# Panhandlers



## RandomPhantom700 (Nov 29, 2004)

I hate getting panhandled.  

No matter how I deal with it I leave feeling like a chump.  If I tell them to go bother someone else, I feel guilty as sin over the possibility that they're telling the truth; if I go ahead and give them the couple of bucks (which is what I almost always end up doing), I feel like an idiot who's been used to buy beer or drugs.  

It doesn't happen that often, but whenever it does, I end up in one of those split-second guilt v. realism situations.  I usually just give them a few dollars; if they're lying, I'm not losing much, and if they're telling the truth, I've helped someone.  

Does this happen much with anyone here, and if so how do you deal with it?  

P.S. I just remembered that I started a thread a long-time back about another instance, but since I've already typed all this out, and the other one's fairly old, I'll go ahead and post.


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## raedyn (Nov 29, 2004)

Here's an idea of how to deal with this.

If they say they need 2 bucks for a cup of coffee, walk with them over to the nearest coffee shop and buy them a cup of coffee. Or a sandwich or whatever it is they need (within budgetary reason). This way you know your money is going where you feel good about it going. It's a very human awy to do it. 

Personally, I've never done this but I think it's a great idea and I know my father does it sometimes.


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 29, 2004)

I usually feel pretty awful if I don't give something - but I don't often give, because I don't want to stand on the street, esp. in the evening, scrounging through my purse and wallet.  If I have a few bucks in my pocket and it's easy to get to, sure.

Once I saw a guy with a sign, looking for $$ for a ride out of town - I was with friends who were going into a sandwich shop, so I asked if he wanted something to eat, and bought him a sandwich.  That made me feel the best - because I knew it was important.  Not that someone who wants the money for alcohol doesn't think it is important... but I'm much happier to know I'm helping to feed someone or get them warm clothes, rather than who knows what.

Maybe I'm too much of a control freak, though.  I think some of the best part about giving is just in the giving itself.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 29, 2004)

> Mark 14:7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.



For as long as there are those who do not distribute their (extreme) wealth among those who are in need, because (IMO) they've no need of such mass wealth, there will be many of us in the middle who have to share the burden according to the concious of our hearts. 
I too see the poor in my city and have at times been among them and wondered why I am not helped as I could be. But often times I am, by friends and family. 

Many of these so-called pan handlers are those who do not want to work. Or are willing to work to cover immediate needs.  We really cannot judge them or despise them. 

It's hard to tell who's conning you and who isn't. But give according to your abilities and sacrifice and have a good feeling in your heart and don't worry about them. If you have the means then provide them with a day's work. Raise them a bit of dignity if you can by letting them earn what you give. 

My words are as old and familiar because we've been taught this by the Master over and over again.


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## Adept (Nov 29, 2004)

Well, I have kind of a reputation for being a mean, cold, hard, SOB. Without being rude, I refuse to give anyone any money or anything else, ever. And I feel not a jot of guilt.


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## Ping898 (Nov 29, 2004)

Truthfully pan handlers make me uncomfortable, especially the ones who come up to you as your walking or when you are in your car, I feel like they are invading my personal space and I don't like that.
I don't often carry cash, so don't give away what little I have, but I do try and support the charities and soup kitchens that cater to the food and clothing needs people on the street.  I'd rather do that cause then I don't feel like I am getting conned.  Admittedly not everyone will go to these places, but hopefully it does some good....


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## shesulsa (Nov 29, 2004)

I tell a little white lie and say I purchase everything with my debit card and offer them food, blanket, jacket, to buy them a hot meal, etc.

 It's often they are carrying a gas can saying they need gas for their car.  In this case, I've offered to buy them a gallon of gas (with my handy-dandy debit card, of course) and I have never once had any of them take me up on it.

 I also happen to know exactly where the YMCA, YWCA, free clinic and Salvation Army are and can direct anyone to those locations so they may sleep for a few hours or get some job training, etc.

 I truly don't have much to give away - I truly budget to the penny and I make the two I currently have in my purse rub together until sparks fly.  But I do have growing children who outgrow and outuse clothing and toys all the time and I always have something like that in my car to take to Goodwill on my errands, so I gladly offer that.

 I try to keep crackers and canned food or water in the car so they can have that.

 But the fact remains that the homeless need to wash their clothes, collect money to buy more food or obtain housing, collect money to renew their ID card or driver's license, etcetera.


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## Oak Bo (Nov 29, 2004)

I dont feel bad for them. We all have to work, why can't they?
 And I dont feel bad when I tell them to go away a bother someone else. Why would I!? That's silly.


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## shesulsa (Nov 29, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> I dont feel bad for them. We all have to work, why can't they?


 With all due respect, many of them made stupid choices, were abused and ran away, lost everything and have no one to turn to and once one's appearance begins to wane, it is increasingly difficult to get a job.  Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?



			
				Oak Bo}And I dont feel bad when I tell them to go away a bother someone else. Why would I!? That's silly.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Um, I really hope you're being sarcastic, cuz that's hard to read in this format.  You are, aren't you?


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## Ping898 (Nov 29, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> With all due respect, many of them made stupid choices, were abused and ran away, lost everything and have no one to turn to and once one's appearance begins to wane, it is increasingly difficult to get a job. Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?


One of the biggest problems is even if they are able to clean themselves up they also have no phone number.  Few people hire someone the second they come into an interview no matter how good the person is.  There is this great program in NY I think, where for like $4 a month a homeless person can get voicemail/ phone number to use for employers.  I read a few stories about some of the people it helped.  Problem is the homeless are everywhere and some of the programs that can provide a few extras that might be needed to land a job or housing aren't everywhere.....


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## Sarah (Nov 29, 2004)

I didnt know what a Pan Handler was until reading this.....

Dont get it in NZ, I know there are homeless around, I personally have not seen any!

But we do have 'window washers' that will wash your car windscreen when you stop at the lights, some of them can be a bit annoying........had one a few weeks back was soooo funny, I shook my head and said no, but he came up to my window and said..."here's the thing ma'am...me and the other window washers have just come out of a team building meeting (via the internet), we were told if there is a car with a lady that resemble a Miss New Zealand we have to wash their windscreen for free"

I think I gave him about $10 in change, just because he made me laugh!


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## Oak Bo (Nov 29, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> With all due respect, many of them made stupid choices, were abused and ran away, lost everything and have no one to turn to and once one's appearance begins to wane, it is increasingly difficult to get a job. Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nightingale (Nov 29, 2004)

I used to carry around nutra-grain bars in my brief case.  I'd hand them to people who asked me for money.  It was easy to tell the needy ones... they were the ones who kept asking me whenever I walked by, even after they knew they'd only get a granola bar.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> No, I dont feel sorry for them and wont. I bust my butt to make a living, if I can do it, so can they. So they made some bad choices, we all have. If you want it bad enough you do what it takes . Too many whiners and complainers in society today. A lot of People in America are turning soft, and lazy I see it every day, and it's really sad.
> 
> People need to step up and take responsibility for themselves and their actions instead of all this other crap that we see day in and day out.


 I happen to know what it's like to be 5 dollars away from homeless and I assure you it had absolutely nothing to do with my being lazy.  It had much much more to do with my ex-husband's laziness.  

 Though I agree that we live in the victim generation, your post leans towards callousness and I have a hard time believing that you really think that gumption is the sole answer to homelessness and poverty in the United States.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?


 By the way, could you address my question, please?


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## Zepp (Nov 30, 2004)

If I have some loose change in my pocket that I don't need, I usually just toss it to them.  I figure, so what if they put it toward buying booze or drugs?  If I were homeless, that's probably what I'd spend it on.

If I don't have anything that I'm willing to part with, I politely tell them so.  At worst, they wish me a nice day.  At best, they thank me for being more polite than the last person they asked, and then wish me a nice day.  I'm still trying to make my way in the world, so I don't feel especially guilty for not giving them anything.

