# Now I've seen it all



## MisterMike (Sep 10, 2005)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Martial-Arts-Certificate-Rank-Diploma-Koga-Ryu-Ninjutsu_W0QQitemZ7181823972QQcategoryZ16044QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



> This item is a *Koga Ryu Ninjutsu Black Belt (Dan) Certificate* which I designed.
> 
> The certificates are the same as in the picture except with your information, or you can have it sent blank. Both options are the same price. You will get the Japanese certificate and the English translation certificate (both shown in photo.)
> 
> ...


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 10, 2005)

hmmmm.....sad.


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## shesulsa (Sep 10, 2005)

Wow.


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## terryl965 (Sep 11, 2005)

why train just buy and overnight you can walk through walls.


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## KenpoEMT (Sep 11, 2005)

This really is a very sad example of the state of being within our society.  Must instant gratification dominate every aspect of our culture?


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## arnisador (Sep 11, 2005)

Well, it's not the first martial arts diploma mill.


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## davidg553 (Sep 12, 2005)

MisterMike said:
			
		

> http://cgi.ebay.com/Martial-Arts-Certificate-Rank-Diploma-Koga-Ryu-Ninjutsu_W0QQitemZ7181823972QQcategoryZ16044QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Did they say how long it would take for you recieve yours in the mail?  artyon:


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## MisterMike (Sep 12, 2005)

davidg553 said:
			
		

> Did they say how long it would take for you recieve yours in the mail? artyon:


I had a blank one over-nighted so I can make us both copies.


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## Sam (Sep 12, 2005)

I've stopped being disgusted by these.

like my physical therapist said to me last week,

*pulling up his dress shirt when someone asked me about my rank* "I'm wearing a black belt, but my 16 year old patient here could beat the crap out of me, I wonder how much rank matters anyway?"


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## someguy (Sep 12, 2005)

Well I am the founder of Whata goosai yam style.  Say it really really fast.
So I'll tell you rank is the most important thing in the world.  Pay me $50 and I'll send you your black belt today.


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## ginshun (Sep 12, 2005)

someguy said:
			
		

> Well I am the founder of Whata goosai yam style.  Say it really really fast.
> So I'll tell you rank is the most important thing in the world.  Pay me $50 and I'll send you your black belt today.


 Is that related to Owa Tayfoo Liam Style?  I am a 10th Dan in that.

 Pretty cool that John Doe got his 3rd Dan on my 30th birthday.  Coincidense?

 I think not.

 *disappears*


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## Fallen Ninja (Sep 12, 2005)

Notice how they used a extinct Ninjutsu art to get rank in? Now it can look like whatever you want and there is no reverence to something you don't deserve to know.:CTF:


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## Cryozombie (Sep 12, 2005)

Dood.

 Im so buying that.

 What the hell was i thinking... actually training and learning technique and skill... wowza!

 For 15 bucks I can be CERTIFIED.


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## hardheadjarhead (Sep 12, 2005)

Look at all the buyer comments.  Something like 46 people bought those.  He made a goodly sum.  I'm half tempted to collect their e-mails and find out who they are.  

Cheez.



Regards,


Steve


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## RichK (Sep 13, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> why train just buy and overnight you can walk through walls.


 I can walk through walls if I get that one??? I already got the one that let's me walk on water!


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 13, 2005)

> For 15 bucks I can be CERTIFIED.


_I always thought you where certifiable  :rofl: _


_Now as to the cert being offered :mrtoilet:   it is a shame but some folks will but the damn thing and con hundreds of people with it_


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## Don Roley (Sep 23, 2005)

The sad thing is, I suspect that the guy who made the original certificate is a Bujinkan member who used to live in Japan.

Mark Breckt used to try various ways to make money while living in Japan. One of them was selling Japanese calligraphy and custom orders on e-bay.

At an e-budo drink up, he showed up. Tony Kehoe and I were nearest the door when he came in. For some reason he almost immediatly started talking about how he was _forced_ to make out something for someone he knew would use it to decieve others. He told us that he tried to discourage the other guy by raising the price, but the other guy agreed to it and so he had NO CHOICE but to write it out in Japanese.

