# who's who



## Hanzo04 (Jun 17, 2004)

who is the greatest hapkidoist of all time?


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 17, 2004)

I am wondering Who would ask that kind of question?

Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## SmellyMonkey (Jun 17, 2004)

My Korean masters always stress that you must move like "cat animal" in order to be great in hapkido.

So I'd say my cats have to be ranked pretty high up there....


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## Black Belt FC (Jun 17, 2004)

Non Korean In USA   JR West
Korean    IN USA      Ji Han Jae
Non Korean In Canada  Rudy W. Timmerman


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## glad2bhere (Jun 17, 2004)

Thats a pretty tough question. The Hapkido arts tend to be pretty variant and we in the here&now are at a bit of a disadvantage with the loss of records prior to the Japanese Occupation and Korean War. I also think the results would be pretty subjective, right? For instance, concerning The Man (Choi Yong Sul) himself, I would probably think that his students moved the Hapkido arts beyond what he originally gave each of them. Of the Early Choi traditions I would probably rank Kim, Moo Woong as the best 1st Generation and In Hyuk Suh as the best regarded 2nd Generation. Its a bit trickier with the Late Choi traditions since I think the best gauge of a practitioner is less what HE does and more about the sort of students he produces. Kim, Jung and Lim, Hyun Su are still producing their 2nd Gen leadership candidates so I think its still a bit early. 

Taken in a different direction the Jin Pal and Duk Mu people are pushing ahead with rapidly expanding organizations and some pretty aggressive agendas. Here in the West it would be pretty common to rate such efforts as very successful--- and by extension, the leadership---- compared with the original promotional efforts of, say, Choi Yong Sul. Guess I would have to know more about what the original question was trying to uncover.  FWIW.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 17, 2004)

in a way, that's like asking who is the greatest painter or composer of all time.  it's a subjective question, due to the "art" element in this martial art.  there's no right or wrong answer.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 17, 2004)

Dear Howard: 

Yeah, and there is also the "name recognition" factor, too. How many times have you seen Bruce Lee touted as the "Greatest Martial Artist of All Time" simply because hes' a household name, ya know? I don't think I could begin to list all of the personalities who did more, contributed more and left more. Put on paper, Bruce Lee would be all the way down the sheet--- in fine print---- next to the page number. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 18, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ... Kim, Jung and Lim, Hyun Su are still producing their 2nd Gen leadership candidates so I think its still a bit early.


bruce, master im hyun su's korean instructors are extremely impressive.  really like watching poetry in motion on the mat.  there are 3 who will be the core of his art when he moves on: rim chea kwan, shin dong won and kang won gee.  master shin recently opened a second jungkikwan dojang in daegu (with master im's support).  as crazy as it might sound, apparently he's not having the best of luck in attracting students.

in addition, there are several master jungkikwan instructors (americans) in the northeastern US.  these instructors make frequent trips to korea to further their knowledge.  it's too bad master im's branch of hapkido has such a small following in this country.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 18, 2004)

Dear Howard: 

I think you are right on the money and thats why I think its important to reserve judgement on the Late Choi traditions for just a bit yet. From all that I have seen of the recent chaos in Hapkido arts there may be a silver lining to this dark cloud. At least people have a decent idea of what they DON'T want and what is NOT good for Hapkido arts. In this way people such as Lim are under a bit of pressure to show they are moving is a new and better direction. The good news is that people who regularly rub shoulders with Lim and his people routinely report good experiences, respectful treatment, competent teaching and effective, well-organized material. The Duk Mu people may be another opportunity and the Jin Pal people yet another. I say, "easy does it", "take it a step at a time" and "do it right the first time". If we learn from the past, the benefits could be wonderful. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 18, 2004)

bruce, not quite sure what you mean by master im being under pressure to move in a new direction... to me, he is the epitome of tradition.  he professes to teach exactly what he learned from choi young sool, just as choi professed to teach exactly what he learned from sokaku takeda (for purposes of this discussion, i think we can leave aside the entire debate about whether choi young sool actually trained under takeda).  it's hard for me to imagine him changing what he teaches no matter what happens among the large hapkido organizations.

