# Palm Beach County...Florida



## ToraSame (Mar 14, 2004)

Ninjutsu class starting​

Want to learn the art of the ninja?​
Want to learn *true* self-defense?​
Want to learn how to recognize danger and avoid it?​
All this with no contracts, and only $10 dollars a class?​
Then call Sensei Bill Covington @ 561-585-0483 to get signed up today!!!!!​Or e-mail cloudgodd@stis.net​Classes are held on Saturdays, and Sundays​Classes available for:​Ages 8- 12 years 10am  12 PM​Ages 13- Adult 1pm  3pm​
Also visit www.warriorquest.com for more information​Click the Kurai Kotori Tradition(click Here)link in first paragraph.​





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## ShaolinWolf (Mar 14, 2004)

Why, OH, WHY does it have to be in Palm Beach?! why not Palm Coast?!...I'm in Daytona Beach area, well, rather Volusia County, and I'm like 45-60 minutes from Palm Coast...Not fair! LOL...oh well, Good luck.

And the lack of MA schools around Volusia County is disturbing in itself! I mean, this is Daytona Beach Area, home of Bike Week, NASCAR, and the Beach...


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## Don Roley (Mar 14, 2004)

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=16243&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


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## ToraSame (Mar 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=16243&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


Mr Roley,


I first want to say that I am glad you posted that link, why you might ask because it down the WQI dojo, no because it shows how little knowledge the discussion has, first of all I am the instructor of the school opening in Palm Beach County, so lets get that out there, second I Have known Jonin Mark Grove since he started before it was WQI, it was just simply called Kurai Kotori uji Ninjutsu, the biggest point made on the post had to do with linage, to be honest there is none, Mark created the art himself....oh and about the stuntman, he did not become a stuntman till he was training Ninjutsu almost 15 years...Also the Samurai is taught by a different instructor, as is the KunoichiJutsu...so that being said, and all being truth...I also want to give a quote from Hatsumi himself "that if it works then it's ninjutsu." so that being said, and trust me it works...I welcome you to join us in Florida for a class, or fly out to Denver, for a class, hell stay for two...then please come back to this web site, and voice your option...oh and bye the way Jonin Mark Grove has been teaching Ninjutsu longer than most of your Kans sensei have studied so you decide...


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## Don Roley (Mar 15, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> second I Have known Jonin Mark Grove since he started before it was WQI, it was just simply called Kurai Kotori uji Ninjutsu, the biggest point made on the post had to do with linage, to be honest there is none, Mark created the art himself....



So his story about being awarded a warrior name was a lie on his part? As well as the stories about being taught by a teacher of the Genin ryu?

And if he has had no training in ninjutsu before starting his own style of ninjutsu, then I guess that I can start my own Bando, Copiera or Hsing-i style.

Why bother calling it ninjutsu if he knows so little about the art as it exists in Japan? Damn, most people I know teaching the art at least bother to learn it. But I guess that holding such standards is not popular nowdays.



			
				ToraSame said:
			
		

> I also want to give a quote from Hatsumi himself "that if it works then it's ninjutsu."



Bet you can't give an exact quote and site the source.



			
				ToraSame said:
			
		

> so that being said, and trust me it works...



Have you killed someone with a sword? Have you killed anyone? Can you show me some sort of proof that your art is more effective than Tae Bo?

But you are teaching the use of the sword, correct? And Tae Bo has been used to save people from date rape, among other things.



			
				ToraSame said:
			
		

> I welcome you to join us in Florida for a class, or fly out to Denver, for a class, hell stay for two...then please come back to this web site, and voice your option...oh and bye the way Jonin Mark Grove has been teaching Ninjutsu longer than most of your Kans sensei have studied so you decide...



Ashida Kim has been teaching "ninjutsu" longer than most x-kan teachers. And probably longer than Mark Grove. So, I guess if you want to be consistent with your logiv, we can say that Ashida Kim is more respectable than Mark Grove. Heck, lets ask Ashida if what he does is effective and then use the definition you say Hatsumi gives. Do you think Ashida or his followers are going to say that their stuff is not effective?

And I enjoy digs at me that try to hint that I will not face people whom I have problems with. Nice try. I have little reason to fly out just to see you, but that fact that your group has no experience in JAPANESE ninjutsu is not relevent to me seeing you or not, does it?

The ninjutsu folder is in the _Japanese_ arts section of martialtalk. Mark Grove seems to have had no link to Japan or Japanese ninjutsu before setting himself up as the head of his own ninjutsu system. It just seems strange to me that people like the term ninjutsu so much that they want ot use it, but don't bother to learn the real stuff you find in Japan.

If you excuse me, I am going to go form my own style of Kali.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Have you killed someone with a sword? Have you killed anyone? Can you show me some sort of proof that your art is more effective than Tae Bo?
> 
> But you are teaching the use of the sword, correct? And Tae Bo has been used to save people from date rape, among other things.



Don... Im confused by that statement.  First, I'd like to point out That *I* have never killed anyone with a sword.  I do take for granted that my art is more effective than Tae Bo.  My Instructor teaches use of the sword.  HE has never killed anyone with a Sword.  Come to think of it, do you know, has Soke ever Killed anyone with a sword?  If not, Does this mean that there is no effective proof that what I am learning in the Bujinkan works?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> The ninjutsu folder is in the _Japanese_ arts section of martialtalk. Mark Grove seems to have had no link to Japan or Japanese ninjutsu before setting himself up as the head of his own ninjutsu system. It just seems strange to me that people like the term ninjutsu so much that they want ot use it, but don't bother to learn the real stuff you find in Japan.
> 
> If you excuse me, I am going to go form my own style of Kali.



