# TSD kicks



## J-kid (Dec 30, 2002)

Just a few questions can you discribe TSD kicks and how do they differ from MT and reglur TKD>


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 30, 2002)

To me, TSD kicks make more use of the hip and proper technique. I wish I had a site to show you, because I'm not very good at explaining LOL. Anyways, I was taught in TSD to use chambering, turning the hip over, and kicking for a roundhouse (with the ball of the foot). And side kicks are really different from TKD (to me that is). You chamber with your butt facing the target, throw the kick and turn your hip over at the same time. When the kick is fully extended, your body looks like a "T".

TKD uses "flicky" kicks (for sport reasons). Their roundhouse (or turning kicks) are brought up at a 45 degree angle (kinda looks like a front kick to me) instead of turing the hip over first. The side kicks are just thrown out. I know speed is one of the goals here, but I don't see the point in killing technique and power just to gain speed.

I did both (still in TKD and wish I was back in TSD), so I can tell ya there is a big difference LOL.

I don't know about HKD. I never done Hapkido other than some Combat hapkido. 

MT uses "power" period. Their roundhouse kicks are brought up at an angle with little chamber. They use the hip first to bring the leg up. Total hip power. Very effective kick. I use it (I stole it from MT hehehehehe).


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## J-kid (Dec 30, 2002)

Thanks if anyone has pictures or can tell me more about the kicks that would be cool.


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## mtabone (Dec 30, 2002)

I have had students who have crossed over from TKD to TSD. They say that while there are simularities, it is a huge difference. front kicks in TKD come from the ground up instead of a chambering position. side kicks as well come up instead of out. TKD kicks are mostly concerned ( THIS IS THE TKD I HAVE BEEN SHOWN, I AM NOT OUT TO OFFEND ANYONE) with points, and not actual combat. Like KarateKid said, TSD emphsises more hips and technique. 

The students who cross over say TSD is much harder, but they enjoy it more. Go figure. Interesting to note that TKD came from TSD back in the 1940's. TSD was founded in the '40's. and TKD in the '50's. interesting no?



Michael Tabone


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 30, 2002)

I knew that, mtabone  And I agree that TSD is much harder. I went from TSD to TKD and I was bored to death. Everything was simple. TSD hyung took me months to learn, but I can learn the taeguk (TKD) forms in an hour. Go figure. This is WTF TKD, though. The sport version. So, I couldn't tell ya if any other TKD is harder.


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## arnisador (Dec 30, 2002)

Check the Muay Thai forum for more on its kicking techniques, e.g.:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=982


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## white belt (Dec 31, 2002)

Poor kicking technique is equally existant in all arts using kicks.  The existance of improper technique in any MA school is not indicative of the art in general.  When will people stop trying to justify themselves by implying this?  1) After collecting enough experience by associating with different Martial Artists or 2) Possibly never because they stop looking around the next bend due to the journey thus far not being sufficient to their expectations.  A give up approach.

