# Anti-takedown techniques using internal energy



## vic (May 15, 2022)

Can the methods shown below really work outside of sparring, in a competitive fight or self-defense situation?


----------



## Flying Crane (May 15, 2022)

I don’t know.  What are your thoughts?


----------



## drop bear (May 15, 2022)

Do they contain the energies of overhook, crossfire, sprawl?

There was a bunch of tai chi fantasy videos put out. I think the 2nd one is one of those.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 15, 2022)

vic said:


> Can the methods shown below really work outside of sparring, in a competitive fight or self-defense situation?


It depennds on how your opponent may set up his takedown. If your opponent uses "arm drag" to drag you around in circle, none of your "internal" energy will work.


----------



## vic (May 16, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know.  What are your thoughts?


I'm studying baguazhang with a move like the bear palm. I suppose with enough skill, redirecting an opponent's energy in a downward direction is possible. But I haven't had a chance to test against a live opponent because of the pandemic.


----------



## drop bear (May 16, 2022)

vic said:


> I'm studying baguazhang with a move like the bear palm. I suppose with enough skill, redirecting an opponent's energy in a downward direction is possible. But I haven't had a chance to test against a live opponent because of the pandemic.



The bear palm relies on a flawed take down


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

May be we need to define what "internal energy" is. Is it superior than "external energy"? How?


----------



## Steve (May 16, 2022)

Watched the first video.  I think the positive thing I can say about it is that underhooks are definitely useful.  

Here's what I would say is a more technically sound demonstration of the same concepts from the first video:






It's the same idea, but he's defending against a properly executed takedown, and he's doing it in a way that doesn't rely on magic. 

First video below, the guy is standing tall and his hands are at his side.  The other guy is hunched over, legs straight, no elevation change at all, and is charging in head first.  He's also got his arms flung out to the side inviting the double underhooks.






In the picture below (from the video in this post), the person is protecting himself, and the bad guy is dropping his elevation, keeping his head back and executing a technically sound double leg.  He's also not flinging his arms out to the side. 





Because the guy in the first video was so high, it is very easy to get the underhooks without even bending your knees.  





But in this case, the guy gets the underhooks, but is also dropping his center of gravity by bending his knees and shooting his hips back.  He's not quite sprawling at this point, but could easily do that if needed from this position.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be we need to define what "internal energy" is. Is it superior than "external energy"? How?


In this context, internal = force at close range, not some extended strike.  The dan tian/core and the legs are doing most of the work, arms are there for control.

I think both videos showcase some value, the first guy appears pretty well trained.  It's hard for people to put together a decent demo video, even when they're good at whatever it is.  I'm pretty sure his child is part of the film crew, if I heard the start correctly.

The "bear" is basically the same concept as Zhan Zhuang and the energies in Tai Chi.  It's hard to miss that, it's also found in other arts.  In Hung Ga Kuen it's the Controlling Bridge.





The second video looked like any typical Judo randori session to me, unless I'm missing something.  If it's staged, it's a good staging.  If Tai Chi dudes want to go pull with judoka, god bless em.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In this context, internal = force at close range, not some extended strike.


People try to make a big deal about "internal energy" or external energy. To counter a takedown, it depends on who controls who's arm/arms. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external.

Before you apply your takedown, you have to control your opponent's arm/arms first. If you can do that, your opponent's "internal enetgy" will have no effect on you.

In the following 2 clips, they control rheir opponent's arm by "reverse arm drag".

The couter should be "how to deal with your opponent's arm drag?" and not "how to use your internal energy?"

Is there "internal" way to deal with arm drag and external way to deal with arm drag? I don't think so.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> People try to make a big deal about "internal energy" or external energy. It depends on who controls who's arm/arms. It has nothing to do with "internal" or external.
> 
> Before you apply your takedown, you have to control your opponent's arm/arms first. If you can do that, your opponent's "internal enetgy" will have no effect on you.
> 
> ...


There is an external and internal way.  It's expressed in different arts in a complementary teaching modality.

Tai Chi describes them in terms of things like tree stances, sinking the qi, Bagua does it a little differently in terms of directional qi, but basically similar, and that distinguishes them external techniques that aren't in those arts, but are in, for example, Hung Ga or Jow Ga Kuen (where is Jow Ga Wolf anyway?).

In a Taijiquan and Bagua context, everything is internal, and internal in this context is the power the central torso (the lowest dan tian), with upper body and arm forming a strong frame (i.e. not collapsing).  But all throws are done with legs and waist power driving the throw.

In Hung Ga Kuen, there are "external" arm drags that are very long-range with a wide range of motion, like Monkey Steals Peach below.  They do not utilize close range power at all, but gravity, similar to sacrifice pulls.  This might look "internal" but it's not classified that way in Hung Kuen.  This is an arm breaking arm drag, there's a big step involved in executing it, so it requires a lot of room to use (this picture below is the end result of the whole technique, so you can't see the step, but it starts in the opposite direction with an arm drag that ends in a lock/break).









Visibly, there's a big difference.  The internal arts look more like wrestling, the external arts more like boxing, even though most schools really do both.  The end result is basically the same, but they are definitely taught differently in different schools.  Both will tell you to tuck your pelvis in just the same.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is an external and internal way.  It's expressed in different arts in a complementary teaching modality.


This is why the anti-takedown can be a good example to check whether "internal" or external can make any difference here.

When your opponent drags your arm and runs behind you, whether your resist or yield, both counters are wrong.

The proper counter for arm drag is to move in through a particular angle  which has nothing to do with "internal" or external.

The anti-takedown is like to find the right key to open the right lock. There exist no master key that can open all locks.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why the anti-takedown can be a good example to check whether "internal" or external can make any difference here.
> 
> When your opponent drags your arm and runs behind you, whether your resist or yield, both counters are wrong.
> 
> ...


Shuai Jiao is an art that kind of synthesizes both internal and external concepts into a continuum the way you're describing, to look at things from both perspectives combined.  Shuai Jiao grappling techniques can be found in a ton of CMA styles (being some of the oldest of all techniques), whether or not they actually train san da with them (plenty do).  And they look Judo-like, because physics are physics.

