# How to be Self-taught?



## marvelous65

Hi Folks,

I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project.  I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community.  So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes.  Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag.  With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont).  I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes.  So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?


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## Mephisto

Not possible. It's a bad idea, go get proper instruction. This topic has come up here before. Martial arts is not quilting, or running, you need instruction. I've met a few self taught martial artists, I was not impressed and they all overestimated their ability. Is there a reason you can't get proper instruction? I'd like to fly airplanes, even just small ones, I don't want to be a fighter pilot or anything. But something tells me I should get proper instructions.


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## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts



What's 'razing'? and shadow sparring can be done anywhere basically BUT you cannot teach yourself martial arts, you can teach yourself to play at it but you won't have correct stances, techniques nor any skill you will just be mimicking movements and badly at that. I'm sorry it's harsh but as Mephisto says, it's something you can't learn by yourself no matter how good you think videos are, you will end up injuring yourself or someone else


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## oftheherd1

The usual problem is with small things you cannot notice yourself.  Sometimes they may not be a big problem, others they will be big.  You may not generate the correct power, or learn to block correctly, or not be able to use a move for another technique properly.  The more things are not done optimally, the more chances for you to be injured in practice, of if you find yourself needing to use what you have learned on your own, in a real fight.

There are instructors that use videos, but also require the instructor to see what you have learned by video or live computer programs.  I think we have several here, in different martial arts who do that.  I know our own member, Instructor does.  I think the Combat Hapkido does that as well.

That is why most discourage self learning of MA; too many things you will think you are doing correctly, but don't have the training and experience to realize are at best, just wrong, or at worst, dangerous.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> What's 'razing'? and shadow sparring can be done anywhere basically BUT you cannot teach yourself martial arts, you can teach yourself to play at it but you won't have correct stances, techniques nor any skill you will just be mimicking movements and badly at that. I'm sorry it's harsh but as Mephisto says, it's something you can't learn by yourself no matter how good you think videos are, you will end up injuring yourself or someone else



Raising knee strikes.


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## marvelous65

Not possible. It's a bad idea, go get proper instruction. This topic has come up here before. Martial arts is not quilting, or running, you need instruction. I've met a few self taught martial artists, I was not impressed and they all overestimated their ability. Is there a reason you can't get proper instruction? I'd like to fly airplanes, even just small ones, I don't want to be a fighter pilot or anything. But something tells me I should get proper instructions.

Regarding your question as to why I choose not to get proper instruction I am attempting to be self-taught as part of a larger educational project for learning how to learn.  This is for a column I'm writing on self-education for an online magazine.  Also, while I recognize the shortcomings of being self-taught, I believe, with diligent practice, I can develop decent skills.  I am self-taught chess and can play in tournaments; and I'm mostly self-taught writing and have been published in internationally circulated newspapers.  So why not martial arts?  If you can give me a very good reason why I could not expect to develop skills in martial arts as I have in those other disciplines I would seriously consider changing my mind.  But, I also want to mention that I do have a background in Tae Kwon Do and wrestling - I'm not starting from scratch.


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## marvelous65

What's 'razing'? and shadow sparring can be done anywhere basically BUT you cannot teach yourself martial arts, you can teach yourself to play at it but you won't have correct stances, techniques nor any skill you will just be mimicking movements and badly at that. I'm sorry it's harsh but as Mephisto says, it's something you can't learn by yourself no matter how good you think videos are, you will end up injuring yourself or someone else

Hey thanks for the response to my question.  To answer your question of what razing is it is a pressure point fighting methodology which Sammy Franco has two instructional videos on (Widow Maker and Feral Fighting.)  It is essentially the dirtiest way to fight that I can find and is so malicious that  it should not be used in anything but self-defense against a criminal attack.  It involves eye racks and gauges and is meant to be implemented at close quarter contact range.


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## Andrew Green

You can't... it doesn't even make sense to think you can.  You might be able to learn some things, but it's not a single person activity, you need training partners to do much  beyond what is really just martial arts related conditioning work.  You get no sense of strategy, can't work defence at all, no sense of timing, rhythm, you can't see how different opponents react when you do certain things.

You might have fun, you might get a work out, but martial arts is not a solo-activity, it requires an opponent / training partner to learn anything of use.


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## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> What's 'razing'? and shadow sparring can be done anywhere basically BUT you cannot teach yourself martial arts, you can teach yourself to play at it but you won't have correct stances, techniques nor any skill you will just be mimicking movements and badly at that. I'm sorry it's harsh but as Mephisto says, it's something you can't learn by yourself no matter how good you think videos are, you will end up injuring yourself or someone else
> 
> Hey thanks for the response to my question.  To answer your question of what razing is it is a pressure point fighting methodology which Sammy Franco has two instructional videos on (Widow Maker and Feral Fighting.)  It is essentially the dirtiest way to fight that I can find and is so malicious that  it should not be used in anything but self-defense against a criminal attack.  It involves eye racks and gauges and is meant to be implemented at close quarter contact range.





I'm sorry but really you cannot learn fighting or martial arts from videos especially ones called that! I wouldn't believe the hype about 'the dirtiest fighting eva' either. Are they calling pressure point work 'razing'? It's nonsense I'm afraid and even if it weren't you definitely need an instructor to teach you pressure point work.


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Raising knee strikes.




No it seems not....


marvelous65 said:


> razing is it is a pressure point fighting methodology which Sammy Franco has two instructional videos on (Widow Maker and Feral Fighting.) It is essentially the dirtiest way to fight that I can find and is so malicious that it should not be used in anything but self-defense against a criminal attack. It involves eye racks and gauges and is meant to be implemented at close quarter contact range.


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## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Not possible. It's a bad idea, go get proper instruction. This topic has come up here before. Martial arts is not quilting, or running, you need instruction. I've met a few self taught martial artists, I was not impressed and they all overestimated their ability. Is there a reason you can't get proper instruction? I'd like to fly airplanes, even just small ones, I don't want to be a fighter pilot or anything. But something tells me I should get proper instructions.
> 
> Regarding your question as to why I choose not to get proper instruction I am attempting to be self-taught as part of a larger educational project for learning how to learn.  This is for a column I'm writing on self-education for an online magazine.  Also, while I recognize the shortcomings of being self-taught, I believe, with diligent practice, I can develop decent skills.  I am self-taught chess and can play in tournaments; and I'm mostly self-taught writing and have been published in internationally circulated newspapers.  So why not martial arts?  If you can give me a very good reason why I could not expect to develop skills in martial arts as I have in those other disciplines I would seriously consider changing my mind.  But, I also want to mention that I do have a background in Tae Kwon Do and wrestling - I'm not starting from scratch.


Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual.  Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.  

Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical.  That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills.  Otherwise you are just winging it.

If you learn chess from a book, you don't risk blowing your knee out during practice if you misunderstand a technique.  And if you submit a piece of writing for publication you don't risk getting severely beaten or killed if your writing is junk.

Your background inTKD and wrestling may be an asset or may be a liability in this endeavor.  It really depends on a lot of things.  And if you intend to write about the experience, it is already clouded by that previous background.  Any claim of success would be credited to that previous background and not to the self-teaching process.

You came here asking for advice from those who are experienced and knowledgeable on the topic.  We are giving you our best advice.  I suggest you heed that advice even if it's not what you wanted to hear.  Otherwise, go thru with the process and then write an honest assessment, including all of the failures inherent in the very concept.  But then again, how would you even know?


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## marvelous65

You can't... it doesn't even make sense to think you can.  You might be able to learn some things, but it's not a single person activity, you need training partners to do much  beyond what is really just martial arts related conditioning work.  You get no sense of strategy, can't work defence at all, no sense of timing, rhythm, you can't see how different opponents react when you do certain things.

You might have fun, you might get a work out, but martial arts is not a solo-activity, it requires an opponent / training partner to learn anything of use.

Ok.  So my question isn't whether or not I can learn martial arts solo.  I'd very much like to pick up a training/study partner to wrestle and spar with.  I do want to avoid getting instruction at a dojo, however.  That is all.


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## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual.  Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.
> 
> Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical.  That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills.  Otherwise you are just winging it.
> 
> If you learn chess from a book, you don't risk blowing your knee out during practice if you misunderstand a technique.  And if you submit a piece of writing for publication you don't risk getting severely beaten or killed if your writing is junk.
> 
> Your background inTKD and wrestling may be an asset or may be a liability in this endeavor.  It really depends on a lot of things.  And if you intend to write about the experience, it is already clouded by that previous background.  Any claim of success would be credited to that previous background and not to the self-teaching process.
> 
> You came here asking for advice from those who are experienced and knowledgeable on the topic.  We are giving you our best advice.  I suggest you heed that advice even if it's not what you wanted to hear.  Otherwise, go thru with the process and then write an honest assessment, including all of the failures inherent in the very concept.  But then again, how would you even know?


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## marvelous65

Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual.  Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video. 

Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical.  That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills.  Otherwise you are just winging it.

If you learn chess from a book, you don't risk blowing your knee out during practice if you misunderstand a technique.  And if you submit a piece of writing for publication you don't risk getting severely beaten or killed if your writing is junk.

Your background inTKD and wrestling may be an asset or may be a liability in this endeavor.  It really depends on a lot of things.  And if you intend to write about the experience, it is already clouded by that previous background.  Any claim of success would be credited to that previous background and not to the self-teaching process.

You came here asking for advice from those who are experienced and knowledgeable on the topic.  We are giving you our best advice.  I suggest you heed that advice even if it's not what you wanted to hear.  Otherwise, go thru with the process and then write an honest assessment, including all of the failures inherent in the very concept.  But then again, how would you even know?

Here's the thing.  You wouldn't tell someone that their fighting prowess would not develop from say doing 50 push-ups everyday.  Ok.  So my point in studying martial arts should be taken in a similar context.  I'm not attempting to be highly skilled.  I can already hold my own in a back yard brawl.  So why wouldn't training on a BoB and doing regular wrestling with a friend in a park be somewhat beneficial.  My question wasn't whether being self-taught was a good idea; my question was if any of you knew how to study martial arts independently. It seems none of you do.


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## oftheherd1

marvelous65 said:


> What's 'razing'? and shadow sparring can be done anywhere basically BUT you cannot teach yourself martial arts, you can teach yourself to play at it but you won't have correct stances, techniques nor any skill you will just be mimicking movements and badly at that. I'm sorry it's harsh but as Mephisto says, it's something you can't learn by yourself no matter how good you think videos are, you will end up injuring yourself or someone else
> 
> Hey thanks for the response to my question.  To answer your question of what razing is it is a pressure point fighting methodology which Sammy Franco has two instructional videos on (Widow Maker and Feral Fighting.)  It is essentially the dirtiest way to fight that I can find and is so malicious that  it should not be used in anything but self-defense against a criminal attack.  It involves eye racks and gauges and is meant to be implemented at close quarter contact range.



In your post #6, you give us an explanation of why you wish to self teach yourself martial arts.  May I suggest you need to self teach yourself for at least three years.  Then go as many tournaments as you can survive, to see if it really worked.  Getting into tournaments should seem the exact proper thing to do since you already have tested yourself in chess and writing (I have to believe you got/get a lot of rejections slips on your way to success?).  If you want to save bruises, at the end of the three years, go to a TKD school and inform the instructor you are ready to test for BB, encouraging him to let you by promising to pay twice the testing fee in advance.  See how that works out.

The above is a little facetious, but not much.  If you throw a punch, how will you know your wrist is straight, both vertically and horizontally?  At what point will you learn how it "feels" when your wrist is straight?  Do you know what can happen if you throw and connect with a powerful punch and your wrist isn't straight?  At what point in self teaching yourself will you learn how to move successfully into a punch, moving to the side and grabbing it to successfully twist it, or will you just walk into the first punch thrown at you?  your examples of learning chess and writing just simply don't apply to learning fighting of any kind, especially martial arts.  Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but you did ask.  None of us are trying to put you down personally, but simply to answer your question in a meaningful way.  But don't your think it ironic that you ask your question and three belted MA give you the same answer, which you, with no apparent belting simply don't accept?

One last thing, razing?  I haven't heard that term either (again, belted MA don't seem to know it).  It must be a term invented by the Sammy Franco you mention.  Nor is it unique to him.  Other martial arts, including the Hapkido I am belted in, use gouges and pressure points including lethal point strikes, sudden neck twists, taking a knife away and slicing your opponent long and deep, etc.  And what other type of attack would there be than criminal, unless you are in a tourney/sparring match?


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## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> You wouldn't tell someone that their fighting prowess would not develop from say doing 50 push-ups everyday.



I would, why wouldn't I? They'd be good at press ups but there's nothing there to teach them how to fight or to get better, they'd just get a bit fitter and a bit stronger which is no use if they can't fight anyway.


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## Instructor

Look I teach people at home.  I've been instructing for two decades.  These people are highly motivated and they have a training partner that they work with several hours a week.  Even with me (a real live teacher), a dedicated training partner, and tons of learning resources that we provide.  It is still a very hard slog for them.  I tell people all the time, find yourself a good local teacher, it's easier.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> No it seems not....



Fair enough.


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## oftheherd1

marvelous65 said:


> ...
> It seems none of you do.



I think that is pretty accurate, just not in the way you intend it.  We aren't trying to give you a hard time, just trying to be honest.  Remember, you are the one who asked, and you should not be too dismissive of the answers.  If you disagree, perhaps it would be beneficial for you to ask more pertinent and specific questions


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## tshadowchaser

But if you insist on thinking you can learn without instruction watch your you tube and read your books and then when your ready I'll give you the names of some bars and maybe even people where you can go in Keene or a few towns near you to see if you have learned anything of value.  No these are not nice people but they will happily show you that book and video learning alone is not the way to go just for their own entertainment.


Take the advice of those who have spend years studying and have seen many who tried to learn from books. Find something else to write your paper about because to know if your training works you are going to have to test it sometime otherwise all your self practice is just theory


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## marvelous65

oftheherd1 said:


> In your post #6, you give us an explanation of why you wish to self teach yourself martial arts.  May I suggest you need to self teach yourself for at least three years.  Then go as many tournaments as you can survive, to see if it really worked.  Getting into tournaments should seem the exact proper thing to do since you already have tested yourself in chess and writing (I have to believe you got/get a lot of rejections slips on your way to success?).  If you want to save bruises, at the end of the three years, go to a TKD school and inform the instructor you are ready to test for BB, encouraging him to let you by promising to pay twice the testing fee in advance.  See how that works out.
> 
> The above is a little facetious, but not much.  If you throw a punch, how will you know your wrist is straight, both vertically and horizontally?  At what point will you learn how it "feels" when your wrist is straight?  Do you know what can happen if you throw and connect with a powerful punch and your wrist isn't straight?  At what point in self teaching yourself will you learn how to move successfully into a punch, moving to the side and grabbing it to successfully twist it, or will you just walk into the first punch thrown at you?  your examples of learning chess and writing just simply don't apply to learning fighting of any kind, especially martial arts.  Sorry if that isn't what you want to hear, but you did ask.  None of us are trying to put you down personally, but simply to answer your question in a meaningful way.  But don't your think it ironic that you ask your question and three belted MA give you the same answer, which you, with no apparent belting simply don't accept?
> 
> One last thing, razing?  I haven't heard that term either (again, belted MA don't seem to know it).  It must be a term invented by the Sammy Franco you mention.  Nor is it unique to him.  Other martial arts, including the Hapkido I am belted in, use gouges and pressure points including lethal point strikes, sudden neck twists, taking a knife away and slicing your opponent long and deep, etc.  And what other type of attack would there be than criminal, unless you are in a tourney/sparring match?



I fully recognize that getting instruction would benefit my study of martial arts.  And before I go further I want to thank you for your response to my query.  You said that I should train for three years independently and then go for a black belt - fine.  What I want you to understand is that I have no need for a black belt.  I don't care about having such skill in fighting.  There is no use for such skill in fighting outside of the dojo or inner city.  Where I live it is likely that I could never have to square off with anyone ever in my life.  All I want is to go about training in a slightly more intelligent manner than just pounding away at a heavy bag or doing lots of bench presses.  So please, all of you, dispense with this gobbledygook about how I'll never learn the proper stances or what have you.  

What I've found in learning to play chess and in learning to write is that I've developed a bit of expertise in skill acquisition.  Now, I am writing a column on self-education for which I pull from my experiences learning chess and writing.  Improving at martial arts is only - and I repeat - only to learn better how to learn.  I'll never be a black belt.  I will not ever have the skill to compete in a tournament.  That is fine.  What all of you seem to be misunderstanding is that I already am fine with my current ability to defend myself.  Learning martial arts is just a intellectual detour.

Maybe all of you who are so molded by your martial arts schooling should attempt to learn a skill or two independently.  For one, you would be able to apply good sound principles of discipline from you martial arts to whatever skill you chose to develop.  But furthermore, I think in the long run your study of martial discipline would also gain in the process.  Thanks.


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## tshadowchaser

as has been said how will you know if what you do is correct or if you are actually learning without anyone to tell you


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## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual.  Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.
> 
> Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical.  That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills.  Otherwise you are just winging it.
> 
> If you learn chess from a book, you don't risk blowing your knee out during practice if you misunderstand a technique.  And if you submit a piece of writing for publication you don't risk getting severely beaten or killed if your writing is junk.
> 
> Your background inTKD and wrestling may be an asset or may be a liability in this endeavor.  It really depends on a lot of things.  And if you intend to write about the experience, it is already clouded by that previous background.  Any claim of success would be credited to that previous background and not to the self-teaching process.
> 
> You came here asking for advice from those who are experienced and knowledgeable on the topic.  We are giving you our best advice.  I suggest you heed that advice even if it's not what you wanted to hear.  Otherwise, go thru with the process and then write an honest assessment, including all of the failures inherent in the very concept.  But then again, how would you even know?
> 
> Here's the thing.  You wouldn't tell someone that their fighting prowess would not develop from say doing 50 push-ups everyday.


Yes, I would.  Doing the push-ups will make you stronger, but how helpful that would will be for your actual martial skills is unknown.  Raw strength can be helpful and useful, but doesn't automatically assume it will improve your martial skill.


> Ok.  So my point in studying martial arts should be taken in a similar context.  I'm not attempting to be highly skilled.  I can already hold my own in a back yard brawl.  So why wouldn't training on a BoB and doing regular wrestling with a friend in a park be somewhat beneficial.  My question wasn't whether being self-taught was a good idea; my question was if any of you knew how to study martial arts independently. It seems none of you do.


Doing what you propose might improve your capabilities in some way, but it's not training martial arts.  When I was a kid, my friends and I would wrestle in the back yard.  We didn't have instruction or training, we just wrestled.  Is that kind of experience useful?  Potentially yes, possibly no.  But either way it's not training martial arts.  Now, when you try to introduce instruction via video only, you change the whole picture.  Now you are trying to train in martial arts, and that mode of instruction is junk.

And to your final comment in this post, plenty of us know how to train independently.  We practice outside of class, we work on our skills, we take ownership of our training and development.  But we do so in conjunction with proper instruction.


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## Flying Crane

When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?


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## tshadowchaser

You can do punching drills, kicking drills, blocking drills, etc. but that is not learning a martial art in and of itself. Martial arts and the practice of the arts includes the passing on of knowledge and the correction of mistakes and without instruction these things are not going to happen.
May I ask what are you writing this col um for: a newspaper, a college class, etc? What do you intend to put in this paper and how do you plan to back up your findings?


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## marvelous65

When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?  

The column I write is a weekly column and can be found at vermontviews.org under column heading 4our.  The theme for this magazine is quality of life.  I believe independent study to be uniquely important to quality of life; and martial arts uniquely a mystery within areas of study.  I've been studying a lot of educational philosophy and cognitive psychology for the purposes of writing this column with this frequency.  But I thought developing skill in something as esoteric as martial arts for background work to my writings would give my essays substance.  I may write an essay that directly relates to learning martial arts, but I may not.  We'll see.


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## Andrew Green

marvelous65 said:


> Now, I am writing a column on self-education for which I pull from my experiences learning chess and writing.  Improving at martial arts is only - and I repeat - only to learn better how to learn.



You're missing the point though.  Martial Arts is not a solo activity.  Writing is, Chess can be.  You can play against a computer, or against real people online.

Try learning how to play chess when all you have is the white pieces, not just lacking a live player to play against. But your board only has the white pieces.  Just you, your board, the white pieces and some books.  You can't really learn the game that way, and you can't learn martial arts without another person.

