# Regarding the future of TKD



## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2011)

Does one really need to know the past to unite Tae Kwon Do for the future? I was just talking to some people and they feel as well as I that the past maybe what is truely stoping the actual growth of TKD to be unified. I am not sure if it is true but I have to agree with them that it seems if we cannot bring the founding fathers together how can we bring the young people to relize this dream of unification.


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## dancingalone (Jan 25, 2011)

Why do we talk so much about 'unification'?  Is this sort of like missionaries converting the savages?


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## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Why do we talk so much about 'unification'? Is this sort of like missionaries converting the savages?


 
I do not know but I have been hearing alot of this lately, even at the tournament this past weekend certain people was talking about it. So I believe it is in the eyes of alot of people and they believe it can be done.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 25, 2011)

As Ive said before, I believe tkd has became too broad a term to have the art 'united'. There are many forms of karate or kung fu and I would imagine tkd will go the same way. Sport tkd clubs would not want to teach what we learn where I train and vice versa. They are both 'real' tkd, neither is more correct in what they teach and both would have very respected and knowledgable masters with years of tkd experience but the end result is so different. I really hope we can go the way of these other arts and have different names for the different 'types' of tkd, if for no other reason than to help the general public better understand tkd. People start tkd for a variety of reasons and different tkd clubs offer such a different take on tkd, so it makes it very hard for a potential client who simply looks up "tkd" in the yellow pages. What sort of tkd they will get and whether it will suit what they are looking for is becoming a lottery.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 25, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Does one really need to know the past to unite Tae Kwon Do for the future? I was just talking to some people and they feel as well as I that the past maybe what is truely stoping the actual growth of TKD to be unified. I am not sure if it is true but I have to agree with them that it seems if we cannot bring the founding fathers together how can we bring the young people to relize this dream of unification.


Great points. I think you hit it on the nail, the past is haunting the present!

Now this is only my opinion:
Since TKD's past is troublesome on some level for some people & TKD's history is clouded & controversial, I respectfully suggest that before one can move forward, they have to deal with the past.
For instance, we have to more fully understand what happened, when & where did it happen & who made it happen.
Then we have to try to understand the context of the times that all of the above was taking place in, as it impacted what happened, how it was recorded & the lives of the people involved.
Once this happens, more will understand some of the confusion & can start to sort it all out. When they do that, they will see the common roots & the paths taken away from those roots. It then will become easier to see that all the fighting was for naught, as there was more than 1 path of development & more than 1 person who developed TKD.

Then maybe we can get past all the nonsense, let the dust settle, clean of the dust from ourselves & our fellow TKDin's back, as their arms & hands can't reach back there. Once we clean off their dust, they can clean our backs. We both can clean our hands, shake each others hands, sit down & eat some kimchee & drink some OB & soju, while we are waiting for the galbi & boolgogi to cook on the Korean BBQ!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 25, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I do not know but I have been hearing alot of this lately, even at the tournament this past weekend certain people was talking about it. So I believe it is in the eyes of alot of people and they believe it can be done.


I would guess that more people are becoming aware of the history & the nonsense that no longer exists in a free Korea. They also very clearly realize that it was not their fight, so why continue, especially when we see that there should never have been the fighting.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 26, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> As Ive said before, I believe tkd has became too broad a term to have the art 'united'.


While this in some ways can be beneficial, it also is a major obstacle to any unification.
Maybe if the KKW became more like a university, with different colleges or departments under it, sport, SD, WTF, ITF, Kukki, Indie, Chang Hon Tuls, Taeguek Poomsae, Palgwe or PeIan forms, etc.

One could get a degree (Dan) in TKD, but have a major & even a minor concentration in their education & training listed as well. Subsequent TKD degrees can add new subjects or areas of focus.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> While this in some ways can be beneficial, it also is a major obstacle to any unification.
> Maybe if the KKW became more like a university, with different colleges or departments under it, sport, SD, WTF, ITF, Kukki, Indie, Chang Hon Tuls, Taeguek Poomsae, Palgwe or PeIan forms, etc.
> 
> One could get a degree (Dan) in TKD, but have a major & even a minor concentration in their education & training listed as well. Subsequent TKD degrees can add new subjects or areas of focus.


something like that would be a good idea, sort of having all 'types' of tkd under the one roof. It could be a logistical nightmare, but the idea sure has merit.


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## dancingalone (Jan 26, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> something like that would be a good idea, sort of having all 'types' of tkd under the one roof. It could be a logistical nightmare, but the idea sure has merit.



<shrugs>  The University of Texas at Austin along with Texas A&M University have two of the top petroleum engineering departments in the world.  Yet they are distinctly different organizations and are competitive rivals in some respects.

No need for everything to be under one roof.  What synergy might be gained can also be as easily lost through internecine politics.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Since TKD's past is troublesome on some level for some people & TKD's history is clouded & controversial




Taekwondo's past is only troublesome and Taekwondo history is only clouded and controversial if you attempt to blend in General Choi's claims and lies with what actually happened. I have a very clear picture of Taekwondo's past, which is not clouded or controversial. It is a very inspiring story, one of unity and cooperation.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> One could get a degree (Dan) in TKD, but have a major & even a minor concentration in their education & training listed as well. Subsequent TKD degrees can add new subjects or areas of focus.




We already have that. If you wish to be an athlete, you train under a competent instructor. If you want to be an instructor, you take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. If you wish to be a referee, you take the International Referee course. If you want to work on self defense primarily, no one will stop you. If you wish to get into the sports medicine or athletic training aspects, you can do that, and then write your high dan thesis on these areas. The only limits in Taekwondo are the limits you place on yourself.


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## leadleg (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> We already have that. If you wish to be an athlete, you train under a competent instructor. If you want to be an instructor, you take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. If you wish to be a referee, you take the International Referee course. If you want to work on self defense primarily, no one will stop you. If you wish to get into the sports medicine or athletic training aspects, you can do that, and then write your high dan thesis on these areas. The only limits in Taekwondo are the limits you place on yourself.


 Hmmmm, I like this and agree 110 percent!


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## leadleg (Jan 26, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Why do we talk so much about 'unification'? Is this sort of like missionaries converting the *savages*?


 Running around barefoot,in pajama's, yelling gutteral kihaps,kicking and punching at all types targets,trying to knock each other out and laughing about it. Throwing one another to the floor,twisting till they stand on their tippy toes slapping their sides with wide eyed grimaces, giving applause for said pain.............could be savage.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 26, 2011)

The only way you will get complete unification is if everyone joins the kukkiwon, but that will never happen so there will always be 'factions'.


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## leadleg (Jan 26, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The only way you will get complete unification is if everyone joins the kukkiwon, but that will never happen so there will always be 'factions'.


 Do you think that at some point clubs may have to be liscened by tho gov't, I do.

 If they ever are I could see a lot of people looking to an organisation for liscensing, the KKW may be the most reliable and easiest to aquire. 
Wait you are from Australia,perhaps that will not be an issue there.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 26, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Do you think that at some point clubs may have to be liscened by tho gov't, I do.


 
Why would you think the government will require schools to be "licensed"? And what do you think that would entail?

Pax,

Chris


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The only way you will get complete unification is if everyone joins the kukkiwon, but that will never happen so there will always be 'factions'.




Yeah, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Nothing would get done if all objections had to first be overcome. In your case, you are semi already there. What is the harm in getting that Kukkiwon certification? You may not think you need it now, but who knows what the future holds. I can tell you terrible tale of woe after tale of friends of mine who did not think that Kukkiwon certification was important way back when, but now they realize they wish they got it way back when. I have a friend I have been trying to promote to Kukkiwon dan for over twenty years, and then all of a sudden he wanted it a couple of years ago, mainly so he can promote his students. I had to start him off at 1st Dan, he is 2nd Dan now, and next year he will be 3rd.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yeah, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Nothing would get done if all objections had to first be overcome. In your case, you are semi already there. What is the harm in getting that Kukkiwon certification? You may not think you need it now, but who knows what the future holds. I can tell you terrible tale of woe after tale of friends of mine who did not think that Kukkiwon certification was important way back when, but now they realize they wish they got it way back when. I have a friend I have been trying to promote to Kukkiwon dan for over twenty years, and then all of a sudden he wanted it a couple of years ago, mainly so he can promote his students. I had to start him off at 1st Dan, he is 2nd Dan now, and next year he will be 3rd.


I think the main reason I have not gone and got a kukkiwon cert is because I dont believe that what I do is closely related enough to the kukki curriculum. After watching local clubs train/demo who are kukki affiliated it just reiterates my belief that I would be very out of my depth at a kukki club. We spar differently, our forms are different, our stances look different and so forth. If, for some reason my club, or the other 2 local clubs who are non affiliated ceased to exist tomorrow (and there is a better chance of pigs flying when I awake tomorrow), I really think I would probably persue a different art and Id be happy to put on the white belt and start over. I think I would probably start in hapkido as it looks like a lot of fun to me and a lot of it seems very similar to what we do in parts and would seem like a logical progression from what I do currently. I think I would really struggle physically to go and start at a kukki club and start learning taegeks and olympic style sparring etc. If just my club vanished tomorrow I would go and join one of the other independent "old school" clubs as their curriculum is very similar to ours and they would start me at my current rank providing I did the palgwes, some sparring, self defence, timber breaking etc. I did give thought at one point to getting a kukki cert but for me it really serves no purpose as its a certification for something I cant/dont do.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the main reason I have not gone and got a kukkiwon cert is because I dont believe that what I do is closely related enough to the kukki curriculum.




That, in my opinion, is not a sufficient reason not to get Kukkiwon certification. Again, you never know how your interests will change. And they will change, believe me. And if they don't change, then that means you are not really growing, if you are thinking the same thoughts that you are today. Think about when you were five years old. Are you still thinking the same thoughts as you were back then? Are your priorities the same? It's up to you, but for me, better safe than sorry. Throw it in the closet if you don't want to look at it, but at least it is there, in case your thinking changes in the future.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> That, in my opinion, is not a sufficient reason not to get Kukkiwon certification. Again, you never know how your interests will change. And they will change, believe me. And if they don't change, then that means you are not really growing, if you are thinking the same thoughts that you are today. Think about when you were five years old. Are you still thinking the same thoughts as you were back then? Are your priorities the same? It's up to you, but for me, better safe than sorry. Throw it in the closet if you don't want to look at it, but at least it is there, in case your thinking changes in the future.


I agree wholeheartedly, and I am one for changing my mind regularly(just ask any of my mates), BUT, I still think if I woke up tomorrow and thought "you know what, I really want to get into kukki tkd, it looks like a lot of fun", I would be better off joining a kukki club, donning the white belt and learning the curriculum from ground up. My current black belt has about as much relevence to kukki tkd as it does to BJJ, they are chalk and cheese. I would be embarrassed to walk into a kukki club in a black belt because when it comes to kukki tkd I am a complete newbie and should start all over. Probably the time it would take me to learn the taegeks and adjust to their sparring and techs etc would be the same amount of time it would take to just start over and get a black belt from scratch. Its the exact reason that when kukki black belts come to our club they start at white belt.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

One question: If you wanted to obtain a Kukkiwon 1st Dan, how much would your organization charge you for it?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 27, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Does one really need to know the past to unite Tae Kwon Do for the future? I was just talking to some people and they feel as well as I that the past maybe what is truely stoping the actual growth of TKD to be unified. I am not sure if it is true but I have to agree with them that it seems if we cannot bring the founding fathers together how can we bring the young people to relize this dream of unification.


In another thread on the same subject, I stated that it depends upon the type of unity that you want.  There is organizational unity and unity within the art.

With organizational unity, the issue at this point is not past history.  The issue is at this point that the worms are out of the can with regards to multiple federations and independents.  

Once each grouip or individual has staked out their territory and brought others into it, they become the monarch/oligarchy at the top, it is virtually guaranteed that they will never give that up.

Unity within the art would be more attainable.  For that, taekwondo becomes a martial art (mudo or muye) with multiple yus (ryus) within, kind of like karate or hapkido, each of which share enough common characteristics, technical aspects, and lineage to be considered 'taekwondo.'

As to which type of unity is more desireable, it would depend on who you ask.

