# Pinan to Pyung Ahn



## Makalakumu

It is well known that Hwang Kee took the pinan kata series and adapted them into the pyung ahn hyung series.  I want to start a thread on the differences between these kata/hyung.  

Lets start with the name...

Pyung = peaceful
Ahn = confidence

How different is this from the meaning of Pinan?


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## The Kai

Pinan I've always heard means peacefull mind


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## Andrew Green

I think it's same meaning, different pronounciation.

even "tang soo" = "Tote" = "Tang Hand", tang refering to the Tang dynasty, or more generally China.


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## Makalakumu

In Pyung Ahn Sam Dan (Pinan Sandan), coming down the middle the second time, one leads with what looks like an outside inside crescent kick, elbow, backfist combination.  I have heard that the kick was changed by Hwang Kee to the crescent kick and I am wondering what it was originally?


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## The Kai

I've seen it as either the crescent or the front kick


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## searcher

The Kai said:
			
		

> I've seen it as either the crescent or the front kick


 
Ours uses the front kick.   We have mostly front kicks in our pinans where as the pyung ahn's use quite a few side kicks.


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## oldnewbie

I was taught that the kick originally was a "stomp" kick, but was changed to a crescent..


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## arnisador

My understanding is also that the crescent kick is a later addition...


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## Gene Williams

Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.


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## Makalakumu

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.


 
Could you explain some specific differences that you have noticed?  I am curious as to how much the TSD versions differ from the Okinawan _versions_.


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## The Kai

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.


 
Maybe also what the difference is in the japenese version vs the okinawan version.  Every culture has taken the form from a differnt culture and adapted it.  kung fu became Te, Te became Shotokan and so forth.  Why were these adaptions made.
Maybe there is a reaon that the Korean forms look "stiff", does it reflect a principle the founder wanted emphasused?


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> Maybe also what the difference is in the japenese version vs the okinawan version. Every culture has taken the form from a differnt culture and adapted it. kung fu became Te, Te became Shotokan and so forth. Why were these adaptions made.
> Maybe there is a reaon that the Korean forms look "stiff", does it reflect a principle the founder wanted emphasused?


 
Good points.  The thing about TSD is that our forms emphasize fluidity, use of hip, and explosive power.  One of the principles that the pyung ahns teach us is the importance of tension and relaxation.


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## oldnewbie

One difference I've seen are the height or depth of the stances. Does TSD's versions use low stances like Shotokan, or are they higher? And why the difference?


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## Makalakumu

oldnewbie said:
			
		

> One difference I've seen are the height or depth of the stances. Does TSD's versions use low stances like Shotokan, or are they higher? And why the difference?


 
It depends on the technique.  If I am doing a move whose application is a scoop throw, I'll get really low.


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## oldnewbie

I guess I was referring to the katas themselves. In Shotokan all stances are low, but when I dabbled in Hapkido, my instructor would try to raise me up?


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## Makalakumu

oldnewbie said:
			
		

> I guess I was referring to the katas themselves. In Shotokan all stances are low, but when I dabbled in Hapkido, my instructor would try to raise me up?


 
Overall, I think our stances are lower then what is typically practiced.  I think the GM thought this would make them more challenging and more aesthetically pleasing.  Its really hard to make generalizations though.  There are so many exceptions.


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## Grenadier

I've seen Pinan Sandan and it's corresponding Pyung Ahn form, performed in different ways.  

One style of Karate as well as a Tang Soo Do school used a crescent kick.

Another Karate style used a front kick. 

Another Karate style did not utilize a kick, and instead, went directly into the elbow block.


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## Makalakumu

Do you remember the styles of the forms you viewed?


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## arnisador

The Kai said:
			
		

> Maybe also what the difference is in the japenese version vs the okinawan version. Every culture has taken the form from a differnt culture and adapted it.


 
Yup. The Okinawan versions themselves are largely adapted versions of the Chinese forms--some so changed it can be hard to see the connection, others still very similar.


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## searcher

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Overall, I think our stances are lower then what is typically practiced.  I think the GM thought this would make them more challenging and more aesthetically pleasing.  Its really hard to make generalizations though.  There are so many exceptions.


Good point about the stances.   My system coming orginally from the Okinawan traditions uses stances that are very high.    It is almost like a walking stance.   It is for increased movement.


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## oldnewbie

searcher said:
			
		

> Good point about the stances. My system coming orginally from the Okinawan traditions uses stances that are very high. It is almost like a walking stance. It is for increased movement.



I was taught low stances in katas, but high stances when sparring.. that was difficult to grasp. Then I would see similar kata with high stances, and would scratch my head?


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## DavidCC

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.


 
Good to have you back Gene, I, for one, missed your unique take on things


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## Gene Williams

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Good to have you back Gene, I, for one, missed your unique take on things


 
My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn. Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.
As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count. There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period. There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan. As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly. Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used. These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately. Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu). I'm not sure what the Korean folks are doing, but it is a very poor imitation. I have been to the websites of several "35th degree TSD and TKD Great Grand Super Duper Heavy Hung Red and Gold Belt On The Boat First Degree Off The Boat Ninth Degree Universal Cosmic WhupAss Masters" and watched them do the kata and they still look stiff and funny...sort of like they don't know what the Hell they are doing. Anyway, that is my take on it.


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## The Kai

They might look odd to you because, you don't know what they are doing.  It is always easy to judge from your own perspective


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## DavidCC

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> My take is not "unique."


 
Sorry, you are correct, I think it is more of your presentation that is special  

The style I study uses the pinan series and so I am always interested in their history and evolution.  Do you know where I can see video of the different okinawan styles' versions?  I saw a TSD version of the first pinan, it was IDENTICAL to what we do (as far as the stepping and punching anyway).


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## Gene Williams

Dave, Go to www.shitokai.com. They have decent videos of the Shito ryu Pinan kata. Not exactly as we do them in Motobu ha, but close enough. Scroll down to cyber academy and kata videos. Gene  PS They are doing them slowly so students can follow, but you can see the moves, the stances, and the blocks, etc. very well. They are normally done with a little more speed and rhythm than this.


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## Gene Williams

The Kai said:
			
		

> They might look odd to you because, you don't know what they are doing. It is always easy to judge from your own perspective


 
I know they are not doing Pinan kata. I don't care what else they are doing.


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## Makalakumu

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn.


 
Thanks for the history.  Are you sure that "channan" is lost though?  I worked out with a Chinese Kempo stylist who claimed that he practiced that form.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.


 
I've trained in both TSD and Shotokan and from my experience, I immediately knew that both forms were similar. In fact, many parts were indistinguishable.  The biggest difference was in how TSD generated power. There is more emphasis on hip rotation and body snap.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count.


 
Do beginning students in okinawan karate count when practicing kata?Â  Could you elaborate on this?  Fluidity in TSD is defined as Sun Suc Mi or Speed/Line/Beauty and even this is rather subjective.  Yet, what we are looking for is proper speed of techniques, correct alignment, and beautiful flow.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period.


 
The only hyung we practice that has high kicks is pyung ahn sam dan (pinan sandan) and those are the outside inside crescent kicks.  This kick can easily be thrown lower and the application resulting is pretty sweet.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan.


 
Why are there no side kicks in okinawan pinan's?  I like the joint locking low side kick applications that come out of the kata that we practice.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly..


 
I would have to agree with you here.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used.


 
Could you elaborate on some details?Â  Perhaps describe it in a general way so that I could understand and maybe compare?



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately.


