# My Grandmaster



## rchurch (Nov 11, 2008)

About a year ago or so I came across this forum and responded to a thread about the price of black belts. Some of you may remember that discussion, others may not. I was new to martial arts and was interested in learning about running a martial arts school, as I had started one for my son. In the discussions about the price of black belts it seemed there was a great discrepancy in what everyone in the discussion paid and/or charged, and what I had paid for my son's belts. An interesting discussion was held on this subject, but it soon turned into Grandmasters and money. There were varying opinions, some good, some not so good. Now that some time has passed, and I have learned a great deal more about martial arts, there are some things, and one thing in particular, I would like to clarify and close this discussion that I feel was left openended.

At the time of the discussion, I didn't know my grandmaster very well, and didn't know the details involved in running a martial arts school. Since, I have spend a lot of time with my Grandmaster and have seen what it takes to have a school and qualified instructors. The money I paid for the belts included private lessons for my son, the Grandmaster coming to our studio at least twice a week to teach classes, which she has done for the past year, and also to help defray costs of Grandmaster Hae Man Park to visit the studio and present my son his 2nd Dan black belt. All of this became evident to me as time passed between when the discussion was held and now. I discovered that the money was money well spent after all. I'm sure many of you would agree that when you add all this together, the difference between $500 for a belt test and several thousand for everything I listed above added in makes more sense. Just having a Grandmaster teach at the studio is a tremendous honor. 

The thing I want to clarify is during the discussion, there were questions raised about my Grandmaster being a true Grandmaster, was she qualified, etc. I want to say, and leave no doubt, that my Grandmaster is and always has been a Grandmaster in every sense of the word. She is knowledgable, a very able teacher, and, now that I have gotten to know her better, a true friend to her students and instructors.

As far as the school, we suffered major damage from Hurricane Ike, approximately 2 feet of water in the studio, but we re-opened 2 weeks ago and students are returning. As always, the students are our biggest concern, so we worked hard to get the studio open and back in business for them. We will continue to work towards having a studio that our students enjoy learning in and our Grandmaster is proud of. 

I really don't want to open this discussion again, but I did feel I owe it to my Grandmaster to come back to the forum and make sure this issue is resolved and there is no doubt about her status as a true Grandmaster and friend


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## Drac (Nov 11, 2008)

Good Post...


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## Twin Fist (Nov 11, 2008)

Glad you are happy, but you are wrong.

you got ripped off

she can claim to be whatever she wants to, but there is NO evidence anywhere that she is who and what she claims to be, and NO ONE has ever heard of her.

 On this board, that means something, since we have people here from ALL levels of Martial arts from true grandmasters to rank beginners.

smarter more experienced people than me told you to run as far away from her as you could.

You have chosen not to, and as long as you are happy, I am happy for you


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2008)

Since I don't know what the original discussion was, can you inform me on who your grandmaster is?  Do you have her full name?  There are not a lot of female grandmasters so I would be interested in knowing who you are talking about.  Also, Is GM Park her GM?  Why did you have him come out to award your son his 2nd Dan?  Again, just curious.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 11, 2008)

rchurch said:


> About a year ago or so I came across this forum and responded to a thread about the price of black belts. Some of you may remember that discussion, others may not. I was new to martial arts and was interested in learning about running a martial arts school, as I had started one for my son. In the discussions about the price of black belts it seemed there was a great discrepancy in what everyone in the discussion paid and/or charged, and what I had paid for my son's belts. An interesting discussion was held on this subject, but it soon turned into Grandmasters and money. There were varying opinions, some good, some not so good. Now that some time has passed, and I have learned a great deal more about martial arts, there are some things, and one thing in particular, I would like to clarify and close this discussion that I feel was left openended.
> 
> At the time of the discussion, I didn't know my grandmaster very well, and didn't know the details involved in running a martial arts school. Since, I have spend a lot of time with my Grandmaster and have seen what it takes to have a school and qualified instructors. The money I paid for the belts included private lessons for my son, the Grandmaster coming to our studio at least twice a week to teach classes, which she has done for the past year, and also to help defray costs of Grandmaster Hae Man Park to visit the studio and present my son his 2nd Dan black belt. All of this became evident to me as time passed between when the discussion was held and now. I discovered that the money was money well spent after all. I'm sure many of you would agree that when you add all this together, the difference between $500 for a belt test and several thousand for everything I listed above added in makes more sense. Just having a Grandmaster teach at the studio is a tremendous honor.
> 
> ...


 
I understand your wish to not open another subject on this matter, but I think I may have missed the original thread...

Are you talking about paying your grandmaster for belts as in paying her to rank your son?  Is your son actually performing the tests to be a 2nd dan, or are you saying that you're paying for the test to not be given but the rank given anyway?

It's hard to tell what you're referring to in your post, so that's why I was asking.  I mean no disrespect.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 11, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Since I don't know what the original discussion was, can you inform me on who your grandmaster is? Do you have her full name? There are not a lot of female grandmasters so I would be interested in knowing who you are talking about. Also, Is GM Park her GM? Why did you have him come out to award your son his 2nd Dan? Again, just curious.


