# Dojo Darlings



## Rob_Broad (Oct 19, 2001)

How has it that we in the martial arts have hit the same low levels as the Hockey Mom syndrome.  Now  a days when you go to tournaments you see kids with chips on their shoulder as big as the iceburg that sunk the Titanic.  Parents jump out of their seats and verbally berate referees and yell at their kids to  hit him hard when they are sparring.  I see something very wrong with this.  What is your opinion?  And how do we correct it?


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## GouRonin (Oct 19, 2001)

This attitude starts IN THE DOJO. You want to stop it you start with teaching not only the kids good manners but you teach the parents too.

Little johnny didn't get a stripe for his belt and he's been here 2 months! Well maybe little johnny needs to start working.


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 19, 2001)

Parents are a major part of the problem, but I also see the children as part of the problem.  They know the laws about child abuse,they learn it in school.  And children pervert the laws to get what they want.  Parents are afraid to discipline their children, and the children rule the roost.   I see it everyday.  My neighbor( a woman about 5ft and 90 pounds) has to carry her son's hockey bag when she drives him to practice and games.  Her son is 13 yrs old and almost 6 ft and close to 200 pounds.  There is definitely a problem.  But this actually the norm if you go to an arena and watch the parents bring their kids to practices.

I think we need to stop being so politically correct.  Yes, racism sucks.  Abusive people need help.  But we are all living in bubbles afraid that we might offend someone.  It is time to stop this nonsense.  It is time for parents to give their children a swat on the bottom when they misbehave.  That is how I was brought up and I didn't make the same mistakes twice.  I still use sir and Ma'am, thank-yo and please, and yes I got spankings as did most of our parents.  Child abuse laws are good, but they should not be abused.

I used to have kids expect to get a stripe on their belt every third week because that is the way the group I was affiliated with did business.  It made me feel cheap like I sold out.  We had temper tantrums when I did not put on stripes.  I had parents spout off at me when I did not put on new stripes.  They even called the person who I was affliated with and told him I was not teaching right.  Honestly how do they know.  Have they put the time on the floor, Hell No, so who are they to tell me how to do my job.  We as a society are too used to things being handed to us and get upset when it is not handed over quickly, cheaply and with a smile.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 19, 2001)

Part of the problem is the sence that its a "sport" like bowling.  You get a stripe for "attendence".  Of course, thats also part of the reason why people are getting stupider.  They keep dumbing things down.  Used to be 75% was failure...then 65%...now, its 55% And Oh MAN!!!! the bitching that happened when they wanted to raise the requirements for a HS Diploma to include reading and writing. 

Little Johnny has to have his stripe...or else his self-esteme will suffer.  I mean, Mary got one, and Timmy did too.  So you better give Johny one or his dad (The Fat Guy with food stains on his ohhh to small tee shirt) will kick your *** (the -real- black belt with 3 years in the Army).  :shrug: 

I said it before...I'll say it again....  a 5yr old Black belt is a terrible thing.

:asian:


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## Sandor (Oct 19, 2001)

Rob I know what you are talking about. Some of that may be due to children being their parent most prized posession, and in that context maybe they are too, but a good amount of it is just that people have forgotten the important things in life like respect and honor. 

I see a mom carrying a bag into the school and the kid empty handed and there will be a lecture at the beginning of class regarding the issue. Same with opening the door for the ladies etc. I am not afraid to dole out pushup's in this day and age of call HRS if mommy makes you mad. Some don't like it and are advised to leave. Most however learn from us ways to get the upper hand with their kids and appreciate the help. I couldn't tell you how many times I have heard a parent tell me that they have the phone in their hand, yelling at a misbehaving child and telling them they are going to call me. It works.

I have done it before and will do it again. If you are steadfast in your position on this issue so will you.

The stripe thing on a schedule is a completely different topic. I refuse to do anything on a schedule like that. It has cost me students in the past but it has brought in many more than it has cost. Rank, be it a stripe or half belt or full belt, is something that has to be earned. End of story. Little Johnny doesn't get a stripe without the work involved in earning it. 

Remember a door swings both ways; it may say enter on one side but it says exit on the other. Don't forget to remind people of that from the beginning. Training with us is a privlege and parents need to be on notice that their tuition fees may pay for some things like a nice place to study with great instructors but it doesn't mean they can buy the integrity of your school. 

I have sent plenty of parents packing over the years and it NEVER hurt the school to do so. We teach about 140 children and the parents are dynamite too. They are not afraid to let me know whats going on, who is grumbling about what and they understand that working the program(discipline, honesty, integrity, respect, etc.) is something that needs to be done inside and outside of the dojo.


Peace,
Sandor


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 19, 2001)

I believe that it is an honor to train.  I am in the process of opening a new school in January and I am in the mind to have the age minimum of 12yrs old.  I will eventually  allow children as young as 5yrs old, but not until the end of August 2002.  This way I can concentrate on building a strong teen/adult  base and recruit a couple assistants to help with the chilfren's classes.

