# Does Kung-Fu have a poor public image?



## Tames D (Jun 6, 2007)

Personally I hate the image that some people have of my Art. I think the media has done a pretty good job of assisting that image. 

The Kung-Fu I know and love is a practical, down to earth, *** kicking fighting system. Not an acrobatic, fly through the air, while defending yourself against 25 armed attackers joke of a circus stunt. 

I feel that the general concensus of non martial artists (and some martial artists) is that it is not a serious fighting art. Maybe some of the movies produced are part of the reason? Maybe I'm being sensitive? Maybe I'm wrong?

Anyways, rant over.


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## Blindside (Jun 6, 2007)

Why blame the movies when wushu is being promoted they way it is, all acrobatic long-fist moves by folks who can't apply any of it.


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## oxy (Jun 6, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Why blame the movies when wushu is being promoted they way it is, all acrobatic long-fist moves by folks who can't apply any of it.



Because movies have a much wider audience; an audience which on average have a lower level of understanding than the demographic of informed martial artists which includes people such as yourself.

You should also read that other thread about wushu. It is modern wushu you are talking about, not wushu as it really stands.

Either way, modern wushu was not the cause of this either. A much older example is Chinese opera which was invented during the time of Mongol rule. They also contain sequences of acrobatised movements. Of course, they didn't have multimillion dollar budgets with national screenings, so their affect is not as noticeable nowadays.

To generalise, it is the attempt to appeal to the lowest common denominator that continues to produce these unrealistic public images.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Personally I hate the image that some people have of my Art. I think the media has done a pretty good job of assisting that image.
> 
> The Kung-Fu I know and love is a practical, down to earth, *** kicking fighting system. Not an acrobatic, fly through the air, while defending yourself against 25 armed attackers joke of a circus stunt.
> 
> ...


 
You're not wrong but since you can really do nothing about it, why let it get to you?

I let it get to me before and all it did was have a serious negative impact on my training.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> You're not wrong but since you can really do nothing about it, why let it get to you?
> 
> I let it get to me before and all it did was have a serious negative impact on my training.


 
Can't help but agree with XS on this one.  

Do what you do and don't worry what others think, I guess.

One of the unfortunate side-effects of wuxia-style movies and their slightly less fantastic relatives is that they encourage a certain type of person to take gongfu because they actually think they will learn to do some of these fantastic things.  Martial arts attracts wankers, can't be helped, but some of these people need to come down from the clouds and catch a breath.

Just so you know, I actually love gongfu movies generally, and wuxia in particular.  But they do have a strange effect on the perception of the art.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 6, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Personally I hate the image that some people have of my Art. I think the media has done a pretty good job of assisting that image.
> 
> The Kung-Fu I know and love is a practical, down to earth, *** kicking fighting system. Not an acrobatic, fly through the air, while defending yourself against 25 armed attackers joke of a circus stunt.
> 
> ...


Heh, if you think YOUR art has a bad image look at Ninjutsu! Those poor guys are _still_ trying to get rid of the stereotyped all black, masked, super-human abilities hollywoodized version of their art. Example... the recent Myth-Busters episode on Ninjas. Fortunately they had a (real) Ninjutsu instructor clear up some of those myths and unfortunately not enough time was spent on the real art itself.

I adore the recent Kung-fu movies that have come out... Fearless, Crouching Tiger, Hero et al. because they show us the legends, the mythology of ancient China. I know that standing/fighting on the very tops of bamboo trees and fighting off a zillion arrows is impossible... but I didn't care about that... it was beauty and poetry in motion. It also involved using a martial art that I love. 
Ignore the people who don't know how to tell the difference between mythology and reality. And ignore those who can't appreciate the differences. 
You know what's the truth about your chosen art. Stay with it and to blazes with anyone who thinks it's not a serious fighting art.


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## exile (Jun 6, 2007)

We SD-oriented TKDs can make the same sort of complaint: all people ever see  or hear about for the most part is the combat-ridiculous WTF style, with a couple of people in a ring dragging their knuckles on the mat or holding their hands limply at their sides whilst attempting to knock each other out with various parts of their feet hoisted a couple of meters above the ground... 

If you worry about what other people think of your art, all you'll get is a headache and fall into a never-ending bad mood. Life is too short for that.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 6, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Heh, if you think YOUR art has a bad image look at Ninjutsu! Those poor guys are _still_ trying to get rid of the stereotyped all black, masked, super-human abilities hollywoodized version of their art. Example... the recent Myth-Busters episode on Ninjas. Fortunately they had a (real) Ninjutsu instructor clear up some of those myths and unfortunately not enough time was spent on the real art itself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 7, 2007)

First of all, "kungfu" is not one art and even non-MAists know that much. Second of all, what is the point of stating the obvious? Most MA practitioners are LARPing. If you just complain here you are no different than them so get back to the training hall and prove everybody wrong.


