# Are weapon forms still relevant today?



## Zeny (Jan 21, 2016)

I learnt the whole taichi 108 step sword form from my teacher a couple years ago but forgot the form completely due to lack of practice. i practise 3 taichi empty hand forms and this sword form is the 4th i've learnt. There is no time to practise all 3 forms, let alone a 4th form. Other than the 3 forms we also have 4 other sets of solo exercises for relaxation, and we are not even talking about push hands yet.

The form i learnt is this. As you can see, it is very long and time consuming.






If you were me, would you re-learn the sword form? What would be the point of learning the sword form in this day and age?


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## Blindside (Jan 21, 2016)

Because swords are cool.

Do you think the only value of the form is to teach swordsmanship or is there other value to your training as a martial artist?


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## Zeny (Jan 21, 2016)

Don't doubt that, but there are other cool things where we can actually put what we learn into use. But swords?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2016)

Want to find an error in your form, want to learn how to extend your energy? Do a jian form


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Here is what I've discovered. Weapons training builds additional strength and condition, but only if you are using a (combat ready/combat steel) sword and not one of those light swords.  Real swords that can be used to actually fight with are heavier than the light swords that people use in tournaments.  Weapons also move your body in a different way than than empty hand sets. It requires a different coordination skill and it works your muscles differently.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here is what I've discovered. Weapons training builds additional strength and condition, but only if you are using a (combat ready/combat steel) sword and not one of those light swords.  Real swords that can be used to actually fight with are heavier than the light swords that people use in tournaments.  Weapons also move your body in a different way than than empty hand sets. It requires a different coordination skill and it works your muscles differently.



As a friend of mine once referred to the spring steel jians and Daos that many use....The "boing boing flap flap sword"


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## Zeny (Jan 21, 2016)

Tonight I asked my teacher to teach me the sword form again. It seems easier to re-learn the form than learning the form the first time as the movements felt familiar. I'm still trying to figure out if it is worth it, but i haven't learnt new things in a long time, and re-learning the sword form felt pretty refreshing for a change.

There is a new principle to follow in the sword form that is not present in the empty hand form. My teacher said, 'where the sword goes, the body follows' (heard this before, but haven't heard it in a long time). He demonstrated the principle, looks so smooth. Learnt 4 steps tonight, 104 more to go...

You guys practise any weapon form? How do you find it?

P/S we use wooden swords for learning, and heavy steel swords once we complete the form.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2016)

I cannot speak to your weapons forms, but my style has weapon katas as part of the system.  I did not want to learn them at first; I did not see the applicability of the bo, tuifa (tonfa), and sai to modern times.  Over time, I came to understand that they represent an extension of basic karate, and what I learn in my kobudo studies assist my karate greatly.  I don't know if this is true for your style as well, but I offer it in case it is useful to you.


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## Zeny (Jan 21, 2016)

Bill, sounds interesting, would you like to elaborate how your weapon katas assist your karate?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here is what I've discovered. Weapons training builds additional strength and condition, but only if you are using a (combat ready/combat steel) sword and not one of those light swords.  Real swords that can be used to actually fight with are heavier than the light swords that people use in tournaments.  Weapons also move your body in a different way than than empty hand sets. It requires a different coordination skill and it works your muscles differently.


Big amen


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 21, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Bill, sounds interesting, would you like to elaborate how your weapon katas assist your karate?



Sure.  Here's a simple but obvious example.  FYI, this video is of one of the acknowledged masters in our style, but he is not my master.  I refer to him as "Master" here as a term of respect.  His name is Master Euzu Angi.  In the bo kata called 'Tokumine-No-Kun' (a common weapon kata in many styles), we have several moves in which we thrust with the bo:






At 32 seconds in, you see the first of several bo thrusts.  As you do not practice our style, you may not be familiar with our stances, but for your information, the stances seen here are common to many of our empty-handed kata and exercises.  When extending power with a bo or other thrusting weapon, it is important to keep your center of gravity (or one-point, or whatever each martial art style calls it) and be solid in your stance.  

