# When Footwork in Sword Arts?



## DruBokkens (Apr 8, 2017)

Among sword arts, when does footwork training begin? Is it mainly a subject for kata, and not a part of basics like learning basic cuts, or is it included in all exercises from day one?


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## DanT (Apr 8, 2017)

Depends which art you're talking about. In CMA because they descend from battlefield skills the footwork is similar to footwork used for empty hand combat, and is taught alongside the cutting skills. It really depends on what you're talking about because the footwork and strategies depends on the type of sword you're using (a broadsword vs a katana vs a straight sword vs a hook sword) for example.


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## DruBokkens (Apr 8, 2017)

I'm sorry for not clarifying—I was asking about Japanese sword arts, especially kenjutsu and iaido. I was curious if footwork is treated separately from the very basics, especially basic cuts to allow a beginner focus just on those, or if it's introduced alongside, from the very beginning. And if it's different from school to school, or mostly consistent.


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## oaktree (Apr 8, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Among sword arts, when does footwork training begin? Is it mainly a subject for kata, and not a part of basics like learning basic cuts, or is it included in all exercises from day one?


I was taught it right from the get go after how to hold a sword. I can't think how to do was without footwork especially in two man sequence


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 8, 2017)

Generally speaking, you learn the basic sword movements first, then put footwork with it. For example, One of the first saber moves I was taught was the vertical downward slash, a very simple movement but as a beginner you still need to think about it a bit. So I practised that movement standing completely still until I could do it without thinking about it. At that point I was told to put a shuffle step into it, so I would raise the sword above my head, shuffle forwards and strike down. Rinse and repeat. From there I learned to do the movement going both forwards and backwards. 

You can of course learn it the other way around, where you practice the footwork first, and then add the strikes to it. This will achieve the same result and it's personal preference which order you learn them in. The key though (for me at least) is to isolate the footwork from the hand/sword movements before putting them together.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 8, 2017)

While this isn't for japanese sword arts, when I originally started fencing, I spent about 3 weeks (2 hours daily) learning footwork and practicing before I ever got to hold a weapon. When I've played around with people from kendo or HEMA, my footwork always gives me a pretty big advantage.


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## DruBokkens (Apr 8, 2017)

Thank you guys for your input. Does anyone know how does it work in, say, Toyama ryu or Katori Shinto? I've seen glimpses of some classes where students repeated each basic cut ten times at the beginning of the class, with proper footwork. I wonder, however, if (in most cases) brand new students learn basic cuts as isolated from the footwork, like one of you had mentioned—unless, of course, I'm trying to find consistency that isn't there, and it all differs from ryu to ryu.


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## KangTsai (Apr 9, 2017)

From what I know (not much), Katana arts focus alot on hip-movement for cuts more than stepping.


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## oaktree (Apr 9, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Thank you guys for your input. Does anyone know how does it work in, say, Toyama ryu or Katori Shinto? I've seen glimpses of some classes where students repeated each basic cut ten times at the beginning of the class, with proper footwork. I wonder, however, if (in most cases) brand new students learn basic cuts as isolated from the footwork, like one of you had mentioned—unless, of course, I'm trying to find consistency that isn't there, and it all differs from ryu to ryu.


In Katori Shinto Ryu I learned waza we did not do isolated cuts with out footwork even makiuchi has footwork when I learned it. I guess each teacher is different though I have visited other schools and did not see this(same ryuha)


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## Chris Parker (Apr 9, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Thank you guys for your input. Does anyone know how does it work in, say, Toyama ryu or Katori Shinto? I've seen glimpses of some classes where students repeated each basic cut ten times at the beginning of the class, with proper footwork. I wonder, however, if (in most cases) brand new students learn basic cuts as isolated from the footwork, like one of you had mentioned—unless, of course, I'm trying to find consistency that isn't there, and it all differs from ryu to ryu.



I'm curious as to why you would think that such actions would be done separated from footwork... sword work, as in everything else, is not powered just by the arms, but by the body, driven by the legs, and centred in the hara. As a result, to do sword work without the legs is just, well, rather pointless in most cases.

I'm also a little curious as to why you're asking... if you're training in the ryu in question (and I have some exposure to Toyama Ryu, as well as my training in other ryu-ha, including Shinto Ryu), then it's obvious... and, if not, then the particulars aren't that important to you. Do you train in ken? If so, what system do you train in?


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## DruBokkens (Apr 9, 2017)

Thank you for your reply, it makes perfect sense.

I wanted to practice kenjutsu for a long time, in fact most of my life, but never made that move because I thought I'm the last guy suitable for it. It's still going to be a while before I can begin training, so I'm curious to understand some of it while I wait.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 9, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Thank you for your reply, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> I wanted to practice kenjutsu for a long time, in fact most of my life, but never made that move because I thought I'm the last guy suitable for it. It's still going to be a while before I can begin training, so I'm curious to understand some of it while I wait.



Why do you think you are unsuitable to learning Kenjutsu?


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## MI_martialist (Apr 9, 2017)

Well, in an art, one can do as one pleases and feels the interpretation is good.  In a fight science (jutsu), then fundamentals are continually and constantly trained...footwork is a fundamental that dictates distance, which is probably the most important element in battle.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 11, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Thank you for your reply, it makes perfect sense.
> 
> I wanted to practice kenjutsu for a long time, in fact most of my life, but never made that move because I thought I'm the last guy suitable for it. It's still going to be a while before I can begin training, so I'm curious to understand some of it while I wait.



