# What is Hwa Rang Do? How is it different from other MAs?



## TKD_luver (May 22, 2014)

I heard Hwa Rang Do is one of the most impressive fighting systems in the world. What is it exactly? How does it differ from other martial arts?


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## Dirty Dog (May 22, 2014)

The Hwarang were an aristocratic warrior group during the Silla dynasty. 
Hwarang Do is a Korean martial art with a very implausible history; it's one of those "we were taught in secret by a mysterious monk that nobody else can confirm existed" histories.
The brothers who founded it were Hapkido instructors in South Korea, so there is apparently at least some amount of legit MA background.


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## oftheherd1 (May 23, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> The Hwarang were an aristocratic warrior group during the Silla dynasty.
> Hwarang Do is a Korean martial art with a very implausible history; it's one of those "we were taught in secret by a mysterious monk that nobody else can confirm existed" histories.
> The brothers who founded it were Hapkido instructors in South Korea, so there is apparently at least some amount of legit MA background.



Hwa Rang used to be translated as Flower Knights.  They were trained as warriors, and lived in 'barracks.'  As Dirty Dog stated, there is no known connection between those ancient Hwa Rang and modern Hwa Rang Do, other than in the writings of the current Hwa Rang Do founders.  That doesn't mean it isn't a good MA.  It may be or not.  I am not familiar enough with it to comment.  I do know that in China, Korea, Japan, and other oriental countries, Confucianism has had a great deal of influence, the older something was, the more it was to be respected.  So if you create a new art, and can take it back over 1500 years, you must be able to command more respect.  

Many teachers of MA, instead of simply saying MA is old, try to say their 'art' is the oldest one, therefore, to be the most respected.  Aikido and Hapkido haven't yet committed to that.  Although Dr. Kimm in his 1st book, did that, my GM said all masters and grand masters knew very well that Hapkido came from Choi, and he studied in Japan.  To their way of thinking, Hapkido stood on its own merits, not needing to falsify its origin.

I haven't read much about Hwa Rang Do, so I didn't know it was founded by two Hapkidoists.  If they have at least stayed close to Hapkido, it should be a good art.  Have you heard any reasons why it is supposed to be the most impressive MA in the world?


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## skribs (May 23, 2014)

> I heard Hwa Rang Do is one of the most impressive fighting systems in the world



Every fighting system is "one of the most impressive fighting systems in the world" according to those who practice it.  It's called marketing.  It's just like the ad I saw on a van window that said "Rated #1 in the business by the business owner and his mother."  That's not to say that this is a bad art or anything like that, just that if you believe everyone when they say their art is the best, you'll believe every art is the best.

Contrast that with this fake advertisement:  "Taekwondo is a run-of-the-mill martial art that is largely derivative of Karate."  Would you want to take Taekwondo after reading that, or would you be more interested in Karate?  It would be financial suicide for a Taekwondo instructor to write that.  On the other hand...
"Taekwondo is recognized as having some of the most impressive kicks in the martial arts world, as well as a rich history based in tradition and respect."  Now that sounds like an established art that has some definite benefits!


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 23, 2014)

I own all of the hwrang do books and find the techniques and theory to be pretty good & look very applicable. 

They depend on dropping down to the OKP (one knee position) to apply the throw, lock or both. 

I think they got tired of the Hapkido politics & Its history is bit odd. I want to say the actual federation was created while they were instructing in the states. (I could be wrong). 

Id take it just to see what its about then make my judgement from that.


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## dancingalone (May 23, 2014)

Have you seen any Kuk Sool (Won or otherwise)?  It's similar in my opinion, though some people who train HRD will undoubtedly disagree.  They have some flowery forms which I find pretty myself.  At the higher dan ranks, you practice interesting weapons like the fan.

Not sure what you mean by 'impressive fighting system', but HRD is definitely not reality-based self defense.  It is a martial art with a clear bent on imparting Korean culture as part of its transmission.


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## dancingalone (May 23, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> I think they got tired of the Hapkido politics & Its history is bit odd. I want to say the actual federation was created while they were instructing in the states. (I could be wrong).



It's most likely hapkido with a strong blending in of Korean kung fu in my unexpert opinion.  Some people say the founder, while one of the most senior Hapkido practitioners in his own right, was not content with his position and so set about to creating the history of his art as an ancient one going back generations upon generations.  I don't study it myself and have no stake in it either way.


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## bluewaveschool (May 23, 2014)

Taekwondo has the same 'we are so very very old' myth problem.  General Choi wrote that it was linked to ancient Korea, and people bought it.  The real founders did in fact study in Japan and modified it, maybe or maybe not based on the art of Tae Kyon (which is a whole other mess).  The General even studied Karate in Japan.  I no longer feed students the 'ancient Korean art' myth, I know many still do.


