# Judo Self Defense



## macher (May 17, 2018)

Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!


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## Dirty Dog (May 17, 2018)

macher said:


> Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!



Well, no, because Judo (if memory serves) was developed from jujitsu with the specific goal of developing a martial sport.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 17, 2018)

During the 

- ancient time, people tried to make a combat art into a sport. 
- modern time, people tried to make a sport back into combat art. 

Combat at is the goal. Sport is the temporary training path.


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## Hanshi (May 17, 2018)

Korean YUDO is often as combat art rather than sport.  Judo has kicks, strikes and "illegal" techniques in its original form.  Regardless, judo is excellent training to suppliment s-d.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 17, 2018)

IIRC, Judo originally contained a self-defense curriculum (goshin waza) within the larger curriculum. As long as the full range of Judo is being trained (rather than the more limited range typically seen in competition these days), Judo translates to self-defense pretty easily. The lack of a solid striking (and counter-striking) foundation is the real weakness.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 17, 2018)

Hanshi said:


> Korean YUDO is often as combat art rather than sport.


If you are talking about this, I believe it's sport too.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 17, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The lack of a solid striking (and counter-striking) foundation is the real weakness.


This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.

In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.






This is the hip throw used in the striking environment.


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## Danny T (May 17, 2018)

*Judo Atemi-waza: body-striking techniques*
Although taught within the full Judo curriculum these striking techniques are forbidden in *standard judo competitions rules* therefore most are not taught in standard Judo schools

*Ude-ate-waza: arm striking techniques*

*Kobushi-ate-waza: fist techniques*

*Tsukkake* or *Tsuki-kake*: Straight punch
*Mae-naname-ate*: Front crossing blow
*Naname-tsuki* or *Mawashi-tsuki*: Roundhouse punch or circular punch
*Tsuki-age* or *Ago-tsuki*: Uppercut
*Uchi-oroshi* or *Uchi-kake*: Downward strike or hammer fist
*Yoko-ate*: Side strike or backfist
*Yoko-uchi*: Strike to side
*Gammen-tsuki*: Thrust punch or jab
*Kami-ate* or *Ue-ate*: Upward blow
*Shimo-tsuki*: Downward blow
*Ushiro-sumi-tsuki*: Rear corner blow
*Ushiro-uchi*: Rear blow
*Ushiro-tsuki*: Rear strike (over shoulders)
*Ryote-tsuki*: Two hand blow  
*
Hiji-ate-waza: elbow techniques*

*Mae-hiji-ate*: Elbow blow
*Ushiro-hiji-ate*: Rear elbow strike
*Age-hiji-ate*: Rising elbow strike
*Shita-hiji-ate* or *Oroshi-hiji-ate* : Downward elbow strike
*
Tegatana-ate-waza: knife hand techniques*

*Kirioroshi*: Downward knife hand cut
*Naname-uchi*: Slanting knife hand blow
*
Yubisaki-ate-waza: fingertip techniques*

*Tsuki-dashi*: Hand Thrust
*Ryogan-tsuki*: Strike both eyes with fingertips
*Suri-age*: Face slide or forehead thrust
*Yahazu*: Strikes with the V-shape of the hand
*Me-tsubushi*: Whipping the back of fingers to strike opponent's eyes
*
Ashi-ate-waza: leg striking techniques*

*Sekito-ate-waza: ball of foot techniques*

*Mae-geri*: Front kick
*Mae-naname-geri*: Front crossing kick or oblique kick
*Naname-geri* or *Mawashi-geri*: Roundhouse Kick
*Taka-geri*: High front kick
*
Kakato-ate-waza: heel techniques*

*Yoko-geri*: Side kick
*Ushiro-geri*: Backward kick
*Ashi-fumi*: Foot stomp
*
Hiza-gashira-ate-waza: knee  techniques*

*Mae-hiza-ate*: Front knee
*Yoko-hiza-ate*: Side knee
*Hiza-otoshi*: Dropping knee
*
Atama-ate-waza: head striking techniques (head butts)*