I have students, both permanent and prospective, who come in from other Martial Art schools.  The roundhouse alone will be used to make my point.  The 45 degree roundhouse is a medium to close range variation of the long range roundhouse. The long range roundhouse has a full basefoot pivot of 180 degrees with the basefoots toes pointed away from the target for maximum reach, power and balance.  When I evaluate the prospective student, they attend a free lesson.  It allows me to see what they know and it allows them to see what I expect from my students.  If they are previously experienced, one tell tale quality of experience indicator is if they can do the full long range roundhouse properly.  If they can't, they are either inflating their resume or were TAUGHT IMPROPERLY.  I assume they did not know better and offer diplomatically to help them achieve proper technical proficiency by learning at my school.  99 percent of the time I have to start them at a lower rank than what they held previously.  If they want to try and continue, I sign them up for only a 90 day membership.  This protects them, in their minds, from potential abuse and I can see if after 90 days they are truly trying to adapt and excel.  If they are not following instruction, and are not correcting their technique, I politely explain the best recourse is not to continue at my Do Jang.  They are then free to move on.  Those types usually bail before meeting with me because they can read the writing on the wall before the 90 days are up.  The true seekers swallow their pride and make a new level of effort.  The ones who want to perpetuate their poor experience consider my classes too hard and make excuses that are rather shallow and/or embarassing.  They then end up at a belt factory usually not far away.  They are happy and I can keep free of any contamination in my school.  They come from other TKD schools, some Karate schools AND SOME TANG SOO DO SCHOOLS.  Yes, you are reading that correctly.  In fact, the TSD school, most prominant in my area, is known for 45 minute to 1 hour classes and they do VERY little sparring.  I teach a minimum of ONE AND A HALF HOUR CLASSES.  We spar EVERY session a MINIMUM of 3 two minute rounds.  Now here is the real kicker (pun intended).... I am WTF affiliated.  I also have a clear understanding that there are a good number of TSD schools and Karate schools that DO compare with my schools dedication.  I will not allow a POORLY TAUGHT TSD or KARATE practicioner, investigating my school, to skew my view of other TSD and Karate schools overall or even for the most part.  No way in hell.  It would be unfair and make me look rather naive not to mention dishonest.  If you are involved in a bad school, get out or suffer it until you find something better, but why continuously display your lack of insight based on your present situation?  It doesn't do you justice as a Martial Artist or a peer.  Regardless of the local TSD schools rep. in my area, and your slant against WTF TKD, I appreciate and respect TSD enough to not bash it on a forum because of the aforementioned.  I know that your bias and that school are not general indicators to that wonderful art.  I really admire yours and others sense of honor toward good teachings, but there will always be McDoJangs/McDoJos in all arts so long as there are underacheivers.  Why not set a NEW YEARS RESOLUTION to be the one woman turning point in that DoJang and SMOKE THE HELL OUT OF EVERY OTHER STUDENT IN THERE PERFORMANCE WISE?  Now that would help you improve and maybe improve the quality of experience of some others like you that may have the same thoughts in that very DoJang.  Make the best of your energy expenditures and share them on-line so others in your position can also dominate their circumstance.  Bottom line, go politely kick some ***!!!!! 

white belt

p.s.
TKD schools are more common than any other type of MA school presently.  Back when Judo was the number 1 practiced Marial Art in the U.S., there were more Judo McDojos around than Karate McDojos.  It was just simple law of averages.  It did not mean that all Judo (Olympic and otherwise) sucked.  One of the oldtimers can jump in and verify this very easily.


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## mtabone (Dec 31, 2002)

Hello White Belt.

I do believe, I for one, stated," the TKD I have seen". Meaning, I am sure there are good schools of Tae Kwon Do.  And I am sure there are bad schools of Tang Soo Do. And there are schools that do Tae Kwon Do and call it Tang Soo Do, and schools that do Tang Soo Do and call it Tae Kwon Do. I am very sure of all of these. From what has walked into my studio, and the tournements (open or otherwise) the Tae Kwon Do I have seen is not the same as Tang Soo Do. KarateKid is speaking from her experences at a TSD school and a TKD school. I do not pretend to talk on the TKD community as a whole. As I can only talk from my experences. 

TSD does (typicly) do less sparring then TKD. That is indeed true. I don't see why that point was brought up? It is not a bad thing to sparr less and work on basics,hyungs, self defence, grabs, throws, weaons, (ect) and technique more. (All of these would be practiced at the advanced stages of development, not all at once for obvious reasons).
I also know people who transfered from other Tang Soo Do studios and they were not "up to par" either. McDojangs will be around as long as the public does not understand the differences between a good school and a bad one. (as well i am sure there were students from TSD and TKD that transfered that were "up to par" and had to do only slight tweaks, and learn the defence and hyungs ect)

I dont believe Tae Kwon Do has been Biased in my head, I believe the Tae Kwon Do I have seen as been. That is of course not speaking for all TKD. Only that which I have seen, heard, been shown, observed myself and from students, and fellow students. 

In the end, one need only to go and practice, train hard, laugh a little, and not worry about others training. 

Michael Tabone


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## white belt (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks MTABone!  I was more directing my statements at KKid.  You have been directly in contact with enough to see that all is pretty much equal.  The sparring thing was brought up due to the local TSD school not showing the deeper self defense in their hyung and sparring most classes not at all.  They are not left with much.  That is my point concerning THAT school.  We practice hyung with fervor and practice the apps. from them too.  I am to understand that the good TSD and Karate schools do the same.  There is a lot of fake Martial Art out there and it is good to let those jaded know that they may not have all the picture.

