# Deadliest pressure point - did I need to know?



## Lynne

The other evening, one of my instructors had me and my partner revisit two basic cross wrist grips.  He instructed me to twist hard ("wind up") in delivering a chop to my partner's jawline.  He said if I were to hit someone on the jawline pressure point with the appropriate speed and core strength that they would go down and probably wouldn't get up.

Then, he mentioned that the jawline pressure point wasn't the deadliest pressure point in the body, that there is a small bone just below the sternum that can break (this is my understanding of the location - it was noisy in our Dojang and hard to hear).  When it does, it can pierce several organs and your assailant will die.

Ok, I will be sparring when I get to orange belt, my next belt.  I observe sparring and note that a lot of punches and kicks go to the solar plexus.  What happens if one hits high?  An ahp chagi is such a powerful kick.  What if you plant an ahp chagi or any kick in that area?

I've not heard any rumors about that bone (whatever that bone is - sorry to be so cryptic) shattering and killing anyone.  Certainly people's sternums get broken in sparring.

Is this "little" bone something to be wary of when sparring?  Does it require immense force to break it and, therefore, I shouldn't worry about it?


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## Jade Tigress

I"ve never heard of that being a deadly pressure point, but I believe what you're referring to is called the Xyphoid Process.


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## Kacey

The name of the bone is the xiphoid process, and yes, if it breaks it can cause severe damage, by puncturing one or more organs.  That's why when you learn CPR, they teach you to avoid the xiphoid process.

From Wikipedia:



> Pressure on the xiphoid process should be avoided when administering chest compressions in CPR, as this can cause the xiphoid process to break off and be driven into the heart lining and muscle, resulting in punctures or lacerations of the heart muscle.



However, to intentionally kill someone that way, you would have to be very precise, and hit a very specific target with small tool at just the right angle.  Also, because the xiphoid process is a bone, not a nerve nexus, it is not technically a pressure point, at least not the way I define pressure point; it's more like the trachea, which, if crushed, can kill someone.


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## MA-Caver

Kacey said:


> The name of the bone is the xiphoid process, and yes, if it breaks it can cause severe damage, by puncturing one or more organs.  That's why when you learn CPR, they teach you to avoid the xiphoid process.
> 
> From Wikipedia:
> 
> However, to intentionally kill someone that way, you would have to be very precise, and hit a very specific target with small tool at just the right angle.  Also, because the xiphoid process is a bone, not a nerve nexus, it is not technically a pressure point, at least not the way I define pressure point; it's more like the trachea, which, if crushed, can kill someone.


On the trachea I've had effectively thwarted attacks by striking this area but just hard enough to cause the gag/choke reflex which is usually enough to get away. I've never hit it full force because I know of the potential for killing by asphyxiation. 

As far as the claims that *this* or *that* spot is "the most deadliest pressure point"...


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## Lynne

Oh, thank you both, very much.  Not a pressure point, got it.

I'm glad to know it's not something I have to worry about.  I'm a newbie, so I ask all these dumb questions.  But you know, when someone throws out a little information like that, it kind of sticks in the mind.  Me, I think too much - what if's.

Thank you for the information


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## Lynne

MA-Caver said:


> On the trachea I've had effectively thwarted attacks by striking this area but just hard enough to cause the gag/choke reflex which is usually enough to get away. I've never hit it full force because I know of the potential for killing by asphyxiation.
> 
> As far as the claims that *this* or *that* spot is "the most deadliest pressure point"...


I guess "the deadliest" is a misnomer.

What kind of attacks were you under, MA, that you had to defend yourself with Martial Arts?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

There is a lot of myth in the martial arts. This is one of them. It is NOT the deadlist pressure point, and the notion that it is, via the mechanisms described, is kinda silly, actually.

It's called the "xyphoid process". It has soft tissue attachments, including fascia from the diaphragm...a large sheet of muscle that seperates the contents of your chest cavity from the contents of your abdomen, and aids in breathing. A broken xyphoid process will likely be quite painful, and even lead to a serious knocking out of breath. However, the organs behind it have an apron of fat over them called the Omental Bursa, and it is quite thick, and difficult to knock a bone through with single -- or even multiple -- shots. The inferior vena cava -- the return blood vessel that brings spent blood from the lower body, back to the heart -- is back there, but the anatomical relationships in situ are incompatible with an anterior-to-posterior blow to the inferior sternum. 

