# Shaolin Taichi



## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 11, 2008)

Never heard of Shaolin Tai chi:

http://templeartsfitness.com/blogs/taiji-tai-chi-class-description/

Thoughts?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2008)

> As one of the oldest arts of China, Taiji is vast and intertwined with the rich history of China.


 
Actually the oldest CMA still in existence today is shuaijiao which pre-dates Chen Wangting the founder of Chen Taijiquan by 4297 years



> Taiji has been used in China for thousands of years to help the practitioner cultivate his body and mind and is used to physically strengthen the body and discipline the mind to create harmony all around you


 
There is a historical reference that is rather old to Taiji dao yin. But that is not taiji and it is, if memeory serves not much older than 1000 years but I will need to see if I can find the article that mentions it. However it is not taijiquan. There was some speculation that Taijiquan was a combination ot taiji dao yin (qigong) Paoqui and whatever the Chen family was doing and then you get Chen style. However the Zhaobao people do not agree. 



> Taiji actually was one of the only styles of ancient Chinese martial arts to survive the onslaught of invasions and rebellions that occurred well over 4,000 years ago within China.


 
This is just plain wrong. This would put taijiquan in the Xia dynasty 1600 BCE &#8212; 1046 BCE, First no taiji then that can be historically verified or for that matter not even any legendary reference. And what the heck is he talking about the onslaught of invasion and rebellion. They need to study Chinese history a bit more



> Shaolin Taiji resembles most the Chen Style of Taiji which is the oldest style of Taiji


 
Chen family itself says the origin of taijiquan is Chen Wangting (1600-1680) that is between 408 to 328 years ago not Thousands of years ago.

My thoughts are at best it is based on mythology at worst it is an outright lie for impressing others, making money and gaining students.


----------



## clfsean (Nov 11, 2008)

Shaolin Taiji = Chen Taiji courtesy of Chen Zhen lei last I heard.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 11, 2008)

Ah I thought it was some what weird.

I would agree that Shuaijiao would be the oldest in fact most of wrestling type arts seem to be the first. 


I would be interested in seeing the Tai chi Dao yin article. I have heard similar accounts of it but never learned nor have read a good source of it.


Agreed on Chen Wangting reconized by the Chen family as the founder of Chen style.

See the thing I was confused on was 1.A Shaolin Tai chi which seems odd to me 2. Chen style being not that old compared to other arts finding itself to Shaolin temple and the forms looking a like.

I thought there was an article showing a Shaolin art with similar movements to Chen style

From Wiki:

"Chen Wangting himself had to seek refuge for a short time at the Shaolin temple. For all these reasons we should assume some amount of exchanges have occured until now"

I will ask my teacher concerning that.

.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2008)

There has been more than one "speculation" that Chen Taiji is a combination of whatever the Chen family was doing and Shaolin paoqui and some other qigong. However the Chen family denies that.

There was also an article recently, I need to find, that talk about the Zhaobao taiji claim that their style does not come form Chen Taiji but from the same source that Chen Taiji came from. And it seemed to confirm the Zhaobao claim. It may have been on EF I'm not sure.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2008)

I just went a looked for the Zhaobao article and I cant find it. It may have been in a magazine but, sorry this is off topic, from what many Zhaobao people claim is that their style is older than Chen and directly from Lao Zi and Zhang Sangfeng which is likely a load of bull. However the article I read was a translation and it said, if my old brain is remembering correctly, that it may not be from Chen as the Chen family claims but from the same place at about the same time and NOT from the infamous Zhang Senfeng.  

The other article about Taiji Dao Yin I beleive is from JAMA I will look for it.


----------



## clfsean (Nov 11, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> "Chen Wangting himself had to seek refuge for a short time at the Shaolin temple. For all these reasons we should assume some amount of exchanges have occured until now"
> 
> ...



Even then, Chenjiaguo is only about 40 miles from Shaolinsi as the crow flies. It stands to reason that were exchanges going on for a while with the proximity between the two & Chen Wangting being an mid ranked (not necessarily highly ranked) local military officer. I'm sure he would've had a reason or chance to visit there.

I don't know how the roads used to be through there, but cross the river on the way to Luoyang or even Kaifeng (old capitals of Henan) & Shaolin isn't that far off the path.


----------



## Laoshi77 (Nov 21, 2008)

I like Shuai Jiao and it is a very good style, so too is Qin Na, combine them both and you have Taijiquan.

Many of the principles, and indeed applications are very, very similar in fact most of the applications in Taijiquan often end up with dumping the opponent on the ground in exactly the same way as Shuai Jiao and Qin Na.


----------



## Rabu (Nov 21, 2008)

There are many things which are strange.

One of them is the fascination with old things.

For a moment think on the following examples:

Milk
cheese
wine
Bow and arrow
firearm

Some of those things get better with time.  Some get better then rapidly get worse.  Even the shape of some of them has changed over time as well as the effectiveness.

The points above on Shao Lin Taichi seem well stated.  Being able to trace back to older things is always nice in my opinion in that you have a history to learn and engage you as well.

I am sure I have seen people claim their arts derive from the original human 'cave man' era of unarmed and weapon combat.

Looks like a commercial school to me.

Rob


----------



## mograph (Nov 22, 2008)

Yes. Some martial arts get better with time, some get worse. Oldest isn't necessarily best.  Was Yang an improvement over Chen? Which Yang? Which Chen? How about Yiquan? Is every art after Shaolin a defilement or refinement?

Maybe young people favor the "new and improved", while us older folk favor the "old and untarnished". 

It's good to know what's out there, though. And keep studying.


----------



## Nebuchadnezzar (Nov 22, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Never heard of Shaolin Tai chi:......


 
That's because their is no such animal.


----------

