# Would There be More or Less



## lifewise (Jul 23, 2002)

What's your opinion - If SGM Parker was still alive, would there be more Kenpoists or less? Why?


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## Seig (Jul 24, 2002)

Obviously, if he were alive there would be *AT LEAST ONE MORE*
I do not think; however, that was the answer you were looking for.  I personally feel that if he were still alive there would be a lot more Kenpoist and a lot less splinter groups going on.  I believe that had he had the opportunity to continue his work and some of the things he was doing, he would have reached a lot more people. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 24, 2002)

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 25, 2002)

Without a doubt!!!  So many projects, and who knew, so little time.  A loss too great for words.  
-MB
UKS-Texas


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## Sigung86 (Jul 25, 2002)

I agree.

Dan


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## Klondike93 (Jul 25, 2002)

Not only more, but the quality of instruction would be a lot better.
Mostly because the fakes would be exposed and tossed aside with the rest of the trash.


:asian:


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## jazkiljok (Jul 25, 2002)

if history is anything to base something on- odds are that  popularity in american kenpo (and all its branches) has probably grown in part because of his passing. 

Ed Parker was at his zenith in popularity well before his passing- the 60s and 70s is where his own personal influence was greatest. 

the fracturing of his large parent organization into dozens of smaller ones has probably been beneficial to the overall growth of Kenpo. - dozens of self motivated groups through out the world vying for students is better for growth than one large family run business with the same goal. 


peace:asian:


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## KenpoGirl (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lifewise _
> 
> *What's your opinion - If SGM Parker was still alive, would there be more Kenpoists or less? Why? *




Another question you could ask would be ....

Would there be as many higher ranking instructors  (above 7th Dan) then there are now?

dot
:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 26, 2002)

I think that if Mr. Parker were still with us the amount of people signed up for Kenpo would be the same.

One of the things that my instructor and I were talking about the other day was this very same topic... We both think that Mr. Parker let the I.K.K.A. get too big too fast. The end result being todays off-shoot associations.

As for the number of high ranking Senior Kenpoists being out there... some would be there... others wouldn't be.

Just my Opinion,
Billy Lear


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I was told that Mr. Planas and Mr. Palanzo were both slated to be promoted to 8th Black. However Mr. Parker died before he could present it to them.  That is why I think in 1991 Mr. Palanzo strapped on the 8th...I think he felt he was entitled to it...:idunno:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 26, 2002)

I thunk he got it from the old (now defunct?) WKKO?  or some such ... by magnanimous approbation. 

Dan


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 26, 2002)

I have heard this from many...

EP was going to promote Huk and Joe to 8th, I beleive after he returned from Hawaii. Unfortunatley that never happened  .

It is rumored that Joe even went so far as to ask Mrs. Parker about it at the funeral...how true that is I don't know. 

When he formed the WKKA (Worldwide Kenpo Karate Association) he proclaimed he was an eighth degree black....

Maybe it was "devine right" , who knows....:shrug:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 26, 2002)

Sorry ... WKKA, not WKKO ... My apologies to anyone in the WKKO!

I may still have the minutes of the meeting around here somewhere.  Seems that it was given by the members in a big meeting, as I remember.

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _*
> Joe even went so far as to ask Mrs. Parker about it at the funeral...
> *



Mr. Parker wasn't even in the ground yet!!!!

Sad

:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 26, 2002)

Pathetic is more like it....


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## Kirk (Jul 26, 2002)

Amazing the things people do sometimes.  I heard there was 
more than one who acted in the same EXACT fashion.  I won't
ask you names Mr. C, but any truth to this?


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## tarabos (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



there would be a lot less tenth degrees running around that's for sure...


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## Sigung86 (Jul 26, 2002)

What is interesting is that there were, and are, plenty of self-serving people at the time of SGM Parker's passing.  However, it is not so very different than in any other system where the founder has died.  Look at all the infighting that went on in Jeet Kune Do.

Alas, as I have said before, it is not to good to put these "seniors" up on pedestals, because many many of them will be found to have clay feet.

Dan


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## Kirk (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> * Look at all the infighting that went on in Jeet Kune Do.*



The difference is, Bruce left a successor.  Made it clear publicly.


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## KenpoGirl (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Alas, as I have said before, it is not to good to put these "seniors" up on pedestals, because many many of them will be found to have clay feet.
> 
> Dan *



Amen to that!  :cheers: 



There are many seniors out there that deserve their high rank, I doubt that any of them would be 10th, if SGM Parker was still around.  Not so much because they don't deserve it but that out of respect for SGM I would think they would remain at 9th.  Unless SGM Parker ranked them to 10th himself.

Of course that would be a different story for those that were no longer with the IKKA, and having their own system / organization.  They would probablly continue to do as they wish.


