# New to Karate



## Hagakure (Jan 26, 2009)

Hi all,

I've studied a variety of MA in the past, Wing Chun, Ju jutsu, but never Karate. There's a class not too far from me, the Sensai seems to be a nice guy, helpful, informative, the classes seem to contain a mix of kata, sparring and then a combination of them in a self defence capacity. With all MA, I'm interested in their traditions and the little gems that one can use to get out of a scrape, or better yet, avoiding getting into one in the first place.

I'm informed that the style blends both Shotokan and Goju-Ryu. I've tried doing a little research on them, but sometimes the material seems.... contradictory? So, could anyone kindly enlighten me as to their orgins, what to expect, are they hard/soft as I might recognise from CMA, Okinwan or Japanese, or does that even matter? 

I've decided to cross train in ju jutsu also, as my old Wing Chun class is too far away for me now that I've moved. Onwards and upwards, a new MA to learn, the start of a new adventure. 

Cheers,


H


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## terryl965 (Jan 26, 2009)

Best of luck to you :asian:


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## jarrod (Jan 26, 2009)

given the options, i vote for "doesn't even matter".  

what style/s of jujitsu will you be adding?

jf


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 26, 2009)

I may have missed it but what system of Karate is it your looking at


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## Hagakure (Jan 26, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> I may have missed it but what system of Karate is it your looking at


 
The club states that it is a blend of Shotokan and Goju-ryu, so a hybrid of both I'd imagine. I'm curious about the "effectiveness" of them, which I understand is almost a rhetorical question, as, how do you assess the "effectiveness" of a given MA? I guess I'm interested in the views of those who've spent time training in them, citing the plusses and negatives of them both. Eyes wide open kinda thing.

The ju-jutsu is also a blend, again, the club mention that it is a little of Hontai Yo Shin Ryu I, Yuko Ryu, Myo Shin Ryu Tai Jitsu, Aiki Jutsu etc. The only true style being Myo Shin Ryu though. As I said though, coming from a CMA background, it's tricky to pick up what this means immediately. 

The classes seem pretty good, blend a lot of things, there's more emphasis on kicks, grappling, weapons defences and padded sparring. Although my old Wing Chun class was far more intense in one to one fighting, without pads too, however, there was no grappling, kicks (an important part of any inventory in my book) weren't often practiced, and zip against weapons. The plusses were that it was incredibly aggressive at getting the first strikes in, first, fastest and hardest, and the conditioning was harsh (which I think put a lot of people off, but I loved!), the logic of my old sifu being that when trouble occurs, the intial bodily response is to dump a shed load of adrenaline into the system, so if you can fight when your arms feel like lead, then "good on ya!" kinda thing.


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## Grenadier (Jan 26, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> The club states that it is a blend of Shotokan and Goju-ryu, so a hybrid of both I'd imagine. I'm curious about the "effectiveness" of them, which I understand is almost a rhetorical question, as, how do you assess the "effectiveness" of a given MA? I guess I'm interested in the views of those who've spent time training in them, citing the plusses and negatives of them both. Eyes wide open kinda thing.


 
It need not be contradictory.  After all, there are only so many ways that a human body can properly throw a punch, a kick, a block, or a throw, and any good system of martial arts will significantly overlap with other similarly good systems.  

Any Karate system can be effective, as long as the instructor is giving proper instruction.  

There's nothing wrong with a hybrid system.  After all, the one that I study is based on Wado Ryu, but with much of the hard striking from Shotokan added back in as a heavier emphasis.  Since I had trained in Shotokan Karate before, the transition to this school from my previous one (Shuri Ryu) was a smooth one.  

Let your eyes be the ultimate judge.  Since you already have a significant amount of experience, you can trust your instincts, as to whether or not this school will be good for you.


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2009)

You'll have quite a background! Good luck.


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## Hagakure (Jan 26, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> Let your eyes be the ultimate judge. Since you already have a significant amount of experience, *you can trust your instincts*, as to whether or not this school will be good for you.


 
I guess that's what it boils down to in the main. Trusting your instints... half the battle. I'm convinced about the classes, I'm wondering whether I can fit more training in too...

I'm still nonethewiser as to the origins of both Shotokan and Goju-ryu? Okinawan, Japanese? Understood the point that it's not important, but just for understanding the background. This is what I was referring to when I said some of the reports I'd read were contradictory.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 26, 2009)

I have a friend/instrucor who does both Shotokan and Goju.  He blends the two very effectivly.  