If you want to learn a skill on your own go for it, self-teaching is a great way to gain skills.  But there are some things that it just doesn't work in.  Martial Arts is one of those things, you need a opponent, otherwise its just cardio-kickboxing.


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## Jenna

marvelous65 said:


> When you write your article, will you come back and give us a link to it, so we can make comments on it?
> 
> The column I write is a weekly column and can be found at vermontviews.org under column heading 4our.  The theme for this magazine is quality of life.  I believe independent study to be uniquely important to quality of life; and martial arts uniquely a mystery within areas of study.  I've been studying a lot of educational philosophy and cognitive psychology for the purposes of writing this column with this frequency.  But I thought developing skill in something as esoteric as martial arts for background work to my writings would give my essays substance.  I may write an essay that directly relates to learning martial arts, but I may not.  We'll see.


Please do not feel put upon! I think what people here are doing in their way is trying indirectly to prevent you from injury.. If you are an autodidact in chess and you get beat by an opponent schooled by Kasparov, it is no loss to you besides pride.. poker then you lose cash.. any thing physical though then you must expect injury.. you teach your self free running or climbing then you stand to lose your mobility or even your life.. it is exactly similar for martial arts.. it is YOUR SAFETY that is at risk I would speak on nobodys behalf and but I imagine respondees here would try to prevent you from a kind of internet / literature martial naivety is all  Good luck, Jx


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## marvelous65

Andrew Green said:


> You're missing the point though.  Martial Arts is not a solo activity.  Writing is, Chess can be.  You can play against a computer, or against real people online.
> 
> Try learning how to play chess when all you have is the white pieces, not just lacking a live player to play against. But your board only has the white pieces.  Just you, your board, the white pieces and some books.  You can't really learn the game that way, and you can't learn martial arts without another person.
> 
> If you want to learn a skill on your own go for it, self-teaching is a great way to gain skills.  But there are some things that it just doesn't work in.  Martial Arts is one of those things, you need a opponent, otherwise its just cardio-kickboxing.



I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it.  I do not intend on learning solo.  I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner.  I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo.  And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE.  Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo.  If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo.  All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise.  Period.


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## Instructor

You won't be acquiring skill though, that's our point.  You will be acquiring nonsense for no reason whatsoever.  It's your time to waste though so, whatever.


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## marvelous65

Jenna said:


> Please do not feel put upon! I think what people here are doing in their way is trying indirectly to prevent you from injury.. If you are an autodidact in chess and you get beat by an opponent schooled by Kasparov, it is no loss to you besides pride.. poker then you lose cash.. any thing physical though then you must expect injury.. you teach your self free running or climbing then you stand to lose your mobility or even your life.. it is exactly similar for martial arts.. it is YOUR SAFETY that is at risk I would speak on nobodys behalf and but I imagine respondees here would try to prevent you from a kind of internet / literature martial naivety is all  Good luck, Jx



I'm never going to have to get in a real fight.  I don't go out to bars and I live in a safe rural town.  That is all. All of you are attempting to deter me from being a self-taught martial artist and I want to thank you for this.  It may not be effective to learn on your own; it might not result in the quality of learning that you'd get from an instructor - I get this.  All I want is to acquiesce an experiment of training in the martial arts into a more sound intellectual practice.  Maybe I'm misguided.  I don't care.  Maybe I'll never learn how to defend myself properly.  That is not necessary.  A little bit of exercise training on my BoB and some rough housing with some friends will carry with it all the rewards I need.  So thanks to everyone for their concern regarding my intention to teach myself martial arts but NO THANKS.


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## marvelous65

Instructor said:


> You won't be acquiring skill though, that's our point.  You will be acquiring nonsense for no reason whatsoever.  It's your time to waste though so, whatever.



Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes.  And yes I am developing this skill everyday.  So I guess you don't know what your talking about.


----------



## marvelous65

By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you.  I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.


----------



## Instructor

marvelous65 said:


> Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes.  And yes I am developing this skill everyday.  So I guess you don't know what your talking about.


 
The cumulative experience of the people that have taken time out of their day to respond to you is staggering.  They are what you might call, subject matter experts.


----------



## K-man

I think there are a couple of issues. 

Firstly, with any learning method (self or otherwise) there has to be a method of assessment to verify the teaching process. You said you didn't want a belt and you said you didn't want to compete in a tournament. These are two methods of validating your training. You say you live in a safe environment and don't need self defence skills, with which I disagree totally as SD skills are totally separate to learning a martial art. You say you are learning 'razing' and that's cool. You can't even test that on your partner, in a sense. So the question becomes, how do you know that what you are learning has validity?

So let's go to the next step and say that with you limited background you start learning from the DVDs. What you are essentially doing is trying to replicate movement as without a partner there is nothing else. You can't do that on a Bob and you can't do that on a bag. Most martial arts involve grappling. You sense your opponent's movement and respond accordingly. The movement required to unbalance someone is ever so subtle. Unless someone shows you you won't know it's there, without a partner you won't learn it.

Now we have threads running into pages debating whether or not you need 'fighting' in your training. We all have a different interpretation of fighting but what we mostly agree on is that you need some way of testing your training. You can't do that against an untrained person unless you want to try street fighting, and that may not have a happy ending.

I think you have an interesting concept. Back in the 60s I bought a book, "Teach yourself Karate". I studied it diligently for a while but eventually gave it away. Martial art, like sex, is not a solo occupation.


----------



## marvelous65

K-man said:


> I think there are a couple of issues.
> 
> Firstly, with any learning method (self or otherwise) there has to be a method of assessment to verify the teaching process. You said you didn't want a belt and you said you didn't want to compete in a tournament. These are two methods of validating your training. You say you live in a safe environment and don't need self defence skills, with which I disagree totally as SD skills are totally separate to learning a martial art. You say you are learning 'razing' and that's cool. You can't even test that on your partner, in a sense. So the question becomes, how do you know that what you are learning has validity?
> 
> So let's go to the next step and say that with you limited background you start learning from the DVDs. What you are essentially doing is trying to replicate movement as without a partner there is nothing else. You can't do that on a Bob and you can't do that on a bag. Most martial arts involve grappling. You sense your opponent's movement and respond accordingly. The movement required to unbalance someone is ever so subtle. Unless someone shows you you won't know it's there, without a partner you won't learn it.
> 
> Now we have threads running into pages debating whether or not you need 'fighting' in your training. We all have a different interpretation of fighting but what we mostly agree on is that you need some way of testing your training. You can't do that against an untrained person unless you want to try street fighting, and that may not have a happy ending.
> 
> I think you have an interesting concept. Back in the 60s I bought a book, "Teach yourself Karate". I studied it diligently for a while but eventually gave it away. Martial art, like sex, is not a solo occupation.



I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant.  Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap.  In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.


----------



## Andrew Green

marvelous65 said:


> I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant.  Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap.  In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.



I want you to just consider that everyone in this thread has told you this is a bad idea.  Add partners in and it could go from bad to worse if someone gets injured because you don't know what you are doing.  There are several instructors and people with far more experience then you saying this.  I have, and I am sure many others here have, seen the results of self training... it's usually a disaster that did the person more harm then good.

Now I'm all for self-learning, but take into consideration you are attempting to begin this self-learning experience in a field you know nothing about by ignoring and disagreeing with the advice of every expert you have heard from.  That alone should be enough to tell you something about this plan in this field is not a good one.


----------



## K-man

marvelous65 said:


> I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant.  Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap.  In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.


Sorry to have wasted your time. Bye!


----------



## Instructor

K-man said:


> Sorry to have wasted your time. Bye!


  I think it is time for me to say good bye as well.


----------



## oftheherd1

marvelous65 said:


> I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it.  I do not intend on learning solo.  *I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner.*  I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo.  And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE.  Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo.  If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo.  All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise.  Period.



Do you think that might be like the blind leading the blind?



marvelous65 said:


> I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it. I do not intend on learning solo. I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner. I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo. And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE. *Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself.* If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo. If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo. All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is *improving my skill acquisition expertise. Period.*



Perhaps I understand a little better (or not).  But you don't need martial arts training for that.  Any difficult subject should do quite well for you.  May I suggest learning Koine Greek?

But I am curious how you see learning at this point in your life.  From my point of view and small learning, all life learns.  Sometimes the learning is passed on as instinct, sometimes the learning must be done again by each new organism of a particular type.  I think even the discernment that one needs to learn is probably passed on, but it may be instinctual as well.  Granted there are skills one can acquire to improve one's ability to learn; such as concentration, memorization, the understanding that there is a void in one's knowledge, discernment of nuances of a subject matter, motor skills, and probably more.

But I wonder if you are really trying to learn how to learn, o\r simply trying to gain knowledge?



marvelous65 said:


> Is maintaining your balance when you perform a side kick requiring of skill. Yes. And yes I am developing this skill everyday. So I guess you don't know what your talking about.



That is very rude, to talk to a teacher like that.  He does know what he is talking about.  You should apologize.

But the point you are missing is that while you may learn more about how to keep your balance while doing other movements, I do not think you will learn how to do a kick correctly,



marvelous65 said:


> By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you. I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.



Sadly, I think you will have more and more if you attempt to learn this way.  And as you are responding now, I think you will get diminishing returns.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> I've stated this already in this thread but obviously you didn't catch it.  I do not intend on learning solo.  I will seek out having a sparring/wrestling partner.  I do not, however, see the need to get instruction from at a dojo.  And because you're probably going to come at me with a bunch of crap about how much I need to get feedback from someone who knows martial arts to learn to fight properly, let me say, I DON'T CARE.  Learning independently is for the sake of learning how to learn itself. If I wanted to be a black belt I'd go to a dojo.  If I really thought I needed to be able to defend myself better I would go to a dojo.  All I'm doing in attempting to independently train in the martial arts is improving my skill acquisition expertise.  Period.


Then pick a different topic.

Keep in mind: you came here and asked us about this.  We did not go chasing you down to tell you this.  Since you asked, we have given you enough respect to give you honest answers.  But since they are not the answers you were wanting now you get upset and frustrated with us.  You need to back up a little bit and respect the information that people here have been willing to share with you, or you will get zero respect here.

Sounds to me like you've already made your own decision, so what more do you want here?  You will not convince us that there is any sense to this.  Do you want to continue trying?


----------



## oftheherd1

marvelous65 said:


> ...
> *Maybe all of you who are so molded by your martial arts schooling should attempt to learn a skill or two independently.*  For one, you would be able to apply good sound principles of discipline from you martial arts to whatever skill you chose to develop.  But furthermore, I think in the long run your study of martial discipline would also gain in the process.  Thanks.



Why do you assume any of us have not?  Do you know any of us that well, or at all outside of our comments here?  Do think maybe you have a little too high an opinion of yourself, and way too low an opinion of us?


----------



## Jenna

marvelous65 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project.  I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community.  So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes.  Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag.  With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont).  I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes.  So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?


I think in fairness you asked a simple question.. how do you continue to develop a solo training method.. In light of your responses I think the best way would be just exactly as you have done up until now.. for the purposes you state you want to learn (messing about with friends in a completely safe non-violent zero crime quiet part of the world) I think you are doing fine, no?  What is missing do you think in your practice as it is?  what is wrong with it just as you are doing it right now? Jx


----------



## marvelous65

Andrew Green said:


> I want you to just consider that everyone in this thread has told you this is a bad idea.  Add partners in and it could go from bad to worse if someone gets injured because you don't know what you are doing.  There are several instructors and people with far more experience then you saying this.  I have, and I am sure many others here have, seen the results of self training... it's usually a disaster that did the person more harm then good.
> 
> Now I'm all for self-learning, but take into consideration you are attempting to begin this self-learning experience in a field you know nothing about by ignoring and disagreeing with the advice of every expert you have heard from.  That alone should be enough to tell you something about this plan in this field is not a good one.



There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.


Jenna said:


> I think in fairness you asked a simple question.. how do you continue to develop a solo training method.. In light of your responses I think the best way would be just exactly as you have done up until now.. for the purposes you state you want to learn (messing about with friends in a completely safe non-violent zero crime quiet part of the world) I think you are doing fine, no?  What is missing do you think in your practice as it is?  what is wrong with it just as you are doing it right now? Jx



Ok Jenna,  your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one.  There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training.  Having expert guidance is a piece  that is missing.  I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics.  But I did not get that.  But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice.  Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.  

I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey.  With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously.  Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months. 

I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.
> 
> 
> Ok Jenna,  your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one.  There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training.  Having expert guidance is a piece  that is missing.  I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics.  But I did not get that.  But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice.  Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.
> 
> I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey.  With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously.  Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months.
> 
> I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.


And you will not discover it without a good teacher.  

At best, you will be practicing "martial arts inspired movement as exercise" and that is definitely not the same thing.  We are trying to help you understand that.


----------



## marvelous65

Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?


----------



## marvelous65

marvelous65 said:


> Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?


----------



## Jenna

marvelous65 said:


> There is no way a little rough housing with friends is going to result in injury.
> 
> 
> Ok Jenna,  your question of what is missing in my practice is a good one.  There are myriad things missing in my practice; as all of you have said, I would benefit greatly from having an expert guide me in my training.  Having expert guidance is a piece  that is missing.  I posted this thread thinking some of you might recommend various training tactics.  But I did not get that.  But beyond being a very unschooled martial artist with only an abstract sense of how I want to formulate an understanding of martial arts training I am not sure what is missing from my practice.  Which is why I posted the thread in the first place.
> 
> I'm viewing this process of teaching myself martial arts as a journey.  With each step I take into refining my training, I'll be able to peer a little deeper - unlocking hidden potential that I was unaware of previously.  Right now, I'm just delving into practicing on my BoB; that practice in itself has improved remarkably in the past couple months.
> 
> I guess to best answer your question the piece that is most missing from my practice is that I do not know what I don't know.


yes that is very honest.. I am no expert in self-teaching a martial art (and perhaps others here do not have this experience either? I do not know) I wonder if I were in your position, perhaps I should think of starting with questions of outcome.. I mean what do I need this MA for? where do I envisage myself USING or deploying it? What do I WANT from my MA practice (for some it is defence, others fitness, others competition, others more meditative and others I think are for impressing girls lol) anyway those kinds of if-I-could-travel-forward-in-time type questions..

Why do I suggest this approach? because these are slightly less vague and slightly more well-specified and thus answerable questions that you can either ask of others or research for your self.. from here maybe you step closer to knowing what you do not know rather than not knowing even that.. 

so I am in your position and do not know much about self teaching MA so my thoughts are all fumbling in the dark I fear! what do you think? 

as for hardening knuckles.. again that depends on what you intend to do with them!  Jx


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?


In what ways?


----------



## marvelous65

Jenna said:


> yes that is very honest.. I am no expert in self-teaching a martial art (and perhaps others here do not have this experience either? I do not know) I wonder if I were in your position, perhaps I should think of starting with questions of outcome.. I mean what do I need this MA for? where do I envisage myself USING or deploying it? What do I WANT from my MA practice (for some it is defence, others fitness, others competition, others more meditative and others I think are for impressing girls lol) anyway those kinds of if-I-could-travel-forward-in-time type questions..
> 
> Why do I suggest this approach? because these are slightly less vague and slightly more well-specified and thus answerable questions that you can either ask of others or research for your self.. from here maybe you step closer to knowing what you do not know rather than not knowing even that..
> 
> so I am in your position and do not know much about self teaching MA so my thoughts are all fumbling in the dark I fear! what do you think?
> 
> as for hardening knuckles.. again that depends on what you intend to do with them!  Jx




I believe I should say that I am exceptionally disciplined.  In fact, twice in my life people have told me that I am the most disciplined person they have ever met.  One of these times the person whom I'm referring told me this in regard to my kettle bell training, and diet.  The other time the person whom I'm referring said this in regard to my writing practice.  

Now, I read a couple quotes from the great Miyamoto.  In one, he said that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship.  And two, he said that strategy is the craft of the warrior.  

Now, besides writing I'm an avid chess player and have delved into many books on strategy, otherwise.  I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension of study for someone of my skill set and general disposition.  What I'm looking for out of martial arts is a deeper understanding of strategy; what prompted this excursion of being self-taught is my column on self-education.

As I do not feel there is any real world applicability of fighting techniques in the safe, rural town, where I live, I am simply doing this as an experiment.  Thus far, my training has developed in stride with what I would have hoped.  Thus far, I'm engaging my body with dynamic physical movements with a knowledge of something I'm very interested in - that is, strategy.

So, if I've offended people, defending my stance that I want to be self-taught martial arts, I apologize.  For now, and this may change one day, I will stick by being self-taught anyway.


----------



## Flying Crane

You want to play at martial arts in a vacuum.  It's not real, it doesn't work that way.  You are playing at movement.  You are not practicing martial arts.

You've not offended anyone by desiring to do this.  If you've made your decision, then go and do it.   You do not need our permission and we cannot stop you.

However, it is obnoxious when you come here asking for our input, and then you get upset and snippy with us when our answer isn't the one you wanted.

So go do what you want. You make your own decision and live with the consequences of that, for better or for worse.  I personally do not care one way or the other how you spend your time and energy.  But I will not sanction what you are doing.


----------



## Jenna

marvelous65 said:


> I believe I should say that I am exceptionally disciplined.  In fact, twice in my life people have told me that I am the most disciplined person they have ever met.  One of these times the person whom I'm referring told me this in regard to my kettle bell training, and diet.  The other time the person whom I'm referring said this in regard to my writing practice.
> 
> Now, I read a couple quotes from the great Miyamoto.  In one, he said that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship.  And two, he said that strategy is the craft of the warrior.
> 
> Now, besides writing I'm an avid chess player and have delved into many books on strategy, otherwise.  I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension of study for someone of my skill set and general disposition.  What I'm looking for out of martial arts is a deeper understanding of strategy; what prompted this excursion of being self-taught is my column on self-education.
> 
> As I do not feel there is any real world applicability of fighting techniques in the safe, rural town, where I live, I am simply doing this as an experiment.  Thus far, my training has developed in stride with what I would have hoped.  Thus far, I'm engaging my body with dynamic physical movements with a knowledge of something I'm very interested in - that is, strategy.
> 
> So, if I've offended people, defending my stance that I want to be self-taught martial arts, I apologize.  For now, and this may change one day, I will stick by being self-taught anyway.


Discipline yes this is requisite in any endeavour I think.. I would admit I had not ever heard of training MA purely to develop strategy especially in the absence of the appication of any fighting or defensive work? still, that is my shortcoming.. I would still ask is this not to take the martial out of martial art?  You are looking to do dynamic physical movements.. yet this could be equally applicable to gymnastics for example.. I am wondering why you have chosen a martial art path over many others in the absence of a desire to fight/defend your self?  I confess my confusion! apologies  Jxx


----------



## marvelous65

Jenna said:


> Discipline yes this is requisite in any endeavour I think.. I would admit I had not ever heard of training MA purely to develop strategy especially in the absence of the appication of any fighting or defensive work? still, that is my shortcoming.. I would still ask is this not to take the martial out of martial art?  You are looking to do dynamic physical movements.. yet this could be equally applicable to gymnastics for example.. I am wondering why you have chosen a martial art path over many others in the absence of a desire to fight/defend your self?  I confess my confusion! apologies  Jxx



Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles.  That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles.  That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.


How so?


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> How so?



Is this meant to be a rhetorical question where I post a response then you re-post a witty repartee?


----------



## Mephisto

In high school me and my friends would wrestle and spar, I read a few books and pulled of some of the moves from the books while rough housing with my friends. Some of the guys watched WWF style professional wrestling and would use those moves. You can probably learn some tricks training with a friend, and if you're sparring with contact you'll likely learn how to handle getting punched. Of course, it depends on who you train with. I've known guys that have attempted similar situations and the "sparring" was pretty one sided, leading one to believe he was actually learning something. Pounding on your friends is not the same as learning a martial art. 

You might have been told you are disciplined twice in your life. I've heard the same from out of shape people who spend their free time watching TV and eating. Who was telling you this? An athlete? A physician? 

There is a member of the Dog Brothers "Lonely Dog", the Dog Bros is a Filipino Martial arts group out of California. Lonely Dog is a member from Europe and if I recall correctly he was self taught from Dog Brothers videos. I'm told that upon his first meeting with the Dog Bros group, they were surprised to learn that he was self trained. I'm not sure how they assessed this. However, that doesn't say much about his actual ability, if anything it says he may have been on par with a poorly performing trained person. However, Lonely Dog is the exception to the rule, he's an athletic beast, and I don't know about his previous training. Keep in mind even he eventually sought proper instruction and has continued his training and formed a group that he now instructs. If you want advice on being self taught, look him up, please do share how it goes with us.



marvelous65 said:


> Do you guys believe in hardening your fists?


