# The Kama...



## ShaolinWolf (May 18, 2004)

Hey, I was just wondering about the Kama. I've seen it from as far back as I can remember. I messed with one or two and been intent on ordering one, but I didn't have anyone to instruct me on how to use it and I don't want a video until I get proper instruction. 

I'm in ATA TKD, and Protech Weapons system just incorporated into the ATA weapons system the KAMA. I'm so excited, but I still don't have anyone to teach me until my Instructor goes to the National Tournament in Orlando this October or a seminar to get certified, but the tourny is more likely. Then she can teach it at the school. Until then, I've only seen in my instructor manual I just recently got the 18 move form that Protech designed. 

Are there alot of adaptive forms for the Kama? Do you spar with only the practice ones or...? And other thoughts on the Kama would help. I suppose I could look up it up in a flash on the net, but I don't feel like it and also getting a "live" answer and possible better explainations would help alot.

Thanks

Ryan

:asian:


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## arnisandyz (May 18, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Hey, I was just wondering about the Kama. I've seen it from as far back as I can remember. I messed with one or two and been intent on ordering one, but I didn't have anyone to instruct me on how to use it and I don't want a video until I get proper instruction.
> 
> I'm in ATA TKD, and Protech Weapons system just incorporated into the ATA weapons system the KAMA. I'm so excited, but I still don't have anyone to teach me until my Instructor goes to the National Tournament in Orlando this October or a seminar to get certified, but the tourny is more likely. Then she can teach it at the school. Until then, I've only seen in my instructor manual I just recently got the 18 move form that Protech designed.
> 
> ...



You might get more replies in the Okinawan section.  I don't think the Kama is a traditional Filipino weapon although I wouldn't be surprised if its used in the Philippines. i think I remember I&I sports selling a "Filipino" Kama (handle was made of burned rattan).

 Unfortunately the Kama has been a very popular weapon to use in 'Extreme" forms competitions with flashy twirls and spins combined with acrobatic movement. If you are fortunate enough to get more traditional training, you will see one of the strengths of the Kama is its hooking/cutting ability.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 18, 2004)

Thanks! Yeah, like I said, I've messed with one or two kamas, but I really didn't know what I was doing. I read plenty of history on them, but I haven't really read too much on the execution of techniques or anything refering to the actual use of kamas. Well, if I don't get too many posts on this thread, Can somebody move it to where they think appropriate? or I'll just open another thread in the Okinawan section...Thanks again!

:asian:


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## arnisador (May 18, 2004)

Yes, the kama is associated with (Okinawan) kobudo. I'm sure lots of countries have similar weapons though.


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## dearnis.com (May 19, 2004)

they are an intriguing weapon, but difficult due to 1) blade charateristics and 2) tendency to snag yourself when training.  I can elaborate if you want, but it sounds like you are more interested in touranment forms?


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## ShaolinWolf (May 19, 2004)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> they are an intriguing weapon, but difficult due to 1) blade charateristics and 2) tendency to snag yourself when training. I can elaborate if you want, but it sounds like you are more interested in touranment forms?


I don't care if tournament forms or what. I just want to learn how to handle the kama. And I want to learn whatever I can about them. I know the history and all, just not the technique.


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## dearnis.com (May 19, 2004)

fair enough.  I had the day that would not end at work today (ie it is 6pm and I am waiting on my first meal of the day to heat up....)  I will post some stuff for you later tonight or tomorrow.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 19, 2004)

And just to post, I didn't type that clear enough. I don't care what it is, as long as it has to do with handling the kama...LOL. Kinda sounded like I don't care about tournys. I DO. anything that helps with the Ssang Nat(korean for double kamas).


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## arnisandyz (May 19, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> And just to post, I didn't type that clear enough. I don't care what it is, as long as it has to do with handling the kama...LOL. Kinda sounded like I don't care about tournys. I DO. anything that helps with the Ssang Nat(korean for double kamas).



Well, since you posted this in the FMA forums, i'll be the first to say...many FMA weapon drills with slight modification can be made to work with the kama. I would dare to say that the partner to partner training typically done in FMAs would "get you up to speed" faster than learning forms, at least as far as combat application is concerned.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 20, 2004)

Yeah, that would help. Straight Art would be best than learning from the sidelines. FMA would help, but the only way for me to learn is from a video. No FMA arts around me within 40 miles.


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## dearnis.com (May 21, 2004)

Good starting point would be Fumio Demura's book on the kama.  Basic, but then basics are the key to everything.  Tsunami video produes some very nice kobudo vids; that is another good starting point.
FMA helps with all weapons I would caution that the kama is not the easiest translation because of the location of the cutting edge.  It is simply not designed as a combat  tool; it was, after all, pressed into service due to the lack of anything better.  You may find that stick-based fma moves lead to "woodpecker" jabs with the kama; no problem there, you just have to adapt to the weapon's charateristics.  Some great trapping lines do come out, and a pair of kamas can generate some great shearing cuts.
If you really want to learn the weapon find someone who has devoted a lot of time to it.  There are a lot of folks who dabble in weapons but never become good at any, there are people who get a bit beyond that and have solid basics, and there are a few who are good with most, but exceptional with one or two.  Find the guy who is like that with the kama.  How will you know?  It will be like they are a part of him!!!
I hope that helps.


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## Mark Lynn (May 21, 2004)

I wouldn't waste my time trying to learn the flashy kama katas that are out now (or was the last time I went to a open karate tournament).  I watched a junior (maybe 10 years old) do a real fancy form with all sort of split kicks, rolls and such.  Never once did I see any real technique with the kama.  

