# What is your self defense specialty?



## Steve (Jul 7, 2021)

Well, I considered bring back a thread from 2006 on Self Defense.  A lot of good, general definitions in that thread.  But figured it would be better to just start a new one.

We talk a lot about self defense in broad terms.  A lot of posts along the lines of dealing with a threat to your physical or mental safety.  But I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding.  So, if you think about a bouncer as being a specialist in a particular area of self defense.  Or a cop, or an MMA fighter, or anyone else... what's your specialty?  What do you think you've done enough in your life that you would consider yourself an expert in that area?  

Have you been in a lot of bar fights?  Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?  Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?   Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?


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## Buka (Jul 7, 2021)

My strength has always been to see things coming, reading people, reading a room, and talking down most of the people involved. Working many years in bars helped that, as did working as a cop.

But my weakness has always been getting involved with other people's problems. I always used to step in when someone was getting hassled or set up. I don't do it much anymore as I don't see much of it over here, at least when I'm not working.

One of my best friends would answer your OP thusly - "I grew up with five brothers, four of whom were crazy."  He saw everything coming. Several times over the years he'd whisper to me, "We're outta here, ship is to hit the fan." Sure enough, we'd hear the next day about something that went down just after we left.


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## Steve (Jul 7, 2021)

Buka said:


> My strength has always been to see things coming, reading people, reading a room, and talking down most of the people involved. Working many years in bars helped that, as did working as a cop.
> 
> But my weakness has always been getting involved with other people's problems. I always used to step in when someone was getting hassled or set up. I don't do it much anymore as I don't see much of it over here, at least when I'm not working.



Reading people and talking people down are definitely useful skills to have.  I've mentioned before that I worked for many years with people who were disabled or aged and very poor, often homeless.  Everyone was dealing with a lot of heavy stuff, and much of the time, I was dealing with them when they were very angry or upset about something (sometimes justified and sometimes not).  The trick was that I had to calm them down enough to figure out how to help them, so simply kicking them out or arresting them wasn't a real option, though it sometimes came to that.  




Buka said:


> One of my best friends would answer your OP thusly - "I grew up with five brothers, four of whom were crazy."  He saw everything coming. Several times over the years he'd whisper to me, "We're outta here, ship is to hit the fan." Sure enough, we'd hear the next day about something that went down just after we left.


 
I had three older brothers, but I'd say this is one of my weaknesses, because I when I'm concentrating on things, I tune out pretty much everything else.  I can miss a lot of drama that's going on around when I'm reading a book.


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## John dye (Jul 10, 2021)

Buka said:


> My strength has always been to see things coming, reading people, reading a room, and talking down most of the people involved. Working many years in bars helped that, as did working as a cop.
> 
> But my weakness has always been getting involved with other people's problems. I always used to step in when someone was getting hassled or set up. I don't do it much anymore as I don't see much of it over here, at least when I'm not working.
> 
> One of my best friends would answer your OP thusly - "I grew up with five brothers, four of whom were crazy."  He saw everything coming. Several times over the years he'd whisper to me, "We're outta here, ship is to hit the fan." Sure enough, we'd hear the next day about something that went down just after we left.


Great. Skill i can talk most guys down. Sometimes my. Job makes it hard to be on point not enough guys


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## Steve (Jul 12, 2021)

John dye said:


> Great. Skill i can talk most guys down. Sometimes my. Job makes it hard to be on point not enough guys


I don't understand what this means.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, I considered bring back a thread from 2006 on Self Defense.  A lot of good, general definitions in that thread.  But figured it would be better to just start a new one.



 Figures - I like Math. 



Steve said:


> We talk a lot about self defense in broad terms.  A lot of posts along the lines of dealing with a threat to your physical or mental safety.  But I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding.  So, if you think about a bouncer as being a specialist in a particular area of self defense.  Or a cop, or an MMA fighter, or anyone else... what's your specialty?



I have done Bouncing and Event Security as well as personal and group security. 