In the past, when I lived in a slightly different area, we would put bags of our recyclables outside our apartment for the homeless and poor immigrant families to come pick up.  (There was no recycling program available in this area.) That way, some needy person hauls away our garbage in a way that helps the environment, and someone else pays them for it.  Works for me.


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## sifu Adams (Nov 30, 2004)

I have on vary little and know it isnot easy.  however I done what I could to get out of it and now hold a 4 year degree and work as a supervisor for general Motors. the way I handle it.  I will give to the ones who are singing, dancing, playing a drum, ect.  they may not be good at it, but they are trying.  they are doing something to earn the money. that is worth giving a few dollers to.  I they are laying their asleep. sorry.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 30, 2004)

Zepp said:
			
		

> If I have some loose change in my pocket that I don't need, I usually just toss it to them.  I figure, so what if they put it toward buying booze or drugs?  If I were homeless, that's probably what I'd spend it on.
> 
> If I don't have anything that I'm willing to part with, I politely tell them so.  At worst, they wish me a nice day.  At best, they thank me for being more polite than the last person they asked, and then wish me a nice day.  I'm still trying to make my way in the world, so I don't feel especially guilty for not giving them anything.
> 
> In the past, when I lived in a slightly different area, we would put bags of our recyclables outside our apartment for the homeless and poor immigrant families to come pick up.  (There was no recycling program available in this area.) That way, some needy person hauls away our garbage in a way that helps the environment, and someone else pays them for it.  Works for me.




At least you got a good attitude even if you're unable to help out with money. Just taking a couple of minutes (or even less) to chat them up at least reminds them that they are human beings and are still worth talking to. 
Yes, you might hit the wrong one who'll pester you to no end til you give or happen to catch one who's having a real bad day... but then you are studying MA right?  
Point is that we are all put here to help one another as best as we can. A simple thought or kind word goes a long way.  I usually think about if I know where the next couple of bucks are going to go (a soda or something like that) then hey, I can squeeze a crowbar into my wallet and give a buck or two that'll cost me that soda.  
You're also right... so what if they're going to buy booze or drugs with it... better than them committing a crime to acquire it eh? 
Unless you've been down there yourself and have had to literally claw your way back up to being human again... I wouldn't despise these people. Some are truly trying.  I ought to know.. been there done that. 

 :asian:


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## Cruentus (Nov 30, 2004)

I am often ashamed at the insensitivity of humankind when these sorts of discussions come up. No one WANTS to be homeless. If someone is homeless, they got there because they drew a short straw...period. An upper middle class or wealthy kid can ****-up all through high school and manage to get by enough to ****-up at schools like MI State or Western MI (no offense to those who go there and who work hard) and manage to get by enough to ****-up a few first time jobs before daddy feels they're "ready" to get a Kush job at his company where they can work for 60K a year starting at 35 hours a week, with no bills because mommy bought his first starter home, etc. etc. etc.

Or perhaps a wealthy kid can grow up a C student to be a coke and alcahol addict, bankrupt and fail a few businesses that daddy sets up for him, yet still become president of the United States.

I think you get the idea. Some can ****-up all they want, and someone will pick them up after they fall, again and again. Others have the cards stacked against them from the start, and can't afford to ****-up at all. Some kids grow up parentless or with abusive parents in poor communities with very little choices. What about them? What about the woman with the abusive husband who flee's with no where to go? What about someone who loses their job, can't make rent, gets evicted, etc., etc. How come someone like GW Bush or Ted Kennedy (to be politically unbiased) can get a DUI or two, yet still be employed and still be able to drive, when if the lower income person gets the DUI, they bankrupt themselves on court fee's too often lose their license and spend a few weeks in jail? Without a license and without being able to come to work for a few weeks, joe shmo becomes quickly unemployed, can't drive to get another job, loses the apartment, etc., etc.

I could go on with real examples that I have personally seen where people who already have the cards stacked against them ****-up once and it leads to a downward spiral that they are unable to turn around. I agree that most homeless did something wrong to aid them getting there, but don't think that they didn't have the cards stacked against them to begin with. So please do me the small favor to NOT have the nerve to give some ******** line about pulling yourself up from your bootstraps during this season of giving (and of elevated unemployment rates and poor economy) while you sit in your cozy chair with your latte' clicking away on your dell discussing how lazy the poor is. 

Now, the unfortunate thing is that giving the homeless a dollar or two when they ask may seem like the right thing to do, but it usually doesn't really help them or the situation in the long run. Plus, you could be putting yourself in a terrible self-defense situation depending on the circumstance and who you are and who they are. So this is how I usually handle things:

#1. I generally don't give money to pan-handlers. If they just ask for money with no explination, I don't. I try to donate money and goods to charities for the disadvantaged every year where I know that my money will be used to truely combat the problem, rather then being used to fullfill a short-term need that doesn't really help the problem in the long run.

#2. There are some people who have an explaination as to why they need something from you. These are either 1. people truely in need, or 2. total scammers. Most, I think, are total scammers. But some aren't. How do you weed them out? Total scammers want your money rather then your help, where as people truely in need will gladly take your help. So, I become overly generous with my help rather then my money.

Example: I was at a gas station when a man asked me for a few dollars to fill his tank of gas. I asked him why...or what happened to him that he would be in this bind. He had told me that his house was wiped out by a tornado (which had hit the day before as I knew) and that he and his family were on their way to his sisters about 4 hours away. They had no money and they had lost everything, basically, so they were going to stay with her. I looked over and saw the beat up old car hap-hazardly packed tight with some salvaged belongings, and a wife and a kid in the car. I asked what they needed to get to his sisters safely. He said he needed a full tank and maybe a few bucks for some food because they hadn't eaten today. He said that whatever I could give was fine, and that he would try to pay me back somehow...offered to exchange addresses or something like that. So, I paid the clerk and gave the man a full tank of gas. He was overjoyed and greatful and wanted to mail me the money back, and told him I wouldn't except him paying me back. I then gave him some money for food, and told him Merry Christmas. 

In that example, I weighed the situation carefully, I saw he was in need and that he would have been having to go to elaborate measures to scam me out of a few bucks if he was scamming me. It was clear to me that he wasn't, and I was glad to have been able to help.

In a similar situation, I had a guy approach me at a Sandwhich joint outside. He said his car ran out of gas and that he needed to get home. I asked if he wanted me to call someone on my phone to get help; he said no with some elaborate reason, but basically he only wanted money. So, I asked where his car was parked, and he said the gas station down the street. With that I offered to meet him over there so that I could fill his tank for him. He eventually ended up walking away empty handed and pissed.

In that example, he clearly was a panhandler who was trying to scam me out of a few dollars rather then someone who was in a bind. Sure, he probably was in need or he wouldn't have been pan-handling, but I would rather give money to a charity where I can be sure it'll be a help; and I especially won't give money to someone trying to scam me.

So, that is how I handle the rare circumstances when someone has a story to tell. I offer generousity and help rather then a dollar.

Try it sometime. Buy a guy a sandwhich if he says he needs money for food once and a while if you can afford to, or offer someone help if it won't scew up your schedule too badly. Your life will be that much more enriched by it, I gaurantee.

#3. Just a side note....if you are at risk, do not even entertain panhandlers. It's just bad self-defense. I am armed all the time and ready when a stranger approaches; plus I am a fairly large male who is less likely to be victimized. I make sure the cards are stacked in my favor if the **** goes down before I entertain the idea of helping someone out. If you are a woman or a male who is at risk, don't put yourself in a bad spot. Stats. show that 1/3 of all homeless are armed with a blade, and there are a few who might be crazy enough to use it on you. So don't put yourself in a bad spot and get robbed, hurt, or killed for your generousity.

Sorry for the long rant...

Seacrest out..

