# wing chun or ving tsun???



## The MMA kid! (May 13, 2006)

what's the diff?

who came first?

does similar name = same style?

which is more "hardcore"?


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## mantis (May 13, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> what's the diff?
> 
> who came first?
> 
> ...


come on man
these are accents from different languages!


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## yipman_sifu (May 13, 2006)

They are all the same. The difference came upon Yipman's disciples who had different names for the brand trademark. 

Wing Chun is the main name and the general one. Wing Chun as a brand was possessed by William Cheung:uhyeah: who claims that his Wing chun is the real stuff of the grandmaster Yipman. All other brands are not to the level, that's what William says about his Traditional Wing Chun. I personally beleive him at a percentage of 0%, of course just an opinion.
Check this and you judge. (read bcbernam qoute then read my reply to understand). http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=537873&postcount=29


Regarding Ving Tsun. Its a name that the majority of Yipman's disciples took. Wong Shun-Leung called it Ving Tsun to get rid of jealous other styles martial artist which lost to him in brawls called Wing Chun (WC) Toilet fist . He called it VT Ving Tsun or victory fist. 

Now Leung Ting called Wing Tsun as his brand. Leung Ting is the lineage I study under and it is the largest oranization of Wing Chun. www.leungting.com 

Regarding what is taught in these lineages. The concepts are all the same and the difference only exists in simple things. Don't ask me about William stuff because I don't know, I speak about the other Sifus and their schools.


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## ed-swckf (May 13, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> what's the diff?
> 
> who came first?
> 
> ...


 
No difference, both refer to the same thing.


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## The MMA kid! (May 13, 2006)

please take note that I know very little about wing chun lineage etc.

but why go back to yip man? he did not create the art, so why bring all ties back to him?


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## yipman_sifu (May 13, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> please take note that I know very little about wing chun lineage etc.
> 
> but why go back to yip man? he did not create the art, so why bring all ties back to him?


 
It is due to the fact that he was the first one to teach it publicly in HK.


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## fightingfat (May 15, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> please take note that I know very little about wing chun lineage etc.
> 
> but why go back to yip man? he did not create the art, so why bring all ties back to him?


 
He taught Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee sells. It's all about money unfortunately.


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## tkdduck (May 16, 2006)

Why go back to Yip Man?   Prior to him it was a fairly straight, some off shoots, but fairly straight lineage - passed down to one select master.  Then Yip Man goes public with Wing Chun.  Here we see the derivatives of the art take place Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun etc....  This is where the Art splits into different groups, at Yip Man we are still one Art for the most part.

I really couldn't care about Bruce Lee, when talking of the Art.  He was a student big deal.. what makes Yip Man the focal point is the split of the current off-shoots of the Art that was passed down.  It isn't a money selling point to say Yip Man, nobody cares that Yip Man trained him, they care about the "Name of Bruce Lee"  this is a selling point to Wing Chun verses some other arts possibly but once again that is of the Bruce name not Yip Man name.


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## Flying Crane (May 16, 2006)

tkdduck said:
			
		

> Why go back to Yip Man? Prior to him it was a fairly straight, some off shoots, but fairly straight lineage - passed down to one select master. Then Yip Man goes public with Wing Chun. Here we see the derivatives of the art take place Wing Chun, Ving Tsun, Wing Tsun etc.... This is where the Art splits into different groups, at Yip Man we are still one Art for the most part.


 
Hmmm... I don't think this is true.  there are other lineages of Wing Chun that never went thru Yip Man.  Wing Chun existed as an art for several generations before Yip Man was even born.  Many people practiced and taught Wing Chun, and they and their lineages never had anything to do with Yip Man.  There are differences between these systems, but overall they are still essentially the same.

Check out the book _Complete Wing Chun_, it examines the variety of lineages.  It doesn't promote one over the other, but rather just explores what they are, how they are the same, how they differ, and who is involved in them.


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## AceHBK (May 16, 2006)

I find it weird that people often mention William Cheung and Leung Tseng but never mention other such as Yip Man son who teaches in HK.  What is the reason behind this?  Why are LT and WC the only most named people when it comes to WC?


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## ed-swckf (May 17, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> I find it weird that people often mention William Cheung and Leung Tseng but never mention other such as Yip Man son who teaches in HK. What is the reason behind this? Why are LT and WC the only most named people when it comes to WC?


 
Marketing.  Some places will mention nothing but yip mans sons but they don't market themselves in the same way.


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## monji112000 (May 18, 2006)

Why start with IP man? its the same reason you start with the Gracies in BJJ. 

Other Wing Chun is vastly different. Its like comparing Apples and oranges. Just because they have the same name doesn't mean its really the same style.

How you spell then name isn't really important but some students of Ip man call their "version" by odd spellings to show they are not the same. I think you should take notice at their importance to make themselves standout. What are they trying to make up for? Everyone who says they have the "true" or the "real" Wing Chun is really just trying to sell you something. Someone who has learn any MA at a level to master it will normally have honor, respect and humility. 

Ip man didn't teach anyone everything he understood. Ask someone who really was a disciple they will tell you the truth. 


Bottom line Allot of people were students of Ip man, only a small amount of them really learned to fight. Even smaller amount learned a large amount of his style of Wing Chun. 


