# Jujutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiujitsu



## Xue Sheng

How the heck is this suppose to be spelled in the 21st century, I mean other than &#26580;&#34899;

I am assuming, and I probably should not assume, that it is spelled Jujutsu based on what appears to be the proper translation of &#26580;&#34899; into , j&#363;jutsu

I have seen Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, or Jiujitsu and waaaaaaaay back when I trained it we were spelling it Jiu-Jitsu

So what is now the excepted proper spelling?


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## Steve

My general understanding is jujutsu implies traditional Japanese martial art.  Jiu Jitsu implies Brazilian... and is more awesome.  I added that last part.


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## Tanaka

In Hepburn romaji it is seen as "Jujutsu"

You might even see it get romanized as "JyuJitu"
Jyujutsu
Jujitsu
etc etc.


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## Xue Sheng

stevebjj said:


> My general understanding is jujutsu implies traditional Japanese martial art. Jiu Jitsu implies Brazilian... and is more awesome. I added that last part.


 
Now it all makes sense...us old time Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys, who are really tough, awesome and full of coolness used the spelling and then after the newer less-tough, not quite so cool and most certainly not awesome generation took over Jiu Jitsu they gave up the name and went to jujutsu (or at least that is what I am now told it is) so then you BJJ guys came along looking to be like us and decided to get some of our toughness, awesomeness and coolness by picking up the name... who could blame you...we were damn awesome. 

OK now that I have pretty much ticked off the entire Jujutsu/Jiu Jitsu community I shall be moving to another country and living under an assumed name and of course....wearing Groucho glasses everywhere I go ...gotta go.. very fast.... Bye


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## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> Now it all makes sense...us old time Japanese Jiu Jitsu guys, who are really tough, awesome and full of coolness used the spelling and then after the newer less-tough, not quite so cool and most certainly not awesome generation took over Jiu Jitsu they gave up the name and went to jujutsu (or at least that is what I am now told it is) so then you BJJ guys came along looking to be like us and decided to get some of our toughness, awesomeness and coolness by picking up the name... who could blame you...we were damn awesome.
> 
> OK now that I have pretty much ticked off the entire Jujutsu/Jiu Jitsu community I shall be moving to another country and living under an assumed name and of course....wearing Groucho glasses everywhere I go ...gotta go.. very fast.... Bye


 And if you're Orthodox, it's jew-jitsu.  But that's something else entirely.


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## oaktree

> How the heck is this suppose to be spelled in the 21st century, I mean other than &#26580;&#34899;


 
If you are in Japan Jujutsu would be most likely the accepted choice because when a native speaker says Ju instead of Jiu and Jutsu instead of Jitsu the understanding is much clearer. There may be some confusion with Jiujitsu with a native speaker because Ju from my understanding is said quick not longer like Jeeu and Jutsu should be quick as well and not Jit but Ju. You can hear the difference if spoken slowly but very quick it is harder to hear the difference.


It really depends whom you talk to on spelling. The more traditonal Japanese guys will say Jujutsu and would be correct because that is as close to a native as you will get.

Others may argue that since it is a loan word in English than Jiu Jitsu is correct because that is how it is commonly used now.

I guess it is like Wade Gile and Pin yin for Taijiquan. You have Tai Chi Chuan that most know and you have Taijiquan.


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## Xue Sheng

oaktree said:


> I guess it is like Wade Gile and Pin yin for Taijiquan. You have Tai Chi Chuan that most know and you have Taijiquan.


 
all better than calling it Tie kee kwan like a ex-student of mine did many years ago


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## Bruno@MT

You forgot ju-jutsi.
I know it doesn't make sense but that was what the people in my previous dojo used to call it. Mind you, none of them knew anything about Japanese. The paperwork said jiu-jiutsu... usually


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## Chris Parker

Ju Jutsu. Everyone else is wrong. Anyone who says different is wrong. End of story. 

Oh, and Xue, Jujutsu precedes "JiuJitsu", so is awesomer as it hadn't been changed into a sport with all the scary stuff removed.... but for even more awesomerness, there's earlier versions such as Hade, Goho, Koshi no Mawari, Torite, Taijutsu, Koppo, Yawaragei, Kogusoku, Yoroi Kumiuchi........