I also am curious about her and I missed the first discussion.

Daniel


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## IcemanSK (Nov 11, 2008)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=969173#post969173

See post #73 & following.


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## bostonbomber (Nov 11, 2008)

I too wasn't part of the original discussion.  Does a Grandmaster need to be famous to be good?  I've met famous grandmasters, but some seemed to be simply masters of grand self-promotion.  I obviously can't comment on yours.

I'm sorry to here about the hurricane damage.  I truly wish you the best of luck getting your school back together.


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## Twin Fist (Nov 11, 2008)

they got charged ELEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS for 2nd degree.

thats all you need to know.


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## bostonbomber (Nov 11, 2008)

Ouch!


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 11, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=969173#post969173
> 
> See post #73 & following.


 
Thanks for supplying the link to that thread...I'm slow finding things this morning...

I only read post #73.  I didn't even need to read the rest of it.

$7000 for 1st dan, $4000 for 2nd dan.  Wow.

I briefly read Terry's post directly below that about how they could fly to Korea and study directly from someone of KKW lineage at the source and earn the rank for the same amount of money.  I think that's spot-on.

I don't care how good this "grandmaster" is in the martial arts...she could probably take me on, and I'm not going to dispute that at all...but no 1st dan is worth that much money.  Seriously, if you really and truly paid that much money for the ranks, then your son should be able to fly.

Do yourself a favor and don't study under any of the people that she's affiliated with ever again, and have your son evaluated by someone who is *verifiably* of KKW lineage to certify his rank...if he's able to earn it, that is.  It's entirely possible that he needs to be retrained from whitebelt.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 11, 2008)

rchurch said:


> At the time of the discussion, I didn't know my grandmaster very well, and didn't know the details involved in running a martial arts school. Since, I have spend a lot of time with my Grandmaster and have seen what it takes to have a school and qualified instructors. The money I paid for the belts included private lessons for my son, the Grandmaster coming to our studio at least twice a week to teach classes, which she has done for the past year, and also to help defray costs of Grandmaster Hae Man Park to visit the studio and present my son his 2nd Dan black belt. All of this became evident to me as time passed between when the discussion was held and now. I discovered that the money was money well spent after all. I'm sure many of you would agree that when you add all this together, the difference between $500 for a belt test and several thousand for everything I listed above added in makes more sense.


If you and your son paid the sum total of eleven grand to franchise a business, then yes, it would make sense.  I did go to the original thread, however and after reading it in its entirety, that is not what you appear to have done.

You indicated that you set up the school on your own and that your son paid for the KKW instructor's certification class that is only offered in Korea without going to Korea, and for which he cannot receive said certification until he is fourth dan, but at present he is only second dan.

Seven years of training at my own school would not cost eleven thousand dollars, incidentally.  

If you feel that you have received eleven grand worth of goods and services from your GM, then that is between you, your son, and she.  From what I have read and from what you've said, I don't get that impression though.

Best wishes,

Daniel


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## jks9199 (Nov 11, 2008)

I just re-read the relevant portion of that thread, too.  A thought occurred to me, and I didn't spot it coming up before.  That $7000 and $4000 for 1st and 2nd degrees might be reasonable -- if it's covering the entirety of the training.  Figuring a year and half (typical first degree at many TKD schools in my area) or so for first degree, and then another year for the second... it's very expensive, but not completely outrageous.  Especially if you figure that part of that would include the various testing fees over the time period.

I'm not suggesting that's the case -- but it's a legitimate possibility.

I'm still suspicious about the set-up, and my concerns about a kid running a school remain.  But I wish 'em both luck.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 11, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I just re-read the relevant portion of that thread, too. A thought occurred to me, and I didn't spot it coming up before. That $7000 and $4000 for 1st and 2nd degrees might be reasonable -- if it's covering the entirety of the training. Figuring a year and half (typical first degree at many TKD schools in my area) or so for first degree, and then another year for the second... it's very expensive, but not completely outrageous. Especially if you figure that part of that would include the various testing fees over the time period.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that's the case -- but it's a legitimate possibility.
> 
> I'm still suspicious about the set-up, and my concerns about a kid running a school remain. But I wish 'em both luck.


 
Going by that scenario (correct me if I'm wrong on any of this):

Assuming that testing fees for underbelts is $100 and 1st Dan testing is the $170 fee I saw in Terry's post, that comes out to $670 in testing fees.

Subtract that from the $7000 for the 1st dan and that leaves you with $6330.  Divide that by a year and a half, or 18 months, and that gives you $351.67 per month.

So we have a total of *$670 for all the testing fees* and *$351.67 per month tuition.  *

If this number sounds off, let me know, but if I'm paying $120 per month *more* than my car payment for TKD lessons, something's wrong.


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## zeeberex (Nov 11, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> they got charged ELEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS for 2nd degree.
> 
> thats all you need to know.



uh, yeah.........................


