# Should a photo (such as on MySpace) stop one from obtaining a degree or keeping a job?



## Ceicei (Apr 29, 2007)

A student on the eve of her University graduation was denied her education degree and teaching certificate just simply because of her MySpace picture of herself (halloween party wearing a pirate hat and drinking out of a "Mr. Goodbar" cup).  She was given her English degree instead.

I sometimes wonder to what extent can colleges and universities go in withholding degrees?  I don't think she posed nude or anything like that...  Anyway, the woman is suing the University.

http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660216115,00.html

In a similar vein, there have been several anecdotes of how companies and corporations are reaching into the private lives of prospective and ongoing employees to determine whether one could be hired or keep a job.  There are quite a few mentioned (about being fired for similar offenses) on the internet about this already so I will not link to them.

Should there a level of privacy to expect and if so, how much?  Are we, as a society, each living a life that is an "open window for anyone to view" that we are no longer able to separate our off-duty behavior from school/work?  How much of ourselves are considered public or private?  Can no one now ever be able to relax without worry about whether "to look over the shoulder"?

- Ceicei


----------



## MA-Caver (Apr 29, 2007)

The right to privacy is rapidly becoming (if not already) one of our most cherished freedoms and that is being taken away little by little. It's both voluntary and involuntary. The internet doesn't help, and posting profiles and (personal) information about yourself on MySpace, Yahoo, AOL etc, forums and on-line dating sites reveal a-lot that you probably wouldn't otherwise reveal in person to person interaction in a (relatively) short period of time. Taking little quizzes and "what kind of ???? are you?" also reveal little hidden bits of personal info. Accumulate them altogether what do you have? Your psyche profile and your loss of privacy as to who/what you are. 

I don't think companies should hire on the basis that this or that person fits this or that type of personality/profile. Background information, i.e. arrest records are important, particularly if the job entails some type of security at one level or another. But just because you're a type A or type B personality or you like prancing around in the underwear of the opposite sex or associate with this or that person... shouldn't be the basis of why you were (or not) hired. 

Your skills/ability at doing the job and the amount of experience and education to go with it should be the basis of a job qualified applicant.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2007)

Can you say Gattaca?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 29, 2007)

More and more, companies are using tools like Google to look for information on potential employees.  It's not a matter of privacy invasion, but stupidity on the part of people.  If I post stuff that indicates behavior that may not fit a companies 'culture' or mores, that's my fault.  Teens post incredibly personal information on their myspace or livejournal pages, right down to addresses, phone numbers, and when no one will be home....them wonder why the house got robbed.  People post pictures of themselves in 'wild-party' mode, or bragging about illegal activity like drug use then wonder why their job prospects are nil.

Folks, it's simple.  Don't post anything you don't want the world to know.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Apr 29, 2007)

Id be pissed. As a college student you PAY A LOT OF MONEY to a college, and for them to do that based on a non-academic reason? Id sue.


----------



## Andrew Green (Apr 29, 2007)

I saw that as well, here's another story, which includes the "inappropriate" picture: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0426072pirate1.html


----------



## Kacey (Apr 29, 2007)

Do I think the picture should prevent her from getting a degree that she completed all the requirements for?  No, I don't.

Do I think she screwed up her chances of getting a job as a teacher when she posted it?  I see it as a distinct possibility - although I don't know that I agree that what she does outside of school time, off school grounds, with no proof that she is doing anything wrong (and what _is_ in that cup) should have that effect.  Nonetheless, I agree with Bob - if you don't want it to affect your life, _don't post it on the internet_.


----------



## Ceicei (Apr 29, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I saw that as well, here's another story, which includes the "inappropriate" picture: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0426072pirate1.html




:idunno: I don't understand what is inappropriate with that picture.  She could just as easily be drinking water in that cup.  There is nothing shown in the picture that would have indicated anything to bar her ability to teach.