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## Steve

Jiu Jitsu is better because all the scary stuff is added back in! 

And tutu-tsu...  that's a particularly artistic style, but I'm not a fan of the uniform.


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## Chris Parker

Oh, poor young Steve, thinking that's the scary stuff..... ha!


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Ju Jutsu. Everyone else is wrong. Anyone who says different is wrong. End of story.
> 
> Oh, and Xue, Jujutsu precedes "JiuJitsu", so is awesomer as it hadn't been changed into a sport with all the scary stuff removed.... but for even more awesomerness, there's earlier versions such as Hade, Goho, Koshi no Mawari, Torite, Taijutsu, Koppo, Yawaragei, Kogusoku, Yoroi Kumiuchi........


 
Ahhh how I miss the naiveté of my youth 

Not a sport in America...over 30 years ago... where we were full of AWSOMENESS...and attractiveness


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## Xue Sheng

stevebjj said:


> Jiu Jitsu is better because all the scary stuff is added back in!
> 
> And tutu-tsu... that's a particularly artistic style, but I'm not a fan of the uniform.


 
Well of course...you were just trying to live up to our AWSOME standards...and who could blame you...we were awesome... but sadly.... you entirely missed when it comes to the uniform&#8230; which we&#8230;in our awesomeness and attractiveness called a Gi


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## Steve

Being serious.  If jiu-jitsu is English, by way of Portuguese, by way of Japanese, at what point can you no longer say that it's misspelled?  What I mean is, it's misspelled if you're talking about a correct transliteration from the Japanese characters.  But is it still a Japanese word at this point?  Talking specifically about the BJJ term.


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## Xue Sheng

stevebjj said:


> Being serious. If jiu-jitsu is English, by way of Portuguese, by way of Japanese, at what point can you no longer say that it's misspelled? What I mean is, it's misspelled if you're talking about a correct transliteration from the Japanese characters. But is it still a Japanese word at this point? Talking specifically about the BJJ term.


 
Being a CMA guy for 20 years all I have to say is it ultimately makes about as much difference as the Pinyin of Xingyiquan being compared for correctness against the Wade Giles Hsing-i Chuan from a Western perspective. 

However you go to China of today it is &#24418;&#24847;&#25331; and if they westernize it they use Xíngyìquán. But Americans use xingyiquan without any tone indication so technically it is still not right from a modern Chinese perspective.

But regardless we all know it came from my generation of Jiujutsu because we were just so... damn... awesome.

And stopping to do the math, first I realized...damn I'm old.... yet still awesome...but my Jujutsu days were damn close to 40 years ago....no wonder why we were so DAMN awesome... and attractive


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> And stopping to do the math, first I realized...damn I'm old.... yet still awesome...but my Jujutsu days were damn close to 40 years ago....no wonder why we were so DAMN awesome... and attractive


 
damn, you are old.  I am just turning forty.  tomorrow.


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## Sukerkin

Happy birthday, *FC* :waves:

And I am wondering amidst all this awesomeness and multifarious spellings ...

...

... where does the Judi-chop fit into things? :angel:


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## Flying Crane

Sukerkin said:


> And I am wondering amidst all this awesomeness and multifarious spellings ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ... where does the Judi-chop fit into things? :angel:


 
I believe that would be Austin Powers...


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> damn, you are old. I am just turning forty. tomorrow.


 

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

And yes, yes I am old

This was taken before I shaved my beard last week :uhyeah:


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> HAPPY BIRTHDAY
> 
> And yes, yes I am old
> 
> This was taken before I shaved my beard last week :uhyeah:


 

Old, and Venerable!


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## oaktree

stevebjj said:


> Being serious. If jiu-jitsu is English, by way of Portuguese, by way of Japanese, at what point can you no longer say that it's misspelled? What I mean is, it's misspelled if you're talking about a correct transliteration from the Japanese characters. But is it still a Japanese word at this point? Talking specifically about the BJJ term.


 
If you are talking to Westerners its fine I guess. But if you say it to a native speaker they may look puzzled at you. If Japanese tourist came up to you and said where is the Ice creamoo store you might say what is Ice creamoo?? oh Ice cream.


