# Terrorism



## FieldDiscipline (Mar 8, 2009)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5867499.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7930837.stm


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2009)

I heard this on the news in the early hours of this morning. 

I cannot believe that there are still those in Northen Ireland who continue to believe that there is anything to be gained from such attacks.

The only people who will suffer as a consequence of this terrorist act are those normal residents who will have to endure tighter security.

As with much use of a violence, a pointless waste of human life on an altar of political futility .


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

As long the British keep invading Ireland. There will always be blood shed for the freedom of Irish people everywhere.

You would do well to remember the British were the terrorists during the American Revolutionary War.

We won our hard earned freedom from the British terrorists who executed our Founding Father's children.

The Founding Father's sons were killed execution style and their daughters were raped in their colonial or log cabin homes. 

Do I agree with the Irish methods of bombing campaigns and motorcycle drive by shootings etc. ? No.

but I do wish for the Irish people to be reunited with their land in the north to the south and to live in peace from British tyranny.

If the British were to try and invade America in the 21st Century. You can be one hundred percent sure Americans everywhere would raise hell and make life extremely difficult for the British until they flee with their curled coattails back to England.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2009)

Posting here with a Moderator shaped hat on, that was not, strictly speaking, relevant to point of the thread, *SF*.  Further, such incendury phrasing as noted above is hardly appropriate.

The core trigger for what we term "The Troubles" was indeed down to a decison made centuries ago.  However, whilst forgetting history is a bad thing, allowing it to dominate such that things can never be resolved is likewise a poor choice.

I wont debate here the accuracy of what was posted as historical 'declarations'.


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> As long the British keep invading Ireland. There will always be blood shed for the freedom of Irish people everywhere.
> 
> You would do well to remember the British were the terrorists during the American Revolutionary War.
> 
> ...


 

*OH NO! DON'T EVEN GO THERE STRONG FIGHTER ESPECIALLY TO FIELD DISCPLINE AND I! *
*YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.*

This is not up for discussion as far as I'm concerned, both from a work point of view and a personal one. I have spent most of my life fighting NI terrorists and be damned sure thats what they are, they are the scum of the earth, if you think they are freedom fighters you are very sadly mistaken.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> *OH NO! DON'T EVEN GO THERE STRONG FIGHTER ESPECIALLY TO FIELD DISCPLINE AND I! *
> *YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.*
> 
> This is not up for discussion as far as I'm concerned, both from a work point of view and a personal one. I have spent most of my life fighting NI terrorists and be damned sure thats what they are, they are the scum of the earth, if you think they are freedom fighters you are very sadly mistaken.


 
Whose land is it ? It is Ireland's land. Not the British. The British have always been a corrupt people, terrorists and land grabbers. 

So you are calling the American revolutionary fighters the terrorists and the British are the good guys ? :barf:

Please do not insult my intelligence. 

You should thank God the Irish are fighting for their freedom as this is their RIGHT !!! Ireland will always be Ireland.

Tez, If Israel was invaded by say Russia in a land grab. Are you going to call the Israelis the bad guys and the Russians the good guys ?


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## theletch1 (Mar 8, 2009)

[playnice] Jeff Letchford [/playnice]


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> As long the British keep invading Ireland. There will always be blood shed for the freedom of Irish people everywhere.



"Keep Invading"?  When was the last British invasion of Ireland?



> You would do well to remember the British were the terrorists during the American Revolutionary War.



No, George Washington, Nathan Green, etc, were the traitors to the Crown, who hid behind trees and rocks while the British followed accepted rules of war of the day, and lined up in good order.



> We won our hard earned freedom from the British terrorists who executed our Founding Father's children.



The 13 colonies were each granted their independence from the nation of Britain under King George III, creating 13 new countries, at the Treaty of Paris in 1783. 

This claim of executions however, smells trollish.



> The Founding Father's sons were killed execution style and their daughters were raped in their colonial or log cabin homes.



Citation please.



> If the British were to try and invade America in the 21st Century. You can be one hundred percent sure Americans everywhere would raise hell and make life extremely difficult for the British until they flee with their curled coattails back to England.



Well, our Chinese owners do have a larger army than the British do. It's doubtful however if they'll commit troops to protect their ownership % in Amerika today or if they'll look to our other owners, the Saudi's to ante up troops. 

I think the Britain of today is beyond it's Empire building days.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

> *What Happened To Our Founding Fathters ?*
> 
> 
> Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?
> ...


 
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT]http://www.keelynet.com/4th99.htm


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Whose land is it ? It is Ireland's land. Not the British. The British have always been a corrupt people, terrorists and land grabbers.


 
Really? Truly you have a dizzying intellect.



> So you are calling the American revolutionary fighters the terrorists and the British are the good guys ? :barf:


Actually, if you know anything about history, at the time, that is how it was.  Kaith's pointed that out though. 



> Please do not insult my intelligence.


 
Aren't you the same guy who said women couldn't fight, then looked rather stupid when ol' Kaith there pointed out just how wrong your archaic attitudes towards women was?



> You should thank God the Irish are fighting for their freedom as this is their RIGHT !!! Ireland will always be Ireland.


No, Irish terrorists are doing the same things Islamic terrrists do. Only it's the dumb asses who applaud one, and condem the other, when both are wrong.

[quoteTez, If Israel was invaded by say Russia in a land grab. Are you going to call the Israelis the bad guys and the Russians the good guys ?[/quote]

You're comparisn is flawed. If Israel was invaded by Syria would be a better one. As to who was the bad guys, it depends on who you ask.  According to a large number of Iraqi's, the US is the bad guy. Seems the country was a lot stabler and safer under the late Saddamn, than any recent regieme. 



*IV*


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

I see no reports of execution, nor rape there O'Master Historian.


