# For All The Taekwondo Bashers The Real Truth On Taekwondo From My View



## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

c


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 5, 2005)

Um, a few notes if I may. Typing is all caps is yelling and considered bad form, and very rude. Courtesy ya know. U is spelled y-o-u. Punctuation is a good thing. Around here, people take seriously those who type seriously. Your points are well meant, but retyping them might be of use. Expecially as a 2nd dan. Dan ranks are noticed around here (Including 8th and above) Welcome to the boards.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Um, a few notes if I may. Typing is all caps is yelling and considered bad form, and very rude. Courtesy ya know. U is spelled y-o-u. Punctuation is a good thing. Around here, people take seriously those who type seriously. Your points are well meant, but retyping them might be of use.
> Welcome to the boards.


Thankyou for the information 1340 I really dont like using correct grammar on the net,I usually just use slang.However, thanks for the information and  I will
reconsider since you asked so politely


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## Andrew Green (Jul 5, 2005)

Yup, that sure helped...

 Yikes...  I'm not even gonna attempt to read it...

 No one is going to take anything you say seriously if it is typed like that.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> AS AN ITF TAEKWONDO WITH 9 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE I AM TIRED OF HEARING ALL OF THE TKD BASHERS .THAT TO ME IS AN ACT OF CLOSED MINDED AND CONFUSED PEOPLE.



And your response to them is based on your experiences with what other arts with which you compare your TKD training?



> (NO OFFENSE TKD BASHERS)



This is your first post.  You typed in all caps, which in e-communication indicates yelling...  Certainly no one is taking offense, but you aren't doing yourself any favors by presenting your argument with "U" instead of "you," and other teenaged shorthand...



> FIRST OF ALL I BELIEVE WHO ARE U GUYS TO SAY O TKD SUCKS,THEY ALWAY KICK HIGH,SINE WAVE IS DUMB AND THIS AND THAT WHEN U GUYS USUALLY GO BY WHAT U HEAR AND SEE AT CERTAIN MCDOJANGS.



Perhaps because the bulk of the schools that "TKD Bashers" have had their experience with present exactly that kind of public front...  They all kick high, they teach "sine wave" (which I still don't fully grasp, but it sounds like garbage - more on that later), etc.  You are asking them to go against the direct evidence that supports their beliefs...



> NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE LIKE AS FEW AS U UNDERSTAND.



I think what you meant to say was that "not all schools are *alike*," and perhaps not, but the bulk of the schools *are*.



> WHEN I HEAR U GUYS SAY THIS ITS THE WORDS UED EXPECT FROM NON MARTIAL ARTIST.



No, it is perhaps the words *you* would expect to hear from a non-martial artist...  _Real_ martial artists have training that directly contradicts the bulk of what it is taught in TKD schools.



> U KNOW THE GUYS WHO ARE ALWAYS DOING THE KARATE KID CRANE THING,MAKING THE BRUCE LEE NOISE



Well, we certainly aren't the ones making those kinds of people do that, now are we?  Nor are we the kind that are encouraging it.  



> NOW IT IS TRUE THAT TAE KWON DO STYLIST kick HIGH AND FOR THAT REASON I DONT KNOW.



After 9 years or training, you don't know why you are taught to kick high?  Pity...   :idunno:  You'd think after nearly a decade of training you'd understand more about your own art.



> BUT I DO KNOW IN MY SCHOOL WE ARE TOLD TO KICK BELOW THE WAIST IN AN ACTUAL STREET ACOUNTER.



Good for you.



> PERSONALLY I DONT KICK BELOW THE SOLAR PLEXUS.



So in a bar fight situation, you'll still attempt a head kick?  Silly rabbit, such tricks are likely to get you stomped...    



> NOW I BELIEVE THERE ARE MANY CONS TO KICKING AT THE HEAD SUCH AS LOST OF BALANCE,EXPOSURE OF YOUR LEG KEEPING U BALANCED EX.THE PROS CAN BE AN KNOCKOUT OR THE DROPPING OF THE PERSON U KICK.



It is a simple cost/benefit analysis...  The risk you take for the chance of a KO is too great to validate putting yourself in an untenable position.  Hence the criticism, widespread and not style specific, of TKD's constant high kicks.



> NOW IMMAGINE IF YOU WERE TO KICK SOMEONE AS HARD AS U CAN WITH A HOOK KICK WITH YOUR HEEL ARE A TURNING KICK WITH THE TIP OF YOUR SNEAKERS OR SHOE THE RESULTS WOULD BE DRAMATIC AND NOT GOOD FOR YOUR ENEMY.



Now imagine a guy with several friends, one of whom is picking up that chair behind you and getting ready to clock you as you are chambering your pretty kick at his buddy...

It is best to keep your feet where they can do you the most good - solidly planted on the ground.



> NOW LETS GET ON SINE WAVE NOW I MYSELF WAS TAUGHT SINE WAVE CORRECTLY BUT NOT TO THE DEGREE OF MOST ITF SCHOOLS WHERE THEY EXAGGERATE IT.



So you were taught it, but your teacher didn't emphasize it the way the rest of your association does...?



> JUST PUT IT LIKE THIS I WAS TAUGHT THE WAY WHERE IT CAN BE COMBAT EFFECTIVE



So you imply that the way it is normally taught is *not* combat effective?  You just joined the ranks of the same naysayers you are trying to argue against...



> BUT COME ON IN A 1 ON 1 WHO WOULD REALLY GO DOWN UP DOWN TO PUNCH SOMEONE WHERE U CAN PUNCH SOMEONE AND PUT YOUR WHOLE BODY INTO IT.



It seems you ask the same question your detractors ask...  Do you have an answer based on your 9 years of ITF TKD training?



> TO ME SINE WAVE AND ALL OF TAEKWONDO TECHNIQUES ARE MEANT TO PUT YOUR BODY INTO ALL YOUR TECHNIQUE



Is that what they taught you, or is this your own revelation?



> .AND TO DO THIS U MUST USE SOMETING CALLED CONTROOLED LOST OF BALLANCE.WHICH CAN ME FOUND MOSTLY IN MOVEMENT 18 IN DAN GUN TUL.WHEN U GET TO THAT MOVEMENT U MUST SWING YOUR BODY INTO THE STRIKE INCORPORTAING YOUR BODY MASS AND HIPS INTO THE STRIKE.(I HOPE ALL THE ITF PRACTIONERS CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT)TO EXPLAIN WHAT I CALL CONTROLLED LOST OF BALANCE U ARE BASICCALY TROWING YOUR BODY INTO EACH BLOCK AND STRIKE TO PRODUCE POWER IN YOUR TECHNIQUE.



If it is the technique I'm thinking of, it is an inefficient use of movement to effect what amounts to a total committment technique.  If you miss, or you are too small to effect your opponent...   :idunno: 



> NOW 1 THE REASON WHY U BASHERS THINK TAEKWONDO DOESNT HAVE ANY HAND STRIKES ARE PUNCHES BECAUSE U NEVER STAYED IN IT PAST BLACK BELT WHERE MOST OF THE REAL HAND TECHNIQUES COME IN.



That's really a little late to teach someone to use the appendages that are most easily controlled, most effectively trained, and easiest to employ...  That's like saying you are going to wait until black belt to teach someone how to defend against someone with a weapon...  Wait, TKD does that, too...  Oh well.      I'm sure the guy with the knife will wait until after your black belt test to attack you in a closed in, confined space.  Criminals are nice like that.



> TAEKWONDO ALMOST HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF KICKS AS IT DOES HAND STRIKES IF U WANT TO GET TECHNICAL WITH IT.



Sure it does.  That's why even in TKD point sparring tournaments hand and foot techniques carry equal weight in points value, right?  Oh, that's right, they don't...



> WHY REAL TAEKWONDO HAS FALLEN APART IS BECAUSE ITS MANY INSTRUCTERS THAT RUN MCDOJANGS,THE SPORT ORIENTATED WTF TECNIQUES,THE EXAGGERATION OF SINE WAVE, AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MUST INSTRUCTERS DONT INCOPORATE ENOUGH BOXING TECHNIQUES.



Why would they have to incorporate boxing into TKD if TKD is so worthwhile?  Your arguement is rapidly falling apart as your contradictions grow in number...



> SOME PEOPLE ALSO BELIEVE TKD HAS NO GRABS OR PRESSURE POINTS STRIKES.THERE ARE ENOUGH ALONE IN PATTERNS.THERE IS EVEN A NERVE STRIKE STRIKE IN CHON JI.



Only one?  Wow.  Nine years and the best you can find in your forms is one whole "nerve strike" in one form, and a basic one at that.  Scary.   :idunno: 



> THERES GRABS IN WONHYU,YULGOK, AND MANY OTHER TULS.BELIEVE IT OR NOT TAEKWONDO HAS MANY RELEASES FOUND IN PATTERNS SUCH AS HWARANG AND JOON-GOON.



Ya think?  Thanks for clarifying...

Too bad you can't see the forest since there are so many trees in the way.

Enjoy.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> Thankyou for the information 1340 I really dont like using correct grammar on the net,I usually just use slang.



Because, of course, so many people you've never met are going to allow for such a personal idiosyncracy and think you are in fact a highly educated and literate person instead of a teenager with no coherent argument...

Whatever.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Damn you Matt.You just pointed out all of my mistakes and made me look very dumb while it,thankyou very much.I would love to respond to all my mistakes you commented on but its just too many.I am speachless.All I have to say is I have way more knowledge of Taekwon do  and writing than that article displayed.:whip:


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

So do it again...


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Well only one thing in that statement was true and that was when you said I was a teen,In fact I am 17 going on 18.


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## Bester (Jul 5, 2005)

Yo!  Dudeling!
Read this
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/netiquette_101.html
Then try again.

If you can't hack proper netiquette, you might want to avoid the serious BBS's and just hang out on AOHELL with the other 3l1t3 Dudez!


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## deadhand31 (Jul 5, 2005)

To all who read this person's post. 

I would like to apologize on behalf of TKD pratctitioners everywhere for this person's behavior. Aside from what you may gather from his schizophrenic mumblings, most TKD practitioners are actually quite literate. Please do not associate his ramblings with those of other practitioners. Thank you. 

(Oh, and Kwon, don't go branding the WTF schools as sports schools. My school (WTF), actually does full-contact sparring, and same point values on hand and foot techniques. The school up the road from us, (ITF), will only do point sparring, because, and I quote from one of their public demonstrations, "We don't do continuous sparring. It tends to get too dangerous and aggressive.") 

Thanks.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 5, 2005)

Okay as I see it, you have to paths
1. Do it again with a "Any questions, I'll try and answer them best I can"
2. Don't
I'm a CHKD guy and the bashers are immense. But for me it's never US vs. THEM it's US. So try and find the common ground, start there, then explain why and HOW you do it. It'll make future discussions go much easier. There is much knowledge to be gained here, and I hope you'll look into it. All of it


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

I would of typed it over but I lost my whole point of what I wanted to get across.I typed this yesturday at http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=16120 and I wanted to have the article placed here.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> Well only one thing in that statement was true and that was when you said I was a teen,In fact I am 17 going on 18.



I'd figured as much, what with the "kwon*17*" bit.

Here's the deal...  You are 17, and with 9 years of TKD behind you, that means you started when you were 8.  That also means that the bulk of what you've learned, up until *maybe* the last 2 years or so, was crap.

You were a child.  For that matter, you still are.  Age notwithstanding, you are still not fully developed until you are in your early 20s.  Not my rule, blame God.  That means that the lion's share of your training was done by a child with a child's mind and a child's body.  You simply weren't capable, mentally or physically, of learning anything else.  And since you have been taught since such a young, eager to learn age, you hold it all very dear to you.  That explains your outrage when "TKD bashers" attack the art you've devoted half your life to.

The same thing happens when people are shown holes in their religious upbringing, when they are betrayed by family members, etc.  It is understandable.

What you have the opportunity to do, here, is to tap into literally hundreds of years worth of experience in the form of senior instructors from literally dozens and dozens of other styles.  Formulate your theory.  Write it coherently and in an organized fashion.  Present your argument, and see if it holds water.  If it begins to leak, seek out teachers who will help you understand where those leaks come from, and more importanly how to shore them up...

Or, write in slang and be a punk.

The choice is yours...

(And just as an example of first hand experience, I'm living in Korea for the second time in my life, and the TKD they teach _even here_ is loaded with garbage and black belts are nearly guaranteed in a year or less...)


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## Bester (Jul 5, 2005)

Someone should do a "Myths of TKD" thread.
Debunk the "kicking people off horses" myth, as well as the "1 promotion for each time zone crossed while traveling to US to open school" myth.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Someone should do a "Myths of TKD" thread.



I thought those were called "threads about TKD."



> "1 promotion for each time zone crossed while traveling to US to open school" myth.



If it were a myth, it could be debunked...


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 5, 2005)

Good thing I train TKD here in MT, we have to kick people of horses all the time, cause we ride 'em and all. Yeah...okay back to topic.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Damn Matt don't you think It was kind of rude for you to say that what I learned was ******** when you never even seen my physical skill or mental skill in Taekwon Do


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 5, 2005)

Dude....um..you come off worse in the other forum. And it's going downhill here. *sits back to watch more fireworks* I hate to speak to black belt this way, but please, if not your age, act your rank!


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Your making it seem as if I train at one of those mcdojangs that you see everywhere in the U.S.If you were to see me an action you'd surely be proved wrong.I mean I do take pride in what I learn obviously,If i didn't care I wouldn't of made an attempt to type the stuff that you read and dissaproved of.


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## Marginal (Jul 5, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> So in a bar fight situation, you'll still attempt a head kick?  Silly rabbit, such tricks are likely to get you stomped...



I prefer kicking the bicep. Possibly the eye tooth. 



> If it is the technique I'm thinking of, it is an inefficient use of movement to effect what amounts to a total committment technique.  If you miss, or you are too small to effect your opponent...   :idunno:



Sounds a lot like the feared "stumble" more than any technique I've ever learned. I've heard of recovering balance before moving. Never heard of falling from one position to another...

On sine wave, he is right in one respect. It was largely misunderstood when it was introduced. People thought the dropping motion was supposed to replace using the hips to generate power etc. It tends to be employed with a better biomechanical understanding now than it was a few years back, or when it was introduced. So I would argue that it's usually misunderstood due to the perceptions of the folsk that first saw it, said "that's stupid" and left the org rather than practice SW at all. Regardless of how its trained, it tends to vanish during sparring sessions etc. 



> Sure it does.  That's why even in TKD point sparring tournaments hand and foot techniques carry equal weight in points value, right?  Oh, that's right, they don't...



To be fair, ITF standards do weight punches far more fairly than olympic sparring rules do. 



> Only one?  Wow.  Nine years and the best you can find in your forms is one whole "nerve strike" in one form, and a basic one at that.  Scary.   :idunno:



There are more. 

Eh, not really interested in arguing either way given how embarassing to TKD the initial post was.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

So in a bar fight situation, you'll still attempt a head kick? Silly rabbit, such tricks are likely to get you stomped...  


 What I meant to say was I dont kick above the solar plexus  not below.The only reason I kick that high is because I am flexible and I can kick quickly and still hit hard


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> Well only one thing in that statement was true and that was when you said I was a teen,In fact I am 17 going on 18.


Um, not to pile on, but I just checked your profile, and you list your birthdate as January 30, 1983.  Bad math, bad memory, or typo?  By the way, if it's a typo and your year of birth is 1988, you're really pushing that "going on 18" thing.
Just an observation.  Welcome to Martial Talk.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Yes extreme typo


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> Damn Matt don't you think It was kind of rude for you to say that what I learned was ******** when you never even seen my physical skill or mental skill in Taekwon Do



Your physical skill means little if the foundation it is based on is flawed.  A house may very well look sturdy and aesthetically pleasing, but if it is built on a fault line prone to frequent earthquakes those looks will mean little when the big one hits.



> Your making it seem as if I train at one of those mcdojangs that you see everywhere in the U.S.



I never said that.  Check what I wrote.  What I did point out were the flaws in your arguement.  I work in the legal field as a military paralegal.  It's my *job* to point out inconsistencies and errors of logic.  That's all I did with your post...



> If you were to see me an action you'd surely be proved wrong.I mean I do take pride in what I learn obviously,If i didn't care I wouldn't of (and it is "wouldn't *have*," not "wouldn't *of*.") made an attempt to type the stuff that you read and dissaproved of.



Of course you care.  I pointed that out earlier.  I also pointed out that, like many people in different situations (religion being one of them), you've been *indoctrinated* from an early age to believe that TKD is something that it may well _not be_.  What I said was that this presents you with a wonderful opportunity to further your own education, by asking questions and getting answers (either from others or on your own).

Believe me, if it were my intent to be rude, there'd be no question whatsoever...


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Your physical skill means little if the foundation it is based on is flawed. A house may very well look sturdy and aesthetically pleasing, but if it is built on a fault line prone to frequent earthquakes those looks will mean little when the big one hits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for being cool and trying to help me with my own errors and I am sorry for taking it the way I did.

And one more thing is there anyway you could close this thread


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> Thanks for being cool and trying to help me with my own errors and I am sorry for taking it the way I did.



I'm 20 years older than you, and started training before you were born.  I'm just helping out the way my seniors would have, and do, help me.  It doesn't have to be "nicey-nicey," and it doesn't have to sound good, either.  Bitter medicine is often the most helpful...



> And one more thing is there anyway you could close this thread



I'm neither a mod nor admin.  There's no reason to close it, that I can see.  I'm still interested in your attempting to rewrite your arguement...


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I'm 20 years older than you, and started training before you were born. I'm just helping out the way my seniors would have, and do, help me. It doesn't have to be "nicey-nicey," and it doesn't have to sound good, either. Bitter medicine is often the most helpful...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm neither a mod nor admin. There's no reason to close it, that I can see. I'm still interested in your attempting to rewrite your arguement...


Hey even I am surprised that I am being so nice,after reading the past statements I made I fell like a nut.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

There's no point in writing it over from my perspective.Even if I did make an attempt it wouldn't justify much. I don't even care about the tkd bashers anymore they say what they want to say. I am smart enough to know that the art I have been doing for the past 9 years works for me in combat.


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## Matt Stone (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> There's no point in writing it over from my perspective.



Why is that?  Please explain...



> Even if I did make an attempt it wouldn't justify much.



Well, if that is how you feel, run with it...  The world is certainly better off by your complacency and refusal to fight for what you believe in.



> I don't even care about the tkd bashers anymore they say what they want to say.



And no matter what you say, no matter what you write, no matter how hard you work against the tide of those who would stand against you, they will *still* continue to believe whatever they like.  Isn't the point not the victory, but the fight itself?  Just curious...



> I am smart enough to know that the art I have been doing for the past 9 years works for me in combat.



And Custer was smart enough to know he had the Indians outnumbered...


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## Bester (Jul 5, 2005)

kwon 17 said:
			
		

> c


From screaming at full tilt, to a cryptic message. Truely this is a dizzying intellect. 
I'll stick to the superior art that US TKD has stolen so much from.
Tae Kwon Leep. 

I am a Master of "Boot to the Head".

Ed Gruberman.


Anyhow, Kwon ol boy.
You claim to be 17. 
And that your art has worked in "Combat"
How long did you serve, what branch, what unit, etc?
Or, do you mean you know enough to impress your friends with some trophies?  Whoooo. That tourny circuit, heavy combat there. Almost as bad as Catholic school I hear.
Sorry screaming lad, but at 17, unless you're living in someplace like Iraq or Bosnia, it's highly unlikely you've seen combat. XBox don't count, sorry.


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2005)

*Moderator Note. 
  Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

  -G Ketchmark / shesulsa
  -MT Senior Moderator-*


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## Brad Dunne (Jul 5, 2005)

Kwon17, sorry you got off on such a bad footing. There are a lot of people here at MT that will be more than happy to render assistance with your journey in the martial arts. What you have already experienced, just file it under lessons learned. Not to belabor the issue, but one of your statements addressed the aspect of close-mindedness. Just remember, that can and many times is a two way street.

If I may, I would like to ask a question. Have you ever looked at, visited, other schools / styles in your area? If you haven't, I would certainly look into doing so. I would however, make it a point to go to a school that is primarily interested in self defense. My personal recommendation would be to look at Hapkido. You would find that your kicking skills will still be of great value, but you will find a much different mindset that what you currently embrace. 

 :asian:


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## arnisador (Jul 5, 2005)

Yet another "pile on the newbie" thread. How exciting.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Anyhow, Kwon ol boy.
You claim to be 17. 
And that your art has worked in "Combat"
How long did you serve, what branch, what unit, etc?
Or, do you mean you know enough to impress your friends with some trophies? Whoooo. That tourny circuit, heavy combat there. Almost as bad as Catholic school I hear.
Sorry screaming lad, but at 17, unless you're living in someplace like Iraq or Bosnia, it's highly unlikely you've seen combat. XBox don't count, sorry.[/QUOTE

Beetween me and you I can count me being in atleast 3 real life on the street encounters, and as far as injuries go the most I came out with was a bruisedshin.My first encounter was when I was 15 and walking from school,I had to go through a rough neighborhood in philly where I came arcoss 3 gang members part of the Latin Kings.While they walked passed me I heard one member say "yo theres a body come on lets take em".I then put my senses up then I continued walking.When I got halfway down the block, 1 member ran at me with a trashcan,but come one whats a trashcan to do.I sidesteped and gave him a turning kick right to the stomach and he buckled where I then gave him a knee to the chest.As the other two watched at a distance I braced myself waiting for both or 1 to attack.Both ran at me with there fist 
and I side kicked 1 to the gut and then hooked kick the other to the face dropping both of them.The 1 other encounter evolved road rage where we exchanged words and the other is a fight that broke out at a club in philly called 923.

I have been a 2nd degree black belt since January and  at my school we go to torneys mostly once a year.Oh,and 1 more thing I barely play games.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 5, 2005)

Brad Dunne said:
			
		

> Kwon17, sorry you got off on such a bad footing. There are a lot of people here at MT that will be more than happy to render assistance with your journey in the martial arts. What you have already experienced, just file it under lessons learned. Not to belabor the issue, but one of your statements addressed the aspect of close-mindedness. Just remember, that can and many times is a two way street.
> 
> If I may, I would like to ask a question. Have you ever looked at, visited, other schools / styles in your area? If you haven't, I would certainly look into doing so. I would however, make it a point to go to a school that is primarily interested in self defense. My personal recommendation would be to look at Hapkido. You would find that your kicking skills will still be of great value, but you will find a much different mindset that what you currently embrace.
> 
> :asian:


I also do bjj and boxing and I don't have a reason to to visit other schools.I do bjj and boxing because it's interesting.


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## terryl965 (Jul 5, 2005)

Sir no disrepect here but some of these folks are lending a hand that you are asking for, but yet you always have something negative to say like in the previous post. Why are you so angry with the world and before you critisize me look at my years  and my rank and if you are about respect for the Art we love, you will hold yourself with the respect your teacher has given you over your seven years in the art of TKD. Please do not lump your attitude toward these men your Master would not appreciate it at all.

Terry Lee Stoker


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## Brother John (Jul 5, 2005)

Excellent tact Terry!!!
Maybe he's a salvagable MT participant.
Humility is needed though.

Your Brother
John


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## Marginal (Jul 5, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yet another "pile on the newbie" thread. How exciting.



The rampant TKD bashing's awesome too.


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## kwon 17 (Jul 6, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Sir no disrepect here but some of these folks are lending a hand that you are asking for, but yet you always have something negative to say like in the previous post. Why are you so angry with the world and before you critisize me look at my years and my rank and if you are about respect for the Art we love, you will hold yourself with the respect your teacher has given you over your seven years in the art of TKD. Please do not lump your attitude toward these men your Master would not appreciate it at all.
> 
> Terry Lee Stoker


Sa bum nim sir,I did not mean for my words to come across negative.I just tryed to inform these people of my knowledge that I have in the MA.I did not mean for it to come out the way it did.I tryed to inform them because in my view it seemed as if they thought I had no knowledge at all and that I trained at a mcdojang.But I am sorry for the way it came across.


