# Broken Gift, Gift of Destiny etc..



## satans.barber (May 14, 2002)

Does anyone else think that defenses against a 'crushing handshake' are a bit useless? I can't imagine a situation where anyone would ever actually get attacked by a crushing handshake!

These are brown belt techniques on our syllabus, I can't help thinking my time would be better spent learning some of the techniques I see mentioned frequently but aren't on our syallabus, such as Raining Lance or Back Breaker.

Interested to know people's thoughts...

Ian.


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## Seig (May 14, 2002)

I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience, they are very useful.  I teach a few other techniques against crushing handshakes that are not on the syllabus also.  The reason I spend so much time on them?  My classes are in a college town.  I also teach at the college.  College=Fraternities.  Fraternities have a tendency to have quite a few large innebriated men/boys at them.  These neandrethals seem to have a need to prove how strong they are and if they are impaired not only loose their judgement but have hurt people.  There is a time and a place for everything.


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## Klondike93 (May 14, 2002)

The techniques can also be used for a wrist grab. Yes it's for a handshake but would work well for grabs too. 


:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (May 15, 2002)

I was at a seminar where Mr. Planas was going over 3 of the handshake techniques. When he taught these you knew why there were the different positions and why you would use 1 over the other. Each 1 has it's own useful information. I received a much better understanding on how they worked and how to apply them. On the 2 labeled above Mr. Planas changed a few angles on how our class were doing the techniques as well as  each 1 had a better feel.
Jason Farnsworth


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## matthewgreenland (May 15, 2002)

I used to not be a big fan of the ol' handshake techniques; however, over the years I've started to appreciate them.

If you look at it from another standpoint, you may see that sometimes after a heated argument with someone they may want your hand to shake and prove that they have no hard feelings.  At this point, if they are a good con artist, they may convince you to shake with them, but they are really planning to set you up for a sucker punch.  

One thing that I've been doing with shake techniques is having the attacker throw a punch from the opposite hand.  During the first move of the technique you can see that you are able to cancel the other weapons of the attacker, or now victim, lol.

Adding the sucker punch element added a spark of realism for me.

Hope this helps.


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## brianhunter (May 16, 2002)

Hey aggressive handshakes happen in Pro Wrestling all the time!! The Rock has used it to set them up for the Rock Bottom! Kinda a variation of gift of destruction instead of the knee and elbow!

Here goes this thread down the hatch sorry guys 
:flushed:


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## Seig (May 16, 2002)

We should start our own group!  The *New Kenpo World Order* or we could change it around and be the *Kenpo New Order Worldwide* then we could ALL claim to be in the Know!


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## arnisador (May 16, 2002)

You might end up in a handshake or near-handshake position as a result of intercepting an attempted grab (and being grabbed on the hand in response to your attempt to intercept) or working to wrestle a weapon out of an opponent's hands or him grasping your hand while trying to get one out of yours.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Does anyone else think that defenses against a 'crushing handshake' are a bit useless?  *



No, it is not a useless defense, for various reasons...  One, this is a possible attack that is hidden by a typically friendly action......... this merits thought.... 
next it is a specialized type of grab that has numerous options worth exploring both with harsh retaliation and/or just simple release tactics explored.  It is a grab on the most flexible appendage of your body...

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (May 17, 2002)

Used to hate them, now I love 'em.

Beat someone up for shaking your hand, I don't think so.  How about:

1. Gift of Destruction - Someone forcing your hand down and toward you with the "crushing" handshake as they think about hitting you with a left punch.

2. Gift in Return - Opponent activly pulling you in for a left punch.

3. Gift of Destiny - The old "crushing" handshake, but this time they are bending their bicep to "crush" mo' betta'.  This is as if they pulled you back as you tried to leave.  If you work the wrist and check the forearm as they bend the bicep it does some fun things to the muscles and ligiments in the forearm and wrist.

