# Is wing chun effective at all?



## JzHernandez77 (May 9, 2013)

I want to learn and have asked a lot of questions on many other sites about wing chun and they just bash on it every time, that it does not work that its useless I mean I don't know if it is or not can someone that has been using win chun for a long period or anyone that has had experiences where wing chun has helped you tell me about it, seriously this is the last time I ask about it I'm going to make up my mind of learning wing chun or another style, is it useless or not?


----------



## Cyriacus (May 9, 2013)

Like most things, it isnt exactly like training. But as far as i know, it 'works'. But you need a bit more context than that.


----------



## mook jong man (May 10, 2013)

No , I find it to be a very wimpy martial art mainly practiced by nancy boys and sissies.

Stay well away from it , the mere practice of it will cause your testosterone levels to plummet.


----------



## Mauthos (May 10, 2013)

In all honesty Wing Chun isn't for me, but having tried it a number of times I can without doubt say that in a practical situation I feel that it would 'work' and be very effective at that.  It came across as a powerful style that works to keep you safe without expending too much of your own energy.

Part of me wishes it did fit for me, but hey Kenpo will have to do for me.   Hope that helps.


----------



## WingChunIan (May 10, 2013)

Wing Chun as a style is more effective than most systems and styles out there, but ultimately it depends on who is teaching and how you train. Mosy of the folks who derride Wing Chun do so because it has never been shown as effective in MMA but miss the point that Wing Chun is not designed for nor trained for the sporting environment. If you are young and athletic or powerfully built then MMA is a good route to go for you or you could simply train muay thai and BJJ, but if you want something that doesn't rely heavilly on strength and athletism then you'll have to look elsewhere and Wing Chun as stated previously is as good as or better than most things available.


----------



## JzHernandez77 (May 10, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> Wing Chun as a style is more effective than most systems and styles out there, but ultimately it depends on who is teaching and how you train. Mosy of the folks who derride Wing Chun do so because it has never been shown as effective in MMA but miss the point that Wing Chun is not designed for nor trained for the sporting environment. If you are young and athletic or powerfully built then MMA is a good route to go for you or you could simply train muay thai and BJJ, but if you want something that doesn't rely heavilly on strength and athletism then you'll have to look elsewhere and Wing Chun as stated previously is as good as or better than most things available.




Well I have searched the website of where I am planning to learn wing chun and the master who taught the master thier was taught by ip Ching which is ip man's son and also 1 of the 5 grandmasters left and I don't only want to learn wing chun but I want to start with it


----------



## Domino (May 10, 2013)

JzHernandez77 said:


> Well I have searched the website of where I am planning to learn wing chun and the master who taught the master thier was taught by ip Ching which is ip man's son and also 1 of the 5 grandmasters left and I don't only want to learn wing chun but I want to start with it



If you're asking the question without touching hands and trying it out... its not for you I think.


----------



## mograph (May 10, 2013)

From what I've heard, Wing Chun is all flowery fists and embroidery kicks ... very pretty, but just for show.

... y'know, kinda like Xingyi.




Look. Just go to the place and try a class. Don't make this decision based on what you read in an internet forum.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2013)

WingChunIan said:


> Wing Chun as a style is more effective than most systems and styles out there, but ultimately it depends on who is teaching and how you train. Mosy of the folks who derride Wing Chun do so because it has never been shown as effective in MMA but miss the point that Wing Chun is not designed for nor trained for the sporting environment. If you are young and athletic or powerfully built then MMA is a good route to go for you or you could simply train muay thai and BJJ, but if you want something that doesn't rely heavilly on strength and athletism then you'll have to look elsewhere and Wing Chun as stated previously is as good as or better than most things available.


If you are young, athletic or powerfully built, you could do well in any martial arts style.  Look, guys, I get that you're defending your own art, but don't drag mine into it.  BJJ is a terrific art for all ages, builds and fitness levels.  I train with men and women of all ages and sizes, from very small to very large. 

I would presume that WC is the same as any style.  Find the right school and you'll learn WC.  Whether it's good for anything will depend upon the quality of the training and the qualifications of the instructor.


----------



## StormShadow (May 10, 2013)

JzHernandez77 said:


> I want to learn and have asked a lot of questions on many other sites about wing chun and they just bash on it every time, that it does not work that its useless I mean I don't know if it is or not can someone that has been using win chun for a long period or anyone that has had experiences where wing chun has helped you tell me about it, seriously this is the last time I ask about it I'm going to make up my mind of learning wing chun or another style, is it useless or not?



Wing chun is not effective at all.  I wouldn't try it. Stick to mma... you can become a super hero.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2013)

Frankly, the effectiveness of the art has taken a back seat to passive-aggressive sarcasm and condescension running rampant in this thread.  I hope that you guys make a better first impression in real life.


----------



## StormShadow (May 10, 2013)

Steve said:


> Frankly, the effectiveness of the art has taken a back seat to passive-aggressive sarcasm and condescension running rampant in this thread.  I hope that you guys make a better first impression in real life.



The effectiveness of the art depends on knowledge of the art and the person using it.  Plain and simple.  "NonSarcastic" realism.


----------



## grumpywolfman (May 10, 2013)

When a man is attacking a woman its usually going to be in a controlling manner: grabbing, pulling, pushing, slapping, holding, etc..  It this type of stimulus, in my opinion, where styles like Wing Chun and Aikido shine as intelligent choices for women in self defense (and I highly suggest adding BJJ for the ground).

When a man attacks another man, unless he intends to grapple, it's usually going to be to pummel them into mash potatoes as quickly as possible. I think Wing Chun shines through best for a man when in a confined space (where movement is very limited), or if the attacker is crowding him. Much less trapping will likely be involved for the WC man as he attacks his opponent's center line, and the "T-position" becomes highly favorable to gain to limit the attacker's movement; likely causing him to try and use the controlling stimulus that Wing Chun will thrive on. So I think for the male Wing Chun practitioner, it would be wise to add a long distance game (I suggest JKD); although I don't think this is necessary if you are only taking WC for self defense purposes. What you will commonly see in the WC vs. anything videos, is the WC man standing like a statue waiting for the close quarters stimulus that his style feeds on, but getting mowed down because he has no long range or ground game.


----------



## mook jong man (May 10, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> When a man is attacking a woman its usually going to be in a controlling manner: grabbing, pulling, pushing, slapping, holding, etc..  It this type of stimulus, in my opinion, where styles like Wing Chun and Aikido shine as intelligent choices for women in self defense (and I highly suggest adding BJJ for the ground).
> 
> When a man attacks another man, unless he intends to grapple, it's usually going to be to pummel them into mash potatoes as quickly as possible. I think Wing Chun shines through best for a man when in a confined space (where movement is very limited), or if the attacker is crowding him. Much less trapping will likely be involved for the WC man as he attacks his opponent's center line, and the "T-position" becomes highly favorable to gain to limit the attacker's movement; likely causing him to try and use the controlling stimulus that Wing Chun will thrive on. So I think for the male Wing Chun practitioner, it would be wise to add a long distance game (I suggest JKD); although I don't think this is necessary if you are only taking WC for self defense purposes. What you will commonly see in the WC vs. anything videos, is the WC man standing like a statue waiting for the close quarters stimulus that his style feeds on, but getting mowed down because he has no long range or ground game.