Yes, it can be done. I wouldn't recommend you do it without proper instruction.


marvelous65 said:


> Studying martial arts improves understanding of combat principles.  That is why martial arts instead of gymnastics.


Only if you know what the hell you're doing. Don't get to caught up in Musashi and Sun Tzu and start thinking you're a strategic genius. Plenty of bad martial artists have read those books too and they still can't fight. Those books are common in the martial arts community. There are plenty of martial arts books worms who have lots of knowledge but still lack ability. Martial arts culture can be interesting, but just remember all the cool kids in the community can fight.


----------



## WaterGal

I'm going to give you a less critical (and it turned out much longer! ) answer than some others here.  I think you might be able to develop some basic competency at some martial arts techniques by practicing at home with a partner, _if _you watch the right videos and reading reputable books and _if _you work hard and are dedicated about practicing.  But I think, even with hard work, your results are going to depend a lot on both the quality of resources available and the kind of thing you're trying to learn, and are still going to be limited if you don't have access to feedback from an instructor.

For an example, you say you have some TKD experience.  If you want to further that, Kukkiwon has a ~$150 DVD set showing all the WTF/KKW forms in painstakingly thorough detail, and I think if you have some experience, you may be able to teach yourself the forms adequately by watching the video, following along, and then filming yourself and comparing yourself to the person in the video.  (Edit: But if you're just imitating movements, you may miss things that are important but don't seem to be, misinterpret what the movement is supposed to be, etc.) I've also seen some decent tutorial videos on youtube from a user called, let's see, "Learn Taekwondo Online", and I think you could probably learn at least the concept of many strikes from watching these kind of videos.  Make sure they're good videos though, not ones with corny titles like "Feral Fight".  

But when it comes to sparring, you can't _possibly _learn that solo, or even with one training partner.  You'll get in a rut. You need to spar with a bunch of different people to improve your skill, and especially with people who're more skilled than you and can help/push you to improve.

And then, when it comes to more subtle grappling techniques... I think you're up the creek there.  Even in a class setting, those often require one-on-one instruction to really get right.  An inch down the arm or turning your foot a certain way can be the difference between a joint lock working great, sort-of, or not at all.  And it's easy, without good instruction, to do "sort-of" and think it's "great" - or to (even unconciously) modify the technique in some way that misses the point.

I also am going to second (third, fourth, whatever) others that have posted about the injury risk of teaching yourself because you're not doing things right.  You can mess up your knees doing rotary kicks improperly (not pivoting), give yourself a boxer's fracture not punching right, not to mention spraining your wrist or throwing out your back trying to do some Hapkido/Jujutsu/Aikido kind of techniques.  So you have to be careful.

If I were you, I'd focus on getting generally fit, since that's always going to help you, and on drilling basic striking and blocking techniques with BOB and a partner. If you want to learn forms to do a TMA, try it like how I mentioned above.


----------



## marvelous65

Mephisto said:


> In high school me and my friends would wrestle and spar, I read a few books and pulled of some of the moves from the books while rough housing with my friends. Some of the guys watched WWF style professional wrestling and would use those moves. You can probably learn some tricks training with a friend, and if you're sparring with contact you'll likely learn how to handle getting punched. Of course, it depends on who you train with. I've known guys that have attempted similar situations and the "sparring" was pretty one sided, leading one to believe he was actually learning something. Pounding on your friends is not the same as learning a martial art.
> 
> You might have been told you are disciplined twice in your life. I've heard the same from out of shape people who spend their free time watching TV and eating. Who was telling you this? An athlete? A physician?
> 
> There is a member of the Dog Brothers "Lonely Dog", the Dog Bros is a Filipino Martial arts group out of California. Lonely Dog is a member from Europe and if I recall correctly he was self taught from Dog Brothers videos. I'm told that upon his first meeting with the Dog Bros group, they were surprised to learn that he was self trained. I'm not sure how they assessed this. However, that doesn't say much about his actual ability, if anything it says he may have been on par with a poorly performing trained person. However, Lonely Dog is the exception to the rule, he's an athletic beast, and I don't know about his previous training. Keep in mind even he eventually sought proper instruction and has continued his training and formed a group that he now instructs. If you want advice on being self taught, look him up, please do share how it goes with us.
> 
> 
> Yes, it can be done. I wouldn't recommend you do it without proper instruction.
> 
> Only if you know what the hell you're doing. Don't get to caught up in Musashi and Sun Tzu and start thinking you're a strategic genius. Plenty of bad martial artists have read those books too and they still can't fight. Those books are common in the martial arts community. There are plenty of martial arts books worms who have lots of knowledge but still lack ability. Martial arts culture can be interesting, but just remember all the cool kids in the community can fight.




Hey Mephisto, thanks for the tip on looking up Lonely Dog - I will do that.  As for your question regarding my discipline - yes, two people have told me that I was the most disciplined person they had ever met.  One was a fellow writer who has won prestigious writing competitions and the other was a mentor.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Is this meant to be a rhetorical question where I post a response then you re-post a witty repartee?


No, it's an honest question.  I am curious to know what combat principles you believe you will learn by working on a bob and wrestling with a friend in the back yard.  What are these principles, and how do feel this exercise will help you understand them. 

I am poking holes in your arguments, but quite honestly that is what you need right now.  It's not a simple attempt to be witty at your expense.

Give me an argument that isn't fraught with glaring problems, and I won't be able to poke holes in it.


----------



## hoshin1600

Hello Marvelous65.
I hope you have the patience for one more response because mine may be different.
Your interest is in self learning.  Everyone has given their opinions but let me give my input on this. Chess is a logical endeavor and is learned in an intellectual process. As westerners we primarily use the left hemisphere of our brains when learning. This is the logical side. Asian cultures however historically have been more intuitive learner's and use the right side.  My first suggestion would be for you to do some research on left VS right brain learning.
I think what many people are trying to express to you subconsciously is that martial arts are not learned as an intellectual process. They are learned as an intuitive almost like osmosis. In the fist stages of martial arts it is about memory but then after that it becomes intuitive.  I would also suggest looking up on line the learning process used by Asian musicians. It will be similar to martial arts.  
One challenge to learning from any other method other than a teacher is that martial arts is about the human body and biomechanics.  Even doing something as simple as a punch involves more than just extending your arm. There are 640 skeletal muscles in the body. Some of these muscles have to remain in a state of relaxation while others need to be contracted and yet others need to be held in a state of static flexation. There is no book or video that could possibly entail so many details. Martial arts takes a simple movement and breaks it down to a very fine prescribed manner.  It is really about mastery of the human body.  The only way to learn this is by feel and by extensive instruction.


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> No, it's an honest question.  I am curious to know what combat principles you believe you will learn by working on a bob and wrestling with a friend in the back yard.  What are these principles, and how do feel this exercise will help you understand them.
> 
> I am poking holes in your arguments, but quite honestly that is what you need right now.  It's not a simple attempt to be witty at your expense.
> 
> Give me an argument that isn't fraught with glaring problems, and I won't be able to poke holes in it.



Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat.  It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea.  I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat.  I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert.  And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.


----------



## marvelous65

hoshin1600 said:


> Hello Marvelous65.
> I hope you have the patience for one more response because mine may be different.
> Your interest is in self learning.  Everyone has given their opinions but let me give my input on this. Chess is a logical endeavor and is learned in an intellectual process. As westerners we primarily use the left hemisphere of our brains when learning. This is the logical side. Asian cultures however historically have been more intuitive learner's and use the right side.  My first suggestion would be for you to do some research on left VS right brain learning.
> I think what many people are trying to express to you subconsciously is that martial arts are not learned as an intellectual process. They are learned as an intuitive almost like osmosis. In the fist stages of martial arts it is about memory but then after that it becomes intuitive.  I would also suggest looking up on line the learning process used by Asian musicians. It will be similar to martial arts.
> One challenge to learning from any other method other than a teacher is that martial arts is about the human body and biomechanics.  Even doing something as simple as a punch involves more than just extending your arm. There are 640 skeletal muscles in the body. Some of these muscles have to remain in a state of relaxation while others need to be contracted and yet others need to be held in a state of static flexation. There is no book or video that could possibly entail so many details. Martial arts takes a simple movement and breaks it down to a very fine prescribed manner.  It is really about mastery of the human body.  The only way to learn this is by feel and by extensive instruction.



You people don't seem to understand.  There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not.  I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy.  I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult.  And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons.  Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized.  If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt.  On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.


----------



## Andrew Green

marvelous65 said:


> You people don't seem to understand.



How to self teach:

Step 1 - Ask experts for their professional opinion.
Step 2 - Ignore their opinion, tell them they are wrong.
Step 3 - ???
Step 4 - Profit

That seems to be what you are going with...  You got a lot of experience here giving you advice, and you are ignoring all of it because you know better.  If you can't see how that might be a bad idea you're not going to get far.

You can learn to hit a bag, on your own, play around with friends.  But make no mistake, you are not doing martial arts.  Have fun, and hopefully you get a good work out at least.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat.  It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea.  I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat.  I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert.  And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.


Do you have a sense of what those principles might be?  At best I think you might experiment on a technical level, but principles are something else.  And you won't really grasp that stuff without good instruction.  It just won't happen.  Even with instruction, most people have a lot of difficulty and never really "get" it.  Everyone thinks they know how to throw a punch.  Most people  don't do it well, at all.

You made a comment in an earlier post, that you don't know what it is that you don't know.  That is something you ought to embrace whole heartedly.  You won't get this by yourself.  You will simply be copying movement, with minimal benefit, it any at all.


----------



## marvelous65

Andrew Green said:


> How to self teach:
> 
> Step 1 - Ask experts for their professional opinion.
> Step 2 - Ignore their opinion, tell them they are wrong.
> Step 3 - ???
> Step 4 - Profit
> 
> That seems to be what you are going with...  You got a lot of experience here giving you advice, and you are ignoring all of it because you know better.  If you can't see how that might be a bad idea you're not going to get far.
> 
> You can learn to hit a bag, on your own, play around with friends.  But make no mistake, you are not doing martial arts.  Have fun, and hopefully you get a good work out at least.



Hey, a good work out indeed.  Thanks.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> You people don't seem to understand.  There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not.  I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy.  I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult.  And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons.  Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized.  If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt.  On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.


Then why are you here, asking for input?  We have given what you have asked.  And you are frustrated and angry.  Why are you here?


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> Do you have a sense of what those principles might be?  At best I think you might experiment on a technical level, but principles are something else.  And you won't really grasp that stuff without good instruction.  It just won't happen.  Even with instruction, most people have a lot of difficulty and never really "get" it.  Everyone thinks they know how to throw a punch.  Most people  don't do it well, at all.
> 
> You made a comment in an earlier post, that you don't know what it is that you don't know.  That is something you ought to embrace whole heartedly.  You won't get this by yourself.  You will simply be copying movement, with minimal benefit, it any at all.



This debate got very deep into whether or not it was a good idea to be self-taught martial arts.  You guys don't think so.  I get that.  What I asked for originally was some advice on how to train without formal instruction - not whether it was a good idea.  Now, I totally get the idea of having instruction as being vital; I worked with a writing mentor for a while and I would not have made it nearly as far as a writer had I not; but I'm not attempting excellence in the fighting arts.  What I want is to cultivate a practice which includes martial arts training that is not for martial arts as an end.  Between my writing practice which is what is most important to my discipline, and my job, and my love for the game of chess I only have so much time for martial arts training.  Not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on classes that will not make me better unless I put in a lot of work.


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> Then why are you here, asking for input?  We have given what you have asked.  And you are frustrated and angry.  Why are you here?



I'm not angry I'm invigorated by good debate.


----------



## hoshin1600

Here's something that interests me.  How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy.  As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great.  I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> This debate got very deep into whether or not it was a good idea to be self-taught martial arts.  You guys don't think so.  I get that.  What I asked for originally was some advice on how to train without formal instruction - not whether it was a good idea.  Now, I totally get the idea of having instruction as being vital; I worked with a writing mentor for a while and I would not have made it nearly as far as a writer had I not; but I'm not attempting excellence in the fighting arts.  What I want is to cultivate a practice which includes martial arts training that is not for martial arts as an end.  Between my writing practice which is what is most important to my discipline, and my job, and my love for the game of chess I only have so much time for martial arts training.  Not enough to spend hundreds of dollars on classes that will not make me better unless I put in a lot of work.


So... You don't really have any sense of what these principles may be?  Just some vague notion that practicing martial-inspired mimicry will somehow improve your chess and your writing because of something you read in Musashi's book?  Is that really what it boils down to?


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> I'm not angry I'm invigorated by good debate.


All I see is someone who is angry and frustrated because he is not getting the answer he wanted.


----------



## Flying Crane

hoshin1600 said:


> Here's something that interests me.  How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy.  As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great.  I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.


Yeah, I've been trying to get to the bottom of that little chestnut too.


----------



## marvelous65

hoshin1600 said:


> Here's something that interests me.  How do you see your training having anything to do with strategy.  As a back round note I have read just about every well known published work on strategy from sun tzu and all 7 Chinese classics to Vegetius and Du Pic to Clausewits and Fredrick the great.  I've read Musashi and Takuan ...the list is extensive but I cannot understand the link your trying to make punching a Bob to strategy.



Ok...so I think you may be confusing strategy with tactics.  Because strategy is how you prepare for and enter into a fight or other sort of conflict.  A tactic is the means with which you fight or resolve the conflict.  Training is strategy for being more equipped to handle yourself in combat; that is the essence of military science; but you must already know that because you read Clauswits.


----------



## marvelous65

Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing


----------



## jks9199

marvelous65 said:


> I'm never going to have to get in a real fight.  I don't go out to bars and I live in a safe rural town.  That is all. All of you are attempting to deter me from being a self-taught martial artist and I want to thank you for this.  It may not be effective to learn on your own; it might not result in the quality of learning that you'd get from an instructor - I get this.  All I want is to acquiesce an experiment of training in the martial arts into a more sound intellectual practice.  Maybe I'm misguided.  I don't care.  Maybe I'll never learn how to defend myself properly.  That is not necessary.  A little bit of exercise training on my BoB and some rough housing with some friends will carry with it all the rewards I need.  So thanks to everyone for their concern regarding my intention to teach myself martial arts but NO THANKS.


Perhaps you need to understand that many of us have spent many, many hours on martial arts training and practice.  They've given you serious, honest advice based on your original question, "how do I teach myself martial arts" or "how do I develop solo practice as an 'educational experiment'?"  And your response has been, essentially, that you don't care to hear them, and you're going to do what you want anyway.  

Totally your right to do so.

As has been said -- teaching yourself chess from a book is quite doable.  You can easily study many of the greatest games by the greatest masters once you learn the notation.  You can walk through the games, work on seeing how they thought and what led them to make the moves they did.  Becoming a published writer?  Honestly, as many published authors have openly admitted, that's as much luck as skill or talent.  There are lots of things you can certainly teach yourself. 

And you can certainly mess around and do something, especially with a little background.  But what you can actually teach yourself in that regard is limited.  And, to really achieve much, you'll have to commit to a lot of painful errors, unless you simply want to do martial arts-like movements as interpreted and inspired by your reading and videos.

Go for it.  Have fun.  But don't look to a bunch of serious martial artists for much support.


----------



## hoshin1600

I am not confused. I was asking a sincere question based on your posts. You said your training consisted at the moment of 25 min of Bob work. I am interested in how you feel your training has an impact on your interest in strategy.


----------



## marvelous65

hoshin1600 said:


> I am not confused. I was asking a sincere question based on your posts. You said your training consisted at the moment of 25 min of Bob work. I am interested in how you feel your training has an impact on your interest in strategy.



Training is relevant to fighting arts.  Fighting arts incorporate strategy.  Therefore having an understanding of one will enhance study of the other.  It's called cross pollinating and is a "tactic" of many autodidacts.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing


That was stupid as a box of rocks.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Training is relevant to fighting arts.  Fighting arts incorporate strategy.  Therefore having an understanding of one will enhance study of the other.  It's called cross pollinating and is a "tactic" of many autodidacts.


You do realize that this is...silly?  How does beating on a bob, without instruction, teach you any kind of strategy?  You don't absorb any deeper knowledge by just making something up out of whole cloth.


----------



## marvelous65

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps you need to understand that many of us have spent many, many hours on martial arts training and practice.  They've given you serious, honest advice based on your original question, "how do I teach myself martial arts" or "how do I develop solo practice as an 'educational experiment'?"  And your response has been, essentially, that you don't care to hear them, and you're going to do what you want anyway.
> 
> Totally your right to do so.
> 
> As has been said -- teaching yourself chess from a book is quite doable.  You can easily study many of the greatest games by the greatest masters once you learn the notation.  You can walk through the games, work on seeing how they thought and what led them to make the moves they did.  Becoming a published writer?  Honestly, as many published authors have openly admitted, that's as much luck as skill or talent.  There are lots of things you can certainly teach yourself.
> 
> And you can certainly mess around and do something, especially with a little background.  But what you can actually teach yourself in that regard is limited.  And, to really achieve much, you'll have to commit to a lot of painful errors, unless you simply want to do martial arts-like movements as interpreted and inspired by your reading and videos.
> 
> Go for it.  Have fun.  But don't look to a bunch of serious martial artists for much support.




You say my response to all your comments has been that I don't want to hear them.  I believe that is a contradiction from what has happened here today.  I've rooted out considered debate throughout the day; I have considered many responses and responded to them consistently - almost every time leading to more debate.  So I will not likely run out to follow anyone's directions but few of you have really stopped to consider how might a person teach themselves martial arts as a supplement to a already disciplined intellectual practice.


----------



## jks9199

marvelous65 said:


> Ok...well I should have a decent chance at learning principles of hand to hand combat.  It seems very simple to say so but really that's the idea.  I want to develop a rudimentary understanding of the principles of hand to hand combat.  I believe that I can do this without much instruction from a martial arts expert.  And I believe that by developing this learning, without instruction, I'll also understand more deeply the process of skill acquisition.


In what context?  Hand-to-hand fighting for a police officer?  A soldier?  A private citizen protecting themselves from a criminal attack?  A bar fight?  Fighting in a MMA match or boxing ring?

It's not so simple a thing, huh?

You want to know what people have done for "solo training" in the past?  Look at the kata or forms in various martial arts.  One sort of form was developed as a way to study and practice the fighting principles of a martial system.

You say you're trying to learn about "skill acquisition."  That's a broad field -- have you even looked into the psychology of learning?   You can certainly develop some skill in movement, but in isolation, it's kind of like trying to learn to play a musical instrument as part of a band without actually playing with anyone else.  Or learning to play football by running pass patterns or practicing blocking schemes all by yourself.  There are nuances and elements that you simply aren't likely to find without the direct input of an experienced instructor.  And, if you do, it'll be at the expense of pain and wasted time on trial and error.

Here's another analogy, for what it's worth.  It's certainly possible to travel across the Atlantic by first improvising a float by grabbing a log, then deciding to hollow it out into some sort of dugout canoe, and so on until you've built yourself an oceangoing liner.  Or by doing experiments with kites, then building a powered plane looking at the Wright brothers's work, then a larger plane, and again through the stages to an SST.  Don't you have better things to do with your time, since you can book passage on an existing liner or airplane, and get there in a matter of hours or weeks?  What do you hope or expect to gain by your experiment with solo skill development that you couldn't gain by working with an instructor?


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> You do realize that this is...silly?  How does beating on a bob, without instruction, teach you any kind of strategy?  You don't absorb any deeper knowledge by just making something up out of whole cloth.[/QUO
> 
> How do you think getting lessons in martial arts will teach you anything that will be of relevant use outside of a dojo or in unlikely self-defense situations?
> 
> It is obvious that lessons will be learned in studying martial arts (with instruction) that are applicable to things that do not involve fighting.  Just as obvious is that (but not to you or your martial arts cohorts) learning rudimentary hand to hand combat skills will be relevant to studies which overlap with hand to hand combat.


----------



## Flying Crane

And it just gets sillier.


----------



## hoshin1600

Maybe part of the frustration in this conversation is the perception of what martial arts is.  my wife can drive a car. At what point of driving does one become a race car driver? My brother can do little jobs around the house and is quite handy. At what point of being handy does he become a licensed plumber or carpenter?   A piece of wood is not a baseball bat.  My brother can throw a good punch but it is not the same punch that I would throw. Even if I showed him how I do it he would still not be a martial artist.
You can punch your Bob, watch ufc and read all the books. It doesn't make you a martial artist and your not doing martial arts. At best you are a street fighter. Semantics maybe but I believe this is the heart of the debate.  Serious practioners view what you are attempting as nothing more than a photo copy. A street fighter. Many of us use quil and ink painstakingly training for years to earn the right and privilege to call ourselves true masters of the arts. A copy doesn't grind the ink or know the feel of the pen. How the ink flows on the paper. A copy is only an empty shell.  You will be nothing more than a street fighter.