PJMOD


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## Adept (Nov 30, 2004)

Now, I dont know how things are in the USA, but in Australia we have a very good welfare system. They will give you housing, unemployment benefits, disability pension, basically everything you need to get yourself back on your feet. There is really no excuse for someone to be living on the street and begging. I feel no pity for them. I'm callous, and I'm comfortable with that.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2004)

Well, here in the major cities there is a waiting list for some benefits.  When I left California, there was a two-year waiting list for housing assistance.  There are not enough donations to the food banks to feed even 25% of our indigent populus.  The cost of living is so high it is extremely difficult to get by even on government assistance.   Families who are having a hard time can't be together on assistance, they must split up in order to get assistance - especially housing - leaving one in housing and one on the street and divorced as required.

 I guess if one is not a spiritual person or just doesn't give a good God darn about the sanctity of human life, the importance of humility, the heavenly mandate that we who walk this plane are all brethren who must look out for one another, the need to not only give a helping hand but to get one from time to time as well, the value of generosity in the face of poverty, the idea of approaching life from a standpoint of gratitude and living from the heart, one is a shell and must, therefore be calloused.

 I guess that since I have been the recipient of another's generosity, I fell compelled - no, driven - to pay it back and pay it forward.  If one lives as a shell and refuses to connect with humankind in this manner based on some vile need to hoard one's assets, snack food and pocket change, so they must be judged in the end and so they will reap when they are in need.

 I guess people like me and Paul have the incredible task of making up for ignorant fools who can't put their own face on the panhandlers in front of them.  

 Georgia Ketchmark


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 30, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Now, I dont know how things are in the USA, but in Australia we have a very good welfare system. They will give you housing, unemployment benefits, disability pension, basically everything you need to get yourself back on your feet. There is really no excuse for someone to be living on the street and begging. I feel no pity for them. I'm callous, and I'm comfortable with that.


When I visited Australia I was very very impressed with the dole and the social support systems.  If I may make a broad generalization - it's much better there than it is here in the USA.  MUCH.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> When I visited Australia I was very very impressed with the dole and the social support systems. If I may make a broad generalization - it's much better there than it is here in the USA. MUCH.


 I digress.  The only travelling I've done outside of the contiguious United States is to Mexico and the Hawaiian Islands.  I got to see some serious poverty in both places.  So I'm not familiar with how they do things Down Under or in the UK.

 If the support system is so excellent, one might wonder about panhandlers more than one might here, I suppose.  Please excuse me if I came off as harsh to you Adept.  And I don't know where Oak Bo is from.


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## Oak Bo (Nov 30, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It had much much more to do with my ex-husband's laziness.


 My point exactly.


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## Oak Bo (Nov 30, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Though I agree that we live in the victim generation, your post leans towards callousness and I have a hard time believing that you really think that gumption is the sole answer to homelessness and poverty in the United States.


 The sole answer absolutley not.
 Unfortuntely, there has to be many answers to help solve this problem in the U.S. The ones I feel bad for are the young children that lost there folks in a house fire, or the 88 year old lady down the street who lost her husband 12 years ago, and now has no one to help her as the Diabetes takes her sight. Or the poor folks who have some mental disabilities and are rambling to themselves all day. Now that's sad and terrible, and all of us need to find away to pull together and help each other out with those types of things. We know the politicians don't give a damn unless it's time from some votes, and then its all swept under the carpet once that person is in office.

 The one's I wont feel sorry for are those that can help themselves but dont or wont, or take the easy way out by asking for a hand out, or are looking for  some way to scam the public.


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## someguy (Nov 30, 2004)

Where I live I see a guy every day checking the dumpster.  He never asks for money.  As such well I'm not going to run him down and give him money.  

If I have change from a purchase as I'm coming out of a store I can do one of to things.  Take 5 extra steps and do something with that change or hang on to $.37.
Well sure I could save that change and at some point do something with it but thats too much work.  I'm to lazy not to be charitable.
If you want to discuss poverty and the causes and stuff I think there was a thread on that a ways back.  Hmm maybe at some point I'll look it up. Nah to lazy.


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## shesulsa (Nov 30, 2004)

It should be pointed out that as good as any government support system is, there remains a section of the populus who is still in need.

 I would rather help these people out than have them break into my house or steal from the store or rob someone so they can buy food.


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## dearnis.com (Nov 30, 2004)

The problem is that way too many of these folks have their own agenda.  I have seen (and been on the recieving end of) requests for assistance that were the start of a pre-assault interview.  It is all very well to say that we have poor support systems for those in need, and this may be the case.  We also provide far too much support to many who are simply abusing the system.

Just another ignorant fool I suppose.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 30, 2004)

Speaking as one who has been there (more than once I'm afraid) I'll answer with a soft voice but I won't answer for all of the homeless because I'm not a collective I'm an individual whose part of the whole. 

Ok, talk about stacked decks. True, my life it seems is one big stacked deck after another. I ascend and then I fall back down again... repeatedly. But, I do pull myself back up ... with the help of friends and occasionally the state welfare agencies. Sometimes it's enough of a help that I'm actually able to fend for myself and be comfortable and get out of the survival mode and actually start living.  Sometimes, that life is short-lived and something goes kablooee and I'm on that "downward spiral".  Trust me, I will try to stop it best as I can. Sometimes however I'll slide for a while until I can see the edge and then scramble before going over, (ya, speaking in metaphors here but the best analogy I can come up with).  
Each state has it's own welfare system, and each state dictates a policy of help and how much. Some states will go the route of the revolving door and others will do (what I call) the circus route and make the person requesting assistance jump through hoops to receive the help they need (food, cash assistance, etc.).  A lot of people become dependent upon the system and have abused it severely. I've seen people live quite well off "the government's tit", while for others the milk is rather bitter and sour. Sometimes it's too sour. 
For panhandlers that really want to get out of the crap-storm they're in ... a couple of bucks (even a $10 or a generous $20) won't do it. It ($10-20) may cover for a couple of days at best. Remind yourself how far ten bucks will carry ya on an average day if you got no food at home (or no home at all)... try pretending and then mulitply that by 365 days or even 180 days.  
I'm not saying start writing out a check for half your savings or anything like that but if all you can do is all you can do then all you can do is enough because at least you're trying to help... and that is what counts. 

The one thing Paul (and the rest of you) that _sometimes_ keeps a person from helping themselves or getting help is pride.  Sometimes some folks want to live that way. The why's are as individual as the people themselves; low self-esteem, extreme bitterness at society where they want to "disassociate" themselves from it (in their minds they are doing just that), fear ... and that one covers a lot. Fear of success, fear of failure, fear of just plain trying. It's human, it's something that isn't always easy to control or overcome. Sometimes biting the bullet breaks a few teeth. Kinda hard to continue with that kind of pain isn't it? 

Others do want to get out and stay out. But it's tough. Very tough. Bad work histories really are what kills the average joe trying to stand back up again. It's a long long hard process and without the "right" kind of support and right kind of support group... they'll keep sliding.  One analogy I heard that seems apt... like trying to run on a sheet of ice slanted slightly up hill on a warm day in worn out sneakers.  Get enough momentum going and you just _might_ have that part-time/full-time job and get that income started and *maybe* make enough to get that deposit/first and last month's rent for that run-down apartment building you're hoping to get into.  You might make that in two or three paychecks... Ahh but wait.. a paycheck might be two weeks apart... three weeks for the first one in some cases.  So how to keep showering and clothes cleaned during that time? How to feed yourself (even better... how to feed the family?). Saving money, enough of it is very hard under those conditions. Minimum wage just-doesn't-cut it when one is out of ...well, just about every thing. 
Ah the welfare system ... that's what it's there for. Yes. 
Some people are just natural screw-ups. You've seen them... at work, school, day to day stuff. Even they would screw up something like the welfare system and are denied the help they so desperately need because papers didn't get turned in on time, not enough job applications in the job search, not keeping the job long enough and so on and so on, (remember... been there and done that okay?). The workers at the welfare offices do their jobs and some of them do it quite well. But they're just as frustrated as the ones trying to get the help. Very hard for them to sort out the scammers and the desperates. Very hard to sort out the ones who have the capabilities and the ones who need more help than they realize. Very hard to work with those who are ignorant or unskilled. It's a tough job and to make it even tougher they have to adhere to policy as dictated by the state. 
They're very much (in my experience), in that "you're asking us for help? Prove it to me by doing what I need you to do. Show me that you're really trying here".  Some will try hard, some will try for a little bit, some not at all, some will try but have that infamous "stacked deck". How do you know which is which? 
Lots of jobs out there but lots of jobs that aren't paying the money needed to get out of whatever hole that some people are finding themselves in. Like I said, minimum wage just doesn't cut it, which I believe is .. what? $5.15 an hour times 38-40 hours then minus taxes and then minus food for a week or two weeks then minus shelter fees (hotels or cheap apts) then minus transportation (public and private?) then ... wow a "couple of bucks". Well at least I can eat at the McDonalds I'm working at... oh no, you gotta pay half the cost of the food. 
Stacked deck indeed. A stacked deck and a few aces missing.   
It's very tiring work. Even more so when the light at the end of the tunnel is just a pin-prick far far away. It's there but damn it takes a while to get there. Sometimes not soon enough. Reality rears it's ugly head; rent is due, get hurt on the job, get really sick, other bills come in, car breaks down (because it was a POS to begin with), and so on. Kinda like what John Lennon sang once... "life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." 

