# Poomsae applications



## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2011)

In reality where fact become indulged by the meer thought of a real life stituation: does the application of so many years ago inside a poomsae really worth the bother? Let take the Palgue, deeper stances for the most part but was developed so many years ago. The Tae Gueks, norrowers stances a little more modern but still over thirty years ago developed. Now if TKD is alway revolving into a better art both spiritually and physically should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?

I am looking forward to some real talk about why the KKW, ITF or any other org out there does not really look into developing an higher need for real life poomsae for the common person training.


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## puunui (Apr 9, 2011)

I think that it is difficult enough to try and get everyone to do the forms that we already have in a consistent standardized fashion. It would be impossible if we kept changing the forms every few years based on the latest fashion.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 9, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> ...should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?
> 
> ...real life poomsae for the common person training.


 
Terry, I've spent a lot more time in the real world than studying Taekwondo, so would you expand on this a little on the need you see and any thoughts on what the new stuff might include or look like? 

Thanks,
Carl


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Terry, I've spent a lot more time in the real world than studying Taekwondo, so would you expand on this a little on the need you see and any thoughts on what the new stuff might include or look like?
> 
> Thanks,
> Carl


 
Carl I really do not know, I mean everything changes over time. In TKD we have develope the kick so it is more dynamic and powerful. I mean everyday atleast here in Texas it seem somebody gets carjacked or mugged and even robbed. Would knowing application that could or maybe even help somebody in the event this happens.

As far as what it would look like I guess more like a re-action to the action that occurs that will help you get out of it without really getting beat down. Now I know it sounds like one steps could possibly do this or two and three steps. I just know that if TKD or any other art gets revolving I would hope that application would as well, maybe that is why we have SD, so it can take that place.


What brought this up was a decussion I was having on a conference call talking about a poomsae seminar that this instructor was having and he promised for some new application that would be for the modern day real world, so I thought I would bring it up here for some intelligent fedback. I am considering going to this seminar with this other instructor. I do not know him and never heard of him but he has been inmy state for a long time go figure. 

Beside I thought this might be a great converstation for the forum section.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 9, 2011)

Terry, I have found the stances (particularly the deep palgwe stances) to be very important in making self defence techs work for 'real life'. It was interesting at our training camp the other week where one of our 5th dans was taking a self defence class on the beach. This particular 5th dan is a detective for his day job and is using the self defence techs daily in his line of work so I really enjoy hearing his perspective on them. At one point I was working with a yellow belt on a defence against a wrist grab, the yellow belt was trying to use brute force to make the tech work, it was sort of working but in real life I dont think it would have been very credible. At that point the 5th dan walked over and said to the yellow belt that what he was doing was correct but his stance was all wrong. He told him to try it again but to remember the stances from palgwe 2 and to have nice deep stances and drop his weight accordingly. Well, he did it again and I landed very quickly on the sand face first and very nearly had a broken wrist. All he did differently was the stance and it made the world of difference. When I ask the higher ranking black belts why their self defence techs seem to be so much more effective and quicker than the lower belts they all tell me it comes from doing form over and over again. The more I learn the more Ive found this to be true. You can show someone stances, but to really ingrain it into their movements so it will happen subconsciencly form is the way to go in my opinion. As far as actuall specific movements go, I know someone who used the wrist grab defence from palgwe 8 to effectively get away from someone who was dragging them by the wrist, they were female against a much larger male attacker and they said it worked very easily.


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## dancingalone (Apr 10, 2011)

I do not think TKD forms (whether you are talking about KKW or ITF ones) need to change drastically to incorporate modern and plausible applications.  The applications just need to be thought up of to begin with and then taught in a comprehensive fashion!  My opinion why they do not seem to exist in a mainstream way is because the various TKD leadership in any of the TKD orgs have not found the idea of retroactively fitting good applications to the forms to be an important thing to do.  They seem content to let this be something individual instructors add on if they are interested in doing so.

But perhaps that is the way it should be?  Form applications can and should be rather personalized to fit the personality and physical characteristics of the martial artist.  This way the material becomes theirs more likely so than learning something rote and generic.

There is a hammer fist strike in one of the forms I practice.  Most people interpret it as a hammerfist to a sensitive spot like the temple or the collarbone, which is a fine application.  But I like the practice this part as sort of a 'bridge hand' which is used to close the gap between opponents and then gain entry for a subsequent strike.  It works for me because I have the size, reach, and strength to use it against most anyone short of a WWE wrestler, but I could see someone with other physical traits having difficult executing the same idea.

Maybe the idea of 'updating' forms from a top down perspective is ultimately fruitless.  It should be from bottom up ideally, yet this cannot happen if we participate in sport where technical standards must be by definition firm and standard.


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## Master Dan (Apr 10, 2011)

Terry,

All you ever needed to know is with in all the Poomse's or Kata's but Organizations will never give that to you because they themselves do not know or try to distribute that in an organized way because it is a huge job for them to just try to get everyone globally on the same page to the basic method. Applications can very as much as 12 or more variations of a single technique not to mention before dealing with differences in anatomy or size of oponent in real life situations.

The knowledge you seek comes from studying under a master or GM who has that knowledge not an organization unless it is a one man organization so to speak who speacializes in applications. Even simple one steps can be broken down expanded with unlimited posibilities 10, 20, 30 years down the road. To those who want to say there are no applications beyond the party line? fine live long and prosper but the bottom line is what works and has to work for each individual based on thier abilities both mental physical, mental and spiritual. 

You have to have an open mind not dug into a commitment to a preconcieved allegiance to the robotics of only one way to perform or what to think about when doing PoomSe. Critical narrow performance of PoomSe for competition or rank advancement is just one of many multiple sides of each PoomSe Kata or anthing else you want to call it.

You can read and study alot and learn the theory but to become comfortable with applying it you need to train one on one with someone who knows at least a few times a year and then incorporate that with in your own training methods and especially experiment with many types of people and sizes. 

