# Question about KuLo/GuLao "points"



## wckf92 (Oct 10, 2015)

This may be for KPM but only because I'm not certain who else on here trains in this style.

As I understand it, there was / is a "public" version and a more in-depth 'non' public version, correct?

My question is: can anyone provide an example of a "point", what is it, how is it trained, examples of what concepts are embedded inside the "point", how it is trained in partner drills, wooden dummy, pole, knives, etc?
Do the points build upon each other? (i.e. does point 27 (for example) need to be understood before learning point 28?).
Are there any videos out there describing this?
I dug up an old post from KPM and he mentioned that a Sifu Miu teaches the real deal somewhere in the US. Is that the non-public version?
Thx in advance!


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## KPM (Oct 10, 2015)

Good questions! 

There is said to be a "public" or "village" version and a "private" or "family" version of Ku Lo Pin Sun.  The public version was a set of basics taught early on to villagers in need of a self-defense method but who weren't interested in going in-depth into a martial art.  A more "fleshed out" version of this was also taught publically to "out-siders" when people from the lineage left the area.  One example is said to be what Fung Sang taught in Hong Kong in the 70's.  The KL 22 system and the "40 Point" system are also considered "public versions."  These versions vary in content somewhat because the people teaching them didn't feel obligated to stick to the traditional curriculum and so changed things around as it pleased them.   The "private" or "family" version is said to be the original that was reserved for people learning directly within the lineage in Ku Lo village.   Henry Mui has lived in Boston since the 70's when he immigrated to the US and has taught both a "public" version early on and the more authentic "private" version later in his teaching career.  The problem is different people will give you different opinions on what is "public" and what is "private" methods.  It can get pretty confusing and somewhat frustrating.

A "point" or "San Sik" or what I just like to refer to as a "short set" is the basis of how the curriculum is organized.  This is still Leung Jan lineage Wing Chun, just organized a bit differently than what you see in the Ip Man branch and others.  Rather than the 3 longer forms of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and Biu Gee along with a long dummy form....Ku Lo Pin Sun is organized into a series of short sets divided into 3 levels.   Each short set is an independent "form" of at least 3 movements or techniques that can be repeated over and over as a drill.  Each of these sets has a formal two-man drill that teaches the main application or concept in the set, a version of the set that is practiced on the dummy, and a way to do the set in a Chi Sau situation.   The application or main concept from each set can also be worked on in a "San Sau" format.  This is less defined and formalized and is essentially trying things out in a sparring-like situation.  The short sets do indeed build upon each other.   They can also be strung together and practiced back to back, in which case the end up looking much more like a "form" that people expect to see.   If you take the typical Ip Man SNT form, then break out the "Pak - Tan - Palm strike" portion and practice it over and over alternating sides, what you have is actually one of the level 1 short sets from Ku Lo Pin Sun!  We would then practice this same thing on the dummy.  We have a two-man drill that puts it into action.  You work the Pak-Tan motion into Chi Sau, etc.

The Knives are said to have been added to the system later on.  Some branches have an actual "form" and some simply pick up the knives and perform an adaptation of each of the short sets with knives in hand.  This is the way I do it and it works pretty well.

The pole is an actual form and is "3 1/2 point" rather than "6 1/2 point" and is very short, as you might expect.  It also uses a short pole...around 5 ft in length rather than 8 ft.

The Chi Sau platform is more of a "coiling" action like a Huen Sau rather than the up and down action from Bong -Tan as in Ip Man Wing Chun.

Pivot point is at K1, not the heels.  Weight distro is 50/50.   That's the essential run down of the system.


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2015)

KPM said:


> There is said to be a "public" or "village" version and a "private" or "family" version of Ku Lo Pin Sun.



This public/lower-level vs. private/secret/higher-level dichotomy has been part of the marketing of not only WC but all kinds of quan fa since time immemorial. There is undoubtably some truth to old masters jealously guarding certain treasured bits of information, and reserving it for themselves and, possibly, their most trusted and high paying disciples. But ethically it's a crock.

The best stuff in any system is fairly basic, not the specialized tidbits. And if a Sifu holds back on teaching good basics, then he is a thief, not a real instructor.


