# mythological figures



## tshadowchaser (Apr 3, 2007)

Which figure in  mythology would you be or which do you feel was the most important


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2007)

Sun Wukong


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

Ogma - what could be of greater impact that bringing the gift of writing to mankind?  

Everything else flows from the transmission of the wisdom of previous generations.  Without it we'd still be wearing skins and chasing after prey with fire hardened wooden sticks (or maybe wouldn't have ousted the Neanderthal).


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 3, 2007)

I have always been quite fond of Indra the king of the Vedic Indian gods, but I truly have a soft spot for the Aztec god Tlahuiztelpantecuhtli because his name translates as "Warrior of the Dawn Star".


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 3, 2007)

any of the norse gods, or heroes, or even just regular folks.

valhalla means drinking, wenching and fighting for eternity.

sign me right the hell up.


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## Carol (Apr 3, 2007)

Athena.  

A goddess strong and smart.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Shiva The Destroyer of course.
Sean


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## HKphooey (Apr 3, 2007)

Echidna


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> Echidna


And just who might that be?


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

Come on chaps ... a little 'why' to go with the 'what' would be good.

*Carol*'s choice I can understand from what I read in her posts - the Goddess of virtuous valour and wisdom - but 'Echidna', *HK*?  My multi-panthenic knowledge obviously has gaps so a little illuminating help would be good .  And why _Shiva_, *ToD*, a goddess with many negatice assocations?

Understand I'm not being critical of anyones choices here, I'm just intrigued as to what lies behind them (and eager to learn when those choices are of divinities I don't know much about).


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Come on chaps ... a little 'why' to go with the 'what' would be good.
> 
> *Carol*'s choice I can understand from what I read in her posts - the Godess of virtuous valour and wisdom - but 'Echidna', *HK*? My multi-panthenic knowledge obviously has gaps so a little illuminating help would be good . And why _Shiva_, *ToD*, a goddess with many negatice assocations?
> 
> Understand I'm not being critical of anyones choices here, I'm just intrigued as to what lies behind them (and eager to learn when those choices are of divinities I don't know much about).


The Fact that you don't recognize the term "Destroyer" scares me. Are you sure you study the Martial arts? Remo Williams? hello!
Sean


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## HKphooey (Apr 3, 2007)

Half human/half snake

It is a part chick, but still cool.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

@*ToD*

Okay.  Not an association I'd choose for myself but each to their own.  

I know the background to the *Shivan* cult quite well, I just wondered if there was a deeper association/inference you drew (other than the 'death' aspect) that would help me understand why you chose her as the divinity you would like to be or reckoned to be most significant?


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> @*ToD*
> 
> Okay. Not an association I'd choose for myself but each to their own.
> 
> I know the background to the *Shivan* cult quite well, I just wondered if there was a deeper association/inference you drew (other than the 'death' aspect) that would help me understand why you chose her as the divinity you would like to be or reckoned to be most significant?


You are missing the point. Go rent "Remo Williams the Adventure Begins" or simply read a few of over 100 novels by Richard Sapire and Warren Murphy called "The Destroyer". I have read almost all of them. I wouldn't be in the Martial Arts were it not for these books.(I was very young when exposed to the awesome powers of Shiva)
Sean


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> @*ToD*
> 
> Okay. Not an association I'd choose for myself but each to their own.
> 
> I know the background to the *Shivan* cult quite well, I just wondered if there was a deeper association/inference you drew (other than the 'death' aspect) that would help me understand why you chose her as the divinity you would like to be or reckoned to be most significant?


 
Just a minor thing.  Shiva is most assuredly male.  You might be confusing the Ender of Eras with his rather pugnacious spouse Parvati, sometimes known as Kali, the Dark Mother.

And as for the why you asked about.  Indra, a monster-slayer and great warrior who protects the world from destruction.  That's pretty cool.  But the Warrior of the Dawn Star (Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli - spelled it slightly wrong the first time) he is the great fighting spirit that seeks to destroy the Sun each morning.  A terrifying warrior and patron of sacred warfare for the Aztecs.  He's not such a nice guy as Indra.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

:lol:  We obviously need a smiley for my totally failing to grasp what's going on .  Sorry, my friends; it's late, what can I say :O.  You're quite right about my cross-fertilising mythology, *ST* - darned chardonnay :hic:.


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## Kacey (Apr 3, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Which figure in  mythology would you be or which do you feel was the most important



I don't know about "most important" but I've always been partial to Loki, as I think it's important to have a mythical figure who is a trickster - Coyote, in some American Indian mythology.

A favorite, however, would be Minerva (since Carol already said Athena!) - a female figure who is wise and compassionate...


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I don't know about "most important" but I've always been partial to Loki, as I think it's important to have a mythical figure who is a trickster - Coyote, in some American Indian mythology.
> 
> A favorite, however, would be Minerva (since Carol already said Athena!) - a female figure who is wise and compassionate...


Loki is very Athenic. His influance was meant to scare people in compliance with tradition; where as, Athena incourages a break from tradition.
Sean


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## Shuto (Apr 3, 2007)

Wow, what an interesting thread.  I must say that I'm a bit surprised at some of the Eastern mythological references but when I think about it I really shouldn't be surprised.  I guess that's residual thinking based upon my more Euro-centric exposure to myths.  

Having said that.  I think Vishnu is pretty cool. Creating and destroying Universes while breathing as he sleeps is an intrigueing idea to me.  

My son says he's Hermes because he is the nicest God who didn't get punished for being nice.  He also doesn't want to have vultures eating out his liver.  There's something about being the God of lying as well but I'm in way too deep now and I don't have a clue about what he is talking about.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 3, 2007)

Shuto said:


> Wow, what an interesting thread. I must say that I'm a bit surprised at some of the Eastern mythological references but when I think about it I really shouldn't be surprised. I guess that's residual thinking based upon my more Euro-centric exposure to myths.
> 
> Having said that. I think Vishnu is pretty cool. Creating and destroying Universes while breathing as he sleeps is an intrigueing idea to me.
> 
> My son says he's Hermes because he is the nicest God who didn't get punished for being nice. He also doesn't want to have vultures eating out his liver. There's something about being the God of lying as well but I'm in way too deep now and I don't have a clue about what he is talking about.