Daniel


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## Kacey (Jan 27, 2011)

There is more than one national or international organization for many sports, sciences, businesses, etc.  How is the diversity in TKD different, and more in need of unification?

As a separate issue from unification, cooperation is, IMHO, a goal to be worked toward - I see many benefits from cooperating with other TKD organizations, and few, if any, negatives.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> Taekwondo's past is only troublesome and Taekwondo history is only clouded and controversial if you attempt to blend in General Choi's claims and lies with what actually happened. I have a very clear picture of Taekwondo's past, which is not clouded or controversial. It is a very inspiring story, one of unity and cooperation.


Yes & so do I. I do share with you for the most part, much of what you have posted. There is little doubt about that. But if the future of TKD is going to be 1 of unity or more cooperation I think that instead of ignoring or putting down the other side(s), acknowledge what they have done & welcome them into the larger family.
But I know that this will probably not happen, for some sad, obvious reasons.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> We already have that. If you wish to be an athlete, you train under a competent instructor. If you want to be an instructor, you take the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. If you wish to be a referee, you take the International Referee course. If you want to work on self defense primarily, no one will stop you. If you wish to get into the sports medicine or athletic training aspects, you can do that, and then write your high dan thesis on these areas. The only limits in Taekwondo are the limits you place on yourself.


Yes I do realize that this is the case already in any TKD group. However what I was saying was that under the world TKD academy, there would be separate departments or branches that would also include different sets of patterns & different styles of TKD, where any TKDin can cross train, supplement their own knowledge by expanding their own base & have greater opportunity to attend other events that they may not have before, which can only help individuals grow.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The only way you will get complete unification is if everyone joins the kukkiwon, but that will never happen so there will always be 'factions'.


Unless all the factions can come into the KKW & operate with them, under their umbrella.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Do you think that at some point clubs may have to be liscened by tho gov't, I do.
> If they ever are I could see a lot of people looking to an organisation for liscensing, the KKW may be the most reliable and easiest to aquire.
> Wait you are from Australia,perhaps that will not be an issue there.


I think this is already the case in some places, like south Korea, where 1 must be licensed by the KKWto open a TKD dojang. However in other countries I think licensing will be more in line with solving problems caused in the locations by a lack of license, ie:
no bonding or insurance in case of accident or school closing in the middle of the night
no 1st aid training, cpr etc
lack of physical science education
lack of academic methods of instruction or teacher education
criminal background screening
safety for children & safe place for children

I am not sure that any govt entity will look to an outside the country organization to license locals. They may require & should, legitimate certification from the sport, art, discipline or physical activity that 1 is going to teach & the KKW would address that aspect.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yeah, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Nothing would get done if all objections had to first be overcome. In your case, you are semi already there. What is the harm in getting that Kukkiwon certification? You may not think you need it now, but who knows what the future holds. I can tell you terrible tale of woe after tale of friends of mine who did not think that Kukkiwon certification was important way back when, but now they realize they wish they got it way back when. I have a friend I have been trying to promote to Kukkiwon dan for over twenty years, and then all of a sudden he wanted it a couple of years ago, mainly so he can promote his students. I had to start him off at 1st Dan, he is 2nd Dan now, and next year he will be 3rd.


Yes I agree again, we should try. But shouldn't the trying be on all sides? Shouldn't part of the trying be to accommodate the many who never followed the KKW system? And if people are to be welcomed, they should be embraced in my opinion, their background & training should be respected  & incorporated. Unification or closer cooperation & working together may never happen, but it is not impossible. It would just have to take time, appreciation & understanding by everyone, along with sections that will appeal to them.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think the main reason I have not gone and got a kukkiwon cert is because I dont believe that what I do is closely related enough to the kukki curriculum. After watching local clubs train/demo who are kukki affiliated it just reiterates my belief that I would be very out of my depth at a kukki club. We spar differently, our forms are different, our stances look different and so forth. If, for some reason my club, or the other 2 local clubs who are non affiliated ceased to exist tomorrow (and there is a better chance of pigs flying when I awake tomorrow), I really think I would probably persue a different art and Id be happy to put on the white belt and start over. I think I would probably start in hapkido as it looks like a lot of fun to me and a lot of it seems very similar to what we do in parts and would seem like a logical progression from what I do currently. I think I would really struggle physically to go and start at a kukki club and start learning taegeks and olympic style sparring etc. If just my club vanished tomorrow I would go and join one of the other independent "old school" clubs as their curriculum is very similar to ours and they would start me at my current rank providing I did the palgwes, some sparring, self defence, timber breaking etc. I did give thought at one point to getting a kukki cert but for me it really serves no purpose as its a certification for something I cant/dont do.


Yes these are legitimate feelings & good points. But unification or closer cooperation could work, if there were additional branches that will help all TKDin to grow & expand. If it was under the 1 roof of the KKW, it would not only be a 1 stop shopping, but a place to go to experiment & expand with the other branches. If this happened, more would see the things we have in common, then feel excited with the opportunity to learn more, share with new friends & expand one's base.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> That, in my opinion, is not a sufficient reason not to get Kukkiwon certification. Again, you never know how your interests will change. And they will change, believe me. And if they don't change, then that means you are not really growing, if you are thinking the same thoughts that you are today. Think about when you were five years old. Are you still thinking the same thoughts as you were back then? Are your priorities the same? It's up to you, but for me, better safe than sorry. Throw it in the closet if you don't want to look at it, but at least it is there, in case your thinking changes in the future.


Yes & this is exactly a benefit of working together & across lines set up by others. I love when I hear stories about how excited students get when they learn new material, have additional perspectives, exposures & experiences introduced to them. This is the key or a main 1 to say the least, great point!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree wholeheartedly, and I am one for changing my mind regularly(just ask any of my mates), BUT, I still think if I woke up tomorrow and thought "you know what, I really want to get into kukki tkd, it looks like a lot of fun", I would be better off joining a kukki club, donning the white belt and learning the curriculum from ground up. My current black belt has about as much relevence to kukki tkd as it does to BJJ, they are chalk and cheese. I would be embarrassed to walk into a kukki club in a black belt because when it comes to kukki tkd I am a complete newbie and should start all over. Probably the time it would take me to learn the taegeks and adjust to their sparring and techs etc would be the same amount of time it would take to just start over and get a black belt from scratch. Its the exact reason that when kukki black belts come to our club they start at white belt.


Yes & that is an admirable way to look at it & a bonafide way to pursue it. I think you may be surprised to see that we all have things in common, both physically & other. There would be nothing to prevent someone from starting over, if that is what they feel would work best for them. But a KKW that embraced all, would be a great start & 1 stop shopping!


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In another thread on the same subject, I stated that it depends upon the type of unity that you want.  There is organizational unity and unity within the art.
> With organizational unity, the issue at this point is not past history.  The issue is at this point that the worms are out of the can with regards to multiple federations and independents.
> Once each grouip or individual has staked out their territory and brought others into it, they become the monarch/oligarchy at the top, it is virtually guaranteed that they will never give that up.
> Unity within the art would be more attainable.  For that, taekwondo becomes a martial art (mudo or muye) with multiple yus (ryus) within, kind of like karate or hapkido, each of which share enough common characteristics, technical aspects, and lineage to be considered 'taekwondo.'
> ...


Excellent! History is not a problem & may be the easiest to solve, once we include the common starting point & all the paths of development taken from the early kwan years. That is the least of the problem, solved by the stroke of the pen & the taping on letter keys.
If the KKW were to expand & embrace all, with various departments, there would not only be plenty of room for all, but the petty organizations would eventually die out if they did not see the vision, the writing on the wall & work with the world TKD academy.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 27, 2011)

Kacey said:


> There is more than one national or international organization for many sports, sciences, businesses, etc.  How is the diversity in TKD different, and more in need of unification?
> As a separate issue from unification, cooperation is, IMHO, a goal to be worked toward - I see many benefits from cooperating with other TKD organizations, and few, if any, negatives.


Absolutely! Cooperation is the necessary step before any possible hope of unification. I also respectfully suggest that in order for cooperation to begin, groups looking to cooperate, must feel welcomed & what they bring to the table must be embraced. If not, it really is not cooperation or unification, but an absorption, don't you think?


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes & so do I. I do share with you for the most part, much of what you have posted. There is little doubt about that. But if the future of TKD is going to be 1 of unity or more cooperation I think that instead of ignoring or putting down the other side(s), acknowledge what they have done & welcome them into the larger family. But I know that this will probably not happen, for some sad, obvious reasons.




So what is your solution George, create or support a Taekwondo Hall of Fame and give everyone plaques? 

Mr. Vitale, I do not believe you have a clear picture of Taekwondo's history. I say that because whenever I read your rambling posts which say basically the same thing over and over about original this, 7 koreans, 6 kwans, nasty korean politics, and all the rest, I feel myself getting mired and muddle within the confusion of your thoughts. And again, no one is ignoring anyone, they have been acknowledged, and have been welcomed in, since the beginning, a point you consistently ignore.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> However what I was saying was that under the world TKD academy, there would be separate departments or branches that would also include different sets of patterns & different styles of TKD, where any TKDin can cross train, supplement their own knowledge by expanding their own base & have greater opportunity to attend other events that they may not have before, which can only help individuals grow.




George, did you raise this issue with GM UHM Woon Kyu when you visited him at the Kukkiwon when he was president? If so, what were his comments on that subject? 

Mr. Vitale, the idea was considered and rejected when the KTA committee (which included the Kwan Jang of the Oh Do Kwan at the time) created the unified poomsae. So the Chang Hon tul were represented and accounted for by the Oh Do Kwan's contribution and input. If you want to hang on to your precious tul, then no one is stopping you. Go teach them to your students at the Original Taekwon-Do dojang if you want. But that doesn't mean that the Kukkiwon has to open up a "Department of Chang Hon tul" in their facility. If anything, the Kukkiwon is streamlining the poomsae by eliminating the Palgwae poomsae altogether. The official poomsae are getting cut, so why should we open up the floodgates and recognize every form created by every private organization under the sun? What next, should astronomy departments in universities start offering up courses in biblical creationism as well?


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I agree again, we should try. But shouldn't the trying be on all sides? Shouldn't part of the trying be to accommodate the many who never followed the KKW system? And if people are to be welcomed, they should be embraced in my opinion, their background & training should be respected  & incorporated. Unification or closer cooperation & working together may never happen, but it is not impossible. It would just have to take time, appreciation & understanding by everyone, along with sections that will appeal to them.




Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid. 

Everyone is welcome into Kukki Taekwondo. If you wish to come in, we can talk about it. But if you are going to show up making radical demands which require wholesale policy changes, then that's ok. In that case, don't join. We can wait a generation or two when your students or grand students show interest in being part of the larger more connected world. At that point, the ITF students will have no personal connection to General Choi, and the switch will be that much more easier for them, if not for you. 

Put another way, the ITF is like the Titanic that hit the iceberg and is going down. Some passengers have banded together in their lifeboats, and will do ok. Others are treading water. Along comes another ship the size of a nuclear aircraft carrier called the USS Kukkiwon and they are willing to pick up as many passengers from the USS ITF as possible. How willing do you think the captain of the Kukkiwon is going to be if one of the people treading water makes all kinds of demands to change ship protocol and procedure before the aircraft carrier can have the privilege of taking him aboard? If you don't want the nuclear aircraft carrier to pick you up, then fine, stay in the water, or in your NK ITF life boat. The nuclear aircraft carrier will be fine without you and your input regarding procedures on a ship that sunk because its founding captain threw his son overboard and steered the ship into a north korean iceberg.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 27, 2011)

puunui said:


> One question: If you wanted to obtain a Kukkiwon 1st Dan, how much would your organization charge you for it?


Without actually knowing for sure, I doubt they would charge any more than what it costs them. They dont really profit much at all out of the 'extras'. Our GM gets all our belts, uniforms, kicking pads etc from his contacts in korea and sells them to us cheaper or the same price as we could get them here. Our training fees and grading fees are extremely competitively priced and our GM has never been driven by making a profit. I know he used to give out kukki certs back in the day and from what Ive been told the cost was minimal.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 27, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes & that is an admirable way to look at it & a bonafide way to pursue it. I think you may be surprised to see that we all have things in common, both physically & other. There would be nothing to prevent someone from starting over, if that is what they feel would work best for them. But a KKW that embraced all, would be a great start & 1 stop shopping!


