# Could you keep going?



## Flatlander (Apr 17, 2006)

I recently saw an older UFC match wherein one fighter had his arm broken, but wanted to continue the fight - for this gentleman, he knew his life wasn't being threatened, it was his competitive spirit that enabled him to want to continue the fight.

The ref stopped the fight, by the way.

My question is, do you think that you could continue to defend yourself with the necessary spirit and vigor with a broken limb, hand, etc.?  Along the same line, how can we train this mindset in a realistic fashion?  I'm having trouble imagining how to do this in an effective way, as there is no demonstrable way to simulate the pain of the injury in training.

Just an idea that popped into my mind over the weekend.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 17, 2006)

At this stage of my training, I can say I would certainly continue fighting if I were truly in jeopardy.  In a reffed match, though?  I'm not certain I wouldn't bow out.


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## Lisa (Apr 17, 2006)

I am not sure, truly.  I would think it would depend on the adrenalin level in my body.  I am a wuss truthfully.  Don't like pain, don't believe in pushing through it to prove something.  I would rather be able to train again sooner then if I went on and did more damage.  Serious pain is your body's way of saying "stop".


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 17, 2006)

No doubt in my mind I could.  And that's the attitude that is nessecary to be ablt to do it.  (Un)Luckily, I've had the experience to know that I can.

Jeff


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## Eternal Beginner (Apr 17, 2006)

I definitely think I could.  I know how adrenaline carries you through injuries in a sport setting, so I can imagine it would be at least as effective in a true self-defence scenario.

I have competed while injured, not deliberately, but because I had no idea because of adrenaline.  I have teammates who have continued to play (not MA but other sports like baseball and golf - surprisingly enough) with fairly serious injuries.  One being a fractured leg and another a broken wrist.

When threatened, I think the body can do amazing things.  My brother-in-law's brother managed to drag himself two miles after falling out of a tree stand with a shattered leg, broken pelvis and dislocated shoulder.  Survival instinct is very strong.

Of course in a fun setting, you'd be crazy to push through just for the "W".


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> My question is, do you think that you could continue to defend yourself with the necessary spirit and vigor with a broken limb, hand, etc.?  Along the same line, how can we train this mindset in a realistic fashion?  I'm having trouble imagining how to do this in an effective way, as there is no demonstrable way to simulate the pain of the injury in training.


Your example was a sports competition.  I don't know if I could.

But... From a life/death survival situation, yes I believe I could.  However, I believe that it is something that you cannot consciously quantify or examine.  Even the timid and meek can become very courageous under the right circumstances.  I believe that martial arts cultivates this spirit, but many have it naturally and or have cultivated it with other endeavors.  I don't believe it is anything you can "work on" specifically.  If you truely train, are true to yourself, and do what is right (in life), I believe it will naturally come to you.  At least that is my opinion.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 17, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I recently saw an older UFC match wherein one fighter had his arm broken, but wanted to continue the fight - for this gentleman, he knew his life wasn't being threatened, it was his competitive spirit that enabled him to want to continue the fight.
> 
> The ref stopped the fight, by the way.
> 
> ...




Many many many years ago I broke my arm, and I was on my way up to go beat the guy who had caused the fall and the broken arm. 

Some might say it was shock and not realizing tht it was broke. I knew it was broke but had it truly sunk in yet?

I wanted to go and get my turn against this guy. Well I was stopped by people nearby and do not know for sure I could have gone on or not but that was my intention at that time.


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## Grenadier (Apr 17, 2006)

I can't answer for myself, but adrenaline can be a big factor in someone being able to carry on a fight, even after being seriously wounded.  

If you read up on the 1986 incident between two bank robbers and the FBI, it's rather chilling to see how far someone can go on adrenaline alone.  No drugs were involved:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Of particular interest is the sheer amount of damage Platt took, and still kept on fighting.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 17, 2006)

I think it would depend on the severity of the break, and the situation.

Guys continue fighting with minor breaks all the time, having your shin snap right in half and leg do that floppy thing would be another issue...


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> If you read up on the 1986 incident between two bank robbers and the FBI, it's rather chilling to see how far someone can go on adrenaline alone.  No drugs were involved:
> 
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm
> 
> Of particular interest is the sheer amount of damage Platt took, and still kept on fighting.


That was amazing stuff.  But I believe there is something MORE than that.  I believe adrenaline will get you to point X  but the sheer will of the human spirit (or whatever you want to call it) to survive is what takes people beyond.  But where they stop is relavent to how much they have.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 17, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think it would depend on the severity of the break, and the situation.
> 
> Guys continue fighting with minor breaks all the time, having your shin snap right in half and leg do that floppy thing would be another issue...



