# My objection to MMA



## Freestyler777

In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.

However, I have one gripe with MMA.  That is the kickboxing aspect of it.  All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.  

It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense.  I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it.  There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.  

In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately.  Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.

Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there.  And Muay thai is the most hyped up.  

Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped.  That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense.  If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious.  If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks.  It's happened, even in practice.

So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement:  karate and submission grappling is self defense.  You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD.  I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there.

Anyway, Enjoy the UFC tonight!


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## Blindside

Freestyler777 said:


> In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.
> 
> However, I have one gripe with MMA. That is the kickboxing aspect of it. All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.
> 
> It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense. I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it. There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.
> 
> In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately. Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.
> 
> Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there. And Muay thai is the most hyped up.
> 
> Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped. That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense. If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious. If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks. It's happened, even in practice.
> 
> So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement: karate and submission grappling is self defense. You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD. I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there.


 
You don't have to be a professional athelete on steroids to do Muay Thai.  And you do understand that the clinch range is a huge part of the Muay Thai repertoire right?  There is certainly a division between sport and self-defense in submission wrestling, would you do a flying triangle in a self-defense situation?  

If you don't like stand up striking, why do you watch the UFC, why don't you just stick with sombo, judo, bjj, or other submission wrestling events?  You have a history of bold declarative statements that have always struck me as odd, remember this one from a couple of months ago?



> Wrestling, Judo, Muay Thai, and Sport Jiu-jitsu are not realistic self-defense and generally do not merit discussion.


 
Lamont


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## Freestyler777

I appreciate the reply.  But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago.  I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation.  Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.

however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable.  If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD.  Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.  

Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.  

What I should say is, there is no sport karate!  Karate is not a sport!  Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing.  In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal.  All the holds are potentially crippling and painful.  Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.  

Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented.  I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC.  Nogiuera is a great man.

Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling.  And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.

I hope i have clarified my point.


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## Tez3

Freestyler777 said:


> I appreciate the reply. But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago. I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation. Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.
> 
> however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable. If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD. Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.
> 
> Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.
> 
> What I should say is, there is no sport karate! Karate is not a sport! Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing. In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal. All the holds are potentially crippling and painful. Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.
> 
> Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented. I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC. Nogiuera is a great man.
> 
> Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling. And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.
> 
> *I hope i have clarified my point*.


 
Er, no!


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## Freestyler777

does all this matter anyway?  Just watch what you enjoy and dont do real violence unless you have to.

I enjoy judo and sombo as a spectator, so I am biased.


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## Tez3

Freestyler777 said:


> does all this matter anyway? Just watch what you enjoy and dont do real violence unless you have to.
> 
> I enjoy judo and sombo as a spectator, so I am biased.


 

LOL! then why post "my objection to MMA" ?


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## kaizasosei

i think that anyone who is a good fighter is more capable of defending themselves effectively.  simple but true. 
style doesnt matter all that much i think. the biggest differences are the obvious ones like grappling vs striking and the different strategic applications in situations.
however, as far as stigmatization of karate or kickboxing, it is superfluous to training and reality.  it will depend on the individual and what they manage to get out of their art. as well as those skills that they may have had even before first encountering their art.  

to me, kickboxing and karate are not lightyears apart.  ofcourse the form of karate is fairly different than most forms of kickboxing or muay thai.  but i have seen many kickboxers that were very confident in fighting/sd situations.  i have also seen karate practitioners that were completely incapable of even coming close to landing one of their strikes.
not saying that karate is worse or kickboxing is better, but i really do think it depends on what the person makes of their art.

i think that there are not many straightup lethal strikes.  not only does it depend on all kinds of conditions, it requires a high level of skill to realize such striking ability.  someone who is truly capable of lethal striking will also be able to control his force to a minimum with great precision.

all arts have good things in their teachings that we can learn from.

j


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## Freestyler777

that was a well written response.

i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws.  And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.  

See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!

So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing.  In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool.  I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting.  In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting.  But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.  

Where is this all going?:yoda:


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## terryl965

Freestyler777 said:


> that was a well written response.
> 
> i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.
> 
> See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!
> 
> So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.
> 
> Where is this all going?:yoda:


 
Karate is a quick kill, when is the last time you trained in Karate and saw someone do a kill? I would venture to say Never. Please have you ever really had any formal training? I/m sure so many Karate people going around looking for the quick kill these days? I know when I'm out and about I'm always looking for a quick kill! 

Look I understand the concept I believe to what you are trying to say but it is the way ypou say it.


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## Freestyler777

I really never studied karate in a significant way, so I am just spouting sophistry.  I like that you agree with the concepts i am speaking of though.  

I used to train judo (3 years), now I do sombo at a school that also teaches kempo.  Maybe, just maybe, I will add a night of kempo per week and see for myself!  I think kempo and sombo goes well together.  I am really fortunate to be at the dojo that I am at.  It's the only sombo school on long island.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Freestyle777 the problem people sometimes have is that you make declarative statments and then turn right around later on down the road and go the other way with a new declarative statement.  Instead of making a declarative statment just make a statement but understand that there simply are *no absolutes in life*.  So anytime anyone makes a statement believe me someone can find an exception to it or plenty of exceptions.


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## exile

Freestyler777 said:


> All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.



I'm a little confused by this comment, Freestyler. Am I missing something here? Bill Wallace, so far as I know, the 'dean' of American kickboxing, trained primarily in Okinawan karate; and it's certainly the case that a lot of the great 'sport karateka' of the 1960s were trained either in karate (Joe Lewis) or taekwondo (e.g., Skipper Mullins, Roy Kurban)&#8212;and I'd love to bet high that none of these guys had studied Muay Thai at the time they began their competitive careers. Jean-Claude van Damme studied Muay Thai, but his primary training was in Shotokan karate, and he also trained seriously in Taekwondo. I just don't see how the actual history of kickboxing and sport karate&#8212;even if you restrict your coverage to the American angle on these sports&#8212;fits with your statement that Muay Thai is the sole root of 'all' kickboxing and sport karate...


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## kaizasosei

> Originally Posted by *Freestyler777*
> 
> 
> _ All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.  _



ok, now im lost.


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## jks9199

Freestyler777 said:


> that was a well written response.
> 
> i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws.  And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.
> 
> See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!



Hockey players are wearing lots of padding, and ice skates, and brawling on a unique surface.  I don't think much of what they do is particularly applicable to a street fight...


> So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing.  In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool.  I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting.  In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting.  But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.
> 
> Where is this all going?:yoda:



Y'know... I end up with the same question after I read one of your pronouncements...



exile said:


> I'm a little confused by this comment, Freestyler. Am I missing something here? Bill Wallace, so far as I know, the 'dean' of American kickboxing, trained primarily in Okinawan karate; and it's certainly the case that a lot of the great 'sport karateka' of the 1960s were trained either in karate (Joe Lewis) or taekwondo (e.g., Skipper Mullins, Roy Kurban)and I'd love to bet high that none of these guys had studied Muay Thai at the time they began their competitive careers. Jean-Claude van Damme studied Muay Thai, but his primary training was in Shotokan karate, and he also trained seriously in Taekwondo. I just don't see how the actual history of kickboxing and sport karateeven if you restrict your coverage to the American angle on these sportsfits with your statement that Muay Thai is the sole root of 'all' kickboxing and sport karate...



Well... one of the oldest continuous kickboxing tournaments is the ABA's Veteran's Day Kickboxing Tournament.  It's been running for nearly 40 years...  and it's not Thai boxing.  In fact, even I remember when you hardly heard about Thai boxing.  And when leg kicks were barred from kickboxing, except in Thai boxing rules.


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## Tez3

I had the odd idea that sport karate came from 'proper' karate.
Anyway talking of proper karate I've just finished a wonderful couple of hours of watching Iain Abernethy DVDs. Next best thing to going to one of his seminars (and that's my next aim). His Applied Karate 1 - Punches and Strikes teaches how to use your hands to great effect. His take on the karate 'one punch' thing is of course it would be great to get your opponent/attacker with one punch and that's what one should aim at however it will rarely happen which is why he teaches combinations. 