I will also have a set of 7 home rules that will accompany every child to their home.  They will sign a copy that I keep, and a copy for their refidgerator.  They will entail how they are to behave  and the consequences for misbehaving.  I have no problems removing a stripe from a child's belt or even dropping them down a rank if they misbehave or even suspending their training for a period of time.  I will also have a thier grading sheets  set up so they have to take them to school so that  the parents know a little more about what is going on with their children at school.  

I want to stomp out the idea it is okay for parents to be beligerent and their children to be brats.  I also want to give the best training possible to te children that I teach not have a belt factory.


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## Sandor (Oct 21, 2001)

In business, it is wise to have a USA as part of your corporations 'angle'. USA stands for Unique Selling Advantage. Take those ideas which you have about the correctness/integrity etc. and use them as yours. 

You won't be sorry as long as you do it right. We teach around 200 children, teens and adults. In our community we have developed a reputation as being an old school type school with some updated ideas on how to do things. For us we can say we are one of a very rare type of school where everything has to be earned. I make no promises about rank or time and reinforce the idea of you get what you earn from the first day. We are brutally honest about this and have produced some amazing pratitioners.

If a parent wants that 'commercial...my kid has to be a bleack belt..yada yada' mentality I recommend the schools they need to go to in the area,  I don't need their money so bad that I will try to sell them on somethig they have no clue about. Lots of them come back a year or two later and enroll their child with us as they see the wisdom of what we offer. They learn the hardway, some where else or learn to appreciate the concept that it is not about the end but the journey getting there. 

Read my post about kids as black belts on the CKF site when you get a chance. I'll give them one when they have earned it but we are talking 5-7 years down the road from when they start. I'll never have to worry about a 5 year old black belt in our school. It'll never happen 

I am real proud of that and we use that as our USA. Find yours and develop your business around it. Keep in mind though, sometimes, in business you pay real hard for your ideals on the road to success. Keep at it and it will pay off.

Peace,
Sandor


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## Sandor (Oct 21, 2001)

Rob, you are on the right course idea wise. I hope the info I posted helps you out in the future. 

Some of it won't sink in for a few years. Trust me on this. A very wise man told me lots of the stuff I just puked at you. I have been a school owner since before my 21st birthday. More than a decade later I realize how much I could have learned from that wise person but was too young and ambitious to realize what he was saying.

Someday when you consider yourself to have been successful as a school owner for a couple of years ask me who the wise man was. Till then it will be a secret worth waiting for.

Wisdom comes from many years of experience.
Experience comes from haveing made lots of mistakes...

Sandor


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## Rob_Broad (Oct 21, 2001)

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who has a problem with children that run adult's lives.


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## girlychuks (Nov 5, 2001)

Ach, it's all about living vicariously thru your child. Part of me feels bad for the mothers that are missing out on the sport themselves, part of me cries for the kids that are missing the spiritual growth that comes thru martial arts instruction.

As far as stopping the problem, it is up to the instructors and schools to not instruct, or to assign hard humility lessons to those children that are not in the proper place of respect.  

Thankfuly, my dojo is very strict in that issue- I have seen three kids thrown out in a year when they got cocky in the face of sensei or they abused thier skills.  THey are also very clear in what constitutes belt advancement, and what is required. I am grateful for this attitude in my instructors.

I have been in the martial arts for half as long as my daughter, and the above type of instruction has two effects that I am grateful for: 1) I know that we are learning and not being  belt displays and 2) My daughter and I are learning the thrill of civil sparring, and  we are learning among true students.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 5, 2001)

My instructor only taught young children once, a pair of brothers, both under 10.  As far as ranking went, they didn't get any preferential treatment...if they didn't earn a stripe/belt, they didn't get it.  Period.  I think that's the way it should be.

A possible way to curb parents who think their little snot should get a rank advancement just for attendance/paying dues is to state the requirements for rank EXPLICITLY when they join.  Also be specific in the type of manners you expect in the class and let them know that misbehavoir absolutely will not be tolerated.

I think we were fortunate in that the parents of the children in the class rarely stayed to watch.  More than once, when the kids were goofing off too much or starting to pick on each other, they were made to sit out of the class.  Personally, I don't think I would train anybody that young, with the exception of my daughter (who, at 2, already has a mean kick! )

When I was a kid, I got spanked whenever I misbehaved.  When me and my brother got into a fight, we both got spanked, no matter who started it.  When my daughter misbehaves, I spank her.  I will continue to do so unitl I think she's old enough for other forms of punishment.  I defy anyone to stop me from disciplining my daughter in the way I see fit.  It's not like I'm roundhouse kicking her in the face.  A pop or two on the behind _with an explanation why she is being spanked_ is all she gets.  I'm sorry...'time out' DOES NOT WORK.  My parents spanked me when I was a child, but I don't fault them for anything.  I'm mature enough to know that it was all for disciplinary reasons and not abusive.  When I got spanked, I deserved it (and boy, did I deserve it a lot...I'm a baaaaaaaad boy ).

I'm sick of seeing kids being blatantly disrespectful to their parents...in public, no less!  I have to fight the urge to take that brat over my knee and spank them myself.  

Okay, I'm going to stop now.  I've rambled on again.  

