# Anyone know the back story here?



## anerlich (Mar 12, 2017)

Defence-Group

Adopting BJJ belt colours for a WT grading system.


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## drop bear (Mar 12, 2017)

Thats pretty funny.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 12, 2017)

Interesting. Apparently they're somewhere in the WT lineage, but I can't find any info on who the instructor(s) involved are. Their website is Home.

This video of bareknuckle sparring with body contact only gives me a Kyokushin-WT mashup vibe. Not much like what I've seen from most WC/WT/VT folks, although I can see the elements of the style there.


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## Nobody Important (Mar 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. Apparently they're somewhere in the WT lineage, but I can't find any info on who the instructor(s) involved are. Their website is Home.
> 
> This video of bareknuckle sparring with body contact only gives me a Kyokushin-WT mashup vibe. Not much like what I've seen from most WC/WT/VT folks, although I can see the elements of the style there.


I usually try to be impartial when it comes to sparring videos, to each their own, but, that video was utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. And they are adopting the BJJ ranking system to equate a relationship of realism & effectiveness? I seen just about every don't do & bad habit possible exhibited in that "sparring" video. But whatever, to each their own I guess.


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## Danny T (Mar 12, 2017)

Different...


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## wingerjim (Mar 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> Defence-Group
> 
> Adopting BJJ belt colours for a WT grading system.


Each school can do what they choose but I am involved in a traditional WC school and just like Ip Man's school, we have no belts or sashes.


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## Danny T (Mar 13, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Each school can do what they choose...


Agreed.
Some of what was shown from their website is different to what I have been exposed to as wc training.


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## Headhunter (Mar 13, 2017)

Maybe I'm reading it wrong and not understanding it right (very possible as I've spent the last 30 plus years getting punched lol) but what I see is simply a wing chun school is using the belt colours as jiu jitsu but using their own syllabus for it.

Personally I see no problem with it


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Maybe I'm reading it wrong and not understanding it right (very possible as I've spent the last 30 plus years getting punched lol) but what I see is simply a wing chun school is using the belt colours as jiu jitsu but using their own syllabus for it.
> 
> Personally I see no problem with it



Wearing someone elses colors will get you shot in some places.


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## Headhunter (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wearing someone elses colors will get you shot in some places.


Oh yes because someone going to go shoot up a martial art school for wearing the same belt colours....pretty silly comparison. Maybe that happens in street gangs but this is martial arts they've chosen to do that who the hell cares it's not hurting anyone


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## Nobody Important (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Oh yes because someone going to go shoot up a martial art school for wearing the same belt colours....pretty silly comparison. Maybe that happens in street gangs but this is martial arts they've chosen to do that who the hell cares it's not hurting anyone


It's a stolen valor type of thing. By using BJJ ranking they are trying to equate they are on the same level. Maybe they are, maybe not. It's silly, yes and in the grand scheme of things amounts to nothing. It's ridiculous IMO, to ride the coat tails of another's accomplishments to promote yourself, but to each their own. If they wanted a ranking system they could have easily made one up instead a stealing another's.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wearing someone elses colors will get you shot in some places.


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## anerlich (Mar 13, 2017)

I don't have a problem with it, though many KF schools with ranking systems seem to go for red and gold sashes to denote instructorhood rather than black belts.

Unless your traditions become impractical, be proud of them and keep them, IMO.

Some of the FB comments are pretty loopy, and at least one commentator lost his cool big time.


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## anerlich (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wearing someone elses colors will get you shot in some places.



Don't wear a coloured gi to a Rickson seminar.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> Don't wear a coloured gi to a Rickson seminar.



