# why do beginners question there instructors



## terryl965 (Sep 5, 2004)

_*I have been reading other post topics and see where alot of beginners are questioning why the instructors won't give private to beginners and why they can't come play with the big boys. My question to you on this forum if you are a instructor or not when you was coming up through the ranks where you allow to question your instructor,second guest him or did you do what they ask you to do. I know me, I just did what they told me for they knew more than me. Please try and keep on topic, for me this is becoming a serious problem in today MA world. not at my school but at alot of school I go and visit. Last if a student talks back to you in a bad way during class how would you handle the stituation in front of the other students. GOD BLESS AMERICA*_  :mp5: :flame: :idunno: :whip:


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## ppko (Sep 5, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> _*I have been reading other post topics and see where alot of beginners are questioning why the instructors won't give private to beginners and why they can't come play with the big boys. My question to you on this forum if you are a instructor or not when you was coming up through the ranks where you allow to question your instructor,second guest him or did you do what they ask you to do. I know me, I just did what they told me for they knew more than me. Please try and keep on topic, for me this is becoming a serious problem in today MA world. not at my school but at alot of school I go and visit. Last if a student talks back to you in a bad way during class how would you handle the stituation in front of the other students. GOD BLESS AMERICA*_ :mp5: :flame: :idunno: :whip:


I have always been able to question my instructor and welcome questions in my dojo. I have always did what they have told me to do but if I ever doubted the technique than I would question it and I still do, most of the times my doubts are quickly turned to beliefs. But if you do have to question your instructor do so in a respectful manner, or you may bel lying down for quite a long time, or kicked out of the school.  And finally if a student talks back they are out of the school without question.


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## Brother John (Sep 5, 2004)

There is a HUGE, marked difference between asking questions and second guessing.
Questions: Very good.
Second guessing: Very Bad.

my thoughts
Your Brother
John


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## ppko (Sep 5, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> There is a HUGE, marked difference between asking questions and second guessing.
> Questions: Very good.
> Second guessing: Very Bad.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 5, 2004)

See my thread in the Kenpo section - Teaching.  KT


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## GAB (Sep 5, 2004)

Hi.
There is a very good article on sanjosekenpo.com about teaching or why they cant (some of the black belts)

It is under articles and is titled "Why can't they teach?" It is written by Dr. Sumner, 8th Dan in the Tracy's Kenpo.

He says simply, teaching is a science just like Kenpo.

I found it very interesting.

Regards, Gary


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 5, 2004)

Feeling is believing.  Fortunately whenever I don't understand my instructor has been able to demonstrate. I also find that frequently when a student asks questions or doesn't understand, others in the class also didn't understand.  For me, the problem is when a student continually interupts the flow of class. With these students I try to structure time to solve the problem

Jeff


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## sifu nick (Sep 5, 2004)

I always welcome questions when I teach. Sometimes I might forget to mention some particular part of a technique so I think it is good when the student asks.


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## Ceicei (Sep 5, 2004)

My instructor has always allowed and encouraged questions.  When I ask why about some motions, he shows me what happens when done that way and what happens when not, so I see/feel the difference and understand the reasons.  

- Ceicei


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 5, 2004)

Americans and Westerners tend to be very analytical people. We do not grow up with a "do not question your Instructor" mentality, unlike many Orientals. Oriental culture is very different-different influences and mentalities. To question your elders or superiors is considered disrespectful and rude.
I remember my Instructor telling me years ago that when he first joined Tae Kwon Do, he thought he had joined a cult. His Instructor told him flat out "do not question me". Much like Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid telling Daniel-san "I say, you do-no questions!" 
Even today, there are a limited amount of questions I will tolerate from students. I will answer (usually) "How?" questions when appropriate. I will often answer "Why?" questions with "no questions-just practice." When the time comes, I will tell them or they will understand for themselves.
While curiosity is to be encouraged, I cannot allow classes to devolve into Western-style analysis sessions. There must be a certain amount of just listening to your instructor. Similarly, parents do not have to justify their every action to kids. They must be trusted to make the right decisions. Children will hopefully understand eventually why their parents made the decisions they did.
I know this attitude undoubtably clashes with the western-style "I can ask my Instructor anything" mentality of many posters, but I don't teach western style. I teach traditional style as much as possible.


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## Paul B (Sep 5, 2004)

Hi All!


I personally invite questions,I don't mind breaking the technique down into minute particles of motion. The "second guessing" thing drives me up a wall.
A teacher of mine once said,"My mind can't tell your body what it needs to know." 

So,in short, my pontification on the subtleties of technique,will do you no good,so quit yer yappin' and start training!:whip:


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## The Kai (Sep 5, 2004)

There have allready been some excellrnt posts on this topic.

I think another reason for the questions and second guessing is th e new students ego. I have allways welcomed questions, but it does get out of hand, sometimes.

How about a white belt with the WHAT_IF's 
Or the Newbie with "Well I always fought this a way(Especiallty when you can see he never fought any a way)
Todd


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## Ceicei (Sep 5, 2004)

"Why can't the beginners play with the 'big boys'?"

This issue is rarely a problem because the beginning, intermediate, and advanced students have their own classes.

- Ceicei


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## Paul B (Sep 5, 2004)

LOL, we don't really get so much of the "why" questions. The "newbies" look over and see big breakfalls and want no part of it 

Ego is definitely a factor, as in "MA are easy to learn,I could do it from a book, right?" uuummmm.....


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 5, 2004)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> "Why can't the beginners play with the 'big boys'?"
> 
> This issue is rarely a problem because the beginning, intermediate, and advanced students have their own classes.
> 
> - Ceicei



Ceicei,

This is true, yet for those cases when it is a small club and all the students are in the same class, I explain that the beginners would not gain anything from the "Big Boy" Work out or pratice. If a Black Belt or senior ranks works with the Beginner and the Senior is doing or practicing their timing and skills the beginner does not get a chance to move, and would not learn. Yet when everyone works on the the basics or fundamentals, then working with the senior helps them learn at a teaching pace or at a beginner pace.


