# FACT VS FICTION



## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation. 

Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate." 

This is an absurdity when in actuality if we refer to scholarly academic determinations there is no basis for making the illegitimate or illegitimate argument status. This is because  the term ninjutsu is interchangeable with the English term Spy-craft ot Tradecraft -- as it is NOT A MARTIAL ART. 

The terminology Ninjutsu is a turn of the 20th century invention that reflects an operating philosophy with traceable roots that only go back as far as the forensic evidence-- e.g. Japanese scrolls, like the Bansenshukai, etc. If you are hearing otherwise someone is either intentionally or inadvertently misleading you.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2018)

I will be the first to admit I know very little about Ninjutsu but I think popular modern media is partly responsible for Ninjutsu's reputation as a "phony" Martial Art. Anyone who is familiar with Japanese Manga or Anime has probably heard of the Naruto series, one of the biggest franchises of that genre. The characters in Naruto are all Ninja who use a combination of Taijutsu (basic hand-to-hand combat), Genjutsu (mind tricks and illusions) and Ninjutsu, which they treat as effectively being magic. You can do pretty much anything in the Naruto universe using Ninjutsu, even things that are about as far away from the Ninja stereotype as you can get. Summon a giant stone golem to attack your foe? Ninjutsu. Throw a ball of fire at someone? Ninjutsu. Create a lightning storm to make you the fastest person in the world? Ninjutsu. When you elevate a term to such a state and then take that term outside the fantasy universe, it's no wonder that people don't take the term seriously and consider it to be fake.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

Midnight, your statement is a very well stated observable truth.  What amazes me is how the fantasy role playing carries over into commercial martial arts world. Where reality and fiction are viewed and peddled as one in the same: e.g. mysticism being sold through home study courses and seminars, etc. Throwing Chi balls and people falling -- achieved by way of mass hypnosis.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation.
> 
> Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate."
> 
> ...


So this question may be going against one of the forum rules, and if so I'm sure another forum member will inform me.

You mentioned that there are a lot of frank dux impersonators on threads...Do you have any evidence that you are actually Frank Dux and not one of those impersonators?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So this question may be going against one of the forum rules, and if so I'm sure another forum member will inform me.
> 
> You mentioned that there are a lot of frank dux impersonators on threads...Do you have any evidence that you are actually Frank Dux and not one of those impersonators?



What works for you? How can I prove this now? Here?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

*FOR DISCUSSION: Agree or Disagree? MY OPINION:*

*FICTION:  Super Secret Ancient Knowledge of Awesomeness IS BEST*

The older and more pure a martial art is, the better. The fewer people who have studied it, the better. The less well known it is, the better. And all modern martial arts are just “watered down” versions of these ancient secrets.

*FACT*: Go ask a COMBAT VETERAN if the oldest “martial” fighting systems are the most effective. That noise you here is their laughter. 

What was that? You can’t hear it over the roar of a cruise missile or the_whump-whump-whump_ of bullets flying by your head or what about how to cover and conceal yourself using your stealth against an Apache attack helicopter? 

Yeah, me either. But trust me, it’s there.


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## CB Jones (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> What works for you? How can I prove this now? Here?



Upload a picture of you holding a handwritten sign that says martial talk in your left hand and with your right hand on your chest.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

_"will the real slim shady please stand up ...please stand up"


_


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 19, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Upload a picture of you holding a handwritten sign that says martial talk in your left hand and with your right hand on your chest.


This may be a joke, but that would actually work. Or with the date on it. I' not sure if requesting that is a violation of the rules though.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> *FOR DISCUSSION: Agree or Disagree? MY OPINION:*
> 
> *FICTION:  Super Secret Ancient Knowledge of Awesomeness IS BEST*
> 
> ...



Well now we are getting into the sticky territory of whether Martial Arts should evolve or stay "pure", which is a topic that has occurred on this forum many times with no decisive conclusion. What I will say is that our perception of what is possible is constantly changing. In the words of Arthur C Clarke "magic is just science that we don't understand yet". When the mechanics of levers and pulleys were discovered I'm sure a lot of people thought it was magic, when in fact there is a perfectly good scientific explanation that a lot of people understand today. 

Fighting has had similar mysticism surrounding it. Being able to use a large person's size and strength against them has been present in Martial Arts for centuries, but it's only recently that we fully understand how it happens thanks to advances in physics and biomechanics. Magic and mysticism turns into science.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

im sorry Frank but you know what,  i dont know who you are. honestly i dont care.  your post about the slander of your name is better off being taken up one on one with the person in question or as a reply to a specific comment not a public post in a general forum.  
respect from many here on MT is gained by your contribution to the forums and the quality of your posts.  the fact that your name may be recognizable by some doesnt add weight to the quality of your opinions.  i hope you understand that coming on the boards and announcing your arrival doesnt really put you in a good light.  

if you want to contribute to some conversations, welcome to MT.


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## CB Jones (Jan 19, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> This may be a joke, but that would actually work. Or with the date on it. I' not sure if requesting that is a violation of the rules though.



I didn’t request it....just answered his question


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> im sorry Frank but you know what,  i dont know who you are. honestly i dont care.  your post about the slander of your name is better off being taken up one on one with the person in question or as a reply to a specific comment not a public post in a general forum.
> respect from many here on MT is gained by your contribution to the forums and the quality of your posts.  the fact that your name may be recognizable by some doesnt add weight to the quality of your opinions.  i hope you understand that coming on the boards and announcing your arrival doesnt really put you in a good light.
> 
> if you want to contribute to some conversations, welcome to MT.



This is what I was thinking.  There are a lot of Frank Dux impersonators...okay, but who is Frank Dux in the first place?


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## CB Jones (Jan 19, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Frank but you know what, i dont know who you are. honestly i dont care. your post about the slander of your name is better off being taken up one on one with the person in question or as a reply to a specific comment not a public post in a general forum.



What?  You never seen Bloodsport?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux is a choreographer with a sketchy reputation. You can read threads about him and his system in the "Horror Stories" and "Great Debate" sub-forums. I haven't personally checked, but I'm sure there will be a thread or two about him on Bullshido as well.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 19, 2018)

I am Negan.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

i am Negan


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 19, 2018)

I am Negan.


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## Danny T (Jan 19, 2018)

Negan? Who is Negan and how does Negan factor in this discussion?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2018)

I have no idea who Negan is but this is me....notice the Current "New" word in the bottom left corner as proof






Some say I bear a striking resemblance to Donnie Yen... which may are surprised by....since, by ancestry, I am mostly German


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

I am Negan.

Actually I have no idea who Negan is either, I just wanted to be part of the popular crowd.


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2018)

If you truly are @Frank Dux and you’re about separating fact from fiction...

How did you possibly have 56 consecutive ko’s in a single tournament?

That would have to be one huge tournament.  Seems impossible, but I’m sure there’s an explanation.  Respectfully asking, can you elaborate?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

_*First off this thread is called Fact vs Fiction not Frank Dux vs. Gossip*_

*The first discussion point is now seemingly being overshadowed by the gossipy talk of haters who expect me to be dragged into defending a reputation not in need of defending. * 

If you find it necessary to prove I am who I say I am I suggest you do likewise, first. Post a photo of yourself holding your passport or valid license, ID card… not hide behind an avatar and made up name to possibly in your anonymity and unaccountability challenge my veracity. Lets be on equal footing.

I will, however, as matter of courtesy address one issue raised so we may move on and stay on topic. Please excuse its necessary lengthiness.

Out of sincere respect with regard to how is it possible to attain the 56 KO record in a single tournament that is being raised -- well it's rather obvious to me that question betrays a level of ignorance and place of origination. 

It says about the person asking it they apparently are not familiar with the traditional practice of REAL Kumite. 

Case in point, Mas Oyama fought over 100 full contact tournament matches in a single day.  Oyama did this 3 times in his lifetime but that goes unchallenged here… should we ask, why?