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## Miles (Nov 11, 2008)

rchurch said:


> At the time of the discussion, I didn't know my grandmaster very well, and didn't know the details involved in running a martial arts school. Since, I have spend a lot of time with my Grandmaster and have seen what it takes to have a school and qualified instructors. The money I paid for the belts included private lessons for my son, the Grandmaster coming to our studio at least twice a week to teach classes, which she has done for the past year, and also to help defray costs of Grandmaster Hae Man Park to visit the studio and present my son his 2nd Dan black belt. All of this became evident to me as time passed between when the discussion was held and now. I discovered that the money was money well spent after all. ......
> As far as the school, we suffered major damage from Hurricane Ike, approximately 2 feet of water in the studio, but we re-opened 2 weeks ago and students are returning. As always, the students are our biggest concern, so we worked hard to get the studio open and back in business for them. We will continue to work towards having a studio that our students enjoy learning in and our Grandmaster is proud of.
> 
> I really don't want to open this discussion again, but I did feel I owe it to my Grandmaster to come back to the forum and make sure this issue is resolved and there is no doubt about her status as a true Grandmaster and friend


 
You sound like an honorable individual trying to set the record straight.  You feel the money was well-spent-your's is the only opinion that counts.  You've stated there were private lessons plus other costs involved.

Sorry to hear of the hurricane-damage.  I am glad you were able to get your dojang back up and running.


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2008)

Congratulations, you have been scammed.  Sorry but you have.  After reading this and the original thread I can wholehearedly say you have been scammed.  First and foremost, as you have been told by others here, you paid way too much money for your testing fees.  Now far be it for me to criticize someone from making some $$$ but she is lying to you as to why.  KKW does not charge that much money as you have been told time and time again.

Secondly, I am assuming you are living in the US, but in the US you can open a school at any rank.  Now whether or not people will learn from a 1st dan I don't know.  If you want to be able to promote people in KKW Taekwondo, you have to be a minimum of a 4th dan (if you want to certify your students through the KKW).  KKW also looks down upon a 1st or 2nd dan opening up their own school in the first place if they are teaching TKD. 

Bottomline is that you should seriously think about what people are trying to tell you on this site.  I am still interested in knowing your instructor's full name so we can do a background check on her.


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## Dana (Nov 11, 2008)

If your instructor claims KKW rank, all you need is their birthday and you can check the KKW site.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/index.jsp

"Check for Poom/Dan"

Put in their nationality and name exactly as it shows up on their certificate (if you've ever seen one) and it will list their KKW rank and when they got it.

This of course will not display Kwan or personal certificates.

KKWs are inexpensive, relationships are not.

I believe his instructor's name is Grandmaster Myong Hui Munoz.  I've never heard of her, but I can guarantee she's probably never heard of me either!!  

Dana


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## rchurch (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks to everyone responding.  Let me go over some of this and I think many of you will see where I'm coming from.

The school is not a franchise, but is under the GM.  I run the business side of the school, so it is not just a kid trying to run it.  

My son did not buy the belts, he very much earned them.  We have a 4th Dan taekwondo instructor who teaches every night, along with a 3rd Dan instructor, so we do not have a 2nd Dan as the only instructor.  The GM was teaching an average of twice per week for the first year we were open, but has slowed down some now.  We have now been open for 15 months.  Some of the money spent included her teaching the class.  My son's first love is kung fu and he teaches that class.  I think it is an honor for our students to have a GM instructing and that is part of what I paid for.  

The money spent also included private lessons from the Grandmaster for both the 1st Dan and 2nd Dan belts.  This was in addition to his kung fu lessons from her.  I would think private lesons from a Grandmaster can be fairly expensive.  

The grandmaster invited GM Park to come to our studio to present belts and allow our students the opportunity to meet him.  I don't think he is her Grandmaster.

I don't know if I will ever know everything about my Grandmaster, but as I said in my post, now that I've gotten to know her I am satisfied that everything is good.  I know that some of you won't agree, but I can honestly say now that time has passed and I see what all I got for the money, it comes out pretty cheap for the class lessons at the school, private lessons for my son, and his belt rankings, all from a Grandmaster, along with the presentation from GM Park.  I appreciate the input from everyone and the wellwishes.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 12, 2008)

RChurch,

You keep emphasizing that your son received private lessons and his rank from a _grandmaster_, as if this somehow makes a world of difference.  For the record, I learn from a grandmaster and have received all of my ranks from a grandmaster, and I've spent far less than you have, and that includes lessons for my two sons.

Understand that 'grandmaster' in the states usually just means that they are a master with other masters working in their employ and in some cases, also own multiple schools or have students who have opened up their own schools but operate under the GM's auspices.  Often, the title is used simply because of the wow factor with the buying public.  But in most scenarios, you can repace the title of grandmaster with the title of general manager or owner.

After a practitioner passes the fifth dan mark, most of the rankings become administrative, thus a ninth dan isn't automatically better than an eighth dan in the practice of the art, but may hold greater responsibility or authority within the organization.

Which brings me to the fact that outside of an organization, the titles of master and grandmaster are unimportant; my grandmaster has no authority, or even rank, in the ITF.  If this lady is a grandmaster in Kung Fu, then her title is meaningless in taekwondo aside from the fact that she owns a school.  I'd be willing to bet that the fourth dan instructor is the one signing off on any taekwondo certificates as well, though I certainly could be wrong in my assumption.

