# Poomse vs. Tul vs. Hyung



## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

Could someone give an informed explanation of what each of these terms mean?  Is there a true distinction between each word or are they equivalent synonyms?


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## DMcHenry (Dec 15, 2010)

Poomse is the term used by the WTF/Kukkiwon, Tul by the ITF, Hyung by older styles like TSD/KSD/SBD.

I believe Hyung was from more of a Chinese derived word.  The others are more native Korean for form and pattern.  (I may be off a bit here)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

In the KKW text book, each movement in the poomsae is called a 'poom'. In my researching Korean sword terminology, I found that postures are called 'se' or 'sae', so perhaps it is movement/posture? I've never seen the word actually defined however, so I'm guessing.

Daniel


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## clfsean (Dec 15, 2010)

DMcHenry said:


> I believe Hyung was from more of a Chinese derived word.  The others are more native Korean for form and pattern.  (I may be off a bit here)




IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian and Pyungahn is Korean for Pinan. I could be way off of that. It's been a really long time.

However, most CMA empty hand set names use "Quan/Kuen" (fist) to note a set name... i.e. Xiao Hong Quan (Small Red Fist) or Siu Moi Fah Kuen (Small Plum Flower Fist).

Sometimes you'll find used "Lu" (road or path) ... i.e. Chen shi Xin Jia Taiji Quan Yi Lu (Chen style new frame grand ultimate fist first road) or Hua Quan San Lu (Hua fist third road).  

On some arts it can vary between all sorts of terms (xing {shape}, zhang {palm}, fa {method}, etc... )


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 15, 2010)

Poomse just sounds strange to me.  I personally use the term 'forms'.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 15, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Poomse just sounds strange to me. I personally use the term 'forms'.


Of course, forms probably sounds strange (or boring) to non English speakers, so I guess it all works out.

Consider the different terms that we have for the same word.

Forms
Patterns 
Sets

One fencing school has some kind of forms and calles them etudes (a term from music theory).

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 15, 2010)

I hesitate to even comment on this, since I do not know this for certain.  BUT, I believe Poomsae means form and Hyung means pattern.. . It is my understanding that in the case of martial arts the two terms are interchangeable.  We only use the term hyung in our association.

Similar to the differences in much of the terminology between the old kwans and the KKW.  For example for stance we use the term Ja Sae, which I believe actually means posture.  I think the KKW uses Seogi, which I believe means stance.


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## dancingalone (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm interested in why each of the factions in TKD uses a different term.  Just because they can?  On the other hand, if there is a philosophical or deeper meaning attached to each variant, making the choice understandable and not arbitrary, that would be interesting to know.


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## DMcHenry (Dec 15, 2010)

> IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian and Pyungahn is Korean for Pinan.


 
Korean=pyungahn, Japanese=heian, Okinawan=pinan - all mean the same thing and refer to the same name of a form/kata/hyung set of 5 forms.  Translates to "peace & confidence" or close to that.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm interested in why each of the factions in TKD uses a different term. Just because they can? .


 
Like you expected them to agree on stuff? 

Now, my limited research indicates that Hyung was a word of Chinese origin and as indicated above a variation on Heian. 

Tul is a native Korean word from Han Gul as designed by King Se Jong. Many KLoreans I queried about this are not at all familar with the term "Tul" . I asked the Gneral's son once why that was and he indicated that it was a sowhat esoteric term. 

Now, it's been a while but I did hear General Choi explain to an extent why he changed the terminilogy from Hyung to Tul.  As best I can recall it was something like the literal translation of Hyung being a pattern like looking at a pattern in a piece of fabric or wall treatment and not really appropriate for designating a series of moves. He felt Tul was more appropriate. 

As for Poomsae, I can only guess that some  wanted  to choose something other than what was already being used.


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## clfsean (Dec 15, 2010)

DMcHenry said:


> Korean=pyungahn, Japanese=heian, Okinawan=pinan - all mean the same thing and refer to the same name of a form/kata/hyung set of 5 forms.  Translates to "peace & confidence" or close to that.



