# The value of forms



## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

Honestly if your asking that question then you probably shouldn't be teaching forms. What if your students ask that very question what's your answer? I don't know?


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## Danny T (Oct 31, 2019)

1. There are many layers to the onion. In the early stages one only sees therefore knows only the outer layer. Learning the form and terminology. As one grows one will begin to experience and learn the other layers.
2. Form is about movement and structures (techniques). How to move from one and transition to another. There a multitude of applications of the techniques.
3. When learning to apply the movements there is the beginning point, all of the points that things can happen along the way, and the end point. Blocks aren't just blocks, punches aren't just punches, Etc. Stances are but a moment in time whereas mobility is more important.
4. If you don't know the above I feel you aren't ready to teach.


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern     you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern     you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


your correct there is no value at all in teaching forms that differ substantially from the technique, such value aqs form have is about establishing movement patterns, if the patterns are not the same pattern     you teach during techniques, eiither the form or the technique is wrong possibly both


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Danny T said:


> 1. There are many layers to the onion. In the early stages one only sees therefore knows only the outer layer. Learning the form and terminology. As one grows one will begin to experience and learn the other layers.
> 2. Form is about movement and structures (techniques). How to move from one and transition to another. There a multitude of applications of the techniques.
> 3. When learning to apply the movements there is the beginning point, all of the points that things can happen along the way, and the end point. Blocks aren't just blocks, punches aren't just punches, Etc. Stances are but a moment in time whereas mobility is more important.
> 4. If you don't know the above I feel you aren't ready to teach.


i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.


YES


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Honestly if your asking that question then you probably shouldn't be teaching forms. What if your students ask that very question what's your answer? I don't know?


i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.


You should've been figuring this stuff out before you opened a school. I'm assuming you are a black belt, didn't you think to ask this question to your instructor


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?


YES


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i see some value so i tell them what it has, but i am thinking couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?


Again these are questions that should've been asked before opening a school. I mean it's not an advanced level question I've heard that questioned asked by day 1 students so really it is something you should've had the answer to beforehand. It's also your instructor to blame for not telling you this just as part of the regular training he gave you


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

and please dont start bashing me on this thread i am wanting to understand and am open to get my mind changed, so i said my opinion and want to know others take on it.
I also understand that i have a lot of learning to go so thats why i am asking.


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


I find forms to be soothing, good for gaining focus, and obviously can help with general fitness.

As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> and please dont start bashing me on this thread i am wanting to understand and am open to get my mind changed, so i said my opinion and want to know others take on it.
> I also understand that i have a lot of learning to go so thats why i am asking.


No ones bashing on you, what I've said are my opinions on the subject you asked. As I said if it were me I'd stop teaching what I don't understand until I did. Because I'd be doing my students no favours teaching something I don't understand


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

At the end of the day you don't have to teach forms. It's your school you do what you want


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2019)

I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.

I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.
> 
> I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.


His exact words are 


falcon said:


> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is,



And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I don't know that he doesn't understand so much as reaching the point of cognative dissonance where you realize what you believed might not be true.
> 
> I see it a lot from TMA guys when transitioning to a combat sport.


Also there's a number of Mma guys who still practice forms. GSP (he has actually gone out his way to train with forms world champions) lyoto machida does forms daily, Stephen Thompson and probably a bunch of others as well.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> No ones bashing on you, what I've said are my opinions on the subject you asked. As I said if it were me I'd stop teaching what I don't understand until I did. Because I'd be doing my students no favours teaching something I don't understand


would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> At the end of the day you don't have to teach forms. It's your school you do what you want


i want to have a better understanding of them for when i teach them.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?


No because I don't do taekwondo


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I find forms to be soothing, good for gaining focus, and obviously can help with general fitness.
> 
> As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.


the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them

for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i want to have a better understanding of them for when i teach them.


Then why not just ask your instructor or start training with another instructor and get the answers there


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> No because I don't do taekwondo


do you do a martial art with forms and if so what have you seen the value to be in that art


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them
> 
> for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.


 Just because you don't enjoy them doesn't mean everyone doesn't I've met loads of people who prefer forms to sparring or partner work


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Then why not just ask your instructor or start training with another instructor and get the answers there


getting answers from several different people is always goo cause everyone has learn different things


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> do you do a martial art with forms and if so what have you seen the value to be in that art


Yes I have and honestly there's not much point going deep into it here. It's a totally different system with different ideas it wouldn't do you any good


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> getting answers from several different people is always goo cause everyone has learn different things


Yes but for teaching you need to have a set base that's constant not just change your mind every time you hear a different view. At the end of the day you need a teacher. Same way you can't learn martial arts from books you can't get a good base understanding by hearing strangers opinions. You need a teacher you can trust to guide you through it


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Just because you don't enjoy them doesn't mean everyone doesn't I've met loads of people who prefer forms to sparring or partner work


okay that probably came across wrong, i dont enjoy them that much but i do know plenty of people that do, and there is nothing wrong with doing them if you want to.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> okay that probably came across wrong, i dont enjoy them that much but i do know plenty of people that do, and there is nothing wrong with doing them if you want to.


Is it possible that since you don't like them you basically zoned out when your instructor was explaining this stuff to you and now years later you're realising you missed on valuable knowledge you now need


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yes I have and honestly there's not much point going deep into it here. It's a totally different system with different ideas it wouldn't do you any good


could you just tell me a few benefits you've seen and what art it is then i can go look into it to try to understand the few points you give me. then i can see if i can get anything to apply to tkd


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yes but for teaching you need to have a set base that's constant not just change your mind every time you hear a different view. At the end of the day you need a teacher. Same way you can't learn martial arts from books you can't get a good base understanding by hearing strangers opinions. You need a teacher you can trust to guide you through it


i agree with that statement, but i also still think its good to get others view points, cause you can then ask about them and find out for yourself about stuff cause everyone is taught different and sometimes 2 people might be taught the same thing but they both take something different from it so theirs n harm in learning from both off those people to try and get the whole picture so you can better understand. hopefully that makes since if not i can try to explain my thoughts better.


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## wab25 (Oct 31, 2019)

Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.

Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff. 

This is what the kata/forms are. They are a piece of the transmission process. To be specific, they are the first part. They teach you the notes and some scales. If used correctly, they can be the basis that you can build upon, so that you can easily play quite a few different songs and even learn new ones fairly quickly. You will have to do some extra work up front before you get to your favorite song. Or, you can skip straight to your favorite song and study it. Whichever route you take is fine. Both have pros and cons. But take the route that you enjoy.

Here is one essay on Shu Ha Ri that goes into some good detail about how the process should be done. Note that many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught. 

Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin kai


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2019)

There are a lot of different aspects to Martial Arts, a lot of different methods, different exercises, different techniques, principles etc. Forms are part of that.

I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Buka said:


> There are a lot of different aspects to Martial Arts, a lot of different methods, different exercises, different techniques, principles etc. Forms are part of that.
> 
> I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.


i train hard on them when i was training under my instructor and got decent at them but i want to understand them more and am trying to figure that out to teach my students


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.
> 
> Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.
> 
> ...


thanks for the reply i will look into that, and i that music anology makes alot of since.
you mentioned eiether way you want to learn is fine, so i wanted your opoinin on teaching the forms but not worry about having my students do them perfectly if they dont care to do them and let them learn those methods other ways and help the ones that do enjoy them get better at them


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms.


IMO, the purpose of the form is for

- teaching,
- learning, and
- recording information.

It's not used for training.



falcon said:


> couldn't you do something else and get more value from it?


A form is like a paragraph (a set of sentences) such as, "This is a book. What do I do with a book?"

There is no logical connection between book and what. Whether you may train "This is a book. What do I do with a book?" 10 times, or if you train "This is a book." 10 times and also train "What do I do with a book?" 10 times. The result is the same. That means you don't need to train the whole form. As long as you know how to break the form apart, to train drills will get you the same benefit or even better benefit.

After you have learned this form, you will need to figure the following:

- This is a pen.
- That is a book.
- This is not a book.
- ...
- What do I do with a pen?
- What do you do with a book?
- ...

Since you also need to spend time to train these drills, you just cannot spend all your training time in your original form.


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## wab25 (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> so i wanted your opoinin on teaching the forms but not worry about having my students do them perfectly if they dont care to do them


If you as the teacher don't care, then the students won't care. You need to decide what you want to do, what you want to teach. 


Buka said:


> I am of the opinion it's not so much what you do, but how you do it. If you're going to be do something in Martial Arts you should be doing it with your whole heart and soul. Don't stroll through forms, attack them with passion and much vigor.


This!!! If you are going to do forms, then do them. If you are going to do some other thing, do that. If you are doing the other, then you are wasting time by doing forms... because no one cares about them.

If you are going to do the forms, see Buka's thoughts. Learn as much as you can about them, and don't be afraid to change your thoughts and even your method of training as you learn more. Doing anything and not worrying about the outcome, is a waste of time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

Martial D said:


> As far as using them to train useable technique....not so much.


I like to

- sweep my opponent's leading leg,
- push his leading arm to jam his back arm, and
- apply a head lock on his neck

I cannot find this combo ever been recorded in any forms that exist on this planet.

That mean:

- Information that has been recorded in the forms are not what I want to train.
- What I want to train is not in the form.


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## Gweilo (Oct 31, 2019)

IMO,  forms are useful for beginners, to help teach set patterns of movement, I prefer drills, as set patterns or routines do not suit everyone, but I think the key is pressure testing on a regular basis. Imo set patterns are a way of teaching parrot fashion, every student fits neatly into place if it suits them or not, which is fine for beginners, but not for the individual,  who is creative, and thinks outside the box.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,


In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".

solo drill = partner drill without partner.
form = link a set of solo drills together.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

The interested question is "Where did your partner drills come from?"

If your partner drill is side kick, spin back fist, 

- Did you learn your combo from a form? or
- Did you learn your combo from sparring, you then create your form afterward?

This may get into chicken and egg issue here.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 31, 2019)

Its always great to do the forms or kata its part of Ma and it can apply on the street if your lost though if you didn't teach it and when your student test and do there kata they gonna be lost because they didn't learn the kata that's all gona say


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".
> 
> solo drill = partner drill without partner.
> form = link a set of solo drills together.
> ...


i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.


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## dvcochran (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.


I have been to many WT/Kukki, ITF, ATA, and independent TKD Dojangs. Never been to a Jhoon Rhee Dojang. They all teach their own style of forms. Poomsae are a fundamental part of any TKD curriculum. @jobo said it well when he said forms and individual techniques should be taught the same and should be connected.  One of the things I have enjoyed most about my TKD journey is finding out how to transfer or associate the moves in forms into real world application. Granted there are 'extremes' in the movements of some forms which are hard to see and understand. The same can be said about life and any given SD situation. Forms and one, two, three-steps or self defense drills should be seen as building blocks. Forms can be seen as connective tissue and fluid enhancers. A little cheesy, but true all the same. 
I have seen people get so wrapped up in the HOW of doing a form that they forget, or worse never learn,  the WHY of a form or even individual drills. 
A very cool thing about Korean MA's in general is that they have both Japanese and Chinese influence. They are neither super rigid like say Shotokan or super flowing like say Kung Fu, but have strong ties to each. The best of both worlds. IMHO


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Its always great to do the forms or kata its part of Ma and it can apply on the street if your lost though if you didn't teach it and when your student test and do there kata they gonna be lost because they didn't learn the kata that's all gona say


Not really....real fights you won't have the chance to go into perfect form and as for tests...if he doesn't teach it then obviously he's not going to ask it during tests


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills,


In the beginning, you may want to break up your forms into drills. If your partner drills are designed in such a way that

- You attack (such as a side kick), your opponent responds (such as a downward block),
- You then borrow your opponents blocking force, spin your body, and finish with a spin back fist,

Your students will understand how to use one move o set up next move. this is a very important part of MA training.


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Also there's a number of Mma guys who still practice forms. GSP (he has actually gone out his way to train with forms world champions) lyoto machida does forms daily, Stephen Thompson and probably a bunch of others as well.


Ya sure. Guys that also do TMA sometimes continue to do TMA after they start doing combat sports.

I drive, and I also fish. I'm not convinced that my ability to bait a hook gets me home any faster however.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.


Later on, you may want to create similar drills yourself. What if your opponent blocks your side kick into the other direction, instead of followed with a spin back fist, you may have to change into a strike to the head (because your body have to spin into the other direction). This drill may or may not exist in your form. If your form doesn't have it, you just have to create it.





​


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them
> 
> for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.


There's nothing you can do in the air by yourself that doesn't get better results done live on pads or a  partner. Especially when your muscle memory is telling you that move should flow off of another specific move and into a specific move.

Sure, combos are a thing but jab jab cross or rear lowkick to forward hook (etc) is a little different than a 30 part choreography.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

Confucius said, "If you believe in book, it's better not to have the book at all."

If you allow the form to define the boundary of your MA knowledge, it's better not to have the form at all.

