# Thoughts on mats



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

_I'm posting this here, because my primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) has more in common with Jujutsu and Judo than Ueshiba's Aikido. We primarily use Judo falls (nearly identical to those I learned in Judo in the 1980's), and have Judo-style throws (from clinch, etc.) that don't seem to show up in Aikido. That said, I'd be interested in hearing from Aikido folks, as well._

I've been pondering mats lately. I came up through the ranks in Nihon Goshin Aikido training on a couple of different types. Early on, it was the folding gymnastics mats. Later (and for the longest period) it was the tatami-look mats that Swain and Zebra make (the 2" grappling mats). I always liked those. The surface firmness of the tatami-style mats makes for better footing, and I like them pretty well for falls. The mats I use now (provided by the rec center I teach at) are a bit firmer on top for rolls, but reasonably similar for falls.

For a while I used some cheaper mats I purchased. They are 2", and fairly soft. Harder to move well on, and softer for falls and rolls.

As I age, and as I see adults learning the art (and taking their falls, which are more punishing early on, until you get better at them), I see more benefit in softer mats. I know a couple of instructors who advocate some version of sprung floor, to reduce the felt impact.

So, my question is this: have you ever been on a flooring/mat combo that you really liked? If so, what was it? What would you put in if you had the choice?


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## Steve (Aug 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> _I'm posting this here, because my primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) has more in common with Jujutsu and Judo than Ueshiba's Aikido. We primarily use Judo falls (nearly identical to those I learned in Judo in the 1980's), and have Judo-style throws (from clinch, etc.) that don't seem to show up in Aikido. That said, I'd be interested in hearing from Aikido folks, as well._
> 
> I've been pondering mats lately. I came up through the ranks in Nihon Goshin Aikido training on a couple of different types. Early on, it was the folding gymnastics mats. Later (and for the longest period) it was the tatami-look mats that Swain and Zebra make (the 2" grappling mats). I always liked those. The surface firmness of the tatami-style mats makes for better footing, and I like them pretty well for falls. The mats I use now (provided by the rec center I teach at) are a bit firmer on top for rolls, but reasonably similar for falls.
> 
> ...


The tatami style, firmer zebra mats are much better for what we do. The softer mats (such as wrestling mats) are fine, but you're much more likely to catch a toe on them.  My little toes look like Vienna sausages they were broken so many times when I first started.  Once we moved to a new space and away from the wrestling mats, I never broke another toe.  The only disadvantage is that mat burns are more likely on the tatami styles.   but I'd rather have a mat burn than a broken toe any day.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> The tatami style, firmer zebra mats are much better for what we do. The softer mats (such as wrestling mats) are fine, but you're much more likely to catch a toe on them.  My little toes look like Vienna sausages they were broken so many times when I first started.  Once we moved to a new space and away from the wrestling mats, I never broke another toe.  The only disadvantage is that mat burns are more likely on the tatami styles.   but I'd rather have a mat burn than a broken toe any day.


You guys don't do much hard falling, do you (I assume you're talking about BJJ, though I may have forgotten other training you do)? I ask because I MUCH prefer a firm mat for softer falls and the shorter (even sometimes hard) falls from kneeling distance, and a bit less for harder falls. That said, I don't really mind the firmer mats even on things like shoulder throws and high hip throws, but that may simply be because it's what I'm used to.

EDIT: Oh, and I definitely agree about the mat burns. I've gotten a few hundred, and they heal pretty fast. Take those over a real injury any day.


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## Buka (Aug 28, 2017)

Mats are the most difficult thing to provide when opening a dojo. The damn mat companies seem to stick together and keep their prices expensive. Good mats, especially covering a fairly large area, are a tough nut to crack. I suppose cheap mats are an alternative, but I hate cheap mats, really can't do a lot with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> Mats are the most difficult thing to provide when opening a dojo. The damn mat companies seem to stick together and keep their prices expensive. Good mats, especially covering a fairly large area, are a tough nut to crack. I suppose cheap mats are an alternative, but I hate cheap mats, really can't do a lot with them.


I found some cheap mats that served well for about a year. I still break some of them out when we're doing hip throws and such, and toss them on top of the regular mats. They are soft and gushy, yet don't let me penetrate (feel the ground) on hard falls. Much better than I expected for the price, but still not nearly as good as a good mat (which is more than 4 times the price). I'd love to know what the margin is on those nice mats.


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## JP3 (Aug 28, 2017)

The floor at my place is a "sprung floor," in design but not material.   It's a design I heard someone call "The Denver Floor" before, but I have no idea why.

