# Infinite Insights #2:  Front flips and back flips



## Ceicei (Dec 22, 2003)

I thought about making this a poll, but decided not to at this time.

Since my dojo moved recently to a bigger facility that also teaches gymnastics and dance, my instructor wanted his kenpo students to become all-around physically fit (or at least as much as we can)--his philosophy is the more fit we are, the more capable of doing self defense.  

We are using some of the gymnastics equipment to strengthen us (plus other traditional tools such as jump ropes, weight equipment, and our bodies in push-ups, crunches, etc).

To that end, we are using Ed Parker's Infinite Insights book 2 as a guide and the aid of gymnastics coaches to help us learn to do these moves correctly, especially those on pages 136-139 (dives, front flips, and back flips).

Of course, there are some students that, for one reason or another, will not be going to that extent.  We just do as much as we physically can within our health and abilities. 

Anyway, I'm wondering whether other EPAK schools also train this extensively with all/most of the parts of the Infinite Insights #2?

Do you, as instructors, take lead as role models with these kinds of activities?

- Ceicei


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## Thesemindz (Dec 23, 2003)

At our school we practice shoulder rolls, forward rolls, backward rolls, barrel rolls, dive rolls, hand springs, hand stands, and cartwheels. We aren't a gymnastics school by any means, but minimum proficiency in each of these techniques is required for advancement. People with debilitating injuries are usually exempted from some of these activities, but they are still required to know how to perform them and when they are called for.

-Rob


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2003)

Usually I'd teach how to fall properly and the front and backwards rolling.  Its hard enough trying to teach students that, due to the fact that not everybody feels comfortable doing these movements.  I am not a gymnastics coach and have not had any training to teach people a dive roll, cartwheel, hand stand, etc.  Moves like these need to be taught to people correctly, otherwise serious injury could result.  Considering we live in a very sue happy world, I wouldnt want to take the chance teaching something that I'm not certified to teach.

Mike


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## Thesemindz (Dec 23, 2003)

I should point out that we teach back falls to white belts. Side and forward falls as well as shoulder and forward rolls to blue belts, and in place drops to brown belts. The rest of the things I mentioned, ie., cartwheels, dive rolls, hand stands, are taught at black and above. 

-Rob


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _*
> Our studio is using Ed Parker's Infinite Insights book 2 as a guide and the aid of gymnastics coaches to help us learn to do these moves correctly, especially those on pages 136-139 (dives, front flips, and back flips).
> 
> Of course, there are some students that, for one reason or another, will not be going to that extent.  We just do as much as we physically can within our health and abilities.
> ...



We always have used the "Infinite Insights" as a reference.  Keep in mind however, Ed Parker wanted to expand our thinking and not "bind" us with limitations, yet, also being realistic he knew not <all> individuals could do every maneuver possible.

In his books he wanted everyone to cover and look at all possibilities at categories with an open mind to see that there could be additional maneuvers that "for some" may be beneficial, even though the majority may never need or use them. 

There is material that is to be MASTERED, yet other material that need only to be "AWARE OF" due to the low possibilities of use in a realistic encounter.

Train to your extreme capabilities but be realistic when it comes to execution in the street.
:asian:


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## Ceicei (Dec 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *There is material that is to be MASTERED, yet other material that need only to be "AWARE OF" due to the low possibilities of use in a realistic encounter.
> 
> Train to your extreme capabilities but be realistic when it comes to execution in the street.*



Thank you for your excellent observation and your comments are definitely worth remembering....

- Ceicei


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 23, 2003)

Cartwheels? Flips? Anybody recall Mr. Parker ever doing these?

Personally, I can do them--but every time, my butt falls off and it takes a week-and-a-half to get myself re-seated.


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## Seig (Dec 24, 2003)

I think knowing how to roll and fall is imperative.  I have had to avoid some of it for a while due to an extreme lack of padding on my floors.  That should be rectified by week's end.  Do I teach flips?  No.  Do I teach things to people that some would go, "I ain't no gymnast"? Sure I do, when they are ready and if I deem them capable.


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## Nick Ellerton (Feb 19, 2004)

what i would like to know is how you can expect to execute a forward or a back flip in a realistic situation, it requires distance, timing etc. And up against someone to whom knows what they are doing in the street chances are it will not happen.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Cartwheels? Flips? Anybody recall Mr. Parker ever doing these?