Yeah, I'm going to second the question as to why you feel you're unsuited to training in kenjutsu... I mean... your profile lists you as being 28, so I don't quite get why "its still going to be a while", assuming the reason isn't just that there's no one around to teach... and you list your occupation as "bokken-maker". How can you do that without any understanding/experience in what a properly balanced bokuto/bokken should be like? 

At the end of the day, the particular teaching and training methodology of a particular system is a part of that art... but really fairly irrelevant unless you're training in it. There is no single blue-print, no single approach that all systems dogmatically follow... so, whether you realise this or not, your entire question is kinda irrelevant to you. You cannot teach this to yourself, no matter how many videos or "glimpses of classes" you've seen.



MI_martialist said:


> Well, in an art, one can do as one pleases and feels the interpretation is good.  In a fight science (jutsu), then fundamentals are continually and constantly trained...footwork is a fundamental that dictates distance, which is probably the most important element in battle.



Er.... what?

You do get that a translation of "jutsu" (術) is "a practical art", yeah? So I'm not sure how you're distinguishing between a "jutsu" system (whatever you think that is), and an "art", here implying a martial art... and, while I'll give you that the fundamentals (kihon) are continually and constantly trained, your idea of footwork being about distance, I feel, is a bit off... it's more about other aspects, with distance being a part of certain types of footwork... and as for "the most important element in battle"... yeah... maybe less romantic fantasy in your training? You're not going into battle... especially not with a sword.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 11, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, I'm going to second the question as to why you feel you're unsuited to training in kenjutsu... I mean... your profile lists you as being 28, so I don't quite get why "its still going to be a while", assuming the reason isn't just that there's no one around to teach... and you list your occupation as "bokken-maker". How can you do that without any understanding/experience in what a properly balanced bokuto/bokken should be like?
> 
> At the end of the day, the particular teaching and training methodology of a particular system is a part of that art... but really fairly irrelevant unless you're training in it. There is no single blue-print, no single approach that all systems dogmatically follow... so, whether you realise this or not, your entire question is kinda irrelevant to you. You cannot teach this to yourself, no matter how many videos or "glimpses of classes" you've seen.
> 
> ...




So, this definition that you have given for "jutsu" is the definitive one that everyone goes by?  Jutsu has many layers of depth of meaning...A jutsu system has consequences...an "art martial" is an interpretive dance with the consequence being not getting a patch, stripe, belt, new fancy colored uniform.  That is what I am implying. "Arts Martial" has martial training backwards and upside down compared to a science training - JUTSU.

How is footwork and distance off?  How do I optimize distance?  Do I do it by not moving the body, and by moving the body strategically, one moves (works) the feet.  Of course there are other aspects, but which one is more important than distance?  So, if we do not train for battle (the potentiality of being attacked or in a fight to protect oneself or someone else), why do we train "martial" unless we really want "art" and like to dance around in our undergarments.

As for not going into battle, especially with a sword...well, what do you call a fight?  Is it not battle?  What do you call a situation in which you have to protect yourself or your loved one?  A ballet?  Not with a sword...true, but who said anything about a sword???  On the same thought, do you then believe that sword training is of no use in modern times?


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## pgsmith (Apr 12, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> Thank you guys for your input. Does anyone know how does it work in, say, Toyama ryu or Katori Shinto? I've seen glimpses of some classes where students repeated each basic cut ten times at the beginning of the class, with proper footwork. I wonder, however, if (in most cases) brand new students learn basic cuts as isolated from the footwork, like one of you had mentioned—unless, of course, I'm trying to find consistency that isn't there, and it all differs from ryu to ryu.



  It has been my experience that the Japanese sword arts are taught as a whole. The movements and actions in the beginning are large and exaggerated, and you spend the rest of your life refining and understanding these movements.

  The schools of Toyama ryu with which I am familiar are large believers in proper warm-up. The head of their organization believes that you need to work your upper body well before beginning learning in order to a) help build the proper musculature, and b) loosen your upper body so as to better use your center rather than strictly your muscles when cutting. With this in mind, they will usually do a number of repetitions of each of the basic cuts as warm-up before beginning training. This doesn't mean that they are studying the cuts without footwork though.

P.S. Bear in mind that "kenjutsu" is just a word used to describe what happens *after* your sword is drawn.


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## Hyoho (Apr 13, 2017)

DruBokkens said:


> I'm sorry for not clarifying—I was asking about Japanese sword arts, especially kenjutsu and iaido. I was curious if footwork is treated separately from the very basics, especially basic cuts to allow a beginner focus just on those, or if it's introduced alongside, from the very beginning. And if it's different from school to school, or mostly consistent.



We have saying, "Cut with the feet". Footwork is an intrinsic part as we generate power to cut with the whole body and not with upper part only. One has to develop what is called ki ken tai ichi. To use spirit/heart sword and body as one. This can vary depending on what art you do as in some the feet are placed momentarily before to be able to generate power from koshi (the hips) Without using the feet? It's not Japanese swordsmanship. The main reason for cuttting from a seated position is to learn to cut with the hips.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 14, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> So, this definition that you have given for "jutsu" is the definitive one that everyone goes by?



Well.... it's the definition that my Kanji dictionary gives... "術 - Practical Art. Primary meaning 1) a)PRACTICAL ART, technique, skill. b) technical art, technique, technology 2) magic, witchcraft"... but let's look at Jisho.org, as they often have more contextual and layered meanings and definitions.... 術 - Jisho.org
... ooh, look, the first listed definition is "art"... followed by "technique".... "skill".... 