I think I stopped Tony from killing him with a look. We pretty much made him feel unwelcome for the rest of the night. Tony made comments that made Brekt feel like he was three inches tall, but refrained from violence and I told him they were true. The fact that he never thought of just refusing the order disgusted me. And Tony is even more excitable about those things than I.

That certificate was well made. If you took it down to a local sushi place and asked a native speaker he could find no fault with it. That is more than most certificates I have seen. One I can recall was issued by the "heavenly dog asssociation" among other things. Now almost 50 people have yet another means of getting money out of those who know no better.

I can't prove it was Breckt. But I know he did something like this. And I am not going to restrain myself if I ever see him again.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 21, 2005)

I remember Wagner Sensei saying something about the translation issue. I wasn't aware it was Mark Brecht though.
I must ask him about it again. But being as I have seen the other certificates given to him from Obata and Kimeda, and the fact I don't read Kanji, this one slipped by me.


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## Don Roley (Oct 22, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> I remember Wagner Sensei saying something about the translation issue. I wasn't aware it was Mark Brecht though.
> I must ask him about it again. But being as I have seen the other certificates given to him from Obata and Kimeda, and the fact I don't read Kanji, this one slipped by me.



So you are saying that Jackson Wagner bought fake certificates off of Breckt? 

And of course, how can you tell that the certificates from Kimeda and Obata were legit?

The only certificate I have seen from Wagner preceeded the Breckt story and was quite funny in it's many mistakes. Among other things, it was issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association." Wagner got roasted on e-budo for that.

I quess it would make sense after being burned like that to seek out someone like Breckt who could make a decent certificate. Breckt was known on e-budo and advertised his services there at about the time that Wagner was exposed. It makes sense.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 22, 2005)

Good trap. No I am going by your story. I have no idea about the certificate. but by what you were saying it would be the same.

As for Kimeda and Obata, hypothetically yes as in anything they could be forged. I did make some equations after seeing Jackson with both Kimeda and Obata on video together working at a fairly high level and in speaking with some of Jacksons former training pals.
Maybe email Jackson and ask him yourself for his explaination. Mind you he has re entered the Military so don't expect a quick response.

Now for a bit. I have never heard Jackson go on about Ninjutsu. His movement has no accent of it either. It is an Aikido based movement, which I would expect with Kimeda having some influence. The sword work, which is where I am told some Ninjutsu schools are present. Again I am not  Kenjutsu expert so, I take that at it's word.  Jackson is an excellent practitioner of the sword and H2H. Along with that a liscenced first responder, volunteer firefighter, repeller and survival instructor. All of these I have witnessed and seen the proper paperwork. He was a former soldier and is back in the services now. So to be honest he is alot more action than talk. 
Beyond that, he would have no problem with anyone at all questioning him personally. Even as much as a challenge. If it did occur, I'd like to watch.
I personally enjoy what he shows me. It doesn't conflict at all with taijutsu training, so I will continue.

But to reiterate, I was going by your original post, as it seemed to make sense as you quoted the certificate that had been supposed to Jackson.
I wasn't admitting anything.


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## Don Roley (Oct 22, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Along with that a liscenced first responder, volunteer firefighter, repeller and survival instructor. All of these I have witnessed and seen the proper paperwork.



Of course, how do you know the proper paperwork is real? We know he created a false certificate. He could do it for other areas and claims. Frank Dux created a fake military record and tried to pass it off. Why not Jackson? Of course, none of the things you mention are really hard to get or have much relevance in the case.

The more I think about it, the more certain I am that Jackson Wagner was the one that Brecht was talking about making an obviously fake certificate for. Tony Kehoe was one of the other Japanese speakers who had laughed over just how bad Wagner's fake certificate was. Why did Brecht feel the need to volunteer just how bad he felt unless he was motivated by a little sense of guilt and maybe fear that we knew what he had done?

