# Is "Fighterman" Crazy?



## geezer (Jan 27, 2015)

Is "Fighterman" Fernandez crazy? Probably. But in a _good_ way! Check out the following clip. It's directed at the WC lineage, but IMO the problem he's addressing could apply to any of us. Please share your thoughts:


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## Argus (Jan 27, 2015)

Very good. Kind of surprising to hear from a Leung Ting guy, at that


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## WcForMe (Jan 27, 2015)

I put something similar up and got one response! As I said in my post I agree with ALOT he says but not all! But I did like this video! Straight to the point so to speak!


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## geezer (Jan 27, 2015)

If you get beyond the whole Hong Kong vs European thing which is peculiar to the "WT" branch and expand what he is saying to WC in general he makes a great point. How many times do sifus get so caught up in the complexity of curriculum and specific drills that they forget to emphasize the obvious ....namely simplicity, efficiency and taking the offense?

In WT I got this same input from LT, _and_  from some who trained in Europe, like Emin. Very pragmatic. Now I'm getting frustrated a bit by endless complications of the curriculum. For me WC is _not_ about memorizing the endless cycles of "lat-sau" levels or "chi-sau sections". Those are just a path to learning efficient and effective technique. If the drills are getting you there, good. If not, drop 'em and train in a way that _does_ get you to that point!

Or then again maybe I'm just getting too old and senile to learn all that curriculum! But jeez guys, that's the same thing that encouraged me to leave a kenpo system to the apparent simplity of WC back in '79. And I was only about 23 at the time. Now sometimes WC seems as overly complicated as what I was training before!


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## futsaowingchun (Jan 27, 2015)

I think with the "endless curriculum" is more about money then mastering your kung fu. Why do you think some systems have 100's of hand forms!! you need all that to keep them going for years!!


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## yak sao (Jan 27, 2015)

geezer said:


> If you get beyond the whole Hong Kong vs European thing which is peculiar to the "WT" branch and expand what he is saying to WC in general he makes a great point. How many times do sifus get so caught up in the complexity of curriculum and specific drills that they forget to emphasize the obvious ....namely simplicity, efficiency and taking the offense?
> 
> In WT I got this same input from LT, _and_  from some who trained in Europe, like Emin. Very pragmatic. Now I'm getting frustrated a bit by endless complications of the curriculum. For me WC is _not_ about memorizing the endless cycles of "lat-sau" levels or "chi-sau sections". Those are just a path to learning efficient and effective technique. If the drills are getting you there, good. If not, drop 'em and train in a way that _does_ get you to that point!
> 
> Or then again maybe I'm just getting too old and senile to learn all that curriculum! But jeez guys, that's the same thing that encouraged me to leave a kenpo system to the apparent simplity of WC back in '79. And I was only about 23 at the time. Now sometimes WC seems as overly complicated as what I was training before!



Many do get bogged down in the minutiae of WT, and I believe the details are important, but it's good to step back from time to time and look at the big picture and ask yourself if you are keeping what you are doing simple and uncluttered, or are you overcomplicating it?

The best way I've found to do this is to look at what you're doing in light of _The 4 Fighting Principles_.

And that's exactly what he's saying here..."just hit"....which is really just a restatement of the first principle

FYI, for those outside of LT lineage or its offshoots, the 4 fighting principles are:

_If the way is free, go forward_
_If contact is made, stick_
_If the opponent's force is greater, yield_
_If the opponent withdraws, follow_


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## yak sao (Jan 27, 2015)

geezer said:


> Or then again maybe I'm just getting too old and senile to learn all that curriculum! But jeez guys, that's the same thing that encouraged me to leave a kenpo system to the apparent simplity of WC back in '79. And I was only about 23 at the time. Now sometimes WC seems as overly complicated as what I was training before!



Hey geezer, I've addressed this question on here before. How can we simplify what we are doing and streamline it?
In our group we train 7 chi sau sections based on SNT and CK, 4 sections based on BT, 8 sections based on MYJ and 1 chi gerk section, for a total of 20 sections. I would suppose that's fairly standard for the LT lineages, different versions notwithstanding.