Notice that at one point, the Master seen in this video crosses one leg over another; this stance must be both rock-solid and well-balanced, lest someone grab the bo and pull.  This stance is also a basic karate stance.  Learning to do this well with a bo aids the karateka with settling into strong stances.  It also teaches about extending power; if you can extend power with a bo, you can extend it with a punch.  If you happen to be familiar with 'Naihanchi' kata, you would see a two-handed punch that very much resembles the bo strike seen early in the kata above; the difference is only that in one kata, the hands hold a bo, while in the other, the hands are formed into fists.  The strike and the method of power generation are very similar.

In more advanced weapons katas, you may note that sword or knife or other cutting weapon strikes can also be knife-hand strikes or hammer fists; basically anything you can do with a solid weapon, you can do with your hands, to a somewhat more limited extent.  The weapon just allows you to extend your power, but learning to apply power with a bo (for example) is applicable to power generation with empty hands.  Solid stances, generating power from your core, keeping your center of gravity while extending power, these are all really important to empty-handed kata as well as weapons.

There are also some very subtle moves in some styles of kobudo that you generally would not notice in a video.  For example, in the video above, at 29 seconds, you see the Master dropping the bo into a near-vertical position.  Although you can't see it in this video, there is a 'snap' in the leading wrist when the bo makes (imaginary) contact with the hand holding the opponent's bo.  This 'snap' is a backfist applied downwards, if that makes sense.  It is used throughout the kata whenever the bo is dropped as if smacking the opponent's hand holding a similar weapon.  If you can do that 'snap' with a bo, you can generate monster power doing the same move with your empty hand.  A lot of people doing an open-handed block might not think about using a backfist in that manner, so it adds to your bag of tools in that way.

*Really simple stuff applies also.  Hold a bo and lock it in to your waist.  Then have a partner grab the end and start trying to move you around by pulling, pushing, raising or lowering it while you resist.  You will quickly find out how solid your stance is, how centered you are.  If you can get to the point where your partner has to work pretty hard to move you around by the end of the bo, then your empty-handed stance is pretty good as well.  Do the same with the bo locked up high under your armpit.  See how your stance and center of gravity has to change to adapt to it.*

I'm sure there are many more examples, but these are the ones I am just starting to notice as I get further into my weapons study.

Stances, center of gravity, power generation, and extending power without compromising any of those; those are the biggies that I'm seeing.  It's really eye-opening to me.


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## Zeny (Jan 21, 2016)

Thanks Bill! Your post is gold. This is what is forum should be about, sharing of personal experiences, and not endless bickering like what is currently happening over in the wing chun forum.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sure.  Here's a simple but obvious example.  FYI, this video is of one of the acknowledged masters in our style, but he is not my master.  I refer to him as "Master" here as a term of respect.  His name is Master Euzu Angi.  In the bo kata called 'Tokumine-No-Kun' (a common weapon kata in many styles), we have several moves in which we thrust with the bo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good video and very different from the extreme bo performances that have the bow spinning around like a baton.  You are also correct about the stances involved.  If a person has a weak stance then a long weapon like a bo (like the one in the video) will tell on you.  The stance is the one thing that keeps the bo from over powering the practitioner, and as you pointed out reduces the chances of someone one taking the bow away from you.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> boing boing flap flap sword


 lol.  nice because that's what it definitely sounds like.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Zeny said:


> You guys practise any weapon form? How do you find it?


I like it.  Using "combat ready" swords gives me a new appreciation of just how much stronger the warriors were compared to today's martial artists. I thought I was strong until I picked up a real sword, after that it became clear that I'm not as strong as I would like to be or as I thought I was.  It gives me something to work towards for physical improvement and I'll get additional benefits that come from using a weapon.