So my question to you is this: what does it mean to you that she is a grandmaster?  Having the title doesn't mean much these days, sadly, as many instructors break off from their core federations and promote themselves to grandmaster and ninth dan, while never attaining any rank above second or third.  Some don't even have first dan.  In what way, beyond being a school owner, does she qualify as a grandmaster?  And holding dan ranks in multiple arts does not make one a grandmaster.

Thank you,

Daniel


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## rchurch (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for this information.  Some of it, like the ranks above 5th dan being administrative, I knew, but the other information is new to me.

I believe my grandmaster is Kukkiwon because her ranking is in taekwondo and the certificates we give our students are Kukkiwon and are signed by her as a grandmaster.  The 4th dan also signs as head instructor.  

So, I guess it does come down to maybe I paid too much, but I'm not complaining.  It is an honor, as it should be for anyone, to have a grandmaster as your teacher.

Again, the information you gave is enlightening.  Thanks.


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## Dana (Nov 12, 2008)

For your information, this is what a modern (below 8th dan) Kukkiwon certificate looks like:

http://www.napataekwondo.com/kukkiwonblackbeltcertificate/

There is no place for anyone besides the Kukkiwon president to sign it.

This is what someone who tells you they send to Korea for a Kukkiwon certificate is lying about:

http://www.martialartssupermarket.com/index.cfm?action=moreinfo&itemid=9104

This certificate is fine if you don't tell folks it is a Kukkiwon, as it is not, merely a cheap imitation.  However, you can sign it.

Again, you can check your Kukkiwon status by going to their web site.

Dana


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## Marginal (Nov 12, 2008)

rchurch said:


> So, I guess it does come down to maybe I paid too much, but I'm not complaining.  It is an honor, as it should be for anyone, to have a grandmaster as your teacher.


I have a GM as my instructor. I still don't pay anywhere near as much as you do for that privilege. If you're happy, that is great. However, a having a GM as an instructor doesn't mean you have to pay through the nose.


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## terryl965 (Nov 12, 2008)

rbchurch I will only add this your GM is not a GrandMaster with the KKW, so she brought in a real GM anybody can all you have to do is pay the fee. Sorry not what you want to hear but it is what needs to be said.

On the bright side you and your son is happy and that is what matters here, best of luck and keep doing what makes you happy.


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## garrisons2 (Nov 12, 2008)

I saw one of the earlier posts on this thread that I interpreted to mean that between the half dozen to a dozen regulars here you would know all the GM in the US, Is that possible?   How many are there?   What do you know about mine Grandmaster Joon Lee, Oak Lawn, IL?


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## IcemanSK (Nov 12, 2008)

garrisons2 said:


> I saw one of the earlier posts on this thread that I interpreted to mean that between the half dozen to a dozen regulars here you would know all the GM in the US, Is that possible? How many are there? What do you know about mine Grandmaster Joon Lee, Oak Lawn, IL?


 

I think you might have misunderstood that post. None of us knows every GM in the US. Although, many of us on here have degrees of knowledge of GM Park, Hae Man (the GM who gave the OP's son his rank).

While I'm from the Chicago area originally, I'm sorry but I don't know your GM.


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## MasterWright (Nov 13, 2008)

I would hope that your degrees come from a reputable organization such as the World TKD Federation or the WKF etc . 

Institute (school) degrees are not recognized by these federations, although the instructor may have taught the students well. There was no money sent on their behaf to obtain an official degree. Therefore, this degree should not cost as much. Perhaps enough to compensate for the instructors time,bearing in mind that testings are less often as a black belt.

Just my opinion, we give both degrees to our students. Ours and the Kukkiwon which gives them the right to participate in the games that lead to the Olympics in our sport.


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## terryl965 (Nov 13, 2008)

garrisons2 said:


> I saw one of the earlier posts on this thread that I interpreted to mean that between the half dozen to a dozen regulars here you would know all the GM in the US, Is that possible? How many are there? What do you know about mine Grandmaster Joon Lee, Oak Lawn, IL?


 
I know abso;utely nothing but with rbchurch I was able to check the KKW and she is not KKW certified which means she is lieing about being an 8th certified by the KKW. Plan and simple but what I do know is this if he is happy than enjoy.


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## MasterWright (Nov 13, 2008)

Please read my last reply .

Oh Yes... I should say that at our school we charge $350.00 for a First or second Dan. That includes the Instute degree, a Kukkiwn certificate and a Nice new embroidered belt. 

Just wanted to include that last tidbit


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 13, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> For the record, I learn from a grandmaster and have received all of my ranks from a grandmaster, and I've spent far less than you have, and that includes lessons for my two sons.


Just a clarification:  My master is not a KKW 'grandmaster' (8th dan??)  He is KKW 6th dan.  He holds higher ranks in kumdo and hapkido (9th dan), but is grandmaster by virtue of owning two schools and having four masters (5th dan, one of whom was in the ROK special forces) and four 2nd dan instructors (myself being one of them) teaching in those schools.  

