# Old Martial Arts techniques.



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Not sure how I got here, but since I'm here I might as well share.

This is an old WWI training video. You'll see some nice boxing and Kung fu concepts here.  Some of this stuff looks like modern boxing





FYI the leg grab and kick to the groin is legit.  I speak from experience on the receiving end.  I thought this was pretty awesome, not the war but the training.  You can catch glimpses of some of these guys smiling.

You'll see some Aikido like techniques as well. (above video)

The martial arts concept of the similarity of Empty hand fighting and weapon techniques.





Full training video


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


>


They're quick.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Can't say I am loving this move.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Meh.

We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Meh.
> 
> We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.



Some ways worse though.  More sportinised today than back then. 

I recall them installing or wanting to install some basics comabtives into people as the people who engaged in hand to hand combat with a comabt sport background on average did better than the people that didnt.    This is the U.K anyway.    

Its the intresting world where boxing had wrestling, and wrestling had boxing.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Meh.
> 
> We’ve clearly gotten better at hand to hand fighting since those videos were made. The old ways are definitely not the best ways.


Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are  the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors.  Are there mistakes in some of these?  of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like.  But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> Some ways worse though.  More sportinised today than back then.
> 
> I recall them installing or wanting to install some basics comabtives into people as the people who engaged in hand to hand combat with a comabt sport background on average did better than the people that didnt.    This is the U.K anyway.
> 
> Its the intresting world where boxing had wrestling, and wrestling had boxing.



It’s sport that has kept the martial arts as a whole from becoming obsolete, hence why plenty of “combative” training incorporates sports like boxing and Judo into their programs. Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are  the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors.  Are there mistakes in some of these?  of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like.  But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.



If there are mistakes that have been corrected by modern MAs, wouldn’t that make these older versions worse by default?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Can't say I am loving this move.
> 
> View attachment 23798


ha ha ha..slipping to the power hand side?  What's not to like? what could go wrong? lol.

Concept is solid he just slipped the punch on the wrong side.   The instructor that I used to spar a lot with used always slip my punches like that and I would always stop the match because of it.  You couldn't ask for a better set up to punch someone as hard as you can.  And you get the bonus of them moving  into the punch. To this day he still probably doesn't realize what he did wrong.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.


 This doesn't make any sense to me especially since martial arts sports use TMA techniques.  The concept of hooking under a punch can be seen in this video.  So the concept at the very lease is 72 years before the first UFC.

It's not that martial arts sports get better results than TMA martial arts school.  It fact is that there's less to figure out in terms of how to apply a technique because Martial arts sports has already done that.  Go to any TMA school and there's going to be some things that a student will have to figure out when it comes to martial arts application.

You can't just watch a video of Jow Ga techniques used in fighting in a high skill level competition.  Even worse you can't just go to any Jow Ga school and say.  "Hey can I throw some punches at you so I can record how you use your Jow Ga techniques."

Even when you do have video the people are never skilled enough to use their signature techniques.  Here's a Hung Ga video.  It has the same signature techniques as Jow Ga because Jow Ga uses Hung Ga techniques.  You have seen me do these techniques (the big wheel punches).  If I can do them why can't he do them?  I've seen MMA fighters successfully use long fist technique similar to what Hung ga uses, but we don't see this guy working those techniques.  So if you want to find someone who has it figured out then your best bet is to find someone in MMA that uses it.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> If there are mistakes that have been corrected by modern MAs, wouldn’t that make these older versions worse by default?


No, and here's why.  Just because you  see a soldier in an old video make a mistake doesn't mean others were making that same mistake.   Every TMA school that I have been expose to is always moving to the outside of punches because it's the safest path.  You can move to the inside of a punch but it's a high risk move.  If I move inside a punch, then I still have 2 arms that I have to deal with.   If I move outside of a punch then I only have one.  This is a concept that has been around since the 17th century for Hung Ga and probably even longer

So a lot of things that people claim to be making better just isn't true.  It's stuff that's been around for a long time and it's the just that modern generations are just now getting around to it.   People used to think Jon Jones kicks was usless until he laid it out on some fighters.  The public was more excited about the kick than he was.  To him it was just a push kick to the knee.  Not only has that technique been around for centuries it's found in many different Martial Art systems. 
So Jon Jones didn't make it better.  He just showed the world that it works

This stuff isn't new.  It just that a lot of TMA schools have changed their focuses from fight applications to forms performance


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This doesn't make any sense to me especially since martial arts sports use TMA techniques.  The concept of hooking under a punch can be seen in this video.  So the concept at the very lease is 72 years before the first UFC.
> 
> It's not that martial arts sports get better results than TMA martial arts school.  It fact is that there's less to figure out in terms of how to apply a technique because Martial arts sports has already done that.  Go to any TMA school and there's going to be some things that a student will have to figure out when it comes to martial arts application.



So what you’re saying is that after decades of studying a traditional Kung Fu, learning forms, weapons, tiger claws, etc. the best I can hope for is to end up fighting like a sloppy boxer? If that’s the case, why not just take boxing and get better results in far less time?



> You can't just watch a video of Jow Ga techniques used in fighting in a high skill level competition.  Even worse you can't just go to any Jow Ga school and say.  "Hey can I throw some punches at you so I can record how you use your Jow Ga techniques."
> 
> Even when you do have video the people are never skilled enough to use their signature techniques.  Here's a Hung Ga video.  It has the same signature techniques as Jow Ga because Jow Ga uses Hung Ga techniques.  You have seen me do these techniques (the big wheel punches).  If I can do them why can't he do them?  I've seen MMA fighters successfully use long fist technique similar to what Hung ga uses, but we don't see this guy working those techniques.  So if you want to find someone who has it figured out then your best bet is to find someone in MMA that uses it.



See above. You’re kind of making my point here.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No, and here's why.  Just because you  see a soldier in an old video make a mistake doesn't mean others were making that same mistake.   Every TMA school that I have been expose to is always moving to the outside of punches because it's the safest path.  You can move to the inside of a punch but it's a high risk move.  If I move inside a punch, then I still have 2 arms that I have to deal with.   If I move outside of a punch then I only have one.  This is a concept that has been around since the 17th century for Hung Ga and probably even longer
> 
> So a lot of things that people claim to be making better just isn't true.  It's stuff that's been around for a long time and it's the just that modern generations are just now getting around to it.   People used to think Jon Jones kicks was usless until he laid it out on some fighters.  The public was more excited about the kick than he was.  To him it was just a push kick to the knee.  Not only has that technique been around for centuries it's found in many different Martial Art systems.
> So Jon Jones didn't make it better.  He just showed the world that it works
> ...



And this leads back to the fundamental question; if TMAs are so adept at fighting, why aren’t we seeing TMA practitioners or systems dominating the combat sport circuits? If an up and coming MMA fighter is looking for a striking coach, 9/10 it’s going to be a boxing or MT coach. 

As always theory is nice to argue about, but for the people doing fighting for a living, the choices are established and clear.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> So what you’re saying is that after decades of studying a traditional Kung Fu, learning forms, weapons, tiger claws, etc. the best I can hope for is to end up fighting like a sloppy boxer?


What I'm saying is that just because he looked like a sloppy boxer, doesn't mean you'll look like a sloppy boxer doing the same technique.  However, if you don't train the technique then yes.  You'll look look like a sloppy boxer.  People who don't train to play the guitar, play like sloppy guitar players.   But if you train to play the guitar correctly, then it will hard to play like a sloppy guitar player.



Hanzou said:


> See above. You’re kind of making my point here.


The point that I'm making when made that comment is that very few people actually train Jow Ga like this.




Find this guy and he'll be able to show you a few things.

Find this school school and the chances that you'll find someone that can show you a few things in application are slim.





Most TMA schools within any system train like the second video and is made of people who look like those who are in the second video.   This is the school that I used to teach at.  Do these people look more like the first video or the second video?  Do any of these people look like they do or train to compete in MMA or even full contact kung fu. Lei tai?  The picture below is the norm of what you see in TMA schools because most of those people do not have any interest in competing at an MMA level.  The most they want to do is beat the guy attacking them on the street.




There are TMA schools that train professional fighters, but they aren't many and you really have to look for them.  Out of all the people in this picture only one was training for full contact.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> if TMAs are so adept at fighting, why aren’t we seeing TMA practitioners or systems dominating the combat sport circuits?


Because most TMA schools aren't focused on training fighters.  Most TMA schools focus on people who look like this. Who have no interest in fighting in MMA.   There are TMA schools that do train fighters but it's very few who do.  And those that do may train three or 4 from a school that looks like this.  

Even when I train to fight, I'm not trying to get to a level that would allow me to compete in MMA.  All I need is a level to that is good enough to allow me to hang with some amateur fighters and people on the street.  I've done the sports training before and it's a lot of work, and it requires more time than I have available.   When I trained for sports, it was easy for me to dedicate 5 hours a day to training.  I don't have 5 hours a day for training.  Some days I don't have any training hours available.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> As always theory is nice to argue about, but for the people doing fighting for a living, the choices are established and clear.


And now you prove my point.  I don't train to fight for a living.  I have an 8 hour job, then I have my kung fu training, then I have business responsibilities and family responsibilities.  Most of the time after my 8 hour job, I want to just relax.  And do other things.  If someone would pay me what I make now to train to fight, then yes.  I would train to fight in MMA.  Easily.  But they don't so I won't.   I'll only train to the level that I want to reach to be effective at dealing with someone on the street and to handle a few amateur fighters.

If you want to see TMA fighters in MMA then you have first find someone interested in an TMA system and then that person has to be willing to put in that much work.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> What I'm saying is that just because he looked like a sloppy boxer, doesn't mean you'll look like a sloppy boxer doing the same technique.  However, if you don't train the technique then yes.  You'll look look like a sloppy boxer.  People who don't train to play the guitar, play like sloppy guitar players.   But if you train to play the guitar correctly, then it will hard to play like a sloppy guitar player.



Yeah, you’re missing the point. The point is that despite all of those years of Kung Fu training, when it comes to actual fighting, they’re resorting to sloppy boxing. So again, if I’m looking to learn how to fight, why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?



> The point that I'm making when made that comment is that very few people actually train Jow Ga like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you miss the point again; Even if those schools aren’t training professional fighters, if they had the goods those fighters would still seek them out regardless. Why is that not happening? Because TMAs simply don’t have the goods in that regard. If you’re looking to make a career out of competitive fighting, you’re simply not going to waste your time (and money) learning an outdated fighting system that will put you at a competitive disadvantage.

Does that make TMAs worthless and useless? Of course not. However, it’s nonsense to believe that TMAs are on par with modern systems because they have older and less tested theories on fighting.


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## paitingman (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for sharing this @JowGaWolf 
Really cool old footage. 

People should also keep in mind that we are looking at some young men LEARNING combatives. 
The two soldiers demoing I am assuming were the two that picked it up fastest. 

Also as a southpaw, I slip jabs to the inside quite often. Like most defenses, you just can't be lazy about it.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And now you prove my point.  I don't train to fight for a living.  I have an 8 hour job, then I have my kung fu training, then I have business responsibilities and family responsibilities.  Most of the time after my 8 hour job, I want to just relax.  And do other things.  If someone would pay me what I make now to train to fight, then yes.  I would train to fight in MMA.  Easily.  But they don't so I won't.   I'll only train to the level that I want to reach to be effective at dealing with someone on the street and to handle a few amateur fighters.



How does that prove your point? Yeah, you’re not a professional fighter, and neither am I. However if we were, I seriously doubt either of us would consider Jow Ga as something to invest our training time into.



> If you want to see TMA fighters in MMA then you have first find someone interested in an TMA system and then that person has to be willing to put in that much work.



You’re simply not getting it for whatever reason; professional fighters would be interested in TMAs if those arts produced the desired RESULTS. They don’t, so the professional fighters go to arts that DO produce results. 

The vast majority of people in BJJ have zero interest in MMA fighting, but professional fighters and MMA gyms still seek out Bjj coaches because of the results.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?


Boxing is a pure striking art. Most CMA are the integration of both striking art and wrestling art. A CMA guy will know how to use a hook punch to set up an under hook, or use a uppercut to set up an over hook. The boxer doesn't.

The MA training path should be:

striking art -> striking art and wrestling art integration
wrestling art -> striking art and wrestling art integration

It should not be the other way around.

After my guys started to train Sanda (MMA without the ground game), they no longer have interest in the pure Chinese wrestling.

Going through the elementary school 6 times won't earn you a PhD degree. The MA PhD is striking art + wrestling art + ground game.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, you’re missing the point. The point is that despite all of those years of Kung Fu training, when it comes to actual fighting, they’re resorting to sloppy boxing. So again, if I’m looking to learn how to fight, why would I spend decades learning Hung Ga when I can get the same results much faster in western boxing?


You are confusing 2 different things.  What you are talking about right here are people who don't train to fight TMA.  When you train to fight TMA only TMA comes out.  You don't do sloppy boxing because you don't train boxing.  You train TMA.  People who abandon their techniques when engage in full contact abandon there TMA techniques because they don't train to fight with TMA techniques.

They may drill the techniques but they don't actually know how to apply them in free sparring.  This is totally different than someone who is actually using the techniques in free sparring.  This is why you are able to see the Jow Ga techniques in my sparring videos.  Some people will say that they train TMA to fight but in reality they don't get past the drilling part.

It only took me a year to learn how to apply most of the Jow Ga techniques that I show in my videos.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Does that make TMAs worthless and useless? Of course not. However, it’s nonsense to believe that TMAs are on par with modern systems because they have older and less tested theories on fighting


A lot of the techniques you hold in high regards in MMA are TMA techniques. They were around before MMA


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, you’re not a professional fighter, and neither am I. However if we were, I seriously doubt either of us would consider Jow Ga as something to invest our training time into


If I was going to be a professional fighter, here's what I would train.

Jow Ga Kung Fu and some BJJ, mainly escaping from it or countering it.  I would spend 8 hours day training,  5 hours for Jow Ga 2 hours for Bjj and 3 hours dedicated to strength training, cardio, and muscle endurance.  You wouldn't choose Jow Ga because you know nothing about it.  You don't train it.   Just like I wouldn't train Wing Chun. I know nothing about fighting with Wing Chun.  But yeah.  If I were to be a professional fighter I would choose Jow Ga easily.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The vast majority of people in BJJ have zero interest in MMA fighting,


And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA.  Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.  

Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best.  Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

paitingman said:


> Also as a southpaw, I slip jabs to the inside quite often. Like most defenses, you just can't be lazy about it.


