# hit and being hit



## marlon (Aug 8, 2005)

It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.  Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?  Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone.  Do people still do body conditioning?  Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks?  Can they take a hit?  Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training?  Is progressively increasing contact necessary?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## sifu Adams (Aug 8, 2005)

I would say he is afriad of fighting or being hit because he should have control as a blackbelt and know when to pull his punches.  How long has he been teaching.  I would guess not long.  Most black belts know when you spar lower rank there reaction is slow and sometimes wrong.  It you throw a punch to the face  and aim one inch away, sometimes they will turn into the punch and you end up 5 inch into them.  thats not good for attracting new students.  I say he is afriad to fight because where I come from you never back away from a sparing match because you have no control or because the other person has no control.  To us a good balck belt should be able to control the fight.  As for the hitting well I been hit and have hit.  We don't go for blood but sometimes it happens.


----------



## kenpohack (Aug 8, 2005)

My instructor won't hit white and yellow belts. However, once you reach orange belt, he'll progressively start to increase the level of contact till about Brown belt. At that point, you should be taking close to full power shots to targets like the stomach and ribs. Discretion must be used, however; obviously if someone is 120 lbs, they will never take the shots that a 250 pound man can.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 8, 2005)

That's a tough one.  I don't personally believe you can teach fighting without hitting but the guy may have other issues.  There was a noted karate instructor in Holland (Dollman sp? I believe) who hit a guy with a heel palm strike (in a self defense situation not training) and nearly killed the guy so he stopped using that strike and stopped striking to the head for fear of a repeat.  Not all people are equipped to take the emotional beating of hurting someone else.  I personally hit my students and experiment to see how much is too much for each one.  So one of my students may not be able to take a hit so I'll hit them light where as some of my other students (Dino you reading this?) insist that I hit them with some gusto on it so they know what it feels like and so they believe in what I teach.  I have a feeling that the answer to this question is much deeper than it appears.  Either that or it's the classic "I don't want to hit you, I'll hurt you" macho coverup of someone missing true hitting ability.  But I prefer that the case be the previous statement about underlying issues if this person is an instructor.  I can only hope.


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.  Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?  Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone.  Do people still do body conditioning?  Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks?  Can they take a hit?  Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training?  Is progressively increasing contact necessary?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



At our school we begin desensitizing people to contact in their very first lesson. I find that one of the biggest challenges many students face, especially at the beginner level, is making physical contact with another adult, especially in a violent context. Look around, many adults go through their daily lives without touching other people. In fact, many go out of their way to avoid any kind of physical contact what so ever, except possibly with their loved ones, and beginners are often uncomfortable touching or being touched by another adult.

I find that several steps are helpful in desensitizing students to contact. First and foremost is professionalism. Make sure that everyone understands that all contact is done purely for the purpose of training. The best way to convey this message is to simply be professional in your dealings with your students. I have found that even when in compromising positions which could be misconstrued, even when working with children, if I am focused and professional and conveying honest useful information, everyone focuses on that and pays attention. 

Secondly I have found that using focus shields with my students is a good way to help to get them used to feeling incoming force without frightening them unduly. Using the focus shield allows the student to feel differing degrees of force through an intermediary. This allows the student to adjust to force, and practice resisting the force, and see another student throwing blows at them, without actually hitting them, yet.

Thirdly we practice techniques on the body with increasing degrees of force. The students are taught to practice their techniques at touch and light contact, and contact is increased over time as the students move into more advanced classes. Beginner students are repeatedly reminded to use control and touch their targets. Intermediate students are taught to use heavier contact while still using control. This process continues in more advanced classes. At all levels students are practicing on shields, heavy bags, and other punching targets with heavier contact so that they can continue to develop power with their techniques.

Additionally I do regular drills in my classes where my students grab or push each other to work defenses against those attacks, both in the context of techniques and in spontaneous, motion based drilling. This helps to break down the barrier that the students have put up against contact. This process continues into all categories of attack with greater contact at more advanced levels.

