# Concerned about lack of sparring in class, will this limit my effectiveness?



## John (Feb 20, 2006)

Greetings,

Just started taking Shaolin Kempo classes a couple of months ago.  I have never done any martial arts before and I am really enjoying it.  Only wish I had started earlier in my life, but I guess we all may feel that way.

Anyway as I was saying I am really enjoying the class but I have concerns because there is no sparring except for one one night a week, not during the actual class.  I do not think sparring is when a opponet slowing makes a punch, and I block and then do a mock punch etc.  Should I not have protective gear on and the scenario be as true to life as possible?

Almost everyone in my class has been with this instructor a long time, and all are black belts so he must be good at what he does.  I know I am starting to ramble, but could anyone give me some experince on this issue?  Do people feel competent if they have trained this way?

Thanks


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## Flatlander (Feb 20, 2006)

Mod Note:

Thread moved to Beginner's Corner.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-


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## Flatlander (Feb 20, 2006)

Hi John, welcome to Martial Talk.

My take on this is that different instructors have different ways of conducting their training.  With that in mind, I wouldn't be too concerned that yours is leading you astray.  There's a saying, "perfect practice makes perfect."  

The way I see it, there isn't much value (in terms of learning how to move in accordance with the principles of your chosen art) in getting down and dirty without having some understanding of form.  Beyond that, you'll find, with practice, that seeing and feeling things in slow motion will provide you with a couple of benefits.  It allows you to consciously feel and understand the dynamics of moving with another body.  Also, you'll feel much more comfortable, over time, in dealing with a more aggressive opponent.  

Another consideration is the personal safety of the students.  To jump right in and start hammering in the spar can put people's health at risk.  Presumably, this isn't in anybody's best interest.  The speed and intensity should pick up with the student's ability to control what their doing.

In summary, though you're on the right track with regards to wanting to inject a little reality into your spar, your instructor should have the experience to bring you along at a level that they feel will best benefit you.  

Great question!  Thanks for participating. :asian:


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## Ping898 (Feb 20, 2006)

One of the most important things I think you need when training is to build up your muscle memory.  They best way to do this with learning to do things right is to slow them down and do them especially when you are very new to the arts as you are.  Like Flatlander quoted "practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect".  
Another saying "is the most dangerous person to spar isn't a black belt it is a white or (yellow) belt" (depending on when your school starts the sparring).  That is cause at the lower belts tend to lack the control to put a strike or defensive move exactly where you want it with consistancy and with the corrrect amount of power.  Best way to counter act this is also to slow down and to have protective gear.  
Sounds to me too that you are on the right track and your best bet is to just be patient and follow the path your instructor has set out for you for at least the time being.
You know if you still have these concerns 9 to 12 months from now it might be worth to sitting down and talking with your instructor and letting him know your concerns...he may be able to alleviate them.


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## beau_safken (Feb 21, 2006)

Depending on the art you may never spar full on for the real meal deal.  Im Silat you would do monkey line a hell of a lot.  The whole class gets in a line and throws whatever they want at you and you have to defend against it.  Also the caviat is you cant repeat any technique twice no matter how long the line is or rounds you have to endure.  That is a lot more lets say "intellectually stimulating" than dropping the pads on and making points.  

Not discounting the practice of free sparring but its not going to make you any more or less able to deal with someone in the real world.  I learned a very good lesson about those with no martial arts training at all...They can't be practiced for or against.  Completely random in everyway and the more you try to catagorize their attack, the more you get hit.  Muscle memory as stated above is the essence of a martial artist.  Patience and time will reward your skills my friend.  Damn that was almost a yoda moment.....


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## silatman (Feb 21, 2006)

Mate I dont  know your class or your instructor but it did strike me as strange that everyone in your class is a blackbelt.
Maybe you should ask questions of the other students as to the way the syllabus is structured.
Best of luck.


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## Flatlander (Feb 21, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Not discounting the practice of free sparring but its not going to make you any more or less able to deal with someone in the real world.


I disagree with this as an absolute.  I would say that there needs to be a certain level of skill there before you'll begin really learning anything from a free spar.  But, it will provide one with both the experience of combat, as well as a channel through which to test one's skills, and see what needs to be adjusted to suit the different dynamic.


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## Grenadier (Feb 21, 2006)

Patience, friend.

Many martial arts schools do not let their students engage in free sparring until they've reached a certain level of experience, and this level can vary significantly from one school to another.  

Their belief is that a student who has a well-developed set of fundamentals is going to be able to free spar just fine, and that there's a much lesser chance of bad things happening along the way.  

