# Quitting Wing Chun



## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

I've come to the conclusion that I just can't go any further with this MA, nor any MA for that matter.  The sad fact is that all the WC schools have schedules that are not compatible with mine.  In Phoenix, if you don't have a car you're not getting anywhere. All the jobs are out in Mesa/Tempe/Chandler/Gilbert/Scottsdale and it's the same with Wing Chun.  They're all the way out there but my mode of transportation (bus) may take me there, but no way to get back.  Just incompatible schedules.  All potential arts that I want to learn are the same exact circumstances.  They're not here where I am.

So I can't go to a school, and learning it at home I'm finding is extraordinarily difficult, not because of the instruction, but because of the practice involved with a MA.  You can't train responsiveness by yourself, sensitivity, or whatever.  There's only so much you can do by yourself, and in the air.  It's so futile that it pisses me off!  

To learn by myself, I need a partner and this is where it pisses me off even further.  Even people who study their own MA don't want to train, I mean why would they? They have their own classes to go to and they don't care about me advancing my art.  

People who I know that don't know MA don't want to learn it.  They're too busy playing competitive video games (which is frankly what most people do these days).  It's getting to the point to where I'll go back to competitive fighting games just to find some damn competition and where my practice can lead to real application!

I've actually applied some concepts that I learned such as one hand controls two, changing shape to suit the situation, yielding and applying forward energy, backup hand and more.  I even have inch power.  It's effective stuff and that's what makes this harder to accept that I'll never be able to master it the way that I should.

I want to thank Jin (chinaboxer) for his concept videos, all of which helped take my training to a higher level of understanding.  Sifu Duncan Leung, with his many posts to help people understand WC.  Michael Wong for which his online lessons set me towards learning WC.  Gary Lam for his amazing (although slightly overpriced) DVD's.  Chu Shong Tin for his articles into the finer aspects.  I've learned so much this past year and a half.  It's a shame that I can't even practice it.


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## baron (Jul 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear of your plight.  Have you talked to people at the school to see if any one can give you a ride?  I know when I trained I used to take people home if they needed a ride.  This also gives you time to make deeper freindships and then maybe you can find some one to train with.


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

I can't even get to the schools because like I said, not enough time to get back.  The schools are not in my town.  If I go there, I can drop in for maybe 10 minutes before I have to leave.  Also most of them do not permit just dropping by, they have to be scheduled and I can't make a commitment to something I can't follow through with.


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## jks9199 (Jul 5, 2010)

Were you serious, you would find a way.  I have a hard time believing that there are no martial arts schools that you could train at, or that there was no way you could make it work.  I know one person who would bicycle some 15 or 20 miles every day, each way, to train, for example.  If this was something you really wanted, you would figure out a way to make it work.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 5, 2010)

coffeerox- and you are in Phoenix? Lots of choices from different lineages.
Perhaps, I don't understand your problem.
Depending on will and dedication often it is possible to find a way. 
When I moved from Tucson to Las Cruces, NM., every Friday for years I would make a 270 mile trip-560 round trip to learn on Friday through Sunday.Now I am back in Arizona in Tempe- 110 miles up the road from Tucson. A couple of my students travel 40 miles round trip to learn. They come together and practice also on their own.
BTW, I am not giving you a hard time.

joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

Well then I guess I am not serious enough.  I don't have a car, don't have a bike to use.  The closest school is 17 miles away so I'm not walking that distance to/from.  Even if I could bike up there, I don't have the money to pay the fee.  It's not that there are no martial art schools, it's that there are no Wing Chun schools.  WC's closest styles/systems, are Aikido and Tai Chi.  Aikido is not in the area, and Tai Chi is in a bad part of town, and I question whether they teach health or both health and combat.  Either way I can't pay the fee.



> coffeerox- and you are in Phoenix? Lots of choices from different lineages.
> Perhaps, I don't understand your problem.
> Depending on will and dedication often it is possible to find a way.
> When I moved from Tucson to Las Cruces, NM., every Friday for years I would make a 270 mile trip-560 round trip to learn on Friday through Sunday.Now I am back in Arizona in Tempe- 110 miles up the road from Tucson. A couple of my students travel 40 miles round trip to learn. They come together and practice also on their own.
> ...



With all due respect, things are a lot easier with a car.  I just don't have the resources to learn this the way that I should.  My only option was to practice with a partner but I can't find one.  No one wants to do anything!


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## Chat Noir (Jul 5, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Were you serious, you would find a way.  I have a hard time believing that there are no martial arts schools that you could train at, or that there was no way you could make it work.  I know one person who would bicycle some 15 or 20 miles every day, each way, to train, for example.  If this was something you really wanted, you would figure out a way to make it work.



I don't think that's a fair thing to put on someone.  I had a sifu that rubbed it in my face how long he'd travel for classes.  He'd go to NY and train and come back to MA. He'd work in shoe stores, etc.  I got lost easy driving, I had no money to speak of, a learning disability in math and I had to travel more than hour just to train with a couple of guys in my spare time.  People have a life. Believe it or not, you can be serious about an art and just have strikes against you. Maybe Coffeeerox really is serious but he's got a crappy situation - not unlike what I had.  BTW, Coffee, I once looked out a guy in three pages of the phone book trying to find him only to find he gave up Wing Chun. There was no way for me as a woman to find a training partner, much less find someone serious and long term.  I feel for you. It pissed me off too but not as much as the self righteous SOB I had a sifu.  I dumped his sorry behind and have much better teachers now. 

Maybe you can't do Wing Chun for now. Find something else in the meantime and when you can move, or find a better situation. My sympathies Coffe, I've really been there and know how you feel.

Laura

P.S.  Coffee - just a thought, if you can't train in Wing Chun - do what I did until I found my teacher - I bought instructional DVDs and played them out.  You can learn a lot by watching.  Find another art - post on Craigslist - keep looking.  In the meantime, if you can join a gym or something else, go for it until you get a break.  Good luck.


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks Laura.  I'm glad that someone out there understands my plight.  It's not like I didn't try.  I created a Do-It-Yourself curriculum, lots of hours of study, form practice, reading, etc.  This was over 1.5 year timespan.  Had I discovered WC in 2008, things would have been different, I was actually in a position at that time but didn't know it.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

I know you posted this in the WC area, but area you willing to train something else if you could get there?  Out of curiosity, what is your mode of transportation?  You said you have no car or bike.  How do you get around?

http://www.kajukenbo.org/schools/

http://www.winjutsu.com/winlinks.html

http://www.skhquest.com/train-with-us/schools/

http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/cgi-bin/addacad.pl

Just a few things that I found.  Is there anyone that can drive you to and from any of these places?


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## jks9199 (Jul 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Thanks Laura.  I'm glad that someone out there understands my plight.  It's not like I didn't try.  I created a Do-It-Yourself curriculum, lots of hours of study, form practice, reading, etc.  This was over 1.5 year timespan.  Had I discovered WC in 2008, things would have been different, I was actually in a position at that time but didn't know it.


I didn't want to go down this road -- but you're bringing it up.

You "created a do-it-yourself" program.  Based on what knowledge or experience?  It seems that you're saying that tai chi, aikido, and wing chun are similar systems.  Well, I guess they are in that they all involve Oriental martial arts, and the same human body... but that's about it.  Even tai chi and aikido aren't that similar, and neither is very similar to wing chun.

I don't know what your limitations on obtaining a car or bike, or earning the money to pay for the classes are.  They certainly seem like things that could be overcome if you wanted to do so badly enough.  Certainly more easily than inventing your own curriculum based on the internet/videos/who-knows-what and wishing you could find someone to practice with...  I can tell you, were you to approach me and say "I just wanna practice this wing chun stuff I've been doing without a teacher" my response would be pretty reliably thanks, but no.  I might offer you the opportunity to train with me, in my style... but I'm not going to encourage a let's-pretend version of wing chun.  Maybe I'm missing where you actually trained in the style for a while...


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## Haakon (Jul 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> It's not that there are no martial art schools, it's that there are no Wing Chun schools.  WC's closest styles/systems, are Aikido and Tai Chi.



You might want to look at other styles, Aikido isn't really anything like the Wing chun I've seen. It looks like there are a couple of Kempo studios in Phoenix, you might take a look at one of those if you can swing the fee, I'd think they would be a lot more like WC than Aikido or Tai Chi.


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## CRCAVirginia (Jul 5, 2010)

Relax, don't force it... when you are ready a teacher will come, in the meantime continue doing what you can.  Punching, kicking, Forms etc.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

Chat Noir said:


> I don't think that's a fair thing to put on someone. I had a sifu that rubbed it in my face how long he'd travel for classes. He'd go to NY and train and come back to MA. He'd work in shoe stores, etc. I got lost easy driving, I had no money to speak of, a learning disability in math and I had to travel more than hour just to train with a couple of guys in my spare time. People have a life. Believe it or not, you can be serious about an art and just have strikes against you. Maybe Coffeeerox really is serious but he's got a crappy situation - not unlike what I had. BTW, Coffee, I once looked out a guy in three pages of the phone book trying to find him only to find he gave up Wing Chun. There was no way for me as a woman to find a training partner, much less find someone serious and long term. I feel for you. It pissed me off too but not as much as the self righteous SOB I had a sifu. I dumped his sorry behind and have much better teachers now.
> 
> Maybe you can't do Wing Chun for now. Find something else in the meantime and when you can move, or find a better situation. My sympathies Coffe, I've really been there and know how you feel.
> 
> ...


 
Perhaps the OPs comment was viewed this way:  Many times, when people ask about schools, training, etc., they're looking for things that are only within a certain distance, which is fine, but many times, those same people have said that theres nothing in their area, when in fact there is, but they're limiting themselves to a certain distance.  

