# groin strike effectiveness



## lonecoyote

I have read various posts on this board and others by people who say that they have firsthand experience of hard groin strikes not working. Even people who say they have gone on and won street fights, after taking a hard groin strike. Cobra even started a thread about taking a groin shot on purpose. I have taken a few really hard accidental kicks in the groin in the dojo and given a couple too, and while I understand it might not end a fight, as part of a combination it would definitely have an effect. Thing about it to me is not just the initial pain, but the really heavy feeling in the legs, like someone has poured molten lead in them, and also the loss of wind, making you feel out of gas. What causes this? anyway, strikes to the groin are definitely part of my emergency arsenal. Does anyone out there not believe groin strikes are effective? Why or why not? How about effective in combinations of other techniques?


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## Kane

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I have read various posts on this board and others by people who say that they have firsthand experience of hard groin strikes not working. Even people who say they have gone on and won street fights, after taking a hard groin strike. Cobra even started a thread about taking a groin shot on purpose. I have taken a few really hard accidental kicks in the groin in the dojo and given a couple too, and while I understand it might not end a fight, as part of a combination it would definitely have an effect. Thing about it to me is not just the initial pain, but the really heavy feeling in the legs, like someone has poured molten lead in them, and also the loss of wind, making you feel out of gas. What causes this? anyway, strikes to the groin are definitely part of my emergency arsenal. Does anyone out there not believe groin strikes are effective? Why or why not? How about effective in combinations of other techniques?


It is effective to a certain extent. It might somehow depend on an individual. For me, groin strikes hurt for a little while but they never paralyze me. I can get over them rather quickly but it is very painful none matter what to be hit there.

I would say squeezing the groin is more effective than hitting the groin. If you sqeeze the groin long enough you can very much subdue the attacker enough for an escape.


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## Flatlander

The way that I look at it, a groin strike shouldn't be looked at as an ender, rather, as a door opener.  You go high, he's covered, switch to low, groin strike, arms drop.  Or whatever.  Use it to gain that split second where his mind is on the boys, and keep working.


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## bignick

I posted this in another thread and thought i would restate it



> i highly doubt the ability of anyone to control a groin shot...to avoid it...yes...guys are trained from birth to protect that area..and we can cross our legs at the speed of light to avoid taking a shot there...
> 
> however...in a real life fight situation...your body goes into fight or flight response as we all know...but one of the things the body does is the scrotum pulls up to help protect the testicles...in this position...if you get kicked in the groin...the testicles may just get kicked up into the body...which hurts...but isn't nearly as debilatating as a normal groin shot...not to mention the effects of adrenaline overriding pain....


this info comes straight from my jujutsu instructor, who has a masters degree and teaches anatomy and physiology...."crush the testicles...they'll be in shock in less than a second...and without treatment they'll most likely die of shock"


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## Thesemindz

I used to doubt the validity of people claiming they were unaffected by the pain of a groin strike. In fact, I knew of a TKD practioner who was telling people that at his school they trained to ignore the pain, which always made me wonder exactly what such training could consist of, and tempted me to ask if I could test his claims. However, after training for several years and getting hit many times, I would say that while it's still incredibly painful, I can often ignore the pain and continue what I'm doing. For instance, I've been hit while teaching classes and continued teaching without reacting to the pain so that the student wouldn't feel self conscious. I've also been hit while training in street clothes and just shrugged it off. It's not that it didn't hurt. It hurt. I just put it aside and continued with what I was doing. Of course I think this also has to do with the degree of force applied. The soft kill hurts, but I think we can generally ignore it if we try. If someone were to grab, squeeze, and twist? I think I'd probably pray that I passed out before I died. 

I don't mean to sound like I'm bragging by any stretch, and in fact, I'm still irritated by the guys who act like they could take a sledge to the stones and smile, but I think that with proper focus you can keep it from stopping you. None the less, you still notice it, and that distraction might be enough to create an additional opening. I still train and use groin strikes, but I feel that I'm more aware of their potential now. To me, this is similar to eye strikes. I used to think these were devestating, but I've been hit in the eye many times and continued fighting, even if I had to close one or both eyes. I saw one of our instructors take a finger two inches into the eye on accident, and he was able to shrug it off because it slid around the eye and didn't cause any damage to the eye itself. Again, I'll poke a person in the eye, but I don't put all my money on that strike winning the fight.


-Rob


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## Disco

Well, I guess that the UFC fight I watched last night was flawed. Two totally in shape, hard core fighters, wearing protection and one of the guys took a low kick to the groin and could not continue. Ref called time and he was given enough time to recover. I've said this before on other threads that had a tie in to this same subject and I'll say it again now.... A good groin shot will stop people dead in their tracks. Can some recover faster than other's? Of course, were all not equal. But as pointed out, it opens the door for additional strikes to those that do recover faster. In all my years, I have never seen anybody get hit in the groin and be able to recover fast enough to protect themselves from further onslaught. If trained fighters wearing protecting can't continue after being struck, the average person in the street is no match for it then.


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## Blindside

My brother-in-law has been a bouncer for years and has a rather silly number of scars to show for it.

During one altercation he was struck with a full-on knee to the groin, he finished his fight, and said he didn't really feel the pain until he was driving home later.  As a result of that hit, he can't have kids, the internal damage to his testicles caused scarring, but it didn't stop him, or even really slow him down.  

One kenpo instructor related a story about striking a man in the groin and he didn't even slow down, so he bailed out of the situation.  Later that night the "other guy" went into shock and was taken to the hospital.  Sure it stopped him, about an hour after it would have mattered....

I don't count on the groin kick, people are tough.

Lamont


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## TChase

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Does anyone out there not believe groin strikes are effective? Why or why not? How about effective in combinations of other techniques?


I think it all depends on the intent of your attack.  In the Kenpo I study we don't rely on pain compliance.  Pain is a mindset.  No two people feel pain the same way.  And in reality when you factor in all the variables such as drugs, alcohol, adrenalin, mental condition, physical conditioning, and even different types of clothing, the success rate of pain compliance drops considerably.  

I don't want the success of my attack to depend on my enemies mindset.  I want it to depend on involuntary mechanical reactions that I specifically cause.  Which then leads to me dominating the enemies space.  The pain caused is just a bonus.


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## SenseiBear

Some people they work well on, others, not so well.  Some are debilitating, some are not.  If you are used to taking contact, and groin shots in particular, there is a lower chance of a groin strike being debilitating.  There were a few years where it seemed I couldn't get through a class without getting hit/kicked in the groin...  rarely do they slow me much anymore - however, whether a blow makes contact or not, I still jerk and try to cover, as most men do...  so as an opener of targets, it is still effective.

Train without a cup.  It makes you more careful.  If someone asks "are you wearing a cup?", they are really asking, "can I hit you in the groin, hard?


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## Paul Genge

In my experience attacking the groin can be effective, but there are a lot of variables that can affect weither it works or not. I have seen people with a positive mind set and a little alchohol shrug off kicks to the groin and continue to fight.

Also there is the flinch reflex that all boys develop from the first occassion that one of their school mates find it funny to kick them in the nuts.  Most of have unfortunately been there and know that the body takes particular care to protect that area by either getting it out of the way or by covering up using the thighs.

Clothing is another factor that can literaly get in the way of attacking the groin.  Tight fitting underwear and tight denim jeans can make your opponents nuts the most difficult thing to get hold of, if your are of a mind to do so.

The one thing you can rely on is that subconciously no man likes the idea of being kicked in the groin.  One tactic that is very reliable against a committed attack is to kick honestly at the groin as they come towards you.  It really is a win / win situation. If you hit them in the groin you will cause them to either double because their hips have been knocked backwards or with pain   If you do not hit them it will be because of some instinctual reaction on their part.  

When this happens often the groin trys to stop coming forward, but the momentum of the rest of the body  continues in that direction.  They then end up bent over at the waist.  Some people will try to cross their legs causing them to trip themselves up or to contort into a disadvantaged position.  I have not yet seen some one try to block the kick aside.  The reason for this is probably because their mind does not have time to react that way.  Also if you time it right the attack should have reached a point where is is committed.  The skill is really in recognising the openings that this tactic creates and them using them.

