# The Video Game debate



## Andrew Green (Aug 5, 2005)

Some interesting comparrisons made here:

http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=4246109


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## Thesemindz (Aug 5, 2005)

First of all, the game which has created the recent furor, GTA:San Andreas, was rated M and the offending material wasn't even accesible through normal channels, all of which the article points out. Of course, if you've played the game, you know it's plenty offensive anyway. You get to do all kinds of horrible things to women and violence is the whole point of the game. Regardless, the video game industry has done a fine job of rating, very accurately, the games which are produced and sold within the mainstream market. Sometimes things slip through. A trivia game featuring nude women as rewards for correct answers called "The Guy Game" was recently pulled from shelves when it was discovered that one of the models was underage when she posed in the game. Again however, this game was rated M for mature and was not for kids.

Ultimately, this is the same arguement we've heard with regards to comic books, movies, all kinds of music including hip-hop, metal, and rock, television, dungeons and dragons, and even the teletubbies. That kind of entertainment rots your brain. Then don't indulge in it. Control what you allow your kids to be exposed to, to the best of your ability, and instill in them an understanding of right and wrong. My parents did it with me, and while I love the GTA games, I have yet to pick up a hooker and beat her to death, or car jack a police officer. Because that would be stupid, dangerous, and evil in real life, and I know the difference. The problem really arises in that crazy people are drawn to escapism, and these forms of entertainment offer that. As a result, you'll always have some crazy people doing bad things, and consequently their lawyers will try to shift the blame from the person to their hobbies. Forgetting entirely that the people themselves are responsible for their own actions and that millions upon millions of people engage in these activities without every hurting anyone. Hillary Clinton doesn't care, she's gearing up for a presidential run and wants to be seen as a social conservative, and the publicity doesn't hurt either. Sure, pick on video games, they're an easy target. Who's gonna defend a game where you kill innocent bystanders with a chainsaw? The point isn't the game in question, it's our continual refusal to accept personal responsibility, and the belief that others shouldn't have to either.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Aug 5, 2005)

In regards to the article itself, I do think it makes several interesting points about the complexity of video games as well as the use of morallity and moral decision making as a plot device. I think that this has lead to, and will continue to lead to, a situation where children are progressively more self aware and have more complex decision making skills. One thing I think it misses is the threat of video games becoming so engrossing that people leave the real world behind. I think this is a much more realistic problem than whether or not GTA will make little Jonny kill his neighbors. I personally know people who sit for 10-15 hours every day in front of the computer living lives in game worlds which are in many ways more important and more fulfilling than their "real life." I know a man who can't be out in the sun for long periods of time because years of consistent 16 hour days gaming have left him dangerously pale. Surely he could adjust over time, but in the interim he burns within a short period of time, further encouraging him to detach himself from society. This, in my opinion, is a far greater problem and one for which there is no easy solution. Do we allow these people to completely remove themselves to the degree that a large portion of our population live in communities online, conversing only with people for whom they only have names and no faces who have voices they've never heard? Do we have a right to interfere if this truly brings them joy and they're not hurting anyone? I know another man who makes his living playing these games and selling objects he aquires in the game world to other gamers. He need never leave his home, and in fact rarely does. His wife is similarly employed, and now he's brought his six year old daughter into the "family business." They are also all grossly obese. Do we have a right to judge the choices he's made for himself and his family? What happens when the next generation grows up in this environment, lacking the skills neccesary to succeed in any setting except the digital world? Where will this leave our people?


-Rob


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## Andrew Green (Aug 5, 2005)

Well, I think that it is no different then any activity.

 People become obsessed with many things, none of which are healthy.  Not just video games.  Soap Operas, reality tv, Gambling, sports, celebrities, books, etc.

 Yes, there are people that take games to the point of obsession, and that is very clearly unhealthy.  But I think the question is, are these people that without games would have not become obsessive, or would they simply have become obsessed with something else?

 I also think a lot of younger kids spend way too much time playing. We've all seen the kid shuffling along beyhind mom, fixated on a gameboy.  She gives it too him too keep him quite, and strangely enough threatens to suspend him from it when he is not...