Steve said:


> What do you think you've done enough in your life that you would consider yourself an expert in that area?



I would not consider myself an expert nor a professional in any of these at this time for self defense.



Steve said:


> Have you been in a lot of bar fights?



Only while working security or bouncing. Too many to count and not recent. 



Steve said:


> Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?



Lots of almost. I used verbal JJ and verbal and physical posturing .
Also too many to count. 




Steve said:


> Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?



Lived? Where I rested my head was pretty safe. Not perfect. Yet pretty safe. 
I worked in Flint and the suburbs that had the criminal elements and gangs come to my location(s). 
Mid to Late 80's a slow summer weekday night was 10+ near or almost events a night and 3 to 4 actual physical combat or contact. 
I would say one serious - either they or myself had to go directly to the hospital. And I didn't go that often. 
Not because I was that good, think Lucky and maybe not that smart. 
Weekend nights was a factor of 2 or 3 . 

Fall was about the same as a Summer week. 

Late Fall and Winter was reduced, yet still present. 



Steve said:


> Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?



 I did Not get the sense from Public transit. I got it working crowds and arcades and having to be aware of things around me. 
Note: Still got hit, and stabbed in the leg and much more. So once again not smart, and mostly lucky.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> Have you been in a lot of bar fights?  Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?  Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?   Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?



I worked security for a number of years, and one of those times was in a hospital with a mental health and detox ward. I got pretty good at reading people, talking them down and changing their mind. But even with that the hospital with the mental health and detox, mostly the detox, gave me multiple confrontations, well over 30 in 90 days. I got good at joint lock and restraint. Never had to throw a punch, blocked a few, ducked a few, even ducked one of those stainless steel buckets, you see in ERs, that was thrown at my head....but restraint, and taking that restraint to the floor, if possible, seemed to work rather well. Did trip a charging bull, whacked out on some drug, pro wrestler once too.... he was cooperative after that


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## John dye (Jul 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't understand what this means.


No matter how good you are if your back up or witness is not there or bad backup usually have more issues and there is always that guy
Just wants to test you


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## Guardian (Aug 5, 2021)

I was an Air Force Cop for a portion of my career, then when I retired I went to work for Animal Services in my city.  Now you talk about folks getting uptight to the point of anal it's when you deal with their animals lol.  I would say my strength is talking people down from hyper to a mild irritated situation where I can talk to them, a lot of it is just listening till they burn off the excess anger all the while keeping my distance if everything goes south, I watch their hand movement, their eyes, what's around us weapon wise and I lived lol.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 5, 2021)

I though we are talking about "what MA skill do you have when dealing with attack?"


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## O'Malley (Aug 5, 2021)

My SD specialty is talking about it on the internet.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> My SD specialty is talking about it on the internet.


You could start your own school.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 5, 2021)

The best SD specialty is:

- Look down on the ground as if you are afraid to make any eyes contact.
- Shake your body like a fish.
- Pee you pants if you can.
- You suddenly jump in and eat your opponent alive.

The best SD is to make your opponent to defend himself.

A: Sweetheart, Please don't go jogging in the Central Park. People had been robbed in that park all the time.
B: Don't worry sweetie, I'll be careful. I'm a bit short on cash today.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 5, 2021)

I have super powers.  Mind Control..


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## O'Malley (Aug 6, 2021)

Steve said:


> You could start your own school.


Too much competition.


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## Holmejr (Aug 8, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, I considered bring back a thread from 2006 on Self Defense.  A lot of good, general definitions in that thread.  But figured it would be better to just start a new one.
> 
> We talk a lot about self defense in broad terms.  A lot of posts along the lines of dealing with a threat to your physical or mental safety.  But I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding.  So, if you think about a bouncer as being a specialist in a particular area of self defense.  Or a cop, or an MMA fighter, or anyone else... what's your specialty?  What do you think you've done enough in your life that you would consider yourself an expert in that area?
> 
> Have you been in a lot of bar fights?  Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?  Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?   Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?