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## terryl965 (Jul 6, 2005)

kwon this forum is a great tool of knowledge if the chance is given, be patience and the answer you seek can be found. Most practitioners on this forum is willing to talk about a topic and give sound advise. Wisdom comes from knowledge and knowledge comes from experience, experience comes from petience my young man you have gain some experience over the last couple of days. Ask good solid question and great answers will come, remember not everybody is going to see eye to eye.

Terry Lee Stoker


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## Brother John (Jul 6, 2005)

Yes...yes....
To Mr. Stoker you listen.

Listen Kwon, there are a lot of people in Martial Talk, TKD'ists and othewise, who have a TREASURE of knowledge, skill and insight... and you'll miss it all if you are more concerned with bold statements than with questions. 

I respect that you've used your freetime in your teen years to cultivate yourself in the martial arts, I wish MORE teens would do that. In this, you and I are the same. But while many would give the nod of respect to your going on 10 years dedication... to many, it's simply a very good start...and a Black Belt, merely a sign that you have proven yourself to be a serious student. Please remember (as I also TRY to remember) that a martial artist exhibits their quality in every single thing they do... and what could be more important than how we communicate with each other? 

Humility. Patience. Kindness. Honesty. Courage. Openness to instruction and guidance. Being forthright. Seeking excellence in all we do. 
These are some of the signs of development and cultivation brought about by commitment to the martial arts....Tae Kwan Do or otherwise.
Like in the Dojang, use and build on these qualities here and you will go MUCH further than if you didn't. 
Believe me, this is a message as much for myself as for you... because I'm nothing more and nothing less than....

Your Brother
John


----------



## Miles (Jul 6, 2005)

Kwon,

Having read through this thread, I want you to know that I (probably like many others) like your passion.  Keep that always!  Temper your passion with an inquisitive mind and you will go far.

Miles


----------



## Master Dan (May 9, 2012)

One of my senior students forced me to sit and watch Foot Fist Way I hated it probably becasue much of it was true in some portions about the commercial Mc Dojo's but also very inapropriate for minors to see and unfortunately there are those who now try to speak as experts that TKD is this narrow thing? I have tortured my student properly for making me watch that but i remember when we were young making our dear departed SGM go to a theater and watch 7 houses of something really bad Kungfoo movie and all he did was hang his head and say Bull **** technique he was kind and patient but I think we paid for that one later?


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2012)

What's interesting to me about this incredible thread necro is to think that the OP was 17 when he posted this, putting him at 24 now.  I wonder if he'd be at all embarrassed by his posts in this thread, if he saw them again.


----------



## Gentle Fist (May 9, 2012)

Hopefully the OP has matured quite a bit since his last post as well


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (May 15, 2012)

I pieced the OP together from a quote of it.  I don't know if it is complete, but here it is, along with my own responses.


kwon 17 said:


> AS  AN ITF TAEKWONDO WITH 9 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE I AM TIRED OF HEARING ALL  OF THE TKD BASHERS .THAT TO ME IS AN ACT OF CLOSED MINDED AND CONFUSED  PEOPLE. 	 		 			 			 				(NO OFFENSE TKD BASHERS)





I'm with you on being tired of it.



kwon 17 said:


> FIRST OF ALL I BELIEVE WHO ARE U GUYS TO SAY O TKD SUCKS,THEY ALWAY  KICK HIGH,SINE WAVE IS DUMB AND THIS AND THAT WHEN U GUYS USUALLY GO BY  WHAT U HEAR AND SEE AT CERTAIN MCDOJANGS.
> 
> NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE LIKE AS FEW AS U UNDERSTAND.





 I agree; the art should not be judged on the basis of bad schools, as there are plenty of good schools out there as well.



kwon 17 said:


> WHEN I HEAR U GUYS SAY THIS ITS THE WORDS UED EXPECT FROM NON MARTIAL ARTIST.


It is what you'd expect to hear from people who simply like to be negative.  And MA-ists are not immune to negativity, as I see plenty of negativity on most MA boards.






kwon 17 said:


> U KNOW THE GUYS WHO ARE ALWAYS DOING THE KARATE KID CRANE THING,MAKING THE BRUCE LEE NOISE


I'm not sure if this is a part of the OP that didn't get quoted or if it is the non MA-ists the OP mentioned above.






kwon 17 said:


> NOW IT IS TRUE THAT TAE KWON DO STYLIST kick HIGH AND FOR THAT REASON I DONT KNOW.


Because we can!   That and kicking is a part of Korean culture.  Regardless of the provable amount of any actual training in taekkyeon by the pioneers, taekwondo is most certainly influenced by it, and part of takkyeon was high kicking.






kwon 17 said:


> BUT I DO KNOW IN MY SCHOOL WE ARE TOLD TO KICK BELOW THE WAIST IN AN ACTUAL STREET ACOUNTER.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The OP had originally said 'below,' but in a subsequent post said that he had meant to say above, so for the purposes of responding to his original thought, I have made the correction.

Regardless, at virtually every TKD school where I have trained, practical self defense has been taught primarily with hand techniques and with foot/let techniques being solar plexus level or below.






kwon 17 said:


> NOW I BELIEVE THERE ARE MANY CONS TO KICKING AT THE HEAD SUCH AS  LOST OF BALANCE,EXPOSURE OF YOUR LEG KEEPING U BALANCED EX.THE PROS CAN  BE AN KNOCKOUT OR THE DROPPING OF THE PERSON U KICK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


High kicks are like any other technique in self defense; use them when appropriate.  There is no self defense technique that is without both pros and cons.






kwon 17 said:


> NOW LETS GET ON SINE WAVE NOW I MYSELF WAS TAUGHT SINE WAVE  CORRECTLY BUT NOT TO THE DEGREE OF MOST ITF SCHOOLS WHERE THEY  EXAGGERATE IT.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





  No comment on any of this, as I do not practice ITF taekwondo or its associated sine wave method.



kwon 17 said:


> NOW 1 THE REASON WHY U BASHERS THINK TAEKWONDO DOESNT HAVE ANY HAND  STRIKES ARE PUNCHES BECAUSE U NEVER STAYED IN IT PAST BLACK BELT WHERE  MOST OF THE REAL HAND TECHNIQUES COME IN.


I don't know about ITF taekwondo, but the bulk of KKW pumse have always been hand techniques.  






kwon 17 said:


> TAEKWONDO ALMOST HAS THE SAME AMOUNT OF KICKS AS IT DOES HAND STRIKES IF U WANT TO GET TECHNICAL WITH IT.


Actually there are more hand/arm techniques than kicks.






kwon 17 said:


> WHY REAL TAEKWONDO HAS FALLEN APART IS BECAUSE ITS MANY INSTRUCTERS  THAT RUN MCDOJANGS,THE SPORT ORIENTATED WTF TECNIQUES,THE EXAGGERATION  OF SINE WAVE, AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT MUST INSTRUCTERS DONT  INCOPORATE ENOUGH BOXING TECHNIQUES.


Except that taekwondo hasn't fallen apart and there are no special sport oriented WTF techniques.  And why would TKD instructors teach more boxing techniques; taekwondo isn't boxing.  In fact, boxing is more sport oriented than taekwondo.






kwon 17 said:


> SOME PEOPLE ALSO BELIEVE TKD HAS NO GRABS OR PRESSURE POINTS  STRIKES.THERE ARE ENOUGH ALONE IN PATTERNS.THERE IS EVEN A NERVE STRIKE  STRIKE IN CHON JI.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Such things are found in KKW taekwondo as well.  The fact is that taekwondo is predominantly a striking art, but yes, there are other techniques in taekwondo as well.

Anyway, I responded for the benefit of people reading this thread, as Kwon17 will likely never see any of this.  Wherever he is, I wish him well.  It would be interesting to know if he's still practicing.


----------



## d1jinx (May 15, 2012)

who the hell dug up this retarded 7 year old post/thread/stupidity and why?

oh...nevermind.

threads like this should be deleted from the valuable space on the server.

AND LEFT TO DIE.............


----------



## Gnarlie (May 15, 2012)

I move for ignoring this thread for as long as it takes for it to disappear into the catacombs again.  All in favour, say 'aye'.  Actually, no, all in favour say nothing, otherwise we'll never get rid of it.


----------



## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

Gnarlie said:


> I move for ignoring this thread for as long as it takes for it to disappear into the catacombs again.  All in favour, say 'aye'.  Actually, no, all in favour say nothing, otherwise we'll never get rid of it.


I say we never get rid of it.  What a great thread.  I wonder where the OP is now.  If he was 17 when he first started this thread, he would be 32 now.  Wow...  I wonder if he's thinking about this forum now, and wondering why?


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> I say we never get rid of it.  What a great thread.  I wonder where the OP is now.  If he was 17 when he first started this thread, he would be 32 now.  Wow...  I wonder if he's thinking about this forum now, and wondering why?


AAAND wondering if he still IS AS ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIS TAEKWONDO


----------



## jobo (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> I say we never get rid of it.  What a great thread.  I wonder where the OP is now.  If he was 17 when he first started this thread, he would be 32 now.  Wow...  I wonder if he's thinking about this forum now, and wondering why?


people who object to old threads are part of the cancel culture that is sweeping the world, they start small and move on to book burning

everything old must be destroyed coz .........


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> people who object to old threads are part of the cancel culture that is sweeping the world, they start small and move on to book burning
> 
> everything old must be destroyed coz .........


I had never heard the term 'cancel culture'. It is a spot on analogy.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I had never heard the term 'cancel culture'. It is a spot on analogy.


It refers a lot to online stuff-some social media personality/tv star/radio host posted something on fb/twitter/yt 15 years ago, that's not pc by today's standards (or sometimes voice an opinion today that people don't like), or that they have since changed their opinion on, and people shout for their removal/start harassing them. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But cancel culture has definitely felt like the perfect word for it to me.


----------



## jobo (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It refers a lot to online stuff-some social media personality/tv star/radio host posted something on fb/twitter/yt 15 years ago, that's not pc by today's standards (or sometimes voice an opinion today that people don't like), or that they have since changed their opinion on, and people shout for their removal/start harassing them. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But cancel culture has definitely felt like the perfect word for it to me.


its may have started there, but its straying a lot further than that, into films books, tv shows,music, statues that someone feels doesnt reflect their view of a perfect world and they required it to be '' cancelled''

even if there is nothing at all wrong with the '' message'' but one of the stars, authors or artists is found to be suspect in their views or action, that to it seems requires it to be cancelled

there are strong parallels with the The Khmer Rouge and them cancelling all history to reinforce the right of their world view


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It refers a lot to online stuff-some social media personality/tv star/radio host posted something on fb/twitter/yt 15 years ago, that's not pc by today's standards (or sometimes voice an opinion today that people don't like), or that they have since changed their opinion on, and people shout for their removal/start harassing them. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. But cancel culture has definitely felt like the perfect word for it to me.


There have been some actual examples of this, but I think the term is being overused by people (e.g., politicians) who don't want to be held accountable for their words or actions.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> There have been some actual examples of this, but I think the term is being overused by people (e.g., politicians) who don't want to be held accountable for their words or actions.


Definitely. But people do that with everything. Just because politicians claim that a word or idea fits whatever topic that they want it to, doesn't mean the actual concept has changed.


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Definitely. But people do that with everything. Just because politicians claim that a word or idea fits whatever topic that they want it to, doesn't mean the actual concept has changed.


I hear you, but disagree somewhat.  I think the danger is exactly that the concept will be changed BECAUSE the word is being misused.  We have to be careful to remember what the word meant vs what the word means.  Co-opting vocabulary is a pretty common way to intentionally muddle conversation.  Often, the word either becomes so general it is worthless, or in more cynical examples, it can functionally become the opposite of what it once was.  And this is often intentional.  It's a strategy... a grown up version of "I know you are, but what am I?"


----------



## jobo (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> I hear you, but disagree somewhat.  I think the danger is exactly that the concept will be changed BECAUSE the word is being misused.  We have to be careful to remember what the word meant vs what the word means.  Co-opting vocabulary is a pretty common way to intentionally muddle conversation.  Often, the word either becomes so general it is worthless, or in more cynical examples, it can functionally become the opposite of what it once was.  And this is often intentional.  It's a strategy... a grown up version of "I know you are, but what am I?"


by miss used, do you mean people are using it differently than you wish them to

whilst its possible to put strict definition on individual words,  concepts are some what different

you appear to be trying to cancel language now ?


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> by miss used, do you mean people are using it differently than you wish them to
> 
> whilst its possible to put strict definition on individual words,  concepts are some what different
> 
> you appear to be trying to cancel language now ?


Lol.  Case in point.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> Lol.  Case in point.



Socialism!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Buka (Jul 16, 2020)

I find the Cancel Culture folks to be the same people who are the "time out" folks for their kids.

They all seem to raise socially unacceptable, unemployable brats.


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> AAAND wondering if he still IS AS ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT HIS TAEKWONDO


IM SO EXCITED!!!


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> Socialism!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see what you did there.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find the Cancel Culture folks to be the same people who are the "time out" folks for their kids.
> 
> They all seem to raise socially unacceptable, unemployable brats.


Now that I know what it means I fully agree.


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find the Cancel Culture folks to be the same people who are the "time out" folks for their kids.
> 
> They all seem to raise socially unacceptable, unemployable brats.


Not sure what you mean.  I put my kids on time out and they turned out to be very nice, successful, happy adults.  And they're both gainfully employed. So I guess I disagree. Kind of a broad, and ignorant brush you're painting wihn today. 

I also couldn't have been more proud of them for both choosing to protest for BLM and also help clean up the mess. 

And I have high hopes for my youngest.  So far, she's kind, empathetic, and curious.  I think she's going to do just fine, even with parents who are "time out" folks.


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Now that I know what it means I fully agree.


Do you really know what it means?  I wonder.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> Do you really know what it means?  I wonder.


Of course you do. How could anyone else be right about anything. In seriousness, I do not know the history, details, or derivations. It it not too hard to understand the general idea though.


----------



## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Of course you do. How could anyone else be right about anything. In seriousness, I do not know the history, details, or derivations. It it not too hard to understand the general idea though.


lots of folks right about lots of things. You're just not generally one of them. It's cool, though.  I can tell you pick some things up here and there.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not sure what you mean.  I put my kids on time out and they turned out to be very nice, successful, happy adults.  And they're both gainfully employed. So I guess I disagree.



We put kids (and grandkids) in time out too. Between us, we have ten kids. They're all adults now. They're all nice, successful, happy adults. And they're all gainfully employed.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find the Cancel Culture folks to be the same people who are the "time out" folks for their kids.
> 
> They all seem to raise socially unacceptable, unemployable brats.


What is a time out folk? Does that mean something unintuitive?


----------



## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What is a time out folk? Does that mean something unintuitive?


I took it to mean folks who put their kids on time out, with the presumption being that it is ineffective and leads to bratty kids who end up unemployed adults.  But I may have misunderstood.


----------



## Buka (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not sure what you mean.  I put my kids on time out and they turned out to be very nice, successful, happy adults.  And they're both gainfully employed. So I guess I disagree. Kind of a broad, and ignorant brush you're painting wihn today.
> 
> I also couldn't have been more proud of them for both choosing to protest for BLM and also help clean up the mess.
> 
> And I have high hopes for my youngest.  So far, she's kind, empathetic, and curious.  I think she's going to do just fine, even with parents who are "time out" folks.



Point taken, and actually appreciated. I find many are the exception, not the rule. But I wouldn’t put you in the category of what I’m speaking about.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 17, 2020)

Buka said:


> I find the Cancel Culture folks to be the same people who are the "time out" folks for their kids.
> 
> They all seem to raise socially unacceptable, unemployable brats.



I just wanted to see if someone could get the full set of emojies.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 17, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I just wanted to see if someone could get the full set of emojies.


We just need someone to click 'dislike' now and it'll be complete!


----------



## Steve (Jul 17, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> We just need someone to click 'dislike' now and it'll be complete!


Oh you mean on the other post.


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Gnarlie said:


> I move for ignoring this thread for as long as it takes for it to disappear into the catacombs again. All in favour, say 'aye'. Actually, no, all in favour say nothing, otherwise we'll never get rid of it.



I would love to.  Unfortunately, since OP doesn't actually have an account anymore, I can't put it on ignore.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not sure what you mean.  I put my kids on time out and they turned out to be very nice, successful, happy adults.  And they're both gainfully employed. So I guess I disagree. Kind of a broad, and ignorant brush you're painting wihn today.
> 
> I also couldn't have been more proud of them for both choosing to protest for BLM and also help clean up the mess.
> 
> And I have high hopes for my youngest.  So far, she's kind, empathetic, and curious.  I think she's going to do just fine, even with parents who are "time out" folks.


You've met my kids?


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What is a time out folk? Does that mean something unintuitive?



I assumed it to mean the parents who refuse to spank their kids and call any kind of physical discipline to be physical abuse.  Some kids just get stuck in a loop where they dig themselves a deeper and deeper hole where their behavior gets worse and worse, and they need a little bit of a shock to remind them that their behavior has consequences.

It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm.  It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort).  And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down).


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> You've met my kids?



I disagree that joining racist causes is something to be proud of.  But then again, you're pro-segregation, so I shouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> I disagree that joining racist causes is something to be proud of.  But then again, you're pro-segregation, so I shouldn't be surprised.


Whoa.  That's uncalled for, man.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> I assumed it to mean the parents who refuse to spank their kids and call any kind of physical discipline to be physical abuse.  Some kids just get stuck in a loop where they dig themselves a deeper and deeper hole where their behavior gets worse and worse, and they need a little bit of a shock to remind them that their behavior has consequences.
> 
> It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm.  It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort).  And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down).


There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.  

Interestingly, same thing in dog training.  Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Whoa.  That's uncalled for, man.



You're the one who brought it up, not me.  You're the one who asked for further clarification of what I meant, when I was happy just to mark "disagree" and move on.  I think that posting racist comments is uncalled for, but you seem proud to boast them.



Steve said:


> There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.
> 
> Interestingly, same thing in dog training.  Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.



My degree is in psychology.  I know a thing or two about how the human mind works.

Also, I was spanked as a kid.  I've seen situations in which my nephew had to be spanked.  It always worked to stop the behavior.  I was never traumatized or scared of my parents because of it.  I've also had several dogs that I've loved and cherished.  I've bopped them on the nose, and it's curbed that behavior.  They were never scared of me, and still loved me.

There's this thing called "reality".  You might want to try living in it.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> You're the one who brought it up, not me.  You're the one who asked for further clarification of what I meant, when I was happy just to mark "disagree" and move on.  I think that posting racist comments is uncalled for, but you seem proud to boast them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids?  A professional dog trainer?  Are you even a parent?  Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.

Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data.  Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs?   Something recent would be preferred.


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids? A professional dog trainer? Are you even a parent? Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.
> 
> Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data. Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs? Something recent would be preferred.



You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."

That is patently false.  I've seen it work.  It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false.  I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect.  You can move the goalposts all you want.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."
> 
> That is patently false.  I've seen it work.  It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false.  I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect.  You can move the goalposts all you want.


Sorry man.   That’s just not how this works.  As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this.  Also, you know that your post isn’t data.  I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective.  Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.

all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb.  You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent.  You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child. 

This doesn’t mean you’re wrong,  it just means In order to be credible, that needs to come from a credible, outside source.  

Edit to add that the significant research exists, independently of whether you or I say it does,   I can provide some links, or you could just google it.  I actually tried to find anything from anywhere at all credible supporting corporal punishment, and couldn’t find a thing.  So, I’m counting on you.


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sorry man.   That’s just not how this works.  As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this.  Also, you know that your post isn’t data.  I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective.  Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.
> 
> all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb.  You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent.  You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child.
> 
> ...



My post quite literally is data.  The fact you reject that data because of your own prejudices is not my failing.


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> My post quite literally is data.  The fact you reject that data because of your own prejudices is not my failing.


But is it credible?  The issue isn't whether you are saying things or not.  It is whether your statements are credible or not.  And I'm patiently explaining to you that they are not credible alone.  If you could point me to some credible support for your statements, we'd be off to the races.  That you are to this point not willing to provide credible support for your statements is conspicuous.

Edit.  Sorry, just to add that your posts aren't data.  They're unqualified assertions.  I would welcome data.


----------



## Buka (Jul 19, 2020)

Aaaaaaaaand the race is on to see how many threads we can get locked in a single month!


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

Buka said:


> Aaaaaaaaand the race is on to see how many threads we can get locked in a single month!


Noted.  I'll stop.


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Edit. Sorry, just to add that your posts aren't data. They're unqualified assertions. I would welcome data.



My post had several points of data.  My experience, my observations of my nephew, and my experience with several dogs.  These are all data points of people or dogs that have had mild corporal punishment, with it having the desired effect on behavior and having no lasting repercussions.

You rejected that data.  You gave excuses as to why (because I don't have kids myself, because you assume I've never worked with kids, and as it goes on you've moved the goalposts as to what would make me a "credible" source in your eyes).  But my experiences are facts.  You rejected those facts because they disagree with your opinions.  When you reject facts that disagree with your opinions, two things happen:

I know your opinion is not based on fact.
I know you won't accept future facts I provide.
You've backed the conversation into a corner where there's no way to continue.  

For what it's worth, social sciences are always opinions.  There are facts involved, but any conclusions about what those facts mean or what to do with those facts are all opinions.  There's a big difference between a physicist describing gravity and a psychologist describing childhood.  There's a big difference between a geologist describing plate tectonics, and a sociologist describing a culture.  Most social sciences are either opinions based on facts, or opinions based on other opinions.  That opinion becomes less relevant when you ignore facts that disagree with it (like you have).


----------



## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Buka said:


> Aaaaaaaaand the race is on to see how many threads we can get locked in a single month!



Let's go for it!


----------



## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> My post had several points of data.  My experience, my observations of my nephew, and my experience with several dogs.  These are all data points of people or dogs that have had mild corporal punishment, with it having the desired effect on behavior and having no lasting repercussions.
> 
> You rejected that data.  You gave excuses as to why (because I don't have kids myself, because you assume I've never worked with kids, and as it goes on you've moved the goalposts as to what would make me a "credible" source in your eyes).  But my experiences are facts.  You rejected those facts because they disagree with your opinions.  When you reject facts that disagree with your opinions, two things happen:
> 
> ...


Okay man. Best of luck to you.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> So, you are a therapist? Do a lot of work with kids?  A professional dog trainer?  Are you even a parent?  Just trying to figure out much weight your earnest opinion warrants over that of industry experts and my own relevant experience.
> 
> Edit, you know I was going to share some research links, but honestly, I think it would be easier for you to just show me your data.  Can you point me to some data that supports corporal punishment for humans or even dogs?   Something recent would be preferred.


Why don't you enlighten us with your relevant experience?


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## dvcochran (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sorry man.   That’s just not how this works.  As a person who purports to having some kind of degree in psychology, surely you know this.  Also, you know that your post isn’t data.  I will gladly consider any credible source you can provide. Any study from the last 20 or so years that concludes corporal punishment is useful and effective.  Heck, I’d even settle for one that touts it over time outs.
> 
> all that said, unless you can actually produce some credible sources, I’m going to conclude you’re out on a limb.  You aren’t individually credible to opine on any part of this, given you’re not a therapist (much less a pediatric therapist), not a professional dog trainer, and not a parent.  You don’t have the experience or training with humans, with animals, or even as a person raising a child.
> 
> ...


After a cursory search I do see it is difficult to find articles written from the proponents perspective. However, from the proponents perspective, it is interesting that everything I read points out that it is still federally legal and still used in the school systems of 21 states. Clearly, the majority is still in favor of using it.
 To me it is much more about the 'how' of corporal punishment. I believe it effectiveness cannot be disputed.


