# Who is qualified to grade?



## drunken mistress (Aug 25, 2004)

I started karate about fourteen months ago in Spain. Our style was Shukokai. I went to orange belt in that and my son to yellow tabs. Our teacher (4th Dan) left the country to go back to her old school in Wales. That was about eight months ago. The only karate teacher available in my area was Freestyle (2nd Dan). They are both very good teachers but very different. I have stayed in touch with the old one by email as she comes back to Spain occasionally. She did a lot of katas while the new teacher is very keen on mostly sparring. We want to do a grading soon but there is a dfference of opinion between these teachers. My first teacher claims that my current teacher doesn´t have the particular qualification to grade students. My current teacher claims that no separate qualification is necessary but that no-one should grade their own students and that she was wrong to do so. Who is right? My son and I would love to continue to grade for belts as we have improved a lot but we don´t know who is right on this issue. Anyone know the rulings for Europe?


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## gyaku-zuki queen (Aug 25, 2004)

hm... i dont think it matters who grades you up untill brown belt as long as they are a black?.. they have to be the same style as you are training in to grade you though. (i cant see why they would let someone grade someone in a different style) .. for black belt grading i know you have to be pretty high up there in ranks to grade someone though.
and as far as i know, a sensai can grade their own students. (not for black though.. you need a few people to do that) but up to brown you sensai can grade you.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 15, 2006)

It varies from style to style. But, I think that an instructor should be at least a 3rd degree black belt before grading student for rank. 1st and 2nd dans are still in that developmental stage.







			
				drunken mistress said:
			
		

> I started karate about fourteen months ago in Spain. Our style was Shukokai. I went to orange belt in that and my son to yellow tabs. Our teacher (4th Dan) left the country to go back to her old school in Wales. That was about eight months ago. The only karate teacher available in my area was Freestyle (2nd Dan). They are both very good teachers but very different. I have stayed in touch with the old one by email as she comes back to Spain occasionally. She did a lot of katas while the new teacher is very keen on mostly sparring. We want to do a grading soon but there is a dfference of opinion between these teachers. My first teacher claims that my current teacher doesn´t have the particular qualification to grade students. My current teacher claims that no separate qualification is necessary but that no-one should grade their own students and that she was wrong to do so. Who is right? My son and I would love to continue to grade for belts as we have improved a lot but we don´t know who is right on this issue. Anyone know the rulings for Europe?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 15, 2006)

No one should grade in a style they do not have rank in. 
If you test under each instructor you should have rank in 2 systems


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 15, 2006)

Your first Sensei I feel is partially correct.  Nidan should be able to grade to no more then Ik Kyu however.  I feel your current Sensei is wrong in saying no one should grade their own students.  Who else is going someone who doesn't know the system?


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## green meanie (Jul 16, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> No one should grade in a style they do not have rank in.
> If you test under each instructor you should have rank in 2 systems


 
Agreed. This would resolve the conflict. :asian:


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## Grenadier (Jul 16, 2006)

In general, I believe that shodan instructors should not be able to promote anyone beyond ikkyu (1st kyu), and that to promote someone to a dan ranking, the instructor in charge of the exam should be at least two ranks higher.  In some cases, though, promoting someone to one rank below isn't out of line at all.  For example, well-qualified instructors who have a nidan ranking should be allowed to promote someone to shodan, or a chief instructor who has an outstanding student should be allowed to promote him to one rank below his.  

It comes down to the instructor himself.  Obviously, the chief instructor of the dojo has the final say so, but there will be some times where less is not necessarily more!

I've seen many a nidan, or yes, even shodan, become excellent instructors, and are also solid judges of what is right and wrong.  On the flip side of the coin, I have seen many a very strong karate-ka of sandan rank (or even yondan) who simply weren't cut out for the teaching aspect, and would not be qualified to administer an examination.  That's not an insult by any means, since it simply says that some people are better suited to be instructors than others.  