A: Why didn't your style train hook punch and roundhouse kick?
B: My style believes the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot


My opinion on this is that you shouldn't have to change it alot in order for the technique to work.   I don't know what forms you train so I can't speak to that specifically.  But based on what I train, people usually train the forms incorrectly for application.  When most people train forms , the focus bring used is that of a performance.  When I train the exact same forms I train for function.  As a result my forms always look a little rough and not as clean.  I'm not winning any medals for my form presentation.   The other reason forms may seem like they are failing is that the techniques are being applied to the wrong attack or defense.  If you feel like you are trying to force it, then it usually means it's being applied incorrectly or to the wrong attack or defense.

I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it.  If you can make a video then some of us may be able to provide some insight.  Sometimes the same technique or a similar technique is found in another system and it might give you some clarity on how to best apply the technique.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> My opinion on this is that you shouldn't have to change it alot in order for the technique to work.   I don't know what forms you train so I can't speak to that specifically.  But based on what I train, people usually train the forms incorrectly for application.  When most people train forms , the focus bring used is that of a performance.  When I train the exact same forms I train for function.  As a result my forms always look a little rough and not as clean.  I'm not winning any medals for my form presentation.   The other reason forms may seem like they are failing is that the techniques are being applied to the wrong attack or defense.  If you feel like you are trying to force it, then it usually means it's being applied incorrectly or to the wrong attack or defense.
> 
> I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it.  If you can make a video then some of us may be able to provide some insight.  Sometimes the same technique or a similar technique is found in another system and it might give you some clarity on how to best apply the technique.


 i might end up doing that video you talked about but i gotta find the time for that, also even just the basics of the stances have to be changed to apply, for example the front stance you have both feet facing forwards and your shoulders square to your target, but if you where to use that stance to throw a punch you have to rotate past your target to drive your shoulder forward and pivot your back leg so its no longer facing forward. i feel that is a pretty big difference, which i believe would cause problems in a self defense situation.


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## falcon (Oct 31, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it.


there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.


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## dvcochran (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Not really....real fights you won't have the chance to go into perfect form and as for tests...if he doesn't teach it then obviously he's not going to ask it during tests


True enough. You are not going to "break down" into a deep front stance on the street. The motion and effectiveness of the technique is where the muscle memory comes into play. The stance work/foot work is for strength and structure. Where most people miss the boat is in the lack of repetition. 
We are curious creatures. It takes hundreds or thousands of hours for most people to really 'get it'. What I have seen is that the inclination lessens over time. Once someone gets a few techniques, the basics, the rest of what they learn comes much easier.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 31, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Confucius said, "If you believe in book, it's better not to have the book at all."
> 
> If you allow the form to define the boundary of your MA knowledge, it's better not to have the form at all.
> 
> ...


But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge?  I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.


That's what a form (the way a lot of MA's teach it) is supposed to be. If it's not for you, then either you're doing the form wrong, you don't understand it's application, or it's a crap form.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.


That sounds like a good idea. Take a few of the basic forms to start with, and pick them apart, make drills out of them. Try to use the techniques in sparring sessions. If they don't work, try to figure out what you're doing wrong/what you need to make it work. Once you figure that out, go back to the form and do the form with it's effective use in mind. It'll help you a lot when teaching them.

Keep in mind: this probably won't win you (or your students if it changes how you teach them) a lot of tournaments in the forms divisions. From what I've seen they don't always care about effective as much as flashy and "clean".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills,


By using your approach, this 5 kicks combo will never be created (it doesn't exist in any form).

IMO, to copy during the beginner level and to create during the advance level are both important. The question is when will you change your copy mode into your creation mode.


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## Danny T (Oct 31, 2019)

When it comes to understanding forms and the movements vs strict adherence form
here are a quotes from some of the masters:
Masutatsu Oyama – “unfortunately, many experienced karateka, having learnt many kata, mistakenly believe they have mastered them, when in truth they are merely dancing. To ensure kata are what they should be, you must completely understand the significance of the movements.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “Once a kata has been learned, it’s moves must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency. Knowledge of just the sequence of kata in karate is useless.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “To practice  kata is not to memorize an order. Find the katas that work for you, understand them, digest them.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “Hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods in kata.  Throwing techniques and pressure against joints, grabbing, & seizing are included … all these techniques should be studied referring to basic kata.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “A student well versed in even one technique will naturally see corresponding points in other techniques. A upper level punch, a lower punch, a front punch and a reverse punch are all essentially the same.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “…about three years were required to learn a single kata, and usually even an expert of considerable skill would only know three, or at most five, kata.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “The «way», who will pass it on straight and well? …The karate students practice today is not the same karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago [this book was written in 1956], and it is a long way indeed from the karate I learned in Okinawa.”

Hironori Otsuka – “It is obvious that kata must be trained and practiced sufficiently, but one must not be ‘stuck’ in them. One must take from the kata to produce actions with no limits or else it becomes useless.”

Gogen Yamaguchi – “It is not the number of kata you know, but the Substance of the kata you have acquired.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.



It is the drills that get silly. Do the forms  then drill applicable.
You need to train your body


falcon said:


> i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.


You really need to find an instructor you're teaching moves you don't understand. You also need to learn how to teach. You don't understand basic moves. You don't enjoy talking in front of a group of people. You've openly said you don't enjoy part of what you're teaching. You say you want to teach full time yet also want to go do Mma? Well who's going to be running your club while your off doing Mma? You've been running your own place for 2.5 years and still don't know how to structure a class and according to yourself your students aren't improving and you struggling to keep them motivated.

Honestly the fact you've been running a school for nearly 3 years and are coming on this forum asking these questions. It shows you need help, it's not a bad thing, running a school isn't easy and isn't for everyone. Certainly isn't for me. But I've done enough teaching and working with kids in my time to know that if the teacher isn't confident in what he's doing then they're not going to have confidence or respect for the teacher. It's human nature. You need to swallow your pride and contact your instructor or try to recruit a successful instructor to help you. Maybe someone who's retired and could be willing to come in and help.

Yes we can all sit behind our keyboards and throw out ideas. But all that comes off as is a mess. Being a good teacher isn't the same as being a good martial artist. As I've said the class structures, teaching stratergies, the basic understanding of moves and techniques that stuff should already have been worked out before you opened for business. Of course you always learn more as you go along but as long as you have a solid base for your teaching you can accommodate and honestly no offence intended you don't seem to have that sorted yet.

The best thing for you and your students is get to someone there physically to help you. Both with training and understanding moves and just general teaching and structured stuff. If you can't get anyone to help your club. Then on your off nights go be an assistant instructor at another school watch how that instructor does things. Get more experience teaching groups but not being the boss.

Also you're 23. That's not old that's not a lot of time to get that experience with kids as a teacher. When I was 23 I'd been working with kids in a educational school for 2 years and assisting classes since I was 16 but even then I'd never open my own place.


I'm not hating on you or trash talking you. My observations on you could be wrong but that's what I beliege from what I've read. Also the Mma thing juggling a fight career and your own school will certainly not be easy especially without assistants. I mean who's going to run it when your travelling for fights? What happens if you take a beating on Sunday and have to teach Monday? These are things that need thinking about. 

I mean no offence by what I'm saying but these are my opinions. You can take them on board or completely ignore me its your choice. I'm no expert school owner. I don't run a school and never have done. But I have run full classes on my own, I have designed lesson plans and outside martial arts I've worked with kids as young as 3 and old as 11 in multiple ways since I was 21 and trust me kids can easily pick up hesitation and insecurity.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2019)

I just did a Google search for Front Stance so I'm not sure if this is a front stance for the system you train.






For me stances are transitional pieces.  My belief is that the stances are done (trained) at their strongest point so that when needed, I have a good idea of where my strongest stance will be.   I use stances when punching but I've found they are more active when it comes to grappling,  Below is a picture of me defending against a take down technique.  I'm not sure if you can tell on your end, but my legs are in a similar position as the one above.  I held the stance for a split second but it was long enough for me to slow the impact, keep my balance, and to redirect his forward movement.




This is another example. Similar situation defending against a single leg take down.  In this case I escaped and landed in this position which is difficult to push back.  It looks like I'm moving forward in the picture but I was actually retreating.  I new the wall was close so I had to take a stance that would make it difficult to be pushed back.





This is a horse stance





Me punching in horse stance doesn't mean that the technique is punching in horse stance.  It just means I'm training 2 separate things at one.  Strengthening my legs and working on my punching at the same time.  Some of the stuff in my forms are for strength building and drilling and not actually the way someone should stand when fighting, Other parts of the form are actual combos.  I just had to learn which were which and once I figured that out then I knew which part of the form is for fighting, Which part is for drilling techniques, and which was for strength building.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".
> 
> solo drill = partner drill without partner.
> form = link a set of solo drills together.
> ...


excellent comparison on the video clips


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2019)

falcon said:


> there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.


One the things that helps me when I get to a point like this, is to find a sparring partner that has good control  This is important because I'm going to get hit a lot and fail a lot before I figure it out.   So I would do light sparring with my partner and I would try the technique as I think it works, and then I'll try the same technique different ways.   For example, in Jow Ga there's a funny punch which seems totally useless.  Student are taught that this technique is used to hit the head.  I could never seem to generate the speed and power to make this work.  But I kept trying.   Then one day. I threw the same technique and redirected a kick that I wasn't expecting to come in.  I still goofed on the technique, but the little bit that I got right was enough for me to grasp what just happened.  Long story short, It turns that this same technique that is always taught as a punch is excellent for hooking a front kick and throwing my opponent backwards.  

Now I no longer train the technique as punching someone in the head, I use it as redirecting kick -> throw opponent backwards.  The best thing about it, is that the it's reliable, it doesn't feel like I'm trying to force the technique, and I didn't have to change the technique.from the form.  My original problem and lack of understanding  was probably because the application of the technique was lost.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that it can't be used as a punch but I am saying that using it against a kick feels more natural and true to the form than using it as a punch.

Sometimes you just have to eat a few punches as you try to figure things out.  Just make sure your sparring partner has control because if he /she hits too hard, then you will be too afraid to take the risks that you need to take in order to learn.  Plus you don't want the hits to be so hard that you walk away with brain injury from trying to figure something out.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge?  I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.


we often see this with Wing Chun debates, where the form defines the boundary of system.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

drop bear said:


> drill applicable.


Do you want to spend your time to drill your form, or do you want to spend your time to drill your application?

IMO, drill application > drill form.

Here is an example that you "drill your application".


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 31, 2019)

You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
How very very sad.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> we often see this with Wing Chun debates, where the form defines the boundary of system.


- This is against my style's principle.
- My style doesn't do this.
- This will make my style un-pure.
- My style is perfect and complete.
- What you are talking about has nothing to do with my style.
- Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in my style.
- Why do you always have to compare my style with other styles?
- ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge?  I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.


If you have cross trained, you won't have such issue. For those who only train 1 style and also think his style is perfect and complete, his mind may not be as open as yours.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms?


If a teacher teaches his style for performance and health, when his student tries to teach that style for self-defense, this issue will appear.

Student: What should I do if my opponent attacks me as …?
Teacher: MA is for performance and health. If you care about fighting, you should get yourself a gun.
Student: ...

When a chicken talks to a duck, who's fault is this?​


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 31, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If a teacher teaches his style for performance and health, when his student tries to teach that style for self-defense, this issue will appear.



True enough. If the teacher doesn't understand the system, it cannot be passed on properly. Unfortunately, that seem to be the situation for students in this particular dojang.



> When a chicken talks to a duck, who's fault is this?​



I'd say there is plenty of fault to go around. While it is certainly understandable for a new student to not "get" that what they're being taught is incomplete or useless, it's certainly less understandable in one who is approaching the rank needed to run a school. It's a clear example of being promoted beyond ones understanding. 
The OP clearly doesn't understand even the basics of forms, and yet is running a school. Kudos to them for finally recognizing that their understanding is very incomplete. But boo to both the OP and their instructor(s) for allowing such a situation to ever arise.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.


He could have asked the question himself.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 31, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> And to me if you do a system where forms are required then that's something that should've been answered long before black belt and teaching level. Not blaming the op that's an instructor error not his own.



It certainly should be answered long before reaching whatever that system considers a teaching rank. It's an instructor error, but it's also a student error.



RTKDCMB said:


> He could have asked the question himself.



Should have. Absolutely.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
> How very very sad.



So long as they are having fun. That is the most important thing.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 1, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.
> 
> Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link; it was very informative and appreciated.  Takamura Sensei's essay on Shu-Ha-Ri was eloquent. It discussed the essence and teaching of kata with great understanding.  Your posting echoes many of the points I've made in mine re: kata, and your slant on the subject is welcome.  The essay was a little esoteric and no doubt much of this will fall on deaf ears, but, IMO, will offer some great insights to the serious martial artist.


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## Martial D (Nov 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
> How very very sad.



Why train a 'stylized version' of something if it needs to be something else to work?

Why not just train the functional method from step one?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.



Forms are not meant to be a choreographed fight, they are meant to teach various aspects of the individual postures of the form. You do forms with intent, with the thought of an opponent. If you do not do the postures of the forms with intent and you do not think of them in application with an opponent you are wasting your time and you are just doing a dance and it is worthless to your martial art.


