# Hoko no kamae, legalities, and other considerations



## Don Roley (Nov 9, 2004)

One of the other threads started out about a fight and something that happened in it with the starter wanting to know the Japanese name. Well, it turned onto a path of people talking about the incident, the beer involved and the legal problems afterwards. I kind of got to thinking and thought I would continue the discussion on a slightly different path here.

In the Takamatsu-den we have a stance called "hoko no kamae." For those of you not familiar with the term, imagine the classic Iraqi salute with the arms in the air, slightly curved inwards. There are other varients taught me by my Japanese teachers. One of them can be said to be lowering the arms a bit to a kind of "keep back" stance.

I have used this stance in training for a beggining stance before the blows start. If anyone looks at me just prior to the fight, the will see a guy with body language saying that he does not want a fight. If the police ask them, they will possibly remember this. I practice saying, "I don't want any trouble! Leave me alone! I don't want any of this macho (censored.)"

If anyone hears that, they may remember it if asked. According to Marc MacYoung, he has found the comment about macho stuff to be picked up on a lot by females.

If there is trouble, I do not want it to appear I started it. Maybe taking that stance will get the other guy to back off. And if it does come to blows, I can be pretty sure the blow will be coming straight for me rather than from the outside. But after the fight has stopped, I hope that people remember that when they heard the yelling just before the fight started I was the guy backing away with my hands in a "stay away" stance. It may save me from being booked into the jail for the night and an expensive legal situation later.

Comments anyone? I would like to hear more about dealing with the police after a situation. But if Bujinkan students just take what I wrote about hoko no kamae and apply it in a realistic way in their training, I may have done my good deed for the day.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 9, 2004)

I believe this type of stance is also the standard ready position when empty handed in Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Keeping your palms slightly inwards also gives additional security when parrying knife attacks.
Of course, it could also be useful if you run into a mountain lion...

By the way, Don, you might want to lighten your inbox a little.


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## Moko (Nov 9, 2004)

I beleive the stance in the original attack was shizen.  After the first part it changed into a sideways shizen.   I don't recall if the hands went up but a part of the training involved was that hands should come up.  
Blading the body, turning it into an ichimonji-oid stance does send the message, "Let's rock, Dickhead."  Palms out also is recognized internationally, palms in is more agressive.  
 The old (Or olde) salute of one Western warrior to another was of the right hand raised palm out to show the disarmed nature of the warrior.  This salute was later made infamous by a countryman of the current California Governor.

Hoko is the mother of all salutes.


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## Dale Seago (Nov 9, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Comments anyone?



I teach exactly that, Don. What's more, it's documented, as it was used extensively in a half-day "mini-seminar" I taught in September which was videotaped by one of my yudansha and subsequently titled "Close Work". (I do these on the 3rd Sunday of each month, for whoever feels like showing up, and recently began taping them as a way of identifying and working on my own weak points.)

This session was inspired by something that had happened to one of my students a week or so previously, when he tried to de-escalate harrassment of a friend he was with on a municipal bus by a Latino gang. They ended up turning on him, followed him off the bus, and when he tried to bug out they caught him within a few paces. The guy he threw to the ground (my student is a sandan and very good technically) wasn't terribly impressed by that and got right up, which encouraged the others; and my student ended up dancing around in grappling mode with one of them while the rest swarmed around trying to land head shots. . .all of which provided time for the original instigator to get off the bus, walk up, and level a handgun at my guy, whereupon the others (evidently unsure of the quality of his marksmanship) broke and ran. My student managed to talk his way out of it. He ended up with nothing worse than a few split-open spots on his head and face.

The problem wasn't my lad's level of knowledge or skill; rather, when push came to shove (which is literally how it started), he found he wanted only two things: (1) He wanted to disengage and get out of there (totally admirable as far as I'm concerned), and (2) He "didn't want to hurt anyone".  (Obviously, this could provide good fodder for another thread.)

So the training session was oriented toward situations where the attack is initiated at close range; then after a bit we began adding further attackers jumping in to help their buddy as the first one makes his move; which then went to one guy trying to tie you up while multiple armed attackers then try to get in on you. Used a lot of concepts derived from Togakure ryu's _Tonkatsugata_ (sorry, but it's a mnemonic that works for me.  :lol: ). . .Deceive/distract/surprise (create "shock and awe"), escape, survive. May do a lot of damage in the process, but that's incidental and not the specific goal. And our basic "starting point" was that dropped-down form of Hoko no kamae and the sort of verbiage you're describing.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 9, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> One of them can be said to be lowering the arms a bit to a kind of "keep back" stance.
> 
> I have used this stance in training for a beggining stance before the blows start. If anyone looks at me just prior to the fight, the will see a guy with body language saying that he does not want a fight. If the police ask them, they will possibly remember this. I practice saying, "I don't want any trouble! Leave me alone! I don't want any of this macho (censored.)"


 Yep... we do that exact same thing... I actually have to learn to use that type of variant of the angry bear in conjunction with de-escalation wording to either back my opponent down, or defend when he takes it as a sign of weakness and attacks anyhow in the Kyu I am working on now...


