# Taxi driver kills 12 and wounds 25 in English Lake District



## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2010)

News is coming in now of a taxi driver who went on the rampage right across the Lake District with a shot gun, killing 12 people and injuring 25 before killing himself. the original news this morning said 5 dead but I have the news is on now and the death count has gone up.
this is an earlier news report.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...lice-hunt-gunman-after-several-shot-dead.html


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## Sukerkin (Jun 2, 2010)

A most saddening thing to happen.  

A work colleague of mine is in that area (we have offices up there) and an old University friend of mine is from Seascale.  Over and above the normal human reaction and, daft as it may be to worry according to 'probability', it is hard not to be concerned.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 2, 2010)

So sad!  My thought and prayers go out to all of the families of the victims!


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2010)

Absolutely shocking. The people of Cumbria have gone through a lot recently, devasting floods, two children killed last week in a bus crash (police officers were attending a memorial service for the lass when they were called out) and now this. It's a small county and they've had to call on the help of neighbouring police as well as two non Home Office forces. The RAF helped the air ambulances ferry people to hospital. There's over 30 crime scenes.
Latest news  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/10214661.stm

The Cumbrians are stoic, good country folk but dear lord, this is terrible for them, my prayers and thoughts are with them.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 2, 2010)

An awful thing.  Makes you wonder about the intelligence of banning weapons all over again.  Had the fella on the news who phoned 999 gone instead and got his 9mm things might have been very different.  Easy to say though. Still looking for casualties apparently.  Terrible.

Tez, am I right in thinking there are only two non-Home Office forces?  Cumbria springing to mind as a logical concentration of one of them.

Curious that the police said they were keen to discover whether he had a licence for the gun.  Because that will make all the difference.  That would suggest that it was a shotgun, as has been alluded to.  One of the locals reported a 'very long sniper rifle'. 

Awful.


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## Tez3 (Jun 2, 2010)

FieldDiscipline said:


> An awful thing. Makes you wonder about the intelligence of banning weapons all over again. Had the fella on the news who phoned 999 gone instead and got his 9mm things might have been very different. Easy to say though. Still looking for casualties apparently. Terrible.
> 
> Tez, am I right in thinking there are only two non-Home Office forces? Cumbria springing to mind as a logical concentration of one of them.
> 
> ...


 
From what they were saying on our local news (we are all 'north' as far as the tv companies are concerned) it was a shotgun and a .22 with telescopic sight.
The Nuclear Police were deployed from Windscale which was locked down and the Modplod being an armed force were the two non Home Office forces. 
There's nearly 2 million shotguns in the country several thousand of them in Cumbria, we in North Yorks have thousands too. 

The scary thing is that he's lived there all his life, as with these places everyone knows everyone, he was quiet, likable, not known to have any weapns, liked motorbikes and scuba diving. Perfectly normal until this morning then it seems a literal brainstorm. 


The witnesses said that despite sitting holding the bodies of the victims said they didn't believe they'd been shot, it was so out of their experience they could do nothing. As one said it was surreal. As I said there's plenty of guns in Cumbria and there's plenty who would have shot him but the unbelievable happened so fast they could do nothing. It's like your grandad or next door neighbour you'd known for all your life suddenly killing people. He was in his 4x4  shooting as he was driving, he covered most of the county in those three hours. Seems he slowed, targetted, shot then hared off to the next place on his agenda. You could have had any number of people armed with 9mm or whatever and it would have been impossible to take him down in his vehicle without causing more casualties.

I think this has little to do with guns more finding out what could turn a nice middle aged man into a killer leaving a trail or carnage over most of the county.


_"Kirsty McGrath, from Cleator, near Egremont, echoed his thoughts. _
_"We have seen police cars flying up and down the main street and heard sirens for most of the morning. _
_"It can't be real, you see these things happening on TV but think they won't affect your village." _
_However, *Esther Phillips, who was on holiday in Egremont with a view to moving to Whitehaven, said she had been impressed by the way the community reacted as people sought shelter in a gallery. *_
_*"The manager was there, along with several locals and tourists. We drank tea and were very well looked after," she said. *_
*"People here are shocked as this is very unusual. But people are also very quiet, it feels like there's community spirit." *

*http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10218119.stm*


I know to many the Brits sitting drinking tea in the time of crisis is a cliche but aren't they the most brilliant people? Tragedy after tragedy and they sit with quiet dignity putting their lives back together again.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 2, 2010)

A candle lit for those who lost loved ones.


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## knuckleheader (Jun 2, 2010)

Condolances to all the victims and their families.


