# Self Promotions



## Lotus Flower (Jan 13, 2005)

What a concept.  I'm on the legit end, 26 years of Training In Kempo in the Boston Area, ( Villari's Shaolin Kempo ) but where did it all start.  Two schools of thought.  
You own you're own company, aren't you the CEO and you take on what ever title you want.  As long as you can back it up on the mat.

Even the oldest, highest ranking GM had to start somewhere.  So  at some point in time, someone had to be the first to "Promote themselves"  Someone had to start it, right?  Even the oldest Soke.  Think about it.  It's like saying when did God begin to exist.  Close your eye's and picture that one.

Whatever line you come form, someone was the first in that line to be the GM and promote themselves.  So in essence, don't we all come form someone,somewhere that was self-promoted?

Just give me a plain, old fashioned BlackBelt, no stripes, no frills. Simplicity.

Just my thoughts,
Michael


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## TChase (Jan 13, 2005)

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> Just give me a plain, old fashioned BlackBelt, no stripes, no frills. Simplicity.
> Just my thoughts,
> Michael


I couldn't agree more.  Rank really doesn't mean much anymore the way it's just handed out.  I'd rather let my actions speak for me rather than a colored piece of cloth around my waist.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 14, 2005)

Total agreement from me, I have said before, I would rather be a white belt who can fight than a black belt who can't punch his way out of a paper bag...


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## clapping_tiger (Jan 14, 2005)

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> As long as you can back it up on the mat.
> 
> Just give me a plain, old fashioned BlackBelt, no stripes, no frills. Simplicity.
> 
> ...


Man, I have been thinking of this for some time. I can understand the need for ranking above Blackbelt. Do I agree with it? No, not really. Like you said, just give me my plain old fashioned Black Belt, and forget about degrees. Let your skill and active time in the art speak for you. If we were to just give up all degrees of Black and go to 1 GM for each style that would be fine with me.


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## The Kai (Jan 14, 2005)

For better or worse, once you spend years or decades as a Black Belt loyal to the same instructor (assuming there is more then one of you) the stripes give you a chain of command.  Would the Army go from Lt to Commander in Chief?  If your teacher spends 30+ years as a Black belt maybe running 2-3 clubs he should be ranked the same as a guy who invested 3 years?

Addotionally, there is more to it then what is on the mat.  Proper mechanics, Tactics, strategy, the mental and physiacl philosophy of the system, deeper understanding of everything from kihon, Kata, Kumite and kinesology, anatomy, physical reactions (yours and the attackers), meditation, history and lastly and most importantly his/hers years of experience-with all the attendant trial and error that saves me the work.  The difference is far from minor.  So we are ranked the same??
Is the system open for abuse-you bet you

BTW.  Some of these early guys who "self promoted", backed it up in every way (fighting, passing the knowledge).  And some guys who self promote today may wind up being held in high regards tommorrow.

Todd


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## koga ha (Jan 14, 2005)

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> What a concept. I'm on the legit end, 26 years of Training In Kempo in the Boston Area, ( Villari's Shaolin Kempo ) but where did it all start. Two schools of thought.
> You own you're own company, aren't you the CEO and you take on what ever title you want. As long as you can back it up on the mat.
> 
> Even the oldest, highest ranking GM had to start somewhere. So at some point in time, someone had to be the first to "Promote themselves" Someone had to start it, right? Even the oldest Soke. Think about it. It's like saying when did God begin to exist. Close your eye's and picture that one.
> ...


actually, you don't need a belt at all.  the belt system is suspect.


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## The Kai (Jan 14, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> actually, you don't need a belt at all. the belt system is suspect.


Of course the belt system is suspect.  By the same token it is a yardstick, a simple measurement system.  

If you all don't believe in rank above Black belt, why start there why have rank at all. Ahh, So we can what tell the deiffernence between you and the newbies, right??  It's not so different with the senior black belts
Todd


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## koga ha (Jan 14, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Of course the belt system is suspect. By the same token it is a yardstick, a simple measurement system.
> 
> If you all don't believe in rank above Black belt, why start there why have rank at all. Ahh, So we can what tell the deiffernence between you and the newbies, right?? It's not so different with the senior black belts
> Todd


how long have you been training and what belt are you?


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## The Kai (Jan 14, 2005)

25 years 
5th degree
And you?
Todd


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## koga ha (Jan 14, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> 25 years
> 5th degree
> And you?
> Todd


25 years means what?  you trained 1 hr. a month for 25 years?  see the problem?


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## Karazenpo (Jan 14, 2005)

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> What a concept.  I'm on the legit end, 26 years of Training In Kempo in the Boston Area, ( Villari's Shaolin Kempo ) but where did it all start.  Two schools of thought.
> You own you're own company, aren't you the CEO and you take on what ever title you want.  As long as you can back it up on the mat.
> 
> Even the oldest, highest ranking GM had to start somewhere.  So  at some point in time, someone had to be the first to "Promote themselves"  Someone had to start it, right?  Even the oldest Soke.  Think about it.  It's like saying when did God begin to exist.  Close your eye's and picture that one.
> ...



Good point, Michael. I hear ya.............


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## TChase (Jan 14, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> For better or worse, once you spend years or decades as a Black Belt loyal to the same instructor (assuming there is more then one of you) the stripes give you a chain of command. Would the Army go from Lt to Commander in Chief? If your teacher spends 30+ years as a Black belt maybe running 2-3 clubs he should be ranked the same as a guy who invested 3 years?
> 
> Addotionally, there is more to it then what is on the mat. Proper mechanics, Tactics, strategy, the mental and physiacl philosophy of the system, deeper understanding of everything from kihon, Kata, Kumite and kinesology, anatomy, physical reactions (yours and the attackers), meditation, history and lastly and most importantly his/hers years of experience-with all the attendant trial and error that saves me the work. The difference is far from minor. So we are ranked the same??
> Is the system open for abuse-you bet you
> ...


 
On the other end of the spectrum you have multiple level degreed black belts who can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.  So what does that say about the rank system?  I've seen it first hand...4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th degree black belts who can't fight and shouldn't be teaching.  And I've also seen 1st and 2nd degrees that could take your head off in a second and have a better grasp of the AK system than the high ranks I previously mentioned.  One mans black belt is another mans blue belt.  I have no problem with someone wearing their rank as long as they can back it up.  In fact anyone can wear any rank they want but their actions are what show me what their _*real*_ rank is.

As far as the chain of command goes...my teacher knows what rank I am, as does his teacher, and so do the people I train with.  As far as anyone else is concerned I really don't care, they can judge what rank I am based on my abilities.  The only thing I am concerned about is when the crap hits the fan am I going to be the one left standing?  That's my opinion on it anyway. 

-Tom


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## TChase (Jan 14, 2005)

There's one other thing I'd like to add to this.  As the wise Professor Shuras has said before, back in the day this type of thing was self regulated.  If I decided I was going to strap on an 8th degree everyone would either accept it because I had the "goods" to back it up, or I would be paid a "vist" and it would be decided right there and then if I was in fact I was an 8th degree.  No one called the cops or filed lawsuits...it was settled on the spot.  Those days are gone and it shows in the ranking system.


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## John Bishop (Jan 14, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> On the other end of the spectrum you have multiple level degreed black belts who can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. So what does that say about the rank system? I've seen it first hand...4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th degree black belts who can't fight and shouldn't be teaching. And I've also seen 1st and 2nd degrees that could take your head off in a second and have a better grasp of the AK system than the high ranks I previously mentioned. One mans black belt is another mans blue belt. I have no problem with someone wearing their rank as long as they can back it up. In fact anyone can wear any rank they want but their actions are what show me what their _*real*_ rank is.
> 
> As far as the chain of command goes...my teacher knows what rank I am, as does his teacher, and so do the people I train with. As far as anyone else is concerned I really don't care, they can judge what rank I am based on my abilities. The only thing I am concerned about is when the crap hits the fan am I going to be the one left standing? That's my opinion on it anyway.
> 
> -Tom


This question comes up quite often.  Like ability to fight is the only thing that matters in the martial arts.  
Most traditional martial artists don't acheive 8th,9th,10th degrees until they're past their 50s-60s, with 25-45 years of experience. So it makes no sense to say they don't deserve their ranks because a 25-30 year old black belt could physically beat them up.  
Our seniors are the one's who teach us, counsel us, and propagate our arts.  They are the grandfathers and fathers in our system.  They gained their positions through decades of training and teaching.  
Like anything thing in life.  The harder and longer you work for something, the more value it has.  
If someone is in a system, school, or organization that has low requirements for promotion, that dosen't mean every system, school, or organization has.


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## TChase (Jan 14, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This question comes up quite often. Like ability to fight is the only thing that matters in the martial arts.
> Most traditional martial artists don't acheive 8th,9th,10th degrees until they're past their 50s-60s, with 25-45 years of experience. So it makes no sense to say they don't deserve their ranks because a 25-30 year old black belt could physically beat them up.
> Our seniors are the one's who teach us, counsel us, and propagate our arts. They are the grandfathers and fathers in our system. They gained their positions through decades of training and teaching.
> Like anything thing in life. The harder and longer you work for something, the more value it has.
> If someone is in a system, school, or organization that has low requirements for promotion, that dosen't mean every system, school, or organization has.


I absolutely agree with you.  The seniors you speak of earned their ranks through decades of hard work and in their day they set the standard.  It doesn't get any more legitimate than that.  What I'm talking about are the ones with little training and little skill that go on award themselves high ranks or those that hand out rank like it's nothing.  To me, that is disrespectful to those that trained hard with years of blood and sweat to get where they are.  And that's why I believe it's better to be judged by what you can do or what you have done, not what belt happens to be sitting around your waist.

I probably got a little off the subject on my last post but this is a subject that always hits a nerve for me.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 15, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with you.  The seniors you speak of earned their ranks through decades of hard work and in their day they set the standard.  It doesn't get any more legitimate than that.  What I'm talking about are the ones with little training and little skill that go on award themselves high ranks or those that hand out rank like it's nothing.  To me, that is disrespectful to those that trained hard with years of blood and sweat to get where they are.  And that's why I believe it's better to be judged by what you can do or what you have done, not what belt happens to be sitting around your waist.
> 
> I probably got a little off the subject on my last post but this is a subject that always hits a nerve for me.



Tom, excellent point!


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## The Kai (Jan 15, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> 25 years means what? you trained 1 hr. a month for 25 years? see the problem?


Actually I was one of sensei's "dojo rats" ,always underfoot-at one point actuaaly lived in the dojo!  I have competed in Wis, Ill, Oh, Ind and Minn.  I get your point, but my point is why not scrap the entire belt system??
BTW How long have you been involved?
Todd


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## Bill Lear (Jan 15, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> "but my point is why not scrap the entire belt system??"



I would say that the belt system, when used correctly, is a good way to determine how long someone has been *AT* the art vs. how long someone has been *IN* the art.


