# Yoga?



## InvisibleFist (Apr 10, 2004)

Anybody crosstrain in yoga?  Do you find it improves kicking height, stance depth?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 10, 2004)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> Anybody crosstrain in yoga? Do you find it improves kicking height, stance depth?


I haven't for years, and it shows in my daily stiffness and loss of fluidity.  Yoga, practiced well, will open up the joints and muscles of the body allowing for better physical performance of pretty much any martial art.  If you train in the physical-only Yoga's, you'll become more limber and better able to adapt physically to new techniques.  If you practice a yoga with mental/spiritual/energetic overtones, you'll learn to sense the location, direction, and flow of energy through your own body, and key into technical aspects of your performance better.

Mind, Body, and Spirit are seperate divisions of the same sole entity. Yoga enables you to work on the whole "You", which cannot help but lead to improvements in your martial practices.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave


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## OULobo (Apr 12, 2004)

Yoga is one of the best physical health practices I have ever found. I have practiced hatha, ashtanga, letha and dhanda. Any of these can change the physical requirment of participation. I find that yoga aids in longterm flexibility, muscle stamina/definition and energy increase, not to mention the mental benefits like tension/stress reduction and mental dicipline. I recomend any traditional method or style, but don't practice just in a martial arts mind set, use the mentality of overall health benefits instead.


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## KennethKu (Apr 13, 2004)

Certain yoga practices screw with your joints and actually weaken the ligaments. Twist your joints into range of motion that they are not designed to perform, then you are just asking for disaster.


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## OULobo (Apr 13, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Certain yoga practices screw with your joints and actually weaken the ligaments. Twist your joints into range of motion that they are not designed to perform, then you are just asking for disaster.



This is true. My PT warned me about this, but said that the stretching actually stretched the ligimants too much, essentially "fatiguing the rubberband". If you stretch certain ligimants too often they loosen so much they loose their supporting power, but they will tighten up again over time. The good side of this is that they will almost never snap or tear off, which is damage that needs to be surgically repaired.


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## Cruentus (Apr 13, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Certain yoga practices screw with your joints and actually weaken the ligaments. Twist your joints into range of motion that they are not designed to perform, then you are just asking for disaster.



I think that usually occurs if Yoga is done improperly. I have seen people really "try hard" to excel in yoga, forcing their body into some of the more difficult positions. This is contrary to what Yoga is supposed to be for. Yoga is supposed to be done in a relaxed manner; nothing is supposed to be forced.

I have done Yoga before, and I find that it is great for relaxation and overall health.

In regards to stretching, I think its a great way to complement your other stretching in that if done properly, you develop what I'd call a "true stretch," because all of the auxillary muscles and little parts of the muscles get slowly stretched. But understand that if done properly this is a very long process that could take many years to develop this kind of flexability. 

If your looking to be stretched out for sport (high kicking) I wouldn't recomend Yoga to get there because the process is so slow, and if you try to speed it up you risk tendon and ligement damage. I say that regular stretching methods and strength building (which involved getting warm before stretching) would be more beneficial in the short term.

 :asian:


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## loki09789 (Apr 13, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> I think that usually occurs if Yoga is done improperly. I have seen people really "try hard" to excel in yoga, forcing their body into some of the more difficult positions. This is contrary to what Yoga is supposed to be for. Yoga is supposed to be done in a relaxed manner; nothing is supposed to be forced.
> 
> I have done Yoga before, and I find that it is great for relaxation and overall health.
> 
> ...


I have to agree here.  It is similiar to the 'running is bad' concept because of injury statistics.  It isn't running that is bad as much as the impropre training practiced by enthusiasts than the activity.

Yoga is a sound practice if you practice it with the proper 'yielding' and 'non competitive' mentallity.  Practice yoga for body awareness and assessment or just for a little space of 'stressless stress', not pushing and furthering and the injury potential is reduced.

The core strength, elastic power from sound yoga can't be beat.