Small sidetrack here. the Bunkai DVD had me going 'Doh" alot lol! Once he'd demonstrated the Bunkai for a move it was so plain and so easy I'd kick myself for not seeing it in all the time I'd been doing those katas! Wonderful stuff. Lots of 'ouch that's gotta hurt' movements and he was demonstrating many that many of the moves work as well when grappling. Recommended for all I reckon!


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## CuongNhuka

I seem to recall that the rules for kickboxing were based off Thai rules and some of the kicks, but outside that I'm lost.

By the way, do you know what a Sophist is? Because the way you're throwing that word around makes me think you don't.


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## Freestyler777

That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense.  Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and Bruce Lee in the '60s who created 'full contact karate' on the basis of boxing, taekwondo, and probably muay thai influences.  Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do.  Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.

A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.  

Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.

i think hockey fights are very instructive!  They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit.  I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars.  MMA guys are naked, wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic?  BTW, that's  a good topic for another thread!


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## CuongNhuka

Freestyler777 said:


> A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.


 
If you were a Sophist you would believe that only your mind and God exist. Everything else is an extension of Sophist philosophy.


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## Tez3

Freestyler777 said:


> That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense. Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and *Bruce Lee* *in the '60s who created 'full contact karate'* *on the basis of* *boxing,* *taekwondo, and probably muay thai* influences. Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do. Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
> There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
> I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.
> 
> *A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts. *
> 
> Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.
> 
> i think hockey fights are very instructive! They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit. I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars. *MMA guys are naked,* wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic? BTW, that's a good topic for another thread!


 

 Oh good grief! 

1. Bruce Lee didn't invent full contact karate. It's a bit older than him.
2. A sophist is A. any of a group of pre-Socratic philosophers. B. a person who uses clever or quibbllng but unsound arguments 
3. MMA fighters naked... what can I say other than are you sure you're not trolling here?


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## exile

jks9199 said:


> one of the oldest continuous kickboxing tournaments is the ABA's Veteran's Day Kickboxing Tournament.  It's been running for nearly 40 years...  and it's not Thai boxing.  In fact, even I remember when you hardly heard about Thai boxing.  And when leg kicks were barred from kickboxing, except in Thai boxing rules.



Exactly&#8212;so there you go:  the relationship between kickboxing and Muay Thai is that there are variants of the former which are influenced by elements from the latter, and variants which are not. And that is a long, long haul from the claim that all kickboxing is 'descended' from Muay Thai, at least on normal assumptions about what the various words involved in that claim mean... :lol:




Tez3 said:


> I had the odd idea that sport karate came from 'proper' karate.



Yeah, you'd _think_ that, no? At least, if someone challenges that way of putting it, you'd think that the burden of proof would be on _them_...



Tez3 said:


> Anyway talking of proper karate I've just finished a wonderful couple of hours of watching Iain Abernethy DVDs. Next best thing to going to one of his seminars (and that's my next aim). His Applied Karate 1 - Punches and Strikes teaches how to use your hands to great effect. His take on the karate 'one punch' thing is of course it would be great to get your opponent/attacker with one punch and that's what one should aim at however it will rarely happen which is why he teaches combinations.
> 
> Small sidetrack here. the Bunkai DVD had me going 'Doh" alot lol! Once he'd demonstrated the Bunkai for a move it was so plain and so easy I'd kick myself for not seeing it in all the time I'd been doing those katas! Wonderful stuff. Lots of 'ouch that's gotta hurt' movements and he was demonstrating many that many of the moves work as well when grappling. Recommended for all I reckon!



And this time, Tez, you have to actually _do_ it&#8212;I want to hear from an MT friend just what one of those seminars is like.

I'm going to be on sabbatical in the UK during much of 2009 and I am damn well sure I'm not leaving without having worked out a way to get to one of IA's seminars. 



Tez3 said:


> Oh good grief!
> 
> 1. Bruce Lee didn't invent full contact karate. It's a bit older than him.
> 2. A sophist is A. any of a group of pre-Socratic philosophers. B. a person who uses clever or quibbllng but unsound arguments
> 3. MMA fighters naked... what can I say other than are you sure you're not trolling here?



So far as 1 is concerned, one need merely look at folks like Mas Oyama and John Bluming to see exactly how full contact Kyokushin is... and Mas O. was 17 years older than BL.


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## Bodhisattva

Freestyler777 said:


> In general, I enjoy watching MMA, and I am going to watch the new UFC tonight.
> 
> However, I have one gripe with MMA. That is the kickboxing aspect of it. All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.


 
Do you have any proof of this?  I've never heard that.



Freestyler777 said:


> It is my opinion that karate and submission grappling is self defense. I like the submission aspect of MMA, but I don't like the Muay thai aspect of it. There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts, and all the shifting emphasis on standup does is create more cuts and blood, and more brutality for the image of the sport.


 
There are rarely one punch or one kick knockouts in any striking sport.



Freestyler777 said:


> In the old days, people would clinch and go to the ground almost immediately. Nowadays, people willfully stay standing just to entertain the audience or to win a judge's decision.


 
In the old days, people went to the ground almost immediately because alot of opponents didn't know ground, and didn't know guard at all.  So they would go to ground to take advantage of that weakness.  Now, most of the people who enter the cage know the ground - so people have had to adapt their game and learn stand up again.




Freestyler777 said:


> Karate, and all it's variants, is the most underrated martial art out there. And Muay thai is the most hyped up.


 
I've seen very few Karate guys who could actually fight.  Most of those that can fight train a lot like boxers and not very much like Karateka.



Freestyler777 said:


> Submission grappling, Sombo, and BJJ is not overhyped. That is because in grappling/Jujitsu there is no division between sport and self defense. If you don't tap out from a choke, you go unconcious. If you dont tap out from an arm or leglock, the limb breaks. It's happened, even in practice..


 
Sure there is a division.  You can't eye gouge your opponent in sport.  But if you're *already a good grappler,* then the "dirty tricks" can really change the game.




Freestyler777 said:


> So I must conclude this tirade with a bold declarative statement: karate and submission grappling is self defense. You don't have to be a professional athlete on steroids to know SD. I think Muay Thai and MMA is a little bit out there..


 
Then you should go take some classes at a respected school. They are two of the best fighting systems out there.  



Freestyler777 said:


> Anyway, Enjoy the UFC tonight!


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## Bodhisattva

Freestyler777 said:


> I appreciate the reply. But dont hold me to what i wrote all that time ago. I am trying to think things out and come to conclusions based on logic and observation. Sometimes i have bad days, indeed.
> 
> however, it is my belief that unless you knock someone out with one punch or kick, the clinch and ground is almost inevitable. If that is so, than endurance fighting is not as useful as quick-kill fighting for SD. Boxing and Muay Thai are VERY DIFFICULT sports to practice, but dont involve the ground, and dont deal with the essence of self-defense- to stop the attacker in as little time as possible.
> 
> Karate is designed, ideally, to disable or kill the opponent with one blow.
> 
> What I should say is, there is no sport karate! Karate is not a sport! Non lethal striking is boxing/kickboxing. In submission grappling, there is no distinction between lethal/nonlethal. All the holds are potentially crippling and painful. Submission grappling can be practiced as a sport, with competitions and sparring, without fatality and injury.
> 
> Take away the gloves and the time limits and referee intervention and MMA will become more submission oriented. I prefer judo/sombo as a spectator, but I enjoyed tonight's UFC. Nogiuera is a great man.
> 
> Anyway, what i am trying to say is kickboxing is endurance-based and non-lethal, and is not as natural as grappling. And people have overlooked karate for a long time now.
> 
> I hope i have clarified my point.


 
Yes.  Your point is clear.


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## ChadWarner

Well it is probabley not the art in and of itself but the practitioner.  Cung le dismanted an mma fighter at an event in San Jose using using a rather large arsenal of weapons.   He cut his teeth in the chinese full contact world of San Shou.  It is the person and the persons teacher that allows them to excell in any arena--- not the system they study.  

Sure the average martial artist doesnt train the way profesionals train-  They have other responsibilities.   

My objection to MMA does not exist.  Run what you brung and see how it works out.  Most bouts end in submission or tko or ko-  There is not a whole lot of room for dishonesty, one mistake and it is over.  I appreciate the fierce competitive nature and quik endings.  