One thing to look for is Bunkai, the breaking down the forms too self defene movements.
You probably won't do that from the start, but watch and see if the higher ranks do that.


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## Hagakure (Jan 26, 2009)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I have a friend/instrucor who does both Shotokan and Goju. *He blends the two very effectivly.*
> 
> One thing to look for is Bunkai, the breaking down the forms too self defene movements.
> You probably won't do that from the start, but watch and see if the higher ranks do that.


 

This is what I'm really looking forward to. It's an adventure starting a new art, I'm used to knowing a decent amount about what I'm studying, but taking it back to basics is quite an eye opener!

Cheers,

H


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## jarrod (Jan 26, 2009)

i'm positive on this, but i'll tell you what i think is correct & if i'm wrong someone else can correct me.

karate came to okinawa from china.  gichen funakoshi introduced karate into the japanese education system making it known throughout japan.  this was the founding of shotokan karate, & is the grandaddy of most modern karate styles.  funakoshi sometimes wrote under the assumed name of "shoto" which means "pine-waves".  so "shotokan" means "pine-wave's hall".  

i'll let someone else fill you in on goju, but i _think_ there are two varieties of goju; okinawan & japanese.  at least that's what i've been told.  i took okinawan goju for a month or two while i was trying out schools once, & it seemed softer than shotokan & more similar to what i think of as kung fu or at least soft style cma.  but then i visited another goju school that looked pretty much like shotokan.  

i don't know much about the jujitsu styles you mentioned as i have primarily done japanese/american hybrid jujitsu styles, & i'm guessing the ones you listed are classical.  but the classes sound good!  

have fun,

jf


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2009)

jarrod said:


> karate came to okinawa from china.  gichen funakoshi introduced karate into the japanese education system making it known throughout japan.  this was the founding of shotokan karate, & is the grandaddy of most modern karate styles.  funakoshi sometimes wrote under the assumed name of "shoto" which means "pine-waves".  so "shotokan" means "pine-wave's hall".
> 
> i'll let someone else fill you in on goju, but i _think_ there are two varieties of goju; okinawan & japanese.  at least that's what i've been told.  i took okinawan goju for a month or two while i was trying out schools once, & it seemed softer than shotokan & more similar to what i think of as kung fu or at least soft style cma.  but then i visited another goju school that looked pretty much like shotokan.



Yup, that's pretty much how it happened! Okinawan karate isn't pure CMA but it's mostly Southern Chinese kung fu. Gichen Funakoshi wrote poetry as "Shoto" and hence the name.

There is at least Okinawan and Japanese Goju and the former is indeed softer but not by a great deal, I'd say--it's no longer overtly reminiscent of CMA but if you look more closely the roots are easy to see. There's also American Goju that's fairly popular.

I prefer Okinawan karate to Japanese as a rule, but that's a personal thing.


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## Hagakure (Jan 26, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Yup, that's pretty much how it happened! Okinawan karate isn't pure CMA but it's mostly Southern Chinese kung fu. Gichen Funakoshi wrote poetry as "Shoto" and hence the name.
> 
> There is at least Okinawan and Japanese Goju and the former is indeed softer but not by a great deal, I'd say--it's no longer overtly reminiscent of CMA but if you look more closely the roots are easy to see. There's also American Goju that's fairly popular.
> 
> *I prefer Okinawan karate to Japanese* as a rule, but that's a personal thing.



See, there's part of what I'm not getting. I've heard some say that Japanese Karate is more sport orientated, and less self defence orientated. Now. I'm not saying this is true, I've already confessed to being a novice, if it isn't the case, what are the main differences? Forgive me, I'm asking you to explain something that may well only be possible through experience.


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## arnisador (Jan 26, 2009)

It varies from style to style and instructor to instructor, but as a rule Japanese styles have deeper stances,  fewer open-hand techniques, strongly emphasize strikes, and are more linear with an emphasis on power and greater range; Okinawan styles have higher and more forward-facing stances, more open-hand techniques, have a greater emphasis on (limited) standing grappling techniques, and are more circular with a greater hard/soft balance and closer range. Okinawan styles often only use low kicks while Japanese styles may also include high kicks.

For me, I find the Okinawan arts more interesting because they retain more of the kung fu feel, and better for self-defense with the more mobile stances and closer range and basic grappling/locking. Others like the power and range of the Japanese styles.

Again, there are Japanese and Okinawan arts that are exceptions to what I've said above!