The BJJ dudes also generally seem to understand the catch concept of takedown defense when doing things like sprawling, so that's a good art to observe if you really want to see what works and what doesn't.  From my perspective BJJ would have fallen into the internal schools, since they emphasize using the core of the body and legs to drive the opponent around (especially on the ground), with the arms utilized for control as much as possible rather than as hammers.  There's that whole "use technique, not strength" argument again, but I think the BJJ peeps really have mastered that whole problem.  

There was a long time where people seemed to dismiss the term "anti-takedown" as if it wasn't a thing.  It's definitely a thing, wrestling has taught it for thousands of years.  I think it had something to do with certain TMA claiming that they'd stuff takedowns with things like 12-6 elbows and spinning out of the way.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Some people may think that 

borrow force = use "internal" energy.

The term "resisted opponent" has a negative meaning today. It encourages to use "force against force". When your opponent pushes you, if you also push back. Even if your push may overcome your opponent's push. Your method is still wrong. When your opponent pushes you, you should borrow his force and pull him instead.

Some "internal" people think they are the only people who know how to borrow force. In wrestling, borrow force is just basic lesson 101.


----------



## Steve (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Shuai Jiao is an art that kind of synthesizes both internal and external concepts into a continuum the way you're describing, to look at things from both perspectives combined.  Shuai Jiao grappling techniques can be found in a ton of CMA styles (being some of the oldest of all techniques), whether or not they actually train san da with them (plenty do).  And they look Judo-like, because physics are physics.
> 
> The BJJ dudes also generally seem to understand the catch concept of takedown defense when doing things like sprawling, so that's a good art to observe if you really want to see what works and what doesn't.  From my perspective BJJ would have fallen into the internal schools, since they emphasize using the core of the body and legs to drive the opponent around (especially on the ground), with the arms utilized for control as much as possible rather than as hammers.  There's that whole "use technique, not strength" argument again, but I think the BJJ peeps really have mastered that whole problem.



Be careful or you'll be pigeonholed as a BJJ fan boy.  



Oily Dragon said:


> There was a long time where people seemed to dismiss the term "anti-takedown" as if it wasn't a thing.  It's definitely a thing, wrestling has taught it for thousands of years.  I think it had something to do with certain TMA claiming that they'd stuff takedowns with things like 12-6 elbows and spinning out of the way.


It's funny how connotation can be so important in English.  Anti-takedown, like anti-grappling, was a sort of shorthand for styles that were trying to shoehorn a response to BJJ and other grappling styles.  When folks use these terms, it's a bit of a red flag... sort of a "oh, here we go again" thing.  

Versus takedown defense, which is what most people say.  

Even though, to an outside person, the phrases "anti-takedown" and "takedown defense" seem synonymous, they connote very different things.  So, all that to say, I think wrestlers (and other grapplers) teach takedown defense, not anti-takedowns.

It's kind of like when people type jiu jitsu or jujutsu...  whether intentional or not, the two words suggest very different things.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

A: Should I train iron palm, or should I train iron vest?
B: If you train iron palm, you will beat up people for the rest of your life. If you train iron vest, people will beat you up for the rest of your life.

A: Should I train takedown, or should I train anti-takedown?
B: If you train takedown, you will take people down for the rest of your life. If you train anti-takedown, people will try to take you down for the rest of your life.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The BJJ dudes also generally seem to understand the catch concept of takedown defense when doing things like sprawling, so that's a good art to observe if you really want to see what works and what doesn't. From my perspective BJJ would have fallen into the internal schools, since they emphasize using the core of the body and legs to drive the opponent around (especially on the ground), with the arms utilized for control as much as possible rather than as hammers. There's that whole "use technique, not strength" argument again, but I think the BJJ peeps really have mastered that whole problem.


Speaking as a (primarily but not exclusively) BJJ guy, when I see well done "internal power" it just looks like regular good technique to me. My only objection is when certain instructors overhype it by demonstrating with demo dummies who feed them attacks with sloppy technique and crappy structure and then over-cooperate with the technique so that it ends up looking like the teacher can reliably and effortlessly tie them into knots or throw them across the room with minimal movement.

I have that issue occasionally with my own students when I'm demoing a technique for the class. Obviously the demo partner should allow me to show the movement without fighting, but sometimes they end up over-cooperating and I have to tell them not to take a dive for me or twist themselves into a knot trying to make me look good. 

Besides the importance of not giving the instructor a swelled head, this is also important in order to set realistic expectations for a technique. For example last week I was showing a counter to the Muay Thai style double-collar tie. For some reason my demo partner kept trying to hang on to the position even once I had totally disrupted his structure and so (just for fun) I showed how that gave me the opportunity to take his back and take him down with a choke. I emphasized that this was an unlikely best-case scenario and that realistically the opponent would probably let go once their position was compromised and reset their position or pummel for a better grip. But when I set the class to drilling, everybody was focusing on trying to run around to their opponent's back for the cool looking finish rather than practice the more likely outcome. So I had to tell them to stop feeding their training partners the unlikely energy and just reset once their grip was broken.


Oily Dragon said:


> The second video looked like any typical Judo randori session to me, unless I'm missing something. If it's staged, it's a good staging. If Tai Chi dudes want to go pull with judoka, god bless em.


I don't have any insider knowledge on that event, but I have my suspicions that there was some staging to make the Tai Chi instructor look good. The reason is that the judoka didn't utilize any of the setups (kuzushi, grip fighting, combination attacks) that I would expect him to use in a serious judo match. He just tried to force the throws directly from the clinch without setup, which isn't going to work well against someone with a really good base.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> the judoka didn't utilize any of the setups (kuzushi, grip fighting, combination attacks) that I would expect him to use in a serious judo match.


I feel the same way about that video too. Onetime in the park I played with a Taiji guy. I dragged his arm around, his body just responded the same way as any external MA guy would do.

IMO, the term "internal energy" has vey little meaning in wrestling.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: Should I train iron palm, or should I train iron vest?
> B: If you train iron palm, you will beat up people for the rest of your life. If you train iron vest, people will beat you up for the rest of your life.
> 
> A: Should I train takedown, or should I train anti-takedown?
> B: If you train takedown, you will take people down for the rest of your life. If you train anti-takedown, people will try to take you down for the rest of your life.