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Nov 5, 2001)

Again I will say that martial arts do not teach manners. People teach manners. Hopefully you find a school with people who ascribe to good manners.


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 5, 2001)

Gou I agree, the martial arts do not teach manners, nor were they ever created for this task.  The martial arts is war like it nature.  People want to instill all kinds of things in their children because they do not or can not do it themselves.

When I was a kid I got spankings, I got a slap here or there when I misbehaved or mouthed off.  So what!  It did me no harm, and I learned not to do the bad things again.  Sometimes I had to have the same lesson more than once, but  I did learn.  

When I do re-open, and start taking children for students again I will be making sure that I let all the parents know that I am not running a day - care centre.  I am there to teach martial arts not do their job of teaching their children what is right or wrong.


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## GouRonin (Nov 5, 2001)

They don't teach manners. I mean really...look at me.
:wavey:


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 5, 2001)

Gou, your manners aren't that bad.  besides when your wife is around you are very well behaved.

In all honesty for any of you who haven't met Gou, he is one of the nicest and polite people you coould meet.  If you ever get the chance to meet him, do so, and consider your self a lucky person.


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## GouRonin (Nov 7, 2001)

He's obviously drunk. :cuss:

Lies. All lies! I'm mean! Mean I tells ya! :angry:


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 26, 2002)

I spent some time dropping off a flyer at a local YMCA a few weeks ago for an upcoming event that I thought the students might like.  And as I walked down the big hallway that leads to the stairs to where I was going I saw the people I was going to deliver the flyers to training in a raquetball court.  I will not comment about their training facility, it is better than a cold garage.  As I walked by I saw a child I use train up until last June.  He was a Yellow belt at that time.  As I walked by I noticed he was was now 3rd degree brown belt.  His class was just being dismissed and he refused to get of the floor because he lost  a sparring match.  He was swearing, and threatening to quit because he didn't think it was fair that he lost.  My first thought was I would have kicked his little bottom out of the school for 3 months if he came back he would have apologize to get on the floor ever again.  My second though was how does a kid go from Yellow belt to 3rd degree Brown belt in 8 months.  My third thought was how can a brown belt act that way even if he is only 9 yrs old.

I walked up to one of my former students and asked what was going on,  he said it was time for the nightly temper tantrum.  I told the guy I would catch up with him at the end of class and asked that he not tell all my old students that I was there.  I wanted to speak to the Instructor to make sure it was ok to hand out the flyers.  I waited up above their class watching intently as they warmed up, and was amazed that these people's techniques had decreased so much since they started training with their current instructor.  It turns out that he has gone back to the sloppy training methods he had in the past, and has no sense of discipline.  He refused to allow me to hand out the flyers for a great upcoming event where they would all benefit.  Since I am no longer affiliated with his instructor I am the competition and therefore evil.

As I was leaving at the end of the their class, I decided to use a side door to sneak away feeling shame for what I had seen that night, one of my previous students came up and asked me if I had a few minutes to talk.  I said ofcourse so we amd a couple others went for a coffee.  He told me how far the school had degenerated, how the instructor showed up only half the time, and Brown belts with little more than 3 yr experience run most of the classes.  He always shows up for the first class of the month to get paid , and is always there to greet his instructor when he shows up for gradings, he then melts in to the wood work til the end of the testings.  There is no longer any discilpine in the school, no morale, most of the students only show up a third of the time because they know they don't normally get their lessons.

When I asked about the temper tantrum I was informed that the child like most of the children there are mainly learning tournament stuff, and the kid was awarded his brown belt because he had won a bunch of tournaments for he school.  The kid is very small and his opponents have a hard time getting a point in, since the head is not a target in the local tournaments.

I am now wondering how much of the Dojo Darling thing is traced back to the instructor.  I believe with the poll that is currently running http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338 about the lack of discipline in the modern martial arts can be partially traced directly to an Instructor who wants the dollar more than they want to teach.  This disgusted me to the point where I couldn't write about or talk about until this time.  I was trying to help a friend who owns a martial arts school that had a great event palnned.  To those that have read the thread about OKKA camp http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1093 , you would know how an event like this would benefit any martial artist especially a kenpo practioner.  It is really sad when little minds control what others think and learn.

Yes I am sorry that this has been a long winded rant, but I finally had to let it all go, and I find this to be oneof the best methods I know.

Lets stop the Dojo Darling syndrome, stomp out the Mc Dojos and concentrate on quality arts that retain their discipline and integrity.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 26, 2002)

Sounds like you need to take some of your own students back, particularly the ones who voiced their concerns over the decline of the classes.  Just train them in your backyard.  Better yet, do it for free, just to really yank this other instructor's chain.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 26, 2002)

Have thought about offering my services to some of these people again, but I would never do it for free.  They have had too much of a free ride as it is.  It is time that they start earn what they learn.  They had it easy before I bought the school and then cried when I would not kiss their butts.  I find most of them to be spoiled and ungrateful.  Thye will have to prove their worthiness this time.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 26, 2002)

Even if you charge them, it sounds like at least a few of them are aching for some _real_ instruction.  Of course, the brown belt brat (three points for alliteration!) doesn't get an invite.

