# Kwan certificates



## Master Todd Miller (Feb 12, 2005)

I am wondering if any of the Hapkido guys here have Kwan certificates?  I know many people claim to be members of various kwans and I am just wondering what dan certificates are awarded?  :ultracool


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## Paul B (Feb 13, 2005)

Hi Todd,

My old teacher had certs from Yun Mu Kwan. I don't recall if they were for Dahn rank or not though. I never really eyeballed them much. It was just something on the wall,ya know? 

That being said,my early gup certs are from WHF,but no reference to YMK is on them,I couldn't tell you what or why that is.:idunno:


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## glad2bhere (Feb 13, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

The earliest certificates were suppose to have been Kwan certificates but Westerners simply didn't seem to understand the idea of what a kwan was about. It was simply easier to identify a federation, asscoication, club or school than try to get people to understand how a kwan works.  Its the same for rank such as gueps or dan ranks. The Korean culture never used these but if it weren't for ranks I would bet many folks would simply have nothing else to talk about. Watch most of the Nets and sooner or later somebody is making a big deal about how "their" rank is somehow more authentic than somebody elses. It also a huge part of the old "carrot-and-stick" approach to getting students to hang around. You mostly can't get them to buy into the idea of personal growth so you kinda  hafta 'bribe" them with rank advancement (for a price). Its also the same with the higher ranks, believe it or not. There are actually Black Belts who bounce from teacher to teacher and organization to organization in the hope leveraging their school enrollment into a rank advancement. Of course, the guy who does this is never going to tell his students that what he is doing. He'll just casually mention his rank and let them draw silly confusion about what they think its means.  MA in America, I guess. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Feb 13, 2005)

I hear you on that one,Bruce. I ran into the same type of thing when doing weapons classes. The typical response was.."Whaddya mean there's no rank?" followed by the "Then why the heck would I study it?" look...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Jeesh,how about just studying for knowledge,eh? I told 'em I would give them my belt,if they needed to have one. They just kinda looked at me weird and left...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I don't get paid for those classes,either,so it's not like _I need them._ 

I think the whole "rank chasing/organizational bs" has got to be the biggest detriment to "true" martial arts there is. Shame.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 13, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

"....I hear you on that one,Bruce. I ran into the same type of thing when doing weapons classes. The typical response was.."Whaddya mean there's no rank?" followed by the "Then why the heck would I study it?" look..." 

I had sort of an odd thought reading your post, but I don't know if this is going to come out right or not. Work with me for a second. 

I know what you are saying about people not understanding learning for the joy of learning. For instance, my wife finds time in the kitchen discovering new recipes very therapeutic after a week in the corporate sector. But now, lets turn the card a bit and look from another angle.... 

How many sources of education or self-actualization charge (sometimes heavily) for people to grow? I am not speaking of the whole idea of someone making a living as a teacher, this is a bit different. Used to be that if a person wanted to learn something there were these events--- Chatauqua --- started in 1874---- where one could go to listen to concerts and lectures. Nowadays if a person wants to have a self-actualizing experience they have to go to some person or place where the service is provided, *for a price*. In fact, this has become so ingrained in our society that the possession of a degree, Masters, Doctoral and even post-doctoral degree are used as criteria for hiring. I'm not talking about professions, but rather Human Resource people use the possession of a degree to cull out candidates who are vying for the same job. And I have met some real Bozo-s who have doctorates but got the job because they were at the top of the academic food-chain. 
Now, lets go back to MA. 

Lets say that a person wants to learn a MA. They are, to some extent limited by what is in their area, yes? And then they are limited by what a person can pay for the education. And maybe that education is not exactly what they want. Maybe they want to learn Korean sword and all thats available is Western Fencing, yes? And then they find out that there is a Korean sword class but its three hours away and the cost is $100US a month. See where this is going?  Now, lets factor in "turf". 

Maybe as your teacher "I" don't WANT you going somewhere else, Right?  Not that I know what you want to know, so maybe I can't teach you. All the same I don't want to share your revenues with anyone else. Maybe I make some stuff up, or teach you something else I know but under the guise of it being close to what you are looking for. And what if I know something but there is simply not enough interest in what I DO know, so I teach some cut-rate activity because its more profitable? For instance, there are a lot of folks who teach TKD--- to kids--- because teaching TKD to kids is more porfitable. What happens to Hapkido? Well, the moment somebody finds out its hard work, difficult to learn and many times uncomfortable they drop it for something thats less demanding. 