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## CanuckMA (Jun 2, 2010)

5 posts. When I first saw the thread, one of the first things that came to mind was 'how long before somebosy chimes in with the usual if the populace was armed, this would not have taken place.'

Just amazing.


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## tellner (Jun 2, 2010)

My condolences to the families of the victims. If he acquired the weapons illegally I hope the seller is tracked down and prosecuted to the full extent of the Law.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 3, 2010)

All legal and above board and owned for twenty years, *Tellner*. 

He just went crackers and used the tools he had at his disposal to first rid himself of those that annoyed him and then a few extra before finally turning on himself.

As we ever say, guns don't kill people, people do ... but the gun makes it all too easy.

Small update is that my workmate had left the area before the horrible events occurred and my old university friend has not been reported amongst those slain.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Jun 3, 2010)

My condolensces to the victims and their families.  

I once again find myself wondering, why do we keep hearing news stories about suicidal people who first take their rage out on innocent victims before offing themselves?  Can't they just take themselves out first and be done with it?  I know I'm asking reason of people who're obviously beyond rational thought, but c'mon.


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2010)

I was frantically tryng to get on to Iain Abernethy's website last nite but AOL were messing around so I went to bed not able to, as many know he's a renown martial artist and a brilliant exponent of karate Bunkai, he lives in Cumbria with his wife and children. I've spoken to his wife on the phone before and she's a lovely friendly lady, Iain must have been frantic about his family.
I've just checked his site and this is what he said about the day, truly terrifying but luckily they are alright
http://www.iainabernethy.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000522;p=1#000000



Statements by the Home Secretary and the Deputy Chief Constable have said that everything possible is being done to find out the how and why, the how they said is being investigated by over 100 detectives so they are sure they can piece together the events of the day. What they said though is that they can't promise they will find out why. They have confirmed he wasn't on medication, wasn't diagnosed with any mental health issues and had seemed totally 'normal' in all respects. The weapons were legally held, he had convictions for theft a few years back, no prison time so likely to be petty. He became a grandfather just last week, he also though shot and killed his twin brother.
It's being spoken of as a completely freakish 'brainstorm' almost, Cumbria is a very safe area, think Beatrix Potter little villages and Wordsworth daffodils, among hills and lakes, totally beautiful. If you ever have a chance to go please do so, you won't regret it.

On the subject of gun laws, the Home Secretary said nothing will be said or done until a complete investigation of the case by the police and an enquiry to see if anything could have been done to avoid this, my gut feeling is no. The police forces, emergency servies, RAF and everyone concerned acted in the most professional way and while the tragic loss of life is awful, quick action by police and others I'm sure saved other lives, there was no gung ho tactics by the armed response teams who I know would not have hesitated to shoot to kill if necessary and safe to do so.


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## zDom (Jun 3, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> , guns don't kill people, people do ... but the gun makes it all too easy.



So do automobiles. People have been using them as lethal weapons increasingly. Way too easy to run someone over.

Airplanes are even more effective: I don't know of any rifle, shotgun or handgun that can take out a whole skyscraper and the hundreds of people within with a single action.

Fire is bad, too. Kills people all the time  both with heat and smoke. Ditto for petrol: Molotov cocktails! Ouch. I think I'd rather be shot than burn to death.

Oh: and water. People are always drowning other people  and water is EVERYWHERE!! Better add that to the list.

The point is, if someone is going to go berserk there are plenty of things readily at their disposal to make it easier to kill people.


As a (arguably) skilled martial artists, I would LOVE to stuff the genie back in the bottle. I would be MUCH happier and feel MUCH more secure if firearms could be un-invented.

But firearms can not be un-invented. Even if they are all destroyed, the know-how can't be: someone will just make more.

And criminals and crazies can and will get their hands on them. Stand to reason, then, in my opinion, that the best solution is to arm myself and train to the point where I am better, I hope, than the Bad Guys.

At least I have a fighting chance that way.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 3, 2010)

A very sad story. 

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 3, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think this has little to do with guns more finding out what could turn a nice middle aged man into a killer leaving a trail or carnage over most of the county.


 
A nice middle aged man who mowed down a bunch of his nice, unarmed, fellow citizens with a gun. 

Disarming the general populace - whatever the intention - is a way to control people you don't trust. When, not if, someone gets their hands on a weapon the rest don't have it will never end well.

Pax,

Chris


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 3, 2010)

Such a beautiful place has been tarnished by a madman! In hindsight we can see that there were Pre Incident Indicators to suggest he just might do something crazy. 

