# Keeping students in the age of Covid



## J. Pickard

How are other schools managing retention in the age of covid? We lost a lot of students and haven't gained any new ones in almost a year which has never happened before. I can't lower our rates any more without it resulting in closing our doors but many of our students are leaving because they can't afford it anymore, a few have left because they don't want to wear a mask and said they will come back when Covid is under control. Since last February we have lost over 50% of our students due to financial reasons or health concerns. Has anyone else run into similar problems? any tips on how to manage this?
Thanks. 
P.S. located in USA in the northern Midwest.


----------



## JowGaWolf

J. Pickard said:


> How are other schools managing retention in the age of covid? We lost a lot of students and haven't gained any new ones in almost a year which has never happened before. I can't lower our rates any more without it resulting in closing our doors but many of our students are leaving because they can't afford it anymore, a few have left because they don't want to wear a mask and said they will come back when Covid is under control. Since last February we have lost over 50% of our students due to financial reasons or health concerns. Has anyone else run into similar problems? any tips on how to manage this?
> Thanks.
> P.S. located in USA in the northern Midwest.


Are you doing online training sessions and review? Making students record their training and submit it?  If you don't have an online component, then you are going to have a difficult time with retaining students.  An online component will allow you to address both financial concerns and health concerns of students.  An online component means that your school has a larger reach.  The student doesn't have to live in the same area, city, or state as you.  This will allow you to tap into more students, which will allow you to lower your cost without losing total profit.  This is also a good way to retain existing students.  Welcome to "The New World"


----------



## dvcochran

J. Pickard said:


> How are other schools managing retention in the age of covid? We lost a lot of students and haven't gained any new ones in almost a year which has never happened before. I can't lower our rates any more without it resulting in closing our doors but many of our students are leaving because they can't afford it anymore, a few have left because they don't want to wear a mask and said they will come back when Covid is under control. Since last February we have lost over 50% of our students due to financial reasons or health concerns. Has anyone else run into similar problems? any tips on how to manage this?
> Thanks.
> P.S. located in USA in the northern Midwest.


May I ask what area are you in? I ask to understand the level of business restriction you are in. We have been doing modified classes since last September . No rolling and limited contact. Masks and drinking  water sources shut off. Full cleaning between classes. 
We have seen growth in adults and families. Kids are holding to slightly down. 

Just like before Covid we had supplemental video/online support. It is viable for critique of known subject matter but I do not feel it is good  for new students. Nothing worse than learning bad habits from the start. 
I think it is important for both sides (teacher & student) to understand online training is a stop gap at best. If not, more and more Brick and mortar schools will shut down and quality will continue to dwindle. 
Like many businesses it may be prudent to make a federally backed business loan to get through this. Having an honest and open meeting with your landlord (all overhead sources) is critical. Possibly they will agree to work with you on a intake percentage for a time. 
Double down on advertising; expressing safety and workout benefits. 
If you are paying yourself (which is good and normal) that may have to end for a time. 
How long have you been in business? Use your reputation as much as possible. Many schools I know have modified some classes to outside, weather permitting. 
I do not believe contraction is the answer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

J. Pickard said:


> How are other schools managing retention in the age of covid? We lost a lot of students and haven't gained any new ones in almost a year which has never happened before. I can't lower our rates any more without it resulting in closing our doors but many of our students are leaving because they can't afford it anymore, a few have left because they don't want to wear a mask and said they will come back when Covid is under control. Since last February we have lost over 50% of our students due to financial reasons or health concerns. Has anyone else run into similar problems? any tips on how to manage this?
> Thanks.
> P.S. located in USA in the northern Midwest.


Every school I'm familiar with is experiencing a similar problem. It's a realtiy. There are things you can do to help keep students in the habit and maintain the community to some extent (online classes, chat rooms, etc.), but they aren't a substitute for in-person classes. They don't create the same sense of community, and not all students will respond well to them. This unfortunately is part of the reality of where we are today.

One thing I did was switch to supporting exercises that are entirely non-contact. That means solo drills, longer warm-ups, and entire classes focused on kata (which is normally a very small part of what I teach) for a few months.

One thing to start thinking about is how you're going to manage the transition back to normal classes. This won't be a binary swap - we won't suddenly find ourselves in a COVID-free world. It will come gradually. For instance, I'll get back to actual hands-on grappling when everyone attending classes has had a full vaccination (and not before). I'm not accepting new students right now to keep classes small for safety. Once I and whoever is left are all vaccinated, I will accept new students only with proof of vaccination. That policy will stand until COVID ceases to be a health concern, which may be quite a while.

All that said, the dojo I was teaching at is closing. It wasn't ever a money-maker (labor of love for the owner), and has been losing money faster for a year, so she's closing it. Not sure where I'll be teaching next, and will probably only take one student with me. So I'll be starting over again.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Just like before Covid we had supplemental video/online support. It is viable for critique of known subject matter but I do not feel it is good for new students. Nothing worse than learning bad habits from the start.


This is why martial arts teachers often make bad business managers.  While it's true that it's not the idea learning medium, some students may be ok with that.  They may prefer "something better than nothing." and in reality as a martial arts school instructor you should let the student determine the value of what you teach you teach.  Just be up front about how online training has limitation.

1. not all people want to learn to fight.
2. some people take martial arts for exercise and really don't care if they are perfect with their kata or forms
3. some people find value in learning from a quality instructor, and being accepted as their student even if it's online.  Here's an example.  What do you think people would do if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime and he stated that he was going to teach an online class and share his knowledge.  Do you really think people would pass up the opportunity to have their video reviewed and personally corrected by Bruce Lee.  There would be more to take that opportunity than to reject it.
4. Not everyone who trains in person will be good.  Not everyone who trains in online (with interactive instruction between teacher in student). How many times has someone posted a video here asked for review, and we gave it our thoughts.  Then think of how that person returned after taking the advice and actually improved.

Again I'm not saying it's the best way to learn. I get it.  But when that person improves because of the advice that was given online, then that supports the value of interactive instruction online.  If the student wants to learn to fight, then that requires sparring.  No way of getting around it.  But if someone in London wants to learn something that doesn't exist in their area, then something is better than nothing.  So long as they understand the limitations of the instruction.  From that the student can then determine if the school is worth paying for online classes.

Martial Arts schools and teachers often shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to business decisions.  If you have a martial arts school then you are going to be given 2 choices.
1. Make the business decision that will allow you to keep your school open and income flowing in
2. Don't adapt to the current business environment. Shut your doors, then try to start over when things get better.

That's the business reality.  From a personal perspective.  Do what you can to keep the students you have and then adapt.

Article from Crazy 88 that produces world class fighters
"Maryland shut down gyms on March 16, 2020. We were able to pivot quickly to online classes for different martial arts styles. The attendance has been consistent, but only a fraction of what we would normally get in our live classes. We also came across some challenges with the online classes. For example, our Tiny Ninjas (3-5 years old) online class is tough to run virtually. Despite the high number of membership freezes, we were fortunate enough to continue paying our full-time employees. Our clients have actually been really awesome; most are choosing to just freeze their memberships rather than outright cancel and the majority are continuing to support us throughout this challenging time (we’ll be providing the shutdown time back at no additional charge)."
source: https://www.moyabrand.com/blog/crazy-88-owner-julius-park-talks-covid19-x-bjj-in-the-state-of-maryland/#

Will it online classes be hard. Yep. Most definitely, unless you can find that secret mix that works.  Either way Make the best business decisions and allow customers to determine if they want learn online from you.  Don't make that decision for them

Remember "People will buy crap so long as you tell them that's what it is."  Be honest and don't promise miracles


----------



## isshinryuronin

JowGaWolf said:


> Making students record their training and submit it



Good idea.  Keep the students proactive and involved.



dvcochran said:


> not feel it is good for new students. Nothing worse than learning bad habits from the start.  I think it is important for both sides (teacher & student) to understand online training is a stop gap at best



Agree.



gpseymour said:


> They don't create the same sense of community



I feel this is one of the most important elements to foster in a dojo.  It develops a sense of belonging, so important, especially for school age students.  They should see the dojo as their "gang" and their "go to" place, a home away from home.  Not easy to develop as some skills are needed to build this, but worth the effort.



dvcochran said:


> meeting with your landlord (all overhead sources) is critical. Possibly they will agree to work with you on a intake percentage for a time.



How about barter?  Offer them, their family members or friends free lessons.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

isshinryuronin said:


> I feel this is one of the most important elements to foster in a dojo. It develops a sense of belonging, so important, especially for school age students. They should see the dojo as their "gang" and their "go to" place, a home away from home. Not easy to develop as some skills are needed to build this, but worth the effort.


To be clear, in-person classes don’t do this automatically. The atmosphere in the school and events outside classes matter a lot. I only had a few training partners I felt like this about.


----------



## Buka

isshinryuronin said:


> I feel this is one of the most important elements to foster in a dojo.  It develops a sense of belonging, so important, especially for school age students.  They should see the dojo as their "gang" and their "go to" place, a home away from home.  Not easy to develop as some skills are needed to build this, but worth the effort.



Solid gold, right there.

As for retaining students during this most unusual, crazy time, I've been in touch with a handful of dojo owners over the last ten months. Unfortunately, every single one of their experiences have been completely different, both in their numbers and in what their specific locale has dictated by the officials who preside over their area.

There's a great deal of frustration among dojo owners right now. I wish there were answers, but again, every case is different. So different.

He heart and prayers go out to every student, every teacher/trainer/coach,Sensei etc. And especially to all that run or own a dojo.

One thing _might_ be for sure. There's probably/hopefully never going to be a more trying time than what we're experiencing right now. 

May everyone have the luck, patience and resources to keep going.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Buka said:


> May everyone have the luck, patience and resources to keep going.


As bad as it is, business will always find a way.  I don't worry about it as much because I know that everyone is experiencing the same thing.  It puts everyone in the same operating environment, some things will work and some won't.  People will have to change.

A lot of home fitness equipment is going online interactive and that's probably here to stay.   You'll have those who can train at home get the job done and move to the next thing.   Then you have those who need to be around others.   You'll see those people again when there is better control of Covid-19 and the different strains. Small restaurants will survive and many of them will start implementing an online order /pickup and delivery function.   Same with stores.  Walmart is ahead of that game even before Covid-19.