That makes no sense at all. Why would anyone train any of this in isolation? When I train strikes, I also train counters. When I train grappling, I also train counters. I mean, it sounds very Wise Old Man on a Mysterious Mountain and all, but it's actually a silly proposition.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> Watched the first video.  I think the positive thing I can say about it is that underhooks are definitely useful.
> 
> Here's what I would say is a more technically sound demonstration of the same concepts from the first video:
> 
> ...


I agree with most of your analysis, except the very first issue you mention. The hands being low at the beginning.

I think that's useful to practice sometimes-if someone comes and tackles you when you're not already in guard, how quickly can you move your hand to position. Similar to how people practice weapon draws, it's worth trying from different positions.

That said, in the video itself the actual issue with his hands is his uke. His uke does the 'takedown' in a way that "hands at side" is the perfect position. It almost looks like he's trying to wrap his elbows. That's the problem there, not the demo-er having his hands down.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> Be careful or you'll be pigeonholed as a BJJ fan boy.


I'll take it.  The BJJ people I've cross trained with are very good at stuff found in Tiger, southern Dragon kung fu.  

Even the white belts are a lot better at it than many "sifus", for no other reason than they actually trained against resistance recently.

My own Tai Chi sifu makes sure to throw me around and tell me to resist him.  He knows, I know the good stuff from the bad, because he's Tai Chi master and I'm a good student.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't have any insider knowledge on that event, but I have my suspicions that there was some staging to make the Tai Chi instructor look good. The reason is that the judoka didn't utilize any of the setups (kuzushi, grip fighting, combination attacks) that I would expect him to use in a serious judo match. He just tried to force the throws directly from the clinch without setup, which isn't going to work well against someone with a really good base.


This is the kind of problem that Xu Xiadong went to the mattresses to highlight (the long tradition of making Tai Chi instructors "look good").

The number of Tai Chi masters who can actually throw down is much smaller than we've been led to believe.  And yet, if you've trained TCC with a good teacher, there's no shortage of resistance, timing, or energy.  But how energy is described (sinking, rising, spitting, swallowing) can be a very effective teaching method.  The number of methods is small, and the actual instruction is pretty simple.

On the other side of the pond you have esoteric internal Qigong such as Jade Rabbit Faces China (Yu Toe Jung Wah), a foundational Neigong exercise.  In those your internal practice is focused on yourself, not some opponent imaginary or other.  We are all our own worse enemy, after all.

Always important to remember the "internal" in Chinese arts actually means "internal alchemy", from a Daoist point of view, and it describes a form of personal introspection and wisdom, whether you're grappling, farming, or peeling potatoes.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> your internal practice is focused on yourself, not some opponent imaginary or other.  We are all our own worse enemy, after all.


A: How do you use internal energy to deal with "arm drag"?
B: I use "internal energy" for self-cultivation, culture study, and inner peace.

Even today, I still don't know the connection between self-defense and self-cultivation.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

vic said:


> Can the methods shown below really work outside of sparring, in a competitive fight or self-defense situation?


Do some people assume that takedown is just double legs or bear hug?

There are over 230 different takedowns. For example, how do you use "internal energy" to deal with foot sweep?


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A: How do you use internal energy to deal with "arm drag"?
> B: I use "internal energy" for self-cultivation, culture study, and inner peace.
> 
> Even today, I still don't know the connection between self-defense and self-cultivation.



It requires a heavy education in Daoism.  For originators of TCC (all of the families), it was all one big system, and when it comes to arm drags, TCC has it pretty nailed down from a practical standpoint.  If your Neidan is strong, your "internal" energy is on point and you have Nei gong, and thus you can express it in many different ones, just one of them being combat, but also shoveling manure (best done with the legs and core, and not the arms, and keep your pelvis tucked etc)

Daoism is all about being practical, after all.









						Neidan - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are over 230 different takedowns. For example, how do you use "internal energy" to deal with foot sweep?


One option would be to use my nerves and muscles (which are certainly internal) to lift my foot. Another would be to use those same internal sources to shift my balance off that foot so I don't fall when it's moved.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> One option would be to use my nerves and muscles (which are certainly internal) to lift my foot. Another would be to use those same internal sources to shift my balance off that foot so I don't fall when it's moved.


Is there a difference between

- internal way to lift your foot off vs. external way to lift your foot off?
- internal way to type on your keyboard vs. external way to type on your keyboard?

I may like to name all my body moves as internal so I can feel superior. Is that really necessary?


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is there a difference between
> 
> - internal way to lift your foot off vs. external way to lift your foot off?


Well yeah. I do it internally. I suppose I could grab my leg and lift it with my arms, or have someone else pick it up (hopefully without turning it into a takedown...). Or I could put my foot on a car jack. Or the first step of an escalator...


Kung Fu Wang said:


> - internal way to type on your keyboard vs. external way to type on your keyboard?


Typing from inside my keyboard would be pretty awkward. I could externally type on my keyboard and redirect the output to a Rubber Duck. When I plug that into a USB port, maybe that would count as internal typing? If not, I will probably need something like the Atoms suit so I can fit inside the keyboard, run up and down, and step on the connections for the letters I want to type.


Kung Fu Wang said:


> I may like to name all my body moves as internal so I can feel superior. Is that really necessary?


If that's a true statement, it speaks volumes.


----------



## Buka (May 16, 2022)

I get my internal power from Eggplant Parmigiana with a side of spinach and cheese ravioli. (Don’t knock it if you haven’t good sauce.) I consider the person trying to take me down as someone who is attempting to steal my eggplant. That just ain’t happening’.

The best way to work takedown defense is train with folks who have really good, effective takedowns. You will then make it a point on how to deal with takedowns. Because if you choose not to, man, it’s really going to suck until you do.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is there a difference between
> 
> - internal way to lift your foot off vs. external way to lift your foot off?
> - internal way to type on your keyboard vs. external way to type on your keyboard?
> ...



Yes, but it's not about superiority.  It's the Daoist way of looking at the martial arts.  Kwan Sai Hung comes to mind.

It's important to never forget where these terms come from like "internal".  It's not loosey goosey, there are specific meanings in the _texts_, let alone pictures and video.

There are neijiaquan schools, and waijiaquan schools, and neither one of them was wrong.  It's all very Dao.





