# Ever Notice the Whole Marketing Scheme....



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 13, 2007)

Have you ever noticed the whole marketing scheme behind BJJ rank and apparel.  I mean eveyone and their brother is now selling BJJ Gi's, (Kimono's) Belts, and stickers, etc.  They literally have pressed themselves into the market big time.  I remember buying my early Gracie Gi's for $75 only to have them rip out after two to three months. (now I was rolling four to seven times a week)  Still I went through those like water and then moved onto Double Stiched ones and still they only lasted six to eight months top.  Funny thing is I started buying Judo Gi's cheaper and they were lasting longer.  When I first got a blue belt we just had a sleeve sewn on ourselves.  Now there are belt's with sleeves being sold for *quite a bit of money*.  *BJJ is big business now*, *big business* and truthfully I wonder if this is why people are getting rank faster now as they are the instructor's livelihood.  

Just a thought I had today flashing through one of the latest Martial Arts Magazine...

(Oh and yes I love Brazilian Jiujitsu, just love it)


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 13, 2007)

With the gi situation its pretty clear that they cottoned on to the throw away nature of modern society quite well.  At a not unreasonable price people are willing to buy something new if the old one breaks or tears.  If it were more expensive you would see a lot more repair jobs I reckon.

Once you have decided that with each new rank there will be a noticeable change in apparel then you can easily fall into the situation that BJJ appears to be in.  If you are making more money from gear sales, then you will want to maximise those sales.  One possible result is faster movement through the grades.

This is especially true if you, as an instructor, are paying your own instructor an amount for each of your students.  This works down the line, pyramid scheme style, so it is most efficient to get people to black in order to get them instructing and bringing in the students and cash.  If you do it right you will get to a point where you never have to teach again, just sit back and watch the money flow in.

At my university there was a sort of rival gong fu school that operated in this fashion.  Their enticement was extremely cheap lessons.  About $5 for an hour I think.

Personally, I think that when merchandising starts to become more important than the teaching then there is a significant problem.  It is unlikely that BJJ as a whole is like this, but enough of it appears to be to worry about it.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 13, 2007)

Yup.

That's one thing the "plain white" idea has over the anything goes one.  When they all look the same people buy the better product, not the one that is written across there favorite fighters butt.


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## Marvin (Nov 17, 2007)

Brian, I agree. I have a Kwon judo gi that I have worn for years, still in good shape. The brands and patches are a by-product of the popularity of the sport. Skill by association, if you get my meaning.
I may be giving away my age, but remember Chuck Norris's "kicking jeans"? Everyone had to get those!!! Or Bear brand karate gi's and belts!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 17, 2007)

Marvin said:


> Brian, I agree. I have a Kwon judo gi that I have worn for years, still in good shape. The brands and patches are a by-product of the popularity of the sport. Skill by association, if you get my meaning.
> I may be giving away my age, but remember Chuck Norris's "kicking jeans"? Everyone had to get those!!! Or Bear brand karate gi's and belts!



You know Marvin I have several judo gi's that have withstood awesome punishment and were pretty reasonable on price and they may have not had the patches but they were five times more durble than some of my Brazilian Kimono's! (Gi's)


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## Perpetual White Belt (Nov 24, 2007)

Marvin said:


> I may be giving away my age, but remember Chuck Norris's "kicking jeans"? Everyone had to get those!!! Or Bear brand karate gi's and belts!


 
I remember those and the Rank pants sold by Century.  They tried to bring them back a year or so ago, but they were Billy Jack kicking jeans instead.


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## Jai (Nov 24, 2007)

I think alot of this has to do with the UFC personally. BJJ has become more main stream because of how it has been exposed. Now suddenly everyone is a master at BJJ, and everytime you look in any MA wholesale book or flyer, theres cheep BJJ gear. Personally I think it is sad.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 26, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You know Marvin I have several judo gi's that have withstood awesome punishment and were pretty reasonable on price and they may have not had the patches but they were five times more durble than some of my Brazilian Kimono's! (Gi's)


 
I wish that I could get some kit that is at durable.  CMA gear is appallingly weak.  I guess the people who manufacture it don't think CMA practitioners actually touch each other.


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## Marvin (Jan 8, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You know Marvin I have several judo gi's that have withstood awesome punishment and were pretty reasonable on price and they may have not had the patches but they were five times more durble than some of my Brazilian Kimono's! (Gi's)



But I confess, I have do a "nascar" gi with all kinds of patches on it. including a Newcastle patch and a one like...