-He had been in a vicious argument with both his brother and family solicitor, concerning his mother's will.

-After another vicious argument with fellow taxi drivers, he calmly shook them by the hand and told them that they would never see him again. He also said that there would be violent encounters starting with his mother. His coworkers just laughed at him.

-He was known to have legal firearms and his recent erratic behaviour was out of character.

I'm not saying anything could've been done, I'm just saying that we have to start taking people's threats seriously. If someone suggest that they're about to go postal, especially after stress such as a dying relative, estrangement of family or losing a job, we should take them seriously. 

My heart goes out to all the families mourning their loved ones today. I hope that this lunatic's family our also considered victims by the populace. They too will be mourning today and they are left with the stigma of being associated with this guy.


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## tellner (Jun 3, 2010)

*"If it bleeds, it leads!"*

This is shocking precisely because it's unusual. One of the great problems with the Information Age is its lust for novelty. A Cumbrian is more likely to get struck by lightning, but this will get played and re-played and over analyzed and turned into a moral panic because it captures eyeballs and sells advertising. 

Hell, most Americans think the crime rate is at record highs when it's down to its lowest levels in almost sixty years. 

We're constantly bombarded with scientifically designed appeals to our glands, so people take a tragedy and turn it into an obsession.


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2010)

The BBC newsnight programme did an interview via satellite with a Prof Cox an American criminologist who said this was a totally random, unpreventable event. He said that there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it as it's only after the fact that people are remembering things that were said by the man, who was known to make idle threats when very drunk. He also stated that the British gun laws are a success not a failure because this sort of crime is so extremely rare.
A family member of the killler has also said all the rumours of vicious family fights etc are untrue, it's all rumour and conjecture. It remains the case of a man who totally lost it and in doing so killed 12 people as well as injuring others.
Being armed may make you feel safe but when a mate you've known all your life pulls alongside you in his car and blasts you in the head with a shotgun you are no safer than anyone else. 
The government has again said there will be no knee jerk reactions to this and no new laws. People are believing the press way too much.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> People are believing the press way too much.



What's new?


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2010)

FieldDiscipline said:


> What's new?


 
Ain't that the truth! We have all the so called experts coming out of the woodwork with an opinion. And everyone has a theory!


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## jks9199 (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The scary thing is that he's lived there all his life, as with these places everyone knows everyone, he was quiet, likable, not known to have any weapns, liked motorbikes and scuba diving. Perfectly normal until this morning then it seems a literal brainstorm.
> 
> 
> ...
> ...



That's what comes out at first almost every time something like this happens.  "He was such a quiet guy... he was so normal..."  

Except, as you start to look into things, you'll probably find that there was a lot going on that wasn't seen or happened gradually enough or discretely enough that it was just accepted.

The cases like Seung-Hi Cho, where they were openly and clearly messed up to begin with, are pretty rare.  People just have a tendency to let things slip gradually and make allowances for their friends and neighbors.


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> That's what comes out at first almost every time something like this happens. "He was such a quiet guy... he was so normal..."
> 
> Except, as you start to look into things, you'll probably find that there was a lot going on that wasn't seen or happened gradually enough or discretely enough that it was just accepted.
> 
> The cases like Seung-Hi Cho, where they were openly and clearly messed up to begin with, are pretty rare. People just have a tendency to let things slip gradually and make allowances for their friends and neighbors.


 
Exactly! After the event though there's always those who 'knew' but it simply isn't true. It probably means we shouldn't bottle things up if anything is to be learnt from this, find someone, somewhere to let all that pain out in a constructive way not like this.


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## jks9199 (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Exactly! After the event though there's always those who 'knew' but it simply isn't true. It probably means we shouldn't bottle things up if anything is to be learnt from this, find someone, somewhere to let all that pain out in a constructive way not like this.


That's a great point.  Along the same lines, though, I'd say that we need to look out for each other and fight that natural tendency to let things slip.  From one of the posts above, there were apparently several preceding incidents.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the pattern was something like "Oh, he's just under a lot of stress because of..." or "he's just blowing off steam, he doesn't really mean that the way it sounds."

While you in England have lots more experience with terror -- sadly, I think we here in the US have the experience with these incidents.  And the truth is that there are lots of common factors... and we still see them go down the same way.  Too often, the red flags are only noticed in hind sight.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 5, 2010)

So what will the U.K. ban next? SOMETHING must be done! .22 bolt actions? All break open shotguns?

Not a short while ago in China many school children were killed by a nut with some knives.

