# Hapkido vs. Yukwonsul vs. Yawara vs. Daito Ryu



## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

Does anyone think there is a difference between Hapkido, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu? If so, what are the differences?


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

puunui said:


> Does anyone think there is a difference between Hapkido, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu? If so, what are the differences?



Would the name Yusul also be related to any of these?


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## Haakon (Apr 15, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Would the name Yusul also be related to any of these?



I would think so. I know virtually nothing about it, but Hapki Yusul is supposed to be what Yong Sul Choi originally taught, so I'd expect it to be very similar to Daito Ryu and share many techniques with Hapkido.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapki_yusul


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## mastercole (Apr 15, 2012)

Haakon said:


> I would think so. I know virtually nothing about it, but Hapki Yusul is supposed to be what Yong Sul Choi originally taught, so I'd expect it to be very similar to Daito Ryu and share many techniques with Hapkido.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapki_yusul



I think Daito ryu aikijujutsu was from Samurai. Does the Hapkido you practice have sword techniques?  I noticed Kevin Sogar's teacher GM Lim teaches sword techniques.


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## elder999 (Apr 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Does anyone think there is a difference between Hapkido, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu? If so, what are the differences?



Certainly. It depends, firstly, on which Hapkido you're talking about. Here's a video that includes footage of Ji Han Jae performing Hapkido circa 1961-notice the lack of kicks until the end, and none performed by him:






This is probably a great deal like what he learned from Choi-and what Choi learned *was* probably Daito Ryu. Most notable is that no one is taking nearly as many steps-as in moving their feet-as an aikidoist would-they're pretty much taking one step, or staying in place, just as a Daito ryu practitioner might:






even a Yoshinkan aikidoist will not their feet as much:






whereas an Aikikai aikidoist will typically move about.....quite beautifully, at times, but still:






When Choi used the term "_yawara_" he was really using an old, generic term. Sort of like how Japanese today might be completely puzzled if you tell them that you practice _jujutsu_, but completely understand if you say you practice _taihojutsu._ By saying "yawara." though, I think Choi was harkening to what he believed were Daito ryu's koryu roots.

In any case, it's a term that can be applied to a variety of jujutsu styles and methods, some of which are quite different. This is "yawara":






this is also "yawara":






Yukwonsul really could be Hapkido, and vice versa, for all I know. Hapkido-with its dynamic kicks-clearly *is not *Daito Ryu, though. You could call it "Korean jujutsu," I guess, but it also pretty clearly stands on its own as hapkido, which is an altogether appropriate name.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah, agreed with Elder there. It depends on what you mean by each of the terms, as only Daito Ryu is distinctly a unique system (and in that regard, yes, there's quite a difference... I'm not touching the question of whether Daito Ryu "came from the samurai", though... as well as whether simply having "sword techniques" would be any indicator one way or another), with "yawara" especially being rather vague. Yawara is written with this character: &#26580; It is likely to look familiar, as it's also pronounced "Ju", and is the beginning of "Jujutsu" and "Judo".


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## zDom (Apr 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Does anyone think there is a difference between Hapkido, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu? If so, what are the differences?



In my opinion, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu are all either precursors to and/or sources of ingredients that were combined into the "stew" of hapkido.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, agreed with Elder there. It depends on what you mean by each of the terms, as only Daito Ryu is distinctly a unique system (and in that regard, yes, there's quite a difference... I'm not touching the question of whether Daito Ryu "came from the samurai", though... as well as whether simply having "sword techniques" would be any indicator one way or another), with "yawara" especially being rather vague. Yawara is written with this character: &#26580; It is likely to look familiar, as it's also pronounced "Ju", and is the beginning of "Jujutsu" and "Judo".



What do those terms mean to you within the context of hapkido? GM CHOI Yong Sul used all those names at various times during his teaching career.


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## elder999 (Apr 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> What do those terms mean to you within the context of hapkido? GM CHOI Yong Sul used all those names at various times during his teaching career.




Remembering that he was said to be fluent in Japanese........


What he learned was "Daito ryu", so he called it that.

Daito ryu is a form of jujutsu, or _yawara_. So he called it *that*.

_Yusul? Hapki yusul_? I don't know why he called it that, though it probably had something to do with how it developed along the way. I also don't know what "yusul" means, so my insight into that is limited-I'm betting that the rest of it probably is as simple as I've said, though:

"Hapkido" is-very basically-saying the same thing as "Aikido," so he called it that, and probably after some contact with Ueshiba when *he* started calling what *he* did *that*.


