# Belt fees/Promotion fees



## TSDTexan (Mar 15, 2017)

What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?

And how many ranks in your school/system?


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## kuniggety (Mar 15, 2017)

My last school, nothing. This one has actual "exams" and charge like $25 which is basically just the price of the belt. This is BJJ so adult ranks are white -> blue -> purple -> brown -> black.

I guess I wasn't paying for it back then but I think the karate school I went to as a kid had a similar model of essentially just paying for your new belt when you tested. The other martial arts I've studied haven't used belts.

This seems to be a sore topic for some but I've always seen paying for belt tested as just another way to milk more money out of students. They're already paying for their tuition, but if they want to actually advance or get recognition for the work they've put in then they need to fork over more money.


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## Headhunter (Mar 15, 2017)

20 quid normally I think. Black belt tests from am oversees instructor who comes over to test people is 85


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## dancingalone (Mar 15, 2017)

Nothing.  I charge an all-inclusive tuition fee that covers the cost of belts, manuals, etc. as students advance.  If a black belt wants certification through the three organizations we participate with, I do charge the actual cost of registering them along with a small handling fee (like $20).


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2017)

No promotion fees. My instructor does run occasional rank eval seminars - basically just a two hour seminar (which might cost $25 or so) followed by a bunch of rolling so the assembled instructors can take a look at students and decide who might be ready to go up in rank. However attendance at these events is not required to be promoted. It's just a way to make sure the assembled instructors can see and discuss where you're at. If you show up for class and perform at the requisite level consistently, you will get promoted regardless. It might happen a few weeks or months earlier if you make it to one of the events, but that's not such a big deal considering it's normally 2-3 years in-between belt levels in BJJ anyway.

The belts are white, blue, purple, brown, and black. Making it to black typically takes 10-15 years.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?
> 
> And how many ranks in your school/system?


I charge nothing. I should (I lose a few bucks at every promotion, for the cost of the belt, and my fees are very low), but I don't. I know a few instructors in NGA who charge a minimal fee for testing (something in the $30 range). Most charge at least $10-15 for promotion certificate and belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?
> 
> And how many ranks in your school/system?


Sorry, forgot to reply to the last part. I'll give you two answers on belts, to cover what I know of NGA.

At my school, student ranks are white, yellow, orange, brown, and black (white stripe, shodan). Instructor is black (white stripe and red stripe, nidan). Senior Instructor is black (white stripe, 2 red stripes, sandan).

In the mainline of NGA, most schools follow the NGAA's ranks. Student ranks are white, yellow, blue, green, purple, brown. Instructor ranks are black (1 yellow stripe, shodan) through black (5 yellow stripes, godan). Technically, there exists a 6th dan rank, but it has never yet been awarded by the head of the NGAA (who wears a red belt, no stripes, I think). There is some variation in dan (black belt) ranks outside the NGAA. Some have gone to a 10-dan system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> My last school, nothing. This one has actual "exams" and charge like $25 which is basically just the price of the belt. This is BJJ so adult ranks are white -> blue -> purple -> brown -> black.
> 
> I guess I wasn't paying for it back then but I think the karate school I went to as a kid had a similar model of essentially just paying for your new belt when you tested. The other martial arts I've studied haven't used belts.
> 
> This seems to be a sore topic for some but I've always seen paying for belt tested as just another way to milk more money out of students. They're already paying for their tuition, but if they want to actually advance or get recognition for the work they've put in then they need to fork over more money.


I can understand why you'd see it that way. I think some instructors see it as just a different way of billing. If I charge you $70/month and $60 once a year for a promotion, that's the same as charging you $75/month, assuming you average a promotion once a year. And since some tests require a lot of work by the instructor (time away from teaching, etc.), I can see a valid reason for those to cost a bit more. If I had to do testing outside regular class times (which I'd have to do for brown and black right now, because I have nobody else to teach classes), I'd charge something to cover that extra time. If I could do it all within normal classes, I'd be disinclined to charge extra for it.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?
> 
> And how many ranks in your school/system?



At the BJJ school I train at now they don't charge anything for belt exams as they don't do any kind of formal testing. When the head instructor sees that you're ready and when you've had your current rank for at least the minimal length of time, usually four months or so, you get a stripe on your belt. After you get so many stripes you go up a belt. The belt order is white, blue, purple, brown, black, and then red for the very few most elite. To go from white to blue I believe you need four stripes and I believe you need more stripes to go up a belt for the higher belts. Im not sure if you have to pay anything to go up a belt as I have not yet gone up a belt although I have gotten a stripe.

At my Karate school they have formal tests every four months or so. How much you pay to test depends on the belt you're testing for. The higher the belt the more the test costs since its longer and has more material. When I tested for yellow belt, the belt right after white, the test cost $5. Its a five dollar increase for each consecutive belt. There are ten belts from white to black and that includes white and black. When I took the black belt test it cost $55.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 16, 2017)

My School charged about 30 for the "test" from white - double tip red belt (White, yellow, orange, green, brown, red). It is the Dan test that is overly expensive. I believe my first dan test was 300.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> This seems to be a sore topic for some but I've always seen paying for belt tested as just another way to milk more money out of students. They're already paying for their tuition, but if they want to actually advance or get recognition for the work they've put in then they need to fork over more money.



When you pay for a belt test you're paying for the instructors. Testing a student takes time and skill so that's what you're paying for, the instructor's time and skill. Now some schools such as the BJJ school I train at don't test and thus don't charge anything but for schools that do test, the idea of testing is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. Naturally you want to succeed when you test and so you've got that mental and psychological pressure you have to deal with. Sure, an instructor might be able to tell to some degree when a student is ready by watching them in class but how a student performs during practice when they're not being tested is different than how they preform under the pressure of being tested. That's the point of the test, to add that mental and psychological challenge.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> My School charged about 30 for the "test" from white - double tip red belt (White, yellow, orange, green, brown, red). It is the Dan test that is overly expensive. I believe my first dan test was 300.



I do see that in some Tae Kwon Do schools, where the test for the first black belt, the first Dan, is overly expensive. Some TKD schools charge $500 or more for the first dan test. Not all TKD schools are like that but its sad how its become so commercialized.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Not all TKD schools are like that but its sad how its become so commercialized.


What is sadder is that some schools have to do some commercialization to be able to stay active.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> After you get so many stripes you go up a belt. The belt order is white, blue, purple, brown, black, and then red for the very few most elite. To go from white to blue I believe you need four stripes and I believe you need more stripes to go up a belt for the higher belts.


FYI - the standard in BJJ is 4 stripes in-between belts all the way up to black. In most schools, stripes are awarded on a more informal basis than belts, just as a reminder that the instructor has noticed you are progressing. Most schools don't have detailed requirements for stripes. It's not uncommon for a student to skip stripes (say, jump from 1 stripes to 3 stripes or from 2 stripes to the next belt). Some schools don't even use them at all. There are schools which have formal requirements (in terms of time in grade or demonstration of specific techniques), but they are in the minority.


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## kuniggety (Mar 16, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> When you pay for a belt test you're paying for the instructors. Testing a student takes time and skill so that's what you're paying for, the instructor's time and skill. Now some schools such as the BJJ school I train at don't test and thus don't charge anything but for schools that do test, the idea of testing is that it tests the student's performance under pressure. Naturally you want to succeed when you test and so you've got that mental and psychological pressure you have to deal with. Sure, an instructor might be able to tell to some degree when a student is ready by watching them in class but how a student performs during practice when they're not being tested is different than how they preform under the pressure of being tested. That's the point of the test, to add that mental and psychological challenge.



I see the reason but I just don't agree with it. If I go to a university, I don't pay extra for the "instructor's time" when it's exam time. That's just part of the tuition that I'm paying.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 16, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> What is sadder is that some schools have to do some commercialization to be able to stay active.



No, all schools have to operate with a business mentality to stay open.  Expenses in a business are generally quite high, so money needs to come in.

What's sad is when business start using shady practices or misleading people.  These are short term thinkers though, long term business success means keeping customers happy and delivering a high quality service with good customer service.


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## Mujician (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't know the grading fees at my school (Wado Ryu Karate) yet as I have only just joined. However, I joined as a purple belt after an 18 year break. After gaining 1st Dan the instructor doesn't charge any class fees.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I see the reason but I just don't agree with it. If I go to a university, I don't pay extra for the "instructor's time" when it's exam time. That's just part of the tuition that I'm paying.



I see what you mean, so perhaps, how about if every several months they were to run a class in which all the students were tested and so that whenever they ran a test each and every student would either pass or fail, and that the students don't pay any extra to go to the class where they're tested its just part of the package that they pay for when they pay for classes.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI - the standard in BJJ is 4 stripes in-between belts all the way up to black. In most schools, stripes are awarded on a more informal basis than belts, just as a reminder that the instructor has noticed you are progressing. Most schools don't have detailed requirements for stripes. It's not uncommon for a student to skip stripes (say, jump from 1 stripes to 3 stripes or from 2 stripes to the next belt). Some schools don't even use them at all. There are schools which have formal requirements (in terms of time in grade or demonstration of specific techniques), but they are in the minority.



You might be right, about 4 stripes being the number of stripes between all belts. I do know that you get 4 stripes on your white belt before you get a blue belt and I thought that maybe you had to get more stripes on higher belts but it might be 4 stripes for all the belts. When you get a stripe, at the end of class the instructor will call you over and put a stripe on your belt. I did once observe a student going ip a belt. If you're going up a belt the instructor will take off your old belt and tie the new belt around your waist so there is a bit more of a formality with that. I've never seen a student skip stripes and from what I know at least where I train you have to have a stripe for 4 months before you can get another one so I don't think there would be any stripe skipping, but I haven't been there all that long yet.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 16, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I see the reason but I just don't agree with it. If I go to a university, I don't pay extra for the "instructor's time" when it's exam time. That's just part of the tuition that I'm paying.