----------



## ShotoNoob

Flying Crane said:


> Those other skills you mention, chess and writing, are largely intellectual.  Yes, that kind of thing can be learned thru good resources such as books and video.
> 
> Martial arts are intellectual, but ultimately need to translate into physical.  That's the difference, and that's where you need instruction to make sure you get the details correct, and you need classmates to work with, under knowledgeable supervision, to develope real workable skills.  Otherwise you are just winging it....


|
I agree there's something critical about human interaction.  Yet, I got a set of TKD videos from an instructor endorsed by Chuck Norris.  They really help in going over concepts with having to maintain the pace of an organized class where the instructor calls the shots...


----------



## marvelous65

hoshin1600 said:


> Maybe part of the frustration in this conversation is the perception of what martial arts is.  my wife can drive a car. At what point of driving does one become a race car driver? My brother can do little jobs around the house and is quite handy. At what point of being handy does he become a licensed plumber or carpenter?   A piece of wood is not a baseball bat.  My brother can throw a good punch but it is not the same punch that I would throw. Even if I showed him how I do it he would still not be a martial artist.
> You can punch your Bob, watch ufc and read all the books. It doesn't make you a martial artist and your not doing martial arts. At best you are a street fighter. Semantics maybe but I believe this is the heart of the debate.  Serious practioners view what you are attempting as nothing more than a photo copy. A street fighter. Many of us use quil and ink painstakingly training for years to earn the right and privilege to call ourselves true masters of the arts. A copy doesn't grind the ink or know the feel of the pen. How the ink flows on the paper. A copy is only an empty shell.  You will be nothing more than a street fighter.


Good!


----------



## Mephisto

marvelous65 said:


> You people don't seem to understand.  There is no need to know how all 640 stupid muscles in the human body work unless you are attempting to compete at a level in martial arts that I am not.  I'm just passively interested in the fighting arts as they relate to strategy.  I think that by working out on a BoB for 25 minutes almost everyday, I'm doing a hell of a lot better to serve the purposes I am attempting than I would most any other activity that strikes my interest. I've taken martial arts classes as an adult.  And I feel that in the last two months of training, I've learned more which will directly effect my skills in hand to hand combat than I did taking lessons.  Often, I find, martial arts lessons are too systematized.  If you are attempting to attain high levels of expertise in a fighting art this systemic process will aid your attempt.  On the other hand, if your just trying to be slightly better equipped in hand to hand combat a punching bag and a little rough housing should suffice.


You may be right in some cases.


marvelous65 said:


> Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing


In my opinion this is crap. It's bad. If at some point In your journey you want to engage in some friendly soarring, I'd be happy to oblige. Not meaning this as a threat, just a genuine offer, I'm surprised no one else has presented it yet. I'm I central FL near the theme parks so I don't expect anything to happen but I'm certainly willing to train or spar if you're ever around.


----------



## marvelous65

There are principles to skill acquisition which I will briefly explain.  One is to break down a skill into sub skills; so for fighting arts you'd want to learn sub skills like parries, kicks, footwork, and so on.  My training thus far has been for developing sub skills.  But the other principle which I will divulge here is that you have to set a target skill level and then develop a plan to attain that skill level.  Before this lengthy debate with all of you I was wishy washy about what skill level I felt I should attain.  In journaling this morning I figured out an objective relevant to my skill level that I will achieve in studying martial arts - I will find an independent teacher.  Yes, I know this whole thing was about being self-taught but independent learning does not exclude learning from independent teachers as much as it does indoctrinating yourself into a school.  So for all of you who stuck around to see how this conversation would end up - thanks.


----------



## Jenna

marvelous65 said:


> I'm not angry I'm invigorated by good debate.


..I wonder are you just messing with us?? is good though!  Jx


----------



## Mephisto

marvelous65 said:


> There are principles to skill acquisition which I will briefly explain.  One is to break down a skill into sub skills; so for fighting arts you'd want to learn sub skills like parries, kicks, footwork, and so on.  My training thus far has been for developing sub skills.  But the other principle which I will divulge here is that you have to set a target skill level and then develop a plan to attain that skill level.  Before this lengthy debate with all of you I was wishy washy about what skill level I felt I should attain.  In journaling this morning I figured out an objective relevant to my skill level that I will achieve in studying martial arts - I will find an independent teacher.  Yes, I know this whole thing was about being self-taught but independent learning does not exclude learning from independent teachers as much as it does indoctrinating yourself into a school.  So for all of you who stuck around to see how this conversation would end up - thanks.


That's great! Keep in mind a lot of learning done in martial arts is done training alone, so in some respects you must be "self taught" to understand a movement. It seems the guys I work with that train at home or at the gym alone outside of class are much better than those who only train in class.

Not sure what style you're thinking of training but I'll throw out a recommendation for the Filipino Martial Arts. Collectively known as Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali these arts are still gaining popularity and many groups train out of garages, parks, and other schools. The small group learning format is great for learning and there's less "indoctrination" and often a more open minded learning approach.


----------



## marvelous65

Mephisto said:


> That's great! Keep in mind a lot of learning done in martial arts is done training alone, so in some respects you must be "self taught" to understand a movement. It seems the guys I work with that train at home or at the gym alone outside of class are much better than those who only train in class.
> 
> Not sure what style you're thinking of training but I'll throw out a recommendation for the Filipino Martial Arts. Collectively known as Arnis, Eskrima, and Kali these arts are still gaining popularity and many groups train out of garages, parks, and other schools. The small group learning format is great for learning and there's less "indoctrination" and often a more open minded learning approach.




I have a friend who teaches and studies various martial arts where I live.  I'm thinking I'm going to attempt to pick him up as an informal mentor.


----------



## Gnarlie

There are aspects of any form of exacting physical activity that are very difficult to learn even with an instructor to explain the principles and exaggerate them for your observation. Self-learning supports learning with an instructor but can not replace it. Learning WITH an instructor is hard enough. 

Here's a favourite quote relating to Taekwondo, seeing as you have a background there maybe it will speak to you:

"In time, the truncal twist will be spontaneous in all actions, will become shortened in execution time, and will be almost imperceptible to an observer. This is the reason why it is so difficult for students to learn the movement from their instructors unless it is purposely exaggerated to allow observation. Certain points need elaboration." - GM Kim Bok Man on basic principles, in "Taekwondo: Defense Against Weapons".

As the trunk twist is a key principle for Taekwondo power generation, and learning alone would not lead you to it, you would just be waving your arms and legs around unless you covered it with an instructor.


----------



## donald1

I dont know your friend,  you may actually learn a thing or two. The reason why I think an instructor would be a preferred choice  a good instructor will have the experience, knows what their doing, and the students are less likely to get hurt


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## Transk53

donald1 said:


> I dont know your friend,  you may actually learn a thing or two. The reason why I think an instructor would be a preferred choice  a good instructor will have the experience, knows what their doing, and the students are less likely to get hurt



And thankfully in my experience there are a hell of good instructors with sound advice. Some of my theory regarding things, have been shot down straight away. And for the good!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Flying Crane said:


> And you will not discover it without a good teacher.
> 
> At best, you will be practicing "martial arts inspired movement as exercise" and that is definitely not the same thing.  We are trying to help you understand that.



Absolutely!



Jenna said:


> ..I wonder are you just messing with us?? is good though!  Jx



Yes, I think this is the case.


*Anyways, in response to the OP* without instruction and based on what you have said you are not practicing the martial way you are playing at practicing it.  You do not really want to put in the real effort it requires and learn from someone experienced enough to teach you.  Instead, because you have acquired a non-physical skill somewhere else you wish to try and "do it yourself".  Throughout the years I have met some people who "taught themselves".  Invariably, and putting this bluntly their efforts were pathetic.  I can remember one self trained guy who came into my training hall specifically and kind've wanted to test himself.  So he tried out some classes and quickly it was apparent that he had ingrained incredibly bad habits.  Eventually we did some relaxed grappling and my guy's played with him.  They could do anything they wanted at any time.  He eventually left in frustration and worse probably ruined himself from ever actually learning anything of value in the martial sciences.

jks9199 mentioned above that if you want to do this "go for it" have fun, knock yourself out.  Just do not expect serious martial practitioner's to approve or expect you to achieve anything.  However, if you at some point want to learn and become a martial practitioner then please seek out someone qualified!  Realize you probably do not know anything and approach training with a true willingness to learn!

Good luck......


----------



## marvelous65

I still don't intend on being dedicated to the martial arts; I'll get pointers here and there from the friend I mentioned as I have already said.  But about twenty to twenty five minutes a day on my BoB will suffice for what I'm looking to get out of my training.  Maybe I won't be a martial artist by the standards of those who have previously posted on this thread.  Maybe I won't be one of the cool kids of the martial arts who can really fight.  Regardless of if my efforts at training result in anything that all of you would regard as martial arts I thank you for helping me to understand that I need coaching.  What is important about our debate isn't that I learn proper techniques for fighting, however.  It is that I have stepped outside the bounds of what I thought was a practical way in which to approach the martial arts.


----------



## Transk53

marvelous65 said:


> I still don't intend on being dedicated to the martial arts; I'll get pointers here and there from the friend I mentioned as I have already said.  But about twenty to twenty five minutes a day on my BoB will suffice for what I'm looking to get out of my training.  Maybe I won't be a martial artist by the standards of those who have previously posted on this thread.  Maybe I won't be one of the cool kids of the martial arts who can really fight.  Regardless of if my efforts at training result in anything that all of you would regard as martial arts I thank you for helping me to understand that I need coaching.  What is important about our debate isn't that I learn proper techniques for fighting, however.  It is that I have stepped outside the bounds of what I thought was a practical way in which to approach the martial arts.



Take it from me, it don't work. You have to have that inner feeling that something ain't quite right, that is the person on the periphery. You have to go further, otherwise you may throw that elbow and crack your elbow. Someone from a TKD background must surely know that. Brings me to believe that such a venture as yours is just plain pointless. We have a saying on the door - "15 minute heroes" Not that I am implying anything, just suspicious of the blog intends!


----------



## Buka

I guess the best way to learn alone would be to figure out what kind of learner you are. If you're primarily a visual learner, (and have wrestling and tae-kwon-do experience) youtube could serve you well.

You mentioned about the 640 muscles in the body. I think if you gained an understanding of their function (fairly easy research) it might help you in your quest as well.

Whichever way you go at it - have fun. Martial Arts should be fun.


----------



## Chris Parker

marvelous65 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project.  I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community.  So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes.  Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag.  With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont).  I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes.  So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?



Hmm. 

Look, I kinda want to go through the entire thread here, but honestly, it'd take too long... so I'm just going to hit the major points... starting with what I feel is the biggest issue present.

You really don't seem to get what martial arts are.

I'll elaborate... 

There is no one thing called "martial arts". There is no one skill set that is central, or universal to all martial arts. In fact, your attempt to focus on techniques is really, when all's said and done, not really anything to do with actually learning a martial art. The reality is that techniques are really nothing more than the particular expression of what a martial art really is... which leads us directly to what exactly a martial art is.

A martial art is a particular approach to certain combative questions and contexts. As such, you can't learn "martial arts"... you learn a particular martial art. And, of course, that means that you can't learn a specific methodology by making stuff up and randomly hitting a BOB. It's like saying that you're intending to see how you go self-teaching yourself a language by sitting in a room making sounds, with no thought to grammar, syntax, etymology, spelling, writing, or anything else related.

You've mentioned a few things... principles, tactics, strategies... but haven't really given any mention to anything specific. Different arts have different principles, often contradictory with other systems... same goes with tactics. So how can you know what principles or tactics you should be addressing or employing in your attempt to learn "martial arts"? I mean... the tactic of "control the fight to the ground, and employ submissions to gain success" is not exactly compatible with the tactic of "remain standing and attack from a distance before escaping". Both are quite valid, but neither really suits the other... and both lead to very different martial arts.

However, to address your reasoning, namely that you feel that this endeavour is not too dissimilar to other pursuits you've attempted, and that you're somehow better positioned to have success, despite you're complete lack of understanding of what you're even attempting, then let me just say this:  You're not special. You're not different. You're attributes, no matter what you may believe, aren't that unique, or even applicable to this. It really doesn't matter how "disciplined" you feel you are... as, frankly, that has nothing to do with anything here. The ability to teach yourself chess is honestly similarly meaningless, and the idea of you being a writer is quite besides the point (and, I might say, has simply added to your perception of yourself as being special in some way... judging purely on your posts here, I'd be hesitant to blow that particular horn).

You asked for a reason that you can't do it... well, honestly, the main reason is that you don't seem to understand what you're attempting to do. It's like you're asking about teaching yourself maths... then ignoring any questions about whether you're wanting to learn algebra, trigonometry, geometry, calculus, or what... saying that you don't even want anyone to teach you how to write numbers, as you can figure them out by yourself.



marvelous65 said:


> By the way, I've thoroughly enjoyed this banter with all of you.  I will, in the future, attempt to come up with many more misguided ideas about the martial arts to bounce off you guys.



Oh, and I'd recommend against such passive aggressive tones... they can easily be interpreted as trolling... which is a quick path out the door... friendly heads up there.


----------



## WaterGal

marvelous65 said:


> Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing



So just some basic head/neck/face strikes and a bit of silly stuff?  I honestly was kinda hoping it really would be some EPIC BRUTAL things worthy of the title.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> Oh by the way guys - here's a look at razing




What a load of bollocks! 'Widow Maker' my eye. I've seen kids classes do better than that and they were considerably more scary. I think the clue is in the theatrics 'starring...'


----------



## marvelous65

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm.
> 
> Look, I kinda want to go through the entire thread here, but honestly, it'd take too long... so I'm just going to hit the major points... starting with what I feel is the biggest issue present.
> 
> You really don't seem to get what martial arts are.
> 
> I'll elaborate...
> 
> There is no one thing called "martial arts". There is no one skill set that is central, or universal to all martial arts. In fact, your attempt to focus on techniques is really, when all's said and done, not really anything to do with actually learning a martial art. The reality is that techniques are really nothing more than the particular expression of what a martial art really is... which leads us directly to what exactly a martial art is.
> 
> A martial art is a particular approach to certain combative questions and contexts. As such, you can't learn "martial arts"... you learn a particular martial art. And, of course, that means that you can't learn a specific methodology by making stuff up and randomly hitting a BOB. It's like saying that you're intending to see how you go self-teaching yourself a language by sitting in a room making sounds, with no thought to grammar, syntax, etymology, spelling, writing, or anything else related.
> 
> You've mentioned a few things... principles, tactics, strategies... but haven't really given any mention to anything specific. Different arts have different principles, often contradictory with other systems... same goes with tactics. So how can you know what principles or tactics you should be addressing or employing in your attempt to learn "martial arts"? I mean... the tactic of "control the fight to the ground, and employ submissions to gain success" is not exactly compatible with the tactic of "remain standing and attack from a distance before escaping". Both are quite valid, but neither really suits the other... and both lead to very different martial arts.
> 
> However, to address your reasoning, namely that you feel that this endeavour is not too dissimilar to other pursuits you've attempted, and that you're somehow better positioned to have success, despite you're complete lack of understanding of what you're even attempting, then let me just say this:  You're not special. You're not different. You're attributes, no matter what you may believe, aren't that unique, or even applicable to this. It really doesn't matter how "disciplined" you feel you are... as, frankly, that has nothing to do with anything here. The ability to teach yourself chess is honestly similarly meaningless, and the idea of you being a writer is quite besides the point (and, I might say, has simply added to your perception of yourself as being special in some way... judging purely on your posts here, I'd be hesitant to blow that particular horn).
> 
> You asked for a reason that you can't do it... well, honestly, the main reason is that you don't seem to understand what you're attempting to do. It's like you're asking about teaching yourself maths... then ignoring any questions about whether you're wanting to learn algebra, trigonometry, geometry, calculus, or what... saying that you don't even want anyone to teach you how to write numbers, as you can figure them out by yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and I'd recommend against such passive aggressive tones... they can easily be interpreted as trolling... which is a quick path out the door... friendly heads up there.



Unfortunately your recommendation to learn a martial art and the strategies and tactics that go with that martial arts system is not what I am looking for.  I work for a living and devote the rest of my time to reading, writing, and playing chess.  What I wanted was some guidance to incorporate some basic hand to hand combat principles into my modest amount of training.  But to most of you who responded (and you Tez3 in particular) this seems to be insulting.  This is very much to my dismay; any boxing coach could give me advice on how to train for a fight. Any chess coach could give me extensive advice on how to study the game independently. But many of you have called into question my logic in comparing chess (or writing) to martial arts as if there were no overlap in their practices.  But my bet is that you probably don't even know who Josh Waitzkin; he happened to have been a national chess champion several times in his youth; he then went on to share the title of world champion in pushing hands and very much attributed his success the study habits he picked up from learning chess.  For a little while, you all had me convinced that learning martial arts is in someway different than learning anything else.  But now I'm a little less sure.  My uncertainty lies in that there is a consensus among all of you that martial arts are unique.  And that studying "a martial art" takes greater dedication than study of any other disciplines - and that is just plain foolish. 

To those of you who encouraged me to find a teacher - thank you.  But to those who somehow missed the point that I was a beginning martial artist looking for no more than a hint at what I should do to begin a practice which would incorporate sound discipline and proper tactics, and attempted nothing more than a lashing, that's too bad.  I'm not here to stroke your egos and tell you all how great your feedback is regardless of if it is filled with dissension.  I'm realizing now that an interest in martial arts may be misguided if then I'd be associated with the likes of yourselves.  In the future I'll know that teaching myself hand to hand combat techniques and principles will not make me a martial artist. And, instead, a street fighter; that sounds rather cool.  Peace.


----------



## Danny T

Tez3 said:


> What a load of bollocks! 'Widow Maker' my eye. I've seen kids classes do better than that and they were considerably more scary. I think the clue is in the theatrics 'starring...'


Oh come now Tez, theatrics aside, Bob put up quite a stand. Didn't punch much but was standing strong even after all that 'razing'. However, the live training partner didn't do much in the way of punching or fighting back either.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> Unfortunately your recommendation to learn a martial art and the strategies and tactics that go with that martial arts system is not what I am looking for.  I work for a living and devote the rest of my time to reading, writing, and playing chess.  What I wanted was some guidance to incorporate some basic hand to hand combat principles into my modest amount of training.  But to most of you who responded (and you Tez3 in particular) this seems to be insulting.  This is very much to my dismay; any boxing coach could give me advice on how to train for a fight. Any chess coach could give me extensive advice on how to study the game independently. But many of you have called into question my logic in comparing chess (or writing) to martial arts as if there were no overlap in their practices.  But my bet is that you probably don't even know who Josh Waitzkin; he happened to have been a national chess champion several times in his youth; he then went on to share the title of world champion in pushing hands and very much attributed his success the study habits he picked up from learning chess.  For a little while, you all had me convinced that learning martial arts is in someway different than learning anything else.  But now I'm a little less sure.  My uncertainty lies in that there is a consensus among all of you that martial arts are unique.  And that studying "a martial art" takes greater dedication than study of any other disciplines - and that is just plain foolish.
> 
> To those of you who encouraged me to find a teacher - thank you.  But to those who somehow missed the point that I was a beginning martial artist looking for no more than a hint at what I should do to begin a practice which would incorporate sound discipline and proper tactics, and attempted nothing more than a lashing, that's too bad.  I'm not here to stroke your egos and tell you all how great your feedback is regardless of if it is filled with dissension.  I'm realizing now that an interest in martial arts may be misguided if then I'd be associated with the likes of yourselves.  In the future I'll know that teaching myself hand to hand combat techniques and principles will not make me a martial artist. And, instead, a street fighter; that sounds rather cool.  Peace.


This is a load of nonsense.  Good luck to you.   You'll need it.


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> This is a load of nonsense.  Good luck to you.   You'll need it.


What will I need luck for?  All I'm doing is a little training on a BoB.


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> What will I need luck for?  All I'm doing is a little training on a BoB.


Gaining any benefits from it, in the manner you envision.


----------



## marvelous65

Flying Crane said:


> Gaining any benefits from it, in the manner you envision.