It is, but it also states that all schools of Ninpo are welcome... it does not state "All Traditional KAN schools of Ninpo"  

Personally, the difference I see between this organization and CHAK, is that this guy says, "I have created this art and called it Ninjutsu" and CHAK saying "I have the true Ninjutsu passed down thru the ages" blah blah blah...

If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad. 

I've read a lot of your posts here and on Ebudo, and you have a lot of valuable insight and I enjoy a lot of your information, but you are also very agressive in a lot of your posts.  Ive seen you tear people down just for offering an opinion that differs from yours, or from knowlage that you have that is contrary to their belief.  

I'm going to ask you, respectfully, if you could possibly tone some of that agression down... at least here.  I do not want to be afraid to post a question here for fear that instead of answers, I will get a figurative board to the head.  I have been thru that on other forums, and I find it difficult to learn from what people are saying if I have to pick tidbits of information out of pages of conflict.  IMHO, That is one of the benefits to MT over so many other martial arts forums I have frequented in the past.  And I am primarily here to learn from those of you who have more experiance than I. 

Thank you.


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## Don Roley (Mar 15, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Don... Im confused by that statement.  First, I'd like to point out That *I* have never killed anyone with a sword.  I do take for granted that my art is more effective than Tae Bo.  My Instructor teaches use of the sword.  HE has never killed anyone with a Sword.  Come to think of it, do you know, has Soke ever Killed anyone with a sword?  If not, Does this mean that there is no effective proof that what I am learning in the Bujinkan works?



My point is that the sword stuff that these guys do has never been tested in combat nor based on proven traditions of sword combat. The kata and such that you learn in Japan are based on actual realities that have been proven to work. So without personal experience in using a sword to kill someone or basing your teachings off of the traditions that have survived going against others armed with swords, how the heck can you say with conviction that what you do is effective?

And you take for granted that what you do is more effective than Tae Bo. Is it? Based on what? The assurances of your teacher? EVERY guy who is teaching martial arts says that what they do is effective, even the guys that teach stuff that makes me laugh so hard milk comes out of my nose. In mny case, I trust what we do in nagase dojo based on the people who have come back to thank Nagase for teaching them something they used to save their lives. I do nto take even the Bujinkan on faith. Is there some sort of police report I can access that shows that the art was used to fight off a determined gang banger? Tae Bo has been used to defend people, but those cases are usually a case where dom guy tried somethign during a date and got more than he was willing to go through. Tae Bo will not work in the case I mentioned about the police report.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad.



Do you thnk the guys who bothered to study under the traditions created by Bruce Lee are going to treat you nicely? Do you think that without that type of background you could state with conviction what Bruce Lee probably would have wanted for his art to become?

Maybe your hypothetical art is good. I doubt it if you tried to attract students with a name  of an art you never bothered to study. But even if it was, you would not be able to comment with authority on JKD because you have no background in it.

So, by the same token, why should we who study the art of ninjutsu as it is practiced in Japan listen to some grandmaster (or his students) who has never bothered to do the same type of training we have?

If they want to talk about techniques in the general martial arts section, then that is a different story. But if you want to know about ninjutsu, you tend to look to Japan and the traditions that come from there.

Otherwise, every TKD guy who decides to call himself a ninja is to be treated with the same authority as Takamatsu. And Ashida Kim has the same qualifications as people like Mark Grove. You can't trash Kim and not Grove.


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## KennethKu (Mar 16, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> .....If I want to earn a Blackbelt in Hapkido, one in Taekwondo, and one in Kenpo and teach a style blending those together with the name "Combat JKD"... Just means my choice of names is stupid, it doesnt mean my art is bad.
> .....



Why not call it "Combat Funky Chicken Dance"?  lol

I'll tell you why. It is the greed thing. You just wanna cash in on the reputation of other people's work.  Same logic with those stooges calling their homecooking "Ninjutsu"  lol

If they had really come up with something worth a piss at, why wouldn't they patch their NAMES onto it? Why stole an established label?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 16, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And you take for granted that what you do is more effective than Tae Bo. Is it? Based on what? The assurances of your teacher? EVERY guy who is teaching martial arts says that what they do is effective, even the guys that teach stuff that makes me laugh so hard milk comes out of my nose.



Ok, that makes sense... but, then by what can we accuratly rely upon that the skills we are learning are in fact effective?  I trust what I am learning from my instructor based on comparison to past arts I have studied, and comparison to other Bujinkan schools I have attended.  

But by the same token, I also base that trust on the reputation of my instructor in the eyes of Higher ranking instructors, like Ed Martin.  Would you say that is a wrong thing to do?



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Do you thnk the guys who bothered to study under the traditions created by Bruce Lee are going to treat you nicely? Do you think that without that type of background you could state with conviction what Bruce Lee probably would have wanted for his art to become?



I'll buy that too... I guess.  I just don't see the necessity of ego thing in names, but I suppose a lot of people do.  If I went to this guy for training and he said "This is authentic Bruce Lee Style JKD" and it wasnt, I might be miffed, because he lied to me.  But if he said "Well, I created this hybrid, and call it JKD because Bruce Lee said "have no style" and I agree with him." then I would think it made sense.  But I see where you are coming from.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 16, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Why not call it "Combat Funky Chicken Dance"?  lol
> 
> I'll tell you why. It is the greed thing. You just wanna cash in on the reputation of other people's work.  Same logic with those stooges calling their homecooking "Ninjutsu"  lol
> 
> If they had really come up with something worth a piss at, why wouldn't they patch their NAMES onto it? Why stole an established label?