In addition, he is a 1992 Korean national champion (taekwondo) and was a hapkido instructor in the ROK special forces and a former body guard for Korean government officials.

In spite of this, he does not make a big deal out of his background or charge extra money for the priviledge of learning from him (his prices are middle of the road for our area).  In fact, he didn't have any of this on his website for quite a while and it took me getting to know him over several years of casual conversation to learn his background.

I don't bring this up to say how great my master is compared to anyone else's.  I bring it up to point out that one need not pay out copious amounts of money to receive quality instruction and should not be asked to pay more just because someone has a fancy title.  I have been blessed in my current school and blessed with some very fine instructors in my past, most of whom have not been anything close to eighth dan.  

One thing I have learned:

*The titles and rank do not make someone a better practitioner or a good teacher.*

They generally denote a level of adminstrative responsibility and contribution to the art.

Daniel


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not with KKW or WTF, so please excuse my ignorance on the matter:

But shouldn't there be a blanket testing fee for everyone to be certified as a blackbelt under the KKW?  I understand that instructors charge differently for testing fees and all, but I figured that since this is an organization, there should be a regularly set fee to pay for a BB testing for certain dans.  

For example:  X instructor may charge $100 per test for underbelts and $150 for blackbelts, while Y instructor may charge $75 for underbelts and $120 for blackbelts.  Add onto the testing fee for the instructor the blanket certification fee for the organization, and that's the entire cost of the testing.

Surely instructors can't have *that* much difference in what they charge per testings??

And I can respect having to pay a charge for being certified by an organization overseas, but I still fail to see the light on how a 1st dan gets added up to $7000.  I provided a breakdown of costs in an earlier post, and nobody really said one way or the other whether what I was figuring was off or not, but I just couldn't justify paying that much money for training for a 1st dan, even if it was from Gen. Choi himself.  

But again, this is just my opinion.  If the OP is happy with what was paid for and the school is open, then what does it really matter what the rest of us on this forum say or do?  Or what our opinions are of whether the GM is a fake or not?  The only opinion I could see mattering in regards to the GM's credibility is someone from the KKW organization.


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2008)

BrandonLucas said:


> I'm not with KKW or WTF, so please excuse my ignorance on the matter:
> 
> But shouldn't there be a blanket testing fee for everyone to be certified as a blackbelt under the KKW? I understand that instructors charge differently for testing fees and all, but I figured that since this is an organization, there should be a regularly set fee to pay for a BB testing for certain dans.


 
The KKW does have a set price for their certifications.  Anything above that set price goes to the instructor for his own use.  This is not different that any other service or product being sold. If someone is willing to pay for it, then I have no problem with it.  My only complaint is when an instructor will lie to the student about where the money goes.  Most of them like to blame KKW saying that they are the ones charging that much money which is false.  Either the instructor should be honest or tell the student that it is not their concern where the money goes.


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2008)

garrisons2 said:


> I saw one of the earlier posts on this thread that I interpreted to mean that between the half dozen to a dozen regulars here you would know all the GM in the US, Is that possible? How many are there? What do you know about mine Grandmaster Joon Lee, Oak Lawn, IL?


 
What is the name of the school.  I may know him or of him.  What is his full name?  I am out of Aurora, IL.


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> rbchurch I will only add this your GM is not a GrandMaster with the KKW, so she brought in a real GM anybody can all you have to do is pay the fee. Sorry not what you want to hear but it is what needs to be said.


Did I miss where he said she wasn't affiliated with KKW or gave her full name and date of birth? How did you find out she wasn't a true KKW GM?


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## IcemanSK (Nov 13, 2008)

My understanding from the previous thread was that rchurch's GM was a Kung Fu GM, not TKD. 

Also from the previous thread (if I recall correctly), she charged folks testing for various KKW dan ranks a total of between $27K-$32K to test in front of GM Park, Hae Man. I believe there were less than 7 people testing!

As I put it before, rchurch basically paid for Mick Jagger to perform a private party for his son. 

Our own Miles recently had GM Park come to his school for forms seminars. I'd be willing to bet he didn't have that kind of money in the transaction with GM Park.

Rchurch's GM pocketed an obscene amount of cash to test these few
people! 

Rchurch, it's your money to do with as you wish. I'm truly glad you are happy with the way they turned turned out. But you could have gotten the eact same experience for your son (including GM Park) for a fraction of what you & the few others were charged.

I wish you all the best with your school.


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## Lynne (Nov 13, 2008)

The black belt test fee (for 1st dan) at our school is either $200 or $250 (can't remember the exact amount, sorry).  The fee includes a new uniform, an embroidered belt and black belt certificate.  In addition, our Grandmaster and other masters travel to NY to sit on the testing panel.  I suppose that some travel fees come out of the $250,  Maybe.

I know the fees get higher the higher the belt level.  Not anything really outrageous though.  The rumor, and it's only a rumor folks, is that 4th dan (master) costs $2,000.  I'm not including tuition of course.  Tuition is very reasonable.

Just a sidenote - Grandmaster Byrne and Master Mitchell travel from Massachusetts to teach clinics at our school.  Those clinics are between $25.00 and $40.00.  GM Byrne is a 9th dan.  Master Mitchell is a 7th dan.


