# Shaolin Kempo Karate



## coldsteel87

I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


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## dianhsuhe

Go to the Kenpo/Kempo forum first off-

Then try a search and see what happens.


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## marlon

coldsteel87 said:
			
		

> I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


 
I love the shaolin kempo system.  i appeals to the practical and the artistic.  i do not think many people have knocked the style or the martial skills of GM Villari...just the busniess practices.  I think SK is inncredibly complete except i find little focus on chi training and explaination.   The movement, flow, srtike sequencing, and blending of the four ways of fighting make this art of GM Villari truly amazing...however he did not create it out of nothing...there are many roots to SK.

Respectfully,
Marlon wilson
www.shaolinkempo.ca


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## tshadowchaser

If anyone is wondering I moved the thread to the Kenpo / Kempo -General 
area because I belive this is where it should be and where it will recieve the most posts
Sheldon Bedell
MT mod


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## Hand Sword

marlon said:
			
		

> I love the shaolin kempo system. i appeals to the practical and the artistic. i do not think many people have knocked the style or the martial skills of GM Villari...just the busniess practices. I think SK is inncredibly complete except i find little focus on chi training and explaination. The movement, flow, srtike sequencing, and blending of the four ways of fighting make this art of GM Villari truly amazing...however he did not create it out of nothing...there are many roots to SK.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon wilson
> www.shaolinkempo.ca


 
I'd agree about that about Mr. Villari. Those that were there and know would concur of his legitimacy as a martial artist. I would say that it depends where you go for class. All the instructors that I had in the past were real big on chi. (to my dismay at the time)


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## CTKempo Todd

coldsteel87 said:
			
		

> I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


 
Coldsteel...
Shaolin Kempo karate is a very good system. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Part of 'your' journey and discovery will be tracing the roots back not only of GM Villari but of 'his' system as well. The katas, pinans, combinations all exisited in one way or another before Fred Villari. (yes there are exceptions but the root system to black belt was there..

Again, I have mentioned this before on this forum..this does not take anything away from GM Villari as a martial artitst. I have punched in for him and felt it personally. He has left a nasty trail of destruction in his business pratices though. Nothing that has already been said here before..

Keep studying and practicing hard.

Seeing your in CT, feel free to come for a visit.
I am in South Meriden and am a former instructor in the Villari system.
Best of luck to you.

Todd Guay
CT Kempo and Fitness
South Meriden, CT


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## shaolin ninja 4

CTKempo Todd said:


> Coldsteel...
> Shaolin Kempo karate is a very good system. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Part of 'your' journey and discovery will be tracing the roots back not only of GM Villari but of 'his' system as well. The katas, pinans, combinations all exisited in one way or another before Fred Villari. (yes there are exceptions but the root system to black belt was there..
> 
> Again, I have mentioned this before on this forum..this does not take anything away from GM Villari as a martial artitst. I have punched in for him and felt it personally. He has left a nasty trail of destruction in his business pratices though. Nothing that has already been said here before..
> 
> Keep studying and practicing hard.
> 
> Seeing your in CT, feel free to come for a visit.
> I am in South Meriden and am a former instructor in the Villari system.
> Best of luck to you.
> 
> Todd Guay
> CT Kempo and Fitness
> South Meriden, CT


 



Why did you leave Villaris?


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## Mariachi Joe

My instructor at ussd speaks very highly of GM Villari.  I've been studying Shaolin Kempo Karate for a year now and I like it.


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## 14 Kempo

I was a 2nd Dan in 1989 under the Villari system and currently hold the same rank at USSD, basically the same system with minor differences. I agree with other posts, the system is very good, definately saw a bit more realism back in the 80s and 90s with Villari than I see now, but still pretty well rounded and adaptable. Keep your mind open, see techniques and movements for what they can be, not just what they are ... be a sponge, everyone may have something to offer.

Good luck!


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## Mariachi Joe

ussd teaches the same style as Villari since both of our GM's were students of GM Villari.  There are no Villari's or Cerio's studios in Utah, otherwise I'd love to go in and check them out to see the similarities and differences.


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## dianhsuhe

In my opinion you need to "make bigger circles" Joe... See what all is out there-

I bet you would be surprised at all the info. available that is NOT in the Yellow pages


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## IRO-Bot

Mariachi Joe said:


> My instructor at ussd speaks very highly of GM Villari. I've been studying Shaolin Kempo Karate for a year now and I like it.


 
Funny.  My instructor thinks very low of Villari.


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## shaolin ninja 4

IRO-Bot said:


> Funny.  My instructor thinks very low of Villari.



My insrtuctors said some bad things but they were just 2nd degrees and had never met him. They also had old schools that they owned 100% nobody else did.

Unless it's master cleg that told you about him and even then you should take it with a grain of salt. Maybe ask your insrtuctor why charlee left him?
I would like a straight answer on this.

Remember villaris is ussd's biggest competition and you can own a dojo with them for $50,000 100%   USSD $250,000  for 50% 

I am not trying to start a war I just think you should ask your insrtuctor why he doesn't like him?

So I would try to ask someone who was there.


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## 14 Kempo

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> My insrtuctors said some bad things but they were just 2nd degrees and had never met him. They also had old schools that they owned 100% nobody else did.
> 
> Unless it's master cleg that told you about him and even then you should take it with a grain of salt. Maybe ask your insrtuctor why charlee left him?
> I would like a straight answer on this.
> 
> Remember villaris is ussd's biggest competition and you can own a dojo with them for $50,000 100% USSD $250,000 for 50%
> 
> I am not trying to start a war I just think you should ask your insrtuctor why he doesn't like him?
> 
> So I would try to ask someone who was there.


 
I agree here, although I am 2nd degree with USSD and was there during the split, it is because I took some 12 years away from Martial Arts in between. People who were actually there and stuck with MA would be at the very least 4th Dans, most are 5th and up. Think about that, it was 1988, some 18 years ago. Also, most persons that broke away with Mr. Mattera, at the time, did so because he was thier teacher and therefore they probably had limited access to Mr. Villari. Look at the list, those that stayed with Mr. Villari at the time were high ranking individuals, Mr. Bagley, Mr. Pearlswig, to name just a couple, and they were from the East Coast ... trained for the most part by Mr. Villari himself. Those that broke off, mostly western raised Nevada, California, etc ... trained by Mattera. Yep, like most would do, they stuck with thier instructor or thier instructor's teacher. I know I did at the time, I was Mr. Pearlswig, I went the direction he went for a couple years until he moved on, I only stuck for a short time with another instructor after his departure.

On the other point, good luck getting the opportunity to ask the question. I too would like to hear it. Don't you think that question has probably been asked numerous times? At this point, I would bet that we'll never get the answer directly from the source, either source.


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## Mariachi Joe

My instructor says Mattera split from Villari's was just business.  In Scott's own words" GM Villari is awesome".


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## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> My instructor says Mattera split from Villari's was just business. In Scott's own words" GM Villari is awesome".


 

He is awesome.  Honestly, if you listen to the Fred Villari side, Mattera got greedy.  If you listen to the Mattera side, Villari got greedy.  It's always going to be he said/he said.  Here's what I got from the Villari side it's that Mattera went out to the west coast to open schools and never sent Villari his money, so Villari opened up his own schools under the Fred Villari name and shortly after the USSD split happened.  Mattera sued for the USSD name and won the name.  That kind of co-insides with the Mattera story and that's that.  I'm done.


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## KempoGuy06

I study Shaolin Kempo Karate in Louisville, KY under 1st degree Johnathan Drake, who is a student under 6th degree Mr. Wright who is then a student under GM Brassard. Ive only been at it for about 6 months and just obtained my orange belt (this past saturday in fact) so I have not learned much about which system my dojo is connected to. I believe it is Villari's, but im not 100%. If anyone knows this would be cool to find out

B


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## shaolin ninja 4

KempoGuy06 said:


> I study Shaolin Kempo Karate in Louisville, KY under 1st degree Johnathan Drake, who is a student under 6th degree Mr. Wright who is then a student under GM Brassard. Ive only been at it for about 6 months and just obtained my orange belt (this past saturday in fact) so I have not learned much about which system my dojo is connected to. I believe it is Villari's, but im not 100%. If anyone knows this would be cool to find out
> 
> B


 
Master Jim puts old Villari tapes for sale on ebay.I have a couple of them good quality too.
Whats Grand master Brassard up to now?

How many schools does he have?


