# Canada and US comparison



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

[font=arial,helvetica]*From SlashDot
Your Rights Online: U.S. to Require Passport To Re-Enter Country*[/font] 	      	


*Posted by Zonk on Tuesday April 05, @08:27AM*
*from the friendly-greeting dept.*
The Hobo writes _"The CBC is reporting that starting in 2007, most Canadians will require a passport to cross into the United States and by 2008 Americans who crossed freely into Canada will be unable to return to the United States without a passport. The tougher new rules still allow Canadians to cross without being fingerprinted, but every person from any other country will be required to submit to fingerprinting."_ From the article: _"Currently, Canadians and Americans are able to enter the United States with little more identification than a driver's licence or a birth certificate, though a passport has sometimes made it simpler to satisfy immigration officers at the border."
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/05/1945242&tid=158&tid=103

 ====
_Heres the full article:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/05/passports050405.html


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## ginshun (Apr 5, 2005)

Its a good start.

 How does the border with Mexico work now?  I know I didn't need a passport last time I was there, but that was like 6 years ago.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

Well, This'll definately effect me.  I'm not sure I want to spend an extra $100 a year just in case I feel like going to Toronto for a convention.


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## OUMoose (Apr 5, 2005)

Well I'm glad I got my passport stuff in yesterday for my trip to Canada.  Never quite understood why Canada and Mexico got special treatment from the state department, but then again I don't understand alot of things about the government...   :idunno:


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## ginshun (Apr 5, 2005)

It costs a $100 a year to have a passport? 

 I never even used mine, because I changed jobs, and the whole reason I got it was for work, but I thought it was just so much to get it and it was good for like 10 years.  I know I still have it, and I am pretty sure its not expired.


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## BlackCatBonz (Apr 5, 2005)

my family went to florida for a vacation last october to our family condo..........we were told before we went all my wife and i would need was our drivers licences. WRONG!! you would have thought we were KGB the way they grilled us.....and we came this close to being refused from boarding our flight.
when we came home it was just as bad being held up bt canadian customs wanting proof that we were canadian citizens.
im going to make sure i have a passport this year.


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## raedyn (Apr 5, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> Never quite understood why Canada and Mexico got special treatment from the state department


Might have something to do with NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) that the three countries are all signed onto. The whole point is to make easy, tariff- and barrier-free trade, travel & commerce between the three countries.

(Not that the US lives up to its end of the deal.... but that's for another thread)


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

Correcting my minunderstanding on rates, etc.


*US Passport information*

Age 16 and older: The passport fee is $55. The security surcharge is $12. The execution fee is $30. The total is $97.

Under Age 16:  The passport fee is $40. The security surcharge is $12.  The execution fee is $30. The total is $82.

Pasport is valid for 10 years

http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_1738.html


================

*Canadian Passport information*
Cost is $22-87+
Is valid for 3-5 years depending on age of holder

http://www.ppt.gc.ca/passports/how_obtain_e.asp


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## Bammx2 (Apr 5, 2005)

nah...this ain't kool.
big brother is stepping way too far over the boundries.
He needs a spankin!
I know some sre gonna say "its good to keep the terrorists out" or just the "bad people" in general....
I do not care.
 I am a natural born US citizen and now I am supposed to jump through hoops to get BACK into my own country?
 I'll stick with my 300 year old HAUNTED farmhouse.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




y'all come fer a visit


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

I'm sure this will help.
I mean, passports can't be forged.
And the thousands of miles of un watched or patroled borders won't be used to sneak in.
I mean, Ali-Osama and the 40 Weinies would never think of using SCUBA to swim ashore from a passing ship or sub.  And the existing system has done so well stopping drugs and illegal aliens from coming in.


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 5, 2005)

Yeah, I agree. This should put an end to all our security concerns.


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## Ping898 (Apr 5, 2005)

Wow, that security sercharge is new.  I got a passport bout 6 months ago and only $85, no $12 fee.


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## Sam (Apr 5, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> How does the border with Mexico work now? I know I didn't need a passport last time I was there, but that was like 6 years ago.


I just got back from mexico. I needed my passport and another form of ID as well as my birth certificate. 



			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Pasport is valid for 10 years


If you were under 18 when you got your passport it is only valid for 5 years.


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 5, 2005)

> I'm sure this will help.
> I mean, passports can't be forged.
> And the thousands of miles of un watched or patroled borders won't be used to sneak in.
> I mean, Ali-Osama and the 40 Weinies would never think of using SCUBA to swim ashore from a passing ship or sub. And the existing system has done so well stopping drugs and illegal aliens from coming in.


Another good thing is that there aren't any terrorists already in the US, either.


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## Sam (Apr 5, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> Another good thing is that there aren't any terrorists already in the US, either.


are you being sarcastic?


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## Bester (Apr 5, 2005)

How would they get in?  The borders were secured immediately after 9/11, and the extra security at the airports has made us safe.  We will certainly see Peace in Our Time.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

I blame the Canadian government. After all, it was them that allowed entry to the 9/11 hijackers, all Iraqis mind you, that forced the US to attack Iraq so they wouldn't use their WMD.

Oh wait....
The hijackers were mostly from Saudi Arabia (A major US ally), not Iraqi.
They entered on Student Visas, from US entry points, not Canadian.
Oh, and there weren't any WMD.

But....Dubya wouldn't lie...would he?

Wait...his lips were moving.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 5, 2005)

This is a new era for us.

