# Question for Yiliquan



## Kirk (Feb 11, 2003)

I know we've had our differences in the past, and I don't want
to go there again.  I'm legitimately curious about your style, and
I don't quite know how to inquire further without it sounding like
I'm questioning anything.



> Yili is a composite martial art, systematically teaching Shaolin, XingYi, TaiJi, and BaGua in progressive stages. The Primary Principle of Yiliquan, a martial arts system founded by Sifu Phillip Starr, is to find and maintain one's center.



This is from your www link.  The first question I have is, is it called
Yili? or Yiliquan?  I understand the composite statement, but not
the "find and maintain one's  center".  Do you mean something
spiritual, or is this a basis of the art?  What else can you tell me
about it?  Remember, I'm not an experienced martial artist.
:asian: 

Oh yeah .. what does "Gambarimasu" mean?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

Easy stuff first - _gambarimasu_ means "perservere," but has the connotation both of "good luck" and "keep your nose to the grindstone."  The shorter form more commonly heard form is _gambatte._

_Yiliquan_ means "One Principle Boxing," or at least that is our common translation...  Perhaps a better translation would be "fist" instead of "boxing," but _quan_ is often translated as "boxing," so what the hell...  

I could post a huge description of Yili, but that has already been done.  I wrote two articles that were posted on Cyberkwoon a while back.  Try going here.

Thanks for showing interest.

And by the by Kirk, just because I butt heads with you over a topic doesn't mean I necessarily want to head butt you until you pass out...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Feb 12, 2003)

Thanks for replying, and thanks for believing my intent.  Very
interesting articles.  Which leads to more questions LOL.

Are you a senior student?  If so, how long did it take you to get
there?

What is meant by "Chinese Medicine"? Accupunture? Herbalist?
WAY COOL!


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## Matt Stone (Feb 12, 2003)

I began training in Yili in 1986.  I reached Senior Level One grade in 1998, and in 2000(?) I was advanced to Senior Level Two (I'll have to check the certificate - I honestly don't remember what year it was, since I am truthfully not concerned with it!).

So, all in all, with on and off formal training squeezed in between military service and college, it took me (on the "extended plan") about 12 years to reach Senior.

I am one of three Senior grade students in the Seattle/Puyallup/Tacoma area.

As far as the traditional healing methods we are required to study, they can be massage therapy (I graduated from massage therapy school in Nebraska back in '93 I think), acupuncture and TCM (we can learn either through our schoolmates, or via other educational venues), etc.

I would be happy to try to answer any other questions you have.  Ask the hard ones, too...  We have nothing to hide!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Feb 12, 2003)

What's TCM?

One of the hard ones:
Are the other 2 seniors actively working with you?  Since you're in
the military, you could get stationed elsewhere, and what 
happens to your students?

This is kind of off base of the thread, but ...



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *(I'll have to check the certificate - I honestly don't remember what year it was, since I am truthfully not concerned with it!).
> *



I can understand this.  I can understand just being interested in
the knowledge.  But as in the case of kenpo (but not as strongly)
you have some kewl stuff "waiting" for promotion (e.g. the healing
parts).  Would you not like a student's anxiety for promotion, so 
they could get to "the cool stuff"?  

There was a technique in kenpo that I thought just looked cool, 
and some implied a level of impatience for rank on MY part, 
because I asked to be taught it.  It wasn't about rank or 
knowledge, it was just ... "cool".

Back on track, how big is Yili across the country?  Where is it's
biggest following?  ... Is the sifu (can't remember the name, sorry)
still around?

To an outsider, what other art would Yili most look like?

How is it received among the CMA community?

Do y'all do uniforms? Belts? Sashes?

Are there tests, or do promotions come at the discretion of the
instructor?


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## Erkki (Feb 12, 2003)

I'm not Matt, but I thought I'd chime in as a junior Yili practitioner.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What's TCM?*



Traditional Chinese Medicine



> *
> I can understand this.  I can understand just being interested in
> the knowledge.  But as in the case of kenpo (but not as strongly)
> you have some kewl stuff "waiting" for promotion (e.g. the healing
> ...



Speaking as a junior student in Yili, at the lower ranks there is a lot of anxiety to get to that point in your training where you learn the 'cool' stuff.  However, you soon get to a point where you wish it would all slow down so you can absorb it all.  There's a lot to learn!!!