Sure, its nice to have a school/teacher right around the corner.  One of my Arnis teachers is within walking distance of my condo, my Kenpo teacher is about 20min.  But if I wanted to train that bad, I'd make the trek...all within reason of course.  No, I would not expect someone to travel 3 or more hrs one way, but there is a guy in the Boston area of MA that comes to CT to train.  Certainly not around the corner.  

Would I travel 2hrs.?  Yes, if a) it was something I wanted that bad and b) if there was nothing equal to what I was looking for.  Of course, I'd make it worth my while though.  In addition to a class, I'd also fit in a private lesson.


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## Chat Noir (Jul 5, 2010)

Not everyone has that choice to travel two hours.  Coffeerox may have other commitments in his life that require his time, and while it may be no big deal to another, everyone is different.  It's unfair to suggest that if you don't go to extremes to train, you're not a serious martial artist. 

I recommend Coffee that if you can't do Wing Chun, better to train in something than nothing at all.  Aikido and Tai Chi are in fact similar to WC because it requires not going against strength and going with the flow.  If you don't see the similarities, you're not looking hard enough.  I study Wing Chun, Jeet Kune Do, and Judo - and I can see the similarities in all of them, or I wouldn't study them, because I'm primarily a Wing Chun gal. However, Coffee will do what is best for him and what he can manage within his physical limitations to the school regarding distance and travel and what he can afford. No one should judge his dedication to the art if you don't know his life.

BTW Coffee - just a quick note, I found the name of my unlisted Wing Chun teacher - my first sifu from a Kempo Karate guy I trained with.  Needless to say once I got in touch with the WC guy, I dropped Karate.   Put yourself out there, you never know what you can find or when you'll get lucky.  The best teachers can be found through networking.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

Chat Noir said:


> Not everyone has that choice to travel two hours. Coffeerox may have other commitments in his life that require his time, and while it may be no big deal to another, everyone is different. It's unfair to suggest that if you don't go to extremes to train, you're not a serious martial artist.
> 
> I recommend Coffee that if you can't do Wing Chun, better to train in something than nothing at all. Aikido and Tai Chi are in fact similar to WC because it requires not going against strength and going with the flow. If you don't see the similarities, you're not looking hard enough. I study Wing Chun, Jeet Kune Do, and Judo - and I can see the similarities in all of them, or I wouldn't study them, because I'm primarily a Wing Chun gal. However, Coffee will do what is best for him and what he can manage within his physical limitations to the school regarding distance and travel and what he can afford. No one should judge his dedication to the art if you don't know his life.
> 
> BTW Coffee - just a quick note, I found the name of my unlisted Wing Chun teacher - my first sifu from a Kempo Karate guy I trained with. Needless to say once I got in touch with the WC guy, I dropped Karate.  Put yourself out there, you never know what you can find or when you'll get lucky. The best teachers can be found through networking.


 
Points taken.  I did suggest a few other options aside from WC.  I'm not from that area, so I have no idea how far any of those places I listed, are from the OP.  Another option is a study group.  Perhaps getting together with someone who does train at a school, who'd be willing to work with him a few times a week.  Hell, it doesnt have to be a black belt.  IMO, if someone was at an intermediate level, well, thats better than nothing.  I also asked if there was anyone that would be willing to drive him.  Perhaps carpool with someone.  

I also suggested private lessons.  I know many people who just do privates because of their schedules.  Money is money IMO, and I'd be surprised if a teacher turned it down, if someone contacted them, told them of their situation, and made arrangement for 1 on 1 lessons.

I never said his dedication wasn't there.  It just seems to me that there are other options out there, that perhaps he didn't think of or take advantage of yet. 

If all else fails, then my suggestion is this:  If the OP has any training, then he will have to train on his own, drilling the stuff, even if it means doing it without a partner, until that time, when he can find the necessary transportation.


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## Tensei85 (Jul 5, 2010)

To OP, I am sorry for your dilemma truly. 

But does'nt it seem a little redundant to be posting this concern as it seems you've already made up your mind not to find a way to make it work??? (Or am I missing something, most definitely am : )~) 

If that's the case I will say I don't recommend as many, "do it yourself Martial Arts kits". 

But as what's stated I travelled 5 hours one way & would stay for a Weekend, I've even taken a 6 hour flight one way for a weekend of training. That includes saving pennies to make it happen, I'm a firm believer that there's always a way to make something that you want to work inless you really don't want to make it happen. So I won't continue on that note as it seems that point has already been firmly laid out.

So all that being said I wish you the best & hope you enjoy competitive video game playing, haha sometimes I do as well.


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## TaiChiTJ (Jul 5, 2010)

With all due respect, the Phoenix metropolitan area is a vast horizontal spread, and to my thinking, shy on any Chinese Martial Art training availability. 

There seems to be a TaeKwonDo school on every corner, and often a van is parked outside the TKD school ready to go pick up the kids after school. I have spoken to parents who absolutely love this, because the TKD school is closer than the public school and they can get things done in their busy lives. The TKD school becomes a time management tool. 

Other than that, more specialized CMA disciplines, if they are here at all, are few and far between, farflung across the Phoenix metropolitan area. 

Having said that, lighten up. Work carefully at the hand forms, and let the system sink into your bones. The day may come when access to serious training partners is a reality. You'll be ready.
Also, hopefully Geezer will provide some of his hard won wisdom on this subject!


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

> You "created a do-it-yourself" program.  Based on what knowledge or  experience?


Based on others knowledge and experience.  It's pretty much taking Michael Wong's lessons, Jin Young's concepts, which by the way, Michael's is focused on combat applications and with Jin's concepts teaches you to have the proper structure for those combat applications.  I've also studied videos from Gary Lam and Chu Shong Tin on Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu from Benny Meng.  Sadly did not get the chance to get any more Chum Kiu material.

Michael Wong's WC Lesson 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w9t...&p=2939A535FABE8ECA&playnext_from=PL&index=18
Jin Young on SNT





Michael's system was missing the forms and the study of the different hand shapes such as Tan, Bong, Fook so what I did was learn Siu Nim Tao from various instruction sources.   Went back to his lessons and better understood what he was teaching me.  He was teaching these things without labelling them.

The study of the various hand shapes took a long time and up until today, was an ongoing progress.  It's not just those three that I studied by the way.  I also studied Wu, Pak, Jum, Jut, Fak, Lan, Gan, Gum, Kwon, and so on, so forth. 



> It seems that you're saying that tai chi, aikido, and wing chun are  similar systems.


They are all internal arts.  A lot of the concepts I've noticed are used in those systems.  I saw Attack+Defend in Aikido, yielding to greater force, redirection of attacks.  For the most part they are very similar, just done in a different way, different applications.

Steven Seagal training Anderson Silva in Aikido







> They certainly seem like things that could be overcome if you wanted to  do so badly enough.


It's quite easy to say in Virigina, but come down to Phoenix and it's a whole different ballgame.  Our job market is different, cost of living is different, etc.  You wouldn't make it out here.



> Perhaps the OPs comment was viewed this way:  Many times, when people  ask about schools, training, etc., they're looking for things that are  only within a certain distance


You're not reading what I'm saying are you?  Go to Google Maps and type in Wing Chun Phoenix Arizona.  I want you to tell me how many schools are in Glendale and Phoenix.  Look at the map.  Phoenix is a huge city, and our public transportation is not as advanced as other cities.

I would travel 2 hours too, but there's *no way to get back home after class.*



> *I also suggested private lessons.*


Private lessons are even worse as that goes into the hundreds.  If this was 2008, I could spot a bus ride to school and maybe a taxi ride back home however it's 2010 and things aren't looking that good anymore.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> You're not reading what I'm saying are you? Go to Google Maps and type in Wing Chun Phoenix Arizona. I want you to tell me how many schools are in Glendale and Phoenix. Look at the map. Phoenix is a huge city, and our public transportation is not as advanced as other cities.


 
I'm reading what you're saying. Are you reading what I'm saying? Seems like you're limiting yourself to just WC. I posted links to a number of other places. So basically you're telling me that there is nothing, not even a TKD school, within walking distance?



> I would travel 2 hours too, but there's *no way to get back home after class.*


 
Absolutely nobody available to drive you or carpool with? Obviously if someone is willing to drive you there, you'd think they'd be willing to pick you up as well.





> Private lessons are even worse as that goes into the hundreds. If this was 2008, I could spot a bus ride to school and maybe a taxi ride back home however it's 2010 and things aren't looking that good anymore.


 
The hundreds? How long are the lessons? Im assuming that you asked the teacher if he'd be willing to work with you on a price and explained your situation to him/her? How much will it cost for a taxi one way? 

You're probably not going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyways. It sounds like you want to train. It sounds like you have transportation issues. It sounds like there are options available to you. I dont know whether or not you've exhausted all of your options, but if you havent, perhaps you should. If training is not an option at this time, then you need to accept that. You came on here, starting a thread, giving me at least, the impression that you were looking for suggestions/solutions to your problem. Suggestions were given, but it seems that either they're not good enough, or you just dont like what you're hearing. Perhaps training at this time, isn't in the cards for you.


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

> Seems like you're limiting yourself to just WC.



I'm not limited to WC.  I've practiced a little bit of Shotokan and Boxing. I like Boxing but doesn't encompass what I want to learn, neither does Shotokan.  There is actually a Shotokan school within 1 short bus ride.  What I want to train in is an internal martial art, not these other hard styles.

I looked at your list, which btw I appreciate, the only one I was interested in was Bujinkan which I had no idea we had school here.  I'll look into it but then I'll have to deal with fees.  Financially right now is not a good time.



> How much will it cost for a taxi one way?



30 dollars minimum.