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## r erman (Nov 9, 2004)

I don't like 'me too' posts.  But me too.

I've taught and practiced with hoko as an 'I don't want any trouble' position for years.  I use that and a more upright seigan with the hands turned palm out for most adrenal stress drills.

What I like about hoko is that it invites attack to the mid-section so you can bait the attacker and 'control' his mind. It also transitions very easily into a 'spear' movement as Blauer would call it.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

> I don't like 'me too' posts. But me too.


Maybe there is an ultimate Kamae.......?
My instructor tells me if you cant find a "body attitude" in the technique, your probably doing it wrong.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Maybe there is an ultimate Kamae.......?
> My instructor tells me if you cant find a "body attitude" in the technique, your probably doing it wrong.


Actually, a very high ranking shihan told us at a seminar recently (no, not Tim) that on the battlefield there are no "traditional" kamae, no uke and tori, no techniques. In fact, there are only three kamae that matter - high, low and middle, of which the latter is the strongest.


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## Peter Steeves (Nov 16, 2004)

I am very impressed with the original post, and the way this thread is moving.

Mr. Seago, I'm also still chuckling from the "tonkatsugata" thing - wonderful!

When I moved back to the US, I noticed quickly that our favorite hobby here is taking each other to court. If I planned to teach martial arts, I thought I should learn a little about its place in that context. So, I became a licensed instructor of a certain level of CDT - which is meant to address precisely that concern.

Well, let me first say that if you have a competent instructor in the "Takamatsu-den" then you already know all of the techniques (and *much* more) than found in CDT. However, I didn't know the use-of-force details. When encountering a punch of any sort, they teach a variation of what we all consider Hoko-no-kamae. What we do is more effective, but it's still interesting to see its universal use for that context.

Finally, onto the topic Mr. Seago brought up - fighting within groups...since we're discussing Hoko - a part of Koto Ryu - it may be worthwhile to consider practicing the Okuden for a while. The techniques there have this situation very much in mind - that's why there are virtually no "finishing moves." Rather, each technique is a way to quickly get rid of the person nearest you - so you're still up and ready for the next (and the next...)

Keep up this great thread!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 16, 2004)

Peter Steeves said:
			
		

> Finally, onto the topic Mr. Seago brought up - fighting within groups...since we're discussing Hoko - a part of Koto Ryu - it may be worthwhile to consider practicing the Okuden for a while. The techniques there have this situation very much in mind - that's why there are virtually no "finishing moves." Rather, each technique is a way to quickly get rid of the person nearest you - so you're still up and ready for the next (and the next...)


I don't know but a shako ken to the throat by someone who has had his or her hands conditioned Koto ryu stylee seems like a pretty "fight-stopping" move to me...


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## Dale Seago (Nov 16, 2004)

Peter Steeves said:
			
		

> . . .So, I became a licensed instructor of a certain level of CDT - which is meant to address precisely that concern.
> 
> Well, let me first say that if you have a competent instructor in the "Takamatsu-den" then you already know all of the techniques (and *much* more) than found in CDT. However, I didn't know the use-of-force details. When encountering a punch of any sort, they teach a variation of what we all consider Hoko-no-kamae. What we do is more effective, but it's still interesting to see its universal use for that context.



I agree with you. CDT also has a version they teach for protective service operations and the company I work for, The Steele Foundation, uses it as the official hand-to-hand component of our Executive/Dignitary Protection Training program. I have a license in that, though not (yet) a CDT instructor certification. _For what it's intended for_, it's good stuff.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 24, 2004)

We train alot with several variations of hoko but also saying leave me alone i dont want to fight, etc. Hands up in the air, slinking down looking as if we are scared, hiding our faces in jumonji while leaveing our middle open to attack so we will be ready to launch into action. Ed teaches many things from hiding the technique so it looks to a bystander that you are just trying to escape. 

Our waiver in the school says the student must use the minimum force necessary to get out of a situation. If someone gets into your house and you shoot them one time, it is self and family defence. If you empty the clip, it is excessive and will end you up in jail, prison, death row etc.


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## Kreth (Dec 24, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> We train alot with several variations of hoko but also saying leave me alone i dont want to fight, etc. Hands up in the air, slinking down looking as if we are scared, hiding our faces in jumonji while leaveing our middle open to attack so we will be ready to launch into action. Ed teaches many things from hiding the technique so it looks to a bystander that you are just trying to escape.


These are good ideas. A lot of people forget about kyojitsu in their training.

Jeff


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## Dale Seago (Dec 24, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Our waiver in the school says the student must use the minimum force necessary to get out of a situation.



As a concept, I agree with that.



> If someone gets into your house and you shoot them one time, it is self and family defence. If you empty the clip, it is excessive and will end you up in jail, prison, death row etc.



I disagree with that.

Use of a firearm is, in every state I know of, considered "deadly force". That has nothing to do with what your intentions are or what you're trying to do to the attacker; rather it's legally considered to be a level and type of force which can result in death (same applies to knives).