Cthulhu


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## fist of fury (Mar 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Even if you charge them, it sounds like at least a few of them are aching for some real instruction.  Of course, the brown belt brat (three points for alliteration!) doesn't get an invite.
> 
> Cthulhu *



Yeah but like he said they sound spoiled and they might not want to work hard to acheive anything.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 26, 2002)

Just this past weekend, 3-23-02, I went to a tournament and I was talking to a instructor from out of town and he's telling me about his son's sparring ring. His son is fighting for first place when his hand grazes the other kids mouth.  The kids dad jumps in the ring and grabs his son's lip, rubs it against his teeth causing it to bleed.  He yells at the center referee, "look blood" and gets the instructors son DQ'd.  Then has the nads to shake his hand and say "good fight son".  well the instructor tells him flat out, "sorry way to win, but that's ok my son has enough first place trophies".  That's one hell of a way to win a match  


:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 26, 2002)

And a piss-poor lesson to teach your kid.  "Cheeting wins".

I feel sorry for the kid, having a scum dad like that.


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## tigerstorm (Mar 26, 2002)

I think we can all agree that the arts as a public display, have gone downhill.  This meanign that when you go to a tournament and the entire gymnasium clears out because theres a 7th degree outside kicking the **** out some kids parent who had a bad attitude we may be going in the wrong direction.  I think we can look in a few directions to put the blame on people.  We can blame the kids of course they act badly, there spoiled the abuse the system for there own benefit.  But what about those parents the ones that sit outside of class and tell all the other parents that they saw the point there son just scored sparring whether the judges did or not. Can we maybe bring them into the class once in awhile and let them judge show them how things are supposed to run and mayeb that will help?  Or lastly on my main list what about the instructors. Im not Saying you me or any names but havent Instructors through the last 20 years made things more complicated by selling rank?  I would think that the three evils put together results in us looking to our right and seeing a bad parent lloking left, bad instructo, and in front of us is that spoiled brat causing the direct problem.  So Im askign which way to we turn to slap the sense back into the system?
  Tigerstorm


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## Kirk (Mar 26, 2002)

Was this an EPAK school Rob?


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Was this an EPAK school Rob? *



These guys are one of the American Kenpo factions out there.  The biggest problem I see is the main instructor of the school was a 3rd degree black belt in WTF TKD before he started  kenpo and still puts too much emphasis of that type of curriculum into his class.   The instructor flubbed his black belt test  in American Kenpo but wa given his rank to run the school.  He honestly thinks he has earned the BB and is now working onhis 2nd degree material.  If he thinks it that is easy to get a BB in American Kenpo then he is going to pass on that  belief to his  students.

Now everybody knows why I always say if it was easy we would call it Tae Kwon Do.


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## Zoran (Mar 27, 2002)

Man, reading this thread really pissed me off! The lack of respect from martial artists is a sore subject to me. I've have about 10 years of experience bouncing at bars, and I'll tell you that the lack of respect and manners is not just an MA problem. Every year I find more and more people feeling that they can act and do what ever they wish, without taking any responsibility from their actions. It annoys me even more from MA's. As a matter of fact, I've had quite a few physical confrontations with a few MA's that thought their bad attitudes also made them "bad". Unfortunantly for them, they only learned form their instructor, how to assault someone with their mouth.

The bottom line is, how can these children learn any manners or respect when their parents and MA instructor is an idiot!

Sorry for my bad attitude on this post. I usually don't do this.


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## VampyrSoul2000 (Mar 27, 2002)

Although I do not study this style, I would like to say that I do understand what is said here. I myself have seen this being a ref myself. But I saw it from other students and instructors not only the parents.
To me, that give the martail arts a bad reputation. 
Okay, at the higher divisions, I might see that you want to win. But tournys are supposed to be a learning expierence for you. It should teach one what to work on in the next class, wether it be blocking, looking for openings, or even in forms, working on stances and correct hand movements.
Also meeting others and making friends. No if thats not what its about, then maybe I have been brought up wrong. 
I know in the old days, it was different, but that was then...

Just my opinion.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 27, 2002)

I blame the whole thing ultimately on bad parenting.

Parents these days seem to be too damn lazy to discipline their children.  They expect schools and other activities like martial arts instruction to act like daycare centers.

I'm sorry, but I didn't get involved with martial arts to babysit other people's children...I have more than a handful with my own daughter, I ai'nt raising anyone else's brats.  Public school teachers didn't start their career to be glorified babysitters.

:soapbox:
If you can't raise your children properly, give them to someone who can.  There are many couples out there who can't have children.  Give them a shot.

Every time I see a poorly behaved child, I want to hunt that parent down and... 

Cthulhu


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## vincefuess (Mar 27, 2002)

Oh man this topic just takes the skin right off of my hinder!  It takes a special person to teach MA to children, cuz you have to be as much a politician as instructor.  I can't do it.  I won't do it.

Tell if you haven't seen this scenario:  A parent enrolls their child in martial arts instruction, in the hope of teaching them obedience and discipline (training in which the parents themselves have already abandoned all hope of doing themselves).  The first time the little beast from hell gets disciplined, the big beast from hell springs from her perch on the sulphurous rock to defend him!  "I want him to learn discipline- BUT NOT THE HARD WAY!!!"  Duh?