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## Hagakure (Jan 27, 2009)

arnisador said:


> It varies from style to style and instructor to instructor, but as a rule Japanese styles have deeper stances,  fewer open-hand techniques, strongly emphasize strikes, and are more linear with an emphasis on power and greater range; Okinawan styles have higher and more forward-facing stances, more open-hand techniques, have a greater emphasis on (limited) standing grappling techniques, and are more circular with a greater hard/soft balance and closer range. Okinawan styles often only use low kicks while Japanese styles may also include high kicks.
> 
> For me, I find the Okinawan arts more interesting because they retain more of the kung fu feel, and better for self-defense with the more mobile stances and closer range and basic grappling/locking. Others like the power and range of the Japanese styles.
> 
> Again, there are Japanese and Okinawan arts that are exceptions to what I've said above!



I see. I had an inkling that the differences would be along those lines, but wasn't sure. Gives me a real buzz learning something from new, the research, the start up. First class in the next week, hopefully by the end of the weekend.


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## twendkata71 (Jan 27, 2009)

the Goju aspects would complement your Wing chun training, the styles have similarities. My philosophy is learn what you can when you can. And learn as much as you can.


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## Hagakure (Jan 27, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> the Goju aspects would complement your Wing chun training, the styles have similarities. My philosophy is learn what you can when you can. And learn as much as you can.



A good philosophy I'd say. I'd honestly not thought about whether it'd complement the Wing Chun either. Wonder what similarities there'll be.


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## dancingalone (Jan 27, 2009)

Sticky hands is practiced much more (and likely on a more sophisticated level) within wing chun than goju-ryu karate.  I always enjoyed kakie practice in the dojo, and now that I am a teacher I expose even my kyu rank students to it.  An understanding of kakie is required before you can really hope to move onto the locking applications within karate.


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## Hagakure (Jan 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Sticky hands is practiced much more (and likely on a more sophisticated level) within wing chun than goju-ryu karate.  I always enjoyed kakie practice in the dojo, and now that I am a teacher I expose even my kyu rank students to it.  An understanding of kakie is required before you can really hope to move onto the locking applications within karate.



Kakie? Is that the equivalent of sticky hands within Goju Ryu? Sticky hands is a fantastic exercise/application I'd recommend if for all. 

I'm guessing the punching style within Wing Chun is going to be completely different to Karate. Will need to get used to that. :S


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## jarrod (Jan 27, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Kakie? Is that the equivalent of sticky hands within Goju Ryu? Sticky hands is a fantastic exercise/application I'd recommend if for all.
> 
> I'm guessing the punching style within Wing Chun is going to be completely different to Karate. Will need to get used to that. :S


 
sticky hands is my favorite drill from the handful of CMA that i dabbled in.  i make some of my grapplers do it if they are having a hard time learning to relax.  

i think okinawan goju made fairly frequent use of the vertical fist, so it may not be that different.

jf


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## AMP-RYU (Jan 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Sticky hands is practiced much more (and likely on a more sophisticated level) within wing chun than goju-ryu karate. I always enjoyed kakie practice in the dojo, and now that I am a teacher I expose even my kyu rank students to it. An understanding of kakie is required before you can really hope to move onto the locking applications within karate.


 
I teach youn wha style and we work on sticky hands quite often. It is good for hand eye cordination.


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## redantstyle (Jan 27, 2009)

i trained a few classes in Goju years ago.   i do remember it had what seemed like quite a bit of 'kung fu' in it, compared to other karate i had some exposure, specifically shotokan and isshinryu.

the Goju did have this slick little backfist to the groin with a knuckle sticking out, like a cma pheonix. 


regards.


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## Hagakure (Jan 28, 2009)

AMP RYU, 

Totally mate, sticky hands is great for hand-eye control/co-ordination. I'm getting a better idea of what to expect on an individual basis of both of these arts. What they'll be like combined, I can only imagine.

I saw a YT vid last night of full contact Shotokan competitions. Damn! Is all I can say. 

Looking forward to combining it with jujutsu and serious training. 

I've started doing weights again, and run a couple of times a week. Even started being sensible with the ol' diet. Not that I was crazy before, but it's all good. I "used" to do all of that, but have fallen back on a variety of excuses, some reasonable, others, less so over the last 18 months or so.

Roll on payday/training day!


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Kakie? Is that the equivalent of sticky hands within Goju Ryu? Sticky hands is a fantastic exercise/application I'd recommend if for all.
> 
> I'm guessing the punching style within Wing Chun is going to be completely different to Karate. Will need to get used to that. :S



You've got it.  One of the best ways to tell if you're in a sport Goju school or not is how frequent kakie drills are practiced.  If they occur seldomly or never, you just might be in a sport karate dojo.