 
You do realise that Hermes is the god of lust don't you?  Greece is littered with statues of the rampant little, or should I say big, fellow.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

I'm not sure that that is the major interpretation of the sphere of influence of Hermes, *ST*.  It is true that as well as his more 'honourable' aspects, Hermes is a trickster and a thief but I thought that it was only tangential that he was a 'thief of love'?  Most Grecian divinities have a certain sexual aspect - it's a facet of the (ancient) culture.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm not sure that that is the major interpretation of the sphere of influence of Hermes, *ST*. It is true that as well as his more 'honourable' aspects, Hermes is a trickster and a thief but I thought that it was only tangential that he was a 'thief of love'? Most Grecian divinities have a certain sexual aspect - it's a facet of the (ancient) culture.


I believe the spread of disease was a major cause in the de-sexualiztion of religion.
Sean


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## Sukerkin (Apr 3, 2007)

That's an insightful point. *ToD* and one that would bear deeper investigation.  However, I must bid my farewells for tonight as it nears 3AM and I have to be up for work !


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> That's an insightful point. *ToD* and one that would bear deeper investigation. However, I must bid my farewells for tonight as it nears 3AM and I have to be up for work !


I've done some reading.:rtfm: 
Sean


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## Blotan Hunka (Apr 3, 2007)

Achilles. With a heel touch-up.


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## exile (Apr 3, 2007)

Manawydden, from the _Mabinogion_, the wise, compassionate brother of Bran the Blessed, who tried to prevent the catatrophic war with Ireland and who freed his consort Rhiannon and her son Pryderi from imprisonment by the Lord of the Bright Realm... cool-headed, warm-hearted, with tremendous powerand caution to match about using it...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 4, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Shiva The Destroyer of course.
> Sean


 
Of course. Who else?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 4, 2007)

Beowulf, most definitely.  that guy was just as tough as can be.

I believe the early portions of the poem, where the heros get to boast a bit about past accomplishments, relates where Beowulf and a friend had a swimming contest wherein they were out to sea for something like weeks, in full armor and weapons, swimming for all they are worth, and sea monsters attack and pull him down to the bottom, where he defeats them, and still wins the swimming contest, maybe even saves his friend.  I don't remember exactly, it's probably time to read it again.  Ah, ya gotta love the hero epics!


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## Carol (Apr 4, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I don't know about "most important" but I've always been partial to Loki, as I think it's important to have a mythical figure who is a trickster - Coyote, in some American Indian mythology.
> 
> A favorite, however, would be Minerva (since Carol already said Athena!) - a female figure who is wise and compassionate...




You can pick Athena too.


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## Shaderon (Apr 4, 2007)

I'm picking Scathach 

She's the woman who trained a lot of the male heroes and was a fantastic healer and prophetess, in her time women had a much greater respect, as only they could teach men, and only men could teach women, giving them an equality.   If I've got to go back in time and be a mythical/historical figure.... I'll be a kick-*** healing woman with equality please.


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## JasonASmith (Apr 4, 2007)

Fenris, the great wolf


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## Drac (Apr 4, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are missing the point. Go rent "Remo Williams the Adventure Begins" or simply read a few of over 100 novels by Richard Sapire and Warren Murphy called "The Destroyer". I have read almost all of them. I wouldn't be in the Martial Arts were it not for these books.(I was very young when exposed to the awesome powers of Shiva)
> Sean


 
I am created Shiva the Destroyer...Death..The shatter of worlds..The dead night tiger made whole by the Master of Sinanju..Who is this dog meat that chalenger me..


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## CoryKS (Apr 4, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Achilles. With a heel touch-up.


 
Or at least some sensible shoes.

I'm gonna have to go with Dionysus.  It looks like an easy gig, and the groupies are awesome.   From the Wikipedia article:



> The divine mission of Dionysus was to mingle the music of the flute and to bring an end to care and worry.


 
Aw, yeah...


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## Kacey (Apr 4, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> You can pick Athena too.



Actually, they're the same goddess... just one's Greek, and one's Roman!


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 4, 2007)

Shaderon said:


> I'm picking Scathach
> 
> She's the woman who trained a lot of the male heroes and was a fantastic healer and prophetess, in her time women had a much greater respect, as only they could teach men, and only men could teach women, giving them an equality. If I've got to go back in time and be a mythical/historical figure.... I'll be a kick-*** healing woman with equality please.


 
The situation with Scathach and Cuchullain is very interesting.  some scholars have theorised that the world outside in which Scathach dwelled was possibly a place in Scotland or northern England.  Now what makes this really interesting is that the Brigante people come from northern England and Boudica was a Brigante.  There may have been some tradition which she tapped into to allow her to lead an army.


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## bydand (Apr 9, 2007)

I've always figured being Heimdall would be alright.  

Heimdall was the Norse god who guards the only entrance to Asgard.  He needs almost no sleep, has bat like hearing, and can see for hundreds of miles.  Downside is during the final battle for Asgard he kills Loki, but dies as well.  Oh well, can't live forever I guess, and those solid gold teeth would probably have been the bling to catch a few honeys before I got married.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2007)

bydand said:


> I've always figured being Heimdall would be alright.
> 
> Heimdall was the Norse god who guards the only entrance to Asgard.  He needs almost no sleep, has bat like hearing, and can see for hundreds of miles.  Downside is during the final battle for Asgard he kills Loki, but dies as well.  Oh well, can't live forever I guess, and those solid gold teeth would probably have been the bling to catch a few honeys before I got married.



Hey, I remember him... he guards the Bifrost bridge, isn't that right? 

Gotta love those Scandinavian mythologies... such a stoically tragic view of life, eh? The final battle, Gottedamerung, is about as a depressing a vision of the End of All Things as you can find... 

you _sure_ you want to be Heimdall, Scott??


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## bydand (Apr 9, 2007)

exile said:


> Hey, I remember him... he guards the Bifrost bridge, isn't that right?



A+  for paying attention in class during school.  I heard about him in 6th grade and it stuck with me.  I used to switch between wanting to be Loki and Heimdall, but settled on Heimdall years ago. (Will not say exactly, but 6th grade was 30+ years ago.