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## punisher73 (May 26, 2014)

An instructor I know from the LA area talked about the brothers before.  The two brothers were both Hapkido instructors one day and the inheritors of Hwarang Do the next.  I have read other Korean MA histories and they get changed to make them much older based on something else.  Reminds me of a Tang Soo Do book I saw that had the 5 Pinans and other Shorin-Ryu based forms in it and assigned them animals and claimed that they were ancient chinese forms, there was nothing in there at all about okinawan/japanese karate and their forms.


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## shesulsa (Jun 8, 2014)

Do Joo Nim Joo Bang Lee is obviously quite skilled at Hapkido. The story goes that his family was connected with a monk living secretly in the mountains who had knowledge in older techniques. I think it is widely accepted that some embellishment has been made on the origination story. What it *seems* like is that DJN Lee assembled a lot of joint locking and breaking techniques, some judo, some Taek Kyon (sp?) and weaponry and mashed it into what I and my students fondly call Memory Do and named it after the Hwa Rang warriors.  

There is much come stern nation over the origination stories told by DJN Lee. I consider myself in oakton minded skeptic about 80 percent of the story. There are also some very compelling tails to be read very freely on the internet written by a couple of his former black belts.

As to the style, it is a curriculum-heavy and traditional art designed to be self-defense focused - remarkably containing techniques that can work against other styles. When I trained the HRD curriculum, each rank contained 1 or 2 short forms, one long form, 8-11 combinations, progressive breakfalls, some measure of judo and anywhere between 28 and 70 techniques per rank. In addition,  there is traditional weapons training and paramilitary-style training,  grappling and intellectual and physical agility development, pressure point application, rejuvenation.

There is something in Hwa Rang Do for almost everyone. I have reports of my students fending off attacks successfully against empty-hand attacks as well as knife attacks.  I've had a handful of martial artists from different parts of Asia say a HRD blackbelt will win against a TKD blackbelt every time. I don't know about that ... there's a lot to account for in any match.

But I do know that most places I go and witness martial arts training I feel very fortunate to have trained in this style and am very grateful for what it has done for me and for my children.

Since I started, my teacher and his master separated from the  World Hwa Rang Do Association. So we don't call what we do HRD anymore.

I have heard the term impressive in relation to my own students. In my very humble opinion, what is impressive to one could be ostentatious or pretentious or frilly to another. I think we have some excellent techniques and some flashy techniques. And whenever I wrestling with a technique and consider dropping it from the required curriculum for my club I find someone who makes it work like a dream. Is it the best out there? There is no best style. There can only be what works well for you. And your work on it should be impressive no matter what style you choose.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 9, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> ...
> 
> As to the style, it is a curriculum-heavy and traditional art designed to be self-defense focused - *remarkably containing techniques that can work against other styles.* When I trained the HRD curriculum, each rank contained 1 or 2 short forms, one long form, 8-11 combinations, progressive breakfalls, some measure of judo and anywhere between 28 and 70 techniques per rank. In addition,  there is traditional weapons training and paramilitary-style training,  grappling and intellectual and physical agility development, pressure point application, rejuvenation.
> ...
> ...



I think you would find that Aikido and Hapkido also are oriented in defenses that can be used against other MA.  Since from what I am reading, HRD was founded by two senior belted HKD practitioners, it would make sense that HRD would retain that.  Also that they would have healing techniques.

A HRD BB winning against any TKD BB any time?  I would guess HRD is like HKD in that you must be both fast and accurate, since we move into many attacks.  How does HRD make one faster than anyone who studies TKD?  If you aren't, you may find some of your techniques getting you to a place you would rather not be.  From what I have seen, Aikido is a very good art.  Being a student, I know HKD is a very good art.  Coming from HKD practitioners, I would assume HRD is also a good art.  But on any given day that you take on any other person, no matter their art, you may find someone who is better or faster, or both, or that you are so off your mettle that you are more vulnerable than usual.  I'm glad you like your art.  No one should study an art they don't think is very good.  But over confidence can be dangerous.


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## shesulsa (Jun 14, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> A HRD BB winning against any TKD BB any time?  I would guess HRD is like HKD in that you must be both fast and accurate, since we move into many attacks.  How does HRD make one faster than anyone who studies TKD?  If you aren't, you may find some of your techniques getting you to a place you would rather not be.  From what I have seen, Aikido is a very good art.  Being a student, I know HKD is a very good art.  Coming from HKD practitioners, I would assume HRD is also a good art.  But on any given day that you take on any other person, no matter their art, you may find someone who is better or faster, or both, or that you are so off your mettle that you are more vulnerable than usual.  I'm glad you like your art.  No one should study an art they don't think is very good.  But over confidence can be dangerous.