Paul Gengehttp://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## MJS

flatlander said:
			
		

> The way that I look at it, a groin strike shouldn't be looked at as an ender, rather, as a door opener.  You go high, he's covered, switch to low, groin strike, arms drop.  Or whatever.  Use it to gain that split second where his mind is on the boys, and keep working.



I agree with this statement!  I'm not a fan of the 1 shot 1 kill mentality.  Why stop with just 1 shot??  Instead, like Flatlander said, use it as an opener to other things.  

Disco was talking about the UFC.  I agree with his comment as well.  You see it all the time in the UFC and in boxing.  Keep in mind that it does not have to be the ender, but if it at least gives the person something else to think about, again, it opens the door for a ton of other things.

Mike


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## Kenpodoc

bignick said:
			
		

> I posted this in another thread and thought i would restate it
> 
> 
> this info comes straight from my jujutsu instructor, who has a masters degree and teaches anatomy and physiology...."crush the testicles...they'll be in shock in less than a second...and without treatment they'll most likely die of shock"


Not True.  They won't die,  but they might wish they had.  Adrenalin is an amazing drug.  In a combat state of mind people don't notice injuries that would normally disable.  The only sure instant stopper is cutting off circulation to the brain.  A lot of guys act like their brains are in their pants but its not true. :asian:   

Jeff


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## bignick

actually if you read back you'll see another post where someone that was hit in the groin went into shock...if you go into shock and aren't treated...there's a good chance you could die


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## lonecoyote

I couldn't agree more that it shouldn't be the only shot, one shot one kill, but part of a combination of shots. I knew the talk would turn to adrenaline and its effects on blocking pain. What I've noticed, entirely apart from the pain response is that a really good hard shot to the groin has other effects besides pain, like the heavy legged feeling and the loss of wind. It slows you, might not stop you but it slows you. I'm sure adrenaline will mitigate these effects as well to some degree. I don't want to start something here, but adrenalin doesn't make you superman. I could break your collarbone with a roofing hammer and adrenalin might mask pain to an extent and keep you going, but after a certain point you will be too damaged to continue no matter how much you have flowing in your veins. Paul Genge's thoughts are incredibly insightful and amazing, as always.


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## lonecoyote

And be careful not to run into the guy from the Steve Martin movie "The Jerk" I believe his name was Iron B--ls McGinty.


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## tshadowchaser

Groin strikes have been know to kill people from shock.

A well placed groin strike will slow most people down.

Some people may be able to take one and fight on, that may be because of adreniline or a shot not on target, but I think most will feel the effects.


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## AnimEdge

if you get in 2 good shots there puke 
nice combo: groin shot, hit to throat to make it swell, hit to groin again causing them to puke and drown them self  learned that in ninujutsu


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## Rick Wade

I agree that groin shots are not a fight ender.  I use groin shots to dispace the the hip and control the opponents hight, creating a moment of shock and then I can execute the rest of what I want to do.  

V/R
Rick


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## Kenpodoc

bignick said:
			
		

> actually if you read back you'll see another post where someone that was hit in the groin went into shock...if you go into shock and aren't treated...there's a good chance you could die


Shock is a word often used non medically.  The chances of death from a groin shot are very low.  This kind of misinformation is bad for martial arts.  I believe that this is an "urban" myth.  People seem to know someone who knew someone to whom this happened.  

Jeff MD


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## bignick

My information comes from my instructor who has master's degree and teaches physiology and anatomy.  It wasn't an "urban legend".

I realize you're a doctor and i respect your knowledge on the matter at hand.


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## Kenpodoc

bignick said:
			
		

> My information comes from my instructor who has master's degree and teaches physiology and anatomy.  It wasn't an "urban legend".
> 
> I realize you're a doctor and i respect your knowledge on the matter at hand.


Interesting. Perhaps he can get me a reference to support this.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## bignick

if i remember, i'll ask during class next week...

also, as i stated he was referring to crushing the testicles...not just a strike to the groin...


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## Flatlander

It hurts me to read this thread.  I'm not looking at this anymore.


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## TChase

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> I use groin shots to dispace the the hip and control the opponents hight


Exactly!


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## Rick Wade

groin shots are a definate are to the experienced MAist.  you can use them to displace the hip shooting the person's torso down or you can use them to loosen a grip there are several things a kick to the groin can do.  Although I have never herd of a kick to the groin killing anyone I wouldn't want to take my chances against someone like Mr. Pick or any of those other heavy hitters.

V/R
Rick
 :btg:


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## hardheadjarhead

Okay...how many of you here have HAD a testicle crushed?  Not just nailed with a blow but literally crushed into a paste?

Here's what happens.  Mobility is reduced and one finds at best they can only shuffle.  The legs simply won't work.  The sensation of pain isn't localized to the groin, but spreads up through the hips, lower abdomen, and back...roughly up to the kidneys.  The effect is instantaneous.

Breathing becomes labored and hyperventilation starts.  Spasms begin in the stomach muscles as CO-2 levels drop and alkalosis sets in.  The biceps uncontrollably convulse and contract, as do the flexors of the wrist.  You'll find yourself unable to stand or sit.  This process is called "tetany".  If left untreated it can kill you.

This all happened to me in 1985 after receiving a back kick from a guy when sparring.  I wasn't wearing protection (a gentlemen's agreement to keep the kicks above the belt that he broke).  I collapsed shortly after and was hospitalized for an evening and couldn't walk far for three days.  I couldn't walk upright for two weeks.

You guys can argue about how effective it is to deliver such a shot...but unless you've experienced something like what I've described, I wouldn't be too quick to judge it as something a man can overcome with adrenaline or attitude.  We've ALL been nailed in the 'nads.  Few of us have every had one (much less both) literally crushed.  It is well beyond what most have you have experienced.


Regards,


Steve


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## Rick Wade

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Okay...how many of you here have HAD a testicle crushed?  Not just nailed with a blow but literally crushed into a paste?
> 
> Here's what happens.  Mobility is reduced and one finds at best they can only shuffle.  The legs simply won't work.  The sensation of pain isn't localized to the groin, but spreads up through the hips, lower abdomen, and back...roughly up to the kidneys.  The effect is instantaneous.
> 
> Breathing becomes labored and hyperventilation starts.  Spasms begin in the stomach muscles as CO-2 levels drop and alkalosis sets in.  The biceps uncontrollably convulse and contract, as do the flexors of the wrist.  You'll find yourself unable to stand or sit.  This process is called "tetany".  If left untreated it can kill you.
> 
> This all happened to me in 1985 after receiving a back kick from a guy when sparring.  I wasn't wearing protection (a gentlemen's agreement to keep the kicks above the belt that he broke).  I collapsed shortly after and was hospitalized for an evening and couldn't walk far for three days.  I couldn't walk upright for two weeks.
> 
> You guys can argue about how effective it is to deliver such a shot...but unless you've experienced something like what I've described, I wouldn't be too quick to judge it as something a man can overcome with adrenaline or attitude.  We've ALL been nailed in the 'nads.  Few of us have every had one (much less both) literally crushed.  It is well beyond what most have you have experienced.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


Wow sorry about that.

I think that is the worst injury I have heard of. :sadsong:


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## 8253

One way to be sure, is if you kick them real hard in the groin and it dont work, do it again.  Even if it dont do nothing then, they will sure feel it in the morining.


