# That's not my technique!? Who taught you that?!



## Si-Je (Aug 4, 2009)

Why is it that Wing Chun lineages have such different techiques but it's still Wing Chun. (WT/WC/VT, etc....)  ?

What techniques do you do in your lineage that other lineages don't do, or do differently? Why? Whats the philosophy or theory or "concept" behind it? Please share. I really believe that if Wing Chun people shared more with eachother, then it would truely evolve.


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## bully (Aug 5, 2009)

I was going to post something about this yesterday in another thread but here is more relevant...cheers Sije.

OK the WC I was taught and am still taught most of the tech/terms are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun_terms

Ok I know its Wiki and not the law but these are pretty much all I have heard. Perhaps my level is not high enough for some of the terms mentioned on here if you know what I mean. For example things from 2nd/3rd/Dummy forms etc so I wont have heard of them.

Some things mentioned on here I have no idea what they are, not sure if it is WT stuff or not, or just different lineages of WC??

So what is the difference between WT and WC then?


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## mook jong man (Aug 5, 2009)

I think its because of too many bloody chinese dialects.
I think someone should come up with Wing Chun for gweilo's.
In simple words that we can understand .

Thus Bong Sau would become K.F.C  Arm ( similar to shape of a chicken wing )

Tan Sau would become " Gimme a dollar arm " ( palm up deflection , similar to a street person demanding money from you)

In my system the Fook Sau would be performed with one finger extended towards the opponent , this would then become the " Fook You " and would be required to be spoken in a Scottish accent.


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## yak sao (Aug 5, 2009)

Actually we refer to tan sau as "pizza carrying hand" and bong sau as "boing sau" to denote its springiness.
Like they say "fook em if they can't take a jut"


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 5, 2009)

bully said:


> . . . .OK the WC I was taught and am still taught most of the tech/terms are here:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_chun_terms
> 
> Ok I know its Wiki and not the law but these are pretty much all I have heard.


 
Those are pretty much the terms we use to describe the hand positions.  They are descriptive of what the hand position does.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I think its because of too many bloody chinese dialects.
> I think someone should come up with Wing Chun for gweilo's.
> In simple words that we can understand .
> 
> ...


It's interesting that you post this.  In BJJ we do exactly that.  Mata Leon, Hadaka Jime or Rear Naked Choke... all the same thing.  The problem with this is (as explained to me by a longtime judoka friend), if I go to Japan to train with guys there, or down to Brazil, I only know the English phrase.  If, however, there is consistency throughout the art, regardless of locale, even if I don't speak Japanese or Portuguese, I'll understand that a hadaka jime is a hadaka jime.


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## geezer (Aug 5, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Why is it that Wing Chun lineages have such different techiques but it's still Wing Chun. (WT/WC/VT, etc....) ?


 
In some cases the different spellings indicate no more than the preference of a particular instructor or association. In other cases the spelling indicates a distinct difference in approach. For example, _Wing Tsun_ or "WT" was coined by Leung Ting to distinguish his own system from other brances of "WC" in the Yip Man lineage. A number of his students have broken away from his association and gone off on their own, but have retained the initials WT to indicate that they share the basic methods of the Leung Ting branch. One such student is Emin Boztepe and his Wing Tzun system. 

The differences in techniques between different branches can be pretty significant, even within the Yip Man lineage. When you consider some of the more distantly related branches, such as Weng Chun, you are really talking about a different style altogether. As far as why this is, I can only say that I don't see it as any different from the divergent branches you find in any other martial art such as the many ryu of Karate and so forth.



Si-Je said:


> What techniques do you do in your lineage that other lineages don't do, or do differently? Why? Whats the philosophy or theory or "concept" behind it? Please share. I really believe that if Wing Chun people shared more with eachother, then it would truely evolve.


 
The most distinguishing features of the WT system are probably the _stance_, the emphasis on _springy energy_, and its highly organized teaching program, especially its _"sections" of chi-sau training_. I could touch on these briefly, but beyond that, I believe that you really have to work with someone physically to understand what they are talking about.

