# Shaolin Kenpo - Tournaments - do you enter Traditional forms or Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) forms division?



## shima (Mar 9, 2022)

Hi, I teach Ralph Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo at my school. I'm taking them to their first tournament here in Austin, TX next month and for forms we have 2 division options I see: 

Forms (Traditional Forms only) 
Kung Fu / Chinese Forms (soft)

My instructor (Master Professor Bill Grossman) said in his early years competing he would compete in the soft/Chinese forms division before the Kenpo/Kajukenbo forms divisions were added out there in the Bay Area. If my students compete in that division though *everyone* 11 and under is in one age group, so pretty much 80% of my students would be in the same division. The traditional forms divisions are have a 5 and under, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11 etc. 



			https://www.tkoleague.com/_files/ugd/84ec89_db3a0fc5101f4af79cc3c43d4b39b5cc.pdf
		


I'm still waiting for the promoter to get back to me to see what he thinks Kenpo should compete under, but just wanted to ask you all for what you normally compete in for forms for yourself or your students when you only have those two options at a tournament. Thanks in advance for answering!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2022)

shima said:


> Hi, I teach Ralph Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo at my school. I'm taking them to their first tournament here in Austin, TX next month.


Many years ago, there were 2 Kenpo schools in Austin. One was run by Tony Martinez (north Austin). Another one was run by Gary Swam (south Austin). Does your Kenpo school have anything to do with those schools?
​


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## shima (Mar 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago, there were 2 Kenpo schools in Austin. One was run by Tony Martinez (north Austin). Another one was run by Gary Swam (south Austin). Does your Kenpo school have anything to do with those schools?
> ​


Nope.
Tony Martinez -> American Kenpo (Ed Parker lineage)
Gary Swan -> looks like he trained under Stephen LaBounty (RIP sir!) who is also American Kenpo

My school is Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro lineage.

When I moved here (I came from the Bay Area) I reached out and was told I was the first person to open a Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo school in TX according to the knowledge of Ralph Castro's webmaster (shaolinkenpo.com) I was actually trying to find a school to train in before I opened my school here a few years back...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2022)

shima said:


> My school is Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro lineage.


Do you teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard?

I still remember one day Gary Swam asked me, "I teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard. What do you teach?" I said, "I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tan, Pao." He had no idea what I was talking about.


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## shima (Mar 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard?
> 
> I still remember one day Gary Swam asked me, "I teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard. What do you teach?" I said, "I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tan, Pao." He had no idea what I was talking about.



No, I think he's referring to actual Chinese kung fu systems w/ that question. Those systems have specific sub-styles per animal. My friend owns a kung fu school here in Austin, TX teaches various animal sub-styles in his school. His page: ADULT KUNG FU | Shaolin Martial Arts (it lists the various animal style he teaches)

We do have kata's with some animal names in them though. "Ripping Tiger" "Cobra Strikes Back" "Fire Dragon" etc (nothing with crane or leopard names)

We don't teach styles based on animals, just curriculum and no focus on a specific animal. Founders website is Ralph Castro (RIP): International Shaolin Kenpo Association [Home Page]
My instructors website: Bill Grossman's School of Kenpo Karate
My website: Immortal Tiger Kenpo Karate | Martial Arts School | Austin Texas


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## shima (Mar 9, 2022)

Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2022)

Traditional may suit Kenpo better.

Both Tony's and Gary's Kenpo schools taught this CMA form - the tiger and crane form.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2022)

shima said:


> Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.


Tough question and I guess it really depends.  I’m not familiar with the Castro lineage forms so can’t really give an opinion. 

When you say “traditional” do you mean Japanese/Okinawan?  Because Chinese martial arts are also traditional and have their forms, unless you mean Modern Wushu, the flowery, acrobatic performance art created by the a communist government in the 1950s and deliberately separated from the traditional fighting methods?  If Modern Wushu is the other option, then no, you should not be competing in that grouping.  It is its own animal, with compulsory forms and such.  

If the choices are traditional Chinese or traditional Japanese/Okinawan, then It is a tougher call.

If the choice is traditional (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Chinese, etc.) vs. Modern Wushu, then definitely traditional.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Traditional may suit Kenpo better.
> 
> Both Tony's and Gary's Kenpo schools taught this CMA form - the tiger and crane form.


