# When do the frauds come out?



## Gentle Fist (Jan 8, 2006)

After seeing some of these ridiculous internet soke boards and individuals that have posted here in the past (Bruce C), I have a question to throw out to the members of this board....

When do most of these frauds start making false claims.  Does it start once they receive a legit black belt or is it well before even that?

My guess would be the majority start before even dan rank...

What are your thoughts?


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## Kacey (Jan 8, 2006)

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> After seeing some of these ridiculous internet soke boards and individuals that have posted here in the past (Bruce C), I have a question to throw out to the members of this board....
> 
> When do most of these frauds start making false claims. Does it start once they receive a legit black belt or is it well before even that?
> 
> ...



I think it varies; some people are frauds from before they start, and their instructors don't catch them in time (or don't notice they aren't picking up the moral component, or don't teach it); some becme frauds as they gain rank and physical ability, and think there is nothing else to MA but that.  Others become frauds when they discover they can make money.  I don't think there's a single correct answer - it depends on the person's circumstances and background.


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

I would suspect fruad come early on in one training, even if they really have no training.I just can't see someone training for 3-4 years and then just become a fruad over night. Just my 2 cents worth.
Terry


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 8, 2006)

I think some people like to believe what they want even though deep down inside themselves they know they are utter liars.  I think it lies within the character of the person.  I mean you can have a guy coming out of a black belt mill where he gets his bb in a year or so and all of a sudden apply for one of these crazy organizations and become a Grandmaster of his own system.  Or you can have people with very little to no training at all claim that they hold high ranks from very shady styles or organizations that would be very hard to prove or disprove.  However, I would have to say that most of the fraud probably occurs before dan rank. In an average school it would take a while for you to reach shodan which means atleast there is a greater chance that the individual acquires some respect for the system if he or she reaches that level.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 8, 2006)

First of all, as others have said, I don't think they turn into frauds overnight - it is an integral part of their character that emerges at some point to the extent that the well informed and observant can see.

Two things motivate frauds, IMO; money and status. At some point the person with a character defect realizes one of two things (or both): one; there is no central governing body or standards for setting up a school or promoting (even one's self) to senior black belt rank, two; there is money to be made in the martial arts if a person plays their cards right and is motivated by financial considerations.


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## MJS (Jan 8, 2006)

I'd have to say that it depends on the person.  This can be something that is pre-determined or something that happens after they've begun their training.  Some people, it should be quite obvious, while others, they seem to have mastered the art of deceiving people.  

Mike


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 8, 2006)

for some people, being fraudulent is a way of life.......from their fake PhD's to their fake medal of honor to their fake 10th degree black belts. they make a life out of screwing others over......these are the worst kind of soke's or grandmasters. i imagine they did it with very little thought of how much hurt they were doing to others......they just wanted some notariety.
it happens less now because people arent as gullible about martial arts anymore.....and with the internet making the world smaller, makes it pretty easy to find the people that crap in their own backyard.


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## Sin (Jan 9, 2006)

Are we talking about someone who is a fraud on the forums and says they've trained, and are liying about it, or are we speaking of someone who starts a school similer to the Napoleon Dynamite's Rex-Kwon Do.

In either case, it usaually is apparent if anyone has had any training on the forums, and in real life, and your just starting out, be smart about it...just shop around and see whats up...Frauds should just be left alone, there shouldn't be a vendetta aginst them, because they're not doing anything Illegal, unless they are using copyrighted material, and or they're starting Dojo wars and such.  Then you can just call the police...


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## Henderson (Jan 9, 2006)

Sin said:
			
		

> Napoleon Dynamite's Rex-Kwon Do


Don't forget about the secret ninja moves from the government! :ultracool


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## searcher (Jan 9, 2006)

AS soon as they open their mouth.   This is right after the say,"Hi, my name is__________, and I am the instructor here."


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## Sin (Jan 9, 2006)

Yeah, you can kinda get a feel for who is and isn't entirely truthful about there training...Or they are completly dilusional...


