# KHF information



## whalen (Mar 3, 2004)

2004 Master's Course Seminar & Dan Test in USA

The KHF will have the event of the Master's Seminar and Dan test from June 24th to 27th in USA. 

KHF President and Directors of the Special Committees of the Federation will be present at the event. 

All participants for the master's course with a minimum rank of 3rd Degree will be entitle to receive Master's Certificate after completion of seminar and testing to 4th Dan. 

Other ranks lower than 4th Dan will receive a certificate of participation with their new Dan rank certificates. 

There will be a Meeting of Masters, and KHF officials after the seminar. 

The seminar will cover all of the requirements for Dan grade with the Korea Hapkido Federation. 

Education Materials will be provided. 

For more information, please contact the below; 

Director & Master Harold L. Whalen 
(Tel.) 781-337-1700 (dojang) 
781-308-6722 (mobile) 

ITIR Team & Master Fabian Duque 
(Tel.) 1-352-687-8600(dojang) 


Director & Master Sung Book Bae


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## glad2bhere (Mar 4, 2004)

Dear Hal: 

Just as a help to those of us on a tight budget, would you post the costs of the seminar and the cost of the testing? Thanks. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shadow warrior (Mar 4, 2004)

Details PLease?

Please post ALL costs associated with the seminar and Dan testing. This would be of great help to any who are thinking of coming down.

Keith Stewart
East West Hapkido


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## glad2bhere (Mar 4, 2004)

Dear Keith: 

I hope that additional info will be published here. However, there is also a dialogue on the KHF website and on the DOJANG DIGEST Net which are speaking to this same event. Hopefully, people will keep an eye open and share what might be found on one Net on other sources as well. Right now I can reliably report that the cost of the Seminar is $300US for the four days. I haven't yet found out if that includes the test fee, or what the test fee is if it is additional. More to come. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Mar 4, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Keith:
> 
> I hope that additional info will be published here. However, there is also a dialogue on the KHF website and on the DOJANG DIGEST Net which are speaking to this same event. Hopefully, people will keep an eye open and share what might be found on one Net on other sources as well. Right now I can reliably report that the cost of the Seminar is $300US for the four days. I haven't yet found out if that includes the test fee, or what the test fee is if it is additional. More to come.
> 
> ...



The Korea Hapkido Federation will hold a Master's Seminar and Dan Test from June 24th to 27th in Ocala, Florida. The event will be hosted by Master Fabian Duque, a member of the KHF IT Team. 

KHF President Oh, Se-lim and Directors of the Special Committees of the Federation will be present at the event. The following masters will be present and will assist in teaching the seminar: 

Kim, Nam-je, KHF 8th dan 
So, Myung-il, KHF 8th dan 
Lee, Chang-soo, KHF 8th dan 
Bae, Sung-book, KHF 7th dan 
Harold Whalen, KHF 7th dan 
Holcombe Thomas, KHF 7th dan 

All participants for the master's course with a minimum rank of 3rd degree will be entitled to receive a Master's Certificate after completing the seminar and a testing successfully passing a 4th dan test. 

The seminar will cover all of the requirements for dan ranking as required by the Korea Hapkido Federation, and education materials will be provided. 

Other ranks lower than 4th Dan will receive a certificate of participation with their new Dan rank certificates. 

There will also be a meeting for masters and KHF officials after the seminar. 

The seminar will be held at: 
Hapkido Korea International 
9353 Maricamp Rd. 
Ocala, FL 34472 
USA 

The cost of the seminar is: 
$300 (American) for individuals pre-registered before May 21 
$350 (American) for door registration 

Please contact the following individuals for more information: 

Director & Master Harold L. Whalen 
(Tel.) 781-337-1700 (dojang) 
781-308-6722 (mobile) 

IT Team & Master Fabian Duque 
(Tel.) 1-352-687-8600(dojang)

******* 1-352-454-1291 ( Mobil )

Director & Master Sung Book Bae 
(Tel.)82-2-3437-3530 

or email hapkiduquemaster@earthlink.netor 

or visit www.hapkidokoreainternational.com 




SEMINARIO DE MAESTROS Y EXAMEN DE DAN EN LOS ESTADOS UNIDOS

*

La Korea Hapkido Federation realizara el Seminario de Maestros y Examen de Dan, del 24 al 27 de Junio del 2004,*en Ocala - Florida. El evento es Organizado por el maestro Fabian Duque. Miembro del comite tecnico de la KHF.

*

El Presidente de la KHF, GM OH, SE LIM,* y los directores del comite especial de la Federacion estaran presentes en el evento.* Los siguientes maestros estaran presentes y asistiran en la ensenanza del seminario.

*

KIM, NAN - JE* KHF* 8th DAN

SO, MYUNG - IL KHF* 8th DAN

LEE, CHONG - SOO* KHF 8th DAN

BAE, SUNG - BOOK* KHF*7th DAN

HAROLD WHALEN* KHF 7th DAN

HOLCOMBE THOMAS* KHF 7th DAN

*

*

*

Todos los participantes con un grado minimo de 3rd Dan,* podran recibir el Certifcado de maestro despues de completar el curso y pasar el examen de 4th DAN.

*

El seminario cubrira todos los requisitos tecnicos para los grados de DAN de la Korea Hapido Federation. Se proveera el material Educativo.

*

Otros rangos por debajo del 4th DAN recibiran el certficado de participacion con sus* nuevos y correspondientes grados de DAN.

*

Tambien habra una reunion de los maestros con los oficiales de la KHF, despues del seminario.

*

El seminario se realizara en:

*

HAPKIDO KOREA INTERNATIONAL

9353* MARICAMP RD

OCALA, FL, 34472

USA.

*

El costo del seminario es:

*

$ 300 USA Dolares, para las personas que se registren antes del 21 de Mayo

$ 350 USA Dolares, para la personas que se registren despues de esta fecha o en la puerta.