You wil find that your students will enjoy doing PoomSe and learning it when they have developed enough to earn the right to learn more. I am not going to name names or organizations on this forum you can get this help with. You will improve your own personal self defense and that of your students dramatically faster than trying to  convince a global organization to change thier direction. If you want to PM me I will give you several sources and individuals you can go direct to for help.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 10, 2011)

IMO, the obvious issue with taegeuk 1-8 is the focus on front kicks and virtually no other kicks.  There are 2 roundhouses and no back kicks for instance.  If any kick should be the "core" kick, it's the roundhouse (to varying heights, from the knees to the head) and not the front kick.


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## Master Dan (Apr 10, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> IMO, the obvious issue with taegeuk 1-8 is the focus on front kicks and virtually no other kicks. There are 2 roundhouses and no back kicks for instance. If any kick should be the "core" kick, it's the roundhouse (to varying heights, from the knees to the head) and not the front kick.


 
Really? and what part of the foot are you using?Instep?? and what specific nerve points are you activiating in an ascending or descending angle? are you activating any nerve points with hands prior to striking with foot or activating with foot then finishing with one or two specfic hand activations or manipulations?

Please expand more for us?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 10, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> Really? and what part of the foot are you using?Instep?? and what specific nerve points are you activiating in an ascending or descending angle? are you activating any nerve points with hands prior to striking with foot or activating with foot then finishing with one or two specfic hand activations or manipulations?
> 
> Please expand more for us?


I don't understand your questions.  I am saying that in almost all martial arts, the roundhouse (in its many variations) is the bread and butter kick.  I don't know why the taegeuks 1-8 have virtually all kicks being the front kick.


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## dancingalone (Apr 10, 2011)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I don't understand your questions.  I am saying that in almost all martial arts, the roundhouse (in its many variations) is the bread and butter kick.  I don't know why the taegeuks 1-8 have virtually all kicks being the front kick.



Maybe the people designing those forms liked Okinawan karate.  Mae geri or the front kick is the staple in most styles of Okinawan karate.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 10, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> ...  Now if TKD is alway revolving into a better art both spiritually and physically should poomsae not be updated to what is a growing need for real world application?
> 
> I am looking forward to some real talk about why the KKW, ITF or any other org out there does not really look into developing an higher need for real life poomsae for the common person training.


 
If you are looking into a "Why" I certainly do not spek for any organization. 

I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement.  I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense. 

I believe there are at least 2 other important purposes from a Chang Hon perspective:
1. To have beauty in movements. 
2. To have movements that physicaly an mentaly challenge the student to achieve a certain stnadard.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 10, 2011)

Thanks for clarifying, Terry.



I look first at the traits needed to be effective in a fight once it starts (I'm setting aside situational awareness and lead-up, since we're looking at technique). I see:

no mind/action with aware mind--the mental discipline to stay alert, act, and not freeze. In top performance under pressure the mind is clear but doesn't interfere.
whole body technique--using stance and good body mechanics together to maximize power at the point of impact
balance--being able to move and respond in multiple directions and deliver maximum power without leaving yourself overcommitted afterward.
fluidity--part mental and part physical practice, it's being loose and not tight, which of course is faster and less tiring.
I see these traits in skilled martial artists. My forms practice is important but is only part of becoming skilled. Good topic to get me thinking about how I practice my forms too. I agree with Earl's point about progressive physical and mental challenge for students, but don't think that goes against your idea of searching for bridges between memorized sequences and the real world. What about developing situational step-defense responses--for example sitting in a car (chair), in a bathroom stall/phonebooth (enclosed space), or at a urinal/counter (hard surface in front)? Maybe by playing some with these as chunks of technique, you might assemble them into a 'confined spaces' form. I don't see creative teaching as conflicting with the forms we do for rank or organization.

Carl


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## Master Dan (Apr 10, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> If you are looking into a "Why" I certainly do not spek for any organization.
> 
> I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement. I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense.
> 
> ...


 
I also believe that thier are many reasons and levels for doing PoomSe and Kata all of which include yours above but I narrowed the comments to SD because Terry's original forum post was only dealing with what he considered real life applications and why the organizations were not promoting that and if they could be changed?


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## puunui (Apr 10, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> My opinion why they do not seem to exist in a mainstream way is because the various TKD leadership in any of the TKD orgs have not found the idea of retroactively fitting good applications to the forms to be an important thing to do.  They seem content to let this be something individual instructors add on if they are interested in doing so.



I believe so too. 



dancingalone said:


> There is a hammer fist strike in one of the forms I practice.  Most people interpret it as a hammerfist to a sensitive spot like the temple or the collarbone, which is a fine application.



There is a hammerfist strike in the Taeguek poomsae, but I was taught it was a strike to the top of the head. Coincidentally, Hapkido also has a similar downward knife hand strike, which is also to the top of the head, which I believe was taken from a downward sword strike, to the top of the head. I do agree that perhaps that application would be harder for someone much shorter than their attacker, and would have to be modified.


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## puunui (Apr 10, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have to say that my first issue with regard to the above is that I do not agree with the statement.  I do not accept the premise that patterns are solely meant to be for practice of Self Defense.




When I attended the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea, ten years ago, we were taught that when doing a middle block with the rear hand, your hip is at a forty five degree angle aligned with the front leg and your upper torso was also at a forty five degree angle aligned with the front hand, essentially forming an "X" with the lower hips and upper body. I asked the instructor why and he said that there were health benefits from twisting your body in such a fashion, similar to the health benefits to similar poses in yoga. You wouldn't get those types of health benefits if your kept your hips and shoulders square like many practitioners do. There were some participants who strongly objected to such X twisting, stating that the correct way was with square hips and shoulders, for maximum power and leverage in a self defense situation. 

I guess I would be more interested in doing the poomsae easter egg hunt, looking for applications in the form movements, if I didn't have a background in Hapkido. My instructor, who was on the committee that created the Kukkiwon poomsae, would show me applications which were straight out of Hapkido. He also studied Hapkido, with the same teacher that I have. 

