# downward figure 8: hitting myself?!



## CiNcO dOsE (Jan 26, 2005)

hello everyone, i would like some help/suggestions/advices please.

when i practice downward figure 8, i sometimes hit myself, on my thighs, knees, hips, and my opposite elbow (when my hand is in guard, up position).  it sounds funny    and i know i am doing something wrong, and this is where you guys come in  :ultracool .

i dont hit myself all the time, just sometimes to rare.  i noticed that it happens when i try to speed up or try to add more power or both to my figure 8.

what am i doing wrong?!  i know it is hard to tell if you guys cant see it, but from your experiences, what do you guys think?!  perhaps some suggestions or advices on how to properly move my arms when doing figure 8 movements?!

and also when i am practicing double sticks, my sticks have the tendency to hit each other (again only sometimes, same as above, while increasing speed etc.).  im just doing, i think its something like "heaven and earth" but the targets are just the torso part of the opponnent, in other words, the sticks or the targets dont go up and down (i hit the target 3 times before the cycle starts on the other side, sorry dunno what its called.).

so everyone, your responses are appreciated.


thanks in advance,
5:12


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jan 26, 2005)

Hello C.D.,

It sounds like an issue with becoming more familiar with your body placement and mechanics while you are practicing your flow. Start with a slightly wider angle of attack in each of your strikes, this will keep the stick or blade away from your body. Then as you progress pull in and make your attack angles narrower and more efficient. Sinawali is very similar, but since your hands are crossing, it is very common to strike your own stick, this can be due to not chambering fully and leaving a piece of your weapon out and in the path of the other strike. Go back and fully chamber, start slow and see if you continue to hit your sticks.

I hope this helps.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## kroh (Jan 26, 2005)

If you are just startting to do these drills... try to remember that slow and steady win this race.  

don't try to go too fast too soon.  The only thing that will happen is that you will get all tangly and weird.

Like Airyu said...it might be all about the way that you are placing your body in relation to the sticks.  Also make sure that when you are doing these drills (especially drills like heaven and earth) that you are breaking the plane of your wrist.  A lot of students (point guilty finger in my direction) when they first start out punch with the stick rather than strike with the stick.  Make sure that you are extending your wrist.  Another thing that tends to happen in these drills is that the partners are too close.  Make sure that you are within medium to long range while doing this drill (hold the stick out to your partner so that you would just be able to touch his hand with the tip of the stick).   

Just some suggestions...

Regards, 
Walt


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## bart (Jan 26, 2005)

Hey There, 

Like others have said, I would go a bit slower to train proper form. The next thing to examine would be body positioning in terms of stance. If you are sitting in a "horse" or "neutral stance" then you will have to either carry the sticks higher or widen your swing. If you are using a belayed stance (one foot forward) then you should make sure your torso is turned in the direction of the strike.

Another thing to examine would be the alignment of your hand with your arm, and what part of the stick you are striking with. One technique I suggest is taking a training dagger and going through the motions with it all the while keeping a constant eye on using the cutting edge on the non-oblique side. Try different combinations of stick and dagger to see where you are getting mixed up. Try doing it holding the stick and dagger in the same hand while going through the motion as well. Don't give up.


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## Tgace (Jan 26, 2005)

Many times, its coming from the wrist. If you are trying to get a little "wrist action" into the strike and your form/mechanics are off you wind up hitting yourself. At least thats what I have found...


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## John J (Jan 26, 2005)

Downward Fig. 8 or Redonda in Sinawali as I know it requires more fluid coordination than Heaven and Earth. And as many others have pointed out, you will need to start slowly until the proper orientation and mechanics are fully developed. Here are some things I emphasize: 

1)	Make certain that when you strike you emphasize knuckles forward. This focus will ensure you strike/slash correctly and will minimize the chances of you hitting with a backhand which is a common mistake. If possible, use training swords for solo training unless you have a pair you can bang up. 

2)	The first 2 strikes target your opponents left side of neck or upper left sector while the 3rd hits the right side or upper right sector.