I am waiting to see a post about how someone waited too long at the drive up window for their lessons and then lump me in with that.  They do have drive up funerals, in California, I have seen in the news.  Why not drive up, get your next belt and the video for the next test requirements?  Better yet, combine the two.  Your saying goodbye to Uncle Fred at one window and your getting your lessons at the next window?  When/if that happens I will run into the mountains and give up on humanity.

Happy New Year!!!
white belt


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## mtabone (Dec 31, 2002)

When you go off into the mountains, get ready for some company!!! 

:boing2:

Michael Tabone


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 31, 2002)

White belt,

If you read my posts again, I'm not putting TKD in general down. I'm speaking from what I have seen and done. My present dojang happens to be TKD and it happens to be a McDojang. I haven't seen a good TKD school that matches my TSD dojang technique-wise. I'm sure there is TSD McDojangs, but I personally haven't seen one. The only TKD schools I see in my area (except one that I found the other day) have been McDojangs. But again, that's not ALL TKD schools.


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## white belt (Dec 31, 2002)

Thanks KKid.  My biggest frustration is you live a few states away and I really like to help serious students and training partners like you find every drop of their potential.  I'm sure you will find it w/o me. I wish I could do that teleport thing in Star Trek and show up in Dobok.  I'll probably see a George Dillman Ad in Black Belt magazine teaching Chi powered teleportation now.  He will probably have Spock ears on.  ARRRGGHHHH!  I HATE SLOP CHOPPY FLIP KICKY MCDOJANG!!!!  I mean ALL types.  Oh, hey, beer time!

Happy New Year!
white belt


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 1, 2003)

White belt,

I agree with you. I hate McDojangs. And I wish you could teleport your school to me. I would love it. I am a serious student of the martial arts. That's the problem. This McDojang isn't. The BIG problem is, I did find a real TKD dojang, but I'm stuck in a contract with the McDojang. I'm "stuck between a rock and a hard place", so to speak. If I could find out how to get out of the contract, I would go to this real TKD dojang in a flash. 

Oh, peace. *raises her drink*. Happy New Years. This is the time to make peace, man. My New Years thing is to go to a real Dojang. It doesn't matter if it's TKD or TSD. I just want real serious training.

Ok, back to the topic, now


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

Make yourself a pest  and whine about everything all the time, and they will want to get rid of you


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## white belt (Jan 1, 2003)

Ken is right, but they they may still hold you to your financial agreement if they are really annoyed.  I have heard of such situations.  Check out the legalities if money and credit rating are issues.  I know of someone leaving a DoJang because of contagious health conditions that arrived after the health disclosure / agreement was processed.  The Instructor was GLAD to let them go, no strings attached.  Some good theater makeup, to simulate warts on the feet and ankles, would get everybodys attention.    

white belt


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

Haha, you don't need to be theatrical. But WhiteBelt just gave me an idea. Just pretend your back hurt and you can't practice anymore. Have your doctor write a letter stating that you should not be exerting yourself. (Which your doctor will more than happy to write anything that cover his ***) Show it to the instructor, hinting that your cousin who is a lawyer is egging you to sue the dojang. But out  of your respect for him, you simply want out of the contract. I bet they will cut you loose in a heart beat. lol


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> Thanks KKid.  My biggest frustration is you live a few states away and I really like to help serious students and training partners like you find every drop of their potential.  I'm sure you will find it w/o me. I wish I could do that teleport thing in Star Trek and show up in Dobok.  I'll probably see a George Dillman Ad in Black Belt magazine teaching Chi powered teleportation now.  He will probably have Spock ears on.  ARRRGGHHHH!  I HATE SLOP CHOPPY FLIP KICKY MCDOJANG!!!!  I mean ALL types.  Oh, hey, beer time!


HA!  there is a whole thread on Dillman's No-Touch KO. Have a ball. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=60155#post60155

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=60495#post60495

You are gonna laugh your tears out.