4. Broken Gift - We work against a handshake and left kick, so we have to put their body between us and the kick (or left punch), checking their width and heigth, thereby controlling depth. 

These are some of the "What If's" I came up with to justify beating up someone shaking my hand.  Lo and behold, they are also found in the "Notes" I have regarding the techniques.  It sure gives my students a reason to learn something that the 1st impulse is to "not like" or not make sense.

Have fun - bowing seems safer!
-Michael B.
UKS-Texas


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## Goldendragon7 (May 18, 2002)

You are in sudden death overtime....... 
the judge says... salute... you do..... then...

you stand up extend your hand and when your opponent does the same....... 

You quickly "Back Fist" your opponent and win the match!!

:asian:


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## Seig (May 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *You are in sudden death overtime.......
> the judge says... salute... you do..... then...
> ...


...Immediately get disqualified, have your instructor drag you out by the scruff of the neck because he 'never taught you that', get ganged up on inthe parking lot by a mob of angry parents......


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## Goldendragon7 (May 18, 2002)

It works!!!!!!  I lost a match that way........ the cheap __)((^%#%^$^  of a  %$#%#^$!!

this is experience talking! 
:asian:


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## Klondike93 (May 18, 2002)

That's a pretty crummy way to win a trophy. It wasn't at the Internationals was it?  When ever something like that happened at a tournament I was at, they did the point over. They should have done that for you too.

:asian:


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## C.E.Jackson (May 18, 2002)

Most of the handshake techniques teach principles of motion you will use in more advanced techniques such as knife attacks. They may seem usless to you now but learn them well. The motions you learn now will become perfected by the time you need to use them in a more serious attack requiring more skill later.


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## donald (May 18, 2002)

I always thought, and I believe was taught. That these were "threatening" situations. Along the lines of the the attempted quick sucker punch, etc.. Is this incorrect? 


Salute in Christ,


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## C.E.Jackson (May 18, 2002)

Any attack whether it's a handshake or a knife attack has the potental of doing you harm, so yes a handshake is a serious attack... however there ARE levels of seriousness - a grab has a lower potental for serious injury than a knife attack and requires a lower skill level to defend against - in most cases. 

That is why Ed Parker placed the handshakes lower in the requirements that knife attacks. The principles taught in the lower levels - when practiced over time - lead to the skill level required to defend against an attack of greater potental for serious injury or death.
:idea:


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## clvlkenpo (May 19, 2002)

As with all techniques, look for the principle being taught, not the sequence of moves taught in the ideal form of the technique. gift in return works really well for example against a right punch, simply left inward/right outward parry from the outside and you have the same reference point to force the opponent's arm down into his groin with your right hand. this is a practical application in motion  that works very well from experience besides the actual "handshake" version.

Rob


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Broken Gift and Gift of Destiny are subs under the Master Key "Thundering Hammers"..

:asian:


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## Rainman (May 21, 2002)

> Broken Gift and Gift of Destiny are subs under the Master Key "Thundering Hammers"..



Why do you have them as subs under TH?  

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

Thundering Hammers is the Master Key (one of ten)that they are under.....:asian:


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## Rainman (May 21, 2002)

I must have meant why do they fit there?  I see the "family" relations but is that it?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

yes.....thundering hammers has 32 techniques under its Master Key position.

Not just the groupings but also angles and actions.

:asian:


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## Rainman (May 21, 2002)

Okay thankyou I see the hows and whys now.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

:asian:


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## satans.barber (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Broken Gift and Gift of Destiny are subs under the Master Key "Thundering Hammers"..
> 
> :asian: *



OK, everyone else seems to know what you mean and I don't, which is kinda worrying..subs? Master key?

I don't think we do this bit (something else I'm missing no doubt...!), can you type me a little crash course or give me a link, I'm not going to know what people are talking about otherwise 

It's all very well studying Kenpo Ryu, but rather than mentioning these things so we can go and find out about them for ourselves, they just never mention them at all!



Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

Master Keys refer to the use of one "key" (like in a hotel or office building) that may open many doors.  There are several "Master Keys" pertaining to different things.... such as Techniques (as we are talking here) or Master Key Training drills etc.  "Subs" or sub-categories are other similar techniques that the Master Key is related to.

:asian:


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## Kirk (May 22, 2002)

I hope to some day understand just what the heck y'all are 
talking about!


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## satans.barber (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Master Keys refer to the use of one "key" (like in a hotel or office building) that may open many doors.  There are several "Master Keys" pertaining to different things.... such as Techniques (as we are talking here) or Master Key Training drills etc.  "Subs" or sub-categories are other similar techniques that the Master Key is related to.
> 
> :asian: *



OK, that makes sense...

So the idea is that these 'master keys', such as Thundering Hammers, once understood, should aid in understanding the techniques under them (in this case Broken Gift etc.)?

Hmm, I guess in that case I ought to learn to love Thundering Hammers a bit more then! The first 4 parts are OK, but then ending (on our version anyway) is dire 

Are these 'keys' and such like laid down somewhere so that I may study them? Mind you, I suppose they're in the Inifinite Insights series which is out of print, a lot of stuff seems to be in there.

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

I think under "Master Keys"  No, they are not specified in the Insights Series.

you'll have to search the archives....
:asian:


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## Self_Destruct (May 31, 2002)

It's not so much the handshake you are worried about...it's what ever is coming next. Just like all the push and grab techniques. If it was just a push/grab, you could just let the person push/grab you and then walk away. Now that's not very realistic is it. So in order to define the response you first have to define the attack. A realistic attack gets a realistic response. For example take Alternating Maces...the push is just the first attempt at contact. If the push is successfull then maybe a punch, knee, or some kind of lock/hold could come next. Instead of allowing that we attack the attack...Deflect, Dominate, Destroy. We imediately shut down the attack before it gets started. 

Personally I think the term self-defense is a bit of a misnomer. It gives the impression of a give and take, an ebb and flow. When you train with someone who has the Attack the Attack mindset instead of the self-defense mindset it opens up a whole new world of kenpo. I sort of got off on a rant but I hope that helps some.


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## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *It's not so much the handshake you are worried about...it's what ever is coming next. Just like all the push and grab techniques. If it was just a push/grab, you could just let the person push/grab you and then walk away. Now that's not very realistic is it. So in order to define the response you first have to define the attack. A realistic attack gets a realistic response. For example take Alternating Maces...the push is just the first attempt at contact. If the push is successfull then maybe a punch, knee, or some kind of lock/hold could come next. Instead of allowing that we attack the attack...Deflect, Dominate, Destroy. We imediately shut down the attack before it gets started.
> 
> Personally I think the term self-defense is a bit of a misnomer. It gives the impression of a give and take, an ebb and flow. When you train with someone who has the Attack the Attack mindset instead of the self-defense mindset it opens up a whole new world of kenpo. I sort of got off on a rant but I hope that helps some. *



Maybe you could explain more about Deflect, dominate, and destroy as it applies to the handshake... sounds interesting.

:asian:


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Well, I'll do my best. Obviously we don't deflect the actual handshake we deflect the attack. Like I mentioned earlier in my previous post, it's not so much the actual handshake/grab we're worried about it's what ever comes next. The attack starts with the handshake...we immediately deflect the attack by stopping his ability to continue his attack by for example immediately canceling his height/width. We dominite by continuing our attack by penetrating his depth zones and physically dominating all dimensions. And destroy can be anything it has to be...from destroying his ability to stand up and running away to something  extreme as killing him if need be. I hope that was what you were looking for...I'm short on time and thats all I can type right now. I'd be happy to discuss it further at another time if there's anything else.