- Ceicei


----------



## michaeledward (Apr 29, 2007)

Ceicei said:


> I don't understand what is inappropriate with that picture. She could just as easily be drinking water in that cup. There is nothing shown in the picture that would have indicated anything to bar her ability to teach.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
The only argument that can be made relates to the caption of the photo ... "Drunken Pirate" ... and not the photo itself.

Millersville University is wrong on this, completely and totally. Soon they will retract their statements and issue the degree and teaching certificate.

However, Ms. Snyder may have a difficult time finding a job in the wake of this incident; sadly.


----------



## MA-Caver (Apr 29, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> Can you say Gattaca?


Umm... I can, but I don't think it's quite the same thing, although the future represented in the film is definitely (another) one we should work hard to avoid having. 

The discrimination in Gattca was based on genetics... sorta similar to the idea of Hitler's "master  race" with superior beings. This is personality discrimination... which IMO is pretty darn stoopid.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Apr 29, 2007)

I guess employers like to stick to the good old fashioned "ostrich" interview technique where we all pretend that everybody is perfect. I rather find out ALL my prospects "issues" right up front vs. believing the "show" we all put on at job interviews only to get stuck with a problem child down the road. There needs to be a balance here somewhere.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 29, 2007)

I've read several stories recently about colleges of education and of social work applying what amount to "personal belief tests" for would-be graduates. Once case involved a teacher who believed it was acceptable to spank children, but who gave no indication that he would attempt to do it to others's children. Some students have complained that being conservative is enough to have them banned...a social work student was to be denied a degree for failing to support some progressive social cause (but I think the decision was reversed by higher authorities).



Blotan Hunka said:


> Id be pissed. As a college student you PAY A LOT OF MONEY to a college, and for them to do that based on a non-academic reason? Id sue.



But there's the rub...what's an academic reason? If an education student stated that he or she held an inappropriate view--say, that he or she was a member of the KKK--should the degree be granted? I would say yes, grant the degree, but deny the state teaching license. But if your state university was granting degrees to such a person, would the public be OK with that?


----------



## MBuzzy (Apr 29, 2007)

It is unfortunate that companies and universities are doing this type of thing - we're dealing with the same problem in the military though.  People are posting pictures and statements which violote security or show them in uniform doing things that they should not be doing.  

The bottom line is that you need to be aware of what you are putting on the internet.  It is fair game for anyone...like it or not.  If you put it out there, people can find it.  It is like pleading the fifth - it isn't officially admissible, but it gives a certain perception.

There are plenty of threads on this forum that I have restrained myself from commenting in due to my military status.  There are more that I have commented in, but had to censor my comments in the name of security.  It is just the way of the world.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Apr 29, 2007)

MA-Caver said:


> Umm... I can, but I don't think it's quite the same thing, although the future represented in the film is definitely (another) one we should work hard to avoid having.
> 
> The discrimination in Gattca was based on genetics... sorta similar to the idea of Hitler's "master race" with superior beings. This is personality discrimination... which IMO is pretty darn stoopid.


 
That's true.  But this is discrimination based on the invasion of ones privacy in a very inappropriate manner.  Just your genetics cannot determine how well you may perform in your job (remember the main character of Gattaca was clearly performing in a job he was supposedly genetically unsuited for) a photograph with no context, or sketchy at best, cannot be used to determine if someone is capable of being a teacher.

You're right this sought of discrimination is stupid and like that in Gattaca we should work hard to stamp it out.


----------



## Dave Leverich (Apr 30, 2007)

It disgusts me that someone loses an entire degree based upon a picture.


----------



## Carol (Apr 30, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> That's true. But this is discrimination based on the invasion of ones privacy in a very inappropriate manner. Just your genetics cannot determine how well you may perform in your job (remember the main character of Gattaca was clearly performing in a job he was supposedly genetically unsuited for) a photograph with no context, or sketchy at best, cannot be used to determine if someone is capable of being a teacher.
> 
> You're right this sought of discrimination is stupid and like that in Gattaca we should work hard to stamp it out.


 
Without diverting the convo in to a discussion of civil rights case law...using a photo alone to screen a job applicant is essentially illegal in the U.S.