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## zDom (Apr 16, 2012)

elder999 said:


> _Yusul? Hapki yusul_? I don't know why he called it that, though it probably had something to do with how it developed along the way. I also don't know what "yusul" means ...



Someone with more knowledge of Korean than me (cough.. which is about everybody) please feel free to correct or clarify,

but isn't that a Koreanization of "jujutsu"?

I'm thinking that maybe "yu" is the Korean version of "ju" (as in Koreans call Judo "Yudo")

and that "sul" seems to be very much like "jutsu."


As for hapki yusul, is that not pretty much an attempt to render into Korean "Aiki Ju Jutsu"?


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

zDom said:


> Someone with more knowledge of Korean than me (cough.. which is about everybody) please feel free to correct or clarify,
> 
> but isn't that a Koreanization of "jujutsu"?
> 
> ...



Correct. Also "Daito Ryu" is pronounced "Daedong Ryu" in korean.


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## puunui (Apr 16, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Remembering that he was said to be fluent in Japanese........



GM Choi's japanese was much better than his korean language abilities. This is to be expected, given the fact that he spent more than 30 years living in japan.


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## Haakon (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think Daito ryu aikijujutsu was from Samurai. Does the Hapkido you practice have sword techniques?  I noticed Kevin Sogar's teacher GM Lim teaches sword techniques.



We do some sword practice at our Hapkido school, but there isn't a strong focus on it. The patterns we do are mainly Japanese in origin, largely from Aikido which my instructor also has rank in.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think Daito ryu aikijujutsu was from Samurai. Does the Hapkido you practice have sword techniques?  I noticed Kevin Sogar's teacher GM Lim teaches sword techniques.


Ours had sword techniques as well.  All of my hapkido sabeom came out of the IHF; my current sabeom, Debra Disney, is Moo Moo Kwan under GM Hee Kwan Lee, and is indirectly associated with the IHF.  

By the time I stared hapkido, I already had spent a lot of time in kendo, kumdo, and geomdo, with a smattering of purloined iai and kenjutsu at various schools.  Most of what I have seen within hapkido has been pretty functional; no cartwheels or handstands.  And what I have seen of sword work in hapkido has not been hankumdo.  While I have seen videos of it, I have never trained in it and consider it a separate art.


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

zDom said:


> In my opinion, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu are all either precursors to and/or sources of ingredients that were combined into the "stew" of hapkido.



Let me ask you this: How integral do you think the kicks are to Hapkido? Can you have hapkido without "doing" all of the spinning, jumping flying kicks, which by the way are implied within hapkido's eagle symbol? 

Seems to me that the people crying the loudest about GM Ji and his additions are really talking about GM Choi and what his art actually was, which did not include kicks. If that is the case, then perhaps those complainers should move back to one of the names that GM Choi used early on, either yawara, yukwonsul or whatever and leave hapkido to those that popularized the name worldwide. I think that is a better approach than trying to claim the name hapkido and then grumbling about the 95% of the hapkido practitioners whose lineage flows through the complained about practitioner.


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## puunui (Apr 17, 2012)

elder999 said:


> What he learned was "Daito ryu", so he called it that.
> 
> Daito ryu is a form of jujutsu, or _yawara_. So he called it *that*.
> 
> ...



When asked about the name of his art, GM Choi said Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, which is pronounced Daedong Ryu Hapkiyoosool in korean. GM SUH Bok Sup suggested that GM Choi add the word Kwon in there because of the striking element and the name then changed to Daedong Ryu Hapkiyukwonsul. There are pictures with sign boards with this name on it. The name yukwonsul was used by GM Choi for the longest time. 

When GM Ji moved to Seoul, he saw schools who had short art names, tangsoodo, yudo, etc. and felt that the name hapkiyukwonsul was too long. So he cut off the yukwonsul portion and called his art hapkido. Whether he was the first to do this or not, people will debate until their face turn blue. But what is not in debate is that GM Ji was the first to use the name is Seoul, where the majority of the korean people live, and the name became very popular, to the point where other students of GM Choi began using the name too. 