__





						Chronicles of Tao: The Secret Life of a Taoist Master: Ming-dao Deng, Deng Ming-Dao: 9780062502193: Amazon.com: Books
					

Chronicles of Tao: The Secret Life of a Taoist Master [Ming-dao Deng, Deng Ming-Dao] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Chronicles of Tao: The Secret Life of a Taoist Master



					www.amazon.com
				








__





						Kwan Sai Hung - Tibet House US | NYC - Official Website
					

Kwan Sai Hung is a martial arts, qigong and tai chi practitioner. In addition, he is a Taoist teacher of the Zheng Yi sect and practiced at the Huashan monastery. His style combines techniques of qigong and tai chi. A fictionalized version of his life is chonicled in ‘The Wandering Taoist’ and...




					thus.org


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 16, 2022)

Steve said:


> Watched the first video.  I think the positive thing I can say about it is that underhooks are definitely useful.


I think before we can talk about anti-takedown, we have to talk about anti-clinch first.

Does internal energy play any part of anti-clinch? How?


----------



## Steve (May 17, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I agree with most of your analysis, except the very first issue you mention. The hands being low at the beginning.
> 
> I think that's useful to practice sometimes-if someone comes and tackles you when you're not already in guard, how quickly can you move your hand to position. Similar to how people practice weapon draws, it's worth trying from different positions.
> 
> That said, in the video itself the actual issue with his hands is his uke. His uke does the 'takedown' in a way that "hands at side" is the perfect position. It almost looks like he's trying to wrap his elbows. That's the problem there, not the demo-er having his hands down.



Fair point.  I'm curious if this guy starts all of his demos from this same position.  I found another video and he does start with his hands at his side.  It seems like a very silly video otherwise, but the hands are, in fact, at his side.


----------



## Cynik75 (May 17, 2022)

example of discussed technique from real encounter:

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/martialarts/comments/ur5nyp


----------



## mograph (May 18, 2022)

In my opinion, it's "internal" if the effort is evenly distributed through as much of the body as possible.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 19, 2022)

mograph said:


> In my opinion, it's "internal" if the effort is evenly distributed through as much of the body as possible.


The Daoists also believe this is true, but use it to differentiate their schools from the Weigong classics, which isn't really fair.

It's really an aesthetic difference, literally.  Even in a standard boxing jab, energy goes from potential to kinetic through a chain of events that start at the ground and work their way up and forward.  Throwing a straight up right cross is also not the TCC way, and they'd say "look, that's an _external _strike".  And still, the same ground to core to upper body reflex is going down.  If it's TCC, it's probably more compact with not so much physical movement required, and the strikes tend to be body oriented vs. long range.

This is something Bagu and TCC (and Xingyi) have in common that makes them physically and visibly similar.

In a TCC sense, the focus on the interior of the body just clicks physically, it's the most important link in the chain, because of where the 3 Dan Tians abide, especially the lowest near the naval.  That is literally the center of your own personal Tai Chi universe.  And even arts that Neijia call "external" like Choy Li Fu or the Five Family schools, also contain Daoist "internal" training methods.  In the end it's the type of training that makes it internal or external (or both, some styles combine Buddhist and Daoist training and so are hard to call either one or the other.

Yi Gi Kim Yeurng Ma is definitely internal Chinese stance.  Crane stance, element of Wood, squeezing energy.  Adduction.

Eight Drunken Immortals Leaving the Cave is NOT from the Neijia!  But it's definitely Daoist.


----------



## mograph (May 19, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In the end it's the type of training that makes it internal or external (or both, some styles combine Buddhist and Daoist training and so are hard to call either one or the other.



That makes sense, and ties into the notion of two paths up the mountain, meeting at the top. It's not that the _art_ is one or the other, but the training method or focus of each is different, as you wrote.

I'm not too big on using the "internal" vs. "external" distinction: maybe a "unified" vs. "isolated" focus might be more useful?

(I tried to find a word for "not-unified," but without negative connotations. "Discrete" might work, but people mix it up with "discreet.")


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2022)

mograph said:


> maybe a "unified" vs. "isolated" focus might be more useful?


Unified - Punch with moving the body.






Isolated - Punch without moving the body.






More body movement behind the punch.






Less body movement behind the punch.


----------



## O'Malley (May 19, 2022)

For me, internal arts, at their most basic, are arts that actively seek to use intent to condition the fascial network so that it's in constant tension, and transmit forces along that network. It maintains the body together, which allows it to better resist incoming forces (so it's harder to break your structure) and to express the strength of bigger muscle groups (legs/hips) elsewhere in the body. That's the baseline for internals. It requires dedicated training as it is very different from conventional movement, which actually adds to the slack in the fascia. 

As for the original question, internals if done correctly make you progressively harder to throw but unless you're very advanced or your opponent sucks you will still need to sprawl against a DLT. The guy in the first video doesn't seem to have "it", for the Chinese guy I don't know.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 19, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> to better resist incoming forces (so it's harder to break your structure)


Most internal guys like to test their internal skill against push. Very few internal guys test their internal skill against pull.

The concern is when A pulls B, if A can't pull B into him, the counter force of A's pulling will pull A into B. In other words, if a pull can establish a clinch, how to deal with a clinch will be the issue.

Will you call this guy using "internal energy"?


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 19, 2022)

mograph said:


> That makes sense, and ties into the notion of two paths up the mountain, meeting at the top. It's not that the _art_ is one or the other, but the training method or focus of each is different, as you wrote.
> 
> I'm not too big on using the "internal" vs. "external" distinction: maybe a "unified" vs. "isolated" focus might be more useful?
> 
> (I tried to find a word for "not-unified," but without negative connotations. "Discrete" might work, but people mix it up with "discreet.")


The easiest way to KISS when it comes to internal is to remember that before the Neijia traditions developed, there is was no "internal" martial art school.

It's an artifact of Chinese history, so it's a useful razor when slicing up Tai Chi or the other internal CMA schools.


----------



## vic (May 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most internal guys like to test their internal skill against push. Very few internal guys test their internal skill against pull.
> 
> The concern is when A pulls B, if A can't pull B into him, the counter force of A's pulling will pull A into B. In other words, if a pull can establish a clinch, how to deal with a clinch will be the issue.
> 
> ...



I would say the "internal" way to counter a pull is not resist but step into it, to attain an advatageous position or get the opponent off balance. He seems to be doing that in the animation.

This video has several bagua counters to pulls at 4:25 and others. He's also stepping into the pull.