One other drill that I like is designed to teach the student how to tense their body to resist force as well as to desensitize the students to contact. I have a student stand in a horse stance and another student moves around them lightly striking the body with punches, elbows, or open hand strikes. The key here is for the student to feel the force as they are very lightly struck and tense the muscles in that area to protect the internal organs. 

These are just some of the basic steps involved. There are many other drills and training techniques which can be used, such as sparring and sensitivity drills, but the real key is to begin the process early. If the instructor waits until the brown or black belt level to hit someone, several problems arise.

1. The student has already adjusted to and accepted the degree of contact inherent in his training. To drastically increase that, especially after so much time, without ramping it up slowly, would certaintly intimidate the student.

2. Students who were naturally predisposed to heavier contact, or looking specifically for it in their self defense training have probably already left the school, leaving no one who can role model "sucking it up" and "taking the punishment" for the weaker students to emulate.

3. It seems hard to except that a student could learn effective self defense and acquire street applicable skills without engaging in some level of contact with a resisting opponent.

Especially at the beginning levels, it is important to pair up students with similar attributes, physically, mentally, emotionally, even experientially. Not every time, but more often than not. Certaintly it is important to pair up students of different sizes and strengths so that they can learn to effectively execute technique against a variety of bigger, stronger, or faster attackers, but that can be emphasized to a greater degree later in their training. If you put too much on a beginning student, you will lose a student, and then you can't help them at all.

The most important aspect in my opinion is to care about your students and be concious of their unique challenges, while also pushing them to reach outside their comfort zone. That is what a good coach does. You have to listen to the students and be concerned with helping them grow as martial artists. You know what they need to achieve, but you have to listen to your students to know what the best way to lead them to that goal is. All students learn and process information differently and being sensitive to each student's needs will help you to motivate them to improve. 


-Rob


----------



## Simon Curran (Aug 9, 2005)

Well here is my opinion, as a non-black belt,

I do not mind taking shots in training, and will take training partners to task if they don't make any contact on me (especially females because I am a big guy, and if they won't hit a big guy in training, what will they do on the street...)
On the other hand, however, since I am a big guy, I don't particularly like to beat up on my training partners too much (with the exception of a few, one of my training partners is over 300 lbs...)
I am of the opinion that the best conditioning for getting hit, is getting hit, and the chances of a person ever getting hit as hard on the street as they do in training, I would hope, are minimal, so why not get used to it in a controlled environment


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.  Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?  Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone.  Do people still do body conditioning?  Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks?  Can they take a hit?  Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training?  Is progressively increasing contact necessary?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



One other point should be made here, and as it deals directly with the business side of the business, as opposed to the martial arts/teaching/transmision of skill and knowledge side I wanted to make it seperately.

I know of some schools, in a variety of arts, which choose not to teach contact as a specific, business driven decision, based on a belief that they will make more money selling dance lessons to an unknowing public than they will selling real martial training to dedicated practitioners of combat arts. If they are honest about what they are doing this is not inherently wrong, although I would not choose to participate in it. Unfortunately, these types of schools are often the first to declare that they have the techniques which will save your life, often making unrealistic claims as to the effectivness of their techniques, promising that study at their academy will make you unbeatable and give you the skill necessary to defend against five repeat felons armed with guns, knives, and bad intentions. The best that can be said in their defense under these circumstances is that it is entirely possible that they are ignorant of the misrepresentation of their practices to the public simply because they don't practice contact and so have no real frame of reference. Anyone who practices techniques against a resisting opponent understands that real combat is messy, dirty, and often involves everyone getting hurt, but hopefully the bad guy more so than the good guy. I have heard that several schools and even well known martial arts organizations have decided, at the "corporate level" that contact between students could lead to injury, which it occasionally does, and that injury could lead to lawsuits, which it occasionally does, and that that is an unacceptable risk. As a result contact between students is banned and from that point on students are treated like porcelain dolls with checking accounts from which the studio can draft it's electric bills and rent. Again, if the students are aware of what they are getting and it's relative place in the pantheon of martial arts instruction, and they choose to continue to participate in this type of training, I don't see any problem with how they spend their time and money. Unfortunately most students, especially at the beginner level, have no concept of their options in training facilities or how practice can vary from school to school, and simply accept whatever is done in house as, "the way things are done." This is ignorance at best, and dishonest business dealings which pervert and corrode at the heart of honor, discipline, and tradition upon which every formal system of combat has been founded, in every culture, at worst. To engage in this type of behavior, to the detriment of your students, knowingly and willingly, is something which I could not personally be a part of.


