# The Study



## Bob Hubbard

Is closed until further notice.


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## Adept

Why?


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## Bob Hubbard

Because we need time to process the large amounts of pointless moderator reports that a couple of people were generating due to their inability to debate in a civil manner, follow our rules, or differentiate between a personal attack and a sweeping generality. 

Our current plan is to reopen the study within a few days, but under new rules that we are currently working out.


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## MA-Caver

Bob Hubbard said:


> Because we need time to process the large amounts of pointless moderator reports that a couple of people were generating due to their inability to debate in a civil manner, follow our rules, or differentiate between a personal attack and a sweeping generality.
> 
> Our current plan is to reopen the study within a few days, but under new rules that we are currently working out.



Hopefully it'll work this time...

Will all former posts/threads still be available but "locked" ??


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## Touch Of Death

This Is An Outrage!


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## mrhnau

Touch Of Death said:


> This Is An Outrage!


slight typo there...

"this is an outage!"

Fundamentally, its Bob's board


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## theletch1

Touch Of Death said:


> This Is An Outrage!


Nah, the outrage was that complete adults couldn't carry on civil conversations without resorting to personal attacks, racist comments, baiting and constant "He's picking on me!" finger pointing.  The Study makes up a small portion of the forum as a whole but made up probably 80% or better of the reports that staff had to deal with.  There's a problem there.  Even worse was the fact that 90% of the reports that we had coming in from the Study were generated either because of or by 1% of the posters in that section.  As Bob said, we're hoping to re-open the Study in a very short while but the rules there will be geared toward allowing the 99% of posters who are capable of behaving as if they actually met the 16 year old minimum age requirement of the board to carry on what have, in the past, been very insightful conversations.  Ok, I'll get off my soap box now.


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## Touch Of Death

mrhnau said:


> slight typo there...
> 
> "this is an outage!"
> 
> Fundamentally, its Bob's board


I know, but its the section I am most active in, according to the statistics provided. The bad apples tend to weed themselves out.
Sean


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## Lisa

Touch Of Death said:


> I know, but its the section I am most active in, according to the statistics provided. The bad apples tend to weed themselves out.
> Sean



And we are trying to find a solution that is fair to everyone and can be moderated appropriately.  I just wish people would learn to use the ignore function and the RTM button appropriately.  We are all adults here after all.


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## Tames D

Prolly should be kept closed...


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## Lisa

QUI-GON said:


> Prolly should be kept closed...



Thank you Qui-Gon for your honesty in your post.  I believe you are not alone in that thinking.

The study has a special place in my heart to be honest.  It was the first section I was assigned to as a newbie mod.  I worked really really hard to help make it a good place for honest, open, friendly discussion on many heated topics of conversation.  It is the place where I learned how passionate Americans are about their politics and opinions.  It is the place I shared topics of conversation that mattered here in Canada and I believe it made me understand Americans more and vice versa.

So it saddens me that it came to a point where it had to be closed.  Maybe I am naive to believe that people can exchange ideas without name calling and without getting personal.  I believe in fighting for your opinion and that sometimes things get personal but I don't believe I have to try and make you feel like a complete moron because your opinion differs from mine.

I just wish other believed that as well.


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## exile

Lisa said:


> Thank you Qui-Gon for your honesty in your post.  I believe you are not alone in that thinking.
> 
> The study has a special place in my heart to be honest.  It was the first section I was assigned to as a newbie mod.  I worked really really hard to help make it a good place for honest, open, friendly discussion on many heated topics of conversation.  It is the place where I learned how passionate Americans are about their politics and opinions.  It is the place I shared topics of conversation that mattered here in Canada and I believe it made me understand Americans more and vice versa.
> 
> So it saddens me that it came to a point where it had to be closed.  Maybe I am naive to believe that people can exchange ideas without name calling and without getting personal.  I believe in fighting for your opinion and that sometimes things get personal but I don't believe I have to try and make you feel like a complete moron because your opinion differs from mine.
> 
> I just wish other believed that as well.