> *
> Back on track, how big is Yili across the country?  Where is it's
> biggest following?  ... Is the sifu (can't remember the name, sorry)
> still around?*



Yili has schools in Omaha, Eastern Iowa, Seattle area, and the Pittsburgh area.  I'm guessing the biggest club is the Omaha club.  Yes, Sifu Starr is still around, albeit he lives in the boonies of Iowa.  :shrug: 



> *
> To an outsider, what other art would Yili most look like?
> *



It depends on what they see.  If they watched our basics they would probably say it looked like karate.  We also practice one-step fighting that looks similar to karate, although some of the footwork in the strategies looks like it could come out of a cool kung fu flick.  Our forms look like CMA, for the most part.  We're also very loud and intense.



> *
> How is it received among the CMA community?
> *



Mixed.  When my seniors were competing in the AAU tournaments in the early/mid 90's they were kicking butt and had quite a good name for themselves.  However, some people do not receive us quite so well since Sifu is not Chinese and they refer to him as just another white guy inventing a style to make a name for himself.  The fact that Yili fighters are very competent doesn't seem to matter.  Whatever.  



> *
> Do y'all do uniforms? Belts? Sashes?
> *



Yes.  Sifu prefers a standard karate gi with a karate belt (he likes the durability).  However, it is also acceptable to wear a traditional CMA uniform with a sash.  A Yiliquan patch is worn on the left breast.



> *Are there tests, or do promotions come at the discretion of the
> instructor? *



There are tests.  They are not fun, especially if you have a habit of inserting your foot in your mouth like I do.  :shrug: 

I hope this answers your questions.  Feel free to ask more.  Also, please visit our Yahoo message board and say hi.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/yilichuan


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Since that is a belief I have always held true to, both as a civilian and as a soldier, here goes:
> 
> I began training in Yiliquan in October 1986 under the direct instruction of Sifu Phillip Starr (founder and headmaster of Yiliquan).
> ...



Way cool!  I posted it here, to continue on.  What senior level is
considered 'Sifu'?

Do you learn that much taiji, that you can teach  basics in it?

Have you ever looked at EPAK?


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## Matt Stone (Feb 13, 2003)

The title _sifu_ is a subjective one...

There isn't, as far as I know, an official point at which the appelation gets tagged onto your name...  I use it because a) Sifu Starr was our teacher and the title fits, and b) Tim was teaching at the time, so also deserved the honorific prefix.

I go out of my way *not* not to use it unless someone that is senior to me makes me...  

We have a number of Senior grades that teach, and they typically use the title.

Yili is comprised of equal parts Baixingquan, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang, shaken not stirred.  The Taiji classes I have taught, while called Taijiquan, were really _Yili_ Taiji...  Our teaching, our principles, etc.  This was made very clear to the students, who weren't in it to learn "martial" arts anyway, just "health and fitness" arts.  Whatever.  In Japan, my Japanese friends approached me about teaching them, and I reluctantly agreed.  It just grew from there by word of mouth, and at the highest point I had about 40 - 50 students...  Only about 6 - 8 of them were with me the whole time, though.


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2003)

Okay, I'm reluctant to ask this one, for fear of making it look like
I'm attacking you, AND for making this another MMA vs. traditional
thread.

The SOLE reason I'm even asking about your style is because of
the way you've presented it.  It sounds a bit like the evolution of
American kenpo in the fact that the original kenpo that Ed Parker
studied evolved into what it is (nothing like the Hawaiin kenpo he
learned, I'm told) because he studied with so many various 
Chinese masters in "China Town" somewhere in California.  I'm
told that since he was Hawaiin, the Chinese masters there 
exchanged ideas with him, and because he was already an 
experienced martial artist.  The break down of what styles have
influenced the current system vary, depending on who you talk 
to, it's not defined so tightly, like Yiliquan.  You present your style 
with a lot of confidence and passion, enough that you've peaked 
my interest in it.  I'm happy with kenpo right now, but a lot of 
people in the kenpo community encourage cross training after 
earning a black belt, and although I haven't chosen a style (b.b. 
is in a  galaxy far, far away), Yiliquan holds the highest interest to 
me right now, because of your presentation of it.  Plus a general
interest in the varying styles of M.A.

Sorry for digressing so much.  Back to it then.  You seem to stand
up for traditional M.A. whenever you can, but from what I'm
understanding, Yiliquan isn't a traditional style?  