I think jabs are a lower risk.  Jow Ga has a technique where we punch on the inside but they ware with punches directed to the face and not the body.  If you are slipping jabs to the body then I would be curious to know if your left hand is guarding your head as a way to avoid being hit with your opponents rear punch.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Boxing is a pure striking art. Most CMA are the integration of both striking art and wrestling art. A CMA guy will know how to use a hook punch to set up an under hook, or use a uppercut to set up an over hook. The boxer doesn't.



Simply because CMAs include "grappling" techniques doesn't give them an inherent advantage.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> A lot of the techniques you hold in high regards in MMA are TMA techniques. They were around before MMA



If we are going that argument. Boxing and wrestling were the two oldest martial arts there is. And were sport. 

TMA is the fad.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA.  Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.



Yeah, no one is saying otherwise.



> Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best.  Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.



They take Bjj because over the last 30 years of MMA, knowledge of the Bjj skill set has provided the desired results that justifies its practice. If Bjj exponents just gave out lip service and people who undertook that practice were not getting the desired results, professional fighters and MMA gyms would not seek Bjj instructors and coaches. That's what you're doing with traditional arts; giving out lip service about the efficacy of traditional MAs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Simply because CMAs include "grappling" techniques doesn't give them an inherent advantage.


The information is there. It's up to the individual to use it.

No matter how long that may stay in the elementary school, you will never be able to learn the quantum physics.

To a boxer, a hook is just a punch. To a CMA guy, a hook can be a punch, a wrist grab, or a downward parry.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> If we are going that argument. Boxing and wrestling were the two oldest martial arts there is. And were sport.
> 
> TMA is the fad.


Lei Tai is sport too and uses similar techniques,  Same as Sanda.  TMA = Traditional Martial Arts.  Boxing and Wrestling would qualify as a Traditional Martial Art.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I was going to be a professional fighter, here's what I would train.
> 
> Jow Ga Kung Fu and some BJJ, mainly escaping from it or countering it.  I would spend 8 hours day training,  5 hours for Jow Ga 2 hours for Bjj and 3 hours dedicated to strength training, cardio, and muscle endurance.  You wouldn't choose Jow Ga because you know nothing about it.  You don't train it.   Just like I wouldn't train Wing Chun. I know nothing about fighting with Wing Chun.  But yeah.  If I were to be a professional fighter I would choose Jow Ga easily.



I wouldn't train in Jow Ga because I have yet to see an MMA fighter effectively use it. I would instead invest in the MAs that have yielded the best results for the majority of MMA fighters, and that tends to be Muay Thai and Boxing. That would obviously change if a MMA fighter emerged with Jow Ga and dominated their fights using Jow Ga. However, the likelihood of that happening is slim to zero for a variety of reasons.


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Lei Tai is sport too and uses similar techniques,  Same as Sanda.  TMA = Traditional Martial Arts.  Boxing and Wrestling would qualify as a Traditional Martial Art.



The original comment was about sportive. And then became TMA. Which is where I was making the distinction.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> It’s sport that has kept the martial arts as a whole from becoming obsolete, hence why plenty of “combative” training incorporates sports like boxing and Judo into their programs. Things are more “sportinized” these days because people recognize that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts, and is simply more applicable to the modern era.



I think you're a little off here.  Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye.  Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly.  Where I train we do not train for sport competition.  There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.

I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" *IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT*.  In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules.  Non-sport MA has no such restrictions.  They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to each other's fighting environment.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The information is there. It's up to the individual to use it.
> 
> No matter how long that may stay in the elementary school, you will never be able to learn the quantum physics.
> 
> To a boxer, a hook is just a punch. To a CMA guy, a hook can be a punch, a wrist grab, or a downward parry.



And the boxer gets to apply that hook punch over and over again to the point of mastery, while the CMA guy is stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply. What was that old Bruce Lee quote? I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.

Like I said with Jow, theory is nice, but it's the results that matter.


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## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I think you're a little off here.  Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye.  Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly.  Where I train we do not train for sport competition.  There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.



I merely need to point to Judo vs Jujutsu to counter that argument. Jujutsu was pretty much dead in Japan, and it was Judo that preserved it, and helped keep it from dying out completely.



> I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" *IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT*.  In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules.  Non-sport MA has no such restrictions.  They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to the other's fighting environment.



Which is like saying that a traditional karate style has an advantage over sport karate style because they have a throat ripping technique. They've never ripped anyone's throat out. They've never been able to fully practice ripping someone's throat out in a sparring session. Thus when it comes time to use throat rip technique, they have no idea how to use it. Meanwhile, the sport karate guys have gotten punched in the face, kicked in the ribs, done tons of cardio, and knocked a few people out with their blows.

If the two schools get into a fight, I'm not betting on the throat rippers.

In sport-based martial arts we acknowledge that there is an "elite" tier of martial artists who professionally compete and are considered the best in the world.  In BJJ Gordon Ryan, Marcelo Garcia, and/or Roger Gracie are considered the GOATs. In Judo you have the olympians who are considered the top Judoka around. In MMA you have guys like Jon Jones or Aung Le Nsang. Are you saying that there are elite tier of traditional martial artists who simply don't compete and have never competed and would give the best martial athletes in the world a run for their money?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Examples of traditional Wrestling.










Traditional boxing









All of these are sportive except for the last one.  The last one is a tradition where you workout your beef with someone.  Where if you want to punch someone for whatever reason this is where it happens.  In other word.  If we all lived in this town,  some of us would have eaten some punches by now.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

MMA is still too young. Just give another 20 more years, you will see more TMA techniques used in UFC.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> while the CMA guy is stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply.


I can use mine with no problem.  I can apply it in more than one  way as well. As for "stuck with hundreds of techniques that he may never get to apply.  That's all on the fighter.  I have used more than 51 Jow Ga techniques successfully in free sparring and have mastered these well enough to use in an actual fight.  This only includes the techniques I've learned from forms.  It does not includes techniques that are taught outside of forms.  For me, I'm not "Stuck with stuff that I may never apply."

I know I'm not the norm, but I don't think I'm special either.  I think people who have the same drive to actually learn how to apply techniques have similar results if not better. I was a late bloomer due to the large break I had in training which spanded for more than 10 years.  Had I been able to continue training at a younger age I would have more time to learn how to apply techniques.  But things are what they.   My personal thoughts is that if someone doesn't get an opportunity to use what they train then they are doing one or more of these things.

Not sparring
Not trying to actually use the techniques
Not committing to the techniques (bailing out)
Only using the techniques in a Style A vs Style A environment.  My  personal experience is that  Style A vs Style B give more opportunity.   Style A vs Style A tends to know what each other is trying to do.   In a Style A vs Style B, environment  Style B will just take it as it comes.
Have not learned how to correctly do the technique which means he or she would not be able to apply the technique.
The key here is to do a lot of sparring.  The less sparring that you do the less opportunity you'll have to do different things.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I wouldn't train in Jow Ga because I have yet to see an MMA fighter effectively use it.


You don't need to see an MMA fighter use it effectively.  You haven't seen anyone throw a rock at someone's head in MMA either, but that doesn't stop you from knowing that it's valid and works

You know it works because you know how to throw a rock.  If you didn't know how to throw a rock then you may question the validity of it and doubt that it works.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Rule #1 for TMA application.  Don't make it complicated.  
If this is how you think of Kung fu application and basically TMA application regardless of the system, then you have to understand that this is now what the fighting looks like, nor should anyone think it will ever look like this.  This is training for a different purpose.  The ability to use some of these same techniques takes a less complicated path.  It takes a simple path and it's more direct.





Depending on what technique you use, and when you use it,  your fight may be very short.





The 20 chain combos, that you see in Wing Chun movies  "Tooooo complicated"
This is a Wing Chun practitioner in a Lei Tai fight.  As you see it doesn't take 20 chain punches to knock someone out.  That entire concept of many punches to cause more damage doesn't fit well with the reality of fighting.  A Wing Chun practitioner who is really training to apply their techniques are going to make each shot damaging, the soon your fall the better it is for them.





If you are making TMA techniques too complicated then you'll never learn how to apply it.  If you are expecting that movie or forms fighting in a real fight.  Then you'll never see it.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MMA is still too young. Just give another 20 more years, you will see more TMA techniques used in UFC.



Not with the way the modern arts are evolving. In 20 years traditional MAs are going to be even more out of step than they are currently.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The key here is to do a lot of sparring. The less sparring that you do the less opportunity you'll have to do different things.



I agree with this, but how many TMA schools frown upon sparring completely? Didn’t you get tossed out of you original JG school because you advocated sparring? So all the people at your old school aren’t sparring at all, and it’s probably a feature of Jow Ga schools to not spar. That in turn causes the art to stagnate and wither on a vine. 

Meanwhile arts in MMA gyms are sparring constantly, and constantly evolving. That has a dramatic effect between systems over time. Look at Aikido, Judo, and Bjj for example. Aikido has fallen so far off the wagon that some folks debate if it’s even a martial art anymore.


----------



## Buka (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And the vast majority of these people who have zero interest do not have the skills nor the dedicated training hours to be effective in MMA.  Some of these people who have BJJ skills would still lose in a street fight.
> 
> Professional fighters choose the skill sets that they feel will serve them best.  Some may take BJJ not to win by using it but to have a better understanding what the other person is trying to do to them and how to escape it.



Not to nit pick, but trying to escape what the other person is trying to do IS using it. In it's purest sense in my opinion.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> You don't need to see an MMA fighter use it effectively.  You haven't seen anyone throw a rock at someone's head in MMA either, but that doesn't stop you from knowing that it's valid and works
> 
> You know it works because you know how to throw a rock.  If you didn't know how to throw a rock then you may question the validity of it and doubt that it works.



Bad analogy is bad. I need to see evidence that the practice of Jow Ga would place me on par with other fighters who practice the more established MMA styles. If I’m spending 2 years studying Jow Ga instead of 2 years studying Muay Thai, I’ve wasted time and money and my training is behind where it should be. If you’re an up and comer, you’re probably not going to take that chance.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I think you're a little off here.  Sport has not kept MA from becoming obsolete, but it has kept it from dwindling and in the public eye.  Pre-sport / non-sport TMA is still relevant if trained properly.  Where I train we do not train for sport competition.  There is nothing obsolete in what we practice.
> 
> I'll agree "that martial sports tend to get better results than traditional martial arts" *IN A SPORTS ENVIRONMENT*.  In sport, one can only use legal moves as stipulated by the rules.  Non-sport MA has no such restrictions.  They are apples and oranges, but likewise share many similarities and effective techniques transferrable to each other's fighting environment.



Ok. So where is the evidence that non sport martial arts is better in a non sports environment. 

I mean not training at all has even less rules than training a TMA so therefore those guys have the upper hand in a no rules fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Not with the way the modern arts are evolving. In 20 years traditional MAs are going to be even more out of step than they are currently.


I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.

This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your

- arms to deal with your opponent's arms.
- leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

You don't need to drop your knee on the ground (lose your mobility). You also don't need to change levels (expose you head for punch or guillotine).

All you will need is to develop your skills for

- arm controlling, and
- leg cutting.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Buka said:


> Not to nit pick, but trying to escape what the other person is trying to do IS using it. In it's purest sense in my opinion.


No it's not.  You take BJJ.  I train BJJ with you.  I learn what moves you do and how you try to set them up. Once I'm familiar with that , they I can use a Jow Ga escape to deal with the BJJ.

Real world example.  BJJ likes to do good takes downs.  For the most part, many use a take down that positions themselves under the opponent' structure.  This uproots me. So now that I have had a chance to experience this and understand the strategy, I can start looking a Jow Ga to see if Jow Ga or Chin na has a defense for these type of attacks.  The end result was the low kung fu stance.  





This stance reduces the amount of room that a BJJ practitioner would have to go under me.  None of the "Best take downs for BBJ found here will work on me, because of the structure and height of my stance.  It has Zero to do with my fighting ability.  It is the structure of the stance.   In this position my waist and hip are low and behind my front leg.  My front leg can be protected by my hands.  Because of my height, you would need to reach downward at an angle which is a much longer distant than grabbing someone  straight head.  I can still punch with both hands from this position.  I can still kick from this position.  You can come at me legs first if you like.  This stance is still fairly mobile, more so than a BJJ person sliding around on their buts.  Being this low also makes me a heavier lift.





What helped me realize this solution is from the horse playing that I used to do with my friends who were on the wrestling team.  Then I took that theory and put it to the test and so far it's holding up.  No matter what you try to do.  You could never put me in this position so long as I'm in that stance.




This opportunity does not exist for you while I'm in that stance




This also doesn't exist.




This also doesn't exist because of the low stance.  Here you see that he's under his opponent.  Look at my stance.  You can come at me all you want, but your structure will never be like this.  Look at my stance and you'll see how low you actually have to get.





This doesn't exist either.  While you can go for my ankle, I would never be in a position where I'm leaning over you like this.  A quick shuffle back will take me out of your reach.  I can quickly raise my front leg up to avoid the grab and then stomp down on the hand that tried to grab my ankle.  





For things for a successful knee pick. 1. isn't going to happen while I'm in this position.




Now is there other stuff that can be done to take me down?  Of course, it's not a defense perfect stance. But this is the Kung Fu solution to a lot of BJJ and wrestlers in general, like to go for.  

Here's what helps me to understand martial arts.  I like to personally feel what is being done to me so I can have a better understand how it works and what's needed in order for it to work.. How is the person trying to shift me or position me.    It makes no sense for me play in the BJJ sandbox.  It's better for me to understand what is being done and to find a tool in my own sandbox.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.
> 
> This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your
> 
> ...



It is high risk.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I do believe this take down will be used in UFC within the next 20 years.
> 
> This is the most logic take down that has ever been developed on this planet. You use your
> 
> ...



Arm drag inside/outside trip? That move has been in MMA for decades bro.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Didn’t you get tossed out of you original JG school because you advocated sparring? So all the people at your old school aren’t sparring at all, and it’s probably a feature of Jow Ga schools to not spar.


Some Jow Ga schools spar. Yep  I got kick out because of that.  Found out later on that the other instructor was spreading lies about me.  As for the old school,  it doesn't exist anymore.

Guy in black is a Jow Ga practitioner





The guy with his shirt off is MMA





As you can see they have been at it for a while.  Same guy that teaches Jow Ga


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I need to see evidence that the practice of Jow Ga would place me on par with other fighters who practice the more established MMA styles.


Just because you see that other can do it doesn't mean you'll have the skills to do it.  You can train MMA for 10 years, but if your MMA training sucks, then you'll suck, regardless of who is good at it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Meanwhile arts in MMA gyms are sparring constantly, and constantly evolving. That has a dramatic effect between systems over time. Look at Aikido, Judo, and Bjj for example.