So maybe that's it. Ban knives to (wait... I think they are banned, at least for carrying them.)

Yea, soon the U.K. will be down to spoons for dinner and not one firearm left (nor skill to use firearms) there. And one day the Visigoths will be at your door, and they will have guns and they will be skilled.

You had a close call in WW2 when we sent you a whole bunch of rifles and pistols to stop Hiler from coming over to say hi. I don't think you will have that luxury next time.

Deaf


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 5, 2010)

Deaf, it should go without saying I agree on all points but this really isn't the place nor time on a thread to the memory of those lost.

EDIT: My mistake, this is in the Study, not the Hall of Remembrance. Sorry about that.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 5, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ain't that the truth! We have all the so called experts coming out of the woodwork with an opinion. And everyone has a theory!


 
Like Prof. Cox.

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Like Prof. Cox.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


 
Yep but it was nice *not* to have an Anglo hating American mocking, sneering and belittling us.

Deaf, your comments as usual are pointless, you have no understanding of the Brits, you don't even like us and you usually get things wrong. Like criticising our police for ticking a singer off about waving a knife at an intruder, oh no, that's right, it turns out it didn't happen her agent made it up. Oh and you SOLD us the arms in that last war, it was no gift. Got America nicely out of the recession didn't it. 

Snipe and troll away, dear boy, they say ignorance is bliss and I do like to see you so happy.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 6, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Yep but it was nice *not* to have an Anglo hating American mocking, sneering and belittling us.


 
It's not hating Tez3. I could point out alot of the same thing in South America, Africa, Asia, etc...

It's just a good object lesson as to why a disarmed society is vulnerable.

Those Visigoths are for real.

Deaf


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> It's not hating Tez3. I could point out alot of the same thing in South America, Africa, Asia, etc...
> 
> It's just a good object lesson as to why a disarmed society is vulnerable.
> 
> ...


 

Oh yes it's hating because you don't point it out in any concerned way, you sneer, you patronise and you troll. You sit back and your computer believing it's your way or the wrong way and boy is everyone else wrong. 
And I bet you know exactly how you would have dealt with this Cumbrian kiler don't you? What I haven't mentioned is the comments that are going around about how if this had been America, the police would be out with the RPGs blowing the vehicle off the planet and most of the surrounding village with it, how the police would shoot everybody but the bad guy and so on and so on. How everybody would be out shooting and there'd be a massacre.
 Trust me, guns aren't that popular here and we've already shown our willingness and ability to fight against our country's enemies. I don't think we have anything to prove or to apologise for, our country, our rules, our people. If you don't like it, don't come here, stay away.

This government won't ban shotguns and rifles, it's the party of the landowners so it's never going to happen so wrong again I'm afraid.


Arming the population would have done nothing to save anyone in Cumbria on that day.  You can fool yourself into thinking you would have been the one to save everyone but over here the word 'cowboy' is used disparagingly to mean someone unqualified who botches a job and causes more damage.


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## jks9199 (Jun 6, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Deaf, it should go without saying I agree on all points but this really isn't the place nor time on a thread to the memory of those lost.
> 
> EDIT: My mistake, this is in the Study, not the Hall of Remembrance. Sorry about that.


That's OK; it's still not the place or time to do a rant on gun rights.  England has their history and their laws.  There's no automatic reason to believe that any right of gun ownership or carry would have changed the outcome.

At the moment, this looks very much like a typical spree killing.  These often involve people who could legally possess the weapons used.  Warning signs were ignored or discounted.  And people died.  Maybe we should walk away with the idea that just maybe if we pay attention to those around us, and not discount them or the red flags, we can prevent them without ANYBODY getting hurt.


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## Grenadier (Jun 6, 2010)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
Please keep this conversation civil, and on topic. 

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## Tez3 (Jun 6, 2010)

From the Chief Constable of Cumbria at a press conference.

http://news.scotsman.com/17651/Cumbria-shootings-We-could-do.6342394.jp


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 6, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> This government won't ban shotguns and rifles, it's the party of the landowners so it's never going to happen so wrong again I'm afraid.


 
They have already banned pump and simi-auto shotguns in U.K Tez3.

They have banned high powered rifles in the U.K. Tez3. 

Won't take that much effort to ban .22s and break open shotguns.

Arming the populace would not have stopped him? I can name several incidences here where an armed citizen did stop such a person. It's not a 100 percent guarantee but nothing is.

One thing for sure, an UNARMED populace sure cannot stop such an individual. That is a 100 percent guarantee!