We can help out best that we may and best that we do.  But we all got our own lives to live don't we? What we each earn we've learned to live within those means and the thought of giving is sometimes a bitter pill, sometimes not.  It's how we see things and it's a measure of our character and above all  it's a measure of the amount of love we have in our hearts. 

I read a wonderful book once and highly recommend it... "The Story of B" by Daniel Quinn.  Very insightful and related to the discussion here.  Reviews can be found on Amazon.com


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## lonecoyote (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't see many posts by people who have admitted they had to do it. I did. If you think its easy, you're wrong. If you think that I wouldn't have rather done anything than ask a stranger for money, you're wrong. It is difficult, demeaning, and puts a hole inside of you. Working is easier, no matter the job, it is much easier. Panhandling is not the easy way out, if you think it is, try it. And being homeless can be a special kind of hell for some people, so I know better than to hold it against them for using a couple of dollars for a bottle of wine. What are they going to do with your two dollars instead, invest it and watch it grow into a nest egg that will enable them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? No, because it is just Two Dollars. It might be the last two dollars they see that day. So it's either buy a sandwich, which they might do, or go for the wine and maybe forget they're homeless for a while. That's fine with me. Have a drink on me, I don't drink anymore anyway so there's some left over.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Lonecoyote and Ralph ... :asian:

 I know it takes guts to post personal pain on this board.  The hope is always (I think) to share and instill passion and compassion.  I think this is the purpose of pain in people's lives.  Thanks for sharing.

 SS



			
				lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I don't see many posts by people who have admitted they had to do it. I did. If you think its easy, you're wrong. If you think that I wouldn't have rather done anything than ask a stranger for money, you're wrong. It is difficult, demeaning, and puts a hole inside of you. Working is easier, no matter the job, it is much easier. Panhandling is not the easy way out, if you think it is, try it. And being homeless can be a special kind of hell for some people, so I know better than to hold it against them for using a couple of dollars for a bottle of wine. What are they going to do with your two dollars instead, invest it and watch it grow into a nest egg that will enable them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps? No, because it is just Two Dollars. It might be the last two dollars they see that day. So it's either buy a sandwich, which they might do, or go for the wine and maybe forget they're homeless for a while. That's fine with me. Have a drink on me, I don't drink anymore anyway so there's some left over.


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## Erik (Dec 1, 2004)

Some of these people just refuse to work.  My sister is 1 step away from this and steadfastly believes the world owes her a living.  She and her pals sit around watching TV and getting high discussing how to cheat the system, how to get more food stamps if you complain of stomach trouble, etc.

There was a guy in my old college town whose parents were both professors and yet he made plenty of money being semi-homeless.  It a good money sometimes and you get to hang out and smoke pot all day.

Another guy was hassling my roommate for money - young guy, early 20s, looked reasonably fit.  My roommie turned to him and said "J - O - B - get one."  The guy started making excuses and my roommie pointed out that he joined the military before graduating from high school (he was 17) and was in Pararescue before 19.  He was a little guy, too - 135 lbs.

Some of these guys are just unable to take care of themselves, though they try.  Some are plain old nuts - psychotic, schizophrenic, etc.

I've offered one guy some warm food and he threw a temper tantrum at me.  Seems he was more interested in cash for booze or drugs.

I know times are hard, but there are tons of folks out there who just cannot be bothered.


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## Flatlander (Dec 1, 2004)

I don't think it reasonable to neglect the needy because of displeasure with the lazy.  By the sounds of things most are able to discern the difference between the two, so.....

Why don't we approach this by looking at an analogy?  We all know that there have been, are, and will continue to be politicians who will abuse the system, cheat, and otherwise behave poorly.  Is becoming disillusioned, and choosing to abstain from voting or lobbying or otherwise being involved the appropriate solution?  Things don't change if nobody tries to change them, similarily, the needy don't get fed if we justify our unhelpingness* based upon wanting to punish the lazy.



*I'm sure that's not a word, but you get the point.


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 1, 2004)

Snaps to shesulsa and flatlander.

I like "unhelpingness" as a word.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> ... once one's appearance begins to wane, it is increasingly difficult to get a job. Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?


 Hate to be redundant, but I still have not had a reply to this question which was posed to Oak Bo, but anyone defending their rejection of panhandlers is welcome to answer.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Snaps to shesulsa and flatlander.
> 
> I like "unhelpingness" as a word.


 Hey, me too!  Let's declare it so!  It's so much nicer than unhelpfulness, which I think the Grammar Nazis use. :ultracool


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Can you honestly say that if one of the people you don't feel bad for applied for a job at your place of business with no skills, no training, no high school diploma, no address, no identification but had a willing-to-learn and can-do attitude, would you hire him or her despite the smell and filth of their clothing?
> 
> No I sure wouldn't. Not since I work with sharp objects and such, would you!? Let me ask you this; How about you invite one of those you feel so sorry for and have them babysit your kids for a half hour or so. You can pay them 40 or 50 dollars while you run to the store for a few items. That's 100 dollars an hour, that's much more than minimum wage. Babysitting isn't a hard job, and I'm sure you would feel great having them watch your kids while you're gone.
> 
> ...


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> No I sure wouldn't. Not since I work with sharp objects and such, would you!?


 
  I have worked with people like this before, so ... on a probationary program, yes, I would.



			
				Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Let me ask you this; How about you invite one of those you feel sorry for and have them babysit your kids for a half hour or so. You can pay them 40 or 50 dollars while you run to the store for a few items. That's 100 dollars an hour that's much more than minimum wage. Babysitting isn't a hard job, and I'm sure you would feel great having them watch your kids while you gone.


 My home is not my place of business, so this doesn't really work for me. Could you try another example, please? Besides, babysitting my children is a job not even my very own mother gets. 



			
				Oak Bo said:
			
		

> I stated my opinion on the matter, you can choose to agree, to disagree, or to stay neutral.


  Yes, I know, thank you.  I already made that choice, but thanks for pointing it out all the same.



			
				Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Sorry if I'm not Oprahized enough for you. But that's your problem, deal with it.


 There's no need to get personal. I'm trying very hard to avoid flaming or sniping. We are having a discussion and we happen to not agree, I just so want to understand more of your opinion - I don't care to change it or you or - *ahem* - "Oprahize" you in any way, shape or form. That is, unless you are giving cars or cash away. :boing1:


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Sorry if I'm not Oprahized enough for you. But that's your problem, deal with it.


Defensive much?

Picking a babysitting-kids job is pretty selective.  Most parents will scarcely trust anyone with their kids, let alone someone who may not be looking or smelling too good.  That does not necessarily mean that that person does not deserve, or should not get, a job, a home, etc.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> There's no need to get personal. I'm trying very hard to avoid flaming or sniping. We are having a discussion and we happen to not agree, I just so want to understand more of your opinion - I don't care to change it or you or - *ahem* - "Oprahize" you in any way, shape or form.