If that is what you are looking for than learn the form and forget about learning anything of practicle value with the kama.  *However* if you are wanting to learn true techniques with the kama than I would suggest seeking out a good instructor in Kobudo or Okniawan karate that teaches the weapon.

As mentioned before there are several books and videos out on the market Tadashi Yamashita (forgive me if I butchered the name) has a kama tape out, Fumio Demura has a book and video out (I think) and there are some others out as well.  But you need a well stocked martial art store to find any of them.

Old traditional Kama katas are boring to judges who think 10 year old kids who do this flashy stuff are doing the real thing.  Which is why I said either learn the real thing or the flash.

Years ago I trained in Kobudo under a sensei and he taught me two katas with the kamas.  The both were great forms but they would be boring to judges today, no kicks no flash just straight forward blocking and cutting techniques with the kama.  Just using the weapon for what it designed for.

The 2nd form I learned Tozen (Toezon) I was told it had a certain feeling to it like climbing a mountian using the kamas (like using ice picks) due to certain techniques found within the form.  It definately (at least for me) had a very different feel (it was aggressive) to it compared to the first one I learned.  Again this is why I suggest learning the traditional forms as opposed to the flashy ones.

One last suggestion get two sets of kamas, a training set to use with a partner and a live set with sharpened blades.  Use the training set for your two man drills (wooden ones won't damage the other person's bo or weapons) and the live steel for your katas.  This is how I was taught, the live steel kept you on your toes making sure you had the blade in the correct position so as not to cut yourself, with the wooden kamas if you make a mistake oh well.  With the live steel you make a mistake it's the emergency room (I speak from experience).

In regards to the FMA.  When I started learning Kombatan I adapted some double stick feeding and striking drills to the kama.  I've wanted to explore more of this but I need to get a pair of the wooden practice sets so that I won't tare up my other weapons.  

Mark


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## ShaolinWolf (May 21, 2004)

Yeah, I want to learn more than crappy forms. When I want to learn a weapon, I want to learn all the execution moves, adaptions, forms, self-defense, strikes, etc. As far as I can go with any weapon.

And thanks Boar man.


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## ShaolinWolf (May 28, 2004)

So, how are the traditional forms different from the flashy ones? I'd like to learn the traditional ones, but I don't want to learn just forms. Forms are great, but as stated in my post above, I want to learn everything I can about any weapon that is in my possession. It's tough, but I find weapons fun and I know we shouldn't base our MA off weapons all the time, but I find weapons just plain fun and I like the concetration needed to execute a technique properly. Of course, I don't just use weapons, just want to learn what I can!

:asian:


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## Mark Lynn (May 29, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> So, how are the traditional forms different from the flashy ones? I'd like to learn the traditional ones, but I don't want to learn just forms. Forms are great, but as stated in my post above, I want to learn everything I can about any weapon that is in my possession. It's tough, but I find weapons fun and I know we shouldn't base our MA off weapons all the time, but I find weapons just plain fun and I like the concetration needed to execute a technique properly. Of course, I don't just use weapons, just want to learn what I can!
> 
> :asian:



Shaolin Wolf

The two weapons (kama) forms that I learned seemed real basic in that there wasn't any flash, no jumping 360 turn kicks, no head high or even shin high kicks, in fact no kicks at all.  No back flips or front flips, no round offs or kip ups (the move from lying on your back and you spring up to your feet), or in fact your feet never leave the ground.

In fact all of the weapons forms I was taught  or shown for the Kama, sai, nunchaku, tonfa, jo, bo and Katana had none of these type of techniques in them.  Only in the katana form was there a kind of a skip move where you skipped forward and pivoted 180 and ended up in a semi croached position with your sword pointed at the next foe.  Now contrasted to what I saw at an open tournament several years ago, and the still pictures that I see occansionaly in Century's catalog, I think that judges would think the traditional katas are boring.  Which is why now there are so many made up katas in the tournament world.  You don't need experience in gymnastics to do the tradtitinal forms only the new ones.

Again this is why I said decide what you want to learn and seek out that type of instruction.  If you want to learn the traditional forms and the applications of their movements then there is plenty of material to occupy your time.  If you want to compete in tournaments then get a gymnastic coach, learn some moves, put a weapon in your hand and go for it.    

*I am not saying that the tradtitional katas are of no value or boring to the serious student.*  Rather I'm trying to point out that in order to compete it's a different story.  I enjoyed learning the tradtitional katas, and there is a lot of material in them for the student who wants to dig out the applications of the moves.

Don't get me wrong here but if you want to learn all you can about a weapon then I would check out some FMA students or an FMA instructor and pick their brains.  You might see a lot that will open you view on weapons.  I have applied drills that I learned in the FMA to the sai, and kamas, along with the PR24 (police tonfa).  I'm not saying to change styles, I'm saying maybe get with some people work out, take a weekend seminar or something to stimulate your brain and give you a different perspective and then see if you can apply it to your weapon.

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (May 29, 2004)

ShaolinWolf

Along with learning the traditional or older forms, a good school will teach you the applications of the moves found within the kata.  As well as drills to help develop the skill to make the technique work.  So it's not just learning the kata in a series of moves and that's it.  A good instructor will will have the bunkai (application) behind the moves as well.

An Isshinryu instructor taught me a bo form, and he spent probably 40 minutes just showing me (we were recording it on vidoe tape) the applications (off of the top of his head on the spur of the moment) or the bunkai of the moves of the kata.  These would have taken me months, years, of serious study to pull these techniques and to work them effectively.  

Again there is plenty to learn in the older forms but a good teacher is what you need to start with.  Or if you can't find a teacher then try and get some good source material to study from and try and learn what you can.

Mark


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## ShaolinWolf (May 29, 2004)

Thanks alot, Boar Man.  


:asian:


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