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## KennethKu (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> Poor kicking technique is equally existant in all arts using kicks.  The existance of improper technique in any MA school is not indicative of the art in general.  When will people stop trying to justify themselves by implying this?  1) After collecting enough experience by associating with different Martial Artists or 2) Possibly never because they stop looking around the next bend due to the journey thus far not being sufficient to their expectations.  A give up approach.
> 
> I have students, both permanent and prospective, who come in from other Martial Art schools.  The roundhouse alone will be used to make my point.  The 45 degree roundhouse is a medium to close range variation of the long range roundhouse. The long range roundhouse has a full basefoot pivot of 180 degrees with the basefoots toes pointed away from the target for maximum reach, power and balance.  When I evaluate the prospective student, they attend a free lesson.  It allows me to see what they know and it allows them to see what I expect from my students.  If they are previously experienced, one tell tale quality of experience indicator is if they can do the full long range roundhouse properly.  If they can't, they are either inflating their resume or were TAUGHT IMPROPERLY.  I assume they did not know better and offer diplomatically to help them achieve proper technical proficiency by learning at my school.  99 percent of the time I have to start them at a lower rank than what they held previously.  If they want to try and continue, I sign them up for only a 90 day membership.  This protects them, in their minds, from potential abuse and I can see if after 90 days they are truly trying to adapt and excel.  If they are not following instruction, and are not correcting their technique, I politely explain the best recourse is not to continue at my Do Jang.  They are then free to move on.  Those types usually bail before meeting with me because they can read the writing on the wall before the 90 days are up.  The true seekers swallow their pride and make a new level of effort.  The ones who want to perpetuate their poor experience consider my classes too hard and make excuses that are rather shallow and/or embarassing.  They then end up at a belt factory usually not far away.  They are happy and I can keep free of any contamination in my school.  They come from other TKD schools, some Karate schools AND SOME TANG SOO DO SCHOOLS.  Yes, you are reading that correctly.  In fact, the TSD school, most prominant in my area, is known for 45 minute to 1 hour classes and they do VERY little sparring.  I teach a minimum of ONE AND A HALF HOUR CLASSES.  We spar EVERY session a MINIMUM of 3 two minute rounds.  Now here is the real kicker (pun intended).... I am WTF affiliated.  I also have a clear understanding that there are a good number of TSD schools and Karate schools that DO compare with my schools dedication.  I will not allow a POORLY TAUGHT TSD or KARATE practicioner, investigating my school, to skew my view of other TSD and Karate schools overall or even for the most part.  No way in hell.  It would be unfair and make me look rather naive not to mention dishonest.  If you are involved in a bad school, get out or suffer it until you find something better, but why continuously display your lack of insight based on your present situation?  It doesn't do you justice as a Martial Artist or a peer.  Regardless of the local TSD schools rep. in my area, and your slant against WTF TKD, I appreciate and respect TSD enough to not bash it on a forum because of the aforementioned.  I know that your bias and that school are not general indicators to that wonderful art.  I really admire yours and others sense of honor toward good teachings, but there will always be McDoJangs/McDoJos in all arts so long as there are underacheivers.  Why not set a NEW YEARS RESOLUTION to be the one woman turning point in that DoJang and SMOKE THE HELL OUT OF EVERY OTHER STUDENT IN THERE PERFORMANCE WISE?  Now that would help you improve and maybe improve the quality of experience of some others like you that may have the same thoughts in that very DoJang.  Make the best of your energy expenditures and share them on-line so others in your position can also dominate their circumstance.  Bottom line, go politely kick some ***!!!!!
> ...



I respect this very much.


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## white belt (Jan 1, 2003)

That was very nice of you to say, Ken.  I struggle with keeping my perspective at times.  I have so many people try to bamboozle me it's not funny.  It's as difficult to not be a victim business wise as it is self defense wise.  So many people, and some very nice ones, have a skewed point of reference from a McDoJang experience.  They then must be convinced that it is their experience that was lacking, not that I'm expecting unrealistic things from them when training with me.  I'm sure I am not alone.  The premise of this thread seems to be evidence of that.