Exactly. I have never been driven by rank or belts. I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt? When people say "but dont you want to be able to keep your black belt even if you had to go to another club?" , it makes no sense to me. If I went to another club with a different curriculum and a different way of doing things Id be the first to put on a white belt and jump to the end of the line and start learning from scratch. This is why I have not been concerned about not having a kukki cert.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Exactly. I have never been driven by rank or belts. I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt?



As a first degree black belt, if you think you know what's best for you, then don't get it. No one is forcing you. Back when I was a first dan, I had no idea what was or wasn't important.  More power to you. But whatever happens in the future, you cannot say that you weren't told or encouraged. And if you are ok with that, then that's the end of the discussion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> As a first degree black belt, if you think you know what's best for you, then don't get it. No one is forcing you. Back when I was a first dan, I had no idea what was or wasn't important.  More power to you. But whatever happens in the future, you cannot say that you weren't told or encouraged. And if you are ok with that, then that's the end of the discussion.


To be honest, if our curriculum was similar to kukki (same forms etc) then I probably would get the cert just to be on the safe side, but considering I dont know the kukki curriculum it really is of little use to me.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> The official poomsae are getting cut, so why should we open up the floodgates and recognize every form created by every private organization under the sun? What next, should astronomy departments in universities start offering up courses in biblical creationism as well?


Well I guess leaders have to decide what they want. Do they want unification of TKD or absorption of the non Kukki TKD into the KKW.
Correct me if I am wrong, but any non Kukki TKD could have always joined the KKW & followed their methods, rules, etc. right?
So it seems that you may be advocating not a joining together or unification, unifying, but simply allowing outsiders in, so they can do what the KKW is doing. That is fine, as that option seemed to always be there, but I don't know if that is unification.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid.
> 
> Everyone is welcome into Kukki Taekwondo. If you wish to come in, we can talk about it. But if you are going to show up making radical demands which require wholesale policy changes, then that's ok. In that case, don't join. We can wait a generation or two when your students or grand students show interest in being part of the larger more connected world. At that point, the ITF students will have no personal connection to General Choi, and the switch will be that much more easier for them, if not for you.


Yes there was of course several unification efforts in the past, with the most successful one being the one signed in Aug of 1978. However I am not talking about the ITF, but all non Kukki TKD. There is no doubt that the Kukki TKD is tops. But even many that are Kukki TKD think they are WTF TKD. I think with the current schism that was developing between the WTF & KKW will hopefully be sorted out. I also think that the new leadership may be more open to making their umbrella stretch out even wider. I am not so sure if they are as hard line as the pioneers that set it up are & maybe you are.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I am a first degree black belt under my GM's system, not the kukki system so why would I want a kukki black belt?


I again agree with Puunui, especially if you are a I Dan. You can have the best of both worlds. Have them process your paperwork, hopefully preserving your actual test date. They you will continue to have & be proud to hold your GM's certificate, but also have an official KKW one as well. You will not only be in the driver's seat, but have so many roads open to you to travel down, even if you don't see them now or see no need for them now.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I again agree with Puunui, especially if you are a I Dan. You can have the best of both worlds. Have them process your paperwork, hopefully preserving your actual test date. They you will continue to have & be proud to hold your GM's certificate, but also have an official KKW one as well. You will not only be in the driver's seat, but have so many roads open to you to travel down, even if you don't see them now or see no need for them now.


I appreciate where you are coming from,but I would almost feel like I had a 'fake' qualification. It would be like if someone got me medical degree in my name without me actually knowing the first thing about medicine. I may have the qualification but in real terms is would be of little use because I couldnt go and work as a doctor. Thats how I feel about getting a kukki cert. I may have the piece of paper neatly framed hanging on my wall, but if I dont know the stuff it would be of little use to me in real terms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Excellent! History is not a problem & may be the easiest to solve, once we include the common starting point & all the paths of development taken from the early kwan years. That is the least of the problem, solved by the stroke of the pen & the taping on letter keys.
> If the KKW were to expand & embrace all, with various departments, there would not only be plenty of room for all, but the petty organizations would eventually die out if they did not see the vision, the writing on the wall & work with the world TKD academy.


Once again, you take it back to history.

Look, would it be cool if the KKW had Chang Hon and Songahm departments? Sure. Is it needed? No. Each of those yu have their own established organization or are represented by many independents. The majority of independents that I see are doing Chang Hon, at least in the states. Why give up what they have? The answer is that they won't.

Look, you need to just say, "The ITF and Chang Hon system was founded by General Choi and his followers who chose to go a different direction from that of the other kwans that eventually united into the Kukkiwon. Both groups have a common root but have gone in different directions" and then leave it at that and stop demanding recognition from the group that the ITF split from. Not going to happen, and frankly, there is no valid reason why it should.

As for the future of the art, the biggest thing hurting the art right now (in my opinion) is rampant commercialism coupled with low quality in a large number of schools (not most, but the bad always get more attention than the good). 

This is not unique to taekwondo, by the way, but I do believe that it has hit taekwondo the hardest, primarily because its popularity made it a target for entrepreneuers with more business sense than taekwondo training and for school owners who essentially sold out for cash.  The economy tanking isn't helping, but that is an external factor.

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 28, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Look, would it be cool if the KKW had Chang Hon and Songahm departments? Sure. Is it needed? No. Each of those yu have their own established organization or are represented by many independents. The majority of independents that I see are doing Chang Hon, at least in the states. Why give up what they have? The answer is that they won't.


Yes you are right, but I guess there is nothing too wrong with dreaming, as well as you don't lose sight of reality, but your statement is realistic.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Look, you need to just say, "The ITF and Chang Hon system was founded by General Choi and his followers who chose to go a different direction from that of the other kwans that eventually united into the Kukkiwon. Both groups have a common root but have gone in different directions" and then leave it at that and stop demanding recognition from the group that the ITF split from. Not going to happen, and frankly, there is no valid reason why it should.


Again you are right, but it would be nice & probably needed in some way if some were to work for a real unification & not just an absorption, not just for them, but all TKDin not now under the KW banner.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for the future of the art, the biggest thing hurting the art right now (in my opinion) is rampant commercialism coupled with low quality in a large number of schools (not most, but the bad always get more attention than the good).
> This is not unique to taekwondo, by the way, but I do believe that it has hit taekwondo the hardest, primarily because its popularity made it a target for entrepreneuers with more business sense than taekwondo training and for school owners who essentially sold out for cash.  The economy tanking isn't helping, but that is an external factor.


Also a good point.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Cooperation is the necessary step before any possible hope of unification. I also respectfully suggest that in order for cooperation to begin, groups looking to cooperate, must feel welcomed & what they bring to the table must be embraced. If not, it really is not cooperation or unification, but an absorption, don't you think?




Mr. Vitale, there was cooperation in the unification. Again, the Oh Do Kwan was present through its Kwan Jang at the time, GM HYUN Jong Myung. Everybody gave up their stuff when they went with the unified curriculum. The whole point of the 60's and early 70's was that, working through kwan differences and coming up with a unified curriculum which the pioneers agreed to, including but not limited to the Chang Hon pioneers.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Our GM gets all our belts, uniforms, kicking pads etc from his contacts in korea and sells them to us cheaper or the same price as we could get them here.




What kind of uniform do you wear, v neck or cross over?


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Again you are right, but it would be nice & probably needed in some way if some were to work for a real unification & not just an absorption, not just for them, but all TKDin not now under the KW banner.




Whose efforts were already made, decades ago. Again, everyone sacrificed their own individual style and accepted the new unified curriculum. Even GM LEE Won Kuk was accepting of the new curriculum, because he put it in his book. He accepted the name change, the uniform changes, all of the changes. I read somewhere that GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were better than him, but that is what you strive for, otherwise the art does not progress and grow. And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill, and also in Korea, watching his students change and build something that I don't believe anyone could have conceived of back in the 40's. From five small dojang sprung over 70 million practitioners, which is a conservative number in my opinion. But if you don't wish to be a part of it, then you really don't need to.


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill,



Heresy!  :ultracool


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I think with the current schism that was developing between the WTF & KKW will hopefully be sorted out.



Again, there is no schism between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> What kind of uniform do you wear, v neck or cross over?


we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.



When they first came out, I didn't like v necks. Harder to take off when you are sweaty. But then they improved the fabric and all I want to wear is v necks, although I still have cross over for Hapkido. But even hapkido I buy different pants for it, for the comfort.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 28, 2011)

puunui said:


> When they first came out, I didn't like v necks. Harder to take off when you are sweaty. But then they improved the fabric and all I want to wear is v necks, although I still have cross over for Hapkido. But even hapkido I buy different pants for it, for the comfort.


I must admit, Ive always wanted to wear a v-neck uniform, I seem to be constanyly adjusting my cross over one.


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## puunui (Jan 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I must admit, Ive always wanted to wear a v-neck uniform, I seem to be constanyly adjusting my cross over one.




Maybe one day, when you have your own school, you can wear a v neck.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe one day, when you have your own school, you can wear a v neck.


Id love to have my own school oneday, but that would be a long way into the future I imagine.


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## Steven Craig (Jan 29, 2011)

[FONT=&quot]This is for puunui, although you seem extremely passionate about unification, I just thought you may be interested in the thoughts of another from an independent club, if not please just disregard my ramblings.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kukkiwon; however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been argued one way or another probably even on this site. How I see it is the TKD club down the road that is affiliated with the Kukkiwon is run very differently to the one I have chosen for myself and my family. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My club was once a part of the Kukkiwon, but for reasons that I am not fully aware, nor want to go into detail about, (nor care about)have chosen to separate long before I joined. I have chosen my club for a variety of reasons, and when I started I did not care about the wider politics of my own club, little though TKD as a whole. What I do know when it comes to club or TKD politics I would rather not as I am there for simple reasons to train, to get fit to have fun in doing so. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As I have over the years found it an enjoyable pastime that I have put more and more effort into I have also discovered the wider range within the art. For those who want a single governing body, join the Kukkiwon and accept what comes with the association, but for me I am content where I am. If I was not or if I wanted my children to compete outside of the TKD body I am apart of I would join a different club and learn the curriculum that would come with that association, even if it meant the loss of my rank and going through the coloured belts again. If I joined a club that was as different as friends of mine who go to the Kukkiwon affiliated club down the road, then I would prefer to go through the coloured belts again as I would not feel a BB in such a vastly different organisation to the one I am in.[/FONT]


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

I would think that Puunui, while passionate about the KKW & having all TKD been seen as one, he sounds more like he would want everyone to join the KKW. This is a bit different from a union with the KKW, which is the root for the word unification, which is more of a merger or consolidation, like the union that formed the UNITED States. 
He does make good points about the unification efforts of the 1960s that led to the present day KKW. It seems that he would much rather prefer outsiders to just join or be absorbed by the KKW. I will let him address that if he wishes, as I am sure he can better explain my take on his thoughts.
While I do believe that is both a just cause & can have benefits for many, it simply leaves out a big piece of the puzzle, which is, what the millions of others outside the KKW have been doing from the 1960s & 1970s & even before the Korean Tae Soo Do & KKW were even formed. Many of these millions have been doing a martial art called TKD. I do not think that a true unification can happen without both discussion, consideration & some accommodation for all involved. This is why I think that a real unification will never happen, but if there was to be a hope for it, it would make sense that the KKW would have to expand so those looking to unite, not just join, will find that not only are they welcomed, but have a place.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> Again, there is no schism between the Kukkiwon and the WTF.


Yes it does sound like the current schism that was developing is being sorted out, as the 2 leaders seem to be working better than the previous leaders were. I think they may share more of a outlook together, which sounds like the previous leaders & members of the old guard are not happy about.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> Whose efforts were already made, decades ago. Again, everyone sacrificed their own individual style and accepted the new unified curriculum. Even GM LEE Won Kuk was accepting of the new curriculum, because he put it in his book. He accepted the name change, the uniform changes, all of the changes. I read somewhere that GM LEE Won Kuk said that his students were better than him, but that is what you strive for, otherwise the art does not progress and grow. And he has seen it back in Japan, watching son Giko Sensei surpass his father in ability and skill, and also in Korea, watching his students change and build something that I don't believe anyone could have conceived of back in the 40's. From five small dojang sprung over 70 million practitioners, which is a conservative number in my opinion. But if you don't wish to be a part of it, then you really don't need to.