As to questions, these are always good. Even wondering if something will work, which some will consider second guessing. Our club has always then demonstrated that it will work if done properly by someone. Yes, this may be consider not good pratice, yet most stay, for they have seen or felt it work, when they tried to resist. 

Just my thoughts


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 5, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> There have allready been some excellrnt posts on this topic.
> 
> I think another reason for the questions and second guessing is th e new students ego. I have allways welcomed questions, but it does get out of hand, sometimes.
> 
> ...


I like what if's.  I usually say "well lets see" , as I say feeling is believing.

Jeff


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## Paul B (Sep 5, 2004)

"What if's"

I am taking this as a "what if the attacker does this,what should I do" kind of of thing.

My answer is and always will be "pay attention". It's harder than it seems


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## Lisa (Sep 5, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I like what if's. I usually say "well lets see" , as I say feeling is believing.
> 
> Jeff


LOL... you sound like my instructor .


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## TigerWoman (Sep 5, 2004)

I agree that there has to be order to class.  Questions should be limited to the how and limited and respectful of the instructor.  He doesn't have to answer why - the training provides the why.  I have seen teenagers who go on excessively talking, asking questions but more for trying to get attention for themselves.  I remember sitting in "lectures" alot.  When something gets out of control, like talking noise, there was a lecture. Or there was a talk after class with the master about proper behavior.  It seems this is a problem of young adults more who question their elders, thinking that they know more somehow and want to press their viewpoint.  They are not teaching however, they are beginners there to learn.  That is one of the requirements of a student, be receptive to learning and that may mean shutting up and do what is asked without "argumentative questions" which are not respectful of the teacher. TW


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 5, 2004)

1. Because Americans often confuse having an opinion with having something to say.

2. Because people, especially young men and established professional-class men, are unwilling to admit that martial arts training intimitidates and scares them.

3. Because a lot of contemporary martial arts (just like always, I suspect) has promulgated a lot of dumbass behavior. Then--as was mentioned elsewhere--there's the whole male ego thing.

4. After a lot of missteps, which I of course continue to make, I pretty much try to run group classes so that students can't get enough extra air to ask a lotta dumbass questions.


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## Corporal Hicks (Sep 5, 2004)

Ok, sorry If I get the thread wrong here, but whats second guessing? Also, you mention about students talking back, well what if the Student is openly crictising a technique? How would you deal with that? My instructor has had a situation with a student constantly nick-picking at techniques, even the style of fighting itself (Tae Kwon Do) and not to mention when it came to patterns lol (worse than me)! Would continuely cricitising the art get you kicked out?


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## Aaron Little (Sep 5, 2004)

If students are not allowed to question or "second guess" what is taught then how can an art evolve? It is my belief that it is through challenging questions that growth occurs. Growth both for the individual and for the art as a whole should be our ultimate goal as teachers/coaches.

Sometimes there is a better way to do something. Many times that way is discovered due to a "what if" question in class.

I expect those who choose to train with me to question everything that we do. It is through this questioning that students learn to trust their own skills. I never want a student to just take my word for something. If, heaven forbid, they are ever in a situation where their life depends on their skills, it is my hope that they have questioned and tested those skills for themselves. Not just taken my word that things work. 

The goals of my students nor myself are not served by the preservation of any specific tradition. It is the never ending quest for the improvement of skill that drives us. Not skill in a specific move or technique but the skill that allows one to physically impose his will on another. Whether that be in a self-defense situation or competition.


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## bignick (Sep 5, 2004)

one of my instructors has a great way of dealing with "what if" questions...he'll demonstrate what happens...with the person who asked the question being uke...

my favorite story is the first time he started teaching the self-defense class at the college i go to...there were 3 big football players that took the class(i'm assuming they needed a credit to stay eligible..)...

so he's going through some techniques and different situations and the football players are practicing anything...he goes over and encourages them to participate...one of the guys is like, "Honestly, with athletes like us...what could a little old guy like you do..."

so he says..."ok, ok...well just go for a grab or something and we'll see..." so one guy grabs his wrist and he nails him with a kote gaeshi (type of wristlock for the non judo/jujitsu people) that he described as "out of this world"....the football player hits the ground and as he turns around he sees the other two guys nicely going through the excersizes...and that settled that...

this is a bit more extreme than most cases...mainly it discourages only dumb, "what if" questions...contrary to popular belief...there are dumb questions...


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## MichiganTKD (Sep 5, 2004)

And this is what separates a western approach from a traditional approach. There is nothing wrong with having a Q&A session once in a while, or the Instructor asking "are there any questions?" That doesn't mean every technique needs to be nitpicked or the Instructor's every move questioned. Much like parents, the Instructor's job is to teach students the best way he knows how. It is not the students' position to critique every action or utterance of the teacher. Their job is to shut up and practice.
That doesn't mean that as students advance in rank and mature, they cannot quiz their Instructor about various details, because now they are beginning to understand how things work. As gup students, they simply are not in a position to question like that. A first grade student is not in a position to constantly question the teacher. They need to simply practice, do what they are told, and improve their basic skills. A college student, with much greater levels of understanding and maturity, is in a position to ask respectful questions. Whether or not the teacher feels obliged to answer is a different story.
I would say that students should not begin to ask questions of the Instructor beyond technical details until after Dan level.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 5, 2004)

I think questioning the instructor is great if its a good question, depending apon the question ya know? In mine there well open for questions and tips, if you think your doing the tech wrong or even if you dont think you can do the tech asking them if theres a alternite version(like theres ithis one leg lock to where you sit on there legs in some like pretzel way, me and some of the tall ones couldnt get are selfs to bend that far to get it effectivly weirth we are to tall or not as felxable and so we asked him so he showed us a altneritive lock that isnt as effective but gets the job done as well) but generaly even if we think the technique is useless in real life and no one in there right mind would try to pull it off we usally keep it to ourselfs and if we do say anything about it its along the lines of, how would this tech be done in a real life situation? its good to question your instructor and have a instructor taht answers those questions but secound guessing them is something diffrent