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## Rainman (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Is deflect, dominate, destroy used as a supplement to divert sieze control disarm or a replacement?   I think deflect may also be used to describe misalignment of bone and muscle.  Sometimes a squeeze may act as a warning and the deflection would be in reference to romoving bracing angles and strength factors.  Dominate would be gaseous expansion and control on dimensional zones (pretty much the beginning of the end) destroy is easy.   Is deflect, dominate, destroy used universally as in armed vs unarmed, unarmed vs. unarmed etc?   It doesn't say about controlling angle of versitility as does divert sieze control disarm.  Interesting stuff keep it going.


 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 2, 2002)

deflection is only one means of avoiding attack... what about a slip!

:asian:


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 2, 2002)

Well a "slip" might work well for the ladies... But what do the men wear to avoid an attack???? :rofl: 



> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *deflection is only one means of avoiding attack... what about a slip!
> 
> :asian: *


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## Rainman (Jun 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *deflection is only one means of avoiding attack... what about a slip!
> 
> :asian: *



 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

why the .... 

I dont get it......


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 4, 2002)

Rainman can you elaborate on that. Inquiring minds want to know.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Rainman (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *deflection is only one means of avoiding attack... what about a slip!
> 
> :asian: *



What are you answering here?   Universally in the context of deflect dominate destroy as is to divert, sieze, control disarm.  LOL, I know what/when  a bob, weave, roll, slip, etc., can be used for.  That wasn't the context of my inquiry- if and only if you were talking to me. 

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

not just talking to you...... hee hee.

:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *not just talking to you...... hee hee.
> 
> :asian: *



Did you get my email?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)




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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

the phone number ........... Yes...... I got it.   I'll call you.:asian:


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




I would have to say I agree with everything you said.  I wish I could go into greater detail but I am still somewhat new to the UKF having switched from the IKKA and still in the learning stages and far from an expert in this.  Deflect, Dominate, Destroy is used universally regardless of situation.  True, deflection isn't the only way to avoid an attack but keep in mind some of the techniques have been slightly changed to keep with the Attack the Attack/Deflect, Dominate, Destroy mindset.  You might want to checkout the UKF website...it goes into detail about some of this stuff.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

to help you keep in line with priorities necessary to become victorious in battle.

Deflect..... you need to either not be there or deflect the on coming action or get hit.

Dominate.... is to control completely the entire salutation.

Destroy.... is a choice to incapacitate the attacker so as  to not allow further actions.  There may very well be other philosophies that you could choose as well...... not "always" do we choose to "destroy" anything, yet at other times it is the best option.

:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Maybe you could describe a tek that has been altered to follow the attack/Deflect, Dominate, Destroy mindset.   Sounds fun to me.


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

to follow that line of thought......
:asian:


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## Rainman (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *to follow that line of thought......
> :asian: *



Hmm think they are coming back?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

We deflected, dominated him, and must have destroyed his will I guess.............. who knows .......... It must work!

:redeme:


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## Les (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Hey aggressive handshakes happen in Pro Wrestling all the time!! *



Hey,

I heard someone say that all that wrestling stuff was all fake.

Can you beleive that someone would start a rumour like that?

We may be all the way over here in England, but we're not stupid.


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## satans.barber (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> We may be all the way over here in England, but we're not stupid. *



We're not no! 

(Me and Les have to stick together, there's no other British peeps in here!! That I know of...)

Ian.


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




I would like to but one thing Mr. Pick is very serious about is keeping UKF material within the UKF and not spreading it around or posting it on the internet. I made a promise when I started training with the UKF and I am bound by it. I can say this though...this stuff is serious and not for everyone. Especially the knife stuff. When I was first checking out the UKF and found out the techniques were different I was not pleased and almost didn't bother because of it. But I'm glad I did. 

If you have a UKF school in your area I'm sure they will be willing to share info with you and show you what it's all about. Or you could contact Mr. Pick yourself. I'm sure Mr. C....I mean GoldenDragon must know him.


