# Closed Guard



## Andrew Green (May 2, 2006)

This is where beginners tend to fight from, no matter how much you tell them to open it, so here is the question.  Closed guard can be very effective for setting up sweeps and submissions, if it is actively used and not just wrap the legs and hold on.  So what are some useful tips / strategies / set ups from a closed guard that you would pass on to beginners?  How do you actually make it a offensive position?


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## Eternal Beginner (May 2, 2006)

I just fought a girl in a tournament this weekend who did precisely that...hung on.  Very frustrating.  

My tip to beginners on using an open guard is learn to move your hips, don't lie flat on your back and hang on for dear life.


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## rutherford (May 2, 2006)

The only way to win by hanging on is if you're in a match that has stand-up rules.  If you're not fighting in such a match an you're hanging on, you're losing!

Don't lie flat on your back.  Small changes in hip position make a great deal of difference!

Always be looking for a sweep, an arm bar, a shoulder lock - anything!  Learn the feel for these openings, through time on the mats and good instruction.


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## MardiGras Bandit (May 2, 2006)

When I first started I trained with people much larger then me, and definitely fell into the hold on for dear life trap. Partialy because of that I developed a very good closed guard. Now I can catch most people I go against from there.

The best closed guard setups I know are rubber guard and whizzer. Rubber guard is amazing, it is very hard to escape from, especially if a person doesn't know how to deal with it. It is somewhat advanced however, and not great for beginners. I teach new people (I run a college club) whizzer setups (basically an arm wrap) to get triangles and omoplatas. It gives a lot of control and is easy to do, so people just starting have good luck with it and don't get frustrated.


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## Shogun (May 3, 2006)

Rubber guard.


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## Shogun (May 3, 2006)

seriously learn to control the head and shift the hips back and forth. seek armlocks. there are 4 basic armlocks you can get from this position. (Kimura, straight armlock, elbow/shoulder lock, omoplata)

rubber guard is great for closed guard. gogoplata, invisible collar, meat hook, etc


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

good stuff, basically what closed guard comes down to is don't be flat on your back, don't be directly under them, climb your legs up the back and try to force the arms away from the body, and keep moving, out to one side, then out to the other, keep them off balance and defending rather then trying to pass.  If you are defending their pass you aren't attacking 

Things like rubber guard are just one approach to accomplishing that.

The closed guard strategy I teach basically works off a few connected techniques that are easy to learn to do, arm bar, triangle, flowersweep and chicken wing.  Other stuff gets added, but those are th big ones in terms of learning the basics of what I want them to do when working closed guard.


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

At a training seminar, Rich P. and myself were training partners on Friday. We were working on knife deployment from grappling positions. This particular position was guy on top, you on bottom, and you try to deploy your knife. Your partner gives you a struggle and tries to prevent you from knife deployment.

Anyways, we found some success with the closed guard. From a mount if you can get your hips under him you can move to this position. From an open guard if he is trying to go for your knife or prevent you from going for your knife on your hip, a closed guard helps. You can besically can create distance between your hips and his hands, use your legs to help control his arms/hands, thus freeing your hands to deploy the knife. I'm fairly confident with this tactic because I was able to have some success with Rich giving me trouble; and Rich is 295 lbs. with a very long reach.

I will play with this more in our Combat Researchers Guild, though, and see where it goes.

Paul


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

scenario is interesting, and what you are capable of will depend on what your partner is capable off.  Bottom of side mount or mount would be dangerous with a skilled guy as you would be getting punched obviously, and not just that reaching down gives him a great opportunity for a chicken wing.

Closed guard would work, get out to the side first (I assume this is what you are doing) and keep him down with your legs, from a underhook go for it.  If he reaches back to stop you chicken wing him 

Which leads to a interesting idea about bluffing, reach for a non-existant weapon to create a opening for a submission or sweep, anyone considered that in training?