*

Para mas informacion por favor contacte las siguientes personas:

*

In English:* Director and Master Harold* L Whalen

*****************( Tel ): 781 - 337 - 1700 ( dojang )

************************ ** 781 - 308 - 6722*( Mobil )

*

***************** Comite Tecnico ( IT TEAM ) Maestro Fabian Duque

*********************************************** ( Tel )**1- 352 - 687-8600 ( Dojang )

**********************************************************1- 352- 454 - 1291 ( Mobil )

********************

***************** Director and Master Sung, Book Bae

***************************************(*Tel )* 82 - 2 -3437 - 3530

* artyon:


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## Disco (Mar 5, 2004)

As was stated prior by glad2bhere, there is a thread on this subject on the KHF site. What is being discussed is the use of the term "seminar" and what is actually going to take place. This meeting is for 4 days, with the 4th days set aside for nothing but testing of KHF members. The other 3 days will consist of mat time with the people preparing to test. The only things that will be covered is the KHF curriculum. It will be a review of sorts. Nothing wrong with that unto itself, except that non-member people will be in attendance and if they are like me, they will be exspecting an exchange of information/ideas and technical evaluations and possible modifications. At a normal seminar, at least from my perspective, that's what takes place. This will not happen here, it can't. It would not be fair to the people testing to interject anything other than what they allready know and are familiar with.

Now if one should care to join the new KHF, then this would be a great introduction to what they have and it would assist them in restrengthing the organization after all that has transpired. I have nothing but respect for Master Whalen and Master Duque. They have stepped forward at a time of need and are doing major rebuilding. This is for all those people that think a seminar is along the lines that I have stated. By posting this, I am actually trying to do a service to both parties. I would hate to see people attend and then start a new battle because they feel they may have been mislead and wasted their money. 

Respectfully
Mike Dunn  :asian:


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## glad2bhere (Mar 5, 2004)

Dear Mike: 

I think you make a good distinction. The focus of this seminar is very narrow when compared with what a lot of folks do in the general population. From what was communicated to me, the first three days are essentially training in material as organized and executed according to KHF curriculum and standards. The last day is for testing, for those who want to take a swing at being tested under KHF auspices. As it stands for me, I intend to use the seminar a few different ways. One is as a goad to give me something to work towards. As a teacher, I don't always get a chance to have a non-competitive event to work towards, though the Internationale in Jackson going on this weekend has served me well in this capacity in the past. Another use is to get a familiarity with the KHF curriculum which bears many resemblances to the WHF and SIN MU Hapkido curriculums. Finally, it is doubtful that GM Myung will be able to test me for 4th dan any time soon. With his steadily declining health there is ever chance I may not get a chance to take this test at all. Hope I'm wrong. However, the experience of being tested by highly-experienced Hapkido teachers (whether I pass or not) can only be good experience against the time I must stand in front of GM Myung and do my thing.  

Gotta feeling that the next couple of months are going to be pretty busy. I may even take a road trip to see Hal and let him give my stuff the once-over. Hey! Maybe we can organize a kind of pre-test of sorts. Whatcha think? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Mar 5, 2004)

Bruce, that could be something good. Hope you get the chance to get 4th thru your Instructor, I know it would mean a lot to you, but if that's not a possibility then gearing for the KHF is a good idea. I wish you good luck in your endeavors.

I had intended to go to the Mississippi seminar, but was unable to clear the time. It would be nice for the opportunity for people to get together for an open session before the KHF get-together. 

Mike


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## whalen (Mar 28, 2004)

The new U.S website for the khf has been launched Koreahapkiodfederation.net.

This website will list KHF Dojangs and keep people updated on the latest Happenings within the KHF both here and in korea it also has a pictures  gallery of instructors of the KHF.


 Hal


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## dosandojang (Mar 29, 2004)

Thanks to Masters Whalen, Lim and Clay!!!!


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## whalen (Apr 3, 2004)

Fellow Hapkido-in,

I apologize for not sending this letter out sooner but given all of the problems that were caused by a certain individual within the Hapkido community -- which has done more to damage the image and the reputation of Hapkido and that of the KHF than anything in recent memory --  I have been spending most of my time defending rather than promoting the KHF.  Enough said about the past -- it is time for us as leaders, masters, and instructors to move forward with our heads held high and with pride that other organizations will salute and Hapkido-in around the world will admire.

It is time for the KHF, and all of us, to move forward by setting a standard by which we all teach Hapkido and live by. This is a group effort  along with an individual dedication. It takes sacrifice on all of our parts, but the end result will be well worth our effort. We are ALL given a chance to be part of a movement that will be talked about world wide -- the unification of  Hapkido not in words but by our actions.

The importance of the Hapkido kwan should not  be over looked as it is our individual roots and our family history. But now it is not a kwan issue -- it is a federation issue.  We, as members, have to do our part to support the efforts of the organization. If we want the federation to succeed, then we have put the federation first and foremost. I am not asking you to forget your roots, but, as they say, we have to stand united or individually We will Fail.

The Federation will be having a seminar in Florida this June as you all Know. I will be there, as will other senior Masters of the KHF. It is a chance for some of us to meet or rekindle old relationships we made through the years -- with no politics, just Hapkido. Remember the message we are trying to send to the world -- we of the KHF are doers, not talkers. I am looking forward for the chance to meet everyone.

When I was asked to be the U.S. Director for KHF, I had many questions about what was expected of me and what my role was to be. Those that know me know I will do everything I can to assist those that need help. My office and my Dojang are open to all of my Hapkido family.  So let us all "walk the walk and not talk the talk." When I say the KHF is with us, I put my reputation  on it .



HAPKI....

Harold L. Whalen
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation
artyon:


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## whalen (Apr 6, 2004)

With the June seminar rapidly approaching, I would like to invite all Hapkido-In, regardless of affiliation, to come to the Mudo Academy for a review and workout. I will cover as much material as time allows. This is not a seminar. Instead, think of it as a chance to get together, workout, exchange ideas, and sweat on the mat.