What this means is that you are only justified in shooting someone -- at all -- if you're justified in killing him to stop what he's doing. Doesn't matter whether you're trying to kill him, or to "just shoot him a little bit", or whether you empty the magazine or cylinder. Has to be a situation where you're justified in risking his death by the action you take to stop the attack.

Something else to be aware of is that the effects of a bullet -- just like those of a punch -- are highly variable and dependent on a wide variety of circumstances. One shot, even a fatal one, may not always stop an attack in time to save you or the person you're protecting: I remember reading once about a felon who took a police shotgun blast to the chest which shredded his heart, and who still ran a block or so before collapsing from loss of blood pressure and brain deoxygenation. 

What's generally taught in law enforcement, and in the protective services industry I work in, is that _if you do have to shoot_, you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. If he turns out to be still alive afterward, only moderately injured, etc., that's great, you can start first aid/CPR/whatever and call emergency medical services -- the only important thing is that the threat has been neutralized.


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## Mountain Kusa (Dec 24, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> As a concept, I agree with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that. So excessive force would be to keep shooting after the threat has been neutralized. Is this a better way to put it?


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## Dale Seago (Dec 24, 2004)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Thanks for clarifying that. So excessive force would be to keep shooting after the threat has been neutralized. Is this a better way to put it?



Yes. As another way to look at it, let's say some guy attacks you with a knife (deadly force) while you're unarmed and you do an arm-breaking _gyakuzeoi-nage_ on him in such a way that you could also, if you wished, break his neck and shoulder as he pile-drives into the ground. You'd be legally justified in doing that, as a level of force matching that of the attacker, to ensure that the attack will not continue.

But let's say you don't finish that way, you decide to modify it so that when he comes down he doesn't break his neck and shoulder; and he's lying there stunned from the impact, with a dislocated elbow, the knife now lying several feet away, and he shows no inclination to get to his feet. In that case you've neutralized the attack, but neither this situation nor the neck-breaking one would be (legally) an "excessive" response as long as you stop there. You order him to stay put while you call 911 to have both police and an ambulance dispatched.

But let's change it once again. He's lying there pretty clearly helpless, shows no inclination to continue, but you proceed to stomp the crap out of him as he lies there. That's excessive, both morally and legally.


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## ginshun (Feb 11, 2005)

I agree with the points bought up in the first post.  My teacher teaches the same type of things.  Hoko is also a pretty non-threatening stance, and probably the easiest one to take, and still be able to talk your way out of the situation, which is pretty much always preferable to actually fighting.

 Great thread.


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## Elizium (Feb 11, 2005)

Just a quick note to correct Technopunk on what he said.  Hoko is hoko and not angry bear stance.  It was called angry bear due to the way it looks.  It does look like an angry bear in general, but it is only called hoko and is a receiving posture.


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## KyleShort (Feb 11, 2005)

On a related note, when I trained in the Bujinkan koko was my favorite kamae...I guess you could say that I internalized it better and felt the spirit of it much more then others like ichi monji or jumonji...In any case a few years ago I was walking down a street in Sydney with some business associates and a parrot shot out from a tree on the side of the street.  I was not conciously aware of it, but my body dropped instantly into hoko...waiting for incomming danger as I had trained it.  The very moment that I had sunk as low as I was going to go, I felt the parrot whistle over my head and ruffle my hair.  

At that point I had no idea what had just happened...my companions, after they stopped laughing, told me that a something shot out from the bush so fast that they thought it was a missle.  It just barely missed me and had it hit I would have been in serious trouble =)  They followed the missle and watched it land, identifying it as a rainbow laurel (they are like pigeons in Sydney)...which of course started their laughter.

Kinda silly, but even the smallest things can cause serious harm and hoko saved my butt =)

I still practice hoko as a compliment to my training in Escrima/Sambo.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 12, 2005)

Hoko also elevates your arms above your heart, useful if you've been cut or something.


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## Tengu6 (Feb 12, 2005)

There is a great story Ed Martin tells about Butch Johnson. Butchie was attacked in a tavern and he used Ed's Oji-Jutsu (old man technique) defense......hoko with the hands close to your head in a "cowering" position saying "please dont hurt me"! while proceeding to persuade the attacker to stop with strategic use of the elbows. When the police showed up they grabbed Butch because the other guy was in rather bad shape but all the witnesses said "no no no! it was the other guy doing the punching, Butch didnt even punch him......the guy attacking him just kinda, ran into him!

I think of Hoko as my "roll cage", I feel very safe in there. Nice and close to the attacker.

Mark Bush


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## Don Roley (Mar 30, 2005)

Does anyone else besides me practice elbowing people straight on from hoko? I figure if the guy tries what most people do just before a fight and tries to get in my face, chest to chest, then just spearing forward and letting him impale himself may be the first thing to do when the blows start. Then I strike the target from there in a repeated attack.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2005)

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/PSP1.pdf 

And to think that Noguchi sensei did pretty much just that to me the first time I met him...


