# Rank From Outside Your Art



## MJS (Dec 21, 2007)

What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art?  In other words, here is a hypothetical situation.  Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo.  Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc.  Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist.  When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.  

Do you think that this is right?  Should you accept rank from someone outside your group?  Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?

Let the discussion begin! 

Mike


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## Big Don (Dec 21, 2007)

That doesn't quite seem right in either circumstance. Taking rank from outside Kenpo altogether seems like cheating, as someone not versed in Kenpo would not nessecarily know  if your skills were up to the new rank. 
Taking rank from a different variety of Kenpo also seems crooked. As much as there are many things called Kenpo, the variations are too widespread for an instructor in one form to honestly or accurately evaluate the growth, skills and potential of a student of another.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2007)

I can't give rank in Kempo, Tai Chi Chuan, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, or anything other than Bando.

I can't give rank in Bando beyond a certain point, either, because of our associations rules and policies.

Therefore, if I accepted rank in Bando from someone in Kenpo, Tai Chi, the Bujinkan, or anywhere else, I'd be at best a hypocrite.


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## kosho (Dec 21, 2007)

Well, Hmmmmm good topic.

I feel that if you are in Kempo/kenpo and lets say someone in TKD is 3 degree's higher then you says you should be a higher rank. I would say thank you, But I would not take rank from them. But, if a person in a Kempo/kenpo system higher then me says with your time in, skill level, info you have ETC>>> and promotes me to a  higher degree in Kempo/kenpo then I feel that would hold more weight. So i feel that in kenpo/kempo the systems yet different all have the over all same idears.

take GrandMaster Elmer Jr. I had him up for a seminar.

He is truly skilled and has a ton of info: If he said I feel you are a 
... rank in kempo/kenpo I would strongly think about taking the new rank. 

Because he has a long time in the system of kempo/kenpo.

I could list a ton of kempo/kenpo people but you get the idear...

I hope this is what you ment...

Kosho

mike I see your Bank Roll is lower then Mine... LOL


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## Kacey (Dec 21, 2007)

If I were to cross-train (and I'd like to... someday...) I would only accept rank based on my performance in that art - not based on my ranking in my current art (TKD).  Now, if I were to start a new art and the instructor said "You're a black belt, I want you to wear a black belt so that the other students understand you're not a beginner", given the option, I'd turn it down.  I would certainly discuss my experience and background with the instructor and the class so they'd know what was going on - but if I started something new, I'd want to start at the bottom.

As far as being offered rank from another style... well... the value that my rank has to me is that it shows that people whose opinion I value - my sahbum and seniors - believe that I have reached a certain level of ability and knowledge.  A stranger wouldn't know that, wouldn't have seen me progress from white up to my current rank - and whatever rank that stranger, no matter how senior, experienced, well-respected, etc. offered me would not have that value behind it.  In this day of high-quality printers and widely available certificate blanks, I could make any certificate I wanted, at any rank - but the value my certificates hold are in the signatures of those whose opinion I value, representing their faith in me - not in the rank itself.


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## Blindside (Dec 21, 2007)

Seems a little silly to take rank from someone who isn't your instructor.  That said, being a bit of an kenpo orphan lineage ourselves, after some ridiculously long time at fourth degree, our head instructor went out and found a new instructor of a different kenpo lineage, he worked with him for a couple of years, then tested under him.  My instructor did not learn the entire American Kenpo system, that instructor didn't ask him to.  What that instructor did was look at the entirety of the material my instructor had, what he had added in new material, and at what level he was operating, and said, "you deserve a fifth."  That instructor lost students who were pissed that some "outsider" had come in and gotten promoted ahead of them.

At some point it isn't the curricullum, but what you can do.

Lamont


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## kosho (Dec 21, 2007)

*At some point it isn't the curricullum, but what you can do.

Lamont*

I agree

Kosho


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## Big Don (Dec 21, 2007)

If it isn't the curriculum that you have spent years learning, then it isn't the style you've trained in. If it isn't the style you've invested so much time and money in, is it worth it? Is rank nothing more than bragging rights? Shouldn't rank be a recognition of  your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?


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## LawDog (Dec 21, 2007)

First of all, Kenpo is Kempo is Kenpo and so on.

Besides their own preset material what helps to make one Kenpo style different from another are the different percentages of the various types of material, 
    *strikes to kicks, 
    *impacting to jujitsu,
    *self defense to offensive,
    *presets to forms and so on.
Even though their presets and percentages may be different what makes all Kenpo / Kempo styles the same are the various tacticle theories that are found in and are unique to Kenpo / Kempo.

If a American Kenpo black belt loses his instructor he cannot get promoted higher in American Kenpo by any Kenpoist who is from another version of Kenpo, lets say Kenpo / Jujitsu. However this Kenpo / Jujitsu black belt can promote / recognize the American Kenpo stylist to a higher rank in what is known as generic Kenpo.
Non Kenpoists cannot, as an individual or board, promote a Kenpoist is a higher rank in Kenpo.
In my area we have a Kenpo stylist who was promoted to 5th then later on 6th Dan in Kenpo. His actual Kenpo rank stops at 4th Dan.

:knight:


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Dec 21, 2007)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.
> 
> Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?
> 
> ...


 
The word "should" denotes a personal value judgement, so all you are going to get is what people have done.

And which they have done because of their own criteria.

Which does NOT mean anyone "should" do anything.

What is real amusing is that the one they left does feel bad, just like the one divorced in a marriage feels bad, hurt, indignant and is hateful.

The one that did the divorcing normally feels great because they got a lead weight off of their back.

Unless their peer groups, sent by their old trainer now attempt to intimidate them into going back with guru X.