 
Right. And that is why I value your opinion.  I wish I could just show you how I practice them and get your take...



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu)..


 
Earlier we discussed the difference in the names Pinan to Pyung Ahn, and what each meant.  Could you give us a good working definition for Pinan?



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what the Korean folks are doing, but it is a very poor imitation. I have been to the websites of several "35th degree TSD and TKD Great Grand Super Duper Heavy Hung Red and Gold Belt On The Boat First Degree Off The Boat Ninth Degree Universal Cosmic WhupAss Masters" and watched them do the kata and they still look stiff and funny...sort of like they don't know what the Hell they are doing. Anyway, that is my take on it.


 
Hopefully, via this thread, we can all understand better where we are coming from.


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## Michael Billings

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful of others.  Racial slurs and negative generalizations about other styles will not be tolerated.  This will be the only warning regarding this.

-Michael Billings
-MT Asst. Administrator-


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## Gene Williams

Why does a mod feel the need to jump in here? I have seen no racial slurs. You cannot discuss a broad range of martial arts without generalizations...as long as you realize there are exceptions. Calm down.


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## Gene Williams

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Thanks for the history. Are you sure that "channan" is lost though? I worked out with a Chinese Kempo stylist who claimed that he practiced that form.
> 
> 
> 
> I've trained in both TSD and Shotokan and from my experience, I immediately knew that both forms were similar. In fact, many parts were indistinguishable. The biggest difference was in how TSD generated power. There is more emphasis on hip rotation and body snap.
> 
> 
> 
> Do beginning students in okinawan karate count when practicing kata?Â Could you elaborate on this? Fluidity in TSD is defined as Sun Suc Mi or Speed/Line/Beauty and even this is rather subjective. Yet, what we are looking for is proper speed of techniques, correct alignment, and beautiful flow.
> 
> 
> 
> The only hyung we practice that has high kicks is pyung ahn sam dan (pinan sandan) and those are the outside inside crescent kicks. This kick can easily be thrown lower and the application resulting is pretty sweet.
> 
> 
> 
> Why are there no side kicks in okinawan pinan's? I like the joint locking low side kick applications that come out of the kata that we practice.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have to agree with you here.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you elaborate on some details?Â Perhaps describe it in a general way so that I could understand and maybe compare?
> 
> 
> 
> Right. And that is why I value your opinion. I wish I could just show you how I practice them and get your take...
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier we discussed the difference in the names Pinan to Pyung Ahn, and what each meant. Could you give us a good working definition for Pinan?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, via this thread, we can all understand better where we are coming from.


 
John, Yes, channan is lost. Every few years some wannabee comes up with the idea that he has found the "lost kata channan" and sets forth on some mish mash about it. Sort of like the Holy Grail. There is no magic lost kata that will suddenly give you secret techniques or magic powers. That comes from hard work and years in the arts...period. The channan discussion has been done on other forums, too. It is an empty chase.
Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind." 
No, Okinawan karate beginners do not "count." At least, they are not taught to count. The sensei may count out loud as the group is doing kata, but you should not count moves. We do not put so much emphasis on the number of moves in a kata. It tends to fragment the kata and cause your mind to "stop." It is better to just learn the moves in phases or sequences. This better allows the student to let the moves flow together later on.


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## Makalakumu

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> John, Yes, channan is lost. Every few years some wannabee comes up with the idea that he has found the "lost kata channan" and sets forth on some mish mash about it. Sort of like the Holy Grail. There is no magic lost kata that will suddenly give you secret techniques or magic powers. That comes from hard work and years in the arts...period. The channan discussion has been done on other forums, too. It is an empty chase.
> Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind."
> No, Okinawan karate beginners do not "count." At least, they are not taught to count. The sensei may count out loud as the group is doing kata, but you should not count moves. We do not put so much emphasis on the number of moves in a kata. It tends to fragment the kata and cause your mind to "stop." It is better to just learn the moves in phases or sequences. This better allows the student to let the moves flow together later on.


 
Thank you for your reply.  Here are a couple of thoughts and a couple more questions...

1.  Pyung Ahn, in our art, describes a mindset that one learns from the practice of these forms.  Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence.  When we practice these forms we attempt to balance the two concepts, the thought being that if one is too peaceful, one becomes effete and passive and if one becomes to confident, one becomes to aggressive and over-confident.

How does this differ from the Okinawan concept of Pinan?

2.  In Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (pinan yondan), there is a segment where the tori draws uki toward him with a joint lock right after elbowing him in the face.  Then we slam a low side kick into uki's closest knee.  There are lots of variations to this application and it seems very effective to me.  

I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms?  What are they replaced with?

3.  How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?


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## Gene Williams

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Thank you for your reply. Here are a couple of thoughts and a couple more questions...
> 
> 1. Pyung Ahn, in our art, describes a mindset that one learns from the practice of these forms. Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence. When we practice these forms we attempt to balance the two concepts, the thought being that if one is too peaceful, one becomes effete and passive and if one becomes to confident, one becomes to aggressive and over-confident.
> 
> How does this differ from the Okinawan concept of Pinan?
> 
> 2. In Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (pinan yondan), there is a segment where the tori draws uki toward him with a joint lock right after elbowing him in the face. Then we slam a low side kick into uki's closest knee. There are lots of variations to this application and it seems very effective to me.
> 
> I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms? What are they replaced with?
> 
> 3. How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?


 

1.) Peaceful Mind is often explained to mean that these five kata provide you with all the karate you need to defend yourself. I have also heard it explained as meaning you should perform them with a peaceful mind, or that the performance of them will create a peaceful mind. I'm not sure anyone knows what Itosu's original intent for the name was (but just as sure as I say that, 10 soke's will jump in and say they have the true original meaning).

2. The kicks in the Okinawan versions are front kicks (snap and thrust), and strikes with the knees. There are some stamping kicks in the bunkai. I think Shotokan does middle level side kicks in Pinan Yondan, but Okinawan karate does not. We consider side kick as being used primarily to the knees. There are a few practitioners who will kick floating rib high with it, but I don't believe that is its purpose. I fuss at my students for kicking to the body with it. 

3. The breathing in Pinan is natural and from the hara. Exhale on execution and inhale during transition or on loading the technique. Pinan breathing is "light" compared to some of the other kata. At senior levels, block and punch may come in one exhalation, and two consecutive punches may come in one breath. In Shito ryu, there are a couple of places where there is a slight forced exhalation, but nothing like in Goju ryu.

I have often told my students that the 5 Pinan kata, done well and with a clear understanding of applications, is shodan level karate. Of course, there are other required kata for shodan, but the Pinan have a lot to teach and you never quit doing them. I do the Pinan every time I train, and I've been doing them for 35 years.


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## Kosokun

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind."


I like the tranlation, "Tranquility" for Pinan/heian. 

Rob

Nice to see you here, Gene!

Rob


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## Kosokun

Gene's take on the history of the Pinan as well as his comments on the kicks in the Pinan kata are right on.

Pinans aren't Chinese, they're Okinawan, created by Itosu.  According to Kenzo Mabuni, they were developed from Kosokun/Kushanku.  Channan is indeed lost to the sands of time.

Rob



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn. Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.
> As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count. There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period. There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan. As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly. Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used. These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately. Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu).


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## Kosokun

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms?  What are they replaced with?



They weren't replaced with anything.  The kicks weren't there in the first place.  The side kicks, like the 7th movement in Pinan Shodan or the 6th movement of Pinan Yondan are more like front kicks done to the side.


> 3.  How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?