The biggest issue that I'm worried about is where people train. For me it's all about how much money do my customers have and do they have enough disposable money to pay for my service.  The pandemic took out a lot of jobs so people don't have money like they used to.  This is going to be the biggest challenge.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> This is why martial arts teachers often make bad business managers.  While it's true that it's not the idea learning medium, some students may be ok with that.  They may prefer "something better than nothing." and in reality as a martial arts school instructor you should let the student determine the value of what you teach you teach.  Just be up front about how online training has limitation.
> 
> 1. not all people want to learn to fight.
> 2. some people take martial arts for exercise and really don't care if they are perfect with their kata or forms
> 3. some people find value in learning from a quality instructor, and being accepted as their student even if it's online.  Here's an example.  What do you think people would do if Bruce Lee was alive and in his prime and he stated that he was going to teach an online class and share his knowledge.  Do you really think people would pass up the opportunity to have their video reviewed and personally corrected by Bruce Lee.  There would be more to take that opportunity than to reject it.
> 4. Not everyone who trains in person will be good.  Not everyone who trains in online (with interactive instruction between teacher in student). How many times has someone posted a video here asked for review, and we gave it our thoughts.  Then think of how that person returned after taking the advice and actually improved.
> 
> Again I'm not saying it's the best way to learn. I get it.  But when that person improves because of the advice that was given online, then that supports the value of interactive instruction online.  If the student wants to learn to fight, then that requires sparring.  No way of getting around it.  But if someone in London wants to learn something that doesn't exist in their area, then something is better than nothing.  So long as they understand the limitations of the instruction.  From that the student can then determine if the school is worth paying for online classes.
> 
> Martial Arts schools and teachers often shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to business decisions.  If you have a martial arts school then you are going to be given 2 choices.
> 1. Make the business decision that will allow you to keep your school open and income flowing in
> 2. Don't adapt to the current business environment. Shut your doors, then try to start over when things get better.
> 
> That's the business reality.  From a personal perspective.  Do what you can to keep the students you have and then adapt.
> 
> Article from Crazy 88 that produces world class fighters
> "Maryland shut down gyms on March 16, 2020. We were able to pivot quickly to online classes for different martial arts styles. The attendance has been consistent, but only a fraction of what we would normally get in our live classes. We also came across some challenges with the online classes. For example, our Tiny Ninjas (3-5 years old) online class is tough to run virtually. Despite the high number of membership freezes, we were fortunate enough to continue paying our full-time employees. Our clients have actually been really awesome; most are choosing to just freeze their memberships rather than outright cancel and the majority are continuing to support us throughout this challenging time (we’ll be providing the shutdown time back at no additional charge)."
> source: https://www.moyabrand.com/blog/crazy-88-owner-julius-park-talks-covid19-x-bjj-in-the-state-of-maryland/#
> 
> Will it online classes be hard. Yep. Most definitely, unless you can find that secret mix that works.  Either way Make the best business decisions and allow customers to determine if they want learn online from you.  Don't make that decision for them
> 
> Remember "People will buy crap so long as you tell them that's what it is."  Be honest and don't promise miracles


Since this was in response to my post I will just say I disagree with some but not all you have said. Particularly the “something is better than nothing” comment. This has caused so much grief for martial arts at large. It is very disappointing to hear a fellow school owner state this frame of mind.


----------



## Danny T

There are a lot of components to consider. As where you are located and the culture toward training at this time and the challenges of covid. I closed for the original 2 weeks last year in the guise of "lowering the curve". Started training again and have been doing regular classes since. I am fortunate in that presently all of my classes are full and I have a waiting list for new members. I also do 2 virtual classes a week. Am doing a Pekiti-Tirsia Camp this weekend.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Since this was in response to my post I will just say I disagree with some but not all you have said. Particularly the “something is better than nothing” comment. This has caused so much grief for martial arts at large. It is very disappointing to hear a fellow school owner state this frame of mind.


"Something is better than nothing" and how it's applied

If you are a student who takes martial arts only for health, then *something is better than nothing*
If you are a student who takes a martial arts in order to learn a form but really aren't interested in fighting, then *something is better than nothing*. 

There are people who have in person training that suck at form even though they show up in person. Are you going to kick them out of your school because they suck and only come once a week?  Of course not *because some money is better than no money, because no money means your school closes.  You lose and your students lose.*
If you are a student who in interested in taking a martial arts once the pandemic is over, then "*some interaction with your school is better than no interaction with your school*" So I'm willing to build relationships with people who are interested enough to learn martial arts online in hopes that they will enjoy the only teaching (although limited) that they will choose the same martial arts system when Covid is under control. They don't have to guess what they want to take because they have already had some interaction with the system I train, which *some familiarity with a system is better than no familiarity when trying to pick a system to train in*.
If you want to market your school, your ability, your system.  Then online classes during a pandemic and large job loss is a good and inexpensive way to market what you do.  Because preparation now for when in-person training can resume is better now than trying to play catch up for when that time comes.  At least now you can start grooming potential in person students.* Some preparation now is better than no preparation at all*.
The only 2 things I can think of where 'Some is better than none is with kids"  Especially if your the parents use your school to give themselves a break from the kids.  Online classes won't cut it, because it doesn't accomplish the goal that the parent has which is to get a break from their child.

The other thing where "Some is better than none " doesn't apply is with fighting.  There's only one way to learn how to fight and that's through sparring.  There's no virtual way to develop those skills. 

So train people as far as you can until they can take advantage of in person training.   Some water is better than no water.  Some training is better than no training.  The only thing the school needs to be up front with is that there is a limit on how much they will be able to learn.  Be honest about that and they will be happy with you and your honesty.

It's real simple.  As a business if you don't adapt then your school won't make it through Covid or any other challenge.  But it's your choice.  You'll get to decide if "*Some students is better than No Students*"


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> "Something is better than nothing" and how it's applied
> 
> If you are a student who takes martial arts only for health, then *something is better than nothing*
> If you are a student who takes a martial arts in order to learn a form but really aren't interested in fighting, then *something is better than nothing*.
> 
> There are people who have in person training that suck at form even though they show up in person. Are you going to kick them out of your school because they suck and only come once a week?  Of course not *because some money is better than no money, because no money means your school closes.  You lose and your students lose.*
> If you are a student who in interested in taking a martial arts once the pandemic is over, then "*some interaction with your school is better than no interaction with your school*" So I'm willing to build relationships with people who are interested enough to learn martial arts online in hopes that they will enjoy the only teaching (although limited) that they will choose the same martial arts system when Covid is under control. They don't have to guess what they want to take because they have already had some interaction with the system I train, which *some familiarity with a system is better than no familiarity when trying to pick a system to train in*.
> If you want to market your school, your ability, your system.  Then online classes during a pandemic and large job loss is a good and inexpensive way to market what you do.  Because preparation now for when in-person training can resume is better now than trying to play catch up for when that time comes.  At least now you can start grooming potential in person students.* Some preparation now is better than no preparation at all*.
> The only 2 things I can think of where 'Some is better than none is with kids"  Especially if your the parents use your school to give themselves a break from the kids.  Online classes won't cut it, because it doesn't accomplish the goal that the parent has which is to get a break from their child.
> 
> The other thing where "Some is better than none " doesn't apply is with fighting.  There's only one way to learn how to fight and that's through sparring.  There's no virtual way to develop those skills.
> 
> So train people as far as you can until they can take advantage of in person training.   Some water is better than no water.  Some training is better than no training.  The only thing the school needs to be up front with is that there is a limit on how much they will be able to learn.  Be honest about that and they will be happy with you and your honesty.
> 
> It's real simple.  As a business if you don't adapt then your school won't make it through Covid or any other challenge.  But it's your choice.  You'll get to decide if "*Some students is better than No Students*"



You seem to be coming off as a business expert even though you have yet to offer any concrete, viable advise to the OP. 
Context is everything in business, especially a service business that should be as transparent as possible. What you are saying in bold is true but completely out of context in any way remotely productive or effective. It sounds more like the little kid in gym class who does what is required but hates it the whole time so he sucks at it. That is Not better than nothing. 

By in large, there are three types of people who take martial arts; people who have done the research and really want to learn a craft, people who think "this will be fun", and people who see it as a good form of exercise. Of course there are other motives (such as kids being dropped off but this overlaps into exercise) but theses are the big ones. 
In the gross format of classes there are no adjustments made to accommodate any one category. In other words, everyone does the same material. Even our disabled people are held to this standard. However, a good instructor is going to know how/when to adjust their 'push' for a person or adjust things from each subset. This is the Instructors job, not the students. Martial arts training is Not vanilla across the board. Else it would only produce lemmings and would have died out a long time ago. 

And then you contradict yourself by acknowledge that vital aspects of training cannot be done virtually. So at that point you can not promoting MA's training virtually but instead promoting an aerobics class or exercise program. This make you come off sounding like a vacuum cleaner or con artist salesman rather than a quality, committed martial arts instructor. 

At least in TN, we have had to fight hard to keep our MA businesses recognized as an avenue of higher learning, like a business school or college. It alleviates certain tax structures paid by and charged by the business. Crap like you are pushing will escort the privilege and honor of things like this right out the door. 

FWIW, our 2020 financials were very off the 3 months, then gradually recovered back to normal; better than the norm in certain categories and have continued to trend this way. 
Like I said, I understand some of it is predicated on what a schools local and state restrictions are. We are very fortunate that we never had a state mask mandate but have always followed local and federal requirements. 

I hope the OP gets back to this thread and updates on where they are and what they are doing. Then we can all give better advise or suggestions.


----------



## dvcochran

Danny T said:


> There are a lot of components to consider. As where you are located and the culture toward training at this time and the challenges of covid. I closed for the original 2 weeks last year in the guise of "lowering the curve". Started training again and have been doing regular classes since. I am fortunate in that presently all of my classes are full and I have a waiting list for new members. I also do 2 virtual classes a week. Am doing a Pekiti-Tirsia Camp this weekend.


Danny, do you just set up a camera and Zoom the classes or are they interactive?


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You seem to be coming off as a business expert even though you have yet to offer any concrete, viable advise to the OP.
> Context is everything in business, especially a service business that should be as transparent as possible. What you are saying in bold is true but completely out of context in any way remotely productive or effective. It sounds more like the little kid in gym class who does what is required but hates it the whole time so he sucks at it. That is Not better than nothing.
> 
> By in large, there are three types of people who take martial arts; people who have done the research and really want to learn a craft, people who think "this will be fun", and people who see it as a good form of exercise. Of course there are other motives (such as kids being dropped off but this overlaps into exercise) but theses are the big ones.
> In the gross format of classes there are no adjustments made to accommodate any one category. In other words, everyone does the same material. Even our disabled people are held to this standard. However, a good instructor is going to know how/when to adjust their 'push' for a person or adjust things from each subset. This is the Instructors job, not the students. Martial arts training is Not vanilla across the board. Else it would only produce lemmings and would have died out a long time ago.
> 
> And then you contradict yourself by acknowledge that vital aspects of training cannot be done virtually. So at that point you can not promoting MA's training virtually but instead promoting an aerobics class or exercise program. This make you come off sounding like a vacuum cleaner or con artist salesman rather than a quality, committed martial arts instructor.
> 
> At least in TN, we have had to fight hard to keep our MA businesses recognized as an avenue of higher learning, like a business school or college. It alleviates certain tax structures paid by and charged by the business. Crap like you are pushing will escort the privilege and honor of things like this right out the door.
> 
> FWIW, our 2020 financials were very off the 3 months, then gradually recovered back to normal; better than the norm in certain categories and have continued to trend this way.
> Like I said, I understand some of it is predicated on what a schools local and state restrictions are. We are very fortunate that we never had a state mask mandate but have always followed local and federal requirements.
> 
> I hope the OP gets back to this thread and updates on where they are and what they are doing. Then we can all give better advise or suggestions.


