# Taekwondo class structure



## falcon (Oct 24, 2019)

I have had a tkd gym for about 2.5 years now and i am still struggling with how to run class and finding drills for my students. I personally feel like i am failing my students, cause i haven't seen a lot of improvement in them, which i could blame on them cause some of them arent very motivated but i big portion of it is on me, so i was wandering if any one could give me some advice on finding drills and structuring a class. I know some people have paid monthly subscriptions for drills and class structure, are those any good and if so which ones or should i just stay away from them? I would appreciate any help thanks.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 24, 2019)

I am sure the school-owners on this site can give you some good advice, but what about the drills your teacher had you do when you were a student?


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## wab25 (Oct 24, 2019)

Here is the problem... what your students need to work on, to get the most improvement is their basics. But, the basics are the last thing your students want to work on, once they think they have it. 

I like to look at my students, and find something basic that they all need to work on. Every class, we will work on that for a few minutes before doing the "fun" stuff. Over time, that basic will improve, and so will a bunch of other things as well. (heck, you will improve in that basic skill)

You don't have to spend a ton of time on it, 10-15 minutes per class should do it, over time. Consistency is key. 

You can also disguise it a little. Say you want them to work on the lunge punch. You can just do lunge punches. You can do them super slow, as a warm up stretching exercise. You can do them fast, for speed or cardio if you do a lot. You can put them into simple drills: three in a row, block then punch, block then three in a row. You don't have to get complicated. You can cheat, and "work on blocking the punch." The class is now focused on the block, but they are getting their reps on the same punch. You can do blocks, parries, counter attacks, take downs whatever, as long as you are using the same punch as the attack. In their minds, they are not doing the same thing. You can do combos, that start or end with the punch... again, don't get over complicated. The trick is to change what they think they are doing, while they get a ton of reps on the basic. 

After a few months, you should see improvement in that basic technique you choose, but also in a few other areas as well. Then pick another basic. Remember, the basics are the basics, because the rest of the art is built on top of them. If you improve the foundation, you improve the whole building.


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## falcon (Oct 24, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I am sure the school-owners on this site can give you some good advice, but what about the drills your teacher had you do when you were a student?


i do a lot of them, but they still dont seem to be improving so i am looking for something new.


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## falcon (Oct 24, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Here is the problem... what your students need to work on, to get the most improvement is their basics. But, the basics are the last thing your students want to work on, once they think they have it.
> 
> I like to look at my students, and find something basic that they all need to work on. Every class, we will work on that for a few minutes before doing the "fun" stuff. Over time, that basic will improve, and so will a bunch of other things as well. (heck, you will improve in that basic skill)
> 
> ...


reply thanks for the advice i will try to think about things like disguising things like that. my problem is i have one students that has been the longest and he dosent improve hes been almost 2 years and every time he does his forms i cant even be in a basic front stance he is basically just standing straight up and i have been trying to drill it in his head but nothing clicks, and just several examples like that that is seems no matter how much i work on something there isnt a whole lot of improvement.


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## dvcochran (Oct 24, 2019)

This sounds like there may be class structure/formality/expectation issues. There has to be measurable, chartable goals for each belt/rank. That is a foundational component in all TKD styles/schools that I have been around. 
If your model is such that people move up in rank solely triggered by time I feel that is a big problem for both the student and the instructor. If you students feel entitled to move up that is an even bigger issue.
To coin an old football phrase, the "tone" has to be set accordingly.


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> This sounds like there may be class structure/formality/expectation issues. There has to be measurable, chartable goals for each belt/rank. That is a foundational component in all TKD styles/schools that I have been around.
> If your model is such that people move up in rank solely triggered by time I feel that is a big problem for both the student and the instructor. If you students feel entitled to move up that is an even bigger issue.
> To coin an old football phrase, the "tone" has to be set accordingly.


Time is definitely not the only constraint, but to be honest i had no idea what i was doing when i started so i didnt have a very detailed system, but the last month a have been getting all that figured out and am going to put it in place soon in my dojang. but im not sure if any of my students feel entitled to move up i think one of the moms of a kid thinks he should move up, so how would i fix that or fix if the student felt entitled has well? i also want this thread to stay mostly about the first post so this is just a quick side question since it came up.


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## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2019)

falcon said:


> I have had a tkd gym for about 2.5 years now and i am still struggling with how to run class and finding drills for my students. I personally feel like i am failing my students, cause i haven't seen a lot of improvement in them, which i could blame on them cause some of them arent very motivated but i big portion of it is on me, so i was wandering if any one could give me some advice on finding drills and structuring a class. I know some people have paid monthly subscriptions for drills and class structure, are those any good and if so which ones or should i just stay away from them? I would appreciate any help thanks.


Ok, let's start this from the beginning.
What is your experience and background? Age? Superlatives?
Detail an average class for us. What do you do? How long? What tools are you using?
What is your new student sign-up structure? Month to month or contract? Terms? Black Belt program?
How/what do you advertise your BUSINESS?

Let us try to get these out of the way and we can go from there.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2019)

falcon said:


> reply thanks for the advice i will try to think about things like disguising things like that. my problem is i have one students that has been the longest and he dosent improve hes been almost 2 years and every time he does his forms i cant even be in a basic front stance he is basically just standing straight up and i have been trying to drill it in his head but nothing clicks, and just several examples like that that is seems no matter how much i work on something there isnt a whole lot of improvement.


id be tempted to hold the student mostly responsible, some one with even average motor patterns should show marked improvement just through simple repeticion. if after two years he cant get the basics then its a reasonable conclusion his motor pattern recognition is somewhat less than average or he isnt trying very hard at all.

i have a niece with a neurological problem that means coordination and motor patterns are not her strong point to say the least, two years of practise riding bikes, dancing and catching balls have improve her beyond all recognition


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 25, 2019)

You need to recognize:
A.  Their are 3 types of Learners Auditory, Visual and Tactile, - Hit all 3 methods of teaching as necessary. 
B. Everyone has  a different level of Proprioception but kids need to develop it more.  This is the brains ability to determine where limbs are without looking, so what can be mistaken as laziness or lack of understanding may be a proprioception issue.   The work around is to First make sure they understand what the positions should be and then encourage them to look at their position and then correct.   You can see if they know the correct technique by saying "Johnny - Fix the front leg " and see if they move it to the correct position.  Then continue them to Look / Check.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 25, 2019)

Give us an example of a specific issue and perhaps we can suggest a specific drill.


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## jobo (Oct 25, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> You need to recognize:
> A.  Their are 3 types of Learners Auditory, Visual and Tactile, - Hit all 3 methods of teaching as necessary.
> B. Everyone has  a different level of Proprioception but kids need to develop it more.  This is the brains ability to determine where limbs are without looking, so what can be mistaken as laziness or lack of understanding may be a proprioception issue.   The work around is to First make sure they understand what the positions should be and then encourage them to look at their position and then correct.   You can see if they know the correct technique by saying "Johnny - Fix the front leg " and see if they move it to the correct position.  Then continue them to Look / Check.


 i didn't get the impression he was talking about children, but it doesn't really matter, if two years have not substantially improved them, then there is a much deeper underlying problem with may well be out side of a twice weekly ma class to address and at the least it requires him or her to practise proprioception exercise at home.

i've notice that ma schools tend to attract people who are not other wise sporty or well coordinated ( quite why they think they can learn martial arts if they cant learn to play soccer or net ball etal is beyond me ) and whilst there should be improvement, there's a distinctive limit on what is reasonable to achieve, but no progress at all should be a distinct warning sign that the issues run deep


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## wab25 (Oct 25, 2019)

falcon said:


> my problem is i have one students that has been the longest and he dosent improve hes been almost 2 years and every time he does his forms i cant even be in a basic front stance he is basically just standing straight up


If he can't do the front stance... why is he doing forms? When I started Karate, the first thing I was shown was stances: front, back and side. I learned to walk forward and backward in each stance. I learned to transition from one stance to the other. I learned the basic blocks and punches in each stance. Once I could show a decent stance (read: my front stance was not me standing straight and my back stance was also not me standing straight and it looked different than what I called my front stance) then I was introduced to kata. There is no point in doing kata, if you can't do the stances by themselves.

