# Who are the up and coming Modern Arnis Players?



## Guro Harold (Dec 4, 2005)

Who do you consider the up and coming Modern Arnis players?


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## DrBarber (Dec 6, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Who do you consider the up and coming Modern Arnis players?


 
Hi Palusut,

I've noticed that 38 people have viewed your question but they have not responded.  Here is a refresher item for your consideration:

tshadowchaser wrote on 11-24-2005:
Re: "Modern Arnis: The Next Generation" 

Who do the men mentioned above consider to be the students they now have that will impact the art the most

I responded on 11-28-2005:

Hey There, Shadowchaser,

Very nice idea and twist on the thread; the students of new generation that followed and trained with the late Professor.  My choices would be:
Sifu Peter Vargas, Guro Oscar Lopez and Guro Dan Maize who learned under PG Tom Bolden and are currently members of the American Modern Arnis Associates. They all can be seen on the video clips from the AMAA site found on this forum under the video section.

From my own Independent Escrima-Kenpo Arnis Associates, I would refer people to Guro Richard Curren, Guro Tim Kashino, Guro Paul Martin and Guro Keith Roosa. Kashino and Martin can be found on the video series filmed at the Modern Arnis Symposium. I do not know of any video of Curren and Roosa at this time.
------------------------------

Sure does look like there aren't any takers in terms of responding to this question which has now been asked twice!!!!  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




It would appear that only Tom Bolden and myself are interested in promoting the art beyond ourselves.  We are actively preparing students 
to follow us as we will eventually pass from the scene. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Do you have any suggestions or other thought on your question?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 6, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Hi Palusut,
> 
> I've noticed that 38 people have viewed your question but they have not responded. Here is a refresher item for your consideration:
> 
> ...



This question was a part of the original question from the beginning....



> Who are the people listed above, what is their current contribution to Modern Arnis, and who do [you] see as the up and coming leaders in Modern Arnis?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2005)

What does it require to be seen as a player?


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## DrBarber (Dec 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> What does it require to be seen as a player?


 
In this case I would think that an instructor of Modern Arnis would make the recommendation.  

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 6, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> This question was a part of the original question from the beginning....


 
True, my good Brother, so very true, however, my good forum friend, tshadowchaser, added the extra dimensional element - the students who are truely the NEXT generation.  There will never be another 1st generation student of Professor Presas'.  The die has been case, the fates have decreed that the first generation is now the CURRENT generation.  It is the students of the first generation who truely hold the key to the future... and alas, I do detect some bleakness on the horizion... because right now Modern Arnis is going through '...boil, boil, oil, trouble and toil...'

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2005)

Kenpo went through that as well, sometimes in a very ugly manner, but the art while possibly splintered, and oft-politicized, is still going strong.


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## James Miller (Dec 6, 2005)

I think it's too soon to tell right now. I think we need another 5 years or so.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 6, 2005)

You may be correct in saying 5 more years  
It is hard for me to say because I do not know what ranks have been given out by the first generation students  nor do I know which 2nd generation students are showing that unique quality of being inventive or exceptional in their innner knowledge of techiques


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## Dan Anderson (Dec 6, 2005)

Right now is waaaaaaaay too early.  We old fellows aren't even in our graves yet.  Walkers, even.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> I think it's too soon to tell right now. I think we need another 5 years or so.


 
Hello James,

Please explain how you arrived at that number of years?  
What do you expect to see at that point in time?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> You may be correct in saying 5 more years
> It is hard for me to say because I do not know what ranks have been given out by the first generation students nor do I know which 2nd generation students are showing that unique quality of being inventive or exceptional in their innner knowledge of techiques


 
Hi TShadowchaser,

You don't know which 2nd generation students are showing those unique qualities because they have HAVE NOT been identified by any of the current instructors other than myself.  I named 7 people and gave the forum information about seeing these people via videos and video clips.
To date NO ONE ELSE has given us any indications about who the 2nd generation students are who could be expected to take on a leadership postion and move the art forward.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Right now is waaaaaaaay too early. We old fellows aren't even in our graves yet. Walkers, even.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Hi Dan, 

I disagree.  We all should be in position to make some of those distinctions right now.  Who are YOUR outstanding students?  Which of YOUR students are showing outstanding potential and/or signs of future leadership in Modern Arnis and/or related arnis arts.  This shouldn't take any rocket scientific type intellect.  Just name YOUR students, if you have any and give us a site or source where we can view this people in action.