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## ChenAn (Jan 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here is what I've discovered. Weapons training builds additional strength and condition, but only if you are using a (combat ready/combat steel) sword and not one of those light swords.  Real swords that can be used to actually fight with are heavier than the light swords that people use in tournaments.  Weapons also move your body in a different way than than empty hand sets. It requires a different coordination skill and it works your muscles differently.



This is not necessarily true. The training weapon are designed to be heavier for that exact reason (training). Combat weapons usually well balanced and neither too light or too heavy - just right. In addition, most actual combat weapon is tailored for particular owner. I knows that because I did some research in the regard not only eastern but also western warfare.

Few things to note here. Most cold weapon falls in two  categories: the ones that are used on the horse and the ones that are used on foot. For example saber or broadsword aka "dao" for horseman usually balance toward the tip. Same type of weapon for a foot soldier is typically balance closer to "guard". Weight can also vary depending on usage. For example, one of Ming Dynasty manual for guan dao states that it was designed for cavalry ;however, the training could be also achieved on foot as well. Which also bring another topic of training vs usage.


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## Buka (Jan 21, 2016)

Are weapon forms still relevant today? What's today, Thursday?

Yup!


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

Good points regarding the weight of a practice vs. combat grade weapon.  However, I think current reality reflects that people tend to practice with ultralight toys that have a similar appearance to a weapon.  So in contrast, yes, a combat weapon is heavier, even if historically it may have been the other way around.  I have some extremely heavy swords that are not suitable for lively combat, but are excellent for training.  I also have some excellent combat grade weapons.  I don't like to use the ultralight wushu toys.  I stopped playing with toy swords around the age of twelve or so...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

To the OP, the method you practice and the quality of the instruction you receive, as well as how well you dedicate yourself to the training and your personal aptitude to the method will all affect this issue for you.  

I learned some taiji sword, but never felt like I understood the underlying methodology of the taiji, so the sword benefits for me were diminished.

I practice several weapons in my Bak hoc, and I feel that I understand the underlying methodology of the Bak hoc, so the benefits of the weapons practice is much greater.  For example, one of our fundamental principles is that we strive to make a full body connection when delivering our techniques, and we have specific training methods to accomplish that.  Weapons practice emphasizes this.  If you lose that full body connection and simply muscle around the weapon, you will exhaust yourself.  The weapon will not let you cheat on your technique.  It's a reality check.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

ChenAn said:


> Combat weapons usually well balanced and neither too light or too heavy - just right


 From historical research, the average weight of a sword was no greater than 2 pounds or slightly less.  My swords are that much or less but not greater.  2 pounds doesn't seem like much but when the wrist is involved in holding it during motion will require significant grip, wrist, and muscle strength. This is especially true when the muscles are being used in a way that they never have been used before.  There's no movement in my Tai Chi sword form or Jow Ga Broadsword form that imitate movement from my daily life, so my muscles are being worked in a different way.  It's similar to why you see people who are strong with lifting weight with their legs have difficulty in doing a low horse stance for more than 30 seconds.  Their legs are strong for one movement but weak in another.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

To the OP:  when the zombie apocalypse arrives (some may argue it's already here, just look around at all the people walking down the sidewalk with their eyes glued to their phones while they text, oblivious to traffic...) anyway, when the zombie apocalypse arrives, remember this:  blades don't need reloading, and ammunition is heavy and runs out.  Skill with a good sword will be an asset.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> For example, one of our fundamental principles is that we strive to make a full body connection when delivering our techniques, and we have specific training methods to accomplish that. Weapons practice emphasizes this. If you lose that full body connection and simply muscle around the weapon, you will exhaust yourself. The weapon will not let you cheat on your technique. It's a reality check.


  Excellent. This is so true.  Anything that you've been cheating on, lazy with, or didn't condition for will come to light once a long weapon comes to play.  There were examples of this in the the Bo weapon video.  Another post had a video of a guy doing a form with double  axes and you could tell that the connection wasn't there.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Excellent. This is so true.  Anything that you've been cheating on, lazy with, or didn't condition for will come to light once a long weapon comes to play.  There were examples of this in the the Bo weapon video.  Another post had a video of a guy doing a form with double  axes and you could tell that the connection wasn't there.