> Gotta love those Scandinavian mythologies... such a stoically tragic view of life, eh? The final battle, Gottedamerung, is about as a depressing a vision of the End of All Things as you can find...
> 
> you _sure_ you want to be Heimdall, Scott??



Yeah I know, but really, when you think about him in context of what his main job is (keeping the Giants from invading Asgard) and being a warrior, a life in Valhalla would be stressful without anybody to be on guard against and would be unbearable after a while, so better to die defending something you care about, than languish in obscurity you know.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

bydand said:


> I've always figured being Heimdall would be alright.
> 
> Heimdall was the Norse god who guards the only entrance to Asgard. He needs almost no sleep, has bat like hearing, and can see for hundreds of miles. Downside is during the final battle for Asgard he kills Loki, but dies as well. Oh well, can't live forever I guess, and those solid gold teeth would probably have been the bling to catch a few honeys before I got married.


 
Are you sure?  Heimdall has always had a reputation as being a little slow, very steadfast, but not firing on all cylinders.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2007)

bydand said:


> A+  for paying attention in class during school.  I heard about him in 6th grade and it stuck with me.  I used to switch between wanting to be Loki and Heimdall, but settled on Heimdall years ago. (Will not say exactly, but 6th grade was 30+ years ago.



When I was a kid, I started reading a lot of mythologyGreek myths (the very gritty Robert Graves versions, not the prettied-up tales from Bullfinch and Co.), Icelandic saga and Welsh myths from the _Mabinogi_, and for some reason, the fact that Heimdall guarded a bridge called Bifrost stuck with meI pictured it as a delicate ice-structure kind of thingie. I always disliked Lokihe seemed like a professional malcontent, the kind of guy we all know who pisses people off with stupid actions and obnoxious statements and then figure it's all _their_ fault. 



bydand said:


> Yeah I know, but really, when you think about him in context of what his main job is (keeping the Giants from invading Asgard) and being a warrior, a life in Valhalla would be stressful without anybody to be on guard against and would be unbearable after a while, so better to die defending something you care about, than languish in obscurity you know.



No question, it's a wonderful ideal to have to live up to! I actually _like_ the darkness of Scandinavian mythology. In a lot of religious/mythological traditions, you're basically given the assurance that there will be a reward in the next life for the pain suffered in this one, that in the end the Good will triumph over the Bad and so on... things we'd all like to believe. But the ancient Scandinavians were a lot grimmer than that: they never lost sight of the the power of evil. No eternal harp-playing; instead, Surtur sets fire to the world and burns down the world-tree Yggsdrasil, the Fenris Wolf shows up and... does really awful stuff and... that's all folks.

I dimly recall that that _wasn't_ quite all, actually. Loki, Surtur, the Asgaardians and so on almost all die in the final fiery battle, but a few survive and the universe is recreated... it's kind of vague, though. Am I making that last part up? I seem to recall reading it in a couple of overview sources on Nordic mythology... but maybe it's just wishful thinking?


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 9, 2007)

There are documented cases of Scandinavians attacking traders, killing everyone, but taking no booty. Their religion forbade even the temptation of foreign goods and wealth. We just don't think like those people did anymore.
sean


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

exile said:


> I dimly recall that that _wasn't_ quite all, actually. Loki, Surtur, the Asgaardians and so on almost all die in the final fiery battle, but a few survive and the universe is recreated... it's kind of vague, though. Am I making that last part up? I seem to recall reading it in a couple of overview sources on Nordic mythology... but maybe it's just wishful thinking?


 
You're right.  At Ragnarok the gods and giants paired off for numerous single combats and most died.  Then Surtur burned up the world.  some of the gods survived.  Balder, who had died earlier and come back to life (a sun god perhaps?), and the sons of Thor Vidar and Vili (Vidar, by the way, kills Fenris after he swallowed Odin by stepping on his lower jaw and ripping his head apart) all survived and went on to make a new world.

There is an interesting parallel between the story of Ragnarok and the Mahabarata of Vedic Indian mythology.  Both are concerned with the destruction of the world through a catastrophic battle and both are told from the point of view of a story told to descendants of the survivors of the war.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 9, 2007)

Can you elaborate on that, *ToD*?  

Unless we're talking at sixes and sevens, the Norse culture from which sprang the principle of going a-Viking, was very largely based on warrior cults for whom the idea of fighting and pillaging was sacred.  Most of the large Viking settlements were packed to rafters with plundered materials.  That's what gave them their start-up capital for the later trading/settling empire.

The whole era is a somewhat under-appreciated segment of European history and it only fell because of it's own success.  In a grim warning to the Western powers of the present day, the Viking commercial empire was destroyed from within as the warrior cults that gave it it's toehold became marginalised and turned upon the culture that spawned them.


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## Ninjamom (Apr 9, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> Echidna


Isn't that....like..... an egg-laying porcupine????
http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/article.cfm?articleId=763&issueId=61


I think I'd be Anteus, a son of the Earth, who drew strength from being in touch with the earth - give me a week away in a mountain retreat, in a dense forest, by a stream or a lake, any day!!  Anteus was able to hold his own against Hercules, because every time Herc threw him down or nearly pinned him to the ground, he got stronger and got back up (I can relate).

Of course, Herc. ended up beating him by holding him overhead, away from the earth, until his strength drained.  But such is the downside of mythology.


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## bydand (Apr 9, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Are you sure?  Heimdall has always had a reputation as being a little slow, very steadfast, but not firing on all cylinders.



According to my wife, that about sums it up. 

Actually though, I think it would be a refreshing change to not think about things so much, and just go with the flow.  Sometimes it feels like it would be nice to be just smart enough to do your given job, but dumb enough to not know (or care) how much more there is out there to absorb and learn all the time.  As it is though, I almost have an obsession for learning new things.  If the wife brings home a book about Molecular Biology, I HAVE to read it; if I run across something I never heard of I have to research it out and find out all I can about it (newest was about Seiche in narrow bodies of water.)  I wouldn't mind being a bit of a dim bulb for a bit.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

Ninjamom said:


> Isn't that....like..... an egg-laying porcupine????
> http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/article.cfm?articleId=763&issueId=61
> 
> 
> ...