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## Danny T (Nov 1, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Step 1 - dig around in these forums. This question has been done a lot. You will find answers that run from they are not useful at all, they are just there to copy and make look cool, all the way to the other end, that there are layers to them, with lots of stuff inside if you look. Read those viewpoints, pick the one you like, and run with it.
> 
> Step 2 - if you have not abandoned them yet, it would be good to learn how they were intended to be used. Many people have misunderstood what they are and how they were designed to be used. Look into the Shu Ha Ri pattern. Yes, its Japanese. Many of the founders of TKD studied Karate. Two of them studied with Funakoshi and one studied with Funakoshi's Sensei. By studied, I mean attained black belts, and at least in General Choi's case, he had his own Karate dojo in Japan before returning to Korea. When these guys started teaching TKD, they taught the Karate kata, then renamed them, then rearranged the movements and made their own versions. However, they kept the pattern. Shu Ha Ri is the pattern that the Japanese used to transmit knowledge and skill. The kata / forms part is step 1 of the transmission. When learning to play a musical instrument, they teach you to play the individual notes first. How to read the note, then place your fingers correctly and play the note. They then have you doing exercises playing the different notes and transitioning from one note to the other. Then you start learning scales. No, you don't actually play those finger exercises when performing at concerts... so why learn them? I can learn to play the song I want to play and skip all that stuff.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry I didn't read this post earlier. Excellent.



wab25 said:


> "...many places, many schools, and many styles now only do the copy for copy sake method... mainly because thats how they were taught."


^^^^This!!!!^^^^


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## Flying Crane (Nov 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have cross trained, you won't have such issue. For those who only train 1 style and also think his style is perfect and complete, his mind may not be as open as yours.


But even before I trained more than one system, we never saw the forms as the boundary of what we are allowed to do.  There was always more, and there was always an understanding that you need to creatively apply what you know.  What is in the forms can be applied directly, or modified, or mixed around for application, or used as inspiration for something else, or whatever.  But we never saw it as a boundary.  We had loads of material that wasn’t even in the forms.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're running a dojang and you don't understand the purpose of forms? You don't get that the moves are stylized for forms, and modified in use? You think that those movements "don't work" in sparring because they're not done in the exact stylized manner as in forms?
> How very very sad.


i wouldn't say they dont work, but it has to be changed in order to use it. and you end up using different muscles groups when doing things against a resisting opponent and different foot place meant then you normally would for the form so im just trying to ask if theirs better ways to do things then the traditional method.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Also i know everyone is trying to help me, but i asked a question and their is some people that have given me some great advice and help. their is also plenty of people that started saying i didn't know anything and i shouldn't be teaching a class, well i will admit i have a lot to learn but forms is also not a defining part of martial arts their is alot more to it then forms so just because i my not understand one aspect of the art doesn't mean i have no idea what i am doing, i came here to try and learn more so if you are not going to give me advice, and just say that i dont know what im doing then please dont comment. Now that doesn't mean i dont want constructive criticism, some people have told me that i dont understand it at all and told me how to best go about learning more, like contacting my instructor or studying it with a sparring partner and other things like that and that is greatly appreciated. what i am trying to get at if you are going to tell me that i suck at something at least give me some advice so i can be better.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i wouldn't say they dont work, but it has to be changed in order to use it. and you end up using different muscles groups when doing things against a resisting opponent and different foot place meant then you normally would for the form so im just trying to ask if theirs better ways to do things then the traditional method.


 Some things will change but it shouldn't be so different that you are no longer using the movement found in the Kata.  For example,  I should be able to take a sparring video and identify concepts, movements, and structures that are found in the form.  When you actually do an application, it should feel familiar to something you have done in a form.  Even if you stumble upon a technique.  That technique should have a familiar feel to it.  It shouldn't feel foreign.  For example, squaring to lift someone should feel familiar to a horse stance. A punch should feel familiar to a punch that is done in the form..  If you are changing things so much that it loses that familiarity.  Then there's a chance you are using the technique at all.  You end up teaching one technique and applying a totally different technique and thinking that the two are the same.  That is just going to lead to confusion.


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## Headhunter (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> Also i know everyone is trying to help me, but i asked a question and their is some people that have given me some great advice and help. their is also plenty of people that started saying i didn't know anything and i shouldn't be teaching a class, well i will admit i have a lot to learn but forms is also not a defining part of martial arts their is alot more to it then forms so just because i my not understand one aspect of the art doesn't mean i have no idea what i am doing, i came here to try and learn more so if you are not going to give me advice, and just say that i dont know what im doing then please dont comment. Now that doesn't mean i dont want constructive criticism, some people have told me that i dont understand it at all and told me how to best go about learning more, like contacting my instructor or studying it with a sparring partner and other things like that and that is greatly appreciated. what i am trying to get at if you are going to tell me that i suck at something at least give me some advice so i can be better.


Yes there is more to martial arts than forms but if you are teaching forms then it is your job to understand them and understand the moves. If you don't know then your students sure as hell don't know and then when they start to teach then their students won't know then it's a downward spiral of no understanding and eventually no one in your lineage will have a clue what it's all about. Honestly at black belt you should know this. Simple as that. Of course black belts don't have every single answer but they sure as hell should be able to tell you the purpose of a fundamental part of the system they're teaching. No ones saying you have to be perfect but your 23 and you've been running a school for a fair bit of time and you by your own admission can't structure a class and motivate your students and your students aren't improving and you don't understand a big part of the system and probably the hardest part of the system since forms take a lot of practice and memory to perform well so if your teaching your students but you're not teaching them the purpose behind them. Then it's no wonder they're not motivated and they're not improving. It's like trying to write a story without knowing the definition of the words you're writing. If you don't understand something then don't teach it simple as that otherwise your students will suffer and will end up with high ranks but end up very sloppy and if they perform in front of an instructor who does understand then they'll be ripped to shreds and they won't thank you for that. Maybe your brilliant at sparring techniques so teach that but you shouldn't be teaching something you don't know. Maybe this comes across as harsh but honestly it has to be said because there's to much poor martial arts being taught in the traditional systems because of lack of understanding


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## jobo (Nov 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yes there is more to martial arts than forms but if you are teaching forms then it is your job to understand them and understand the moves. If you don't know then your students sure as hell don't know and then when they start to teach then their students won't know then it's a downward spiral of no understanding and eventually no one in your lineage will have a clue what it's all about. Honestly at black belt you should know this. Simple as that. Of course black belts don't have every single answer but they sure as hell should be able to tell you the purpose of a fundamental part of the system they're teaching. No ones saying you have to be perfect but your 23 and you've been running a school for a fair bit of time and you by your own admission can't structure a class and motivate your students and your students aren't improving and you don't understand a big part of the system and probably the hardest part of the system since forms take a lot of practice and memory to perform well so if your teaching your students but you're not teaching them the purpose behind them. Then it's no wonder they're not motivated and they're not improving. It's like trying to write a story without knowing the definition of the words you're writing. If you don't understand something then don't teach it simple as that otherwise your students will suffer and will end up with high ranks but end up very sloppy and if they perform in front of an instructor who does understand then they'll be ripped to shreds and they won't thank you for that. Maybe your brilliant at sparring techniques so teach that but you shouldn't be teaching something you don't know. Maybe this comes across as harsh but honestly it has to be said because there's to much poor martial arts being taught in the traditional systems because of lack of understanding


I think your being e exceptional harsh with someone who has opened a simple dialogue  to help his own understanding. It's almost like your in a very bad mood and taking your frustrations out on others.

I mean really tone it down a bit or just ignore him, it's really not deserving of that diatribe above, your so cross you've decided to do away with paragraphs, that's always a bad sign


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Yes there is more to martial arts than forms but if you are teaching forms then it is your job to understand them and understand the moves. If you don't know then your students sure as hell don't know and then when they start to teach then their students won't know then it's a downward spiral of no understanding and eventually no one in your lineage will have a clue what it's all about. Honestly at black belt you should know this. Simple as that. Of course black belts don't have every single answer but they sure as hell should be able to tell you the purpose of a fundamental part of the system they're teaching. No ones saying you have to be perfect but your 23 and you've been running a school for a fair bit of time and you by your own admission can't structure a class and motivate your students and your students aren't improving and you don't understand a big part of the system and probably the hardest part of the system since forms take a lot of practice and memory to perform well so if your teaching your students but you're not teaching them the purpose behind them. Then it's no wonder they're not motivated and they're not improving. It's like trying to write a story without knowing the definition of the words you're writing. If you don't understand something then don't teach it simple as that otherwise your students will suffer and will end up with high ranks but end up very sloppy and if they perform in front of an instructor who does understand then they'll be ripped to shreds and they won't thank you for that. Maybe your brilliant at sparring techniques so teach that but you shouldn't be teaching something you don't know. Maybe this comes across as harsh but honestly it has to be said because there's to much poor martial arts being taught in the traditional systems because of lack of understanding


i do know some of the reasons for forms and i teach that. also for the structuring class i am trying to find new ways of doing it cause everyone does it differently and i can admit that my way wasn't the best so i am trying to find new ways to do it. I also have 2 different forums going for different topics so, can we try to keep this one about forms, and the other one about class structure.


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## Headhunter (Nov 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> It certainly should be answered long before reaching whatever that system considers a teaching rank. It's an instructor error, but it's also a student error.
> 
> 
> 
> Should have. Absolutely.


I don't disagree but I know some clubs are trained in the stupid old fashioned way of never asking questions. But yes before opening a school it's something that 100% should've been found out one way or another and the fact that it wasn't found out and the op has run a school for nearly 3 years without knowing this stuff so essentially has just been teaching movements with no understanding of them...well that's sloppy


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## Headhunter (Nov 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> I think your being e exceptional harsh with someone who has opened a simple dialogue  to help his own understanding. It's almost like your in a very bad mood and taking your frustrations out on others.
> 
> I mean really tone it down a bit or just ignore him, it's really not deserving of that diatribe above, your so cross you've decided to do away with paragraphs, that's always a bad sign


Lol any of this coming from you is hilarious.


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## Danny T (Nov 1, 2019)

jobo said:


> I think your being e exceptional harsh with someone who has opened a simple dialogue  to help his own understanding. It's almost like your in a very bad mood and taking your frustrations out on others.
> 
> I mean really tone it down a bit or just ignore him, it's really not deserving of that diatribe above, your so cross you've decided to do away with paragraphs, that's always a bad sign


Interesting...
I actually like seeing you write in such a manner. I also suggest you heed this as well when having conversations with others.


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## Buka (Nov 1, 2019)

Whatchu' guys talkin' bout? We be the "friendly" Martial Arts community.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Buka said:


> Whatchu' guys talkin' bout? We be the "friendly" Martial Arts community.


 <- This is how we say hello.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i wouldn't say they dont work, but it has to be changed in order to use it.


Most people may understand "copy". Some people may not understand "modify".

My MA teacher had lived in my house for quite some time (I can't get any personal training better than that). One day when he saw me train the short form (drill) that he taught me. He asked me what I was doing. I told him that I just trained the short form that he taught me.

He then said, "Form is for teaching and learning only. It's not for training. This 'diagonal strike' solo form that I taught you can be used for 'single leg' and also be used for 'front cut'.

If you use it for

- single leg, your left hand should be below your right arm to catch your opponent's leading leg (use hand to get leg).
- front cut, your right leg should be hook back and up your opponent's leading leg (use leg to get leg).

Since the 'diagonal strike' form can map into different applications (such as single leg , front cut, break apart a strong grip, …), when you train, you should not just train the "abstract principle". You should map it into "concrete" application."

After that day, I understood the true meaning of "self training". I'm not suppose to just copy. I need to modify to meet my need.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i do know some of the reasons for forms and i teach that. also for the structuring class i am trying to find new ways of doing it cause everyone does it differently and i can admit that my way wasn't the best so i am trying to find new ways to do it. I also have 2 different forums going for different topics so, can we try to keep this one about forms, and the other one about class structure.


Are you still training? And by that I mean training with an instructor. A lot of questions you're asking here could be answered if you were still training under someone, and there's a lot to learn when you start teaching (new ways of looking at things), that an instructor can help guide you with.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am trying to find new ways of doing it.


I agree and support you 100% here.

In the following clip, you can

- grab on your opponent's shirt.
- pull out a dagger from your boots.
- stab your dagger into your opponent's chest.

Did I learn this from my teacher? No! I figured this out all by myself.






SC form 1 - 4 have only arm move and no leg move. SC form 5 - 6 have only leg move and no arm move. It was designed this way to meet the beginner's need (easy to learn). If you still train these forms as shown in the clip when you are 80 years old, you have treated yourself as beginner all your life.

This issue may not exist in other MA styles. But since we don't know the purpose of the original form creator, IMO, both "modification" and "change" are necessary.

SC form 1 - 4 (only arm move, no leg move).






SC form 5 - 6 (only leg move, no arm move).


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 1, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Why train a 'stylized version' of something if it needs to be something else to work?
> Why not just train the functional method from step one?