Christian principles and a quick wit. I've only been in one two physical confrontations, each one ended in locks. Both by reaction time, fluidity and element of surprise. While submitted, I asked the people if we were cool and if they promised to stop, they said yes (uncle!) and we went about our business or I bought them a beer, can't remember exactly...


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## Hanshi (Aug 9, 2021)

Hmmm, I always try to stay away (generally successful at it) from places that brew trouble!


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## Argus (Aug 10, 2021)

No specialty, but I am really good at being agreeable and non-threatening, and that has allowed me to stay out of trouble and diffuse and avoid a few situations.

I spend a lot of time thinking about appropriate use of force, legal considerations, and avoidance and diffusing situations. I think a lot about decision making, and how to make the right decisions in a given moment that I will need to live with the consequences of. I take all that very seriously.

As physical skills go, while I am not particularly good in anything, I aim to be very well rounded (learning to be aware of and deal with weapons, multiple attackers, and the very big differences between sparring and real world violence) and how to be effective as a very small, light weight person (I've weighed very consistently around 125lbs throughout my entire adult life, and am neither tall nor particularly short). If I ever do need to protect myself, it is very likely to be from someone much bigger than I am.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 10, 2021)

I think I'm the perfect size.  I'm fairly big guy, so I'm not likely to be selected as a target.  But I'm also not big enough to be seen as a threat to be eliminated in a SHTF scenario.

Even outside of that, my self-defense specialty is remaining "grey."  I carry a PANS backpack, which probably wouldn't be considered "grey" in most areas, but it works just fine in my neck of the woods with a heavy military and veteran population.


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## nigebj (Aug 10, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The best SD specialty is:
> 
> - Look down on the ground as if you are afraid to make any eyes contact.


Well I get that you are joking, but at this point you don't get the chance to try the other steps


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## nigebj (Aug 10, 2021)

I like all the guys here whose special power is either not engaging, being invisible or if really necessary the ability to talk people down. 

Those are the people you want to be with when stuff goes wrong ... or the guy you don't know well who just finished a BL binge and wails into the attacker giving you time to get away.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 10, 2021)

nigebj said:


> Well I get that you are joking, but at this point you don't get the chance to try the other steps


This does kind of lead to a real suggestion, though.  You *do* want to look like you're aware of your aware of your surroundings, and the best way to do that is to actually *be* aware of your surroundings. These days, what that mostly means is to not walk around staring at your cellphone. Of course, you'll want to save the battery anyway, as the cellphone itself is an important tool.


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## nigebj (Aug 10, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> This does kind of lead to a real suggestion, though.  You *do* want to look like you're aware of your aware of your surroundings, and the best way to do that is to actually *be* aware of your surroundings. These days, what that mostly means is to not walk around staring at your cellphone. Of course, you'll want to save the battery anyway, as the cellphone itself is an important tool.


Indeed. I've been to many cities in the world and fortunate enough to never be mugged. Of course for a chunk of that time a phone was not an option as they were not portable back then. But, not looking lost or like you're a tourist is a great SD tactic. Read the map (Google directions), remember them and follow them without your phone or behavior advertising that you are not local.

Also, remove those earbuds. Even if you have the music off so you are "still aware of your situation" - you are still inviting trouble that an obviously aware person does not.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 10, 2021)

nigebj said:


> I like all the guys here whose special power is either not engaging, being invisible or if really necessary the ability to talk people down.


Oh, of course.  The bruises, scratches, and cuts you get from fighting aren't worth whatever one might feel there is to be gained from fighting.  That is, unless those bruises, scratches, and cuts are gonna happen anyway unless you prevent or minimize them through fighting.

If I'm on a long journey home and I'm on foot, the journey only becomes more difficult if I've fought along the way.


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## Instructor (Aug 13, 2021)

Well I learned martial arts initially because someone attacked me after school one day. I trained for a few years and earned a 1st Dan in TKD with some HKD for self defense.  