Great sport but it is not new, just reinvented and remarketed to the U.S.


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## Bodhisattva

ChadWarner said:


> Great sport but it is not new, just reinvented and remarketed to the U.S.


 
It actually existed in the US ages ago as "Catch as Catch Can"

Fighting really isn't new anywhere.

Even Abe Lincoln (I'm not kidding) was said to be a fearsome Catch as Catch Can opponent..

When I read that, I took it with a grain of salt - as I recall he had some kind of health problems, didn't he?


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## Tez3

Catch as catch can is still practised here but it's a wrestling style not MMA.


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## The Last Legionary

> All kickboxing/sport karate can be traced back to Muay Thai in one way shape or form.



Please be sure to contact the French and let them know this. The Savate folks will appreciate the clarification.
They might ask for some facts to support it. I'm sure you'll be able to show how Muay Thai influenced Savate's development in the 1800's.




> go to the ground almost immediately



I'll assume that this is in reference to the sport of cage fighting, and not referring to the wider world of martial arts and self defense.


Personally, the amount of people making broad generic and clueless statements continues to amaze me. I think they should be fined, $1 per error.


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## Bodhisattva

The Last Legionary said:


> Please be sure to contact the French and let them know this. The Savate folks will appreciate the clarification.
> They might ask for some facts to support it. I'm sure you'll be able to show how Muay Thai influenced Savate's development in the 1800's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll assume that this is in reference to the sport of cage fighting, and not referring to the wider world of martial arts and self defense.
> 
> 
> Personally, the amount of people making broad generic and clueless statements continues to amaze me. I think they should be fined, $1 per error.



Why are you so arrogant?

Do you get some kind of kick out of calling people "clueless?"


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## Brian R. VanCise

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Brian R. VanCise
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*


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## zDom

The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.

i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ 

But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...


In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?

It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.

Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.

Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?

...


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## Tez3

zDom said:


> *The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.*
> 
> i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ
> 
> But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...
> 
> 
> In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for *MMA buffet-style martial artists?*
> 
> It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.
> 
> Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.
> 
> Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?
> 
> ...


 

C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work. 
You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background. 
I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?


----------



## zDom

Tez3 said:


> C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work.
> You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background.
> I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?



You are correct. My apologies.

Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say SOME (many?) MMAers?

Or maybe U.S. MMAers?

It seems from both what I see in the media and in discussions here that the "MMA cultures" here and across the pond differ. Much.

A lot of this comes, no doubt, from U.S. announcers who seem to fit the description in my previous post  which in turn, influences up-and-coming MMAers.

In any case, please do accept my apology: I need to remember this is an international forum


----------



## zDom

Tez3 said:


> C'mon be fair, that's a rather insulting thing to say. All MMAers? I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who does MMA on the history of the sport as to where it comes from. And we aren't willing to take the time to train properly eh? Well I'm black belt TSD, I know many who are black belt TKD, I know one who is WC, a great many like my instructor have come from full contact karate. You will not hear people on this side of the pond saying all kicking is MT and all grappling is BJJ though we do acknowledge their uses and train in them, many for years and obtain high grades through hard work.
> You know nothing of the people I know who all train hard, are good martial artists...most of them in TMA as well as MMA so you cannot undrstand actually how insulting you are! Even many of your UFC 'stars' come from a TMA background.
> I don't come on here disrespecting any other style so why is it ok to slag off MMA?



Please note: "Buffet-style MMAers" definately does NOT apply to you in that  you, as noted in your post, invested enough time in a single martial art to achieve the rank of black belt.

The type I specifically meant with that comment are those who go train 3 months with a Muay Thai trainer, 4 months with a BJJ trainer, 3 months with a boxing trainer (while spending most of their time pumping iron and in tattoo shops ) and then put on their resume:

"Expert in Muay Thai, BJJ and boxing"


----------



## Tez3

No worries as they say in Oz! I have a friend who lurks on MT, has posted once and I shall try and persuade to post more. He is a pro MMA fighter and also a coach. It would be good to get a pro fighters point of view. he's very well respected over here.
A British promotion Cagewarriors is putting a show on in Florida shortly with British fighters on it and of course some Americans! This is the first trial poster as they have just chosen the name of the show by a competition, I won't tell you how much you wouldn't have like some of the titles lol! Dan Hardy, Andre Winner and Jummy Wallhead are all very talented fighters.


----------



## Odin

zDom said:


> The "History of Martial Arts According to the MMAers" kind of annoys me too.
> 
> i.e., that all kicking goes back to Muay Thai and all grappling is BJJ
> 
> But as for Savate, the French sailors picked it up from the Orient, so ...
> 
> 
> In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?
> 
> It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.
> 
> Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.
> 
> Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?
> 
> ...


 
You know what annoys me, the romantic viewpoint that more tradional martial artists Seem to have on what martial arts actually are. ''It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.''

]That&#8217;s not a very intelligent statement&#8230;&#8230;so are you saying then because I can watch a chuck norris film and copy a karate/Tkd side kick, tkd and karate are therefore easy to learn?..or because I can mimic a jab cross combo I can now jump into a bro boxing ring and compete??

Fyi&#8230;you do not swing your leg in a Muay Thai power angle kick, your leg comes up and then through, the power is generated by the turning of hip and the core muscles, this is actually a very unnatural movement and takes a long time to master...just because something looks simple it does not mean it is, I actually know of quite a view people that have left other arts for Muay Thai who struggled a great deal with the techniques particularly the 'simple' kicks.

''Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.''

Again a sweeping statement with no evidence to support it, I could say that tradional martial arts are more suited to the 'armchair martial artist' ones that focus more of theories of what 'might' happen if they strike your jugular with their index finger rather then what would happen if you actually did&#8230;.a sweeping statement btw not one I believe.

Why do Olympic Tkd'ers where chest protectors? why I thought that would be obvious the same reason Olympic boxers where head gear&#8230;because they have to, it&#8217;s a point system in effect the aim is not to knock out or damage your opponent.

Muay Thai fighters in the first couple of interclub fights where padding too, the aim of this is to get used to fighting under pressure in a ring environment, it&#8217;s a learning tool, your not going to learn if after one kick you cannot fight&#8230;&#8230;that&#8217;s professional Muay Thai

Its apparent from many of your posts that you have a biased dislike for MMA, its getting to a point now where you don&#8217;t seem to have any sound arguments against it, your verging on trolling bro

Something for you to think about, when you were at highschool I presume you learnt both maths, english and science at separate times and from different teaches that all specialised at those subjects, are you saying you think you would have done better ar school if you leanred all three from just one teacher that didnt specialise in either?, are you saying you feel you did not get complete learning from this 'buffet'  stlye of teaching?maybe your maths is abit off because your english teacher didn&#8217;t teach you it??


----------



## Blindside

zDom said:


> Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?


 
So they don't accidentally hurt themselves with all the chest bumping?



> Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking....


 
How do you define "refined?"  And I'd really really like to see you back up "more powerful." 

Lamont


----------



## meth18au

zDom said:


> In any case, Muah Thai is not the end-all, be-all in kicking. My opinion of why MT is the flavor of choice for MMA buffet-style martial artists?
> 
> It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.
> 
> Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.
> 
> Something to think about: ever wonder why Olympic style TKD competitors wear chest protectors and MT competitors don't?




Buffet style martial artists?  So would you advocate learning one, and only one art?  That's a bit closed minded....I don't think MMA guys and gals would take kindly to being called buffet style martial artists.

The Thai roundhouse kick is not an easy kick to pick up.  Many people I know have never been able to grasp the concept of it.  To really be able to rotate your hip and send that leg flying around is not as easy as it looks.  Just out of curiosity, what would a more 'refined and powerful' style of kick be?  And why? Muay Thai requires the investment of plenty of time into mastering it's techniques- why would you think it requires any less than another art?

Have I ever wondered why Olympic TKD competitors wear chest pads?  Because of the point sparring system probably, and to make it more accessible to the general populace.  Why don't MT competitors wear the gear?  For many reasons- but what exactly do you mean to imply with that comment?


----------



## The Last Legionary

> Buffet style martial artists?



When did this conversation switch to discussing Kenpo?


