# Ninjustu acceptance in the Martail Arts World



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Hello, 
 Ive had my ins and outs on this site... Im here to find the opinions of others on a matter that has concerned me for a while since joining this forum... If we as Ninjutsu Practitioners are to claim that we study an art based on the idea of perseverance in the world that we are born into, is it not ideal to help accept all who strive to learn and grow in an art that is for the common good of all men and women.. 
Simply put, Ive been taught by my instructors that the best method of defense is to simply refuse to fight until it is the final answer... 
I find that Ninjutsu is an art that "Fights" within itself...What do you think we can do as Practitioners to let go of animosity and learn to accept others for the good intentions that they hold... Are we not all of the same earth? Are we not all of the same God? I ask you to please let go of your hate or disrespect and help to bring others into this art with out ridicule or a superior mind set...I have always taught my students to listen to those willing to teach and to approach all martial arts with an open mind. I have great pride in my students for there willingness to learn with out judgment... 
Please let go of your differences and join together as Martial Artists...

Your thoughts are welcome!!


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## elder999

People part of koryu traditions recognized by the Japanese government are generally dismissive of the X-kans. as a koryu tradition.........

People part of the X-kans are generally dismissive of neo-ninjas (you're kind of asking about this category) sometimes even when they have an origin or tie to those very traditions.

Neo-ninjas? _Dismissive of being *dismissed*? _I dunno. Arguing for acceptance, sort of like the X-kan people arguing for acceptance as a koryu (they are) tradition.

"Ninjutsu"-as I understand it- isn't really an "art," as much as a series of stratagems and tactics that really isn't taught much, even in traditions where it exists or has existed. As such, it cannot "fight within itself." The people who have it-or think they do-don't think that many of the others do. 

There is no "fight," though there does tend to be suspicion of those who chose to start their own tradition, for whatever the reason, as well as the piles, and piles, and piles of B.S. and obfuscation that so many people use for their origins.......as well as anyone who uses the very word in the name of their _practice._ The internet, other forums, wikipedia-all have been involved in ridiculous discussions like this one.

In the end, accept the differences, and just follow your path-who really cares what others do?

Then again, I'm *not* a ninja....move along, move along.....seriously, where in Colorado are you? Don Roley is in Colorado-you should find him and ask him your questions.....<_snicker!_>


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Excellent opinion indeed!!

I feel that there is a fight within the Ninjutsu community based on their lineage.. its a my soke is bigger and better than your soke battle, It never helps to knock or push off others, but in the case of acceptance, I feel its an integral part of martial arts to help welcome others and spread a positive attitude in order to keep a tradition alive... 

I have started my own Ryu, However Ive done this so I can bring a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu... Ive received Kudos and Ridicule for this, But I persevere! 

Thanks again for your Post Sir....


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## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Excellent opinion indeed!!
> 
> I feel that there is a fight within the Ninjutsu community based on their lineage.. its a my soke is bigger and better than your soke battle, It never helps to knock or push off others, but in the case of acceptance, I feel its an integral part of martial arts to help welcome others and spread a positive attitude in order to keep a tradition alive...
> 
> I have started my own Ryu, However Ive done this so I can bring a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu... Ive received Kudos and Ridicule for this, But I persevere!
> 
> Thanks again for your Post Sir....



No you are not bringing new acceptance in the world of ninjutsu.
If the things you do are not based on (similar) strategies and concepts that are included in actual ninjutsu, then why do you want to use the ninjutsu name?

Is that an unreasonable question?
You are not Japanese.
Whatever you teach (not you in specific) does not resemble ninjutsu at all, in technical content or in underlying concepts.
You have no knowledge of Japanese culture or language.

So... WHY the ninjutsu name?
And why the 'ryu' name if the way you are doing things does not resemble the ryuha approach AT ALL?


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Simply because I chose to do so sir....

You are very certain that I know nothing yet you have no idea who I am... This is the exact faults I am referring to.. No I'm not Japanese.. However, I am learning the culture and the language in attempts to one day visit and learn first hand the ways of Japanese martial arts culture... 

Your Opinion is of value to me... Thank you sir...


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## elder999

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Simply because I chose to do so sir....
> 
> You are very certain that I know nothing yet you have no idea who I am


 
Oh please.

based on this post:



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> *I have started my own Ryu*, However Ive done this so I can bring a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu... Ive received Kudos and Ridicule for this, But I persevere!
> 
> Thanks again for your Post Sir....


 
We know exactly who you are, *Jon.*



> *Jon Duvall is Co-Owner of B. Maximus Enterprises with Wife and business partner Julie Duvall. Jon has had various martial arts training under military tutors and certified Sensei. Most recently with the Champaign Bujinkan Dojo headed by Shidoshi-Ho Allen Ennen. Jon is also a member of To-Shin-Do Ninjutsu, headed and created by An-shu Stephen K. Hayes. Prior Naval training includes Military MMA, basic hand to hand combat and [FONT=Georgia, serif]small arms training. Jon received recognized professionalism and 9mm awards while enlisted. Prior to military enlistment, Jon independently studied martial arts and has had a strong focus on the art of Ninjutsu. Now, while still active in To-Shin-Do and the Bujinkan, Jon has created the Kumori Ryu to help spread and share the art of peace and all that is "Nin"[/FONT]*[FONT=Georgia, serif]*.*[/FONT]


 

So, why not go ahead and contact _the Unholy_...? :lol: More to the point, with him just down the road someplace, why would anyone serious about "Nin," not go to him instead of you??


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Excellent! 
Thank you for checking out my site and bringing attention to it!! 
I enjoy your posts... 

Blessings to you!


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## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Simply because I chose to do so sir....



Yes. and that is exactly why we will never accept it as 'ninjutsu'
You are living out a fantasy, wehreas we are concerned with history and accuracy.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> You are very certain that I know nothing yet you have no idea who I am... This is the exact faults I am referring to.. No I'm not Japanese.. However, I am learning the culture and the language in attempts to one day visit and learn first hand the ways of Japanese martial arts culture...



Wouldn't it then make sense to learn first and then do something?
You picked your name without consulting with a Japanese person (since it didn't mean what you thought it meant).
You picked the 'ryu' moniker without caring what it means
You picked the ninjutsu moniker without caring about the underlying concepts.

To me it sounds not like you want to learn. A desire to learn implies correctness.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Your Opinion is of value to me... Thank you sir...



No it isn't. If it was, you wouldn't keep arguing that what neo ninjers are doing is 'ninjutsu'.


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## 72ronin

Wow... The assistant instructor "Sensei" has trained for..... wait for it.....Less than one year when awarded rank of sensei!!

I suppose thats how they get students?


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Bruno,

Thank you again for your opinion.. 

Im afraid however that I'm not here to argue but instead to encourage....

Thank you!


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

72ronin said:


> Wow... The assistant instructor "Sensei" has trained for..... wait for it.....Less than one year when awarded rank of sensei!!
> 
> I suppose thats how they get students?



I am very proud of my Student Brad.. He has earned the rank he has received.. He started his training in early 2009, that would be well over one year sir...keep in mind that the Ro-Nin rank is not a Mastery. It is a point where a student leaves his teacher to train and teach on there own.  When I was in Bujinkan our lead student received his Shodon rank after 2.5 years, however our sensei hardly trained once a week, and only in the summer.. I worked with my student as much as possible and we have put all of our effort into our training!

Thank you for your post!


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## elder999

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am very proud of my Student Brad.. He has earned the rank he has received.. He started his training in early 2009, that would be more than one year sir...keep in mind that the Ro-Nin rank is not a rank for everyone. It is a point where a student leaves his master to train and teach on there own. When I was in Bujinkan our lead student received his Shodon rank after 2.5 years, however our sensei hardly trained once a week.. I worked with my student as much as possible and we have put all of our effort into our training!
> 
> Thank you for your post!


 

Well, yeah... 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im not conserned with what you think in the slightest..
> Im not on the earth to make bujinkan students happy..
> I have nothing to hide..* Im a 6th kyu Bujinkan* and I* study To-Shin-Do without r*ank... I don't care about rank... Time is important not rank...
> 
> *3 yrs Studying bujinkan *
> *1 yr Toshindo studies*


 
Still haven't answered why you haven't sought out _the Unholy_.....


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

elder999 said:


> Still haven't answered why you haven't sought out _the Unholy_.....



What are you referring to???
I have no clue what you mean in this post??
Please specify....


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## 72ronin

6th kyu.. Holy Roley..


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Yes 6th Kyu...  

Ive been training for 2 years since I received that rank, however My sensei quit training.. I can not help but learn from his mistake... Ninja is to never quit!

Besides my Ro-Nin certification is through another Association other than Bujinkan... 

Thank you!


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## 72ronin

Well, you seem a very humble fellow and quite honest. Great qualities to have, for that i give you respect.
Good luck with all your endeavors, good training and good health to you.

:cheers:


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## Tez3

What's with the 'Champaign' name? It's close enough to 'champagne' to be a breach of copyright  Yeah, the French have copyright on the name.

I want to be a Ro-nin! sounds very cool, Can I be a lone one or do I have to find 46 others to join me?


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Tez3 said:


> What's with the 'Champaign' name? It's close enough to 'champagne' to be a breach of copyright  Yeah, the French have copyright on the name.
> 
> I want to be a Ro-nin! sounds very cool, Can I be a lone one or do I have to find 46 others to join me?



Champaign is a city in Illinois.. It was 45 minutes from where I resided when I lived in IL... My sensei called us the Champaign Bujinkan...

Im sure your a Ro-Nin already! LOL


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## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Yes 6th Kyu...
> 
> Ive been training for 2 years since I received that rank, however My sensei quit training.. I can not help but learn from his mistake... Ninja is to never quit!
> 
> Besides my Ro-Nin certification is through another Association other than Bujinkan...
> 
> Thank you!



If you are a 6th kyu, you are still a newbie, so why do you think you have enough understanding to form your own organization and even worse, start 'licensing' other people to titles that have nothing to do with proficiency. As an aside, 'Ronin' is a word with a specific pre-existing meaning. another 'fantasy ryu' red flag.

If you no longer belong to the Bujinkan and you have no Bujinkan sensei, then you have no technical basis at all from which to claim you are teaching ninjutsu. You will not get closer to understanding since you have noone correcting your newbie mistakes and teaching you new things. Then you are like an orange belt karate student opening his own dojo and founding his own karate style, calling himself master.

However, if you still belong to the Buinkan...
*You do know that bujinkan members are not supposed to belong to any other organization that teaches ninjutsu or ninpo, do you?*
Hatsumi sensei himself said so, just like the heads of the other kans. We already know that you don't really care what some old guy in Japan says, but since it is HIS organization, you could have the decency not to drag the bujinkan name through the mud.


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## elder999

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> What are you referring to???
> I have no clue what you mean in this post??
> Please specify....


 
I probably shouldn't do this, but......

Colorado Springs Bujinkan




> The teacher
> 
> Don Roley spent almost 15 years studying the Bujinkan in Japan and his total experience in the art is over 20 years. When master instructor Hiroshi Nagase could not make class, it was Don he asked to teach in his place. Many Japanese instructors used him as a translator for class. He is widely acknowledged as an expert in ninjutsu and its history and is currently working on  a translation of an ancient text of ninjutsu. He has worked as a pistol instructor, served in the military and studied a variety of martial arts since 1978. He hates his mother in law.


 
Of course, he hates LARPER ninjers even more than his mother in law......:lol:


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## Cryozombie

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Champaign is a city in Illinois.. It was 45 minutes from where I resided when I lived in IL... My sensei called us the Champaign Bujinkan...
> 
> Im sure your a Ro-Nin already! LOL



Funny, I thought I knew just about all the Illinois Shidoshi.  Who did your Shidoshi-ho train under?


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> What's with the 'Champaign' name? It's close enough to 'champagne' to be a breach of copyright  Yeah, the French have copyright on the name.


 

_Champaign_ is the French word for " an open level place," or a _plain_.


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## Tanaka

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Hello,
> Ive had my ins and outs on this site... Im here to find the opinions of others on a matter that has concerned me for a while since joining this forum... If we as Ninjutsu Practitioners are to claim that we study an art based on the idea of perseverance in the world that we are born into, is it not ideal to help accept all who strive to learn and grow in an art that is for the common good of all men and women..
> Simply put, Ive been taught by my instructors that the best method of defense is to simply refuse to fight until it is the final answer...
> I find that Ninjutsu is an art that "Fights" within itself...What do you think we can do as Practitioners to let go of animosity and learn to accept others for the good intentions that they hold... Are we not all of the same earth? Are we not all of the same God? I ask you to please let go of your hate or disrespect and help to bring others into this art with out ridicule or a superior mind set...I have always taught my students to listen to those willing to teach and to approach all martial arts with an open mind. I have great pride in my students for there willingness to learn with out judgment...
> Please let go of your differences and join together as Martial Artists...
> 
> Your thoughts are welcome!!



Hello,

You are in a serious misunderstanding. There isn't a "fight" within Ninjutsu. There is however... People who are tired of seeing people EXPLOIT Ninjutsu due to it being exotic to western people. They have no desire to have actual lineage. No desire to go about it the RIGHT way. Instead they become frauds and damage the concept even MORE in peoples eyes. It's disrespectful to people who have worked hard to learn this concept/philosophy and to preserve the actuality of this concept and philosophy. Only to have people like YOU turn it into fantasy. Exploiting all kinds of concepts/terms incorrectly obviously for their exotic and "cool" appeal to Westerners. Especially those who just get done watching Sho Kosugi movie, and now want to be a Ninja. If you went ahead and did things correctly you wouldn't be experiencing what you are experience.  People tend to give respect where respect is due. Especially on this forum. But COME ON... you come on here and disrespect what people have worked hard to preserve and abuse Japanese language and respected concepts. Yet expect to be treated with open arms of encouragement? 

You've done what ANY practitioner from any art would criticize. Starting an art when you're only a beginner and have no concept or understanding of the principles of the art you're trying to pass on.


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## Bill Mattocks

elder999 said:


> _Champaign_ is the French word for " an open level place," or a _plain_.



That would be all of Illinois, which is flat as a pancake.  And I should know, I lived in the Peoria/Pekin/Morton area until the age of 12, when my parents moved us to Colorado.  Hmmm. Similarities!

No cornfield ninjers that I'm aware of.  Of course, I guess I would not be able to see them if they were there.


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## oaktree

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Hello,
> Ive had my ins and outs on this site... Im here to find the opinions of others on a matter that has concerned me for a while since joining this forum... If we as Ninjutsu Practitioners are to claim that we study an art based on the idea of perseverance in the world that we are born into, is it not ideal to help accept all who strive to learn and grow in an art that is for the common good of all men and women..
> Simply put, Ive been taught by my instructors that the best method of defense is to simply refuse to fight until it is the final answer...
> I find that Ninjutsu is an art that "Fights" within itself...What do you think we can do as Practitioners to let go of animosity and learn to accept others for the good intentions that they hold... Are we not all of the same earth? Are we not all of the same God? I ask you to please let go of your hate or disrespect and help to bring others into this art with out ridicule or a superior mind set...I have always taught my students to listen to those willing to teach and to approach all martial arts with an open mind. I have great pride in my students for there willingness to learn with out judgment...
> Please let go of your differences and join together as Martial Artists...
> 
> Your thoughts are welcome!!


 
Hi Kumori 
 No one from what I have read on the threads has animosity towards you.
People post vaild questions to you and try to correct things that are seen uncorrect.

My reading of your post senses someone who has a strong dedication to this art but may be going about it in a direction that may not be the best method.

It is unheard of for one to go from 6kyu to Menkyo Kaiden maybe an honorary rank or what ever the most plausible scenerio though, unlikely.

The fighting is not so much Xkan vs Xkan but between Xkan and those who wish to consider themselves a reconstruction of Ninjutsu.

Now if people are happy doing this same as LARPERS great enjoy yourself.
Historically the connection between this and authentic Ninjutsu is invaild.
The debates are when such tries to establish itself as a real legit Ninjutsu school.

I guess in other words it is like comparing a 440 stainless steel katana with one that is hand forged by a swordsmith lineage both are swords no doubt about it but only one has a transmission and the quality is known.

A 6kyu rank in any art is still someone trying to learn fundamentals.
The term Shodan is beginner level or one who has the body ready to be able to learn.
As I have spoken before putting Ryu means you are the head of that particular Ryu doing so means in Martial concept that your skills are at Menkyo Kaiden level. 

I have no agenda either way Kumori I can only state facts and how you may be perceived. I am afraid others in your dealings with people concerning this name may not be as gentle and honest with you some cases here on Martial Talk are brutally honest well some people are this way I suppose.

Try not to takes things so hard, examine what people are saying and good luck.


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## Chris Parker

Hi, I'm a little grumpy at present, so bear with me everyone....



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Hello,
> Ive had my ins and outs on this site... Im here to find the opinions of others on a matter that has concerned me for a while since joining this forum... If we as Ninjutsu Practitioners are to claim that we study an art based on the idea of perseverance in the world that we are born into, is it not ideal to help accept all who strive to learn and grow in an art that is for the common good of all men and women..