Once the toilet is flushed it is flushed.

I did talk with Al Tracy about this some 20 years ago when I used to have those very juvenile concerns. 

He laughed and said, "all your students will leave you, eventually. Don't worry about it. Just train the new ones that come into the studio".

Worrying about "what might have been" is a one way path to Hell.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Blindside (Dec 21, 2007)

Big Don said:


> Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?


 
Yup absolutely, but you should note that "skills and abilities" are not based off of a specific curricullum.  

Does the fact that you do "Thrusting Salute" with an initial step to 4:30 and end with a palm-heel, and I do "Blocking the Kick" with an initial step to 5:00 and finish with a vertical punch really mean that either of our instructors couldn't look at either of us and say "yes you are good enough to be an orange belt."  

I'm all for specific curricullums and underbelt stages, standardization helps the learning process.  But AK runs out of fixed curricullum at 1st, 3rd, or 5th black depending on what curricullum you are running.  And at high ranks, the fact that you learned to spell phoenetically or by rote, means little compared to your ability to write a good paragraph.  

And someone tell SGM Parker's corpse that his 8th is no good because Sijo Emperado knows diddly about AK.  Do you think a guy who was a fifth black in kenpo and an innovator in his own right when Parker was a white belt, might be able to recognize good @#$# when he sees it?  

Lamont

(Note: I'd like to think all high rank is based of skills and abilities, but I'm afraid much of it is politics and ego.... bummer.)


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## Seabrook (Dec 22, 2007)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.
> 
> Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?
> 
> ...


 
I know someone who was promoted to 6th in Kenpo, as well as someone who was promoted to 8th in Kenpo, and both of their promotions were from instructors who did not study Kenpo whatsoever.

I think this is terrible, and is one of the reasons why martial arts so often gets a bad name.


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## SL4Drew (Dec 22, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I can't give rank in Kempo, Tai Chi Chuan, Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, or anything other than Bando.
> 
> I can't give rank in Bando beyond a certain point, either, because of our associations rules and policies.
> 
> Therefore, if I accepted rank in Bando from someone in Kenpo, Tai Chi, the Bujinkan, or anywhere else, I'd be at best a hypocrite.


 


			
				BigDon said:
			
		

> That doesn't quite seem right in either circumstance. Taking rank from outside Kenpo altogether seems like cheating, as someone not versed in Kenpo would not nessecarily know if your skills were up to the new rank.
> Taking rank from a different variety of Kenpo also seems crooked. As much as there are many things called Kenpo, the variations are too widespread for an instructor in one form to honestly or accurately evaluate the growth, skills and potential of a student of another.


 
First let me say, I think it all depends. Then let me say it doesn't matter. And I generally don't care. 

I think there are several Kenpo people that Dr. Gyi has 'acknowledged' not only as members of American Bando, but also in Kenpo. (Joe Palanzo comes to mind.) So does that make them illegitmate? Maybe, just maybe, a high level person in one system can recognize a talented martial artist in another system. 

I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in. So were they wrong in giving him more stripes? Mr. Parker gave belts and ranks to people for a lot of different reasons. He continued to promote Chuck Sullivan, who taught in the West LA school but never learned the later Motion Kenpo material. So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank, so what do we make of any of those promotions after he came to the mainland?

We could go on and on, which is why I don't care. Especially after something like 3rd or 5th, how do you judge that? Can you give rank for longevity? Should it be judged strictly on performance? Or maybe after 5th degree it is all about being a scholar and your ability to teach. Or maybe you're dying of cancer? Maybe you brought Kenpo to a whole country or state and you have hundreds of belts under you. Should that count for anything?

Ultimately, I think it is largely between you and your instructor. If they want to promote you, who am I to say 'no.' I can have my own opinions about the person's skill, but that's how I look at it--a question of opinion on skill or knowledge, rather than the rank. If you want to put on a 10th degree and look silly, be my guest.

I am generally of the opinion that outside of the school or same instructor, stripes don't tell you a whole lot. A purple belt in one school might be a high brown in another. You can put on 15 stripes or a white belt, but I'll still judge you on what I see and/or learn.


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## arnisador (Dec 22, 2007)

SL4Drew said:


> I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in.



What other options did he have after Mr. Parker's death?



> So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank



Indeed, he was self-promoted to 10th degree (and rightly so, I think). The validity of the rank ultimately comes from the students who follow you and want to learn from you. You might get promoted to 9th degree by a 10th degree, but if people don't respect him or her, what does it matter?

Indeed, I believe in some traditional Japanese systems the person inheriting the title of Soke could, in principle, not be versed in the art...he inherits the authority for--really the ownership of--the system. But this is quite empty if no one wishes to learn it.

Your students or peers (if a competitive art) give you the rank, ultimately. True authority to govern comes from a mandate of the people.


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## Danjo (Dec 22, 2007)

Ed Parker started with Sijo Emperado and then went to Prof. Chow. Sijo was Chow's first black belt and chief instructor. So at least he didn't go too far outside of his lineage to get the 8th degree promotion.

As to the rest of the question: when I went to train with Prof. Bishop, he said, "Yep you're a brown belt in Shotokan and Shaolin Kempo.", and he let me wear my brown belt while training, but wouldn't let me wear a Kajukenbo patch till I tested for it a year after I started training with him. I had the techniques memorized from the video tapes I had bought from him a year prior to joining his school and I had solid basics from the other arts I had studied. But Kajukenbo doesn't cross rank or video test, and it took me a year with Prof. Bishop to get the techniques down to his satisfaction for brown belt in Kajukenbo before he tested me.

So, two brown belts from other arts and a year practicing with the Kajukenbo techniques before joining still equaled one solid year of live training with him to get to brown belt in Kajukenbo.