I'd buy this too... BUT...

Then we always hear people complain about the arrogance of people naming their arts after themselves.  I mean, would Technopunk-ryu Ninjaesque-do REALLY sound any better?  Ive heard it argued about Saito-ryu (Who DO sound a bit hokey to me) and Tew-ryu that they are arrogant for naming the Ryu after themselves.   :idunno:


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## Don Roley (Mar 16, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> If I went to this guy for training and he said "This is authentic Bruce Lee Style JKD" and it wasnt, I might be miffed, because he lied to me.  But if he said "Well, I created this hybrid, and call it JKD because Bruce Lee said "have no style" and I agree with him." then I would think it made sense.  But I see where you are coming from.



Did you read what I wrote in the thread I posted a link to? What if someone hinted or said he had trained with someone, and it turns out to be probably a lie?

I am talking about how Mark Grove claims to have gotten a Japanese warrior name. It hints that he recieved training from some sort of Mr Miyagi- type of guy and did really well in a traditional Japanese type of training.

But no Japanese would give the name "Kurai Kotori" as a warrior name. I gave one reason why in the thread above, and then later they changed their web site to cover over their flub in terms of language. I give the link to their old web site courtasy of Archive.org to prove that they are re-writting their story as it is revealed to be untrue.

And the reasons I give why the name can not be from a native Japanese aren't even the biggest ones, just the easiest for non-native speakers to confirm.

So, if you think Ashida Kim lied about his training and don't want to talk with him because of it, how do you feel about someone who seems to be lying about his training under a Japanese teacher?

Oh yeah, I can't prove that Ashida Kim's teacher never existed, but Kim never has given proof he did. I can't prove that Mark Grove never had a teacher that gave him the name he claims, but I don't see any proof and the facts seem to point to a fib.


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## Jeff Boler (Mar 19, 2004)

I'm not going to comment on Mr. Grove, or his WQI.  As far as I can tell, he doesn't claim some super ancient lineage, so he can create what he wants, just as long as he's up-front about it.

But...Is it normal for MartialTalk to allow blatant commercial advertising like this?


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## ninpokai (Mar 25, 2004)

Don,

     You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...how do you know that he has not train in what he says he has..I have read this forum and seen you at e-budo over there you talked about this being a japanese forum then I guess we shouldnt post here either since ninjutsu originated in china...or did you just not learn that...and so what if the kanji for his name mean moody little bird...maybe you when to an online translator and could not enter it properly...oh so much for holding up the virtues and princbles on Bujinkan let down everyone thats not like us whos with me....NINPOKAI


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2004)

ninpokai said:
			
		

> Don,
> 
> You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...



What do you mean "we" kemosabe? Who be you? And do you know the first thing about the historical realities of ninjutsu? I think not as you are quick to seperate samurai from ninja as if they were two casts altogether.



			
				ninpokai said:
			
		

> how do you know that he has not train in what he says he has..



How do you know he has? Here is why I do not believe him- lack of proof. For someone who is quick to say he trained under someone like Mr Miyagi, he does not seem to want to give names or post pictures. This pretty much runs counter to what I have come to expect from people who really have trained with master of their arts. Heck, even people who have little training grab important people and have their pictures taken with them in order to build up some sort of respectability.

But no pictures, no mention of these teachers, etc. Oh yeah, he wants to mention them, but not give names or proof.



			
				ninpokai said:
			
		

> I have read this forum and seen you at e-budo over there you talked about this being a japanese forum then I guess we shouldnt post here either since ninjutsu originated in china...or did you just not learn that...



Oh boy. You really know your stuff. Last I checked, ninjutsu originated in Japan. I guess that is why it uses a Japanese name. As with Japanese culture, there were a lot of Chinese influences, diluted and going through a lot of changes and evolutions. But the idea of ninjutsu being a Chinese art is just too silly for words.

Oh, did I mention that aside from being fluent in Japanese, I know a bit about Japanese history- especially about ninjutsu history. Even guys I don't get along with will admit that. You want to say ninjutsu originated in China start a seperate thread and let the fun begin.



			
				ninpokai said:
			
		

> and so what if the kanji for his name mean moody little bird...maybe you when to an online translator and could not enter it properly...oh so much for holding up the virtues and princbles on Bujinkan let down everyone thats not like us whos with me....NINPOKAI



For people just joining us, I live in Japan and read fluent Japanese. I do not need an online translator. Neither do I avoid signing my posts, eh NINPOKAI? The important point of his "warrior name" meaning moody little bird is that no native speaker would give such a name as a warrior name. Thus I tend to conclude (along with everything else I said) that Grove is lying about his personal training history. Kind of like Frank Dux lied about his days with the CIA. The fact that they redid the web site to try to cover this up after I wrote about the mistake is just frosting on the cake.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 26, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What do you mean "we" kemosabe? Who be you? And do you know the first thing about the historical realities of ninjutsu? I think not as you are quick to seperate samurai from ninja as if they were two casts altogether.



Just a quick note... Not to sidetrack the thread... 

You know a LOT of Bujinkan schools I have seen in the US do (or maybe Did is more accurate) teach this as a reality... 3 schools of ninjutsu, 6 schools of Samurai... MY first bujinkan instructor taught me that. And I have seen this distinction made in many books... (not all of them 'kan books) it was only "recently" that the truth of this was pointed out to me... I would assume a lot of people don't know beyond what they have been taught...  