With only the "experience" of this board, one could easily 
stereotype mix martial artists, and "founders" of new styles.
You seem to concur, at least somewhat, with my opinions (no
need to go into that, it's present all over this board) of these
guys, but yet again, Yiliquan seems to be a mix of styles of martial
arts, and Sifu Starr is a founder of a new system, is he not?  

Again, please understand this is just curiosity.  As it stands right
now ... I'm sold.   I'm just glad that I'm not aware of any Yiliquan
schools in San Antonio, so I can keep my training focused! LOL


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## Matt Stone (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, I'm reluctant to ask this one, for fear of making it look like I'm attacking you, AND for making this another MMA vs. traditional thread.*



No worries.  Even if that _were_ your intent, step up and get some!   I'm in a good mood today (got off early), so I'm ready for anything! 



> *The SOLE reason I'm even asking about your style is because of the way you've presented it.*



Thanks for the compliment...  I just do my best to make myself clear, that's all.



> *It sounds a bit like the evolution of American kenpo in the fact that the original kenpo that Ed Parker studied evolved into what it is (nothing like the Hawaiin kenpo he learned, I'm told) because he studied with so many various Chinese masters in "China Town" somewhere in California.  I'm told that since he was Hawaiin, the Chinese masters there exchanged ideas with him, and because he was already an experienced martial artist.  The break down of what styles have influenced the current system vary, depending on who you talk to, it's not defined so tightly, like Yiliquan.  You present your style with a lot of confidence and passion, enough that you've peaked my interest in it.  I'm happy with kenpo right now, but a lot of people in the kenpo community encourage cross training after earning a black belt, and although I haven't chosen a style (b.b. is in a  galaxy far, far away), Yiliquan holds the highest interest to me right now, because of your presentation of it.  Plus a general interest in the varying styles of M.A.*



Again, thanks for the compliment.  I don't know all that much about EPK, but I was intrigued by what I had seen in the past.



> *Sorry for digressing so much.  Back to it then.  You seem to stand up for traditional M.A. whenever you can, but from what I'm understanding, Yiliquan isn't a traditional style?*



Define "traditional."  That is the key with Yili.  We are traditional in the sense that we utilize time tested, historically sound techniques from traceable lineages.  That doesn't mean we are adherents to dead methods.  If a martial art fails to grow and develop, what are you left with?  A dead and useless method shackled to the weight of "traditionalism."  But that doesn't mean that traditional techniques, methods and thinking need to be tossed out with the idea that because they are older they are inapplicable to modern situations.  _Real_ traditional systems are still very much alive and relevant to modern situations.



> *With only the "experience" of this board, one could easily stereotype mix martial artists, and "founders" of new styles.  You seem to concur, at least somewhat, with my opinions (no need to go into that, it's present all over this board) of these
> guys, but yet again, Yiliquan seems to be a mix of styles of martial
> arts, and Sifu Starr is a founder of a new system, is he not?*



You bet.  Yili is only 21 years old.  Not too much at all in a cosmic sense, but if you look at arts like TKD and Shotokan, it isn't too bad so far...  Time is the ultimate test of a new art.  If it is worth a damn, it'll survive.  Look at how some "bad budo" schools struggle to survive in public exposure.  Yili admittedly doesn't have many schools, nor many students, but that isn't because we are questionable.  Quite the contrary, the small numbers is due primarily to the rather demanding training!  In all honesty, Yili people are a bit frightening to folks who don't know us too well...

Back in 1986 or 87, when we were attending some local tournaments, our ability to wade through our opponent's techniques will very little concern for our own physical safety was greeted by the judges with questions and concerns.  We told them flatly that we knew the techniques being thrown were half-a$$ed, and weren't going to do any damage anyway...

In the AAU Chinese Martial Arts National Championships in Tulsa, OK back in 1991 or 92, the other teams in the team sparring category withdrew when faced with our team...  We were warming up (I was one of the three team members) on the side, and the other two teams saw us getting ready.  They had witnessed some of our people sparring earlier in the day during a poorly judged match (it was supposed to be point sparring, but one of the judges had one of his students competing, and had a grudge against our people - so our guy got fouled and penalized for minor contact while his student whaled on our guy at will), and remembered the spirit he had shown in that bout.  They asked if we were competing in the team competition, we said "yes," they went directly to the judge's table and withdrew their entry.  During that same tournament, a prominent Shuai Chiao guy from New York (I forget his name - never have been good at getting them right) told our teacher that "Yili is stronger than 10,000 styles."  That was nice of him...  