Joined the USAF as a Security Specialist. Did a lot of guard duty after the police academy but didn't use martial arts much for that role.

I did private security on the side for a local dirt race track.  It's basically a bouncing job because a lot of fans drink alcohol at those events.

Eventually I decided to focus on HKD and I'm up to 4th Dan.

Honestly I would say the best thing I have is just being mindful of my situation, knowing how to deescalate and when to just walk away.

If you have to actually use your martial arts in the real world you've already failed a few levels of prevention.


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## john_newman (Aug 13, 2021)

Yup!
I've been in Bar fight on several occasions. In my view the best self defense is to observer carefully your opponent's each and every step.


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## Rabbitthekitten (Aug 13, 2021)

Running away. Failing that a turning kick to the side of the head.


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## drop bear (Aug 13, 2021)

I have bounced for years in some places so rough the police black listed us. And essentially wouldn't turn up. 

I have fought about a thousand guys under a lot of different and varied conditions. I have been punched and choked and eye gouged and bitten and even recently chased around by a meth head with a bow and arrow. I saw a guy once blinded by having champagne thrown in his eyes. A lot of weird and random stuff. 

My SD expertise is I have experimented with a or heard first hand reports of a lot of the street elements of street fighting. (That 10%) All those variables like fighting in a suit or with weapons, fighting on uncertain surfaces. Even ambush and counter ambush. 

I did break in response and had to creep through buildings looking for robbers. 

I did loss prevention and had to chase villians through shopping centres. 

I have done first aid response, prevented suicidal people from jumping off car parks, treating sucking chest wounds from stabbing victims. 

I have worked with dogs. I have used bats on people. I have fought guys in to hand cuffs. 

I have also played with a lot of self defence systems I did hock hokcheims rsbd. I have done ppct and it's variants. A bunch of Australian freestyle suff like Zen do kai. And then I went out and actually tried to do that stuff on people.


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## Argus (Aug 16, 2021)

I think, when it comes to self defense, it's a really good idea *not* to be specialized in anything, unless that speciality is, itself, a diverse and wholistic approach to self defense.

In competition, people specialize to the a very specific ruleset and environment of the ring.

In many TMA's, people specialize equally, with the context of fighting other practitioners of the same, or similar art(s).

But in the real world, you have to unspecialize. You have to know something about dealing with committed, untrained opponents, as well as opponents who may have some experience. You have to know how to deal with not just grappling and striking, but potential weapons. You have to know how to deal with multiple attackers. You have to be prepared to deal with people much larger than yourself. You have to know how not to injure yourself by breaking your hand, slamming your knees into the concrete, etc. etc. And you have to not just be concerned with fighting, or winning the fight, but with extracting yourself from the situation, with legal concerns and reasonable use of force, and with avoidance and de-escalation.

So in short: don't specialize. You need to have a keen understanding, and ability to operate under immense stress against a very wide range of threats, and to stay tactically aware such that you are creating every opportunity to avoid, end, or escape from the situation and protect yourself both physically and legally as much as you can.

Of course, if you have a specific role, such as Security / Police / Bouncing, etc., there is understandably more argument to be made for specializing, as you have in those cases a more clearly defined role and expectations beyond just protecting yourself or people around you.


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## john_newman (Aug 16, 2021)

Just Observing ever move of my opponent. That's why I didn't need any self defence.
I always overcome every step of my opponent.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 16, 2021)

john_newman said:


> Just Observing ever move of my opponent. That's why I didn't need any self defence.
> I always overcome every step of my opponent.



I've seen plenty of edgy posts on MT, but this one tops them all! 🤣


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## Steve (Aug 16, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I have bounced for years in some places so rough the police black listed us. And essentially wouldn't turn up.
> 
> I have fought about a thousand guys under a lot of different and varied conditions. I have been punched and choked and eye gouged and bitten and even recently chased around by a meth head with a bow and arrow. I saw a guy once blinded by having champagne thrown in his eyes. A lot of weird and random stuff.
> 
> ...