Dot 
:asian:


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 26, 2002)

It's no secret that Mr. Parker ruled the IKKA and the American Kenpo community with an iron hand. If you got out of line you were axed from the association. A few were axed as recently as the late 80's. You just didn't mess with EP Sr. 

After his death, seeing that he never named a sucessor, (and I'm sure he never wanted too), Allot of people thought that the Committee (i.e. Executive VP of the IKKA) would step in. But it wasn't set up that way. EP Sr. never specified what he wanted to happen. 

This is all from what I have heard from the Seniors I have spoken to. I was not there but my take on it is that some people weren't happy with what the Parker family was doing, some were ambitious, what have you. Whatever it was here we are and you know what...it's not the stripes on your belt that makes you a great Kenpoist...it's the knowledge you posess.

Take all the stripes off and go back to solid black I say...:rofl: :idunno:


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## lifewise (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> Alas, as I have said before, it is not to good to put these "seniors" up on pedestals, because many many of them will be found to have clay feet.
> ...



I agree:asian:


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## lifewise (Jul 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Without a doubt!!!  So many projects, and who knew, so little time.  A loss too great for words.
> -MB
> UKS-Texas *



This is getting a little off topic, but it looks like most think there would be more Kenpoists if SGM Parker were still with us. 

I am interested to know what projects people knew of that he may of completed that would have contributed to the popularity of our art.


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## Michael Billings (Jul 26, 2002)

1.  Continue the video series that was just begun with his 1st two tapes.

2.  Additional volumes of Infinite Insights would have been material worked on in the 80's instead of 70's.

3.  The IKKA, specifically Mr. Parker appeared to have been working toward reconsolodating American Kenpo, less axing & more grafting.

4.  Additional guidance for Kenpo in the Movies.  I do not know what else Jeff Speakman or others could have done with Mr. Parker's influence and connections in Hollywood.

This is just scratching the surface.  His had an interest in computers, would be doing DVD's now instead of video, and a whole generation of martial artists have not been exposed to his enthusiasm, expertise, and personality.

Dennis put a list up once of some of the projects he was working on in that briefcase of his.  Then his son Edmund Jr. has shared others.  They could speak much more directly to this than I could.

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Doc (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> 
> *
> 
> I was told that Mr. Planas and Mr. Palanzo were both slated to be promoted to 8th Black. However Mr. Parker died before he could present it to them.  That is why I think in 1991 Mr. Palanzo strapped on the 8th...I think he felt he was entitled to it...:idunno: *



The first 8th was slated to be Chuck Sullivan as the most senior still affiliated with Mr. Parker. Chuck chose to, in his own way, turn it down. I have no doubt ultimately a lot of people would have made 8th and beyond.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Amazing the things people do sometimes.  I heard there was
> more than one who acted in the same EXACT fashion.  I won't
> ask you names Mr. C, but any truth to this? *



I won't deny it.

:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> The difference is, Bruce left a successor.  Made it clear publicly. *



That may be true Kirk, but it still did not stop a lot of internal strife in the JKD world.

It never stopped a lot of political strife in the Shorin-ryu world.

It never stopped a lot of political strife in the Shotokan world.

It never stopped a lot of political strife in the TKD/Hapkido world.

Point is that people are going to be what they are... There are folks out there like Dennis, myself, and one other guy, whose name I can't remember ( :rofl: )  who want equitable solutions to the ranking issue, but find that there is nothing really workable at this point in time.  Workable meaning something that everyone will abide by.  Too many people are either a)Too Independent within a given set of beneficial circumstance.  b) Too egotistical and want the biggest slice of whatever pie is set before them.

Let me put a hypothetical before you ... You are 25 years of age.  You take all your material and refine and organize it.  You go before a "qualifying" body and based on your amount of material, and your ability to perform it, they give you a 9th degree Black Belt.  Do you wear it?  Do you proclaim it?  Is it "really" valid?
If so why.  If not why?

Another hypothetical (well, maybe not so hypothetical) ... You are in your 40s.  You have been a 5th or 6th degree for a number of years.  You suddenly find yourself in an organization where everybody loves you.  They pronounce you an eighth, ninth, or perhaps even a tenth.  Do you accept it?  Do you wear it? Do you proclaim it?  Is it really valid?  If so why?  If not why?

What REAAAAAALLLLLYYYY is the difference between a ninth degree and a tenth degree Black Belt?  I have kind of been wondering that... And if it isn't a little hypocritcal to be given a ninth and then yell loud and long that you would never take a tenth?