The WT version of _yee gee kim yeung ma_ or "character 2" stance is formed with the feet at about shoulder width apart and pointing inwards, with very strong _adduction,_ or a sqeezing-inwards of the knees. This adduction is countered by rolling the pelvis forward under the body. The two positions work in opposition creating a gentle isometric tension, with the legs being taught and springy like a bow.

The _stance turning_ is done on the center of the foot, shifting your weight from side to side as you turn, and turning only one foot at a time. This unique method of turning allows the body to stay firmly anchored on the stationary, weight-bearing foot, as the other foot is turned. The 100% weight shift is advantageous in that it moves your body mass the maximum amount possible without taking a step, swinging your body out of the way of your opponent's attack. 

_Advancing step_ is also done with all your weight kept back over the rear foot, even when stepping forward. In this case the objective is to keep the front foot free to attack and defend at any instant, without having to shift your weight and telegraph your intent. Also, by keeping your front leg unweighted, it is not vulnerable to sweeps.

The details of how to actually perform the mechanics of these steps is pretty involved and darned near impoosible to discuss with written words alone. But my first sifu, Leung Ting, felt that these particular points were so important that he made us all work on them for hours and hours every day for about a week straight, before he would consider teaching us anything else. And all of us were already experienced in other branches of "WC".


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## Si-Je (Aug 5, 2009)

Well, what makes me wonder is that I've noticed a few techniques that aren't taught in other lineages. Like Sifu Fung's system teaches Chit sau and Dai sau. I haven't seen anyone elese that does these two hand techniques.  And I wonder, why?

For instance, maybe they were taken out of someone's lineage because of personal preference of the teacher or are these techniques totally unique to the systems the come from?

And Sifu Emin I've seen use a (phoenix eye punch?) in his newer videos. Where he extends the foreknuckle out a bit from the other nuckles. Is this new, I wonder or has it been in the system and I've just not seen it yet?

The terminology is going to be different because of the language thing, but I wondered why some techniques are missing or seem to be "added" to other systems. Wing Chun only came from a very limited number of founders and students. It's just curious to me that there are so many differences in techniques.

p.s. very funny the whole fook sau thing.  Cute guys.


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## yak sao (Aug 5, 2009)

The phoenix eye fist is in WT's version of the Biu Tze form.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 6, 2009)

Under the FFMAA, the phoenix eye or ginger fist can be used in place of the hook punch in the Biu Jee form also. So it is not new to WC. 

As for chit sau and dai sau, we do not use the terms and I'm not sure what hand positions they may be. They may go by a different name in our lineage. As a general rule, chinese teachers tend to use a descriptive name to the hand postions, so it pretty much describes what the hand postition does as opposed to what it looks like. Of course, bong sau is the exception, with most people using wing arm as the definition. But I've come to find the translation of bong sau is really flanking hand.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.WingChunGlossary


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## geezer (Aug 6, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Well, what makes me wonder is that I've noticed a few techniques that aren't taught in other lineages. Like Sifu Fung's system teaches Chit sau and Dai sau. I haven't seen anyone elese that does these two hand techniques... And Sifu Emin I've seen use a (phoenix eye punch?) in his newer videos. Where he extends the foreknuckle out a bit from the other knuckles...



Yak's right about the "phoenix eye". This is found in the so-called "Five Thunder-Punches" sequence of the WT Biu Tze set. And these things do evolve. Leung Ting added the thunder-punches to the set in the early 90's. (They were not included in the first version I learned). I do know that the phoenix-eye is a common technique in some other branches of WC and in southern "short-bridge" styles in general. In WT it is considered an upper-level, specialized technique since it is only directed at specific, "soft" targets. Perhaps Emin shows it off a bit more than some other instructors?

Regarding _dai-sau_: If I understand what _dai-sau_ is, based on Mook's description and some videoclips, I believe it is similar, if not identical to a technique we use in WT that we also call "fook-sau" (not the same as fook-sau in SNT or chi-sau). This other WT "fook sau" is a technique with the arm partially extended, like bong sau but with the palm downward and elbow angled slightly outward. It is a bit like the position your arm rolls through in chi-sau as you flow from bong-sau down to tan sau. This technique is very useful in countering wide hooking punches. Leung Ting taught it in WT here in the US, but I've not seen it as much in pictures and videos of the European WT.