Of course, if you want to apply a definition that doesn't match the way the word is used and applied in Japanese, or in Japanese arts, based on the teachings of your instructor, who has shown time and time again that his knowledge is highly romanticised and lacking, then hey, go for it... but expect to be corrected when his poor teachings lead you astray and you try to rely on them here... 



MI_martialist said:


> Jutsu has many layers of depth of meaning...



Sure... but not the way you are presenting them.



MI_martialist said:


> A jutsu system has consequences...



That doesn't even make sense on any level. I mean... doing something has consequences? Well... yeah.... welcome to basic physics.... 



MI_martialist said:


> an "art martial" is an interpretive dance with the consequence being not getting a patch, stripe, belt, new fancy colored uniform.  That is what I am implying. "Arts Martial" has martial training backwards and upside down compared to a science training - JUTSU.
> 
> What? Look, the only time the term "art martial" has been used is by you... in this post... so I have no idea what you think you're talking about... additionally, the only other time I've come across it is when people are speaking French... as "arte martial" is the way it's said there...
> 
> ...


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 14, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> ...
> ...  your idea of footwork being about distance, *I feel, is a bit off... it's more about other aspects*, with distance being a *part of certain types* of footwork...







MI_martialist said:


> Well, in an art, one can do as one pleases and feels the interpretation is good.  In a fight science (jutsu), then fundamentals are continually and constantly trained...footwork is a fundamental that dictates distance, which is probably the most important element in battle.



I wish MI_martialist, that you hadn't said the above underlined.  Now you make me have to agree with Chris Parker, in the bolded portion of this post.  Why would you do such a thing?    

Going from the Hapkido I learned, footwork is *very* important.  However, it is not only for distance, in fact, only peripherally so.  Mostly it about placing one's feet in such a position to facilitate countering an attack; moving to where the opponent cannot counter attack your counter attack, make it easy to turn your opponent's body or arm/leg so as to make a joint lock effortless, add momentum to a grapple, or such as that. 

As I read what you said, I interpret you saying distance in preparation for an strike-attack, or a retreat with the option for preparation for a counter-attack.  And maybe in your art or desired art, that is true.  But not in all arts.

So while in the Hapkido I learned, footwork is important, since we tend to move into an attack, distance is less important as its own over-riding concept.  It is then, more about proper placement for the success of the particular technique we wish to use.

I know little about sword use.  But the little I know, again distance kind or sorted itself out as needed, but the idea of the long trousers was to hide other aspects of where the feet were going.  Since the feet could give away an attack or defense.  Those who know more, such as Chris Parker, can correct me on that if necessary.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 14, 2017)

Medicine to the dead...medicine to the dead.


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## Hyoho (Apr 14, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Well, in an art, one can do as one pleases and feels the interpretation is good.  In a fight science (jutsu), then fundamentals are continually and constantly trained...footwork is a fundamental that dictates distance, which is probably the most important element in battle.




All distance is dictated by ma-ai. The 'timing'-distance-interval it takes to initiate a waza. It has nothing little to do with how far away someone is.  If you look at classical arts one of the main differences you will see is an exponent creating his own ma-ai to deal with anyone that enters inside it. Whereas you could perhaps describe more modern arts as two spotlights dancing around on a stage. 

The only relationship to the feet is what is described as a one step cutting distance. If someone encroaches inside your ma-ai they are technically 'dead'. You can again alter that ma ai for safety reasons but that is considered dishonest. You should "deal with it". 

The OPs original post mentions footwork in relation to swords. The subtle difference is that ma-ai is extended to the kensen of a weapon you wield as part of your body. That again depends on the length of that weapon. 

 I prefer not to relate any of these arts to "modern times". A few weeks ago someone threw a grenade at my friends car (retired marine). Didn't go off so they drew silenced pistols and shot him. Riding in tandem shooters will do this for around  200USD.


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## BrendanF (Apr 14, 2017)

pgsmith said:


> It has been my experience that the Japanese sword arts are taught as a whole. The movements and actions in the beginning are large and exaggerated, and you spend the rest of your life refining and understanding these movements.



This.  I was first taught kamae, and the essential cutting actions of my school.  Then kata was built on this foundation: "do xyz cut.. move here into abc kamae, now cut blah blah".  Obviously 'footwork' was an intrinsic component of this.  How that footwork was performed was almost immediately discussed - from both a physical perspective as well as a mental one - "make sure you're moving from xzy, with your weight abc, so you're constantly (mentally) able to blah".

I hope that's a suitably incoherent reply.. sorry, it's saturday morning.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 15, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Medicine to the dead...medicine to the dead.



Well... I don't know if you're quite at the point of being dead yet... but you're certainly quite ailing... 

Look... we've gone through this before... I don't want to tell you not to listen to your instructor.... but it does behoove you to understand that his interpretation and take on martial arts, specifically Classical Japanese ones, doesn't match what is known and understood by, well.... all other practitioners of classical arts... myself, pgsmith, and Hyoho here to name a few. So relying on it isn't really going to be the best source of credible information for you... 

Speaking of, please listen to Hyoho here:



Hyoho said:


> All distance is dictated by ma-ai. The 'timing'-distance-interval it takes to initiate a waza. It has nothing little to do with how far away someone is.  If you look at classical arts one of the main differences you will see is an exponent creating his own ma-ai to deal with anyone that enters inside it. Whereas you could perhaps describe more modern arts as two spotlights dancing around on a stage.
> 
> The only relationship to the feet is what is described as a one step cutting distance. If someone encroaches inside your ma-ai they are technically 'dead'. You can again alter that ma ai for safety reasons but that is considered dishonest. You should "deal with it".
> 
> ...