What people don't realize is that the uncommitted onlooker, listening to these debates, won't give you points for the insults you deliver. For the most part, they'll do the opposite: identify you as someone with strong opinions on matters you don't know enough about to defend intelligently. An idea or argument stands or falls on its own merits, regardless of the identity of the person who proposed it; if you focus on the person, the impression you convey is that you aren't up to competent analysis of the idea or argument itself. People who post in that manner make themselves look lame, or worse. If only they realized that, it would lead to a lot better quality of discussion...


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## Tames D

Lisa said:


> *Thank you Qui-Gon for your honesty in your post*. I believe you are not alone in that thinking.
> 
> The study has a special place in my heart to be honest. It was the first section I was assigned to as a newbie mod. I worked really really hard to help make it a good place for honest, open, friendly discussion on many heated topics of conversation. It is the place where I learned how passionate Americans are about their politics and opinions. It is the place I shared topics of conversation that mattered here in Canada and I believe it made me understand Americans more and vice versa.
> 
> So it saddens me that it came to a point where it had to be closed. Maybe I am naive to believe that people can exchange ideas without name calling and without getting personal. I believe in fighting for your opinion and that sometimes things get personal but I don't believe I have to try and make you feel like a complete moron because your opinion differs from mine.
> 
> I just wish other believed that as well.


Thanks Lisa. Having been on the other side of the fence for a short time I totally understand the frustration that The Study brings to you and the other Mods. Sometimes I think Bob is too easy on the troublemakers. But I know he is in a tough position and is trying to be fair to everyone.


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## arnisador

QUI-GON said:


> Prolly should be kept closed...



Well...one reason it was created was to make a place for discussions that otherwise would appear in random places throughout the site. There may be an advantage to localizing those discussions. Eliminating this forum will decrease the overall number of such posts but you'll see more discussions in *Knife Arts* degenerate into gun control arguments (for example), I'd wager. So, having a specialized place for such things is a blessing and a curse.

It was created because of some of the same tensions that have led it to be closed!


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## Bob Hubbard

We've heard for years how our members are adults, should be treated like adults, and that we're overmoderating. So we relax a little bit, and try to let people sort things out a bit before jumping in. Most of our members are fine with that. A few, can't handle it, and when called for their actions do one of 3 things. Ignore us, Insult us, or send in massive amounts of BS reports for us to precess. Right now, we're finishing revamping how we are going to moderate the study. Members who can discuss and debate in a mature manner will find things a bit calmer and hopefully more useful. Those unable to refrain from insults, slights, sweeping generalizations, and incendiary commentary will find their access to the study, and possibly the site removed, quickly. We aren't going to post a gazillion "warnings" just to be ignored. We'll be issuing one, or in the case of the more "informed" regulars, no warnings before issuing infractions. 3 strikes, or maybe less, and your out, permanently bared from that section.

All existing content will still be there, and topics can pick up again, just at a less heated level.

A sticky will be posted in the Study when we reopen it that we strongly insist that those interested in posting there read. The Steering Board will be moderating the Study, and each SB member can remove troublemakers access as needed. Yes, this might be a bit "heavy handed", but I'm going to be bluntly frank here. We're sick and tired of taking the abuse, watching a few insist they are adults then act like kids, and crap all over the section. If kicking a few out by their groins makes it a better section for the other 99% of this sites members who want to read and post there, then so be it.

If you want to flame, insult, and generally be an ***, there are sites that are made for that behavior. This isn't one of them. Get Out!


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## Gordon Nore

Bob Hubbard said:


> ...when called for their actions do one of 3 things. Ignore us, Insult us, or send in massive amounts of BS reports for us to precess.



I'm sorry to hear that this is the case. I'm not familiar with the reporting process, having never reported anyone, nor having been reported on -- to my knowledge. A politics/issues forum, as someone noted above, can be a pressure valve to keep other forums on track. However, emotions do fray, and members of any forum can become habitually combative and go looking for a fight.