The way it's made is you lay out an array of 4'x8' particle board sheets, and adhere foam blocks (we used 3'x3'x4' ones) stuck to the "underside" of the particle board (usually the 3/4" thickness, with the  foam block "side" now oriented Down.  You lay out the floor completely with this arrangement. Then, using similar 4'x8' sheets of either 1/2" or 3/8" sheets, but arranged in the opposite pattern on top of the thicker bottom underlayment sheets (witht he foam) to create the "floating floor" aspect, securing these only at the ends to the next set, with overlapping links so as to not bind up upon impact.

Then, when all of that is done, you put some sort of foam topper on it (this is where your "feel" for what type of surface you want can be customized, I personally like a good, solid surface for quick movement of feet and to hold people up so they don't damage ankles), and the last thing is the very top, which can be either a canvas (my favorite but pretty expensive) or vinyl.

Shoot me a PM and I can get the specifics for anyone who wants to know exactly how to put one of these floors together, including where to order the best (we've found) foam blocks.


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## Anarax (Aug 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> _I'm posting this here, because my primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) has more in common with Jujutsu and Judo than Ueshiba's Aikido. We primarily use Judo falls (nearly identical to those I learned in Judo in the 1980's), and have Judo-style throws (from clinch, etc.) that don't seem to show up in Aikido. That said, I'd be interested in hearing from Aikido folks, as well._
> 
> I've been pondering mats lately. I came up through the ranks in Nihon Goshin Aikido training on a couple of different types. Early on, it was the folding gymnastics mats. Later (and for the longest period) it was the tatami-look mats that Swain and Zebra make (the 2" grappling mats). I always liked those. The surface firmness of the tatami-style mats makes for better footing, and I like them pretty well for falls. The mats I use now (provided by the rec center I teach at) are a bit firmer on top for rolls, but reasonably similar for falls.
> 
> ...



My school has changed mat types several times, we use them to spar, roll and fall on. I personally like the firmer mats, I dislike the feeling of sinking into the floor on softer mats. I understand your point on aging and the different mat firmness makes. I believe thick firmer mats provide more traction and overall support than softer ones.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Anarax said:


> My school has changed mat types several times, we use them to spar, roll and fall on. I personally like the firmer mats, I dislike the feeling of sinking into the floor on softer mats. I understand your point on aging and the different mat firmness makes. I believe thick firmer mats provide more traction and overall support than softer ones.


Yeah, me too. That's why I'm leaning more toward the idea of a sprung floor or something like that, when I have a chance to make a choice. I love falling on soft mats, but I hate throwing on them. And sparring or any live practice is just no fun on them. My old instructor has soft mats on top of firm ones (he decided the firm ones were costing him new students). I think he would be better served with the reverse.


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## Steve (Aug 28, 2017)

I thought real training is in concrete or at least a wood floor.   You can't train self defense in a mat.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

Steve said:


> I thought real training is in concrete or at least a wood floor.   You can't train self defense in a mat.


You can't train self-defense without one, IMO.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2017)

More importantly. Is that the flamingo guy?


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## Steve (Aug 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You can't train self-defense without one, IMO.


That's an enlightened attitude.


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## skribs (Dec 4, 2017)

My Taekwondo school has the Tatami-style mats.  We also have folding gymnastic-style mats we pull out for rolling, but they're not a whole lot softer.

I will say I do not like the puzzle mats.  I got some of those to practice at home, and it was better without the mat.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2017)

skribs said:


> My Taekwondo school has the Tatami-style mats.  We also have folding gymnastic-style mats we pull out for rolling, but they're not a whole lot softer.
> 
> I will say I do not like the puzzle mats.  I got some of those to practice at home, and it was better without the mat.


I like the puzzle mats okay for light ground work (one of the rooms I've taught in had those), and they are maybe 10% better than the floor for rolls - for falls they are somehow worse than the floor. For rolls and standard falls, I like the tatami-style mats. If there's going to be a lot of high falling with intensity, I like a softer surface and sometimes just put cheap 2" gym mats on top of the regular mats.


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## marques (Dec 9, 2017)

I always like to say I trained Judo throws on wood floor or even concrete for long time. It required more control (and not full speed throw) and made us aware of out-of-dojo floors. It was a bit hardcore, I recognise.

Once, on a seminar someone was put matts on the floor. When the instructor arrived, required to remove everything before starting. 

Sorry for not really helping about matts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2017)

marques said:


> I always like to say I trained Judo throws on wood floor or even concrete for long time. It required more control (and not full speed throw) and made us aware of out-of-dojo floors. It was a bit hardcore, I recognise.
> 
> Once, on a seminar someone was put matts on the floor. When the instructor arrived, required to remove everything before starting.
> 
> Sorry for not really helping about matts.


I do think it's useful to train throws on harder surfaces. It's a tricky thing to do with some throws, and requires good control by both uke and nage. For me, I like firmer mats for this reason.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> I thought real training is in concrete or at least a wood floor.   You can't train self defense in a mat.