Goju-ryu uses the rollover horizonal fist with the two top knuckles for striking.  Wing chun seems to favor the vertical fist and frequently the bottom two knuckles are the striking surfaces.


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i think okinawan goju made fairly frequent use of the vertical fist, so it may not be that different.
> jf



The vertical fist is not unknown in Okinawan goju, but it's much more a hallmark of isshin-ryu karate.  The more conventional horizontal fist is much more common in kihon practice.


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## Hagakure (Jan 28, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You've got it. One of the best ways to tell if you're in a sport Goju school or not is how frequent kakie drills are practiced. If they occur seldomly or never, you just might be in a sport karate dojo.
> 
> *Goju-ryu uses the rollover horizonal fist with the two top knuckles for striking. Wing chun seems to favor the vertical fist and frequently the bottom two knuckles are the striking surfaces*.


 
This is quite correct, and something I've become very used to. Ah well, I heard someone once say "a punch is just a punch".  

The class as far as I'm aware seems to cover all the bases, SD, kata, sparring, physical enhancement etc, but I don't yet know about the kakie content. Guess I'll find out in due course though.


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## hungfistron (Jan 29, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> See, there's part of what I'm not getting. I've heard some say that Japanese Karate is more sport orientated, and less self defence orientated. Now. I'm not saying this is true, I've already confessed to being a novice, if it isn't the case, what are the main differences? Forgive me, I'm asking you to explain something that may well only be possible through experience.




Originally Karate or Karatedo was not sport related. Earlier there was a timeline made in this forum that points this out. 


If you didn't see this time line here it is...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64998


And also here is the orgin of Karate from both the official Shotokan and the Shotokai websites. Its best for you to hear this from them, that way you will be clear on this.

_----------------------------------------------------------------------_



> [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]*1949* _Isao Obata_ establishes the *Nihon Karate Kyokai*, as a means to help        _Master Funakoshi_ in the development of Karate-do. Even though initially the idea was that the association should include all groups, this did not occur. Neither did all of _Gichin Funakoshi's_ students become part of it,        for example _Shigeru Egami_ and _Genshin Hironishi_[/FONT]      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]By        the end of the 40's and the beginning of the 50's strong friction arises        within the NKK due to the *commercialization *(fighting sporting events) of Karate-do.
> 
> 
> The great masters        cut links with the NKK, that finally ends up in the hands of the Takushoku        University.[/FONT]      [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Courier New]In 1951 Shotokai reunites, and the association formalizes its existence as an association in 1956. Founders: Gichin Funakoshi, Shigeru Egami and Genshin Hironishi. Objective: to preserve the true Karate-do, _without considering it a sport_.[/FONT]
> ...


That being shown, most people associate Karate with sport now adays, because of what the majority of what the art has become. But that doesn't mean that its the way it began, or how *Funakoshi* believed it should be.

Anyways good luck with your training!


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## Aefibird (Feb 3, 2009)

Having trained in the past in a Shotokan/Goju hybrid and also in Wing Chun, the Goju elements of your new school will fit nicely with previous Wing Chun training. The Shotokan elements may take more getting used to, but the combination of the close in nature of Goju and the power and striking range of Shotokan make a great combo IMO and give you another tool in the arsenal. It should also fit in nicely with the Ju Jitsu that you are training in.

Good luck with the training! Hope you enjoy your first Karate class.


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## searcher (Feb 3, 2009)

hungfistron- the problem with the other thread you referred to is that it does not give credit to the Okinawan masters that were training and teaching karate.   Though Shotokan is a fine style, it is not "original" karate.   Shotokan is the altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids.


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## hungfistron (Feb 3, 2009)

> hungfistron- the problem with the other thread you referred to is that it does not give credit to the Okinawan masters that were training and teaching karate. Though Shotokan is a fine style, it is not "original" karate. Shotokan is the altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids.



Sorry I didn't see this post earlier I would have responded sooner. 

Just wanted to clear up a few things that where mentioned in your post Searcher.  The timeline that was created was for The _History of Karatedo_, there was never any mentioning of it being the original style, or form of Karate. If it were not for Funakoshi learning from the great masters of Okinawan karate (_Master Azato, Master Yasutsune_), Karatedo would have not have came to be. Also I did respond to your statement on the timeline of Karatedo, you are welcome to help with the timeline, as well as anyone else.