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## Gufbal1982

KempoGuy06 said:


> I study Shaolin Kempo Karate in Louisville, KY under 1st degree Johnathan Drake, who is a student under 6th degree Mr. Wright who is then a student under GM Brassard. Ive only been at it for about 6 months and just obtained my orange belt (this past saturday in fact) so I have not learned much about which system my dojo is connected to. I believe it is Villari's, but im not 100%. If anyone knows this would be cool to find out
> 
> B


 

If it's Joan Richart's school then it's Villari afflilated.


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## KempoGuy06

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Master Jim puts old Villari tapes for sale on ebay.I have a couple of them good quality too.
> Whats Grand master Brassard up to now?
> 
> How many schools does he have?


 
There are three schools that i know of mine in Louisville, the one my instructor goes to in Georgetown KY and GM brassards in Boston i believe. I dont know if there are more. He was in Georgetown for a seminar but i was unable to attend because of health issues


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## shaolin ninja 4

Villari's of Louisville
4160 B-D Westport Road
Louisville, KY  40207 







(502) 899-5506 

Heres Grandmaster Joan Richart's school.
She just tested with Grandmaster fred villari in april for 9th degree.


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## Mariachi Joe

Just saw some of the Villari white to black dvd's, man for a guy in his mid sixties Villari can still move pretty good.


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## marlon

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Villari's of Louisville
> 4160 B-D Westport Road
> Louisville, KY 40207
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (502) 899-5506
> 
> Heres Grandmaster Joan Richart's school.
> She just tested with Grandmaster fred villari in april for 9th degree.


 
i would love to see the form wounded tigers.or better find someone willing to teach it to a high level non Villari affiliated teacher...obviously not myself

Marlon


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## SK101

The story as told to me was Professor Mattera wanted to run West Coast Operations independently. GM Villari pointed out that studios Called Fred Villari's Self Defense Studios wouldn't seem right if there was no longer a Fred Villari. Mattera agreed and they exchanged a million dollars in a secret business deal. 

   The next day Villari held a meeting in which he announced he was firing Professor Mattera. After that lawsuits were filed using according to USSD the same money that had just exchanged hands and Professor had to borrow heavily to fight the legal battles. Things happened behind the scenes in what can be described as a business war that occassionally got out of hand. 

   In the days when I was with USSD it seemed more like an annoyance than a real problem. Things would happen such as the Villari guys picking up USSD.com and other internet names that the company would eventually need in an effort just to a make things difficult. I am sure there are Cillari stories about United doing things as well, but at the end of the day who knows. 

   An interesting story from years ago. After the FVSDS name had been sold and both companies were trying to keep the California instructors in their own camps Villari was planning a tournament to show he was still in control. United was trying to serve him with cease and desist papers, but his location was kept secret. He made the mistake of leaving a business card with a note on a good looking women's windshield saying he was a movie producer named Fred Villari who had a role that would be perfect for her. Unfortunately she had a roommate who had a boyfriend who was a USSD instructor. They talked her into calling and pretending to be nervous about setting up a date with him. She agreed to meet him at a bar in Los Angeles. He unfortunately was served with the cease and desist papers instead.


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## John Bishop

SK101 said:


> The story as told to me was Professor Mattera wanted to run West Coast Operations independently. GM Villari pointed out that studios Called Fred Villari's Self Defense Studios wouldn't seem right if there was no longer a Fred Villari. Mattera agreed and they exchanged a million dollars in a secret business deal.
> 
> The next day Villari held a meeting in which he announced he was firing Professor Mattera. After that lawsuits were filed using according to USSD the same money that had just exchanged hands and Professor had to borrow heavily to fight the legal battles. Things happened behind the scenes in what can be described as a business war that occassionally got out of hand.
> 
> In the days when I was with USSD it seemed more like an annoyance than a real problem. Things would happen such as the Villari guys picking up USSD.com and other internet names that the company would eventually need in an effort just to a make things difficult. I am sure there are Cillari stories about United doing things as well, but at the end of the day who knows.
> 
> An interesting story from years ago. After the FVSDS name had been sold and both companies were trying to keep the California instructors in their own camps Villari was planning a tournament to show he was still in control. United was trying to serve him with cease and desist papers, but his location was kept secret. He made the mistake of leaving a business card with a note on a good looking women's windshield saying he was a movie producer named Fred Villari who had a role that would be perfect for her. Unfortunately she had a roommate who had a boyfriend who was a USSD instructor. They talked her into calling and pretending to be nervous about setting up a date with him. She agreed to meet him at a bar in Los Angeles. He unfortunately was served with the cease and desist papers instead.



OK, before I get a bunch of "Report to Moderator" emails, let just say that these are second and possibly third hand accounts.  And although they may or may not be very accurate, like any other other stories, there's usually another side that we are not reading.


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## Mariachi Joe

To bad egos tend to get in the way, things would be a lot better I think if there was cooperation and exchange of ideas between the Villari and Mattera organizations


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## Iron Leopard

I've trained in both schools (ussd, valari) and taught students of both. almost identical styles. great system I've worked with students of many karate and "kung fu" styles. shoalin kempo seems to be the most complete system i've studied though it does lack chi building and breathing techniques etc.. they are there but not focused on much.


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## Kacey

Not to take the thread off topic, but Iron Leopard, have you considered posting a hello in the Meet & Greet?  And welcome, and happy posting!  :wavey:


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## Hand Sword

Iron Leopard said:


> I've trained in both schools (ussd, valari) and taught students of both. almost identical styles. great system I've worked with students of many karate and "kung fu" styles. shoalin kempo seems to be the most complete system i've studied though it does lack chi building and breathing techniques etc.. they are there but not focused on much.


 

Gotta disagree there. Through out the years, all the instructors I met have always streesed those things in their classes. SKK is full or chi, and breathing exercises. Maybe you just had an isolated incident, with a manufactured instructor, unknowledgeable with the system. Heck, it's in the home video series too.


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## Mariachi Joe

I'm a current ussd student and can't speak for all SKK but at my studio I have not had much training in Chi development


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## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> I'm a current ussd student and can't speak for all SKK but at my studio I have not had much training in Chi development


 

That's because that's not a focus of those schools.  To study that, I would suggest finding a taiji instructor that teaches for the love of it and not money.  I just attended a rad seminar from a Chen style GrandMaster and I must say, it's awesome.  He didn't speak any English, but, you could get it.


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## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> The story as told to me was Professor Mattera wanted to run West Coast Operations independently. GM Villari pointed out that studios Called Fred Villari's Self Defense Studios wouldn't seem right if there was no longer a Fred Villari. Mattera agreed and they exchanged a million dollars in a secret business deal.
> 
> The next day Villari held a meeting in which he announced he was firing Professor Mattera. After that lawsuits were filed using according to USSD the same money that had just exchanged hands and Professor had to borrow heavily to fight the legal battles. Things happened behind the scenes in what can be described as a business war that occassionally got out of hand.
> 
> In the days when I was with USSD it seemed more like an annoyance than a real problem. Things would happen such as the Villari guys picking up USSD.com and other internet names that the company would eventually need in an effort just to a make things difficult. I am sure there are Cillari stories about United doing things as well, but at the end of the day who knows.
> 
> An interesting story from years ago. After the FVSDS name had been sold and both companies were trying to keep the California instructors in their own camps Villari was planning a tournament to show he was still in control. United was trying to serve him with cease and desist papers, but his location was kept secret. He made the mistake of leaving a business card with a note on a good looking women's windshield saying he was a movie producer named Fred Villari who had a role that would be perfect for her. Unfortunately she had a roommate who had a boyfriend who was a USSD instructor. They talked her into calling and pretending to be nervous about setting up a date with him. She agreed to meet him at a bar in Los Angeles. He unfortunately was served with the cease and desist papers instead.


 
Um, you're a little mistaken.  it was Fred Villari's USSD when they came to CA.  CM took off the FV and that's what started the war (this is from a guy that was here at the time and went with FV).  I don't know where you got your story from, but I've seen the court documents from CM.  Ask him and he'll show them to you.  There was no secret deal.  I doubt your story about the tournament thing...considering that there are still FV tournaments in CA.


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## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> He is awesome.  Honestly, if you listen to the Fred Villari side, Mattera got greedy.  If you listen to the Mattera side, Villari got greedy.  It's always going to be he said/he said.  Here's what I got from the Villari side it's that Mattera went out to the west coast to open schools and never sent Villari his money, so Villari opened up his own schools under the Fred Villari name and shortly after the USSD split happened.  Mattera sued for the USSD name and won the name.  That kind of co-insides with the Mattera story and that's that.  I'm done.