Recently, while at a Pavel Tsatsouline seminar in Seattle, Erkki asked Pavel to demonstrate some of his martially oriented techniques on him.  Erkki is an example of a Yili junior - eager and willing to get stomped every chance he gets!  So Pavel agreed, but didn't want to do any hitting.  So between seminars (there were three that day), he agreed to do some hitting.  Erkki got a taste, and Pavel used me to demonstrate for Erkki.  Pavel's eyes apparently went wide when he saw how quickly we recover from being hit, and how even more quickly we step up to get hit again! (that was witnessed by Tim H. who was standing next to Pavel as Pavel was smacking us around).  

But I digress...  

Yeah, Yili is traditional *and* non-traditional, orthodox *and* unorthodox.  We are a living system built on the roots of traditional successes.  Our teacher is no super man, no Bruce Lee, and in his own words just a regular guy.  What he has put together, though, is an amazing thing.  I have trained with a lot of people, in a fair number of different schools both in the US and Japan, and I have yet to find anything (besides RyuShiKan's training and Taika Oyata's Ryu Te Karate) that comes close to it.  I have been doing it for 16 years and I have only scratched the surface of what I have yet to learn...



> *Again, please understand this is just curiosity.  As it stands right now ... I'm sold.   I'm just glad that I'm not aware of any Yiliquan schools in San Antonio, so I can keep my training focused! LOL *



We don't have anybody in Texas that I know of...  We did have one old Yili student down that way, but I'm not sure where he lives anymore (haven't heard from him for a while).  If you go here you can hook up with the Yili people all over the US, ask whatever questions you want, and maybe make plans to visit some of them if your travel plans allow for it.  You (and anyone else reading this thread) are always welcome to jump in on our training should you ever make it up to the Seattle/Tacoma area.

Feel free to email me at wolfden68@hotmail.com if you have anything you want to talk about, ask, etc.  Sifu sends out all sorts of lectures on all kinds of topics in Yili, and we are accumulating quite a large library of info at the Yahoo club site as well as on our own PCs.  If you want info, just ask.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Erkki (Feb 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> Recently, while at a Pavel Tsatsouline seminar in Seattle, Erkki asked Pavel to demonstrate some of his martially oriented techniques on him.  Erkki is an example of a Yili junior - eager and willing to get stomped every chance he gets!  So Pavel agreed, but didn't want to do any hitting.  So between seminars (there were three that day), he agreed to do some hitting.  Erkki got a taste, and Pavel used me to demonstrate for Erkki.  Pavel's eyes apparently went wide when he saw how quickly we recover from being hit, and how even more quickly we step up to get hit again! (that was witnessed by Tim H. who was standing next to Pavel as Pavel was smacking us around).  *



That was fun!!!  Actually, Pavel was surprised when _I_ hit you.  I don't think he expected us to pound on each other like we do (even though I took it easy on you  ).  He was surprised again when you just stepped back up for more.
I did tell Pavel that the next time we meet he has to _really_ hit me, so I can see what he's got.  He said I must be a glutton for punishment.  Heeheehee.  




> *
> Yeah, Yili is traditional and non-traditional, orthodox and unorthodox.  We are a living system built on the roots of traditional successes.  Our teacher is no super man, no Bruce Lee, and in his own words just a regular guy.  What he has put together, though, is an amazing thing.  I have trained with a lot of people, in a fair number of different schools both in the US and Japan, and I have yet to find anything (besides RyuShiKan's training and Taika Oyata's Ryu Te Karate) that comes close to it.  I have been doing it for 16 years and I have only scratched the surface of what I have yet to learn...*



Don't forget to include Sensei Harrill's Isshin-ryu students as well.  Very good stuff.   

[/B][/QUOTE]


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## chufeng (Feb 13, 2003)

> The title sifu is a subjective one...



What he means is, it has different meanings...in our school we use it as the Japanese use the term "sensei." Many schools reserve it for "master" level...but it simply means teacher...



> I go out of my way not not to use it unless someone that is senior to me makes me...



Now you are in for an ***-whoopin'

I've NEVER made anybody call me that...
I am a student just like you....

:asian:
chufeng


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2003)

How long does competency take in acupuncture or TCM?
How long was your school?  Do you use your skills actively?


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## chufeng (Feb 13, 2003)

Kirk,

In any healing art, one is always learning and refining the skills necessary to help others.