When are you going to market your own self defense training program?


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## drop bear (Aug 16, 2021)

Steve said:


> When are you going to market your own self defense training program?




Nah.

Do MMA.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, I considered bring back a thread from 2006 on Self Defense.  A lot of good, general definitions in that thread.  But figured it would be better to just start a new one.
> 
> We talk a lot about self defense in broad terms.  A lot of posts along the lines of dealing with a threat to your physical or mental safety.  But I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding.  So, if you think about a bouncer as being a specialist in a particular area of self defense.  Or a cop, or an MMA fighter, or anyone else... what's your specialty?  What do you think you've done enough in your life that you would consider yourself an expert in that area?
> 
> Have you been in a lot of bar fights?  Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?  Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?   Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?



Honestly, this doesn't make any sense... self defence IS a speciality... beyond that, there's understanding of different contexts... but to have a "self defence speciality" is to not understand self defence as a concept...


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, this doesn't make any sense... self defence IS a speciality... beyond that, there's understanding of different contexts... but to have a "self defence speciality" is to not understand self defence as a concept...


Well, I'm not all that surprised it doesn't make any sense to you.  The idea was to consider what things we actually do, as opposed to things we have a theoretical or philosophical knowledge of.  You're a salesman.  What skills do you have as a function of your actual experience in sales that are useful in a self defense context?

It's not a difficult exercise, Chris.  Just having a discussion.  You can choose to participate in a constructive manner, or you can troll the thread and, I'm pretty sure, get it locked in short order.  Up to you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Nah.
> 
> Do MMA.


If you swap those words, you get a brand new, entirely different art with all the benefits of MMA. Plus it's a "do", which is just better, right?

So, when do the MMA-do t-shirts come out?


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 26, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, this doesn't make any sense... self defence IS a speciality... beyond that, there's understanding of different contexts... but to have a "self defence speciality" is to not understand self defence as a concept...




If one is conscious of the conscious and the unconscious, then is the unconscious also conscious of the conscious and of itself the unconscious?

To be aware and apply parameters and adjust and not to make absolutes which leads one to false assumptions.

I see your theoretical point.
I also see the point of discussing what are people's specialties and or favorites.
This could lead to them reviewing their own bias and then becoming conscious of their unconscious.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> If one is conscious of the conscious and the unconscious, then is the unconscious also conscious of the conscious and of itself the unconscious?
> 
> To be aware and apply parameters and adjust and not to make absolutes which leads one to false assumptions.
> 
> ...


Well said.....I think. Or maybe complete bunk. Um...I'll get back to you........ 😁


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> If one is conscious of the conscious and the unconscious, then is the unconscious also conscious of the conscious and of itself the unconscious?
> 
> To be aware and apply parameters and adjust and not to make absolutes which leads one to false assumptions.
> 
> ...


“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.”
― Richard Feynman


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, this doesn't make any sense... self defence IS a speciality... beyond that, there's understanding of different contexts... but to have a "self defence speciality" is to not understand self defence as a concept...



I would have said the opposite. Self Defense on its own is a weasel word. It means nothing and everything. 

It is the specifics where you do begin to understand the concept.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> what are people's specialties and or favorites.


This is much more interested discussion topic. 

- What's people's "door guarding skill"? 
- How did people develop it? 
- What's their successful ratio?


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I have bounced for years in some places so rough the police black listed us. And essentially wouldn't turn up.
> 
> I have fought about a thousand guys under a lot of different and varied conditions. I have been punched and choked and eye gouged and bitten and even recently chased around by a meth head with a bow and arrow. I saw a guy once blinded by having champagne thrown in his eyes. A lot of weird and random stuff.
> 
> ...


Not to mention surviving all the beasties crawling around your continent.

Tell you one thing, Drop, if you ever do a book, tapes, whatever, I'll be the first to get them.

And don't discount that notion altogether. It could help a lot of people.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Self Defense on its own is a weasel word. It means nothing and everything.