-Rob


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2005)

Simon Curran said:
			
		

> Well here is my opinion, as a non-black belt,
> 
> I do not mind taking shots in training, and will take training partners to task if they don't make any contact on me (especially females because I am a big guy, and if they won't hit a big guy in training, what will they do on the street...)
> On the other hand, however, since I am a big guy, I don't particularly like to beat up on my training partners too much (with the exception of a few, one of my training partners is over 300 lbs...)
> I am of the opinion that the best conditioning for getting hit, is getting hit, and the chances of a person ever getting hit as hard on the street as they do in training, I would hope, are minimal, so why not get used to it in a controlled environment



I am also bigger than many of my training partners and students, and since I've been training longer, can often, but not always, hit harder. I practice control when training so as not to hurt my friends, and because I learned early on that to do otherwise is to find yourself training alone in a hurry. I also agree with your point about women hitting men harder, or smaller people hitting bigger people harder in general, and your point about conditioning for getting hit by getting hit. The one place I'd disagree is with your assertion that hits on the street will be softer than hits in the dojo. Even when training at heavy contact and trying to overcome my equals or betters, even with my best friend when we are truly trying to win, and to give anything but your best would be a personal insult, I'm never really trying to hurt those people. I mean really hurt them. I mean hurt them in an intensely personal way which will do lasting damage to them and change the course of the rest of their life. Now, you may not intend to hit this way on the street, but you can rest assured that a violent, recidivist criminal will, and once he does, you probably will too. I know I've hit the heavy bag harder than I've ever hit a training partner, and not nearly as hard as I would hit someone who hurt my loved ones.

No, the heaviest dojo contact is still contrived, and carries with it all the weight of simulated, formal combat, as well as the burden of striking people you care about, even if only as warm bodies who show up twice a week to be struck upon. Real combat is something else, and you will rarely if ever see it occur within the walls of a karate studio.


-Rob


----------



## Simon Curran (Aug 9, 2005)

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I am also bigger than many of my training partners and students, and since I've been training longer, can often, but not always, hit harder. I practice control when training so as not to hurt my friends, and because I learned early on that to do otherwise is to find yourself training alone in a hurry. I also agree with your point about women hitting men harder, or smaller people hitting bigger people harder in general, and your point about conditioning for getting hit by getting hit. The one place I'd disagree is with your assertion that hits on the street will be softer than hits in the dojo. Even when training at heavy contact and trying to overcome my equals or betters, even with my best friend when we are truly trying to win, and to give anything but your best would be a personal insult, I'm never really trying to hurt those people. I mean really hurt them. I mean hurt them in an intensely personal way which will do lasting damage to them and change the course of the rest of their life. Now, you may not intend to hit this way on the street, but you can rest assured that a violent, recidivist criminal will, and once he does, you probably will too. I know I've hit the heavy bag harder than I've ever hit a training partner, and not nearly as hard as I would hit someone who hurt my loved ones.
> 
> No, the heaviest dojo contact is still contrived, and carries with it all the weight of simulated, formal combat, as well as the burden of striking people you care about, even if only as warm bodies who show up twice a week to be struck upon. Real combat is something else, and you will rarely if ever see it occur within the walls of a karate studio.
> 
> ...


Good points well made:asian: 

And you may well be correct, but this is coming only from my personal experience, I have been rocked by shots in training but never (up to press, and hope it continues thus) been rocked by a punch in the street (I used to work in the liqour licensed trade...), but I agree that one should never say never.


