# sparring: the secret ingredient to becoming a fighter?



## Lestat83 (Mar 24, 2015)

I just wanted to put down my thoughts on becoming a better fighter in general in the martial arts...i am fairly new to Wing Tchun...i am from a non associated Leung Ting school in the UK that does sparring. I wanted to see if people spar and how important it is for your development as a martial artists...?

Ok this post will upset people i have no doubt about that, but thats really not my intention here.
I wanted to talk about several things that are trained during sparring...the right attitude...confidence under fire...the use of agression.

In wing chun theres a saying:
"press forward when the way is open" which means when there is an opening or when you are not being attacked:

Find an opening and exploit
create an opening and exploit 

You will never win a war by being the victim, by waiting for bombs to drop on you.
You win a war by dropping bombs on the enemy and damaging targets. 
Every chance you give an opponent to drop a bomb, the more likely will get hit. The more likely you will loose.

Maybe i cant see the whole picture but from my experience the only way to train the aggressive attitude, the fearlessness of being hit, the confidence to press forward and finish off your opponent is through sparring. What i see is when people dont spar: there defences collapse under furious assaults and they simply dont know how to handle someone swinging at them psychologically or physically. Even worse when they get hit their training goes out the window.

People who dont spar dont understand or know how to use aggression...how to wage a war with their fists on a non compliant opponent.
Because of a lack of confidence/experience/the right attitude... they are passive when they spar for the first time and i see them overwhelmed by furious assaults cause they wait there for an invitation to attack their opponent with the intention of actually stopping him.

I just feel sparring is quite fundamental in developing as a fighter. I just think how can you learn to swim if you never go into the water...? Yet many in kung fu feel they are too dangerous to spar etc etc etc...so have no real understanding of how actually dangerous they are. 

It becomes painfully obvious who is and who isnt an effective fighter when they spar with someone experienced. Sure they might believe they are deadly but quite frankly unless you can show your skills or your ability then its just a fantasy.


Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> You will never win a war by being the victim, by waiting for bombs to drop on you.
> You win a war by dropping bombs on the enemy and damaging targets.


This attitude is very important. When you are in the ring or on the mat, you want to act like a tiger and eat your opponent alive. When you are off the ring/mat, you will act like a sheep, the most friendly person on earth.

Here is one of my favor jokes.

- I want to walk in the Central Park.
- It's not safe there. you may get mugged.
- That's why I'm going over there. I'm a bit short on cash.
- ...

Even if you may not want to treat yourself as a predictor, you should definitely not want to treat yourself as a prey either.


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## Drose427 (Mar 24, 2015)

It depends on how you define sparring And what you intend to do.

Many of the things you listed can easily be learned without continuous free sparring By various full speed and full contact drills. Theyre still someone twice your size barreling down on you. Remember, for advance belts step sparring is usually just for testing out new things, there are different drills and exercises for techs that are natural. 

The Ninjutsu guys who used to come to our tournament and compete in forms always came with cuts and bruises, and were always able to defend themselves against anyone who knew they didnt free spar and wanted to see if they were capable of SD. This included the MMA guys we'd get who regularly competed there to compliment their TMA training or vice versa. They also took down a Naval Cadet my first year. People would always ask to go in the hall and be shown and the ninjutsu guys would usually just say, "okay come at me". And after one or two techs, theyd take the guy down 

They didnt do free sparring, but they did all their drills and bunkai excercises with the attacker coming full speed and full power.

But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable.

Personally, i will always have anyone i work with or teach ome day free spar. Not because i think they couldnt defend themselves without it, but the little things.

I.e., if they new a fight was coming or felt in danger, is rather then be used to light footwork and movement which you dont always get with free sparring. Its not the only way to get that, but i think its one of the easiest


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is one of my favor jokes.
> 
> - I want to walk in the Central Park.
> - It's not safe there. you may get mugged.
> ...



I can't even comment on the thread right now because I'm laughing too hard.
That was really funny.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 24, 2015)

I agree. Sparring is probably the best way to pressure-test martial skill and field-strap techniques and tactics for real-life application. The more stressful, the better.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 24, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> I agree. Sparring is probably the best way to pressure-test martial skill and field-strap techniques and tactics for real-life application. The more stressful, the better.


I like sparring.  I enjoy it.  But I think Drone is right, there are other ways to get good. Scenario based training for example. My problem with sparring is that it often becomes a give and take type exercise and if your looking to get good at street fighting the goal should be for it to be a one way exchange. Me dominating the other guy. 
Some other problems with sparring is incorrect cadence and intensity compared to street fighting. Often because of chosen style there is a one dimensional quality to it.  Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls that disrupt and often disorient the combatants.
If you include or account for these then sure sparring is a good vehicle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls ... Scenario based training ...


If you can integrate sparring and wrestling together, you won't have such concern.

The 

- "scenario based training (such as a hay-maker at your head)" is used to "develop" your combat skill. 






- "sparring/wrestling" is used to "test" your combat skill.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

"But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.


 To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."

Why would there be a difference?