 Kid's of this generation are a lot more confined, the "Bye mom I'm off to the park" "Ok, be back before dark" days are gone.  Everything is structured and supervised, so what else do we expect them to do at that age?

 But to say Games make kids violent is absurd, what makes some kids violent is there environment, not the releases from it that they find.  

 It is scapegoating, plain and simple.  And that is the one thing that has remained constant.  Those same people saying games are evil are the ones who got told rock'n roll was evil years ago.  If a kid misbehaves it is because someone in the entertainment industry is corrupting them and brain washing them into it, not because there parents neglected them, overprotected them, they where bullied, teased, felt like an outsider or anything like that.  It was cause of music, or games, or D&D making them evil.

 Maybe we should call for a ban on schools...  Yes, no other institiution has been more responsible for creating the environment in which these troubled youth are isolated and bullied.  So lets ban schools, public and private, no more schools.  Yeah, that makes about the same amount of sense...  maybe even more, as that is the environment from which these kids need an escape.


  Games have ratings, same as movies, and in some ways far more restrictive it seems, so how can manufactures get blamed for kids getting games that they put a label on that says "Do not sell this to anyone under 17"?

 The whole market for game items things seems, well, a little odd too me.  I personally can't see myself spending $500 on a virtual sword...  but to each there own I guess...  I can't see myself spending that much on a old doll either, but no one complains about people doing that and corrupting the youth...


 umm....


 /rant

 *goes back to playing pacman (the greatest game ever)


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## Kane (Aug 8, 2005)

What is wrong with having some fun ? If we are going to criticize games we might as well criticize movies as well. Many people who are against video games don't realize that video games, especially the ones now a days is as valid of a hobby IMO than watching a movie.

 Of course there is the constant worries of youngesters getting thse M-rated games. But in the end it is the parent's responibility to prevent children from getting these games. Games like GTA are for adults, it is a law to sell them to children. Just like alcohol, movies, books, ect. It is up to the parent's to keep their children from viewing things they should not. We can't for example ban games or movies because some parents are careless. In the name of freedom it would not be fair .


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## Thesemindz (Aug 8, 2005)

Kane said:
			
		

> What is wrong with having some fun ? If we are going to criticize games we might as well criticize movies as well. Many people who are against video games don't realize that video games, especially the ones now a days is as valid of a hobby IMO than watching a movie.
> 
> Of course there is the constant worries of youngesters getting thse M-rated games. But in the end it is the parent's responibility to prevent children from getting these games. Games like GTA are for adults, it is a law to sell them to children. Just like alcohol, movies, books, ect. It is up to the parent's to keep their children from viewing things they should not. We can't for example ban games or movies because some parents are careless. In the name of freedom it would not be fair .



Technically, it's not against the law yet to sell mature games to kids. The ratings are part of an industy wide, self imposed regulatory action in an attempt to avoid intervention and regulation by the federal government. More information on the rating system and it's enforcement can be found at,

http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_faqs.asp

Additionally, it is not illegal to allow children in to watch rated R or NC-17 movies. The movie ratings are also self imposed regulations which were adopted for the same reasons. More information on these ratings can be found at,

http://www.mpaa.org

Despite these minor corrections, I do agree with your overall point, which I believe is that parents ultimately are responsible for the entertainment their children ingest, as well as giving their children the ability to accurately discern between reality and fantasy, right and wrong. I know that parents can't always be there to control their children, and I do feel that we as a society should be engaged in discussions about whether we are collectively harming our own evolution by indulging in violent, immoral, corrupting, or destructive entertainment. For instance, I find pornography to be one of the most disgusting, vile, and emotionally damaging forms of entertainment. I would not however make the willing performance or viewing of it illegal, within certain boundaries, primarily that it only be engaged in on any level by consenting adults. Despite the fact that I find it personally harmful, on every level, to everyone engaged in it, I understand that attempting to legislate my views on morality with regards to this issue would not address the problem itself. What is needed is education and understanding, which are often the proper tools for correcting behavior. Whether it's substance abuse, irresponsible sexual activity, excessive obsession with violent forms of entertainment, or any other destructive behavior, the answer is to inform people of the consequences of their actions and empower them to make intelligent decisions. I do not think that scapegoating is going to lead us in any positive direction.