The logical conclusion we may arrive at is based on the observable truth that gossip, speculation and hearsay is not tolerated -- not part of the Traditional Karate World that Mas Oyama was a part of.  A culture where respect for self and others is taught and is viewed paramount -- unmistakable ASIAN Martial Art Defining Qualities that is in the ninja culture only seemingly given lip service to by self professed traditional Ninja's or their enthusiasts. 

A world where it's self professed Supreme Grandmasters exemplify lack of character when they willfully mischaracterized from their earliest beginnings that Ninjutsu was an elite exclusive Japanese ancient martial art _when it is definitely not. _

And with its rabid commercialization, since the 1980's, visibly engage in personally attacking and obfuscating anyone or argument that dares present a threat to the false dogma, elite status -- viewed competition in their marketplace. 

Persons, like myself,  not being permitted to compete fairly. 

Blackbelt magazine's journalist Gordon Richuisa going on the record stating that I myself by way of contract between Stephan Hayes and Rainbow Publications was not allowed to be featured in any of their prominent martial art trade magazines. Proof of how they fraudulently presented themselves to be the ethical impartial leading trade journals they misled the public by. That was once true when they were first run as a newsletter, written by real martial artists in place of fake news journalists or PR professionals whose only concern was $$$ -- subscription and ad dollars. 

Don't believe me.  Do an image search of Blackbelt magazine covers beginning from the 1960's to the 1980's and ask yourself how is it that not a single black person made the cover as a featured story except as a throw dummy. Muhammed Ali was a martial artist trained under Jhoon Rhee and because of its lack of impartiality he too was excluded.

During this time period so many excelled in Martial Arts like the man who fought and beat them all, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, etc. -- Victor Moore -- who acknowledged in documentaries and news articles how we fought twice.  Kinda kills the next pop culture fiction I can't name my competitors, doesn't it?   ENOUGH SAID.

_So I put it to you all again is it fact or fiction that purity is really necessary in calling oneself a martial artist or advance oneself as one?  

I say NO WAY as purity has more to do with being part of a historical society or club and is not part of real warfare that is always evolving -- martial art is after all the term for "ART of MILITARY"; certainly not exclusive to ANCIENT ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS._


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 19, 2018)

I'm sorry, but you must understand that it is rather doubtful that Frank Dux would have the time to, or even care to, deal with this sort of thing in a web forum.

So I do not think you should be at all surprised, if in fact you are Frank Dux, based on previous impersonators, if the general consensus here is that you may, or may not be Frank Dux and the inclination of most will be to lean towards you are not.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jan 19, 2018)

are you sure your frank dux hmmmm or pretending to be frank dux i have frank as a friend in Facebook if you dont know my real name your not frank dux


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## MA_Student (Jan 19, 2018)

Okayyy...so been off this forum for a while and come back to this...


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## Buka (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation.
> 
> Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate."
> 
> ...


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> First off the thread is called Fact vs Fiction.
> 
> *The first discussion point is now seemingly being overshadowed by the gossipy talk of haters who expect me to defend a reputation not in need of defending.  *
> 
> ...



It might do you good to look at this from other people's perspective. On this forum there are a lot of people who have been practicing the Martial Arts for a long time, and are well connected as a result of it. Then along you come as a complete nobody telling us you are someone of importance and automatically expect us to show you utmost respect. Sorry but that's not the way it works here. 

Imagine if you were training in your dojo and I suddenly walked in and told you I was a Grandmaster in some ancient Japanese Martial Art, and immediately expect you to bow in respect to me, would you do it? I'd be willing to guess you wouldn't. 

Here's the sad thing about all this. You didn't need to talk about your real identity at all. If all you wanted to do was discuss the validity of ninjutsu then you could have just talked about that. But instead you made the focus of your post about your identity and are then surprised that people ask for proof. 

As other people have said, we don't care who you are and aren't going to hang on your every word just because you think you are somebody in the Martial Arts world.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> View attachment 21215



Very kewl pic… love it….


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> are you sure your frank dux hmmmm or pretending to be frank dux i have frank as a friend in Facebook if you dont know my real name your not frank dux



I have the last time I checked 47 impersonators on Facebook.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> _*First off this thread is called Fact vs Fiction not Frank Dux vs. Gossip*_
> 
> *The first discussion point is now seemingly being overshadowed by the gossipy talk of haters who expect me to be dragged into defending a reputation not in need of defending. *
> 
> ...



Why do I have to prove I am?  I am specifically on here as a nobody.  I don't have to prove that I'm nobody.  You're on here claiming to be someone.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> It might do you good to look at this from other people's perspective. On this forum there are a lot of people who have been practicing the Martial Arts for a long time, and are well connected as a result of it. Then along you come as a complete nobody telling us you are someone of importance and automatically expect us to show you utmost respect. Sorry but that's not the way it works here.
> 
> Imagine if you were training in your dojo and I suddenly walked in and told you I was a Grandmaster in some ancient Japanese Martial Art, and immediately expect you to bow in respect to me, would you do it? I'd be willing to guess you wouldn't.
> 
> ...



First off if we want to compare this thread to entering a dojo then you walked into mine. You did it by being condescending to assert dominance over me. If you can't or are unwilling to discuss the tropic but rather choose to obfuscate its validity in order to I suspect protect your hidden agenda, you need not be present since you fail to join the real discussion. My personal curiosity is if anyone out there in the Martail Talk world is willing to discuss the topic myth intelligently rather than attempt to play schoolmaster when they are obviously a student in need of a real education.


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> First off the thread is called Fact vs Fiction.
> 
> *The first discussion point is now seemingly being overshadowed by the gossipy talk of haters who expect me to defend a reputation not in need of defending.  *
> 
> ...



There’s absolutely no ignorance in my asking how you could have 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament.  Citing Oyama’s 100 man kumite is showing ignorance on your part.  Allow me to elaborate...

The 100 man kumite is NOT a tournament.  It is a single karateka fighting 100 consecutive opponents.  The only way to advance in the 100 man kumite is to beat or draw each opponent.  It is not a tournament, as there’s no winners nor losers.  The person either completes it or it stops.

A tournament is where multiple competitors face off.  The last one standing WINS.  Any one of the competitors can win.  If the person attempting the 100 man kumite doesn’t win or tie against an opponent, it is over.  No one else keeps going.

Oyama faced 100 karateka each day for 3 consecutive days.  No one else was trying this at the same time.  If he lost a round, someone wouldn’t have stood in and finished where he left off and been declared the winner.

Being a former Kyokushin offshoot student, I know exactly what the 100 man kumite is and is not.  I myself had to complete a 25 man kumite for my shodan promotion.  Claiming I had 25 consecutive KOs in a tournament because I completed the 25 man kumite would be absurd.  Why?  Because IT’S NOT A TOURNAMENT.*

*I used bold there because I can’t italicize.

If you’re saying you did a 56 man kumite, as in Kyokushin’s 100 man kumite (or however many), I wouldn’t have a question.  Saying 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament is quite different.  That means there had to be 56 rounds in a single elimination tournament, ending with 2 fighters in the finals who’ve beaten everyone they faced.  Someone somewhere did the math behind a 56 round single elimination tournament.  The number of competitors needed for a tournament that large was in the millions.  The only way to have less people in a tournament where the winner would have to compete 56 times in a single tournament is a round robin tournament.  But the numbers would still be astronomical.

I was genuinely asking how you could have 56 KOs in a single tournament in a respectful way.  Can you please explain it respectfully?  A tournament and a 100 man or even more kumite are completely different things.  No one attacked Oyama’s claim because his claim makes sense.  Anyone who knows how the 100 man kumite actually works knows it’s possible.  Anyone who knows how a tournament works knows 56 rounds in a tournament is logistically near impossible.