I could probably ramble on and on about this, but I seriously worry for the nature and content of the traditions we practice. I'm not even talking about one persons particular take on it, like a particular style or organization. I am just talking about the arts as a whole. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm gonna do a no-no and type as I think.......*just a warning* 


The thing about commercialism in a Dojang is money,and how greed becomes too big of a focus. The sad thing is,people will often compromise their basic core values just to make little Johnny or Susie feel better about going to their classes. There is both a dumbing-down and a watering-down effect on technique and principle. This does not set well with me. 

What is the long term outlook for a school that compromises its' values? Will they end up running a paper mill and surviving on the never-ceasing tide of newbies that come for a week or so and then quit? Where does it end? People know when they are replaced with $ signs in the instructors eyes and will eventually get fed up with all the crap and leave,but the thing is,the Mcdojang already has their money...."Next!"

I would like to think that one could have both a commercial school and still retain their integrity of purpose. As we both know well,the road to hell is paved with good intentions. We all know where the Mcdojangs are at,we drive by them and see the mass of little kids with black belts running around on the mat and playing. What message does that send to the public at large about MA? MA is something for "the kids" and it gives M and D a breather before packing them off to bed. I mean seriously,we all know the look that you get as an adult when the fact you study MA comes up. That look does not bode well for our future.

However much we gripe and lament our position,I do believe that we can make a difference in our own little spaces,and maybe someday our students will spread that difference around. What else can you do,really? I guess it's a little like the "pay it forward" concept,maybe a little starry-eyed optimism on my part,but at least I am aware of the problems and am taking steps forward in "my space."

I hope I didn't ramble too much....:uhyeah:  BTW...I just bought "Mu Su"...can't wait!


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## glad2bhere (Feb 15, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

".....However much we gripe and lament our position,I do believe that we can make a difference in our own little spaces,and maybe someday our students will spread that difference around. What else can you do,really? I guess it's a little like the "pay it forward" concept,maybe a little starry-eyed optimism on my part,but at least I am aware of the problems and am taking steps forward in "my space."...." 

This is where you begin to step across the line into the Warriors Path. 

So often on these Nets there is a lot of talk about "street effectiveness" or Full Contact competition. Questions about what would work for "real" get talked about ad nauseum. The fact is that only a very tiny part of the MA population will actually ever use their training in a combat situation and almost noone in a life-or-death situation as are often used for examples.  

ON THE OTHER hand EVERY ONE OF US will have to go into our society on a daily basis and have to deal with people. I can tell you that it takes NO CHARACTER to deal with folks in some sort of slip-shod, impulsive way. It takes no character at all to punish transgressors or think only of oneself.  What takes Character--- the kind of Chracter we hope to build through regular MA training----- is to deal with people on a daily basis by coming out of the BEST PART of yourself so as to invite them out of the best part of THEIR Self. Get enough people doing this and the society/community gets better and THAT is the goal of Martial Arts. For myself, I subscribe to the Korean take on Matrial Arts and Martial Science but that is just my particular choice. Anyone elses' "mileage may vary".  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Feb 15, 2005)

> it takes NO CHARACTER to deal with folks in some sort of slip-shod, impulsive way. It takes no character at all to punish transgressors or think only of oneself.


Oh man...I would urge every KMAist and MAist in general,to take a deep long look at this statement and reflect on its' implications. Good stuff.



> What takes Character--- the kind of Chracter we hope to build through regular MA training----- is to deal with people on a daily basis by coming out of the BEST PART of yourself so as to invite them out of the best part of THEIR Self.


I think people that adhere to this philosophy are in short supply and that is what we need to realize as being lost somewhere.......the "Do". I don't feel that the "Do" has any ownership by or for org's,kwan,or any product of mans' invention. IMVHO_....._it's a bigger part of the Arts than is (factually) realized and is being "used" inappropriately by some and it's not up to you or me or anybody to correct them or bludgeon them back towards the "Do"... Now I feel that this is the root of everyone's problems with other practitioners of any art. Just for CMYA's sake,I am not claiming "I" know I am on the right path,but where I am at sure feels better than drowning in negativity and uncertainty.

Some other questions one might ask and reflect upon....come on...it's a good thing....... 

1. What does the "Do" mean in an art.......really? If you come up with just  what it means as a name... I would urge you to look deeper.