----------



## Doc (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.  Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?  Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone.  Do people still do body conditioning?  Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks?  Can they take a hit?  Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training?  Is progressively increasing contact necessary?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.


----------



## Drac (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students. Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?


I don't believe so..As a white belt I was made to spar with Sensei and some of the senior students, they landed a few good ones but I never quit..I think contact is necessary..That way you won't be surprised and stunned if you take a hit on the streets..


----------



## Simon Curran (Aug 9, 2005)

Drac said:
			
		

> I don't believe so..As a white belt I was made to spar with Sensei and some of the senior students, they landed a few good ones but I never quit..I think contact is necessary..That way you won't be surprised and stunned if you take a hit on the streets..


Kind of the point I was trying to make, just more eloquently phrased, thanks.


----------



## MJS (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.  Can one teach others effective street martial arts without hitting them with some increasing degree of contact?  Obviously, it is not a question at beginner levels and we are not talking about injuring someone.  Do people still do body conditioning?  Are black belt still expected to be able to defend against realistic attacks?  Can they take a hit?  Do they train regularly with contact...or is it "well we know we can hurtr each other so let's barely touch each other for the rest of our training?  Is progressively increasing contact necessary?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



One thing that students need to realize when they * first * walk into the dojo, is that the arts are going to contain contact!  People who have never trained before need to understand exactly what they're getting themselves into.  If its something that they (the student) feel is not for them, then they should not join.  In the beginning ranks, the contact should be limited.  They're going to need to get used to blocking, striking, moving, etc.  Once they start reaching the intermediate ranks, there should be some contact.  Once they reach the advanced ranks, especially BB, there should be contact.  Now, I'm certianly not saying start breaking bones, giving black eyes, etc. but contact needs to be made.  Why give the student a false impression that what they're doing in the dojo is going to work when they really need to call upon those skills?  If they're not used to contact, they will be in for quite a surprise.  I realize in todays world, people sue at the drop of a hat, but come on.  Again, this is why I stress the importance of making the new student aware of what they're getting into.

Mike


----------



## Shotochem (Aug 9, 2005)

I too find it hard to believe that there are so many places that do not make contact.  There are also many places that only make light contact from day one.  

You need to be hit in order to know how it feels and to be able to take a hit if you are attacked for real.  Anything else has the danger of presenting one with a false sense of security.  

That can get you hurt.

In my new dojo, the first class I actually sparred.  The contact was harder and more intense than we normally go in my other dojo.  I'm not sure whether
it was a matter of "see how much tougher my art is than what you were taking" being the new guy.  Or maybe they are just plain crazy.  (I can't wait for my next class!!!)

This topic has got me thinking, is there such a thing as too much contact?  What is the happy medium?  We all have to go to work the day after. where is the line between effective and ineffective?  

I'm not exactly going to the nearest bar to find out. 

 I'm a lover not a fighter. :supcool:


----------



## Seabrook (Aug 9, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> It came up in discussion with a black belt school owner that he cannot make contact with his students...even at brown belt for fear of loosing students.
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


Is money more important than producing top-notch students? If someone wants to leave because he/she doesn't like the contact used during techniques and/or sparring, then by all means, let him/her leave. 

Learning how to hit an attacker is all fine and dandy, but learning how to take a hit is a crucial part of martial arts training as well. I know a Tracy Kenpo school in my hometown that does not do any sparring *AT ALL*. What's with that? Kenpo involves contact, and I'm willing to bet my bottom dollar that most of those students would freeze up if attacked on the street because they haven't learned how to respond to pressure. Doing choreographed techniques (in which you know what the attack will be before it occurs) just won't cut it. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## MJS (Aug 9, 2005)

Shotochem said:
			
		

> This topic has got me thinking, is there such a thing as too much contact?  What is the happy medium?  We all have to go to work the day after. where is the line between effective and ineffective?