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## Kenpodoc

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Okay...how many of you here have HAD a testicle crushed?  Not just nailed with a blow but literally crushed into a paste?
> 
> Here's what happens.  Mobility is reduced and one finds at best they can only shuffle.  The legs simply won't work.  The sensation of pain isn't localized to the groin, but spreads up through the hips, lower abdomen, and back...roughly up to the kidneys.  The effect is instantaneous.
> 
> Breathing becomes labored and hyperventilation starts.  Spasms begin in the stomach muscles as CO-2 levels drop and alkalosis sets in.  The biceps uncontrollably convulse and contract, as do the flexors of the wrist.  You'll find yourself unable to stand or sit.  This process is called "tetany".  If left untreated it can kill you.
> 
> This all happened to me in 1985 after receiving a back kick from a guy when sparring.  I wasn't wearing protection (a gentlemen's agreement to keep the kicks above the belt that he broke).  I collapsed shortly after and was hospitalized for an evening and couldn't walk far for three days.  I couldn't walk upright for two weeks.
> 
> You guys can argue about how effective it is to deliver such a shot...but unless you've experienced something like what I've described, I wouldn't be too quick to judge it as something a man can overcome with adrenaline or attitude.  We've ALL been nailed in the 'nads.  Few of us have every had one (much less both) literally crushed.  It is well beyond what most have you have experienced.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Steve


I never said it wasn't uncomfortable.  Just that it's not lethal. Groin shots are great, but they are not always closers.  Occassionally people (due to constitution, drugs, adrenalin, whatever,) don't even seem to feel them.

I'm sorry you had the experience and wish you well.

Jeff


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## jwreck

I find the biggest problem about groin shots is untrained peoples attitudes about them. I don't know how many people have told me that their total self-defense strategy consists of "kick em in the balls and run". Too many people have seen too many movies and such so they think a little kick in the jewels will have any man on the ground instantly, unable to function. What they fail to realize is, as has been pointed out, a solid groin shot is VERY difficult to land. Damn near impossible if the person thinks its coming. Then there is the fact the ther are some people who will function quite well after a groin shot. As for UFC fighters and boxers, what exactly is the motivation to continue immediatley after a low blow? Is there more reward in sluffing it off and keep fighting? Or is there advantage gain by exaggerating the pain, taking a little rest, and letting the audience and judges (judges especially) get the impression that your opponent is a dirty fighter?


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## JDenz

For UFC there is no reason to keep fighting and alot of reasons not to.  NUmber one if you can't go on you win.  Number two it is an illegal strike and there is no reason to lose because you are stunned from an illegal move.
   In real life taking one in the Jimmie is rarley that bad.  Most of the time in a real fight your skill level is alot higher then that of the person you are fighting with so most groin shots are mostly or partially blocked.  and even if they are not you can anticiapate and move so your guys don't get the sqiushie.


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## Silat Student

I've taken a few to the Jimmy and a few to the jewels. They varied in pain levels from "fetal position" to "wow you just wasted a hit". It all depends on how it catchs you. I can think of alot of better (and less protected) shots to throw as a fight ender....kneecaps come to mind. :EG:


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## JDenz

I agree


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## lonecoyote

Okay, I can see what everyone means about it being a hard target to actually catch with a good one, sometimes. But, so what? If you miss and go high you take em in the pubic area, which also can really ruin someones day, or catch em in the inner thigh, which isn't the best target but can still cause a stinger. Further up you have the pit of the stomach, a good target anyway. Anyway, you've put them on notice they have to protect the jewels, which might lead to either a tight close legged stance, which limits mobility and makes for an easy takedown, or brings the head down,  and can let you get at those points on the jaw and the temples.


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## Silat Student

Oh there's plenty of other things to hit down there that don't invoke the Neo Effect (normally slow guys getting Martix Like reflexes). I'm unfamiliar with the effectiveness of pubic area strikes, I'll haveta try those someday.


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## Gary Crawford

The one BIG lesson I learned by actually attempting a front snap kick to the groin of this really big drunk guy,DON'T MISS!!! That got ugly.


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## Mark Weiser

This maybe off subject. But from my experience and training (Sherriff Academy) in a street fight the best way to end a fight is too take out the air of a person. We were taught to strike the Solar region of the chest with a double knife hand strike(for penetration purposes) with follow up kick to the groin to bring your opponent down to his knees then follow up with double ear claps to the ear drums.  Takes the fight out of them. LOL


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## Kenpodoc

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> This maybe off subject. But from my experience and training (Sherriff Academy) in a street fight the best way to end a fight is too take out the air of a person. We were taught to strike the Solar region of the chest with a double knife hand strike(for penetration purposes) with follow up kick to the groin to bring your opponent down to his knees then follow up with double ear claps to the ear drums.  Takes the fight out of them. LOL



Good point. The best way to stop someone is to stop the blood flowing to his brain.  But that could potentially lead to a great deal of legal doo doo. Regardless of Drugs, Mindset, Training,people whose muscles are deprived of oxygen quickly lose strength.

Jeff :asian:


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## DeLamar.J

Some people have a higher tolorance to pain than others. It might just piss one guy off more, and drop another right there. I have been popped in the groin before and it just makes me want to hurt the person more. If someone can take pain well, then a shot to the groin wont stop them, the only way is to incapacitate them by knocking them out or breaking something. Some people are very very tough, I just hope that if your in a situation and thats your last resort move, that your not up against someone who it will just piss off more. For the most part, a groin shot will drop the average joe, but not a hard core street tough opponent.


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## DeLamar.J

And one more thing about groin shots, eye shots, or other vital areas... It dont take a chainsaw to cut hot butter, dont use a sledge hammer to swat a fly, those are quotes my instructor says all the time, mostly to the women because a woman can never be stronger than the average male opponent *98% of the time* ,but they can be faster, smarter, and have better technique, so remember that while striking on vital targets.


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## tsunami

I would agree that no one should ever depend on any one particular strike to work or end a fight. I got hit in the family jewels one time, with a ball made of tape and had all of the reactions decribed in prior threads (minus shock and death) getting hit in exatly the right way can be very effective. I do train with a cup though. Firstly because I do not have kids yet and secondly so my opponent can practice proper technique and depth penetration. Question. I saw a UFC or mabey a Pride fight were one guy repeatedly hit his opponent (an asian man) in the groin which caused him to tap out. The man who did it won his bout. Has anyone seen this fight? Is this allowed in Pride fights or any other?

George


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## JDenz

Hackeny agianst Joe Son?  It was actully a throat choke that he used.


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## More_Tunes_Dude

I witnessed a street fight a couple years back.  I learned 2 big lessons from watching it.  A guy yelled at a car as it passed, so the car pulled over and the dude jumped out, reached behind his seat, and pulled out a 3' long steel bar and ran after the original dude yelling at him.
They exchanged words and threats and then the guy w/ the metal bar kicked the other fella in the groin. And I was about 200 feet away and I heard the kick land and I saw the guy lifted off the ground.  Minimal change except to make him madder.
He came after the guy w/ the metal bar, who kept swinging it to keep distance.  It became apparent in short order the he was actually unwilling to use the hunk of metal.  As soon as that was obvious, the other (who was just kicked) moved in quickly, took the bar away, and proceeded to start using against the original owner.  Then a cop showed up (amazingly quickly).  
The whole thing (after the yelling anyway) lasted perhaps 45 seconds or a minute.  About a minute later the guy who was nailed in the groin slowly fell to the ground and curled up in ball.  An ambulance dragged them both away.

my lessons?
1) groin kicks, no matter how hard, can not be 100% counted on to have the expected/desired result.
2) never pull a weapon you are unwilling to use, as it will be used against you.

cheers


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## punisher73

I agree with the posts that say about it's a good shot but not a fight ender and people react differently. Also, that it is a good place to strike to get the opponent to move in a different way to set up for another shot.

People can die from a hard shot to the groin. As one person talked about especially if the testicle is ruptured.  There are alot of "non-lethal" injuries that people die from because for whatever reason they do go into shock and die.  i remember going through the police academy and they showed us the story of a cop that was shot in the hand or someplace like that and he panicked so much he did go into shock and die and there was no medical reason he should have (ie: internal damage, loss of blood, etc.)


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## 7starmantis

First, I would like to throw up after reading this whole thread. Man, after reading it all I feel like I've been kicked in the boys about 50 times!
Ok, I think there are too many statements in this thread that are used as facts. No two kicks or hits are the same. People are using statements of truth which are false because they haven't taken into account the millions of variables that change from one kick to the next. I even read, "if it dont work, kick them again"; how hard would it be to pull off the same move twice on a skilled fighter? Groin shots are like anything else, hit and move, go on to the next technique. If you stop at any technique regardless of what it is, your opening yourself up for loosing the fight, and quickly.