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> I like sparring.  I enjoy it.  But I think Drone is right, there are other ways to get good. Scenario based training for example. My problem with sparring is that it often becomes a give and take type exercise and if your looking to get good at street fighting the goal should be for it to be a one way exchange. Me dominating the other guy.
> Some other problems with sparring is incorrect cadence and intensity compared to street fighting. Often because of chosen style there is a one dimensional quality to it.  Sparring tends not to engage in grabs, pushes, shoves and pulls that disrupt and often disorient the combatants.
> If you include or account for these then sure sparring is a good vehicle.



This comes into my concept of bad partner training.

And that sometimes you just have to be a jerk about these things to give a realistic environment.


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## Danny T (Mar 25, 2015)

There are different types of sparring. Fight Sports sparring is different from Touch and Stop competition sparring. Fight back sparring as in a self-defense attack is different from Fight Sports sparring. Bladed weapon sparring is different from boxing sparring. What is the point of the sparring? What one is training for / sparring for will have a different sparring aspect.


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## Drose427 (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> "But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.
> 
> 
> To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."
> ...



Because you can do enough scenario drilling and attacls to defend yourself against an attacker.

But thats a far cry from fighting a 3 round match


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## Danny T (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> "But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.
> 
> 
> To defend oneself from an attack? Free sparring is debatable."
> ...



Self defense is completely different than fight sports. The mindset is different, the goal is different, the strategies are different, the intent is different, the agreements are different, the timelines are different, the training methods are different, the sparring will be different.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Self defense is completely different than fight sports. The mindset is different, the goal is different, the strategies are different, the intent is different, the agreements are different, the timelines are different, the training methods are different, the sparring will be different.



So say you don't want to get punched in the face. Is that a sports mentality or a sd mentality?


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## Danny T (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So say you don't want to get punched in the face. Is that a sports mentality or a sd mentality?


Now that is Funny! Maybe you should present that question to those who say they love the hits and spar for the ko.
Do you feel that self defense is the same as sport fighting and that the mentality is the same?


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Now that is Funny! Maybe you should present that question to those who say they love the hits and spar for the ko.
> Do you feel that self defense is the same as sport fighting and that the mentality is the same?



Depends how you are defining the mentality. In simplest terms I would say not really. "this guy wants to hurt me. I am going to stop him doing that"

There are some situational differences depending on the person and the attack.


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## Mephisto (Mar 25, 2015)

Sparring can be done with different rules and for different contexts but I disagree with Dose's assertion that situational drills are an adequate replacement for sparring unless of course those drills involve hard contact in an unscripted manner. I disagree with the idea of too much give and take in sports sparring. A sparring match can have different focuses even with the sport context. With a less skilled guy I work defense, I know when Ive got him and I'll ease up, to avoid giving out concussions. If the sparring is more even matched there's no going easy. 

I don't think someone training for the street necessarily needs to train to go for 3/3min rounds. You could do an all out one minute round. But the conditioning that going longer rounds offers is a good benefit. And generally the more fit fighter will have the advantage.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> There are different types of sparring. Fight Sports sparring is different from Touch and Stop competition sparring. Fight back sparring as in a self-defense attack is different from Fight Sports sparring. Bladed weapon sparring is different from boxing sparring. What is the point of the sparring? What one is training for / sparring for will have a different sparring aspect.


|
Right.  We shouldn't we lump all 'sparring' together as the same type of sparring.  In addition, whatever type or approach one is taking, there should be some standards to keep it accomplishing a martial objective.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Sparring can be done with different rules and for different contexts but I disagree with Dose's assertion that situational drills are an adequate replacement for sparring unless of course those drills involve hard contact in an unscripted manner. I disagree with the idea of too much give and take in sports sparring. A sparring match can have different focuses even with the sport context. With a less skilled guy I work defense, I know when Ive got him and I'll ease up, to avoid giving out concussions. If the sparring is more even matched there's no going easy....


|
Pointed out by another poster, another T on Shotokan bunkai: differentiate a drill demonstration, from learning the drill, from practicing the drill, to adding some resistance to the drill, to pressure testing the drill... to Drose427 realistic scenario.  There's a spectrum here.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> _*People who dont spar dont understand or know how to use aggression...how to wage a war with their fists on a non compliant opponent.*_
> Because of a lack of confidence/experience/the right attitude... they are passive when they spar for the first time and i see them overwhelmed by furious assaults cause they wait there for an invitation to attack their opponent with the intention of actually stopping him.


|
This is the 'SPORT FIGHTING' MENTALITY.  Lack of sparring--EXPERIENCE & Lack of confidence--THE MENTAL CLARITY DIMENSION,  are two separate characteristics.



Lestat83 said:


> I just feel sparring is quite fundamental in developing as a fighter. *I just think how can you learn to swim if you never go into the water...?* Yet many in kung fu feel they are too dangerous to spar etc etc etc...so have no real understanding of how actually dangerous they are.


Traditional karate is mental discipline.  Swimming is an athletic activity.  Oranges to Apples.
|
I do very little free sparring @ my dojo--declining whenever I can.  Yet the aggressive, furious attackers you describe can't handle me.  That aside, the traditional karate curriculum has 3 components: kihon, kata, kumite.  Free sparring is a requirement of the curriculum.... and for belt-rank testing.  A rounded approach is recommended by traditional karate.