In Hapkido, we study the self defense applications directly, which leaves me free to find alternative uses and benefits to poomsae outside of the self defense aspects. I don't feel there is any benefit in reverse engineering applications into the poomsae, like some people do. 

Having said that, I am not against such practices. I just choose not to.


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## puunui (Apr 10, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> You have to have an open mind not dug into a commitment to a preconcieved allegiance to the robotics of only one way to perform or what to think about when doing PoomSe.




Or what to think about when doing poomsae, no doubt you are making a vague, somewhat negative reference to the poomsae explanations that I posted a while ago. But at the time, you were very interested in those explanations, and wanted them all. Did you find them all, or are you still missing a couple?


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## Master Dan (Apr 11, 2011)

puunui said:


> Or what to think about when doing poomsae, no doubt you are making a vague, somewhat negative reference to the poomsae explanations that I posted a while ago. But at the time, you were very interested in those explanations, and wanted them all. Did you find them all, or are you still missing a couple?


 
As usual you think the sun revolves around you my statement had nothing to do with you at all and in fact its more a qoute made by specific grand masters I study with and help teach seminars. You did however add to what I and others posted before you that it is not the focus of the KKW to train or teach applications beyond basic in the forms and that would come from training one on one with a master or GM that chooses to share that information with you. Our GM was accomplished in Hapkido and Judo and I am sure a % of that is included in all our basic TKD. However since he was a prominent student of Mas Oyama he had a certain disdain for Hapkido he would mention that fighting was like fishing here you want my had or wrist go ahead it like bait chuming the fish. GM did after many years acknowledge the benifits of PP and higher level applications but he would call it fee sytle and did not want it shown to anyone with out having very good basics first. 

As usual you see my name and look for a way to personally atack me always off topic. You always acuse everyone of being uneducated or not walking in the same worthy lite as you. Well study the forum rules again.

You think you got something you can hurt me with?. My 2nd daughter died after 8 years of tourture and $4million in medical, My six year old daughters mother was just killed this Thanksgiving drowning after falling through the ice and they searched for 10 days to find the body with video cameras and fishing hooks, its a miricle we many times don't find the bodies here or its months even years later. A few weeks ago I just found out my oldest son 27 may only have 6 months to live due to a rare lung disease and will likely die with out a lung trasplant from St. Vincents. 

I have spent the last 16 years of my life teaching poor and abused youth for free and before that another 15 years in areas none of you could survive in giving almost everything I own to it and your wonderful Korean born higher rank forced me into launching a program to 15 villages before it was funded promicing financial help and it never came I lost everything I owned and my business never to recover paying all the bills until there was no more left. 

TKD is about survival about giving to others serving something you seem to be devoid of beyond your arogant pontificating. You have made many enemies of those who truly know me what I have done for many years they consider you evil. 

There were times I just wanted to lay down and not get up, and when you ranted at me soon after Barb was killed I wanted to get plane ticket and find you at a national event face to face but I have a 6 year old child to raise and many others whos lives depend on me so shut up or not don't bother with your atacking PM's Grow up its about time or continue to post about your nice clothes your nice car and how you beat up drunks in bars and atack defensless taxi cab drivers.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 11, 2011)

A couple of words of advice master dan, "ignore him". I used to get sucked into his games and eventually chose to ignore him. The only way you will get along with him is to accept that he knows everything, and anybody who thinks differently either A) doesnt know what they are talking about, or B) is only a low ranking tkd student and hasnt come around to 'his way of thinking'. I have shown his posts to my seniors (many higher ranked than him) and they all had a good laugh. Fortunately, he gave me the old "to me you no longer exist" line, so he no longer responds to my posts.


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## Master Dan (Apr 11, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> A couple of words of advice master dan, "ignore him". I used to get sucked into his games and eventually chose to ignore him. The only way you will get along with him is to accept that he knows everything, and anybody who thinks differently either A) doesnt know what they are talking about, or B) is only a low ranking tkd student and hasnt come around to 'his way of thinking'. I have shown his posts to my seniors (many higher ranked than him) and they all had a good laugh. Fortunately, he gave me the old "to me you no longer exist" line, so he no longer responds to my posts.


 
In ordinary times his comments to me or about me would mean nothing but the stress of the launching of joint Korea Alaska Village programs nearly killed me I was going to quit TKD for life over all the betrayal. His jumping in making snap shot judgments on me was more than I could bear at one time. However I decided on advice of others I had nothing to be ashamed of and I chose to take what was good from it and learn to restart again. 

How much I would love to smell grass or see trees or live in a nice home and have a nice car but I gave all that up almost two decades ago and I cannot leave. The children of this region are neglected abused raped and killed. The lack basic life skills to even take advantage of basic education. They had to build a $5 million dollar house to house 26 of them for 2 week periods for eduction but what they basically learn is how to cook a meal do thier laundry. Every student I teach is one more who survives to have a good life. Just two weeks ago I looked out my window at 3 am from screaming figured it was drunks again and 5 month old baby in a diaper was crawling outside in the snow screaming and no adult to pick it up. I called the cop shop get your *** her now and I showed him the door it belonged to. 9 hours later at noon I hear the mother screaming laying in her door and the baby crawling right out into the snow again. I took pictures I called the cop shop bitched them out for not doing thier job turned them into child services and the troopers long story short they got investigated and the mother got charged with child endangerment but it would have been swept under the rug or anther kid dead. I have one niece in one village her 19 year old boyfriend killed her 7 month old by shaking it and after he was sentenced she hung her self becasue she thought they would be comming for her she was 17. The same village a 23 year old boy drove his snow machine in the same hole Barb was killed in two week later and they have never found his body. My most senior student's brother in law was killed three weeks later never found walking back from the village to his cabin we are pretty sure eaten by Polar Bears. In the last two years I have had so many friends and neighbors die its bizzare even husband wife two weeks apart and most all with out warning even one froze out side his house 6 weeks ago because he got dropped off by the cab and did not have his key. My students found him when they came in the morning to pick him up for his birthday. I have outlived so many people but outliving your children and two wives seems to be to much for words. We surpased all communities in the US in suicides last February 2010. If I work hard and keep my head down we hope to build a two story non profit training center with living area and rentals above to cover overhead still teaching for free but giving the youth of this region something they can take pride to train in. My six year old is a real joy and she is in her 3rd year of school and very smart we do everything together every day but now I have to make my will and make arrangements to insure her education and that she will not be forced to live in a village if I die. 

thank you for your kind words

The philosophy of Jidokwan that we were taught was that its not about wining but survival not giving up getting back up never stop learning.