Other schools might prefer to throw people into the mix right away.  

Which way works better?  Both methods can produce good fighters with proper guidance, but it's no secret that the first way is going to be easier for the students to follow, since they can focus on the simpler stuff first.


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## John (Feb 21, 2006)

Thanks for the replys.  It makes me feel better about where this is heading.  Muscle memory would seem to me to be a good thing.  I suppose it would be best to start sparring when when I know how to protect myself and know sufficent strikes.  As mentioned before there is a one day a week where we can spar.

In regards to me being in a class with mostly black belts.  The school is smaller and I am taking the adult classes.  It just so happens that these are the only times I can go.  It is not an advanced class or anything and all are helpful.

Just wondering.  In the past did more schools spar but slowed down or stopped due to law suits?

Thanks again.


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## ChineseKempoJerry (Feb 21, 2006)

In our day and age we cannot just go out there and get into actual combat for training - otherwise we would have a hard time going to work the next day. Sounds like your instructor has developed a certain method to teaching you about combat. Eventually it will all make sense - like a light bulb going off in your head. Just remember you will have many of these moments in your training.

The last thing I want to leave you with is that we cannot really duplicate a combat situation, all we can do is provide tools to help you be better prepared for when the situation arises.

Sparring is just that - a tool. To help you work on techniques, distancing, and give you a feel of how dynamic a fighting situation can be. Is sparring fighting? - NO, but it can help with some of the many variables involved in combat.

Does combat have truth and laws? - YES, your instructor will help you learn those. Good luck in your journey.

Best Regards,

Sifu Jerry


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 8, 2006)

i wouldn't be so very concerned.

sparring doesn't teach much about street effectiveness.  in fact, it teaches several bad habits.  pulling your punches.  not committing to a strike.  not grabbing opponents when you have a chance.  striking with a closed fist.  not going for the eyes, throat, knees and instep.

sparring *does* teach timing, rythm and movement; but these things can be learned in other drills.

one thing sparring teaches that you can't get anywhere else is the management of fear.  to spar means getting up in front of somebody knowing two things.  1) the person in front of you is a trained martial artist and 2) he/she is about to start trying to hit you.  we've got millions of years of evolution telling us to run away, yet we are expected to step forward.  for children especially, but for everybody, this is a valuable lesson for personal development and combat effectiveness.

just my 1 1/2 cents canadian.


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## bMunky (Mar 8, 2006)

Well, it all depends on your style and teacher. Like in my Judo class, it's pretty safe to spar in judo, we do 4 rounds every class and we're allowed to take em to the floor and choke. In Jujitsu though, we spar very rarely. We'll do the basic judo randori but people are nuts in are class and peopl esometimes get hurt, sensei has learned to just let us do newaza randori as we seem to be a whole lot more safer doing that. In jujitsu we spar  maybe once every two weeks, I have no problem with that as jujitsu is a very unsafe sport to randori in if you arent patient and aware of whats going on and there is no one in our class above yellow belt so thats also another big reason why the lack of sparring. But are Judo class is run like an old style judo class the way wall jay was taught and the way he taught our sensei so the randori is all out 4 rounds just like a judo tournament but your also not allowed to spar the first semester of class which is half a school year and after that first semester you can spar and compete.


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## cfr (Mar 26, 2006)

IMO, yes it would limit your effectiveness if there were a real lack of it. But I agree with others in that sparring from day 1 with no experience may be a bit hasty... but I dont see once a week as a lack of sparring by any means once youve learned a few things. 

I was at a JKD/ Muay Thai/ FMA school for 14 months and never sparred because the instructor made people wait two and a half years to spar. Then I took about 8 months off for an injury(during this time I did shadow boxing), then I moved and started a new JKD school and did light sparring on night 2. What I learned is that drills with no sparring (now keep in mind this is no sparring, not once a week which IMO is just fine) is a dreamland. That I will never again train anywhere that doesnt spar.


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## stickarts (Mar 28, 2006)

Practicing sparring helped me progress by leaps and bounds and in my view it should be a part of your training if you want to be most effective.
It would be a good idea to have a one on one discussion with your instructor to get his/her view on sparring, when and how much you will be expected to do, it's importance, etc...
We only have one regular sparring class per week but students can get together at other times to spar if they want. 
Yes, as a school owner, I can say that safety and legalities are important, however, being sure that everyone is wearing proper gear, and running the ring and enforcing the rules goes a long way in preventing problems. Waivers are also signed but that really offers little protection in my State.
Sparring can be lots of fun! Enjoy the process of learning!


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