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## shesulsa

One common problem seems to be that there are some who cannot discern where the line between "spirited debate" and "personal attack" lies.

Here's a few pointers:


If you are calling someone else a name, describing them in a disparaging fashion or putting them down directly - as in, another user on this board - then you are over the line.
If you lay bait line hoping someone will jump on it time after time after time, that's trolling and against the rules.
If someone says something about another political party that you don't necessarily agree with that may not be over the line.
If someone says all X-party members are idiots or retarded, that's over the line. It is not a personal attack, but it's over the line.
Point your debate to the points made, the topic at hand. If you are going to attack, attack a point not a person.
If you still don't understand, then don't post an argument in the Study.


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## Lisa

shesulsa said:


> One common problem seems to be that there are some who cannot discern where the line between "spirited debate" and "personal attack" lies.
> 
> Here's a few pointers:
> 
> If you are calling someone else a name, describing them in a disparaging fashion or putting them down directly - as in, another user on this board - then you are over the line.
> If you lay bait line hoping someone will jump on it time after time after time, that's trolling and against the rules.
> If someone says something about another political party that you don't necessarily agree with that may not be over the line.
> If someone says all X-party members are idiots or retarded, that's over the line. It is not a personal attack, but it's over the line.
> Point your debate to the points made, the topic at hand. If you are going to attack, attack a point not a person.
> If you still don't understand, then don't post an argument in the Study.



I think the last point is the most important one!!!


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## MA-Caver

Lisa said:


> And we are trying to find a solution that is fair to everyone and can be moderated appropriately.  I just wish people would learn to use the ignore function and the RTM button appropriately.  We are all adults here after all.



They probably DO know about the ignore button but they'll be damned if they're going to sit there and wonder what that "s.o.b." said about them that they can't read now because their posts are ignored... plus people just *LOVE* a fight! Especially one that they can carry on without worry about "physical reprisals"... (i.e. worrying about the guy hauling off and belting them one) betcha they wouldn't carry on so in a face to face... or a majority of them wouldn't. 
People LOVE being right and LOVE having everyone to be agreeing with them. If they don't agree then they're idiots! 
It's how some folks think. 
If someone doesn't agree with me then :idunno: well, at least I'd like to have a rational reason why... I deserve that don't I? If they don't have one then ... well... I've said what I've said and stand by it and leave it. Besides my participation in heavy (multi-paged) discussions tend to get buried and "left behind"... so I don't add on to it. I've said what I've said and that's good enough. Sometimes I'll get a rep point for it so it means at least ONE person out there agrees or supports or likes what I had to say... that's good nuff for me. :uhyeah: 

:asian: Kudos to the mods and admins for putting up with all of that. You all have my deepest sincerest respect.


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## arnisador

shesulsa said:


> Here's a few pointers:
> 
> If you are calling someone else a name, describing them in a disparaging fashion or putting them down directly - as in, another user on this board - then you are over the line.
> If you lay bait line hoping someone will jump on it time after time after time, that's trolling and against the rules.
> If someone says something about another political party that you don't necessarily agree with that may not be over the line.
> If someone says all X-party members are idiots or retarded, that's over the line. It is not a personal attack, but it's over the line.
> Point your debate to the points made, the topic at hand. If you are going to attack, attack a point not a person.
> If you still don't understand, then don't post an argument in the Study.



Good advice (though I'd like an exception for X="Nazi" etc.). The restraint in the last point is the big one--know when the topic is just too personal for you. If you wouldn't/couldn't argue it with a colleague at work, maybe this isn't the time or place either.

Take a break, make a long post about your martial art, and then come back to it later when you've cooled down and are tired of typing so much! It's for the best.


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## Bob Hubbard

Gordon Nore said:


> I'm sorry to hear that this is the case. I'm not familiar with the reporting process, having never reported anyone, nor having been reported on -- to my knowledge. A politics/issues forum, as someone noted above, can be a pressure valve to keep other forums on track. However, emotions do fray, and members of any forum can become habitually combative and go looking for a fight.