I wouldn't have had it any other way.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 22, 2007)

Big Don said:


> If it isn't the curriculum that you have spent years learning, then it isn't the style you've trained in. If it isn't the style you've invested so much time and money in, is it worth it? Is rank nothing more than bragging rights? Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?


 
I think that is exactly what Lamont said.

"Shouldn't rank be a question of your skills and abilities?"
"It's not the curriculum, it's what you can do."

I think you guys are on the same page.  

I have seen people in kenpo receive higher rank from others in kenpo based on years of service, abilities, etc.  Typically, from what I have seen and/or read, the rank is usually given by a master of a particular style, or a group of masters from several particular styles, and the rank is given as a general Kenpo rank.  Like when Ed Parker "ranked" Nick Cerio.  It was not in Parker's Kenpo, or Cerio's Kenpo, it was in Kenpo.  As a caveat, though, I have seen this done at the higher ranks, like 8-10, typically to recognize the achievements of a peer or to recognize a succession when a deceased grandmaster did not arrange for one.


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## Rabu (Dec 22, 2007)

Belt rankings appear to be attributed to Jigaro Kano, and only applied to martial arts in 1883.  (thank you wiki 'sometimes have good info pedia)

There is no longer/deeper history to 'black belt' ranking as used in modern martial arts.  Titles or performance were probably the only real measurements going any further back.

There is no stadard.  Each system or group or club has their own standards which they apply to what they say a 'black belt' means.

I think Danjo has a good viewpoint.  

Rank should be meaningful to the individual and the standards they wish to be held to.  If you wish your rank to mean something to the people you join in a new club, you should determine what steps would be necessary with your chosen instructor to be able to obtain that rank.  (if rank is what your in it for)

All rank is 'honorary' in nature, since there is no standard across all systems which all systems recognize.


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2007)

SL4Drew said:


> I think there are several Kenpo people that Dr. Gyi has 'acknowledged' not only as members of American Bando, but also in Kenpo. (Joe Palanzo comes to mind.) So does that make them illegitmate? Maybe, just maybe, a high level person in one system can recognize a talented martial artist in another system.
> 
> I know Jeff Speakman touts several seniors that signed off on his promotions, but most of them never learned the Motion Kenpo system Jeff received his early rank in. So were they wrong in giving him more stripes? Mr. Parker gave belts and ranks to people for a lot of different reasons. He continued to promote Chuck Sullivan, who taught in the West LA school but never learned the later Motion Kenpo material. So was Ed Parker a hypocrite? Was Mr. Sullivan being dishonest for accepting the rank? Someone mentioned Mr. Parker's own rank, so what do we make of any of those promotions after he came to the mainland?
> .



It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA).  I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well.  I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando.  There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!"  Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.

I didn't call Jeff Speakman, or anyone else a hypocrite.  I said that I would be a hypocrite to either give rank in another system, or accept it from someone outside my system.  In his case, people from what I understand to be related systems acknowledged his expertise; I bow to their expertise.  I lack the specific knowledge to assess whether that was or was not appropriate.  However, if he had accepted the ranking IN KENPO from someone like Patrick Mcarthy or Dan Inosanto...  that'd be a different question.  At the very least, I'd say it's not a credible rank, despite either gentleman's expertise.  Though they might be qualified to assess Speakman, and say that what he has done is something new, and unique. 

But, on the larger scale, I do agree.  Comparing ranks across systems is pretty pointless.  Or, to put it another way, rank is only meaningful in comparison of similar things; you can't rank a better apple among oranges.  In a few cases, the style is well enough known and it's black belts carry a certain reputation -- but those are the exception, not the rule.  Sometimes, even within a system, it's hard to compare ranks because local instructors may promote even up to 3rd (or higher) black belt without consulting any national/international standards committee.  In general, rank is only meaningful within a system.


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## SL4Drew (Dec 23, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA). I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well. I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando. There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!" Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.
> 
> I didn't call Jeff Speakman, or anyone else a hypocrite. I said that I would be a hypocrite to either give rank in another system, or accept it from someone outside my system. In his case, people from what I understand to be related systems acknowledged his expertise; I bow to their expertise. I lack the specific knowledge to assess whether that was or was not appropriate. However, if he had accepted the ranking IN KENPO from someone like Patrick Mcarthy or Dan Inosanto... that'd be a different question. At the very least, I'd say it's not a credible rank, despite either gentleman's expertise. Though they might be qualified to assess Speakman, and say that what he has done is something new, and unique.
> 
> But, on the larger scale, I do agree. Comparing ranks across systems is pretty pointless. Or, to put it another way, rank is only meaningful in comparison of similar things; you can't rank a better apple among oranges. In a few cases, the style is well enough known and it's black belts carry a certain reputation -- but those are the exception, not the rule. Sometimes, even within a system, it's hard to compare ranks because local instructors may promote even up to 3rd (or higher) black belt without consulting any national/international standards committee. In general, rank is only meaningful within a system.


 
Just so I am clear, I wasn't calling you out. I respect Dr. Gyi, and he has a long, proud association with Kenpo. He's a great guy. I don't pretend to know exactly how he runs his system or association. I used him as an example because you brought up Bando and I respect him. I my mind a superior instructor is one that can take a guy from another system and not only teach him, but make the guy and his system better for it.  Dr. Gyi seems to be one of those men. 

I think we agree. I think this whole belt and lineage think is really a house of cards. As Rabu pointed out, the dan system is relatively young. Who made the first 2nd degree or 10th degree? Can anyone trace their lineage to that guy? Is that the only way to have legitmate rank? It all gets really silly at a point.