Just my opinion,
 7sm


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## Kenpodoc

punisher73 said:
			
		

> I agree with the posts that say about it's a good shot but not a fight ender and people react differently. Also, that it is a good place to strike to get the opponent to move in a different way to set up for another shot.
> 
> People can die from a hard shot to the groin. As one person talked about especially if the testicle is ruptured.  There are alot of "non-lethal" injuries that people die from because for whatever reason they do go into shock and die.  i remember going through the police academy and they showed us the story of a cop that was shot in the hand or someplace like that and he panicked so much he did go into shock and die and there was no medical reason he should have (ie: internal damage, loss of blood, etc.)


I've unfortunately watched enough people die to know that healthy young people do not die easily or gracefully.  It is much harder to kill someone than Movie lore or martial arts legend would suggest.  People do not die from panic, They don't die from hand injuries or groin injuries (unless they are penetrating injuries and they exsanguinate or infected injuries that are not treated.) If you could kick hard enough to shatter the pelvis and lacerate a major vessel you might kill them.  Dying from a ruptured testical is an Urban Legend.  I suspect the police academy story is also but would be interested in seeing the medical report.  People by definition rarely die from "non-lethal" injuries and when they do there are usually other issues such as underlying cardiac disease involved.  This is not to make light of the discomfort involved in these injuries, but don't rely on them as stoppers.

Jeff


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## KenpoNoChikara

Well, I haven't had any firsthand experience with such a situation, but I think it would be effective, but woulden't totally end the fight either.


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## chinto01

Forget the lead legs what about the feeling like you are going to throw up in your shoes? Groin strikes are effective and with a quick follow up can be devestating!!!


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## still learning

thanks guys for the info...I never realize this strike may not hurt some of our attackers?  We practice multiply strikes and the groin area is one of them. Never realize it may not effect the guys getting hit there. Thanks again!

 Many years ago as a young karate student, we were sparring (no cups in those days) and I got kick good in the groin(accident) but I went down and the lights seem to have gone out! Boy did it hurt....than I give it up and never went back....somtimes I wonder if I was not hit, would I have kept on the training?   It was like 10 years later before I got back! One never forgets hits like those!  When someone says DUCK, isn't this a natural reaction for most of us...unless you have no experience?   Mahalo...a hawaiian word for Thank-you.....and ALOHA

 To the makers of the site...Great stuffs being share!!! ...to say something like, neat,cool,sharp,howzit...in Hawaii we say..SHAKA....SHAKA again


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## GaryM

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> And one more thing about groin shots, eye shots, or other vital areas... It dont take a chainsaw to cut hot butter, dont use a sledge hammer to swat a fly, those are quotes my instructor says all the time, mostly to the women because a woman can never be stronger than the average male opponent *98% of the time* ,but they can be faster, smarter, and have better technique, so remember that while striking on vital targets.


  I totally agree with this, the immediate effect of a 'light' snap to the groin seems to be more reliable than the 'bury your foot up to the ankle' type shot. I think that the damage from the 'heavy' strike tends to cause the area to go into shock. However as some above stated a strong thrusting kick to the area will control the hips and height. G.


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## distantproximity

Hi all you martial artists out there. I aint no martial artist, but over the years by choice or chance have participated in numerous street fights. I have hit people on almost all body parts.(I have myself been hit on all of them, including my testicles.) 
The groin strike happens to be the most mean move and it inflicts the greatest pain possible. I am around 5'7'' tall with an athletic built. I once had a fight with a bouncer (6'3'') in a discotheque. He, with his big palms squeezed my neck muscles. As I went down I had no other option but to strike him with my forearms in his nuts. True example of hitting  below the belt!! And the big man had both his hands clinched to his scrotum with tears in his eyes. I managed to escape.
From that day onwards I have realised the effectiveness of the move. It can bring even the toughest of opponents down on their feet.
Although few martial artists have commented that it is not as effective as it seems, but for me it has worked wonders. 
But it should be kept in mind that this move is the last resort. Because not only it is the ultimate form of agony, if struck rather hard, your opponent could also become impotent. 
Whether or not it could cause death is a matter of debate. I have not yet known of an incident where a man died because of an injury in the testicles. 
But for all amateaur guys reading this(I am myself not formally trained in Martial arts!!), DO NOT USE this move till it becomes absolutely necessary. As I said before only as a last resort. Other painful moves could be the forearm rub (with your nails on the opponets forearms-dont underestimate this one, its a real killer) or a punch in the last pair of ribs(preferably with an upward 'hook' motion) or even a punch on the area just above the hip (the place where kidneys are located).
And guys do let me know of any ways of defending yourself from the groin strike.


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## Bodhisattva

lonecoyote said:


> I have read various posts on this board and others by people who say that they have firsthand experience of hard groin strikes not working. Even people who say they have gone on and won street fights, after taking a hard groin strike. Cobra even started a thread about taking a groin shot on purpose. I have taken a few really hard accidental kicks in the groin in the dojo and given a couple too, and while I understand it might not end a fight, as part of a combination it would definitely have an effect. Thing about it to me is not just the initial pain, but the really heavy feeling in the legs, like someone has poured molten lead in them, and also the loss of wind, making you feel out of gas. What causes this? anyway, strikes to the groin are definitely part of my emergency arsenal. Does anyone out there not believe groin strikes are effective? Why or why not? How about effective in combinations of other techniques?



The groin strike is a GREAT shot to score on someone.

However, it is not an "instant fight ender" - unless the person attacking you was only half-hearted.

A determined opponent will NOT typically drop to the ground clutching his groin if you hit him there.

It DOES however HURT a heck of a lot.

I think of a groin shot in the same way I think of a really good shot to the nose.

Or a liver shot.


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## sgtmac_46

I agree with the previous statements that a heavy hit to the groin tends to put the region in to shock, and lesson the impact.

I like to use the 'nut-slap' groin shot.......a quick back-hand flip in to the groin THE VAST MAJORITY of the time causes a predictable response.....and that is that the person drops his hands toward his groin, his chin juts out and he bends forward.........this is immediately followed by a forearm or hook to the now jutted forward jaw......if you time it just right, he leans forward IN TO the strike just as it's hitting.  Sometimes to bend forward is so dramatic and quick that you have to avoid accidentally getting headbutted by the guy.

Less seems to be more with the groin shot......you can get a better response grazing the groin with a quick flip of your hand or fingers, than sometimes kicking someone in it.


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## BLACK LION

a ruptured testicle will cause a spinal reflex that will either drop him or put him in a squatting position and either way both of his hands will go to the area of trauma not out of thought but reflex....  he may even look at them too ......    if you are tearing the scrotum then they will land pretty much wherever you want them to


it is important to strike using the entire body.... not to hit....or kick or punch.... a punch or kick could fail on a bigger stronger guy....   

the focus should be to use ones body weight to strike to testicles in a manner that would push them out his mouth(not really) but thats the thought process... or to tear the scrotum by grabbing twisting and ripping by lifting them up  

a slap or palm heel works well.... also a good knee drop or stomp.... but when in doubt just grap a handful and lift em up


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## actuarialgal

Every groin shot I have ever seen or dealt at a minimum caused the person to exhale, partially bend over, and reach for the crotch. At that point you need to continue the attack, as that may only buy you a little time. I have seen people shake it off quickly, but it always caused that delay. 

Eyes and throat are generally open immediately after the shot to the groin.


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## Imminent

Black Lion and actuarial girl are dead on.  The reaction of the body to a serious groin shot (ie ruptured testicle is the goal) is controlled in the spinal loop reflex.  There are five primary kinds of reflexive arcs in the body you can induce the groin is either withdrawal or reflex reaction and it is not somethign you can learn to endure.  I would suggest that anyone who has trained to be kicked in the groin has not been struck with the intent to rupture their testies.  Had that goal focused on with intent on the training session they would have been in the ER for the resulting injury and training would be over.  If you think you can really train the testies for pain control rather than its proper reaction source (ie spinal loop) the try this experiment to see the difference; sit down with testicles in fornt of your pelvis and have your partenr stomp on them with his heel as hard as you can.  If you can condition yourself to the pain I applaud you, if you can endur without suffering the spinal reflexive response, you are not wired as humans.