Deaf


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## tellner (Jun 6, 2010)

One of the things that makes the spree killer so difficult to defend against is the lack of . If someone is breaking into your house you have a pretty good idea that whatever is tearing down the door is probably where you should be aiming. If your abusive ex shows up in spite of the restraining order a smart lady will probably figure she should keep an eye on him. If a cop has been called to a bank robbery he'd have to be comatose if he didn't consider the group of guys wearing masks and splattered by dye packets a primary threat. If two guys are having an argument about a working girl's dubious favors they've got a pretty good idea as to who is about to hit them and why.

If someone with no obvious reason to be angry with, let alone kill you stands comes up and points a shotgun at you it's going to take a moment or two for most of us to put two and two together and get something between three and five.


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## Deaf Smith (Jun 6, 2010)

tellner said:


> If someone with no obvious reason to be angry with, let alone kill you stands comes up and points a shotgun at you it's going to take a moment or two for most of us to put two and two together and get something between three and five.


 
Usually the spree killer is not killed by the very victims they are in the process of killing. It's a bystander who takes action. They see it happening and decide to do more than just cower in a corner.

Deaf


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## Senjojutsu (Jun 7, 2010)

First let me express my sincere sympathies to the loss of life and pain of this crime to the UK members.

Second a confession. I have always wanted to do a classic WWF Rowdy Roddy Piper Pipers Pit" type of interview _(YES including the coconut smash to the forehead technique)_ with many of these so called experts who ALWAYS come out of the woodwork after these types of shootings to pontificate. I should type out more about my justifications  but this story was just published today about certain peccadilloes and relationship issues that the shooter had.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3002242/Psycho-cabbies-Thai-gun-club.html

I will leave it to the British members to comment if The Sun should be considered even worthy of comment as a source on this thread.

Having unrequited love with a Thai hooker or a pending $200K tax lien  which would more likely cause me to snap???


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2010)

Senjojutsu said:


> First let me express my sincere sympathies to  the loss of life and pain of this crime to the UK members.
> 
> Second a confession. I have always wanted to do a classic WWF Rowdy  Roddy Piper &#8220;Piper&#8217;s Pit" type of interview _(YES including the  coconut smash to the forehead technique)_ with many of these so  called &#8220;experts&#8221; who ALWAYS come out of the woodwork after these types  of shootings to pontificate. I should type out more about my  justifications &#8211; but this story was just published today about certain  peccadilloes and &#8220;relationship issues&#8221; that the shooter had.
> 
> ...



The Sun, well lets just say that it's front page doesn't have world shattering news on it's front cover, it has something about a WAG breaking up with her boyfriend.

All sorts of things are coming our supposedly.
He killed the solicitor because...
a. the solicititor refused to lie to the Inland Revenue for him or
b. the solicitor messed him around during the divorce or
c. the solicitor messed him around over his mothers will.

The killer was supposed to have given loads of money to the Thai girl and couldn't pay the Inland Revenue or he had loads of money and was too tight to pay anyone.

He's supposed to have planned this for five years yet was also supposed to have been a kind gentle man.

Who knows the truth? Perhaps only the dead man.


Deaf, are you stating you think the Cumbrians are cowards for not shooting back and as you say 'cowering in a corner', bad taste that and going too far to try and prove a point the mods have already suggested staying off.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't believe that that was what DS was trying to say,Tez; as I read it, he was speaking in general terms about a response to a circumstance.

But I do concur that further perambulation away from the core topic should be curtailed. The thread has attracted attention from the staff for the wrong reasons and given the actual topic that is a very poor thing indeed to see happen.

==============================================================================================

Also, apologies for having to rebuild your post above.  I don't know if I clicked the wrong button {"Edit" instead of "Reply With Quote"} or the site had a malfunction.  Hopefully I put it back together correctly.


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## Tez3 (Jun 7, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I don't believe that that was what DS was trying to say,Tez; as I read it, he was speaking in general terms about a response to a circumstance.
> 
> But I do concur that further perambulation away from the core topic should be curtailed. The thread has attracted attention from the staff for the wrong reasons and given the actual topic that is a very poor thing indeed to see happen.
> 
> ...


 


Seems fine!

He may or may not have meant the comment to pertain to this case but by posting on this thread it came out looking that way.

If the detectives are having a hard time piecing together what happened and they know the people, the land and the towns it's not guesswork to think someone many thousands of miles away in a different country with different laws and mores cannot understand sufficently what went on and how to respond to this situation.


The Times has a reasonable report without the sleaze of The Sun.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7144697.ece


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