Ok, you are muddying the waters.  Early Parker kenpo included Tige/crane which was lifted from Hung Gar,  Parker dropped it, but the Tracy lineage kept it.  But it is out of place in kenpo, it does not belong there.  There is a whole history there.  

At any rate, none of this has anything to do with Castro kenpo.  It traces back to William Chow, but NOT through Ed Parker.  It is not the same thing.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 9, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, you are muddying the waters.  Early Parker kenpo included Tige/crane which was lifted from Hung Gar,  Parker dropped it, but the Tracy lineage kept it.  But it is out of place in kenpo, it does not belong there.  There is a whole history there.
> 
> At any rate, none of this has anything to do with Castro kenpo.  It traces back to William Chow, but NOT through Ed Parker.  It is not the same thing.


Ed Parker couldn't handle Tiger Crane.  That's why he dropped it.  It's not a style for celebrities.  People who train this, for real, don't have breath left over for philosophical commentary, let alone publicity.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 9, 2022)

shima said:


> Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.


If I had to make the choice, I would probably say traditional.  There's a lot of stuff that could be considered traditional but not be Chinese.  I don't know much of Kenpo, but I've had my fill of politics it seems to me that Traditional would be less drama.  I think if you listed it as Chinese, then you would probably have a lot of explaining to do.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ed Parker couldn't handle Tiger Crane.  That's why he dropped it.  It's not a style for celebrities.  People who train this, for real, don't have breath left over for philosophical commentary, let alone publicity.


What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird.  I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage.  It is an atrocity.  It is better to not be in there.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 9, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird.  I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage.  It is an atrocity.  It is better to not be in there.


From what I saw, I would have dropped it too.  I'm not saying this in a mean way, but if you pull something from another system then it better be good.


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## shima (Mar 10, 2022)

Ok let me help by sharing the YouTube channel (which is not done full speed tournament style flow, but mostly count here for students to reference when practicing after they learn). Pick up the speed a bit and don't count out loud / throw the kicks higher for tournament, and that'll give you an idea. http://youtube.com/c/ImmortalTigerKenpoKarate

The "all key katas" playlist has all our major katas and most of my students would be doing 1-2 of those katas at tournament, especially from the earlier kata's as my highest rank so far is only a green belt, a bunch of blue belts, and then the rest are white/yellow/orange/purple.


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## shima (Mar 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If I had to make the choice, I would probably say traditional.  There's a lot of stuff that could be considered traditional but not be Chinese.  I don't know much of Kenpo, but I've had my fill of politics it seems to me that Traditional would be less drama.  I think if you listed it as Chinese, then you would probably have a lot of explaining to do.


That was my initial knee jerk reaction, but my instructor, Master Professor Bill Grossman, said he used to compete in the Chinese soft forms division before they created specific kenpo divisions in California... so it really got me questioning things. Our stances are NOT as deep as traditional Japanese/Korean styles... and when we get moving quicker we do have more of a flow compared to Traditional, so he might be onto something.... but we're also not kung fu at the end of the day either. 

I also really hate that if we do Chinese for the kids that ALL the 11 and under would all be lumped into one division. My teens and adults it's less of an issue as they have more age chunks for those, but only traditional division has the under 5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11 divisions for the younger kids broken out... argh decisions.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2022)

I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?

This guy won the 1st place in 1975 (or 1974?) Bruce Lee Memorial Dallas Karate tournament black belt division. Even by Karate standard, he got highest grade (I recorded this with my 8mm camera).

This is what a CMA form judge may look for - smooth, flexible, fast, powerful, ...






I competed in that tournament too (It was good to be young).


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## shima (Mar 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
> Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?


As someone who has competed for a while myself in my earlier days (early 2000's I competed in "traditional" divisions since my first black belt was a shotokan karate variant) and then again later competed in Kenpo/Kajukenbo divisions in California in the earlier 2011-2015 years... I think what I've learned about why it's "soft" has to do w/ the Kung Fu styles being more "fluid" and transitional versus the Japanese "traditional" styles often having very hard "locked" moments/pauses and less of a flow to them. 