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## pete (Jun 7, 2007)

how about just proving its value out on the mat. a friendly get together with martial artists of various styles to share, spar, and learn is usually a good experience for all involved. 

 if they are right, you will have learned something. if they are wrong, it will be understood. talk is cheap, feeling is believing.

pete


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## Yeti (Jun 7, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> First of all, "kungfu" is not one art and even non-MAists know that much. Second of all, what is the point of stating the obvious? Most MA practitioners are LARPing. If you just complain here you are no different than them so get back to the training hall and prove everybody wrong.


 
I disagree with your first point. Most non-MAs actually DO think the Kung Fu is one art, just like they think Karate is one art. Most folks don't really know there are many arts encompassed by the generic terms Karate and Kung Fu. 

I do argree (for the most part) with your second point. Honestly, I wouldn't let it get to me. You know what you train is useful so why let anyone else's opinion cloud that? Keep training and let people think what they want to think. Better yet, drag some of their a$$es down to a class and THEN ask them what they think if KF...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 7, 2007)

Movie images, Hollywood agrandizement, even modern Wushu, etc. have all played a part in the general publics idea of what Chinese Martial Arts are.  It has been going on a long time and in the west it took off with Kung Fu the series starring David Carridine. (plus other things)  The reality is that the Chinese Martial Arts image has been stereotyped to fit with some of the above by your average person.  All we can do is try and educate them and when possible show them what true Chinese Martial Arts are.


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## Jade Tigress (Jun 7, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Movie images, Hollywood agrandizement, even modern Wushu, etc. have all played a part in the general publics idea of what Chinese Martial Arts are.  It has been going on a long time and in the west it took off with Kung Fu the series starring David Carridine. (plus other things)  The reality is that the Chinese Martial Arts image has been stereotyped to fit with some of the above by your average person.  All we can do is try and educate them and when possible show them what true Chinese Martial Arts are.



Well said. :asian:


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## qi-tah (Jun 7, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Heh, if you think YOUR art has a bad image look at Ninjutsu! Those poor guys are _still_ trying to get rid of the stereotyped all black, masked, super-human abilities hollywoodized version of their art. Example... the recent Myth-Busters episode on Ninjas. Fortunately they had a (real) Ninjutsu instructor clear up some of those myths and unfortunately not enough time was spent on the real art itself.


 
Ha! Yeah, at least the average punter doesn't associate us with turtles... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





My best mate is always on at me about how boring ba gua looks - "it's too slow" and "not exciting enough - why so much walking in a circle? How does that help you defend yrself?" being the main complaints. But then she does come and sit through my gradings and performances, so it's a fair cop. I'm very aware that this would be the perception of most of the great unwashed. Do i care? Not particulaly.
Have to say i'm a big fan of kungfu movies too... especially the ones that  subvert the genre - i guess i'm thinking Shaolin Soccer in particular!


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## pete (Jun 7, 2007)

Ba Gua slow?  huh? 

as i said earlier, get your detractors on the mat, if its bagua... tie 'em up in knots!


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## jks9199 (Jun 7, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Movie images, Hollywood agrandizement, even modern Wushu, etc. have all played a part in the general publics idea of what Chinese Martial Arts are.  It has been going on a long time and in the west it took off with Kung Fu the series starring David Carridine. (plus other things)  The reality is that the Chinese Martial Arts image has been stereotyped to fit with some of the above by your average person.  All we can do is try and educate them and when possible show them what true Chinese Martial Arts are.


The only change I'd make is to substitute "all martial arts" for "Chinese Martial Arts" 'cause there are plenty of silly ideas out there about all the martial arts fueled by 2 second sound bite news "stories", entertainment silliness, and the idiots who feed it with inane demonstrations that are better described as poor magic acts!


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## Sukerkin (Jun 7, 2007)

Exellent words from many in this one :tup:.

I like the conciseness of *Brian*'s post which I think encapsulates the problem and (probably doomed ) solution very well.

That said, I have to red-facedly admit that the groundwork of my taking up Lau Gar all those years ago was laid by "Kung Fu".  I loved the 'Shane-like', self-controlled, nobility of Kane when I watched the series as a kid ... plus the effortless way he dealt with the (usually bigotted) 'bad guys' when they left him no choice ... .

"Enter the Dragon" also, I think, brought a great many people into the arts that otherwise would've not made the effort.  Even the much reviled "Last Samurai" did the same job with the sword arts (and it's not reviled by _me_ by the way, it's one of my top ten favourite films I've ever seen).

Nontheless, Hollywood can do a lot of damage it's true - before some of you chaps here started to re-educate me, I had a terrible disdain for "N1ngerz!" solely because of the drivel the media had pumped out ... well that influence plus my aquaintence with some fellows (whose attitudes I held in low regard) who did what they said was 'Ninjitsu', thus completing the tar-and-feathering of the art in my eyes .


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 7, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Movie images, Hollywood agrandizement, even modern Wushu, etc. have all played a part in the general publics idea of what Chinese Martial Arts are. It has been going on a long time and in the west it took off with Kung Fu the series starring David Carridine. (plus other things) The reality is that the Chinese Martial Arts image has been stereotyped to fit with some of the above by your average person. All we can do is try and educate them and when possible show them what true Chinese Martial Arts are.