Well if you look at how much a villari's school and than a Mattera school is there's a big difference.

Villari's is $50,000 and you pay $100 a month to GM Villari for licensing fee and you keep all the rest.

Mattera's ussd you pay $250,000 for half a dojo AND YOU PAY $750 FOR MANUALS A MONTH.   Plus ussd keeps all the green and brown belt testing fee's at Villari's you keep it.


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## Gufbal1982

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Well if you look at how much a villari's school and than a Mattera school is there's a big difference.
> 
> Villari's is $50,000 and you pay $100 a month to GM Villari for licensing fee and you keep all the rest.
> 
> Mattera's ussd you pay $250,000 for half a dojo AND YOU PAY $750 FOR MANUALS A MONTH. Plus ussd keeps all the green and brown belt testing fee's at Villari's you keep it.


 

Not saying a word...


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## 14 Kempo

Gufbal1982 said:


> Not saying a word...


 
Awww ... come on ... LOL


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## Iron Leopard

It does cost a lot to own and run a USSD school but the profits, benefits and support are second to none. Some of the business practices in the old Villari schools were a bit shady, but....as in all things there is change and things might be different now.


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## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> It does cost a lot to own and run a USSD school but the profits, benefits and support are second to none. Some of the business practices in the old Villari schools were a bit shady, but....as in all things there is change and things might be different now.


 

It all depended on who you learned the business from.  I learned from a great person and there was nothing shady in the way I was taught to run my school.  In fact, I took business classes and they all were in agreement with my instructor's practices...so, once again, it all depends on the person you learn from.  I could say the same thing you are saying about old V schools and apply it to a lot of current USSD schools and how they are told to be run, but I won't.  Not because I'd be lying, but because I'd get hostile...and I don't want that.


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## Iron Leopard

I'll agree here that there are good and bad with both systems and there are very good ussd instructors and schools and very good vilari instructors and schools as I've been associated with both. I've also seen instructors at both make tons of money and have many happy students!


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## Mariachi Joe

I like my instructor and don't think he is dishonest at all, but I do think ussd overcharges.


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## MeatWad2

Iron Leopard said:


> It does cost a lot to own and run a USSD school but the profits, benefits and support are second to none. Some of the business practices in the old Villari schools were a bit shady, but....as in all things there is change and things might be different now.



How can it be a good thing to run a United studios school when over half the money goes to ussd?

Do you have any stories or first hand experience?

I've heard a lot of shady business practices about ussd and mattera but I wont post them.


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## Iron Leopard

I have extensive history with both USSD and FV and a few other studios and styles, mainly with USSD and FV split down the middle.

I'll limit this argument to only the business benefits to running a USSD studio.

You get support from thier marketing, (something leopard I think) It's good and ready made and support from the other studios in your area.  Basically if you run your own studio and aren't affiliated with anyone and some one tries to bully you...you are on your own or your friends may or may not help you..with USSD or FV the other studios will show up at your door with help. That's nice.

A lot of money does go to USSD and out of pocket of the instructor or investor but...come on...go to their HQ and count the hummers, corvettes, mercedes, BMWs, and lexus etc. it's crazy. 

I hung out in a circle of FV guys who were the same way.....if you have support and training like that..you can't help but make money and the money you pay out is like an investment that you get back ten fold. It's worth every penny, those that fail were not giving a 100% or were bad with people.

Period. it is a great thing..business wise. I happen to also beleive that it is a great thing martial arts wise too but...that's only my opinion and I've been wrong before.


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## Hand Sword

It is a double edged sword. On one hand, you're right. Tons of people are getting involved in the Martial arts, which is a good thing. On the other side, the Art has suffered badly, with the watering down of training, and less calibur practitoners.


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## MeatWad2

Iron Leopard said:


> I have extensive history with both USSD and FV and a few other studios and styles, mainly with USSD and FV split down the middle.
> 
> I'll limit this argument to only the business benefits to running a USSD studio.
> 
> You get support from thier marketing, (something leopard I think) It's good and ready made and support from the other studios in your area.  Basically if you run your own studio and aren't affiliated with anyone and some one tries to bully you...you are on your own or your friends may or may not help you..with USSD or FV the other studios will show up at your door with help. That's nice.
> 
> A lot of money does go to USSD and out of pocket of the instructor or investor but...come on...go to their HQ and count the hummers, corvettes, mercedes, BMWs, and lexus etc. it's crazy.
> 
> I hung out in a circle of FV guys who were the same way.....if you have support and training like that..you can't help but make money and the money you pay out is like an investment that you get back ten fold. It's worth every penny, those that fail were not giving a 100% or were bad with people.
> 
> Period. it is a great thing..business wise. I happen to also beleive that it is a great thing martial arts wise too but...that's only my opinion and I've been wrong before.



You talk about ussd being there if someone bullys you, I've read on other MA forums ussd does that to people who leave them? 
You have been with them a long time is this true?  

Do they really take half the money from the dojo?


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## Hand Sword

Different people have different experiences. I think the whole USSD thing has been beaten to death. They are who they are, and do what they do. Don't like it? Don't join their organization. There's plenty of other dojos to train at. Let's please stay on topic of the thread.


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## CTKempo Todd

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Why did you leave Villaris?


 

Sorry SN...
Missed your question..

Here is the cliff's notes version of my history within Villari's and beyond..

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=476586&postcount=357


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## Iron Leopard

well bottom line is...most people who leave USSD or FV...if they were good instructors could come back from my experience.....only those that left under bad circumstances.. or tried to open up a competitive studio close to another USSD or FV would cry bully.

USSD instructors make alot of money.  I never considered it that USSD  took half the money...they don't. You can make alot of money in this business and at FV too.

I've seen Masters from other studios and styles and was not impressed ..have seen FV and USSD masters and they were awesome. I probably do need to get out more but...they are good.

I agree that chain or franchise studio is a double edge sword..you want to benifit as many people as you can and teach as many students as possible but with that you can't be the brutal hardcore instructor and only produce A+ black belts.  You must try to benefit everyone. Isn't that why we teach?


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## dianhsuhe

_"well bottom line is...most people who leave USSD or FV...if they were good instructors could come back from my experience.....only those that left under bad circumstances.. or tried to open up a competitive studio close to another USSD or FV would cry bully."_

Wow...Pretty arrogant statement.  How exactly do YOU determine which instructors are "good" and which are not?  My instructor left USSD MANY years ago and never looked back.  According to your theory he must not be a "good" instructor?

Also, I do not believe the goal is to teach as many people as possible and sacrifice the quality of the training.  Quite the opposite actually.  If the training is difficult and challenging, less people are going to stick it out and those that do will be of higher skill and understanding.

Just my opinion of course-


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## MeatWad2

dianhsuhe said:


> _"well bottom line is...most people who leave USSD or FV...if they were good instructors could come back from my experience.....only those that left under bad circumstances.. or tried to open up a competitive studio close to another USSD or FV would cry bully."_
> 
> Wow...Pretty arrogant statement.  How exactly do YOU determine which instructors are "good" and which are not?  My instructor left USSD MANY years ago and never looked back.  According to your theory he must not be a "good" instructor?
> 
> Also, I do not believe the goal is to teach as many people as possible and sacrifice the quality of the training.  Quite the opposite actually.  If the training is difficult and challenging, less people are going to stick it out and those that do will be of higher skill and understanding.
> 
> Just my opinion of course-



Very good opinion Disnhshue.

Iron Leopard your saying people who get bulied for leaving ussd is because they open their own school down the street from them and ussd has the right to do them what ever they want because they came from them?

Did you ever ask them if they were treated right ?
Maybe instead of bullying people maybe look why people leave and fix the problem instead of making more.


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## Hand Sword

coldsteel87 said:


> I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


 

Well....here's the original question of the thread, which seems to have been forgotten. In yet another attempt to bring us back on topic, my answers to this are:The bad talk about Mr. Villari, is in the connection to what others have called McDojoism. This includes business practices, and watered down students, with the creation of one dojo after another. The funny thing about this....All of the current arguers are just carrying on anger that they were not around in the beginning to witness for themselves. All of the original anger goes back many years now, with some people, who are no longer here. What's also funny, many of the other "legit" systems and masters have done the exact same thing as Mr. Villari. Also, many of their students are less than perfect too. As for the system, it's just as good as any other system, being well rounded and practical.