What do you call a long range game?
Have you ever seen a guy bridge a 3 metre gap with a charging knee so fast that you could hardly see him move?
I have , my master used to do it.
My lineage uses the charging knee to bridge the gap when an opponent is out of kicking range.
Do not presume that you know all of Wing Chun from watching videos , most of the best people don't put out a lot of video of their stuff.


----------



## mograph (May 10, 2013)

Steve said:


> Frankly, the effectiveness of the art has taken a back seat to passive-aggressive sarcasm and condescension running rampant in this thread.  I hope that you guys make a better first impression in real life.


I apologize for the sarcasm, but the OP's question was not well-considered at all ("useless?") and in the end, I did make a practical suggestion that would give the OP much more than can be gleaned from an internet forum: get to a class and try it out.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2013)

mograph said:


> I apologize for the sarcasm, but the OP's question was not well-considered at all ("useless?") and in the end, I did make a practical suggestion that would give the OP much more than can be gleaned from an internet forum: get to a class and try it out.


I get it.  It's all good.  Just seemed a little like ganging up on a new guy to me.  I think it's easy to forget when we were new and didn't know what was what.  If the original post was genuine and not a troll, I think it warrants an honest, non-sarcastic answer.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 10, 2013)

Then the honest answer is it all depends on who trains you and how you train.


And it is exactly the same for any martial art


----------



## yak sao (May 10, 2013)

This whole long range/short range argument applies only to sport.
All said and done, there is only one range...contact range. WC builds a bridge to the attacking limb, whether it's a kick or a punch and moves in to a range that helps to nullify much of what our attacker is trying to accomplish.

An opponent intent on taking you out is going to mow you over. He's not goingt to nancy around and take pot shots at you.


----------



## grumpywolfman (May 10, 2013)

mook jong man said:


> What do you call a long range game?
> Have you ever seen a guy bridge a 3 metre gap with a charging knee so fast that you could hardly see him move?
> I have , my master used to do it.
> My lineage uses the charging knee to bridge the gap when an opponent is out of kicking range.
> Do not presume that you know all of Wing Chun from watching videos , most of the best people don't put out a lot of video of their stuff.



For Wing Chun to work you must maintain proper structure, it excels in close quarters; there are other fighting styles that move more freely with less restrictions on body movement for greater reach. And your three meter charging knee would get you knocked out if you tried that against me; don't presume you know everything there is about fighting either :asian:


----------



## Vajramusti (May 10, 2013)

JzHernandez77 said:


> I want to learn and have asked a lot of questions on many other sites about wing chun and they just bash on it every time, that it does not work that its useless I mean I don't know if it is or not can someone that has been using win chun for a long period or anyone that has had experiences where wing chun has helped you tell me about it, seriously this is the last time I ask about it I'm going to make up my mind of learning wing chun or another style, is it useless or not?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Depends on what kind of instruction you get and what kind of student you are.

I have been doing wing chun since 1976 and have never looked bad or have any regrets.

I f you don't search for and get  good instruction and practice diligently- do something else.


----------



## mook jong man (May 10, 2013)

grumpywolfman said:


> For Wing Chun to work you must maintain proper structure, it excels in close quarters; there are other fighting styles that move more freely with less restrictions on body movement for greater reach. And your three meter charging knee would get you knocked out if you tried that against me; don't presume you know everything there is about fighting either :asian:



I said my master could bridge a gap of about 3 metres in the blink of an eye , I didn't say I could.
I do it a lot closer , from just out of kicking range .

You think we just charge right in without our hands up in the guard position ? , the hands are up ready to intercept anything that comes in.
The charging knee is just there to cover you from getting kicked so you can get into close range and use your hands to knock the other person out.

Maintaining proper structure is about keeping your spine straight and the proper angles of your arms , we can still do that whilst moving from long range to close range or even out of range.


----------



## mograph (May 11, 2013)

Steve said:


> I get it.  It's all good.  Just seemed a little like ganging up on a new guy to me.  I think it's easy to forget when we were new and didn't know what was what.  If the original post was genuine and not a troll, I think it warrants an honest, non-sarcastic answer.


Fair enough, _mea culpa_.

Maybe now would be a good time for the OP to come back in, having been given more info, and give some feedback on the replies. Have they addressed his/her concerns? Have the replies led to _new_ questions or concerns? Is clarification required? Is there anything mentioned that the OP would like expounded upon?


----------



## JzHernandez77 (May 11, 2013)

First thanks to everyone that answerd I appreciate it I am  a newbie  to martial arts especially wing chun I haven't started learning but I plan to,I won't ask a question to troll or to screw around so take my newbie questions seriously cause I seriously don't know, so if you use wing chun has it helped in any situation where you had to defend yourself like for example a random guy going crazy and swinging at you something around that situation


----------



## Mr. President (May 12, 2013)

Wing Chun, like any martial art, is only as effective as you make it. There is no "effectiveness scale" where you can place each art. That being said, WC is a close range, rapid street style self defense method that, if applied correctly, can easily overwhelm an opponent. 

Bottom line - Find a good teacher, dedicate yourself and push yourself to always do better, and WC will work just fine.


----------



## Argus (May 12, 2013)

JzHernandez77 said:


> First thanks to everyone that answerd I appreciate it I am  a newbie  to martial arts especially wing chun I haven't started learning but I plan to,I won't ask a question to troll or to screw around so take my newbie questions seriously cause I seriously don't know, so if you use wing chun has it helped in any situation where you had to defend yourself like for example a random guy going crazy and swinging at you something around that situation



Wing Chun is well known as a very practical art for self defense. It is, however, very hard to use in a sportive context - especially if all you've ever trained is Wing Chun.

The reason for this is primarily distance management. Wing Chun is a close-quarters system - it's not designed for, and doesn't work in long distance fighting, as you see in boxing, for example. So if you are going to use Wing Chun in the ring, you need to really train to deal with boxers, grapplers, and the like.

However, Wing Chun is very easy to apply in self defense because if someone is actually trying to hurt you, they're not going to dance around out of range and try to take potshots at you (or, at least, if they do, you're free to ignore them and disengage.) They will move in on you. This is where Wing Chun works very well, and is very efficient.

Now, there are skilled practitioners who used Wing Chun very successfully in combat by mutual agreement. Lok Yiu and Wong Shun Leung were noted for competing in Beimo matches in the 50's. But to use Wing Chun competitively like that, I believe you need to be very intelligent, very skilled, and very experienced.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 12, 2013)

The only problem I have ever come across in Wing Chun effectiveness, and I have come across this in other arts as well (Aikido, Aikijutsu, Taijiquan, Karate, TKD, etc.), is the propensity to only train with Wing Chun people. They become very effective against other Wing Chun people but when they come up against another style they have problems and then they are surprised by that. I saw that in a guy who I think is a highly skilled martial arts and his art is Wing Chun.