  Not to long ago if you wanted to sell you used sex.

  Now, you use fear and misstrust.

  Only this time, politicians can use it too


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## Sam (Apr 5, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> But....Dubya wouldn't lie...would he?
> 
> Wait...his lips were moving.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!~~~~

can I use that in my siggy?

*edit*
yay! I got a blue belt!

wait a minute. green is higher than blue.

wtf?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

Samantha said:
			
		

> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!~~~~
> 
> can I use that in my siggy?
> 
> ...


 Color progression depends on system. We.....borrowed..yeah, thats it, borrowed, from several different ones.


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## Sam (Apr 5, 2005)

you never told me if I could use that in my siggy.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 5, 2005)

hehehe.
Go right ahead. (Just watch the space rules)


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 5, 2005)

I travel with my passport now through Canada.

They already input your license plate number and get your address on their computer, and they ask you "Where you live?". If it does not match you get a lot more questions and investigations. 

As to Passport fraud, US Passports are the number one target for fakes, as I was explained, by "customs" of different countries, that the way I look, and traveling on US passport it is suspect.

It is another form of identity check. I trave with Passport, ID and Birth Cert. and other various ID's. 

Will it stop everything? No. Will it inconvience some of the people who have nto felt it before? Yes? Will it help? Some.


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## Sarah (Apr 5, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> It is another form of identity check. I trave with Passport, ID and Birth Cert. and other various ID's.
> .


What about for people who are not American....I will obviously have my passport when I come over, but will I need birth cert etc as well to get into Canada??  Jeez, better start looking for it.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

Counterfiet passports?

There are european countires(which most people just look right over)where you you can get almost any country(US included) for 3-5 grand!
 All the security in the world isn't gonna stop a good "fingersmith".

How long til the "bio-barcodes"?!


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## Lisa (Apr 6, 2005)

Sarah said:
			
		

> What about for people who are not American....I will obviously have my passport when I come over, but will I need birth cert etc as well to get into Canada?? Jeez, better start looking for it.


 Sarah, in these times, and now with this announcement, come over with as much ID as you possibly can, cause us Canadians are certainly suspect of any kiwis coming over, we here their coming to take over the world (muahahahahahah!)  

 Seriously though, I took my daughter over the American border a couple of months ago and they wanted a signed noterized letter from my husband to allow me to take her myself to ensure I wasn't "stealing" her from him.  The times they certainly are a changin'.

 But seriously, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have your birth certificate.  Didn't you need it to get your passport?


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## KenpoTess (Apr 6, 2005)

Seig and I are going to Sydney in June and I was totally flabbergasted that the passport mandates will not accept a drivers license as ID if it's within 6 months since renewal.. now that's stupid~!!
I renewed mine in December 04 and now I gotta get all sorts of other ID together .....

I lived on the border of Canada in the 1000 Islands,  We would take the Ferry across to Wolf Island into Kingston on a daily basis.. I'm wondering how they will do border patrols *never had to show any ID to use that route.


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## ginshun (Apr 6, 2005)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Seig and I are going to Sydney in June and I was totally flabbergasted that the passport mandates will not accept a drivers license as ID if it's within 6 months since renewal.. now that's stupid~!!
> I renewed mine in December 04 and now I gotta get all sorts of other ID together .....
> 
> I lived on the border of Canada in the 1000 Islands, We would take the Ferry across to Wolf Island into Kingston on a daily basis.. I'm wondering how they will do border patrols *never had to show any ID to use that route.


 Well, seeing as how half the states will issue drivers licence to illegal aliens, I am kind of surprised that they let you use it as ID for getting your passport at all.

 Honestly, I don't understand why people are bellyaching about this.  All it can do is good.  If the inconvienience of paying $100 every ten years is too much for you, then maybe you just shouldn't leave the country.  Sheesh!


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## OUMoose (Apr 6, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> Well, seeing as how half the states will issue drivers licence to illegal aliens, I am kind of surprised that they let you use it as ID for getting your passport at all.
> 
> Honestly, I don't understand why people are bellyaching about this.  All it can do is good.  If the inconvienience of paying $100 every ten years is too much for you, then maybe you just shouldn't leave the country.  Sheesh!



In a strange sort of happenstance, I'm leaning toward agreeing with Ginshun for once.  I don't necessarily think it'll do good, but it'll certainly standarize access regulation across the board, which will make it easier on the toll booth guards.  

Now, that said, if those border guards have a problem with my new shiny Passport when I come back from Canada, they're going to have a very irate Moose on their hands...


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## KenpoTess (Apr 6, 2005)

The driver's license issue is just easier to show that ID than having to procur 7 other forms.  You still need a Birth Certificate and illegal Aliens don't have that (unless forged)... so I have to come up with a HS yearbook (Passport preferred choice), and I sure as hell don't look anything like I did in HS....... 
I'm not bellyaching about the price, nor the fact they are moving in that direction.  For years crossing the border into Ontario, all you had to do was 'Tell the guards where you were born and they waved you through'...
I think it's a good thing..  I'm just kvetching bout the ID bit.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

We;ve enjoyed the ability to come and go without too much hassle for decades. Now, at a time when other nations like the EU are opening borders, we are closing our.

This will not increase security. Hell building a "Great Wall" and properly manning it would do more. It just gives the illusion of safety, much like the increased, but proven no more effectual airport security.