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## KennethKu (Apr 18, 2004)

Stretching your muscle to improve flexibility is simply barking at the wrong tree and is a losing endeavour.  The muscles are sufficiently flexible for even the most advanced gymnastics or MA performance. It is your nervous system that is holding your flexibility back.  You should strech to reset your neural inhibition.  Flexibility gained through stretching the muscles take a long time and the result decays as certain as radioactive isotopes decay in time. Flexibilty gained by resetting stretch reflex takes little maintainance stretching to retain. And takes less time to succeed in the first place.

Streching your muscle will actually incure micro-tear that eventually shorten your muscle. Also, by the decay of time, the collagen and elastin ratio of your muscle will worsen. And your muscle flexibility will decay, no matter how much you stretch the muscle.

Stretching your joints beyond the range of motion they are designed to perform is going to weaken your joints.  Too much flexibility is counter productive.

If someone thinks there is a right way to do yoga that somehow defies all these known facts, then feel free to stretch with yoga that way.


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## Cruentus (Apr 19, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Stretching your muscle to improve flexibility is simply barking at the wrong tree and is a losing endeavour.  The muscles are sufficiently flexible for even the most advanced gymnastics or MA performance. It is your nervous system that is holding your flexibility back.  You should strech to reset your neural inhibition.  Flexibility gained through stretching the muscles take a long time and the result decays as certain as radioactive isotopes decay in time. Flexibilty gained by resetting stretch reflex takes little maintainance stretching to retain. And takes less time to succeed in the first place.
> 
> Streching your muscle will actually incure micro-tear that eventually shorten your muscle. Also, by the decay of time, the collagen and elastin ratio of your muscle will worsen. And your muscle flexibility will decay, no matter how much you stretch the muscle.
> 
> ...



Not to put you on the spot, Kenneth, but do you have any sources to support what you are saying here?

Tx.  :asian:


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## loki09789 (Apr 19, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Stretching your muscle to improve flexibility is simply barking at the wrong tree and is a losing endeavour.  The muscles are sufficiently flexible for even the most advanced gymnastics or MA performance. It is your nervous system that is holding your flexibility back.  You should strech to reset your neural inhibition.  Flexibility gained through stretching the muscles take a long time and the result decays as certain as radioactive isotopes decay in time. Flexibilty gained by resetting stretch reflex takes little maintainance stretching to retain. And takes less time to succeed in the first place.
> 
> Streching your muscle will actually incure micro-tear that eventually shorten your muscle. Also, by the decay of time, the collagen and elastin ratio of your muscle will worsen. And your muscle flexibility will decay, no matter how much you stretch the muscle.
> 
> ...



THere are those who would list the risk assessment issues of practicing martial arts as a reason to side step it and sign up for a defensive firearm course as well, risk and reward are things we can consciously control and choose on a daily basis.

The philosophies behind yoga are based on being in the moment and just experiencing that moment.  THe exagerated poses you are referring to are not the goal of yoga because the exercise is a goalless practice at it's ideological root.  

There are some very credible yoga organizations, headed by PT's or Sport Science types, that have modified the physical instruction, poses and even rejected certain poses and movements for the very reasons that you mention but maintain the philosophical goals.

THe nervous system focus is at the core of yoga practice as an exercise form.  The difference is that the western view of the nervous system is biological/scientific/clinical and separate from the conscious self.  The yoga/eastern view treats it as a power center of will and conscious control and part of the conscious self.  In both cases the nervous system is the focus of development.

I like Yoga because it is a mind/body/spirit practice that has harmonious goals instead of the standard Western view of categorization and separation.  As a self defense Martial artist, anything that reinforces the coordination of all three of these areas is good to me.

Saying "yoga is bad" is the equivelant of saying "karate is hard style"  too general and tends to throw out the baby with the bath water.


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## KennethKu (Apr 19, 2004)

My posts are very clear. I specifically stated that yoga practices that *stretch your joints beyond their natural range of motion* are bad. The result is weakened joints and even torn ligaments.  I didn't say all yoga practices are categorically bad for your joints.  

I don't care about western view or eastern view. Physiology is a matter of science. Views and philosophy or new age hocus pocus really mean f%@$@$ s%@$# when it comes to science.


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## KennethKu (Apr 19, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> Not to put you on the spot, Kenneth, but do you have any sources to support what you are saying here?
> 
> Tx.  :asian:



Medical textbooks.