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Why don't you enlighten us with your relevant experience?


Oh, outside of raising kids and having trained about a dozen dogs, I'm  no expert. That's why I rely on bona fide experts and credible data.


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## Steve (Jul 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> After a cursory search I do see it is difficult to find articles written from the proponents perspective. However, from the proponents perspective, it is interesting that everything I read points out that it is still federally legal and still used in the school systems of 21 states. Clearly, the majority is still in favor of using it.
> To me it is much more about the 'how' of corporal punishment. I believe it effectiveness cannot be disputed.


Err....  21 states is less than a majority of states.  

And, as with @skribs you might believe that it can't be disputed, but the experts disagree with you.


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## skribs (Jul 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> Err....  21 states is less than a majority of states.
> 
> And, as with @skribs you might believe that it can't be disputed, but the experts disagree with you.



I wish you would have made two posts, because I completely agree with one of your statements, and completely disagree with the other.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 19, 2020)

skribs said:


> You said: "There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best."
> 
> That is patently false.  I've seen it work.  It only takes one time of it working to prove your statement false.  I've provided enough data to prove your point incorrect.  You can move the goalposts all you want.



The way I read the quote, the statement is that there is a large amount of research that shows lots of potential for negative outcomes. Your personal observations and anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the research. It simply means that in your experience corporal punishment has “worked.” 

Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term. 

You haven’t observed any negative effects in yourself or in the dogs you’ve had, but I don’t believe you can definitively say that no negative outcomes exist. I was spanked occasionally as a child and believe that I turned out ok, too, but who knows  if that’s totally true? People are quite often unaware of their own issues. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Jul 20, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> The way I read the quote, the statement is that there is a large amount of research that shows lots of potential for negative outcomes. Your personal observations and anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the research. It simply means that in your experience corporal punishment has “worked.”
> 
> Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term.
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong, I am aware of plenty of my own issues.  I just know that none of them are the result of trauma from being spanked.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 20, 2020)

skribs said:


> Don't get me wrong, I am aware of plenty of my own issues.  I just know that none of them are the result of trauma from being spanked.



How can you KNOW that, though? It might be true, but I don’t believe it can be proven. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 20, 2020)

Steve said:


> There is a pretty significant body of research to suggest that corporal punishment causes lasting harm at worst, and just doesn't work, at best.
> 
> Interestingly, same thing in dog training.  Ask a dog trainer if it's a good idea to swat your dog with a rolled up paper and see what they say.



I have trained dogs thru the Koehler method. Great results.


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## Steve (Jul 20, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have trained dogs thru the Koehler method. Great results.


I'm not familiar with that term, but the methods seem very familiar.  I have rescued a lot of dogs, mostly (all but one) were adult giant breeds.  I've adopted them from 18 months old up to over 3, which for a giant breed is approaching middle aged and have never trained any of them for a job (guarding or herding or whatever), though.  I've had a lot of success with a blend of positive and negative reinforcement, emphasis on the positive reinforcement.  

Most of the dogs I've adopted adjust pretty well, but they've all been through some kind of trauma and a few had some real hangups to overcome.  I have a pyranees right now, he's five years old now, and I've had him for about two years.  When I first brought him home, he was pretty much afraid of everything.  Took six months of positive reinforcement to get him to take a walk further than our driveway.   Gus is an anxious chewer, and as a Great Pyranees, he can do a lot of damage pretty quick, but we got him to where he only chews on his nylabones now. 

I've never had to yell at any of the dogs, and would never hit them (on their nose or anywhere else).


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 25, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> ..
> 
> Most studies I have seen agree that corporal punishment has a positive effect on immediate compliance, but has many potential negative outcomes long term.
> 
> ...



I'll add my own data point. It took me around 30 years to understand the effects of being "punished" .

I grew up to be very distant. You only have yourself.

In my younger days, a girl would say "I love you". I would think, "yeah, just wait. I'll do something without thinking that disappoints you,then we'll see".

Parents say "I love you" then 2 hours later you drop a plate by accident and you run to try in vain hide to avoid getting hit. The lesson learnt is "love" doesn't mean much.

Now that I am married with a daughter, and see domestic violence in society, I think it is a very very bad message to give a girl that love and hitting go together.  I won't be adding to the cycle.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 25, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> There are a lot of benefits to doing TKD.  It is great for kids and young adults who are new to martial arts.  It seems to be the common "break in" style.  It is excellent for physical fitness, flexibility, and can teach students respect and self discipline.



Back on topic, one of the key benefits for kids these days is just getting away from the phones and doing some activity of any sort.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'll add my own data point. It took me around 30 years to understand the effects of being "punished" .
> 
> I grew up to be very distant. You only have yourself.
> 
> ...



This is why I said very clearly in my post:
_"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."
_
If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear.  If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up.  And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.

If I broke a plate on accident, and they said to clean it up, and I said something like "I didn't do it" or "I'm not cleaning it up," then it would escalate.  Let's just follow the first one (so we don't have to deal with every branch).

They would tell me they saw me do it.  If I realize that I was caught in my lie, I would admit it and clean it up.  If I was being stubborn, I'd say I didn't.
If I continue to lie, they will start to take away privileges.  I might get no computer games, no TV, sent to my room, etc.  At this point, depending on the punishment, I might have to clean it up (to avoid losing more privileges) or go to my room.  We'd have a talk later.  If I was being obstinate, I'd say I didn't.
If I continue to lie, continue to refuse to clean up my mess, and/or don't go to my room, then it escalates.  Instead of no computer games for the rest of the night, it might be the weekend.  We would go to Chuck E Cheese once a week if I was good; that might be taken away.  At this point, if I was being stubborn, I might start arguing or yelling at my parents.
If I were to continue to be disobedient and disrespectful, I would get a spanking.  One important thing is that it was never directly part of the escalation.  It was a sentence handed out to me wherever the argument was.  But it was delivered in another room.  This gave me time to reflect on what I'd done, and made it clear that it was a punishment, and not a reaction.
I agree 100% that if a broken plate means you get hit as soon as your parent sees it, that's bad.  That creates that situation you describe, where people are terrified of anyone with authority over them, resentful of their parents, and have a very broken view of what love is.

I also believe 100% that kids need to learn to control their tantrums.  If the spanking is the consequence for breaking the plate, that's bad.  If it's the consequence for losing control of yourself, that's a different story.  That's not to say kids shouldn't have emotions or shouldn't react to things.  But kids need to learn that there are lines that - if crossed - result in punishment.  I don't have the data to back it up, but I imagine that most of the people who will just scream at a retail worker, or who will go up to living statues and start groping them (and then are shocked when they get punched) have never been spanked.

With that said, if you fear that you will continue the cycle of abuse, instead of taking a more conservative approach to spanking, then it makes sense that you yourself don't want to spank your kids.  Just don't think that everyone who spanks their kids is the type of person who will hit them at the drop of a hat (or plate).

To bring it in line with martial arts, think of it like this:

If your first reaction to any insult is to start throwing punches, this is assault
If you will never raise your fists in self-defense, even if someone is trying to kill you or your family, then you will not be able to protect yourself or your loved ones
If you will try to de-escalate situations when you can, but will throw fists when your safety (or your family's safety) is threatened, then that is what we call self-defense
To me, that's the difference between spanking and abuse.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Back on topic, one of the key benefits for kids these days is just getting away from the phones and doing some activity of any sort.



Now that we're doing Zoom classes, those two aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Steve (Jul 25, 2020)

skribs said:


> This is why I said very clearly in my post:
> _"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."
> _
> If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear.  If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up.  And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.
> ...


Strictly my opinions based on my experiences.  Not to suggest this is an exclusive club, but like a lot of folks on this forum, I've raised a few kids.  My opinion is that creating situations like this one is all on the parent.  In other words, if a kid breaks a plate and the focus of the situation is on whether the kid will clean it up, the parent has lost control of that situation.  I think parents (and adults in general) are teaching our kids something all the time.  The question is, what are we teaching them?  

There is no question who broke the plate, so it's a matter of what you're teaching the kid. Are you teaching them to not overreact, not lie, and help fix the mistake?  Or are you teaching them that any mistake no matter how small is a big deal, and it's better to risk lying about it, because you're going to be punished anyway?  

Empathy, kindness, integrity, and resilience.  These are my priorities.  I've found that coaching combined with positive and negative reinforcement is much more reliable, more effective, and less damaging to the kids.  Instead of laying traps for the kids, "Did you get your math homework done?"  Say, "Hey, I noticed you still have some math homework to do.  What's your plan?  Did you have some questions?"  Instead of saying, "Did you break this plate?" Say, ""Oh no.  You broke the plate. Be careful of the glass.  I'll start cleaning that up. Go get the broom and dustpan and give me a hand." 


> They would tell me they saw me do it.  If I realize that I was caught in my lie, I would admit it and clean it up.  If I was being stubborn, I'd say I didn't.
> If I continue to lie, they will start to take away privileges.  I might get no computer games, no TV, sent to my room, etc.  At this point, depending on the punishment, I might have to clean it up (to avoid losing more privileges) or go to my room.  We'd have a talk later.  If I was being obstinate, I'd say I didn't.
> If I continue to lie, continue to refuse to clean up my mess, and/or don't go to my room, then it escalates.  Instead of no computer games for the rest of the night, it might be the weekend.  We would go to Chuck E Cheese once a week if I was good; that might be taken away.  At this point, if I was being stubborn, I might start arguing or yelling at my parents.
> If I were to continue to be disobedient and disrespectful, I would get a spanking.  One important thing is that it was never directly part of the escalation.  It was a sentence handed out to me wherever the argument was.  But it was delivered in another room.  This gave me time to reflect on what I'd done, and made it clear that it was a punishment, and not a reaction.




This escalation may seem perfectly reasonable to you, and I'll just first say that parenting is a zero sum game.  No one's the perfect parent, and few kids emerge from childhood without a few physical and emotional scars.  That's life.  However, if this were me and my kids, and the above occurred, I would consider that a huge failure on my part as the parent.  The four bullets above represent a failure on the part of the parent to control the situation, teach constructive life lessons, and allow the punishment to escalate far beyond the situation warrants. And frankly, I can't imagine any crime that would warrant hitting the child.  Ever.  


> I also believe 100% that kids need to learn to control their tantrums.  If the spanking is the consequence for breaking the plate, that's bad.  If it's the consequence for losing control of yourself, that's a different story.  That's not to say kids shouldn't have emotions or shouldn't react to things.  But kids need to learn that there are lines that - if crossed - result in punishment.  I don't have the data to back it up, but I imagine that most of the people who will just scream at a retail worker, or who will go up to living statues and start groping them (and then are shocked when they get punched) have never been spanked.


You're going to hit a kid for throwing a tantrum?   You know how many times each of my kids threw a tantrum?  Once each.  You know how many times I beat them in their lives?  Zero.  


> With that said, if you fear that you will continue the cycle of abuse, instead of taking a more conservative approach to spanking, then it makes sense that you yourself don't want to spank your kids.  Just don't think that everyone who spanks their kids is the type of person who will hit them at the drop of a hat (or plate).


I totally think that folks who beat their kids for any reason are exactly like that.  I don't judge most parenting, but I most definitely judge folks who beat their kids.  Just no reason for it. 


> To bring it in line with martial arts, think of it like this:
> 
> If your first reaction to any insult is to start throwing punches, this is assault
> If you will never raise your fists in self-defense, even if someone is trying to kill you or your family, then you will not be able to protect yourself or your loved ones
> ...


Spanking is abuse.  There is no nexus to martial arts.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jul 25, 2020)

skribs said:


> This is why I said very clearly in my post:
> _"It obviously shouldn't be anything that causes lasting harm. It shouldn't be your go-to option (more of a last resort). And it should be followed up with a discussion (once the kid has calmed down)."
> _
> If physical punishment is the go-to for any transgression, then yes - it will result in fear.  If I dropped a plate by accident, my parents would tell me to clean it up.  And I would clean it up and that would be the end of it.
> ...



Thanks for the comments.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

Steve said:


> There is no question who broke the plate, so it's a matter of what you're teaching the kid. Are you teaching them to not overreact, not lie, and help fix the mistake? Or are you teaching them that any mistake no matter how small is a big deal, and it's better to risk lying about it, because you're going to be punished anyway?



This was entirely my point (which for some reason you disagreed with after).  I was never spanked for any one action I did.  If I was spanked, it was for cumulative actions for which I had many, many outs (given to my by my parents) and I refused at every level.  If I admitted to breaking the plate, the *only* consequence is that I had to take responsibility and clean it up.  If I refused to clean it up, there were other punishments given.  Each successive punishment was not the result of breaking the plate, it was the result of my failure to own up to it and be respectful to my parents.

In fact, what I learned is exactly what you described.  Mistakes can be made.  Risking lying about it is what was going to get me in trouble.  Lying about it was the *only *thing that got me in trouble.

I was never afraid after breaking a plate.  As I got older, if I broke a plate, I would clean it up, and then tell my parents I broke a plate.  I'd get "thanks for letting me know."  That's because I was never spanked for anything I did to start an argument with my parents.  I was spanked because of my continued disrespect and misbehavior.



Steve said:


> You're going to hit a kid for throwing a tantrum? You know how many times each of my kids threw a tantrum? Once each. You know how many times I beat them in their lives? Zero.



Each kid is different.  Sounds like your kids didn't need spankings.  Prisons exist, and certainly some people deserve to go there.  But they're also usually a last-resort.  Most people don't need prisons.  Most people should fear going to prison if they commit a crime.  

I certainly needed the few I got.  My nephew needed the few he got.  

I'll also say there is clearly a difference between a spanking and a beating.  In addition to what I've mentioned before (regarding beatings being an off-the-cuff response and spankings being handled more formally), a spanking is done in such a way that there's no lasting pain or marks.  The pain would last literally a few seconds.  It was a light slap with no follow-through, onto what it probably the most padded part of the human body.  My friends and I would roughhouse and hit each other harder than that.  I've taken harder hits in light-contact sparring than I ever took from a spanking.

I don't know what other people picture when they hear "spanking".  I don't know if you're picturing several full-force hits with a belt or a weapon.  If you are, then understand that that's not how spanking is for everyone.  For me, it was more like one hit, like you'd use to kill a mosquito that's on yourself or your friend.  

On the other hand, if you consider that single light hit to a well-padded to be the equivalent of a hard smack across the face, giving your kid a black eye, or repeatedly hitting them over and over again...then I'd say you've made this into a binary option instead of a scale with different degrees.


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## Steve (Jul 25, 2020)

There is no difference between spanking and beating a child. They both describe a parent hitting a child believing the child deserves it.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

Steve said:


> There is no difference between spanking and beating a child. They both describe a parent hitting a child believing the child deserves it.



We've reached the root of the problem, then.  You are incapable of understanding nuance.  You are incapable of separating the physical and emotional damage of a full-fledged beating, from the benefits of a light spanking.

Personally, I think there's a big difference between something where the biggest consequence is 3 seconds of minor pain, and something where you have lasting scars or hospital trips to repair broken bones.  By lumping them all in together, you've eliminated any chance of a rational discussion on the topic.


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## Steve (Jul 25, 2020)

skribs said:


> We've reached the root of the problem, then.  You are incapable of understanding nuance.  You are incapable of separating the physical and emotional damage of a full-fledged beating, from the benefits of a light spanking.
> 
> Personally, I think there's a big difference between something where the biggest consequence is 3 seconds of minor pain, and something where you have lasting scars or hospital trips to repair broken bones.  By lumping them all in together, you've eliminated any chance of a rational discussion on the topic.


Mostly right, though I would say I'm unwilling, not incapable.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> I don't think of them as exactly the same thing, but I do think they are both forms of abuse.  Is spanking a kid the same as breaking his arm or slamming his head against the wall?  No.  However it is hitting someone who can't defend themselves.



What makes it "abuse".  You've defined it as hitting someone who can't defend themselves.  But I can guarantee with 100% certainty that my being spanked has not left me traumatized and it never even caused temporary damage.  

At this point, calling it "abuse" seems nebulous.


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## skribs (Jul 25, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> There are lots of forms of abuse and I agree it might not always be clear.  I believe that striking someone who can't defend themselves, in the case of a young child, is a form of abuse. Regardless of how much damage it does or does not do to the victims.



Why is that abuse?


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## Steve (Jul 25, 2020)

skribs said:


> Why is that abuse?


Skribs, you need to let this drop.  You're out on a limb here without any support at all.  No reasonable person agrees with you.  This is an unreasonable position.  It's outdated.  Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> Skribs, you need to let this drop.  Y..................... Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."


If you equate "Beating" and "Spanking" there is no further point to the discussion.


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## Steve (Jul 26, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> If you equate "Beating" and "Spanking" there is no further point to the discussion.


Yes.  Exactly what I was saying to @skribs.  I don't think you get a pass for using a belt, paddle, or your open hand.  You're still physically striking a child and that's just wrong.

It also isn't very effective parenting.

I do appreciate the folks who hit their kids identifying themselves.  Good to know what's in people's hearts.


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## skribs (Jul 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> Skribs, you need to let this drop.  You're out on a limb here without any support at all.  No reasonable person agrees with you.  This is an unreasonable position.  It's outdated.  Beating kids to teach them lessons is one of those things we look back on as a society and say, "damn, we should have known better ."


The nice thing about recognizing authority, is I also recognize who has no authority over me.


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## skribs (Jul 26, 2020)

Steve said:


> *Good to know what's in people's hearts*.



Oh if we're going to go there, this thread is going to be locked by noon.  Because I've never advocated hurting a kid or beating a kid (which you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference...and if that's "unwilling" instead, it makes your position even weaker).  I've already gotten a warning from the mods for the criticisms I can give based on your comments in this thread, so I won't give them again.  But I don't see you having any sort of moral highground at all, nor do I see you as any sort of role model to look up to.  In fact, it's quite the opposite.  The more you tell me I'm wrong, based on what I know about you, the more I'm thinking I'm correct.


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## Steve (Jul 26, 2020)

skribs said:


> Oh if we're going to go there, this thread is going to be locked by noon.  Because I've never advocated hurting a kid or beating a kid (which you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference...and if that's "unwilling" instead, it makes your position even weaker).  I've already gotten a warning from the mods for the criticisms I can give based on your comments in this thread, so I won't give them again.  But I don't see you having any sort of moral highground at all, nor do I see you as any sort of role model to look up to.  In fact, it's quite the opposite.  The more you tell me I'm wrong, based on what I know about you, the more I'm thinking I'm correct.


Okay.  Have a nice day.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

As someone who  trained TKD for 6 years, all the bashing is well deserved IMO. You can use the techniques, obviously, but the training deserves every bashing it gets, and then some!


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## dvcochran (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> As someone who  trained TKD for 6 years, all the bashing is well deserved IMO. You can use the techniques, obviously, but the training deserves every bashing it gets, and then some!


That opinion would have to be Very school/instructor specific. Trying to paint all TKD as bad is unrealistic.
What style/system TKD do you have experience in?


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That opinion would have to be Very school/instructor specific. Trying to paint all TKD as bad is unrealistic.



Not really. The curriculums are independent of instructors.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

I can qualify my statement since we had a guy who came from a TKD +Kickboxing background. He learned the kicks from TaeKwonDo but not patterns, and did both ITF and Kickboxing sparring.

 Same level of athlete, same amount of years training.. Kicked my butt sparring. Guys who've trained far longer than him, equal athletic abilities but only TKD school I held my own against for 6 years.. Every single one. Suddenly I faced head movement, real boxing, and yet the same speedy kicks. It was not a pleasent experience. It felt like I was a car from the 80s facing a modern Tesla.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I can qualify my statement since we had a guy who came from a TKD +Kickboxing background. He learned the kicks from TaeKwonDo but not patterns, and did both ITF and Kickboxing sparring.
> 
> Same level of athlete, same amount of years training.. Kicked my butt sparring. Guys who've trained far longer than him, equal athletic abilities but only TKD school I held my own against for 6 years.. Every single one. Suddenly I faced head movement, real boxing, and yet the same speedy kicks. It was not a pleasent experience. It felt like I was a car from the 80s facing a modern Tesla.


Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.

1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.

2: Your school was not training you guys properly for an actual fight/sparring.

3: Your hypothesis-that TKD does not train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.
    3B: your style of TKD (idk if you did ITF, WT, Norris-TKD or what) doesn't train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.

If you want to provide experiential proof for this, you would need a lot more than to extrapolate off your experience sparring that one guy. Couple steps that you'd have to do:

A: Have other people in your dojo spar him (I assume this happened but you didn't mention it). If you don't, then for whatever reason his style could just counter yours.

B: Spar with other kickboxers from whatever gym he learned kickboxing from. This will tell you if he was an exception for his school/more skilled than his level should be for sparring. 

C: Spar with people from other TKD dojangs. Ideally from multiple styles, and not your 'sister dojangs'. This will tell you if your school is worse than TKD in general. 

D: Spar with people from other kickboxing clubs/gyms. This will tell you if his school is better than the average kickboxing club.

For extra fun, there's also a 4th option of what your experience could mean.

4: TKD/your school is about as good as other schools, but kickboxing (or his specific school) is leagues above everything else in your area. To test this, you would need to add steps E and F.

E: Spar with people from other styles (karate/MT/Kenpo/WC).

F: Have people from other styles spar him. 

Basically, it amounts to-you need to spar a huge number of people, both in and out of your style, to figure out if your statement has any actual validity.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.
> 
> 1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.
> 
> ...



Both are true, although 1 is a bit of a hyperbole.  had I not wasted half my time on patterns I would have more likely been able to match him in sparring.


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## Buka (Aug 1, 2020)

I've visited and trained in quite a few schools over the years. TKD schools as well.

I have yet to see many schools that train the same way.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.
> 
> 1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter. If two people of equal kicking skills kickbox, and only one of them knows how to box, the guy who knows how to box will most likely get on top.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Both are true, although 1 is a bit of a hyperbole.  had I not wasted half my time on patterns I would have more likely been able to match him in sparring.


But the point is you can't know which option is correct until you perform tests (examples listed below in my other post) to determine it. He may have been good, or you may just suck. Or your school may just suck. Or your style may just suck. But you don't know from just sparring him and your dojang-mates.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It doesn't matter. If two people of equal kicking skills kickbox, and only one of them knows how to box, the guy who knows how to box will most likely get on top.


Yup, but the question is why. Is it inherit in tkd that you don't learn how to box, like you're suggesting?


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup, but the question is why. Is it inherit in tkd that you don't learn how to box, like you're suggesting?



Yes, it is inherent. So what happens when you faces someone who boxes is first of all a very hard time reading the shots because you aren't used to chains of punches. You also don't develop any boxing defense, all you can do is to stand side ways and try to fend them off with your legs. Even Raymond Daniels who is a far superior kicker to everybody he faced, got trashed by two Muay Thai fighters three times in a row, and stood no chance.

It looks like this






or even worse like this


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes, it is inherent. So what happens when you faces someone who boxes is first of all a very hard time reading the shots because you aren't used to chains of punches. You also don't develop any boxing defense, all you can do is to stand side ways and try to fend them off with your legs. Even Raymond Daniels who is a far superior kicker to everybody he faced, got trashed by two Muay Thai fighters three times in a row, and stood no chance.


I don't think you understand my question. I'm not asking you if it's inherent in TKD. You already clearly believe that. I'm asking _why _you think that. Is this experience just from your own school, or have you gone to other TKD schools, and seen how they fight/sparred with them to actually determine this? With those other schools, are they in the same subset of TKD, or have they been different subsets? How many schools have you gone to to determine this is inherent in TKD? 
Have you gone to TKD tournaments, in different styles of TKD (more than just kukkiwon)? Is this your experience from participating in those as well?