Mine is tye die. You should see some of the looks I get.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Oh yes because someone going to go shoot up a martial art school for wearing the same belt colours....pretty silly comparison. Maybe that happens in street gangs but this is martial arts they've chosen to do that who the hell cares it's not hurting anyone



Have you ever met a Brazilian?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Maybe I'm reading it wrong and not understanding it right (very possible as I've spent the last 30 plus years getting punched lol) but what I see is simply a wing chun school is using the belt colours as jiu jitsu but using their own syllabus for it.
> 
> Personally I see no problem with it


On that part, I see no real controversy, either. Colors, ranks, etc. mean only what they mean to the folks using them. I think it's an odd choice, but if they were using no ranks and wanted to add some, they had to borrow from somewhere.

All the rest of it would be another question, entirely.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Have you ever met a Brazilian?


They are not the only, nor even the first, to use those colors. They selected them from a larger set. Heck, mainline NGA has all of those colors in their ranks, too, plus a couple of extras to spice it up.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> They are not the only, nor even the first, to use those colors. They selected them from a larger set. Heck, mainline NGA has all of those colors in their ranks, too, plus a couple of extras to spice it up.



They are not the first to choke a fool unconscious over a pretend rank either.

But they do tend to do it on video it more often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> They are not the first to choke a fool unconscious over a pretend rank either.
> 
> But they do tend to do it on video it more often.


"Brown" isn't a BJJ rank, is my point. Just because these guys borrowed the color set and sequence from BJJ, they're not claiming BJJ rank, any more than they are claiming NGA rank.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Brown" isn't a BJJ rank, is my point. Just because these guys borrowed the color set and sequence from BJJ, they're not claiming BJJ rank, any more than they are claiming NGA rank.



Exept the colors are no coincidence. They use those colors because of the brand the BJJ colors have created. Thats fine. But one of the reasons BJJ has that brand is because there are BJJ guys who take that sort of brand very seriously.

Rightly or wrongly they realistically may need to back that up with guys who treat BJJ like a religion.


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## Nobody Important (Mar 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Brown" isn't a BJJ rank, is my point. Just because these guys borrowed the color set and sequence from BJJ, they're not claiming BJJ rank, any more than they are claiming NGA rank.


You are right, they are not. I think where the controversy lies is in the claim of equivalence. By using the BJJ system of ranking, they are stating they are on par with them. They may very well be, they may not be. BJJ has a long history of backing up any claim they make. They used this to secure their validity in the martial community. Can this group make the same claim? IMO it is like a mockingbird pretending to be another bird so that it can get a free meal. It isn't fair for a system to sacrifice and develop a set of standards so that someone else can pretend to do the same and gain from it. Imitation may be a form of flattery, but it is still a form of stolen valor. They could have easily created any type of ranking system, hell some TKD schools have a camouflage belt. It isn't hard to create a ranking system, no need to steal one from a respected style. Let alone a Japanese one for a Chinese style, China has a Duan system they could have used.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> You are right, they are not. I think where the controversy lies is in the claim of equivalence. By using the BJJ system of ranking, they are stating they are on par with them. They may very well be, they may not be. BJJ has a long history of backing up any claim they make. They used this to secure their validity in the martial community. Can this group make the same claim? IMO it is like a mockingbird pretending to be another bird so that it can get a free meal. It isn't fair for a system to sacrifice and develop a set of standards so that someone else can pretend to do the same and gain from it. Imitation may be a form of flattery, but it is still a form of stolen valor. They could have easily created any type of ranking system, hell some TKD schools have a camouflage belt. It isn't hard to create a ranking system, no need to steal one from a respected style. Let alone a Japanese one for a Chinese style, China has a Duan system they could have used.


I guess I've never really cared much what ranks were in other styles, as long as it worked for them. It seems an uninteresting controversy to me.


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## geezer (Mar 13, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> They could have easily created any type of ranking system, hell some TKD schools have a camouflage belt. It isn't hard to create a ranking system, no need to steal one from a respected style. Let alone a Japanese one for a Chinese style, China has a Duan system they could have used.



Yeah. I think you've got that "stolen valor" thing about right. If what they teach is really effective, any ranking system will do. Or none.