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## miguksaram (Apr 11, 2011)

> ...your wonderful Korean born higher rank forced me into launching a program to 15 villages before


Just curious, but how were you forced?


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## Manny (Apr 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Maybe the people designing those forms liked Okinawan karate.  Mae geri or the front kick is the staple in most styles of Okinawan karate.



My way of thinking is..... the poomsae like the kata is some kind of combat againt imaginary oponents, Am I right? well confronting several oponents I will keep the things very simple, why use a high kick (dollyo chagui) that can be grabed by an oponent, or why use spining hook kick that can be deflected and grabed? instead I will use powerful trusting front kicks to try to keep the bad guys at bay.

Yes, the front kick is the easiest kick but is one of the hardest to block, besides the ball of the foot is such an impact area well suited to take the breath or any muger if done properly.

Manny


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## StudentCarl (Apr 12, 2011)

Terry, having thought about this some more, I think poomsae isn't the right tool to try to change to add more defense applications. In class we use a lot of different training tools and methods in addition to forms: shields, paddles, bags and boards to develop different aspects of striking, line drills, partner drills, one-steps, and sparring drills from specific scenario to free sparring, etc. Forms are great for developing focus of the mind and for emphasizing quality of technique. I get how they can be seen as fighting an imaginary opponent, but I think there are better ways to train for defense than trying to make them into real defense training. It's like trying to use a screwdriver for carving: it is 'kinda' like a chisel and you can do some things with it in a pinch. If you want to, you can even hammer and grind, forge and sharpen your screwdriver to make it into a carving tool, but it makes more sense to save it for screws and just pick up a knife or chisel.


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## dancingalone (Apr 12, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Forms are great for developing focus of the mind and for emphasizing quality of technique. I get how they can be seen as fighting an imaginary opponent, but I think there are better ways to train for defense than trying to make them into real defense training.



It depends on your forms training methodology.  Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form.  Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication.  These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.

Many Japanese karate styles, including Shotokan, just do not have the same type of forms training, preferring to focus on kihon (basics) and sparring.  TKD follows Shotokan in this respect.

As a happy outlier in the TKD world, I am slowly introducing some of the kata-based training gleaned from Okinawan karate into my TKD class.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It depends on your forms training methodology. Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form. Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication. These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.
> 
> Many Japanese karate styles, including Shotokan, just do not have the same type of forms training, preferring to focus on kihon (basics) and sparring. TKD follows Shotokan in this respect.
> 
> As a happy outlier in the TKD world, I am slowly introducing some of the kata-based training gleaned from Okinawan karate into my TKD class.


 
Thanks, I probably should have specified. As a colored belt I'm doing Taegeuks, which I think are more about progressive development of stance and technique than application, though the higher Taegeuks have chunks that I think transfer well. I just don't think the Taegeuks were designed with the uses Terry is talking about in mind, but as a 1st gup my only qualification is to consider forms training as it compares to my other activities in the dojang.


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## dancingalone (Apr 12, 2011)

Carl, if I were a betting man, I would be willing to wager with your proposition.  That indeed, the Taegeuks (or the Palgwes or the Chang Hon forms) were NOT designed to teach martial application in the sense that karate-ka now use the term 'bunkai' to represent.  On the other hand I don't see why a new canon of SD tactics could not be invented around the Taegeuk poomsae.  They're just a collection of physical motion.  Any creative master who understands the principles important in his combat system could attach multiple layers of meaning to any sequence of movements.


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## Archtkd (Apr 12, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> As usual you see my name and look for a way to personally atack me always off topic. You always acuse everyone of being uneducated or not walking in the same worthy lite as you. Well study the forum rules again.
> You think you got something you can hurt me with?...


 
I'm not taking sides, but should a thread about Poomsae application meander to this sad and personal points? It shouldn't matter who started the downward spiral, but I think we can all agree that there is a point at which things get out of control and make us all sound strange, to say the least.


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It depends on your forms training methodology.  Okinawan karate generally has paired drills using movements from kata, at least on a rudimentary level with basics like blocking and countering as in the form.  Instructors and schools with more depth in this facet will have more and more applications of increasing sophistication.  These drills are regarded as part and parcel of kata training.




Can you give an example? Also, is it your understanding that the above methodology has always been part of the Okinawan practice of the martial arts?


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I'm not taking sides, but should a thread about Poomsae application meander to this sad and personal points? It shouldn't matter who started the downward spiral, but I think we can all agree that there is a point at which things get out of control and make us all sound strange, to say the least.



I remember a conversation I had with Juan Moreno back when he was still an OTC resident athlete. We were talking about the importance of steps in Taekwondo competition sparring. He said that some people would argue that you didn't need steps. They would then spar at OTC and he would use steps to continuously score while the other person would get madder and madder, trying more and more outrageous stuff in an effort to prove their point. These people felt that OTC was an "evil" place that did not teach the proper form of Taekwondo because of its deemphasis on poomsae, failing to grasp that the OTC Head Coach was a 10 time poomsae National Champion in addition to his other accomplishments. 

Now no one really argues about the necessity of the use of steps in competition sparring, but back then it was radical stuff that people vocally opposed. I think we are also coming to the point where no one will really argue about stance length or width in poomsae, something that was a big deal. 