While there is some repetition, there isn't a whole lot of redundancy there.
What do you see as a way of getting to the crux of it?
Being a teacher, I am not allowed the luxury of "forgetting the sections" and moving on, I have to continuously double back and pick up another passenger and bring them across on the boat.
I wonder sometimes if there is a simpler way that would still convey all that we want to convey without schlepping through 20 sections????


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

Interesting.
We teach almost from the beginning wc is about attacking. Intercept and attack. Our rolling is not just rolling. The roll happens because of 'Attack - Counter Attacking' not rolling. We have trapping drills for development. However, in the intermediate to advance stages it is about attacking not trapping not defending. Trapping happens but is not what we are wanting to do, we want to hit!

Our fight principles:
'Receive What Comes', 'Stay With What Goes', 'Where There is Emptiness Strike'.
Intercept, Stick, Strike when nothing is stopping you.


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## KPM (Jan 27, 2015)

These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting.  Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy!  But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff.  Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together.  How often is that really going to happen?


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## Danny T (Jan 27, 2015)

KPM said:


> These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting.  Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy!  But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff.  Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together.  How often is that really going to happen?


Got to take it to the point of someone actually trying to hit you. It is way we also spar vs boxers, muay thai fighters, and whomever else wants to spar.


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2015)

KPM said:


> These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting.  Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy!  But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff.  Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together.  How often is that really going to happen?




Which is precisely why you should always seek to simply hit. If your opponent's arms are not on the center you make contact. If his arms are on center, then chi sau reflexes come into play.
Simple...always keep it as simple as possible.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 28, 2015)

KPM said:


> These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting.  Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy!  But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff.  Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together.  How often is that really going to happen?



I am constantly amazed at the ability of certain Si-Hings of mine to embody the 4 principles when sparring: simply send their hands out and intercept, stick, and follow me no matter what or how I try to hit them. And we never spar WT against WT; one person is generally always a designated "non WT" person and free to throw boxing type strikes or whatever they feel comfortable or capable of doing for the benefit of the other student.
So my experience only confirms to me the skill that the Chi-Sau sections, tedious as they may be, DO give to someone to do exactly what we should do in Wing Chun.


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Which is precisely why you should always seek to simply hit. If your opponent's arms are not on the center you make contact. If his arms are on center, then chi sau reflexes come into play.
> Simple...always keep it as simple as possible.



Yeah, I'm with you on that one from my perspective. I did not anything ground breaking in that vid. What was different?


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## Transk53 (Jan 28, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I am constantly amazed at the ability of certain Si-Hings of mine to embody the 4 principles when sparring: simply send their hands out and intercept, stick, and follow me no matter what or how I try to hit them. And we never spar WT against WT; one person is generally always a designated "non WT" person and free to throw boxing type strikes or whatever they feel comfortable or capable of doing for the benefit of the other student.
> So my experience only confirms to me the skill that the Chi-Sau sections, tedious as they may be, DO give to someone to do exactly what we should do in Wing Chun.



We do pretty much the same at the school I am at. In fact I have been the guinea pig. Last week, although not sparring, we to simulate an untrained street warrior launching a punch, but a swinger from the hips. I believe in April, we are going to have a session where this type of stuff will practiced.


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## geezer (Jan 28, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Hey geezer, I've addressed this question on here before. How can we simplify what we are doing and streamline it?
> In our group we train 7 chi sau sections based on SNT and CK, 4 sections based on BT, 8 sections based on MYJ and 1 chi gerk section, for a total of 20 sections....
> I wonder sometimes if there is a simpler way that would still convey all that we want to convey without schlepping through 20 sections????


OK, in what I do there are about 12 "lat sau" programs, 20 or so Chi-sau section, and 5 forms including the weapos sets. Then the _chi-sau sets_ are constantly evolving and changing, so for many we have old "Hong Kong" versions, and various EWTO versions... and each section is fairly complex as you can see from the clip below:





 
Now, for the record, these guys are from a different organization so I do this section somewhat differently. But the point is that it's _a lot_ of choreographed movement to learn. When I first learned from LT, there was nothing like the lat sau program today, and there wre not nearly so many sections. The curriculum has expanded faster than a govt. program. And similar to a bloated govt. program, I doubt it's efficiency.