 
Don't go up against those culture heroes, they win every time.  Except Quetzalcoatl, he was forced to flee on a raft made of snakes.


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## stickarts (Apr 9, 2007)

bydand said:


> I've always figured being Heimdall would be alright.
> 
> Heimdall was the Norse god who guards the only entrance to Asgard. He needs almost no sleep, has bat like hearing, and can see for hundreds of miles. Downside is during the final battle for Asgard he kills Loki, but dies as well. Oh well, can't live forever I guess, and those solid gold teeth would probably have been the bling to catch a few honeys before I got married.


 
Heimdall and Hercules were some of my favorites. But there are so many.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> You're right.  At Ragnarok the gods and giants paired off for numerous single combats and most died.  Then Surtur burned up the world.  some of the gods survived.  Balder, who had died earlier and come back to life (a sun god perhaps?), and the sons of Thor Vidar and Vili (Vidar, by the way, kills Fenris after he swallowed Odin by stepping on his lower jaw and ripping his head apart) all survived and went on to make a new world.



Yes! Now I remember those two guys (hard to tell them apart, lol!). But it _does_ get a little vague so far as the last part is concerned, no? I had the impression that the ancient Norse weren't all that interested in the details of what happened after Ragnarok. It was almost as though their own identification was with the Asgaardians, and even though there was a new world to come, they really regarded the end of the Asgardian pantheon as the end, period. I found it very striking, because in many religions, it would be the new world _after_ the destruction of Asgaard that would be the focus, but in Norse mythology, it was like, well, our best days are behind us...



Steel Tiger said:


> There is an interesting parallel between the story of Ragnarok and the Mahabarata of Vedic Indian mythology.  Both are concerned with the destruction of the world through a catastrophic battle and both are told from the point of view of a story told to descendants of the survivors of the war.



This might have been a feature of the very ancient Indo-European ancestral religion, eh? The mythologies of the descendent groups did change substantially (though there are interesting details which recur throughout, like the `rope/sky' illusion that shows up in both Indian and Welsh mythology). But it would be surprising if there weren't certain elements preserved from the ancestral system...


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

exile said:


> This might have been a feature of the very ancient Indo-European ancestral religion, eh? The mythologies of the descendent groups did change substantially (though there are interesting details which recur throughout, like the `rope/sky' illusion that shows up in both Indian and Welsh mythology). But it would be surprising if there weren't certain elements preserved from the ancestral system...


 
I think that it is very likely that the story of the end of the world is very, very, very old in the Indo-European tradition.  The parallels between Vedic India and the Norse are very noticeable; much more so than between the Vedic and the Greeks, for instance.  Just think about this:

Vedic


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

exile said:


> This might have been a feature of the very ancient Indo-European ancestral religion, eh? The mythologies of the descendent groups did change substantially (though there are interesting details which recur throughout, like the `rope/sky' illusion that shows up in both Indian and Welsh mythology). But it would be surprising if there weren't certain elements preserved from the ancestral system...


 
I think that it is very likely that the story of the end of the world is very, very, very old in the Indo-European tradition. The parallels between Vedic India and the Norse are very noticeable; much more so than between the Vedic and the Greeks, for instance. Just think about this:

Vedic                                 Norse                               Greek
Indra                                 Thor                                 Zeus
Mitra                                 Teuw (?)                           Apollo
Varuna                              Wotan                                  ?

These are the three main gods of the pantheon.  The Indo-European tradition has a strong focus on the number three.  Indra/Thor/Zeus is the thunder god, the monster slayer.  Mitra/Teuw/Apollo is the god of light.  Varuna/Wotan/? is the god of knowledge.  It is interesting to note that the way Vedic names are pronounced is to say 'v' as 'w' and to drop final vowels.  So Varuna becomes Warun.  I just can't find the equivalent god to Wotan among the Greeks.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> I just can't find the equivalent god to Wotan among the Greeks.



There seems to have been some rearrangement in the ranks, though... Odin occupies a place comparable to Zeus in the Greek pantheon, but as you imply, he's not the thunder god_Thor_ is (Mjolnir, the hammer, is the source of both thunder and lightning, I'd expect). Wotan/Odin is... hard to say, eh? Hangs out with ravens... almost more like a male Athena: she picks up wisdom from the owl on her shoulder, he gets it from ravens whispering in his ear. All in all, a bit spookey...


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 9, 2007)

exile said:


> There seems to have been some rearrangement in the ranks, though... Odin occupies a place comparable to Zeus in the Greek pantheon, but as you imply, he's not the thunder god_Thor_ is (Mjolnir, the hammer, is the source of both thunder and lightning, I'd expect). Wotan/Odin is... hard to say, eh? Hangs out with ravens... almost more like a male Athena: she picks up wisdom from the owl on her shoulder, he gets it from ravens whispering in his ear. All in all, a bit spookey...


 
It a bit annoying really.  Zeus is less a name than the word 'god' (_deus_).  I like the connection between Athena's owl and Wotan's ravens.  Then there's that whole, "died and hung on a tree for nine days to gain knowledge" thing with Wotan.  Now that's seriously creepy.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> It a bit annoying really.  Zeus is less a name than the word 'god' (_deus_).  I like the connection between Athena's owl and Wotan's ravens.  Then there's that whole, "died and hung on a tree for nine days to gain knowledge" thing with Wotan.  Now that's seriously creepy.



I agree... _really_ creepy!

The Welsh mythological hero figure Llew Llaw Gyffes, `The Lion with the Steady Hand', was killed and took the form of an eagle, sitting in a tree, his flesh rotting away from his wound, until his uncle Gwydion found him and restored him to life and human form... I wonder if there's a connection... I get the feeling that Odin/Wotan was a bit of an upstart, but how can you tell? There's no one really like him in any of the the other Indo-European pantheons, I gather. Where the hell did he _come_ from??


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

I think Wotan is a serious hangover from a way earlier tradition.  He is a shaman.  He talks to the dead, visits the spirit world, and has an eye that can see spirits.  His horse, Sleipnir, with its eight legs is considered to represent a funeral procession carrying a body to it final rest.  