I think the child learns volumes when he/she sees mom or dad get put in their place in a firm but correct manner, as well.  This method does not lead to huge enrollment figures, however.  I know folks who are GREAT childrens instructors, and are very successful (cuz let's face it- there's gold in them thar pockets)- but these folk are much more than instructors- they are "parent diplomats".  Some people are just good politicians and conflict mediators, which is apparently a requirement when saddlebreaking a herd of dojo darlings.  

I have also seen THE OTHER side of the coin, too- wherein an overzealous parent browbeats and punishes their kid for a less than perfect performance, tearing down the self-esteem that so much work went into building- but that's a whole different topic...

I have been mauled by my share of mama bears, and returned my share of swats.  Luckily, I don't make my living teaching the arts, so I do not have to be a diplomat (this is one of many things I give thanks for on Sunday).  Like my dad always said- "These kids these days are just too damned big for their britches!"  Well, that was likely true, but now we have THOSE KIDS children to deal with.  He had it easy.


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## Kirk (Mar 27, 2002)

"parent diplomats" I like that term.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 27, 2002)

It's usually the parents sticking the nose in where it doesn't belong.  They always know more than the instructor anyways.

Curious, are parents allowed to spectate at your schools and if so, what happens if they open their mouth and start to make sugesstions on how stuff is done?  Everyone please answer, it's not directed to any one person.

:asian:


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## Roland (Mar 27, 2002)

.....they are the ones yelling out, or talking out loud during class.
Talking to each other is bad enough, but then talking to their child while they are on the floor, really takes away the good experience the children are supposed to have.
 The child becomes confused as to who they are supposed to listen to, misses most of the class, does not hear specific instructions on what they should be doing, possibly getting hurt because of distractions like these.
Watch out for your children for sure, I think all parents should, but give them encouragement before and after class. 
Do not take away their, or any other students, experience by causing a disturbance.
 The instructors have a hard enough time as it is. Not everyone can, or will teach children. Those who can, and do so, usually want to do their best. If they are doing a good job, 'thank them', if they are not, arrange an appointment with them to see how things can get better.
:soapbox:


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## Klondike93 (Mar 28, 2002)

They want you to babysit their kid, but they also want to dictate what you teach them and how to do it!     


:asian:


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## vincefuess (Mar 28, 2002)

A couple of friends of mine who run a Kenpo school specialize in kids- and they have classes broken down into different groups (not just age and rank).  Some of the classes are little more than high energy daycare, while some are very high level martial arts classes.  The kids have to qualify to be in the "stars" program, which means they are expected to set an example both in performance and behavior.  Kids/ parents who are problems pretty much stay in the high energy daycare program- where not much is expected except that they pay tuition (pretty good tuition). Naturally, the Stars program costs more still.  On holidays (like New Years Eve), they have "ninja camp" where parents pay $30.00 a head for their children to spend the night at the school- they eat pizza, watch movies and play games.  Talk about making some moolah!!

If you know the game, children in martial arts can be a gold mine- AND you can work it to where the ones that ARE teachable will learn.  The key to the lock is having instructors that love kids, and that the kids love- it takes a special person, I don't think it is something that can be learned (I know I have never been able to do it).  A person with "the knack" can learn to be good with kids, but someone who just doesn't like working with kids will never get it.  I love kids, but I don't like teaching them.


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## alan libby (Mar 28, 2002)

oh times have changed - yes they have BUT - we all have a part in times . I have been teaching children for a while and remember the day when the student was instructed to do - it was done. when TIGER STRIKE was coming up through the ranks the command was the word - And the parents of the times were  there viewing the classes never said anything -  in that times students were the students NOT the parent. 

 things started to change when school teachers started to loose the discipline advanatge. { yes the wack across the knuckles for leaving the blockplane blade down } sorry my flashback- no that did not hurt but when i got home that did.

 anyways the problem is MONEY - and many want to be the students friend in fear of loosing the $$$$ - well if the money is so inportant maybe the ones that need it should go get a job.
 to me the martial way is not a cheap tool to insill the partent lackings. or a replacement for lack of time to the child. 

    in our kwoon we get the parents involved. and the has worked in a better understanding of the roll of the stuudent and the parents placec in the kwoon ect,ect
  so what do we do GO TO THE OLD DAY OF TEACHING 
 WELL maybe not cannot afford the lawsuits . lol


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 28, 2002)

The Dojo Darling may be the reason I don't have a big cdrens class. In fact most of the time the kids work out with the adults. Yes if  have enough kids we will start a kids class again (but not for a while I think).
I like , want, and demand disipline from the kids. If they want to runaround and raise hell I can have them run the whole time their there. Even kids get tired of wind sprints every nght and either leave or finenaly ask when they are going to learn something. At which time they get told " as soon as you behave like you should in class and prove to me you are ready to learn".
The parents Well like I've said befor I have a verry small school It's MY (and My sons) place to work out Everyone else is a member of a club that I can disband any time I want to. If a parent dose not like what I teach or how There is a TKD school 2 miles away and another school 5 miles away that is run by another "grandmaster"( he bought and paid for the crtificate)
 all I ask is that they don't let the door hit them in the *** as they leave( its made of glass I don't want to replace it. 
Shadow


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## Nevlyn (Mar 28, 2002)

Maybe what you should do is what some football clubs in Australia is doing...