Another thing Yak. I don't know how many advanced students are at your school, but I teach a very small group. Since I returned to WC, it has taken me a number of years to get a couple of students along pretty far. And nobody into the Biu Tze or Dummy material, so even though I teach, there's nobody to practice the advanced stuff with. Combine that with a complicated and complex curriculum and it's a real problem to keep it all straight.


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## Kwan Sau (Jan 28, 2015)

KPM said:


> These kind of complicated/complex Chi Sau curriculums are exactly why I think Chi Sau is somewhat irrelevant for real fighting.  Oh...it trains you great for fighting another WIng Chun guy!  But no non-Wing Chun opponent is going to give you the opportunity to do all this fancy Lat Sau stuff.  Too much of it depends on the opponent standing straight up in front of you with his arms relatively close together.  How often is that really going to happen?



Soooooooooo.....I guess kpm has quite a literal view when interpreting chi sau!


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## Danny T (Jan 28, 2015)

Once one understands chi sao, poon sao, and the associated drills all the trapping is about learning timing. Don't get caught up in the drills. You don't fight with drills. There may be a piece of a drill utilized, more often a piece of one drill and a piece of another will be used and not just the one drill. It is about learning timing, breaking the cadence, using off timing, attacking, and counter-attacking.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 28, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Soooooooooo.....I guess kpm has quite a literal view when interpreting chi sau!





Danny T said:


> Once one understands chi sao, poon sao, and the associated drills all the trapping is about learning timing. Don't get caught up in the drills. You don't fight with drills. There may be a piece of a drill utilized, more often a piece of one drill and a piece of another will be used and not just the one drill. It is about learning timing, breaking the cadence, using off timing, attacking, and counter-attacking.


----------------------------------------------------
Chi sao is a very important part of good wing chun imo. Prepares you for sensing distance, openings, different kinds of timimg. It's not just for dealing with wing chun people.  Various forms of chi sao develops the versatility of the wing chun practitioner.


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## yak sao (Jan 28, 2015)

geezer said:


> OK, in what I do there are about 12 "lat sau" programs.............................................
> 
> Another thing Yak. I don't know how many advanced students are at your school, but I teach a very small group. Since I returned to WC, it has taken me a number of years to get a couple of students along pretty far. And nobody into the Biu Tze or Dummy material, so even though I teach, there's nobody to practice the advanced stuff with. Combine that with a complicated and complex curriculum and it's a real problem to keep it all straight.



I decided to abandon the European lat sau programs about 10 years ago.
Instead we train the HK lat sau drills and use much of what Emin developed when he split from LT and KK. It is much more streamlined.

As for training partners, I have a friend who I started WT with and we live within 2 miles of each other, so we train on a weekly basis. Otherwise, I have a handful of students who are training the 1st 4 sections and a couple who are into 5-7.
But I agree, sometimes I feel like I'm spinning plates trying to maintain the amount of material.


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## Danny T (Jan 28, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------
> Chi sao is a very important part of good wing chun imo. Prepares you for sensing distance, openings, different kinds of timimg. It's not just for dealing with wing chun people.  Various forms of chi sao develops the versatility of the wing chun practitioner.


Absolutely Joy, I agree. So many get stuck in drills and never move into applying. Didn't say Chi Sao and the associated drills are not important. They are however, once you know them don't get stuck and just be a great driller.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jan 29, 2015)

The moment people talk about superior chi sao, they have not understood the purpose of it. Chi sao is sparring. Its learning attributes whilst testing your structures and techniques under pressure. 
To say one group of schools is better at chi sao than another is again going back to the style vs style debate. Better methods of training, sure. But not all wing chun schools are aiming for the same thing. Ip Chun for example has a nice documentary on youtube on how he doesnt use wing chun for fighting or combat. 
So straight away, we have a group who will be using their chi sao for an entirely different purpose. Another group may use their chi sao to develop stick, sensitivity and technique. 
Another group may use it as full on sparring. In Kamon, for example, we have an 'anything goes' attitude, in that eventually, you should welcome any type of attack from your partner in chi sao, even if they are non-WC moves. 
Leung Tings group has always had controversy surrounding them, despite producing some great talent, and they are part of the reason for the politics that exists in WC


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## geezer (Jan 29, 2015)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Leung Tings group has always had controversy surrounding them, despite producing some great talent, and they are part of the reason for the politics that exists in WC



True that. Anyway, WELCOME BACK,_ KAMONGUY!  _Where ya been???