As for poomsae applications, I do think that the first step is to understand the proper mechanics of the actual movements before going off on applications. I see too many out there choosing to concentrate on triple warmer pressure points with this or that angle, and you have to activate this point by doing this or that, when they cannot even do the poomsae in which they are getting that application correctly in the first place. 

But we are getting there. In the meantime, those who are attempting to lead the way will continue to have rocks thrown at them by those who enjoy and/or need the darkness. It just comes with the territory, so don't worry about it. I don't. It's not like any of the rocks are actually hitting their mark.


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## dancingalone (Apr 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> Can you give an example? Also, is it your understanding that the above methodology has always been part of the Okinawan practice of the martial arts?




Got class to go to, but I was able to find this in a few seconds of googling.  It's somewhat unsatisfactory as there is not a extremely obvious example of kiso kumite based on a kata, but you can see some basic movement/basics built off kata.  Also, the sensei shows some bunkai.

[yt]wILi_VpkzFs[/yt]

People argue about how long this type of kata training has been going on.  My own teacher says it has always been part of Goju-ryu (granted Goju-ryu only exists under that name since the early 1900s so we're not exactly talking a long time here).  He is a Jundokan man and he says they practiced what we now call bunkai back in the sixties though they did not call it that then.  You can look at the writings of men like Toguchi, Seiko, a pre-WWII student of Miyagi, Chojun and come out of it arguing that bunkai was also known to him although he didn't call it as such.

It's largely unknown what actual practices Higashionna, Kanryo brought back from China that he taught to Miyagi, Chojun.  However, it's very interesting to read the various articles published by Mario McKenna Sensei, one of the few practitioners of Tuo'on-ryu, which is Higashionna's style passed down without the changes Miyagi himself made.  From the articles I've seen from Mr. McKenna, I tend to believe defined kata applications have also existed within his style from at least the same time Goju-ryu acquired them, whenever that was.

There are some interesting posts from Victor Smith, an Isshin-ryu man, on the karate board where he argues the opposite position that Okinawan karate 'bunkai' wasn't taught explicitly and that it was more a process of self-mastery.  I respect his research and knowledge, but I disagree at least with respect to my own line of Goju-ryu.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 12, 2011)

puunui said:


> What's old is new again. "wax on wax off" "Pick up Jacket....."
> 
> Learn the concept and understand 100 applications. Learn 100 applications and understand one concept.


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> What's old is new again. "wax on wax off" "Pick up Jacket....."
> Learn the concept and understand 100 applications. Learn 100 applications and understand one concept.




Wax on, wax off is a good example. Remember how angry Daniel san was because he went there expecting to learn karate but instead felt like Mr. Miyagi's slave? Many students are like that, except that they leave before realizing or understanding their teacher's point of view and the lesson to be learned, and end up bad mouthing both their teacher and their seniors as a result. But take a step forward and then everything is seen in a whole different light. Most of my time as a teacher is spent trying to get the student to take that step forward.


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## zDom (Apr 14, 2011)

My thoughts after wading through some interesting discussion and some ... bizarre contributions:

 My thoughts are that poomse are not necessarily supposed to represent a fight with a imaginary attackers so much as it is a series of movements practiced as a unit intended to be trained with the INTENSITY and FOCUS that one would have in a combat situation.

 I think front kicks are a GREAT choice for a self defense situation. If you are defending yourself, the attacker is coming after you. A roundhouse kick does not stop an inbound attacker. A front kick (or a sidekick, which is found in Koryo) WILL stop an inbound attacker's movement toward you.

Roundhouse kicks are great for destroying someone who is stationary or retreating, but if they are coming at you, there is a good chance they will knock you on your *** if you try to roundhouse them.

 The best fighters I have trained with (and I'm not talking sport, I'm talking "if I had to mix it up with THIS guy ...") have ALL been EXCEPTIONAL with their poomse.

I don't know WHY it works exactly, as they don't really free fight in a way that resembles poomse, but I am convinced through 20 years of personal experience that 

training poomse with the intensity of fighting real attackers 

and carefully considering whether each technique would be effective against an attacker (if they happened to be in the location at the right time and place for that particular technique)

results in solid fighting ability.

Again, I don't know why it works  and really, I don't need to know why. But I DO know: it works.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> People argue about how long this type of kata training has been going on.  My own teacher says it has always been part of Goju-ryu (granted Goju-ryu only exists under that name since the early 1900s so we're not exactly talking a long time here).  He is a Jundokan man and he says they practiced what we now call bunkai back in the sixties though they did not call it that then.  You can look at the writings of men like Toguchi, Seiko, a pre-WWII student of Miyagi, Chojun and come out of it arguing that bunkai was also known to him although he didn't call it as such.
> 
> It's largely unknown what actual practices Higashionna, Kanryo brought back from China that he taught to Miyagi, Chojun.  However, it's very interesting to read the various articles published by Mario McKenna Sensei, one of the few practitioners of Tuo'on-ryu, which is Higashionna's style passed down without the changes Miyagi himself made.  From the articles I've seen from Mr. McKenna, I tend to believe defined kata applications have also existed within his style from at least the same time Goju-ryu acquired them, whenever that was.
> 
> There are some interesting posts from Victor Smith, an Isshin-ryu man, on the karate board where he argues the opposite position that Okinawan karate 'bunkai' wasn't taught explicitly and that it was more a process of self-mastery.  I respect his research and knowledge, but I disagree at least with respect to my own line of Goju-ryu.




It doesn't make sense to me that the Okinawan practitioners back at the turn of the century or earlier would simply do kata without working on at least some applications of that kata. Why would a practitioner spend all that time practicing kata and working with the makiwara and not want to work some two man applications? I don't know if Judo and kendo was in Okinawa back then, but I would think that would have gave people at that late date of some ideas for rudimentary sparring. They didn't need to wait for Funakoshi Sensei to move to Japan to start that process.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

zDom said:


> A roundhouse kick does not stop an inbound attacker. A front kick (or a sidekick, which is found in Koryo) WILL stop an inbound attacker's movement toward you. Roundhouse kicks are great for destroying someone who is stationary or retreating, but if they are coming at you, there is a good chance they will knock you on your *** if you try to roundhouse them.