*Mae-atama-ate*: Strike with the forehead
*Ushiro-atama-ate*: Strike with the occiput
*Atama-tsuki*: Head thrust
*
Kyusho: vital spots (points to strike on the body)*

*Tendo*: Top of the head, bregma
*Uto* or *Miken*: Between the eyes, nation
*Kasumi*: Temple of the head
*Jinchu*: Below the nose, philtrum
*Zen-keibu*: Front side of neck with the Adam's apple
*Gwanto* or *Kachikake* or *Shita-ago*: Point of the chin
*Dokko*: Mastoid process
*Suigetsu* or *Mizu-ochi*: Solar plexus
*Denko*: Right lowest floating rib
*Getsuei*: Left lowest floating rib
*Myojo*: 1-inch below the belly button, hypogastrium
*Tsuri-gane* or *Kokan*: Testicles
*Shitsu* or *Shita-kansetsu*: Knee
*Ashi-no-ko*: The surface of foot
*
Uke-waza: blocks and parries*

*Tenkai*: Outside turning or body rotation
*Age-uke*: Rising block
*Harai-uke*: Sweeping block
*Tegatana-uke*: Knife hand block
*Shotei-uke*: Palm block
*Juji-uke*: Cross block
*Hiki-uke*: Grasping block
*Morote-uke*: Two hand block


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## Danny T (May 17, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.
> 
> In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.
> 
> ...


Yeah...that's why people don't do single leg or double leg takedowns in fights.

As to the O Goshi: 
Can be performed as an underhook or an overhook even in a striking situation. Set up is important. Oh and the overhook version has several counters as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 17, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Yeah...that's why people don't do single leg or double leg takedowns in fights.
> 
> As to the O Goshi:
> Can be performed as an underhook or an overhook even in a striking situation. Set up is important. Oh and the overhook version has several counters as well.


You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw. Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.

To assume that your hands can reach to your opponent's legs but his hands can't reach to your head may not be realistic.

Of course if you put your hands in front of your knees (as the blue guy in this picture), your opponent's single leg or double legs hands will have to pass through your hands first. Again, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.







You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. If you use one arm to control your opponent's leading arm, and use your other arm to

1. wrap his waist, his other arm will be free.
2. lock his head, his other arm will be free.
3. under hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.
4. over hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.

IMO, 2, 3, 4 > 1

Since when you move your opponent's head, his body will follow, the risk to let him has a free arm may be worthwhile. Definitely 1 is the most risky situation.


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## drop bear (May 17, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.
> 
> In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.
> 
> ...



The two most successful throws in MMA?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The two most successful throws in MMA?


Also both are the most risky throws (reason as I have described). You don't need to use both arms for single leg. One arm should be enough. This way you can still have a free arm to deal with your opponent's arms. IMO, the following single leg is less risky.

When you use your right hand to push your opponent's right shoulder,

- his right hand can't punch you.
- If you also hide your head to the left side of your right arm, his left hand also can't punch you.

Today this move may not be allowed to be used on Judo mat.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> *Judo Atemi-waza: body-striking techniques*
> Although taught within the full Judo curriculum these striking techniques are forbidden in *standard judo competitions rules* therefore most are not taught in standard Judo schools
> 
> *Ude-ate-waza: arm striking techniques*
> ...


I've long suspected that the core striking curriculum in NGA is derived not from Shotokan Karate-do (the officially named source) but at least partly from Kodokan Judo. This is based on the distinct lack of some things I'd expect in a Shotokan approach to striking (stepping to angles and such) and the fact that the strikes themselves are only passingly similar to Shotokan. It might be they are simply changed over time and influenced by others' knowledge, but I have this nagging suspicion. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to really get into strikes with someone who learned the Judo atemi-waza, so it's nothing more than a hunch.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw. Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.
> 
> To assume that your hands can reach to your opponent's legs but his hands can't reach to your head may not be realistic.
> 
> ...


I'm not very good at single-leg and double-leg, but here's my input. Take it for what it's worth.