The movement taught in forms _*is*_ functional. For the specific version of the attack it's taught to block, or the specific opening it's taught to take advantage of. For variations of that attack or opening, the attack or block in the form has to be modified. 
If you throw a punch at my sternum, the inside middle block, as it's taught in forms, is an excellent counter. If you aim at my nose, I'd better modify it.



falcon said:


> i wouldn't say they dont work, but it has to be changed in order to use it. and you end up using different muscles groups when doing things against a resisting opponent and different foot place meant then you normally would for the form so im just trying to ask if theirs better ways to do things then the traditional method.



What I see here is that not only do you not understand forms, you're also doing the movements within the forms wrong. The inside middle block I mentioned above is a fine example. If you're punching to my chest, I can counter by doing the movement exactly as its done in forms. Exactly. Honestly, I expect a 5th or 4th geup student to have a better understanding of this than you're showing.


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## Headhunter (Nov 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> The movement taught in forms _*is*_ functional. For the specific version of the attack it's taught to block, or the specific opening it's taught to take advantage of. For variations of that attack or opening, the attack or block in the form has to be modified.
> If you throw a punch at my sternum, the inside middle block, as it's taught in forms, is an excellent counter. If you aim at my nose, I'd better modify it.
> 
> 
> ...


Pretty much my opinion as well. Again not all of it is the ops fault. It's his instructors fault for promoting someone to black belt without them having the proper understanding some of that rank needs to teach, but yes op also needs to accept some responsiblity for not asking enough questions during his time training as I'm guessing by his posts he doesn't train under anyone anymore


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## Headhunter (Nov 1, 2019)

Okay so op asked me what my systems forms teach so here's that answer from me.

Each form in American kenpo has a specific theme and each form signposts on to the next one so they're not all just a bunch of randomly thrown together moves there's always some connection to the others.

Short form 1 teaches you how to retreat from your opponent and use the basic blocks, the theme of that form is rotation for the rotation of your hips used when blocking.

Long form 1 is the same base as short 1 but after each block a reverse punch is thrown so that adds in counter attacks and the main theme is back up mass which is your forward bow stance on the punch.

Short form 2 teaches you to step into an attack and how to have a different timing on your movement and the need for checks due to the fact your stepping into the attack. This is also the first form to go on a different angle base. The first 2 forms worked on a plus symbol. (If you looked at me doing th form from above you'd see moving in a plus shape going to the basic clock angles of 6,3,9 and 12 o clock. But this form you move on the X angle and introduces a change in height by dropping under an attack.

Long form 2 shows you to use your front hand as an attack and how to move to different angles. It also teaches something new by being the first form to punch before you block and introduces elbows.

Short form 3 is a new theme all together, the previous were all movement all of them from now on are self defence technique forms where the form is made uo of techniques from the syllabus but all put together and have to use transitions to do them at different angles. This forms them is dead attacks (grabs)

Long form 3 adds to this by doing the techniques on both sides (short form 3 you only did it one side) this teaches you to adapt to both sides of the technique and it a,so teaches isolation of wrist grab escapes. This forms theme is semi live attacks.

Long form 4s theme is live attacks (punches and kicks) and it teaches you to work on different height levels by dropping to a knee simulating you've been knocked down.

Long forms 5 theme is takedown techniques and being struck from an unnatural start point when your not expecting it.

I don't have as much info on the last 2 as those are newer forms for me. But now I'm no form master, it's not my area of expertise but I've been able to tell you all of this just off the top of my head without having to read anything, not because I was specifically trained at one point but because over all my years I was given these little bits of infortmation as I go


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2019)

tuff crowd in here today.  
@falcon while the message may be hard to hear @Headhunter means well.  i dont think his intention is to bash you and say you suck.  please understand that we are all at different levels and have different experiences.  i think his point is actually hitting the real problem here tho.  your a young guy without a teacher.  the questions your asking are not easy to find answers to.  without a teacher who has a lot of experience and knowledge your just going to be wandering around in the dark.  however even if you did have a teacher it would take years to understand and gain an appreciation for them.  it takes time.  most people who say they are useless and have no value have not put the time in to gain that appreciation.  i understand people like @Martial D who say it would be faster to just learn to fight, and that would be true. it is faster and truth be told forms will not teach you to fight, but there is also value in forms that cannot be found else where. 
i would say that someone like yourself may have been training for 3 to 6 years if they were a 1st degree black belt.  Thats really a short amount of time when it comes to form study.  to give contrast i studied, and i mean really studied, one form excluding all the other forms and only did this one (seisan)  for 20 years straight. and i did go through the shu, ha, ri  thing where what i do now does not look like where i started.  it wasnt directly about fighting it was more about becoming a craftsman.  as an analogy furniture can be made in a factory quick and for a low cost.  its fast and effective. but the guy on the assembly line is not a craftsman.  the craftsman does wood work not because he needs a chair but because he wants to become something more than a factory worker.  he has an intimate relationship with the wood and the tools.  his depth of knowledge is great and in the end he can create furniture that people marvel at and value exactly because of his skill and care. thats why people do kata.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Pretty much my opinion as well. Again not all of it is the ops fault. It's his instructors fault for promoting someone to black belt without them having the proper understanding some of that rank needs to teach, but yes op also needs to accept some responsiblity for not asking enough questions during his time training as I'm guessing by his posts he doesn't train under anyone anymore


I've seen in some schools where detailed understanding isn't required.  You can name 3 applications for a technique then that would be enough to be considered being knowledgeable.  There isn't a push to really understand how to use it outside of a demo form.

Sort of like the video of me discussing one of the Jow Ga techniques.  "We are always taught to do A when an attackers jabs,  but what if the attacker doesn't jab.  Now what?"  Those what if scenarios require that the practitioner go beyond what was shown in class.  It requires true understanding of a technique.   Unfortunately many schools weren't going down that path.  Too many just wanted to look cool doing a form and a demo and that's it.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> What I see here is that not only do you not understand forms, you're also doing the movements within the forms wrong. The inside middle block I mentioned above is a fine example. If you're punching to my chest, I can counter by doing the movement exactly as its done in forms. Exactly. Honestly, I expect a 5th or 4th geup student to have a better understanding of this than you're showing.


I understand a middle block and that that motion can be done to block an opponents punch or thigs like that but that is a basic part of a form has you learn more forms you end up doing complicaited moves in the forms and it never really goes that way in a fight.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Okay so op asked me what my systems forms teach so here's that answer from me.
> 
> Each form in American kenpo has a specific theme and each form signposts on to the next one so they're not all just a bunch of randomly thrown together moves there's always some connection to the others.
> 
> ...


i understand that headhunter means well and i will admit that i have gotten frustrated with him, he has at least give me some advice on what to do i feel his messages are repetitive but at least there is advice in it. that message about criticism wasnt completely directed to him; but it still was partially; there are some people here that only say something negative and that is it.


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## mrt2 (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?


Do you teach ITF TKD?


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Okay so op asked me what my systems forms teach so here's that answer from me.
> 
> Each form in American kenpo has a specific theme and each form signposts on to the next one so they're not all just a bunch of randomly thrown together moves there's always some connection to the others.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info i will read it and see if anything applies to my art, to see if it can help me better understand things.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Do you teach ITF TKD?


WTF Tkd


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## mrt2 (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> WTF Tkd


OK.  If you taught ITF, I would have given you specific examples of our forms that I think are good teaching tools, but since you teach a different set of forms, not much I can say.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

also people wanted to know if i train under someone. I am under my original teacher but he is a ways a way so i dont get much time to really go to his dojang to train much.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> OK.  If you taught ITF, I would have given you specific examples of our forms that I think are good teaching tools, but since you teach a different set of forms, not much I can say.


okay well thanks for being willing. i have also been wanting to know about itf sparri g rules for there tournaments for a while but just haven't looked into it much, so would you be willing to point me to a site that has that info? i know its kinda off topic but its something i have been wanting to look into.


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## mrt2 (Nov 1, 2019)

falcon said:


> okay well thanks for being willing. i have also been wanting to know about itf sparri g rules for there tournaments for a while but just haven't looked into it much, so would you be willing to point me to a site that has that info? i know its kinda off topic but its something i have been wanting to look into.


Don't know.  At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules.  Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.


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## falcon (Nov 1, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Don't know.  At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules.  Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.


thats interesting never heard of that before, so you do the Olympic rules cause that would be WTF?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> complicaited moves in the forms and it never really goes that way in a fight.


Sounds like you are trying to fight using the techniques in the same order that they are in the form.  Advance forms will put multiple techniques together int he form but it doesn't mean you are supposed to used all of them in that order in application.  You have to learn the entry and exit points of your techniques and understand where a technique actually begins and where it ends.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> WTF Tkd



Well there's your problem. There's no such thing. The WT (they changed their name...) isn't a style or system. It's a sports governing body. There are no WT schools. The WT has no curriculum. They award no rank. Go look at your (excessively high) rank certificate. Notice that it isn't from the WT.
So, basically, you're lacking even a very basic understanding. You don't even know what you're teaching.


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well there's your problem. There's no such thing. The WT (they changed their name...) isn't a style or system. It's a sports governing body. There are no WT schools. The WT has no curriculum. They award no rank. Go look at your (excessively high) rank certificate. Notice that it isn't from the WT.
> So, basically, you're lacking even a very basic understanding. You don't even know what you're teaching.


i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms


Dude...relax you said you teach wtf taekwondo so dirty dog pointed out that wtf taekwondo isn't a system..it's a sport governing body. You're getting very defensive when being pointed out your mistakes. I don't know about that stuff since im not a TKD guy so I'll leave all that to guys who know more than me. But if you are under the assumption that you are teaching wtf taekwondo when there's no such system. That would explain a lot about your lack of understanding the forms. Instead of getting defensive maybe you should look into why you've got the wrong info instead of shouting at the world.

@Dirty Dog literally has just helped you out by giving you this information, you should be thanking him for that. You've now learned something you didn't know before hand. That's a good thing. Stop acting like everyone's against you.

I know for myself I'm not a guy who's going to filter my opinion. I say what I feel because I feel life's to short to not give real opinions. If I think someone sucks (not saying you suck just doing an example) I'll say they suck. If someone thinks I think I'd prefer them to say I suck. It's just easier than all this filter crap we have to deal with these days where you have to pretend everything's great and can't give a real opinion. If someone's good tell them they're good, if they're bad tell them they're bad. you made a mistake you were called out on it. Now you know your mistakes you can learn from it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms


Just an FYI, since I've seen this argument go on like 50 times on here-his comment wasn't about you saying WTF instead of WT. It's that the system you train in is under the kukkiwon, and the WT has a sparring ruleset/competition ruleset that gels (intentionally) with kukkiwon (I think it's considered the "official" ruleset", but I'm sure Mark will correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not the style. 

And the issue is 
A) that you don't know the name of your style (or refer to it as something else if you do), and 
B) That might indicate that you think all of the style is encompassed by the competition aspect of the style.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Just an FYI, since I've seen this argument go on like 50 times on here-his comment wasn't about you saying WTF instead of WT. It's that the system you train in is under the kukkiwon, and the WT has a sparring ruleset/competition ruleset that gels (intentionally) with kukkiwon (I think it's considered the "official" ruleset", but I'm sure Mark will correct me if I'm wrong), but it is not the style.
> 
> And the issue is
> A) that you don't know the name of your style (or refer to it as something else if you do), and
> B) That might indicate that you think all of the style is encompassed by the competition aspect of the style.


There. Hopefully I saved us of two pages of back and forth on this issue...but not bloody likely.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms


the problem here, apart from some of the people you are conversing with just being habitually rude. is that you have wandered into a topic that is quite contentious to start off with.

there are people here who have spent a life time learning and perfecting forms, and your question is taken as questioning the validity of that time. to answer your question honestly would require them to accept that they have wasted decades of their life perfecting something that is of little use to the actual art of fighting. be honest would you get a little cross if it were you ?


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There. Hopefully I saved us of two pages of back and forth on this issue...but not bloody likely.


its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.


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## Danny T (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i messed up on a name, so i dont know anything, if your not going to help me out thenjust stop. i am tired of people telling me i dont know what im doing, so if you not going to help then just stop. if you want to help me then you are welcome, i teach wt sparri g rules i know im not a wt school but i was just mentioni g that i teach there rules for sparring and forms


falcon, this can be a rough crowd but the old guys here have a lot of knowledge...A Lot Of Knowledge. 
Thing is most and I include myself in this...most are here to discuss things but not to actually 'teach'.
If you would like to discuss the merits of a particular application of a movement that's one thing but expecting someone to teach you what the many application potentials are...that's not going to go over well.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> the problem here, apart from some of the people you are conversing with just being habitually rude. is that you have wandered into a topic that is quite contentious to start off with.
> 
> there are people here who have spent a life time learning and perfecting forms, and your question is taken as questioning the validity of that time. to answer your question honestly would require them to accept that they have wasted decades of their life perfecting something that is of little use to the actual art of fighting. be honest would you get a little cross if it were you ?