 
Nicely put!


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 7, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Exellent words from many in this one :tup:.
> 
> I like the conciseness of *Brian*'s post which I think encapsulates the problem and (probably doomed ) solution very well.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think you need to be even slightly ashamed of what inspired you to take up MAs.  I pretty much have the same inspirations as you.  The difference, I think, with you and me is that we did not go into the training hall expecting to be taught to walk on water or punch holes in walls.  I think some do these days.  Reality and fiction are quite indistinct in some peoples' minds.


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## Darksoul (Jun 7, 2007)

-I agree with what others have said. Educate. Lead by example. Show people how your style, whatever it is, has helped improve the quality of your life. Explain to them, should they ask, especially when a movie is involved. It is unfortunate that so many believe whats on the silver screen to be reality or something very close to it, when we all know better, especially when it comes to martial arts. Just have to educate.

A--->


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jun 7, 2007)

Yeti said:


> I disagree with your first point. Most non-MAs actually DO think the Kung Fu is one art, just like they think Karate is one art. Most folks don't really know there are many arts encompassed by the generic terms Karate and Kung Fu. ...


 
You said it before I could.  Thought stealer!


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## brianlkennedy (Jun 7, 2007)

Let me put this all in historical perspective, and this maybe some comfort, albeit cold comfort. For as far back as we have documentation for, the Chinese publics view of Chinese martial arts has been about 90% hype, nonsense, bulletproof monks, flying swords, qi balls and all the rest. 

  The distortions of Chinese martial arts are not new, they are not caused by Shaw Brothers movies, idiotic articles in Inside Kung Fu, or the ChiComs with their competition wushu. 

  Chinese martial arts has, all the way back to the Ming Dynasty, had a huge fantasy element to it and truth be told, Chinese martial arts instructors, who were business men running schools or bodyguard services, played up the fantasy hype and profited from it. 

  The idea that there was some Golden Past Age in China where martial arts was no b.s., is inaccurate. Chinese martial arts has always had a very large b.s. component. And of course that impacts on the publics view.

  So the problem is old. I very much agree with what a number of people have said about not worrying about it too much and just trying to lead your life in a way that puts a good spin on Chinese martial arts. And too, like a couple of guys said, education is a big part of it.

  The key point is to stay calm, act dignified like I am in this picture.







  just kidding, that is actually Zhong Kuei, the mythic demon catcher. He actually is kind of a good example of the mixed image that Chinese martial arts has in traditional Chinese mentality. On the one hand he was a very good, very brave and honest man. On the other hand his folk stories are full of magic swords, magic charms, flying through the air and all the rest of the nonsense.

  Take care,
  Brian


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## jks9199 (Jun 7, 2007)

I think the military arts in any culture get glorified and exagerated in different ways.  You can see it in the romance of the Age of Chivalry in the West; the truth is that most knights weren't "noble gentlemen of virtue" any more than the samurai were some sort of quasi-monk serene warrior-sage.  Or in the tales of the American West; the life of a cowboy on the range was nowhere near as fun or neat as even Gunsmoke and other radio serials portray it.

We seem to want to glorify the people who spend their lives preparing to fight, and to endow them with some sort of special knowledge or power.  It must answer some very deep need in our collective psyche, because the cult of the elite warrior is so pervasive across cultures and continents.


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## Tames D (Jun 7, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> First of all, "kungfu" is not one art and even non-MAists know that much. Second of all, what is the point of stating the obvious? Most MA practitioners are LARPing. If you just complain here you are no different than them so get back to the training hall and prove everybody wrong.


Did I give you the impression that I thought Kung-Fu is only one art? I study one style of Kung-Fu (Gong-Fu). I used Kung-Fu as a general term.


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## Tames D (Jun 7, 2007)

Thanks for the responses people. I apologize if my rant gave the impression that I sit around all day worrying about this stuff, lol. 
As usual, my communicative skills are lacking 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




.


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## exile (Jun 7, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I think the military arts in any culture get glorified and exagerated in different ways.  You can see it in the romance of the Age of Chivalry in the West; the truth is that most knights weren't "noble gentlemen of virtue" any more than the samurai were some sort of quasi-monk serene warrior-sage.  Or in the tales of the American West; the life of a cowboy on the range was nowhere near as fun or neat as even Gunsmoke and other radio serials portray it.
> 
> We seem to want to glorify the people who spend their lives preparing to fight, and to endow them with some sort of special knowledge or power.  It must answer some very deep need in our collective psyche, because the cult of the elite warrior is so pervasive across cultures and continents.



You can see this same thing not only in popular culture, but right here on MT, where it is not usual to run across a post or a thread insisting that the martials arts either confer, or entail, some special ethical wisdom and enlightenment on the part of the practitioner, that the only `true' martial artist are those whose lives are guided by a special moral virtue, or humility, or spirituality, or similar... ideas. And as you say, this picture of the traditional Asian warrior and exponent of martial skills has as much basis in fact as the sanctity of the Grail knights in _Mort d'Artur_. 