I was a student and having issues because of my CMA background (Taiji and Xingyi) and all of the other students were having real issues with my attacks and defenses. I was trying real hard to do Wing Chun but every defense I used was Taiji and al my attacks were Xingyiquan. They finally asked the sifu what they could do against me. I apologized and told them all it was me and I was trying real hard to go with Wing Chun but things were happening automatically. The sifu told me to do an attack and I did and we ended up locked. I knew if I moved he could strike me and he knew if he moved I was in a position to take him down and then he said... he had no idea what to do, other than stopping me, which he had done.

He is an incredibly skilled Wing Chun person in a rather solid lineage but he had only been dealing with Wing Chun people for years.

But this can be any martial art, not just Wing Chun.

Fast forward with another incredibly skilled Wing Chun sifu, who is much more relaxed than the first one; he can and has stopped me and pummeled me and it was mighty cool. He has also said he can't give me time to connect or my Taiji might win the day so he does not give me the time. Interesting call there because in the first case my next move, if he moved, was Cao (Shoulder strike from Taiji)


----------



## mook jong man (May 12, 2013)

One of the problems that I see with people  getting locked up in chi sau , is that people try and think of some sort of  pivoting move to try and get out of it.
They seem to forget that they have legs , don't stuff around with pivoting , immediately low heel kick him in the shin , that should break the stale mate as well as his leg.
Any Wing Chun person worth their salt should be adept at kicking the opponents legs within chi sau range without being detected and while still having control of the opponents arms.


----------



## Argus (May 12, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> The only problem I have ever come across in Wing Chun effectiveness, and I have come across this in other arts as well (Aikido, Aikijutsu, Taijiquan, Karate, TKD, etc.), is the propensity to only train with Wing Chun people. They become very effective against other Wing Chun people but when they come up against another style they have problems and then they are surprised by that. I saw that in a guy who I think is a highly skilled martial arts and his art is Wing Chun.
> 
> I was a student and having issues because of my CMA background (Taiji and Xingyi) and all of the other students were having real issues with my attacks and defenses. I was trying real hard to do Wing Chun but every defense I used was Taiji and al my attacks were Xingyiquan. They finally asked the sifu what they could do against me. I apologized and told them all it was me and I was trying real hard to go with Wing Chun but things were happening automatically. The sifu told me to do an attack and I did and we ended up locked. I knew if I moved he could strike me and he knew if he moved I was in a position to take him down and then he said... he had no idea what to do, other than stopping me, which he had done.
> 
> ...



Very true. And I think this is one of the biggest problems most TMA practitioners have -- being stuck in a bubble.

I wonder though, what chance do you have to train with people of different arts?  I'm not aware of many schools that actually invite people from other arts to practice with them, and I don't think that approaching other schools for any reason other than enrolling is likely to be well received.  Everyone seems pretty content in their bubbles.


----------



## StormShadow (May 14, 2013)

Argus said:


> Very true. And I think this is one of the biggest problems most TMA practitioners have -- being stuck in a bubble.
> 
> I wonder though, what chance do you have to train with people of different arts?  I'm not aware of many schools that actually invite people from other arts to practice with them, and I don't think that approaching other schools for any reason other than enrolling is likely to be well received.  Everyone seems pretty content in their bubbles.



I believe a reason that could be is no one wants to truly face the "holes" in their art; especially in front of students.  Now students are questioning, themselves, the art, the training and possibly the instructors. Likely only very confident schools, secure in their beliefs would "cross-spar" with other schools. I love wing chun though I do not believe wing chun is the absolute system of perfection.  I believe no system on planet earth is of absolute perfection.  Every system has holes that can be exploited, though some exploited easier than others. 

I do not have any experience cross-sparring with other schools but references videos that I've seen of it being done, it looked like a mma spectator sport taking place.  It seemed like the schools involved was out to prove something instead of trying to learn. In one video I can recall, this one particular school was incredibly dishonorable with their instructors laughing at a student from another school if he slipped or happened to get hit.  These attitudes may also what some sifu's are looking to keep their students from witnessing first hand in what should be a learning experience and not made into a competitive sport to be gawked at with taunts and comments.


----------



## Danny T (May 14, 2013)

We train several different arts and spar against the different arts often. We also have an open policy with the different schools in Louisiana. Anyone from any school is welcome to our open sparring sessions and we travel to a lot of different schools to spar. There many schools which do not participate but many who do. Some TMA schools do participate and most all the MMA gyms do participate. Of those who do not all but a few are TMA. 
Our rules, 
'Leave your Ego at the door', 
'There are NO WINNERS or LOSERS',
'This is not a Test of Your Skill but a Test of your ability to Learn and Grow.'
'Leave as a Friend'
'If you can not do that then don't come in'.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 14, 2013)

Many years ago I was at a Chinese Marital Arts school where the Sifu allowed us to stay a couple extra hours after all his classes were done and beat the heck out of each other. There were a lot of different styles there, Aikido, TKD, Southern Mantis, Judo, etc. And it was an incredible learning experience.

More recently I took my Taijiquan push hands to work with some Wing Chun guys, that too was pretty cool


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2013)

Once a long time ago I was at an informal workout with a whole bunch of people with different backgrounds.  After just training with everyone we also did some very heavy contact sparring.  I watched a Wing Chun guy dismantle a kickboxer only to be dismantled later on by a point fighter. (who trained in Shotokan)  I also had the opportunity to watch a collegiate wrestler get knocked senseless by a boxer.  A couple of the Tae Kwon Do guy's also were kicking serious butt during almost all of their sparring matches.  Everything was fun, friendly and a good workout.  Bottom line is that the individual is responsible for making their training work (ie. style) and an individual with the right physical and mental attributes will usually be successful!  If you do not have those attributes you probably will be mediocre at best.


----------



## wingchunguy (Jan 14, 2015)

I would like to clarify about range management. Since wing chun IS a close combat system, it is strongest at close combat range (about 2 feet or less). Now the problem with most wing chun systems, ESPECIALLY the modified systems like Moy Yat and that fraud, Lueng Ting, is that they do not teach you how to properly close the distance or gap (the first one is when contact is made, the second when no contact is made), and don't teach you to ENTER when the contact is released, or when you are close enough and an opening in your opponent's defenses occur. This is a MAJOR flaw because staying at mid range is dangerous and leaves you open to attack from kicks, punches, and even the take down. You must understand that these modified systems are lacking and inferior to the real traditional, as in William Cheung's lineage, or even Wong Shun Leung's lineage, who, even though it is modified, was extremely smart and wise enough to know that you have close the gap for this system to be effective. His is the only modified lineage that does this, and this is what makes his lineage so good. Also, Moy Yat's and Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems, which is also a big mistake on their part. You need this to get the ability to judge distance, timing, and to hone your response against other systems and other fighters, because each fighter, even in the same system, has their own unique style and peculiarities that might cause trouble for the wing chun practitioner.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 14, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> .........*that fraud, Lueng Ting*, .................................... and *Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems*



Not going to win many friends on here with that approach. I am from LT lineage...we spar other lineages, in fact I have a standing invitation to any WC guy of any lineage and any MAist of any style, including boxers and wrestlers, to come and train/spar with me or my group.