Once you get to the higher ranks (rokyudan or higher in a judan system), then such promotions should only come from either the head of the style, or one of the senior sensei of the style.  Beyond that (selecting a kudan or judan), we enter an area that really is only touchable by the chief of the style, or the senior sensei (as a council) if the chief isn't alive.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 16, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> In general, I believe that shodan instructors should not be able to promote anyone beyond ikkyu (1st kyu), and that to promote someone to a dan ranking, the instructor in charge of the exam should be at least two ranks higher. In some cases, though, promoting someone to one rank below isn't out of line at all. For example, well-qualified instructors who have a nidan ranking should be allowed to promote someone to shodan, or a chief instructor who has an outstanding student should be allowed to promote him to one rank below his.
> 
> It comes down to the instructor himself. Obviously, the chief instructor of the dojo has the final say so, but there will be some times where less is not necessarily more!
> 
> ...


I agree. I have see Judan / Hanshi that are not teachers at all.  Can't test to their own standard and always change things in the middle of a test.  But think that they are great.  Then I have see Shodan's that are truly great.  One of my black belts has a great ability to teach in many ways I think he is better then me or could be.  I am a very good teacher but this guy is very unique in his ability to relay information.  He was doing this at 15 years old.  Now 21 he is a Nidan and finishing up his college education but when he returns home I can only imagine.


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## Haze (Jul 16, 2006)

I  would think that the Sensei is the most qualified to promote his own students. Who better knows their abilities and what they are capable of.
As for Dan grades, I would say you can grade to 2 grades below your own grade. Shodan grade given by Sandan is ok as far as I'm concerned


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## twendkata71 (Jul 16, 2006)

*Yes, And instructor should test his/her own students. Or if you go to a central organization testing. Aid in the testing procedures.*
*I am not so sure that 1st dans should do testing though. Just my opinion.*





			
				Haze said:
			
		

> I would think that the Sensei is the most qualified to promote his own students. Who better knows their abilities and what they are capable of.
> As far Dan grades, I would say you can grade to 2 grades below your own grade. Shodan grae given by Sandan is ok as far as I'm concerned


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## TimoS (Jul 17, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *I am not so sure that 1st dans should do testing though. Just my opinion.*



Last time we had black belt testing, and I think this is more or less standard procedure with us, we had a separate graduation college watching it. At the time the members were our style head (8. dan) and a 5. dan, a 4. dan and a 3. dan. I was testing for 1. dan and one guy from our dojo was testing for 4. dan. I think this is the way to go if/when you have a separate test. I was actually present once when sensei awarded two 5. dan without any testing to two of his long time students


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## Kacey (Jul 17, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> *Yes, And instructor should test his/her own students. Or if you go to a central organization testing. Aid in the testing procedures.*
> *I am not so sure that 1st dans should do testing though. Just my opinion.*



I would have to disagree with both of you - I *do not* think an instructor should test his/her own students, for exactly the reasons you give:  as an instructor, I know my students' capabilities _in class_ - the purpose of testing is to put students into a high-stress situation and see how they perform.  It would be too easy for me, as an instructor, to say "I know Johnny can perform that technique; he is just nervous" and pass him; when Johnny is in front of a different instructor, then he has to perform under greater stress.  

Also, if another instructor tests my students, I have independent confirmation of Johnny's abilities, and feedback on my instruction - if Johnny (and the rest of the class) all make the same mistake, then I know that I am teaching something incorrectly; if Johnny makes one mistake, and Janey a different mistake, and Joey yet another, then I know I need to work on making my instruction and feedback to students more uniform.  Yes, testing is for the students - but it is also an invaluable way for instructors to get feedback on their instruction, so they can provide better instruction in the future.  If I test my students myself, I lose that valuable feedback, and so do they - because a different voice giving commands and a different set of eyes will always see something different, which helps to improve the students' instruction, as well as helping to ensure consistency in technique.


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## JPH (Jul 17, 2006)

Grading and promotion testing is a matter of the requirements of the repective organization. It has been my experience that a student does not become a teacher until he/she has trained extensively and has actually passed the examination to become an instructor. Generally, the student is given this opportunity at the rank of 3rd or 4th degree black belt.

Once a student is promoted to the position of a certified instructor (sensei) then that person is empowered with the right to grade his or her own students. I have attended examinations where guest instructors were invited as judges, but they were always members of and instructors in the organization that was hosting the examination.

If the instructor is a member of a large organization, then he/she should be able to produce evidence of certification. If the teaching environment is a small club, then the teacher should be able to direct the students to the proper authority for promotions.