 Flame away I could careless.


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, we all try to keep MT as flame-free as possible, although it's not always possible.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Defensive much? [/QOUTE]
> No, not at all.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> My home is not my place of business, so this doesn't really work for me. Could you try another example, please? Besides, babysitting my children is a job not even my very own mother gets.


 Oh I see, it only suits you when the setting is right....Ok


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Yeah they should be able to have a home and such, but let them work for it like the rest of us.


That's fine - but how do people *start* working when they are trying to get enough money to eat, let alone rent a place with a working shower, and have money to buy the clothes necessary to be presentable at work?  Where is the security deposit for the apartment, or the money if someone needs a car to get to their workplace?  Where is the savings to "fall back on" if someone gets sick and can't work?

Those are some of the problems of transitioning to being homeless/jobless, to having a home and job.  It's easy to say "get a job", but if you are in that situation, there are many obstacles you have to face - including the problem of being hired at all with a lousy job history.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Oh I see, it only suits you when the setting is right....Ok


 Again, your example of babysitting my children is not an appropriate one because of the tenuousity involved.  Would you hire your co-workers or employees to babysit your children?  The comparison is faulty, so I'm inviting you to please try another comparison.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Yeah they should be able to have a home and such, but let them work for it like the rest of us.


 Again, I would really like for an example, please, of how a smelly, dirty, sleep-deprived homeless person who is NOT on drugs or alcohol and who IS trying to turn their life around is supposed to get hired.

 Can you come up with something?


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> That's fine - but how do people *start* working when they are trying to get enough money to eat, let alone rent a place with a working shower, and have money to buy the clothes necessary to be presentable at work? Where is the security deposit for the apartment, or the money if someone needs a car to get to their workplace? Where is the savings to "fall back on" if someone gets sick and can't work?
> 
> Those are some of the problems of transitioning to being homeless/jobless, to having a home and job. It's easy to say "get a job", but if you are in that situation, there are many obstacles you have to face - including the problem of being hired at all with a lousy job history.


 I have a friend who came here from China, the man worked 3 jobs. He had 2 full time jobs and a part time job. He worked 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week. He busted his butt, and now is a Professor teaching medicine at a University. So if you want it bad enough it's there for the taking but you do have to work for it. And no he didn't have a car for about the first year or so, but he found a way to get there.

 If he can hold down 3 jobs, I think someboby that can work, should be able to at least have one. Now those that have legit disabilites and such, that's a different matter. Those are the folks we really need to take a look at and find a better way to help out. Those that suffer from a true mental or  physical handicap certainly need a better way to make it through life.
 Unfortunetly, all the scammers have made it so much worse for the truly needy. So there doesn't really seem to be a clear cut answer.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, your example of babysitting my children is not an appropriate one because of the tenuousity involved. Would you hire your co-workers or employees to babysit your children?


 Sure I would and have.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Again, I would really like for an example, please, of how a smelly, dirty, sleep-deprived homeless person who is NOT on drugs or alcohol and who IS trying to turn their life around is supposed to get hired.
> 
> Can you come up with something?


 Sure they can look at the want ads, talk to people, knock on doors at places of buisness, the jobs are out there if you look hard enough. The main thing is for them to not give up. Although, that can be certainly easier said, then done. If you want it you have to go get it, just like in the martial arts. You want your next belt, then you better work for it

 Let me ask you how would you go about fixing this problem!?


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> I have a friend who came here from China, the man worked 3 jobs. He had 2 full time jobs and a part time job. He worked 20 hours a day 6-7 days a week. He busted his butt, and now is a Professor teaching medicine at a University. So if you want it bad enough it's there for the taking but you do have to work for it. And no he didn't have a car for about the first year or so, but he found a way to get there.


 I have had the priveledge of knowing a few people like this also.  However, they had access to family or friends who let them stay, where they could eat and clean up.  And they didn't smell, weren't dirty, weren't missing teeth.  Mainly because certain immigrants get government stipends to get started here - only because they were not born in the USA.  The American-born homeless in this country span a vast array of causations and backgrounds and, unlike many immigrant families, don't have sponsors or stipends or families who take them in to clean them up and feed them and such.



			
				Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Now those that have legit disabilites and such, that's a different matter. Those are the folks we really need to take a look at and find a better way to help out. Those that suffer from a true mental or physical handicap certainly need a better way to make it through life.


 Individuals who are mentally handicapped or who have psychiatric disorders comprise a very large percentage of our homeless.  They are there because insurance has run out, families have died or moved away, and the approach to mental health in this nation is now abominable.  It is EXTREMELY difficult to get a person institutionalized permanently, even if they are a harm to themselves or society.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> the approach to mental health in this nation is now abominable. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get a person institutionalized permanently, even if they are a harm to themselves or society.


 Yes, absolutely.

 With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?


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## INDYFIGHTER (Dec 1, 2004)

Gave ten bucks to a guy who had some sob story about being in town for a funeral but only because he was funny as hell.  Had me in tears!:rofl: :rofl:   His story was crap but he earned the money by entertaining me and my date and was very respectful.  He obviously could see how uncomfortable we were, it was in a dark parking lot at night and I imediately took a non-hostile ready stance between him and my date and stayed there.

What really bothers me are people who make a living from begging.  There's a group of about three men who patrol an area between two popular bars downtown Indy and they are there every weekend.  I've watched how the stalk people to get close enough to ask for money.  I bet when they're done they climb into a car and go home to count the money they were given.  It's a shame, you want to help out but are you really helping by giving a dollar?  I usually just politely say sorry and keep moving.  

However just a few months ago I was riding my motorcycle through a real bad part of town and stopped for gas.  It was late and a guy approached me while I had my wallet out and said "Give me a dollor.".  Now I'm no pushover but when I looked up and into this guys eyes I could see he was probably hopped up on something so I just said "sure" and gave the man a dollar.  It was worth a dollor to me just to see him walk away.


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## shesulsa (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?


 Well, if our government systems are so bogged down and faulty and dwindling as they are right now, the only real hope comes from people who are willing to donate.

 How about big corporations who have lots of money sponsoring expos where the smelly, dirty, ratty-looking homeless who really want a way out can get a haircut, manicure, some free personal care items, a shower, a hot meal, some donated used or new clothing, underwear, shoes, some dental care, vitamins, coaching and leads to local jobs and homes and military recruiters? The service providers could be beauty school students in their final hours, second-hand clothing stores, department stores (who part with clothing because it got dusty on the way out of the box) temporary agency employees and headhunters, etc.

  But again, this requires the willingness to donate.  Lots of folks don't / won't.

 So, another option is to vote in liberal Democrats who make a point of providing for public assistance agencies. But, most people would rather keep their money and rent videos, by X-box games or drink Starbucks than forward that pocket change towards a tax which provides for the needy. Why proport public service tax? Because some people don't like getting their hands dirty. It's so much easier when we don't have toa ctually interact with people in need other than to shoo them away in disgust.

 Then again, we could, as a country, convert to socialism and have socialized medicine and socialized education so there's be truly no excuse for anyone to not be educated (according to government standards, of course) or without healthcare (according to government standards, of course), but that debate is on a different thread.

  Or, we could just stick with what we have now which, in case someone hasn't noticed, ain't werkin.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

INDYFIGHTER said:
			
		

> What really bothers me are people who make a living from begging. There's a group of about three men who patrol an area between two popular bars downtown Indy and they are there every weekend. I've watched how the stalk people to get close enough to ask for money. I bet when they're done they climb into a car and go home to count the money they were given. It's a shame, you want to help out but are you really helping by giving a dollar? I usually just politely say sorry and keep moving.


 Exactly, that's why people are so reluctant to feel bad for them. It's the scammers like this that make it bad for the true needy.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> How about big corporations who have lots of money sponsoring expos where the smelly, dirty, ratty-looking homeless who really want a way out can get a haircut, manicure, some free personal care items, a shower, a hot meal, some donated used or new clothing, underwear, shoes, some dental care, vitamins, coaching and leads to local jobs and homes and military recruiters? The service providers could be beauty school students in their final hours, second-hand clothing stores, department stores (who part with clothing because it got dusty on the way out of the box) temporary agency employees and headhunters, etc.