The dates are Sat. and Sun., May 1 and 2. There will be a $10 mat fee.

If you are interested, please email me at whalen@mudoacademy.com.

HAPKI

Harold Whalen
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation :asian:


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## Black Belt FC (Apr 8, 2004)

Sir,

Email information to masterlugo@blackbeltfitnesscenter.com

Will try to come up...


Lugo


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## Kodanjaclay (Apr 8, 2004)

Master Whalen,

Will you be doing mini-seminars? Also, as the US HQ, what will be the policy for Hapkido-In to visit and train under the guidance of the American leadership?

Thanks,
Frank


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## whalen (Apr 12, 2004)

Kodanjaclay said:
			
		

> Master Whalen,
> 
> Will you be doing mini-seminars? Also, as the US HQ, what will be the policy for Hapkido-In to visit and train under the guidance of the American leadership?
> 
> ...




We do not have any seminars planned but there are some in the works. Also anyone that wishs we have a Dojang with an open door policy .


  Hal artyon:


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## Black Belt FC (Apr 29, 2004)

MASTER WHALEN,


On my way up for the workout, hope to meet other martial artist! See you then...........

ML


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## glad2bhere (Apr 30, 2004)

Just to reinterate: 

There is a pre-test going on this weekend at Hals' school. I will be there as will a few other folks. The focus of the weekend is to have material reviewed and participants given an overview as to what to expect in Florida come June. Even if people do not want to test, but would like a peek at what KHF Hapkido is about maybe this is a time to meet the US Director and get some questions answered, yes? I know folks have made comments about the cost of the big show in June so this might be a nice light-weight alternative. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Black Belt FC (May 2, 2004)

This past Saturday I navigated and snaked my way up route 95 to Mudo Academy in Weymouth Ma, on my arriver I was warmly greeted by Master Hal Whalen (title rightfully earned) and Hapkido veteran members of his school.



Master Whalens vast generosity to share his schools facilities was surpassed by his willingness to share his in-depth knowledge of Hapkido. Every one of his superior demonstrations was breath taking, exciting and was well worth the trek. Hes ability to switch from one technique to another is tangible proof of his ability as a Master technician.



The school with its well-padded tile floors is exactly what the doctor order but envy of any starving chiropractor. The ocean gentle floor even though gray calls out to the practitioner to springboard free-fall into its arms. The slap out applause was many within the several hours spent kicking, punching and falling. 



Im looking forward to another visit next year and hope to see new faces and make new acquaintances. THANKS MASTER WHALEN!!



Lugo

:asian:


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## whalen (May 3, 2004)

Thank you for your kind words .

I was happy to hear that we made you feel welcome. It was both honor and a privilege to share the mat with people whom care about Hapkido the way most of us Do ,

i am looking forward to visiting your dojang in the Future.

   Hal Whalen artyon:


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## Black Belt FC (May 3, 2004)

Correct posting the first was a rough draft that was copy and  pasted by mistake.... 



This past Saturday, I navigated my way up route 95 to Mudo Academy in Weymouth MA. On my arrival, I was warmly greeted by Master Hal Whalen (title rightfully earned) and Hapkido-veteran members of his school.



Master Whalen's vast generosity to share his school's facilities was surpassed by his willingness to share his in-depth knowledge of Hapkido. His superior demonstrations were breathtaking and exciting, and made the trek worthwhile. He's ability to switch from one technique to another is tangible proof of his ability as a Master technician.



The school, with its well-padded tile floors, is exactly what the doctor ordered but the envy of any starving chiropractor. The gentle floor calls out to the practitioner to springboard free-fall into its arms. The slap out applause was frequent during the two days spent kicking, punching and falling.



I'm looking forward to another visit next year and hope to see new faces and make new acquaintances. THANKS MASTER WHALEN!!



Lugo


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## glad2bhere (May 6, 2004)

Dear Hal: 

Guess I must have really misunderstood what this get-together was supposed to have been about. Certainly was nice to spend some time at your school but I don't think we quite got around to 

a.) Discussing, comparing or contrasting KHF requirements vice our own particular kwans

b.) reviewing what one might expect in a KHF testing situation

c.) examining the forms we are expected to know--- or at least the KHF forms we are expected to know

d.) examining what we might expect in the Masters' course

e.) getting a definitive answer on Fabians' situation and its implications for the June event

As far as June goes right now its pretty much a certainty that I will need to beg-off. Chalk it up to my own poor judgement. I should have known better than to show-up nursing a recovery. The leg is back to square one--- lets make that a "negative" one--  but as the Chicago Cubs fans say "there is always next year."   

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (May 6, 2004)

First let me try and answer your questions. 

One we all know the KHF is working on their syllabus for the ranking system this has been stated many times.

second  when i talked with you on many occasions I stated  I was covering the syllabus of Chun Do Kwan and you understood that.

Third you asked to be assessed in-regarding KHF Rank ? You left Before anyone could cover the three weapons forms or before anyone had chance to explain what is going on with the KHF and or Fabian .

Hal


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## glad2bhere (May 6, 2004)

Whoa-kay. My Bad. Guess I had it figured wrong from the git. Notta problem. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (May 13, 2004)

OK, there's no really soft or complimentary way to address this. Just received an e-mail stating that the KHF June seminar and Masters course is being cancelled, due to lack of interest from.........the people who were supposed to represent the KHF. No offense to anyone in particular, but it looks like the KHF is falling on it's sword.


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## glad2bhere (May 13, 2004)

When the whole ugly mess with Hackworth blew=up there was a time to step back and cut the losses. 

When the resultant chaos of disenfranchized folks cluttered the communication pathways looking for homes and spinning their sad stories there was a time to cut the losses. 

Now the KHF has failed at the one moment they could have really shown brightly and, once  more,  its time to cut the losses. 