Though he is the leader of the Asgardians there are not that many stories about him.  Somewhere along the line he has replaced the thunder god as the leader.  The cognate figure in India, Varuna, is considered one of the trinity but does not get much attention.  He is the Lord of Knowledge and the guardian of the law.  Among the Norse this second job was handed over to Teuw/Tyr who is the third of the trinity among the Norse.


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## exile (Apr 10, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> I think Wotan is a serious hangover from a way earlier tradition.  He is a shaman.  He talks to the dead, visits the spirit world, and has an eye that can see spirits.  His horse, Sleipnir, with its eight legs is considered to represent a funeral procession carrying a body to it final rest.
> 
> Though he is the leader of the Asgardians there are not that many stories about him.  Somewhere along the line he has replaced the thunder god as the leader. The cognate figure in India, Varuna, is considered one of the trinity but does not get much attention.  He is the Lord of Knowledge and the guardian of the law.  Among the Norse this second job was handed over to Teuw/Tyr who is the third of the trinity among the Norse.



Your comment about shamanism is very suggestive, ST. It started me thinking... Indo-European mythologies look very different from each other in many respects, though there are also some deep resemblances that aren't shared with those of linguistically unrelated groups. One plausible factor that might account for the variation is syncreticism with figures from the religious/mythological traditions of the local, pre-IE people that the various subparts of the IE juggernaut encountered as they radiated out from their homeland and conquered pretty much everything in their path. We have pretty good reason to think that Dionysus was something along those line, a Phrygian, maybe even Scythian figure, who comports only very strangely with the standard IE pantheon (similarly with Hecate and various others); it's probably the case that the oddness of much of Celtic mythology relative to the rest of the IE population arises from the same roots.  

So maybe Odin/Wotan is a hangover from one of the non-IE peoples that the early Scandinavians came in contact with. Shamanism is a characteristic feature of a lot of high-latitude groups in the northern hemisphere&#8212;the Inuits, Goldi, Samoyed, Chukchee and a bunch of others had them&#8212;and it wouldn't be all that surprising to find one of their intercessor figures who regularly travels between the world of the living and the world of the dead showing up in the cosmology of the upstart invaders at one point. What's strange is that he wound up displacing Thor/Tyr as the boss of the outfit...


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 10, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Can you elaborate on that, *ToD*?
> 
> Unless we're talking at sixes and sevens, the Norse culture from which sprang the principle of going a-Viking, was very largely based on warrior cults for whom the idea of fighting and pillaging was sacred. Most of the large Viking settlements were packed to rafters with plundered materials. That's what gave them their start-up capital for the later trading/settling empire.
> 
> The whole era is a somewhat under-appreciated segment of European history and it only fell because of it's own success. In a grim warning to the Western powers of the present day, the Viking commercial empire was destroyed from within as the warrior cults that gave it it's toehold became marginalised and turned upon the culture that spawned them.


It not so much the Vikings I am talking about. After all they were just groups of toughs that got together and did some damage. A history teacher once compare them to Motorcycle Gangs which usaly consisted of about thirty people. These cults you refer to came from the basic religion of the people in general and the religions were very backward thinking. Any Change was usualy a sign of future horrors to come; so they feared it. Loki was a god of craft, and to be "crafty" is still a negative term even in English. In that sense craft is to go against the gods and tradition. Athena on the other hand was also a goddess of crafts and in a western tradition she is good and wise; hence, western thought. Cool huh?
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 10, 2007)

exile said:


> Odin/Wotan...


 

yeah yeah yeah, whatever.... I would STILL rather be Sun Wukong
http://www.answers.com/sun wukong :uhyeah:

Impressive conversation there though about Odin/Woton, much I did not know and I thought I had a grasp on that stuff. Or at least I use to. Before I got old that is.


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## exile (Apr 10, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> yeah yeah yeah, whatever.... I would STILL rather be Sun Wukong
> http://www.answers.com/sun wukong :uhyeah:
> 
> Impressive conversation there though about Odin/Woton, much I did not know and I thought I had a grasp on that stuff. Or at least I use to. Before I got old that is.



Let's not use the world `old' in this company, XSas someone who celebrated his 60th birthday more than 2 weeks ago, I'd prefer we apply it to, um... _Odin,_ say. Odin is old. Anyone who is not as old as Odin is is _not_ old! 

There... we're all young, suddenly!! Don't you feel a lot better now!? _I_ do...


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

exile said:


> So maybe Odin/Wotan is a hangover from one of the non-IE peoples that the early Scandinavians came in contact with. Shamanism is a characteristic feature of a lot of high-latitude groups in the northern hemispherethe Inuits, Goldi, Samoyed, Chukchee and a bunch of others had themand it wouldn't be all that surprising to find one of their intercessor figures who regularly travels between the world of the living and the world of the dead showing up in the cosmology of the upstart invaders at one point. What's strange is that he wound up displacing Thor/Tyr as the boss of the outfit...


 
This is a very interesting idea.  I think I may have a parallel from India.  The Hindu religion has a number of layers.  It started with the Vedic gods imported by the Indo-Aryan migrants, but later they developed the Brahmanic tradition with its very important trinity - Brahma, Vishnu, Siva.  It is generally believed that Siva is an indigenous god absorbed into the Vedic/Hindu tradition.  He is quite different to his companions and bares many of the aspects one might associate with a shaman - all-seeing eye, ability to subdue beings from the otherworld, and such things.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> yeah yeah yeah, whatever.... I would STILL rather be Sun Wukong
> http://www.answers.com/sun wukong :uhyeah:
> 
> Impressive conversation there though about Odin/Woton, much I did not know and I thought I had a grasp on that stuff. Or at least I use to. Before I got old that is.


 
Yeah, I kinda like Wukong too.  Anyone who can become a Buddha through violent action has got my vote!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 10, 2007)

Fascinating thread and great posts by everyone.  There are so many to choose from where to start : Thor, Odan, Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Hercules, Shiva, etc.  I do not think that I could pick just one.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 10, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Fascinating thread and great posts by everyone. There are so many to choose from where to start : Thor, Odan, Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Hercules, Shiva, etc. I do not think that I could pick just one.