I’m just respectfully asking how the tournament you claim was set up because I don’t know.  I know how 100 +/- man kumites are set up.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> First off if we want to compare this thread to entering a dojo then you walked into mine. You did it by being condescending to assert dominance over me. If you can't or are unwilling to discuss the tropic but rather choose to obfuscate its validity in order to I suspect protect your hidden agenda, you need not be present since you fail to join the real discussion. My personal curiosity is if anyone out there in the Martail Talk world is willing to discuss the topic myth intelligently rather than attempt to play schoolmaster when they are obviously a student in need of a real education.



This thread exists within the community of Martial Talk.  You are an unknown entity here.  Even if people have heard of who you're claiming to be (which a lot of us haven't), we don't know for sure who you are.

What you have done is come on and say you are someone famous, rant about people pretending to be you, and then...honestly I don't know what the rest of your thread was about.  I got hung up on how arrogant you were and I think everyone else did, too.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> I am specifically on here as a nobody



except the very first thing your wrote was .....
_"I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation. 

Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate." 
_
seems to me the reason you are here is to talk about some guy named Frank Purdue.. i mean Dux.
if you want to talk about ninjustsu then stick the the topic.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> First off if we want to compare this thread to entering a dojo then you walked into mine. You did it by being condescending to assert dominance over me. If you can't or are unwilling to discuss the tropic but rather choose to obfuscate its validity in order to I suspect protect your hidden agenda, you need not be present since you fail to join the real discussion. My personal curiosity is if anyone out there in the Martail Talk world is willing to discuss the topic myth intelligently rather than attempt to play schoolmaster when they are obviously a student in need of a real education.



First of all, I suggest you take off the tin foil hat you are wearing and actually read what other people have written. There is no conspiracy against you, no "hidden agenda" so please take that out of your mind, because right now I am losing my patience. I do not take kindly to you accusing me of being unwilling to discuss your topic when I was the first person to reply to your thread and I chose to ignore your rant about impersonators and stuck to the topic you wanted to discuss. Please bare that in mind when you next begin typing. Claiming that we are "students in need of a real education" from you is not going to help your case either. As I said before, there are many people on this forum who have spent decades practising the Martial Arts, and if you want them to listen to you and take you seriously, I would suggest not speaking to them in such a manner. You talk about being condescending and trying to assert dominance, when that is exactly what you have just done in your post. 

I have a question for you. What do impersonators and your true identity have to do with Myths surrounding the Martial Arts? You could have easily just asked your question and left out the rant about impersonators and your real identity and I'm sure everyone would have gone along with it and we would have had a very nice conversation. Now though you have succeeded on pissing off quite a few of us to the point where we don't even want to speak to you. Was that what you wanted?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> Why do I have to prove I am?  I am specifically on here as a nobody.  I don't have to prove that I'm nobody.  You're on here claiming to be someone.



No Im here not hiding like some coward behind an avatar using an alias. I make myself accountable by doing so whereas you skirt the issue and perhaps all that betrays your level of understanding with regards to this topic and others so that may role play you speak with an authoritarian voice when you should be asking questions or sharing what you believe to be true. Its shameful you feel inclined to remain a nobody as everyone has real value and everyone's voice, thoughts and good deeds has value for others who honor the truth.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> No Im here not hiding like some coward behind an avatar using an alias. I make myself accountable by doing so whereas you skirt the issue and perhaps all that betrays your level of understanding with regards to this topic and others so that may role play you speak with an authoritarian voice when you should be asking questions or sharing what you believe to be true. Its shameful you feel inclined to remain a nobody as everyone has real value and everyone's voice, thoughts and good deeds has value for others who honor the truth.



I'm not hiding behind anything.  I just don't have anything to prove by saying who I am.  I'm here to discuss martial arts, not how awesome I think I am.

For the record, my Grandma has at least 3 impersonators on Facebook, so I don't think that's a huge selling point.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> except the very first thing your wrote was .....
> _"I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation.
> 
> Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate."
> ...



Hoshin, you're mixing quotes.  I'm the one who said I was on here as a nobody, not the OP.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> First of all, I suggest you take off the tin foil hat you are wearing and actually read what other people have written. There is no conspiracy against you, no "hidden agenda" so please take that out of your mind, because right now I am losing my patience. I do not take kindly to you accusing me of being unwilling to discuss your topic when I was the first person to reply to your thread and I chose to ignore your rant about impersonators and stuck to the topic you wanted to discuss. Please bare that in mind when you next begin typing. Claiming that we are "students in need of a real education" from you is not going to help your case either. As I said before, there are many people on this forum who have spent decades practising the Martial Arts, and if you want them to listen to you and take you seriously, I would suggest not speaking to them in such a manner. You talk about being condescending and trying to assert dominance, when that is exactly what you have just done in your post.
> 
> I have a question for you. What do impersonators and your true identity have to do with Myths surrounding the Martial Arts? You could have easily just asked your question and left out the rant about impersonators and your real identity and I'm sure everyone would have gone along with it and we would have had a very nice conversation. Now though you have succeeded on pissing off quite a few of us to the point where we don't even want to speak to you. Was that what you wanted?



I detect either a breakdown in communication or what seems to be back peddling on your part.  If you Midnight are being earnest I offer my apologies,. Unintentionally, offending  others is what I expected being a novice when it comes to chats and following forum protocols.

Nonetheless, you appear to me to be condescending in your tone towards me. As I recall I did not mention anything about gossip surrounding myself until the door was being opened to what traditionally follows and I took the liberty of closing that door with my explanation. One that includes addressing the innuendo being circulated all over this forum that has not dealt with me fairly.  Calling attention to the source of it so that all unaware of that reality may proceed without revisiting it and stay on topic.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm not hiding behind anything.  I just don't have anything to prove by saying who I am.  I'm here to discuss martial arts, not how awesome I think I am.
> 
> For the record, my Grandma has at least 3 impersonators on Facebook, so I don't think that's a huge selling point.



If you are here to discuss the topic Skribs than why don't you add to its discussion rather than focus on me?


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> Nonetheless, you appear to me to be condescending in your tone towards me. As I recall I did not mention anything about gossip surrounding myself until the door was being opened to what traditionally follows and I took the liberty of closing that door with my explanation. One that includes addressing the innuendo being circulated all over this forum that has not dealt with me fairly. Calling attention to the source of it so that all unaware of that reality may proceed without revisiting it and stay on topic.





Frank Dux said:


> I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation.



The very first thing you do is claim to be someone and then rant about people who claimed to be you.  The fact it's become the main topic of discussion is not a conspiracy against you.  It's the first thing you said, so it's the thing most people are going to discuss.

Pro tip for forums:  if you want to discuss a topic, leave all other baggage out of the thread.  You don't get to dictate what people talk about.  That's not how discussions work.


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## skribs (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> If you are here to discuss the topic Skribs than why don't you add to its discussion rather than focus on me?



You made the thread about you.

I'm not in this THREAD to discuss martial arts.  I'm here on this FORUM to discuss martial arts.  This thread is about you so I'm talking about you.


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## CB Jones (Jan 19, 2018)

If your Frank Dux....tell me something only Frank Dux would know?


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2018)

@Frank Dux 
You’re claiming to be someone famous.  People are going to be skeptical.  Would you be skeptical if I claimed to be Donald Trump and started discussing politics?

Love it or hate it, a lot of controversy surrounds you.  Is it unreasonable to think people aren’t going to ask you about the controversial stuff?

I asked a question about a claim you made that’s controversial.  I asked it respectfully.  I asked how it was possible to have 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament.  I didn’t accuse you of lying, nor did I knowingly imply it. I simply asked how that’s possible.  You answered by saying it’s an ignorant question, then basically stated why Oyama’s 300 man kumite claim is accepted but your 56 ko claim isn’t.  His is accepted because it’s plausible.  56 rounds in a single tournament doesn’t seem plausible.  Not that it’s impossible, but I just wanted to know how you or anyone else could’ve fought 56 times in a single tournament.  And I’m not making that number up, spreading false rumors, etc.; nor is anyone else because it’s on your own website.