----------



## Iron Leopard

I agree with sword hand. good points.  If you've studied either FV or USSD or another brand of shaolin kempo then you know it's benefits. we all have our opinions on the quality of the instruction and training.  I also didn't mean to imply that either ussd or FV has a right to bully anyone who leaves the system.  In reality I haven't seen much of that by either system I know it has happened though.  I believe if someone decides to leave then let him be.  How do I define "good" instructor? I'm sorry if I came across arogant. by good I just mean, a good instructor who enjoys teaching and is making money. With either FV or USSD if you work hard and enjoy what you are doing you will make money.  and lastly....man I'm long winded today! ....having experience in both systems...I don't know why anyone would talk badly about either unless they had a bad personal experience.  

whew!


----------



## Hand Sword

errr...Hand Sword, thanks.


----------



## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> well bottom line is...most people who leave USSD or FV...if they were good instructors could come back from my experience.....only those that left under bad circumstances.. or tried to open up a competitive studio close to another USSD or FV would cry bully.
> 
> USSD instructors make alot of money. I never considered it that USSD took half the money...they don't. You can make alot of money in this business and at FV too.
> 
> I've seen Masters from other studios and styles and was not impressed ..have seen FV and USSD masters and they were awesome. I probably do need to get out more but...they are good.
> 
> I agree that chain or franchise studio is a double edge sword..you want to benifit as many people as you can and teach as many students as possible but with that you can't be the brutal hardcore instructor and only produce A+ black belts. You must try to benefit everyone. Isn't that why we teach?


 
Well the stories are numerous about the bullying tactics, but whatever. As to the quality of the Masters...everything's relative I guess. Depends on what you're used to.


----------



## dianhsuhe

Sorry Iron Leopard but I fear you missed my point entirely.

_"by good I just mean, a good instructor who enjoys teaching and is making money."_

This is silly.  If the instructor enjoys what he is doing and he makes money he is a good instructor?  Is that really your contention?

I respectfully disagree, being a good instructor and making money are totally unrelated. Some of the finest teachers and schools go out of business because the training is too difficult, or rank advancement is too slow for the general public.  

Professor William Kwai Sun Chow was always at or below the poverty level, does that mean he was not a good teacher?


----------



## MeatWad2

One of my best instructors taught me and one of my friends in the park for 50 bucks a month and could beat the crap out of most McDojo instructors anyday.
He didn't have a dojo but was a great insrtuctor does that make a loser? NO!


----------



## Iron Leopard

Sorry everyone I guess I mispoke ..I didn't mean to say that just having fun and making money means you are a good instructor. I appologize.  

I do believe that if you are a good instructor and that you enjoy teaching that you should be paid and paid well for it.   You can't put a price on personal safety and the thousand other benefits of the martial arts. 

I know that you need quality instruction too.  I realize that chow was never wealthy and that he was a great instructor. and even worse than that....I got Hand Swords name wrong!  I'm so sorry!


----------



## KempoGuy06

Im new to this whole lineage thing so no bashing. SKK comes from Villari, correct? What is USSD? Is it connected to SKK and Villari? Ive tried to read up but have some how confussed myself (happens a lot  ) I have picked up that there is a lot of hostility towards some people about that way things were run. Im trying to understand. 

B

PS - I cant get the seach function to work thats why im asking.


----------



## MJS

KempoGuy06 said:


> Im new to this whole lineage thing so no bashing. SKK comes from Villari, correct? What is USSD? Is it connected to SKK and Villari? Ive tried to read up but have some how confussed myself (happens a lot  ) I have picked up that there is a lot of hostility towards some people about that way things were run. Im trying to understand.
> 
> B
> 
> PS - I cant get the seach function to work thats why im asking.


 
I've since moved on from that system, and I'm sure that others here can offer more detailed input, but it seems to me that USSD (United Studios of Self Defense) is the organization that Demasco and Materra formed after their break from Villari.  As for the material taught, I'm not sure how similar/different it is.

Mike


----------



## 14 Kempo

KempoGuy06 said:


> Im new to this whole lineage thing so no bashing. SKK comes from Villari, correct? What is USSD? Is it connected to SKK and Villari? Ive tried to read up but have some how confussed myself (happens a lot  ) I have picked up that there is a lot of hostility towards some people about that way things were run. Im trying to understand.
> 
> B
> 
> PS - I cant get the seach function to work thats why im asking.


 
Let's not get into all that, when your search engine begins to function, you'll be able to read for yourself. For now, let's just say that the current USSD is a split off of FVSSD and yes, the systems are very, very similar as far as material required for rank, at least up to the level of Nidan.


----------



## Danjo

Fred Villari founded Shaolin Kempo Karate and taught it in an organization named "United Studios of Self Defense". He changed the name to various things over the years and it's now called Villari's Self Defense Centers. Mattera was one of Villari's students up to 7th degree black belt. He broke away in 1988 to form his own organizatin and ressurected the name USSD. In 1993, 7th degree Steve Demasco broke away from Villari and joined up with Mattera in a loose-knit partnership.

The SKK that both teach is virtually identical. The changes between them are the same as you would see going from school to school within either organization.


----------



## Iron Leopard

I agree with the previous couple of posts both styles are virtually identical with a different strike here or a hand position different there.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

AHH the truth comes out.  The students of ussd dont know what goes on behind the scenes there and should.  Dont get me wrong a lot of good instructors at ussd but the managment is not the best IMHO.

I 've heard of the bullying other schools that leave and I think thats wrong.
Treat people well and pay them well and they wont leave you.

Instructors are over worked IMHO. 50 plus hours a week. No health insurance 401k,no taxes taken out.  You only get christmas off and new years day.  You make around 300-400 a week again no taxes taken out. 
Good instructor that dont make it to 150 students and charge them 195 a month for lessions quit because they dont make any money.

VILLARIS is never mentioned!!!!   

I AM DONE WITH MY RANT NOW.


----------



## Iron Leopard

shaolin ninja 4

You do have some good points and there is a lot of truth to what you say. I won't argue anything just saying that it's not all bad at USSD and yes they never mention FV ever?  They don't mention ussd very much at FV either though! lol


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> shaolin ninja 4
> 
> You do have some good points and there is a lot of truth to what you say. I won't argue anything just saying that it's not all bad at USSD and yes they never mention FV ever? They don't mention ussd very much at FV either though! lol


 
Actually, I know of FV Masters that have their USSD rank certificates up in their office.  The ones that know the history of USSD, when asked a question if they teach the same thing will speak the truth.  They will say that USSD was originally with them, but broke off.  FV's USSD has been around since 1968...Can I say that much about the current day USSD?  To be honest, USSD should mention FV because how else would Master Mattera get his rank from 1st - 7th degree black?  He created a lot of the forms and combinations taught after black...right...he should never be mentioned in a USSD school.


----------



## MeatWad2

Iron Leopard said:


> shaolin ninja 4
> 
> You do have some good points and there is a lot of truth to what you say. I won't argue anything just saying that it's not all bad at USSD and yes they never mention FV ever?  They don't mention ussd very much at FV either though! lol



Why would Villari's mention USSD?
He didn't create any forums or combinations with Fred Villaris.
Mattera was just a DM with Fred Villaris nothing more.


----------



## KempoGuy06

I still dont understand what the argument is about. Its too hard to understand. People saying this system screwed me those people did this or that. Whats the point?

B


----------



## Gufbal1982

KempoGuy06 said:


> I still dont understand what the argument is about. Its too hard to understand. People saying this system screwed me those people did this or that. Whats the point?
> 
> B


 
Actually, I have no idea anymore


----------



## KempoGuy06

Gufbal1982 said:


> Actually, I have no idea anymore


 
Stop all the arguing. It seems pointless to me

B


----------



## Hand Sword

coldsteel87 said:


> I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


 

Thank You KempoGuy06! The best post in here so far. In, yet, ANOTHER attempt to put the thread back on course, I've once again brought out the original question. Could we all please stick to it, if not, Then I request that the MODERATORS please close the thread, 'til we all play nice.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Thank You KempoGuy06! The best post in here so far. In, yet, ANOTHER attempt to put the thread back on course, I've once again brought out the original question. Could we all please stick to it, if not, Then I request that the MODERATORS please close the thread, 'til we all play nice.


 
people speak ill of FVSSD because of the fact that FV promoted himself to 10th degree...

I'm playing nice now...


