# Weight Lifting and Fighting



## 7starmantis (Dec 17, 2003)

Anyone find that lifting weights impairs their ability to be completely relaxed and "soft" when fighting or playing hands? Does it make you try to force a technique using your muscle instead of letting the technique flow?

I don't necessarily think it does make you lose your "softness" but I do think it has a great tendency to do so.

7sm


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## Cruentus (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Anyone find that lifting weights impairs their ability to be completely relaxed and "soft" when fighting or playing hands? Does it make you try to force a technique using your muscle instead of letting the technique flow?
> 
> I don't necessarily think it does make you lose your "softness" but I do think it has a great tendency to do so.
> ...



Not at all. Now, if you only lift and you don't practice, then your "new muscle" won't be accustomed to being soft when playing hands. But, if you are still practicing martial arts while you lift, you won't have a problem.

btw...I am not a chinese martial artist, so you'll have to excuse me for posting. I am just posting from my own personal experience from other MA and weight lifting.

PAUL


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## Shiatsu (Dec 17, 2003)

I used to be real heavy into bodybuilding.  I now follow the routines on crossfit.com


I think it is a great routine for martial artists.


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## Jmh7331 (Dec 17, 2003)

Shiatsu - thanks for that website, I've been lifting for a long time and have been looking for a change.  I think I'll give it a try.


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## Shiatsu (Dec 17, 2003)

The workouts are short about 20-30 minutes.  They are way intense.  But they will work.  They look easy until you get going on them.:asian:


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## Phil Elmore (Dec 17, 2003)

If you're lifting weights simply to "get bigger," you may indeed make yourself slower.  The simple solution is simply to make sure that whatever you're building is _useful_ muscle.


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## Cruentus (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *If you're lifting weights simply to "get bigger," you may indeed make yourself slower.  The simple solution is simply to make sure that whatever you're building is useful muscle. *



I am going to have to disagree with you a bit on this one, Phil.

When your lifting for size, your usually doing heavy weight, with low, explosive reps. This is building your fast release muscles, rather then your slow release ones; especially the explosive reps. This can actually help you to increase speed.

Where the "slowness" comes in is when people stop practicing martial art technique and concentrate on weightlifting for size primarily. They gain "new muscle," but they haven't re-coordinated that new muscle to be able to throw punches in kicks. They haven't built the endurance up in that muscle either for the rigors of MA technique. If they haven't been stretching, then they will have gaurunteed to have lost flexability in the muscle, which also sacrifices speed.

So, My point is, you can lift for size w/o sacrificing speed. You just need to make sure that you stretch properly before and after workouts to stay flexable, and you need to diligently practice your basics while your gaining. Throw your punches, kicks, blocks, etc. on a daily basis, even when your sore. You shouldn't sacrifice speed if this is the way that you go.

I only speak from experience on this.

PAUL


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## 7starmantis (Dec 17, 2003)

Good responses, but I'm not talking about speed, but "feel" and the softness we work so hard to get in Chi Saou. I'm not sayig its impossible, but conditioning yourself to lifting, is using the tightening method of muscle training, while you need the relaxed training of muscles in Chi Saou. 

I lift, but light weight with high reps. And I do feel it affects my "feel", I have to work harder to keep it good.

7sm


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## RCastillo (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *If you're lifting weights simply to "get bigger," you may indeed make yourself slower.  The simple solution is simply to make sure that whatever you're building is useful muscle. *



Dang, and here I thought I was gonna get ripped like the Goldendragon!


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## Cruentus (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Good responses, but I'm not talking about speed, but "feel" and the softness we work so hard to get in Chi Saou. I'm not sayig its impossible, but conditioning yourself to lifting, is using the tightening method of muscle training, while you need the relaxed training of muscles in Chi Saou.
> 
> I lift, but light weight with high reps. And I do feel it affects my "feel", I have to work harder to keep it good.
> ...



question about that...how many reps? That could be the problem...

PAUL


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## TonyM. (Dec 18, 2003)

For hand held weights rather than a barbell I try to do what I call task specific weight lifting, ie. lifting jars. I find I can hold the weights in a static position and remain loose and soft. (fingers excluded) I believe this has increased my speed.