Thanks,
white belt


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## KennethKu (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by white belt _
> That was very nice of you to say, Ken.  I struggle with keeping my perspective at times.  I have so many people try to bamboozle me it's not funny.  It's as difficult to not be a victim business wise as it is self defense wise.  So many people, and some very nice ones, have a skewed point of reference from a McDoJang experience.  They then must be convinced that it is their experience that was lacking, not that I'm expecting unrealistic things from them when training with me.  I'm sure I am not alone.  The premise of this thread seems to be evidence of that.



Not at all, WhiteBelt.  A  man who runs an honest operation is an honourable and respectable man.  Skills and expertise don't impress me (not b/c I think I am better than others, which I certainly am NOT)as much as sheer decency and integrity in character.

It really takes a lot to keep an open mind and remain objective, in pretty much every aspect of our lives.    Sometimes you may even kid yourself into thinking that you are open minded and unbiased when you are clearly not.  I of all people, ought to know this all too well, sadly.  :asian:


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## Sanddragon (Jan 2, 2003)

I am not sure of your current situation but the best way to remove yourself from the contract is to read it over and make sure what the termination clause is.

Following that in most cases if you simply tell the school you have to move and they can not provide the service agreed to in the contract that you must be released from it. Then after what you deem an appropriate time start at your new school.

Also the weakness of most of these contracts be it gym membership or martial arts is that they agree to provide you a service. If you are not happy with said service there is always a way out.

Ok all sorry for that bit of contract leagal ease and being so off topic. I apologize it will never happen again.


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## white belt (Jan 2, 2003)

A good bit of advice, SandDragon.  I hinted at the agreement issue, but did not take it to the proper level.  Some places will still be stubborn regardless, unfortunately.  On the flipside a "reputable" school, providing the services promised, has to protect itself w/a similar agreement to avoid flighty, untrustworthy people who can waste a teachers time.  It is not needed more than is, in my experience, but it deters the big talkers from commiting.  Big talkers, who do little, hurt the other students access to the Instructor by taking valuable time from them.  KKid seems to be the kind of student I would want training where I am.

white belt


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 2, 2003)

Thanks, White belt  I will look into the advice from you both


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 2, 2003)

i dunno why this contract thingy...it sucks big deal...  
there's only one simple contract which we hav to make n it's that to behave properly in class n outside class simple enuff...
frankly i stay away from any school which'll keep me in contracts(at least of the bigger terms)a month or couple may be good not more than that...
-TkdWarrior-


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## white belt (Jan 3, 2003)

It is partly cultural TKD Warrior.  In the Midwest U.S.A. there is a "fast food" mentality where people want instant gratification.  If they don't get it, they go elsewhere.  They don't get it there so they come back.  They bounce around and don't learn anything.  It makes a school owner go through A LOT of extra work and the contract ensures the students, who aren't commited to improve in the beginning, stick around long enough to rid themselves of the flighty behavior and maybe learn something.  This mentality is in large part why this thread started.  There is a marketplace for these flighty wannabes and there are unscrupulous McDojang owners that wait to pick their pockets.  That is how we end up with TKD, TSD, Karate people who can't kick worth a crap and have Black Belts.  Where I teach you get with the program or you suffer rank wise.  I promised myself and my students that I will CLOSE the school before I sell out with sloppy technique and fake kicks / belts.  You and KKid are examples why contracts would not be needed.  You both have tenacity and KNOW what you want.  Unfortunately you guys are in the minority where I am.  I give a free lesson.  I then allow a student to sign up for only 3 months and NO MORE.  After 3 months they are able to see for themselves what they want to do, no strings attached.  If they want to continue, they have the option of a 1 year or two year membership.  They can pay monthly, as opposed to lump sum, with no penalty of interest.  If they run into a SERIOUS life circumstance, I void the contract, out of respect and fairness, and I offer my assistance, if needed.  The student who lacks a lot of motivation looks and says "I am paying for these lessons, the lessons are not easy, but I'm going to get my moneys worth and show up on a regular basis!".  The student then develops decent technique, with regular correct practice, that would not happen otherwise if they hopped around and had a month to month memberships with McDojangs X,Y and Z.    X,Y and Zs are why people say some TKD schools KICKS SUCK!  My schools quality rep. stays intact and I don't have students who can't perform.  I would rather not have contracts, but again, most are not like you and KKid with their goals.