Our first kata starts: left turn into front stance with down block, step forward in front stance with lunge punch, turn 180 degrees, into a front stance with down block, then step forward in front stance with lunge punch...

If I couldn't do the front stance... this kata is not even worth starting. We would start be just standing in front stance... Sensei would make sure the stance was correct, then we held it. Then we did the blocks or punches. Or we walked forward and backward. Or we walked forward and backward doing blocks and or punches. Doing these simple drills each class should help, provided you make sure he gets into what you call a front stance first. 

You could even start with stretching at the beginning of class. Get into a deep front stance to stretch the legs. Slowly step forward to stretch the other side. Add your body to the stretch, when you step forward this time, do your down blocks nice and slow, doing the full body movement. Do step with down block alternating sides across the mat, slowly for the stretch, just loosening up. Then do a set where you are throwing the lunge punch. Oops... sorry, look at our first kata above... In doing these stretches you just did 80-90% of the first part of that kata without thinking about it... and you got them to over emphasize the front stance, for "stretching" reasons.

Personally, I would not have students doing kata, until they can do the stances required in the kata. Same goes for the punches, blocks and kicks in a kata.


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## pdg (Oct 25, 2019)

jobo said:


> i've notice that ma schools tend to attract people who are not other wise sporty or well coordinated ( quite why they think they can learn martial arts if they cant learn to play soccer or net ball etal is beyond me ) and whilst there should be improvement, there's a distinctive limit on what is reasonable to achieve, but no progress at all should be a distinct warning sign that the issues run deep



I've never been sporty before - but nothing to do with "can't learn to play", much more "don't want to play".

Simply zero interest in watching or playing that sort of sport.

Don't mind tennis, but only got into playing (more than once every few years) after starting TKD anyway.


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Ok, let's start this from the beginning.
> What is your experience and background? Age? Superlatives?
> Detail an average class for us. What do you do? How long? What tools are you using?
> What is your new student sign-up structure? Month to month or contract? Terms? Black Belt program?
> ...


I am i 2nd degree recommended black belt, 23
for the class we bow in then we do warmups we usely do either ladder drills, excersizes (pushups, situps, squats),  side shuffle, jogging, grape vine up and down the floor, on days we go up and down the floor we will do kicks across the floor or stance work across the floor. After that we we will kick the bags, shields, or paddles i usely try to keep them doing the same kind of kick like different side kicks, different round kicks and things like that. After that we might do forms depending on the day. i know the way i run class needs improvement and its something i am in the process of changing, and thats also why im asking for help.
we dont do a month to month contract. we have a sign up offer for 6 weeks for $49 and you get a free uniform. we dont have a black belt program cause we only have a few blackbelts at my school and they are all my family that i got my black belt with.
i advertise on facebook mostly


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

and most of my students are kids, the few adults that i have quit usely, but i do a few older kids.


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> You need to recognize:
> A.  Their are 3 types of Learners Auditory, Visual and Tactile, - Hit all 3 methods of teaching as necessary.
> B. Everyone has  a different level of Proprioception but kids need to develop it more.  This is the brains ability to determine where limbs are without looking, so what can be mistaken as laziness or lack of understanding may be a proprioception issue.   The work around is to First make sure they understand what the positions should be and then encourage them to look at their position and then correct.   You can see if they know the correct technique by saying "Johnny - Fix the front leg " and see if they move it to the correct position.  Then continue them to Look / Check.


how long would you say it takes for a student to get that down cause if i am constantly telling my students they will go into an okay stance but it still needs work.


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Give us an example of a specific issue and perhaps we can suggest a specific drill.


some issues are stances arent deep enough, flopping of the body well kicking, looking away from the target well kicking, no power when doing forms. those are a few problems i thought of really quick some are having them just cause they are new and it will be corrected over time but others just dont seem to get it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 25, 2019)

falcon said:


> if any one could give me some advice on finding drills and structuring a class.


You may try to teach a set of "partner drills". For example,

1. punch only:

- 1 step 1 punch.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 3 punches.
- 2 steps 1 punch.
- 3 steps 1 punch.
- jump in punch.
- hook punch, back fist, upper cut, hammer fist, jab, cross.
- ...

2. kick only:

- side kick, back kick.
- hook kick, roundhouse kick.
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick.
- ...

3. punch + kick:

- groin kick, face punch.
- side kick, spin back fist.
- side kick, palm chop to the neck.
- ...

You can always help your students to build up their basic/foundation through partner drills.

When one student train the offense move/combo, his partner can train the defense move (block punch, dodge punch, block kick, dodge kick, …). This way the offense and defense are taught together.
​Those partner drills can be mapped into solo drills when partner is not available. If you link those solo drills, you have just created solo form/forms.


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## dvcochran (Oct 25, 2019)

falcon said:


> I am i 2nd degree recommended black belt, 23
> for the class we bow in then we do warmups we usely do either ladder drills, excersizes (pushups, situps, squats),  side shuffle, jogging, grape vine up and down the floor, on days we go up and down the floor we will do kicks across the floor or stance work across the floor. After that we we will kick the bags, shields, or paddles i usely try to keep them doing the same kind of kick like different side kicks, different round kicks and things like that. After that we might do forms depending on the day. i know the way i run class needs improvement and its something i am in the process of changing, and thats also why im asking for help.
> we dont do a month to month contract. we have a sign up offer for 6 weeks for $49 and you get a free uniform. we dont have a black belt program cause we only have a few blackbelts at my school and they are all my family that i got my black belt with.
> i advertise on facebook mostly


So retainage is a BIG issue. This speaks loudly to the program, material being taught, and most importantly HOW it is being taught. Even the best of marketing systems do not keep people is a program/school they do not enjoy and desire to be at. 
From what you described, not a lot of Martial Arts are being taught and instead it is largely an organized exercise program. 
One of the best things our GM says is that he gives us all the information necessary to adeptly learn everything in class. It is the responsibility of the student to receive the information and learn it. Just like we do in grade school or upper level education. And just like the results if someone repeatedly fails exams in school the same expectation must be there in the Dojang. It doesn't have to be an overt display. Better that a mood or tone is set and embraced by everyone, including the teacher(s). It sounds like this may be a challenge for you, possibly given your age and rank, but you need to make it a primary goal to engage with adults and learn what causes them to leave the program. 
FWIW, the 6 week deal you offer only works if most people hang around for 8-12 months. Of course that is still not ideal either.


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## falcon (Oct 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> So retainage is a BIG issue. This speaks loudly to the program, material being taught, and most importantly HOW it is being taught. Even the best of marketing systems do not keep people is a program/school they do not enjoy and desire to be at.
> From what you described, not a lot of Martial Arts are being taught and instead it is largely an organized exercise program.
> One of the best things our GM says is that he gives us all the information necessary to adeptly learn everything in class. It is the responsibility of the student to receive the information and learn it. Just like we do in grade school or upper level education. And just like the results if someone repeatedly fails exams in school the same expectation must be there in the Dojang. It doesn't have to be an overt display. Better that a mood or tone is set and embraced by everyone, including the teacher(s). It sounds like this may be a challenge for you, possibly given your age and rank, but you need to make it a primary goal to engage with adults and learn what causes them to leave the program.
> FWIW, the 6 week deal you offer only works if most people hang around for 8-12 months. Of course that is still not ideal either.


what makes you say i dont teach martial arts in my class cause that all i teach in the classes, and has of right now the adults that i have sign up quit cause there son wanted to do bjj, one said it was to hard, and cause of family emergency issues it things like that, i have had very few adults even sign up.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> how long would you say it takes for a student to get that down cause if i am constantly telling my students they will go into an okay stance but it still needs work.