Yes I find little to quibble about. In fact this is noble indeed. However it does leave out that not all did unify then & that millions around the world continued to grow & develop separately. So while you present an option for those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete unification. That option was always there for the millions outside of the KKW umbrella & still is. But joining a group is a bit different from unifying or becoming united with one. While some may see benefit in that, I am sure others may not. That is good, as it is an optional path.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

puunui said:


> Unification has, for the most part, already happened. The ITF and General Choi was severely weakened when he went to North Korea because many of the Korean born ITF instructors looked at him as a traitor and jumped ship. Ten years after General Choi's death, we see the ITF shattered into who knows how many different factions. In contrast, there are over 500 Kukkiwon 9th Dan out there, many of whom were former ITF members. How many ITF 9th Dan are out there? That should give you a clue as to the size differences of the two, and that is only at the top of the pyramid.


Yes a unification did take place that can trace a start to 50 years ago. So if people want to unify today, you really want them to just join the KKW, come under them, be absorbed by them & follow their outlines. That is OK, but it is not a unification & while that option is there, it always has been there. For some, a future that will not include what they have been doing for 50 years, might not be too attractive, hence their future may not include just joining the premier group.

For Korea itself, any unification of TKD, will have to be a real unification, as the millions in the north have not done, nor have ever done Kukki TKD, except for some possible secret training program, as they are not a member nation of the WTF. They have only done ITF TKD & done so since 1980, long after the previous largely successful unification efforts took place. They never had a seat at that table. When it comes to this unification, it will not be limited to the hands of the TKD leaders, but rather the politicians of their respective Reunification Ministries, which by the way, both Gen Choi & Dr Kim played roles in. So Korean politics will still have a role to play & hopefully it will be not of the nasty kind that has reared its ugly head before to the detriment of far too many, often innocent people.

So what many do view as traitorous, may still yet be recorded by history as patriotic & even heroic. Time will tell.

As to the 9th Dan stats, the KKW number of over 500 is most impressive. It does show how the KKW dwarfs the ITF & all of TKD. 

Gen Choi promoted only 7 to that rank. But all 7 shared his vision & most of them did his system just as he prescribed, which is impressive in a smaller & different light. Now just off the top of my head, the ITFs have promoted over a dozen 9th Dans on their own, who also follow a single system as left to them by Gen Choi. There are over 2 dozen Koreans from the north who approach our terminal degree of IX Dan grandmaster, along with countless others all waiting to cross that threshold from 8th Dan.

The overwhelming majority of ITF 9th Dans are non-Korean, which is also impressive in its own light. There are also many other Chang Hon 9th Dans out there as well, many of them are also non-Koreans. 
The prospect of growth in the future, including the near future is quite good among ITFers for 9th Dan, all doing pretty much the same thing, thanks to the dedication of a martial artist. 
In pure numbers, I don't think any group can catch up to the KKW, even if you combined all the others. But I do think that the ITF has produced more non-Korean 9th Dan grandmasters than any other group. I think that speaks to an aspect of their world-wide "internationalization". I hope that the KKW will continue to build standardization & outreach with their instructor courses. I think the WTF Poomsae championships & proposed new KKW black belt application procedures & requirements talked about in other sections of this forum help those efforts & that those efforts will allow them to increase their non-Korean numbers of 9th Dan grandmasters.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 29, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> we must wear cross over. No v-necks allowed.


I really like the V-Necks & the Korean feel for them, which goes back to the Korean hanbok. I also like the ITF dobok that joins in the middle & does not have ties, but either a zipper or velcro. I don't think I could ever go back to the cross over or ties! I hated them & now I think of karate or judo when I think about them, that is not bad, but it no longer has a TKD feel to it.


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## Kacey (Jan 29, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I really like the V-Necks & the Korean feel for them, which goes back to the Korean hanbok. I also like the ITF dobok that joins in the middle & does not have ties, but either a zipper or velcro. I don't think I could ever go back to the cross over or ties! I hated them & now I think of karate or judo when I think about them, that is not bad, but it no longer has a TKD feel to it.



I liked the velcro okay... but zippers are dangerous.  I saw a few people get kicked in the zipper pull, some on purpose, some not - some of my seniors considered the zipper pull a good target, being right on the sternum - I would never buy a dobok with a zipper, and, in fact, they never really caught on around here for just that reason.


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes a unification did take place that can trace a start to 50 years ago. So if people want to unify today, you really want them to just join the KKW, come under them, be absorbed by them & follow their outlines. That is OK, but it is not a unification & while that option is there, it always has been there. For some, a future that will not include what they have been doing for 50 years, might not be too attractive, hence their future may not include just joining the premier group.



No one wants to let go what they always did, not even the pioneers back in the 1960's. But they did it. If you are unable or unwilling to do the same, then you don't need to be a part of it.  But there are others who are willing to adapt and learn new ways, especially when they start thinking about their students and their student's future, people that ATA GM LEE Haeng Ung. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> For Korea itself, any unification of TKD, will have to be a real unification, as the millions in the north have not done, nor have ever done Kukki TKD, except for some possible secret training program, as they are not a member nation of the WTF. They have only done ITF TKD & done so since 1980, long after the previous largely successful unification efforts took place. They never had a seat at that table. When it comes to this unification, it will not be limited to the hands of the TKD leaders, but rather the politicians of their respective Reunification Ministries, which by the way, both Gen Choi & Dr Kim played roles in. So Korean politics will still have a role to play & hopefully it will be not of the nasty kind that has reared its ugly head before to the detriment of far too many, often innocent people.



No one will lose any sleep if North Korea chooses not to become a WTF Member National Association. I know I don't care. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> So what many do view as traitorous, may still yet be recorded by history as patriotic & even heroic. Time will tell.



I'm sure the supporters of Benedict Arnold feel the same way. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> As to the 9th Dan stats, the KKW number of over 500 is most impressive. It does show how the KKW dwarfs the ITF & all of TKD. Gen Choi promoted only 7 to that rank. But all 7 shared his vision & most of them did his system just as he prescribed



That's their problem. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> The overwhelming majority of ITF 9th Dans are non-Korean, which is also impressive in its own light



It's not impressive, it just underlines the fact that the overwhelming majority of Korean borns abandoned General Choi. There are many more former ITF members who hold Kukkiwon 9th Dan than there are ITF 9th Dan.


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

Steven Craig said:


> [FONT=&quot]I come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kukkiwon; however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been argued one way or another probably even on this site. [/FONT]




Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> He does make good points about the unification efforts of the 1960s that led to the present day KKW. It seems that he would much rather prefer outsiders to just join or be absorbed by the KKW. I will let him address that if he wishes, as I am sure he can better explain my take on his thoughts.



Mr. Vitale, I've already explained myself, numerous times and frankly, I am not going to go through the exercise of having to repeat myself just because you continue to ignore my prior statements when making your "commentary without facts". If you or North Korea doesn't wish to join, then you don't have to. No one is forcing you and frankly no one feels any loss because if your refusal. In General Choi's autobiography, he mistakenly attributes a Chung Do Kwan member standing on the top of the Chung Do Kwan building waving a red flag to GM LEE Won Kuk (GM Lee had already left for Japan before the invasion so it wasn't him). But this last time, reading your statements about the "millions of North Koreans" practicing ITF Taekwon-Do, I couldn't help but picture you in your blue suit and blue shirt waving that red flag on top of the Taekwon-Do Palace in North Korea. I believe that Mr. CHANG Ung of North Korea gave you your NK ITF 8th Dan; hang in there, because it's good propaganda for North Korea to be promoting Americans to NK ITF rank and for Americans to be an advocate and supporter for North Korea. Keep doing what you are doing, and your North Korea ITF 9th Dan is in the bag. 




KarateMomUSA said:


> I do not think that a true unification can happen without both discussion, consideration & some accommodation for all involved. This is why I think that a real unification will never happen, but if there was to be a hope for it, it would make sense that the KKW would have to expand so those looking to unite, not just join, will find that not only are they welcomed, but have a place.



George, can you see why Mr. CHANG Ung gave you that North Korean 8th Dan? I can.


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes I find little to quibble about. In fact this is noble indeed. However it does leave out that not all did unify then & that millions around the world continued to grow & develop separately.



George, you went from the "millions in North Korea" to the "millions around the world". Is that how you you are going to attempt to justify your support of North Korea, by somehow making it a "world" issue?  I don't think so. Is Juche your favorite tul? 




KarateMomUSA said:


> So while you present an option for those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete unification.



Whatever Mr. Vitale.




KarateMomUSA said:


> That option was always there for the millions outside of the KKW umbrella & still is.



George, I wouldn't be too sure about that, given the way the new Kukkiwon president feels about things. 



KarateMomUSA said:


> But joining a group is a bit different from unifying or becoming united with one. While some may see benefit in that, I am sure others may not. That is good, as it is an optional path.



Mr. Vitale, feel free to mischaracterize anything that you want. It's your defining characteristic at this point. But the fact remains, we have people who are willing to learn the Kukkiwon poomsae so they can participate in the larger Taekwondo world, even if you and North Korea are not.


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## terryl965 (Jan 30, 2011)

Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 30, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:


I got confused on all this stuff weeks ago, its like trying to watch a show where you've missed half a dozen episodes and then try to catch back up. Couple that with the fact that 18 months ago I didnt even know what the kukkiwon was and you've got one very lost guy here


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## Steven Craig (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?


  A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to *me*, those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what it already does.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Who is Mr. Vitale? I guess I missed something somewhere?:erg:



As I understand it - Puunui believes that KarateMomUSA is "George Vitale".  I asked the same question about a week ago and got that answer.  I haven't however seen a post from Puunui where he says it outright (but it's certainly readable as that) nor a post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As I understand it - Puunui believes that KarateMomUSA is "George Vitale". I asked the same question about a week ago and got that answer. I haven't however seen a post from Puunui where he says it outright (but it's certainly readable as that) nor a post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.


 Ok who is George Vitale? I guess he is some TKD guy? I will google the name to see what it brings up.


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

Ok here is some info on George Vitale.....

*More on George VitaleAmbassador of the Year*

SOME HIGHLIGHTS: Asst Coach 1988 WCs Budapest, Head of American TKD Delegation to North Korea in 1989, 1st time ever NK hosted a TKD event, Asst Coach 90 WCs Montreal, 11 international instructor courses, trained 9 other times under TKDs founder Gen Choi, Gen Choi International Cups 84, 85, 87, 92, 2000 & 2005, WCs 2006,7,8 & 09,  lifetime member of USTF since 82 & ITF since 86, GTF member 90, appeared in numerous publications & on TV for TKD, assisted Gen Choi with filming & editing of Official ITF training films, color commentary & technical analysis for ESPY TV coverage of ITF WCs, technical director for complete TKD training films, received permission from US Govt. to travel direct to Cuba for TKD, member of AAU, former member of USTU, participated in ITF, WTF, AAU Jr Olympics & independent TKD events, been to both Koreas learning, teaching & sharing TKD on both sides of the DMZ, assisted GM Jung in obtaining US Govt. permission for NK goodwill tour of USA in & accompanied entourage from start to finish in Oct 07, attended both the 25th ITF Anniversary Celebration in Ottawa, Canada & 40th Pyongyang, DPRK, attended 5 yr memorial service for Gen Choi in Pyongyang 2007, obtained permission from DPRK govt for the 1st American film crew to record in NK, have been published in numerous periodicals, writing mostly on TKDs history as well as technical advice. 