I didn't contradict myself. I was specific. That learning how to fight can't be done virtually. Training martial arts has 2 main components.  Learning the Techniques and applying the techniques. With striking on can learn numerous techniques without a partner.  But with learning to apply techniques you need to spar.  But the current environment doesn't allow sparring safely. So until then you just train technique.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You seem to be coming off as a business expert even though you have yet to offer any concrete, viable advise to the OP.
> Context is everything in business, especially a service business that should be as transparent as possible. What you are saying in bold is true but completely out of context in any way remotely productive or effective. It sounds more like the little kid in gym class who does what is required but hates it the whole time so he sucks at it. That is Not better than nothing.
> 
> By in large, there are three types of people who take martial arts; people who have done the research and really want to learn a craft, people who think "this will be fun", and people who see it as a good form of exercise. Of course there are other motives (such as kids being dropped off but this overlaps into exercise) but theses are the big ones.
> In the gross format of classes there are no adjustments made to accommodate any one category. In other words, everyone does the same material. Even our disabled people are held to this standard. However, a good instructor is going to know how/when to adjust their 'push' for a person or adjust things from each subset. This is the Instructors job, not the students. Martial arts training is Not vanilla across the board. Else it would only produce lemmings and would have died out a long time ago.
> 
> And then you contradict yourself by acknowledge that vital aspects of training cannot be done virtually. So at that point you can not promoting MA's training virtually but instead promoting an aerobics class or exercise program. This make you come off sounding like a vacuum cleaner or con artist salesman rather than a quality, committed martial arts instructor.
> 
> At least in TN, we have had to fight hard to keep our MA businesses recognized as an avenue of higher learning, like a business school or college. It alleviates certain tax structures paid by and charged by the business. Crap like you are pushing will escort the privilege and honor of things like this right out the door.
> 
> FWIW, our 2020 financials were very off the 3 months, then gradually recovered back to normal; better than the norm in certain categories and have continued to trend this way.
> Like I said, I understand some of it is predicated on what a schools local and state restrictions are. We are very fortunate that we never had a state mask mandate but have always followed local and federal requirements.
> 
> I hope the OP gets back to this thread and updates on where they are and what they are doing. Then we can all give better advise or suggestions.


If you include cardio drills with kicks and punches then you are training technique and building cardio.  Is that not exercise?

If you train strength building and conditioning so that the techniques will be stronger, then isn't that exercise?  Do you need to learn how to fight to do these things?  NO.  Do you need sparring for these things? NO? Can you learn the things virtually? Yes.  

Can you learn how to fight virtually? NO.  Learning martial techniques is not the same as learning how to fight with the techniques.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You seem to be coming off as a business expert even though you have yet to offer any concrete, viable advise to the OP.


My experience in terms of business is that I went to school for it, studied marketing and economics.  I then applied it in the real world by doing accomplishing tasks and goals that other business professionals had a hard time doing.  I created and marketed youth programs  and education programs for the largested County in Georgia.  When I was teaching martial arts my main responsibility was to teach students how to fight using kung fu.  I also was responsible for the school finances, marketing, community out reach,  and website design.  I helped take the school from 3 students to 20 students and I didn't spend a dime to do it. School made enough to support itself.  I also design websites for small business and have been able to get them top 10 search results as long as they followed the plan that was created for them.....I may not be the top business person but I know how to get people in the door.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> To be clear, in-person classes don’t do this automatically. The atmosphere in the school and events outside classes matter a lot. I only had a few training partners I felt like this about.


I’ve definitely belonged to some schools that had a strong community feeling, but even with those I ended with very few long lasting and close friendships.  

As a teenager in my first school, it was small and very few students.  I had one friend who trained with me in the school briefly, otherwise I did not have close friendships with the other students.  I guess I’ve always been kind of a non-joiner, a bit of a lone wolf I guess.  That’s just me.  But I was there to learn something, and any friendships that grew from it were a bonus.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> As bad as it is, business will always find a way.  I don't worry about it as much because I know that everyone is experiencing the same thing.  It puts everyone in the same operating environment, some things will work and some won't.  People will have to change.
> 
> A lot of home fitness equipment is going online interactive and that's probably here to stay.   You'll have those who can train at home get the job done and move to the next thing.   Then you have those who need to be around others.   You'll see those people again when there is better control of Covid-19 and the different strains. Small restaurants will survive and many of them will start implementing an online order /pickup and delivery function.   Same with stores.  Walmart is ahead of that game even before Covid-19.
> 
> The biggest issue that I'm worried about is where people train. For me it's all about how much money do my customers have and do they have enough disposable money to pay for my service.  The pandemic took out a lot of jobs so people don't have money like they used to.  This is going to be the biggest challenge.


With all due respect, online martial arts training is pretty worthless. Unless the student and teacher are both streaming at 100+ fps you won't see any subtleties. At that point you might as well try to learn from youtube.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> With all due respect, online martial arts training is pretty worthless. Unless the student and teacher are both streaming at 100+ fps you won't see any subtleties. At that point you might as well try to learn from youtube.


I think there’s more value than that in some situations. Certainly where there’s some experience for the student, there’s room for input, and 100 FPS isn’t necessary unless you’re trying to view full-speed movement.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Unless the student and teacher are both streaming at 100+ fps you won't see any subtleties.


Is that all that you are worried about?  That's an easy fix.  Not even close to a game-ender.  Your biggest challenge isn't going to be camera



gpseymour said:


> I think there’s more value than that in some situations. Certainly where there’s some experience for the student, there’s room for input, and 100 FPS isn’t necessary unless you’re trying to view full-speed movement.


  I've only found it helpful when I want to play things back at a slower speed.  Things like sparring.  Most smart phones do 60fps and higher easily.  Then there's the question of how much a person is capable of seeing in person. There's a limit to how much we can see in fps. If you can't see 100fps in person with your own eyes, then it doesn't matter if a camera sees 100fps or higher unless you are trying to see things in slow motion.





The only reason I ever wanted a camera with high FPS is because I wanted film something in slow motion without creating blurs when played in slow motion.  But that's not an option with my own eyes.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I think there’s more value than that in some situations. Certainly where there’s some experience for the student, there’s room for input, and 100 FPS isn’t necessary unless you’re trying to view full-speed movement.


The videos of me sparring were shot with an SG4 (2013 phone camera tech).  This means that todays camera video and webcam quality won't be worse than that unless the Internet connection is really bad.


----------



## WaterGal

J. Pickard said:


> How are other schools managing retention in the age of covid? We lost a lot of students and haven't gained any new ones in almost a year which has never happened before. I can't lower our rates any more without it resulting in closing our doors but many of our students are leaving because they can't afford it anymore, a few have left because they don't want to wear a mask and said they will come back when Covid is under control. Since last February we have lost over 50% of our students due to financial reasons or health concerns. Has anyone else run into similar problems? any tips on how to manage this?
> Thanks.
> P.S. located in USA in the northern Midwest.



That's rough. We lost about 40% of our students in the first few months of covid, and have had some more quit since, but we've had enough growth since then that we're "only" down about 25% over where we were a year ago.

Are you offering Zoom classes for students who aren't comfortable coming in? That's been a big help for us. Yeah, it's not the same as in-person classes, since they can usually only work with somebody who lives with them, if they even have that. But it's better than nothing. It lets the students get some practice in, and it offers them a social outlet and sense of normality. (It also means that we have a bunch of parents that have been training with their kids for free for a while and are clearly enjoying themselves, and I think that at least some of them will sign up as regular students once they get the vaccine. Edit: we've also had a couple kids sign up after watching their parent take class over Zoom from home!)

If your students genuinely can't afford it anymore because they got laid off or whatever.... that's a harder hurdle. Around here, there's a pretty big medical manufacturing/biotech sector and a lot of teachers, nurses, first responders, IT workers, etc, so the economy hasn't taken as big of a hit as in some places.


----------



## JowGaWolf

WaterGal said:


> If your students genuinely can't afford it anymore because they got laid off or whatever.... that's a harder hurdle.


Once a job is lost, a person will cancel anything that isn't necessary.  I've been through 2 lay offs and it was always the same. response, spend less money, look for work, stop subscription and membership services.  Oh and no unnecessary traveling in the car.  Not much can be done about those situations except wish them the best and tell them to keep in touch.

There's nothing fun about no job and no money. An online component may be standard for everyone, even for barber shops. (making appointments online).  I'm pretty sure martial arts will go the same way.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Once a job is lost, a person will cancel anything that isn't necessary.  I've been through 2 lay offs and it was always the same. response, spend less money, look for work, stop subscription and membership services.  Oh and no unnecessary traveling in the car.  Not much can be done about those situations except wish them the best and tell them to keep in touch.
> 
> There's nothing fun about no job and no money. An online component may be standard for everyone, even for barber shops. (making appointments online).  I'm pretty sure martial arts will go the same way.


Okay, outside of purchasing consumables please explain how an online barber shop will work? 
The true barber shops (not beauty salon's) around here have little to no consumable sales.


----------



## dvcochran

WaterGal said:


> That's rough. We lost about 40% of our students in the first few months of covid, and have had some more quit since, but we've had enough growth since then that we're "only" down about 25% over where we were a year ago.
> 
> Are you offering Zoom classes for students who aren't comfortable coming in? That's been a big help for us. Yeah, it's not the same as in-person classes, since they can usually only work with somebody who lives with them, if they even have that. But it's better than nothing. It lets the students get some practice in, and it offers them a social outlet and sense of normality. (It also means that we have a bunch of parents that have been training with their kids for free for a while and are clearly enjoying themselves, and I think that at least some of them will sign up as regular students once they get the vaccine. Edit: we've also had a couple kids sign up after watching their parent take class over Zoom from home!)
> 
> If your students genuinely can't afford it anymore because they got laid off or whatever.... that's a harder hurdle. Around here, there's a pretty big medical manufacturing/biotech sector and a lot of teachers, nurses, first responders, IT workers, etc, so the economy hasn't taken as big of a hit as in some places.


Are most of your students set up on EBT? I see this working with Zoom classes from a financial standpoint. 
It gets tenuous sometimes but there are certain students who more than pay for themselves just with their presence. You have to really, really be careful with the relationship. I can only think of one or two actual issues I ever had with folks like that. They just are not going to take advantage of the relationship. And man oh man do they make classes better.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Okay, outside of purchasing consumables please explain how an online barber shop will work?
> The true barber shops (not beauty salon's) around here have little to no consumable sales.


How online barbershops work. 
Barber Appointment App, Scheduling & Reminders Software - FREE Trial!

Atlanta Barber | Cumming Barber Shop | Roswell Hair Salon | Alpharetta Haircut | Milton | Woodstock | American Barbers

https://www.csbarbershop.com/single-post/2017/04/05/book-online-at-chuck-simons-barbershop

This is not a new concept.  Many of the larger barbershop chains have been online for a while now. 



dvcochran said:


> The true barber shops (not beauty salon's) around here have little to no consumable sales.


All the poor barbers only cut hair.  The one who are out to make a lot of money will sell hair and skin products as well.  Having more than one service or product generating sales is a must.