Check out terms like , collagen, elastin, stretch reflex, Golgi tendon organs, Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation, etc.


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## Cruentus (Apr 20, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> My posts are very clear. I specifically stated that yoga practices that *stretch your joints beyond their natural range of motion* are bad. The result is weakened joints and even torn ligaments.  I didn't say all yoga practices are categorically bad for your joints.
> 
> I don't care about western view or eastern view. Physiology is a matter of science. Views and philosophy or new age hocus pocus really mean f%@$@$ s%@$# when it comes to science.



Yoga done incorrectly is yoga that stretches ligaments and tendons beyound their natural ranges.


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## Cruentus (Apr 20, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Medical textbooks.
> 
> Check out terms like , collagen, elastin, stretch reflex, Golgi tendon organs, Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation, etc.



"Medical Textbooks" is a bit vague. I understand the terms you've listed, but I haven't read a medical resource that has made the arguement that your muscles are already flexable, and that it is ONLY your nervous system that inhibits your flexability (although, I have heard that of neural inhibition as being one of several factors).

If it was only neural inhibition, then why would we pull muscles when we are stretched too far beyond our "neural inhibition."


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## loki09789 (Apr 20, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> My posts are very clear. I specifically stated that yoga practices that *stretch your joints beyond their natural range of motion* are bad. The result is weakened joints and even torn ligaments.  I didn't say all yoga practices are categorically bad for your joints.
> 
> I don't care about western view or eastern view. Physiology is a matter of science. Views and philosophy or new age hocus pocus really mean f%@$@$ s%@$# when it comes to science.



Funny, I thought science was just another philosophical system of viewing and defining the world.  There are many western trained medical/trainer types who are enjoying great scientifically measurable successes by moving more toward a treat the patient as a person shift from the standard treat the patient as a collection of systems view.  The combination/synergism of the two is reasonable.  If it is proven to work.

As far as my misinterp of your post, I apologize.  I was really trying to get the the misconception that Yoga is about muscular stretching and not improved range of motion.


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## Azagthoth (Apr 20, 2004)

I have been doing ashtanga yoga for about a year and recently started doing Bikram yoga as well.  I find that it does improve my Muay Thai, some of the gains are from the flexibility, although in MT we don't really throw that many head kicks.  I think the biggest benefit is that yoga really helps you to learn to relax and breathe properly and is incredible for improving your overall state of mind.  This helps me alot during my Muay Thai training by helping me to better focus and to relax during sparring.  I don't know if that answers the question, but it's my cheap plug for yoga as a great crosstraining method 

As far as overstretching being bad for you or whatever, yoga done properly should not overstretch you...mostly people run into problems when they try to push beyond the normal limits.  It is essential to keep your yoga practice non-competitive and listen to your body at all times!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> "Medical Textbooks" is a bit vague. I understand the terms you've listed, but I haven't read a medical resource that has made the arguement that your muscles are already flexable, and that it is ONLY your nervous system that inhibits your flexability (although, I have heard that of neural inhibition as being one of several factors).
> 
> If it was only neural inhibition, then why would we pull muscles when we are stretched too far beyond our "neural inhibition."


_Functional Anatomy & Biomechanics_ and _Spine, Spinal Cord, and ANS_ are good books to strart with.  Yoga done well helps to reset the neural inhibition response, and will actually strengthen connective tissues, make them more physiologically efficient, and improve structure and function of tissues at the cellular level (S.A.I.D. principle: Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demand...a scientific, physiologically-based principle that supports the *sound* practice of Yoga). 

Online, stretching techniques from the western point of view that assist with this are PIR (post-isometric relaxation); PNF, CRAC (contract, relax, antagonist contract); others that will likely be mentioned in the same pages.

The supremacy of Yoga rests not in its ability to redefine structure and function, but relationship. Improved awareness of Body as part of Self, integrated with Mind, leads to an inevitable improvement in skills.  Which holds more, a 5 gallon bucket, or a ten gallon bucket?  Vessel size for humans is not fixed, and can be expanded. Yoga is one of the longest lasting, proven traditions for expanding the capacitiy of the human vessel to learn, internalize, and grow.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2004)

Also, Google Sherringtons Law of Recirpocal Inhibition, a neurological reflex in which the activity of agonists and antagonists check each others stretch capacity in order to protect the muscles and joints ofthe body from moving too far in a given voluntary movement. (at least, that can be interpreted that way).