No I shouldn't need luck for that either.  But on another note - I just stumbled upon a new book on razing by Sammy Franco.  Totally stoked!


----------



## Flying Crane

marvelous65 said:


> No I shouldn't need luck for that either.  But on another note - I just stumbled upon a new book on razing by Sammy Franco.  Totally stoked!


Have at it.  Good luck to you.  You'll need it.


----------



## Blindside

marvelous65 said:


> .  In the future I'll know that teaching myself hand to hand combat techniques and principles will not make me a martial artist. And, instead, a street fighter; that sounds rather cool.  Peace.


 
You won't be a "street fighter" because street fighters do something you have no interest in, which is fighting. 

I'd actually agree that you will be a martial artist, I consider anyone who studies any amount of martial arts to be a martial artist, but you will just suck at it.  My 8 year old knows how all the chess pieces on the board move, would you really suggest that a productive use of his time is to sit in his room for 25 minutes per day and think about how best to utilize those pieces with no opponent and no "play?"


----------



## marvelous65

I just want to leave this conversation with a few words of insight.  Miyamoto says that strategy is the craft of the warrior but when I asked all of you how to better understand strategy from martial arts training I got nothing. Miyamoto also says that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship.  But when I posed to all of you that I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension with in my studies, you said that writing practice has no relevance to martial arts study.  So may I suggest that all of you go out and buy The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin.  This is a book that follows Josh as he achieves greatness as a child in chess and how he applies that learning to his study of Tai Chi.  Maybe you all will broaden your understanding of martial arts study in the process.  And then in the future, when a newcomer to the martial arts poses a question with sincere hopes to learn something, you will not feel obligated to insult their intelligence with narrow minded, hollow, advice.


----------



## K-man

marvelous65 said:


> I've addressed this point in this thread again and again; I am not attempting to learn martial arts without a partner. Your point is irrelevant.  Otherwise, you say that self-defense are totally separate to learning a martial art; they may have diverging points but also overlap.  In other words, if you learn how to train in the martial arts you will improve your ability to defend yourself.


the fact that you are here after six pages, still arguing your case, suggests you have no interest in the opinions of the experienced practitioners on this forum. Your resorting to rudeness underlines the fallacy of your position.


----------



## marvelous65

Blindside said:


> You won't be a "street fighter" because street fighters do something you have no interest in, which is fighting.
> 
> I'd actually agree that you will be a martial artist, I consider anyone who studies any amount of martial arts to be a martial artist, but you will just suck at it.  My 8 year old knows how all the chess pieces on the board move, would you really suggest that a productive use of his time is to sit in his room for 25 minutes per day and think about how best to utilize those pieces with no opponent and no "play?"



Ok Blindside,  If your 8 year old wants to excel at chess he need first study the endgame.  And then study tactics and openings.  The method in chess study is in studying tactics that is practicing progressively more difficult combinations - like, say, a check mate in 2 moves.  And then working up to a check mate in 4 or 5 moves.  But the endgame comes first.  

When I asked how I might be able to teach myself martial arts I thought, maybe, there was a method to martial practice.  There is a method to chess study - but apparently not to martial arts study other than having a teacher. Furthermore, there is a method to learning how to write; that is by reading, a lot.  

Now, if you question my advice on how to study chess you may ask the master who I studied under.  Or you may read Josh Waitzkin's book.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> you Tez3 in particular)



If I had meant to insult you more than you had insulted us I would have been far more acerbic. You have been more than insulting, you have been patronising and unpleasant to some very nice people ( not, I'm not nice before you say anything) but others here are. They have given their time, which they didn't have to, to give good solid, non insulting advice to a stranger on here who has responded by belittling them, something they don't deserve.
The video you posted was a nonsense, nothing more, nothing less. I actually suspect you are playing people here which is unkind to say the least, trolling to say the worse.
By all means teach yourself how to play punch on Bob, after all he's 'armless, he doesn't hit back, it's dangerous. As for never needing to defend yourself, good luck with that one, 'be prepared' is a good, feeling smug isn't.
If you imagine yourself insulted by my plain talk then I'm sorry, well actually I'm not, you've had patient, kind advice from good people who don't have egos but an abiding love of what they do. Some of the comments you have made to them are extremely rude. That you are the one to feel insulted is interesting. I would stop seeing yourself as superior to everyone, you can't pee round corners either.


----------



## Spinedoc

marvelous65 said:


> I just want to leave this conversation with a few words of insight.  Miyamoto says that strategy is the craft of the warrior but when I asked all of you how to better understand strategy from martial arts training I got nothing. Miyamoto also says that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship.  But when I posed to all of you that I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension with in my studies, you said that writing practice has no relevance to martial arts study.  So may I suggest that all of you go out and buy The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin.  This is a book that follows Josh as he achieves greatness as a child in chess and how he applies that learning to his study of Tai Chi.  Maybe you all will broaden your understanding of martial arts study in the process.  And then in the future, when a newcomer to the martial arts poses a question with sincere hopes to learn something, you will not feel obligated to insult their intelligence with narrow minded, hollow, advice.



I think you have vastly misunderstood Musashi. First, understanding strategy from martial arts study is definitely acheivable, but to what end? What strategy? As Chris noted, it will vary considerably based on what art you study. The strategies I use in my Aikido studies are very different from the strategies I use in my Iaido studies, etc. As to the second point. I'm a published author too. I'm a researcher and editorialist and have written many pieces....it's not irrelevant, but what you are missing is the context. Musashi Sensei lived in a time when many warriors studied martial arts to the exclusion of everything else. His point has to be taken in the context in when he lived. He meant that a true warrior had to embrace not only the physical, but the mental and intellectual pursuits of his day. This cannot be extended to mean if you are a good writer that you can naturally learn martial arts without instruction, that is an error in reasoning and logic. I am very familiar with Josh Waitzkin, but you do realize he was not a "self taught" martial artist right?


----------



## Spinedoc

He studied Tai Chi under William Chen, and BJJ under John Machado....Just for clarification.


----------



## Steve

marvelous65 said:


> Ok Blindside,  If your 8 year old wants to excel at chess he need first study the endgame.  And then study tactics and openings.  The method in chess study is in studying tactics that is practicing progressively more difficult combinations - like, say, a check mate in 2 moves.  And then working up to a check mate in 4 or 5 moves.  But the endgame comes first.
> 
> When I asked how I might be able to teach myself martial arts I thought, maybe, there was a method to martial practice.  There is a method to chess study - but apparently not to martial arts study other than having a teacher. Furthermore, there is a method to learning how to write; that is by reading, a lot.
> 
> Now, if you question my advice on how to study chess you may ask the master who I studied under.  Or you may read Josh Waitzkin's book.


 Marvelous65, first, I want to say that I agree with much of what you say about learning.  However, a key distinction between learning martial arts and learning chess is the physical component of martial arts.  Learning a martial art is much more like learning a sport than it is like learning chess.  While there is a strategic/intellectual component to all of these activities, chess lacks the physicality of a sport or of a martial art. 

I think it's entirely possible for someone to learn ABOUT martial arts without a live coach. But, it would be exceedingly unlikely that a person could become competent in a martial art without a live coach.  Just as it would be exceedingly unlikely that a person could become a competent tennis player alone.  Is it possible?  I guess anything would be.  But, when people here suggest that a teacher is a critical component, they are (I think) really just trying to manage your expectations and highlight the distinction between knowing ABOUT martial arts and being able to DO martial arts.


----------



## marvelous65

Spinedoc said:


> I think you have vastly misunderstood Musashi. First, understanding strategy from martial arts study is definitely acheivable, but to what end? What strategy? As Chris noted, it will vary considerably based on what art you study. The strategies I use in my Aikido studies are very different from the strategies I use in my Iaido studies, etc. As to the second point. I'm a published author too. I'm a researcher and editorialist and have written many pieces....it's not irrelevant, but what you are missing is the context. Musashi Sensei lived in a time when many warriors studied martial arts to the exclusion of everything else. His point has to be taken in the context in when he lived. He meant that a true warrior had to embrace not only the physical, but the mental and intellectual pursuits of his day. This cannot be extended to mean if you are a good writer that you can naturally learn martial arts without instruction, that is an error in reasoning and logic. I am very familiar with Josh Waitzkin, but you do realize he was not a "self taught" martial artist right?



I'm not trying to be world champ either.  I just wanted to get a sense of training methodology which all of you failed to offer.


----------



## marvelous65

Steve said:


> Marvelous65, first, I want to say that I agree with much of what you say about learning.  However, a key distinction between learning martial arts and learning chess is the physical component of martial arts.  Learning a martial art is much more like learning a sport than it is like learning chess.  While there is a strategic/intellectual component to all of these activities, chess lacks the physicality of a sport or of a martial art.
> 
> I think it's entirely possible for someone to learn ABOUT martial arts without a live coach. But, it would be exceedingly unlikely that a person could become competent in a martial art without a live coach.  Just as it would be exceedingly unlikely that a person could become a competent tennis player alone.  Is it possible?  I guess anything would be.  But, when people here suggest that a teacher is a critical component, they are (I think) really just trying to manage your expectations and highlight the distinction between knowing ABOUT martial arts and being able to DO martial arts.



Hey Steve, thanks for your gracious words but I already conceded to getting a independent teacher.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> I'm not trying to be world champ either.  I just wanted to get a sense of training methodology which all of you failed to offer.




Interesting you assume it's our fault you will fail.


----------



## marvelous65

The only thing I


Tez3 said:


> Interesting you assume it's our fault you will fail.


Fail at what?


----------



## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> When I asked how I might be able to teach myself martial arts I thought, maybe, there was a method to martial practice.  There is a method to chess study - but apparently not to martial arts study other than having a teacher.


The thing about Martial Art is there are 1000s of martial arts and there are 100's of methodologies.
Each has its own strategies, tactics, and method. Which martial art are you wanting to teach yourself? To become good in a particular art then you will need to practice properly within that arts methods. That is why everyone said to get a competent instructor. There is more to a punch than just pushing your fist toward a target and the same with wrist strikes, forearm strikes, elbows, shoulders, hips, knees, shins, feet. Stance, weight distribution, footwork..., etc.


----------



## marvelous65

It was said early on in this debate that the amount of knowledge offered in this thread is staggering.  But I am a beginner martial artist.  And while I'll readily admit I learned not to be self-taught from all of you.  Finding a teacher is the only advice any of you had.  That's not saying much.  I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> It was said early on in this debate that the amount of knowledge offered in this thread is staggering.  But I am a beginner martial artist.  And while I'll readily admit I learned not to be self-taught from all of you.  Finding a teacher is the only advice any of you had.  That's not saying much.  I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!




Pride comes before a fall.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> The only thing I
> 
> Fail at what?




Martial arts......because you failed the first step...having an empty cup.


----------



## marvelous65

Tez3 said:


> Martial arts......because you failed the first step...having an empty cup.


If I fail at martial arts will I never be able to teach someone how to study martial arts?  And if I failed in this way how would that make me any different than you?


----------



## marvelous65

Danny T said:


> The thing about Martial Art is there are 1000s of martial arts and there are 100's of methodologies.
> Each has its own strategies, tactics, and method. Which martial art are you wanting to teach yourself? To become good in a particular art then you will need to practice properly within that arts methods. That is why everyone said to get a competent instructor. There is more to a punch than just pushing your fist toward a target and the same with wrist strikes, forearm strikes, elbows, shoulders, hips, knees, shins, feet. Stance, weight distribution, footwork..., etc.



I can practice razing against my BoB and achieve at least moderate competency in footwork from shadow boxing.  These are methods of training I already figured on before I approached all of you with my question on how to be self-taught martial arts.  Now, that I have gleamed sooooo much wisdom from the likes of yourselves, I still think that practicing razing, doing a little shadow boxing, and wrestling with friends will suffice for what I want to get out of my training.  They say that when the only tool you have is a hammer - all challenges that lay ahead will look as if being a nail.  All of you have expressed just such a soundness in addressing my inquiry.  You have suggested that I have a teacher.  But none of you were able to express anything beyond just that; unfortunately, you are all seemingly ill equipped to offer advice on martial arts.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> If I fail at martial arts will I never be able to teach someone how to study martial arts?  And if I failed in this way how would that make me any different than you?




Ah dear boy, I shall wish you luck on your journey through life because one day there will come an event that will turn everything you think you know on it's head, and that day will determine that what you think is your character, your strength of mind and your superiority is nothing more than a fiction.


----------



## marvelous65

Tez3 said:


> Ah dear boy, I shall wish you luck on your journey through life because one day there will come an event that will turn everything you think you know on it's head, and that day will determine that what you think is your character, your strength of mind and your superiority is nothing more than a fiction.


Whatever!


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> Whatever!



You're a teenager! Ah, bless. You are forgiven then, all young boys have natural arrogance, they grow up luckily.


----------



## marvelous65

Tez3 said:


> You're a teenager! Ah, bless. You are forgiven then, all young boys have natural arrogance, they grow up luckily.


I will never say you don't have a sense of humor Tez3.  What wit!


----------



## marvelous65

Spinedoc said:


> I think you have vastly misunderstood Musashi. First, understanding strategy from martial arts study is definitely acheivable, but to what end? What strategy? As Chris noted, it will vary considerably based on what art you study. The strategies I use in my Aikido studies are very different from the strategies I use in my Iaido studies, etc. As to the second point. I'm a published author too. I'm a researcher and editorialist and have written many pieces....it's not irrelevant, but what you are missing is the context. Musashi Sensei lived in a time when many warriors studied martial arts to the exclusion of everything else. His point has to be taken in the context in when he lived. He meant that a true warrior had to embrace not only the physical, but the mental and intellectual pursuits of his day. This cannot be extended to mean if you are a good writer that you can naturally learn martial arts without instruction, that is an error in reasoning and logic. I am very familiar with Josh Waitzkin, but you do realize he was not a "self taught" martial artist right?



Musashi's vastly superior skill with a sword should not deter you from applying the principles of study he purported.  Learn strategy.  Make yourself a writer.  And, yes, you could even lead life traveling the countryside, many practitioners of the other arts do.  Why is there such an emphasis among martial artists for competition? Fighting is not everything.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> I will never say you don't have a sense of humor Tez3.  What wit!



Empty your cup, sweetheart, empty your cup.


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Empty your cup, sweetheart, empty your cup.



Video please


----------



## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> I can practice razing against my BoB and achieve at least moderate competency in footwork from shadow boxing.  These are methods of training I already figured on before I approached all of you with my question on how to be self-taught martial arts.  Now, that I have gleamed sooooo much wisdom from the likes of yourselves, I still think that practicing razing, doing a little shadow boxing, and wrestling with friends will suffice for what I want to get out of my training.  They say that when the only tool you have is a hammer - all challenges that lay ahead will look as if being a nail.  All of you have expressed just such a soundness in addressing my inquiry.  You have suggested that I have a teacher.  But none of you were able to express anything beyond just that; unfortunately, you are all seemingly ill equipped to offer advice on martial arts.


Shadow boxing is an excellent way to smooth out one's movements. Now what kind of shadow boxing will you be doing? Western boxing, Muay Thai, Silat, Savate, Muay Buran, Pekiti-Tirsia... I can continue. Each of these have differing actions, movements, footwork. Now how about range drills, timing drills, tempering drills? What kind of punching, what is your delivery style and what mechanics will you be developing. Staying grounded on the heel or do you pivot on the ball of the foot lifting the heel. Or, is your center of gravity weighted forward, centered, or rearward. Do you turn on the front foot or the rear? Give some more information as to what system, style of martial art you are wanting to teach yourself?


----------



## marvelous65

Danny T said:


> Shadow boxing is an excellent way to smooth out one's movements. Now what kind of shadow boxing will you be doing? Western boxing, Muay Thai, Silat, Savate, Muay Buran, Pekiti-Tirsia... I can continue. Each of these have differing actions, movements, footwork. Now how about range drills, timing drills, tempering drills? What kind of punching, what is your delivery style and what mechanics will you be developing. Staying grounded on the heel or do you pivot on the ball of the foot lifting the heel. Or, is your center of gravity weighted forward, centered, or rearward. Do you turn on the front foot or the rear? Give some more information as to what system, style of martial art you are wanting to teach yourself?



No.  I was thinking of just crudely going about developing a little rhythm and elusiveness.  I'll more or less attempt a means of staying in shape while developing a modest amount of skill.  Thanks.


----------



## marvelous65

marvelous65 said:


> No.  I was thinking of just crudely going about developing a little rhythm and elusiveness.  I'll more or less attempt a means of staying in shape while developing a modest amount of skill.  Thanks.



In my independent study I found out that boxers get up to jumping rope for over 15 minutes at a time.  I will not bother with that either.  It just doesn't serve my purposes.  I'm only looking for moderate skill and ability; your all trying to persuade me into being a serious student of the martial arts.  It's just not going to happen.  If that was what I had in mind I would not have thought to be self-taught in the first place.  Duh!


----------



## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> It was said early on in this debate that the amount of knowledge offered in this thread is staggering.  But I am a beginner martial artist.  And while I'll readily admit I learned not to be self-taught from all of you.  Finding a teacher is the only advice any of you had.  That's not saying much.  I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!


Wish had read this prior to posting anything.
"...walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory..."
I was under the impression you were seeking information. But you were debating not discussing. For a victory you had an opinion already and were seeking conformation or were wanting to make an argument. Ok you win. You have all of your assumed knowledge; go shadow box and razing on Bob to your hearts content.


----------



## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> No.  I was thinking of just crudely going about developing a little rhythm and elusiveness.  I'll more or less attempt a means of staying in shape while developing a modest amount of skill.  Thanks.



Skipping rope is an excellent method to develop rhythm and footwork.


----------



## Blindside

marvelous65 said:


> No.  I was thinking of just crudely going about developing a little rhythm and elusiveness.  I'll more or less attempt a means of staying in shape while developing a modest amount of skill.  Thanks.


 
Billy Blanks Workout Lot 9 Volume Set Tae Bo Bootcamp New DVD eBay

The 9 volume set of TaeBo can be yours for only $30.  You might get some rhythm but it won't teach you elusiveness.


----------



## marvelous65

Danny T said:


> Wish had read this prior to posting anything.
> "...walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory..."
> I was under the impression you were seeking information. But you were debating not discussing. For a victory you had an opinion already and were seeking conformation or were wanting to make an argument. Ok you win. You have all of your assumed knowledge; go shadow box and razing on Bob to your hearts content.



It started as a


Blindside said:


> Billy Blanks Workout Lot 9 Volume Set Tae Bo Bootcamp New DVD eBay
> 
> The 9 volume set of TaeBo can be yours for only $30.  You might get some rhythm but it won't teach you elusiveness.



Thank you but I don't own a tv I find it to inhibit my writing practice.


----------



## K-man

marvelous65 said:


> In my independent study I found out that boxers get up to jumping rope for over 15 minutes at a time.  I will not bother with that either.  It just doesn't serve my purposes.  I'm only looking for moderate skill and ability; your all trying to persuade me into being a serious student of the martial arts.  It's just not going to happen.  If that was what I had in mind I would not have thought to be self-taught in the first place.  Duh!


I reckon it was said best in the first Karate Kid movie.

Miyagi: Now, ready?

Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.

Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.

[they both kneel]

Miyagi: Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later

[makes squish gesture]

Miyagi: get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. *Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so*,"

[makes squish gesture]

Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?

Daniel: Yeah, I understand.

Miyagi: Now, ready?

Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.

Either you learn a martial art or you don't. If you try to be somewhere in the middle, <squish> just like the grape!


----------



## Orange Lightning

marvelous65 said:


> I can practice razing against my BoB and achieve at least moderate competency in footwork from shadow boxing.  These are methods of training I already figured on before I approached all of you with my question on how to be self-taught martial arts.  Now, that I have gleamed sooooo much wisdom from the likes of yourselves, I still think that practicing razing, doing a little shadow boxing, and wrestling with friends will suffice for what I want to get out of my training.  They say that when the only tool you have is a hammer - all challenges that lay ahead will look as if being a nail.  All of you have expressed just such a soundness in addressing my inquiry.  You have suggested that I have a teacher.  But none of you were able to express anything beyond just that; unfortunately, you are all seemingly ill equipped to offer advice on martial arts.