The contact IMO should be gradually introduced and gradually increased.  To aid in the safety factor, I see nothing wrong with putting on a glove and throwing a punch towards the student.  2 things are going to happen: 1) He's gonna get hit or 2) he's gonna move.  At least if there is contact made, there will be some cushion.  This will also aid in giving the student that "real" feeling, by creating the proper midset of what they'll actually face outside the dojo.  Same thing with a choke defense.  I've had people, in training, choke me and it felt more like a shoulder massage than a choke.  Constantly pulling the attack is doing more harm than good IMO.  

I agree with you though, we all have to work the next day.  Nothing wrong with picking up the pace, but imagine what people will start to think if we walk into work with black eyes, a broken nose, etc.

Mike


----------



## Seabrook (Aug 9, 2005)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> However, once you reach orange belt, he'll progressively start to increase the level of contact till about Brown belt. At that point, you should be taking close to full power shots to targets like the stomach and ribs.


I highly doubt that by brown belt (or any belt for that matter) one should be able to take "close to full power shots to the stomach and ribs". A "close to full power shot" to the ribs would likely break them, and a shot that hard to the stomach...well, just ask a physician. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Seabrook (Aug 9, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.


Doc,

I am going to print this off right now, and read it to my students at the next class. That is hilarious, but so darn true.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## jaybacca72 (Aug 9, 2005)

actually jamie you would be suprised how hard of a shot to the midsection you can take. for example when i worked out in systema they teach that the pain comes from fear and once you realize this you can take an enormous amount of contact when learning how to distribute the impact through out your body,you have to see it in person to understand just like sub 4. vlad will actually have you put your hands behind your head and strike your mid section with a 60% blow with a bokken and we even trained with towing chains two feet in length i know we are a crazy bunch.
later
jay
ps don't knock till you try it hehe! artyon:


----------



## MJS (Aug 9, 2005)

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> actually jamie you would be suprised how hard of a shot to the midsection you can take. for example when i worked out in systema they teach that the pain comes from fear and once you realize this you can take an enormous amount of contact when learning how to distribute the impact through out your body,you have to see it in person to understand just like sub 4. vlad will actually have you put your hands behind your head and strike your mid section with a 60% blow with a bokken and we even trained with towing chains two feet in length i know we are a crazy bunch.
> later
> jay
> ps don't knock till you try it hehe! artyon:



Here is a thread related to what you're talking about.  Looks interesting.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25245

Mike


----------



## dsp921 (Aug 9, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.


Doc beat me to it, this is exactly the analogy I was going to make when I first saw the subject of this thread. I don't know how many times my first instructor said "You can't learn to swim without getting wet".
I feel there has to be contact made when training in martial arts. You need to feel what it's like to hit and be hit. Doing a technique in the air (which is pretty much the same as doing "at" an uke without contact) is nothing like actually making contact. Where I train, being an uke isn't just about throwing a punch or grabbing someone, it's also about getting used to being hit. Do we use full force? Of course not. But we do make enough contact to get an honest reaction from the uke, that way you can see how they really react and what openings actually get created. Much different then throwing kicks and punches to the air. Might as well be square dancing if you're not making some contact. The street is not the place to discover what it feels like to get hit or how techniques flow differently when making contact with body mass.
Just one guy's opinion....


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 9, 2005)

Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
  well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
  or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything 
  bad i'm not jumping up and down.


----------



## Kenpodoc (Aug 9, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
> well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
> or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
> bad i'm not jumping up and down.


Systema tends to look contrived on video. It is effective and in my opinion a good adjunct to kenpo. I like the way they learn to take strikes, they start very light and slowly increase the speed and power. Both the striker and the recipient are learning during the exercises.  This is also done in Kenpo but it is less directly addressed and as such many have missed the importance of training the Uke side of the techniques.

Part of training in the martial arts is getting hit. Otherwise it is just dance (or gymnastics). I respect dancers, thay can be great athletes but they are not martial artists.

respectfully,

Jeff
P.S. Lonekimono, the bold font you use is shouting in the land of computers. It makes your statements jarring and distracts from their content.  I'm sure it's unintentional but in computer speak it comes off as grandstanding.