----------



## Traditionalist

I do agree that Muay Thai is an excellent sport, if you'er doing Muay Thai right. Their kicks are devistating. But I do have to say that MMA "Muay Thai" that MMAers claim to know has never come close to what I see the young men in Thailand do. Most Muay Thai fighters end their career in their late teens or early twenties because the martial art is so powerful and damaging. If you know anything about Muay Thai in Thailand you also know that these young men spend most of their adolescents working on their kicks so they become devastating weapons in the ring. I personally believe that almost, and I say almost, no on in the MMA circuit have Muay Thai kicks on the same level as Muay Thai fighters. And the proof is that non-Thai persons still have a hard time beating a Thai fighter. And its not because it comes down to a decision, most of the time it comes down to a KO. And I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up about MMA. No one their claims to be just a one art student (although I'm sure there are some like the Gracie's) so in a sense they are saying they are a buffet. MMA is getting like all other contact sports there are too many rules and slowly but surely the aspect of it simulating real fighting will be lost. Because I know if I'm in a real fight I'm going to be stomping someone on the ground.


----------



## Tez3

We are sponsored by Fairtex and we send our MMA fighters to Bangkok to train at Fairtex's boxing camp with some of the best MT fighters/trainers in Thailand. This isn't the 'tourist' place, this is the concrete floor 'train for hours' a day place. 
No one in MMA is saying it's 'real' fighting as in street/self defence fighting, it's a sport. Of course it has rules. It wasn't intended to simulate real fights, it's a sport! Most MMA fighters know that because it's a sport! It's the same as the full contact karate, the full contact NT fights,western boxing, they are sports!
If caught in a street fight/self defence situation how would a MT fight? Not like he does in the ring that's for sure.
Separate MMA from what happens outside the ring/cage please.


----------



## matt.m

I am not the biggest fan of MMA either, however......it is a lot easier to train in an MMA gym and begin fighting than it is to belt up in hapkido and yudo.  At least doing it the hard way my statement is true.

I have no real gripe or complaint about MMA perse, actually if it is a continuous fight then it can be enjoyable.  However, I have seen people come off the street and "Throw" their leg up and call it a kick.  Sorry, but their is no proper chamber, hip rotation, or power.  It is just a slung leg.

The same is true about yudo.....I have had bjj and mma guys come and give my class a try.  Well, not to be rude or blunt but I am a technique junkie.  The same core group I began teaching in June of last year wont be testing for yellow until April of this year after our convention.

So after their "Free" trial workout I never saw the bjj or mma folks again.  What a shame, my motto is "The more the merrier."

I do like the idea of MMA, but it is a hodgepodge of "Favored" techniques for the Octogon.  If that is what spins your wheels then I am happy for you.  Just train hard and be considerate of others.

I have a few pals that I work with that participate and train in MMA.  The general consensus from them is "It's a sport not a self defense art."  Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Okinawan Karate, Shotokan Karate, Aikido are arts that are designed for someone to effectively and efficiently protect themselves.  Yep they(TKD/Karate and Judo) have sport or contest aspects but they are defense arts first and constest sports second.  And all of this is ok, if taken in context that it is a sport.  I mean gee, in tkd sparring we call it "Two people fighting" or a "TKD fight" but they are really very controlled contests based on points.  Same with Yudo.  Although the only padding you get there is the mat that you don't want to get thrown on.  In St. L we have former Kempo trainees, and folks from other styles.  They are always welcome.  I have found that asking someone how they initially learned a technique and going from there is much easier on the person and I to help them with hapkido, yudo, or tae kwon do.  It is also about delivery.......say for instance, I would say something to the effect of "The way we do it here is this." Followed by a demonstration of what I was trying to get across.

Everyone wants to be taught and led well.  That is the instructors job to do that, it isn't the students fault if they are taught wrong.  As far as this whole nudity business is concerned, well gee.......go pick up the newest issue of Black Belt mag. and read the article on Pancration.


----------



## matt.m

Tez3 said:


> We are sponsored by Fairtex and we send our MMA fighters to Bangkok to train at Fairtex's boxing camp with some of the best MT fighters/trainers in Thailand. This isn't the 'tourist' place, this is the concrete floor 'train for hours' a day place.
> No one in MMA is saying it's 'real' fighting as in street/self defence fighting, it's a sport. Of course it has rules. It wasn't intended to simulate real fights, it's a sport! Most MMA fighters know that because it's a sport! It's the same as the full contact karate, the full contact NT fights,western boxing, they are sports!
> If caught in a street fight/self defence situation how would a MT fight? Not like he does in the ring that's for sure.
> Separate MMA from what happens outside the ring/cage please.


 

Great post.  I do agree indeed.


----------



## matt.m

Odin said:


> You know what annoys me, the romantic viewpoint that more tradional martial artists Seem to have on what martial arts actually are. ''It is the easiest to pick up. I've seen hundreds of white belts over the years who can sling their leg in a MT-style roundhouse right off the street.''
> 
> ]Thats not a very intelligent statementso are you saying then because I can watch a chuck norris film and copy a karate/Tkd side kick, tkd and karate are therefore easy to learn?..or because I can mimic a jab cross combo I can now jump into a bro boxing ring and compete??
> 
> Fyiyou do not swing your leg in a Muay Thai power angle kick, your leg comes up and then through, the power is generated by the turning of hip and the core muscles, this is actually a very unnatural movement and takes a long time to master...just because something looks simple it does not mean it is, I actually know of quite a view people that have left other arts for Muay Thai who struggled a great deal with the techniques particularly the 'simple' kicks.
> 
> ''Training a more refined and more powerful style of kicking takes time these guys aren't willing (or don't have the time) to invest.''
> 
> Again a sweeping statement with no evidence to support it, I could say that tradional martial arts are more suited to the 'armchair martial artist' ones that focus more of theories of what 'might' happen if they strike your jugular with their index finger rather then what would happen if you actually did.a sweeping statement btw not one I believe.
> 
> Why do Olympic Tkd'ers where chest protectors? why I thought that would be obvious the same reason Olympic boxers where head gearbecause they have to, its a point system in effect the aim is not to knock out or damage your opponent.
> 
> Muay Thai fighters in the first couple of interclub fights where padding too, the aim of this is to get used to fighting under pressure in a ring environment, its a learning tool, your not going to learn if after one kick you cannot fightthats professional Muay Thai
> 
> Its apparent from many of your posts that you have a biased dislike for MMA, its getting to a point now where you dont seem to have any sound arguments against it, your verging on trolling bro
> 
> Something for you to think about, when you were at highschool I presume you learnt both maths, english and science at separate times and from different teaches that all specialised at those subjects, are you saying you think you would have done better ar school if you leanred all three from just one teacher that didnt specialise in either?, are you saying you feel you did not get complete learning from this 'buffet' stlye of teaching?maybe your maths is abit off because your english teacher didnt teach you it??


 

Odin, my friend that is not what he meant at all.  The point is a lot of folks come off the street after watching MMA events, JCVD movies, and the Karate Kid peppered with some "The Protector" or "War" and mimic but don't understand the reason or application of the technique.


----------



## kumite

I have not trained martial arts in years, but I see so much debate over MMA now. There are many things about MMA that I don't like, but I am admittedly ignorant...excpet for what I see occassionally on TV. I was referrred to this forum from another forum that had a decidedly traditional point of view in regards to martial arts. That forum got out of hand for a while, but it seems that the mods are clearing it up a bit.  But in any event, I enjoy reading some of the threads on this forum.http://antimma.com/forums/index.php


----------



## Tez3

kumite said:


> I have not trained martial arts in years, but I see so much debate over MMA now. There are many things about MMA that I don't like, but I am admittedly ignorant...excpet for what I see occassionally on TV. I was referrred to this forum from another forum that had a decidedly traditional point of view in regards to martial arts. That forum got out of hand for a while, but it seems that the mods are clearing it up a bit. But in any event, I enjoy reading some of the threads on this forum.http://antimma.com/forums/index.php


 

That is a really funny forum! 
For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?


----------



## FieldDiscipline

That is arguably the most bizzare post I have seen to begin a thread.  Well, on this site anyway...