Something like that!! 

Like I said... a long time. Nobody that I talk to or see around town when I'm out even do them anymore. I always thought they were great.


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## puunui (Dec 15, 2010)

clfsean said:


> IIRC Hyung is Korean for Heian




I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind. I remember I looked them all up in a korean han moon and japanese kanji dictionary, and may even have written a post about that for tkd net, but it's been so long that frankly I forget at this point. Tul I never looked up because I don't think I could find the chinese han moon character for it, but I also want to say that I read an explanation about it from General Choi in one of his books about why he chose the word tul.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind.


Well, the kanji for kata is  &#24418; and the hanja for hyung is &#24418;, so that would be reasonable.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2010)

puunui said:


> I want to say that hyung translates to "kata" in japanese, but I am unclear in my mind. I remember I looked them all up in a korean han moon and japanese kanji dictionary, and may even have written a post about that for tkd net, but it's been so long that frankly I forget at this point. Tul I never looked up because I don't think I could find the chinese han moon character for it, but I also want to say that I read an explanation about it from General Choi in one of his books about why he chose the word tul.



I hope hyung actually translates to something like kata or pattern, instead of being the Korean version of "Heian".  If the latter, it would mean generations of Korean martial artists have been using the term incorrectly, much like the the Hawaiian Kempo people calling some of their forms "Pinians", even when they bear no relation to the Pinan karate forms at all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I hope hyung actually translates to something like kata or pattern, instead of being the Korean version of "Heian". If the latter, it would mean generations of Korean martial artists have been using the term incorrectly, much like the the Hawaiian Kempo people calling some of their forms "Pinians", even when they bear no relation to the Pinan karate forms at all.


Wouldn't be the first time something like that has happened. Plenty of words end up used incorrectly as they migrate from one culture to another.  Sometimes, a name or a word becomes associated with a thing, regardless of its actual correctness.

One question would be whether or not that particular hanja was in use in KMA prior to the Japanese occupation.

Damiel


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## clfsean (Dec 16, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, the kanji for kata is  &#24418; and the hanja for hyung is &#24418;, so that would be reasonable.
> 
> Daniel



That's xing2 or shape in Mandarin.

Interesting.


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## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Poomse just sounds strange to me. I personally use the term 'forms'.


 
But poomsae is the Korean term for forms, so why would it seem strange to any korean style person.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 16, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> But poomsae is the Korean term for forms, so why would it seem strange to any korean style person.


 
For the same reason "tul" might sound strange to some Korean stylists. 

There's lots of different terminology out there and  while there are times I find it easier to use Korean when discussing certain techniques (there is no "side kick" in ITF Taekwon-Do, for example, there are at least 4 side kicks I can think of off hand so what does "side kick" mean?) there will also be times when the differences in Korean used between the KKW and ITF will be confusing if you're talking to someone who isn't part of your group. 

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Dec 16, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> For the same reason "tul" might sound strange to some Korean stylists.
> 
> There's lots of different terminology out there and while there are times I find it easier to use Korean when discussing certain techniques (there is no "side kick" in ITF Taekwon-Do, for example, there are at least 4 side kicks I can think of off hand so what does "side kick" mean?) there will also be times when the differences in Korean used between the KKW and ITF will be confusing if you're talking to someone who isn't part of your group.
> 
> ...


 
Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 16, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?


 
Terry, if all you said to someone was to do a "side kick" (a yop chagi) they'd have to choose from the following techniques:

Yopcha momchugi
Yopcha jirugi
Yopcha milgi
Yopcha olligi
Yopcha tulgi

If you wanted to get technical they might also argue that Yobap cha busigi and Yop dollyo chagi qualify as "side kicks" (and from a purely body mechanics standpoint I'd say Bakuro noollo chagi is a "side kick," too). If all you say is "side kick" you really haven't given them enough information to know what you want.