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## shesulsa (Jan 9, 2006)

*Moderator Note:*

Thread moved to Horror Stories. - G Ketchmark / shesulsa, MT Moderator


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## Kreth (Jan 9, 2006)

I think that it's a personality type, and you will have frauds from the newbie level, all the way up to the self-styled grandmasters (many of whom are also newbies).
I got paired with a new student once during a grappling class. He told me not to take it easy on him during sparring, as he was a "streetfighter." His technique was so sloppy that I didn't even bother trying to escape his guard, and choked him out with hon jime while he tried desperately to fend me off with a weak do jime.


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## Don Roley (Jan 12, 2006)

I have run across a lot of frauds in my time on the internet. I have come up with the conclusion that they are pretty much born that way.

There are just certain people that want attention. Money may be a factor, but there are easier ways of bilking people out of money through various scams.

Wanting attention is not bad in itself. All the Olympic athletes do so for the chance to be known to the world as the best. Bruce Lee, Charlie Chaplin... the names of people you know are probably mainly those that wanted to be known by others.

The thing is, all of them _worked damn hard_ to get to a place where they had a lot of attention paid to them.

I do not believe that many frauds start out on good footing. Kreth's story of how he got teamed up with a guy who wanted to impress him by dropping the fact that he was a street fighter is a perfect example. It starts with small stories, and then the lies get bigger and bigger and the person gets wrapped up more and more in keeping the image alive.

People like Kreth's streetfighter may train for a while, but soon find they are not doing as well as they want people to think. That is when they make the full break to outright fraud.

Take a look at most frauds and you will see deception revolving around making themselves look good in a variety of manners. Find someone who has lied about being taught by an old Asian master and you will probably also find stories about being in the military that are just as false. Frank Dux, Yo Sato, David D'antonio, Jack Stern, etc are all great examples of people who have lied about their military as well as their martial arts experiences.

And I think that they never get to a master level because they are so concerned with how people think of them. The typical master, real master, usually is only known after a few decades of work. If you went back in time before he was known you would see someone falling on their face a lot. If you learn from those experiences you gain a lot. After a lot of mistakes and learning from them they eventually get to a point where they know enough to be repected.

But the fraud starts out caring a lot about what people think. So he tries not to put himself in position where he could make a mistake and be seen. Thus he does not get a chance to learn much from his mistakes. And if most of us made a mistake, we would go out and learn how to correct it. Maybe we would go out and find a teacher that could help us. But the fraud just can't admit what he did was a mistake because he cares so much about his status. He can't drop teaching to go back to being a student. He cares so much about being seen as a master that he can't really admit that he has things to learn from others- no matter what they say.

Wow, this has turned into a long post. But I think some of you will see what I am talking about when you examine some of the frauds you have run across.


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## kroh (Jan 12, 2006)

AS some one previously said, we have the internet, better business beureau, and the ability to contact real martial arts muckitymmmucks who are in the know.  Frauds are an endangered species.  Their not extinct yet but we now have more convenient ways to hunt them.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Flatlander (Jan 12, 2006)

I think it's an ego problem.  They discover that they get the occasional "oooh" from the few they are able to impress, and get addicted to the attention and false respect they receive.  So, they find whatever way they can to keep up the charade.  

It's no different than the guy who lies about his job, status, etc. to try to impress women, or the person that manipulates their resume to land a sweet job.  It's where greed, ego, self esteem, laziness, and impatience all intersect.


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## kroh (Jan 12, 2006)

flatlander said:
			
		

> It's no different than the guy who lies about his job, status, etc. to try to impress women, or the person that manipulates their resume to land a sweet resume. It's where greed, ego, self esteem, laziness, and impatience all intersect.


 
Great quote...Now if we could only get an olympic runner to go around the country tagging this up as a sign at every Fraudojo...The only problem is having the proof so as to not mis-label anyone.