Lol first you calling anyone habitually rude is just hilarious,

Second that is absolutely not what anyone has said. What's been said is how the op doesn't seem to have the experience and knowledge neccesary for a teacher. He hasn't necessarily questioned the validity of forms he's said he doesn't understand them and now according to DD he's said he teaches a system that's not actually a system.thats what's being said and what the op is upset about is people are questioning his knowledge of what he is teaching his students. 

Nothing to do with the pointless argument you always like to engage in


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.


I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to
> 
> - sweep my opponent's leading leg,
> - push his leading arm to jam his back arm, and
> ...



Both statements are untrue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.


Also keep in mind some context here. Most of the people on here have been training for longer than you've been alive. Personally I've been training for ~20 years, which is less than a lot of the people on this forum. And I still don't feel that it's enough for me to be a head instructor somewhere.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> its just frustating cause people keep telling me i have no idea what i am doing. i personally think the exact names and things like that dont matter and just cause i might be wrong on a few things doesnt mean i dont know anything, but for some reason people keep saying that. i have openly admitted that i have a lot to learn, but everyone has a lot to learn even if you have done martial arts your entire life you will still have a lot more to learn, so lets move past the criticism stage and lets just have people share there knwoledge so we can all learn something.


Lol DD literally just shared his knowledge and you just jumped down his throat for doing so and yes the names very much matter. Because if you tell your students a vague definition of what they're learning and they go to another school who does use the proper names and they give the vague description then they're going to be not taken seriously and could result in them failing belt tests from other instructors because of this. That's my thing in this. The students. You can do what you wish for your own training but for your students you do need to tell them the exact names. I don't care much about the exact details either but when I'm teaching I make sure to tell those details for that very reason


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Lol first you calling anyone habitually rude is just hilarious,
> 
> Second that is absolutely not what anyone has said. What's been said is how the op doesn't seem to have the experience and knowledge neccesary for a teacher. He hasn't necessarily questioned the validity of forms he's said he doesn't understand them and now according to DD he's said he teaches a system that's not actually a system.thats what's being said and what the op is upset about is people are questioning his knowledge of what he is teaching his students.
> 
> Nothing to do with the pointless argument you always like to engage in


he has question the value of the forms, that was the first few  posts that you may not have taken the time to read such was your haist to pour scorn and derision on his head for asking a question

the reaction of some unnamed people has been to suggest this questioning arises out of ignorance of the forms. where as the fact he hasn't invested countless hours in learning t5hem, means he has clarity as to there usefulness or otherwise


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Danny T said:


> falcon, this can be a rough crowd but the old guys here have a lot of knowledge...A Lot Of Knowledge.
> Thing is most and I include myself in this...most are here to discuss things but not to actually 'teach'.
> If you would like to discuss the merits of a particular application of a movement that's one thing but expecting someone to teach you what the many application potentials are...that's not going to go over well.


i am not really asking for someone to teach me i am asking some of the benenifits people have found and see if i can learn from the discussion, and i have learn some, and some of it i dont really agree with and other things i do. but telling so.eone the know notbing is pointless in my opinion. i am just try to get a discussion going about it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,



My opinion is that forms ('kata' to me) are the heart and soul of karate, and for me, there is no karate without kata.



> i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form.



Two options, in my opinion.

The first is that your forms are not good forms.  This could be because they simply were not well designed, or it could be that you were not taught them well, or you didn't learn them well.  I don't know your forms or your style, so I cannot assert that to be true.  It's just an option.

The second is that you haven't learned enough about your forms to know that they "don't work."  Lots of tools don't work if you don't know how to use them.  I mean that not as a personal insult or attack.  There is a great deal I do not know about techniques, which then of course means I cannot "make them work."  Instead of criticizing the tool, however, I criticize myself, since I see by the evidence of my own senses that the tools *do* work, when a master applies them.  It's not the tool.  It's the person (mis)using it.



> In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?



I have many answers to that question.

The first is there is little reason to change the technique if it is learned correctly.  It will work if it works at all (see my comments above).

The second is that it's not hard to adapt a technique that has become locked into muscle memory if the need arises.  The principles are what's important in self-defense, and most forms (kata to me) have an almost unlimited ability to be flexible.  Most of us who practice kata see this expressed as various types of bunkai (practical application).  A block becomes a grab, a push becomes a strike, and so on.  Same movement, same body mechanics, same principles, just applied differently.



> I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.



There are many schools with do not use forms or kata.  I believe that many of them teach good self-defense techniques and produce well-rounded martial artists.  That does not change my opinion on the value of forms or kata.

To paraphrase a comment someone else made here - what good is a book if you cannot eat it?  Well, if it teaches you to hunt or fish or grow crops, it might be a lot of good.  Just because you can't immediately put it in your mouth doesn't mean it can't sustain you.


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

when i get to my computer i will right out what i see the benifits of forms are, and some of the things i dont like about them. i am going to do this to try to help get some discusion going about it going, and hopefully i dont end up regretting that, i apoligize if i sound rude in some of my comments. it wont be until late tonight that i can make that post though.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.


thats a fair point, but is surely dependent on what he is learning as to if it benefits his students or not


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> thats a fair point, but is surely dependent on what he is learning as to if it benefits his students or not


If he's learning the system of kukkiwon tkd, and he's teaching kukkiwon tkd, I would hope that what he's learning would be applicable to his students. If not, there's a lot of bigger issues.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> If he's learning the system of kukkiwon tkd, and he's teaching kukkiwon tkd, I would hope that what he's learning would be applicable to his students. If not, there's a lot of bigger issues.


but he is teaching disinterested kids, what expressly are you thinking he may learn that has a direct and tangible benefit to his students ?

may be if he attended and behaved like a disinterested kid he may pick up some pointers other than that i'm at a loss what your thinking of ! clearly learning forms are of no tangible benefit to him or the kids in question


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> would you be able to tell me some of the values that you see from the forms?



A form or kata offers the basics (we call those kihon) in a format that shows an actual application, which can be called bunkai (practical application).  Along with the movement of the basic exercise, it teaches stance, balance, timing, distancing, speed, breathing, and body mechanics.  Some of this can be learned by repetition of the exercise itself of course, but not as easily, in my opinion.

One of the ways in which we practice kata is with the use of a partner (uke) who provides the supposed attacks which provoke the movements of the kata.  In other words, if a kata calls for a step forward with the left foot, left middle body block, and straight right punch, the uke will step and throw a right punch, then block the incoming punch on their left.

This answers the often-asked question of "what's it for" when a student is learning kata.  They can easily see what it's for. There is an incoming attack.  They step up, block, and counter.

After many repetitions, the skilled uke may vary the attack.  Harder, faster, with different timing and focus points.  The block will have to be solid, the counter punch must be fast and thrown true.  The person doing the kata must be grounded with a solid stance, good body mechanics, even their breathing must be on point.  They learn to detect the incoming attack in time to perform the kata, building up speed, threat detection, and so on.  The advanced uke and tori (person doing the kata) begin to improvise.  Perhaps the incoming punch is thrown with the left instead of the right.  Maybe at the head instead of the middle body.  And so on.  They work the kata together - never abandoning the format of the kata, but being flexible about what it means.  They can in time discover new principles and ways of seeing and responding to attack, and this is advanced bunkai.

I can teach a middle body block and counter punch in about 30 seconds to a student.  I can correct the position of their block, their fist formation, their stance, and so on.  If I'm a good teacher, I will see the weaknesses in their application of the basic movement.  However, performing kata will do much to bring the student's work into alignment by itself, as bad balance will lead to stumbling, weak blocks won't stop an uke's punch, and so on.

A side effect of kata is that when done with a partner, it puts an end to the flinch reflex and the fear of being hit - because the student will get hit.  It's no fun.  Blocking seems more important when being hit, especially after the twentieth time in a row.  A basic exercise by itself doesn't provide that.


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I mentioned this earlier in but it likely got lost-the biggest thing to me is that you're not still getting consistent training. You know you have a lot to learn, which is fine, but if you're teaching than there's an onus on you to go out of you way and make sure you continue learning.


i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.


And how long have you been doing that for training every now and then? Because if that's how you've been doing all your training all your life it's no wonder your missing stuff being explained


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i dont train a lot directly under someone. i am still kinda training under my original teacher, but its very limited training, i train bjj and that has help me understand some moves in forms. i have seen that some of them could actually be a throw, but at the same time from training bjj i have also seen that you cant practice a throw unless you have a partner to throw. i have been wanting to train around some other tkd schools around me, but finding the time and money is very difficult so i am trying to figure that stuff out.


Also I train bjj and they do solo drills as well for warm ups. Shrimping, bridges to mount, triangles, butt scoots and forward and backward rolls. So yes not forms but still a similar idea.

Chuck Norris has even said one of the Gracies or machados (can't remember which been a while since I saw the video)  taught him a jiu jitsu kata so he could still practice his jiu jitsu even now he's got a lot of injuries and can't roll as well


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.


if you've genuinely training daily for 5 years and still don't have the understanding of forms then that is your instructors fault. Which raises a lot of other questions. You need to find a guy who does the same style as you and get him to watch you do your stuff and see what he thinks. Because honestly if you're genuinely training daily for 5 years and don't have that basic knowledge then something isn't right


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Also I train bjj and they do solo drills as well for warm ups. Shrimping, bridges to mount, triangles, butt scoots and forward and backward rolls. So yes not forms but still a similar idea.
> 
> Chuck Norris has even said one of the Gracies or machados (can't remember which been a while since I saw the video)  taught him a jiu jitsu kata so he could still practice his jiu jitsu even now he's got a lot of injuries and can't roll as well


 i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> if you've genuinely training daily for 5 years and still don't have the understanding of forms then that is your instructors fault. Which raises a lot of other questions. You need to find a guy who does the same style as you and get him to watch you do your stuff and see what he thinks. Because honestly if you're genuinely training daily for 5 years and don't have that basic knowledge then something isn't right


but no one can understand forms as they don't make any sense at all. the best you will get if you ask for an explanation is a load of meaningless waffle , like Billl posted above. i know coz ive asked many times on here and elsewhere


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> but he is teaching disinterested kids, what expressly are you thinking he may learn that has a direct and tangible benefit to his students ?
> 
> may be if he attended and behaved like a disinterested kid he may pick up some pointers other than that i'm at a loss what your thinking of ! clearly learning forms are of no tangible benefit to him or the kids in question


I thought the issue was that he's not sure about the full usefulness of forms/parts of the system, not that the kids aren't interested in learning it. If I misread the issue then you're right my advice wouldn't really be helpful in getting kids engaged. Working at a summer/winter camp or daycare camp and seeing how the other supervisors/counselors interact with tbe kids to get them involved may help more.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.


No it isn't. It's exactly the same thing.....it's the same as me doing a shrimp, then a bridge to mount then a triangle. All a form is is a bunch of moves put together for exercise purposes. For example a first move of a from step back block punch, then transition to 6 o clock and do an inside block then a roundhouse kick, then turn to 3 do a downward block and an elbow.

That's not all one big choreography it's different drills put together. The first drill is step back block punch that's one drill

The second is inside block roundhouse kick.


Honestly I'm sorry but this is first week stuff I'm explaining here. Yes different styles but if I didn't know that I wouldn't have gotten my first belt. You need to find a new teacher if this wasn't explained to you


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> but no one can understand forms as they don't make any sense at all. the best you will get if you ask for an explanation is a load of meaningless waffle , like Billl posted above. i know coz ive asked many times on here and elsewhere


Just because YOU can't understand it doesn't mean everyone can't. That's just your own problem.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i have never heard of the form for bjj before, but for your first point i would agree you do that but its only one or to moves not 20 plus so i would consider that differnet then a form.


The first form i learned is just turning and punching forward in a bunch of different directions. I believe they teach the same form in kukkiwon tkd. Not all that much different than shrimping across a floor.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I thought the issue was that he's not sure about the full usefulness of forms/parts of the system, not that the kids aren't interested in learning it. If I misread the issue then you're right my advice wouldn't really be helpful in getting kids engaged. Working at a summer/winter camp or daycare camp and seeing how the other supervisors/counselors interact with tbe kids to get them involved may help more.


that was his other thread about disinterested kids and engagement in the learning process


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The first form i learned is just turning and punching forward in a bunch of different directions. I believe they teach the same form in kukkiwon tkd. Not all that much different than shrimping across a floor.


Exactly what I said. 

In kenpo the first form is literally step back inward block x2
Step back outward x2 
Step back upward x2
Step back downward x2


I mean you don't need to be a brain surgeon to figure out what that forms teaching


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> No it isn't. It's exactly the same thing.....it's the same as me doing a shrimp, then a bridge to mount then a triangle. All a form is is a bunch of moves put together for exercise purposes. For example a first move of a from step back block punch, then transition to 6 o clock and do an inside block then a roundhouse kick, then turn to 3 do a downward block and an elbow.
> 
> That's not all one big choreography it's different drills put together. The first drill is step back block punch that's one drill
> 
> ...


i understand that basic stuff, but has you learn more advance forms you start doing really complicated movements, and its more of the advance part of forms that is confusing.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> i understand that basic stuff, but has you learn more advance forms you start doing really complicated movements, and its more of the advance part of forms that is confusing.