One way to use roundhouse kick against someone rushing you is to side step and roundhouse kick at the same time. Daniel san in the original Karate Kid movie did it as I believe his first move at that all valley tournament. Daniel san is on my brain because he is a competitor on Dancing With the Stars this season. I hope he wins. 




zDom said:


> The best fighters I have trained with (and I'm not talking sport, I'm talking "if I had to mix it up with THIS guy ...") have ALL been EXCEPTIONAL with their poomse. I don't know WHY it works exactly, as they don't really free fight in a way that resembles poomse, but I am convinced through 20 years of personal experience that
> training poomse with the intensity of fighting real attackers and carefully considering whether each technique would be effective against an attacker (if they happened to be in the location at the right time and place for that particular technique) results in solid fighting ability.



I think it has to do with the natural talent of the practitioners. I think being skilled at actual fighting or competing is harder or more challenging than performing solo poomsae. So they have an easier time learning forms.


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## Archtkd (Apr 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> One way to use roundhouse kick against someone rushing you is to side step and roundhouse kick at the same time.


 
Great technique. The way I do and try to teach this is to move foward -- in to meet the attacker -- at a 45 degree angle while firing the kick.


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## dancingalone (Apr 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> It doesn't make sense to me that the Okinawan practitioners back at the turn of the century or earlier would simply do kata without working on at least some applications of that kata. Why would a practitioner spend all that time practicing kata and working with the makiwara and not want to work some two man applications? I don't know if Judo and kendo was in Okinawa back then, but I would think that would have gave people at that late date of some ideas for rudimentary sparring. They didn't need to wait for Funakoshi Sensei to move to Japan to start that process.



That's my thought too.  I haven't run across a Goju-ryu or a Shorin-ryu dojo yet that didn't have some form of explanatory promise and bunkai kumite to help explain the movements in kata,  even if it is only at the surface block/punch level.

<shrugs> I'm sure you've read the stories about some of the Okjinawan masters finding excuses to test their karate in real combat.  I don't know whether that is evidence for the affirmative side or not that they did have paired kata drills back then.


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## zDom (Apr 19, 2011)

I agree that angles are great way to use roundhouse in sparring.

I believe in self defense, however, which was the situation specified, I prefer the 

K.I.S.S. principle.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2011)

zDom said:


> I agree that angles are great way to use roundhouse in sparring.
> I believe in self defense, however, which was the situation specified, I prefer the K.I.S.S. principle.




Side step roundhouse against a charging opponent does follow the KISS principle.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> That's my thought too.  I haven't run across a Goju-ryu or a Shorin-ryu dojo yet that didn't have some form of explanatory promise and bunkai kumite to help explain the movements in kata,  even if it is only at the surface block/punch level.
> 
> <shrugs> I'm sure you've read the stories about some of the Okjinawan masters finding excuses to test their karate in real combat.  I don't know whether that is evidence for the affirmative side or not that they did have paired kata drills back then.




The Chinese Martial Arts that got blended into Okinawan Martial Arts have two man sparring or two man set work, so that is additional evidence. Why would they take the movements and not the exercises or training methods?


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## Archtkd (Apr 19, 2011)

zDom said:


> I agree that angles are great way to use roundhouse in sparring.
> 
> I believe in self defense, however, which was the situation specified, I prefer the
> 
> K.I.S.S. principle.


 
I don't want to turn this into what kick is better than which, but I get the feeling that you've little appreciation for the efficiency and power of a roundhouse kick, when thrown by someone who knows what they are doing.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 19, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I don't want to turn this into what kick is better than which, but I get the feeling that you've little appreciation for the efficiency and power of a roundhouse kick, when thrown by someone who knows what they are doing.


I agree. The problem is that when people talk about kicking in 'real life situations', they are usually referring to people who cant kick or really havent done much kicking. A roundhouse kick executed by someone who knows what they are doing has devastating results, as do many other kicks that people say "wont work on the street".


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## zDom (Apr 21, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> I don't want to turn this into what kick is better than which, but I get the feeling that you've little appreciation for the efficiency and power of a roundhouse kick, when thrown by someone who knows what they are doing.



Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing 




ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree. The problem is that when people talk about kicking in 'real life situations', they are usually referring to people who cant kick or really havent done much kicking. A roundhouse kick executed by someone who knows what they are doing has devastating results, as do many other kicks that people say "wont work on the street".



Yea, many people do. But I can kick, have been doing a minimum 3,000 or 4,000 kicks per month for about 20 years. Probably done close to a million kicks now. Is that enough?

But you are both mentioning "someone who knows what they are doing."

What percentage of martial art students would that be? I am hearing the implication that just because I suggested a front kick might be a better choice for inclusion in forms, that I might not know what I am doing  Usually I'm on the other side of this discussion* I think kicks are VERY viable for defense for those who know what they are doing. 

But what I'm asking in this thread is, Should forms be designed for the highest or lowest denominator?

Do you think a white belt knows a roundhouse well enough to use it in self defense? Or by their third form?


The fourth Taeguek has two side kicks in it. And that beloved roundkick is there, too: at the sixth Taeguek.

I appreciate the roundhouse. I think it is the front kick that is underappreciated.


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## puunui (Apr 21, 2011)

zDom said:


> Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing




Your six foot muay thai bag, does it swing off the ground or does the bottom touch the ground? As a general rule, we kick the bag with the bag suspended off the ground, but now the MMA people they hang the bag and rest the bottom on the ground. they say it gives a more realistic feel to kicking the bag. I used to think it was odd to have the bag touch the ground to the point where the bag bends, but now I am getting used to it.


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## puunui (Apr 21, 2011)

zDom said:


> Yea, many people do. But I can kick, have been doing a minimum 3,000 or 4,000 kicks per month for about 20 years. Probably done close to a million kicks now. Is that enough?