As far as Shotokan being an altered version that Funakoshi used to teach PE classes to Japanese school kids... I believe you are refering to the *Stalwart Youth System*.  This is a very important fabric of Japanese culture during those times, and is now.  It teaches kids etiquette through Confucianism. Compassion, through Daoism respect for yourself and those around you. Various skills or proffessions, such as architecture, business, science, etc.  

What Funakoshi, who was a proffessor taught in the school was spirituallity through Karatedo. And the physical application of the study.


The Japanese kids that you refer to where _adults, college students_.

_
Judo founder Jigoro Kano was so impressed with Gichin Funakoshi's karate that he asked for, and received, private karate lessons from Funakoshi for several months. Taking up residence at a dormitory for Okinawan students at Keio University, Funakoshi began teaching karate in the dorm's lecture hall. _



_Funakoshi became a subject of some controversy only a few years after relocating to Tokyo. For centuries, karate had been written two different ways in Japanese. One way used the characters for "Chinese hands," and the other used the characters for "empty hands." Although both were pronounced "karate," they were written differently. Funakoshi agreed with the obvious historical allusion in the "Chinese hands" characters, but he felt that the use of "empty hands" not only emphasized the art of self-defense without weapons, but also characterized the sense of emptying one's heart and mind of earthly desires and vanity. 



_Some of these "kids" as you put it could have developed  formidable practioners of Shotokan Karatedo. Sadly many of them would die in the great earthquake that occured in 1923. 


Now after the great quake....

_In 1923, a massive earthquake shook Japan, and Tokyo was razed in the ensuing fire. Although the dormitory Funakoshi called home and still taught out of was spared, many of his students died or disappeared. For a short time he suspended his instruction and spent the next several months assisting in the massive cleanup. 

Funakoshi's next major task was the creation of an all-new dojo (training hall). Because he had a difficult time raising funds, the building was not started until 1935. A year later, the world's first freestanding karate dojo was completed. Funakoshi named the school "shotokan" (the house of Shoto) after the pen name he used when writing poetry. When he stepped through the doors for the first time, he was almost 70 years old. 

As he became increasingly busy with his dojo, Funakoshi began handing over his teaching assignments at the various universities to his students. He still conducted demonstrations, however, including regular performances before Emperor Hirohito, who invited him to the Imperial Palace on an annual basis.  _ 


So my question to you would be are you talking about the _college_ _students_, who were not kids that he taught before the earthquake, or the  _college_ _students_, who were not kids that where taught by him after the earthquake? In any case your statement was very disrepectful on several different levels. 

Then again maybe you had no idea, so since we are all entitled to our own views here, lets do our best at just being polite.


*
References...
Stalwart Youth System* - _Zen and Japanese Culture & The book of the 5 Rings

http://www.fightingmaster.com
http://www.shotokankarate.ca_


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## chinto (Feb 6, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've studied a variety of MA in the past, Wing Chun, Ju jutsu, but never Karate. There's a class not too far from me, the Sensai seems to be a nice guy, helpful, informative, the classes seem to contain a mix of kata, sparring and then a combination of them in a self defence capacity. With all MA, I'm interested in their traditions and the little gems that one can use to get out of a scrape, or better yet, avoiding getting into one in the first place.
> 
> ...


OK shotokan came about when Gojin funikoshi took the training in Okinawan shuri-te/ shorin ryu  he got from master Anku  Itosu and modified it to fit the japanese sensibilitys better.  he deepend the stances and widened them, and made it a lot more liner.   

Goju ryu came from Kanryo Higonna who took the Okinawan te systems of naha and mixed them with some chinese systems he studied for about 20 years in china ( believed to be the systems of RYU RYO KO RU RU  and provably RU RU KO .. all systems from Fuchou  china.  the name goju ryu came from  chogin Miyagi who was the one who took over shorei ryu ( Higonna's system) on his death, and when asked in the 1930's what its name was said " goju"  meaning hard/soft.

but the systems both have Chinese and Okinawan influince on them with Japanese added to the shotokan.


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## searcher (Feb 6, 2009)

Kanryo got some of his training from Seisho Aragaki and they both called their style Shorei-ryu(which is a dead style now).    You can see the original techniques in several styles, including Goju-ryu, Isshinryu, Chito-ryu, Shotokan, Wado-ryu, and Shito-ryu, just to name a few.


Just thoguht I would add this to the discussion.


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