-Rob


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## Marginal (Aug 9, 2005)

I do find it amusing that they like to refer to GTA as a "crime simulator" in the recent rhetoric that's been flung about. Didn't know that crime stats shot up after GTA was released, which is what the terminology they're using implies.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 9, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> I do find it amusing that they like to refer to GTA as a "crime simulator" in the recent rhetoric that's been flung about. Didn't know that crime stats shot up after GTA was released, which is what the terminology they're using implies.



Just like everyone stopped using Drugs after the Video games had the Do Not Use Drugs statement by the FBI Director back in the 80's.  

 :idunno:  :soapbox:


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## Kreth (Aug 9, 2005)

It's nothing new... a few years ago when we had the rash of school shootings, they tried to portray Doom, Quake, Half-Life, et al; as real life combat simulations...


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2005)

Well all I can say is at least people will now be prepared to fight off Alien invasions when they come, as we have been training in simulators since Space Invaders.

 Any Alien invasion that slowly decends in perfect rows and columns is going to be in really big trouble!


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## Shu2jack (Aug 9, 2005)

When I play Civilization III on my computer, I will start wars on other countries for natural resources (like oil), and launch nuclear weapons on the cities of countries that are stronger than me in an attempt to get them to surrender or face more nuclear attacks. 

.....crap, I just figured out how Bush got his foriegn policy. Video games must be banned!


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## Marginal (Aug 10, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Well all I can say is at least people will now be prepared to fight off Alien invasions when they come, as we have been training in simulators since Space Invaders.
> 
> Any Alien invasion that slowly decends in perfect rows and columns is going to be in really big trouble!


Futurama's probably the most accurate projection of the earth's future ever created.


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## Adept (Aug 10, 2005)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Futurama's probably the most accurate projection of the earth's future ever created.


 Actually, I'm going to have to give that award to The Fifth Element. If you haven't seen it, go and hire it today. Excellent film.


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## Kane (Aug 10, 2005)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> When I play Civilization III on my computer, I will start wars on other countries for natural resources (like oil), and launch nuclear weapons on the cities of countries that are stronger than me in an attempt to get them to surrender or face more nuclear attacks.
> 
> .....crap, I just figured out how Bush got his foriegn policy. Video games must be banned!


 lol


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## Loki (Aug 16, 2005)

Gaming webiste Game Revolution have an article on video game violence. They ARE a gaming after all, so it's no surprise that they think it's all BS, but while I haven't rigorously scrunitized it, it seems fairly reasonable. You can view it here. Anyone who wants to read further into the subject, namely video game persecution gone horribly horribly wrong, click here.

 I personally think video games don't cause violence in normal people. It's the same argument bashing offensive media that's used against movies and literature when some people don't see eye to eye with their views.

 A quote by Anthony Burgess, author of "The Mechanical Orange", who was attacked repeatedly by claims that his book (and subsequent movie) incite teenagers to perform acts of violence:

 "_Neither cinema nor literature can be blamed for the manifestations of original sin. A man who kills his uncle cannot justifiably blame a performance of Hamlet. On the other hand, if literature is to be held responsible for murder and mayhem, then the most damnable book of them all is the Bible._"


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## BlueDragon1981 (Aug 31, 2005)

Video games are only media. THey are not real and if a kid is thinking they are or that the game is cool because of violence then their parents need to get off their butt and teach them something. It is the parents job in my opinion to let kids know that this stuff is not to be acted out and that it is just a game.

Okay if people complain about the violence on games then you have to take the news off, take off a lot of the content off news sites and many more things that people take for granted. But wait doesn't that go against freedom of speech etc. No matter what this controversy will live on because people just need something to @#$%& about.

Okay I think that sums up my opinion.

Blue


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