And yes, we spend a lot of time closing the gap as well.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 14, 2015)

wingchunguy said:


> I would like to clarify about range management. Since wing chun IS a close combat system, it is strongest at close combat range (about 2 feet or less). Now the problem with most wing chun systems, ESPECIALLY the modified systems like Moy Yat and that fraud, Lueng Ting, is that they do not teach you how to properly close the distance or gap (the first one is when contact is made, the second when no contact is made), and don't teach you to ENTER when the contact is released, or when you are close enough and an opening in your opponent's defenses occur. This is a MAJOR flaw because staying at mid range is dangerous and leaves you open to attack from kicks, punches, and even the take down. You must understand that these modified systems are lacking and inferior to the real traditional, as in William Cheung's lineage, or even Wong Shun Leung's lineage, who, even though it is modified, was extremely smart and wise enough to know that you have close the gap for this system to be effective. His is the only modified lineage that does this, and this is what makes his lineage so good. Also, Moy Yat's and Leung Ting's lineage DO NOT SPAR against other systems, which is also a big mistake on their part. You need this to get the ability to judge distance, timing, and to hone your response against other systems and other fighters, because each fighter, even in the same system, has their own unique style and peculiarities that might cause trouble for the wing chun practitioner.


I've yet to see 'Any' wc system that was not modified is some manner.
Don't get hung up in the marketing or the politics and I respectfully request that you don't come here spewing it either.
I've seen some good wc from most every wc system/style I've been exposed to. I've also seen bad wc from the same.


----------



## Mephisto (Jan 14, 2015)

Lots of conjecture in this thread, hiding behind the accolades of an instructor, and "common knowledge" appeal. WC is probably fine for self defense against an averaged sized untrained attacker any training is better than nothing. But what about a skilled fighter? Someone accustomed to violence? Schools that spat and train hard contact will best prepare you for this kind of violent encounter. If you are used to dealing with an aggressive opponent you will be prepared for reality. Some wc schools train this way but many do not. Wc is a striking art there is no reason wc can't dominate other striking arts in a sparring match, save the fact that a lot of wc guys can't apply the art to a resisting opponent. If you can't apply your craft to a resisting opponent in a sparring situation what makes you think it will work in real life? People see sporting events and compare it to reality. In reality a person will probably enter and unload, this happens in sports matches too when fighters are not evenly matched. We've all seen plenty of ko under the 30sec mark. But for the "play" to happen in a sport one fighter must demonstrate a defense. Keep in mind sports display a fight between skilled fighters, if you can defend a skilled attack you can defend an unskilled attack. If you think this is untrue go to a fighting gym, they are used to guys coming in to spar, they don't take it as an insult, and they oblige. They'll even find you a guy of equal weight and time spent training.


----------



## WcForMe (Jan 15, 2015)

I am no where near as experienced as some of these guys posting but the point of a wc man/women not doing so well agaist other styles is a point I have raised in the past. The main reason for this is as said before if a wing Chun fighter only fights a wing fighter you learn and rely on those specific angles of attacks IMO. When I have sparred other styles the attack angles of there hands and feet change dramatically. Wing Chun is not a dead system it relies on the person using it to have the foresight and brains to understand that you need to make the system work for you and your body type. Just because your teacher/Sifu/coach can make something work doesn't mean you can if he's 6ft 2 and your 5ft 7 or visa versa. So my point is if you don't train agaist odd angles of attacks or a guy that's a brawler swinging wildly you will fail. Yes you need structure and correct arm angles but tell me on the street relastically how many times are you going to come across say a straight punch which you've been training to stop since you started? Food for thought I think! But if you disagree let me know.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

WcForMe said:


> I am no where near as experienced as some of these guys posting but the point of a wc man/women not doing so well agaist other styles is a point I have raised in the past. The main reason for this is as said before if a wing Chun fighter only fights a wing fighter you learn and rely on those specific angles of attacks IMO. When I have sparred other styles the attack angles of there hands and feet change dramatically. Wing Chun is not a dead system it relies on the person using it to have the foresight and brains to understand that you need to make the system work for you and your body type. Just because your teacher/Sifu/coach can make something work doesn't mean you can if he's 6ft 2 and your 5ft 7 or visa versa. So my point is if you don't train agaist odd angles of attacks or a guy that's a brawler swinging wildly you will fail. Yes you need structure and correct arm angles but tell me on the street relastically how many times are you going to come across say a straight punch which you've been training to stop since you started? Food for thought I think! But if you disagree let me know.



I asked a similar question at class the other night of a 1st Technician, who also happens to be a boxer and has experience in other Kung Fu. I never realized this, but when the IRIS is done right (trying to remember the acronym) and the stance is right, IE the quads and what not strengthens, it is not as unfluid as it it seems. Sorry I am not up on a lot of the WC terminology just yet, but from what I saw, a brawler would be taken in seconds, if not milliseconds. Of course this may well not just be confined to WC, but what I saw from the higher grades the other night, it works!


----------



## Dylan9d (Jan 15, 2015)

An art is as good as it's practitioner!

That said, the type of art has to be for you specifically. I tried some Wing or Ving Tsun and i had the feeling that i had to adjust my body (postures, stances etc) to much. I was used to using more natural stances in the Silat i did and couldn't used to WC/VT.

So just take some classes and see if it's for you, if it's not just look for something else, simple


----------



## yak sao (Jan 15, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> , but when the IRIS is done right (trying to remember the acronym) and the stance is right, IE the quads and what not strengthens, it is not as unfluid as it it seems. Sorry I am not up on a lot of the WC terminology just yet,



IRAS. *I*nternally *R*otated *A*dduction Stance

The EWTO coined this term to describe the Character Two stance (Yee Gee Kim Yuen Ma).

And you're right, this stance, while very restrictive feeling in the beginning, is very mobile and fluid. In fact, I would say that about WT/WC as a whole. At first you are consumed with structure, stance etc. but the time comes when you break through all of that and it becomes about movement.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 15, 2015)

Dylan9d said:


> An art is as good as it's practitioner!
> 
> That said, the type of art has to be for you specifically. I tried some Wing or Ving Tsun and i had the feeling that i had to adjust my body (postures, stances etc) to much. I was used to using more natural stances in the Silat i did and couldn't used to WC/VT.
> 
> So just take some classes and see if it's for you, if it's not just look for something else, simple




I was the same in the beginning. I came from a different southern kung fu system which I had trained in for 14 years and found the structures, footwork and stances of WT very foreign to my way of moving and thinking but I stuck it out.
In fact, for whatever reason, I saw WTs potential after that first day of training and stopped training that other system that very day.
It took a lot of retooling and rewiring of muscle memory but I am here to tell you it was worth it.
I am now 20 years into WT and my only regret is I didn't find it 20 years sooner.