Bear in mind, though, that this kind of image served purposes apart from expressing that collective yearning you allude to, jks. It had a very practical benefit for the practitioners: emphasis on the character-building role of karate, for example, was essentially an opportunistic add-on to Itosu's original message to the Japanese Education Minnistry in his 1908 letter which got karate into the Okinawan public school curriculum: Itosu promised them strong young men who would be`each capable of defeating ten assailants... I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation _and our military._' Itosu, the father of modern karate, never, in his letter, says one word about morality or ethics: he talks about producing good soldiers. And his student Funakoshi turned this approach to the Japanese authorities into an art form. Look at what Rob Redmond has to say about Funakoshi at his website (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2006/01/29/funakoshi-man-vs-myth/):

_Before World War II, what the Japanese refer to as the War of the Pacific, Funakoshi&#8217;s books had a particular jingoistic ring to them. He supposed that karate training was good for young soldiers to learn to take into battle, and that karate was also good training for conquered people so that they could be disciplined into civilized Japanese citizens..._.

Redmond backs up this interpretation with citations from Funakoshi's own work, including the observation, rather damning for those who want to cite him as a proponent of `ethical' MAs, that *`War is a method which God gave humans to organize the world'*, and other explicit endorsements of the brutal militarism which Japan was shortly to inflict on the rest of the world. But the fun doesn't stop there by any means, for Redmond notes that

_This message is a far cry from his later works in which he protests that there is no initiative in karate (karate ni sente nashi from the Niju Kun) and that karate is the study of peace. It is not too strange that Funakoshi, who might be described as a master politician and even a social chameleon, would so adeptly alter his message to suit American Occupational Authorities after having constructed one that was music to the ears of the Imperial Japanese 20 years earlier...He favored perfection of character as a purpose later in life. He favored disciplining people into good conquered minions of Japan earlier in life._

The message was apparently one that the American administration in Japan wanted to hear, for karate, which had originally been slated to be forcibly suppressed during the demilitarization campaign, was according to Redmond allowed to continue as a result of Funakoshi''s and his students' success in persuading the occupying forces' high brass that karate was pretty much the same thing as Mr. Miyagi was telling us. 

Similar things have happened in KMAs as well; Gen. Choi in particular has an interesting track record in utterly unscrupulous hardball TKD politics, which tends to undermine his later pieties about the spiritually and ethically uplifting objectives of TKD.  

So you can't leave out cynical self-interest and self-serving posturing when it comes to this picture of MAs as vehicles for spiritual sanctity and the rest of the bogus line that popular culture depictions of them regularly feed us. As I say, I don't need to remind anyone that if we see the same kind of cant solemnly pronounced by MAists right here on MT... you can bet that people who don't actually have any firsthand knowledge of the arts are going to be happy buying the particular MA version of the Brooklyn Bridge that both Hollywood and cynical MA entrepreneurs are selling us at a special discount price...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 7, 2007)

ya know, sometimes I find myself getting all worked up when people make foolish judgements based on ignorance about an art.  I think, "we gotta show 'em!"  or "we gotta educate 'em", and "we can't let the world think this about our art!"

But then, sometimes, i sort of think, "let 'em be ignorant, let 'em think it's no good."  Sometimes secrets are best kept close, and only shared with those who matter.

'Cause if the poo hits the fan, it puts me in a better position if they think I've spent all my time practicing something worthless...better yet: don't even let them know I train at all.

Don't show your cards until the dealing and the betting are done.  Then you show them what five aces looks like...


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> You can see this same thing not only in popular culture, but right here on MT, where it is not usual to run across a post or a thread insisting that the martials arts either confer, or entail, some special ethical wisdom and enlightenment on the part of the practitioner, that the only `true' martial artist are those whose lives are guided by a special moral virtue, or humility, or spirituality, or similar... ideas. And as you say, this picture of the traditional Asian warrior and exponent of martial skills has as much basis in fact as the sanctity of the Grail knights in _Mort d'Artur_.
> 
> Bear in mind, though, that this kind of image served purposes apart from expressing that collective yearning you allude to, jks. It had a very practical benefit for the practitioners: emphasis on the character-building role of karate, for example, was essentially an opportunistic add-on to Itosu's original message to the Japanese Education Minnistry in his 1908 letter which got karate into the Okinawan public school curriculum: Itosu promised them strong young men who would be`each capable of defeating ten assailants... I believe this will be a great benefit to our nation _and our military._' Itosu, the father of modern karate, never, in his letter, says one word about morality or ethics: he talks about producing good soldiers. And his student Funakoshi turned this approach to the Japanese authorities into an art form.
> 
> ...


 
I wasn't trying to suggest that the only reason for the "creative enlargement" of the martial arts was some sort of collective yearning or need.  I'm sure that throughout history there have been people putting false rank certificates or bragging about their prowess in battles that never happened.  I don't think that human nature has changed all that much in the last several thousand years...  