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## Andrew Green (Jan 8, 2008)

Marvin said:


> But I confess, I have a "nascar" gi with all kinds of patches on it. including a Newcastle patch and a one like...



I feel like a geek...  I thought it was a Klingon warship


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## Marvin (Jan 8, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I feel like a geek... I thought it was a Klingon warship


 
Apparently, not geeky enough... lol :jedi1:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey Marvin in the past I had all kind's of Brazilian Gi's with patches etc. but frankly I got fed up with constantly wearing them out and having to replace them.  Worse yet was when one $200 plus Double Weave Gi shrunk even though I only air dry. (that really hurt 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

And do not get me started with all the kid's now in BJJ or all the 
one year to Blue Belt courses. (that is just to fast but hey money talks)


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## Wild Bill (Jan 8, 2008)

Let me get this straight. You have a different gi design every time you gain rank. Even mediocre gis that you need get pricey and don't last long. People are gaining rank faster and BJJ is a big business. All they need to do is invent more ranks and a special belts for assistant teachers who are not really qualified but need to stand out. Then they charge higher prices for each test you take. Then they will start making students pay incredibly high prices for mandetory seminars and tournaments for each belt level. The instructors will get younger and younger. Eventually only rich suburbanites will be able to do BJJ and all of the dangerous (effective) techniques will be phased out so little Johnny doesn't get bruised and sensei doesn't get sued. 

Seek out good instructor. It isn't about the style (brand). It is about quality.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 8, 2008)

Wild Bill said:


> Let me get this straight. You have a different gi design every time you gain rank. Even mediocre gis that you need get pricey and don't last long. People are gaining rank faster and BJJ is a big business. All they need to do is invent more ranks and a special belts for assistant teachers who are not really qualified but need to stand out. Then they charge higher prices for each test you take. Then they will start making students pay incredibly high prices for mandetory seminars and tournaments for each belt level. The instructors will get younger and younger. Eventually only rich suburbanites will be able to do BJJ and all of the dangerous (effective) techniques will be phased out so little Johnny doesn't get bruised and sensei doesn't get sued.
> 
> Seek out good instructor. It isn't about the style (brand). It is about quality.


 
Wild Bill you are definately right in that it is all about the quality!


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jan 8, 2008)

Marvin said:


> Apparently, not geeky enough... lol :jedi1:


 
Yeah... :jediduel:that's where I went with it... I need to get out more...


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## Marvin (Jan 9, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Marvin in the past I had all kind's of Brazilian Gi's with patches etc. but frankly I got fed up with constantly wearing them out and having to replace them. Worse yet was when one $200 plus Double Weave Gi shrunk even though I only air dry. (that really hurt
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Wild Bill said:


> Let me get this straight. You have a different gi design every time you gain rank. Even mediocre gis that you need get pricey and don't last long. People are gaining rank faster and BJJ is a big business. All they need to do is invent more ranks and a special belts for assistant teachers who are not really qualified but need to stand out. Then they charge higher prices for each test you take. Then they will start making students pay incredibly high prices for mandetory seminars and tournaments for each belt level. The instructors will get younger and younger. Eventually only rich suburbanites will be able to do BJJ and all of the dangerous (effective) techniques will be phased out so little Johnny doesn't get bruised and sensei doesn't get sued.
> 
> Seek out good instructor. It isn't about the style (brand). It is about quality.


 

I hear ya. Well, we know its mainstream now, cuz BJJ sounds like the rest of the MA world.


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## Marvin (Feb 19, 2008)

Check these out, gimme a frickin' break! http://onthemat.com/xcart/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=23


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 19, 2008)

Marvin said:


> Check these out, gimme a frickin' break! http://onthemat.com/xcart/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=23


 
I see that I need to start up a BJJ uniform shop.  I would make a fortune.


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## joemoplata (Feb 19, 2008)

Actually, you guys are a bit off.  I know a lot of people in the MMA industry, including the owner and operator of NHB Gear so I have some knowledge here that you guys don't.

Most of the gis made for BJJ and Judo are expensive, very expensive, to have made.  The amount of cotton used to make just the collar is as much as it takes to make an entire Karate uniform.  Double weave gis weigh as much as 7 pounds dry.  The markup for these gis isn't usually that much and the profit is negligible.  

In fact, my buddy makes WAY more money selling patches to Karate and TKD schools than he does selling BJJ gis!  Talk about markup!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 20, 2008)

Well I know how much I can buy a Judo/Brazilian Jiujitsu GI wholesale (multiple sources in Brazil and Pakistan) and it is roughly half price.  I also know the wholesale dealers (mostly out of Pakistan as alot are being made there) and it is roughly half price or less again.  You can make a killing selling Brazilian Kimonos.  Not to mention patches, etc.  Still I would agree with you on the mark up for Tae Kwon Do schools as well.