----------



## Dylan9d (Jan 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I was the same in the beginning. I came from a different southern kung fu system which I had trained in for 14 years and found the structures, footwork and stances of WT very foreign to my way of moving and thinking but I stuck it out.
> In fact, for whatever reason, I saw WTs potential after that first day of training and stopped training that other system that very day.
> It took a lot of retooling and rewiring of muscle memory but I am here to tell you it was worth it.
> I am now 20 years into WT and my only regret is I didn't find it 20 years sooner.


 
Everyone their own taste right? Thats the beauty of martial arts and thats why there are so many


----------



## Danny T (Jan 15, 2015)

Dylan9d said:


> Everyone their own taste right? Thats the beauty of martial arts and thats why there are so many


The thing about taste is one can become accustomed to it and in time grow to enjoy it.
I also had a tough time coming from a boxing and shotokan background. But having full contact competition experience and some close quarter combat experience I recognized some excellent possibilities. It was over 100 hrs of training before I became somewhat comfortable. Been in WC for almost 40 years now. I also train in Muay Thai and boxing which started several years after being in WC and my Ajarn would often tell me, "Sir, this is Muay Thai not wing chun change your stance. It took several months to adjust to the taste of MT but I did and today I have no problem flowing between wc and mt or blending their flavors. My wc is far better because of the mt training, also my mt is better because of my wc knowledge and skills.

I think it comes down to having a good instructor/teacher and having the desire/passion to learn something new.


----------



## Dylan9d (Jan 15, 2015)

Danny T said:


> The thing about taste is one can become accustomed to it and in time grow to enjoy it.
> I also had a tough time coming from a boxing and shotokan background. But having full contact competition experience and some close quarter combat experience I recognized some excellent possibilities. It was over 100 hrs of training before I became somewhat comfortable. Been in WC for almost 40 years now. I also train in Muay Thai and boxing which started several years after being in WC and my Ajarn would often tell me, "Sir, this is Muay Thai not wing chun change your stance. It took several months to adjust to the taste of MT but I did and today I have no problem flowing between wc and mt or blending their flavors. My wc is far better because of the mt training, also my mt is better because of my wc knowledge and skills.
> 
> I think it comes down to having a good instructor/teacher and having the desire/passion to learn something new.


 
Well the desire or passion to learn something new isn't the problem i think. Something has to be somewhat appealing to you before you start something new.
I have grown custom to the natural stances of the Silat i practice but these stances are also covered in the Eskrima i practiced and also the Kickboxing/Muay Thai i have practised and also the Krav Maga i have practised. And the stances in Wing Chun are far from natural, same goes for the arm movements and footwork.

It doesn't matter though because i can choose what i practise and thats the beauty of it all


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> IRAS. *I*nternally *R*otated *A*dduction Stance
> 
> The EWTO coined this term to describe the Character Two stance (Yee Gee Kim Yuen Ma).
> 
> And you're right, this stance, while very restrictive feeling in the beginning, is very mobile and fluid. In fact, I would say that about WT/WC as a whole. At first you are consumed with structure, stance etc. but the time comes when you break through all of that and it becomes about movement.



Thanks for putting me right on that. He was a foreign fella so I must have misheard.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Not going to win many friends on here with that approach. I am from LT lineage...we spar other lineages, in fact I have a standing invitation to any WC guy of any lineage and any MAist of any style, including boxers and wrestlers, to come and train/spar with me or my group.
> 
> And yes, we spend a lot of time *closing the gap* as well.



What MA does not close the gap I wonder?


----------



## Kwan Sau (Jan 15, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> What MA does not close the gap I wonder?



The martial art of gun fighting!


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> The martial art of gun fighting!



Oh yeah, the one where you stand 1760 yards apart like Quigley lol


----------



## Paul_D (Jan 15, 2015)

Is it effective for what purpose?  Is it effective for cage fighting, probably not as it is not designed to score points in competition.  Is it effective for self defence?  To paraphrase Iain Abernethy, you don't take your Wing Chun out of your pocket and hit someoen with it, it's YOU that is in the fight, not your art.

But Wing Chun is based on effective principals, the same principals found in all effective arts.  If these principals weren't sound then all these arts wouldn't; bother with them, they only bother with them as they are effective.


----------



## geezer (Jan 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> IRAS. *I*nternally *R*otated *A*dduction Stance
> 
> The EWTO coined this term to describe the Character Two stance (Yee Gee Kim Yuen Ma).



Hey Yak, as you probably know, I trained with LT back in the 80s. I had little contact with the EWTO except for brief seminars with some Germans like Emin. Then in the early 90s I had to leave WT for about 15 years. When I came back in 2007, the US organization had become very influenced by the EWTO curriculum.

So anyway, some of the younger technicians I met kept going on about *IRAS, *and were astounded when I didn't know what they were talking about. I remember saying, "Oh, you mean _Character Two Stance_". Then they were the ones looking confused! Personally I prefer the term _"Goat Riding Stance" _(from Yee Gee _*Kim Yeung Ma) *_...mainly because I'm a contrarian goof-ball.

But there is one thing that always bothered me. The EWTO is run by Keith Kernspecht and the Germans, ...so does the acronym_ IRAS _also work in _German_ as well as English? Or do they have yet another term?  
*
*


----------



## yak sao (Jan 15, 2015)

geezer said:


> But there is one thing that always bothered me. The EWTO is run by Keith Kernspecht and the Germans, ...so does the acronym_ IRAS _also work in _German_ as well as English? Or do they have yet another term?



I've always wondered that myself.

As for me, I always liked "_character two_", maybe because it was the first term I learned.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 15, 2015)

I don't know why I never thought of this before, but I went to an English to German translation site and typed in _Internally Rotated Adduction Stance _and it gave me* Intern gedreht / Adduktion Haltung.
*
Any German speakers out there to verify this? My German is pretty much limited to what I've picked up from old war movies and Volkswagen commercials.


----------



## geezer (Jan 16, 2015)

yak sao said:


> My German is pretty much limited to what I've picked up from *old war movies* and Volkswagen commercials.


 
Same here. My ancestors may be German, but_..._


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 17, 2015)

I have a Polish colleuge whom speaks German. If not solved by Monday, I will ask him to look at the above post.