Lestat83 said:


> Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol


|
Not so for the mentally-adept karate fighter.....


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## Lestat83 (Mar 25, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> 
> Traditional karate is mental discipline.  Swimming is an athletic activity.  Oranges to Apples.
> |


I wasnt talking about swimming...it was a metaphore for: unless you immerse yourself in an environment how can you expect to thrive in it?

Or a safe approximation that allows for training...ie controlled sparring.

Ie if all you do is practice swimming on dry land do you really think once in the water you wont sink?

I apologise i was taking poetic license and wasnt being very direct 

I have to say this thread is proving very interesting...to me the most interesting point is that sparring exists as a spectrum where certain parts of it more adequetely prepare you for certain scenarios:

Eg certain training prepares you better for self defence, while other parts train you better for multiple round competition fighting. Whatever our views im sure we can all agree that whichever part of the spectrum our sparring falls in...that there are transferable skills eg: the mindset of stopping, punishing your opponent. The confidence to handle his incomming artillery. The agression to give him a really bad day.

The type of sparring does determine which weapons we will use...fists, elbows etc...which personally bothers me. I would love to train headbutts in sparring.

I disagree with the assertion that saying im really going to hurt my attacker is a sporting based mentality...i suspect this is art/school dependant as in my Wing Tchun/school we are left in no doubt that the aim is to "disable" the opponent so that he is no longer a threat to us. We are a self defence focussed school.

Loving the concept of talking about martial arts as a mental discipline.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> I wasnt talking about swimming...it was a metaphore for: unless you immerse yourself in an environment how can you expect to thrive in it?
> 
> Or a safe approximation that allows for training...ie controlled sparring.
> 
> ...


Heck no, there's lot's us in the same "boat."  Get it, swimmer / in the boat / swimmer?



Lestat83 said:


> I have to say this thread is proving very interesting...to me the most interesting point is that sparring exists as a spectrum where certain parts of it more adequetely prepare you for certain scenarios:
> 
> Eg certain training prepares you better for self defence, while other parts train you better for multiple round competition fighting. Whatever our views im sure we can all agree that whichever part of the spectrum our sparring falls in...that there are transferable skills eg: the mindset of stopping, punishing your opponent. The confidence to handle his incomming artillery. The agression to give him a really bad day.


That's the general way I feel....



Lestat83 said:


> The type of sparring does determine which weapons we will use...fists, elbows etc...which personally bothers me. I would love to train headbutts in sparring.


Ouch!



Lestat83 said:


> I disagree with the assertion that saying im really going to hurt my attacker is a sporting based mentality...i suspect this is art/school dependant as in my Wing Tchun/school we are left in no doubt that the aim is to "disable" the opponent so that he is no longer a threat to us. We are a self defence focussed school.


No doubt we have _some_ _difference_ in principles....  The maxim that you have to engage to get beat up means that this is how you learn to beat some one up, traditional karate doesn't agree, or TMA for that matter IMO.  Do we benefit from reality training/ testing--sure.



Lestat83 said:


> Loving the concept of talking about martial arts as a mental discipline.


Well that's what it is.  It's not a physcial sport where you do drills over & over then just let your body react like doing layups.
|
This is one reason the Shotokan for Self-Defense thread expanded so much--differing views on that.  //PAUSE//  I'm not big on the Shotokan karate style--it's much too physical & aggressive  in it's presentation & conventions for me.  Yet at the same time(IMO), that is it's point.  Taking the physical & showing the mental discipline is takes to do some much heavy physicality & aggression in a precise, organized & deliberately ordered way.
|
There's a great YT vid of Shotokan karate line sparring done this way <<IMO>> that another poster put up @ the Shotokan for Self Defense T; or maybe the MMA is Not a Real Martial Art T.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

KIME, by traditional karate standards, is a part of that Shotokan line-training kumite exercise.


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## Hyoho (Mar 25, 2015)

The secret is....you could already fight before you did M.A. and it now needs channeling into some form or other including some hard repetition work.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Lestat83 said:


> ....Strikers vs grapplers is a completely different ball game lol


|
My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, *the one people love to hate*.  Someone mentioned TSD.  Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you.






Hyoho said:


> The secret is....you could already fight before you did M.A. and it now needs channeling into some form or other including some hard repetition work.


|
Okay, here's the TMA way.  Now are they training reactions--or is the exercise training "mental clarity & KIME."  Are they training the body to do technique--or synchronized body involvement into technique?
|
IOW, how does staged kumite fit into the secret sauce, so to speak?


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2015)

If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.

If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way. 

I just can't see _not_ sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Buka said:


> If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.
> 
> If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way.
> 
> I just can't see _not_ sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.



It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.



Options.....

Spellchecker.


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## mograph (Mar 25, 2015)

I found the "edit" button: It's at the bottom left of the post. Took me a while.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

mograph said:


> I found the "edit" button: It's at the bottom left of the post. Took me a while.



Doesn't work on my phone.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

"My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, the one people love to hate. Someone mentioned TSD. Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you."