Don, You have to admit, the "Historical Reality" of the ninja is pretty "hidden" from most people, and storys tend to vary... I have heard 3 versions from three 'Kan instructors, seen numerous "specials" on various "learning programs" and read several books... and none of them agree... <shrug> Which is correct?  Even the things said by Hatsumi-sensei seem to vary depending on when he said them...


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## Don Roley (Mar 26, 2004)

Yes Technopunk, I know that there is a lot of ignorance and bad information out there. As somemone who has spent several years studying Japanese history in Japan, there are things out there on the internet that make me want to scream. The bad information is easier to understand than the more complicated reality and thus gets spread faster and lasts longer.

So if someone makes a mistake like that while I am around, I tend to correct it. And the manner I do so tends to reflect the tone of the original statement. Thus if "ninpoopkai" had started out, "you know, I heard something that I want confirmed" he would get a pretty friendly response from me. But when you state things in a haughty, all- knowing tone, don't expect me to be gentle in pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the subject. :flame:


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## Bujingodai (Mar 26, 2004)

I will agree there was a pretty sanctimonious tone there, thus I do think Don was well within right to piss back. Considering the fact he lives in the home of the art and studies the history.

However I will stand by my fellow school. Mr Grove is incredibly talented. There are many accusations to his system. Well if the accusations create the kind of honourable, respectful, physically fit and capable machines he makes, works for me. Not that his system is for me, it's not. It has a certain flair that isn't conducive to my personal philosophy. However I have been to many Ninjutsu dojo, indie and "legit" by far Groves students would dance circles around 90% of them.
Mark is definatly colourful though, thats the truth. It's part of him. But he is an amazing guy. A fantastic father and a great husband.
Denver is a pricey city to visit but I hope soon to re meet with him. I had a real blast being there.


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## ninpokai (Mar 29, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yes Technopunk, I know that there is a lot of ignorance and bad information out there. As somemone who has spent several years studying Japanese history in Japan, there are things out there on the internet that make me want to scream. The bad information is easier to understand than the more complicated reality and thus gets spread faster and lasts longer.
> 
> So if someone makes a mistake like that while I am around, I tend to correct it. And the manner I do so tends to reflect the tone of the original statement. Thus if "ninpoopkai" had started out, "you know, I heard something that I want confirmed" he would get a pretty friendly response from me. But when you state things in a haughty, all- knowing tone, don't expect me to be gentle in pointing out that you don't know the first thing about the subject. :flame:


So what you are saying is dont sound like you....ok mr Riley...where is your proof? for anyone who qutes and ask for proof where is it show me where I can go to see that you know what you are talking about? oh by the way yes I have killed someone with a sword, whats your point?

signed Don John


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## Don Roley (Mar 29, 2004)

ninpokai said:
			
		

> So what you are saying is dont sound like you....ok mr Riley...where is your proof? for anyone who qutes and ask for proof where is it show me where I can go to see that you know what you are talking about? oh by the way yes I have killed someone with a sword, whats your point?
> 
> signed Don John



Anyone think that this guy is anything other than a troll? If not, I guess we can just ignore him.

But I did like the part about killing someone with a  sword. Made my day.  :uhyeah:


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## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2004)

Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?! Do you not think Don is waiting for a comment like that to rip you a new hole? Try some intelligent mature conversation. Some of us argue with Don but generally there is a code of decency to the posts.


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## Don Roley (Mar 29, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?!



Dave,
I think he is trying to pretend that he is Bujinkan. Note the word "our" in his quote, "You sure do talk a lot of stuff for 6 of our schools being housed in samurai arts...". I don't beleive him and think everything about him is false, including his name.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 29, 2004)

That we agree on.


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## ninpokai (Mar 31, 2004)

I guess Don has as much proof to show as Mr. Grove does..I guess we can all look at him and think....Hmmm I wonder if he know what he is talking about....I sure Mr. Riley your followers here and on e-budo will back you up as much as Ashida kims do him...must really bug you to be in the same class...But I guess that is what happens to those who lack Proof...Don John.


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## ninpokai (Mar 31, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Don John, what school are you from? A bonehead comment like that is what gives indies a bad name. Why perpetuate the myth that all non Kan are complete idiots?! Do you not think Don is waiting for a comment like that to rip you a new hole? Try some intelligent mature conversation. Some of us argue with Don but generally there is a code of decency to the posts.


I attend a Bujinkan school here in Japan....why does that matter? I just dont think anyone should judge anyone until you have walked a mile in there shoes...and Mr. Riley spoose "Proof this, and Proof that..." so where is his proof in his words I would like to know.....Don John


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## ninpokai (Mar 31, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> That we agree on.


BTW you sure are quick to turn tail and run Bujingodai not much to say...about anyone else backing Mark Grove do you maybe someone should let him in on this little conversation -BugeiKuden


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## Bujingodai (Mar 31, 2004)

Ninpokai, your aguements are inane. Becuase I agreed with Don that your statements are false means very little as to what Mark thinks. 
To that point what would it matter. I have feverantly defended Mark he knows how I feel about him and his school, also to that point Mark is not my keeper I can have my own opinion on topics. I am just trying to wrap around what you are saying.
If you are a Booj in Japan, then Don should know you or of you. What dojo are you a part of, Nagase.....Ishizuka tell us. So that we can tell them that you have killed with a sword before, which contradicts Booj laws. I also know because I currently still study under a Booj Shidoshi, so mile walked. 
To the indies there are few people that defend them online as much as I do. They know where I stand. And turning tail and hide, no. I think Don is an arrogant Jackwipe at times. It does not mean that I do not respect his intelligence or agree with him once in a while.