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## Chris Parker

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahhh how I miss the naiveté of my youth
> 
> Not a sport in America...over 30 years ago... where we were full of AWSOMENESS...and attractiveness


 
Oh, Xue, Xue, Xue.... thinking that I meant a mere few decades ago was "before"... my friend, I count these things in centuries, not decades. Oh, for the days of Taryu Jiai, when Jujutsu meant you both probably had short swords or knives, there was no submission, just restraint or breaking them.... oh, such fun. And that wasn't even the scary stuff there!

Oh, yeah, and happy birthday, Michael!


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## lklawson

Bah. 

You're all wrong.

When it was *first* brought to the West (don't ask how I know), it was Jiu Jitsu.

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/american-jiu-jitsu/12187945
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jitsu-and-other-methods-of-self-defense/9017549
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jutsu-or-jiudo-selection-from-kodokwan-method/1371282
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTS...v6w/Jiu-Jitsu's leading exponent May 1907.pdf (Jiu Jitsu's Leading Exponent - 1907)
http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTa...iu jitsu Salt Lake Tribune Sept 1 1907[1].pdf (Salt Lake Tribute - 1907)

Bunch of others, but that's enough.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker

Bah. The OP was asking what the proper, accepted spelling is now, not how wrong did they get it originally...

Realistically, "Jujutsu" for anything Japanese (if it's spelt "Jiu Jitsu" and is claiming it's directly from Japan, there's something not quite right...), "Jiu Jitsu" for Brazil, and either for any modern, Western interpretation. But hey, I'm a purist, if it aint Japanese, it aint Jujutsu, and it don't matter what they call it.


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, Xue, Xue, Xue.... thinking that I meant a mere few decades ago was "before"... my friend, I count these things in centuries, not decades. Oh, for the days of Taryu Jiai, when Jujutsu meant you both probably had short swords or knives, there was no submission, just restraint or breaking them.... oh, such fun. And that wasn't even the scary stuff there!


 
It matters not.... I know this is all just jealously based on the Awesomeness...and attractiveness of us old "Japanese" Jujutsu/Jiu-jitsu guys


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## Chris Parker

Hey, I'm neither disputing, nor doubting, any awesomeness or attractiveness.... I'm sure you thought you were!


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Hey, I'm neither disputing, nor doubting, any awesomeness or attractiveness.... I'm sure you thought you were!


 
THOUGHT!!!!

Oh yee of little faith


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## Xue Sheng

lklawson said:


> Bah.
> 
> You're all wrong.
> 
> When it was *first* brought to the West (don't ask how I know), it was Jiu Jitsu.
> 
> http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/american-jiu-jitsu/12187945
> http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jitsu-and-other-methods-of-self-defense/9017549
> http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/jiu-jutsu-or-jiudo-selection-from-kodokwan-method/1371282
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTS...v6w/Jiu-Jitsu's leading exponent May 1907.pdf (Jiu Jitsu's Leading Exponent - 1907)
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QBywTa...iu jitsu Salt Lake Tribune Sept 1 1907[1].pdf (Salt Lake Tribute - 1907)
> 
> Bunch of others, but that's enough.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Yes and they.... like me....were AWSOME!!!!!


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## Flying Crane

Xue Sheng said:


> Yes and they.... like me....were AWSOME!!!!!



I would suggest that they got their awesomeness from you, but they are EVEN OLDER THAN YOU so it's impossible.

How old is dirt, anyways?


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## Xue Sheng

Flying Crane said:


> I would suggest that they got their awesomeness from you, but they are EVEN OLDER THAN YOU so it's impossible.
> 
> How old is dirt, anyways?


 
Dirt is old, that is all I can tell you... you are not yet old enough to know the truth of dirt 

Actually my AWESOMENESS comes from Kaan Sensei.... who was/is older than me...so maybe they got it from him 


*HAPPY BIRTDAY MICHAEL*


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> Dirt is old, that is all I can tell you... you are not yet old enough to know the truth of dirt


 
My dad named dirt right after he rolled Noah for his lunch money... He hasn't told me the real name of dirt yet.


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## lklawson

Triple Bah!

There is only one correct way, either modern or ancient!