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## DMcHenry (Nov 13, 2008)

I just read the original post and saw the question "Am I being ripped off".

My answer, ABSOLUTLY!

She is full of crap - just taking advantage of you.

PS: the KKW 1st Dan cert fee is only $70.


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## Muwubu16858 (Nov 13, 2008)

> Originally posted by Lynne
> The rumor, and it's only a rumor folks, is that 4th dan (master) costs $2,000.


 
I can't quote the Kukiwon price, as I stopped being a member there at 2nd Dan, but I do know that in Tang Soo Do, many instructors do charge quite a bit for higher dans. I won't mention any names, but I know of a man who just dished out around $6000 or more for his 9th Dan with a Moo Duk Kwan senior.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 13, 2008)

$7000 for 1st Dan and $4000 more for 2nd.......thats Fn' crazy.  And the way it sounded from the post is he didn't even earn the belts (or learn the material).  He just wanted the belts so he could open a kung fu school but say he was teaching TKD because it brings in more students.  WOW.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 13, 2008)

Thats why I like kung fu.  I can open a school and not have to worry about politics.  I don't have anyone telling me how or what to teach, no annual fees, and no B.S..  I can teach however I want and whatever I want.....well you know what I mean.


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## bostonbomber (Nov 13, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats why I like kung fu.  I can open a school and not have to worry about politics.  I don't have anyone telling me how or what to teach, no annual fees, and no B.S..  I can teach however I want and whatever I want.....well you know what I mean.



I agree for the most part, but even in Kung Fu you're going to have people claim this lineage is better than that lineage, or that lineage does it wrong, blah, blah, blah.  Politics is ubiquitous my friend!


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## terryl965 (Nov 13, 2008)

miguksaram said:


> Did I miss where he said she wasn't affiliated with KKW or gave her full name and date of birth? How did you find out she wasn't a true KKW GM?


 
Because I was able to get her name and date of birth and had it verified though the KKW. Something are just better left alone, he is happy his son his happy and that is all that matters.


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## YoungMan (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm sure people who send their kids to school want to be assured that their teachers are certified through legitimate institutions and oversight boards, that the teacher isn't lying about his/her history and teaching whatever they want.
In Taekwondo as well, I want the parents who entrust me with their kids to know that I am who I say I am and that it can be verified.


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## Cirdan (Nov 14, 2008)

He had to pay 11 grand to get a 2nd Dan in TKD so he could teach Kung Fu?  
Am I the only one who is confused here?


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 14, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> He had to pay 11 grand to get a 2nd Dan in TKD so he could teach Kung Fu?
> Am I the only one who is confused here?


 
I'm confused on this as well.  It appears that he may be teaching TKD under false pretenses.  

Maybe the OP can clear that up for us as well.


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## YoungMan (Nov 14, 2008)

$11K would buy a lot better things than that.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 14, 2008)

Sounds like a Shaolin Do scam to me.  you know what they say.....Sin us the money and you can Hwang the diploma.


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## miguksaram (Nov 14, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Because I was able to get her name and date of birth and had it verified though the KKW. Something are just better left alone, he is happy his son his happy and that is all that matters.


 That's fine. I was just wondering.  I asked for that info earlier to do the same type of verification but looks like you got it.  Cool.


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## miguksaram (Nov 14, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats why I like kung fu. I can open a school and not have to worry about politics. I don't have anyone telling me how or what to teach, no annual fees, and no B.S.. I can teach however I want and whatever I want.....well you know what I mean.


 
There is just as much politics in Kungfu as there is in TKD.  A good example would be the Wing Chun vs. Ving Tsun camps.  We can even make it more personal.  Are you certified to teach?  Who certified you?  What are their credentials?  Which school or organization did your Sifu belong to?  My point is politics is everywhere no matter how much you want to avoid it.


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## rchurch (Nov 14, 2008)

Please go back and read post # 19, I thought I made it clear my son does not teach TKD although he is a 2nd Dan and earned that rank through very hard training one on one for a year with the GM.  I'm talking 4 - 6 days per week, 4 - 8 hours per day.  He was homeschooled, which allowed his training to fit in his schedule.  His first love is kung fu and that is what he teaches.  We have a very capable 4th dan and 3rd dan teaching TKD.  I am not scamming our students, I'm trying to give them the quality training that they deserve.


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## jks9199 (Nov 14, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> He had to pay 11 grand to get a 2nd Dan in TKD so he could teach Kung Fu?
> Am I the only one who is confused here?


Nope.

As I follow it, the TKD GM who's sponsoring the kung fu school felt that he needed to offer TKD to get kids into the school so that he can teach kung fu.  The kid who's family paid $11K for a TKD 2nd dan (anyone else wonder about blending Japanese and Korean while teaching Chinese arts?) is teaching the kung fu classes (no info on that background), while he's paying a 4th dan to teach the TKD.  (Why not just spend the $11K on salary for the guy who's teaching it anyway?)

Yeah... dizzying stuff!