Well ... again, I think I typed that while I've heard people SAY this, that I don't know about that, that there are lot of variables to be filled in any fight. I do not type this without humility and I'm certainly not saying my mucky-muck is better than your mucky-muck. I simply said I'm grateful to have learned what I have learned and that the system has worked well for me - yes, even in actual defensive situations.  And I am absolutely POSITIVE there are a LOT of people out there who can beat me.

I always hope every martial artist feels this way - not as any kind of paranoia-inducing requirement or anything like that, simply as a humility factor and an inner drive.  There are some really great fighters that come out of all systems. As I said - variables.

*** note: apologies for the auto-correct and voice-to-text errors in my previous post ***


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 16, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> Well ... again, I think I typed that while I've heard people SAY this, that I don't know about that, that there are lot of variables to be filled in any fight. I do not type this without humility and I'm certainly not saying my mucky-muck is better than your mucky-muck. I simply said I'm grateful to have learned what I have learned and that the system has worked well for me - yes, even in actual defensive situations.  And I am absolutely POSITIVE there are a LOT of people out there who can beat me.
> 
> I always hope every martial artist feels this way - not as any kind of paranoia-inducing requirement or anything like that, simply as a humility factor and an inner drive.  There are some really great fighters that come out of all systems. As I said - variables.
> 
> *** note: apologies for the auto-correct and voice-to-text errors in my previous post ***



Perhaps I worded my reply to your exuberance a little too strongly.  Indeed I meant it when I said I would expect two former high belted HKD practitioners who decided to invent a new art, would invent something using the best of HKD, and whatever else they thought good.  I am glad that you like your art.  To me it would be foolish to study an art you didn't like.  It just wouldn't make sense to me.  How could you put into it what you needed to in order to really learn?

Bottom line, I am sorry to have given you any impression I meant disrespect.  I did not intend that at all.  I have always been glad to see your perspective on things, and had a lot of respect for you thoughts on any subject.


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## Humble Student (Aug 3, 2014)

I am going to say some thing that will cause a lot of heat and this could be used for anyone looking into an art.
Instead of getting he said she said about an art. Go to the school your self and if that art is not in your area look on Google and call the people that teach the art.
And make a choice that way (from your gut) instead of coming to a forum and asking. Because all though some are well meaning. Most people have preconceived notions about an art to which they have never trained in and have no real want to train in anyway. And most of the information you will get is from someone who has read something, somewhere from some one. Or they are just giving an opinion they heard from someone whom may or may not have been there to begin with, or have the full story themselves. Its your call in this matter. But to back up what Shesula said there is some good in the art and there is some flowery in the art. as with most arts. The truth of the matter is unless you are in the military and really have to use what you are being taught. We are playing the game of what if and make believe. When it comes to does it work or not. Because god for bid you would have have to use it and hurt someone or even worse kill some one. So just go there and have fun with it. If you like it great, if not that's cool too. But trust your gut instead of what you read somewhere on a site. (just a thought) And good luck with your training.


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## Ironcrane (Aug 5, 2014)

The people involved in it have made a three part video about how Hwa Rang Do was formed. Here's the first part.


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## arnisador (Aug 13, 2014)

Same nonsense--Suahm Dosa, 57th generation here. Sheesh!


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## thanson02 (Nov 25, 2014)

shesulsa said:


> Do Joo Nim Joo Bang Lee is obviously quite skilled at Hapkido. The story goes that his family was connected with a monk living secretly in the mountains who had knowledge in older techniques. I think it is widely accepted that some embellishment has been made on the origination story. What it *seems* like is that DJN Lee assembled a lot of joint locking and breaking techniques, some judo, some Taek Kyon (sp?) and weaponry and mashed it into what I and my students fondly call Memory Do and named it after the Hwa Rang warriors.
> 
> There is much come stern nation over the origination stories told by DJN Lee. I consider myself in oakton minded skeptic about 80 percent of the story. There are also some very compelling tails to be read very freely on the internet written by a couple of his former black belts.
> 
> ...



My experences with Hwa Rang Do mirrors shesulsa's.  The only thing I would add is that since 2005, DJM Lee's son Taejoon has been working hard to increase the focus on the application programs, at least with the WHRDA schools.  Depending on the school you go to, some are more curriculum-heavy, some are more sparring/application heavy, and many are working to find a balance between the two.  If Hwa Rang Do is something your curious about, I would follow Humble Student's advice and find a local school to check it out first hand.  Depending on where your located, Grandmaster Yum on the Eastcoast is doing some good stuff from what I have heard, and I think (not 100% sure) they are still curriculum-heavy.  If your in the mid-west, there are some great schools in Madison WI with branch clubs all over and a school in the Twin Cities.  I also know there are schools in Phoenix, Portland, and southren California as well.   I know I am missing spots, most of my experience is in the Mid-west.


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