# Height of the bong-sau



## izeqb (Oct 25, 2011)

The Bong-sau is such a key element in our wing-chun training... together with the two other keys: Fook and Taan.

Even though we can agree on the above, the how's and when's of the bong-sau differ a lot from linage to linage.

Here's my point of view on the bong-sau:

When we are talking about redirecting force, i.e. "a heavy punch", It should lay right on the line between my opponent and my own solar plexus. Not higher or lower. If it gets any higher, against a skilled opponent, joint-destruction is very possible.

However, if you are dealing with punch where the point of contact is very high (the head) then you should use what we in our linage call the "biu-bong" which is found in chum-kiu after the double Bong/Taan movements, followed by a straight thrusting punch going under the bong-sau.

I'd love to hear your guys opinion on this and how you do it in your linage J


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## izeqb (Oct 25, 2011)

Wayne explains it pretty good and this is also how we apply bong-sau in our linage:


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 25, 2011)

I don't know much about lineages but perhaps due to my height, i find myself using the tan sau more than bong during sparring.


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## izeqb (Oct 25, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> I don't know much about lineages but perhaps due to my height, i find myself using the tan sau more than bong during sparring.



I'm guessing you're a short guy?


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 25, 2011)

sarcasm? So according to you a short guy would need to tan sau more than a tall guy? Im not.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 25, 2011)

There are differences in what i do and what is hown in the video and the posts thus far. First- we distinguish between the development of motions- specially when working by yourself and applying it 
on the dummy or against another person.. In the latter cases your bong sao has to adjust upon contact depending on vectors/forces involved and the timing.
Wing chun is not robotic or mechanical.

By yourself --there are three levels of bong-- regular, middle and dai bpng/low bong. For the regular bong I keep my wrist and fingers straight but the muscles relaxed.I do not raise my shoulders.
And the bong does not go outside of my square body.From tan, the elbow rises straight up till the hand reaches near the shoulder level. Then the elbow tiurns and the kiu/bridge ciuts forward and down wards.
The elbow ends up slightly higher than the shoulder. One seamless motion when practices agin and again-many many times.
The bong when done right is a beautiful and effectctive motion provided the body structure is correct when standing and balanced with good  footwork when moving.

A good sifu is needed for corrections... self taught wing chun is problem ridden.

joy chaudhuri


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 25, 2011)

Hmm When my partner is about 5 inches shorter than me and he throws a punch , i just feel more comfortable Using tan sau ... obviously the bong is a very viable option i donot doubt that infact you've given me a great idea for a practice session , so thank you ... Vajramusti with all due respect Self taught wing chun might have a few loose nuts and bolts but it isn't exactly a rusty 1919 volxwagon thats about to be scrapped


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 25, 2011)

Haris Lamboo Faisal said:


> ... Vajramusti with all due respect Self taught wing chun might have a few loose nuts and bolts but it isn't exactly a rusty 1919 volxwagon thats about to be scrapped



There were no Volkswagons in 1919. The first prototype Volkswagon (Bug) was build in 1936.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 25, 2011)

Vajramusti said:


> There are differences in what i do and what is hown in the video and the posts thus far. First- we distinguish between the development of motions- specially when working by yourself and applying it
> on the dummy or against another person.. In the latter cases your bong sao has to adjust upon contact depending on vectors/forces involved and the timing.
> Wing chun is not robotic or mechanical.
> 
> ...



I agree 100%, great post.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 25, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> I agree 100%, great post.



i am misunderstood again ... which probably because i failed to communicate one important thing ... I've been aching to train with a live sifu all summer long ... and soon enough Hopefully If God permits i will get that chance and i will travel with the money that i have and i will train harder than i've trained all year ... the road to self improvement has just begun ... That still doesn't change the fact that vajra's post gave me an awesome idea for a bong sau excercise.


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## mook jong man (Oct 25, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Wayne explains it pretty good and this is also how we apply bong-sau in our linage:



The reason that guy gets punched in the face is because he doesn't stick to the other guys wrist as the force is coming in , he should just start to roll into Bong Sau , stick to the wrist and maintain his structure and let the other guy push his whole arm up.