That said these techniques for Kung Fu and Kenpo will still do much damage despite not looking "hard"  

I've only been training in martial arts since 2000 though, and based on your videos Kung Fu Wang I'm pretty sure you've got a couple extra decades of experience on me  

Here's a video of me competing with the Shaolin Kenpo form "Galloping Horse" at the IKC 50th Anniversary tournament in Long Beach, CA in 2014. 





Here was 2 of our star kid students from Bill Grossman's back in 2011 at a tournament: 



Side note I'm extremely sad they no longer actively train. The boy stopped sometime after 1st degree black and his younger sister stopped sometime after student black.


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## shima (Mar 11, 2022)

This is the tournament we're going to next month's flyer with the divisions listed out:


			https://www.tkoleague.com/_files/ugd/84ec89_db3a0fc5101f4af79cc3c43d4b39b5cc.pdf
		


"Kung Fu / Chinese Forms (soft)" <-- youngest division is 11 years and under all together, then every 2 years, then adult divisions
"Creative Forms (with or without music)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
"Forms (Traditional forms only)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
Clearly the first division is not super popular at this circuit of tournaments for the younger kids... and we don't have any flips or fancy acrobatics, so creative forms is probably not the best idea either....


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2022)

shima said:


> This is the tournament we're going to next month's flyer with the divisions listed out:
> 
> 
> https://www.tkoleague.com/_files/ugd/84ec89_db3a0fc5101f4af79cc3c43d4b39b5cc.pdf
> ...


I think this description is unclear.  As I stated earlier, kung fu forms are very traditional.  So what do they mean with the other category, “Traditional” as something apparently separate from kung fu?

Or by kung fu, do they actually mean Modern Wushu which is definitely not traditional kung fu.  Maybe they don’t know they difference?  Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?

I think you need to get some clarity from them.  And kenpo is it’s own thing.  It is not kung fu, and it is not Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is not Tae kwon do or tang soo do.   So given those choices, I’m not sure what to suggest.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?


This remind me one year in Dallas Taiji legacy tournament, there was a Baji form division. One guy used a long fist form to compete in that Baji division. I gave him a very low score. The other judges all asked me why. I told them that this guy did not do Baji form. Apparently, all judges (except me) have no idea about what Baji form supposed to look like.

Sometime even the judges may have no idea about what they are judging.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2022)

A good friend of mine (he trains CMA) loved to compete form in karate tournament. He had collected many 1st place black belt trophies. He would always stared with a slow Taiji form. Before all the audience almost fell to sleep, he suddenly connected to a fast long fist form with a lot of fancy kicks. 

Form competition in US is very strange indeed.


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## shima (Mar 11, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I think this description is unclear.  As I stated earlier, kung fu forms are very traditional.  So what do they mean with the other category, “Traditional” as something apparently separate from kung fu?
> 
> Or by kung fu, do they actually mean Modern Wushu which is definitely not traditional kung fu.  Maybe they don’t know they difference?  Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?
> 
> I think you need to get some clarity from them.  And kenpo is it’s own thing.  It is not kung fu, and it is not Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is not Tae kwon do or tang soo do.   So given those choices, I’m not sure what to suggest.


TKO League = Texas Karate Organization. The organizer told me traditional means Japanese (karate) and Korean hard styles. 

I'm quite away Kenpo is it's own thing, in the California Bay Area we had a Kenpo/Kajukenbo division just for our forms. Sadly no luck here  . I believe based on the other division being called Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) = they mean anything along that China side that isn't the "traditional" Japanese/Korean arts? 

It's super frustrating to not have our own division since I really don't know which we'll have the better chance of our students doing well in... Glad you're just as lost as I am on what we should do LOL.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 11, 2022)

shima said:


> It's super frustrating to not have our own division


Back in those years, there was no Kung Fu tournament. All CMA people had to compete in Karate, or TKD tournament. Since most Karate people dressed white and most CMA people dressed black, A CMA person had to dress white Kung Fu uniform to be able to blend into a white Karate tournament. Today even Karate people dress black.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2022)

shima said:


> TKO League = Texas Karate Organization. The organizer told me traditional means Japanese (karate) and Korean hard styles.
> 
> I'm quite away Kenpo is it's own thing, in the California Bay Area we had a Kenpo/Kajukenbo division just for our forms. Sadly no luck here  . I believe based on the other division being called Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) = they mean anything along that China side that isn't the "traditional" Japanese/Korean arts?
> 
> It's super frustrating to not have our own division since I really don't know which we'll have the better chance of our students doing well in... Glad you're just as lost as I am on what we should do LOL.


