# Not full circle but close... maybe



## Xue Sheng (Nov 29, 2006)

I have returned to my Yang Sifus class. We had a bit of a meeting last week and it appears that he may wish to find that happy medium between the martial arts tai chi people and the health tai chi people. Which means he will not force them to do stuff they dont want and let them go stand on the sidelines and have there social hour while he teaches those that want to learn real tai chi. 

I went to my first class in about 6 months I get beat on, to be honest I was rather happy about this because this is the way Sifu use to be. 

We went through, as a class, the long form, the short dao form, the long dao form and bit of a discussion about 13 postures and then the long straight sword form. After going through the entire form he took me aside and told the rest of the class to work on push hands or they were welcome to follow along with us. He broke down the first 10 or so movements of the sword form into great detail, which means I had to do the first 10 or so postures 20 times or more. 1 trough 10 with correction followed by 1 through 10 with correction and then repeat and of course there where the STOP and hold the posture while he corrected. This is the way it use to be in the advanced class. The rest of the advanced class stopped after 2 times and went to the sidelines for their social hour. Sadly none of the advanced students were there that use to be, they are all gone. Hopefully he wants to bring this back to real tai chi but after a meeting and one class I certainly cannot tell if this is what it is or not but I am willing to see. 

After class there was also some discussion about me helping out in the first class with push hands training as well, but that remains to be seen. 

I can say that even though I have been doing Sanda training, Xingyi Santi shi, Yang style forms and even those Matt Furey Hindu squats and wall chair thing my legs are still tired today, not sore but tired and it is a good feeling. Maybe not as good as smacking a tree but I like it just the same.

I am committed to 15 weeks that is all, if it continues this way I will continue but if it goes back to what it had become I will leave and not return. Time will tell


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## Flying Crane (Nov 29, 2006)

Rock!


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## East Winds (Nov 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng,

Yeh, great news that you have returned to your roots.

Keep us posted

Very best wishes


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## Jade Tigress (Nov 30, 2006)

That is awesome XS. I hope things continue down the right path. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 18, 2006)

Interesting development

My Sifu appears to have changed direction for the better. He told the new advanced people that were not interested in push hands oo martial arts that they need to start working more on push hands. 

He is also appears to be using me as an example of how the sword form, that they still do not know after over 6 months, should be practiced. Meaning they should practice more and talk less. 

So far things are looking good, possibly just possibly. One of the good ones is coming back from the brink of the dreaded Tai Chi light for cash curse. 

I hope this is the case because in my opinion it would be a great loss to Taiji if he were to continue on the path he was on 6 months ago.


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## terryl965 (Dec 18, 2006)

Xue that is great news hopefully everything will work out


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## grydth (Jan 15, 2007)

I'd like to know what conditions had become so bad that you felt you had to leave in the first place...  when you refer to "one of the good ones coming back", is that a reference to the class, the teacher, another student?

I have to have some sympathy for the SIFU if he derives income to live off from his teaching... some, to pay the rent and utilities, have to take students other students might not want to share mat space with. It would be difficult for SIFU if the weekly tide washed in 6 'hippie/peace' types...... take them on and pay the heat bill... but risk losing harder core guys like you. 

Even if you don't respect what these 'lite' practitioners do, realize they make it financially possible for us to have quality SIFU available. Not everyone wants - or can be - warriors. Why not just ignore the New Agers? I see Tai Chi as you do - but these people genuinely offend you..... to the point where you would give up a quality teacher. Why?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 15, 2007)

grydth said:


> I'd like to know what conditions had become so bad that you felt you had to leave in the first place... when you refer to "one of the good ones coming back", is that a reference to the class, the teacher, another student?
> 
> I have to have some sympathy for the SIFU if he derives income to live off from his teaching... some, to pay the rent and utilities, have to take students other students might not want to share mat space with. It would be difficult for SIFU if the weekly tide washed in 6 'hippie/peace' types...... take them on and pay the heat bill... but risk losing harder core guys like you. ?


 
I&#8217;m talking about my Sifu. He was trained in Hong Kong, where he grew up and he was trained by Tung Ying Chieh. 

First my Sifu does not make his living from teaching Tai Chi he is a doctor. However he was talking about retiring and that is when the change started. And I have been through this here on MT sooooo many times and in the real world as well that I really do not want to go into detail again, it is here on MT somewhere. 