Thanks,
white belt


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 3, 2003)

darn those fast foods  
i never liked burgers n stuff anyways
in India there's a saying that "u'll become wat u eat" i guess it's true for all over the world   

well i understood with contracts...
i don't practice as i used to do 6.5 yrs back as i was young n hav only studies to deal with besides MA now it's studies, job, stupid unnecessary things n then MA... but i m not blown away...hav lot of MA in me 

my teacher does'nt hav contract things n he hav faithfull followers 
3 of them is 1st degree BB with at least 8-9 yrs of training in TKD couple of Blue belts n some lower belts including me...most of his lower belts hav at least 3 yrs regular practice under him...
so many teachers came n tried to steal his students but no one left him...
i m not in BB terms(may be won't even grade) mostly enjoying tools/phyloshophies of TKD which i can use in Self Defense
-TkdWarrior-


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 3, 2003)

Thanks again, white belt  You're right, too. Eventhough I'm stuck with the McDojang, I'm not going to let my technique suffer. My TSD instructor was tough on technique, and he rubbed off on me. I ALWAYS work on technique. I don't care if the instructors here (TKD school) do or not. They might pass me for anything, but if I don't like my technique, I won't let them pass me. I might only be a blue belt, but my technique is better than most of the higher belts there (except for 3 or 4 of them). It's not an ego thing either, because I think I suck. I'd love to train at your school. If I travel your way, I'll be sure to stop in


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## Shinzu (Jan 5, 2003)

i can vouge for a tsd mcdojang.  been there...trained that.   when i first started tsd i was with what i concider a "mcdojang".  don't get me wrong i did learn alot and was grateful for their teachings, but everything you trained for was for testings.  it was not a serious self defense school either.  i want hardcore training.  i want to be prepard if i am faced with a situation in the streets.  my new school does just that.  

there were also philosophies that my old school did not teach, but my new one does. my old instructor would limit your knowledge by your rank, but my new one will teach you if you are ready to learn (even if it is not required for testing). 

don't get me wrong, my old school helped my transition from shotokan to tsd, but it was more about the money than the learning.  they were passing students for their black belts that should have been held back.  that's when i knew it was time to move on.  my first degree BB test was 1 hour long.  i trained so long and hard that i was ready for anything.  i was dissapointed.  

my second degree test at my new school lasted 3 1/2 hours with a 7 mile endurance run on top.  what a difference in quality... and the price was cheaper...go figure!!


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 5, 2003)

Shinzu,

I am in the same situation as you. Going from TSD to TKD, my TKD school is a McDojang. They passed two BB's that didn't deserve it, and pass others who don't either. And they are WAAAYYYYY to expensive. But yet, I found a good TKD school that I want to go to, but I'm trying to get out of the contract with the McDojang.


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## mtabone (Jan 7, 2003)

This thread is really interesting. TSD kicks and TKD kicks are not the same though. They really are not. It has nothing to do with McDojo or McDojang.  Some of my student on vacation decided to look around the web and they came by chance across this site. They saw the posts back and forth. They transfered over from TKD to Tang Soo Do. I had a little one the side session with them in the way of their TKD kicks were in comparison to the TSD kicks they are doing now. So I said, ok, that is one way TKD schools could do them. Then it got me on the research gear. I called some buddies who used to train in TKD if they would not mind getting together and showing me thier kicks. I mostly concentrated on front, Round, Side kick durring all these sesions. Ok, basicly, same conclusion as the first set of "examples" I had gotten. So, still saying to give it a couple of more shots, I looked at some Video tapes of some TKD competiters in forms and such. Same kinds of kicks. The kicks are simply not the same as TSD. Not as much Emphasis on hips and rotations, tucking, and power. All these TKD people came from different schools and federations. In my little side study, their was about 12 different Practitioners of all different schools and feds/orgs. They all basicly Described the same tech. for their kicks. I am not saying anything about one being better or worse, or the reason they are different, but they are indeed different. 