Well, it sounds like you are a square peg being crammed into a round hole.  I guess go with the Chinese division.  You aren’t going to get the right fit no matter what, but I guess they have some very specific things in mind for the Traditional division, and you guys are not that.  Looks like they are using the Chinese division as a catch-all for everything else, which suggests to me they are not terribly knowledgeable about it.  You may need to educate them on this and it might take a few years before they take notice.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This remind me one year in Dallas Taiji legacy tournament, there was a Baji form division. One guy used a long fist form to compete in that Baji division. I gave him a very low score. The other judges all asked me why. I told them that this guy did not do Baji form. Apparently, all judges (except me) have no idea about what Baji form supposed to look like.
> 
> Sometime even the judges may have no idea about what they are judging.


Truth!

And by the way, back in the 1970s one of my teachers went with a group to Texas to a tournament.  A Texas police saw their California license plates and pulled them over.  One of his friends had long hair.  The police officer took him to a barber and made him cut his hair.


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## chiquest (Mar 15, 2022)

Actually, the word "Kenpo" was not used until after William Chow. Before that, the disciple was known as "Kempo". Also, "Kenpo" is a Japanese translation of the Chinese word "quánfǎ" ("Chu'an Fa"). So, Chinese Martial Artists did not use the word "Kenpo". As I posted earlier, one interesting story is that in James Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 15, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird.  I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage.  It is an atrocity.  It is better to not be in there.


The whole Ed Parker and James Wing Woo story… oh boy, I’m sure that won’t make me very popular with a certain sect of EPK folks.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The whole Ed Parker and James Wing Woo story… oh boy, I’m sure that won’t make me very popular with a certain sect of EPK folks.


Fifteen years ago a lot of those folks were active on this site.  Then a sister site was opened, kenpotalk.com, and most went over there to talk only kenpo.  Some still show up here occasionally.  It looks to me like KT just closed for good, recently.  Suddenly I can’t get anything when I try to go there.  It has been mostly dead for years, I was wondering why anyone was keeping it open.  

At any rate, not a lot of them here, at least not actively posting.


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2022)

Shima, it's all about the competitors, especially if they're kids. My advice would be to enter them in the one where 80% of them will NOT be in the same division.

And best of luck to you and all your students!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
> Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?
> 
> This guy won the 1st place in 1975 (or 1974?) Bruce Lee Memorial Dallas Karate tournament black belt division. Even by Karate standard, he got highest grade (I recorded this with my 8mm camera).
> ...


Nice!


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## pel1188 (Mar 16, 2022)

Do traditional. From what I’ve seen in Michigan soft forms look more like tai chi


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## pel1188 (Mar 16, 2022)

pel1188 said:


> Do traditional. From what I’ve seen in Michigan soft forms look more like tai chi


Also watching your forms on YouTube, they would fit better in that category.


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## Old Happy Tiger (Mar 19, 2022)

chiquest said:


> Actually, the word "Kenpo" was not used until after William Chow. Before that, the disciple was known as "Kempo". Also, "Kenpo" is a Japanese translation of the Chinese word "quánfǎ" ("Chu'an Fa"). So, Chinese Martial Artists did not use the word "Kenpo". As I posted earlier, one interesting story is that in James Mitose's manuscript for his book, "What is True Self-Defense?", he called the style "Kempo". The publisher inexplicably changed the spelling to "Kenpo". When numerous books were printed, Mitose saw the modification and asked the publisher to change the name back to "Kempo". When the publisher told him how expensive it would be, Mitose decided to leave the modified spelling in the book. The rest, as they say, is history. That is why the names "Kempo" and "Kenpo" are really interchangeable and refer to the same discipline.