 Yeah that could work, but for how long!? I mean so many people out there don't really want to help themsleves. They take a handout, but nothing will change for them. They just keep going in this vicious cycle.





> So, another option is to vote in liberal Democrats who make a point of providing for public assistance agencies.


 Where does the money for such programs come from and paid by whom? That would mean way more taxes for all of us, which a lot of folks have problems making ends meet now. Plus the Liberal Democrats are such weak weenies they'd screw it up for everyone except themselves, and scam the money. Then again though, any groups of politicians will do that. 



> But, most people would rather keep their money and rent videos, by X-box games or drink Starbucks than forward that pocket change towards a tax which provides for the needy.


 Yep I agree, and don't forget everyone has to have every new gadget that comes out on the market too.



> Then again, we could, as a country, convert to socialism and have socialized medicine


 I've seen that first hand, doesn't work nor ever will. 



> socialized education so there's be truly no excuse for anyone to not be educated


 I do agree the education system needs to revamped. Here we are in the richest nation on the planet, and yet we have schools that don't have enough books for the kids. That to me is a crime. Every child has the right for a good education here. 



> Or, we could just stick with what we have now which, in case someone hasn't noticed, ain't werkin.


 Nope it aint working very well, but it is undoubtly very complex. 
 The situation is getting worse and worse as each decade passes, and I look at the politicians to blame for the most part. They are so far removed from reality, it's sad.


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## Cruentus (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Yes, absolutely.
> 
> With all that has been said though, I ask how would you go about fixing the problem?



We need to start voting for people who will actually do something to combat the problem. The things that need to be done are...

#1. Doing more to raise the minimum wage and more importantly the living wage in this country, so that people can actually make enough money to get themselves out of holes before they end up on the street.

#2. Funding, funding, and funding. We frivoulesly spend/lose money on things that we don't need, like corporate welfare and the defense budget (what goes to research and development, not what goes to troops), while conservative think tanks push false ideas like "tax reform will create jobs" to justify tax cuts for the wealthy. We need to quit that nonsense, because it cuts off our noses to spite our faces. We need to fund programs that will genuinely help those who are in need; mental health programs, housing programs, etc., etc. And, these things need to be real programs, not enslavement of the poor programs like welfare to work programs here in Michigan.

On this note, I will say that our state has done a lot to improve the unemployment agency in Michigan. It is a lot more effecient and user friendly. There are a lot of job search locations that provide resume building tools, computers/email, fax machines, etc. All these things prevent people from ending up on the street. Unfortunatily, though, these improvements are only made in times when unemployment rates are high among the upper middle class as well as the lower and poor; once things improve, or at least once it LOOKS like things have improved due to the conservative spin, they will cut funding to the agencies and things could turn crappy again. Plus, the Fed. needs to not do things to sabatoge the positive efforts to try to make the administrations numbers look better, like kicking people off unemployment after 6 mo. cold turkey whether they are employed or not.

So we need to do real things to help, and fund these things, rather then pretending we are helping.

#3. Do something to combat consumerism. Personally responsability applies here, however, regular people are fighting against powerful think tanks and PR firms that infiltrate every aspect of their lives, selling the consumerist mentality. Ideas like: buying more now is better then just buying what you need, success is measured by how much you have compared to your neighbors, it's O.K. to be in 'manageable debt.' with credit cards, your class is based on how big your hat is rather then how much cattle you have (or the exterior rather then equity), and so on and so on. People don't need to have DVD surround sounds, plasma TV's, expensive new cars, etc, to be happy, and they especially don't need it if they can't afford it.

Now the homeless aren't the ones buying a plasma TV and then filing for bankrupcy...I understand that. However, the consumerist mentality basically says that you are not a valued citizen unless you can consume or buy. This is opposed to a better mentality of being valued by your work. If we value people for their work (not making a difference whether they are the garbage man or the doctor) then people will feel more valued just to be a productive citizen, regardless of what they do. And, society will be more empethetic towards those who are in a bind, but who truely desire to work. Instead, we only really value people on how much they can produce and consume, and if your on the low end of either (like the poor and the homeless) then nobody is going to give too craps about you, regardless of your desire to work and be a contributing citizen. 

I hope this one makes sense.

Anyways, these are just a few solutions, but we need to make a conscience effort to do some of these things, and vote based on some of these things to combat real problems, instead of voting based on fear that the liberals are taking our values, boys are kissing on Telivision, the government is taking our money, and the terrorists could attack us at any time.

It start with our votes, and everyone doing a little part to help.

Paul


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## raedyn (Dec 1, 2004)

I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.

Then I ask you:
Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
(See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> We need to start voting for people who will actually do something to combat the problem. The things that need to be done are...
> 
> #1. Doing more to raise the minimum wage and more importantly the living wage in this country, so that people can actually make enough money to get themselves out of holes before they end up on the street.
> 
> ...


 Yep Makes perfect sense!


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.
> 
> Then I ask you:
> Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
> (See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)


 Why dont you tell us?


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> Why dont you tell us?


I would guess, because they can and do work elsewhere.


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## Adept (Dec 1, 2004)

I imagine size is the biggest factor when talking about the different welfare systems. The population of Australia is only 20,000,000. Our welfar system only has to care for a fraction of those people. Once any organisation becomes too large, and too over-worked, then people start to slip through the cracks. 

 I'm not sure how it works in the US, but here the welfare people will set you up with any applicable job positions. They arrange the interviews for you, and if you do not attend you do not get your welfare payments. Of course, there is a bit of wiggle room and if you have a legitimate excuse you don't have to attend. They once set me up with a job interview for driving tractors (for which I am unqualified) in a job over 600 miles away. Needless to say, I didn't attend.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I imagine size is the biggest factor when talking about the different welfare systems. The population of Australia is only 20,000,000. Our welfar system only has to care for a fraction of those people. Once any organisation becomes too large, and too over-worked, then people start to slip through the cracks.


 I would think size has a lot to do with it. The bigger he system gets the more mucked up it becomes.


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

raedyn said:
			
		

> I hear you say that govenment(ie:taxpayer)-funded social programs don't work.
> 
> Then I ask you:
> Why do countries with significantly more generous taxpayer-funded social programs have significantly less homeless and - more to the point of this thread - significantly fewer panhandlers?
> (See Canada, New Zealand, & other more socialist countries cited in this & other threads)


 It wont work in the U.S. The only way it could work here would be to rise taxes by a whole lot. The American people wouldn't go for it, as they feel they pay too much in taxes as it is. The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.


A lot of them need to be thrown out on their heads anyway and replaced. 
Power corrupts and when you got major billion dollar industries giving incentives to said politicans to vote this way or that way on a particular bill, knowing that it will cost tax-payers anyway.... 
Question is though... who's gonna do it? 
Certianly not people like me... the ones that don't vote. So maybe I don't have a right to gripe.  :idunno: Mebbe I do.  Doesn't matter because the problem still exists and voting for or against something that will help me and countless of other homeless and poor and lower class folk will take months and years... a time span that not a whole lot of us have at the moment.  

I have to say Oak Bo that you do have a way of seeing things from a standpoint that many of us probably should have. Thing is that we (the poor) don't. Being beaten down time and again and having so many strikes accumulate against us, it makes it difficult to keep the stiff upper lip and the ole' chin up and maintain a grip on the reality of the situation. Grin and bear it and deal with it and so on and so on. 

Ah well at least I can...


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## Oak Bo (Dec 1, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> A lot of them need to be thrown out on their heads anyway and replaced.


 I agree the sooner the better too.



> Power corrupts and when you got major billion dollar industries giving incentives to said politicans to vote this way or that way on a particular bill, knowing that it will cost tax-payers anyway....
> Question is though... who's gonna do it?