I think I can give what they're saying a little context. I have experienced the pitfalls of self training myself.
The essential problem is that you have very little feedback for what you're doing. Especially if you're just starting, it's difficult to know what you might be doing wrong or how you could improve. It's almost impossible to know what is going to be effective at that point. You have no measurement of how fast or powerful or effective you are at anything because you don't have much to compare it to besides videos. Without sparring, even if you are indeed very strong and fast at what you do, it's still all just theory.
THAT SAID, you can still learn to strike. You can still learn to kick and punch harder, faster, better, etc. You will still get in better shape, and you will definitely be better than you were before. It will take a lot longer to learn everything, but purely from a technically standpoint, if you invest enough time in training and research, it can be done....for striking. 
To put it black and white, you CAN learn how to punch and kick in all different ways, learn to slip, move quickly, and grasp the technical understanding of how to defend. I don't see it being possible to learn effective grappling, or get good at defense. You can strengthen the muscles that do these jobs, but get no better at applying them.

Now....can you hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing? YES. Even experienced people hurt themselves sometimes. But when you're starting, it's really easy. Striking with the wrong part of your body is particularly easy, even if you know better. Elbowing with your funny bone instead of your elbow, hitting your pinky knuckle, etc. Problems with fist alignment and limb overextension are common too. Punching full force with bad alignment can seriously injure you.
I'm not saying this to deter you from doing it though. I would just recommend taking it slowly with anything you're new to. Learning to do a particular punch? Do some shadowboxing first. Watch some people do it on youtube. Practice on something soft first. 
I must say though, injury is a part of martial arts. It's going to happen sooner or later. Knowledge and understanding will help avoid most of them, but accidents will still happen. Most of them you will recover from, but some of them will really suck and could be debilitating. This is why I would strongly suggest researching moves and drills before implementing them. 

I would also recommend putting a higher value on drills than free form training. Free form training of any sort (heavybag, shadowboxing, etc.) can help you learn the skill and smooth you out, but getting good at a particular thing requires drilling. Free form just doesn't have a high enough resistance to improve your strength. I learned this the hard way. By drilling... I just mean make your training specialized. Work on something specific. It can even be as broad as "just kicking". 

If you don't have anything else, I would certainly recommend self training. It's definitely better than nothing. But I must stress to TAKE IT SLOWLY with new material and to understand that their are holes in your education. Take any opportunity you can to ask questions from people who have experience. With self training, it can take a really long time to realize something you're doing wrong. Feel free to experiment. Being a stickler to form in this scenario can actually get you stuck doing something wrong. Let good form be a result of good training. If you beat on a heavybag for long enough, you WILL know the difference between a punch with good form and punch with bad form. It could definitely be learned faster in a school though. Kicking is.....harder. It's more complicated. There's just a lot more than can go wrong. But the only way around this is training. 
What's you're email address? I can talk to you about whatever you might want help with.


----------



## marvelous65

K-man said:


> I reckon it was said best in the first Karate Kid movie.
> 
> Miyagi: Now, ready?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.
> 
> Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.
> 
> [they both kneel]
> 
> Miyagi: Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later
> 
> [makes squish gesture]
> 
> Miyagi: get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. *Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so*,"
> 
> [makes squish gesture]
> 
> Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
> 
> Miyagi: Now, ready?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.
> 
> Either you learn a martial art or you don't. If you try to be somewhere in the middle, <squish> just like the grape!



Ok...so here's what I'm thinking.  I'm going to stick by razing to cover having a training methodology.  And I'm going to work with an instructor who has already agreed to helping me out.  I took a fencing class with him already (see I'm not totally opposed to instruction).  Then I'm going to develop modest skills from shadow boxing and practicing kicks and knee strikes on my BoB.  I'll will then compliment this practice with kettlebell training and pull-ups.  I know I won't be a serious martial artist but I think it will compliment my intellectual pursuits well.


----------



## marvelous65

Orange Lightning said:


> I think I can give what they're saying a little context. I have experienced the pitfalls of self training myself.
> The essential problem is that you have very little feedback for what you're doing. Especially if you're just starting, it's difficult to know what you might be doing wrong or how you could improve. It's almost impossible to know what is going to be effective at that point. You have no measurement of how fast or powerful or effective you are at anything because you don't have much to compare it to besides videos. Without sparring, even if you are indeed very strong and fast at what you do, it's still all just theory.
> THAT SAID, you can still learn to strike. You can still learn to kick and punch harder, faster, better, etc. You will still get in better shape, and you will definitely be better than you were before. It will take a lot longer to learn everything, but purely from a technically standpoint, if you invest enough time in training and research, it can be done....for striking.
> To put it black and white, you CAN learn how to punch and kick in all different ways, learn to slip, move quickly, and grasp the technical understanding of how to defend. I don't see it being possible to learn effective grappling, or get good at defense. You can strengthen the muscles that do these jobs, but get no better at applying them.
> 
> Now....can you hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing? YES. Even experienced people hurt themselves sometimes. But when you're starting, it's really easy. Striking with the wrong part of your body is particularly easy, even if you know better. Elbowing with your funny bone instead of your elbow, hitting your pinky knuckle, etc. Problems with fist alignment and limb overextension are common too. Punching full force with bad alignment can seriously injure you.
> I'm not saying this to deter you from doing it though. I would just recommend taking it slowly with anything you're new to. Learning to do a particular punch? Do some shadowboxing first. Watch some people do it on youtube. Practice on something soft first.
> I must say though, injury is a part of martial arts. It's going to happen sooner or later. Knowledge and understanding will help avoid most of them, but accidents will still happen. Most of them you will recover from, but some of them will really suck and could be debilitating. This is why I would strongly suggest researching moves and drills before implementing them.
> 
> I would also recommend putting a higher value on drills than free form training. Free form training of any sort (heavybag, shadowboxing, etc.) can help you learn the skill and smooth you out, but getting good at a particular thing requires drilling. Free form just doesn't have a high enough resistance to improve your strength. I learned this the hard way. By drilling... I just mean make your training specialized. Work on something specific. It can even be as broad as "just kicking".
> 
> If you don't have anything else, I would certainly recommend self training. It's definitely better than nothing. But I must stress to TAKE IT SLOWLY with new material and to understand that their are holes in your education. Take any opportunity you can to ask questions from people who have experience. With self training, it can take a really long time to realize something you're doing wrong. Feel free to experiment. Being a stickler to form in this scenario can actually get you stuck doing something wrong. Let good form be a result of good training. If you beat on a heavybag for long enough, you WILL know the difference between a punch with good form and punch with bad form. It could definitely be learned faster in a school though. Kicking is.....harder. It's more complicated. There's just a lot more than can go wrong. But the only way around this is training.
> What's you're email address? I can talk to you about whatever you might want help with.


----------



## marvelous65

K-man said:


> I reckon it was said best in the first Karate Kid movie.
> 
> Miyagi: Now, ready?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I guess so.
> 
> Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk.
> 
> [they both kneel]
> 
> Miyagi: Walk on road, hm? Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later
> 
> [makes squish gesture]
> 
> Miyagi: get squish just like grape. Here, karate, same thing. *Either you karate do "yes" or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so*,"
> 
> [makes squish gesture]
> 
> Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
> 
> Miyagi: Now, ready?
> 
> Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.
> 
> Either you learn a martial art or you don't. If you try to be somewhere in the middle, <squish> just like the grape!



No...I can dabble in martial arts all I want and never get crushed like a grape.


----------



## marvelous65

Maybe I should just work on having a stance like that of a mountain.


----------



## Orange Lightning

marvelous65 said:


> Ok...so here's what I'm thinking.  I'm going to stick by razing to cover having a training methodology.  And I'm going to work with an instructor who has already agreed to helping me out.  I took a fencing class with him already (see I'm not totally opposed to instruction).  Then I'm going to develop modest skills from shadow boxing and practicing kicks and knee strikes on my BoB.  I'll will then compliment this practice with kettlebell training and pull-ups.  I know I won't be a serious martial artist but I think it will compliment my intellectual pursuits well.



That's fine. You definitely don't need to be a hardass or anything. Modest training will develop modest skills. 
Why just kicks and knees on the bob? 

There is one thing that is pretty important. You have to have things you can hit. Without something you can hit really hard, you won't know what it feels like to land a solid blow. It's kind of hard to explain.
When I was little and I was just starting in staff stuff, I didn't have any targets to hit hard. When I got my first heavybag (a military canvas bag filled with jeans and whatnot) I was confident I could hit it hard and well without trouble. For the most part, my quick and flashy technique didn't have any power, and got caught up whenever I was in close quarters. Many of my moves didn't work at all because the bag *stops* the staff and wouldn't all me to just push through it like I had a lightsaber.
The moral was that you need to know how to connect blows, and what that feels like, before you try getting advanced. If you don't know what it feels like to punch correctly (which you can learn from pounding on things) then you'll probably be doing a lot of bad punching with all your shadowboxing. They might feel crisp, but lack leverage or power. You don't necessarily want to be punching super hard when you're shadowboxing, but.....this is hard to explain in just text You get what I mean right?


----------



## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> Ok...so here's what I'm thinking.  I'm going to stick by razing to cover having a training methodology.  And I'm going to work with an instructor who has already agreed to helping me out.  I took a fencing class with him already (see I'm not totally opposed to instruction).  Then I'm going to develop modest skills from shadow boxing and practicing kicks and knee strikes on my BoB.  I'll will then compliment this practice with kettlebell training and pull-ups.  I know I won't be a serious martial artist but I think it will compliment my intellectual pursuits well.


May I inquire as to what type of kicks you plan on developing?
And what kind of kneeing? What will your footwork be for both the kicks and knees. Will you be lifting your heel off the ground or having it planted? Will you be pivoting the supporting foot or stepping on the kick?
When punching will you be using a vertical fist, a diagonal fist, a horizontal fist. Will you also be doing hammer fist and back fists. Will the punches be a whipping back fist or a pre-cantered fist. Will you be doing circular punching, dropping punches, dropping step punching, rotating body punching etc. All of these are Basic Fundamental things within the different ways to strike. What modest skills are you working to develop?
Gloved hands, wrapped hands, or bare knuckled? All are different and how one strikes with them is a basic.
Kettlebell training for strength, cardio, bodybuilding or flexibility? All are different.


----------



## Flying Crane

People are still spending time on this thread?


----------



## Spinedoc

marvelous65 said:


> Musashi's vastly superior skill with a sword should not deter you from applying the principles of study he purported.  Learn strategy.  Make yourself a writer.  And, yes, you could even lead life traveling the countryside, many practitioners of the other arts do.  Why is there such an emphasis among martial artists for competition? Fighting is not everything.




That's sweet. When did I say anything about competition. The martial arts I study do not have competition, nor am I remotely interested in it.


----------



## Danny T

Flying Crane said:


> People are still spending time on this thread?


Just having fun playing with this discussion.


----------



## Steve

marvelous65 said:


> Maybe I should just work on having a stance like that of a mountain.


I wish you the best of luck.  I really do.  Just consider that if you want to be able to play tennis, you need people to play tennis with.  You need partners who will help you develop the timing and allow you to cultivate the technique.

Even in chess, you need an opponent.  While you might have the advantage of being able to play against a computer, you still need some resistance in order to improve.  On your own, you'll only get so far. 

If that's what you want, great.  Have fun.  But, you asked a question and seem unhappy with the answer you received.  There's a disconnect here that you are reacting to, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.


----------



## Steve

Danny T said:


> Just having fun playing with this discussion.


I think if you guys don't want to have an earnest discussion, you could choose to simply not post a response.


----------



## Danny T

Steve said:


> I think if you guys don't want to have an earnest discussion, you could choose to simply not post a response.


Attempted to have an earnest discussion. He stated of the discussion, " I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!"

He isn't interested in a discussion, he feels he is victorious so he was in a competition, a debate.
So now I'm have fun.


----------



## Blindside

marvelous65 said:


> I
> Thank you but I don't own a tv I find it to inhibit my writing practice.



You seem to own a computer, here you can stream it from amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Billy-Blanks-This-Tae-Bo/dp/B00I3C1VP0/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1427172757


----------



## marvelous65

Orange Lightning said:


> That's fine. You definitely don't need to be a hardass or anything. Modest training will develop modest skills.
> Why just kicks and knees on the bob?
> 
> There is one thing that is pretty important. You have to have things you can hit. Without something you can hit really hard, you won't know what it feels like to land a solid blow. It's kind of hard to explain.
> When I was little and I was just starting in staff stuff, I didn't have any targets to hit hard. When I got my first heavybag (a military canvas bag filled with jeans and whatnot) I was confident I could hit it hard and well without trouble. For the most part, my quick and flashy technique didn't have any power, and got caught up whenever I was in close quarters. Many of my moves didn't work at all because the bag *stops* the staff and wouldn't all me to just push through it like I had a lightsaber.
> The moral was that you need to know how to connect blows, and what that feels like, before you try getting advanced. If you don't know what it feels like to punch correctly (which you can learn from pounding on things) then you'll probably be doing a lot of bad punching with all your shadowboxing. They might feel crisp, but lack leverage or power. You don't necessarily want to be punching super hard when you're shadowboxing, but.....this is hard to explain in just text You get what I mean right?



I haven't been boxing against my BoB much because it slides around and I have to keep putting back in place disrupting my flow.  I've been training punch movements with wrist weights and kettlebells.


----------



## marvelous65

Danny T said:


> May I inquire as to what type of kicks you plan on developing?
> And what kind of kneeing? What will your footwork be for both the kicks and knees. Will you be lifting your heel off the ground or having it planted? Will you be pivoting the supporting foot or stepping on the kick?
> When punching will you be using a vertical fist, a diagonal fist, a horizontal fist. Will you also be doing hammer fist and back fists. Will the punches be a whipping back fist or a pre-cantered fist. Will you be doing circular punching, dropping punches, dropping step punching, rotating body punching etc. All of these are Basic Fundamental things within the different ways to strike. What modest skills are you working to develop?
> Gloved hands, wrapped hands, or bare knuckled? All are different and how one strikes with them is a basic.
> Kettlebell training for strength, cardio, bodybuilding or flexibility? All are different.



I'm not doing any of this. When I say modest skills I mean balance, speed, timing and power.  Remember I'm just looking for martial arts to compliment my intellectual pursuits.  But I've mentioned this before - I don't know why I have to be a serious student of the martial arts in order to be one at all.  At the coffee shop where I play chess we have players of a wide range of ability.  Some study some don't.  The ones that don't don't win as often but we don't judge them as being less equipped to play the game than the rest of us.  It's is too bad you can't view martial arts in a similar light.


----------



## marvelous65

Steve said:


> I wish you the best of luck.  I really do.  Just consider that if you want to be able to play tennis, you need people to play tennis with.  You need partners who will help you develop the timing and allow you to cultivate the technique.
> 
> Even in chess, you need an opponent.  While you might have the advantage of being able to play against a computer, you still need some resistance in order to improve.  On your own, you'll only get so far.
> 
> If that's what you want, great.  Have fun.  But, you asked a question and seem unhappy with the answer you received.  There's a disconnect here that you are reacting to, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.




Maybe you came into this thread late and did not catch all the details.  Early people told me a I needed a teacher and I eventually conceded this.  I am going to have someone give me pointers on my training. And secondly, I fully intend on picking up a sparring partner once the snow melts and I have space to utilize for such a purpose. Every time I concede a point or explain that my ideas and wants do not contradict what all of you are prescribing you ignore this and just argue that I need to take martial arts more serious.  There is no reason why I can't ascribe to a moderate amount of martial arts training and still find it rewarding.  Period.


----------



## marvelous65

Blindside said:


> You seem to own a computer, here you can stream it from amazon:
> Amazon.com Billy Blanks This Is Tae Bo Billy Blanks Gayle Blanks Amazon Instant Video



My computer screen is too close to my dinner table for me to practice martial arts looking at the screen.


----------



## marvelous65

All of you have convinced me that I need a teacher.  I have conceded it.  You argue that I need to have others I spar to gain a sense of applicability to my learning.  And that  is something I never contested.  Outside of that I have to take martial arts more seriously to get anything out of them - what basis do any of you have for continuing to post on this thread.  Earlier in this thread, I thought I was just having some fun with debate against knowledgeable martial artists.  I thought it important that I defend my stance that I needn't be a serious student of the martial arts.  But now this argument is dragging on, and from my perspective, it seems, you all are continuing despite having progressively less and less ground to stand on.  I'm starting to lose respect for all of you.


----------



## Tez3

Danny T said:


> Attempted to have an earnest discussion. He stated of the discussion, " I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!"
> 
> He isn't interested in a discussion, he feels he is victorious so he was in a competition, a debate.
> So now I'm have fun.




He has had a lot of good advice, which he asked for having come here first, and has in return given some quite rude and abusive answers to people who have been only kind to him. Then as you say he seems to think he has won some sort of victory over those same people who have only given their help and knowledge freely and with the best intentions.
I think he has come here to troll, nothing he has said has convinced me otherwise.


----------



## Tez3

marvelous65 said:


> But now this argument is dragging on, and from my perspective, it seems, you all are continuing despite having progressively less and less ground to stand on. I'm starting to lose respect for all of you


----------



## Orange Lightning

marvelous65 said:


> All of you have convinced me that I need a teacher.  I have conceded it.  You argue that I need to have others I spar to gain a sense of applicability to my learning.  And that  is something I never contested.  Outside of that I have to take martial arts more seriously to get anything out of them - what basis do any of you have for continuing to post on this thread.  Earlier in this thread, I thought I was just having some fun with debate against knowledgeable martial artists.  I thought it important that I defend my stance that I needn't be a serious student of the martial arts.  But now this argument is dragging on, and from my perspective, it seems, you all are continuing despite having progressively less and less ground to stand on.  I'm starting to lose respect for all of you.



Dude, I get what you're saying, but these kinds of comments are really only digging yourself into a hole. 
I think it would help to just be more specific with your questions. This whole self teaching is a bad idea thing doesn't need to be anyone's focus. For whatever reason, the focus became whether or not self teaching is viable as a learning method instead of advice for solo training, which even people that go to  schools do. I think it had to do with what was being debated and the terminology that was used to debate it (self teaching instead of solo training), but I'm digressing.

For example, how to make an improvised heavybag? How to improve kicking precision and control? Shadowboxing advice? Iron palm training do's and don'ts? 
You can just google workouts that are specific to your needs. If you want the community's take on it, just make a thread out of it. Weight lifting for bo staff? Calisthenics or weight lifting? What kind of weight lifting should I be doing? 

Less debating the merits of self teaching and how you're going to stick to it despite everyone saying you shouldn't (which I can totally respect), then agitating people. You just won't get the information you want this way.


----------



## MJS

marvelous65 said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I've decided I want to take on martial arts as a learning project.  I'm not looking to be a tournament level martial artist; and I do not feel that self-defense is a major concern - I live in a very safe, rural, community.  So the idea of studying martial arts is purely for educational purposes.  Now, I have several dvds from Contemporary Fighting Arts and I have a Body Opponent Bag.  With the BoB I've been working on razing, knee strikes, and kicks for about 25 minutes a day; I intend to do some shadow boxing once the snow melts (I live in Vermont).  I would like to find a training partner to spar and wrestle with but will tackle that when the time comes.  So my question is, how might I continue to develop a solo training method?



IMO, your time would be better spent training under a teacher, rather than trying to figure things out via dvd.  I've said it before, I'll say it a million more times....nothing can replace a live teacher.  People make the excuse of no schools around, no schools that teach what they want, etc.  There are alternatives, however, it takes dedication to actually follow through with those other options.


----------



## Steve

marvelous65 said:


> Maybe you came into this thread late and did not catch all the details.  Early people told me a I needed a teacher and I eventually conceded this.  I am going to have someone give me pointers on my training. And secondly, I fully intend on picking up a sparring partner once the snow melts and I have space to utilize for such a purpose. Every time I concede a point or explain that my ideas and wants do not contradict what all of you are prescribing you ignore this and just argue that I need to take martial arts more serious.  There is no reason why I can't ascribe to a moderate amount of martial arts training and still find it rewarding.  Period.


I wish you the best.  if you think about it, drop in from time to time and let us know how it's going.


----------



## Steve

Danny T said:


> Attempted to have an earnest discussion. He stated of the discussion, " I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!"
> 
> He isn't interested in a discussion, he feels he is victorious so he was in a competition, a debate.
> So now I'm have fun.


So, your behavior is his fault?


----------



## Danny T

Steve said:


> So, your behavior is his fault?


??? Excuse me.???
My behavior as to asking for more information while giving him a bit of knowledge as to how much more there is to understand for what modest martial art skill he is wanting? Is that the behavior you are referring to. Or is it that I know he really doesn't want a serious discussion?


----------



## Steve

Danny T said:


> ??? Excuse me.???
> My behavior as to asking for more information while giving him a bit of knowledge as to how much more there is to understand for what modest martial art skill he is wanting? Is that the behavior you are referring to. Or is it that I know he really doesn't want a serious discussion?