Has trained under or interviewed: Gen Choi, Rhee Ki Ha, Park Jong Soo, Lee Suk Hi, Kim Kwang Sung, Charles Sereff, James Murray, Nam Tae Hi, Jung Woo Jin, Kimm He Young, Choi Kwang Jo, Park Jung Tae, Yu Hong Sung, Han Ham Soo, Richard Chun, Kim Suk Jun, Kang Suh Chong, Chung Kwang Duk, S Henry Cho, Hwang Kwang Sung, Phap Lu, Leong Wai Meng, Choi Jung Hwa, Jhoon Rhee, Tran Trien Quan, Prof Chang Ung, Dr Choue Chong Won, Kim Bok Man, Michael Winegar, Benny Rivera, Andres Mencia, Kang Yon Ho, Lee Byung Moo, Doug Cook, Robert Wheatley, Francis Barrett, Choi Chang Keun, Kong Yong Il, Cho Sang Min, Van Binh Nyugen, Uhm Un Gyo, Yang Jin Suk, Son Duk Sung, Lim Ching Sing, Kong Yong Bo, Yang Dong Ya, Yang Woo Yup, Ung Kim Lang, Wim Bos, Robert Howard, Anthony Phelan, Cho Dae Sung, Cho Pyung Kyu, Hector Marano, Pablo Tratenberg, Park Dong Keun, Park Yeon Hwan, Kang Tae Sun, Hwang Ho Yong, Kim Ung Chol, Yang Jun Bang, Ri Yong Suk


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## andyjeffries (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Ok here is some info on George Vitale.....



And some more:

Inducted into the Official Taekwondo Hall of  Fame (Lifetime Acheivement Award)
in the ceremony held in Teaneck, New Jersey, USA on April 10, 2009 

Special Advisor & Member of  Organizing Committee for Inaugural Taekwondo Hall of Fame
Ceremony held April 6th, 2007.  Inductees included Great GM Nam Tae Hi, GM Rhee Ki Ha,
GM Kim Bok Man, GM Cho Sang Min, GM Chang Keun Choi,, GM Kong Young II, GM-
Park Dong Keun, and GM Jhoon Rhee.

Trained, studied, taught & promoted Taekwon-Do in over 30 countries around
the world, including Cuba, South & North Korea

Attended several International Instructor Courses, including 1 that was 2 weeks
duration, 2 that were 1 week long & numerous other seminars taught by General Choi Hong Hi

Represented the USA at several World Congress Meetings & attended various World Champ-
ionships & International Tournaments, acting as both Head & Assistant Coach for the US Team

Completed several Academic Education Science classes in the Methods of Instruction in order
to enhance my ability to share Taekwon-Do with others

Retired from the NY State Police in 2005, after 24 years of service in order to teach full time &
work on Taekwon-Do research, for a full length feature documentary on Taekwon-Do history,
interviewing several pioneering Grandmasters & other pivotal figures

Current & past member of the AAU, past member of the USTU

Graduated with a Master of Arts Degree from John Jay College of Criminal Justice in Feb. of
1997, after completing 5 extensive research papers and 2 theses on Martial Arts and Juvenile
Delinquency

Taught & promoted countless students to Black Belt

Expanded the Original Taekwon-Do School & moved to its present location in 1994

Assisted with the filming and editing of Official I.T.F. Training Tapes in 1991

Appointed Vice President of the USTF, the National Governing Body of the ITF in 1991

Officiated at the World Championships in Montreal, Canada in August of 1990, later providing
color commentary and technical analysis for ESPY-TV for the Martial Arts World Television
Program on the Madison Square Garden Network

Opened the Original Taekwon-Do School in May of 1990

Produced, Directed and Starred in Taekwon-Do: A Way To A Better Life, broadcasted on
Channel 24 of Staten Island, NY Cable TV, debuting on November 15, 1989

Head of the U.S.A. Delegation to the 13th World Festival of Youth and Students, held in
Pyongyang, the Capital City of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, the first time students
ever competed in north Korea. This historic trip took place during an event attended by more than
30,000 people from 180 Countries.

Presented with numerous Appreciation & Recognition awards for important contributions to
Taekwon-Do by the USTF, TKD Times & others

Established the Original Taekwon-Do Club as the primary contact and training center for the 
TF/USTF in the NY Metropolitan Area in May of 1988, continuing to present

Represented the USA at the ITF World Congress Meeting and Press Conference, nominated
by General Choi Hong Hi to the position of Director of the ITF & was unanimously approved
by the Congress on April 7, 1988

Goodwill Tour of Yugoslavia with the National Teams of the USA & Yugoslavia, starting with
a Team Match in Zagreb, marking the 20th Year Anniversary of Taekwon-Do in Yugoslavia on
April 12, 1988

Certified as an International Instructor/Examiner, # 404, with the ability to teach and test students
worldwide, a Class "A" International Umpire # 380A & Class "B" National Umpire # 270B by\
the I.T.F. on July 26, 1987

Interviewed and filmed General Choi, Hong Hi for Winner Magazine, at his home in Mississagua,
Canada during December of 1986

Founded the Original Taekwon-Do Club - ITF Main Gymnasium #311 and USTF Branch # 16,
along with 16 other Black Belts during August of 1986

Promoted to IV Dan by the USTF #3200, on August 23, 1986

Trained under General Choi, Hong Hi for the first time, at a Seminar he conducted in Houston,
TX from July 17th to the 21st, 1986

Enrolled as a Lifetime Member of the ITF #3200 in January of 1986

Named Vice President of Kim's Taekwon-Do School in December of 1986

Demonstrated Taekwon-Do on the Harry Lipsig Manhattan, NY TV Show in 1984

Met General Choi, Hong Hi, IX Dan, a principal founder of Taekwon-Do and President of the I.T.F.
and officiated at the General Choi's Cup held in Bergenfield, NJ in November of 1984

Head Coach for the NYC Taekwon-Do Team to the AAU Junior Olympic Games held in
Jacksonville, FL during August of 1984

Designated Zone Defensive Tactics Instructor for the NYS Police in 1983

Enrolled as a Lifetime Member #3200 of the United States Taekwon-Do Federation, the National
Governing Body for the ITF on July 25, 1982

Graduated from the New York State Police Academy in Albany, NY after completing 6 months
of extensive training, which included defensive tactics and physical fitness training in March of 1982

Sworn in as a NY State Trooper by Gov. Hugh Carey on October 19, 1981

Promoted to I Dan Black Belt by Master Kim Kwang Sung and Master Kwon Jae Hwa, the
Pioneer of Taekwon-Do in Germany on July 22, 1977 and Certified by the I.T.F. # A-1-2654
and named Assistant Instructor at Kim's Taekwon-Do School

Started training in Taekwon-Do, The Korean Art of Self Defense in the early 1970s, at
International Taekwon-Do Federation Main Gymnasium # 21, in Brooklyn, NY, under
Kim, Kwang Sung, a VII Dan Master Instructor, who was Certified by the ITF, which was the
1st & the oldest worldwide Governing Body of Taekwon-Do


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members. How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then?


I would feel that the KKW finally was able to accomplish what the ITF has already been doing for years.
I would salute them for a job well done, as I know the task of such a standardization that the ITF was able to have is a very difficult task indeed. But congratulations would definitely be in order. I have no problem giving deserved credit where credit is due.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 31, 2011)

Quote:Originally Posted by *KarateMomUSA* 

 
_"So while you present an option for  those to join the past unification of decades ago, that retroactive  joining is not a unification, but an absorption into the KKW, a present  day entity that was created in 1972 by a true but somewhat incomplete  unification."

In some posts it has been said that we are all TKD. But it then also seems that in some ways we are really not all TKD, as we must give up in some manor & not get any recognition for what we have done with TKD for decades in some cases, but can then join the KKW & be absorbed by them. Well then we just shouldn't call that unification, but absorption, which was always an option. But if some may wish to join, I am not sure many would simply not want to be absorbed, especially when they may feel so much resentment from some.
_


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 31, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> ...post from KarateMomUSA either denying or confirming it.


There really is nothing to deny or confirm. The screen name above has not posted anything negative about anyone. In fact, the posts have been highly laudable about the quality of the info posted by the screen name Puunui. In fact many thanks have been given, as it is very valuable info indeed, that all helps to further the understanding of the often confusing & contradictory history of the development of TKD. I would add just to be fully accurate, that there were posts about GM Lee Chong Woo's own words about his involvement in both spreading the 2,000 year old myth & "branch trimming", which was the cheating for south Korean players. There was also posts about Dr Kim Un Yon's resignations, arrest, conviction & serving prison time & pardon. This is common knowledge. There was also posts about the terrible things GM Lee Won Kuk & his family & some of his students were subjected to, which resulted in him fleeing to Japan to escape more political oppression. 
These were both explained as a result of the influence of the nasty Korean politics that have both assisted TKD's growth, development & spread, as well as hurt its progress & those involved in it.    
Then of course there were the numerous negative posts about Gen Choi. 
It now seems that there are attempts now to make this debate personal & that is sad. It is also not fitting in the realm of the martial arts. It seems that some are making this a fight. I am looking to participate in a dialogue, not fighting. I think the time is long gone for this type of attitude. It is somewhat disappointing that this continues from generation to generation.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> There really is nothing to deny or confirm. The screen name above has not posted anything negative about anyone.


The question is one of identity, not of negativity. Are you or are you not George Vitale? 

If you *are*, then please say so. It would also be in good taste to request a change in screen name (taekwondo dad??) or sign your posts 'George.'

If you are *not* George Vitale, then simply say so and be done with it. This is a yes or no question. Answer yes or no. No need for a multi-paragraph response either. 

If you do not wish to answer, then say so and be done with it, but understand that most of us will take that as a yes, so it is best to give the actual answer.

Personally, I don't care. But as the subject has come up, you really should address it.

I have already stated in another thread that if one is going to call someone else on their identity that they should be posting their own as well.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jan 31, 2011)

I for one do not care if she or he is or not George Vitale, but it would be nice to know just for the record. I hate to call someone mam when they are indeed a sir.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I for one do not care if she or he is or not George Vitale, but it would be nice to know just for the record. I hate to call someone mam when they are indeed a sir.


My feeling as well.  Not to mention that I would like to see an end to the issue.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I for one do not care if she or he is or not George Vitale, but it would be nice to know just for the record. I hate to call someone mam when they are indeed a sir.



I care, because it goes to the credibility and honesty of the person in question. We already know this person is lying about the art they study, Karate instead of Taekwon-Do.


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## Kacey (Jan 31, 2011)

Steven Craig said:


> A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to *me*, those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what it already does.



I've been in Taekwon-Do for 24 years... in all that time, I've never had a certificate from the Kukkiwon.  I started in the USTF/ITF, and left for reasons I considered valid; my last ITF certificate was for 3rd Dan; my 4th and 5th are from YCTA exclusively.  This bothers me not at all - the stamped signature of Gen. Choi from the ITF meant nothing then, and means nothing now - the signatures of my instructor, and his, certifying that I had indeed met all the requirements, were then, and remain now, the only signatures I care about.  A certificate is just a piece of paper, and can be easily faked - the good opinion of one's ability from one's seniors is what matters.


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

Steven Craig said:


> A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to *me*, those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what it already does.



That really doesn't answer my question, but that is ok. 

Those schools who utilize the Kukkiwon curriculum (including but not limited to the Palgwae poomsae, which is now considered obsolete by the Kukkiwon) but do not give Kukkiwon certification, fail to give Kukkiwon certificates for three basic reasons:

1) The head instructor does not have sufficient Kukkiwon rank to recommend candidates for Kukkiwon poom/dan promotion; and/or

2) The head instructor wants to keep all of the testing fees for him or herself; and/or 

3) The head instructor does not want to create competitors by giving his/her students Kukkiwon certification and empowering them to issue Kukkiwon certification themselves. 

When asked why the particular school does not issue Kukkiwon certification to its students, several basic justifications are always given:

1) We are a martial art, not a sport, and Kukkiwon certification is for sport; 

2) A certificate signed by the head instructor is more valuable than one signed by a stranger, because the head instructor knows you personally and knows what you can do; 

3) The Kukkiwon is run by the Korean government and we don't want to be under the thumb of any foreign country;

4) Kukkiwon certification is expensive and takes a long time to process, sometimes years; 

5) The Kukkiwon wants to tell us what to do and what we can teach, and our head instructor has fifty or more years of experience and it should be the other way around, our head instructor should be telling the Kukkiwon what to teach; 

6) You don't need Kukkiwon certification. 