It all goes back to my point that just because terminology is in Korean doesn't mean _everyone_ is going to get it. I still remember the first time I heard the term "poomsae." It was all Greek (not Korean) to me. I still think it sounds weird compared to tul but at least I know what it means now. 

Similar things can be seen in some Japanese styles. I dare say that many people know what a kata is. But how many of them know what a seiho is? 

Pax,

Chris


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 16, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Chris there is no sidekick in ITF TKD, then what do you call it, every ITF person I know does a sidekick?


 
To elaborate on Mr. Spiller's points the english terms for the various types of "side" kicks in the ITF syllabus  (Not neccessarily in order of the korean terms listed) are:

Side:
Piercing
Pressing (Inward and Outward)
Pushing
Thrusting
Checking
Rising

Although technicaly not enough information, if you tell an ITF student to do a "Side Kick"  most would understand lack of info to default to a side piercing kick.


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Although technicaly not enough information, if you tell an ITF student to do a "Side Kick"  most would understand lack of info to default to a side piercing kick.



I was about to make the same point, albeit on a more general TKD level.  If someone asked me to show a sidekick, I would likely default to the Korean side snap kick with the heel as the striking surface.


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## MSUTKD (Dec 16, 2010)

Poomsae means "articles for cultivating strength"; from the hanja.  Poomsae referrs to a collection; taeguek, palgwe and the yudanja forms.  Hyung is the Korean pronunciation of the hanja for kata. Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 16, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I was about to make the same point, albeit on a more general TKD level. If someone asked me to show a sidekick, I would likely default to the Korean side snap kick with the heel as the striking surface.


 
But this description doesn't really fit any of the kicks I mentioned above. None of the ITF "side kicks" use the heel. Nor do they really "snap" (if by "snap" you mean something like Shotokan's Yoko geri keage). You might consider a Yopcha jirugi to be close to what you're talking about but it doesn't "snap," it corkscrews towards the target akin to what a punch does. And it uses the footsword as an attacking tool not the heel. 

This just backs up my earlier comment to Terry. Terminology might sound weird to people who aren't used to it even if it is all Korean. For example, I've heard people talk about a "side thrust kick" as opposed to a "side snap kick" but what they mean is a side kick that uses a lot of hip twist and the heel or edge of the foot. But that's very different from an ITF Yopcha tulgi ("side thrust kick"). 

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Dec 16, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> But this description doesn't really fit any of the kicks I mentioned above. None of the ITF "side kicks" use the heel. Nor do they really "snap" (if by "snap" you mean something like Shotokan's Yoko geri keage). You might consider a Yopcha jirugi to be close to what you're talking about but it doesn't "snap," it corkscrews towards the target akin to what a punch does. And it uses the footsword as an attacking tool not the heel.
> 
> This just backs up my earlier comment to Terry. Terminology might sound weird to people who aren't used to it even if it is all Korean. For example, I've heard people talk about a "side thrust kick" as opposed to a "side snap kick" but what they mean is a side kick that uses a lot of hip twist and the heel or edge of the foot. But that's very different from an ITF Yopcha tulgi ("side thrust kick").
> 
> ...



Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences.  I consulted my copy of the Encyclopedia Vol 4 on pages 25-33 for the description of 'yopcha jurugi'.  Other than the use of the foot sword and the inward pulling of the foot sword to the stationary leg, that's roughly how I would execute what I call a side snap kick.  'Snap' in the way I use it (most others that I've come across, too) simply refers to the quick retraction and rechamber of the kicking leg, as it's a key part to producing 'trembling shock' power.