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## tellner (Dec 23, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> It's my understanding that there are a number of individuals that *Dr. Gyi has recognized as being masters of their own system, and either offered them membership or brought them into the American Bando Association as Honorary or Associate Members, *distinguished from Full Members (black belts in the ABA) and Student Members (any other member of the ABA).  I also know that Dr. Gyi has extensive training in at least a few other martial arts, as well.  I don't believe anyone has been "given" rank in the ABA without training in Bando.  There's no doubt that a talented or highly skilled person in any field can recognize talent within the larger field; a good trombonist can recognize a good piano player, for example, just like a highly skilled martial artist can look at another person and say "Now, he (or she) is GOOD!"  Giving esteem is not the same as awarding rank.



And that's where he screwed up big time. It's one thing to say "Oliver Shagnasty? He's a damned fine martial artist. And I should know because I'm one, too." It's quite another to give Sifu Shagnasty a certificate and some sort of status in your completely unrelated organization and style. I've seen it happen to a depressing number of martial artists. It came back to bite them somewhere painful. After the inevitable parting of the ways the guys who got the party favors used them to claim status and skills that they didn't deserve and never had. It brought the giver's judgment into question and his reputation took a serious hit. The ranking of actual students was diluted.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> What are your thoughts on getting rank from someone outside of your main art? In other words, here is a hypothetical situation. Lets say you're ranked a 5th in Parker Kenpo. Something happens to your instructor, you leave the org. ,etc. Next time someone sees you, you're walking around with a 6th on your waist. When questioned, you state that you got your rank from someone outside of the art of Kenpo altogether or you received it from a different branch of Kenpo, ie: Tracy.
> 
> Do you think that this is right? Should you accept rank from someone outside your group? Should you have sought out another teacher from your original art?
> 
> ...



I am not a practitioner of Ken/mpo. But I know some who do.  

While I agree all rank should be based upon skill sets and knowledge and teaching capabilities and such, the issue is rank in System A given by a person from System B. 

There is recognition of skill sets done by peers, and this is a different topic.

This issue is about a person in Art A going to someone in Art B and getting a title or Rank. I will go into further discussion on this. If Art A and Art B are all Parker Kenpo then I argue that it is not Art A and Art B, but Art A and Art A' and possible Art or System A'' and so forth. But for someone in th FMA's to go to a Kenpo event and come back with rank and titles for their FMA system is not a good thing. But is the people of System B wish to rank them in System B, and the rank is in System B and not in System A then this a different arguement about transferring rank and skill to other arts. 

I personally believe that someone in a similar art can recognize a person. They could even grant rank in their own system. 

The big issues come when their is a vacuum at the top then what do people do. Of course there are lots of ways to handle this and all have postive and negative issues around them. But it should be either handled internally, or with peers or with people from a sister art, and not from something totally different. 

But that is my opinion and it means very little on the street and else where.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Dec 23, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> I personally believe that someone in a similar art can recognize a person. They could even grant rank in their own system.


 

I was gonna say the same but you beat me to it.


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## MJS (Dec 23, 2007)

Wow, lots of great answers.  For myself, I view it like this.  If you were in the Tatum org, then left and went to Palanzo and he promoted you another degree, I see nothing wrong with that, as its still Parker Kenpo.  If a TKD inst. offered to promote you, I'd have to flat out refuse it due to the fact that he probably knows nothing about Kenpo.  If you went to a Tracy school, IMO, I'd still say that it would be wrong, due to the fact that while there're similarities, its not Parker Kenpo.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Dec 23, 2007)

I got ahold of a Tracy Kenpo manual. My teacher has to be affiliated with Tracy, to some degree, because he was honored this year at the gathering of Eagles. But I looked at a manual for the various belts and the moves from the Tracy manual are pretty different from ours. So it doesnt make a great study guide for me.
So I'll take this question a step further. Is there a vast degree of difference between each Tracy school as to what's taught, at what level? Our is my class kind of off the Tracy curriculum since the order is so different from the official manual? Our system is called "Chuan Fa America" so that may have something to do with it.


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## Gentle Fist (Dec 23, 2007)

If this question was asked about an art like "Judo" it would not be such a problem.  Judo has a official set of throws and the only difference in the different associations is the order that they follow.  A throw is a throw so to speak.

Kenpo is all over the place with it's number of moves and the ridiculous number of forms and one step self defense techs makes it close to impossible to crossover overnight.  I would be weary of anyone (Dan level) who was EPAK one year and Shaolin the next and claimed a parallel move.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Dec 23, 2007)

fistlaw720 said:


> If this question was asked about an art like "Judo" it would not be such a problem. Judo has a official set of throws and the only difference in the different associations is the order that they follow.


 
The same could also be said of the different Karate styles.  Most of them have the same kata with only minor technical differences for the most part, but the order that the kata are taught is different.


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## arnisador (Dec 23, 2007)

Well, I think the difference is bigger there--look at the stance differences and punching styles between Isshin, then Goju, then Uechi. I see bigger differences between even just Okinawan styles of Karate than between Judo or even ost FMA schools.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 23, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> I got ahold of a Tracy Kenpo manual. My teacher has to be affiliated with Tracy, to some degree, because he was honored this year at the gathering of Eagles. But I looked at a manual for the various belts and the moves from the Tracy manual are pretty different from ours. So it doesnt make a great study guide for me.
> So I'll take this question a step further. Is there a vast degree of difference between each Tracy school as to what's taught, at what level? Our is my class kind of off the Tracy curriculum since the order is so different from the official manual? Our system is called "Chuan Fa America" so that may have something to do with it.


 
If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted.  Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.  

That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.

Sort of a side topic to this one, really.  People in the same organization teaching different material, yet accepting and bestowing rank as one.