If your experience is just from your school/sister TKD schools, then you don't know that it's inherent in TKD. Just that it's inherent in your school. And keep in mind, I've got no skin in the game-TKD is one of the few styles I've never even tried. It's just important to realize whether an issue is person-specific, school-specific or style-specific, because recognizing that helps your figure out how to improve.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't think you understand my question. I'm not asking you if it's inherent in TKD. You already clearly believe that. I'm asking _why _you think that. Is this experience just from your own school, or have you gone to other TKD schools, and seen how they fight/sparred with them to actually determine this? .



Yes, I have. I'm also well read on the subject. They can't box unless they do a hybrid school, and if they do, my criticism does not apply since it's no longer a TKD or Karate school, but a hybrid one.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes, I have. I'm also well read on the subject. They can't box unless they do a hybrid school, and if they do, my criticism does not apply since it's no longer a TKD or Karate school, but a hybrid one.


Okay. This is what you should have posted in the beginning-you going to multiple TKD schools is the relevant information for your point, not your experience against one kickboxer. How many TKD schools have you been to?


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.
> 
> 1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.
> 
> ...



Has there been any evidence on the TKD side of this argument other than anecdotes?


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay. This is what you should have posted in the beginning-you going to multiple TKD schools is the relevant information for your point, not your experience against one kickboxer. How many TKD schools have you been to?



What difference does it make? I know what's formally part of the art and what's not . I wrote that schools that are hybrid do not apply, and that goes without saying. I wasn't saying that hybrid TKD schools deserve the bashing they get.

You agree with me that not knowing how to box is most likely a crucial component, so why are you arguing with a proposition you agree with?


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Has there been any evidence on the TKD side of this argument other than anecdotes?



Evidence of what?


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Evidence of what?



That it stands up to par with other modern striking styles. 

I know trying to get anything other than anecdotes from your average poster is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. So after 8 pages of what I imagine is personal opinion and experience to suddenly demand data. Just would seem a bit one sided.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> That it stands up to par with other modern striking styles.
> .



Raymond Daniels who is both Kempo and TKD has more world championship titles than I have underwear and you saw the massacre against good MT fighters. I can assure you Daniels kicking prowess is at the very very top, and his hands aren't bad by TMA standards.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Raymond Daniels who is both Kempo and TKD has more world championship titles than I have underwear and you saw the massacre against good MT fighters. I can assure you Daniels kicking prowess is at the very very top, and his hands aren't bad by TMA standards.



Yeah but that is one system. Not all of TKD.

Do you train under Daniels? or adopt his method?

Because quite often we see justification for an unsuccessful method by pointing at a completely different method.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2020)

So if your TKD is doing something like this.






Then Mabye you will have some sort of success with TKD and fighting people.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> So if your TKD is doing something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He can beat 5000 people for all I care. As soon as he faces a strong opponent, he gets crushed. Nicky holtzen even half assed it in the rematch and it was just as easy.

And Daniels is more merited in his background than those guys are in theirs.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but that is one system. Not all of TKD.
> .



If he practices different patterns from me has no bearing on the fact that boxing is lacking in his fighting.


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## drop bear (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He can beat 5000 people for all I care. As soon as he faces a strong opponent, he gets crushed. Nicky holtzen even half assed it in the rematch and it was just as easy.
> 
> And Daniels is more merited in his background than those guys are in theirs.



Not really. If you can find yourself a Bellator ranked fighter as your instructor I think you would be doing ok. 

That you haven't got the top ranked guy for your three days a week hobby. May not be as big an issue there. 

Now if you can find a guy with awesome hands train with him as well. Every bit you get is good.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What difference does it make? I know what's formally part of the art and what's not . I wrote that schools that are hybrid do not apply, and that goes without saying. I wasn't saying that hybrid TKD schools deserve the bashing they get.
> 
> You agree with me that not knowing how to box is most likely a crucial component, so why are you arguing with a proposition you agree with?


My point was in response to you saying TKD deserves bashing, and qualifying that with your anecdotal experience. Obviously knowing how to use your hands (whether or not that's boxing) is important. But you were suggesting that TKD didn't, based on your experience with your school/sparring one kickboxer. That's why I wanted to know if you had more experience than just that-since that's not evidence. Since you do, that's what you should have qualified your initial statement with, it would've saved a page of responses for both of us.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Has there been any evidence on the TKD side of this argument other than anecdotes?


No clue, but I'm not making any claim that TKD is useful. I've never trained it and like I said I have no skin in the game either way. 

But if someone were to make that claim, and used an example of them beating one kickboxer in a sparring match (unless that kickboxer was a K-1 champ or something), I'd have issue with that as well.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 1, 2020)

drop bear said:


> That it stands up to par with other modern striking styles.
> 
> I know trying to get anything other than anecdotes from your average poster is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. So after 8 pages of what I imagine is personal opinion and experience to suddenly demand data. Just would seem a bit one sided.


I'm not even asking for legitimate data. Just to know if he has enough experience to support his statement.

As for the previous 8 pages, the first 3 or so was from 8 years ago, and the rest seems to be mostly about whether or not it's good to hit your kids. And there was requests in there for posters to back up their statements with data, who unsurprisingly decided to instead opt for discussing personal experience and ignore any requests for data. So it's not even a sudden demand in this thread.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What difference does it make?



Because there are literally hundreds of thousands of people teaching TKD, from piles of different systems. Sample size matters. A sample size of 4 out of, say, 300,000 is meaningless.



> I know what's formally part of the art and what's not .



Really? You're sure about that? Care to tell me what is and isn't a part of TKD MDK?


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## skribs (Aug 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not really. The curriculums are independent of instructors.



If you're going to be so arrogant, you should probably fact-check yourself first.

The curriculums in Taekwondo are pretty much left up to the Master of each school.  For example, in KKW, the only requirements are that you do 8 Taegeuks.  Even then, some schools don't even do those.  What punches, kicks, etc. you learn and how you learn is entirely up to the local school.  Anything else you learn is up to the local school as well.  I guarantee you 100% that if you came to my school from any other, you would not have the same curriculum, because much of what goes on our test is specific to our school.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> My point was in response to you saying TKD deserves bashing, and qualifying that with your anecdotal experience. Obviously knowing how to use your hands (whether or not that's boxing) is important. But you were suggesting that TKD didn't, based on your experience with your school/sparring one kickboxer. That's why I wanted to know if you had more experience than just that-since that's not evidence. Since you do, that's what you should have qualified your initial statement with, it would've saved a page of responses for both of us.



I did not say use your hands, I said box. My argument applies exactly the same to karate. Raymond Daniels Kempo black belt did not help one bit.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

[ä


Dirty Dog said:


> Because there are literally hundreds of thousands of people teaching TKD, from piles of different systems. Sample size matters. A sample size of 4 out of, say, 300,000 is meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You're sure about that? Care to tell me what is and isn't a part of TKD MDK?



I know what isn't and how woefully inept it is against someone who can both kick and box, and is an equally skilled athlete.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [ä
> 
> 
> I know what isn't and how woefully inept it is against someone who can both kick and box, and is an equally skilled athlete.


You don’t half talk a load of rubbish.....it has everything to do with the actual fighter not the system. If a great taekwondo fighter fights a crap Muay Thai fighter then the Muay Thai guy will lose and vice versa. If you couldn’t use it effectively maybe it’s you that’s woefully inept...not the system


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> You don’t half talk a load of rubbish.....it has everything to do with the actual fighter not the system. If a great taekwondo fighter fights a crap Muay Thai fighter then the Muay Thai guy will lose and vice versa. If you couldn’t use it effectively maybe it’s you that’s woefully inept...not the system



Well Duh! If a great fighter fights a crap fighter, the great fighter will win.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Well Duh! If a great fighter fights a crap fighter, the great fighter will win.


Well done you’re starting to learn


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Well done you’re starting to learn



Learning what? It doesn’t tell you anything about the system if you only beat people worse than yourself. If you clone me and have the other guy do Kickboxing for the same amount of time, I know who will win.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I did not say use your hands, I said box. My argument applies exactly the same to karate. Raymond Daniels Kempo black belt did not help one bit.


Yeah I purposefully avoided that word since that's not the only way to strike. As an example you'll probably accept, muay thai fighters don't 'box', but still know how to use their hands.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Learning what? It doesn’t tell you anything about the system if you only beat people worse than yourself. If you clone me and have the other guy do Kickboxing for the same amount of time, I know who will win.


Oh good now you’re going into science fiction. If the style was as you put it “woefully inept” then it wouldn’t matter the skill level because it’s such a bad system that it wouldn’t be able to beat anyone...


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Oh good now you’re going into science fiction. If the style was as you put it “woefully inept” then it wouldn’t matter the skill level because it’s such a bad system that it wouldn’t be able to beat anyone...



So it's a good system because it beats someone who's crap?


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So it's a good system because it beats someone who's crap?


God it’s like talking to a brick wall with you....no...there’s no such thing as good and bad systems only good and bad practitioners....if it didn’t work for you in a fight...maybe that says more about your skills or lack of...maybe thing of that before blaming the system...because there are plenty of excellent taekwondo guys out there who could 100% use it effectively....just cause you can’t doesn’t mean it’s not a good system. 

now read it slowly so it sinks in


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yeah I purposefully avoided that word since that's not the only way to strike. As an example you'll probably accept, muay thai fighters don't 'box', but still know how to use their hands.



No I don't accept that. A decent boxer is unlikely to steam roll a decent Muay Thai practioner, even if you ban the low kicks and clinch.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I don't accept that. A decent boxer is unlikely to steam roll a decent Muay Thai practioner, even if you ban the low kicks.


Sure they can ive seen it plenty of times


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Everybody knows that Muay Thai adopted Western Boxing since about 50 years..modified for Kickboxing rules. 

Our dear moderator missed that though.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Everybody knows that Muay Thai adopted Western Boxing since about 50 years..modified for Kickboxing rules.
> 
> Our dear moderator missed that though.


And?


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> God it’s like talking to a brick wall with you....no...there’s no such thing as good and bad systems only good and bad practitioners....if it didn’t work for you in a fight...maybe that says more about your skills or lack of...maybe thing of that before blaming the system...because there are plenty of excellent taekwondo guys out there who could 100% use it effectively....just cause you can’t doesn’t mean it’s not a good system.
> 
> now read it slowly so it sinks in



If it is the individual then that is evidence the training doesn't work. You are just putting people in a room and seeing who is naturally better.

If individuals are becoming consistently better that is the mesure of the quality of the training.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> No clue, but I'm not making any claim that TKD is useful. I've never trained it and like I said I have no skin in the game either way.
> 
> But if someone were to make that claim, and used an example of them beating one kickboxer in a sparring match (unless that kickboxer was a K-1 champ or something), I'd have issue with that as well.



Yeah but it is such a common point of evidence on this forum. I am suprised you chose now to discredit it. 

I mean it works on the street is what some systems are fundamentally based on.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because there are literally hundreds of thousands of people teaching TKD, from piles of different systems. Sample size matters. A sample size of 4 out of, say, 300,000 is meaningless.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? You're sure about that? Care to tell me what is and isn't a part of TKD MDK?



And so each person has the burden of proof to make the claim their TKD system works.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it is such a common point of evidence on this forum. I am suprised you chose now to discredit it.
> 
> I mean it works on the street is what some systems are fundamentally based on.



I could probably light up the aforementioned Kickboxer  in a street scuff. Anybody can win a  brawl and I've grown up doing that crap. But to fail when doing sparring is a pretty horrific result. We had both trained 4 years at that point. He was not faster, stronger, nothing. He was even shorter than me. No excuses...

He switched levels and utilized head movement which nobody else in the club did, and I sparred several medalists in TKD...


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

I'll tell you what they're good at; admiring their kicks! And dropping their guard... And yeah they kick like hell but that's not enough. Not knowing how to box in striking is as bad as doing MMA without knowing submission grappling. It works to a certain point and then it's a total stop, pants down, total exposure.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Style may play into it, but how someone trains is more important. I’d guess that the vast majority of Taekwondo students can’t fight because the vast majority of Taekwondo students don’t train to fight. I do think that many tkd instructors have a hard time admitting that, though. 

The rule set is important, too. A long time ago I sparred with a kick boxer under Olympic tkd rules. I easily dominated the match. If we had fought with kickboxing rules, he most likely would have handled me. My best weapons were my kicks and footwork. His best weapons were his hands. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> Style may play into it, but how someone trains is more important. I’d guess that the vast majority of Taekwondo students can’t fight because the vast majority of Taekwondo students don’t train to fight. I do think that many tkd instructors have a hard time admitting that, though.
> 
> The rule set is important, too. A long time ago I sparred with a kick boxer under Olympic tkd rules. I easily dominated the match. If we had fought with kickboxing rules, he most likely would have handled me. My best weapons were my kicks and footwork. His best weapons were his hands.
> 
> ...



Don't you agree that a lot of TKD schools have steered away from practicality even within the kicking department? Too much emphasis on spinning techniques. The low percentage techniques in regular fighting are trained as if they are basics...and high percentage techniques.


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I could probably light up the aforementioned Kickboxer  in a street scuff. Anybody can win a  brawl and I've grown up doing that crap. But to fail when doing sparring is a pretty horrific result. We had both trained 4 years at that point. He was not faster, stronger, nothing. He was even shorter than me. No excuses...
> 
> He switched levels and utilized head movement which nobody else in the club did, and I sparred several medalists in TKD...


You got your *** kicked deal with it


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

It’s quite amusing you’re talking all this trash yet on another post your asking questions about how to do taekwondo moves......sure adds to the theory that it’s you who’s not that good and not the style


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Don't you agree that a lot of TKD schools have steered away from practicality even within the kicking department? Too much emphasis on spinning techniques. The low percentage techniques in regular fighting are trained as if they are basics...and high percentage techniques.



That may be true. However, back in my competition days, back kick and back hook kick weren’t low percentage techniques, precisely because I trained the hell out of them. But that was, of course, in the context of tkd sparring. I wasn’t training to be an mma fighter or a kick boxer. I trained those “spinning” techniques knowing that most of my opponents’ bread and butter was going to be round kick, and my spinning kicks perfectly countered them. It was a psychological advantage, too, because it essentially took away their best weapon. 

Again, I think most tkd students aren’t training to fight. Even most of the ones who believe they are training to fight aren’t. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> That may be true. However, back in my competition days, back kick and back hook kick weren’t low percentage techniques, precisely because I trained the hell out of them. But that was, of course, in the context of tkd sparring. I wasn’t training to be an mma fighter or a kick boxer. I trained those “spinning” techniques knowing that most of my opponents’ bread and butter was going to be round kick, and my spinning kicks perfectly countered them. It was a psychological advantage, too, because it essentially took away their best weapon.
> 
> Again, I think most tkd students aren’t training to fight. Even most of the ones who believe they are training to fight aren’t.
> 
> ...



Back kicks are useful but training tornados as if they are the core of kicking is just silly and only makes sense if you are training for a sport that promotes flashy techniques, which is exactly what WT does. 

Or do you think they are an important stable of kicking outside of Olympic rules?


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Back kicks are useful but training tornados as if they are the core of kicking is just silly and only makes sense if you are training for a sport that promotes flashy techniques, which is exactly what WT does.
> 
> Or do you think they are an important stable of kicking outside of Olympic rules?



I disagree that WT promotes flashy techniques. Most players rely almost exclusively on front leg kicking these days. 

I do agree that if you’re focusing on tornado kicks and 540s, fighting probably isn’t your thing. But ah again, fighting isn’t most tkd students’ thing. To me, that’s ok. The 45 year old playing soccer with a team in the park isn’t training to try out for Manchester United. Taekwondo has enough aspects that many different people can participate and focus on the areas they enjoy, be it poomsae, sparring, self-defense, breaking, demonstration, or even dance these days. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I don't accept that. A decent boxer is unlikely to steam roll a decent Muay Thai practioner, even if you ban the low kicks and clinch.


So wouldn't that mean you don't need to learn to box to use your hands? Or did you mix up what you were saying at some point?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it is such a common point of evidence on this forum. I am suprised you chose now to discredit it.
> 
> I mean it works on the street is what some systems are fundamentally based on.


I've discredited it a bunch on this forum, particularly the last year or so. Maybe you just don't notice.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I disagree that WT promotes flashy techniques. Most players rely almost exclusively on front leg kicking these days.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You disagree yet they award higher points for spinning techniques. How does that work? 

Let's take another one. Do you think double roundhouse kicks are practical techniques in Kickboxing-ish competition or even MMA?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So wouldn't that mean you don't need to learn to box to use your hands? Or did you mix up what you were saying at some point?



 They learn boxing in Muay Thai, just not all of it. In TKD you learn what is either a poor imitation of boxing or no boxing at all.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You disagree yet they award higher points for spinning techniques. How does that work?
> 
> Let's take another one. Do you think double roundhouse kicks are practical techniques in Kickboxing-ish competition or even MMA?



If you watch an actual match, you’ll see that the flashy techniques aren’t used often despite more points being awarded. 

Shockingly, techniques specifically designed for tkd competition aren’t always the most practical for other sports. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> If you watch an actual match, you’ll see that the flashy techniques aren’t used often despite more points being awarded.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



They still take up a lot of the training time. I did tornados as much if not more than the basic kicks when I did KKW. And we trained for the sport of WT.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They learn boxing in Muay Thai, just not all of it. In TKD you learn what is either a poor imitation of boxing or no boxing at all.


They don't learn boxing in muay thai. They learn muay thai. That involves striking with your hands, but is a completely different system than boxing. Hence why I'm saying you can learn to use your hands without learning boxing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> promotes flashy techniques,


Back in the 70, if your school couldn't teach flashy kick, your school won't have any students. Believe or not, I went to watch a new school opening. During the 1st day, the instructor taught the inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick combo.

I assume if you can do inside crescent kick, outside kick combo, you can also do roundhouse kick (MT way), spin hook kick combo.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They still take up a lot of the training time. I did tornados as much if not more than the basic kicks when I did KKW. And we trained for the sport of WT.



That’s not the focus in my tkd school. And that wasn’t the focus at the tkd school in Seoul where I was on staff for a decade. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> They don't learn boxing in muay thai. They learn muay thai. That involves striking with your hands, but is a completely different system than boxing. Hence why I'm saying you can learn to use your hands without learning boxing.




"The punch techniques in muay Thai were originally quite limited, being crosses and a long (or lazy) circular strike made with a straight (but not locked) arm and landing with the heel of the palm. Cross-fertilization with Western boxing and Western martial arts mean the full range of western boxing punches are now used: lead jab, straight/cross, hook, uppercut, shovel and corkscrew punches and overhands as well as hammer fists and back fists."


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> That’s not the focus in my tkd school. And that wasn’t the focus at the tkd school in Seoul where I was on staff for a decade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You're not going to argue that the new rules are better, are you? Face kicking doesn't score anymore at the highest levels, making it a battle of who can axe kick the other one more on the helmet.


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## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> That may be true. However, back in my competition days, back kick and back hook kick weren’t low percentage techniques, precisely because I trained the hell out of them. But that was, of course, in the context of tkd sparring. I wasn’t training to be an mma fighter or a kick boxer. I trained those “spinning” techniques knowing that most of my opponents’ bread and butter was going to be round kick, and my spinning kicks perfectly countered them. It was a psychological advantage, too, because it essentially took away their best weapon.
> 
> Again, I think most tkd students aren’t training to fight. Even most of the ones who believe they are training to fight aren’t.
> 
> ...



There are compilations of spinning kicks in UFC.


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> They don't learn boxing in muay thai. They learn muay thai. That involves striking with your hands, but is a completely different system than boxing. Hence why I'm saying you can learn to use your hands without learning boxing.



I love the unique ways people find to bash arts. /s


----------



## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You're not going to argue that the new rules are better, are you? Face kicking doesn't score anymore at the highest levels, making it a battle of who can axe kick the other one more on the helmet.



Nope. I hate the way it looks now, but that doesn’t mean I see lots of fancy techniques. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> There are compilations of spinning kicks in UFC.



How many tornado or double roundhouse or axe kick knockouts?

Imagine if a grappling coach in MMA didn't take anything from Jiujitsu specifically... What would we say about the practicality of Jiujitsu then?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> Nope. I hate the way it looks now, but that doesn’t mean I see lots of fancy techniques.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



My criticism was about training and practicality... How much would you estimate you did tornados, axe kicks, and scissor kicks in your day? And how much do you do them now? They are superflous techniques to anyone but TKD competitors. I didn't even do them in my ITF school! Now that's saying something!


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How many tornado or double roundhouse or axe kick knockouts?
> 
> Imagine if a grappling coach in MMA didn't take anything from Jiujitsu specifically... What would we say about the practicality of Jiujitsu then?


Here’s one (note also has his hands down taekwondo style)






here’s another one (with an axe kick also included )

https://youtu.be/aJKzZAqU8f

and one more for good luck






Those 3 all found in about 1 minute of scrolling through YouTube


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> There are compilations of spinning kicks in UFC.


I literally typed in tornado kick knockouts MMA and found 3 in about a minute lol


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> I literally typed in tornado kick knockouts MMA and found 3 in about a minute lol



3 in thousands of MMA bouts..?.  Well that settles it.. lol


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


>



Video is even labelled unusual strike KOs


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> 3 in thousands of MMA bouts..?.  Well that settles it.. lol


3 that I found in 1 minute and that’s 3 more than you claimed there was and here’s a few more spinning kicks for you (taekwondo style kicks)


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Here’s another. Not sure if it’s exclusively taekwondo kick but my friend who does taekwondo uses this kick in competition and here it is knocking out a ufc veteran


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Here’s another. Not sure if it’s exclusively taekwondo kick but my friend who does taekwondo uses this kick in competition and here it is knocking out a ufc veteran



Yeah that's not a formal Taekwondo kick. I would say that's more capoera than TKD, if anything.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> 3 that I found in 1 minute and that’s 3 more than you claimed there was and here’s a few more spinning kicks for you (taekwondo style kicks)



I never claimed there wasn't any. ..


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> I literally typed in tornado kick knockouts MMA and found 3 in about a minute lol


Saw this posted on r/Taekwondo today: Sometimes Spinning Spirals Successfully GIF by assuredfob | Gfycat

Not just tornado kicks, but back kicks and hook kicks.

Some of the most brutal KOs I've seen have been back kicks.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Saw this posted on r/Taekwondo today: Sometimes Spinning Spirals Successfully GIF by assuredfob | Gfycat
> 
> Not just tornado kicks, but back kicks and hook kicks.
> 
> Some of the most brutal KOs I've seen have been back kicks.


Oh yeah spinning kicks there’s thousands. Dennis siver was a good guy for them got a couple of spinning back kick to the body KOs.

also Uriah hall with this kick That damm near killed the guy


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> Saw this posted on r/Taekwondo today: Sometimes Spinning Spirals Successfully GIF by assuredfob | Gfycat
> 
> Not just tornado kicks, but back kicks and hook kicks.
> 
> Some of the most brutal KOs I've seen have been back kicks.


This was a nice one to


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

And of course for flashy kicks you can’t forget this 






and who performed that kick??....a taekwondo black belt 

also ben Henderson did this real nice move that i can’t find a video of but his kick got caught but he jumped into a roundhouse kick with his standing leg which the other just ducked. If it had landed it would’ve done some damage


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

@Headhunter let's see if Acronym ignores these or has some excuse why they're not legit Taekwondo moves...


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> @Headhunter let's see if Acronym ignores these or has some excuse why they're not legit Taekwondo moves...


Oh 100% he will....I mean I’ve never done a day of TKD in my life so I’m not defending for that reason but I cringe when I see the “this style is useless and ineffective” argument because to me that shows pure ignorance and limited experience in martial arts and an over inflated self belief in their own style. All styles have good and bad stuff nothing is perfect and nothing is truly useless. It’s about how you train it and if you are naturally good. I could train judo for 50 years I still wouldn’t be great at it. I’d probably be alright but nothing special because it’s not a style that suits me. But I’m not arrogant enough to say just because I’m bad at it it means the whole thing is useless.