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## Rainman (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Same as you have loyalties I do as well...  It is important that I honor them in a simular albeit less rigid format than the rules you must adhere to.   Kinda limits you on what you can say though which leaves you out of basically all arguments 

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Self Destruct,  I am about to go on a rant and I hope you do not take offense or take it personally.  IF any others are offended, my apologies now.  The entire tenor of this post just chaps my :moon: .  This is not against Self Destruct personally, but directed at ANYONE that feels *KNOWLEDGE* that they have gained form someone else, belongs to them!  If you are an AK stylist, even an offshoot, then your knowledge stems from Mr. Parker, and even though I was not blessed with his acquaintance, I think he would be appalled that people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own and then refuse to share with any one seeking knowledge, simply because they did not join his organization.  Now, SD, I respect the fact that you made a promise and honor dictates you keep said promise.  That is not what has my knickers in a twist, it's the fact that you had to make the :cuss: thing to begin with.  I will not, because I am in a fowl mood address some other things in this post, because it will become an personal attack that is probably undeserved and unwarranted.....:soapbox:


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## satans.barber (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I am in a fowl mood*



Seig feels like Chicken Tonight? Sorry :0)

I entirely agree though, knowledge should be shared. However, most closed systems that I've come accross really aren't that special, they just enjoy creating some sort of aura of mystery.

In my mind, if you have something which you are proud of most people are more willing to share it rather than guard it, questioning the quality of most closely guarded things anyway.

If people don't share things then they just die out, and one of our aims is to keep American Kenpo alive, so sharing is makes a lot more sense...

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 11, 2002)

Man..... oh Man............. :miffer: I'm glad he didn't let us know how he "REALLY"  feels............  geezzzzzzz:argue:


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Man..... oh Man............. :miffer: I'm glad he didn't let us know how he "REALLY"  feels............  geezzzzzzz:argue: *


I'm in a better mood today, ah the blessings of sleep.  Having said that.....:2xbird:


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## Klondike93 (Jun 11, 2002)

Seig, I see you have a new patch icon, can you post a larger picture somewhere and give a little insight into it?


:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

Here is the link to our School's patch
http://seigel.hypermart.net/mma.jpg

The meaning is nothing complex.  I kept the "House" of Kenpo, with the "Dragon" we aspire to and the "Tiger" we become.  At the "Heart" of it all is the Web of Knowledge. the Japanese writing that will be changed to Chinese simply says Mountaineer Martial Arts.


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## Klondike93 (Jun 11, 2002)

Cool looking patch.

Thanks for the info  


:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

Thanks for the feed back!


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Self Destruct,  I am about to go on a rant and I hope you do not take offense or take it personally.  IF any others are offended, my apologies now.  The entire tenor of this post just chaps my :moon: .  This is not against Self Destruct personally, but directed at ANYONE that feels KNOWLEDGE that they have gained form someone else, belongs to them!  If you are an AK stylist, even an offshoot, then your knowledge stems from Mr. Parker, and even though I was not blessed with his acquaintance, I think he would be appalled that people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own and then refuse to share with any one seeking knowledge, simply because they did not join his organization.  Now, SD, I respect the fact that you made a promise and honor dictates you keep said promise.  That is not what has my knickers in a twist, it's the fact that you had to make the :cuss: thing to begin with.  I will not, because I am in a fowl mood address some other things in this post, because it will become an personal attack that is probably undeserved and unwarranted.....:soapbox: *




No offense taken...you're certainly entiled to your opinion and as long as you disagree in a respectful way it is welcome.  I think you're getting the wrong idea so let me try to explain a little better.  I'll address each one of your arguments seperately so this will be easy to read...




> If you are an AK stylist, even an offshoot, then your knowledge stems from Mr. Parker, and even though I was not blessed with his acquaintance, I think he would be appalled that people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own and then refuse to share with any one seeking knowledge, simply because they did not join his organization.