A bit like if I am holding a small hula hoop in front of my chest horizontally , the incoming punch will come in with the wrist making contact with the edge of the ring and pushing the hula hoop up , but the structural integrity of the hoop is maintained and the punch doesn't reach my face.

But anyway against a heavy punch we do it like this , but to be perfecty honest if I can see it coming early enough I prefer to parry the punch  and shift forward diagonally to the blindside and rip a low hook punch straight across the side of their rib cage or hit them with a  man sau up into their arm pit.


[video=youtube_share;z_8co6GsRR8]http://youtu.be/z_8co6GsRR8[/video]


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## Eric_H (Oct 25, 2011)

As for what I learned in Yip Man WC, I think Joy's pretty spot on in his description. 

In Hung Fa Yi we use two different categories of bong sao, Crane (Hok) Bong and Eagle (Yeng) bong. Crane has the elbow level with the shoulder, bent wrist and is driven by finger energy. Eagle bong the elbow must be higher than the wrist and the wrist is straight.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 25, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> The reason that guy gets punched in the face is because he doesn't stick to the other guys wrist as the force is coming in , he should just start to roll into Bong Sau , stick to the wrist and maintain his structure and let the other guy push his whole arm up.
> 
> A bit like if I am holding a small hula hoop in front of my chest horizontally , the incoming punch will come in with the wrist making contact with the edge of the ring and pushing the hula hoop up , but the structural integrity of the hoop is maintained and the punch doesn't reach my face.
> 
> ...



The young man in the video does what most people do when trapped. They give up! ! ! If he would follow the drill we use in our lineage, he would not have gotten hit. Once the arms are trapped (in the video, right hand over left, being held at the wrist), he should raise his elbow, shift using his right hip, and perform Quan sao (left tan and right bong sao), driving forward towards his opponent. Because the arms are on ball and socket joints (the shoulder joints), it is almost impossible for anyone to prevent you from moving your arms in another direction, thus allowing you to perform a bong or tan sao, or just about any direction you want. Also, the young man does not maintain his immoveable elbow position, thus the reason he is trapped.

And lookig back at the video, the gentleman in the blue shirt gave up the position too soon.  From the way the young man attacked with his punch, the guy in the blue shift could easily have done a tan sao or biu sao instead of bong and gotten an immediate strike rather than delay it with 2 extra hand motions.  But then I quess he wouldn't have been able to demonstrate one of the possibilities of using bong sao.


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## mook jong man (Oct 25, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> The young man in the video does what most people do when trapped. They give up! ! ! If he would follow the drill we use in our lineage, he would not have gotten hit. Once the arms are trapped (in the video, right hand over left, being held at the wrist), he should raise his elbow, shift using his right hip, and perform Quan sao (left tan and right bong sao), driving forward towards his opponent. Because the arms are on ball and socket joints (the shoulder joints), it is almost impossible for anyone to prevent you from moving your arms in another direction, thus allowing you to perform a bong or tan sao, or just about any direction you want. Also, the young man does not maintain his immoveable elbow position, thus the reason he is trapped.
> 
> And lookig back at the video, the gentleman in the blue shirt gave up the position too soon.  From the way the young man attacked with his punch, the guy in the blue shift could easily have done a tan sao or biu sao instead of bong and gotten an immediate strike rather than delay it with 2 extra hand motions.  But then I quess he wouldn't have been able to demonstrate one of the possibilities of using bong sao.



There are some problems with the demo , that's for sure , but as a basic idea of how we apply a Bong Sau against a straight punch , it is ok.

As you have pointed out , the demo should have explained that the only reason we are applying the technique at all is because we have tried to intercept his punch and strike through , but we have been met with a greater force and so we are obliged to convert that strike into a Bong Sau.

The other thing that I would do differently is to have the attacker charging in like a freight train in a more street assault type of fashion instead of in a Wing Chun stance and guard and attacking like a limp noodle.

Wing Chun vs Wing Chun demos kind of irritate me to be honest , I'm only really interested if it is random Chi sau sparring.