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## TChase (Jan 15, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Tom, excellent point!


Thanks Joe, I hope you don't mind me paraphrasing you in my previous post.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 16, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I would say that the belt system, when used correctly, is a good way to determine how long someone has been *AT* the art vs. how long someone has been *IN* the art.


Good point, but even that isn't always the case, there are some who just cheat themselves (and worse still their students) by looking more towardas the rank than towards the associated skills for that rank.


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## John Bishop (Jan 16, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Good point, but even that isn't always the case, there are some who just cheat themselves (and worse still their students) by looking more towardas the rank than towards the associated skills for that rank.


There are phonies and B.S. artists is all walks of life.  
You can buy mail order PHD's, be ordained as a minister by mail, or receive many other types of credentials without possessing much more skill then it takes to write a check.
If you stay in the martial arts long enough you'll know who's for real, and who's not.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 16, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> There are phonies and B.S. artists is all walks of life.
> You can buy mail order PHD's, be ordained as a minister by mail, or receive many other types of credentials without possessing much more skill then it takes to write a check.
> If you stay in the martial arts long enough you'll know who's for real, and who's not.


I'm not disputing that, in my short time in the martial arts, I have already met several people who were X Dan or Sifu this etc. who I am pretty sure that I could have flattened even before I started studying...
Best wishes
Simon


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## getgoin (Jan 16, 2005)

I am in favor of scrapping the whole belt system. I have been making plans to do so for sometime now. It does little more than create politics in the school and thats not needed. Everyone know who came before them and who came after them. Just as everyone know who's better at what in every school. When you go to work your bosses and supervisors don't wear belts or special uniforms (outside of miltary and LE) to single themselves out. But everyone knows who they are and act accordingly when they are around.

I am leaning to the idea of testing people for Black because they are ready to test not because how long they have been with me, like some school do. I know of some schools that test like clockwork. For some it may be four years, others it may be 10. I figure I'll test them, then tell them to keep it in there bag because they may have to wear it one day.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 16, 2005)

getgoin said:
			
		

> I am in favor of scrapping the whole belt system. I have been making plans to do so for sometime now. It does little more than create politics in the school and thats not needed. Everyone know who came before them and who came after them. Just as everyone know who's better at what in every school. When you go to work your bosses and supervisors don't wear belts or special uniforms (outside of miltary and LE) to single themselves out. But everyone knows who they are and act accordingly when they are around.
> 
> I am leaning to the idea of testing people for Black because they are ready to test not because how long they have been with me, like some school do. I know of some schools that test like clockwork. For some it may be four years, others it may be 10. I figure I'll test them, then tell them to keep it in there bag because they may have to wear it one day.


So what are you going to tell your students when there's going to be no rank?     How do you separate yourself from the students?    Are you going to wear the Black Belt?    Where is the incentive to grow?

DarK LorD


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## Karazenpo (Jan 16, 2005)

TChase said:
			
		

> Thanks Joe, I hope you don't mind me paraphrasing you in my previous post.



No, of course not Tom!


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## Karazenpo (Jan 16, 2005)

I wouldn't get rid of the belt ranking system either, people are goal orientated and the belt system is perfect for this. As a matter of fact, it breaks things down into short term goals rather then looking at the big picture and it aids the instructors in organizing their classes and curriculum. If done properly it can be an asset to any school, again, if done properly. Yes, it's true at civillian jobs, but when you walk by the boss's office I'm sure there is a name and title on his door signifying his 'rank' per se or 'position' within the company and I'm sure this carries over to all in-house memos and so forth. I'll go with you about promoting when you feel the student is ready rather than basing it on his/her time in grade alone. Time in grade is a contributing factor but knowing the proper curriculum at a specific skill level is very important also. Just my opinion.


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## GAB (Jan 16, 2005)

Hi all,

I agree with what most of you are saying. The right and left of it if I may.I think the best way to look at it is from a center position, Just like MA.

So with that, you need guide lines. Belts are guide lines and time in grade is a guide line. Most of us do not, eat, live, and breath Martial Arts. 

There are only a couple of them that I know of. I have heard rumors, but then I don't know them. I think everyone on this board will know someone like that, but the rest are not so involved. 

M. A. is about discipline and accountability, I think you will agree, so we need a yardstick and belts are the way to go.

This is not all about fighting. It is about knowledge, and the ability to demonstrate ones skill, me I am just an old white belt. 

Bet I have been in more fights then most of you though. So does that make me a black belt? NO.... 
Regards, Gary


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## kenpo tiger (Jan 16, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This question comes up quite often. Like ability to fight is the only thing that matters in the martial arts.
> Most traditional martial artists don't acheive 8th,9th,10th degrees until they're past their 50s-60s, with 25-45 years of experience. So it makes no sense to say they don't deserve their ranks because a 25-30 year old black belt could physically beat them up.
> Our seniors are the one's who teach us, counsel us, and propagate our arts. They are the grandfathers and fathers in our system. They gained their positions through decades of training and teaching.
> Like anything thing in life. The harder and longer you work for something, the more value it has.
> If someone is in a system, school, or organization that has low requirements for promotion, that dosen't mean every system, school, or organization has.


Exactly.  'Rap on, brother, rap on!':asian:


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## getgoin (Jan 16, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> So what are you going to tell your students when there's going to be no rank? How do you separate yourself from the students? Are you going to wear the Black Belt? Where is the incentive to grow?
> 
> DarK LorD


I haven't put my belt on in almost a year and a half. Well, once when I went to my Prof. school, he asked me to wear it. People don't seem to have trouble seperating me from students. And the incentive to grow is within them, grow in thier abilities and knowledge. Nothing I put on them will give them that incentive if they don't have it in the first place. Plus I know a lot of people who quit after getting thier black belt because most people look at it as the end of the road. They can defend themselves and have a piece of cloth to prove it.:wink2: 

I don't think I will tell my students anything. Most of them don't wear thier belt now anyhow and I don't tell them to put one on. I figure to give it time and it most likely will faise itself out. If the student wants to wear a belt, thats fine to, I don't make a big deal out of it either way.


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## koga ha (Jan 18, 2005)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> So what are you going to tell your students when there's going to be no rank? How do you separate yourself from the students? Are you going to wear the Black Belt? Where is the incentive to grow?
> 
> DarK LorD


there is a rank; it's called knowledge.  separate yourself by wearing  a different color.  the incentive to grow should come from the student.  you are simply a guide.  

for $99.95 i'll say more! :lol:


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## Jeff Boler (Jan 26, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> there is a rank; it's called knowledge.  separate yourself by wearing  a different color.  the incentive to grow should come from the student.  you are simply a guide.
> 
> for $99.95 i'll say more! :lol:



Koga Ha (Is there a real name here?),

I find your viewpoints on this subject interesting.  I am under the assumption that you are a student of Nimr Hassan, of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Kempo?

If this is the case, perhaps you can enlighten me.  How much time did Nimr Hassan (aka Terry Lee) spend in actual training with James Mitose?  How much time did he spend training with William Durbin of Kiyojute Ryu?  You see, I think your opinions on this subject may have something to do with the fact that Hassan spent less than a year training under Mitose (before he was incarcerated for murder), and was given a 5th Dan from Durbin, who in turn, added the Koga Ha curriculum to his own system.  So, I don't think the idea of EARNED RANK means much here, especially when it is GIVEN so freely.

I was always under the impression that RANK, was basically used for goal setting.  Once you reach one goal, you move forward to the another goal, and so on, and so forth.


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## Rob Broad (Jan 26, 2005)

I remember back when I was a beginner a Black Belt meant a lot.  Then the expansion of TKD struck North America back in the early 80's and they were handing out Black Belts to anyone to get the publicity.  Schools had to either find a way to compete with this onslaugth or go under.  Unfortunately many of the schools that decided to try and compete lessened their standards, so now you have a bunch of uber-ranks that can't fight their way out of a wet paperbag.

I remember seeing a lot of good schools go under because  they could not compete with the flast track that was set up by their competition.  And to the beginner who knows nothing about the arts, there is no difference between TKD, Kenpo, Wing Chun or any other style, the only difference they see is a 18 - 24 month journey to Back Belt compared to a period that is usually twice as long.


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## Seabrook (Jan 26, 2005)

One needs only to go on ebay on a weekly basis to find "Grandmaster Roman's" pay me the big bucks and I will give you a black belt (no experience necessary) program. 

The scary thing is that beginners starting out at a club would have no idea their instructor is not legitimate. He/she may only have 12 months experience in the martial arts, but hey, they would have a signed black belt certificate from Grandmaster Roman, recognizing the instructor as an AK black belt. 

It's people like him that give EPAK a bad name.


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## Seabrook (Jan 26, 2005)

On another note, why does Roman call himself a "Grandmaster"? My understanding is that he is an 8th degree? 

Jamie Seabrook
http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## The Kai (Jan 26, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Koga Ha (Is there a real name here?),
> 
> I find your viewpoints on this subject interesting. I am under the assumption that you are a student of Nimr Hassan, of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Kempo?
> 
> ...


Durbin's whole lineage is a little "fishy".


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## Danjo (Jan 26, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I remember back when I was a beginner a Black Belt meant a lot. Then the expansion of TKD struck North America back in the early 80's and they were handing out Black Belts to anyone to get the publicity. Schools had to either find a way to compete with this onslaugth or go under. Unfortunately many of the schools that decided to try and compete lessened their standards, so now you have a bunch of uber-ranks that can't fight their way out of a wet paperbag.
> 
> I remember seeing a lot of good schools go under because they could not compete with the flast track that was set up by their competition. And to the beginner who knows nothing about the arts, there is no difference between TKD, Kenpo, Wing Chun or any other style, the only difference they see is a 18 - 24 month journey to Back Belt compared to a period that is usually twice as long.


Yes, I remember when the TKD expansion wildfire took off. I remember around then when some twelve year old came to me and said that he was a black belt and I called him a liar. His mom got really mad at me and told me that he was indeed a black belt etc. and I just walked away in dismay, I had never heard of such a thing. Now, sadly, it's old hat. Now titles mean nothing unless you know where they came from. I remember in the 70's and early 80's that if you told another karateka that you had a brown belt or black belt, that meant a sparring match as soon as you could find the time and space. It wasn't to be mean, but rathe just to see and have some fun. But you  didn't dare say that unless you could back it up.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 26, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yes, I remember when the TKD expansion wildfire took off. I remember around then when some twelve year old came to me and said that he was a black belt and I called him a liar. His mom got really mad at me and told me that he was indeed a black belt etc. and I just walked away in dismay, I had never heard of such a thing. Now, sadly, it's old hat. Now titles mean nothing unless you know where they came from. I remember in the 70's and early 80's that if you told another karateka that you had a brown belt or black belt, that meant a sparring match as soon as you could find the time and space. It wasn't to be mean, but rathe just to see and have some fun. But you  didn't dare say that unless you could back it up.