I asked a simple question. I’m pretty sure most would agree it’s a fair question.  I made no accusations.  All I got in essence was I’m ignorant and it’s 56 ko because you say so.  If you want intelligent, rational, and actual meaningful conversation, you shouldn’t attack people who are asking an honest question.  You should answer an honest question with an honest answer.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> I detect either a breakdown in communication or what seems to be back peddling on your part.  If you Midnight are being earnest I offer my apologies,. Unintentionally, offending  others is what I expected being a novice when it comes to chats and following forum protocols.
> 
> Nonetheless, you appear to me to be condescending in your tone towards me. As I recall I did not mention anything about gossip surrounding myself until the door was being opened to what traditionally follows and I took the liberty of closing that door with my explanation. One that includes addressing the innuendo being circulated all over this forum that has not dealt with me fairly.  *Calling attention to the source of it so that all unaware of that reality may proceed without revisiting it and stay on topic.*



The part I've highlighted in Bold is the biggest problem here. There is a theory in psychology called the "Ironic Process Theory" which states that the more you try and suppress a particular thought, the more likely you are to think about it. As you read this, I want you NOT under any circumstances to think about pink elephants. Chances are a pink elephant has popped into your mind, despite me telling you not to think about it. What you did in your opening post was the same thing. You told people not to consider or think about your identity or possible impostors, but in doing so you brought attention to it and that is all that people were able to focus on, rather than your topic about myths. If you hadn't mentioned anything about your identity or impostors chances are nobody else would have brought it up either. 

It's also partly why we use online alias', because it allows us avoid getting bogged down by each other's social status and just focus on what we are talking about. The only time we actually talk about our real lives and identities is when they are relevant to the discussion at hand. Anyway, I suggest you leave this thread and start fresh, with a new topic that just talks about the topic you want to discuss, without any mention of your identity.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 19, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> _*First off this thread is called Fact vs Fiction not Frank Dux vs. Gossip*_
> 
> *The first discussion point is now seemingly being overshadowed by the gossipy talk of haters who expect me to be dragged into defending a reputation not in need of defending. *
> 
> If you find it necessary to prove I am who I say I am I suggest you do likewise, first. Post a photo of yourself holding your passport or valid license, ID card… not hide behind an avatar and made up name to possibly in your anonymity and unaccountability challenge my veracity. Lets be on equal footing.


Just to clarify, this is the first time I've asked someone to prove who they are. That is because you started off with identifying yourself as a public figure, and stated people impersonate you. If someone came on here stating they were president Trump, I would want verification, because then what they state would be viewed as Trump's  (or in the case frank's) words. I have no reason to doubt that skribs is skribs, or that I'm portraying myself as someone else, since I'm not claiming to be anyone of importance.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 19, 2018)

@Frank Dux, also this was your first two paragraphs

"I hope you will excuse my novice beginnings. In the past I watched Frank Dux impersonators go on threads to exploit my celebrity in order to drive traffic to them. Shammus was one such blog thread. Generally, making use of sensationalism., slander, libel and obfuscation others commercially uplift themselves at my hard earned reputation.

Even when reading a thread here about Beginning Ninjutsu, I, am trade libeled by being labeled "illegitimate.""
Pretty sure that's you directly bringing yourself up rather than the topic at hand.


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## MA_Student (Jan 19, 2018)

Hey everyone in the spirit of mr dux I got to admit something to....I'm Bruce lee


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## CB Jones (Jan 19, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Hey everyone in the spirit of mr dux I got to admit something to....I'm Bruce lee



Full Disclosure.....

I’m John Wick

But please don’t call me Baba yaga


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

For those who didn't know, Neagan is a bad guy character on the TV series " The walking dead"  and the line...I am Neagan...is central to the character and the surrounding plot.


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## Martial D (Jan 19, 2018)

>>Sure I'm willing to prove it's me, just tell me how.

>>I refuse to offer any proof unless the person that asks doxes themselves first.

...ok then.


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## JR 137 (Jan 19, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Hey everyone in the spirit of mr dux I got to admit something to....I'm Bruce lee


Did you play football at Fordham University?  If so I know you.

Seriously, one of the football players I took care of at Fordham was named Bruce Lee.  Unfortunately, he wasn’t the “Bruce Lee” of football.  He was pretty average.  Nice guy though.  And he had the most badass name.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 19, 2018)

im the whistler....
the punch line comes in at 1:25


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## Encho (Jan 19, 2018)

If I recall Mr. Dux learned ninjutsu from the koga yamabushi ryu, unfortunately there is no such thing or any Japanese seriously naming their ryuha this.

There are actually schools of yamabushi the daken school is one such school.
Anyway if people enjoy Mr.dux training well that is there business, a poster here a long time ago named Josh use to be a student of dux, in his opinion it is or was what it is or was nothing more. To think that after more than 20 years of internet forums in which Rick tew, Dallas Bryce, ashida Kim, and frank dux that the world of martial arts has pretty much forgotten of or cared about such arcane relics has come to martial talk
I think personally noone is interested have moved on. Sorry had to fix an edit my autospell thinks frank sounds better as drank.


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## drop bear (Jan 19, 2018)

Encho said:


> If I recall Mr. Dux learned ninjutsu from the koga yamabushi ryu, unfortunately there is no such thing or any Japanese seriously naming their ryuha this.
> 
> There are actually schools of yamabushi the daken school is one such school.
> Anyway if people enjoy Mr.dux training well that is there business, a poster here a long time ago named Josh use to be a student of dux, in his opinion it is or was what it is or was nothing more. To think that after more than 20 years of internet forums in which Rick tew, Dallas Bryce, ashida Kim, and frank dux that the world of martial arts has pretty much forgotten of or cared about such arcane relics has come to martial talk
> I think personally noone is interested have moved on. Sorry had to fix an edit my autospell thinks frank sounds better as drank.



Because of course the real ninjas are making such a great impact on martial arts that we would need to separate the fakes.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

If the will  "The REAL Frank Dux" stand up" from the old TV Show _Whats My LIne_ not being the issue, I, raise  ANOTHER FICTION VS. FACT DISCUSSION POINT.

*FICTION:* *All Fights Can Be Ended By Using Reason & Compassion*

OK, technically speaking this myth reflects the philosophy that most all of life’s problems can be solved by sitting down and talking things out rationally.

*FACT: *I my opinion based upon empirical data and experience that while fights may be avoided through one acquiring Tactical Communication skills (and that’s exactly what we at Dux Ryu encourage our students to do) this can also lure one's guard -- make one exceptionally vulnerable. 

Theoretically, avoiding the fight altogether is the best defense. The simplest ways to do this is through one's skill sets heightening situational awareness -- as in listen to your gut instincts when it tells you don't get into that crowded elevator or be, PROACTIVE -- identify trouble areas in your community (your local police can tell you where the high crime areas are; these days they might even have it online). Just keep your wits and your calm about you.

The motive to inflict harm may be because the threat is under the influence; or mentally disturbed, or it may be because they’re depressed and pissed off at the world. Or poor. Or hungry. Or they’ve had a hard life. Or, occasionally, even because they’re just plain evil. The why doesn't matter in these situations but having the projectable measurable skills to neutralize violence using violence is what's relevant.  Not looking pretty or being traditionally proficient when doing it, either.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> @Frank Dux
> You’re claiming to be someone famous.  People are going to be skeptical.  Would you be skeptical if I claimed to be Donald Trump and started discussing politics?
> 
> Love it or hate it, a lot of controversy surrounds you.  Is it unreasonable to think people aren’t going to ask you about the controversial stuff?
> ...