Natural.  Exhale when exerting.

Rob


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## Kosokun

This is a common cliche, yet other than sanchin, I've yet to see in my 35 years in the MA any Chinese form that corresponds to any in the traditional Okinawan/Japanese karate syllabus.

The Pinans, however, were created by Itosu Ankoh around 1905.  They're not Chinese forms or adaptations of Chinese forms.

Rob



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> Yup. The Okinawan versions themselves are largely adapted versions of the Chinese forms--some so changed it can be hard to see the connection, others still very similar.


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## Kosokun

Shitokai.com is an excellent site.  
Another site that has the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu versions of the Pinan and other kata is here.  http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html

Rob




			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Dave, Go to www.shitokai.com. They have decent videos of the Shito ryu Pinan kata. Not exactly as we do them in Motobu ha, but close enough. Scroll down to cyber academy and kata videos. Gene PS They are doing them slowly so students can follow, but you can see the moves, the stances, and the blocks, etc. very well. They are normally done with a little more speed and rhythm than this.


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## Makalakumu

Kosokun said:
			
		

> They weren't replaced with anything. The kicks weren't there in the first place. The side kicks, like the 7th movement in Pinan Shodan or the 6th movement of Pinan Yondan are more like front kicks done to the side.


 
I saw that in the video that Gene posted.  Why is it done this way?  Wouldn't a low side kick perform a similar function in bunkai?


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## Kosokun

My guess, since I didn't know Itosu personally, (Gene might, as he's that old.  :-D ) is the intended target is different.  With a kick int he manner that I described, the target is quite flexible.  That is, one can kick inside the knee, the knee itself, the groin, the inside of the leg, whichever presents itself.  A low side kick is largely limited to the inside or outside aspects of the knee.

Rob



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I saw that in the video that Gene posted. Why is it done this way? Wouldn't a low side kick perform a similar function in bunkai?


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## Makalakumu

Kosokun said:
			
		

> My guess, since I didn't know Itosu personally, (Gene might, as he's that old. :-D ) is the intended target is different. With a kick int he manner that I described, the target is quite flexible. That is, one can kick inside the knee, the knee itself, the groin, the inside of the leg, whichever presents itself. A low side kick is largely limited to the inside or outside aspects of the knee.
> 
> Rob


 
That makes alot of sense.  I'll have to play around with that.  One other thing I like about the side kick in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan, however, is the sickle action of the foot.  One can hook and pull on the retraction.


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## Gene Williams

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> That makes alot of sense. I'll have to play around with that. One other thing I like about the side kick in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan, however, is the sickle action of the foot. One can hook and pull on the retraction.


 
What are you "hooking and pulling?" That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." It is either a front kick or it isn't. The student doesn't get to choose which technique goes in the kata. You may also be making the popular error of trying to find too much in the kata or in a technique. In the Okinawan version of that kata, there is no "sickle action of the foot," and you aren't hooking or pulling anything. It is a front kick to the abdomen, usually a front thrust kick, but a snap kick is often done. Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted. I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.


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## Jonathan Randall

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> What are you "hooking and pulling?" That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." .


 
Perhaps because he's speaking of the Tang Soo Do form, not Okinawan karate?



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted. I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.


 
Apparently you do, and I think I prefer his. Different strokes for different folks. However, I recognize the fact that some have difficulty working in an environment unless everything that isn't compulsory is forbidden.


----------



## Gene Williams

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Perhaps because he's speaking of the Tang Soo Do form, not Okinawan karate?
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently you do, and I think I prefer his. Different strokes for different folks. However, I recognize the fact that some have difficulty working in an environment unless everything that isn't compulsory is forbidden.


 
You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said so that you can try and use a clever quote. He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form. If you like that world, have fun. There are those who cannot work in any structured environment that includes requirements, tradition, authority, and the concept of "ryu" and "dojo." These folks attack such things as "rigid" and "compulsory" without a clue as to what that environment is all about. I think it is probably an authority problem that goes back to mommy and daddy or something like that. Anyway, back to the "studio" with you.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> You are deliberately misinterpreting what I said so that you can try and use a clever quote. He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form.


 
A Korean take away of that form, not bastardization. The term "bastardization" is derogatory and does not apply here. All arts are derivative, including yours, or Karate would not have been known as "China Hand" until last century. I misunderstood neither your post nor your attitude.  What do you get out of running other arts down, anyway? Are you not confident enough in your own accomplishments?



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> If you like that world, have fun. There are those who cannot work in any structured environment that includes requirements, tradition, authority, and the concept of "ryu" and "dojo."


 
I was speaking of prefering his world where martial artists did not go out of their way to run down other artists and arts and where there was some place for discovery and no place for megalomania. Upnorthkyosa is beyond first dan in his art and certainly has a right to consider different possible purposes for techniques in his forms.


----------



## Bester

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> He is speaking of a TSD bastardization of an Okinawan form.


 
So, what's you opinion of the Arnis folks? Seems their forms are yet another "bastardization" of "Kara-te". 

Mr. Williams, you're in a Tang Soo Do forum. Regardless of how you see things, here the "correct" way is Korean, not Japanese. Regardless of where things may have "developed", this isn't "Kara-te".

Might I suggest you take a less belligerent attitude as well? You points might be taken more seriously.


----------



## Kosokun

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I was speaking of prefering his world where martial artists did not go out of their way to run down other artists and arts and where there was some place for discovery and no place for megalomania.



Sadly, I've never encountered such a place in either Korean, Chinese, Filipino, Brazilian or Japanese MA. 

Rob


----------



## arnisador

Bester said:
			
		

> So, what's you opinion of the Arnis folks? Seems their forms are yet another "bastardization" of "Kara-te".



Yeah, but they were taken pretty literally from Karate--the individual movements are very Shotokan, though many people interpret them more broadly.

But it's a good point that forms change when they reach new cultures. On the other hand, the gradual change of the Chinese forms in Okinawa is different from the forced change in Korea.

Someone mentioned that Sanchin is the best known of the Chinese forms that made it to Okinawan..Seisan, Sanseiryu, and many others are of Chinese origin too, though.


----------



## Makalakumu

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> What are you "hooking and pulling?"


 
Soto Gama.  If my uki attempts to twist out of my joint lock, I'll hook their post leg and take their balance and suddenly they'll be thinking about something else...



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> That's funny...another aspect of Okinawan karate ryu is that you don't "play around with that." It is either a front kick or it isn't. The student doesn't get to choose which technique goes in the kata.


 
Sir, who chooses which techniques go into the kata?  I have certainly seen lots of interpretations.

One of the reasons that my teacher withdrew from the Soo Bahk Do federation is because he felt that they were becoming to static.  Innovation was limited only to the illuminated few...



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> You may also be making the popular error of trying to find too much in the kata or in a technique. In the Okinawan version of that kata, there is no "sickle action of the foot," and you aren't hooking or pulling anything. It is a front kick to the abdomen, usually a front thrust kick, but a snap kick is often done.


 
I appreciate your comments and I will take them into consideration when practicing some of these techniques.  I value your experience.



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Kata are not considered as "raw material" for a student to play with and see what he can come up with. The student's ideas are being shaped, not consulted.


 
In a very semiotic way, kata have become symbols in which the bunkai depend on the symbol user and the context of interpretation.  Epistomologically, if students are being shaped toward one truth, then that one line is determined by the symbol user and the context.  However, there may be many others...



			
				Gene Williams said:
			
		

> I guess we just live in different martial arts worlds.