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## LAKANPOPOT (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Good responses, but I'm not talking about speed, but "feel" and the softness we work so hard to get in Chi Saou. I'm not sayig its impossible, but conditioning yourself to lifting, is using the tightening method of muscle training, while you need the relaxed training of muscles in Chi Saou.
> 
> I lift, but light weight with high reps. And I do feel it affects my "feel", I have to work harder to keep it good.
> ...



I used to feel the same way. But I was into weight training for conditioning. So I experimented on it. I realized that for me, After I lift weights whether heavy or light it won't affect my feel if I use my flow or energy drills as a cool down or last segment in my workout for the day. Or after my workout with weights I would hit the bag or do weapons to soften and maintain my flexibility. Then stretch at the end. HOpe this helps.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *question about that...how many reps? That could be the problem...
> 
> PAUL *



I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but there isn't any problem, I know the effect my lifting will have on my fighting and I acept it as par. I'm a personal Trainer so the reps are exactly proportinate to what I am wanting to achieve.
 I was just curious if anyone else had the same belief that lifting would affect your "softness" if you will.

7sm


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## mantis (May 6, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Anyone find that lifting weights impairs their ability to be completely relaxed and "soft" when fighting or playing hands? Does it make you try to force a technique using your muscle instead of letting the technique flow?
> 
> I don't necessarily think it does make you lose your "softness" but I do think it has a great tendency to do so.
> 
> 7sm


lifting tends to make you try to be in control all the time, which in turn makes you stiffer and less relaxed.  i am considered a very stiff person but i still become even more stiff when i start pumping iron

much of stretching before working out do help a lot...


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## yipman_sifu (May 6, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> The simple solution is simply to make sure that whatever you're building is _useful_ muscle.


 
Phil is 100% correct. It depends what you train. some methods of training including Chi Sao needs proper elbow postioning in the center. If you train your shoulder and Biceps. It gets difficult to perform it. The best example of a guy who trained whatever he wanted to improve in certain muscles was Bruce Lee. Jun Fan was able to get heavier and be bigger, and at some time he got heavy. He really hated this and trained to lose some muscles that he didn't need. It was said that he customized his weight training equipments as he wants, so he can imporove whatever he saw important for his JKD theory. He once said that the most important muscles are the Abnomials, and they never affects the motion in any way.


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## eyebeams (May 8, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Anyone find that lifting weights impairs their ability to be completely relaxed and "soft" when fighting or playing hands? Does it make you try to force a technique using your muscle instead of letting the technique flow?
> 
> I don't necessarily think it does make you lose your "softness" but I do think it has a great tendency to do so.
> 
> 7sm



I disagree. Lifting weights allows you to feel the muscle work against resistance and isolate it so that antagonists do not create tension. This antagonistic tension between muscles groups is what is defined as real tension. 

Plus, weight training also increases your strength. Resistance training should be a part of everyone's fitness routine, period.


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## eyebeams (May 8, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Good responses, but I'm not talking about speed, but "feel" and the softness we work so hard to get in Chi Saou. I'm not sayig its impossible, but conditioning yourself to lifting, is using the tightening method of muscle training, while you need the relaxed training of muscles in Chi Saou.
> 
> I lift, but light weight with high reps. And I do feel it affects my "feel", I have to work harder to keep it good.
> 
> 7sm



All muscles work through contraction. Muscles do not do anything but contract and release. Thus, there is not a "soft" and "hard" way a muscle works. It just works. Softness is the coordination of muscle groups to move efficiently and in sequence with minimal muscular antagonism.

You do not lose flexibility by lifting weights. You feel tightness while you lift as the blood supply to the muscle goes up, and afterwards as you recuperate, but weight training does not affect the range of motion in a body part at all.

What you should be doing is stretching between sets to improve recuperation and increase circulation. If temporary tightness persists, it comes from overtraining.


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## yipman_sifu (May 8, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I disagree. Lifting weights allows you to feel the muscle work against resistance and isolate it so that antagonists do not create tension. This antagonistic tension between muscles groups is what is defined as real tension.
> 
> Plus, weight training also increases your strength. Resistance training should be a part of everyone's fitness routine, period.