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## loki09789 (Apr 20, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Online, stretching techniques from the western point of view that assist with this are PIR (post-isometric relaxation); PNF, CRAC (contract, relax, antagonist contract); others that will likely be mentioned in the same pages.



I am familiar with the difference between PIR and PNF, but what is the difference between PNF and CRAC in application?  They sound similiar.


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## Cruentus (Apr 20, 2004)

Thanks for the info so far.

But I am still confused as to the hyposthesis.

I need it broken down in dumb-guy terms    

Is the conjecture that our muscles are already "stretched" enough to meet maximum flexability, and that our neural inhibitation is the only thing holding us back, from say, the splits?

Or, is the conjecture that neural inhibitation is a factor that needs to be overcome, along with stretching of the actual muscle fibers.

If it is the former (that it is all neurological) then why would you pull a muscle if you stretched beyond your neurological limit, when the muscle is already flexable enough to go beyond that limit?

Thanks in advance.

PAUL


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## KennethKu (Apr 20, 2004)

PAUL said:
			
		

> "Medical Textbooks" is a bit vague. I understand the terms you've listed, but I haven't read a medical resource that has made the arguement that your muscles are already flexable, and that it is ONLY your nervous system that inhibits your flexability (although, I have heard that of neural inhibition as being one of several factors).
> 
> If it was only neural inhibition, then why would we pull muscles when we are stretched too far beyond our "neural inhibition."



Muscle tear occurs when the stretch reflex kicks in to protect the tendon, at the expense of the muscle. (Tendon tear takes fiorever to heal.) A muscle that is stretched too fast and/or far by an external force, will contract to oppose the stretch. A stretch + a contraction = muscle tear.  It does not even have to be maximally stretched for the tear to occur. As soon as the nervous system sense a danger of tendon tear, the stretch reflex kicks in, triggering a contraction. 

So, the objective is to strengthen the muscle and to tune down the stretch reflex. This is where relaxed stretching (yoga style) fails.  Relaxed stretching does not strengthen the muscle. Isometric stretching strengthens the muscle. A strong muscle has less sensitive stretch reflex. There is less need for the nerve system to intervene as it senses that the muscle is strong enough to main control.


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## KennethKu (Apr 20, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> ...The supremacy of Yoga rests not in its ability to redefine structure and function, but relationship. .......



This is getting into the ozone layer.


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## loki09789 (Apr 21, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Muscle tear occurs when the stretch reflex kicks in to protect the tendon, at the expense of the muscle. (Tendon tear takes fiorever to heal.) A muscle that is stretched too fast and/or far by an external force, will contract to oppose the stretch. A stretch + a contraction = muscle tear.  It does not even have to be maximally stretched for the tear to occur. As soon as the nervous system sense a danger of tendon tear, the stretch reflex kicks in, triggering a contraction.
> 
> So, the objective is to strengthen the muscle and to tune down the stretch reflex. This is where relaxed stretching (yoga style) fails.  Relaxed stretching does not strengthen the muscle. Isometric stretching strengthens the muscle. A strong muscle has less sensitive stretch reflex. There is less need for the nerve system to intervene as it senses that the muscle is strong enough to main control.



Dude take a yoga class and get a clue, they are always talking about opposition between the muscles (hamstring to quad, abdominals to lower back....).  I don't know where you are getting your info about Yoga, but it is misinformation.  Your clinical knowledge is sound, your yoga info is biased and inaccurate.  Check out YOGAFIT about yoga practice as an example of the whole package.


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## KennethKu (Apr 22, 2004)

I have no use for the watered down yoga as practiced today. The authentic yoga as practiced by the Black sect of the Tibetan Buddhism is the genuine yoga the purpose of which is to develope the human consciousness to a level that is yet to be comprehended by humanity in general.  

The watered down yoga as commonly practiced today is little more than body exercise mixed with eastern myths and other new age hocus pocus.