Breaks basic grabbing principles in that the further you reach for someone the less effective you are going to be when you grab them.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> The Ninjutsu guys who used to come to our tournament and compete in forms always came with cuts and bruises, and were always able to defend themselves against anyone who knew they didnt free spar and wanted to see if they were capable of SD. This included the MMA guys we'd get who regularly competed there to compliment their TMA training or vice versa. They also took down a Naval Cadet my first year. People would always ask to go in the hall and be shown and the ninjutsu guys would usually just say, "okay come at me". And after one or two techs, theyd take the guy down
> 
> They didnt do free sparring, but they did all their drills and bunkai excercises with the attacker coming full speed and full power.
> 
> But, if one of them wanted to do kickboxing or MMA, theyd have to start free sparring.



A bit off topic, but… that doesn't sound like Ninjutsu… we don't have forms in such a fashion, nor do we have "bunkai", or "drills" the way is suggested here. Fake ninjutsu… yeah… but that's because they're copying what they think martial arts are, with karate as a basis… nothing to do with the actual art at all… 



Buka said:


> I just can't see _not_ sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.



Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.


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## Tez3 (Mar 26, 2015)

It depends on what 'type' of fighting you are looking at as to what the magic ingredient is. If it's competition fighting then the magic ingredient is fitness, no good being the most aggressive, most proficient fighter going if you simply gas after the first few seconds


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.



Yes, I realize that. I read your posts, often learning much from them. I was speaking of my own particular journey and those who have journeyed with me.

But, pleased to meet you.


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## Mephisto (Mar 26, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> My View on Strikers vs. Grappler, *the one people love to hate*.  Someone mentioned TSD.  Here's a vid (a DEMONSTRATION) of defense to an opponent reaching out to GRAB you.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what the video has to do with striking vs grappling. In a fight or self defense situation it seems pretty unlikely that someone will grab your wrist. The wrist grab seems to be a basic building block of many systems to teach basic mechanics. Its not an explanation of what to do when facing a grappler. Not to mention there's no need for an elaborate escape from a wrist grab, in my system we just punch to the face. But it can be a fundamental building block to the learning process, it's still taking the long route imo.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 26, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'm not sure what the video has to do with striking vs grappling. In a fight or self defense situation it seems pretty unlikely that someone will grab your wrist. The wrist grab seems to be a basic building block of many systems to teach basic mechanics.





Mephisto said:


> It's affording basic principles, within a specific illustration.  That's what it is.
> Its not an explanation of what to do when facing a grappler. Not to mention there's no need for an elaborate escape from a wrist grab, in my system we just punch to the face. But it can be a fundamental building block to the learning process, it's still taking the long route imo.


|
Ha, ha.  I couldn't agree more with your tactical critique.  It's one that's definitely on my plate....   But I see more.  It's gives me a grappling counter to a grappling move.  Someone reaches to grab me or move my guard on the way to a takedown, OR then maybe a punch in the face--it's gives me an out, sets up the counter move.
|
Remember, it's a demo.  In practice it will become faster & more resistive.  The valuable lesson is the quality of how you respond.
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And don't forget these are taught as a set (that build) in the traditional karate curriculum....
|
Thanks for chiming in....


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2015)

"Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."

How well do you perform in fights?


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## Drose427 (Mar 26, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> A bit off topic, but… that doesn't sound like Ninjutsu… we don't have forms in such a fashion, nor do we have "bunkai", or "drills" the way is suggested here. Fake ninjutsu… yeah… but that's because they're copying what they think martial arts are, with karate as a basis… nothing to do with the actual art at all…
> 
> 
> 
> Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record.





drop bear said:


> "Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."
> 
> How well do you perform in fights?



Drop Bear, I quoted Chris for you so you can hopefully get a quicker reply

My guess? Drilling. 

could easily be wrong though


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 26, 2015)

Buka said:


> If you're striking - the distance changes, it isn't constant. The distance changes in sparring all the time. Sometimes you control it sometimes he controls it. Learning from this is important, IMO.


|
The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time.   The dynamic you cite is the sport-fighting experience where the opponents trade sorties, he does one, you react, then you do one, he reacts.  Classic MMA fight, boxing match, K-1 etc....  Kyo's typically fight a lot like this too--why I don't like Kyokushin karate conventional kumite.
|
Moreover, I'm not really controlling the distance, I'm targeting the opponent....



Steve said:


> If you're grappling, the positions change. Sometimes you control more of those changes, sometimes he does. When you're rolling, it kind of goes the same way


|
Right, Matt Bryers MMA demo.... not what I do....



Steve said:


> I just can't see _not_ sparring in Martial Arts. Kind of a bottom line for me and for everyone I've ever trained with.


This is why the traditional karate model has kumite.  How you approach kumite & what weight you give it in the training remains the open question.
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A traditional karateka who doesn't free spar much can look to other parts of the curriculum for a stronger or stronger base from which to actually fight...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> "Well, consider yourself introduced to someone who doesn't do any sparring, then… in any of my systems. Nor do a range of other systems, for the record."
> 
> How well do you perform in fights?



What do you mean by "fight"?


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time.   The dynamic you cite is the sport-fighting experience where the opponents trade sorties, he does one, you react, then you do one, he reacts.  Classic MMA fight, boxing match, K-1 etc....  Kyo's typically fight a lot like this too--why I don't like Kyokushin karate conventional kumite.
> |
> Moreover, I'm not really controlling the distance, I'm targeting the opponent....
> ...


Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out. In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism.


What I have observed and experienced in free sparring is how I've stated it.  We certainly both agree there's an error of some sort there....


Mephisto said:


> The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out.


|
Yes, I see your point.  You assume equal, however, my plan to be superior in karate preparation.  ON the ranging in & out, this is a common believe as the best way to deal with an opponent.  I point to both the traditional karate kumite exercises which do so on a tactically necessary basis; as well the older Okinawan styles which stress in-fighting to the finish.  These is no ranging in & out like you typically see in sport karate or say the conventional Shotokan point fighting kumite style.
|


Mephisto said:


> In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.


|
There's truth here but there is a stated goal in the self-defense precept for traditional karate is that you hurt the opponent to end the fight.  Boxer's often seek to wear down there opponent over several rounds, not kill or maim the other guy.  Sport karate typically transforms into an athletic demonstration of speed hitting alone.  Both lack the tactical effectiveness & power output to end a fight quickly & decisively.
|
The goal of the traditional karate curriculum, when it comes to application, is not to make me a better striker, it's to make be a better finisher....
|
People question my success in competitive sparring.  Cause I don't fool around.  It's in & done.  Of course this doesn't work against superior opponents.  So that's why I concentrate on foundation, not sparring.
|
Can your approach of ranging help or can free sparring help?  Sure.  The traditional karate foundation is what counts under traditional karate principles, not free sparring.  Interestingly enough, was just reading here @ MT about the history of TSD (KSD).  TSD stresses kata & the traditional karate foundation.  So I'm in line with that philosophy....
|
The story I told about the intimidating kickboxer senior-belt @ our school.  Fought me with expectation that I would do just what you said, range in & out.  Defeated him by 1st standing still on his first 'sortie,' then moving in upon his moving in for the 'KO.'  I rarely, and I mean rarely back up....  I do what's taught in Ippon Kumite...


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out....


|
As you know, I like to apply karate to MMA.  Take a look at Luke Rockhold's striking domination of Michael Bisping.  You will see both fighters ranging way in & out just as you say.  However, you will see, in that YT highlight vid, how chancy a strategy this is, especially for Bisping.
|
Rockhold is very talented, IMO.  Machida tends to be a ranger  in & out.  Rockhold overcame Bispings' ranging in & out.  BIG QUESTION FOR THE UPCOMING MACHIDA / ROCKHOLD BOUT:  Is Machida's range / distancing strategy going to stand up to Rockhold? I feel Machida's at real risk here....


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.



Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Reading about the Tang Soo Do style, I think that over all, this style is heading in the right direction for giving that traditional karate foundation.  If you want the more athletic, sport approach, the TKD korean style seems to follow closer to the Shotokan point fighting kumite as it later evolved.  But of course these are generalizations.
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TSD is more kata-centered, TKD is more kumite-centered.


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?



Yeah. Things like Inconveniently bringing your hand back after you punch.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> Did you mean "options" being constantly cut off"?


|
This sparked my recollection of one of Rockhold's stated tactics to defeat Machida.  "Cutting off the cage."  I've heard this strategy often e-nounced by MMA coaches.  In traditional karate, you try to cut me off, I cut you down.  That's the overall strategic karate answer.... to Luke Rockhold, et. al.


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> The working objective of the traditional karateka, in this case me, I control the distance all the time.



I think the quote function messed up in your post# 38. The quotes attributed to Steve were mine.

IMO, _You_ can't control distance all the time. If you and I were doing stand up and I tagged you followed by a good pump fake THEN I moved back instead of forward, I would have controlled the distance by increasing it.


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is dealing with your opinions being constantly cut off. You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.



Drop Bear, I don't understand what you mean by options being constantly cut off. In striking, my options are never cut off, not to mention "constantly"
We're you referring to grappling?


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> Drop Bear, I don't understand what you mean by options being constantly cut off. In striking, my options are never cut off, not to mention "constantly"
> We're you referring to grappling?



So you are always in a position to hit the other guy?


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you are always in a position to hit the other guy?



When within distance, yes. If it's a real fight and I'm not in distance - I'm closing and will be within distance in a heartbeat. 

If it's sparring, unless I'm coasting (like with a student) I'll either close in a heartbeat or, if he's an aggressive striker, intercept.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You don't get the space and time to do technique. So you need better technique to be successful.


Lately, this is the most important strategy that I like to use. If I don't give my opponent the space and time to generate a full power and full speed punch, it will be to my advantage. This is why I like my "rhino guard' that I put both of my fists right in front of my opponent's nose. If my opponent tries to punch around it, his face will be right open for me. It's a very "simple" strategy.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> I think the quote function messed up in your post# 38. The quotes attributed to Steve were mine.


Sorry....