Hey Don John, it's time to come in the streetlights are on! Grow up. You sound like kid.


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## Don Roley (Mar 31, 2004)

Dave,
It is obvious ninpoopkai is a troll and not to be taken seriously. Why bother responding once everyone knows that? Let him vent. As long as I know no one will take him seriously I have no problems with it. You should be proud to be insulted by an obvious idiot like him.


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## OUMoose (Mar 31, 2004)

FYI:  I have no knowledge of Ninjitsu, but just from a general MA PoV, this was in the original post.



> Want to learn *true* self-defense?



That tipped me off right away that there was a problem...


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## ToraSame (Apr 1, 2004)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> FYI: I have no knowledge of Ninjitsu, but just from a general MA PoV, this was in the original post.
> 
> 
> 
> That tipped me off right away that there was a problem...


Why would that tip you off to a problem, I was referring to how that most MA claim to teach defense when in reality they only teach KATA or competition type fighting that are based around rules what does this got to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff?

Ninpokai - while I like the defense enough is enough they choose to walk blindly...just leave it at that...


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## ninpokai (Apr 1, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> Ninpokai - while I like the defense enough is enough they choose to walk blindly...just leave it at that...


No this is crap why should I not ask where is Don Riley's proof all he every says is where the poof, so Mr. Riley where is your proof that you know so much that GOD himself has given you that power to debunk every know Ninjutsu instructor short of Hatsumi...It is true that six schools of the Bujinkan, which I am a proud member to be, are housed in the Samurai Military arts in fact Takamatsu Himself very first training, and his blood family were Samurai...so dont go around boasting that we are such high and mighty ninja...we are not we are a cross breed between Ninja and Samurai...Like it or not that is the way it is...to bad you do not choose to see your own reality, but it does explain you actions here and on other boards...and you can Debunk me all you want... one day people will find out you are really nothing but some Fat PC geek sitting behind a pile of books, and a keyboard. But that is sad that you dont even know that...The way is true to the insightful.


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## Taimishu (Apr 1, 2004)

I have read this and other threads like it and my main problem seems to be that every MA is professed to be the greatest by its adherants.
Now I dont know and have no intention of trying to say which is best just that I feel that every MA has something to teach and every instructor, yes even Ashida Kim, has a point.
In my case I train in Iaido and admit that it has merit as self defense in extremely limited circumstances ( I dont wear my Katana in the street) but it might be of use within those limited circumstances.

Also my instructor had slightly unclear lineage as far as credentials went, so what he was able to teach me and others in safety and to a reasonable standard. Whether the Japanese masters would say it was correct is another point but as I am unlikely to go to Japan or see any of the masters here I am happy with what I have learnt.

My point that as long as the people who are being taught are happy and they know that their art is not the greatest thing since ice cream what is it to do with us.

Ok sorry for the rant but dont we have better things to do?

( puts on Nomex suit)

David


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## heretic888 (Apr 1, 2004)

> Why would that tip you off to a problem, I was referring to how that most MA claim to teach defense when in reality they only teach KATA or competition type fighting that are based around rules what does this got to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff?



What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense?? Or, would you make the claim that the training of the various Japanese koryu, which have been tested through the years of civil wars in that country, is just "playing around"??   



> No this is crap why should I not ask where is Don Riley's proof all he every says is where the poof, so Mr. Riley where is your proof that you know so much that GOD himself has given you that power to debunk every know Ninjutsu instructor short of Hatsumi...It is true that six schools of the Bujinkan, which I am a proud member to be, are housed in the Samurai Military arts in fact Takamatsu Himself very first training, and his blood family were Samurai...so dont go around boasting that we are such high and mighty ninja...we are not we are a cross breed between Ninja and Samurai...Like it or not that is the way it is...to bad you do not choose to see your own reality, but it does explain you actions here and on other boards...and you can Debunk me all you want... one day people will find out you are really nothing but some Fat PC geek sitting behind a pile of books, and a keyboard. But that is sad that you dont even know that...The way is true to the insightful.



OH. MY. GOD.  :mst:


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## ToraSame (Apr 1, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense?? Or, would you make the claim that the training of the various Japanese koryu, which have been tested through the years of civil wars in that country, is just "playing around"??


my problem with kata is that it teaches you that those 2,3,4 or 5 players will be attacking that way all the time...and I disagree with that you should train to expect various attacks not a front kick from the first uke, a punch from the uke behind you, then a spinning kick from the uke to the left of you...when in reality they are all going to jump you at the same time....but that is IMO if you feel what you are learning now keeps you alive on the street then good, my only point was that I feel Kata and competition type techniques will not protect you from 5 people jumping you all at the same time use whatever pops into there mind...but once again that is my opinion and has nothing to do with weather or not mark knows his stuff...


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## heretic888 (Apr 1, 2004)

> my problem with kata is that it teaches you that those 2,3,4 or 5 players will be attacking that way all the time...and I disagree with that you should train to expect various attacks not a front kick from the first uke, a punch from the uke behind you, then a spinning kick from the uke to the left of you...when in reality they are all going to jump you at the same time....but that is IMO if you feel what you are learning now keeps you alive on the street then good, my only point was that I feel Kata and competition type techniques will not protect you from 5 people jumping you all at the same time use whatever pops into there mind...