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

We grapple a lot, but I am not a MMA buff, so I may not be up on your terminology. Could you briefly explain the closed guard for me so that I know we are talking about the same thing?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

where you got both legs around the guys back


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

Your on the bottom fighting against their body weight, and gravity. Your strikes are weaker than theirs, and you cling on to them. This is not an offensive position. Get out from the bottom!


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> where you got both legs around the guys back


 
What is the guard position where your knees are pulled up to your chest and closed (so your not hip to hip, as used to create distance)?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

You mean knees together?  Not a good one, you'd get passed pretty easily...


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Your on the bottom fighting against their body weight, and gravity. Your strikes are weaker than theirs, and you cling on to them. This is not an offensive position. Get out from the bottom!



All depends, are you looking at it from a sport grappling POV or a MMA / real fight POV.

In sport grappling it can be very offensive, and sometimes you just end up there beyond your control.  Sometimes, it can even be the best place for you as Royce demonstrated years ago.  Not usually, but sometimes.


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

Sorry, I was looking at it from a real fight POV. Froma sport view, I would still think you're at a disadvantage down there, skilled or not, If the one on top is skilled also. (which I would assume in a sporting match).


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Sorry, I was looking at it from a real fight POV. Froma sport view, I would still think you're at a disadvantage down there, skilled or not, If the one on top is skilled also. (which I would assume in a sporting match).



In sport it depends on everyone's skill set and rules.  Take leg locks out and I think the bottom guy is at the advantage in guard, top guy has to pass before he can even think about attacking....


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> You mean knees together? Not a good one, you'd get passed pretty easily...


 
Knee's together, ankles still remain towards the outside so you can slip back to guard if he tries to pass, feet can be used to push off on his arms from elbow crease and manipulate his arms.

You may also be thinking competitive fighting rather then fighting. Remember, in the circumstance described I am creating distance and time to pull my knife out from my strong side hip, which can be accomplished before the guard is passed, regardless of the skill of my opponent. That is the whole point. I would love to have someone mount me while I have a knife in my hand....so I can kill them faster.

Besides that, I have seen the knees up guard, for lack of a better term, used successfully in competition. This is a transitionary manuver done by someone who doesn't want to sit in the guard for the entire match; the intention is never to stay in that position, and if the skill of the guy on bottom is there, this can be useful.

Sometimes something that one may think is "no good" in most situations they may be thinking of can be very good in a different context. 

Paul


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

I hear ya! I used the guard and submissions stuff at work and in training. From those experiences, It was much tougher to be down there in training (they knew the passing and counters/defenses), than at work. But still felt disadvantaged either way. That's what I was speaking from. For me, I would rather be on top. If using the guard, I would want a reversal to make it offensive.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> This is a transitionary manuver



That's it there, so no name.  Not a place you'd want to sit.  To easy to get passed or leg locked.

For making space I'd go with a different approach personally, but if this works for you then great 

Chances are if you have a knife involved the other guy isn't a "skilled" fighter anyways


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

Hopefully not! I wouldn't want to be using the guard if they have a knife.


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Just to clarify; YOUR on bottom, YOUR knife is sheathed still. HE is on top without a knife. The assumption in this scenario was that you were taken by suprise and taken down and ended up on the bottom before you could deploy your knife. Often in a situation like this your opponent might not even know that you are armed at all, or until he is on top of you and you go to deploy. You are working on the skill of being able to get to your knife while he is trying to fight you and prevent that from happening, or getting to your knife first.

Anyways, I agree that a closed knee guard is not a place to stay, but it does help to transition to other things.


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## Hand Sword (May 8, 2006)

If you are on the bottom, you will need both of your hands free to deal with the attacker effectively. So, I would advise: don't go for your knife then, work to gain some distance first, then pull. Again, as this would be a real encounter, I say get out from the bottom! At least on top you can stabilize and use 1 hand to choke, holding them down, while you draw a weapon.


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> If you are on the bottom, you will need both of your hands free to deal with the attacker effectively. So, I would advise: don't go for your knife then, work to gain some distance first, then pull. Again, as this would be a real encounter, I say get out from the bottom! At least on top you can stabilize and use 1 hand to choke, holding them down, while you draw a weapon.