*IV*


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 8, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> I see no reports of execution, nor rape there O'Master Historian.
> 
> 
> *IV*


That is because the grasp of history here is as strong as the grasp of femininity and it's valour.



*IV*


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Mar 8, 2009)

FieldDiscipline said:


> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5867499.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7930837.stm





> Two soldiers killed in an audacious attack on Army barracks in Ulster yesterday were shot execution-style as they lay injured on the ground, police said today.


 
My heartfelt sympathies to the family of the murdered soldiers. 

It's one thing to fight and die in battle, but to be killed by cowards this way, I have nothing but contempt for their murderers.


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## The Master (Mar 8, 2009)

Anyone who applauds the cowardly acts of men such as those who performed these heinous actions, is in my mind, little more than a reprehensible Curr himself, and worthy of nothing more than scorn and public mocking. A mind so sick, and an intellect so debauched, deserves nothing else.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> "Keep Invading"? When was the last British invasion of Ireland?
> 
> The British are still invading Ireland today. Why does Britain not sign papers and give up Ireland because the land rightfully belongs to the Irish people.
> 
> ...


 
The word, Amerika is actually a communist and socialist term. 

Have you been listening to communist propaganda about Americans ? If you are an American then you have been listening to the liberal media's lies for too long.

George Washington had more balls and HE WAS A MAN more than you ever will be and if you had one drop of red blooded American male in you then you would know this statement of George Washington, Our First President hiding behind trees is FALSE. 

George Washington's troops waged a very unconventional war against the British who were still rooted in fairness while being butchers at the same time. Washington's troops shot the enemy whenever they were using proper cover and concealment.

Americans should be supporting Ireland and not Britian in the 20th and 21st Century.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> The word, Amerika is actually a communist and socialist term.



Yes it is, and Amerika is no longer the America that men like Jefferson and Washington created.



> Have you been listening to communist propaganda about Americans ? If you are an American then you have been listening to the liberal media's lies for too long.



If you bothered to read my posts here the last 8 years, you'd know exactly where I stand on this nation. It's apparent you haven't.



> George Washington had more balls and HE WAS A MAN more than you ever will be and if you had one drop of red blooded American male in you then you would know this statement of George Washington, Our First President hiding behind trees is FALSE.



As false as your claims concerning women warriors were. 



> George Washington's troops waged a very unconventional war against the British who were still rooted in fairness while being butchers at the same time. Washington's troops shot the enemy whenever they were using proper cover and concealment.


According to the rules of engagement in play at the time, the American rebels were terrorists.




> Americans should be supporting Ireland and not Britian in the 20th and 21st Century.



American's should be supporting peace, not terrorists, period.


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2009)

The Americans are supporting Northern Ireland by being committed to the Peace process.
Strong fighter, do you realise that Northern Ireland has it's own government and N Ireland is devolved from Britain?
http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2009)

The Master said:


> Anyone who applauds the cowardly acts of men such as those who performed these heinous actions, is in my mind, little more than a reprehensible Curr himself, and worthy of nothing more than scorn and public mocking. A mind so sick, and an intellect so debauched, deserves nothing else.


I agree. Anyone who professes support for these scum, is little more than the same, to me. I hope they are found, and punished quickly.


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## The Master (Mar 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The Americans are supporting Northern Ireland by being committed to the Peace process.
> Strong fighter, do you realise that Northern Ireland has it's own government and N Ireland is devolved from Britain?
> http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/


My dear lady, I strongly suspect that factual discourse is not this cad's intent here but to continue to foster a state of disruption.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> Really? Truly you have a dizzying intellect.
> 
> 
> Actually, if you know anything about history, at the time, that is how it was. Kaith's pointed that out though.
> ...


 
You're comparisn is flawed. If Israel was invaded by Syria would be a better one. As to who was the bad guys, it depends on who you ask. According to a large number of Iraqi's, the US is the bad guy. Seems the country was a lot stabler and safer under the late Saddamn, than any recent regieme. 

*IV*[/quote]

Before God declared the land to be Israel's. Whose land was it originally ? Lebanon Syria and Jordan and Palestine's land. (*Canaan*)


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

The Master said:


> My dear lady, I strongly suspect that factual discourse is not this cad's intent here but to continue to foster a state of disruption.


 
No, It is to set the facts straight on Ireland. I know because I have friends who live in Ireland or are from Ireland living in America or Irish friends who hear news from their Irish relatives in Ireland. 

I would like to visit Ireland one day and see what crimes the British are committing against the Irish people, just like the British committed crimes against Americans during the Revolutionary War and visit the Guinness Brewery. The Irish are great people and deserve our respect and support.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

If America's Founding Fathers were so noble, so great, why did "As many as 100,000 people who supported British rule (almost 1 in 30 of the people in the original thirteen states) chose to leave the newly formed U.S. for England, Canada and the West Indies. "?

The Revolution was only supported by about a 3rd of the population, with another 3rd loyal, and the rest indifferent. Loyal American's like Arnold were treated like crap by their fellow rebels, but it's Arnold the arch traitor.  Such is history, written by the victors.

But this is a distraction caused by this Troll, to obscure the real issue here, the cowardly attempt at mass murder of British soldiers, whose only crime here was ordering pizza.  I suppose WeakFlailer will also applaud the attempts to kill the 2 pizza delivery men, and considers the execution of wounded to be a worthy act as well.

Such are the thinkings of the sick, the morally bankrupt, the degenerate swine, no more a true warrior than a goldfish is a shark.


*IV*


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## Tez3 (Mar 8, 2009)

Master, you are correct. Ladies and gentleman I'm sure you'll see where I'm coming from here and I beg your indulgence and forgiveness in advance.

Strong Fighter, go to hell.