If it helps you relax, good for you.  If you believe it helps your MA performance, I am happy for you.  But that does not change the cold hard fact that relaxed stretching is obsolete while isometric stretching works. Neither does it change the fact that yoga practices (or any practices for that matter) that twist your joints beyond their natural range of motion will do you harm.

Having said that, you can safely practice yoga or whatever that happens to fancy you , provided that you do not stretch your ligaments nor twist your joints to do things that they are not designed to perform.


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## loki09789 (Apr 22, 2004)

Oh here we go with the 'original source' vs. 'watered down/adaptations'..... I thought science was science and the rest was hocus pocus?  Seems this type of self validation of what I do/know is superior to what you do/know isn't exclusive to martial art systems.

I suppose that the 'original' just popped out of Buddhas belly with no hint of evolutionary/outside influences - it just appeared.  There is no such thing as original, only innovation/adaptation on a theme.  Everything came from something.  That is one of the basic tenets of Buddhism.  What about the love?  Watered down?  How about adapted to make the message fit the audience?  Flux and change are the only constants that I know of.


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## Cruentus (Apr 22, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Muscle tear occurs when the stretch reflex kicks in to protect the tendon, at the expense of the muscle. (Tendon tear takes fiorever to heal.) A muscle that is stretched too fast and/or far by an external force, will contract to oppose the stretch. A stretch + a contraction = muscle tear.  It does not even have to be maximally stretched for the tear to occur. As soon as the nervous system sense a danger of tendon tear, the stretch reflex kicks in, triggering a contraction.
> 
> So, the objective is to strengthen the muscle and to tune down the stretch reflex. This is where relaxed stretching (yoga style) fails.  Relaxed stretching does not strengthen the muscle. Isometric stretching strengthens the muscle. A strong muscle has less sensitive stretch reflex. There is less need for the nerve system to intervene as it senses that the muscle is strong enough to main control.



Thanks for the explaination...now that makes sense to me (although i still believe that Yoga has benefits).


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 22, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> This is getting into the ozone layer.


How so?  And, is that a bad thing?  Moreover, is the Tibetan Black sect yoga the only yoga that expands Self? I seem to recall yogic texts written well beofre the introduction of the New Age video stuff, translated from Hindi and describing the different types of Yoga (physical, mental, spiritual, Siddhi-based; for Royals or Scholars only, etc.), practice objectives, and methods.  And if I remember correctly, Yogic practices, along with Buddhism and supportive pantheistic mythologies, migrated from India to the top of the world, and not the other way around.  That is not to say the Tibetans haven't figured out a way to do it better, but...

PS: Occasional trips into the ozone may be good for a mind that has difficulty deciding between the supremacy of objective over subjective (science), or subjective over objective (Yogh/Philosophy). There are places where the 2 are 1; where diametrically opposed poles spread so far from each other, that they round the corners of a sphere and merge, no?  (Alan Watts: "Dualism is a single word, with the opposites being percieved by a single mind".)

Regards,

Dave


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## KennethKu (Apr 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Oh here we go with the 'original source' vs. 'watered down/adaptations'..... I thought science was science and the rest was hocus pocus?  Seems this type of self validation of what I do/know is superior to what you do/know isn't exclusive to martial art systems.
> 
> I suppose that the 'original' just popped out of Buddhas belly with no hint of evolutionary/outside influences - it just appeared.  There is no such thing as original, only innovation/adaptation on a theme.  Everything came from something.  That is one of the basic tenets of Buddhism.  What about the love?  Watered down?  How about adapted to make the message fit the audience?  Flux and change are the only constants that I know of.



I read the texts on the original Yoga. I don't know how to translate the terms and concepts into English. Hence I can't explain to you in English. I can only tell you that Yoga as it was practiced, is NOT the stuff that is commonly practiced today. Yoga as commonly practiced today can only be described as totally watered down, butchered beyond recognition. I don't expect anyone to take my words for it. But fact is fact. Besides, the knowledge is so highly specific that it is next to impossible to discuss it with outsiders. Forgive me if this sounds condescending. That isn't my intent.