 
Eyebeams. Muscles are not a main factor in fighting. It helps in to increase your resistence. Why I should as a fighter increase my resistence?. Especially if I train Wing Chun or BJJ. These systems require borrowing techniqeus and using the opponents forces against them. That's why Bruce Lee, Wong Shun-Leung, Rickson,and Royce could defeat opponents that were stronger and larger. Weight training in some parts of the body really limits your positioning arms and may interfere in some techniques. Regarding using power against power (overcoming resistence), train as much as you can but still you can overcome resistence to a certain limit. Fighting with force against a guy like Tank Abbot can never be acheived by overcoming his resistence (he can carry a 400 pound weight). That's why wiseguys will fight with techniques and uses power in the vital areas and no muscles .


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## 7starmantis (May 8, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> I disagree. Lifting weights allows you to feel the muscle work against resistance and isolate it so that antagonists do not create tension. This antagonistic tension between muscles groups is what is defined as real tension.
> 
> Plus, weight training also increases your strength. Resistance training should be a part of everyone's fitness routine, period.


I'm speaking from a CMA fighting aspect here. Tension would most certainly not only be defined as antagonistic tension. Its just a difference in intent. Even isolated muscle force is against principle in many CMA fighting systems. Thats why weight lifting can affect your fighting, you become much less sensitive to smaller amounts of force as you are used to pushing through the force of the weights. Also, resistance training and weight lifting are two different things in my book.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> All muscles work through contraction. Muscles do not do anything but contract and release. Thus, there is not a "soft" and "hard" way a muscle works. It just works. Softness is the coordination of muscle groups to move efficiently and in sequence with minimal muscular antagonism.
> 
> You do not lose flexibility by lifting weights. You feel tightness while you lift as the blood supply to the muscle goes up, and afterwards as you recuperate, but weight training does not affect the range of motion in a body part at all.
> 
> What you should be doing is stretching between sets to improve recuperation and increase circulation. If temporary tightness persists, it comes from overtraining.


I think you have misunderstood my usage of the word "feel" or "soft". Again, I'm speaking from a CMA standpoint where "feel" and being "soft" are the ability to sense the slightest amount of force from your opponent and yield to it letting it go the way it is forcing thus attacking from a different angle so to speak. I would completely disagree with your definition of "softness" at least from a mantis fighting standpoint. Your definition still allows for the force of isolated muscles which is against principle. Muscle force is what we look to avoid (in a force against force situation at least). The antagonism you are so fond of is moot as I'm speaking of all muslce tension.

Your correct that you do not loose flexability by lifting weights, your also incorrect. Of course I didn't say anything about flexability so I'm not sure where that came from, but since we're on it, let me explain myself. I've done alot of reasearch and study into the muscles of the body and body mechanics, as I'm working towards my master's degree in physical therapy I'm forced to  To be very technical its not the lifting of weights that decreases flexability, its the building of large muslces. And to be even more technical it doesn't decrease flexability at all, but increases the size of the fulcrum if you will. So while its technically correct to say weight lifting doesn't decrease flexability for all practical purposes it does. You are correct about stretching between sets which will help to combat this quite nicely, but building muslce affects flexability like it or not. You must work harder to keep or build flexability if your also building alot of muscle. "Tightness" has nothing to do with blood supply or flow. Its a byproduct of the muslces breaking down and building up. To label it as a product of increased blood supply would be a gross understatement. 

Basically my point in this thread was to discuss this issue, I dont lift weights at all anymore, I do all bodyweight now, but I was curious as to others experiences with this issue.

7sm


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## eyebeams (May 9, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Eyebeams. Muscles are not a main factor in fighting. It helps in to increase your resistence. Why I should as a fighter increase my resistence?. Especially if I train Wing Chun or BJJ.  These systems require borrowing techniqeus and using the opponents forces against them. That's why Bruce Lee, Wong Shun-Leung, Rickson,and Royce could defeat opponents that were stronger and larger.



Muscles most certainly *are* a big deal in fighting. You don't rely on muscle to make the technique work in the first place, but muscular strength helps you apply maximum force with those techniques. Judoka used to also operate under the pretense that raw strength doesn't matter, but experience on the mat soon showed why weight classes were necessary and strength training was absolutely required.

But naturally, I rely on leverage, timing and coordination. But when I punch somebody, even though technique uses force as efficiently as possible, the muscles generate the force.