The reason behind not spreading around the material on the internet has nothing to do with joining the organization or mystifying the art as someone else mentioned.  Nor does Mr. Pick think the knowledge belongs to him only.


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> The reason behind not spreading around the material on the internet has nothing to do with joining the organization or mystifying the art as someone else mentioned.  Nor does Mr. Pick think the knowledge belongs to him only. *



I originally wrote a mile long post and when I posted it only this came out. Damn it.....I'll try again tomorrow.


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Self Destruct,  I am about to go on a rant and I hope you do not take offense or take it personally.  IF any others are offended, my apologies now.  The entire tenor of this post just chaps my :moon: .  This is not against Self Destruct personally, but directed at ANYONE that feels KNOWLEDGE that they have gained form someone else, belongs to them!  If you are an AK stylist, even an offshoot, then your knowledge stems from Mr. Parker, and even though I was not blessed with his acquaintance, I think he would be appalled that people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own and then refuse to share with any one seeking knowledge, simply because they did not join his organization.  Now, SD, I respect the fact that you made a promise and honor dictates you keep said promise.  That is not what has my knickers in a twist, it's the fact that you had to make the :cuss: thing to begin with.  I will not, because I am in a fowl mood address some other things in this post, because it will become an personal attack that is probably undeserved and unwarranted.....:soapbox: *




Lets try this again!!!!

No offense taken...you're certainly entiled to your opinion and as long as you disagree in a respectful way it is welcome. I think you're getting the wrong idea so let me try to explain a little better. I'll address each one of your arguments seperately so this will be easy to read...

quote: If you are an AK stylist, even an offshoot, then your knowledge stems from Mr. Parker, and even though I was not blessed with his acquaintance, I think he would be appalled that people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own and then refuse to share with any one seeking knowledge, simply because they did not join his organization. 

The reason behind not spreading around the material on the internet has nothing to do with joining the organization or mystifying the art as someone else mentioned. Nor does Mr. Pick think the knowledge belongs to him. One reason is that he is strongly against learning Kenpo through books, videos, or internet. You need a human instructor in front of you to teach and correct you. You need to make contact and cause a reaction. Iron Sharpens Iron, Man Sharpens Man. If I were to post a technique it would be very difficult to do. Everything we do is so very specific from the way you turn your foot to achive proper body alignment at the very beginning, to the way you launch forward, to the way you make your block...and so on. I'd have to use a bunch of terminology that really wouldn't make sense to you. It would be impossible without being there to show you. Now say you take this flawed information that I gave you and tried it out. Now two things could happen. 
1.) You could say "this sucks, this would never work!" Now any time you hear the UKF mentioned all you have is a negative opinion caused by misinformation.
2.) You say "hey this is cool!" and you go show your buddy what some guy from the UKF taught you. He shows his buddy, and so on down the line until there's a group of people doing UKF material wrong. Either way it's a gross misrepresentation that ultimatly traces back to me.

Another reason is that there are some things you just don't teach to everybody. Things like neckbreaks, spine compressions, and how to butcher someone with a knife. Ed Parker himself is a prime example of this. He taught many people over the years but how many did he teach the Kenpo knife to? A very select few. Now how many people did he go into great detail with about the knife? One...mabye two at the most. He even wrote a book called "Speak with a Knife" that he decided to never publish and only let a few read the manuscript for that exact reason. Same goes with his book "Speak with a Club" although Ed Jr. may be publishing that one in the future.

Not joining the organization has nothing to do with it either. Mr. Pick trains many people from other organizations and schools. Some even outside of Kenpo. The Special Forces 10th Division being one of them. For the most part UKF schools are small and non-commercial. Not everyone who walks through the door is accepted as a student. You can't buy your way into the UKF. You have to be a serious, sincere, responsible person. To then go and post the material on the internet would undermind that whole process. Just as I told Rainman...go visit a UKF school if you're really interested and they would be more than happy to show you what we do in person, face to face.