Ah! Janus it is.:ultracool 
Sean


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## Sukerkin (Apr 10, 2007)

Not wanting to get off-topic for the thread, *ToD*, but the Viking/Norse culture is actually quite different from the common conceptions of same.  

Going 'Viking' was not a bunch of toughs going out to crack skulls (tho' on the surface the differences to the observer may seem obscure ), it was a socially acceptible way for those of birth to prove themselves, prove their piety and garner some wealth at the same time.

As the trading side of things became the primary source of wealth (it is estmated that the island of Gotland was probably the richest place on Earth in it's heyday), the warrior cults turned on their own or hired out to foreign kings as mercenaries, some even showing up in the Middle East.

It's a fascinating story that has seemingly been drowned by the Roman 'backlight' and I'd actvely encourage investigation of it.  It puts a new spin on the Norse divinities that is worth seeing {mind you, some of your comments indicate a broader aquaintence with the subject than usual anyway :tup:}.

P.S. Many congrats to *Exile* on his survival to the entry of his seventh decade ... now we know where some of that wisdom comes from .


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> It's a fascinating story that has seemingly been drowned by the Roman 'backlight' and I'd actvely encourage investigation of it. It puts a new spin on the Norse divinities that is worth seeing.


 

In particular I suggest the Varangian Guard as a subject of research.  They were Norwegian warriors who served the Emperors in Byzantium.  They had a very fierce reputation and eventually were influencing, and choosing, who would be Emperor (in one incident they blinded a candidate they did not like, but because they were not allowed to touch the royal personage they did it by bringing a red hot iron very close to his eyes).  The most famous Varangian was Harold Hadrada who later became King of Norway and invaded England.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 10, 2007)

In my younger days, I surely would've chosen Bacchus to compliment my carefree, excessive lifestyle.

Now, however, I would have to go with a calmer, more contained figure out of the mists of time...such as Euterpe, the muse of lyric poetry or Jubal Harshaw, a curmudgeon.


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## exile (Apr 10, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Not wanting to get off-topic for the thread, *ToD*, but the Viking/Norse culture is actually quite different from the common conceptions of same.
> 
> Going 'Viking' was not a bunch of toughs going out to crack skulls (tho' on the surface the differences to the observer may seem obscure ), it was a socially acceptible way for those of birth to prove themselves, prove their piety and garner some wealth at the same time.
> 
> ...



Very cool view of the matter, S! Things are always a bit more complex and multilayered than they appear at first... well, _almost_ always...



Sukerkin said:


> P.S. Many congrats to *Exile* on his survival to the entry of his seventh decade ... now we know where some of that wisdom comes from .



Ogod, my seventh decade... it's scary when you put it like that!

A couple of post ago on this thread I made a deal with XS that no one would be regarded as `old' who wasn't at least as old as Odin. You're putting me in the position of having to demonstrate real commitment to that view of things...  

But thanks for the good wishes and kind words (although I have to say, I'd don't feel _nearly_ wise enough to justify entering my seventh decade, lol).



			
				Steel Tiger said:
			
		

> I think I may have a parallel from India. The Hindu religion has a number of layers. It started with the Vedic gods imported by the Indo-Aryan migrants, but later they developed the Brahmanic tradition with its very important trinity - Brahma, Vishnu, Siva. It is generally believed that Siva is an indigenous god absorbed into the Vedic/Hindu tradition. He is quite different to his companions and bares many of the aspects one might associate with a shaman - all-seeing eye, ability to subdue beings from the otherworld, and such things.



Ah, that _is_ interesting. It makes you wonder about just what it was about these pre-IE survivals that made them appealing to the conquering populations. Normally, in situations of conquest, it's winner-take-all, and the conquerers wouldnt want, you'd imagine, to offend their own gods who'd given them victory. But something about certain of the indigenous deities must do some important work for them... any ideas?
__________________


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

exile said:


> Ah, that _is_ interesting. It makes you wonder about just what it was about these pre-IE survivals that made them appealing to the conquering populations. Normally, in situations of conquest, it's winner-take-all, and the conquerers wouldnt want, you'd imagine, to offend their own gods who'd given them victory. But something about certain of the indigenous deities must do some important work for them... any ideas?
> __________________


 
This subject has been examined in depth with regard to the pre-IE religion of Europe.  Before the migration the focus of worship had been Earth goddesses, not the lovey-dovey things thought of today, but harsh, cold, scary beings, and their son/husband/protector.  These were beings you didn't want the attention of and sacrifices were made to get them to leave people alone.

In the Greaco-Roman pantheon some of these goddesses can still be seen.  Demeter, Persephone, Cybele, and Hecate (though Hecate may actually be from the Middle East) all demonstrate the harsh, but necessary, nature of the Earth.  

Incidentally, it was the cult of Cybele that became the basis of the Catholic Church's cult of the Holy Virgin.  The similarities between the cults is astounding.  Just another example of a hangover from another age I guess.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 10, 2007)

exile said:


> Very cool view of the matter, S! Things are always a bit more complex and multilayered than they appear at first... well, _almost_ always...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Exile we are all better off on MartialTalk due to your wisdom and the years that contributed to it.


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## exile (Apr 10, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> This subject has been examined in depth with regard to the pre-IE religion of Europe.  Before the migration the focus of worship had been Earth goddesses, not the lovey-dovey things thought of today, but harsh, cold, scary beings, and their son/husband/protector.  These were beings you didn't want the attention of and sacrifices were made to get them to leave people alone.



This is very much in line with various descriptions I've read of cults around what Robert Graves made famous under the rubric `the White Goddess'. RG may have been a bit of a nutter, but at least in his vision, the goddesses who were the focus of the pre-IE religious world, as you point out, weren't romanticized nurturers; their cults embodied the recognition that new life requires the death of old life. It was actually, on his view of things, a pretty bleak vision of things... I gather you're referring to that particular aspect of the very ancient goddess-worship that seems to have been prevalent in the ancient Mediterranean and elsewhere. Makes the late Roman Mithraic cult , the austere religion of the Roman soldiers, look positively warm-hearted by comparison...