Recently considered this issue because I have a 15 year old who achieved BB after about 10 years and it seemed like there were several years of nagging her about fixing stuff and now people will look at her and comment on how good the technique is technically. As I said I nagged her for years and she had the advantage of being  smart enough to grasp every detail and the range of motion physicality came easy.  Still I hammered her for years.   So, the other day I asked her what made the difference? I was looking for the "Secret Sauce " to use on other young students.   What finally made the change?   She aid - nagging me for years - so much for hoping for the secret sauce.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> some issues are stances arent deep enough, flopping of the body well kicking, looking away from the target well kicking, no power when doing forms. those are a few problems i thought of really quick some are having them just cause they are new and it will be corrected over time but others just don't seem to get it.


I think you have to differentiate between issues that are mental, physical and mechanical.   Mental - They just don't get it.   Again use the 3 types of teaching and try different explanations.   Physical -  The body can't do it (perhaps this will improve in time with maturation) Try small incremental improvements.   Mechanical - The elements are not correct.   For this - teach the elements in all 3 ways if needed. Use marks on floor if need be. After teaching each element ask the to explain like "How wide should your stance be - Show me. "  If they canTell you and do it after you teach then it is a paying attention or proprioception issue.   First tell them how to correct - for example "Longer". Next level  Tell them to look at their stance. Next level - Tell them to fix their stance.      If I repeat the same thing often I tell them OK next time  and each time after I will charge you 5 cents.   Then I start saying each time you owe me 5 cents, 10 cents etc..  -


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## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> what makes you say i dont teach martial arts in my class cause that all i teach in the classes, and has of right now the adults that i have sign up quit cause there son wanted to do bjj, one said it was to hard, and cause of family emergency issues it things like that, i have had very few adults even sign up.





falcon said:


> I am i 2nd degree recommended black belt, 23
> for the class we bow in then we do warmups we usely do either ladder drills, excersizes (pushups, situps, squats), side shuffle, jogging, grape vine up and down the floor, on days we go up and down the floor we will do kicks across the floor or stance work across the floor. After that we we will kick the bags, shields, or paddles i usely try to keep them doing the same kind of kick like different side kicks, different round kicks and things like that. After that we might do forms depending on the day. i know the way i run class needs improvement and its something i am in the process of changing, and thats also why im asking for help.
> we dont do a month to month contract. we have a sign up offer for 6 weeks for $49 and you get a free uniform. we dont have a black belt program cause we only have a few blackbelts at my school and they are all my family that i got my black belt with.
> i advertise on facebook mostly


I am not trying to offend. You asked for help so I am offering my advise and experience.
Are you a WT/Kukki school? If so, as I have said often before, there are inherent flaws in the model for doing it long term. You stated you do not do forms every class and did not mention sparring or self defense/one steps at all. r
So is your primarily focus on teaching for WT style sparring skills? Do you mostly do dynamic warmups and kicking drills?


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## falcon (Oct 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am not trying to offend. You asked for help so I am offering my advise and experience.
> Are you a WT/Kukki school? If so, as I have said often before, there are inherent flaws in the model for doing it long term. You stated you do not do forms every class and did not mention sparring or self defense/one steps at all. r
> So is your primarily focus on teaching for WT style sparring skills? Do you mostly do dynamic warm ups and kicking drills?


i do sparring and self defense in the classes, one step drills, i just laid out the average class cause they arent done as much. what would you recomend i do every class or another way of putting it what is your average class look like?


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2019)

Falcon, how long have you been training? And were you "taught how to teach" by your instructors, or were you just thrown to the wolves like so many of us were?


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## falcon (Oct 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> Falcon, how long have you been training? And were you "taught how to teach" by your instructors, or were you just thrown to the wolves like so many of us were?


i have been training for about 8 years, i was not taught how to teach i decided i wanted a school so i am trying to figure it all out, which is why im asking for some help here.


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## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> i do sparring and self defense in the classes, one step drills, i just laid out the average class cause they arent done as much. what would you recomend i do every class or another way of putting it what is your average class look like?


Our classes are 1 hour and 30-40 minutes. Generally, the first 20 minutes are stretching, dynamic first, static second. Then we will do floor drills and pad work. We usually concentrate on forms or one-steps, doing one or the other heavily for 6-8 weeks at a time. The last 30 minutes of each class is a combination of light to heavy sparring. 
We do not segregate classes so you never know what the age/rank dynamic will be. This can dictate the makeup of a class.


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## dvcochran (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> i have been training for about 8 years, i was not taught how to teach i decided i wanted a school so i am trying to figure it all out, which is why im asking for some help here.


That is a tough road to sled. I sincerely hope you figure it out. The Martial Arts as a whole need as many quality schools out there as possible.
You are young and I applaud your willingness to open a Dojang from what sounds like scratch. You are admittedly untrained. Do you think you would benefit from a business leadership type class? Some of them are pretty cheesy but there are many very good foundational ideas and practices to be learned from a good leadership class.
Make a list of all the pros and cons you currently have. Look at it from every perspective you can dream of and ask as many people in your circle that you can for input. Then weigh each one; figure out the ones that are most important or impacting (the good and the bad)and which ones can go to the back burner for a while. Write down an honest reason for each (good and bad)and a rough draft idea of how they can be resolved. NEVER look at the whole list as something you have to fix all at the same time. That will overwhelm anyone and be very discouraging. Pick what is most pressing, this is likely NOT the one you want to fix first. Look at the list and see if any other items are dependent and are either a hinderance to the highest priority or can be resolved at the same time.
In short make a plan, stick to the plan.

Have you ever written out a course curriculum for your school? This is very, very helpful you both you and your students.

Do you still have a connection to your previous instructor/system? If so, there should be resources there to pull from.


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2019)

falcon said:


> i have been training for about 8 years, i was not taught how to teach i decided i wanted a school so i am trying to figure it all out, which is why im asking for some help here.



I know, brother, just trying to figure out the best way to help you.

The first year or two in a new dojo can be trying. Hang in there.


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## jobo (Oct 27, 2019)

falcon said:


> i have been training for about 8 years, i was not taught how to teach i decided i wanted a school so i am trying to figure it all out, which is why im asking for some help he re.


 hmm, the easy answer is get better  students,  various sports  academies would just tell them they are hopeless and send them on their  way. 

if your being altruistic, then you need to look at added benefit of your class, rather than expect them to ever be any good . you could perhaps start by dropping the focus on ma, and analyse what basic physical abilities they are lacking and then do exercises to build balance, co ordination concentration or what ever, but what ever you do make it fun and dont spend all your time correcting them, they will just switch off, which may be the issue with the student you mentioned then when they have addition skills, tie that back to ma. they will at least get life long value out of your gym class, even if they can never manage a kata


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## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2019)

jobo said:


> hmm, the easy answer is get better students, various sports academies would just tell them they are hopeless and send them on their way.
> 
> if your being altruistic, then you need to look at added benefit of your class, rather than expect them to ever be any good .