----------



## Hand Sword

So did every other american, Hawaiin pioneer, back in the day. Nothing ill is spoken of them. So, that's not the reason, it was the business politics that he did back then. Funny thing is there's alot of that going around now.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> So did every other american, Hawaiin pioneer, back in the day. Nothing ill is spoken of them. So, that's not the reason, it was the business politics that he did back then. Funny thing is there's alot of that going around now.


 
There's that too...I'm a victim of that.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Im pretty sure my system comes from Villari (will check this) and if imperfection is a reason to bash it then for the love of God nobody watch me. I get praise from my instructor on things that i do and i always laugh at him and tell him that im terrible. This is how i motivate myself to become better. We can call it constructive criticism for lack of a better term. 

No one is perfect. No one will ever be perfect. If you think you are perfect keep dreaming cause someone out there is better than you. 

So again stop the bashing of the other systems. Its disrespectful to that system and its people. You never know your ill remarks could be aimed at a system that has directly or indirectly saved someones life (I will be more than happy to give an example if i am asked to).

B


----------



## Mariachi Joe

KempoGuy06 said:


> Im pretty sure my system comes from Villari (will check this) and if imperfection is a reason to bash it then for the love of God nobody watch me. I get praise from my instructor on things that i do and i always laugh at him and tell him that im terrible. This is how i motivate myself to become better. We can call it constructive criticism for lack of a better term.
> 
> No one is perfect. No one will ever be perfect. If you think you are perfect keep dreaming cause someone out there is better than you.
> 
> So again stop the bashing of the other systems. Its disrespectful to that system and its people. You never know your ill remarks could be aimed at a system that has directly or indirectly saved someones life (I will be more than happy to give an example if i am asked to).
> 
> B


So is your style an off shoot of Villari's


----------



## KempoShaun

Mods, please don't delete this, it's not an advert, well...  It is, but only to broaden horizons :wink1: 

Ya'll may be interested in a yahoo group I moderate on USSD and shaolin Kempo.  http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/USSD1/


----------



## marlon

Gufbal1982 said:


> people speak ill of FVSSD because of the fact that FV promoted himself to 10th degree...
> 
> I'm playing nice now...


 
look up the history of Bagua zhang or other legitimate martial arts.  look into thier founders
marlon


----------



## KempoGuy06

Mariachi Joe said:


> So is your style an off shoot of Villari's


 
No according to this website i found it is Villari's system. I train under Mr. Drake whos school is connected to GM Brassards who trained under GM Villari.

B


----------



## Iron Leopard

I can't think of anyone who teaches SKK how wasn't taught under USSD or FV. Or someone who branched off from either of those two systems somehow.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> I can't think of anyone who teaches SKK how wasn't taught under USSD or FV. Or someone who branched off from either of those two systems somehow.


 
Um, Ralph Castro teaches Shaolin Kenpo Karate and isn't from FVSSD or USSD.


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## Iron Leopard

do you know his lineage? somehow I don't know the name!  I know I know I need to get out more.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

GGM Castro was a student of both Prof. William Chow and GGM Ed Parker Sr.  He was given consent by Prof. Chow to call his system Shaolin Kenpo since that was what Prof. Chow called his system back in the day.


----------



## Carol

Kimo Fereira uses "Shaolin" in the name of his style of Kempo but I don't think his lineage is through Mr. Villari/USSD.​


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## Hand Sword

Correct. He's from the Hawaiin Kempo side of the family.


----------



## Iron Leopard

All of these lineages are very interesting to me.


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## Hand Sword

Funny thing? We all, ALL go back to one source or "parent" ultimately. So to me all of the fighting is what I find interesting and very sad.


----------



## Mariachi Joe

And that parent is Profesor William Chow.  I wonder what he would think of Kempo/Kenpo today?


----------



## Hand Sword

Now, judging from his past ways of speaking, That would be INTERESTING!


----------



## Matt

Carol Kaur said:


> Kimo Fereira uses "Shaolin" in the name of his style of Kempo but I don't think his lineage is through Mr. Villari/USSD.​



No, he doesn't. 

His style is Kempo-Jutsu. You may be thinking of Tom Ingargiola, who runs Shaolin Self Defense Centers, who is affiliated with Professor Kimo. 

Professor Kimo's lineage is through Walter Godin, Martin Buell and others. 

Matt


----------



## dianhsuhe

What would Professor Chow say about Kempo today?  Well I can tell you that he was not happy with many in the kempo world who trained only briefly with him then went on to profit from his name...

It appears that one of the only people who did not profit from Professor Chow's name, was the Professor himself!


----------



## Hand Sword

And that was a huge injustice!


----------



## Mariachi Joe

dianhsuhe said:


> What would Professor Chow say about Kempo today? Well I can tell you that he was not happy with many in the kempo world who trained only briefly with him then went on to profit from his name...
> 
> It appears that one of the only people who did not profit from Professor Chow's name, was the Professor himself!


 
Yeah I've heard that, which was a shame given the man's talent and contribution to Kempo.  At least GM Kuaho never abandoned him


----------



## Iron Leopard

I wonder if chow were teaching today ...would he be making money. or would he disdain that?


----------



## John Bishop

Iron Leopard said:


> I wonder if chow were teaching today ...would he be making money. or would he disdain that?



Prof. Chow didn't make very much money then, and wouldn't have now.  Because he didn't compromise on his instruction.  
His was one of the schools of hard knocks.   No children running around in black belts.  No kids birthday parties.  No 12-18 month black belt academies.  In his  40+ years of teaching, only a handful of individuals made it to black belt with him.  
If he was alive and teaching now, it would be in a park or YMCA somewhere, because he couldn't keep enough students to pay the rent on a nice commercial location.  He probably woudn't have it any other way.


----------



## Hand Sword

Amen to that!


----------



## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> Amen to that!


 
Second  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




B


----------



## marlon

But it does suck when you have some quality teachings to share and cannot do so much because of lack of money.  Balance is required.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Iron Leopard

yeah I agree there has to be balance. you must not cheapen the teachings and still be able to make enough money to teach full time!


----------



## marlon

Iron Leopard said:


> yeah I agree there has to be balance. you must not cheapen the teachings and still be able to make enough money to teach full time!


 

Agreed!!
marlon


----------



## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> yeah I agree there has to be balance. you must not cheapen the teachings and still be able to make enough money to teach full time!


 
Why should one have to teach full time?


----------



## DavidCC

John Bishop said:


> Prof. Chow didn't make very much money then, and wouldn't have now. Because he didn't compromise on his instruction.
> His was one of the schools of hard knocks. No children running around in black belts. No kids birthday parties. No 12-18 month black belt academies. In his 40+ years of teaching, only a handful of individuals made it to black belt with him.
> If he was alive and teaching now, it would be in a park or YMCA somewhere, because he couldn't keep enough students to pay the rent on a nice commercial location. He probably woudn't have it any other way.


 
I think that if Prof. Chow was today accepting advanced students to come and train with him for a week for $1000, he would have more people trying to write him checks than he knew what to do with.  Would most of them be paying for a picture with the Legend and a cool story? maybe, but they'd pay it.  Especially if it turned out to actually to be valuable to the serious ones who came, then demand would be higher.

Who among us here would not be saving our pennies for a chance to do that? 

Could he keep a stable student body?  A small one, agreed.  but with 2-3 visitors per month at a rate like that and he could train his regulars for free.


----------



## Carol

Danjo said:


> Why should one have to teach full time?


 
I agree.   Why is this necessary?


----------



## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> Why should one have to teach full time?



One shouldn't have to.  If I were to run a school again I wouldn't teach fulltime.  I would teach part time and have a job that makes money too.  I know of a freaking awesome master that doesn't teach full time, and loves it that way.  It is sad how some organizations disregard some instructors/masters/grandmasters just because they teach part time and for the enjoyment of teaching rather than being full time and eventually getting burnt out.


----------



## KempoGuy06

Gufbal1982 said:


> One shouldn't have to. If I were to run a school again I wouldn't teach fulltime. I would teach part time and have a job that makes money too. I know of a freaking awesome master that doesn't teach full time, and loves it that way. It is sad how some organizations disregard some instructors/masters/grandmasters just because they teach part time and for the enjoyment of teaching rather than being full time and eventually getting burnt out.


 
I plan to turn my basement into my own training area and teach there after work a couple days a week. 

B


----------



## Danjo

KempoGuy06 said:


> I plan to turn my basement into my own training area and teach there after work a couple days a week.
> 
> B


 
Um, you're going to teach as an Orange Belt?