Can you hurt someone? Sure. Can you break off the tip to end the fight? It's possible, but quite difficult, and I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket if you find yourself fighting for your life...that region gets hit a lot by lifetime martial artists in training and competition, and after more than 30 years around this stuff, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who have had this broken. And each of them recieved hundreds to thousands of blows there in their training, before one that caught them just right. They are all, incidentally, still alive and doing well.

Take those sorts of things with a grain of salt when you hear them. Blunt trauma injuries can kill with even a simple punch to the face; I have an old coroners textbook with tons of pics of blunt trauma kills from absurd injuries, and the "struck victim" martial arts injuries are from really unlikely things: Karate guy throws kick to nuts, but the bad guy slips on a banana peel and falls forehad first into the karate guys kick, and just happens to get hit just right to cave in the skull kind of stuff. Yet, kicks to the forehead are rarely lethal, and are more likely to hurt your foot. One could make the statement that a kick to the head is a killing blow, because at least once, it has been. But it's a heckuva stretch, considering the number of kicks to the head that get traded in training, sparring, competitive matches, and so on.

If you fear for your life, just remember the old mantra, "eyes, temple, throat and knees". And even then, in the chaos of self-defense adrenaline rushes, you're just not that likely to do more than cause pain. The rest is ego fictions we tell ourselves to make us feel more dangerous than we really are.

Be good,

Dave


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## MA-Caver

Lynne said:


> I guess "the deadliest" is a misnomer.
> 
> What kind of attacks were you under, MA, that you had to defend yourself with Martial Arts?


Walking at night along the streets trying to get home, because I missed the last bus, and this guy comes up asking for a light, when I try to give it to him he goes to swing at me, I duck and swing/aim backfist/sword (palm laid flat) and catch him along the adam's apple and he staggered with one hand to his throat and the other trying to reach out and grab me but I was already out of reach by then. 

Other one, earlier in my life, at a skating rink (with 4 wheels per skate/shoe ... remember those?) some bully (with friends) kept trying to push me off my wheels and again (? .. no first time I tried it) I did a slashing back swordhand to the throat, he went down but wasn't out and not in any real danger, just hurting. I skated off to find my friends and luckily we outnumbered them and they gave up on retaliation.


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## Lynne

MA-Caver said:


> Walking at night along the streets trying to get home, because I missed the last bus, and this guy comes up asking for a light, when I try to give it to him he goes to swing at me, I duck and swing/aim backfist/sword (palm laid flat) and catch him along the adam's apple and he staggered with one hand to his throat and the other trying to reach out and grab me but I was already out of reach by then.
> 
> Other one, earlier in my life, at a skating rink (with 4 wheels per skate/shoe ... remember those?) some bully (with friends) kept trying to push me off my wheels and again (? .. no first time I tried it) I did a slashing back swordhand to the throat, he went down but wasn't out and not in any real danger, just hurting. I skated off to find my friends and luckily we outnumbered them and they gave up on retaliation.


 
Two attacks are plenty in my humble opinion.  It's great you had the skill regarding the street attack.  I wonder if that idiot ever attacked anyone again?  Then again, that's why they are called dumb criminals