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

How does one become "up and coming"?

From the title being bestowed upon them by someone?
By getting in the public eye (publishing, videos, schools/seminars)?
Competition?
A combination of factors?

What elevates you from just being a player to a "mover and shaker"?


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Kenpo went through that as well, sometimes in a very ugly manner, but the art while possibly splintered, and oft-politicized, is still going strong.


 
The art as a whole is still going, but strongly and with good to above average potential for continued growth is debatable and depends on who you are talking to at a given point in time.

Respectfully posted,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## arnisador (Dec 7, 2005)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Right now is waaaaaaaay too early. We old fellows aren't even in our graves yet. Walkers, even.


 
Although, some have started to suffer from receding hairlines... 

It's still the time of the first generation students, and I too feel it's much too early to begin discussing who will be the next big thing. The article mentioned previously, by Mr. O'Grady, omits people like Dr. Presas and Dr. Schea who have turned out to be fairly prominent in this generation. Several of the Masters of Tapi-Tapi started the art in the early 90s, I believe--they haven't had time to train and groom their successors yet.

I can think of two young lakans in the WMAA that have significant potential, and that I and others in the org. have commented on as possible future stars, but to mention them here when they are not making any sort of public plays for position seems inappropriate. I'd rather limit my public speculation to those who have thrown their hats into the ring.

There are first generation students of the Professor who are still fairly young who haven't really broken out yet. Many of them will be heard from in the future. The first generation needs decades more time to play out their hand. It'll be some while before we see the second generation coming to the forefront of Modern Arnis.


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

I dunno about that...the reins are always available to those who pick them up. How one goes about doing that is the question.


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## James Miller (Dec 7, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> There are first generation students of the Professor who are still fairly young who haven't really broken out yet. Many of them will be heard from in the future. The first generation needs decades more time to play out their hand. It'll be some while before we see the second generation coming to the forefront of Modern Arnis.



  Mr. Barber-

I think that the above quote explains it all. It takes time and in 5 - 10 years we may start to see a few candidates. The 1st generation just took over and is in the process of working things out. 2nd generation students as aspiring as they may be still need time and experience. The next generation must be good martial artists as well as *Leaders.* It takes time for both.


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## James Miller (Dec 7, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I dunno about that...the reins are always available to those who pick them up. How one goes about doing that is the question.


 
 So why don't you try? The big problem with some one trying to grab the reins that has had no public visibility is that they haven't earned the communities respect.


:asian:


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> Mr. Barber-
> 
> 
> 
> I think that the above quote explains it all. It takes time and in 5 - 10 years we may start to see a few candidates. The 1st generation just took over and is in the process of working things out. 2nd generation students as aspiring as they may be still need time and experience. The next generation must be good martial artists as well as Leaders. It takes time for both.




Both are pretty subjuctive terms are they not?


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> So why don't you try? The big problem with some one trying to grab the reins that has had no public visibility is that they haven't earned the communities respect.
> 
> 
> :asian:


 
When have I ever given the impression that I was a ranked player, let alone an aspiring instructor?


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## Guro Harold (Dec 7, 2005)

I think that there are some incredible arnis players out there, thus the reason for the thread. This thread isn't about who will take the lead spot but to give credit to where credit is due.

Let's focus again to naming some of these individuals so that the MA community can learn about them.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> I think that there are some incredible arnis players out there, thus the reason for the thread. This thread isn't about who will take the lead spot but to give credit to where credit is due.
> 
> Let's focus again to naming some of these individuals so that the MA community can learn about them.


 
Very well put, Palusut.  Leadership in the art is not limited to 1st or 2nd generation people, there could be 
some 3rd generation people ready or approaching being ready to step up and out.  

Then there is the matter of how large a field of influence one might wish to establish.  I see leadership as 
of function of activities and not a quanitative value of how amny people one has taught or how many 
seminars one has led or how many schools are associated with a perticular person deemed to be a leader 
by virtue of organizational title.