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## Rob Broad (Sep 5, 2004)

There is a big difference between questions and second guessing.  Questions can help you understand the motion, or concpets of that particular part of the training.  Questioning what is being taught is a little different, some people just can't get it in their head that the instructor knows more than them, and have to question everythig that is said to them.  These Nit Pickers can often break up the flow of a class, and be a problem for the rest of the class.  In the past I have taken that student aside and explain to them that if they would wait until the lesson is complete they might learn something, and that they are also slowing down the others students progression.  Some take it the comments I make and use them to help themselves others have tried to lash out.  If they have a problem with the material being taught I refer them to a competitors school, let them have the head ache.  If the have a problem with my teaching style I ask what the problem is, if it just something along the lies that they want everything handed to them with out having to work to learn, I challenge them to try it my way for a month, if they won't try it, I refer them to a competitor.

If a student challenges my authority in class, I remove them from that class.  If they do it a second time, I show them the door, and send them off to a competitor.

If oyu are running a school you have to think about every person in the class, not just one troublesome student.  You have to look at whether this one person's constant questions and out bursts are driving people away, I would rather my competitor have that headache so I can concentrate on the students that wants to learn.


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## OC Kid (Sep 6, 2004)

I tell my students that It'll take approx 3 months of classs 2 X's week and not missing any classes before I can begin to really start teaching them anything. They cant play with the "big boys" until they learn how to play the game.

I dont mind being asked questions or students changing the techniques I teach them to adapt to their own style.
I'll keep harping on major things like closing the gate and keeping their hands up.

If they dont I just tell them they're gonna find out in sparring and when/if they really need to defend themselves. During sparring if they get blasted in their grill with a back fist . Ill just tell them I told ya to keep your hands up now you know why.

I also ask them questions during class to remind them of why we do certain things such as why do we use a fwd stance, why do we kiai ect.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 6, 2004)

Good good, seams a very open and controled class


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 6, 2004)

> 1. Because Americans often confuse having an opinion with having something to say.


lol!

I think I'm in a different environment - my classes tend to be smaller and there isn't a lot of second-guessing or trying to "push" the instructors.  (If there is, it's dealt with and I don't see it!)  So my answer is, I'm glad I feel free to ask questions.  Sometimes they are answered, sometimes they are not, but I'm glad there is that option.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 6, 2004)

If no one asks questions, then no one is thinking about what they are doing.

If no one is thinking about what they are doing, they'd best be doing something else.

Another question would be why don't some instructors like students that have enough brain power to question what they are doing?

If the instructor fully understands what he/she is doing and why, questions should not be a problem.


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## bignick (Sep 6, 2004)

intelligent questions aren't the problem...it's people that spout off without knowing fully what they're talking about..

if i'm not getting something...you better believe i'm gonna ask what i'm doing wrong....

it's people that stand around and say things like, "well, this won't work" or "how realistic is this" when they're just learning the most fundamental version of something...obviously, not everything is gonna be applicable to the real world...but you need to statically train to learn the basics before you move onto more dynamic training....

it's the people that assume the static training is the end all and it never goes anywhere that are the problem


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## Paul B (Sep 6, 2004)

I think the biggest difference is in actual technical questions and "theoretical" questions.

I strongly encourage technical questions about actual technique,if a student wants to move into theory right away without digesting the technique,that moves into the "second guessing" area,which drives me up a wall.

I put it simply like this,techniques are different points on a map,you use these different roadstops to "drive" from place to place. What good is it to get into discussion(theory),when you don't even know how to "drive" yet? Work on learning how to drive,and then you can go wherever you want! But until then,keep training!


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## Rob Broad (Sep 6, 2004)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> _*I have been reading other post topics and see where alot of beginners are questioning why the instructors won't give private to beginners and why they can't come play with the big boys. My question to you on this forum if you are a instructor or not when you was coming up through the ranks where you allow to question your instructor,second guest him or did you do what they ask you to do. I know me, I just did what they told me for they knew more than me. Please try and keep on topic, for me this is becoming a serious problem in today MA world. not at my school but at alot of school I go and visit. Last if a student talks back to you in a bad way during class how would you handle the stituation in front of the other students. GOD BLESS AMERICA*_  :mp5: :flame: :idunno: :whip:




after reading the original post again, I still see it as more of  the questioning of teh instructor not questions to the instructor.  Questions to the instructor are good they show the student is trying to comprehend and learn.  It is good to ask questions to help you learn, it is not so good to question the validity of a tchnique until you have spent enought time on it to know what to ask.  Questioning the instructor incessantly just wastes other students time and money.   If a student openly questions an instructors authority and it is not dealt with immediately it will escalate and destroy the class structure.


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## Paul B (Sep 6, 2004)

Validity is a variable depending on what your "perception" level is. What may be a "valid" technique to me,may not be to some who have not acquired my level of perception,and vica versa.

The point is...do you know what your looking at and feeling from the attacker. If you are just learning a technique,how valid is your perception of said technique?


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## SMP (Sep 6, 2004)

I believe studenst should be encouraged to ask questions. That being said they should be taught by instructors and higher students in appropriate timing.  Often people have not been taught proper etiqite but still want to learn.

As for a student being disrespectful we have a list of rules as well as very basic consequences for violations either Major or Minor. Further if a student has a disagreement with a instructor they are to always follow the instructors instructions including following through with any repremands given ie.. push ups or other exercises after class they may speak with our head instructor (sifu) who settles any disputes or disagreements. 

This system is explained to students and re-explained if necesarry.


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## terryl965 (Sep 6, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> after reading the original post again, I still see it as more of the questioning of teh instructor not questions to the instructor. Questions to the instructor are good they show the student is trying to comprehend and learn. It is good to ask questions to help you learn, it is not so good to question the validity of a tchnique until you have spent enought time on it to know what to ask. Questioning the instructor incessantly just wastes other students time and money. If a student openly questions an instructors authority and it is not dealt with immediately it will escalate and destroy the class structure.