My last word other than my thoughts and prayers are with the soldiers families. My thoughts to Field Discipline too, I know how much this hurts.:asian:


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> The Americans are supporting Northern Ireland by being committed to the Peace process.
> Strong fighter, do you realise that Northern Ireland has it's own government and N Ireland is devolved from Britain?
> http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/


 
What did I just say ? Ireland wants to be Ireland with no oppression from British tyranny. You just proved my point for me.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> You're comparisn is flawed. If Israel was invaded by Syria would be a better one. As to who was the bad guys, it depends on who you ask. According to a large number of Iraqi's, the US is the bad guy. Seems the country was a lot stabler and safer under the late Saddamn, than any recent regieme.
> 
> *IV*


 
Before God declared the land to be Israel's. Whose land was it originally ? Lebanon Syria and Jordan and Palestine's land. (*Canaan*)[/QUOTE]
You are wrong, so very wrong, and I have better things to do than to debate with dimwits. You strike me as someone who is afraid of women, who's masculinity is as fragile as your grasp on history, who has a romantic fantasy about war, about Ireland, who sees "brave freedom fighters challenging tyranny", yet is ignorant or purposefully oblivious to their drug running, gambling, prostitution, and other debase debaucheries.

Enjoy your fantasy world.



*IV*


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> What did I just say ? Ireland wants to be Ireland with no oppression from British tyranny. You just proved my point for me.


Do you even read these links?  No, didn't think so.  Kaith showed you to be a pretty oblivious type a few times already. You might want to shut up before you remove all doubt you're a troll.

Oh, too late.


*IV*


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## Sukerkin (Mar 8, 2009)

You really are a silly man, *SF*; or a deliberately disruptive one. Each post you make is showing a very tenuous grasp of the actual history of the countries in question, including your own.

Your "starter for 10" (not that you'll have any clue what that means (it's from a British quiz programme called University Challenge)):

Primarily, which nation colonised the large area of land now referred to as North America?

EDIT:  I'd ideally like to just delete this, as a post born of revulsion that added nothing positive to the thread.  That would leave the matter to fade in the way that such things should.  I'll leave it here tho' as the actual point I was trying to make is that the chains of historical causality bind us all a lot closer together than many recall.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> No, It is to set the facts straight on Ireland. I know because I have friends who live in Ireland or are from Ireland living in America or Irish friends who hear news from their Irish relatives in Ireland.
> 
> I would like to visit Ireland one day and see what crimes the British are committing against the Irish people, just like the British committed crimes against Americans during the Revolutionary War and visit the Guinness Brewery. The Irish are great people and deserve our respect and support.


So, no first hand knowledge. Just heresay.


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## Hagakure (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> The word, Amerika is actually a communist and socialist term.
> 
> Have you been listening to communist propaganda about Americans ? If you are an American then you have been listening to the liberal media's lies for too long.
> 
> ...




Hmmm.... Perhaps with nearly 2 million Muslims in the UK, we should be supporting them? By your logic I guess we should? 

My folks are Irish, and deplore this. Their opinion is that "the North" is too expensive a piece of land to want back. Their view of "the RA" is that they're not "freedom fighters" but criminals who use extortion rackets, drugs and prostitution to fund illegal arms supplies. What was once about fighting a sovereign state that had invaded, (that's not in dispute by the way, but I'm sure not responsible for the sins of my fathers!) is now undeniably about control and possession of territorial areas. All of them, all groups on both loyalist and republican sides are little more than criminal underworld gangs. I've spent a good while in Northern Ireland, on pleasure, not business and have spoken to many, many people. You come across as an ignorant wannabe who's watched Michael Collins, far, far too many times. Your views make me sick.

Sorry, I've read more, you're... American, with the whole "My great, great, great, great Grandmothers Alsation was Irish, so *I'm* Irish by default"? You have no idea how many people from "the old countries" that makes cringe. Stay in the US, we don't want your kind coming over.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> *What Happened To Our Founding Fathters ?*
> 
> 
> Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?
> ...


 
A great deal of this is not true. Even more of it is stretching the truth, or in error. Some of it is true. I won't bother going throgh point by point, it's already been done:

http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

I'm trying to show some restraint.......


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2009)

Personally, I just don't understand.  Why are Republican Irish still fighting?  Is the ideology that they cling to so strong that they'll murder in cold blood?  Or has this conflict evolved into something different?  Someone mentioned that the RI is basically criminal gang now.  When did that happen?  How?  Is there any sympathy in NI for acts like this?  Or are the majority of people against it?  I'm looking for the rest of the story and not quite sure where to go?


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## Hagakure (Mar 8, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Personally, I just don't understand.  Why are Republican Irish still fighting?  Is the ideology that they cling to so strong that they'll murder in cold blood?  Or has this conflict evolved into something different?  Someone mentioned that the RI is basically criminal gang now.  When did that happen?  How?  Is there any sympathy in NI for acts like this?  Or are the majority of people against it?  I'm looking for the rest of the story and not quite sure where to go?



Technically it's not JUST the Republicans fighting. The Loyalists, or the Protestant community wish to remain part of the union with Britain. So it's not just as simple as pulling all "Britishness" out of NI, that's grossly simplistic and perpetuated with those who have little real knowledge of the Troubles. However, the attacks against British forces will have been by the Republicans. And likely because Gordon "I'm Scottish" Brown and his govt had threatened to send the SAS back into NI after a hiatus of some years. This seems like a warning, but if it is, it's an immensely stupid one. What's MORE likely to get the SAS back there is an event like this.  