I don't have a problem with it.  All trees have roots and branches.  Even apples that fall off that still come from the same tree.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Dec 24, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Well, I think the difference is bigger there--look at the stance differences and punching styles between Isshin, then Goju, then Uechi. I see bigger differences between even just Okinawan styles of Karate than between Judo or even ost FMA schools.


 
True, but unless you're planning to switch from taking 1 style to taking 3 styles at one time, then it shouldn't be too difficult to make those adjustments in a relativly short time.  The Okinawa Kenpo school I went to taught Shotokan up until the previous year and from my understanding all of the students transitioned over in that year timespan.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Dec 24, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted. Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.
> 
> That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.
> 
> ...


 
Allright thanks for clearing that up.

Dave M


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## Karatedrifter7 (Dec 24, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> If your teacher was inducted into the Hall of Fame, that simply means he was nominated and accepted. Many who are not affiliated with Tracy's were inducted.
> 
> That said, if the techniques are the same, but in different order, your teacher may teach an earlier version of the current Tracy's curriculum.
> 
> ...


 
But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.


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## Blindside (Dec 27, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.


 
At our school you would have two options; start over with a white, or continue to wear your green belt but you would continue to wear your old uniform or simply a plain one.  You could wear our uniform when you equalled your old rank.

You would advance as fast as you could advance, which if the basic material is already there, is going to be very rapid.  But we need to know how well you know the material, and how we teach it, so we would not simply grant someone a green.

Lamont


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## Karatedrifter7 (Dec 27, 2007)

Got ya.


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## Wanderer (Dec 28, 2007)

> Originally posted by *Kacey*
> Now, if I were to start a new art and the instructor said "You're a black belt, I want you to wear a black belt so that the other students understand you're not a beginner", given the option, I'd turn it down.


 


> Originally posted by *Big Don*
> Shouldn't rank be a recognition of your skills and abilities, not just an ego thing?


 
Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.

A white belt is a beginner.  A white belt does not know how to strike effectively, evade effectively, attack along lines that the opponent cannot perceive, etc.  While there is difference between styles, many skills and principles carry through.  
I believe the only accurate assessment is to acknowledge previous rank, while recognizing that it is of a different style.

Also, it may be a rank of a different style, but it is a valid rank, and to wear any other is to pretend to be something that you are not.  I can just imagine a 2nd degree black belt in Tang Soo Do trying to compete as a white belt in a Tae Kwon Do tournament because he just recently started Tae Kwon Do.


Anthony


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## Wanderer (Dec 28, 2007)

A separate post to address the original topic of the thread.



> Originally posted by *MJS*
> Wow, lots of great answers. For myself, I view it like this. If you were in the Tatum org, then left and went to Palanzo and he promoted you another degree, I see nothing wrong with that, as its still Parker Kenpo. If a TKD inst. offered to promote you, I'd have to flat out refuse it due to the fact that he probably knows nothing about Kenpo.


 
If I had a 3rd degree black belt in Kenpo, then studied Tae Kwon Do for a while and the Tae Kwon Do instructor wanted to promote me to 4th degree, I would accept the rank.

It would not be a &#8216;Kenpo&#8217; promotion.  That rank would be a Tae Kwon Do rank, a valid 4th degree Tae Kwon Do rank, awarded by someone with the authority to do so.  I believe it would be silly not to acknowledge my skills in style X just because I studied style Y first.

Anthony


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## Kacey (Dec 28, 2007)

Wanderer said:


> Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.
> 
> A white belt is a beginner.  A white belt does not know how to strike effectively, evade effectively, attack along lines that the opponent cannot perceive, etc.  While there is difference between styles, many skills and principles carry through.
> I believe the only accurate assessment is to acknowledge previous rank, while recognizing that it is of a different style.
> ...



Would I expect the instructor to recognize my previous experience and inform other students of my rank - for safety reasons, if nothing else? Certainly.  Does that mean I should be eligible for promotion in a different art to something above the rank I hold in my core art?  I really don't think so.  

I've spent 20+ years getting to my current rank (IV Dan) and while I could reasonably expect that I might progress more quickly in a different - especially related - art, the depth and breadth of knowledge that I have in TKD would take a significant about of time to duplicate in another style.  Perhaps not as long as it did in TKD, because, as you said, some of the principles would be the same - but the devil's in the details, and those would be different.  Promotion, to me, implies a mastery of techniques at a certain level - and while parallel experience may _speed _mastery, it does not _equal _mastery.

Likewise, I would have no problem progressing more quickly in a different art - just _how_ quickly would depend on how similar the arts are.  In some ways greater similarity would be an advantage; in other ways, it would be a disadvantage, because the similar details would be hard to differentiate.

Competition is yet another issue and would have to be dealt with appropriately and individually - but just as it would be unreasonable for a II Dan in TSD to compete as a white belt in TKD, it would be unreasonable for a II Dan in TSD to compete as a II Dan in TKD without a significant amount of experience in the differences in rules and techniques.  As I said, not as long as if the person had no experience in MA - but again, the devil is in the details.


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## Ray (Dec 29, 2007)

Wanderer said:


> Big Don, this is exactly why I disagree with Kacey, and would be suspicious of any school that does not acknowledge my previous experience, albeit in a different style.


Having moved around, whenever I go to a different school, if the instructor asks about my experience I tell him.  If he says wear my current rank, I'm okay with it; if he says wear a white belt, I'm okay with that, too.

If I go somewhere and they don't ask about my rank, then I'll just wear a white belt.  They usually notice that I'm not an absolute beginner and then ask - then we decide, at their discretion, what belt I'll wear.  I'm not usually at a place to show them what I know, I'm usually there to learn things I don't know.

