# Japanese Jiu Jitsu Forum



## Grasshopper22 (Apr 13, 2012)

This forum is dedicated to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.


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## Steve (Apr 13, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> This forum is dedicated to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.


Did Huang Zongxi have access to the detailed training regimens of the Shaolin and Wudang schools?


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## frank raud (Apr 13, 2012)

Which was a larger influence on the overall direction and synthesis of Aikido,  Daito-ryu aikijutsu as taught to Ueshiba by Sokaku Takeda, or the oromote religion?


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## frank raud (Apr 13, 2012)

Why is it that the Fusen-ryu is given credit for the newaza of Kodokan Judo, even though there was newaza prior to the alleged fusen-ryu battles with the Kodokan, and there is no grappling existent today in Fusen-ryu? On the same note, if Yukio Tani's grandfather and father were both jiu jutsu instructors who happened to know a Fusen-ryu instructor, how come Yukio Tani is now credited with being a Fusen-ryu student, as opposed to the unnamed art of his family?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 13, 2012)

All of these questions could be great threads my friends.

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## lklawson (Apr 13, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> This forum is dedicated to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.


Are you a troll, a really (REALLY) bored 13 year old kid, or just a half-bubble off center?


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## pgsmith (Apr 13, 2012)

I would vote really bored 11 to 14 year old. The actions and responses are consistent with the younger Scouts that I used to work with.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> This forum is dedicated to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.



Kid, you've got all of a month training in what is most likely a highly questionable system, and you've been posting here for a few days. What on earth makes you think you can dictate what forums are for, or answer any questions that could be posted here? At your point in all this (provided you stick with us), your focus should be on asking questions and listening to the answers. Purely.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

Grasshopper22 said:


> This forum is dedicated to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.


Someones full of questions. I cant tell why, or what youre trying to do - I know what Youd say, though.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?6-Jujutsu-Judo

This Forum is dedicated to Jujutsu. If anyone wants or has wanted to ask a question about any form of Jujutsu, be it modern or antiquated, or ancient; Be it Jujutsu, Jiu Jitsu, or any other way shape or form of JJ Systems, They are, and have been, able to ask them there. They dont need an invitation.

Im still trying to be nice


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm not still trying to be nice.

Missed this earlier....



Grasshopper22 said:


> This forum is dedicated to *Traditional Japanese Jujutsu (sometimes spelled differently), *anyone who either wants to find out more, anyone who is a practitioner, a sensei or anyone who is just interested in the history of the art. Please ask and answer questions, share your thoughts and feelings, your experiences and anything else you like.



If it's a traditional Japanese Jujutsu system and it's spelled in any other way, it's most likely not a traditional system, and most likely not a Japanese one either. The only other spelling is: &#26580;&#34899;


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not still trying to be nice.



The only reason Im not being a bit heavier on it, is because He has yet to say anything especially irritating. But He has been posting alot of unusual questions. Questions He may be asking just to get replies in Threads He makes.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not still trying to be nice.
> 
> Missed this earlier....
> 
> ...


I just noticed something. Someone else may have already called it, but...

"_Traditional_ Japanese Combat Ju-Jitsu: White Belt"

That doesnt mean whats being taught is bad. It means that our OP may well just be getting in over His head in terms of discussing these things.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I just noticed something. Someone else may have already called it, but...
> 
> "_Traditional_ Japanese Combat Ju-Jitsu: White Belt"
> 
> That doesnt mean whats being taught is bad. It means that our OP may well just be getting in over His head in terms of discussing these things.



Hmm, I know what you're saying, but honestly I think that's the way it's spelled in his system...... 



Chris Parker said:


> Kid, you've got all of a month training in what is *most likely a highly questionable system*, and you've been posting here for a few days. What on earth makes you think you can dictate what forums are for, or answer any questions that could be posted here? At your point in all this (provided you stick with us), your focus should be on asking questions and listening to the answers. Purely.



I'm not going any further with this right now, though....