anybody who could be fortunate enough to spend a few days in master im's dojang would probably conclude that he has no need to change anything he does.  it's old style hapkido, take it or leave it.  unfortunately, in both korea and the US, most people leave it.

btw, thought i'd mention, master rim chea kwan, who is master im's chief instructor in daegu, is also known as "fireman", because he is a career fireman.  he was among those who responded to the tragic subway fire in daegu in february '03, where a psychopath set a fire inside a subway car in a station.  if i recall correctly, nearly 200 people were killed.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 19, 2004)

Dear Howard: 

Sad to have to say this, but IMVVHO the very fact that Master Im is teaching the very traditional approach as presented to him by Choi Yong Sul actually makes what he is doing, by comparison, a "new direction". As I write this here in the States I know that the Early Choi traditions as represented by a range of folks have been twisted so many ways it makes me sick at heart. There are still folks like Ji Han Jae who continue to teach their material but they can't be everywhere at once. And there are more people making things up than following traditional lines. When Master Lim comes along and teaches HIS traditions as relayed from Choi Yong Sul the material I see two major pressures he would be exposed to. One is the commercial pressure to accept folks who don't do things the same way, wanting to join his kwan, but may "corrupt" Masters' methods. The other is the overall pressure from the Hapkido community who may borrow and incoporate Master Ims' material into their own methods, once again corrupting the purity (authenticity) of the material.  I hope this is coming out clear. I didn't mean to suggest anything about Master Im, only that he may well be facing the same corrupting influences as did practitioners of Early Choi traditions and I am hoping he will fare better than did his earlier peers.  Does this make sense? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 20, 2004)

bruce, yes, you're making sense.  don't worry, i didn't take your previous post as anything negative toward master im.

your points about master im coming under pressure from others are interesting.  i haven't had extensive contact with him, but i have never heard him talk about any dealings with other hapkido organizations.  that doesn't seem to be his style.  in fact, i have never heard him, or heard of him, make negative comments about any martial artist.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 22, 2004)

GM Lim has an open door policy at the Jungki Kwan, All are welcome to come and train.  There are members of the Jungki Kwan that have been in other organizations and they all have said the same thing "There is no one in Korea like GM Lim".    When you look at many of the high ranking Masters in Hapkido that have promoted themselves or claimed that they are the new Doju Nim of Hapkido, it is nice to see someone like GM Lim who only claims what he was promoted to by his Masters, nothing more nothing less.  The Jungki Kwans training methods focus on developing awesome basics and this can be hard for high ranking masters to deal with when they realize there foundation is weak!  Some will just leave with a bad taste but it is not anything to do with the Jungki Kwans methods or Masters.   :asian: 

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Jun 22, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

......and THIS is the sort of direction I think that the Hapkido arts needed to be going in for years. I rake the leadership of various organizations over the coals because they seem to have allowed the Hapkido arts to devolve into organizational and commercial "***** fights". In my research I follow the KMA after the Yuan Dyn (Mongols) which means that we have traditions that can be documented back some 600 years. When compared with the Japanese and Chinese traditions, I am afraid that the Korean martial traditions could have reached a much higher level of sophistication had we been doing more like what you mention Master Lim Hyun Su doing for the arts. This is also the reason that I press for traditional Korean weapons rather than those borrowed from other traditions. This is also the reason I press for examining the MYTBTJ rather than studying many of the pop books of the last two decades. I could move into a rant but I think you get my point. Folks like Lim Hyun Su are doing a true service to the Hapkido arts by sticking to their guns and providing sound investigation into what we do and why. 

I also agree that a side benefit is that the "wannabees" tend to fall to the side. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing either. 