2. How does this meaning reflect on my veiws of other arts,or even other practitioners of the art I study,or even my veiw of myself?

3. By comparing myself to others or comparing Arts,how do I benefit(intellectually) by this comparison?

I think that this is the crux of the matter.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 15, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

I guess I am not following. You don't find the "Do". The "Do" finds you. Its not as though someone goes out one day and says "I am going to select a Do". Now you can make yourself open to a "Do" but thats a different bit. 

Lets say that I wanted my Path to be as a painter--- an artist. If its not in the cards I can do all the painting I want and it will never be my Do. I might even become wealthy selling my pictures and have people asking for my work. That doesn't mean thats my Do. Flipping the coin over I can choose to rebell against my Do. Maybe my Path is to take me into being an Engineer. Based on my life (and maybe previous lives) the optimal Path for me is through the challenges one finds in the life of an Engineer. However, maybe I don't WANT to be an Engineer. I can fight it tooth and nail, and in my next life too. Maybe I will suceesfully resist being an Engineer but then I will have expended all that energy plus following some Path more attractive to me but less redeeming for the growth of my Self. 

We would not be the first people to look at the side of a mountain and see the road coursing back and forth and think to ourselves that it would be faster to forget the sepentine road and just climb up the side. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Feb 15, 2005)

> You don't find the "Do". The "Do" finds you


Agreed,but in an MA specific "way" one does,in a manner,chose their "Do". Now,whether they can see the Do for what values or ideals it espouses is entirely up to their efforts. I think that was what you were reffering to in this bit below,which is what I was after. *noone has ever accused me of being clear* :lol:



> Now you can make yourself open to a "Do" but thats a different bit.


 
Now here's a question pertaining to the "Do" and "kwan". It is my understanding of a kwan,is that it is a particular way of doing things within a specific style or Do...(I know,scratching the surface),now what I don't get is why people insist on saying my kwan or style of doing things is better,when the "Do" is the same? Wouldn't that act in itself be contrary to the "Do"? It would be like my liver arguing that my lungs are doing things wrong and not realizing they are a part of my body,and one doesn't exist w/o the other. Is this making sense to you? I know what I am trying to say...darn it! :lol:


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## glad2bhere (Feb 15, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

".....Agreed,but in an MA specific "way" one does,in a manner,chose their "Do"......" 

Well, yes and no. Actually more "no" than "yes". Yes, I can choose a method such as MA. I can even get so tied into the MA that the MA is all that I see. I lose track of the "Do".  I can also pursue a martial activity my whole life and never find a "Do". I can also find a "Do" without ever practicing a MA. To the best of my understanding the MA teacher is one who is capable of coaching a person in an effort to find-out if a MA activity figures into their "Do" and how to manage their lives if it does. Not everyone can run their life according to a Code. This crap about how MA is for everyone is just so much marketing. 

In my case the pursuit of martial arts inbues me with certain powers. Among these are fighting skills, management skils, decision-making skills, teaching skills and so forth. It takes Character to use these skills in the best interests of the myself so that I can habitually act in the best interests of my community. The "Do" as I see it for myself would be to be the best "Bruce" I can be so that I can be the best servant to my community I can be. The hammer and anvil necessary to forge the "Best Bruce" is the MA training I participate in. For some people its Baseball, Accounting, Parenting, Stock Car Racing or whatever. But these are just actitivites the way Hapkido is just an activity. The "Do" is the path that is followed by one's Self. For me the MA is solely the forge that contributes to the production of that Self which is on the journey. 

As far as the "Kwan" goes...... 

Well, every culture has an institution that contributes to helping a person on their Path. These are really way to numerous to even begin to name here. ONE institution that the Korean culture has is the "Kwan". The "Kwan" in its simplest terms is nothing more than a group of folks who have decided on a goal and a method for securing (or at least moving towards) that goal. You can have a political kwan, a religious kwan. In days of old it was very popular to have kwans for poetry in which people got together (usually with benefit of alcohol) and discussed the nature of poetry. People can be part of a kwan that agrees that they are in search of their "Do" and the method for doing this is to examine martial traditions to identify a relationship. These kwan are usually close-knit, almost family-like, mutually supportive and intensely passionate about their goals and methods. Knowing the Korean history, its not surprising that Korean would develope such a close-knit and exclusive institution. But then, we Americans have our frats, sororities and benevolent societies, too, so who are we to woof, right? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Paul B (Feb 15, 2005)

.......and that's what I get for trying to put things in a box. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Thanks Bruce,I'm off to find a poetry kwan,I may need some of their benefits.