Personally, I find ranking a perfectly acceptable way to teach in today's world, and it's a great way to motivate students to progress through the curriculum. But what makes the BJJ belt system so respected is that it is simple, ranks are earned slowly with considerable investment of time, and then they are tested against non-compliant partners. _And the (grappling) system as a whole is constantly tested and evolving through competition._ At least that's what I've been hearing (I'm not a BJJ guy).

...So if WC/WT/VT wants to get real respect, maybe_ that's_ what we should be copying, not ripping off somebody else's rank system. just sayin'.

BTW, am I the only one that thought that the guy (the instructor?) in that flippy-floppy chi-sau clip had his head in a very dangerous position ....considering that not all combat will be restricted to body shots?


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## anerlich (Mar 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Mine is tye die. You should see some of the looks I get.



A friend of mine wore pink pants and a tie died top for a while. A few of Matt Thornton's guys used to rock them as well.


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## Nobody Important (Mar 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I guess I've never really cared much what ranks were in other styles, as long as it worked for them. It seems an uninteresting controversy to me.


Personally, I could care less about rank or association. But to some people or organizations (especially the military) trying to align yourself or put yourself in the same league as someone else without proving it is a big deal. It's deceitful, I get it but nothing to loose sleep over. People can do what they like, they just need to realize there may be consequences to deal with. In this instance it was something that could have easily been avoided, they purposely choose to mimic BBJ in structure to ride the coat tails of their reputation. To each their own, but beware retaliation from those prepared to defend any honor they feel challenged.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2017)

geezer said:


> BTW, am I the only one that thought that the guy (the instructor?) in that flippy-floppy chi-sau clip had his head in a very dangerous position ....considering that not all combat will be restricted to body shots?


When I watched it, I said to my wife, "Somebody needs to give him a quick slap. That'll move that head back."


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## JR 137 (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Oh yes because someone going to go shoot up a martial art school for wearing the same belt colours....pretty silly comparison. Maybe that happens in street gangs but this is martial arts they've chosen to do that who the hell cares it's not hurting anyone



I'm quite sure Drop Bear's joke that you quoted went way over your head.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> A friend of mine wore pink pants and a tie died top for a while. A few of Matt Thornton's guys used to rock them as well.



Tie dye is awsome.  And nicely spruces up a tired white gi.


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## anerlich (Mar 13, 2017)

geezer said:


> BTW, am I the only one that thought that the guy (the instructor?) in that flippy-floppy chi-sau clip had his head in a very dangerous position ....considering that not all combat will be restricted to body shots?



No, that was rubbish. I kept wishing the other guy would just punch him in the face and put a stop to it.


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## Steve (Mar 13, 2017)

I've dyed many a Gi.  Mostly stick with blue these days.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2017)

anerlich said:


> No, that was rubbish. I kept wishing the other guy would just punch him in the face and put a stop to it.


Agreed. He was taking advantage of the bodyshot-only format, getting in more bodyshots because he was leaning his head in. Just one slap would have removed that advantage.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 14, 2017)

I couldn't imagine what theory's a ranking system could bring with it until I read this topic. It is hilarious......


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## JR 137 (Mar 14, 2017)

Don't criticize these guys too harshly; they're only blue belts...


Tony Dismukes said:


>



Here's true black belts look like in their system...


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## PiedmontChun (Mar 27, 2017)

BJJ is unique for having fewer recognized belt rankings so you logically spend much more time in that rank before promoting. It *is* recognizable since it is so standardized, but that is not what makes BJJ respectable. It seems silly for an MA that is worlds apart from BJJ to copy just an outward trapping of it. A pointless innovation perhaps?

That video..... I would not have thought that to be sparring, but yet 'sparring' is part of the title? Calling trading strikes back and forth with no real intent 'sparring' would seem to be a much bigger cause for confusion than your belt system not being recognizable to the rest of the MA world (I would think).


