Some will simply quit living and their actions (not eating, not taking their meds or taking too many of their meds or whatever it is that they know they should NOT be doing) will lead to their demise. Theirs is indeed a sad plight but it's not always their families fault ... some will refuse to go to a home or a group elderly home or a hospice out of stubborn independence. Some will fight their family's attempt to place them to a home because they feel that the family doesn't care anymore but fail to realize that sometimes the family does not have the capability (sometimes $$) to have the level of care the elderly person requires. There are many more examples.

The infirm are again a separate class of people wanting to die. Their quality of life is down to zero, lying in a hospital bed with tubes in their bodies, wired to machines and visited by a PT once a day (to prevent bedsores, muscle atrophy, etc.) but unable to do anything else except lay there maybe watch tv. Pain meds don't help or anything else that present medical science can do. They grow tired of their seemingly meaningless existence and just want to end it. 

Yet still another group appears and are more aligned with the type A's than the others. Those who have suddenly stopped their anti-depressant meds and without warning even to themselves they impulsively take their own lives, suddenly. 

Having a number of friends who have prematurely terminated their lives voluntarily, I know that it's a difficult thing to deal with. Each case is different and each case requires special attention. Sometimes just a simple sit down and chat helps and others a radical change in day to day venue or given a sense of purpose helps.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 4, 2010)

Funny Thing:

I just now saw the first Star Wars movie and it got me thinking again about this thread.

Particularly the scene where Obi shuts down the tractor beam and then duels Vader and creates the distraction necessary for the others to escape.

He knew he'd accomplished his mission and then prepared himself for Vader's final swipe.

That's what I was talking about--a sense of knowing one can't run from Death, and that it may that be your purpose, is to serve another purpose.

Obi didn't give up even after his Old Republic was ashes, nor even when Vader first attacked, he wasn't "suicidal" but was ready to go.

THAT's what I was getting at and it may have come out wrong in my first post.


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> Apparently some people feel this isn't right, because the bill hasnt passed.  Heres an interesting thought....some people are against the death penalty.  Why? Because time has shown that there've been cases, in which an innocent person on death row, could be proven innocent...usually with some shocking new info. that only took 20yrs to find. LOL!  Besides its cruel and inhumane and painful.
> 
> So now, you're going to have someone with an illness who is in pain and wants to die.  Has every single little possible bit of research been done or found to ensure that with treatment, this person will survive?  I mean, if you're not going to fry some guy on death row because he 'may be innocent' then have the doctors done everything humanly possible to make sure there is no cure for whatever is wrong for this person?



You can put me in the former camp regarding the DP.
However, there is one thing in this life that is your own, and that's your life itself. If YOU feel that your time has come and want to end it, that is your decision.

If you have terminal cancer and suffer so much that even the morfine doesn't help anymore, isn't it cruel to make that person suffer against his wishes, just to squeeze every last drop of 'life' out of him until his misery overtakes him? If they desperately want to die, isn't is an act of mercy to give them the shot they're desperately asking for?


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## Hand Sword (Jul 5, 2010)

The "Having the horrible disease" and "suffering in pain" parts I also put into the side of the mentally distressed group. I was originally speaking of healthy, "normal" people who have come to feel that way in life. 

Also, for those that feel the life is yours and you have a right to do as you wish- Is there or should there be an age limit for this?


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 5, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> The "Having the horrible disease" and "suffering in pain" parts I also put into the side of the mentally distressed group. I was originally speaking of healthy, "normal" people who have come to feel that way in life.
> 
> Also, for those that feel the life is yours and you have a right to do as you wish- Is there or should there be an age limit for this?



Well, Belgian law has recognized euthanasia as a legal way to end a life, but there is a protocol involved, which includes talking with a counselor, establishing a recognized reason, and then getting a second opinion. I am also fairly certain that there is an age limit not underage). It's not like you go to the doctor and ask him to shoot you up.