Steel Tiger said:


> In the Greaco-Roman pantheon some of these goddesses can still be seen.  Demeter, Persephone, Cybele, and Hecate (though Hecate may actually be from the Middle East) all demonstrate the harsh, but necessary, nature of the Earth.



Yes, that business about Hecate doesn't surprise me in the least... she seems to represent a _really_ ancient sublayer of religious practice. Very scary, actually... and again, you wonder what it was that led the ancient Greeks to welcome her into their catalogue of divinities, rather than suppressing her worship. Maybe she was sufficiently formidable to _scare_ them, enough to want to kind of placate her by legitimizing her worship? I could imagine that...




Steel Tiger said:


> Incidentally, it was the cult of Cybele that became the basis of the Catholic Church's cult of the Holy Virgin.  The similarities between the cults is astounding.  Just another example of a hangover from another age I guess.



That's a very plausible connection. There's plenty of evidence that the Cybelline and similar cults enjoyed an unbroken popularity over many centuries in the eastern Mediterranean, and early Christianity was very adept at incorporating popular pagan deities and semideities into its own pantheon of sacred personae. Very pragmaticthe locals are fanatically devoted to Clothloch the weasel demon; you can either fight them bitterly to force them to worship St. George, or you can simply enroll St. Clothius in the official hagiography, and voilà, everyone is happythey keep Clothloch and you have a new congregation. Simple!



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Exile we are all better off on MartialTalk due to your wisdom and the years that contributed to it.



Brian... I don't know what to say... I appreciate your kind words, but I definitely get the feeling that I get far more wisdom _from_ MT than I contribute to it. That's what makes it so addictive... simply log on and the equivalent of person-centuries of MA experience and all-around sharp thinking is there on tap... four cheers for the Internet, eh?! :asian:


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 10, 2007)

exile said:


> This is very much in line with various descriptions I've read of cults around what Robert Graves made famous under the rubric `the White Goddess'. RG may have been a bit of a nutter, but at least in his vision, the goddesses who were the focus of the pre-IE religious world, as you point out, weren't romanticized nurturers; their cults embodied the recognition that new life requires the death of old life. It was actually, on his view of things, a pretty bleak vision of things... I gather you're referring to that particular aspect of the very ancient goddess-worship that seems to have been prevalent in the ancient Mediterranean and elsewhere. Makes the late Roman Mithraic cult , the austere religion of the Roman soldiers, look positively warm-hearted by comparison...


 
Yes its that pig sacrificing, fascinated with blood, don't leave the house at night aspect.




exile said:


> Yes, that business about Hecate doesn't surprise me in the least... she seems to represent a _really_ ancient sublayer of religious practice. Very scary, actually... and again, you wonder what it was that led the ancient Greeks to welcome her into their catalogue of divinities, rather than suppressing her worship. Maybe she was sufficiently formidable to _scare_ them, enough to want to kind of placate her by legitimizing her worship? I could imagine that...


 
It is possible that this particular goddes embodied or guarded something that was as important to the new culture as it was to the old and had a collection of mysteries and traditions that could not be replaced.





exile said:


> That's a very plausible connection. There's plenty of evidence that the Cybelline and similar cults enjoyed an unbroken popularity over many centuries in the eastern Mediterranean, and early Christianity was very adept at incorporating popular pagan deities and semideities into its own pantheon of sacred personae. Very pragmatic&#8212;the locals are fanatically devoted to Clothloch the weasel demon; you can either fight them bitterly to force them to worship St. George, or you can simply enroll St. Clothius in the official hagiography, and voilà, everyone is happy&#8212;they keep Clothloch and you have a new congregation. Simple!


 
Oh yes, very pragmatic.  Did you know that the Church even had Buddha listed as one of its saints for a while?




exile said:


> Brian... I don't know what to say... I appreciate your kind words, but I definitely get the feeling that I get far more wisdom _from_ MT than I contribute to it. That's what makes it so addictive... simply log on and the equivalent of person-centuries of MA experience and all-around sharp thinking is there on tap... four cheers for the Internet, eh?! :asian:


 
Hip hip hoorah!!!


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> It is possible that this particular goddes embodied or guarded something that was as important to the new culture as it was to the old and had a collection of mysteries and traditions that could not be replaced.



Yes. That has the ring of truth. Hard to see why else one would do such a thing, with all one's own minor deities demanding a share of the spoils...



Steel Tiger said:


> Oh yes, very pragmatic.  Did you know that the Church even had Buddha listed as one of its saints for a while?



Buddha? St. Gautema? Boy, that takes _nerve_. 

One of my favorite books is a slim volume translated from German called _Bach and the Heavenly Choir_, about a musical Pope, a violinist, who desperately tries, against opposition from the Lutheran Church and his own cardinals, to have Johann Sebastian Bach beatified as a saint of the Roman Catholic Church. But St. Gautema takes the cake for sheer _brass!_


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Yeah, I kinda like Wukong too. Anyone who can become a Buddha through violent action has got my vote!


 
True, but that whole trapped under a mountain thing may not be to much fun, but heck the rest would make it all worth it.


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> True, but that whole trapped under a mountain thing may not be to much fun, but heck the rest would make it all worth it.


 
And being fed iron balls and liquid copper!  No thanks!!


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> And being fed iron balls and liquid copper! No thanks!!


 
aah but look at the fun he had and ALL the deities he annoyed


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> aah but look at the fun he had and ALL the deities he annoyed


 
His ability to annoy was beautifully portrayed in the Japanese television series from the late seventies or early eighties.  You may not have seen it as it was only released in two countries outside Japan - Britain and Australia, but it can be found on DVD.

Oh, I remebered the actual title given to him by Buddha, "Buddha of Victorious in Strife".  That's a pretty cool title.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> His ability to annoy was beautifully portrayed in the Japanese television series from the late seventies or early eighties. You may not have seen it as it was only released in two countries outside Japan - Britain and Australia, but it can be found on DVD.
> 
> Oh, I remebered the actual title given to him by Buddha, "Buddha of Victorious in Strife". That's a pretty cool title.


 
Turn on the TV in Beijing and you WILL find a movie about the Monkey King and there is even a series about Sun Wukong. I even have a couple DVDs I picked up there.


