# Jeet Kune Do, eh?



## ShotoSan (Dec 8, 2004)

Ive not read all of Tao of Jeet Kune Do, written by Bruce Lee of course... but my  understanding of it, was that he did not want it to be widely practiced? That Bruce wanted it to be a forum, but not really have a school? Im a bit confused about it all... 

Can any one link me to a page with some good, correct information about Bruce?


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## Flatlander (Dec 8, 2004)

ShotoSan, welcome to Martial Talk. I would reccommend actually reading what Bruce Lee had to say in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. The problem with directing you to any website is that there is no one single real good resource for information on Lee - too many people have been far too political and slanted interpretations to fit what they think. Ideally, you would read the book, and form your own opinion. Best case scenario, you would supplement that reading with some good JKD instruction, so that you could better understand the philosophy. Whatever you choose to do, enjoy yourself, and enjoy your stay here. 

:asian:


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## ShotoSan (Dec 8, 2004)

See that is where I am confused, there is so much false information, and so many McSensai's, that it is throwing me off track. I read what Bruce wrote, and my opinion is that he would prefer to teach smaller classes in a 'unstyled' martial art. However, talking to one of my current masters, he is totaly trashing what Bruce had to say!

Its a little confusing for me right now... Thanks though.


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## Flatlander (Dec 8, 2004)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> However, talking to one of my current masters, he is totaly trashing what Bruce had to say!


In what way is what your instructor is saying not working for you?  

I think that you're right as far as Bruce would have preferred to keep the classes smallish.  I think that, after reading a few of his books, he feard that people would fail to really get the message, and instead focus upon what he was specifically doing at the time.  I think that Jeet Kune Do was supposed to be about evolution, and personal development.  There are, however, a few key and very fundamental precepts which are necessary in order for someone to be following the JKD philosophy; things such as conservation of energy, using the intercept, embracing simplicity, and remaining free from the limitation of specific styles.


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## getgoin (Dec 8, 2004)

ShotoSan said:
			
		

> However, talking to one of my current masters, he is totaly trashing what Bruce had to say!


What style does your master teach? That may have something to do with it. 

Freeing yourself from a styles limitation means to think for yourself, not to think what your instructor thinks just because he's your instructor. Within my JKD world I have come to few, if any, absolutes on my journey. The truth is different for each of us when it come to JKD, you need to find out what your truth is. That takes breaking away from the norm, going out and finding what works and what doesn't. It's not about walking into a school were someones say that this is the true, perfect or pure style of any art, whether it be JKD or something more traditional. The only true and perfect style of JKD is the one that works for you. 

I don't think many people can comment on what Bruce Lee wanted for JKD. I don't think anybody here trained with him or spoke with him while he was alive, I may be wrong though. Every opinion is just that, and opinion. People can raise their arms and shout at the top of thier lungs and say he wanted this or that, see it says that on page 29 of this book that he wasn't alive to approve of, or see it's in the Tao. 

With that said, my opinion is, I think he had the vision of a McDojo long before anyone else and he wanted no part of that.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 8, 2004)

getgoin said:
			
		

> What style does your master teach? That may have something to do with it.
> 
> Freeing yourself from a styles limitation means to think for yourself, not to think what your instructor thinks just because he's your instructor. Within my JKD world I have come to few, if any, absolutes on my journey. The truth is different for each of us when it come to JKD, you need to find out what your truth is. That takes breaking away from the norm, going out and finding what works and what doesn't. It's not about walking into a school were someones say that this is the true, perfect or pure style of any art, whether it be JKD or something more traditional. The only true and perfect style of JKD is the one that works for you.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree! There's to many fighters in the JKD world trying to say what JKD is and isn't. I use my Kempo Ju Jitsu as a "a boat to cross the river." My expanded technique along w/Jun Fan. 

A fighters attributes are a better focus than who is right. Bruce confused many with his writings and a lot of those that think they understand, don't.


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2004)

I remember reading in one of the Bruce Lee books, it was either the Tao or one of the compilation books from John Little where Bruce said that JKD was not for everyone.  He prefered smaller classes so he could help the individual as opposed to a giant group class where everyone copied the instructor.

The biggest problem I have with the "no style as style" phrase is you have beginners that have no foundation to know what is useful for themselves through training saying alot of things are worthless.  Instead of having a good foundation in something and finding what works they tend to jump from school to school and only scratch the surface or make an "art" of stuff they like without trying to make it flow into their personal style.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 9, 2004)

punisher73 said:
			
		

> I remember reading in one of the Bruce Lee books, it was either the Tao or one of the compilation books from John Little where Bruce said that JKD was not for everyone.  He prefered smaller classes so he could help the individual as opposed to a giant group class where everyone copied the instructor.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with the "no style as style" phrase is you have beginners that have no foundation to know what is useful for themselves through training saying alot of things are worthless.  Instead of having a good foundation in something and finding what works they tend to jump from school to school and only scratch the surface or make an "art" of stuff they like without trying to make it flow into their personal style.



JKD does have a foundation. It is Jun Fan Gung Fu and you will learn it if you train under a 1st or 2nd generation Bruce Lee student. The second generation student may or may not move farther away from Jun Fan BUT Jun Fan is the base from where we start.

If you take the words "literally" that Bruce said then you should be confused because he constantly contradicted himself. The only way anyone (that did not know him) could understand his writings is if everything he said had a date on it. And even then it might be confusing.

Towards the end before Bruce died he developed "the concept." But the underlying art, Jun Fan Gung Fu had already been long established.

Personally, if JKD is being taught purely conceptual with no original material then it is just a mixed martial art and the name should be changed. The world is mixed up enough about JKD, we don't need to contribute to making it worse.