BTW: I thought I saw a blurb on a group which went to Korea recently to train with Master Lim. Were those your (NH) folks? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 22, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> BTW: I thought I saw a blurb on a group which went to Korea recently to train with Master Lim. Were those your (NH) folks?


bruce, could have been us new jersey guys, along with one antoehr of the US masters, from maine...  that was back in february... todd, have you guys been to daegu recently?


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## glad2bhere (Jun 22, 2004)

Sorry I didn't get the name of the person who led the trip. The notice was in the latest issue of TKD TIMES. How often do folks go to Korea to train? Whats the usual lead time prepping for such a trip? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 22, 2004)

bruce, the 2 instructors who led the trip were mike d'aloia from new jersey and sheryl glidden from maine.  one other student from new jersey and i also went along.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 22, 2004)

We will be going again in September.  I think Kevin might be making the trip with us as well.  Bruce, you are more than welcome to come along.  It is quite an experience training at the Jungki Kwan and talking with all the people that trained with the Founder!  I have been going since 97 at least once a year.  It is kind of addicting!  It is a great way to learn about traditional Korean Mudo, maybe the only way!

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Jun 22, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

Color me "serious".  Depending on how some other things play out I'd like to make the September event. Can you contact me off line --- or on-line if you like (maybe people lurking could use the information). Call it "the 10 most important things to know about joining our September event". What I need to know is how things are arranged to be included. Info on $$, passports, innoculations, etc. would be much appreciated. I keep hearing about various people who make the trip quite regularly. As you say, thats about the only way I'll be ab le to get connected with folks who are truely engaged in pursuing their arts.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 22, 2004)

bruce, i can give you a little general info; i'm sure todd can also cover any questions you have about his planned september trip.

passport alone is fine.  no visa required unless you stay longer than 90 days.  we didn't get any shots.  i wouldn't be any more concerned about disease in daegu than i'd be in manhattan or any other major american city.

to get from seoul to daegu, you have to change airports and take a short-hop domestic flight (35 minutes).  cost is about $60 one way.  works about like the east coast shuttles - one every hour, easy to get a reservation usually for the next flight.

master im referred us to a hotel that was about a 10-minute walk from his dojang.  it was quite cheap, especially if you double up (our double rooms were about $65/night - a bit over $30/person).  it seemed that there were a fair number of hotels in the vicinity of the dojang.

taxis are dirt-cheap in daegu.  makes a lot of sense to use them.

as for the training, again, i'd refer you to todd, but when we were there in february we did 2 sessions a day, about 3 hours each.  our instructors arranged ahead of time what we'd work on.  they spent most of their time on kuhapdo.  there are 3 main instructors, all of whom are jungkikwan masters, all of whom are amazing.

you definitely will not regret going, you won't believe how much you can learn in a short time from these guys, they are that good.

i'd just make one suggestion: be humble.  master im himself seems to be a very humble man (although very dignified - i mean humble in a very positive sense).  i have heard some unpleasant stories about folks who went into master im's dojangs with attitudes.  they don't seem to last long.

hope you can make it.  regards, howard


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## glad2bhere (Jun 22, 2004)

Dear Howard: 

Many thanks. Todd contacted me off-line and I have his phone# so I will be speaking to him directly. Just one other question. When making preparations how much "lead time" might I need? By this I mean, what is a comfortable time frame in which one can make the necessary arrangements? Pushed a bit more, what would be the tightest time frame that one could make the arrangements in. Thoughts? 