One place I was going to, just for "fight night," the instructor told me to wear a white belt.  People noticed the "white belt" and asked how come I was "so good."  He told them I was a kenpo man, the person asking the question then commented something to the effect of kenpo must be a superior art if that's how a kenpo white belt fights.  The instructor then told me to wear my black belt at his place.


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## KenpoDave (Dec 29, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> But something else comes to mind. Suppose I was to move into your town with a Green Belt from my system? Where would you start someone like me? Would I begin at White, and you see how fast I advance? I think you are right this is an older version of Tracy's Kenpo.


 
If you wanted to learn my system, yes, you would start at the beginning and advance as rapidly as applicable.  However, the fact of your previous experience would not be a secret to anyone.

There are people I have run across who will obtain an advanced degree in a style, then change styles and wear a lower belt simply because they do "better" in tournaments.  Sad.

Here in Louisiana, there are still a few companies who move houses.  When the house is moved, it is still a house, but no matter where it lands, it gets a new foundation.  

If you switch arts, you still "are what you are."  But, you need to take the time to learn the new foundation.  My system builds on itself.  You may be a black belt, but part and parcel of being a black belt in my system is knowing the required curriculum.


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## Doc (Dec 29, 2007)

Someone once asked me if I was a 10th degree. I said, "No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night."

Doesn't it really matter? You take any organization, profession, activity, etc. They are not all created equal. Take the lofty position of Medical Doctor. These people go through many hours of training, education, study, examination, and certifications to wear the title. Some are good, some are bad, and you should always seek a second opinion.

Don't call me grandmaster, cause I like "your majesty" better. Check please!

Filed under the heading, "Who cares?" unless you're in business and you're afraid the jerks will hurt your bottom line. Personally, all the 10ths make me look good wearing no stripes.


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## IWishToLearn (Dec 30, 2007)

Don't you carry your 10th holstered anywho?


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## Doc (Dec 30, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> Don't you carry your 10th holstered anywho?



40 CAL/KD Baby. Don't leave home without it!


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Jan 3, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Would I expect the instructor to recognize my previous experience and inform other students of my rank - for safety reasons, if nothing else? Certainly. Does that mean I should be eligible for promotion in a different art to something above the rank I hold in my core art? I really don't think so.


 
You might enjoy the following story.

Back in 1970-73 I taught Taekwon-do Chin Mu Kwan in the Southern Oregon area. One of my students (Bob) was a Green Belt (oh kup, 5th kyu) and joined the Army after graduating from college (SOC).

He was stationed in korea , so he went down to work out at the local base dojang (dojo/gym).

That night, after the Cha Yu Taeryon (free sparring) part of training his Korean Son Seng Nim spot promoted him to Cho Dan (1st Dan).

I found that amusing. Hell. He wasn't even very good.

And he did wear that black belt with pride.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Jan 3, 2008)

KenpoDave said:


> Here in Louisiana, there are still a few companies who move houses. When the house is moved, it is still a house, but no matter where it lands, it gets a new foundation.
> 
> If you switch arts, you still "are what you are." But, you need to take the time to learn the new foundation. My system builds on itself. You may be a black belt, but part and parcel of being a black belt in my system is knowing the required curriculum.


 
Haha!

I loved your isomorphic metaphor.

Quick understanding at a deep level.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## tellner (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm not sure what you mean by isomorphism in this context. I'm only familiar with the term in mathematics. Could you please clarify?

Tnx,
Todd


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## MJS (Jan 4, 2008)

Wanderer said:


> A separate post to address the original topic of the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Let me make sure I'm understanding this.  You said, if you studied TKD for a while.  How long is a while?  1 yr?  5 yrs?  Would you take that 4th degree if you didn't know all of the material up to 4th?  

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding you here, but unless you were to put a large amount of time in and knew all the material required to 4th dan in TKD, taking that rank, IMO, is worthless.  As far as acknowledging your skill....your skill is in Kenpo, not TKD.  Just because one can do Kenpo well, doesnt mean they'd perform the same in TKD.


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## SenseiKeith (Jan 4, 2008)

Hello All,

I would have to agree with the point of view that if one trains in Kempo/Kenpo  and then is offered a promotion in rank by TKD for a Kenpo/Kempo rank that would be silly. If the person in TKD was going to rank the person in Karate and the person had the skills and abilities of someone that is of said rank, well then thats another story. 

With each technique  you learn there are  principles and concepts. A person can learn these concepts from many sources. For example I will take a technique from EPAK 
Thundering Hammers and a technique from SKK combination number 3. 

Both techniques are different but if you look at them closely you can see where they are similar. With this being said I feel that if the rank is a generic one and the person truly possesses the knowledge and have the ability to give a generic rank, whats the problem?

I wouldn't expect a TKD guy to give me a Kenpo/Kempo promotion or even a TKD promotion. I would expect to receive a generic rank in Karate. 

Now from a Kempo/Kenpo person giving a new rank to a fellow Kempo/Kenpo person. Well if it was a generic Kempo/Kenpo ranking I would have to think about it. 

In the end as some of you guys have stated it is about ability/skill and knowledge of the person. I would have to see it in order to believe it.

Just my 2cents,
Keith


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## jks9199 (Jan 4, 2008)

Something else that has occurred to me on this topic...