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## Jenna (Apr 14, 2012)

frank raud said:


> Which was a larger influence on the overall direction and synthesis of Aikido,  Daito-ryu aikijutsu as taught to Ueshiba by Sokaku Takeda, or the oromote religion?


Ah it is a grammatical trick question, yes?  There is no oromote religion, yes.. (Omoto?)  Do I get a point?  I would take chocolate instead of a point if you have chocolate .  On an Aikido / Judo related note, I would like to ask if Kyuzo Mifune had any Aiki training as I think his "gentle way" is most Aikido-looking in its execution.  And on a chocolate related note, if anyone is going to the store, PLEASE buy me a little bar 70%.  I will pay you back.  Thank you.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

Ha, my dearest J, I do believe Frank was meaning Omotokyo... which, of course, you are far more than aware of... 

I'll pick up your chocolate when I go shopping tomorrow... you're coming over to collect it, yeah?


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## Jameswhelan (Apr 14, 2012)

Two Japanese dojos in Japan run by Japanese teachers, off the jop of my head, that use the romanisation 'jujitsu':

Mr Arima's Fumon Yoshin ryu - http://blogs.dion.ne.jp/japan_jujitsu_spirit/archives/10208992.html
Mr Imai's Jodo Yoshin ryu - http://hwm6.spaaqs.ne.jp/yoshinryu/english1.html

Not the only places I've seen it in Japan.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

Interesting. I'd be very interested to hear their reasons, as the kanji is for "jutsu" (in the current Romanization) in both cases.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

I cant quite recall - Could it just be an err in Translation, due to the Japanese using, say, one Kanji for multiple English Letters and whatnot?


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 14, 2012)

Aren't the Romanizations basically phonetic spellings? If so, I'm not really suprised that there's different spellings. Is there kanji that is accepted as "jitsu" and different kanji as "jutsu"?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

Most kanji have at least two pronunciations, being kun'yomi and on'yomi. It comes from the fact that the Japanese written language is basically just copied from the Chinese written language, and applied over their own native words. As a result, the pronunciations are the way the Japanese pronounce the word the character refers to (kun'yomi, essentially "sound reading"), and the way the Japanese thought the Chinese pronounced the word (on'yomi, or "written reading"). To give you an idea, the character for "sword" is &#20992;, which is pronounced as "katana" in kun'yomi, or "to" in on'yomi. The Chinese pronunciation is "Dao". The other word for sword is &#21091;, which is pronounced as "tsurugi" in kun'yomi, or "ken" in on'yomi. The Chinese pronounce this character as "Jian". When you compare "To" to "Dao", or "Ken" to "Jian" you can see how that came about.

When it comes to &#34899;"jutsu", though, there is only the one pronunciation given (the Chinese pronunciation is "shu", by the way). So it's always "jutsu", technically speaking. There are a range of words pronounced "jitsu", including &#26085;, which means "sun", and is part of the name of Japan itself (Nippon, where the character has the pronunciation of "nichi"), but most commonly &#23455;, which means "truth".

So, to sum up, &#34899; = jutsu (practical art, techniques, technical methods); &#23455; = jitsu (truth, real, actual).


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Most kanji have at least two pronunciations, being kun'yomi and on'yomi. It comes from the fact that the Japanese written language is basically just copied from the Chinese written language, and applied over their own native words. As a result, the pronunciations are the way the Japanese pronounce the word the character refers to (kun'yomi, essentially "sound reading"), and the way the Japanese thought the Chinese pronounced the word (on'yomi, or "written reading"). To give you an idea, the character for "sword" is &#20992;, which is pronounced as "katana" in kun'yomi, or "to" in on'yomi. The Chinese pronunciation is "Dao". The other word for sword is &#21091;, which is pronounced as "tsurugi" in kun'yomi, or "ken" in on'yomi. The Chinese pronounce this character as "Jian". When you compare "To" to "Dao", or "Ken" to "Jian" you can see how that came about.
> 
> When it comes to &#34899;"jutsu", though, there is only the one pronunciation given (the Chinese pronunciation is "shu", by the way). So it's always "jutsu", technically speaking. There are a range of words pronounced "jitsu", including &#26085;, which means "sun", and is part of the name of Japan itself (Nippon, where the character has the pronunciation of "nichi"), but most commonly &#23455;, which means "truth".
> 
> So, to sum up, &#34899; = jutsu (practical art, techniques, technical methods); &#23455; = jitsu (truth, real, actual).