The parents have to sign a contract that they will not interfear with coaching/ teaching of the childrens sport..

If they (the parents) then break the contract then they are banned from all sporting matches/clubs or they cop a fine..

All in all parents should learn its ok to watch and take pride in watching their children achieve their goals but not to interfear in the teaching of martial arts or any other sport...


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## Klondike93 (Mar 29, 2002)

Hey, there's an idea, a contract that has in big red letters: 

"I WILL KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT WHILE MY SON/DAUGHTER IS 
TRAINING IN THE KARATE SCHOOL"

Yeah..........

:asian:


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## Nevlyn (Mar 29, 2002)

Just the look on the parents face when produced with that kind of contract...

Behave or get out and take the brat with you...


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 29, 2002)

When I had my full time school up and running I was not bothered often by the parents when I was teaching because i had a parent viewing room, they were on the other side of a wall with a large window so they could watch class and the children could not hear them.   Later I replace the glass with a one way mirror so the parents could look in but the kids couldn't see the parents it worked out ok.  I made it a policy that if the parents had something they needed/wanted to discuss they ad to book an appointment for a time when I was not teaching.  I found that a parent didn't want to talk to me during their child's class, but they didn't mind taking up the time of the class after that.  So I made it policy to only discuss matters with them when I was not scheduled to be on the floor.  

I made it very clear that if a parent question what I was teaching while I was on the floor that they and their child would be asked to leave with out refund.  I let them know that when they had a black belt and my yrs of experince that they could then comment about the class.  I had no problems answering a question with asking questions about why and how we doing things during a scheduled appointment, but stupid things like why isn't my Johny a Black Belt yet or them telling me how to do my job was not acceptable and they knew it.


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## RCastillo (Mar 29, 2002)

All the problems that are described on this thread remind me of my current job as a High School Teacher. Boy, do I go through hell. If the parents aren't ready to sue, it's the administrators that have no guts to back up their people. Many of the students that have no values, and every expectation that they are owed something, and not required to earn it. That's why Texas has had 40,000 openings the last 2 years, and, this is why I don't want to teach MA to children. It's my last sanctuary as an adult, where I can truly be professional, and feel good about myself.


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## Kirk (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *All the problems that are described on this thread remind me of my current job as a High School Teacher. Boy, do I go through hell. If the parents aren't ready to sue, it's the administrators that have no guts to back up their people. Many of the students that have no values, and every expectation that they are owed something, and not required to earn it. That's why Texas has had 40,000 openings the last 2 years, and, this is why I don't want to teach MA to children. It's my last sanctuary as an adult, where I can truly be professional, and feel good about myself. *



That could also be a reason why Texas is ranked so low in
education.


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## RCastillo (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



 Gee Kirk, I hope that wasn't for me. I wasn't wearing a cup this time! LOL Besides. if Mr. Conatser gets wind of this , it'll be be like a shark feeding frenzy


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## Kirk (Mar 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> Gee Kirk, I hope that wasn't for me. I wasn't wearing a cup this time! LOL Besides. if Mr. Conatser gets wind of this , it'll be be like a shark feeding frenzy *



:rofl: :rofl: LOL!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl:     Apologies Sir!


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 1, 2002)

I've been chummin' the water...

Da Dum da dum da dum
da dum

here fishy fishy fishy.....


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _
> 
> *Gou, your manners aren't that bad.  besides when your wife is around you are very well behaved.
> 
> In all honesty for any of you who haven't met Gou, he is one of the nicest and polite people you coould meet.  If you ever get the chance to meet him, do so, and consider your self a lucky person. *


Ask him about the "HotDog outside the Hockey Game" incident.....


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## Seig (Apr 20, 2002)

I guess I'm not very diplomatic....I tell new/prospective students"  In here, you will show respect to all. This is not open to negotiation.  You will either respect me or you will fear me, the choice is yours."  Now, in the rest of the world, respect is commanded, not demanded.  So far I have been lucky, with 20 students in the dojo, I have not had to resort to making them fear me.  At the college where I have run through 150 students so far, I have had to resort to making ONE fear me.   He argued everytime I tried to teach a technique and told me that in his vast experience as a red belt in TKD, that a spear hand is ineffective....He had 4 finger tip shape bruises on his chest when he got up......


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 21, 2002)

are  remembered........

"To hear is to Doubt......
To see is to be Deceived.....
But  Brutha.....
TO FEEL........  IS TO BELIEVE!!"

:asian:


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## Seig (Apr 23, 2002)

Amen!