Finally, I'm not familiar with the term "_chit sau_". If you can describe it, I would be glad to tell you if I know of anything like it in WT. Also, I'd like to get Mook to weigh in on this, since he's got  high level experience in the Tsui  Sheung Tin-Jim Fung lineage. Hey Mook, did you guys ever use the "phoenix-eye" or  extended top-knuckle fist in your training?


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## mook jong man (Aug 6, 2009)

geezer said:


> Finally, I'm not familiar with the term "_chit sau_". If you can describe it, I would be glad to tell you if I know of anything like it in WT. Also, I'd like to get Mook to weigh in on this, since he's got high level experience in the Tsui Sheung Tin-Jim Fung lineage. Hey Mook, did you guys ever use the "phoenix-eye" or extended top-knuckle fist in your training?


 
The Chit Sau is what we call the motions in the very first part of SLT where your hands go down and forward at an angle and cross over at the wrists .
But in application one hand does the Chit sau while the other punches
 In that video I put up you could see the girl deflecting the punches to the stomach using  Chit Sau and punch.

It uses a sawing , cutting type of action across the wrist of the opponent , you make contact with the edge of your hand and spread his force part of the way up your arm.
Nope we didn't have the phoenix -eye punch , nothing as exotic as that I'm afraid just your normal punch and palm strikes.


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## Nabakatsu (Aug 6, 2009)

Your chit sau is our side tan sau so it sounds, when we are pushed into the position that's what our side tan sau will look like. Interesting.


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## Tensei85 (Aug 7, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> The Chit Sau is what we call the motions in the very first part of SLT where your hands go down and forward at an angle and cross over at the wrists .
> But in application one hand does the Chit sau while the other punches
> In that video I put up you could see the girl deflecting the punches to the stomach using  Chit Sau and punch.
> 
> ...



Chit Sau?? Question how does it sound? Does it sound more like "jit" Or do you know the characters?

Sorry, to ask but I'm having a hard time understanding the meaning...

Thanks,


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## Tensei85 (Aug 7, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I think its because of too many bloody chinese dialects.
> I think someone should come up with Wing Chun for gweilo's.
> In simple words that we can understand .
> 
> ...



I think that's a good point, however in America or abroad there are a lot of Wing Chun practitioners that can understand the concepts of the techniques by the Chinese translation as handed down from there "Sifu"

So for those that understand the Chinese language it becomes a must to use the translation or for me personally I don't feel I could grasp the meaning without the proper characters. 

For example I've heard "Wing hand" or slapping block or many other variations to me is more complicated because they are categorizing them based on how they look or function as opposed to the concept of what they are.

So for me its easier to understand &#33152;&#25163; or &#25293;&#25163; instead of the above examples. I think there should be a happy medium, because personally if I only know the Chinese terms than how can I translate it to the non-Chinese speaking students and then if they only speak Chinese how can I transmit properly to those students just the same.

Unfortunately I don't think there's an exact formula or answer for those problems I guess that's why its so challenging being a Sifu.


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## Si-Je (Aug 7, 2009)

Nabakatsu said:


> Your chit sau is our side tan sau so it sounds, when we are pushed into the position that's what our side tan sau will look like. Interesting.


 
As I understand, chit sau is taught in place of the WT gan sau. (whatever it's called, where you "chop" the hand downward to defelect a stomach punch)

Instead of pushing to the side chit sau "chops" forward using the meat of the hand to push/slide up the forearm of the uppercut or low punch, thus while stepping forward can trap the opponent's arm against their body. And it hurts like hitting your funny bone when someone does it just right on your punching arm. ouch. The WT low deflection usually gets my wrist banged up. But, he didnt' really teach me the WT low deflection, he focused on the Fung chit sau.