No offense, man, but it doesn't sound to me like you've been taught "the kata method" very well. I don't know of any good teacher that would actually present kata as "how you and your opponents will actually move in a fight". Their tools to teach principles of movement, not self-defense scenarios.

Of course, this is also just my opinion.  :asian:


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## ToraSame (Apr 2, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> What makes you think that kata training has nothing to do with self-defense??


didn't you just say this ^^^^



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> Their tools to teach principles of movement, not self-defense scenarios.


Then you say this^^^^, personally I have not done kata since I was very young and remember it be a laid out scenario, and never once did it help defend my butt on the street, when I took Ninjutsu, for many years, any fight I got into which were very few thanks to the teachings I learned awareness, I was able to save myself, in what any other art I surly would have been mesmerized by the first strike, if it hadn't been for my training...I am not trying to down any other art, all I was say is most other art(other than ninjutsu) not all, but most really do not teach you to defend yourself in a reality based scenario..unfortunately every one feels the Mark grove does not know what he is talking about, and visiting the site, if I had never trained with him I would probably agree, I feel the way the site is laid out he sets himself up for all of your miscalculations...but the in class training is not totally what you see on the site...yes the site is flashy, and yes Mark can do all of that, and if anyone wanted to learn it they could, but the Kurai Kotori system is not housed around the flashiness it really is a good system...but until you go and see for yourself I am wasting my breath...it really is too bad that people here and at other forums judge what they do not know...and never have seen for themselves...why would Dave Gibb a budo taijutsu dojo instructor get on line and say yes Mark is good at what he does, and his student kick butt, come on guys really he is a BUJINKAN INSTRUCTOR does this not add up for you...there are definitely too many *sheep* on the Internet today that follow the leader in fear of repercussions, rather than actually learning for themselves but hey, really it is your loss not mine...


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Wow,
That last post by Torasame reminds me a lot of this article by Martialtalk member Phil Elmore. He even used almost the exact same language about sheep that Sharp Hil uses in this article as well.

I would jus tlike to point out that the way Torasame (which does not mean Tiger Shark as he says) uses the term "kata" is the way it used in Karate and such, not the way that Japanese ninjutsu uses the terms. It would kid of be nice if the people who decide that they like what see in ninjutsu that they use the term without formal training would at least use the same terminology if they are going to bless us with their wisdom.


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## Bujingodai (Apr 2, 2004)

Just to clear something up, though I am a Yudansha in the Kan, and alot of what I do and show is what I did in the Kan, and still train in. I am not a liscenced Bujinkan instructor.

Not yet.


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## Don Roley (Apr 2, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Just to clear something up, though I am a Yudansha in the Kan, and alot of what I do and show is what I did in the Kan, and still train in. I am not a liscenced Bujinkan instructor.
> 
> Not yet.



Of course Dave, you not having a liscense to even teach in the Bujinkan and yet starting your own style is going ot set you up for some slams. I thought you had a shidoshi-ho. You might want to ask the guy you consider your Bujinkan instructor to give you one if you and he (she) feels yo are worthy.

On the other hand, since you are not qualified to teach Bujinkan, it is kind of admirable that you don't try to attach the Bujinkan name to it. I go off on people that add things to what Hatsumi teaches but still call it Bujinkan. I, of course, would prefer that you use a different name that does not resemble the Bujinkan name and call it something like Goshinjutsu, or just "Dave style."


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## Bujingodai (Apr 3, 2004)

OK those are fair enough points. I accept that. Mind you the style sort of came together, I won't be so bold as to state that I formed a system. I am just not that experienced, I am still very much learning. I did form the school format and organized the "system" so to speak. I do believe I am set apart in the indie sense, the term Ninjustu to me I am attached to in spirit and train that way. As well as I can.

Now the other thread was locked but I will answer here. It really doesn't matter what I think of these schools. Really. It's just my opinion, very little I defend until I have met with them. Or seen them. There are some indie schools that personally disgust me, some depress me. I won't slam them but I won't defend them. I have never trained in Saito. I know Steve from my board,, there he is always polite and intelligent. Ken I do not know. Now yes he was getting very colourful and irrational at times, but combating you in a war of words can get a bit hot for the defence. I speak from experience.

In all honesty, I have seen as much corruption, misrepresentation, crap skill, back-stabbing etc etc in the Bujinkan. Much of the time I think the warrior training hall needs to clean it's own act up before attacking others. but that is my personal experience. I have trained in many Kan dojo, and 1 or 2 Genbukan. 
It always blew me away and the lack of consistancy in the dojo, format difference, politics and the amout they all hated each other. 
When I went to the Tai kai I saw Shihan on stage, that personally moved like orange belts. I am no expert but it was embarrassing.

So all the problems that occur in the indie groups are very much prevalent in the kan with the exception of the lineage proof issue. Such is why I do not claim it. That really sets yourself up for a pile.
I however regardless of group will always meet them first, If you wish I will send you an email with my personal view of all the ones I have met. 

For example, Sensei Mike Stimmler. In Gettysburg. I am meeting him in May, he is 10 mins from my teacher whom I am off to see at the same time. He doesn't claim to have a teacher, he claims to have researched it and so on. OK I can see where that will draw critique no doubts. But i still want to meet him and get my own opinion. He may be a super cool guy who hasn't a clue, he may be very good, he may be an ***. So far he seems really nice. But we'll see right?

Some of the people that have been attacked on E-Budo like Jackson Wagner, who never claimed Ninjutsu, only that some Ninjutsu elements were in some of the sword systems he learned. I have trained with Jackson on multiple occasions and would love to see a detractor come at him on the mats for the "real" proof. He is without a doubt the most effective MA'st I have met. I have seen the video proof of his teaching liscence from Obata and Kimeda as well.