This is a True Barbershop.  That shelf on the left contains hair care products that a customer can use.  By having an online component, a barber will still have the opportunity to do business with their customers, even if their customers aren't close enough to come in for a hair cut.  Things like moving out of the area means that a person is less likely to continue to get their hair cut at that location.  This means the barber loses a customer.  Automating booking so that you can get more people in without everyone coming in at the same time makes sense, saves time and makes the entire experience a better one.   It is also scalable for when you have those days a barber can't make it in.







#6 on running a successful barber shop
Build a website for your barber shop and collect basic customer data, including email addresses. Send out a newsletter to your costumers once every few weeks with informative beauty tips and valuable coupons. This will draw customers back to your shop, while giving them the sense that they are truly getting their money's worth.

There are tones of barber organizations and websites that talk about the value of selling additional products inside a barbershop.  So even if you cannot physically open up shop you can still sell products. 24/7 online to customers who trust you.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> The true barber shops (not beauty salon's) around here have little to no consumable sales.


If they were to just think outside the box a little, they would be able to sell products, not only sale products but generate business deals with companies that sell hair care products and other related products.  Set up a nice display tv in a barbershop and run ad space for these companies and their products.  Have a website?  Do the same thing?

Not having consumables for sales is a choice.  Barbers choose to do or they don't.  When I was a teen the barber used to sell a lot of stuff  in their barbershop.  One year I went and they were trying to sell direct TV services. While that's not what I would go for today.  It was when Satellite TV was hot.  Sometimes people would walk in trying to sell jewelry and gold chains. lol.   My point is if there is a worth while opportunity to generate additional income then a business should take it.  A business should also take into consideration about how that money comes in.  Does it only come in when people come in or can you generate income in other ways, other than just when people show up..


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> How online barbershops work.
> Barber Appointment App, Scheduling & Reminders Software - FREE Trial!
> 
> Atlanta Barber | Cumming Barber Shop | Roswell Hair Salon | Alpharetta Haircut | Milton | Woodstock | American Barbers
> 
> https://www.csbarbershop.com/single-post/2017/04/05/book-online-at-chuck-simons-barbershop
> 
> This is not a new concept.  Many of the larger barbershop chains have been online for a while now.
> 
> 
> All the poor barbers only cut hair.  The one who are out to make a lot of money will sell hair and skin products as well.  Having more than one service or product generating sales is a must.
> 
> This is a True Barbershop.  That shelf on the left contains hair care products that a customer can use.  By having an online component, a barber will still have the opportunity to do business with their customers, even if their customers aren't close enough to come in for a hair cut.  Things like moving out of the area means that a person is less likely to continue to get their hair cut at that location.  This means the barber loses a customer.  Automating booking so that you can get more people in without everyone coming in at the same time makes sense, saves time and makes the entire experience a better one.   It is also scalable for when you have those days a barber can't make it in.
> 
> 
> View attachment 23676
> 
> #6 on running a successful barber shop
> Build a website for your barber shop and collect basic customer data, including email addresses. Send out a newsletter to your costumers once every few weeks with informative beauty tips and valuable coupons. This will draw customers back to your shop, while giving them the sense that they are truly getting their money's worth.
> 
> There are tones of barber organizations and websites that talk about the value of selling additional products inside a barbershop.  So even if you cannot physically open up shop you can still sell products. 24/7 online to customers who trust you.


Making online appointments could not be farther from an 'online barbershop'. There is still a physical brick and mortar presence that requires a person to go to the location to get service. 

That is one example of a hair salon, not a 'true barbershop', at least not in the southeast US.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Making online appointments could not be farther from an 'online barbershop'.


It's not farther, it's just that you have a narrow scope of what makes something online.  Here's an example.

Ordering food online.  When you order a pizza online you are still ordering a pizza online. You choose what pizza you want online, you order online, and you have the option to pay online.  Just because the pizza isn't made online does not make it an online business.  A business doesn't have to be completely online in order to be considered as online.  It only needs to have an Online function.  This is not an "Either Or" issue where you have to be 100% online or 100% offline.

Even places without physical stores still have physical components of business such as shipping, manufacturing, and distribution.  For example, NETFLIX still ships DVDs.  A physical component that requires shipping and distribution.  DVD's may seem out dated, but you can't see a lot of the newer movies unless it's on DVD.  That won't change until DVD become obsolete.

If you reduce everything to "Either, Or" then you'll limit you limit yourself and the opportunities that exist.  So, while people are able to keep their martial arts schools open by using Online functions, You will be going out of business because you feel that things have to be "Either, Or"



dvcochran said:


> That is one example of a hair salon, not a 'true barbershop', at least not in the southeast US.


Again.  putting things into an "Either, Or" box.
"Hair Salon are not a "True barbershop."

Lets see what's professionally recognized as a barbershop.

*Barber Schools and License Requirements in Georgia*
Georgia | American Barber Association

Your initial step toward a Georgia barber license is to graduate from a Georgia barber college. The Georgia State Board of Barbers requires that your school provide at least 1500 hours of specialized training. Board-required courses include the following:

Theory (280 hours)

Theory – 50 hours
Hair and Scalp Treatments – 25 hours
Hairstyling Techniques, Styling and Cutting – 70 hours
Shaving – 25 hours
Coloring of Hair – 25 hours
Facial Hair Design and Waxing – 20 hours
Permanent Waving, Relaxing, and Chemical Application – 65 hours
Clinical Services (1220 hours)

Theory – 200 hours
Hairstyling Techniques and Cutting – 500 hours
Shaving – 25 hours
Shampooing – 5 hours
Facial Hair Design and Waxing – 10 hours
Scalp Treatment Techniques – 10 hours
Permanent Waving – 270 hours
Additional Instruction – 200 hours

Top Ten Tips to Make Six Figures as a Barber ( I put this here because it applies to Martial arts)
Ten Tips to Make Six Figures as a Barber

*Tip# 1 Don’t Underestimate Yourself (this is you)
Tip# 7 Stop Looking Down on Retail (this is you)*
"For some reason, barbers *tend to think selling retail products is some kind of cop-out*—like you stop being a barber and start becoming a pushy salesman just because you try to get a client to invest in some styling gel.

You know, we get it to some extent, but if you want to make some passive-style income, you need to stop thinking of retail as a no-go and start thinking of it as a promising opportunity. "
*Tip# 8 Step Out Of Your Comfort Zone (this is you)*
"*This is solid advice in anything you do in life*, but we especially think it’s useful when it comes to barbering. Your trade is amazing because it is fluid—nothing is stagnant and though some things never go out of style, rarely do things stay the same. 

*If you’re too scared to step out of your normal services, trends, and specialties, you could be missing out on some serious opportunities*. Stop being afraid to offer services that cater to new fads, to try new things, to think outside the box."

*Tip# 9 Work Smarter, Not MORE (this is you)*
You don’t have to work yourself to the bone every single day, every moment you’re awake to make the money you want—you just need to work smarter.

Salons are often ran by women who maximize their income opportunity, while small barbers will often pass up opportunities to maximize theirs.  If you can only see things as "Either , Or" then you'll limit opportunities that could make things easier for you.   Similar to how restaurants that had existing carryout and online functions weren't hit as hard as those who only hand in-person dining."


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not farther, it's just that you have a narrow scope of what makes something online.  Here's an example.
> 
> Ordering food online.  When you order a pizza online you are still ordering a pizza online. You choose what pizza you want online, you order online, and you have the option to pay online.  Just because the pizza isn't made online does not make it an online business.  A business doesn't have to be completely online in order to be considered as online.  It only needs to have an Online function.  This is not an "Either Or" issue where you have to be 100% online or 100% offline.
> 
> Even places without physical stores still have physical components of business such as shipping, manufacturing, and distribution.  For example, NETFLIX still ships DVDs.  A physical component that requires shipping and distribution.  DVD's may seem out dated, but you can't see a lot of the newer movies unless it's on DVD.  That won't change until DVD become obsolete.
> 
> If you reduce everything to "Either, Or" then you'll limit you limit yourself and the opportunities that exist.  So, while people are able to keep their martial arts schools open by using Online functions, You will be going out of business because you feel that things have to be "Either, Or"
> 
> 
> Again.  putting things into an "Either, Or" box.
> "Hair Salon are not a "True barbershop."
> 
> Lets see what's professionally recognized as a barbershop.
> 
> *Barber Schools and License Requirements in Georgia*
> Georgia | American Barber Association
> 
> Your initial step toward a Georgia barber license is to graduate from a Georgia barber college. The Georgia State Board of Barbers requires that your school provide at least 1500 hours of specialized training. Board-required courses include the following:
> 
> Theory (280 hours)
> 
> Theory – 50 hours
> Hair and Scalp Treatments – 25 hours
> Hairstyling Techniques, Styling and Cutting – 70 hours
> Shaving – 25 hours
> Coloring of Hair – 25 hours
> Facial Hair Design and Waxing – 20 hours
> Permanent Waving, Relaxing, and Chemical Application – 65 hours
> Clinical Services (1220 hours)
> 
> Theory – 200 hours
> Hairstyling Techniques and Cutting – 500 hours
> Shaving – 25 hours
> Shampooing – 5 hours
> Facial Hair Design and Waxing – 10 hours
> Scalp Treatment Techniques – 10 hours
> Permanent Waving – 270 hours
> Additional Instruction – 200 hours
> 
> Top Ten Tips to Make Six Figures as a Barber ( I put this here because it applies to Martial arts)
> Ten Tips to Make Six Figures as a Barber
> 
> *Tip# 1 Don’t Underestimate Yourself (this is you)
> Tip# 7 Stop Looking Down on Retail (this is you)*
> "For some reason, barbers *tend to think selling retail products is some kind of cop-out*—like you stop being a barber and start becoming a pushy salesman just because you try to get a client to invest in some styling gel.
> 
> You know, we get it to some extent, but if you want to make some passive-style income, you need to stop thinking of retail as a no-go and start thinking of it as a promising opportunity. "
> *Tip# 8 Step Out Of Your Comfort Zone (this is you)*
> "*This is solid advice in anything you do in life*, but we especially think it’s useful when it comes to barbering. Your trade is amazing because it is fluid—nothing is stagnant and though some things never go out of style, rarely do things stay the same.
> 
> *If you’re too scared to step out of your normal services, trends, and specialties, you could be missing out on some serious opportunities*. Stop being afraid to offer services that cater to new fads, to try new things, to think outside the box."
> 
> *Tip# 9 Work Smarter, Not MORE (this is you)*
> You don’t have to work yourself to the bone every single day, every moment you’re awake to make the money you want—you just need to work smarter.
> 
> Salons are often ran by women who maximize their income opportunity, while small barbers will often pass up opportunities to maximize theirs.  If you can only see things as "Either , Or" then you'll limit opportunities that could make things easier for you.   Similar to how restaurants that had existing carryout and online functions weren't hit as hard as those who only hand in-person dining."


Again, ordering a pizza and having it delivered could not be more different. Surely you get this.
I really, really don't need the sales pitch and there is no new lesson here. It is coming off shallow at best and reeks of you not being big enough to admit you are patently wrong. 
It is okay; we have all been there.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Again, ordering a pizza and having it delivered could not be more different. Surely you get this.
> I really, really don't need the sales pitch and there is no new lesson here. It is coming off shallow at best and reeks of you not being big enough to admit you are patently wrong.
> It is okay; we have all been there.