When you shoot in for a leg, the leg isn't moving nearly as fast as your head. You only have to grab, making initial contact with some part of your arm (about 1/3 of the arm is a valid area for contact) on some part of the leg (nearly 1/2 of the leg is a valid starting point). To hit you in the head, he has to make contact with a fast-moving head (smaller target) with his fist (too far away for forearms, so smaller valid contact area). And for the punch to matter it has to be hard, the shoot for the leg can even result in a sketchy grip and still turn into an ugly takedown. Much of the advantage goes to the fighter shooting in if he is good at it. Knees come into the equation, but part of being good at shooting in is developing the skill of recognizing when the knees aren't very available (weight shift, double-weighted, etc.). Once a double-leg is started, it's pretty hard to counter.

Conversely, to get double hooks (of almost any variety), you have to step into a grappler's wheelhouse. There are a fair number of counters that work well early in the process. Once the hooks are in, you have a lot of options (so countering the hip throw might just mean you end up going down another way), but countering the entry is easier, IMO. Now, if my single/double-leg was better, maybe I'd also be better at countering them, but I find a hip throw easier to counter even once they get in.

EDIT: And to be clear, I'm a big fan of hip throws.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Also both are the most risky throws (reason as I have described). You don't need to use both arms for single leg. One arm should be enough. This way you can still have a free arm to deal with your opponent's arms. IMO, the following single leg is less risky.
> 
> When you use your right hand to push your opponent's right shoulder,
> 
> ...


That entry protects against some things, but is more exposed to others. A right hook would be a great counter, if you have a strong inside hook.


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## wab25 (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw.


You should not throw a punch. When you don't throw a punch, you have both your hands to defend. When you punch, you only have one hand to defend, you opponent can just slip to the side you are punching from, and knock you out.

You should not throw a kick. When you are not kicking, you have both feet on the ground so you can move. When you kick, you have one foot in the air, so you can not move. You opponent can just move around your kick and push you down.

The thing is, with every attack you make, you leave one or more openings. There is not an attack you can make, that does not create an opening for your opponent. To make matters worse, every technique has a counter. (most have many counters) You can even counter someones defense and use it against them. So... now what? Everything you do, creates an opportunity for your opponent to use the opening to knock you out or counter what you are doing and knock you out... even if you never attack, and are purely defending.

Its all about timing and set up. You have to use the move at the right time, in the right situation and with the right set up. Some techniques require very specific situations and set ups. Others are much more general. But all techniques, will leave you open, especially when not set up or timed properly. You should not be ruling out techniques because they can be countered... that rules all of them out. You should not rule out techniques that leave openings... that rules them all out. Instead, you should learn what is required in set up and timing to make each technique work. Applying a technique takes a lot more than just the physical ability to move your body.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.


Well, maybe you should take the opportunity to to learn why. There is a ton of empirical evidence showing single and double leg take downs work. There is a lot of empirical evidence that judo style hip throws work as well. Yes, you can find that occasionally, they can get knocked out in the attempt. But, look at the data... there are probably tens of thousands of successful single and double leg take downs in MMA, there are probably thousands of Judo style hip throws MMA... you can probably name off the top of your head the few times someone was knocked out in the attempt.

One thing I find interesting is that many of the most successful, and impactful, double leg take downs are counters to the other guy punching.

At the end of the day, all techniques have to be used in the right situation, with the right set up and timing. Its easy to sit back and watch the TV and say "he should have just knocked him out." But, these techniques have been around a long time... people in real combat situations and in sport combat situations find these effective. Maybe we should take some time to learn why the opponent decides not to simply knock him out, when he tries a double leg.


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## frank raud (May 18, 2018)

macher said:


> Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!


It's called Kodokan.


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## Danny T (May 18, 2018)

frank raud said:


> It's called Kodokan.


I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese but isn't Kodokan merely 'the place or building' that the training is conducted? And is it not Judo which is taught at the Kodokan?


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## Danny T (May 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've long suspected that the core striking curriculum in NGA is derived not from Shotokan Karate-do (the officially named source) but at least partly from Kodokan Judo. This is based on the distinct lack of some things I'd expect in a Shotokan approach to striking (stepping to angles and such) and the fact that the strikes themselves are only passingly similar to Shotokan. It might be they are simply changed over time and influenced by others' knowledge, but I have this nagging suspicion. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to really get into strikes with someone who learned the Judo atemi-waza, so it's nothing more than a hunch.