JMO


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## monji112000 (May 18, 2006)

Some people are not friendly with everyone one. Its all about who rubs people the wrong way. The onyl people who should be mentioned are Ip man and your Sifu. 
JMO


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

Ok Ive herd it all now if you look on the Ving tsun video it shows clips of Yip man & why is Ting always have some kind of cheep sound effect.To me as a telecom & martail artist that shows 2 things 1-lack of power or skill so they compinsate by sound effects2-If they have skill the cheep sound effects would be to attrack those not to skilled with the sound but again it dont sound like hard hits & lots of flapping of cloth sounds.As a student of Bruce Lee 1968-70 I can tell you that the Line of Wing Chun from Yip Man to Yip Chung to Stevie Swift is strong.Augustine Fong-Randy William and other including Ting follow the format-structure & teachings to the program & little differance is shown between the 2.Sure Bruce only got a white sash & quit.But he evloved the art to that which was to unite man as styles tend to separate by politics-rank ect.Note that the styles you speak of I have to say 1 quote from Bruce Lee(they start with a guess & then go to application trial & error.From there they go to being a way of set rules to laws & religions.This is were all students are doing repeating motion much like robots for the sake of look like the teacher-Not taking in the factor for size-weight ect & not ever one moves the same exact way,so you tend to loose faith in that style.Now Im not putting them down some are still combative & some became sport.Style tend to separate man-we all puc & kick the same.YOU CAN PUNCH AN ETHNIC WAY.Punch staight line-round & curve)Use no way as way.DojoSai


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## fightingfat (May 18, 2006)

O come on, Bruce Lee? 'Way of the Intercepting Fist'?? How much did this guy want to learn the third form???


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## tkdduck (May 18, 2006)

I have to agree to a point with monji112000.  Having done Tae Kwon do for 4 years and now doing Wing Chun.  The only one to me to start with is your Sifu, Sensei, or whatever your Martial Art calls your Instructor.  Everyone past him doesn't matter, because unless you go beyond him/her and explore your art, your style will Sifu xxxx style.  So the true answer to the question of which is best is After observing the Arts available in your area, which School has instructors that are knowledgable of their art, students are able to show they are learning and seems like a good fit for what you are looking for in a Martial Art


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

ok fightfat here is you answer  ( 0 ) Bruce got to white sash only but I saw the evolving he did & it was great.Bruce did know sil lum tao or sui nu tao there are many ways to spell it.But do you realy beleave fighting in a set patern or fixed ways can prevail as fight are 3-d & ever changing.You must be able to adapt to the enviorment & situation that occurs.


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## monji112000 (May 18, 2006)

why is Ting always have some kind of cheep sound effect


 Why not ask him? Maybe he thinks it helps.. didn't bruce lee do that too? If you look at Kung Fu styles making sounds and relating them to breathing is something like Chi kung. I personally think its BS.


 As a student of Bruce Lee 1968-70 I can tell you that the Line of Wing Chun from Yip Man to Yip Chung to Stevie Swift is strong.


 Your point being? My point was that it matters very little who the people were besides Ip man and your sifu. Every person's Wing Chun is going to be different its a abstract style.


 Augustine Fong-Randy William and other including Ting follow the format-structure & teachings to the program & little difference is shown between the 2.


 What program? NO set program was created by Ip Man. Each person that He taught personally was given something that was tailored for his attributes. This is the tradition of Chinese martial arts. I am sure as others took over the teaching things became more uniform. I got the very distinct impression that the actual classes and what close door disciples received was not the same quality. I am 100% sure that no Program was made by Ip man. A complete system was never passed down to anyone, so people had to use their own logic, experience, but some people got a large amount of his theories on fighting.


  Sure Bruce only got a white sash & quit.  


 Sorry no sashes/Belts in traditional Kung Fu. That includes Ip Man's Wing Chun. Actually I could be wrong but he came back to learn the second form. 


  Use no way as way


  I always enjoy Bruce's Philosophical stuff, don't really care for his Martial Arts.


  The only one to me to start with is your Sifu, Sensei, or whatever your Martial Art calls your Instructor


 Its just that some people feel like its a resume. Its not its simple a list of generations. I give full respect to all my teacher's teacher (both of them) and to Ip man.

artyon:


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

Nice Thats what is & few state (Honor & repect for sif or teacher)


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## tkdduck (May 18, 2006)

Since watching this forum, I have read alot of this line is better or this lineage or that line. Etc.  I have to say that it is such a waste of time, as much of it turns to my sifu can beat your sifu .

monji112000, like I said I agree with you in that your martial arts lineage plays little to do with a persons training, as what matters is the knowledge of, the skill to use, and ability to teach the Martial Art is what matters.  

As a Sifu a person can be a great skills person, but lack the understanding of what to use the skill for in a real situation, or the ability to teach the skills, which makes them of little use to someone wanting to learn.  

And then the 2nd part of the equation is your desire and ability to absorb what your Sifu has to teach you, and a desire to always be willing to learn, no matter where you are at, as opportunities can make themselves available to take your studies further.

Which one is more hardcore can best be answered with:  how are you the student going to learn, develop and continue to strengthen your skills to make yourself "hardcore"


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## fightingfat (May 19, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> ok fightfat here is you answer ( 0 ) Bruce got to white sash only but I saw the evolving he did & it was great.Bruce did know sil lum tao or sui nu tao there are many ways to spell it.But do you realy beleave fighting in a set patern or fixed ways can prevail as fight are 3-d & ever changing.You must be able to adapt to the enviorment & situation that occurs.


 
I don't think Yip Man gave sashes.

Wing Chun doesn't teach set patterns, it teaches FRAME. It's a developing idea, hence Sui Nim Tao- little idea way; from little ideas great things come. The system develops with Chum Kui- Bridge Seeking and adds motion to the correct frame. Bruce never learned the third form- Thursting Fingers, but if you know anything of that part of our art you will know that 'Way of the Intercepting Fist' is a pretty darn good interpretation of what's going on there!


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