----------



## MJS (Aug 9, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
> well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
> or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
> bad i'm not jumping up and down.



Hi George!!

I'll start off by saying that aside from what I've seen and read online, I have not seen Systema live and in person.  Its hard to get a 'feel' of something from a video.  It reminds me of Aikido..very flowing, using the persons energy against them, etc.  Very different of course from arts such as Kenpo and the FMA's such as Kali and Arnis.  Their approach (Systema) is not one that I would choose to take, but if it works for someone, thats fine.  IMO, there is something to be learned from all arts.  If there is something that interests me and I can take it and add it to my tool bag, I'm getting that much better.

Just my .02

Mike


----------



## hammer (Aug 9, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey mike i went to the site and looked at the video's(did you see them?)
> well if you did please tell what you think of what they were doing.
> or what anyone thinks of them?? without being rude or saying anything
> bad i'm not jumping up and down.


Cool clip,
Here is another clip that may be of interest from the Yang Mian System, here in Australia.

Steel body,http://www.yangmian.com/SteelBody.asp Scroll down to the bottom of the page to veiw clips, Titled ...Brett's Steel body practice on Machine....... the other Clips on this site are worth a look specially the elbows/and students freestyling.



Every time I see them I think ouch!!






Cheers
Hammer


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 9, 2005)

thanks hammer, but that font is in herei just clicked on it, but if it is what you say it is than i won't use it anymore..
  and mike i understand, when u get some time please call me.


----------



## Brother John (Aug 9, 2005)

The way we train IS the way we react. If you never make contact, you'll never be able to deal with the eventuality OF contact. If you never make contact, you won't be very good at delivering force, never gain skill in accuracy....because if all you do is stop a strike short of making contact, then you'll get very very good.......at missing.

Your Brother
John


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 9, 2005)

Hey hammer i just went and watched the videos and i want to say this
  it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
  but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming
 i:e like a real street fight, now don't get me wrong , what he did is great for demo's and i know it shows that he could take a hit.


----------



## IWishToLearn (Aug 9, 2005)

> "to understand what a strike is , you must know how a strike feels"


 Quoting Master Elmer here...had to cause I like that analogy almost as much as Doc's .


----------



## hammer (Aug 9, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey hammer i just went and watched the videos and i want to say this
> it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
> but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming
> i:e like a real street fight, now don't get me wrong , what he did is great for demo's and i know it shows that he could take a hit.


I totally agree, 

Mr Elmer, 

Could you share with us, what training methods dose American Chinese kenpo. (Your organization) apply, to prepares its students for the same type situation,*"to take a hit, when they dont know its coming ?" *







Cheers
Hammer


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 9, 2005)

Well i'll tell you, in my school what i do is when a new student walks in ,
      (u know u talk to them and they join)
 ok now what i do is show them FHS(front horse stance) and then the starblock, then (and this is with everyone) i talk about if they ever had a fight on the street? then after a little bit in one of the classes i go up to everyone of my students and ill push them so they go falling back(i have someone behind them) then i show them what it's like to get hit in the chest, face, head (open hand) after i do this they look at me and i say what are you going to do? the person out there don't care how you feel or anything else about you or your family or friends, if they want that gold chain you have on they will
 take it, then after a while (after they learn the tecq we do line tecq,it works for me, and i'll tell you and this is just me talking about my school,my people will hit when they have to. but you have to remember all this is done with the kenpo training that i went though(alot by the book)
      i could keep going, i hope this helps a little


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2005)

Simon Curran said:
			
		

> Good points well made:asian:
> 
> And you may well be correct, but this is coming only from my personal experience, I have been rocked by shots in training but never (up to press, and hope it continues thus) been rocked by a punch in the street (I used to work in the liqour licensed trade...), but I agree that one should never say never.




I would say that in the dojo students are more likely to use proper stances and rotational energy, whereas on the street under stress this is less likely to occur, and your opponent may not have knowledge of proper punching techinque, and that may make the difference. So I don't disagree with you, and my experiences often mirror your own, there just isn't the mental emotional component in the dojo that there is in the street, and that's all I was trying to convey.