100% Disagree!!
This goes against every aspect of the Do that all MA emphasize. I Never give up an anyone. They can find their best with help. My best, your best, and their best will always be different. Even the most physically or mentally challenged can work within the confines of any program. That is the challenge for the instructor. Some can meet this challenge, some simply cannot. 



jobo said:


> analyse what basic physical abilities they are lacking and then do exercises to build balance, co ordination concentration or what ever, but what ever you do make it fun and dont spend all your time correcting them, they will just switch off, which may be the issue with the student you mentioned then when they have addition skills, tie that back to ma. they will at least get life long value out of your gym class, even if they can never manage a kata


100% Agree!! That should be a fundamental component of every class.


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## jobo (Oct 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> 100% Disagree!!
> This goes against every aspect of the Do that all MA emphasize. I Never give up an anyone. They can find their best with help. My best, your best, and their best will always be different. Even the most physically or mentally challenged can work within the confines of any program. That is the challenge for the instructor. Some can meet this challenge, some simply cannot.
> 
> 
> 100% Agree!! That should be a fundamental component of every class.


what are you disagreeing with ,? that a soccer academy  will dispense with all but the most gifted of students very quickly, or that he needs to fully engage his students in the activities and be conscious of their limitation and yes to drop his expectations ot not so gifted students and look to add benifit to their abilities rather than obsessing over meaningless nonsense like kata and stances.

they will grow in to well rounded adults with out ever mastering either, so are of no real value beyond norrowassessment criteria.


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## Headhunter (Oct 27, 2019)

falcon said:


> I am i 2nd degree recommended black belt, 23
> for the class we bow in then we do warmups we usely do either ladder drills, excersizes (pushups, situps, squats),  side shuffle, jogging, grape vine up and down the floor, on days we go up and down the floor we will do kicks across the floor or stance work across the floor. After that we we will kick the bags, shields, or paddles i usely try to keep them doing the same kind of kick like different side kicks, different round kicks and things like that. After that we might do forms depending on the day. i know the way i run class needs improvement and its something i am in the process of changing, and thats also why im asking for help.
> we dont do a month to month contract. we have a sign up offer for 6 weeks for $49 and you get a free uniform. we dont have a black belt program cause we only have a few blackbelts at my school and they are all my family that i got my black belt with.
> i advertise on facebook mostly


Since your teaching mainly kids you need to make the classes more fun. Frankly most kids don't want to be in martial arts, but they start because mummy and daddy make them go there to give them a break for an hour or so. They don't care about how good their stances are mostly. Yeah of course there'll be some who do but the majority couldn't care less. You need to play games with them. Make them martial art specific if you can if not just give them something that lets them run around and burn off energy. 

Doing stance work up and down the hall? Tbh that's going to bore kids these days to death. Get them running around with their hands uo and having to dodge soft stuff thrown at them, get them doing tug of war with an old belt to work on stability in stances. 

Maybe back in the 70s and 80s the up and down the class stuff was fine but these days kids don't want that. It's boring to them but also don't make it a boot camp. Don't be making them do 20 press ups because most kids can't even do 5. Don't be all sergeant major on them. Be relaxed have a laugh, make fun of yourself a bit have them hit you and pretend to fall over. That stuff that engages with kids,

Because honestly over half those kids will quit within a few years anyway. Yes you'll get some who stick at it. But when those kids get to teenage years there'll be more interested in partying meeting girls or boys dating etc or be stressed about exams that karate will be dropped quick. So don't worry about them becoming the next Bruce Lee. Just get them learning of course but let them have fun mainly. When they get to teenage years yeah then step up the intensity but for now focus on the fun


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## dvcochran (Oct 27, 2019)

jobo said:


> what are you disagreeing with ,? that a soccer academy  will dispense with all but the most gifted of students very quickly, or that he needs to fully engage his students in the activities and be conscious of their limitation and yes to drop his expectations ot not so gifted students and look to add benifit to their abilities rather than obsessing over meaningless nonsense like kata and stances.
> 
> they will grow in to well rounded adults with out ever mastering either, so are of no real value beyond norrowassessment criteria.


I am disagreeing with putting the average MA dojo/dojang in the same category as a tournament/for profit sports team/academy. There are vast differences, primarily that most MA programs are more inclusive. That is a good thing. The challenge is on the program to be broad enough, and good enough to offer things that keep people of all levels interested and engaged. That is a systemic issue. 

I agree, that it sounds like the OP's program has holes, but telling a struggling school to kick students out because they do not meet some arbitrary standard the First time the walk in the door is just wrong.


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## Buka (Oct 27, 2019)

@Headhunter makes a great point in his post above. If kids are having fun in class....they're going to want to come to class. When other kids hear they're having fun....


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## Headhunter (Oct 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am disagreeing with putting the average MA dojo/dojang in the same category as a tournament/for profit sports team/academy. There are vast differences, primarily that most MA programs are more inclusive. That is a good thing. The challenge is on the program to be broad enough, and good enough to offer things that keep people of all levels interested and engaged. That is a systemic issue.
> 
> I agree, that it sounds like the OP's program has holes, but telling a struggling school to kick students out because they do not meet some arbitrary standard the First time the walk in the door is just wrong.


Yeah I mean...you're trying to establish a school and make some cash and jobos great idea is....kick out students who aren't prodigies so have less students and make less money because of it ....yeah great business plan...that's totally how you build a martial art school


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## jobo (Oct 27, 2019)

o


dvcochran said:


> I am disagreeing with putting the average MA dojo/dojang in the same category as a tournament/for profit sports team/academy. There are vast differences, primarily that most MA programs are more inclusive. That is a good thing. The challenge is on the program to be broad enough, and good enough to offer things that keep people of all levels interested and engaged. That is a systemic issue.
> 
> I agree, that it sounds like the OP's program has holes, but telling a struggling school to kick students out because they do not meet some arbitrary standard the First time the walk in the door is just wrong.


There was a certain amount of irony in that remark, i'm certainly not telling him to kick people out, just pointing out that if he wants high performing students he needs to be selective about getting students who can perform to a high level, 

My last guitar teacher was so convinced in his abilities he was certain he would have me playing fluently in 3 months, he was wrong. rubbish in, rubbish out


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## WaterGal (Oct 27, 2019)

One thing that was helpful for us was learning about a curriculum style called a _rotating curriculum_. This is a system that allows everyone in a class to work on the same material at the same time, so class can be more focused and organized, and people get more attention to their material.

What we did was we broke our color belt classes down into beginner, intermediate, and advanced level classes. In each level, students are all learning the same form, kicks, sparring drills, basic techniques, etc for a few months. Then we have a test. Everyone who tests and passes gets a new belt. Everyone who doesn't, they stay the same rank. Then the whole class moves on to learning another form and set of material. Once they've tested 3 times, they can move up to the next level of classes.

With this system, students might learn the material "in the wrong order" - but how much does "the order" really matter? If they learn Taegeuk 5, then 3, then 4 - they've still learned all three forms.

You can also break your monthly class schedule down into different themed weeks. Some places, for example, will alternate between "A week" and "B week", where one week they might focus on forms and self-defense techniques, and the next week they do kicks and sparring. That kind of planning helps to make sure that students will see all the different elements of your curriculum on a regular basis.


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## falcon (Oct 27, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> One thing that was helpful for us was learning about a curriculum style called a _rotating curriculum_. This is a system that allows everyone in a class to work on the same material at the same time, so class can be more focused and organized, and people get more attention to their material.
> 
> What we did was we broke our color belt classes down into beginner, intermediate, and advanced level classes. In each level, students are all learning the same form, kicks, sparring drills, basic techniques, etc for a few months. Then we have a test. Everyone who tests and passes gets a new belt. Everyone who doesn't, they stay the same rank. Then the whole class moves on to learning another form and set of material. Once they've tested 3 times, they can move up to the next level of classes.
> 
> ...


i try to rotate like that to keep them interested but some times i dont cause they end up struggling a lot with something so i focus on that. but i dont have enough students to break them up right now.