Oh man!  That makes me cringe!  I saw a couple of videos where that happened.  OUCH!


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## Flatlander (Apr 17, 2006)

So, would the body going into shock be an issue here?  Perhaps one might not "feel" those effect due to the shock.... Can one still function once the body goes into shock?

I skimmed the description of the incident Grenadier posted from 1986.  It seems to me that, with all of the damage this Platt guy took, he must have been in shock at that point, yet still managed, in terrible condition, with internal hemmorhaging and shattered bones, to continue the gun fight.  Yikes.

Is this simple mental focus - an unwillingness to be 'taken alive'?  If so, how do we develop this trait in a reasonable way?


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## CuongNhuka (Apr 17, 2006)

I wouldn't know from experiene. Or even half experience (ie haveing a brocken linb). The closest to a serious injury I've come is a partialy torn muscle. The one on the outside of your forearm. Though I suspect that if my life was on the line, then yes I think I could. If it was sport fighting then no. I have seriouly wanged my knee once when sparring, I called it a day. Or if it was just because some idiot wanted to beat me up, I would do my best to avoid the whole thing. If my life was on the line, then I think I would fight through a whole lot.


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## Blindside (Apr 17, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I recently saw an older UFC match wherein one fighter had his arm broken, but wanted to continue the fight - for this gentleman, he knew his life wasn't being threatened, it was his competitive spirit that enabled him to want to continue the fight.
> 
> The ref stopped the fight, by the way.
> 
> ...


 
This is a matter of focus.  My sister was a professional ballet dancer (major company), one of her friends doing a solo performance fell and broke her leg.  She FINISHED HER PIECE, and when she came off the stage called for her understudy to get ready.  I would hope that the incentive of someone trying to continue to hurt me would give me as much ability to work past the pain as that dancer demonstrated.  

I've seen members of our school to continue to fight after receiving concussions, broken ribs, etc in point tournaments.  It is a safe environment, but you can use it to test yourself to see how you could perform.  We do something similar with exhaustion during sparring to our upper belts during their tests.  

Lamont


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## Cruentus (Apr 17, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I recently saw an older UFC match wherein one fighter had his arm broken, but wanted to continue the fight - for this gentleman, he knew his life wasn't being threatened, it was his competitive spirit that enabled him to want to continue the fight.
> 
> The ref stopped the fight, by the way.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting topic.

I just wanted to remind everyone that when comparing the professional sportsman of today to the non-professional sportsman, just like with many sports, performance enhancing drugs are a factor. Many professional MMA competitors regularly do steroids, pain killers, and other drugs that would allow them to perform feats on the mats that they wouldn't ordinarily do under normal conditions.

I am not accusing the individual mentioned here or anyone of drug use, because that fact is you usually can't look at someone or watch someone perform and determine that. I can tell you that I have trained with and trained MMA competitors who all tell me that this is an unspoken reality of the sport. Only a drug test, an admission of drug use, or being caught in the act can determine that. Some people are just extremely tough under pressure, and there is no question in my mind that some people would continue to fight after a broken arm without the help of drugs.

But, performance enhancing drugs are an unfortunate reality of professional sports nowadays. One cannot compare themselves to a professional athelete without at least taking this into consideration.

Paul


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## celtic_crippler (Apr 17, 2006)

In reality, you will hopefully do whatever it takes to remain alive and be the one that walks away. In a sport setting, you should do whatever it takes to minimize injuries so that you can compete again. In either scenario, it boils down to good sense and self preservation. IMHO =)


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## Cruentus (Apr 17, 2006)

I should also add something of value as far as training is concerned; the body will do amazing things if one has the proper mentality.

Accross the board from interview after interview of people who have survived life threatening situations under terrible conditions is what we call a "winning mentality." People just don't survive terrible situations by saying, "I just folded over and gave up."

People survive because they have a winning mentality. They are determined that no matter what, they will walk away not just a surviving victim, but a winner.

How do you know that you will have this enough to fight through extreme conditions or injury? Like most things, there is no way to tell with 100% reliability. But, I can say that in psychology it is pretty wall proven that what people are willing to do or endure is generally determined by identity. People will kill themselves or castrate themselves in cults if they have made the cult philosophy a part of their identity. If someone is going to fight through extreme injury, it is because they have made it a part of their identity to win.

You can be pretty sure that you will be able to fight through extreme situations, regardless of your personal health and physical abilities, if you have made it a part of your identity to do so.

Paul Janulis


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## Hand Sword (Apr 17, 2006)

Yes! Proper mind set is the key to any endeavor.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> I recently saw an older UFC match wherein one fighter had his arm broken, but wanted to continue the fight - for this gentleman, he knew his life wasn't being threatened, it was his competitive spirit that enabled him to want to continue the fight.
> 
> The ref stopped the fight, by the way.
> 
> ...