 
I'm okay with that.  Thank you for your comments thus far.

:asian: 

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Gene Williams

Innovating with bunkai is one thing and certainly no problem. Of course, many people are "reaching" a bit when they come up with some things. The bunkai should at least be true to the moves and spirit of the kata. When it comes to changing tha actual moves in the kata, that can get to be a problem. Even though Shito ryu and Goju ryu do the kata Seipai , for instance, slightly differently it is easily recognized as the same kata. Goju may shift to a 45 degree angle at one point wheras Shito ryu shifts 90 degrees, Goju may bring the arm and open hand at the beginning from over top and Shito may bring it around from the chest, etc. We all know the differences. Now, if someone decides to put in a high side kick there, or add a kick or two it changes the whole kata. You can't relativize everything. Semiotically, a stop sign is a stop sign if we are to have any meaningful social structure at all. I have called the kata the canons of karate. It is sort of like the Apostle's Creed...many great and different sermons or homilies can be preached about it, we admire the memorable efforts at presenting it, but don't go changing the words.
The practice of kata is supposed to allow certain things to happen to the individual over time. Many of those things are based upon the long term repetition and study of the kata as it was taught. Eventually, the kata becomes second nature, so to speak, and because of the mental and physical relaxation, the zanshin, shibumi, etc. that develop, the karateka gains greater physical ability and spiritual understanding. If we are always "messing with" the kata, those things can't happen. Maybe it is sort of like the difference between representational art and abstract art, I like representational art (could you have guessed ). A person is a person and a tree is a tree, not some smear on a canvas that is left up to the ideas of the viewer.


----------



## Grenadier

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Do you remember the styles of the forms you viewed?


 
Yes. 

A Shotokan school used the crescent kick, combined with the elbow block / backfist.  

One particular Wado school also used the above.  

A different Wado school dropped the kick entirely, and went straight into the elbow block / backfist.  

One TSD school used the front kick in lieu of the crescent kick.  

Who's right?  Who's wrong?  I honestly don't know, since each style, and possible school within a style, can have different interpretations on how a kata is performed, or what the purpose is.


----------



## The Kai

Please change your avatar,


----------



## mtabone

Gene Williams,

  I have read your post and you can not say generalizations like, BASTERDIZED karate. And the like when talking about Tang Soo Do. 

   Many Tang Soo Do organizations do it differently from the next. 

   You have obviously not seen someone from the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan do these forms. We breath every movement. And while some moves are different from Okinawan style of kata, they are damn near close. 

   And, it does not make one right, and another wrong, just different. 

   BTW, on a related topic, do you know for sure if the forms that are hundreds of years old in origin where done the same way they are done today? 

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya

mtabone said:
			
		

> You have obviously not seen someone from the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan do these forms. We breath every movement. And while some moves are different from Okinawan style of kata, they are damn near close.
> 
> Tang Soo!
> Michael Tabone


 
 Which tang soo do hyung resembles Okinawan Kata ?  By the way in case you used a Shotokan kata as a referenced point , please note that Shotokan is a Japanese system not Okinawan.  Thanks


----------



## Makalakumu

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> Which tang soo do hyung resembles Okinawan Kata ? By the way in case you used a Shotokan kata as a referenced point , please note that Shotokan is a Japanese system not Okinawan. Thanks


 
The subject of this thread is about the pinan and pyung ahn hyungs.  In shotokan, these forms are called Heien.  These forms developed in okinawa, moved to japan and then moved to korea.  I think it is interesting to note the geographic line this knowledge spread.  I wonder if other concepts spread in similar lines?


----------



## Akashiro Tamaya

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The subject of this thread is about the pinan and pyung ahn hyungs. In shotokan, these forms are called Heien. These forms developed in okinawa, moved to japan and then moved to korea. I think it is interesting to note the geographic line this knowledge spread. I wonder if other concepts spread in similar lines?


 
John, please don't view this as a flaming response.  I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught  were lifted out from a book.  So technically it never " moved" to korea.   General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata. 

PS:  The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien".  I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.


----------



## Makalakumu

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> John, please don't view this as a flaming response. I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book. So technically it never " moved" to korea. General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata.
> 
> PS: The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien". I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.


 
The subject of Hwang Kee's training is a very interesting topic.  There are accounts that say he got them out of books and there are others that claim he trained with this or that person.  This subject is another thread altogether.


----------



## mtabone

Akashiro Tamaya,

Point taken. I was just in such a hurry to post last time, I was not thinking.

:asian: Thank You.

Michael TAbone


----------



## Kosokun

Gen Choi studied with Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan.  not Kyan.    Per. Gen Choi in a TKD Times article in 2000.

Rob




			
				Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> John, please don't view this as a flaming response. I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book. So technically it never " moved" to korea. General Choi's (I believed studied in Japan and recieved a Nidan grade under Chotoku Kyan or I could be wrong) ITF's have also "Bastardized" the Japanese Kata.
> 
> PS: The correct spelling of the Shotokan kata is " Heian" not "Heien". I realized it could be a typo but hope this helps.


----------



## rmclain

The founder of the Chang Moo Kwan (1946) in Korea, Byung In Yoon, studied under Kanken Toyama at Nihon University in Japan.  Toyama was a student of Anko Itosu in Okinawa.   

According to my teacher who began training in 1950 in Korea, most of the schools he saw and students he met were learning the pyung ahn forms and other karate forms.  So, there is another link for the pyung ahn forms in Korea besides the Moo Duk Won. 

R. McLain


----------



## Kosokun

rmclain said:
			
		

> So, there is another link for the pyung ahn forms in Korea besides the Moo Duk Won.
> 
> R. McLain



Absolutely!

Song Mu Kwan, founder Byung Jik Ro, was a student of Funakoshi.
Oh Do Kwan founder, Choi Hong Hi, was a student of Funakoshi
I've heard two stories about the Ji Do Kwan founder being a student of either Funakoshi or Mabuni. (My money's on Funakoshi)
Chang Mu Kwan's founder, Byung In Yoon, was a student of Toyama. 

Bottom line though, is that the most solid line for the introduction of the Pinan forms to Korea was via these students of Japanese instructors.  IOW, the Shotokan.

Rob


----------



## robertmrivers

Hello All

There is nothing wrong with doing Tang Soo Do and calling the forms whatever it is that the dialect calls for be it Korean, Japanese or Okinawan... this coming from a strict Okinawan kata stylist. I have students who come in from Korean styles who practice the same basic form structure and they transition nicely into the Okinawan kata skillset. 

The problem at hand (and its not really a problem...but more of a "how bad do you want to know the truth" kind if thing) is what happens after a Korean stylist learns everything that his Korean progenitors learned about their Japanese Kata influences? It must be taken into consideration that the Korean masters did not study in Japan long enought to learn the higher level skills of this very in depth art. Most begin to make up things to give their students more to learn...which is fine...but we are now getting away from the practices of most Okinawan teachers and the forms become simply a way to remember basic techniques. It is not about the kick or the punch or why did the front kick turn into a side kick... it is about most of our Korean martial arts brothers and sisters simply not knowing certain internal (secret, if you will) concepts and principles.

I hope this helps. After an Okinawan karate student learns a kata, he then goes on to learn the basic interpretation of the movements. This is no different than the Korean counterparts. However, what happens when this level of understanding is exhausted. In Okinawa, the student does not necessarily learn a new form. He learns to make what he already knows "better". 