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## Lynne

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> There is a lot of myth in the martial arts. This is one of them. It is NOT the deadlist pressure point, and the notion that it is, via the mechanisms described, is kinda silly, actually.
> 
> It's called the "xyphoid process". It has soft tissue attachments, including fascia from the diaphragm...a large sheet of muscle that seperates the contents of your chest cavity from the contents of your abdomen, and aids in breathing. A broken xyphoid process will likely be quite painful, and even lead to a serious knocking out of breath. However, the organs behind it have an apron of fat over them called the Omental Bursa, and it is quite thick, and difficult to knock a bone through with single -- or even multiple -- shots. The inferior vena cava -- the return blood vessel that brings spent blood from the lower body, back to the heart -- is back there, but the anatomical relationships in situ are incompatible with an anterior-to-posterior blow to the inferior sternum.
> 
> Can you hurt someone? Sure. Can you break off the tip to end the fight? It's possible, but quite difficult, and I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket if you find yourself fighting for your life...that region gets hit a lot by lifetime martial artists in training and competition, and after more than 30 years around this stuff, I can count on one hand the number of people I know who have had this broken. And each of them recieved hundreds to thousands of blows there in their training, before one that caught them just right. They are all, incidentally, still alive and doing well.
> 
> Take those sorts of things with a grain of salt when you hear them. Blunt trauma injuries can kill with even a simple punch to the face; I have an old coroners textbook with tons of pics of blunt trauma kills from absurd injuries, and the "struck victim" martial arts injuries are from really unlikely things: Karate guy throws kick to nuts, but the bad guy slips on a banana peel and falls forehad first into the karate guys kick, and just happens to get hit just right to cave in the skull kind of stuff. Yet, kicks to the forehead are rarely lethal, and are more likely to hurt your foot. One could make the statement that a kick to the head is a killing blow, because at least once, it has been. But it's a heckuva stretch, considering the number of kicks to the head that get traded in training, sparring, competitive matches, and so on.
> 
> If you fear for your life, just remember the old mantra, "eyes, temple, throat and knees". And even then, in the chaos of self-defense adrenaline rushes, you're just not that likely to do more than cause pain. The rest is ego fictions we tell ourselves to make us feel more dangerous than we really are.
> 
> Be good,
> 
> Dave


Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process.  I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too.  I do question things.  I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!

If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?"  I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.


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## MA-Caver

Lynne said:


> Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process.  I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too.  I do question things.  I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!
> 
> If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?"  I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.


Well in any for-real situation... you strike where you can and be effective with it. Sometimes the opportunity doesn't come up. That's why you learn more potential strike areas so if one doesn't come up another one will. :asian:


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## jks9199

It's been well covered...  Use of the xyphoid process as a "deadly pressure point" is kind of like the old "drive the bones of the nose into the brain" idea.

Yeah, it could happen.  But it's not really likely.  And it's not really likely to be really effective...  I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm having to use lethal force hand-to-hand, I want something that's likely to pretty much drop the ******* on the spot.  As in DRT (Dead Right There).  I don't want to have him walking around for a while before some bone tip happens to either cause enough internal bleeding or hit something important enough...

For what it's worth...  The deadliest pressure point is like the deadliest insult.  The worst, deadliest insult is simply the one that gets you killed; the worst, deadliest pressure point is simply the one that kills someone.


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## Lynne

MA-Caver said:


> Well in any for-real situation... you strike where you can and be effective with it. Sometimes the opportunity doesn't come up. That's why you learn more potential strike areas so if one doesn't come up another one will. :asian:


I was just thinking about this the other day.  I was wondering if in the few short weeks (9) I've been training if I'd learned anything I could use if I were attacked.

When I think about it, I've learned quite a few.  Some of the chops and palm strikes I've learned could knock someone out of commission if I had the opportunity to strike them in those areas.

Then, there is the self-defense training for women I took about 18 years ago or so.  I haven't forgotten all of those techniques.  Hope I never have to use any of them.


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## Carol

Lynne said:


> Thank you, Dave, for explaining the xyphoid process.  I find that fascinating and the myths a little amusing, too.  I do question things.  I mean, if it were that easy to break such a "deadly" bone, we probably wouldn't be sparring at all!
> 
> If I were attacked, I doubt I'd be thinking, "Now, how can I get to that bone and push it into such-and-such place?"  I imagine I'd be thinking groin strikes and palm strikes to the nose...I hope.



This can be a deadly strike, but there is quite a bit of context to it.  As Dr. Dave mentioned, it's a difficult bone to break.  That is why many old traditions called for hand-conditioning to toughen up the hands and fingers.  The xyphoid process was then attacked not with a kick or a punch, but with a spearhand strike (poke) of a well-conditioned hand.  It would typically take something as targeted as a spearhand to penetrate the protective layers of tissue around the xyphoid process to actually break the bone.  