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## KennethKu (Apr 23, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> How so?  And, is that a bad thing?  Moreover, is the Tibetan Black sect yoga the only yoga that expands Self? I seem to recall yogic texts written well beofre the introduction of the New Age video stuff, translated from Hindi and describing the different types of Yoga (physical, mental, spiritual, Siddhi-based; for Royals or Scholars only, etc.), practice objectives, and methods.  And if I remember correctly, Yogic practices, along with Buddhism and supportive pantheistic mythologies, migrated from India to the top of the world, and not the other way around.  That is not to say the Tibetans haven't figured out a way to do it better, but...
> 
> PS: Occasional trips into the ozone may be good for a mind that has difficulty deciding between the supremacy of objective over subjective (science), or subjective over objective (Yogh/Philosophy). There are places where the 2 are 1; where diametrically opposed poles spread so far from each other, that they round the corners of a sphere and merge, no?  (Alan Watts: "Dualism is a single word, with the opposites being percieved by a single mind".)
> 
> ...



Buddha, when he reached enlightenment, came to the conclusion that not all his trainings should be taugh to all his disciples. He was concerned about the misuse of power by scumballs among his followers. Those privy to his knowledge formed what is later known as the Black sect. (Needless to say, other sects/branches also claim that they are the true heirs.) This sect of Buddhism follows a "practical approach" to enlightenment. Their focus is the betterment of our lives on earth, (hardly original, I know) through the developement and use of "mantra power". This is about power to effect the outcome of events. (Yes, we are approaching the Ozone very fast).  Yoga practices in the genuine forms, stimulate and develope the sources of this power. The developement of this power source does not involve faith. You don't have to become a Buddhist.  Yet, when I read the mantra, I don't see how that can be accommodated. Anyhow, being a Christian and a scientist, I would like to see verifiable proof of all these claims. Still, so far, we know for a fact that the original yoga was not about getting fit nor flexibility nor relaxation.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 23, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Buddha, when he reached enlightenment, came to the conclusion that not all his trainings should be taugh to all his disciples. He was concerned about the misuse of power by scumballs among his followers. Those privy to his knowledge formed what is later known as the Black sect. (Needless to say, other sects/branches also claim that they are the true heirs.) This sect of Buddhism follows a "practical approach" to enlightenment. Their focus is the betterment of our lives on earth, (hardly original, I know) through the developement and use of "mantra power". This is about power to effect the outcome of events. (Yes, we are approaching the Ozone very fast). Yoga practices in the genuine forms, stimulate and develope the sources of this power. The developement of this power source does not involve faith. You don't have to become a Buddhist. Yet, when I read the mantra, I don't see how that can be accommodated. Anyhow, being a Christian and a scientist, I would like to see verifiable proof of all these claims. Still, so far, we know for a fact that the original yoga was not about getting fit nor flexibility nor relaxation.


Agreed about the flexibility piece. However, you have to admit, it was a side-benefit from the physical yogas that can translate into a performance benefit for martial artists. And, yes, the yoga taught today is not the same as the spiritual development practices of origin.

Physical development = calisthenics, weight training, MA, etc.
Spiritual development (enhancing the awareness of, and functionality of spiritual Self in daily living) = Yoga. Personally, fond of the contemplative approaches that lead to enhanced relationship with the divinity of the Self within the self...an idea, to be sure, in contrast with some of christianities basic tenets (original divinity, forgotten, versus original sin). Ramana Maharsi comes to mind (who am I, really?), and Paul Brunton did a fairly decent job of elucidating the concepts of philosophical yoga in Quest or the Overself and Wisdom of the Overself.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave


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## loki09789 (Apr 23, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> I read the texts on the original Yoga. I don't know how to translate the terms and concepts into English. Hence I can't explain to you in English. I can only tell you that Yoga as it was practiced, is NOT the stuff that is commonly practiced today. Yoga as commonly practiced today can only be described as totally watered down, butchered beyond recognition. I don't expect anyone to take my words for it. But fact is fact. Besides, the knowledge is so highly specific that it is next to impossible to discuss it with outsiders. Forgive me if this sounds condescending. That isn't my intent.



Well, I am sure there is a text translation that is sufficient out there.  It as been done reasonably well from Tao, Buddhism, Confusionism, Existentialism.... This should be no different.