Buka said:


> IMO, _You_ can't control distance all the time. If you and I were doing stand up and I tagged you followed by a good pump fake THEN I moved back instead of forward, I would have controlled the distance by increasing it.


|
I move as you move.  Not in reaction to how you move. These mental kumite skills are spelled out in the Shotokan karate syllabus.
|
For instance looking @ your example.  You tag me--Maybe not.  I am very hard to hit.  Then you 'pump fake.'  If you read my short-story on the aggressive kickboxer, I do not fall for feints.  You have to actually engage the strike for contact before I will move.  This is another mental quality mentioned in the Shotokan karate syllabus and in the "State of Mind" T, elsewhere.  Then you move back.
|
So what?  According to my relpy, you never hit me.  So for martial purposes, here self defense, I controlled the distance.  Furthermore, if you are close enough to 'tag' me, then you are also close enough for me to counter.  Again, this kumite principle is specifically covered in the Shotokan karate syllabus....  An if I am able to counter, then the probability is I will embark to continue my attack until victorious.  This principle is demonstrated in the beginner level Taikyoku kata--that everyone says are impractical for actual fighting with the simpleton down block, etc.  That latter view is too simplistic, IMO.
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The ippon kumite videos I've put up, and which have been rounded criticized by some @ MT, also demonstrate the style of response I use, and the internal mental principles I've spoken about.  Maybe that's why karate Master's teach 1-steps.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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So to summarize.  So you have moved all around, it's true you have changed the distance, the greater truth is you haven't controlled anything.... I'm still standing & the probability is that I blocked your first tag, in the least.
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In terms of the vast majority of competitive TMA or MMA sparring, you are entirely correct.  The Rockhold vs. Bisping YT vid I spoke of makes an excellent confirmation of your position.  I am NOT a sport karate fighter.....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> When within distance, yes. If it's a real fight and I'm not in distance - I'm closing and will be within distance in a heartbeat.
> 
> If it's sparring, unless I'm coasting (like with a student) I'll either close in a heartbeat or, if he's an aggressive striker, intercept.


|
In the outward form context, we are saying sort of the same thing.  One difference is that I'm not counting so on quick mobility such as you are.  I'm counting more on being mentally-set to move.
|
Since you are talking about closing the distance, it's going to take you 1-2 heart-beats while I only need 1/2 heart-beat to take action against your advance.


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## Hyoho (Mar 27, 2015)

@Shoto noob I'm fully aware of ippon kumite having taken part in competition some 50 years ago. Also breaking for exibition but targets dont hit you back. But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down. People dont go down so easy. Ippon matches tests the skills in fighters to see if not only you can achieve good waza (technique) but tests the skills of people in fighting spirit and stamina. None of these arts if you can call them that are superior. It's all down to the person who does it.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Although my training & fighting style are not Shotokan, moonhill99 posted "Great Shotokan Karate" YT vid over @ the "Some Kung Fu and Karate Do Not Do Well Fighting a Boxer" T.  The thesis of this T is probably true 50% of the time AT LEAST.  Simply because the traditional karate base IS HARDER TO DO, takes much longer to forge than good, rudimentary boxing....
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The date of moonhill99's post was March 5, 2015.... for the interested.  the MT mentors are familiar of course....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> @Shoto noob I'm fully aware of ippon kumite having taken part in competition some 50 years ago. Also breaking for exibition but targets dont hit you back.


|
On the contrary, I'll knock out your teeth just like I break boards....  People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back.  They go to the hospital then to dental surgery....  this is the WHOLE end point of IPPON KUMITE.
|


Hyoho said:


> But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down.


|
The applied goal of traditional karate is to quickly & efficiently disable your opponent.  That's what the curriculum provides.  We're now back to is it the style or the stylist that makes this happen?  Edit: or school.  _*Such as Matt Bryers Combat JuiJutsu.....*_
|


Hyoho said:


> People dont go down so easy.


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_"On people don't go down so easy,"_ that's again addressed in the traditional karate curriculum.  It's in the design of 1-steps, kata, and traditional juyi kumite....
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First of all in MMA, they are not deliberately trying to put their opponent in the hospital.  There is a lot of sportsmanship in holding back, lest you kill or maim your opponent.  There was just an interview by a long-time MMA / UFC fighter that said he now thought he sparred too much and it forced him out with brain damage....  So a deliberately lethal force blow could do the same from any MMA or TMA style.  Machida, if he gets it right, KO's opponents with kicks.  Much of the other time, take the Randy Couture bout, Machida's dancing around essentially scoring contact points.  Listen to Couture, he'll tell you that this is exactly what his experience was in the Machida fight....
|


Hyoho said:


> Ippon matches tests the skills in fighters to see if not only you can achieve good waza (technique) but tests the skills of people in fighting spirit and stamina. None of these arts if you can call them that are superior. It's all down to the person who does it.


As to your final statements, traditional karate is an individual endevor just as you say.  Traditional karate is also one general MA style to get you there....  There's others.  But the overall question remains,   is how do you access the full potential of that training to get the maximum benefit?


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## Drose427 (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Your analysis of the trading ranges and give and take aspect of sports fighting is unfortunately a common error of sport martial art criticism. The reality of dealing with a resisting and equally matched opponent is that you must range in and out. In an uneven matched fight you move in throw a combination and ko the guy, but when you're dealing with skill it's not so easy. Believe me if a boxer could just enter and end the fight quickly it would happen and sometimes it does. The problem with an enter and go all out strategy is that if you fail to incapacitate your opponent you may be too tired to continue, it's something to be cautious of in the street too.



To add to this,

One thing I've noticed at traditional tournaments is that the guy who attacks  till the ref breaks it up or says to stop, tends to beat the "in and Out" guy.