It's been a criminal thing for many years, sure there may be _some_ guys who think they're fighting the Crown etc, but the majority of guys are in it for the infamy and "respect" they get, money, power, fear etc etc. It's prevalent in parts of Belfast and other larger communities. Many of the smaller and more rural areas couldn't care less either way. Ultimately, they pay their taxes to someone, and just want to live their lives in peace, I've spoken to hundreds directly, my parents, family, not random tourists like some may have, and NO ONE supports this besides a hardcore few. On either side. Those that actively support the taking of life for this are in my view, scum, sub-human, and as bad as those Muslims who rejoiced when 911 happened.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

If the British empire never attacked and invaded Ireland and violated Irish sovereignty then none of this would have happened.

You have to remember that war is being fought by British proxy and the Irish people are being used against their own people by the English for the British empire's purposes.

I would love to see Ireland come back together in the north and south and the U.K.'s entire armed forces to leave the whole land of Ireland then finally there can be peace while the Irish people rebuild a national life of peace for themselves.

I also want to point out that I do not glorify the killings on BOTH sides and I really sincerely wish there was peace. 

For any of that to happen, The British needs to leave first.


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> No, It is to set the facts straight on Ireland. I know because I have friends who live in Ireland or are from Ireland living in America or Irish friends who hear news from their Irish relatives in Ireland.



I have Irish friends, soldiers as it happens, who say they don't know all the facts.  Congratulations on becoming such an expert.  You know of course that troops were initially sent to NI to _protect _the catholics?

maunakumu, Hagakure's got it about right.  For these people its unlikely to be about republicanism.

I will leave this now, to people in a better position to deal with trolls.  Hope you can sleep.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation, Hagakure.  I must admit my ignorance of the matter.  All I know of the conflict is that it was once religious based and that the IRA has resorted to terrorism in the past.  I don't know any of the details of the conflict or incidents that have happened.  

One thing that I have not understood is why the British are so intent on keeping Northern Ireland.  I don't understand the politics involved, so if anyone could explain that, I'd appreciate it.

Also, how common is IRA terrorism?  On the other side of the world, we don't seem to hear about it very often.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

elder999 said:


> A great deal of this is not true. Even more of it is stretching the truth, or in error. Some of it is true. I won't bother going throgh point by point, it's already been done:
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp
> 
> I'm trying to show some restraint.......


 
Keep in mind that snopes.com is a smokescreen for liberal lies made to look like facts. I would not trust snopes.com and it reeks of Anti-Americanism.

It is better to ask the descendants who are related to the Founding Fathers what really happened to their families. 

I think the true story would be quite different than what is said of snopes.com


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Hmmm.... Perhaps with nearly 2 million Muslims in the UK, we should be supporting them? By your logic I guess we should?
> 
> My folks are Irish, and deplore this. Their opinion is that "the North" is too expensive a piece of land to want back. Their view of "the RA" is that they're not "freedom fighters" but criminals who use extortion rackets, drugs and prostitution to fund illegal arms supplies. What was once about fighting a sovereign state that had invaded, (that's not in dispute by the way, but I'm sure not responsible for the sins of my fathers!) is now undeniably about control and possession of territorial areas. All of them, all groups on both loyalist and republican sides are little more than criminal underworld gangs. I've spent a good while in Northern Ireland, on pleasure, not business and have spoken to many, many people. You come across as an ignorant wannabe who's watched Michael Collins, far, far too many times. Your views make me sick.
> 
> Sorry, I've read more, you're... American, with the whole "My great, great, great, great Grandmothers Alsation was Irish, so *I'm* Irish by default"? You have no idea how many people from "the old countries" that makes cringe. Stay in the US, we don't want your kind coming over.


 
I am not Irish and how do you explain that Irish friends & relatives and those who are living in Ireland tell a different story ?

Many Irish people are fed disinformation because of the British empire trying to control the Irish people for the British empire's interests. 

The British never had Ireland's best interests in mind. It is all for British's interests and that is very telling.


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## searcher (Mar 8, 2009)

Can't we all just get along?



Or settle this like men.........................with a thumb wrestling match?


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## Hagakure (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I am not Irish and how do you explain that Irish friends & relatives and those who are living in Ireland tell a different story ?
> 
> Many Irish people are fed disinformation because of the British empire trying to control the Irish people for the British empire's interests.
> 
> The British never had Ireland's best interests in mind. It is all for British's interests and that is very telling.



Because they're the hardcore handful. It's nothing to do with being fed misinformation. It's to do with wanting no more bloodshed, because whatever the "historical" reasons for it, butchering each other solves nothing. The people in the South, and the North are well aware of their history and relations with Britain, and don't need some American-Irish wannabe who's spoken to a few malcontents and passes it off as gospel. 

Britain never had any countries interest at heart, Ireland or otherwise it was an Empire, one that was entirely ambivalent at worst towards its colonies. Now, while to some extent I agree, I'd like to see a unified Republic of Ireland with the 6 counties of the North returned, however, _celebrating _this latest shooting shows crassness and lack of humanity on a grand scale. The political process in NI while tenuous at best, given time will work. In many ways, this shooting has just set this process back, because now, the SAS are ever so likely to return, which spells very bad news indeed for the groups over there. 

My parentage is Irish, my name, is Irish, my bloodline, is, Irish, I'm well aware of _my_ history, prior to the Plantation workers arrival and from the Boyne onwards in 1690, and I tell you, the one thing that isn't needed to calm the situation down and to resolve the issue peacefully and politically, is sabre rattling and guns.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Keep in mind that snopes.com is a smokescreen for liberal lies made to look like facts. I would not trust snopes.com and it reeks of Anti-Americanism.
> 
> It is better to ask the descendants who are related to the Founding Fathers what really happened to their families.
> 
> I think the true story would be quite different than what is said of snopes.com


 
_Must....hold *back*......*snark* of death...._ :lfao:


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## Hagakure (Mar 8, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Hagakure.  I must admit my ignorance of the matter.  All I know of the conflict is that it was once religious based and that the IRA has resorted to terrorism in the past.  I don't know any of the details of the conflict or incidents that have happened.
> 
> One thing that I have not understood is why the British are so intent on keeping Northern Ireland.  I don't understand the politics involved, so if anyone could explain that, I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Also, how common is IRA terrorism?  On the other side of the world, we don't seem to hear about it very often.