It is this concept of "better" that separates Korean Tang Soo Do and Okinawan Karate. What makes it better? Is it being faster, or more powerful, or does the timing of the step in regards to the block or punch change? This is about the extent of making a form better in many schools. However, in Okinawan Karate, making these adjustments for timing, target, speed, power, and movement to advance one's uderstanding of a form is still "basic" understanding in Okinawan Karate yet it is the higher level of understanding of most Korean and Japanese arts. This is OK. The students are still learning respect, confidence, self discipline and self defense. These axioms are universal regardless of the country of origin of the martial art. 

The difference between Korean arts and Okinawan arts that many Okinawan Karate practitioners sometimes alude to is that the principles that take an Okinawan stylist from Basic understanding to Intermediate and then Advanced understanding never were taught to the Koreans...and most Japanese stylists (sorry). Thus, many Japanese stylists and Korean stylists who truly wish to learn what their instructors missed shed their skin and start to train in an Okinawan style...in hopes of learning the few missing elements of their training. The issue that is hard to get across is that it is not an "interpretation" issue or that different schools are always going to have differences. These missing "links" are PRINCIPLES and concepts that are hundreds of years old and are constant...not interpretive. They are universal regardless of style in the Okinawan martial arts ethos. 

When a Korean stylist understands that the forms they are doing are a map...a shell if you will, and the material they need to fill that shell can only be partially filled with their own indigenous methodology, then they are stepping in the right direction. Some continue to teach and train in their Korean art but will add these age old principles to their curriculum once they have learned them from qualified instructors. Others will actually transition to only studying or training in Okinawan Karate. Yet, more than the majority will chalk the differences up to interpretation and continue to teach the way they themselves were taught.  

Honestly, I have met more than one Tang Soo Do stylist who is more than happy simply teaching the way they were taught without changing a thing. Cool.

There is nothing in the world wrong with that. As long as you are training...THAT is all that matters. But, hopefully, now, some can see that asking the question "What is the difference between the Pyung Ahns and the Pinans?" is a truly loaded question. Korean stylists will point out technical differences. Okinawan stylists will point out technical, conceptual, philisophical and historical differences. The bottom line is, when it is all on "paper", so to speak, the two sets of forms are worlds apart. But it is not a bad thing as many will try to say. It is only bad if practitioners choose not to accept the differences as more than just interpretive differences. If you have the time, put that white belt on again and see what the commotion is all about. Then add what you learn to what you know. You'll be a better, more well rounded stylist for it.

Best

Rob Rivers


----------



## Makalakumu

robertmrivers said:
			
		

> But, hopefully, now, some can see that asking the question "What is the difference between the Pyung Ahns and the Pinans?" is a truly loaded question. Korean stylists will point out technical differences. *Okinawan stylists will point out technical, conceptual, philisophical and historical differences*. The bottom line is, when it is all on "paper", so to speak, the two sets of forms are worlds apart. But it is not a bad thing as many will try to say. It is only bad if practitioners choose not to accept the differences as more than just interpretive differences. If you have the time, put that white belt on again and see what the commotion is all about. Then add what you learn to what you know. You'll be a better, more well rounded stylist for it.


 
The conceptual, philosophical and historical differences is exactly where I wanted to take this discussion.  I'm trying to plumb the depth of our knowledge with a different yard stick.  We've talked about technical differences...now lets discuss the conceptual, philosophical, and historical.

We'll start with the name...

Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence in Korean.  

Pinan I have been told means Peaceful Mind.  

I can see some conceptual and philosophical differences in the nuances of these words...


----------



## robertmrivers

I think all we have here is a transliteration issue (like in the bible...hebrew to greek to english...but when you take the english back to the hebrew it doesn't translate literally). 

If you take the old language...Chinese, whose characters the Chinese, Okinawans, Japanese and Koreans all use on the scholastic level, you will find that it is the same 2 characters that are used. They are just pronounced differently depending on the dialect. I don't think there is anything philisophically different about the two translations. It is like in the term Passai...or Bassai (the form)...some translate one of the terms as "castle" and some "fortress". They are slightly different...but the same message is getting across. 

Let me pose a simple question that can be the beginning of a technical, historical and philisophical aspect of Okinawan Karate...

Now, I don't speak Korean, so I will need you help. What is the Korean phrase for "forward stance" (or front stance...bow and arrown stance...whatever your school calls it) as it pertains to a form.

Look forward to hearing back

Rob Rivers


----------



## Makalakumu

Chun Gul Jaseh = front stance

Good question...I'm really curious to see where this goes!


----------



## Kosokun

Robert, 

That was very well put.

Rob


----------



## Jonathan Randall

robertmrivers said:
			
		

> Hello All
> 
> There is nothing wrong with doing Tang Soo Do and calling the forms whatever it is that the dialect calls for be it Korean, Japanese or Okinawan... this coming from a strict Okinawan kata stylist. I have students who come in from Korean styles who practice the same basic form structure and they transition nicely into the Okinawan kata skillset.
> 
> The problem at hand (and its not really a problem...but more of a "how bad do you want to know the truth" kind if thing) is what happens after a Korean stylist learns everything that his Korean progenitors learned about their Japanese Kata influences? It must be taken into consideration that the Korean masters did not study in Japan long enought to learn the higher level skills of this very in depth art.
> 
> The difference between Korean arts and Okinawan arts that many Okinawan Karate practitioners sometimes alude to is that the principles that take an Okinawan stylist from Basic understanding to Intermediate and then Advanced understanding never were taught to the Koreans...and most Japanese stylists (sorry).
> 
> Rob Rivers


 
Rob, that was an excellent post. I would like to add that while, Japanese and Korean Karate are missing the nuances of their Okinawan parents, they have evolved their own intricacies and subtleties, thus developing their OWN unique strengths.

Still, you are very correct, IMHO, in your description of what occured in the translation and you have done so with far more class than Mr. Williams did. I have never doubted that the original practioners of these forms would have a different and perhaps greater understanding of their full meaning.


----------



## robertmrivers

Hello All...I am enjoying this very much

There is no doubt that the Japanese and Korean evolutions of the arts are VERY strong. This will not be a whose art is better discussion I hope. I hope to just add some perspective on the subject that can be used by everyone that they may know some of the nuanceswhich will in turn make everyone better at what they do.  It has never been in my nature to degrade people just for knowing something that they dont that is all this comes down to. Some people know certain things about the arts and they are going to 

A. Share
Or
B. Keep it to themselves and continue to facilitate this generation gap. 

I like to give people the benefit of the doubtthat they WANT to understand. So Ill choose A.

What many arts term a front stanceChun Gul Jaseh (thanks for the Korean lesson upnorth) in Korean and Zenkutsu dachi in Japanese, is one of the staples of any form. 

One thing that gets missed, however, is that Zenkutsu Dachithe original phrase, does not mean forward or front stance. It means Zen (forward) Kutsu (lean) Dachi (stance) or forward leaning stance. Literally, one leans forward in the stance. Thus, our historical difference. (I would be curious to learn the literal, word for word translation of Chun and Gul. Perhaps its there but has been mis-translated for so long that nobody notices. )

The technical difference is that when executing a technique from this stance, the upper body is leaning slightly forwardnot back straight as I am sure so many students have heard their teachers tell them. Here is an analogy as to why this is incorrect and it is just one of MANY reasons why 

When you punch someone, think of yourself as a 2 barreled shotgun. The first barrel is your lower bodyspecifically your lead hip to your front leg. The second barrel is your upper bodylead hip to lead shoulder to lead hand. I am going to discuss the upper barrel (not enough time for the other). When you shoot a shot gun, the stock has to be firmly against your shoulder. If it is not, the recoil will knock you back and make the shot more inaccurate. Imagine now that the shotgun is suspended in the air. If we pull the trigger, the shotgun will actually blow backwards. This is how most people punch: You step forward, twist your hips forward, move your punch forwardand then at the last second snap your back up straight moving your body motion backwards, then all of that power you were trying to generate forward towards the target gets sent backwards. This is one of the first things an Okinawan Karate stylist will notice about a Korean stylist performing their version of a Pinan or other kata.