Not from my experience it isn't. Far from it if anything the higher ones are easier to learn and as by that level I have a better understanding of the system so I know how things work better


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Exactly what I said.
> 
> In kenpo the first form is literally step back inward block x2
> Step back outward x2
> ...


I stand corrected-I guess that's the first form I learned. I forgot about that one. But with turns instead of step back.


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Just because YOU can't understand it doesn't mean everyone can't. That's just your own problem.


i've asked for it to be explained to me, if people can't proffer a succinct explanation, with out getting metaphysical, then its fair to say they don't understand them either and are just pretending they do to save face.

would you like to try ?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> that was his other thread about disinterested kids and engagement in the learning process


Ah. I think I only skimmed that one.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I stand corrected-I guess that's the first form I learned. I forgot about that one. But with turns instead of step back.


Yeah no  there's turns but I couldn't be bothered to write all that out as well but yeah the basic movements are step back block x2 turn to a different angle then step back block x2


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> i've asked for it to be explained to me, if people can't proffer a succinct explanation, then its fair to say they don't understand them either and are just pretending they do to save face.
> 
> would you like to try ?


Not really as I find talking to you as useful as talking to a brick wall


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Not from my experience it isn't. Far from it if anything the higher ones are easier to learn and as by that level I have a better understanding of the system so I know how things work better


learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me, its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me,



I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.  



> its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.



I suspect you lack a qualified instructor.  Whenever I feel that a particular move has no value or practical application, I ask my instructor.  In more than 12 years, he has not failed to provide instant and painful tuition that convinces me I simply did not see it.

More basic - just because you don't see the value, does not mean the value is not there.  It doesn't mean the value *is* there either; but without a competent instructor, you can't extrapolate the value on your own.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> learning the movements to a form is incredibly easy to me, its just some of the movements dont make any since to me, cause when i see different people say you doing this or that, i dont think that it would actually work how the from has you do it.


And that's why you ask questions....really are going in circles here


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 2, 2019)

falcon said:


> only since i open my school, most of my trianing is going to the dojang everyday for about 5 years i am terrible with time frames so i just know it was around 5 years.



"About" 5 years of training and you're running a school? How is that even possible? I mean, KKW TKD schools are often known for ridiculously rapid promotion without any real understanding of basic material (let alone advanced...).  But if we assume you got your 1st Dan in a year, it'd be another year to 2nd, 2 more to 3rd, 3 more to 4th. That's 7 years, and 4th Dan is considered the minimum teaching rank by the KKW. So with "about" 5 years of training, you're violating the already extremely minimal standards of the KKW as regards either time in grade or rank required for teaching.
For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> "About" 5 years of training and you're running a school? How is that even possible? I mean, KKW TKD schools are often known for ridiculously rapid promotion without any real understanding of basic material (let alone advanced...).  But if we assume you got your 1st Dan in a year, it'd be another year to 2nd, 2 more to 3rd, 3 more to 4th. That's 7 years, and 4th Dan is considered the minimum teaching rank by the KKW. So with "about" 5 years of training, you're violating the already extremely minimal standards of the KKW as regards either time in grade or rank required for teaching.
> For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.


He's second Dan I think according to what I remember reading....could be wrong


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## jobo (Nov 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if something has value it should be reasonably obvious what value it has


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> For reference, in our Moo Duk Kwan system, you'd likely be around 4th geup.



So it takes about 5 years in your system for 6 geups, so a little under a year a geup? And I'm guessing the geups take longer as you get closer to 1 dan, so in t would take about 10-12 years on average for first dan? Is that the teaching rank for your style?

And is that speed assuming someone who's training daily, or would someone going daily progress more quickly through the ranks?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2019)

I'm noticing that when these types of threads come up, it tends to be kukkiwon tkders who cant figure out the meanings behind their forms. 

I don't know if that means that these tkd forms have less inherent value than forms from other systems, less obvious value, or if the way that they have less rigorous standards for instructors leading to subpar instructors. But I feel like one of those is happening, that people from other styles/kwans can't relate to.

Or it might just be an odd coincidence. But I doubt it.


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## geezer (Nov 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> if something has value it should be *reasonably obvious* what value it has



_Nope._ Or, maybe. But people can be incredibly obtuse about the obvious. In general, not just in the martial arts. Me included.  

Now I understand the basic function of absolutely all the moves in our escrima forms. But that's 'cause I made the forms up _myself_  ....as a way to solo train fundamental drills and principles. On the other hand, there's also some stuff in those forms that needed fixing. Might say that they're a work in progress.

Funny thing is after working with them for many years, I start finding out _stuff I that I didn't even know_ when I put the forms together. I figure that's because they are put together by combining stuff I learned from people with really deep knowledge and experience. 

So I guess I'm still uncovering new levels and aspects of the stuff they showed me and that _I thought I understood_ decades ago. Imagine that.

Now I'm going off to practice...


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

@falcon forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people,  all with their own beliefs,  based on sometimes decades of hard work, sometimes blind faith, loyalty, and experience,  some will tell you, you are wrong, stupid, misguided,  this is a problem you will have to solve, and quickly, for your own, and your students sake, all I can offer is the following advise, don't let the comments you read stop your training, we are all basically students of movement, if you get stuck, or question what you are doing, slow down, breath and keep moving, keep moving your whole body, if you get it wrong, you will learn, if you get it right you will learn, sometimes the best way is not to plan, just do, be natural,  it's Ok to not to get it right, or question what you have been taught, this is evolution,  all you need to do is understand the essence of what you have been taught, and mould that to you. Opinions are just that, someone's opinion, you will get to know what's right or wrong for you, if you continue in your current art, or if a new one is needed in order for you to progress to where you need to be. Don't be disheartened by what you read here, in some cases you are reading personal beliefs, forged over time.


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## falcon (Nov 2, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @falcon forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people,  all with their own beliefs,  based on sometimes decades of hard work, sometimes blind faith, loyalty, and experience,  some will tell you, you are wrong, stupid, misguided,  this is a problem you will have to solve, and quickly, for your own, and your students sake, all I can offer is the following advise, don't let the comments you read stop your training, we are all basically students of movement, if you get stuck, or question what you are doing, slow down, breath and keep moving, keep moving your whole body, if you get it wrong, you will learn, if you get it right you will learn, sometimes the best way is not to plan, just do, be natural,  it's Ok to not to get it right, or question what you have been taught, this is evolution,  all you need to do is understand the essence of what you have been taught, and mould that to you. Opinions are just that, someone's opinion, you will get to know what's right or wrong for you, if you continue in your current art, or if a new one is needed in order for you to progress to where you need to be. Don't be disheartened by what you read here, in some cases you are reading personal beliefs, forged over time.


thanks for the advice.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> forums are great for discussion, but you will find vastly experienced people,  all with their own beliefs,


The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.

Does the following discussion make any sense?

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: You should ask your Sensei.
C: You should ask your coach.
D: You should ask your teacher.
E: How long have you trained?
F: Who is your teacher?
G: ...

Sometime I believe the thread discussion do not focus on the topic. IMO, the normal discussion should be like:

A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
B: Form can be used for ...
C: I like form because ...
D: I don't like form because ...
E: ...

Your thought?​


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does the following discussion make any sense?
> 
> A: What's your opinion about the value of form?
> B: You should ask your Sensei.
> ...



I think sometimes people try to gain context in order to more fully understand the questions being asked.  Often, a question will baffle or confound a person trying to answer unless they are able to understand more about the person asking it.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.
> 
> Does the following discussion make any sense?
> 
> ...


Well yeah it does make sense because guy comes on here asking what the value of forms is. That's a question a teacher should be answering not a bunch of strangers online.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think sometimes people try to gain context in order to more fully understand the questions being asked.  Often, a question will baffle or confound a person trying to answer unless they are able to understand more about the person asking it.


But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in. 

For example, if OP asks the following question. 

What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.


----------



## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.
> 
> For example, if OP asks the following question.
> 
> What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.


Jeez we know the threads been derailed when someone comes on telling us how we should be answering a thread


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Jeez we know the threads been derailed when someone comes on telling us how we should be answering a thread


Should we discussion the message instead of attacking the messenger?

"Your thought?" is not "telling us".

In another forum, I found out that people like to attack new members. I stated my observation in my post. Suddenly, every old members (include the moderator) started to attack me. I left that forum quietly and will never go back.

IMO, it's nice to keep this forum to be as friendly as possible.


----------



## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The purpose that OP starts a thread is not because he wants to argue against everybody. He just wants to collect different opinions.
> 
> Does the following discussion make any sense?
> 
> ...


Ok A it's Ok for beginners
B of course
C too many cooks spoil the broth
D too many cooks...........
E 38 years
F many , attended many seminars inclubbing matsaaki hatsumi,  Fred Adams,  han jae ji,  bong soo han, Jong bae rim, Merrill jung,  vladimir Vasiliev, Mikhail Ryabko. 

Second questions
A it's Ok for beginners
B basic understanding of movement
C i think drills are better
D i think drills are better
E....movement is key, it's Ok to say, i will do a then b, but if you avoid a and b, then stand still for c, what's the point, move, move, then move again, when your windows opens finish.


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

There was lots more instructors in Hapkido,I could have mentioned, including living and training in Korea for 6 months.


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

Forms have a basic value, in which it leads students to a routine of movejent, but it's basic,  it's down to the individual to adapt these to themselves, and understand the essence or principles of those movements, these are chapter 1 and 2, progression is an understanding of these forms, and adapting them. But to question these forms, Imo is a good thing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> But to question these forms, Imo is a good thing.


Agree with you 100% there.

In the following forms (at 0.12, and 0.17), you use your palm to attack your opponent's groin. When you do that, your opponent will always hit on your head. You start to wonder the value of this move.

One of my long fist brothers told me this move can be used to grab a handful of sand and throw at your opponent's face. Did he learn this application from his long fist teacher (also my long fist teacher)? No! He figured this out all by himself.

At 0.12.






At 0.17.


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

I love classical Chinese arts, but from the two videos you have just posted, Imo,  the practioner is so ingrossed with the style of movement, what protects the knee on the lead leg.


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should we discussion the message instead of attacking the messenger?
> 
> "Your thought?" is not "telling us".
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone has been unfriendly, to me being unfriendly is calling someone rude names, using bad language towards them and using aggressive and threatening language or being condescending and rude. 

All I see on this thread is people pointing out things that he can and should improve on as an instructor. Maybe they haven't all warm and sunshine but this is a martial art forum for people who train martial arts so they should be able to take a bit of criticism. No one one has come and said

"Wtf how do you not know that idiot? You obviously are an idiot who obviously is a fake black belt. Get lost a hole"

No ones said that everyone while maybe not being all warm and happy and smiley have given advice and been inquisitive. I'm guessing if there was any genuine rudeness or bashing then the mod with the creepy spider photo would be on here telling us all to shut up


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> I don't think anyone has been unfriendly, to me being unfriendly is calling someone rude names, using bad language towards them and using aggressive and threatening language or being condescending and rude.
> 
> All I see on this thread is people pointing out things that he can and should improve on as an instructor. Maybe they haven't all warm and sunshine but this is a martial art forum for people who train martial arts so they should be able to take a bit of criticism. No one one has come and said
> 
> ...


The only problem is, for the pot to call the kettle black, tkd uses a form of training called Kyorugi la stylised form for competition, that comes away from traditional forms to make opponents more willing to fight, making the sport version more exciting to watch, so much form forms.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.
> 
> For example, if OP asks the following question.
> 
> What do you think the application of this Taiji move is? Whether the OP has 50 years of Taiji training, or 5 years of Taiji training will have nothing to do with this discussion subject.



Nothing exists in a vacuum, so context is important.


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## Gweilo (Nov 2, 2019)

@Headhunter your opinion of this persons credentials should not matter, a martial artist, will learn more about their art, teaching, than studying, just because you are more advanced, or have a different opinion , or an opinion  about another practioner, it is not the done thing to call them an idiot, I know your passionate about ma, but you should keep those comments to yourself


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## Headhunter (Nov 2, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> @Headhunter your opinion of this persons credentials should not matter, a martial artist, will learn more about their art, teaching, than studying, just because you are more advanced, or have a different opinion , or an opinion  about another practioner, it is not the done thing to call them an idiot, I know your passionate about ma, but you should keep those comments to yourself


Wtf.....I'm trying to work out if you're serious here....I haven't called anyone an idiot. Please quote me where I have because I believe I know where your mind is going and if I'm right I have to say thank you because you just made me laugh a lot


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 2, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> He's second Dan I think according to what I remember reading....could be wrong



So he or she isn't actually qualified to teach, under KKW standards.



kempodisciple said:


> So it takes about 5 years in your system for 6 geups, so a little under a year a geup? And I'm guessing the geups take longer as you get closer to 1 dan, so in t would take about 10-12 years on average for first dan? Is that the teaching rank for your style?
> 
> And is that speed assuming someone who's training daily, or would someone going daily progress more quickly through the ranks?