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## r erman (Mar 30, 2005)

> And to think that Noguchi sensei did pretty much just that to me the first time I met him...



Southnarc posts a lot of neat ideas on selfdefenseforums.com.  His Panuntukin defense in the above link can be even nastier if you angle the covering elbow out so they spear their attacking arm on the elbow.

Don, Hoko is also good position for spearing in to the neck with your forearm--like Blauer's 'spear method'--it's a nice brachial stun.


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## KyleShort (Mar 30, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Does anyone else besides me practice elbowing people straight on from hoko? I figure if the guy tries what most people do just before a fight and tries to get in my face, chest to chest, then just spearing forward and letting him impale himself may be the first thing to do when the blows start. Then I strike the target from there in a repeated attack.



That is actually my most heavily practiced strategy/technique.  I use sort of a blended Hoko / Tony Blauer spear followed with immediate elbows.  Either their will impale themselves on my elbows, or I will drive over and through them with successive blows.  At 6'3", if I am attacked it will likely come from a big guy and hoko + elbows seems like a good response.

But alass I have not been in a "fight" in 7 years and I have never had to use this, maybe it won't work at all


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## Shinkengata (Apr 19, 2005)

We use hoko, or a varient of hoko, in situations of disarming a pistol-wielding attacker at point blank, because that's what they expect when they point a gun at you, they expect you to put your hands up and beg, when in actuality, you are getting them used to hand motion for the moment and splitting their attention by getting them to start talking.(Please!! Tell me what you want? You can have my wallet) I venture to say that you can't talk to someone and shoot at the same time, so that would buy enough time to shoot your hands in from hoko(they're already up anyway) for a disarm before their reflexes trigger(no pun intended) a reaction. I've read physician's reports that state that the time it takes for your brain to process information in order to tell your body to do something is the same amount of time it takes for your brain to tell your mouth to speak as soon as you see something. You know, like the old test of "say 'When' when you see it".

 anyway... just my shiddy two pennies


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## DWeidman (Apr 19, 2005)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> I venture to say that you can't talk to someone and shoot at the same time, so that would buy enough time to shoot your hands in from hoko(they're already up anyway) for a disarm before their reflexes trigger(no pun intended) a reaction.
> 
> anyway... just my shiddy two pennies


Depends on their familiarity with a gun and shooting.  I know guys who could sing opera and shoot the eraser off a pencil...

Of course - those guys wouldn't be holding you at gunpoint - you would already be dead...

Anyway - just my extra two cents....

-Daniel


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## Don Roley (Apr 19, 2005)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> We use hoko, or a varient of hoko, in situations of disarming a pistol-wielding attacker at point blank, because that's what they expect when they point a gun at you, they expect you to put your hands up and beg, when in actuality, you are getting them used to hand motion for the moment and splitting their attention by getting them to start talking.



I heard a rumor that the SEALS that do anti terror type stuff practice their pistol draws from the same stance for much the same reason. If they get caught cold they drop their rifles and raise their hands. For a brief second the other guy thinks they got them at their mercy. Then they go for it.

Only a rumor, but it is something to think about.


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## Shogun (Apr 19, 2005)

I personally like Segan no Kamae. its so natural. actually, shizentai is natural but i still like it.


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## Tenchijin2 (Apr 20, 2005)

At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. If you are not justified in using force, no amount of duplicity is going to keep you out of trouble. Justfied force is justified force regardless of how strong or weak you appear. IF there is some doubt from witnesses as to who was the attacker/defender, and no weapons are involved, then likely you shouldn't have been using force.

For cryin' out loud, you've just announced to the whole world via this forum that you plan to dish out mayhem while feigning innocence. You think a prosecutor won't find this?

Real violence is messy, and no place for clever strategies of gimpishness. Odds are, any encounter that gives you the opportunity to adopt that sort of strategy is one you could have walked away from. Generally, of course.

One thing: if the guy wants to shoot you, talking to him won't help. If, on the other hand, he doesn't want to shoot you and you annoy him enough, he just might hostage negotiation (even if that hostage is yourself) is tricky.

aric


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## Cryozombie (Apr 20, 2005)

Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT. If you are not justified in using force, no amount of duplicity is going to keep you out of trouble.


 The one thing i would disagree with here is that you could be completely justified, but not seen that way.

 Look at this "fictional example"

 Guy standing on the corner minding his own buisness, Badguy comes up and quietly says "Im gonna put a knife in your guts, you slimy dweeb" (obviously I am substituting harsh language for the sake of the forum)
 Guy goes all mad ninja skills on the other guy to stop him from knifing him.

 Bystanders see Guy go mad ninja on the badguy, but never see the badguy do anything.  Sorry, yes, you were justified, but the 20 witnesses disagree... 

 Same situation, but guy goes all "OH MY DONT HURT ME PLEASE" and looks all scared and innocent as he lays mad ninja smackdown on the badguy, and 20 witnesses see a victim of a crime get lucky... You were jutified, AND the witnesses agree...