If he had attacked in the manner I prescribed , there is no chance for him to counter because I would either strike straight through or because of the amount of force coming in I would pivot causing the attacker to be shunted to the side and off balance , hit in the throat end of story.

But because it's a Wing Chun vs Wing Chun type scenario , they've tried to get a bit fancy with the counter and the re-countering , and as we all know there are multiple techniques from Chi Sau that can be applied to counter that initial Bong Sau and strike.
The simplest of which is to do exactly the same thing back to him , which then becomes something similar to the familiar lap sau drill.

But getting back to the initial movement you are 100% correct he should have tried to strike through , because even if you don't get through it actually makes the Bong Sau more effective as you get forward force into the wrist contact which keeps it there and stops the punch sliding up your arm.

It also causes the opponent to feel more force coming in at him and as a reaction he puts more force on and commits more of his bodyweight which in turn gives you more of a dramatic effect in off balancing him with your pivot.

So yeah the demo could have been a lot better in my opinion , but to illustrate the basic mechanics of the Bong Sau against a straight punch if you haven't been able to get through then it is technically sound.


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## MacPedro (Oct 27, 2011)

MJM, 

"But getting back to the initial movement you are 100% correct he should have tried to strike through , because even if you don't get through it actually makes the Bong Sau more effective as you get forward force into the wrist contact which keeps it there and stops the punch sliding up your arm.

It also causes the opponent to feel more force coming in at him and as a reaction he puts more force on and commits more of his bodyweight which in turn gives you more of a dramatic effect in off balancing him with your pivot."   

Are you going be filming this? 


Zepada,

"Once the arms are trapped (in the video, right hand over left, being held at the wrist), he should raise his elbow, shift using his right hip, and perform Quan sao." Thanks for this Al, it's a keeper 


Eric_H,

"In Hung Fa Yi we use two different categories of bong sao, Crane (Hok) Bong and Eagle (Yeng) bong. Crane has the elbow level with the shoulder, bent wrist and is driven by finger energy. Eagle bong the elbow must be higher than the wrist and the wrist is straight." 
I like this, I like the names (it's part of the magic and the imagery. Would you be at liberty to discuss instances in which each is used in preference to the other. It appears to me at first glance that the Eagle bong is maybe using the underside of the arm? Did I get that right? Bongs are versatile are they not. 

I seem to remember a post here saying that they were a purely defensive move, but I couldn't find it again.
I think I need more convincing of this. Bongs seem to function fine as a thrusting attack, the elbow being out weakens it some but it is immovable-isable. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Pedro


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## Eric_H (Oct 27, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Eric_H,
> 
> "In Hung Fa Yi we use two different categories of bong sao, Crane (Hok) Bong and Eagle (Yeng) bong. Crane has the elbow level with the shoulder, bent wrist and is driven by finger energy. Eagle bong the elbow must be higher than the wrist and the wrist is straight."
> 
> I like this, I like the names (it's part of the magic and the imagery. Would you be at liberty to discuss instances in which each is used in preference to the other. It appears to me at first glance that the Eagle bong is maybe using the underside of the arm? Did I get that right? Bongs are versatile are they not.



Hey MacPedro,

They're tactically totally different. Crane Bong Sao is used as a Kiu Sao (Forearm Contact) to penetrate on centerline. An example would be to Tiu Sao (Lifting Jong) up center to disconnect an opponent's punch then roll the wrist into crane bong wedging his arm further out and opening up finger strikes to the throat/face. Eagle Bong can be used as a Kiu Sao or in Chi Sao, it has more of a lifting and/or redirecting nature. One example would be to Tiu Sao, and if the opponent is crossing center with his punch so you shovel him off with a Yeng Bong.


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## mook jong man (Oct 27, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> MJM,
> 
> "But getting back to the initial movement you are 100% correct he should have tried to strike through , because even if you don't get through it actually makes the Bong Sau more effective as you get forward force into the wrist contact which keeps it there and stops the punch sliding up your arm.
> 
> ...



No I'm not going to be filming this , but I will give you an exercise that will develop the technique.