Very much this.



BrendanF said:


> This.  I was first taught kamae, and the essential cutting actions of my school.  Then kata was built on this foundation: "do xyz cut.. move here into abc kamae, now cut blah blah".  Obviously 'footwork' was an intrinsic component of this.  How that footwork was performed was almost immediately discussed - from both a physical perspective as well as a mental one - "make sure you're moving from xzy, with your weight abc, so you're constantly (mentally) able to blah".
> 
> I hope that's a suitably incoherent reply.. sorry, it's saturday morning.



Ha, hi Brendan! Yeah, very suitably coherent... I'm looking forward to seeing you all in a month or so!


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## BrendanF (Apr 16, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, hi Brendan! Yeah, very suitably coherent... I'm looking forward to seeing you all in a month or so!



Hehe cool - I was half asleep and not sure if legible.  Sounds good man, see you then!


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## MI_martialist (Apr 17, 2017)

So, if I understand...by reading a website, and an article that do not jive with your understanding, you are right and he is wrong.  On the other hand, someone with true curiosity would wonder why...why is it different?  Why is my understanding correct and the other person's not correct?  So, interesting...just because you have not been exposed to it does not mean it does not exist.

As for footwork...how does one control ma-ai?  Just out of curiosity?


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## BrendanF (Apr 18, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> So, if I understand...by reading a website, and an article that do not jive with your understanding, you are right and he is wrong.  On the other hand, someone with true curiosity would wonder why...why is it different?  Why is my understanding correct and the other person's not correct?  So, interesting...just because you have not been exposed to it does not mean it does not exist.



Being open minded is to be applauded, but there comes a time when it's not a case of "that's just your take, and mine differs".  One of the interesting things about Japanese martial arts is the balance between variety and heterogeneity, and consistency.  Although there is typically no "one rule" regarding anything in JMA, there is definitely a running theme, and consistent principles - that's why folks who have trained in (typically different) JMA can find common ground.

I had to go looking for the "difference" you refer to - having read the past threads, it is clear that you are unfortunately not training in a JMA, but are convinced that you are.  I suspect nothing anyone will say can persuade you otherwise.  Can you not see the irony in that position, given your statement above?  Have you demonstrated "true curiosity", and examined why it is that every single person with any exposure to legitimate JMA reached the conclusion that what you have learned is not legit?

Beyond the art itself from a technical standpoint - many of the things you have claimed have been historical, cultural or linguistic issues, which are easily examined.  Many of the things you have claimed just don't make sense to someone with any understanding of the language or culture.  If you take the time to study the language and culture you will realise that much of what you have been told is in fact bogus.

In other words, there's a reason not a single person here with legit JMA experience agrees with your views.. and it ain't "just because they have not been exposed to it."


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## MI_martialist (Apr 19, 2017)

Hmm...every single person holds a different view?  How about those in Japan we are in contact with?  I did not know you folks knew every single person involved in Classical Martial training.  WOW!!  I am impressed!!

By the way, I have expressed legitimate curiosity, for over 25 years.

When confronted with truth, purity, and logic, there are those who embrace it, and those who stick their head in the sand.

The core issue is a lack of understanding of what true classical martial training is...


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## Chris Parker (Apr 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Hmm...every single person holds a different view?  How about those in Japan we are in contact with?  I did not know you folks knew every single person involved in Classical Martial training.  WOW!!  I am impressed!!



Everyone with legitimate exposure to Japanese classical arts, and history, yeah. Again, if you want, I am happy to point out just how far off base John Viol is in his publicised material... cause that's the thing. He's not expressing a different view, he's just bluntly wrong in what he says about a whole mess of things. And by following what he says, you're wrong as well. Bear in mind, that's "wrong" as in "factually incorrect"...



MI_martialist said:


> By the way, I have expressed legitimate curiosity, for over 25 years.



Well, good for you. Have you also applied critical thinking?



MI_martialist said:


> When confronted with truth, purity, and logic, there are those who embrace it, and those who stick their head in the sand.



Ha! I love irony.... and they say Americans don't understand it.... 



MI_martialist said:


> The core issue is a lack of understanding of what true classical martial training is...



That is very true... of course, you might be aiming that barb in the wrong direction there....


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## MI_martialist (Apr 19, 2017)

I am so glad you know everyone who has been exposed to classical martial training...that really does answer everything.  I guess those who have trained for decades with us, those in Japan who oversee what we do, those who awarded the Licensure are among those you know who disagree with what we do.  I guess Nakamura Sensei, Hoshina Sensei, etc...are either not classically trained (I know Nakamura Sensei is not), or they for some reason have and continue to support what we do but know we are wrong...hmm...


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## BrendanF (Apr 19, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Hmm...every single person holds a different view?  How about those in Japan we are in contact with?  I did not know you folks knew every single person involved in Classical Martial training.  WOW!!  I am impressed!!
> 
> By the way, I have expressed legitimate curiosity, for over 25 years.



So I went and read the article Chris referred to.. wow.

Have you been to Japan?  Have you trained in your "sogobujutsu" there?  If it is truly a "classical martial science" can you tell me where it is from?  Which shrine and family patronised the school?  When it was founded, by whom?  Why it doesn't feature in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten?

Why is it that nothing about this "classical martial science" is consistent with other koryu bugei?  As I mentioned above, while there are definite idiosyncrasies, there are absolutely consistent features of traditional JMA, which "sogobujutsu" just doesn't exhibit.

Surely with your 25 years of curiosity you have noticed that?  Can you explain any of these things?