While it's not a bad idea to do falls on a hard surface at least occasionally, it's probably not ideal to train on concrete. There's a huge difference between a few dozen falls 3-4 times a week and a couple falls period.

I like the puzzle mats for ease of placement and storage. We have the 1.5" mats sold HERE. They also have a 2" mat, if you prefer.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 9, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> While it's not a bad idea to do falls on a hard surface at least occasionally, it's probably not ideal to train on concrete. There's a huge difference between a few dozen falls 3-4 times a week and a couple falls period.
> 
> I like the puzzle mats for ease of placement and storage. We have the 1.5" mats sold HERE. They also have a 2" mat, if you prefer.


I've not found a puzzle mat that feels anything like as good for falls as the tatami-style (and many folks find those too firm). They seem too hard - slapping on them hurts, without even falling. Admittedly, I've only experienced 2 or 3 different ones.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've not found a puzzle mat that feels anything like as good for falls as the tatami-style (and many folks find those too firm). They seem too hard - slapping on them hurts, without even falling. Admittedly, I've only experienced 2 or 3 different ones.



Most puzzle mats are 1/2-3/4" thick. Big difference. These are specifically intended for grappling. If you're ever in Colorado, stop by and I'll toss you down on them so you can try them out.


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## Charlemagne (Dec 9, 2017)

I've taken throws on harder surfaces, but honestly that is not something l enjoy.  I bought some 2 inch wrestling mat for my home training, and it works great.  Of all the mats I have tried, including the high-end Fuji and Zebra BJJ mats, good old fashioned wrestling mats are my favorite to train on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 10, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most puzzle mats are 1/2-3/4" thick. Big difference. These are specifically intended for grappling. If you're ever in Colorado, stop by and I'll toss you down on them so you can try them out.


I'll take you up on that some day, DD. I have some bits of family out in the Aurora area, and may eventually make it out there to visit them. I'd love to find that I like those mats as well as some of the others. They're easy to store, and you don't end up with the toe-eating gaps most other mats have.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 10, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> I've taken throws on harder surfaces, but honestly that is not something l enjoy.  I bought some 2 inch wrestling mat for my home training, and it works great.  Of all the mats I have tried, including the high-end Fuji and Zebra BJJ mats, good old fashioned wrestling mats are my favorite to train on.


What is the difference in feel between the Zebra mats you tried and the wrestling mats? Do you happen to know which Zebra mats they were? I've been on a few different Zebra mats, so it'd help me get a baseline.


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## marques (Dec 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I do think it's useful to train throws on harder surfaces. It's a tricky thing to do with some throws, and requires good control by both uke and nage. For me, I like firmer mats for this reason.


Some techniques where not performed exactly as they should be, up to good control. I don’t think it is the solution, but it (training throwings in concrete) can be a rich experience, especially for the ones training for self defence more than for art or sport.


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## Charlemagne (Dec 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What is the difference in feel between the Zebra mats you tried and the wrestling mats? Do you happen to know which Zebra mats they were? I've been on a few different Zebra mats, so it'd help me get a baseline.



The wrestling mats have more give. Plus, they come in a roll, so once they are taped together (or in some of them now, velcroed together) you don't have to worry about catching your toes in between the mats.  The Zebra mats, along with the Fuji, etc. come in squares that are pushed up against one another.  Even if they are tight, there is a chance that you can catch your toes in the gap.  

I got my wrestling mats from McBryde Mats, and I have been pretty happy with them.  They are one of the few companies I found that had 2 inch wrestling mats, and I wanted the extra thickness for taking falls.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 10, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> The wrestling mats have more give. Plus, they come in a roll, so once they are taped together (or in some of them now, velcroed together) you don't have to worry about catching your toes in between the mats.  The Zebra mats, along with the Fuji, etc. come in squares that are pushed up against one another.  Even if they are tight, there is a chance that you can catch your toes in the gap.
> 
> I got my wrestling mats from McBryde Mats, and I have been pretty happy with them.  They are one of the few companies I found that had 2 inch wrestling mats, and I wanted the extra thickness for taking falls.


I've found some mats that roll out (Dolamur and a couple of others have them) that are the same feel as the tatami-style mats. I definitely prefer the roll-out mats, both for leave-down application (taped in place) and temporary use (we just use velcro straps to hold them together, as the ones we use are carpet-topped). I go back and forth on using mats with more give. For grappling-only use, I do prefer it. Once we add in sparring, kicking, etc., I prefer the firmer mats.

I remember looking into McBryde some time ago. They looked like good mats, and have both MA and wrestling versions, IIRC. They might have been the first ones I saw with the big roll-out mats.