But, if only the Canadian Government had stopped those Iraqi terrorists from crossing into Buffalo, we wouldn't have had to invade Iraq and stop Sadamn from attacking us with his WMD. If only we'd thought to check their passports (which are non-forgable of course), life would still be normal.

Oh wait....
- The Terrorists were Saudis (US Allies)
- They entered in in US ports, not Canadian
- They had the proper papers (Student VISAs I believe)
- What WMD?
Oh yeah...
- RFID is a joke, forgable and an invasion of privacy.

So, someone tell me how requiring passports will somehow improve security?
The terrorists with the money will just forge em (US passports are among the most-forged documents in the world), and those who can't will simply sneak accross at any of the thousands of unwatched parts of our border.

But....we will have the "illusion" of safety, and that the government has done "something".

So what if it will complicate our lives, cost us 10's of billions of dollars, etc.


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## Deuce (Apr 6, 2005)

I caught a bit of this on the news last night, and it sounds as though Canada will be implementing the same procedure. If it allows people to cross the border with less hasle and increases security, then it sounds good to me. Even though I've never had a problem crossing over into the states with only my driver's license. One time it was even expired, and they didn't even mention it (just for the record, I wasn't driving).

I just think that a fake passport would be easier to identify than a fake driver's license. A Canadian passport will be standard accross the provinces, but driver's licenses can be fairly different, with different security features. I think using a passport will also save time for authentication.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 6, 2005)

I'm figuring by 2010 the US will have enclosed themselves in a Giant Dome and cut off outside contact completely


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

If it wasn't for the cost, the fact that we've never needed them, and the fact it won't really make things more secure, I'd be ok with it.


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## Deuce (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> If it wasn't for the cost, the fact that we've never needed them, and the fact it won't really make things more secure, I'd be ok with it.


Wait for the day when full cavity searches will be required by everyone crossing!:erg:


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## Makalakumu (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> If it wasn't for the cost, the fact that we've never needed them, and the fact it won't really make things more secure, I'd be ok with it.



I could be in Canada in three hours and absolutely no one would know...except maybe my wife. 

Passports are just another bureaucratic procedure, a hoop for good people to jump through.  In a way, passports make it easier for the government to breath down the neck of the average citizen.

I can't see it having any effect on the bad guys.


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## loki09789 (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Well, This'll definately effect me. I'm not sure I want to spend an extra $100 a year just in case I feel like going to Toronto for a convention.


Shouldn't it be a write off is you are travelling for business:  Martial arts or Computer/System related travel?


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## loki09789 (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I'm sure this will help.
> I mean, passports can't be forged.
> And the thousands of miles of un watched or patroled borders won't be used to sneak in.
> I mean, Ali-Osama and the 40 Weinies would never think of using SCUBA to swim ashore from a passing ship or sub. And the existing system has done so well stopping drugs and illegal aliens from coming in.


So let's just complain about what has gone before, complain about the steps that are being taken....what exactly would be productive then?

These types of screening steps are not a waste of time if it helps deter terrorists from traveling throught borders... or even stops a future attack (in Canada, the USA OR Mexico for that matter).

Just like in Martial arts - no one plan is perfect, if someone really wants to get it or out on you they will no matter what you know or do.  Stuff like this may help reduce that statistical chance.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So let's just complain about what has gone before, complain about the steps that are being taken....what exactly would be productive then?
> 
> These types of screening steps are not a waste of time if it helps deter terrorists from traveling throught borders... or even stops a future attack (in Canada, the USA OR Mexico for that matter).
> 
> Just like in Martial arts - no one plan is perfect, if someone really wants to get it or out on you they will no matter what you know or do.  Stuff like this may help reduce that statistical chance.


 The problem is, is that it stops the stupid ones, but not the ones with some planning or backing.  As I said, how hard would it be for someone with cash, to get a surplus sub, load it up, and let a few frogmen out off shore?  

When they have managed to figure out how to stop the illegals from crossing in, how to stop the importation of drugs, maybe, just maybe, I'll think they have the ability to do proper ID checks.

To me, it's one more expense, 1 more item to keep track of, 1 more item to worry about, in an age when, I simply don't have time.

I need:
* my birth certificate (easily self-printed)
* A Social Security card (which was never meant to be ID, and very few groups are legally entitled to see it.  Hint - Your land lord is not 1 of them)
* A drivers Licence (which says I have permission to drive, and is easily forged)

Now, I need yet another paper, which is still forgable.

Where is the security?
Do we think Osama can't afford a couple more reams of paper?


Heres an Idea.
National ID card.
Card has image of you, fingerprints, contact info, and an ID # (Not SSN)
Anyone who needs to verify your ID subscribes to a service (encrypted) and can run your card through (wand it, flash it, swipe it, etc).  
You place a finger on a reader, it scans ya.
It checks the central database, displays the intel in the DB, and the pic.
It's a match, youre good.
If not, yer toast.

Works as ID, Drivers Licence, Passport, union card, whatever.

1 card.  Not 1 bazillion bits of paper.
Your FACE and prints become your ID.

The card in your possesion, your face and your prints MUST match what is in the encrpyted db.  Osama can run off a million of em.  Unless he has access to the DB to insert his boys prints.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Shouldn't it be a write off is you are travelling for business:  Martial arts or Computer/System related travel?


 I do.
It's nice that I can write off most martial arts, sci fi or computer related expenses.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

No matter what side of the "wall" you're on...
only one thing is guarunteed to work in the long run.............
Education and time...LOTS of time!