We teach that the forward leaning stance must have a slight lean to italmost equal to the angle in the back leg. This way, everything you are using to generate power is moving forward. This is one of many technical differences in the two methodologies. One has the back straight for proper posture and to look sharp, snapping into place. The other doesnt care what it looks likephysics dictate what it must do in order to maximize the power of the technique. 

Now, philosophically, there are many thingsbut lets talk about one major thingirimi, irimi, irimi. Irimi means entering or closing distance. Ultra simplified, if your back is straight, you cant reach as far and you are moving away from the target. But it goes much deeper than this. Irimi is the attitude of almost every technique in a kata. We cant get into this too much without actually performing the kata, demonstrating the several layers of understanding of each movement within the kata, and then making note of the common threads of the many kata one of which is irimi. E-mail does have its limitations. But, again, if I watch someone doing kata, I can tell what is going on in their mind. Are they doing a choreographed exerciseor are they actually in a fight?

This is one very small element of one very insignificant movement in a form. We have looked at one historical, technical and philosophical difference in only this one stance. We have not even put the stance to work yet. 

A form has many stances and techniques. There are many forms. We get into these stances by moving forward, stepping to the side, turning around, and stepping backall of which are NOT just a pattern. These different movements are significant and the principles of explicating these movements is yet another concept that MUST be learned in order to get the proper perspective of the Okinawan masters. 

This is one of the roots of frustration that some Okinawan stylists have with their Korean counterparts. What compounds the problem is that most are not willing to do what it takes to get the point across without it sounding argumentative. The problem is, if you dont explain it logically, it gets interpreted as a culture issue or a personality issue. I hope I am getting the logic across. 

Okinawan Karate and Korean Karate are different. Not in appearance but what lies in their inner teachings. It is not cultural and is not up to interpretation. However, with a little hard work, many of these generation gaps can be filled.

It is not that one is better than the other. However, we all have an incessant need to go back to our past. Simply, if you do the Pyung Ahnsyou need to know where they come from. There are many Korean stylists in the world who are now researchingseveral on this forum. Ill certainly do my best to steer you guys (and gals) in the right direction. 

Another example: Ankoh Itosu broke up the kata Kusanku into 5 parts to make it easier for students to learn the basicsthe 5 Pinans. So, just when you have mastered these kata, you move on to the ORIGINAL kata and learn why all the pieces are laid out the way they are. But the Pinans have to be understood on a few different levels first. This is what makes this training so interesting. The technical, historical and philosophical are all intertwined and must all be understood to appreciate the kata.

I hope all of this isnt confusing. There is simply too much and it will NEVER get explained accurately unless it is done on the floor. This forum will open some doors and some thought processes might change, however, you have to see it and feel it to truly understand it. 

If you have any questions about anything dont hesitate to ask. I am only sorry I didnt discover all of the curious practitioners on this medium sooner. You can PM or post here. If youd like me to touch on another subject as it pertains to these concepts just say the word. If youre close, just come by the dojo

Best

Rob Rivers


----------



## The Kai

While it is true many okinwans karateka lean, could there be  a reason that the Japanese and Korean elimanted this part of the move.  
I think that Kyokushinkai leans in slightly when practing thier punchs, don't quote me on this tho, but I remember when we in the pracice stance the feeling of your weight being on the front part of your foot


----------



## robertmrivers

If I am understanding the question correctly...Its not a matter of leaning your weight on the front foot. The weight distribution across the styles is actually the same...more weight on the front than on the back. It is the angle of the upper body that is the lean... Kyokushin and many mainland Japanese styles do lean...most will if the attitude is to move in. Kyokushin is a fighting style so they understand many of the principles of Irimi (entering), Seme (pressure) and Sen no Sen (attacking the intent).

Rob Rivers


----------



## robertmrivers

If the lean was eliminated, in my opinion, it was for aesthetic reasons. In Japan, posture is very important. Thus, many Shotokan practitioners keep their back straight. It is not to say they do not hit hard (believe me they do!) but they could harder by leaning and doing a few other things with their stance...

Rob Rivers


----------



## The Kai

I have never studied Shotokan, have been hit by a few of them tho', but fromn what i have read they think that keeping a straight spine helps protect the spine.  I do not know if this was the original intent or Reverse engineering to explain the difference


----------



## Kosokun

Rob, 

As you're undoubtedly aware, Shotokan isn't the only Japanese style or group that keeps their back relatively perpendicular to the ground. The various shito ryu groups, including the large Motobu Ha factions in the US, do as well. 


Wado leans forward in their junzuki dachi, but have their spines upright elsewhere. You can see it in the wado version of Seishan.

In trying to recall watching the kata of the US Members of the Shorinkan (Shuguro Nakazato's group) I don't recall them leaning forward at the waist.

As a yondan, I trained in kobudo with a fellow who was also a senior instructor in matsubayashi shorin ryu.  We trained karate together, too, and we kept our backs straight.  

I recall that the San Diego Ryuei Ryu group keeps their back stright and I don't recall seeing Sakumoto leaning, either. The Ryuei Ryu kata that I know, I came to via Hayashi-ha. Backs straight there, too. 

So, I don't think it's a "Japanese thing", as a lot of the Okinawan styles or Okinawa influenced styles (like Motobu Ha and Hayashi Ha) also keep their backs stright. 


**Warning:  SWAG's to follow***
As to reasons why the spine's erect, perhaps it's the influence of the sword. My experience, thus far, is that one's spine is erect in nukitsuke and kiri oroshi. 

It could also be the influence of jyu kumite. I find that if I lean into a punch and I've not dropped my opponent, it's difficult to avoid his counterpunch. With my back straight, I can deliver sufficient horspower to the target and, should my technique fail, I can still get out and avoid the counter strike. 

Might it also be the influence of Asian medicine and concepts of ki? My tai chi instr's have always taught to keep the spine upright and the shoulders down to keep the qi paths open and unblocked. 

Sure, esthetics can figure in, too.

Or some combination of these.

Or, perhaps the upright back is the rule and the lean is the exception in Okinawan and Japanese karate.


Rob




			
				robertmrivers said:
			
		

> If the lean was eliminated, in my opinion, it was for aesthetic reasons. In Japan, posture is very important. Thus, many Shotokan practitioners keep their back straight. It is not to say they do not hit hard (believe me they do!) but they could harder by leaning and doing a few other things with their stance...
> 
> Rob Rivers


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## The Kai

There is a relatively new book outthere that the author details the lean (among other things) as the secret to power.  I wouls also not be a big fan of leaning in while sparrring


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## Makalakumu

This discussion is absolutely fantastic.  I feel really good about our community on MT when we can bring so many diverse styles to together and discuss our differences so civilly...and have everyone listen to each other.

In TSD chun gul jaseh means front stance.  I need to go back to the gm's book to find the original translation, so that will have to wait.  When we do front stance, we are taught to keep our back straight...with a caveat.  My teacher taught us keep it bowed so that when we punch, the physics of the force involved and the anatomy of the body transfer down to the feet.  