> Perhaps training at this time, isn't in the cards for you.



That's the conclusion that I reached.  I hope to get a new job and move down to Tempe or Mesa and finally get a formal education so that I'm not mocked by people for learning it myself.


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## MJS (Jul 5, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I'm not limited to WC. I've practiced a little bit of Shotokan and Boxing. I like Boxing but doesn't encompass what I want to learn, neither does Shotokan. There is actually a Shotokan school within 1 short bus ride. What I want to train in is an internal martial art, not these other hard styles.
> 
> I looked at your list, which btw I appreciate, the only one I was interested in was Bujinkan which I had no idea we had school here. I'll look into it but then I'll have to deal with fees. Financially right now is not a good time.


 
If thats the case, if you only want a softer/internal art, then it seems that you will have to wait until things work out better for you.  Of course, I wouldn't consider BJJ a hard style, nor would I consider Kaju to be a hard style, such as Shotokan.  





> 30 dollars minimum.


 
Actually, I can believe that.  I was in Vegas recently, and almost fell over at the price of a cab.  Amazing how quick it adds up.  





> That's the conclusion that I reached. I hope to get a new job and move down to Tempe or Mesa and finally get a formal education so that I'm not mocked by people for learning it myself.


 
Well, IMO, anytime people talk about learning something themselves, you will most likely run the risk of being mocked.  Why?  Because someone that attempts to learn from a source other than a live teacher, will find that it's not as easy as it seems, and many fine points will be missed.  Now, dvds are a good reference tool.  I would most likely get something out of one of Larry Tatums dvds, but I've already been doing Kenpo for quite some time, so chances are, I'd be able to pick up on what he's saying, better than someone who's never done Kenpo.  Of course, live instruction from Larry would be even better. 

Good luck in your search.  I hope things work out for you.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 5, 2010)

Found 2 in our school listing.

Arizona Personal  Protection Academy - Phoenix, Arizona, United States                                               
Jeff Speakman (Kenpo) -  Phoenix, Arizona, United States

Google gave me 98,000 hits on Phoenix Arizona Wing Chun.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&s....41998,-112.042694&spn=0.946776,1.029968&z=10


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## dosk3n (Jul 6, 2010)

Chat Noir said:


> If you don't see the similarities, you're not looking hard enough.


 
I just want to say that you can find similarities in anything if you look hard enough. There is similarities in In a Twix and a can of Pepsi if you look hard enough as they both go in your mouth. You seen the film 23? If you look hard enough you will always find somthing that you want to see.

However please do not take this as if I am putting you or coffeerox down in anyway. I just wanted to make that point.

I actually think you should still just learn from books and DVDs etc (We sell DVDs on our site  thought Id plug that  ).

One of our top students lived at the bottom of the country and wanted to train with our Sifu only but we are based high in the north east so it wasnt possible. So he trained up in the north east a few weeks in the year doing privates every single night then went home and just trained on his own. Forms, Wall Bag etc... He eventually moved up to the North East and trains continuously now.

The point I want to make is that our lives dont always give us the time to train and doing what you can and when you can is what matters. Even if its not the greatest aproach it is at least something. Then in the future hopefully the door will open for a better training opertunity. 

Just dont give up, youre trying and that is more than most people do these days.


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## matsu (Jul 6, 2010)

dude for what its worth i would say continue doing what youre doing anything is better than nothing despite what some might say on here.
continue to look for a way of getting someone to you or perhaps a way of getting to a class-can you get a buddy with a view of sharing the fares/fees. can one of the class come to you and train on a regular basis?
there is a lot of crap on the internet but i still use it for ideas and tips that i can incorporate into my own training.-but be prepared for a sifu to have to undo some baaaad habits after a period of you training on your own.hell if i miss a week i have habits to undo-its human nature i think.

AND i would carry on with another MA untill you can access wing chun properly.
good luck with your pursuits.
and my last point is untill chat noir stuck up for the OP i was dissaapointed in the comments made,it felt like a digging session questioning his heart instead of some helpful advice- i know forum posting and texting can be read differently than the intent it was written with but even jks andd mjs posts were hardly _supportive_ untill chat noir steamed in!!
coffeerox(great name btw) just go out and find "a" thing untill WC finds you,and keep self teaching. outa here-just my tuppence
matsu


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey Coffeerox... Phoenix is a mecca for good Wing Chun. The only excuse for not training WC/WT/VT in the Phoenix area is that you don't know what's available, since some of the best stuff goes "under the radar" and is taught in garages, parks, YMCAs and at sub-let spaces belonging to other businesses. 

I teach at the Christown YMCA in Phoenix, and at Kiwanis Park in Tempe. I may start another class at another park in the avenues. We'll see. My training partner (also doing WC/WT/VT since the late 70s and better than me) teaches in his garage in Peoria. His senior student teaches semi-privately out in Tolleson. His number two student is out in the East Valley towards Gilbert. Joy teaches Augustine Fong's WC at his home in Tempe. My Eskrima instructor also teaches a modified WC along with boxing and MMA. in the far E. Valley. There's also some EBMAS guys working privately in N. Scottsdale, and several other groups around, some teaching publicly. And if none of that works for you, I know some great FMA teachers working in parks and garages. Some top notch dudes.

Morever, if you get into a _good_ group... people will help you out. For example, one of my students was out of work, had transportation issues and couldn't afford lesson fees. But he's really dedicated... so we got together, helped line up a temporary job for him and arranged for him to car-pool with other students. Problem solved!  

So, like if you need a bike to get to the bus stops, I've got an old one I'd give you...if you were serious about training. Most instructors are like that. You just have to hold up your side of the bargain and show some dedication! So get on it dude!


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

> Hey Coffeerox... Phoenix is a mecca for good Wing Chun. The only excuse for not training WC/WT/VT in the Phoenix area is that you don't know what's available, since some of the best stuff goes "under the radar" and is taught in garages, parks, YMCAs and at sub-let spaces belonging to other businesses.


 
See, how am I supposed to know about all this? I'm a ***** guide and I'm used to looking up online directories, etc and none of this stuff came up. There's no way I could know about this unless I knew the people involved.

Like I said, I found the other stuff outside of Phoenix, there's the Baseline school which is Ip Chun/Ching > Kwok lineage but that's 2hrs away and incompatible w/ the bus on the way back. There's Keith Sonnenberg out in Scottsdale (impossible bus trip) and Gilbert from LT lineage but that's even farther than the Baseline location. Finally I found Joy's school and another home ran one in Tempe the day before I posted my thread and again found that schedules were incompatible. I've checked some Shotokan schools and I wish that there were WC schools w/ similar schedules but unfortunately that is not available.



> I teach at the Christown YMCA in Phoenix, and at Kiwanis Park in Tempe.


 
Christown is just a bus ride away so that would be something feasible in my situation.



> So, like if you need a bike to get to the bus stops, I've got an old one I'd give you


 
Thx for the offer but I have a bike, it's just badly out of commission. Sad too cause it's a good bike. I'll try to fix it and see what I can do.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 6, 2010)

How would you know? Well, you could try asking on a web forum......


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2010)

Or maybe actually contacting some of those schools that were too far away...

But, no, someone'd rather look on the web and try to do things on their own, then complain when nobody wants to play...


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2010)

matsu said:


> dude for what its worth i would say continue doing what youre doing anything is better than nothing despite what some might say on here.
> continue to look for a way of getting someone to you or perhaps a way of getting to a class-can you get a buddy with a view of sharing the fares/fees. can one of the class come to you and train on a regular basis?
> there is a lot of crap on the internet but i still use it for ideas and tips that i can incorporate into my own training.-but be prepared for a sifu to have to undo some baaaad habits after a period of you training on your own.hell if i miss a week i have habits to undo-its human nature i think.
> 
> ...


 
Speaking only for my posts, but I felt that I was supportive.  It had nothing to do with anyone 'stepping in'.  You are right, many times things online can be misunderstood...happens all the time.  However, when someone asks a question, I give a stright forward answer.  I dont sugar coat things.  I give an opinion.  Personally, I think it does a dis-service to someone if you intentionally say something with a false pretense, just to make someone feel good.  The OP in this case, came on here, stating that he was unable to train, suggestions were offered.  Apparently his situation at this time isn't suitable for those suggestions.  Of course, if someone doesnt take full advantage of those suggestions, what else is there to say?  I listed a number of schools in the area.  I mentioned alternative transportation, all of which were shot down with excuses.  What more would you like me to do?  Here are the choices:

1) Dont train. Accept the fact that your schedule isn't good at this time.  Dont complain about it, accept it!

2) Take those suggestions, and make them work.  

Additionally, the OP seems dead set on WC, which is fine, but if its not an option, again you have the above choices, or you could train in something else in the meantime, until the travel situation improves.


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Or maybe actually contacting some of those schools that were too far away...



There's no point in that if I can't get out there and come back.  That was my reasoning and it's a good reason.  I'm a usually down to business kind of guy and not very social.  Of course, if I see things are not going to work out according to what's available (such as comparing schedules, distance, fees etc) then I come to a logical conclusion that it won't work out.  

I'm used to doing business with an established set of rules.  I had no idea I could talk to these teachers and work things out.  It's not logical to me because why would they go out of their way to train me, 1 person, when they can train a group of people that does fit with what they require?



> But, no, someone'd rather look on the web and try to do things on their own, then complain when nobody wants to play...



About me complaining that nobody wants to 'play'.  That is more about the people i know, and my own community.  

If I want to make it work through online lessons then why not? I was frustrated because my own friends, who I've been there for through everything, fail to be there for me when I need them?  Is it so freaking hard to throw a full speed jab, cross, hook and uppercut?  A lot of my friends can, and some are trained to do it.  