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## falcon (Oct 27, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Since your teaching mainly kids you need to make the classes more fun. Frankly most kids don't want to be in martial arts, but they start because mummy and daddy make them go there to give them a break for an hour or so. They don't care about how good their stances are mostly. Yeah of course there'll be some who do but the majority couldn't care less. You need to play games with them. Make them martial art specific if you can if not just give them something that lets them run around and burn off energy.
> 
> Doing stance work up and down the hall? Tbh that's going to bore kids these days to death. Get them running around with their hands uo and having to dodge soft stuff thrown at them, get them doing tug of war with an old belt to work on stability in stances.
> 
> ...


i usely try to play a game at the end of class to keep them entertained, but not so much in class except for my 4-7 year old class thats just games that are MA related. should i be doing ,ore in the older kids class or is something at the end good enough.


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## falcon (Oct 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Have you ever written out a course curriculum for your school? This is very, very helpful you both you and your students.
> 
> Do you still have a connection to your previous instructor/system? If so, there should be resources there to pull from.


i am working on trying to create a curriculum and could really use some help from people if any on wants to help. I would honestly also really like to see someone elses curriculum if they are willing to let me see it, cause i honestly dont feel like i now what im doing and would like to benefit from other people that have more knowledge then me.

and i still have connections with my old dojang and i go through them to test to get promoted but last time classes where brought up and what to do he said just do all the things you did in class. that was awhile ago so i want to ask him again and drive down to talk about things, but hes 3 hours away so its hard to find the time to do that.


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## falcon (Oct 27, 2019)

and thanks for everyone's help so far


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 28, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am working on trying to create a curriculum and could really use some help from people if any on wants to help..




PM Me with your e-mail and I will send my rank requirement sheets.   You can use that as an idea for a curriculum breakdown.   The day of sign up they get the first sheet and immediately after any promotion they get the new one.  Several weeks before a test we remind after each class to go home, look at their sheet and ask at the next class about anything they don't understand or need help with.   This shifts responsibility to them.   If they miss some classes where  stuff was covered they can't say at a test "I didn't learn that"   because the response is "didn't you check your sheet?"


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 28, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> With this system, students might learn the material "in the wrong order" - but how much does "the order" really matter? .


In the Chang Hon System, it matters a lot, especially at the color belt levels. System is progressive.   Quarter turns only - one direction, Quarter and Half, both directions, three quarter turns,    Other progression - No Kicks, Front Kicks, Side Kicks, etc.


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## dvcochran (Oct 28, 2019)

falcon said:


> i try to rotate like that to keep them interested but some times i dont cause they end up struggling a lot with something so i focus on that. but i dont have enough students to break them up right now.


A very, very important thing for an instructor to learn is that most people cannot learn something the first time they are shown it. And continuing to focus on a specific in the moment often just turns someone's brain to goo. Don't expect perfection the 1st, 2nd, 3rd time they are shown a technique. Fix One small thing and then let the repetition continue.
For example: Let's say it is a 10 year old new student. Show them the particulars of a front stance. Almost certainly they are not going to get everything. Decide (in you own mind) what is most elemental and pick one or two things to correct. Then let them work.  
Remember this is a marathon, not a sprint. They have time to fix everything.
On a side note, if you are the only instructor this should be much easier.


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## Buka (Oct 28, 2019)

Falcon, if you don’t take up Mister Weiss’s offer, you be crazy.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 29, 2019)

A lot of the postings here have dealt with the mechanics.  Mixing things up each class is good:  Some basics, grab releases, choosing teams for some competition (duck walk races, for example - sounds silly, but that was old school training for the hips, and the kids will love it - "quack quack".)  bag work, 1 or 2 step sparring.  Variety.  Kids bore easily.  Sometimes, teachers, too.

   The other part of it is more important in the long run.  Kids not only need discipline, they want it.  They not only need to have expectations set, they want it.  Then, when they meet realistic, but challenging, expectations, and are recognized for it, it gives them (this goes for adults, too) self-satisfaction and positive reinforcement.  This motivates them for future accomplishments.  And develops aa desire to please their authority figure - the instructor.

   Everyone should have a little fun in class.  But I believe the above paragraph is the key.  I have seen all too often, kids with intermediate belts that can barely do a block without losing balance as their stance is so bad.  Their front kicks, ax and side kicks all look the same.  It is so dismaying to me - I can't even continue the list.  It is due to the instructor simply not instructing, not setting expectations.  If you don't expect much, you won't get much.

   Set the bar higher, treat the kids right and they won't disappoint.  And, you'll be teaching them more than kick-punch.  That's what true martial arts is all about.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

Buka said:


> Falcon, if you don’t take up Mister Weiss’s offer, you be crazy.


i took it and it was greatly appreciated i will look over it has i refine mine


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> A lot of the postings here have dealt with the mechanics.  Mixing things up each class is good:  Some basics, grab releases, choosing teams for some competition (duck walk races, for example - sounds silly, but that was old school training for the hips, and the kids will love it - "quack quack".)  bag work, 1 or 2 step sparring.  Variety.  Kids bore easily.  Sometimes, teachers, too.
> 
> The other part of it is more important in the long run.  Kids not only need discipline, they want it.  They not only need to have expectations set, they want it.  Then, when they meet realistic, but challenging, expectations, and are recognized for it, it gives them (this goes for adults, too) self-satisfaction and positive reinforcement.  This motivates them for future accomplishments.  And develops aa desire to please their authority figure - the instructor.
> 
> ...


i try to make it challenging but i usely just get a bunch of whining and complaining saying its to hard or i hurt from this so i cant do and when i tell them there okay they just get in a bad mood. so how to a raise my bar without having those issues, cause i personally want to raise my expectations but i just not sure how when im already getting complaints.


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> i usely try to play a game at the end of class to keep them entertained, but not so much in class except for my 4-7 year old class thats just games that are MA related. should i be doing ,ore in the older kids class or is something at the end good enough.


your making a false distinction,  ma is a game, it's all a game, the issue is are they perceiving it as such or are then considering as work they need to get through before they can have fun.  kids and adults learn well, perhaps best during play that engages them.

as above, you have kids with different innate abilities who will because of factors out of your control be at vastly different stages of development, despite being close in age, doing games that increase there physical capabilities, whilst being fun, is far more important than a totally being good at ma, but they wont be good at ma unless or until they develop those skills, so every thing is ma related


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## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> i try to make it challenging but i usely just get a bunch of whining and complaining saying its to hard or i hurt from this so i cant do and when i tell them there okay they just get in a bad mood. so how to a raise my bar without having those issues, cause i personally want to raise my expectations but i just not sure how when im already getting complaints.


Expectations and complaints are mutually inclusive. It goes with the territory. But in the scheme of setting expectations, anticipating that people are going to complain is only going to get in the way. 
One suggestion is to make sure when you vocalize your expectations, they themselves are coming across as a whining complaint.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 29, 2019)

2 more tips for kids. 
1. I like to have them do stuff to burn off energy initially . It then seems they settle down  a little for more detailed stuff. 
2. They like to hit stuff as opposed to just kicking/ punching/ blocking air.   Have some good shields / targets for this.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> 2. They like to hit stuff as opposed to just kicking/ punching/ blocking air.   Have some good shields / targets for this.