 
Rob you are exactly right it not questions but questioning the instructor, on another post someone question why his instructor would not give him private since he was a lower belt and thats the point I.m trying to make if they come to us for instruction why question the way we instruct, question about technique and the way we do Poomsee is different than why can't we play or how come no private yet.


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## Rob Broad (Sep 6, 2004)

As an instructor, and someone who loves to teach private lessons, I tell the student it is a waste of time until they are at a rank where they will get their money's worth.  A white belt or a yellow belt does not know enough about their art to articulate what exactly they are looking for in a private lesson.  A lot of times a beginner will want to work on one thing in a private lesson but can not see they have to get down something else to make what they want to do work for them.  

Several times a student doing private lessons say they want to learn something they are no where near ready enough to learn and they get upset.  We live in a fast food, micro-wave dinner, high speed world of instant gratification, and private lessons may help a person learn somethings they do not help with seasoning a student.  

Many beginners come into class with unrealistic goals, or attainable goals but in an unrealistic time frame, and that causes problems.  I always tell my students that training is not a race, and they will get good when they get good.


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## Pale Rider (Sep 6, 2004)

I agree with the majority of the reponses.  I believe that beginners don't know enough material to have a "private lesson".  Now granted I wouldn't turn a student down if they wanted to take private lessons as they run usually more in monthly fees.  I think that the beginners need to watch others their own rank perform the same technique in order to realize how they are performing.  By seeing the mistakes of others it is a necessary step in order to advance.  

Alot of times I have had students ask me questions and question my technique(s) - I tell them that martial arts is exactly that and not martial science.  What may work for one, may not work for someone else.  If an instructor is not knowledgable in the field he/she may simply say "Do what I say.."  I find that type of instructor lacking in information and myself will seek information elsewhere.  If a student asks me something that I don't know the answers to - I will try my best to find the answer and relay that to the student.  

If a student questions my technique then I have a solution for that (as was taught to me early in my training) - SHOW THEM!  Usually just one time will convince the student not to question the technique again. (May cause the student to leave the class, but it is better to lose one then many over not demonstrating the effective use of the technique in question.)

In the "old days" - information was not so readily available where as someone could learn so easily.  Those days it was a custom NOT to question the instructor based on the fact that the next instructor may live alot further and it was best to learn without question.  The only disadvantage there that I see is can you rely on techniques that you don't fully understand based on the instructor's (do as I say) attitude?  Or would you (as a student) want to fully comprehend the technique and practice knowing how it works in various/all aspects?  We could use the explanation of something simple like a "high block".  That is something that all white/yellow belts learn and of course it differs from one style/organization to the next, but the fundamentals are there.  One style will say that you are doing "this", while another will say that you are doing "that"... but how effective are they teaching the technique?  How many applications do they cover even over something as simple as a "Han Dahn Mahki"?  Do they cover over other applications such as joint-locks, nerve strikes, throws?  I believe that as instructors we have an obligation to instruct as much as possible to the students for one day they will be the instructors and if we don't teach them what we know - the training will be "watered down" over the generations.

So in essence and in conclusion I will merely state that the students if they ask questions (or question their instructor) - do so only in an honorable method - inquisitive yes, but not in any manner that could be taken as dishonorable.  Learn! Practice! and realize that no one will hold all the answers. It is up to us as continual students to seek out our own answers and see if they hold any validity.


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## OC Kid (Sep 8, 2004)

Well I tell ya I didnt think about it in the negative sense. But if a student gives me attitude or the that wont work type of mess, I do what a friend of mines Chinese instructor does. I tell them that "There is nothing more I can teach you you have to much knowledge." Then send them to another school ( I know of a very expensive McDojo nearby, thats where I tell them to go aient I a stinker). 
 I dont have the time or inclination to spend on someone who just comes and critisizes in a negative attacking way. Its bad for the schools rep student morale and a waste of class time.

 But if a student is sincere about his questions then that is a different story and I will give him all the time he needs.


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## ppko (Sep 9, 2004)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Validity is a variable depending on what your "perception" level is. What may be a "valid" technique to me,may not be to some who have not acquired my level of perception,and vica versa.
> 
> The point is...do you know what your looking at and feeling from the attacker. If you are just learning a technique,how valid is your perception of said technique?


I run across this some times in order to get to the shorter versions of doing certain techniques you have to show the longer versions which are not always applicable to the streets but with time and commitment you can shorten them and make them applicable


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## Paul B (Sep 9, 2004)

Right on...the question is....How can you use shortcuts if you don't know the neighborhood?


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## Andrew Green (Sep 9, 2004)

You'll never learn your way around if someone is always telling you where to go, got to explore a little on your own and figure things out for yourself.


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## Paul B (Sep 9, 2004)

Hi NP:wink2: !


I think we are in agreement. The problem arises when you don't want to listen to the "locals" suggestions. Can you find your way around? Yeah,eventually...but it would make it more rewarding to listen to them,no?


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## Rob Broad (Sep 9, 2004)

Exploration is good, but it is must be tempered with some knowledge before hand.  I look at it like a youngster exploring the woods, the first few times in teh woods they are with someone, that shows them what to look for and be wary of.  You wouldn't drop a toddler off in the woods alon and expect them to survive, and you wouldn't expect a beginner to be able to understand the material of their art without the guidance of an instructor.  Sometimes it is better to keep the mouth closed for a little while, and everything may be explained in the end, or better yet there is only enoght info given about the key points taht you get to piece it together.  I can tell you something a hundred times and you not learn anything, but if i guide you and nudge you so that you find the answers you will always remember what you learned.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 9, 2004)

Having a guide is a big assest, but is the guide showing you the path, or helping you to create one?


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## Rob Broad (Sep 9, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Having a guide is a big assest, but is the guide showing you the path, or helping you to create one?




Not exactly sure what you are trying to say.