How long does it take to become competent in TCM? I don't know...you'd be better off asking someone who practices TCM regularly. Same with acupuncture...I've seen three, four,and five year programs...in the old days, in China, it took a minimum of eight years because it was more of an apprenticeship...

My teacher (Sifu Starr) learned from his teacher (Master Chen Wing Chou) in the old tradition...I took classes in acupuncture and TCM offered at my kwoon for two years...since then, I have earned a Master's degree in Health Science and am a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist...I am NOT certified in TCM or acupuncture, but I can use that knowledge to better understand what may be going with my patients when I interview them in preparation for an anesthetic....I can also use that knowledge (and do) in my application of certain strikes found within the forms in our system.
To understand one is to begi to understand the other...healing and hurting are two sides to the same coin.

Prior to Yili, I studied both Judo and TaeKwonDo...I had five years of Judo and had attained the rank of Sankyu...Prior to these arts I wrestled and boxed...none of those arts had what i was looking for...

I studied YiLi with Sifu Starr from October, 1982 thru June, 1986.
Then I joined the Army (for a second time)...
I trained at the kwoon 4 to 6 days a week and attended every "weekend intensive seminar" that was offered (5 hours on Friday evening...0730 - 2300 on Saturday...and 0730 to 1730 on Sunday), they were offered about three times a year. When i trained at the kwoon, I sometimes would attend morning and evening classes and would train for three hours at home, as well.

It seems like a short time (4 years) but when you add up the hours...it was the equivalant of maybe 9 years at a regular dojo.

Once I left Iowa, I trained for 3 to 7 hours every day...1986 to 1991...(during this time I trained in Aikido and FutGar Kung Fu...I found those same elements in our system...)

I taught YiLi to anyone interested...many people came, few stuck around...training is hard...and when it comes to meeting the "standard" for our system, I am an *******. 

In 1991, I started my Master's program in anesthesia...I had to cut back on my training...but the time I put in up front paid off in spades...because, even though I'm a broken down fat fart now, I can still whoop Yiliquan1's butt  :rofl: 

At any rate...the secret to skill in any art is simply HARD WORK...
I am as much a student now as i was when I walked through the
doors of Sifu Starr's school back in 1982...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Now you are in for an ***-whoopin'*



Yeah, I figured you were gonna say that...  

So this would make this coming Saturday different from any other Saturday exactly how?



> *because, even though I'm a broken down fat fart now, I can still whoop Yiliquan1's butt*



See!  There you go...

Looking forward to training tomorrow...  Sort of.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Feb 16, 2003)

Ow.

Went and trained with Chufeng today, as I do every Saturday...

Learned more of our advaned Taijiquan form, practiced it a bit, reviewed our basic Taijiquan form, practiced it a bit, then worked on some one step stuff with one of our newer students...

Then Chufeng got to play.

We spent about 20 minutes practicing - Me attacking, Chufeng handing me my *** in a most friendly and amusing manner...  Attack.  Get b*tch smacked.  Fall down.  Try to breathe again.  Laugh.  Repeat.

My body is now in severe healing mode...  Everything is trying to shut down and make me hibernate so the repairs can be done.  I ate like a friggin' horse earlier, have continued to consume raw materials (i.e. food) at every possible opportunity, and now I am fighting off unconsciousness...

I LOVE IT!!!!

Can't wait until next week.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Feb 16, 2003)

You got in your shots, too.
I especially liked the drilling fist just above my right eye...

:asian:
chufeng


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## James Kovacich (Feb 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Easy stuff first - gambarimasu means "perservere," but has the connotation both of "good luck" and "keep your nose to the grindstone."  The shorter form more commonly heard form is gambatte.
> 
> Yiliquan means "One Principle Boxing," or at least that is our common translation...  Perhaps a better translation would be "fist" instead of "boxing," but quan is often translated as "boxing," so what the hell...
> ...



I know that both spellings mean the same, quan and chuan. just wondering why you spell it differant than Sifu Starr?


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## chufeng (Feb 19, 2003)

Quite frankly, that is a matter of age, more than anything.

When Sifu (and I) were learning (my interest in martial arts predates my meeting with Sifu by several years) the Wade-Giles system of phonetic translation was the norm...hence ch'uan...

When Yiliquan1 was learning...the Pinyin system had replaced the older phonetics...it was easier for Yiliquan1 to adjust to the Pinyin, which is now the standard for phonetic translation of the Chiinese...hence quan...

I switch back and forth between the two systems, but am more and more becoming comfortable with the Pinyin system...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Feb 19, 2003)

I studied Mandarin in college as well, so I am simply more familiar with the Pinyin method of romanization.