However, what is happening here is not discrimination based on a photo, this is based on a chunk of information that the woman in question seemingly voluntarily published to the public internet.


----------



## Drac (Apr 30, 2007)

What a lame reason...I wonder what will happen when one of the young ladies that appeared in the "Girls Gone Wild" DVD"s applies for a entry level job in the future or is getting ready for her graduation???


----------



## michaeledward (Apr 30, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> this is based on a chunk of information that the woman in question seemingly voluntarily published to the public internet.


 
However, the school had no published policy on the matter.
The State Boards had no published policy on the matter. 
Even if Ms. Snyder was "three sheets to the wind", there is nothing illegal about that in this country.

No, this is (once again) the morality police, imposing their beliefs simply because they don't approve. They guise it in the argument that the 'children might be bothered' ... but, it is simply a holier than thou argument. 

I predict once a bit of sunlight gets turn toward this event, the school will back down. And if they don't, I think the settlement should entitle Ms. Snyder to never have to work again.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 30, 2007)

I'm pretty confident that she will receive her degree and some serious compensation in the end from the school.  Really it is stunning that they would not give her a degree based on this picture and a myspace account.  They will lose in the end as I see the facts.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 30, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I'm pretty confident that she will receive her degree and some serious compensation in the end from the school.



That's my guess too...but they may still win in the court of public opinion if they claim they did it to "protect the children."


----------



## JBrainard (Apr 30, 2007)

arnisador said:


> ...but they may still win in the court of public opinion if they claim they did it to "protect the children."


 
I don't want to derail the way the thread is progressing, but from the get go I have been thinking about something: So the hell what if she got drunk at a party! This is all part of our society's puritanical belief that drinking is wrong. It's the same stupid reason why the windows on pubs are tinted. If children see adults less than sober then, OH MY GOD, they will be ruined for life. In our society, if this woman is a full blown alcoholic and keeps it under wraps, that's fine, but if she shares with people on her MySpace account that she likes to get pissed during a HOLIDAY party, she is unfit to be a teacher. ********. And the ultimate irony, of course, is that our society's attitude towards alcohol is exactly what makes excessive drinking seem "cool," it becomes a form of rebellion.
A university (you know, where smart people are supposed to be congregating) shouldn't buy into the stupidity of our "alcohol is a sinful vice" culture.


----------



## MJS (Apr 30, 2007)

Ceicei said:


> A student on the eve of her University graduation was denied her education degree and teaching certificate just simply because of her MySpace picture of herself (halloween party wearing a pirate hat and drinking out of a "Mr. Goodbar" cup). She was given her English degree instead.
> 
> I sometimes wonder to what extent can colleges and universities go in withholding degrees? I don't think she posed nude or anything like that... Anyway, the woman is suing the University.
> 
> ...


 
Thing of it is, is that there really wasnt any privacy violation IMHO.  Myspace is something that anyone can log onto at any time.  I'm sure some people put some pretty personal things on there, so I'd think that if you were afraid that you may get in trouble or someone may see something that you don't want them to, its pretty simple...don't post it!  People need to start being responsible for their own actions.  

Mike


----------



## Grenadier (Apr 30, 2007)

The school is going a bit too far in denying the teaching certificate.  Someone posing in a racy photo shouldn't be disqualified as a result.  I'm sure that almost everyone has done something shameful in the past, and that such acts, no matter how small, can be twisted and manipulated by anyone, to create a smear campaign.  

In the end, she'll win her lawsuit, and the school will be forced to issue her the degree that she should have rightfully been given.  Nowhere in the Pennsylvania code, does it back what MU did.  

A bit of warning: 

Safeguard your personal life, if you don't want it to become public knowledge.  All it takes is one prankster, or one individual who may not like you, to broadcast any info of what they retrieve from you.  

Just as an example, many of y'all remember the "Simpsons" episode, where Bart took a picture of Homer dancing with a racy lady, and that the picture was widely distributed, almost ruining his life (what little he had).  Some of you may scoff at my using a fictitious cartoon as an example, but remember, with the explosion of today's internet, you're only one step away from becoming the next internet phenomenon, even if you didn't want the attention.  