A person who attends 5 classes a week and puts in the effort can earn 1st Dan in about 8 years. But promotion is _*absolutely never*_ based on how long they've been a student. A student who doesn't understand the material will never reach 1st Dan. Ever. It is always absolutely based on understanding and ability. I earned my Moo Duk Kwan 1st Dan in two years. But I already held KKW and ITF ranks.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I love classical Chinese arts, but from the two videos you have just posted, Imo,  the practioner is so ingrossed with the style of movement, what protects the knee on the lead leg.


Please provide more detail. Which move? At which point (timestamp) of that form?

May be I should start a new thread so I can collect different opinions about that form (one of my favor discussion subjects).

That form was assigned as the 1st form for students to learn in *Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1934).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

The *Central Guoshu Institute* (simplified Chinese: 中央国术馆; traditional Chinese: 中央國術館; pinyin: _zhōng yāng guó shù guǎn_; literally: 'Central Martial Arts Academy'); was established in Nanjing by the Kuomintang government of the Republic of China in 1928 for the propagation of Chinese martial arts


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## dvcochran (Nov 2, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most people may understand "copy". Some people may not understand "modify".
> 
> My MA teacher had lived in my house for quite some time (I can't get any personal training better than that). One day when he saw me train the short form (drill) that he taught me. He asked me what I was doing. I told him that I just trained the short form that he taught me.
> 
> ...


I say this all the time; we have to learn the why and not just the how of a form or concept.


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## Gweilo (Nov 3, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Wtf.....I'm trying to work out if you're serious here....I haven't called anyone an idiot. Please quote me where I have because I believe I know where your mind is going and if I'm right I have to say thank you because you just made me laugh a lot



I apologise,  It was late here, and I did not read the post fully, sorry, but I'm glad it made you smile.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But it's the subject that we are all interested in and want to participate the discussion. It's not the OP's MA background that we are interested in.



I believe you are incorrect.  If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.

Likewise, when a person asks a series of questions here that _appear_ to be coming from someone who is maybe 14 or 15 years old, with limited training and a rather one-sided understanding of what martial arts actually is, it may add context to know more about them.

Context matters.  If you do not understand that, I don't think I can add much more to this conversation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.


A: Why it is hot in December and cold in July?
B: In a year, there will always be a month that is colder (or hotter) than another month no matter where you may live on this planet.

If a discussion (such as the value of forms) become "general MA discussion", the OP's MA background will no longer be important.


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## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Don't know.  At our school, I think we fight using WTF rules.  Kind of schizophrenic, ITF forms and curriculum with WTF sparring rules, but that is how we do it.


I found this very interesting. There are 24 ITF forms if memory serves? What are the other parts of your curriculum (one-steps, etc...)? So you never punch to the face in sparring? I think this is the first time I have heard of a school mixing ITF & WT(F) together in class. Cool.


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## mrt2 (Nov 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I found this very interesting. There are 24 ITF forms if memory serves? What are the other parts of your curriculum (one-steps, etc...)? So you never punch to the face in sparring? I think this is the first time I have heard of a school mixing ITF & WTF together in class. Cool.


Yes, 24 ITF forms, but our school also teaches/practices Koryo, which is a WTF form, I believe.  I hope someday when I make 1st Dan, I can use this fact to persuade my teacher to add Bassai to our curriculum, as he has told me it was part of his father's curriculum years ago.  Bassai was my favorite form I learned back in my old Tang Soo Do days, and my understanding is some TKD schools still teach it.

As far as the rest of our curriculum, there are 13 basics, 20 one steps, 20 sparring combinations, and something called linear forms, which is not a standard TKD thing, but something our school does.  They are forms that focus more on kicking, and unlike the standard forms, with these forms, you start in one place and mostly move forward so you don't wind up in the same place you started.


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## jobo (Nov 3, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I believe you are incorrect.  If a person posts and asks why it is hot in December and cold in July, knowing that he lives in Australia gives context to his question.
> 
> Likewise, when a person asks a series of questions here that _appear_ to be coming from someone who is maybe 14 or 15 years old, with limited training and a rather one-sided understanding of what martial arts actually is, it may add context to know more about them.
> 
> Context matters.  If you do not understand that, I don't think I can add much more to this conversation.


 don't wish to pick, but more than half the globe is hot in december, you cant narrow it down to australia and most of australia isn't cold in july


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2019)

Since we are talking about the form, there are good form design and there are bad form design.

- A good form design will make you to feel good after training.
- A bad form design will make you to feel tired after training.

For example, you can repeat this form 20 times non-stop and you may still not feel tired at all. 

What's your opinion about this form design?


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## dvcochran (Nov 3, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Yes, 24 ITF forms, but our school also teaches/practices Koryo, which is a WTF form, I believe.  I hope someday when I make 1st Dan, I can use this fact to persuade my teacher to add Bassai to our curriculum, as he has told me it was part of his father's curriculum years ago.  Bassai was my favorite form I learned back in my old Tang Soo Do days, and my understanding is some TKD schools still teach it.
> 
> As far as the rest of our curriculum, there are 13 basics, 20 one steps, 20 sparring combinations, and something called linear forms, which is not a standard TKD thing, but something our school does.  They are forms that focus more on kicking, and unlike the standard forms, with these forms, you start in one place and mostly move forward so you don't wind up in the same place you started.


Bassia (Batsai) is a form seen in several styles. I know Shotokan has a version. It appears to be very similar regardless of style. There are the normal mechanical/style differences but from what I remember they are essentially the same. 
I am not familiar with the linear form you mention. There are three Naihanchi froms which are linear but very few kicks in them, and you end at/near the starting point. 
We teach Bassai as the main testing form for 1st Dan BB. Koryo is next in order.
Google Geumgang poomsae. I think you may find it surprisingly interesting. Very, very different in movement and principle.


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## Balrog (Nov 5, 2019)

falcon said:


> i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,


Discipline.  Focus. Concentration.  Self-improvement.  And a host of other things.


> i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form.  In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?


Then you are doing them incorrectly in either the form or in other applications, such as sparring.  A side kick is a side kick.  Pivot, chamber, extend, rechamber, recover.  Now, did you do that in a form or in a sparring match?  It should be the same both ways.


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## mrt2 (Nov 5, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Bassia (Batsai) is a form seen in several styles. I know Shotokan has a version. It appears to be very similar regardless of style. There are the normal mechanical/style differences but from what I remember they are essentially the same.
> I am not familiar with the linear form you mention. There are three Naihanchi froms which are linear but very few kicks in them, and you end at/near the starting point.
> We teach Bassai as the main testing form for 1st Dan BB. Koryo is next in order.
> Google Geumgang poomsae. I think you may find it surprisingly interesting. Very, very different in movement and principle.


Bassai was the highest form I learned in Tang Soo Do, and I would like to practice it again, maybe someday teach it to our students.  I think it would slot nicely in between Hwa Rang and Chung Moo at the high brown belt level.  Plus, in our system, people generally are at high brown anywhere between 5 to 9 months before testing for probationary black belt, so there is enough time to learn two forms in that time.

I am aware our linears are not a standard part of TKD.  I think our head instructor, or maybe his father invented them.  The explanation I got was, these are more focused on blocks, punches, and kicks from a fighting stance and unlike our standard forms, they don't all start with a block.  Some start with a punch, others with a kick.


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## jobo (Nov 5, 2019)

Balrog said:


> Discipline.  Focus. Concentration.  Self-improvement.  And a host of other things.
> 
> Then you are doing them incorrectly in either the form or in other applications, such as sparring.  A side kick is a side kick.  Pivot, chamber, extend, rechamber, recover.  Now, did you do that in a form or in a sparring match?  It should be the same both ways.


maybe it has those benefits, but probably its doesnt ? at least no more than say doing a jigsaw.

but the context of the question was, do they improve fighting efficiency over art that dont practice forms and the answer to that is  a decisive no


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## geezer (Nov 5, 2019)

Balrog said:


> Discipline.  Focus. Concentration.  Self-improvement...



Not for me. In fact when I'm alone, trying to catch up on work and getting really bored, I often sneak off to run through a form or two, ...then I  dawdle away the time and end up even more behind. 

That's _not_ giving me discipline, concentration or helping me improve myself where I need it most at the moment.

But, I _do_ enjoy it. And getting off the computer once in a while isn't such a terrible thing.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 6, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm sure you think that, but I'm not sure it's true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This brings to mind a quote Ed Parker was fond of saying:  "To hear is to misunderstand, to see is to be deceived, but to _feel _is to _know.
_
By the way, falcon, you have been used and abused here, kind of like the new guy in prison - not to say you didn't invite it by being a little naïve and clueless in some of your posts.  Perhaps you are a masochist, or just egging us on for fun.  If not, you're getting great training in absorbing attacks.  Now, work on your counters.  Maybe some can be found in your forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Balrog said:


> Discipline.  Focus. Concentration.  Self-improvement.  And a host of other things.


I may add in "health" into your list.

My doctor suggests me to stop my 3 miles running (I may hurt my knees one day). I'm trying to start my form training again to replace my running.

If you drill your form 20 times non-stop, you will get similar result as "long distance running".

Non-stop is the keyword. Don't take any break between your 20 reps.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I may add in "health" into your list.
> 
> My doctor suggests me to stop my 3 miles running (I may hurt my knees one day). I'm trying to start my form training again to replace my running.
> 
> ...


Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest.  Not if they are being done right.  Nobody.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest.  Not if they are being done right.  Nobody.


I was thinking the same thing. KMA and JMA forms have too many anaerobic motions to keep doing like a marathon runner.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest.  Not if they are being done right.  Nobody.





dvcochran said:


> I was thinking the same thing. KMA and JMA forms have too many anaerobic motions to keep doing like a marathon runner.



None of them?


----------



## Buka (Nov 6, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> This brings to mind a quote Ed Parker was fond of saying:  "To hear is to misunderstand, to see is to be deceived, but to _feel _is to _know.
> _
> By the way, falcon, you have been used and abused here, kind of like the new guy in prison - not to say you didn't invite it by being a little naïve and clueless in some of your posts.  Perhaps you are a masochist, or just egging us on for fun.  If not, you're getting great training in absorbing attacks.  Now, work on your counters.  Maybe some can be found in your forms.



Tell you a funny story about that..... 

I was training with Ed one day when he said to me, "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe." I thought that pretty cool, probably because he said it, but didn't really give it much thought, if any.

Less than a week later I was at the range, training to qualify to become a cop. I already had had a permit to carry and was familiar with both firearms and the qualification process.

On lunch break the Range Master, a grizzled old man, summoned me back to the range on the loudspeaker. So back I went. This is an indoor range I'm speaking off.

When I enter the lights are off. There's a small, ceiling spotlight on the backstop, where there's two blue balloons affixed about six feet high, about ten feet apart.

A third of the way down range another ceiling spot light is shining on a low podium, where the Range master is adjusting this big old meat knife that is sticking into the podium, something that looked like you would use to behead a steer.

At the front of the range, another spotlight is shining on a small chair and a spotting scope.

He fiddles with the knife, then sits in the chair checking it with the scope, then adjusts the chair, making quite the production out of it.

He says to me, "I'm going to shoot, one shot, hit that knife, split the bullet in two and hit both those balloons." I'm thinking to myself, "sure you are, un huh."

He sits in the chair, looks, nods, gets up and straddles the chair, his back now to the balloons. He puts on ear protection and picks up one of those old lady make-up mirrors. They look like a big lollipop. He holds it in front of him with one hand and rests the pistol over his shoulder with the other. Now I'm thinking, "this poor old man is going to seriously embarrass himself."

He makes several adjustments, checks the scope again, then the knife, blah blah, blah. 
Then takes a big inhale and lets it out slowly, then shoots...........BLAM, both balloons are obliterated! 

My eyes open as wide as saucers. He says, "Go back to lunch, rookie." Back I go. And when I get there, I say to the other dozen or so veteran cops "Holy crap, I just saw the greatest shot I've ever seen! Gene just split a bullet on a -" And all the guys break up laughing.
THEY tell me, go back there right now, rook, he just summoned you just before you got here.

So back I go. Two more balloons are up. He hands me the pistol and says "Shoot the backstop, anywhere in the middle of those balloons.

I do. They both explode. He asks, "Are all Karate guys as blind dumb as you, or are you special? The bullet shatters, the fragments break the balloons. Don't believe everything you see, rookie. And don't believe everything someone tells you. Investigate."

An right at that very second I hear Ed Parker's voice in my head..."to hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived."

I'm a little slow on the uptake at times. But I started to listen to teachers in a different way after that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2019)

Buka said:


> Tell you a funny story about that.....
> 
> I was training with Ed one day when he said to me, "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe." I thought that pretty cool, probably because he said it, but didn't really give it much thought, if any.
> 
> ...


That's an awesome story. Love it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> None of them?


None of them.  Go into Members In motion forum and take a look at the couple forms I posted a while ago.  Ours are long and grueling.  20 times without break?  Nope.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Nobody could do my forms 20 times without rest.  Not if they are being done right.  Nobody.