----------



## Carol

Danjo said:


> Um, you're going to teach as an Orange Belt?


 
He didn't say he was executing his plans at this exact moment in his training.


----------



## Danjo

Carol Kaur said:


> He didn't say he was executing his plans at this exact moment in his training.


 
 Good point. Kempoguy06, please at least wait the additional 14 months until you reach black belt before teaching.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> Good point. Kempoguy06, please at least wait the additional 14 months until you reach black belt before teaching.


 
LOL!  Kempoguy06, I would suggest learning how to teach the material first.  Not to say that you can't teach when you get your black belt, nor am I trying to discourage you from teaching. I started learning to teach at green/brown stripe and then tender age of 12.  I learned on a bunch of kids.  Kids are not as easy to teach as you would think.  You have to learn how to explain to them.  However, those kids taught me how to teach teens and adults.  If you can teach 8 point blocking to a 3 year old, then teaching a 13, 23,33, whatever age is easy.  You at least don't have to play some kind of memory game with older people.  Plus, by teaching a child and explaining to them, you get a better understanding of what you are teaching.  Keep in mind, I didn't start teaching teens and adults till I was 16 and getting ready to test for 2nd degree black.  

At any rate, I would talk to your instructor about learning how to teach before jumping in to teaching in your basement.  Plus, there's also liability waivers, insurance and other things you need before doing that.  If someone gets hurt, well...you get the picture.


----------



## MeatWad2

Try starting a MA club that meets in the park once or twice a week.


----------



## John Bishop

Gufbal1982 said:


> One shouldn't have to.  If I were to run a school again I wouldn't teach fulltime.  I would teach part time and have a job that makes money too.  I know of a freaking awesome master that doesn't teach full time, and loves it that way.  It is sad how some organizations disregard some instructors/masters/grandmasters just because they teach part time and for the enjoyment of teaching rather than being full time and eventually getting burnt out.




Martial arts as a business career is a pretty modern invention.  Probably only 15-20% of martial arts instructors make a living solely from teaching martial arts.  The majority teach part time in commercial, recreational, college clubs, or home settings.   
Even where martial arts are extremely popular like Asian countries, the majority of martial arts is not taught by fulltime instructors.  
The vast majority of martial arts instructors, even now days, have other occupations.  Some unskilled, and some highly professional.  
Many great instructors taught/teach at rec centers, YMCA's, garages's, etc.   
William Chow taught at the "Young Buddhist Association", "Catholic Youth Organization", "Kaheka Gym", "Nuuana YMCA" , in his back yard, and in the park.  He turned out students like Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Bill Chun, Sam Kuoha, and others.  
Adriano Emperado taught at the "Halawa Housing Area" (housing for the poor),  "Palama Settlement" (rec center for the poorest residents of Honolulu), "Kaimuki YMCA", and "Waihiwa YMCA".  He and 4 other martial artists from the poor Kalihi District of Honolulu, created a martial art system that has produced several world champions and is now practiced in 37 countries.  
Walter Godin taught at the "Palama Settlement" and several other locations.  One of his black belts is John Hackleman.  One of Hackleman's black belts is Chuck Liddell. 
My own instructor was a 2 time national champion, was in the first American martial  arts group to be invited to mainland China in the 80's, and has taught seminars around the USA, Spain, England, Canada, Germany, and Mexico.  The only places he's ever had a school was at the San Clemente (Calif) parks and rec, and his garage.          
Some so-called "professional" fulltime martial arts instructors look down on the part time instructors.  But the instructors credentials/experience and what he/she can teach you, is much more important then whether they has a nice commercial building that's open 6 days a week.  
Let's look at 2 instructors.  One is a 21 year old who trained at a nice commercial school, went thru a "instructors academy" and 3-4 years later buys his own franchise.  He dosen't have much life experience because since he was a teenager, he's been working on someday being a "karate teacher".   Besides teaching, he's learned how to run a business and recruit students. 
The next instructor trained for 8-10 years, is a 2nd degree black belt.  He teaches at the local YMCA, because he has a full time career, and dosen't want to be a businessman.   He want's to concentrate on teaching and his own training.  He's 30 years old, and his fulltime job for the last 8 years has been as a police officer.  Over the last 8 years his fulltime job has taught him which one's of his martial arts techniques really work, and which ones don't.  He's learned how criminals think, and how to deal with them, or avoid them.  He's learned what kind of mistakes victims make.  
So, now considering that the main purpose of martial arts training is to learn self defense, which instructor would be a better choice?  The fulltime "professional", or the "part time" instructor?


----------



## Hand Sword

I agree. Also, I always found the part timer's much more enthusiastic about the art, because realistically, they never needed to teach, having a regular career.


----------



## KempoGuy06

LOL! I plan to wait to teach. I need a few things first, of course a black belt, a house (this would be important LOL). Also i want to graduate from college first and establish my career. After that I will look into what is required. Also i believe my instructor said that at blue belt(might be green) is when i can start taking that steps required to become an instructor. Im looking forward to it but i know i have a long road ahead of me. Should be fun.

B


----------



## MeatWad2

Good post Mr Bishop.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Thank you Mr. Bishop!  I agree with you.


----------



## marlon

Good post about teaching.  It is an important subject.  you can only give / teach what you have and share who you are.  Everything else is fake.
a good instructor is a good instructor part time or not, ditto the other way around
Thanks again for the post

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Iron Leopard

Well said Mr. Bishop.  I would like to make a point though...that if you are teaching full time and making money and that is your only job, you can devote all of you effort into teaching and training.  I know alot of people are in it for the money mainly but...not all full time instructors have less enthusiasm than part time instructors.


----------



## almost a ghost

John Bishop said:


> The next instructor trained for 8-10 years, is a 2nd degree black belt.  He teaches at the local YMCA, because he has a full time career, and dosen't want to be a businessman.   He want's to concentrate on teaching and his own training.  He's 30 years old, and his fulltime job for the last 8 years has been as a police officer.  Over the last 8 years his fulltime job has taught him which one's of his martial arts techniques really work, and which ones don't.  He's learned how criminals think, and how to deal with them, or avoid them.  He's learned what kind of mistakes victims make.



Here's a prime example of such an instructor who is fortunate enough to rent space. http://www.hendersonsdc.com


----------



## Carol

Iron Leopard said:


> Well said Mr. Bishop. I would like to make a point though...that if you are teaching full time and making money and that is your only job, you can devote all of you effort into teaching and training. I know alot of people are in it for the money mainly but...not all full time instructors have less enthusiasm than part time instructors.


 
That is very true too.  And there are benefits to the students that go with having a place to go to.  When I was unemployed last year, my Kenpo teachers were of phenomenal support.  And it made a huge difference in my life.  

I don't think I'm alone in saying...outside of serious medical harm, job loss is one of the worst kinds of trauma a person can face.   My instructors became much more than the folks that were teaching me how to punch and kick.  They were there for me whenever I wanted to vent or whine or cry or cheer.  They helped keep away the screaming despair that comes with waking up in the morning and knowing that no place to go because you aren't "needed" anywhere.    

There are benefits....and drawbacks...to everything.


----------



## Carol

KempoGuy06 said:


> LOL! I plan to wait to teach. I need a few things first, of course a black belt, a house (this would be important LOL). *Also i want to graduate from college first and establish my career. *


 
VERY VERY VERY important steps to take.  Hats off to you for thinking that way.  



> After that I will look into what is required. Also i believe my instructor said that at blue belt(might be green) is when i can start taking that steps required to become an instructor.


 
You're already taking some of the steps, KempoGuy.  :asian:


----------



## Iron Leopard

Yes go for the black belt first!


----------



## Hand Sword

Iron Leopard said:


> Yes go for the black belt first!


 

Even then, I would say just be an assistant than. Earn a few degrees on that Black belt before instructing. Also, in all honesty, blue or green is not the right time, you're still trying to get the material yourself, competently. Don't propogate the commercialism that is going on, if the art means alot to you.


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## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Even then, I would say just be an assistant than. Earn a few degrees on that Black belt before instructing. Also, in all honesty, blue or green is not the right time, you're still trying to get the material yourself, competently. Don't propogate the commercialism that is going on, if the art means alot to you.



I agree with this.  Plus, as you already stated, get your college degree first.  No one can take that education away from you and will only benefit you.


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## Mariachi Joe

Gufball is right, take your time, finish college and make your decision after you've trained a few more years.