And until the Ministry of Truth reminds me that it is now and has always been "JuJutsu" then it is "Jiu Jitsu"!!!

As for awesome and good look'n, you've SEEN my avatar, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker

lklawson said:


> Triple Bah!
> 
> There is only one correct way, either modern or ancient!
> 
> And until the Ministry of Truth reminds me that it is now and has always been "JuJutsu" then it is "Jiu Jitsu"!!!


 
&#34899; = Jutsu (Practical Art)

not

&#23455; = Jitsu (Truth)

As for "Ju"/"Jyu"/"Jiu"/"Juu", they are slight differences in pronuciation for &#26580; = Ju (Soft), with "Jyu"/"Juu" being the closest. The Ministry has spoken.



lklawson said:


> As for awesome and good look'n, you've SEEN my avatar, right?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Nice... but for true attractiveness and awesomeness (so much so that the full extent of each cannot be shown in such a small avatar space), check out my avatar, my friend!


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## Sukerkin

ROFLKLITA

I just want to say how much I've enjoyed reading this thread and thank you all for the many chuckles it has raised .


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> The Ministry has spoken.


We have always been at war with Eastasia.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve

It still seems like you guys are caught up in the Japanese root.  Jiu Jitsu isn't a Japanese word.  It's an English word derived from Japanese.

Do we argue that "father" is the correct spelling of the word for the male parent?  It's an English word.  The German word is from the same root, but they spell it vater.  In Dutch it's vader.  In Spanish, it's padre.  The root is "pader", but we don't now say that we spell it wrong.  The word has evolved.  Meanings morph over time, as do spellings and pronunciations.  

In my opinion, it's off base to suggest that an English word is misspelled because we don't spell it... or even pronounce it... in the same way as the root language.   While I can in some ways concede a desire for accuracy where the style remains closely associated with its Japanese roots, this is particularly true if we're talking about jiu jitsu by way of Brazil.


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## Xue Sheng

Ultimately spelling it Jujutsu, Ju-Jitsu, Jiu-Jitsu, Jiujitsu does not really matter, I was just curious about how it is supposed to be spelled traditionally. I use to be a real hard nose when it came to spelling things Chinese, just look at some of my earlier posts. But now I'm ok as long as I know how it is spelled, however you spell it, as long as it is not WAAAAAAAAAAAY off its ok with me, I am not sure I could handle Tye Chee, Win Choon or shin yee, but Yale, Pinyin, Wade-Giles or charcters I&#8217;m ok with these days, for that matter, believe it or not, I'm ok with Cantonese too . But ultimately if you want to be a jujutsu purist you would only go to schools that had a sign out front that said &#26580;&#34899; and no other spelling would do. But to be honest if my first sensei was teaching and still spelling it Jiujitsu...well...I'd be there. Although it may be difficult because I think he may be in Florida now and that is one heck of a commute from NYS to take a Jiujitsu class&#8230; but you know&#8230; I would think about it.

What matters is how you train your given style and that is all. If you find a great school that is training correctly and has a great teacher and they spells it Jiu-Jitsu and based only on that spelling, because they do not spell it jujutsu, you don't go there, you would be, IMO, more than a bit silly. However I will admit if they spelled it Jajitsee I&#8217;d really have to think about it long and hard.

EDIT

For the record, I should add that in the early 70s I was training Japanese Jujutsu but it was spelled Jiujitsu and back then I never heard of BJJ


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## yorkshirelad

I think the different spellings of Jujutsu can be useful. For instance, I tend to see arts that are spelled Jujutsu to be more traditional Japanese arts, if not Koryu, then arts that are at least traditional, like Daito ruy or hakko ryu. Jujitsu would seem to be western interpretations of Jujutsu. Robert Clark's WJJF would be an example. The history of the syllabus used by WJJF is a little hazy, but now it is an established standard within the European Jujitsu community and used English words for it's techniques. When I see the word Jiu jitsu, I automatically assume that Brazillian Jiujitsu is being practised.There may be only one technically correct way to spell Jujutsu, but the differentiation in spelling is a useful aid in recognizing the distinction between arts.