Geez, you're right Dan, I remember those things too..............but things have changed, oh well.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 26, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Koga Ha (Is there a real name here?),
> 
> I find your viewpoints on this subject interesting.  I am under the assumption that you are a student of Nimr Hassan, of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Kempo?
> 
> ...



A year is giving him a lot of credit, Jeff. I believe Sigung John Bishop once posted that Terry Lee  (Hassan) studied under Mitose for about four weeks. I'm sure John will comment when he reads this.


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## John Bishop (Jan 26, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Koga Ha (Is there a real name here?),
> 
> I find your viewpoints on this subject interesting. I am under the assumption that you are a student of Nimr Hassan, of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Kempo?
> 
> If this is the case, perhaps you can enlighten me. How much time did Nimr Hassan (aka Terry Lee) spend in actual training with James Mitose? .


Well, according to his own testimony at Mitose's trial, Terry Lee trained with him Mitose 7 weeks.


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## GAB (Jan 26, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> A year is giving him a lot of credit, Jeff. I believe Sigung John Bishop once posted that Terry Lee (Hassan) studied under Mitose for about four weeks. I'm sure John will comment when he reads this.


Hi Joe,

There is such a complete package of misinformation and confusion that it is hard to really get to the bottom of the controversy of Terry Lee and his association with Mitose.

Lets take for example the idea that James Mitose brainwashed Terry Lee.
OK, How long does it take to brainwash another human being? 

The person is learning your technique and forms for a couple of days and the other days of the week you have him in a vat of warm water suspended with no light and no communication to disorient him??? (much sarcasm here)....

There is quite a bit of information that he passed on to Hanshi Bruce, as in a couple of forms that he learned from Mitose.

Maybe he really did not kill and attempt to kill these persons, he plea bargined with his attorney Johnny Cochran as his mouthpiece.

Something similar here regarding O.J. and Terry Lee, Same attorney, same defense. Bigotry and human rights issues boil down to the same on these.

Both innocent or taken advantage of by person or persons known or unknown. 

Hardly anyone seems to remember that James, his wife and his son were all charged with the same crime. 

Because of his own antics and display to the court and jurors, they were so angry they only convicted James on the crime. The man should have been given an oscar for his performance to lead the case away from his family.

I understand there are several books in the works as we speak about this whole sordid affair. And maybe a documentary that has not been completed or maybe even started other then a few cursory investigations...

Some know that part of the plea bargin for Terry Lee, is he could not talk about his part in this, so... WE all speculate and have our agendas....

Regards, Gary


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## The Kai (Jan 26, 2005)

_Something similar here regarding O.J. and Terry Lee, Same attorney, same defense. Bigotry and human rights issues boil down to the same on these.

Both innocent or taken advantage of by person or persons known or unknown_.

Of course this is a attempt at irony/else we're to believe that OJ is innocent??

Todd


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## GAB (Jan 26, 2005)

Hi all,

Self promotions have been around for a very long time in martial arts. People break away and start their own agenda. If it was not this way, it would stagnate and probably have more verbal wars then we have now.

Some are leaders and some are followers, it has been this way for a very long time. 
Have you noticed that in the arts very few are left with the throne, (belt) and even then you still have chaos. 

It reminds me of history regarding the rise and fall of empires. Must be the inherent quality of man.

Brutus comes to mind...

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB (Jan 26, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> _Something similar here regarding O.J. and Terry Lee, Same attorney, same defense. Bigotry and human rights issues boil down to the same on these._
> 
> _Both innocent or taken advantage of by person or persons known or unknown_.
> 
> ...


Todd,

There is a fellow LAPD that was involved in the O. J. case that I am going to drop a dime on, that is a terrific investigator.

He has also done some other investigative work that came to rise in recent years about the murder of a young girl back east. Got a lot of publicity.

I am not so sure there is enough money in this to warrant his proven ability, but what the heck, it is only a dime of my time..

I have his book " Murder in Brentwood" you ought to read it.

That is another case where I know a lot of the players. 
Plus I have talked about it with them quite extensivly. 

Pretty interesting and and pretty tangled also.

All is not what it seems in black and white...Reminds me of newspapers and there ability to construe the truth. 

Of course none of it has to do with money, fame and corruption of the truth.

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai (Jan 26, 2005)

So Oj is really out there scouring all the golf courses in the kland looking for the real killers?

Todd


----------



## Shogun (Jan 26, 2005)

To "back it up on the mat" can be hard in some martial arts. I do grappling so to test my skill someone only has to spar with me and see, and I get challenged a lot. (its funny too because in BJJ, I dont even have my blue belt!)it can also get difficult to prove your technique in,say, forms. every lineage, and even different teachers from the same lineage do things differently. IMO, if people like your stuff and follow your lead, thats all that matters right? even if some people ignore your very existence.....?

kyle


----------



## koga ha (Jan 26, 2005)

interesting comments...

you have voiced your half truths, but in short time the whole truth will be known.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 26, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> interesting comments...
> 
> you have voiced your half truths, but in short time the whole truth will be known.



Half truths?  Perhaps you can explain which half-truth you are referring to.  It's already been stated that Hassan spent less than 7 weeks with Mitose, and I was a student of Durbin when he met Hassan.

That being stated, what half-truth?


----------



## Bammx2 (Jan 26, 2005)

I have been invloved in the MA for over 30yrs and haven't recieved

a BB or "degree" in well over 20yrs.
I have total respect to those who stay dedicate to thier art and recieve these awards...without them...we wouldn't have what we have now.
Unfortunately...I can't progress any further in rank because I'm not on any "register".
I have a wealth of knowledge that I acquired by getting up off my butt and achieving myself! I have traveled ALOT in my life and never had a chance to stay anywhere long enuff to get a BB since the age of 16, but I have managed to train in something everywhere I have ever gone.
I teach,I have done seminars and I can hold my own in almost any conversation and demonstration as well as application due to the fact I STILL study.
I do NOT pretend to know everything and make no bones about it.
But by God..I know more than a lot of people out there!
But now...due to politics, I can't get any further than 1st dan in the w.a.k.o/a.m.a because I don't have anyone from my "past" to varify my qualifications.
Some say I "self propmoted",but I proved myself to 4 other BB's in the same organisations through sharing what I have learned and proving what I know in a period of over 2yrs.
 I would also add...I have been in the security industry for over 20yrs,including bouncing and event organisation in a couple of different countries.
I even ended up doing a seminar or 2 for THIER BB's in self-defense tactics!
BUT, now, I can't go any further cause no one knows what "style" to test me on and to be honest,I only want to go further for the benefits of my students...not myself.
While we're at it....
any suggestions?


----------



## Karazenpo (Jan 26, 2005)

Well, in my professional and personal opinion, O.J. is as guilty as you can get, I would never take my kids to Michael Jackson's 'Neverland' estate for a weekend, I wouldn't trust Terry Lee with my grandmother & grandfather (especially after the beating he gave that eldery woman, not to mention the murder of her husband) and I certainly wouldn't buy a used car from James M. Mitose, other than all that, I agree totally............

PS: This has nothing to do with your postings, Bammx2, just my feelings on the Mitose/Lee Murder, Extortion and Conspiracy findings.


----------



## GAB (Jan 26, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Well, in my professional and personal opinion, O.J. is as guilty as you can get, I would never take my kids to Michael Jackson's 'Neverland' estate for a weekend, I wouldn't trust Terry Lee with my grandmother & grandfather (especially after the beating he gave that eldery woman, not to mention the murder of her husband) and I certainly wouldn't buy a used car from James M. Mitose, other than all that, I agree totally............
> 
> 
> Hi Joe,
> ...


----------



## GAB (Jan 26, 2005)

Hi Bammx2,

You are in a situation that is only important to you at this time. As for your students I am sure if they feel you have what they want they will stick.

It sounds like the time to promote ones self has come. Or not..The decision is yours...

Not everyone is going to be satisfied so you have to satisfy yourself...

That is my thought, based on what you have said on the post I just read.

Take a bucket, fill it with water, place your hand into it up to your wrist.
Now take your hand out of the bucket, the hole that remains is the amount you will be missed. 

Hope this helps... 

Kai, I had to do it, I havn't said a riddle in awhile...The last I heard O.J.'s golf game has gone to hell, guess he will find it when he gets there.
Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo (Jan 26, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Karazenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Bammx2 (Jan 26, 2005)

GAB,

 Thanks for your response and advice.
I guess my problem now is not just for me...I'm happy with what I have done and where I'm at.
It's actually for my students. There are some I do know want to be "officially" recognised for what they have achieved so they can continue on.
 The only problem is....I'm a little to honest and fell rather froggy with self-promotion. It's that southern humbleness in me!
Thank you again:asian:


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

Let me say this about Durbin.  I have no problem with Durbin whatsoever.  Due to his religious convictions, he decided that he should give Hassan a second chance, and they have remained good friends until this day.  I have no problem with that whatsoever.  I left Durbin because I felt the truth behind the story was somewhat concealed for many years.  I didn't learn of Hassan's true identity from somone inside the ryu, I learned from someone on the internet.

That being said, I have, and will continue to have, a problem with a convicted murderer teaching martial arts.  Although I understand that Hassan has done some great things for his community, that does not make up for past crimes.  And the fact that he trained with someone less than seven weeks, leaves me with a great many questions as to why he would call himself a hanshi, shihan, or even sensei for that matter.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

Kinda like Durbin himself with his grandious claims,  both of them are good at making up history to suit thier needs

Todd


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Let me say this about Durbin. I have no problem with Durbin whatsoever. Due to his religious convictions, he decided that he should give Hassan a second chance, and they have remained good friends until this day. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I left Durbin because I felt the truth behind the story was somewhat concealed for many years. I didn't learn of Hassan's true identity from somone inside the ryu, I learned from someone on the internet.
> 
> That being said, I have, and will continue to have, a problem with a convicted murderer teaching martial arts. Although I understand that Hassan has done some great things for his community, that does not make up for past crimes. And the fact that he trained with someone less than seven weeks, leaves me with a great many questions as to why he would call himself a hanshi, shihan, or even sensei for that matter.


You know, I read that in Europe there is a tradition that when one fails publicly and brings disgrace on one's self and family, that the person tends to retire from public life and devote his or her time to charity in a low-key almost invisible way. They shun the limelight and are essentially never heard from again. If the system released Terry Lee, then they released him. However, for this guy to continue to seek the limelight and teach publicly is digraceful to put it mildly. Of course, if he wants to be true to the Japanese heritage of Mitose etc., he could always take the Japanese method of dealing with personal disgrace


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I didn't learn of Hassan's true identity from somone inside the ryu, I learned from someone on the internet.


from the net, well it must be true...:lol:


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> from the net, well it must be true...:lol:



That's a great dodge tactic.  Unfortunately for you, you didn't come up with anything stating otherwise.