 
Ninjutsu is not based on the idea of perserverance, that is the literal translation of the Shinobu kanji, but it takes on myriad reasons when used in context. You're taking this way too literally. It's like thinking that all Jujutsu people are "gentle" in the way they do things....

In terms of helping all who strive to learn and grow, you have been given plenty of information, education, and advice, and have refused to take any on board. So how about we start with whether or not you are willing or even wanting to learn and grow, all the evidence you have shown indicates no. In your position, the way to learn and grow is simple: Get a teacher. Until you do that, you're playing dress-ups. Especially with who you're associating with... but we'll get to that.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Simply put, Ive been taught by my instructors that the best method of defense is to simply refuse to fight until it is the final answer...
> I find that Ninjutsu is an art that "Fights" within itself...What do you think we can do as Practitioners to let go of animosity and learn to accept others for the good intentions that they hold... Are we not all of the same earth? Are we not all of the same God? I ask you to please let go of your hate or disrespect and help to bring others into this art with out ridicule or a superior mind set...I have always taught my students to listen to those willing to teach and to approach all martial arts with an open mind. I have great pride in my students for there willingness to learn with out judgment...
> Please let go of your differences and join together as Martial Artists...
> 
> Your thoughts are welcome!!


 
You are either taking your instructors idealistic words too literally again, or you don't understand what they were saying. In terms of the rest of this paragraph, there is far less animosity here than on pretty much all other forums in the Ninjutsu sections. But you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt that already, right?

There is no superior mindset here. There is simply the understanding of what the art actually is, rather than just accepting anyone who decides that after watching a Sho Kosugi marathon that they are a ninja.... but you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt from that, right?

Please let go of your misunderstandings and learn from them... oh, and I'd suggest losing the literal idealistic take on what you think a "true martial artist" is, as it's like someone deciding what all the police should do and be like after watching Hawaii Vice.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Excellent opinion indeed!!
> 
> I feel that there is a fight within the Ninjutsu community based on their lineage.. its a my soke is bigger and better than your soke battle, It never helps to knock or push off others, but in the case of acceptance, I feel its an integral part of martial arts to help welcome others and spread a positive attitude in order to keep a tradition alive...
> 
> I have started my own Ryu, However Ive done this so I can bring a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu... Ive received Kudos and Ridicule for this, But I persevere!
> 
> Thanks again for your Post Sir....


 
No, that's not what it's like at all. For one thing, there are only two Soke, one of which was a former student of the other. Both are heads of their own organisations (the Bujinkan and the Genbukan). Anyone else claiming to be a Soke of a Ninjutsu system (not refering to Koryu traditions that include Ninjutsu in their teachings, such as Katori Shinto Ryu) frankly is not. End of story.

To be completely frank here, you have no idea whatsoever what it takes to keep a tradition alive, or what that actually entails. The schools that are most interested in that tend to have very stringent entry requirements, and are more restrictive in who gets to join than more modern schools (or anything else, really!), to the point where a number only have a handful of students. These are the Koryu traditions, by the way.

You have not formed your own Ryu, as you show no understanding of what a Ryu is. You have put together a few things that you remember from an incredibly short time training. Come back in 20 years when you have some experience, okay? Oh, and as for you bringing a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu? What on earth are you on about there? You have no influence on the acceptance of the art, and if you wanted to actually do that, join a legit organisation, train hard, get experienced and skilled, and use that to garner greater acceptance. What you are doing will only lead to more ridicule of the art. Seriously.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Simply because I chose to do so sir....
> 
> You are very certain that I know nothing yet you have no idea who I am... This is the exact faults I am referring to.. No I'm not Japanese.. However, I am learning the culture and the language in attempts to one day visit and learn first hand the ways of Japanese martial arts culture...
> 
> Your Opinion is of value to me... Thank you sir...


 
You choose to misuse terminology, claim to have created something with basically no basis whatsoever, but because you choose to, it's fine? Doesn't quite work that way...

Oh, and we have the idea that you have no understanding, knowledge, experience etc of the art, the culture, the language and so on from your posts here and your website (by the way, on that topic, Elder was not linking your site to provide any advertising for it, it was pointing out how bizarre your claims are, so not sure why you thanked him for that....). Your continual use of the term "Uke" for any training member (even after I explained how inaccurate that was), your mention of "being a student of Nin", and the issues that Bruno mentioned are just part of it.

But I'm with Bruno. Our opinions are not of value to you. These posts are mainly so others have a good understanding of where you actually are coming from.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am very proud of my Student Brad.. He has earned the rank he has received.. He started his training in early 2009, that would be well over one year sir...keep in mind that the Ro-Nin rank is not a Mastery. It is a point where a student leaves his teacher to train and teach on there own. When I was in Bujinkan our lead student received his Shodon rank after 2.5 years, however our sensei hardly trained once a week, and only in the summer.. I worked with my student as much as possible and we have put all of our effort into our training!
> 
> Thank you for your post!


 
You may be proud of him, but to the rest of us this is rather ridiculous. For many reasons. You are years away from being a teacher yourself, let alone any "student" of yours.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Yes 6th Kyu...
> 
> Ive been training for 2 years since I received that rank, however My sensei quit training.. I can not help but learn from his mistake... Ninja is to never quit!
> 
> Besides my Ro-Nin certification is through another Association other than Bujinkan...
> 
> Thank you!


 
Okay, the "other organisation" there.... here we go: http://ninjabob.webs.com/society.htm "Ninja Bob"?

This does nothing for you, you know.

As far as the rest of this post, if your sensei quit, he probably had his reasons, and it may well have not been a mistake for him. And if you want to continue, the answer is simple: Get a teacher! End of story. The rest of your approach is frankly not going to garner any respect for Ninjutsu, or from the actual Ninjutsu community for you. Going to a new instructor and actually learning and training, on the other hand, will.

Your choice.


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## Archangel M

A metaphor from my experience (as I have no "Ninja" experience) are the guys who buy a 2K Ar15 and a plate carrier with all the pouches and "blood type patches". Top this costume off with an American flag ball cap, "tactical pants" and thigh holster. Then they take a few carbine courses and then go on about how they are "gunfighters", warriors, better shots and better trained than a SWAT cop..yadda yadda yadda.

"The Way" is deeper than technique, a weapon or a costume.


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## Aiki Lee

Hey Kumori,

This seems an awful lot like a thread that existed a few years ago. You may want to look up "Kung Maky Ung Ninjitisu" in the threads.

Personally, I have no problem with people breaking away from organizations to form there own. However they must be qualified. To teach ninjutsu on your own, in your own organization I believe you must first have been a liscensed teacher in those arts. One cannot assume they know enough to teach without having first been recoginzed by his teachers as ready to take that responsibility.

You do seem very respectful, and I don't think you are a troll but people on these forums may treat you as one because this is not the first time these kinds of subjects have been brought up and you are not the first to do it.

If you have enough experience to teach I suggest teaching what you know best, not what seems most interesting to you. If it is interesting then train in it, but don't teach it until others recognize your understanding and ask you for it.

About the "in-fighting":

Usually I don't see much problems between the genbukan, bujinkan, jinekan. They may have their differences and disagreements but I don't think any of those groups tlls the other that they are not practicing traditional ninja and samurai arts.

There are other groups that are legitmate that are lesser known (legitimacy usually being determined by having once been connected to the xkans), but their legitmacy needs to be proven and trced back to qualified teachers.

The dubious groups that I'm sure you don't want to be associated with are usually treated with disdain because they either make up a lineage that doesn't exist, or they are grossly under qualified to be teaching without supervision from a qualified ninjutsu instructor.

I have no idea what kumori ryu is or who u really are, so I will check out your site.

Also if you do talk to Don Roley keep this in mind. From my experience with him on this forum he is a bit rough around the edges and very opinionated (but hey who isn't?), however he does tend to know what he is talking about when it comes to lineage and history.


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## nitflegal

Chris Parker said:


> You may be proud of him, but to the rest of us this is rather ridiculous. For many reasons. You are years away from being a teacher yourself, let alone any "student" of yours.


 
Just to echo, not that it ever actually works.  Real world example.  Way back in '93 or so I received my shodan in Toyama ryu from a lovely Japanese gentleman who passed away shortly thereafter (hopefully, not from shame at what numbnuts me was going to do next).  I'd spent 4 years studying with him and felt that I had a solid understanding of the nuances of the cirriculum.  Started a study group with some friends so I'd have someone to bang around with and it rather quickly became about 2 months of me "teaching" them kenjutsu.  Thank God I had an epiphany after those 2 months where I realized I was not only teaching at nowhere near the level of my sensei but they were actually losing ground as I couldn't adapt what I had learned to their physiology.  I was, I think, a diligent student and had often been able to help more green students with suggestions and advice.  However, I was nowhere near ready to operate without a net.  What I would have accomplished had I continued would not only be to teach my "students" poor skills, bad taijutsu, and bad habits but I'd have actually made it harder for them to learn good kenjutsu when they finally found a qualified teacher.  

THAT is what an unqualified teacher does; they steal time and ability from their students.  Unless you are truly a martial arts prodigy you simply cannot have the skills to adequately teach people without making them both clumsy and simplified in the timee you've descrribed.  Even if you are said prodigy you will not have had the time to actually learn the techniques from the Bujinkan or any school really, so the best one can hope for is that you will translate the feeling of what you've learned into made up techniques that have never been tested in a real confrontation.   To be blunt, there are already far too many teachers in the Bujinkan who are doing this, abusing their students with the best of intentions.  Which makes the qualified teachers tend to get lost in the morass as most students have no clue how to diffferentiate a goodd teacher from a bad one.

This will sound harsh and I apologize for not being able to think up a better way to express myself.  You are not ready to teach.  You will create bad habits and blind spots in your student.  You will do real damage to his martial art abilities.  Sadly, the harder he practices the more damage that will be created and the longer it will take to repair that damage.  An awful lot of people in martial arts and specifically in the Bujinkan have been damaged by these exact same best intentions.

I've studied several martial arts over the last 32 years or so.  I chose the Bujinkan because of the sheer depth and breadth of the skills it offers.  You will not do more than scratch the surface in the time you've studied even with the best of teachers.  Don't let yourself become the sensei whose dojo I once visited who explained that he couldn't perform ganseki nage on me because I was "too tall".  Please.

Matt


----------



## Bruno@MT

nitflegal said:


> I was, I think, a diligent student and had often been able to help more green students with suggestions and advice.  However, I was nowhere near ready to operate without a net.  What I would have accomplished had I continued would not only be to teach my "students" poor skills, bad taijutsu, and bad habits but I'd have actually made it harder for them to learn good kenjutsu when they finally found a qualified teacher.



+1.

I am in the same situation with 2 years of training. from time to time, it happens that my sensei cannot make it to class. For example if he is off to a taikai, or in bed with he flue. Rare occasions but they happen.

I (or the sempai who is at the same level as I am) can take over the class, make sure everybody gets a good workout, and help them with their curriculum since they are at least 1 grade lower than I am. And since we only get new members sparingly, eveyrbody sort of knows what is expected. My primary function on those occasions is just to organize the class structure.

That does not mean that I am anywhere near qualified to teach class on a regular basis. I still discover new depths to the entire collection of things that I've already learned, and realize I was still making a lot of errors. If I had to teach, it would probably end with noone really making any progress in the end, and a lot of well intentioned stumbling about.


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## Chris Parker

Hell, I'd been training for 12+ years before I started teaching regularly... and even then it was under strict supervision to make sure I didn't screw up too badly (only happened a few times... I'm almost getting the hang of it now..... I hope.....)


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## Tez3

elder999 said:


> _Champaign_ is the French word for " an open level place," or a _plain_.


 
Yep, where they make damn fine fizzy wine, another English invention.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Excellent posts everyone... 

I appreciate everyone's input and look forward to reading more... 
As for my school, credentials, teachers, Ect.. Im not here to discuss that in this post.. Im simply starting a discussion that I'm interested in... Ive found that there are many who love Ninjutsu and Many that love there own school and not the teachings of others that's fine.. Im not going to get involved with throwing around my opinion about your schools or your lineage.. 

As for me continuing learning from instructors, I am. I never said that Ive quit learning.. So please I insist that we keep to the topic at hand and part from starting another argument about "What is Ninjutsu".. 

Thank you


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## Bujingodai

I'm such a huge fan of accepting societies and people that refer to themselves as Ninja.
So to make the record straight, You had 4 yrs of training...now to form a ryu. However during this time period you have spawned a Sensei, who is now moved from you to teach on his own, 2 yrs of training give or take so you were teaching him to at 2 yrs of experience, now at 2 years he is doing his own thing. Any chance he may start his own ryu?

Just so I may ask, as I am also not a Kan. What did you have to show the society, black scorpion. In order for them to recognize you as a ryu? Not to mention the societies founder and their qualification.

You have very zen like answers, that takes practice.
Are you an older gentleman?


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## Bill Mattocks

Bujingodai said:


> You have very zen like answers, that takes practice.
> Are you an older gentleman?



These are not the jedi you are looking for.  Move along.


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## Archangel M

Move along...nothing to see here.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Bujingodai,

No sir Im not terribly old, lol 27 to be honest, I was a 3 yr student before I accepted my Student Brad.. He was my first Real student of the Ryu... Him and I worked together to refine his skill and work towards taking over the Illinois chapter of the Ryu...  

As for the Black Scorpion Society, I was interested in there motives as a Ninjutsu Group.. They have the intent on unifying all martial artists and ninjutsu.. I appreciate where they stand and I admire Bobby Calvert for his efforts in the martial arts world... Ive found that any society that is accepting of all, is a society that I want to be a part of... There are groups that select and choose there students to keep a certain level of seclusion in there Dojo and Im perfectly fine with that, However when students and or teachers of another group start to tear other Dojo and schools apart it creates a wall between us that once built is very hard to knock down.. Ive found a federation to join that feels the same way I do about martial arts and Ninjutsu, and for that I am very grateful, I hope that this thread can allow people to stand up for what they believe is good and pure in intent, I understand the "true" Ninjutsu practitioners (I.E. x-kans) are very skeptical about those that have broken away or have started a training group to honor the Ninja spirit, However I hope that they see that it can come across as a condescending attitude towards those that are simply looking for a fun and entertaining way to stay in shape and learn great defensive skills.. 

Im very sure that Chris, Bruno and the others in hand are very good at what they do and I respect them for giving there opinoins, Infact I have learned a few things and have corrected a few of my mistakes based on there posts. BUT, I do not appreciate the tone in wich some have delivered their opinion of others... 

I try to be open minded and accept others in the arts, I Hope that one day these posts can be viewed as the stepping stones to acceptance of all that love Ninjutsu!!!

Thank you and good luck to you all.... That means you too Mr. Parker!! lol


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Bruno@MT said:


> *You do know that bujinkan members are not supposed to belong to any other organization that teaches ninjutsu or ninpo, do you?*



Oh don't worry yourself Bruno@MT 
I have officially left the Bujinkan for good... 
I still read and seek out the teachings however... 
I am not looking to receive any rank or certification from the Bujinkan whatsoever.

Im not interested in rank only experience!!

Thank you for your posts!


----------



## Steve

I don't know about fighting within the ninjutsu community, but threads like this don't reflect well from my perspective on the outside looking in.  Threads like this are embarrassing to even read.  My hat is off to you guys for keeping a level head and managing to remain polite.  I wouldn't have it in me to do the same if an equivalent thread popped up from someone pretending to start some kind of make believe flavor of brazilian jiu jitsu.


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## Supra Vijai

Chris Parker said:


> Hell, I'd been training for 12+ years before I started teaching regularly... and even then it was under strict supervision to make sure I didn't screw up too badly (only happened a few times... I'm almost getting the hang of it now..... I hope.....)


 
Almost!  

*puts on whiny voice* Senseeeeeei...... I'm 24, turning 25 in about a week and have been a student for about 3 years now... and I can correct the new kids on stuff so you don't have to... Can I start my own Ryu yet? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease???? *bats eyelashes* I've got my $20 ready to send to the 'Society' and everything!


----------



## Aiki Lee

You said it steve.

Kumori to respond to your OP, I have a few thoughts.

Ninjutsu appears to not be accepted because of so many misleading idiots out there like Kim, Dux, and Dallas (rest his soul) using the "ninja" name. All ninjutsu practitioners, legitimate or otherwise are lumped in with them. Many of us who have trained for years in this stuff often say we practice traditional japanese martial arts or jujutsu to avoid the rolling eyes of people who don't know how to separate us from the likes of the Naruto wannabes.

I'm afraid that while these people exist ninjutsu will not really be accepted while there are groups out there that buy so heavily into the legends that they end up acting out some form of delusional fantasy as opposed to training for actual combat.

For those who are actually skilled but have no real knowledge of ninjutsu, people see that as a marketing ploy used by dishonest teachers.

I don't mean disrespect. I honestly, honestly don't. But you are not helping. You do not seem to have the experience necessary to teach ninjutsu. You could be a very talented martial artist with exceptional skill, but that does not make you a ninja.