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## Master Todd Miller (Feb 15, 2005)

What do you all think when one uses the name of an extinct kwan and claims to be a part of this?

When the Kwan was not used even before one joined this organization!

I think it smells a little like misrepresenting themselves.


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## Paul B (Feb 15, 2005)

Serious rant alert............:soapbox: 



Hmmm...I think I see what's going on now after being around to a couple of different sites. If YMK did not exist in '91...why is there a brass/copper plate from the WHF in my Dojang from '92 plainly stating YMK? Not to mention about a half dozen certificates of completion (Signed by GM Myung)or recognition of service from said "extinct" kwan dated variously from 91-94. I do believe these certs and plaques are in a box at the Dojang,if they have not been removed,I could make a copy of them and the plate for you if you don't believe me,but why the hell would I care? 

Just for the record......I'm not a member of any Kwan or "authentic"/"orthodox"/"pure" brand of Hapkido and I also have zero political bent(wonder why?) Also...for the love of whatever diety you hold dear,stop picking fights on different sites...take it to frickin' PM,please! I really don't care what peoples opinions are of other people's "styles" be they......"authentic",......"Kwan","pink-polka dotted and covered in peanut butter"....... it makes not an iota of diff to me and probably others.

If I recall correctly my old teacher was the old midwest director for the WHF and was the then highest ranked rep for the WHF in the area until around 98 or 99 I believe and I'm 98% positive he received these things personally from GM Myung.

Also if you look in the textbook series put out by GM Myung,it plainly states "YONMOOKWAN Hapkido Association members" pgs 31...in these textbooks you will also find the picture from the other site on pg 17. Along with pictures of my teacher in different schools where GM Myung was visiting,and even a quote by him in the newspaper clipping part. Guys...come on! This is turning into a "My Dad can beat up your Dad" thing...jeesh,why are people so desperate to engage in negativity?

I apologize to the moderators,but I needed to get that off my chest.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 16, 2005)

Dear Paul: 

One of the reasons "kwans" can only work in name only here in the States is that the basic premise is a group to which one brings things NOT one which people take things from. here in the States the sense of entitlement produces people who come to an event with the idea that "well, I paid my money, now where are my goodies?" In the traditinal kwan people come together and pitch-in to the kitty--- for the betterment of the study group, if you will. let me use an example from a little while ago. 

Remember when I was talking about commonalities among Hapkido art practitioners and I mentioned the need for a common Taxonomy? Ok, so a group of people get together and pay $30 dollars for a weekend of discussion about common terminology. At the end of the weekend they would probably expect to all go home with a syllabus of terms for their trouble and money, right? At a kwan, if a problem with accomplishing the goal was identified as no common terminology, everyone would pitch-in, perhaps with some gentle guidance from the identified mentor, to establish a working taxonomy everyone could use together. I don't think folks would expect that their taxonomy would be picked-up as a standard for grading others, or be sold out of TKD TIMES. Its just the group working to produce a better process to accomplish their goal.  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Feb 16, 2005)

Oppppsss..... 

Almost forgot. Not too put too fine a point on it, but you need to remember that the US is not the entire Martial Art world though I'll bet there are more than a few folks in the States who would like to think of themselves as the tail that wags the dog, ne? As I write this there are Yon Mu Kwan in a number of countries around the world including Turkey, Greece, Puerto Rico, and, yes, in Korea. Once again it is difficult for Americans to understand this as most folks understandably come out of a Western model of "association this" and "federation that".  I think this usually has a lot to do with which direction money goes and determining who is "in charge".  Kwans don't work like that.  I once used the idea of a hologram to explain this and I think the concept still holds. 

Like a photograph, with an association, if you cut it in half, you have two halves of an association. However, with a hologram, if you cut it in half, you have to half-sized image (in their entirety) of the original. Cut these in half and you now have two 1/4-sized duplicates of the original. The Korean Kwan works the same way. In fact, each individual could be said to be one minature representation of the larger Kwan. Put a bunch of kwans together in a hall and you get one large entity which will naturally produce an accepted mentor to coordinate things for the event. This has nothing to do with dan rank or standing. It has everything to do with folks naturally turning to the person with the most demonstrated skill at drawing the best out of people and the situation.  Westerners who are caught-up in the idea of "whose in charge" and "where is the money going" never seem to understand this and the result is that the kwan has never been a successful model in the West, though many people use the term. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Feb 17, 2005)

Greetings,

Kwan Certificates are only accepted by the Kwan itself, esspecially in our day with more formalized Asssociations. 
I don't know of any other HKD Association that recognizes Kwan certificates either.