Interesting. So NGA doesn't use angles for attacking?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Interesting. So NGA doesn't use angles for attacking?


Most in NGA don't teach the angling-out seen in Shotokan (which sets up their kicks, if their opponent doesn't close the space). We tend to enter and exit off-line more similarly to Ueshiba's Aikido, though often entering close than they do. We tend to think of movement more in terms of circles and cutting across the circle rather than creating an angle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

wab25 said:


> There is not an attack you can make, that does not create an opening for your opponent.


We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.

1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
3. Use leg to deal with your opponent's leg.

The risk factor is 1 > 2 > 3.

If you use "diagonal cut", when you use one leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs, you can have both arms to deal with his both arms.

For single leg and double legs, you let your hand to do your leg job. IMO, it's better to let your hand to do your hand job and to let your leg to do your leg job.


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## frank raud (May 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese but isn't Kodokan merely 'the place or building' that the training is conducted? And is it not Judo which is taught at the Kodokan?


Kodokan judo is the only judo. The sporting aspect that most people are familiar with(Olympic style if you will) is cover by IJF rules, but it is still Kodokan judo. When people speak of KOSEN judo, it is a subset of Kodokan judo. If you cannot figure out who to use a "sport" throw or sweep in a self defense setting, that is unfortunate. The landing from a throw, for somehow who probably doesn't know how to breakfall, can be traumatic and a fight ender. Even if you know how to breakfall, landing on concrete makes for a rough landing. A rear naked choke is a rear naked choke in a self defense application or a sporting application. The complete study of judo will include Goshin jutsu, the self defense aspect of judo, from the formalized application of the kata, to the understanding of the principals that underly the techniques. A lot of clubs focus only on the competitive side of judo, but that is not the complete art.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.
> 
> 1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
> 2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
> ...


Your formula ignores some of the other factors. When you use a leg to deal with his leg, you're only standing on one leg. That's an increased risk. If you do it at the right time, it is balanced by the advantage of having both hands to control his upper body (not only his arms). It also ignores that the upper half is affected by what happens below it, so if you can upset his structure more quickly by using one or both arms on his leg, you are in a better position than if it takes you longer by keeping the arms up to defend. Everything is about compromises.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese ...


This why I try not to use any Chinese in my posts. 

I use

- Chinese wrestling (instead of Shuai Chiao).
- Single leg (instead of Kou)
- Double legs (instead of Lou)
- Under hook (instead of Chao).
- Over hook (instead of Quan).
- ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> When you use a leg to deal with his leg, you're only standing on one leg.


Agree with you there. The single leg balance is the trade off. Again, I assume we started this discussion because one of your post stated that punching is not considered in sport Judo. If we talk about which throw can give your better balance, Of course I will say 

2 legs on the ground > 1 leg on the ground


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## wab25 (May 18, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We are comparing the amount of risk taking during throw here. There are 3 different kind of throws.
> 
> 1. Use both arms to deal with your opponent's leg/legs.
> 2. Use one arm to deal with your opponent's leg.
> ...


That is your opinion. The data supports another opinion.

Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist

This article looks at 799 MMA fights with 2072 successful take downs. They break down the number of each type.

"The top was the double leg takedown. It accounted for 37.4 percent of all takedowns recorded. In fact, the double leg accounted for more takedowns than the single leg, outside trip and bodylock combined."

From their data double leg accounted for 798 take downs, followed by single leg for 353 take downs. Hip throws only were used 63 times. (I like hip throws  ) O'soto Gari, your "diagonal cut," accounted for 13.

Your first video showed O'goshi (hip throw) and you were worried about being hit with his left hand. You were watching a teaching demonstration with pauses in the motion. The very first part of that throw is to off balance the other guy forward and to his right. There should be very little weight at all on his left foot, and his posture should be broken. At this instant, he can generate very little power with that hand. An instant later, his feet are off the ground. From this point on, there is zero power to that left arm. (in order to generate power, he must use physics... he must push off the ground to generate punching power, but his feet have already left the ground)

The empirical data shows the double and single leg take downs to be the most effective type of take down... even if they are using arms to deal with legs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

wab25 said:


> The empirical data shows the double and single leg take downs to be the most effective type of take down... even if they are using arms to deal with legs.