But I also think that there must be some deeper need than mere individual self promotion fueling the societal glorification of the warrior.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> ya know, sometimes I find myself getting all worked up when people make foolish judgements based on ignorance about an art. I think, "we gotta show 'em!" or "we gotta educate 'em", and "we can't let the world think this about our art!"
> 
> But then, sometimes, i sort of think, "let 'em be ignorant, let 'em think it's no good." Sometimes secrets are best kept close, and only shared with those who matter.
> 
> ...


 
Oh, that Flying Crane he's a cunning guy!  

You could go the whole hog and train in eye-hurtingly colourful silk outfits and wave your hands meaninglessly, and maybe throw in some Chinese operatic singing.  That way anyone who watches the class would get the wrong impression.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 8, 2007)

brianlkennedy said:


> Let me put this all in historical perspective, and this maybe some comfort, albeit cold comfort. For as far back as we have documentation for, the Chinese publics view of Chinese martial arts has been about 90% hype, nonsense, bulletproof monks, flying swords, qi balls and all the rest.
> 
> The distortions of Chinese martial arts are not new, they are not caused by Shaw Brothers movies, idiotic articles in Inside Kung Fu, or the ChiComs with their competition wushu.
> 
> ...


 
Great post. From what I have experienced myself in my three years here in China is that 99% of it is pure ******** and that even most of the instructors believe their own ********. They are also egotistical.

For example I say to an instructor: Can you believe that other instructor? He said that you could use Qi to levitate if you practise every day for ten years.
Instructor: Yes, that is complete ********. He is completely wrong and my style is better. You can only use Qi to jump onto buildings and over high walls.
Me: ......

But would you say that Chinese military arts were less ******** than those of their civilian counterparts? If you think about it: Who would have better gongfu; monks meditation all day or soldiers that waged war all the time?


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## Hand Sword (Jun 8, 2007)

QUI-GON said:


> Personally I hate the image that some people have of my Art. I think the media has done a pretty good job of assisting that image.
> 
> The Kung-Fu I know and love is a practical, down to earth, *** kicking fighting system. Not an acrobatic, fly through the air, while defending yourself against 25 armed attackers joke of a circus stunt.
> 
> ...


 

I did a thread similar to this awhile back. I think it goes across all of the, I guess what are now called the TMA's. From goofy movies, all the way down to the moron that does the Karate Kid crane stance with the "Waaah!" sound. Through the years something has happened. The arts have gone from the cool, exotic thing to do, to "soccer mom status", where it's for families and kids. Dojos, kwoons etc.. seem to be more child care centers.


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## Rabu (Jun 8, 2007)

Great thread.

Reminds me of a great movie: Strictly Ballroom

If you havent seen this movie, you should. Not only is it hilarious, but also completely in sync with the martial arts community at large. Really.

"Real martial arts" involve engaging at a higher level of commitment, faster, than your opponent and never allowing them to recover.

The fighter who engages at the highest level, FIRST and dominates the opponent will win. There are all kinds of caveats you can add, but this maxim is generally true.

In regards to the advertising aspect of the martial arts and kung fu in specific I have some lament, but only for the people who are unable to seperate reality from fantasy.

Using the term 'LARPing' (Live Action Role Playing) to describe modern practitioners may be accurate, but if they arent thinking that they are learning 'killing military techniques' then there is no harm. As long as the advertisement, the explanation of what is being taught is consistent and honest, then I would say no harm done.

Practice of Chinese Martial Arts as a proper venue for cultural practice seems most appropriate to me. Understanding the venue in which your skills apply is also a key in my opinion.

There are artists out there who claim to be able to use fist techniques to strike at opponents through up to 16 inches of steel! That seems somewhat retarded to me. If you had that kind of skill, the military would have you in some kind of holding cell...with 17 inches of plating between you and the real world.

Its insane claims like that which remove the 'validity' from the practice and create an atmosphere which allows for even bigger tall tales to be used in competition for customers.

Real training is interesting to few people. Learning to FLY?!?!? Dude, I am there!

Best regards,

Rob


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> I did a thread similar to this awhile back. I think it goes across all of the, I guess what are now called the TMA's. From goofy movies, all the way down to the moron that does the Karate Kid crane stance with the "Waaah!" sound. Through the years something has happened. The arts have gone from the cool, exotic thing to do, to "soccer mom status", where it's for families and kids. Dojos, kwoons etc.. seem to be more child care centers.



A lot of what's happened over the years is that the explosive growth of the MAs seems to have led to more and more schools fighting over the same number of potential customers, so to survive, more and more of them have had to shift to after-school kids' programs, which is now where a substantial amount of income for many dojos comes from. 

Take TKD:  nominally huge practitioner base, but how many of those people are seriously training for Olympic-rules tournament competition? And how any of them want _really_ hard CQ self-defense training. So what's a dojang-owner to do? Well, if you offer enough `little tiger' programs and in effect promise parents that studying MAs will keep their kids off drugs down the line, you can actually do quite well in terms of volume. And that's what's happened to many dojangs, and other MAs besides TKD are in the same boat.

But any activity which is known as diversion/maintenance for kids is not going get much in the way of, um, _street cred_....


