# Reverse Edge Grip?



## SFC JeffJ (Sep 26, 2006)

Anyone do this? 

I've saw some knife adds that say their knife can be used this way.  I'm guessing that it's holding the knife in a reverse grip (blade down) with the edge facing you. 

Seems like it'd be limited to trapping to me, but be devastating at that.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 26, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> Anyone do this?
> 
> I've saw some knife adds that say their knife can be used this way. I'm guessing that it's holding the knife in a reverse grip (blade down) with the edge facing you.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Jeff,

We practice this a little bit.  It is excellent for trapping and works great for Downward strikes as well.  It is even better for sentry removal techniques.  Personally if I had a choice in blade then I would have a double edge fixed knife that would allow me to do this.


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2006)

Pekiti Tirsia is known for reverse grip, blade backward techniques. I have become more and more convinced every time I speak with someone who takes this appraoch, including at a recent Dekiti Tirsia Siradas seminar. See for example:
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=356
http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=599


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 26, 2006)

Having it pointed backwards definately has some structural advantages.  For one we are stronger when pulling in with our arms rather than pushing away.  This definately helps in the trapping or downward striking motions. ie. it is easier to pull someone in rather than to push them away.  This same type of action plays very strong in sentry removal techniques as well.

However, if I do not have a double bladed fixed knife then I will generally have the blade out and only switch it if needed.  Both are good but the blade backwards does have some nice advantages that you can exploit if needed.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 26, 2006)

Just playing with my trainers, I'm finding it pretty easy to swith from the standard reverse grip to the reversed edge.  It's become one of those "why the hell didn't I think of that" things to me.  Especially as it fits in great with the jujitsu I do.

As far as sentry neutralization, I'm still a big fan of the good old kidney, so I'll stick with a regular grip for that, not that I'll be doing that anytime soon!

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 26, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> Just playing with my trainers, I'm finding it pretty easy to swith from the standard reverse grip to the reversed edge. It's become one of those "why the hell didn't I think of that" things to me. Especially as it fits in great with the jujitsu I do.
> 
> As far as sentry neutralization, I'm still a big fan of the good old kidney, so I'll stick with a regular grip for that, not that I'll be doing that anytime soon!
> 
> Jeff


 
Yes not alot of need for that!  The kidney strike is another excellent tool for that as well.


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## dok (Sep 26, 2006)

is reverse edged what's also called pikal/pakal?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 26, 2006)

Yes, that is the Filipino term for Reverse Grip edge in!  I do not use Filipino terms but that is it.


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2006)

Does pakal necessarily mean edge-in? I thought it just meant the reverse grip, with either blade orientation.


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## dok (Sep 26, 2006)

From what I understand - pakal is connoted to edge in within the MA community, but the word can mean either. 

there's a rather brutal description of a pakal/reverse edge in method here

http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/An Expression of Pikal.pdf


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 26, 2006)

arnisador said:


> Does pakal necessarily mean edge-in? I thought it just meant the reverse grip, with either blade orientation.


 
I have seen it used both ways on multiple occasions.  I have also been in on a conversation where the instructor said that it specifically refers to edge in.

My personal belief is that it is safe to say that you can use it both ways.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 26, 2006)

I train to use this method (and it's "sister" technique forward-grip, edge-in) almost exclusively (though I also like the standard "sabre" grip). I like it because your attack strikes are basically just hammerfists. As a result, it ties in well with empty hand and short impact weapon technique. I also really like the ability to hook and shear with the return stroke. The only drawback I can see is that the method doesn't lend itself very well to "duelling" or sparring. If I was facing someone who was also armed with a knife I'd probably go with sabre grip.


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## Guro Harold (Sep 26, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> The only drawback I can see is that the method doesn't lend itself very well to "duelling" or sparring.


I can understand this from the viewpoint of personal comfort and opinion, which I respect. However, I have seen some "nasty" fighting techniques from the pakal position.

For Arnis/Kali practitioners, imagine the "rolling elbows" or downward trapping hands with the pakal grip as the lead....


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## HKphooey (Sep 26, 2006)

Makes for a great inverted strike to groin! 

Strike to either kidney!

Strike to the side of the neck!

Pull back on the hammersting, back of the knee, neck!

And I love it for hooking any hand stikes or kicks (add a little slice as you pull away).

 :erg:


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> it's "sister" technique forward-grip, edge-in



You don't see this very often with a knife--more so with a longer blade.


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## KenpoTex (Sep 27, 2006)

Palusut said:


> I can understand this from the viewpoint of personal comfort and opinion, which I respect. However, I have seen some "nasty" fighting techniques from the pakal position.
> 
> For Arnis/Kali practitioners, imagine the "rolling elbows" or downward trapping hands with the pakal grip as the lead....


I don't doubt that there are techniques out there and people that can use them effectively in knife-on-knife situations. I guess I should have said "In my [limited] experience..." 



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> You don't see this very often with a knife--more so with a longer blade.


 I know there are techniques of this nature for longer bowie-style knives (back-cut). Is this what you're talking about?

This type of method was what I was referring to http://www.shivworks.com/PSP/ECQ knife work.pdf

Here's a knife that I carry that's specifically designed for this type of close-quarters, trapping/grappling work. As you can see, it's only sharpened on the top, or back edge. With the way I carry it, it can be accessed with a minimum of motion.


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 27, 2006)

That's a nice looking little knife.  Where did you get it?

Jeff


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## Blindside (Sep 27, 2006)

That looks like a Shivworks Disciple, a neat little knife.

Lamont


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks Lamont.

Jeff


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## KenpoTex (Sep 27, 2006)

It's actually a Shadowdancer made by Marc Goldsworthy It's similar in design/size to the Shivworks ClinchPick


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## SFC JeffJ (Sep 27, 2006)

Thanks for that Matt.  I'll check his stuff out.

Jeff


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## Blindside (Sep 27, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> It's actually a Shadowdancer made by Marc Goldsworthy It's similar in design/size to the Shivworks ClinchPick


 
Whoops!  Actually, I like this design (and his pikal) better than the Disciple.


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