WhiteBelt, I know you are watching ever vigil over this thread (  ). I am not attacking TKD. Perhaps your School is different. Ok. 95% of the time TKD kicks are not the same as TSD. if they are, you are not doing TKD. It is interesting that since Tae Kwon Do came from Tang Soo Do that the kicks were changed. Interesting development. That should be the start of its own thread, on Why the dirrection change in TKD? That would yield some interesting disscusion I think!!!!


With Respect,
Michael Tabone


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## white belt (Jan 7, 2003)

MTabone,

Yes, you are attacking TKD, Crap TKD!  For this I applaud you!  I attack Crap TKD too, when given the opportunity.  We are allies against poorly taught MA.  I will say that errant organizations and schools do not change the definition of the correct traditional schools art.  That is where you are being mislead by your limited resource study.  I say limited because the TKD schools I compete and affiliate with DO NOT fit your studys archetype.  For every argument/study for, a counter can be made against.  I have been down this road before.  If I were to use the contacts I frequent as a base for a scientific study, the data would skew in my favor.  That in itself does not mean it is representative of the whole.  I have seen good TKD (yes, hands up even) on video from outside my contact realm and I have seen what you describe too.  And noooo.....I assure you I am learning and teaching AUTHENTIC TKD.  My Korean Grandmaster is 60 something and 9th Dan.  He is Moo Duk Kwan of origin.  As you are probably aware, the Moo Duk Kwan split in two when the major Kwans merged to form TKD back in the 1950's.  The kicking techniques were taken along to TKD that were a part of the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum.  Funny thing, the kicks were in large part THE SAME from the OTHER Kwans.  So, the remaining structure of the Moo Duk Kwan, that came to represent the remainder of Tang Soo Do, from Hwang Kee, apparently did not have the market cornered on correct kicking technique and a patent.  Read the prior three sentences and feel like my long lost cousin, not a victim of identity theft!  As far as patents go, didn't the Okinawans and Chinese come after you TSD guys like this, years ago, waving a fake patent too?  Just how many of these are floating around?

Now, looking at the modern day turn of events where we have the two divergent extremes in TKD martial quality.
Consider this, Ten-Twenty years in the future, I am bitten by marketing genious and I distribute en masse a more sporting mass appeal version of Tang Soo Do.  It represents the art of Tang Soo Do that you presently practice only in small part.  According to your logic then because of the upstart TSD  version I marketed AFTER yours existed, yours could no longer be called REAL Tang Soo Do.  I will repeat my prior statement, ERRANT ORGANIZATIONS AND SCHOOLS DO NOT CHANGE THE DEFINITION OF THE CORRECT TRADITIONAL SCHOOLS ART.  I can appreciate your disgust with the "art being lost in sport" situation.  A good part of the Judo of today does not resemble the Judo of Jigoro Kano's era very well.  If Jigoro were alive today, (he would be very old), would you tell him that what he was practicing was NOT REAL JUDO?

I see poopy Karate, TKD, TSD, Judo, etc. schools, as well as good, in close to the SAME RATIO.  Out of those four Martial Arts, hands down, there are WAY more TKD schools in existance ergo you will see more poopy TKD schools than poopy TSD schools, etc.

My GM periodically talks about how people mix up their points of reference in Martial Arts due to bias.  The purpose it serves ultimately is not their own.

Thanks for the fun,
white belt


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

nice posts here   kicks from different styles are mostly the same (i think) by which part of the foot you hit you opponent with.  the construction of the kick may be different but the result is the same.  ultimatley it is the instructor who will teach a technique the "traditional" or "non traditional" way.  this can be argued back and forth, but it all lies within the instructors boundries... no matter what style you study.


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## mtabone (Jan 8, 2003)

Just to say this, most of the people I used in my Granted, unscientific, case study were not from my Frequent martial arts contacts, most of them where from outside of my school. Many are proponents of TKD! Just had to say that.

Of course I know the History of the Moo Duk Kwan. That is a huge debate all together. One road I have seen and been down on many occasions. I am not sure if MartialTalk.com has seen it, if it has you would probably know better, having been posting here longer. 

Where do the Kicking Techniques that TSD does come from? Many say KJN Hwang Kee Inovatingly changed them. some say they came from Chinia, some say this and that. And one of them is Obviously true. But it is the current state I am interested in, to simply state it. 