-Rob


----------



## DavidCC (Aug 9, 2005)

We used to ahve 3 schools, now we have 2.  This idea of going light to avoid losing students was one of the reasons he could not keep students.  I was told by the instructor that this was what he was doing, light contact and also minimal physical challenge/workout/sweating.  My own wife quit because she did not think that it was worth her time to go that route, she would rather just go to the gym and work out.

So that and some other bad choices drove him out of business.  Which was to bad I really liked the guy and I think he was a great artist.  Just not such a good businessman.  Was he a good teacher? Well, his school closed, and when I moved to one of our other locations I had a LOT of catching up to do.  I was one of the top students at the closed school, and I sucked LOL!

So now the school I am at requires learning contact, at increasing degrees, starting on day one.  The only exception is for the pee-wee classes of 4 and 5 yr olds.  They only contact kick shields, not each other.  We have no trouble retaining students. 

If somebody is too timid to touch other people or be touched, isn't that the kind of thing that a good MA school should be helping them to overcome?  Isn't that why they came?

-D


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 9, 2005)

thank you david i forgot i don't do that stuff with the pee-wees
 i show them how to stick a finger in the eye(u can use finger set to help)


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> If somebody is too timid to touch other people or be touched, isn't that the kind of thing that a good MA school should be helping them to overcome?  Isn't that why they came?
> 
> -D




Bingo.


-Rob


----------



## Simon Curran (Aug 10, 2005)

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I would say that in the dojo students are more likely to use proper stances and rotational energy, whereas on the street under stress this is less likely to occur, and your opponent may not have knowledge of proper punching techinque, and that may make the difference. So I don't disagree with you, and my experiences often mirror your own, there just isn't the mental emotional component in the dojo that there is in the street, and that's all I was trying to convey.
> 
> 
> -Rob


We agree, you just managed to articulate it better than me.:asian:


----------



## Seabrook (Aug 10, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> it is easy to take a hit when you know its coming,(just like in the video)
> but its another thing all together when you don't know when it's coming


Exactly my point Mr. Elmer.....well put.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## jaybacca72 (Aug 10, 2005)

the video only touches the surface of the topic,when we train at vlad's in toronto you do a mass attack scenario like a gang fight you will have two or three guys and about 20 attackers. as you go amongst the crowd you have to learn how to roll with the shots and you never see them coming you learn to transfer the energy by the feel you recieve at the point of contact.
like i said if you have never experienced it in person you truley will not understand what i am saying.
the video has only one piece of the pie.
later
jay


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 10, 2005)

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> the video only touches the surface of the topic,when we train at vlad's in toronto you do a mass attack scenario like a gang fight you will have two or three guys and about 20 attackers. as you go amongst the crowd you have to learn how to roll with the shots and you never see them coming you learn to transfer the energy by the feel you recieve at the point of contact.
> like i said if you have never experienced it in person you truley will not understand what i am saying.
> the video has only one piece of the pie.
> later
> jay


 well jay frist let me say that if i ever get into something where 20 guys are beating me up than ,,well i got my butt beat, look don't take this the wrong way but there are alot of people in here (myself) that has been in the arts for a long time, so for you to say "if you have never experienced it in person" what do you mean by that?? if what you do works for you, than all the best,but (and this is me talking) i was not moved by your video's
 and oh yes having been in alot of street fights i know what it's like to have things come at you fast, so sorry and have a nice day


----------



## jaybacca72 (Aug 11, 2005)

george i don't know what you are talking about you have never seen any footage of me i think you are referring to jay bugg from texas?
the topic here is being hit and i was relating a training concept that systema uses for this topic not a i know everything and you don't post. i have no idea where you got your perception about my post infact you never even really read what i was trying to convey.
much later
jay artyon:  %-}


----------



## MJS (Aug 11, 2005)

Guys, lets chill a bit and return to the main discussion.  There was obviously a misunderstanding here regarding the clips.  We have some good discussion going here, lets not let a misunderstanding ruin it.