One of my friends studies Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan, not concepts) and he lives a mere 10 minutes away and he couldn't even be bothered to come by when we made an arrangement to come.  He has been taught Chi Sao and other things from WC, so what could've been an excellent training opportunity for both of us, isn't, because people expect things out of me, but I can't receive in return.

Another of my brother's friends, we made an arrangement to start learning together.  I told him about what was going on, and he wanted to learn too, but he wasn't serious enough.  He did not come on the days we arranged and then one day pops up and he's like, aren't we supposed to train? I'm like, what? You can't just pop up randomly, and skip the days we talked about and expect to train.  

Then there's my brother, he just doesn't want to do it.  He's helped me at times so that I became familiar with the Lap Sao drill, swinging gate, etc and other things but like I said, he doesn't want to do it so every time I ask him he's off playing games or with other people.

Everybody else plays video games (Super Street Fighter 4) so outside of that hobby, they have work, family, etc and don't have time for MA.  So you can see that I feel so isolated and alone.  No schools that I've looked up, that I can get to, and nobody that I know that will work with me so I can put this into practice.

I can only look up the places that are in the phone book and Google Maps, etc so what I saw is what I used to make my assessment.  There is nothing "wrong" with what I did at all.


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2010)

I'm not JKS, but I'll comment anyways. 




coffeerox said:


> There's no point in that if I can't get out there and come back. That was my reasoning and it's a good reason. I'm a usually down to business kind of guy and not very social. Of course, if I see things are not going to work out according to what's available (such as comparing schedules, distance, fees etc) then I come to a logical conclusion that it won't work out.


 
I believe I had asked you about getting a ride from someone.  Is there nobody that'd be willing to help you out?  I know a cab is pricey, but if you want to train that bad, then IMO, it'd be worth it.  As I said in another post, you'll never know what options are available to you, if you dont ask.



> I'm used to doing business with an established set of rules. I had no idea I could talk to these teachers and work things out. It's not logical to me because why would they go out of their way to train me, 1 person, when they can train a group of people that does fit with what they require?


 
Well, IMO, a student is a student.  The teacher is still getting money...as I said in another post, money is money.  Again, if you never asked, how will you know?  Seems to me that you already have it set in your head that the teacher will say no.  Stop complaining about how they may not do this or do that, pick up the darn phone and make some calls.  You may be surprised at what you find.

This isn't to say that a teacher may still turn you down, but thats fine...you move on to the next one.





> About me complaining that nobody wants to 'play'. That is more about the people i know, and my own community.
> 
> If I want to make it work through online lessons then why not? I was frustrated because my own friends, who I've been there for through everything, fail to be there for me when I need them? Is it so freaking hard to throw a full speed jab, cross, hook and uppercut? A lot of my friends can, and some are trained to do it.
> 
> ...


 
It may be possible to join a study group, or get together with a small group in a park, backyard, garage, etc.  Some of my very best workouts have been in those settings.  Why?  Because its usually a group of people who're set one 1 thing...serious training.  No egos, no fancy gis, no worry about getting a bump, cut, scrape, just some hard work.  I'd rather work with those people any day, over a classroom setting.  Dont get me wrong, I do take classes in a school, but you have a mixture of people, some who dont take the training as serious, are afraid to get hit, etc.  Nothing wrong with working with them, but it does take awat from the more serous students.


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> About me complaining that nobody wants to 'play'.  That is more about the people i know, and my own community.


  Well, get used to that kind of disappointment and don't take it personally... I think most of us have the same problem!



coffeerox said:


> If I want to make it work through online lessons then why not? I was frustrated because my own friends, who I've been there for through everything, fail to be there for me when I need them?  *Is it so freaking hard to throw a full speed jab, cross, hook and uppercut?*  A lot of my friends can, and some are trained to do it.



Actually, I think _it is_ pretty hard for most people to learn how to throw good boxing punches without a good coach... and some decent training partners. And boxing is a very well known skill in our country. Wing Chun is far less well known, and even harder to learn without skilled partners since it is so tactile in it's training. The feeling just doesn't come across on video. 

Another thing to keep in mind., the sub-systems of WC you've been looking at are not entirely compatible. Just like different ryu of karate, the different branches of WC vary in many important ways. It won't help you to study a chop-suey mix when you are just starting out. I think it's different for advanced practitioners. If, for example, some of the folks on this forum like Jin (Chinaboxer), Mook, and Joy all got together, they could probably have an enlightening discussion about such differences. But a beginning student would just get confused. Best to find a good Sifu and stick with him for a while.



coffeerox said:


> One of my friends studies Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan, not concepts) and he lives a mere 10 minutes away and he couldn't even be bothered to come by when we made an arrangement to come...
> 
> Another of my brother's friends, we made an arrangement to start learning together.  I told him about what was going on, and he wanted to learn too, but he wasn't serious...
> 
> ...



_Yeah_, that about sums up the way most people behave, especially in regards to the martial arts. They either aren't interested, or they talk big, and half the time never even show up for training. Like I said, you gotta get used to it. I't a fact of life. Just make sure that you don't do the same thing!!!


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

> Is there nobody that'd be willing to help you out?



I keep having to emphasize this, but NO, there is NOBODY.  Hence the frustration.  That's the whole point of me making this post and saying the things I said.  THERE'S NOBODY.



> I know a cab is pricey, but if you want to train that bad, then IMO,  it'd be worth it.



I also keep emphasizing that finances are not good right now.  Sure, I can cough up the 60 bucks for the fee.  The bus ride is pretty damned expensive.  Coughing up this money also means that I have to work alongside having carpal tunnel.  If I pay for the classes and bus rides, I sacrifice my health by not allowing it to heal.  

Not only that, but making 102 (bus + fee) is also a long stretch b/c of other bills that get in the way.  I already had to quit working to regain the strength in my hands and wrists.  None of your suggestions work because they don't fit in with *my* life.  You don't know my situation.



> Well, IMO, a student is a student.  The teacher is still getting  money...as I said in another post, money is money. Again, if you never  asked, how will you know?  Seems to me that you already have it set in  your head that the teacher will say no.



I never asked because most teachers that I've seen, list private lessons in the hundreds.  I've seen it. It makes sense.  I also cannot call because I do not have a phone. Up until a few months ago I was using Skype which only costs 3 dollars for unlimited calls.  I had to cancel that.  Just consider, just consider how bad my finances are at the moment if I had to cancel a 3 dollar unlimited phone service?

I'm not worried about the teacher saying no.  Like I said, I'm down to business.  I know that most teachers charge exorbitantly for private lessons (just for trivia, Bruce Lee charged 1000) some list it, some don't.  That's just what I know.  You can't really blame me for thinking that way.



> It may be possible to join a study group, or get together with a small  group in a park, backyard, garage, etc.



That's what I wanted to do.  I know a handful of like minded people and I just listed in detail exactly why this failed.  People are either unreliable, or just don't care, because they are happy with their classes.  Why would they want to train with me?  They don't see any benefits of training with me.  I don't blame them.  I've never had a formal teacher, or a formal class, so what do I really know?


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> There's no point in that if I can't get out there and come back.  That was my reasoning and it's a good reason.  I'm a usually down to business kind of guy and not very social.  Of course, if I see things are not going to work out according to what's available (such as comparing schedules, distance, fees etc) then I come to a logical conclusion that it won't work out.
> 
> I'm used to doing business with an established set of rules.  I had no idea I could talk to these teachers and work things out.  It's not logical to me because why would they go out of their way to train me, 1 person, when they can train a group of people that does fit with what they require?


Had you simply contacted them and said "I live here... I'd love to train, but if I get there, I can't get home", they might have done anything from tell you about their friend who has a club/class right around the corner from you, to tell you that they have a student who lives on your block and can give you a ride home...  But if you simply look at a Google map, and go "nope, too far...", you'll never get anywhere.  Instead, you chose for more than a year to rely on sources that can't offer you direct correction and guidance (did you even ask any of them if they knew someone in your area?)...

Honestly, I have to wonder if the real issue is that if you actually train with a real, live instructor, they might tell you that you're doing things wrong.



> About me complaining that nobody wants to 'play'.  That is more about the people i know, and my own community.
> 
> If I want to make it work through online lessons then why not? I was frustrated because my own friends, who I've been there for through everything, fail to be there for me when I need them?  Is it so freaking hard to throw a full speed jab, cross, hook and uppercut?  A lot of my friends can, and some are trained to do it.
> 
> One of my friends studies Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan, not concepts) and he lives a mere 10 minutes away and he couldn't even be bothered to come by when we made an arrangement to come.  He has been taught Chi Sao and other things from WC, so what could've been an excellent training opportunity for both of us, isn't, because people expect things out of me, but I can't receive in return.


Then why not train WITH him rather than try get him to train you?  If he was my student, and asked me, I'd have told him not to work with you unless he was ready to teach -- and you were ready to learn.  Doesn't sound like either condition is met...


> Another of my brother's friends, we made an arrangement to start learning together.  I told him about what was going on, and he wanted to learn too, but he wasn't serious enough.  He did not come on the days we arranged and then one day pops up and he's like, aren't we supposed to train? I'm like, what? You can't just pop up randomly, and skip the days we talked about and expect to train.
> 
> Then there's my brother, he just doesn't want to do it.  He's helped me at times so that I became familiar with the Lap Sao drill, swinging gate, etc and other things but like I said, he doesn't want to do it so every time I ask him he's off playing games or with other people.
> 
> ...



Are you freakin' 12 or something?  Your friends all play video games, a few train in different things but don't honor commitments and won't train with you, transportation problems (why would you turn down an offer of a bike if yours is broken?  Even just as a loaner until you can fix your own?)...  And you're awful defensive.  