 Well...

 Just my take.


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## Don Roley (Apr 21, 2005)

Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.



I have the word of several people in law enforcement and District Attorneys that appearance can make a heck of a lot of difference. If people first are aware of two people fighting, then both parties are probably going to be taken down to be booked in. But if they are first aware of someone backing off with their hands up while screaming "back off, I don't want any trouble" then the police are less likely to grab both if it leads to violence. Making sure that the witnesses see that the other guy is trying to force you into a fight and that you are backing away can also get a lot of people to stop their planned attack. Marc MacYoung said that he got a lot of good use out of screaming so that the entire room could hear that he knew the other guy was trying to hide a weapon.



			
				Tenchijin2 said:
			
		

> For cryin' out loud, you've just announced to the whole world via this forum that you plan to dish out mayhem while feigning innocence.



Did we? I seemed to have missed it. We are talking about being able to DEFEND ourselves from a certain position. If the other guy goes away or lets us leave then we are fine with that. But if the other guy throws a punch, we want the entire room to be clear that we are trying to back away and do not intend to start violence.


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## Tenchijin2 (Apr 21, 2005)

<shrug>


Okay, suit yourself.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 21, 2005)

Hey whats that comment that they use in marketing all the time?

 "Perception becomes reality" or somthing similar?

 I think that applies here as well.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 21, 2005)

I love people whose mindset is "If ur in this kind of situation, you're screwed, nothing you are talking about doing will work,and there's nothing you can do.":shrug:


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## Shizen Shigoku (Apr 21, 2005)

*Shinkengata: ". . . and there's nothing you can do.":shrug:*


Well, then do nothing.
(enter the void?)


- ooh, mad spooky ninja stuff.


*Tenchijin2: "At the risk of being the 'bearer of obvious reality check'... I have to tell you all, that if you are justified in using force, which kamae you use and how you choose to conceal it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT."*

I agree with this so far as to say that if you are already in the interval where force is being used, then concealing overall intent with _kamae_ is irrelevant to the legality of the situation; however, continued use of _kyojitsu tenkan_ towards 'badguy' with _kamae_ in-fight could be relevant to the survival issue.

I think before that interval, by all means (and for crying out-loud - only very quietly) use all the sneaky, hidden, concealed, mad spooky ninja stuff you want to stay out of trouble.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Apr 21, 2005)

p.s.


Somewhat related discussion here.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 21, 2005)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> As a concept, I agree with that.
> 
> Use of a firearm is, in every state I know of, considered "deadly force". That has nothing to do with what your intentions are or what you're trying to do to the attacker; rather it's legally considered to be a level and type of force which can result in death (same applies to knives).


 Agreed.  Dale, does the state of California favor the "Castle Doctrine"?  Here in Florida deadly force can be used against someone who has broken into your house (obviously only while the criminal is still in the house).  In my opinion, someone "breaking" into my house is not coming in to visit and to have tea and crumpets.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 21, 2005)

Not only can Hoko no Kamae appear to be harmless, it is also a great way to manipulate the Kukan. The arms can be used as a shield, to create openings or close them depending on the fluidity of the situation. It can also change the perception of the attackers, it can prevent them from rushing in or changing the shape of their attack at the last moment, thus messing with their head. It also can set the necessary distance between the yourself and the attacker. Also, it puts weapons closer to the attacker without setting off alarm bells in the attackers head (punching with the body). 

 Just a few things I can *think* of coming from Hoko no kamae.  (I am thinking of Hoko no kamae in a moving live situation, not a static densho posture.)

  As far as the legalities and actions, I agree whole heartedly with Dale.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 21, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have the word of several people in law enforcement and District Attorneys that appearance can make a heck of a lot of difference.


 That is very true!   I am having a hard time articulating this but things can be done subtly and not be dramatic.   It can appear as if you are falling all over the attacker as if he punched you or grabbed you, but on the way you are crushing the attacker and breaking bones or whatever happens from the dynamics the whole way down while you are yelling "Leave me alone! you are hurting me! help!"  But if you jump back into a posture that is inviting or challenging or challenge the attacker verbally.  Someone will notice.

 With all that said, I think that if you are subtle and *sneaky* about it, I think it would prevent over doing it to a great degree, you would have to do more to "kick them while they are down" and that would look out of place.  I hope this makes sense.   HAHA


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## Kreth (Apr 21, 2005)

A general suggestion: If you'd like to quote several people and reply to them, you can do so by manually typing in the (QUOTE=username) and (/QUOTE) tags (replace the parantheses with square brackets), and cutting & pasting the text you want to reply to. That way, you can condense all of your replies into one post.

Jeff


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## r erman (Apr 21, 2005)

I think Aric's point shouldn't be so easily ignored.  It doesn't matter what we are really discussing, if it can be misconstrued as discussing getting away with excessive force, then it will be misconstrued...