You list some training in the Booj and TSD, but based on your time it would be like me training 3 years in karate and deciding to create my own karate system. An outsider who knew nothing of karate but looking for a school could choose between my "new karate" or say an experienced Goju ryu teacher without knowing there is a difference. If that person chose me I would no doubt teach them a weak watered down version of whatever karate I knew and have them think that karate is worthless.

This is essentially what neo-ninjas do. No other martial art deals with this the same way ninjutsu has to and it is not fair for ninjutsu to be sullied simply because it has been allowed to go on for so long.

I have 8years in my system, Chris said he had 12+ (I think?), others have more. I have just scratched the surface of martial arts and would never dream of creating my own system and saying it was on par of those who came before. Let me master the training my art offers me now and then we will see.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Point well taken,

In my small community where I lived there was no Ninjutsu Dojo around I traveled to Champaign every weekend to train and learn... Then after class continued to train and learn from the lead student Ben. When My Sensei Allan Quit training I had asked him about teaching, He stated anyone can teach but only shodan and higher can rank Bujinkan, Im sorry that I am not to your standards of Ninjutsu, However I was open  and honest to my Sensei about my intent and there was no conflict... At that time I decided to venture into my own studies and create the Kumori Ryu, I did this to help spread an art in an area where there was nothing of the like... Now there is a school dedicated to helping others put there foot into the door and study ninjutsu... Ive told my students that they can join any other school or organization if they wish, but they stick with me... Ive dedicated my life to helping them learn and grow as martial artists..  Oh and Don't worry Im not offended.. Nor will I be over matters such as this.. I  know my capabilities and my students know what we are capable of as a  family.. 

Thank you for your posts
Take care and the best of luck to you sir!!!


----------



## Tanaka

I still don't think "Jon" will realize how nice/polite everyone here has been to him, until he goes to another forum like MAP and say the things hes said here.


----------



## Supra Vijai

Tanaka said:


> I still don't think "Jon" will realize how nice/polite everyone here has been to him, until he goes to another forum like MAP and say the things hes said here.


 
He can't do that. Seems if you have accounts on MAP etc as well as here you're going to be considered a Troll


----------



## Bujingodai

You're probably right.
But I'm no troll. And I'm one of the mods for the Ninjutsu forum there. What quantifies that?


----------



## Aiki Lee

There is something admirable about wanting to share such a beautiful art, but  one should have a firm grasp of it first. I would be interested in seeing some videos of your training.

If you are concerned some people may jump on you or something you can private message me.

I don't think the majority of people on this forum are interested in making fun of you. They may not be happy with your wish to have your own system, but if it works it works. I just hope what you teach is effective and not building false confidence in your students.

Such an attitude can be disasterous.


----------



## Supra Vijai

I'm just the messenger...



ronin7411 said:


> you're going to run into the same people there telling you the same thing and doing the same activities here which is also called trolling


----------



## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Excellent posts everyone...
> 
> I appreciate everyone's input and look forward to reading more...
> As for my school, credentials, teachers, Ect.. Im not here to discuss that in this post.. Im simply starting a discussion that I'm interested in... Ive found that there are many who love Ninjutsu and Many that love there own school and not the teachings of others that's fine.. Im not going to get involved with throwing around my opinion about your schools or your lineage..
> 
> As for me continuing learning from instructors, I am. I never said that Ive quit learning.. So *please I insist that we keep to the topic at hand* and part from starting another argument about "What is Ninjutsu"..
> 
> Thank you


 
You understand, of course, that when you start a discussion of Ninjutsu then your understanding of what Ninjutsu is will come into it? And if you don't have a real understanding of what it is in the first place, then the discussion will need to clarify that in the first place. But, as you insist, what exactly is the topic you presented? Let's look at your OP:



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Hello,
> Ive had my ins and outs on this site... Im here to find the opinions of others on a matter that has concerned me for a while since joining this forum... If we as Ninjutsu Practitioners are to claim that we study an art based on the idea of perseverance in the world that we are born into, is it not ideal to help accept all who strive to learn and grow in an art that is for the common good of all men and women..
> Simply put, Ive been taught by my instructors that the best method of defense is to simply refuse to fight until it is the final answer...
> I find that Ninjutsu is an art that "Fights" within itself...What do you think we can do as Practitioners to let go of animosity and learn to accept others for the good intentions that they hold... Are we not all of the same earth? Are we not all of the same God? I ask you to please let go of your hate or disrespect and help to bring others into this art with out ridicule or a superior mind set...I have always taught my students to listen to those willing to teach and to approach all martial arts with an open mind. I have great pride in my students for there willingness to learn with out judgment...
> Please let go of your differences and join together as Martial Artists...
> 
> Your thoughts are welcome!!


 
You start off by implying problems with the people here, mainly due to the fact that we corrected you. You also seem to imply that, as we didn't immediately give you big pats on the back and "atta-boys" for starting your own "ryu" and teaming up with someone like "Ninja Bob" (I'll get to this.... you may want to reconsider things afterwards) that there are issues with Ninjutsu being accepted. Not if it actually is Ninjutsu, would be the point there.

You then show a lack of understanding of the name itself, taking a purely literal translation without understanding the context of the term, and dress it up in an unrealistic idealism. You then continue to claim that Ninjutsu fights within itself.... which everyone else has said is not the case, the legitimate, authentic Ninjutsu community is rather sick of people misappropriating their name as a marketing tool with no basis whatsoever, dragging the reputation of the art further and further down. Again, it comes down to if it actually is Ninjutsu or not.

You then end with a rather odd "are we not all of the same Earth? Are we not all of the same God?" (er, no we're not, actually. You may want to bring that aspect of reality into your thinking, by the way....) peace-on-earth, complete tolerance of everything no matter how much it harms what you love ideal. This does not work at all, so no.

You say that you have always taught your students (?) to listen to those willing to teach.... so why did you almost immediately start saying you would ignore anything I said, especially when what I was doing more than anything else was educating and correcting you?

But really, you have presented an unrealistic ideal, which really doesn't invite any conversation or discussion other than explainations as to why we don't just accept anyone in black hoods and pajamas swinging nunchuks and calling themselves "ninja"... so I'm not sure what you think this discussion was meant to be.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Bujingodai,
> 
> No sir Im not terribly old, lol 27 to be honest, I was a 3 yr student before I accepted my Student Brad.. He was my first Real student of the Ryu... Him and I worked together to refine his skill and work towards taking over the Illinois chapter of the Ryu...
> 
> As for the Black Scorpion Society, I was interested in there motives as a Ninjutsu Group.. They have the intent on unifying all martial artists and ninjutsu.. I appreciate where they stand and I admire Bobby Calvert for his efforts in the martial arts world... Ive found that any society that is accepting of all, is a society that I want to be a part of... There are groups that select and choose there students to keep a certain level of seclusion in there Dojo and Im perfectly fine with that, However when students and or teachers of another group start to tear other Dojo and schools apart it creates a wall between us that once built is very hard to knock down.. Ive found a federation to join that feels the same way I do about martial arts and Ninjutsu, and for that I am very grateful, I hope that this thread can allow people to stand up for what they believe is good and pure in intent, I understand the "true" Ninjutsu practitioners (I.E. x-kans) are very skeptical about those that have broken away or have started a training group to honor the Ninja spirit, However I hope that they see that it can come across as a condescending attitude towards those that are simply looking for a fun and entertaining way to stay in shape and learn great defensive skills..
> 
> Im very sure that Chris, Bruno and the others in hand are very good at what they do and I respect them for giving there opinoins, Infact I have learned a few things and have corrected a few of my mistakes based on there posts. BUT, I do not appreciate the tone in wich some have delivered their opinion of others...
> 
> I try to be open minded and accept others in the arts, I Hope that one day these posts can be viewed as the stepping stones to acceptance of all that love Ninjutsu!!!
> 
> Thank you and good luck to you all.... That means you too Mr. Parker!! lol


 
Okay, I'm going to be blunt. The Black Scorpion group are ridiculous. The ideals that you like are not present in reality, as the rules for the legit organisations don't allow them to be a part of it.... not that many would want to. There is no benefit whatsoever of being a part of this group. They have nothing even close to legit training (seriously, the number of huge issues with the photos pages alone were scary!), and are far from "good and pure in intent". They are what is refered to as "LARPers", which is Live Action Role Players... basically kids playing dress-ups. They say that they accept everyone as they have nothing really to offer themselves, and it's a way to get an ego boost. In order to grow as a practitioner, get a real teacher.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Oh don't worry yourself Bruno@MT
> I have officially left the Bujinkan for good...
> I still read and seek out the teachings however...
> I am not looking to receive any rank or certification from the Bujinkan whatsoever.
> 
> Im not interested in rank only experience!!
> 
> Thank you for your posts!


 
Reading and videos are not training or learning without a teacher to clarify what you are going through. And if you are interested in experience, then get some. And that means getting a real teacher (again) and taking the time to learn and train properly. Without that, you have no experience to gain.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Point well taken,
> 
> In my small community where I lived there was no Ninjutsu Dojo around I traveled to Champaign every weekend to train and learn... Then after class continued to train and learn from the lead student Ben. When My Sensei Allan Quit training I had asked him about teaching, He stated anyone can teach but only shodan and higher can rank Bujinkan, Im sorry that I am not to your standards of Ninjutsu, However I was open and honest to my Sensei about my intent and there was no conflict... At that time I decided to venture into my own studies and create the Kumori Ryu, I did this to help spread an art in an area where there was nothing of the like... Now there is a school dedicated to helping others put there foot into the door and study ninjutsu... Ive told my students that they can join any other school or organization if they wish, but they stick with me... Ive dedicated my life to helping them learn and grow as martial artists.. Oh and Don't worry Im not offended.. Nor will I be over matters such as this.. I know my capabilities and my students know what we are capable of as a family..
> 
> Thank you for your posts
> Take care and the best of luck to you sir!!!


 
In the Bujinkan, only a 5th Dan and higher (with a Shidoshi licence) can teach and rank. Someone Shodan - 4th Dan can be a Shidoshi-ho (junior instructor) under the guidance of a Shidoshi (which is why Cryo asked who the Shidoshi that was guiding Allen was), so it sounds like Allen was either unsure or incorrect in his statements there as well. And it's got nothing to do with you not making "our standard" for Ninjutsu, it's more that you show again and again that your knowledge and understanding is very lacking, to say the least, which is, more than anything else, a reflection of your minimalist experience.

But to take it another way, can you tell us about Kumori Ryu? What makes it a Ryu? What are the base concepts? What is the structure like? What are the mechanics like? What differentiates it from the Bujinkan or Toshindo? If you can't answer these, it is no Ryu, you have not founded anything other than a training group that you have called a Ryu... and a training group, under the guidance of an instructor, is something we would absolutely support. So I'd personally be far more supportive of you saying that you were running a training group for Toshindo under your current instructor (you did say you were still training in Toshindo, yeah?), the creation of a Ryu is frankly ridiculous.



Himura Kenshin said:


> I have 8years in my system, Chris said he had 12+ (I think?), others have more. I have just scratched the surface of martial arts and would never dream of creating my own system and saying it was on par of those who came before. Let me master the training my art offers me now and then we will see.


 
And just to clarify, I had been training for over 12 years before I started teaching regularly. I've now been training for coming up to 18 years, with a few years of Karate and Tae-Kwon Do before that, and a number of other arts during as well.

That does bring me to another point, though.

Jon, I've alluded to any problems you may have interpretting the way things are written on the screen, and I notice that you have been "Thanking" a number of posts that are basically telling you that what you are doing is far from ideal, or even advised. SteveBJJ actually pointed out that if someone had come along to the BJJ forum and made similar claims, they would have been ripped to pieces. You thanked him for that. I pointed out that I trained for well over a decade before starting to teach, as opposed to your couple of years (a fair bit of which without your instructor, if I'm reading your posts correctly) and low rank, and you thanked me. That pattern is rather prevalent, so again I'm going to ask if there is anything that we should know about that would help us communicate with you better. You seem to be misinterpretting things a fair bit, and seeing things that no-one else is (other than Ronin7411 who just doesn't like the fact that we pointed out the lack of credibility in his approach, amongst other things).


----------



## Bruno@MT

stevebjj said:


> I don't know about fighting within the ninjutsu community, but threads like this don't reflect well from my perspective on the outside looking in.  Threads like this are embarrassing to even read.  My hat is off to you guys for keeping a level head and managing to remain polite.  I wouldn't have it in me to do the same if an equivalent thread popped up from someone pretending to start some kind of make believe flavor of brazilian jiu jitsu.



I agree that this sort of stuff is annoying.

And the easiest solution is probably to look away and stop responding. But then it looks as if we accept the people who make us look ridiculous by associating their childhood fantasy with our martial art. I do not want to sing kum-ba-yah over this issue. In my experience, the people who cry the hardest for 'living together peacefully' and 'having respect for all' are the ones who do not have any actual autenticity.

The irony is that he just thanked this post in which you called his system a make believe art


----------



## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> and a training group, under the guidance of an instructor, is something we would absolutely support. So I'd personally be far more supportive of you saying that you were running a training group for Toshindo under your current instructor (you did say you were still training in Toshindo, yeah?), the creation of a Ryu is frankly ridiculous.



This is something I would like to expand on.
Study groups under the supervision of a kyu level student are perfectly acceptable if there is supervision from a qualified instructor. Our own group is still like that. My sensei had been training intensively under a master level sensei for 5 years or so when he started our group.

At that time the difference in experience was wide enough that he could teach us and his imperfections were small enough that it did not affect us (who did not even know how to stand in kamae). The master level sensei teaches class once per month, mostly to check up on us and make correcttions where necessary. In the meantime, my sensei still trains twice per week with that instructor to increase his own skill and understanding.

This is how training groups are supposed to work, and indeed this concept is used not only in the x-kans but also in koryu organizations, modern jujutsu systems, etc.

The entire concept hinges on masterlevel supervision to keep the entire thing heading in the correct direction. Without that, the training group is just a bunch of people making things up as they go along. The blind leading the blind.


----------



## Chris Parker

Himura Kenshin said:


> There is something admirable about wanting to share such a beautiful art, but one should have a firm grasp of it first. I would be interested in seeing some videos of your training.
> 
> If you are concerned some people may jump on you or something you can private message me.
> 
> I don't think the majority of people on this forum are interested in making fun of you. They may not be happy with your wish to have your own system,* but if it works it works.* I just hope what you teach is effective and not building false confidence in your students.
> 
> Such an attitude can be disasterous.


 
Hi Himura,

We've been discussing Koryu systems via PM, so you will probably have an idea where I'm coming from here... that said..... 

"If it works it works" is completely irrelevant. Whether or not something is "effective" doesn't matter when you are dealing with historical systems, legitimacy, legacy, lineage, historical veracity, proven transmission, that is what matters. So to create a new Ninjutsu Ryu (impossible, by the way) it is purely to do with the historical links it has. For the record, the Jizaikan, Toshindo, my schools, and so on are good examples. None of them are new Ninjutsu systems, they are not new Ryu, they are new organisations continuing the transmission of the Ryu that are contained within. A new martial art may require some form of effectiveness as a credibility aspect (although that is of course only in regard to it's chosen environment... BJJ, for instance, doesn't need to be effective for self defence, it needs to be effective at winning BJJ competition. Judo doesn't need to be effective for self defence, it needs to be effective at winning Judo competition. Seitei Iai doesn't need to be effective for self defence [well, the sword is kind of a giveaway there, really....], it needs to be effective at transmitting the mindset and proper use of the sword, and so on. Martial arts are not about self defence....), but that's about it.

The argument "well, what I do is effective and works in the street!" simply shows a giant lack of understanding of the arts themselves.... I mean, really, why do people think that "It's a devestating street defence art!" has anything to do with an art based in 16th Century Japan, I have no idea.... the two environments are so far removed from each other that it's like saying that my horse and cart from 200 years ago works as transport so I can race modern cars with it. It just doesn't make any sense, really.


----------



## Indagator

Firstly in regards to the comments and statements by the OP, I would like to point out that it is often said that one does not even truly begin to learn the art until shodan. The kyu levels are a preparatory graduated learning curve through which one (hopefully) achieves certain neccessary prerequisites which will enable them to actually be able to learn what they will be taught... to me it's like if you want to be a novelist, you must first learn the alphabet. Then grammar and tense. And then a bunch of other stuff about how to write the language. Once you have sound knowledge of all of these fields, then you will be able to study, say, creative writing. Diving right into a serious crative writing course right from word go will not, usually, work out well. Case-in-point; ever seen an eight year old graduate one of those courses?
I say this because you mention that you have studied as far as 6th kyu in ninjutsu. So to transpose this into the context of my metaphor, let's say you have mastered the basics of spelling, grammar, and tense. If you now venture out on your own to pioneer a new method of creative writing study courses, what would this method be based on? It would be reasonable to doubt the legitimacy of these courses. Surely you could understand why?

I dunno. These others who are far more learned than I continuously offer you advice here - I admonish you to please take it on board. Nobody bears you ill-will. You stand only to gain from listening to them, you cannot lose a thing. 

All the best, brother. May your journey carry you ever forwards!


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Thank you for your Opinions...