Yeah i remember the axes, he lacked connection.  And the heavier your training weapon, the more this is true.  I have a pair of double dao, weighing in around 3 1/2 pounds each.  That is a very very difficult set to work.  I practice a lot of fundamentals with the weapons to develop the basics that come into play in the form, and to simply develop a baseline of necessary strength and conditioning needed to use the weapons.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 21, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> To the OP:  when the zombie apocalypse arrives (some may argue it's already here, just look around at all the people walking down the sidewalk with their eyes glued to their phones while they text, oblivious to traffic...) anyway, when the zombie apocalypse arrives, remember this:  blades don't need reloading, and ammunition is heavy and runs out.  Skill with a good sword will be an asset.


Zombie apocalypse = Martial weapon fun day lol.  

Ironically, if a person was ever in a situation (in the wild away from civilization) where they had limited ammo,  They would have to ration the bullets to make sure that they had enough to defend with and enough to hunt with.  Eventually it will get to the point where the person would have to make a decision to used the bullets that were saved for a defensive moment or to learn how to get food without using the gun.  My guess is that primitive weapons like swords, staff, spears bows and arows, and knifes (if they didn't have one to begin with) will start to have a significant value to help make the bullets last longer.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 21, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Zombie apocalypse = Martial weapon fun day lol.
> 
> Ironically, if a person was ever in a situation (in the wild away from civilization) where they had limited ammo,  They would have to ration the bullets to make sure that they had enough to defend with and enough to hunt with.  Eventually it will get to the point where the person would have to make a decision to used the bullets that were saved for a defensive moment or to learn how to get food without using the gun.  My guess is that primitive weapons like swords, staff, spears bows and arows, and knifes (if they didn't have one to begin with) will start to have a significant value to help make the bullets last longer.


Oh, I'm well supplied on that front.  More swords, spears, staffs, knives, tomohawks, kukhri, and archery gear than I can use by myself.  My friends all say that when the Z apocalypse happens, they are heading for my place.  When I say I need to buy ammo, I usually mean a dozen arrows.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2016)

That reminds me... I need to buy ammo.... my arrows all need to be replaced....I also need shells for the 12 gauge


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## Zeny (Jan 22, 2016)

So basically the benefits can be summed up as follows:

1) can help in empty hand training

2) can help in the event of a zombie apocalypse

That's not very encouraging guys!


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2016)

Zeny said:


> So basically the benefits can be summed up as follows:
> 
> 1) can help in empty hand training
> 
> ...



1) is helpful and should be of interest
2) is a joke, sorry you missed that
3) you missed the bit about helping with strength, if you use real weapons, especially if you train the Dao.
4) you missed the part about extending energy/force too

And just in case no one has mentioned this yet, the Jian comes from the wrist, the Dao comes from the elbow


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 22, 2016)

Zeny said:


> So basically the benefits can be summed up as follows:
> 
> 1) can help in empty hand training
> 
> ...



If all weapons training did for me was help me to ground myself better, that would be enough to make me want to keep doing it.  You have no idea how important it is to have a solid foundation.  One might say 'not much' but I would say 'nearly everything'.  From a solid base, everything can be accomplished.


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## mograph (Jan 22, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> 4) you missed the part about extending energy/force too


Could you elaborate, XS?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 22, 2016)

Zeny said:


> So basically the benefits can be summed up as follows:
> 
> 1) can help in empty hand training
> 
> ...


Xue and Bill hit the bullseye, and these notions can be expressed in different ways.  Bills comment on grounding, yeah that especially.

Also, they are simply interesting, in my opinion.  Not everyone has a sword or spear or axe or big knife of various sorts, AND knows how to actually handle them.  I get a kick out of that.