You're getting there.  But seriously, I don't think too many students today are going to come close to those kinds of numbers, especially out of a commercial dojang with 45 minute classes. The only ones perhaps are those who are elite level competitors.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 21, 2011)

zDom said:


> Don't feel that way. Ask anyone who has ever seen me fold a muay thai 6-foot bag in with my roundhouse: pretty sure I know what I'm doing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree totally with what you are saying. My response was in regards to the k.i.s.s principle. I believe that for someone who can kick properly a roundhouse is 'keeping it simple'. I have always been taught that you should do a minimum of 1 hour outside the dojang for every hour in the dojang.  Most people I train with adhere to this, so if we do 500-1000 kicks in class a week, then we should be doing a minimum of 500-1000 kicks a week outside of class, totalling a minimum of 1000-2000 kicks per week. I wasnt referring to white belts, my personal belief is that you should be very wary of throwing any kick in a real life situation until you are very proficient at them. I wouldnt be handing a tkd black belt to anyone who does not have very fast, accurate and powerful kicks. Fortunately, my instructors and GM feel the same way. Once kicking is at that sort of level I would find doing a roundhouse kick to be "keeping it simple".


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## Gnarlie (Dec 26, 2011)

So, given that this is a poomsae applications thread, I'm going too post some _*suggested*_ applications for the KKW Yudanja poomsae 'Koryo'.  Comments / opinions / discussion / alternative applications are welcome.  I'm working with the following assumptions to help me keep an open mind:

1) The movements have a chequered history -they may or may not be named as what they actually are
2) Any number of applications may exist for any movement, some more realistic than others
3) Sequences of movements may or may not be in a practical order in the pattern
4) Effective efficient movement is key to realistic self defence - if it effectively incapacitates in a simple way, then it works
5) Having any application is better than having no application.  If it works under pressure, then it works.  It doesn't matter so much whether it was the original intention.
6) High kicks may represent something other than a kick, and can be readily modified to adjust distance, sweep, knee, obstruct
7) Movements in the patterns are highly stylised.  Under application, they are allowed to get messy.  The amount of rotation (for example) may be reduced.
8) Certain movements are to illustrate specific principles, but they should also have a practical application
9) Perceived attacks may not be (are unlikely to be) martial arts based, but a straight punch or grab without any deep stance
10) Chamber motions may be used to block / cover / grab or pull

The slash / denotes alternative applications

*Movement 1 - Tong Milgi Joonbi "Tube Pushing"*
Hands on the sides of the head, eye gouge with the thumbs / Hands on the sides of the head, gouge to pressure points under the cheek bones / Knife hand strike to both collarbones / Release from twin wrist grab from behind /Representation of a frontal wrist lock / Ki gathering (!)

*Movement 2 - Twin Knife Hand Block*

Defensive stance at distance (not a block) / Blocking wrist with front hand / Blocking a right punch with the chamber motion, capture the wrist with the rear hand and strike to the neck under the opponent's arm / Blocking a left punch with the chamber, strike in at the carotid sinus area.

*Movement 3 - Double 'Side Kick'*

Kick to knee (solid or distraction), then kick to body or even thigh (head is impractical for me) / Low kick hooks behind closest leg to sweep on the pull back, second kick launches opponent whilst they stagger / Low kick takes out undercarriage whilst arm still held, middle kick chamber used to deliver knee strike to floating ribs (never actually using the kick), with a view to continuation with the next technique on the step down.

*Movement 4 - Outward Knife Hand Strike*

Outward knife hand strike to side of neck or base of skull / After the close knee, the front leg steps down next to the opponent, the chamber hand grabs the opponent's shoulder and the elbow of the straight striking is used to sweep the arms of the opponent clear and push him off balance into the defender's front leg, exposing the solar plexus for the following punch.
*
Movement 5 - Punch*

Punch to the solar plexus / The chamber hand (the one previously Knife Hand Striking) grabs the shoulder, pulling back to waist chamber, whilst the punch is driven into the floating ribs or other available vital point (e.g. liver)

*Movement 6 - 'Inward Block'*

A purely defensive inward block / The chamber hand grabs the opponent's hair or back of collar, pulling back to the hip, whilst the right hand delivers the inward block to the side of the now prone opponent's neck or elbow (which can end up locked against your neck as you pull)

Should I carry on?  Has anyone alternatives to offer, I'd love to exchange or expand ideas for this or any other KKW pattern?


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## Gnarlie (Dec 26, 2011)

I'd love to see an 'application exchange' thread here, across disciplines, Korean or otherwise.  Does this exist and can anyone direct me to it?

Also, that last inward block can be used on the larnyx, not just the side of the neck.  Anywhere in that general area.


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## mjustus (Oct 30, 2013)

This is exactly the kind of thread I am looking for as well. I am an instructor and constantly get asked about what we are actually doing in our poomse. Does it all mean something and so on? Being the instructor they look to me for the answers and I hate that I don't have the answers to give them. Is there some sort of official "this is that and that is this" for each movement in the kkw forms? I don't want to just guess and give the students bad information is the right information is out there. If it is a open to interpretation kind of thing then I can do that as well, but again, would loe a thread devoted to this where we can all collaborate to find the best answers. New to the site, btw. Thanks for reading.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 30, 2013)

The official KKW position is that there is no bunkai in the poomsae. 
On the other hand, can you really not come up with at least a few examples of how each and every movement or combination can be used in a real life situation?
A "low block", for example, can be used to deflect attacks from the ribs on down. It could also be a hammerfist to the groin. Or...


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## Master Dan (Oct 30, 2013)

mjustus said:


> This is exactly the kind of thread I am looking for as well. I am an instructor and constantly get asked about what we are actually doing in our poomse. Does it all mean something and so on? Being the instructor they look to me for the answers and I hate that I don't have the answers to give them. Is there some sort of official "this is that and that is this" for each movement in the kkw forms? I don't want to just guess and give the students bad information is the right information is out there. If it is a open to interpretation kind of thing then I can do that as well, but again, would loe a thread devoted to this where we can all collaborate to find the best answers. New to the site, btw. Thanks for reading.