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## Danny T (Mar 27, 2017)

For what it's worth the colors shown in the OP isn't belts but colored patches.
And many very good legitimate BJJ schools use colors at the lower levels than just White to Blue. The North American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation requires White, Gray,Yellow, Orange, and Green prior to Blue for ages 15 and under.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2017)

Danny T said:


> For what it's worth the colors shown in the OP isn't belts but colored patches.
> And many very good legitimate BJJ schools use colors at the lower levels than just White to Blue. The North American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation requires White, Gray,Yellow, Orange, and Green prior to Blue for ages 15 and under.


Just FYI, the idea, and I think it's a good one, is that a blue belt for kids is like the black belt for adults.   Kids work toward their first adult rank.   And also, fwiw, this has not changed significantly since at least 2005 when I started training.


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> hell some TKD schools have a camouflage belt.



I just can't see that.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2017)

Buka said:


> I just can't see that.


That's because it's camouflaged.


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's because it's camouflaged.



Exactly.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2017)

Makes yiu wonder why hunters wear orange vests but carry a camo wallet.


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## anerlich (Mar 27, 2017)

Danny T said:


> For what it's worth the colors shown in the OP isn't belts but colored patches.
> And many very good legitimate BJJ schools use colors at the lower levels than just White to Blue. The North American Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation requires White, Gray,Yellow, Orange, and Green prior to Blue for ages 15 and under.



THat's close to standard IBJJF.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Steve said:


> Just FYI, the idea, and I think it's a good one, is that a blue belt for kids is like the black belt for adults.   Kids work toward their first adult rank.   And also, fwiw, this has not changed significantly since at least 2005 when I started training.


I like having separate ranks for kids. This concept exists in NGA, too. Kids (originally 12-15 years old, I think, but has expanded in many schools) get 3 junior ranks, I think (yellow, blue, green), then can test for adult yellow. It's visually more confusing than the approach in the BJJ Federation (because the same colors are used for the first three adult ranks), but a similar idea.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 6, 2017)

I had quite a discussion with these guys on fb lol. Apparently they are a BJJ school (the most effective martial art on the planet! - according to them). Someone at some point has picked up a little WT, but not up to instructor level it would seem, and they have admittedly heavily modified/filled in the gaps to the point that the little bit that they have shouldn't even be classified at WT anymore. When I called them out on lineage, they deflected me. 

Their "unified" grading system for the "entire" WT lineage around the world is a bunch of made up junk, and with the inconsistencies I see in everything else, I seriously doubt their BJJ credentials as well. And reading the description of their system on the patches tells me they really don't know anything about the WT curriculum other than what they may have read on the internet.


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## Phobius (Aug 7, 2017)

Fun thing is this being a German group / school using WingTsun as name when in same country as Kernspecht who mind you has been quite on the defensive protecting his trademark WingTsun™.

Of course that is just silly, but still those guys may get some heat eventually.

Sad part is that to me the video indicates that they have no idea exactly what they are doing and may cause their students to injure themselves. Then again I may be wrong, not a lot of material to go by.


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

anerlich said:


> I don't have a problem with it, though many KF schools with ranking systems seem to go for red and gold sashes to denote instructorhood rather than black belts.
> 
> Unless your traditions become impractical, be proud of them and keep them, IMO.
> 
> Some of the FB comments are pretty loopy, and at least one commentator lost his cool big time.



"A belt covers 2 inches of your @$$.  You are responsible for the rest"

Royce Gracie - yes he actually says that at his seminars or at least the one I went to.


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## JR 137 (Aug 13, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> "A belt covers 2 inches of your @$$.  You are responsible for the rest"
> 
> Royce Gracie - yes he actually says that at his seminars or at least the one I went to.


Such a great line.  I'll have to borrow that one.


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> I usually try to be impartial when it comes to sparring videos, to each their own, but, that video was utterly ridiculous and unrealistic. And they are adopting the BJJ ranking system to equate a relationship of realism & effectiveness? I seen just about every don't do & bad habit possible exhibited in that "sparring" video. But whatever, to each their own I guess.



Using this scale of realism and effectiveness LOL.


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