This is so hard to talk about without being able to show it, so here it goes...

On your first class in TSD, one is taught how to stand in a position called the five bows.  This is a natural curving postion of the limbs and back that takes very little energy to maintain.  It also naturally articulates the body so that there is a connection to the spine.  When we step into front stance, this posture is maintained with the back, the arms and the neck.  And when we punch, the force of that punch transfers directly through the arm, into the spine, and into the rooted feet.  Using these mechanics, we are able to strike incredibly hard.  

There is so much more that we learn from front stance.  The intermediate postions of the hands, the footwork in the feet, the generation of power in the hips, etc...

The bottom line is that Hwang Kee, when he founded our art, drew deeply from the physical and anatomical sciences and eastern philosophy.  Our neh-gung (spirit) is grounded in our weh-gung (physical).  

upnorthkyosa


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## robertmrivers

Good Stuff

We are now starting to get more technical which is great.

1. Many people straighten their backs as they are punching. If you do this your power goes backwards. Therefore when you practice kata, you lean slightly forward.

2. Naturally different styles are going to have different takes on it. However, watching a Shito Ryu practitioner (especially Motobu ha, of which I am a 5th degree) or a Shorin kan practitioner (Kuniba, Motobu ha,  studied under Chibana...Nakazato's teacher) is not the same as doing it. What you may not notice is that the stances themselves are more upright, the feet not as deep. Remember, the lean is going to follow (roughly speaking) the angle of the back leg. So if the stance is more upright, the angle in the back leg is going to be shallower...in turn making the "lean" less noticable. But, believe me, they are leaning into the punch. You of course know the Hayashi link and the Motobu ha link... I lean into my punch. 

3. You would never lean into someone's attack...you lean into the strike...and please don't over-exaggerate the word lean. It simply means pressure forward and do not snap your body upright when you strike.

4. I study Iaido, my Sensei is in Japan. We lean when we cut. Kendo doesn't as it is "sport". Some Iaido styles don't...our's does. It is called "kireru iai"...or cutting iai. If you do not pressure in, you have no advantage and it leaves your opponent open to come in on you.
5. I do the Wado Seisan...and I know the lean you speak of...and you REALLY Lean...but the application warrants it. It is not a simple punch to the chest...
6. I have seen Sakumoto Sensei's Anan...for example on the shoto uchi, (palm heel) and he does not have his back perfectly straight...Ryuei Ryu stances are also A: shorter which changes the angle in the back leg and the angle in the back and B: the shoto uchi is off of the back leg which changes the dynamic of it a bit as well...

As always, some things that are said on a forum get spun out of control... Here is my point...

When you see many people perform a lunging punch in a kata that uses a forward stance, the moment before impact or "snap" their back snaps up straight and often times needs to move backwards to achieve this erect posture. 

Don't get the protractors out 

I am just saying keep the pressure forward and hit with your whole body. If you are erect or moving back...you are not hitting with your body. 

Incidently, our Naihanchi leans forward as well...which sounds silly because the kata goes side to side. But the truth is in the application.

Hope this clears things up... unfortunately, ultimately, it not cut and dry...lean or don't lean...I am speaking of a general practice...

Best

Rob Rivers


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## Flying Crane

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.


 
geeze.  some people just have no social grace...


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## The Kai

In regards to the lean
On a stepping punch what about rotation?
UpNorth Kyosa gave the paramerters of thier front stance, however stances and punchs are not static but dynamic


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> In regards to the lean
> On a stepping punch what about rotation?
> UpNorth Kyosa gave the paramerters of thier front stance, however stances and punchs are not static but dynamic


 
When we do our basic techniques, we keep in mind the principle of tension/relaxation.  (There is a Korean term for this, but I'll forgo it for now)  Our intermediate postions are fluid, mobile, and dynamic.  Our root and articulation is shifting and adaptable.  When we strike there is an explosive moment of root that whips our bodies into a brief moment of tension.  Our punches are like an iron ball on a chain.  "POW!" and relax.  

All of this flows from our feet, up through the movement of our hips, and into our extemities.


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## The Kai

And yet there is a tendency to plant our heel when punching, if we punch to shift weight through a target should we not roll onto the ball of the back foot (ala boxing).  Relaxing through a punch it would make more sense to roll up on the foot!  yes or no?  
I apologize if we are drifting a tad

Thnks
Todd
BTW Upnorth Dude great thread


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> And yet there is a tendency to plant our heel when punching, if we punch to shift weight through a target should we not roll onto the ball of the back foot (ala boxing). Relaxing through a punch it would make more sense to roll up on the foot! yes or no?
> I apologize if we are drifting a tad
> 
> Thnks
> Todd
> BTW Upnorth Dude great thread


 
When we move forward in front stance, the back foot is connected to the floor and it transfers the force of our body.  As the front foot completes its sweep into "the channel" the hips snap forward and the punch snaps out.  If the articulation of the body is correct and the feet properly rooted, the tori should feel the force of the punch transfer from the fist, down the arm, into the spine, and into the foot.  In order to properly do this, the back heel MUST be down, or the force of the punch will drive it down...weakening the overall structure.  The principle of tension and relaxation doesn't really affect this.  Bad technique, however, does.


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## The Kai

So you are saying that you basically push off with the back foot, and at some point the front leg takes over the effort, right?  If the idea of a punch is to quickly dispalce another persons mass withthe mass of your arm and not push attacker would nor being up on the back heel help shift forward and also with a end point rotation?

Do you see where I am going


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> So you are saying that you basically push off with the back foot, and at some point the front leg takes over the effort, right? If the idea of a punch is to quickly dispalce another persons mass withthe mass of your arm and not push attacker would nor being up on the back heel help shift forward and also with a end point rotation?
> 
> Do you see where I am going


 
I think so...

In TSD, a punch in front stance accelerates the entire mass of the body in order to create a force.  The rotational snap of the hips generates the acceleration of the body necessary to generate force.  The rootedness of the feet provides a basis in which to push...ala Newtons Third Law...action and reaction forces.  

If one lifts up the back heel at the moment of of the strike, there is a transferrence of force through the body that causes the body to rock back onto that stablity point.  This force that transfers through the body is exactly equal to the force applied in the punch.  

So both peices have to be in place in order for a proper front punch in front stance to take place.  The feet should be rooted and the hips should rotate forward.  So, I guess, it would be an endpoint, very brief and transitory as one heads into the next technique, but it is an end, nonetheless.

When I look at a form, any form, I should be able to see these end points with beginning students and as a student grows, they will gradually smooth them out into pure fluidity.


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## The Kai

Newton'd third law is cited an awful lot, but let me ask you how about a spear or a bullet.  Does the impact lessen cuz there is no brace?  Does momentum give penatration?

Try this at home punch a heavy bag for a couple of minutes as hard as you can.  Do you do it from a boxer's stance or a rooted stance??


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## The Kai

Or breaking-which should be the expression of well braced rooted strenght powering through various objects-How many times to you see the person roll his back foot up?
Sorry-I could'nt fingth edit button(I hate quoting myself)


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## jujutsu_indonesia

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that the forms or Hyung that the founder of Tang Soo Do taught were lifted out from a book..


 
Then Mr. Hwang must be a super genius if he was able to study many forms just from a book! I have books, videos, CDROMs and even teachers (who are licensed in Japan) teaching me the Pinans and to this day after 5 years of Wado-ryu I am still unable to perform any of them properly


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## Makalakumu

In the pyung ahn forms, there are all kinds of different stances and in many of these stances a "punch" is delivered.  