Regarding zDom's point on chest protectors in  TKD, I dont believe they have anything to do with point fighting, they are a neccesity in the _reduction_ of injuries.  I initially wrote elimination of injuries, but have had a good laugh at some memories since...

Matt, I particularly like your post at #40.

This thread doesnt have a very cheerful feel about it guys.


----------



## kumite

Tez3 said:


> That is a really funny forum!
> For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?


 
Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.


----------



## sgtmac_46

kumite said:


> Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.


  MMA predates 'traditional' martial arts.......it's not 'new'.....only 'New again'.

Greek Pankratiasts were doing 'MMA' nearly 3,000 years ago.....it was first introduced in the Olympics in 648 BCE.  Boxing, Kicking, Wrestling, Submissions.....The only rules 'No biting, No eye gouging'.....sound familiar?  The referee had a stick with which to 'chastise' anyone who violated the 'no biting/no eye gouging' rules!  Matches ended one of two ways.....one opponent was knocked/rendered unconcious or they surrendered......sound familiar?

Some argue (though lets not get in to it) that when Alexander invaded in India in 326 BCE, that his introduction of Pankratian actually BEGAN the asian martial arts....as most martial arts trace their origin to India in that period.   I won't argue whether that is true or not, but the evidence suggests it certainly COULD be!  I suspect more a cross-pollination.....not as the SOLE source of asian martial arts.....but certainly a huge INFLUENCE on their creation!

So wouldn't it be ironic if all the 'traditional martial artists' that complain about MMA......have Pankratian to thank for their art?  I suspect that the very notion is heresy and even stating it would get me excommunicated from any asian martial arts associations!


----------



## sgtmac_46

Freestyler777 said:


> that was a well written response.
> 
> i know this is sophistry, but if you examine hockey fights, most of what they do is gripping and punching, and occasionally throws. And if it does go to the ground (or ice) the guy on top has the advantage.
> 
> See, hockey isn't just mindless entertainment, it's more educational than MMA!
> 
> So I must reneg on my condemnation of boxing and kickboxing. In fact, striking with the hands is the most important tool. I just believe quick-kill is better than endurance fighting. In theory, karate is quick kill and boxing/kickboxing is endurance fighting. But maybe I am biased because i am a jacket wrestling (judo/sombo) fan.
> 
> Where is this all going?:yoda:


 Yeah, that 'quick kill' Karate worked pretty darn well back in the days of the UFC when there were no gloves and no times limits.......in fact, have you or any karate practitioner you've ever trained with actually 'killed' anyone with a single blow?

I think you're buying in to someone's 'Lethal' sales pitch more than reality.


----------



## sgtmac_46

zDom said:


> Please note: "Buffet-style MMAers" definately does NOT apply to you in that you, as noted in your post, invested enough time in a single martial art to achieve the rank of black belt.
> 
> The type I specifically meant with that comment are those who go train 3 months with a Muay Thai trainer, 4 months with a BJJ trainer, 3 months with a boxing trainer (while spending most of their time pumping iron and in tattoo shops ) and then put on their resume:
> 
> "Expert in Muay Thai, BJJ and boxing"


  What does it matter if you can fight well?  What does a black belt matter if you can't?

'Take what is useful, leave the rest.' -Bruce Lee


----------



## sgtmac_46

Freestyler777 said:


> That muay thai concept i got from wikipedia, but i believe it is true in some sense. Muay Thai is at least 400 years old, American kickboxing can be traced to Joon Rhee and Bruce Lee in the '60s who created 'full contact karate' on the basis of boxing, taekwondo, and probably muay thai influences. Bruce Lee was a big believer in muay thai, and Joon Rhee was the father of american tae kwon do. Maybe american kickboxing isnt directly descended from muay thai, but it is very similar in nature.
> There is also savate, which is a french style of kickboxing that has its roots in the 1700's and the way sailors fought each other.
> I really don't know enough about the subject to speak, so I will admit that I am ignorant.
> 
> A sophist is someone who over-analysizes and elaborates on simple concepts.
> 
> Thank you Brian for understanding my mojo.
> 
> i think hockey fights are very instructive! They're not wearing gloves when they fight, they are wearing some kind of clothing, and they hold and hit. I think that is very relevant to the way miscreants brawl with each other in bars. MMA guys are naked, wear gloves, and fight on a soft mat, is that more or less realistic? BTW, that's a good topic for another thread!


 
Sophistry is misleading and dishonest argument.

And if you believe that MMA'ers are being unrealistic, and don't know how to fight.....pick a fight with one under whatever conditions you think are more realistic.  That's the wonderful think about the martial arts world these days.....you can ALWAYS find someone willing to help you test out your theories under whatever conditions you wish to set forth.


----------



## Tez3

kumite said:


> Well, I admittedly have never trained myself and have only seen some stuff on TV - showtime, battleground (IFL I think), some UFC on spike...I don't really do the pay per views.What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. Ultimate fighting has come a long way for sure, but from what I have seen, the further it has come as a sport, the more it has suffered in terms of tradition, respect and connection to the martial art styles that gave birth to the sport.Surely some of these guys can fight very well (though I have seen some pretty bad fights too) and my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.


 
I wouldn't judge MMA by what you see on the TV to be honest. the grassroots MMA is brilliant. the fighters are true sportmen & women and are as respectful as you could wish for. The crowds are noisy in their support but rarely boo now, we had it at the beginning but we have some very good MCs who forcefully put a stop to it. The technical aspects are also appreciated by the crowd. I think what has happened now is that apart from the big shows here, Cage Rage and UFC the people who go to watch are no longer the type who go to see a bloodsport, we now have a big, true sports-fan base. I can't remember the last time I heard any smack talk or a fighter acting stupidly. 
We had a fight night on Saturday, topping the bill was one of our fighters v a Polish fighter, absolute war in the cage, good standup and good floor techniques, Our fighter won by GnP. After they had got changed they sat down together to watch the video on someones phone, then they started swapping techniques, in the end we had to chuck them out as we were waiting to go home!the Polish lad was sad at losing but Sandy his opponent showed him how he'd beaten him and went over it with him which chuffed him up no end! That is the rule not the exception. many fighters pick up techniques and hints from their opponents after a fight, there's a lot of rolling around after the fight in the changing rooms as they show each other how they did things.
Everything on the TV is hyped up even the news reports, the real thing is always different, more real lol!


----------



## exile

Tez3 said:


> I
> We had a fight night on Saturday, topping the bill was one of our fighters v a Polish fighter, absolute war in the cage, good standup and good floor techniques, Our fighter won by GnP. After they had got changed they sat down together to watch the video on someones phone, then they started swapping techniques, in the end we had to chuck them out as we were waiting to go home!the Polish lad was sad at losing but Sandy his opponent showed him how he'd beaten him and went over it with him which chuffed him up no end! That is the rule not the exception. many fighters pick up techniques and hints from their opponents after a fight, there's a lot of rolling around after the fight in the changing rooms as they show each other how they did things.



Great story, Tez, I _love_ to hear about this sort of thing. 



Tez3 said:


> Everything on the TV is hyped up even the news reports, the real thing is always different, more real lol!



Absolutely. The TV camera is a money-minting machine, really, and bloodlust rivaly, not genuine comradeship. is what brings in mass viewership, hence advertising $$.


----------



## Tez3

exile said:


> Great story, Tez, I _love_ to hear about this sort of thing.
> quote]
> This is our fighter I was talking about on another show...Cpl. Sandy Geddes. 2 Parachute Regiment. yep we're proud of him!


----------



## Andy Moynihan

You gotta love anyone who uses the A-Team theme for his ring walk.


----------



## Tez3

He dedicated his fight on Saturday to a friend who died in on active duty last week, he was a fellow Para but was in 22 SAS.
Half the crowd watching were Para recruits and othe infantry training recruits as well as many civilians, no trouble at all, no booing just a very good appreciative audience. It did get very noisy though lol.
It's these type of shows that are the grassroots of MMa where the real martial artists are.


----------



## Andrew Green

Tez3 said:


> That is a really funny forum!
> For interest, not argument! what sorts of things don't you like about MMA?



I get the impression someone is playing a joke on some over-zealous traditional styles, I put this in the same category as real Ultimate Power, only not as funny.  But it's new, given time it might get there.