MI_martialist said:


> When confronted with truth, purity, and logic, there are those who embrace it, and those who stick their head in the sand.
> 
> The core issue is a lack of understanding of what true classical martial training is...



Have you spent any of those 25 years researching actual Japanese martial training?  Do you agree that they all demonstrate some consistent characteristics?

Can you actually describe any of the history of your school?  Who taught your teacher's teacher?  Who taught him/her?  As I asked above, where it's from, which shrine, family, domain etc?  Because.. every legitimate Japanese martial art I have encountered took great pride in these things.  The only schools I have encountered with strange claims like those made in the article have been modern creations, invented in the west by someone with experience in modern budo.

As I said, it is very clear nothing anyone will say can convince you of anything - I hope you enjoy your training, and wish you all the best with it.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 20, 2017)

Although I have not been to Japan, my teacher has, and other seniors have.  I know the names of my teacher's teachers, his seniors, as well as my seniors who have been training for decades.  I also interact with seniors in Japan.  I know what family "patronized" the school, etc...our heritage takes great pride in the content...our content and heritage are intertwined so there is no difference...

But, we each will say what we say...and it is ok...train as you wish, and we will continue to perpetuate true classical methods and strategies...


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## Hyoho (Apr 20, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I am so glad you know everyone who has been exposed to classical martial training...that really does answer everything.  I guess those who have trained for decades with us, those in Japan who oversee what we do, those who awarded the Licensure are among those you know who disagree with what we do.  I guess Nakamura Sensei, Hoshina Sensei, etc...are either not classically trained (I know Nakamura Sensei is not), or they for some reason have and continue to support what we do but know we are wrong...hmm...



I am based in Japan as resident. I have licences and do oversee a ryu. Nationality has nothing to do with it. We can all get good at something if we do it long enough. For the very same reason Japanese are good at sports and other things. I have good people in the West with excellent skills. You need to lose the nationality hangup. By the same token Japanese are not automatically good at things because "they are Japanese".


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## Hyoho (Apr 20, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> So, if I understand...by reading a website, and an article that do not jive with your understanding, you are right and he is wrong.  On the other hand, someone with true curiosity would wonder why...why is it different?  Why is my understanding correct and the other person's not correct?  So, interesting...just because you have not been exposed to it does not mean it does not exist.
> 
> As for footwork...how does one control ma-ai?  Just out of curiosity?


What a strange question. How about practice? Practicing with around 55 students every day of the week, morning, evening and all weekend might help. 

More to the point can you understand ma-ai with no weapon held between you? If you can do that you will be on the right track.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> I am based in Japan as resident. I have licences and do oversee a ryu. Nationality has nothing to do with it. We can all get good at something if we do it long enough. For the very same reason Japanese are good at sports and other things. I have good people in the West with excellent skills. You need to lose the nationality hangup. By the same token Japanese are not automatically good at things because "they are Japanese".



i have no idea where your idea that I am talking about nationality and what nationality is better at something.  With a leap like that, you can do a Nike commercial.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> What a strange question. How about practice? Practicing with around 55 students every day of the week, morning, evening and all weekend might help.
> 
> More to the point can you understand ma-ai with no weapon held between you? If you can do that you will be on the right track.



I train daily...thank you.


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## Hyoho (Apr 20, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> I train daily...thank you.


Then why are you asking about ma-ai?


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## MI_martialist (Apr 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Then why are you asking about ma-ai?



Well...I wasn't asking about Ma ai...I am over the conversation.  We can simply agree to disagree...you can go along with your assumptions about our training...and that is fine...better actually.  I will continue along knowing what I know, and knowing what I know about your training.


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## drop bear (Apr 20, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> I am based in Japan as resident. I have licences and do oversee a ryu. Nationality has nothing to do with it. We can all get good at something if we do it long enough. For the very same reason Japanese are good at sports and other things. I have good people in the West with excellent skills. You need to lose the nationality hangup. By the same token Japanese are not automatically good at things because "they are Japanese".



Going to suggest Japanese might be a bit better at understanding Japanese culture though.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 21, 2017)

Okay, I'm going to start being a little blunt here... as Brendan said, there's little real hope that you'll actually take any of this on board, but you really should know where we're coming from....



MI_martialist said:


> I am so glad you know everyone who has been exposed to classical martial training...that really does answer everything.  I guess those who have trained for decades with us, those in Japan who oversee what we do, those who awarded the Licensure are among those you know who disagree with what we do.  I guess Nakamura Sensei, Hoshina Sensei, etc...are either not classically trained (I know Nakamura Sensei is not), or they for some reason have and continue to support what we do but know we are wrong...hmm...



You've missed the point. The point wasn't about anyone in Japan, it was about the way that John Viol presents Japanese martial arts, particularly classical ones... as his representation of them is not historically, culturally, realistically, linguistically, or tactically correct (factually speaking). But there's something you should understand about the Japanese mentality... they don't tend to speak out if someone is doing something incorrect, except in their own teachings. A friend of mine teaches a modern created "Japanese traditional" art... created in the UK in the 60's.... which has a number of very inaccurate and incorrect aspects when compared with actual Japanese arts... he goes to Japan once a year, and trains with a number of very well known and respected teachers in a number of Japanese (and Okinawan) arts... and none of them would say anything against him, as he trains well when he is there. But taking that as acknowledgement that what he is doing is correct would be a mistake.

In other words, it doesn't matter who "supports" John in his training when he visits Japan, if he's not actually teaching what they give him.

You may need to clarify who you're talking about, though... there are quite a number of "Nakamura sensei" in Japan... it's not an overly uncommon surname... 