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Oh, that Flying Crane he's a cunning guy!
> 
> You could go the whole hog and train in eye-hurtingly colourful silk outfits and wave your hands meaninglessly, and maybe throw in some Chinese operatic singing. That way anyone who watches the class would get the wrong impression.


 

well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings!  I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!


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## Jade Tigress (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings!  I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!



:lfao: 

Sweet.


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> well, you see, when I "wave my hands meaninglessly", I am actually doing White Crane style and I'm flapping my wings!  I'll just start putting feathers all over my costume, and let everyone think I'm nuts!



And as any subway rider in NY will tell you, even the massive guys with skulls tatooed on their scarred arms and do-rags on their heads will give a wide berth to obvious flat-out nutters riding the late night trains... so good strategy, Michael!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> And as any subway rider in NY will tell you, even the massive guys with skulls tatooed on their scarred arms and do-rags on their heads will give a wide berth to obvious flat-out nutters riding the late night trains... so good strategy, Michael!


 
oh, well, I ONLY dress and train this way when I am in the public transportation system.  In fact, this is how I get to work everyday.  I consider it to be a primary strategy in self-preservation.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> A lot of what's happened over the years is that the explosive growth of the MAs seems to have led to more and more schools fighting over the same number of potential customers, so to survive, more and more of them have had to shift to after-school kids' programs, which is now where a substantial amount of income for many dojos comes from.
> 
> Take TKD: nominally huge practitioner base, but how many of those people are seriously training for Olympic-rules tournament competition? And how any of them want _really_ hard CQ self-defense training. So what's a dojang-owner to do? Well, if you offer enough `little tiger' programs and in effect promise parents that studying MAs will keep their kids off drugs down the line, you can actually do quite well in terms of volume. And that's what's happened to many dojangs, and other MAs besides TKD are in the same boat.
> 
> But any activity which is known as diversion/maintenance for kids is not going get much in the way of, um, _street cred_....


 

All of it is exactly right and still proves my point. Money ruined everything. The arts, from their origins were never about money. Since that began, for all styles, what has happened and the "reasons why" are what they are. As for "street cred", You're  right again, though you're attempting the modern view, almost talking down to that. Remember, the seriousness of real fighting/self defense (the street if you will) was the breeding ground of the old masters and the evolution point from basic meditation practices to what exists and gets commercialised now. Don't hate or try to ignore that phase of the art's development. Besides, in all honestly, your skills better have "street cred" or some competent amount of it, if you seriously expect to be able to defend yourself for real when it goes down.


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> oh, well, I ONLY dress and train this way when I am in the public transportation system.  In fact, this is how I get to work everyday.  I consider it to be a primary strategy in self-preservation.



Can't argue with success, eh? Here you are, still with us and still posting... clearly, your system _works_. Much better, in my opinion, than a strategy of trying to become invisible... probably a lot of guys who attempted to go that route are no long in a position to admit the error of their ways, I fear... 




Hand Sword said:


> All of it is exactly right and still proves my point. Money ruined everything. The arts, from their origins were never about money. Since that began, for all styles, what has happened and the "reasons why" are what they are. As for "street cred", You're  right again, though you're attempting the modern view, almost talking down to that. Remember, the seriousness of real fighting/self defense (the street if you will) was the breeding ground of the old masters and the evolution point from basic meditation practices to what exists and gets commercialised now. Don't hate or try to ignore that phase of the art's development. Besides, in all honestly, your skills better have "street cred" or some competent amount of it, if you seriously expect to be able to defend yourself for real when it goes down.



No, HS, I meant `street cred'&#8212;respect from the general population, including those who are _on_ the street and possibly represent danger to you there&#8212;quite literally. The point is that neither amongst the general population nor the much smaller number of potential attackers within that population will you find too many people ready to back off in the face of a MA's credentials these days, as opposed to say earlier phases of the MAs in North America, when training was an almost exclusively adult activity carried out by people who were... basically, _zealots_ about their arts in those days and went at it in the most brutal possible way with members of other dojos over issues of respect (sometimes under the auspices of tournaments and sometimes not. And no, it's _not_ the most sterling example of MA behavior, but before we start getting lectured by those who keep insisting that MAists should be sanctified knights in shining armor, let them remember that the same `doj(o/ang) war' behavior was rampant amongs the first-generation KMA pioneers of the `Original Kwans' and also between Shuri and Naha styles of karate during Itosu's era, and carried out by some of the most reknowned MAists in history). It's just that people will not take you seriously as a fighter if they associate what you do with a kind of gymnastically active babysitting. The deterrence that is your best friend is much harder to maintain given the current trend in MA school membership....


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## Hand Sword (Jun 8, 2007)

Then I think we are saying the same thing (?) If so, sorry about my response post. The street thing is very sensitive to me, though here in the forums it's a punch line term usually. (That shows where I'm from right?-lol!)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Are we still cool?

O.k. Back to the topic of the thread!


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Then I think we are saying the same thing (?)



We are indeed, XS!



Hand Sword said:


> If so, sorry about my response post. The street thing is very sensitive to me, though here in the forums it's a punch line term usually. (That shows where I'm from right?-lol!)