It's nothing to do with the "British being so intent on keeping NI". The situation is far, far more complex than that. More than half of the population are listed as Protestant, their traditional loyalty is to the Crown and "Britain". In the late 1960s, the Protestants (the guys loyal to Britain) were attacking Catholic communities with increased regularity, it was actually the Catholics who requested assistance from the British government. This move was welcomed at first, but as with the Americans in Iraq, what is initially welcomed as a liberator and peacemaker, were later resented for being seen as an occupying force. By then, the Troubles were well and truly under way, and both sides were merrily knocking seven bells out of each other, and the then RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary) the Police in other words, were totally and utterly unable to seperate and protect either side. In fairness their "Royal" monniker led to the Catholic side complaining of their bias, and I can completely agree with that. 

However, the British armed forces were called in to provide support, or the province would've descended into anarchy. Have the British overstayed their welcome? Ain't for me to decide. What's in it for Britain to hold onto? Besides the likes of Harland and Woolfe shipyard in Belfast, absolutely sod all. In fact, there is an increasing movement within England to break up the Union, which many English in particular, would welcome.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 8, 2009)

You have a delusional fantasy warrior, getting his jollies while spreading disinformation, falsehoods and flat out bull dung. 

I smell something, smell like,


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> No, It is to set the facts straight on Ireland. I know because I have friends who live in Ireland or are from Ireland living in America or Irish friends who hear news from their Irish relatives in Ireland.


 
That sounds sort of _Bushy_.

Now, try to say, "Nuc U Lar"


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## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

actually, snopes has been widely critiqued for a liberal bias for years


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> actually, snopes has been widely critiqued for a liberal bias for years





_Well, yeah I got that email too._ :lfao:


(Actually, since the original "chain email" is about the Founders, its contents are a matter of _history_ and *fact*. One can do their own research, and determine that what snopes.com has posted on the subject _*is simply truthful and unbiased*_- factual content.)

Of course, one should feel free to _believe_ what they want: that Lewis Morris, whose house was near the place in New York where I grew up, had his home taken over as a barracks for the British, _rather than for the Continental Army_, that John Hart's wife died after her "husband fled her bedside," _rather than a month before the British overran New Jersey_, and that a flying saucer crashed in Roswell, JFK was killed by a lone gunman, the CIA never conducted mind control experiments on unsuspecting U.S. citizens, etc., etc., etc....:lfao:


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## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

*ADMIN NOTE*

*****ATTENTION ALL USERS*****

*This thread has generated a number of problem posts, that are currently being reviewed by the forum staff.  A mod note was already posted in this thread, but it seems to have been ignored.  Consider this the FINAL warning.  Please take note of the rules for this section.  *

*Keep the discussion on a civil note and avoid the personal shots and rude posts. *

*Mike Slosek*
*MT Asst. Admin*


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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Sein Fein ( the political wing of the IRA) statement on the shooting.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5868363.ece

"Last night's attack was an attack on the peace process. It was wrong and counter productive. 
"Those responsible have no support, no strategy to achieve a United Ireland. Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets. They want to destroy the progress of recent times and to plunge Ireland back into conflict. 
"Irish republicans and democrats have a duty to oppose this and to defend the peace process. Sinn Fein has a strategy to bring about an end to British rule in our country by peaceful and democratic means. 
"There should be an end to actions like the one in Antrim last night. The popular will is for peaceful and democratic change
"Sinn Fein has a responsibility to be consistent. The logic of this is that we support the police in the apprehension of those involved in last night's attack. 
"The police also have a responsibility to give leadership and to behave at all times in a transparent and accountable manner. The British Government has a duty to uphold the new political arrangement and the peace process. 
"I particularly want to appeal to republicans once again for calm, thoughtful and decisive leadership. 
"The peace process was built against the odds and not least because of the willingness of republicans to take risks and to be strategic and long sighted. 
"There are elements within Unionism and within the British system who do not want the peace process to achieve its objectives. Our responsibility is to defend the peace process and the progress that has been made to achieving national and democratic rights. 
"We will not be deflected from our republican and democratic objectives." 


Whatever people's views on Irish history the truth is that the only way forward for peaceful co-existance is to sit round the table and talk. This has been happening and Northern Ireland has been moving forward into better and more peaceful times. There are people who don't want to see peace, those who glorify killing, those who have criminal interests and those who want power of life and death over their fellow citizens by ruling with the gun. 
This lastest attack was cowardly, craven and wicked. the murderers will be hunted down and brought to justice. However not only will the police be looking for them, the Provos will too, for the criminals the police is the better option, the IRA will not be crossed. 

The IRAs views will rankle with many as the truce as always is fragile but they have expressed their willingness and their support for the peace process. 

One of the pizza delivery men btw is a Polish national and is in critical condition.

I'm not going to dignify Strong Fighters PM to me by answering his accusations against Britain and myself, Northern Ireland is a complicated situation and has been since the 13th century. Henry the Eighth had problems there as has Cromwell and every government since. Giving Northern Ireland back to the south would be only a part solution, for one thing the south doesn't really want it and the majority of the people in the north being Protestant don't want to go so it leaves a problem. The answer of course is simple everyone lives in peace....

There are few British army troops in N Ireland, the soldiers killed were on their last night there as they were deployed to Afghanistan this week. they were _Royal Engineers_ based at the camp not deployed on security duties in Belfast. 