This may have to do with that most of the MMA fighters came from the BJJ (or wrestling) background than from the Judo background. As far as I know the single leg is not even allowed to be used on the Judo mat today.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 18, 2018)

One factor to consider is that MMA fighters don’t wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 18, 2018)

wab25 said:


> That is your opinion. The data supports another opinion.
> 
> Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist
> 
> ...


I don’t see uchi mata, harai goshi, or sasae ashi on that list, although I’ve seen them all multiple times in the UFC. I wonder what category they’re lumping those under?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 18, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One factor to consider is that MMA fighters don’t wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.


This is true. It's hard to pull when you have gloves and also your opponent doesn't have wrestling jacket on. This is why I have tried to concentrate on

- single leg (one hand push on the shoulder and one hand grab the leg), and
- head lock (one arm wrap the arm and other arm lock the head).

Both don't depend on jacket. Also "face to face" throw is safer than "back touch chest" throw.


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## drop bear (May 19, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> One factor to consider is that MMA fighters don’t wear the sort of clothing that can be used for handles in throwing. When your opponent wears a jacket or belt (as in Judo, Shuai Chiao, Mongolian wrestling, Cornish wrestling, Glima, etc) then upper body throws are more available.



You can also clinch a lot easier.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can also clinch a lot easier.


Agreed. Without a shirt (or in a rash guard), clinch is either at the neck (Thai clinch style) or some modified clinch using hooks. Add a garment that's grabbable - even a t-shirt - and clinches on top of, to the outside of, in front of, and even under the shoulder are possibilities.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You can also clinch a lot easier.


This is true too. Without jacket, you can't use your stiff arms to hole your opponent back.

This is the main issue to evolve from jacket wrestling into no-jacket wrestling. Lot of old jacket training method will need to be evolved. After SC has been evolved into CSC (Combat SC), I no longer have any interest in the traditional jacket wrestling skill development.


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## wab25 (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don’t see uchi mata, harai goshi, or sasae ashi on that list, although I’ve seen them all multiple times in the UFC. I wonder what category they’re lumping those under?


This is not surprising, seeing that Mauro Ranallo calls every judo style throw that is not o'goshi, "hane goshi." 

I agree that these are not complete numbers. They list shoulder throws as 0 when I remember seeing a few of those as well. (some guy in Bellator was KOed with one... that was awesome!!!) That was the first break down I found, and was showing that wrestling style take downs, double and single leg, were pretty effective, even with all their disadvantages being discussed here.

Will jackets or gis change the numbers? Sure. That should raise the numbers for hip throws. But, I doubt it would change the numbers enough to show that double and single leg take downs were ineffective.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 21, 2018)

wab25 said:


> This is not surprising, seeing that Mauro Ranallo calls every judo style throw that is not o'goshi, "hane goshi."
> 
> I agree that these are not complete numbers. They list shoulder throws as 0 when I remember seeing a few of those as well. (some guy in Bellator was KOed with one... that was awesome!!!) That was the first break down I found, and was showing that wrestling style take downs, double and single leg, were pretty effective, even with all their disadvantages being discussed here.
> 
> Will jackets or gis change the numbers? Sure. That should raise the numbers for hip throws. But, I doubt it would change the numbers enough to show that double and single leg take downs were ineffective.


I agree with the overall message - in a format where both strikes and leg grabs are allowed, single and double legs will be dominant takedown methods. 

Another thought - the MMA cage floor isn’t a super soft landing surface, but it’s a lot more forgiving than concrete or hardwood. If fights took place on a hard surface, then high amplitude throws (both Judo throws and big double leg slams) might often be fight enders. Would that change the percentages? Double legs can be used as big slams, but most aren’t. You need to totally capture an opponent’s body weight to pull those off. (It might also increase the motivation for fighters to stay up when throwing, since you can potentially hurt yourself when you go down with your opponent while throwing on a hard surface.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> in a format where both strikes and leg grabs are allowed, single and double legs will be dominant takedown methods.