But again that is my opinion.


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## Don Roley (Apr 3, 2004)

Bujingodai said:
			
		

> Ken I do not know. Now yes he was getting very colourful and irrational at times, but combating you in a war of words can get a bit hot for the defence. I speak from experience.



Dave,
The other thread was closed for a reason and I don't think we should be spreading gasoline here just after the last one was snuffed out. So I am not going to respond to a lot of what you wrote other than the above quote. 

I can tell you with complete honesty that no matter how hot the screaming matches between you and me got, you never, _ever_ acted unstable, decietfully or dishonorably. 

We don't exactly get along, but I have to say that you fill none of the profiles Sharp Phil wrote, which is probably why he took the time to review and praise that tape you sent him.


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## ToraSame (Apr 3, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Wow,
> That last post by Torasame reminds me a lot of this article by Martialtalk member Phil Elmore. He even used almost the exact same language about sheep that Sharp Hil uses in this article as well.
> 
> I would jus tlike to point out that the way Torasame (which does not mean Tiger Shark as he says) uses the term "kata" is the way it used in Karate and such, not the way that Japanese ninjutsu uses the terms. It would kid of be nice if the people who decide that they like what see in ninjutsu that they use the term without formal training would at least use the same terminology if they are going to bless us with their wisdom.


The shepard speaks again^^^....First of all yes torasame dose mean TigerShark Tora- Tiger Same-Shark, but whatever...Second I used none of the terms out lined in that article...and furthermore have never agreed with anything you have said...but you know you kinda sound a lot like those the they were talking about in the atricle, but whatever...Never once did I say I grew up on the mean streets, or anything like that I was only refering to Ninjutsu being a reality based MA or are you saying it's not....man really check yourself...Bill


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## Don Roley (Apr 3, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> personally I have not done kata since I was very young and remember it be a laid out scenario, and never once did it help defend my butt on the street,





			
				ToraSame said:
			
		

> Never once did I say I grew up on the mean streets, or anything like that I was only refering to Ninjutsu being a reality based MA



Just keeping things clear.



			
				ToraSame said:
			
		

> First of all yes torasame dose mean TigerShark Tora- Tiger Same-Shark, but whatever...



You seem to be kind of used to dealing with things at a very shallow level instead of going deeply into a subject before declaring yourself correct. In this case, Tora does mean tiger, and same shark, but when you are talking about a Tiger Shark (Galeocerdo cuvier) the Japanese do not use the term. And I am not going to tell a _master of Japanese_ such as yourself since you obviously know the subject matter as well as you seem to know things like what kata is about.

As you said, whatever.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 3, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Just keeping things clear.
> In this case, Tora does mean tiger, and same shark, but when you are talking about a Tiger Shark (Galeocerdo cuvier) the Japanese do not use the term.



ToraSame, 

I'm going to agree here... even with my very limited Japanese this does seem wrong... It's almost like a non native english speaking  person were to call themselves "Rapier Trout" and say it meant "Swordfish"

"Tiger" is one word in Japanese.

"Shark" is one word in Japanese

"Tigershark" would be a Third word in japanese, not a combination of the first two words.


But, Don, I have to agree with ToraSame also...

"Torasame" means tiger shark.  Just in Engrish, not Japanese.

Now that *I* have cleared that up, can we move on to more productive discussion?


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## ToraSame (Apr 4, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> ToraSame,
> 
> I'm going to agree here... even with my very limited Japanese this does seem wrong... It's almost like a non native english speaking person were to call themselves "Rapier Trout" and say it meant "Swordfish"
> 
> ...


Ok I understand what you are saying, but as is most techniques in ninjutsu take tsuki iri in hatsumi  stick fight book on staff weapon considering this  a hanbo waza tsuki iri does not even come close to "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" it simply translated as inward thrust I believe...but since this truly has no reflection on weather or not I know my stuff...I guess to go by that all names in martial arts mean what they translating or you dont know what you are talking about, I would have to say then that you are claming that Hatsumi Sensei doesn't either...we know that is not the case but just want to point out your logic...but once again whatever...ToraSame Tiger Shark.....Bill


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## Don Roley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wow what convoluted....._logic._  :uhyeah: 

Getting caught in making a mistake in Japanese after you claimed it was correct and then trying to hint that Hatsumi makes the same kid of mistakes is probably very low on the ways I would suggest for getting on the good side of the practicioners of the arts that are known in Japan as ninjutsu.

But of course the point I wqs trying to make (and you do not seem to be able to understand) is that you try to use the same terms, jargon, etc, but really have little in common with the Japanese arts known as ninjutsu. Your definition of the term is a little loose and lets anyone who studies TKD and decides to proclaim themself a ninjutsu founder to do so. 

In the future, I can see that we in the ninjutsu folder will be probably talking about spinning back kicks and Gracie submission holds instead of things like kuzushi and nagare.