There's nothing wrong with what you did.  Where I feel you have a problem is that you're locking in on all the "cannots" instead of figuring out how to make them work.  Nor did you take the simple step of making a phone call and seeing what one of them might tell you about your options...


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I also keep emphasizing that finances are not good right now.  Sure, I can cough up the 60 bucks for the fee.  The bus ride is pretty damned expensive.  Coughing up this money also means that I have to work alongside having carpal tunnel.  If I pay for the classes and bus rides, I sacrifice my health by not allowing it to heal.
> 
> Not only that, but making 102 (bus + fee) is also a long stretch b/c of other bills that get in the way.  I already had to quit working to regain the strength in my hands and wrists.  None of your suggestions work because they don't fit in with *my* life.  You don't know my situation.


You know what?  It sounds like you've got a lot more to worry about in your life than training in martial arts.  Maybe rather than creating your own curriculum, or trying to find somewhere to train, you need to instead focus on employment and general health first?  If you've been so badly impaired that you had to stop work to regain strength, you probably shouldn't be inflicting new damage which is virtually certain in training.


> I'm not worried about the teacher saying no.  Like I said, I'm down to business.  I know that most teachers charge exorbitantly for private lessons (just for trivia, Bruce Lee charged 1000) some list it, some don't.  That's just what I know.  You can't really blame me for thinking that way.


I don't charge my students anything for private lessons.  I know I'm not the only one... You just have to be a member of the club, and attend class regularly.


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

jks, might as well stop replying cause I'm ignoring you from here on out.  Welcome to coffee's infamous ignore list.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 6, 2010)

You don't like what folks are telling you. Too bad.

I found dozens of possibilities on Google, you however have to make phone calls, send emails etc.

I'm seeing you list alot of excuses. If you were serious, you'd find solutions. You've been given enough solid advice. Yes, they don't know your case. Well, you don't know theirs.  Folks here have beaten pretty much the same obstacles you face...lack of money, lack of transportation, lack of nearby possibilities, etc.

We aren't going to do the contacts for you.


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

> Another thing to keep in mind., the sub-systems of WC you've been  looking at are not entirely compatible. Just like different ryu of  karate, the different branches of WC vary in many important ways. It  won't help you to study a chop-suey mix when you are just starting out.


Yep I'm well aware of that.  I understand that from outside looking in, it looks like 'chop-suey'.  Heck I feel that way about Jeet Kune Do concepts and Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do.

I might not know all the differences between the systems, but I do recognize (and study) the differences.  For example, William Cheung's Wu Sao covers the face rather than the traditional mid level in his SNT form.  



Michael Wong's dummy form uses two vertical closed fist strikes rather than two open palm strikes.
William Cheung's dummy form includes footwork not found in others.
Wong Shun Leung's dummy form has 138 moves instead of traditional 116
There are mainland China forms that performs a strike with a Fook Sao (I've seen Michael W. do this too) at the end of the movement.
Michael Wong's system prefers a neutral, boxing like stance rather than lead leg, man/wu sao
Another of difference of MW's system, he prefers hard powerful strikes to disable an opponent in as few hits as possible.  He teaches and emphasizes limb destruction when possible.

It's like Bruce Lee said in his Tao of Jeet Kune Do.  When he was young, a punch was a punch, and kick was a kick.  When he learned a system, a punch was no longer a punch, and a kick was no longer just a kick.  Once he became proficient in that system, a punch was a punch and kick was a kick.


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

I constantly feel like I have to keep defending myself here when people could simply read what I have to say.



> You don't like what folks are telling you. Too bad.



It's not like I have a problem with what people are telling me.  In fact I've found posts in here informative as a matter of fact.  Look at jks's first paragraph, he talks about "contact" and I emphasize that I cancelled a 3 dollar phone.  He made this post after I made mine, which showed me he didn't read squat.

jks and why I ignored him is because he has a crappy attitude that I've found across many many forums.  Instead of being helpful, he consistently attacks me and finds new ways to attack me.  I'm not an idiot, I've been all around the block.



> I found dozens of possibilities on Google, you however have to make  phone calls, send emails etc.



I found those same possibilities.  In fact, in the link that you posted, showed exactly what I told you in POST NUMBER ONE.  There was 1 school listed in Phoenix that is two hours away, and everything else in the surrounding areas outside of Phoenix.

If you look closer, those possibilities start narrowing down.  There's the Kwok school, the Tempe, Scottsdale school, a home ran school in Anthem, AZ (but is listed as Phoenix).  It goes that way until Page 3 which is actually this thread LMAO!  I get paid to do searches so I'm well aware of how far those results go.

I've found one new possible result and it's at a Karate school.  I have to call and/or email the teacher there.  Other than that, I've been as through as I can be in my search.


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## Poor Uke (Jul 7, 2010)

Crazy thing this. I have two WC schools within walking distance one of whic is rubbish bui the other is very very good but do I go there any more? Not really I spend 2 hours travelling each way twice a week to get to an Arnis school 

Good luck Coffee hope you find something you can sink your teeth into.


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## matsu (Jul 7, 2010)

Ok now it's starting to sound like ur a victim mate, where it's just not ur fault and that's just gonna irritate the hell out of a lot of peopple on here trying to help you out.
Perhaps if u had asked on here before you decided to quit then guys would b more positive in their posts. 
As been said you got few options find wc place and work hard to get there. Train in something else. Or none of the above. 
All down to you now brother!!
Matsu
and guys- this was first time on the forum I felt as I read some responses were less than helpful. This surprised me so I commented .... But I get the feeling here if someone won't help themselves then....... So I won't b so quick to judge next time lol.


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> If I want to make it work through online lessons then why not? I was frustrated because my own friends, who I've been there for through everything, fail to be there for me when I need them? Is it so freaking hard to throw a full speed jab, cross, hook and uppercut? A lot of my friends can, and some are trained to do it.
> 
> One of my friends studies Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan, not concepts) and he lives a mere 10 minutes away and he couldn't even be bothered to come by when we made an arrangement to come. He has been taught Chi Sao and other things from WC, so what could've been an excellent training opportunity for both of us, isn't, because people expect things out of me, but I can't receive in return.
> 
> ...


 
Sounds to me like you need to stop calling these people friends and find some new friends.  Nothing you can do about your brother, just dis-own him.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Sounds to me like you need to stop calling these people friends and find some new friends. Nothing you can do about your brother, just dis-own him.


 

Or perhaps stop being so needy? Friendship works both ways, perhaps nagging them has the opposite effect of that which was desired. As for the brother perhaps he's wiser than appears. He's helped as it is why should he put his life aside the minute his brother decides he wants to train, smacks of tantrums and childishness that.

To a great extent a martial art is a martial art so train something thats close whatever it is if you so desparately want to train. If you need to do something, do any style thats available to you, your chosen style will still be around when you can get back to it and you will have gained experience even if it's in Judo, BJJ, MMA or whatever.


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 7, 2010)

Coffeerox,

If you give up or quit, then you haven't learned anything from Wing Chun thus far.  Giving up is the opposite of what Wing Chun is about, which is never giving up stay with what comes, continue or follow through with the situation, go forward as the problem disappears.  One of the basic precepts of the system, stay with what comes, follow through as it retreats, go forward as you are freed, can be put into every situation.

So, you've sought and couldn't find, stayed the course and asked for help, now given solutions, go and train (Wing Chun).  It sounds like the options are available for you to do it (Geezer), so now go for it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 7, 2010)

Sidebar.  I want to learn Japanese sword. However the nearest school teaches kendo, not what I want and not at a rate I can afford. Next nearest school is about 2 hrs away, and I need a passport to get there (which I now have). However, I don't currently own a car and can't afford the trip. So I've adapted.  I've worked a bit with someone to show me some Burmese sword work, and some Chinese sword work who are local and within my budgets (ok, it was free, I asked and I received).  Eventually, I'll have a car (been shopping this week) and the free time to finally try and connect with the folks doing Japanese sword.  But it's taken me a few years to get to this point.

So what's my point?
Stop whining, find something to do now, work on pulling the resources you need to reach your goal together, and when it starts to become possible, go for it.

Anything else is a cop out.

Oh, and as to carpeltunnel.....sucks a lot doesn't it?  I've had it for 20 years. Wraps, braces, painkillers and sheer willpower get me through it.


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## coffeerox (Jul 7, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Sounds to me like you need to stop calling these people friends and find some new friends.  Nothing you can do about your brother, just dis-own him.



Well, I'm not *as* close to them anymore as a matter of fact.  My brother has pretty much been disowned.  He's leeched off of me for the last time.  Part of the reason why I have this carpal tunnel is because of him.  He believes that it doesn't hurt anybody else that he does nothing when in fact he hurts everybody around him by doing nothing.  We can't say anything without him blowing up at us.  He's 24 btw.



> Or perhaps stop being so needy?


How am I being needy?  I've been very cautious as to when I can ask them for help.  For instance, two of them were going to spar.  Boxing vs JKD but the boxer found out he didn't have time, so I mentioned that I did and that I could use some practice yet he skipped out when it came to me.  He wouldn't skip out if it was the boxer.  I've known this guy for years.



> Friendship works both ways, perhaps  nagging them has the opposite effect of that which was desired.


Who said I'm nagging? You people make crazy accusations.  I've asked everybody one time, at opportune moments when they were free and they flat out refused or made up excuses.  I told you in a previous post that I've always been there for my friends but when it comes time to be there for me, they are nowhere to be found.



> One of the basic precepts of the system, stay with what comes, follow  through as it retreats, go forward as you are freed, can be put into  every situation.


Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Chung


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## bekkilyn (Jul 7, 2010)

It sounds like you're not currently in a life situation that allows to be extremely choosy when it comes to a martial arts training style. The people both on these forums and other places have many times emphasized that it is teacher rather than any particular art that is most valuable. If you can find *a* good teacher in *a* martial art that fits your schedule and your budget, then do it. It doesn't matter whether it's Wing Chun, Judo, Karate, TKD, etc. If the teacher is good, then you're going to learn good stuff regardless of style.

When your life situation changes to allow more choices and you have more opportunities to train in Wing Chun, then the experience you've gained in the art you've been studying will be very helpful to it, or to anything else you decide to do.

If you find that you absolutely cannot find anywhere to train in any martial art whatsoever in your area that meets your current circumstances, then train in general fitness. If you work on general endurance, speed, strength, etc., then these will also be helpful in a martial art once you have the chance to officially train. You don't need a lot of expensive equipment to get more fit. You can do it your house, backyard, public parks...anywhere.

Keep in mind that you aren't going to be in these circumstances forever. Life is ever-changing.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2010)

Webfu :mst:


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## coffeerox (Jul 7, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Webfu :mst:



I do web searches for what used to be a good living, so a lot of the links and keyword searches, etc have already been done for awhile now.  I appreciate it though.  

I do searches every once in awhile and I run into a wall.  But thanks to this thread, people have shown me a different way to look at it and through that I've found a couple more possibilities. If I didn't want helpful replies I wouldn't have posted this thread.



> So what's my point?
> Stop whining, find something to do now, work on pulling the resources  you need to reach your goal together, and when it starts to become  possible, go for it.



How am I whining? That's your perception, not truly representative of what I mean.  I took a lot of consideration to come to this conclusion.  Lack of funds, can't work due to carpal, distance and it's incompatibility with my transportation method, nobody around me wanting to train, etc.

Based on multiple factors, I decided that it would be better for me to concentrate on doing cardio, improving my health. Restoring function to my hands so that I can work seriously again. Finding a new job. 

Martial arts is just not in the cards for me at this time.  We came to this conclusion earlier remember? That's what this whole thread is about.  People just want to keep pressing the issue and interrogating me.  There's a certain way I respond to that and believe me, you haven't seen anything yet.

I'm not saying that it's impossible and that it cannot be worked through.  I don't believe that at all.  People who know me, know that I do anything and everything to create a workaround (come on now.  I took a DIY approach to Wing Chun b/c that was the only option I had. who else would do that?)

As for other comments.  I'm not afraid of criticism.  In fact, I receive criticism on a daily basis and I always knock it down if it's offensive and I always yield if I know that I could be wrong, or something could be improved. I was going to post a video of me doing SNT in fact but the webcam I had access too turned out to be insufficient for the cause.


----------



## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I keep having to emphasize this, but NO, there is NOBODY. Hence the frustration. That's the whole point of me making this post and saying the things I said. THERE'S NOBODY.


 
You have no family, friends, etc., that would be willing to help you?





> I also keep emphasizing that finances are not good right now. Sure, I can cough up the 60 bucks for the fee. The bus ride is pretty damned expensive. Coughing up this money also means that I have to work alongside having carpal tunnel. If I pay for the classes and bus rides, I sacrifice my health by not allowing it to heal.
> 
> Not only that, but making 102 (bus + fee) is also a long stretch b/c of other bills that get in the way. I already had to quit working to regain the strength in my hands and wrists. None of your suggestions work because they don't fit in with *my* life. You don't know my situation.


 
So in a nutshell, this 4 page thread is pretty much a waste of time then?  Basically a vent session, telling everyone that you want to train, but nothing seems to be working for you?





> I never asked because most teachers that I've seen, list private lessons in the hundreds. I've seen it. It makes sense. I also cannot call because I do not have a phone. Up until a few months ago I was using Skype which only costs 3 dollars for unlimited calls. I had to cancel that. Just consider, just consider how bad my finances are at the moment if I had to cancel a 3 dollar unlimited phone service?
> 
> I'm not worried about the teacher saying no. Like I said, I'm down to business. I know that most teachers charge exorbitantly for private lessons (just for trivia, Bruce Lee charged 1000) some list it, some don't. That's just what I know. You can't really blame me for thinking that way.


 
I doubt the average teacher is going to charge that much. Heres an example.  A friend of mine is a brown belt under Roy Harris in BJJ.  $80 for 1hr. with my friend.  Thats not bad, IMO.  I'd be willing to bet that it'd be at least double were I to take a lesson with Roy.  Again, you wont know unless you ask.





> That's what I wanted to do. I know a handful of like minded people and I just listed in detail exactly why this failed. People are either unreliable, or just don't care, because they are happy with their classes. Why would they want to train with me? They don't see any benefits of training with me. I don't blame them. I've never had a formal teacher, or a formal class, so what do I really know?


 
You know a handful of like minded people, but then you ask why they'd want to train with you?  Lost me on that one. 

As I said earlier, it looks like you're going to just have to put training on the back burner for a while.


----------



## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> I constantly feel like I have to keep defending myself here when people could simply read what I have to say.


 
NO we are reading what you say, but you dont want to hear what anyone else has to say.  Its 1 excuse after the next.  IMO, you need to get your priorities on order.





> It's not like I have a problem with what people are telling me. In fact I've found posts in here informative as a matter of fact. Look at jks's first paragraph, he talks about "contact" and I emphasize that I cancelled a 3 dollar phone. He made this post after I made mine, which showed me he didn't read squat.


 
But you have internet access?  Or are you using a friends or at the library?  



> jks and why I ignored him is because he has a crappy attitude that I've found across many many forums. Instead of being helpful, he consistently attacks me and finds new ways to attack me. I'm not an idiot, I've been all around the block.


 
Perhaps its because YOU are not hearing what YOU want to hear!  People, myself included, are offering countless suggestions, and for every one that we suggest, you counter with an excuse.  Its getting a bit old.  Again, its VERY obvious training isnt in the cards for you right now.  Instead of bitching about it, on a 4 page thread, get your priorities in order first, and worry about training later.

Im sorry if this sounds harsh, or you dont like what I or others are saying, but as I said, I dont sugar coat things.  Someone asks me a question, I give them a straight forward answer.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 7, 2010)

This looks like a job for Clue by Four!


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## coffeerox (Jul 7, 2010)

> NO we are reading what you say, but you dont want to hear what anyone  else has to say.  Its 1 excuse after the next.  IMO, you need to get  your priorities on order.



How about the fact that I said I did not have a phone yet the very next post, kept telling me to call this, call that.  

How about the fact that I said my funds were very tight right now, and you kept pressing about taxi cabs and **** like that?

YOU DID NOT READ PERIOD.



> But you have internet access?  Or are you using a friends or at the  library?



I'm very lucky to have internet access. My leech of a brother has always done nothing and it's always been up to me to pay it,  I work data entry and do not get paid very much.  There's lots of things that I needed but could not get b/c this one bill (which should be a group effort) ongoing late fees, past dues, etc.  I decided enough was enough, that I needed time for myself and I passed the bill onto him.  Having internet next month doesn't even look good right now.  I lose internet, I lose access to my job.



> Instead of bitching about it, on a 4 page thread, get your priorities in  order first, and worry about training later.



No ****!  But people keep adding fuel to the fire and my reaction is to try to put it out.


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> How about the fact that I said I did not have a phone yet the very next post, kept telling me to call this, call that.
> 
> How about the fact that I said my funds were very tight right now, and you kept pressing about taxi cabs and **** like that?
> 
> YOU DID NOT READ PERIOD.


 
And here we have yet another excuse.  First of all, chill out dude.  No need to get huffy.  Second of all, you have no friends, neighbors, nobody that will let you use a phone?  And third, you've made it very clear that your funds are tight.  So let me ask...why the hell did you start this thread?  For sympathy?  





> I'm very lucky to have internet access. My leech of a brother has always done nothing and it's always been up to me to pay it, I work data entry and do not get paid very much. There's lots of things that I needed but could not get b/c this one bill (which should be a group effort) ongoing late fees, past dues, etc. I decided enough was enough, that I needed time for myself and I passed the bill onto him. Having internet next month doesn't even look good right now. I lose internet, I lose access to my job.
> 
> 
> 
> No ****! But people keep adding fuel to the fire and my reaction is to try to put it out.


 
Again, you need to get your priorities in order.  Training is nothing to worry about right now.  I wish you well.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> How about the fact that I said I did not have a phone yet the very next post, kept telling me to call this, call that.
> 
> How about the fact that I said my funds were very tight right now, and you kept pressing about taxi cabs and **** like that?
> 
> ...


 

I believe America has pay phones which I doubt cost very much so it wasn't wrong telling you to call. 

Firstly I would start by looking for another job, perhaps even one that comes with accomodation, make a new start. I wouldn't worry about martial arts at this moment, sort your life out first. 

A lot of us here don't 'do' sympathy but we do practical help and advice. It's no good us going 'oh you poor thing', it will do nothing to help you other than letting you sink into self pity. the thing to remember is that if you fall down seven times you bloody well get up eight times. So get up, get yourself a job somewhere else, anywhere else, don't look down your nose at any job, McDonalds might not be the best but it's a job, it pays money. Once you have a little money, start looking for places to train. the people here will tell you how to go about getting the best for the cheapest, we are all in a recession so your condition isn't unknown to us. Your fate is in your own hands not your brothers or your friends, it's up to yu to get out from under and make something of yourself.

One question, rather important..how old are you?


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## coffeerox (Jul 7, 2010)

> Second of all, you have no friends, neighbors, nobody that will let you  use a phone?



You quoted me telling you nobody, this is an answer I've already provided.



> One question, rather important..how old are you?



so I can be criticized even more further? I'm 26.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2010)

I just reread this entire thread




coffeerox said:


> I hope to get a new job and move down to Tempe or Mesa and finally get a formal education so that I'm not mocked by people for learning it myself.