What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?

Get leading leg from outside.






Get leading leg from inside.


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## wab25 (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?


It's not as high a percentage move as the double or single leg. Can it work? Sure. But it has its weaknesses too... some of them made into "bigger" weaknesses by the rules.

You are trying to control a leg with only one hand. The leg is stronger. Further, in UFC you are wearing shorts. Pants are easier to grab than sweaty legs. (same issue as not wearing a jacket for upper body)

These videos, do not show the same commitment. He never goes fully in, nor does he change levels. He stays in striking range, just outside of clinch range getting his technique by only committing one hand. The wrestling take downs involve a level change, and full commitment to the leg. 

By using your right hand to push his right shoulder, you are open to left hooks, both to the body and the head. Your timing must be perfect. If you lose his leg (because the shorts make it harder to grab) you are open those left hooks. 

In both examples, the guy doing the technique just walks in... nothing protecting his head. In both videos, while he is reaching for the leg, his head is exposed to the other guys arm. He can either tip your head back to prevent entry or push your head down... your head is in the open and unprotected.

I am not saying the moves you show are ineffective. I believe they are effective. I am saying that they have openings and vulnerabilities, the same as any technique does. The lack of pants to grab in MMA, will effect the use of this technique in the ring... as these techniques require you to control the other guys leg with one hand... a sweaty leg will be hard to keep. I also believe that the wrestling single and double leg take downs are higher percentage moves, due to the commitment they require. You get in deeper, change your level and use two arms (and your body) to control the leg you need to control.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?
> 
> Get leading leg from outside.
> 
> ...


I think wab25 has it. I suspect the issue is that the versions you show in your video gives less control over the leg and more vulnerability to punches. They can work in MMA. In fact, I have the vague memory that I may have seen similar approaches used once or twice. I just think the success rate will be much lower.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

wab25 said:


> Pants are easier to grab than sweaty legs. ...


In Chinese wrestling, the pants grabbing is illegal. There was one Chinese wrestling tournament that one girl grabbed on another girl's pants. The pants ripped apart and exposed the other girl's naked leg to the public. Since then the pants grabbing was seriously restricted.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> more vulnerability to punches.


Those clips don't show the proper entering strategy.

- Assume you and your opponent both have right side forward.
- You move your left back foot to line up with your opponent's both feet. This way his back hand can't reach you.
- You use your left hand to push on his leading right arm to his left (your right). If you have gloves on, you can use your left forearm to push on his right upper arm to his left (your right). It's just like a "left outside in block". This way his leading right arm can be used to jam his own back left arm.
- You guide his right leading arm under your right shoulder.
- You use right hand to push on his neck, use your left hand to get his right leading leg.
- You then keep moving forward until he is down.

Since your opponent's right arm is controlled under your right shoulder. Also since the angle that you move in, his back hand cannot reach you, You don't have to worry about his right punch, or his left punch.

Here is an example. By using this entering strategy, you will have less chance to be punched compare to the "level change single leg".


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## axelb (May 21, 2018)

It has similarities to an ankle pick which I've seen used in MMA.

I think as with many takedowns, the timing and setup are important to avoid taking a strike.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think wab25 has it. I suspect the issue is that the versions you show in your video gives less control over the leg and more vulnerability to punches. They can work in MMA. In fact, I have the vague memory that I may have seen similar approaches used once or twice. I just think the success rate will be much lower.


I vaguely recall (the only way I seem to recall anything) seeing some Thai-style fighters use something similar.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In Chinese wrestling, the pants grabbing is illegal. There was one Chinese wrestling tournament that one girl grabbed on another girl's pants. The pants ripped apart and exposed the other girl's naked leg to the public. Since then the pants grabbing was seriously restricted.


It's not so much grabbing the pants, but that the pants make grabbing the leg easier. You get more friction grabbing a sweaty leg with pants than a sweaty leg without them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's not so much grabbing the pants, but that the pants make grabbing the leg easier. You get more friction grabbing a sweaty leg with pants than a sweaty leg without them.