The KHF for example won't recognize ANY Kwan issed certificates even from it's own member schools.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 17, 2005)

Thanks, Stuart.  I'm not sure how much the whole idea of acceptance plays out in reality, but its a good point all the same. Sometimes I feel that getting a certificate is a bit like report cards one would have recieved back in grade school. At the time they seemed like "everything" to parents, kids and teachers. Looking back as an accomplished adult I have to smile at all the drama they were imbued with at that time. There have actually been attempts made by agencies to do away with the whole idea of grading in the schools but I don't imagine they will have much luck. Like the grading system in the Schools, I think that these ranks have become an ingrained part of the KMA. Where I become concerned is that much of what is traditional in Korean martial culture is falling away or being discarded because it is simply not cost effective to keep these bits going. For instance, it is becoming nearly impossible to find anyone who teaches Korean knife material, and often stick material or sword material is introduced as "Korean" while the Korean material is ignored. Worse, yet, such "new" traditions as the ranking system contribute little if anything. And competitive events encourages a culture of hierarchy that works in direct contrast to the familial nature of the original traditions. 

I don't mean for this to be a rant so let me put this very suscinctly. 

Within the context of Korean culture, the kwan works with an attitude of "inclusion" rather than "exclusion". In other words, when approached it is not a matter of the person having the proper paper and the correct connections. Rather its is a matter of what the person brings to the kwan as a supporting member and with a focus towards accomplishing what all the kwan members identify as their goal. To speak of recognition is a bit like asking if Rugby players in Scotland will recognize the recipes of chefs from France.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## rana_hapkido_panama2002 (Feb 21, 2005)

Hi all and be blessed.

I am Ramon Navarro, HapKiDo Sabom, 4th Dan BB and assistent to Grand Master Park, SongIL 9th Dan BB and Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo founder as Father of HapKiDo in Panama on October 1976.

He developed this Kwan in Korea before he came to my country, Panama. Master Park was a 7th Dan back then. He was a direct student to HapKiDo DojuNim Mr. Ji, HanJae 10th Dan and father of modern HapKiDo from the original Seung Moo HapKiDo. Master Park was born in 1945 and at age 13 he started HapKiDo or in 1958. He, Master Park developed his own style called Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo and it is Song not from his name - Song IL - but from Song of nature. This Song represents nature sombolized with green of the trees. The translation of the name Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo is Green and alive Martial Arts School of HapKiDo.

How so ? Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo is like this: Song represents nature by the trees since trees are what creates air from which life sustains living and it is why it is called 'Green and alive', Moo represents Martial Arts and Kwan is school or style; HapKiDo is as every one knows - unless you do not know - is The Art of Coordinated Power.

Here in Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo  to have a Kwan you need to have enough experiense teaching the curriculum of Song Moo HapKiDo's Kwan to be an Instructor alowed by Mr. Park to open your own school.

We at Song Moo HapKiDo accept people from other countries to join our organization if you are wiling to work the Song Moo Kwan HapkiDo curriculum, travel to Panama and or form a group of a minimum of 25 persons for a seminar on introduction to Song Moo Kwan hapKiDo that could include HapKiDo basics and this is almost all to Black belt in 2 days, during a week end beter. You must have the need to be backed up by a serious organization and GM Park and I are willing to help you and back you up with all that is needed but iMPORTANT we - he  nor I - sell certificates !

Also you need to work with our curriculum and to have your students be willing to be part of all this changes. I can be certain to help you at the best of a mutual understanding in the best of your as our needs and interest !

If and when this is completed you will be able to reseive a Kwan Certificate from Grand Master Park. For furder information write me at rana_hapkido_panama2002@yahoo.com or at ramonnavarro123@yahoo.com

Sincerelly yours in HapKiDo.

HAP

Ramon Navarro
HapKiDo SabomNim
Song Moo Kwan HapKiDo
Panama Republic of Panama


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 21, 2005)

Kwan Certificates are only accepted by the Kwan itself, esspecially in our day with more formalized Asssociations. 
I don't know of any other HKD Association that recognizes Kwan certificates either.