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## John Bishop

Yes, get your education.  It's much more difficult getting a education once you get a wife and some kids, and start running a business.  Having a education will be a asset, and is accomplishment that will stay with you for the rest of your life. 
Take your martial arts training slow, it's such a great journey when your a student.  Watching your skills grow.  Getting stronger, getting faster.  Doing things you never thought you'd be able to do.  If you don't get in a hurry a teacher, you'll find it's so rewarding and enjoyable to be a student.


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## KempoGuy06

Hand Sword said:


> Even then, I would say just be an assistant than. Earn a few degrees on that Black belt before instructing. Also, in all honesty, blue or green is not the right time, you're still trying to get the material yourself, competently. Don't propogate the commercialism that is going on, if the art means alot to you.


 
When i said that i could start taking the steps to be an insturctor at blue or green i didnt mean that i would start teaching then. At my school the way it is set up is you can start on this 2 year process that teaches you on how to be an instructor or something like that. Honestly i dont know that much about it. I havent asked seeing as how im only an orange belt. 

I know it will take me a while to get my black belt and that this or higher is the best thing to have when becoming an instructor. After really thinking about ill probably abandon the idea of opening my own school and just return to where i learned everything and ensure that my school remains open. But like many people have said I have quite a few years before i even have to seriously consider my options

B


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## Danjo

KempoGuy06 said:


> When i said that i could start taking the steps to be an insturctor at blue or green i didnt mean that i would start teaching then. At my school the way it is set up is you can start on this 2 year process that teaches you on how to be an instructor or something like that. Honestly i dont know that much about it. I havent asked seeing as how im only an orange belt.
> 
> I know it will take me a while to get my black belt and that this or higher is the best thing to have when becoming an instructor. After really thinking about ill probably abandon the idea of opening my own school and just return to where i learned everything and ensure that my school remains open. But like many people have said I have quite a few years before i even have to seriously consider my options
> 
> B


 
It's too bad. At a time when one should be focussing on one's own progress, they want you to start learning how to teach others. I would just focus on learning what you need to get to black belt and then think about whether you want to teach.


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## Iron Leopard

That's a point I've wondered.  You can just focus on getting your black belt and learning everything without any distractions and start teaching after black belt. And that's great and a great way to start down the path to becoming an instructor. 

 A serious question though, is...If you start learning how to teach at a lower belt, say blue or green, does that hinder your martial arts progress or does it kick it up a notch?  Mainly due to increased understanding of what you are doing.  What are your thoughts on this?


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## John Bishop

You've got to remember.  A lot of the training in "instructor training" programs isn't conducted on the mat.  
You learn how to recruit students.  How to keep them motivated.  How to sell them things they probably don't need.   How to manage your assistant instructors and employees.  Basically things you need to know to run a business.  
Now when it comes to the hands on physical teaching of techniques, it would probably be best to be as proficient at the technique as possible, before trying to teach it to others.


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## Mariachi Joe

Mr. Bishop is correct, the ussd instructor academy mostly teaches you business practices, like selling stuff and recruting people.


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## Gufbal1982

John Bishop said:


> You've got to remember. A lot of the training in "instructor training" programs isn't conducted on the mat.
> You learn how to recruit students. How to keep them motivated. How to sell them things they probably don't need. How to manage your assistant instructors and employees. Basically things you need to know to run a business.
> Now when it comes to the hands on physical teaching of techniques, it would probably be best to be as proficient at the technique as possible, before trying to teach it to others.


 
This is why I was taught to teach 3 year old beginners when I was 12.  I knew those techniques and was forced to break them down further and further.  I was getting ready for brown belt testing by then, but wasn't ready for the rank until 13.  So, he made teaching part of my training...but, once again, it was limited.  I was glad my instructor didn't let me teach teens or adults until 16 and was getting ready to test for 2nd degree black.  I understood better.  By then, I learned how to recruit by watching him do it.  I went another 2 years before I had my first student sign up with me.  6 years of watching and learning...sounds like a good plan.


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## MeatWad2

Mariachi Joe said:


> Mr. Bishop is correct, the ussd instructor academy mostly teaches you business practices, like selling stuff and recruting people.



I've heard about their program, is this what you found all so?


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## Iron Leopard

If I'm not mistaken the FV schools have a very similar program or ...well I guess every martial arts school or system has some kind of apprentice program or such.


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## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> If I'm not mistaken the FV schools have a very similar program or ...well I guess every martial arts school or system has some kind of apprentice program or such.


 
No they don't.  Every instructor is taught by their instructor.  You buy a license from your instructor.  The only way you get taught to run a school is if you want to.  If you just want to teach, then you just learn how to teach.


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## Iron Leopard

gufbal have you had experience teaching in both systems?  Just curious.


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## Mariachi Joe

MeatWad2 said:


> I've heard about their program, is this what you found all so?


 
IRO-BOT used to be in ussd's academy so he would know more than me.  When I got my blue belt I was asked if I wanted to join their instructor academy, but when I learned about the $15,000 price of the academy I said no, there was no way I could afford that.  IRO-BOT also told me that when he was in the academy he felt that he was being rushed and not getting a chance to get a good understanding of the material he was being taught.


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## MeatWad2

Mariachi Joe said:


> IRO-BOT used to be in ussd's academy so he would know more than me.  When I got my blue belt I was asked if I wanted to join their instructor academy, but when I learned about the $15,000 price of the academy I said no, there was no way I could afford that.  IRO-BOT also told me that when he was in the academy he felt that he was being rushed and not getting a chance to get a good understanding of the material he was being taught.



Funny I heard the same thing.


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## Iron Leopard

I guess being rushed through material is the big disadvantage to teaching before black belt.


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## Mariachi Joe

Yeah that's why I think USSD should not let people who are yellow and orange belts into their academy.  I think they should wait until someone has at least made it to brown.


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## almost a ghost

I was with their program back when it only cost $3000 to $3500, while I did get lectures on how to teach, student retention, demostrating application, the occasional good of a fancy forms or techniques, a much larger part of the time was spent on students sign ups, because a majority of the schools franchise agreements were based on buying Student Manuals, a very small portion were opting for sending a monthly check for the franchise rights which from what I was told was more pricey.


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## MeatWad2

almost a ghost said:


> I was with their program back when it only cost $3000 to $3500, while I did get lectures on how to teach, student retention, demostrating application, the occasional good of a fancy forms or techniques, a much larger part of the time was spent on students sign ups, because a majority of the schools franchise agreements were based on buying Student Manuals, a very small portion were opting for sending a monthly check for the franchise rights which from what I was told was more pricey.



Sounds great were do I sign up?
I have $15,000 to throw away.


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## MeatWad2

Mariachi Joe said:


> Yeah that's why I think USSD should not let people who are yellow and orange belts into their academy.  I think they should wait until someone has at least made it to brown.



Yellow and orange thats pretty bad.  
At villaris you have to be a 3rd to run a school.


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## Iron Leopard

Meatwad I think that's right, 3rd degree. but I recall a couple of guys who were 2nd degree and one who was 1st, but I might have been mistaken.


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## almost a ghost

Mariachi Joe said:


> Yeah that's why I think USSD should not let people who are yellow and orange belts into their academy.  I think they should wait until someone has at least made it to brown.



I've never seen it that bad, now somebody being handed a black belt to wear for a couple of months while they run a school and then get rushed and tested, yeah, I've seen that first hand. It's things like that really affect ones perception of the system (see how I'm trying to get back on topic  ).


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## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> I've never seen it that bad, now somebody being handed a black belt to wear for a couple of months while they run a school and then get rushed and tested, yeah, I've seen that first hand. It's things like that really affect ones perception of the system (see how I'm trying to get back on topic  ).


 
Once again, It's not the SYSTEM (SKK), It's the ORGANIZATION (ussd) that is the offender. Please, stop replacing the individuals that make the business decisions, for the system of SKK.


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## Hand Sword

coldsteel87 said:


> I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system.


 

 Again, To get back to the real topic of the thread, which is not about USSD's business practices, here are the original questions above.


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## almost a ghost

Hand Sword said:


> Once again, It's not the SYSTEM (SKK), It's the ORGANIZATION (ussd) that is the offender. Please, stop replacing the individuals that make the business decisions, for the system of SKK.



I think you took what I said out of context. I was saying that if somebody is at a school that teaches SKK, watches such things happening, it's going to affect their view of the system, right or wrong, it's still going to happen.