Leadership can be described in terms of instrumental, expressive and modular models.  It can also be a 
combination of any two or three of the above since everything can not be boiled down to an "either-or" situation.

Your question as first asked by TShadowchaser and re-affirmed by this thread which you started really does 
require that people give us their best estimates/guesses as to who will be making positive contributions to 
Modern Arnis in the near to mid-term future.  The question really does seem to lend itself to being best answered 
by instructors.  I have put forward, Sifu Peter Vargas, Guro Oscar Lopez, Guro Dan Maize, Guro Richard Curren, 
Guro Tim Kashino, Guro Paul Martin, and Guro Keith Roosa.

It would be exciting to see who else is thought of by their instructor(s) or other instructor level people, to be 
named on this thread.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> So why don't you try? The big problem with some one trying to grab the reins that has had no public visibility is that they haven't earned the communities respect.
> :asian:


 
The question is best answered by instructors and not by someone
making a self-appointment statement.  In short blowing one's own 
horn is in extremely poor taste within the context of this thread.

Do you have the name(s) of someone whom you would like to put
forward?  That would be both appropriate and appriciated since you
are the admin assistant of the WMAA President and your statement
could/would carry the weight of that leadership.

Even though Tgace is not pushing to be recognized as a future leader
of Modern Arnis, he is most certinly someone that I could accept if his
name were submitted by his instructor.  He is a talented and skilled
martial artist.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> When have I ever given the impression that I was a ranked player, let alone an aspiring instructor?


 
In this case, modesty is a good thing!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Tgace (Dec 7, 2005)

My plates full enough as it is.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> Mr. Barber-
> 
> I think that the above quote explains it all. It takes time and in 5 - 10 years we may start to see a few candidates. The 1st generation just took over and is in the process of working things out. 2nd generation students as aspiring as they may be still need time and experience. The next generation must be good martial artists as well as *Leaders.* It takes time for both.


 
I am very sorry, but I disagree with your contentions.  Given the amount of time that your WMAA leader has been teaching Modern Arnis and his own statements about having promoted some 30+ people to the Lakan level in the IMAF under the late Professor, I have a great deal of diffculty believeing that he can not identify at least one person who would be a candidate for future leadership in the art.

I was always told by the late GM, plus Sifu Don Zanghi and a number of other martial arts instructors that you can tell a great deal about an instructor by the way his/her students show the art.  When I do not see students from instructors at seminars, camps and other events where the instructor him/herself is appearing, I do admit to becoming somewhat suspect with regard to that person's teaching abilities.  Thus far, this thread has raised more questions in my mind, particuarly when I read responses such as yours as quoted above.

This thread asks a very simple question, 'who are the students that you would name as up and coming leaders in the art?'  Why would we have to wait 5 years to get some people so identified, if we have had on-going Modern Arnis instructional programs that preceeded the death of the system founder?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 7, 2005)

This thread is *mainly* about Modern Arnis Players/Arnisadors.

Please let's continue that discussion.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> I think that there are some incredible arnis players out there, thus the reason for the thread. This thread isn't about who will take the lead spot but to give credit to where credit is due.
> 
> Let's focus again to naming some of these individuals so that the MA community can learn about them.


 
In fairmess to "WMAA", I have to ask you the same question, Palusut. Why haven't you named some of those people?  
After reading your post and the following statement: 

"I think that there are some incredible arnis players out there, thus the reason for the thread. [Removed one sentence] 
Let's focus again to naming some of these individuals so that the MA community can learn about them."

I have supplied some names and I could conclude from the lack of other names being submitted, that only PG Tom Bolden 
and I are in the business of working to preserve the basics of the art, expand and innovate on the art, making it for 
ourselves and preparing our students to follow suit.  Please understand that I am not so vain as to believe that Bolden 
and I are the only instructors capable of preparing future instructors.  However and thus far the lack of names being 
submitted does cause me some concerns about what the current instructors are doing as well as what interests they 
are actually serving.

Palusut, you and TShadowchaser have asked a valid and inspired question.  The short-coming and possible failure is being 
found in the lack of affirmative responses from the forum instructors.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 7, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> This thread is *mainly* about Modern Arnis Players/Arnisadors.
> 
> Please let's continue that discussion.