 
I agree. THat was what bringing your knees up as a transitionary move accomplishes.


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## MardiGras Bandit (May 8, 2006)

When you say knees up guard are you talking about butterfly guard, when the bottom guy has his feet inside of the top guys thighs and uses it to set up sweeps?

The guard can be a very offensive position, although activley seeking to get there in a fight might not be the best idea. Yes, you are on the bottom, but if you are going to be on the bottom it gives you the greatest offensive and defensive potential. It's not hard to control a person who isn't used to being in the guard. Once you have control you can either hunt for sweeps and subs or wait for someone to pull you apart.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

No, he's refering to pulling your knees together, planting them on the guys chest to make space.  If it is to draw a weapon I could see it having potential, but in a sport environment it's a bad idea as you will get passed or leg locked very quickly.


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> When you say knees up guard are you talking about butterfly guard, when the bottom guy has his feet inside of the top guys thighs and uses it to set up sweeps?
> 
> The guard can be a very offensive position, although activley seeking to get there in a fight might not be the best idea. Yes, you are on the bottom, but if you are going to be on the bottom it gives you the greatest offensive and defensive potential. It's not hard to control a person who isn't used to being in the guard. Once you have control you can either hunt for sweeps and subs or wait for someone to pull you apart.


 
Yes, actually I am refering to the butterfly guard, but I wasn't explaining it properly. The key is your using your feet to post on the guys hips, thighs, or even arms to create distance for knife access. Anyways, it ended up working well for accessing a knife.


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yes, actually I am refering to the butterfly guard, but I wasn't explaining it properly. The key is your using your feet to post on the guys hips, thighs, or even arms to create distance for knife access. Anyways, it ended up working well for accessing a knife.



I don't think you are:

"Knee's together, ankles still remain towards the outside so you can slip back to guard if he tries to pass,"

Butterfly guard is feet under him, hooked under his legs and knees out wide.  Like the butterfly stretch where you put your feet together and push your knees to the floor.


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I don't think you are:
> 
> "Knee's together, ankles still remain towards the outside so you can slip back to guard if he tries to pass,"
> 
> Butterfly guard is feet under him, hooked under his legs and knees out wide. Like the butterfly stretch where you put your feet together and push your knees to the floor.


 
No, that does sound right, sorta. Only with photo's could we find out for sure. Got any of the butterfly guard?


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## Andrew Green (May 8, 2006)

Butterfly guard sweeps (which shows butterfly guard)
http://www.grapplearts.com/Butterfly-Guard-Sweeps.htm


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## Cruentus (May 8, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Butterfly guard sweeps (which shows butterfly guard)
> http://www.grapplearts.com/Butterfly-Guard-Sweeps.htm


 
Dude thanks! We grapple because grappling is part of fighting, but I am not up on the sport terminology.

Your right it; it was similar but not the same. Instead of feet in between the guys thighs, my feet were posted on my partners hips. I flatened out and pushed off at the same time, which freed my hands to deploy my knife from my strong side hip. You can use your feet to post on shoulders and in between elbows if he grabs at your knife before you have it out.

If he doesn't know you pulled your knife (especially if you pull reverse grip and hide it behind your forearm), then you kind of want him to pass your guard so he will be fooled and will think he is dominant, and you can stab him and roll him over more easily from there.

If you don't want to be mounted, however, your knees have to tuck right back or you could end up in a mount or side mount because he can easily pass your legs to the side (I think that was what you were saying). That is why this is a transitionary position; not a position that one would stay in for any prolonged period.

I could see how this might be a bad idea if there is no knife to back you up, however. Like I said, we'll be playing with this more next week.

Paul


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## Makalakumu (May 8, 2006)

This vid of my brother and I.  He randomly attacked me and we went down and I put him in my guard.  I passed on sankaku and decided to work on Small Joint Manipulations.  I think that closed guard gives the opportunity to do this because you can really control your opponent.  I submitted my brother with Nikyo.


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