It may have to do with the amount of kicks in the form.

I can do this kind of form 20 times non-stop.











I can't do this kind of form 20 times non-stop.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It may have to do with the amount of kicks in the form.
> 
> I can do this kind of form 20 times non-stop.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your forms can be done 20 Times without rest.  Mine cannot.

Our most basic and least complex form, Lok Lik Kuen, has no kicks in most of its versions.  I practice four versions, one of which contains kicks with the punches.  The form takes something like 2 1/2 - 3 minutes to practice from start to finish, depending on skill and conditioning.  When I practice all four versions, I stop to catch my breath between sets.  It takes me about a half hour to do all four of them. I cannot imagine doing that series of four, done five times over to make twenty.  I further cannot imagine doing it all without pause.  

Now to imagine our more complex forms like Tiet Lien Kuen or Chuit Yap Bo Kuen, done 20 times without pause: not a chance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Perhaps your forms can be done 20 Times without rest.  Mine cannot.


Do you have any of your form clip to share? I'm interested to see the way that your form is designed.

IMO, for the amount of energy that one needs to spend,

leading arm punch < back arm punch < kick < jumping kick

I can drill this move 1,000 times non-stop within 45 minutes. I'm pretty sure that if I don't mind to get exhausted, I can drill this 2,000 times non-stop within 1 and 1/2 hour.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you have any of your form clip to share? I'm interested to see the way that your form is designed.
> 
> IMO, for the amount of energy that one needs to spend,
> 
> ...


Here are the specific forms I mentioned.  I posted these in the Members in Motion section several months ago:

Lok Lik Kuen
White Crane beginner form, Lok Lik Kuen

Chuit Yap Bo Kuen
White Crane Chuit Yap Bo Kuen, beginner level form

Tiet Lien Kuen
White Crane beginner set, Tiet Lien Kuen

These are all part of our beginner level curriculum.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can drill this move 1,000 times non-stop within 45 minutes. I'm pretty sure that if I don't mind to get exhausted, I can drill this 2,000 times non-stop within 1 and 1/2 hour.


This example is quite short.  I agree that this one could be done 20 times without resting in between.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> This example is quite short.  I agree that this one could be done 20 times without resting in between.



I use to do Piquan 100 times a day just for training xingyiquan; along with zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan, and hengquan

Once did piquan for about a quarter to a half mile, not sure how many I did. I was going from one office to another through an elevated tunnel that was empty.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 7, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> This brings to mind a quote Ed Parker was fond of saying: "To hear is to misunderstand, to see is to be deceived, but to _feel _is to _know._





Buka said:


> I was training with Ed one day when he said to me, "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be deceived, to feel is to believe."



I guess he said this to everyone he trained, albeit different versions.  As one who has been on the receiving end of one of his demos, I can agree that to feel is definitely to know. 

You got to call him "Ed"?  My new partner, upon meeting him, greeted, "Hi, Ed." and Parker's eyes kind of narrowed and got wide at the same time, although there was a hint of a smile.  He was an ex sheriff's deputy, so maybe it was a cop thing.

.


----------



## Buka (Nov 7, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> I guess he said this to everyone he trained, albeit different versions.  As one who has been on the receiving end of one of his demos, I can agree that to feel is definitely to know.
> 
> You got to call him "Ed"?  My new partner, upon meeting him, greeted, "Hi, Ed." and Parker's eyes kind of narrowed and got wide at the same time, although there was a hint of a smile.  He was an ex sheriff's deputy, so maybe it was a cop thing.
> 
> .



Not at first, obviously. He used to come to New England a lot, used to stay with a friend of mine. Ed was always my go to guy when I had a question on Martial Ethics or history. Regardless of what that question might be, his advice always turned out to be spot on.

I addressed him as Master Parker in front of students, or people I didn't know, just as I would for anyone else of that ilk as a matter of Martial respect and protocol. But if we were hanging, we were hanging. Jokes and Italian food, which he loved both of, were always a big thing. If you had a good joke, he was the best audience you could have, he had an infectious laugh.

I have a short letter he wrote to my mother, telling her what a nice man Elvis Presley was. Mom was an old women at the time who loved Elvis like a school girl would, she cherished that letter until the day she died. He didn't have to take the time to do that, but he did.

Master Parker was a really nice man.






I had just shown him how an Italian ties his shoe. I'm Italian, so it's okay


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Here are the specific forms I mentioned.  I posted these in the Members in Motion section several months ago:
> 
> Lok Lik Kuen
> White Crane beginner form, Lok Lik Kuen
> ...


Thanks for sharing your forms. I like your moves that in some striking, your front arm, body, back arm all form a perfect straight line. This kind of training doesn't exist in all MA styles.

When I was young, I was the only student in my MA class that I tried to put 100% power into all my punch and kick. By doing that, I always felt tired even just after 1 form training. When I get older, I no longer think about my power. I just let my body to "flow".

Yesterday I gave myself a test. I did the following form 20 times non-stop. When I did my form, my mind was like "long distance running". After 20 reps, my breathing was still normal and calm.






I can never do the following form 20 times no-stop even when I was young. IMO, it has a lot to do with the form design (and amount of kicks in the form).


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Thanks for sharing your forms. I like your moves that in some striking, your front arm, body, back arm all form a perfect straight line. This kind of training doesn't exist in all MA styles.
> 
> When I was young, I was the only student in my MA class that I tried to put 100% power into all my punch and kick. By doing that, I always felt tired even just after 1 form training. When I get older, I no longer think about my power. I just let my body to "flow".
> 
> ...


Thank you.  We do work to make the extension a straight line from front to back.  Sometimes more successful than others, but that is what we work for, while pushing the ground with the feet to drive the rotation.

This is where I disagree with you when you say that forms are for teaching but not for training.  I believe they are for training.  If done with mindful rooting and power generation, then they are good practice and good training, over and over.

The first form you show here, I agree, can be done many times without a break.  The second one, I agree, cannot be done in that way.  Too energetic, too long, too complex to do it that way. Once exhaustion sets in, the quality of the training just deteriorates to a point where it becomes worthless other than simply for cardio conditioning.  But running can fulfill that need.

So it depends on what one is practicing.  Some things can be done with high repetition.  Others cannot.  I enjoy forms training.  Our forms are long and energetic, and they give me good cardio, even when I don’t do many repetitions of each one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> This is where I disagree with you when you say that forms are for teaching but not for training.  I believe they are for training.  If done with mindful rooting and power generation, then they are good practice and good training, over and over.


Let's take your form as an example. If I train your form, I'll consider sequence

- 0.01 - 0.36 as 1st unit.
- 0.38 - 1.00 as 2nd unit.

I may drill unit 1 20 times. After that I may drill unit 2 20 times.

In other words, I'll consider a form is constructed as many combos that are linked to as a sequence. I don't train the order of this combos. I only train about the content of the individual combo.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's take your form as an example. If I train your form, I'll consider sequence
> 
> - 0.01 - 0.36 as 1st unit.
> - 0.38 - 1.00 as 2nd unit.
> ...


Well, as I feel a form is simply a training tool and not something of divine origins, I feel they can be broken apart and tinkered with and if you choose to focus on one segment for a lot of repetition, there is nothing wrong with that.  With the structure of this particular form, changing the order of the sequence is easy to do and a viable training approach.  I don’t see anything wrong with that.  Ive even developed my own sequences which I’ve slipped into the form at various times.  As I say, it’s a training tool.  Use it to get some benefits.  Change it up if it increases your benefits.  It isn’t sacred as it currently exists.

As the video shows, each segment is one trip down and back.  My Sihing told me that in the early days of when Sifu was teaching, the original method was each segment was just one trip down.  For the return trip, the next punch was done.  They decided as a group to change it so that each punch was done down and back.  Furthermore, this form has several variations; I practice four.  One includes some kicks and the punches are done in clusters of three instead of one.  Another steps through on the punch instead of punching with the rear hand.  Another drops every step into a low forward sweep.  Sifu told me that he developed his own version, which I have not seen yet.  The one that I did in the video is the easiest and most straight-forward and least complex.  That makes it very clear to me: forms are just training tools.  They can be changed.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> Not at first, obviously. He used to come to New England a lot, used to stay with a friend of mine. Ed was always my go to guy when I had a question on Martial Ethics or history. Regardless of what that question might be, his advice always turned out to be spot on.
> 
> I addressed him as Master Parker in front of students, or people I didn't know, just as I would for anyone else of that ilk as a matter of Martial respect and protocol. But if we were hanging, we were hanging. Jokes and Italian food, which he loved both of, were always a big thing. If you had a good joke, he was the best audience you could have, he had an infectious laugh.
> 
> ...


You knew him better than I -  Never saw that side of him, but then, I was a kid of 22 or there abouts.  The closest I got was while we were off-roading in the hills with a couple of other guys, one of whom was a mutual business associate.  We were acting a little "unconventional" as we were apt to do, and I wondered what Parker was thinking about us crazies as we were whooping it up, bouncing around on the fire roads, hoping he wasn't freaking out.  I did get the impression he wasn't ready to die that day, but he had a stoic smile on his face, taking it all in.  I'm pretty sure he enjoyed the surprise adventure.


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## Gweilo (Nov 8, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Please provide more detail. Which move? At which point (timestamp) of that form?
> 
> May be I should start a new thread so I can collect different opinions about that form (one of my favor discussion subjects).
> 
> ...


Sorry it's been a while, perhaps you should start a thread to collect opinions, Imo, in the first video, the practioner leads with the shoulders, which is followed by the corresponding leg, left shoulder lead, followed by left leg etc, on several movements, the leg is almost stamped down, once the move starts, the muscle memory puts the lead knee at risk of a counter, due to the repetitive training, you could feint, but the shoulder gives away the intent.


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## Denis4fight (Nov 30, 2019)

Forms are a way to practice, when you have no training partner.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 30, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In other words, I'll consider a form is constructed as many combos that are linked to as a sequence. I don't train the order of this combos. I only train about the content of the individual combo.


This is how Jow Ga is. the forms are made of actual combos and individual strikes.  The combos that we drill are actually pieces of various forms.  So a combo in the beginner form is also found in  a more advance form because it's a combo.  As a beginner I used to do the forms without really thinking about combo vs individual technique.  It wasn't until I decided to actually learn how to use the techniques that I began to pick it up.  As a beginner I used to think that the drilling of combos were just bite size pieces that will help to make the form easier to learn.  I was so wrong then. lol.

Now when I see other forms, I try to determine if I'm looking at a combo or individual technique. I question if it makes sense to attack with the next technique within a form or does it make more sense to do that technique as an individual technique.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 30, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Now when I see other forms, I try to determine if I'm looking at a combo or individual technique. I question if it makes sense to attack with the next technique within a form or does it make more sense to do that technique as an individual technique.


Here is a long fist 5 punches combo. It makes great sense.

1. You throw a "hook". Your opponent dodges under it.
2. You "back fist" on top of his head, He blocks up.
3. You "under hook" his chin. He blocks down.
4. You "hammer" his head. He blocks up again.
5. You "straight punch" his chest.


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## geezer (Nov 30, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I can never do the following form 20 times no-stop even when I was young. IMO, it has a lot to do with the form design (and amount of kicks in the form).



Here's some more demos, in this case of _bajiquan_, being performed on the same windy dirt lot on the same day (same bikes against the wall in the background). I really enjoy these clips.




John, I don't speak or read Chinese. Could you tell me where this demo is taking place?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 30, 2019)

geezer said:


> Here's some more demos, in this case of _bajiquan_, being performed on the same windy dirt lot on the same day (same bikes against the wall in the background). I really enjoy these clips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This clip also came from my video camera. The place is Meng Village, Hopei providence (The birthplace of the Baji system). The time was 1986 (or 1987).


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## geezer (Nov 30, 2019)

John, that's one of my favorite youtube videos on Chinese martial arts! It is so obviously authentic and of high quality. Moreover, it records what I understand may be disappearing arts since people say that the old village arts are dying out. 

I know it's a digression from the OP, but anything else you can share about that video would be great to hear.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 30, 2019)

geezer said:


> I know it's a digression from the OP, but anything else you can share about that video would be great to hear.


The whole clip is too big. Here is part of the Lou Tong visit, another Baji birth place.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 1, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a long fist 5 punches combo. It makes great sense.
> 
> 1. You throw a "hook". Your opponent dodges under it.
> 2. You "back fist" on top of his head, He blocks up.
> ...


  Here's what I like about this only because I've done similar.
1. You throw a hook, - this can be done to hit or be done to trick your opponent to doge in a way to set up the back fist.
Or start from 4 instead of starting at 1.   Hammer fist to straight punch

The combo can be done as a whole or done as parts and it doesn't  have to start at 1.   The order in which the combo flows remains same, like you can't go backwards,   but you can start anywhere within the list and flow towards 5

My thoughts are.  Good combos drive the opponent to where they need to be for a follow up strike or grappling attempt.  Bad combos are those that allow your opponent to counter as they please.  For example, when I need my opponent's combo to set up my own.


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