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## ToraSame (Apr 5, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Wow what convoluted....._logic._ :uhyeah:
> 
> Getting caught in making a mistake in Japanese after you claimed it was correct and then trying to hint that Hatsumi makes the same kid of mistakes is probably very low on the ways I would suggest for getting on the good side of the practicioners of the arts that are known in Japan as ninjutsu.
> 
> ...


no need to get so upset all I was saying is in ninjutsu things very rarely translate exactly the way they are spoken...and if you were a ninjutsu practitioner you probably would know that, instead you do nothing but insult those who disagree with you...but hey to each his own...and like I said whatever...TORASAME(TIGERSHARK)


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## Cryozombie (Apr 5, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> no need to get so upset all I was saying is in ninjutsu things very rarely translate exactly the way they are spoken...and if you were a ninjutsu practitioner you probably would know that, instead you do nothing but insult those who disagree with you...but hey to each his own...and like I said whatever...TORASAME(TIGERSHARK)



Actually that is true of many arts... in Kempo, they have techniques whos names translate to "Calming the Storm", but they are not LITERALY Calming down a thunderstorm, just as in Ninpo we have techniques that translate as "Throwing a Big Rock" which do not literally mean we are throwing a rock...

Comparing Descriptive translations and grammatical errors are not the same thing... Your argument would make more sense if you had said that in Ninpo we practice technique who's names say "Tossing off a Biggest Boldereything" 

It says the same thing, it's just poor grammar.


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## ToraSame (Apr 5, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Actually that is true of many arts... in Kempo, they have techniques whos names translate to "Calming the Storm", but they are not LITERALY Calming down a thunderstorm, just as in Ninpo we have techniques that translate as "Throwing a Big Rock" which do not literally mean we are throwing a rock...
> 
> Comparing Descriptive translations and grammatical errors are not the same thing... Your argument would make more sense if you had said that in Ninpo we practice technique who's names say "Tossing off a Biggest Boldereything"
> 
> It says the same thing, it's just poor grammar.


Actually Technopunk you are misunderstanding what I am saying, what I said was for instance in the book stick fighting there is a technique named "Tsuki iri" and in the book the technique is called "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" when the actual translation of Tsuki iri is entering thrust, I was pointing out that the Japanese name that Hatsumi sensei used for the technique does not translate to what the English version of the name for that technique as does ToraSame translate to TigerShark, it works with just about anything, in ninjutsu, and I believe the reason for this was explained by Hatsumi sensei at one time when he said that ninjutsu names are spoken in code so that the lamen would not know what was being said...it dates back centurys but I do not know where exactly I read this...but that should explain what I was trying to say...TORASAME


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## Cryozombie (Apr 5, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> Actually Technopunk you are misunderstanding what I am saying, what I said was for instance in the book stick fighting there is a technique named "Tsuki iri" and in the book the technique is called "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" when the actual translation of Tsuki iri is entering thrust, I was pointing out that the Japanese name that Hatsumi sensei used for the technique does not translate to what the English version of the name for that technique as does ToraSame translate to TigerShark, it works with just about anything, in ninjutsu, and I believe the reason for this was explained by Hatsumi sensei at one time when he said that ninjutsu names are spoken in code so that the lamen would not know what was being said...it dates back centurys but I do not know where exactly I read this...but that should explain what I was trying to say...TORASAME



Im sorry, your explaination still confuses me... So What you are saying is "tigershark" is a bad translation of "Torasame", like "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" is a bad translation of "Tsuki iri,"  and not in fact just poor grammar?

Hmmm.  That sounds WORSE than just saying its an Engrish translation... But thats just me.  Personaly, I don't care if you call yourself "torasame" "Tigershark" "Bob" or "Tony"... I was just agreeing with Don that I didnt think using "torasame" was using the "correct" japanese.


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## ToraSame (Apr 5, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Im sorry, your explaination still confuses me... So What you are saying is "tigershark" is a bad translation of "Torasame", like "inserting the stick between the arm and the body" is a bad translation of "Tsuki iri," and not in fact just poor grammar?
> 
> Hmmm. That sounds WORSE than just saying its an Engrish translation... But thats just me. Personaly, I don't care if you call yourself "torasame" "Tigershark" "Bob" or "Tony"... I was just agreeing with Don that I didnt think using "torasame" was using the "correct" japanese.


you know I was going to try and explain this again but have desided it isn't worth my time...wrong japanese whatever...it just doesn't matter and I am wasting valuble time with the local forum shepard...and the local forum sheep...so later have fun read you books and follow blindly...ToraSame...


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## Cryozombie (Apr 6, 2004)

ToraSame said:
			
		

> you know I was going to try and explain this again but have desided it isn't worth my time...wrong japanese whatever...it just doesn't matter and I am wasting valuble time with the local forum shepard...and the local forum sheep...so later have fun read you books and follow blindly...ToraSame...



You know, I wasn't attacking you, I was commenting on your poor use of a language you are very obviously lacking ANY knowledge of... a factual mistake, and you chose to make it a personal attack?

Think VERY VERY carefully first... You want to switch this discussion to Japanese?  I will be happy to use my VERY VERY limited ability in it to humiliate your COMPLETE lack of knowledge.  STOP now.  And my "Japanese" didnt come from a book, it came from a PERSON.  FLUENT in the language, as her and her family CAME from Japan.  Not that you would know what a woman was.


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## Cthulhu (Apr 6, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> Why, OH, WHY does it have to be in Palm Beach?! why not Palm Coast?!...I'm in Daytona Beach area, well, rather Volusia County, and I'm like 45-60 minutes from Palm Coast...Not fair! LOL...oh well, Good luck.
> 
> And the lack of MA schools around Volusia County is disturbing in itself! I mean, this is Daytona Beach Area, home of Bike Week, NASCAR, and the Beach...




Still a ways away, but closer than Palm Beach, is Dick Severance in Brevard County.  I think his Web site is being redone, but there is still some info up at: http://www.n-i-n.com/index.html

Cthulhu


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