At what point in his life are you asking?

 :idunno:


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## MJS (Feb 19, 2004)

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> what i would like to know is how you can expect to execute a forward or a back flip in a realistic situation, it requires distance, timing etc. And up against someone to whom knows what they are doing in the street chances are it will not happen.



Good point there.  I mean, all situations that you're most likely going to encounter on the street are going to be realistic, so you're right, why even bother doing them.  I mean, if people say, "Why go to the ground if you run the risk of mult attackers, glass, nails, etc.?" then why the hell would you want to do a cartwheel in the street???  Its no different than rolling on the ground in a grappling situation.

Mike


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2004)

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> I would like to know is how you can expect to execute a forward or a back flip in a realistic situation, it requires distance, timing etc. And up against someone to whom knows what they are doing in the street chances are it will not happen.



First of all ..... who ever said there were "ANY" expectations for any of the material ???????    All our material/curriculums are ...... are just exercises and examples of possibilities, mixed with logic and research suggesting a possible means to become more proficient at defending ones self through practice and   
study.   Just because you learn something, does not suggest you "WILL" have to use it.

It would really depend upon the exact salutation, the particular individual's abilities and circumstances now wouldn't it.   

As described, this acrobatic foot maneuver merits study as a "possible" maneuver in our broad repertoire of motion.  It however, does NOT mean that it is for everyone, just as other portions of our art are taught so as to be thorough in our research but yet not necessarily utilized to its fullest potential in actual combat, by many.  

Keep an open mind.... use and develop well, what is useful for yourself, yet do not hinder or hide material from those whom you teach ~ which may have different capabilities than yourself.  


 :asian:


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## dcence (Feb 19, 2004)

You don't know Kenpo unless you know the triple mobius sick air fakie grabbie -- oh, wait, that is snowboarding...


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> You don't know Kenpo unless you know the triple mobius sick air fakie grabbie -- oh, wait, that is snowboarding...



Corn ~ Ball!!!!

 :wavey:


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## Thesemindz (Feb 19, 2004)

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> what i would like to know is how you can expect to execute a forward or a back flip in a realistic situation, it requires distance, timing etc. And up against someone to whom knows what they are doing in the street chances are it will not happen.



For me the answer is that I train in martial arts, not martial combatives. Can Kenpo be used to defend one's self in a real street altercation? You bet it can, and I know people who have quite successfully. But it's not just about winning fights, at least not to me. If that was all I wanted, I'd go learn some kick boxing and take a class in WWII combatives and then train my butt off. Instead, I want to learn how to kick somebody's butt, and also learn how to do a jump spin rear kick. I want to learn the Dance of Death. I want to learn Beautiful Fighting. I can still palm someone in the face and kick them in the groin, but I haven't had to yet, and I may never be forced to. 

And like you said, flips require distance, timing, etc. Hmm, distance, timing, angles, posture, balance, coordination, proper body mechanics, sounds like the same lessons that make my lead hand jab that much more effective. The lessons in one translate to the other, just like what I learn in Delayed Sword helps me to defend against grabs, pushes, punches, kicks, hugs, holds, chokes, locks, weapons, and speeding cars.

-Rob


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## Rob Broad (Feb 19, 2004)

I have personally used Rolls, Falls, and Cartwheels in my everyday life.  I have wiped out on a bicycle and rolled out much safer than skidding across the ground.  In Canada we have lots of ice, and I have used falls to protect myself.  When I was a bouncer I was pushed from behind and cartwheeled form the forward momentum.  It was much better than falling to he ground.  

All 3 situations are versions of self defense.  In all 3 situations I defended my body from physical harm.  Self Defense is not always against an attacker.

There are also some good lessons that can be learned form the motion and concepts these activities teach.  They teach you about Spatial Orientation ( knowing and traveling through various spaces).  I know I would rather roll across the ground than fall if I had to defend myself, regardless of what the terrain is like.  I would rather roll quickly acorss some glass in my defense than lay there and be mounted in my defense on some glass.

But these are just my opinions.


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## dcence (Feb 22, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have personally used Rolls, Falls, and Cartwheels in my everyday life.  I have wiped out on a bicycle and rolled out much safer than skidding across the ground.  In Canada we have lots of ice, and I have used falls to protect myself.  When I was a bouncer I was pushed from behind and cartwheeled form the forward momentum.  It was much better than falling to he ground.
> 
> All 3 situations are versions of self defense.  In all 3 situations I defended my body from physical harm.  Self Defense is not always against an attacker.
> 
> ...