 Its like a fist full of sand,the tighter you squeeze...the more slips through your fingers.
Its amasing how much more you can hold with an opened hand,don'tcha think?

Isolationism breeds suspicion and contempt....and we all know "isms" are bad things


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## Andrew Green (Apr 6, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Passports are just another bureaucratic procedure, a hoop for good people to jump through. In a way, passports make it easier for the government to breath down the neck of the average citizen.


 Yup, the harder you make it to do something legally, the more tempting it becomes to just do it illegally.

 Software is the same way.  Legal software is a pain in the...  Got to install it, enter a long key, register online, often can't run it without the disk, reinstalling is a pain.  Wonder how many people will just get fed up and go to either free software, or less then legal copies of the proprietary.

 Make border crossing a pain and it will get rather tempting to just cross at unpatrolled areas, simply for convienience...

 But punish the good people, that seems to be the way.  Give them the illusion that everyone has to go through that and the other ways must be far more trouble.

 The People that are going to use pirated software are going to use it regardless of what keys and registration get put in there, they'll find an easy way around it.  All that those things do is inconvience their paying customers, same for borders.  The bad people will get in regardless and this just pisses off the good people.


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## OUMoose (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> The problem is, is that it stops the stupid ones, but not the ones with some planning or backing.  As I said, how hard would it be for someone with cash, to get a surplus sub, load it up, and let a few frogmen out off shore?
> 
> When they have managed to figure out how to stop the illegals from crossing in, how to stop the importation of drugs, maybe, just maybe, I'll think they have the ability to do proper ID checks.
> 
> ...


Tell ya what.  Instead of a card, lets put it on a little chip and you can imbed all that info into the back of your hand.  Can't be duped, unless of course you rip off someone's hand.  

Nice thinking, Mr. Orwell.  

As was said, people will get in no matter what.  If it slows them down, great.  If it stops the dumb ones, even better.  All the other moaning and groaning is just because you're going to be inconvenienced for $10/year (which you could most likely find walking down the street).   :idunno:


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## loki09789 (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> The problem is, is that it stops the stupid ones, but not the ones with some planning or backing. As I said, how hard would it be for someone with cash, to get a surplus sub, load it up, and let a few frogmen out off shore?
> 
> When they have managed to figure out how to stop the illegals from crossing in, how to stop the importation of drugs, maybe, just maybe, I'll think they have the ability to do proper ID checks.
> 
> ...


First off, this passport thing has been in place in Europe for a long time and people have lived and it has proven useful for international policing to nab bad guys trying to cross borders.

Secondly, it is MUCH harder to get men, equiptment and such over borders that have intent to do harm BECAUSE they have to train somewhere, they have to buy things somewhere and they have to communicate with support networks than you would think. Having served in the military I know that it is expensive and time consuming through legitimate channels, it is even harder to do on a productive scale through illegitimate ones.

...passports are only part of a total system/package of security not a stand alone. 

Maybe just maybe, the passport thing will even have an impact on drug trafficing too.

Heck, screw the cards and let's go straight to subcutal ID barcodes for convenience:  One chip ALL your info in one convenient place....or is that too 'big brother' too.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

Ok....

True or False
- There is a database for personal information connected to your drivers licence.
- That database is already shared with various government and financial institutions.
- There is a database for information connected to your social security account.
- There is a database for information connected to your taxes and employment history.
- There is a database connected to your criminal history.
- There is a database connected to your medical history.
- There may be multiple databases at different locations that duplicate all or some of the above, with varying degrees of accuracy.

I live in NY.
NY has a database on me.
Several.
1 for my licence.
1 for my employement.
1 for my tax history.
etc.

How many companies maintain databases of our credit histories?

Is it an invasion of my privacy to centralize that information?
If it was centralized, wouldn't that mean the information had a better chance of being secure, accurate and properly controled? (IE my landlord couldn't demand my SSN anymore.)

Your face is mostly unique.  Your prints are in most cases unique.
We don't need a tatooed barcode, implanted chip, etc. Nature has already provided us with our unique identifyers. (Hell, include a sample of my DNA)

Right now, my personal data is scattered across a thousand agencies, who abuse and misuse it.  While I highly mistrust the government, if it was all in 1 place, I could more easily access it, check it, and assert my OWN control over it.

In the end, all the extra paperwork will only hurt the average, law obeying citizen.
As has been said so many times, the criminals don't care, and will find a way, regardless.

Yes, it is possible to abuse -any- system, but....
In an age when I can be denied housing because my landlord saw my tax returns, medical history and credit report, or an employer can decide I'm not employable because I'm in debt, or my car insurance is at it's highest because I was late on a few credit card payments, I find the abuse and invasion is already there.

I simply continue to fail to see how adding 1 more forgable document into the mix will do anything other than increase my costs.


Now...regarding that chip.....
Lets make it stylish, modular, with interchangable covers.  The kids will love it.
Call it Poke-RiF....gotta "bleep" em all.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So it really doesn't cost you a thing in the end.....


 A $300 deduction is not the same as $300 cash.
I have to come up with the money now.  Not later.
I do not get the money back at the end of the year.
It reduces my 'income' so I pay less taxes...but it is rarely a 1:1 ratio.

The fact that I can write off a $10,000 printer is nice.
I still need that $10,000.