The first three reasons are generally the head instructor's personal reasons, and the last six are the ones that are given to students, who end up repeating these if anyone asks them why they practice the Kukkiwon curriculum but don't have Kukkiwon certification.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> I care, because it goes to the credibility and honesty of the person in question. We already know this person is lying about the art they study, Karate instead of Taekwon-Do.


Actually, no.  The title implies not that this individual studied karate, but that they are the parent of someone who does; soccor moms don't play soccer.  Their kids do.

So the name implies having kids who study karate.  Given how many MA schools call themselves karate, karatemom could be justified as a generic term for martial arts mom.

However, the name also implies femeninity.  

KaratemomUSA implies all of the above in addition to being either a US resident or a US citizen living abroad.  If he/she/it has no kids in a martial art associated with karate, is not a woman, and neither lives in nor is a citizen of the United States, then the name is completely misleading. 

However, none of that is why people want to know.  We want to know because you started calling "her" 'George' and 'Mister Vitale,' and the names seemed initially to have come out of nowhere.  I'm less interested in whether or not she is a he, has kids, or if those kids practice karate than I am in whether or not she is the specific person of George Vitale.

I could care less what cutesy nick name one chooses to use on the internet.  But if you are asked if you are specific TKD historian during the course of numerous threads about TKD history, you should confirm that you are or are not.

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> That really doesn't answer my question, but that is ok.
> 
> Those schools who utilize the Kukkiwon curriculum (including but not limited to the Palgwae poomsae, which is now considered obsolete by the Kukkiwon) but do not give Kukkiwon certification, fail to give Kukkiwon certificates for three basic reasons:
> 
> ...


First of all, thanks for debating this with me in good manner. I have had these discussions with kukki members in the past (not here on martial talk) and usually get attacked in quite a spiteful way for not being affiliated, I appreciate the way we can throw facts back and forth and have some meaningful debate. 
I cant speak on behalf of steven's school, but I think half the problem here is the assumption that we are learning kukki curriculum. I have seen enough demos from kukki schools to see that what we do is different. I have also trained with a friend's neighbour who is a korean guy with a kukki background who has also commented on how different we are from what he is used to. What we do may have a slight WTF look to it at times, but then so does shotokan karate and ITF tkd if you want to get technical and they, like us, dont claim to be WTF style. In response to your top 3 points, our club has had many students move on and start their own clubs once they are a high enough rank, so I doubt our GM is worried about having competitors out there. Around here our club is a household name in tkd circles, even amongst those who train at other clubs, everyone has heard of us and the club continues to grow, so if an instructor wants to move on and start his own club then I doubt our GM would go chasing him down to tell them not to,unless of course he tried to take a heap of other instructors and students with him but then this would cause friction in any club whether it be WTF,ITF or the local ballet club, it would not go down well. Also, one of the reasons our GM ceased to be affiliated was because he felt that kukki tkd was moving in a different direction to what he was and he is not alone on this, its the same reason the other large clubs in my area are no longer affiliated. I also dont feel that the argument of our GM wanting to pocket all grading fees himself is relevent because our dan grading fees have remained the same for 20 years and in the past those that wanted a kukki cert as well simply paid the extra to get the kukki cert and jsut paid whatever the kukki charged so therefore our GM has not gained or lost any money from no longer offering kukki certs. And finally, as Ive said in the past, from what my old instructor tells me if I do want a kukki cert all I have to do is ask and our GM can get me one.


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> First of all, thanks for debating this with me in good manner. I have had these discussions with kukki members in the past (not here on martial talk) and usually get attacked in quite a spiteful way for not being affiliated, I appreciate the way we can throw facts back and forth and have some meaningful debate.



No problem. Some of that I believe is necessary in the beginning, so we can start a relationship, but then after we can settle down and talk about things. For me it builds mutual respect. Some people take it the wrong way and become bitter and resentful. Oh well, to each his own. it's like class. Sometimes you get hazed, and it's nothing personal, it's just part of the experience of learning. people tried to haze me when i first started posting here, but that has sort of died down. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> I cant speak on behalf of steven's school, but I think half the problem here is the assumption that we are learning kukki curriculum. I have seen enough demos from kukki schools to see that what we do is different. I have also trained with a friend's neighbour who is a korean guy with a kukki background who has also commented on how different we are from what he is used to. What we do may have a slight WTF look to it at times, but then so does shotokan karate and ITF tkd if you want to get technical and they, like us, dont claim to be WTF style.



That doesn't mean that your are not within the spectrum. You might not think you are, but what you describe sounds to me like you are. Perhaps some of your methods are outdated, and maybe no one from your school is Olympic ready, but then again, there are a ton of schools out there that are in a similar boat as you. So don't worry about it. We all have to start somewhere. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> In response to your top 3 points, our club has had many students move on and start their own clubs once they are a high enough rank, so I doubt our GM is worried about having competitors out there.



But do those that opened their own clubs have high enough Kukkiwon rank (4th Dan or higher) to issue on their own? 




ralphmcpherson said:


> Around here our club is a household name in tkd circles, even amongst those who train at other clubs, everyone has heard of us and the club continues to grow, so if an instructor wants to move on and start his own club then I doubt our GM would go chasing him down to tell them not to,unless of course he tried to take a heap of other instructors and students with him but then this would cause friction in any club whether it be WTF,ITF or the local ballet club, it would not go down well.



Maybe he feels that way now, when he is on the verge of retirement, but perhaps he thought differently in the past. All it takes is one student to sour the well for everyone else. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> Also, one of the reasons our GM ceased to be affiliated was because he felt that kukki tkd was moving in a different direction to what he was and he is not alone on this, its the same reason the other large clubs in my area are no longer affiliated.



That's one of the six points given to students to justify not issuing Kukkiwon certification. 




ralphmcpherson said:


> I also dont feel that the argument of our GM wanting to pocket all grading fees himself is relevent because our dan grading fees have remained the same for 20 years and in the past those that wanted a kukki cert as well simply paid the extra to get the kukki cert and jsut paid whatever the kukki charged so therefore our GM has not gained or lost any money from no longer offering kukki certs. And finally, as Ive said in the past, from what my old instructor tells me if I do want a kukki cert all I have to do is ask and our GM can get me one.



My wife and I have a standing joke about chinese restaurants here and on the mainland US. It used to be that rice, a staple like tea at Chinese restaurants, used to be free and came with the meal, in a big dish. Now if you want rice, the waitress will tell you "If you want rice, you pay extra!" and they give you one small bowl. I don't know why I just thought about that, but that is what it sounds like to me, what was once or what was supposed to be a part of the Taekwondo experience (Kukkiwon certification for everyone) is now something that you have to pay extra for.  Why? Why not give the Kukkiwon certification to everyone, and if you want the certificate with the grandmaster's signature on it, then pay extra for that, since that is the special certificate?


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

Kacey said:


> the signatures of my instructor, and his, certifying that I had indeed met all the requirements, were then, and remain now, the only signatures I care about.




What happens if and when your instructor retires or passes away? No more promotions for you?


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> What happens if and when your instructor retires or passes away? No more promotions for you?


If and when my GM passes away there will still be 3 or 4 8th dans and about 10 6th dans and about 30 5th dans who could promote me. If I start adding in the 4th dans there would be close to 100 or more seniors who could grade me. As it stands currently nearly all students are graded by the 7th dans, so really if our GM passes away nothing changes at all.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> No problem. Some of that I believe is necessary in the beginning, so we can start a relationship, but then after we can settle down and talk about things. For me it builds mutual respect. Some people take it the wrong way and become bitter and resentful. Oh well, to each his own. it's like class. Sometimes you get hazed, and it's nothing personal, it's just part of the experience of learning. people tried to haze me when i first started posting here, but that has sort of died down.
> 
> _I agree._
> 
> ...


The reason he doesnt give a kukki cert is the same reason you dont give a plumber's ticket to someone who has just completed a carpentary apprenticeship. Quite simply, they dont know the stuff, so why have a certificate saying you do. Personally, Id feel pretty silly having a kukki cert hanging on my wall when I cant even do one taeguek form, but maybe thats just me.


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## puunui (Jan 31, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If and when my GM passes away there will still be 3 or 4 8th dans and about 10 6th dans and about 30 5th dans who could promote me. If I start adding in the 4th dans there would be close to 100 or more seniors who could grade me. As it stands currently nearly all students are graded by the 7th dans, so really if our GM passes away nothing changes at all.




Any of those high dans have high dan Kukkiwon rank as well? What is the highest Kukkiwon rank that your grandmaster has issued? That might change if your Grandmaster passes away, the ability to recommend candidates to Kukkiwon dan rank, should they be interested in that.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 31, 2011)

puunui said:


> Any of those high dans have high dan Kukkiwon rank as well? What is the highest Kukkiwon rank that your grandmaster has issued? That might change if your Grandmaster passes away, the ability to recommend candidates to Kukkiwon dan rank, should they be interested in that.


I honestly couldnt tell you what the highest kukki dan our GM has promoted someone to, but I doubt it would be very high at all. All our high ranking instructors have their rank through our GM only. I doubt after they have been teaching the one way for 35 years or more that they will decide to change. Our high ranking instructors, for instance, are an absolute wealth of knowlege on the palgwe form set and I cant see them wanting to ditch all that info and learn a whole new set of forms, these guys are well into their 50's and have done nothing but palgwes for a long time. With our GM all but removed from the club as it is now I really cant see anything changing when he passes away, our chief instructor has the power now to change whatever he wants and he chooses not to and his peers are in full support of that, with the passing of the GM that wont change in my opinion. It would almost seem hypocritical for them to change to kukki after the amount of times Ive heard them say things like "get your guard up, this isnt that olympic style stuff you see on tv" or how they go on and on about having big deep stances, I just couldnt see them teaching koryo the way I saw the local kukki club do it at the school fete recently.


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## leadleg (Jan 31, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I honestly couldnt tell you what the highest kukki dan our GM has promoted someone to, but I doubt it would be very high at all. All our high ranking instructors have their rank through our GM only. I doubt after they have been teaching the one way for 35 years or more that they will decide to change. Our high ranking instructors, for instance, are an absolute wealth of knowlege on the palgwe form set and I cant see them wanting to ditch all that info and learn a whole new set of forms, these guys are well into their 50's and have done nothing but palgwes for a long time. With our GM all but removed from the club as it is now I really cant see anything changing when he passes away, our chief instructor has the power now to change whatever he wants and he chooses not to and his peers are in full support of that, with the passing of the GM that wont change in my opinion. It would almost seem hypocritical for them to change to kukki after the amount of times Ive heard them say things like "get your guard up, this isnt that olympic style stuff you see on tv" or how they go on and on about having big deep stances, I just couldnt see them teaching koryo the way I saw the local kukki club do it at the school fete recently.


 It is a shame your instructors generalise about kukki tkd ,stuck doing palgwe's for years sounds like torture to me.I do all the palgwe's plus.............many other forms over the span of my training.I could generalise and say you are stuck in a time warp,or you can't see the difference in sport tkd guard down and street style fighting with the guard up.but I know your instructors know the difference.I suppose it is like having to put someone down to feel better about yourself. 
I do not know why Glen pushes for your certification I cannot see why you would ever need it with all the knowledge about the 8 palgwe's to carry you onward. 
Also what about the deep stances,are you the ones with the deep stances or do you think the kukki folks have too deep stances. 
It always boils down to good instructors and not the organisation you are in.I hope you have some good ones that don't put others down to make up for their lack.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 31, 2011)

leadleg said:


> It is a shame your instructors generalise about kukki tkd ,stuck doing palgwe's for years sounds like torture to me.I do all the palgwe's plus.............many other forms over the span of my training.I could generalise and say you are stuck in a time warp,or you can't see the difference in sport tkd guard down and street style fighting with the guard up.but I know your instructors know the difference.I suppose it is like having to put someone down to feel better about yourself.
> I do not know why Glen pushes for your certification I cannot see why you would ever need it with all the knowledge about the 8 palgwe's to carry you onward.
> Also what about the deep stances,are you the ones with the deep stances or do you think the kukki folks have too deep stances.
> It always boils down to good instructors and not the organisation you are in.I hope you have some good ones that don't put others down to make up for their lack.