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## Chris Parker

stevebjj said:


> It still seems like you guys are caught up in the Japanese root. Jiu Jitsu isn't a Japanese word. It's an English word derived from Japanese.
> 
> Do we argue that "father" is the correct spelling of the word for the male parent? It's an English word. The German word is from the same root, but they spell it vater. In Dutch it's vader. In Spanish, it's padre. The root is "pader", but we don't now say that we spell it wrong. The word has evolved. Meanings morph over time, as do spellings and pronunciations.
> 
> In my opinion, it's off base to suggest that an English word is misspelled because we don't spell it... or even pronounce it... in the same way as the root language. While I can in some ways concede a desire for accuracy where the style remains closely associated with its Japanese roots, this is particularly true if we're talking about jiu jitsu by way of Brazil.


 
See, now that's where I argue the point....

"Jujutsu" (and it's resultant variants) are not English words, nor Portuguese, nor anything but Japanese. The idea of it being a loanword, or transplanted term don't change the way it should be spelt. Both these concepts imply the word is borrowed from the original language (in this case Japanese), not that it becomes a part of the recieving language (English). And in that regard, it remains a Japanese word, no matter how many cultures and languages bring it into their lexicon.

As to the root languages changing the way that things are spelt, yes, that is the way it happens... when a language is formed from base, or root, languages. In English's case, that root comes from Latin (which is where "pader" comes from, and was a root language for much of European language forms), Germanic, Norse, and a few others. But none of it comes from Asian languages. What has happened is that certain Asian terms, phrases, and words have made their way into popular vocabulary. That does not make them English, though, any more than the use of "au revoir", or "ciao" make those words and phrases English, instead of French or Italian... and there the same common root language is present.

If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.


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## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.


 


I think that those would be _calques_, or _translated_ loan words, if that were the case. 

Stevebjj is spot on about this, btw.

All of the various *English* spellings of &#26580;&#34899; are acceptable to a varying degree. The idea of the Brazilian variant using the archaic "jiu-jutsu" has become the norm, just as the spelling of "jujutsu" has become the linguistically acceptable Romanized variant. While I agree with you in principle, Chris, and spell it this way, quite frankly, you don't understand the way loan words work. If it were spelled "joogutsu," and pronounced the same way, it wouldn't matter-that would be English spelling. Since we've had several spellings over the years-some rather appaling to your sensibilities-all of them are acceptable, and to be found in the best of English language technical manuals (that's engineerspeak for _dictionary_), as _variants_, where expert lexicographers, scholarly men and women whose job it is to decide, on a yearly basis, what is actually a word and what is not.

If you have an argument, it's with them, but they are the ultimate arbiters of what constitutes an English word, and how it may be spelled. 

(Rather reminds me of the argument over "_colour_" and "_color_." We know what you mean, they're both acceptable, and why should we care? :lfao


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## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> See, now that's where I argue the point....
> 
> "Jujutsu" (and it's resultant variants) are not English words, nor Portuguese, nor anything but Japanese. The idea of it being a loanword, or transplanted term don't change the way it should be spelt. Both these concepts imply the word is borrowed from the original language (in this case Japanese), not that it becomes a part of the recieving language (English). And in that regard, it remains a Japanese word, no matter how many cultures and languages bring it into their lexicon.
> 
> As to the root languages changing the way that things are spelt, yes, that is the way it happens... when a language is formed from base, or root, languages. In English's case, that root comes from Latin (which is where "pader" comes from, and was a root language for much of European language forms), Germanic, Norse, and a few others. But none of it comes from Asian languages. What has happened is that certain Asian terms, phrases, and words have made their way into popular vocabulary. That does not make them English, though, any more than the use of "au revoir", or "ciao" make those words and phrases English, instead of French or Italian... and there the same common root language is present.
> 
> If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_English_loanwords_by_country_or_language_of_origin

Many... most... almost all of them are spelled differently than the root.  Some are modified in minor ways, such as the removal of an accent.  Others are modified in more prominent ways.  

But, what I'm really suggesting is that in the context of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, jiu jitsu is no longer a Japanese word at all.  It is a Portuguese word derived from a Japanese root.  It refers to a specific form of grappling, just as distinct as Greco Roman, Freestyle, Catch as Catch Can or Judo.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Yorkshire lad hits it on the head in that I like the different spelling because it allows me to differentiate what it is they are doing most of the time.  That can be very helpful!