Now, I'm sure if you're saying that Mr. Pick has no right to change things when you said "people take his gift, rearrange, call it their own". If thats what you're saying let me know and I'll discuss that in another post.



> Now, SD, I respect the fact that you made a promise and honor dictates you keep said promise.  That is not what has my knickers in a twist, it's the fact that you had to make the :cuss: thing to begin with



I didn't have to make any promise. I'm a grown man and enter all commitments with my eyes open. Those are my teachers wishes and I respect and agree with them. I spent a long time in the IKKA and the UKF is were I want to be.



> I will not, because I am in a fowl mood address some other things in this post, because it will become an personal attack that is probably undeserved and unwarranted



Bring it on. You can address anything you like. I stand by everything I say and I am willing to back it up. Like I said in the beginning...as long as you disagree in a respectfull way your opinion is welcome. I hope this all makes sense. My original post that was lost was much better than this one.


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## Self_Destruct (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




No, not really. I don't see it as an argument. When the discussion becomes an argument I'm no longer interested. That's what I like about this board versus many others. People can actually  disagree without acting like a buch of jack@sses. But anyway, I can discuss many things...I just won't post the actual written material.


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## Rainman (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Self_Destruct _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Argument is another word for debating a particular point of view.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 13, 2002)

Self Destruct has a good point in that he is following his teachers wishes.  We all must respect one of the most important values of the Art and that is Loyalty and Respect.  

If his teacher wishes to keep the material he shows to his student between them then so be it.  Many instructors do this and it should not be viewed as not sharing because he is....... but only with his personal student much like history dictates that we learned from father to son down.

His teacher IS sharing his art for what ever reason or value he gets (monetary or otherwise) so we must respect that.  

If we seek this exact same knowledge then we might should contact the Instructor directly and ask to learn that which what we seek in the proper manner.

just my thoughts.......

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 14, 2002)

I stand corrected.  My apologies


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 15, 2002)

I do agree with you that many go off and re-work Mr. Parkers material and then say it's theirs.  THAT CHAPS MY :moon: ALSO!  so I do agree with that..... but I also agree with what I outlined ..... there is a differnce.......

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 15, 2002)

Disagreement over, snowcones to everybody!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 16, 2002)

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *:asian: *


Does that mean someone is about to take an a@@ kickin?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

I just like Bubble gum flavor!!!:rofl:


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## Seig (Jun 20, 2002)

Note to Tess:
Add Bubble Gum to the shopping list......


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2002)

Note to Tess:
Get something to wipe the brown off Seig's nose too.


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## Seig (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *Note to Tess:
> Get something to wipe the brown off Seig's nose too.
> *


Comments like that will not get you invited up here when Mr C is in town.  You are only about three hours away!:revenge: :2xbird: :EG:


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2002)

:wah: :idea:  :moon:

I feel like I'm back in the military. Gotta kiss major booty to get anywhere. Woe is me. Never been good at that. :wah:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

What a crew......... hee heee.........   Just what I need .......... more projects..........lol.....:rofl: 

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *:wah: :idea:  :moon:
> 
> I feel like I'm back in the military. Gotta kiss major booty to get anywhere. Woe is me. Never been good at that. :wah:  *


Who's Major Booty?


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2002)

You should just be happy that you don't know. I was required to kiss Major Booty to get my next promotion and I just couldn't do it so I went to working for Uncle Sam as a civilian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

:rofl:


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2002)

It nost definately was a better choice. Twice the pay, a third the work!


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## Seig (Jun 21, 2002)

and the people you work with probably have half the brains!


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## Turner (Jun 21, 2002)

Sadly, you are correct. How did you know? The company does pretty much what I did in the military and it really frustrates me at times because I'm the person that corrects their mistakes before the finished 'product' is given to the Army. So I get to see their stupidity first hand.


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