And to me, all martial artists "feel like my long lost cousins". TKD Practitioners, the REAL TKDers, like yourself, are indeed TSD cousins. But, they are still, very different arts. Again,  I am not saying better, or worse, just merely different.  Nothing wrong with that.

Though, I will keep my eyes open for TKD schools that teach they way you say they teach.

Perhaps one day, we can have an internet where we can project holograms of ourselves doing these kicks,  that you can see in three-d, and from every angle. (cameras just don't cut it sometimes) Then this discusion would have been about 2 pages shorter. :idea:  :boing2:  :asian: 

Respectfully Yours In The Martial Arts,
Michael Tabone


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

i have studied japanese shotokan also.  it is extremely close to TSD.  it was founded by gichen funakoshi.  some say hwang kee and funakoshi trained together.. thus building the foundation for TSD techniques.  having trained in both i can see where this would be true.


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## TkdWarrior (Jan 8, 2003)

> Perhaps one day, we can have an internet where we can project holograms of ourselves doing these kicks, that you can see in three-d, and from every angle. (cameras just don't cut it sometimes)


hmm how about sparring in Virtual world, KO's wont give u concussion, u'll feel the real hard hitting(without gettin killed)...
wow nice future 
ok from wat i see(in internet) the ppl doing TSD kicks weren't different that the way we do... so i just imagined that TSD dojang's r used to put more hand techs rather than their counterpart TKD school...





> but it all lies within the instructors boundries... no matter what style you study.


this is soooooo darn true... i hav experienced that...
-TkdWarrior-


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## white belt (Jan 8, 2003)

Ok!  That DOES IT!  This is your official NO TOUCH KO VIA THE INTERNET.  It was learned by studying Dillman methods.  It takes a little time before the effects overcome my opponents (usually about bedtime).  They usually are out cold for about EIGHT HOURS!  If that does not work, I will show up at your door and display my powers of KimChi Gong!  Crunch, crunch! (sound of cabbage being chewed).  If you are not familiar with KimChi Gong I suggest you look at the "More No Touch KOs" string.  You have been warned!  No more talk of sloppy TKD kicky!

slightly beige belt
(ran out of bleach).


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

there is a fair amount of hand and foot techniques in TSD.  i don't know much about TKD so i really couldn't say.. plus i don't believe in style bashing.  every style has their fair share of mickey mouse schools and instructors.


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## KennethKu (Jan 8, 2003)

What do TSD practitioners do to condition/harden they weapons (hand, fist, kicking tools)?  How do you train to increase speed and power (besides techniques)?


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## Shinzu (Jan 8, 2003)

we use heavy bags and makiwara for conditioning.  we also do power drills for speed and power. i found the best way to increase these things is repeated practice.


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## Juche02 (Jan 18, 2003)

First of all, this is a ******** question to ask how we do this. A lot of martial artists CROSS-TRAIN. For example, I have a 3rd Degree Black Belt in TaeKwonDo and a red belt in Tang Soo Do. So I can tell that there is a huge difference in the application of the techniques (chambering, form, all that good stuff...). Plus, I run around the LSU lakes, anywhere from 4 to 10 miles. In class, at my tang soo do school, we have been doing a lot of ab work lately. Sa bom nim Tullier has been going nutz lately. Pushing us hard. ih. We have punching posts, Kicking Dummies, Heavy Bags (water and sand), do push-ups (all types....), Stance drills that can really strengthen your legs, knees....I am about to incorporate a stretch from Brazilian Jujitsu in my training. It is difficult, but effective.  There is no simple answer to how members of our style train. It is up to the instructor teaching that class. he is in charge of the class. whatever he feels needs to be done. plus, everyone trains on their own (if they are good....).

 Anywayz, sorry for my little tirade. but the taekwondo organization I was in....was too political...too americanized. The leg drills we did (tons of leg drills)....that is another difference. One drill we would do is to stand on one leg, pivot, lift the front knee and chamber for a kick, do about 30 of them slow and without setting our leg down or falling (hopefully), setting the leg down, and then switching legs. Then we moved on to the next kick. There is no consistency in the training art of a style. It can be quite different from Dojang to Dojang.


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