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## DMcHenry (Nov 14, 2008)

I just hope he doesn't drink the koolaid....


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 14, 2008)

rchurch said:


> Please go back and read post # 19, I thought I made it clear my son does not teach TKD although he is a 2nd Dan and earned that rank through very hard training one on one for a year with the GM. I'm talking 4 - 6 days per week, 4 - 8 hours per day. He was homeschooled, which allowed his training to fit in his schedule. His first love is kung fu and that is what he teaches. We have a very capable 4th dan and 3rd dan teaching TKD. I am not scamming our students, I'm trying to give them the quality training that they deserve.


 
My issue is pretty much the same as JKS's reply:  Why does your son need to have the dan in TKD to have other instructors teach in the same school?  It would make more sense to have your son simply worry about teaching Kung Fu, and allow the other instructors that were hired to instruct the TKD side of it.

I realize that the most important issue is that you are happy with the decision that you made...but the problem is that by posting what has happened, you've opened up a "can of worms" so to speak.  If you're happy with your decision, then there is no need to justify anything that you've done or the GM has done.

However, by sharing this information with the other posters on this forum, it opens the situation up for scrutiny. 

There are several issues with the story, as far as I'm concerned:

1).  Your son wants to teach Kung Fu.  That's honorable, and I applaud his efforts in doing so.  But you were advised to offer TKD to get kids in the door of the school...again, this isn't such a bad idea.  There is also nothing wrong with training in multiple martial arts...people do it all the time, and I personally think it's a must for someone who's serious about martial arts.  But why does your son need to have rank in TKD in order to open a school that offers TKD *taught by someone else*?   

2).  Like I've said in previous posts, I don't know but about the KKW organization.  But, according to other posters on here who are familier with the organization, the testing fees only cost $70.  So, what you're saying is that the remaining $6,930 was used to pay for the year's worth of personal training for 1st dan?  Still seems pretty steep to me.  Just so that you're aware, according to others on this board, that the only amount going to the KKW organization is $70, and the rest is going directly to your GM.

Ultimately, your satisifaction is up to you.  I'm not trying to sound like a turd, and I appologize if that's the way this comes across.  I just hope that you're fully aware of the situation before you decide that it's the best thing.


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 14, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Nope.
> 
> (anyone else wonder about blending Japanese and Korean while teaching Chinese arts?) is teaching the kung fu classes (no info on that background), while he's paying a 4th dan to teach the TKD. (Why not just spend the $11K on salary for the guy who's teaching it anyway?)
> 
> Yeah... dizzying stuff!


 
Sounds like Shaolin Do.


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## KELLYG (Nov 14, 2008)

RCHURCH,

I am a little confused here.   Was the Black Belt money for all training and testing from white up or was it for one test only?


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## JadeDragon3 (Nov 14, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> RCHURCH,
> 
> I am a little confused here. Was the Black Belt money for all training and testing from white up or was it for one test only?


 
From what I gathered he wasn't even tested on the material, just given the belt.  Or am I wrong?


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 14, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> RCHURCH,
> 
> I am a little confused here. Was the Black Belt money for all training and testing from white up or was it for one test only?


 
The money was an all-inclusive thing, from what I understand...from white to black, training for one year and testing.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 14, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> From what I gathered he wasn't even tested on the material, just given the belt. Or am I wrong?


 
In post #50, he explained that his son worked for a year full time to earn the belt.


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## KELLYG (Nov 14, 2008)

30 to 36 hrs of one on one training with a GM.. O.K   Charge to defray the cost of having a Special Grand Master at your test O.K.  (thinking maybe he was from over seas?) O.K.  

I understand what the money was spent on..  But at the same time I feel that you can obtain the same quality of training and have lots of cash in the bank for Jr's college education!


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 14, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> 30 to 36 hrs of one on one training with a GM.. O.K Charge to defray the cost of having a Special Grand Master at your test O.K. (thinking maybe he was from over seas?) O.K.
> 
> I understand what the money was spent on.. But at the same time I feel that you can obtain the same quality of training and have lots of cash in the bank for Jr's college education!


 
This is basically what I (and I believe others here) are getting at.


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## rchurch (Nov 14, 2008)

I think everyone seems to be starting to understand the whole situation.  And the training was not from white belt up to BB in one year.  He had been studying some TKD but concentrating on kung fu for several years prior and was a red belt TKD when he started the intense training.  Its just that he lives and breathes kung fu.  That's why we have other TKD instructors, because he wants to now concentrate on kung fu only.  And he did test for all his belts.  None were given and I don't think the GM would give belts out.  If I recall he went through 9 different tests in about a 3 - 4 month period for his second dan.

Also keep in mind that in addition to the training and testing, the GM taught at the school an average of 2 nights per week for a year.  I didn't pay anything for this, it was included in the overall money I paid out.

So, as I have said before, if the money was only for 1st and 2nd dan ranking, it was outrageous.  But, include his training, teaching at the school for a year, and having GM Park present his belt, it starts looking better.


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## Cirdan (Nov 14, 2008)

What a waste.. that energy and money would have been much much better spent training in Kung Fu which he loves instead of spending 2000 hrs in an accelerated TKD program for purely commercial reasons.