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## joemoplata (Feb 21, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well I know how much I can buy a Judo/Brazilian Jiujitsu GI wholesale (multiple sources in Brazil and Pakistan) and it is roughly half price. I also know the wholesale dealers (mostly out of Pakistan as alot are being made there) and it is roughly half price or less again. You can make a killing selling Brazilian Kimonos. Not to mention patches, etc. Still I would agree with you on the mark up for Tae Kwon Do schools as well.


That is correct, it is about a 100% markup.  This is WAY less than the average markup for clothing.  You may think you can make a killing selling BJJ gis but I can tell you it's just not true.  I know guys at NHB Gear, OTM, USGrappling...they will tell you it's just not that profitable.    You could always give it a shot, lots of people out there think they're going to be the next "Tapout" and are starting up MMA/BJJ gear stores all over the place.  Hell, you could even franchise an OTM shop if you want.  But you won't be making your money on the gis.

I sell coffee, and let me tell you....you would want to punch somone if you knew how much that cup of coffee cost the supplier!


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## Eternal Beginner (Feb 21, 2008)

joemoplata said:


> That is correct, it is about a 100% markup. This is WAY less than the average markup for clothing. You may think you can make a killing selling BJJ gis but I can tell you it's just not true. I know guys at NHB Gear, OTM, USGrappling...they will tell you it's just not that profitable. You could always give it a shot, lots of people out there think they're going to be the next "Tapout" and are starting up MMA/BJJ gear stores all over the place. Hell, you could even franchise an OTM shop if you want. But you won't be making your money on the gis.
> 
> I sell coffee, and let me tell you....you would want to punch somone if you knew how much that cup of coffee cost the supplier!


I have to second joemoplata's comments here.  I also have friends  who are in the gi-selling business locally and it is NOT an easy way to make a buck.  The mark up is only about 100%, which is low by industry standards, and shipping costs and supplier instability  are also huge problems and costs that further eat into your profits.  

As to patches, I make custom patches myself and I can guarantee you I make far more on the local TMA schools than I do with the local BJJ clubs.  We have very few nascar type BJJ players but we have hundreds of TKD students that have dozens of patches on their gi's for everything from "perfect kicks" to "student of the month".

I guess I also have to wonder why it is a bad thing to be able to make money off of something?  If someone offers a quality product why wouldn't you want to pay for it?  It isn't like there is anyone holding a gun to your head making you buy a $300 Lucky gi or a $250 Rickson Gracie special.  Lots of guys train in $40 judo gi's at our club and compete in them as well.  If you want a Mercedes and can afford a Mercedes why shouldn't you have a Mercedes?  Same with gi's, if you like it and can afford it why should anyone else concern themselves with it?  If there wasn't a demand no one would be making these outrageously priced gi's.  

This isn't purely a "BJJ Marketing Scheme" that is not encountered in TMA's as well.  I am also a member of a traditional karate club and the guys there are all in their special, _expensive_ heavyweight gi's and they all have the fancy sai with the expensive carrying cases.  Is this a marketing ploy?  Or is it a hobby that these guys enjoy and want to spend some of their disposable income on?  If my sensei, or coach, can make a little extra cash off supplying people with the stuff they want to buy _as long as it isn'y mandatory and they have choice,_ then I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it or see it as some sort of plot.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 21, 2008)

My point is that BJJ has become big business now. (*really big*)  It has gone from being a small growing martial sytem to worldwide big business in a rush and with that comes negatives.  I love BJJ but I would be absolutely remiss if I did not point out similarities and negatives I see that resemble the worst in TMA.  The poor quality of some BJJ Gi's is just one thing that I have noticed.  You are absolutely right in that some $40 to $70 Gi's are great and last longer than some of the $200 to $250 ones.  Bottom line the times are a changing.

I have no problem with someone making money off of quality products. (no problem at all) 

Lately I have seen some very poor quality blue belts, some very poor quality Gi's and some even worse poor quality mail order programs. :erg: (*yikes on the mail order*)

Times have changed as the dollar is rolling in.

Does that make me like BJJ any less.  *The system, no way!*  The marketing of some individuals goods, services, etc.  Yes!

As for becoming a supplier!  *No way to many headaches*.  I run one supply business on rattan sticks and that is enough.