I recently read a copy of a letter endorsing someone's ranking in a particular system.  (While it was posted on the internet, I'm not linking too it, in part because I don't want to dig through everything I did the first time...)  It was written by a well-known, highly ranked martial artist whose skills are well-respected.  It basically read "As you requested, I endorse your rank in <a different style than the writer's>..."  The key thing to me was that it was clearly written in response to a request for external validation from this person.  I'd look at that letter much differently as proof of someone's skill than one that read more like "I recently had the opportunity to train with you; it's clear to me that you are highly deserving of your umpty-ninth ranking."  Yes, I know, both could have been requested by the subject, just written differently.  The first one clearly was a case of seeking an outside confirmation; the second at least on its surface, is written solely to acknowledge the skill, without prompting.  

To me, if I see that someone has clearly looked outside his style for endorsement of his rank, I have to wonder if there's a reason people from his own style haven't endorsed it.   Maybe I'm just untrusting..


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## Kacey (Jan 4, 2008)

SenseiKeith said:


> I wouldn't expect a TKD guy to give me a Kenpo/Kempo promotion or even a TKD promotion. I would expect to receive a generic rank in Karate.



Am I understanding this correctly?  Are you saying that, while performing Kenpo/Kempo, you would accept Karate rank from a TKD practitioner, even though Karate is a style of its own?  Why?  I _am_ a TKD practitioner, and I can't imagine ranking anyone in Karate; I don't _know_ Karate.  I realize that Karate is a generic term used for martial arts by many people, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a style of its own.

Rank, IMHO, is specific to the style in which it is conferred; each style - and often each organization that teaches a particular style - has its own requirements and standards.  Students who can demonstrate those requirements and standards at an acceptable level should be awarded the rank commensurate with their skills - in the art in which they demonstrated them.  No other form of rank signifies.  

If your personal integrity allows you to accept rank presented in any other fashion, that is between you and your instructor (and students, if you have any); mine does not allow me to accept rank I have not earned.  Now, there may be people - such as the example given in this post in another thread - who demonstrate that they have met the requirements and standards differently, but such people still have, IMHO, _met _the requirements.

Belts and certificates are easy to come by - especially in the computer age - knowing that you have _earned_ what you have is worth much more, and is much harder to achieve - but it's worth it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Something else that has occurred to me on this topic...
> 
> I recently read a copy of a letter endorsing someone's ranking in a particular system. (While it was posted on the internet, I'm not linking too it, in part because I don't want to dig through everything I did the first time...) It was written by a well-known, highly ranked martial artist whose skills are well-respected. It basically read "As you requested, I endorse your rank in <a different style than the writer's>..." The key thing to me was that it was clearly written in response to a request for external validation from this person. I'd look at that letter much differently as proof of someone's skill than one that read more like "I recently had the opportunity to train with you; it's clear to me that you are highly deserving of your umpty-ninth ranking." Yes, I know, both could have been requested by the subject, just written differently. The first one clearly was a case of seeking an outside confirmation; the second at least on its surface, is written solely to acknowledge the skill, without prompting.
> 
> To me, if I see that someone has clearly looked outside his style for endorsement of his rank, I have to wonder if there's a reason people from his own style haven't endorsed it. Maybe I'm just untrusting..


 

This is how I read it as well and like you we are from the real world where skepticism is always good! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (matter of fact I think I know exactly the situation that you just described)


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## arnisador (Jan 4, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Rank, IMHO, is specific to the style in which it is conferred; each style - and often each organization that teaches a particular style - has its own requirements and standards.  Students who can demonstrate those requirements and standards at an acceptable level should be awarded the rank commensurate with their skills - in the art in which they demonstrated them.  No other form of rank signifies.



Things are a little different for some arts. Different styles of FMA are often considered to be mostly just different interpretations of the same basic moves. There usually aren't anyos (kata), nor are techniques within a given art meant to be interpreted in the precise, just-so way that, say, Karate techniques often are.  I can differentiate the four major styles of Okinawan Karate from one another easily; within a few moves I can tell you if a person is doing Isshin, Goju, Shorin, or Uechi. I can't do that with most FMAs. I can pick up some general differences in emphasis, but can't usually tell you what the style is. (There are exceptions.) Indeed, while in many cultures forming a new art could be considered disrespectful--Tatsuo Shimabuku famously sought permission and recognition from other Karate masters before starting Isshin-ryu--in the FMAs it's traditionally been expected that if you're any good you'll start your own school teaching your own approach, under your own system's name. The point is, from when I studied Karate I believe it'd be absurd to have a Karateka from one system rank someone in another in almost all cases. (However, there _is _a precedent for recognizing that someone in another system is at a senior level, qualified to be addressed as a GM or equivalent. Indeed, what the ZNKR does for iaido, with a standardized set of techniques done by people in the different styles who then do their own material in addition, is a form of this, and similarly for kyudo, etc.) However, for many FMAs I would find nothing as fundamentally inappropriate about such a thing, though it's still uncommon and I'd still have concerns about the fact that these arts _do _have their own curricula and hence you can't truly _rank _that person in some sense. But again, in the FMA there's always been less of an emphasis on the specific techniques and more on how one moves than in other arts I've studied.

So, I largely agree with you, but I want to point out that different types of arts have different approaches and standards, and it's much less surprising in some circumstances than in others.


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## Kacey (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm certainly not disputing that things are different in different arts - my comments were more in regard to SenseiKeith's comment that he would accept generic Karate rank from a TKD practitioner; within variations of an art it would depend on the level of similarity and how the ranking was determined within the art.


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Jan 7, 2008)

tellner said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by isomorphism in this context. I'm only familiar with the term in mathematics. Could you please clarify?Tnx,Todd


 
I've already replied privately to Todd and gave him the definition used by those in my field.

What I am curious about is that he is the first one on either kenpotalk or martialtalk to ask for a definition of that word.

My point being, is just maybe, much of the condemning I read is about people NOT understanding what the person they are judging is really talking about because neither of them take the time to clarity definitions, values, criteria, etc?