----------



## Twin Fist

kumite said:


> What really gives me a bad taste is the seeming lack of respect from the crowds and some of the fighters...the constant booing, bravado, crap talking, etc. .......... my major criticism is not about skill...only image and a sense of loss of what I used to love about martial arts when I was a kid. Tradition, values, respect...all that stuff.




This

That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks  who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA

it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)

It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable

I hate the whole mess, but

BUT 
the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are  martial artists


----------



## sgtmac_46

Twin Fist said:


> This
> 
> That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA
> 
> it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)
> 
> It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable
> 
> I hate the whole mess, but
> 
> BUT
> the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists


 
What IS.....a martial art?  Is boxing a martial art?  Is wrestling?  Is Pankratian?  Or do we own consider a martial art some formal asian art steeped in bowing traditions and colorful dress?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic.....but I find the notion that 'this is a martial art that is not' kind of odd.....any method of combat taught by one person to another is a martial art to my thinking.


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> This
> 
> That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA
> 
> it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)
> 
> It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable
> 
> I hate the whole mess, but
> 
> BUT
> the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists


 

As  I have said many many times, so many in fact I'm now saying it in my sleep, you are judging a great many people by the actions of a few you have seen on a TV programme!
A whole generation of people? hardly! i could list a whole lot of 'grievances' against so called TMA people who trash talk, who are disrespectful but I don't. I don't because it's those individuals I blame ,not their style or their sport. I don't blame TKD or all TKD practioners just because i meet one person who did TKD and was an idiot!
How dare you malign a sport I and a great many others love! You have absolutely no idea of who we are , what we do and how sportsmanlike, honourable and yes, traditional we actually are. You see something on the TV, read a few silly forums and wow all of a sudden MMAers are evil incarnate, yeah right! I don't think so really. In fact I think you are trying to troll. 
A great many of the MMA fighters I know come from a TMA background, they don't trash talk, they areeverything you'd want and expect from a true martial artist. Oh and they don't demand contracts for training with them, they don't award belts for money, they don't give blacks belts to 6 year olds, they don't demand money for blackbelt clubs or extra sparrring lessons nor sparring gear. They work hard at their day jobs as doctors, police, IT specialists, nurses, social workers, army, Royal marines,teachers, professors, businesspeople,actors,students etc. yes we have some who are doormen but here that is now a proper profession with licensing and training.
My problem is with people who close their minds to everything except something they have thought of, that's fine but please don't then decide everyone else is wrong and you are right. You are missing a whole world of interesting possibilities when you do that, a whole world of things that if you opened your mind to you would be amazed and pleasantly surprised with. Also if you do that you don't come across as an arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief.


----------



## Twin Fist

Thanks Tez, for proving my point. 

You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.

Which is exactly what I was talking about.

But, if you were offended, I apologize. I am just stating my opinion. An opinion which you then gave a perfect example of...........

Then to top it all off, you had to throw this in for kicks "arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief"

This makes me laugh. You seriously need to think about how to react when people say things like that. For one thing, if you have heard it that many times, there might be something to it. For another thing, ask yourself if you are not helping people think that way about MMA by reacting the way you do.

Tez,
everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that MMA has been a destructive force to the martial arts as a whole. You dont have to agree, and in fact, i know many who disagree with me. Good friends of mine disagree with me on this. And thats ok.

 Heck there are TMA's who's actions I dislike much more than MMA. Places that turn out the 5 year old BB's? they make me wanna puke. 

Buddy, it's all good, I am not offended, I hope I didnt hurt your feelings, if I did, I apologize again

but I have to tell you the truth, you didnt change my mind. You just re-enforced my opinion.

Take care man


----------



## Tez3

Firstly, I am not "man" nor am I your buddy, I find being called both of them offensive.
Yes, I was insulted by your post.
Show me where I trash talked TMAs.
I am a traditional martial arts instructor (TSD and Wado Ryu) and I teach and train MMA. I also promote MMA fight night with my instructor.
I insulted no one, I just gave my opinion on close minded people, I didn't accuse anyone here of being close minded did I? You gave your opinion on MMA people, I gave mine on the people I dislike. That's only fair.
Twin fists, you generalise far too much and unless you've been to the UK and know the MMA and TMA scene here as well as I do you don't actually know what your talking about when you talk about *ALL* MMAers. Talk about what is happening in your country but don't talk about the UK and European MMA world as if you know it.


----------



## Andrew Green

Twin Fist said:


> That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks  who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA



This has been going on long before MMA made it to North America.  The Karate vs Kung Fu, Kung Fu vs Boxing, Karate vs TKD, etc.  Trash talking other arts was a feature of martial arts long before anyone had heard of the Gracie family.  Let's not even mention the Ninja issues of the 80's...

It's also a straw man argument.  Look at the top MMA fighters right now, you got Judo, Wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, even karate being represented. 

There are always fanboys that watch it on TV and run there mouth off, but armchair warriors that don't train anything have also been around for a very long time, they just have a voice now, thanks to the internet.

But if you look at people that actually train, and have some experience behind them, you will find very few that have the attitude you describe.  Which is odd, because if you look at really traditional styles the elitist attitude seems to increase with time trained, but we can ignore that for scapegoating purposes I suppose?

What really gets objected to is training methods, and riddiculous claims, not styles.  But I suppose it is easier to blame the UFC for your troubles then to deal with such things.


----------



## Shotgun Buddha

Twin Fist said:


> Thanks Tez, for proving my point.
> 
> You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.
> 
> Which is exactly what I was talking about.
> 
> But, if you were offended, I apologize. I am just stating my opinion. An opinion which you then gave a perfect example of...........
> 
> Then to top it all off, you had to throw this in for kicks "arrogant, bigoted oxygen thief"
> 
> This makes me laugh. You seriously need to think about how to react when people say things like that. For one thing, if you have heard it that many times, there might be something to it. For another thing, ask yourself if you are not helping people think that way about MMA by reacting the way you do.
> 
> Tez,
> everyone is entitled to an opinion. Mine is that MMA has been a destructive force to the martial arts as a whole. You dont have to agree, and in fact, i know many who disagree with me. Good friends of mine disagree with me on this. And thats ok.
> 
> Heck there are TMA's who's actions I dislike much more than MMA. Places that turn out the 5 year old BB's? they make me wanna puke.
> 
> Buddy, it's all good, I am not offended, I hope I didnt hurt your feelings, if I did, I apologize again
> 
> but I have to tell you the truth, you didnt change my mind. You just re-enforced my opinion.
> 
> Take care man


 
Actually, she gave out that you were making a wide-spread generalisations which is something can that be highly offensive. Like Tez, Im involved in MMA in Europe, specifically in Ireland. Like in the UK, MMA is more of a grass-roots situation than it is the US. Ive encountered the normal arguements of MMA vs TMA here, but quite frankly its mostly an online phenomeon. For the most part in real life people are just content to get on with their training. Ive only had one experience where I encountered any major bias on the subject, and it was in an Aikido dojo I trained at while also training in MMA. 
I recieved quite a bit of flak for it from the Aikido sensei. That doesn't mean Im willing to tar everyone with the same brush, and make generalisations about TMA practioners.
As for the state of the youth of America. Its awfully illogical to claim that MMA is the ruining of a generation. Wouldn't it be a far more logical assumption that any youths with violent tendencies are that way as a result of their own nature or how they were raised, rather than a result of what they do in their spare time?


----------



## sgtmac_46

Andrew Green said:


> This has been going on long before MMA made it to North America. The Karate vs Kung Fu, Kung Fu vs Boxing, Karate vs TKD, etc. Trash talking other arts was a feature of martial arts long before anyone had heard of the Gracie family. Let's not even mention the Ninja issues of the 80's...
> 
> It's also a straw man argument. Look at the top MMA fighters right now, you got Judo, Wrestling, boxing, kickboxing, BJJ, even karate being represented.
> 
> There are always fanboys that watch it on TV and run there mouth off, but armchair warriors that don't train anything have also been around for a very long time, they just have a voice now, thanks to the internet.
> 
> But if you look at people that actually train, and have some experience behind them, you will find very few that have the attitude you describe. Which is odd, because if you look at really traditional styles the elitist attitude seems to increase with time trained, but we can ignore that for scapegoating purposes I suppose?
> 
> What really gets objected to is training methods, and riddiculous claims, not styles. But I suppose it is easier to blame the UFC for your troubles then to deal with such things.