Well again, my intent wasn't to insult you or anyone else but close the door to trade libel. 

First off, do not compare apples to oranges here. These tournaments are not run like a Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc tournament in their format.  Double elimination tournaments can go as long as 18 months before winner is declared and title awarded… like how Tennis Tours are run or Poker.  

Then there is the format of fighting sixty matches period that can be spread out over two to three days. The determining decision is not determined by way of elimination but by the way in which what competitor wins the most matches and scores higher compared to his opponent whom one may not even face off against. 

I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> *FICTION:* *All Fights Can Be Ended By Using Reason & Compassion*
> 
> OK, technically speaking this myth reflects the philosophy that most all of life’s problems can be solved by sitting down and talking things out rationally.


Is there a reason why you are posting this?  The supposed purpose of this thread is to flush out fact vs fiction. However while a belief about compassion would be a fiction, I have never heard anyone profess this concept in my 35 years of MA.  So it would appear that the fiction is irrelevant. Can you point out who believes this. They are your words and the exact wording is critical in this instance.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because of course the real ninjas are making such a great impact on martial arts that we would need to separate the fakes.



I feel so sorry for you as you bought into this real vs fake ninja trade libel spin up. The notion this exists is used to eliminate fair trade -- beginning since it's rabid commercialization as being a martial art title in the 1980's. There is no such title as the word "ninja" is merely a 20th century invented term used to describe what someone is doing and NOT WHAT THE ARE.

If I played basketball on a court would that make me a fake basketball player?  Of course not. That's how ridiculous and misleading the statement is to assert someone could be a fake ninja.  This again betrays a level of ignorance.


----------



## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Is there a reason why you are posting this?  The supposed purpose of this thread is to flush out fact vs fiction. However while a belief about compassion would be a fiction, I have never heard anyone profess this concept in my 35 years of MA.  So it would appear that the fiction is irrelevant. Can you point out who believes this. They are your words and the exact wording is critical in this instance.



THere exist feel good schools of martial arts that teach you can control someone using will power and chi -- e.g. no touch knockouts. They also profess a philosophy of you can end a fight with just a warm hug and a smile… I kid you not. This is what these schools teach.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Because of course the real ninjas are making such a great impact on martial arts that we would need to separate the fakes.





Midnight-shadow said:


> Well now we are getting into the sticky territory of whether Martial Arts should evolve or stay "pure", which is a topic that has occurred on this forum many times with no decisive conclusion. What I will say is that our perception of what is possible is constantly changing. In the words of Arthur C Clarke "magic is just science that we don't understand yet". When the mechanics of levers and pulleys were discovered I'm sure a lot of people thought it was magic, when in fact there is a perfectly good scientific explanation that a lot of people understand today.
> 
> Fighting has had similar mysticism surrounding it. Being able to use a large person's size and strength against them has been present in Martial Arts for centuries, but it's only recently that we fully understand how it happens thanks to advances in physics and biomechanics. Magic and mysticism turns into science.



I agree with your assessment.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Frank Dux is a choreographer with a sketchy reputation. You can read threads about him and his system in the "Horror Stories" and "Great Debate" sub-forums. I haven't personally checked, but I'm sure there will be a thread or two about him on Bullshido as well.



My reputation is far from being sketchy. Like most all celebrities we find ourselves placed under attack by those who make money from FAKE NEWS and those who exploit unfair business practices. 

I exposed Bullshido as being a prime example of Fraudsters arbitrarily calling others frauds as this video attached exemplifies my point --  manufacturing evidence as well as knowingly making use of it. Attributing statements to myself and others that were never made in order to hold people up to ridicule.  

Everyone who sees this walks away laughing at them. They are the farthest thing from being part of the real martial arts community.

Follow these links posted on YouTube by Shaolin Concepts:


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

*FACT vs FICTION: ANOTHER TOPIC OF DISCUSSION  *

*FICTION: Fights Only End When One Combatant Kills the Other*

This myth I have found is most commonly spread by a certain breed of macho martial artist. You know, the kind that is obsessed with showing off how “deadly” he is. Every technique is either deadly or maiming, and “nothing else works in the street.” Anything that isn’t heavily destructive to the opponent is “useless” and “not worth your time to learn.” They would have you believe that the _only_ way to end a fight is to brutally maim your opponent, kill him painfully, and disfigure the corpse.

*FACT: * We must determine the threat level and correspond accordingly.  My belief it is the spirit of the opponent that must be defeated and that is when the fight ends; when the aggressor no longer has the will to continue to fight.

Killing your opponent efficiently and quickly is the goal of martial arts, how ere, as the training is meant to prepare a person for military lethal engagements. Maiming and dismembering in a civilian setting works just as well. But quite often it’s more than possible to neutralize a threat with non lethal means if you train regularly and for that outcome.  This is where MMA training has an advantage over perfecting those kill or be killed traditional or modern combative techniques.

Most self defense situations do not have to escalate in fights to the death.

Far more likely you find yourself at a bar trying to control a drunk friend who’s gotten a bit wild or fending off someone pissed at the world who’s had a bit too much to drink and wants to start something.

End that confrontation by maiming or killing that poor SOB and be prepared for the high cost of defense lawyer and time at the county jail.

Ending a fight without killing or maiming your opponent is certainly much harder. It definitely takes more training and more skill to do so successfully and without putting yourself in undue danger. But possible, and for serious students in the modern age it’s definitely worth striving for versus investing time in perfecting obsolete alleged killing techniques.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> THere exist feel good schools of martial arts that teach you can control someone using will power and chi -- e.g. no touch knockouts. They also profess a philosophy of you can end a fight with just a warm hug and a smile… I kid you not. This is what these schools teach.


  ok i was going to reply to this post ,,but no.
Frank you are slowly losing any credibility that you had.
your posts are non sense.   do you think you are enlightening us all with these jems of wisdom?
these are not real issues.

*FACT:  there are no green people that live in the center of the earth!!!!!*
_some people think that there is a tribe of pigmy people that live in the center of the earth ,, this is not true._

nonsense issues.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> ok i was going to reply to this post ,,but no.
> Frank you are slowly losing any credibility that you had.
> your posts are non sense.   do you think you are enlightening us all with these jems of wisdom?
> these are not real issues.
> ...



My my aren't we being condescending.  _This is a discussion_ where you can affirm you agree the given FICTION statement is a martial art myth or defend it and say there is indeed something behind it that is not perceptible by me. Because you have not encountered someone teaching this myth does not mean I or others have not.  It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.


actually i am challenging your opinions and observations.  your posts so far are non issues.  the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post.  your posts are not bringing anything new to the table.  your myths are obvious to us.  now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board.   but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking.  i think the posters here are better than that.  i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA.   i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity.  i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.


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## CB Jones (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> *FACT: there are no green people that live in the center of the earth!!!!!*
> _some people think that there is a tribe of pigmy people that live in the center of the earth ,, this is not true._



Of course not since the world is flat....that is just silly.  There are Yetis living on the ice wall though.


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## JR 137 (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> Well again, my intent wasn't to insult you or anyone else but close the door to trade libel.
> 
> First off, do not compare apples to oranges here. These tournaments are not run like a Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc tournament in their format.  Double elimination tournaments can go as long as 18 months before winner is declared and title awarded… like how Tennis Tours are run or Poker.
> 
> ...


I honestly don’t understand what you mean.  The only way I can see this being possible is kind of like a car racing circuit...

You fight a lot of people, as does everyone else.  This can be spread over a long period of time (several weeks-months).  The person who’s got the most wins/points/etc. is declared the winner?

I’m not a car racing guy at all, but I believe they have a series of races, and there’s a champion named at the end of the season based on points such as number of first, second, etc. place finishes in the individual races.