Regards, 
Walt


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## Drac (Jan 12, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Don't forget about the secret ninja moves from the government! :ultracool


 
Don't forget the "secret" techniques that have been handed down to ONLY one individual because he has proven himself worthy of such knowledge..


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## Aikido13 (Jan 25, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have run across a lot of frauds in my time on the internet. I have come up with the conclusion that they are pretty much born that way.
> 
> There are just certain people that want attention. Money may be a factor, but there are easier ways of bilking people out of money through various scams.
> 
> ...


 
What information do you have about Yo Sato?


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## Don Roley (Jan 28, 2006)

Aikido13 said:
			
		

> What information do you have about Yo Sato?



William,
It helps if you quote only those sections relevant to your question instead of the whole post.

Here is some information on Yo Sato.

http://www.specsec.org/CDWall.html

It kind of shows proof to my statement that those that lie about martial arts also lie about military feats as well. I have heard many times the statement, "why would he be lying if he does not make a living off of martial arts?" Well, why do people lie about being a Vietnam Green Beret? It is not about money, it is about ego. And someone that cares so much about making other people think that they are some sort of macho commando would not stop at lying about their martial arts training.


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## kroh (Jan 28, 2006)

Man, that site is scarry. I did a few years in the army but when people ask...i did a few years in the army. 

Anyhoo...It would seem that there is a lot of fraud in the martial arts due to parranoia. Everyone is worried they could get attacked and that makes for an easy target to those who believe P.T. Barnum. I know alot of people think that martial arts should be strictly regulated because of this but who would come to the front to judge what is valid and what is not? Not to mention how such regulation would stiffle some of the creativity that lead to such things as JKD and Mixed Martial Arts as well as _full contact scrabble!_ :idunno: NOt to mention the fact that when government gets into anything there will be lines and fees. Could you imagine going to a place that instead of the DMV you would have to go to the DMA? "_Now serving number 5...3...3....at window number 6"_

The net is probably the best defense we have against overwhelming frauds. IF people just use their heads and hit such fine establishments as MARTIAL TALK! then they should be ok. Better business beureau is always good against the bigger chain places. 


Regards,
Walt

P.S. Mr. Roley, I frequently read some of your posts on other sites and how you deal with frauds. Thanks for at least doing your part so the rest of us can train safely without fear of being taken advantage of. Good stuff...


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## celtic_crippler (Jan 28, 2006)

I'm not surprised. These people definately have self-esteem issues. What is sad is that they are in fact doing harm to others. By instilling false confidence and committing fraud. 

It is this very reason that I support legislation for the licensing of all martial arts schools/organizations by state and/or the federal government. The general public does not know enough about how to "shop" martial arts schools. I feel all schools/organizations should have to display their credentials and that the government should have a board of certified professionals to validate all martial art schools and what they teach.


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## Don Roley (Jan 29, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> P.S. Mr. Roley, I frequently read some of your posts on other sites and how you deal with frauds. Thanks for at least doing your part so the rest of us can train safely without fear of being taken advantage of. Good stuff...



Personally, I think it is sad that I have to take so much time to counter the many claims of frauds on the internet. I would love to be reading things fo value and helping out in any way I can. But frauds tend to do things for attention and if you try to ignore them, they take over the forum.

I just turned down a chance to make some money today as a fact checker for an article on ninjutsu. The entire article was flawed. The author was obviously trying his best, but had no real background in the matter. One of the sources he seems to have used the most was a PDF file from Ashida Kim!

I would love to talk about and even debate things with other people to further our understanding. But since the frauds are so intent on putting out stuff that will gain them attention, the entire knowledge base is flawed and we spend more time dealing with the myths spread by these bozos than in dealing with gaining a deeper understanding of what we do.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 29, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it is sad that I have to take so much time to counter the many claims of frauds on the internet. I would love to be reading things fo value and helping out in any way I can. But frauds tend to do things for attention and if you try to ignore them, they take over the forum.
> 
> I just turned down a chance to make some money today as a fact checker for an article on ninjutsu. The entire article was flawed. The author was obviously trying his best, but had no real background in the matter. One of the sources he seems to have used the most was a PDF file from Ashida Kim!
> 
> I would love to talk about and even debate things with other people to further our understanding. But since the frauds are so intent on putting out stuff that will gain them attention, the entire knowledge base is flawed and we spend more time dealing with the myths spread by these bozos than in dealing with gaining a deeper understanding of what we do.