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## wckf92 (Oct 10, 2015)

KPM said:


> Good questions!
> 
> There is said to be a "public" or "village" version and a "private" or "family" version of Ku Lo Pin Sun.  The public version was a set of basics taught early on to villagers in need of a self-defense method but who weren't interested in going in-depth into a martial art.  A more "fleshed out" version of this was also taught publically to "out-siders" when people from the lineage left the area.  One example is said to be what Fung Sang taught in Hong Kong in the 70's.  The KL 22 system and the "40 Point" system are also considered "public versions."  These versions vary in content somewhat because the people teaching them didn't feel obligated to stick to the traditional curriculum and so changed things around as it pleased them.   The "private" or "family" version is said to be the original that was reserved for people learning directly within the lineage in Ku Lo village.   Henry Mui has lived in Boston since the 70's when he immigrated to the US and has taught both a "public" version early on and the more authentic "private" version later in his teaching career.  The problem is different people will give you different opinions on what is "public" and what is "private" methods.  It can get pretty confusing and somewhat frustrating.
> 
> ...



Wow, awesome run down KPM! Thank you very much. 
Two more questions if i may: which version did you learn?Does Miu still teach in Boston?


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## KPM (Oct 10, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Wow, awesome run down KPM! Thank you very much.
> Two more questions if i may: which version did you learn?Does Miu still teach in Boston?



I'm assuming I learned the "private" version!  ;-)  And I say this because I have seen video footage of one of Mui Sifu's earlier students and he is doing things differently from the way I've learned.  And what he is doing matches fairly well with footage of Fung Keung (Fung Chun's son) demo'ing at public festivals. I also say this because my first teacher....Jim Roselando....has been really diligent about this and has traveled to Ku Lo village several times.   I think Mui Sifu came to realize that all the secretive stuff wasn't very productive or needed in modern-day America.  At least I hope so!  

 Miu Sifu is essentially retired from teaching.  He has two main students that teach for him at the Redline Gym on Cambridge Avenue....Marc Kenney and Chris Gully.  Mui Sifu pops in on occasion to teach a class here and there, or just watch and provide feedback.


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## wckf92 (Oct 11, 2015)

KPM said:


> I'm assuming I learned the "private" version!  ;-)  And I say this because I have seen video footage of one of Mui Sifu's earlier students and he is doing things differently from the way I've learned.  And what he is doing matches fairly well with footage of Fung Keung (Fung Chun's son) demo'ing at public festivals. I also say this because my first teacher....Jim Roselando....has been really diligent about this and has traveled to Ku Lo village several times.   I think Mui Sifu came to realize that all the secretive stuff wasn't very productive or needed in modern-day America.  At least I hope so!
> 
> Miu Sifu is essentially retired from teaching.  He has two main students that teach for him at the Redline Gym on Cambridge Avenue....Marc Kenney and Chris Gully.  Mui Sifu pops in on occasion to teach a class here and there, or just watch and provide feedback.



Good stuff KPM. Thx. Might have to stop by for further discussion some time. Or perhaps contact the Boston folks to see if they are open to meeting up etc.


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2015)

The Boston guys are pretty open.  The Redline gym is a MMA gym.  So they see lots of guys coming and going.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> This public/lower-level vs. private/secret/higher-level dichotomy has been part of the marketing of not only WC but all kinds of quan fa since time immemorial. There is undoubtably some truth to old masters jealously guarding certain treasured bits of information, and reserving it for themselves and, possibly, their most trusted and high paying disciples. But ethically it's a crock.
> 
> The best stuff in any system is fairly basic, not the specialized tidbits. And if a Sifu holds back on teaching good basics, then he is a thief, not a real instructor.


I agree here..
And the private label art... doesn't mean you are an inner door disciple either.

I have seen over and over that the first form that an art teaches is generally the core and most important of a system. It is what gets drilled in the longest.

But sometimes a key piece of information about the form is with-held until the student is deemed trust worthy. That radically changes your understanding of how and why.

There are people who would have paid 3000.00 dollars to have this lesson that Sifu Garry received.
I wish I could translate this. My spoken Chinese isn't developed enough to understand the lesson. 

But body talk alone shows a priceless lesson being taught here.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2015)

Here KPM... in case you hadnt seen it already. 

Your first teacher playing with a legend.


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