----------



## Pat M (Jan 21, 2015)

Mauthos said:


> In all honesty Wing Chun isn't for me, but having tried it a number of times I can without doubt say that in a practical situation I feel that it would 'work' and be very effective at that.  It came across as a powerful style that works to keep you safe without expending too much of your own energy.
> 
> Part of me wishes it did fit for me, but hey Kenpo will have to do for me.   Hope that helps.



Love the logo you are using as your profile picture. Simple but a great logo, the best kind.


----------



## Pat M (Jan 21, 2015)

JzHernandez77 said:


> Well I have searched the website of where I am planning to learn wing chun and the master who taught the master thier was taught by ip Ching which is ip man's son and also 1 of the 5 grandmasters left and I don't only want to learn wing chun but I want to start with it



I would recommend starting your training and see how you go, as it appears you have limited MA experience anything will be a forward step down the road. Given your Sifu's, Sifu's, Sifu ..  was Ip Ching you may find that his more physical style may have rubbed off a little if not a lot onto students students making it a little less structural although never straying far from it.

Just give it a go, I have trained and studied many MAs including Karate based (long range) and I do not think you are missing out, it is just a different discipline.  Give it a go.


----------



## wingerjim (Jan 22, 2015)

WingChunIan said:


> Wing Chun as a style is more effective than most systems and styles out there, but ultimately it depends on who is teaching and how you train. Mosy of the folks who derride Wing Chun do so because it has never been shown as effective in MMA but miss the point that Wing Chun is not designed for nor trained for the sporting environment. If you are young and athletic or powerfully built then MMA is a good route to go for you or you could simply train muay thai and BJJ, but if you want something that doesn't rely heavilly on strength and athletism then you'll have to look elsewhere and Wing Chun as stated previously is as good as or better than most things available.


 
I agree completely....MMA is a sport with rules. Wing Chun trains a person that the only rules lie in the forms, the human body and the training. Groan kicks, knee kicks, throat chops, etc are all against the rules of MMA, but not so in Wing Chun. This is not to say any MMA fighters are not good on the streets, on the contrary, it just means comparing the streets to the MMA cage is like comparing watermelons to kiwi fruit. What works well in MMA would likely work well on the streets, but so do other Martial Arts that may not be as effective in MMA.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> I agree completely....MMA is a sport with rules. Wing Chun trains a person that the only rules lie in the forms, the human body and the training. Groan kicks, knee kicks, throat chops, etc are all against the rules of MMA, but not so in Wing Chun. This is not to say any MMA fighters are not good on the streets, on the contrary, it just means comparing the streets to the MMA cage is like comparing watermelons to kiwi fruit. What works well in MMA would likely work well on the streets, but so do other Martial Arts that may not be as effective in MMA.


------------------------------------------------------------
"Groan kics"(sic)-they are the best kind probably.(g)


----------



## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "Groan kics"(sic)-they are the best kind probably.(g)


LOL.
At my age, with all the injuries over the years, all my kicks are groan kicks. Just getting up is a groan.


----------



## Vajramusti (Jan 22, 2015)

Danny T said:


> LOL.
> At my age, with all the injuries over the years, all my kicks are groan kicks. Just getting up is a groan.


-----------------------------------
VBG- I can relate to that!!


----------



## Mephisto (Jan 22, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> I agree completely....MMA is a sport with rules. Wing Chun trains a person that the only rules lie in the forms, the human body and the training. Groan kicks, knee kicks, throat chops, etc are all against the rules of MMA, but not so in Wing Chun. This is not to say any MMA fighters are not good on the streets, on the contrary, it just means comparing the streets to the MMA cage is like comparing watermelons to kiwi fruit. What works well in MMA would likely work well on the streets, but so do other Martial Arts that may not be as effective in MMA.


Just as an mma player can avoid fowl blows in the ring yet use them in the street, why can't a wing chun guy use fowls in the street but not use fowl blows in the ring? Wc has punches, and kicks, like most striking based styles, why can't they use them effectively against another striker? Surely you don't hit your fellow practitioners with full force fowl blows in training so you are still abiding by rules be it unwritten or not. Everyone who trains follows rules. 

The problem I have is WC guys writing It off as an effective style in MMA because of "rules". What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?


----------



## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?



Properly trained wc can be utilized in the cage and has been by a few. If a larger group were to train wc specifically for the sport of mma does that mean wc becomes more effective?

I know a lot of well trained muay thai guys and gals who have never tested their skills in ring competition but are very highly skilled muay thai trained people. Are they less effective? I also know many highly skilled wrestlers, BJJ, and submission wrestlers who have never been in a real competition but are very highly skilled. These people have honed their skills in their perspective schools/gyms and are excellent even though they have never 'fought' in a ring/cage. Same can be stated for all of the martial systems.

On the same note; there are many poorly trained muay thai, wrestling, bjj, and whatever. Does that make those arts any less effective. NO!

Something to ponder:
In every mma, boxing, wrestling competition unless it comes to a draw someone loses. In a draw does that mean the particular arts were ineffective? In the win/loss numbers 50% lose; 50% were ineffective add in the ineffectiveness numbers from the draws and more than 50% of all fights are ineffective? What?! In all the mma fights combined better than 50% were ineffective. Then why is there so many using such ineffective systems?


----------



## Mephisto (Jan 22, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Properly trained wc can be utilized in the cage and has been by a few. If a larger group were to train wc specifically for the sport of mma does that mean wc becomes more effective?
> 
> I know a lot of well trained muay thai guys and gals who have never tested their skills in ring competition but are very highly skilled muay thai trained people. Are they less effective? I also know many highly skilled wrestlers, BJJ, and submission wrestlers who have never been in a real competition but are very highly skilled. These people have honed their skills in their perspective schools/gyms and are excellent even though they have never 'fought' in a ring/cage. Same can be stated for all of the martial systems.
> 
> ...


I think you're going a little to far with you 50% ineffective thing. No one said the winner or loser of a fight guarantees effectiveness. All styles have good and bad players, who's debating this? If two guys if the same style fight not much of a conclusion can be drawn about that styles effectiveness, especially if the way they fight looks like how they train. There are different styles off boxing within the art, different bjj "ground games" approaches. A good fighter can adapt to different games and approaches.

Problems arise when there is a significant difference between how someone says they fight and what they're actually able to do. You're example of boxers, Muay thai, and bjjers that don't compete are different than arts where no one spars or competes because the non competing boxer,kick boxer, bjjer, all most likely train under or train around others that do compete. They benefit by training with people that do have competitive experience and draw from that collective knowledge. Imagine an island of bjjers that never grapple each other and never train with grapplers, all they do are isolated moves and flow drills. Do you think they'll be able to hang with those that compete? Or those that don't compete but train and roll with competitors?