Dai sau is much different than the fuk sau off a hook punch. yes, the elbow is out a bit more in fuk sau but your deflection doesn't come from making contact with your wrist to the bicept or arm of the hooking punch.
Your elbow and with equal pressure from wrist to forearm "shears" the hooking punch as you step forward. The elbow covers your "temple" and protects quite effeciently any type of hooking punch. Whether they "Jerry Springer Windmill punch" at you, do a haymaker, a boxers hook, etc. The only thing it doesn't always completely cover is the "ghetto hook" as I call it. Dai sau's more of like a "chicken wing" motion. (I used to tell the kiddos to throw up that dau sau like it's "nothin' but a chicken wing." lol... hood saying: "it ain't nothin' but a chicken wing." nevermind. but you see what I mean.)

Where the hook puch is followed by a severe bend in the hooking punchers elbow to go around an arm. (boxers do this sometimes to get the shoulder and hip really behind the hook) Thus, when you feel this, you flow from dai sau to bong sau. I've found that starting out in dai sau makes my bong sau better. More forward force, structure, and I don't anticipate or force the bong sau. Besides, alot of the time dai sau is more than sufficient than pivoting and rotating with bong sau, takes less time and when it's not enough bong sau is centimeters away.

Another example of a new hand technique I've been shown recently, is a different type of tan sau. Where the palm is down, the elbow slightly bent and this is used against a straight punch high or low. very interesting. And it seems to work well with sound structure. Maybe it has a different name, I don't know. But they teach this instead of the usual tan sau with palm up. It makes it simpler to latch too, because your palm is already down. Their defense against a stomach punch is the same arm movement. Like a "cross between" chit sau and WT's type of gan sau.  
Just another example of some different techniques from a different WC system that I've never seen from other styles.


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## mook jong man (Aug 8, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Chit Sau?? Question how does it sound? Does it sound more like "jit" Or do you know the characters?
> 
> Sorry, to ask but I'm having a hard time understanding the meaning...
> 
> Thanks,


 
Might even be Jit , if you tell me the meaning I might be able to remember it.


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## Tensei85 (Aug 10, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Might even be Jit , if you tell me the meaning I might be able to remember it.



Jit (Jie) or Jeet would be to intercept. &#25130;


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## mook jong man (Aug 11, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Jit (Jie) or Jeet would be to intercept. &#25130;


 
Thats the one I remember now .
Thanks Tensei.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 11, 2009)

You teach 'jeet' sau as a hand technique?  We teach it as a concept, to jeet or intercept using available hand position like biu sau, biu jee, yat chi kune, tan, bong, etc.  Any hand position that can be used to intercept or meet an attack is jeet sau.


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## Tensei85 (Aug 11, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thats the one I remember now .
> Thanks Tensei.



Sweet! I understand the meaning now thanks for the clarifications Mook.


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## MattB (Aug 16, 2009)

I think that's a good point, however in America or abroad there are a lot of Wing Chun practitioners that can understand the concepts of the techniques by the Chinese translation as handed down from there "Sifu"

So for those that understand the Chinese language it becomes a must to use the translation or for me personally I don't feel I could grasp the meaning without the proper characters. 

For example I've heard "Wing hand" or slapping block or many other variations to me is more complicated because they are categorizing them based on how they look or function as opposed to the concept of what they are.

So for me its easier to understand &#33152;&#25163; or &#25293;&#25163; instead of the above examples. I think there should be a happy medium, because personally if I only know the Chinese terms than how can I translate it to the non-Chinese speaking students and then if they only speak Chinese how can I transmit properly to those students just the same.

Unfortunately I don't think there's an exact formula or answer for those problems I guess that's why its so challenging being a Sifu.[/quote]

 I agree with you to a point, but in chinese, names of positions  can offten  be descriptions of them. &#33152;&#25163; bang shou is wing hand and &#25293;&#25163;pai shou is slap hand. Close to the Chinese meanings. (Sorry but I only know Mandarin Chinese soI dont know how to pronounce it in Cantonese). But even for Chinese speakers it can be a problem. it can be hard for a HK sifu to teach in Beijing cause of dialects. And characters wont always work due to the traditional vs simplified problem.   
 Most spelling deferences are also just anglonizing of chinese and rough discriptions at best. Pepole do the best they can as far as making it sound as close to Chinese when you read it.  
Sorry to everyone for geting off topic here


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