There is simply no saving people from themselves, even when the obvious truthes were laid-out and the needed decisions made clear. I cannot imagine anytime in the future when the present decision-makers will ever be able to transcend their bond with their prejudices and see beyond  short-term answers or immediate gratification. Yes, its sad. Patience dictates that I need to be able to wait until these folks grow beyond their limitations and maybe it might happen. All the same I'm not willing to take that gamble. Life is just too short.  FWIW. 

BTW: As a small but related thought I was considering what the implications might be for others who practice under other Hapkido masters, and to a larger extend to folks who practice other KMA under other masters. Is it possible to still have confidence that the master serves the greater good of his art, his organization or himself? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (May 13, 2004)

I am sad to hear that the hard work Hal and Fabian have put into this is not bearing fruit at this time.  One thing I know.  Hap Ki Do people are resilient, and I am sure Hal will continue his efforts if the people who encourrage him in the first place will stand by and support him.


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## dosandojang (May 13, 2004)

Cheers to Masters Whalen and Fabian for all of their hard work!


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## Disco (May 13, 2004)

Perhaps the time has come for American Hapkido-in (This was mentioned a few months ago), to formulate a new American (KHF) organization. There are more than enough high ranking Masters to put together a governing board and do it right. To quote an old saying, "If you want something done right, Do it yourself"........ Surfice to say, not much is really being done right as of present.


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## whalen (May 13, 2004)

There are certain things i will not go into or divulge because it would be like feeding Roast-beef to the sharks while it is strapped to your leg,,,,,,

Hal


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## Kodanjaclay (May 13, 2004)

This si why I chose to be on the fence. This going back and forth seems to be habitual. For example, in my case, I was told one thing by one party, contradicted by another, and then in the same conversation Korean representatives from KHF said both.

I agree with Bruce. We need to move forward, do the best we can, and work together to better our art, and ourselves. In the end, KHF is a Korean organization, but we are not Korean. There are masters here and in other countries just as talented. If they will not support us, then we must support ourselves, but we must first begin by acting like martial artists. Personal attacks, and airing of perceived, or real, dirty laundry does not help. We must project a strong image, as we are only as strong as the image we show.


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## dosandojang (May 13, 2004)

Amen Master Clay, amen...


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## kwanjang (May 14, 2004)

Seems to me that some folks are ready to jump ship before the water hits the deck.  Perhaps Hal has not had a chance to work things out, and all that is needed is a bit more patience AND greater meaningful support.

I have run my own org for thirty years now, and I know from experience that things take time and mistakes will be made.  I also know that most martial artists worth their salt will not quit until they give it their best shot... that is just the way we are.  Any org. needs to have its members pull together in a crisis, and this is a time where KHF members need to ask Hal and Fabian "what can we do to get things right".

I am not a KHF member; however, I would hate to see the former rep get the last laugh.  Having said that.  Hal, IS there anything I can do (even if I'm not a member)?


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## glad2bhere (May 14, 2004)

Sorry, Rudy, but I think we have a difference of opinion here. 

The problems are grossly systemic in the KHF. The ugliness with Hackworth was just the tip of the iceberg (Note: "iceberg": Canadian term meaning "I'll take mine with ice"    ). The same is begining to happen with Julian Lim and the KOMA program HE is starting. These folks are just the lightening rods. The storm is among the various players who are each tussling for their own turf in the KHF and whose names will rarely hit the light of day. Even Bae and Johnson--- while closer to the fire--- are not the actual propagators of this chaos. Time will not solve the problem because it is indigenous to the Korean approach for splinter groups to vie for power. Ascribe it to a tribal heritage if you want to but this approach to political things has been around for centuries. I can also say that Reason does not enter into this as the desire for power and influence is not Reason, but Emotion-driven. Unfortunately Hal and Fabian and a number of other non-Koreans cannot do much as they are simply not respected as equals or peers in the KHF hierarchy. The people who are fighting to make decisions in the KHF feel they are dealing with a distinctly Korean product of a Korean culture and folks such as Hal and Fabian are just tokens allowed in to put an egalitarian face on an elitist organization. 

I honestly wish things were different, but they are not and won't be because the people who make the decisions don't wan it to be. And by the way we can't blame Oh See Lim either. He's just an old person who does what he is told and changes his mind depending on who is standing closest to him at any given minute. Find the guy who makes decisions about where Oh See Lim goes and why and you will get a lot more answers----- IF you can get them to come out into the light of day. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay (May 14, 2004)

Rudy,

I agree with Bruce on this. I have been watching this thing since it began. Master Whalen with all of his skill is doomed to fail. The KHF is being "controlled" by a couple of Kwans that are rather xenophobic. They have been pushing for complete control for a couple of months. I can understand though if they use the model provided by Hackworth as a basis of thought for all American Hapkidoin.

Like Bruce, I wish it was different. i thought there was going to be sweeping changes and that what we would end up with is a true leadership for the art, that might eventually become the NGB. I don't think we will see this in our lifetime. I do hope and pray that I am wrong, because some of the best Hapkido training I have received has been from KHF sources, notably JinJunKwan. (I'm not saying that other KHF kwans are not good... only that I have not had much expereince with other Kwans.)

As a former soldier, I chose Master Lim's SMK because of its military slant. All of the KOMA-USA guys are military or former military, so that gives us something to work with. Then keep in mind that we have all trained together in some fashion, and voila. We would like nothing better than to be able to rely on KHF training, but I don't think that is going to happen.


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## Disco (May 14, 2004)

Seems to me that some folks are ready to jump ship before the water hits the deck

Using the same anology, if it's a slave ship - you bet........... The past and now the current, along with many remarks from people in general regarding Koreans and their attitudes toward outsiders, has shed a big bright light on realism. For whatever reason(s), you were smart enough to start your own organization 30 yrs ago. Surfice to say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. To be perfectly honest, it's time for the "stepchild" to stand on it's own, cause the parent(s) don't care about it. 