Over the years I've heard many twisted justifications for the murder of innocents given by terrorists and by the apologists for the terrorists. Irish history is full of darkness but there is light now and by good people standing firm the peace process will stand. There is hope still.






A vigil was held for the soldiers by the local people from all the community, *Catholics and Protestants alike*. Everyone interviewed said that peace must continue, the price paid by so many is too dear for us to give up now.

The American State Department offered it's condolences to the families of the soldiers, something I know that is appreciated.


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## CoryKS (Mar 9, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I would like to visit Ireland one day and see what crimes the British are committing against the Irish people, just like the British committed crimes against Americans during the Revolutionary War and visit the Guinness Brewery.


 
"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!  And try the beer!"


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 9, 2009)

I hate to see things like this happen...no matter what political agenda is behind it.  IMO, actions like this are inexcusable.

I pray for the families of the fallen.


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## Tez3 (Mar 9, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> "Come and see the violence inherent in the system! And try the beer!"


 
He'd find the pubs full of British tourists lol, the Irish Tourist Board runs big advertising campaign here. it's a favourite holiday destination as the Irish are very welcoming.
On a serious point I would recommend both the North and the South for a visit, the countryside is beautiful and the people are friendly and as I said welcoming to all.

There's been rights and wrongs on all sides over the centuries, we could fill pages and pages here on the incidents and wrongdoings of *ALL* but at some point while not forgetting history we have to draw a line and say enough, put that history to one side and say from now on we live together in peace. 

I did say here on MT some while back, I believe on one of the interminable gun threads that involve the UK, that NI was still an issue for violence, I'm sorry that it's been shown to be true in this way. there's always been incidents, some known to the public, others not, that the violence and sectarian hatred is there bubbling under the surface still. All those centuries of violence are a hard thing to put behind you but people are trying, the circle of violence, the tit for tat among the Catholics and Protestants is lessening, the circle will be broken. 

Strong Fighters assertion that the Brits are holding onto the Province against their will is far from true, the majority of people there being protestants want to stay in the UK, if Ireland were united we'd have another war as they raised a cry for freedom. I remember the British soldiers being stoned by the Protestants as they escorted Catholic children to their schools to enable their safety. The sight of little children cringing as the stones flew past them remains in the memory. You have to remember that things are never what they seem in Northern Ireland. 

I along with others, have lost many friends and colleagues in Northern Ireland, in my case too I lost a fiance. I know there are those who glory in those deaths, to see that in print here is upsetting for more than myself. I didn't know the lads who were killed on Saturday, they were however stationed just down the road from me not so long ago and were part of my 'beat'. 






Sappers Patrick Azimkar (left) and Mark Quinsey

Killed by cowards. RIP


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## CoryKS (Mar 9, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> He'd find the pubs full of British tourists lol, the Irish Tourist Board runs big advertising campaign here. it's a favourite holiday destination as the Irish are very welcoming.
> On a serious point I would recommend both the North and the South for a visit, the countryside is beautiful and the people are friendly and as I said welcoming to all.


 
That's a trip my wife and I have been dreaming about for years.  Someday...



Tez3 said:


> There's been rights and wrongs on all sides over the centuries, we could fill pages and pages here on the incidents and wrongdoings of *ALL* but at some point while not forgetting history we have to draw a line and say enough, put that history to one side and say from now on we live together in peace.


 
There's a similarity to what we see in the Middle East, in that the situation gets complicated by the amount of time that has gone by.  After a while, it's no longer "This is our land, that over there is your land, now go."  Now it's "My children have been born and raised here, this is the only home they've ever known."  It's further complicated when the "enemy" is your fellow countrymen rather than a foreign entity.  At some point you have to stop looking at how things used to be and accept the reality.  These murderers can't seriously believe that they'll get what they want from this?!



Tez3 said:


> I along with others, have lost many friends and colleagues in Northern Ireland, in my case too I lost a fiance. I know there are those who glory in those deaths, to see that in print here is upsetting for more than myself. I didn't know the lads who were killed on Saturday, they were however stationed just down the road from me not so long ago and were part of my 'beat'.
> 
> Sappers Patrick Azimkar (left) and Mark Quinsey
> 
> Killed by cowards. RIP


 
:asian:


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## Flea (Mar 9, 2009)

I wanted to thank Hakagure and others for their enlightening explanation on the political situation in that region.  It's something I've never really understood.  It's a shame that this thread has become so shrill, but refreshing to see that the sniping isn't about the politics _itself,_ but about ignorance concerning the situation.  (Does that make sense?)

Anyway, I'd encourage everyone to take a deep breath and head down to the nearest pub.  Who's with me?


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## Hagakure (Mar 9, 2009)

Flea said:


> I wanted to thank Hakagure and others for their enlightening explanation on the political situation in that region. It's something I've never really understood. It's a shame that this thread has become so shrill, but refreshing to see that the sniping isn't about the politics _itself,_ but about ignorance concerning the situation. (Does that make sense?)
> 
> Anyway, I'd encourage everyone to take a deep breath and head down to the nearest pub. Who's with me?


 

Shoot yeah, I could use a beer. Been one of those lifetimes.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2009)

A police officer has been shot down in the street now as Craigavon.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

To the person who thinks the British soldiers are there to commit atrocities against the Irish people I'd like you to know that a British soldier threw himself onto the body of one of the injured pizza delivery men and took the bullets meant for him.
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article...IRA_attack&in_article_id=573338&in_page_id=34


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 10, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933409.stm


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## searcher (Mar 10, 2009)

You know, no matter who is doing it and for whatever reason, terrorism is a cowardly way of fighting.    My heart and prayers go out to the families of the murdered soldiers.   I hope that some day the world will wake up and see that these people need to be brought down.