I prefer to call it "combat skill".


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I prefer to call it "combat skill".



Still a term that doesn't mean anything without specifics.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> Not to mention surviving all the beasties crawling around your continent.
> 
> Tell you one thing, Drop, if you ever do a book, tapes, whatever, I'll be the first to get them.
> 
> And don't discount that notion altogether. It could help a lot of people.



Drops series on how to knock a guy out with a rape choke.

I could see that being a best seller.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Still a term that doesn't mean anything without specifics.


I agree with your point, but that term is at least better than self defense. It lets people know you're planning to teach actual "combat skills", whatever those may be, rather than saying that what you teach will offer some mystical benefit outside combat.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> Not to mention surviving all the beasties crawling around your continent.
> 
> Tell you one thing, Drop, if you ever do a book, tapes, whatever, I'll be the first to get them.
> 
> And don't discount that notion altogether. It could help a lot of people.


Same. And the good thing is, Drop will get to define and use all the terms however he wants!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Still a term that doesn't mean anything without specifics.


The term "combat" include:

- battlefield fight.
- street fight.
- personal challenge.
- tournament.
- sparring/wrestling.
- ...

To me, "combat specialty" mean "door guarding skill".

This old man's (my teacher's young brother) door guarding skill is embracing. If he can move behind you, he can pick you up, and throw you in front of him, or behind of him.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Drops series on how to knock a guy out with a rape choke.
> 
> I could see that being a best seller.


Seriously, Bear, it's something you should keep in the back of your mind. It would sell. It would help people. And you just might make a fair amount of casheola.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> Seriously, Bear, it's something you should keep in the back of your mind. It would sell. It would help people. And you just might make a fair amount of casheola.



If I did it. I would like to find all the street fighters and nasty pasties that I learned the moves off and make them show it. 

That craw (not the craw. The Craw) choke I just mentioned for example was a bouncer mates signature move. 

That would be kind of fun


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> Not to mention surviving all the beasties crawling around your continent.
> 
> Tell you one thing, Drop, if you ever do a book, tapes, whatever, I'll be the first to get them.
> 
> And don't discount that notion altogether. It could help a lot of people.


Or if not help people, at least amuse them!  I think a screenplay staring Ryan Gosling...


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Still a term that doesn't mean anything without specifics.


I think that's true of a lot of terms that still get used effectively in communication. If we talk about fighting skills, that is a HUGE area and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. But we at least understand kinda what it means, and can get to the specifics in discussion. So the term is vague and maleable, but gets us into the right concepts.

I think "self defense" does the same thing, though it's definitely much more vague. If someone wants to talk about "self defense skills" we already know they're probably not talking about the context of what goes on in a boxing ring (though we know those skills can be a subset of what comes up). It's about as vague as saying "combat sport", which can cover a huge range, and won't mean the same thing to everyone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think "self defense" does the same thing, though it's definitely much more vague.


Again, does the term self-defense include to protect your love one?


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Or if not help people, at least amuse them!  I think a screenplay staring Ryan Gosling...


We'd have to get the right casting to play Drop Bear, though.


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think that's true of a lot of terms that still get used effectively in communication. If we talk about fighting skills, that is a HUGE area and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. But we at least understand kinda what it means, and can get to the specifics in discussion. So the term is vague and maleable, but gets us into the right concepts.
> 
> I think "self defense" does the same thing, though it's definitely much more vague. If someone wants to talk about "self defense skills" we already know they're probably not talking about the context of what goes on in a boxing ring (though we know those skills can be a subset of what comes up). It's about as vague as saying "combat sport", which can cover a huge range, and won't mean the same thing to everyone.


Kind of.  If I say someone is a fighter, we have an idea of what that means, even if I'm speaking figuratively and not literally.  It's also easily defined.  

But you can't say someone is a self defenser.  That makes no sense.  It's makes no sense as a verb, at all.  It can (and does) mean pretty much whatever someone wants for it to mean.  At best, it's too vague to be useful.  At worst, it's something sales people use to shill a product and add mystique to their brand.  