And some schools do include it in the tuition and not have a extra fee, that's fine.  That's how I do it, no extra fees.

But, we are different then a University.  In a University everyone writes the exam at the same time.  Term starts and ends and you write the exam and then pass or fail.  In a martial arts setting you might take the exam after 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. months depending on when you are ready.  So if you train less frequent and test less often then someone should you pay the same "built in" amount?

So for a client if you miss some classes, or otherwise fall behind and aren't ready to graduate you pay a little less.  Which might help motivate the school to make every effort to get everyone ready... or in a less then ethical school promote you anyways to get the fee.

Anyways, just to throw some background into this for anyone who cares.  Part of what lead to schools pulling things like testing fees out of tuition as a separate charge has to do with the way billing companies operate.  Generally the company would take over handling billing and all the work that goes into that for a school and charge a percentage as payment.  Kept the school from having to call you if you missed a payment, tracking down delinquent accounts, etc.

Of course having a 3rd party take a cut off everything you bring in is no fun for a business, but a testing fee is paid strait to the school, so no cut going to billing.  So the school would want to make sure monthly billing was done through a billing company as doing it in house is a huge pain, but any "extras" that are paid direct to the school don't have a cut taken off before the school even sees them.

It's less of a issue nowadays as software solutions lets schools automate EFT and credit card payments without going through a 3rd party.  As a result there seems to be a swing back towards all inclusive billing going on.


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## JR 137 (Mar 16, 2017)

The dojo I train at charges $50, give or take $5-$10 for color belt tests.  Even though there's minimum time is grade requirements, we don't typically test until much later.  The first few are every 4 months or so, then go to 6 months, then a year.  We go white-blue-yellow-green-brown, with an "advanced" rank in between them all.  My CI usually skips the advanced white belt test and goes right to blue, as there's not much material in white-advanced white.  So we have a total of 8 colored belt tests.  They're all done in-house by our CI during regular class times.

One could make the argument of it's just added fees, but we're so cheap to train at and promotions aren't very often, so it's not really a cash grab at all.  I'm pretty sure our honbu (headquarters dojo) has a fee for the certificates, and the cost of the belt itself.

Dan testing gets pretty expensive; I've heard a few hundred dollars.  Dan testing is done by my CI's teacher (our organization's founder).  It is done over 4 or 5 nights and a full day on a Sunday.  These are off-hours times.  And before calling it a cash grab, the honbu is a few doors down from the Flatiron building in Manhattan.  Rent is sky-high. And there's years between dan promotions.  My CI doesn't get any money from this, as it's paid directly to Honbu.  And I'm one of 5 regularly training colored belts, so my CI's not getting rich from testing fees.  

I factor the costs of tests and tuition into what I pay for karate.  Adding up tuition and 2-3 colored belt test fees per year, and I'm still paying less than half of what everyone else in the area is paying.  If I paid $500 for black belt tests every few years (its not $500) and my current tuition, and it's still much less than anyone else pays near me.

At the end of the day, people get too cynical about paying for things.  Forget about how much it costs, and focus on if it's worth it.  If so (and you can afford it), don't get caught up in dollar amounts.  If it's not worth it, you're probably training at the wrong place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I see the reason but I just don't agree with it. If I go to a university, I don't pay extra for the "instructor's time" when it's exam time. That's just part of the tuition that I'm paying.


That's because the instructor is paid for that during the whole year. If only some of the professors did exams, and only when each individual student was ready for them, they might have an "examination fee" showing on your tuition and fees list. You'd probably pay it up front with the rest of your fees, but it would be part of the deal. 

In fact, you do pay them for that time now, they simply build it into the overall cost of tuition, rather than as a line-item.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> No, all schools have to operate with a business mentality to stay open.  Expenses in a business are generally quite high, so money needs to come in.
> 
> What's sad is when business start using shady practices or misleading people.  These are short term thinkers though, long term business success means keeping customers happy and delivering a high quality service with good customer service.


Almost all, anyway. I do know a couple of programs that are not self-supporting. The instructors have good professions that pay their personal bills and support the school. I think it's a shame they have to do that, since they are the ones teaching.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You might be right, about 4 stripes being the number of stripes between all belts. I do know that you get 4 stripes on your white belt before you get a blue belt and I thought that maybe you had to get more stripes on higher belts but it might be 4 stripes for all the belts. When you get a stripe, at the end of class the instructor will call you over and put a stripe on your belt. I did once observe a student going ip a belt. If you're going up a belt the instructor will take off your old belt and tie the new belt around your waist so there is a bit more of a formality with that. I've never seen a student skip stripes and from what I know at least where I train you have to have a stripe for 4 months before you can get another one so I don't think there would be any stripe skipping, but I haven't been there all that long yet.


I always intended some formality in promotions, like when I was a student, but somehow I lost that for the first belt. I've gotten into the habit of sneaking their belt into a demonstration and starting a strangle with it. A sneaky, surprise promotion. I think I'll keep that for their first promotion, and let the others be formal.


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## kuniggety (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In fact, you do pay them for that time now, they simply build it into the overall cost of tuition, rather than as a line-item.



I realize this. The model just makes more sense as it's straight forward instead of nickel and diming  people at every corner.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I realize this. The model just makes more sense as it's straight forward instead of nickel and diming  people at every corner.


I prefer the straightforward per-month model, as well. It does penalize those who stay longer at a given rank (like me), but I still prefer it. I just want to pay the same every time, and keep my eyes on training. It also means I never have to delay testing because I can't afford the fee that month.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 17, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> Anyways, just to throw some background into this for anyone who cares.  Part of what lead to schools pulling things like testing fees out of tuition as a separate charge has to do with the way billing companies operate.  Generally the company would take over handling billing and all the work that goes into that for a school and charge a percentage as payment.  Kept the school from having to call you if you missed a payment, tracking down delinquent accounts, etc.
> 
> Of course having a 3rd party take a cut off everything you bring in is no fun for a business, but a testing fee is paid strait to the school, so no cut going to billing.  So the school would want to make sure monthly billing was done through a billing company as doing it in house is a huge pain, but any "extras" that are paid direct to the school don't have a cut taken off before the school even sees them.


That would make sense although at least from what I've seen, where I train promotions aren't done on a monthly basis and promotion tests aren't that expensive. Promotion tests are only held every three or four months and not every student in the school signs up and takes promotion tests when they're held. The test for yellow belt, the first belt after white, is only $5. Even the first degree black belt test is only $55 and so a school will not make that much additional income from promotion tests. Basically you're just paying for the extra time and skill that's required to run a test if you take the test. An extra $100 every three or four months will not be all that much compared to the total income the school makes.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2017)

If a promotions are based on special testing events which require extra time and work from the instructor outside of regular class time, then I have no problem with the instructor charging a reasonable fee to cover that time and work. Some schools apparently take it far beyond that level of compensation.)

Personally, I like a model where promotions are based on consistent daily performance in class over a long time. I do understand the idea of wanting to see how the student performs under extra pressure, but I also like the idea that regular class should include that sort of extra pressure on at least a semi-regular basis.

If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If a promotions are based on special testing events which require extra time and work from the instructor outside of regular class time, then I have no problem with the instructor charging a reasonable fee to cover that time and work. Some schools apparently take it far beyond that level of compensation.)
> 
> Personally, I like a model where promotions are based on consistent daily performance in class over a long time. I do understand the idea of wanting to see how the student performs under extra pressure, but I also like the idea that regular class should include that sort of extra pressure on at least a semi-regular basis.
> 
> If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.


I agree with your thoughts on how promotions should work. I still use tests, for a few reasons. Firstly, I want to make sure they actually remember the curriculum to that point (this is important in a style that uses a continuous curriculum, like NGA). Next, it gives me a chance to look for systemic problems that might not show up from one class to the next - are they making the same improper weight shift in several places? It also allows me to dig into things we don't cover often, but which I need to make sure they know and can do before they progress. These are bits we touch on, and which I expect them to incorporate by a certain point, but which might not be called upon for a few weeks, so I test them. As they move up, another component is added to testing: I remove lower ranks from the "attackers", so they can respond more fully.

As I type all of that, I realize that (except for some additional knowledge testing for black belt and instructors) what I'm actually doing is taking a few minutes during a class to make sure I've seen everything I need to see. I tell them it's a test so it adds a little stress to it, but that's a minor point. I could just walk up and ask them to show me whatever techniques I haven't seen from them lately and would get the same basic results. The test just makes it systematic.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 17, 2017)

In IRT there are no testing fee's ever.  You advance in rank based on your skill set and that is it!


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## TSDTexan (Mar 18, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> FYI - the standard in BJJ is 4 stripes in-between belts all the way up to black. In most schools, stripes are awarded on a more informal basis than belts, just as a reminder that the instructor has noticed you are progressing. Most schools don't have detailed requirements for stripes. It's not uncommon for a student to skip stripes (say, jump from 1 stripes to 3 stripes or from 2 stripes to the next belt). Some schools don't even use them at all. There are schools which have formal requirements (in terms of time in grade or demonstration of specific techniques), but they are in the minority.



Yes, that's the public view... but the elite bjj players know the real belt ranking...


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the belt fees are intended as just part of the regular revenue stream for the school, then I'd prefer to have them included in the regular tuition. Otherwise I think you end up with unfortunate incentives. School owners are incentivized to promote students because they need money rather than just wanting to accurately indicate the students progress. On the other hand, students on a budget may be incentivized to skip gradings to save money. Either way, the rank system becomes less indicative of anything meaningful.