Whilst you can say that doing the palgwes for years sounds like torture, you must remember that most kukki schools only do taegeks, so I fail to see your point. I dont know of many (if any) kukki schools that do both sets, so I could say that doing only the taegeks sounds like torture. We are in time warp, our instructors make no excuse for that and are the first ones to say that if we wnat up to date modern tkd then we are not the school for that. You hit the nail on the head when you said "it boils down to good instructors and not the org you are in", thats the point Ive been trying to make. My instructor is a 7th dan with 40 years experience both training and instructing and he produces very good martial artists, and as you said I dont know why I would ever require acert from an org whose curriculum we dont follow. Actually I agree with everything you said in your post.


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## leadleg (Jan 31, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Whilst you can say that doing the palgwes for years sounds like torture, you must remember that most kukki schools only do taegeks, so I fail to see your point. I dont know of many (if any) kukki schools that do both sets, so I could say that doing only the taegeks sounds like torture. We are in time warp, our instructors make no excuse for that and are the first ones to say that if we wnat up to date modern tkd then we are not the school for that. You hit the nail on the head when you said "it boils down to good instructors and not the org you are in", thats the point Ive been trying to make. My instructor is a 7th dan with 40 years experience both training and instructing and he produces very good martial artists, and as you said I dont know why I would ever require acert from an org whose curriculum we dont follow. Actually I agree with everything you said in your post.


 There are many kukki schools who do palgwe's and taegueks,we do and we also do many moo duk kwan forms also(shotokan kata).As we get higher dan we learn many new forms, that is not better or worse than only one set but to me personally it sounds boring. 
I agree with you,if you don't want to learn the additional forms then you don't want KKW very bad and should stay out.
 I guess its clear that Glen does not really care whether you want KKW but whether he can recruit 4000 members.I do not understand where he is going with you,he needs the ear of your 7th not a 1st. Good luck with your training and I hope you do not judge all KKW schools the same,or from what you think you SEE on tv.


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## Steven Craig (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> That really doesn't answer my question, but that is ok.
> 
> Those schools who utilize the Kukkiwon curriculum (including but not limited to the Palgwae poomsae, which is now considered obsolete by the Kukkiwon) but do not give Kukkiwon certification, fail to give Kukkiwon certificates for three basic reasons:
> 
> ...


I am sorry that I am happy with how my club operates is not a worthy response for you. I am going to step out of the debate now. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> There are many kukki schools who do palgwe's and taegueks,we do and we also do many moo duk kwan forms also(shotokan kata).As we get higher dan we learn many new forms, that is not better or worse than only one set but to me personally it sounds boring.
> I agree with you,if you don't want to learn the additional forms then you don't want KKW very bad and should stay out.
> I guess its clear that Glen does not really care whether you want KKW but whether he can recruit 4000 members.I do not understand where he is going with you,he needs the ear of your 7th not a 1st. Good luck with your training and I hope you do not judge all KKW schools the same,or from what you think you SEE on tv.


Actually, if you go back through my posts you will find many times where I say I have absolutely nothing against kukki tkd, its just not what I do. I also have the utmost respect for WTF sparring, the athleticism, speed and accuracy of those guys is mind blowing and if I tried to spar like that for more than a minute Id probably collapse in a heap, the speed of their footwork alone is a workout in itself so please dont ever think I have anything against kukki tkd, but again its just not what I do. Im glad to hear your club branches out and learns more than just the one set, everyone I talk to from any club just seems to work on the one set of coloured belt forms so its good to hear you guys expand your knowlege. As Ive said before, the  biggest clubs in my local area have in excess of 12 000 students combined and none are kukki affiliated and yet all kukki clubs combined in my area would be flat out having a few thousand students combined, so I just dont see kukki affiliation as the be all and end all, and I dont want to be certified in something I dont know.


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## Kacey (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> What happens if and when your instructor retires or passes away? No more promotions for you?



You missed my point entirely.  Signatures from an instructor - no matter how highly ranked - who has never seen me perform are meaningless to me.  The opinion of the seniors who actually know me - whether my instructor or others - is what matters.  That opinion is shown through a variety of methods, one of which is a signature on a promotion certificate - but the feedback I get in and out of class is worth considerably more.  In the end, certificates can be forged - but a reputation is earned.


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you do not wish to answer, then say so and be done with it, but understand that most of us will take that as a yes, so it is best to give the actual answer.
> Personally, I don't care. But as the subject has come up, you really should address it.
> I have already stated in another thread that if one is going to call someone else on their identity that they should be posting their own as well.


I am sorry Sir as I did address this & am sorry that it was not to the satisfaction of some readers. Yes people are always free to draw whatever conclusion that they deem best, from info typed on a public discussion forum. There has also never been a calling out under this screen name for anyone's identity, it just would not be fair or right, given how this screen name posts. Given that, it at times can be a tactic used in debates to go negative & personal in a way, this screen name will not do that & expresses regrets that others may not apply that standard.


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

The future of TKD I would imagine depends to a degree on how people look at TKD. If all those who call what they are doing TKD are indeed TKD, then it makes some sense that in order to move forward together or working closer with each other, there must be a positive environment. Negativity usually works against any type of cooperation. 
So maybe a possible scenario for the future of TKD would be:
Sport TKD under the WTF, where all that wanted to, could pursue that path.
Martial Art TKD, where everyone would be free to pursue that as they see fit, possibly under the banner of TKD as an umbrella term.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Given that, it at times can be a tactic used in debates to go negative & personal in a way, this screen name will not do that & expresses regrets that others may not apply that standard.



As Daniel says though, that's a risk of everyone considering it a yes.

Personally I don't care, although it's nice to put a face to the name (and know what the background is of the commenter).  I do find it a bit weird though that a man would use a female "online alias".  If someone wants to call themselves NinjaFish or something fine, but to use a name that implies (or is explicitly) the opposite sex is weird.

Probably because in my mind it invokes thoughts of grooming, where someone would claim to be something they're not online.  I'm sure you're not that way, but if you are a man using a woman's name it just feels odd.

Although you won't claim to be a George Vitale, can you at least confirm if you are indeed female?


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## dancingalone (Feb 1, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> can you at least confirm if you are indeed female?



Or what you are wearing?  :angel:

j/k


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I am sorry Sir as I did address this & am sorry that it was not to the satisfaction of some readers. Yes people are always free to draw whatever conclusion that they deem best, from info typed on a public discussion forum. .


I did not see where you addressed it, but as the name issue seems to have been brought up across multiple threads, I very likely missed it.  No offense, but your conversations with Glenn kind of run together.  So I take it that you are declining to answer?  Fine with me, as I am not the one calling you out.



KarateMomUSA said:


> There has also never been a calling out under this screen name for anyone's identity, it just would not be fair or right, given how this screen name posts. Given that, it at times can be a tactic used in debates to go negative & personal in a way, this screen name will not do that & expresses regrets that others may not apply that standard.


Please refer to yourself in the first person as 'me,' 'myself,' or 'I' rather than as "this screen name"  Its silly... unless ''this screen name'' is being used by multiple people which may be against the terms of service (unsure about that).

Daniel


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## KarateMomUSA (Feb 1, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I did not see where you addressed it, but as the name issue seems to have been brought up across multiple threads, I very likely missed it.  No offense, but your conversations with Glenn kind of run together.  So I take it that you are declining to answer?  Fine with me, as I am not the one calling you out.


Yes the silly back & forth do tend to drown out info, for which I am sorry for. Thank you.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2011)

I for one do not care if you are George or Georgia, what I do care if I am addressing a man or woman. So please say weather you are female or male? I think this **** is so funny because people tend to hide behind screen names, what is wrong with people knowing who you are? Wait it is a secret society that only fights the good fight of TKD, one bad the other good, the only problem is we do not know which one is which......* AS Martiasl Talk Turns,* same bat time same bat channel same old ********.....


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## dancingalone (Feb 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I for one do not care if you are George or Georgia, what I do care if I am addressing a man or woman. So please say weather you are female or male? I think this **** is so funny because people tend to hide behind screen names, what is wrong with people knowing who you are? Wait it is a secret society that only fights the good fight of TKD, one bad the other good, the only problem is we do not know which one is which......* AS Martiasl Talk Turns,* same bat time same bat channel same old ********.....




Terry, we can both join the Legion of Doom.  Whuddya say?


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

Kacey said:


> You missed my point entirely.



Actually, no I did not. 

You said this:the  signatures of my instructor, and his, certifying that I had indeed met  all the requirements, were then, and remain now, the only signatures I  care about. 			 		 	 	 

To which I asked this: What happens if and when your instructor retires or passes away? No more promotions for you? 		

And you responded with this: You missed my point entirely.  Signatures from an instructor - no matter how highly ranked - who has never seen me perform are meaningless to me.  The opinion of the seniors who actually know me - whether my instructor or others - is what matters.  That opinion is shown through a variety of methods, one of which is a signature on a promotion certificate - but the feedback I get in and out of class is worth considerably more.  In the end, certificates can be forged - but a reputation is earned.

Let me ask it this way then: The people who give you feedback in and out of class, which is worth considerably more to you than a signature on a certificate, when they pass away, does that mean no more feedback and no more promotions for you?


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

Steven Craig said:


> I am sorry that I am happy with how my club operates is not a worthy response for you. I am going to step out of the debate now. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.



You said this:[FONT=&quot]"I  come from a large independent club within Australia that spans the east  coast. I think it is valuable to have large organisations like the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Kukkiwon;  however, I do not believe they are the be all of TKD, nor do I believe  that one body needs to be responsible to unite all of TKD under one  banner, other arts demonstrates richness in variety and as TKD grows it  does as well. My club uses palgwe forms for coloured belts and we have  never been exposed to Taeguek forms. The reasoning behind this has been  argued one way or another probably even on this site. [/FONT] 			 		 	 	 "

To which I asked you this: "Assume that everything at your large organization was the same, same  curriculum, same teachers, same everything, except that they issued  Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification to its members.  How would you feel about the Kukkiwon then? 		 "

You responded with this: "A certification in the Kukkiwon has no meaning or relevance to *me*,  those who have chosen to promote me through the ranks are from with-in  my organisation, they know my name and my face, and have seen me grow in  the art, that has meaning to me. Do I want to be a part of a large  bureaucracy that has its head office overseas? No, a Kukkiwon  certificate would not make my rank feel more like I earned it than what  it already does."

To which my response was this: "That really doesn't answer my question, but that is ok."

Then you comeback with this: "I am sorry that I am happy with how my club operates is not a worthy  response for you. I am going to step out of the debate now. I hope you  find the answers you are looking for."

I'm not asking you what your club does, or how happy you are with your club. What I asked was how would you feel about the Kukkiwon if your club issued Kukkiwon certification and only Kukkiwon certification, given the fact that your club follows the Kukkiwon curriculum. You didn't answer that, but again, that's ok. As for me getting the answers i am looking for, at least from you, you first have to understand the question that I am asking.


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## Kacey (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> Actually, no I did not.
> 
> You said this:the  signatures of my instructor, and his, certifying that I had indeed met  all the requirements, were then, and remain now, the only signatures I  care about.
> 
> ...



There is more than one senior in my organization - for them *all *to die is unlikely, as there are others who are continuing to learn and train, who will take over for them when they're gone.  Also, there are other seniors I know and respect in other organizations to whom I could go if necessary.  For myself, I'm much more interested in continuing to learn and grow than I am in rank; after 24 years of training rank is not really what's important to me.  I can get feedback from anyone - even a white belt can tell me if I'm in a good walking stance or not, or if my timing in consistent, whether the white belt knows the moves or not.  

My point, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I am much more interested in feedback from those who know me than in certificates signed by people who have never met me.  As far as the Kukkiwon goes - I've never been in it, and have never had nor sought Kukkiwon certification.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2011)

Well I will just add this, puuniu is very much set in his way and I believe he has a lack of respect to those that do not believe in what he does. He is very opinionated and believes in what only a certain group deem real TKD.

In all fairness though he does have that right, just wish he would remember people have that same right. 