The KHF for example won't recognize ANY Kwan issed certificates even from it's own member schools.

Please forgive my impertinence, but this question just begs to be asked. If the KHF won't recognize member kwan certificates, what's the reason for becoming a member of the KHF and why then do they list all those kwans that they say they recognize? Kind of sounds a little squirrelly don't you think? How does the KHF go about accepting an individual who wishes to become a member? I thought I read that they will accept your entry at your current rank, if the source of your rank is considered valid by their standards. To me that's accepting your kwan or organizational ranking.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 21, 2005)

Dear Brad: 

Sometime back there was a very uncomfortable time in the Hapkido community, that made a lot of people ask questions not unlike the one that you are asking. It was an ugly time and caused many people to question what terms like "recognized by...", or "accepted by..." or "certified by..." actually meant.  For instance, one very common point was for an organization to say that they were "recognized by the Korean government." This kind of stuff used to drive me up the wall. I've gotten better about this but not because I have ever gotten a good answer.  For instance, I know a point that is made with organizations is that a person who joins can "go to any member school in the organization."  Sometimes "free of charge" is added. Now, my personal experience having been in the Hapkido community for almost 20 years is that I have NEVER --- not once---- been turned away from an event because I was NOT a member of that organization.  I can also say that I have ALWAYS been expected to pay admission excepting those times when I have taught a module at the event. In like manner an organization will always take your money for tests, certification, membership fees and events. Whether you get back sufficent reward for your investment is, of course, your own affair. 

The way I have come to look at it, in a kwan, the testing and certification are signs along the road of your particular journey. Since no two people are headed to the same place, those road signs are only going to mean as much to you as is the importance of your destination. People are going to recognize, or not recognize the worth of your paper based on what they see you do and how they are feeling on a given day--- and nothing else. The idea of having a paper and walking into an activity anywhere in the World and having the room go quiet in awe is probably a pleasant fantsy--- but nothing more. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Feb 21, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Kwan Certificates are only accepted by the Kwan itself, esspecially in our day with more formalized Asssociations.
> I don't know of any other HKD Association that recognizes Kwan certificates either.
> 
> The KHF for example won't recognize ANY Kwan issed certificates even from it's own member schools.
> ...


Greetings,

Kwans of like minds and values all agreed to the "concept" of the a governing body which becomes more important than the individual, if it was the other way around the organization would be of no real value so to speak, with the Kwan and thier certs being of equal importance.

The KHF only accepts someone who joins through a recognized Kwan, and the the Master of that Kwan has to reccomend a student for KHF Dan rank, it is then up to the dan commitee to aprove the grade applied for.


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

Dear Todd: 

".....What do you all think when one uses the name of an extinct kwan and claims to be a part of this?

When the Kwan was not used even before one joined this organization!

I think it smells a little like misrepresenting themselves....." 

Since its been demonstrated that no misrepresentation has taken place, that the kwan is NOT extinct, and that I and other are in fact members of this Kwan wouldn't it be a nice thing to apologize for your posts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 14, 2005)

Nothing has been established as fact!!!   Until then  :whip:


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## glad2bhere (Apr 14, 2005)

".....Nothing has been established as fact!!! ...." 

I disagree. I think it has been demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt what kind of students Lim has. Whatever fancy claims you want to make about what you do, Todd, I think its pretty clear that you're too full of yourself to admit when you have made a mistake. 


Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Apr 15, 2005)

Bruce, 

It is sad when a 53 year old adult needs to resort to insulting anyone who does not agree with their view.

I will not keep going on with this.  You have your view I have mine lets just leave it at that.


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## Rick J (May 5, 2005)

Not to start anything here but I'm curious, was Bruce banned from this site because of his last post in this thread?

Rick.


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## shesulsa (May 6, 2005)

Rick J said:
			
		

> Not to start anything here but I'm curious, was Bruce banned from this site because of his last post in this thread?
> 
> Rick.


 This was a decision made by the admin team after careful consideration of a collection of posts and private communications.

 Remember, folks:  When a Moderator or other staff posts a warning in a thread, it is not always because of the post immediately preceeding the warning, Just as when a user is banned, it is not necessarily because of the last post on the board from that user.  In the interest of continuing flow of conversation and fairness, we will not (with rare exception) point out precise individuals and precise infractions in the public thread. 

 For more information, please contact the adminteam@martialtalk.com.

 Thanks for asking,

 Georgia Ketchmark
 Sr. Moderator


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