If you see important technical differences, so be it.  I do not.  When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'.  There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution.  I don't think it's a big deal.  The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences. I consulted my copy of the Encyclopedia Vol 4 on pages 25-33 for the description of 'yopcha jurugi'. Other than the use of the foot sword and the inward pulling of the foot sword to the stationary leg, that's roughly how I would execute what I call a side snap kick. 'Snap' in the way I use it (most others that I've come across, too) simply refers to the quick retraction and rechamber of the kicking leg, as it's a key part to producing 'trembling shock' power.
> 
> If you see important technical differences, so be it. I do not. When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'. There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution. I don't think it's a big deal. The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.


 
That's because a lot of the explanations for differences in execution an application of techniques such as Piercing, Striking, and Thrusting (Andother indfo like pressing, checking etc. ) are found in sections addressing those characteristics and not repeated for each technique. So, you would have to read those sections about the technique or for a limited explanation: 

http://sites.google.com/site/ntkdacad/articles

And Click on "A Punch, A Strike..."


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## miguksaram (Dec 17, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.


 
So it is a simple hangul written word? (tikut, u, riul - I don't have korean characters on my work keyboard)

I would like to see if my wife has ever seen this word written.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> So it is a simple hangul written word? (tikut, u, riul - I don't have korean characters on my work keyboard)
> 
> I would like to see if my wife has ever seen this word written.


 
&#53952;

Does that look familiar?  I don't have a Hangul keyboard at work either, but I do have copy and paste.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Dec 17, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> &#53952;
> 
> Does that look familiar? I don't have a Hangul keyboard at work either, but I do have copy and paste.
> 
> Daniel


 
Is that how it is spelled out?  That is actually T'iot, uu, riol.   I just want to be sure when I ask.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Is that how it is spelled out? That is actually T'iot, uu, riol. I just want to be sure when I ask.


According to Wikipedia (for what its worth), revised romanization is teul, which would be consistent with &#53952;
spelling.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> If you see important technical differences, so be it.  I do not.  When I say side snap kick, I AM referring to what you term the 'side piercing kick'.  There's only so many ways to kick, and anyone with years in Tae Kwon Do will likely come across the majority of them even if the vocabulary is different along with slight subtle differences in physical execution.  I don't think it's a big deal.  The saying about tomato, tomatoe, potato, potatoe comes to mind.




For me the Bruce Lee saying (which BL borrowed from Zen) "a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick..." comes to mind.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 17, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Honestly, Chris, I think you're overemphasizing the differences.


 
Yes, somewhat purposefully, too, in order to make my point about not recognizing something even if it's in Korean (which was the original point I was making in response to Terry's comment about poomse sounding weird).

Let me try making my point a different way. 

Do you think a non-ITF practitioner would find any of these terms weird if asked to demonstrate them?

Yopcha momchugi
Yopcha jirugi
Yopcha milgi
Yopcha olligi
Yopcha tulgi

You might be able to puzzle some of them out if you know KKW terminology or have a working knowledge of Korean, but some of them are just going to sound odd even for those who know Korean terminology from a different organization. That's my only point.

Pax,

Chris


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 17, 2010)

I've forgotten all my Korean besides attention, bow, count 1-10, begin, and return to attention stance, and I bet money that I butcher pronouncing all of those.


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## miguksaram (Dec 21, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> Tul is a purely Korean word and has no hanja equivalent.


 
Finally remembered to ask my wife about this today. The best way to describe Tul is at term Koreans used to describe something that is a premade pattern. An example would be like a cookie dough cutter. The pattern is already made ahead of time. There is you news you never knew you needed to know.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 21, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> I've forgotten all my Korean besides attention, bow, count 1-10, begin, and return to attention stance, and I bet money that I butcher pronouncing all of those.



As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.

That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 21, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.
> 
> That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.


You're thinking of '*Tie*' kwon do.  That is a separate art developed by office workers and involves the use of the tie as a weapon.

Skilled tiekwondo masters can snatch guns from a gunman's hands and can also be used like Indiana Jones' bullwhip.  

And don't let the fact that 'tae' is not in the name; a skilled tiekwondoist knows the value of Rockports, so kicking is strongly encouraged.