Master Whalen, with respect, metaphors don't seem to be your strong suit (roast beef on the leg with sharks.......... Hello!  :idunno: ). If there is something to say,.....then say it. If there are plans in the works for something homegrown, shed some light on it. They say light makes things grow. Being vague only lets people assume that someone may be playing both ends against the middle. There's been more than enough of that already.


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## Kodanjaclay (May 14, 2004)

Unfortunately, I think you are right. And it is very sad too.


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## kwanjang (May 15, 2004)

I wrote my reply before Fabian informed us that it was the KHF folks who declined to come for whatever reason.  As non member of KHF, I have no information other than what I see on these forums.  Suffice it to say that I am as ignorant as it gets when it comes to KHF politics.  My reasons for saying what I did was simply based on fear that our "buddy" in FL migh have thrown a curve Hal's way.  I just hate to see good people like Hal and Fabian fail because of lack of support.  I stand corrected.  :asian:


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## kwanjang (May 15, 2004)

Disco:
I began NKMAA when my GM left the area and we were sort of in limbo.  With a few schools in our area being affected, I started a small org to keep things going.  As time whent by, it kept on growing because of the many problems Korean based orgs seemed to run into (the KHF is an example).
Now, we have grown into a world-wide non pofit org that is not interested in politics... just recognizing honest hard work and sharing technique.  Seems to work for us so far.


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## Disco (May 15, 2004)

Kwanjang, I applaud you for all your years of dedication, to not only your training and teaching, but even more so for following your heart. The path one decides to follow, in making the MA's their calling, is a lonely one and with very little return for their effort. Hold dear the truths, that you have influenced many people and have probably even saved some from a life of less than honorable ending. Many of the Masters of old, traveled the same road that you have journeyed on, so be of untroubled mind and a fullfilled heart, for you are in excellent company. 

With much respect.... :asian: 

Mike Dunn


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## kwanjang (May 15, 2004)

Master Dunn:
Thank you so very much for the encouragement.  It sometimes IS lonely, and it is people like yourself who just pop up to give a boost that keeps everything in focus.  Thanks!


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## dosandojang (May 15, 2004)

I second what Mr. Dunn said!


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## whalen (May 16, 2004)

In light of the recent announcements regarding the cancellation of the June Instructor's Course and Dan Testing, I would like to invite all interested Hapkido-In to Ocala, Florida during the previously scheduled dates (June 24-27) for a Friendship Workout/Seminar. 

This seminar will be hosted by Master Fabian Duque and lead by myself, Master Holcombe Thomas and Master Duque. The fee for all 4 days of the seminar (not including hotel or travel expenses) will be $100 (U.S. Dollars). 

As the U.S. Director of the KHF, I understand the immense burden that the cancellation of the Masters Seminar and Dan Testing has imposed upon all of you who were planning to attend. I too have found this cancellation to be an incredible inconvenience. 

In order to show our support for Hapkido, however, and those who were planning to attend the Ocala event, we will move forward with this training seminar in lieu of the previously scheduled Instructor's Course and Dan Test. It is our hope that these four days will allow each of us to forge new friendships within the American Hapkido community while learning more about the art which we all love and cherish. 

In order to prevent any confusion, I must reiterate that this is a Friendship Workout/Seminar. It is open to all Hapkido-In, regardless of organizational affiliation or belt rank. It will NOT offer qualification towards instructor licensing under the KHF and Dan testing will NOT be performed. 

Through myself, Master Thomas and Master Duque you will be exposed to the curriculums of three different Hapkido Kwans and learn more about what KHF Hapkido has to offer. So prepare to train hard, sweat and make new friends. Also, feel free to bring your camcorders! 

Details regarding the exact schedule will come at a later date. We do ask that those planning to attend notify Master Duque at the previously posted phone number/address as soon as possible, so he may have an idea of how many people will be coming. You may also contact him for other questions regarding hotel and/or transportation. 

With regard to the cancellation of the Instructors Seminar and the recent turmoil occurring within the KHF, all that I can say is stay tuned. I will not go into any details at this time as it would be inappropriate to do so until all of the facts are more fully known. Rest assured that I have been, and will continue to be, in constant contact will both Master Bae and Mr. Johnson about these matters. I will post information on this site as I learn more. Also know that both Master Bae and Mr. Johnson have our interests at heart and have been working tirelessly to rectify these issues within the KHF organization. 


Sincerely, 


Harold L. Whalen, 7th Dan 
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation


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## iron_ox (May 16, 2004)

Hello all,

For all of you that are watching the soap opera of the KHF continue to unfold, the Director, Sung Book Bae has just announced on the Official KHF site that he has been asked to resign by Oh Sea Lim.  But who really knows, since the site has no security and can be posted on by anyone with any alias.  

This is really good stuff, think, an organization that thirty years ago ran like a well oiled machine is now slowly puffing in reverse.  I feel genuinely sorry for Mst. Whalen and Duque as they continue to paddle in a ship that the captain and most of the crew are determined to sink...

Why are you all so set in allowing this organization to continue to throw curve balls at you?  Do you really need the KHF to sanction rank when you cannot even get them to commit to a seminar?  What right minded person hands over money to an organization that runs like this?

I'm sorry but what is there to work out?  The KHF as the KHA never had ANY of these problems - now it appears that a few select groups are calling the shots there - just look at their BBS - a very small dubious group from Europe appears to be running the whole show - they apparently have some influence and control over Oh Sea Lim and showed their hand today by posting that they had advanced knowledge of the cancellation of the US Course - or so they inply.  