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> I cringe when I see the “this style is useless and ineffective” argument because to me that shows pure ignorance and limited experience in martial arts and an over inflated self belief in their own style. All styles have good and bad stuff nothing is perfect and nothing is truly useless



QFT


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> QFT


But I’m sure I’ll get told otherwise soon enough


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> And of course for flashy kicks you can’t forget this
> 
> 
> 
> ...



running up the wall and kicking? Yeah, I don't recall ever being taught that in TKD. I would chalk that one up for some of the Kung Fu styles in which you actually do stuff like that.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Oh yeah spinning kicks there’s thousands. Dennis siver was a good guy for them got a couple of spinning back kick to the body KOs.
> 
> also Uriah hall with this kick That damm near killed the guy



Techniques Not exclusive to TaeKwondo like tornados and scissor kicks.... Even Sambo has spinning back kicks


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## Headhunter (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Techniques Not exclusive to TaeKwondo like tornados and scissor kicks.... Even Sambo has spinning back kicks


@skribs ding ding ding point for you


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Techniques Not exclusive to TaeKwondo like tornados and scissor kicks.... Even Sambo has spinning back kicks



So then what's your point?  Is Taekwondo bad because it has useless techniques?  Or is Taekwondo bad because other arts have these techniques?  If those techniques are useless, then doesn't that make those other arts useless?  Doesn't that make MMA useless, since MMA fighters get KO'd by these useless kicks?

I've seen people move goalposts plenty before.  This is one of the first times I haven't even been able to find them at all.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> So then what's your point?  Is Taekwondo bad because it has useless techniques?  Or is Taekwondo bad because other arts have these techniques?  If those techniques are useless, then doesn't that make those other arts useless?  Doesn't that make MMA useless, since MMA fighters get KO'd by these useless kicks?
> 
> I've seen people move goalposts plenty before.  This is one of the first times I haven't even been able to find them at all.



Where did I write that TKD is bad? I wrote that the curriculums deserves every bashing they get and then some!


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where did I write that TKD is bad? I wrote that the curriculums deserves every bashing it gets.



What's the distinction?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

skribs said:


> What's the distinction?



Training culture and philosophy as opposed to actual content.


----------



## skribs (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Training culture and philosophy as opposed to actual content.



I'm still confused.  Because the training culture and philosophy are what drive the curriculum and the content in it.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> Interesting point.  What specifically do you believe is wrong with the philosophy?



*Disconnect between forms/patterns and sparring.. Patterns don't relate and don't apply to sparring

Even kicking techniques that do get used tend to get circumvented and not thrown the way you were taught them in basics, because those ways are too time consuming and telegraphed (then why learn them that way in the first place?)

 punching and blocking in patterns does not carry over to live action due to the static nature of pattern delivery and the overemphasis on form (no leaning) and the underestimation of attacks.

Endless time spent on blocks that aren't used in sparring since they don't work against chains of attacks. 30% to 40% is spent on something that is useless and not even used in that very same school once you free spar. if you do, you will suffer for it.

* A persistent fostering belief in using the leg as first line of offense and defence, but no account for how this translates to people who won't "play the game"

* simulation of non TKD fighting scenarios are laughably contrived

 *Ho shin sul  Aikido grappling techniques.

* much more emphasis on form than applicability, making the practitioner "pretty" but not conditioned for what's ahead. Real fighting is ugly, not pretty.

* undue time spent on flexibility


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

And yes, I have an anecdote of a black belt who thought blocking punches  was a good idea in free sparring. He got tagged like a baby. 1-2, bang. Couldn't parry both at the same time. 

That's a good 30-40% of the training out the window.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

Also:

*Overestimation with regards to the hierarchy of kicks (side kick being the holy grail). Side kicks are of very little concern to experienced, potent ring fighters in striking. Back kicks are also overestimated lines of attack in a live action scenario where you aren't you playing TKD and there's no time or room for your techniques.

I  have seen very potent TKD fighters spam spinning back kicks to no effect in a KB ring, even though they landed


----------



## Earl Weiss (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> running up the wall and kicking? Yeah, I don't recall ever being taught that in TKD.


In the Chang Hon system  it's called "Reflex Kick"   (Perhaps not the greatest name.)   Perhaps you were absent from class the day it was taught.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> *
> 
> * A persistent fostering belief in using the leg as first line of offense and defence, but no account for how this translates to people who won't "play the game"


That would be instruction, not philosophy of the art.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

Another disconnect is 60% or more time devoted to hand striking and blocks in "basics", yet 80% emphasis on kicking when we spar due to the rules, with punching techniques getting a subordinate position and blocks left out altogether. This applies to both ITF and KKW.

 Not only is there a disconnect but also an inconsistency which permeats TaeKwonDo. Traditional Karate curriculums are more coherent in this respect.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

I will also add that the arts excellent body mechanics for kicking cannot compensate for the deficiencies above, especially not in a live action setting where things get diluted anyway. The strong cards are not impactful enough, simply.

But some things are better in the TKD culture of training than in other traditional martial arts such as power training (mitts practise) and early exposure to extensive kicking . I still remember my frustrations doing Shotokan for 6 months and barely kicking. I don't even know if we did anything but front kick. And we also never hit anything.


----------



## skribs (Aug 3, 2020)

@Acronym

So those back kick KOs in the UFC were just staged? Were they CGI?

You have a couple of valid points (disconnect between forms and sparring), but you also have a lot of false information, and you have a lot of conclusions that are just too far of a leap.

Are there issues with TKD? Yes.  But here you say pretty much everything is useless, which means you're just bashing the art.  I can't tell is you're trolling or just genuinely this ignorant.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> @Acronym
> 
> So those back kick KOs in the UFC were just staged? Were they CGI?
> 
> ...



No I pointed to things that make Taekwondo better than traditional Karate training IMO. You are given tools but the sweet science is not there nu because what you do in one area has a very little connection to another.


----------



## skribs (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No I pointed to things that make Taekwondo better than traditional Karate training IMO. You are given tools but the sweet science is not there nu because what you do in one area has a very little connection to another.



Ok. That doesn't mean it's all useless.  There are definite benefits from everything you do in class.

For example, a boxer isn't going to skip rope or do pushups and situps in the middle of a match.  But those definitely help prepare him for the match.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> Ok. That doesn't mean it's all useless.  There are definite benefits from everything you do in class.
> 
> For example, a boxer isn't going to skip rope or do pushups and situps in the middle of a match.  But those definitely help prepare him for the match.



I've had instructors yell for minutes on end about improper stances, arguing about degrees, all that nonetheless goes out the window once we spar and take a side on stance.


----------



## Steve (Aug 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm still confused.  Because the training culture and philosophy are what drive the curriculum and the content in it.


Depends on how you look at it.  Culture evolves over time.  There is the culture of origin, which has some influence. But so does the culture in which it is taught.  Jiu Jitsu is heavily influenced by Japanese culture, which in turn influences the curriculum, the philosophy, and the training methods.  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is influenced by its Japanese origins as well as Brazilian sensibilities and culture, which in turn has a lot of influence over the curriculum, philosophy, and methods.  BJJ is, as a result, very different from Japanese Jujutsu, and even from Judo.  BJJ taught in America is different from BJJ taught in Brazil.  The culture in the USA is different, the instructors are different, and so the culture evolved, shaping the curriculum, philosophy, and the training methods.  This isn't monolithic, even within the same style, and in spite of any efforts to preserve the cultural integrity of the art.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

Steve said:


> Depends on how you look at it.  Culture evolves over time.  There is the culture of origin, which has some influence. But so does the culture in which it is taught.  Jiu Jitsu is heavily influenced by Japanese culture, which in turn influences the curriculum, the philosophy, and the training methods.  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is influenced by its Japanese origins as well as Brazilian sensibilities and culture, which in turn has a lot of influence over the curriculum, philosophy, and methods.  BJJ is, as a result, very different from Japanese Jujutsu, and even from Judo.  BJJ taught in America is different from BJJ taught in Brazil.  The culture in the USA is different, the instructors are different, and so the culture evolved, shaping the curriculum, philosophy, and the training methods.  This isn't monolithic, even within the same style, and in spite of any efforts to preserve the cultural integrity of the art.



I was gonna mention Japanese jujutsu as a prime example of something that could have been equivalent to BJJ or Sambo if they trained live resistance,  free grappling, and full contact.  So the training affects the art indeed.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I will also add that the arts excellent body mechanics for kicking cannot compensate for the deficiencies above, especially not in a live action setting where things get diluted anyway. The strong cards are not impactful enough, simply.
> 
> But some things are better in the TKD culture of training than in other traditional martial arts such as power training (mitts practise) and early exposure to extensive kicking . I still remember my frustrations doing Shotokan for 6 months and barely kicking. I don't even know if we did anything but front kick. And we also never hit anything.


Jeez so now you have an issue with Shotokan to...you are the kind of person I’d hate to have in any club of mine...because you’re a know it all. Everything someone says to you you have an argument or a comeback for . Those people are usually impossible to teach


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I still remember my frustrations doing Shotokan for 6 months and barely kicking. I don't even know if we did anything but front kick. And we also never hit anything.


When I spent 3 months in YMCA Karate class, one day I asked my Karate instructor the following:

A: Why do I have to do push up, sit up, running around the room in the class? I can do all those at home.
B: Not everybody will train at home.

- I go to school to learn, and come home to train. 
- Others may go to school to train, and come home to rest.

IMO, to kick/punch on heavy bag is part of the homework. One should not spend his school learning time for that.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 3, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I spent 3 months in YMCA Karate class, one day I asked my Karate instructor the following:
> 
> A: Why do I have to do push up, sit up, running around the room in the class? I can do all those at home.
> B: Not everybody will train at home.
> ...


You do realise not everyone has the space or the money for a heavy bag right?


----------



## skribs (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I've had instructors yell for minutes on end about improper stances, arguing about degrees, all that nonetheless goes out the window once we spar and take a side on stance.



Cool story, bro.


----------



## Steve (Aug 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I was gonna mention Japanese jujutsu as a prime example of something that could have been equivalent to BJJ or Sambo if they trained live resistance,  free grappling, and full contact.  So the training affects the art indeed.


To put a fine point on it, I think culture alone can influence the style.  I mentioned Judo and BJJ.  They are much more alike than Japanese Jujutsu and BJJ, but there are still significant differences that can be attributed to culture.

That said, I agree with you that how a style is trained matters significantly.  I've posted at length about it, and I'm sure no one is interested in hearing me rehash it again.  Suffice to say, I think if you train a style for an application, two things happen.  First, the style will become more effective in that application.  Second, the style will evolve to become well suited for the application.  These sound similar, but aren't quite the same.  For example, if you train TKD and apply those skills in MMA, your TKD skills will improve and you will become better at MMA.  Second, your TKD will evolve, because you will find that some of your TKD skills work better in that context than others.

Some people view this as support against application (the 'we train for self defense' cohort).  I think it's just the opposite, which is a strong argument for as much diverse application as possible, based on your goals.  Rulesets focus training.  They are only limiting if you confine yourself to one ruleset.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 3, 2020)

Steve said:


> To put a fine point on it, I think culture alone can influence the style.  I mentioned Judo and BJJ.  They are much more alike than Japanese Jujutsu and BJJ, but there are still significant differences that can be attributed to culture.
> .



Not sure how it can be attributed to culture since judo had much more groundwork emphasis in Kimuras time.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 3, 2020)

skribs said:


> Ok. That doesn't mean it's all useless.  There are definite benefits from everything you do in class.
> 
> For example, a boxer isn't going to skip rope or do pushups and situps in the middle of a match.  But those definitely help prepare him for the match.



That doesn't automatically justify every training method though. 

You can't say Kata works just because push ups work. 

They are different things.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 3, 2020)

Folks,
A reminder about style bashing seems to be in order.  Here at Martial Talk, we don't want to get into the whole mess of trying to decide which style is best -- because each has good and bad.  And that's whether we talk techniques/principles, training methodology, particular schools, or individuals.  We can discuss and compare styles in a friendly manner, without bashing styles -- or each other.


----------



## skribs (Aug 3, 2020)

drop bear said:


> That doesn't automatically justify every training method though.
> 
> You can't say Kata works just because push ups work.
> 
> They are different things.



A lot of what kata does is build muscle connections for the movements you will use, and build the balance and coordination that is important for those kicks.

My opinion is if you try and use it as a teaching tool, it's going to leave you wanting (as its left me), but there is definitely value in them.

That's why I compared it to those other exercises.  Because the stances build balance, leg strength, and flexibility; and the way you perform the techniques builds the speed you will use them at.  There are other ways to train these, sure.  But kata does a pretty good job.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> A reminder about style bashing seems to be in order.  Here at Martial Talk, we don't want to get into the whole mess of trying to decide which style is best -- because each has good and bad.  And that's whether we talk techniques/principles, training methodology, particular schools, or individuals.  We can discuss and compare styles in a friendly manner, without bashing styles -- or each other.



But teaching bashing can serve a purpose in that the other side can make their case. So far I haven't really seen that though so maybe they simply have different objectives than the average student who pays..


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> A lot of what kata does is build muscle connections for the movements you will use.



Yeah, if you use them! The point is you don't unless it's against an untrained assailant.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But teaching bashing can serve a purpose in that the other side can make their case. So far I haven't really seen that though so maybe they simply have different objectives than the average student who pays..


Well it’s against the rules so there we go...keep doing it and you’ll get banned...jeez you even have a smartass answer to being told the rules


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Well the thread title should be changed to "Taekwondo reservationists" then...


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not sure how it can be attributed to culture since judo had much more groundwork emphasis in Kimuras time.


You don't see a difference between bjj and judo?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> You don't see a difference between bjj and judo?



Not in Kimuras era. And not compared to todays Kosen Judo either.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not in Kimuras era. And not compared to todays Kosen Judo either.


If you go into a judo school and a bjj school, you'd be completely incapable of telling the difference?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> If you go into a judo school and a bjj school, you'd be completely incapable of telling the difference?



I answered your question in the previous post.


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah, if you use them! The point is you don't unless it's against an untrained assailant.



You don't use your muscles?

The deep stances, build the muscles you'll use to drive your punches and kicks.  The hand strikes build the muscles you'll use in hand strikes.  The stances build the foundation you'll need for any grappling (without a strong base, you won't be able to push/pull/throw anyone).

It's not the exact techniques.  It's what you build.  For example, the double knife-hand block: in my opinion, a useless technique.  However, the particular way you move your arms and your core helps build useful muscle for other techniques.  It's also how you build them.  Building muscle is great, but you need to train speed as well.  Forms help you train to use speed and get that "snap power."  Forms help you learn how to manage your weight and balance.

You use all of those in a fight.  Whether against someone who is trained or untrained.  All of those benefits will help you in a fight.



Acronym said:


> But teaching bashing can serve a purpose in that the other side can make their case. So far I haven't really seen that though so maybe they simply have different objectives than the average student who pays..



Maybe you should read one of the stickies in the general thread: Critique vs Criticism


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> You don't use your muscles?
> 
> The deep stances, build the muscles you'll use to drive your punches and kicks.  The hand strikes build the muscles you'll use in hand strikes.  The stances build the foundation you'll need for any grappling (without a strong base, you won't be able to push/pull/throw anyone).



Deep stances in TKD?  Anyway, you can do that at home all day in your time off, if you believe there is any utility to that. To spend 40% of your dojang time on blocks that aren't used in application is a hard thing to swallow. If most schools had pattern training separate classes, most wouldn't show up, at least according to the assistant instructor where I trained. It is not beloved, it isn't applied, and you can do it at home.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I answered your question in the previous post.


Yeah. But I just can't comprehend it.  You're saying if you stumbled into a school that was either judo or bjj, you'd be completely incapable of telling the difference?  I think I'd be able to, even if no one was on the mats.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Yeah. But I just can't comprehend it.  You're saying if you stumbled into a school that was either judo or bjj, you'd be completely incapable of telling the difference?  I think I'd be able to, even if no one was on the mats.



If it was a Kosen Judo school, I wouldn't be able to, no.. Do you know what that is?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If it was a Kosen Judo school, I wouldn't be able to, no.. Do you know what that is?


Do you?


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Deep stances in TKD?



Are you willfully ignorant or is this just an accident?  You're talking like you're the arbiter of the arts, and yet you don't know simple things about how they train.



> Anyway, you can do that at home all day in your time off, if you believe there is any utility to that. To spend 40% of your dojang time on blocks that aren't used in application is a hard thing to swallow. If most schools had pattern training separate classes, most wouldn't show up, at least according to the assistant instructor where I trained. It is not beloved, it isn't applied, and you can do it at home.



So you should train stuff at home without instruction?  As you so eloquently described earlier, there are a lot of details that go into those forms.  People don't just randomly do them.  

Lots of people enjoy the forms.  In fact, that's become a significant part of our classes since COVID hit and we can't spar or grapple anymore.  And we still have around 100 students or so who show up to primarily do forms.  You're quoting an assistant instructor?  What does your main instructor say?  What does your master say?  The assistant instructor is just someone who helps out with classes.  I wouldn't expect them to know what works and what doesn't in running the business.

By your logic, no martial arts school should ever do any physical training in class, because you can just do that at home.  I say "logic" very generously in this case.

You're continuing to bash the art in this thread after an admin came in and told you to stop.  Are you trying to get yourself banned?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Deep stances in TKD?  Anyway, you can do that at home all day in your time off, if you believe there is any utility to that. To spend 40% of your dojang time on blocks that aren't used in application is a hard thing to swallow. If most schools had pattern training separate classes, most wouldn't show up, at least according to the assistant instructor where I trained. It is not beloved, it isn't applied, and you can do it at home.


Ah well hey if an assistant instructor said it then it must be true right....utter nonsense. Yeah some people don’t like forms and that’s absolutely fair enough but some people love them. They don’t want to be getting smacked around and going home with black eyes or bruised up hands, They’re happy doing their forms. Myself I like them and train them regularly and great for fitness. “You can do it at home?” I can punch a bag at home, I can do push ups at home I can shadow box at home does that mean no one should go train at all....and yes I can do my forms at home but I’m not getting any feedback on what to improve.

you know what I’m sure you will come back with smug smartass answer about how everyone is wrong but you.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

[


skribs said:


> Are you willfully ignorant or is this just an accident?  You're talking like you're the arbiter of the arts, and yet you don't know simple things about how they train.



TKD training is not characterized by deep stances.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> .
> 
> By your logic, no martial arts school should ever do any physical training in class, because you can just do that at home.  I say "logic" very generously in this case.
> 
> You're continuing to bash the art in this thread after an admin came in and told you to stop.  Are you trying to get yourself banned?



You can't spar against yourself.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> You're continuing to bash the art in this thread after an admin came in and told you to stop.  Are you trying to get yourself banned?



I was not quoted


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> ö
> 
> 
> 
> So you should train stuff at home without instruction?  As you so eloquently described earlier, there are a lot of details that go into those forms.  People don't just randomly do them.



You mentioned that the stances are good for muscle building, to which I replied that you can practice them at home just as well.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Ah well hey if an assistant instructor said it then it must be true right....utter nonsense. Yeah some people don’t like forms and that’s absolutely fair enough but some people love them. They don’t want to be getting smacked around and going home with black eyes or bruised up hands, They’re happy doing their forms. Myself I like them and train them regularly and great for fitness. “You can do it at home?” I can punch a bag at home, I can do push ups at home I can shadow box at home does that mean no one should go train at all....and yes I can do my forms at home but I’m not getting any feedback on what to improve.
> 
> you know what I’m sure you will come back with smug smartass answer about how everyone is wrong but you.



[
There are a lot of people who can't use a heavy bag at home due to space. Not everybody is a middle class citizen with a bro garage and a heavy bag


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> running up the wall and kicking? Yeah, I don't recall ever being taught that in TKD. I would chalk that one up for some of the Kung Fu styles in which you actually do stuff like that.


Which kung fu style would that be?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Which kung fu style would that be?



I don't remember which one but I did visit such a school. Never joined.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah that's not a formal Taekwondo kick. I would say that's more capoera than TKD, if anything.


Capoeira uses a kick that is kind of, sort of, similar to that, but I’ve never seen anything quite like that in capoeira.  I have seen similar things in other systems as well. 

I guess I wonder, what does it matter?  Lots of things can work. Similar things can be found within many different systems.  Very very few things are truly unique to one method.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How many tornado or double roundhouse or axe kick knockouts?
> 
> Imagine if a grappling coach in MMA didn't take anything from Jiujitsu specifically... What would we say about the practicality of Jiujitsu then?


Why would we need to say anything about the practicality of juijistsu then?


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Deep stances in TKD?  Anyway, you can do that at home all day in your time off, if you believe there is any utility to that. To spend 40% of your dojang time on blocks that aren't used in application is a hard thing to swallow. If most schools had pattern training separate classes, most wouldn't show up, at least according to the assistant instructor where I trained. It is not beloved, it isn't applied, and you can do it at home.


You keep listing percentages.   Where do you get those numbers?  How do we know they are accurate in any way?


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't remember which one but I did visit such a school. Never joined.


I’ve never seen such a thing.  You may have seen a school teaching Modern Wushu, which was developed by the Chinese Government in the 1950s as a performance and competition cultural art form.  It relies on acrobatic forms and is similar to a kung-fu inspired gymnastics routine.  The method is based on the older kung fu methods but was altered for aesthetics and performance and is not meant to be a valid fighting method.  Modern Wushu folks tend to be excellent athletes, but are not training for combat, unless they do something else like Sanda, in the side. 

So yes, Modern Wushu has acrobatics.  I’ve never seen acrobatics in a traditional kung fu school.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

I will say this, though I wish to stress it's only my limited observations, the Kickboxers I've seen from across the globe hitting the bag, posting clips for feedbacks, tend to be clearly worse kickers than non Mcdojo TKDOIns..

 Even in cases where their experiences are decades, they kick worse in terms of form - things that you can do something about and is not down to genetics. So in that sense I don't think doing TaeKwonDo would be a waste of time. There is some benefit to forms that TMA instills, but that doesn't mean you need all the blocks and katas/tuls/pomsae..

and the level kickboxers kick is good enough anyway, clearly.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I will say this, though I wish to stress it's only my limited observations, the Kickboxers I've seen from across the globe hitting the bag, posting clips for feedbacks, tend to be clearly worse kickers than non Mcdojo TKDOIns..
> 
> Even in cases where their experiences are decades, they kick worse in terms of form - things that you can do something about and is not down to genetics. So in that sense I don't think doing TaeKwonDo would be a waste of time. There is some benefit to forms that TMA instills, but that doesn't mean you need all the blocks and katas/tuls/pomsae..
> 
> and the level kickboxers kick is good enough anyway, clearly.


Why don’t you just find a method and a teacher who can teach you in a way that engages you, and makes sense to you, and you can relate to?  Don’t worry about the rest, or what other people are doing.  It is irrelevant to you.  

Not every method is a good fit for every person.  It is important to find the right approach to training, that makes sense to you.  If not, you just get frustrated with the training.  Sounds to me like that is where you are.  You need to find something that is better for you.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> So yes, Modern Wushu has acrobatics.  I’ve never seen acrobatics in a traditional kung fu school.



Never said it was traditional kung fu. I was gonna guess that it was Wushu but I don't know that for a fact. There is actually a wushu school next to the one I go to and it might be the same one that I visited as a kid.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Never said it was traditional kung fu. I was gonna guess that it was Wushu but I don't know that for a fact. There is actually a wushu school next to the one I go to and it might be the same one that I visited as a kid.


Well, it makes a difference because they are not the same thing.  I would suggest you be certain of what you are looking at before you make claims about it, especially if those claims are accusations.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Why don’t you just find a method and a teacher who can teach you in a way that engages you, and makes sense to you, and you can relate to?  Don’t worry about the rest, or what other people are doing.  It is irrelevant to you.
> .