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## Brian S

lonecoyote said:


> I have read various posts on this board and others by people who say that they have firsthand experience of hard groin strikes not working. Even people who say they have gone on and won street fights, after taking a hard groin strike. Cobra even started a thread about taking a groin shot on purpose. I have taken a few really hard accidental kicks in the groin in the dojo and given a couple too, and while I understand it might not end a fight, as part of a combination it would definitely have an effect. Thing about it to me is not just the initial pain, but the really heavy feeling in the legs, like someone has poured molten lead in them, and also the loss of wind, making you feel out of gas. What causes this? anyway, strikes to the groin are definitely part of my emergency arsenal. Does anyone out there not believe groin strikes are effective? Why or why not? How about effective in combinations of other techniques?


 

 I wouldn't rely on the groin strike,but it could be a deterrant or open another window of opportunity. I certainly wouldn't pass it up if the opportunity presented itself.


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## BLACK LION

i rely on rupturing testicles whole heartedly....  same with any other weakness the anatomy has


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## sgtmac_46

BLACK LION said:


> a ruptured testicle will cause a spinal reflex that will either drop him or put him in a squatting position and either way both of his hands will go to the area of trauma not out of thought but reflex.... he may even look at them too ...... if you are tearing the scrotum then they will land pretty much wherever you want them to
> 
> 
> it is important to strike using the entire body.... not to hit....or kick or punch.... a punch or kick could fail on a bigger stronger guy....
> 
> the focus should be to use ones body weight to strike to testicles in a manner that would push them out his mouth(not really) but thats the thought process... or to tear the scrotum by grabbing twisting and ripping by lifting them up
> 
> a slap or palm heel works well.... also a good knee drop or stomp.... but when in doubt just grap a handful and lift em up


 Good points.....


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## sgtmac_46

Imminent said:


> Black Lion and actuarial girl are dead on. The reaction of the body to a serious groin shot (ie ruptured testicle is the goal) is controlled in the spinal loop reflex. There are five primary kinds of reflexive arcs in the body you can induce the groin is either withdrawal or reflex reaction and it is not somethign you can learn to endure. I would suggest that anyone who has trained to be kicked in the groin has not been struck with the intent to rupture their testies. Had that goal focused on with intent on the training session they would have been in the ER for the resulting injury and training would be over. If you think you can really train the testies for pain control rather than its proper reaction source (ie spinal loop) the try this experiment to see the difference; sit down with testicles in fornt of your pelvis and have your partenr stomp on them with his heel as hard as you can. If you can condition yourself to the pain I applaud you, if you can endur without suffering the spinal reflexive response, you are not wired as humans.


 You are generally correct....but keep in mind that there are violent men out there who, either because of abuse of dissociative anasthetics (PCP) or simply a mind/body disconnect (mentally ill), literally do not feel pain.....in that instance a groin shot will have little if any effect......fortunately those individuals are relatively rare as threats, but they are out there......always have a Plan B...and C....and D.....


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## Ahriman

My best friend trains in Krav Maga _(and WMA)_ and witnessed a very interesting thing. At their school, wearing cups is "very strongly recommended" at all times in class. Their instructor was showing a technique on one of the guys involving kneeling into his groin. He showed once - class started staring. "Ok, so you don't get it, I'll show it another time" and did so. Even more staring. "Ok, so last time" and demonstrated the technique the third time. At last he asked why did the entire class except the guy and the instructor turn white. The guy answered "I'm not wearing any groin protection". Then the instructor turned white as well.
It is exceptional but does occur thus we always use an instant follow up regardless how the target responded. My training partners don't really like when I kneel them in the groin only to gain some extra leverage for a throw or push.
...
sgtmac_46: thanks for mentioning these less common possibilities - but even as they are quite rare, not preparing for those cases is reliance on pure luck, and luck sometimes runs out thus it's very important to keep them in mind.


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## shihansmurf

Brian S said:


> I wouldn't rely on the groin strike,but it could be a deterrant or open another window of opportunity. I certainly wouldn't pass it up if the opportunity presented itself.



Exactly.A shot to the boys is a good way to get the opponent to open themselves up for moves that knock them out or allow you to immobilize them.

There is a great weakness in relying on any one move to end every altercation. Faith in the "Magic Bullet Technique" is one of the easiest ways to get hurt in a real altercation.One of my early instructors had a saying, "Since 100% of the people don't react the same way to the same technique 100% of the time, then no technique is 100% effective".

I'm not a big fan of soft tissue attacks or "vital point" hits as a primary means to protect myself in an altercation. Solid, basic, punching and kicking skills that target easy to hit areas are my bread and butter. Jab/cross to the face, round kick to the outer thigh, front thrust kick to lead leg or stomach, the yellow belt stuff.All the "advanced" movements that involve eye gouges, groin shots, ear claps, nerve center activations, and the like, while high payoff, are difficult to hit with in a fight. I'll take gross motor skills over fine ones when I have adrenaline coursing through my system any day.If you cant punch me in the face with your fist then you ain't gonna poke me in the eye with your finger. On a similar note, if you can't kick me in the gut then you aren't too likely to land a kick to my jewels.

Just my view on things
Mark


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## Deaf Smith

How about just a simple test. Have a friend kick you full power in the groin and see if you still can fight.

Simple, no?

Any takers?

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> How about just a simple test. Have a friend kick you full power in the groin and see if you still can fight.
> 
> Simple, no?
> 
> Any takers?
> 
> Deaf


 It's a good point......but you also need to keep in mind that what will drop a man in such a circumstances as 'Kick me in the Jimmy' time will not necessarily drop him when he's got a head full of steam and body full of adrenaline.

Take the same circumstance above, but in this instance YOU are the one getting hit by a man intent on harming your family......you are in fear not only for your life but the life of your family.  Are you going to be stopped by a kick to the groin?

The human body is an extraordinary machine......and is endowed with biological counters developed through millions of years of evolution and combat.  We have chemicals within our bodies that counteract the temporary effects of pain and fatigue.


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## Deaf Smith

Ok, all you have to do is like Massad Ayoob did with shooting. An injection of endorphins. Once you are jacked up, take a hit down there.

Oh, BTW, I've been kicked twice there sparring. I did spinning heal kicks and the other guy did back kicks right in the groin. Knocked me down both times. Took the steam out of me for about a minute or two.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> Ok, all you have to do is like Massad Ayoob did with shooting. An injection of endorphins. Once you are jacked up, take a hit down there.
> 
> Oh, BTW, I've been kicked twice there sparring. I did spinning heal kicks and the other guy did back kicks right in the groin. Knocked me down both times. Took the steam out of me for about a minute or two.
> 
> Deaf


 Sparring and fighting for your life are a WORLD APART!

Even the body reacts differently.  Men sometimes get shot in the middle of a fight for their life and don't even know it until later. 

Relying on pain is a shaky proposition...no matter HOW painful a groin shot is, at the end of the day it's pain and not dysfunction.  In other words if you don't feel it, it has no effect.  Most men will feel it, many will be slowed down or stopped by it.....some men won't.



Or, imagine this......you're being chased by a lion that is trying to EAT YOU.......and in the process you run in to a hard object the strikes you in the groin much like the kick you experienced in sparring......are you really just going to lay there hanging on to your manhood as the lion catches you and eats you?  NO!  You're probably not even going to feel it until you're safe and have a chance to calm down.......your mind will tell your body 'NOT IMPORTANT!  We'll worry about it LATER!  KEEP MOVING! LION! LION! LION!'