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## Tez3 (Mar 10, 2009)

Two men have been arrested in connection with the murder of the policeman.

Cory please keep thinking about going to Ireland, many may well not go now. After the Good Friday agreement was signed, investment in Northern Ireland has grown, in Belfast it will have the largest waterfront development in Europe, the Titanic Quarter, there's going to be a £400m retail centre, victoria Square, the riverfronts are being developed. Belfast is growing into a vibrant modern city full of Irish 'craic', tourism to the province is growing. The British government btw pours in £5000miliion a year into the economy.

There is of course still tension inside and out of the city but people are seeing the benefits of peace and are working to makelife better for everyone. It's not going to happen overnight, memories are long and the pain doesn't go away because pieces of paper are signed, bigotry takes time to stamp out but there is a breath of fresh air about these days. people may be holding their breath at the moment but optimism and hope has to win out.

Southern Ireland is a wonderful place, European money has made it one of the most modern countries going. It's not the old country that many imagine it too be or is portrayed on the films.
From Wikipedia

"Despite reduced economic growth in 2008, Ireland today has the sixth highest gross domestic product per capita and the eighth highest per capita considering purchasing power parity] and has the fifth highest Human Development Index rank in the world. *The country also boasts the highest quality of life in the world,* ranking first in the Economist Intelligence Units Quality-of-life index. Ireland was ranked sixth on the Global Peace Index. Ireland also has high rankings for its education system, political freedom and civil rights, press freedom and economic freedom; it was also ranked fourth from the bottom on the Failed States Index, being one of the few "sustainable" states in the world.
Ireland is a member of the EU, the OECD, and the UN. Ireland is not a member of NATO, although it does contribute to peacekeeping missions sanctioned by the UN."

Perhaps you can see why a united Ireland is not high on their list of priorities? to bring the Province under it's banner with it's protestant majority fighting to stay in the UK would ruin all they have built up. As bothe Eire and the UK are in the EU, there is no need for citizens of either country to show passports to enter either country, we can also work in each othrs countries, live etc so the status quo after the Good Friday agrreement suited most. 

I want people to see the positive side of things in both countries, to show the lie that the British are the invader and keeping the people down, committing atrocities. Irish history is turbulant and bloody, there is a chance now for there to be peace and I want everyone to do what they can to help that peace, America has played a big part in the peace process, keep your political people at it, keep them putting the pressure on the ones who want to ruin everything..please!

http://www.discovernorthernireland.com/

http://www.discoverireland.ie/


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 10, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Sein Fein ( the political wing of the IRA) statement on the shooting.



Tez,

I found this quote from Adams quite telling of the motivations behind those who feed on violence:



> Their intention is to bring British soldiers back onto the streets.



In other words, provoke an 'invasion,' so you can call it a 'war.' To my mind, the peace effort has shown tremendous progress. Peace broke out in Ireland, and it's exposing these alleged 'soldiers' who shot at people during a pizza delivery for what they are -- terrorists.


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## Hagakure (Mar 11, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Tez,
> *
> I found this quote from Adams quite telling of the motivations behind those who feed on violence:*
> 
> ...



I think therein lies part of the problem. There are those who find or identify themselves as "soldiers" or find their supposed purpose in war. Unfortunately these people don't stop to think about the hurt they cause, doesn't matter if they come from the Middle East, or Northern Ireland, the end result is generally the same.


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## CoryKS (Mar 11, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Cory please keep thinking about going to Ireland, many may well not go now. After the Good Friday agreement was signed, investment in Northern Ireland has grown, in Belfast it will have the largest waterfront development in Europe, the Titanic Quarter, there's going to be a £400m retail centre, victoria Square, the riverfronts are being developed. Belfast is growing into a vibrant modern city full of Irish 'craic', tourism to the province is growing. The British government btw pours in £5000miliion a year into the economy.


 
I'm sure we'll get there someday.  The main considerations are money and time.  Believe me, I'm not going to pass up a trip like that on account of a couple of numbnuts with a bomb and a manifesto!


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I'm sure we'll get there someday. The main considerations are money and time. Believe me, I'm not going to pass up a trip like that on account of a couple of numbnuts with a bomb and a manifesto!


 

I'm glad! there's also good MA training to be had in Dublin with John Kavanagh of SBG fame!

Money is a problem for everyone, there's a recession, companies going out of business etc,times could get hard for many and just as Ireland (both) are getting themselves in a good position in the world, these wicked moronic murderers want to bring chaos and murder back to the streets. If I said what I really think of them there'd be nothing but asterisks in a long line!

There's been silent vigils through the Province and I really like the slogan 'No going back'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ows-unity-dissident-IRA-killers.html?ITO=1490

"a silence that thunders around the world"


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## searcher (Mar 11, 2009)

Tez3-I would love to come over and have a visit, if you have the money for me to come.   I am so broke right now that I am having to save up to be poor.


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## Hagakure (Mar 11, 2009)

Guys, if any of you are planning on heading over to Ireland, I'd highly recommend Cork as your main base. Dublin is fine, but suffers from the usual capital city syndrome: over priced, over crowded (nothing compared to London though!) and a little on the touristy side. Cork on the other hand, retains a more authentic charm in my view. Plus, you can go from there to the likes of the Ring of Kerry. Truly astonishing place. 

Just for a taster for Kerry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CSzEKNpPK0&feature=related or, 



 C'mon the green, white and gold!  
For practice, if any of you are able to watch Father Ted, it's well worth it.  DRINK! FECK! ****! GURLZ!


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2009)

This is something that is well known to those of us of a certain age, who served in NI at a certain time. Everyone of us knows the words to this song and everyone of us will sing it with tears streaming down our faces unashamedly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlDOOVZ1HQ&feature=related


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Willetts


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## Sukerkin (Mar 11, 2009)

That is powerful stuff indeed, Irene.  I am not ashamed to share that I shed a tear or two listening to that.