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

Ok. There are constant micro adjustments you can make that either make you hard to move or hard to gain to gain momentum from. So you can either be very hard to push or give them nothing to push against m. 

So basically if you push and I structure myself properly you will have a hard time. But if you change direction then theoretically I tip over.

But if I adjust that structure as you adjust the attack then you will have a hard time adjusting to that as well.

Get it right and I will appear to be made out of rock. But it is a product of good timing and spacial awareness and not heavy breathing or navel gazing.


----------



## O'Malley (May 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. There are constant micro adjustments you can make that either make you hard to move or hard to gain to gain momentum from. So you can either be very hard to push or give them nothing to push against m.
> 
> So basically if you push and I structure myself properly you will have a hard time. But if you change direction then theoretically I tip over.
> 
> ...


You're describing a mix of posting and repositioning. It can work really well but it's different from what I'm talking about. In my line of daito ryu, for example, we condition the body to handle forces in all directions at the same time, regardless of whether the opponent is pushing or pulling.

This guy's based in tai chi and also competes quite successfully in BJJ:






This demonstration is also quite clear:






Obviously it does not replace positioning or tactics (e.g. sprawling, crossface, etc.), it's just a different set of skills.


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> You're describing a mix of posting and repositioning. It can work really well but it's different from what I'm talking about. In my line of daito ryu, for example, we condition the body to handle forces in all directions at the same time, regardless of whether the opponent is pushing or pulling.
> 
> This guy's based in tai chi and also competes quite successfully in BJJ:
> 
> ...



The top video is basic grappling concepts.

So with your guy doing body alignment to prevent the snap down. Thai guys use the same concept in the clinch.






So he doesn't explain it. But if you look you can see him change level at the hips to realign his structure.

This might be a better example. So generally it isn't very obvious in wrestling because the guy breaking structure is about as good as the guy keeping structure.





Keep an eye on the big dude in the blue rashie and the guy with the ear muffs.


----------



## O'Malley (May 20, 2022)

Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training



Yet internal artists are not the best grapplers.


----------



## O'Malley (May 20, 2022)

There's more to grappling than your ability to keep alignment and internal arts suffer from suboptimal tactics and live training, in addition to having a much smaller pool of competitors in the first place. Plus, the training is hard and you need proper hands on instruction, which is quite rare.

However, Zhang Weili does fascia conditioning and it looks like it works for her.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yet internal artists are not the best grapplers.


I think this is only superficially true and the more you learn about the Internal MA school histories, the easier it is to understand.

All "Grapplers" try to master internal school (Neijia) concepts in a practical sense, for combat but just outside the Daoist framework.  Because Neijia exercises are essentially Daoyin based, they function well as any modern physical training.  And from a practical POV, that means a focus on th core.

Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Keeping alignment may be a basic grappling concept but internal arts have a specific methodology (solo + partner training) to condition fascia so that it maintains alignment, among other effects. And this fascial conditioning cannot be obtained by conventional movement training


Why not?

Are you telling me my Shaolin waigong isn't also conditioning my fascia??????

Oh no.  I've been doing everything wrong again.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.


In other words, those who practice Taiji, XingYi, Bagua have no interest in combat.

A: The Taoist art will transform you into a new human being, if practised with depth in mind.
B: But I'm only interesting in how to land my fist on my opponent's face.

When A and B talk, they are just like a chicken talks to a duck.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In other words, those who practice Taiji, XingYi, Bagua have no interest in combat.
> 
> A: The Taoist art will transform you into a new human being, if practised with depth in mind.
> B: But I'm only interesting in how to land my fist on my opponent's face.
> ...


Another way of saying, it's important to divine out martial technique building from life technique.

For some people, they'll ovelap. For others not so much.

And in between a lot who will try to convince you for a dollar.

My Tai Chi training was/is very physical with lots of resistance.  My Bagua training was largely theoretical.  Hung Kuen external portion was brutal, the internal portion is enlightening.

For Sanshou purposes, it all works in somewhere, but I'm getting too old for that stuff, now, so Neigong is where I'm at.  And I find it funny that Daoist schools often consider Shaolinquan "external," even though Shoalin Si studied the entire Daoist playbook and then some.


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> There's more to grappling than your ability to keep alignment and internal arts suffer from suboptimal tactics and live training, in addition to having a much smaller pool of competitors in the first place. Plus, the training is hard and you need proper hands on instruction, which is quite rare.
> 
> However, Zhang Weili does fascia conditioning and it looks like it works for her.



And you mean this sort of stuff?


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think this is only superficially true and the more you learn about the Internal MA school histories, the easier it is to understand.
> 
> All "Grapplers" try to master internal school (Neijia) concepts in a practical sense, for combat but just outside the Daoist framework.  Because Neijia exercises are essentially Daoyin based, they function well as any modern physical training.  And from a practical POV, that means a focus on th core.
> 
> Tai chi, Bagua, and Xingyi all teach basic wrestling principles, but the number of people today who use it for combat are outnumbered by people who do it for fitness by a factor of lots.



Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.

And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.

Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.
> 
> And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.
> 
> Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.


It doesn't provide anything unique.  It's just body grappling from a different point of view, and each of the Neijia schools tackled it a little different.  But one huge difference between internal and external schools are the hand postures.  External schools have many, internal schools don't (because of the core/body focus).

But that's part of the of problem with arts like Tai Chi or Wing Chun.  The people who take them up are so focused on their uniqueness, they forget the important of physical mastery, which is a no brainer thing in wrestling.  As in Duh, man, if chi is real, you should be a wrestling god.

I'll grant you this, the Neijia schools are far outweighed by the "external" schools in full contact fighting competion.  But as I keep saying some of those schools are actually internal+external because their founders realized more than a century ago, I'd like some more please, and combined techniques from multiple schools.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> My Bagua training was largely theoretical.


If you can walk around your opponent fast enough, you can change your opponent into a new born baby.

I now understand why "internal" guys all hate me.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can walk around your opponent fast enough, you can change your opponent into a new born baby.


The more number of directions the better, IMHO.


----------



## O'Malley (May 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Why not?
> 
> Are you telling me my Shaolin waigong isn't also conditioning my fascia??????
> 
> Oh no.  I've been doing everything wrong again.





drop bear said:


> Yeah. But we are discussing that it is a unique method of training that provides a unique skill for wrestlers. So you can't get this from a knees over toes program or skipping or whatever else good wrestlers do that makes them able to structure their bodies in a way that makes them hard to manipulate.
> 
> And for that to be true. It needs to be demonstrated in some way.
> 
> Not just the old trope where all the success is over here where nobody can see it.