MI_martialist said:


> Although I have not been to Japan, my teacher has, and other seniors have.  I know the names of my teacher's teachers, his seniors, as well as my seniors who have been training for decades.  I also interact with seniors in Japan.  I know what family "patronized" the school, etc...our heritage takes great pride in the content...our content and heritage are intertwined so there is no difference...



See, that's the thing... the simple fact that the ryu in question is not being named is a huge red flag... there are only a couple of ryu named on the website, two lines of Toyama Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu (but no mention of which line, nor anything that seems to indicate any real licensing in it), and "Yagyu Ryu"... often used as a shortened version of either Yagyu Shingan (by the Araki-do group) or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but here seemingly used as a separate system. Now, within Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, it is used to sometimes refer to the non-Shinkage Ryu elements (Jubei no Jo, shuriken etc)... but, more tellingly, the term "Yagyu Ryu" is a commonly used term in fictional accounts... not an actual, genuine ryu-ha. Hmm....



MI_martialist said:


> But, we each will say what we say...and it is ok...train as you wish, and we will continue to perpetuate true classical methods and strategies...



No, you won't. You think you are, but you are, very simply, not. Not if you're following the ideas of John Viol.



MI_martialist said:


> Well...I wasn't asking about Ma ai...I am over the conversation.  We can simply agree to disagree...you can go along with your assumptions about our training...and that is fine...better actually.  I will continue along knowing what I know, and knowing what I know about your training.



You really don't know anything about Hyoho's training... but his resume is far easier to come across than John's... but, for the record, you are conversing with one of the most well credentialed non-Japanese Koryu practitioners and teachers around. He is Menkyo Kaiden in one Ryu, and is a lineage holder (head of the system) in another. His website (hyoho.com) is one of the most informative around, specifically for his ryu... and for many years, he was the voice for Westerners... and his pedigree is very well established. For example, here he is at an embu for Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu with the 11th Generation soke, Iwami Toshio (Hyoho comes out at the end...ps... have you figured out where his screen name comes from yet?):





As for the case for training, taking the provided evidence of John Viol's website, articles, interviews, and so on, well... that's far less established, and certainly far less credible.

Using the following pages (Seishinkan Original Site Start Page John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden John Viol Dai Shihan Menkyokaiden http://www.seishinkan.com/visuals/pdf/BattlegroundSogoArticle01.pdf and Anshinkan Dojo), there are huge numbers of issues, questions, and unusually vague statements and claims made... not least of all the following:
- Sogobujutsu is presented as a specific martial art, with specific founders and a specific history. This is completely incorrect, as sogobujutsu is simply a categorisation of martial art, specifically Japanese, for systems that cover a wide array of skills. It's like talking about the founder of Kenjutsu... there were many, as many as there are systems that have that categorisation.
- Mentions of the "Tsukikagemusha" of the "Yagyu-clan" working for the Shogun (as the "acknowledged founders of sogobujutsu")... I hardly know where to start with this... for one thing, there was no such thing as the "Tsukikagemusha"... they're fictional. Deal with it. Second, the Yagyu family became teachers to the Tokugawa shoguns, yeah... but teaching a non-sogobujutsu system (Shinkage Ryu)... and the implied timeline has the Yagyu family existing before the Yagyu family existed, creating a non-existent art, and working for a Shogun regime that wasn't going to be there for a few centuries at least... all with a very fantasy-based name of "Moon Shadow Warriors"... seriously? Dude... if you believe this, you're too far gone to listen to anything else... oh, and for the record, the only references to these Tsukikagemusha are all from John Viol himself... nowhere else. They simply didn't (don't) exist. It's fantasy.
- The whole bizarre take on the menkyo ranking system, again littered with romanticised and incorrect understandings of history... it doesn't really have anything to do with the Dan-i ranking system, as claimed... and it's purpose and application is completely misrepresented.
- The idea that "sogobujutsu, the Yagyu clan, the Tsukikagemusha (and so on) are very difficult to research in English... (or even for) native Japanese" is almost laughably bad in it's attempt to explain why this load of fantasy isn't supported by anything historical, or real. I mean... Japan was (and remains) one of the most beaurocratic societies around... writing down everything... so the idea that a major family, supported by the ruling families and dynasties, creating the primary forms of martial arts used by the serious warrior class... who again were the ruling classes... didn't have anything written down because "these are not for the masses" is just weak, false reasoning. All those aspects would have made these topics far, far easier to find information on, not harder... 
- The idea that John Viol is the "highest ranked classical weaponry instructor in North America" is again so easily disprovable that it's almost embarrassing the guys' still trying to pass off such a blatant falsehood. No, he's not. For one thing, there's no such thing... you don't get ranked as a "classical weaponry instructor", you get ranked in a particular system... and that rank is not equivalent to any ranking in any other system. For another, if we're going to be talking about Menkyo ranking, there were other instructors who got equivalent ranking in their systems well before John did... so his claim is just either delusional, or fraudulent.
- All of the claims of his activities being covered in Japanese media have no back up at all. His claims of performing a ritual at the "Yagyu Clan grave" is also just bizarre... 
- The talk of being an uchi-deshi three times, then not talking about exactly what that was training in, or with who ("I trained primarily in sogobujutsu, with some of my teachers"... er... kay?) is highly suspicious. For one thing, the whole idea of uchi-deshi programs (live-in) are a highly modern concept, not traditional at all, and are based more in Western (English and French) military boarding schools... and are most frequently found in Aikido and occasionally karate schools... not classical systems at all.