BTW: Hmmmm, "no attitude"?? Damn. Guess I'm going to have to park my "swagger" at the door, ne? Thanks for the good word.  :asian:  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## howard (Jun 22, 2004)

bruce, you shouldn't have any problem arranging the round trip flight from the states.  if you go with todd's group, todd will probably be in touch with master im about a hotel, so you're probably best off speaking directly with him.  he'll probably also coordinate a training schedule with master im and his instructors.

regarding "swagger", yeah, if you have any, i'd definitely leave it at the door if i were you.  but if you just treat the jungkikwan people with basic respect and show a desire to learn, they will do all they can to teach you.  and you will not be disappointed.

todd, hope i'm not putting words in your mouth...  all the best, howard


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 23, 2004)

Not at all Howard.  I got a chance to meet and train with Bruce a little bit out in Chicago at Kevin Sogors GM Lim seminar and I think Bruce would enjoy it.  My motto is be honest and have an honest spirit and desire to learn.  I would say you would need to make a decsision by July 16th just to have time to get the best deal on flights.  

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## iron_ox (Jun 28, 2004)

Hello all,

How about this as a supplemental question to the starter question of this thread - who was Korea's greatest martial artist in recent history?

For my money the answer is easy, Choi, Yong Sul.  EVERY throwing art and teacher passed through his doors.  The Suh family, J.B.Lee, Ji Han Jae - all of them - if someone did not, then the guy who taught him did.  Taekwondo's self defense techniques are from Chung Ki Tae in Canada - a Choi student (ref. the first Taekwondo text to see him in action - orange cover book).

Hwarangdo, KukSoolWon, blah, blah, blah, they all lead back to one man - a real man - Choi, Yong Sul.  Granted, many of the "founders" of these offshoots claim training from monks, granddad's or telepathic grannies - but for some reason they all have trained with Choi.

Just a thought.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (Jun 28, 2004)

Hello again,

As Master Miller said, I am trying to get my stuff together to get to Korea in September - if I can make it it should be fun (?) -

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (Jun 28, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

I agree with your nomination of Yong Sul Choi, but with one caveat. 

When it comes to discussing this particular person there is much that is found only in oral traditions and little in the way of documented proof. I don't say this to call HIS bonafides into question. We can discuss such things forever and a day. Rather, because his vitae is so sparse on hard evidence, I think many folks who seek to make something of themselves use Yong Sul Choi to authenticate what they do. I think it has come to work like this. 

Teacher "A" studies some stuff and maybe some of that "stuff" included time spent with Yong Sul Choi.  Now maybe Teacher "A" was concurrently studying something else, or maybe afterwards he studied something else. However, when pressed for authentification Teacher "A" tells people that he studied under Yong Sul Choi and the conclusion is that whatever Teacher A is providing must have come from Yong Sul Choi. Even students of Chois' students have laid claim to learning directly from Choi as have folks who trained with him for a few years--- or less. 

For me, then, it is enough to recognize him as the well-spring from which a Korean tradition proceeds and that he merits much regard and respect if only for that. Getting past his generation, and maybe even the next, I think we need to consider technical matters carefully. Make sense? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 28, 2004)

I have to agree with Kevin, Doju Nim Choi is THE most influencial man in modern Korean Martial Arts.  Without Choi there would be no Hapkido, Kuk Sool, Hwarangdo, Han Pul etc.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.milersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Jun 28, 2004)

Well, I would agree that we most probably wouldn't have the "things" named as they are, but we still would have had the traditions. Koreans still had "yu sool", "ship pal gi", "soo bahk", and "kwon bup". But without the Choi lineage these things you have mentioned would not have come into being, unless maybe if Jang Im Mok had been more pro-active (or maybe one of his students). The Japanese always had the edge in this matter since their culture seemed to institutionalize martial traditions with great abandon. But, now, if we are going to speak of Choi as a well-spring, why would we start there? Why not back up to King Sejo (1455-1468) whose various books and restructurings gave Korean martial science much of the foundations that it has today. Or you can use King Sunjo (1567-1608) who not only established the Royal Military Academy but also ordered the writing of the Mu Ye JeBo, the earliest version of the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Ji. For me this is where Korean martial arts really starts. As far as "hapkido" I AM grateful that we have this title rather than "hapki yu kwon sool". All the same we still would have had the activities. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 29, 2004)

But without the Choi lineage these things you have mentioned would not have come into being, unless maybe if Jang Im Mok had been more pro-active (or maybe one of his students)

There was definately some form of Yu Sool in Korea before Choi.  It is very evident that what Choi brought to the table was a very high level martial art and even though there were similar arts there were none that were at the level of Choi's Hapki Yu Sool.  This is why every major person in Hapkido trained with Choi.