With all the talent that is here in the US and all the students (and money) why is there no effort to create a body that the KHF would come begging to teach here in the US?  For that matter, why just the KHF?  Make all these organization court you as a group - not the other way around - 

The KHF membership in this country seems to have some honest, hardworking and sincere people trying to further Hapkido - so build on that base and make the drama in the Land of the Morning Calm a memory.  The KHF HQ only continues to reinforce all the negative aspects of Hapkido.  I realize I am not a member, but this ongoing, rather childish behavior on their part makes you all look foolish.  At this point, I would say that if you have to have Oh Sea Lim's approval, do it from a position of unity and strength and demand that the KHF give you all the recognition and respect that YOU deserve...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Black Belt FC (May 16, 2004)

*I read something about a* "*unified hapkido federation"  is this true??:idunno: *


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## dosandojang (May 16, 2004)

This is truly sad. I (as all of my Masters were at one time part of the old KHA) was one of the many people trying to join the KHF.....


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## whalen (May 16, 2004)

Just to answer a few of the questions being tossed my way, My instructor is khf as is his Master, I also was KHA long before there was a KHF.There are some things that  I promised not to leak out until the i have been told to do so out of respect and not to mislead or misinform

My Master still teaches there and holds a position of authority within the 
KHF it could embarrass him and his dojang. He has been my instructor for over 25 years and I have not paid him tuition since 1977 . So i guess he is also a money hungry Korean and i am considered his family as are my students.
The funny thing is most of the people doing the complaining are not KHF ?

Hal


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## whalen (May 16, 2004)

Just to answer a few of the questions being tossed my way, My instructor is khf as is his Master, I also was KHA long before there was a KHF.There are some things that  I promised not to leak out until the i have been told to do so out of respect and not to mislead or misinform

My Master still teaches there and holds a position of authority within the 
KHF it could embarrass him and his dojang. He has been my instructor for over 25 years and I have not paid him tuition since 1977 . So i guess he is also a money hungry Korean and i am considered his family as are my students.
The funny thing is most of the people doing the complaining are not KHF ?

Hal


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## iron_ox (May 16, 2004)

Mst Whalen,

You are correct, some who "complain" are not KHF - but we are all Hapkido! Your group (the KHF) advertises itself as the "biggest, oldest and best" - and unsuspecting people believe that, so when your orgainzation suffers setback after setback that is in the public forum, we ALL look stupid, so for my part at least, until the KHF stops leaving "piles in the backyard", I'll continue to scold...


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## iron_ox (May 16, 2004)

Hello all,

Just popped over to the official KHF site, and boys and girls get your popcorn, 'cause the soap opera is beginning again...

In all seriousness, it really looks like some very good people are stuck in a very bad orgainzation.  

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (May 16, 2004)

Hello Hal:
Sincere best wishes in your seminar.  Sorry I won't be able to make it due to being busy doing NKMAA stuff.  I encourage all who DO have time to attend, because these are good folks teaching good stuff.  Nice seeing you in Jackson.


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## dosandojang (May 17, 2004)

All of my Masters were part of the old KHA too (Bong Soo Han, Yong M. So, etc.).  Too bad it (the KHF) is not being run like it used to....


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## glad2bhere (May 17, 2004)

Dear Hal: 

"......My Master still teaches there and holds a position of authority within the KHF it could embarrass him and his dojang. He has been my instructor for over 25 years and I have not paid him tuition since 1977 . So i guess he is also a money hungry Korean and i am considered his family as are my students.
The funny thing is most of the people doing the complaining are not KHF ?...." 

Sorry, Hal, but in my book it doesn't work like that. One simply cannot selectively tease out the pieces that one supports and pretends that the other pieces don't exist. This is especially true after reading many of the claims over the years that the KHF is one of the "largest", or "oldest" or "most influential" organizations in the Hapkido community. Afterall if these claims are true then it follows that if the KHF "sneezes" many in the Hapkido community may be in danger of catching a cold. Put in more specific terms, if the KHF is elitist  or xenophobic in its politics then it can't pretend to be egalitarian and provide equal opportunity and say to all. If the control of policy and procedure is in the hands of a select few non-elected officials how does one represent the organization as a "federation". Afterall how many times have you sat by the phone waiting for your orders? YOU are the US DIRECTOR fer krise-sakes!!! 

Yes, a LOT of the people complaining are not KHF members. And when people were selling phoney certs and rank, and pirating copies of KHF videos and make wild claims then Hapkido practitioners spoke up--- as they should have. If the KHF wants to represent itself to the Hapkido community in some way I say "good for them". But don't get irritated when members of the Hapkido community begin to question the KHF way of doing business because it reflects poorly on EVERYONE in the Hapkido arts--- KHF members and NON-members alike!

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (May 17, 2004)

This quote was taken from the HKD/TSD thread, but it's intention belongs over here.

"As I have read in other posts, even in Korea the majority of practitioners are children rather than adults". 

As referenced above, this information gave way to a perplexing thought. If in fact this information is correct, then all the posturing and verbal debates that are ensuing with the KHF are foolhardy. All they are doing is pushing away the "cash cow", i.e. Americans. I'm still hardpressed to understand this overly subservient mindset of people, within the KHF. The old saying, "Fool me once - shame on you.......Fool me twice - shame on me"., comes to mind. I've lost track of the number of times the foolishness seems to have been perpetrated though. To also quote Mr. Sogor, "In all seriousness, it really looks like some very good people are stuck in a very bad orgainzation". 

To use a football metaphor and in my best Howard Cosell voice....... "The ball is snapped to Whalen,..... He fades back, looking for room....... the blitz is coming.......................... "Welcome to the movie Heidi. Sit back and enjoy a wonderful romp in the Alps. Brought to you by the makers of Exlax....  :mst:


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## glad2bhere (May 17, 2004)

Dear Disco: 

I agree with your sentiments, and again I come from a little different angle on them that harkens back to the "betwixt-&-between" thoughts I made earlier. In this case I am going to draw on what Hal said about owing respect or fealty to his teacher.