But one of the problems today is that students want everything right away, and toss things out way too quickly, just because it is difficult.  I have noticed over last 20 years that many, people starting up in th arts want everything spoon fed to them, and are impatient at the same time.  Part of the learning process is listening, and practicing sometheing over and over many times, then asking questions about it the technique.  It seems many times like respect has completely gone out the window in many aspects of life, and it seems to be happening more often in martial arts schools.  I personally won't answer a rude question, and let the person know it, if they chose to rephrase the question politely then I will answer it.  Sometimes their reaction is a good measure of the person, if they get all hostile and beligerent it makes me wonder why they are in class, and makes reconsider whether i want to teach them.  

The internet has been a wonderous invention, it has let us communicate and share with people around the world, but it has also created many problems in teh martial arts community.  Slight vaiances in styles or instructors can cause problems when  beginner starts reading everywhere and second guessing his instructor.  Unless the school is a McDojo the instructor is the one at the front of the class for a reason.  They have been there before, and with many students, they usually know the best route for the student whether the student can see it or not.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 9, 2004)

I'm saying that spoon feeding is exactly what most do, and it doesn't work.  It just slows progress down.

If you want students to progress you got to let them find there own way and help them...

hmm... do I have to bring the stop the cloning campaign to this forum...


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## Rob Broad (Sep 9, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'm saying that spoon feeding is exactly what most do, and it doesn't work.  It just slows progress down.
> 
> If you want students to progress you got to let them find there own way and help them...
> 
> hmm... do I have to bring the stop the cloning campaign to this forum...




Ther is a time for spoon feeding, it is with the absolute beginners. but too many people want it that way all the way throuh the belts.  Our society has turned too much to an instant gratification society,a nd we want everything right now, and the lack of patience hurts our training more than an instructor who teaches slowly.


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## kelly keltner (Sep 9, 2004)

Afrter reading this thread I'm glad to know that I am not the only person driven crazy by the what iffer's of the world.


kelly


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## Andrew Green (Sep 9, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Ther is a time for spoon feeding, it is with the absolute beginners. but too many people want it that way all the way throuh the belts. Our society has turned too much to an instant gratification society,a nd we want everything right now, and the lack of patience hurts our training more than an instructor who teaches slowly.


Not just that, but one of fairness too.

It took this person 6 months to get this belt, I've been here 6 months I want my belt...

Different people progress at different rates.  Some will never reach the level that others reach in a short period.


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 10, 2004)

Okay.  I haven't posted to this thread since the beginning, but I've been reading it.  _*I*_ have a question for all of you now:

Do you single out the questioner, the student who 'wants it all and wants it now'?  

Do you make him/her wait longer for her/his belt tests?  

Have you explained to them the concept of 'nothing is worth having unless you have worked for it'?

That a black belt isn't there just to hold up your pants - it symbolizes expertise in the art??

Just curious.  I'd like to hear what you all think.


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## Rob Broad (Sep 10, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Okay.  I haven't posted to this thread since the beginning, but I've been reading it.  _*I*_ have a question for all of you now:
> 
> Do you single out the questioner, the student who 'wants it all and wants it now'?



I try not to single out the questioner.  I prefer to take them aside after class and explain that the chronic questions about every little detail, actually slows down the class, and they should give some consideration to the other members of the class.  I let them know that by applying themselves the answers are right in front of them if they will take teh time too look.Some people think they have the right try an monolpolize the instructors time, and I suggest to them that they shoud be probably be doing private lessons.



			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Do you make him/her wait longer for her/his belt tests?



Don't make the chronic questioner wait longer for belts, it happens naturally because they slow their own progress down.  It seems to happen most of all to the instant master type who thinks their 20 lessons have given them enough experience to suggest better ways to do things.



			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Have you explained to them the concept of 'nothing is worth having unless you have worked for it'?



I have said the exact words many times, but to the chronic quesyioner it just adds another dozen questions.  Some people would rather question everything than do the work.  These people usually leave after a hang and bang class, where we rip apart the basics and do them over and and over and over again.  Many of us call these guy armchair martial artists.  They know a lot fo theory and want to know more but they haven't nor probably never will put the time in on the floor to be good enoughto use that theory.



			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> That a black belt isn't there just to hold up your pants - it symbolizes expertise in the art??



I actually tell my students that the Black Belt is just the beginning.  It symbolizes that you have the basics down well enough to move onto advanced material.



			
				kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Just curious.  I'd like to hear what you all think.



Those are my answers to the questions, I am anxious to read everyone elses answers.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 10, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Okay. I haven't posted to this thread since the beginning, but I've been reading it. _*I*_ have a question for all of you now:
> 
> Do you single out the questioner, the student who 'wants it all and wants it now'?


No, they single themselves out.  Depending on the questions they ask they might move faster or slower then if they just shut up and did what they where told.



> Do you make him/her wait longer for her/his belt tests?


I don't give belts to adults.



> Have you explained to them the concept of 'nothing is worth having unless you have worked for it'?


Sure, but questioning and wanting everything right now are two different things.

And truthfully... its not always true.  If I won a lottery that check would definately be worth having, but I didn't work for it.

Moral lessons tend to not work as well if they are full of confilicting examples...




> That a black belt isn't there just to hold up your pants - it symbolizes expertise in the art??


No it doesn't 

And it's got nothing to do with keeping pants up, it is there to hold the jacket closed.


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## Flatlander (Sep 10, 2004)

I haven't enough experience yet to be teaching, but am a student, (I would like to think a decent one), and I wanted to comment on this:





			
				Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Ther is a time for spoon feeding, it is with the absolute beginners. but too many people want it that way all the way throuh the belts. Our society has turned too much to an instant gratification society, and we want everything right now, and the lack of patience hurts our training more than an instructor who teaches slowly.


Rob - totally accurate here. I think that as modern Western society has developed at an alarming rate in the last couple of generations, the work ethic of the average person has decreased significantly. How many people do you all know that put in the amount of effort in their day to day lives as our grandparents did? Or their parents? I believe that the tendency of the newer or more youthful student to desire achievement, as opposed to develop skill, can be a manifestation of youthful ignorance coupled with just being a product of this contemporary mindset. 