 
Sounds like a plan



geezer said:


> I teach at the Christown YMCA in Phoenix, and at Kiwanis Park in Tempe. I may start another class at another park in the avenues. We'll see. My training partner (also doing WC/WT/VT since the late 70s and better than me) teaches in his garage in Peoria. His senior student teaches semi-privately out in Tolleson. His number two student is out in the East Valley towards Gilbert. Joy teaches Augustine Fong's WC at his home in Tempe. My Eskrima instructor also teaches a modified WC along with boxing and MMA. in the far E. Valley. There's also some EBMAS guys working privately in N. Scottsdale, and several other groups around, some teaching publicly. And if none of that works for you, I know some great FMA teachers working in parks and garages. Some top notch dudes.
> 
> Morever, if you get into a good group... people will help you out. For example, one of my students was out of work, had transportation issues and couldn't afford lesson fees. But he's really dedicated... so we got together, helped line up a temporary job for him and arranged for him to car-pool with other students. Problem solved!
> 
> So, like if you need a bike to get to the bus stops, I've got an old one I'd give you...if you were serious about training. Most instructors are like that. You just have to hold up your side of the bargain and show some dedication! So get on it dude!


 
OK it appears the Wing Chun problem may have been solved about two pages ago


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> You quoted me telling you nobody, this is an answer I've already provided.
> 
> 
> 
> *so I can be criticized even more further? I'm 26*.


 
Not in the least! to me ( being old) you are very young still ( yeah I know how annoying that is when people say that lol) , my daughter is only a year younger and my son several years older. You are too young to be set in your ways, still have your life in front of you.


I don't do CMA but I imagine it's hard to do on your own. If stuck training on your own chose something simpler for the time being. You can I believe download Bas Ruttan's Muay Thai work outs as well as his all round workouts, if you can't I will quite happily send you CDs ( I'm sure the UK ones are the same as the US ones?). This means you can train on your own, it's not complicated stuff but it's something and you can do it on your own with or without a punch bag.
 It's frustrating not being to train as you want, I find it awful that I'm too old to fight so I ref and help train others, we all have to compromise somewhere along the line but whereas I'm only going to get older (argh, depressing thought!) you can make things better for youself. Let your guard down a bit here and you'll find people friendlier. we are a nice lot really, honest! :ultracool


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2010)

MJS said:


> Again, you need to get your priorities in order.  Training is nothing to worry about right now.  I wish you well.



Can't say I agree. Yes, _MJS_, you're right about the first part. As _Coffeerox_ himself has said, he needs to get his life together. On the other hand, committing yourself to MA training can be a great way to start getting it together, rather than just sitting around and getting really negative. On the "beginners" sub-forum there was a similar question raised. Somebody posted saying that they were really out of shape and asked if they should wait and get fit first before starting MA. Most everybody responded to the effect of, _"NO! Just get started and you will get fit as you train"._ I'd say the same thing to _Coffeerox_. Start training and you might find the motivation to improve your situation!

In fact, I just started a new thread in the "Beginners Corner" to consider this very question. Please join me there.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> Can't say I agree. Yes, _MJS_, you're right about the first part. As _Coffeerox_ himself has said, he needs to get his life together. On the other hand, committing yourself to MA training can be a great way to start getting it together, rather than just sitting around and getting really negative. On the "beginners" sub-forum there was a similar question raised. Somebody posted saying that they were really out of shape and asked if they should wait and get fit first before starting MA. Most everybody responded to the effect of, _"NO! Just get started and you will get fit as you train"._ I'd say the same thing to _Coffeerox_. Start training and you might find the motivation to improve your situation!
> 
> In fact, I just started a new thread in the "Beginners Corner" to consider this very question. Please join me there.


 
It Helped Robert Downey Jr


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

geezer said:


> Can't say I agree. Yes, _MJS_, you're right about the first part. As _Coffeerox_ himself has said, he needs to get his life together. On the other hand, committing yourself to MA training can be a great way to start getting it together, rather than just sitting around and getting really negative. On the "beginners" sub-forum there was a similar question raised. Somebody posted saying that they were really out of shape and asked if they should wait and get fit first before starting MA. Most everybody responded to the effect of, _"NO! Just get started and you will get fit as you train"._ I'd say the same thing to _Coffeerox_. Start training and you might find the motivation to improve your situation!
> 
> In fact, I just started a new thread in the "Beginners Corner" to consider this very question. Please join me there.


 
I see your point and I do agree, the MA's can be a great way of getting your life in order.  However, in this case, the OP seems to not have the following:

1) A phone
2) A reliable mode of transportation.
3) Any friends that will help him
4) Any family that will help him.
5) A stable source of income.

There may be more, but I think you get my point.  It seems to me that martial arts training will not be possible, due to the 5 things I listed.  That is why I suggested that the OP get his priorities together before seeking out MA training.  I mean really, if you dont have a reliable source of transportation, how are you going to get there?  Seems like my suggestions of a cab and bus and a ride from a friend and/or family, were shot down.

I stand by my comments.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

MJS said:


> I see your point and I do agree, the MA's can be a great way of getting your life in order. However, in this case, the OP seems to not have the following:
> 
> *1) A phone*
> *2) A reliable mode of transportation.*
> ...


 

Geezer, a far better thing than castigating us would be to suggest ways the OP can overcome the above five points holding him back...now that would be of use to him!


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## jks9199 (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> How about the fact that I said I did not have a phone yet the very next post, kept telling me to call this, call that.
> 
> How about the fact that I said my funds were very tight right now, and you kept pressing about taxi cabs and **** like that?
> 
> YOU DID NOT READ PERIOD.


Actually, I did.  Unfortunately, I responded to some posts before reading subsequent posts, so information in a later post may not have been reflected in that reply.  Other times, we may have cross posted, where my reply was in the works while you posted your own.

But let's take that pesky phone issue.  You got feet?  One of my biggest complaints about some newer officers is their willingness to accept phone interviews...  rather than make arrangements to go out and actually talk to someone face to face.  I hate talking on the phone; I'll often go out of my way to actually meet a person.  What about sending a letter through the mail?  Yeah, it's slow.  But it works.  Hell, did you try email?

Someone OFFERED you a bike.  And your response was "No; I have one that's broken."  Dude, a broken bike is an expensive paperweight.  Unless you want another excuse -- which is exactly what I think you were after.



> I'm very lucky to have internet access. My leech of a brother has always done nothing and it's always been up to me to pay it,  I work data entry and do not get paid very much.  There's lots of things that I needed but could not get b/c this one bill (which should be a group effort) ongoing late fees, past dues, etc.  I decided enough was enough, that I needed time for myself and I passed the bill onto him.  Having internet next month doesn't even look good right now.  I lose internet, I lose access to my job.
> 
> 
> 
> No ****!  But people keep adding fuel to the fire and my reaction is to try to put it out.


Of course, it's always someone else's fault.  Step up and take some responsibility for your own choices and actions.  You keep saying "if it was only 2008"... which is about when you apparently started your do-it-yourself idea. 

You might find these two blog entries by Rory Miller interesting and instructive:
That's  Amazing!
Permission

Look, it's really simple.  If training in Wing Chun, Sumito, or whatever is what you want to do -- you'll make it happen.  If you're making excuses, and it's always someone else's fault that things aren't working... maybe you need to look somewhere else first.  It sure seems like nobody wants to work with you -- even when they were going to work out anyway.  That suggests that just maybe, you need to look at things from a different perspective...  Sometimes, when we look around and find everyone disagreeing with us -- maybe, just maybe, we're wrong ourselves, no?


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> You quoted me telling you nobody, this is an answer I've already provided.
> 
> 
> 
> so I can be criticized even more further? I'm 26.


 
Wow...we're going on 5 pages now.  I must enjoy punishing myself, as I keep replying. LOL.  Anyways....I dont know what to tell ya man, other than what I already have.  My suggestions....again...are: find a stable means of transportation.  Bicycle, moped, motorcycle, car, anything that works and can get you from point a to point b.  Find a stable source of income.  Reason why I put the transportation first, is because without that, you wont be able to get to the job.  

Other than that, I dont know what else to say.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

A quick aside about letters, most people I know actually like getting them. employers see it as someone taking the time to put pen to paper which means trouble is taken and shows a willingness to put oneself out. People love a thank you letter rather than a text or email, shows consideration. Lovers cherish letters on paper, again, so much better  than a text or email. Soldiers on deployment love letters too, they're personal and warm so find a soldier to write to.

Ok back on track now!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 7, 2010)

Actually, there's some excellent advice by Larry Winget that seems to fit...."If your life sucks, it's because you suck.". So...stop sucking. Simple.   I see a ton of excuses. A ton of "reasons why I can't".  A ton of fingers pointed at other people. "My job doesn't pay well". So get a better job. Get -another- job. Get a different job. Start a business you can work from home on the side 1day a week. etc.  "My brother x". Phooey on your brother. Find someone else. "My friends x". Phooey on your friends. Find different ones, find better ones, find new ones, etc.  "I don't have a phone". Borrow one. Drop 25c in a pay phone. Ask a neighbor, your landlord, one of those previously mentioned friends. "I don't have a car, the bus and cab are too expensive, and my bike is busted and it's too far to walk.". wah wah wah.  Bum a ride, suck it up and fix the income problem then get there. You got offered a bike, dude I woulda taken the offer, got things done, then passed the bike on to another hard-luck person in a few months.

Seriously, nothing in that list is a game killer, except the 'excuses'.  It seems you want us to "understand" your obstacles, and 'sympathize" with you.