I've one matches because I went nonstop till the ref stopped it, and my opponent wasnt as used to that as  "in and out" trading.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> But do you really think you can put people down in one blow? As an example UFC has "experts" from all fields that need to beat the crap out of each other until one goes down. People dont go down so easy.


|
Please see my TSD demo vid @ Post #24.
|
Also, I think there's some confusion in terms between my use of Ippon Kumite = 1-step sparring, //and// your reference to ippon kumite as the winner to score 1st full point in jiyu kumite.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> To add to this,
> 
> One thing I've noticed at traditional tournaments is that the guy who attacks  till the ref breaks it up or says to stop, tends to beat the "in and Out" guy.
> 
> I've one matches because I went nonstop till the ref stopped it, and my opponent wasnt as used to that as  "in and out" trading.


|
Absolutely.  This thing of single point strike & out is completely the narrowest interpretation of traditional karate you could have.  THE LATTER IS COMPLETELY WRONG LOOKING @ THE CURRICULUM FOR SHOTOKAN.  As I've said, the better Shotokan kumite fighters competition fight as you do....


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> On the contrary, I'll knock out your teeth just like I break boards....  People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back.  They go to the hospital then to dental surgery....  this is the WHOLE end point of IPPON KUMITE.
> |
> 
> ...



I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.

Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training. And no chance when it comes to mma.  Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and  training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.
My opinion, only.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.


|
You have a strong opinion.  So do I....



VT_Vectis said:


> Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training.


|
I don't do full contact.  That is NOT the traditional karate model.  The MMA fighter I just mentioned is Jamie Varner.... who trained just like you talk about and now realizes it WAS A BIG, IRREVERSIBLE MISTAKE.  KEY WORD = IRREVERSIBLE....


VT_Vectis said:


> And no chance when it comes to mma.


Please see my last statement....


VT_Vectis said:


> Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and  training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.My opinion, only.


|
The skills I've developed are spoken to in the "Mental State of Mind" T.  If you don't believe in them, then don't....
|
The limitations of Traditional karate training are there, including that it does not teach to be a reality-based self defense expert or professional bodyguard.  This has been addressed clearly in a number of forums, including MT.
|
What TMA does give you, if trained true to standards, is the foundational ability for someone like me to meet someone of your philosophy and prevail.  Whatever happens can only be known when it happens.  Violence, while potentially deadly, has no mind.
|
Just my opinion....
|
BTW: I have gone on record supporting the MMA experience as valid reality-testing for traditional karateka.  Please follow my full opinions....
BTW: I have experienced sparring partners losing their temper, causing injury to me including broken bones.  After that happened once, I've always prevailed in FINISHING THE FIGHT IN ALL THOSE CASES....  Not just my opinion....


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> For instance looking @ your example.  You tag me--Maybe not.  I am very hard to hit.



My friend, everybody gets hit. That's why they call it a fight.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 27, 2015)

Buka said:


> My friend, everybody gets hit. That's why they call it a fight.


|
I do get hit.  Just not very often.  I'm hard to hit.  I have traditional karate BLOCKING skills that others say are only strikes.  NO, I can block.  Plus other stuffffff.
|
Now if I could just spell JiuJutsu....
|
P.S. Plus you'll probably get countered within the instant.  Shotokan karate has a set of mental kumite concepts for this in it's syllabus.  Which does NOT include the modern Kyo practice of just wading & leaning into opponent with alternating hands, feet, etc....  There's nothing mental in that....


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> You have a strong opinion.  So do I....
> 
> 
> ...



Ok, if you view your training that way it's all good but I think you should look into Geoff Thompson and his reason for changing the way he trained and viewed his Karate, if you've not done so before. 

However, if you think your training gives you an advantage without preparing you to get punched in the face you really are in for a shock. 

Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 28, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> Ok, if you view your training that way it's all good but I think you should look into Geoff Thompson and his reason for changing the way he trained and viewed his Karate, if you've not done so before


|
I've looked at him some time ago, understand him to be very reputable & reality-based orientation.  I'm more foundational.



VT_Vectis said:


> However, if you think your training gives you an advantage without preparing you to get punched in the face you really are in for a shock.


|
NO, it might be you are in for a shock.....



VT_Vectis said:


> Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.


|
Mind beats no mind.... that's essence of shaolin kung fu(s)....  i'd NEVER try to beat a bona-fide Shaolin fighting monk....  'cause I wouldn't be shocked when defeat so overwhelmingly came....
|
Paper tigers to keyboard warriors signing out.....


VT_Vectis said:


> Violence may not have a mind but it's got two fists, two feet, a head-butt, and little respect for your paper tigers.


|
P.S. Give Jamie Varner a ring.  You'll cheer him up with the impossible....  I'm sure his family will appreciate your empty platitudes even more....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 28, 2015)

Been meaning to head over to the "conversation is sparring" T, now overdue....


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## Hyoho (Mar 28, 2015)

How can ippon mean "one step"? Ippon means one. One step is 'Ipo'. I guess its just confusion from arts in other countries that misuse Japanese language and latch on to Japanese grading sytems wearing lots of badges and stripy uniforms.