It wouldn't be my choice of a strike to through, personally. I'm not big in to hand conditioning, nor do I really know how to throw the strike....which means that I'd likely end up with few broken fingers instead of an incapacitated opponent.  Plus, for few months of the year, we Northeasterners wear too many clothes to truly maximise the effectiveness of the spearhand without using an external weapon such as a kubotan.

I suspect in live situations, the Xyphoid Process gets broken most often by stomps in gang-type beatings.  A person gets beaten, falls to the ground, pushed in to a supine position and then stomped upon or jumped upon by one of their attackers.


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## MA-Caver

Lynne said:


> I was just thinking about this the other day.  I was wondering if in the few short weeks (9) I've been training if I'd learned anything I could use if I were attacked.
> 
> When I think about it, I've learned quite a few.  Some of the chops and palm strikes I've learned could knock someone out of commission if I had the opportunity to strike them in those areas.
> 
> Then, there is the self-defense training for women I took about 18 years ago or so.  I haven't forgotten all of those techniques.  Hope I never have to use any of them.



Well be careful,  the Austin Powers "Judo Chop!" is a real technique but (not Judo) it needs to be done precisely and in a way that it doesn't break your hand against solid bone.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

jks9199 said:


> It's been well covered... Use of the xyphoid process as a "deadly pressure point" is kind of like the old "drive the bones of the nose into the brain" idea.





jks9199 said:


> Yeah, it could happen. But it's not really likely. And it's not really likely to be really effective... I don't know about anyone else, but if I'm having to use lethal force hand-to-hand, I want something that's likely to pretty much drop the ******* on the spot. As in DRT (Dead Right There). I don't want to have him walking around for a while before some bone tip happens to either cause enough internal bleeding or hit something important enough...
> 
> For what it's worth... The deadliest pressure point is like the deadliest insult. The worst, deadliest insult is simply the one that gets you killed; the worst, deadliest pressure point is simply the one that kills someone.


 

The strike to the nose that forced the bone up into the brain was in fact a real technique that was taught and worked consistently in military engagements

Of course, it worked consistently when the strike was made with the butt of a rifle, not simply a hand

The truth is that while this technique could be successful, you have to understand that the cartilage in the nose will crush first before any contact with the bone is made. If the penetration for the weapon hand does not follow through significantly, all that you will accomplish is superficial damage to the facial structure. Such damage can, and in most cases will cause sufficient trauma to end or help end that assault, but in most cases wont cause death.

*Concerning shots to the trachea*

Can you say; *SOFT TISSUE SWELLING*?

When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you dont know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.

Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against the fool trying to hit on you at the bar (for example).

You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> *Concerning shots to the trachea*
> 
> Can you say; *SOFT TISSUE SWELLING*?
> 
> When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you dont know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.
> 
> Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against the fool trying to hit on you at the bar (for example).
> 
> You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.



Owch... just goes to show why one of the most important aspects of training is control, be it speed, power, or technique. 

One interesting way to catch an opponent off-guard, though, is to put your forefinger and middle finger (together tightly) forcefully into the hollow above the point where the clavicles meet and, hooking slightly, press down. Doesn't always work, especially with big people, but it might just give you control of a situation.


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## MA-Caver

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> *Concerning shots to the trachea*
> 
> Can you say; *SOFT TISSUE SWELLING*?
> 
> When you state that you did this to an attacker and just caused enough traumas to assist you in escaping the assault, you dont know that for certain. Such a strike can lead to Soft-Tissue-Swelling and result in death after you have left the scene. This was a problem for Law-Enforcement Officers in many places over the years. There was a time when Law-Enforcement Officers would strike a perpetrator across the throat to gain control of him, cuff him and throw him in the back of their cruiser. By the time that they got back to the station to book the perp, he would have already suffocated in the back seat.
> 
> Strikes to the throat are very good techniques to apply in cases where you are truly in eminent danger, but not for use against the fool trying to hit on you at the bar (for example).
> 
> You must always be able to justify you action if called upon to do so. Always be sure that you can do so.