I don't have problems with being wrong.  On more than one occasion on this site, I've apologized when I have offended someone unintentionally,  I have admitted that I was wrong, and  I have even thanks Jobo personally in public for correcting me.

This doesn't have anything to do about me being Wrong.  If fact 2 people have already given you examples of how they used online classes for martial arts. Your issue is that you think ONLINE means that everything is done online and that there are no Offline operations and you would be incorrect about that.  

There are very few businesses that are 100% online.  If you sell products online then there's an offline component to it.   Even if you sell digital products, there is an offline component to it. Right now, today.  I can walk into a physical store and purchase a digital software.  Photoshop, Camtasia, Video Games, Microsoft Office.  I can literally go into a store, make a purchase of digital product without ever logging into a website, or even having the store log in for me.  I walk out with a physical product which I would use to download the digital product at home.

Like I said you put make things "Either Or"   For you it's  not a "Barbershop"   It's a "True Barbershop"   The other's aren't considered a "Barbershop" because they do more than a "True Babershop"   Your thinking about keeping martial arts students follows the same path.  A martial art school can't do Online Classes because then it won't make them a "Real Martial Art school"  Does that sound like something that runs through your head.


----------



## JowGaWolf

If I'm wrong then this guy is wrong.  Feel free to call him up and let him know.
The Basics Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, Leesburg, VA - Start training today! - Bing video
"The virtual way are a great way to start getting familiar with the techniques"  Dang bro.  He literally just said a lot of the same things I've been saying here.  But I'm the wrong?

Watch the whole video.  Especially @Kung Fu Wang and @gpseymour   I think you guys will like this.  A grappling system teaching online classes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> Again, ordering a pizza and having it delivered could not be more different. Surely you get this.
> I really, really don't need the sales pitch and there is no new lesson here. It is coming off shallow at best and reeks of you not being big enough to admit you are patently wrong.
> It is okay; we have all been there.


I didn't see anywhere he referred to a barber shop being entirely virtual. He referred to it as having an online presence. A barber shop should be online, and probably should sell some product online, but doesn't have to be exclusively online to do either of those.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> I didn't see anywhere he referred to a barber shop being entirely virtual. He referred to it as having an online presence. A barber shop should be online, and probably should sell some product online, but doesn't have to be exclusively online to do either of those.


Online ordering/scheduling/reservations are an extension of our highly integrated world that have been around much longer than the current virus situation. It is not a basic definition of the business to me. It does not define the product but the offering. In the pillars of business quotient these are two very critical thing that should never be confused although this seems to be what is happening. 
We use online signup and self attendance tracking. Each student has an account to access for billing/pricing/equipment and such. These things in no way identify our product. If you told a person just the few things I mentioned they would have l no idea what kind of business it is. 

Circling back to video classes, as I said earlier they have their place. But as any smart,logical business owner understands, presenting online classes as anything remotely close to tactile classes is a recipe for disaster down the road. And it doesn’t just affect the one school, it affects them all. Honestly, I fear we will not recognize martial arts 20 years from now if we do not preserve it.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't have problems with being wrong.  On more than one occasion on this site, I've apologized when I have offended someone unintentionally,  I have admitted that I was wrong, and  I have even thanks Jobo personally in public for correcting me.
> 
> This doesn't have anything to do about me being Wrong.  If fact 2 people have already given you examples of how they used online classes for martial arts. Your issue is that you think ONLINE means that everything is done online and that there are no Offline operations and you would be incorrect about that.
> 
> There are very few businesses that are 100% online.  If you sell products online then there's an offline component to it.   Even if you sell digital products, there is an offline component to it. Right now, today.  I can walk into a physical store and purchase a digital software.  Photoshop, Camtasia, Video Games, Microsoft Office.  I can literally go into a store, make a purchase of digital product without ever logging into a website, or even having the store log in for me.  I walk out with a physical product which I would use to download the digital product at home.
> 
> Like I said you put make things "Either Or"   For you it's  not a "Barbershop"   It's a "True Barbershop"   The other's aren't considered a "Barbershop" because they do more than a "True Babershop"   Your thinking about keeping martial arts students follows the same path.  A martial art school can't do Online Classes because then it won't make them a "Real Martial Art school"  Does that sound like something that runs through your head.


Yes. Yes it does. 
I have understood all along that I am thinking of the whole business model more binary. But I have tried to separate my comments from this thinking  and instead think of them how I believe the OP will hear your comments.  
I assume you already know your comments (aka, the pitch) leave more questions than answers. Aka, the up sale.  
We have all seen the random person get on this site and try to sell something. It is usually recognized quite quickly and they get little to no response. 
No, I don’t think you are that guy but I have heard a lot of the same stuff. Simply put superficial ideas without depth lead to more failures than successes. 

To the OP; I would have to say the best way to ride out this virus storm is to have had your emergency fund in place. Since this thing has protracted having this fund would speak volumes to your landlords and bankers. I doubt many people have/had enough EF to carry them through but hopefully enough to fund an a action plan once thing became a little clearer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Just to add some fuel for thought on where this thread has wandered. For schools of any size that have a significant component of either striking or forms (or both), it seems to me that offering online classes, virtual instruction, and/or recorded material is a way to do the best you can for the folks who want to keep training. For those who are grappling-based, there's probably still some opportunity to offer some drills that folks can do to maintain what they can during this time, even if it's just exercises and movements made into exercises (monster walk, shrimping, falls/rolls, etc.) - again either in virual classes or via recorded video. In both cases it's definitely not the same as being in-person, but it's something.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I fear we will not recognize martial arts 20 years from now if we do not preserve it.


My personal hope is that folks in 20 years aren't doing what I'm doing - even folks I've trained. I hope it has evolved as folks find better approaches for both application and training. If it becomes unrecognizable, I'm not concerned about that. I seriously doubt MA are going to evolve that quickly (for either the good or the bad) though.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> It is not a basic definition of the business to me.


FedEx is a good example.  They still have to physically pick up packages.  Packages can't be sent through the Internet.  But they still use an Online business format to serve customers even though their major task of delivering packages happens offline.  No one says Fed Ex isn't an online business.  Any business without an online function is at a disadvantage.  The pandemic has made that painfully clear as a lot of small businesses without an online function to provide services and or products couldn't even operate without it.



dvcochran said:


> It is not a basic definition of the business to me


 During the early years of the Internet Online Business was defined as exclusively online.  That definition is in accurate and has changed since then as the reality is that there are very few exclusively online businesses.  Most businesses that are online are hybrid businesses with a physical component and an online component.  Literally if you have a website that your customers used to reach out to you either by phone, email, or live chat then you have an online business.  The reason is because the website is used for communicating with potential customers and serves as a marketing function.  So it doesn't take much to be an online business.  Using a website to schedule appointments is an function of business carried online.   Look it up.



dvcochran said:


> We use online signup and self attendance tracking. Each student has an account to access for billing/pricing/equipment and such. These things in no way identify our product.


It does identify a product and service.  You just stated that it gives students access for billing, pricing, and equipment.  The account is both the product and service.  The platform that the account feature runs on is the product.  Being a access billing is the service.  If you make the user aware of the ability to access that information online, then you have identified the product and service.



dvcochran said:


> But as any smart,logical business owner understands, presenting online classes as anything remotely close to tactile classes is a recipe for disaster down the road


Martial arts has survived forms written in books, faulty memories, and video is a good resource tool.  Do a form in video and you can always go back to that video to learn the form for when you forget it.   Don't record it on video, then you can only hope that you can remember that form forever.  If there was video back during the origins of kung fu then they would have put it on video.  Wing Chun practioners often have heated debates about interpretations of wing chun because there is no video of the Wing Chun greats using wing chun to fight.

When cameras came into existence, the kung fu masters started using cameras to take pictures instead of drawings because the pictures were more accurate. Then came video and the kung fu masters adopted the video format.  Without a way to record the lessons, forms, techniques, and application, your system will run the risk of being lost for ever.  Online video is no different than what you see below, other than the format and quality.  Other than that is serves to the same purpose, to assist with training.  Without it one, can only guess how to do it.


dvcochran said:


> Honestly, I fear we will not recognize martial arts 20 years from now if we do not preserve it.


20 years from then, and this form is still practiced the same.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Yes. Yes it does.
> I have understood all along that I am thinking of the whole business model more binary. But I have tried to separate my comments from this thinking  and instead think of them how I believe the OP will hear your comments.
> I assume you already know your comments (aka, the pitch) leave more questions than answers. Aka, the up sale.
> We have all seen the random person get on this site and try to sell something. It is usually recognized quite quickly and they get little to no response.
> No, I don’t think you are that guy but I have heard a lot of the same stuff. Simply put superficial ideas without depth lead to more failures than successes.
> 
> To the OP; I would have to say the best way to ride out this virus storm is to have had your emergency fund in place. Since this thing has protracted having this fund would speak volumes to your landlords and bankers. I doubt many people have/had enough EF to carry them through but hopefully enough to fund an a action plan once thing became a little clearer.


The reason I can't go into detail is because that would require me to lay my business model out and I'm not going to do that or explain in detail what online component's I'm putting into action and how it works and how it will benefit in generating enrollment online and offline.  So I give enough information for people who may interested in it to research it more.  Maybe to even see what other schools are doing and how they are making it work for their school.

So yes.  I know some people may have questions. I don't think the other instructors would be happy if I just laid out the plan in public. I wouldn't be happy to lay the public out in plan.  I have a lot riding on the success of it.


----------



## WaterGal

dvcochran said:


> Are most of your students set up on EBT? I see this working with Zoom classes from a financial standpoint.
> It gets tenuous sometimes but there are certain students who more than pay for themselves just with their presence. You have to really, really be careful with the relationship. I can only think of one or two actual issues I ever had with folks like that. They just are not going to take advantage of the relationship. And man oh man do they make classes better.



The only "EBT' I'm familiar with is "electronic benefits transfer", which refers to government programs like SNAP and TANF that pay benefits onto a debit card. I don't think many of our students are on EBT.

We have a couple dozen students who joined before Covid and are still paying their regular membership dues and training only from home over Zoom. We also have a bunch of students that are taking a mix of in-person and Zoom classes, so they might come in to the school once a week and then take two or three classes from home.


----------



## WaterGal

JowGaWolf said:


> Once a job is lost, a person will cancel anything that isn't necessary.  I've been through 2 lay offs and it was always the same. response, spend less money, look for work, stop subscription and membership services.  Oh and no unnecessary traveling in the car.  Not much can be done about those situations except wish them the best and tell them to keep in touch.
> 
> There's nothing fun about no job and no money. An online component may be standard for everyone, even for barber shops. (making appointments online).  I'm pretty sure martial arts will go the same way.



Yeah, for sure. However, sometimes people will say "I can't afford it" instead of "it's not a priority for me".


----------



## JowGaWolf

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, for sure. However, sometimes people will say "I can't afford it" instead of "it's not a priority for me".


 That's what I told my Sifu when I got laid off.  But I told myself I have to get my priorities straight because I was willing to pay for classes without a job.  Not a good thing when married with kids.  It took about 10 seconds to come back to reality.  It had a good outcome though.  When people know you are "down on luck" and going through some hardships, it's not uncommon to get help even if you don't ask for it.