Admittedly, I have been guilty of this. But I have grown beyond that. Maybe it's just a matter of time, and of putting things in context. But I'll tell you one thing. Martial Talk has helped me huge. Being able to read the thoughts of such qualified people really helps me understand what IS important, and how to define my own goals and expectations. Perhaps it may be helpful for these incessant questioners to just sit down casually, outside of the dojo or whatever, and just discuss things with some of the seniors. Talk about their martial paths, discuss their goals and reasons for training. 

My two cents. Won't get you much, but read 50 of my posts, and there's your morning coffee!


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## Paul B (Sep 10, 2004)

Andrew,I think we are in agreement,but just coming from different areas. The thing is, you have to know your basics,that is why they are called "basics" they are a starting point for every technique that you can do.

The problem is when people don't have a firm grasp of the basics and want to debate the basics. Why? I think Rob nailed it,we live in an age of "instant gratification",and people want, whatever they want, yesterday! It's no fun if they have to actually "work" for it.

After you know your basics and can apply them in your own way,then I will say.."All right,go have fun!" Until then,please practice and learn them for yourself.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 10, 2004)

Paul B said:
			
		

> Andrew,I think we are in agreement,but just coming from different areas. The thing is, you have to know your basics,that is why they are called "basics" they are a starting point for every technique that you can do.
> 
> The problem is when people don't have a firm grasp of the basics and want to debate the basics. Why? I think Rob nailed it,we live in an age of "instant gratification",and people want, whatever they want, yesterday! It's no fun if they have to actually "work" for it.
> 
> After you know your basics and can apply them in your own way,then I will say.."All right,go have fun!" Until then,please practice and learn them for yourself.




When it gets down to debates about basics, and why. 

I ask them the follow:

1 + 1 = equals 2, correct?

Why?   

Can you tell me how you learned this statment?

You most likely learned it by repetition, which is why  I am asking you to do the technique here over and over. You also did not learn until later, how to even try to make a proof for why 1 + 1 equals 2. You take it on faith at first, then later you learn and grow into the knowledge.


Then I continue with the class. 
:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 10, 2004)

That is a great way of explaining it Rich


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## Paul B (Sep 10, 2004)

LOL! That's great! Mind if I "steal" that? On a sidenote,most people that try to debate basics,don't have the capacity to make the connection,but it's a good one!


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 10, 2004)

Paul B said:
			
		

> LOL! That's great! Mind if I "steal" that? On a sidenote,most people that try to debate basics,don't have the capacity to make the connection,but it's a good one!



Steal away, just remember you learned this from and Engineer and a student of math .  Just give credit to the sceinces


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## Paul B (Sep 10, 2004)

*chuckle* Will do!


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 10, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I don't give belts to adults.
> 
> I know you don't.  In general, however, belts are awarded in MA schools.
> 
> ...


Andrew, a TKD instructor of mine who I respect greatly used to say that.  That's why I expressed it that way.  His point was the same - that a black belt is just another stage in one's journey toward knowledge.


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 10, 2004)

Rich,

Great explanation.  It'd work with the kids also - and especially the kids.  They don't question the techs so much as ask:

"When can I test for my [fill in a color] belt?"
"When is my friend [fill in the name] testing for his/her [fill in a color] belt?"

It's okay for them to ask that.  They're kids.  And they accept a reasonable explanation - I don't subscribe to the school of thought which says "because I'm the teacher, that's why."  KT


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## Athena (Sep 11, 2004)

One of the biggest reasons I like to fully comprehend my techniques is so that I can discuss them with other people. For example, occasionally I will be talking with someone who goes to a different martial arts in school in town and we'll get onto the topic of what we're doing in class.  Some of the self-defense techniques we do are different because of our instrcutors' personal preferences, and I like being able to explain to him or her _why _ we do things a certain way.  I think it makes a school more credible if the students walk away with an understanding instead of just techniques, and the head instructor does a very good job explaining and leaving little room for doubt.

To be honest, I have never seen anyone question my instructors other than for clarification or application, but occasionally someone gets into the "what ifs" too much.  In that case, they are firmly but politely silenced.


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## bignick (Sep 11, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> Great explanation. It'd work with the kids also - and especially the kids. They don't question the techs so much as ask:
> 
> ...


I've spent time working with kids, chaperoning trips and such...

I spent 3 months helping teach a kid's taekwondo class while the assistant instructor was away...it was one of the most frustrating and rewarding experiences i've had...

The questions never stopped, but mostly it was just a kid honestly trying to understand what was going on...

The best was the day I shaved my goatee off and one kid didn't know who i was...


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## kenpo tiger (Sep 12, 2004)

Ah Biggie.  You really wanted to confuse them.  (How many people your size do they know?)I just love the children's classes.  Far as I'm concerned, there's nothing like helping one of them learn a tech.  When the light bulb goes on, it's great to see their faces.  It's also rewarding to have them ask questions because to me it shows that (1) they're paying attention and listening to what I'm saying (2) they really want to learn.  The big payoff is my Tiny Tigers and Little Dragons giving me hugs after we bow out.  Nothing like it.  KT


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## IcemanSK (May 1, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> _*I have been reading other post topics and see where alot of beginners are questioning why the instructors won't give private to beginners and why they can't come play with the big boys. My question to you on this forum if you are a instructor or not when you was coming up through the ranks where you allow to question your instructor,second guest him or did you do what they ask you to do. I know me, I just did what they told me for they knew more than me. Please try and keep on topic, for me this is becoming a serious problem in today MA world. not at my school but at alot of school I go and visit. Last if a student talks back to you in a bad way during class how would you handle the stituation in front of the other students. GOD BLESS AMERICA*_ :mp5: :flame: :idunno: :whip:


 
I saw this I thought I'd bump it.