I appreciate the constructive comments you've made in the thread.  If you genuinely have more questions, please feel free to send me a PM.


----------



## Transk53

Cmon Steve, you pretty much baited Danny T there. Not good man!



Steve said:


> *If you genuinely have more questions*,


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

marvelous65 said:


> I do have a background in Tae Kwon Do and wrestling - I'm not starting from scratch.


If you have

- finished your college education, you should be able to learn from papers and books.
- a solid MA foundation from any system, you should be able to teach MA skill to yourself.

Many MA guys when they moved to a new place, could not find a MA teacher, and quit their training. They should just use whatever that they have learned in the past and expanded (self-taught) from there.

Will you be able to learn something from this clip if you have a solid MA foundation?


----------



## Danny T

Steve said:


> I appreciate the constructive comments you've made in the thread.  If you genuinely have more questions, please feel free to send me a PM.


This is interesting.
Why a Private Message?
What I have written/stated has been public, my behavior has been public, that you feel my behavior is unsatisfactory is also public. So why  a Private Message?


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm… I'm going to suggest getting a drink, maybe something to snack on, and ensuring you're comfortable before launching on this…

Okay, ready? Cool.



marvelous65 said:


> Unfortunately your recommendation to learn a martial art and the strategies and tactics that go with that martial arts system is not what I am looking for.



Except that's precisely what you stated you're wanting. You wanted help in understanding how to learn martial arts without an instructor (teaching yourself) so that you could write an article about learning martial arts by yourself… all without understanding what "learning martial arts" actually means.

One more time, there is no such single thing as "martial arts". There is no single method. There is no universal approach. Each art is individual and unique… which means that you can do some kind of semi-combative-inspired movements, but that in no way equates to learning martial arts, the same way that learning half a dozen words doesn't equate to learning a language. Especially if those half dozen words are from different languages themselves.

I'll put it this way. I've trained in, and continue to practice, some five different distinct Japanese swordsmanship systems, and have exposure to another half dozen or so, as well as having a fair (outsider) understanding of maybe a dozen more… but none of them are the same. They all have different contexts, situations, tactics, postures, footwork, cutting mechanics, even grips and specific weapons themselves. I mean, sure, they're all using a Japanese sword… but there are variations even within that. There is no simple, generic "sword" art… and, considering the far wider possibilities for moving the body, how can you think there's a single method of  "unarmed hand to hand martial arts" either?



marvelous65 said:


> I work for a living and devote the rest of my time to reading, writing, and playing chess.



Yes, and I work full time, teach a few nights a week, train at home, play a number of musical instruments, read, watch movies, have a social life, and more.

Again… you're just not that special.



marvelous65 said:


> What I wanted was some guidance to incorporate some basic hand to hand combat principles into my modest amount of training.



The biggest problem is that you didn't know what you were actually asking. You have an idea, an image, of what you thought you were after, but the simple, cold, hard reality is that it doesn't match up with the way things actually work.

I mean… you just want some basic hand-to-hand combat principles? Okay… always strike with the palm turned down, hitting with the first two knuckles. But when you punch, always punch with the fist vertical, and impact with the bottom three knuckles. Blocking is a vital skill, but, as we all know, there isn't any blocking in martial arts. You should work on offensive, forward moving footwork. Being evasive is the key. Always take the initiative first, but let the opponent make the first move. Move in and control the opponent with grabs, locks and throws while maintaining distance and employing kicks for range and power.

Which of these is right? That will depend on your chosen art. There is no single set of principles for "martial arts", even by paring it down to "hand to hand".



marvelous65 said:


> But to most of you who responded (and you Tez3 in particular) this seems to be insulting.



Then you've missed the meaning of the responses. We're not insulted (well… we weren't at the beginning…), but we were pointing out the issues with your approach.



marvelous65 said:


> This is very much to my dismay; any boxing coach could give me advice on how to train for a fight. Any chess coach could give me extensive advice on how to study the game independently.



No, a boxing coach can give you advice on training boxing for a fight, and a chess coach will give you advice on playing chess. Ask the same boxing coach about joint locks, knife defence, staff use etc, and you'll get a very different form of advice, at a very different level… at the same time, the chess coach won't really be the person to ask about poker strategy, or even checkers, or backgammon… or basketball.

Get the difference? A boxing coach won't give you kicking tips. He'll give you boxing tips. In other words, a specific methodology pertaining to a specific system and approach. Not general "martial arts skills". That doesn't exist.



marvelous65 said:


> But many of you have called into question my logic in comparing chess (or writing) to martial arts as if there were no overlap in their practices.



You've missed the point entirely. The difference is in the learning of them, not the practice.



marvelous65 said:


> But my bet is that you probably don't even know who Josh Waitzkin; he happened to have been a national chess champion several times in his youth; he then went on to share the title of world champion in pushing hands and very much attributed his success the study habits he picked up from learning chess.



Honestly, who cares who Josh Waitzkin is? In this conversation, he's thoroughly irrelevant. Sure, you can get a lot of benefit from chess and it's many lessons… no-one has argued that (no-one even suggested there was an argument to be had). So I'm not sure you're following what you're being told here…



marvelous65 said:


> For a little while, you all had me convinced that learning martial arts is in someway different than learning anything else.  But now I'm a little less sure.  My uncertainty lies in that there is a consensus among all of you that martial arts are unique.  And that studying "a martial art" takes greater dedication than study of any other disciplines - and that is just plain foolish.



The only person here who has spoken about discipline or dedication in this regard has been you… so, again, you're getting in the way of even listening to what you're being told. That said, yeah, martial arts are fairly unlike other areas of study… they are learnt by doing, and they are learnt by having an example impart the specific methodologies to you, in a rather specific way. They're not just physical, and they're not just intellectual… and those two aspects still don't make up the whole story either.

Realistically, what a martial art is teaching you is a specific approach to problem solving in a physical (combative) environment. If you simply look at them as an intellectual set of ideas, you won't be able to process fast enough to actually apply them. And, if you just look at them as physical methods, you'll miss the actual lessons that are being imparted. And if you miss the rest, then there's nothing much of value there in the first place.



marvelous65 said:


> To those of you who encouraged me to find a teacher - thank you.  But to those who somehow missed the point that I was a beginning martial artist looking for no more than a hint at what I should do to begin a practice which would incorporate sound discipline and proper tactics, and attempted nothing more than a lashing, that's too bad.



Discipline is entirely on you… and proper tactics are specific to the system you're attempting to learn. Without learning a specific system, how can you have proper tactics?

Look, we get that you're a beginner in this… you have to realise that, in a large number of cases, you have decades of experience explaining things to you here. We know what's needed, and we know what's going to have little benefit. And the first thing to do is to refine down exactly what you're doing… "basic martial arts" really isn't anything at all.



marvelous65 said:


> I'm not here to stroke your egos and tell you all how great your feedback is regardless of if it is filled with dissension.  I'm realizing now that an interest in martial arts may be misguided if then I'd be associated with the likes of yourselves.



And we're not here to stroke yours… although you certainly seem happy enough to do that for yourself. Again, though, you're allowing your own biases, based in the fact that you came in here with an idea of what you wanted, but no real understanding of what you were asking about, to colour the way you think you're being addressed. I'd suggest taking a step back to see what you're actually being told.



marvelous65 said:


> In the future I'll know that teaching myself hand to hand combat techniques and principles will not make me a martial artist. And, instead, a street fighter; that sounds rather cool.  Peace.



No, not learning a martial art means you're not a martial artist. You're also not a street fighter either, as, well, you have no interest in fighting, street or otherwise. You're just a guy playing at what he thinks are fighting techniques in his backyard… which is really nothing.



marvelous65 said:


> What will I need luck for?  All I'm doing is a little training on a BoB.



Training what on a BOB, though? Just throwing random strikes, without any real basis, structure, intent, or similar isn't much of any real training… it's like thinking you're going to get fit and strong by occasionally doing a push up every once in a while, rather than having a guided program set up by a professional who knows how to get your body to work properly.



marvelous65 said:


> I just want to leave this conversation with a few words of insight.



This'll be good…



marvelous65 said:


> Miyamoto says that strategy is the craft of the warrior but when I asked all of you how to better understand strategy from martial arts training I got nothing.



Son, you're going to try to explain Musashi to me? Seriously?

Here's a little insight for you, then.

Musashi Miyamoto Shinmen Fujiwara no Genshin wrote his various articles, including the famous Gorin no Sho, not for a general martial populace, but specifically for the practitioners of his own art. In other words, when he's talking about strategy, he's talking about his personal arts' strategy, not strategy in general. He's speaking specifically about the strategy inherent in the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu… and saying that the application and study of his strategies is the craft of a warrior in his tutelage. To be clear here, the Gorin no Sho itself was written for one particular student… one who had the physical techniques down incredibly well, but was lacking in his understanding of the underlying strategy and tactical methodology. The Gorin no Sho was written directly to impart those aspects to that student… and, as a result, was really a fairly personal communique from a teacher to a student. It wasn't meant to be taken as general advice for all warriors… in fact, that kinda goes against the ideals of the book itself.

The only people for whom the book has real meaning, in it's intended spirit, are the members and practitioners of Musashi's system itself… those who study the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. And you might be surprised at just how many members here have experience and exposure to that system in various levels.

But, if you want to know why you got "nothing" (you didn't, of course… but you are unable to recognise what you actually got), it's that strategy is not a single thing… it's highly contextually dependant. Strategy for what martial art? For what context? Without an answer to that, there can be no answer to a request for guidance on your part.



marvelous65 said:


> Miyamoto also says that a true warrior has a taste for writing equal to his taste for swordsmanship.  But when I posed to all of you that I thought that martial arts would be a natural extension with in my studies, you said that writing practice has no relevance to martial arts study.



Actually, no, he doesn't. Musashi spoke about not restricting your study to simply methods of violence, encouraging his students to also be aware of, and to gain skill in, a variety of other arts… and when it came to "writing", that wasn't really what he meant either. You have to realise that "writing" at the time meant shodo… Japanese calligraphy… which has a number of connections to swordsmanship, from the idea of the no uchi, to a great precision over the use of the tip of your implement, a confidence in the movement, and so on. He really wasn't saying anything about writing articles for online blogs.



marvelous65 said:


> So may I suggest that all of you go out and buy The Art of Learning by Josh Waitzkin.  This is a book that follows Josh as he achieves greatness as a child in chess and how he applies that learning to his study of Tai Chi.  Maybe you all will broaden your understanding of martial arts study in the process.  And then in the future, when a newcomer to the martial arts poses a question with sincere hopes to learn something, you will not feel obligated to insult their intelligence with narrow minded, hollow, advice.



There are prodigies in the world… and Josh sounds like he was likely one of them. Of course, none of this is relevant to you (you're not special or unique in any way), your situation, the sheer scope of the lack of your understanding in this area.

In the future, should you venture onto an area that you are so woefully unaware of, you might want to keep your mind open to actually learning, rather than maintaining your own narrow minded perceptions… and your intelligence has nothing to do with any of that.



marvelous65 said:


> I'm not trying to be world champ either.  I just wanted to get a sense of training methodology which all of you failed to offer.



The thing is, that's thoroughly irrelevant as well. You've harped on a few times about how you aren't interested in winning tournaments (honestly, so what? Neither am I… or a number of others here), self defence (again, fine), but just want to teach yourself martial arts… as you're not interested in these areas, the training doesn't have to be particularly high level.

Thing is, that's completely irrelevant.

It doesn't matter how you want to apply the training, if at all, if you're wanting to train martial arts, you have to actually train it. Otherwise, your argument is the same as saying you want to teach yourself classical French cooking, but it doesn't matter if you don't learn how to use an oven, and only make toast, as you don't want to open a restaurant… it's pointless… if you're not learning to cook, you're not learning to cook. Same here… if you're not learning martial arts, you're not learning martial arts. As a result, trying to learn them by yourself to write an article about learning them by yourself, when you can't and aren't actually learning them at all, means that the entire construct is a failure before you even start.



marvelous65 said:


> It was said early on in this debate that the amount of knowledge offered in this thread is staggering.  But I am a beginner martial artist.  And while I'll readily admit I learned not to be self-taught from all of you.  Finding a teacher is the only advice any of you had.  That's not saying much.  I feel I've walked away from this debate with a clear and decisive victory over people who are supposedly knowledgeable martial artists.  Hoorah!



Son, you have had no victory at all. You have failed to understand even what you were asking yourself, let alone the answers (and reasons for them) that you have received. Believe me, the amount of knowledge shown in this thread is minuscule compared with what you could gain from the membership here… but if you can't follow the most basic, essential piece of advice in the first place, why would be go beyond it?



marvelous65 said:


> If I fail at martial arts will I never be able to teach someone how to study martial arts?  And if I failed in this way how would that make me any different than you?



You're still missing the point.

If you can't learn a martial art, you can't write about how you can learn martial arts. And, as far as your last line, you do realise that you're actually conversing with a number of instructors at this point, yeah? The big difference is that our students actually come to us to learn the specific arts we teach… so we have a base framework to start from. You haven't even gotten that… which is why we can't give you anything that you think we should.



marvelous65 said:


> I can practice razing against my BoB and achieve at least moderate competency in footwork from shadow boxing.  These are methods of training I already figured on before I approached all of you with my question on how to be self-taught martial arts.



Of course, that might get you some modicum of skill (such as it is) in "razing"… but again, you're far from doing anything to do with martial arts at that point.



marvelous65 said:


> Now, that I have gleamed sooooo much wisdom from the likes of yourselves, I still think that practicing razing, doing a little shadow boxing, and wrestling with friends will suffice for what I want to get out of my training.



Suffice for what, though? For your stated aim of writing an article about how to teach yourself something you don't know and can't teach yourself?



marvelous65 said:


> They say that when the only tool you have is a hammer - all challenges that lay ahead will look as if being a nail.  All of you have expressed just such a soundness in addressing my inquiry.  You have suggested that I have a teacher.  But none of you were able to express anything beyond just that; unfortunately, you are all seemingly ill equipped to offer advice on martial arts.



We suggested you need a teacher because you need a teacher. You need to learn from someone who already knows what you're wanting to learn… and, if that's martial arts, it needs to be a specific martial art. One more time, there is no generic "martial arts" skill or methodology… so until you define exactly what martial art methodology you're wanting to focus on, getting an instructor is the essential first step. Until you do that, there is no further to go.

Believe me, son, I can offer advice, insight, and more on a far wider range of martial arts than you're even aware exist… but you don't have anywhere near the base to have the first clue what I'd be saying.



marvelous65 said:


> Musashi's vastly superior skill with a sword should not deter you from applying the principles of study he purported.  Learn strategy.  Make yourself a writer.  And, yes, you could even lead life traveling the countryside, many practitioners of the other arts do.  Why is there such an emphasis among martial artists for competition? Fighting is not everything.



Yeah… again, you're really not in a place to offer Musashi as a go-to…



marvelous65 said:


> No.  I was thinking of just crudely going about developing a little rhythm and elusiveness.  I'll more or less attempt a means of staying in shape while developing a modest amount of skill.  Thanks.



Which is all quite different to your original stated aim and intent.

But here… if you want to stay in shape, go to the gym. If you want to develop a modest amount of skill, first figure out what you want to develop the skill in ("martial arts" doesn't mean much)… then we can look at expanding from there. But really, odds are nothing we put down will make much sense without you having some basic understanding.



marvelous65 said:


> In my independent study I found out that boxers get up to jumping rope for over 15 minutes at a time.  I will not bother with that either.  It just doesn't serve my purposes.  I'm only looking for moderate skill and ability; your all trying to persuade me into being a serious student of the martial arts.  It's just not going to happen.  If that was what I had in mind I would not have thought to be self-taught in the first place.  Duh!



Er… do you know why boxers spend so much time with the rope?

This is part of the issue… you're dismissing things without understanding the reasons for them. Again, I suggest you take a step back, and recognise that the advice you're getting is from many years of experience, and isn't given flippantly.



marvelous65 said:


> Ok...so here's what I'm thinking.  I'm going to stick by razing to cover having a training methodology.  And I'm going to work with an instructor who has already agreed to helping me out.  I took a fencing class with him already (see I'm not totally opposed to instruction).  Then I'm going to develop modest skills from shadow boxing and practicing kicks and knee strikes on my BoB.  I'll will then compliment this practice with kettlebell training and pull-ups.  I know I won't be a serious martial artist but I think it will compliment my intellectual pursuits well.



It's not that you won't be a serious martial artist, you simply won't be a martial artist at all.

Here's the thing. You can be completely dedicated to this routine… highly disciplined in your attention to it… focused on everything you're doing. But, if there's no actual base to it, no underlying set of philosophies (combative and otherwise), no unifying principles, no tactical consistency, and no martial art to it, then you very simply won't be a martial artist at all… no matter how serious you are being about it.

So the question would be what exactly is this guy an instructor of? And are you going to be learning that art, or just playing around?



marvelous65 said:


> No...I can dabble in martial arts all I want and never get crushed like a grape.



Sure… but you'll also never learn martial arts… you'll have a small grasp on a limited physical skill set, which might or might not be thoroughly flawed from the outset… and, of course, should you find yourself in a situation where you do need, or want to call on it… well… grape.



marvelous65 said:


> Maybe I should just work on having a stance like that of a mountain.



Do you know what that means? Or how it's achieved? When it's good, and when it's not advised? How it works within the tactical methods of a particular art? Which arts have such concepts? And which will tell you it's a really, really bad idea? Or why?

Can you see how having a single idea or concept, without the surrounding context, leads to absolutely nothing?



marvelous65 said:


> I'm not doing any of this. When I say modest skills I mean balance, speed, timing and power.



None of those are skills… they're attributes. And they will have different levels of focus and importance, based on the art you're studying… as well as having very different interpretations. Take timing for example… each art will have it's own sense of timing… it's not just one thing.



marvelous65 said:


> Remember I'm just looking for martial arts to compliment my intellectual pursuits.



Then you've missed the point.



marvelous65 said:


> But I've mentioned this before - I don't know why I have to be a serious student of the martial arts in order to be one at all.



You don't. But you do have to be a student of martial arts to be a student of martial arts. Kinda basic to the whole thing, really… and something that's been said since the first page.



marvelous65 said:


> At the coffee shop where I play chess we have players of a wide range of ability.  Some study some don't.  The ones that don't don't win as often but we don't judge them as being less equipped to play the game than the rest of us.  It's is too bad you can't view martial arts in a similar light.



Sure… but none of them are making up the rules as they go, none of them are inventing new pieces because they don't get how the existing ones work, none of them are playing on grass with a racquet, and calling it chess… to play chess, you have to learn chess, and then play it. To train in a martial art, you have to actually, you know, train in a martial art.



marvelous65 said:


> Maybe you came into this thread late and did not catch all the details.  Early people told me a I needed a teacher and I eventually conceded this.  I am going to have someone give me pointers on my training.



Which is still not learning martial arts.



marvelous65 said:


> And secondly, I fully intend on picking up a sparring partner once the snow melts and I have space to utilize for such a purpose.



Sparring in what, though? How do you determine the context and construct? Are there rules? Is there a restricted technical approach? Is it purely striking, or grappling, or both? Are weapons involved, or not? Any protective equipment? Timed rounds, or random? How do you know if you're doing well or not (that's not as easy as you may believe), or improving (same)?



marvelous65 said:


> Every time I concede a point or explain that my ideas and wants do not contradict what all of you are prescribing you ignore this and just argue that I need to take martial arts more serious.



No, we're saying that if you want to learn martial arts, you have to actually, well, learn martial arts.



marvelous65 said:


> There is no reason why I can't ascribe to a moderate amount of martial arts training and still find it rewarding.  Period.



Sure, you can get rewards from your plan… but our point has been that your stated intent (to learn martial arts by yourself) is not something that you'll get. Period.



marvelous65 said:


> All of you have convinced me that I need a teacher.  I have conceded it.



Actually, no, you haven't. You've said you're going to have someone give you pointers… that's really not the same thing. It's like saying that you want to learn another language, we're telling you to pick one (say, French… or Japanese… or Swahili), you argued against the idea, and said that it didn't matter if you weren't fluent, as you weren't going overseas… then you're "conceding" that you will ask someone to give you a couple of words in German, as that'll help.

Nope. Either learn martial arts or don't. And to learn, get an instructor. And actually attend classes.



marvelous65 said:


> You argue that I need to have others I spar to gain a sense of applicability to my learning.  And that  is something I never contested.