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## Don Roley (Jul 31, 2005)

I showed this thread to someone who used to work in the District Attorny office prosecuting cases. There seems to be no problems with what has been said so far. As long as we are talking about how to prepare ourselves for an attack from another person and not preparing to sucker punch them there should be no more problem than in taking a martial arts class.

In fact, the thread about knife fighting caused more concern. As it was explained to me, if you are trying to de-escalate a situation in a bar like we are talking about, then as long as no one gets crippled or dead we are not dealing with a lot of searching into our pasts. The DA will most likely go with what the officer on the scene says and he will be infulenced by what the witnesses says. Their typical MO is to look at things as "drunken moron A" and "Drunken moron B" rather than "attacker" and "victim." So if you are trying to get out of a fight, you better make everyone around you aware that you are doing that. Four letter words do not belong in the de-escalation process.

So, if you can use hoko to get the guy to calm down and let you get away, great. If he starts a physical attack, you might be better able to defend yourself and yet still not be taken away by the police at the end of the night. And as long as you keep your nose fairly clean that should be the end of it.

Of course, with a knife everything gets jumped up a heck of a lot. My source was concerned with the idea of people talking about picking a knife to carry _as a weapon._ Pull out that knife and you enter a field of lethal force. People may get seriously hurt or killed. Backgraounds will be checked and the fact that you were considering carrying a knife to use as a weapon instead of as just a handy tool and it could be used against you.

Legal matters are really complicated.


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## The Tengu (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm glad I joined this forum, as I have been experimenting with hoko no kamae a lot recently for many of the same reasons brought up in this thread.

Earlier this year I had the opportunity to work with some of SouthNarc's ECQC system during a seminar he held, and at the same time got to experience some of what the IPDTA endorses during a seminar Martin Cooper taught (which utilizes a slightly lowered hoko no kamae as its "default" position). Experiencing these two systems got the gears working in my brain...

Anyhow, back to the thread. Mr. Keith mentioned that feigning weakness is a "clever strategy of gimpishness". To me, it is not so much a trick as it is a subtle way to physically establish your personal space with a functional stance.

The hoko no kamae gimp stance is a part of the transition between verbal negotiations to physical defense that has a protective application while appearing non-confrontational. I believe that it _should_ appear non-confrontational, because you _don't_ want to fight!

Psychologically, you are being passive and your hands are not in a threatening position such as near your waistline; _you_ are the victim. Mechanically, the gimp stance gives us a symmetrical defense against lateral attacks to the head as well as provides the attacker with a linear opening. I'd consider this a good thing, as Bujinkan taijutsu schools seem to practice a whole lot of linear defenses.

This all sounds a lot like kyojitsu tenkan ho concepts to me.

Of course, this transition between verbal negotiations to physical defense is predicated upon the defender's level of environmental awareness. If the defender is caught unaware, a good bit of their defense has already been compromised.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 1, 2005)

Greg, 

 On behalf of the staff here at martial talk, Welcome aboard!

 I hope you enjoy your time here.


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## Gina (Aug 1, 2005)

In response to Don Roley's point about the Hoko No Kamae being used as a defensive surrendering posture with the hands out in front as if to say to an attacker 'I Dont want any trouble' is actually one of the first things taught in To-Shin Do. It was also one of the first things taught to me when I was training as a police officer together with some verbal commands like 'Stay Back'. Using a very visual defensive posture is so important in the UK because CCTV is everywhere, and CCTV is often used in court. It really is a big No No to use a classical Ninjutsu posture in public today except in the most extreme of circumstances. Having a verbal dialogue that says something like 'Stay Back' is also really helpful, just make sure you say it loudly for three reasons.

1/ Audible suppresion. In a fight situation the first sense to go is the hearing. You may be telling an attacker you don't want to fight, but he may not hear you.
2/ It gives your witnesses in the court that will say 'I heard him (you) say 'Stay back, I don't want to fight'.
3/ It gives out a warning and people may come to your aid.

In To-Shin Do too, and I know that someone is going to critisice me for promoting the Stephen K Hayes Martial Arts, but even our Ichimonji, called Bobi No kamae has the palms out in a defensive posture, as opposed to the classic posture. I guess thats what I like about To-Shin Do after being a police officer, I realise that these classical postures just make it look like you are the trouble maker, or even worse, the Judge realises your a martial artists and as such could have easily controlled your attacker without hurting him, or if he has a bad opinion of martial arts, that you are the trouble maker.

Reading these posts its interesting that some of you are developing a strategy that we are using in what we do. 

                                Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk


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## rutherford (Aug 1, 2005)

Gary, 


			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> What if I told you that kamae is a principle thing more than a technique thing?


Here, try this article.  http://www.bujinkan-france.net/bjk/article.php3?id_article=133


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## Don Roley (Aug 1, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> I guess thats what I like about To-Shin Do after being a police officer, I realise that these classical postures just make it look like you are the trouble maker,



You are obviously being trained differently from how things are done here in Japan. You obviously seem to have gotten the wrong impression for the purpose of kamae and their uses. My teacher makes a lot of fun of the idea of dropping into a stance before a fight. He and I have a little routine we do with visitors to push the point. Instead, the kamae are what happens _in the fight._ When blows are coming down, you shift from stance to stance keeping your guard and balance up.