At my Karate school the fees for promotion tests aren't that much but whether or not you pass you don't get the money back. Even a student on a budget could probably squeeze out some extra dollars every three or four months although it does become more expensive when you test for higher ranks. I've seen some schools where the testing fees are ridiculous, for instance $500 to test for a black belt which if you fail you get it back. Consequently some of the instructors in such schools might pass students even when they perform terribly on the test just so they can keep the money.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?
> 
> And how many ranks in your school/system?



I cannot speak to every school within the IKSDA, but the senior most schools have never charged for either belt or exam fees.  We don't believe in charging for either.  

Currently, within the IKSDA, we go up to 9th Dan.  There is only one 9th Dan so the highest a member could likely achieve is 8th Dan.  Currently their is discussion on promoting me to 10th which would open up the 9th Dan level for one or more of the senior members when it is time.


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## JR 137 (Mar 18, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> At my Karate school the fees for promotion tests aren't that much but whether or not you pass you don't get the money back. Even a student on a budget could probably squeeze out some extra dollars every three or four months although it does become more expensive when you test for higher ranks. I've seen some schools where the testing fees are ridiculous, for instance $500 to test for a black belt which if you fail you get it back. Consequently some of the instructors in such schools might pass students even when they perform terribly on the test just so they can keep the money.



Different schools have different protocol when a student fails.  I haven't heard of the money being returned; the only thing I've heard is the student retests for free.

Edit: I just remembered a conversation with my former sensei.  In the first organization he studied in, everyone failed their 1st dan test the first time they took it.  It didn't matter how good the student did.  It was never told to the students testing until they were around 3rd dan or so.  The head of the organization said it was part of the test - to see how well they handled failing a huge test for them.  They'd re-test 6-12 months later.  Testing fees weren't returned and they'd have to pay again to re-test.  And it was $200 back in the late 70s-early 80s.  The head of the organization did all dan testing himself and kept all the money, yet he required all 2nd dans and up to assist.  

For various reasons, he left that organization.  The final straw was when he realized what was going on; it was his first batch of black belt students testing.  In his words "it was all greed, and nothing more."


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## Buka (Mar 18, 2017)

I used to charge them the cost of the belt (five bucks) but didn't charge anything to higher ranks.

But I've matured. From now on, Black Belt is fifty thousand dollars, cash. No exceptions.

(but I'll cut forum members a deal, thirty percent off)


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Different schools have different protocol when a student fails.  I haven't heard of the money being returned; the only thing I've heard is the student retests for free.
> 
> Edit: I just remembered a conversation with my former sensei.  In the first organization he studied in, everyone failed their 1st dan test the first time they took it.  It didn't matter how good the student did.  It was never told to the students testing until they were around 3rd dan or so.  The head of the organization said it was part of the test - to see how well they handled failing a huge test for them.  They'd re-test 6-12 months later.  Testing fees weren't returned and they'd have to pay again to re-test.  And it was $200 back in the late 70s-early 80s.  The head of the organization did all dan testing himself and kept all the money, yet he required all 2nd dans and up to assist.
> 
> For various reasons, he left that organization.  The final straw was when he realized what was going on; it was his first batch of black belt students testing.  In his words "it was all greed, and nothing more."



I would think students would notice a pattern after awhile. They would notice that everybody who tests for first dan fails their first time and so they would realize that something must be up, or that one of the requirements for passing is to fail the first time.


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## JR 137 (Mar 18, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would think students would notice a pattern after awhile. They would notice that everybody who tests for first dan fails their first time and so they would realize that something must be up, or that one of the requirements for passing is to fail the first time.



I agree.  However, there's always a reason to fail someone.  Especially when it comes to brown belts sparring with higher ranking black belts, and even more so when they're going 20 rounds with a fresh black belt every round, bare knuckle.  Add to that that back then, you didn't ask questions; the head of the organization said and did what he did, and that was that.  Questioning him was not tolerated. 

That organization went from almost 2,000 students in about 20 independently owned dojos to about 30 students in one dojo.  And he doesn't have the fail all first timers policy any more.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 18, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I agree.  However, there's always a reason to fail someone.  Especially when it comes to brown belts sparring with higher ranking black belts, and even more so when they're going 20 rounds with a fresh black belt every round, bare knuckle.  Add to that that back then, you didn't ask questions; the head of the organization said and did what he did, and that was that.  Questioning him was not tolerated.
> 
> That organization went from almost 2,000 students in about 20 independently owned dojos to about 30 students in one dojo.  And he doesn't have the fail all first timers policy any more.



Considering how he ran it, Im not surprised it didn't last. Im not surprised its now just one dojo with 30 students.


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## Balrog (Mar 19, 2017)

We charge $65 for a colored belt testing.  Black Belt testings are more expensive, but they are much further apart and the students "pre-pay" them with midterm testing fees.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I can understand why you'd see it that way. I think some instructors see it as just a different way of billing. If I charge you $70/month and $60 once a year for a promotion, that's the same as charging you $75/month, assuming you average a promotion once a year. And since some tests require a lot of work by the instructor (time away from teaching, etc.), I can see a valid reason for those to cost a bit more. If I had to do testing outside regular class times (which I'd have to do for brown and black right now, because I have nobody else to teach classes), I'd charge something to cover that extra time. If I could do it all within normal classes, I'd be disinclined to charge extra for it.


@Mark Lynn - which part of this post did you disagree with?


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## shihansmurf (Mar 23, 2017)

I charge $20 for belt testing . The fee covers the belt, the cert, and room rent for the test(the facility that I teach out of classes are paid for on a punch card system so there is a fee per class).  I use six color ranks. 

Mark


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## TSDTexan (Mar 25, 2017)

So... is this a bit much?
It's older, but it is what is posted.

My promote to 9 kyu was 18 Dollars.
They didn't charge a promotion fee to start at 10 kyu. But it's being folded into the 9 kyu test.

I really hope it is not cumulative like that from now on.

I like the depth of knowledge of the Shihan.
I love this dojo.

But if 8 kyu is 7 + 11 + 15 = 33.00
And 7 kyu is 7 + 11 + 15 + 18 = 54.00

Then just testing for Shodan will cost 440.00
 And Nidan will cost 640.00
Sandan will cost 940.00
Shi/Yon Dan is 1340.00
Renshi 1890.00
Godan would be 2390.00


I find it hard to believe that this is the case.

If it is, (in fact) the case, will I refuse to test out after a certain grade?

This is the reason I started my OP.

I love okinawan karate.
But if this is the case, I may stay in class until Godan.

Or change over to the TKD/BJJ school, for bjj classes and forget about karate in this town.

Oh, and the local dojo doesn't keep the fees. It goes up to the organization honbu to Hanshi Nobuo Ichikawa


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> So... is this a bit much?
> It's older, but it is what is posted.
> 
> My promote to 9 kyu was 18 Dollars.
> ...


A couple of thoughts.

First, since they didn't collect the 10th kyu fee separately, it doesn't sound like they are cumulative.

Second, don't worry about what happens at godan. Most of us won't ever have to worry about ranks that advanced, and the policy could be something entirely different 30 or 40 years from now.


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## JR 137 (Mar 26, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> So... is this a bit much?
> It's older, but it is what is posted.
> 
> My promote to 9 kyu was 18 Dollars.
> ...



Looking at that sheet tells me what you see is what you pay, not cumulative.  If they say they're going to roll the 10th kyu price into the 9th kyu price, I'd take that as just pay the first two prices when you test for 9th kyu rather than pay for each test.


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## wingerjim (Mar 27, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?
> 
> And how many ranks in your school/system?


We charge nothing because we have no belts as we are a Traditional Kung Fu school. Sorry this does not help but I actually like this system. The people at our school have no problem identifying who is who as it relates to the teacher, sr students, and jr students.


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## Mark Lynn (Mar 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @Mark Lynn - which part of this post did you disagree with?



Gerry, my bad sorry I didn't mean to disagree with your post.   I was sitting in a Whataburger reading MT while awaiting my dinner, before heading off to teach my evening classes.   I remember pressing something by accident as I was scrolling down the page.  I guess it was the disagree button, I thought I undid whatever I did and forgot about it.  Saw your post asking why I disagreed the other day and tried to answer on my phone and it was to much of a pain.   So I waited until I got out the trusty laptop computer to write back.


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## Mark Lynn (Mar 29, 2017)

In regards to my school, it is a flat fee of $20.00 per belt test up to black. At black belt the American Karate/TKD test was $30.00 and the Modern Arnis Lakan test will probably be $100 or so.   Why the rate hike for the Modern Arnis test, you ask?

Well the belts for the lakan/black belts are what drives the price up.   Century's just came out with a belt (black with red trim) and it is $75 (aprox) wholesale.   When I promoted my first two black belts in Modern Arnis I purchased the belts, I think I paid $40-50 ea. at the area martial arts supply store.  Not sure what they cost now.   My Modern Arnis black belt was a regular black belt and I paid someone to put the red trim on it, What a hassle and my students have better quality belts than me.

The progression for the American Karate/TKD is; White, Yellow, Gold, Orange, Green, Blue, Purple, Brown (3rd), Brown with a solid black stripe (2nd), Red (1st) and then Black (1st dan).

In our Modern Arnis curriculum it is; White, White belt with solid yellow stripe, Yellow, Yellow belt with solid green stripe, Green, Green with solid blue stripe, Blue, Blue with Brown stripe, Solid brown, Brown with solid black stripe, Black belt with red trim (Lakan Isa).  I'm not having a probationary black rank in my Modern Arnis ranking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> Gerry, my bad sorry I didn't mean to disagree with your post.   I was sitting in a Whataburger reading MT while awaiting my dinner, before heading off to teach my evening classes.   I remember pressing something by accident as I was scrolling down the page.  I guess it was the disagree button, I thought I undid whatever I did and forgot about it.  Saw your post asking why I disagreed the other day and tried to answer on my phone and it was to much of a pain.   So I waited until I got out the trusty laptop computer to write back.


