# Which is better for stand up Bjj? Wrestling or Judo?



## Hanzou (Sep 22, 2014)

If you would have asked me a few years ago, I would have said Judo. However, the more no-gi I do, the more I appreciate the smoothness of wrestling.

I've been checking out this guy;






Love his takedowns, and his instruction has really helped my stand up game. However, I still like to check out Judo as well, because of the transitions to locks is a bit smoother;






What do you think? Wrestling or Judo for Bjj standup?

Maybe the answer is both?


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## drop bear (Sep 23, 2014)

Depends what you want to do with it. For mma wrestling is generally better.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2014)

Ok I'll say it, BJJ is better for stand up BJJ.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Depends what you want to do with it. For mma wrestling is generally better.



I could see self defense applications for wrestling as well. Wrestling takedowns tend to be more gentle than Judo takedowns/throws, so if you weren't looking to spill some guy's brains on the concrete, you'd probably prefer a wrestling takedown over a Judo throw.


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## Skip Cooper (Sep 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I could see self defense applications for wrestling as well. Wrestling takedowns tend to be more gentle than Judo takedowns/throws, so if you weren't looking to spill some guy's brains on the concrete, you'd probably prefer a wrestling takedown over a Judo throw.




You must be referring to folkstyle (college) wrestling. In this style of wrestling, you have to control the opponent's fall until your knee touches the mat. You're not allowed to slam or dump your opponent. Check out some of the throws in freestyle and Greco-Roman (Olympic wrestling). There's no provision for protecting your opponent there. Some freestyle/GR throws I wouldn't do in a SD situation, like a German suplex for example, because you're supposed to finish the move by bridging on your head after the throw. However, a high-crotch to double leg (my favorite takedown) could cause some damage, as well as a fireman's carry, if the opponent doesn't know to tuck his chin or how to roll with it.


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## drop bear (Sep 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I could see self defense applications for wrestling as well. Wrestling takedowns tend to be more gentle than Judo takedowns/throws, so if you weren't looking to spill some guy's brains on the concrete, you'd probably prefer a wrestling takedown over a Judo throw.



It will depend on how closely you feel the principles and techniques of mma apply to self defence. For me I think they are pretty close. I wouldn't do knee drops though.

Otherwise wrestling works well to counter striking there are other elements like limited turning your back. Head wrestling. Limb control like arm drags that are useful for SD. In specific circumstances.

I do a lot of my restraint and control with wrestling set ups. And so that incorporates into weapon defence. As they overlap in concept.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DI9OmQtfUPU
Otherwise you could get spiked or suplexed on concrete and it would end badly.


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## drop bear (Sep 23, 2014)

Skip Cooper said:


> You must be referring to folkstyle (college) wrestling. In this style of wrestling, you have to control the opponent's fall until your knee touches the mat. You're not allowed to slam or dump your opponent. Check out some of the throws in freestyle and Greco-Roman (Olympic wrestling). There's no provision for protecting your opponent there. Some freestyle/GR throws I wouldn't do in a SD situation, like a German suplex for example, because you're supposed to finish the move by bridging on your head after the throw. However, a high-crotch to double leg (my favorite takedown) could cause some damage, as well as a fireman's carry, if the opponent doesn't know to tuck his chin or how to roll with it.




You can do a crappy German suplex though that just dumps them on their front.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOUMfiD-jbw&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google


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## Buka (Sep 23, 2014)

Either would be great, and in a perfect world both. 

I'm  thinking that from a self defense standpoint maybe judo. I'm picturing  standing casually, might be easier to start a judo throw than a  wrestling take down. Might be harder for the opponent to see coming.  Also, more opportunities in judo throws for him to end up down and you  to end up standing - if that's a consideration. Also, with the judo  throws you might be in control of one of his arms when he goes down,  that might fit more with the BJJ. I'm also thinking that if opponents  tend to be taller than you, judo throws might be the way to go.

Then  there's the training. I know there isn't such thing as easy, lazy  training, but wrestling training doesn't leave much in the gas tank for  anything else. I'm trying to picture going to a wrestling workout in the  afternoon.....and doing any damn thing later that night.

But all of that is just thinking. Can't really go wrong with either.


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## Skip Cooper (Sep 23, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You can do a crappy German suplex though that just dumps them on their front.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cOUMfiD-jbw&has_verified=1&layout=tablet&client=mv-google



Yeah, not clean, but probably good for a four point throw.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 23, 2014)

Both are really good.

Unfortunately, my judo is pretty weak and my wrestling sucks. I've started studying some sombo recently and it's been helpful for filling in some of the gaps in my takedown game.