Some of these schools choose not to but that doesn't mean you have to do what they do.  If you own a Judo school and you want to do more sparring then do more sparring.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some Jow Ga schools spar. Yep  I got kick out because of that.  Found out later on that the other instructor was spreading lies about me.  As for the old school,  it doesn't exist anymore.
> 
> Guy in black is a Jow Ga practitioner
> 
> ...



Two guys playfighting in the basement is supposed to prove what exactly?


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just because you see that other can do it doesn't mean you'll have the skills to do it.  You can train MMA for 10 years, but if your MMA training sucks, then you'll suck, regardless of who is good at it.



Of course, but you don't handicap yourself by taking up a style that isn't going to give you the tools to be successful. Hence why MMA fighters learn Bjj instead of Ving Tsun Anti Grappling.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of these schools choose not to but that doesn't mean you have to do what they do.  If you own a Judo school and you want to do more sparring then do more sparring.



 Judo has always done sparring. They've done that since Kano founded the style. Sparring isn't the problem with Judo, and Judo is nowhere near the situation that Aikido is in.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Ving Tsun Anti Grappling.


What's the difference between training iron palm and iron shirt? 

If you train 

- iron palm, you will beat up your opponent. 
- iron shirt, your opponent will beat up on you.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Two guys playfighting in the basement is supposed to prove what exactly?


They don't play fight. They train.  I'm not proving anything.  I'm showing you that some Jow Ga schools spar.  If it doesn't rise to your expectation then that's not their problem.  They don't take your opinion into consideration anymore than you take their opinion when you train. Regardless of what you think qualifies as "play fighting"


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the difference between training iron palm and iron shirt?
> 
> If you train
> 
> ...



Ving Tsun anti grappling is utter nonsense that will get you strangled or dumped on your head by even a novice grappler.

That’s the difference.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Of course, but you don't handicap yourself by taking up a style that isn't going to give you the tools to be successful.


 Me choosing Jow Ga techniques don't handicap me as much as you think it does


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> They don't play fight. They train.  I'm not proving anything.  I'm showing you that some Jow Ga schools spar.  If it doesn't rise to your expectation then that's not their problem.  They don't take your opinion into consideration anymore than you take their opinion when you train. Regardless of what you think qualifies as "play fighting"



Training for what? I see no grappling in that video.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Judo has always done sparring. They've done that since Kano founded the style. Sparring isn't the problem with Judo, and Judo is nowhere near the situation that Aikido is in.


Then what's your complaint about Judo and sparring?


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Me choosing Jow Ga techniques don't handicap me as much as you think it does



You’re not an aspiring MMA fighter.



JowGaWolf said:


> Then what's your complaint about Judo and sparring?



Uh, nothing. The oddball in that comparison was Aikido.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Training for what? I see no grappling in that video.


OMG dude.  just because you don't see them do grappling in that one video doesn't mean they don' t do grappling.  You don't see them eat in the video so they probably don't eat either


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## Steve (Apr 25, 2021)

Someone once said to me, if you’re the biggest fish in the pond, you’re in the wrong pond.   If no one can take you down because you have a low stance, you’re not training with the right guys.  

regarding TMA in MMA, we see it all the time.  Two things always occur. 1, the TMA always looks a lot more like other striking or grappling arts than what we’ve ever seen in a TMA demo.  And 2, guys who train in that style of TMA will ignore the differences.  Because when you train for an application, function is more important than form.   It reminds me of a comedian who told a joke about all Italians who watch Rocky came out of the theater thinking they were boxers.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> OMG dude.  just because you don't see them do grappling in that one video doesn't mean they don' t do grappling.  You don't see them eat in the video so they probably don't eat either



You’ve posted multiple videos of these guys, and they haven’t done grappling in any of them. Again, what are they training for?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You’re not an aspiring MMA fighter.


Doesn't matter.   I train to use what I train.



Hanzou said:


> Uh, nothing. The oddball in that comparison was Aikido.


If a person owns an Aikido school wants to have an Aikido school that does a lot of sparring then they are free to do that.  If an Aikido practioner wants to spar then he or she can do that










Just because someone takes Aikido doesn't mean they can't spar and improve their skills


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You’ve posted multiple videos of these guys, and they haven’t done grappling in any of them. Again, what are they training for?


 Yep multiple videos that you could have easily gone to their youtube channel and see them grappling, but you fail to do so because you are so stuck on your limit view of what you think they do and don't do. 

Not my fault that YOU did not look beyond your own assumptions.  Soooo. yeah I didn't post them grappling.  If you want to see them grapple then go to their youtube channel.


----------



## Steve (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Doesn't matter.   I train to use what I train.
> 
> 
> If a person owns an Aikido school wants to have an Aikido school that does a lot of sparring then they are free to do that.  If an Aikido practioner wants to spar then he or she can do that
> ...


I think what you’re doing is cool, but just from what you’ve posted, it seems like you need to step up the actual resistance.  Doesn’t feel like you’re being pressured at all.  At least that’s the impression I get from your posts.  You’ve mentioned training with BJJ guys to test your jow ga... but it doesn’t seem like you’ve done that yet.  You seem like a good guy, friendly and not crazy.  I really think if you explained what you’re doing, you’d have plenty of other good guys interested in helping you.  Probably curious how their skills stack up, too.

wrestling, judo, mma, sambo... lots of people to meet.

to be clear, I like your approach, and applaud your stated intentions.  Just seems like you’re still playing it really safe, and not taking any huge risks by testing your skills against people who may very well challenge you.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Someone once said to me, if you’re the biggest fish in the pond, you’re in the wrong pond. If no one can take you down because you have a low stance, you’re not training with the right guys.


Read my post again look below.   It's not my fault that the  Wrestler and the BJJ guy didn't have an answer for my low stance.

So this guy isn't the right guy? Wrong pool?  I think he's more than qualified to take me down. You don't think so?





Again, stop making martial arts mystical.  Read my statement below.  You guys are so quick to thing that Kung Fu is useless that you don't even understand why they weren't able to take me down and that's even after I sat here and told you. Unless I missed it, I did see you say that my point were invalid?
Then you totally missed the statement that I said below.  TOTALLY MISSED.  Stop thinking that BJJ is the only Answer.   And stop thinking that I only train with people with no skill sets.  You aren't insulting me.  You are insulting them. 


JowGaWolf said:


> Now is there other stuff that can be done to take me down? Of course, it's not a defense perfect stance. But this is the Kung Fu solution to a lot of BJJ and wrestlers in general, like to go for.


----------



## Steve (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Read my post again look below.   It's not my fault that the  Wrestler and the BJJ guy didn't have an answer for my low stance.
> 
> So this guy isn't the right guy? Wrong pool?  I think he's more than qualified to take me down. You don't think so?
> 
> ...


what?

I don’t think BJJ is the only answer.  But I do think you play it safe.   I mean, if a strong, low stance is foolproof takedown defense against BJJ and wrestlers, you are sitting on a gold mine.  More likely you aren’t taking risks by training with people who are skilled enough to push you.

and clearly, you haven’t heard that if it works, it’s bjj.  Even if it wasn’t BJJ before.  It’s a living style that is exceedingly practical.  What works is BJJ, and what doesn’t is... I don’t know.  Ninjutsu?  

Edit.  Just to make sure I understand... did you train with that kid in the YouTube video?  Says his name is Sean billups.  If not, I’m very confused why you’re bringing him into it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think what you’re doing is cool, but just from what you’ve posted, it seems like you need to step up the actual resistance. Doesn’t feel like you’re being pressured at all.


Have you ever tried to do an actual kung fu technique?  Give it a try and let me know if you are being pressured enough as you try to pull it off without nailed. 

 I don't know BJJ so anyone who knows BJJ is going to be better than me at it.  I can't tell a BJJ person how to take me down when I'm in a low stance like that.  I know 2 things.  It keeps people from getting under me and it keeps my body from being in a position that puts me in more danger.  I also know I have yet to meet someone that had an answer right off the back. Most BJJ practitioners spar with people who take similar or taller stance.

To prove my point.  How many people have sparred against someone who takes a low stance like that when you are grappling?   If your Answer is NONE.  Then why would you think you would have an answer to something you never had to deal with before?  

How many of you have sparred with people who actually used long fist techniques along with hooks and sweeps?

How many of you have sparred with a Jow Ga practitioner who actually knows how to use Jow Ga and not generic kickboxing?

I'm sure BJJ has an answer for my low stance, but it's not something you'll know right off the back without thinking "What would I do if someone did a low stance like that?  You know what I didn't hear?  I didn't hear anyone offer any suggestion about how they might try to deal with something like that.  Instead. I get "I'm not sure I'm being pressured enough "  Even though I've broken my finger twice, got a black eye and injury my back numerous times sparring.

Not only that, I've even shown videos here of my failures.


----------



## Steve (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Have you ever tried to do an actual kung fu technique?  Give it a try and let me know if you are being pressured enough as you try to pull it off without nailed.
> 
> I don't know BJJ so anyone who knows BJJ is going to be better than me at it.  I can't tell a BJJ person how to take me down when I'm in a low stance like that.  I know 2 things.  It keeps people from getting under me and it keeps my body from being in a position that puts me in more danger.  I also know I have yet to meet someone that had an answer right off the back. Most BJJ practitioners spar with people who take similar or taller stance.
> 
> ...


So, then you didn’t train with the kid in the video, and This is theoretical. 
Fwiw, @Hanzou did mention arm drags, etc, and you blew him off.  

I bet jow ga can work if you put it through a pressure cooker with some specific application in mind.  But that will involve risk, because while you might find that it works, you may lean you just aren’t skilled enough to make it work yet, or you may learn that it won’t ever work at all.

try this.  If you think you’ve got a good stance, go hang out with some Greco Roman guys and see what they think.  
Edit.  Just to add, it’s not about whether you broke a finger or two.  It’s about your statements regarding your stance, and the anecdotes you choose to share.  You talk about challenging a teenager with no training, but show videos of highlights of high level  high school freestyle wrestlers.

to be clear, I don’t really care what you do.  But I like what you’re saying, I just don’t get the impression you’re swimming in the right pond.  Go find some guys like that kid in the YouTube video you shared, try your stuff out and I’m genuinely interested in how it goes.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 25, 2021)

The low and wide stance has advantage that your opponent is hard to reach to your back leg. 

I don't mind my opponent to reach to my leading leg. I don't want my opponent to reach to my back leg.


----------



## drop bear (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know BJJ so anyone who knows BJJ is going to be better than me at it. I can't tell a BJJ person how to take me down when I'm in a low stance like that. I know 2 things. It keeps people from getting under me and it keeps my body from being in a position that puts me in more danger. I also know I have yet to meet someone that had an answer right off the back. Most BJJ practitioners spar with people who take similar or taller stance.



BJJ guys take a high stance because they are lazy stand up.

Wrestlers will quite often take a lower stance.


And I still think a low single or an ankle pick would drop you. Especially as to how far forward you put that leg.






I get caught with variations of this a bit and there is even a sneaky wrap the front leg then take the double.

I can't see how if that front leg comes off the ground you are not falling straight over. Your feet are just too wide.





See where your hips are? You need both feet on the ground for you to be upright. They pull the foot towards them where your weight isn't. 





For a single leg defence to work your hips basically need to be up to take power away from that front leg.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> But I do think you play it safe. I mean, if a strong, low stance is foolproof takedown defense against BJJ and wrestlers, you are sitting on a gold mine. More likely you aren’t taking risks by training with people who are skilled enough to push you.


It's not a foolproof takedown defense.  I've already stated as much.   It's also not magic.  There are a lot of risks that go with it. For example, dealing with low kicks at that level.  Totally dangerous from numerous aspects.

In terms of playing it safe.  I really don't play it safe, because I acknowledge when I screw up.  I don't go into some "Oh if I was serious, I would have done A,B,C. " So in that sense if you pop me in the head when I'm trying to pull off a technique.  That's a serious mistake even if I'm working at a low intensity.  If you are able to hit me at a lower intensity then I don't have any doubt that you could have easily done the same technique with more power and strike the same target.  I"m honest about things like that.  That helps me understand the danger in.  If I was so dense that I needed to be KO to know when I screwed up badly then I wouldn't be much of a martial artist.  I wouldn't be much of anything due the brain damage I would have received.  My awareness is good enough that a good strike or a solid one that's not full power is more than enough to make me aware.  

In terms of receiving strikes.  I need a certain level of punching power attacking me because it helps with timing, body conditioning, and it creates that dislike for being hit.  Strikes and grappling attempts that are too light causes people to calibrate everything incorrectly.  If I'm standing in a low stance as a way to defend against your grappling attempts then take it as a sign that I take your grappling serious.  For me to do something like that is an acknowledgement that I think your grappling skills are of a concern.  If I take a high stance then what I'm telling you is that your grappling skills is of little concern and that any attempt you try, I can handle while in a high stance.  In other words I don't respect your grappling skills.

The people I've trained with the exception of maybe 3 or 4 are more than skilled enough to push me.  The instructor that I show sparring with may not have the best Jow Ga skills, but he does have the aggressiveness and a lack of control both in skill set and emotionally that forces me to really be alert.  One day he told me that he hits me so hard because he knows I can take it.  Just because I can take the punishment doesn't mean I want it.  What if I'm trying to do a new technique and he takes advantage of that and blasts me with a hard shot.  That's the worst kind of risk because that makes him unpredictable as a sparring partner. Which would explain some of the injuries that I've had because of him.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Apr 25, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The instructor that I show sparring with may not have the best Jow Ga skills, but he does have the aggressiveness and a lack of control both in skill set and emotionally that forces me to really be alert. One day he told me that he hits me so hard because he knows I can take it. Just because I can take the punishment doesn't mean I want it. What if I'm trying to do a new technique and he takes advantage of that and blasts me with a hard shot. That's the worst kind of risk because that makes him unpredictable as a sparring partner. Which would explain some of the injuries that I've had because of him.



And yet you train with him.  You are one motivated (if not too smart) student!     Ha Ha.  Though it does sound like he keeps you on your game.

Seriously, I was going to question your low stance as making you vulnerable to head kicks, stomps on your lead knee, strong sweeps...as well as it limiting your mobility.  Reading more carefully, it seems you employ it for the particular purpose of takedown/grappling defense, otherwise you are more upright?  I can understand that.  If you haven't seen your opponent fight before, which stance is your default stance?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> So, then you didn’t train with the kid in the video, and This is theoretical.