Tennis tournaments are set up quite simply - to get into a pro championship tournament like Wimbledon, you have to compete at so many lesser tournaments and accumulate enough wins/places to qualify.  Once you’ve done that, it’s either a single or double elimination tournament where people are eliminated until there’s one left.  This doesn’t seem like what you’re saying, even though you said they’re similar.  Same as a poker tournament - there’s multiple tables going on, and the top people at each table move on to another table, over and over until one person remains.  Nothing like what you’re describing.

The way you describe it seems like a series championship rather than a tournament.  Just about everyone views a tournament as win and advance and you’re out after a number of losses.  Many people raise doubts of your claim because your use of the term tournament.  People don’t raise significant doubts of Oyama’s 100 man kumite claim because the criteria is clearly laid out.  If UNC claimed 20 consecutive NCAA Basketball Tournament wins, it’s easy to figure out how - they would’ve had to win the tournament a few times in a row. 

I’m not saying you’re lying, I’m just trying to understand the logistics of your tournament.  Can you be more specific beyond “its like a tennis or poker tournament?”  And approximately how many competitors were in the tournament, other than “a lot?”  Such as “I had to fight all 60 people over the course of 1 year, and I was declared the winner because I had the most points from wins, KOs, least losses, etc.

Again, no accusations on my end.  I’m just interested in how your tournament works.  You’re a teacher, I’m a student. If you can break down how your tournament works instead of “it’s like a x-event” I’d learn.  Poking around the internet, I’m definitely not the only one who’s drawing a blank about how 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament is possible.

Edit: should I start another thread to not sidetrack this one?


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## skribs (Jan 20, 2018)

I've never heard of a single martial arts school who says you can avoid every fight.  I've also never heard of a martial arts school that says you must kill your opponent.

My guess is you're posting new "fictions" to try to get off the other topic in the thread.



Frank Dux said:


> Well again, my intent wasn't to insult you or anyone else but close the door to trade libel.
> 
> First off, do not compare apples to oranges here. These tournaments are not run like a Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc tournament in their format.  Double elimination tournaments can go as long as 18 months before winner is declared and title awarded… like how Tennis Tours are run or Poker.
> 
> ...



Tennis tournaments take place over a few weeks, and poker tournaments over a few hours.  I've never heard of a tournament lasting 18 months.  That sounds more like a season in a sport than a tournament, especially since record is concerned.  You say it's not based on elimination, but based on the way you win and how you win.  So did you knock out 56 people?  Or did you just win 56 matches in a double elimination tournament?  What was the time period in which this took place?



Frank Dux said:


> My my aren't we being condescending.  _This is a discussion_ where you can affirm you agree the given FICTION statement is a martial art myth or defend it and say there is indeed something behind it that is not perceptible by me. Because you have not encountered someone teaching this myth does not mean I or others have not.  It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.



Wow.  This is your most arrogant post yet.  "It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement."  What?  You're using your own words to say that others agree with you?  My goodness.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jan 20, 2018)

@Frank Dux
actually there is something you could help me understand as fact or fiction for me.
as was already stated you studied Koga Yamabushi ryu.  so the Yamabushi of koga were ...."_They follow the Shugendō doctrine, an integration of mainly esoteric Buddhism of the Shingon sect,"   
Yamabushi - Wikipedia
_
so my understanding is that the koga Yamabushi were of a branch of the Tachikawa-Ryu of the Shingon sect.  but were also followers of the Buddhist tradition of a male only inclusion (women were not originally allowed to practice Buddhism until Ananda) these male only practitioners of Tachikawa Ryu were known as Okama.   this would make sense because the Yamabushi were wondering mountain warriors.   so am i correct in assuming the branch of Ninjutsu you studied comes from this lineage?  and were there women in the dojo at the time you studied or did they still follow the old traditions of men only??
_
_


----------



## Finlay (Jan 20, 2018)

As an aside

Mr. Dux.

Your gi seems to be quite unique in its design. Can you explain the additional padding round the shoulders. It would see to provide extra holds while grappling

Is there any practical reason for havin these?


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> *FACT vs FICTION: ANOTHER TOPIC OF DISCUSSION  *
> 
> *FICTION: Fights Only End When One Combatant Kills the Other*
> 
> ...



You know, I had a conversation about this very topic awhile ago with someone else on here. They were of the opinion that if someone attacks them, they should severely harm or even kill the attacker rather than simply subduing them. Their reasoning was if you only subdue an attacker without injuring them, they could very well return with either a gun or more people to attack you again. They didn't want to take that risk and so said they would choose to use excessive force right off the bat. While I can sort of see their logic, you have to take into account the law aspects of this. Excessive force in a self-defence scenario is going to get you into a lot of trouble regardless of what the attacker was doing. 

Even in a historical context where severe injury and death was more likely, most of the time you didn't need to kill your opponent to win. On the battlefield, 1 deep cut to the body, or the dismemberment of a limb was more than enough to render someone helpless for the rest of the battle. There was no need to finish off your opponent straight away, and most of the time in a chaotic battle you didn't get a chance to anyway. You sliced through an opponent and then moved onto the next 1 until either you were cut down or there were no enemies left to fight. Obviously 1v1 duels worked slightly differently, but the principle still applied since there was limited medical aid and no kind of state welfare available. If you lost your arm during a fight chances were you would either die from the immediate blood loss, or the wound would get infected and you would die from that. If you did survive you probably wouldn't be able to work and would be cast aside by society to starve to death.


----------



## Buka (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> If the will  "The REAL Frank Dux" stand up" from the old TV Show _Whats My LIne_ not being the issue, I, raise  ANOTHER FICTION VS. FACT DISCUSSION POINT.



Don't mean to nitpick here, but "Will the REAL so and so please stand up" is from the game show "_To Tell The Truth"_, not "_What's my Line?"_

Irony noted.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> actually i am challenging your opinions and observations.  your posts so far are non issues.  the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post.  your posts are not bringing anything new to the table.  your myths are obvious to us.  now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board.   but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking.  i think the posters here are better than that.  i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA.   i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity.  i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
> lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.




Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me.  It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised. 

Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the kill or be killed to excuse themselves from not participating in any form of full contact competition. They use the my techniques can't be altered and would kill argument. 

They claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs.

I was hoping to address counter arguments after putting forth my own, addressing why I find their words a fiction. 

Hoshin you are at best guess probably one of those same folks and being incapable of expanding upon my challenge either by affirming you hold the same view or put forth an argument defending your position, possibly embarrassed by your own prior representations you lash out and attack me instead. Dismiss my argument as an inconsequential statement which betrays to me your true level of understanding and prejudice. Naturally, your own words prove you are the one with nothing new to say.


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## Encho (Jan 20, 2018)

"They claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs"

This coming from a guy who was trained by secret ninja warrior monks.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me.  It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised.
> 
> Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the kill or be killed to excuse themselves from not participating in any form of full contact competition. They use the my techniques can't be altered and would kill argument.
> 
> ...


i see your missing my point.   we all know there are charlatan's out there. this is not news to us. we already were quite aware of the fallacy of no touch knockouts and magic chi balls. the list of these people and their beliefs are endless in absurdity.  so the question is ok  ...now what ?,,, no one here thinks this is true. what was your point?  is there something you wanted to delve into on this?  there will be no takers on challenging you on this being true or not  so what now..?


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i see your missing my point.   we all know there are charlatan's out there. this is not news to us. we already were quite aware of the fallacy of no touch knockouts and magic chi balls. the list of these people and their beliefs are endless in absurdity.  so the question is ok  ...now what ?,,, no one here thinks this is true. what was your point?  is there something you wanted to delve into on this?  there will be no takers on challenging you on this being true or not  so what now..?



I feel that the term "preaching to the choir" applies very aptly here.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 20, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> actually i am challenging your opinions and observations.  your posts so far are non issues.  the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post.  your posts are not bringing anything new to the table.  your myths are obvious to us.  now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board.   but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking.  i think the posters here are better than that.  i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA.   i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity.  i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
> lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.



Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me. It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised.

Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the "kill or be killed" claim as an excuse when asked why haven't they or their students participated in any form of full contact competition. They use the old "my techniques can't be altered and would kill" claim as their argument.

Yes, these folks claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs.

I was hoping to address counter arguments after putting forth my own, addressing why I find their words a fiction.

Hoshin you are at best guess probably one of those same macho kill or be killed folks. To be assumed with you proving incapable of expanding upon my statements either by affirming them true and or challenge them and explain why. You more than likely hold the same view I call a fiction. 

Its apparent to me that you dismiss the discussion as you are unable to put forth an argument defending your position -- possibly embarrassed by your own prior representations.  

To just dismiss my observations as an inconsequential statement betrays to me your true level of understanding and prejudice. Naturally, your own words prove you are on here the one with nothing new to say -- projecting unto me your own 10 year old mindset.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Okayyy...so been off this forum for a while and come back to this...


We're blaming it on your return, then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> No Im here not hiding like some coward behind an avatar using an alias. I make myself accountable by doing so whereas you skirt the issue and perhaps all that betrays your level of understanding with regards to this topic and others so that may role play you speak with an authoritarian voice when you should be asking questions or sharing what you believe to be true. Its shameful you feel inclined to remain a nobody as everyone has real value and everyone's voice, thoughts and good deeds has value for others who honor the truth.


Ironically, the most "authoritarian voice" in this thread - by an order of magnitude - is yours.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Full Disclosure.....
> 
> I’m John Wick
> 
> But please don’t call me Baba yaga


I am Groot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> THere exist feel good schools of martial arts that teach you can control someone using will power and chi -- e.g. no touch knockouts. They also profess a philosophy of you can end a fight with just a warm hug and a smile… I kid you not. This is what these schools teach.


I've met people who believed the former. I've never once met a person - inside or outside the martial arts - who believed the latter.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> *FACT vs FICTION: ANOTHER TOPIC OF DISCUSSION  *
> 
> *FICTION: Fights Only End When One Combatant Kills the Other*
> 
> ...


Another fiction I've never heard put forth. If it's not real, does that make it a fictional fiction?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> My my aren't we being condescending.  _This is a discussion_ where you can affirm you agree the given FICTION statement is a martial art myth or defend it and say there is indeed something behind it that is not perceptible by me. Because you have not encountered someone teaching this myth does not mean I or others have not.  It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.


You've left out the other possibility: that it's not a martial art claim, at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Edit: should I start another thread to not sidetrack this one?


Given the rambling nature of this thread, I don't think much of anything would qualify as a side track.


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## Martial D (Jan 20, 2018)

So, 

A) this is a fake and should be ignored

Or

B) the real McCoy has a penchant for nonsense, and should be ignored.

Same outcome.


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## JR 137 (Jan 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Another fiction I've never heard put forth. If it's not real, does that make it a fictional fiction?


Nope.  Double negative, therefore fictional fiction would have to be fact.  Like when my students like to say “I’m not doing no homework this weekend.”


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## MA_Student (Jan 22, 2018)

Hello grandmaster I hereby challenge you to a death match in the Kunmite bare fist let us see who the true champion is....lol


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## Danny T (Jan 22, 2018)

The fact is there is so much fiction and it is not worth much time or effort.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 22, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Nope.  Double negative, therefore fictional fiction would have to be fact.  Like when my students like to say “I’m not doing no homework this weekend.”



I disagree. Going by the definitions, if something is fictional it means it has been created and only exists in the mind (i.e. it is not real), so in order to fictionalise a piece of fiction you are literally taking a piece of fiction and making more fiction out of the previous fiction. By doing so you could move either back towards reality or even further from it.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I disagree. Going by the definitions, if something is fictional it means it has been created and only exists in the mind (i.e. it is not real), so in order to fictionalise a piece of fiction you are literally taking a piece of fiction and making more fiction out of the previous fiction. By doing so you could move either back towards reality or even further from it.



You have spent way to much time thinking about this....haven't you


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## CB Jones (Jan 22, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I disagree. Going by the definitions, if something is fictional it means it has been created and only exists in the mind (i.e. it is not real), so in order to fictionalise a piece of fiction you are literally taking a piece of fiction and making more fiction out of the previous fiction. By doing so you could move either back towards reality or even further from it.



Pretty sure that's how you enter.......The Twilight Zone......bum, bum, bummmmmmmm


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 22, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> You have spent way to much time thinking about this....haven't you



You have no idea, and I have the headache to show for it haha


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## jks9199 (Jan 22, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Hello grandmaster I hereby challenge you to a death match in the Kunmite bare fist let us see who the true champion is....lol


Recognizing this is a joke -- let's not forget that challenge posts are forbidden by The Rules here at MartialTalk.


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## Saheim (Jan 22, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I disagree. Going by the definitions, if something is fictional it means it has been created and only exists in the mind (i.e. it is not real), so in order to fictionalise a piece of fiction you are literally taking a piece of fiction and making more fiction out of the previous fiction. By doing so you could move either back towards reality or even further from it.



Exactly! Like adding to negative numbers does not give you a positive total.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 22, 2018)

Saheim said:


> Exactly! Like adding to negative numbers does not give you a positive total.



But it will positively give you a number


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## MA_Student (Jan 22, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Recognizing this is a joke -- let's not forget that challenge posts are forbidden by The Rules here at MartialTalk.


Of course it's a joke and of course I don't plan to fight anyone on here and if @Frank Dux sees this then I meant no offence or disrespect and of course don't want to fight anyone it was a comment made in jest when I just woke up and if there's any offence taken i apologise


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## _Simon_ (Jan 22, 2018)

jks9199 said:


> Recognizing this is a joke -- let's not forget that challenge posts are forbidden by The Rules here at MartialTalk.





MA_Student said:


> Of course it's a joke and of course I don't plan to fight anyone on here and if @Frank Dux sees this then I meant no offence or disrespect and of course don't want to fight anyone it was a comment made in jest when I just woke up and if there's any offence taken i apologise


Ahh.. I'd already sold tickets to it...

XD


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## CB Jones (Jan 22, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ahh.. I'd already sold tickets to it...
> 
> XD



And I am already taking wagers.....


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## JR 137 (Jan 23, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> And I am already taking wagers.....


I bet on Chung Lee.  Lost some cash last time.  Hopefully this time he’ll get his revenge.


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## MA_Student (Jan 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I bet on Chung Lee.  Lost some cash last time.  Hopefully this time he’ll get his revenge.


My money's on boyka lol


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## CB Jones (Jan 23, 2018)

No.  I’m taking bets on MA student v. Dux 

Dux. -145
MA student +160


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## Balrog (Jan 23, 2018)

I can't believe I read this entire thread.  

<wanders off to get more popcorn>

We need a popcorn-eating smiley


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## CB Jones (Jan 23, 2018)

Balrog said:


> I can't believe I read this entire thread.
> 
> <wanders off to get more popcorn>
> 
> We need a popcorn-eating smiley










I like the gifs


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## Martial D (Jan 23, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> No.  I’m taking bets on MA student v. Dux
> 
> Dux. -145
> MA student +160


So, a young guy that actually trains in combative martial arts vs an old man that doesn't.

How you got the latter as favourite?


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## CB Jones (Jan 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> So, a young guy that actually trains in combative martial arts vs an old man that doesn't.
> 
> How you got the latter as favourite?



Well....What do we actually know about MA Student.......

For the most part we have:






  v.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I thought the odds were pretty fair.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 24, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Well....What do we actually know about MA Student.......
> 
> For the most part we have:
> 
> ...



Well.... MA Student is pretty pointy


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## Balrog (Jan 24, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I like the gifs


My GIF-fu skills are weak.  I tried to use a gif but couldn't get it to work.