But it's one of the hardest things to talk about to others.  I had to swallow a lot of pride.  After I got laid off then my Sifu got laid off his job a few moths later.  It was much harder for him to swallow his pride.  That's when his weakness came out.  Mine was my pride.  His was quitting.  When things got bad he just gave up everything instead of keeping the things that were working. .   I know a lot of people who lost their jobs due to the pandemic are going through similar and worse situations that what I went through.  The pandemic is like the depression but without the depression.  Big corporations are still making money.


----------



## dvcochran

WaterGal said:


> The only "EBT' I'm familiar with is "electronic benefits transfer", which refers to government programs like SNAP and TANF that pay benefits onto a debit card. I don't think many of our students are on EBT.
> 
> We have a couple dozen students who joined before Covid and are still paying their regular membership dues and training only from home over Zoom. We also have a bunch of students that are taking a mix of in-person and Zoom classes, so they might come in to the school once a week and then take two or three classes from home.


Electronic bank transfer. Setting up automatic payment.


----------



## WaterGal

dvcochran said:


> Electronic bank transfer. Setting up automatic payment.



Okay, yeah, we have our students on automatic monthly billing to their credit or debit card.


----------



## J. Pickard

We have always offered online training resources even before covid to all active members. We had 2 months where we went to all virtual classes on zoom and this is where we saw the most loss as most students didn't want to do an online virtual class. When the weather warmed up we were able to hold outdoor classes which helped a little but we run very contact oriented programs; lots of partner work, sparring/rolling, bag work, weights/bands, etc. When we had to reformat our classes for virtual this component was lost and our students were not fans of it. For the most part the biggest obstacle seems to bee reduced wages for our students and/or their family. Recently a pksa Karate school closed permanently due to covid in our city and the only schools that seem to have had no negative effects from it are a local bjj school and a generic "martial arts" school that focuses mostly on martial arts inspired games for kids. We offer discounted rates for anyone who signs up for automatic billing instead of paying month to month with cash/check. I like the idea of a virtual class for those that aren't comfortable with in person training, I just don't want to get them used to one type of training and then finally start in person training and have it be complete culture shock but it still sounds like an idea worth trying.


----------



## JowGaWolf

J. Pickard said:


> I just don't want to get them used to one type of training and then finally start in person training and have it be complete culture shock but it still sounds like an idea worth trying.


It's all in how you market the online classes.  Those who aren't close to physically attend classes, are the ones you want to really enjoy it and get used to it.  Those who you want to eventually see in person, are those who you market the online classes as temporary workaround for those who attend.  However the school chooses to market  it, those are just some of the things that they have to take into consideration

The financial part is always difficult.
1. Money never "Trickles Downs." which is why all the rich people in the business are at the top and not the bottom.
2. If your customers don't have money then they can't buy your services.

As a martial art school, there's very little that can be done about the two things above.  Except to try to maintain the existing students so that they will be there when they can afford to pay.  Or lower the prices and cut back on some costs if necessary.  All hard decisions.


----------



## J. Pickard

JowGaWolf said:


> It's all in how you market the online classes.  Those who aren't close to physically attend classes, are the ones you want to really enjoy it and get used to it.  Those who you want to eventually see in person, are those who you market the online classes as temporary workaround for those who attend.



 I can give that a try. Wouldn't hurt at this point.


----------



## WaterGal

JowGaWolf said:


> That's what I told my Sifu when I got laid off.  But I told myself I have to get my priorities straight because I was willing to pay for classes without a job.  Not a good thing when married with kids.  It took about 10 seconds to come back to reality.  It had a good outcome though.  When people know you are "down on luck" and going through some hardships, it's not uncommon to get help even if you don't ask for it.



Oh yeah, I don't mean that people should prioritize martial arts training over feeding their family.

But sometimes, people have some financial hardship that's not that serious - they just need to reduce their bills a little bit to make things work. So maybe, they take kung fu class and guitar lessons and have premium cable and go out to the bar every Friday night, and they need to cut out 2 of those 4 things. So they need to decide which of those activities provides the most value to them. If your kung fu class is more important than HBO and guitar lessons, they'll stick with you. If it's not, they'll quit.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> My personal hope is that folks in 20 years aren't doing what I'm doing - even folks I've trained. I hope it has evolved as folks find better approaches for both application and training. If it becomes unrecognizable, I'm not concerned about that. I seriously doubt MA are going to evolve that quickly (for either the good or the bad) though.


I have pondered this quite a bit. I try to think of measurable comparators. We have all heard the "that is not how we used to to it" argument and it has at least some weight. A heavier historical measurement is MMA. Even in comparison to say PKA it radically changed the landscape of competitive MA's. Most would agree it is an amalgamation of sports, styles, and most notably rules. Some would argue a lack of or lessening of rules.
Drilling down to specific styles, Olympic Judo and TKD are unrecognizable to many stylist. Competition karate has changed quite a lot for the perceived universal term. 
There is no arguing MMA's effectiveness, both as a business entity and combat skill. Is it for everyone and will it replace some/most MA styles? I don't think so, mainly because it is mildly to mostly elite in nature. That said, I assume there are schools/gyms that have 'kids' MMA classes. Marketing 101. 
I also love the idea of evolution; it is at the nexus of the work I do. I agree the last 20 years has not made martial art styles unrecognizable and I am not aware of many valid styles that have outright disappeared. Hopefully the same will be true for the next 20, innovation aside.
Call me old fashioned but there are just parts of my martial arts that I would be fine if they never change.


----------



## Steve

Martial D said:


> With all due respect, online martial arts training is pretty worthless. Unless the student and teacher are both streaming at 100+ fps you won't see any subtleties. At that point you might as well try to learn from youtube.


100+ FPS?  That doesn’t sound right.  Most video you watch regardless of resolution is 30 FPS (really 29.97).  Some high speed cameras record movies action sequences at just under 60 FPS.  

Gaming can run at higher frames per second to help people avoid getting motion sickness.  but for video, 120 FPS is, at least right now, overkill.  Certainly, a high resolution video shot at 30 FPS is plenty crisp enough to see whatever subtleties you need.  

I think the real limitation will be on the lens.


----------



## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I think there’s more value than that in some situations. Certainly where there’s some experience for the student, there’s room for input, and 100 FPS isn’t necessary unless you’re trying to view full-speed movement.


Even then, sheesh.  I’d recommend spending some dough on decent lights, learn a little about blocking and hitting marks so that important things aren’t obscured by shadow, and get a decent lens with good depth of field and the ability to shoot some clear closeups.


----------



## Steve

JowGaWolf said:


> If they were to just think outside the box a little, they would be able to sell products, not only sale products but generate business deals with companies that sell hair care products and other related products.  Set up a nice display tv in a barbershop and run ad space for these companies and their products.  Have a website?  Do the same thing?
> 
> Not having consumables for sales is a choice.  Barbers choose to do or they don't.  When I was a teen the barber used to sell a lot of stuff  in their barbershop.  One year I went and they were trying to sell direct TV services. While that's not what I would go for today.  It was when Satellite TV was hot.  Sometimes people would walk in trying to sell jewelry and gold chains. lol.   My point is if there is a worth while opportunity to generate additional income then a business should take it.  A business should also take into consideration about how that money comes in.  Does it only come in when people come in or can you generate income in other ways, other than just when people show up..


Funny story, when I was a kid I would spend most summers at my grandparents’ house in Henrietta, TX.  My grandpa would take me down to David’s barber shop to get my ears lowered.  David’s shop was set up on two sides.  on one side was his two chairs (he only ever used one... the other was for whomever he was visiting with.). On the other side was his Nocona Boots and leather outlet.  I still have the wallet with my name on it I got from David’s.   An entrepreneur barber before it was cool.

Place is still in business, though David passed many years ago.  Also looks like they’re a thorogood store now, not Nocona, but I guess the model works.  
Waggoners - Google Search


----------



## Danny T

dvcochran said:


> Danny, do you just set up a camera and Zoom the classes or are they interactive?


My Zoom classes are designed for practitioners to work footwork, form, and drilling movements without a partner. I usually have a student with me who is able to perform the drills as the 'spotlight' person. I will instruct and show the footwork/drills to be practiced and then I spotlight the practitioner who is excellent at it while view the attendees and coach them while they are working.


----------



## Martial D

Steve said:


> 100+ FPS?  That doesn’t sound right.  Most video you watch regardless of resolution is 30 FPS (really 29.97).  Some high speed cameras record movies action sequences at just under 60 FPS.
> 
> Gaming can run at higher frames per second to help people avoid getting motion sickness.  but for video, 120 FPS is, at least right now, overkill.  Certainly, a high resolution video shot at 30 FPS is plenty crisp enough to see whatever subtleties you need.
> 
> I think the real limitation will be on the lens.



Really though, even it the highest definition possible you won't get much from video training. At best you will end up being able to convincingly ape movements. I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not. If you are looking for more that that you will need another human being present to lay your hands on.


----------



## _Simon_

Martial D said:


> Really though, even it the highest definition possible you won't get much from video training. At best you will end up being able to convincingly ape movements. I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not. If you are looking for more that that you will need another human being present to lay your hands on.


Just curious here, in your training, every single drill you do is done with a partner? Every single one?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not.


I think you are confusing Training vs Learning how to fight.  These are 2 different things.

When people are talking about training online, they aren't talking about training how to fight.  They are training people in the techniques and application.  These are different than knowing how to use it in a fight.






Remove the pad holder and you'll have your solo drill.





In both videos he teaching technique.  If she wants to actually know how to use this stuff then she'll need to get some sparring in.  This is true for online and offline course.   In terms of training sparring is an in-person activity, but it doesn't have to be something that is only done at the school.  In my 20's a lot of my sparring was done outside of school with my co-worker.  I sparred more out of school than in school.  

Some people who train online have friends or family that they can spar with.  For those who don't, the only place to spar is going to be in the school.   If you need to spar against other people in the same system, then sparring at school is going to be the easiest way to go about this, but it's not the only way.    It's much easier for me to find another Jow Ga student to spar with in a school than it is is to randomly find a Jow Ga student outside of school  to spar with.


----------



## dvcochran

Martial D said:


> Really though, even it the highest definition possible you won't get much from video training. At best you will end up being able to convincingly ape movements. I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not. If you are looking for more that that you will need another human being present to lay your hands on.


You are missing the gist of most threads. The consensus is video/zoom classes compliment but do Not replace live classes.


----------



## Martial D

_Simon_ said:


> Just curious here, in your training, every single drill you do is done with a partner? Every single one?



Well. Yes actually. Aside from the warmup.

But look, if you guys want to believe you are getting something from martial arts zoom meetings, great. I just don't see how, and more than anything it seems like a cheap and easy way to make a buck by those selling said lessons .


----------



## WaterGal

Martial D said:


> Really though, even it the highest definition possible you won't get much from video training. At best you will end up being able to convincingly ape movements. I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not. If you are looking for more that that you will need another human being present to lay your hands on.



A lot of people do have another person present in their home. Sometimes multiple people! And they might have even more people who come over to their house sometimes.