No worries, Mark. I thought I'd missed something somewhere, and we'd have something to talk about. So, how was the burger?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> In regards to my school, it is a flat fee of $20.00 per belt test up to black. At black belt the American Karate/TKD test was $30.00 and the Modern Arnis Lakan test will probably be $100 or so.   Why the rate hike for the Modern Arnis test, you ask?
> 
> Well the belts for the lakan/black belts are what drives the price up.   Century's just came out with a belt (black with red trim) and it is $75 (aprox) wholesale.   When I promoted my first two black belts in Modern Arnis I purchased the belts, I think I paid $40-50 ea. at the area martial arts supply store.  Not sure what they cost now.   My Modern Arnis black belt was a regular black belt and I paid someone to put the red trim on it, What a hassle and my students have better quality belts than me.
> 
> ...


My instructor solved the issue of black belt being more expensive by letting us get our own. We would buy them from wherever we wanted (some went cheap, some spent $100), added the single stripe to it, then handed it to him for him to present when our certificates came in. I prefer the idea of the instructor buying it and presenting it, but not for any practical reason.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 30, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> In regards to my school, it is a flat fee of $20.00 per belt test up to black. At black belt the American Karate/TKD test was $30.00 and the Modern Arnis Lakan test will probably be $100 or so.   Why the rate hike for the Modern Arnis test, you ask?
> 
> Well the belts for the lakan/black belts are what drives the price up.   Century's just came out with a belt (black with red trim) and it is $75 (aprox) wholesale.   When I promoted my first two black belts in Modern Arnis I purchased the belts, I think I paid $40-50 ea. at the area martial arts supply store.  Not sure what they cost now.   My Modern Arnis black belt was a regular black belt and I paid someone to put the red trim on it, What a hassle and my students have better quality belts than me.
> 
> ...



Interesting, in regards to the cost of your belts. At my Karate dojo whenever you went up a belt you would then buy your new belt for $5. The cost was $5 regardless of the color with the exception of the black belt in which case they would give it to you. When you pass the black belt test they give you the belt and you don't pay anything for it. You do have the option of buying a fancier black belt with your name on it in addition to the black belt they give you which I believe costs around $30 but aside from that, all of the belts including the black belt that they give you if and when you pass the test, they are just plain belts, no stripes or trims or decorations.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> My instructor solved the issue of black belt being more expensive by letting us get our own. We would buy them from wherever we wanted (some went cheap, some spent $100), added the single stripe to it, then handed it to him for him to present when our certificates came in. I prefer the idea of the instructor buying it and presenting it, but not for any practical reason.



Why not just sell the belts right at the school? It doesn't have to be a fancy belt. They could sell plain black belts for around $5 along with all the other colors. That way students would have the option of buying their belts right there at the school unless they wanted to break the bank as you mentioned some of the students did.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why not just sell the belts right at the school? It doesn't have to be a fancy belt. They could sell plain black belts for around $5 along with all the other colors. That way students would have the option of buying their belts right there at the school unless they wanted to break the bank as you mentioned some of the students did.


The $5 belts aren't as durable. There are reasonable options that are pretty durable. Mine (from Bujin Design, still $39 today) is somewhat faded, but unfrayed after 15+ years. Some of that may be due to the fact that I wear hakama about half the time, which covers the belt.

No sense stocking them (to sell at the school) - there simply weren't enough BB promotions for that. At most, maybe once a year, and not always the same size, of course.


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## DanT (Mar 30, 2017)

50 for red
100 for green
200 for blue
400 for black
500 for gold

My Sifu teaches full time 6 days a week, this is his job and I understand that, thus I have no problem paying. Then again over his 50 years of teaching only 6 people have reached black or higher, because the standard is so high.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The $5 belts aren't as durable. There are reasonable options that are pretty durable. Mine (from Bujin Design, still $39 today) is somewhat faded, but unfrayed after 15+ years. Some of that may be due to the fact that I wear hakama about half the time, which covers the belt.
> 
> No sense stocking them (to sell at the school) - there simply weren't enough BB promotions for that. At most, maybe once a year, and not always the same size, of course.



My belt has withstood over 12 years of heavy use and its still in good shape although it has faded a bit here and there. But that just reflects my progress.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

DanT said:


> 50 for red
> 100 for green
> 200 for blue
> 400 for black
> ...



So with your system gold is the highest belt color.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> My belt has withstood over 12 years of heavy use and its still in good shape although it has faded a bit here and there. But that just reflects my progress.


If it's a $5 belt, it's a better $5 belt than I've seen. In any case, the larger issue for stocking them in the school is that it's a waste of space. Given the range of sizes likely to be promoted, an instructor would probably need a 4, 5, and 6 on hand. At best, most years, one of those would be used. It's easier to just order as they are needed. Students can always opt for an inexpensive belt from AWMA or whatever - it's their choice. Since most will never progress beyond shodan, that one belt is probably the last most will ever need, and spending a bit more on it is inconsequential.


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## DanT (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So with your system gold is the highest belt color.


Yes in my lineage Gold Sash means full instructor (Sifu). I think this is common in Wing Chun lineages that use sashes.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2017)

We do "test" for 10th geup, but there is no fee. After passing the test for 10th geup, students are allowed to buy and wear a dobak and white belt.
Our testing fees start at $42 for 9th geup and go up to $62 for 1st. 
The cost of new belts, rank certificates, and breaking materials comes out of these fees.
Chodanbo is $75.
1st Dan is $300 for Moo Duk Kwan and $400 for Kukkiwon.
The fees cover the embroidered belt (and no, they're not $5), rank certificate, framing of the certificate, breaking materials, and bringing Masters in to serve as simsakwan.
The extra $100 for the KKW covers the KKW registration fee.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If it's a $5 belt, it's a better $5 belt than I've seen. In any case, the larger issue for stocking them in the school is that it's a waste of space. Given the range of sizes likely to be promoted, an instructor would probably need a 4, 5, and 6 on hand. At best, most years, one of those would be used. It's easier to just order as they are needed. Students can always opt for an inexpensive belt from AWMA or whatever - it's their choice. Since most will never progress beyond shodan, that one belt is probably the last most will ever need, and spending a bit more on it is inconsequential.



The $5 belts that I see are usually made out of cotton. As a matter of fact they might be more than $5 by now, its been awhile since I've bought a standard belt without a uniform so the price might've gone up by then. But from what I know cotton is a good material and my belt has outlasted four or five uniforms including a really good, really expensive Tokaido uniform which Im about to dispose of. But from what I know cotton is quite a durable material for martial arts belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The $5 belts that I see are usually made out of cotton. As a matter of fact they might be more than $5 by now, its been awhile since I've bought a standard belt without a uniform so the price might've gone up by then. But from what I know cotton is a good material and my belt has outlasted four or five uniforms including a really good, really expensive Tokaido uniform which Im about to dispose of. But from what I know cotton is quite a durable material for martial arts belts.


Most of the belts I've used were cotton (maybe all of them), certainly my BB is. I prefer them, too. I prefer the beefy feel of the one I have over some of the less expensive ones, but that's a personal preference.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Most of the belts I've used were cotton (maybe all of them), certainly my BB is. I prefer them, too. I prefer the beefy feel of the one I have over some of the less expensive ones, but that's a personal preference.



All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.


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## JR 137 (Apr 1, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> The $5 belts that I see are usually made out of cotton. As a matter of fact they might be more than $5 by now, its been awhile since I've bought a standard belt without a uniform so the price might've gone up by then. But from what I know cotton is a good material and my belt has outlasted four or five uniforms including a really good, really expensive Tokaido uniform which Im about to dispose of. But from what I know cotton is quite a durable material for martial arts belts.



There are different grades of cotton and cotton black belts.  Some are standard like colored belts, others are much heavier.  Some have far more cotton inspire the belt (belt core?) than others.

I've been wearing my standard green belt for almost a year now.  It's 100% cotton.  It's fine except where I tie it.  The core has broken down and it's hard to keep a solid knot.  There is a black version of the same belt.

There's a classmate who earned her shodan about a month after I earned my green belt.  Her's is 100% cotton too.  Due to the thickness/firmness of the core of it, she's just now (about a month or so) able to keep it tied for an entire class.

All cotton doesn't mean it's the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.


If it were only being worn that long, I'd prefer not to spend it, though they are nice belts. We don't (usually) do any embroidery. Some of us have embroidered stripes, but most just have sewn-on fabric stripes. And the shodan in the NGAA is the last rank most folks get to. It takes a minimum of 3 years of active teaching (with your own students, so having classes you run not under immediate supervision) to qualify to test for nidan. So, even those who move up will have their shodan for usually 4 or 5 years, minimum.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> There are different grades of cotton and cotton black belts.  Some are standard like colored belts, others are much heavier.  Some have far more cotton inspire the belt (belt core?) than others.
> 
> I've been wearing my standard green belt for almost a year now.  It's 100% cotton.  It's fine except where I tie it.  The core has broken down and it's hard to keep a solid knot.  There is a black version of the same belt.
> 
> ...


I still can't get my BB to stay tied for an entire class. I think Bujin doesn't put a separate core inside it, it's just multiple folds of the same material, so black all the way. I like the feel, but it may be just a bit too durable. Mind you, they market it as an Aikido belt, so there's probably an expectation it's being worn under hakama, and that binds the knot nicely. Without the hakama, I have to retie at least once every class. With hakama, no issues.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If it were only being worn that long, I'd prefer not to spend it, though they are nice belts. We don't (usually) do any embroidery. Some of us have embroidered stripes, but most just have sewn-on fabric stripes. And the shodan in the NGAA is the last rank most folks get to. It takes a minimum of 3 years of active teaching (with your own students, so having classes you run not under immediate supervision) to qualify to test for nidan. So, even those who move up will have their shodan for usually 4 or 5 years, minimum.