Chris... Ive got you set to Ignore.. Sorry, but I wouldn't want you to waste your time with me!!
Bruno, I tried ignoring you but somehow your a moderator?? Hows that?? 
Seeing as your the most disrespectful when it comes to name calling, 
I have reported you and reported this post for lock down.. It seems you all will not stick to the topic at all...

Good day!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Thank you for your Opinions...
> 
> Chris... Ive got you set to Ignore.. Sorry, but I wouldn't want you to waste your time with me!!
> Bruno, I tried ignoring you but somehow your a moderator?? Hows that??
> Seeing as your the most disrespectful when it comes to name calling,
> I have reported you and reported this post for lock down.. It seems you all will not stick to the topic at all...
> 
> Good day!



I'm being disrespectful? At no time did I start insulting you or did anything other than reply to your posts. I may not say the things that you want to hear, but that does not mean they're wrong.

Looking objectively at the whole discussion, you use a specific historial term from Japanese culture for your own purpose. Chris and I point out that your use of the term does not make sense, your use of the word 'ryu' does not make sense, you abuse the word 'ronin' as an instructor level, and you start teaching an art after only a couple of years of instruction.

Us pointing that out and refusing to take you serious is not the same as calling you names.
I used the word 'newbie' which imo is appropriate for someone who has only been studying any art for a couple of years. Without qualified instruction anyone remains a newbie.
I used the word 'larp' to describe people who think they can invent new ninjutsu ryuha in this day and age, nevermind the fact that you are not Japanese, living in Japan or put much stock in factual / historical accuracy. See previous paragraph.

As for me being a moderator. You are correct. So I knew you had reported me. I do get the reports. It's not a big secret btw. The rectangular green badge next to my username, with the text 'moderator' is kind of a giveaway. How that came to be... ask Bob. He's the owner.


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## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Thank you for your Opinions...
> 
> Chris... Ive got you set to Ignore.. Sorry, but I wouldn't want you to waste your time with me!!
> Bruno, I tried ignoring you but somehow your a moderator?? Hows that??
> Seeing as your the most disrespectful when it comes to name calling,
> I have reported you and reported this post for lock down.. It seems you all will not stick to the topic at all...
> 
> Good day!


 
Okay, I'm being ignored, which is fine (this does seem to be the second time I've been told that by you, though.... and as I warned last time, if you keep putting people who disagree with you on ignore [myself, an attempt at Bruno] as we try to give you better information than you have, pretty soon you'll have everyone on ignore.... and that'll make it a rather dull place for you to be!), but I do have to wonder... how was I not sticking to the topic? I mean, the topic itself is the acceptance of Ninjutsu, I sought clarification based on what Ninjutsu actually is, and got to the point where I went back through the entire thread, starting with the original post itself in order to address it....?

Seriously, there are some major synaptic issues with your posting and thanking style, I really do think there's a form of autism, or something similar at work there. You thank people who tell you what you're doing is ridiculous, read insults where they don't exist, and cannot get a message from a picture posted. I just think that if we knew what was going on there we may be better able to communicate with you.

Oh, well, I'm ignored, so I don't know that these questions will reach you.... pity, as they're rather relevant to your time here. I'm not sure how long it's going to be, honestly.


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## ElfTengu

Don't let this guy steal time that you could have spent training, he is not the first, far from the last, and is very sad really.

Ninjutsu is 100% Japanese even if most of its practitioners aren't. But all authentic ninjutsu practitioners, and certainly all authentic instructors/teachers, have a connection or lineage (in the case of Toshindo etc) to another teacher/practitioner who was qualified by someone with authentic rank from either the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan, otherwise it is not ninjutsu that they are studying or teaching.

Bear in mind that we don't even regard certain 8th and 10th dan (ranks awarded by Hatsumi Soke) as legitimate teachers even though they now have their own offshoot school, and this is primarily because they have filled the gaps in their knowledge with material from other arts and still passed it off as ninjutsu when it is not. There is nothing wrong with cross training, but cross trainers know which bits of their overall repertoire are 'ninjutsu/taijutsu' and which are not, and make sure that if they pass any of this additional material onto their students that their students are also aware which is which.

Xkan folks are always going to be harsh critics of anything that screams like a little kid that it is is ninjutsu but is clearly not.


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## Tanaka

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I'm being ignored, which is fine (this does seem to be the second time I've been told that by you, though.... and as I warned last time, if you keep putting people who disagree with you on ignore [myself, an attempt at Bruno] as we try to give you better information than you have, pretty soon you'll have everyone on ignore.... and that'll make it a rather dull place for you to be!), but I do have to wonder... how was I not sticking to the topic? I mean, the topic itself is the acceptance of Ninjutsu, I sought clarification based on what Ninjutsu actually is, and got to the point where I went back through the entire thread, starting with the original post itself in order to address it....?
> 
> Seriously, there are some major synaptic issues with your posting and thanking style, I really do think there's a form of autism, or something similar at work there. You thank people who tell you what you're doing is ridiculous, read insults where they don't exist, and cannot get a message from a picture posted. I just think that if we knew what was going on there we may be better able to communicate with you.
> 
> Oh, well, I'm ignored, so I don't know that these questions will reach you.... pity, as they're rather relevant to your time here. I'm not sure how long it's going to be, honestly.



He probably learned it from ChosonNinja. This "Jon" uses the same type of attitude as ChosonNinja did. Giving the constant "I am just trying to teach people and help benefit them"(We don't mind if you teach, just stop lying).
Constantly making '-bows-' and sarcastically thanking people whom have told him how ridiculous he is.
Speaking deeply about "Honoring this... Honoring that"
Acting like hes an overly romanticized version of a Samurai following the overly romanticized Bushido.
(Yes there becomes a point of where you become ridiculous when you overly preach about honor and respect. Instead of being realistic you start to seem artificial. This isn't a fantasy movie/anime)

(To Kumori Ryu Ninja: )The black scorpion society(once again another term that seems to play on fantasy of being dark and mysterious coolness factor) doesn't honor Ninjutsu/Ninpo nor do you. You honor YOUR idea of Ninjutsu/Ninpo. Which in return is disrespectful to actual Ninjutsu/Ninpo. Since they are not YOUR idea's to hold claim to.


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## nitflegal

Well then, far be it from me to contribute to thread drift, so on to the topic at hand.  As I see it, there are three main barriers to the acceptance of ninjutsu.  The first is that quite simply we are not solely studying ninjutsu in the X-Kans.  I do think many of the mind-sets of the 3 ninjutsu ryu have permeated how Soke has taught the other 6 schools but when I'm studying Sanshin, that isn't technically ninjutsu.  Moreover, I have encountered comparatively few teachers in the Bujinkan who can teach anything from Togakure ryu that isn't straight from the DVD.  So right there is the misconception that if you go to the X-Kans you're going to be spending all of your time with shuriken and leaping and stealth kills and the like.

Second, there's a lot of *****-talking in the Bujinkan and cliques.  Very public as well.  The constant Stephen Hayes eats babies/tears create babies discussions for example.  Beyond that, most of these public snipings tend to be mostly from people who have never met or studied with the people they're slamming/praising.  So we in the X-Kans air our dirty laundry a lot in public.  

The third and my opinion primary reason we'll never be accepted is, to be blunt, you and people like you.  "Ninjutsu" is chock full of people teaching other people wretched and innaccurate techniques after far too little or no experience learning from someone qualified to instruct these schools.  Many are well meaning but naive, many more are Larpers, and many more are studying with people who cashed in on the ninja craze with no more authenticity than they'd bought a ninja uniform from AWMA.  The bigggest slam against the Bujinkan is that we have teachers who suck, who don't understand body mechanics, and whose understanding of technique is limited to what they can ape from Hatsumi's videos.  Amazingly enough, propogating more inexperienced teachers who don't know what they're doing isn't going to help our reputation.  Inclusive things like the Black Scorpion Society are exactly what's wrong.  Historical ninjutsu is an actual series of techniques, kata, kamae, fighting philosophies, spiritual and mental outlooks, etc that were used in combat and passed down to successive soke and shidoshi.  It is not an integration of karate, gung fu, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, and whatever else was previously studied by the membership with a new name.  It's insulting to those of us who've taken the time to search for good teachers and it's hugely insulting to people like Soke, Muramatsu, Hayes, Malstrom, Davis, etc who've devoted their adult lives to making these arts actually available to all of us.  This stuff isn't hidden, it's not hard to find.  You might have to drive a ways but there is a teacher in your country and most likely your state and province.

To answer your original question, here's what we do if we want more acceptance.  
1)  Be clearer in our teminology what schools originated the techniques we're learning.  If it's not from Togakure ryu, be clear that it is from Gyokko, or Kukishinden, or what have you.  Educate what ninjutsu in our arts actually is.
2)  Try and minimize the smack talk.  PM's, face to face, e-mail is a great way to discuss how much teacher X sucks or how badly you could beat them up in a real fight.  Keep it in the family and understand that public forums are just that, public.
3)  Deny acceptance to inexperienced people who've decided they can teach these arts.  I wouldn't study trombone from someone who had only studied it for 6 months, why would I trust my actual life to techniques from a martial artist of similar experience.  Put it this way, can you give me 10 Gyokko ryu kata names, meanings, and descriptions from memory AND demonstrate them effectively against a variety of body types?  How about the physiologic impacts of ura versus omote shuto?  Sanshin with a bo, tanto, and kusari fundo?  If you can't use any one of these topics as a theme to teach for a month, find another job.

Part of me hates being blunt because you may be well meaning.  If that's the case, please understand you're not teaching and most likely not even practicing effective martial arts from any of the X-Kans.  Let your ego die and approach learning with a beginner's heart and work your *** off for a decade or two, 1-3 hours every day.  If you can't understand this, then I hope that your students don't get damaged too badly.

Matt


----------



## Aiki Lee

To Chris's post about my post:

I see your point. I totally agree that even if his system works it does not make it ninjutsu. He can call it that, but that does not make it so. I could put big floppy ears and big hose on a rhino, but that wouldn't make it an elephant.

Personally I got into martial arts for self-defence reasons and because i was interested in Japanese culture. I can see what you mean when you say that martial arts are not really all about the self-defense. But for me that remains a huge part of it and I assumed it was Kumori's reason as well.

To Kumori:

Why would you block Chris? He knows what he is talking about. He and Bruno tend to be some of the best posters and most respectful guys on the site. I honestly don't see where they have insulted you.

If you do not feel your OP is being responded to, can you clairify it? From my perspective we have been trying to answer it for days.


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## Chris Parker

Er, I'm being ignored here, so I doubt that this will get to who it needs to, but on the off-chance it gets to him, this thread is a very good example of why someone with no real experience starting a new "system" gets the reaction they do (swordsmanship in this case): http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/24195-Nihontodo-Combative-Kenjutsu

For those of you that venture, enjoy! (Really can't believe some people some times....)


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## Bruno@MT

I'f you're on 'ignore', the other guy still sees a placeholder that says _'This message is hidden because you placed XYZ on your ignore list'_. And then you can choose to still view it so as far as ignoring goes, it doesn't really work and yes, there is a chance he still views your posts.

Also, If someone quotes your post, then that quoted text is still visible to him.


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## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> Er, I'm being ignored here, so I doubt that this will get to who it needs to, but on the off-chance it gets to him, this thread is a very good example of why someone with no real experience starting a new "system" gets the reaction they do (swordsmanship in this case): http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/24195-Nihontodo-Combative-Kenjutsu
> 
> For those of you that venture, enjoy! (Really can't believe some people some times....)



Looks very similar.

Founded a new system, and judging by the youtube videos, have no idea what they are doing. No zanshin, no efficient movement, no power generation.... even I could do better than 'that'. And then there is the overly polite, 'let's all be friends' attitude that is supposed to gloss over the cluelessness.

You know it wouldn't be so bad if these people didn't try to leech off authentic Japanese systems by using the same name, thereby ruining the reputation os serious practicioners. If they'd just call it 'Bob's whack-a-mole swordplay', noone would mind. but no. They have no training, watch a couple of videos, and suddenly they're masters, claim to have learned koryu systems and doing kenjutsu / ninjutsu / whatever.

Just sad.


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## ElfTengu

Bruno@MT said:


> Looks very similar.
> 
> Founded a new system, and judging by the youtube videos, have no idea what they are doing. No zanshin, no efficient movement, no power generation.... even I could do better than 'that'. And then there is the overly polite, 'let's all be friends' attitude that is supposed to gloss over the cluelessness.
> 
> You know it wouldn't be so bad if these people didn't try to leech off authentic Japanese systems by using the same name, thereby ruining the reputation os serious practicioners. If they'd just call it 'Bob's whack-a-mole swordplay', noone would mind. but no. They have no training, watch a couple of videos, and suddenly they're masters, claim to have learned koryu systems and doing kenjutsu / ninjutsu / whatever.
> 
> Just sad.


 
*Gasp* Don't bring 'Bob's Whack-a-mole Swordplay' into it, because authentic 'Bob's Whack-a-mole Swordplay' practitioners hate it when people steal their terminology and start up their own fake 'Bob's Whack-a-mole Swordplay' schools!


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## Supra Vijai

Should I put food and drink away first?

EDIT: Too late...  How is any of that Kenjutsu? Why is there so much sword on sword whacking? Why are the practitioners bouncing around? Where is the control in anything or the body weight behind the cuts? Why am I, a 5th Kyu with no official training in Kenjutsu (apart from the basics we cover in class as attackers) able to question this? So many questions... On the upside just read the first page of the thread it's on, love the fact that the OP questions what exactly Ninten Do is and then invites people to join them to learn proficiency in using Shinken. That's made my night


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## Chris Parker

Well, he is right to ask what Ninten Do is, not many people have been exposed to the true Patient Heaven Way......


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## Supra Vijai

Ahh I see... they are missing out!

Went through the rest of that thread and am sorry to say followed all the other links. Still cringing from the shopping mall display as well as their video showcasing their "Battodo". Bit disappointed though that they didn't get the guy to demo his Iai with a Shinken... Noto would have been fun


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## Bruno@MT

Damn you beat me to the punch.
Although I would have chosen 'way of the man point'
&#20154;&#28857;&#22581;

Personally I like this one better because if we loosely interpret it as a euphemism, it is kind of appropriate for the topic at hand (the made up kenjutsu system).
Japanese is a great language for puns, ambiguity and double meanings.

Slightly off topic: I know a guy who founded his own system of jujutsu based on hakko ryu with western influences. The japanese name for his system was 'chidori' which he says means love flower (note that this person is really not good with languages). Somehow I think he failed to think that one through


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## Supra Vijai

Bruno@MT said:


> ... 'way of the man point'
> &#20154;&#28857;&#22581;
> 
> Personally I like this one better because if we loosely interpret it as a euphemism, it is kind of appropriate for the topic *at hand*



No pun intended Bruno? 



> Slightly off topic: I know a guy who founded his own system of jujutsu based on hakko ryu with western influences. The japanese name for his system was 'chidori' which he says means love flower (note that this person is really not good with languages). Somehow I think he failed to think that one through



Wait... really? I mean REALLY?? That's gold! Do you think I could get him to help me name my new Ryu that I'll start after I turn 25 and read a few more books/manga & watch more youtube?


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## Bruno@MT

Supra Vijai said:


> No pun intended Bruno?
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... really? I mean REALLY?? That's gold! Do you think I could get him to help me name my new Ryu that I'll start after I turn 25 and read a few more books/manga & watch more youtube?





And yes, really. Just for clarification though: that person did have a thorough schooling in hakko ryu. Due to circumstances which are irrelevant here, he founded his own 'all style jujutsu' organization. He knows his stuff. He is just terrible with languages.


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## Supra Vijai

lol sorry that was a bit ambiguous, the dig was at a few others that have come up lately - namely the Nihontodo guys


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## Carol

Supra Vijai said:


> No pun intended Bruno?
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... really? I mean REALLY?? That's gold! Do you think I could get him to help me name my new Ryu that I'll start after I turn 25 and read a few more books/manga & watch more youtube?



You're Australian.  Kan Goh Ryu.  

:redcaptur


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## Muawijhe

Carol said:


> You're Australian. Kan Goh Ryu.


 
That's classic. I'll be sure to send my money on over to Mr. Kim so I can get black belt certificates in Niten Do and Kan Goh Ryu to hang on the wall of my dojo for when I create my own ryu. It'll incorporate the techniques of the Ninja that fled to Germany after Sekigahara. I'll call it Große Wiener Ryu. Every student will get a piece of the Schnitzel...

[oh, that was bad...my apologies...]


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## Carol

Muawijhe said:


> That's classic. I'll be sure to send my money on over to Mr. Kim so I can get black belt certificates in Niten Do and Kan Goh Ryu to hang on the wall of my dojo for when I create my own ryu. It'll incorporate the techniques of the Ninja that fled to Germany after Sekigahara. I'll call it Große Wiener Ryu. Every student will get a piece of the Schnitzel...
> 
> [oh, that was bad...my apologies...]



Think your students might be interested in my own art, Rhee Bok Do?   I think we have some cross-ranking possibilities here


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## pgsmith

My favorite is Rod Sacharnoski who 'founded' Seidokan jujutsu. He got an actual signed certificate from Japan that used the kanji &#24615; instead of &#27491; for 'sei'. This changes Seidokan from 'true way house' to 'sex way house'.