Yes, I  learned of Hassan's real identity from a few people on the net, one being Bruce Juchnik.  Others have stepped up to the plate as well.

So feel free to continue your "One-line" sarcastic responses.  Yet while you sit there laughing, with only the ability to come up with these type of posts, you remain the student of a convicted murderer.  How does that make you feel?


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> That's a great dodge tactic. Unfortunately for you, you didn't come up with anything stating otherwise.
> 
> Yes, I learned of Hassan's real identity from a few people on the net, one being Bruce Juchnik. Others have stepped up to the plate as well.
> 
> So feel free to continue your "One-line" sarcastic responses. Yet while you sit there laughing, with only the ability to come up with these type of posts, you remain the student of a convicted murderer. How does that make you feel?


juchnik...:lol:  this keeps getting better and better.

i'm a student, so you tell me.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

Koga_ha

Is your attempts to be cryptic a convient way to hide something.  If you got something to say, well say it-No "Hints", riddles or half comments
I think that might make for easier conversation
later Ko
Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

Well this is interesting, because I think "Koga Ha' (who can't use his real name for some reason.  Must be a Ninja thing.) is debating whether or not Hassan is in fact Terry Lee.  Are you issuing a denial here?

Your cryptic little statements only make me laugh at you.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> juchnik...:lol: this keeps getting better and better.
> 
> i'm a student, so you tell me.


This guy is a troll.


----------



## Ray (Jan 27, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I remember back when I was a beginner a Black Belt meant a lot. [...]the beginner who knows nothing about the arts, there is no difference between TKD, Kenpo, Wing Chun or any other style, the only difference they see is a 18 - 24 month journey to Back Belt compared to a period that is usually twice as long.


That reminds me of when my friend and I started training in 1985.  Heck, we figured we'd get black belts in 6 months, open our own schools and make a lot of money.

By 1989 I didn't care about getting a black belt, I just wanted to get good.  

My middle-aged friend left the factory, became a cop and got to use what the Kenpo he had learned; I got a part time job arresting shop-lifters so I could use what I learned.

In 1992 I left that area.  Because there were no Kenpo schools around, I enrolled me and my sons in TKD.  My oldest boy quickly started calling it "Take my dough" instead of "Tae kwon do" because he didn't see as much value in TKD as Kenpo. (No, offense to TKD stylists as I have seen some very good ones).

Ah, heck, I don't suppose I have a point to this; Just an old man's ramblings...


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Well this is interesting, because I think "Koga Ha' (who can't use his real name for some reason. Must be a Ninja thing.) is debating whether or not Hassan is in fact Terry Lee. Are you issuing a denial here?
> 
> Your cryptic little statements only make me laugh at you.


actually, i wanted to debat a move that seemed silly to me and provide an alternative.

you and others on this board like to attack the charater of individuals because of what you heard, seen, or stumbled across on the net.  and now you want to suck me in too...:lol:  

are you sure you didn't get your "belt" off the net too? :rofl:


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> This guy is a troll.


you too?  another meaingless comment.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> actually, i wanted to debat a move that seemed silly to me and provide an alternative.



Well that is strange, because the thread is about SELF PROMOTION.  I think my questions fit, due to the fact that Mr. Hassan spent 7 weeks with Mitose, and is all of a sudden, a grand master.



> you and others on this board like to attack the charater of individuals because of what you heard, seen, or stumbled across on the net.  and now you want to suck me in too...:lol:



Or, what I have personal experience and knowledge in.  As stated previously, I was student of Durbin's for twelve years.  I'm well aware of Mr. Hassan, as well as his past.  Again, are you denying that Hassan is in fact Lee, and was charged with this crime?



> are you sure you didn't get your "belt" off the net too? :rofl:



No, I earned my belts.  Mr. Hassan spent a weekend with Mr. Durbin, and BINGO....5th Dan in Kiyojute Ryu.  Mr. Hassan also returned the favor to Mr. Durbin.  So it's the people you associate with that are known for just "handing out rank and titles."

At least come up with a good arguement.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Well that is strange, because the thread is about SELF PROMOTION. I think my questions fit, due to the fact that Mr. Hassan spent 7 weeks with Mitose, and is all of a sudden, a grand master.
> 
> 
> Or, what I have personal experience and knowledge in. As stated previously, I was student of Durbin's for twelve years. I'm well aware of Mr. Hassan, as well as his past. Again, are you denying that Hassan is in fact Lee, and was charged with this crime?
> ...


right, self-promotions, i was looking at another thread.  anyway, there you go again making statements like you know...that's a bad habit.

just so i have this clear...you're telling me that hassan is not a true grandmaster (old title)?

i know for a fact that nimr is terry and about the crime.  and i know for a fact that my information doesn't come from the net like your info.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

Ko

Jeff Boler stated both who he is and what he saw, what about you?  I can't help but notice that your sentinces are getting shorter and shorter Ko?  Well< Ko is hassan a grandmaster in your opinion, how long did he train with Mitose?  are there other arts in his study, do you know the backgrounds?


Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> right, self-promotions, i was looking at another thread.  anyway, there you go again making statements like you know...that's a bad habit.



Uh..ok.



> just so i have this clear...you're telling me that hassan is not a true grandmaster (old title)?



What makes a Grand Master?  What does that title mean?  What I am saying is that someone with only 7 weeks of instruction cannot have learned much, or....there simply wasn't much to learn.  That does not keep people from saying that have multiple high dan ranks and titles.  I know that after spending one weekend with William Durbin, he obtained a 5th dan.  Do I think that he deserved that title?  Absolutely not.



> i know for a fact that nimr is terry and about the crime.  and i know for a fact that my information doesn't come from the net like your info.



What, exactly, is wrong with information obtained from the internet?  Because of the internet....I was able to correspond directly with Bruce Juchnik, and several other members of the Kenpo community, all of which gave me the low down on Mr. Hassan.

And since you are a student of Hassan, I think it's fair to say that you know only what Hassan wants you to know.  As stated previously, Durbin acted like Hassan and Lee were two totally different people for the longest time.  Once questions were asked....well, here we are.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Ko
> 
> Jeff Boler stated both who he is and what he saw, what about you? I can't help but notice that your sentinces are getting shorter and shorter Ko? Well< Ko is hassan a grandmaster in your opinion, how long did he train with Mitose? are there other arts in his study, do you know the backgrounds?
> 
> ...


jeff stated what he got off the net.  do i need to have long sentences to say something?

hassan is a living legend and that's not opinion, that's fact.  trained numerous hours.  we have the complete system and you got whatever it is you got.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> jeff stated what he got off the net.  do i need to have long sentences to say something?
> 
> hassan is a living legend and that's not opinion, that's fact.  trained numerous hours.  we have the complete system and you got whatever it is you got.



Darnit, I spewed water all over my monitor after reading this....

What I got off the net?  Technically, what I got off of the net was email addresses and phone numbers.  That allowed me to contact various individuals personally.



> *hassan is a living legend and that's not opinion, that's fact.  trained numerous hours.  we have the complete system and you got whatever it is you got.*



Living legend?  Fact?  Uh no, what Hassan is a convicted murderer, and that is fact.  Go get the court documents, and see for yourself.  Did he give himself this title of living legend?  What makes someone a "living legend" anyway.  You seem to forget that he is / was a criminal.  Can you be rehabilitated?  Sure.  I think some of the things Hassan has done to his community is wonderful.  He's still a murderer though.  Under the legal definition.

You have the complete system?  The complete system he learned in seven weeks?  What you have are delusions.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

Let me make this clear.  I have no problems with Hassan, or Durbin.  I think Hassan committed the acts that he was charged with.  I believe he may, in fact, have been rehabilitated.

I do not think that convicted murderers should be allowed to teach martial arts.  I do not think that Jeffery Dahmer should have been allowed to teach a cooking class, and I think Hassan should have been restricted from teaching.  That's my opinion only.

If you like the level of instruction that Hassan provides, then that's great.  I'm happy for you, and I think you should keep it up.  That does not make him worthy of the titles he claims to possess though.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Uh..ok.
> 
> What makes a Grand Master? What does that title mean? What I am saying is that someone with only 7 weeks of instruction cannot have learned much, or....there simply wasn't much to learn. That does not keep people from saying that have multiple high dan ranks and titles. I know that after spending one weekend with William Durbin, he obtained a 5th dan. Do I think that he deserved that title? Absolutely not.
> 
> ...


again, you are still talking like you know things for a fact.  you don't and i know you don't.

you are proving my point about internet information...anyone, anyone can say anything without regard to the facts.  you say things willy nilly and sometimes like you were there.  

juchnik....:lol:   and the others who gave you the low-down have the same problem as you..stating things without merit.

actually, it's not fair to make that statement...you don't know what i know.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> again, you are still talking like you know things for a fact.  you don't and i know you don't.
> 
> you are proving my point about internet information...anyone, anyone can say anything without regard to the facts.  you say things willy nilly and sometimes like you were there.



I know that I was a twelve year student of William Durbin, the man who writes history for your art.  I know that I have seen the actual court transcripts and read the documents.  I know that you are a student of Nimr Hassan aka Terry Lee, and you know only what he has told you.  Due to the fact that he was the one that was convicted, I dare say that you know what he wants you to know, period.  If these aren't the facts, then what are they?



> juchnik....:lol:   and the others who gave you the low-down have the same problem as you..stating things without merit.



I know that Bruce Juchnik visited Mitose in prison prior to his death.  I know that he also possesses some documentation from Mitose.  What has been stated that doesn't have merit?  Since you are so hell-bent on debunking what I have stated, prove me wrong...



> actually, it's not fair to make that statement...you don't know what i know.



Sure, you can say that.  But since you refuse to prove me wrong by issuing this "information", your side simply doesn't have merit.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Darnit, I spewed water all over my monitor after reading this....
> 
> What I got off the net? Technically, what I got off of the net was email addresses and phone numbers. That allowed me to contact various individuals personally.
> 
> ...


okay, so now you contacted people personally.  what did mitose have to say?  how about hassan? or what about the farmer?  right, you contacted people that got their information just like you, hear-say.

as far as a living legend...i'll let the hmais know that you think their titles are fiction and don't carry merit.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> okay, so now you contacted people personally.  what did mitose have to say?  how about hassan? or what about the farmer?  right, you contacted people that got their information just like you, hear-say.



But again, you have no proof to offer yourself.  So you are not capable of disproving anything that I have said.  Gotcha.



> as far as a living legend...i'll let the hmais know that you think their titles are fiction and don't carry merit.



Alright, now we move into threats.  But then again, those convicted of violent crimes, such as Mr. Hassan, have a tendancy to maintain alot of that violent behavior after their prison sentences are over.  