George, just to clarify a point:

The clips in question are not of Jay, but of Paul Genge, a Systema instructor as well as a member of this forum.  I believe Jay was simply talking about his own training that he has done in Systema on his own time.  As I had said in another post regarding your question to me about my thoughts on them, I think that its pretty hard to get a true feel for something from a tape.  Of course we're all entitled to our own thoughts on the art of Systema but IMHO we really can't get a true idea unless we 'feel' the techs. ourselves.  It certainly is a very big difference from the art of Kenpo.  

The clips, just like a SD tech. are showing/giving an idea or a possible response.  Techniques IMO should not be set in stone, but instead used as a foundation to help the student build off of.  Ultimately, we do want want to have to think about a tech. but instead react accordingly to what is thrown at us.  

Anyway....back to the discussion.  

Mike


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 11, 2005)

Thanks mike, i will say to jay that i'm sorry , i though that was him in the video going though the moves,so jay i'm sorry for that,
   i got a PM from someone telling me that i went after jay , like i said to this person when i say something about what i see soneone gets there felling"s hurt. you know how many times people have come after me about one thing or the other?? alot!!! , but it's going to 94 today and i have to work in it so lets all have a good day.


----------



## MJS (Aug 11, 2005)

Not a problem my friend.   If I had a dollar for every time there was a misunderstanding, especially on a forum, I'd be a wealthy man!  As for the different arts out there...there certainly are some that peak my interest and others that I'm gonna stay far from.  I am more than happy with the arts I train in, and I don't see myself heading to a Systema school in the future.  I'm not saying its a bad art, just something that does not meet my needs at this time.  Would I take the time to see in person, what its all about?  If I found myself at some point in my life near a Systema school, I just might drop in.

As for the heat...dude, its killin' me!!!!  Fortunately I work inside, so I can avoid it, but I definately feel for the ones that have to be out in this!

I'll give ya a call next week!

Mike


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 11, 2005)

i hear you, talk to u later, i tried to call u and your mailbox is full:idunno:


----------



## jaybacca72 (Aug 11, 2005)

no problem george, and for the record i dabble in systema but my mother arts is and always will be epak. if you combine systema concepts with kenpo you will see what i mean. i actually went to a knife show in toronto and it was around the corner from vlad's school so i stopped by and enjoyed what they were doing and to train with vlad at his school only cost $7.00 cnd and i never left the class ever without being soaking wet from sweat(i showered of course). 
later
jay artyon: 
ps i weld outside this week so i can relate george with you on the temps.


----------



## lonekimono10 (Aug 11, 2005)

thanks for the come back jay, u know i said this to someone else a while back, it is very hard to say how u feel and how people take what u say
    on these things, but anyone who knows me will tell u that i say what i feel.
    and as for the kenpo training like you said , and i will say the same thing
*kenpo is my mother art*, has been for 40 years.
    now don't get to messed up with this heat wave, they said it's # 5 for the season.
    talk to u soon.


----------



## marlon (Aug 12, 2005)

Rob, thank you for your well orgaized replies!!  Thanks to everyone i have forwarded some of these discussion to the instructor in question

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Thesemindz (Aug 12, 2005)

marlon said:
			
		

> Rob, thank you for your well orgaized replies!!  Thanks to everyone i have forwarded some of these discussion to the instructor in question
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon




Always happy to help man.


-Rob


----------



## Kenpo_man (Aug 13, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> If you want to be a good swimmer, you have to get in the pool. If you get in the pool, you WILL get wet. Or you can stand on the sidelines nice and dry, and tell everyone what a great swimmer you are.


You always say it so well!!!:ultracool  

My guess is that this guy is afraid of looking bad and losing students. I learn the most when sparring with my instructor because he points out my weaknesses by capitalizing on them. Seeing as I don't want to get hit over and over the same way, I end up changing my game. A less skilled fighter just couldn't do that.


----------