I've wrestled with the second incident many times and worried, pondered if I might not have left him dying instead of incapacitated. But I'll restate that I did not hit him full force and while it doesn't take much to induce soft tissue swelling I feel reasonably confident (even now) that my strike wasn't (hard) enough to induce such a condition. It was however enough to enable to me to get the hell out of dodge -- in a manner of speaking. That particular neighborhood in D.C. at the time (late 70's) wasn't a healthy place for a skinny white boy like me at 0200 hours. So either way, I think I was fairly justified. 
Irregardless, the whole incident taught me a lot, mostly that I do need to be very-very careful about my fighting skills. I have no desire to take a human life ... no matter how low it is.


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## Lynne

Then again, the civilian is taught how to fight, not necessarily how to kill, correct?  At least at the lower belt levels?  I suppose a powerful chop to the jaw could break someone's neck?  Or induce the soft tissue damage. I guess I mean our intent is defensive for the most part.

In my naievete, I was surprised how easy it is to kill someone.  Grandmaster Byrne taught a grappling clinic at our school and he explained, very clearly, how a commando might take someone down (fatally) in an instant.  Now, the students did not practice that technique duing the clinic obviously.  Master Byrne was making a point about the usefulness of mixed martial arts and their various applications.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo. He was forced to deal with the incoming attacks with his body. When he came back on leave later in the year I asked him to teach a seminar for our students. He chose to teach his seminar on The Field Applications of Kicho Hyung Il Bu. After seeing what he had derived from this most basic hyung from our curriculum, as well as others, it was clear to my class that there are many lethal techniques and movements within what we see simply as blocks, strikes and kicks 

Please give Grandmaster Byrne my regards when you see him again.


*TANG SOO!!!*


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## Lynne

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo. He was forced to deal with the incoming attacks with his body. When he came back on leave later in the year I asked him to teach a seminar for our students. He chose to teach his seminar on &#8220;The Field Applications of Kicho Hyung Il Bu&#8221;. After seeing what he had derived from this most basic hyung from our curriculum, as well as others, it was clear to my class that there are many lethal techniques and movements within what we see simply as blocks, strikes and kicks&#8230;
> 
> Please give Grandmaster Byrne my regards when you see him again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *TANG SOO!!!*


Hi Master Penfil,

I will certainly give Grandmaster Byrne your regards.  I hope he comes to our school again soon.  Master Mitchell usually accompanies him.  She is a terrific lady.

That's fascinating about Kicho Hyung Il Bu, our basic form #1, what I've been told is nothing more than a warmup really.  Ha. (It is a good warmup though!) The Field Applications - Wow.  Exile had mentioned in another thread about how the Hyungs really weren't about balance and control but some nasty moves.

I had wondered about those blocks, such as Hadon Makee.  I was wondering how I would use one if I were attacked.  I thought about the twisting from the core and preparation I was learning.  It seemed more like a punch to me the more I though about it.  If someone were kicking at you or rushing you and you "blocked" them with the proper preparation, it would be rather painful to them. 

Not too long ago, we were doing punching drills.  We were hitting the Wavemasters with reverse punches.  I did one particularly well and the thing started to fall over and actually hit someone in the head.  I had no idea I could do that - lack of upper body strength or so I thought. I had twisted hard with offensive stepping and used proper arm preparation.

I start sparring in about two months or so. I wonder how a low block is used in sparring.  Well, I've seen people position their arms in front of their thighs as they bounce.  I don't think I've actually seen anyone block a kick with a low block though.  Then again, I'm usually doing one-on-one kicking during the sparring.


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## howard

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> One of my students has been serving in the Army since just after 9-11. *While in the field in Iraq there were many instances when he and his men ran short or out of ammo*...


Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.

How can any of our troops run out of ammo?


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## Blindside

MA-Caver said:


> Well be careful, the Austin Powers "Judo Chop!" is a real technique but (not Judo) it needs to be done precisely and in a way that it doesn't break your hand against solid bone.


 
My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too.  He just did what he saw on TV.

Lamont


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## Lynne

Blindside said:


> My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too. He just did what he saw on TV.
> 
> Lamont


So, is the little prodigy in MA training now???  How is the kid that got knocked out?


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## Lynne

howard said:


> Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.
> 
> How can any of our troops run out of ammo?


I'm curious, too.  Wonder if the government was fiddling around with paperwork, etc.  You know, not signing off on orders for shipment of arms and that sort of thing.