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## Ahriman

sgtmac_46: good point with the lion example, but the same can be done consciously as well - like when I injure myself while working. The last major thing was when I was stupid enough to grab the horn of my anvil - I forgot it was HOT and burned most of the skin from my right palm before I felt the pain_ (a few weeks before that I peeled the nail from my thumb and ignored that as well)_. But as I had to finish that piece, I simply ignored the pain and pulled the anvil where I wanted and kept hammering with said right hand.
Pain is a good tool against one with low tolerance, but do we really want to depend on that? If it hurts the other, fine, but what if it doesn't or if the other just ignores the pain?


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## Brian S

One word of advice for all you groin strikers. I've been hit in the groin many times in my life. By my sister,during sparring,fights on the street (in a restaurant,lol) etc..
At 31yrs old I developed Testicular Cancer. I can promise you it wans't a fun ordeal. (I've been rid of it for 2 1/2yrs now)
Although the exact cause isn't pinpointed one of the many speculations is that it may be caused by trauma or scar tissue that becomes cancerous over time. This may or may not be the case,but I have my suspicions. (purely speculative)
I see all these 'nutcases' (pun intended) on the internet and tv purposefully racking eachother and themselves and I wonder......

BTW, I'm 50% less likely to be racked anymore.


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## tshadowchaser

At this moment I am not going back through this whole thread to see if I have said this before but Groin Strikes can and have caused people to go into shock and die. I know because I had a friend died that way.
Yes they can be painful  and yes some people just keep  fighting but there are medical conditions that can happen immediately and some that take a time to happen because of groin strikes. My advice when practicing them is be extremely careful and use control.


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## BLACK LION

* *there is a big difference between a shot to the nuts... and a torn scrotum or ruptured testicle*... if you do not get a basic spinal reflex(bending of the knees, leaning forward and poking out the chin) then you did not strike the target correctly....  that reflex is basic....the most extreme being the guys feet lifting of the ground and him slamming his knees and face into the ground....

* one should never rely on any single effective strike....  *one should rely on every strike being effective*(causing trauma to the central nervous system)  

* continue to cause traumatic effects in the opposition by targeting specific areas until they are no longer a threat....  shut down thier brain or thier cns


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## BLACK LION

shihansmurf said:


> I'm not a big fan of soft tissue attacks or "vital point" hits as a primary means to protect myself in an altercation. Solid, basic, punching and kicking skills that target easy to hit areas are my bread and butter. Jab/cross to the face, round kick to the outer thigh, front thrust kick to lead leg or stomach, the yellow belt stuff.All the "advanced" movements that involve eye gouges, groin shots, ear claps, nerve center activations, and the like, while high payoff, are difficult to hit with in a fight. I'll take gross motor skills over fine ones when I have adrenaline coursing through my system any day.If you cant punch me in the face with your fist then you ain't gonna poke me in the eye with your finger. On a similar note, if you can't kick me in the gut then you aren't too likely to land a kick to my jewels.
> 
> Just my view on things
> Mark


 
*I respect your training....but this far from the reality of a *violent confrontation* and more along the lines of "*combat sports*"....  all of the movements that you stated are *elastic *and although may be accompanied with great speed and strenghth....they lack the rotation/penetration required to inflict true trauma and render the opposintion non-functional....      
soft tissue attacks are exactly what being performed when you strike the human body with your body weapons...the payoff is targeting specific areas that cause traumatic response in the central nervous system in an attempt to shut off thier most powerful weapon which is thier brain...... 
  if you train to target and you know the reaction or the effect that striking that target has then you control the outcome....  the man who causes the first injury is the one likely to go home....  you can punch and kick each other all night, it happens on t.v. all the time....


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## Deaf Smith

sgtmac_46,

Well if that's the case then most kicks and punchs will do nothing either. Plenty of people have taken mutiple gunshots and stood (or ran.) So we all know to keep shooting (or kicking and punching) till they drop, right?

Still,the groin is an exposed organ that has a huge number of nerve endings. If one has the shot, I'd take it.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> sgtmac_46,
> 
> Well if that's the case then most kicks and punchs will do nothing either. Plenty of people have taken mutiple gunshots and stood (or ran.) So we all know to keep shooting (or kicking and punching) till they drop, right?
> 
> Still,the groin is an exposed organ that has a huge number of nerve endings. If one has the shot, I'd take it.
> 
> Deaf


 One stop kicks and punches don't work all the time and where they do work it's more the result of a lack of commitment on the part of the person hit....the difference between a knock out and a groin shot, however, is that a knock out causes loss of function.....and since the testicles do not have to operate in order for the subject to keep fighting, you are relying on the pain they cause........and pain tolerances vary, including those who are completely dissociated from pain via mental illness or drug use.

So the point is that a groin shot MAY or MAY NOT work.


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## BLACK LION

a rupture testicle causes a spinal reflex that cannot be controlled by the effected body....  leaving them open for further trauma  

if you  strike a groin and there is no reaction then you did not strike correctly or effectively.... if you put your body behind your medium you will see the effect of a groin strike....


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## Deaf Smith

sgtmac_46 said:


> One stop kicks and punches don't work all the time


 
Nothing works all the time sgtmac. Even a knockout shot.



sgtmac_46 said:


> So the point is that a groin shot MAY or MAY NOT work.


 
And that is why, no matter what you do, you keep going till they are down. A solar plexus shot may not down someone, but does that mean you don't try for it if it's open? Or a chin shot or knee strike? Or even a groin strike.

You go for what's available with what weapons you have and keep going till it's over.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46

BLACK LION said:


> a rupture testicle causes a spinal reflex that cannot be controlled by the effected body....  leaving them open for further trauma
> 
> if you  strike a groin and there is no reaction then you did not strike correctly or effectively.... if you put your body behind your medium you will see the effect of a groin strike....


 You've obviously never met an enraged 6'2 250lb man high on PCP......when you do all your 'theories' will fly right out the window.

A department near Kansas City had a guy high on PCP who cut his own testicles off with a knife and then walked around an apartment building with them in his hand......guess he didn't get your memo. 

I'm not trying to belabor the point, i'm only saying that while the book says a good testicle shot 'should' work......sometimes the bad guy didn't read the book.....good thing to keep in mind.


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## sgtmac_46

Deaf Smith said:


> Nothing works all the time sgtmac. Even a knockout shot.


 Which was my point.





Deaf Smith said:


> And that is why, no matter what you do, you keep going till they are down. A solar plexus shot may not down someone, but does that mean you don't try for it if it's open? Or a chin shot or knee strike? Or even a groin strike.
> 
> You go for what's available with what weapons you have and keep going till it's over.
> 
> Deaf


 I agree 100%.


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## Kwanjang

lonecoyote said:


> And be careful not to run into the guy from the Steve Martin movie "The Jerk" I believe his name was Iron B--ls McGinty.


 
Now thats funny :lfao:


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## Shotgun Buddha

Groin shots would not be a priority in striking for me. That doesn't mean I won't use them, if an opportunity is there it will be taken, but its not a target I'd seek out. Just one I'd make use of while going onto more reliable attacks.

My problem with them is this: First off, people's reactions to them vary too much, and adrenaline dump runs too high a risk of negating it. Some people will drop right away, others might not react at all and others would have a delayed reaction.
More often than not the response Ive seen is the third one, where the effects would hit the person a minute or two after the strike.
So, that rules it out as a fight-ender of a strike, a minute is FAR too long a period of time in which someone is still able to do some damage.
It does however mean it can be useful as part of a cumulative attack, so long as you can keep up the offensive momentum.
I would suggest only hitting them there if an easy opportunity presents itself though, because there's strikes that are more likely to have a fast or direct effect on the target.

Second is the issue of training. Any technique I cannot practice full force regularly and test the results of consistently, I WILL NOT rely on. I might make use of them, but they are lower down in my toolbox as it were. Strikes of opportunity not of priority.