> Weight training in some parts of the body really limits your positioning arms and may interfere in some techniques. Regarding using power against power (overcoming resistence), train as much as you can but still you can overcome resistence to a certain limit. Fighting with force against a guy like Tank Abbot can never be acheived by overcoming his resistence (he can carry a 400 pound weight). That's why wiseguys will fight with techniques and uses power in the vital areas and no muscles .



When you use a technique, you are using muscles. It is physically impossible for you to make a voluntary body movement without using  your muscles. Your statement about musculature limiting positioning is incorrect. Only lack of flexibility can do that. That's why you need to stretch as part of your program.


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## eyebeams (May 9, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I'm speaking from a CMA fighting aspect here. Tension would most certainly not only be defined as antagonistic tension. Its just a difference in intent. Even isolated muscle force is against principle in many CMA fighting systems.



It is physically impossible to move without muscle contraction. Old CMA texts about other kinds of movement are based on poor anatomical knowledge from the period.



> Thats why weight lifting can affect your fighting, you become much less sensitive to smaller amounts of force as you are used to pushing through the force of the weights. Also, resistance training and weight lifting are two different things in my book.



That hasn't been my experience as a CMA practitioner.



> I think you have misunderstood my usage of the word "feel" or "soft". Again, I'm speaking from a CMA standpoint where "feel" and being "soft" are the ability to sense the slightest amount of force from your opponent and yield to it letting it go the way it is forcing thus attacking from a different angle so to speak. I would completely disagree with your definition of "softness" at least from a mantis fighting standpoint. Your definition still allows for the force of isolated muscles which is against principle. Muscle force is what we look to avoid (in a force against force situation at least). The antagonism you are so fond of is moot as I'm speaking of all muslce tension.



All movement comes from muscular contraction. When you perform a technique, you use many muscle groups in concert. When you use weights, you generally try to isolate a few muscle groups. "Softness" is just as muscular, but it is sensitive to the other person's movement and it seeks to  eliminate muscular contraction which is antagonistic to the movement.



> Your correct that you do not loose flexability by lifting weights, your also incorrect. Of course I didn't say anything about flexability so I'm not sure where that came from, but since we're on it, let me explain myself. I've done alot of reasearch and study into the muscles of the body and body mechanics, as I'm working towards my master's degree in physical therapy I'm forced to  To be very technical its not the lifting of weights that decreases flexability, its the building of large muslces. And to be even more technical it doesn't decrease flexability at all, but increases the size of the fulcrum if you will. So while its technically correct to say weight lifting doesn't decrease flexability for all practical purposes it does. You are correct about stretching between sets which will help to combat this quite nicely, but building muslce affects flexability like it or not. You must work harder to keep or build flexability if your also building alot of muscle. "Tightness" has nothing to do with blood supply or flow. Its a byproduct of the muslces breaking down and building up. To label it as a product of increased blood supply would be a gross understatement.



First of all, it isn't really necessary to lift for muscle mass per se. You will bulk up a bit, but strength training for power isn't the same as training for mass. Powerlifters, boxers and gymnasts are not the same as bodybuilders.

I suppose you could lose flexibility from extreme bulk, but not only do you need specialized training which isn't really athletic in nature, most people won't have the interest or genetic predisposition to even get this big. But the size of the muscle does not affect the mechanism of proprioception that stretching affects. The muscle gets used to its new length in any event, through the same mechanisms.

Secondly, I'm talking about tightness that occurs during lifting, which *does* come from circulation. You are correct that this is different from the tightness that occurs during recovery.



> Basically my point in this thread was to discuss this issue, I dont lift weights at all anymore, I do all bodyweight now, but I was curious as to others experiences with this issue.



In my view, the main weakness of weight training is in the recovery period and the need to return to core and stabilizing groups. If you forget the deep or small muscles you become injury prone, which is why you need a supplementary practice.
7sm[/quote]


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## 7starmantis (May 9, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> It is physically impossible to move without muscle contraction. Old CMA texts about other kinds of movement are based on poor anatomical knowledge from the period.