Thanks Koga Ha.  You just proved everything I said for me.  And one final time, can you state anything that I have said that simply isn't true?  If you can prove it, i'll retract the statements.  The only thing I have stated as fact is that Hassan was convicted of murder.  I have stated opinions which express my belief that he has inflated his own ranks and titles.  But those are opinions.

So...again, what have I stated that is false?


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I know that I was a twelve year student of William Durbin, the man who writes history for your art. I know that I have seen the actual court transcripts and read the documents. I know that you are a student of Nimr Hassan aka Terry Lee, and you know only what he has told you. Due to the fact that he was the one that was convicted, I dare say that you know what he wants you to know, period. If these aren't the facts, then what are they?
> 
> I know that Bruce Juchnik visited Mitose in prison prior to his death. I know that he also possesses some documentation from Mitose. What has been stated that doesn't have merit? Since you are so hell-bent on debunking what I have stated, prove me wrong...
> 
> Sure, you can say that. But since you refuse to prove me wrong by issuing this "information", your side simply doesn't have merit.


actually, i don't have to prove anything to you; time will do that.

juchnik...:lol:  sorry, i have to laugh.  that should tell you something.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> hassan is a living legend and that's not opinion, that's fact. trained numerous hours. we have the complete system and you got whatever it is you got.


Ko 

_*"trained numerous hours"*_

I hate to break this to you but most Grand masters, Master instructors or even Black Belts have trained for a little longer than numereous hours.
"living Legend" Please don't mistake Durbin's and his self promotiong rewriting of history!  Notorious is not Legendary, 

Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> actually, i don't have to prove anything to you; time will do that.



Ok, well that's cryptic.  What you are essentially stating is, that you can't disprove anything that has been said.


> juchnik...:lol:  sorry, i have to laugh.  that should tell you something.



It tells me that you would believe a convicted felon over someone with no criminal record.  It tells me that you would believe a person who basically ratted on his own instructor to save his hide.  It tells me that you are a child, and unfortunately, have gone through the same thing that Hassan claims happened to him through Mitose.  Brainwashing.

Do you not see a pattern here?  I do not want to get into personal attacks.  Again, I have no problem with Hassan, other than the FACT that he is a convicted felon teaching martial arts.  I don't, in my OPINION, think that is right.  But that's an issue that I need to discuss with my senator, or other public officials.  It doesn't mean that I think Hassan is not capable of being rehabilitated.  I clearly believe that he has been.

So go on with the petty comments that keep you from discussing the meat of the topic.  If you have nothing of value to say in your defense or that of your instructor, then don't try.  Just let it go.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> But again, you have no proof to offer yourself. So you are not capable of disproving anything that I have said. Gotcha.
> 
> Alright, now we move into threats. But then again, those convicted of violent crimes, such as Mr. Hassan, have a tendancy to maintain alot of that violent behavior after their prison sentences are over.
> 
> ...





			
				Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Darnit, I spewed water all over my monitor after reading this....
> 
> Living legend? Fact? Uh no, what Hassan is a convicted murderer, and that is fact. Go get the court documents, and see for yourself. Did he give himself this title of living legend? What makes someone a "living legend" anyway.


i'm not threating anyone, you made the statement not me. you are the one dealing with fiction, i like dealing with non-fiction.

okay, and now you're an expert in behavior? :shrug:


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Ko
> 
> _*"trained numerous hours"*_
> 
> ...


ah, okay, and you are?


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Ok, well that's cryptic. What you are essentially stating is, that you can't disprove anything that has been said.
> 
> 
> It tells me that you would believe a convicted felon over someone with no criminal record. It tells me that you would believe a person who basically ratted on his own instructor to save his hide. It tells me that you are a child, and unfortunately, have gone through the same thing that Hassan claims happened to him through Mitose. Brainwashing.
> ...


:sadsong: i guess i should go then.....


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

No, stick around.  If you can disprove anything that I have stated, please do so.  Maybe then, I wont be holding in the feelings I have towards both men.  Maybe then, you wont look like a child.

To get back on the idea of self-promotion. Go visit this document..

http://www.frankfortinfo.com/pdf/hassan.pdf

What you are looking at is straight out of Durbin's handbook.  Through his little bit of instruction that he has through Hassan, he is claiming lineage all the way back to Matsu Higa.  Now.  I know for a fact that the techniques Hassan teaches, is in no way similar to the techniques of Choki Motobu, or anyone who has studied Motobu Ryu.  This isn't based on half-truths, this based on twelve years of instruction under Durbin.

As for Durbin's listing of Thomas Barro Mitose and Bruce Juchnik.  He lists them because he requested recognition by both men of his Sokeship title in Kiyojute Ryu, and apparently, they issued those documents to him.  Through that, he claims lineage.

Now if that isn't self-promotion, then I don't know what is.


----------



## John Bishop (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> okay, so now you contacted people personally. what did mitose have to say? how about hassan? *or what about the farmer*? right, you contacted people that got their information just like you, hear-say.


This just shows that you need to spend much more time on your research before you start challenging other peoples statements.

Now how would you suggest someone talk to the farmer?  It would be pretty hard to get a statement from him, since Hassan stabbed and strangled him to death.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> okay, so now you contacted people personally. what did mitose have to say? how about hassan? or what about the farmer? right, you contacted people that got their information just like you, hear-say.
> 
> as far as a living legend...i'll let the hmais know that you think their titles are fiction and don't carry merit.


If I'm not mistaken, the "Farmer" is dead correct? Killed By Terry Lee. Should we consult a oujia board, or a medium?


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> ah, okay, and you are?


Actually if you go to the name in the cornor you can get my personal profile, and no I'm not a living legend-well maybe with a pen and some imagination???
:supcool: .  Ask me tomorrow.
BTW you again were???

Todd


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This just shows that you need to spend much more time on your research before you start challenging other peoples statements.
> 
> Now how would you suggest someone talk to the farmer? It would be pretty hard to get a statement from him, since Hassan stabbed and strangled him to death.


it would be hard to talk to mitose too genius; however, you can talk to hassan, but i doubt you would because you know what happened, right? :shrug: 

like i said before, hear-say....


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> If I'm not mistaken, the "Farmer" is dead correct? Killed By Terry Lee. Should we consult a oujia board, or a medium?


nothing gets by you either, huh, sherlock...


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

First you suggest we should talk to the dead victum, them Mitose (equally dead).  Now sarcasim, wow.  BTW I did'nt catch your name, maybe you could be good enough to id yourself

Todd


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## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> it would be hard to talk to mitose too genius; however, you can talk to hassan, but i doubt you would because you know what happened, right? :shrug:
> 
> like i said before, hear-say....



Yes, you have said that this is all hear-say, but haven't been able to prove otherwise.

So let me get this straight, I can talk to two dead guys, or the guy who killed one of the two?

I think I'll stick to believing the court records.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 27, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> No, stick around. If you can disprove anything that I have stated, please do so. Maybe then, I wont be holding in the feelings I have towards both men. Maybe then, you wont look like a child.
> 
> To get back on the idea of self-promotion. Go visit this document..
> 
> ...


interesting comments...

you have voiced your half truths, but in short time the whole truth will be known.

so what are you saying...your 12 years (2 years more accurate) with durbin is what?


----------



## The Kai (Jan 27, 2005)

In a short time I figured out Koga Ho as a goof:supcool:


----------



## Karazenpo (Jan 27, 2005)

WOW, this is getting pretty heated! The only thing I wish to add is this. Martial arts instructors convey an image of public trust, no, wrong words, not 'convey' but should 'qualify' for the position of public trust period. It doesn't mean you have to be a saint but there are certain lines or parameters that are not to be crossed, ever! Police officers are held to this higher standard of public trust and that is why if someone who has a past felony record need not apply or if a police officer committs a felony, he's history, which goes without saying since he'd be incarcerated for it. As a matter of fact, in most cases, a misdemeanor is more than enough to give a cop the ax. An out of town cop was arrested recently in my community for continuing a fight at a local lounge after our guys had arrived and quelled the disturbance. He had a clean record and was fairly new with his department. He was terminated by his police chief. I, in no way feel it should be that harsh for M.A. instructors but a line does have to be drawn. My point being, police, fire, priests, teachers, coaches and martial arts instructors are all held in a position of public trust. As far as my  police profession goes, if you did time for murder/conspiracy and were a 'model' prisoner and 'found God', etc., you still need not apply! 

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if this guy is the greatest martial artist that ever came down the pike and can kick all our butts, he should not be in a position of public trust. What is wrong with holding our martial arts to a higher standard. Please don't get me wrong. I don't feel it should be as strict as a police job as I stated previously, for I know some people make mistakes and get into trouble and then change their life around. I've helped some myself and I know many of you reading this have too, but where do we draw the line? I know where I do. Murder is one of them or any crime that shocks the conscience, sex offenders, etc. Well, I'm sure I made my point. No, sorry, this guy should not be teaching, ESPECIALLY since his crimes were that of VIOLENCE while STUDYING A MARTAIL ART perpetrated on an elderly couple. If you ask me that should have been a STIPULATION of his parole-Nothing to do with the martial arts ever again!!! Does anyone think this is unreasonable?


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> it would be hard to talk to mitose too genius; however, you can talk to hassan, but i doubt you would because you know what happened, right? :shrug:
> 
> like i said before, hear-say....


Your demonstrations of ignorance are astounding. Look into Sigung Bishop's record before you conclude that he just goes on hearsay.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 27, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> interesting comments...
> 
> you have voiced your half truths, but in short time the whole truth will be known.



The truth is already known.  Hassan is a convicted murderer.  He studied with Mitose for seven weeks, and now claims some rediculous rank and title.  If i'm wrong prove it.  Otherwise, you are just making yourself look foolish.



> so what are you saying...your 12 years (2 years more accurate) with durbin is what?



It's over.  1987 - 1999.  I have the rank certificates to prove it.  End of story, nice try.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> WOW, this is getting pretty heated! The only thing I wish to add is this. Martial arts instructors convey an image of public trust, no, wrong words, not 'convey' but should 'qualify' for the position of public trust period. It doesn't mean you have to be a saint but there are certain lines or parameters that are not to be crossed, ever! Police officers are held to this higher standard of public trust and that is why if someone who has a past felony record need not apply or if a police officer committs a felony, he's history, which goes without saying since he'd be incarcerated for it. As a matter of fact, in most cases, a misdemeanor is more than enough to give a cop the ax. An out of town cop was arrested recently in my community for continuing a fight at a local lounge after our guys had arrived and quelled the disturbance. He had a clean record and was fairly new with his department. He was terminated by his police chief. I, in no way feel it should be that harsh for M.A. instructors but a line does have to be drawn. My point being, police, fire, priests, teachers, coaches and martial arts instructors are all held in a position of public trust. As far as my police profession goes, if you did time for murder/conspiracy and were a 'model' prisoner and 'found God', etc., you still need not apply!
> 
> Personally, it doesn't matter to me if this guy is the greatest martial artist that ever came down the pike and can kick all our butts, he should not be in a position of public trust. What is wrong with holding our martial arts to a higher standard. Please don't get me wrong. I don't feel it should be as strict as a police job as I stated previously, for I know some people make mistakes and get into trouble and then change their life around. I've helped some myself and I know many of you reading this have too, but where do we draw the line? I know where I do. Murder is one of them or any crime that shocks the conscience, sex offenders, etc. Well, I'm sure I made my point. No, sorry, this guy should not be teaching, ESPECIALLY since his crimes were that of VIOLENCE while STUDYING A MARTAIL ART perpetrated on an elderly couple. If you ask me that should have been a STIPULATION of his parole-Nothing to do with the martial arts ever again!!! Does anyone think this is unreasonable?