So... Jitsu Jutsu would actually make sense as a name for a MA.
That just made My evening I think.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2012)

You'd most likely pronounce it differently, though.... Say, mijutsu, for example (alternate pronunciation for jitsu).


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## jks9199 (Apr 14, 2012)

To clear everything up:
*Jujutsu is an old, practical, fighting art.  A parent to Judo, Aikido, and Hapkido.
Judo is a sport and a way to get in great shape, but is also very useful for self-defense.*


That's the caption or description for this forum.  Maybe Grasshopper22 meant this thread in the OP, I don't know.  But this particular forum is intended for the discussion of the various forms of judo and jujutsu.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> To clear everything up:
> *Jujutsu is an old, practical, fighting art.  A parent to Judo, Aikido, and Hapkido.
> Judo is a sport and a way to get in great shape, but is also very useful for self-defense.*
> 
> ...


Exactly My Point. Its like redundantly giving people permission to ask questions.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 14, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Exactly My Point. Its like redundantly giving people permission to ask questions.



We need permission???

Oh crap. I'm in trouble...


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## frank raud (Apr 14, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, my dearest J, I do believe Frank was meaning Omotokyo... which, of course, you are far more than aware of...
> 
> I'll pick up your chocolate when I go shopping tomorrow... you're coming over to collect it, yeah?



Thanks to both you and Jenna for the correction, vapour lock on the brain(sometimes expressed differently).


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## Jenna (Apr 14, 2012)

frank raud said:


> Thanks to both you and Jenna for the correction, vapour lock on the brain(sometimes expressed differently).


Ah no dear Frank, I am only joking with you  I had sensed you were ribbing the OP and spotted a chance to win a chocolate prize in a quiz hosted by the voices in my head..  

In truth, your question is more than understood and an extremely good question to have asked.  Personally I feel that Omoto was no natural suitor of a martial discipline and I cannot imagine how such an art would have evolved from such roots though that is not to say it would not have happened.  I think for Aikido to have taken upon itself the pacifist mantle would always have required the set of circumstances that comprised the life of O'Sensei.  Again that is speculation and but I think the influence of Omoto upon the philosophy that informs Aikikai is, as you correctly suggest, in no doubt.  Thank you for asking this question :asian:


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## lklawson (Apr 14, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> So... Jitsu Jutsu would actually make sense as a name for a MA.
> That just made My evening I think.


To make things even more confusing, or perhaps as an explanation to the confusion, in the first few years of the 20th Century, when Barton-Wright brought Tani and Uyenishi over, there was a mish mash of accepted romanizations, most commonly either Jui-Jutsu, Jui-Jitsu, Ju-Jutsu, Ju-Jitsu, and even Jiu-Jitsu which seems to have been particularly common at first.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/percy-long...s-of-self-defense/ebook/product-17487939.html
http://www.lulu.com/shop/len-lanius/american-jiu-jitsu/ebook/product-18612011.html


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## frank raud (Apr 14, 2012)

lklawson said:


> To make things even more confusing, or perhaps as an explanation to the confusion, in the first few years of the 20th Century, when Barton-Wright brought Tani and Uyenishi over, there was a mish mash of accepted romanizations, most commonly either Jui-Jutsu, Jui-Jitsu, Ju-Jutsu, Ju-Jitsu, and even Jiu-Jitsu which seems to have been particularly common at first.
> 
> http://www.lulu.com/shop/percy-long...s-of-self-defense/ebook/product-17487939.html
> http://www.lulu.com/shop/len-lanius/american-jiu-jitsu/ebook/product-18612011.html
> ...



Most of those spellings show up in Fairbairn's Scientific Self Defense, obviously no spellcheck in those days!


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