Sorry, no sympathy here. No compassion, and most importantly, no caring. NMP. Not. My. Problem. That whole, I've got my own list of obstacles, ironically much the same.  No car, income level sucks, training I want is too far away. Medical issues. Hey, I got spinal damage AND carpel tunnel. Oh and right now, no AC and my flat's fracking 100'F right now. And....and who the hell cares about the rest of the list. You do what you can do, you do what you have to do, until you make things better and can make things change. Period.  That means sucking it up, popping pain pills and dealing, period.   

Like Larry, and I said. If your life sucks, it's because you suck. So, stop sucking.
I'm done.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Actually, there's some excellent advice by Larry Winget that seems to fit...."If your life sucks, it's because you suck.". So...stop sucking. Simple. I see a ton of excuses. A ton of "reasons why I can't". A ton of fingers pointed at other people. "My job doesn't pay well". So get a better job. Get -another- job. Get a different job. Start a business you can work from home on the side 1day a week. etc. "My brother x". Phooey on your brother. Find someone else. "My friends x". Phooey on your friends. Find different ones, find better ones, find new ones, etc. "I don't have a phone". Borrow one. Drop 25c in a pay phone. Ask a neighbor, your landlord, one of those previously mentioned friends. "I don't have a car, the bus and cab are too expensive, and my bike is busted and it's too far to walk.". wah wah wah. Bum a ride, suck it up and fix the income problem then get there. You got offered a bike, dude I woulda taken the offer, got things done, then passed the bike on to another hard-luck person in a few months.
> 
> Seriously, nothing in that list is a game killer, except the 'excuses'. It seems you want us to "understand" your obstacles, and 'sympathize" with you.
> 
> ...


 

You know sucking can be good sometimes, right?  :wink2:


See I knew there was a reason we don't use that phrase!

We would say.... get a life!

I'm sure the Aussies have something very pithy along the same lines.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2010)

This thread popped up again, while it may not be of use to the OP it does prove there's people who are willing to help others train.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76042


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## Tensei85 (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Yep I'm well aware of that. I understand that from outside looking in, it looks like 'chop-suey'. Heck I feel that way about Jeet Kune Do concepts and Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do.
> 
> I might not know all the differences between the systems, but I do recognize (and study) the differences. For example, William Cheung's Wu Sao covers the face rather than the traditional mid level in his SNT form.
> 
> ...


 
That's a great observation! However as any beginner your only looking at it from a technique perspective which is to be expected from someone with virtually no training from a Sifu - Student atmosphere. 

You might see that William Cheung has a Wu Sau that covers his face, and Michael Wong has two vertical Punches but "Do You Know Why"?

Do you know the subtleties of how their postures are utilized? Do you know why they utilize the concepts that they do?

I've seen hundreds of Wing Chun students that have been training for 5+ years and had their heads up their butt's, they were pretty well clueless, how do you think you can rise above this as a quiet observer? Without even having a Sifu?

I'm sorry but in Chinese Martial Arts especially, we have always utilized the need for a qualified Sifu to teach his "to dai". It's nothing against you but that's how it works, that's why I disagree with what a lot of persons have stated about learning online, books, etc... I don't feel its completely illogical or doesn't have a reason to it, but my entire point is that their are so many clueless, not so good Martial Artist out there that have great Instructors, so how can you be a 1/2 decent one without??

For me it comes down to Work hard, Train hard, Recover, Research & take all your Instructors advice but in a logical way so again research it.

Sorry if this is coming as an insult to you, as I don't mean it personally. I'm just a little worried about Youtube warriors thinking what they are obtaining is genuine. (That's just my thought, probably biased maybe incorrect but take it for what its worth)

Again I think you've solidified you don't want to train M.A. so enjoy video games.

Take Care,


----------



## coffeerox (Jul 7, 2010)

> Do you know the subtleties of how their postures are utilized?



For example, in Chu Shong Tin's SNT, the Wu Sao coming in is actually the elbow sinking and not the joint moving the arm forward/backward.  The Fook Sao coming out is very relaxed so as not to train the muscles.  These two concepts (and more) are practiced when I do SNT.

About William Cheung's Wu Sao.  Sifu Phillip Redmond told me himself that it covers the face for high attacks.  



> how do you think you can rise above this as a quiet observer? Without even having a Sifu?



Because my Kung Fu is great. I'm not like other people.  The things that I choose to do, I excel at.  I pick up things really quick and I perform analysis and contemplate on things that other people don't do.  My SNT gradually got better and better because I constantly studied and analyzed various sources to gain insight on the form.  I was learning something new every day.  I admit, I do not know where I stand compared to other people but I am doing the best I can with what I have.

Not just martial arts, but I'm a do-it-yourself person for nearly everything.  I learned how to build and configure computers by myself.  I fixed my own PS3, did my own pest control.  I'm just at a point where I'm used to teaching myself how to do things and a large part of that is drawing upon resources and following directions.


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## MJS (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> For example, in Chu Shong Tin's SNT, the Wu Sao coming in is actually the elbow sinking and not the joint moving the arm forward/backward. The Fook Sao coming out is very relaxed so as not to train the muscles. These two concepts (and more) are practiced when I do SNT.
> 
> About William Cheung's Wu Sao. Sifu Phillip Redmond told me himself that it covers the face for high attacks.
> 
> ...


 
2 questions for you:

1) Looking at this post and others, you state that you have a WC background.  What happened to that school, that you had to leave?

2)  Am I safe to assume that at one point, while you were training, you had money, transportation, etc.?


----------



## Tensei85 (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> For example, in Chu Shong Tin's SNT, the Wu Sao coming in is actually the elbow sinking and not the joint moving the arm forward/backward. The Fook Sao coming out is very relaxed so as not to train the muscles. These two concepts (and more) are practiced when I do SNT
> 
> Because my Kung Fu is great. I'm not like other people. The things that I choose to do, I excel at. I pick up things really quick and I perform analysis and contemplate on things that other people don't do. My SNT gradually got better and better because I constantly studied and analyzed various sources to gain insight on the form. I was learning something new every day. I admit, I do not know where I stand compared to other people but I am doing the best I can with what I have.
> 
> .


 
Ok, let me say this you stated that your SNT gradually got better as you analyzed and....... 

Thats great but how do you know?, because your utilizing your own opinion to validate what you have or haven't obtained?? Which is coming from what experience?  

Dude what your doing is going to a Chinese restaurant & mixing everything you can find from whatever bar you can find & analyze it to see if it's good and call it SNT, that doesn't make any sense. There is always a reason to & why we perform SNT/SLT the way we do. I'm not disagreeing with you on analyzing things and making them your own, that should be the goal of all of us as striving Martial Artist, but you have to have something to begin with before you undertake such a valiant journey. Otherwise its just "chop socky" or Lap Sap. 

I'm glad you have a desire to learn & are dedicating your time & efforts based on whatever & whenever you can. That's great, props to you. 

There's a lot of W.C. guys in the Phoenix area, I wouldn't be suprised if you asked nicely if you couldn't get a Sifu to stop by even at your own home for lessons but you have to show a desire to learn & make the effort. Instructors look for that in a propsective student, show that to them & realize your dreams but in a more reliable manner. 

But I'm out of here, take my advice or leave it either way I wish you the best & enjoy!


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 7, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> Because my Kung Fu is great. I'm not like other people. The things that I choose to do, I excel at. I pick up things really quick and I perform analysis and contemplate on things that other people don't do. My SNT gradually got better and better because I constantly studied and analyzed various sources to gain insight on the form. I was learning something new every day. I admit, I do not know where I stand compared to other people but I am doing the best I can with what I have.


 
You could have gone all day long and not said that.  With an attitude like that, I would never let you through my kwoon door.  Your cup is not empty and you forgot to check your ego at the door.  I've heard that second line, along with all the others, a hundred times or more and each time it scares me.  A majority of the time, people who use that, I find, are a waste of my time because:

1.  They don't want to do it the way I teach it.
2.  Too busy trying to impress everyone with what they think they know.
3.  Think they are above everyone else in skill and knowledge.
4.  Their fellow students don't like them and won't train with them.
5.  I always have to prove to them why it's done this way instead of them finding out for themselves.  
6.  There's too much conflict between them and me because they won't give it a chance.

Empty your cup and leave your ego at home, otherwise, you won't be training very long . . . .at any school you attend.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> For example, in Chu Shong Tin's SNT, the Wu Sao coming in is actually the elbow sinking and not the joint moving the arm forward/backward. The Fook Sao coming out is very relaxed so as not to train the muscles.


 
Well that's not quite correct , its actually a combination of the elbow sinking and the expansion and contraction of the angle at the elbow joint.

If all we did was raise and sink the elbow we would be training our elbow force to go up and down instead of directed forward towards the opponent where it can do the most damage.


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## coffeerox (Jul 8, 2010)

you guys make an awful lot of assumptions.


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## dosk3n (Jul 8, 2010)

Im not a sifu but if I was I know if someone came to me showing real interest in learning but explained there situation I would be happy to go to there home and give them a few lessons until they had the ability to pay.

I know I wouldnt give them constant training but I would still pop by to correct mistakes and help how I could.

I guess Im just kind lol.


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## MJS (Jul 8, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> you guys make an awful lot of assumptions.


 
Actually, I think alot of people are spot on with their assumptions.  6 pages....has anything productive come out of this?  If we're lucky this thread will be closed soon.


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## coffeerox (Jul 8, 2010)

> Actually, I think alot of people are spot on with their assumptions.



You're not spot on with ****.  I'm calling for a thread lock, better stop me soon.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2010)

*ADMIN NOTE: THREAD LOCKED*

This has become a pointless rehash. Rather than continue to see it decline into a flame war, I'm locking it. The OP has a huge pile of solid advice. He can use it, or not.


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