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## loki09789 (Apr 6, 2005)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> A $300 deduction is not the same as $300 cash.
> I have to come up with the money now. Not later.
> I do not get the money back at the end of the year.
> It reduces my 'income' so I pay less taxes...but it is rarely a 1:1 ratio.
> ...


Well if you could afford that $10,000 printer it doesn't seem that you 'need' the written off amount in cash as much as it would be nice to be able to have both or that you 'want' it.

Same with the passport expense...of course you could support good old US trade and stay within the borders for business, contribute to the US economy pool instead of spending your money on foriegn soil.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> First off, this passport thing has been in place in Europe for a long time and people have lived and it has proven useful for international policing to nab bad guys trying to cross borders.


 Last conversation I had with a European, they basically said once you're in the EU, it's like crossing from NY to PA.



> Secondly, it is MUCH harder to get men, equiptment and such over borders that have intent to do harm BECAUSE they have to train somewhere, they have to buy things somewhere and they have to communicate with support networks than you would think. Having served in the military I know that it is expensive and time consuming through legitimate channels, it is even harder to do on a productive scale through illegitimate ones.


 Many toxins can be smuggled in small containers, easily transported by 1 man.  AK-47's are $7 each in Somalia. Waterproof containers, scuba gear, and many "very dangerous things" are easily obtained, inexpensively, if you know where to look.  Small unit "hit squads" can easily swim ashore on 3 coasts.

 I'd feel better if I knew how many interceptions had been done...rather than giving illegals SSI.

 [quote...passports are only part of a total system/package of security not a stand alone. [/quote] 
 And the system depends on trained border patrol, who know what to look for, who have the equipment to look with, and the manpower to do it right. All 3 are pieces that have been sorely lacking for years.



> Maybe just maybe, the passport thing will even have an impact on drug trafficing too.


 Only from the dumb ones.



> Heck, screw the cards and let's go straight to subcutal ID barcodes for convenience: One chip ALL your info in one convenient place....or is that too 'big brother' too.


 Can I have mine on my ***?  This way, I can comply while showing em all what I think?


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## Andrew Green (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Same with the passport expense...of course you could support good old US trade and stay within the borders for business, contribute to the US economy pool instead of spending your money on foriegn soil.....


 Ok...  So if all those foreign countries stopped spending money that went to the US that would be good too?

 Kinda misses the idea of the free trade thing doesn't it?


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## TonyM. (Apr 6, 2005)

Apparently our forefathers made a big mistake and we really aren't ready for democracy and freedom. Too bad. It was a nice dream.


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## loki09789 (Apr 6, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Ok... So if all those foreign countries stopped spending money that went to the US that would be good too?
> 
> Kinda misses the idea of the free trade thing doesn't it?


I think you missed the smiley face that was intended to imply a joking comment.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 6, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I think you missed the smiley face that was intended to imply a joking comment.


 opps


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 6, 2005)

Returning to the requirement that US Citizens will need a US Passport to reenter the US...

Part of the problem is, we don't really think of Canada as a foriegn country.  In most cases, crossing the border has been little more uncomfortable than getting stuck at a toll booth on the highway.

We have over 75 possible forms of ID in this country, with regular updates, changes, etc. High school kids have for decades made knockoffs so they can get into bars to drink.  So, I can see reason to say "This one is the one we accept.  The rest are no longer valid.".

So, from an efficency level, yeah, it makes sence.

But, to suggest we will somehow be safer because of it...I doubt it.
For as much as it streamlines and simplifys things for the Border Patrol, it also simplifys things for the "bad guys" who can now focus on counterfitting 1 ID form, rather than many.

It also doesn't address the fact that they can counterfit other nations just as well.

To me, it is an inconcenience, an unwelcome expense, and in the end, little more than "the illusion of security".


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## raedyn (Apr 6, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I think the confusion lies with Americans (not all, but some) - every Canadian I have met is well aware of the often large differences between the two - which often comes out with the waves of Americans seeks drugs and healthcare up north, for example.


YES!
Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.

Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that get paid until they're 70 (whether they actually show up to work or not) and then get a sweet retirement package? Where are your multiple political parties that actually have representation in the halls of the national government? Can you name all 50 states, 9 provinces and 3 territories? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married? 

Oh what, you mean we aren't the same? Oh. I see.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 6, 2005)

raedyn said:
			
		

> YES!
> Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.
> 
> Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that serve until they're 70 and then get a sweet retirement package? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married? Oh what, you mean we aren't the same? Oh. I see.



It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite.  So, the rest of the trip (* two weeks *) it was just easier to say I was Canadian then to have the locals tell me No way, you are not American. You speak some Japanese, . . .

Living north of Canada as I do (* Windsor is South / South East of Detroit  *) I have had some interactions with Canadians. Just like any culture, there are nice and there a meand or rude, or helpful or . . . .

 :asian:


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

raedyn said:
			
		

> YES!
> Many Canadians (myself included) get pretty offended at the notion that we're the same as Americans.
> 
> Let's see how many of you can be dirt poor, no job and still walk into any hospital you want and get the same medical care as the richest dude in the country. What was America's second official language again? Who is your Queen? Who are your non-elected Senators that can't be recalled and that get paid until they're 70 (whether they actually show up to work or not) and then get a sweet retirement package? Where are your multiple political parties that actually have representation in the halls of the national government? Can you name all 50 states, 9 provinces and 3 territories? What percentage of your population suffers through minus 40 winters? Can your gay and lesbian citizens get legally married?
> ...