I read a story recently that put a twist on this issue. Not from a new student, but from an instructor to a great Master. I'll leave out the instructor's name, but the great master was Ji, Han Jae. The instructor wrote a story about a humbling experience he had with GM Ji. The instructor (I'll call, Bob) had a succesful Hapkido school here in So. Cal., but wanted to sharpen his technique. So he decided to travel to San Francisco where GM Ji agreed to give him a 3 hour private lesson for $100 per hour. Bob thought it was steep, but figured for that $$ he'd get what he'd pay for.

Bob drives up to San Francisco & gets to the dojang. He prepares by stretching & throwing kicks etc., awaiting GM Ji to start his lesson. As he throws a kick, GM Ji watches & sees that Bob's foot is in the wrong position for his intended kick & points it out to Bob. Bob unthinkingly says, "Yeah, I know. It's an old habit." GM Ji responds, "Well, since you already know this, you don't need me. Lesson over." GM Ji then walks back into his office. 

Bob had a lot of time to think about this on the 8+ hour drive back home. He started with "What a jerk that guy is!" And ended with, "I was the student & went to him to learn. I should have not been so quick to point out my own faults as if they were no big deal."

Bob waited a few weeks & called GM Ji & apologied. He later went back & learned from GM Ji.

I think about this story a lot since I'm far from my instructor & I've "been a few places & trained a lot of hours." I could picture myself doing the same thing that Bob did. 

If this resonates with you, great.


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## Hand Sword (May 1, 2006)

Yeah, I would 've done the same as Bob, Probably.


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## ChrisWTK (May 2, 2006)

I didn't read the whole topic discussion so I don't know how much was said but beginners will always question more than the advanced students just because they've probably heard the questons before and had them answered already. The beginners don't know and so if they feel comfortable, will ask the instructor 'why?'. Plus I think it's good to question the instructor, or even the art itself and it's validity. If you can't feel confident in the art you're training in then you're probably not going to continue in it. 

As for students who are disrespectful, I think that's wrong. Asking questions is one thing, but doing it to be annoying or disrespectful shouldn't be done. The student in that case should be told that their question will be answered after class so that it's not taking away from the other students and durring that time the instuctor can tell them about what is appropriate behavior in the dojo.


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## Robert Lee (May 2, 2006)

While its good to question your instructor. It should be done with respect. And your instructor should give a valid anwer or demonstration of your question. Now back years ago more blind faith was given to many a instructor. But today people have seen and are less likely to follow blindly what You say. So when asked rightly the answer should be given. As far as mixing in with the advanced students training. A foundation should be built that a student has to understand. But if you are there for a defenseive type training talk to the instructor To see if he offers that type of training only as a aspect of learning.  It will not be taught as a regular part of the training but as a ring or street selfdefence type.


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## AceHBK (May 2, 2006)

I do second guess.  1 time in class and I got reprimanded for it.  The technique for me was not to my advantage to perform on a attacker and I suggested a better way which would work better against an attacker bigger than me.  I got reprimanded bad.

Funny thing is when I went to my Kung Fu Sifu, and told him what happened and showed him the difference between how my TKD teacher suggested and how I suggested he agreed with me and chuckled.

I now just keep quiet and when there is something I see does not benefit me in a particular way (which is rare) i just let it go in one ear and out the other try it and put it in my book of "moves that I will never perform".

Questioning is ok...second guessing........just bite your tongue and try to get thru it as best as possible.


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## hemi (May 2, 2006)

I really hope I show enough respect when I ask my instructor a question about a technique. I tend to ask questions on the moves in the tech it self and when I ask it&#8217;s not so much why does this or that work. That part  becomes obvious soon enough. I tent to ask more of a can I do this move in place of that move if I end up with the same result. Some times it&#8217;s yes and some times I am shown why the idea I was thinking would not work. 

But understand I ask questions to better understand not to mock, disrespect, or take anything away from my instructor or the art. I have always been told the stupidest question is the one you don&#8217;t ask.


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## Hand Sword (May 3, 2006)

I think they do because they're so intent on getting it right, and not feeling confident, that they question out of nervousness, caused by the feeling that everyone is watching them, or they have to match the other students. For the techniques, people just want to make sure that it will work. After all it's about their personal safety in the beginning.


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## Ross (May 3, 2006)

Funnily enough, for me, it was due to the fact that my first instructor could answer my questions that led me to stay with my school. I was always trying to understand things better and if on any occassion he didnt know the answer he would always say so and would come back to me with the answer the following lesson.

I loved his honesty and openess to my probing questions all the time. - Thanks Mr Courtney!

It is something that I have always sought to do with my students as I have taught over the years.

On another note, I teach a lot of university students and one thing that does try my patience is a certain "I know best" attitude that sometimes comes into a class. I have had a few occassions where trying to teach people they have said "we'll i'd just knee him in the groin and leg it". And unfortunately, as much as you can go into various situations or practicalities of this they will not climb down from their stand point. 

Pride comes before a fall I guess.


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## kingkong89 (Feb 1, 2007)

Hello I Am An Instructor And Have Been In A Beginners Position, Never Once Did I Qeustion My Instructor He Has Always Done What I Have Felt Is Right So There Was No Need, But I Understand What You Ared Saying, I Have Had Some Students Talk Back In A Harsh Way, I Just Tell Them To Stop And Be Respectfull To The Belt, And That Their Is No Need For It


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## Rook (Feb 1, 2007)

Why do beginners question their instructors?  The same reason everyone else does.  

1.  To better understand what the instructor means, it may be constructive to play devil's advocate for a moment.  Of course, there is a time, a place, and a method for this and it should not be done in a disruptive manner.  

2.  To see if the instructor actually knows what he or she is doing.  Despite all the trust that we all would like to have, there are alot of people who have no clue what they are doing who wear blackbelts and instruct classes.  Its only normal that people are wary of frauds and poor teachers especially when they have not yet gotten to know you and come to respect a consistant record for telling the truth.