It's easy to check. Take a wrestler/shaolin/whatever, have him do basic internals push tests (such as the ones in the Aunkai video). If it works, then congrats that person's previous training already developed that skill. If not, get the person to train internals, redo the test and see if he has developed the skill.


----------



## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> It's easy to check. Take a wrestler/shaolin/whatever, have him do basic internals push tests (such as the ones in the Aunkai video). If it works, then congrats that person's previous training already developed that skill. If not, get the person to train internals, redo the test and see if he has developed the skill.



And that is this test?


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 20, 2022)

This is a much better test, and it actually shows what Neigong is supposed to look like.  Who needs a random Test Your Might moment, when you can learn TCC and other internal arts properly and simply walk into a mat and throw down.

Sadly these types of tournaments don't get as much fanfare as they should, and of course a lot of alleged Tai Chi Gurus out there love to say this isn't really what TCC is about ("too external" etc)

If you love wrestling like I do, yes it is.  And these kids feel like Immortals themselves afterward.  You can feel the vibe, you can see how Qi works, and why mastering the body's alignment and center of mass (which happens to lie along the axis formed by the 3 Dantians) is so important to grappling skills.

This is my standard for any Tai Chi dude who claims to have skill, and boy oh boy, so many TCC simply would not qualify without amping up their game.


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 22, 2022)

One of the best things about fraternizing with many excellent martial artists is I get sent really cool memes that actually make sense, like this simple explanation of "internal".

Now, did CMC actually say this somewhere?

Is the Yang Family TCC Mafia going to show up?  Self quarantining, so I've got some time on my hands.


----------



## seasoned (May 22, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> One of the best things about fraternizing with many excellent martial artists is I get sent really cool memes that actually make sense, like this simple explanation of "internal".
> 
> Now, did CMC actually say this somewhere?
> 
> ...


As it is with many Martial Arts........if taught or grasped. "when the hands move the feet move."


----------



## mograph (May 23, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 28449


According to Waysun Liao (_The Essence of T'ai Chi_, Shambala, 1995), CMC told his students that he had a dream in which he had no arms or legs. After that dream, "his practice improved and his ch'i flowed smoothly." (p. 58)


----------



## Oily Dragon (May 23, 2022)

mograph said:


> According to Waysun Liao (_The Essence of T'ai Chi_, Shambala, 1995), CMC told his students that he had a dream in which he had no arms or legs. After that dream, "his practice improved and his ch'i flowed smoothly." (p. 58)


----------



## Yanli (May 24, 2022)

vic said:


> Can the methods shown below really work outside of sparring, in a competitive fight or self-defense situation?


  That technique can work in a real fight situation, however, that situation will only arise when a opponent finds his hands or feet do not or has not been working against you. In other words, you will get idiots that will charge you because they feel they have no other choice. I say idiot, because when a person charges you, they leave so much of themselves open to so many counters, however, the person doing the bear claw leaves themselves open to many counters as well lol.


----------



## zzj (May 25, 2022)

vic said:


> Can the methods shown below really work outside of sparring, in a competitive fight or self-defense situation?


Ignore the judo video, the judo guy was told to go easy and the whole clip was produced in that propaganda-ish fashion that still happens in China.


----------



## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

zzj said:


> Ignore the judo video, the judo guy was told to go easy and the whole clip was produced in that propaganda-ish fashion that still happens in China.



Yeah. I have been trying to find the karate kickboxing guy who did one. That makes that point super obvious.


----------



## Anarax (May 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yet internal artists are not the best grapplers.


That is the attacker's fault, they attacked the artist wrong


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be we need to define what "internal energy" is. Is it superior than "external energy"? How?


Never heard anyone that I know express this,  they say, that its different all CMA are "internal"
The difference is in how and what is used to express it...






"内家拳六面力vs中国跤劲路.(The power of Neijiaquan in six directions VS The power line of Chinese wrestling）"

What is shown based on xingyi perspective,
taiji , bagua  use a different method depending on teacher


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 15, 2022)

Bagua style take downs


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 15, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> Bagua style take downs


Breaking people's feet off.  That's the real kung Fu.

My knowledge of Baguazhang is basic, so thanks for the vids.

One of the most menacing Kung Fu Sanda fighters I've ever seen was a Baguazhang guy.  I think he fought pro at some point too, but he was as down to earth and funny as he is as an absolute hulk on the mats.

Video out there somewhere of him sparring, who knows where but if I find it, you're gonna feel pain through the screen.


----------



## Cynik75 (Nov 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Breaking people's feet off.  That's the real kung Fu.


As I can see the main point of attack is knee (kind of heel hook attack).  I really doubt if he can succesfully attack an anckle in this way.
But without any control of the rest of the body, this technique shoul be applied very, very fast or the opponent will escape by rolling.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 15, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> As I can see the main point of attack is knee (kind of heel hook attack).  I really doubt if he can succesfully attack an anckle in this way.
> But without any control of the rest of the body, this technique shoul be applied very, very fast or the opponent will escape by rolling.


Yeah it's kind of a weak demo.

Fast and furious, heel hooks are freaking brutal in any position.  Thank God they're banned in a lot of places.  Injuries suck and these are the worst I've ever experienced (I call it "shanked ankle" or shankled...months of recovery ).


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yeah it's kind of a weak demo.


😂 tough crowd

A demo...the type of body developed from the practice is very solid,,,not many internal gaps if any 😐...
Speed, reaction time is slowed, controlled movements showing the idea in use.
Being that it is a demo...not actual usage


----------



## drop bear (Nov 15, 2022)

Cynik75 said:


> As I can see the main point of attack is knee (kind of heel hook attack).  I really doubt if he can succesfully attack an anckle in this way.
> But without any control of the rest of the body, this technique shoul be applied very, very fast or the opponent will escape by rolling.



Or kick them.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yeah it's kind of a weak demo.
> 
> Fast and furious, heel hooks are freaking brutal in any position.  Thank God they're banned in a lot of places.  Injuries suck and these are the worst I've ever experienced (I call it "shanked ankle" or shankled...months of recovery ).