And keep in mind that young men engaged in competative combat sports tend to have big egos....and those egos tend to take inappropriate form from time to time, and that was the same whether the sports is MMA or Judo or Karate, etc....some learn respect and humility the hardway!

Cassius Clay, aka Mohammad Ali used to be called the 'Louisville Lip' because his mouth moved faster than his jab......


----------



## Tez3

Shotgun, have you had a chance to watch Aisling Daly at Cage Rage?  
A cracking fighter! the SBG girls are making a name for themselves!
Yes, a slight detour off subject but relevant all the same. the future of MMA is in the hands of people like this and I consider it a safe and respectable future!


----------



## FieldDiscipline

Twin Fist said:


> That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks  who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA



I kind of see what you're getting at, but not how you've said it.  I think the element that fits the desrcription above is either very new to training, or doesnt train at all.  I have spoken to Tez off of this forum, and I can assure you she is no disrespectful punk.  Quite the opposite actually.  You cant make sweeping generalisations like that.  




Twin Fist said:


> It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable



Once again I kind of see your logic, but MMA is a drop in the ocean.  In that ocean I firmly include all contact sports, film and TV reports that show dead people.



Twin Fist said:


> but not many are  martial artists



Here I do agree.  I know many TMA and MMA practitioners who in my opinion are not martial artists.  

I think this also reopens the discussion what is the definition of a martial art?  This has been discussed at length on here with regrds to TKD.  I do not believe combat sports to be the same thing as martial arts.  This however does not preclude martial arts from being used in combat sports.  Tae Kwon Do is very much a martial art, but I dont think sport TKD is a martial art.  Would I be correct in the belief that MMA and UFC are two distinct entities, with MMAists doing UFC, but many MMA schools training for real life?



Tez3 said:


> I don't blame TKD or all TKD practioners just because i meet one person who did TKD and was an idiot!



Charming.  A saddening example Tez.  



Tez3 said:


> How dare you malign a sport I and a great many others love! You have absolutely no idea of who we are , what we do and how sportsmanlike, honourable and yes, traditional we actually are. You see something on the TV, read a few silly forums and wow all of a sudden MMAers are evil incarnate,



Twin Fist, incase I have missed the point (I've not re-read the whole thread again) whatexactly makes you feel this about MMA?  I think Tez may have a point.



Tez3 said:


> yes we have some who are doormen but here that is now a proper profession with licensing and training.



Which i can second having done it.  I dont understand the relevance of doormen to this discussion, I know boxers, kickboxers, Tae Kwon Do men, MMA men and karateka who work doors as well as those that dont.  You get bad in every crop, but many bl00dy good too.

Oxygen theif?  You Arrser Tez!



Twin Fist said:


> Thanks Tez, for proving my point.
> 
> You didnt just disagree, you spent a whole paragraph trash talking traditional martial arts.



I've looked for the trashing twice and still cant find it.



Tez3 said:


> Twin fists, you generalise far too much and unless you've been to the UK and know the MMA and TMA scene here as well as I do you don't actually know what your talking about when you talk about *ALL* MMAers. Talk about what is happening in your country but don't talk about the UK and European MMA world as if you know it.



This applies not just to MMA but TKD too I think.  I have read a lot on here about the bad reputation of TKD.  I just dont see that over here.

I have to say to bring balance to the argument that to be honest my experience of MMA has been pretty poor so far.  In many places I thnik that 'buffet style' training in various arts produces jacks of all trades who are masters of none.  This doesnt make all MMAists poor (I have met some who are very good too) or disrespectful punks.  Maybe I need to meet more MMAists.  

Its up to them what they do anyway.  I know people who dont believe TKD works.  It does.  I dont care what they think as long as they dont try and force their opinions onto other people.  I know, thats what matters.

I've just realised that I have actually come to no conclusion with this, sorry for rambling!  I hope there is something of use in there somewhere.


----------



## Tez3

Fielddiscipline, that was a good post!

 Oxygen theif? You Arrser Tez! ROFL (Btw Sandy the fighter I posted up is a mod and posts a lot.)

Actually the TKD person wasn't an idiot he was a pervert! He would have been a pervert whatever style he did or didn't do. You can only blame him for that, nothing and no one else. I train with a TKD club every so often as a friend of mine runs it. Good club, a lot of 'ouchs' when sparring lol! their training is as every bit realistic as ours when I'm doing MMA. The drawback for me and this is a personal one is that I'm unable to do the high kicks. That's my disadvantage not TKDs!

I mentioned doormen because it seems to come up quite often in criticisms of MMA, that only doormen and gangsters do it.
When I was a chilkd in London it was boxing that was associated with that, everyone knew the Krays who loved their boxing. 

The UFC is a company not a style! 

I agree with the idea that people can do whatever they want as long as they don't force it on others, I just ask that an open mind is kept.


----------



## MJS

I think that MMA has alot to offer.  IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts.  The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things.  Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks.  Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?

As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show.  If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while.  Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV.  Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it.  Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***?  No, of course not.  You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.

As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me.  I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall.  But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well.  Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s.  Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.


----------



## MJS

Twin Fist said:


> This
> 
> That is my problem with MMA, it gave us a generation of disrespectful punks who trash talk anyone that isnt BJJ or MMA
> 
> it gave us the website whose name we are not supposed to use ( i guess we arnt, no one does, so i figured it was a rule or something)
> 
> It took the worse aspects of human nature and made them fashionable
> 
> I hate the whole mess, but
> 
> BUT
> the fighters are surely great atheletes and fighters, but not many are martial artists


 
For what its worth, I'd bet if you really looked at some of the TMAs around today, you'd still see that cocky, arrogant attitude with those guys as well.


----------



## Tez3

MJS said:


> I think that MMA has alot to offer. IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts. The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things. Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks. Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?
> 
> As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show. If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while. Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV. Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it. Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***? No, of course not. You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.
> 
> _*As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me*. I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall. But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well. Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s. Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.[/_quote]
> 
> I think we are going back to what we usually advise newbies who are looking for a style.... that they have to take into account what they are physically able to do. As I said TKD isn't really for me as I find the high kicks, as well as the high jumping kicks difficult (it's why I teach children _ I can kick to their heads) I don't do Capoiera either lol! I find BJJ suits me as does MMA where low kicks are the norm. Now if I were younger......... what wouldn't I do!


----------



## MJS

Tez3 said:


> MJS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that MMA has alot to offer. IMHO, its changed the way people, or some people, myself included, view the arts. The need for grappling or at the least, an understanding of the ground is one of the main things. Its also given more reason to take a look at other arts, and perhaps, borrow something, adding it to your own bag of tricks. Hey, if I can take a more effective way of punching, and make my punches better, why not do it?
> 
> As for the attitudes....keep in mind, that much of what we see, is to hype up the show. If everyone sat around holding hands, it'd most likely get boring after a while. Hell, we see it with wrestling on TV. Real or fake isn't an issue, but we still see it. Now, do I think that all the wanna-bes should run around acting like an ***? No, of course not. You can be confident and carry yourself properly, without resorting to acting like a tough guy.
> 
> _*As for the folks who think that BJJ is the best...whatever they want to believe is fine with me*. I've had my share of debates and many times its like talking to a wall. But, then again, when the next flavor of the month comes up, people will flock to that as well. Kickboxing in the 70s, Ninjutsu in the 80s and BJJ in the 90s. Not saying its not effective, but its far from being complete IMO.[/_quote]
> 
> I think we are going back to what we usually advise newbies who are looking for a style.... that they have to take into account what they are physically able to do. As I said TKD isn't really for me as I find the high kicks, as well as the high jumping kicks difficult (it's why I teach children _ I can kick to their heads) I don't do Capoiera either lol! I find BJJ suits me as does MMA where low kicks are the norm. Now if I were younger......... what wouldn't I do!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good points.
Click to expand...


----------



## Twin Fist

Tez,
I have already apologized TWICE.
Since you find "buddy" offensive i will apologize AGAIN. I am sorry, I didnt mean to offend you, I was just trying to be friendly. 