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## jks9199 (Mar 11, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Guys, if any of you are planning on heading over to Ireland, I'd highly recommend Cork as your main base. Dublin is fine, but suffers from the usual capital city syndrome: over priced, over crowded (nothing compared to London though!) and a little on the touristy side. Cork on the other hand, retains a more authentic charm in my view. Plus, you can go from there to the likes of the Ring of Kerry. Truly astonishing place.
> 
> Just for a taster for Kerry. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CSzEKNpPK0&feature=related or,
> 
> ...


Wherever I were to start -- I'd have to visit County Mayo.  That's where my family's from...


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## FieldDiscipline (Mar 12, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> This is something that is well known to those of us of a certain age, who served in NI at a certain time. Everyone of us knows the words to this song and everyone of us will sing it with tears streaming down our faces unashamedly.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLlDOOVZ1HQ&feature=related
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Willetts



I thought of that as soon as I learned the lads had tried to shield the pizza delivery men.



> His selflessness, his courage are beyond praise.



Beyond words too.  Every man an Emperor as they say.


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2009)

"God has given such brave soldiers to this Crown that, if they do not frighten our neighbours, at least they prevent us from being frightened by them. "
Queen Elizabeth the First

Our present Queen can say the same.


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## Tez3 (Mar 12, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7940123.stm

too upsetting to comment on this


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7940362.stm

This is a first in Northern Ireland, the bodies of the soldiers leaving camp for the airport openly and mourned by the local people.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7940362.stm
> 
> This is a first in Northern Ireland, the bodies of the soldiers leaving camp for the airport openly and mourned by the local people.


 
tez,

I gew up with a daily diet of news on Northern Ireland -- the events were watched closely by Canadians. I'll never forget a story, from 1970 I believe, of a Catholic girl who became engaged to a British soldier. In retaliation, tar was poured on her head. She married the bloke in a wig.

It seems to me, as an onlooker, a couple of events helped to turn the tide. Sein Fein's rise as a political force, one which was willing to sit down and talk, as well as Britain's willingness to sit down and talk, has made giant leaps. Also, it seems to me that in the seventies, mothers of Catholic and Protestant families basically sai, "Enough," and began to organize. Would you agree?

As I said somewhere above, peace broke out in Ireland.

Question: In one of your links I spotted the phrase, "Real IRA" -- is this how dissident factions identify themselves?


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> tez,
> 
> I gew up with a daily diet of news on Northern Ireland -- the events were watched closely by Canadians. I'll never forget a story, from 1970 I believe, of a Catholic girl who became engaged to a British soldier. In retaliation, tar was poured on her head. She married the bloke in a wig.
> 
> ...


 

There's many splinter groups on both sides.
The Real IRA claimed the soldiers shooting, the Continuity IRA claimed the policemans. There's also the Irish National Liberation Army.

There's probably about 100 members of the Real IRA, they left the Provisional IRA in 1997 when they fell out with Sein Fein over the peace talks. they don't have as many weapons as the Provos had nor the support but there' enough to be dangerous. Over the past few months there's been intel and incidents that have been pointing towards a major upsurge in terrorist attacks, thats why the spec forces were sent in not long ago. what was feared was a repeat of the Real IRA's worst atrocity, the Omagh bombing in 1998. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/152156.stm

The Continuity IRA broke awau a little earlier, the breakaway terroist while still part of the Provos are considered to have been the ones behind the Remembrance Day massacre at Eniskillen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_bombing

The INLA is smaller and less active but can still cause damage if they wish.

Other terrorist groups in N Ireland.


Continuity Army Council - Catholic

Cumann na mBan - Catholic

Fianna na hEireann - Catholic 

Irish National Liberation Army - Catholic

Irish People's Liberation Organisation - Catholic 

Irish Republican Army - Catholic

Loyalist Volunteer Force - Protestant

Orange Volunteers - Protestant 

Red Hand Commando - Protestant

Red Hand Defenders - Protestant​

Saor Eire - communist/Catholic

Ulster Defence Association - Protestant
Ulster Freedom Fighters - ProtestantUlster Volunteer Force - Protestant


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## Hagakure (Mar 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> There's many splinter groups on both sides.
> The Real IRA claimed the soldiers shooting, the Continuity IRA claimed the policemans. There's also the Irish National Liberation Army.
> 
> There's probably about 100 members of the Real IRA, they left the Provisional IRA in 1997 when they fell out with Sein Fein over the peace talks. they don't have as many weapons as the Provos had nor the support but there' enough to be dangerous. Over the past few months there's been intel and incidents that have been pointing towards a major upsurge in terrorist attacks, thats why the spec forces were sent in not long ago. what was feared was a repeat of the Real IRA's worst atrocity, the Omagh bombing in 1998.
> ...


 
Very detailed list mate, and highlights just how widespread the Troubles are, and how simple a situation it isn't over there. Boys with toys most of them. Standing there in their balaclavas shooting their big guns into the air, making anonymous threats. One day. One day, each and every one of those men of violence will get their just desserts, the same applies to anyone who thinks it's acceptable to kill indiscriminately, and may they each get their very own, personal hell.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> Very detailed list mate, and highlights just how widespread the Troubles are, and how simple a situation it isn't over there. Boys with toys most of them. Standing there in their balaclavas shooting their big guns into the air, making anonymous threats. One day. One day, each and every one of those men of violence will get their just desserts, the same applies to anyone who thinks it's acceptable to kill indiscriminately, and may they each get their very own, personal hell.


 
Ta, I've only quoted whats in the public domain. There is more but I don't want to post anything you can't get through the media.
There will be reckoning though, it may take us years but never think it has been forgotten.


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