 
All of the people whom I have named are Modern Arnis Instructors.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 7, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> All of the people whom I have named are Modern Arnis Instructors.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


The statement above was not directed at you, Jerome, but to clarify the purpose of the thread again. The comment also was not as a Mod but as the thread starter.


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## DrBarber (Dec 8, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> The statement above was not directed at you, Jerome, but to clarify the purpose of the thread again. The comment also was not as a Mod but as the thread starter.


 
Thank you for the clarification, Harld.  Since I am the only person to post the names of students who are up and coming Modern Arnis Instructors and Leaders, I just want to make it clear that I was only naming people who are in the Modern Arnis area of the arts.

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 8, 2005)

Here is my list:

This list does not include any MoTTs, seniors from the PI, or heads of systems because they are already at that next level and are leaders already in their own right.

IMAF(s)
Guro David Ng
Guro Roland Rivera
Guro Lyndon Johnson

IMAF (Shirshir)/FCS (Tuhon Ray)
Guro Aldon Asher

FCS (Modern Arnis is a sub-system and base for FCS)
Guro Ray Cole
Guro Rico Cortes
Guro Carlos "Pipo" Cortes
Guro Marrese Crump


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## DrBarber (Dec 8, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Here is my list:
> 
> This list does not include any MoTTs, seniors from the PI, or heads of systems because they are already at that next level and are leaders already in their own right.
> 
> ...


 
Nice listing, Harold.  Are there any sources available where we can see some if not all of these people on video or video-clips?  Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 8, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Nice listing, Harold. Are there any sources available where we can see some if not all of these people on video or video-clips? Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


Good question for anyone in listed in this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't have any video at hand.


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## DrBarber (Dec 8, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Good question for anyone in listed in this thread.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have any video at hand.


 
Hi Harold,

Having video at hand is not necessary and in most case unlikely.  If there is a site that has a video-clip or two or if there is a known video that any of the people named are on as participants, not necessarily the primary presenter is enough.  

Having an opportunity to see these folks in action is the purpose of posting video information.  Example:  I can refer people to the video clips on the "aspoonful.com" site and they will see Sifu Vargas, Guro Lopez and Guro Maize.  Guro Martin and Guro Kashino are on the Symposium DVD set.  

Seeing people in action moving and doing their versions of the art is usually very helpful and in some cases quite insightful.

Thanks for your reply,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 8, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Hi Harold,
> 
> Having video at hand is not necessary and in most case unlikely. If there is a site that has a video-clip or two or if there is a known video that any of the people named are on as participants, not necessarily the primary presenter is enough.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry, I don't have video clips off hand but some of the FCS members might be on video footage located in the video section of www.fcskali.com.

I was sharing based on personal observations only.


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## Tgace (Dec 8, 2005)

Ive got a clip of Paul doing an emptyhand form on my MSN page below. Hes critical of his performance in this example but he does it pretty smooth.


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## DrBarber (Dec 9, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ive got a clip of Paul doing an emptyhand form on my MSN page below. Hes critical of his performance in this example but he does it pretty smooth.


 
Hmmm... went there!  Checked it out!  The young man is being far too critical... he needs to lighten up because the only people 
who can see the small flaws in his performance are PG Tom Bolden, Sifu Peter Vargas, you, myself and Paul.  There are no obvious breaks in his movement, no stuttering in his footwork and the general roundness of his movements are indicative of a Chinese influenced internal martial art.  A 9.9 performance.  Gold medal.  Works for me until I see someone do it better!

A very good indication of why I have listed Paul as a next generational leader, who happens to operating along side the first generation people.  There's no need for him to stand behind anyone from the first generation!  And just in case some poeple might be wondering, Paul Martin is one of my training partners!  He does AMAA Sayaw Isa better than I do... I am a 9.0 at best!

BTW, we will teach Sayaw Isa and it's applications if people request it.

Thanks for putting that video clip up TG.  It clearly shows one way in which the AMAA approach is different from Professor's.