Prof. Joe,

I totally agree! The Larger MA community rejected John Keehan after his criminal antics and he was a LEGITIMATE 5th degree with Robert Trias, and had been credited with the huge Midwestern expansion of the martial arts. Yet, he was still rejected when he went too far. This fellow with 7 weeks, or "many hours" of training, and a murder on his record wants to be acknowledged as a Grand Master by the MA community?


----------



## Ray (Jan 27, 2005)

Fascinating stuff.

Really it boils down to what does a black belt (or certification) mean in the martial arts.  It is only as good as the practioner and/or the certifier.  Although you and I may look at martial arts as a way of life, many others look at it as a hobby.

The public seeks solice by choosing "certified" public accountants, doctors with degrees and board certifications.  Teachers teach in "accredited" schools.  And the list goes on.  There is some body (or council) that sets the standard; practioners are certified by passing tests; audits of some sort take place to ensure that "best" practices are being followed.  Even with all that, there are still "professionals" who practice and fail to meet the standards.

As a martial artist, I don't think we want that type of regulation imposed upon us.  By the same token, it would be nice for our students to be able to look at our certificates and feel like their money for lessons is well spent.  But I guess our students will just have to evaluate what they learn and its value.  

It sucks for the unwary students who get taken by sham martial arts teachers.  But there are also sham doctors, accountants and investment counselors.


----------



## Karazenpo (Jan 27, 2005)

This guy could have most definitely got into some serious training in the last 30 years or so from some very competent people, I'll give him that. Although,  I don't believe all this Koga ha ryu ninjitsu stuff he's selling based on Mitose. He could also be a very talented teacher. I'll give him that too. He could have very well earned/deserved everything he has, including an honorary 7th dan personally from Professor William Kwai Sun Chow, if true, I'll give him that too, but let's face it, he wasn't convicted for spitting on the sidewalk, a barroom brawl, booking & gambling, possession of narcotics..........what we have to remember here is the brutality of this crime and its innocent victims. The details from that trial are horrendous. What if that were Koga ha's grandparents? I wonder how forgiving he would be then? I grant you, if you had no knowledge of this guy, Hassan was Lee, his bio looks like he walks on water. This is only my personal opinion reflected by my almost three decades in law enforcement and working with victims of violent crimes. You know, these days, murderers are not allowed to make money off their crimes with books, movies, etc., not that this is exactly the same scenerio but he was convicted of a violent crime in relation to martial arts and his instructor. I don't think this would be allowed in these days and times. I guess things were much different then or the parole system in California at that time was very, very liberal by not imposing such stipulations to his parole.


----------



## Danjo (Jan 27, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Fascinating stuff.
> 
> Really it boils down to what does a black belt (or certification) mean in the martial arts.  It is only as good as the practioner and/or the certifier.  Although you and I may look at martial arts as a way of life, many others look at it as a hobby.
> 
> ...



I think, in this case, that it has less to do with a large governing body, than the MA community in general. There are a lot of different styles and organizations represented here, but the idea of accepting as valid someone that is a convicted murderer and that claims grand master status after training for a matter of weeks, is repugnant to the average martial artist. There will never be consensus on exactly what should qualify as a master, black belt etc., but when someone this odious comes on the scene, it's usually pretty easy to get people on the same page.


----------



## Ray (Jan 27, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I think, in this case, that it has less to do with a large governing body, than the MA community in general. There are a lot of different styles and organizations represented here, but the idea of accepting as valid someone that is a convicted murderer and that claims grand master status after training for a matter of weeks, is repugnant to the average martial artist. There will never be consensus on exactly what should qualify as a master, black belt etc., but when someone this odious comes on the scene, it's usually pretty easy to get people on the same page.


I was referring to the thread's subject of self promotion; not whether or not the felon Terry Lee is moral enough (or qualified) to teach martial arts.  I do have an opinion on that subject, but since what I know about Mitose and Lee is third hand info I'll keep my opinion private.


----------



## GAB (Jan 28, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> This guy could have most definitely got into some serious training in the last 30 years or so from some very competent people, I'll give him that. Although, I don't believe all this Koga ha ryu ninjitsu stuff he's selling based on Mitose. He could also be a very talented teacher. I'll give him that too. He could have very well earned/deserved everything he has, including an honorary 7th dan personally from Professor William Kwai Sun Chow, if true, I'll give him that too, but let's face it, he wasn't convicted for spitting on the sidewalk, a barroom brawl, booking & gambling, possession of narcotics..........what we have to remember here is the brutality of this crime and its innocent victims. The details from that trial are horrendous. What if that were Koga ha's grandparents? I wonder how forgiving he would be then? I grant you, if you had no knowledge of this guy, Hassan was Lee, his bio looks like he walks on water. This is only my personal opinion reflected by my almost three decades in law enforcement and working with victims of violent crimes. You know, these days, murderers are not allowed to make money off their crimes with books, movies, etc., not that this is exactly the same scenerio but he was convicted of a violent crime in relation to martial arts and his instructor. I don't think this would be allowed in these days and times. I guess things were much different then or the parole system in California at that time was very, very liberal by not imposing such stipulations to his parole.


Hi All,

This is a very isolated case, and as serious as it was/is I am really surprised myself, that Koga Ha would present this with  a feeling of respect for this person is  interesting.  More than likely Koga Ha is also the same religion as Hassan and if true would explain his devotion. 

Part of the Martial Art is Ninja??? Ninjas are/were Assassans, Hassan's name can be interpreted as "Leopard Assassan".

Just a thought that was wandering around, it might be similar to a cult devotion. If this is the case I think the authorities in the area should be informed and find out what is happening in that particular school...

Regards, Gary


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> In a short time I figured out Koga Ho as a goof:supcool:


good, since you got me all figured out, i don't expect to hear from you on this thread again...bye.


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> good, since you got me all figured out, i don't expect to hear from you on this thread again...bye.



No offense, but what do you expect?  When the only argument you bring to the table is petty little insults, then this is what you get.

If you like your instruction under Hassan...great.  Keep at it.  If you can look beyond his past and accept the fact that he is a convicted murderer; that he spent less than seven weeks training under Mitose, then that's great.  

I know....you don't know what the truth is, but it will come out in time.  There, I even responded for you.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> WOW, this is getting pretty heated! The only thing I wish to add is this. Martial arts instructors convey an image of public trust, no, wrong words, not 'convey' but should 'qualify' for the position of public trust period. It doesn't mean you have to be a saint but there are certain lines or parameters that are not to be crossed, ever! Police officers are held to this higher standard of public trust and that is why if someone who has a past felony record need not apply or if a police officer committs a felony, he's history, which goes without saying since he'd be incarcerated for it. As a matter of fact, in most cases, a misdemeanor is more than enough to give a cop the ax. An out of town cop was arrested recently in my community for continuing a fight at a local lounge after our guys had arrived and quelled the disturbance. He had a clean record and was fairly new with his department. He was terminated by his police chief. I, in no way feel it should be that harsh for M.A. instructors but a line does have to be drawn. My point being, police, fire, priests, teachers, coaches and martial arts instructors are all held in a position of public trust. As far as my police profession goes, if you did time for murder/conspiracy and were a 'model' prisoner and 'found God', etc., you still need not apply!
> 
> Personally, it doesn't matter to me if this guy is the greatest martial artist that ever came down the pike and can kick all our butts, he should not be in a position of public trust. What is wrong with holding our martial arts to a higher standard. Please don't get me wrong. I don't feel it should be as strict as a police job as I stated previously, for I know some people make mistakes and get into trouble and then change their life around. I've helped some myself and I know many of you reading this have too, but where do we draw the line? I know where I do. Murder is one of them or any crime that shocks the conscience, sex offenders, etc. Well, I'm sure I made my point. No, sorry, this guy should not be teaching, ESPECIALLY since his crimes were that of VIOLENCE while STUDYING A MARTAIL ART perpetrated on an elderly couple. If you ask me that should have been a STIPULATION of his parole-Nothing to do with the martial arts ever again!!! Does anyone think this is unreasonable?


well, karazenpo, i guess in you neck of the woods police officers get fired for fighting.  

i'm glad you brought up the public trust issue.  why is it when i look at the news and see preists convicted of touching little boys and the worse thing that happens is re-location.  ah, so they can touch more boys.  no jail time, nothing...is that justice?  is there something to state their should be no contact with boys and girls for that matter...no.    

okay, so we know where you draw the line...fine, but to sit there and riddicule someone for something that happened 30+ yrs ago.      

at least hassan paid his debt to society.  people seem to forget or don't know that hassan was a star athlete in philadelphia, a scholorship player in college for football and track, a war vet...you get my point.  he wasn't some thug off the streets.  

i'm a little confused about your last statement: violence and martial arts.  maybe your art plays patty cake in the backyard or dojo, but the last time i checked the arts were developed to control people through pain.  oh, and for the elderly couple you refer to...the farmer (wish i could spell his name) was no joke.  in fact, he was a very skilled ma.  not that it makes everything better, but you put in context like he was some old fragile man.

so, you say hassan should not be teaching ma...well, obviously from your statement i see why; however, from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment.

a lot of the time people fall in love with the personality (instructor) of the art and not the system.  

anyway, i think your statement is unreasonable.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 28, 2005)

Lotus Flower said:
			
		

> What a concept. I'm on the legit end, 26 years of Training In Kempo in the Boston Area, ( Villari's Shaolin Kempo ) but where did it all start. Two schools of thought.
> You own you're own company, aren't you the CEO and you take on what ever title you want. As long as you can back it up on the mat.
> 
> Even the oldest, highest ranking GM had to start somewhere. So at some point in time, someone had to be the first to "Promote themselves" Someone had to start it, right? Even the oldest Soke. Think about it. It's like saying when did God begin to exist. Close your eye's and picture that one.
> ...


    I dont think people should promote themselves in rank for several reasons.

 1) People these days will take advantage of such a thing and promote themselves to 35th dan Grand-Sokedoke- Lord Privy Seal with little training. Such people make a joke of what others sincerely study and lower the integrity of the arts in general. This is by no means an American sickness .they have the same kind of morons in Japan as well. 