No I don't train with him.  No it's not theoretical. We don't do the same training.  He as a college scholarship for wrestling so I can't do anything that may mess that up for him.  When I gave him a try I told him I wouldn't strike him back and all he had to do was take me down.  I told him I had a theory about the low stance and for him to give a good effort. And he did within the limitations of the environment.  We weren't on a mat so there were a lot of wrestling entries that would have damaged his knees if he he tried and got it wrong.  He tried a couple of times anyway.  He went for my front let and I defended my front leg.   When he thought I would be static, I moved and there was nothing for him to grab.  He tried grabbing my hand and I was able to do some simple Chin Na escapes that prevented him to grabbing my arm.  From what I could tell from my end.  My low stance made his stance inefficient for what how he usually wrestles.  For example, he would never see someone stand like that in his wrestling competitions.  He's stronger than me. I'm heavier than he is. back thin I think it was by 25 pounds, but he could easily deal with 195 pounds.  He's strong enough for that. He has pushed defensive linemen heavier than me.

I don't like to debate "what I would do" in theory.   I rather focus on things that I actually could do.  For example,  me being able to stomp on someone's hand from that stance is not difficult.  Because the stance is low, the stomp comes down a lot harder and faster than it would if I was in a higher stance.  Give it a try and you will get the same result  So when I talk martial arts I don't want to talk about theories as much as I do about "What are my realistic options."



Steve said:


> try this. If you think you’ve got a good stance, go hang out with some Greco Roman guys and see what they think.


If I knew some Greco Roman wrestlers, I would.  Because I want to know where the limitations are and when the technique fails.  Knowing that a technique is successful is not the most important thing.  Knowing when it will fail is the most important thing.   Knowing when it will fail will keep you from doing the stupid things.  

Things about the low stance.
Change the angle that someone must take to grab your leg.  This will make it difficult especially if you have hands that will interfere. Someone comes in to grab the leg then move. Like Kung Fu Wang stated the distance of your stance is important.  If someone can get your rear leg then it's the same as grabbing the front leg.   





In the picture the guy on the left has the Worst Stance.  Someone who is good at taking your legs without shooting on them will make you pay dearly for standing like this.  If he moves his right leg then his left leg is still in danger.  If he moves his left leg then his right leg is still in danger.  From this position he has no rear leg. He can try to sprawl, but he won't sprawl if you sweep..

The BJJ guy on the left does a BJJ version of my low stance. If there was striking involved then his face would be in danger.  But we'll only look at the grappling aspect. To see the similarities 

both stances reduce the amount of space that someone has to get under you.  My stance does this.  If my stance is no good then that BJJ stance above is equally trash.
Hands are position so that you can protect your front leg (knee down). Because my stance is this low I can use my hand to defend my front leg.
Rear leg is far back in the safety zone.  If he steps back with his front leg, then his rear leg will still be safe, unlike the guy on the left.  My stance does this too. Even though he is close to my front leg he is still far away from my rear leg.  Even if he wants to shoot for that rear leg, it will be near impossible because the low stance means that the shoot will start lower than normal and as a result will hit the ground before he reaches the back leg.
If a person tries to over run the low stance then you automatically are under the person.  You have probably remember seeing this when I picked someone up
*Advantage for me *that the picture BJJ practitioner doesn't have is that the physics of the body means I can shuffle back to escape a front leg grab attempt
*Disadvantage for BJJ stance. * He cannot do the same but *he can step back* *or sprawl.*   I can also step back, but I cannot sprawl from this position.
*Advantage for BJJ stance.*  He can make that area under his body while maintaining a comfortable stance.
*Disadvantage for me*.  I cannot not make that area smaller without making my stance lower.  If my stance becomes too low then it will not be functional.  It also takes me more energy to maintain this stance which is why it is said "Your horse stance should be strong."  Don't believe me. Get into this stance and  you'll find out just how strong your legs aren't and you'll have a good idea of how strong the must be.
*Advantage for me*, I'm in a position that is safer to receive and give strikes. Or doing things like lifting my foot to stomp on someone's hands. 
*Disadvantage for BJJ *. His structure will not allow him life his front leg to stomp in a stable manner.  If I can kick his legs or hands, then I can kick is face.  That's a front kick party all day long.

1-4 is what makes the BJJ stance work.   My stance has 1- 4 which is why it works. It is a Kung Fu solution not a BJJ solution.  If my stance is no good then the BJJ stance is equally trash.  





These stances are equally trash as well  Even thought they meet the 4 key points..  Like I said before you guys make this stuff way to complicated


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And I still think a low single or an ankle pick would drop you. Especially as to how far forward you put that leg.
> 
> 
> 
> I get caught with variations of this a bit and there is even a sneaky wrap the front leg then take the double.


I know the black guy in the video very well. He would tell you the same thing I would tell you.  Use your hands to slow , obstruct the forward movement and at the same time move your leg back. You can do this a couple of way. if you can push the head down or side ways then you can prevent him  from getting that second leg. The thing that you don't see in this video is the guy on the left is not using his hands to stop the entry.    If you watch closely you can see his natural response being triggered as he almost places his hand  on the attacker. 

I also don't think my knee is in a good position for that second move where he collapses the knee my knee is facing the wrong direction. Again.  I'm not sure because no one to date has gotten that far. You have to keep in mind that my goal isn't to stand still and do the legendary "you can't move me kung fu stance."  My goal is to make it difficult to control for you to control my leg or attack my center with grappling.  



drop bear said:


> I can't see how if that front leg comes off the ground you are not falling straight over. Your feet are just too wide.


Because it doesn't come very high off the ground.  It's a very fast lift then stomp.  You have no other choice to make it quick,  If you stand up straight and lift your leg then you can keep you leg in the air as long as you want to.  If you are in this low stance then it's a very quick lift and a very quick return to the earth.  Unlike the BJJ stance that I compared this with, most of my weight isn't on that front leg. like the picture below.  If you stand like this, then you won't be able to pick up that front foot as I described and you will fall over. The structure of the stance caused by the torso leaning forward does not allow it.





I'm not sure but it maybe possible to shift into a cat stance to avoid the ankle pick. 


drop bear said:


> See where your hips are? You need both feet on the ground for you to be upright. They pull the foot towards them where your weight isn't.


shuffle back, step back. at the same time use your hands to interfere with the grab. I'm not even sure if it's possible to lift a person's leg up like that before because of the low angle he would be at. Which is probably not done in the wrestler video that you posted.  In that case it would be faster to use the head to break the stance.  I would have to see where that wrestler was before he had his leg jacked up like that.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Doesn't matter.   I train to use what I train.



Which wasn’t the point. The point is an aspiring MMA fighter isn’t going to take up something like Jow Ga until it proves to be beneficial to what they do in the ring.




> If a person owns an Aikido school wants to have an Aikido school that does a lot of sparring then they are free to do that.  If an Aikido practioner wants to spar then he or she can do that
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I never said they couldn’t. The problem is that their sparring is simply not structured like in Judo and Bjj, and that leads to the results you’re seeing in those videos; broken grappling entries with little fluidity and loads of missed opportunities, like back takes...


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> And yet you train with him. You are one motivated (if not too smart) student!  Ha Ha. Though it does sound like he keeps you on your game.


He was all that I had to work with.  My wife wasn't too happy about it.  One day she got mad at me and said "You are always letting him beat you up. You should do the same to him."  If my wife would tell you the story, it will start of how he treated me then it turn into her being mad at me for not hurting him like he hurt me.  I have once of those incidents on video where he did a groin kick on me after catching my leg.  He catches my leg, I screwed up, he knew I screwed up, there was a pause where he continues to hold my leg and then he kicks me in groin.

It took me down for about 15 minutes.  When we started to spar again, I had an aggression that I don't normally display and he could tell I was angry.  But that anger doesn't matter because I didn't stomp in the ground like I felt like doing.  I kept my control and my anger.



isshinryuronin said:


> Seriously, I was going to question your low stance as making you vulnerable to head kicks, stomps on your lead knee, strong sweeps...as well as it limiting your mobility. Reading more carefully, it seems you employ it for the particular purpose of takedown/grappling defense, otherwise you are more upright? I can understand that. If you haven't seen your opponent fight before, which stance is your default stance?


So the stance is good.  Knee stomps are more likely to hurt the person stomping on my knee.  I use this same stance to show prospective students and current students why it's best if you have a good stance.   I would get into this stance and tell them to stomp on my knee.  At first they stomp light because they think it's going to break, then they stomp harder and realize that it's pretty solid.   The angle of the knee is what makes it work.  My thigh isn't vertical enough for the stomps to target my leg. As long as my knee is bent at that angle, there's nothing to worry about. Keep in mind we kick with shoes on.

Side kick to the face, Round house to the face is a real risk.  Like I wouldn't do this in front of a Muay Thai fighter.  It's also not the default stance that I start with. People who look like they want to grab you don't have the same look as people who want to strike you. If I don't think my opponent's grappling is dangerous then I won't bother with it. People who are dangerous with grappling do not move the same way as people who are bad at it.  if I haven't fought some one before, I will stay at a good distance so I can observe the stance. People who want to grab stand different than those who want to punch and kick.  The best way I can describe it, is that the stance doesn't look committed to striking.  If you watch MMA matches, you can tell when they want to strike vs trying to lure people with strikes.  Watch their stance and not the punches.  Like when you see BJJ do the legs kicks.  Those kicks aren't as committed as someone who is trying to make you limp.  

Sweeps to the leg. That's possible if they know how to do sweeps.  Most people I've seen suck at them and don't like them.  The low stance is mobile, but not like the higher stance where you can really move around.  The low stance mobility is what I call Short Mobility.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No I don't train with him.  No it's not theoretical. We don't do the same training.  He as a college scholarship for wrestling so I can't do anything that may mess that up for him.  When I gave him a try I told him I wouldn't strike him back and all he had to do was take me down.  I told him I had a theory about the low stance and for him to give a good effort. And he did within the limitations of the environment.  We weren't on a mat so there were a lot of wrestling entries that would have damaged his knees if he he tried and got it wrong.  He tried a couple of times anyway.  He went for my front let and I defended my front leg.   When he thought I would be static, I moved and there was nothing for him to grab.  He tried grabbing my hand and I was able to do some simple Chin Na escapes that prevented him to grabbing my arm.  From what I could tell from my end.  My low stance made his stance inefficient for what how he usually wrestles.  For example, he would never see someone stand like that in his wrestling competitions.  He's stronger than me. I'm heavier than he is. back thin I think it was by 25 pounds, but he could easily deal with 195 pounds.  He's strong enough for that. He has pushed defensive linemen heavier than me.
> 
> I don't like to debate "what I would do" in theory.   I rather focus on things that I actually could do.  For example,  me being able to stomp on someone's hand from that stance is not difficult.  Because the stance is low, the stomp comes down a lot harder and faster than it would if I was in a higher stance.  Give it a try and you will get the same result  So when I talk martial arts I don't want to talk about theories as much as I do about "What are my realistic options."
> 
> ...



You should have your training partners test your stance against an arm drag to a back take, and see how that goes.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The point is an aspiring MMA fighter isn’t going to take up something like Jow Ga until it proves to be beneficial to what they do in the ring.


And I'm telling you if I was an inspiring MMA fighter then I would use Jow Ga because it has proven to me that it's beneficial to me.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> You should have your training partners test your stance against an arm drag to a back take, and see how that goes.


What makes you think I'm going to let them grab my arm without me trying to prevent them from grabbing my arm?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I never said they couldn’t. The problem is that their sparring is simply not structured like in Judo and Bjj, and that leads to the results you’re seeing in those videos; broken grappling entries with little fluidity and loads of missed opportunities, like back takes...


Are you talking about this video?


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And I'm telling you if I was an inspiring MMA fighter then I would use Jow Ga because it has proven to me that it's beneficial to me.



Which is a biased viewpoint because you’ve been doing it for years and have no desire to do MMA. We’re not talking about you, we’re talking about someone who seriously wants to perform well in MMA. Jow Ga would not give them the tools to do that.




JowGaWolf said:


> What makes you think I'm going to let them grab my arm without me trying to prevent them from grabbing my arm?



I never said you wouldn’t try to prevent it. I’m saying that stance is low and immobile, making it rather easy to take your back. There’s quite a few ways to get there, and an arm drag is just one of them.




JowGaWolf said:


> Are you talking about this video?



And the first one.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Which is a biased viewpoint because you’ve been doing it for years and have no desire to do MMA


It's not a bias point of view.  I've been doing it for years, it has many of the same techniques that you see in MMA, Long fist punches, jabs, hooks, upper cuts, sweeps, side kick, back kick., round house kick, low leg kicks, elbows.  Jow Ga is already a hybrid martial arts that combined three other martial arts, it has good footwork, it blocks low kicks using it legs,  it uses stance level changes, it has the oblique kick, parries, jams, wrist escapes, front kicks, some grappling, knees, throws, it uses strategies such as baits, lures, misdirection, distraction, front kicks, palm strikes and some other stuff that people aren't used to dealing with.

If anything I would train those same things at a higher level by using them against higher level skills.   So If I'm at a skill level 4 then I would increase and fight someone at a skill level 5 or 6, then increase one or two more levels once I master levels 5 and 6.  Keep that up until I reach the level that would qualify as professional level.  I would do a lot of conditioning so my body can withstand harder strikes. I would do a lot of foot work so that my footwork will be faster and stronger.  I would up my cardio and muscle endurance 10 fold.  I would fight against a lot of systems so I could know how my Jow Ga would apply techniques to the strategies and techniques of the system.

And what is it that you want me to do?  Dump all of that?  that makes no sense to drop functional stuff that I already know.



Hanzou said:


> I never said you wouldn’t try to prevent it. I’m saying that stance is low and immobile,


  Low stance isn't as static as you think.  There's mobility in it, it's "Short mobility" not "Long mobility" 
Short mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly.  *I'm not trying to get away.*
Long mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly.  I'm trying to get away.

*Example of short mobility = I'm not trying to get away*.





Why would someone throw an upper cut that low? Just a guess, someone may give you a pretty face to punch.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Are you talking about this video?





JowGaWolf said:


> It's not a bias point of view.  I've been doing it for years, it has many of the same techniques that you see in MMA, Long fist punches, jabs, hooks, upper cuts, sweeps, side kick, back kick., round house kick, low leg kicks, elbows.  Jow Ga is already a hybrid martial arts that combined three other martial arts, it has good footwork, it blocks low kicks using it legs,  it uses stance level changes, it has the oblique kick, parries, jams, wrist escapes, front kicks, some grappling, knees, throws, it uses strategies such as baits, lures, misdirection, distraction, front kicks, palm strikes and some other stuff that people aren't used to dealing with.