Look at it from the other side: there is not a thing you can do to prevent someone from taking their own life in a messy way which will place a ton of misplaced guilt on the shoulders of other people. This way, there can be closure for the people involved, and a humane death.

But as I said: the valid legal reasons for euthanasia in Belgian law are not whimsical, there is a protocol to be followed, and the doctor has to be willing to do it.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> You can put me in the former camp regarding the DP.


 
What surprises me, is how long people have to sit before they're proven innocent?  Are the lawyers, judges, cops, the system, so messed up, that someone, an innocent man, will have to sit for 10 or more years before the light goes off and they realize..."Oh ****...we got the wrong guy!!"  And what happens next?  The guy who wasted 10yrs sues and wins!  Hey, I'm all for giving the guy something, and it is a shame he sat for that amount of time, but....if its proven without a shadow of a doubt, the man is guilty, then I say **** all these endless appeals...strap that SOB to the chair, and pull the switch.




> However, there is one thing in this life that is your own, and that's your life itself. If YOU feel that your time has come and want to end it, that is your decision.
> 
> If you have terminal cancer and suffer so much that even the morfine doesn't help anymore, isn't it cruel to make that person suffer against his wishes, just to squeeze every last drop of 'life' out of him until his misery overtakes him? If they desperately want to die, isn't is an act of mercy to give them the shot they're desperately asking for?


 
I'm sure you are not the first, nor will you be the last to say this.  That being said, all the people who share your feelings, hopefully are lobbying for this and saying just that.  But if they are, why isn't it being passed as a bill?

Besides, I think its safe to say that we all know that doctors are not the most reliable people in the world, so should this bill get passed, hopefully all the supporters of it, understand that there will be family members of this sick person with cancer, or whatever the disease is, that will question the process and inquire endlessly, if there was anything more that could've been done, to save their loved one.


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> What surprises me, is how long people have to sit before they're proven innocent?  Are the lawyers, judges, cops, the system, so messed up, that someone, an innocent man, will have to sit for 10 or more years before the light goes off and they realize..."Oh ****...we got the wrong guy!!"  And what happens next?  The guy who wasted 10yrs sues and wins!  Hey, I'm all for giving the guy something, and it is a shame he sat for that amount of time, but....if its proven without a shadow of a doubt, the man is guilty, then I say **** all these endless appeals...strap that SOB to the chair, and pull the switch.


 
It's not that I fundamentally disagree with you, but as I argued in a similar thread some time ago: it is impossible to legally define 'without a shadow of doubt'. Eye witness accounts suck. that's been proven enough times in spectacular ways. The DA also does not have to show exonerating evidence if they have it. They have to share it, but they don't have to point it out. Expert witnesses are not reliable either, and forensic evidence is subject to interpretation as well. There have been enough cases that seemed airtight, only to be refuted later on.

And it would also be weird to say: well, we're sure enough that he did it so he is guilty, but we're not really sure so let's not do anything irreversible. Legally speaking, you're either guilty or not. And if wrongful actions of anyone involved in the proceedings lead to a wrongful execution, don't they deserve the death penalty as well? That would only seem fair. The DA asks for the DP and he should not do that unless he is absolutely certain. My guess is that if the life of the DA was tied irrevocably to the guilt of the defendant, there'd be a lot less death penalty cases.

So my stance is to choose life without parole. That gives an innocent man a chance / hope to be redeemed, while also keeping scum off the street and protecting the citizens.



MJS said:


> I'm sure you are not the first, nor will you be the last to say this.  That being said, all the people who share your feelings, hopefully are lobbying for this and saying just that.  But if they are, why isn't it being passed as a bill?
> 
> Besides, I think its safe to say that we all know that doctors are not the most reliable people in the world, so should this bill get passed, hopefully all the supporters of it, understand that there will be family members of this sick person with cancer, or whatever the disease is, that will question the process and inquire endlessly, if there was anything more that could've been done, to save their loved one.