I am amused by the 'outsider' language and the idea that fact is fact and not perception....from a self proclaimed Yogic practitioner of a 'true' way of self improvement.  So much for the 'focus on the love' lessons of the Buddha...

There is also the many doors to the same room and kill the Buddha on the road stuff that is just as much a validation that variety allows access for all who seek to improve themselves - whether from the 'true' way or some other path.  Hell, even Christians have tied into the Buddhist philosophical doctrines as enriching their Christian spiritual growth.  Not a big group, but it is there.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 23, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Well, I am sure there is a text translation that is sufficient out there. It as been done reasonably well from Tao, Buddhism, Confusionism, Existentialism.... This should be no different.
> 
> I am amused by the 'outsider' language and the idea that fact is fact and not perception....from a self proclaimed Yogic practitioner of a 'true' way of self improvement. So much for the 'focus on the love' lessons of the Buddha...
> 
> There is also the many doors to the same room and kill the Buddha on the road stuff that is just as much a validation that variety allows access for all who seek to improve themselves - whether from the 'true' way or some other path. Hell, even Christians have tied into the Buddhist philosophical doctrines as enriching their Christian spiritual growth. Not a big group, but it is there.


Well put.  I'm sure the Amida Buddha would agree.  But wait...it won't matter, because he may not be the *one true* buddha!

Novel idea: What if we/they are all wrong, and the nature of spirit has yet to be revealed to any founder or follower of any path?  What if all the mystics and sages through the ages just share a common, chemically induced hallucination that's nothing more than a predictable storm of brain hormones? What if meditative and spiritual practices are unnecessary self-induced mini-deaths that reveal nothing that won't become all-known to all upon dying, anyway?

Being an annoyance,

Dave.


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## loki09789 (Apr 24, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Well put.  I'm sure the Amida Buddha would agree.  But wait...it won't matter, because he may not be the *one true* buddha!
> 
> Novel idea: What if we/they are all wrong, and the nature of spirit has yet to be revealed to any founder or follower of any path?  What if all the mystics and sages through the ages just share a common, chemically induced hallucination that's nothing more than a predictable storm of brain hormones? What if meditative and spiritual practices are unnecessary self-induced mini-deaths that reveal nothing that won't become all-known to all upon dying, anyway?
> 
> ...



This reminds me of the 'single source, multiple diffusion' explanation of folk legends, creation myths, motif/literary elements....  same biology, multiple interpretations of ritualistic needs, interpretations of images based on local animals of opportunity to turn into anamistic icons....

You are a pain, but fun


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## KennethKu (Apr 24, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Well, I am sure there is a text translation that is sufficient out there.  It as been done reasonably well from Tao, Buddhism, Confusionism, Existentialism.... This should be no different.
> 
> I am amused by the 'outsider' language and the idea that fact is fact and not perception....from a self proclaimed Yogic practitioner of a 'true' way of self improvement.  So much for the 'focus on the love' lessons of the Buddha...
> 
> There is also the many doors to the same room and kill the Buddha on the road stuff that is just as much a validation that variety allows access for all who seek to improve themselves - whether from the 'true' way or some other path.  Hell, even Christians have tied into the Buddhist philosophical doctrines as enriching their Christian spiritual growth.  Not a big group, but it is there.



There may very well be a reasonably good translation, but it is not my priority to be preoccupied with locating it.  Look into the Black sect of Buddhism. There may be good info there.

What I have posted  is factual. Whether anyone accepts it, is of little concern to me. I share the info, people are free to take it anyway they prefer. 

I am not a yoga practitioner, nor a Buddhist.  My objective in practicing MA is to prevail in combat. Anything that does not add value to fighting power and skills, is of little interest.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 27, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> There may very well be a reasonably good translation, but it is not my priority to be preoccupied with locating it. Look into the Black sect of Buddhism. There may be good info there.
> 
> What I have posted is factual. Whether anyone accepts it, is of little concern to me. I share the info, people are free to take it anyway they prefer.
> 
> I am not a yoga practitioner, nor a Buddhist. My objective in practicing MA is to prevail in combat. Anything that does not add value to fighting power and skills, is of little interest.


Spoken like a true dogmatist. Yep, that whole thing, again.


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