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## Feisty Mouse (Apr 6, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite.  So, the rest of the trip (* two weeks *) it was just easier to say I was Canadian then to have the locals tell me No way, you are not American. You speak some Japanese, . . .


Similar to my experience in Australia.  My friend and I -both American - were often mistaken for/assumed we were Canadian - because we were polite, and down-to-earth.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> It was quite funny, I was in Japan, and everryone asked me if I was Canadian? I replied no why? They said I was not rude and willing to be polite.  I have been in the UK for 5 years now and I get the same thing here,only opposite.
> They talk about the arrogance the canadians have.
> But do I agree?
> NNOOOOOOO!
> ...


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## Feisty Mouse (Apr 6, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> I have been in the UK for 5 years now and I get the same thing here,only opposite.
> They talk about the arrogance the canadians have.
> But do I agree?
> NNOOOOOOO!
> ...


I think you are still free to make a contribution, if you are talking about demonstrating to people from another country that you are a good representative of your nation.... I'd focus more on what you do than anything else. How raedyn's comments will affect your friend in the UK is beyond me. 

And with comments like



> Oh shucks...we have offended somebody
> :shrug:


you're not going to win more friends to your cause, lol.


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## Bammx2 (Apr 6, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I think you are still free to make a contribution, if you are talking about demonstrating to people from another country that you are a good representative of your nation.... I'd focus more on what you do than anything else. How raedyn's comments will affect your friend in the UK is beyond me.
> 
> And with comments like
> 
> ...


I understand everything you said.
Except "my friend"...I mean the whole country here.Since this is where I live for the time being and will for some time to come.
 The only thing that makes me different from certain people is the fact that I don't judge a whole country based on  the  moronic politicians who represent it..
 I don't believe in ANY polictical party anywhere.
 They are NOT the true representation of the people of the country as a whole.
 I have met people here who STILL thinks the they are the aristocracy from the middle ages and based on that,they are the true representatives of the UK.Sorry!
 I just get fed up when people pass judgement when they have no idea.So I am guilty of throwin a rock or two in defense of my "tribe"......
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




But I must say...there is one thing I miss about ohio.............
Indiana!


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## Tgace (Apr 11, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Its not a funny joke at all. In fact, its offensive. To which "the National confusion" do you refer?


OK now my Canadian friends dont take this the wrong way. I have no real opinion on the topic, but I found this in my perusing of the internet. When I read it I recalled this little spat about the US/Canadian comparison. I thought some may find it interesting. If its worth a thread split so be it....

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/article.jsp?content=75850#

Remember, Its from a Canadian source...


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## raedyn (Apr 11, 2005)

I would be interested to reply to that article. I suggest a thread split for all the comments re: difference between Canada & US. It's a discussion I have a lot of interest in, but it doesn't really belong to the passport thread.

Thanks!


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## raedyn (Apr 11, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> Being from the south,I still defended everyone and tell them not judge the whole country on the actions of a few.


This is a good point. There are polite Canadians, sure. But rude ones too. And obviously there are lots of great Americans - I've met some of them on this board.




			
				Bammx2 said:
			
		

> But thank you raedyn....
> its people like you who make my contribution IMPOSSIBLE!


I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean with this sentence. Do you mind explaining it a little further, please?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> OK now my Canadian friends dont take this the wrong way. I have no real opinion on the topic, but I found this in my perusing of the internet. When I read it I recalled this little spat about the US/Canadian comparison. I thought some may find it interesting. If its worth a thread split so be it....
> 
> http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/article.jsp?content=75850#
> 
> Remember, Its from a Canadian source...





			
				raedyn said:
			
		

> I would be interested to reply to that article. I suggest a thread split for all the comments re: difference between Canada & US. It's a discussion I have a lot of interest in, but it doesn't really belong to the passport thread.
> 
> Thanks!



What are the differences?  What are the similarities?  Which is better?  Which is worse?  How can we learn from each other?

This discussion sounds like a lot of fun!

upnorthkyosa


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## raedyn (Apr 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Which is better? Which is worse?


The rest of your questions I am happy to discuss. These two are, IMO, pointless. That's like arguing which is yummier dark or milk chocolate. Most people can agree that both are pretty good, but there are reasons to prefer each one, and you aren't going to change anybody's mind by talking about it. They each have their strong points and their challenges, but it's pointless to get into an arguement about which is better.

I'm holding off on replying until an Admin moves the comments from the other thread into this one. Cheers.


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## Tgace (Apr 11, 2005)

I came across the article while doing some research on media and gun violence in the US. Which lead me to think..Canada imports a lot of our entertainment, music, Television (near the borders) etc. Yet they dont have the same rate of violence, so can the media really be blamed?

Another reason I contributed it is that some of my Canadian associates seemed to take offense at the "fuzzy national identity" point that was mentioned and wanted to know the source. I had heard of the issue from Canadian radio myself a few years back.

Im with Raedyn, its not an issue of better/worse. Although it is an example of how criticism can always cut both ways.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> What are the differences?  What are the similarities?  Which is better?  Which is worse?  How can we learn from each other?
> 
> This discussion sounds like a lot of fun!
> 
> upnorthkyosa



Which is better and which is worse isn't referring to the countries as a whole.  It is referring to ideas/programs/institutions.  This question is highly relevent and one is able to support their opinions with data.  

The most important question in my mind is "How can we learn from each other?"

I'm curious as to how much Canada spends on the military compared to the US.  Do any of my Canadian friends know the figures for their country?