And yet it's not a basis for MMA striking on any conceivable level despite it's relative commonality. So either MMA fighters are completely ignorant to its effectiveness, or it simply isn't as effective as you believe it is. Again, we're talking about highly competitive martial artists who are betting their livelihoods on their training and coaching. If Jow Ga offered anything above other striking arts, it would be a mainstay in MMA gyms and training regimens. That simply isn't the case.



> If anything I would train those same things at a higher level by using them against higher level skills.   So If I'm at a skill level 4 then I would increase and fight someone at a skill level 5 or 6, then increase one or two more levels once I master levels 5 and 6.  Keep that up until I reach the level that would qualify as professional level.  I would do a lot of conditioning so my body can withstand harder strikes. I would do a lot of foot work so that my footwork will be faster and stronger.  I would up my cardio and muscle endurance 10 fold.  I would fight against a lot of systems so I could know how my Jow Ga would apply techniques to the strategies and techniques of the system.
> 
> And what is it that you want me to do?  Dump all of that?  that makes no sense to drop functional stuff that I already know.



This is assuming that your Jow Ga training prepares you for MMA at the same level as Muay Thai or Boxing would. I don't believe that's the case.



> Low stance isn't as static as you think.  There's mobility in it, it's "Short mobility" not "Long mobility"
> Short mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly.  *I'm not trying to get away.*
> Long mobility = move things out of the way and reposition quickly.  I'm trying to get away.



 That stance doesn't give you enough mobility to avoid a back take, or most high takedowns from the clinch. We should also take a moment to marvel at the fact that you believe that you can stuff the majority of takedowns with simply a wide stance.

*



			Example of short mobility = I'm not trying to get away
		
Click to expand...

*


> .



Well those are different stances than the one you were demonstrating. That said, the rules still apply;

Horse stance; Your weak areas are front and back.
Front stance: Your weak areas are side to side.

In either case, the point is that those wide stances hinder your mobility, and open you up for getting nailed from different angles, and if you think a good grappler can't hit those angles, you're delusional.

Like Steve says, you need to train with a better grappler.



> Why would someone throw an upper cut that low? Just a guess, someone may give you a pretty face to punch.



That's a grappling tournament where strikes aren't allowed.


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## dvcochran (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't think about it as being better or worse. Some of these techniques are  the same techniques that are used by some of today's tops sports competitors.  Are there mistakes in some of these?  of course. like the one drop bear says he doesn't like.  But it isn't a big deal, slip to the outside instead of the inside and you'll have a working technique.


Agree. It is not fair to lob shots at the techniques being used or technique execution. Let's not forget these are the guys who really had bullets and bomb being fired at them and knew that was their station. 
Pucker factor at a 10+. This completely changes the dynamic and mentality. 

It is something I see too many people talk about in their MA training. "I just want to workout for the exercise". On it's own this is a bad thing from all viewpoints.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And yet it's not a basis for MMA striking on any conceivable level despite it's relative commonality. So either MMA fighters are completely ignorant to its effectiveness, or it simply isn't as effective as you believe it is.


It's not the basis of BJJ. If you want to do BJJ then you take the BJJ Stance as it is more favorable to BJJ techniques.  If do kung fu then you want to take low stance as it's more suitable for kung.  How stand has a direct effect on what techniques will be available for you.  It is that simple.  Every system has a low stance to deal with grappling.  The stance is shaped accordingly to the type of techniques that will follow.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That stance doesn't give you enough mobility to avoid a back take, or most high takedowns from the clinch. We should also take a moment to marvel at the fact that you believe that you can stuff the majority of takedowns with simply a wide stance.


If your opponent wants to attack high then you raise your stance. If your opponent wants to attack low then you lower it.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If your opponent wants to attack high then you raise your stance. If your opponent wants to attack low then you lower it.



Yeah that's the thing, raising your stance won't necessarily stop a high takedown. Also a low stance won't necessarily stop a low takedown. There's too many factors at work to simplify it on that level.

I mean in all seriousness, do you ever wonder why MMA guys bother learning ground fighting if all they needed to do to stop a takedown is simply widening their stance or narrowing their stance?


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not the basis of BJJ. If you want to do BJJ then you take the BJJ Stance as it is more favorable to BJJ techniques.  If do kung fu then you want to take low stance as it's more suitable for kung.  How stand has a direct effect on what techniques will be available for you.  It is that simple.  Every system has a low stance to deal with grappling.  The stance is shaped accordingly to the type of techniques that will follow.



That isn't necessarily true. Bjj is intrinsically tied to MMA largely due to the fact that BJJ created modern MMA. Thus we have a symbiotic relationship where MMA will never allow BJJ to get too wrapped up in its own nonsense, and BJJ will never allow MMA to escape the importance of ground fighting. 

Ironically, sport BJJ is kept in check by MMA, and MMA is kept in check by sport BJJ. It's really a wild and interesting relationship.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah that's the thing, raising your stance won't necessarily stop a high takedown


The point of raising your stance is because you no longer need it if someone is doing a high take down.  Like I SAID BEFORE.  THE LOW STANCE THAT I USE IS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING UNDER YOU.  If you are trying to do a high take down, then why do I need to be that low?  If I'm still under you when I rise my stance then I'm in a good position to take your root from the bottom.  If I take your root from the boom then your high takedown will not work.  If I raise my stance, I will gain better "Long mobility" as well as "Short mobility" is no longer needed at that point.

Not sure why you are making it so difficult.



Hanzou said:


> I mean in all seriousness, do you ever wonder why MMA guys bother learning ground fighting if all they needed to do to stop a takedown is simply widening their stance or narrowing their stance?


  It's not about widening your stance, it's about lowering the stance.  The widening of the stance addresses a different issue.   A wider stance is about protecting at least one leg.  I don't know how many times @Kung Fu Wang has said this over the years.

If told you that I was going to cut your legs off and you had a choice of losing one leg or two legs, then what would you choose?  Both legs?

If someone has both of your legs then you have no mobility.  If you give only one leg the you can use the other leg to stand on and maybe quickly pull the lead leg out of trouble.

The fact that I have to sit here and explain this is nuts.  Instead of just trying to discount what I do. Give things some thought.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> That isn't necessarily true.


It is true.  Try to do BJJ from a Low Kung Fu stance and you'll see the difference right away.



Hanzou said:


> Bjj is intrinsically tied to MMA largely due to the fact that BJJ created modern MMA.


This shows your lack of understanding of martial arts and how things function with in a system.
Stances are directly tied to the techniques that are used in the system. 

Try to swing a sword, a staff, a heavy weapon from these stances.  It will not work, it will have almost zero effciency
Try to punch from from these stances.  You will find it difficult.  Try to do an upper cut or jab from these stances.  You will easy feel that these stancess are not the best position to do these things.  Try to do boxing from from these stances and you will discover the same thing.  What you will find out is that these stances work good for one type of thing while other stances work good for things.  This has nothing to do with MMA.  This is the basic reality of the stance and how it functions.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> The point of raising your stance is because you no longer need it if someone is doing a high take down.  Like I SAID BEFORE.  THE LOW STANCE THAT I USE IS TO MAKE IT DIFFICULT OR TO PREVENT SOMEONE FROM GETTING UNDER YOU.  If you are trying to do a high take down, then why do I need to be that low?  If I'm still under you when I rise my stance then I'm in a good position to take your root from the bottom.  If I take your root from the boom then your high takedown will not work.  If I raise my stance, I will gain better "Long mobility" as well as "Short mobility" is no longer needed at that point.
> 
> Not sure why you are making it so difficult.



I'm not making it difficult at all, I'm just marveling at the fact that we're having the 1994 argument of Kung Fu guys believing that they "can't be taken down because they do horse stances" again.



> It's not about widening your stance, it's about lowering the stance.  The widening of the stance addresses a different issue.   A wider stance is about protecting at least one leg.  I don't know how many times @Kung Fu Wang has said this over the years.
> 
> If told you that I was going to cut your legs off and you had a choice of losing one leg or two legs, then what would you choose?  Both legs?
> 
> ...



I'm not discounting what you do, I'm discounting your claims, because they're patently insane. Like @Steve said, if your claims were true, then you're sitting on a gold mine and you need to hop off the internet and start coaching some MMA guys.

Also that video doesn't back up what you're claiming. Those guys are elite wrestlers/ grapplers, not Kung Fu stylists, and yeah they have amazing takedown defenses. However, it's important to note that they still get taken down *a lot*. This video simply highlighted the points where their takedown defense was successful.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It is true.  Try to do BJJ from a Low Kung Fu stance and you'll see the difference right away.
> 
> This shows your lack of understanding of martial arts and how things function with in a system.
> Stances are directly tied to the techniques that are used in the system.
> ...



Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?

Again, what are you talking about?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Thus we have a symbiotic relationship where MMA will never allow BJJ to get too wrapped up in its own nonsense, and BJJ will never allow MMA to escape the importance of ground fighting.


And you say I'm the one that's biased lol.   



Hanzou said:


> Ironically, sport BJJ is kept in check by MMA, and MMA is kept in check by sport BJJ.


And I'm the one who doesn't train with BJJ folks?  A couple of BJJ guys that I know who do sports BJJ told me this.   "We do BJJ, but we don't deal with punches when we compete."





This is the same thing that every other martial arts system goes through.  Same thing I've been I've been saying for the longest.  "Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn to fight." 

Below is the same path that all martial arts take.  BJJ is no exception.  When people stop training to fight, then it becomes something else.  If they didn't say the words BJJ, you would think they were talking about kung fu or something.





In short.  Your idea of Sports BJJ keeps MMA in check is totally wrong.  Below is sports BJJ. Notice the score card. Notice there is no striking like there is in MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm not making it difficult at all, I'm just marveling at the fact that we're having the 1994 argument of Kung Fu guys believing that they "can't be taken down because they do horse stances" again.


Where in my quote below did I say "can't be taken down because they do horse stances."



JowGaWolf said:


> Now is there other stuff that can be done to take me down? Of course, it's not a defense perfect stance.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?
> 
> Again, what are you talking about?


I'm telling you your stances dictate what techniques you can do.  But you dont' seem to understand that.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, what are you even talking about here? My argument was that Kung Fu simply doesn't have the basis in MMA that would attract an aspiring fighting to take up its practice. You countered that by saying that BJJ was somehow in a similar boat as Kung fu in that regard, I pointed out how that is false due to how BJJ and MMA interact with each other on multiple levels, and now you're talking about how stances effect the martial arts?



I showed you a low BJJ stance and a Low Kung Fu stance and pointed out the similarities of how it protects the user. You are the only one on this thread having a MMA temper tantrum.  We get it, You can't talk about martial arts unless you use the term MMA.

And for the record.  I haven't heard anyone state that my analysis of the 4 areas of the BJJ stance and the Analysis of the Kung Fu Stance on the same areas were incorrect.  That includes you.

Instead you go straight to MMA and what MMA is and how BJJ does this and that.   And none of that talk has anything to do with why that low kung fu stance works.

I even gave you a detailed analysis including advantages and disadvantages of both based on their limitations, and how one allows you to follow up with BJJ techniques and the other allow you to follow up with kung fu techniques.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> And you say I'm the one that's biased lol.



Is there something specific in that statement you disagree with?




> And I'm the one who doesn't train with BJJ folks?  A couple of BJJ guys that I know who do sports BJJ told me this.   "We do BJJ, but we don't deal with punches when we compete."



Yet the core of Bjj is positional dominance, so while there is no striking in competition, the ability to dominate a position translates just fine into an MMA environment. It's relatively easy to adjust to striking situations in training.



> This is the same thing that every other martial arts system goes through.  Same thing I've been I've been saying for the longest.  "Not everyone takes a martial arts to learn to fight."
> 
> Below is the same path that all martial arts take.  BJJ is no exception.  When people stop training to fight, then it becomes something else.  If they didn't say the words BJJ, you would think they were talking about kung fu or something.



Again, the core of BJJ is positional dominance and getting out of inferior positions. That doesn't change whether you're doing sport or doing self defense BJJ. So while a sportive Bjjer will have to alter their game to adjust to the realities of striking, the transition isn't a huge one because they still have the "keys to the castle" so to speak. Like I said, this is where MMA's closeness with Bjj comes into play, because practitioners KNOW the difference between the two, and KNOW that they need to make an adjustment for a given situation. That realization stems from Bjj's history as art that started modern MMA.

Further, please note that several videos you posted are from folks with an agenda. As someone who comes largely from Relson Gracie's lineage of Bjj, I'm all too familiar with self defense BJJ folks looking to downplay sport BJJ folks.



> In short.  Your idea of Sports BJJ keeps MMA in check is totally wrong.  Below is sports BJJ. Notice the score card. Notice there is no striking like there is in MMA.



Notice that we have multiple elite Bjj sport competitors who have entered MMA over the last few years and done very well.


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## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm telling you your stances dictate what techniques you can do.  But you dont' seem to understand that.



And I'm telling you that that doesn't really quite work that way in grappling. In grappling it's your opponent's stance that determines what you can do. When your opponent changes stances as a reaction to what you're doing, that changes the techniques you can do once again. This isn't like Karate where if you're in a front stance with all your weight is on your front leg so you can't kick.

You can literally see this in the Gracie in Action tapes where the Gracies typically just stand there and wait until their opponent makes a move, and then they (typically) go for a takedown.



JowGaWolf said:


> I showed you a low BJJ stance and a Low Kung Fu stance and pointed out the similarities of how it protects the user. You are the only one on this thread having a MMA temper tantrum.  We get it, You can't talk about martial arts unless you use the term MMA.



That's in a grappling competition. Again, look at how the Gracies fought in the Gracie in action tapes. That's the purest example of grappler vs striker.




> Instead you go straight to MMA and what MMA is and how BJJ does this and that.   And none of that talk has anything to do with why that low kung fu stance works.



Yes, because the point of this discussion is MMA, not your personal kung fu exploits.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Yet the core of Bjj is positional dominance, so while there is no striking in competition, the ability to dominate a position translates just fine into an MMA environment. It's relatively easy to adjust to striking situations in training.


Don't tell me this.  1. I don't train BJJ and 2. I'm not the one who said those things about BJJ sport. Those are statements that come from BJJ practitioners.

For me I personally don't care what BJJ decides to do or doesn't decide to do with their Art.  That's up to them and those who train it.  Go tell them that.



Hanzou said:


> Further, please note that several videos you posted are from folks with an agenda. As someone who comes largely from Relson Gracie's lineage of Bjj, I'm all too familiar with self defense BJJ folks looking to downplay sport BJJ folks.


Dude I don't even care.  Now you sound just like that same story that goes on in any other Martial arts system.