Start off with your guard up and put your front hand into Tan Sau .
Get your partner to put his wrist on your Tan Sau like it was a punch and have him lean very heavily on you.
Take as much of his force as you can down into your stance as he keeps increasing the pressure by leaning on you.
When you can't take any more , pivot sharply 45 degrees at the same time as you turn into Bong Sau with Bong Sau elbow high and the wrist low .
Imagine a beach ball in front of you and you are rotating the beach ball to make his force fall off the edge of the ball , that is the type of Bong Sau you want.
When you reach the end of your pivoting motion Lop his arm and strike in the throat with Fak sau.
If you are doing it correctly the partner should be ending up at the side of you , off balance and in position for you to drop an elbow strike onto the back of his neck.
Second part of exercise.

Same as before put your front hand in Tan Sau , this time you are going to do the technique against a real punch.
Get your partner to step back , and charge in slowly with a straight punch to your head .
Make sure he is not attacking Wing Chun style , get him to do it the way you would be attacked on the street.
As he comes into range _*pierce your Tan Sau forward slightly as you intercept the inside of his wrist.*_ this is important to make sure you keep contact with the wrist and the punch doesn't slide up your arm and hit you.
Then do the rest of the technique as explained in the earlier exercise.
There are two scenarios that can play out , either he is dead on centreline with his punch and you can't get through in which case you do the above redirect with the Bong Sau or his straight punch will be slightly off centreline which will enable you to penetrate with your Tan Sau and hit him.


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## izeqb (Oct 28, 2011)

This thread is starting to get really interesting... 

In our linage we use bong-sau only as a mean to redirect force... We never bong on purpose. Only if the force are making us do so.

That doesn't seem to be case for everyone... In fact, it sounds like you are using bong-sau, to actively redirect force... Is that correct?

For example:



> When you can't take any more , pivot sharply 45 degrees at the same time as you turn into Bong Sau with Bong Sau elbow high and the wrist low .


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## mook jong man (Oct 28, 2011)

izeqb said:


> This thread is starting to get really interesting...
> 
> In our linage we use bong-sau only as a mean to redirect force... We never bong on purpose. Only if the force are making us do so.
> 
> ...



Well sort of , it depends on the circumstances .
Experience tells me that if someone a lot bigger than me comes in hard and fast from a distance of about a metre and a half away, leaning there upper body forward and punching directly down the centreline , he is going to build up quite a bit of momentum , this is assuming that I don't thrust kick him in the groin first.

 I am probably going to have my work cut out for me trying to wedge a strike up inside his strike because remember his arm is  already on the centreline and has the advantage of all his mass going towards me at a great rate of knots.

So I am probably going to get run over if I try to oppose that much force coming at me , so why not take advantage of his momentum and committed movement by pivoting with my Bong Sau , I manage to keep my balance and stance and he ends up in a very bad position being pulled down into my waiting strike to the throat.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 28, 2011)

izeqb said:


> . . . .That doesn't seem to be case for everyone... In fact, it sounds like you are using bong-sau, to actively redirect force... Is that correct?[ QUOTE]
> 
> Of course, why not?  You attempt to do that when you roll in chi sao.  Moving your arm from tan to bong, you test your partner's position with both hand positions, and if it is weak (opening up the center) or incorrect, the bong just like the tan, changes to another hand position to strike (punch, dim jern, biu jee, whatever) or destroy their position, structure, base, whatever.
> 
> ...


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## yak sao (Oct 28, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> izeqb said:
> 
> 
> > . . . .That doesn't seem to be case for everyone... In fact, it sounds like you are using bong-sau, to actively redirect force... Is that correct?[ QUOTE]
> ...


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 28, 2011)

Sugoi!!!!! Thats really Cool


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## MacPedro (Oct 28, 2011)

Great Thread Guys, 
                          what about my other point? Is Bong Sau a purely defensive move? I think I've managed to use it effectively as an attack on my punch bag but I'm sure there's probably a good reason not to do this. Anyone shed any light? The instance where it may come into use would be to sweep away a weak defense and drive towards the torso with the same arm in one movement or something.