Respectfully yours,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## James Miller (Dec 10, 2005)

I think one must define what one perceives as a leader. Yes a local instructor is a leader in their school, but if youre talking about someone being a leader in the Modern Arnis community I feel that we must a higher standard. Maybe Jerome and Rick should define their perception of what an Up and Coming Modern Arnis Player is otherwise we are comparing apples to oranges.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 10, 2005)

Hi Everyone,

This thread is not about who are the up and coming leaders of Modern Arnis.

An alternative title for this thread could be, "Who have you seen who is damn good with a stick?"

-Palusut


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## Cthulhu (Dec 11, 2005)

Why you gotta diss Andy Zavalla?  

Cthulhu




			
				Palusut said:
			
		

> Here is my list:
> 
> This list does not include any MoTTs, seniors from the PI, or heads of systems because they are already at that next level and are leaders already in their own right.
> 
> ...


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## Guro Harold (Dec 11, 2005)

Who is dissing Andy?

Add him!!! Talk about him, you are one of his students!


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## DrBarber (Dec 12, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> This thread is not about who are the up and coming leaders of Modern Arnis.
> 
> ...


 
Now I am really confused!  The title of the thread reads "Who are the up and coming Modern Arnis Players?".  Please help me out.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## DrBarber (Dec 12, 2005)

WMAA said:
			
		

> I think one must define what one perceives as a leader. Yes a local instructor is a leader in their school, but if youre talking about someone being a leader in the Modern Arnis community I feel that we must a higher standard. Maybe Jerome and Rick should define their perception of what an Up and Coming Modern Arnis Player is otherwise we are comparing apples to oranges.


 
This really isn't a hard thing to understand, if you seperate the quanatative from the qualitative measure.  A leader, in the context that you have mentioned, does not have to operate a school nor does a leader have to be an instructor.  Those things deal with organizations, titles and numbers.  Leadership is functional.  It is involves doing something that affects others, it is about style(s) of getting others to react.

I believe that "up and coming" is Palusut's phrase.  On the other hand it is generally used to refer to people or things that will be prominent at some point in the future (exact time not clearly determined).  From my general perspective the problem with your statement is that you want to cloud the issue since I and several others have done something that you have not - we have posted the names of some people who we believe are working toward being future leaders in Modern Arnis.  The idea is quite simple and straight forward - who do you believe can and will make significant contributions to the art of Modern Arnis at some point(s) in the future?  

Your apples and oranges gambit is a dodge to cover up the fact that you have not named anyone on this thread.  If you really want a "leadership" discussion, start a new thread and state what you believe the criteria of leadership to be.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Guro Harold (Dec 12, 2005)

Well, I couldn't use the title, "Up and Coming Arnisadors", that title is taken on MT!!!


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## arnisador (Dec 12, 2005)

Like Tigger before me, I'm the only one!


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## arnisandyz (Dec 12, 2005)

It really depends on you definition of an "Arnis Player." To me, this would indicate a fighting skill. If you say be careful of him, he is a good arnis player, it would mean he can fight and demostrate skill. Not that he has a set of videos out.

Unfortunately in this day and age of sue-and-be-sued and modern culture, there is really no way for the younger fighters to test themselves. Many people higher up the ladder are hesitant to put thier reputation on the line. My deepest respect goes to the established players who are willing to play with anybody regardless of the outcome. There is much to learn by being on the recieving end of a seniors stick!

+ humble myself (I would rather not be on the "list") I prefer flying under the radar and being relatively unknown in the Modern Arnis Political World! However, I will support and help anybody in the Arnis and Filipino community who asks. I do personally know all the people on Palusut's list and they do deserve mention. Harold, you need to add yourself to that list!

Of all the people on Pulusut's list, I would have to say Roland does NOT deserve to be on there! Roland should NOT be considered an up-and-comer, but an ESTABLISHED Modern Arnis player. He is probably one of the purest representations of Modern Arnis that I have had the opportunity to train with. But thats just my opinion!


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## dearnis.com (Dec 25, 2005)

I would add that Roland and David are 1st gen., not second or third.  (maybe not the only ones on that list , I don't know the others first hand.)

I suspect you will see a lot of potential 'up and comers' drawn off to other related arts simply due to the politics currently associated with modern arnis.


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