----------



## Martial D

WaterGal said:


> A lot of people do have another person present in their home. Sometimes multiple people! And they might have even more people who come over to their house sometimes.


So you are suggesting watching a video and trying out what you saw, but probably don't understand due to lack of proper instruction, on your mom/gf/wife/little brother.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are trying to make a joke.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> So you are suggesting watching a video and trying out what you saw, but probably don't understand due to lack of proper instruction, on your mom/gf/wife/little brother.
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are trying to make a joke.


That's your reality.

This is what actually happens
Family doing padwork










Family Sparring


----------



## JowGaWolf

If you don't live alone, then you probably have someone to hold mits for your.


----------



## WaterGal

Martial D said:


> So you are suggesting watching a video and trying out what you saw, but probably don't understand due to lack of proper instruction, on your mom/gf/wife/little brother.
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are trying to make a joke.



We had 8 kids take a Zoom kids BJJ class today. They did well, and had fun drilling basic techniques with their mom or dad at home. Now, if they're having trouble, it can be harder to give them good feedback, especially if their camera stinks or they don't have good lighting in their living room. But it works better than you'd think. Now, if you're not good at explaining and demonstrating how to do the techniques safely and effectively, you might have some trouble, but that'll be an issue no matter where your students are.


----------



## dvcochran

Martial D said:


> Well. Yes actually. Aside from the warmup.
> 
> But look, if you guys want to believe you are getting something from martial arts zoom meetings, great. I just don't see how, and more than anything it seems like a cheap and easy way to make a buck by those selling said lessons .


I don't disagree and have said as much but it is better than nothing. 
Again, it is Not a replacement but a stop gap.


----------



## dvcochran

WaterGal said:


> Now, if you're not good at explaining and demonstrating how to do the techniques safely and effectively, you might have some trouble, but that'll be an issue no matter where your students are.


Well said. This is the biggest element of remote classes.


----------



## dvcochran

Martial D said:


> So you are suggesting watching a video and trying out what you saw, but probably don't understand due to lack of proper instruction, on your mom/gf/wife/little brother.
> 
> I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are trying to make a joke.


I has also been repeatedly stated in the thread that online training is best for people who have already had tactile training and have an understanding of what they are doing. 
Maybe if you think of it as a workout instead of teaching new skills it will soak in.


----------



## Martial D

dvcochran said:


> I has also been repeatedly stated in the thread that online training is best for people who have already had tactile training and have an understanding of what they are doing.
> Maybe if you think of it as a workout instead of teaching new skills it will soak in.


Yes..thanks for your condencending remark but it has 'soaked in' just fine. It has not been discussed here as a 'workout'. It seems more like it is being sold here by the two main proponents in this thread as a wholesale replacement. I get it, you can't go to the gym/club/dojo due to covid, and the ones running these places are feeling the pinch.

Hard times all around. My only point is that most people will get nothing of value from such 'training'. 

Caveat emptor


----------



## dvcochran

Martial D said:


> Yes..thanks for your condencending remark but it has 'soaked in' just fine. It has not been discussed here as a 'workout'. It seems more like it is being sold here by the two main proponents in this thread as a wholesale replacement. I get it, you can't go to the gym/club/dojo due to covid, and the ones running these places are feeling the pinch.
> 
> Hard times all around. My only point is that most people will get nothing of value from such 'training'.
> 
> Caveat emptor


I do not know what the emoji is for scratching my head but you have me doing it. I merely stated the facts of this thread and offered a suggestion to help you see it differently. 
Never meant it to sound condescending.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> My only point is that most people will get nothing of value from such 'training'


What is it that you think they should be getting from training that you don't see them getting from online training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Really though, even it the highest definition possible you won't get much from video training. At best you will end up being able to convincingly ape movements. I mean, if you practice some style where nobody fights anyone and you just like synchronized movements then sure..why not. If you are looking for more that that you will need another human being present to lay your hands on.


Here's a situation I could see working. If I had a boxing coach and wanted to work on some basic combos via video, he could demo them at a heavy bag. I could repeat them on one, and he coud give me feedback.

I could do the same with any combos (sticks, kicks, etc.).

With an experienced person, more could be transmitted. If I already have basic footwork (meaning I already do that bit reasonably well), a boxing coach could teach me some variations via video, too. Same for shadow-boxing sequences to work on head movement, etc. I also think an experienced person can pick up some new basics via video. A good kicking coach could get someone started on the basics of a new kick via video if they are already a decent kicker (again, they probably need a heavy bag to work with).

I think all of this is more problematic with a truly new person. You're going to be able to deliver some concepts and maybe get them started on basic strikes, but there's a big gap for all but the exceptional few.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

WaterGal said:


> We had 8 kids take a Zoom kids BJJ class today. They did well, and had fun drilling basic techniques with their mom or dad at home. Now, if they're having trouble, it can be harder to give them good feedback, especially if their camera stinks or they don't have good lighting in their living room. But it works better than you'd think. Now, if you're not good at explaining and demonstrating how to do the techniques safely and effectively, you might have some trouble, but that'll be an issue no matter where your students are.


It can also be a problem for those of us who communicate more by touch ("move this leg here" - tap leg with foot, tap foot to ground).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> It seems more like it is being sold here by the two main proponents in this thread as a wholesale replacement.


I haven't read anyone's post that way. I did see one person suggest some folks may prefer it, because they aren't really interested in learning to fight, but that's not all that controversial, I'd think.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> I haven't read anyone's post that way. I did see one person suggest some folks may prefer it, because they aren't really interested in learning to fight, but that's not all that controversial, I'd think.


Here's someone who has learned to do BJJ online and he says how he was able to do it.  From a customer's perspective.





Everything he says here is the same thing that many of us have been saying.  Techniques can be learned online.  Application / actual use needs a sparring partner.  If people aren't interested in learning how to apply the technique then there's no need for a sparring partner.  When I taught in a school there were students who wanted to learn to use Martial Arts.  They showed up on Thursdays.  Then there were some who weren't interested and they showed up on the other days. and didn't want to spar.   So I'm confused as to what Martial D is expecting people to get out of Online training in his eyes.  There just seems to be a disconnect or something that's not being communicated when  thinking of Online Training vs Offline training.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> What is it that you think they should be getting from training that you don't see them getting from online training.


Learning martial arts.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Learning martial arts.


That's too general.  What specifically about martial arts.


----------



## Martial D

JowGaWolf said:


> That's too general.  What specifically about martial arts.


Well I guess that hinges on your definition of martial arts.

To me, without the martial part it's just asian dancing, and to get the applicable 'martial' skills requires actual hands on training.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Martial D said:


> Well I guess that hinges on your definition of martial arts.


Not on my definition.  I'm trying to figure out your perspective because there is some miscommunication going on.



Martial D said:


> To me, without the martial part it's just asian dancing, and to get the applicable 'martial' skills requires actual hands on training.


This is the definition that I use for myself.  But I know in reality that's not how it is in the world.  In the world people will take boxing classes and never fight or spar.  People will take karate classes and do forms but never care about how to apply the techniques. Then you have TKD tricking and TKD Martial arts dancing (yes that's areal thing).   Crazy 88 is a gym that produces world professional champions, but they will teach people MMA, and if they don't want to get into the ring then they won't force that person to fight in the ring.

So in the world of Martial Arts and business I have to accept the truth that there are different aspects of Martial Arts and not everyone is going to see it the way that I see it.   If I only open a school for people like me, then I would only have a hand full of people that would be interested in taking that path.  To give you an example.  In a Class of 20 students, I ran a Sparring class every Thursday for 1 year and during that time no one showed up.  For 1 freaking year not one person.  I kept showing up even though no one else showed up.  I started to do some solo training that helps with applying techniques in sparring by myself for an entire year hoping that someone would Join.  It wasn't until I shared my sparring videos with the other students that they became interested in it.  They saw that I could actually use Kung Fu.  I even had a Student at a different school ask me how did I learn how to use Kung Fu.  Even after all that.  It was only 5 out 20 that were actually willing to train like I did.

If that's all that I'm going to do then I'm going to be broke.  No school, no equipment for students, no students..  Sometimes you have to meet people where they are and for the goals they want to accomplish.

But now I have a better understanding of why you see online classes the way you do.

*Edit on this: * When I say I see Martial Arts similar to how you see it, I mean I think people should train all of it including the sparring.  But where I differ is that I don't see it as a dance if they don't train the martial part.  Even if they don't do the sparring they are still doing martial arts, if they are practicing the techniques, in a way that would be correct with the application of it.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Not on my definition.  I'm trying to figure out your perspective because there is some miscommunication going on.
> 
> This is the definition that I use for myself.  But I know in reality that's not how it is in the world.  In the world people will take boxing classes and never fight or spar.  People will take karate classes and do forms but never care about how to apply the techniques. Then you have TKD tricking and TKD Martial arts dancing (yes that's areal thing).   Crazy 88 is a gym that produces world professional champions, but they will teach people MMA, and if they don't want to get into the ring then they won't force that person to fight in the ring.
> 
> So in the world of Martial Arts and business I have to accept the truth that there are different aspects of Martial Arts and not everyone is going to see it the way that I see it.   If I only open a school for people like me, then I would only have a hand full of people that would be interested in taking that path.  To give you an example.  In a Class of 20 students, I ran a Sparring class every Thursday for 1 year and during that time no one showed up.  For 1 freaking year not one person.  I kept showing up even though no one else showed up.  I started to do some solo training that helps with applying techniques in sparring by myself for an entire year hoping that someone would Join.  It wasn't until I shared my sparring videos with the other students that they became interested in it.  They saw that I could actually use Kung Fu.  I even had a Student at a different school ask me how did I learn how to use Kung Fu.  Even after all that.  It was only 5 out 20 that were actually willing to train like I did.
> 
> If that's all that I'm going to do then I'm going to be broke.  No school, no equipment for students, no students..  Sometimes you have to meet people where they are and for the goals they want to accomplish.
> 
> But now I have a better understanding of why you see online classes the way you do.
> 
> *Edit on this: * When I say I see Martial Arts similar to how you see it, I mean I think people should train all of it including the sparring.  But where I differ is that I don't see it as a dance if they don't train the martial part.  Even if they don't do the sparring they are still doing martial arts, if they are practicing the techniques, in a way that would be correct with the application of it.



I see it just the opposite. I cannot be martial and be dance. It can be art and be dance. 

mar·tial
/ˈmärSHəl/
_adjective_

of or appropriate to war; warlike.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I see it just the opposite. I cannot be martial and be dance. It can be art and be dance.
> 
> mar·tial
> /ˈmärSHəl/
> _adjective_
> 
> of or appropriate to war; warlike.


I'm not going to kick out or belittle a student for not wanting to use or train martial arts as a fighting system.  I'll not only lose good people, I'll also end up losing good people willing to support and promote my school and the system that I train in.  If I want to train as the definition that you stated, then can do that with or without a school.  If I'm trying to share and promote my system then I need to have some understanding of the reasons someone may want to join my school.  Especially since there's a lot of people out there who take martial arts in person who can't fight even though they spar.