This lady will be known as "The Drunken Pirate Teacher," even though she doesn't deserve that title, much like how Ghyslain Raza will forever be known as "The Star Wars Kid."


----------



## Ping898 (Apr 30, 2007)

The one thing I don't understand if how does this photo promote underage drinking??
She's legal and there is no one under the age of 21 in the photo.  How is some student of hers seeing this picture any different then them watching their folks drink?

She shouldn't be denied the degree, the job....that should be up to the individual school....

I do think in this day and age you need to be careful what you post online though...it can cost you a job...and if you plan to just be a regular average joe, or a joe in a field where positive appearances matter than you need to limit what is posted online.....


----------



## jks9199 (Apr 30, 2007)

I don't agree with denying the woman the certification she'd earned based solely on this picture.  But posting it on her MySpace was her choice...

I have to wonder what led the school to review her page; I can't imagine even a tiny school would have the time or interest to review every student's MySpace pages...  especially since many people have multiple pages.  Could she have been a borderline candidate for the teaching certificate for some other reason, like evaluations made of her during student teaching, so the school was looking to push her one way or the other?  Or could someone have had a grudge against her?

With all that said -- and as many others have said, the reality of today is that you have to accept that anything you post, anything you say or write, and anything you do might become available to prospective employers or schools.  I'll go this far, right now...  I make heavy use of MySpace in certain types of criminal investigations.


----------



## donald (Apr 30, 2007)

I don't understand how a college/university could hold back something earned? If there was a scholarship involved, and agreed upon rules were broken, then maybe. If the aformentioned was not the case. I don't see how they could legally withhold it?  In regards to the Corp./Employer privacy thing. If whats been posted is on a public access site. Then whats viewable could be seen by anyone, and used by anyone. If what is being said, or depicted has a direct effect on their employer. Then I think the poster could be in hot water.  However, if there is no direct impact to the employer's business. Then there should not be a  problem. Here in Ohio an employer can dismiss you for just about anything they wish. We are a "at will" state. This doe'nt mean the employer will be successful in say stopping Unemployment Benefits. Although if they choose to they can make collecting the benefits very difficult. Anyway those are some of my thoughts on the subjects.
1stJohn1:9


----------



## HKphooey (Apr 30, 2007)

Boy, I am just glad MySpace was not around when I went to college!!!!   Oh the pictures!!!!!!


----------



## arnisador (Apr 30, 2007)

donald said:


> I don't understand how a college/university could hold back something earned?



At many schools, the faculty and/or board must _vote_ the degrees. If you meet all the academic requirements but kill someone a week before graduation, they can simply choose not to award the degree. This almost never happens; it's usually just a formality. But, it's a reminder that one doesn't simply buy a degree program, meet the requirements, and get the diploma; the degree is _awarded_ by the college when it feels the time is right. One is graduated from college; one does not graduate from college, strictly speaking.

I know this happened where I went to grad. school, and it happens where I now teach. But it would never happen over something as trivial as this.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Apr 30, 2007)

Admitedly, I skimmed this thread, but 2 of the main arguements I saw were the privacy issue, and her choice to post it on myspace. 

I would like to know how the picture affects her ability to TEACH. So, teachers don't have a private life? They weren't allowed to make mistakes while growing up? Give me a ****ing break. The picture wasn't even offensive and I'd like to know who HASN'T had a drunken moment in the presence of friends or at a party. So...she admitted it with a caption? BIG DEAL. Try digging around the backgrounds of the people who decided to deny her the degree. Seems like folks like to hold everyone but themselves to a higher standard.


----------



## mrhnau (May 8, 2007)

The student fights back, sues for degree and damages

and well she should. I'm not a huge fan of numerous lawsuits, but this case deserves one. I hope she wins big time.


----------



## Drac (May 8, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> The student fights back, sues for degree and damages
> 
> and well she should. I'm not a huge fan of numerous lawsuits, but this case deserves one. I hope she wins big time.