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## joemoplata (Feb 21, 2008)

I will agree with you that BJJ is now big business.  I am lucky enough that I have been involved for a long time so I have been able to watch that happen and now am trying to carve out a little piece myself by teaching and running schools.  

But that doesn't mean that I don't want to choke out every bald guy with tattoos walking in the mall with a Tapout or Affliction shirt on!  And don't even get me STARTED on the "Never Back Down" movie!  CRAP!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 21, 2008)

joemoplata said:


> I will agree with you that BJJ is now big business. I am lucky enough that I have been involved for a long time so I have been able to watch that happen and now am trying to carve out a little piece myself by teaching and running schools.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that I don't want to choke out every bald guy with tattoos walking in the mall with a Tapout or Affliction shirt on! And don't even get me STARTED on the "Never Back Down" movie! CRAP!!!


 
Yes I imagine we are going to see some horrible movies coming up.


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 29, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Have you ever noticed the whole marketing scheme behind BJJ rank and apparel.  I mean eveyone and their brother is now selling BJJ Gi's, (Kimono's) Belts, and stickers, etc.  They literally have pressed themselves into the market big time.  I remember buying my early Gracie Gi's for $75 only to have them rip out after two to three months. (now I was rolling four to seven times a week)  Still I went through those like water and then moved onto Double Stiched ones and still they only lasted six to eight months top.  Funny thing is I started buying Judo Gi's cheaper and they were lasting longer.  When I first got a blue belt we just had a sleeve sewn on ourselves.  Now there are belt's with sleeves being sold for *quite a bit of money*.  *BJJ is big business now*, *big business* and truthfully I wonder if this is why people are getting rank faster now as they are the instructor's livelihood.
> 
> Just a thought I had today flashing through one of the latest Martial Arts Magazine...
> 
> (Oh and yes I love Brazilian Jiujitsu, just love it)



My gi is also a Judo Gi. 

Bjj is a big business.. but if you are sick of Rank being handed out faster, check out Straight Blast Gym for your BJJ organization.  Rank is earned slowly there - even their blue belts are TOUGH.

Seriously, Brian, if you like BJJ you should really make one of their twice yearly camps.

http://www.straightblastgym.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 1, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> My gi is also a Judo Gi.
> 
> Bjj is a big business.. but if you are sick of Rank being handed out faster, check out Straight Blast Gym for your BJJ organization. Rank is earned slowly there - even their blue belts are TOUGH.
> 
> ...


 
I have trained with some straight blast guy's and they have alot to offer. As for myself I bring people in all the time and still train regularly and teach as well.  Rank is something I have no interest in as I've been doing this a long time!  Still I always enjoy working out with someone new! 

Good quality Judo GI's seem to last and last.


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2008)

Martail Art period is big business, last year alone the industry made over 170 Billion dollars up 300% from the year before. And those are figure that are made public who knows how much is done behind and under the table.


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## joemoplata (Mar 3, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> My gi is also a Judo Gi.
> 
> Bjj is a big business.. but if you are sick of Rank being handed out faster, check out Straight Blast Gym for your BJJ organization. Rank is earned slowly there - even their blue belts are TOUGH.
> 
> ...


 
Who do you think are some of the examples of people handing out belts?


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## Darth F.Takeda (Mar 28, 2008)

Marvin said:


> But I confess, I have do a "nascar" gi with all kinds of patches on it. including a Newcastle patch and a one like...


 I want that patch!


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## Darth F.Takeda (Mar 28, 2008)

I am getting sick of the BJJ Gis showing up in our class to be honest.

I know it's a tradition to have graphics and patches on your Gi in Brazil and in BJJ, I get it and I have no dog in the hunt, it's not the Jujutsu I train and teach.

But in Jujutsu there is a modern tradition of Gi's with no patches or just a school patch, and I like that better. I dont want to be a walking add for a sporting goods co. BJJ Gi's with their Logos on the sleeves and back and Adidis and Swain Gi's get my goat for the same reason, you have the logo all over the shoulders and some on the chest.

 I like when a Gi maker puts a little tag at the bootom of the Gi, that's all that's needed.

 Buy a Ronin Gi, under $50 for white and $50 for black, these have served me well over the last 11 years.

 I do like HSU Judo Gi's as well.

As a joke I was thinking about patching up an old Gi with the old STP, Penzoil, Peskee racing patches, maybe a big Harley Davidson back patch, Rolling Stones lips on the knees and all Ha Ha Ha!