 
I recall a fight with Ken Shamrock, in which he had a broken hand and still continued.  After the match, the injured hand prevented him from going on to another match.  

That being said, I'd say alot of it comes down to the adrenaline and the mind set.  A while back I injured my knee during a grappling session.  It took me a while to talk myself out of thinking that the person did this intentionally, but nonetheless, despite some increasing pain, I managed to finish the round.  Of course, later on, it hurt like hell, and I felt like I was 100yrs old the next day, due to the inability to walk.

Mike


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, In match type of tournments...the "ref's" has to do their jobs to protect the fighter from more damages.  This is only a contest between fighters and there are rules to follow.

In the real world of street fighting, anything goes, anything can happen to you...with the adrenline going...most of us usually will not feel the punches and pain till it is over....

Could most of us keep going? ...is there a choice here?  ...if the attacker keeps attacking?   ..now if I can raise one hand up and say "I had enough" and he stops...I'll stop too!    

The answer..off course keep fighting back...no matter what...there maybe "NO" 2nd chances...Aloha


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## Flatlander (Apr 18, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> The answer..off course keep fighting back...no matter what...there maybe "NO" 2nd chances...Aloha


easy to say, but how easy to do?  The point of the thread was, how can we train it?  How can we test it?  How can I be certain that when the time comes, it's going to be death before failure?


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## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

no way, man. He'd be thanking the ref the next day, though he'd probobly not admit it.


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> easy to say, but how easy to do? The point of the thread was, how can we train it? How can we test it? How can I be certain that when the time comes, it's going to be death before failure?


 
You can't train for this...it is in your mind!  Most of us will not experience the (fight or flee) until it happen.  Facing real life and death situtions do not happen everyday.

Samurai's except death before going into battle....that is one way to train for it...

You can look at this question as...Do I give up ...or not give up?  ...pain and damages are to be expected..except that much...how much more? you can take? .....this is where your "Killer instincts" will determine this.

Most bullies like when you give up easy....your choice....Aloha


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## Hand Sword (Apr 19, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> easy to say, but how easy to do? The point of the thread was, how can we train it? How can we test it? How can I be certain that when the time comes, it's going to be death before failure?


 

No confrontation will be easy, too many variables to consider. The best we can do is to train as realistically as possible, mind set, scenarios, etc. I'm not saying that this is the end all, but, it's all we have. Keep the focus of your training true self defense. You can test out your training by working as a bouncer. That will get you experience, and get you over the fear of a confrontation. You can't be certain when it comes to it, because nothing is certain. You'll have to have faith in yourself and your training. Plus, your desire for self preservation will aid you in that mindset, when it really goes down, and your attacked.


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## still learning (Apr 19, 2006)

Hello, Ever watch those real life shows how people survive in a desert,car wreck not found for days,ship wrecks,caught in snow storms,hurricanes and so on....who are hurt..but still fight for their life.

Those who give up..die fast?  .....Could you keep going? ....

In a real street fight..something is broken...but the attacker keeps coming...could you keep going? ....choice is give-up and get hurt more..or try to continune fighting..to save your life..

Most of us would want to keep going....NEVER GIVE UP! ...Aloha


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## stickarts (Apr 19, 2006)

My dad and my fight instructor drilled into me that you don't quit.
I have continued sparring bouts where I have gotten popped pretty good and felt my legs wanting to buckle but did my best not to show it on the outside and continued on.
I have also personally recovered from some pretty traumatic situations that could have ended badly.
I would like to think that i wouldn't quit when it was all on the line in any given situation.
I haven't quit yet!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

You wouldn't! Self preservation overrules everything else when it comes to it. You'll do whatever is necessary.


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## still learning (Apr 21, 2006)

Hello, The "Killer Instincts" usually refers to people who willing fight back..no matter what the odds are.

In their minds they are not thinking of getting hurt (they except this part)...they with the "killer instincts" ....is only thinking of what they going do to you....these people will not stop at anything...you can break both legs...they will crawl to reach you....most people with "Killer Intincts" ...do not give up easly.

Could we keep on going? ...off course you can...plan for it!

Quit is words for the other person....Aloha


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 25, 2006)

adrenaline can do some weird things.

i've fought through minor breaks during sports.  since the adrenaline and will would be even further engaged in a real situation, i imagine i'd be able to do it.

be careful of sucker punches.  one reason they're so effective is you don't have the adrenaline and natural painkillers flowing yet.  a show-starter that breaks part of you could easily be a show-stopper.


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