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## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> I think you took what I said out of context. I was saying that if somebody is at a school that teaches SKK, watches such things happening, it's going to affect their view of the system, right or wrong, it's still going to happen.


 

I understand that. However, I and others on here have been attempting to focus those who are misguided. They are now aware of the truth, any further sniping in that context, is now being done, strictly to be inflamatory. Enough is Enough, please.


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## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> gufbal have you had experience teaching in both systems? Just curious.


 
Yes I have.  There's pros and cons to both.  I can definately see the difference in USSD's SKK and FVSSD's SKK training and teaching.


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## MeatWad2

Gufbal1982 said:


> Yes I have.  There's pros and cons to both.  I can definately see the difference in USSD's SKK and FVSSD's SKK training and teaching.


How so?


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## Gufbal1982

MeatWad2 said:


> How so?


 
which aspect are you referring to?  i don't want to give an unneeded disertation...


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## MeatWad2

Gufbal1982 said:


> which aspect are you referring to?  i don't want to give an unneeded disertation...



Whats the difference between the teaching and training?


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## RevIV

[Originally Posted by *coldsteel87* 

 
_I train in shaolin kempo karate under grandmaster fred villari. I am dedicated to the system and the longer i train the more i am amazed by it. Many people though talk badly of villari and his system. I dont understand this. Is it cause they saw a villari student who was a little more then less then perfect? I would like to know what others think about villari and his system._

Well i will try to get this on track.  People talk badly of Villari's because he was one of the first to truly franchise MA.  when i say truly, he must of had 300 schools at one time i believe.  Anyone who puts out that many schools is going to get some grief.  For awhile he was doing exactly what USSD is doing now, putting unqualified people into schools for cash on the spot franchises.  He seems to of learned from his mistakes and is taking efforts of being more careful now.  It is easy to make some a tracer - but it takes years to become an artist.  Students catch up to their teacher pretty fast if all the teacher is doing is tracing and retracing to their students.  The top original students and fighters at Villari's were tough in your face martial artists.  Others are mad because he promoted himself to 10th degree from 2nd, but these same people who were mad did nothing about it.  Why?  I think because people new that GM Villari was a tough fighter and no one wanted to take a shot at him.
In Peace,
Jesse


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## Hand Sword

And, because, they did the same thing for themselves. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Seriously, people that knew, and still disliked him admitted that he was good.

As for the original question (thanks RevIV), People talk badly based on very old animosity, of which, they really had nothing to do with, just carrying on old arguments, passed on from their people. Which was, taking the martial arts main stream, and making lot's of money. Later, the accusers have done the same thing. From there, all of the further animosity with the newer accusers is based on divying up the business, and money. IMHO, it's just greed, and playing the marketing game. Really sad!


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## RevIV

From the stories i have heard as well as any of you SKK people who have been in it long enough, they were bad people at times.  When you do bad things to people they tend to remember you and talk about it.
Jesse


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> Why? I think because people new that GM Villari was a tough fighter and no one wanted to take a shot at him.
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Or they didn't want to bother with a law suit. Villari may have been tough, but there were plenty of martial artists that no one went to go beat up back then. Why did no one go beat up Elvis Pressley? Because he was too tough? Where is Villari's fight record? Where are the stories of his prowess in the streets? Aside from the machete attacks, are there any stories anyone can share of Villari fighting anyone?


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## RevIV

Danjo said:


> Or they didn't want to bother with a law suit. Villari may have been tough, but there were plenty of martial artists that no one went to go beat up back then. Why did no one go beat up Elvis Pressley? Because he was too tough? Where is Villari's fight record? Where are the stories of his prowess in the streets? Aside from the machete attacks, are there any stories anyone can share of Villari fighting anyone?


 
you seriously crack me up.  Law suits in the late 60's early 70's? please, thats when men were men and took a licking if deserved and did not go cry to mommy if they were threatened or beat up.  Fight record? If this were what proved a system then we win here too.  All I have to say is Prof. Ingargiolla of SHAOLIN self defense.  You ask any east coaster who knew GM Villari in the early 70's and they will tell you that no one wanted to mess with him.  And for Elvis - I did not know he claimed anything that wasnt given to him - or that he started his own system. Would you like to share some of Sijo Emperado's stories on this public forum?
In Peace,
Jesse


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> you seriously crack me up. Law suits in the late 60's early 70's? please, thats when men were men and took a licking if deserved and did not go cry to mommy if they were threatened or beat up. Fight record? If this were what proved a system then we win here too. All I have to say is Prof. Ingargiolla of SHAOLIN self defense. You ask any east coaster who knew GM Villari in the early 70's and they will tell you that no one wanted to mess with him. And for Elvis - I did not know he claimed anything that wasnt given to him - or that he started his own system. Would you like to share some of Sijo Emperado's stories on this public forum?
> In Peace,
> Jesse


 
Hey just asking. I never heard of Prof. Igargiolla until this forum, so I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. The point was that people make unsubstantiated claims a lot with no evidence to back them up. I didn't come here making claims about Sijo Emperado being too tough for people to question, you did make such a claim about Villari so I thought you might have some personal information about his fighting prowess either in the ring or street etc. If you don't have any such tales to tell, then what are you basing this on?


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## Iron Leopard

I hear a lot of stories and two people that are always described as men you absolutily did not want to mess with were FV and Chow!


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## RevIV

I have stories and i do not believe that they are all just fairy tales.  Heck i know stories of you getting into it with students (not saying it bad just remembering a past post)  these are stories and they show how a man stuck up for himself or was just a mean person who liked to fight.  Unfortunetly when you put these stories out now a days they can come back to haunt you and you get sued.  As far as Prof. Ingargiola is concerned he and his students have pro. and amatuer bouts in both grappling and kickboxing. one of his students just won an ISKA bout in CA. and is now on the WCL.  He is a direct student of GM Villari.  - I feel that i have been defending GM V. a lot here and i have never met the man. in fact most stories i hear of him are not even good ones that you should be proud of.  What i am proud of is my martial arts.  may it be, GGM Gascon, SGM Pesare - both of whom i know and call friends, Villari or my first instructor to whom i can attribute my love for the arts for. I dont know.  All of these people created a path and i keep trying to honor them by continuing to forge that path.  
In Peace
Jesse


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## Gufbal1982

First off let me say that I met FV a lot and he's really nice.  So is Mattera.  I wouldn't mess with either of them.  They are scary. Mattera is a smart business man while Villari has Grupposo do everything business wise.  Being nice to your face though doesn't mean they have to like you.  That's my point.   Next is WCL the karate version of the IFL?


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## Mariachi Joe

Danjo said:


> Or they didn't want to bother with a law suit. Villari may have been tough, but there were plenty of martial artists that no one went to go beat up back then. Why did no one go beat up Elvis Pressley? Because he was too tough? Where is Villari's fight record? Where are the stories of his prowess in the streets? Aside from the machete attacks, are there any stories anyone can share of Villari fighting anyone?


 

I don't remember the thread, but I do remember reading a post by Prof. Shuras in which he said that there were a few guys that did challenge GM Villari and got owned, so challengers started thinking twice about fighting him.


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## Mariachi Joe

Iron Leopard said:


> I hear a lot of stories and two people that are always described as men you absolutily did not want to mess with were FV and Chow!


 

I heard the same about Siju Emperado and Prof. Cerio


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## Gufbal1982

Mariachi Joe said:


> I heard the same about Siju Emperado and Prof. Cerio



To be honest, I heard back in the day that Mattera was a hell of a fighter as well.  Prof. I is another fighter.  He's part of the list of homies you don't want to mess with.  Prof. Cerio is rad because I heard he was a little guy but was a total force to be reckoned with.  I never met him so I don't know about the height thing, but I saw a video of him beating the tar out of my USSD instructor.


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## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> First off let me say that I met FV a lot and he's really nice.  So is Mattera.  I wouldn't mess with either of them.  They are scary. Mattera is a smart business man while Villari has Grupposo do everything business wise.  Being nice to your face though doesn't mean they have to like you.  That's my point.   Next is WCL the karate version of the IFL?




Your right about people being nice to your face but not liking you and may just want somthing from you.


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## MJS

Thread closed pending review

MJS
MT Supermod


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## shesulsa

_*Admin Note:

This thread will remain closed due to the repetitive insulting, demeaning and fraud-busting nature of this thread.  This type of conversation on this topic will no longer be tolerated.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Admininstrator*_


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