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## Tgace (Apr 11, 2005)

I have never really thought about Canadian military spending. From what I have just seen from google is that they have budgeted a signifigant ammount of $$ in this years budget for it. Probably to rectify issues mentioned in this article...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2185/is_8_13/ai_94335019


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I have never really thought about Canadian military spending. From what I have just seen from google is that they have budgeted a signifigant ammount of $$ in this years budget for it. Probably to rectify issues mentioned in this article...
> 
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2185/is_8_13/ai_94335019



Good article.  When you think about some of the issues raised, it makes one think about alot of the things we take for granted in the US.  For, the importance of the Coast Guard.  Another is the sheer amount the US spends on the military.  Our taxpayers, according to this article, certainly seem to bearing a considerable military burden for other countries.  It doesn't seem fair to me...in fact, it makes me wonder at the wisdom of cutting our military spending.  If other countries aren't footing their share of the bill, a rather large amount of chaos could ensue...


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 11, 2005)

Beyond noting that the B-2 bomber costs 2 billion per airplane, for a "stealth bomber," whose anti-radar paint washes off in the rain and which has to be kept in air-conditioned hangars--and which was designed to fly over the Soviet Union AFTER a full-scale nuclear exchange took place and kill all their surviving leaders (to quote Edw. Teller on the subject of the Orion project, "Zis is not nuts. Zis is supernuts.")--I'd look at the Congressional Budget Office.

http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4010&sequence=4


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## Makalakumu (Apr 11, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Beyond noting that the B-2 bomber costs 2 billion per airplane, for a "stealth bomber," whose anti-radar paint washes off in the rain and which has to be kept in air-conditioned hangars--and which was designed to fly over the Soviet Union AFTER a full-scale nuclear exchange took place and kill all their surviving leaders (to quote Edw. Teller on the subject of the Orion project, "Zis is not nuts. Zis is supernuts.")--I'd look at the Congressional Budget Office.
> 
> http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=4010&sequence=4



And when Edward Teller says something is nuts...nay _supernuts _ that is saying something.  Good link.


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## Tgace (Apr 11, 2005)

Yeah, I have to agree, the DOD has had many boondoggle projects...

Before we get sidetracked though...Canada. Can you really blame them for not spending a lot of money on defense? Unless they view us as a military threat, what is the need? Although, if they want to "put their money where their mouths are" (so to speak) in terms of foreign policy they probably should look into strengthening it. The coastal defense issue is troubling however.

I admit ignorance in regards to knowledge of what Canadians think of their own national identity. The whole England connection, Quebec/French independence thing and this topic has me a little hazy on the issue. I am interested in what our Canadian friends will have to say...


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## Feisty Mouse (Apr 12, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yeah, I have to agree, the DOD has had many boondoggle projects...
> 
> Before we get sidetracked though...Canada. Can you really blame them for not spending a lot of money on defense? Unless they view us as a military threat, what is the need? Although, if they want to "put their money where their mouths are" (so to speak) in terms of foreign policy they probably should look into strengthening it. The coastal defense issue is troubling however.
> 
> I admit ignorance in regards to knowledge of what Canadians think of their own national identity. The whole England connection, Quebec/French independence thing and this topic has me a little hazy on the issue. I am interested in what our Canadian friends will have to say...


 I don't think Canadians are worried about their own national identity - they have one.  It's just different (sometimes very different) than ours.


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## raedyn (Apr 12, 2005)

So many topics have been brought up here that I don't even know where to begin!


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## Tgace (Apr 12, 2005)

Well get started! 

I really am interested in a Canadian's opinion. Ive come to realize that even though I live so close to Canada and have visited quite a few times, I know little about the nation itself.


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## Tgace (Apr 12, 2005)

Just some more grist for the mill....

http://www.qub.ac.uk/en/imperial/canada/nationid.htm

This one is pretty enlightening to a Non-Canadian
http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/forum/1998/august/identity.html



> The famous Canadian architect Arthur Erickson agrees. He argues that Canada's lack of national identity will prove to be our strength in the next century as the world moves toward a "humanity-wide consciousness." By having "no history of cultural or political hegemony-almost no history at all to hinder us-we are welcomed over all other nations. We are more open to, curious about, and perceptive of other cultures." In Erickson's (1997, p. A17) view, "world economic issues rather than national interest will undermine the old paradigms."


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## raedyn (Apr 12, 2005)

There are some useful points in the Maclean's article. There are a lot of similarities between our countries and our 'cultures'*. One thing that I disagree with is how the article mostly uses government policy to show how similar or different the countires are. This is one factor, certainly, but for every country there is more to the picture than that. Certainly Bush's (for example) actions reflect on his people, since he does them as America's representative and in the name of his people, but it would be wrong to assume that his opinion can be assumed to be shared by all his citizens. I would also point out that the article is 3 years old. So while the issues haven't changed significantly many of the details no longer apply.

*(I put it in quotation marks because we are so young neither country has a deeply developed history and culture and identity. Compare with, say, Greece Japan Turkey.)

I wonder if increased scrutiny at the border will contribute to all of us recognizing more the distinctions between the two countires. Like Canadians don't really consider it "travelling" when someone goes to the US. I've travelled extensively in the US. Probably more than I have in my own country (for shame). But I've never been to South America, Asia, Europe, so Canadians generally wouldn't say I'd travelled.