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## Aiki Lee

Bruno@MT said:


> Slightly off topic: I know a guy who founded his own system of jujutsu based on hakko ryu with western influences. The japanese name for his system was 'chidori' which he says means love flower (note that this person is really not good with languages). Somehow I think he failed to think that one through



Is this what you mean? It's about as relevant as what some of these people are attempting to do anyway.


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## Tez3

Clicked on originally becaue of the title, got confused because it wasn't about the rest of us martial artists accepting Ninjutsu at all. However havong a lousy couple of days due to lousy cold my day has been brightened considerably by the last few posts so thank you everyone, much appreciated as I chuckle into my hot toddies. (you do have them where you are don't you?)


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## Grenadier

There's nothing wrong with creating your own art, as long as you don't claim that it is what it isn't.  For example, if I were to create my own art comprising of the techniques I learned in Shotokan Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Wado Karate, and Shuri Ryu Karate, nobody would really care what I called it, as long as I didn't try to call it Brazilian Ninjutsu, Koryu Kempo Ju Jutsu, or Super Gung Fu.  

However, when you try to call an art any kind of "Ninjutsu" without there being any significant experience and / or knowledge in a respectable system of Ninjutsu, you're going to get mocked, belittled, etc.  




Tez3 said:


> However havong a lousy couple of days due to lousy cold my day has been brightened considerably by the last few posts so thank you everyone, much appreciated as I chuckle into my hot toddies. (you do have them where you are don't you?)


 
Yes, indeed.  Hot cider spiked with Applejack brandy, along with a dose of cinnamon schnapps is one favorite, as is hot chocolate mixed in with 80 proof peppermint schnapps, topped with whipped cream, chocolate sprinkles, and stirred with a peppermint candy cane.


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## Tez3

Grenadier said:


> There's nothing wrong with creating your own art, as long as you don't claim that it is what it isn't. For example, if I were to create my own art comprising of the techniques I learned in Shotokan Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Wado Karate, and Shuri Ryu Karate, nobody would really care what I called it, as long as I didn't try to call it Brazilian Ninjutsu, Koryu Kempo Ju Jutsu, or Super Gung Fu.
> 
> However, when you try to call an art any kind of "Ninjutsu" without there being any significant experience and / or knowledge in a respectable system of Ninjutsu, you're going to get mocked, belittled, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Yes, indeed. Hot cider spiked with Applejack brandy, along with a dose of cinnamon schnapps is one favorite, as is hot chocolate mixed in with 80 proof peppermint schnapps, topped with whipped cream, chocolate sprinkles, and stirred with a peppermint candy cane*.


 


Wow! I'm going to have to try that.

Just seen my spelling, it really is an off day so off to bed!


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## Bruno@MT

When I have a cold I like hot milk with some sugar, honey, and good rum.


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## Aiki Lee

I'm kinda surprised this thread is still going? Is Kumori gone?


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## Supra Vijai

Himura - For now I guess. I'm sure he'll pop up eventually and tell us we are all disgraceful martial arts who don't take our arts seriously

Tez - Nope, not an aussie thing. I've heard the term before of course but never had one. Reading your recipes though sounds like it'd make for a fun party night lol. When I have a cold I take aspirin... :angel:

Pgsmith - Same as I said to Bruno... That's gold!

Muawijhe - No you can't. I'm not planning on giving Mr. Kim Menkyo licences for my art, or Ronin ranks, or any Dan grades or even a membership. He can have a dvd though. Any certificate he issues will not be recognized by our umbrella corporation: SUPRACORP. That being said, if you really wanted to get a black belt with us, just send me a Money Order (Western Union accepted) for $299.99 for a complete training course


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## Muawijhe

Supra Vijai said:


> Muawijhe - No you can't. I'm not planning on giving Mr. Kim Menkyo licences for my art, or Ronin ranks, or any Dan grades or even a membership. He can have a dvd though. Any certificate he issues will not be recognized by our umbrella corporation: SUPRACORP. That being said, if you really wanted to get a black belt with us, just send me a Money Order (Western Union accepted) for $299.99 for a complete training course


 
I'm sorry, Supra, but as a dedicated employee of Omni Consumer Products, I've signed an NCC that prevents me from joining your organization. Nice try, though. ^.^


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## Supra Vijai

dang...


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## Muawijhe

_The Unholy_ Don Roley asked that someone post this from an off-topic discussion on Kumori Ryu Ninjutsu that came up over at MartialArtsPlanet.com.



Don Roley said:


> Yes. Jon has said he will never train with a Bujinkan teacher due to the rudeness he received there. The thing is, it looks like he was here for at least a few weeks before he started posting there and never sought me or one of the other Bujinkan teachers in the area for training.
> 
> As I said, it looks like his excuses are nothing more than just that.
> 
> He will probably in the future say that he decided not to train with me due to my rudeness as well. The truth is, I contacted him and told him that what he posted on martialtalk convinced me to deny him ever training with me.
> 
> Seriously, if he can't take comments on a web site without gathering up his toys and going home, there is no way he can hack it in the training I have gotten or give.
> 
> Edit- and if someone can tell the guys are martialtalk that I rejected him as a student I will appreciate it. I will also show my....... _appreciation_ to those that wanted to send him to me, preferably in a dark ally should I ever get the chance.:lowblow:


 
Full link to the thread:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1074395653


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## Aiki Lee

I kinda miss Jon now that he's not posting. I never knew what he was gonna say next!


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## Muawijhe

Himura Kenshin said:


> I kinda miss Jon now that he's not posting. I never knew what he was gonna say next!


 
Probably just more fake humility shortly followed by accusations of hostility and off-base characte judgment with a dose or two of ignorance of Ninjutsu sprinkled on top. A tasty desert, but one I will admit is not good for one's health if consumed in greatly quantity.

Edit: The link I provided above for the MAP discussion was incorrect. Please try this link:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99128


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## Cryozombie

Did I miss it?  He never did respond to who he trained under here in Illinois after I asked him did he?


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## Chris Parker

No, Cryo, you didn't miss it. The only name provided was Allen Ennan, Shidoshi-ho, but never said who he was under himself.

The MAP thread is fun, interesting to know that he did actually contact Don... even before he came here (and when Don's name was mentioned, he made no indication of having any contact with him, let alone possibly asking about training, although that was exactly what we were wondering about!). One thing I find interesting is how Jon is now not going to ever have anything to do with the Bujinkan, after his "treatment" here... by myself (not Bujinkan, split a decade ago) and Bruno (Genbukan). Not sure how his connection works there.... but still, I don't think many Bujinkan instructors are too upset that he's not about to turn up to them?


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## Cryozombie

Chris Parker said:


> No, Cryo, you didn't miss it. The only name provided was Allen Ennan, Shidoshi-ho, but never said who he was under himself.



Ah, ok, Allen was one of Rick Spangler's guys.


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## Muawijhe

For those who really miss Jon and his flavour of whatever it was he was feeding us, or would like to ask him more questions, you can always try his Kumori Ryu forum...

http://kumoriforum.kumoriryuninjutsu.com/user/categories.aspx

:wakko:


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## Chris Parker

Oh dear lords and ladies all....

Ronin7411 (Johnny) is on there? Here's his message:



> Hey guys I meet Sensei Duvall on MartialTalk.com and he encouraged me to continue mastering the art of Ninjitsu despite what the contributors along with the moderators have been saying to me. He then invited me over to the site for any advice and if I ever was looking for information as well for my training. I hope that my incites help with anyone's training and best wishes go out to everyone and their training.


 
And I note Jon is still using Uke incorrectly... in fact, his "Welcome" forum is called "Welcome Uke", and he insists on calling all practitioners "Uke". How on earth do these people think they're qualified to do anything like this? I really just don't get it....


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## Tanaka

I feel sorry for people who get con by them.


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## Muawijhe

Tanaka said:


> I feel sorry for people who get con by them.


 
I was thinking about that the other day. From a marketing standpoint, I think most intelligent people would know to shy away from them. I haven't met Jon, nor seen his operation, but it is my assumption (and purely that, and no disrespect to Jon for it) that it will not attract a lot of students, at least not those without (how shall I put this?) being of a similar mindset to Jon


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## Tanaka

Muawijhe said:


> I was thinking about that the other day. From a marketing standpoint, I think most intelligent people would know to shy away from them. I haven't met Jon, nor seen his operation, but it is my assumption (and purely that, and no disrespect to Jon for it) that it will not attract a lot of students, at least not those without (how shall I put this?) being of a similar mindset to Jon


Actually after a boredom stroke from being sick. I went over to MAP and saw "Jon" posting over there. He wrote a long letter apologizing to Mr. Parker, Bruno, and everyone else. And he said he joined a Bujinkan school and turned his dojo into a study group. It is kind of good to know that we aren't wasting time by guiding these people who have mislead concepts. I guess they can change.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Really? Can you post a link?


----------



## Bujingodai

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99128

I just closed it. I don't know how sincere Jon is with the whole thing sounds like he will carry on with both IMO.


----------



## perceive

I know this is a very difficult question to ask, and one that should possibly be its own thread, but I will ask anyway and hopefully get some assurance/advice or at least a better understanding as to why it exists.
I posted under the beginning martial arts section as to what was local and available as a martial art and one of the helpful responses was from Chris Parker.  Their website and reading a few of his posts certainly piqued my interests in their particular discipline.  In looking at a lot of threads both here and on MAP I am noticing that there is a lot of divisiveness.  I know that it should be irrelevant and I intend to go to the school tomorrow to see what it is like in person but I am wondering if, outside of that school, there will always be this level of divisiveness amongst Ninjutsu practitioners?  I guess some other arts like Wing Chun demonstrate a lack of unity at times but the Ninjutsu forums seem to have rather a lot of it.
This will not put me off visiting Chris and his school tomorrow evening (also forgive me for using the wrong terms where applicable, I'd expect that I will gain a more correct knowledge of wording, terms and culture as part of my education) and I will be keeping as open a mind as possible in my hunt for a school (and it helps they are terribly conveniently located)... I just wanted to air this general concern since reading a lot of threads here and on MAP and see what the reasons people could provide.


----------



## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear lords and ladies all....
> 
> Ronin7411 (Johnny) is on there? Here's his message:
> 
> 
> 
> And I note Jon is still using Uke incorrectly... in fact, his "Welcome" forum is called "Welcome Uke", and he insists on calling all practitioners "Uke". How on earth do these people think they're qualified to do anything like this? I really just don't get it....


 
Was the 'incites' a Freudian slip? surely he offered insights not try to incite anyone.


----------



## Bruno@MT

perceive said:


> I know this is a very difficult question to ask, and one that should possibly be its own thread, but I will ask anyway and hopefully get some assurance/advice or at least a better understanding as to why it exists.
> I posted under the beginning martial arts section as to what was local and available as a martial art and one of the helpful responses was from Chris Parker.  Their website and reading a few of his posts certainly piqued my interests in their particular discipline.  In looking at a lot of threads both here and on MAP I am noticing that there is a lot of divisiveness.  I know that it should be irrelevant and I intend to go to the school tomorrow to see what it is like in person but I am wondering if, outside of that school, there will always be this level of divisiveness amongst Ninjutsu practitioners?  I guess some other arts like Wing Chun demonstrate a lack of unity at times but the Ninjutsu forums seem to have rather a lot of it.
> This will not put me off visiting Chris and his school tomorrow evening (also forgive me for using the wrong terms where applicable, I'd expect that I will gain a more correct knowledge of wording, terms and culture as part of my education) and I will be keeping as open a mind as possible in my hunt for a school (and it helps they are terribly conveniently located)... I just wanted to air this general concern since reading a lot of threads here and on MAP and see what the reasons people could provide.



Hello.

The answer to your question is both yes and no. Allow me to explain 
There are various organizations still teaching actual ninjutsu. They are Genbukan, bujinka and Jinenkan, as well as various organizations that split off under leadership of an experienced practicioner. Chris' organization is one of those.
It is a very interesting discipline, but it takes a long time to get good at it. And contrary to what hollywood wants you to believe, it is mainly a lot of hard training things that can appear boring. Basics usually are that way.

Between those organizations, there is very little bad blood. There is some politics, but we all all respect each other. The key is that we are all practicing arts that were ultimately passed down through Takamatsu Toshi tsugu. Those are the only lineages still sruviving today for which we have reason to believe they are real.

Now, there is also a lot of animosity towards various groups like Kumori ryu ninjutsu because they see a couple of ninja movies, combine some karate, judo and perhaps some aikido or 1 or 2 years in a legit organization, and then they form their own organization, running around in the forest in dark suits, throwing shuriken etc.

We really don't like them.  They grab an image that makes them look cool and leech it without caring about accuracy, or the fact that they make our art look ridiculous. It has gotten to the point where most people don't say what it is they practice to outsiders because we want to avoid coming across as a bunch of hollywood idiots.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Hey guys... Alright.. Here ya go.... 
Please.. lets do this civilly.. and before you read this.. 
Please note that I mean what I say!

Dear Chris, Cryo, Bruno, Bob, the list goes on.....

  Ive had to take some time off to think, and then respond. I want to apologize for my actions, by that I mean not taking the time to sit and properly write out my goals, my thoughts and my intentions. for that I am sorry!! Chris... lol

I have read and read and re-read everything, I want to thank all of you for putting a few things into perspective!! First, I have been to quick to blame the Bujinkan organization for the actions and words of a few, I am not referring to MT individuals here, this is due to people in the Bujinkan I know personally so do not confuse that fact, I am in no way blaming any MT poster for my departure, However, I did prior to moving to colorado and proir to my departure, contact several Dojo and apparently Don roleys group was one that I had contacted, I have since forgot his name and was unfamiliar with his name when members brought him to my attention in recent posts I.E. "The unholey", I did receive a statement from him, in wich he stated that I was unable to train with him due to my disclosures and actions on this forum, That is fine!! I appreciate his input and his time, Now. I want it to be known, Even though Don and I have had our differences, I greatly appreciate his "wake up call" as I have called it. I have asked him to not contact me, but in time I would like to open a friendly dialog and inform him that he has made me think ALOT!... I want him to know I have no aggression or animosity toward him... Im sure he will find out one way or another... I know you guys are all tight.... He seems like a nice, well informed, honest guy... 

There is a few things that he did state that got me thinking, after much prayer and a solid look at myself and my students, I have made a few decisions... First after reviewing the BSNS site I do see a few flaws in there approach to Ninjutsu, there is no denying that! I have removed my links to them and have had no luck in obtaining a response from them concerning my affiliation...  I have also seen that there are a few others that have seen their site and also see the same discrepancies I.E. Koga affiliations, ect... I want it to be known that I am not looking to the BSNS for validation....When I had no where to find accreditation for my training I joined the I.M.F and did so because I respect Mr. Shook for his dedication to helping martial artists as well as there help in creating Rank certificates for my Dojo... 

Now onto my Dojo... I can see how I upset a few serious practitioners with a few errors like the use of Ninjutsu, Ro-nin Rank, ect.... I want to make it known that I started out as a "study group" to continue training after my sensei had discontinued his classes, I did have one person join to learn "Naruto" ninjutsu lol, he obviously did not last long at all.. Once the replex had approached me to start a class in their facility, thats when I started to teach, I moved from a study group to a Dojo, I felt that without a curriculum the students would end up leaving or becoming uninterested in Ninjutsu, I talked with friends and family and had spent much time talking and thinking about the formation of a Ryu "Tradition". Basically I talked their and my wife's ears off! I have read that Founders of Ryu state that after several days of training and meditation that divine inspiration is the Key to forming a Ryu. I felt that I HAD been inspired. That was one the reasons I formed the Kumori. 

Also please keep in mind that I am from an area where there is very little to be found in the area of ninjutsu. Also some of the shodon under Hiken dojo, I had been training just as long as them but, our sensei did not train through the winter so that put serious blocks in our training and our advancement. So in lue of this the lead student and I continued through the winters and came back to Allen in the spring, It was like starting all over again with him. He would drink coffee and we would start with ukemigata. (FACEPALM) lol.... Once he stopped teaching all together, at the time, I had no car! This obviously  posed a problem in the continuing of my LEARNING, as I had contacted a few of Hiken Dojo Shidoshi Kai holders with little luck in ever being able to connect and train...