Kids? I'd much rather work on a target than the air, too.


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## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> 2 more tips for kids.
> 1. I like to have them do stuff to burn off energy initially . It then seems they settle down  a little for more detailed stuff.
> 2. They like to hit stuff as opposed to just kicking/ punching/ blocking air.   Have some good shields / targets for this.


Agree. I think that is true for people of all ages.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> i try to make it challenging but i usely just get a bunch of whining and complaining saying its to hard or i hurt from this so i cant do and when i tell them there okay they just get in a bad mood. so how to a raise my bar without having those issues, cause i personally want to raise my expectations but i just not sure how when im already getting complaints.



Two quotes for you:  "You don't have to like it - you just have to do it." (Navy SEALS mantra); "We don't do things because they are easy, we do things because they are hard."  (John F. Kennedy re: expectation of moon landing).  These values must be encouraged in age appropriate ways. 

Are you setting the bar high enough for yourself?  You are not a 3rd grade elementary school teacher (mine was Miss Seashore, my first crush, but I diverge.)   You are a martial art teacher.  Not to sound harsh, but stop "whining and complaining."

Take charge!  Develop a culture of accomplishment among your kids.  Set the example.  Miss Seashore was cute and soft and sweet and comforting - she would have made a poor martial art instructor.


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> Two quotes for you:  "You don't have to like it - you just have to do it." (Navy SEALS mantra); "We don't do things because they are easy, we do things because they are hard."  (John F. Kennedy re: expectation of moon landing).  These values must be encouraged in age appropriate ways.
> 
> Are you setting the bar high enough for yourself?  You are not a 3rd grade elementary school teacher (mine was Miss Seashore, my first crush, but I diverge.)   You are a martial art teacher.  Not to sound harsh, but stop "whining and complaining."
> 
> Take charge!  Develop a culture of accomplishment among your kids.  Set the example.  Miss Seashore was cute and soft and sweet and comforting - she would have made a poor martial art instructor.


 what a complete load of tosh, telling people things are difficult is no way to motivate anyone let alone kids, navy  seals really. if its hard its because they are not fit enough, telling people getting fit is difficult is a sure way to stop the getting fit, getting fit is easy, do something you enjoy and you dont even notice

jfk never did anything physically ' hard' in his life. do you think he spent his later teenage years moving bricks on a building site


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## pdg (Oct 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> what a complete load of tosh, telling people things are difficult is no way to motivate anyone let alone kids, navy  seals really. if its hard its because they are not fit enough, telling people getting fit is difficult is a sure way to stop the getting fit, getting fit is easy, do something you enjoy and you dont even notice
> 
> jfk never did anything physically ' hard' in his life. do you think he spent his later teenage years moving bricks on a building site



I just disagreed and disliked this post before I finally managed to hit "agree"...

Bloody ads moving about and making a shifting target.


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## Buka (Oct 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> jfk never did anything physically ' hard' in his life. do you think he spent his later teenage years moving bricks on a building site



Never did anything physically hard in his life?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in...tenant-kennedy-is-instrumental-in-saving-crew

Yeah, that was a walk in the park.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> Are you setting the bar high enough for yourself? You are not a 3rd grade elementary school teacher (mine was Miss Seashore, my first crush, but I diverge.) You are a martial art teacher. Not to sound harsh, but stop "whining and complaining."


i not whining and complaining i am asking for help on how to apply advice some one gave me cause i am having issues in my class with that.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> 2. They like to hit stuff as opposed to just kicking/ punching/ blocking air. Have some good shields / targets for this.


 i rarely have any of my students hit or punch there air other then forms, i do have them do it just not a lot cause i personally see some value for work on technique but not that much cause you can work on your technique well hitting a bag to so i dont do alot of stuff in the air except the forms.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> One suggestion is to make sure when you vocalize your expectations, they themselves are coming across as a whining complaint.


 not sure what you mean by that


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> i dont do alot of stuff in the air except the forms.


The form training is to hit into the thin air. The class environment should be spent in partner training instead.

Examples of partner training.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> , telling people things are difficult is no way to motivate anyone let alone kids


    No one accomplishes anything worthwhile by avoiding things that are difficult or just distasteful for us.  Part of growing up is learning that many things ARE difficult, then preparing themselves to overcome that.  That's what teachers and parents are for.  For most of us, getting A's or B's in school is difficult, relationships are difficult, public speaking is difficult or distasteful, cleaning our room is difficult or  distasteful.  Setting someone out with them thinking everything is a cakewalk is setting them up for failure.  Failure is not motivating for kids.

    What motivates kids and adults is learning they CAN overcome difficulties and meet challenges.  This is called "confidence."  The key is starting with small ones, and gradually moving to bigger ones, as the student progresses.  Personally, when I apply myself and work hard and accomplish something, overcoming some challenge, I feel good.  Feel good about myself.  So good, that I want to do it again, maybe something a little more difficult and challenging next time.


.


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## jobo (Oct 29, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> No one accomplishes anything worthwhile by avoiding things that are difficult or just distasteful for us.  Part of growing up is learning that many things ARE difficult, then preparing themselves to overcome that.  That's what teachers and parents are for.  For most of us, getting A's or B's in school is difficult, relationships are difficult, public speaking is difficult or distasteful, cleaning our room is difficult or  distasteful.  Setting someone out with them thinking everything is a cakewalk is setting them up for failure.  Failure is not motivating for kids.
> 
> What motivates kids and adults is learning they CAN overcome difficulties and meet challenges.  This is called "confidence."  The key is starting with small ones, and gradually moving to bigger ones, as the student progresses.  Personally, when I apply myself and work hard and accomplish something, overcoming some challenge, I feel good.  Feel good about myself.  So good, that I want to do it again, maybe something a little more difficult and challenging next time.
> 
> ...


very few people achieve anything worth while, there's only so many nobel prizes a year. the rest just mudle by n0ot achieving very much at all, getting a karate black belt for instances is not a significant achievement, very nearly anyone can do it.

which gets me to my main point, giving confidence is getting people to believe that everything is easy, thinking something is difficult is the exact opposite of confidence, because everything is easy or doesn't matter. public speaking is very very easy if you believe you can do it. you just open your mouth and words come out, why would you tell someone its difficult /? how is that supposed to help them ?


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## dvcochran (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> not sure what you mean by that


That should have said NOT come across as a whining complaint.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

falcon said:


> i do sparring and self defense in the classes, one step drills, i just laid out the average class cause they arent done as much. what would you recomend i do every class or another way of putting it what is your average class look like?


As an adult, I always loved places that had sparring most classes, or optional sparring at the end of each class (after class times up, we can hang around and spar, often with the instructor partaking or watching).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> sparring at the end of each class


In my class, we usually spar in the beginning of the class (as warm up).

- All students are divided into 2 groups.
- One ground make a big outside circle. One group make a small inside circle.
- The person in the inside circle spars with the person in the outside circle.
- After 1 minute, the inside circle rotate clockwise. Each inside circle person then have a new sparring partner.

The group sparring usually take about 10 minutes. Each student has sparred with 10 different opponent's.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> which gets me to my main point, giving confidence is getting people to believe that everything is easy, thinking something is difficult is the exact opposite of confidence, because everything is easy or doesn't matter. public speaking is very very easy if you believe you can do it. you just open your mouth and words come out, why would you tell someone its difficult /? how is that supposed to help them ?


confidence to me means that knowing something is going to be difficult put also knowing that it you work at it enough you can achieve it.
also i would not say public speaking is easy for some it definitely is but for others like me, i have anxiety an about have a break down every time im in front of people. so every finds different things easy for some getting a black belt is easy for others its extremely difficult. everyone is at different points in there life.