"People from self-defense system, downplaying sport BJJ folk"  You must be on the Sport BJJ side of things since.  You seem to take such offense.

By the way EVERYONE HAS AN AGENDA.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And I'm telling you that that doesn't really quite work that way in grappling. In grappling it's your opponent's stance that determines what you can do.


You still don't understand.   Your opponents stance doesn't determine what you can do.  If you do BJJ then no matter how your opponent stands,  you will still do BJJ.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> And I'm telling you that that doesn't really quite work that way in grappling. In grappling it's your opponent's stance that determines what you can do. When your opponent changes stances as a reaction to what you're doing, that changes the techniques you can do once again. This isn't like Karate where if you're in a front stance with all your weight is on your front leg so you can't kick.
> 
> You can literally see this in the Gracie in Action tapes where the Gracies typically just stand there and wait until their opponent makes a move, and then they (typically) go for a takedown.


By the way. I'm done with you.   Not even worth trying to communicate with you anymore.


----------



## Hanzou (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Don't tell me this.  1. I don't train BJJ and 2. I'm not the one who said those things about BJJ sport. Those are statements that come from BJJ practitioners.
> 
> For me I personally don't care what BJJ decides to do or doesn't decide to do with their Art.  That's up to them and those who train it.  Go tell them that.



Tell them what?* I'm not disagreeing with them*. 



> Dude I don't even care.  Now you sound just like that same story that goes on in any other Martial arts system..



Except those other Martial Arts systems don't have exponents of their style in MMA doing pretty much pure versions of their style in the MMA environment. In other words, people can complain about sport BJJ all they want, but the results speak for themselves.


----------



## Buka (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No it's not.  You take BJJ.  I train BJJ with you.  I learn what moves you do and how you try to set them up. Once I'm familiar with that , they I can use a Jow Ga escape to deal with the BJJ.
> 
> Real world example.  BJJ likes to do good takes downs.  For the most part, many use a take down that positions themselves under the opponent' structure.  This uproots me. So now that I have had a chance to experience this and understand the strategy, I can start looking a Jow Ga to see if Jow Ga or Chin na has a defense for these type of attacks.  The end result was the low kung fu stance.
> 
> View attachment 23802



All I've ever wanted for Christmas was the other guy to have that low stance.

You can no doubt kick my ash with every other stance you have.....but not with that puppy. Nuh-uh.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 26, 2021)

Buka said:


> All I've ever wanted for Christmas was the other guy to have that low stance.
> 
> You can no doubt kick my ash with every other stance you have.....but not with that puppy. Nuh-uh.


 Just out of curiosity what is your answer for that stance.  If you and I were sparring and I thought you were trying to shoot for my legs.  What would you response be?  Just curious.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 26, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you and I were sparring and I thought you were trying to shoot for my legs.  What would you response be?  Just curious.


Stay low and put both hands in front of

- your knees (conservative approach), or
- your opponent's shoulders (aggressive approach).


----------



## BrendanF (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just out of curiosity what is your answer for that stance.  If you and I were sparring and I thought you were trying to shoot for my legs.  What would you response be?  Just curious.



I've been following along - just wondering what you mean by the above JGW?  My answer for that stance would not be singular.  If you and I were sparring, and you thought I was trying to shoot.. well, either you'd be right (in which case the shot would be underway and ongoing) or you'd be wrong, and either it wasn't a shot, or it was a feint at one.

I have to say I'm with Buka on this one - I'd be quite confident that I'd be more maneuverable than you from my higher, more natural stance.  I'd feint and move, and look to attack the lead leg and to close range, clinch and throw or trip you.  I think you limit your options by adopting it.  The grappler's advantage is that if you fail to land a decisive strike you're then significantly disadvantaged.  Ultimately if that stance 'worked', it would work in high stakes, lucrative mma fights.  It doesn't and never has.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I've been following along - just wondering what you mean by the above JGW? My answer for that stance would not be singular. If you and I were sparring, and you thought I was trying to shoot.. well, either you'd be right (in which case the shot would be underway and ongoing) or you'd be wrong, and either it wasn't a shot, or it was a feint at one.


Because it matters.  I've always been honest about my abilities here.  So depending on your reaction, I can give you an honest answer on what I would try to do, or at the very least give you an idea of the options I'm looking at (thinking of ) at certain points.  Your reaction will determine if I stay in a low stance or come out of it.

I can go to 2 or 3 level of thought before I get in the realm of  "It depends" or I don't know 

If you saw me standing in that stance.  How would you deal with it. Attack as normal? if so what type attack would you go for?  Or would you wait for me to attack?


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because it matters.  I've always been honest about my abilities here.  So depending on your reaction, I can give you an honest answer on what I would try to do, or at the very least give you an idea of the options I'm looking at (thinking of ) at certain points.  Your reaction will determine if I stay in a low stance or come out of it.
> 
> I can go to 2 or 3 level of thought before I get in the realm of  "It depends" or I don't know
> 
> If you saw me standing in that stance.  How would you deal with it. Attack as normal? if so what type attack would you go for?  Or would you wait for me to attack?


I'd kick you very hard in the knee cap with my steel toe capped boot, then be well out if range before you could do anything about it


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I have to say I'm with Buka on this one - I'd be quite confident that I'd be more maneuverable than you from my higher, more natural stance.


This is true.  you would be more maneuverable than me.  This stance is "Short mobility" so I'm in it with the understanding that you'll be more mobile.
How tall are you. The reason I ask is because that determines how low I need to go.

The height of my low stance is relative to the height of my opponent.  Depending on how tall you are, my stance may be low for you but not for me, and I may be able to have more mobility.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is true.  you would be more maneuverable than me.  This stance is "Short mobility" so I'm in it with the understanding that you'll be more mobile.
> How tall are you. The reason I ask is be that determines how low I need to go.


why does that matter if I'm kicking you in the knee cap?, I've had this discusion in class, drastically cutting your maneuverability,  whilst presenting an easy tarket, is a quick way to a permanent limp


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I'd feint and move, and look to attack the lead leg and to close range, clinch and throw or trip you.


Overall this is a good starting strategy. Especially with the kicks to the lead legs.  I don't know how much mobility I will have without knowing your height.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I think you limit your options by adopting it. The grappler's advantage is that if you fail to land a decisive strike you're then significantly disadvantaged.


When I'm in a low stance, like this, striking is the secondary option.  The primary option will be grappling.  If I was in a higher stance then the primary option is striking.  What I tell students is this Low stance is for grappling and High stance is for striking.  This is the general rule.  I can still strike from this position, but what I really want is for you to make a bad entry as you come in to clinch.  I want to force you to go lower than what is good for a single leg and to make any attempt to lift me difficult. 

If you kick that lead leg then I'll have to address those kicks.  There's a couple of ways that I may try, but it just depends on  what types of kicks you are using and how far you are away from me when you throw those kicks.  Your distance away from me is important because it will determine which options I'll have, same with my stance height.   My other only option would be to raise my stance into a more mobile stance stance in order to deal with the kicks.

Generally speaking At this point.  I have 2 options.  To try and deal with the kicks while in low stance or disengage and raise my stance.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Ultimately if that stance 'worked', it would work in high stakes, lucrative mma fights. It doesn't and never has.


 I don't know about you, but I don't fight in Lucritive MMA fights.  Most of my sparring is done on concrete surfaces, or services that have a think layer of carpet on top of concrete.  All of my real fights have been on concrete.

I can tell you one thing about this low stance and it's probably low stances in general.  It requires a decent foot grip, so if your feet aren't getting a good grip then this stance will be slower than it would be with a good grip.   The next time I have to do this on a mat without shoes, I'm going to wear cloth ankle brace and spray a sticky substance on the cloth to help improve my grip.  I forget the name of the spray but it's used in sports medicine to help ankle wraps stay in place.  Spray it on the skin, then wrap the joint.


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I'm in a low stance, like this, striking is the secondary option.  The primary option will be grappling.  If I was in a higher stance then the primary option is striking.  What I tell students is this Low stance is for grappling and High stance is for striking.  This is the general rule.  I can still strike from this position, but what I really want is for you to make a bad entry as you come in to clinch.  I want to force you to go lower than what is good for a single leg and to make any attempt to lift me difficult.
> 
> If you kick that lead leg then I'll have to address those kicks.  There's a couple of ways that I may try, but it just depends on  what types of kicks you are using and how far you are away from me when you throw those kicks.  Your distance away from me is important because it will determine which options I'll have, same with my stance height.   My other only option would be to raise my stance into a more mobile stance stance in order to deal with the kicks.
> 
> Generally speaking At this point.  I have 2 options.  To try and deal with the kicks while in low stance or disengage and raise my stance.


it's to late to " deal "with them when you already have a wrecked knee cap, not only are you current immobile you will still be immob9le when you stand up as your knee has gone


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> I'd kick you very hard in the knee cap with my steel toe capped boot, then be well out if range before you could do anything about it


  If I thought you had steel toe boots or shoes then I would be in a more mobile stance from the beginning.  Any boot or boot like shoe that I see, I automatically assume that it could be steel toe and therefore, I will take a different approach. 

I don't fight people in boots the same way I fight people in sneakers.  These are things that I take note of before or during.  For example,  every confrontation I've had except for 2.  I was able to have enough time during the confrontation to take note of what they were wearing.   I don't know about anyone else, but in the U.S. I'm always doing a visual check for guns and other possible weapons.  I take note of belt buckles, and the mobility of their pants.  This happens while the person is yelling and verbally assaulting me.


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I thought you had steel toe boots or shoes then I would be in a more mobile stance from the beginning.  Any boot or boot like shoe that I see, I automatically assume that it could be steel toe and therefore, I will take a different approach.
> 
> I don't fight people in boots the same way I fight people in sneakers.  These are things that I take note of before or during.  For example,  every confrontation I've had except for 2.  I was able to have enough time during the confrontation to take note of what they were wearing.   I don't know about anyone else, but in the U.S. I'm always doing a visual check for guns and other possible weapons.  I take note of belt buckles, and the mobility of their pants.  This happens while the person is yelling and verbally assaulting me.


it doesnt need to be a,steel top cap all iit needs to do is stop them wrecking their foot in the impact, any robust shoe will do even nnice shiny ones, getting kicked with ballet shoes or bare feet will likely hurt them as much as you, 7unless it's a ma kick with the ball of the foot or a stamp then you are still in a lot of  pain

knees are a vulnerable target to be protected, dont hang them out in the breeze, it's just inviting trouble,  for absolutely no gain

added to which you have now put your head in my target zone, that's not wise either


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I thought you had steel toe boots or shoes then I would be in a more mobile stance from the beginning.  Any boot or boot like shoe that I see, I automatically assume that it could be steel toe and therefore, I will take a different approach.
> 
> I don't fight people in boots the same way I fight people in sneakers.  These are things that I take note of before or during.  For example,  every confrontation I've had except for 2.  I was able to have enough time during the confrontation to take note of what they were wearing.   I don't know about anyone else, but in the U.S. I'm always doing a visual check for guns and other possible weapons.  I take note of belt buckles, and the mobility of their pants.  This happens while the person is yelling and verbally assaulting me.


So, then all a wrestler would need to do is wear steel toe shoes, and he's defeated your low stance!


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> So, then all a wrestler would need to do is wear steel toe shoes, and he's defeated your low stance!


Pretty much.  The low stance puts my lead leg in a vulnerable position.  It's not the best position to defend against kicks to my leg.  But if you are kicking my leg then that means you aren't trying to shoot in on,  it means you are trying to kick my leg, then I would come out of the low stance as it wouldn't be needed and get into another stance that will allow me to better deal with the kicks.

There seems to be an assumption that I'm just sitting around in one stance.  Switch stances as needed to deal with what is being thrown at me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Stay low and put both hands in front of
> 
> - your knees (conservative approach), or
> - your opponent's shoulders (aggressive approach).



I wouldn't suggest this stance,  not with someone who punches, kicks, and does elbows. This is face forward.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Pretty much.  The low stance puts my lead leg in a vulnerable position.  It's not the best position to defend against kicks to my leg.  But if you are kicking my leg then that means you aren't trying to shoot in on,  it means you are trying to kick my leg, then I would come out of the low stance as it wouldn't be needed and get into another stance that will allow me to better deal with the kicks.
> 
> There seems to be an assumption that I'm just sitting around in one stance.  Switch stances as needed to deal with what is being thrown at me.


so why cant they shoot your leg when you stand up? you've now been kicked in the knee and been taken down with out repy,your not the only one who can change strategy on the fly,you seriously need to rethink this

and you've not told us what you would do if they try to kick your head off, as you've conveniently positioned it for them


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't suggest this stance,  not with someone who punches, kicks, and does elbows. This is face forward.


iits a good stance,for a take down, it's the range that is wrong


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> so why cant they shoot your leg when you stand up?


I never said that they couldn't do that.  I specifically remember saying in this discussion that there were other things that could be done to take me down.


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I never said that they couldn't do that.  I specifically remember saying in this discussion that there were other things that could be done to take me down.


you said

that you go low to avoid them shooting your leg

then after they have wrecked your knee, you stand up
and then they shoot your leg and take you down.

which is what you tried to stop them doing in the first place,


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> you've not told us what you would do if they try to kick your head off, as you've conveniently positioned it for them


I already stated that this was one of the disadvantages of this stance which is why you only use it for grappling.  Damn nobody reads what post?


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## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I already stated that this was one of the disadvantages of this stance which is why you only use it for grappling.  Damn nobody reads what post?


and grapplers cant kick.?


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> then after they have wrecked your knee, you stand up


If someone is thinking about shooting for your legs then they aren't thinking about kicking it.   If they are kicking your legs then they aren't thinking about the shoot, which is why they are kicking.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> and grapplers cant kick.?


I never said they couldn't.  Show me where I said they couldn't kick


----------



## Steve (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Pretty much.  The low stance puts my lead leg in a vulnerable position.  It's not the best position to defend against kicks to my leg.  But if you are kicking my leg then that means you aren't trying to shoot in on,  it means you are trying to kick my leg, then I would come out of the low stance as it wouldn't be needed and get into another stance that will allow me to better deal with the kicks.
> 
> There seems to be an assumption that I'm just sitting around in one stance.  Switch stances as needed to deal with what is being thrown at me.


Being serious for a moment, I think you're starting to answer your own question.  How does someone uproot you from your low stance?  Answer: Do something to get you to raise your center of gravity or take advantage of your low center of gravity.