So after moving on, I had talked to my dojos lead student and friend about my Idea of starting a Dojo. He was not to into the idea, He was never wanting to teach however. Keep in mind his training was only inclusive of our Sensei Allan then he started making trips to Shidoshi Rick's to continue his training, Im afraid I did not have that luxury as I was working from home and had obligations on the nights that the Hiken Dojo trained... I also spoke to (well tried to speak with, but received no responses for some time) to Sensei Allen about my Intentions with my Ryu Idea, He is not very personable as it seemed to me. So thinking back to his and I's informal discussion (one day after training) about my desires to teach what I had learned from him, and thinking back to his statement "any one can teach but they can not rank bujinkan with out the proper credentials", I went forward with my Ryu idea. .. The students of the replex and my personal friends encouraged me and showed no distaste for my intentions. I went outside of the Bujinkan for rank and title.. 
I want it to be known, at the time I was not a member of any forum or any other Martial arts advise group... So to be frank, I did this NOT to boost my ego or to make up a lineage, but instead to share what I know in a fashion that was acceptable to the facility that had entrusted me with the training of their young ones and friends in ninjutsu,

My future Intentions... I have stepped aside from teaching to begin training again with a new Dojo. They are Bujinkan. (I know I know) but, I was 100% honest about my back ground and my intentions. The Shidoshi has welcomed me to train, in fact I start tonight. My desires are to start from scratch I.E. rank-less, so that I can develop the skills that this dojo has established. I don't feel the need to take my certificates to them an state that I want to start here at 6th kyu. To be most honest when I approached my prior sensei about the finalizing of my dues he simply responded, Send a check to me... I felt that to be a little unnerving having no ability to contact him for some time and to then simply get a response of send me your money. Now, I know that its rightful to pay him and when I have the ability I feel its right to do so. However, I am now in a location where there are many good training options, which before there were very few, I also have a great car, thanks to my great friend and fellow martial artist. HES THE MAN!!!! lol... and I have a great opportunity to join a Dojo that has welcomed me, I will give them my 100%. Let it be known that I am going to them as an open minded, open hearted and title-less student... I again want to thank the Bujinkan practitioners that have shown me that its not about title, status or affiliation but instead about having the right heart the right mind and most importantly the right attitude!

It has taken me like 2 hours to right this as I am not the most fluent in typing... lol

SO. to recap....

I am sorry,
I am going to change TODAY!!
I am not a teacher from now and until I receive the title from a recognized Ninjutsu organization.
I do intend on directing and keeping my site and group open but there will be changes made...
     I.E. Kumori Ryu Ninjustu will be an Official "Study Group"
I will make Chris happy and not call anyone Uke.. lol just funnin ya chris. 
I will be here to help in any way.
I will be here to listen to thoughts and those that are nice enough to give sound advise
I will be Humble
I will show respect
I thank you now and will always thank you!

BTW I know your dying to know... 
Its the Kashiwa Bujinkan and Mr. Garner is an excellent individual!! 
We had a good 20 to 30 min talk about all of this!!!
Also, if you have an opinion on the school lets please keep it civil, I respect them VERY MUCH!

Take care, and please, If you have a honest question PM me...


----------



## perceive

Bruno@MT said:


> Hello.
> 
> The answer to your question is both yes and no. Allow me to explain
> There are various organizations still teaching actual ninjutsu. They are Genbukan, bujinka and Jinenkan, as well as various organizations that split off under leadership of an experienced practicioner. Chris' organization is one of those.
> It is a very interesting discipline, but it takes a long time to get good at it. And contrary to what hollywood wants you to believe, it is mainly a lot of hard training things that can appear boring. Basics usually are that way.
> 
> Between those organizations, there is very little bad blood. There is some politics, but we all all respect each other. The key is that we are all practicing arts that were ultimately passed down through Takamatsu Toshi tsugu. Those are the only lineages still sruviving today for which we have reason to believe they are real.
> 
> Now, there is also a lot of animosity towards various groups like Kumori ryu ninjutsu because they see a couple of ninja movies, combine some karate, judo and perhaps some aikido or 1 or 2 years in a legit organization, and then they form their own organization, running around in the forest in dark suits, throwing shuriken etc.
> 
> We really don't like them.  They grab an image that makes them look cool and leech it without caring about accuracy, or the fact that they make our art look ridiculous. It has gotten to the point where most people don't say what it is they practice to outsiders because we want to avoid coming across as a bunch of hollywood idiots.


That explains a lot, at the very least it is a gives me an understanding of some of the things that influence badly.  It always surprises me that people don't expect hard work and most of it to do with basics.  A cynical attitude from when I was in the army called a lot of it "******** baffles brains" even though there was actual purpose to a lot of it.  Well, hopefully after my visit things will become clearer (as they normally always are when you get to see something for real, rather than just in an abstract informational capacity) and we'll see where my journey takes me from there!


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am not a teacher from now and until I receive the title from a recognized Ninjutsu organization.
> I do intend on directing and keeping my site and group open but there will be changes made...
> I.E. Kumori Ryu Ninjustu will be an Official "Study Group"



Id like to Edit this but i cant... Im not a teacher but a I will share!!
We are a Study Group so that we may take in all that we learn... and grow with the knowledge given to us!

Thanks


----------



## Aiki Lee

This change of pace for you is quite refreshing. I hope things go well for you on your path to mastery.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Jon,

Don't know if you've taken me off "Ignore" yet, but in case you have (and that was intended above as a form of apology), I'm going to offer some advice that may help you be seen as genuine in your venture.

First off, drop the whole "Kumori Ryu" thing entirely. It's not a Ryu. If it's a study group, then it's an extension of the Dojo you are attending, not it's own seperate thing. Talk to your new instructor about having it officially recognised, without that there isn't even a study group there, just a bunch of people getting to together to train (whether in legit movement or not).

To give you an idea, a number of my guys get together to train a few times a week, working on what I've given them during class. But as there is no official endorsement from me in their training, it is not a study group, just a couple of students training together. If you are claiming it as an Official Study Group, the question will be who has given the official recognition to it?

Next, my advice would be to pull down the website, or at the very least change it to reflect the new situation. Remove all the references to yourself as "Sensei", let your guys know that their rank is now null and void (as you had no authority to test them), and anything else that gives the impression of you teaching. Learn first, teach later. 

You still claim that you are part of the Bujinkan (under a new instructor), as well as Toshindo. The rules of the Bujinkan actually prohibit that, so I'd be upfront with your new instructor, and follow their advice. If your Toshindo experience is Hayes' DVDs, remove reference to Toshindo. If it is with an instructor, you will need to choose between Toshindo and the Bujinkan.

Essentially, what you have said is, by and large, fine and good (a few things leap out at me, but I'm not going into that here...), but frankly this would be need to be seen in action. I'll be checking back to your website regularly to see how you're going on that.


----------



## ronin7411

You guys can PM Kumori this as well I also encouraged him to keep up with his studies into Budo Taijutsu (yes a Koga Ryu practitioner encouraging someone to study with the Bujinkan scary ain't it) since that is his root style and what he is basing all of his techniques on as well.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Jon,
> 
> Don't know if you've taken me off "Ignore" yet, but in case you have (and that was intended above as a form of apology), I'm going to offer some advice that may help you be seen as genuine in your venture.
> 
> First off, drop the whole "Kumori Ryu" thing entirely. It's not a Ryu. If it's a study group, then it's an extension of the Dojo you are attending, not it's own seperate thing. Talk to your new instructor about having it officially recognised, without that there isn't even a study group there, just a bunch of people getting to together to train (whether in legit movement or not).
> 
> To give you an idea, a number of my guys get together to train a few times a week, working on what I've given them during class. But as there is no official endorsement from me in their training, it is not a study group, just a couple of students training together. If you are claiming it as an Official Study Group, the question will be who has given the official recognition to it?
> 
> Next, my advice would be to pull down the website, or at the very least change it to reflect the new situation. Remove all the references to yourself as "Sensei", let your guys know that their rank is now null and void (as you had no authority to test them), and anything else that gives the impression of you teaching. Learn first, teach later.
> 
> You still claim that you are part of the Bujinkan (under a new instructor), as well as Toshindo. The rules of the Bujinkan actually prohibit that, so I'd be upfront with your new instructor, and follow their advice. If your Toshindo experience is Hayes' DVDs, remove reference to Toshindo. If it is with an instructor, you will need to choose between Toshindo and the Bujinkan.
> 
> Essentially, what you have said is, by and large, fine and good (a few things leap out at me, but I'm not going into that here...), but frankly this would be need to be seen in action. I'll be checking back to your website regularly to see how you're going on that.



Chris, I took you off of ignore so I could see what you say... lol

I have no desire to change my group, I have no desire to drop my web page.. Its not to make you mad... Its because my group and I want to continue learning... We appreciate your input, but we desire to work hard and learn... And not to be an *** but, We view people that tell us to quit as inspiration and motivation to succeed!

We love training... We need no endorsement. We want no endorsement... We are gonna do our thing, cause this is America!!!

Thank you for your opinion...


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> We are gonna do our thing, cause this is America!!!



Exactly.
So... why the obsession with Japanese trappings and titles like Ro-nin 
Doesn't sound very patriotic to me, now does it? 

Or perhaps it is a homage to hollywood and the awful 80's ninja movies?


----------



## Chris Parker

My suggestions were not to get you to quit, they were to give you some credibility.

To put it bluntly, if you use the Kumori Ryu name, you will have no credibility. 

If it is a Study Group, it needs to be under the direction of an instructor, I'm assuming here that that would be Mr Garner. And that would make your group a representative of his school. If it's not representative of his school, it's not a Study Group. Using the Kumori name removes it from being recognised as credible.

Working hard and learning are great, and highly encouraged. But you are not putting yourself across as actually doing so, you are seeming as if you have put together the letter on the previous page as lip service, but are now showing no indication that you are going to do much of what you said. There have been questions of your sincerity based on the letter only, and this is actually indication of that.

In terms of needing no endorsement, that's not actually true. You need to be endorsed by your teacher in order for it to be an official Study Group, hence my saying that the question you will be asked is under who's authority are you running a Study Group.

Same thing with the ranking and testing you have done so far (for those under you, I'm refering to here), there is no authority other than your own that has given that ranking, and you are far from a Sensei by any definition of the term. 

Really, I'm not telling you to stop altogether. I'm saying keep going with the study group, but make sure it is actually what you say it is. And for that to be credible (and legit) my previous suggestions would need to be followed. Otherwise you are simply still coming across as another disingenuous individual who likes thinking of themselves as a teacher without any of the time, skills, qualifications, or similar that go with that.

You have two choices here. Do what you say and gain some credibility (which includes all my previous suggestions), or don't, and realise that you are still in just as bad a position as were before the letter.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> My suggestions were not to get you to quit, they were to give you some credibility.
> 
> To put it bluntly, if you use the Kumori Ryu name, you will have no credibility.
> 
> If it is a Study Group, it needs to be under the direction of an instructor, I'm assuming here that that would be Mr Garner. And that would make your group a representative of his school. If it's not representative of his school, it's not a Study Group. Using the Kumori name removes it from being recognised as credible.
> 
> Working hard and learning are great, and highly encouraged. But you are not putting yourself across as actually doing so, you are seeming as if you have put together the letter on the previous page as lip service, but are now showing no indication that you are going to do much of what you said. There have been questions of your sincerity based on the letter only, and this is actually indication of that.
> 
> In terms of needing no endorsement, that's not actually true. You need to be endorsed by your teacher in order for it to be an official Study Group, hence my saying that the question you will be asked is under who's authority are you running a Study Group.
> 
> Same thing with the ranking and testing you have done so far (for those under you, I'm refering to here), there is no authority other than your own that has given that ranking, and you are far from a Sensei by any definition of the term.
> 
> Really, I'm not telling you to stop altogether. I'm saying keep going with the study group, but make sure it is actually what you say it is. And for that to be credible (and legit) my previous suggestions would need to be followed. Otherwise you are simply still coming across as another disingenuous individual who likes thinking of themselves as a teacher without any of the time, skills, qualifications, or similar that go with that.
> 
> You have two choices here. Do what you say and gain some credibility (which includes all my previous suggestions), or don't, and realise that you are still in just as bad a position as were before the letter.



We want no endorsement. Mr. garner is not interested in endorsing us.. Im sure of that... Im not in need of credibility... People think paper makes them a true practitioner, Ive seen people with cirtificates that can not teach let alone run a group or dojo... 

Im not looking for any blessings. My group is in no need of recognition... I posted my letter to give you the full story of me as many have asked for and I wanted to grant there wish... I also wanted to clear the air about my image, however I see it will probably do no good as people here assume the worst... I have been most honest with you... 

After a lot of discussion with my fellow ryu members... We are on the same page with our plans... We are directors.. We want to simply help point people in a good direction!

After this, I am not going to pay much attention to those wanting to question or mock our group, Until I came here for a place to connect no one knew about us, now you all know. 

We have had our site blow up since I came here... And that is great... We love you guys for showing us that people can sit at their computer and go on and on and on about us!!! 

Thanks so much for your time and energy...


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> We want no endorsement. Mr. garner is not interested in endorsing us.. Im sure of that... Im not in need of credibility... People think paper makes them a true practitioner, Ive seen people with cirtificates that can not teach let alone run a group or dojo...
> 
> Im not looking for any blessings. My group is in no need of recognition...



You are not in need of credibility? Then why does this feature on your mainpage?
_*The (I.M.F.) is to ensure that our studies and methods are recognized by a council of well respected Martial Artists... The I.M.F. is a great place for the Kumori Ryu to call home*_

Seems like you do want recognition.
And respected by whom? their other soke board pals and role players of the black scorpion society? Certainly not by any serious student of any art.

And while it is true that not everyone is qualified to teach a given subject, not having a thorough education in the subject doesn't help things either.


----------



## Chris Parker

Jon, I'm going to go through everything over the last page or two in detail now. Mainly because you are not being honest, despite your words, and I want to point out to you exactly how you are coming across, and why there are the issues we have.

This is going to be rather long.

In post #109 (above) you state:



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I have been most honest with you...


 
No, you haven't.

We'll start back with your "apology" letter.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Hey guys... Alright.. Here ya go....
> Please.. lets do this civilly.. and before you read this..
> Please note that I mean what I say!


 
Okay, you probably won't take this as "civil", but then again your take on civility seems to be "agree with me or you're being rude". That aint what civility is, though.

As for you "meaning what you say", let's see how that goes...



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Dear Chris, Cryo, Bruno, Bob, the list goes on.....
> 
> Ive had to take some time off to think, and then respond. I want to apologize for my actions, by that I mean not taking the time to sit and properly write out my goals, my thoughts and my intentions. for that I am sorry!! Chris... lol


 
Okay, was that actually an apology? You're apologising for not writing out your goals, thoughts and intentions? Really, what should be apologised for should be your behaviour blaming and accusing everyone of things that never happened. 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I have read and read and re-read everything, I want to thank all of you for putting a few things into perspective!! First, I have been to quick to blame the Bujinkan organization for the actions and words of a few, I am not referring to MT individuals here, this is due to people in the Bujinkan I know personally so do not confuse that fact, I am in no way blaming any MT poster for my departure,


 
First off, you didn't "leave", your account was "Under Review: Contact Admin Team". You sent a letter to Don Roley to be posted here, and the restriction on your account was lifted at the same time, so you could post it (this) here yourself. 

As for "in no way blaming any MT poster for my departure", every comment you have made about the forum since you got here has indicated that you have not appreciated being corrected, and associated us with the Bujinkan (for the record, and once again, I'm not Bujinkan, and Bruno is from the Genbukan... so you missed there). Don Roley has gone on record a number of times on MAP that you have expressed to him that the reason you were so "anti-Bujinkan" was due to "your treatment on Martial Talk". So you're either being dishonest with Don, or with us.

And you seem to have nothing in perspective, by the way.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> However, I did prior to moving to colorado and proir to my departure, contact several Dojo and apparently Don roleys group was one that I had contacted, I have since forgot his name and was unfamiliar with his name when members brought him to my attention in recent posts I.E. "The unholey", I did receive a statement from him, in wich he stated that I was unable to train with him due to my disclosures and actions on this forum, That is fine!!


 
You contacted Don in August. You have since contacted him again. That was after he saw this thread, and the other ones, and the way you conducted yourself here. Don is well known for his very high personal standards (in terms of character) for those that he let's into his training, you failed rather miserably.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I appreciate his input and his time, Now. I want it to be known, Even though Don and I have had our differences, I greatly appreciate his "wake up call" as I have called it. I have asked him to not contact me,


 
No, Don asked you to cease and desist after you continued to email him. You did not ask him to not contact you. 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> but in time I would like to open a friendly dialog and inform him that he has made me think ALOT!... I want him to know I have no aggression or animosity toward him... Im sure he will find out one way or another... I know you guys are all tight.... He seems like a nice, well informed, honest guy...


 
Don knows far more about these arts than you will likely ever get a chance to see, frankly. And unless you actually start doing the things I suggested, there is little to no chance of you getting a good relationship with him in the future. While Don may certainly have his faults, he is respected for his dedication and his congruency. He is about as far from a hypocrite as you can find. So if you manage to prove yourself to him, he'll allow comunication, if not, there's little hope. One thing he doesn't like, though (and it's the same with me, so you know) is false humility or forced politeness in such fashions.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> There is a few things that he did state that got me thinking, after much prayer and a solid look at myself and my students, I have made a few decisions... First after reviewing the BSNS site I do see a few flaws in there approach to Ninjutsu, there is no denying that! I have removed my links to them and have had no luck in obtaining a response from them concerning my affiliation... I have also seen that there are a few others that have seen their site and also see the same discrepancies I.E. Koga affiliations, ect... I want it to be known that I am not looking to the BSNS for validation....When I had no where to find accreditation for my training I joined the I.M.F and did so because I respect Mr. Shook for his dedication to helping martial artists as well as there help in creating Rank certificates for my Dojo...