@Mark Lynn, was this another mis-click, or was there something you actually didn't like in this one?


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel. 

As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel.
> 
> As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).


Belts can be had wholesale for about $2, so they are often just considered as part of the overhead expense.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 2, 2017)

I've seen the low grade cotton belts, very light and flimsy and they usually come with a lightweight uniform. From my experience, the kind of belt you would get with a uniform designed for a grappling art such as Judo or Jiu Jitsu is a very heavy and durable belt since the uniform designed for such arts will be heavy and durable as it has to withstand all the gripping and pulling that are done in such arts. The belt itself will also be subject to some gripping and pulling so it too will have to be strong. At my Karate school they also teach Judo and although they sell different uniforms for each art the belts are the same. When you get promoted you buy your new belt, so lets say you just got promoted to orange belt, you buy your orange belt and its the same kind of belt whether its going to be used for Judo or Karate. Since the belt might be used for Judo it had to be strong. The last time I bought a belt from them they were $5 with the exception of the black belt which they just give to you once you earn it. That was many years ago so the price might've gone up but back then you could buy a good belt for only $5. From what I know standard martial arts belts are made out of cotton and most of the belts used in the martial arts are cotton although the quality and durability of all cotton belts varies. I have seen belts made out of silk or satin but with a canvas core.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @Mark Lynn, was this another mis-click, or was there something you actually didn't like in this one?



I was wondering that too.
And to which part did he dislike?


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> On the topic of belt/promotion fees, color belt fees are minimal ($25-$30) and mostly cover the price of the belt and the instructor's time. These are held at the local school. The belts are white, orange (1 stripe), green (2 stripes), red (2 stripes), midnight blue (black, 2 or 3 stripes), master/kodanja (midnight blue with red stripe). The other requirement is to be up to date on your national membership fees ($80/yr). Black belt tests are significantly more expensive, starting at $450. This is mostly because we test by region, our region is the rocky mountain states from Canada to Mexico. It lasts a weekend and it requires us to bring instructors from other regions to hold seminars and be on the test panel. We try to at least pay for their hotel and help with airfare etc plus we need to pay for the hotel conference space, etc... We hold these tests every six months. We encourage all Dan ranks, whether testing or not, to attend the event and seminars (about $100 if signed up for seminars). It's a good fellowship/networking/training experience. The kodanja test is yearly and at a national (or international if you choose) level. I don't know the cost of this but it's probably comparable in terms of fees. This test is eight days long and "visitors" are also welcome to train along with the candidates and assembled panel.
> 
> As an aside, if I ever started my own school I would charge more for color belt testing ($25+ as suggested donation) and either pool it to pay the fees for my students testing for Dan ranks or use it as a scholarship fund for yearly national organization fees. Or some combination of this. I don't own a studio so I don't know but I suspect that cost of belts in bulk isn't too much and can probably be rolled into operation costs without too much effect on the bottom line (again, I'm not an owner so I don't know).



Which tang soo do organization is your school under? There are quite a few these days.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Which tang soo do organization is your school under? There are quite a few these days.


US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


I suspected as much from the color belt progression.

I am not not a fan of time in rank requirements, if they are adopted late in an organization's history. 

It creates an unfair inequality between earlier students and current students.

While it is claimed that it helps eliminate McDoJang diploma mills that give a guaranteed BB in X months for only 2000.00.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really guarantee real world self defense ability or accurate/complete transmission of an art.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

So I didn't really opine on whether fees were good or bad or about them in general. I think I wound my way there in my reply though. I tend to think that it's not a bad thing to pay someone for their labor/expertise. After all, we pay our instructor for weekly lessons, right? If it's more time/work from them to hold a testing session then, by all means, they should be encouraged to charge for it. In the case of the black belt testing in my organization, we put a lot of emphasis on consistency of grading regionally, nationally, and internationally so it potentially requires instructors and candidates to travel long distances to take part. The more you progress and mature, the more this is expected of you, cost understandably goes up. On the other side, guest instructors are usually compensated and tests become increasingly far apart while fees level out, after all, you're paying for the event and the instructors not lining the orgs pockets. I think my organization has an opportunity to make these things more accessible for people, hence the idea of a scholarship fund or a policy of paying for a Dan test. I'm sure there are better ideas as well.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

Not sure I understand the unfair inequality statement? I know that students coming from other styles will progress faster through the color belts or may be evaluated at an equivalent Dan rank if coming from another TSD org. The minimum times are generally what is needed to pick up the curriculum. As with any grading you must seek instructor permission and can/will fail tests (retest generally cover the failed portion and don't require an additional fee). In addition, because all Dan tests are regionally administered an instructor will not recommend you until they are sure you are able to pass when being evaluated by their peers and superiors. Most students will take extra time to prepare, for example wait 2.5 to 3 years between first and second Dan before attempting. There is also a requirement to be evaluated by the regional test board at the shim sa before the one you intend to grade at (six months before your test). There are a lot of checks and eyes on you every step of the way so I'm fairly confident that we, for the most part, do a fair job of evaluating students every step of the way. 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> Not sure I understand the unfair inequality statement? I know that students coming from other styles will progress faster through the color belts or may be evaluated at an equivalent Dan rank if coming from another TSD org. The minimum times are generally what is needed to pick up the curriculum. As with any grading you must seek instructor permission and can/will fail tests (retest generally cover the failed portion and don't require an additional fee). In addition, because all Dan tests are regionally administered an instructor will not recommend you until they are sure you are able to pass when being evaluated by their peers and superiors. Most students will take extra time to prepare, for example wait 2.5 to 3 years between first and second Dan before attempting. There is also a requirement to be evaluated by the regional test board at the shim sa before the one you intend to grade at (six months before your test). There are a lot of checks and eyes on you every step of the way so I'm fairly confident that we, for the most part, do a fair job of evaluating students every step of the way.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk



The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.

Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.

It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> All our belts are cotton. Personally, I like the Eosin Panther belts with two sided embroidery (I have English on one side an Hangeul on the other), but they're kind of pricey. It's debatable if they're worth it for a belt that'll only be worn a year or so.




While the Panther is a better belt, I like the feel and fit of a Kataaro belt a bit better. At least the are both made in America by companies with high quality control standards.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.
> 
> Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.
> 
> It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to


It depends on how you look at it. As organizations mature and grow standardization becomes necessary to ensure consistency. They aren't doing every test in S Korea in front of GM Hwang Kee anymore, this organization is worldwide and requires global coordination. So no, it's not a guarantee but it's a judgement a group of people made to, hopefully, build a stronger, more consistent organization. As far as I know regional examiners, the KJN, and the technical committee have the ability to use discretion when recommending someone for promotion. So, I don't think it's perfect but I like the benefits of a large worldwide organization and I understand it's purpose and believe through experience that the process works "well enough" even if some people fall through the cracks but in the end rank and seniority stop mattering at a point and what matters is how hard you train and how open you are to learning. That's why I love the idea of regional events every six months. I will gladly spend money and travel a thousand miles to join up with people who have the same martial arts values as me and want to train just as hard as me and spend time teaching and learning from eachother.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> While the Panther is a better belt, I like the feel and fit of a Kataaro belt a bit better. At least the are both made in America by companies with high quality control standards.


My only complaint about the Kataaro belt was that they didn't have a midnight blue in 100% cotton and so the feel and color were way off from what I would have liked them to be (clearly personal preference).

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> My only complaint about the Kataaro belt was that they didn't have a midnight blue in 100% cotton and so the feel and color were way off from what I would have liked them to be (clearly personal preference).
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk



Back when my master's master was starting the MDK, the midnight blue belt didn't exist.

And back then it wasn't uncommon for a soldier/airman/marine to rotate out at 18 months with a shodan rank.

When "Chuck" Norris failed his first shodan test in front of HWANG Kee, and JC Shin and others on the exam board in Seoul, he had about a month to correct what failed him and retested and passed before rotation back to the US.

Less than 18 months to shodan test back then...

Today the MDK requires 33 months or 2.75 years in gup rank before testing for Shodan.
And 32 months as a Federation member.


The training methods used in Korea, didn't work out in the US. Ask Robert Cheezicwhat happened in his first couple schools...

100 dropout rate. The common complain was the training was too hard.

He like many others had to dial it back.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Back when my master's master was starting the MDK, the midnight blue belt didn't exist.
> 
> And back then it wasn't uncommon for a soldier/airman/marine to rotate out at 18 months with a shodan rank.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's not trained airmen or post war occupation villagers anymore, it's suburban kids. Not surprising it takes longer to pick up the curriculum. 

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> Yeah, it's not trained airmen or post war occupation villagers anymore, it's suburban kids. Not surprising it takes longer to pick up the curriculum.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk



The problem is, that for those who are able and dedicated enough to train like the old guys at the tempo and intensity they did... the MDK won't even give them the opportunity to test.


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

Sure, we probably lose out on some people because of this but I'm not losing any sleep over it. It doesn't mean we don't have anyone who isn't this dedicated either. We're setting up a new studio, every Dan has a key and we train at least five days a week, not one person is concerned about not being able to test sooner. We train together, learn from eachother and rank is just a thing we do because it's there.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk


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## TSDTexan (Apr 2, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> Sure, we probably lose out on some people because of this but I'm not losing any sleep over it. It doesn't mean we don't have anyone who isn't this dedicated either. We're setting up a new studio, every Dan has a key and we train at least five days a week, not one person is concerned about not being able to test sooner. We train together, learn from eachother and rank is just a thing we do because it's there.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk




That's great.

But you do see my point about changing rules creating an inequality?


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## mgotangsoodo (Apr 2, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> That's great.
> 
> But you do see my point about changing rules creating an inequality?