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## Blindside

Lynne said:


> So, is the little prodigy in MA training now??? How is the kid that got knocked out?


 
Nope, he isn't exactly the most disciplined person in the world (8 years old was a long time ago for him).  I never heard what happened to the other kid, but I assume hes fine.  I've stopped people in sparring with neck shots, but they usually result in a "stun" rather than a KO.  Person is usually fine after about 15/20 seconds, but they often don't remember getting hit.  

Lamont


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## Blindside

howard said:


> Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.
> 
> How can any of our troops run out of ammo?


 
Have you looked at the price of ammo lately?  Military demand has outstripped the standard government contractors ability to produce it, we're using US civilian companies as well as going to outside countries (like Israel) to produce enough ammo for the troops.  Its a supply problem.

Lamont


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## jks9199

howard said:


> Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.
> 
> How can any of our troops run out of ammo?


Probably 'cause in the real world, guns need to be reloaded, and you can't carry but so much gear and ammo at any given time.

Movieland... guns never run dry, and if they do, spare magazines/clips are always available and full.

Real world... If you carry 46 rounds, you've got 46 rounds.  Not 50.  Not 47.


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## MBuzzy

howard said:


> Given the tens of billions we're spending over there, that seems pretty damned inexcusable.
> 
> How can any of our troops run out of ammo?


 
While this is pretty far off topic for this thread, just thought I'd add something in.....

I have heard a few times in the news, papers, rumors, etc that the military has or had an ammo shortage.  This is only a half truth perpetuated by media in my opinion.  The military did have a huge ammo shortage - in the US....because it was all being shipped over seas.  I don't believe that the forces in Iraq or Afghanistan had to deal with TOO much in terms of ammo shortages.  Now, any shortage is inexcusable in the case of combat or training - but no matter what we do there will be supply shortages.  In every war in every country, no one will EVER have everything that they want or need - that is simply the reality of war and the military.

As for troops actually in combat running out of ammo - that is not unheard of.  Every soldier is typically issued a double combat load to leave base.  Let's just say that that's A LOT of ammo.  Too much to carry in fact, but once you've left base, that's all you have.  If you encounter multiple fire fights, or have to fire a lot or are firing on semi or fully automatic.....even a double combat load can go quick.  Until I fired in three shot burst, I had no concept of how quickly 30 rounds can go through a rifle if you're not consciencious of your ammo consumption.

I think if we would like to discuss this topic any more, it probably needs its own thread....


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Blindside said:


> My 8 year old cousin with no training what so ever, KOed a kid on the playground with a chop to the neck.... got suspended for it too. He just did what he saw on TV.





Blindside said:


> Lamont


 

Lamont,
There is more to your statement than most martial artists in todays world realize

I began my training in 1972. At that time Bruce Lee was rolling out Enter the Dragon and very few people really had a clue as to what martial arts were or what a Karate Chop was.

If we got into a fight with someone on the street we had a superior position over them because at that time there werent any dojos/dojangs that I can remember as being watered down. It didnt matter if you were training in Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Isshinryu, or any number of other systems. It didnt matter if your system was Korean, Japanese, Okinawan or Chinese. Every school (at least here in Detroit) was HARD CORE in its training and application. There was no false sense of security. If you earned a Black Belt from any of those schools at that time, you could defend yourself in a street-fight, and have a Leg-Up (no pun intended) on the other guy(s).

Today however, due in part to television, the internet and action films to bullies are exposed to martial arts techniques as well. Think about it; a bully may not go to a martial arts school to be honed into a fighting machine, but with enough exposure (visually) and a good imagination, over time a serious street fighter can develop the ability to throw powerful kicks and punches too. With the introduction to events such as the UFC (Gracie Ju Jutsu) and other MMA shows on television and their computers that so many clamor to watch, the average street fighter has gain an education in how to up his/her gave considerably over the past 30 years.

We, as martial artists have to continue to seek out the UPGRADE in our training in order to stay ahead of the game. I had a conversation this past week with a dear friend and mentor of mine in the Tang Soo Do community about the way that I teach my class in comparison to the standard in our community. What I stated (and he agreed) was that; at the turn of the century (1899-1900) the Okinawans were spreading their art to Japan. The original name used by Funakoshi was NOT Karate-Do, it was Karate-Jutsu. The term Jutsu referred to the practical application in the system as opposed to Do which reefers to the WAY. The WAY was designed to remove the more dangerous interpretation of the techniques and replace them with focus on the development of mind, body and spirit. The overall focus was moved from developing deadly response to assault to character development.