 
This was news to you? This was one of the first things you were told here! And it's not that there are some flaws, there is no credibility whatsoever to their claims, and nothing whatsoever to do with anything close to authentic Japanese martial arts or Ninjutsu in particular.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Now onto my Dojo... I can see how I upset a few serious practitioners with a few errors like the use of Ninjutsu, Ro-nin Rank, ect....


 
These are just a few major hallmarks of a system with no legitimacy. You have far more mistakes just in your understanding of the art, use of terminology, and so on. All these things add up to you not having the experience, knowledge, skill, or understanding to be a teacher to anyone in any way, shape, or form.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I want to make it known that I started out as a "study group" to continue training after my sensei had discontinued his classes, I did have one person join to learn "Naruto" ninjutsu lol, he obviously did not last long at all.. Once the replex had approached me to start a class in their facility, thats when I started to teach, I moved from a study group to a Dojo, I felt that without a curriculum the students would end up leaving or becoming uninterested in Ninjutsu,


 
You had minimalist training, and had a 6th Kyu (again, yours and Don's stories don't actually match... he says that when you originally contacted him you couldn't prove your rank, and he said it didn't matter at the low level you had achieved, your story has you deciding that you didn't want to bother with starting at that rank, as that means you can start to learn the way the dojo trains... which completely contradicts your post complaining about starting training with Ukemigata... but we're getting ahead of ourselves), so how could you actually come up with a curriculum? You were in no postion to teach, and a training group is not a study group. Your knowledge of terminology is out again.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I talked with friends and family and had spent much time talking and thinking about the formation of a Ryu "Tradition". Basically I talked their and my wife's ears off! I have read that Founders of Ryu state that after several days of training and meditation that divine inspiration is the Key to forming a Ryu. I felt that I HAD been inspired. That was one the reasons I formed the Kumori.


 
Okay, that shows a complete lack of understanding of those old stories. Every single one of those stories of Divine inspiration involves the founder with years, in a number of cases, decades of training and experience behind them. As a minimum, they tended to have Menkyo Kaiden (full mastery licences) in at least one system before they developed their own system. Putting yourself in their company smacks of the most incredible arrogance and lack of understanding again.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Also please keep in mind that I am from an area where there is very little to be found in the area of ninjutsu. Also some of the shodon under Hiken dojo, I had been training just as long as them but, our sensei did not train through the winter so that put serious blocks in our training and our advancement. So in lue of this the lead student and I continued through the winters and came back to Allen in the spring, It was like starting all over again with him. He would drink coffee and we would start with ukemigata. (FACEPALM) lol.... Once he stopped teaching all together, at the time, I had no car! This obviously posed a problem in the continuing of my LEARNING, as I had contacted a few of Hiken Dojo Shidoshi Kai holders with little luck in ever being able to connect and train...


 
If there is no Ninjutsu in your area, that means one thing (and it's really rather simple here...) you cannot train in Ninjutsu! You have two choices, either go somewhere where there is training available, or accept that you cannot train it. 

And did you think that the reasons you weren't a Shodan (despite any time in training) is that you simply aren't skilled enough? Judging just from the pictures on your site, your kamae is completely out, and the pics of the "Ro-Nin" test are incredibly flawed as well. Perhaps the instructor was getting you to do Ukemi because that was all you could handle... or because you weren't good enough at that to do anything more advanced? Again, with you not being an instructor yourself, how can you judge why you were given a particular training method? 

And your story of no car really doesn't affect anything. If you cannot get to a training location, you can't train. Deal with it. Starting your own group, and thinking you are forming a "Ryu" is not accepting reality, it's fantasy land. That's our big problem with your approach.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> So after moving on, I had talked to my dojos lead student and friend about my Idea of starting a Dojo. He was not to into the idea, He was never wanting to teach however. Keep in mind his training was only inclusive of our Sensei Allan then he started making trips to Shidoshi Rick's to continue his training, Im afraid I did not have that luxury as I was working from home and had obligations on the nights that the Hiken Dojo trained... I also spoke to (well tried to speak with, but received no responses for some time) to Sensei Allen about my Intentions with my Ryu Idea, He is not very personable as it seemed to me. So thinking back to his and I's informal discussion (one day after training) about my desires to teach what I had learned from him, and thinking back to his statement "any one can teach but they can not rank bujinkan with out the proper credentials", I went forward with my Ryu idea. .. The students of the replex and my personal friends encouraged me and showed no distaste for my intentions. I went outside of the Bujinkan for rank and title..


 
Basically, what you were told was that you would have no authority if you started your own thing according to the Bujinkan, you were not told to look outside. That was the way you chose to see it.

To make the point, though, can you answer my questions from earlier:
What are the basis' of the Ryu?
What is the base philosophy?
What characterises Kumori Ryu as opposed to another Ryu?



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I want it to be known, at the time I was not a member of any forum or any other Martial arts advise group... So to be frank, I did this NOT to boost my ego or to make up a lineage, but instead to share what I know in a fashion that was acceptable to the facility that had entrusted me with the training of their young ones and friends in ninjutsu,


 
You feel that you have been entrusted with the youngsters, and your responce is to create this new system with little to no experience? To my mind, that's not very responsible. There are plenty of threads around here going through the issues with such an approach, but I'm going to suggest you do a search for "The Destroyer Style". 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> My future Intentions... I have stepped aside from teaching to begin training again with a new Dojo.


 
We'll come back to this.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> They are Bujinkan. (I know I know) but, I was 100% honest about my back ground and my intentions.


 
As you haven't been honest here (or on MAP), I have my doubts about that. If I was Don, I'd probably contact the instructor there to confirm things and give another side of things...



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> The Shidoshi has welcomed me to train, in fact I start tonight. My desires are to start from scratch I.E. rank-less, so that I can develop the skills that this dojo has established. I don't feel the need to take my certificates to them an state that I want to start here at 6th kyu. To be most honest when I approached my prior sensei about the finalizing of my dues he simply responded, Send a check to me... I felt that to be a little unnerving having no ability to contact him for some time and to then simply get a response of send me your money. Now, I know that its rightful to pay him and when I have the ability I feel its right to do so. However, I am now in a location where there are many good training options, which before there were very few, I also have a great car, thanks to my great friend and fellow martial artist. HES THE MAN!!!! lol... and I have a great opportunity to join a Dojo that has welcomed me, I will give them my 100%. Let it be known that I am going to them as an open minded, open hearted and title-less student... I again want to thank the Bujinkan practitioners that have shown me that its not about title, status or affiliation but instead about having the right heart the right mind and most importantly the right attitude!


 
The right attitude is absolutely correct. You have yet to show it.

It has taken me like 2 hours to right this as I am not the most fluent in typing... lol

SO. to recap....



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am sorry,


 
About what, though? 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am going to change TODAY!!


 
Not according to your next posts.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I am not a teacher from now and until I receive the title from a recognized Ninjutsu organization.


 
This is exactly why I said to drop the Sensei title and forget the idea of "Kumori Ryu".



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I do intend on directing and keeping my site and group open but there will be changes made...


 
We'll come back to this as well.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I.E. Kumori Ryu Ninjustu will be an Official "Study Group"


 
A Study Group is a training group under the direction of a senior instructor (not the member taking the group, the teacher of the Study Group leader).... without that, it's not even a Study Group, just a group of people getting together to practice and train. That is the credibility and "paper" you would need. That will be repeated. 



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I will make Chris happy and not call anyone Uke.. lol just funnin ya chris.


 
Don't really know what you mean by "just funnin ya"... I'm not sure whether or not you are going to stop misusing the term or not. You seem to use things like "lol" in rather odd ways that don't give context, and make it unclear whether or not you are serious in what you're saying...

But, for the record, it's not to make me happy, it's to make you sound like there's a small chance you have a tiny clue what you're talking about. I'll put it this way: You teach your kids this, or Brad, or whoever. In a few years, they go to a legitimate school, and use the term the same way you are using it. They will be told in no uncertain terms that what they are saying, and how they are saying it, is completely wrong, and may ask where they picked it up from. They mention you, and are told how bad what they have "learnt" from you really is. They then feel betrayed and feel (rightly) that you have been fraudulant in your delivery and teachings to them. This is a way to prevent that, and start you on the right path. If you don't want to learn from people here who really know what they are talking about (clue here, you don't know what you're talking about), then why are you here?



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I will be here to help in any way.


 
To help? Really? How? Is there anything you think you can tell us that we don't already know? Anything at all?



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I will be here to listen to thoughts and those that are nice enough to give sound advise


 
Well, that was what I've been doing since you first turned up, you just chose to see correction as an attack. Let's see if you can improve on that this time... personally, I'm waiting to see it first.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I will be Humble


 
False humility (the way Choson Ninja/Greg Park does things) doesn't count.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I will show respect


 
Again, I'll wait until I see it.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I thank you now and will always thank you!


 
Right.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> BTW I know your dying to know...
> Its the Kashiwa Bujinkan and Mr. Garner is an excellent individual!!
> We had a good 20 to 30 min talk about all of this!!!
> Also, if you have an opinion on the school lets please keep it civil, I respect them VERY MUCH!
> 
> Take care, and please, If you have a honest question PM me...


 
Talk to Mr Garner about you continuing your Kumori Ryu thing as well. Technically the Bujinkan rules don't allow it, so you know. And frankly, if you were my student you would be told basically that you can either keep in your little fantasy world, or you can train with us. Not both. If it's a Study Group, then it would need to be under his direction, and having a Study Group under the name of a made-up system is not something I can see being allowed.

If he is "agreeing with it", then I don't believe you have truly been honest with him. Point him towards these threads if you think you've been honest, as you would therefore have nothing to hide.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Id like to Edit this but i cant... Im not a teacher but a I will share!!
> We are a Study Group so that we may take in all that we learn... and grow with the knowledge given to us!
> 
> Thanks


 
Again, without the direction of a qualified instructor looking after the progress and direction of the group, no, it's not a Study Group.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Chris, I took you off of ignore so I could see what you say... lol


 
See, I have no idea what the "lol" is about there.... Is it meant to be a laugh about what I posted?



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I have no desire to change my group, I have no desire to drop my web page.. Its not to make you mad... Its because my group and I want to continue learning... We appreciate your input, but we desire to work hard and learn... And not to be an *** but, We view people that tell us to quit as inspiration and motivation to succeed!


 
If you have no intention to change your group, and you have been honest here, then why did you post this in your "apology letter"?:



> I do intend on directing and keeping my site and group open *but there will be changes made...*


 
Again, this is the inconsistency I'm refering to.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> We love training... We need no endorsement. We want no endorsement... We are gonna do our thing, cause this is America!!!
> 
> Thank you for your opinion...


 
For it to be a Study Group, you absolutely need endorsement! That's the point of a Study Group, it's not a training group for people to get together and go through what they want, it's a group to study the material sent from the guiding instructor, which is not you. Being America is really nothing to do with it, whatsoever, especially when dealing with Japanese martial traditions and organisations. Again, if this was the attitude you came to me with, you'd be invited to leave. Immediately.

This is the "right attitude" that was mentioned earlier, by having the attitude of "we can do what we want, we're American" shows no interest in learning, or in listening to anyone about these things.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> We want no endorsement. Mr. garner is not interested in endorsing us.. Im sure of that... Im not in need of credibility... People think paper makes them a true practitioner, Ive seen people with cirtificates that can not teach let alone run a group or dojo...


 
If he's not interested in you running a Study Group, take that on board. He may just feel that he wants to see how you are before he gives his permission... or he could simply want you to focus on being a student, especially if you were close to actually honest with him (about creating your own system and so forth).



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im not looking for any blessings. My group is in no need of recognition... I posted my letter to give you the full story of me as many have asked for and I wanted to grant there wish... I also wanted to clear the air about my image, however I see it will probably do no good as people here assume the worst... I have been most honest with you...


 
We're not giving any blessings, that's not our place here to do, it's something that should come from your instructor. What we are giving is realistic advice, based on far greater experience, skill, understanding, knowledge, and so on. If you're ignoring that, frankly that's your own problem.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> After a lot of discussion with my fellow ryu members... We are on the same page with our plans... We are directors.. We want to simply help point people in a good direction!


 
Okay, I'm going to say it again... You have no Ryu! You don't have any understanding of what the term means. You have a group of people that, for reasons I don't understand (probably as the majority seem to be children, from your pics on your school page) go to you for what they think is legitimate training.

And you have not pointed anyone in the anything close to a good direction if you have allowed them to become students of yours, honestly.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> After this, I am not going to pay much attention to those wanting to question or mock our group, Until I came here for a place to connect no one knew about us, now you all know.


 
Your group is beyond suspect, and incredibly lacking in any credibility. But you are going to ignore anyone questioning it? Yep, that's that "open mind" and "right attitude" we were mentioning.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> We have had our site blow up since I came here... And that is great... We love you guys for showing us that people can sit at their computer and go on and on and on about us!!!


 
Uh, has it occured to you that if the increased traffic is related to the threads here and on MAP, in which most posts are pointing out that you have no business teaching anyone anything, that most of the traffic isn't potential students, but people from the forums wanting to see just how bad you and your group is? A high hit count isn't really the best thing for you right now....



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Thanks so much for your time and energy...


 
I personally don't believe that this is in any way genuine, you know. Again, the amount of sarcastic endings to posts you have put like this makes it very difficult to take such "humility" seriously.


----------



## Tez3

I'm one of those that had a look at the site just to see what it was like, just two questions....why is Jon wearing a white earring and why does he have his finger up his nose?


----------



## Chris Parker

Earring = Pirate?

As to the "posture".... honestly, unles people want me to get mean, the less said the better. Suffice to say that I see no skill in the body positioning of Jon or Brad below him whatsoever, the holding of their hands is completely out-of-whack, and so on.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Oh yes. The destroyer style. I remember that.
IIRC he did eventually realize that he was being way overenthusiastic in his approach and enrolled in a school.

About the positive feedback you got from friends and family: have you evr watched American Idol? You know how some people really, really suck at singing, and are brought to tears when the jury tells them in no uncertain terms. What you often see is that a) they won't believe it, and b) 'all their friends and family' told them they were really good.

(b) is usually due to people just wanting to be friendly and encouraging and not willing to bring you down, or just to make you stop yammering about it. Not because it is actually true. And if they have no MA training themselves, how would they know anyway?


----------



## Chris Parker

Yeah... took a while, and citing stories involving the deaths of police officers to get a point across, though....

As to the reasons that "friends and family" would support Jon, I highly doubt that any of the supporters have any idea of martial arts in general, or Ninjutsu in particular outside of Jon "talking their ears off". Not what I would call a qualified opinion....


----------



## Supra Vijai

wooooow I stay away from the forums for a day and I miss out on so much! What is the finger up the nose posture that Tez mentioned _meant_ to be?


----------



## Bruno@MT

MY EYES!!! MY EYES!!!!



Ok I had a look at that website beyond the main page.
As long as that abomination is still there, with the grading requirements, the pictures that show a complete lack of any understanding of anything 'ninjutsu' and the heavily abused and misspelled terms and names.... I won't believe that the 'reformation' is anything other than a charade.


And I really, honestly believe that no real Bujinkan instructor could have looked upon that page and decided to go along with it.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Supra Vijai said:


> wooooow I stay away from the forums for a day and I miss out on so much! What is the finger up the nose posture that Tez mentioned _meant_ to be?



To be honest I think she is refering to the pic on the main page. It's a visual illusion created by the fact that the lens of the camera, his finger and his nose are directly lin line, with the camera being too close. His arm is outstretched but it almost looks as if he is touching his nose.


----------



## Chris Parker

Supra Vijai said:


> wooooow I stay away from the forums for a day and I miss out on so much! What is the finger up the nose posture that Tez mentioned _meant_ to be?


 
Honestly? Who knows.... it looks like a very bad cross between Seigan, Ichimonji, and one or two others... with a very bad hand formation to say the least!

Oh, and Bruno? You mean that will believe that the "reformation" is a charade, yes?


----------



## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Earring = Pirate?
> 
> As to the "posture".... honestly, unles people want me to get mean, the less said the better. Suffice to say that I see no skill in the body positioning of Jon or Brad below him whatsoever, the holding of their hands is completely out-of-whack, and so on.


 

I found the 'welcome uke' a bit odd, now very often I am the Uke, as often I am the Tori, just a little odd being called uke as a 'title'.
While the site had info on classes I couldn't understand what a beginner would be taught and what all the grades are, Japanese names are fine when you've been around a Japanese style for a while but for beginners or for those you want to attract in to your organisation a plain statement of what you teach would be best, too much talk of secret Ninja techniques tends to put genuine beginners off while attracting the wannabee run around the forest in rope sandals types. It had the feel of a fantasy site though the kids photos mitigated that a little that, they were doing however what I've done with children in karate, TKD and TSD so I'd have like to have seen what made it 'special' for children.
I'm the first to say I know little about swords but I'm an expert on mats! The guy with the sword on the two blue mats will very shortly be slipping between them, mark my words!


----------



## Chris Parker

And, as I explained to Jon from the get-go, the role of Uke in traditional systems is often the more senior practitioner, so it is hardly applicable to junior students as a beginning term, let alone how far off he is on the actual use of the term itself. Sigh....