But dont push it. You are still comming across as rather agressive, and it isnt doing much to change my original opinion. 

Just as I wasnt trying to offend you by calling you "buddy" I am sure that you didnt mean to trash talk when you posted this:

"Oh and they don't demand contracts for training with them, they don't award belts for money, they don't give blacks belts to 6 year olds, they don't demand money for blackbelt clubs or extra sparrring lessons nor sparring gear."

But it sure seemed like it. If that wasnt your intention, fine. I will believe you. BTW- all those things annoy the heck out of me too.

Tez,
I never used the word "ALL" so you are accusing me of something I didnt do. There is no all, if there is ONE thing that is certain, it is that there is always an exception. To everything.

You are very defensive of your MMA stuff, and thats cool. I dont care. I dont like MMA, but you shouldnt care since it doesnt effect you in the slightest. 

Or do you feel any disagreement is grounds for confrontation. I already admitted that I dont expect anyone to agree with me. Hell, i think Purple Rain was one of the best movies of the 80's, not many people agree with me on that either.....and thats ok. Take it easy

Andrew,
I hate trash talking from anyone. It is the worst kind of dis-respect, IMO. So I agree with you there.

Shotgun,
I wasnt referring to the youth of america as a whole, and I am sorry you got the impression. I was referring to the MMA "fanboys" and the like.

MJS,
you are right, cocky arrogant attitudes are everywhere these days, and I hate that. My biggest fear is that martial arts has lost it's "respect". I see it in TMA as well, but i see it more in MMA circles. Thats just my opinion, disagree if you like, dont take it personally. 

For the third time, I apologize to anyone that my opinion offended. This is what i think. If you disagree, just say so. Dont attack. For one thing, it just  re-enforces that opinion, for another, it is annoying as hell.


----------



## Tez3

ROFL at middle aged, middle class woman coming on aggressive!

:uhyeah:

it's always useful to know what annoys someone though, in case I want to do it again LOL!


----------



## Tez3

Handbags at dawn!!


----------



## Twin Fist

I apologize, three times in fact.

I point out that you were flat out wrong i what you accused me of saying.

Instead of being cool you make jokes.

yeah, i was REALLY off base......

Lesson learned, thanks

Have a good day tez


----------



## Tez3

Twin Fist said:


> I apologize, three times in fact.
> 
> I point out that you were flat out wrong i what you accused me of saying.
> 
> Instead of being cool you make jokes.
> 
> yeah, i was REALLY off base......
> 
> Lesson learned, thanks
> 
> Have a good day tez


 
Good god, I'm English I don't do "cool"!
I do stiff upper lip,good manners, tea and crumpets, brollies and green wellies, scruffy spaniels, Barbour jackets and never ever accuse people of anything, we just sniff and carrying on talking about the weather!


----------



## Andy Moynihan

Mustn't forget the cricket, eh wot?


----------



## FieldDiscipline

Oh dear.


----------



## Andy Moynihan

What, did I butcher my British-ism?


----------



## Tez3

FieldDiscipline said:


> Oh dear.


 
My dear, it could have been far worse! :roflmao:

Anyway to get the debate back on track. here is part of a documentary on a friend of mine and one of his fights. See what you think.






 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkpsY8RFmeg&feature=related


----------



## Andy Moynihan

On topic, I definitely wish the MMA scene in the US was more like it is there.


----------



## Tez3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbAro8C-4yo&feature=related

Another friend, Sami Berik, this I've posted because Sami comes from a CMA background.


----------



## MJS

Twin Fist said:


> MJS,
> you are right, cocky arrogant attitudes are everywhere these days, and I hate that. My biggest fear is that martial arts has lost it's "respect". I see it in TMA as well, but i see it more in MMA circles. Thats just my opinion, disagree if you like, dont take it personally.


 
Well, I'm not offended.  But, back to the thread.  I don't think that we'll change anyones views any time soon.  Certain groups will always feel that X art sucks, and there won't be anything that anyone can say to change that view.  Of course, it doesnt mean that everyone in said group feels that way, although you could say that one bad apple ruins the bunch.

But like I said, if someone wants to think certain things, thats fine with me.  The most I can do is to attempt to show them differently, but hey, if it doesnt work, oh well.  

In the end, I know how I train, I know how the folks that I associate with train, and thats all that matters to me.


----------



## Twin Fist

nice clip


----------



## Tez3

This features one of my favourite people James Saville, an up and coming fighter. He's also a TKD black belt.





 
Perhaps I can let another mate of mine speak for us, another TKD black belt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBpYHwfi4d0&feature=related


----------



## Shotgun Buddha

Twin Fist said:


> Shotgun,
> I wasnt referring to the youth of america as a whole, and I am sorry you got the impression. I was referring to the MMA "fanboys" and the like.


 
Actually, I know you were referring to the "fanboys", thats actually what I was disagreeing with. You're giving out about how some young men act, stating its the fault of MMA. Wouldn't it be more likely its due to the fact that they're actually young men?
Unless of course you're also willing to hold Karate itself responsible for incidents like the Dojo Wars in Chicago in 1970, or the various challenge matches and dojo storming that used to occur in Okinawa?


----------



## Shotgun Buddha

Tez3 said:


> Shotgun, have you had a chance to watch Aisling Daly at Cage Rage?
> A cracking fighter! the SBG girls are making a name for themselves!
> Yes, a slight detour off subject but relevant all the same. the future of MMA is in the hands of people like this and I consider it a safe and respectable future!



Heh, Ais the Bash? Unfortunately I haven't gotten to watch her in action yet, Im hoping to at the Cage Rage Contenders show next month. She and John Kavanagh have definitely done alot to make MMA a respectable sport in Ireland. Actually all the organisers and promoters here have, any events Ive been to have been nothing if not good-natured. Only people Ive ever seen cause hassle at an event weren't actually involved with MMA in anyway, they were friends of a fighter and had way too much to drink that day. They got barred pretty fast


----------



## Tez3

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Heh, Ais the Bash? Unfortunately I haven't gotten to watch her in action yet, Im hoping to at the Cage Rage Contenders show next month. She and John Kavanagh have definitely done alot to make MMA a respectable sport in Ireland. Actually all the organisers and promoters here have, any events Ive been to have been nothing if not good-natured. Only people Ive ever seen cause hassle at an event weren't actually involved with MMA in anyway, they were friends of a fighter and had way too much to drink that day. They got barred pretty fast


 
I have a lot of time for John Kavanagh, he brought Arnie Isaakson across to fight at one of our shows and we had a great weekend. Karl Tanswell came up as well, Rosi has fought for us as well, a couple of years back in Cardiff which is known for trouble on the streets. We had, as you've said no trouble though at any show.
The card looks good for CRC, wouldn't mind coming across for that one, as someone said Dublin is always good for a weekend away!
There's a pic of Ais the Bash on here along with the fightcard.

http://ringoftruth.info/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=292


----------



## Shotgun Buddha

Heh, actually the main idiocy Ive ever seen has been silly online stuff, is it like that there too? I tend to avoid the main Irish forums now cause of it.


----------



## Odin

Tez, are any of your lot going down to the seni this year?


----------



## Tez3

Odin said:


> Tez, are any of your lot going down to the seni this year?


 

My instructor is and I think a lot are entering the grappling comps.I  went a couple of years ago when it was in Birmingham, had a briiliant time. Lots to see in both TMAs and MMAs.


----------



## Odin

Tez3 said:


> My instructor is and I think a lot are entering the grappling comps.I  went a couple of years ago when it was in Birmingham, had a briiliant time. Lots to see in both TMAs and MMAs.



Yeah i missed last year im down there this year, im proberly going to be hanging out in the 'fighters only' stall it would have been good to meet you.

yeah the seni is a good place for both tma's and MMA's to hang out with each other in peace...although im sure this very topic will come up somewhere.


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## Tez3

Ah the Fighters Only stall..... If I make it down I'll leave a message there!


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## Tez3

An interview with Sami Berik, another excellent ambassador for MMA. he talks about his background in CMA, why he fights and how he fights. 
he's every bit as polite and pleasant to talk to in 'real life', and please note the part where he says he fights like a gentleman.


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