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## yorkshirelad

This is the late, great Billy Doak. One of the best example of "Jujitsu" from the UK!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc3PkcREDDw&feature=related


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## Tanaka

In West is really the only place "JiuJitsu" and "Jujutsu" normally get used to determine whether its traditional or not.

In Japan it really determines on the type of Romaji you are using.
Keep in mind that there is more than one type of Romaji. "Jujutsu" is hepburn romanization. It's very easy for Westerners to get the pronunciation versus system like Kunrei-shiki romanization.
That's why it's best to use "Jujutsu" 
But as long as you are pronouncing it correctly. Doesn't really matter.


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## Steve

Pronounced?  You mean joo jitsoo, joo jootsoo or like the brazilians, zhoo zheetsoo?


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## Xue Sheng

No no no&#8230; I have decided, based on my old time &#26580;&#34899; AWESOMENESS&#8230; and attractiveness that ALL Romanized/Westernized spelling are WRONG, be they Japanese or Brazilian&#8230; from this point on you are not, and cannot be, training anywhere NEAR our awesome and attractive level unless you spell it &#26580;&#34899;&#8230;there is NO other way for anyone to even approach the old school AWESOMENESS&#8230;. And attractiveness :uhyeah:

Besides&#8230;we all know what this whole spelling issue is about&#8230;. And you really should not be all that concerned with it&#8230;. I realize as much as our AWESOMENESS&#8230;and attractiveness is something you all desire it is simply not possible for anyone to reach our AWSOME&#8230;and attractive level any longer&#8230;. No one can blame you for trying, we were AWSOME&#8230;and attractive&#8230; but it is simply not possible so give up&#8230; .Just go train whatever you are training and hope&#8230; that someday&#8230;.you can achieve some modicum of our AWSOMENESS &#8230;but the attractiveness&#8230; well I would not set your sights to high. But you all really have to get over this and realize you will never ever achieve our level of AWESOMENESS&#8230;and most certainly not our attractiveness&#8230; not matter how hard you train and no matter how you spell it&#8230; even if you go with &#26580;&#34899;    


But seriously folks, my &#26580;&#34899; are sooooooo far behind me I remember little of it. I was just curious as to how it was suppose to be spelled these days, I did not think it was all that important and certainly not worth arguing about&#8230; which leads me to my current thought of who feakin&#8217; cares, now shut up and train.


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## Chris Parker

Xue Sheng said:


> No no no I have decided, based on my old time &#26580;&#34899; AWESOMENESS and attractiveness that ALL Romanized/Westernized spelling are WRONG, be they Japanese or Brazilian *from this point on you are not, and cannot be, training anywhere NEAR our awesome and attractive level unless you spell it &#26580;&#34899;there is NO other way for anyone to even approach the old school AWESOMENESS. And attractiveness :uhyeah:*
> 
> Besideswe all know what this whole spelling issue is about. And you really should not be all that concerned with it. I realize as much as our AWESOMENESSand attractiveness is something you all desire it is simply not possible for anyone to reach our AWSOMEand attractive level any longer. No one can blame you for trying, we were AWSOMEand attractive but it is simply not possible so give up .Just go train whatever you are training and hope that someday.you can achieve some modicum of our AWSOMENESS but the attractiveness well I would not set your sights to high. But you all really have to get over this and realize you will never ever achieve our level of AWESOMENESSand most certainly not our attractiveness not matter how hard you train and no matter how you spell it even if you go with &#26580;&#34899;
> 
> 
> But seriously folks, my &#26580;&#34899; are sooooooo far behind me I remember little of it. I was just curious as to how it was suppose to be spelled these days, I did not think it was all that important and certainly not worth arguing about which leads me to my current thought of who feakin cares, now shut up and train.


 
Now you're talkin' my language!



stevebjj said:


> Pronounced? You mean joo jitsoo, joo jootsoo or like the brazilians, zhoo zheetsoo?