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## Nightingale (Apr 25, 2002)

In the studio I train at, we try to get the whole family involved.  If a parent is training as well, they understand more than if they are just watching. If they experience it, they have a better understanding of how and why things are done in class.  We have a large childrens' class, and personally, I have never seen a parent try to interfere.  Most of the time they are observing with interest, and if the kid messes up, the instructor first corrects them gently, and if they screw up again, they do push-ups.  I've never seen a parent ever object because they train as well and they know that their child is not being singled out and that the instructor is just upholding our standards and policy.  

Personally, when I've been teaching, I've had to bench a child for not paying attention, being wild, or whatever.  The child can choose to apologize after ten minutes or so (and then be allowed to return), or they can sit and sulk, it makes no difference to me as long as they aren't interfering with the other children's instruction.  Every time I've benched a child, the parent has supported me completely.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

That is how it should be!!!!!!!

Good job!

:asian:


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## Seig (Apr 26, 2002)

Can I borrow that?  I never liked the term "Time Out".  Time Out is what a loosing team does when it is desperate.


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## Nightingale (Apr 26, 2002)

sure...we call it benching because it literally means that they park their tail on the bench til the instructor says otherwise.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 26, 2002)

Great!:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Apr 26, 2002)

Good idea.  If its ok, I want to borrow the term also for my classes.  "Benching" has far fewer negative connotations.  

I have also had kids run laps of the inside of the school, so that they are exercising, maybe getting some of the hyperactivity out, and they see what they are missing, while still doing something "good for them" (Like pushups improving your punch.)

Kudos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

but I prefer not to have to discipline anyone in the first  place!!

:asian:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

Stop hitting me everytime you see me!
:jediduel:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

You're cushy!:boxing:


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## GouRonin (May 3, 2002)

You hit steaks to tenderize them...NOT PEOPLE!
:cuss:


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## Klondike93 (May 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *but I prefer not to have to discipline anyone in the first  place!!
> 
> :asian: *



A couple of questions for ya: what do you do when all it is the kids want to do is dance around and play? Your trying to teach them a front kick or some kind of punch and they start yelling and dancing.

Or

Your trying to teach a class and they start hitting and jumping on the bags and other equipment?

This is where I look like the bad guy cause I tell them to knock it off. I know they're just being kids though so what to do?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 3, 2002)

I never let them do that in the first place.  When class starts they come to attention or time out and get benched. or clean the bathroom or take out trash or Kaiaii practice.....

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 4, 2002)

... the old Iron Fist in the silk glove approach. I try to head them off at the pass also.  Since I still keep a smaller club size studio instead of the larger commercial type class, I can do a lot by refocusing them and/or giving them some individual attention in the context of a group class, but sometimes they love doing the circuit training on bags, kicking sheilds, & more bags.  Sometimes they will be "bear crawling", "crab walk", "wheel barrow walking" or "frog jumping" around the mat.  

I usually have a much more focused class and generally get a lot more material taught after this kind of workout.  Sometimes they just run lines, or I have a team competition with kicks or hand / elbow basics.  There are lots of ways to redirect and focus the class in general, or one or two hyper kids, without it being detrimental to the rest of the class.

It takes more energy and committment for any kids class ... especially when you strive to make it the most positive environment you can - while still learning Kenpo.

Have Fun, that usually helps the kiddo's have fun.
-Michael B.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

And rule with an  Iron hand.

:rofl:


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## Seig (May 4, 2002)

Shouldn't that be "Iron Palm"  ?


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## Michael Billings (May 4, 2002)

... ironing your palm, which I did the other day when I needed a shirt and my wife was not around ... on reflection, she is never around "to iron." That's why I go to the cleaners; maybe I need to iron this out with her? Ironic huh?  

Feels like she keeps me in irons,
Yours in shackles,
-Michael:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

Are you trying to be a secret admirer by stealing my one liners?:rofl: 
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 4, 2002)

I have this hidden problem ... sometimes I am a closet punster.  I have learned that it is best to keep this addiction from the public eye ... especially when entertaining new student's parents at the school.  What I think is hilarious, may not be quite as funny as I THOUGHT it was.  PA, Punsters Anonymous (or is it passive-aggressive) has given me lots of support, but I am unable to always control the rampant flow of sheer Bullstuff that wants to come out of my mouth.  With the help and support of my friends (they groan a lot) I continue to try to just SHUT UP!!

-MB  :soapbox:


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## Aikikitty (May 4, 2002)

Hello Everyone,

   Actually, I came on the Kempo forum to find out what in the world Kempo is (I still have no clue!) and I started reading this thread.  

   I feel VERY refreshed hearing all or most of you guys talking about disciplining your kids!  Something I feel quite strong about.  Mostly because I work in a small daycare and I hate seeing how the kids walk all over their parents!  My mom spanked me when I was little and she did it out of love and I have told her several times that I appreciated that!  My dad never did ANYTHING (hope he doesn't see this) and to this day, if he tells me I should do something, I feel resentment inside of me and my first thought is "who are you to be telling me....".  I know that's not right but I have both sides of correct discipline and NO discipline from my parents and well, now I feel like my dad didn't care enough to do his job as a parent.    I very much respect all you guys on this thread who (I feel) love your kids enough to do what's best for them.  