So, just to clarify what I had in mind with this thread, if we can all agree that "self defense" is in some way related to personal safety, and let it go at that, then we all have some experience.  For example, a social worker/case manager who works with SSI recipients for a public hospital is going to have a lot of self defense experience, whether he or she knows martial arts or not.  I'd argue that they could have more practical experience than some people who purport to be self defense experts.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think that's true of a lot of terms that still get used effectively in communication. If we talk about fighting skills, that is a HUGE area and doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. But we at least understand kinda what it means, and can get to the specifics in discussion. So the term is vague and maleable, but gets us into the right concepts.
> 
> I think "self defense" does the same thing, though it's definitely much more vague. If someone wants to talk about "self defense skills" we already know they're probably not talking about the context of what goes on in a boxing ring (though we know those skills can be a subset of what comes up). It's about as vague as saying "combat sport", which can cover a huge range, and won't mean the same thing to everyone.



Hence self defence, combat sport, boxing skills, Speciality is a good thing to discuss.

The biggest issue with self defence is you don't have to be trained to do it. If we add avoiding conflict. Then you don't even have to know if you are doing it or not.

Am I doing self defence now?

I mean nobody is attacking me.


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> We'd have to get the right casting to play Drop Bear, though.


Okay.  How about Sean Gunn?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> If I say someone is a fighter, ...
> 
> But you can't say someone is a self defenser.


Most people may believe that:

You are a 

- fighter -> you are a bad guy.
- self-defenser -> you are a good guy.


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Hence self defence, combat sport, boxing skills, Speciality is a good thing to discuss.


Exactly.  And you can even dig in further than that.   The actual experiences of a Sheriff who works in a small town on a police force of one person is going to have different experience than a street level narcotics officer in Chicago.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay.  How about Sean Gunn?



That is actually very close.


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> We'd have to get the right casting to play Drop Bear, though.


I want Scott Ryan.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2021)

Good choice for sure. But I at least want Max Irons to audition for the roll. A male audience is already assured. But with Irons, the woman would eat him up.

And he does good action on the show Condor.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, does the term self-defense include to protect your love one?


Self-Defense: the defense of one's person or interests, especially through the use of physical force, which is permitted in certain cases as an answer to a charge of violent crime.

I think it's pretty obvious that you have a strong interest in the safety of those you care about. It's not even difficult to see how you have an interest in the safety of the general public.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> Kind of.  If I say someone is a fighter, we have an idea of what that means, even if I'm speaking figuratively and not literally.  It's also easily defined.
> 
> But you can't say someone is a self defenser.  That makes no sense.  It's makes no sense as a verb, at all.  It can (and does) mean pretty much whatever someone wants for it to mean.  At best, it's too vague to be useful.  At worst, it's something sales people use to shill a product and add mystique to their brand.


Which is why I didn't suggest the term "self defenser" was useful.



> So, just to clarify what I had in mind with this thread, if we can all agree that "self defense" is in some way related to personal safety, and let it go at that, then we all have some experience.  For example, a social worker/case manager who works with SSI recipients for a public hospital is going to have a lot of self defense experience, whether he or she knows martial arts or not.  I'd argue that they could have more practical experience than some people who purport to be self defense experts.


I can get on board with that, if we go beyond my typical usage of "self defense" (which is narrower than most folks).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Hence self defence, combat sport, boxing skills, Speciality is a good thing to discuss.
> 
> The biggest issue with self defence is you don't have to be trained to do it. If we add avoiding conflict. Then you don't even have to know if you are doing it or not.
> 
> ...


As with a lot of things, not being trained to defend yourself, you can still be successful. The point of training to defend yourself should be to improve the chances of success by some margin.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I want Scott Ryan.