You will never find an official sanction interpretation from KKW the Dart Fish DVD's of the PoomSe's are the best quality productions of the forms ever made however they refuse to make new ones since they started the international master instructor license training and test outside Korea since they made many changes to the PoomSe's they don't want to give it to you in a dvd they want you to pay to attend a seminar. Back to the issue you go to the DVD section that says applications and it is the same old boring party line of kick punch block because they never knew it in the first place. You have to get with those of us who do seminars under George Dillman or Jack Hogan. Books are fine source of information I recommend Kyusho Jitsu The Dillman method of Pressure Point Fighting and Advanced pressure Point fighting for a very well rounded knowledge base of anatomy and applications but as always you cannot gain skill from a book you need hands on with a master in this the books will open your mind but hands on experience is a must. Also as in all MA there is much that is never printed and never exposed to the public. Knowledge is passed on by trust and loyalty. Having trained with the GM's and their prominent students I can tell you that all of them will demonstrate basic go to application but there can be as many as 12 or more variations to any single movement of a PoomSe and all of them will say what works is what matters these are suggestions you may find a particular variation that works better for you and all things change based on the situation and physiology of the person you are dealing with. Also there is a total difference of what works with a compliant partner compared to a person under actual duress that is why you need to transition quickly or apply in such a way the gives them no warning or is opposite of what they expect. In Hapkido or in this case a softening hit to put attention in another area or gain release in order to get to what you really want. Energetic applications or cross diuranal hence cross meridian activating 1-3 points with manipulation.

To those that say well I can bend or break a heavy bag so what? what happens when your 40 50 60 70 won't matter anymore what if your sick or tired gross motor skills combined with bonki applications will give you that edge and isn't more fun to teach and practice PoomSe when it becomes a real living thing able to protect yourself through the ages not a robotic Montra? Got to the seminars spend some money and time it will be worth it. The head of the AAU in SF. A professor and a great Jidokwan master openly teaches applications related to the PoomSe and is very open. Keep searching Keep learning no one has ownership of our hands and feet to say it is only this way or that in SD. Tradition Competition and Rank Advancement are all other issues that will not keep you warm at night or save you from harm when the chips are down.


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## mjustus (Oct 30, 2013)

I have no problem coming up with my own interpretation. I just didn't want to give my students wrong information if the "right" info was available. The school I work for has no clue about the forms' applications and they don't really seem to care since knowing wouldn't make them more money. But that's probably for a different kind of thread. 

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Master Dan (Oct 30, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> The official KKW position is that there is no bunkai in the poomsae.
> On the other hand, can you really not come up with at least a few examples of how each and every movement or combination can be used in a real life situation?
> A "low block", for example, can be used to deflect attacks from the ribs on down. It could also be a hammerfist to the groin. Or...



There are no blocks all is offensive strikes Down Block in not the downward hand as the primary but the finish,the returning hand to chamber is the first action that is manipulating an extremity with one or more PP and the opposite hand or arm is a finish strike specifically to a point to finish and energetic move or cross diruranal cross meridian strike.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 31, 2013)

Master Dan said:


> There are no blocks all is offensive strikes ....................



Wow. And all this time when someone tried to kick me or punch me and I blocked them I was doing a non existent technique?   If what I used didn't exist I wonder what stopped them from making contact?  MUst have been what I learned at some of those Dilman seminars where he was teaching the no contact stuff. 






oops


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## Archtkd (Oct 31, 2013)

Master Dan said:


> You will never find an official sanction interpretation from KKW the Dart Fish DVD's of the PoomSe's are the best quality productions of the forms ever made however they refuse to make new ones since they started the international master instructor license training and test outside Korea since they made many changes to the PoomSe's they don't want to give it to you in a dvd they want you to pay to attend a seminar.



That's not true. That whole paragraph is fiction. The Dartfish DVD set is not the most current official Kukkiwon DVD set, nor is it "the best quality."  The set was produced in 2003.The so called "many changes" to poomsae is a popular myth spread by the uninformed. Current Kukkiwon poomsae has had very liitle changes since it was created in 1972. 

Here are some good sources: 

1. The Explanation of Official Taekwondo Poomsae &#8211; by Ik-Pil, Kang. This is an excellent
book on modern Kukkiwon poomsae. It&#8217;s more detailed than the official Kukkiwon text, which I
would also recommend. The author, GM Ik Pil Kang, 8th Dan, is vice chairman of the education
committee of the Kukkiwon. Price: $30

2. The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae &#8211; published by the Kukkiwon. This is a good
textbook, which accompanies the official Kukkiwon poomsae DVD set. It&#8217;S very close in design
and detail to GM Ik-Pil, Kang&#8217;s book. $37

3. What is Taekwondo Poomsae, by Kyu-Hyung Lee. This books comes with a DVD. The
author Kyu-Hyung Lee, 9th dan, is one of the world's pre-eminent poomsae teacherrs. He's
professor at Keimyung University in Korea and was head coach of the Korean national team. He was just named president of the Kukkiwon.

Video/DVD Resources:

1. Official Kukkiwon Poomsae, 6-DVD Set &#8211; produced by the Kukkiwon &#8211; This is the authority
and reference guide for Kukkiwon poomsae. Performers in the set, first produced in 2007, are all senior Kukkiwon
leaders and instructors. Price is about $120 

2. There is a newer version of the Kukkiwon DVD set, compressed into only two DVDs and sells for about $20.


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## SJON (Nov 5, 2013)

Here is an interesting article on this matter:

http://jungdokwan-taekwondo.blogspot.com.es/2013/10/bunkai-in-taekwondo.html

I do teach pattern application myself in quite some detail, though I consider it a complement to my "core style", which is mainly impact-based.

Best regards,

Simon


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