 OK, I have never seen texts which refering to any type of movement other than muscular, Chinese or not. However, I said nothing about movement aside from muscular movement. It seems you have your mind made up about what I am saying and so you dont read my posts anymore. Re-read, I said nothingabout moving without muscle contraction. What I *did* say was using muscular force to defend or perform any technique is against principles. You said "tension" was defined as antagonistic muscle groups working agianst each other, I simply said that definition would not be correct when refering to CMA fighting principles. Your trying to take what I say to an extreme to make me look incorrect, but the fact remains that using muscle to perform a technique is incorrect in "most" CMA systems. Sure you have to use skeletal muscle to move your body, but when we (as CMAist) refer to "muscling" or "using muscle to gain a technique" we are refering to the use of muscular force to overcomea resistance to said technqiue, or to simply make said technique work. 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> That hasn't been my experience as a CMA practitioner.


 Whats that? That weight lifting can affect your feel or that lifting weights and body exercise are different things? I dont find it odd that you dont rely on sensitivity and feel like I do, many styles and teachers do not understand it or apply it. What style of CMA do you practice? Also, I wouldn't consider Kenpo a CMA, the principles are different.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> All movement comes from muscular contraction. When you perform a technique, you use many muscle groups in concert. When you use weights, you generally try to isolate a few muscle groups. "Softness" is just as muscular, but it is sensitive to the other person's movement and it seeks to eliminate muscular contraction which is antagonistic to the movement.


 That is simply incorrect. Like I said, we obviously practice differing styles as "softness" is not what you described. Being sensitive to the other person's movement is part of it, but that is not possible if you are applying force in a direction, regardless of how "smooth" the force may be and how cooporative the force is. This is simply something we train for in my training, the ability to yield to the smallest amount of pressure and even continue their force in the same direction after you have moved from it. Its simple action vs reaction. If your pushing your hand out in front of your chest, straight out against my own hand. If I collapse my arm and roll under your arm, you have to stop applying force, start pulling your hand back in, and meet my arm again all in the time I simply roll under your pressure and continue forward. Any muscular force forward regardless of how cooporative th emuscle are, is still a mistake in a system of "feel" and "sensitivity". 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> First of all, it isn't really necessary to lift for muscle mass per se. You will bulk up a bit, but strength training for power isn't the same as training for mass. Powerlifters, boxers and gymnasts are not the same as bodybuilders.


 I agree with that, but you would know that if you had read this whole thread.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> I suppose you could lose flexibility from extreme bulk, but not only do you need specialized training which isn't really athletic in nature, most people won't have the interest or genetic predisposition to even get this big. But the size of the muscle does not affect the mechanism of proprioception that stretching affects. The muscle gets used to its new length in any event, through the same mechanisms.


 Actually, extreme is a subjective word. You do not need specialized training to increase your bulk, not at all. That is a farce. Also so is the idea that you must be genetically predisposed to building mass, simply not true at a realistic level. What exactly does proprioception have to do with this discussion? We are talking about strict actual movement, your trying to make it somethign its not. I think your confused about the affect lifting has on muscles and their affect on movement. 



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> Secondly, I'm talking about tightness that occurs during lifting, which *does* come from circulation. You are correct that this is different from the tightness that occurs during recovery.


 Well, maybe you shouldn't post things like this then :


			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> You feel tightness while you lift as the blood supply to the muscle goes up, and afterwards as you recuperate, but weight training does not affect the range of motion in a body part at all.


 Because that is what I was responding to. So, have you changed your mind on this issue, or what because you are now contradicting yourself.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> In my view, the main weakness of weight training is in the recovery period and the need to return to core and stabilizing groups. If you forget the deep or small muscles you become injury prone, which is why you need a supplementary practice.


 There is a recovery period for all muscular exercise, not just lifting. And core strength is important in all fascets of martial arts as much if not more than in weight lifting. However, it seems your martial arts training is your supplementary practice to lifting so I can understand your point of view, martial arts is not supplementary to me, just differences in our training, no big deal.

7sm


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## yipman_sifu (May 9, 2006)

I told you that we are smart fighter using opponents power against them. According what you say that you cannot execute moves without muscles is silly. These moving extension/flexing muscles are all build in normal training excrsices (no weight lifting). Muscles needed for fighting are the muscles that everyone can get. What I mean is that we don't need the big muscles of the biceps and chest to be good fighters. Regarding that we don't have power OH that's a problem:ultracool. NO, punch a guy in his throat, it is more sensitive than a 2 days baby's body. 

My point is fighting muscles comes and are essential, but the bodybuilding muscles are those which really makes the problem. You get heavier, slower, and bad positioning.


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