Just some thoughts.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## MichiganTKD (Jun 29, 2004)

If you stay within the locking/throwing arts (i.e. Hapkido, Kuk Sool) then undoubtably Choi is important. However, even as a traditional Tae Kwon Do-ist, locking and throwing are not important parts of our program. So to say that Choi was a major influence on TKD as well as HKD/KSW is not true. If it were, TKD would include just as many locks as strikes. It does not. Some schools may teach it that way. And I consider those Hapkido or Hapkido-influenced. The majority, including ours, teach TKD as a striking/kicking/blocking art. Joint locks may have a place in our program, but not a major one. In fact, I've never seen our Instructor show locking or throwing except as minor self defense techniques. In other words, he didn't stress them. He always emphasized attacking and blocking.
I do, however, respect certain Hapkido locks as _initial_ self defense techniques. For example, if someone grabs, responding initially with a wrist torque. If they persist or attack again, using a TKD strike. I usually prefer Tae Kwon Do against more serious attacks.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 29, 2004)

Yep, and I think thats why its important to keep things framed well. Because the Koreans themselves have not been invested in raising their traditions to the level that other cultures have, I think its important to recognize when someone comes along and opens that door. The Okinawans, for instance, had their own form of self-defense (To-de) but the infusion of Chinese boxing from the mailalnd really lent versatility and structure to the art. I think that Choi's various lineages did likewise. PLEASE-- I don't want to get into that whole thing about what he studied and how far he went. I think its suffice to say that he studied "something" and he brought it back to Korea. Those who followed after him were obviously disposed towards increasing the level of sophistication and structure of the art. My sense is that they would have followed values and approaches that their teacher would have instilled in them. From that point of view I would have to go along with everyone else and ID Chois as the greatest Hapkido personality.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Jun 29, 2004)

Some of Choi's students only learned a number of techniques.   Others learned the principles of the techniques.  Wich one is going to understand hapkido and its principles better?  Many of Chois students were accomplished Taekwondoist and trained with Choi for a while so there Hapkido is going to look alot like Taekwondo.
 :asian: 
Just some thoughts.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Jun 30, 2004)

I think there can be no doubt about GM Choi's influence in Korea.  My late GM, Pak In Shyuk, used to have his picture prominently displayed on his dojang wall, and there was an obvious reverence there despite the fact he later trained with GM Suh and Seo.

I think in the striking arts, the late General Choi was probably the prominent figure in terms of promoting Tae Kwon Do as a martial art, and he likely edges out GM Hwang Kee for top spot.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 1, 2004)

I think in the striking arts, the late General Choi was probably the prominent figure in terms of promoting Tae Kwon Do as a martial art, and he likely edges out GM Hwang Kee for top spot.


I agree GM T.  I think Choi, Yong Sool in Hapkido and Gen Choi in Taekwondo.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Jul 1, 2004)

Hello Tod KJN:
I hope next time I'm in Korea I'll have a chance to come visit with your GM.  He sure sounds like the real deal to me, and you are one lucky man to have a good Master to work with.  What a novel idea to treat people with respect regardless of affiliation.  Hard to come by in these days where it sems to be the norm to snub anyone not in your particular group  Hang on to that man my friend.


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## MichiganTKD (Jul 2, 2004)

As a Tae Kwon Do Instructor and student, I hang out and practice with Tae Kwon Do people. Nothing against Hapkido, Kuk Sool, or other stylists, but they do what they do and I do what I do. When someone asks me what I practice and what I teach, I can tell them "I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor and student." No "I practice and teach Tae Kwon Do with some of this thrown in and I do this as well". I know where I stand.