Look, I can go on, and on, and on here... but the simple fact is that nothing on his pages indicates much in the way of authentic training, and certainly don't indicate that, if some authentic training has been undertaken, it has been taken on board... instead, John Viol paints a picture of movie fantasy, preying on the lack of education in those who come to him. That worked okay in the 70's, and even the 80's, but even cursory research these days shows just how off all his ideas, and teachings are.

At the end of the day, though, you are free to believe whatever you want... learn from John, believe what he tells you, think that everyone else is doing it wrong... but the simple fact remains that, as soon as you post anything that is incorrect (which, if you base in on what you learn from him, it will be), you will be corrected. It's not personal, but others don't have the necessary education to see just how misleading your information can be... so, as long as you're fine being told you're wrong all the time, go for it.  



drop bear said:


> Going to suggest Japanese might be a bit better at understanding Japanese culture though.



Might I suggest you still haven't learnt who you're talking to?


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Might I suggest you still haven't learnt who you're talking to?



I have this thing, because I get this a lot. When someone asks me "Do you know who I am?"

I say "Are you one of the wiggles?"

It just makes me laugh. 

But yeah I will pretty much sass anyone.


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## Hyoho (Apr 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have this thing, because I get this a lot. When someone asks me "Do you know who I am?"
> 
> I say "Are you one of the wiggles?"
> 
> ...


Well, I never actually said who I was. I rarely do.

But 27 Dan grades, mostly taken at home in Japan. A few licences in Koryu and around 50 years in budo make me think I might have some idea that I know what I am talking about.

I only unblocked you to respond as I read your comment on a friend's pad. Back to the block so I don't need to read your asinine comments.

It might have been better if you could add some constructive comments for the OP as to the relationship of footwork and sword arts.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 21, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, I'm going to start being a little blunt here... as Brendan said, there's little real hope that you'll actually take any of this on board, but you really should know where we're coming from....
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist.  I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters.  In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 21, 2017)

MI_martialist said:


> Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist.  I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters.  In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.


Not being an expert in historical Japanese arts, I have no dog in this fight. I'm just curious - 4 all Japan Championships in what exactly?


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Well, I never actually said who I was. I rarely do.
> 
> But 27 Dan grades, mostly taken at home in Japan. A few licences in Koryu and around 50 years in budo make me think I might have some idea that I know what I am talking about.
> 
> ...



So not one of the wiggles then?

I thought this thread was about fraud busting and which japanese system was the real deal. yeah a thread on footwork would be interesting.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have this thing, because I get this a lot. When someone asks me "Do you know who I am?"
> 
> I say "Are you one of the wiggles?"
> 
> ...



You missed the point. And, again, the idea of enjoying "sassing" pretty much anyone... well... you might want to rethink that as well... 



MI_martialist said:


> Thank you so much for reinforcing that since you may not have heard of it, it cannot exist.  I guess 2 Menkyo Kaiden, PhD, high dan grades in many systems, 4 all Japan Championships, witnesses to these things, videos of him training in Japan with the people he said...none of that matters.  In fact, content is king, so these are just the things that provide content.



Okay, let's cover a few things.

I mentioned that the term "Yagyu Ryu" is commonly used to refer to either the non-Yagyu Shinkage Ryu elements taught alongside the Kenjutsu ryu... such as Jubei no Jo, shuriken, kakushibuki, and so on... and that it is also found in a number of fictionalised works. It is also occasionally used as a catch-all reference within the Arakido organisation, who teach the Edo line (also sometimes referred to as the Goto-ha) of Yagyu Shingan Ryu (Taijutsu), and the Ohtsubo line of Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. This is the important one.

Mr Viol apparently earned Menkyo Kaiden in Yagyu Shingan Ryu from the son of Muto Masao (Ishihara Masao) in 1991. That, really quite simple, straightforward piece of information should have been the first offered in defence of Mr Viol. The fact that it wasn't is rather telling. In fact, digging to find out even what that apparent Menkyo Kaiden was in in the first place takes a fair bit of effort and discovery... and, while it explains a couple of aspects of his bio, it does raise a number of pretty serious questions as to a few of his claims.

Mr Viol claims to b the "first and only non-Japanese to be admitted into elite Yagyuryu martial disciplines". Okay, that's rather patently false. For one thing, there are branch dojo of the Sendai line of Yagyu Shingan Ryu in France and Australia, with visits to these countries well and truly pre-dating Mr Viol's ranking. The line he trained in specifically (the Edo line) doesn't have any official dojo outside of Japan, but there are training groups officially in Russia, the Ukraine, and Canada, with one training group in Queensland, and with another in the process of being set up here in Melbourne (with some friends of mine), with the current headmaster of the system visiting annually for seminars teaching both Edo Yagyu Shingan Ryu and Ohtsubo Owari Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. There are also Western students in Japan, such as David Kawazu-Barber, also a senior practitioner of Negishi Ryu Shurikenjutsu.

For the record, I'm fairly familiar with the history and methods of both the Edo line and Sendai (Chikuosha) lines of the Ryu (from the outside)... and, again, from all my queries, research, questioning, reading, talking with practitioners, and so on, there is nothing to support the history as presented by John Viol. There is no mention of anything like these supposed "Tsukikagemusha", the idea of this being the "Yagyu clan" is rather amusing, because the Yagyu Shingan Ryu founder(s) and lineage are not members of the Yagyu family... the original founder (listed in both the Edo and Sendai line) was Ushu Tatewaki, who taught a number of people, including the founder of the Sendai line, Takenaga Hayato, who met and trained with Yagyu Munenori (who granted him the permission to use the Yagyu name, despite not being members of the Yagyu family). The founder of the Edo line, Araki Mataemon, learnt under Takenaga, and continued to study with Yagyu Jubei as well (this line states that it was Jubei who allowed the usage of the Yagyu name for the ryu). But no member of the Yagyu family were involved in the Yagyu Shingan Ryu as practitioners or teachers. So, again, his history is not accurately presented.