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## geezer (Jan 24, 2018)

Balrog said:


> I can't believe I read this entire thread.
> 
> <wanders off to get more popcorn>We need a popcorn-eating smiley



Don't feel bad. I read a few pages until I realized the guy was saying that he was "Dux" not _Drax!

https://www.sideshowtoy.com/wp-cont...-drax-sixth-scale-hot-toys-feature-902669.jpg

_


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 24, 2018)

I don't think CB Jones brought enough popcorn....


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 24, 2018)

Oh man, this one is classic...or at least it is to my somewhat demented old mind..... it just seems to be perfect


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## JR 137 (Jan 24, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> I don't think CB Jones brought enough popcorn....


He’s going to need A LOT more soda than that.


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## drop bear (Jan 24, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Of course it's a joke and of course I don't plan to fight anyone on here and if @Frank Dux sees this then I meant no offence or disrespect and of course don't want to fight anyone it was a comment made in jest when I just woke up and if there's any offence taken i apologise



Nope you are locked in.








(bloodsport would have been too obvious.)


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## Midnight-shadow (Jan 25, 2018)

You know, i think we scared Dux away. Too bad, he was fun to talk to.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 26, 2018)

MA_Student said:


> Of course it's a joke and of course I don't plan to fight anyone on here and if @Frank Dux sees this then I meant no offence or disrespect and of course don't want to fight anyone it was a comment made in jest when I just woke up and if there's any offence taken i apologise



No offense taken now... and here I thought the challenge would also have "a purse"... Bob Wall challenged me for $4million according to Martial Art Sport Museum curator Gary Lee.  I considered until I found out I could be charged with senior abuse.  Skillful trap avoided.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 26, 2018)

FACT vs. FICTION


JR 137 said:


> There’s absolutely no ignorance in my asking how you could have 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament.  Citing Oyama’s 100 man kumite is showing ignorance on your part.  Allow me to elaborate...
> 
> The 100 man kumite is NOT a tournament.  It is a single karateka fighting 100 consecutive opponents.  The only way to advance in the 100 man kumite is to beat or draw each opponent.  It is not a tournament, as there’s no winners nor losers.  The person either completes it or it stops.
> 
> ...




First off you cant arbitrarily declare a 100 man Kumite is not a tournament when a tournament is defined as a contest between multiple competitors.

Your framework of understanding is seemingly based upon an erroneous assumption. Yes, while some Karateka who view a 100 man Kumite as a test of endurance it nonetheless can be and is under Society of Black Dragon utilized in the Asian cultural traditional manner. Multiple people are in competition with each other in attempting the same feat (i.e. fighting and defeating 100 or 60 combatants). 

Each competitor is measuring their performance vs the next person facing the same challenge.  The 56 man knockouts argument you propose is done according to western cultural tournament interpretation which is rules of single elimination. This round-robin jousting format is not true in the case for all Kumites. 

Each fighter has 60 opponents to fight. Scores are tallied by wins vs defeats by which to determine the final winner. Some participants cannot complete the sixty fight requirement and thus are eliminated.  Some fight the sixty bouts but lose more matches compared to another competitor doing likewise. These tournaments can be held and conclude over a period of one day or up to 18 months. I hope this dispels the assumptions and faulty conclusion.


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## CB Jones (Jan 26, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> and here I thought the challenge would also have "a purse"








Ok......Let's Do This!!!


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## Frank Dux (Jan 26, 2018)

The blonde mamba… that your boy CB Jones?


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## CB Jones (Jan 26, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> The blonde mamba… that your boy CB Jones?



Yeah....he is my youngest knucklehead.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 27, 2018)

Awesome… how many knuckleheads you got?


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## CB Jones (Jan 28, 2018)

Just the 2 pictured.

Older brother is handicapped so he fills the role of his Agent, Manager, Promoter, and Videographer.  He is a shrewd negotiator that completely spoils his lil brother.


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## Frank Dux (Jan 28, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Just the 2 pictured.
> 
> Older brother is handicapped so he fills the role of his Agent, Manager, Promoter, and Videographer.  He is a shrewd negotiator that completely spoils his lil brother.



Thats even more awesome as the two grow they learn early on to support each other emotionally and spiritually. Your obviously a good man to inspire those roles in your children and your wife must be a saint.  Not too many women can deal with martial arts competing with them for attention.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 28, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> FACT vs. FICTION
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So just to clarify, what is the tournament that you entered with the 56 KO? To clarify, I never heard of it until this thread...I'm just curious on how the tournament worked...was it single or double elimination, or a round robin situation, or a free-for-all with 60 participants that you came out on top? EIther way, 56 KO's are incredibly impressive, I'm just curious about the circumstances around them.

I'm guessing from your comments it was a round robin. So do you happen to remember how many competitiors there were, and hd how many of them you defeated?

As a side note, I'm thinking back to a specific tournament (the temple open) when I fenced. We would have  a tournament that was 2 rounds round robin, followed by single elimination. There was somewhere around 200 people in each weapon that would participate. So we would have a round robin pool with 6 people, where the top 80% would continue, then a second round robin to determine comp was probably 10 matches at max, so assuming both round robins and single elimination, the most matches would be 20. And that was with 200 competitors per weapon. So my question is; how many competitors were at your tournament, and how did you (or the organizers) manage to arrange so any fights before determining the victor?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 28, 2018)

I can't remember exact number of who attended when I earned that record but I think the confusion largely stems from people assuming its 56 different people because of how the movie portrayed it as single elimination bouts.  

You have to understand it was many years ago and I fought in any number of different events. Each promoter all had different formats.  

UFC/MMA copied Bloodsport but gained its success when it was restructured along the lines of traditional boxing with timed rounds.  

Traditional Kumite is based on aggregate amount of fights fought and then comparing the number of wins to determine the final elimination rounds.  For example Ken beats Tom in two out of three matches but Tom nonetheless ends up declared winner or moves into elimination circle because the amount of wins Tom had over Ken over the course tournament was greater.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 28, 2018)

Frank Dux said:


> I can't remember exact number of who attended but I think the confusion largely stems from people assuming its 56 different people because of how the movie portrayed it as single elimination bouts.


So were the 56 people, some of the same? And was it single elimination, or round robin?


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## Frank Dux (Jan 28, 2018)

I have entered events where I fought several fighters more than once. 

I was the winner of one event doing a 60 man Kumite (20 fights per day for 3 days). Another event I fought was conducted over an 18 month period in which I fought well over 60 different opponents total match ups.  

There existed Kumite events where winner does a 100 man Kumite not ever fighting same guy twice.  But the 100 fighting aren't all necessarily one's competitors entered in the competition.  

In golf you play against the hole and who has lowest score wins. Likewise, who has least loses or points against them wins.

What made this a fascinating challenge is that the formats changed which kept everyone on their toes. Also it wasn't about competing for prestige and $$$ like in UFC but respect and honor of fellow Black Dragons and invitees… After all, the Kumite was a learning experience. More about having a safe environment to exchange information and test not only yourself but technique. Thus, where you weren't judged inferior to the other fighter because you failed to be the winner.  

In those days there was no other means to get "real information."  No books or film footage and certainly no internet existed by which to dive into to attain pearls of wisdom.  Point fighting didn't do it for many of us… and neither did kickboxing because it lacked grappling. 

It was the golden age of True Martial Arts Spirit -- by invitation only. 

The biggest loudmouths and deniers were either too CS to compete or worse… never were invited to participate or even watch. So of course they deny or poo poo it. But Ed Parker Father of American Karate was there… Mas Oyama held his own version of it… In Brazil it was called Vale Tudo… even televised.  In Chicago in 1969 Michael Felkoff was the promoter who held the first MMA bare knuckle open challenge that Official Karate covered.  

I hope this was helpful to you.


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