Rank is probably something that should be laid out in complete fashion from yellow to tenth, eleventh, ... 15th Black (If we need to go that high).  There should not be any question as to what the requirements are for promotion to any given rank, at any given time in any system to include things like required techniques, kata, time in grade, types of possible service to the martial arts community, etc.  That would, in my perhaps not so humble opinion, eliminate a lot of the current BS.

It is pretty cut and dried in associations like the IKCA, where it is cradel to grave for promotion.  It is theoretically possible for every person in the IKCA to, someday, achieve a tenth degree Black.  That is how their association bylaws are laid out.  That is probably the way it should be in every association.  Notice that I'm not saying style.  Rank promotion in the higher echelons could not ever be laid back to a simple system requirement, as there are too many written and unwritten variables built into those requirements.

Jus' sum thoughts.

Dan

ps:  I leave you with the following, which is a collection of thoughts that was on a website.  It was written by one of SGM Parker's first bunch of Black Belts.  Simply for what it is worth.

Those who understand the "Parker principle" also understand why Ed never chose his successor. He had taught correct principles, and like Alexander the Great, he would leave succession to those who were best qualified. In the decade before Ed's premature death, he no longer taught. Rather he taught through his writings. He had seen the failure of American Kenpo, but it was not a failure of the system. Rather it was a failure of his American Kenpo black belts to teach the principles he established with American Kenpo. Some of these black belts left him to found their own organizations where they would teach their versions of American Kenpo. They took with them the techniques, but for the most part, they left his "correct principles" behind.

As with the untimely death of Alexander the Great, so to in the aftermath of Ed Parker's death, the American Kenpo empire has been divided. The IKKA has floundered due to defections, internal politics and divisiveness. Already American Kenpo is being interpreted and reinterpreted by Ed Parker's new American Kenpo black belts. Yet as Ed stated just three months before he died, none of his black belts knew the meaning of the flower he showed them.

In death Ed Parker has become a legend, bigger than life. His new black belts have scrambled to fill the void in the system. But American Kenpo was never a system. It is the visible expression of Ed Parker's philosophy. A philosophy that holds that correct principles replace style; a philosophy that allows the same move to be taught a myriad of ways with each way being the right way. Ed lamented, some three months before his death that he had awarded black belts, but none had earned his philosopher's cloak. None had learned to think for himself. Few were innovative.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

I'm glad I don't believe everything I read these days!

:rofl:   :shrug: 


:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I'm glad I don't believe everything I read these days!
> 
> ...



Maybe ... some of it, you should.  And Dennis... I'm not quite sure why you are trying so hard to deride what someone else has written, just out of hand.

Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _*
> Maybe ... some of it, you should.
> *



I do!  "Some" ..............   

I said; "I'm glad I don't believe *EVERYTHING* I read these days!


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## Sigung86 (Jul 27, 2002)

In my best Don Knotts imitiation ...

Well, I guess we can consider this another issue skirted and/or avoided and just in the nickof time too!

  :rofl:   

Don ... er ... Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

Gimmmmmmmmmeyyyyyy slack!@

:rofl:


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## Sigung86 (Jul 27, 2002)

I am sure that The Right Reverend BoB would gladly do that!  Me too!


SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCK!!!! is hereby granted!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan Farmer
Proxy Stand in for The Right Reverend BoB,
Head Doowhacker of the First Church of the Immaculate Misconception and Presumptuous Assumption


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

:rofl:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




This is right on with my reasons for not caring for *ANY* of the 10th's out there. No Mr. Parker is not around, but out of respect for their teacher they shouldn't except that rank.



> Let me put a hypothetical before you ... You are 25 years of age. You take all your material and refine and organize it. You go before a "qualifying" body and based on your amount of material, and your ability to perform it, they give you a 9th degree Black Belt. Do you wear it? Do you proclaim it? Is it "really" valid?



If you have created a new system then I supose you could wear it.




> Another hypothetical (well, maybe not so hypothetical) ... You are in your 40s. You have been a 5th or 6th degree for a number of years. You suddenly find yourself in an organization where everybody loves you. They pronounce you an eighth, ninth, or perhaps even a tenth. Do you accept it? Do you wear it? Do you proclaim it? Is it really valid? If so why? If not why?



No I would not. If your joining an organization just to get rank, what good are you? I would join because of what they do and how they represent american kenpo. I don't think this was so hypothetical because it looks to me like that's what has happened and why there are so many out there now.

My humble opinion

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> If your joining an organization just to get rank, what good are you?
> *


I couldn't agree more..... but there are many more out there than you would guess that do just that, and equally available are those out there that are glad to accommodate you with that fast promotion based upon whatever training you have........ the price must be right!

:asian:


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## Klondike93 (Jul 27, 2002)

Mercenary Kenpo Masters (will take promotion for the right price).


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jul 27, 2002)

I like that!

:rofl:


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