Eh, I'm not a fan of sparring, so I didn't say anything of the kind… but realistically, the first thing is to have a sense of what you're trying to apply… without something as a base, you really don't have anything to test. Again, if you're not learning martial arts, you're not learning martial arts… so sparring isn't really part of this at all.



marvelous65 said:


> Outside of that I have to take martial arts more seriously to get anything out of them - what basis do any of you have for continuing to post on this thread.



Again, no, you have to take martial arts to get something out of them.



marvelous65 said:


> Earlier in this thread, I thought I was just having some fun with debate against knowledgeable martial artists.  I thought it important that I defend my stance that I needn't be a serious student of the martial arts.  But now this argument is dragging on, and from my perspective, it seems, you all are continuing despite having progressively less and less ground to stand on.  I'm starting to lose respect for all of you.



Perhaps if you actually took on board what you're being told, we wouldn't have to keep repeating it. As far as losing respect, frankly son, you don't have the first clue what would qualify here.


----------



## Steve

Danny T said:


> This is interesting.
> Why a Private Message?
> What I have written/stated has been public, my behavior has been public, that you feel my behavior is unsatisfactory is also public. So why  a Private Message?


Because this isn't the right place for the discussion, Danny.  As I said before, if you really think this is interesting, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Steve

Just to sum up, the OP emphasized that he is looking for casual training to develop some moderate skills.  He seems to agree with us that a teacher will be necessary.  He acknowledges that he will need training partners. 

We all know, including the OP, that he's going to have limited success without a qualified mentor/instructor. 

What's left to discuss?  Where's the dead horse emoticon?  The last 5+ pages seem to be about beating this guy up with what he has since acknowledged were unrealistic ideas about training.  I just can't wrap my brain around exchanges that amount to, "I have already conceded this point." "No, you haven't." 

My recommendation is that we consider our points well made and let it go.


----------



## marvelous65

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm… I'm going to suggest getting a drink, maybe something to snack on, and ensuring you're comfortable before launching on this…
> 
> Okay, ready? Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Except that's precisely what you stated you're wanting. You wanted help in understanding how to learn martial arts without an instructor (teaching yourself) so that you could write an article about learning martial arts by yourself… all without understanding what "learning martial arts" actually means.
> 
> One more time, there is no such single thing as "martial arts". There is no single method. There is no universal approach. Each art is individual and unique… which means that you can do some kind of semi-combative-inspired movements, but that in no way equates to learning martial arts, the same way that learning half a dozen words doesn't equate to learning a language. Especially if those half dozen words are from different languages themselves.
> 
> I'll put it this way. I've trained in, and continue to practice, some five different distinct Japanese swordsmanship systems, and have exposure to another half dozen or so, as well as having a fair (outsider) understanding of maybe a dozen more… but none of them are the same. They all have different contexts, situations, tactics, postures, footwork, cutting mechanics, even grips and specific weapons themselves. I mean, sure, they're all using a Japanese sword… but there are variations even within that. There is no simple, generic "sword" art… and, considering the far wider possibilities for moving the body, how can you think there's a single method of  "unarmed hand to hand martial arts" either?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, and I work full time, teach a few nights a week, train at home, play a number of musical instruments, read, watch movies, have a social life, and more.
> 
> Again… you're just not that special.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest problem is that you didn't know what you were actually asking. You have an idea, an image, of what you thought you were after, but the simple, cold, hard reality is that it doesn't match up with the way things actually work.
> 
> I mean… you just want some basic hand-to-hand combat principles? Okay… always strike with the palm turned down, hitting with the first two knuckles. But when you punch, always punch with the fist vertical, and impact with the bottom three knuckles. Blocking is a vital skill, but, as we all know, there isn't any blocking in martial arts. You should work on offensive, forward moving footwork. Being evasive is the key. Always take the initiative first, but let the opponent make the first move. Move in and control the opponent with grabs, locks and throws while maintaining distance and employing kicks for range and power.
> 
> Which of these is right? That will depend on your chosen art. There is no single set of principles for "martial arts", even by paring it down to "hand to hand".
> 
> 
> 
> Then you've missed the meaning of the responses. We're not insulted (well… we weren't at the beginning…), but we were pointing out the issues with your approach.
> 
> 
> 
> No, a boxing coach can give you advice on training boxing for a fight, and a chess coach will give you advice on playing chess. Ask the same boxing coach about joint locks, knife defence, staff use etc, and you'll get a very different form of advice, at a very different level… at the same time, the chess coach won't really be the person to ask about poker strategy, or even checkers, or backgammon… or basketball.
> 
> Get the difference? A boxing coach won't give you kicking tips. He'll give you boxing tips. In other words, a specific methodology pertaining to a specific system and approach. Not general "martial arts skills". That doesn't exist.
> 
> 
> 
> You've missed the point entirely. The difference is in the learning of them, not the practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, who cares who Josh Waitzkin is? In this conversation, he's thoroughly irrelevant. Sure, you can get a lot of benefit from chess and it's many lessons… no-one has argued that (no-one even suggested there was an argument to be had). So I'm not sure you're following what you're being told here…
> 
> 
> 
> The only person here who has spoken about discipline or dedication in this regard has been you… so, again, you're getting in the way of even listening to what you're being told. That said, yeah, martial arts are fairly unlike other areas of study… they are learnt by doing, and they are learnt by having an example impart the specific methodologies to you, in a rather specific way. They're not just physical, and they're not just intellectual… and those two aspects still don't make up the whole story either.
> 
> Realistically, what a martial art is teaching you is a specific approach to problem solving in a physical (combative) environment. If you simply look at them as an intellectual set of ideas, you won't be able to process fast enough to actually apply them. And, if you just look at them as physical methods, you'll miss the actual lessons that are being imparted. And if you miss the rest, then there's nothing much of value there in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> Discipline is entirely on you… and proper tactics are specific to the system you're attempting to learn. Without learning a specific system, how can you have proper tactics?
> 
> Look, we get that you're a beginner in this… you have to realise that, in a large number of cases, you have decades of experience explaining things to you here. We know what's needed, and we know what's going to have little benefit. And the first thing to do is to refine down exactly what you're doing… "basic martial arts" really isn't anything at all.
> 
> 
> 
> And we're not here to stroke yours… although you certainly seem happy enough to do that for yourself. Again, though, you're allowing your own biases, based in the fact that you came in here with an idea of what you wanted, but no real understanding of what you were asking about, to colour the way you think you're being addressed. I'd suggest taking a step back to see what you're actually being told.
> 
> 
> 
> No, not learning a martial art means you're not a martial artist. You're also not a street fighter either, as, well, you have no interest in fighting, street or otherwise. You're just a guy playing at what he thinks are fighting techniques in his backyard… which is really nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Training what on a BOB, though? Just throwing random strikes, without any real basis, structure, intent, or similar isn't much of any real training… it's like thinking you're going to get fit and strong by occasionally doing a push up every once in a while, rather than having a guided program set up by a professional who knows how to get your body to work properly.
> 
> 
> 
> This'll be good…
> 
> 
> 
> Son, you're going to try to explain Musashi to me? Seriously?
> 
> Here's a little insight for you, then.
> 
> Musashi Miyamoto Shinmen Fujiwara no Genshin wrote his various articles, including the famous Gorin no Sho, not for a general martial populace, but specifically for the practitioners of his own art. In other words, when he's talking about strategy, he's talking about his personal arts' strategy, not strategy in general. He's speaking specifically about the strategy inherent in the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu… and saying that the application and study of his strategies is the craft of a warrior in his tutelage. To be clear here, the Gorin no Sho itself was written for one particular student… one who had the physical techniques down incredibly well, but was lacking in his understanding of the underlying strategy and tactical methodology. The Gorin no Sho was written directly to impart those aspects to that student… and, as a result, was really a fairly personal communique from a teacher to a student. It wasn't meant to be taken as general advice for all warriors… in fact, that kinda goes against the ideals of the book itself.
> 
> The only people for whom the book has real meaning, in it's intended spirit, are the members and practitioners of Musashi's system itself… those who study the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. And you might be surprised at just how many members here have experience and exposure to that system in various levels.
> 
> But, if you want to know why you got "nothing" (you didn't, of course… but you are unable to recognise what you actually got), it's that strategy is not a single thing… it's highly contextually dependant. Strategy for what martial art? For what context? Without an answer to that, there can be no answer to a request for guidance on your part.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, he doesn't. Musashi spoke about not restricting your study to simply methods of violence, encouraging his students to also be aware of, and to gain skill in, a variety of other arts… and when it came to "writing", that wasn't really what he meant either. You have to realise that "writing" at the time meant shodo… Japanese calligraphy… which has a number of connections to swordsmanship, from the idea of the no uchi, to a great precision over the use of the tip of your implement, a confidence in the movement, and so on. He really wasn't saying anything about writing articles for online blogs.
> 
> 
> 
> There are prodigies in the world… and Josh sounds like he was likely one of them. Of course, none of this is relevant to you (you're not special or unique in any way), your situation, the sheer scope of the lack of your understanding in this area.
> 
> In the future, should you venture onto an area that you are so woefully unaware of, you might want to keep your mind open to actually learning, rather than maintaining your own narrow minded perceptions… and your intelligence has nothing to do with any of that.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, that's thoroughly irrelevant as well. You've harped on a few times about how you aren't interested in winning tournaments (honestly, so what? Neither am I… or a number of others here), self defence (again, fine), but just want to teach yourself martial arts… as you're not interested in these areas, the training doesn't have to be particularly high level.
> 
> Thing is, that's completely irrelevant.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you want to apply the training, if at all, if you're wanting to train martial arts, you have to actually train it. Otherwise, your argument is the same as saying you want to teach yourself classical French cooking, but it doesn't matter if you don't learn how to use an oven, and only make toast, as you don't want to open a restaurant… it's pointless… if you're not learning to cook, you're not learning to cook. Same here… if you're not learning martial arts, you're not learning martial arts. As a result, trying to learn them by yourself to write an article about learning them by yourself, when you can't and aren't actually learning them at all, means that the entire construct is a failure before you even start.
> 
> 
> 
> Son, you have had no victory at all. You have failed to understand even what you were asking yourself, let alone the answers (and reasons for them) that you have received. Believe me, the amount of knowledge shown in this thread is minuscule compared with what you could gain from the membership here… but if you can't follow the most basic, essential piece of advice in the first place, why would be go beyond it?
> 
> 
> 
> You're still missing the point.
> 
> If you can't learn a martial art, you can't write about how you can learn martial arts. And, as far as your last line, you do realise that you're actually conversing with a number of instructors at this point, yeah? The big difference is that our students actually come to us to learn the specific arts we teach… so we have a base framework to start from. You haven't even gotten that… which is why we can't give you anything that you think we should.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, that might get you some modicum of skill (such as it is) in "razing"… but again, you're far from doing anything to do with martial arts at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> Suffice for what, though? For your stated aim of writing an article about how to teach yourself something you don't know and can't teach yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> We suggested you need a teacher because you need a teacher. You need to learn from someone who already knows what you're wanting to learn… and, if that's martial arts, it needs to be a specific martial art. One more time, there is no generic "martial arts" skill or methodology… so until you define exactly what martial art methodology you're wanting to focus on, getting an instructor is the essential first step. Until you do that, there is no further to go.
> 
> Believe me, son, I can offer advice, insight, and more on a far wider range of martial arts than you're even aware exist… but you don't have anywhere near the base to have the first clue what I'd be saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah… again, you're really not in a place to offer Musashi as a go-to…
> 
> 
> 
> Which is all quite different to your original stated aim and intent.
> 
> But here… if you want to stay in shape, go to the gym. If you want to develop a modest amount of skill, first figure out what you want to develop the skill in ("martial arts" doesn't mean much)… then we can look at expanding from there. But really, odds are nothing we put down will make much sense without you having some basic understanding.
> 
> 
> 
> Er… do you know why boxers spend so much time with the rope?
> 
> This is part of the issue… you're dismissing things without understanding the reasons for them. Again, I suggest you take a step back, and recognise that the advice you're getting is from many years of experience, and isn't given flippantly.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that you won't be a serious martial artist, you simply won't be a martial artist at all.
> 
> Here's the thing. You can be completely dedicated to this routine… highly disciplined in your attention to it… focused on everything you're doing. But, if there's no actual base to it, no underlying set of philosophies (combative and otherwise), no unifying principles, no tactical consistency, and no martial art to it, then you very simply won't be a martial artist at all… no matter how serious you are being about it.
> 
> So the question would be what exactly is this guy an instructor of? And are you going to be learning that art, or just playing around?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure… but you'll also never learn martial arts… you'll have a small grasp on a limited physical skill set, which might or might not be thoroughly flawed from the outset… and, of course, should you find yourself in a situation where you do need, or want to call on it… well… grape.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what that means? Or how it's achieved? When it's good, and when it's not advised? How it works within the tactical methods of a particular art? Which arts have such concepts? And which will tell you it's a really, really bad idea? Or why?
> 
> Can you see how having a single idea or concept, without the surrounding context, leads to absolutely nothing?
> 
> 
> 
> None of those are skills… they're attributes. And they will have different levels of focus and importance, based on the art you're studying… as well as having very different interpretations. Take timing for example… each art will have it's own sense of timing… it's not just one thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you've missed the point.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't. But you do have to be a student of martial arts to be a student of martial arts. Kinda basic to the whole thing, really… and something that's been said since the first page.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure… but none of them are making up the rules as they go, none of them are inventing new pieces because they don't get how the existing ones work, none of them are playing on grass with a racquet, and calling it chess… to play chess, you have to learn chess, and then play it. To train in a martial art, you have to actually, you know, train in a martial art.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is still not learning martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Sparring in what, though? How do you determine the context and construct? Are there rules? Is there a restricted technical approach? Is it purely striking, or grappling, or both? Are weapons involved, or not? Any protective equipment? Timed rounds, or random? How do you know if you're doing well or not (that's not as easy as you may believe), or improving (same)?
> 
> 
> 
> No, we're saying that if you want to learn martial arts, you have to actually, well, learn martial arts.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, you can get rewards from your plan… but our point has been that your stated intent (to learn martial arts by yourself) is not something that you'll get. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, no, you haven't. You've said you're going to have someone give you pointers… that's really not the same thing. It's like saying that you want to learn another language, we're telling you to pick one (say, French… or Japanese… or Swahili), you argued against the idea, and said that it didn't matter if you weren't fluent, as you weren't going overseas… then you're "conceding" that you will ask someone to give you a couple of words in German, as that'll help.
> 
> Nope. Either learn martial arts or don't. And to learn, get an instructor. And actually attend classes.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, I'm not a fan of sparring, so I didn't say anything of the kind… but realistically, the first thing is to have a sense of what you're trying to apply… without something as a base, you really don't have anything to test. Again, if you're not learning martial arts, you're not learning martial arts… so sparring isn't really part of this at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, no, you have to take martial arts to get something out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps if you actually took on board what you're being told, we wouldn't have to keep repeating it. As far as losing respect, frankly son, you don't have the first clue what would qualify here.



You're stupid!


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## Danny T

marvelous65 said:


> You're stupid!


Now that is an intellectual and mature response.
What say you Steve?


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## jks9199

Reading through some the replies here, I had a thought...

The OP didn't really teach himself chess.  He learned chess by reading a book.  Probably several, designed to teach and offer insights to someone trying to understand chess.  To truly teach himself chess, he'd have had to simply start moving pieces at random until he hit on the proper movements and eventually began to succeed.  I guess doing so would be possible... though exceedingly unlikely.

I've said in other threads that it's NOT impossible to learn martial arts from a book or video.  Just that it's going to be very difficult, and that there are only a handful of people who can really be successful that way.

But if all he's interested in is moving around, beating on BOB, and telling himself he's doing "martial arts"...  Well, I guess he'll succeed.  For whatever it may be worth.


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## marvelous65

You guys take martial arts too seriously - lighten up.


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## marvelous65

jks9199 said:


> Reading through some the replies here, I had a thought...
> 
> The OP didn't really teach himself chess.  He learned chess by reading a book.  Probably several, designed to teach and offer insights to someone trying to understand chess.  To truly teach himself chess, he'd have had to simply start moving pieces at random until he hit on the proper movements and eventually began to succeed.  I guess doing so would be possible... though exceedingly unlikely.
> 
> I've said in other threads that it's NOT impossible to learn martial arts from a book or video.  Just that it's going to be very difficult, and that there are only a handful of people who can really be successful that way.
> 
> But if all he's interested in is moving around, beating on BOB, and telling himself he's doing "martial arts"...  Well, I guess he'll succeed.  For whatever it may be worth.



To say I didn't teach myself chess because I didn't go about it blindly is nothing more than ignorant.  Yes, I read chess books.  I read Twenty of them and I took an online course and went to chess clubs regularly.  I also rode my ten speed bicycle 50 miles to and from a chess gathering in a blizzard.  I had nothing on my hands but fingerless bike gloves.  Can you say you've dedicated yourself to martial arts to such an extent?  Or do you just go to a nice comfortable dojo regularly for lessons?


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## jks9199

marvelous65 said:


> To say I didn't teach myself chess because I didn't go about it blindly is nothing more than ignorant.  Yes, I read chess books.  I read Twenty of them and I took an online course and went to chess clubs regularly.  I also rode my ten speed bicycle 50 miles to and from a chess gathering in a blizzard.  I had nothing on my hands but fingerless bike gloves.  Can you say you've dedicated yourself to martial arts to such an extent?  Or do you just go to a nice comfortable dojo regularly for lessons?


H'mm....  Something seems to have struck a nerve.  Maybe you need to think about how your goals for learning martial arts might feel to people who have literally dedicated decades of their lives, made choices to stay near a teacher or travel hours for training, and made other sacrifices for their training might respond...

As to training in a nice comfortable dojo?  Yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about there.  That's where I'll leave that; you can find the information to expand on it if you look around the site.

(And if you rode through a blizzard with fingerless gloves, you made a dumb choice.  Winter Bicycle Gloves )


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## hoshin1600

marvelous65 said:


> To say I didn't teach myself chess because I didn't go about it blindly is nothing more than ignorant.  Yes, I read chess books.  I read Twenty of them and I took an online course and went to chess clubs regularly.  I also rode my ten speed bicycle 50 miles to and from a chess gathering in a blizzard.  I had nothing on my hands but fingerless bike gloves.  Can you say you've dedicated yourself to martial arts to such an extent?  Or do you just go to a nice comfortable dojo regularly for lessons?



i wasnt going to jump back into this pointless conversation but this statement kinda gets under my skin.

DUDE FOR THE LAST TIME YOUR NOT SPECIAL!!!!
there are people here including myself who have had and live with some serious injuries because of their training and still get up the next day and train. some of us have traveled around the globe to get better training.  you rode your bicycle in the winter LOL  seriously ?  try selling everything you own and leaving everyone you ever knew behind to travel to the other side of the planet to live in a crap hole in order to study a martial art.  if you knew the daily schedual or the sacrifice many of us have given to train... your efforts in dedication are a fricken joke.
oh you read twenty books ?  lol........i have a library of over 500 martial arts books as well as books for supplimental studies like anatomy, physics,stategy, phycology ect ect.  not to mention the countless books i have read but just dont own..and the thing is there are many people here who own and have read more.  you keep spouting off about dedication....dedication is measured over time.  there are so many of us here who have trained day in and day out for 20, 30,40.50 years or more.
so i say to you and your dedication...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahah and lol


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## Steve

marvelous65 said:


> To say I didn't teach myself chess because I didn't go about it blindly is nothing more than ignorant.  Yes, I read chess books.  I read Twenty of them and I took an online course and went to chess clubs regularly.  I also rode my ten speed bicycle 50 miles to and from a chess gathering in a blizzard.  I had nothing on my hands but fingerless bike gloves.  Can you say you've dedicated yourself to martial arts to such an extent?  Or do you just go to a nice comfortable dojo regularly for lessons?


You're digging yourself quite a hole.  If your questions have been answered to your satisfaction, my friendly advice is to stop digging.

I will say, if you put the same time and energy into learning a martial art as you allege to have dedicated to learning chess, you'll be just fine.  You had informal and formal instruction, and the added benefit of staying in shape on your bike.  You acknowledge that you'll also need formal and informal instruction in a martial art even to develop moderate skill.  Makes sense to me.


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## Steve

Danny T said:


> Now that is an intellectual and mature response.
> What say you Steve?


I would recommend that we all take care not to allow his behavior to negatively influence our own.  The correct response for a post that is in violation of the ToS is to use the report function.


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## Dirty Dog

Thread locked pending staff review.


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