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## howard (Jul 2, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Tod KJN:
> I hope next time I'm in Korea I'll have a chance to come visit with your GM. He sure sounds like the real deal to me, and you are one lucky man to have a good Master to work with. What a novel idea to treat people with respect regardless of affiliation. Hard to come by in these days where it sems to be the norm to snub anyone not in your particular group Hang on to that man my friend.


rudy, you are right, he is definitely the real deal.  todd has described him very accurately.  i can't help but be in awe of master im and his instructors.

visiting his dojang was one of the most humbling experiences of my entire life.  it was really kind of funny, the other student who was with us and who was my training partner, and i, after our first session with master im's instructors, just looked at each other and said, "damn, i feel like a brand new white belt after what i just saw!"  we were just shaking our heads in disbelief.  and, mind you, our teacher is truly excellent, so it's not as if we had never seen the real thing.

plus, master im is just such a decent, honorable man.  i remember a conversation he had with our teacher, he was talking about his upcoming trip to the u.s., and how he felt that he had to honor the memory of the late master mike wollmerhauser, to acknowledge him as a fellow martial artist.  even though he spoke in korean and used one of his senior instructors as an interpreter, it was still very moving.

finally, he can tell great stories about his years with choi young sool.  my favorite is the one about how when he first started training, he found outside lead wrist locks very painful (like all of us).  so, he did drills endlessly to increase his pain tolerance to that lock.  then one day, choi young sool was demonstrating a technique, and he put an outside lead lock on master im, and master im just smiled at him, as if to say, "this doesn't hurt any more."  so choi young sool got very stern, and slapped the living daylights out of master im!

great story.

if you have any opportunity to visit the jungkikwan dojang, don't pass it up.


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## kwanjang (Jul 3, 2004)

howard said:
			
		

> plus, master im is just such a decent, honorable man.  i remember a conversation he had with our teacher, he was talking about his upcoming trip to the u.s., and how he felt that he had to honor the memory of the late master mike wollmerhauser, to acknowledge him as a fellow martial artist.  even though he spoke in korean and used one of his senior instructors as an interpreter, it was still very moving.



Thanks for this very eloquent post about Master Im.  I sure will make every effort to visit.  Thanks for sharing this info.


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## howard (Jul 3, 2004)

rudy, thank you for your kind words.  i really hope you make it to daegu.

i'm hoping to go back in february or march of next year.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 3, 2004)

I am hoping that we will be able to bring GM Lim to the USA for 10 days next year around March.  GM T. If you go to Taegu let me know and I will give you directions and someone to call so you can go visit.  GM Lim is a great host.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Jul 3, 2004)

Thanks Todd and Howard (please just call me rudy).  I just came back from Korea, but I'll be heading back in 06, and I just can't see myself missing such an opportunity.  I'll be sure to give you a shout before I leave.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 4, 2004)

Dear Grandmaster Rudy,

If you have any seminars scheduled please let me know as I will try to make it if I am able.  I will also post it on my web site.  I have only heard good things about you and Kong Shin Bup.  :asian: 

Thank you
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## kwanjang (Jul 4, 2004)

Thank you Master Miller:  I appreciate your kind words.  Perhaps we can keep each other posted on what is happening, so we can both benefit.  My students and I are always eager to expand our understanding of Korean martial arts, and your group seems like a great place to learn more.


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 5, 2004)

My students and I are always eager to expand our understanding of Korean martial arts, and your group seems like a great place to learn more.


It is refreshing to see a 9th dan GM have a desire to keep learning!  I feel the same way and hope there will be a time SOON that we can.  As I said before I have heard only good things about GM Rudy and Kong Shin Bup. :uhyeah: 

My best to you.
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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