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Turn on the TV in Beijing and you WILL find a movie about the Monkey King and there is even a series about Sun Wukong. I even have a couple DVDs I picked up there.



Guys, are you talking about someone from the _Journey to the West_ epic?


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> Guys, are you talking about someone from the _Journey to the West_ epic?


 
You betcha!  Sun Wukong, the Iron Monkey, the Monkey King, or just plain Monkey.  Have staff will thump!!


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> You betcha!  Sun Wukong, the Iron Monkey, the Monkey King, or just plain Monkey.  Have staff will thump!!



That's right... it's coming back. He got this staff from some malign undersea demon/spirit (I think of the guy as a big crocodile, for some reason) and it can become, like, supermassive and belt the stuffing out of various enemies as need be? 

I also dimly recall something about peaches of immortality... or am I making that up? Part of a bribe attempt on the part of the Jade Emperor? Am I warm... even a little?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> That's right... it's coming back. He got this staff from some malign undersea demon/spirit (I think of the guy as a big crocodile, for some reason) and it can become, like, supermassive and belt the stuffing out of various enemies as need be?
> 
> I also dimly recall something about peaches of immortality... or am I making that up? Part of a bribe attempt on the part of the Jade Emperor? Am I warm... even a little?


 
What the HECK are you talking about :uhyeah:

Just kidding, yup you got it that be the guy.... err... or the monkey


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What the HECK are you talking about :uhyeah:
> 
> Just kidding, yup you got it that be the guy.... err... or the monkey


 I'll never forget the line from that movie in English translation, "We love you Iron Monkey!"


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## Steel Tiger (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> That's right... it's coming back. He got this staff from some malign undersea demon/spirit (I think of the guy as a big crocodile, for some reason) and it can become, like, supermassive and belt the stuffing out of various enemies as need be?
> 
> I also dimly recall something about peaches of immortality... or am I making that up? Part of a bribe attempt on the part of the Jade Emperor? Am I warm... even a little?


 
That's pretty good, but Wukong stole all the peaches when he found out the honoured position he had been given by the Jade Emperor was actually a stableboy.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> That's pretty good, but Wukong stole all the peaches when he found out the honoured position he had been given by the Jade Emperor was actually a stableboy.


 
And then the fun begins... that is if you are Sun Wukong


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> What the HECK are you talking about :uhyeah:
> 
> Just kidding, yup you got it that be the guy.... err... or the monkey



He was one cool monkey, I remember... not sure where I read it... I never actually got through the whole _J to the W_ but I think I read a kind of watered down condensed version of the story... and I saw some kind of Chinese animated version of the story too. The big boys in the Jade Emperor's court were all indignant because he'd made himself immortal, or something like that... he gets trapped in a furnace at one point, right?... but in the end, nothing can damage him... Yeah, I can see how he would be a _very_ appealing figure to a martial artist!


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'll never forget the line from that movie in English translation, "We love you Iron Monkey!"


 
That sounds very familiar. 

However I did not hear that in the TV series in Beijing, but then I did not understand MOST of what was said in the TV series in Beijing... but I still watched it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> He was one cool monkey, I remember... not sure where I read it... I never actually got through the whole _J to the W_ but I think I read a kind of watered down condensed version of the story... and I saw some kind of Chinese animated version of the story too. The big boys in the Jade Emperor's court were all indignant because he'd made himself immortal, or something like that... he gets trapped in a furnace at one point, right?... but in the end, nothing can damage him... Yeah, I can see how he would be a _very_ appealing figure to a martial artist!


 
I actually had a very good translation in my hand when I was in Beijing and I planned on buying it but got distracted by a couple other books and sat it down and of course walked out without it. And being very caught up in Beijing I did not realize I forgot to buy it until the night before we left.

Oh well there is always 2008, I know where the store is and I plan on returning to pick it up, if the book is still there.


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I actually had a very good translation in my hand when I was in Beijing and I planned on buying it but got distracted by a couple other books and sat it down and of course walked out without it. And being very caught up in Beijing I did not realize I forgot to buy it until the night before we left.



Doesn't it drive you _crazy_ when something like that happens? 



Xue Sheng said:


> Oh well there is always 2008, I know where the store is and I plan on returning to pick it up, if the book is still there.



Do you go there every year to visit your in-laws? Nice, if you can get to do that! I earnestly hope that they have a copy there waiting for you when you return, XS...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> Doesn't it drive you crazy when something like that happens?



Yes it does, and we had to be at the airport WAY to early the next day for me to get all the way back to teh bookstore



exile said:


> Do you go there every year to visit your in-laws? Nice, if you can get to do that! I earnestly hope that they have a copy there waiting for you when you return, XS...


 
Well that was the plan but the Olympics kind of got in the way. The entire place is a veritable construction zone and it is getting more crowded every day. Just think of NYC times about 4 make it a construction zone and you get the picture. 

We went in 2006 and we are skipping 2007 and not going until the Olympics are over in 2008, or at least that is the plan right now

.


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes it does, and we had to be at the airport WAY to early the next day for me to get all the way back to teh bookstore



It's like they set it up so you can't win...





Xue Sheng said:


> Well that was the plan but the Olympics kind of got in the way. The entire place is a veritable construction zone and it is getting more crowded every day. Just think of NYC times about 4 make it a construction zone and you get the picture.



That's a little bit what Seoul seemed to be like when I was there a few years ago. I can't get over the _scale_ of some of these Asian cities...



Xue Sheng said:


> We went in 2006 and we are skipping 2007 and not going until the Olympics are over in 2008, or at least that is the plan right now.


 
Smart timing! The Olympics are going to be... unreal. Everything else will probably grind to a sickening halt for the two weeks they're on.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 11, 2007)

exile said:


> Smart timing! The Olympics are going to be... unreal. Everything else will probably grind to a sickening halt for the two weeks they're on.


 
It will be interesting to hear about... by phone...from far far away.


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## exile (Apr 11, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> It will be interesting to hear about... by phone...from far far away.



Yes... exactly... my wife's family is from Vancouver, and we plan to hear about the 1010 Winter Olympics in exactly the same way.


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