From what I've seen since our euthanasia laws went into effect, there has been no abuse, and the loved ones have more and better closure than if a patient has to come up with his own suicide plans. And during the counseling process, many people reconsider because being able to talk about it helps.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> It's not that I fundamentally disagree with you, but as I argued in a similar thread some time ago: it is impossible to legally define 'without a shadow of doubt'. Eye witness accounts suck. that's been proven enough times in spectacular ways. The DA also does not have to show exonerating evidence if they have it. They have to share it, but they don't have to point it out. Expert witnesses are not reliable either, and forensic evidence is subject to interpretation as well. There have been enough cases that seemed airtight, only to be refuted later on.
> 
> And it would also be weird to say: well, we're sure enough that he did it so he is guilty, but we're not really sure so let's not do anything irreversible. Legally speaking, you're either guilty or not. And if wrongful actions of anyone involved in the proceedings lead to a wrongful execution, don't they deserve the death penalty as well? That would only seem fair. The DA asks for the DP and he should not do that unless he is absolutely certain. My guess is that if the life of the DA was tied irrevocably to the guilt of the defendant, there'd be a lot less death penalty cases.
> 
> So my stance is to choose life without parole. That gives an innocent man a chance / hope to be redeemed, while also keeping scum off the street and protecting the citizens.


 
I'm sure there are many cases, in which is pretty obvious that someone is guilty.  But, while I do support the death penalty, I would also be content with life in prison on the condition that its just that life in prison with *no chance to parole...ever!  In addition to no appeals...ever!*





> From what I've seen since our euthanasia laws went into effect, there has been no abuse, and the loved ones have more and better closure than if a patient has to come up with his own suicide plans. And during the counseling process, many people reconsider because being able to talk about it helps.


 
Well, if thats the case, I'm happy to hear it.


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## Blade96 (Jul 7, 2010)

Hand Sword said:


> Hello all,
> 
> This topic has seemed to surround me as of late. I've recently dealt with some people who have wanted to end their lives. I separate these people into 2 groups. Of course the first group are the ones so overcome with depression, or mental issues that cause this feeling (and action/attempts) to come about. The other is the group of people who show no signs of any of these issues, and simply explain it as they are simply weary of this life and world, truly tired of it all and are just "ready to go." Now these people live their lives, smiles to tears, go about their day to day activities, with full production, and are "normal" in all senses. Recently, I heard an "expert" say that these people are still suicidal and should be treated as such.



I think its bs what that expert said. My father is in his 60's and said that when his time comes he's ready to go.  But he isnt suicidal. I think the first group is suicidal. I was one of them, i used to be.   I think of the second group as just accepting it whenever it is their time. They accept death as natural.

and btw when my cat was dying of feline leukemia my mother was the one who decided to put him down (she was very close to him so we made it her decision)....then spent months afterward questioning her decision. especially after she met a woman at a recycling plant who had two cats whose bodies had managed to fight off the FeLV virus (some cats do)  Most however do not and eventually die from it. My cat was very much close to death.

and he was a cat. Imagine how it would be for a human. i think with euthanasia its normal to still wonder despite everything if there was anything elsse that could have been done.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 7, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Funny Thing:
> 
> I just now saw the first Star Wars movie and it got me thinking again about this thread.
> 
> ...


So what you're talking about is self-sacrifice for the greater good. Same as a soldier who jumps on a live grenade to save his squad, or someone stepping out in front of a gun to catch a bullet intended for someone else. Running out in front of a speeding car to push a child out of the way and getting hit. 
Such deaths can be viewed as noble, unselfish. Often times they're done impulsively, almost instinctively. To say praises for that type of person makes us feel better about the sudden loss. 
Jesus said: "No greater love hath any man than he who lays down his life for his friends." I've always loved this verse in the Bible and hold it to be a very true statement. 
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to allow others to go on. Time will teach us the value of such sacrifices.


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