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## falcon (Oct 29, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> As an adult, I always loved places that had sparring most classes, or optional sparring at the end of each class (after class times up, we can hang around and spar, often with the instructor partaking or watching).


i plan on doing thaat but i need adults to sign up first, i wish my dojang did that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 29, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In my class, we usually spar in the beginning of the class (as warm up).
> 
> - All students are divided into 2 groups.
> - One ground make a big outside circle. One group make a small inside circle.
> ...


Before class works just as well (although I prefer more than 10 minutes, but I'm also greedy). My only concern would be sparring without warming up could result in pulling something. Doing it afterwards also lets you work on what you were practicing in class, as some reinforcement for it.


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## jobo (Oct 30, 2019)

falcon said:


> confidence to me means that knowing something is going to be difficult put also knowing that it you work at it enough you can achieve it.
> also i would not say public speaking is easy for some it definitely is but for others like me, i have anxiety an about have a break down every time im in front of people. so every finds different things easy for some getting a black belt is easy for others its extremely difficult. everyone is at different points in there life.


public speaking is indeed easy, that you have a problem that makes it difficult for you doesn5 change that, your the difficulty, if you had more confidence it would be easy for you as well. if you wished to address the issue, then building up your confidence in your public speaking ability would be a straight forward process, join a debating club or an amature dramatic society and slowly expose yourself to it. that's it, that somethings take time to achieve doesn't equate to them being difficult to achieve. something take time. I've done public speaking training for people and seen them go from quivering wrecks to to not that bad at all, in three exposures

everything is just a series of easy steps


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## dvcochran (Oct 30, 2019)

falcon said:


> confidence to me means that knowing something is going to be difficult put also knowing that it you work at it enough you can achieve it.
> also i would not say public speaking is easy for some it definitely is but for others like me, i have anxiety an about have a break down every time im in front of people. so every finds different things easy for some getting a black belt is easy for others its extremely difficult. everyone is at different points in there life.


The leadership classes I mentioned can help you with public speaking. I am sure you can find one specifically tailored to speaking.


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## WaterGal (Oct 30, 2019)

falcon said:


> i try to rotate like that to keep them interested but some times i dont cause they end up struggling a lot with something so i focus on that. but i dont have enough students to break them up right now.



They might not all get it the first time they see it. That's totally fine. Probably half/two-thirds of our kids actually test each time we have a test, and the others continue on at the same level until we get back to that part of the curriculum. If they're struggling with a certain set of kicks or a certain form and just aren't getting this one, after a couple of months they can move on and try a different one and come back to it later. This at least keeps them from the frustration of basically bashing their head against the proverbial wall over and over again until they can make their body do a proper roundhouse kick, or whatever it is.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i rarely have any of my students hit or punch there air ............... i personally see some value for work on technique .............................


Exactly - However sometimes I will see one of my assistants trying to work too long on technique which can lead to boredom.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> confidence to me means that knowing something is going to be difficult put also knowing that it you work at it enough you can achieve it.
> also i would not say public speaking is easy for some it definitely is but for others like me, i have anxiety an about have a break down every time im in front of people. so every finds different things easy for some getting a black belt is easy for others its extremely difficult. everyone is at different points in there life.



An important part of teaching is communication skill. You should work on this with your posting. It's difficult to understand the nuances of your posts in the way you write sentences with little thought to punctuation. Working on this can also help your public speaking skills a great deal. _AND_ your teaching of Martial Arts. Honest.


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## dvcochran (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> confidence to me means that knowing something is going to be difficult put also knowing that it you work at it enough you can achieve it.
> also i would not say public speaking is easy for some it definitely is but for others like me, i have anxiety an about have a break down every time im in front of people. so every finds different things easy for some getting a black belt is easy for others its extremely difficult. everyone is at different points in there life.


I can appreciate some of what you say. We all have our own weakness and issues to improve upon. 
That said, you have chosen to take the helm of leadership. With this comes great responsibility. It is not about not "showing weakness", it is about doing a good job in spite of them. Respectfully, a tenured Black Belt who owns a Dojang/Dojo should be more than able to handle anxiety (something we all get from time to time)and not let it spill over into the classroom. 
It sounds like you are overwhelmed with the burden of the responsibilities of Owning/Running a Dojang/Dojo. They are Not something to be taken lightly and a plan must be in place that tries to cover every contingency. A lot of people who are very good Martial Art students are not able to make the to Owning/Running a MA Dojang/Dojo. I have also seen very good MA instructors that could not handle the mantle of ownership. They are two distinctly different things. 

So, how do you fix this? I outlined some ideas in previous post but lets bounce some other ideas around.
Let's establish a background to better understand how you got to where you are.

You are young (23 I think). Not a bad thing. Maturity can be a big issue. 

How many years of MA experience do you have? Was this all training or were you teaching for part of this time?
How did you become the owner of a MA dojang/dojo? A big question that I hope you go into great detail about.

Is this your only source of income? Is this a For profit venture? Is this more of a passing hobby? How committed to this venture are you? 

What resources do you have? Are you totally independent (a sole proprietorship)? Are you associated with any other school/system/organization?

Let's work through these questions and go from there. There are a lot of passionate people here on the forum who have a strong desire to help you and we all want to see you succeed. This is a great knowledge base. I hope you stay in touch and stay invested.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I can appreciate some of what you say. We all have our own weakness and issues to improve upon.
> That said, you have chosen to take the helm of leadership. With this comes great responsibility. It is not about not "showing weakness", it is about doing a good job in spite of them. Respectfully, a tenured Black Belt who owns a Dojang/Dojo should be more than able to handle anxiety (something we all get from time to time)and not let it spill over into the classroom.
> It sounds like you are overwhelmed with the burden of the responsibilities of Owning/Running a Dojang/Dojo. They are Not something to be taken lightly and a plan must be in place that tries to cover every contingency. A lot of people who are very good Martial Art students are not able to make the to Owning/Running a MA Dojang/Dojo. I have also seen very good MA instructors that could not handle the mantle of ownership. They are two distinctly different things.
> 
> ...


okay to start i can get in front of people its just hard teaching i class isnt to bad, but the main thing is more giving speeches to a group of people i can do it its just hard and not something i enjoy.

      for experience its something around 8 years. with 5 years of training under some one and about 2.5 years of teaching and 2.5 years of bjj training, which i started when i opened my tkd school.

      most of my family started tkd together and 3 of us got our black belts together, one a few years later. so we decided that we wanted to open a school when we moved back to our hometown. over the years it has turned into me being the head instructor since i am the most passionate about it.

      i have been working a full time job throughout the process of running the school, but i recently lost it so right know i am living of of my savings cause my gym only pays its on bills, i am trying to get this to be my only source of income cause i would like to do this full time, and also get into some mma fighting. I would say I am extremely passionate about it martial arts has helped me with a lot a i want to be able to share it with other people.

      I am associated with an organization called AMA american masters association. its a association that my instructor as well has some of his friends from a few others arts created. i can give more detail on this if you want and if its necessary.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Buka said:


> An important part of teaching is communication skill. You should work on this with your posting. It's difficult to understand the nuances of your posts in the way you write sentences with little thought to punctuation. Working on this can also help your public speaking skills a great deal. _AND_ your teaching of Martial Arts. Honest.


I know its something i have to work on, cause I personally suck at it. I will try to put more thought in the punctuation so people can understand me better. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.


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## dvcochran (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> okay to start i can get in front of people its just hard teaching i class isnt to bad, but the main thing is more giving speeches to a group of people i can do it its just hard and not something i enjoy.
> 
> for experience its something around 8 years. with 5 years of training under some one and about 2.5 years of teaching and 2.5 years of bjj training, which i started when i opened my tkd school.
> 
> ...