Hard to do on a hard surface. You get a demo with the guy trying to fall over. But also not trying to fall over.

Those throws do exist as working throws.


----------



## O'Malley (Nov 16, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> 😂 tough crowd
> 
> A demo...the type of body developed from the practice is very solid,,,not many internal gaps if any 😐...
> Speed, reaction time is slowed, controlled movements showing the idea in use.
> Being that it is a demo...not actual usage



I like what I see in the video, even though the really interesting stuff has to be _felt_. You mentioned "6 directions" in the xingyi video, is it a concept in your art as well? Assuming that we're talking about the same thing, I appreciate that it is incredibly difficult to maintain 6D in movement (I couldn't do those throws properly, even without a partner).

Are you talking about this type of body?


----------



## O'Malley (Nov 16, 2022)

More cool stuff:


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 16, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> I like what I see in the video, even though the really interesting stuff has to be _felt_. You mentioned "6 directions" in the xingyi video, is it a concept in your art as well? Assuming that we're talking about the same thing,



Hard to say, my training based on the methods of my teacher in Beijing...taiji,
Master Zhang Yong liang 張永良師傅. 1920–2020

He and his group used some of the members there who had training in "Shuai jiao" Chinese wrestling, or of some bagua practitioners who used to come and practice with his group.

They would try different holds and take downs....He using his methods would "demo" how to neutralize them...







some of the practice during 2002
In his 80s at the time of the demo, the clip not a formal demo nor any type of competition.   having said that, those there are actively trying to see if they can use their technique on the master
it was funny  😂

,
 A little off topic,,our practice focused primarily on the use of intent, developing it, actively using it as part of an overall  strategy based method
​


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 16, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> More cool stuff:


Often what looks" cool"  🤔

 is very focused on showing or demoing a specific technique or concept.
In reality, or the term most often used "resisting opponent" 😐
 of equal or greater skill

The ability to apply it very much dependent on other skill factors not used in the "demo".


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 16, 2022)

O'Malley said:


>


What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?

- I hold on your arm.
- You turn your arm and put pressure on my grip.
- I'm still stupid enough not to release my grip.

In real world, this will never happen.


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?








Some observations 🤔

Look closely at what the teacher is doing with his own arm, relative to the action of the student griping it...
By twisting his arm as he moves it creates a  continuous spiral towards the inside, acting within the students center of gravity by changing his body position.  In taiji we would call this "sticking" allowing him to "join" and "follow" the movement.  The first part a given "attaching"  done by asking the student to grip his arm,,,

Any one not understanding this trying to escape directly would have a hard time, depending on the ability of the teacher to sense adjust....and control their center... Not so easy, something that takes a while "for those interested" in this method

It's a "demo" by nature limited in action and intent

Listen to what this teacher explains as "freezing"
Whether one feels it works or not "watching it"

Those on the receiving end are reacting to what they feel.






Lots of work developing the proprioception necessary to use this within ones own body, extending this sense into another's body.
.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 17, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?
> 
> - I hold on your arm.
> - You turn your arm and put pressure on my grip.
> ...


When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife.  If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut.  I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.


----------



## tkdroamer (Nov 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife.  If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut.  I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.


We specifically practiced control techniques, which were basically working on grip strength and how to grab the joint (usually wrist) in certain scenarios. No pressure point stuff. It was purely for control of the weapon.


----------



## O'Malley (Nov 17, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> Hard to say, my training based on the methods of my teacher in Beijing...taiji,
> Master Zhang Yong liang 張永良師傅. 1920–2020
> 
> He and his group used some of the members there who had training in "Shuai jiao" Chinese wrestling, or of some bagua practitioners who used to come and practice with his group.
> ...


That's a great demo, your master was skilled! I've seen high-level daito ryu and taiji people pull off similar demos. The end is fun to watch as you can see the guy in beige/yellow switch from pushing to pulling to twisting and none of those things affect the teacher.

Yes, intent is also a big focus in some lines of aikido/daito ryu (and I'm working on it, that's the most interesting part in my opinion!). Koichi Tohei also focused on intent:






I asked about 6 directions because it's also a concept found in daito ryu and aikido (it's called "roppo"). One should stand in 6D before, during and after each technique. The founder of aikido also defined "aiki" as the manifestation of yin and yang inside the body, like in Chinese internal arts.



windwalker099 said:


> Often what looks" cool"  🤔
> 
> is very focused on showing or demoing a specific technique or concept.
> In reality, or the term most often used "resisting opponent" 😐
> ...



I agree. This skill is different from fighting skills, although it can help. Here's a good illustration of applications by a taiji-based BJJ coach (the best part is around 4:00):








Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make his opponent not be able to release his grip?
> 
> - I hold on your arm.
> - You turn your arm and put pressure on my grip.
> ...



There's no pressure on the grip (if there is, I'm doing it wrong). There's a spiral rotation that affects your body through the contact point (your grip) and 1) takes away your balance and 2) breaks down your structure.

If this happens and I move into your space, 1) you have to rely on me for balance and 2) you're also trying to prevent me from invading. If you let go, you fall or you let me enter your space. This is very visible at around 0:48 in the video below:









						Short Form releases
					

Short form of Tomiki release motions.




					www.youtube.com
				




windwalker099 understands it (better than I do) so I'll refer to his answer. What's fascinating is that, although his background is in Chinese arts and mine in aikido and daito ryu (so Japanese), it is clear that we have similar views on some fundamental concepts. And it's not a given: those fundamental concepts are so easy to get wrong! I've met a lot of people in Japanese and Chinese martial arts who cannot do even the most basic version of the things we've seen in these videos (and I'm not that good myself because true internal stuff is still new to me).



windwalker099 said:


> Some observations 🤔
> 
> Look closely at what the teacher is doing with his own arm, relative to the action of the student griping it...
> By twisting his arm as he moves it creates a  continuous spiral towards the inside, acting within the students center of gravity by changing his body position.  In taiji we would call this "sticking" allowing him to "join" and "follow" the movement.  The first part a given "attaching"  done by asking the student to grip his arm,,,
> ...