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## d1jinx (Oct 5, 2010)

ITS ALIVE.... ITS ALIVE...

HAHAHAHAH

Its Alive!


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> ITS ALIVE.... ITS ALIVE...
> 
> HAHAHAHAH
> 
> Its Alive!


 
What the crap are you talking about?


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## ATC (Oct 5, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> What the crap are you talking about?


Ha ha ha...I can only assume this thread that get started some years ago. It looked dead, it was dead, but no...IT'S ALIVE!!!...again.


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## d1jinx (Oct 5, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> What the crap are you talking about?


 

Sorry Terry, Being spiteful :EG:... After wasting my time reading a related thread about someone getting ripped off, that by the way PISSED ME OFF cause I know the crap happens :angry:, I found out at the end I was reading a 2 year old posting that someone had Brought back to Life, only to defend, then complain about it being open...

Stupid me for not looking at the date... So I acted like a jerk and gave life to this one.

Funny thing about the "_Internets_", it comes back to haunt us... oh well, it will die soon! and hopefully its The True Death -vampfeed-

iratesku RIP.


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## msmitht (Oct 6, 2010)

Twin Fist said:


> they got charged ELEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS for 2nd degree.
> 
> thats all you need to know.


I do not care who tested the kid to whatever dan/poom level. I would not pay the founder of tkd (Gen Choi) 11 grand for a belt test!!! KKW is currently $90 us for a 2nd poom/Dan cert. That is one hell of a mark up.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2010)

Interesting thhing was I did a search for this GM and other than her own website could not find info. Is there a KKW dan registry site? As a KKW 8th she would be listed. 

Certainly, the guest Park Hae Man was well known.


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## terryl965 (Oct 7, 2010)

People will pay anything and thisa thread has been beat to death. Lets leave it alone because it is **** like this that makes any MA look bad.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting thhing was I did a search for this GM and other than her own website could not find info. Is there a KKW dan registry site? As a KKW 8th she would be listed.
> 
> Certainly, the guest Park Hae Man was well known.


Yes. Go to the Kukkiwon site http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/index.action and click on the one stop service tab. A drop down menu will appear. The first option on the menu is poom/dan check. 

The name must be entered as it appears on the certificate, so it may take more than one try unless the GM in question has his certificate displayed on her site.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2010)

Oh, also, you need the person's date of birth.

Daniel


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## IcemanSK (Oct 7, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Oh, also, you need the person's date of birth.
> 
> Daniel



And country of origin. I had a student I assumed was a US citizen, but I was wrong. When I put in the proper country of origin, it worked.


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## Master Dan (Oct 8, 2010)

*PUBLISHED COSTS MASTER DAN*
Good training is good training no matter what style or who taught you. There are no bad styles only bad teachers. That being said credibilty does matter and you may aswell invest in credible teachers who are good as opposed to a non credible teacher? All MA arts have roots like a big tree and the closer you get to the original root the better information you should recieve. When your young you have time to waste? but later on you will regret not making that time count if you need credentials.

My master had one of the first 9th Dan Ranks ever issued and was the most senior GM in all of Nth and Sth America and I cannot think of a single famous GM regardless of what style Korean or Japanese that did not know or love him. He was famous for a time in Judo he was in the World Martial Arts Hall of fame. As a master I always passed on all my testing fee's to him 100% as long as he lived out of respect and love but also his signature was a colectors item why not pass that value on to your students? Opinions are like some body apendages everyone has one? but here are few facts.

3rd dan Junior Master
4th and 5th Dan Master
6th and 7th Dan  Senior Master
8th and 9th Dan Grand Master 

I am seeing some new terms like Supreme Grand Master awarded after death and Senior Grand Master. I always knew they woudl have to come up with something to stay one step ahead of us?

You only need to go the Kukkiwon website with name and birth date to find the official ranking of your instructor. 

Pricing of rank testing (source our NW Tae Kwon Do Association)

10 tests from white to Brown 1st or 10 grades or Keubs

Yellow $35 Green $40 Green high $45 Blue $50 blue High $55 Red $60 Red High $65 Brown $70 Brown 2nd $75 Bronw 1st $80

For a total of $575 dollars 

Then 1st Dan test is $295.00 or Second Dan is $350
So you have a base cost of $900 to $1,000 dollars 

Testing is every 2 months you can train 6 days a week if you like.

Instruction monthly dues? varies from $50 to $250 a month so lets average at $100.00 

So lets say 20 months for 1st Dan and add time in rank for 2nd Dan of another 20 months.

Total reasonalbe cost to *1st Dan would be about $2,900.00* and total *cost to 2nd Dan would add another $3,100.00* plus the original $2,900 for a Grand total of $6,000.00 over 40 month period. All the while you have access to one of the worlds greatest instructors and doors opened to you because of that such as law enforcement, Corections, Military or any college in the world. It is a free market people can charge what they want but let the buyer beware? Thats why I teach for free I refuse to be part of that you cannot truly buy knowledge from anyone for any price you have to earn it they will give it to you if they love and respect you but not because you pay dues.


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