 2) Some folks think by promoting themselves they automatically get better technique because of the rankinstead of getting better technique then getting promoted. 

    I prefer the old Okniwan and Chinese way of rank..just dont have any and train. 

 In my teachers system we all wear what is called in Japanese as a nobakama (field hakama). We all have the same color belt from 10th kyu all the way up to the highest dan rank. This eliminates a lot of ego. I have seen many schools in Japan where people of higher ranks treat lower ranks differently because of the color of their belt. Rank discrimination I guess you could call it. 

  Rank and colored belts are a double edged sword. 

 I have had visitors in my dojo that claimed some pretty lofty dan ranks and yet if I were to grade them on basic technique like punches, kicks and so on(no kata performance/knowledge) some would be at a kyu rank level.

    What is considered a high level of skill by one school might be considered quite low by another.
   *I have witnessed some demos by highly ranked Japanese and Okinawan karateka that many folks think are the bomb and thought what the hell do people see in his technique that they think is so good? 

  *Doesn't apply to all just a couple.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Your demonstrations of ignorance are astounding. Look into Sigung Bishop's record before you conclude that he just goes on hearsay.


why, because he got some documents from the tracy's?

i'm still waiting to get the jfk documents...and o.j.'s.  

does sigung bishop know when those will be out?


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> The truth is already known. Hassan is a convicted murderer. He studied with Mitose for seven weeks, and now claims some rediculous rank and title. If i'm wrong prove it. Otherwise, you are just making yourself look foolish.
> 
> It's over. 1987 - 1999. I have the rank certificates to prove it. End of story, nice try.


you simplified your statement, so yes the first part is true.  the study and rank is false.

ask your buddy, karazenpo, about the "ridiculous" rank.  he's the pr guy for the hmais.

like i said, i don't have to prove anything to you.

'87-'99, i guess you showed me.  should i take your word for it?


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Prof. Joe,
> 
> I totally agree!  This fellow with 7 weeks, or "many hours" of training, and a murder on his record wants to be acknowledged as a Grand Master by the MA community?


i really find your comments amazing because you talk like you know.  hassan does not seek out these titles and if you don't believe me, ask him.  better yet, ask the organization who issued them.

you guys seem to be big history buffs and researchers.  let me know what you find out.


----------



## The Kai (Jan 28, 2005)

Whether or not what you like what he says Mr Bishops research and knowledge goes way beyond looking at the tracy's website!

Todd


----------



## Jeff Boler (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> like i said, i don't have to prove anything to you.



No, you can't.  What is their to prove?  Is Hassan a convicted murderer?  Yes, yourself already admitted that.  What else needs to be proven?  His rank with Durbin?  It was given to him.



> '87-'99, i guess you showed me.  should i take your word for it?



Who cares.  I am not the one backing a convicted felon, you are.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> This is a very isolated case, and as serious as it was/is I am really surprised myself, that Koga Ha would present this with a feeling of respect for this person is interesting. More than likely Koga Ha is also the same religion as Hassan and if true would explain his devotion.
> 
> ...


actually, i'm not the same religion.  i just haven't been eating the crap off the same plate as you.

big deal...you and many others translated his name into leopard, panther, kitty cat assassan.  and your point is?

actually, we have "authorities", doctors, professors, etc. in class.  

"...a cult devotion..." spooky! :anic:


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> No offense, but what do you expect? When the only argument you bring to the table is petty little insults, then this is what you get.
> 
> If you like your instruction under Hassan...great. Keep at it. If you can look beyond his past and accept the fact that he is a convicted murderer; that he spent less than seven weeks training under Mitose, then that's great.
> 
> I know....you don't know what the truth is, but it will come out in time. There, I even responded for you.


petty insults...you and others insult someone because of what you think you know.  i would be offended.  

i know the full story, but i don't feel it's my place to let everything out.  you on the other hand get half the story and preach like it's the gospel.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Whether or not what you like what he says Mr Bishops research and knowledge goes way beyond looking at the tracy's website!
> 
> Todd


oh, your back.  okay, i'll take your word for it.


----------



## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> No can you. What is their to prove? Is Hassan a convicted murderer? Yes, yourself already admitted that. What else needs to be proven? His rank with Durbin? It was given to him.
> 
> Who cares. I am not the one backing a convicted felon, you are.


right, who cares.  thanks for the conversation.


----------



## Karazenpo (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> well, karazenpo, i guess in you neck of the woods police officers get fired for fighting.
> 
> i'm glad you brought up the public trust issue.  why is it when i look at the news and see preists convicted of touching little boys and the worse thing that happens is re-location.  ah, so they can touch more boys.  no jail time, nothing...is that justice?  is there something to state their should be no contact with boys and girls for that matter...no.
> 
> ...



Please reread my post. No, wrong, the police officer who was off duty was NOT arrested for fighting per se. He was arrested for fighting after my brother police officers told him to knock it off. He simply ignored them, pushed past them and went at it. I'm willing to bet if you were there and he wasn't taken in, you'd be the first to run your butt down to city hall and make a complaint that the cops took care of their own and if that was you, you'd be locked up! C'ome on, I didn't fall off a turnup truck!

the preists, I absolutely agree with but your issue should not be taken up with the legal system, go to the Catholic church, for they are the ones that covered it up. I'm a Catholic and I'm disgusted in the handling of the situation. Better yet, see your friend, he's the one who found God.

You say: okay, so we know where you draw the line...fine, but to sit there and riddicule someone for something that happened 30+ yrs ago.      

I say: Are you kidd'n. You phrase it, 'something that happened'-an elderly man murdered in his home and his wife beaten half to death and you act like it was a DWI conviction! Whewwwwwwww!

 You say: so, you say hassan should not be teaching ma...well, obviously from your statement i see why; however, from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment.

I say: With all it's flaws it's the only system we have right now and we just have to make the best of it but a little more common sense and sensitvity to victims rights wouldn't hurt either.

You say: he wasn't some thug off the streets.  

I say: You breed ignorance on that statement. look at how many murderers are described by friends, neighbors and co-workers as church going and pillars within the community! Do you live in a cave?

You say: violence and martial arts.  maybe your art plays patty cake in the backyard or dojo

I say; Your welcome to 'play patty cake with me or any one of my people anytime but it is you that conceals your identity? Insecurity and lack of confidence, ya think? Perhaps you have the wrong instructor because there is more to the martial arts than violence but considering your source of instruction, I understand why you view it that way.

Here's the biggest joke you've told yet: the farmer (wish i could spell his name) was no joke.  in fact, he was a very skilled ma.

I say: Really........was his elderly wife that he beat half to death a highly skilled martial artist too? You gotta be kidd'n? How is anyone on this board going to take you serious with that statement?

You say: a lot of the time people fall in love with the personality (instructor) of the art and not the system.  anyway, i think your statement is unreasonable.[/QUOTE]

I say: We'll let the others on this forum judge this one.

In closing, I did not insult you sir in my post that you quoted me from, not at all. You're screen name only came up when I asked if you'd feel the same way if the victims were your grandprents AND I NOTICED THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION YOU DID NOT ANSWER! There was no need of that type of response to my post from you, just reread my original and you tell me where I had insulted you!


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 28, 2005)

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


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## Karazenpo (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> you simplified your statement, so yes the first part is true.  the study and rank is false.
> 
> ask your buddy, karazenpo, about the "ridiculous" rank.  he's the pr guy for the hmais.
> 
> ...



Get this straight too, reread my post that you originally quoted from. I did not mention anything about anyone's abilities or rank in a negative connotation and if you read his bio in the HMAIS, I stated it appears he walks on water. No one that didn't know would ever make the connection to Lee.  I also stated that he may have very well received some excellent training in those 30 years with some very notable instructors and I also mentioned his honorary 7th from Chow. I did say, though, I don't believe the embellished connection to training with Mitose, that's all. Furthermore, if you have a problem with the HMAIS, take it to it's founder. My opinion, and I stated it is my opinion, is the sole opinion of myself and does not reflect the opinions of HMAIS, the KGS BBS, the WMAF or NCK. It is my opinion as a human being and 29 year veteran of law enforcement. It is what it is!


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## The Kai (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> i really find your comments amazing because you talk like you know. hassan does not seek out these titles and if you don't believe me, ask him. better yet, ask the organization who issued them.
> 
> you guys seem to be big history buffs and researchers. let me know what you find out.


You don't hook up with Durbin unless you're seeking those titles, the organization that issued them?  the same.  

Todd


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## Jeff Boler (Jan 28, 2005)

Let me make this clear.  I'm not debating whether or not Hassan is a good person.  I personally believe that he is.  I believe that he underwent some religious conviction, and I believe he has been rehabilitated.

This whole issue is about two things.  Number one, does he have inflated rank, and should he be teaching.  According to an article written by Durbin, 



> Nimr Hassan has been training in the system of Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo for twenty plus years.



The problem is that he only received 7 weeks of instruction under Mitose.  How much could he have learned?  Remember, all of Hassan's history is written by Durbin.  Durbin's theories as to the "truth" behind the Mitose's demise are nothing less than bizarre.  According to Durbin, 



> At this point I have to express my own opinion on this matter. From the research I have done, the people I have talked to, and a study of the appeal papers, I really believe that James Masayoshi Mitose and his student were innocent. Yes there was a fight between the student and Frank Namimatsu, but I believe the student when he says that he did not kill the man.
> 
> We might wonder who did? There has been talk that the Yakuza might have been involved in having Mitose's name smeared since he was loaning money to people they would have been able to extort if it were not for him. There are those who say that other matters were involved, which I prefer not to get into, simply because the people are dead and I do not want to malign the memory of those individuals. There are a lot of other explanations to the death of Frank Namimatsu, which were not explored simply because the authorities had the person they believed were guilty and did not fully investigate the situation.
> 
> Was Mitose guilty of extortion? It looks like he was, but only due to ignorance of the law. He thought he was doing people a favor by loaning them money, and just in getting the returns where it was deserved. American law does not agree with this method, thus Mitose may have overstepped the bounds of the law, but was this severe enough to engender him dying in prison, probably not.



I think Durbin has intentionally come up with these theories to push his own agendas.  So what, every historian I have ever known does the same thing.  It's up to the reader as to whether or not they believe it.

So...this hasn't been a personal assault on Nimr Hassan.  It's an opinon based on his seven weeks of training under James Mitose.  It does not say in Durbin's article that he continued learning the system under someone else.  By reading Durbin's work, he discontinued studying all arts at the time he inherited Mitose's.  Does seven weeks of training under a master make you one?  Even if you "inherit" the system, how much of the system could you possible know? 

Then, there's the murder conviction.  Surely he realizes that he will always be scrutinized for his past.  Did he pays his debt to society.  Yes, even thow I think the sentencing he received is rediculous.  But, that does not erase what he did.  And i'm sorry, but I do not think that people who are convicted of felony, violent crimes should be allowed to teach martial arts, or study them, for that matter.