Also, though it matters little in the overall scheme of things, _Yiliquan_ is the official spelling, though since we all know what we are talking about the interchange of both terms happens occasionally, often within the same document.  I stick to Pinyin simply because it is more commonly used (though I did get my primary exposure to Chinese with the Wade-Giles translations), and it keeps things more consistent...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Feb 20, 2003)

What exactly is pinyin? I've seen it referred to quite abit, but never understood it.

Funny English reading on my part. I've been around enough Chinese based martial artists to be aware the quan and chuan are pronounced the same but when my first instinct when seein quan is to pronounce it kwan.


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## East Winds (Feb 21, 2003)

Yiliquan1

Would you care to explain to us exactly what Yili Taiji is? and  what paramaters you consider makes 48 step combined Taiji more "advanced" than 24 step?

regards

East Winds

"When asked about breathing in Tai Chi, my Master replied, "Yes keep doing it"


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## Matt Stone (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *What exactly is pinyin? I've seen it referred to quite abit, but never understood it.
> 
> Funny English reading on my part. I've been around enough Chinese based martial artists to be aware the quan and chuan are pronounced the same but when my first instinct when seein quan is to pronounce it kwan. *



Pinyin is the officially recognized method of romanization (the process of transliterating, not translating, words from non-English languages into English) for Chinese as directed by the Chinese Governement.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by East Winds _
> *Yiliquan1
> 
> Would you care to explain to us exactly what Yili Taiji is? and  what paramaters you consider makes 48 step combined Taiji more "advanced" than 24 step?*



Well, to be perfectly honest, having never studied the compulsory sets (i.e. 24, 36, 48, etc.), I'm none too familiar with them.  When I am watching someone perform, I can tell whether they have any fighting training in their background, and I can usually tell when someone is just doing "Taiji dance."

The first Taiji form learned in Yili is called Yili Jiju Taijiquan.  I am not sure on the number of postures, as I didn't learn it that way nor have I ever referred to it by a numbering method.  I was told in Japan that it had the surface appearance of a modified 36 set, but I didn't really know what that meant so the comment just kind of hung there...

Anyway, from what I have been taught, Yili Jiju Taijquan (we just call it the Short Form) is the simplified Yang form with modifications.  When our teacher was in China, he saw that the Taiji players all had narrow stances, there root was weak, and there was little evidence of angular application of the postures (their forms were very perpendicular in application - head to head rather than coming in from an angle).  Our method of the form opens up the stances, emphasizes the body mechanics (e.g. on Push I have seen folks just bring the hands back to the chest, down to the dan tien, then push out straight - we turn and coil as the hands move to dan tien, and there are variations on practice as to the personal expression of the push), and demonstrates the applications a bit more readily (I think).

I have just started learning our advanced Taiji form.  It is almost all 45 degree angles as the postures move, so I'm not sure if it is similar to anything out there or not.

Does that help?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## East Winds (Feb 22, 2003)

Yiliquan1,

Thanks for the comprehensive response. Coudn't agree more with you about "tofu" taichee! Also coudn't agree more with you about the narrow stance destroying the root. However as you know, 24 step was developed by a "committee" purely for health and therefore they would not be too bothered about being grounded or rooted, although of course to develop Jins you have to be grounded. They would not be too bothered either about martial applications as they play no part in a health programme. The "committee" which formulated the simplified and combined sets were conforming to Government guidelines. Remember that during the Mao era, Taiji was banned and becasue of its martial element was regarded as subversive. So one has to look at the development of these "new" forms with these facts in mind. 

The coiling and spiraling that you describe seem to have more of a Bagua flavour than a Taiji flavour? In Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan, structure is vitally important and we employ "open" and "closed" stances to overcome the head to head aspect.

Thanks again for the explanation

Best wishes

"When asked about breathing in Taiji, my Master replied "Yes, keep doing it"


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## yilisifu (Feb 22, 2003)

I'm finally back online after my previous computer suffered a massive coronary and died.. 

  Yes, our short form is actually the old 24-step form which has been modified very slightly.  You're right; the original was used mainly for health purposes for the masses to practice.  It's not a "fighting form" but it is excellent for teaching the fundamentals of Taiji to beginning students.  
   The advanced form combines primary Yang and Sun styles and utilizes Yili's unique footwork/body shifting to make the movements more applicable to actual fighting.


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