In many ways this was a change that was good for the time, as the Samurai era had come to an end and the need to defend ones self against sword swinging aggressors was a thing of the (recent) past.

I have come to a point in my training where I feel that quite possibly the change from Jutsu to Do removed too much of the practical application, and we as martial artists have come to believe that the art that we train in will provide us with a certain level of defensive ability that is simply wont as it is commonly taught at this time by the majority of school today.

It is my goal as an instructor to merge these two important pieces of our martial arts; the Jutsu and the Do, with a balance that delivers to my students, both the character building and the serious defensive tactical benefits of good training.


Tang Soo Do as a system contains most of the tools needed to accomplish this goal. There are principles and philosophies that I have learned from other systems that have certainly assisted me in developing and taking what I teach to a higher level. It should be understood that there isnt any one system that has all of the answers. Each system specializes in certain techniques. We, as Tang Soo Do practitioners (as well as those in Tae Kwon Do and like systems) are excellent kicker. Japanese and Okinawan systems teach extremely powerful punching technique, Aiki Ju Jutsu systems teach excellent joint locking and manipulation techniques. 

Some systems like Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan and others from this lineage are great at proximities (distances) that allow for the set up of long range kicking and punching, and in many cases tend to be what can be labeled as linear fighting systems, while systems like Isshinryu (Okinawan) tend to be better at closer proximity and apply (traditionally) all kicks to the floating ribs and lower. In some Okinawan schools the kicking is restricted to the hip joints and groin and lower, as these systems teach their students about quadrant fighting techniques (the upper limbs defend and attack the upper body while the lower limbs defend and attack the lower body. These systems traditionally teach the use of moving on angles to evade and counter attack as opposed to moving in a linier fashion as well.

Wing Chun (Chinese) trains in the closest proximity of any (Stand-Up) system that I have ever seen or trained in. This is what I consider a true CQC (Close-Quarters-Combat) system.

Over the past 36 years I have trained extensively in all of these systems as well as several others. I continue to call what I teach Tang Soo Do as I believe that what KJN Hwang Kee wrote in his master text was completely accurate as to the origin of his art, and all martial arts in general. None of us (myself included) came out of the whom kicking, punching and screaming ( in the fashion that they teach us in martial arts training) everything that we will ever learn or establish as our WAY, our Do came from others who came before us. It is our responsibility to make ours, a Life-Long journey to search out constant Upgrade in all that we do, and to remember that while we continue to seek perfection, we will never achieve it. The attainment of perfection is not our true goal; it is the journey that we take along the WAY

*According the KJN Hwang Kee; *
*Its ALL Tang Soo Do. Keep an open mind, and keep training!!!*

*(My A.D.D. kicked in somewhere in the middle of this post. I hope that it isnt too long or too far off o**f the original subject)*​ 

*TANG SOO!!!*


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## Kreth

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> The strike to the nose that forced the bone up into the brain was in fact a real technique that was taught and worked consistently in military engagements
> 
> Of course, it worked consistently when the strike was made with the butt of a rifle, not simply a hand


I'm gonna call "urban legend" on this one. I don't have time to search Snopes right now, but I vaguely recall them having a page debunking this.


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## Tez3

Kreth said:


> I'm gonna call "urban legend" on this one. I don't have time to search Snopes right now, but I vaguely recall them having a page debunking this.


 
I think you should reread this one, I think you've missed the irony there. Master Jay wasn't saying it worked!


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Tez3 said:


> I think you should reread this one, I think you've missed the irony there. Master Jay wasn't saying it worked!


 
Tez3,
It does work... if the strike is made with the butt of your rifle (LOL)...


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## Tez3

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Tez3,
> It does work... if the strike is made with the butt of your rifle (LOL)...


 
That's why I suggested he re-read it! I was just in too much of a hurry to write it all out! (I had to clean the Dojo lol!)


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