Hoko no kamae is also a stance that is used as a weight transition when blows are being thrown. But in this case, it can also be used as a means of letting everyone around you know that you do not want to fight. Just taking it may get the other guy to suspend his attack and turn to just screaming at you. I will take being screamed at over coming to blows if I have a choice.


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## rutherford (Aug 1, 2005)

Don, would go for a different feeling when using Hoko in this manner?  The words you mention, especially "back off" don't seem to emphasize what I associate with this kamae.


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## Don Roley (Aug 1, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Don, would go for a different feeling when using Hoko in this manner?  The words you mention, especially "back off" don't seem to emphasize what I associate with this kamae.



I don't think any _feeling_ is neccesarily found in any kamae. That seems to be a leftover from the early stuff by SKH. In Japan, you use the tools you have and don't try to make a stance fit any type of feeling.

Of course, we are still trying to overcome all the mistaken impressions and such that we have left over from SKH's early attempts to introduce the art to the west with his limited knowledge. Suffice to say that I have never been told that you have to have a certain feeling for hoko or any other kamae in the classes I have been to in Japan.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 1, 2005)

_a_


			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> You are obviously being trained differently from how things are done here in Japan. You obviously seem to have gotten the wrong impression for the purpose of kamae and their uses. My teacher makes a lot of fun of the idea of dropping into a stance before a fight. He and I have a little routine we do with visitors to push the point. Instead, the kamae are what happens _in the fight._


Actually, at the 2000 Taikai in Holland Hatsumi stated that the kamae goes _after_ the fight. :ultracool


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## rutherford (Aug 1, 2005)

Hai.  Thanks, Don.  Too much reading on the internet and not enough training.  *sigh*


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## Gina (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh dear here we go again, any chance at a SKH dig. But wait a minute is'nt this a copy of the Ten Chi Jin Scroll by one of the Shi Ten O I have with pictures of kamae at the beginning. Yes Don you and I know that kamae are a lot more subtle when one has trained long enough. But I thought that this post was about how people used Hoko No kamae, and people were saying that one can take up a type of Hoko No kamae before a fight is about to begin, so as to show that we do not wish to fight. It would after all be a bit silly not to do anthing. Maybe stand in Shizen No kamae, or conversly move around adopting these forever changing postures. But wait doesn't this look like we want to fight. I want to show that I don't want to fight due to legal reasons. Hence why I adopt something resembling Hoko No Kame.

Yes I aprreciate from your elevated position that you know that Hoko No kamae is so much more, but if you think that warriors in the past did not adopt Hoko No kamae prior to a fight then you would be wrong.

Kamae can be adopted prior to a fight, during a fight and after a fight, in  body i.e physical manifestation and in the mind and spirit as well. 

In fact in Hatsumi Sensei book way of the ninja he talks about three kamae. kamae of the body, Kamae of battle formations, and kamae of defensive fortifications. Or maybe we believe that actually there are no kamae of battle formations, i.e that troops did not take up positions (Kamae) on the battle field, just like you suppose they don't do in taijutsu.

                               Gary Arthur


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## Kreth (Aug 2, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> Oh dear here we go again, any chance at a SKH dig.


It may be this line from your previous post, which implies that the rest of the Bujinkan is just getting around to learning what TSD has been doing all along:


> Reading these posts its interesting that some of you are developing a strategy that we are using in what we do.


This seems to be a common theme in your posts, that TSD is somehow the vanguard of Bujinkan training. Some of us disagree.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 2, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> In fact in Hatsumi Sensei book way of the ninja he talks about three kamae. kamae of the body, Kamae of battle formations, and kamae of defensive fortifications. Or maybe we believe that actually there are no kamae of battle formations, i.e that troops did not take up positions (Kamae) on the battle field, just like you suppose they don't do in taijutsu.


It has been said that on the battlefield there are only three kamae - low, middle and high.


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## Don Roley (Aug 2, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> Yes I aprreciate from your elevated position that you know that Hoko No kamae is so much more, but if you think that warriors in the past did not adopt Hoko No kamae prior to a fight then you would be wrong.



Go back and read over the posts please. I took issue with the fact that you had troubles with the idea that kamae could look like you were trying to cause trouble. I pointed out that the kamae are supposed to be used inside a fight and not dropped into prior to it as a general rule. Hoko no kamae can be used prior to a fight like we are discussing, but can you imagine hopping up to someone in hicho? But if you kick, until your foot gets back on the ground you are effectively in hicho.

In short, I took issue with the limited view you have on kamae and was not trying to limit myself to using hoko or any other kamae _exclusivly_ prior to or during blows being thrown.