Not even a hint of a problemI think I know what was going through your mind...



Hand Sword said:


> Are we still cool?



Cool? We are _chillin'_, brother!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Can't argue with success, eh? Here you are, still with us and still posting... clearly, your system _works_. Much better, in my opinion, than a strategy of trying to become invisible... probably a lot of guys who attempted to go that route are no long in a position to admit the error of their ways, I fear...


 
I wonder just how one becomes invisible.  Perhaps they simply WILL it to be?

It reminds me of an old Monty Python skit.  One of the guys was going to set a world record by leaping the entire English Channel in one jump.  When he confessed that his longest jump so far was something like 6 feet, 4 inches, he was asked just how he expected to clear the entire English Channel.  His response was something to the effect of: "Well, when you are miles out from land, over the English Channel, there is a very very strong incentive to stay in the air".

I believe he was to make the jump with about 100 pounds of construction bricks on his back, as it was a brick manufacturer that was providing financial sponsorship for the stunt.

Ah, but I digress from the topic at hand.  Back to kung fu's (and other TMA's) reputation...


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I wonder just how one becomes invisible.  Perhaps they simply WILL it to be?



We could always ask them... wait, we can't do that... if they're invisible we can't see them so we don't know who they are, so we don't know who to ask. Scratch that... back to the drawing board... 



Flying Crane said:


> It reminds me of an old Monty Python skit.  One of the guys was going to set a world record by leaping the entire English Channel in one jump.  When he confessed that his longest jump so far was something like 6 feet, 4 inches, he was asked just how he expected to clear the entire English Channel.  His response was something to the effect of: "Well, when you are miles out from land, over the English Channel, there is a very very strong incentive to stay in the air".
> 
> I believe he was to make the jump with about 100 pounds of construction bricks on his back, as it was a brick manufacturer that was providing financial sponsorship for the stunt.



:rofl:



Flying Crane said:


> Ah, but I digress from the topic at hand.  Back to kung fu's (and other TMA's) reputation...



I think the CMAs have a particular problem with this, for reasons already discussed very perceptively above: these arts come with a lot of baggage from their own history, with fact and fantasy blended. There is a larger issue here, in fact, which would be interesting to explore, perhaps, in its own thread: the differences in the role of the CMAs, OMAs, JMAs, FMA's... whatever-MAs (I'd use XMA on the standard notation of X as a variable over the set of possibilities, except that the result in this case has already taken for use in labelling an activity that really isn't mentionable in civilized company... :wink1: ) with respect to the larger culture which they're part of. My feeling isand again, I'm quite happy to be shown to be way wrong, if I amthat the CMAs play quite a different kind of role in Chinese culture than the karate-based arts and the FMAs do in their respective cultures. But that's a big, big topic...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> I think the CMAs have a particular problem with this, for reasons already discussed very perceptively above: these arts come with a lot of baggage from their own history, with fact and fantasy blended...
> 
> My feeling is&#8212;and again, I'm quite happy to be shown to be way wrong, if I am&#8212;that the CMAs play quite a different kind of role in Chinese culture than the karate-based arts and the FMAs do in their respective cultures. But that's a big, big topic...


 

This is bringing back memories of a thread I started a while back over on the sister site, KenpoTalk.

I had posted a link to my capoeira school's website, where some videoclips were listed, from demonstrations the school had done.  Some nice capoeira games were profiled there, and it gives an interesting, but brief, taste of the art.  

My subject for the thread was, Capoeira vs. Kenpo.  I did not wish to suggest or promote one art as better than the other.  Instead, I was interested in stimulating some discussion on the two arts, to look at the strengths and weaknesses of each, and the vastly different approach to combat and training that each art takes.  Not many of the kenpo guys over there were experienced with capoeira, so I was sort of the lone defender of the art, while the kenpo guys looked at its perceived weaknesses.  There was also a general acknowledgement of capoeiras strengths as well, in it's unusual approach and tricky and surprising techniques.

At any rate, I remember one poster indicated that he felt capoeira was just a fancy dance, with little fighting potential.

My gut reaction was to contradict him and educate him and explain how wrong he was.  But then I realized, probably the old capoeira masters of 100 or 150 years ago would be absolutely DELIGHTED to know that an outsider had this perception of the art.

Perhaps Capoeira and the Chinese arts share a similar role as a greater cultural vessel than simply a fighting art.  I dunno, just thinking...

I think it is a modern perception that we need our art to be respected by outsiders.  This is a reflection of the modern reality that few of us ever need to actually defend our lives with our skills.  If we did need to on any kind of regular occasion, if we were living 150 years ago when our own safety was much more in our own hands, when we didn't have organized law enforcement to protect society, I bet none of us would be talking as freely about our art as we are today.  That would be a secret held very tight and close, and the more false information we could leak out about how "lousy" our art was, the better.