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## Tgace (Apr 12, 2005)

I am really kind of disappointed in this whole passport thing. I guess most Americans who dont live along the border cant appreciate the "open" atmosphere there is. (now was I guess). I remember Canadians posting huge banners on the other side of the Niagara river in support of us after 9/11.....quite a few Canadians work in my area (as do Americans in Canada) that has to be quite a pain now...


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## raedyn (Apr 12, 2005)

The article (dated November 2002) suggests that because neither country had an impending election (we both had them last year) old trade disputes like softwood lumber may be resolved. This has not happened in the three years since that article was published. In fact, new trade disputes have sprung up - like the one over BSE/mad cow.

Over the past oh.. 5 years or so (strangely, pretty much since Bush came into power in the US) there has been a series of unrelated events that give me (and other Canadians) the impession that our relationship with the US is deteriorating. Some people are very concerned about this, as the US is currently our most important trading partner, and they cite the possibilities of economic problems if we alienate our neighbour. Other people feel that it's time we stood up for our own country and our own interests and stopped trying to constantly pander to American interests.


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## raedyn (Apr 12, 2005)

Some of Canadians' feelings towards the US are not unique to Canada. People in many countries view United States as a bit of a bully, and increasingly an imperalist power. Whether it is an accurate description or not can be debated, but the fact remains that many non-Americans percieve this to be the case. For Canadians, it is intensified (I believe) due to our proximity - it would be relatively simple for the US to dominate us if you took a mind to. Picture a grade school bully. Everyone in the class is at least a little bit afraid of him, but nobody wants to sit right next to him because he's doubly intimidate when he's _right there_.


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## Tgace (Apr 12, 2005)

raedyn said:
			
		

> Some of Canadians' feelings towards the US are not unique to Canada. People in many countries view United States as a bit of a bully, and increasingly an imperalist power. Whether it is an accurate description or not can be debated, but the fact remains that many non-Americans percieve this to be the case. For Canadians, it is intensified (I believe) due to our proximity - it would be relatively simple for the US to dominate us if you took a mind to. Picture a grade school bully. Everyone in the class is at least a little bit afraid of him, but nobody wants to sit right next to him because he's doubly intimidate when he's _right there_.


Yes, but that "big bully" is also the reason your country can afford to spend very little militarily. I would hope most Canadians would believe we would resopnd to any attack against your country (God forbid) should such occur.


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## raedyn (Apr 12, 2005)

I agree with the assessment that the military might of the US does allow us somewhat the luxury of spending so little on our military. However, I don't think that the US is a good example of what a country 'should' spend to protect itself. American military prowess far exceeds what the US requires to protect against a foreign military attack.

I do not know if the US would respond to any attack against our country. In a way, why would they? And why would we want them to? I don't mean that we'd be left entirely alone to fight, but it's not like we're expecting the Americans to fight FOR us. We just tend to think (rightly or wrongly) that no one will attack us. I mean, who doesn't like Canada? It's probably a little naieve, but I do think that's the general sentiment.


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## Deuce (Apr 12, 2005)

raedyn said:
			
		

> I agree with the assessment that the military might of the US does allow us somewhat the luxury of spending so little on our military. However, I don't think that the US is a good example of what a country 'should' spend to protect itself. American military prowess far exceeds what the US requires to protect against a foreign military attack.
> 
> I do not know if the US would respond to any attack against our country. In a way, why would they? And why would we want them to? I don't mean that we'd be left entirely alone to fight, but it's not like we're expecting the Americans to fight FOR us. We just tend to think (rightly or wrongly) that no one will attack us. I mean, who doesn't like Canada? It's probably a little naieve, but I do think that's the general sentiment.


I agree. We just kind of sit in the background watching all the conflict until we can run in and do peace keeping missions. It seems like peace keeping is the major function of the Canadian military, which generally seems well recognized and respected around the world. And being the neighbor and allie of the world's super power is also a good deterrent to attack Canada.


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## PeachMonkey (Apr 12, 2005)

raedyn said:
			
		

> I do not know if the US would respond to any attack against our country. In a way, why would they?


 As a party to the North Atlantic Treaty, the United States is obligated to respond to any attack on Canada (or any other NATO member) under the terms of Article 5 (see http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm).  

 The US has a history of violating treaties whenever it's convenient to it, but I doubt it would be in any national or political interest for the US to violate such a framework defense treaty of the 20th and 21st centuries.



			
				Deuce said:
			
		

> It seems like peace keeping is the major function of the Canadian military, which generally seems well recognized and respected around the world.


 The Canadian military has a well-earned reputation for prowess that predates its modern-day peacekeeping functions; Canadians were often used as the shock troops of the British Commonwealth, and earned a fearsome reputation on the battlefields of the world.


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## dubljay (Apr 12, 2005)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> As a party to the North Atlantic Treaty, the United States is obligated to respond to any attack on Canada (or any other NATO member) under the terms of Article 5 (see http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm).
> 
> The US has a history of violating treaties whenever it's convenient to it, but I doubt it would be in any national or political interest for the US to violate such a framework defense treaty of the 20th and 21st centuries.
> 
> ...


 I agree that the US has a nasty habit of ignoring treaties.  As for NATO that seems to me that it is nothing more than a friendly formality.  NATO was born out of a fear of communism, with the fall of the Soviet Union NATO really doesnt mean much (to my knowledge).

 As for Canadians being the shock troops for the UK common wealth I was unaware of this... thats pretty impresive.

 -Josh


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