I mean, I understand the point you're making but I'm not bothered by it. It also happened 40 years ago. Standardization and consistency seem like reasonable goals and minimum times seem like reasonable steps to achieve this. The tradeoff is that some really dedicated people have to wait longer or ship off to somewhere else.

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## Buka (Apr 3, 2017)

I wear a Kataaro belt these last few years. (last belt fell apart)  I like it, it's an okay belt.

Teach a few times a month in a Tang-Soo-Do school now. (Just self defense) The guy that runs it is a friend, his teacher used to be a student of mine. His school belongs to some Tang-Soo-Do association, I forget which one.

My friend, Richard Byrne, was a Tang-Soo guy on the East coast for a long time. (passed away) He had a lot of schools. I trained in them from time to time, fought in a few of their competitions, too. (only non Tang-Soo guy to do so) I don't know what organization he belonged to)

It's all good stuff, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I suspected as much from the color belt progression.
> 
> I am not not a fan of time in rank requirements, if they are adopted late in an organization's history.
> 
> ...


I think they often show up later in an organization's development, because the folks who started it trusted themselves and the standards of those they taught. The more generations away you get, the more they wonder if people are having to work hard enough for rank. So, they turn what was probably their informal guideline for themselves into a formal requirement. I don't have a problem with it (the NGAA has them), but I agree that it doesn't necessarily accomplish the goal of improving output.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.
> 
> Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.
> 
> It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to


Ah, I see the point, and it's a good one. IMO, time-in-grade requirements should be guidelines. In exceptional cases, they can be waived (unless they are the main requirement, as with the NGAA's requirements to nidan, in my view). I never needed to - never had anyone who could progress much faster than the requirements.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Ah, I see the point, and it's a good one. IMO, time-in-grade requirements should be guidelines. In exceptional cases, they can be waived (unless they are the main requirement, as with the NGAA's requirements to nidan, in my view). I never needed to - never had anyone who could progress much faster than the requirements.


 
It's one of the reasons a few broke with the MDK, to form other TSD orgs/associationso.

It should be a guideline not a law.


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Unfortunately, it doesn't really guarantee real world self defense ability



I don't think anything can really do this, except for when it actually happens. The time requirements I can see as being "clumsy" and in need of some polishing, but I believe it can have used in helping ensuring concept development. Now, I am not saying it is a garment, because every school, style, and person is difference, but it is a little tool to help with that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 3, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I don't think anything can really do this, except for when it actually happens. The time requirements I can see as being "clumsy" and in need of some polishing, but I believe it can have used in helping ensuring concept development. Now, I am not saying it is a garment, because every school, style, and person is difference, but it is a little tool to help with that.


I agree that as a guideline it can be helpful. I have seen it work backwards, though, with instructors thinking that students SHOULD be ready after the given number of hours/weeks. They end up pushing people forward who haven't gotten the concepts yet.

For the most part, they should end up being irrelevant. A reasonably good instructor will know when people are ready, and that will rarely be any faster than the guidelines. New instructors can use them to see if they are pushing too fast, or perhaps moving too slowly (not even finishing the requisite curriculum within the guideline). And any instructor who routinely promotes faster than the guidelines needs some follow-up. They either have a different view of the progression (and probably don't really belong in the organization), or they have found a method for speeding up the process (and they need to share it), or they are just bad at what they do.


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 3, 2017)

My Tang Soo Do school has two test to get a Cho Dan. The first one is six hours and is just to check curriculum, spirit, and overall readiness. The second test is the real deal. Both require an invitation (wich usually requires a recommendation) from an instructor. I have seen people make it to the 6 hours, and then get put on "probation" where they have to show improvement in a certain amount of time in order to qualify for the test. It really is stressful, but it makes people who do pass both of these tests believe that they have earned it, while actually putting out well trained Cho days.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I agree that as a guideline it can be helpful. I have seen it work backwards, though, with instructors thinking that students SHOULD be ready after the given number of hours/weeks. They end up pushing people forward who haven't gotten the concepts yet.
> 
> For the most part, they should end up being irrelevant. A reasonably good instructor will know when people are ready, and that will rarely be any faster than the guidelines. New instructors can use them to see if they are pushing too fast, or perhaps moving too slowly (not even finishing the requisite curriculum within the guideline). And any instructor who routinely promotes faster than the guidelines needs some follow-up. They either have a different view of the progression (and probably don't really belong in the organization), or they have found a method for speeding up the process (and they need to share it), or they are just bad at what they do.



It also has to do with hours trained
Twice or three times a week for an hour and a half (suburban mall dojo) vs 3 hour classes 6 nights a week ( Osan Air Base )


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## JR 137 (Apr 3, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> It also has to do with hours trained
> Twice or three times a week for an hour and a half (suburban mall dojo) vs 3 hour classes 6 nights a week ( Osan Air Base )



There's so many time in grade posts, I didn't know which one to quote...

I think some people focus too much on the time in grade rule that they forget the intent of it.

I think the intent is for the MAist to have sufficient experience, and not solely on whether he/she can perform the syllabus sufficiently.

There's no substitute for experience.  But there are people who may have previous experience, and there are also people who attend class far more than average.

The organization I'm in does minimum classes attended rather than calendar time in grade for kyu ranks.  Dan promotions are different.  There are guidelines for minimum time in grade, but the main criteria is if the CI recommends the student for promotion.  Then the student is tested by our founder rather than by the CI.  If the student isn't up to standards, it's a reflection of the CI.  Most CIs have had students fail dan tests.  It happens, but if it repeatedly happens it's another story.  

Time in grade should be a strict-ish guideline, not an unchangable rule.  If a CI feels the student is ready earlier and is willing to put his/her reputation on the line in front of his/her teacher, have at it.

All IMO.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 4, 2017)

mgotangsoodo said:


> I mean, I understand the point you're making but I'm not bothered by it. It also happened 40 years ago. Standardization and consistency seem like reasonable goals and minimum times seem like reasonable steps to achieve this. The tradeoff is that some really dedicated people have to wait longer or ship off to somewhere else.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk




I wouldn't go so far as to say that I am bothered by it. But as I said: I am no fan of changing regs wrt time in rank.

You said:
Standardization and consistency seem like reasonable goals and minimum times seem like reasonable steps to achieve this.

My response:
Standardization is good.
Consistency is good.

Being inconsistent about what standards and organization employs isn't good.

Having a rank progression track for slow learners in addition to a fast learner track is ideal.

There are things like private lessons that accelerate one student ahead of his peers.

Then, you have schools that have retreats/monastic locations that class time is a 14 to 18 hour day for many months in duration.

If a student attends such a place he is going to advance far beyond a normal slow learners track.

The problem of a one size fits all students, is that gifted and talented individuals who truely learn the curriculum faster suffer emotionally and can walk away because of a ranking system that doesn't flex.

Now a really good CI will teach him beyond his rank, if the student has really demonstrated competence in the material. 

But then you run into classmate disharmony as other equal ranked students see a fellow Beltrank, working on advanced material that they are not being given access too.

Keeping the gifted challenged is an instructor's silent nightmare.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @Mark Lynn, was this another mis-click, or was there something you actually didn't like in this one?





TSDTexan said:


> I was wondering that too.
> And to which part did he dislike?



Again I apologize, as I was reading a few minutes ago on my phone, I noticed your messages, after I was done eating I came to the library to do some work BUT I thought I had better answer you all first after I booted up the lap top.

This particular quote I believed that I had removed the disagree or whatever negative symbol I accidentally posted on it right after I clicked on it.   I clicked remove as I recall.

Anyway a few minutes ago while scrolling through the thread and eating my phone screen goes dark and I tap the screen to brighten it and once again on this thread another icon pops up like I was agreeing, liking, reporting, disagreeing, or something with a post.   The post was fine, it was a mistake.  I once again clicked remove.   I didn't care what it was, I didn't want to click on those icons at the bottom of the post.   SO I apologize to you two and to the person who's post I might have just rated again.    Actually trying to read MT on my phone is a pain in the rear, I don't really visit here that often anymore, and it's usually only on my phone when I don't have my lap top to keep me busy.   Scrolling through the pages it's hard for me to read and I'm not all of that coordinated when it comes to texting/typing or whatever on the phone.    Heck if I'm accidentally posting stuff on people's posts, then....... that makes it even worse.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 7, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> Again I apologize, as I was reading a few minutes ago on my phone, I noticed your messages, after I was done eating I came to the library to do some work BUT I thought I had better answer you all first after I booted up the lap top.
> 
> This particular quote I believed that I had removed the disagree or whatever negative symbol I accidentally posted on it right after I clicked on it.   I clicked remove as I recall.
> 
> Anyway a few minutes ago while scrolling through the thread and eating my phone screen goes dark and I tap the screen to brighten it and once again on this thread another icon pops up like I was agreeing, liking, reporting, disagreeing, or something with a post.   The post was fine, it was a mistake.  I once again clicked remove.   I didn't care what it was, I didn't want to click on those icons at the bottom of the post.   SO I apologize to you two and to the person who's post I might have just rated again.    Actually trying to read MT on my phone is a pain in the rear, I don't really visit here that often anymore, and it's usually only on my phone when I don't have my lap top to keep me busy.   Scrolling through the pages it's hard for me to read and I'm not all of that coordinated when it comes to texting/typing or whatever on the phone.    Heck if I'm accidentally posting stuff on people's posts, then....... that makes it even worse.



My phone wrecks posts with autocorrect typos, that are auto-incorrect all the time, on this forum.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 7, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to say that I am bothered by it. But as I said: I am no fan of changing regs wrt time in rank.
> 
> You said:
> Standardization and consistency seem like reasonable goals and minimum times seem like reasonable steps to achieve this.
> ...