So the more I think about this, the more my response to some blowhard who says "oh, you do that kung fu crap? well I do XYZ and it's WAY BETTER than your kung fu!", or "I bet I could kick your ***, 'cause I do XYZ!", I am more likely to say "Ah, I am sure your are correct, that is some very powerful stuff you do!" and leave it at that.

edit:  I remember reading about a famous capoeirista from the 1800s, or something, some guy who was almost a folk hero.  I think when he was threatened or backed into a corner, he would literally collapse into a blubbering heap, pouring out rivers of crocodile tears.  He would convince his adversary of how weak and vulnerable he was, and they would drop their guard.  Then he would whip out the straight razor and end it right there.  Trickery, trickery, trickery...when your life is on the line, everything goes, and deception is the rule of the day...


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it is a modern perception that we need our art to be respected by outsiders.  This is a reflection of the modern reality that few of us ever need to actually defend our lives with our skills.  If we did need to on any kind of regular occasion, if we were living 150 years ago when our own safety was much more in our own hands, when we didn't have organized law enforcement to protect society, I bet none of us would be talking as freely about our art as we are today.  That would be a secret held very tight and close, and the more false information we could leak out about how "lousy" our art was, the better.
> 
> So the more I think about this, the more my response to some blowhard who says "oh, you do that kung fu crap? well I do XYZ and it's WAY BETTER than your kung fu!", or "I bet I could kick your ***, 'cause I do XYZ!", I am more likely to say "Ah, I am sure your are correct, that is some very powerful stuff you do!" and leave it at that.
> 
> edit:  I remember reading about a famous capoeirista from the 1800s, or something, some guy who was almost a folk hero.  I think when he was threatened or backed into a corner, he would literally collapse into a blubbering heap, pouring out rivers of crocodile tears.  He would convince his adversary of how weak and vulnerable he was, and they would drop their guard.  Then he would whip out the straight razor and end it right there.  Trickery, trickery, trickery...when your life is on the line, everything goes, and deception is the rule of the day...



Beautifully put and a great insight. It's like two countries which are at war: each would just as soon the other think the worst of its most advanced armament and assume that those weapons were pushovers. They don't send each other dispatches during lulls in the fighting bragging that their SAMs can track not only heat but radiation over a huge portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, and also have anti-stealth recognition capability. Disinformation, not information, is the order of the day...


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Disinformation, not information, is the order of the day...


 
The more I think about it, the more I really really believe this is the mantra to live by.  We get so wrapped up in our egos, wanting "respect" for what we do, when we should actually WANT others to think it's no good.  That's the safest thing.

Now mind you, you don't want to appear so weak that you INVITE trouble by someone looking for an easy target.  But if trouble has come to you and doesn't want to look elsewhere, then LET THEM THINK YOU ARE WEAK!!

Like I posted earlier, you keep your pokerface.  Encourage them to believe you have a lousy hand.  Only AFTER the dealing and the betting are done, when it's too late to back out, you tip your cards and YOU SHOW THEM WHAT FIVE ACES LOOKS LIKE!!!

I like that.  I think I'm gonna call my strategy Five Aces Kung Fu, or something...


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Only AFTER the dealing and the betting are done, when it's too late to back out, you tip your cards and YOU SHOW THEM WHAT FIVE ACES LOOKS LIKE!!!
> 
> I like that.  I think I'm gonna call my strategy Five Aces Kung Fu, or something...



Now if only we can persuade people that an Ace is not just a rank in a pack of cards but also an animal of some sort, that name will sound absolutely canonical so far as Kung Fu styles go, eh?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 8, 2007)

exile said:


> Now if only we can persuade people that an Ace is not just a rank in a pack of cards but also an animal of some sort, that name will sound absolutely canonical so far as Kung Fu styles go, eh?


 

heh heh, i was actually noticing that same coincidence...


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## exile (Jun 8, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> heh heh, i was actually noticing that same coincidence...



I was going to invoke the `great minds' effect here... but clearly, if that's the right story, than said invocation should be unnecessary, for the obvious reason, eh?


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## Jeff L (Jun 29, 2007)

I'm not sure I'd call the image any been dragged through the mud any worse than what has been done to any form of MA in the public's eye and movies.


Then again, a friend of mine is quite fond of playing "Kung Fu Fighting" every time I go to his apartment.


As someone already pointed out, I think the average person has no idea that there is more than one form of Kung Fu, Karate, etc.


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 4, 2007)

Jeff L said:


> I'm not sure I'd call the image any been dragged through the mud any worse than what has been done to any form of MA in the public's eye and movies.
> 
> 
> Then again, a friend of mine is quite fond of playing "Kung Fu Fighting" every time I go to his apartment.
> ...


 
The average person is a bloody idiot.


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## Nyrotic (Jul 14, 2007)

I work at SeaWorld, and on my nametag is says "Martial Artist". When asked what art I study, and when I reply "Kung Fu", people immediatlye go 'whoo' and put their hands up in crude looking wu saus.

...one guy actually joked about me being able to kick people in the head and jokingly asked if I could.....I demonstrated and stopped my foot an inch from his face...he stopped laughing.


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## Jeff L (Jul 20, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> The average person is a bloody idiot.


 

Well, you're not wrong there.


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## count (Jul 21, 2007)

50 percent of all people are below average.

It's a fact.


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