----------



## jobo (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If someone is thinking about shooting for your legs then they aren't thinking about kicking it.   If they are kicking your legs then they aren't thinking about the shoot, which is why they are kicking.


they can change strategy on the fly, stay like that and they will kick you to death, stand up and they take you down

they win either way round. personally I'd stand there till you get cramp

the best, perhaps the only reliable  method of stopping someone taking your legs is to hit them in the face with your knee , which needs timing and an uninjured knee


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Being serious for a moment, I think you're starting to answer your own question. How does someone uproot you from your low stance? Answer: Do something to get you to raise your center of gravity or take advantage of your low center of gravity.


I already knew the answer to this?  If I'm going to use a technique then I better know the limitations of what I'm using.  One of the keys to be successful with a technique is to know when to use it and went not to.  Knowing the limitations is also important because that's where your opponent will try to exploit it.     So that information I already knew.  I never had a question about that that stuff.

My curiosity was mainly if you other's here knew.  And if you notice no one is saying they would try to take me down by trying to go under me.  Which is the purpose of the stance, to cut that stuff out.  But just because I close one door doesn't mean that another one didn't open.

Sometimes people get stuck on.  One type attack.  I like those guys because they don't look at other options.  An example.  TKD kickers are always trying to kick. They often for get that they have have hands and often times miss out openings that their hands could have taken advantages.  In some cases, they are so focused on kicking that they sometimes forget that they can put up their guard using their arms.  And  how long did the conversation go on until someone said. that they would kick my lead leg?  That same type of tunnel  vision happens in fighting.  It is something that can be taken advantage of and used to your benefit.

When I had wrestlers and BJJ practitioners try to take me down while in that stance not one of them thought about kicking my leg because of that tunnel vision.  Is it my fault that they didn't think of it.  Did I offer it as something they could try? heck no.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

jobo said:


> they win either way round. personally I'd stand there till you get cramp


This is also an option.  Out of all of them this would be the one that I would take.  The longer I can make someone hold that low stance the more their legs will burn out.

Like I said very early in the beginning.  This is not a perfect defense.  I was open with that from the beginning.  Now with me.  I know that's a wrist, which is I don't get into that low stance unless I feel that I really need to. The burn out thing only works for people my same height or smaller.  Taller people are already at disadvantage because they are taller than me.  This means that my stance doesn't have to be as low as someone who is the same height.   This means I get better mobility and endurance and the same benefit for the same strategy.  This is why height matters.

Like I said before.  Don't make it complicated


----------



## Steve (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I already knew the answer to this?  If I'm going to use a technique then I better know the limitations of what I'm using.  One of the keys to be successful with a technique is to know when to use it and went not to.  Knowing the limitations is also important because that's where your opponent will try to exploit it.     So that information I already knew.  I never had a question about that that stuff.
> 
> My curiosity was mainly if you other's here knew.  And if you notice no one is saying they would try to take me down by trying to go under me.  Which is the purpose of the stance, to cut that stuff out.  But just because I close one door doesn't mean that another one didn't open.
> 
> ...


This is like a choose your own adventure story.  How does one high level wrestler catch another high level wrestler with a single or double leg takedown?  Once you've answered that question, you'll have your answer, too.  I just don't get how you think a strong, low stance is somehow revolutionary.   It's just common sense, so I think most people aren't saying it because it's a given.  You're acknowledging a kick to the lead leg as some kind of good point, but when others point out that your low stance makes you vulnerable to other things, you dismiss it with a casual, "Like I'm going to let you arm drag me or take my back." or a "I'll just raise my stance."  This is fiction.  It's make believe, and it's seldom as clean as you're making it out to be.

I'll try an analogy.  If a guy is defending an armbar, how do you submit him?  If you're stronger and/or more skilled, you could just impose your will. That's probably the simplest way. Just go grape ape on that arm and tear it off, or exploit a significant disparity in skill level.   Voila: Armbar in spite of the attempt to defend.

Option 2:  Just submit him with a technique other than an armbar.  Another simple solution.  You can catch a choke, wrist lock, kneebar, ankle lock.  If we're talking about a situation where strikes are allowed, the possibilities are endless.  Point is, if bad guy is defending X, easiest thing is don't do X... do Y instead.  In your thread, this could be leg kicks, punches to the face, arm drags, etc.  I bet there are thousands of possibilities that depend on what I'm good at vs what you're doing.

Option 3: If you really want that armbar, you encourage him to defend something else and hit the armbar when he's defending something else.  Threaten something else, and force him to move his arm.  Similarly, if you're in a low stance and I really want to hit a double leg but can't because you're practically sitting on the ground, it's just like what you said up above... get you to raise your stance and then hit a double leg.  We see this done all the time in an MMA match... threaten high with punches and kicks, and then attack the legs.  And the better your double leg vs the other guy's take down defense, the more likely you'll get it the first try, second try or maybe not at all. 

Getting back to the armbar analogy, it all starts with how good your armbar defense is and how good I am at hitting that armbar.  But it's also how strong you are, how strong I am, how athletic you are, how athletic I am, how skilled you are at things other than defending an armbar, how good I am at executing other things... and also all of the above points in reverse, where you are the aggressor and I am defending.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> This is like a choose your own adventure story. How does one high level wrestler catch another high level wrestler with a single or double leg takedown? Once you've answered that question, you'll have your answer, too. I just don't get how you think a strong, low stance is somehow revolutionary. It's just common sense, so I think most people aren't saying it because it's a given.


That's what I've been saying for the long.  Most people say, oh you can't use a low stance kung fu stance but when you go through it and see what's going on.  You would think that it's just common sense.   I'm not the one who thinks it's revolutionary.   I've never said it was special, unstoppable, or revolutionary.  I never portrayed it that way.  These were things that other people were assuming on their own.

Most people don't use a low kung fu stance.  If you don't take Kung Fu then the stance will probably be useless.   The low Kung Fu stance allows Kung Fu techniques to flow from that stance.   So if you have no Kung Fu techniques, the you don't use that stance.   Just like a low BJJ stance allows BJJ techniques to flow from that low stance.   If most people training BJJ then they will need to use the low BJJ stance and not the Low Kung Fu Stance.   The stance determines what techniques can flow from it.

BJJ and Greco Wrestling have similar stances and because of this a BJJ practitioner can use is BJJ stance to initiate some Greco Wrestling techniques.  Low Hung Gar stances do not work well with WC   but it works well with other kung fut systems.  It works well with Shuai Jiao



Steve said:


> You're acknowledging a kick to the lead leg as some kind of good point, but when others point out that your low stance makes you vulnerable to other things, you dismiss it with a casual,


I'm the one who pointed out the vulnerabilities before anyone else. Read Post #75, #77.  I laid it all out.  Here's post #75  This is me referring to the low stance.


JowGaWolf said:


> It's not a foolproof takedown defense. I've already stated as much. It's also not magic. There are a lot of risks that go with it. For example, dealing with low kicks at that level.


So how am I dismissing. No one pointed out to me that low kicks to this stance is an issue. I'm the one who said it before anyone else bought it up.



Steve said:


> "Like I'm going to let you arm drag me or take my back." or a "I'll just raise my stance." This is fiction. It's make believe, and it's seldom as clean as you're making it out to be.


Have you ever sparred with anyone who was good at using a low Kung Fu stance?   If not go give it a try and you'll see what issues you'll run into trying grab that front arm.  The one thing that I haven't gone into details are the types of attacks that can be done from this position and I intentionally did that for good reason.  I don't share all of my fighting strategies.  Just like I haven't seen anyone share theirs in this group.

There's nothing fictional about changing stances to fit the situations.  Kung Fu has more stance variety and level Changes than another system that I know of. Fighters change stance level all the time and switch through various types of stances, as well as hold some stances.



Steve said:


> Option 2: Just submit him with a technique other than an armbar. Another simple solution. You can catch a choke, wrist lock, kneebar, ankle lock. If we're talking about a situation where strikes are allowed, the possibilities are endless.


The possibilities are endless but not the probability.  Which is why I don't factor more than 2 or 3 steps beyond what I may be able to do.  Anything beyond that becomes a data overload and you won't get anything good from it other than confused.



Steve said:


> Getting back to the armbar analogy, it all starts with how good your armbar defense is and how good I am at hitting that armbar. But it's also how strong you are, how strong I am, how athletic you are, how athletic I am, how skilled you are at things other than defending an armbar, how good I am at executing other things... and also all of the above points in reverse, where you are the aggressor and I am defending.


 Yes you are right but not all of these things are key to what you need to do or try to complish.  For example, Strength, how athletic a person is, will have very little effect on how someone will sweep you.  This is because of the nature of the sweeps, how they are used and when they are used.  So there's no need to consider those points.  Only consider what matters.

In the case of someone grabbing my arm while in the low stance, I'm can only assume the person thinks it will very easy.  just reach out and grab the arm.  If that is the case then there are other things that person may not be taking into consideration.   I have video of someone testing that just to see what how I would respond.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I thought you had steel toe boots or shoes then I would be in a more mobile stance from the beginning.  Any boot or boot like shoe that I see, I automatically assume that it could be steel toe and therefore, I will take a different approach.
> 
> I don't fight people in boots the same way I fight people in sneakers.  These are things that I take note of before or during.  For example,  every confrontation I've had except for 2.  I was able to have enough time during the confrontation to take note of what they were wearing.   I don't know about anyone else, but in the U.S. I'm always doing a visual check for guns and other possible weapons.  I take note of belt buckles, and the mobility of their pants.  This happens while the person is yelling and verbally assaulting me.



On that note from messing around with calf kicks. That low solid stance makes it very easy to attack. Their defence is to create a more mobile front foot thai stance. But then it let's you attack something else.

So you don't need boots to attack the lower leg. If they are kind enough to stick it out there for you.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

drop bear said:


> On that note from messing around with calf kicks. That low solid stance makes it very easy to attack. Their defence is to create a more mobile front foot thai stance. But then it let's you attack something else.
> 
> So you don't need boots to attack the lower leg. If they are kind enough to stick it out there for you.


You get it.

There's a "defense" to the low kick to the leg when in a low stance. but I can't say that's it's better than getting kicked in the leg in the first place.   More like trading wounds.  So far I have not discovered one that will allow me to stay in that low stance and weather the low kicks.  I've tried a lot of things and all I found were things that didn't work and things that made things worse.  I don't know if there's anything that can be done other then get out of that stance once your opponent gets that striking going.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Just out of curiosity what is your answer for that stance.  If you and I were sparring and I thought you were trying to shoot for my legs.  What would you response be?  Just curious.



Actually, I knee jerked my response. I'm sure you can change levels quite quickly. You would certainly have the leg strength to do so. But I wasn't speaking as a grappler but as a striker, which I am first and foremost.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Buka said:


> Actually, I knee jerked my response. I'm sure you can change levels quite quickly. You would certainly have the leg strength to do so. But I wasn't speaking as a grappler but as a striker, which I am first and foremost.


I wouldn't want to be caught in that position to long against striking.  High kicks are difficult to do.  Lower kicks are easier and I rather not have my head in that easy zone.  The real challenge for the most part is just reading the opponent and have a good feel and visual for when they are committed to striking and when they are committed to grappling.  The commitment isn't too difficult to read, but the risk is more of  "Did I read the commitment in time."

It's like getting a text message saying that the bus leaves at 2pm but you don't read it until 2:01pm.  I read the message correctly , but  that one minute late notice may mean that I'm late.  So If I read a strike coming but I'm .5 seconds late reading it. Then I in a situation where I can't get out of the way in time.  A lot of times I get it right, but sometimes (which is more than enough)  I don't read the shift to strike soon enough.

unfortunately the only way to fix that is to continue to get kicked and figure it out, or to determine I'm not going to be able to physically, visual meet the time requirement.  Physically = being able to move faster to compensate for the slow read.


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## Buka (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't want to be caught in that position to long against striking.  High kicks are difficult to do.  Lower kicks are easier and I rather not have my head in that easy zone.  The real challenge for the most part is just reading the opponent and have a good feel and visual for when they are committed to striking and when they are committed to grappling.  The commitment isn't too difficult to read, but the risk is more of  "Did I read the commitment in time."
> 
> It's like getting a text message saying that the bus leaves at 2pm but you don't read it until 2:01pm.  I read the message correctly , but  that one minute late notice may mean that I'm late.  So If I read a strike coming but I'm .5 seconds late reading it. Then I in a situation where I can't get out of the way in time.  A lot of times I get it right, but sometimes (which is more than enough)  I don't read the shift to strike soon enough.
> 
> unfortunately the only way to fix that is to continue to get kicked and figure it out, or to determine I'm not going to be able to physically, visual meet the time requirement.  Physically = being able to move faster to compensate for the slow read.



"It's like getting a text message saying that the bus leaves at 2pm but you don't read it until 2:01pm."

I really liked that. And, dude, I missed that bus more than a few times in my competitive career. Heck, a couple times it damn near ran me over.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> High kicks are difficult to do.


I still remember many times after I had spared with my Karate/TKD guys, they no longer wanted to spar with me because my stance was too low. In the whole sparring, they didn't have chance to throw any head level high kick. For some unknown reason, they didn't want to throw low kick or middle level kick.

For some people, if a kick is not high, it's a bad kick.


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## Martial D (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wouldn't want to be caught in that position to long against striking.  High kicks are difficult to do.  Lower kicks are easier and I rather not have my head in that easy zone.  The real challenge for the most part is just reading the opponent and have a good feel and visual for when they are committed to striking and when they are committed to grappling.  The commitment isn't too difficult to read, but the risk is more of  "Did I read the commitment in time."
> 
> It's like getting a text message saying that the bus leaves at 2pm but you don't read it until 2:01pm.  I read the message correctly , but  that one minute late notice may mean that I'm late.  So If I read a strike coming but I'm .5 seconds late reading it. Then I in a situation where I can't get out of the way in time.  A lot of times I get it right, but sometimes (which is more than enough)  I don't read the shift to strike soon enough.
> 
> unfortunately the only way to fix that is to continue to get kicked and figure it out, or to determine I'm not going to be able to physically, visual meet the time requirement.  Physically = being able to move faster to compensate for the slow read.


Let me preface this by stating I do like the fact you think testing your skills against an actual human is worthwhile. Many if not most traditional stylists do not.

But it is clear you are drinking your own Kool aid. I challenge you to walk into an MMA club or a Thai boxing academy, challenge them to spar with you and film it. If you can successfully do ANYTHING that looks like jow ga under these conditions, I will be utterly shocked. If you are sincere, you will consider this.

I was you..at one point. Our Kung Fu school did light sparring too, and I did exactly what I'm suggesting you do. The results were hard to swallow at first, but worthwhile..see my signature.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I still remember many times after I had spared with my Karate/TKD guys, they no longer wanted to spar with me because my stance was too low. In the whole sparring, they didn't have chance to throw any head level high kick. For some unknown reason, they didn't want to throw low kick or middle level kick.
> 
> For some people, if a kick is not high, it's a bad kick.