I would be the very first to defend the fact that relationship--- especially a long-standing relationship with ones' teacher ----is a very personal one that merits all sorts of regard. And as much as Hal represents that relationship as important to him, I could be forgiven for assuming that his teacher must feel the same and return that respect to his junior. Translated into behavior I could fully expect to find Hals' teacher stepping into the fray with both feet and asking firmly "is there a problem with my student that requires my attention"? Some people find my support of the older KWAN system old fashioned and a bit quaint, however there is an aspect of the KWAN system in the relationship between teacher and student that simple membership in organizations doesn't touch. I find some of this not only in my own approach to KMA between the WHF and the YON MU KWAN, but have seen it with Rudy Timmerman as he relates to members of the KONG SHIN BUP student body and then again his NKMAA organization. In like manner I think I see the same in the way that JR West relates to members of the USKMAF and then again how he relates to his personal students. In many ways there are similarities and yet there are distinct differences. For Hals' sake I would hope that the director (kwan jang) for the Chung Do Kwan will step in and not just leave him out to swing in the wind. I hope this last part comes out right.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (May 17, 2004)

Bruce:

Let me make it clear so there is no confusion. I am offended by your remarks, your attitude and your blatant lack of respect. After acting like an undisciplined child at my dojang three weeks ago I have tried to take the high road. But since you are so willing criticize me in public I will take this sole opportunity to stoop to your level.

I noticed that when your actions were criticized by someone on the KHF BBS, you skirted the issue by stating, "the issue as I see it was NOT Hals courtesy OR Hals' etiquette." When I read that response I was amazed at how skillfully you re-directed the discussion off the point that was being made, namely *YOUR* rude behavior at my school. 

Not only were your actions on that day an embarrassment for all who witnessed it, it made it clear to me that you have a very long way to go before even being considered for promotion to 4th Dan. Your actions were that of a ten year old white belt. I know that all who were in attendance were wondering, "How long has this guy been in the martial arts?". For while you talk a great game when it comes to living a warrior code, your actions spoke volumes! And I mean this in all seriousness. Your behavior then and since has disgusted me.

You can criticize me as much as you want for everything you may or may not have received during your time in Boston, but nothing you say or will say can justify your behavior. I have kept silent until this point, expecting that even someone of your arrogance would realize that a *direct* apology to me (not through a discussion board) would be in order. Has this occurred?  Not even close.

Yes I am the U.S. Director of the KHF and if you read my most recent post on the KHF BBS site you will see that I am not blind to the true issues facing this organization. But let me also say in conjunction with the other KHF 7th Dan who witnessed your behavior, that you will never be a member of this organization if you wish to do so through either of our recommendations. 

Harold L. Whalen, 7th Dan
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation


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## whalen (May 17, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Hal:
> Sincere best wishes in your seminar.  Sorry I won't be able to make it due to being busy doing NKMAA stuff.  I encourage all who DO have time to attend, because these are good folks teaching good stuff.  Nice seeing you in Jackson.



It was a pleasure sharing the Mat with you. And i am sure we will share it again.


 Hal artyon:


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## Kodanjaclay (May 17, 2004)

Master Whalen,

Just out of curiosity, what do you see happening in the long run? Do you think that these issues will be worked out? Or do you think that we will, in the long run be better served by more "friendship events"?

Also, Danielle has been having a very hard time with high blood pressure. She will be seen tomorrow, and if it is still high, I believe she will be induced. I'll keep you posted.


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## iron_ox (May 17, 2004)

Mst Whalen,

So much for stooping to a certain level, but to finish with "you will never be a member of this organization...", come on, this sounds like misdirected anger.  



Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (May 17, 2004)

Dear Hal: 

".......Let me make it clear so there is no confusion. I am offended by your remarks, your attitude and your blatant lack of respect......" 

I doubt very seriously that you are anywhere near being offended nor do I, for an instant, imagine that you are qualified to lecture me on respect. You are certainly welcome to your take on things, but underneath everything you are saying you know the truth of matters. You have not taken the "high road" unfortunately. What you have done is served your own interests. Thats not really such a bad thing---- taking care of yourself, I mean. Where I have a problem is that you push responsibility for it off on other people. For my part I notice that you are content to continue to advertise my behavior at your school. Thats not really such a bad thing either, except it conveniently takes the light off of your behavior. I am quite sure you have polished the ability to deride other people to a high art. And I noticed that you didn't resign from the KHF as you said you would if and when Mr. Bae resigned. I was correct in saying that the issue was not your courtesy, or your ettiquette. The issue was then, and is now, that you do not do what you say you are going to do whether tendering your resignation, preparing individuals for an upcoming test or working with someone regarding standardized curriculum. It is as I feared, but needed to confirm to myself in person--- there is apparently very little room on Hals' World Stage for anyone except Hal. Had I known that the event you invited me to would have been nothing more than the Hal Whalen Show I might well have saved the time, effort and air fare. 

As I sit here at home and reading the rants of someone who represents himself as a 7th Dan, the US Director of the KHF, rather than apologize I think it is more appropriate that I thank you. "Thank you"  for demonstrating to the readership of this Net the actual quality one can expect from the KHF leadership. What makes this so poignant is that you cannot hide behind Korean culture,  poor linguistic skills, or even commercial interests as might your seniors in Korea. Instead, Hal, people get to see what they can expect should they cross you or any of the KHF leadership, disappoint your expectations or fail to support your take on things. This week its my turn in the barrel. Before that it was Jack O, and before that it was Mike M., and before that it was Todd M and before that it was Mike W. Guess we need to wait and see who your Egos' next target is. 

BTW: In closing I thought I would mention something. You have likewise made some reference to my recent 4th Dan and how you find that inconsistent with my behavior. Thats fine. You are welcome to your opinion. While you are breaking your arm patting yourself on the back you may want to consider that my behavior, while crude, was in part justified by your narcissism and lack of integrity. I abreacted in front of a group of students. For your part, you have only your huffing and puffing to justify your behavior here, and you just made a spectacle of yourself  in front of a considerably larger audience. As far as I am concerned you can keep your recommendations. I didn't need them before and I certainly don't want them now. 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## whalen (May 18, 2004)

Bruce: 

I am not going to be going back and forth.  I am, however, going to address the comments youve made. 