I agree with your statements about Standardization and Consistency is good, but I believe it should apply to the students and not just to the curriculum as a whole.   What I mean is that not everyone will be a great kicker, not everyone will be able to do the flying (insert any of the more advanced jumping, aerial type) kicks.   As people come into the art at different stages in their life as well as having different physical and learning challenges.

From my perspective my best students are often times the ones who have or face difficulties, these are also the students I learn the most from.   Teaching two martial art systems; Americanized TKD/Karate (ATK) and Presas Arnis (Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis blend) (PA) my ATK system is way easier to Standardize and for the gifted students to move through.   There the students who I refer to as "Rocket Ships" can easily cruise through kata, they can because they are gifted physically they can demonstrate the high kicks etc. etc.   But during regular class they just kind of cruise on auto pilot until the month before the exam then they kick it into gear.  Other students I refer to "Airplanes" they take off and slowly climb always moving upward with effort, till they reach the cruising altitude and then it's time for the exam.

Out of the two I'd prefer to have the "airplanes" any day.   They keep climbing regardless as long as they know there is a destination to be reached (the next rank).    They work harder because it takes them more effort and work to get there.

In the PA program it is harder to have consistency because everyone has different skills and abilities; some really like learning drills, some disarm better, some like to spar, some like locks and take downs.  So I have to look at their overall skill and understanding.  How they react as they are being fed different techniques, can they problem solve.   With so many different variations of locks, blocks, strikes, footwork, etc. etc. it's hard to sit back and say well you need to do this disarm to demonstrate that you are this rank, what happens if he doesn't show that one but instead over the course of his test demonstrated 10 others?

In regards to having two tracks I think the ideal way is just to have some flexibility built in the system.  For instance I had a young 7 yr old who for his next rank he needed to learn two forms, he took it upon himself to watch the higher ranked students whom he was in class with and learned two belts a head, then he comes to me and says "is this right?" he actually had the lower form backwards, and the highest form he had 90% (we are talking the major moves, not fine tuning the form) correct.  Well I straighten out both forms and at test time to award his good effort, I promoted him two ranks (not three, but two).  I used him as the example that other students should follow as in putting forth extra effort and so on.

In my PA class I have more flexibility in that if a student is in a class and I'm teaching a more senior drill or skill than generally the lower ranked student gets to learn it along side of the more senior students, so they are always being challenged.   Come test time it is based more on their overall skill than having learned this drill over that one or whatever.   



TSDTexan said:


> There are things like private lessons that accelerate one student ahead of his peers.
> 
> Then, you have schools that have retreats/monastic locations that class time is a 14 to 18 hour day for many months in duration.
> 
> If a student attends such a place he is going to advance far beyond a normal slow learners track.



I agree on both accounts, although I've never run into a student who came from one of those places.   However if someone came from one then there should be a way to have them get up to speed in the art that is being taught.



TSDTexan said:


> The problem of a one size fits all students, is that gifted and talented individuals who truely learn the curriculum faster suffer emotionally and can walk away because of a ranking system that doesn't flex.
> 
> Now a really good CI will teach him beyond his rank, if the student has really demonstrated competence in the material.



I don't think they suffer emotionally, they get bored.  So the goal is give them something they can hold onto to keep their interest.  One of the good things about being more independent is that I'm free to do what I want in regards to my curriculum.  So I teach two main arts the ATK and PA and then also teach Kobudo as a bridge art.   So if the student is getting bored then they can switch to another art and see if that art fits them better.

On top of this I also bring over concepts from the PA to the ATK system interchanging drills, especially empty hand drills, etc. etc.   For instance I have two young students (one of them is the student who learned the forms on his own) and they both have expressed learning weapons; I don't take students under 10 (usually) in the PA program but I started teaching them some basic double stick flow drills and then the stick form or two.   Now if they ever choose to cross over into the other system they will be ahead, as it is the drills and forms they are learning are keeping them interested in class.



TSDTexan said:


> But then you run into classmate disharmony as other equal ranked students see a fellow Beltrank, working on advanced material that they are not being given access too.
> 
> Keeping the gifted challenged is an instructor's silent nightmare.



This is so true but...... it can be handled.  Normally I don't have the students working in advanced material in the same class as their classmates.  For instance the students I referenced above train in a separate class after the others on one day of the week, Saturday.  My Kobudo class is reserved for advanced belts (under black), there if my students show up to learn weapons (They are both to young for the Kobudo class) I work with them on the side while the other instructors work with the other students.   So in their normal class during the weeknights they would not be working on disarms off to the side etc. etc.   However when getting ready for a tournament then they get some envious looks from the other kids when they demonstrate their weapons forms and the others are only doing empty hand forms.

But that is also the time that I let everyone know they are working extra outside of their classes and are keeping up with their "test" material in class.   That then generally settles everyone down.

My silent nightmare is dealing with parents who think their child should be testing when I don't think they are ready.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 7, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I am not not a fan of time in rank requirements, if they are adopted late in an organization's history.
> 
> It creates an unfair inequality between earlier students and current students.
> 
> Unfortunately, it doesn't really guarantee real world self defense ability or accurate/complete transmission of an art.



I am not a fan of time in rank requirements either, but not because they are adopted late in an organizations history.  When MDK first started out I'm sure there was plenty of things to work out, and over time those things changed as the art changed and grew.  It evolves, and I believe that any organization or martial art has the right to modify and change as it grows.   If I don't like it so be it.

I'm not a fan of time in rank if it is so structured that it is not flexible to benefit the student while still helping the art that it was meant to serve. But that has nothing to do with when it was implemented because it is the general overall principle of inflexibility or a rule that ultimately holds someone back that I object to.

I disagree that it creates inequality with anyone.   The art over time I'm sure has changed.  Take other styles of TKD, I know the ITF forms were created during the mid 60's, as teachers started adapting those forms did anyone have the right to say "No stop, that creates in equality, I didn't have to earn that form for this rank so the students going forward should have to either"   Chungi wasn't the first form created in the ITF, I think if I remember it was a mid brown belt form, so I'm using that as an example.   If at the beginning they didn't feel they needed time in rank, and now they do so be it.  If you don't like it no problem but it should be because of the principle behind it and not because of when it was introduced.

As to time in rank creating real world self defense or correct transmission of the art.    Well it was never designed to; it was implemented probably for quality control, and as a business practice.



TSDTexan said:


> The inequality I am referring to is during the 50s-60s and 70s the MDK wasn't really enforcing a previous time in lower rank requirement to promote.
> 
> Just being able to pass the arduous testing was enough. In fact back then the MDK had some Dan's double promote.
> 
> It is unfair to current students who can pass the same tests, but due to time in rank requirements, are unable to



OK I get that, but times change, standards change as the art changes. For instance the art was being taught in the early 60's at military bases not shopping malls, it was taught to adults not kids, they trained 5-6 hours a day (since they didn't do anything else in their spare time on the base) (I'm lucky if my students are training 5-6 hours a week ), and the service men were training for combat their life could have depended on their empty hand skills, it's different now.

(I'm sitting in a library and I just asked if they had his book, and they don't so going off of memory)
Speaking of tests have you read of Chuck Norris's account of his first test?  As I remember reading about it, the general idea was it was held in the winter with very little heat (if any) so it was very cold.   They sat in sezia (kneeling or with legs crossed) for a long time as everyone was testing.  (with no warm up) He got up cold to do his form with another student and blanked out (he forgot) and he was dismissed.   Now I don't remember if prior to that he had to do some really hard exam but it seemed pretty basic from what I recall in his book.   I'm not saying he wasn't tough, he wasn't good or any of that.  My point is should tests done today be done just like then?

Speaking as an instructor I have had students blank out on exams before, I have blanked out on exams and forgot my kata.  While I'm not proud that I did that it happens, I am proud that neither I nor my instructors have failed me for blanking out in a kata.     



TSDTexan said:


> And back then it wasn't uncommon for a soldier/airman/marine to rotate out at 18 months with a shodan rank.



But there are other reasons for this and it isn't as simple as it seems.

They (the Korean masters) wanted to spread the art, what better way than to have young service men spread the art for them.
On base there wasn't a lot for soldiers to do so many styles would have instructors teach on the bases or they located schools just out side of the bases to teach and earn $$.
The styles were just developing, it was pretty basic, as tournaments became more pronounced techniques became more sophisticated more advanced and they got taught to lower ranks.  So the MDK of the 50's-60's might not have been the MDK of the 70-80's.   Again look to Chuck Norris as a competitor he changed his fighting style and learned from others therefore his base or primary art changed.
Joe Lewis got his black belt in 9 months from an Okinawan Karate instructor so your point about not spending years earning a black belt is valid and I don't disagree with it.  But the Okinawans (and I'm sure the Koreans and Japanese) looked at it that these guys would come back and learn more from the instructors.  They would promote them in hopes to spread the art, and then often times the GIs wouldn't return.   So where the black belts the same?   They certainly didn't think so.  (I've read interviews with Japanese and Okinawan instructors who have said this.) 



TSDTexan said:


> When "Chuck" Norris failed his first shodan test in front of HWANG Kee, and JC Shin and others on the exam board in Seoul, he had about a month to correct what failed him and retested and passed before rotation back to the US.
> 
> Less than 18 months to shodan test back then...



Actually I think it was about a month to hear why he failed and then he tested a couple of months later.  However if he knew he failed because of blanking out on a form this isn't as big of a deal as you kind of make it out to be.  I mean I have kids who blank out and then do the form fine next week.



TSDTexan said:


> The training methods used in Korea, didn't work out in the US. Ask Robert Cheezicwhat happened in his first couple schools...
> 
> 100 dropout rate. The common complain was the training was too hard.
> 
> He like many others had to dial it back.



I don't doubt it, times have changed.   I mean my instructor's instructor use to hit his students with a shinai, should we do that to today's students?   Did it really make the student better? 