In any case when the teacher is a properly certified instructor it is all together proper for the teacher to grade the students.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 17, 2006)

> I *do not* think an instructor should test his/her own students


 
I broke away from my old organisation a few years ago for reasons that are between me and them . Now then who should grade my students if not me.  I sure as hell am not going to take them back to my old organisation, and damn few people know enough about what i teach to judge what standards my students should meet


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## Kacey (Jul 17, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I broke away from my old organisation a few years ago for reasons that are between me and them . Now then who should grade my students if not me.  I sure as hell am not going to take them back to my old organisation, and damn few people know enough about what i teach to judge what standards my students should meet



I certainly understand this problem; I also left my old organization a few years ago for reasons that are between me and them - but I will say that difficulties with getting an appropriate testing instructor was one of the reasons I left.  Luckily for me, my leaving was triggered by my instructor's leaving, so he is still available to test my students, as are several other seniors, who test each others' students as the occasion warrants.  In your circumstances, yes, I think you should test your own students, as other options are unavailable, but given other options, I would not test my own students.  As with many other topics that come up on this board, the options available to one practitioner are not always the options available to other practitioners, nor is the best option for one the best option for others.


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## karateka (Jul 18, 2006)

well if the question is who IS then that would depend on your organisation. some organisations require you to take an examiners course and others require a certain grade.

as for who should, a commity should be gatherd to decide, as it is not fair to say 3+ dan only. karate is in your head and heart, and never around your waist.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 21, 2006)

I see your point. I personally am tough when grading or judging my own students. Usually it is because I know they can do better.  Many times I do take my students to our Organizational headquarters for testing.  I still think it is easier for them to pass the test from the one at the Honbu dojo than at mine. 





			
				Kacey said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with both of you - I *do not* think an instructor should test his/her own students, for exactly the reasons you give: as an instructor, I know my students' capabilities _in class_ - the purpose of testing is to put students into a high-stress situation and see how they perform. It would be too easy for me, as an instructor, to say "I know Johnny can perform that technique; he is just nervous" and pass him; when Johnny is in front of a different instructor, then he has to perform under greater stress.
> 
> Also, if another instructor tests my students, I have independent confirmation of Johnny's abilities, and feedback on my instruction - if Johnny (and the rest of the class) all make the same mistake, then I know that I am teaching something incorrectly; if Johnny makes one mistake, and Janey a different mistake, and Joey yet another, then I know I need to work on making my instruction and feedback to students more uniform. Yes, testing is for the students - but it is also an invaluable way for instructors to get feedback on their instruction, so they can provide better instruction in the future. If I test my students myself, I lose that valuable feedback, and so do they - because a different voice giving commands and a different set of eyes will always see something different, which helps to improve the students' instruction, as well as helping to ensure consistency in technique.


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## eyebeams (Jul 21, 2006)

I've met a fair number of nidan and sandan who are only that rank because they don't see any point in paying further fees for a new peice of cloth, but who are very, very good.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jul 21, 2006)

I am also a very tough grader I test them on their ability and their potential.

As far as those that are Nidan & Sandan but don't have higher rank because fees I can understand that.  Rank should be earned not purchased.


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

drunken mistress said:


> I started karate about fourteen months ago in Spain. Our style was Shukokai. I went to orange belt in that and my son to yellow tabs. Our teacher (4th Dan) left the country to go back to her old school in Wales. That was about eight months ago. The only karate teacher available in my area was Freestyle (2nd Dan). They are both very good teachers but very different. I have stayed in touch with the old one by email as she comes back to Spain occasionally. She did a lot of katas while the new teacher is very keen on mostly sparring. We want to do a grading soon but there is a dfference of opinion between these teachers. My first teacher claims that my current teacher doesn´t have the particular qualification to grade students. My current teacher claims that no separate qualification is necessary but that no-one should grade their own students and that she was wrong to do so. Who is right? My son and I would love to continue to grade for belts as we have improved a lot but we don´t know who is right on this issue. Anyone know the rulings for Europe?


 

at least in most systems traditionaly once you hold a dan grade you may test some one to one level below your own. if he holds a second dan rank he could if he wished test some one for shodan. the desision to do so or not would rest with him.


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