If you are supporting yourself and/or Especially a family it is a very tall order. It took us about 3 years to get a solid momentum and consistently making a profit. And we own our building. I have not heard anything from you about a business plan, advertising, P&L, etc...
I have been in similar shoes. Me and another student started our school after our instructor bailed on teaching classes. We were able to take nearly the whole student base with us so we had a very good start. Still, it was not lean pickings, it was no pickings for quite some time. After a couple of years my partner moved out of state. We were just starting to make a Little money and I had to decide how vested I really was. I had a very good job and was very, very into competing. Losing my main 'assistant' instructor was a big hit. Fortunately we had three adults who were close to getting their BB that were very vested in the school. I started paying them (a small amount) for each class they taught. Soon after, the school exploded and we opened another location. I had to make some hard decisions and had to sacrifice a lot of time that I did not have to learn how to run a business. I had to give up competing and focus on how to make our dojang the best it could be; yes that included how to make it the most profitable it could be without any sacrifices.
This is not something to do just because it is really cool to say "I own a Dojang". The failure rate for those schools is incredibly high.
I no longer own the schools (the business) but still own both buildings and actively workout and help in the background. The Martial Arts have Never been my only source of income, but like you mentioned they are such an integral part of my life.
I hear the ideals of a young person who is healthy and fit; thinking they will run a full time dojang and be an amateur/professional fighter. Without a substantial base of students and a strong group of senior belts/leaders (that would be adults) it is beyond difficult. You mentioned family; are they adults and part of the teaching structure?
What is your teaching model?
Who, what, when do you teach?
Who helps out?
Do you own or rent?
Who does all the other stuff (cleaning, advertising, paying bills, collecting, etc...)?
Don't half-*** this. Get in or get out. Hitting up a forum is a logical choice but I would not even call it a start. More of a casual reference, even given the vast amount of knowledge here. You have to seek and find, and most importantly do the work.
I found an AMA on Facebook. That is not the support mechanism you need. That appears to be an "official" certificate source, not a means of experience, support and tools you need.
Research seminars and special or open classes in your area. Soak them up like a sponge. Make introductions and relationships. Vitally important.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i not whining and complaining i am asking for help on how to apply advice some one gave me cause i am having issues in my class with that.


I appreciate that you have recognized a problem and are attempting to find a solution.  You sound a little inexperienced - the only cure for that is more experience, and taking to heart some of the advice given in these various replies.  Care about your students, challenge them, praise them when they respond, teach with confidence and mutual respect, and remember- you are a role model.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If you are supporting yourself and/or Especially a family it is a very tall order. It took us about 3 years to get a solid momentum and consistently making a profit. And we own our building. I have not heard anything from you about a business plan, advertising, P&L, etc...
> I have been in similar shoes. Me and another student started our school after our instructor bailed on teaching classes. We were able to take nearly the whole student base with us so we had a very good start. Still, it was not lean pickings, it was no pickings for quite some time. After a couple of years my partner moved out of state. We were just starting to make a Little money and I had to decide how vested I really was. I had a very good job and was very, very into competing. Losing my main 'assistant' instructor was a big hit. Fortunately we had three adults who were close to getting their BB that were very vested in the school. I started paying them (a small amount) for each class they taught. Soon after, the school exploded and we opened another location. I had to make some hard decisions and had to sacrifice a lot of time that I did not have to learn how to run a business. I had to give up competing and focus on how to make our dojang the best it could be; yes that included how to make it the most profitable it could be without any sacrifices.
> This is not something to do just because it is really cool to say "I own a Dojang". The failure rate for those schools is incredibly high.
> I no longer own the schools (the business) but still own both buildings and actively workout and help in the background. The Martial Arts have Never been my only source of income, but like you mentioned they are such an integral part of my life.
> ...


 thanks for being willing to help. i will try to get your questions answered when i get some time to type stuff out.


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## WaterGal (Nov 1, 2019)

Falcon, I'm going to give you a piece of advice that someone on this board gave to me maybe 4 or 5 years ago after my partner and I started our school and were scratching our heads going "how do we make this thing work".

There are a bunch of Facebook groups out there for martial arts school owners/instructors/managers. Look them up and join some of them.

Now, most of them are run by someone that wants your money - either an equipment supplier (i.e. Century Martial Arts School Network), a company that makes software to help you run your school (i.e. Martial Arts Business Growth), or a professional business coach (i.e. Martial Arts Sales & Marketing). Be aware of that.

But, these groups can be a GREAT source of advice about how to run your school more professionally, how to have a better and more engaging curriculum, what other groups and resources to look into, how to market yourself, etc. They'll let you network with other school owners and get ideas from them, which can be really helpful.

I'd also recommend going on Amazon and grabbing a couple of Mike Massie's books on running a martial arts school. I found the rotating curriculum one really helpful. He has one on drills and games for classes, which I found a little remedial personally, but might give you some ideas for keeping your classes fun. I'm trying to remember which of his other books I read, lol. I'll have to look in my Kindle app.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Falcon, I'm going to give you a piece of advice that someone on this board gave to me maybe 4 or 5 years ago after my partner and I started our school and were scratching our heads going "how do we make this thing work".
> 
> There are a bunch of Facebook groups out there for martial arts school owners/instructors/managers. Look them up and join some of them.
> 
> ...


thanks do you happen to know the name of any of those groups, so i can find them a little easier. I will look into that guys books thanks


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## Balrog (Nov 5, 2019)

falcon said:


> so i was wandering if any one could give me some advice on finding drills and structuring a class.


Our classes are 40 minutes long.  This is a very generic structure for our non-sparring class:
Warm-up   5 minutes
Basic floor drills  5 minutes      This can be whatever I want to work on today: punch, block, kick, stance, combos whatever.  These are almost always techniques from the form they are doing.
Impact bag work  10 minutes   Using what we just did as the floor drill
Forms work.   15 minutes
Cool-down, stretching and announcements   5 minutes

For sparring class, I do the 5 minutes warm-up, then 5 minutes of a drill on something I want to emphasize, such as block and counter, or V-out round kick counters.  Then the rest of the class is one minute rounds, rotating between partners.

Hope this helps!


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## WaterGal (Nov 9, 2019)

falcon said:


> thanks do you happen to know the name of any of those groups, so i can find them a little easier. I will look into that guys books thanks



Well, I'd start with the ones I mentioned: 
Century Martial Arts School Network
Martial Arts Business Growth
Martial Arts Sales & Marketing

There are others, and I'm sure you'll get invited to more if you join and participate in those lol.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 11, 2019)

I am not a fan of Tiger Rock, but they are a real money maker. 
They have a very good structure for making kids like TKD.
Go to one of their schools and see how they do it, it may help.


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## dvcochran (Nov 11, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I am not a fan of Tiger Rock, but they are a real money maker.
> They have a very good structure for making kids like TKD.
> Go to one of their schools and see how they do it, it may help.


Bruce, I think that is sage advice for someone more tenured who can sort through what/how they do things that may not work in a smaller, less supported environment or a different system. If I recall, falcon does not have much support, MA or marketing related. If he/she could audit a class or get a written curriculum it could be thought provoking.
Tiger Rock is what I call a closed loop system. They do what they do and it does not overlap into other schools, styles, or the real world. That takes a great amount of work behind the scenes. I imagine quite a lot more than actual classroom instructional time.


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## theboxer (Mar 20, 2020)

Just hop onto youtube and watch a few tkd class videos and you'll have more than enough ideas for running a class.


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