I like to wrap my opponent's leg (under his knee joint) by my arm (above my elbow joint). It's similar to catch your opponent's roundhouse kick.

When you grab on your opponent's leg and if he drops his body weigh on your holding, if you use your

- hand to grab your opponent's leg, it's hard to hold on to it.
- elbow to hold your opponent's leg, it's much easier to hold on to it.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I agree with the overall message - in a format where both strikes and leg grabs are allowed, single and double legs will be dominant takedown methods.
> 
> Another thought - the MMA cage floor isn’t a super soft landing surface, but it’s a lot more forgiving than concrete or hardwood. If fights took place on a hard surface, then high amplitude throws (both Judo throws and big double leg slams) might often be fight enders. Would that change the percentages? Double legs can be used as big slams, but most aren’t. You need to totally capture an opponent’s body weight to pull those off. (It might also increase the motivation for fighters to stay up when throwing, since you can potentially hurt yourself when you go down with your opponent while throwing on a hard surface.)



MMA don't do slams due to efficiency. It just conserves more energy to run the pipe. You will still get a more reliable finish if you finish in the best position. rather than blowing your wad trying to pick someone up over your head.

BJJ ban slams because they are fight enders. And yet the mat is the same.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your opinion that "shoulder push single leg" is not commonly used in UFC?
> 
> Get leading leg from outside.
> 
> ...



You need a wide stance to make that work. which you dont always get.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Those clips don't show the proper entering strategy.
> 
> - Assume you and your opponent both have right side forward.
> - You move your left back foot to line up with your opponent's both feet. This way his back hand can't reach you.
> ...



head outside single(ish). You get guilotined.


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## drop bear (May 21, 2018)

by the way coachie coach does do MMA, sort of, in a gi. There are a whole lot more standing clinches.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> MMA don't do slams due to efficiency. It just conserves more energy to run the pipe. You will still get a more reliable finish if you finish in the best position. rather than blowing your wad trying to pick someone up over your head.
> 
> BJJ ban slams because they are fight enders. And yet the mat is the same.


I think if you have a competition that has throws AND heavy striking, you get a higher-conditioned (not fitness, necessarily) group of competitors. It's a theory - not sure there's any way to bear it out. And at least some (I assume not all) MMA surfaces are raised (haven't seen that in BJJ comps), which can have a significant effect on felt force in something like a slam or high throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> head outside single(ish). You get guilotined.


Your opponent's right arm has to deal with your right arm before his right arm can reach to your neck. Also if you are standing on left leg only, your reverse head lock won't have any power. Your opponent's single leg can run you down.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> pick someone up over your head.


It happens a lot in Sanda fight. At 0.23 of the following clip. Many different throws are used, but the single leg and double legs are not used in this clip.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> in a format where both strikes and leg grabs are allowed, single and double legs will be dominant takedown methods.



In this clip the guy uses

- "得合 (De He) - inner hook" (Judo Ouchi Gari) successfully 7 times.
- single leg only 1 time.


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## axelb (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It happens a lot in Sanda fight. At 0.23 of the following clip. Many different throws are used, but the single leg and double legs are not used in this clip.



You get more points in Sanda for a clean throw, plus it takes more out of the opponent without the requirement to continue on ground, it certainly makes for some big throws! I've seen suplex used fairly often also.


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## drop bear (May 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think if you have a competition that has throws AND heavy striking, you get a higher-conditioned (not fitness, necessarily) group of competitors. It's a theory - not sure there's any way to bear it out. And at least some (I assume not all) MMA surfaces are raised (haven't seen that in BJJ comps), which can have a significant effect on felt force in something like a slam or high throw.



Harder floor in MMA. They quite often use a boxing surface.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Harder floor in MMA. They quite often use a boxing surface.


Never been on a boxing surface. I assume it's not as padded as a Swain grappling mat. But boxing rings probably have more give (spring) than the floor they're stood on. That wouldn't apply to the MMA cages I've seen set up on the ground, though, unless that entire floor is suspended (unlikely). But the raised platforms...those might have some give. Dunno - you'd know better than me - I'm just postulating from what I've seen but not felt.


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