It's very hard to find a TKD school that doesn't do patterns but if there was one, I'd take it.  I'm not going to get yelled at for stances that aren't used in sparring. It's just a waste of my time and money.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, it makes a difference because they are not the same thing.  I would suggest you be certain of what you are looking at before you make claims about it, especially if those claims are accusations.



Wushu is a form of kung fu. I am certain of it. There's a reason I didn't join.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's very hard to find a TKD school that doesn't do patterns but if there was one, I'd take it.  I'm not going to get yelled at for stances that aren't used in sparring. It's just a waste of my time and money.


Maybe TKD isn’t the right path for you.  That isn’t a dig at you nor a negative judgement on TKD.  It just might be the wrong approach for you.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Wushu is a form of kung fu. I am certain of it. There's a reason I didn't join.


It is a very specific alteration that intentionally deviates from the traditional fighting methods of China.  It is a performance art.

I also didn’t join, even though my first Sifu is also a coach for Modern Wushu.  I told him I was only interested in the traditional fighting methods.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If it was a Kosen Judo school, I wouldn't be able to, no.. Do you know what that is?


I am familiar with the Kosen Judo rule set and the history of it.  I guess, I'm just genuinely surprised that you couldn't tell the difference between one school and another.  For what it's worth, I think I could. In fact, I think I could tell the difference between an American BJJ school and a Brazilian BJJ school without anyone saying a word.  Different culture.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> running up the wall and kicking? Yeah, I don't recall ever being taught that in TKD. I would chalk that one up for some of the Kung Fu styles in which you actually do stuff like that.


Just for fun:















Here's a tutorial





Here's one of the little guys learning how:


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [TKD training is not characterized by deep stances.



It has been at both schools I've trained extensively at.  What's your authoritative source that TKD training is not characterized by deep stances?



Acronym said:


> You can't spar against yourself.



I didn't say sparring.  I said physical training.  That means pushups, situps, jumping rope, or any other training that you might do at a martial arts school that's more related to building muscles than training technique and sparring.

Most martial arts schools will include some sort of conditioning in their training.  Should they stop doing so, because you can do that at home?  Please, do me a favor, walk into any boxing gym where you see someone doing situps and go up to the owner and tell him "you're wasting people's time by having them do situps, they can do that at home!"  See how well he responds to this idea.



Acronym said:


> I was not quoted


Do you see anyone else bashing the art?  Who else do you think he was talking to?



Acronym said:


> You mentioned that the stances are good for muscle building, to which I replied that you can practice them at home just as well.



And how are students supposed to know the details of these stances to get the most use out of them without being instructed?  That's the whole point of class.  To learn things.  Then you go home and practice them.  If you know the forms well enough to practice them without instruction, then one of two things has happened:

You are a prodigy.  In which case your experience is not true of everyone else, and most other people do need the class.
You are lying to yourself about your own abilities.  You really have no understanding of the forms, the stances, or their purpose, and instead of accepting that fact, you choose to spew your ignorance for all of us to see.  I'm going to guess this is the more likely possibility, based on your flippant attitude towards them.
You may personally not like forms.  That's your prerogative.  A lot of great martial arts don't have forms.  But what you're doing is telling everyone else that they shouldn't do forms, either.  Or they just do them at home because you don't think it's worth the class time.  This is where your problem is.  You're telling everyone else how to train, based on your own (very misguided) opinions.  Who made you the arbiter of the arts?


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just for fun:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's almost like (gasp in surprise) different schools teach different things!  And having been to a single school doesn't tell you everything about the art!


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> I am familiar with the Kosen Judo rule set and the history of it.  I guess, I'm just genuinely surprised that you couldn't tell the difference between one school and another.  For what it's worth, I think I could. In fact, I think I could tell the difference between an American BJJ school and a Brazilian BJJ school without anyone saying a word.  Different culture.



Assuming the GI's don't give it away, how would you be able to differentiate a Kosen Judo school from a BJJ one?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's almost like (gasp in surprise) different schools teach different things!  And having been to a single school doesn't tell you everything about the art!



Pettis said himself it was a performance kick for breaking he did in TKD. How many students join demo teams or dabble in acrobatics? 1%? 0.5?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> It has been at both schools I've trained extensively at.



You would have to elaborate what you mean then and name the stances.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> There are a lot of people who can't use a heavy bag at home due to space. Not everybody is a middle class citizen with a bro garage and a heavy bag


Then they can shadow box


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Wushu is a form of kung fu. I am certain of it. There's a reason I didn't join.


I’m sure they’re very thankful for that


----------



## Buka (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You can't spar against yourself.




Might go blind.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> It's almost like (gasp in surprise) different schools teach different things!  And having been to a single school doesn't tell you everything about the art!


I don't now how ubiquitous a wall kick is in TKD, but to your point, it literally took me seconds to find all those videos.  I went to youtube and typed "wall kick tkd" into the search field and all kinds of things came up. So, it's obviously out there to some degree.

And as a tangent, this is a great example of why it's so peculiar and incredible that certain claims cannot be substantiated online.  There are over 1.9 billion active users logged on monthly, in 80 languages in over 100 different countries, with over 5 billion videos available.  There are over 500 hours of video uploaded every MINUTE, and people watch over 3.25 billion hours of video each month (about one billion views each day). 

So, the idea that there are zero examples of anything that actually exists in real life are exceedingly small (excluding things that are illegal or violate YouTube's standards of conduct).  Case in point is how easily I found examples of not just any wall kicks, but TKD wall kicks, including a tutorial.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> Then they can shadow box



That's not power training. And btw, a heavy bag is not optimal for the knees... medium hard kicking shields are much healthier, and for that you need a holder. Unless you want to buy a dummy and place in the home, which again is a convenience issue. So there are quite a few practical reasons why it's preferable to do that in the dojang.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's not power training. And btw, a heavy bag is not optimal for the knees... medium hard kicking shields are much healthier, and for that you need a holder. Unless you want to buy a dummy and place in the home, which again is a convenience issue. So there are quite a few practical reasons why it's preferable to do that in the dojang.


Oh ffs now you have an issue with heavy bags....as I said...so glad you are not at any school I go to


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Assuming the GI's don't give it away, how would you be able to differentiate a Kosen Judo school from a BJJ one?


Don't you think the Gi is one example of culture?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Don't you think the Gi is one example of culture?



You wrote that it was culture that made BJJ different from Judo. Then I call you out on it by mentioning Kosen Judo which is Japanese and has the same groundwork emphasis as BJJ

And you reply with that. Why not just admit you were wrong?


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You wrote that it was culture that made BJJ different from Judo. Then I call you out on it by mentioning Kosen Judo which is Japanese and has the same groundwork emphasis as BJJ
> 
> And you reply with that. Why not just admit you were wrong?


Because I'm not wrong.  This is what I said, and I think I'm correct.  The similarities between Judo and BJJ, and even Kosen Judo and BJJ, reinforce my points.  I'll quote my first two posts here to remind you of what I said.  


Steve said:


> Depends on how you look at it.  Culture evolves over time.  There is the culture of origin, which has some influence. But so does the culture in which it is taught.  Jiu Jitsu is heavily influenced by Japanese culture, which in turn influences the curriculum, the philosophy, and the training methods.  Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is influenced by its Japanese origins as well as Brazilian sensibilities and culture, which in turn has a lot of influence over the curriculum, philosophy, and methods.  BJJ is, as a result, very different from Japanese Jujutsu, and even from Judo.  BJJ taught in America is different from BJJ taught in Brazil.  The culture in the USA is different, the instructors are different, and so the culture evolved, shaping the curriculum, philosophy, and the training methods.  This isn't monolithic, even within the same style, and in spite of any efforts to preserve the cultural integrity of the art.





Steve said:


> To put a fine point on it, I think culture alone can influence the style.  I mentioned Judo and BJJ.  They are much more alike than Japanese Jujutsu and BJJ, but there are still significant differences that can be attributed to culture.
> 
> That said, I agree with you that how a style is trained matters significantly.  I've posted at length about it, and I'm sure no one is interested in hearing me rehash it again.  Suffice to say, I think if you train a style for an application, two things happen.  First, the style will become more effective in that application.  Second, the style will evolve to become well suited for the application.  These sound similar, but aren't quite the same.  For example, if you train TKD and apply those skills in MMA, your TKD skills will improve and you will become better at MMA.  Second, your TKD will evolve, because you will find that some of your TKD skills work better in that context than others.
> 
> Some people view this as support against application (the 'we train for self defense' cohort).  I think it's just the opposite, which is a strong argument for as much diverse application as possible, based on your goals.  Rulesets focus training.  They are only limiting if you confine yourself to one ruleset.


Maybe where the misunderstanding is happening is in the use of the term "culture." when I use it, I mean culture in the sense of the customs and norms of any group, not just of a country.  So, BJJ has a culture.  Judo has a culture.  TKD has a culture.  And Americans have a culture, which influenced the culture of TKD, BJJ, or Judo.  Etc.


----------



## TKD Eagle (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Pettis said himself it was a performance kick for breaking he did in TKD. How many students join demo teams or dabble in acrobatics? 1%? 0.5?



At our TKD school, the kids who have a lot of natural athletic ability are asked to join the demo team.  Every one of them.  Not all do, of course, but the school is always looking for people who can do awesome moves.  So if you're the kind of guy with the athletic talent to be a professional fighter, and you compete in TKD, then I can almost guarantee that you'd be offered a chance at demo team.  The fact that you don't know that shows your lack of knowledge about Taekwondo.

What you are failing to see is that not everybody who attends a martial arts school has the same goals.  I attend a WT school, and we put a lot of emphasis on competition.  WT competition, that is.  We send people to regional and national tournaments, and the whole school is filled with trophies.  Now I'm way too old for the tournament scene, and have no desire to do it.  But there are people who love sparring, there are people who love demo team, there are people who love poomsae competition.  There are a lot of opportunities for people who want to compete, and none of them require getting punched in the mouth.  It's a great sport.

Is it going to translate to MMA, which has a completely different rule set, without modification?  Of course not.  But neither does any other martial art.  Change the rules and you change which moves are best.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> Is it going to translate to MMA, which has a completely different rule set, without modification?  Of course not.  But neither does any other martial art.  Change the rules and you change which moves are best.



Sambo translates since it has both stand-up wrestling, striking, and ground submissions.


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Pettis said himself it was a performance kick for breaking he did in TKD. How many students join demo teams or dabble in acrobatics? 1%? 0.5?



Please source your statistics.  We have lots of students that do these performance kicks.  



Acronym said:


> You would have to elaborate what you mean then and name the stances.



How do you know so much about martial arts that you can tell everyone what works and what doesn't, and yet you don't know what I mean by "deep stances".  

I mean a front stance or a back stance where the length and depth of the stance is more than is comfortable, for the purpose of building flexibility, leg strength, balance, posture, and endurance.  This extends even to other stances, which aren't long, but can be done deeply - such as a cat stance or cross stance, in which your weight is primarily on a single leg.

What I mean by doing them properly is:

Properly distribute your weight to focus on specific muscle groups
Proper alignment of hips, feet, and shoulders, to help with posture and weight distribution
Pushing yourself past what's comfortable (something most people aren't apt to do without instruction, this is why people hire trainers at the gym)
Proper width of the stance to support balance
Holding the stance longer than comfortable to build endurance in your muscles and in your mindset



Acronym said:


> That's not power training. And btw, a heavy bag is not optimal for the knees... medium hard kicking shields are much healthier, and for that you need a holder. Unless you want to buy a dummy and place in the home, which again is a convenience issue. So there are quite a few practical reasons why it's preferable to do that in the dojang.



How is a standing bag different from a heavy bog?



Buka said:


> Might go blind.



I should have brought these out earlier, but...


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You wrote that it was culture that made BJJ different from Judo. Then I call you out on it by mentioning Kosen Judo which is Japanese and has the same groundwork emphasis as BJJ
> 
> And you reply with that. Why not just admit you were wrong?


the culture of BJJ is very different than the culture of Judo.  So much so, that you can tell whether you're in a Judo school or a BJJ school just by the way people act.  My point is that every style is influenced by more than just the curriculum, and that even with a similar curriculum, the culture of the style will be unique.  Kosen Judo and BJJ, having very similar curricula, are still different due to the varying cultures of the styles.

And hey!  Why are you calling me out?  LOL


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

QUOTE="Steve, post: 2007461, member: 17506"]the culture of BJJ is very different than the culture of Judo.  So much so, that you can tell whether you're in a Judo school or a BJJ school just by the way people act. [/QUOTE]

That's a very vague statement. How do Kosen Judo people act differently?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> How do you know so much about martial arts that you can tell everyone what works and what doesn't, and yet you don't know what I mean by "deep stances".
> 
> I mean a front stance or a back stance where the length and depth of the stance is more than is comfortable, for the purpose of building flexibility, leg strength, balance, posture, and endurance.  This extends even to other stances, which aren't long, but can be done deeply - such as a cat stance or cross stance, in which your weight is primarily on a single leg.
> 
> ...



Yeah we've done that on and off in my school. I don't view it as a crucial or healthy part of TKD training. I've gotten pains in my knees as a result of deep horse stances and other such things and the best way out of it to stop doing them alltogether.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

> That's a very vague statement. How do Kosen Judo people act differently?


That's a great question.  What do you think?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> That's a great question.  What do you think?



I'm not the one making the statement.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah we've done that on and off in my school. I don't see it as a crucial or healthy part of TKD training. I've gotten pains in my knees as a result of deep horse stances and other such things and the best way out of it to stop doing them alltogether.


So your body couldn’t handle it....so what? There’s probably millions of people who’s body can handle it....your bodies performance issues does not mean the entire training is bad.


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah we've done that on and off in my school. I don't see it as a crucial or healthy part of TKD training. I've gotten pains in my knees as a result of deep horse stances and other such things and the best way out of it to stop doing them alltogether.



That sounds like something you should talk to your doctor about.  Or a personal reason not to do them.

I'm also guessing there are other factors at play.  For example, I've been training them for years, and my knees are fine.  I've got literally hundreds of students (well, down to around 100 right now because of COVID), and they don't have those knee problems.  I don't think it's fair to say that's a bad way to train, when for the vast majority of people it isn't.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> So your body couldn’t handle it....so what? There’s probably millions of people who’s body can handle it....your bodies performance issues does not mean the entire training is bad.



Stressing the joints isn't good for anybody.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> That sounds like something you should talk to your doctor about.  Or a personal reason not to do them.
> 
> I'm also guessing there are other factors at play.  For example, I've been training them for years, and my knees are fine.  I've got literally hundreds of students (well, down to around 100 right now because of COVID), and they don't have those knee problems.  I don't think it's fair to say that's a bad way to train, when for the vast majority of people it isn't.



And the positive effects are what exactly, all else equal?


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> That sounds like something you should talk to your doctor about..



Or I can just stop doing them and be fine, which is what I did.


----------



## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

Now that you remind me of these suppressed memories, that's another thing that bugged me about my particular school.

Nothing was systematic. We could spend a day on aerials out of nowhere, but no systematic follow-up. A military conditioning class thrown in completely random. No sparring for weeks on end, and then suddenly quite a lot of sparring. There was no coherence or consistency to anything. 

What made it even worse is that some of these difference depended on whether the assistant instructor or head instructor had the class. And this despite the fact that the assistant instructor was brought up by the head instructor. Clearly different philosophies to TKD training.


----------



## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'm not the one making the statement.


You aren't?  What statement?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Stressing the joints isn't good for anybody.


Well not everyone’s whining about it are they...you’ve got guys in their 70s still doing it so yeah


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Now that you remind me of these suppressed memories, that's another thing that bugged me about my particular school.
> 
> Nothing was systematic. We could spend a day on aerials out of nowhere, but no systematic follow-up. A military conditioning class thrown in completely random. No sparring for weeks on end, and then suddenly quite a lot of sparring. There was no coherence or consistency to anything.
> 
> What made it even worse is that some of these difference depended on whether the assistant instructor or head instructor had the class. And this despite the fact that the assistant instructor was brought up by the head instructor. Clearly different philosophies to TKD training.


Breaking news: 2 instructors teach differently....shocker


----------



## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Stressing the joints isn't good for anybody.



Pretty much every workout "stresses joints."



Acronym said:


> And the positive effects are what exactly, all else equal?



I've already covered this.  Balance, posture, endurance, toughness, leg strength, probably a few others I've missed.  



Acronym said:


> Now that you remind me of these suppressed memories, that's another thing that bugged me about my particular school.
> 
> Nothing was systematic. We could spend a day on aerials out of nowhere, but no systematic follow-up. A military conditioning class thrown in completely random. No sparring for weeks on end, and then suddenly quite a lot of sparring. There was no coherence or consistency to anything.
> 
> What made it even worse is that some of these difference depended on whether the assistant instructor or head instructor had the class. And this despite the fact that the assistant instructor was brought up by the head instructor. Clearly different philosophies to TKD training.



I have vastly different ideas of how to train than my Master does; in part because of my previous school, in part because of how I've learned and taught other things, and in part because of forums like this one.

You recognize two different training ideas in your school alone.  Yet for some reason you're making all-or-nothing claims in the rest of this thread about what is and isn't Taekwondo.  How is it you recognize the differences in your own school, but assume everyone else is a carbon copy?


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Sambo translates since it has both stand-up wrestling, striking, and ground submissions.



I don't know anything about Sambo.  But even if it does, so what?  It just means that the Sambo rules and the UFC rules are similar.  But cage fighting is not the end-all, be-all of martial arts.

Muay Thai does well in UFC.  Kicking with your shins allows you to deliver more power than kicking with the top of your foot, or the ball of your foot (as in TKD).  Now personally, I don't want to strike with my shins.  Whacking your legs with sticks to "deaden the nerves" sounds like a great way to ensure permanent bone pain to me.  But I'm in my 40s and I have a real career.  I don't intend to ever cage fight.  Plus there's this great invention called "shoes" that let TKD guys put a lot more power into their kicks in a real world situation.  You don't want to eat a front snap kick from me when I'm wearing my cowboy boots, trust me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 4, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> Kicking with your shins allows you to deliver more power than kicking with the top of your foot, or the ball of your foot (as in TKD).


To kick with the shin is a 2 edges sword. It can hurt your opponent. It can also hurt yourself.


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## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> I don't know anything about Sambo.  But even if it does, so what?  It just means that the Sambo rules and the UFC rules are similar.  But cage fighting is not the end-all, be-all of martial arts.
> 
> Muay Thai does well in UFC.  Kicking with your shins allows you to deliver more power than kicking with the top of your foot, or the ball of your foot (as in TKD).  Now personally, I don't want to strike with my shins.  Whacking your legs with sticks to "deaden the nerves" sounds like a great way to ensure permanent bone pain to me.  But I'm in my 40s and I have a real career.  I don't intend to ever cage fight.  Plus there's this great invention called "shoes" that let TKD guys put a lot more power into their kicks in a real world situation.  You don't want to eat a front snap kick from me when I'm wearing my cowboy boots, trust me.



Kicking with the shin generates more power all else equal. I don't believe it generates more power with a non chambered, stiff-legged, Traditional Muay Thai roundhouse kick.


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## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> I don't know anything about Sambo.  But even if it does, so what?



So what? You said no martial art translates to cage fighting/UFC. Are you willing retract that now?


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 4, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To kick with the shin is a 2 edges sword. It can hurt your opponent. It can also hurt yourself.



Yeah I don't want that to happen to me.  I'll stick with my Taekwondo kicks, thank you.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Kicking with the shin generates more power all else equal. I don't believe it generates more power with a non chambered, stiff-legged, Traditional Muay Thai roundhouse kick.



My point is that kicking with shoes on gives a TKD practitioner a huge advantage in a real world fight, and it doesn't carry the risk of shattering your leg.

In UFC, you get to tape your wrists and wear padded gloves.  This protects your hands and encourages more boxing-style strikes.  However you are unlikely to be walking around on the street with taped wrists and with MMA/boxing gloves on.  Meanwhile you are incredibly likely to be wearing shoes of some kind, which you can't do in a cage fight.



> So what? You said no martial art translates to cage fighting/UFC. Are you willing retract that now?



Nah.  I'm sure there are some modifications that are needed.


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## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So what? You said no martial art translates to cage fighting/UFC. Are you willing retract that now?



Pretty much every art has something about it that you will need to change in order to go into the UFC.

Boxers are going to need to learn how to protect their legs and body, and have any take-down defense
Taekwondo fighters are going to have to learn to read punches, avoid getting their legs caught, and keep their hands up
BJJ fighters are going to have to learn how to do things while standing up
Etc. etc.  I'm of course painting with some pretty broad brushstrokes, but the point is when you add other rules into the mix, it changes things.  Boxers don't have to worry about kicks, so they don't train to deal with them.  BJJ fighters don't benefit as much from a good standup as they do from a good ground game, so that's where their training will focus.  If all you're doing is submission grappling on the ground, why do you have to be an expert in striking?


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## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> My point is that kicking with shoes on gives a TKD practitioner a huge advantage in a real world fight, and it doesn't carry the risk of shattering your leg.



Eh I don't think a Muay Thai practitioner would have any difficulties kicking with the foot, don't they do that also from time to time depending on the range?


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## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Eh I don't think a Muay Thai practitioner would have any difficulties kicking with the foot, don't they do that also from time to time depending on the range?



Then a TKD fighter shouldn't have any difficulty hitting with the shin, because so do we.


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## Acronym (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> Taekwondo fighters are going to have to learn to read punches, avoid getting their legs caught, and keep their hands





Not only read but also understand punching ranges. When they're safe and when not. I don't know if it's natural selection or bad habits from kicking, because they are totally oblivious, and the guard is down too. It's so bad that a sucker punch could end it even when they are supposed to be ready. I did not come from any boxing background and still picked up on this very early in training. 

Conversely, they read kicks very well, which goes fits into the theory that this is attributable to bad practice.


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not only read but also understand punching ranges. When they're safe and when not. I don't know if it's natural selection or bad habits from kicking, because they are totally oblivious, and the guard is down too. It's so bad that a sucker punch could end it even when they are supposed to be ready. I did not come from any boxing background and still picked up on this very early in training.
> 
> Conversely, they read kicks very well, which goes fits into the theory that this is attributable to bad practice.


Good for you


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Eh I don't think a Muay Thai practitioner would have any difficulties kicking with the foot, don't they do that also from time to time depending on the range?



I mean, I'm sure they can.  I don't know if that's something they train or not, other than the teep kick.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> Pretty much every art has something about it that you will need to change in order to go into the UFC.
> 
> Boxers are going to need to learn how to protect their legs and body, and have any take-down defense
> Taekwondo fighters are going to have to learn to read punches, avoid getting their legs caught, and keep their hands up
> ...


Do you think a TKD fighter would need to change some things in order to go into a real fight?


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Do you think a TKD fighter would need to change some things in order to go into a real fight?



This wasn’t directed at me, but...I don’t think a Taekwondo fighter would need to change anything. That said, I don’t think there are all that many Taekwondo fighters. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Do you think a TKD fighter would need to change some things in order to go into a real fight?



My goal is to not get into a real fight.  If I do, I'm going to fight dirty.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> My goal is to not get into a real fight.  If I do, I'm going to fight dirty.



I hear a lot of people say that. What do you mean when you say “fight dirty?”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs (Aug 4, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I hear a lot of people say that. What do you mean when you say “fight dirty?”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Aiming for the side of the knee or the groin, using any weapons I have handy (including my shoes).


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 4, 2020)

skribs said:


> Aiming for the side of the knee or the groin, using any weapons I have handy (including my shoes).



I should have asked earlier, but also, what’s a “real fight?”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> Do you think a TKD fighter would need to change some things in order to go into a real fight?