TSDTexan said:


> The problem is, that for those who are able and dedicated enough to train like the old guys at the tempo and intensity they did... the MDK won't even give them the opportunity to test.



OK I come back to agreeing with you with how I feel it is wrong to be inflexible but..... would this make me stop training in TSD or MDK if that is what goes on?   Not really if I really enjoyed the art.   To be honest, I haven't let belt rank or lack of belt rank, nor how long it took to get belt rank stop me yet from training in the arts.

Library is closing.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 7, 2017)

Mark Lynn said:


> My silent nightmare is dealing with parents who think their child should be testing when I don't think they are ready.




This...
This is why I never
A: wanted a really big school
B: accepted minors as students (among a few other reasons)


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 8, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Keeping the gifted challenged is an instructor's silent nightmare.



It can be done. Everybody has weaknesses, including the gifted.


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## Druid11 (Apr 8, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> The problem of a one size fits all students, is that gifted and talented individuals who truely learn the curriculum faster suffer emotionally and can walk away because of a ranking system that doesn't flex.
> 
> Keeping the gifted challenged is an instructor's silent nightmare.



My instructor said something in one of my classes that stuck in my head, "There are two times things are really enjoyable, when something is new and when you gain a degree of mastery.  The trick is to get through the period in the middle."

Depending on how you view martial arts (are they just a physical activity or something more), I would say that period in the middle is the most important.  It's the time when you say, "Maybe I'll skip going to class today."  And you have to decide if you'll listen to that voice or go to class anyway. So I would say making students wait a certain amount of time before testing or learning new material is actually a way to teach students to grow.  They have to learn to self-motivate and get through the boring bits.  The instructor can guide them, but it's really up to them to do it for themselves.  

So yes some students will walk away if they are made to wait X amount of time before testing, but the ones that stick it out and push through the middle part will be rewarded with not only advancement in martial arts but also in personal emotional growth.  YMMV but I think it's usually the "gifted" students that often times need to learn how to self- motivate the most (because things come easy to them) and probably most benefit from being made to wait.  So I don't really see any problem with a hard rule about how much time there must be between testing, especially between higher ranks.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 9, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What does your school charge for belt/exam fees?



If a new belt is awarded, $10 for the belt.  No fee for testing for promotion, no fee if there is no new actual belt awarded (for example, brown has three degrees, black has ten).



> And how many ranks in your school/system?



Different for adults and children.  Adult system:

White
Orange
Green
Blue
Brown (3 degrees)
Black (10 degrees)

Kids' system is similar, except there is a gold belt between white and orange, and stripes on the belts up to brown.

We get asked this a lot.  I'm never sure why.  I always feel like I'm walking into a trap by answering.  May I ask, why do you want to know?


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## JP3 (Apr 9, 2017)

Druid11 said:


> My instructor said something in one of my classes that stuck in my head, "There are two times things are really enjoyable, when something is new and when you gain a degree of mastery.  The trick is to get through the period in the middle."
> 
> Depending on how you view martial arts (are they just a physical activity or something more), I would say that period in the middle is the most important.  It's the time when you say, "Maybe I'll skip going to class today."  And you have to decide if you'll listen to that voice or go to class anyway. So I would say making students wait a certain amount of time before testing or learning new material is actually a way to teach students to grow.  They have to learn to self-motivate and get through the boring bits.  The instructor can guide them, but it's really up to them to do it for themselves.
> 
> So yes some students will walk away if they are made to wait X amount of time before testing, but the ones that stick it out and push through the middle part will be rewarded with not only advancement in martial arts but also in personal emotional growth.  YMMV but I think it's usually the "gifted" students that often times need to learn how to self- motivate the most (because things come easy to them) and probably most benefit from being made to wait.  So I don't really see any problem with a hard rule about how much time there must be between testing, especially between higher ranks.


I've been on all sides of this problem, I think. In TKD I was the gifted/talended athelete who could run fast, jump high, dance on a fence pole, lift heavy stuff, etc. So, TKD came easily to me.  It was (at the rank I was at) simple, straightforward and mainly the learning of new muscle and coordination skills.

And... then came judo.

All that stuff that made me naturally talented at TKD actually operated against me in Judo, as I'd very often violate my principles and just go back to "Mongo Toss!"  No good.  I had to spend a significant amount of time unlearning things so that I could actually make progress.  Thing was, I did learn it, and when I transitioned into the Tomiki aikido, it was a seamless fit, just moving a bit farther away (i.e. leaving the grappling clinch for.. call it boxing distance or a bit farther away).  I needed to be kept down, but to your point, I wasn't a G&T at judo, quite the opposite. In the TKD I got to accelerated test a couple of times, and in the end I wasn't sure that I should have been as my body was not yet  where it "should have been" to intake the new skillsets of the new rank.

In my own school, I usually use this approach.  "OK, this here is what you need to demo to get your next rank, but since you know how to dance that, sort of, for today we'll go ahead and work on this other thing." The other thing might be advanced, or it might have no relationship to the other things int he curriculum, maybe just something I experienced at a seminar. I'm not a wizard, I don't know what's going to connect with people, so I just offer it up, and if they like it then awesome.  But, on the back side I also tell them. "You're doing good for X rank, but I'm not looking at you as if you are X rank. I'm looking for much more than that, since I can tell it is there. I think you can, too. So don't expect to just float past. I see more, so I am expecting more. If I don't get more, you'll probably not pass."  So far, the challenge has worked every time. The student shifts into "I'll show him. I'm going to simply perfect the [what'sit], and then he'll have to acknowledge it."

And, if they do... I do. It works for me.

But, remember, in my place there is a lat of laughter and people having fun.  A judo frine of mine who is also a physical ed teacher and doctorate told me once that if the student is happy and engaged, more than 5 times the learning can take place. So, I have changed that idea into my own concept, "Laughing is where learning happens," and I try to keep things in that vein.  It's an interesting dichotomy when where talking about back positions that sever the spinal cord, I grant you...


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## TSDTexan (Apr 9, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If a new belt is awarded, $10 for the belt.  No fee for testing for promotion, no fee if there is no new actual belt awarded (for example, brown has three degrees, black has ten).
> 
> I just wanted to sound out the waters of the MT community, and see the lay of the land as it were.
> 
> ...


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## JP3 (Apr 9, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If a new belt is awarded, $10 for the belt.  No fee for testing for promotion, no fee if there is no new actual belt awarded (for example, brown has three degrees, black has ten).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's a standard question one instructor would ask of another for an economically feasible position, if the school is foreseen as an income center for such instructor. Mine isn't, for me.  For some strange reason, I've bought the belt for every single student I've ever promoted, my gift to them. Their gift to me is their time day after day, week after week, after all.

My tomiki system is like the above, white, green, 3 browns and then black for 10 degrees. Nobody in our organization is a 10th dan, as at this point they just aren't old enough assuming they stay on the mat and are healthy enough.


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## TSDTexan (Apr 9, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I've been on all sides of this problem, I think. In TKD I was the gifted/talended athelete who could run fast, jump high, dance on a fence pole, lift heavy stuff, etc. So, TKD came easily to me.  It was (at the rank I was at) simple, straightforward and mainly the learning of new muscle and coordination skills.
> 
> And... then came judo.
> 
> ...



Some day I would love to come by and randori, sound like a blast.


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## JP3 (Apr 9, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Some day I would love to come by and randori, sound like a blast.


Careful with that... Usually I take advantage of people who show up. I make them teach something from what they do or their favorite thing or whatever.

It's a ploy, of course.  That way I don't ever have to worry about getting my a$$ whupped in front of my people. I can almost always dream up enough lines of inquiry and questions about stuff to use up all 2 hours, and "Wow, look at the time. I'm hungry.  Let's get a beer."


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 9, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Careful with that... Usually I take advantage of people who show up. I make them teach something from what they do or their favorite thing or whatever.
> 
> It's a ploy, of course.  That way I don't ever have to worry about getting my a$$ whupped in front of my people. I can almost always dream up enough lines of inquiry and questions about stuff to use up all 2 hours, and "Wow, look at the time. I'm hungry.  Let's get a beer."


I would completely fall for that ploy, JP.


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## chevalierzachary (Apr 10, 2017)

My blackbelt test after i broke a brick with a knifehand cost me 250 dollars i am 1st dan in tae kwon do since 2004 i just tried other arts

Sent from my LGL52VL using Tapatalk


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## Buka (Apr 11, 2017)

I never paid for a belt test. Subsequently, I never charged for one, other than the five bucks for the belt - except brown and black. Couldn't very well charge anyone who put in that much work, and put up with the likes of me for that long.

But as I recently stated, if I test you for black now - it's a jillion dollars. Cash money, small bills.


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## JP3 (Apr 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I would completely fall for that ploy, JP.


Oh, I know. For that particular ploy you are low-hanging fruit as it's apparent we think along similar lines.  The one to try to actually talk rather than just putting me to the test is probably Drop.


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## msmitht (Apr 11, 2017)

When I was working for Korean GM in 90's he charged 55 for a stripe test and there were 3 stripes per belt, 8 belts before black. So 220 per belt total. When I was running my own I charged 20 per belt test with kkw fee at poom/Dan.
In BJJ we do not charge for a promotion.  Some schools have a test.  We test every day on the mat.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 24, 2017)

Dirty Dog said:


> We do "test" for 10th geup, but there is no fee. After passing the test for 10th geup, students are allowed to buy and wear a dobak and white belt.
> Our testing fees start at $42 for 9th geup and go up to $62 for 1st.
> The cost of new belts, rank certificates, and breaking materials comes out of these fees.
> Chodanbo is $75.
> ...



I thought you once said that you consider charging fees for promotion to be milking students out of more money.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I thought you once said that you consider charging fees for promotion to be milking students out of more money.



You've got a history of thinking a lot of weird, unsupportable things.


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