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## Tez3 (Mar 28, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> I realise this thread is about sparring but I think a little reality check is needed here. I don't mean for this to be a personal attack on anyone or their style, so I hope it doesn't come across that way.
> 
> Although I respect your love and belief in your art , mate, I think if you go out on a Friday night and try that with most any testosterone fuelled douche you'll be the one heading to the doctors. Let alone against those used to full contact, alive training. And no chance when it comes to mma.  Life isn't like the Kwoon/dojo and  training needs to reflect that or acknowledge the realities of actual violence, whether sport or defending against an aggressor.
> My opinion, only.



I agree with you.



ShotoNoob said:


> People with their teeth knocked out don't hit back




Oh they certainly do. I've seen it a few times, I've had my own tooth knocked out and carried on sparring  it wasn't a fight even. I'm not the toughest person going but it didn't hurt at the time, didn't realise it was out.

There's sparring, there's fighting, there's brawling and there's street violence ( not 'fighting') all of which are different. What you think works in sparring and fighting won't necessarily work if you are caught up in street violence.


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## VT_Vectis (Mar 28, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I've looked at him some time ago, understand him to be very reputable & reality-based orientation.  I'm more foundational.
> 
> 
> ...



Oh I'm shocked, alright ha.

What's impossible in what I've written? What does Jamie Varner have to do with it? 

It's fully documented that  anyone engaged in contact sports is at risk of brain damage via repeated impacts over time. Tennis players get elbow trouble, so what? Hazard of the game.

 A few years ago they released a study that speculated on the damage sustained by players repeatedly heading the ball during football games (soccer to all you non Brits). But that is just as irrelevant as your comment. 

Should I stop training semi/full contact on the off chance I get brain damage, and leave myself unready for an encounter where someone is going to want to ,at least, put my lights out if not mortally wound me? Or worse?

Bearing in mind that most people unused to being hit have an inability to react after the first blow received...

 Will your no-mind intercept a "sucker punch" or a blow from behind? Maybe some times you will but what about the others?

I train in Ving Tsun and we train sensitivity to allow ourselves to react without thinking but I don't rely on being able to parry/intercept all that comes; I need to know I can take a few hits and be able to function and, hopefully , conquer/subdue the assailant.  

But hey, that's my view, you have yours and "never the twain shall meet". 
Good luck to you in your MA journey, mate.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 28, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> A few years ago they released a study that speculated on the damage sustained by players repeatedly heading the ball during football games (soccer to all you non Brits). But that is just as irrelevant as your comment.


|
Quite the contrary.... it's PRECISELY WHAT'S RELEVANT TO A MENTAL DISCIPLINE.



VT_Vectis said:


> Should I stop training semi/full contact on the off chance I get brain damage, and leave myself unready for an encounter where someone is going to want to ,at least, put my lights out if not mortally wound me? Or worse?


|
The tradeoffs inherent in your approach, the decision is entirely up to you......



VT_Vectis said:


> Bearing in mind that most people unused to being hit have an inability to react after the first blow received...]


|
Yes that's right.  But only because most martial art practitioners fail to engage the teachings of the historic Masters that traditional martial arts is a mental endeavor over a physical one.  We have T's here @ MT speaking directly to this issue....
|
I've also acknowledged that reality training should be embraced by traditional martial artists, in the manner that is non-injurious in their perspective.  Risk of permanent, then debilitating injury is a critical consideration....



VT_Vectis said:


> Will your no-mind intercept a "sucker punch" or a blow from behind? Maybe some times you will but what about the others?


|
The fault in your statement is that you're first finding fault.  Common among roughneck fighters....  If I get a concussion from a sucker punch, you can get a concussion from a sucker punch.  You intimate that experiencing repeated blows make you more resistive.  This is contrary to medical evidence that same is cumulative.  This is also made clear by Master's in the Asian arts.... recognizing this long ago from their intensive study of human function.



VT_Vectis said:


> I train in Ving Tsun and we train sensitivity to allow ourselves _*to react without thinking*_


|
Well Ving Tsun is much more sophisticated a TMA style than the traditional karate I practice, IMO. Yet contrary to your statement, for Ving Tsun to be Ving Tsun that the Chinese Masters created, the mental discipline required, that is the thinking demanded is on a higher level than my traditional karate requires.


VT_Vectis said:


> _*but I don't rely on being able to parry/intercept all that comes;*_ I need to know I can take a few hits and be able to function and, hopefully , conquer/subdue the assailant.


|
As i've said I'm all in favor of reality testing.  We get that anyway at our school, same with other schools because your sparring partner makes an unintended mistake, OR loses their cool, gets angry and tries to beat you up....  happens...
|
And you are wise to be prepared to take hits.  Traditional karate also trains for this, just not like you intimate.  The real wisdom in your pragmatic training to take hits, however, stems from the weakness in your foundation...._*to react without thinking*.  The traditional karateka strives to outhink the opponent's reactions, which you state you can't do.....  _THAT'S IT....


VT_Vectis said:


> But hey, that's my view, you have yours and "never the twain shall meet".
> Good luck to you in your MA journey, mate.


|
And your view is correct by the principles you train.  Your approach is a valid way to train & prepare for actual fighting.  Carry on....


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