As the futureof TKD it will be still divided into mini splinter cells across the globe because senior and future seniors will never be able to accept the other orgs way of thinking. I am hoping that a more diverse section will bring the S.D. part back into TKD and develope it alot farther than it has overthe years.


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

Kacey said:


> My point, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I am much more interested in feedback from those who know me than in certificates signed by people who have never met me.  As far as the Kukkiwon goes - I've never been in it, and have never had nor sought Kukkiwon certification.




And my point is, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I never mentioned Kukkiwon certification to you. So why bring it up in your response?


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Well I will just add this, puuniu is very much set in his way and I believe he has a lack of respect to those that do not believe in what he does. He is very opinionated and believes in what only a certain group deem real TKD.




Please do not speak for me since you obviously do not know what I believe or don't believe.  I am very much not set in my way, and am in a constant state of evolution. I really think you have a reading comprehension issue. Try slowing down and reading more carefully. That might help.


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## Kacey (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> And my point is, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I never mentioned Kukkiwon certification to you. So why bring it up in your response?



It came up in a nearby post, and appeared to be an issue for you.  You are clearly interested only in convincing others that you are right, and either others agree with you, or others are wrong; I see no evidence of a middle ground.  I see no purpose in continuing this discussion under such circumstances.


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

Kacey said:


> It came up in a nearby post, and appeared to be an issue for you.



It was an issue in a nearby post because that particular person trains using the Kukkiwon curriculum. You do not. Therefore, I didn't bring it up and instead wanted to understand the state of the ITF ten years post General Choi. Too bad your defensiveness prevented us from exploring that. 




Kacey said:


> You are clearly interested only in convincing others that you are right, and either others agree with you, or others are wrong; I see no evidence of a middle ground.  I see no purpose in continuing this discussion under such circumstances.



Neither do I. If that is your preconceived notion, then so be it.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2011)

puunui said:


> Please do not speak for me since you obviously do not know what I believe or don't believe. I am very much not set in my way, and am in a constant state of evolution. I really think you have a reading comprehension issue. Try slowing down and reading more carefully. That might help.


 
Well I know I do not have one and whether you believe you are set in your way or not you come across that way. People can say one thing but there actions on forums speak valume. You have shown in every thread that if people do not agree with you or have your vision you write them off of not knowing anything, I know by reading your post over the years what it is about you, this is not my first rodeo or yours. Please do not try to insult my intelligents by making those remarks.

You have said numerous times that people try to put words in your mouth or this is not what you have said, but then you tell them they are wrong on accounts because you and your seniors believe in your ways. I have enjoyed the converstations over time but also I watch patterns of things. I refuse to get cought up in swinging who does not understand what each is saying, I can say the same thing about you but than again most people would just regard most of what you say to your beliefs.

I wish you could open your eye's to see other people views withouttrying to dis-claim everything they say. My grandfather was always argueing over issue's he believed to be right just like most of us now, but in the end it was his views and his alone that made his life worth living for all those years. I wish you a long life and continue success in your beliefs, and I will keep records for my childern and hopefully my grand childern one day. Maybe just maybe they will say see dad or granddad puuniu was right about unification and TKD in general. I hope alot of what you have written and speak of come to the forefront for the betterment of TKD, I have my doubts but I am set in my ways as well. Good thing I donot try to infuence my perspective on my childern but try to teach them what each and every person has to say.:asian:


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Well I know I do not have one and whether you believe you are set in your way or not you come across that way. People can say one thing but there actions on forums speak valume. You have shown in every thread that if people do not agree with you or have your vision you write them off of not knowing anything, I know by reading your post over the years what it is about you, this is not my first rodeo or yours. Please do not try to insult my intelligents by making those remarks.



Just take you as an example, how many times have I had to go back and show you that your restatement of what you thought my position was was incorrect? it's a waste of time. Get it right on the first go around. 




terryl965 said:


> You have said numerous times that people try to put words in your mouth or this is not what you have said, but then you tell them they are wrong on accounts because you and your seniors believe in your ways.



Not because of my seniors and I, but rather because they failed to understand what I was writing. I just gave three examples of that, your false accusations to the contrary. Then they get mad and feel the need to make recriminatory comments in my direction. 



terryl965 said:


> I wish you could open your eye's to see other people views withouttrying to dis-claim everything they say.



I see other people's views fine. What I don't let slide are factual misrepresentations in support of those views. If you are going to have a point of view, at least let it be based on some truthful information, and not flawed misconception. 




terryl965 said:


> Good thing I donot try to infuence my perspective on my childern but try to teach them what each and every person has to say.:asian:



You are standing at a cross walk waiting for the light to turn green. Some guy starts yelling "Cross the street! The light is green!" when in fact the light is red. What do you teach your children about that, that it is ok to call a red light green, that we should take into consideration that person's point of view on the color of the light? Then I go and tell the guy, no the light is red. How should I respond to the onslaught of wild baseless accusations, including but not limited to the idea that I am set in my ways because I "believe" the light is red? What do you teach your children and grandchildren about that?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2011)

Kacey said:


> There is more than one senior in my organization - for them *all *to die is unlikely, as there are others who are continuing to learn and train, who will take over for them when they're gone.  Also, there are other seniors I know and respect in other organizations to whom I could go if necessary.  For myself, I'm much more interested in continuing to learn and grow than I am in rank; after 24 years of training rank is not really what's important to me.  I can get feedback from anyone - even a white belt can tell me if I'm in a good walking stance or not, or if my timing in consistent, whether the white belt knows the moves or not.
> 
> My point, whether you choose to accept it or not, whether it is the response you want or not, is that I am much more interested in feedback from those who know me than in certificates signed by people who have never met me.  As far as the Kukkiwon goes - I've never been in it, and have never had nor sought Kukkiwon certification.


Well said. I think people make this assumption with independent clubs that there is a GM and then 4000 white belts. If i had a dollar for every time somebody said to me "yeah, but what happens if your GM passes away?" , I'd be a millionaire. The fact is that in a well established club by the time the GM does pass on there are multiple high ranking people to continue the grading process. Within 3 years we will have 5x8th dans at my club and multiple 5th and 6th dans, so if the GM vanishes off the face of the earth tomorrow absolutely nothing changes. Bear in mind too, that at my club you wait the same number of years as the dan you are going for, unlike the kukki where you wait the same number of years as your current dan, so an 8th dan in my club has trained many years longer than a kukki 8th dan. Also, if tkd is to unify completely (which would be great), why does it have to unify under the kukki? I remember just before the 2000 olympics over here tkd was trying to unify and get everyone to join the WTF so they could potentially provide tkd athletes and one GM from a rival club (unaffiliated with 5000 students at the time) was quoted as saying "why should I join your group?, I have more students than all of your clubs put together, why dont you come and join my organisation?". It may have been an arrogant response, but his point was a good one. The kukki makes up only 'part' of all tkdists world wide, so why should everybody go and join them? Why dont we all unify under the ITF or the australian tkd assoc or any of the other orgs out there? Its seems that puuni is all for unification BUT only if its under the kukki banner.


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## terryl965 (Feb 1, 2011)

*You are standing at a cross walk waiting for the light to turn green. Some guy starts yelling "Cross the street! The light is green!" when in fact the light is red. What do you teach your children about that, that it is ok to call a red light green, that we should take into consideration that person's point of view on the color of the light? Then I go and tell the guy, no the light is red. How should I respond to the onslaught of wild baseless accusations, including but not limited to the idea that I am set in my ways because I "believe" the light is red? What do you teach your children and grandchildren about that?*

Now this is one of the things that irratate me about you Glen, we was talking about TKD, explaining what is right or wrong about crossing the street is different than examining what people have to say about the sport or art of TKD. Even by your own admission TKD has a shady past but yet each org has there view and perspective.

Let me just add this I teach both views about the creation of man but have my own beliefs, my childern and Grand childern will have to make that decission when they are old enought o fully understand, this is the same concept I try to bring about TKD. You see I do not see a right or wrong but rather people views about what has been written or talked about so each can believe what they choose and hopefully they will grow with TKD in the future and make a path that is right for them.


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I guess its clear that Glen does not really care whether you want KKW but whether he can recruit 4000 members.I do not understand where he is going with you,he needs the ear of your 7th not a 1st.




I'm not trying to recruit his 4000 member club; in that type of situation, the leaders of the club approach us, or have an intermediary approach us. We have a situation like that right now, where a group of about four or five thousand dan holders practicing the Chang Hon tul (w/o sine wave) wish to fully convert to Kukki Taekwondo, including but not limited to learning the Kukkiwon forms. 

What I am trying to get him to realize is that he is not so different from the rest of us. Because that is how he feels, different. Taekwondo is an art of inclusion, and I am trying to do just that, include him.


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## puunui (Feb 1, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Now this is one of the things that irratate me about you Glen, we was talking about TKD, explaining what is right or wrong about crossing the street is different than examining what people have to say about the sport or art of TKD. Even by your own admission TKD has a shady past but yet each org has there view and perspective.




To me it is the same thing, when we are dealing with facts. Of course you don't like it because your conception is loose, whereas I go for the precise. 

There are some examples of things that we used to argue about with the facts vs. "view and perspective" people, but don't anymore:

GM HWANG Kee is the founder of Tang Soo Do. 

General Choi was the President of the KTA from 1959 through 1966. 

Ji Do Kwan, Chi Do Kwan and Yun Moo Kwan are three separate schools. 

The Naming Committee met on April 11, 1955. 

The Kukkiwon poomsae are done with long wide stances. 

Those slap blocks in the beginning of Taebaek are done extremely slowly, using dynamic tension and breathing. 

and so forth and so on. The people who used to be on the other side of the discussion used to make the exact same points that you try to make.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 2, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Bear in mind too, that at my club you wait the same number of years as the dan you are going for, unlike the kukki where you wait the same number of years as your current dan, so an 8th dan in my club has trained many years longer than a kukki 8th dan.



"An 8th dan in my club has *potentially* trained many years longer than a kukki 8th dan".  There's nothing to say that every/most Kukkiwon 8th Dans have graded at the earliest opportunity on every grading.



ralphmcpherson said:


> one GM from a rival club (unaffiliated with 5000 students at the time) was quoted as saying "why should I join your group?, I have more students than all of your clubs put together, why dont you come and join my organisation?". It may have been an arrogant response, but his point was a good one. The kukki makes up only 'part' of all tkdists world wide, so why should everybody go and join them? Why dont we all unify under the ITF or the australian tkd assoc or any of the other orgs out there? Its seems that puuni is all for unification BUT only if its under the kukki banner.



I would argue because that may be the case in your neck of the woods (5000 student club being larger than another group) but on a worldwide scale, the Kukkiwon is the largest group of Taekwondoin by far.  So thinking globally, if we're going to unify surely it should be under what is already the largest group?  Least change for the majority of practitioners.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 2, 2011)

Id love to see a breakdown of all tkd in the world and what percentage is part of what orgs. for exampe wtf, independent, itf etc. I know it would be impossible to do but it would be very interesting.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm not a moderator, but I play one on TV.

Many of the discussions here are of interest to me, but get sidetracked by pointless sniping or plain bickering.  I haven't reported any posts or neg-repped anyone, but I will say that it is at a point where it is difficult to enjoy the discussions.

I see a *lot* of responses that are very defensive, but where the poster is answering a question that was never asked or offering rebuttal to a point that was never made.

These discussions would go much smoother if everyone would take the time to actually read one another's post and try to understand what others are saying rather than building a rebuttal the whole time they're reading.  

Also, coming at people with a terse, impatient attitude is a sure way to set them at odds with you.  No matter how tired one is personally of having the same discussions over the years, MT is full of new people and people that you have never had these discussions with.  So lightening up a bit might be be the order of the day.

I'm not calling anyone out because this is not confined to any one person.

Daniel


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## DMcHenry (Feb 2, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm not a moderator, but I play one on TV.
> ...
> Daniel


 
Daniel, you need to go stay in a Holiday Inn Express - then you'll be fully qualified ;-)


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2011)

Kacey said:


> There is more than one senior in my organization - for them *all *to die is unlikely




That all your seniors will die is guaranteed, right? Or do they plan on living forever?


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