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## Munkyjitsudo (Feb 1, 2007)

I didnt read much of this post but the first ones so I appologize if I'm subject, but staying on topic with the thread. Thats what I love my about my sensei, her favorite thing is the "what if's" and the questions, I find if your sensei knows how to apply there techniques, they'll apply them for the people who need that "reassurance". She tells me it's her favorite part of class when she gets the what if's, I used to ask what if's all the time, I kinda learned my lesson and now only ask "how to's" and never "what if's"


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## Laurentkd (Feb 1, 2007)

I am the highest rank at my dojang, so I can take an instructor and student side to to this. 
Like others have said, students are always encouraged to ask questions at the right time.  And sometimes (most times) in the middle of class is just not the right time. I don't think "how to" questions are what Terry was asking though, I it is those "how come" questions.

My instructor and I kinda joke about a "just shut up and do it" mentality, but in reality that is EXACTLY how it works (for those students that GET IT anyway).  So with he and I that is the way it goes.  He says it, I do it.  If after I have done something he has asked me and I don't understand it's purpose or what I was supposed to get out of it, I can then respectfully and privately talk to him.  Although I play it smart and instead of just flat out asking what "I had to do that for" I tell him what I got out of it, or what I thought of it, and then he can lead me to the real reason- or tell me good job. This is the way he would like all his students to behave, but of course there is no real way to really MAKE students follow "the way" (we don't use shinais in training any more). So you just have to hope they figure it out.  I have had new students ask me about this mentality, and if I think my instructor is flawless.  I respond that he has more experience than me in martial arts (and in life since he is older than I) and so I just do as he says, with my faith that he is doing his job as my sahbom.  I tell them that I don't think my father is perfect either, but even as an adult I sure follow his advice (and commands) and don't question why.  For me a martial arts instructor should be the same way (when it comes to the martial arts at least, I guess how much an individual takes an instructor's advice for other life stuff is up to the individual, and another topic completely).  This seems to make people understand.  I also tell them that if you have decided to train under someone, then you have already decided to do as they say all the time. The decision has already been made.  Either do it because you trust that person, or find someone you DO trust to lead you and follow them.  (I really don't think I am clearly articulating this part, hopefully you get what I mean though). 

As an instructor, I have found that those students who "just shut up and do it" gain way more and way faster than any student who asks "why?" all the time.  So not only is it easier for the instructor, it is better for the student (which is why I continue to follow that way).  

For Students who do ask "why?" all the time I encourage them to just do and see what they find out.  Sometimes I tell them "you'll feel better if you figure it out yourself" or "just do it and then tell my what you discover".
That's the nice way anyway...

Really it is better for the instructor and the student if the student just does and asks questions later.  Usually those original questions are solved by just doing it, and those that aren't are the ones an instructor WANTS to answer.


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## searcher (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't have a problem with a student questioning with the why's and what if's.   This is allowed once they have the basic self-defense techniques down without having to think about it.  I figure that if they can't at the least do the ones I teach then they don't need to know what if.........yet.   I encourage the mid to higher ranks to question everything.   But for a beginner to do so is saying that they will not be able to make the technique work so they are preparing for failure without even having the technique down.    JMHO.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 2, 2007)

If a student doesn't understand the "Why"s and "How Come"s then they really don't undersand what they are doing, just mimicking.  I don't want to ever train mimics.

Mimicking will also severely limit your progress, if you don't know why something is the way it is you don't understand why it is done, if you don't understand why it is done how can you be expected to do it properly to serve a purpose you don't know about?


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## shrek (Feb 2, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> _*I have been reading other post topics and see where alot of beginners are questioning why the instructors won't give private to beginners and why they can't come play with the big boys. My question to you on this forum if you are a instructor or not when you was coming up through the ranks where you allow to question your instructor,second guest him or did you do what they ask you to do. I know me, I just did what they told me for they knew more than me. Please try and keep on topic, for me this is becoming a serious problem in today MA world. not at my school but at alot of school I go and visit. Last if a student talks back to you in a bad way during class how would you handle the stituation in front of the other students. GOD BLESS AMERICA*_ :mp5: :flame: :idunno: :whip:


 
1. Several reasons, but for the most part one has to have the basics figured out before advanced training can begin...on the other hand most commercial teachers don't have time for 1-1 instruction and tend to reserve that for their most promissing students.

2. Questioning the instructor comes from America being a VERY permissive society and people not knowing when to close their mouths and open their ears because their parents did not teach them politeness or obedience.  

3.  I have been told at the beginning of training in almost every school that questions were welcome but please save them until the appropriate time...chances are that the question would be answered by the end of the lesson.  Many of my college instructors were the same 

4.  So far I've not had rudeness as a problem.  Plenty of questions, but I can't think of any rude ones.  One must lay out the guidelines CLEARLY at the beginning of a student's journey so there is no confusion.


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## charyuop (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't ask questions when Sensei explains a technique. But when he stops me coz I am doing it wrong I often ask questions to better understand. English is not my first language, thus sometimes I miss the point...I am afraid in few situations Sensei (I can tell by the answer) thinks I try to second guess him, but actually I just want to make sure what he is saying...


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## donald (Feb 2, 2007)

Cause you in N. America baby. The land of "because I told you to" just is'nt easy to digest. Not always a bad thing, but can get a tad frustrating!!!

1stJohn1:9


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## jdinca (Feb 2, 2007)

I don't mind questions as long as they don't interrupt the lesson. I've had students that questioned everything I told them. Some of the questions can be easily answered but then it can get to a point where, "you're just going to have to trust me" has to be the response. Then, in time, they discover I was right (most of the time), have an "ohhh" moment and the questions diminish as a result.

A lot of it can be a trust building issue and trying to confirm your competence. Blind trust isn't something that's very prevalent in this society.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 2, 2007)

jdinca said:


> A lot of it can be a trust building issue and trying to confirm your competence. Blind trust isn't something that's very prevalent in this society.



And it shouldn't be, thats what got us stuck in the dark ages for a few hundred years


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