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## Hanshi (Dec 12, 2017)

Back when I opened my own dojo I put in a spring floor with a vinyl covered foam top.  It is still in use in my old school - I sold my half of it to my partner who runs it now.  But I have taken falls on about every surface there is, from tatami to a carpet over concrete.  Since I taught judo, aikido and jujitsu, I emphasized falling techniques and spent a great deal of time drilling my students.  I don't like the folding mats having broken an ankle on one many years ago.  Nor do I care for carpet that much.  Tatami is great as is a decent spring floor and some of the better foam mats.  Being much older and with ra, I can not take any kind of fall though I still know how to.  I have spent, as well as my students, much time throwing and falling outside on grass lawns; and that actually works out quite well.  I also agree that mat burns and bruises are much preferable to injuries from lousy mats.


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## Charlemagne (Dec 12, 2017)

Hanshi said:


> I also agree that mat burns and bruises are much preferable to injuries from lousy mats.



Absolutely.  Thankfully, if you get the right mats, you can avoid mat burns for the most part as well.  That's another one of the things I did not like about the Fuji mats.  I haven't had a single mat burn on my wrestling mat, but I had plenty when I trained at a school that used Fuji.


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## JR 137 (Dec 13, 2017)

marques said:


> I always like to say I trained Judo throws on wood floor or even concrete for long time. It required more control (and not full speed throw) and made us aware of out-of-dojo floors. It was a bit hardcore, I recognise.
> 
> Once, on a seminar someone was put matts on the floor. When the instructor arrived, required to remove everything before starting.
> 
> Sorry for not really helping about matts.


One of the universities I worked at has a Judo team.  At least once every semester, the teacher takes the group outside and has them roll.  Beginners stay on the grass, everyone else starts on the grass then goes over to the parking lot.

He was a great guy.  The first time I saw him doing that I had no idea what was going on.  He told me he ran the Judo club and said “How often are these guys going to get attacked in the dojo?  If they can’t do it a few times outside the dojo, what’s the point?”  He instantly earned my respect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2017)

Hanshi said:


> Back when I opened my own dojo I put in a spring floor with a vinyl covered foam top.  It is still in use in my old school - I sold my half of it to my partner who runs it now.  But I have taken falls on about every surface there is, from tatami to a carpet over concrete.  Since I taught judo, aikido and jujitsu, I emphasized falling techniques and spent a great deal of time drilling my students.  I don't like the folding mats having broken an ankle on one many years ago.  Nor do I care for carpet that much.  Tatami is great as is a decent spring floor and some of the better foam mats.  Being much older and with ra, I can not take any kind of fall though I still know how to.  I have spent, as well as my students, much time throwing and falling outside on grass lawns; and that actually works out quite well.  I also agree that mat burns and bruises are much preferable to injuries from lousy mats.


I had a chance to play on a sprung floor once. It was pretty nice even without mats (though easy to get bruised). With some firm mats to go on top, it would have been been heavenly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Absolutely.  Thankfully, if you get the right mats, you can avoid mat burns for the most part as well.  That's another one of the things I did not like about the Fuji mats.  I haven't had a single mat burn on my wrestling mat, but I had plenty when I trained at a school that used Fuji.


The tatami-surface (I'm assuming that's what the Fuji mats you're referring to had) gives better traction when sweaty, but will deliver amazing mat burns. I actually changed contact points on one of my sacrifice techniques when my instructor switched to tatami-surface mats.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 14, 2017)

I have always loved Swain and Zebra mats.  I feel that they are the best with wrestling mats coming in next followed by puzzle mats.  Grass is a great natural mat if you are training outdoors.  Love training on grass.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 15, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have always loved Swain and Zebra mats.  I feel that they are the best with wrestling mats coming in next followed by puzzle mats.  Grass is a great natural mat if you are training outdoors.  Love training on grass.


I love grass on the right ground. There's an area in the city I grew up in where the grass and ground make a good (if firm) natural mat for training even reasonably high falls. In my current front yard, it's too soft (falls would be nice, but we'd all have ankle and knee issues). At my previous house, the ground, even under grass, was as hard as a hotel room floor.


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## donald1 (Dec 15, 2017)

IMO, when you do throws on concrete long enough you eventually learn to appreciate mats...


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 15, 2017)

donald1 said:


> IMO, when you do throws on concrete long enough you eventually learn to appreciate mats...


That usually happens after the first throw. Actually, usually just before it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 16, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have always loved Swain and Zebra mats.  I feel that they are the best with wrestling mats coming in next followed by puzzle mats.  Grass is a great natural mat if you are training outdoors.  Love training on grass.



I would love to have some traditional wrestling mats. We just don't have any place to store them. Since we're at the Y, we can't leave stuff out between classes. So for us, the (extra thick) puzzle mats are the best compromise.


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