But what happened

12 years ago when I started training with my Sifu he was very hard on training. Start the form stop hold the posture while he walked around the room correcting everyone, try that holding a front kick it ain&#8217;t easy. He also asked people that were not training and just showing up why did they bother coming when it was obvious they did not train at home and did not want to learn. He had 2 classes and beginner and an advanced and you only got to the advanced if he thought you trained hard enough. He was VERY big on push hands and application he taught the internal side and there was even free style push hands in the advanced class. Fast forward 10 years and he is talking about retiring (He will be getting a full pension by the way) and all of a sudden his advanced class of less than a dozen people is inundated with a group from the beginner class that could not even do the long form correctly. And as time went on he allowed unqualified people to teach and even one to bully other beginners with what he called push hands and what was actually punching people in the chest. He no longer corrected form he no longer did push hands and he no linger did thing one to stop his advanced students from leaving in disgust. All left I was the second to last one to leave. About a month or less (if memory serves) his last advanced student left. This entire process took 2 years to go from good teacher to bad teacher and no matter what any of his long time students said it made no difference

Fast forward another 6 months he gets word to me via one of his students who was a patent of my wife&#8217;s that he would like to speak with me. After a meeting I went back and he is not as strict as he use to be but he is at least teaching me the way he use to teach the advanced class about 3 years ago. The bullying is not happening and he is correcting people&#8217;s forms again.

OK I&#8217;m done and I have missed stuff but that is that. There is more on MT about this, believe me it was the catalyst for the majority of my rants when I first got here. 




grydth said:


> Even if you don't respect what these 'lite' practitioners do, realize they make it financially possible for us to have quality SIFU available. Not everyone wants - or can be - warriors. Why not just ignore the New Agers? I see Tai Chi as you do - but these people genuinely offend you..... to the point where you would give up a quality teacher. Why?


 
Who said anything about warrior?

Lite practitioners meanig they are not interested in Tai Chi even for health they are interested in Tai Chi as a dance and for bragging rights.


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## grydth (Jan 15, 2007)

To me, this appears as a case of a man (your sifu) not dealing well with an approaching change of life - here the transition from professional life to retirement. Lots of men just seem to run 'out of gas', and question why they should go on with anything anymore...I don't see it as peculiar to the martial arts environment. In the Army we called it ROAD - Retired On Active Duty - older guys who were almost at retirement age, but were now empty uniforms who did just enough to coast by.

I wonder if a guy in his mental state even appreciated or cared about the sense of betrayal this entropy caused the senior students. I'd guess the unqualified beginners were just as uncomfortable with you advanced students as you were with them... in reality, neither you nor the lites were at fault here.

At some point in time, I hope you make it clear to sifu the rage and disappointment his acts caused. Some guys close out with grace, and many take the time to groom a successor. 

As skilled as our Sifu may be, they are just humans like the rest of us. Good fortune in this retry.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2007)

grydth said:


> To me, this appears as a case of a man (your sifu) not dealing well with an approaching change of life - here the transition from professional life to retirement. Lots of men just seem to run 'out of gas', and question why they should go on with anything anymore...I don't see it as peculiar to the martial arts environment. In the Army we called it ROAD - Retired On Active Duty - older guys who were almost at retirement age, but were now empty uniforms who did just enough to coast by.
> 
> I wonder if a guy in his mental state even appreciated or cared about the sense of betrayal this entropy caused the senior students. I'd guess the unqualified beginners were just as uncomfortable with you advanced students as you were with them... in reality, neither you nor the lites were at fault here.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, my sifu has yet to retire and to be honest you don't know the whole story and I am not going to go back into agian it here. 

But let me add this, and it is borderline rant. 

I have no problem with people going to a Tai Chi class for health and to be honest I really have no problem with people going to a Tai Chi class for the Tai Chi dance club and social hour. But it never stops there. I have seen 2 CMA schools go this route and 1 appears to be trying to come back but I have to say I do have my doubts.

What happens is that the people I refer to as Tai Chi lite show up and want tai chi because it is a peaceful moving meditation and they can go off and tell others that they practice Tai Chi and to be honest that doesnt really bother me that much either but what does bother me is that after they have been in class for awhile they see others doing applications, push hands and the martial arts of Tai Chi and they become offended because to them Tai Chi is much like Yoga but it moves more it is peaceful it is calm and that CERTAINLY has nothing to do with fighting. So what happens next they either leave or they bring more friends and generally they do not leave. After a while they begin to pressure the sifu with dollars and since they are offended by martial arts all martial arts training STOPS.

I taught Tai Chi at one point and I did not teach the martial arts of it at that time because my students were all beginners. I had one and only one student that was interested in the martial arts of it and I would stay late after class and no extra charge to discuss it with him and start him on applications. However I did, in one class after being asked a question about martial arts, let my students know that Tai Chi was a martial art, I did NOT force it on them but if they wanted to know more they could stay after and I would discuss it with them. I will never forget this but when I said Tai is a martial art one of my students that had up until that point been doing very good at the form said, rather loudly, Tai Chi is NOT karate and I did NOT sign up for KARATE and right then and there stormed out in the middle of class never to return. She had a friend that was studying with her stayed until the end of class but she never came back after that. 

Borderline rant over

And just as a note my Sifus most senior student has returned, and he was never interested in the martial arts of it but he has never tried to stop it form happening, he does stationary, 3 step ad four corner push hands but he does not get into applications and I get along with him just fine and I am happy he has come back.


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## grydth (Jan 16, 2007)

Well, my experiences have been much different, so its no surprise I see things differently. 

But bringing this history back is only annoying you, so I'll rest on my prior sincere wish of good luck and move on to another topic.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks


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