Thank you Todd.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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## Michael Billings (Jan 7, 2008)

Remembering the topic is rank from OUTSIDE your art, I would think that accepting that rank is an issue between you and your teacher.  I could be Kenpo specific about it, but that really gets into the politics of the rank seekers and inflated red on belts.  Keeping out of ones own art/system, if you are training with your instructors knowledge and permission, there  is no reason not to display earned rank in the appropriate context, e.g. when attending a class or event.

The problem of course, is competition, sandbagging, egos, etc., which should receive quick correction if allowed to happen at all.  

When accepting a black belt from another system, when you are not training in that system, could just be recognition for your attainment of proficiency in whatever your mother art is.  Seen it done lots.  Do not think it is something I would want or ever accept, but hey, whatever floats your boat.  It is what it is, recognition.  Lots of other arts outside kenpo have guys heading it with multiple black belts and recognitions from lots of other arts.  I always wondered about it, was it just marketing?  Nope, it is part of the culture of their arts, Hapkidoist, ranked in Tae Kwon Do, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, and Escrima.  I look for their core art and go from there and try not to judge them.  It is part of their system's culture to hang bunches of certificates and pictures on the wall, me, I like windows instead.

-Michael


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## Doc (Jan 7, 2008)

A simple reminder, that when Parker chose to proliferate his art through a commercial business, he accepted the rank of black belts who came to his new IKKA. In fact, he even issued diplomas to most, and many are the beneficiaries of that policy, in that they've been promoted by some of those same people.

But Parker in his Kenpo Business maintained a policy that students are the responsibility of their teachers, and your skill and knowledge is their responsibility and not his. To that end Parker never flunked anyone in a test, and always asserted people will always know who is good, an who isn't no matter what the rank.


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## Danjo (Jan 7, 2008)

Doc said:


> A simple reminder, that when Parker chose to proliferate his art through a commercial business, he accepted the rank of black belts who came to his new IKKA. In fact, he even issued diplomas to most, and many are the beneficiaries of that policy, in that they've been promoted by some of those same people.
> 
> But Parker in his Kenpo Business maintained a policy that students are the responsibility of their teachers, and your skill and knowledge is their responsibility and not his. To that end Parker never flunked anyone in a test, and always asserted people will always know who is good, an who isn't no matter what the rank.


 
Doc, 

I notice your careful wording such as _"through a commercial business"_ and _"in his Kenpo business"_ and _"To that end"_ to qualify your statement. 

I take it that this is not an accident?


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## Kacey (Jan 7, 2008)

Dr John M La Tourrette said:


> I've already replied privately to Todd and gave him the definition used by those in my field.
> 
> What I am curious about is that he is the first one on either kenpotalk or martialtalk to ask for a definition of that word.
> 
> ...



And then... there are those of us who took chemistry, and didn't need to ask.  Convergence, in this context, is an interesting theory, and I don't dispute that many arts have similar features.  The difference, as they say, is in the details.  Similarities notwithstanding, I have no interest in receiving rank from arts I have not trained in, no matter how similar they may be to one I have trained in.  Others have different preferences; if accepting rank from similar but different organizations is something that you're offered, and it works for you, that's your choice - but my personal interpretation of integrity precludes accepting such offers.


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2008)

Danjo said:


> Doc,
> 
> I notice your careful wording such as _"through a commercial business"_ and _"in his Kenpo business"_ and _"To that end"_ to qualify your statement.
> 
> I take it that this is not an accident?



Well sir, you know I'm very deliberate in my wording. Rank was never an issue in the original Kenpo-Karate. Those that stayed and could handle the training, made black in about a year give or take a month or two. After that everyone just trained.

When Parker moved to Chinese Kenpo the rank issue was still never much of a thought either, with everyone divided into either students or teachers as the Chinese culture dictated.

Than the business of the art had to have a hierarchy, and a pecking order as the business grew and more people assumed more rank, and began to wear the new rank designation stripes.

Parker personally could care less and never wore stripes in all of his previous training. Ultimately he placed and first wore stripes at the rank of seventh, and this was prior to the "bar." He had seven stripes in a row on his belt, and he personally thought it was gaudy, but everyone else loved them and flaunted their stripes proudly. As the Big Kahuna, the CEO, the Chairman of the Board, he had to wear his as well. This is also why he embraced Tom Kelly's suggestion of the "bar," to help mitigate the ostentatious nature of the accouterment. That idea was ultimately executed incorrectly.  The 5th designation was to be a compilation of the stripes into a bar, and should have been a two and half inch bar, (5X 2 1/2) instead of a five inch brick. But once it was done it became the standard and Parker let it stand. Under the proper guideline, it would have been less of an ornament and 10th degree would have been a couple of 2 1/2 inch bars. Not bad.

I never wore the stripes either until it became a general Parker mandate in the IKKA, and even then I held out for quite a while, not wearing any stripes until around 1980, and wore them in Infinite Insights because I was in the books. When Parker passed away, I ultimately went back to the "old school" method I had grown up with and removed the stripes, and banned them for my lineage. They are a product and represent his commercial system, which I was never really a part of so .....

Anyway I think we would have all been a lot better off if everyone had to demonstrate their rank on the floor, instead of on their belt. I think everyone knows someone with a lot of red on their belt they consider pretty incompetent whose rank was sanctioned by Parker. Then there are others much lower in rank who have much respect. Than there are guys in the business who need to wear them. I have no problem with that either. Bottom line, most know who the real guys are, and they didn't draw their clues from the belts, but the man standing in front of them.

Parker gave out and sanctioned a lot of rank, some as high as 9th. But, if someone needs Parker's name on a diploma for credibility, than they aren't very good anyway.


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