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## Gina (Aug 3, 2005)

Don

If it came over that I have a limited view on kamae this is only because you read into it what you will. You and I both know that Kamae are integral to the taijutsu and not just a method of taking up some posture prior to the conflict. However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts. Later the student will learn that actually the kamae are more subtle, but try explaining how kamae really work to a beginner and you confuse them.
Interestingly there is not a lot made of the kamae in the To-Shin Do curriculum, and the kamae like Jumonji, Kosei etc are hardly, if ever mentioned in the DVD series. Maybe its because we want to teach kamae in To-Shin Do at a more elevated level. But we do realise that beginners will need some kind of posture to start from, hence we have this open handed ichimonji which we call bobi no kamae and a type of Hoko no kamae with the hands open at chest level.


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## saru1968 (Aug 3, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> ........................Maybe its because we want to teach kamae in To-Shin Do at a more elevated level.


 
and in the Bujinkan we don't ?


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## Don Roley (Aug 3, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts.



Or perhaps it would be best to try to teach begginers the correct way of looking at the matter and try to keep things as they are taught in Japan.

I would not try changing something like kamae unless I was sure that I knew them and the principles behind them so well that I was sure that I carried the same principles over to the new forms. I do not think that anyone like Hayes, yourself or me has that level of knowledge yet. There is just too much that may seem to be unimportant that can be thrown out in the wash.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 3, 2005)

Gina said:
			
		

> Don
> However when teaching beginners, and I guess most dojo show some kamae to begin with, we get them to learn how to defend from these postures. What I am saying is that maybe the postures ought to look like 'I Dont Want To Fight' right from the start as opposed to a classical posture that does look aggresive and could get one in trouble in the courts. Later the student will learn that actually the kamae are more subtle, but try explaining how kamae really work to a beginner and you confuse them.


Yeah, we wouldn't want people to get confused in the beginning, would we...?



			
				Gina said:
			
		

> But we do realise that beginners will need some kind of posture to start from, hence we have this open handed ichimonji which we call bobi no kamae and a type of Hoko no kamae with the hands open at chest level.


Uhm, bobi no kamae is done with clenched fists.

Would you mind letting us in on what you understand of the concept tate ni suru?


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## Shogun (Aug 4, 2005)

> In fact in Hatsumi Sensei book way of the ninja he talks about three kamae


 I have moved on from refering to any of Hatsumi's books or DVDs. Every time someone brings up something from one of them, unless they are a high ranked Bujinkan member, they misinterpret it. 


> Uhm, bobi no kamae is done with clenched fists.
> 
> Would you mind letting us in on what you understand of the concept tate ni suru?


Or showing. My motto is "Too many name, not enough Game". I'd rather see it.


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## Mickey Mullins (Aug 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted by *Gina*
> 
> _I guess thats what I like about To-Shin Do after being a police officer, I realise that these classical postures just make it look like you are the trouble maker,_


I guess if one looks at kamae as POSTURE this would be so.I try to train with no posture while retaining my kamae:idunno: .



> Originally Posted by *Gina*
> _But we do realise that beginners will need some kind of posture to start from, hence we have this open handed ichimonji which we call bobi no kamae and a type of Hoko no kamae with the hands open at chest level_


Bobi isn't Ichimonji nor Ichimonji, Bobi.Two different Ryu-ha there friend.If SKH is so original why bastardize the names?Anywhaaa.......

Nimravus wrote:





> Uhm, bobi no kamae is done with clenched fists.


This is rather insignificant,as I cant clench my fists if I'm holding 2-3 kodachi or pulling tetsuban from my obi.Now the eyes:uhyeah: ,thats a different story. 

Don Roley wrote:





> I don't think any _feeling_ is neccesarily found in any kamae. That seems to be a leftover from the early stuff by SKH. In Japan, you use the tools you have and don't try to make a stance fit any type of feeling.


You mean I'm not supposed to feel like an angry bear while I'm in Hokonokamae!???! 

Mickey Mullins


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 5, 2005)

Mickey Mullins said:
			
		

> Nimravus wrote:This is rather insignificant,as I cant clench my fists if I'm holding 2-3 kodachi or pulling tetsuban from my obi.Now the eyes:uhyeah: ,thats a different story.


Schhhhhh! Don't mention traditional Japanese weapons, we're discussing teh str337 here if you don't mind!!:lol2:


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## saru1968 (Aug 5, 2005)

Lol !


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## Don Roley (Sep 4, 2005)

This article by a couple of friends of mine should be required reading for people in this thread.

It is just damn good common sense. But I am sure that many  people responding here will look at it and feel that they knew what was being said, but just could not put it into words as well.

So I think that using hoko to back off in case the other guy tries to take a parting shot is a good one. Not standing there arguing with the guy while in hoko- that would be fighting if it came to blows. And certainly not trying to sucker punch the other guy.

But if you are in the body posture while moving away, I think people will be better able to tell the police that you were not a part of the problem. That of course goes all out the window if you talk about the guy's mother or sexual preferences while doing so.

One saying from the police goes like this, you can't make a bad shoot good, but you can certainly make a good one bad. In defending yourself, you need to not only get home in one piece, but with as little legal trouble as possible.


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