To put your question in context, if you asking if a purely WT fighter that knows nothing else would need to change some things then I would say likely yes. But you are talking about a very, very small % of the TKD population. Elite in their sport pursuit like an Olympic gymnast or runner. And they would have that 'killers edge' and drive and a physique well above the average person working in their favor.
A more rounded curriculum is taught to the average TKD consumer so they should be as ready as the next style. 
I am certain you know how individual this question gets. The person's life/lifestyle experiences, school, and instructor(s) are much larger variables than picking a specific style.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> My goal is to not get into a real fight.  If I do, I'm going to fight dirty.


So. Tkd goes out the window?  Just gonna fight dirty.  How much experienced do you have with dirty fighting?


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I should have asked earlier, but also, what’s a “real fight?”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


A fight with real consequences.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> A fight with real consequences.


What sort of consequences would you consider to be 'real'?  To be clear, I'm asking because, while "death" is obviously pretty real, it's an unlikely consequence.  Statistically, even if you're being mugged or assaulted, you are likely to survive even if you've never learned to fight.  Statistically, even if you get into a "street fight" no one is trying to kill anyone else.  So, I'm just trying to get a handle on what you consider "real consequences."


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

I know I wasn't asked, but I consider a "fight with real consequences" to mean a fight I can't choose to avoid, where the price of giving up is just as bad or worse than the price of fighting.

Maybe a year or two ago I was threatened by a homeless man.  He was a big dude, maybe 6'3" or a little taller, and looked strong.  He was unarmed as far as I could tell, but was clearly suffering from schizophrenia.  He was paranoid and angry and I'm sure he thought I was one of the lizard people or something.  Fortunately a friend of mine was nearby, he walked over and together we warned the guy away.  Violence averted (thankfully -- that dude was big and crazy).  But let's say my friend hadn't been around?  What if big crazy dude attacked me?  You can't really reason with somebody who is experiencing hallucinations and paranoia, and it's not like he wanted my wallet or anything I could give him.

Now that I'm married, I've got to watch out for my wife as well.  When we have kids, that's an additional group of people who I have to be able to protect.  I might have been able to run away from crazy homeless dude if he had attacked me.  But I'm not going to do that if it means leaving my wife with the baby stroller while I bravely run away.  Fortunately I live in a very pro-gun state, where we've got Constitutional Carry.  If I get too worried I'll just get a gun (well, another gun).

In a street fight scenario, TKD gives you really effective kicks.  And most people aren't prepared at all for an effective head kick.  And TKD doesn't make you _worse_ at punching or grappling.  You'll probably remain exactly as good as you were before, except you'll be in a lot better physical shape and you can kick dudes in the face.  Against most people, in fights you can't avoid, that may very well be enough.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> I know I wasn't asked, but I consider a "fight with real consequences" to mean a fight I can't choose to avoid, where the price of giving up is just as bad or worse than the price of fighting.


I'd call these (e.g., being unable to avoid a fight) conditions of the fight, not consequences.  Consequences, by definition, are outcomes.  The second one is a little closer to a consequence, but only because you believe that the stakes are very high.  I think that reality vs belief is a little at odds here.  As I said, statistically, an assault or a fight is very scary, but your odds of death or permanent injury are really quite low, even if you don't fight back at all.  Though, in the moment, it may not feel that way.





> Maybe a year or two ago I was threatened by a homeless man.  He was a big dude, maybe 6'3" or a little taller, and looked strong.  He was unarmed as far as I could tell, but was clearly suffering from schizophrenia.  He was paranoid and angry and I'm sure he thought I was one of the lizard people or something.  Fortunately a friend of mine was nearby, he walked over and together we warned the guy away.  Violence averted (thankfully -- that dude was big and crazy).  But let's say my friend hadn't been around?  What if big crazy dude attacked me?  You can't really reason with somebody who is experiencing hallucinations and paranoia, and it's not like he wanted my wallet or anything I could give him.


I think it's healthy to be wary of folks who are clearly having some hallucinations or delusions.  However, once again, this isn't a consequence, it's a condition.  And again, while this probably felt really scary to you at the time, what happened to you (nothing) is what usually happens.  Statistically, only about 3 to 5% of violent acts can be attributed to people with mental illness, and the reality is that the person you were afraid of is actually the one who is most at risk for being violently attacked.  People with serious mental illness are statistically over 10 times as likely as the general population to be victims of violent crime.  





> Now that I'm married, I've got to watch out for my wife as well.  When we have kids, that's an additional group of people who I have to be able to protect.  I might have been able to run away from crazy homeless dude if he had attacked me.  But I'm not going to do that if it means leaving my wife with the baby stroller while I bravely run away.  Fortunately I live in a very pro-gun state, where we've got Constitutional Carry.  If I get too worried I'll just get a gun (well, another gun).


Sure.  Just shoot the guy.  That always works out really well.





> In a street fight scenario, TKD gives you really effective kicks.  And most people aren't prepared at all for an effective head kick.  And TKD doesn't make you _worse_ at punching or grappling.  You'll probably remain exactly as good as you were before, except you'll be in a lot better physical shape and you can kick dudes in the face.  Against most people, in fights you can't avoid, that may very well be enough.


Sorry.  Can you remind me how often you've put this to the test?  Just want to be clear... is this theoretical commentary or based on your experience fighting in the streets.

And to bring this back around to the main point, how does your training prepare you for this, if you can't manage a well rounded MMA fighter who is at roughly the same size and skill level as you?  I'm not talking UFC here.  It was a comment by @skribs along these lines that prompted my initial question.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

You don't know the consequences until the fight is over, though.

To give context, I'm a criminal defense attorney.  I know exactly how bad fights can go because I've represented people who got in them.  Sure, most don't end up with hospitalization or death, but some do.  The problem is, you don't know how bad the outcome will be when the attack begins.  Crazy homeless guy might punch you a few times, knock you down, and then run off.  That's 100% possible.  It might even be the likely outcome.  But he might also smash your head into the curb until your skull splits open.  You don't have any way to know until it's over.  That's why the smart thing to do is avoid those fights if at all possible, and if you can't avoid them, you don't screw around.

I haven't been in a "street fight" since junior high.  But I know how I was when I started TKD.  We spar a fair amount at my school, and I know that when I was a white belt, the black belts could tag me with any kick they wanted, any time they wanted.  I take my black belt test in December, and now sparring white belts makes me feel like a character from a video game. 

As far as taking on MMA fighters, I wouldn't want to do that.  Your average person (who, proportionately, will make up the great majority of the people in average fights) doesn't have any training in any martial art.  They aren't good boxers, they aren't good grapplers, they aren't good clinchers, they aren't good kickers.  With TKD you become a very good kicker, so that's an advantage over the average person.  One big advantage is probably all you need.  But an MMA fighter has to be at least decent at everything.  If you can keep the fight at kicking range you'll do well, but as soon as he realizes you're a better kicker than he is, he will try to get closer.  MMA fighters are by definition, not average.  Your chance of running into one "in the wild" and getting into a fight that can't be avoided is pretty rare.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 5, 2020)

Buka said:


> Might go blind.


My eyes have been getting worse for years...


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> I'd call these (e.g., being unable to avoid a fight) conditions of the fight, not consequences.  Consequences, by definition, are outcomes.  The second one is a little closer to a consequence, but only because you believe that the stakes are very high.  I think that reality vs belief is a little at odds here.  As I said, statistically, an assault or a fight is very scary, but your odds of death or permanent injury are really quite low, even if you don't fight back at all.  Though, in the moment, it may not feel that way.I think it's healthy to be wary of folks who are clearly having some hallucinations or delusions.  However, once again, this isn't a consequence, it's a condition.  And again, while this probably felt really scary to you at the time, what happened to you (nothing) is what usually happens.  Statistically, only about 3 to 5% of violent acts can be attributed to people with mental illness, and the reality is that the person you were afraid of is actually the one who is most at risk for being violently attacked.  People with serious mental illness are statistically over 10 times as likely as the general population to be victims of violent crime.  Sure.  Just shoot the guy.  That always works out really well.Sorry.  Can you remind me how often you've put this to the test?  Just want to be clear... is this theoretical commentary or based on your experience fighting in the streets.
> 
> And to bring this back around to the main point, how does your training prepare you for this, if you can't manage a well rounded MMA fighter who is at roughly the same size and skill level as you?  I'm not talking UFC here.  It was a comment by @skribs along these lines that prompted my initial question.



You're the one who brought up the idea of a "real fight."  Why do you keep saying I'm the one that brought it up?

I know based on Taekwondo guys I've seen in MMA fights and street fights.  I personally have managed to avoid getting into fights.

I'm going to echo what TKD eagle said.  Someone who picks a fight with me that I can't get out of, I'm going to assume Terminator rules apply.  If they can't be reasoned with or bargained with, I assume they will not stop until I'm dead.  I will do everything in my power to make sure that doesn't happen, by eliminating their ability to continue the attack.  At such point in time as the attack stops, so will my defense.  

Taekwondo doesn't go out the window.  WT sparring does, in favor of techniques that aren't allowed in WT sparring. A lot of these are techniques I've learned in Taekwondo, but don't use in sparring.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> You're the one who brought up the idea of a "real fight."  Why do you keep saying I'm the one that brought it up?
> 
> I know based on Taekwondo guys I've seen in MMA fights and street fights.  I personally have managed to avoid getting into fights.
> 
> ...


I brought it up because I was curious whether or not (and why) you think that it's reasonable to believe TKD artists would need to adapt to an MMA bout, but not to a "real fight".  Still curious.  

So, if I understand your points, in a real fight, you aren't going to use your TKD.  You'll just go terminator?  I mean, I see that you're saying the TKD doesn't go out the window... but do you train terminator fighting in your school?  Seems like a no brainer to say, if we agree you'd have to adjust to an MMA ring, you'd also have to adjust to a terminator rules fight, too.  Right?


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> I brought it up because I was curious whether or not (and why) you think that it's reasonable to believe TKD artists would need to adapt to an MMA bout, but not to a "real fight".  Still curious.
> 
> So, if I understand your points, in a real fight, you aren't going to use your TKD.  You'll just go terminator?  I mean, I see that you're saying the TKD doesn't go out the window... but do you train terminator fighting in your school?  Seems like a no brainer to say, if we agree you'd have to adjust to an MMA ring, you'd also have to adjust to a terminator rules fight, too.  Right?



I'm not going terminator, I'm assuming they are.

The difference is in preparation.  I can adjust my training to prepare for an MMA fight. A real fight you don't have that luxury.

For example, if I schedule an MMA fight for next Thursday, then I can try and work takedown defense and head punches into my game.  If I'm fighting for my life, then I don't have the time to add those things into my training.  Thus, I have to use what I know.

What I know are effective techniques. There are holes in my game. I recognize this, but as of yet I haven't rectified it.  However, I do have legitimate techniques that can give me a chance.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm not going terminator, I'm assuming they are.
> 
> The difference is in preparation.  I can adjust my training to prepare for an MMA fight. A real fight you don't have that luxury.
> 
> ...


If it's not possible to prepare for a real fight, why train at all?  Your logic is making me dizzy.  Said the other way, if you can't hang in a fight against a person who has roughly the same degree of training, the same size, etc...  what makes you think you're at all prepared for a "real fight"?

Edit:  To clarify, I think your choice of words was very apropros.  You said that Terminator rules apply.  This is, IMO, very insightful, because it acknowledges that there are ALWAYS rules... whether it's a statutory rule, a social rule, or a competitive rule.  So, you acknowledge that you'd need to modify your game for one rule set, but not for another that seems even further removed from your actual training.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

I think he's saying that you have warning ahead of time in an MMA bout, whereas "real fights" happen without much notice.  You don't have the opportunity to cram or modify anything, you're stuck with what you got.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> If it's not possible to prepare for a real fight, why train at all?  Your logic is making me dizzy.  Said the other way, if you can't hang in a fight against a person who has roughly the same degree of training, the same size, etc...  what makes you think you're at all prepared for a "real fight"?



If my logic is making you dizzy, you may want to sit down or put me on ignore, because it's pretty simple.  

Unless I'm mistaken, you don't just get put into an MMA fight.  It's not like I will be walking to the grocery store and an octagonal cage will materialize around me with an MMA fighter in it.  You typically prepare for them.  This gives you time to adjust your training for that fight.

If someone jumps you on the street with a knife, you can't say, "let's duel in 2 months, after I've trained knife defense."  You're stuck with whatever training you have.

Let's take for example this guy who had road rage.  He got out of his car, came up to mine and started arguing with me, even threatened to beat me up.  He was blocking me from driving off.  He decided to back away when I pulled out my cell phone and started to call the cops.  

Had he followed through on his threat to "beat me up", I would have had no issue using my car as a weapon.  I don't know how much violence he intends to inflict when he wants to beat me up, and I'd have no issue using whatever means I have available to defend myself.  

If I didn't have a weapon available, what do I have? I have extremely good kicks, I have decent punches and sweeps.  I'm going to try to kicl sensitive areas that are usually banned in most competitions, throw my attacker into something hard, or find an improvised weapon.  I am better able to do all of this because of my Taekwondo, than if I had no training.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> I think he's saying that you have warning ahead of time in an MMA bout, whereas "real fights" happen without much notice.  You don't have the opportunity to cram or modify anything, you're stuck with what you got.


Sure.  But that doesn't really make sense.  Does it?  Not the advance warning part... the preparation part.  It's the difference between planning for something that will happen versus planning for something that might happen.  

Let's say for sake of discussion, it's something less dire.  So, instead of fighting, it's something like running a 10k/6.2 miles.  Most people can run without any additional training (just like fighting).  Few can just pick up and run a 10k without some preparation.  But the question is, what difference does it make whether you are preparing for a 10k you know you will be running, or you're choosing to prepare to run a 10k that may come at any point?  The logic here seems to be that it makes perfect sense to prepare for a 10k you know is coming, like fighting in MMA.  But, for whatever reason, there's just nothing to be done about a 10k that might happen any time.  

I'm suggesting that the preparation should look pretty similar... if you're acknowledging you need to prepare for fights in one context, it just stands to reason that you would need to do so in another more random, more volatile, less restrictive context.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> If my logic is making you dizzy, you may want to sit down or put me on ignore, because it's pretty simple.
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, you don't just get put into an MMA fight.  It's not like I will be walking to the grocery store and an octagonal cage will materialize around me with an MMA fighter in it.  You typically prepare for them.  This gives you time to adjust your training for that fight.
> 
> ...


I just don't think it's logic.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm tracking what you're saying.  I was trying to be polite.  If someone jumps you on a street, and you can't even handle yourself in a duel that's 2 months away, what makes you think you can handle yourself without any warning in a much more dire situation?  That's just not a reasonable position to take.  It defies logic.

Edit:  I guess I should ask, how does your TKD training help you prepare to run someone over with your car?


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> I just don't think it's logic.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm tracking what you're saying.  I was trying to be polite.  If someone jumps you on a street, and you can't even handle yourself in a duel that's 2 months away, what makes you think you can handle yourself without any warning in a much more dire situation?  That's just not a reasonable position to take.  It defies logic.



Let's step back.  Let's take me and TKD out of it.  Because it's not exclusive to TKD.  Every single art has the same problem.  There are gaps.  This goes for arts that are more common in MMA, like boxing and wrestling.  A boxer or wrestler will need additional training to excel in MMA.  Yet, there's countless times you see people with just boxing or just wrestling who defend themselves very well.

I'll leave it to you to figure out why that is, since you're apparently so much smarter than me.  Why is it that a boxer can defend himself in a sudden street fight, or a BJJ fighter can handle a bully on the basketball court, but the same fighters could easily lose an MMA match if the other fighter knows their weaknesses?


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm not going terminator, I'm assuming they are.
> 
> The difference is in preparation.  I can adjust my training to prepare for an MMA fight. A real fight you don't have that luxury.
> 
> ...



Why don't you have take down defense or head punching in preparation  for a street fight?


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> Let's step back.  Let's take me and TKD out of it.  Because it's not exclusive to TKD.  Every single art has the same problem.  There are gaps.  This goes for arts that are more common in MMA, like boxing and wrestling.  A boxer or wrestler will need additional training to excel in MMA.  Yet, there's countless times you see people with just boxing or just wrestling who defend themselves very well.
> 
> I'll leave it to you to figure out why that is, since you're apparently so much smarter than me.  Why is it that a boxer can defend himself in a sudden street fight, or a BJJ fighter can handle a bully on the basketball court, but the same fighters could easily lose an MMA match if the other fighter knows their weaknesses?



Because if you fight a better guy you will probably loose. 

So if you can punch and the other guy can punch kick and wrestle. He has the advantage of a better system.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Why don't you have take down defense or head punching in preparation  for a street fight?



Why don't boxers train kick defense or takedown defense?



drop bear said:


> Because if you fight a better guy you will probably loose.
> 
> So if you can punch and the other guy can punch kick and wrestle. He has the advantage of a better system.



Wow, boxers must suck, they have the worst system!

BJJ must suck, since all they can do is groundfight.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> Let's step back.  Let's take me and TKD out of it.  Because it's not exclusive to TKD.  Every single art has the same problem.  There are gaps.  This goes for arts that are more common in MMA, like boxing and wrestling.  A boxer or wrestler will need additional training to excel in MMA.  Yet, there's countless times you see people with just boxing or just wrestling who defend themselves very well.
> 
> I'll leave it to you to figure out why that is, since you're apparently so much smarter than me.  Why is it that a boxer can defend himself in a sudden street fight, or a BJJ fighter can handle a bully on the basketball court, but the same fighters could easily lose an MMA match if the other fighter knows their weaknesses?


Hold on.  No reason to get snarky, and to be clear, I'll get to your "why is it questions" in a minute.  But first, I think when you talk about transfer of learning, you're making an excellent point.  BJJ fighters train for BJJ matches. If they want to be able to compete in a Judo tournament, they would train accordingly.  If they want to compete in an MMA match, they would train accordingly.  While there is no single bright line from untrained to street fighter, I think it's pretty easy to see the accumulation of skills and complexity.  

And generally speaking, one's ability to transfer learning from one context A to context B depends on two simple things.  How skilled you are in context A?  How similar is context A to context B?  So, for example, it will be easier for a skilled Judoka to compete in a BJJ tournament than for a skilled TKDist.  It will be easier for a skilled Thai Boxer to transition to kickboxing than a Judoka.  And so on.  A guy like @Tony Dismukes who has wrestled, boxed, sumo'd, jiu jitsu'd, and ninja'd his way through his martial arts training has a lot of accumulated experience not just in the styles, but in synthesizing the skills and transferring his learning.  

You have control over both of these things, because you can accumulate skill if you train well, and you have agency over which contexts you choose to train for.  Meaning, if you want to train striking, you can.  Just do it.  And if you want to learn to be a skilled striker, well, that's a different discussion, but point is, you have some control over that.  What you can't control is the other person/people.  Their skills and abilities are outside of your control.  So, if self defense is your goal, what sense does it make to presume that potential foe is unskilled?  That's backwards.

MMA is a context in which there is striking and grappling, standing and on the ground.  It is pretty much the least restrictive rule set around right now for unarmed fighting, and I would view street fighting (not de-escalation, emotional intelligence, not being a jerk, or any other "self defense" type things) as being on the OTHER side of MMA in terms of skills that may come into play, complexity, scope, and risk.  Simply put, if you aren't prepared for an MMA match against someone who is roughly your same skill level, size, and age, how could you believe you are prepared for something riskier, more complex, and potentially broader in scope?

So to your "why is it" questions.  The answer is about context.  If a boxer gets into a situation that plays to his skill set, he has a better chance of transferring his learning.  If a boxer is taken to the ground, whether on a mat, in a cage, or on the street, he's going to be in trouble.  If a BJJ guy gets into a situation that plays to his skill set, he's going to have a good chance of transferring his learning.  Same thing with TKD, etc.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> Hold on.  No reason to get snarky, and to be clear, I'll get to your "why is it questions" in a minute.  But first, I think when you talk about transfer of learning, you're making an excellent point.  BJJ fighters train for BJJ matches. If they want to be able to compete in a Judo tournament, they would train accordingly.  If they want to compete in an MMA match, they would train accordingly.
> 
> While there is no single bright line from untrained to street fighter, I think it's pretty easy to see the accumulation of skills and complexity.  And generally speaking, one's ability to transfer learning from one context A to context B depends on two simple things.  How skilled you are in context A?  How similar is context A to context B?  So, for example, it will be easier for a skilled Judoka to compete in a BJJ tournament than for a skilled TKDist.  It will be easier for a skilled Thai Boxer to transition to kickboxing than a Judoka.  And so on.  A guy like @Tony Dismukes who has wrestled, boxed, sumo'd, jiu jitsu'd, and ninja'd his way through his martial arts training has a lot of accumulated experience not just in the styles, but in synthesizing the skills and transferring his learning.
> 
> ...



You started with the snark. Don't complain when it comes back at you.

The why is because I'm assuming the person who is attacking me has less training and less awareness of my abilities than an MMA fighter I'd be up against.

Would I feel better if I also had experience with boxing and BJJ? Yes.  And at some point I'd like to have that training.  But I am confident that if someone were to pick a fight with me, my kicks will serve me well.  This is based on numerous videos I've seen of martial artists with only one type of training who dominate a fight against a typical street opponent.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

While street fighting is potentially broader in scope than MMA, it's also significantly lower in terms of your expected opposition's talent level.

If I get into a cage match, I can expect my opponent to have several years of martial arts training, targeted specifically at cage fighting.  He will be young, he will be in fantastic physical shape, and he will have had time to study me and my techniques.  If I get into a street fight with someone, while there will be fewer rules (potentially no rules), my opponent almost certainly has less training than the MMA guy.  He's almost certainly in worse physical shape.  He may still be young, but there's a good chance he's drunk.  He probably does not have a black belt in any kind of martial art, and he won't have any idea that I do Taekwondo.  Not until he gets a foot upside the head.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> You started with the snark. Don't complain when it comes back at you.


You think I'm being snarky?  Okay.  Sorry about that.  I blame my writers.  They never can tell humor from snark.[/quote]
The why is because I'm assuming the person who is attacking me has less training and less awareness of my abilities than an MMA fighter I'd be up against.[/quote]Alright.  To be clear, your MMA opponent probably wouldn't know anything about you, either.  I mean, sure, if you get to a certain point where there's some actual footage of you fighting.  But at the level we're talking about, I'm thinking this is like a smoker bout between two schools type thing.  You can presume that your opponent has some striking, some grappling, and has been training roughly the same amount of time as you. He would probably presume the same.  

So, in a street fight, doesn't your approach seem very risky and shortsighted?  What if the person attacking you has some MMA training.  Or said another way, why would you presume that your opponent(s) have less training than a relatively new, amateur MMA fighter?


> Would I feel better if I also had experience with boxing and BJJ? Yes.  And at some point I'd like to have that training.  But I am confident that if someone were to pick a fight with me, my kicks will serve me well.  This is based on numerous videos I've seen of martial artists with only one type of training who dominate a fight against a typical street opponent.


Why are you so confident, considering you said earlier that you're not prepared for an MMA match against someone who is of similar size, age, and skill level as you?  That also seems risky and shortsighted.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> While street fighting is potentially broader in scope than MMA, it's also significantly lower in terms of your expected opposition's talent level.


Really?  Are you going to make sure your agent only arranges street fights for you with people who have no talent?  Can you forward your agent's name to me?  





> If I get into a cage match, I can expect my opponent to have several years of martial arts training, targeted specifically at cage fighting.  He will be young, he will be in fantastic physical shape, and he will have had time to study me and my techniques.  If I get into a street fight with someone, while there will be fewer rules (potentially no rules), my opponent almost certainly has less training than the MMA guy.  He's almost certainly in worse physical shape.  He may still be young, but there's a good chance he's drunk.  He probably does not have a black belt in any kind of martial art, and he won't have any idea that I do Taekwondo.  Not until he gets a foot upside the head.