My point is a fighting art should have a core of competitors or experienced fighters to guide those that don't compete. Not everyone has to compete, there are probably some who don't compete that could do well if they did. But they learn and benefit from the knowledge of fighters. The higher ranks of a fighting art should consist of some rough and tumble guys who have LOTs of experience fighting with their art against other experienced fighters.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I think you're going a little to far with you 50% ineffective thing. No one said the winner or loser of a fight guarantees effectiveness. All styles have good and bad players, who's debating this? If two guys if the same style fight not much of a conclusion can be drawn about that styles effectiveness, especially if the way they fight looks like how they train. There are different styles off boxing within the art, different bjj "ground games" approaches. A good fighter can adapt to different games and approaches.
> 
> Problems arise when there is a significant difference between how someone says they fight and what they're actually able to do. You're example of boxers, Muay thai, and bjjers that don't compete are different than arts where no one spars or competes because the non competing boxer,kick boxer, bjjer, all most likely train under or train around others that do compete. They benefit by training with people that do have competitive experience and draw from that collective knowledge. Imagine an island of bjjers that never grapple each other and never train with grapplers, all they do are isolated moves and flow drills. Do you think they'll be able to hang with those that compete? Or those that don't compete but train and roll with competitors?
> 
> My point is a fighting art should have a core of competitors or experienced fighters to guide those that don't compete. Not everyone has to compete, there are probably some who don't compete that could do well if they did. But they learn and benefit from the knowledge of fighters. The higher ranks of a fighting art should consist of some rough and tumble guys who have LOTs of experience fighting with their art against other experienced fighters.



It's a bit of me being facetious.
Just making a point of why any 'x' art isn't in mma.
Just because an art is not representing in mma doesn't make that art ineffective.

"A good fighter can adapt..."
Agreed and it doesn't matter from what that fighter trains but it does matter as to 'how' that fighter trains and practices.

"...are different than arts where no one spars..." 
The Wing Chun family I train with spars. A Lot. Against wc people, muay thai people, wrestlers, karate people. I even have some of my wc guys who do in fact compete in mma. What does that prove? 

There are far less arts represented in MMA than are effective martial arts.


----------



## wingerjim (Jan 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Just as an mma player can avoid fowl blows in the ring yet use them in the street, why can't a wing chun guy use fowls in the street but not use fowl blows in the ring? Wc has punches, and kicks, like most striking based styles, why can't they use them effectively against another striker? Surely you don't hit your fellow practitioners with full force fowl blows in training so you are still abiding by rules be it unwritten or not. Everyone who trains follows rules.
> 
> The problem I have is WC guys writing It off as an effective style in MMA because of "rules". What if we do get some solid WC guys that can use it in mma? What then? Does wc suddenly become less effective in the streets because it can work in the ring?


I am not saying WC is an effective style in MMA, but no style is better than another in MMA other than Western Boxing and Wrestling. WC could be effective to a point and that point is usually at the point of a takedown. There is nothing in the traditional WC training to deal with a fight on the ground…the point of WC is to avoid getting there in the first place. The vast majority of MMA fights include western boxing and wrestling with a few kicks included. So, no single martial art has all of the above. I have seen some MMA events were 10-12 minutes of the fight are on the mat and not on their feet, so WC would be totally useless in that kind of fight, but before one hits the floor, WC can be effective as a compliment to Western Boxing skills. What I am saying is that too many people take this hypothetical argument about which martial art is best and apply it to MMA. The winner of any fight is the one best prepared, mentally sharp and has worked the hardest at their skill. Most MMA fighters fit all the above, but so do many martial artists.


----------



## Transk53 (Jan 24, 2015)

wingerjim said:


> I am not saying WC is an effective style in MMA, but no style is better than another in MMA other than Western Boxing and Wrestling.



At the moment yes I would agree. On Wing Chun no, because MMA is fluid relying on many facets to succeed. Wing Chun relies on centuries old structure. Unless there was a fundamental shift in principles, but then it would not be Wing Chun imho.


----------



## yak sao (Jan 24, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> At the moment yes I would agree. On Wing Chun no, because MMA is fluid relying on many facets to succeed. Wing Chun relies on centuries old structure. Unless there was a fundamental shift in principles, but then it would not be Wing Chun imho.




I would have to disagree with you on this. WC's structure is based on the human body and what it the optimal way for the body to deliver force/dissolve force while using as little strength as possible.
I don't think humanity has changed all that much, physiologically speaking in a couple of hundred years.
Also, as I have mentioned on a recent thread, WC, I agree starts out very restrictive feeling in stance, structure, etc. But given time and proper training, a WC fighter will move very fluidly and the structures/stances will be momentary snapshots in time.


----------



## moonhill99 (Mar 14, 2015)

JzHernandez77 said:


> I want to learn and have asked a lot of questions on many other sites about wing chun and they just bash on it every time, that it does not work that its useless I mean I don't know if it is or not can someone that has been using win chun for a long period or anyone that has had experiences where wing chun has helped you tell me about it, seriously this is the last time I ask about it I'm going to make up my mind of learning wing chun or another style, is it useless or not?




From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.

The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.

Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.

It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.


----------



## K-man (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.
> 
> Like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate it is nice but it is useless for today's fighting with boxer or MMA.
> 
> It not the art it is today's fighting is so different.


I don't know how Kung fu would fare but I have to disagree with you comment on Okinawan karate. No Kung fu or karate is designed for competition so it is pretty pointless to compare it to boxing or MMA in sporting bouts. However, Okinawan karate is based on grappling, not the type of karate you see in karate tournaments. If a karateka can enter and clinch, then I would say he would be on more than even terms with a boxer.

Today's fighting is different in the ring but it is not terribly different on the street.


----------



## moonhill99 (Mar 14, 2015)

K-man said:


> I don't know how Kung fu would fare but I have to disagree with you comment on Okinawan karate. No Kung fu or karate is designed for competition so it is pretty pointless to compare it to boxing or MMA in sporting bouts. However, Okinawan karate is based on grappling, not the type of karate you see in karate tournaments. If a karateka can enter and clinch, then I would say he would be on more than even terms with a boxer.
> 
> Today's fighting is different in the ring but it is not terribly different on the street.




I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.

With win chun you are way too close.

Even Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate you are too close and both are really bad at striking and almost no blocking.

I would say Shotokan Karate would do better in MMA or fighting a boxer.






wiki page on it.
Shotokan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## K-man (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.
> 
> With win chun you are way too close.
> 
> ...


So you are talking about fighting under boxing rules?


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think for any Kung fu or karate to do well in MMA or beet up boxer is they have to have good blocking and the right distance not too close but not far.
> 
> With win chun you are way too close.
> 
> ...




You seem to be talking about single styles but you don't go into MMA fighting in a single style, you will use multiple techniques from multiple styles amalgamated to be as effective as possible. Quite often a technique from one style will flow into another technique from another style. It's one reason why people often don't recognise particular styles immediately. Also many styles have similar techniques.

It's really frustrating to be honest that people still talk about single styles being 'successful' in MMA, it totally misses the point of the competition and for goodness sake doesn't the name give it away *MIXED* Martial arts? it doesn't mean just one or two arts done separately, it means quite a few mixed seamlessly into one fighting style!