That's the tunnel vision that I was talking about.  You took away the one thing they really wanted to do to you.  That was the kick that they were tell legends about.  They are so focus on that one thing that they forget there is other stuff.  It's good for you that they could only see doing  high kicks.

You beat them more than you thought.  You took away the legendary tale of how they kicked a kung fu guy in the head. lol.  

The more you deny your opponent what they want.  The more they forget about the other things.  I use that all the time.


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## BrendanF (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because it matters.  I've always been honest about my abilities here.  So depending on your reaction, I can give you an honest answer on what I would try to do, or at the very least give you an idea of the options I'm looking at (thinking of ) at certain points.  Your reaction will determine if I stay in a low stance or come out of it.
> 
> I can go to 2 or 3 level of thought before I get in the realm of  "It depends" or I don't know
> 
> If you saw me standing in that stance.  How would you deal with it. Attack as normal? if so what type attack would you go for?  Or would you wait for me to attack?



Yeah that was what caused my confusion; you asked how I would react to you _thinking _I was shooting for your legs.  Hence my explanation - I don't read minds, so I wouldn't react to you thinking anything.

The reality is that stance is so low as to limit mobility.  You claimed the offset advantage is 'preventing someone getting under my center of gravity' and that it's primarily a grappling stance.

There is a reason no grappling arts adopt that stance.  It is immobile, lateral and therefore exposes one side of your body.

Your response of 'I can move into an upright stance too' etc ignores that lack of motility - you _can't _move into a more upright stance faster than I can strike or feint from a more natural one.  You can't move into anything from that stance, as fast as someone who is not in that stance.  And in grappling terms there are just obvious weaknesses to exploit, that don't necessarily involve 'getting under your center of gravity'.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If someone is thinking about shooting for your legs then they aren't thinking about kicking it.   If they are kicking your legs then they aren't thinking about the shoot, which is why they are kicking.



A dirty trick I do is kick the leg and then shoot when the guy checks.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

Martial D said:


> If you can successfully do ANYTHING that looks like jow ga under these conditions, I will be utterly shocked.


No you won't, won't be shocked.  You will just say that we really weren't sparring or that the Muay Thai fighter was going easy on me.  This patter has already shown itself. There's be no reason why you would change.



Martial D said:


> challenge them to spar with you and film


I don't have to challenge them.  I just have to ask them.  A challenge fight is something thing different, there's nothing respectful or good about a challenge fight and I wouldn't go to a gym with that attitude just so you can see me do Jow Ga Kung Fu.  That's not only disrespectful for you, but it shows my weakness because I did it because someone wanted me to.  I got more respect for myself and others to do something like that.   The next time I visit my brother, I'll go to his gym and I'll ask the head Coach is it ok if I could train with them that day and do some sparring with some of there guys.  Doing it this way keeps me on their good side and will most likely provide more opportunities to spar against a Muay Thai gym. 

Even if I do that it doesn't mean that I'll get a chance to film them. I have to ask for permission to do so and give them my word that I won't show the film as if I'm trying to put the school in a bad light.  Not sure if you have being paying attention but I always speak highly of the Sanda School that I sparred with.  I also asked for permission to film my sparring sessions with their school.  If they say no filming then I have to respect that.  I get to do Jow Ga and you don't get to see it.  Even if I do film it, It doesn't mean that I will show you. There are some people here that I don't mind showing , but that's only because of the respect that we show each other.  So that's the "Kool Aid that I drink."  



Martial D said:


> If you are sincere, you will consider this.


What am 6 years old.  You determine what makes me sincere?   I will continue to spar against other systems as I originally planned and have done in the past.  I will do this regardless of what you believe or don't believe in about my abilities.  The videos I shared I didn't have, and I didn't go sparring at a Sanda school to prove something to someone else.  



Martial D said:


> I was you..at one point. Our Kung Fu school did light sparring too, and I did exactly what I'm suggesting you do.


 I don't think so. I don't think you were like me at one point.  I'm pretty sure I haven't seen you spar before.  I'm pretty sure you don't do Jow Ga Kung Fu. I'm pretty sure you didn't spar against a Sanda School which inspired you to train harder in your system.  Because you saw how your training was lacking. I'm pretty sure that's my life.  The lessons I learned from the Sanda School about my faulty training weren't "hard to swallow"  I spar to learn so anything that I experience that will help to make me better in my own system is a good thing that I cherish.  I take that lesson and correct my training and then I train harder.



Martial D said:


> Our Kung Fu school did light sparring too,


In my kung fu school (before I was an instructor) we always went at it hard.  Even when the Sifu told us to lighten up we would go at it.  The result was often more injuries and less sparring, the the less we could attempt new applications because making a mistake when sparring hard is costly.  During that time I broke my finger 3 times, hyper extended my elbow at least 4 times.(during sparring from techniques being used on me), then would spar on the injury 3 weeks later.  It took a year for it to complete heal because it was always getting re-injured. 

Being injured all the time sucks.  It's wasn't until I became an instructor that I did what my Sifu was telling us to do all along. It wasn't until I stopped worrying about how hard I can hit, or how much damage I could take, that I became better at kung fu. 



BrendanF said:


> Your response of 'I can move into an upright stance too' etc ignores that lack of motility - you _can't _move into a more upright stance faster than I can strike or feint from a more natural one.


  Yeah you keep think thinking that.  You may not be able to move between stances fast, but in Jow Ga schools, a class doesn't go by that we don't train how to move between stances quickly.  That's kind of the key to everything. 

0:36 - 0:39  1 knee and 3 stance changes with multiple strikes and he slowed down at the end. I used the stop watch on my computer and it took him  about 2.21 seconds.





Tons of stance levels and changes.





Again Various Stance changes from low positions.  We do a lot of training that involves stance transitions from high to low and  low to high.  B  All of that jumping up and down is from our Shaolin roots.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> The reality is that stance is so low as to limit mobility. You claimed the offset advantage is 'preventing someone getting under my center of gravity' and that it's primarily a grappling stance.


I've already explained all of this go back and read previous posts.



BrendanF said:


> There is a reason no grappling arts adopt that stance. It is immobile, lateral and therefore exposes one side of your body.


 Most grappling arts do not have striking in them so they are going to adopt stances that aren't done when someone kicks or punches.  Most grappling arts don't use weapons like staff, sword, and spear. 

I've said this a million times it seems YOUR STANCE DICTATES THE TECHNIQUES THAT WILL FLOW FROM IT.  Staff, Spear, Sword techniques will not flow from these stances.  







Boxing technique will not flow from this but boxing has grappling
Muay That Techniques will not flow from this but Muay Thai has grappling.
Karate will not flow from stances like this but Karate has grappling
Wing Chun will not flow from stances like this but Wing Chun has grappling
Jow Ga will not flow from stances like this but Jow Ga has grappling.  Both open hands and weapons, in case someone tries to take your staff and beat you with your own weapon


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

drop bear said:


> A dirty trick I do is kick the leg and then shoot when the guy checks.


I like that.  I do something similar with a foot hook. I haven't tried it off a leg check before.  I would like to see how that looks.

This is a good example of.  "If they are doing a leg check, then they aren't thinking about the shoot."  all of that focus is on that leg check, they won't think shoot until it's too late.  Have you ever done it so many times that they were hesitant about checking the kick because they are thinking about the shoot? lol


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> ou can't move into anything from that stance, as fast as someone who is not in that stance.


The low kung fu stance is "Short mobility" not "Long mobility"  Just because it can't move 3 feet quickly doesn't mean that it can't move from one stance to another or to move the leg quickly with the same area.  This stance isn't used to "get away from stuff"


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## Martial D (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> No you won't, won't be shocked.  You will just say that we really weren't sparring or that the Muay Thai fighter was going easy on me.  This patter has already shown itself. There's be no reason why you would change.
> 
> I don't have to challenge them.  I just have to ask them.  A challenge fight is something thing different, there's nothing respectful or good about a challenge fight and I wouldn't go to a gym with that attitude just so you can see me do Jow Ga Kung Fu.  That's not only disrespectful for you, but it shows my weakness because I did it because someone wanted me to.  I got more respect for myself and others to do something like that.   The next time I visit my brother, I'll go to his gym and I'll ask the head Coach is it ok if I could train with them that day and do some sparring with some of there guys.  Doing it this way keeps me on their good side and will most likely provide more opportunities to spar against a Muay Thai gym.
> 
> ...


You often refer to your sparring videos while talking yourself up. I'm just saying if it was real sparring against an opponent that's actually trying to hit you or take you down it would lend your claims of really trying to make your jow ga into a legit system some weight.

I spar/have sparred against many legit guys. I'm not going to say I'm some amazing fighter but I've done it enough to tell the difference between two guys trying to get at eachother and two guys that aren't, anyway.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

If a kung fu school has a lion dance team just ac


Martial D said:


> You often refer to your sparring videos while talking yourself up.


I often refer to my sparring video because it's stuff that I can show that I can do.  It makes me no sense for me say.  "hey guys, I can do Jow Ga techniques and I can do this technique here and I land it most of the times that I use it."





How many times do you see TMA talk about what is possible, what they can do, and never show proof or examples. of it.  If there were other Jow Ga sparring videos that show Jow Ga sparring, specifically about the techniques I talk about, then feel free to share them.  Let me know how that search goes.  As a matter of fact.  Look up Jow Ga sparring on youtube and let me know what you find.




Martial D said:


> I'm just saying if it was real sparring against an opponent that's actually trying to hit you or take you down it would lend your claims of really trying to make your jow ga into a legit system some weight.


You have seen me spar with people who were trying to hit me, and kick me.  
I have grappled with people who were really trying to take me down.  It's just that you weren't there and I don't record every single thing I do in Jow Ga.  Like the staff training I've been doing lately.  I haven't recorded any of it. That time when I was training at the Sanda School to be in competitive fighting using Jow GA. I didn't record that, but it happened.  That day when the Sanda Coach kicked me in the stomach when he was explaining long fist techniques.  That happened too. It's not on video.  Just because you don't see it doesn't mean that it happened.

As far as making Jow Ga into a legit system.  It's already legit.  The issue isn't about the system,  the issue is about me and my ability to use the skills in the system.  I don't need to make Jow Ga into anything.  Not sure why people think they need to "Make the system legit."  Spend quality time training the techniques of a system and learning how to correctly apply them.  Jow Ga isn't a problem that needs to be fix.  I'm a practitioner that trains in Jow Ga with the goal to be functional with Jow Ga. 



Martial D said:


> but I've done it enough to tell the difference between two guys trying to get at each other and two guys that aren't, anyway.


 What you want to see is a fight and you aren't going to see that from me.  Not unless someone attacks me in the street and a bystander records it.


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## drop bear (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like that.  I do something similar with a foot hook. I haven't tried it off a leg check before.  I would like to see how that looks.
> 
> This is a good example of.  "If they are doing a leg check, then they aren't thinking about the shoot."  all of that focus is on that leg check, they won't think shoot until it's too late.  Have you ever done it so many times that they were hesitant about checking the kick because they are thinking about the shoot? lol



I hit a single leg which is easier to do if their foot is already off the ground.


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## BrendanF (Apr 27, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah you keep think thinking that.  You may not be able to move between stances fast, but in Jow Ga schools, a class doesn't go by that we don't train how to move between stances quickly.  That's kind of the key to everything.
> 
> 0:36 - 0:39  1 knee and 3 stance changes with multiple strikes and he slowed down at the end. I used the stop watch on my computer and it took him  about 2.21 seconds.
> 
> ...



Yeah I will keep thinking that - all evidence supports my view.

I'm familiar with the training methods.  I studied CLF for a time.



JowGaWolf said:


> Most grappling arts do not have striking in them so they are going to adopt stances that aren't done when someone kicks or punches.  Most grappling arts don't use weapons like staff, sword, and spear.
> 
> I've said this a million times it seems YOUR STANCE DICTATES THE TECHNIQUES THAT WILL FLOW FROM IT.  Staff, Spear, Sword techniques will not flow from these stances.
> 
> ...



Yes, I understand that.

The difficulty you have with that stance is; it's garbage for grappling for the reasons I mentioned..

and it's garbage for striking for the reasons I mentioned.

If your opponent is able to move easier than you, faster than you, in more directions than you, and your stance is already compromised by being unstable - you are at a significant disadvantage.  As I said, that's why it is a stance we don't see in real fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 27, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> Yeah I will keep thinking that - all evidence supports my view.
> 
> I'm familiar with the training methods.  I studied CLF for a time.
> 
> ...


If you do not train to move fast in low stance then you won't be able to move fast in low stance.  So the question you have answer is.  Do you train to move fast while in low stance?


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## BrendanF (Apr 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you do not train to move fast in low stance then you won't be able to move fast in low stance.  So the question you have answer is.  Do you train to move fast while in low stance?



You're not getting it.  You can't move _as_ fast in that low stance as you can in a more natural one.  In the same way no amount of training will get you out of the blocks faster against a sprinter if you take any stance other than that of a sprinter on the blocks.  This is not my opinion, it is just basic biophysics.  No amount of training can overcome such a significant disadvantage.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 28, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> You can't move _as_ fast in that low stance as you can in a more natural one.


 You aren't supposed to move all over the place with this stance. That's not not the purpose of this stance.  Different stances have different functions and are used based on need.



BrendanF said:


> In the same way no amount of training will get you out of the blocks faster against a sprinter if you take any stance other than that of a sprinter on the blocks.


"Short mobility" = juke   (used to break ankles) quick moves covering small area (no sprinter movement used)
"Log mobility" = higher stance.  (You do not use short mobility to get to the hoop) quick moves covering larger area





Short mobility  -> low stance (not sprinter stance) used against a higher stance. Used for quick short movements.  If you do not train to move quickly in this stance then you will not be able to move quickly in it.


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## Hanzou (Apr 28, 2021)

Yup, we're back to a "my Kung Fu doesn't allow me to get taken down" argument. It's 1994 all over again!


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## Martial D (Apr 28, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> If a kung fu school has a lion dance team just ac
> 
> I often refer to my sparring video because it's stuff that I can show that I can do.  It makes me no sense for me say.  "hey guys, I can do Jow Ga techniques and I can do this technique here and I land it most of the times that I use it."
> 
> ...


Just saying. You make a lot of claims about what you can do with jow ga. Many people here have pointed out weaknesses in it, such as your low stance(it's super easy to take down someone that stands like that, you have no base or mobility) yet you seem to have some rose colored beliefs. I don't think you really want to put them to the test at all.


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