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## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Both are really good.
> 
> Unfortunately, my judo is pretty weak and my wrestling sucks. I've started studying some sombo recently and it's been helpful for filling in some of the gaps in my takedown game.



What's some characteristics of their takedowns Tony? Out of the grappling arts, that one is the one I'm least familiar with.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2014)

Try Omdowl Kernewek (Cornish wrestling) still very much alive and being competed in. I've seen some of the competitions and I know one MMA fighter who also competes. It's one of several traditional styles we have in the UK.

Cornish Wrestling Demo - YouTube


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 23, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> What's some characteristics of their takedowns Tony? Out of the grappling arts, that one is the one I'm least familiar with.



I'm only about a month or so into sombo lessons, so I'm certainly not any sort of expert yet. It seems to blend aspects of judo and wrestling, with an emphasis on dominant over-the-back grips.

My big weakness in the takedown game is chaining moves together. I can demonstrate individual throws well enough, but combinations are what make a good judoka or wrestler. The benefit I've gotten so far from sombo is that some of the reference points help connect some of the individual moves I know already so that I'm able to chain techniques together better. (That's not to say that sombo is any better at combinations than judo or wrestling - it's just that the moves I've learned so far just happen to fit conveniently in place with what I already know.)


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2014)

The Russian martial art is called Sambo, due to political correctness one letter was changed to make it 'acceptable'. However if you Google Sambo you will find the good videos. It's quite a popular style here with a few places teaching it now.

http://sambo.com/


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## Hanzou (Sep 24, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Try Omdowl Kernewek (Cornish wrestling) still very much alive and being competed in. I've seen some of the competitions and I know one MMA fighter who also competes. It's one of several traditional styles we have in the UK.
> 
> Cornish Wrestling Demo - YouTube




Err... I think I'll pass.


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## Tez3 (Sep 24, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Err... I think I'll pass.



LOl, the demo is gentle, it's actually quite brutal, no mats in comps just the ground and grass. there's plenty of support for this and our other regional styles which is good. Cornish wrestlers often compete against Bretons as the language is the much the same as is the wrestling. The Celtic Games are something to watch as well. It's something to think about when people say we don't have any home ground martial arts!


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## Raymond (Sep 24, 2014)

The real answer is SUMO!


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 24, 2014)

Sumo is actually the one grappling art that has fared really poorly in the cage. Just about every sumotori that has fought MMA has been beaten by much smaller opponents. Machida has a sumo background which probably helps his takedown defense, but it's a secondary art for him.

That said, I'd love to see Takanoyama fight in MMA.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sumo is actually the one grappling art that has fared really poorly in the cage. Just about every sumotori that has fought MMA has been beaten by much smaller opponents. Machida has a sumo background which probably helps his takedown defense, but it's a secondary art for him.
> 
> That said, I'd love to see Takanoyama fight in MMA.



They probably get paid more doing sumo.


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## Raymond (Sep 25, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sumo is actually the one grappling art that has fared really poorly in the cage. Just about every sumotori that has fought MMA has been beaten by much smaller opponents. Machida has a sumo background which probably helps his takedown defense, but it's a secondary art for him.
> 
> That said, I'd love to see Takanoyama fight in MMA.



It wasn't a totally serious response.  Although I do think there are several current sumo that would totally wreck someone in a self defense situation, but as you said no serious sumo has gone into mixed fighting with any success.  But I think on the flip side, none of them have taken it seriously either.  I think Akebono was just in it for the payday and Teila Tuli fought with no understanding of any other art or what was out there.  

There are a lot of unique and useful throws in Sumo and Sumo all have a great sense of balance and sensitivity to the balance of the opponent.  Great attributes to a grappler.


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## swordsman (Oct 11, 2014)

I think so watching this video of cornish wrestling!


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## Sub Zero (Nov 9, 2014)

Either one is fine.   Like anything it depends on how well you apply the art.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> What do you think? Wrestling or Judo for Bjj standup?
> 
> Maybe the answer is both?



I'll say the answer is both.

Most standup game can be as simple as to use

 - "hand skill" to clinch, and
 - "leg skill" to take down.

The wrestling/Shuai-Chiao has good "hand skill" such as:

- head lock,
- arm wrap,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- bear hug,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- ...

The Judo/Shuai-Chiao has good "leg skill" such as:

- cut,
- hook,
- scoop,
- sticky,
- sweep,
- spring, 
- twist,
- block,
- lift,
- ... 

The following clip uses:

- "rhino (big fist)" to enter (available in striking art),
- "head lock" to clinch (available in wrestling),
- "slant cut" to take down (available in judo),
- "side mount" to continue on the ground (available in BJJ, not showing in this clip).

It's a perfect example of "cross training".


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