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## getgoin (Dec 9, 2004)

If you study under a JFJKD person your will get a base to work from. If you study under a concept JKD instructor you most likely get a foundation to build from. With most Concept people moving towards BJJ, Kali and Muay Thai you will get foundation that cross into each other and work from there. You may not even touch JFJKD with a concept instructor.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 10, 2004)

getgoin said:
			
		

> If you study under a JFJKD person your will get a base to work from. If you study under a concept JKD instructor you most likely get a foundation to build from. With most Concept people moving towards BJJ, Kali and Muay Thai you will get foundation that cross into each other and work from there. You may not even touch JFJKD with a concept instructor.


Yes, I'm very much OK with that but there should be some kind of distinction in the name such as Joe Smiths Jeet Kune Do Concepts. If the "art" is no longer present, it is technically a new art and "in my opinion" would be better represented not having a name that leaves it "bulked in" with other arts that are so differant.

I teach "my core" which I received from my Sifu and then I add what is useful to me. My expanded art is very "conceptual." But not just JKD conceptual. My goal is for my students to be able to crossove from street to sport. Whichever they choose.

 When I teach, I teach "my core," "my expansion" and I "help" my student discover what works for them BUT staying within my system. 

All students get the same material but any student may take this same material down differant paths.


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## punisher73 (Dec 10, 2004)

> JKD does have a foundation. It is Jun Fan Gung Fu and you will learn it if you train under a 1st or 2nd generation Bruce Lee student. The second generation student may or may not move farther away from Jun Fan BUT Jun Fan is the base from where we start.



I should have made myself alot clearer and I apologize for that.  I was not referring to JKD/Jun Fan schools, either original or concept based schools of such that do have a base of techniques and strategy to draw from.  I was referring to people who read Bruce's work and then take a little TKD and then a little Judo, and then a little more, etc.  They are students for no more than 6 months in one style and then switch to something else and they call what they do JKD, without any cohesive idea to apply the various parts

I had a person visit my class one time and was telling me how great Bruce Lee was and JKD and after asking a few more questions of him found out that this is what he had done and called it JKD.  He couldn't even throw a decent punch of any kind, from any style.  Yet, he knows what should/would work in combat.


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## James Kovacich (Dec 10, 2004)

punisher73 said:
			
		

> I should have made myself alot clearer and I apologize for that.  I was not referring to JKD/Jun Fan schools, either original or concept based schools of such that do have a base of techniques and strategy to draw from.  I was referring to people who read Bruce's work and then take a little TKD and then a little Judo, and then a little more, etc.  They are students for no more than 6 months in one style and then switch to something else and they call what they do JKD, without any cohesive idea to apply the various parts
> 
> I had a person visit my class one time and was telling me how great Bruce Lee was and JKD and after asking a few more questions of him found out that this is what he had done and called it JKD.  He couldn't even throw a decent punch of any kind, from any style.  Yet, he knows what should/would work in combat.


Go to defend.net's forums their all there lol although there are some good martial artists there too. Sometimes I wonder if half of them are kids.


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## getgoin (Dec 11, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> Yes, I'm very much OK with that but there should be some kind of distinction in the name such as Joe Smiths Jeet Kune Do Concepts. If the "art" is no longer present, it is technically a new art and "in my opinion" would be better represented not having a name that leaves it "bulked in" with other arts that are so differant.
> 
> I teach "my core" which I received from my Sifu and then I add what is useful to me. My expanded art is very "conceptual." But not just JKD conceptual. My goal is for my students to be able to crossove from street to sport. Whichever they choose.
> 
> ...


Thats a good point about what to call it, I just don't agree 100%. I know I will start a shizle storm if I post what I think so I will leave it at that. Like I have said before I'm under Burton Richardson, he calls it High Performance Mixed Martial Arts (HPMMA). It is a very appropriate for the type of training that is done and the material that is presented.


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## Adept (Dec 21, 2004)

akja said:
			
		

> Personally, if JKD is being taught purely conceptual with no original material then it is just a mixed martial art and the name should be changed. The world is mixed up enough about JKD, we don't need to contribute to making it worse.


 "It's only a name..."


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## James Kovacich (Dec 21, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> "It's only a name..."


It can be only a name from "our own choosing." The confusion sets in when people "with no training" read books abd try to define it. But it is "our instructors" who set us on our path that we follow. 

My instructor is from the Oakland School but He chooses to call his system "The Tao of Gung Fu" not to be confused with any of the "conceptual no art" that is out there.

I choose not to use the name also. I get referrals for students who want JKD. I teach them Kempo Ju Jitsu and they get more than what they were seeking.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 5, 2005)

I have read almost everything published which Bruce wrote. After years of reading it carefully and comparing it to my life experiences (combat and non combat) I totally understand where Bruce was coming from. He also said that not one in 10,000 men could put his theories into full execution. This is one reason why so many try JKD and drop out after a short time. Lack of discipline and/or natural ability. Another reason for disillusionment is instructors who do not teach the hard core aspects Bruce espoused. (Training and effective techniques) They hold out and teach the basics only, or try to make JKD into a sport. It is NOT a sport, it is brutally effecient combat training, concepts which if fully internalized can enable a warrior who possesses great atttributes and natural ability to be much more effecient. Paul Vunak has done several good tapes about attributes and I highly recommend them. Meditate on these concepts you will see promoted and realize you won't fully understand them until you train in the concepts and techniques presented, and then give it lots of time and come back and review the tapes. An instructor who does teach the hard core combat techniques and core concepts relating to JKD, and has my admiration, is Tom Cruse. I have almost every tape he has produced and I hope to train with him someday.


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