Respectfully, that is interesting... I've never heard that story. I was always told that the Ke*n*po name, was towards the Okinawan Karate based teachings of James Mitose as his art did not have any Chinese based or sounding techniques, mainly all linear with some wrist and arm locks, throws and some groundwork. Very much like Okinawan Karate regarding the punches and kicks. Ke*m*po was used more for any style that used again Chinese techniques or similar sounding techniques like "twin hammers", ect. Or any Kempo style that use animals strikes from the Chinese 5 animal style.


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## shima (Mar 22, 2022)

Also from an romanization perspective, kenpo in Japanese is けんぽう in hiragana, 拳法 in kanji. https://jisho.org/word/拳法

Where I'm going w/ this language lesson is the alphabetical, aka hiragana, spelling breaks down as such:
け = ke ん = n ぽ = po う = u (or in this case making the po a longer sound)

There is no standalone "m" sound in Japanese, so if we are taking the name Kenpo from the Japanese pronunciation/reading, then Kenpo is the correct romanization technically if you want to go purist...

... however if you want to apply old traditional Hepburn romanization, then per Wikipedia "Syllabic _n_ (ん) is written as _n_ before consonants, but as _m_ before labial consonants: _b_, _m_, and _p_." But Modern Hepburn doesn't use this, and still uses "n" and no "m" for the reading.
Hepburn romanization - Wikipedia

I majored in Japanese Studies for my BA/MA and I'm at a conversational fluency level (N3 of the 日本語能力試験) for background into my analysis of the above 

Meanwhile, those same characters in Chinese are pronounced: Quánfǎ <-- nothing like the romanization of the Japanese into Kenpo/Kempo 

So the TL : DR Kenpo and Kempo are both technically the same word, just different romanizations of the same word in Japanese.  Some masters liked 1 versus the other, so how we choose to use them is another matter.


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## shima (Mar 22, 2022)

pel1188 said:


> Also watching your forms on YouTube, they would fit better in that category.


Yeah, after much deliberating, I came to the same conclusion. If I emphasize they really lock out the strikes and such too we just won't be as fluid as Kung Fu even if we are doing our "flow" style, so that's my plan for us to compete in Traditional. Neither is really ideal, but of the two Traditional seems to make the most sense for this tournament....

...plus I hated the idea of all kids 11 and under beginner AND intermediate being lumped into ONE division at that tournament if we did the "soft"/Chinese/Kung Fu division. That would be almost all my kid students competing against each other.


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## shima (Mar 22, 2022)

Buka said:


> Shima, it's all about the competitors, especially if they're kids. My advice would be to enter them in the one where 80% of them will NOT be in the same division.
> 
> And best of luck to you and all your students!


Yup, 100% agree and that's why we have decided to enter them into Traditional! I would be so mad if they were all competing against each other, lol, we could just do an inter-school tournament at that point instead


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## jks9199 (Mar 23, 2022)

shima said:


> Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.


Most likely, the Traditional Forms refers the hard style, more rigid forms like Japanese Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and similar arts.  That's why they have a different category for soft/Chinese styles; those forms are just different and often don't compete well against each other.  The third form category they have is the Creative ones -- and that's the XMA/tricking stuff.  We'll safely assume your forms don't fall there, I think.  

Look at your forms; what do they resemble more?  Karate kata or Chinese kung fu forms?  If they're hard-style forms similar to karate, I'd say compete there -- but if they look more like a kung fu form...  compete there.  And if you've got some that are either... split your students around where they can compete at their best!


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## shima (Mar 23, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> Most likely, the Traditional Forms refers the hard style, more rigid forms like Japanese Karate, Tae Kwon Do, and similar arts.  That's why they have a different category for soft/Chinese styles; those forms are just different and often don't compete well against each other.  The third form category they have is the Creative ones -- and that's the XMA/tricking stuff.  We'll safely assume your forms don't fall there, I think.
> 
> Look at your forms; what do they resemble more?  Karate kata or Chinese kung fu forms?  If they're hard-style forms similar to karate, I'd say compete there -- but if they look more like a kung fu form...  compete there.  And if you've got some that are either... split your students around where they can compete at their best!


think you didn't see my replies from earlier this week, but we will be competing in Traditional, we really are somewhere more in the middle for Shaolin Kenpo, but of the two a) slightly more locking and b) the kids would get screwed in the Chinese/soft division as it's 11 and under beginner and intermediate all in one division, so not a good experience for them there.


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