Of course, the whole thing means that you can't trust paperwork now. The certificate at the beggining of this thread would pass muster from most Japanese unless they knew the subject matter. I used to be able to tell people that if they had doubts to take any paperwork to a Japanese speaker in the area and see of their ocha spurt out of their nose while reading it. With the certificate that I believe Wagner got from Brecht and this certificate out there, that is no longer the case.

You now have to be sure that if someone says they trained under a certain teacher, that you can go to that teacher and ask for confirmation. If I were a teacher I would not find offensive people wanted to check with my teacher to see if I was all I claimed to be.

As funny as the idea of people buying certificates off of the internet is, you have to think that for every certificate sold there are possibly seceral students being fooled.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 23, 2005)

Oh as far as needing lots of proof, well I agree with you on that. I have proven to myself you can't take someone at their word.

As for Jackson, well the proof was in the pudding. Just after he picked my up from the airport we witnessed an accident. He pulled over and yanked his jump kit, proceeded to scene, even after the officers arrived still continueing service. I have been to his firehouse, look up Otter Creek fire Dept in BC I believe. He is listed there.
As for the survival thing, not only have I been thru a course of his I have seen multitudes of certificates and testimonials to that. Including recipts from some companies that hired him for group dynamic building.

These things there are more than concrete proof of.

as for the certificate, well I have no way of debunking that. email him yourself if you want the answer. He did give me one on that, that did make sense and did corespond to what you said. But not to the tee.

I will re ask him. After he gets out of the field.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 23, 2005)

As for the military thing. It just isn't as complex as the whole Dux thing. He has records, uniforms, pics in field etc etc. Honestly do you think becuase you disagree with the guy everything is bull?

For once Don, try and take a positive outlook. Maybe he is a really good martial artist, etc etc etc.

You just seem to take a personality that for some legit reasons you don't care too much for and from that point on it is your job to prove they have little reason to exist.


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## Don Roley (Oct 24, 2005)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> For once Don, try and take a positive outlook. Maybe he is a really good martial artist, etc etc etc.



Why would a good martial artist need to fake a certificate like Jackson Wagner did?

And don't assume that just because _you_ think someone is a good martial artist that he is. That is why I call you arrogent. Lets face it, if there is a fraud that everyone laughs at, nine times out of ten you can be counted to show up and say you like them. You seem to have very low standards. And I know your level of experience and real life application is low. So what puts you in a position to judge the level of other martial artists unless you want to say that you are high level? I can say that people speak good Japanese or not because I can speak it and I use it every day. Without a lot of experience in the art and on the street, how can anyone make a judgement on whether a martial artist is teaching something effective?

This is why I put so much importance on personal integrity. I do not assume to know the answers or be able to make 100 percent correct judgements in this area. I know I can be fooled in terms of martial arts ability. I know that my experience in the street is not as much as someone like Marc MacYoung and thus my ability to judge is lower. That is why I would never trust someone who I know lied about something to make himself look good. If they are willing to do something like make up a fake certificate, then they are probably willing to lie about something in terms of the art if it makes them look bad. And I do not assume that I will be able to tell when they do so.

Hence, honesty in an instructor is of prime importance. If they do not have integririty, there is nothing that you can learn from them that you can't learn better from someone else.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 24, 2005)

Fair enough, your logic makes sense.
I guess the only reason I will judge it to my opinion as I have stated. Is because I have witnessed and worked with him.
I won't make any comment about someone I have no experience with.

Fair enough if my opinion means little. I don't have to answer to anyone but my teacher. I think Jackson is a great guy and a great martial artist in my opinion. Take it for what it's worth which for you is little.

I haven't got too much else to say about it. Maybe when you move to the states we can come to a seminar and share, you may then see what I am talking about, if there is any validity to it. Until then you have your opinion and I will have mine.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 24, 2005)

RichK said:
			
		

> I can walk through walls if I get that one??? I already got the one that let's me walk on water!


I can already walk thru walls.  All I gotta do is get my sifu to give me a good solid kick in the guts and he can send me right thru the wall.  Maybe their way is a bit gentler?


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