 That's a very good question. If we could get rid of the special interest groups we might be able to make some headway. Of course that wont happen because of the money involved so the vicious cycle continues with no end in sight.


> So maybe I don't have a right to gripe.  :idunno: Mebbe I do.


 
 Yes, you have every right to gripe whether you voted or not. It's just as much your country as anyone else's. And your opinion is just as important as the next persons.


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## Flatlander (Dec 1, 2004)

Oak Bo said:
			
		

> It wont work in the U.S. The only way it could work here would be to rise taxes by a whole lot. The American people wouldn't go for it, as they feel they pay too much in taxes as it is. The politicians know that, and if they tried to get something like that going they'd be thrown out on their heads.


This is the center of the issue, I'm glad you mentioned it.  

Because the onus cannot be on the government to comprehensively provide for the extremely needy, the responsibility falls upon the generosity of individuals.  If all people said "well, I don't give because of the ones who abuse it, or otherwise don't *really* deserve it (they could be working, you know), then there will be NO help.  People that need help will starve.  Children with "lazy" parents will live a cold, hungry, and unwanted life.  Suffering will continue.  Help comes from the generosity of those who will, or there is no help at all.  For anyone.


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## hardheadjarhead (Dec 1, 2004)

Okay.  I'm going to post without pasting someone's quote in here.  I've been going after people a bit lately and with some heat, and I'm going to step back from that.  For now.

60% of the homeless in the U.S. have mental disorders, usually either schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder.  I've posted those stats on MT elsewhere, I believe...a long time ago in a thread far, far away.

Some here say something along the lines of "They need to get a job." 

Hire them. 

Approach the guy who is standing on the corner in November, in his socks, in clothes that haven't been washed in three years--the guy who is muttering to himself knocking with his fist on the imaginary wall that is enclosing him and keeping him from moving. 

Hire the guy dragging his opened sleeping bag behind him, wearing a football helmet on his head backward, who is screaming obscenities to people we can't see.

Hire the guy who says he's seeking Rachel's heart.  "The blood is in the heart, the heart's in the stone.  I've got to find it!" he says.   When you talk to him he'll possibly pull out a lighter and attempt to light his tongue.

These are all people I've seen or interacted with.  They're not creations of a fertile imagination.  The first two lived in the Tenderloin district of San Francisco fifteen years ago.  The third lives here in my home town, and did indeed attempt to light his tongue when I tried to calm him down.  I don't know if he ever found Rachel or the blood in the heart of the stone.  

Hire them.

When you call them winos, note that on the days they get their government checks they are unusually free of symptoms...and can almost act normal.  They've found that alcohol stops the hallucinations.  They prefer self-medicating like this to taking pills prescribed by doctors.  Paranoia drives that.  It goes with the disease.  Buying Thunderbird and MD 20-20 gives them a sense of autonomy and control.  They don't like the pills.  

Hire them.

A portion of the remaining 40% of the homeless in this country are migrant workers from Mexico.  Some are Mixtec indians, who speak neither Spanish or English.  In the Salinas Valley the newest workers sleep in the wooded sections of Prunedale, or live in caves.  I suppose a five by five shack made out of scrap and garbage bags counts as a home to some here, or paying $200 a month to share a garage with ten other people.  

Their life expectancy is about 49 years.

I'd ask you to hire them, but they have jobs and met your criteria--and they work harder than anybody posting here.  If you want to challenge that, go work with them picking strawberries and try living on their wage of less than $7,500 a year. 

See if you last a month.


Regards,


Steve


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## Adept (Dec 1, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Hire them.


 Why should I? Even if I was in a position to hire them, what possible motivation could I have to do so?

 Should I help them because they 'deserve' it?

 Should I help them through pity?

 Should I help them through empathy?

 Should I help them just because they are other human beings?

 As far as I'm concerned, no. None of the above reasons are good enough for me to take time from my day, or money from my pocket, to help them. Not when their only problem is a lack of a place to sleep or work. Those few dollars they find or are given are enough to wash their clothes at a laundromat or buy new second hand clothes. $7,500 US a year is a solid amount of money. I've worked for less at times. 

 I'd also like to know who interviewed every homeless person in the USA to be able to accurately claim that 60% of them suffer a mental disorder.


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## raedyn (Dec 2, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I'd also like to know who interviewed every homeless person in the USA to be able to accurately claim that 60% of them suffer a mental disorder.


VERY FEW of the statistics ever created interview ALL of the subject population. Ever heard of sampling?


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## lonecoyote (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't care how self reliant you are, how many jobs you work, how you won't ever accept a handout, etc. there will come a time when you will need help. Maybe not today, or tomorrow or ten years from now or maybe not until you are eighty years old laying in a nursing home and your catheter burns like hell and you can barely communicate to the minimum wage earning nurses assistant your pain. There will come a time when you need a hand. That is part of what it means to be a human being. When you finally have to ask, no matter when that is, when you finally have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who need help, then your attitudes will hopefully change and you can develop empathy. The capacity to feel for others and help others is one of the noblest aspects of humanity. And don't tell me there are no homeless australians, or no people who fall through the cracks there, go search Australian newspapers or TV stations, there are people who fall through the cracks everywhere.


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## shesulsa (Dec 2, 2004)

Let's all remember that our mothers volunteered to have us.  Our parents volunteered to raise us.  And it wasn't because we were stellar people who were worthy or with good character, or kept our clothes clean every day.  They wiped our butts and cleaned our puke, stayed up nights, forfeited their Starbucks and games and movies and lifestyles to raise us.  And yes, they did indeed have a choice.

 If you're adopted, those parents volunteered - and paid money - to raise you.

 The granny in your kindergarten classroom donated her precious time to help us.  Our Scout or Pathfinder leader volunteered lots of time and energy and many other things to reach out to us.  People volunteer at schools to help us.  People volunteer at hospitals of all places to care for us when we are ill.  Every time someone does us a favor, that is volunteerism.

 Volunteerism is just one of the best forms of donation, because it involves the heart.

 If you're not doing conscienciously something to benefit society and make the world a better place, then you're part of the problem.

 It is such a shame when people who call themselves martial artists - the warriors, the exemplery - espouse discompassionate beliefs.


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## Adept (Dec 2, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> When you finally have to ask, no matter when that is, when you finally have to walk a mile in the shoes of those who need help, then your attitudes will hopefully change and you can develop empathy.


 I believe I am chemically unable. My military psych tests revealed slight paranoid tendencies and sociopathic traits. Maybe thats why they selected me.



> And don't tell me there are no homeless australians, or no people who fall through the cracks there, go search Australian newspapers or TV stations, there are people who fall through the cracks everywhere.


 I never said there wasnt. I said their problems are not mine. The opportunity exists for them to be at least partially self reliant. They fall through the cracks of their own will.

 Now, I'm not saying I dont care about people at all. And I'm not saying I have a complete lack of empathy. What I am saying is that the level of empathy I feel for people on the street might as well be non-existant. Their problems dont concern me.

*@Raedyn* Yes, I have heard of sampling. I would like to know who conducted the research and to what extent. Sampling three crazies on the street and applying the result to the entire homeless population of a nation of 300 million is absurd. I would like to see the process used to come to the figure mentioned above.


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## Flatlander (Dec 2, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I said their problems are not mine. The opportunity exists for them to be _at least partially_ self reliant.


 Partially self reliant implies that there is yet another part that needs assistance. If they were able to be _partially_ self reliant, who will help them with the rest, if they are not "our problem"?  That's a loaded question.  The only answer you can give would be "not me".  And to that I say, fortunately for them, there are others who think differently.  


> They fall through the cracks of their own will.


Poppycock. Upon what fact do you base this proclamation? Perhaps a few, but I cannot believe all, or even most have _willed_ themselves to homelessness and despair.


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## lonecoyote (Dec 2, 2004)

Okay, adept, well you feel how you feel, you are nothing if not honest, and if you truly don't give a ---- about your fellow man nothing I can say is likely to change your mind. I'm sorry for you though, not saying that to put you down, just sorry. Good luck in life. I mean that.  Someday someone may do something to change things for you. I'm done posting on this thread.