This training in Yagyu Shingan Ryu seems to be what John Viol is basing his claims of training in Japan in "Sogobujutsu"... and while, yes, YSR is a sogobujutsu system, John presents the idea of sogobujutsu as a separate, distinct, codified system... it's not. Additionally, the question holds that, if John Viol is ranked in Yagyu Shingan Ryu, why not state it? Why give it an inaccurate description, a convoluted and inaccurate history, and a lot of fantasy? If he's not teaching Yagyu Shingan Ryu, then what does the Menkyo mean?

Then we could look at the claims of representation in Japan with the All Japan Sogobujutsu Federation (Zen Nippon Sogobujutsu Renmei)... which doesn't seem to exist anywhere other than John's website... the claim of being the highest ranked classical weapons instructor in North America (do we bring up Meik Skoss, Shihan of Toda-ha Buko Ryu, part of the governing group for that Ryu, as well as being senior in Shinto Muso Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu [Yagyukai], and more? How about Phil Relnick, Menkyosha of Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu under Otake Shihan, Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso Ryu under Nishioka Tsuneo? Toby Threadgill, head of his line of Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu? I mean... he's actually the head of his Ryu... is that lower than Mr Viol's rank that he isn't even stating what it's in?), and more.... 

Look, the issue isn't that John Viol isn't trained. The issue is that he is presenting some incredibly bizarre ideas, fantasy versions of history, inaccurate descriptions, and more. There really wouldn't be any issue if he didn't mislead with his claims, such as detailed above.

Oh, and by the way, videos of John training in Japan are great... but there aren't any around that I can find. In fact, the only video I've found for anything related is for a branch dojo, based on the Toyama material... and, let's just say that it was deeply underwhelming on a number of levels.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Not being an expert in historical Japanese arts, I have no dog in this fight. I'm just curious - 4 all Japan Championships in what exactly?



According to the bio on his website:

"Four time All Japan Invitational full contact bare-knuckle fighting champion - Undefeated
-  The only non-Japanese to achieve this.
- Nicknamed Kazan (volcano) by the Japanese press for his explosive volcanic fighting nature.
- Not just an unbeatable fighter, he also won Kata, weaponry, and Enbu divisions."

Personally, I have found nothing searching for any record of this, the tournament listed (can't find a record... but without an actual name other than "All Japan Invitational", it's a bit hard to narrow down, as well as without any date listed), nothing about John Viol in any media I've found, no mention of anyone with the nickname "Kazan", in either English or Japanese searches (and it's a bit odd that his bio stresses his nickname, but omits the actual names of his ranked system, his teacher who awarded him his legitimate ranking, and so on... hmm...), so... uh... yeah.... 



drop bear said:


> So not one of the wiggles then?
> 
> I thought this thread was about fraud busting and which japanese system was the real deal. yeah a thread on footwork would be interesting.



Okay, then. What can you add in regard to ashi-sabaki in kenjutsu ryu-ha teaching, training, and study?


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## frank raud (Apr 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> You missed the point. And, again, the idea of enjoying "sassing" pretty much anyone... well... you might want to rethink that as well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Have you tried looking under "the Kumite?


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## jks9199 (Apr 22, 2017)

Gentle folk,
I think the thread started with a question about when footwork training begins when training the sword.  Perhaps we can move on from credentials and back to the discussion?


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## Hyoho (Apr 22, 2017)

Might I just quickly add that most genuine titles are earned from living in Japan and are passed down. None of this stuff is "take away". An embu is a demonstration of one abilities in public. You can't 'win' an embu. That's why it's call "embu" . I guess some people need to learn Japanese before they post or publish such things.

Spent the last few days with an uchideshi who also a member on here and also teaches HEMA. Nothing but.................. footwork in relationship to motivate the hips and a matter of not what you do but "when" you do it. 

Off to teach three international seminars this coming July. I already know that to make improvements to other students level we will be covering the same thing yet again. A weapon as an extension of yourself with ki ken tai ichi, kahanshin and ma-ai. 

I might add that Japanese footwork can be very different. Watch Japanese people walk and you will know. Also watching kabuki gives one an idea. Westerners have this strange gait. They transfer body weight from one leg to the other. Whereas Asians move like a truck on wheels. One can propel the body forwards and backwards without serious transfer of weight from one leg to the other. As I sometimes say on seminars. You all want to be Musashi but now you have to learn to walk like him.


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## MI_martialist (Apr 22, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Might I just quickly add that most genuine titles are earned from living in Japan and are passed down. None of this stuff is "take away". An embu is a demonstration of one abilities in public. You can't 'win' an embu. That's why it's call "embu" . I guess some people need to learn Japanese before they post or publish such things.
> 
> Spent the last few days with an uchideshi who also a member on here and also teaches HEMA. Nothing but.................. footwork in relationship to motivate the hips and a matter of not what you do but "when" you do it.
> 
> ...



Good for you!  I am happy you are busy!

That is all I will say about any more of this because we will never come to an understanding...


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, then. What can you add in regard to ashi-sabaki in kenjutsu ryu-ha teaching, training, and study?



You should probably defer to your instructor for those things.  Independent thoughts lead to bad habits.


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