The fastest way to have your school shut down and go out of business is to do start dictating to your students how they should value the training you offer and trying to force them to be like you.  

Don't get me wrong.  I still teach functional martial arts. I don't change how I teach or what I teach.  I can only teach what I know. But if someone wants to only pay me $80 a month to do forms that look cool, or to just get exercise.  Then I'm going to take the $80 train them. Students don't have to train for the same reason I train.  They only need to:
1. Show up for practice
2. Be respectful to themselves and others.
3. Pay membership fees on time or notify me that they can't
4. Don't be a Jerk.
5. Train hard have fun.

That's all I have ever asked of students and so far that brought people through the door, I never got a call about teaching their kids how to be disciplined.  All of my kid calls were about self-defense against bullies.  All of my adult calls were about exercise and stay in shape with the exception of 3 adults who wanted to learn how to fight.  And another Jow Ga student from up north who wanted to do cool kung fu stuff.  He didn't like our school too much.  We were too practical for him, some Jow Ga schools go for the flashy look and entertainment look.  They teach real techniques but they also add flashy stuff.


----------



## JowGaWolf

My thoughts on the entertainment side of martial arts is that Extreme Martial Arts looks cool especially in the movies, but practical and functional martial arts can look cool too.  It's all about presentation and which side you decide to show.  Plus a little theme or background music also helps lol.  Demos are one thing, but I think people really appreciated seeing things in actual use, especially since we rarely see Martial Arts applications beyond a a school demo.

MODERATORS:  Don't delete this as the school no longer exists.  Website is no longer up.






I used this video because it promotes my perception of what Martial Arts is and what is possible with Jow Ga.  One student watched this video for 2 months and passed up a lot of Sifu's and more qualified teachers than me.  I don't know what's more amazing, that he watched the same video for 2 months or that he passed up other Sifu's to train with an Instructor.

On a new project I'm working on. I will diverse a little on "What martial arts includes"  Because it's more than just sparring.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I see it just the opposite. I cannot be martial and be dance. It can be art and be dance.
> 
> mar·tial
> /ˈmärSHəl/
> _adjective_
> 
> of or appropriate to war; warlike.


A couple of thoughts on this.

First, we can approach the term two ways. We can hold our own view of it and (for those teaching) teach only those who hold the same view. I have no problem with that approach, but (again, for those teaching) it limits who you can help. If I only taught the way I prefer to practice, I'd only be able to teach relatively young folks, folks with previous experience in falls, or exceptional folks who can still learn that quickly after age 30. Since those aren't the folks typically walking in my door, I'd probably not be able to keep the program going. So for me, I am open to teaching folks with a different goal from their training than I have/had. If what I taught was MMA or BJJ (more popular, and the latter probably less impact), I could probably get by teaching only to those who share my view of MA.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of literal interpretation of individual words in a term to identify the term's meaning. Terms mean what they are used to mean. I have this same issue with folks who try to interpret "arts" to mean it must have an artistic/expressive element, or it doesn't qualify as a MA. Neither word need keep its literal meaning in the compound term. In talking with folks in MA (as they define it), I find usages ranging from "derived from battle-tested technique (however long ago that was)" to "focused on combat" to "somehow derived from war or fighting". All seem to be reasonably common usages.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> A couple of thoughts on this.
> 
> First, we can approach the term two ways. We can hold our own view of it and (for those teaching) teach only those who hold the same view. I have no problem with that approach, but (again, for those teaching) it limits who you can help. If I only taught the way I prefer to practice, I'd only be able to teach relatively young folks, folks with previous experience in falls, or exceptional folks who can still learn that quickly after age 30. Since those aren't the folks typically walking in my door, I'd probably not be able to keep the program going. So for me, I am open to teaching folks with a different goal from their training than I have/had. If what I taught was MMA or BJJ (more popular, and the latter probably less impact), I could probably get by teaching only to those who share my view of MA.
> 
> Secondly, I'm not a fan of literal interpretation of individual words in a term to identify the term's meaning. Terms mean what they are used to mean. I have this same issue with folks who try to interpret "arts" to mean it must have an artistic/expressive element, or it doesn't qualify as a MA. Neither word need keep its literal meaning in the compound term. In talking with folks in MA (as they define it), I find usages ranging from "derived from battle-tested technique (however long ago that was)" to "focused on combat" to "somehow derived from war or fighting". All seem to be reasonably common usages.



I fully agree that teaching and by virtue classes have to be scalar. Kids should not be taught the literal ideas of 'martial' arts. Hard enough just to teach them the concept of controlling kicks/punches sometimes. Most people cannot mentally go there to any real depth, at least for quite some time. 
We do speak, display, and teach martial techniques at every adult class in candid martial framework. Depending on the class makeup we will go deeper or stay in the shallow end. 
I do find myself blurring the line between ideas like you mention and the mentality it takes to compete at very high levels. Much of the chemistry is the same. 

I think some of the literal context is an English language paradox; many words have multiple meanings and inferences. When possible I prefer do deal in absolutes, including wording.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not going to kick out or belittle a student for not wanting to use or train martial arts as a fighting system.  I'll not only lose good people, I'll also end up losing good people willing to support and promote my school and the system that I train in.  If I want to train as the definition that you stated, then can do that with or without a school.  If I'm trying to share and promote my system then I need to have some understanding of the reasons someone may want to join my school.  Especially since there's a lot of people out there who take martial arts in person who can't fight even though they spar.
> 
> The fastest way to have your school shut down and go out of business is to do start dictating to your students how they should value the training you offer and trying to force them to be like you.
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  I still teach functional martial arts. I don't change how I teach or what I teach.  I can only teach what I know. But if someone wants to only pay me $80 a month to do forms that look cool, or to just get exercise.  Then I'm going to take the $80 train them. Students don't have to train for the same reason I train.  They only need to:
> 1. Show up for practice
> 2. Be respectful to themselves and others.
> 3. Pay membership fees on time or notify me that they can't
> 4. Don't be a Jerk.
> 5. Train hard have fun.
> 
> That's all I have ever asked of students and so far that brought people through the door, I never got a call about teaching their kids how to be disciplined.  All of my kid calls were about self-defense against bullies.  All of my adult calls were about exercise and stay in shape with the exception of 3 adults who wanted to learn how to fight.  And another Jow Ga student from up north who wanted to do cool kung fu stuff.  He didn't like our school too much.  We were too practical for him, some Jow Ga schools go for the flashy look and entertainment look.  They teach real techniques but they also add flashy stuff.


I think most of us are on the same page. You dogged martial dance, I do not agree with it. A quality school and instructors will be able to scale classes based on the audience. That said, it is impractical and frankly unethical to try and cater to everyone of every ilk in a given class. Someone will be left out every time. There have to be minimum standards. Period. Your 1-5 list is a given. No one is talking about a strict, hardass class environment. And you may be surprised how many of your casual participants will get to where the want more if the training is done correctly.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You dogged martial dance, I do not agree with it.


I don't think I did.  I just called this one like I see it.

This is not martial arts.  This is dance.





When it gets to this point, I don't know why they even need the TKD uniform and black belt. 





This is dance.





What they do looks more like this and less like something used for fighting.





It's dance not martial arts.  

I like cake, seafood, vegetables, steak and  tea.  But throwing it all in a bowl and mixing it together doesn't make it delicious.  Not dogging it.  It's just my personal taste

I like Martial Arts, Dance, Fight scense and Gymnastics.  Throwing it all together doesn't make it Martial Arts and it definitely doesn't mean I'm going to like it.  Not dogging it. It's just my personal taste


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Kids should not be taught the literal ideas of 'martial' arts.


Kids came to my school because they were being bullied.  Their parents wanted them to know how to fight and how to protect themselves.  I taught all of my kids the literal ideas of "martial" arts.  Because they came there to learn how to fight and protect themselves.  I didn't decide that for them. They came to the school because that's what I focused on and that's they type of training that they were looking for.  I didn't get any people who were interested in tricking because I don't train that way.  Nor do I teach that way.  I rather refer people like that to a school that better fits their needs.

There's nothing wrong with teaching kids the literal ideas of "martial" arts.  It's not some awful thing that will traumatize them for life.  But what will traumatize them, is getting into a fight at school and getting a brutal beat down because they don't know how to physically protect themselves.  

I teach the literal ideas of  martial arts and let people decide if they want to hold on to that or not.  The youngest student I taught was 5 years old.. One of the things I said right off the back is that we use kung fu to protect our selves and not to be a bully.  She understood that and if my memory is correct she actually used it in school.  Sounds silly but some of these kids go through hell.  If people are telling them to stand up to bullies then they better give that child some physical skill sets to do so.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Kids came to my school because they were being bullied.  Their parents wanted them to know how to fight and how to protect themselves.  I taught all of my kids the literal ideas of "martial" arts.  Because they came there to learn how to fight and protect themselves.  I didn't decide that for them. They came to the school because that's what I focused on and that's they type of training that they were looking for.  I didn't get any people who were interested in tricking because I don't train that way.  Nor do I teach that way.  I rather refer people like that to a school that better fits their needs.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with teaching kids the literal ideas of "martial" arts.  It's not some awful thing that will traumatize them for life.  But what will traumatize them, is getting into a fight at school and getting a brutal beat down because they don't know how to physically protect themselves.
> 
> I teach the literal ideas of  martial arts and let people decide if they want to hold on to that or not.  The youngest student I taught was 5 years old.. One of the things I said right off the back is that we use kung fu to protect our selves and not to be a bully.  She understood that and if my memory is correct she actually used it in school.  Sounds silly but some of these kids go through hell.  If people are telling them to stand up to bullies then they better give that child some physical skill sets to do so.


You are all over the place with this. 
Again, I think most of us are on the same page with gross class structure. But there is a decent amount of space between the heavier martial concepts and a 5 year old being bullied. Yes, both can/should be covered in a comprehensive program but that is a fairly large chasm to jump over to lump them together.


----------



## Flying Crane

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't think I did.  I just called this one like I see it.
> 
> This is not martial arts.  This is dance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When it gets to this point, I don't know why they even need the TKD uniform and black belt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is dance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What they do looks more like this and less like something used for fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's dance not martial arts.
> 
> I like cake, seafood, vegetables, steak and  tea.  But throwing it all in a bowl and mixing it together doesn't make it delicious.  Not dogging it.  It's just my personal taste
> 
> I like Martial Arts, Dance, Fight scense and Gymnastics.  Throwing it all together doesn't make it Martial Arts and it definitely doesn't mean I'm going to like it.  Not dogging it. It's just my personal taste


Jeezuz.  Watching this stuff made me want to scoop my eyes out with a spoon.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> You are all over the place with this.
> Again, I think most of us are on the same page with gross class structure. But there is a decent amount of space between the heavier martial concepts and a 5 year old being bullied. Yes, both can/should be covered in a comprehensive program but that is a fairly large chasm to jump over to lump them together.


I'm not sure what you mean.
I taught kids class with the adults. We didn't have a separate class for kids.  The 5 year old trained with the adults doing the same techniques that the beginner adults were training.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Flying Crane said:


> Jeezuz.  Watching this stuff made me want to scoop my eyes out with a spoon.


Yeah it's really bad and it gets worse.


----------