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## shesulsa (Dec 3, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I believe I am chemically unable. My military psych tests revealed slight paranoid tendencies and sociopathic traits. Maybe thats why they selected me.


   Well, let's all hope and pray that karma does not befall you should you slowly lose grip in future.



			
				Adept said:
			
		

> I said their problems are not mine.


 Actually, they are more a part of your problem than you may realize. You pay higher taxes because of them. Crime is higher - for those willing to commit it and who must steal for money and food bring the need for more police, and that of course means benefits, burden, etc. Violence is up. And now that insurance companies know that they can continue to deny benefits to the mentally ill, they will continue cutting those benefits back until non-existant and then all unstable persons will be wandering the streets. Sanitariums will shut down and become mini-malls and movie houses where people can continue to escape and deny the outside (real) world. Within the next couple of centuries there will be fewer people with residence and resources than there are those without - because some people don't think it's their problem.



			
				Adept said:
			
		

> *@Raedyn* Yes, I have heard of sampling. I would like to know who conducted the research and to what extent. Sampling three crazies on the street and applying the result to the entire homeless population of a nation of 300 million is absurd. I would like to see the process used to come to the figure mentioned above.


 Why don't you find out and disprove her statement? Can you do that? or do you just not have any desire to? She's an intelligent woman with an intelligent man for a husband - you are "Adept" - disprove her statistics. Oh, wait a minute ... that's right. It's not your problem.

   I guess it wasn't Ghandi's, Meier's, Mandela's, King's or Lincoln's problem either.


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## Adept (Dec 3, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Well, let's all hope and pray that karma does not befall you should you slowly lose grip in future.


 Karma is a crutch for the weak.



> Actually, they are more a part of your problem than you may realize. You pay higher taxes because of them.


 I pay taxes, which in part pay for the welfare system. Beyond that, they are not my problem.



> Why don't you find out and disprove her statement?


 He (or she) who asserts must prove. If the only standard of proof required is an internet post, then here; less than 5 percent of homeless people have a mental disorder. Done. Of course, I can't come up with and sources to back that up, but apparently that isn't a requirement.


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## shesulsa (Dec 3, 2004)

Tell you what, here's an abstract published by the United States Department of Agriculture that analyzes food variance among other things.

 I find the observation of the Northern Cheyenne's social awareness and homelessness rates there fascinating. Cultures with this kind of awareness who act on principle have much lower rates.

  Here's a sample of the text:



> Cultural effects can be seen in the struggle of tribal members to uphold one of their central values: like many other American Indian groups, the Northern Cheyenne place a high priority on sharing resources with both family and non-family to ensure survival. Prevalence of the value placed on sharing and caring for others is evident in the low to nonexistent homelessness on this reservation. It is also evident in the everyday actions of individuals who share food with those in need, regardless of how much or little they have.


  I despise apathy.  I too am done with this thread.

  Merry Christmas.


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## someguy (Dec 3, 2004)

I am responisble for my brothers actions.  Sure I am not he yet if something bad befalls him then  it affecs me.  As such I have a responsibility for my brothers actions.  I hope that made sense.
In some sense the saying "All men are brothers" is true.
Also if I don't help another person out it will probably in some way effect me.  Look to what shesulsa said.

As for statistics I would have a hard time beliving any statistics.  Homeless people would be hard to do anything about statistically I would think.


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## raedyn (Dec 3, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> As for statistics I would have a hard time beliving any statistics.


Skepticism on this front is wise. We all know that 80% of stats are wrong. *wink* They do have some utility, sure. But you can slant 'research' to come up with nearly any answer you desire - especially in surveys & such. This is also why we have peer-reviewed journals that attempt to search-out methodological flaws and validate the basis of the research. Even with a good study, portions of it can be pulled out of context and warped to fit someone's agenda.



> Homeless people would be hard to do anything about statistically I would think.


 It is a challenging subject group, to be sure. The community studying homelessness recognises the difficulties. But they go far out of their way to attempt to circumvent the weaknesses. If you are interested there's a lot of info available online.


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 3, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Why should I? Even if I was in a position to hire them, what possible motivation could I have to do so?
> 
> Should I help them because they 'deserve' it?
> 
> ...


I would say, "Yes", but of course, I would not force anyone to have the feelings I have.


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## Adept (Dec 4, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I would say, "Yes"


 The next question is; why?


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## hardheadjarhead (Dec 4, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> He (or she) who asserts must prove. If the only standard of proof required is an internet post, then here; less than 5 percent of homeless people have a mental disorder. Done. Of course, I can't come up with and sources to back that up, but apparently that isn't a requirement.




You're right, Adept.  I was wrong.  The number isn't as high as I posted earlier...though it is up to five times higher than your estimate:

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/mental.html

http://www.nrchmi.samhsa.gov/facts/facts_question_2.asp

A lessoned learned.  Its only one out of four.  My bust.

Regards,


Steve


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## Adept (Dec 4, 2004)

Well then, the homeless just seem to keep pace with the rest of society.

http://www.mydr.com.au/default.asp?Section=mentalhealth

 http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/speeches/mii93.htm

 Of course, the real kicker is that (especially in a country the size of the US) its nearly impossible to take an accurate survey. Your sample groups would need to be extensive, and from each area of each state. At least 10% of all homeless people from urban, suburban, large town, small town and rural areas. From every state.


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## Darksoul (Dec 4, 2004)

-There are so many ways to look at these situations. I lived for three months in Mexico, stayed in Cuernavaca, and traveled a bit. After having so many poor kids walk up and ask for money, I can say that I will never hand out money to a panhandler again. I'll admit, part of my mentality concerns my effort, my money. Another part looks at the State of New York and just gets ticked off. We are taxed quite heavily in NY, and a lot of money goes to social services. When the bums come out, I can only say, listen, I'd love to help you, but there are plenty of services available in the city to help you get back on your feet.

-Homelessness is a choice for some, others just have it bad. Does each individual case require close scrutiny to ensure whether or not helping out is justified? My indirect answer to that is this: there are too many people in this country and the system cannot handle it. There are many other plausible answers as well, and some of them have been mentioned. There have also been some good posts here in regards to fixing the problem.

-We all have our standards, and I suppose its natural to initially judge others using those standards. I don't believe in any god, nor do I adhere to the notion of Karma. Cosmic justice maybe. However, I do believe in helping out those I can. My family and friends come before everything else. Beyond, I'll figure it out as I go along. Should I try to help everyone?

-I certainly believe most of us would like to help everyone who is down and out, try to get them back into life. And sometimes it is hard to weed out the bad ones who only want handouts. Lazy slugs bloated with materialistic desires, yet lacking good work ethics and personal responsibility. I know a guy who called a friend of mine and told him to go to work so he (the other guy) could go get his check from the mailbox...loser. Perfectly capable of working, but mooching off the system.

-A lot needs to be done, much reforming of the system, better education, voting out the politicians who thrive by being control freaks and greedy bastards. Unfortunately, this nation seems to be sliding down without any signs of stopping. I can say for certain, if I ever have kids of my own, they will do what is right, as my parents and friends have taught me. Thanks for listening.


A---)


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## Feisty Mouse (Dec 4, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> The next question is; why?


A number of reasons... the chief of which is that empathy and concern for others is one of the noblest human traits (although it can be seen in other species as well), and although some may see giving as weakness, I see it as an honorable trait.


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## kenpo tiger (Dec 5, 2004)

If I am not for myself, who will be for me?  And -- if I am only for myself, what am I?

The wise man does not speak in the presence of one wiser than himself.  He does not interrupt when his fellow speaks.  He is not hasty to answer.  He asks questions that are relevant gives answers to the point.  He deals with first things first and last things last.  He readily admits when he does not know about a matter.  He acknowledges the truth.

You know who you are.  Have some compassion for your fellow humans.  KT


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