    Sorry.  As I said, I feel quite strongly about that subject. :soapbox:  I've also seen many parents drop their kids off at some dojo/dojang and using it like the daycare.  Frustrating!  :soapbox: 

    ANYWAY... I still have no idea what Kempo is!  At first I thought it was a sword art.  I might be thinking of Kendo there.   

    Robyn


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

Your comments are truthful and honest.  We appreciate and welcome you to our area.  Kendo is the art of sword play....... but Kenpo is an American Martial Arts system developed by Ed Parker.  

Yes, anyone that is a "lifer" or serious in the martial arts will tell you that discipline is one of the most important factors in teaching.  Without it we have little room to advance and keep control of classes.

Come in and comment often!
:asian:


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## Aikikitty (May 4, 2002)

Thank you Golden Dragon7!!!!

   But that still doesn't answer my question about Kenpo!  Is it an art that combines many other arts and techniques?   

   Robyn :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

Kenpo was developed by the late SGM Ed K. Parker  based upon Logic, and practically.  It is truly the first American Developed System on American soil vs a transplanted art from another country.    I'm surprised you have not heard of Kenpo Before.

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 4, 2002)

Little question requires a big answer, but I will try to cut to the chase.  Kenpo combines some of the circular movement found in Kung-Fu, Aikido, or Jui-Jitsu and combines them with the linear actions of Karate and Boxing.  It was synthasized into a very structured, analytical striking system.  It is probably more associated with hands than kicks, but by the time you include the sweeps, buckles, leg checks, maneuvers, scoops, hooks, etc - I think I work on a 50% hand & 50% legs. 

A good video available commercially is "The Perfect Weapon" starring Jeff Speakman.  He was a 4th Degree Black Belt at the time of the filming, and Blockbuster usually has it in stock, or can get it. 

It is primarily a self-defense system that utilizes "techniques" which are usually more sophisticated than the "one-steps" block-strikes Tae-Kwon-Do teaches, or "katas" as practiced in Kendo.  Our forms or katas, tend to be self-defense techniques strung together in a pattern against multiple attackers, combinations (e.g. jab-cross or kick-punch, etc.)   We use Contact Manipulations as we enter into a close range combat situation.  This includes joint locks or immobilizations, breaks, dislocations, pain compliance, and pressure points.  Instead of "take downs" we tend to utilize strike downs in anticipation of the possibility of there being more than one attacker.  I know Aikido also works with multiple opponents.

Weapons vary.  In American Kenpo you always find staff, knife, double sticks (a little shorter usually than escrima sticks), nunchaku, sometimes spears and jo's.  

Chinese Kenpo is a more circular version focusing on much larger circles looking more Kung-Fuey, includes chinese saber, spear, Quan-Do, etc.  These forms and weapons are often "borrowed" from a traditional Kung-Fu system such as Hung-Gar or Choy-Li-Fut.

American Kenpo focuses on HOW YOU MOVE and smaller circles with a lot of whipping power.  We focus on controlling all 3 Dimensions, height, width and depth.  There are principles, concept, theories, and strategies that are well explicated and articulated.  There is always an explanation as to "Why" you do something in American Kenpo and I really like that. 

There is lots of information on the web regarding Kenpo.  You can start by seeing my web page kenpo-texas.com or go to goldendragon7's home page for more info, from there ... there are links to hundreds of web pages.  You could spend a lifetime, and some people do, just answering your question of "What is Kenpo".

Thanks for checking out our forum.  Enjoy your Art and training, we all do!

Michael B.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 4, 2002)

Thanks Michael
:asian:


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## Aikikitty (May 5, 2002)

WoW!!!

   Thanks for spending the time to tell me about Kenpo, Mr. Billings!  Cool websites (both you and Golden Dragon7)!  Nice picture, Mr. Billings!   Sounds like Kenpo is a good combination of everything a person should know to defend themselves!

   Thanks to all of you who voted and posted on my thread over on the General Topics!  

    Robyn :asian:


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## Aikikitty (May 5, 2002)

P.S.---that's right Golden Dragon7, this WAS the first time I've heard of kenpo!     Maybe I'm sheltered.   

  Thanks again!

   Robyn:boing2:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 5, 2002)

Well, I hope you check back in more often with us.... we love to share our Art and Passion!!

:asian:


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## Seig (May 6, 2002)

Not only that, but we also share meals, just don't get your hands too close to one of our plates.  That is the true reason why a Kenpoist hands are sooooo fast, it's either that or eat fish heads.


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## Aikikitty (May 6, 2002)

:rofl: :lol: :lol: :rofl: 

 Robyn


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## Goldendragon7 (May 7, 2002)

(don't scare her away she is a newcomer to our area........ sheesh!  lol


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## Aikikitty (May 7, 2002)

:shrug:    :rofl: :lol: 

  Robyn :boing2:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 7, 2002)

They know not what they do.......

:wavey:


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## Seig (May 7, 2002)

The truth shall set you free.:angel:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 7, 2002)

Rignt Reverend Bob....... then Pastor Conatser  will share the word with yooou!!!!!

today!

Yes Brothea, You too, can walk without  that chairaaaa!  Now pass the basket back......

:asian:


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