Punching in front stance is only one type of punching.  The context of the form is very important and stances are telling one everything they need to know about the footwork in an application.

With a front punch, the purpose is to drive the entire body forward and really propell yourself from a rooted position.  Why?  Because some application are telling you to really drive into your opponent.  Or sometimes the punch isn't a punch, its a joint lock and you are going to use your body's forward motion to break the joint.  

The front stance is telling me that a technique is being performed from a rooted postion.  Another stance would tell me something different.  I hope this makes sense...

upnorthkyosa


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## Makalakumu

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Then Mr. Hwang must be a super genius if he was able to study many forms just from a book! I have books, videos, CDROMs and even teachers (who are licensed in Japan) teaching me the Pinans and to this day after 5 years of Wado-ryu I am still unable to perform any of them properly


 
I don't think he received _all_ his training from books...


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## The Kai

One more little question
Do your forms have a "boxer's stance while punching"

The Front stance Punch most basic application is punching, right?  even in the context of driving your weight into a joint shifting up to the ball of the rear foor shifts your weight forward-would that not be a good thing?  You are breaking the joint (imapct) rather then reinforcing the joint (bracing)

I just wonder why the rooted heel is so strongly entrenchened.


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> One more little question.  Do your forms have a "boxer's stance while punching"


 
Yes.  Hu gul jaseh and Han Bao Seo Kee.  The first is more of a back stance, but the latter can be interpretted as a weight forward boxer stance.  We don't teach Han Bao until red belt...and I think this is a mistake, so I go through some basic boxing well before that time.



> The Front stance Punch most basic application is punching, right? even in the context of driving your weight into a joint shifting up to the ball of the rear foor shifts your weight forward-would that not be a good thing? You are breaking the joint (imapct) rather then reinforcing the joint (bracing)


 
I think the importance of working a front stance with beginners is not neccessarily to teach them to punch, but to teach them to move their bodies and use their hips.  Feeling any root takes lots of practice and the fundamentals that teach this take a LOOOONG time to learn.  



> I just wonder why the rooted heel is so strongly entrenchened.


 
I think that the reason it is so prevelent just goes to show just how much tuite is in our forms.  The infighting and stuff from the clinch is everywhere and I think that this rooted position coupled with ways to move our bodies that maximize our power give us some key fundamentals to deal with these situations.


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## The Kai

Watch a boxer in tghe clinch they still are off thier heels, in fact more then one commentator watch the heels to see when a fighter is slowing.
Evne in Tuite here's a example when you want to chop a branch in have with a axe, do you swing the axe or brace it under a rock and use the handle to apply pressure?

Maybe the back heel being down is vestigal from the okinwan leaning stance


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## jujutsu_indonesia

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I don't think he received _all_ his training from books...


 
Perhaps he took his time to study some Karate in Japan, like what Oyama sensei did? I know of some Korean people (Oyama sensei was one) who studied Japanese martial art under Japanese name.. Even the famous Rikidozan (Momota Mitsuhiro) was actually a Korean..


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## Makalakumu

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Perhaps he took his time to study some Karate in Japan, like what Oyama sensei did? I know of some Korean people (Oyama sensei was one) who studied Japanese martial art under Japanese name.. Even the famous Rikidozan (Momota Mitsuhiro) was actually a Korean..


 
To tell you the truth, I just don't know.  There is so much information out there that its hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.  And in reality, for me, it doesn't matter.  All of my upline instructors were broad based martial artists with my teacher's teacher's teacher being probably the best martial artist I have EVER seen.  And Master Seiberlich was a direct student of Hwang Kee.  That has got to say something about the gm's training...


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> Watch a boxer in tghe clinch they still are off thier heels, in fact more then one commentator watch the heels to see when a fighter is slowing.
> 
> Even in Tuite here's an example when you want to chop a branch in have with a axe, do you swing the axe or brace it under a rock and use the handle to apply pressure?
> 
> Maybe the back heel being down is vestigal from the okinwan leaning stance?


 
I think it all depends on the situation and the context of the form.  Some techniques are rooted and others are not.

In TSD we don't really train for a fight that resembles a boxing match.  When we get into the clinch, we're ready to work.

Maybe some of the Okinawan stylists will come back and give us some insight into how they view the heel issue?


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## The Kai

The clinch in boxing (between 2 good boxers) is very active.  When a fighter gets tired it tends to become a hug fest


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## jujutsu_indonesia

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> To tell you the truth, I just don't know. There is so much information out there that its hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. And in reality, for me, it doesn't matter. All of my upline instructors were broad based martial artists with my teacher's teacher's teacher being probably the best martial artist I have EVER seen. And Master Seiberlich was a direct student of Hwang Kee. That has got to say something about the gm's training...


 
Yup. I agree that Mr. Hwang Kee should be considered as one of the most prominent figures of korean martial arts in the 20th century. And the forms he created himself (like the Chul Sang series) is also very nice


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## The Kai

So nwithin the context of the Kata, Pyung has a much strighter spine then the Okinwan version.

How about the differneces in stepping keep the same level or ride up and down?

Blocks, where is the start position, where does the other hand do during the block?


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> The clinch in boxing (between 2 good boxers) is very active. When a fighter gets tired it tends to become a hug fest


 
On thing I don't like about boxing is how knees and elbows aren't used in the clinch.  There are some good punches that one can try, but knees and elbows are far more effective weapons.  There are some good combinations in pyung ahn cho dan.


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> So nwithin the context of the Kata, Pyung has a much strighter spine then the Okinwan version.


 
I think so, however, we still keep our spines curved forward for some of the reasons mentioned by Mr. Rivers.



> How about the differneces in stepping keep the same level or ride up and down?


 
It depends on the stance.  Our horse stance is lower them our front stance.  And our back stance is higher then our front stance.  



> Blocks, where is the start position, where does the other hand do during the block?


 
This depends on the technique.  There is always an intermediate postion.  Both hands are always doing something.  For instance, with our down block, the off hand curls around to the short ribs.


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## The Kai

Yes putting elbows, forearms, knees into clinch fighting can be a ton of fun

Okay when you move from one stance into the next, do you keep level or rise up and down


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## Makalakumu

The Kai said:
			
		

> Okay when you move from one stance into the next, do you keep level or rise up and down


 
When moving in from one stance to the same stance we keep level.  If we are shifting stances, we alter our height.  Horse stances tend to be very deep.  Front stances are a little higher.  Back stances are higher still.


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## The Kai

So when you do a Inplace transition-you would rise up-why?  is there any reason behind this


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## robertmrivers

Perfect...

I have decided to put an explanation on video and upload it to my site or even  make it available to interested parties via regular mail. 

I tried to write it down, but it doesn't work. Too long...too complicated...and we are only talking about one basic stance.

Suffice to say, you are discussing exactly what I thought you would. Power, Newton's third law, history, philosophy, practicality of the stance...etc.

You're missing it.

More to come...(How's that for suspense...)

Keep training

Rob Rivers


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## Jonathan Randall

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> On thing I don't like about boxing is how knees and elbows aren't used in the clinch. There are some good punches that one can try, but knees and elbows are far more effective weapons. There are some good combinations in pyung ahn cho dan.


 
That's a great point and why I add elbows and knees to my boxing combination (solos, not in a class). I lost my Grandmaster's book on TSD, but this thread has made me want to look up the old forms. I do like that TSD emphasizes a waist twist in its forms that is similiar to boxing and generates substantial power.


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