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## KPM (Jan 29, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Which is precisely why you should always seek to simply hit. If your opponent's arms are not on the center you make contact. If his arms are on center, then chi sau reflexes come into play.
> Simple...always keep it as simple as possible.



Exactly!  Which begs the question....would all the time spent training complicated Lat Sau drills against another Wing Chun guy be better spent training something else?


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## KPM (Jan 29, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Soooooooooo.....I guess kpm has quite a literal view when interpreting chi sau!


 
I guess it depends on what you mean by "literal"!  ;-)   But it seems to me so much of the trapping techniques and set ups depend upon a guy standing square in front of you with both arms out in front and pretty parallel to each other.  When is that going to happen in a real situation?  It is actually pretty hard to trap both of an opponent's arms with one of yours when he is not cooperating and doesn't stand like a Wing Chun guy.  Any decent boxer would essentially shrug you off and keep punching!


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## KPM (Jan 29, 2015)

Now don't get me wrong guys!  I believe that Chi Sau is an important part of Wing Chun.  I just think that many put way too much emphasis on it.  These complicated Lat Sau programs are an example of that.


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## PiedmontChun (Jan 30, 2015)

KPM said:


> I guess it depends on what you mean by "literal"!  ;-)   But it seems to me so much of the trapping techniques and set ups depend upon a guy standing square in front of you with both arms out in front and pretty parallel to each other.  When is that going to happen in a real situation?  It is actually pretty hard to trap both of an opponent's arms with one of yours when he is not cooperating and doesn't stand like a Wing Chun guy.  Any decent boxer would essentially shrug you off and keep punching!



I think there was a debate here not too long ago about chi-sau practiced via the lengthy sections like most WT/LT guys, or a more unscripted chi-sau program like in some other lineages that I was merely a spectator for. There was some 'agreeing to disagree" from many IIRC but someone pointed out that the lengthy sections were more about digesting the principles at work in the various attacks and defenses, not just directly applying them as techniques.

I agree with you. I think if we look for a real life defense situation to mirror a drill we have trained so we can respond exactly as it was trained, we are going to just eat a punch. But I would think the sensitivities developed, and the programmed reactions built up from the chi-sau / lat-sau sections provide the tools for controlling center and leaking thru an opponent's defense to attack once contact has been made.
Like I mentioned before, in my experience, I try to box with my WT si-hings when we spar and the moment I am not covering center, my hands or force retreats, or I give to much force they feel it and take advantage of it. Thats not a skill learned simply by sparring.


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## KPM (Jan 30, 2015)

I see what you are saying and agree with you.  But the more complicated something becomes, the less likely it is to actually work under pressure.  If something requires more than 3 steps or beats to carry out, it is not likely to work when you need it.  That is something that was really beaten into me from training FMA, and I've found it applies to Wing Chun as well.


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## Jake104 (Mar 2, 2015)

geezer said:


> Is "Fighterman" Fernandez crazy? Probably. But in a _good_ way! Check out the following clip. It's directed at the WC lineage, but IMO the problem he's addressing could apply to any of us. Please share your thoughts:


 I like Sifu Fernandez. He seems sincere and very genuine in sharing his art IMO. His training aproach looks like he tries to keep it realistic and honest. In his last video he mentioned he's being threatened for being to honest in his Leung Ting vs EWTO video series. So now allegedly the European Wing Tsun Mafia is after him and threatening to hurt him. Lol! Hopefully that doesn't scare him too much. If so, he definitely looses some street cred! Haha!


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