Then in 1961 or 1962, Korea opened up trade with Japan, and with that came the importation of many books, including books about aikido. GM Ji saw aikido books, and felt that korean hapkido was different so he changed the name to kido instead and helped organize the daehan kido hwe. But GM Ji's students liked the name hapkido and continued to use it, which lead to the creation of the Korea Hapkido Association. From that point, everyone wanted to be associated with the name Hapkido because of the popularity of it is Seoul and the name has stuck ever since. 

Even today, when people think of hapkido, what comes to mind is GM Ji's school as well as his students. In Korea, GM Ji's name is much more famous than GM Choi's name as far as hapkido is concerned.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> What do those terms mean to you within the context of hapkido? GM CHOI Yong Sul used all those names at various times during his teaching career.



Frankly? Nothing. The only one I see as having anything to do with Hapkido in a current context is, well, Hapkido. But my point was that saying "Yawara" implies a large range of methods and systems, so asking about similarities and differences needs clarification. If you're asking if there has been changes in the art currently known as Hapkido signified by changes in the names, that's a different question, but that context was completely lacking. And asking if there is a difference between Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Hapkido, absolutely there is. And I don't get why such a question would need to be asked by anyone who has any real understanding of different martial arts and traditions.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> And asking if there is a difference between Daito Ryu Aikijutsu and Hapkido, absolutely there is.


High kicking and spin kicking aside, what are the differences from a technical perspective?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

Ah, that's not so easy to say... mainly as it's a tactical approach, rather than a technical difference. Again, as I feel that Choi had some connection, just not anywhere near as extensive as has been claimed, to Daito Ryu, technical similarities would be expected. The construct, though, is largely different, the structure of technique is very different, the feel is very different, and things like a sense of distancing and timing are very different, the angling is different, and more.

Really, the best way I can describe it is that Hapkido teaches techniques, Daito Ryu teaches kata.

For example: 





Hapkido





Daito Ryu


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

I've seen the second video before.  Wish the tree stand wasn't in the way.  

I don't know that I would consider the first video representative of how hapkido instruction in a dojang looks, however.  Not that the techniques displayed were 'not hapkido' or wrong in any way, but more that the segment was done specifically for a how to video.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

Yeah, agreed on the first video. But I was looking for something that wasn't half-TKD sparring and flashy kicks, that showed the technical approach to Hapkido locks etc, and it was the best I could find. If you could find one that you feel represents Hapkido dojang training better, pop it up.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2012)

I thought it was good from a technical standpoint; just not the way that a hapkido class or demo is likely to look.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, that's not so easy to say... mainly as it's a tactical approach, rather than a technical difference. Again, as I feel that Choi had some connection, just not anywhere near as extensive as has been claimed, to Daito Ryu, technical similarities would be expected. The construct, though, is largely different, the structure of technique is very different, the feel is very different, and things like a sense of distancing and timing are very different, the angling is different, and more.



Couldn't you say the same thing about daito ryu (as shown in that video) and aikido (take your pick on which version).


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2012)

Yes. Which is the point. I really don't understand how this question could even be asked, really, except by people who don't have a clue.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Yes. Which is the point. I really don't understand how this question could even be asked, really, except by people who don't have a clue.



I think you missed the point of the thread, mainly because you are not a hapkido practitioner. But that's ok. Everyone is entitled to chime in on a thread.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 20, 2012)

Hmm, your OP was:



puunui said:


> Does anyone think there is a difference between Hapkido, Yukwonsul, Yawara and/or Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu? If so, what are the differences?



In that instance, Daito Ryu is a specific entity, distinct and unique even against it's other off-shoots, so unless it's Daito Ryu, there're going to be differences. Yawara is such a generic term that it needs to be clarified, but again, it's a different art to Hapkido (although that Japanese term was used at a time, that hardly makes Hapkido Yawara in Japanese terms).

If they are different arts (and they are), there are differences, and anyone with half a clue can see that. Being a Hapkido practitioner or not really doesn't enter into it, and if you think it does, then by the same token being a practitioner of Daito Ryu (or having a fair understanding of it, at least), being a practitioner of Yawara etc is just as valid. And when it comes to Yawara, I have some time with arts that use that term.

Or, again, did you mean something different to what you typed?


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## puunui (Apr 20, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Or, again, did you mean something different to what you typed?



I don't know. I lost concentration about 1/3 into it, when I realized it there were no facts forthcoming, just more argument. Sorry.


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