Basically, you click on this icon 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 to report a problem post.


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## mrhnau

Thanks Bob. I would love to see a return to civility. I love a heated debate, but hate it when it turns personal.

To users, just remember to take a bit of time to cool off. I've often had to simply ignore certain users. Not worth raising the stress level. No offense Bob, but this board is not worth an early heart attack 

Shesulsa, Thanks for the bullet points :asian:


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## MJS

Everyone has their own opinion.  Its normal to disagree with someone else.  But, its the manner that one goes about, in that disagreement, that can make or break the thread.  If someone can't disagree in a civil fashion, without having to resort to personal shots, and childish behavior, then the study or any debate really, is not for that person.


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## Bob Hubbard

mrhnau said:


> Thanks Bob. I would love to see a return to civility. I love a heated debate, but hate it when it turns personal.
> 
> To users, just remember to take a bit of time to cool off. I've often had to simply ignore certain users. Not worth raising the stress level. No offense Bob, but this board is not worth an early heart attack
> 
> Shesulsa, Thanks for the bullet points :asian:


None taken.   I tell that to the mods here often. I am rather proud of MT, but, it is just a web site.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Intellectual debate is great* but when you go over the line it simply is not so great.  One of the biggest issues we have here is people sniping or using personal attacks.  When you debate your point do not make it personal.  Really it is that easy.


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## exile

Assuming we're not talking outright trollery, the problem is that a lot of times what people are posting are their fundamental values and moral, ethical and political commitments, _disguised_ as specific issues or abstract talking points. Poke a little bit below the surface of the discussion and you find the posters themselves, their basic identities in some sense. When you criticize someone's ideas, in principle you're criticizing just a set of claims and suppositions about the way the world works, a set that is simply one possible way things might be, independent of any particular believer in those claims. But in practice, people often identify with those beliefs to such an extent that any challenge to the belief is perceived as an attack on the believer. 

It's not just in the Martial Talk Study you see this... in my own field, for example, people hold strong commitments to ridiculously abstract concepts, things you'd think couldn't possibly be taken as crucial to their sense of self, and self-worth. But in practice, they defend those beliefs like mother tigers, and will try to draw blood as soon as you start subjecting them to too much scrutiny. The venom and vindictiveness that emerges in academic debate sometimes is... well, scary. No name-calling or personal insults, but you can read the hostility and contempt between the disputants in every line.

If people realized that they themselves can't be reduced to their beliefs, and that even if they're wrong about something, it doesn't diminish their human worth, it would make things much easier, in all parts of life.... but we're just not built that way. That's why we need rules of conduct for this sort of thing...


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## MBuzzy

Exile has an excellent point here, many people strongly associate their beliefs with their sense of self worth.  When you attack someone's beliefs, they take it as a personal assault.

On the same note, many people feel that anyone with a certain set of beliefs, must be an enemy or unworthy of debate.


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## Senjojutsu

Bob _et al.,_ 

Is it just me  perhaps my warped perspective - but does this board now seem quicker (faster end user response times) since The Study was closed a few days ago??

Anyway whatever the pending changes, perhaps you may want to think about having another six-day moratorium with The Study  three days before/after the coming Election Day, November 4, 2008. 

Get in some sleep cycles before typing our opinions away. 
Then again we are all adults.
:angel:


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## RandomPhantom700

The Study was the section of the boards I participated in the most, mainly because I don't practice martial arts, though I hope to be able to someday, but also because I honestly enjoy reading other's perspectives on world events, even if I don't agree with them.

Thus, I hope The Study is reopened, and while I don't think I made any posts which lead to it being closed, but if I did, please allow me to apologize.  If it's reopened, I'll be extra careful to keep things civil.  