Okay.  Hold on here.  Let's do some level setting.  If you're new to MMA, you are probably going to be paired up with someone who has a similar amount of training as you, is about your same size, and as an amateur will be about your same age (or fitness level).  He will probably expect you to have some grappling experience and some striking experience.  But unless you have a record, and there's some footage of your fights, that's about all that they will know about you.  Simply put, no one's going to put a TKD guy with no formal MMA training into the cage against Anthony Pettis.

Second, I'm still not clear how you can be so confident that you're going to only fight someone who has no talent (as you mentioned above), and now who is drunk, out of shape, and does not have any kind of a black belt in anything.  What if the guy isn't drunk, and has a black belt in something, and is also in better shape than you?   I guess, at minimum, I think you could set your bar a little higher.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Because most people who train martial arts have the incredible combination of a safe outlet to vent their aggression, and a healthy understanding of the dangers of fighting.

How good would it be for your martial arts career if you pick a fight with someone and end up getting your arm broken?

An MMA opponent would probably at least know that I train Taekwondo and have a general expectation that I will be kicking a lot.

To set the bar higher in MMA would mean lowering my bar in TKD.  I train enough TKD that I can't just add something else.  That time has to come from somewhere.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> Because most people who train martial arts have the incredible combination of a safe outlet to vent their aggression, and a healthy understanding of the dangers of fighting.


Unfortunately, a lot of real scum bags train martial arts.  





> How good would it be for your martial arts career if you pick a fight with someone and end up getting your arm broken?


I don't know the stats, but I'd guess that somewhere around 1 to 5% of people who train in a martial art (any art) have a "martial arts career."





> An MMA opponent would probably at least know that I train Taekwondo and have a general expectation that I will be kicking a lot.


They might.  They might also be aware you have no grappling experience.  True.  





> To set the bar higher in MMA would mean lowering my bar in TKD.  I train enough TKD that I can't just add something else.  That time has to come from somewhere.


It's about your goals.  I'm not suggesting that you change your training.  I'm simply pointing out to you that you are not training for a street fight in exactly the same way you are not training for MMA.  And you're gambling on things you can't control that the street fight you do get into will play to your strengths to facilitate a transfer of learning.  As I said before, that just seems risky and short sighted... if self defense is the goal.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

I can live in fear of my shortcomings or have confidence in my abilities when I get into a fight.  I am not trying to pick a fight, so this confidence isn't likely to get me into trouble.

Should I get into a fight, I'm going to lean on my training and muscle memory.  I KNOW that I have a better chance with my traininv than I would have had without.   If it doesn't work, then that's unfortunate. But if I go into a fight thinking I'm going to lose, then I've already lost.

I've accepted the risk of fighting a better opponent or more well-rounded opponent, in that I determine the likelihood to be very low.  That's a risk I do plan to mitigate in the future.  For right now, I'm not going to fear my training is insufficient, because if I give into that fear, then that will cloud my judgment if I need to defend myself.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

I have no guarantees whatsoever in any sort of street fight.  That's part of why I avoid them as much as possible.  Given that I haven't been in one since I was like 14, I think I've done a pretty good job of that.  Martial arts training is the backup plan to the backup plan.  Eventually you hit a point of diminishing returns in regards to training. though.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> I can live in fear of my shortcomings or have confidence in my abilities when I get into a fight.  I am not trying to pick a fight, so this confidence isn't likely to get me into trouble.
> 
> Should I get into a fight, I'm going to lean on my training and muscle memory.  I KNOW that I have a better chance with my traininv than I would have had without.   If it doesn't work, then that's unfortunate. But if I go into a fight thinking I'm going to lose, then I've already lost.
> 
> I've accepted the risk of fighting a better opponent or more well-rounded opponent, in that I determine the likelihood to be very low.  That's a risk I do plan to mitigate in the future.  For right now, I'm not going to fear my training is insufficient, because if I give into that fear, then that will cloud my judgment if I need to defend myself.


On one hand, you believe you have a better chance with your training.  On the other, you talk about acknowledging your false confidence and a completely unsubstantiated risk assessment.  

This discussion we've had has been an object lesson in cognitive dissonance. Well, as long as you know it's inconsistent and unrealistic, I guess more power to you.  Just, please, don't tell your students you're teaching them self defense.  That would be dishonest of you.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> I have no guarantees whatsoever in any sort of street fight.  That's part of why I avoid them as much as possible.  Given that I haven't been in one since I was like 14, I think I've done a pretty good job of that.  Martial arts training is the backup plan to the backup plan.  Eventually you hit a point of diminishing returns in regards to training. though.


Sure.  And to be clear, I agree with you about this.

The larger point I'm making is that what you say above is honest and realistic.  To then go on about how, even if you do get into a fight, you'd round house kick the poor, fat, drunk, slob, is taking a turn into La La land because you know they'd be untrained, out of shape, drunk, and whatever else.

And if you pass that fiction onto students for profit, that's getting into some shady areas that are less benign.  A consumer entertaining these fantasies is one thing.

Let's just be realistic about what we know and don't know, and acknowledge the way human beings learn and apply skills.

Edit:  Just to add quickly that all of the above is independent of the suitability of the training.  That's where that whole transfer of learning occurs.  Some styles are better suited for combat simply because they are trained better than others.  And this is a completely different discussion.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> On one hand, you believe you have a better chance with your training.  On the other, you talk about acknowledging your false confidence and a completely unsubstantiated risk assessment.
> 
> This discussion we've had has been an object lesson in cognitive dissonance. Well, as long as you know it's inconsistent and unrealistic, I guess more power to you.  Just, please, don't tell your students you're teaching them self defense.  That would be dishonest of you.



I trust my car to get me to work.  The other day, I had a flat tire.  A couple years ago, I had a problem with the braking and steering.  Yet, for the majority of the time, my car does get me to work.  You can realize risks and limitations, and still have confidence, without having false confidence.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Let me put it a different way.  I am confident that I am reasonably prepared for common self defense situations.  I believe the situations I am not well prepared for to be uncommon.  Thus, I am confident that I have a good chance to defend myself.

Fear of those uncommon situations would put me on edge and make me less effective in those common situations.  It will not give me any benefit in an uncommon situation.  Thus, I will stick woth my confidence, pray that I don't need to defend myself at all, and hope that if I do, it falls into what I consider an expected value for a self-defense situation.


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sure.  And to be clear, I agree with you about this.
> 
> The larger point I'm making is that what you say above is honest and realistic.  To then go on about how, even if you do get into a fight, you'd round house kick the poor, fat, drunk, slob, is taking a turn into La La land because you know they'd be untrained, out of shape, drunk, and whatever else.
> 
> ...



Our school is very competition oriented.  Nobody talks about defending yourself from an attacker.  Everybody talks about what tournament judges are looking for.  I just happen to think that some of it is useful for self-defense purposes.

When I started TKD, I was so out of shape that I couldn't finish our stretching exercises without needing a water break.  I had to just stand up in the middle of stretches, go get water, and rest.  This summer we've been doing classes in an outside pavilion in the heat.  Yesterday I skipped the first water break the class took because I didn't need it and was working on my forms.  I'm not saying this makes me some ultra-badass.  I'm saying that Me + TKD is _way_ more effective than Me without TKD.

I'm a big guy, and every big redneck holds the belief that he could whoop somebody's *** if he had to.  I'm much closer to being able to actually do that than I used to be.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> I trust my car to get me to work.  The other day, I had a flat tire.  A couple years ago, I had a problem with the braking and steering.  Yet, for the majority of the time, my car does get me to work.  You can realize risks and limitations, and still have confidence, without having false confidence.


This isn’t what you’re saying, though.  You’re acknowledging the car won’t get you to work without doing some maintenance, but if you ever have to race it, you have faith.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> Our school is very competition oriented.  Nobody talks about defending yourself from an attacker.  Everybody talks about what tournament judges are looking for.  I just happen to think that some of it is useful for self-defense purposes.
> 
> When I started TKD, I was so out of shape that I couldn't finish our stretching exercises without needing a water break.  I had to just stand up in the middle of stretches, go get water, and rest.  This summer we've been doing classes in an outside pavilion in the heat.  Yesterday I skipped the first water break the class took because I didn't need it and was working on my forms.  I'm not saying this makes me some ultra-badass.  I'm saying that Me + TKD is _way_ more effective than Me without TKD.
> 
> I'm a big guy, and every big redneck holds the belief that he could whoop somebody's *** if he had to.  I'm much closer to being able to actually do that than I used to be.


seems reasonable to me.


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2020)

skribs said:


> Why don't boxers train kick defense or takedown defense?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not so much because there is more nuance attached. 

So really good boxers or BJJers can do alright against less experienced MMAers 

Kron Gracie Mark Hunt. In a real fight TKD guys can do alright against completely untrained street fighters. 

It is when you face more complete fighters that you start getting in to trouble.

And then you need to weigh up the cost of learning to be more adaptable vs the likelihood you might need it. 

So a boxer may not learn takedowns if he never faces someone who takes him down. Or a TKD guy may never learn to face a trained guy if he never has to face a trained guy. 

But whether someone wants to put the effort in is kind of a different equation to whether someone who will get mangled in a MMA fight is technically street capable.


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Not so much because there is more nuance attached.
> 
> So really good boxers or BJJers can do alright against less experienced MMAers
> 
> ...


I forgot. You don't use logic. You just base tour opinion on "what will make the arts I like look good and other arts look bad."


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## skribs (Aug 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> This isn’t what you’re saying, though.  You’re acknowledging the car won’t get you to work without doing some maintenance, but if you ever have to race it, you have faith.


I'm going to take this analogy in 2 different ways.  Each take on the analogy will contradict each other, but that's part of the problem with analogies.  I'll try to connect them to points I've made previously.

*Take 1:*  Cars designed for high-end racing (such as a NASCAR or an Indy 500 car) are not designed for the street.  They're loud, get *horrible *fuel efficiency (2-5 MPG), and they're completely stripped down of anything that can provide comfort.  They would make a horrible car for someone drive outside of the track.  But if I were to compete in NASCAR or Indy 500, I'd need a car specifically built for that.  On the other hand, if I were to go to the track and race, or just race someone on the street, I'd be racing against people in more street-appropriate cars, like an Audi or a Corvette.  _This goes back to my point that you need to be a higher caliber for MMA than the street._

*Take 2:* _This is a stretch of the analogy._  My assumption is if I go to the track, I'm going to go up against cars.  If I am on the street, I might come across another car, or even a supercar.  But I'm guessing that 90% of the people that will force me into a race are riding bicycles.  _This goes to my point on feeling confident that in the majority of situations, my skills are sufficient to defend myself.
_
If you think that it's more like 60% of people will be driving cars, then you're right, my confidence is false.  But I'm thinking it's more like 10% *in this take on the analogy.*


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## TKD Eagle (Aug 6, 2020)

My analogy would be different.  I don't expect that my car will do well in a race at Talladega.  But I do expect that it's good enough to get me away from zombies or some maniac with a chainsaw.

I'm a normal guy.  I am not a professional athlete.  Even if I trained in boxing, muay thai, bjj, and wrestling every day for the next 5 years, I still would not be a professional athlete.  I'd be 47 years old by that point.  Something can be good enough for real world use, but not suited to the very highest levels of competition.


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I'm going to take this analogy in 2 different ways.  Each take on the analogy will contradict each other, but that's part of the problem with analogies.  I'll try to connect them to points I've made previously.
> 
> *Take 1:*  Cars designed for high-end racing (such as a NASCAR or an Indy 500 car) are not designed for the street.  They're loud, get *horrible *fuel efficiency (2-5 MPG), and they're completely stripped down of anything that can provide comfort.  They would make a horrible car for someone drive outside of the track.  But if I were to compete in NASCAR or Indy 500, I'd need a car specifically built for that.  On the other hand, if I were to go to the track and race, or just race someone on the street, I'd be racing against people in more street-appropriate cars, like an Audi or a Corvette.  _This goes back to my point that you need to be a higher caliber for MMA than the street._
> 
> ...


These are good points. The problem is that this isn't actually analogous to what you're saying about your TKD.  The sticking point here is that you think self defense is actually more predictable and easier to prepare for than MMA.  The opposite is true.  So, in your analogy, MMA is the street car and "self defense" is the NASCAR race.  It's wrong way around.

Simply put, if you can't perform against a fair test of your skill in a controlled environment where you have time to prepare, how could you possibly believe you're prepared for an unfair test of your skill in an uncontrolled that comes out of nowhere?  

Now, all that said, I think it's perfectly valid to say (as @TKD Eagle has, that odds are you'll never get into a fight anyway.  That's probably true.  But that's an entirely different discussion.  In that discussion, you're basically saying that it doesn't matter if you can fight, because you're enjoying yourself and getting other benefits from the activity.  I personally think that's a very healthy attitude to have.

And lastly, to be clear, it's the same with every style.  As I said earlier, everyone who isn't routinely street fighting is going to be transferring their learning from context A to context B.  The likelihood of success in this depend on two things.  How skilled the person is in context A (which gets into not just what you're learning but how you're learning and applying the skills).  And how similar context A is to context B (which is often outside of your control).

For example, I would think that an MMA fighter (context A) would have a pretty easy time adapting to a street fight (context B).  I would think that a trained soldier (context A) would be more prepared for an active shooter situation (context B).


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

TKD Eagle said:


> My analogy would be different.  I don't expect that my car will do well in a race at Talladega.  But I do expect that it's good enough to get me away from zombies or some maniac with a chainsaw.
> 
> I'm a normal guy.  I am not a professional athlete.  Even if I trained in boxing, muay thai, bjj, and wrestling every day for the next 5 years, I still would not be a professional athlete.  I'd be 47 years old by that point.  Something can be good enough for real world use, but not suited to the very highest levels of competition.


I get it.  But as I mentioned to @skribs , just consider that you may have it backwards.  The real world uses for fighting skills are the Talladega NASCAR events, and the competitions are the street driving.  If you aren't performing well in competitions under various rule sets, I wouldn't rely on them in something more random, where the stakes are higher.

However, the good news is that, as you acknowledge, this discussion is probably moot.  The odds are that you will never need your skills. And if you do, the odds are that your skills are irrelevant in that your likelihood of surviving is unaffected by your martial skill.

Should also mention that "highest level of competition" is a specious statement.  I think a much lower bar is very reasonable and realistic.  Competition relative to your age, size, and skill level is achievable for pretty much everyone.  And it's more about building skill, accumulating experience, and having a *realistic* understanding of one's actual skill level.


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## skribs (Aug 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> These are good points. The problem is that this isn't actually analogous to what you're saying about your TKD.  The sticking point here is that you think self defense is actually more predictable and easier to prepare for than MMA.  The opposite is true.  So, in your analogy, MMA is the street car and "self defense" is the NASCAR race.  It's wrong way around.
> 
> Simply put, if you can't perform against a fair test of your skill in a controlled environment where you have time to prepare, how could you possibly believe you're prepared for an unfair test of your skill in an uncontrolled that comes out of nowhere?
> 
> ...



More unpredictable, but also lower skill requirement.  For example, let's say you're in a spelling bee.

I may tell you that you have one of 5 words, and each word is really challenging to spell.  For example:
Electrogalvanazitaion
Unsubstantialization
Ophthalmology
Adrenocorticotrophin
Electroencephalogram

Or I could give you any random word from the dictionary, of which you have a much higher chance of getting a 3- or 4- letter word than something with 20+ letters.  It's more random, but chances are that you'll get something easier.


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> More unpredictable, but also lower skill requirement.  For example, let's say you're in a spelling bee.
> 
> I may tell you that you have one of 5 words, and each word is really challenging to spell.  For example:
> Electrogalvanazitaion
> ...


Okay.  Last try for me.  In your analogy, who would be best prepared to spell "miscellaneous" off the top of their head?  Random person, out of nowhere, says, "Hey!  Spell miscellaneous correctly or I'm chopping off one of your fingers!"

Person A: who practices spelling words like "horse" and "pizza" (because he expects to only ever be asked to spell words like "taco" and "car.") 
Or
Person B: who practices spelling words like electrogalvanization (which you misspelled), unsubstantialization, ophthalmology, adrenocorticotrophin, and electroencephalogram.

I'm going with person B all day long.


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## skribs (Aug 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Last try for me.  In your analogy, who would be best prepared to spell "miscellaneous" off the top of their head?  Random person, out of nowhere, says, "Hey!  Spell miscellaneous correctly or I'm chopping off one of your fingers!"
> 
> Person A: who practices spelling words like "horse" and "pizza" (because he expects to only ever be asked to spell words like "taco" and "car.")
> Or
> ...



Innthat case, probably neither.  Because that silent C is gonna catch them both.


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> Innthat case, probably neither.  Because that silent C is gonna catch them both.


Well, I think that about sums it up.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> Well, I think that about sums it up.



So are spelling skills more important than math in determining the outcome of a cage match on the street? In this context, is grammar a subset of spelling skills, or is it a separate factor in the fight?


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> So are spelling skills more important than math in determining the outcome of a cage match on the street? In this context, is grammar a subset of spelling skills, or is it a separate factor in the fight?


I was trying to work with @skribs ' analogy.  Maybe he can answer your questions about why he chose cars and spelling over math and grammar.

But if you're asking me... I'll presume for the moment you're not trolling.  I'd say, if being prepared is the goal,one should work back from worst case, not from best case.  So, if your worst case scenario is being able to calculate a formula, and then explain your answer clearly, in writing, using well constructed sentences, then....

The point isn't that one needs to be good at everything to be good at anything.  The point is that doing simple math is fine.  But it won't help you if you're being asked to do complex math under pressure and with a high cost for failure.  Someone who does complex math routinely will be better able to transfer their learning to a new context where high level math is required.

Writing fiction and journalism are two very different kinds of writing.  A person who is a strong fiction writer will be better able to transfer his/her skills to journalism than someone who is literate but seldom writes anything.

Finally, someone who is a strong writer, who is also very comfortable with complex math will be more likely to transfer their learning to a different context than someone who can only do one or the other.

And someone who is a strong writer and a competent mathematician is asked to do a relatively simple math problem under pressure and with significant cost for failure, he or she would probably have no problem doing so.


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## Buka (Aug 6, 2020)

People who misspell a lot of words are typochondriacs.

Oh, snap!


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## Steve (Aug 6, 2020)

Buka said:


> People who misspell a lot of words are typochondriacs.
> 
> Oh, snap!


Boooooooo.  Hisssss.


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## Buka (Aug 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> Boooooooo.  Hisssss.


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## skribs (Aug 6, 2020)

Buka said:


> People who misspell a lot of words are typochondriacs.
> 
> Oh, snap!


A pastor, a priest, and a rabbit walk into a blood bank.

The rabbit says "I'm a type o."


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sure.  But that doesn't really make sense.  Does it?  Not the advance warning part... the preparation part.  It's the difference between planning for something that will happen versus planning for something that might happen.
> 
> Let's say for sake of discussion, it's something less dire.  So, instead of fighting, it's something like running a 10k/6.2 miles.  Most people can run without any additional training (just like fighting).  Few can just pick up and run a 10k without some preparation.  But the question is, what difference does it make whether you are preparing for a 10k you know you will be running, or you're choosing to prepare to run a 10k that may come at any point?  The logic here seems to be that it makes perfect sense to prepare for a 10k you know is coming, like fighting in MMA.  But, for whatever reason, there's just nothing to be done about a 10k that might happen any time.
> 
> I'm suggesting that the preparation should look pretty similar... if you're acknowledging you need to prepare for fights in one context, it just stands to reason that you would need to do so in another more random, more volatile, less restrictive context.



My coach fought once with 6 days notice by the way. So even the preparation thing isn't guaranteed.


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> I trust my car to get me to work.  The other day, I had a flat tire.  A couple years ago, I had a problem with the braking and steering.  Yet, for the majority of the time, my car does get me to work.  You can realize risks and limitations, and still have confidence, without having false confidence.



You are not selling a car you haven't driven though. Which would be the more accurate example.

Hey maybe take the car for a test drive on a track first?

No it wouldn't be the same because there are rules and time limits.


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## Buka (Aug 6, 2020)

skribs said:


> A pastor, a priest, and a rabbit walk into a blood bank.
> 
> The rabbit says "I'm a type o."



Lol!

I know I shouldn’t have done this, but I'm getting old and people sometimes piss me off. I was in the McDonald’s drive-through this morning and the young lady behind me leaned on her horn and started screaming something because I was taking too long to place my order. So when I got to the first window I paid for her order along with my own. The cashier must have told her what I'd done, because as we moved up she leaned out her window, waved to me and mouthed "Thank you.", obviously embarrassed that I had repaid her rudeness with kindness. 

When I got to the second window I showed them both receipts and took her food too. Now she has to go back to the end of the queue and start all over again. Don't blow your horn at old people, we've been treacherous a whole lot F'n longer than you have.


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## skribs (Aug 6, 2020)

Buka said:


> Lol!
> 
> I know I shouldn’t have done this, but I'm getting old and people sometimes piss me off. I was in the McDonald’s drive-through this morning and the young lady behind me leaned on her horn and started screaming something because I was taking too long to place my order. So when I got to the first window I paid for her order along with my own. The cashier must have told her what I'd done, because as we moved up she leaned out her window, waved to me and mouthed "Thank you.", obviously embarrassed that I had repaid her rudeness with kindness.
> 
> When I got to the second window I showed them both receipts and took her food too. Now she has to go back to the end of the queue and start all over again. Don't blow your horn at old people, we've been treacherous a whole lot F'n longer than you have.


My Dad likes to say "old age and treachery beats youth and enthusiasm. "


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## Flying Crane (Aug 7, 2020)

Buka said:


> Lol!
> 
> I know I shouldn’t have done this, but I'm getting old and people sometimes piss me off. I was in the McDonald’s drive-through this morning and the young lady behind me leaned on her horn and started screaming something because I was taking too long to place my order. So when I got to the first window I paid for her order along with my own. The cashier must have told her what I'd done, because as we moved up she leaned out her window, waved to me and mouthed "Thank you.", obviously embarrassed that I had repaid her rudeness with kindness.
> 
> When I got to the second window I showed them both receipts and took her food too. Now she has to go back to the end of the queue and start all over again. Don't blow your horn at old people, we've been treacherous a whole lot F'n longer than you have.


Brilliant.  You are the master.


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## Acronym (Aug 20, 2020)

skribs said:


> Pretty much every art has something about it that you will need to change in order to go into the UFC.
> 
> Boxers are going to need to learn how to protect their legs and body, and have any take-down defense
> Taekwondo fighters are going to have to learn to read punches, avoid getting their legs caught, and keep their hands up
> BJJ fighters are going to have to learn how to do things while standing up



This is a flawed analogy. Western Boxing is a combat system/sport consisting entirely of closed fight punching techniques. Therefore, a minimum test of its efficient is if it holds up against other arts when you only punch. Taekwondo is a art/sport of kicking and punching (mainly) and should therefore hold up against other arts that kick and punch, and not collapse to other ways of kicking and punching.

But of course as my experience and that of other practitioners show, what you've learned is not enough to counter someone who can box..It's only a matter of how bad he needs to be before you get steamrolled. Anybody who had not had this experience and somehow was not steamrolled by boxing, is a very very high level practitioner fighting a journeyman.


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## Acronym (Aug 20, 2020)

AceVentura said:


> Of course he says that.  He's old.



Hi there. Are you still sticking by the PC viewpoint that no arts are inferior? You think Aikido is just as valid form of self defense as Judo, Boxing, BJJ?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Hi there. Are you still sticking by the PC viewpoint that no arts are inferior? You think Aikido is just as valid form of self defense as Judo, Boxing, BJJ?


I don’t know about @AceVentura, but I am.


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## Acronym (Aug 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t know about @AceVentura, but I am.



Too deadly for the ring?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Too deadly for the ring?


I have no idea what you are referring to.


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## skribs (Aug 20, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I have no idea what you are referring to.



You and him have a lot in common.  Both of you have no idea what @Acronym is talking about.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2020)

skribs said:


> You and him have a lot in common.  Both of you have no idea what @Acronym is talking about.


Does anybody??


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