My opinion, of course.


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## Jeff Boler (Jan 28, 2005)

You might also notice in the clip above that Durbin refers to the murderer as "The Student", not Nimr Hassan.  It's because of this "concealment" technique that I left Durbin in the first place.  If he believed the stories that Hassan told him, as well as the fact that he has served his time, why did he refer to him as "The Student", and not Nimr Hassan?


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Please reread my post. No, wrong, the police officer who was off duty was NOT arrested for fighting per se. He was arrested for fighting after my brother police officers told him to knock it off. He simply ignored them, pushed past them and went at it. I'm willing to bet if you were there and he wasn't taken in, you'd be the first to run your butt down to city hall and make a complaint that the cops took care of their own and if that was you, you'd be locked up! C'ome on, I didn't fall off a turnup truck!
> 
> *how much would you bet? so, your telling me that if i (common citizen) pushed past some officers and started a fight they would let me go...cool.*
> 
> ...


I say: We'll let the others on this forum judge this one.

*why don't you judge this statement too. you did so well with the others.*

In closing, I did not insult you sir in my post that you quoted me from, not at all. You're screen name only came up when I asked if you'd feel the same way if the victims were your grandprents AND I NOTICED THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION YOU DID NOT ANSWER! There was no need of that type of response to my post from you, just reread my original and you tell me where I had insulted you![/QUOTE] 
*given the fact that didn't happen to my grandparents, i really couldn't respond. i don't know how i would act. would you like for me to speculate?*

*i never said you did insult me.*


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> Let me make this clear. I'm not debating whether or not Hassan is a good person. I personally believe that he is. I believe that he underwent some religious conviction, and I believe he has been rehabilitated.
> 
> This whole issue is about two things. Number one, does he have inflated rank, and should he be teaching. According to an article written by Durbin,
> 
> ...


your entire belief is based on seven weeks.  let's just say for a minute that statement is false...then what?  you know what, don't answer that.  stick to your theory.  

yes there is the conviction and that is something he has to live with, not you.  

oh, hasn't been a personal assult?!  oookay.


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> You might also notice in the clip above that Durbin refers to the murderer as "The Student", not Nimr Hassan. It's because of this "concealment" technique that I left Durbin in the first place. If he believed the stories that Hassan told him, as well as the fact that he has served his time, why did he refer to him as "The Student", and not Nimr Hassan?


i think you would have to take that up with durbin.


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## Jeff Boler (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> your entire belief is based on seven weeks.  let's just say for a minute that statement is false...then what?  you know what, don't answer that.  stick to your theory.



Oh, darnit.    There was Koga Ryu Ninjutsu involved.  I forgot.  I suppose they snuck in to each others jail cells, so Mitose could continue his training of Hassan (after Hassan ratted him out in court, that is).  Sneaky Ninjas.   I suppose there was some secret training prior to Hassan meeting Mitose.  If it was Koga Ryu, can we assume that Ashida Kim had something to do with it?  Or is this some piece of history that Durbin just hasn't conjured up yet?  Considering the fact that Durbin now has rank in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, i'm waiting for a supposed link between Mitose and Hatsumi.  That's the only thing that would make sense, right?    



> yes there is the conviction and that is something he has to live with, not you.



That's correct.  That's the power of choice.  I chose to get out of an associaton the supports a convicted murderer, you chose to stay and support him.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> I say: We'll let the others on this forum judge this one.
> 
> *why don't you judge this statement too. you did so well with the others.*
> 
> In closing, I did not insult you sir in my post that you quoted me from, not at all. You're screen name only came up when I asked if you'd feel the same way if the victims were your grandprents AND I NOTICED THAT'S THE ONLY QUESTION YOU DID NOT ANSWER! There was no need of that type of response to my post from you, just reread my original and you tell me where I had insulted you!


*given the fact that didn't happen to my grandparents, i really couldn't respond. i don't know how i would act. would you like for me to speculate?*

*i never said you did insult me.*[/QUOTE]

Look, I have no idea on some of the things you're talking about as I never said our systems are the same. I am perfectly happy with mine, for you see, in my occupation, I can't afford to 'play patty cake' with the people I deal with nor would I anyway. You like to preach it, from your own words as 'violence', I look at it as 'controlled aggression and self defense', I am not playing semantics either. I deal with reality and it's reality that I draw my opinions, viewpoints and training from sir. I simply expressed my opinion and it was not toward you, yet your reaction was one of hostility. This tells me something about your instructor, for the student usually reflects the teachings and philosophies of those who teach him, the apple doesn't fall to far from the tree. In this case, Mitose-Lee and Lee-You. I think we've reached the point of 'beating a dead horse'. We have our opinions here and you have yours. You were angered at my opinion, you shouldn't have been and I was angered back at your response. Perhaps, I should have ignored and showed more maturity considering the source but then again there is also an old saying 'to catch a rat, sometimes you have to jump in the gutter', well, unfortunately, I just got myself dirty. Goodby!

PS: Don't make assumptions. I said I was a catholic but did I say I was a practicing catholic?


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> PS: Don't make assumptions.


you sumed up this whole thread in three words.  

take care.


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## The Kai (Jan 28, 2005)

Good bye Ko"

Todd


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> I chose to get out of an associaton the supports a convicted murderer, you chose to stay and support him.


well, you better get out of the arts all together.  no wait your art is "new" and has been around how long?  10-15 years?  j/k

anyway, i hear you and like i said before...fine.  nobody said you had to support anything.

all the best in your training and growth.


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## Danjo (Jan 28, 2005)

"from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment."
Okay, I fully believe that Lee was able to "Master" in only seven short weeks, the skills required to murder an old man and beat up an old woman. That's not exactly what I would call the "Worst environment" when thinking of the reason for developing MA skills...but to each his own. Has he taught you the Old Woman beating techniques yet?


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## James Kovacich (Jan 28, 2005)

It did not take much of a search to turn up Hassan along side many greats as being a recognized Grandmaster by the HMAIS. Could it be the he really was issued a master cert. by Mitose? Pro. Joe, do you know?

Also at the bottom of his profile he thanks his instructors and lists *Terry Lee* as one of them.


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## The Kai (Jan 28, 2005)

Wait Bruce wayne had batman vouch for him on this one, self rank, self taught?

Todd


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## koga ha (Jan 28, 2005)

Danjo said:
			
		

> "from a pure ma prespective he's the prime candidate and is living proof that the system works in the worst environment."
> Okay, I fully believe that Lee was able to "Master" in only seven short weeks, the skills required to murder an old man and beat up an old woman. That's not exactly what I would call the "Worst environment" when thinking of the reason for developing MA skills...but to each his own. Has he taught you the Old Woman beating techniques yet?


you should sit back, drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities.


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## The Kai (Jan 28, 2005)

Like beating on the elderly???


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## Danjo (Jan 28, 2005)

Tell us, o knowing one, who knows the real truth behind all. Who are you? Impress us with your knowledge and background. Show us where we are wrong, rather than just saying we are. If your instructor did more than study for 7 weeks, kill an old man, beat up his old wife and get passed around a cell block in order to gain his Master status, tell us about it. We'd really like to know.


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## GAB (Jan 28, 2005)

koga ha said:
			
		

> actually, i'm not the same religion. i just haven't been eating the crap off the same plate as you.
> 
> big deal...you and many others translated his name into leopard, panther, kitty cat assassan. and your point is?
> 
> ...


Hi Koga Ha,

Could you give us some information as to what his name would be correctly interpreted as? I have also read that it could be "Leopard,keeper of the gate"??

I did know that Nimr Hassan had a pretty impressive record as an athlete and US Marine, He was also supposed to be very good at Martial Arts. I was told that by Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.

I have talked to persons who have been on the same mat with your instructor and have said he was skilled and also knew James Mitose's art. For a skilled Martial Artist it is not hard to learn and negotiate forms. Also he had the ability to be with James for many hours during that time, prior to the crime.

GGM Thomas B Mitose during his time and with Hanshi Bruce, decided not to acknowledge (Terry Lee) Nimr Hassan. It was his decision as the 22 GGM. They were together for 10 years time and then parted.

If you could be a little more informative and not combative maybe we could all learn some more about your instructor...

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo (Jan 28, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> It did not take much of a search to turn up Hassan along side many greats as being a recognized Grandmaster by the HMAIS. Could it be the he really was issued a master cert. by Mitose? Pro. Joe, do you know?
> 
> Also at the bottom of his profile he thanks his instructors and lists *Terry Lee* as one of them.



akja, I have bowed out of this topic for reasons I have given in my last post but out of the respect I have for you, I will answer your question. I do not know of any master's certificate given to Lee by Mitose, but it seems according to the latest interview from Gm. Thomas Mitose that he may have given them out indiscriminately. I have also heard this before. Again, perhaps John can shed more light on this for he knows much about this case. As far as this: Also at the bottom of his profile he thanks his instructors and lists *Terry Lee* as one of them.[/QUOTE]
I was initially perplexed at that one also but then again he did put an initial 'A' , Terry A. Lee, so is it possible that is the real name of a relative, perhaps his father, an uncle, his grandfather? It seems like Nimar likes to talk in 'riddles' just like his 'master', lol, or just play games, who knows with this guy? Take care, my friend, "Joe"


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## James Kovacich (Jan 28, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> akja, I have bowed out of this topic for reasons I have given in my last post but out of the respect I have for you, I will answer your question. I do not know of any master's certificate given to Lee by Mitose, but it seems according to the latest interview from Gm. Thomas Mitose that he may have given them out indiscriminately. I have also heard this before. Again, perhaps John can shed more light on this for he knows much about this case. As far as this: Also at the bottom of his profile he thanks his instructors and lists *Terry Lee* as one of them
> I was initially perplexed at that one also but then again he did put an initial 'A' , Terry A. Lee, so is it possible that is the real name of a relative, perhaps his father, an uncle, his grandfather? It seems like Nimar likes to talk in 'riddles' just like his 'master', lol, or just play games, who knows with this guy? Take care, my friend, "Joe"



The world can be a funny place at times. I think Thomas has been asked the same questions, so many times that he feels bad about the way his father "went about." Thomas and Mark live very close to me. I'm sure Marks "cup is only half full" 'cause I know where he's getting his ground game from.

 It's a shame that they have to live what was destined destined by James.
Take care my friend, Jim :asian:


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## Karazenpo (Jan 31, 2005)

akja said:
			
		

> The world can be a funny place at times. I think Thomas has been asked the same questions, so many times that he feels bad about the way his father "went about." Thomas and Mark live very close to me. I'm sure Marks "cup is only half full" 'cause I know where he's getting his ground game from.
> 
> It's a shame that they have to live what was destined destined by James.
> Take care my friend, Jim :asian:



Thanks, Jim. Take care & be safe my brother, "Joe"


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