So...here's to the reopening of the Study.  :cheers:


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## Gordon Nore

MBuzzy said:


> Exile has an excellent point here, many people strongly associate their beliefs with their sense of self worth.  When you attack someone's beliefs, they take it as a personal assault.
> 
> On the same note, many people feel that anyone with a certain set of beliefs, must be an enemy or unworthy of debate.



I think this is a very valid point. I know that I have strong reactions when generalizations are made about different groups or belief systems.


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## morph4me

Gordon Nore said:


> I think this is a very valid point. I know that I have strong reactions when generalizations are made about different groups or belief systems.


 
Strong reactions are understandable, it's the way those reactions are expressed that's the issue.


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## Marginal

RandomPhantom700 said:


> The Study was the section of the boards I participated in the most, mainly because I don't practice martial arts, though I hope to be able to someday, but also because I honestly enjoy reading other's perspectives on world events, even if I don't agree with them.


It seemed to be friendlier all 'round before people/groups of people started trying to control what anyone who disagreed with them said via anon rep dings.


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## RandomPhantom700

Marginal said:


> It seemed to be friendlier all 'round before people/groups of people started trying to control what anyone who disagreed with them said via anon rep dings.


 
I ignore anonymous rep dings completely.  If you're unwilling to back up what you say with your identity, it's not worth the time it takes to read.  It's also why I signed all mine, positive, negative, or neutral.


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## Lisa

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I ignore anonymous rep dings completely.  If you're unwilling to back up what you say with your identity, it's not worth the time it takes to read.  It's also why I signed all mine, positive, negative, or neutral.



:cheers:


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## Bob Hubbard

Marginal said:


> It seemed to be friendlier all 'round before people/groups of people started trying to control what anyone who disagreed with them said via anon rep dings.


rep comments, pms, and emails sent through this site are all subject to our Terms of Service. Report the abusive ones, and we'll have Lisa unleash the Chews of Hell on em.


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## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:


> rep comments, pms, and emails sent through this site are all subject to our Terms of Service. Report the abusive ones, and we'll have Lisa unleash the Chews of Hell on em.



I would do it with pleasure...and maybe a nice chianti 


Even made a new avatar just for the occasion.


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## Tames D

RandomPhantom700 said:


> *I ignore anonymous rep dings completely*. If you're unwilling to back up what you say with your identity, it's not worth the time it takes to read. It's also why I signed all mine, positive, negative, or neutral.


Your a better man than I...


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## kidswarrior

Bob Hubbard said:


> If *kicking a few out by their groins* makes it a better section for the other 99% of this sites members who want to read and post there, then so be it.


Someone's been training again. :lol: 



exile said:


> If people realized that they themselves can't be reduced to their beliefs, and that even if they're wrong about something, it doesn't diminish their human worth, it would make things much easier, in all parts of life.... but we're just not built that way. That's why we need rules of conduct for this sort of thing...


A bit of wisdom to kick start my Monday morning. :asian:



Lisa said:


> Even made a new avatar just for the occasion.


Yeah, what's up wit dat, Lisa? You're sometimes downright scary. But I guess that's the point, eh?   :bangahead:


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## kidswarrior

Double post, sorry.


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## kidswarrior

Another. My bad.


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## Bob Hubbard

s'ok We gave Chew a Chewie snack so she's napping now. 

Study will be reopened tonight or tomorrow morning.


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## Lisa

Bob Hubbard said:


> s'ok We gave Chew a Chewie snack so she's napping now.
> 
> Study will be reopened tonight or tomorrow morning.



Just remember, he wakes up grumpy..:angel:


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## Bob Hubbard

The study is reopened. Please review the stickied policy posts.
Thank you.


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## Marginal

Bob Hubbard said:


> rep comments, pms, and emails sent through this site are all subject to our Terms of Service. Report the abusive ones, and we'll have Lisa unleash the Chews of Hell on em.


Eh. They're usually not abusive, just stupid. Folks that drop the "ic" from a certain party name just shouldn't be demanding I include pure facts and high discourse in my opinion posts.


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