3)	Typically, I would never suggest practicing Sinawali in a squared stance regardless if you are doing the partner drills because it does not help you coordinate your footwork with your striking. This is one of the reasons I do not let my guys do footwork alone. It is fair knowledge that certain strikes, defense etcare more effective with certain footwork. However, if you want to refine the Fig. 8 from a frontal view then stand square in front of a mirror. Although you may start at wide angles, your goal should be to narrow the angles just outside the parameter of your shoulders.  

4)	A basic rule of thumb when performing Sinawali is when you are striking with a forehand, always step and strike with the same side. Considering you are utilizing triangle footwork and that you are in a right lead, simply take a slight step with your right foot and begin to strike. By the 3rd strike you should be in transition and stepping back to the point of the triangle with your right foot. Obviously, your next move will be to enter with your left foot with simultaneous strike. This basic theory will develop your mechanics, balance, coordination and enhance the power of your strikes.         

Hope it helps!

Yours in the Arts,

Guro John
www.swacom.com


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## CiNcO dOsE (Jan 26, 2005)

i would like to thank everyone for their responses.

i practice with one leg forward, and as what john_j was saying, i try to step forward and backwards.

after reading everyone's post, i did notice that from time to time, my body is pretty squared off to my target.  i would be throwing a forehand downward strike and my body remains facing forward to my target.

i practice the sinawali or downward figure 8 and utilize the reversed triangle footwork.  i also try them drills while walking normally.

i do have a wooden japanese sword, shoto, where the size is somewhere in between a wakizashi and a katana which i use for focusing on the edge of the blade.

i dont have a partner to do any drills.  mainly just me and my reflection on the window    or mirror.

with regards to chambering, i dont like the feeling of chambering way far back to get the weapon out of the way.  it feels like the weapons are so far away that it will take them longer to attack again.  well it make sense right, if they are too far then they will take longer.  i try not to chamber them all the way and i try to keep them in play, if thats a good term to use for it.  so i guess, my chambering is too shallow yeah?!

with regards to wide and narrow angles, you guys mean, like for wide my strikes would be more on the horizontal plane, and for narrow the strikes are more on the vertical plane!?

keep the info flowing.


thanks again,
5:12


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 26, 2005)

1.  Increase the angle of your strike.  If you are hitting yourself you are hitting more downward than angular.
2.  To keep the sticks from hitting each other in double stick drills, increase the distance between your wrists.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jan 27, 2005)

Hello C.D.,

Chambering as a basic method is initiated so that the next strike is out of the path of the other weapon.  It can be done very, very fast, and as you improve your skill level, the amount of pull back is lessened. Again as you start your practice a right leg, right strike(and vice versa) is an easy way to keep your body in alignment, later alternate left leg, right strike (and vice versa).

Keep practicing!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## John J (Jan 27, 2005)

A quick note on chambering (for this particular strike). The chambered hand should rest no further than under the striking arms tricep. If you are in a transitional chamber above then your fists should be approx. 6" in front of the shoulders. In addition, condition youself to position the chambered stick as close to upright as possible. It may not be easy but try to keep the point up rather than laying down with the pointing behind you. This is a common mistake that can obviously slow down the strike. 

In Ilustrisimo system, our goal with Fig.8 is to lessen the chamber. All  movement is eventually concentrated in the forearms and wrists. This is because power is not a factor. Protecting the centerline and efficiency to cut/slash is primary. 

Of course, every system has different uses with some who look for power.

Yours in the Arts,
Guro John
www.swacom.com


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## arnisandyz (Jan 27, 2005)

pretty much aree with what everyone said about body positioning and the X angle vs the ||.

another note on chambering:  Don't think of it as a 3 step process (Hit - chamber - hit) like a robot but as 1 continuous fluid motion more like a garden hose that has been turned on and is jumping around.  Smooth out and connect the techniques. You can also use the chamber as an excelleration point off of the body or arm for the follow up strike.


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