The arguments that this style or that style would work in MMA is frankly outdated, it's about the fighters style which will , obviously, be a mixture of techniques from a mixture of styles. MMA should be seen as a whole, as itself.


----------



## moonhill99 (Mar 14, 2015)

K-man said:


> So you are talking about fighting under boxing rules?




I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.

Okinawan karate
















Not saying these moves are bad, it is they have no blocking and hand striking to close the gab to allow for these moves with hard getting hit in face. So no MMA or boxer will allow you to get that close.

If you took boxing or other karate style and got really good at it and than took Okinawan karate I think it would work

But with way Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate they lack kicking ,blocking and hand striking to get close enough to allow for those moves.

Shotokan Karate has more kicking over Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate and even the use of higher kicks so I think that would work.


wiki page on it.
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.
> 
> Okinawan karate
> 
> ...




I'm sorry but I can't see what this has to do with the OP? It's title says WC and it's in the WC section and we are getting a lecture on karate not being so good for MMA?


----------



## K-man (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I'm talking about good distance and good striking and blocking.
> 
> Okinawan karate
> 
> ...


To be honest, I don't think you understand Okinawan karate at all, not that this thread is anything to do with karate. So you are saying in MMA when a karate guy has gone in the ring there have been no clinches. Of course you can grab. For a start the boxer has to enter because the Okinawan karateka will wait.

But thanks for the reference. It is pretty much what I thought it was ... seeing I teach it. You stick to what you believe, this is the wrong thread to take it further.


----------



## moonhill99 (Mar 14, 2015)

K-man said:


> To be honest, I don't think you understand Okinawan karate at all, not that this thread is anything to do with karate. So you are saying in MMA when a karate guy has gone in the ring there have been no clinches. Of course you can grab. For a start the boxer has to enter because the Okinawan karateka will wait.
> 
> But thanks for the reference. It is pretty much what I thought it was ... seeing I teach it. You stick to what you believe, this is the wrong thread to take it further.




What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.

A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.

And win chun probably do better than Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate vs a boxer or MMA fighter.

Problem with most kung fu or most karate is the dynamics of fight is different with a boxer or MMA fighter.

With Okinawan karate or win chun you almost at the person face. And Okinawan karate would do worse than win chun because bad blocking and striking.

At least win chun is really fast striking ,better blocking and better hand striking.Only problem you need to be very close.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.
> 
> A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.
> 
> ...





Do you not think that any fighter of any style going into MMA will train MMA? Why persist with the idea that a single stylist will go into the cage against an MMA fighter?

Whether you do well in MMA is NOT the indicator that a style is any good or not.


----------



## Hanzou (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.
> 
> The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.
> 
> ...



There is an argument to be made for that viewpoint, and that argument could be utilized as a reasoning for why you don't see a lot of systems appearing in MMA competitions.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> From what people tell me win chun on its own with do nothing with some one taking boxing.But if you take other martial arts and win chun it works really well.
> 
> The problem with most kung fu or most karate it is useless for today's fighting.
> 
> ...


This is laughable stuff, that you write.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.
> 
> A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.
> 
> ...


Wow, I'm speechless at the lack of knowledge this post illustrates.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> What I'm saying is most kung fu or karate like Okinawan karate or Kenpo Karate or kung fu like win chun don't do well because of the distance.
> 
> A boxer or MMA fighter would not allow you to get that close. If you tried to get that close you get knockout. So you need good blocking and striking to do those moves.
> 
> ...



You do realize that both Kickboxing and MMA since their inception have been saturated, filled to the brim, With karate\TKD guys who strike the same way the did in Karate\TKD right?

Andy Hug, Lyoto Machida, GSP, just to name a few....


----------



## moonhill99 (Mar 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> There is an argument to be made for that viewpoint, and that argument could be utilized as a reasoning for why you don't see a lot of systems appearing in MMA competitions.



No I think the argument was is how kung fu or karate work well in today's world of fighting that is so different.

So many people say take boxing or MMA to do well in today's world.

Sure some one the streets a non skilled person or some one not that good at fighting you will win. But modern day fighting is so different than kung fu or karate.

Sure some kung fu or karate may do better than other kung fu or karate.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> This whole long range/short range argument applies only to sport.


|
I don't get it.  Range is range.  Targeting is targeting.  Mobility is mobility.  Positioning is positioning.  Someone trying to KO you in mMA vs. someone trying to KO you in a bar.  What are the huge differences once the confrontation is set?


yak sao said:


> All said and done, there is only one range...contact range. WC builds a bridge to the attacking limb, whether it's a kick or a punch and moves in to a range that helps to nullify much of what our attacker is trying to accomplish.


|
Yep.  Traditional karate kumite does the same, step by step from day one.  Not as sleek as WC.  The preferred traditional karate way is to let the attacker make the 1st move, then counter.  Let the attacker exposes himself.  WC adopts a similar strategy I think.....



yak sao said:


> An opponent intent on taking you out is going to mow you over. He's not goingt to nancy around and take pot shots at you.


|
Unless you Smash 'em, stopping the assault.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

Steve said:


> If you are young, athletic or powerfully built, you could do well in any martial arts style.


|
Ah, I don't have the view that traditional martial arts success is set by physical prowess.  Certainly it is an advantage against the physically inferior opponent.  This advantage decreases as the traditional martial arts foundation strengthens.  Was the origin of WC, the story, about a Chinese woman developing it to defeat far physically superior males?



Steve said:


> I would presume that WC is the same as any style.  Find the right school and you'll learn WC.  Whether it's good for anything will depend upon the quality of the training and the qualifications of the instructor.


|
Ah, a generality that is palatable to the masses.  But reading of the content @ MT could assist in the proper selection.
|
Still, I train a style of traditional karate.  WC is a far greater TMA style than traditional karate as a group.  That's my opinion.  The Wing Chun martial foundation is so much more sophisticated & powerful in tactical effect.  The key question is how many WC practitioners are really developing the originators WC foundation?  No many I suspect.  I know WC is just too challenging for me.  I outright admit it.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 15, 2015)

yak sao said:


> ...Also, as I have mentioned on a recent thread, WC, I agree starts out very restrictive feeling in stance, structure, etc. But given time and proper training, a WC fighter will move very fluidly and the structures/stances will be momentary snapshots in time.


|
Yes, let's recognize the progressive sophistication in the style.  Not just assume some beginner WC wannabe on YT demonstrates the end game.
|
However what's missed in criticizing WC's more stationary tactics is made very plain in even Shotokan karate.  The ippon kumite approach of smart stand & bang.  Proficient WC takes stand & bang to a whole new level compared to traditional karate.  Wc basically chain-punches the opponent into oblivion.  Add the multiple block /counter / strike again / block sorties that WC throws at the opponent, often simultaneous defense & attack from more than 1 quarter.
|
The "mental clarity" required to propel WC real time is exceedingly high in my view.  Borrowed that from the "State of Mind" T.


----------