Daniel


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## puunui (Dec 21, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> As long as you don't butcher the pronunciation of Taekwondo.
> That's my #1 pet peeve when people say it as "Thai" Kwon Do.




Sometimes I wonder whether it would have been better to romanize it as Tech kwondo.


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## miguksaram (Dec 22, 2010)

puunui said:


> Sometimes I wonder whether it would have been better to romanize it as Tech kwondo.


 
You could have but then it would have been very wrong.  Korean language rules would dictate that in a word structure such tae &#53468; kwon &#44428; do &#46020; would have three distinct sounds and would not merge like some words would. The first part of the word ends with the vowel &#12624;(as in p*a*t). This signifies the next part starting with the consonant &#12593; (as in *k*ite) would be a distinct sound.  So when we romanize &#53468;&#44428;&#46020;, it should actually be spelled out as one word (taekwondo).  To spell it out as three seperate words is incorrect as each one by itself makes not sense in clarifying the overall meaning.

One of the hardest things about learning Korean language is remembering resyllabification rules. Certain combination of words will cause pronunciation to be different based on the letter structuring and give you a whole new definition.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 22, 2010)

All I ever see is squares when you guys post Korean/Japanese/Chinese characters.  Any way to fix this?


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## dancingalone (Dec 22, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> All I ever see is squares when you guys post Korean/Japanese/Chinese characters.  Any way to fix this?



You just need to enable support for the relevant character sets.  This should help walk you through the process if you're running Windows.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:How_to_display_foreign_characters


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## puunui (Dec 22, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You could have but then it would have been very wrong.




I'm sure it would be wrong, but at least more people would pronounce Taekwondo correctly. Could be worse, we could go with Dakin Burdick's thing and write it as "Taegwondo" with a ' in there someplace.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

Gen Choi preferred the English word pattern & the Korean word Tul over form & Hyung, as forms was too general a word. Someone could have good form, but do a lousy Hwarang Tul or pattern. In other words, their form can be good, but their Pattern can be technically inaccurate, incorrect etc. He felt pattern better described what students were actually doing on the floor


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## miguksaram (Dec 26, 2010)

puunui said:


> I'm sure it would be wrong, but at least more people would pronounce Taekwondo correctly. Could be worse, we could go with Dakin Burdick's thing and write it as "Taegwondo" with a ' in there someplace.


In the last few years Korea has re-romanized how their spelling of words.  A good example is Pusan is now Busan.  Dan Burdick's spelling is probably one of the closest to correctness in his whole "history" report.  However, if he is going to spell it with a 'g' then he needs to carry that rule throughout the word and spell it 'daegwondo'.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You could have but then it would have been very wrong.  Korean language rules would dictate that in a word structure such tae &#53468; kwon &#44428; do &#46020; would have three distinct sounds and would not merge like some words would. The first part of the word ends with the vowel &#12624;(as in p*a*t). This signifies the next part starting with the consonant &#12593; (as in *k*ite) would be a distinct sound. So when we romanize &#53468;&#44428;&#46020;, it should actually be spelled out as one word (taekwondo). To spell it out as three seperate words is incorrect as each one by itself makes not sense in clarifying the overall meaning.
> 
> *One of the hardest things about learning Korean language is remembering resyllabification rules. Certain combination of words will cause pronunciation to be different based on the letter structuring and give you a whole new definition.[/*quote]
> 
> ...


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## leadleg (Dec 26, 2010)

When someone says the new main language will be english do they mean American english or British english? Or is it oxford,because its not Scotts or Irish or Indian etc.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2010)

leadleg said:


> When someone says the new main language will be english do they mean American english or British english? Or is it oxford,because its not Scotts or Irish or Indian etc.


 
 It will be the Queen's English of course  surely everyone understands that!


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## miguksaram (Dec 27, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> We have enough problems as it is with British English and American English!


 Well if you would start practicing modern English (ie American) then we would not have this problem.  You traditionalists are such a pain. ha.haha.ha


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