TMI


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Which is why I didn't suggest the term "self defenser" was useful.


it’s nonsense.  That’s the point. 



gpseymour said:


> I can get on board with that, if we go beyond my typical usage of "self defense" (which is narrower than most folks).


I truly don’t know whether you mean you are using the term in a narrower sense than me or vice versa.  And who are these “most folks”?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> I truly don’t know whether you mean you are using the term in a narrower sense than me or vice versa.  And who are these “most folks”?


Most folks on here (and others I've talked to) include non-physical stuff in their definition of self-defense. To me, the term includes only physical defense. So you're using the term in a broader sense than I usually do, but I don't think that my usage is the more common, except perhaps in legal circles.


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## Steve (Aug 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks on here (and others I've talked to) include non-physical stuff in their definition of self-defense. To me, the term includes only physical defense. So you're using the term in a broader sense than I usually do, but I don't think that my usage is the more common, except perhaps in legal circles.


So you have a more specific definition than most people?  Okay.  That's fine.  For this thread, I'm using what I believed to be the general understanding of the term, which would include things like situational awareness, deescalation, etc.  I tried to make that pretty clear in the OP with the examples I provided.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Most folks on here (and others I've talked to) include non-physical stuff in their definition of self-defense. To me, the term includes only physical defense. So you're using the term in a broader sense than I usually do, but I don't think that my usage is the more common, except perhaps in legal circles.


I think in general, it's best to use the definitions of the OP when there's debate about definition, to avoid any confusion. Unless their definition is completely whacko.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> So you have a more specific definition than most people?  Okay.  That's fine.  For this thread, I'm using what I believed to be the general understanding of the term, which would include things like situational awareness, deescalation, etc.  I tried to make that pretty clear in the OP with the examples I provided.


Yep. That's what I was saying. Easy enough when we all understand the usage.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is much more interested discussion topic.
> 
> - What's people's "door guarding skill"?
> - How did people develop it?
> - What's their successful ratio?



From the Macro point of view - I have a 100% Success rate.  - I am still alive. 

If one counts all the:
Being shot at
stabbed
cut
golf clubbed attacked
taz'ed 
hit by cars
gone through windows
...
and lots more multiple on one empty hand combative(s) 
I have lost a lot.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Oct 28, 2021)

My self-defense specialty is not associating with dangerous people. I have a very selective filter through which any potential friends or partners must pass through in order for me to trust them.


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## tim po (Dec 10, 2021)

surprise.
Concealment of intention, a neutral, unimposing stance/attitude, luring the attacker to attack carelessly because they think you are not ready to respond. creating this opportunity is a skill unto itself. In self-defense, there is only one intention: escape unharmed. this is not a fight, there is no pride or honor at stake, social implications and legal repercussions be damned. show nothing until the moment the attack begins, then unleash hell.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 10, 2021)

Running away.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, I considered bring back a thread from 2006 on Self Defense.  A lot of good, general definitions in that thread.  But figured it would be better to just start a new one.
> 
> We talk a lot about self defense in broad terms.  A lot of posts along the lines of dealing with a threat to your physical or mental safety.  But I think that leads to a lot of misunderstanding.  So, if you think about a bouncer as being a specialist in a particular area of self defense.  Or a cop, or an MMA fighter, or anyone else... what's your specialty?  What do you think you've done enough in your life that you would consider yourself an expert in that area?
> 
> Have you been in a lot of bar fights?  Or better yet, _almost _been in a lot of bar fights?  Have you lived in an area where violent crime is more common?   Did you take public transit for long enough to get a Spidey sense when something weird was happening?


I’m an expert tickler. I really did avoid a bar fight that way once. I consider it a feather in my cap.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m an expert tickler. I really did avoid a bar fight that way once. I consider it a feather in my cap.


If you laugh out loud, I win. Hard to be a tough guy when you are squirming and giggling.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Dec 10, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Running away.


The best martial art(except for tickling). I’m not very fast at it, but it works like nothing else for staying pretty.


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## Hanzou (Dec 14, 2021)

I like to give hugs.....


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