 
Yes, and ultimately I think it takes more effort to maintain one's self as a fraud than it does to seek and achieve legitimate training and qualifications.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 29, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it is sad that I have to take so much time to counter the many claims of frauds on the internet. I would love to be reading things fo value and helping out in any way I can. But frauds tend to do things for attention and if you try to ignore them, they take over the forum.



Yes they do try to take over a forum and spin things to have those either calling them out or the staff to be called into question. 

The initial question of when do the Frauds come out? I find they come out when you shine a light on them and they begin to spin things. I agree that they were always there, and always had that ego/personality. 

Sometimes I would like to just go away and leave general masses to fend for themselves and the boards to fall into infights and such. Yet, I find myself still helping. Although recently I have not had to much if any invovlement, and it has been better. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I just turned down a chance to make some money today as a fact checker for an article on ninjutsu. The entire article was flawed. The author was obviously trying his best, but had no real background in the matter. One of the sources he seems to have used the most was a PDF file from Ashida Kim!



Don, Don, Don,  ** Shakes Head :idunno: ** 
How can you not take their money.  
I mean this would be you then writing the whole article for them from scratch. Oh sorry, sarcasm is not the best way to communicate. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I would love to talk about and even debate things with other people to further our understanding. But since the frauds are so intent on putting out stuff that will gain them attention, the entire knowledge base is flawed and we spend more time dealing with the myths spread by these bozos than in dealing with gaining a deeper understanding of what we do.



Yes the myths are great. Even the engineers I work with who need a thousand data points before they believe something about a system they are working or testing, yet they think a black belt can dodge bullets, just like Matrix. :idunno:


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## kroh (Jan 29, 2006)

> they think a black belt can dodge bullets, just like Matrix


 
You can't dodge bullets?  Keep training...you'll get there :btg: 

Sorry couldnt resist...
Regards, 
Walt


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 29, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> You can't dodge bullets?  Keep training...you'll get there :btg:
> 
> Sorry couldnt resist...
> Regards,
> Walt



I thought I would concentrate on the levitation like in Crouching Tiger ...
as soon as I can get  that down I will then move onto the more advanced technqiues. 

************ NOTE This is *sarcasm* people *****************


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## Don Roley (Feb 2, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Don, Don, Don,  ** Shakes Head :idunno: **
> How can you not take their money.
> I mean this would be you then writing the whole article for them from scratch. Oh sorry, sarcasm is not the best way to communicate.



It actually worked out. I think it is one of those works where no one is credited and so they asked me to be a co-author. I was able to throw out everything that was bad (well over 50 percent at least) and replace it with something much firmer in reality. I don't think you will see my name mentioned, or anyone's, but at least I am not stepping on anyone's toes or letting bad information get out.

I still want to slap Ashida Kim silly over the whole mess.:whip:


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## Cryozombie (Feb 2, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I still want to slap Ashida Kim silly over the whole mess.:whip:



All you need is like 10 grand...


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## kroh (Feb 2, 2006)

I think some one tried the ten grand thing and some one (ahem...) backed out.  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Aegis (Feb 2, 2006)

kroh said:
			
		

> I think some one tried the ten grand thing and some one (ahem...) backed out.
> 
> Regards,
> Walt


I's happened at least twice now!


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## kroh (Feb 2, 2006)

did they get the resplendant grand master to actually throw down?
Regards,
Walt


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## Aegis (Feb 4, 2006)

Oh no, both times he wussed out with some flimsy excuses.  The challenge is actually false advertising, as he quite clearly won't honour it.


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