 
That's the thing, Steve, if we're talking about &#26580;&#34899; (and I've seen BJJ guys using these kanji, or tattooed with them to indicate their art), then none of those pronuciations are correct. The issue is not with the "Jiu/Ju/Jyu/J&#363;" section, it's with the "jitsu" section. It's simply, and plainly, the incorrect pronunciation of the kanji &#34899;

To hear it spoken, it's closer to "j'oo j'ts'", as the first "ju" is a long sound, and the second two "u's" are short (almost swallowed). This discrepency between the two "u" sounds is what lead to the "jitsu" sounding in the first place (the second "u" being almost not heard, and therefore being represented in early romanisation as "i"). The catch is that "i" is said as a harder sound, closer to the Brasilian "zheetsoo" sounding, and is said by stretching the mouth out to the sides, and thin, baring the teeth, whereas the "u" sound is made by pursing the mouth. Different mouth shapes, different pronunciations, different words.

&#34899; is pronounced "jutsu", and no other way (there is no other pronuciation in Japanese for this character), and refers to a "practical art". If this character is used, then the correct pronunciation is jutsu, end of story. "Jitsu" is written with a few different characters, most commonly &#23455; which means "truth". Really, arguing that &#34899; is pronounced "jitsu" is never going to be correct (once again, the Ministry has spoken), and is the same as wanting to write something, so asking to borrow someone's pin.

When it comes to modern, non-Japanese systems using this incorrect pronunciation, well, I accept that it happens, but still maintain that it's not correct. Oh, and as for that "jujitsu" video, that looks to me one of these "modern" systems.... from a more Koryu perspective, there are some rather big signs there.


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> If "Jujutsu" was an English word, it would most likely be spelt "W R E S T L I N G", or "G R A P P L I N G". But it isn't, and shouldn't be treated as one, no matter how common it may seem.


To be honest, actually, it very often was.  At least during the early days of JJJ's entry to the West.  Many times writers, particularly western wrestlers and detractors of JJJ, would refer to it as "Japanese Wrestling" or sometimes "that tricky Japanese wrestling."

During these early days (1901 to about 1915 or so), western wrestlers spilled a great deal of ink explaining in public debates and then in following challenge matches that JJJ was simply their style of wrestling (a fact which none disputed) and JJJ practitioners only won any matches at all because they were using "tricks."  Often the implication was that these were simply techniques which, though represented in the western wrestling lexicon, were not practiced and seldom taught because they were un-manly, cheating, or did not represent any true skill.

I could write pages about the "real" reasons for this, that, and the other, but the fact is, JiuJitsu often was called "Japanese wrestling."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Josh Oakley

but... is jujutsu as AWESOME as Xue-fu?


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## Xue Sheng

Josh Oakley said:


> but... is jujutsu as AWESOME as Xue-fu?


 
:lol: HA HA HA HA HA  NO! :mst:

But it is where the AWSOMENESS that is XUE-FU got it's start


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## Kong Soo Do

stevebjj said:


> And if you're Orthodox, it's jew-jitsu. But that's something else entirely.



That's the proper Japanese way of translating Krav Maga


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## Grasshopper22

It varies, in BJJ (Brazilian JiuJitsu it's spelt like that <-) however in the club that I go to it's spelt 'Ju-Jitsu' or 'Ju Jitsu', id doesn't really matter about the '-'. Most forums I read on the internet spell it 'Jiu Jitsu'.


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## jezr74

Whats the difference (art and spelling) between Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu, is it just colloquial or completely along the same lines as Jujutus and Juijitsu as discussed below?


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## Chris Parker

The Japanese kanji &#34899; is always pronounced "jutsu"&#8230; there really isn't any exceptions at all. With Ninjutsu, it gets more definite (if that's possible), as the incorrect spelling is almost exclusively used by the fake, fraudulent groups (the various "Koga" schools, Ashida Kim, Dan Harmon, Ron Collins etc).

It's the same kanji as in Jujutsu, and the same pronunciation.


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## jezr74

Chris Parker said:


> The Japanese kanji &#34899; is always pronounced "jutsu" there really isn't any exceptions at all. With Ninjutsu, it gets more definite (if that's possible), as the incorrect spelling is almost exclusively used by the fake, fraudulent groups (the various "Koga" schools, Ashida Kim, Dan Harmon, Ron Collins etc).
> 
> It's the same kanji as in Jujutsu, and the same pronunciation.




thanks, thought as much, I've seen it used often in Blitz magazine, which I thought does them a disservice for credibility.