Those are good observations.  I use front rolls all the time when I catch an edge snowboarding.  It is much better than splaying out across the snow face first.  And Dennis thought I was kidding about the cross application between Kenpo and snowsports.  LOL


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

dcence said:
			
		

> I use front rolls all the time when I catch an edge snowboarding.  It is much better than splaying out across the snow face first.   Dennis thought I was kidding about the cross application between Kenpo and snowsports.  LOL



*D'ohhhh*


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## Nick Ellerton (Feb 22, 2004)

If the situation calls for the use of front flips backflips cartwheels etc then by all means do so, but if not, all i am getting at is if there is no need to apply a flip cartwheel or roll then do not go out of your way to do so.

cheers.


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## Rob Broad (Feb 22, 2004)

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> If the situation calls for the use of front flips backflips cartwheels etc then by all means do so, but if not, all i am getting at is if there is no need to apply a flip cartwheel or roll then do not go out of your way to do so.
> 
> cheers.



Then again, if a simple cartwheel would stop an attacker, or potentially dangerous situation why not use it.  But I wouldn't throw a back flip into a 5 Swords just for something to do.  They maneuvers are in the book to help us learn and understand elements of spatial orientation, locomotion, springs and landings.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> All I am saying is, that *"if"* there is *no need* to apply a flip cartwheel or roll then do not go out of your way to do so.  cheers.



Now that statement ... You can take to the Bank!!

I totally agree with you.

 :asian:


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Then again, if a simple cartwheel would stop an attacker, or potentially dangerous situation why not use it.  But I wouldn't throw a back flip into a 5 Swords just for something to do.  They maneuvers are in the book to help us learn and understand elements of spatial orientation, locomotion, springs and landings.



And you honestly think that doing something like that would work?? :idunno: 

Mike


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## Rob Broad (Feb 23, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> And you honestly think that doing something like that would work?? :idunno:
> 
> Mike



I have used a back flip to get out a charge for walking home intoxicated from the bar.  And I have used a backroll to instead of a technique from a push.  It just comes down to what a person feels comfortable with.  Just because something isn't conventional doesn't mean it is not effective.


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> It just comes down to what a person feels comfortable with.  Just because something isn't conventional doesn't mean it is not effective.



Very true.

Mike


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## dcence (Feb 24, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I have used a back flip to get out a charge for walking home intoxicated from the bar.



What did they want you to do?  Drive home instead? :idunno:


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## Rob Broad (Feb 24, 2004)

In Canada you can be charged with being intoxicated in a public place.  But I asked if I did a back flip would it prove I wasn't too intoxicated to walk home safely.  The police used target 6 or 7 people coming out of the bars towards the end of each monthto make sure they hit their quotas.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 24, 2004)

I used a shoulder roll in a self-defense situation outside a bar:

I was riding my bike home from a bar after last call one night.  Got hit by an SUV also exiting the bar.  Car fender hit my front wheel.  I rolled over the hood, bounced off the windshield, landed on my feet with a winshield wiper blade sticking out of my back pocket.   My bike wasn't so lucky.


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## Rick Wade (Feb 24, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I used a shoulder roll in a self-defense situation outside a bar:
> 
> I was riding my bike home from a bar after last call one night.  Got hit by an SUV also exiting the bar.  Car fender hit my front wheel.  I rolled over the hood, bounced off the windshield, landed on my feet with a winshield wiper blade sticking out of my back pocket.   My bike wasn't so lucky.



WoW, Easy Rider Kenpo  New Style?  just kidding, that's pretty awsome.

Rick :CTF:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 24, 2004)

Not quite Easy Rider...it was a bicycle, not a motorcycle.  

The poor guy who hit me didn't even see me until I bounced on his windshield.  He was so distraught when he got out of his truck...I thought he was going to puke.  People ran over from the parking lot and thought that he was the one who got hit!  

My front wheel and fork were ruined.  I stomped up and down on the rim to straighten it and pulled off the front brake so I could ride home.  My back was so sore the next morning from the bounce, I couldn't even get out of bed.  Scared the sh** out of me.  

Anyway, that was the 4th time in my life I got hit by a car on my bike!  I got glasses shortly after that, and I haven't been in any more bike/car accidents.


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