Yeah, the pics were just further nails in the coffin of his competance, frankly.


----------



## Supra Vijai

Thanks, I've never actually ventured too far into the site so wasn't sure if there was another gallery somewhere with blooper/outtake style pics..


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh, there's another gallery.... and blooper may be one way of putting it.....


----------



## Supra Vijai

Oh I had a look at the "kamae" just now, I'm most likely completely off but to me it most resembles our street "non posture" or "fence" where the hands are just a guard without giving away any indication of training or skill?


----------



## Chris Parker

The lead hand is held too far out for that to be practical, it allows no striking ability, no blocking ability, and simply gives an opponent an easily reachable handle (to break those nicely extended and seperated fingers....), the body is turned too far away for it to be a "hidden" non-posture (it's too stylised), leading to more difficulty in moving without the opponent seeing it (everything would be telegraphed from that distance), the lead shoulder is too far forward, allowing no real movement there.... should I go on?


----------



## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and Bruno? You mean that will believe that the "reformation" is a charade, yes?



As long as [condition] I won't believe that the 'reformation' is anything other than a charade.

Seems grammatically fine to me.
if (condition) -> I won't believe it is anything other than a charade
which is identical to
if (condition) -> I believe it is a charade

It's just a more fancy way of saying it


----------



## Chris Parker

Ah, yes, silly me, I was reading what you wrote before you edited it.... nicely played, my friend.

(For those playing at home, the original text from Bruno was: "As long as that abomination is still there, with the grading requirements, the pictures that show a complete lack of any understanding of anything 'ninjutsu' and the heavily abused and misspelled terms and names.... I won't believe that the 'reformation' is a charade." Just sayin'.... don't like being wrong, you know.....)


----------



## Bruno@MT

Supra Vijai said:


> Oh I had a look at the "kamae" just now, I'm most likely completely off but to me it most resembles our street "non posture" or "fence" where the hands are just a guard without giving away any indication of training or skill?



Shizen no kamae is a 'non posture'

What he and Brad are doing is 'trying to look mean no kamae'
While simultaneously putting their bodies square in the way of a possible attack without a lot of flexibility to sidestep and holding out their fingers for someone to grab them and break them.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> Ah, yes, silly me, I was reading what you wrote before you edited it.... nicely played, my friend.
> 
> (For those playing at home, the original text from Bruno was: "As long as that abomination is still there, with the grading requirements, the pictures that show a complete lack of any understanding of anything 'ninjutsu' and the heavily abused and misspelled terms and names.... I won't believe that the 'reformation' is a charade." Just sayin'.... don't like being wrong, you know.....)



With my moderator skills I have the power to forever change my words and confuse you.


----------



## Chris Parker

Cool.... you want to correct that typo above then? "Kamea"? Just wondering....


----------



## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> Cool.... you want to correct that typo above then? "Kamea"? Just wondering....



That was henka


----------



## Chris Parker

See, I would have said Hensojutsu, as it was disguising what you actually meant.... and now I note the disguise is gone!


----------



## Tez3

There's a natural stance in Wado Ryu, either Migishizentai or Hidarishizentai, sort of a stood around but ready for anything stance, feet in shape of Japanese letter re, arms down by the side. It's this stance that Iain Abernethy and many other pragmatic karateka believe means the famous no first strike in karate saying as being something other than what is usually taught. It's not a defensive stance as there are strikes you do from this stance such as Tobikomizuki, it's a strike first stance. Many, myself included believe the no strike first thing means while you don't start the fight you can finish it by striking first.

Just thought I'd throw that in, show I can do the Japanese terminology thing too.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Ugh. After reading Jon's apology statement, I was hoping he was being sincere and was going to disband his group and send his students to get real training. Maybe he's not.

Jon, for us to even begin to take you remotely seriously you must do the following:

Disband your "ryu". It is ok to have a bunch of friends come together and train, but you cannot teach them. You have no ryu, you have no tradition, you have no experience. Disband.

Train in legitimate Takamatsuden arts (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan, Toshindo, or an indie organization that can be traced back to teachers from these groups.)

If you do not do these things then your "apology" makes no sense. I assumed you were going to do these things when you posted it, but I may have misread it.

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you need to show through action that you want to do what is best for you, your students, and the ninjutsu community.


----------



## Supra Vijai

Bruno@MT said:


> What he and Brad are doing is 'trying to look mean no kamae'


 
I like that! Can I steal it for future usage? Please don't get him started on Henka... I'm still sore from being shown Henka of Koku and the worst part was that it just kept coming!!  After the first 2 or 3 I was like yup, cpl of different ways to do it but it ended up being more like 15 and something tells me that was just scratching the surface :|

Oh by the way, hope you're feeling better Tez! How's the cold? All those hot toddies work?


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Well... After reading your guys posts... You just further my reasoning to keep at what Im doing.... 


P.S. I like my Gauges/Plugs "the earrings"... there 7/8 of an inch...
I bet you would all scream like little girls if you had any Mods done...BTW... Why do you care about my plugs?? It just proves to me that your all a bunch of snobs. I need no acceptance from types like yourself!!! 

I hope you guys feel awesome!!


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## Bruno@MT

Ah, the rings.

Well personally of course I would scream if someone was mutilating my body, so you are right in that regard. But leaving aside my personal opinion for a moment, it is generally not done to train, pose, or demonstrate techniques in public while wearing any sort of 'decoration'

This is not restricted to earrings, but also piercings, wedding rings, watches, belly buttons, concert wrist bands, etc. This is not only done out of propriety and etiquette, but also because it is a bad idea to wear anything that could come loose, tear out, or hook into something else while practicing. It is endangering to you and your trainingspartner.

As to the comments: nothing of what is displayed in the pictures on your website has to do with ninjutsu training. There is not a single pic that shows good form, or even something remotely resembling a technique that is actual ninjutsu. Most definitely not the pictures of you and brad. And honestly, most of the techniques look pretty sloppy as well.  As long as you leave those things in place, isn't it fairly obvious that you still don't care about learning, but only about 'feel good' and personal status?

I mean you say that you want to learn for real, so why continue with the feel good stuff? Additionally, you remember me telling you that it was against the Bujinkan rules to belong to another ninjutsu organization?


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Sure thing!!

You are the man Bruno... I will make sure to pray for you!

Whats also funny to me is I have a mental picture of you guys racing to your computers like Bat man and robin running to the Bust to flip the head push a button and slide down a pole every time I post.. I hope you guys are having fun wasting your time... P.S you will never get this time back.... HA HA HA...


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## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Sure thing!!
> 
> You are the man Bruno... I will make sure to pray for you!
> 
> Whats also funny to me is I have a mental picture of you guys racing to your computers like Bat man and robin running to the Bust to flip the head push a button and slide down a pole every time I post.. I hope you guys are having fun wasting your time... P.S you will never get this time back.... HA HA HA...



Whatever.

So why did you write that very long post in which you meantioned you had time to think, realized the error of your ways, wanted to learn, etc? It still seems you don't care a fig about actual learning. So why that post?


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## Tez3

Bruno@MT said:


> Whatever.
> 
> So why did you write that very long post in which you meantioned you had time to think, realized the error of your ways, wanted to learn, etc? It still seems you don't care a fig about actual learning. So why that post?


 
It's because whatever he says he does actually want an adult to pat him on the head and say well done.

As for the sreaming in pain because of a little earring all I'm going to say is that I've had two kids lol. there is no martial art that encourages the wearing of such things while training. Besides that, it looks really naff.

And the hot toddies are getting there lol.

I know next to nothing about Ninjutsu but these guys feel about it the way I feel about MMA, they want it to be represented in a professional, serious manner so that people take them seriously as martial artists. To see 'pretenders' coming along,stating they know it all and they are the next best thing thing sliced bread does two things, firstly it makes them laugh like hell then it annoys them when non martial artists believe this is how their art should be done. Their response is not to rant and rave it's to try and help the 'pretender', trust me not many would do that but they will here. It's a shame that response was met by a pantomime. Still at least I and a few others know more about their art.  Thanks guys.


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## Bruno@MT

I have been with my wife both times she gave birth. I cannot imagine anything more painful childbirth and the stuff that comes before and especially after. I guess having a leg amputated without anaesthetics would hurt less. It'd be over quicker in any case.

And what's amazing is that she did it twice. I mean I can see anyone going for the first kid. Even men if they could have them. You really have no real idea what is going to happen the first time, other than that it will probably not be pleasant. But having gone through 1 childbirth, and deciding to have another one...
If men had to deliver them, I doubt we'd still be around today, as a species. 

Ladies, my hat's off for you.


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## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Sure thing!!
> 
> You are the man Bruno... I will make sure to pray for you!
> 
> Whats also funny to me is I have a mental picture of you guys racing to your computers like Bat man and robin running to the Bust to flip the head push a button and slide down a pole every time I post.. I hope you guys are having fun wasting your time... P.S you will never get this time back.... HA HA HA...


 
And, frankly, you will never get the time back you waste on this "Kumori Ryu" either. I really don't see how everyone telling you that what you are doing is a bad idea, and gets you laughed out of serious conversation is in any way something you can see as evidence that you should continue doing what you're doing....

But, for everyone else, does the last line or two (about us "wasting our time") not read to you as a deliberate admission of trolling? And I'm pretty sure I read something about that being against the TOS somewhere....


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## Indagator

That is a bold assumption, Kumori, to assume that nobody else would have piercings or tunnels, let alone that others out there could not handle the pain.
Back in my Muay Thai days I regularly trained and fought through bone breakages, ligament tears, sprains and strains and other severe injuries. I've had some decent coverage with tattoos, and many piercings (face, body and I will admit that even on a drunken dare in my youth I received what's referred to as a "P.A." which is definitely right up there on the pain scale!)
Not to mention another thread on here in which a number of legitimate ninjutsu practitioners admit to tattoos, including many with large areas of coverage.
Heck, I have spent time in a country where many indigenous folk continue to practice facial tattoo - often with home made tattoo machines, or even a sort of hammer and chisel method (which is the way it was ancestrally practiced). So if it is a "I can handle more than others" kind of a thing, where do you draw the line? Surely a couple of piercings are the lower end of the scale, friend.

But honestly, what (aside from ego) does your claim to a higher threshold of pain here actually prove or achieve? What is the worth of going back and forth about who has what pierced or tattooed or branded or whatever the young folk do to their bodies these days...?

Does it legitimise your "Kumori ryu ninjutsu" or stand as testimony to its credibility?

No.

Is it relevant...?


No.


Throughout life we experience many truths, these truths can be as soft as a feather or as sharp as a sword (or anything in between of course).
Throughout your experience with MT you have experienced many swords of truth. Perhaps, brother, it is time to accept some hard truths, move on and grow through it.

Like all things in this journey, you are being challenged to move from a static state into new growth - accept it and go with the flow of the changing tides. Do not cease to move ever forwards.

If your aspiration is truly ninjutsu, then please take heed of the words of those who have spent many years - in some cases the majority of their lives - in the art, and who know what they are saying.
Their advice remains charitable, for they still continue to strive in pointing you in the right direction.

Humility can be a difficult virtue to practice, but the benefits it yields pay dividends.

Gambatte kudasai!


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## Supra Vijai

Indagator said:


> Humility can be a difficult virtue to practice, but the benefits it yields pay dividends.



Well as long as it's not the fake humility that's been pointed out so many times already


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## Burnse

Hello Kumori, 

Allow me to present myself: Multimedia Designer, 4 years, undergraduate. You don't know who I am or what I've done but allow me to suggest that the studies and projects I have undertaken have indeed been impressive. I have gleaned much knowledge from my teachers and am confident when I say I know my web design.

So just a note about your website; you've used many bold colours over the course of one page with rather large fonts. This actually destracts from the professional appearance and is the equivelant to typing in caps - it's irritating for the eye and just attention-seeking behaviour. Three colours are usually the maximum required for one page, two being preferable. 
The red on gold only works if the tones compliment each other. On that page the red is too bright and the gold has too much brown so they clash and it becomes hard to read. The bright blue of 'Discipline' is harsh and the warm blue of 'Movement' is lost in the gold. A different colour behind it to act as a backdrop or different shades of blue would help.
You could also afford to get a higher-quality image of the I.M.F logo, there's a nice one on the first page when you google-search them. To be honest I did question why someone who has been granted such a high level of prestige would only have access to a low-res image, but I know it's easy to save things as the wrong format. 
I'd suggest a new colourscheme overall. Perhaps a green and purple background to match the green glow against your title kanji, and a yellow font.


Now I have noticed there have been several attempts to correct your approach to Ninjutsu which you have dismissed as rudeness. Allow me to present you with this analogy to help you understand why they insist on doing so.

Scenario: I've been learning english for a year. I can say hello, goodbye and all those important things really well. People look at me funny and say they don't know what I'm saying or they can't understand my accent, which I think is rude so I don't talk to them. I think it's a great language So I've become an english teacher to continue showing the true beauty of the language. I'm still learning from books written in english while I teach others how to pronounce these new words I have only ever read. 
Why this is flawed: I don't know the local slang. Most conversations will go beyond the basic phrases which I'm saying so badly that most people don't understand me. I'm teaching other people how to mispronounce words and giving them the wrong meanings without realizing. They can converse in my classes perfectly but everyone else can't hold a conversation with them. 
Why this leads to correction: All the English classes here and losing students because they've heard that my students can't talk to the British let along Australians or Americans. The other teachers won't talk to me. I was just trying to show them how lovely the language could be...

Under Teacher:
"Hello, how are you?" "I am good thankyou, sir."

As a Teacher: 
"Hello, how are you?" "Beneficient a are gratitude, cousin."


It's a lovely thought but if you try to teach before you are ready or qualified, you're hurting more than helping. 

Thankyou For Your Time, And May The Spirit Of The Salmon Be With You As You Swim Upstream In Life.


P.S. I have had one web design class in four years and I barely passed.
Now go take a good hard look at the wisdom and experience of web design I have passed onto you. Just imagine how you would have felt if you'd gone to all that effort to change your website only to find out it didn't work. I honestly believe most of those changes will improve the look but I don't have the training and practice or even credentials to teach you how to make a better website. All I have is a title and a few bits I picked up from my teacher to look like I know.
Please don't do that to your Uke/students/study group. It's not fair to you or them.


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## Steve

I've been reading this thread from the beginning.  As I said, I don't have a real stake in this, so I've refrained to this point.  But since things are getting weird, I figured I'd share my opinion with the OP.

Bottom line for me is, there is nothing wrong with doing what you enjoy.  I have played Dungeons and Dragons since the 6th grade and still do so with some friends.  I've never enjoyed dressing up and LARPing, but of course I've run into people who do.  Society for Creative Anachronism, Renaissance fairs, the works.  Not my thing, but people I am genuinely fond of like it and I like them.  

I have friends with tattoos, piercings and all manner of body art.  As far as I'm concerned, if you like it, it's not illegal or overtly self destructive, and it makes you happy, by all means enjoy yourself.  Knock yourself out.

But be realistic about what you're doing.  There's nothing wrong with pretending to be a ninja in the mythical sense.  It borders on mental illness, however, if you are unable to distinguish between pretend and real life.  Of all of the things discussed in this thread, this inability to discern reality from fantasy is the only concern I have.  

If you enjoy pretending to be a ninja, I think that's great.  Have fun.  Make darts and youtube videos and whatever else you want to do.  Put on your costumes and have at it.  But understand that what you're doing is imagination.  It's a creative outlet, not a martial outlet.

To put this into context.  I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  I'm a purple belt with a legit school, but I have zero interest in learning any striking.  While I can claim to be a Mixed Martial Artist, it wouldn't be true.  I train in an art that intersects MMA, but I'm no more an MMA'ist than you are.   Now, if I wanted to *pretend *to be a UFC fighter and horse around in my garage or back yard with my friends, there's nothing wrong with that.  If I actually thought that the pretending and horsing around was ACTUAL training, I'd be in the same boat as you.


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## Steve

Just to reiterate the above, Jon, I looked at the photos on your site and you look like you're having a blast.  Have fun.  Just distinguish between what you're doing and what people like Chris Parker and others are doing.  The difference is profound.  

Your "ninjutsu" is the equivalent of baking a case with an Easy Bake Oven and they're professional pastry chefs. Doesn't make the Easy Bake cake any less delicious, but comparing it to the work of a professional pastry chef is insulting to the chef.  It undervalues the seriousness of their dedication to their craft.   

This picture in particular really looks genuine.  Keep doing that.  Just understand that it's play:


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## Aiki Lee

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Well... After reading your guys posts... You just further my reasoning to keep at what Im doing....
> 
> I hope you guys feel awesome!!



So basically, you just admitted that your "apology" was a big fat lie?


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## Bob Hubbard

The OP no longer has posting access to MartialTalk.


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## Steve

Ah well.  Maybe he'll get to see my posts anyway.


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## Tez3

stevebjj said:


> Ah well. Maybe he'll get to see my posts anyway.


 
and hopefully gets those mats fixed together


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## Supra Vijai

stevebjj said:


> Ah well. Maybe he'll get to see my posts anyway.


 
I liked your post Steve


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