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## allenjp (Apr 28, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Marvin in the past I had all kind's of Brazilian Gi's with patches etc. but frankly I got fed up with constantly wearing them out and having to replace them. Worse yet was when one $200 plus Double Weave Gi shrunk even though I only air dry. (that really hurt
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you think there is something wrong with kids taking BJJ? My son has been taking it for months now and he IS learning the effective techniques such as different chokes and joint locks (straight armbar, americana, kimura) I really like what he is learning as far as position and leverage, and the great takedowns. As for him hurting other kids with what he learns, he does not have to worry about his BJJ instructor because he will have to deal with me if he does something stupid like that. He knows very well that he is not to use these techniques unless he has to.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 28, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Do you think there is something wrong with kids taking BJJ? My son has been taking it for months now and he IS learning the effective techniques such as different chokes and joint locks (straight armbar, americana, kimura) I really like what he is learning as far as position and leverage, and the great takedowns. As for him hurting other kids with what he learns, he does not have to worry about his BJJ instructor because he will have to deal with me if he does something stupid like that. He knows very well that he is not to use these techniques unless he has to.


 
I have absolutely no problem with kid's learning Brazilian Jiujitsu but things have changed and it is becoming easier for someone to climb rank even if skill is not always commensorate that is what I have observed recently.  Even with what I would consider some poor gi's out there, expensive bjj belts,more marketing to kid's and faster promotions BJJ is still ahead of the game as far as overall quality.  However, that is changing some.


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## allenjp (Apr 28, 2008)

I see what your're saying, I'm new in BJJ and was really unaware I could purchase a GI other than the one offered from the school. It cost me $145, and it seems to be really thick. It's the "official Gracie Barra GI" not sure what brand it is but there is a big patch on the back that says "equipe". Anyway I'll be interested to see how long it lasts...


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## Bodhisattva (May 1, 2008)

Jai said:


> I think alot of this has to do with the UFC personally. BJJ has become more main stream because of how it has been exposed. Now suddenly everyone is a master at BJJ, and everytime you look in any MA wholesale book or flyer, theres cheep BJJ gear. Personally I think it is sad.


 
Cheap gear is always sad.

I hate the crap boxing gloves available now at most sporting goods store - century and everlast crap.


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## Bodhisattva (May 1, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I have absolutely no problem with kid's learning Brazilian Jiujitsu but things have changed and it is becoming easier for someone to climb rank even if skill is not always commensorate that is what I have observed recently. Even with what I would consider some poor gi's out there, expensive bjj belts,more marketing to kid's and faster promotions BJJ is still ahead of the game as far as overall quality. However, that is changing some.


 
Straight Blast Gym isn't known for faster promotions though!


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## Bodhisattva (May 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Do you think there is something wrong with kids taking BJJ? My son has been taking it for months now and he IS learning the effective techniques such as different chokes and joint locks (straight armbar, americana, kimura) I really like what he is learning as far as position and leverage, and the great takedowns. As for him hurting other kids with what he learns, he does not have to worry about his BJJ instructor because he will have to deal with me if he does something stupid like that. He knows very well that he is not to use these techniques unless he has to.


 
I think both BJJ and MMA are AWESOME for kids!  They learn fast and it turns them into Leaders - it removes the "victim mentality" from them before they even have a chance to fully form one.

Kudos for getting your kid into the "real stuff."  He'll thank you for it someday, I'm certain.


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## allenjp (May 1, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement,

I had him in Karate for two years but I didn't like him learning all the katas, at his age i just didn't think they'd do him any good. Plus the instructor seemed bent on promoting him even if he didn't know his stuff so he could keep charging me the $50 belt promotion fee.


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## bootcampbj (Jun 17, 2008)

I was curious about peoples thoughts surrounding the BJJ gi´s for competition?

I´ve been using my old judo gi i´ve had for years and it´s holding up fine for training, but it is very easy to grab onto with long loose sleeves and a  soft not to thick collar.  As apposed to the BJJ gi´s I´m looking at buying like a gameness or sirius with thicker collars and tapered sleeves.

I do agree that there are a lot of dodgy gear vendors out there jumping on the bjj/mma train and promoting the hell our of their crap,  but aren´t there also genuine quality suppliers also who put back into the sport and are providing the top quality they can for those of us who roll?

I´ve got no issues rolling in old judo gi´s for training.  But I also don´t  see much wrong with spending 120$ on a good quality gi that will show up well at tournaments and last for a year of solid training if I use it for that as well.

Just some thoughts.  I´d like to hear yours.

-BJ


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## D Dempsey (Jun 17, 2008)

If you want a Gi that will last forever you should look at the Howards.  They don't have any patches on them and they are under $100.  On the downside they do get hot.


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