Pedro


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## yak sao (Oct 28, 2011)

we have a saying in our lineage that_ the bong sao never stays.
_Imagine your arm is a branch being pushed out of the way as you walk through the woods. When you release it it lashes out.
Your bong sao is the same. It is being bent into a position, but when released it should spring outward.

Also, we have a version of bong sao called biu bong, that thrusts out, striking with the forearm/elbow.


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## mook jong man (Oct 28, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> Great Thread Guys,
> what about my other point? Is Bong Sau a purely defensive move? I think I've managed to use it effectively as an attack on my punch bag but I'm sure there's probably a good reason not to do this. Anyone shed any light? The instance where it may come into use would be to sweep away a weak defense and drive towards the torso with the same arm in one movement or something.
> 
> Pedro



A Bong Sau can be used to attack as well , the Bong Sau has great capacity to unbalance the opponent .
If we take an example like Chi Sau , if I coordinate my step forward with the turning of my arm from Tan Sau to Bong Sau this can off balance the person .

As he is off balanced his structure is compromised and his defence opens up , the Bong Sau then converts into a palm strike and hits through the gap .
Of course with everything there is a counter and if he drops his Fook Sau then your attacking Bong Sau will be nullified.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 30, 2011)

yak sao said:


> . . . . A translation I have heard for bong sao that I like and use is _flanking arm
> _In fact I think all the arm/ hand positions in WC are descriptive of what is taking place not what it looks like.
> Another example, I use tan sau not as_ palm up hand _but as _dispersing hand_.



Yes, flanking arm is what the term really means.  However, just like wing arm, is it not descriptive of what the arm does.  Flanking means to be along side.  Still doesn't describe what it is doing.  I try to give my students translations that describe what the position is doing rather than what it looks like.  Then maybe someday the bulb will light up in their head and they learn to use the position properly.

Yak Sao, great analogy using the tree branch.  We use bong sao the same way.  A lot of people think of bong sao as only a defensive position, when in fact, all hand positions in Wing Chun are meant to be used as offensive or defensive.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 30, 2011)

if anyone ever asks me a question about bong sau ... to answer them i would probably refer them to this thread , really a great thread. Great insight.


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## Danny T (Oct 30, 2011)

Defensive, Offensive?? My movement can be a response to your movement based upon position as the bridge is made "or" your movement maybe the action of my movement/position after the bridge has been created. I may respond to you or I make you respond to me.


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## izeqb (Nov 2, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Yak Sao, great analogy using the tree branch.  We use bong sao the same way.  A lot of people think of bong sao as only a defensive position, when in fact, all hand positions in Wing Chun are meant to be used as offensive or defensive.



The moment the bong change, it's not a bong anymore... In the above scenario it would turn into a fak-sau or a biu-jee-sau.

However... In our linage, we also have the biu-bong... Which is very offensive and attack and not just directing force...


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## wingc (Nov 14, 2011)

Hello, at the following category of wing chun techniques you will find the bong sau basics video, where the sifu explains the bong sau perfect (for me)!!Just take a look.

http://www.wing-chun.ws/wing-chun-techniques-2/


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## izeqb (Nov 14, 2011)

izeqb said:


> However... In our linage, we also have the biu-bong... Which is very offensive and attack and not just directing force...



Sorry... I'm not really sure it's called the Biu-bong... I'm probably mixing some stuff up right now :/ Anyway... what I meant to say, was that in our linage, sometimes we also use the bong aggressively


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## wtxs (Nov 15, 2011)

izeqb said:


> Sorry... I'm not really sure it's called the Biu-bong... I'm probably mixing some stuff up right now :/ Anyway... what I meant to say, was that in our linage, sometimes we also use the bong aggressively



The Tan Sau is a punch, a cutting palm, a finger strike aka Biu Gee .....

The so called "Biu Bong" is the mirror of Tan Sou, and can be used as such.

Tan, Bong, Fook and others are but Tools of WC, and can be utilized in many ways.

What is that stupid saying ..... oh ya ... seek and you will find.  We need to look beyond what is in front of us.


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