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## BLACK LION

I love the 50% head in the sand mentality.... and thanks for the absolute worst case scenario that most of us will not encounter...even still his balls are gone but he wasnt attacking anyone just walking around with them....    
no one is telling you to rely on just a groin strike....but at the same time there are those of you who would discredit it all together....    being hit in the nuts does not feel good.... some people get hurt/injured or die and very few dont react at all....   

if I tell you that gouging out an eye is effective people will come around with stories about people cutting out thier eyes and walking around with them....   

the point his having a 100% mentality all the time .... the point is injuring them until satisified.... the point is not to rely on one strike one kill.... the point is to keep striking till they are not functioning....  I understand that not everything will work all the time but something will.... and as long as one is repeatedly targeting areas that are scientifically and medically proven to provide traumatic results then that is all that one can expect....   always causing effects in the other person.... not the one effected by cause....   

if i got dinged in the nuts it would be uncomfortable at least.... i would definately keep fighting...but if my eyes were gouged after that along with a ruptured eardrum a crushed adams apple etc... i doubt i can keep going and if i was high... i think my body would eventually shut me down from shock or suffocation


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## kwaichang

1. I totally agree that groin shots "don't always work".  For that matter neither does shooting a guy two or three times if no vital organs are hit.
2.  From my personal experience; the one time I used a front snap kick to the groin, I put the guy down and out for 20 minutes.  ....thought I killed him...and this in class.:angel:


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## sgtmac_46

BLACK LION said:


> I love the 50% head in the sand mentality.... and thanks for the absolute worst case scenario that most of us will not encounter...even still his balls are gone but he wasnt attacking anyone just walking around with them....
> no one is telling you to rely on just a groin strike....but at the same time there are those of you who would discredit it all together....    being hit in the nuts does not feel good.... some people get hurt/injured or die and very few dont react at all....
> 
> if I tell you that gouging out an eye is effective people will come around with stories about people cutting out thier eyes and walking around with them....
> 
> the point his having a 100% mentality all the time .... the point is injuring them until satisified.... the point is not to rely on one strike one kill.... the point is to keep striking till they are not functioning....  I understand that not everything will work all the time but something will.... and as long as one is repeatedly targeting areas that are scientifically and medically proven to provide traumatic results then that is all that one can expect....   always causing effects in the other person.... not the one effected by cause....
> 
> if i got dinged in the nuts it would be uncomfortable at least.... i would definately keep fighting...but if my eyes were gouged after that along with a ruptured eardrum a crushed adams apple etc... i doubt i can keep going and if i was high... i think my body would eventually shut me down from shock or suffocation


 We're not talking about an eye, partner......you fail to understand the difference between PAIN and DYSFUNCTION!  You NEED eyes to fight, you don't need a testicle.  Relying on PAIN to achieve your objective is an iffy proposition.....and if you think that running in to some drugged out maniac you have to defend yourself against is a 'remote' possibility then it's not me with his head in the sand......because the kind of guy who IS going to blindside you in some alley somewhere is going to be jacked up on hyper-stimulants, bet it crack cocaine or methamphetamines, or a dissociative anasthetic, or even just alcohol.

A technique that causes DYSFUNCTION is more reliable than one designed to end the fight because of 'Pain'.  If you DECAPITATE someone, they will stop fighting.  If you stab them in the leg, not necessarily.  If you gouge both eyes out, you can simply walk out of reach regardless of whether he feels it or not.  Are you tracking yet?

I've dealt with a lot of folks in my line of work who were high on something or just enraged enough not to feel much.  I watched a felon high on methamphetamines take a baton strike to the head that simply collapsed the baton and had ZERO effect......A guy last week fought with the K9 for 5 minutes while it was biting him and he was fighting with other other officers.  PAIN works sometimes, DYSFUNCTION works far more often.

When I absolutely positively have to put someone down with my bare hands I don't expect a testicle hit to work.....I choke them unconcious, physically cut off the oxygen to the brain, causing DYSFUNCTION!  Works almost all the time!


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## sgtmac_46

kwaichang said:


> 1. I totally agree that groin shots "don't always work".  For that matter neither does shooting a guy two or three times if no vital organs are hit.
> 2.  From my personal experience; the one time I used a front snap kick to the groin, I put the guy down and out for 20 minutes.  ....thought I killed him...and this in class.:angel:



I agree with everything above.......but I do caution folks about their 'class' experiences........we see the same thing with police training......Pepper Spray classes provide an EXCELLENT example of this phenomenon.......the effects are going to be FAR greater in class than on the street, because someone on the street is motivated to fight, while someone in class is just motivated enough to do what he needs to do to get to the water hose and wash off the OC spray.

The same with a groin shot in class.....he has no great motivation keeping him moving......the pain becomes his focus.  Take the same guy and put him in a different situation and you'll find CONSIDERABLY more pain tolerance.


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## kwaichang

sgtmac_46 said:


> When I absolutely positively have to put someone down with my bare hands I don't expect a testicle hit to work.....I choke them unconcious, physically cut off the oxygen to the brain, causing DYSFUNCTION! Works almost all the time!


Which could explain why review boards are kept so busy.
Choking isn't an exact science and it will be viewed unfavorably should something go amiss, like a video of the scene.:shock:


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## kwaichang

sgtmac_46 said:


> I agree with everything above.......but I do caution folks about their 'class' experiences..


I should have included the fact that it was my second day in class-I can remember that far back   ) and was in a defensive circle with an abnoxous yellow belt doing the attacking; afterwards many in class including the owner of the studio commended me on the technique and told me the yellow belt had been overly bulling new students for some time, this time he made a mistake and all would benefit. 


sgtmac_46 said:


> ......we see the same thing with police training......Pepper Spray classes provide an EXCELLENT example of this


yep, 'cause everyone is fairly rested, not on drugs or such and is semi-aware of what to expect...then SURPRISE


sgtmac_46 said:


> The same with a groin shot in class.....he has no great motivation keeping him moving......the pain becomes his focus. Take the same guy and put him in a different situation and you'll find CONSIDERABLY more pain tolerance.


Of course in class you should be wearing a cup and expect certain painful techniques to not get pulled once in a while.  Your body chemistry changes dramatically when it's "fight for your life" and the bodies defenses kick in.


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## shihansmurf

BLACK LION said:


> *I respect your training....but this far from the reality of a *violent confrontation* and more along the lines of "*combat sports*"....  all of the movements that you stated are *elastic *and although may be accompanied with great speed and strenghth....they lack the rotation/penetration required to inflict true trauma and render the opposintion non-functional....
> soft tissue attacks are exactly what being performed when you strike the human body with your body weapons...the payoff is targeting specific areas that cause traumatic response in the central nervous system in an attempt to shut off thier most powerful weapon which is thier brain......
> if you train to target and you know the reaction or the effect that striking that target has then you control the outcome....  the man who causes the first injury is the one likely to go home....  you can punch and kick each other all night, it happens on t.v. all the time....



Firs off, I have experienced the reality of unarmed violent confrontation.I am a soldier, a combat veteran in point of fact. During a number of encounters in Iraq, specifically at traffic control points where the locals would fight us when we pulled them out of cars to search them(sometimes with weapons), and in couple of other incidents.I have also, as you observed, participated in combat sports. The skill set that enabled me to be successful in the ring as a boxer also enabled me to defend myself in the afore-mentioned real world violent encounters.

People do get punched and kicked all night on TV without being knocked out. These are well conditioned fighters who are used to taking punishment. The average guy on the street isn't that well conditioned and can't absorb heavy impact like that. Boxing gloves don't just protect the strikers hand they also disperse the force of the impact over a larger area resulting in less penetrating force behind each impact, thus allowing the fight to continue. UFC and other MMA's have a higher rate of knock out than boxing primarily because of the lighter gloves that have a smaller surface area and the fact that the feet/shins are bare.That being said there have been a number of deaths do to traumatic brain injury in boxing and other "combat sports", an olympic style TKD player a couple of years ago springs to mind.More importantly the fact that knockouts occur with great frequency directly counters your position that the technique list that I mentioned, the jab/cross combo the the face in particular, "lack the rotation/penetration required to inflict true trauma and render the opposintion non-functional". I am of the opinion that an unconscious opponent is effectively non-functional as is a fighter who is on the ground trying to regain his air from having it kicked out of them with that front kick to the gut I mentioned.