 
Now if only some well known powerful attorney would take her case pro bono..


----------



## RandomPhantom700 (May 9, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> More and more, companies are using tools like Google to look for information on potential employees. It's not a matter of privacy invasion, but stupidity on the part of people. If I post stuff that indicates behavior that may not fit a companies 'culture' or mores, that's my fault. Teens post incredibly personal information on their myspace or livejournal pages, right down to addresses, phone numbers, and when no one will be home....them wonder why the house got robbed. People post pictures of themselves in 'wild-party' mode, or bragging about illegal activity like drug use then wonder why their job prospects are nil.
> 
> Folks, it's simple. Don't post anything you don't want the world to know.


 
The problem with this is that the University took the picture and used it to make an entirely out-of-context decision.  The photograph is of her drinking at a Halloween party.  What does this have to do with her qualifications as a teacher?  

This is the problem presented  MySpace is a personal profile website, for friends and family and whatnot.  Nobody posts things on a myspace website expecting colleges and employers to assess it for hiring purposes.  Facebook, perhaps, but not MySpace.  There is a personal life and a professional life, and the University here decided to take a  picture from one context and apply it to the other.  That's really unfair to her, and I think she's right to sue.


----------



## Carol (May 9, 2007)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> The problem with this is that the University took the picture and used it to make an entirely out-of-context decision.  The photograph is of her drinking at a Halloween party.  What does this have to do with her qualifications as a teacher?
> 
> This is the problem presented  MySpace is a personal profile website, for friends and family and whatnot.  Nobody posts things on a myspace website expecting colleges and employers to assess it for hiring purposes.  Facebook, perhaps, but not MySpace.  There is a personal life and a professional life, and the University here decided to take a  picture from one context and apply it to the other.  That's really unfair to her, and I think she's right to sue.



Personally I don't have an issue at all with someone forming a personal opinion about what has been broadcast on the public internet...especially first-hand information.  The woman shows herself as being drunk...it isn't hearsay "I was out with her and she was drunk."  However, I don't see this as being severe enough to be actionable. 

There is something else about this case that really bugs me.

Colleges generally don't benefit from having a student NOT graduate.  Given a choice betweeen having a senior student graduating and dropping out...the college typically would rather see them graduate.  There are many schools that will work with a student whose graduation is at risk for some reason or another.

To take such action against her smacks of some sort of political motive....as if someone had it out for her.  Something about this situation just stinks.


----------



## jks9199 (May 9, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Personally I don't have an issue at all with someone forming a personal opinion about what has been broadcast on the public internet...especially first-hand information.  The woman shows herself as being drunk...it isn't hearsay "I was out with her and she was drunk."  However, I don't see this as being severe enough to be actionable.
> 
> There is something else about this case that really bugs me.
> 
> ...


How does it show she was drunk?  I'm fairly experienced at assessing a person's level of intoxication, and I can't do it off of a picture.  OK... She says she was "drunk."  Is it arguably possible that she was simply having a good time?  Or trying to portray herself as having a good time on a social networking site?  

I'm not suggesting that the picture and caption wasn't irresponsible.  But it also isn't really enough, without other evidence, to do more than suggest that there might be some issues to look into.


----------



## Carol (May 9, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> How does it show she was drunk?  I'm fairly experienced at assessing a person's level of intoxication, and I can't do it off of a picture.  OK... She says she was "drunk."  Is it arguably possible that she was simply having a good time?  Or trying to portray herself as having a good time on a social networking site?



It's abosolutely possible, agreed.  Plus I hear that sometimes people...exaggerate a bit, shall I say, on the internet.  




> I'm not suggesting that the picture and caption wasn't irresponsible.  But it also isn't really enough, without other evidence, to do more than suggest that there might be some issues to look into.



I agree completely...which is why this case just doesn't add up, in my mind.  I just can't help but thinking something behind the scenes here is very fishy for the school to have taken such punative action.  Looks more like someone is trying to cover something up than make a point...but I could be wrong.  I think this will make for a very interesting court case.


----------