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## Chris Parker

The thing to remember with magazines, whether Black Belt, Blitz, or any other, is that their purpose is to sell magazines&#8230; and, by extension, sell advertising. In other words, their purpose is not to educate&#8230; if an article is submitted, and it's believed it'll help sell, it'll go through. Additionally, fact-checking isn't really high on the priority list&#8230; and it's rare to get anyone close to an expert in any real field outside of magazine management. I've seen cover articles on highly questionable individuals, frauds, and more&#8230; one that springs immediately to mind is a "samurai swordsman" who had a range of DVDs to sell&#8230; so he took out a number of pages of ads&#8230; and got a cover story. The article itself was primarily an interview&#8230; in which he indicated just how bad his "training" actually was&#8230; commenting on how "real" swordsman would tell him his technique wasn't correct&#8230; but he could still cut through a target, so that shows them, huh! (uh, no&#8230; he was terrible)


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## Xue Sheng

:hmm:  None of it matters...we all know it is just another attempt to be as AWESOME&#8230;. And attractive as us old school &#26580;&#34899; guys :mst:.....give it up...you can't get there from here... get over yourself and just envy our AWESOMENESS&#8230;. And attractiveness....... as you all should.... for it is impossible for anyone alive today, who was not there then to even come close to our old school &#26580;&#34899; AWESOMENESS&#8230;. And attractiveness :uhyeah:


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## Chris Parker

Ah, Xue&#8230; still thinking what you did in the 70's was "old school"&#8230; ha!


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## Xue Sheng

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, Xue still thinking what you did in the 70's was "old school" ha!



Your jealousy of our awesomeness and attractiveness is showing


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## Chris Parker

HA!




Er&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; no.


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## jezr74

They must have got wind of this thread.
Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk


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## MattofSilat

jezr74 said:


> They must have got wind of this thread.
> Sent from my Windows Phone using Tapatalk



Anyway that I can access this Magazine from the U.K? Can I just find it online? I could really do with a MA Magazine to read.


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## Chris Parker

MMA, Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, Jiu Jitsu - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

I'm not endorsing it or it's content, nor am I arguing against it, just providing the link.


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## Argus

Jujutsu? Blasphemy!

I insist on _Juujutsu_! Not to mention Juudou, Kendou, Aikidou, Kyuudou, Toukyou, Kyouto, etc.


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## Steve

A pleasant trip down memory lane.  I enjoyed reading the various posts again.  It's fun to see these threads pop back up from time to time.


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## Argus

Steve said:


> A pleasant trip down memory lane.  I enjoyed reading the various posts again.  It's fun to see these threads pop back up from time to time.



Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I enjoyed reading through it, at any rate!

Last post was just a month ago. That's fairly recent in my book, and fair game when the thread's still at the top of the page


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## Steve

Argus said:


> Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I enjoyed reading through it, at any rate!
> 
> Last post was just a month ago. That's fairly recent in my book, and fair game when the thread's still at the top of the page



Not being sarcastic.  Sorry it sounded that way.  


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## Argus

Steve said:


> Not being sarcastic.  Sorry it sounded that way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah, no problem! My mistake.

It's difficult to tell on the internet sometimes. I figured you might be sincere though, given how amusing a read it is 

At any rate, how's that &#33258;&#30001;&#23455; coming along, Steve?


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## Steve

.  I am genuinely tickled at the assertion that jujutsu is a Japanese word.  If that makes sense.  


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## Xue Sheng

Actually &#26580;&#34899; is the Japanese word


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## Argus

Steve said:


> .  I am genuinely tickled at the assertion that jujutsu is a Japanese word.  If that makes sense.



"reality" is "as you want it" to be anyway. 



Xue Sheng said:


> Actually &#26580;&#34899; is the Japanese word



I was making a bad pun 

&#33258;&#30001;&#23455; = _jiyuu jitsu_


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## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually &#26580;&#34899; is the Japanese word



Exactly!  


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