I don't discount the effectiveness of soft-tissue striking(by this I mean the act of targeting the eyes, throat, groin, and the other assorted "fight ending targets" that non-fighters are so fond of relying on). Where I have a problem is with the idea that these are the most effective way to end a fight. I also don't believe that they are reliable targets in a fight do to the size of the target and the fine motor skills needed to effectively target the eyes/throat/groin/magic nerve cluster that makes the adversary too depressed to keep fighting/ or whatever.Gross motor movements like basic punching and kicking skills to reliably hit targets like the head, stomach, and legs are a much more effective and easier to connect with when you are also fighting fear, and adrenaline.

One last thing. Not everyone reacts the same way to getting hit. I may flinch and pull back from a jab as an autonomic response( I don't but for the example assume I do) whereas you me turn your head with the blow also as a autonomic reaction. Since the reaction is not the same it is not possible to train our responses to the degree where we "know" what the effect" of our landed hits will be. 

Just my thoughts
Mark


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## kwaichang

Smurf or not, I thank you for your service.


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## shihansmurf

kwaichang said:


> Smurf or not, I thank you for your service.



Well, we smurfs are the sworn enemies of Al Qeada, Terrorists, and pesky wizards that keep pet cats named Azrael.


Seriously, I appreciate the kind words.

Mark

P.S. We can't abide the Snorks, either.


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## sgtmac_46

kwaichang said:


> Which could explain why review boards are kept so busy.
> Choking isn't an exact science and it will be viewed unfavorably should something go amiss, like a video of the scene.:shock:


 Use of force isn't an exact science....anyone who thinks it is is either delusional or selling a bill of goods.....being viewed 'unfavorably' by a review board is NOT worse than being viewed unfavorably by your family because you are DEAD or PERMANENTLY INJURED!

Moreover, i've had the training and experience to defend my actions ON and OFF camera.

Furthermore, the LVNR as taught by Jim Lindell and the NLETC and used by the Kansas City Police Department and numerous other agencies for 34 years has this result



> _*No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!* _




_I draw your attention to the Rodney King situation....10 years prior to Rodney King the LA City Council conducted a study based on the 'fear' that someone 'might die' from a neck restraint, and calculated that the possibility, though remote, would result in a lawsuit in the tens of millions of dollars._
_
They concluded it would be FAR MORE cost effective to pay out the far smaller damages resulting from baton strikes than the far more remote possibility of a death from a neck restraint....the RESULT!  Well you know the result don't you? _


The NECK restraint has be shunned because it 'sounds like it COULD be fatal' not because it is.  It's a case of perception overcoming reality.  If you have a choice of me either breaking your arm or causing you to temporarily lose conciousness, only to recover with not long term effects, which do you prefer?

I've been choked unconcious dozens of times.....thousands upon thousands of Jui-Jitsu practioners and Judoka are choked unconcious every year.....more people die from bad food on the buffet.


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## kwaichang

sgtmac_46 said:


> Use of force isn't an exact science....


 agreed and that is why I added a word of caution


sgtmac_46 said:


> .....being viewed 'unfavorably' by a review board is NOT worse than being viewed unfavorably by your family because you are DEAD or PERMANENTLY INJURED!


..better to be judged by twelve then be carried by six...I totally agree with that sentiment.


sgtmac_46 said:


> Moreover, i've had the training and experience to defend my actions ON and OFF camera.


You're fortunate.  Life situations often are changed by adrenaline or unexpected reactions to being subdued.


sgtmac_46 said:


> Furthermore, the LVNR as taught by Jim Lindell and the NLETC and used by the Kansas City Police Department and numerous other agencies for 34 years has this result


I'm familiar with the gentleman and his credentials are excellent.  My point wasn't with him nor with training but rather how the practice of choking is viewed by those who judge/jury law enforcements actions. 



sgtmac_46 said:


> The NECK restraint has be shunned because it 'sounds like it COULD be fatal' not because it is. It's a case of perception overcoming reality. If you have a choice of me either breaking your arm or causing you to temporarily lose conciousness, only to recover with not long term effects, which do you prefer?


Actually I thought I was responding to the use of the technique on a subject not on ones self.  In defense of ones self, I'd rather break someones arm or limit their mobility before resulting to rendering them unconscious by using a strangle hold (sic).


sgtmac_46 said:


> I've been choked unconcious dozens of times.....thousands upon thousands of Jui-Jitsu practioners and Judoka are choked unconcious every year.....more people die from bad food on the buffet.


About the buffet thingy, I'm not sure. However, as a jiu-jitsu (yes I know about the spelling) practioner and licensed Sensei for decades, I am most assuredly familiar with chokes, etc.  It's just that you and I see their use differently.  I'm a tad more concerned with the  litigiousness of society and choose other techniques before "the last resort".
....fall easy


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## sgtmac_46

kwaichang said:


> agreed and that is why I added a word of caution
> 
> ..better to be judged by twelve then be carried by six...I totally agree with that sentiment.
> 
> You're fortunate.  Life situations often are changed by adrenaline or unexpected reactions to being subdued.
> 
> I'm familiar with the gentleman and his credentials are excellent.  My point wasn't with him nor with training but rather how the practice of choking is viewed by those who judge/jury law enforcements actions.
> 
> 
> Actually I thought I was responding to the use of the technique on a subject not on ones self.  In defense of ones self, I'd rather break someones arm or limit their mobility before resulting to rendering them unconscious by using a strangle hold (sic).
> 
> About the buffet thingy, I'm not sure. However, as a jiu-jitsu (yes I know about the spelling) practioner and licensed Sensei for decades, I am most assuredly familiar with chokes, etc.  It's just that you and I see their use differently.  I'm a tad more concerned with the  litigiousness of society and choose other techniques before "the last resort".
> ....fall easy



I can assure you, using the technique we're discussing right now, that you are MANY TIMES more likely to get successfully sued for striking someone in the groin with ANY degree of force than using an approved neck restraint.  That's reality.

I've never seen one injured or killed by a neck restraint, and while it's certainly possible, people die from peanut allergies as well.  You are FAR more likely to rupture a testicle with a groin strike of any power, and that will cost you individual or an agency TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars IF you settle out of court.

Courts don't view the techniques positively or negatively unless there is injury....neck restraints done properly DO NOT cause ANY injury, not even the appearance of injury.  You break an arm or even a JOINT on the other hand and you'll pay TENS OF THOUSANDS in settlements....for a technique with a FAR LOWER degree of success in bringing compliance.

I've been a law enforcement trainer for several years, and the fear of a given technique or tool by the public is generally not based on reason but instead PURE emotional reaction.  But we CANNOT build our logically constructed defensive tactics program on irrational beliefs.  

If we use logic and reason as a primer for a program we save officers lives.....even if we have to defend our rationale against emotionalism and idiocy......we do that.

IF, however, we try to build our program around what the lowest common denominator in the public might 'feel' upon seeing a technique we build a program that's ineffective and will ultimately get an officer hurt or killed......AND, ironically, will result in MORE LAWSUITS that we lose because the techniques will FAIL resulting in the officers needing to use HIGHER LEVELS OF FORCE to defend themselves and accomplish the job.

How that works is like this.....I take Officer Smith and teach him some politically correct but highly ineffective control techniques tested in front of the Civilian Review board to get their (uneducated) seal of APPROVAL!  Officer Smith confronts Joe Bob Dirtbag on a traffic stop, and Joe Bob decides he's going to fight........Officer Smith uses his departmentally taught Civilian Review Board approved tactics on Joe Bob, and not only fails but gets in a seriously compromised position with Joe Bob where he ends up fearing for his life and has to SHOOT JOE BOB!  Now the department is being sued.....and the FAULT rests firmly in the hands of the faulty defensive tactics program.

Same scenario but instead we have given Officer Smith the TOOLS and TRAINING to deal with Joe Bob.....Officer Smith has options, and when Joe Bob gets out of hand, Officer Smith applies the departmentally approved LVNR technique, gains control of Joe Bob, handcuffs him and takes him to jail...ZERO INJURIES!  Everyone lives, nobody dies and Officer Smith is injury free for the next call.


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