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## ChenAn (Jan 22, 2016)

I used to practice several kind of cold weapons used kettle-bells. It was all good as long as you do it constantly and continuously. Despite of all benefits what weapon seemed give at the time, the only thing I retain today is some technical skills. All physical things washed away as stop practicing weapons meticulously due to time constrains.
So yeas it kind of gives you some benefits, but I think weapons are greatly overrated. I'm not saying we should practice it, but be caution what to expect. 

Depending on the taiji method you incorporate it is easy to get body mechanic wrong when practicing weapons while have false feeling of improve body development. So to me, unless body method is established in the bare-hand form there is no rush to jump to the weapon training. It will not extend or improve anything this way. It may just work opposite.


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 22, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If all weapons training did for me was help me to ground myself better, that would be enough to make me want to keep doing it.  You have no idea how important it is to have a solid foundation.  One might say 'not much' but I would say 'nearly everything'.  From a solid base, everything can be accomplished.





Zeny said:


> So basically the benefits can be summed up as follows:
> 
> 1) can help in empty hand training
> 
> ...


Well there is the extra benefit of actually knowing how to use the weapon, so if you happen to have that weapon on hand then you can use it defend yourself.  The ultimate truth with any weapon is that it only works when you have it.  This is even true for guns.  
Here is an article about a guy who tried to defend himself with a staff like object. He swings it like a baseball bat fairly easily (you can stop the video at 12seconds to get the point).  Based on the video it's clear that he didn't have any weapons training by how he was trying to attack the person. Even if I was in that situation, I would have taken up a defensive position and utilized jabs with the weapon to stop a charging person.  The other issue about having a solid foundation is also shown in the video as the guy falls down while swinging the object.  If you are in an area were there is anything similar to a staff and his hard enough to deal a few blows then you'll be able utilize staff skills.  If you are anywhere with a blade or stabbing object then you'll be able to use your knife fighting skills.  If you are in an area where you can pick up a chair to defend yourself, you'll probably have a better job with using the chair to defend yourself  through your understanding of using weapons even if you have never used that weapon before.  
Machete Attack Vs Staff like object


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## Blindside (Jan 22, 2016)

To completely derail the topic.  If actually learning to functionally use the weapon is a goal of the form.  How often to Tai Chi practitioners actually train the swordsmanship against another practitioner?


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## greytowhite (Jan 23, 2016)

Jeez... I dunno man. The only time I've ever used my CMA weapons stuff is against FMA and JMA guys.


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## East Winds (Jan 23, 2016)

Of course, adding a tassel brings a whole new dimension to sword control and form.

Very best wishes
Alistair


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## Blindside (Jan 23, 2016)

greytowhite said:


> Jeez... I dunno man. The only time I've ever used my CMA weapons stuff is against FMA and JMA guys.



Doesn't that seem a bit odd if you are actually trying to learn how to use a weapon?


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## ChenAn (Jan 23, 2016)

East Winds said:


> Of course, adding a tassel brings a whole new dimension to sword control and form.
> 
> Very best wishes
> Alistair




 If you blood dripping off your sword then yes a tassel bring the whole new dimension 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## greytowhite (Jan 25, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Doesn't that seem a bit odd if you are actually trying to learn how to use a weapon?



Mmm... well most if not all of my weapons fights have been with guys from FMA and JMA growing up. My aikido instructor was very insistent we learn the sword and staff. Angel Cabales and other big names in FMA were all through my hometown. Most of the internal Chinese martial artists I know aren't really fighters and have little interest in using their arts martially. Also the maxim, "A weapon is just an extension of the body" is pretty popular in the gong fu world so most people just work on forms or neigong. The FMA and JMA guys are usually a lot more willing to scrap and now I have some tactics they don't expect and some body methods they have a hard time countering. I find that "...actually trying to learn how to use a weapon" is best done with people actually willing to fight.


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