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 17, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Yes, intent is also a big focus in some lines of aikido/daito ryu (and I'm working on it, that's the most interesting part in my opinion!). Koichi Tohei also focused on intent:



Interesting

As you may know Aikido is kind of separated into distinct lines with very different ideas about the founders work.
In some aspects similar to the world of taiji 🙂


A good friend of mine was teaching and working with Aikido from the Tohei, branch in Hawaii back in the 80s,,
He the one who suggested I start training in taiji to supplement and deepen my understanding of CMA at the time....

Later finding something I felt was unique would be something that i would continue through different teachers, method/styles until finding my last teacher quite by accident...

In meeting him and his group, understanding that I found what I was looking for..

Dropping everything else to learn and practice his method..... Physically and mentally found it to be very challenging having to drop,  rewire a lot of body mind reactions.


----------



## windwalker099 (Nov 17, 2022)

Interesting clip he mentions "skin"

We use 3 levels of contact

skin
hair
air

It's not based on dealing with what we refer to as the frame "bone" using direct leverage...


What he refers to as elastic body, one  part included in our
3 levels of training,  understood as working with the fascia among other things

water
wind
dragon wind

the theory specifically, dealing from a Chinese viewpoint of how the body mind interaction works, based on
 intent "yi" ,power  qi,  "shen" spirit


----------



## drop bear (Nov 17, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I see things like this, I think of scenarios where I may be less willing to let go and each time I come up with sword and knife.  If I'm grabbing the knife hand of my attacker then I can control the arm to prevent from being stabbed or cut.  I know that as soon as I let go of that wrist that I'm going to get stabbed.



Hanging on has its own downside in that you then also work let your arm be moved like that.


----------



## O'Malley (Dec 6, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> It's not based on dealing with what we refer to as the frame "bone" using direct leverage...


Yes, although in application you can easily revert to that. But you meed more strength.



windwalker099 said:


> What he refers to as elastic body, one  part included in our
> 3 levels of training,  understood as working with the fascia among other things
> 
> water
> ...


Yes, fascia training and intent training are crucial in some lines of daito ryu aikijujutsu and aikido, and personally I think that it's the most interesting part of martial arts training. And I don't know much about "shen" or spiritual aspects but, as I understand it, Morihei Ueshiba (aikido's founder) practiced his art as a form of mind-body-spirit purification. And the more he did it, the stronger his mind-body connection became.


----------



## mograph (Dec 6, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> And I don't know much about "shen" or spiritual aspects ...


A fellow practitioner (from HK) explained shen to me in a more practical way, compared to what I've read. It's basically the aggregate *result* of all the good practices. In other words, good shen is "spirit" in the sense of *being spirited*, full of energy, happy, focused, yet relaxed.

It's the summary of good health. High-functioning, vivacious, vibrant, dynamic. 
This is the shen we seek: not an escape _from_ our bodies, but high-functioning _within_ them.

Make sense?


----------



## windwalker099 (Dec 6, 2022)

mograph said:


> Make sense?


Not really,,,,but thats ok....🙂

Before speaking on this it might be helpful to look at some of the theory...
This is one theory


> 孙瑜：内家训练须从筋膜入手
> 2022-11-11 新民网
> 
> 孙瑜/文
> ...






> 训练暗劲重点就是通过九要，四正八筋，全身气、血、膜合为一体，筋膜腾起，周身练成＂一根筋”练成像弓弦一样震弹的大筋，如一张大网松紧变化，拧裹崩弹成万向球。孙祿堂先生说的＂骨如铜球，筋如钢丝球，内气如气球＂，外形上看不使
> 
> The key point of training Anjin is to pass the nine essentials, four straightening and eight tendons, the whole body's qi, blood, and membranes are integrated, the fascia rises, and the whole body becomes "one tendon" and the big tendons vibrate like a bowstring, like a big net changing in tension , twisted and collapsed into a universal ball.
> 
> Mr. Sun Lutang said, "Bones are like copper balls, tendons are like steel wool balls, and internal air is like balloons."


----------



## windwalker099 (Dec 6, 2022)

continued



> 拙力，能承力化力，触碰其身，如同打足了气的橡皮轮胎，弹射而出，外柔内刚，这就是内家髙手身怀绝技功夫之一（即老牛筋），是最优化的发力模式。
> 本人从事中医及运动医学，在人体解剖工作实践中证实筋膜主要成分是胶原蛋白纤维强弹力物质，与中医经络十二经筋密切相关，从动力学主要是深筋膜（大筋）联通骨骼、体液，加强中枢神经系统传导功能。这是内家拳功夫脱胎换骨后天返先天，需要特别重视强化的一关。
> 
> Clumsy strength, capable of bearing force and transforming force, touches the body, like a fully inflated rubber tire, ejected, soft on the outside and strong on the inside, this is one of the special skills of the inner master (that is, the old beef tendon) , which is the optimal power generation mode.
> ...





> 辨别真假功夫，很简单，实践是唯一标准，只有功夫真正上身，通过真实的较量，才能辨别真伪。所以练习技击者当先从改造筋骨入手，易筋易骨洗髓是技击的基本功之一，如这个还没练出来，请你就不要从事技击，否则人体如同玻璃一样，不堪一击。护命之艺与竞赛套路取向完全不同，传统武术真正的功夫虽也练套路，但此套路非彼套路，性质不同，体用二全才是武术真正不凡之成就。
> 
> It is very simple to distinguish true and false kung fu. Practice is the only criterion. Only when kung fu is mastered and through real contests can the true and false be distinguished. Therefore, practitioners of martial arts should first start with the transformation of muscles and bones.
> 
> ...






> 作者简介：
> 孙瑜现任上海精武体育总会会太极拳专业委员会主任。瑞士长寿研究俱乐部健康养生顾问。中国武术六段。孙禄堂内家拳第三代传人、吴式太极拳第五代传人、陈式太极拳第十二代传人。
> 
> About the Author:
> Sun Yu is currently the director of the Taijiquan Professional Committee of the Shanghai Jingwu Sports Federation. Health and wellness consultant of the Swiss Longevity Research Club. Sixth paragraph of Chinese martial arts. Sun Lutang is the third-generation descendant of Neijiaquan, the fifth-generation descendant of Wu-style




https://focus.youth.cn/s/article_share_ ... are_way=wx


----------



## mograph (Dec 7, 2022)

windwalker099 said:


> continued


Yes, all that is physical, healthy, valuable, correct, but it's dealing with Qi. _Shen_ is what we see in a person who practices all that well.


----------