*What you have done is served your own interests. Thats not really such a bad thing---- taking care of yourself, I mean. Where I have a problem is that you push responsibility for it off on other people.*

What interests have I served Bruce?  What interests did I have in you traveling to Boston?  Was it monetary interests, Bruce?  What was the $10 mat fee I charged for an entire day of training? Who picked you up at the airport, gave you a place to stay at my home, took you out to dinner, paid for a tour of Boston harbor? Yes, Bruce that weekend was all for me, wasnt it?  It served my interests to have you to thrown around on the mat, right?  It served my interests to have someone of your stature come to Boston so I could hopefully convince you to join the KHF, right? Where you have it wrong, Bruce is that you cant see past your own self-interests to realize when courtesy and generosity has been extended to you. But when things dont go exactly how they should in your mind, suddenly others are not keeping their word.  

*You mention about preparing individuals for an upcoming test, comparing curriculums?  *

Did you not get a chance to see my entire curriculum in written form?  Did I not explain to you on more than one occasion that the KHF had yet come up with their official curriculum and that categories of techniques would be tested, but no specific techniques would be specified? Didnt others such as Masters Thomas and Rosenberg also make such comments on the KHF BBS. So what else did you expect? Did you tell me when you were there what else you wanted? Did you stay afterwards for additional help? Or were things not on your timeline, the way you wanted them to be outlined. Perhaps, you wanted to review every single technique up to 4th Dan my way and then repeat them doing them your way?

The goal of the day Bruce was to review as much Hapkido as possible. And train. Reviewing as much Hapkido as possible was the review for your test. Again, no specific techniques are specified by the KHF for promotion. Only categories. Plus, I had Fabian send you a list of the categories that were to be tested. Apparently, however, this was not enough. Its clear you had a very firm, fixed agenda in your mind, and one that was different from every other individual there. Three of the other instructors there that day were KHF, and had you not picked up your toys and left in a rant, you would have had a chance to see some of their curriculums as well. 

And please remember Bruce, there were others at my school that day.  Im sorry I couldnt have been your private instructor for the entire day. If you read the posts by others who were there, they seemed to have enjoyed it quite a bit. You even said that it was a good workout. Im sorry if the main thing you got out of it was training. I think its clear to anyone reading this discussion that even if the day was not what you had hoped for, most would have appreciated the generosity that was extended to you throughout your entire visit. But no. Because it wasnt what you hoped for, injuring your leg allowed you leave in a huff, yell at my students mother and call the whole visit a wash. If nothing else, this display told me everything I need to know about you Bruce.


*There is apparently very little room on Hals world stage except Hal.*

You didnt seem to have a problem video taping all of the techniques I was performing, did you? Or asking me to repeat them so you could get them from a different angle? I apologize for not providing you one of my personal students for you to throw around for each technique. 


*For my part I notice that you are content to continue to advertise my behavior at your school*

Where have I done this Bruce?  Have I made a post about your behavior, prior to the one yesterday?  No. It was my students mother who asked to respond to your behavior  the one you screamed at when she offered you icy hot for your leg. If you would like I could go into great detail about what the entire school thought of your attitude that day, but I wont and I didnt.  For some reason, you still seem to think that what happened that day was nothing and I am still amazed at how you are still waving your hand like it was nothing. Yet you post on the BBS, What complete and utter incomprehensible garbage this BBS is, the witterings of frail untrained mind and bodies  Do you see hypocrisy in a statement like this?  Untrained mind?

Had there been a personal apology TO ME (not through a discussion board), perhaps I would be more understanding. But no, your arrogance wouldnt allow it and your excuses still try to justify it. Why would carry you on like its business as usual after that display without calling me on the phone with your apology to my students mother coming only after she made a post on the BBS. Without that post, I know you would have ignored the entire situation entirely.

Let me restate it like this. Unless you were a ten year old child, NO Hapkido master and I mean NO Master would allow you back in their school after the way you acted that day.  Do you understand that now, Bruce?  Do you?


*And I noticed that you didn't resign from the KHF as you said you would if and when Mr. Bae resigned.*

First of all Mr. Bae has yet to officially resign. Second, Mr. Bae has asked me not to do so, even with his resignation. If keeping this position means that the channels of communication between the KHF and the U.S. will be kept open, then I will stay on as the Director. If it means that stronger ties can be formed then I will stay on as the Director. The fact that I tell you privately what I am thinking, only to have you discuss it in a public forum only demonstrates your lack of integrity, not mine! I made no official announcement about resigning so forgive me if sharing my thoughts with you at the time is not keeping my word. 

*
"Thank you" for demonstrating to the readership of this Net the actual quality one can expect from the KHF leadership. What makes this so poignant is that you cannot hide behind Korean culture, poor linguistic skills, or even commercial interests as might your seniors in Korea. Instead, Hal, people get to see what they can expect should they cross you or any of the KHF leadership, disappoint your expectations or fail to support your take on things. * 

Trust me Bruce.  I have kept silent for months of your petty rants on this and other sites. Others have asked why I dont come out on these boards and address some of the comments that you make. I know you like the idea of being one man against the world; someone who is misunderstood, someone who has the courage to say it like it is, someone who only has the art as his concern and who wants to live his life transparently to the Hapkido community so that they can learn from my mistakes and get the benefits of my learning as it happens.  Please. 

Others who know me can determine for themselves whether I am a pretentious person with an ego. I guess most men with big egos prefer to be called by their first name in class instead of Master. Yes  big ego, Bruce. You really do know me, dont you?


*This week its my turn in the barrel. Before that it was Jack O, and before that it was Mike M., and before that it was Todd M and before that it was Mike W. Guess we need to wait and see who your Egos' next target is. *

Again, let me ask you.  Where have I derided any of these individuals in a public forum?  Where?  If I have a disagreement with someone, I keep it private. Even with Richard Hackworth, where did I come out publicly and deride him personally?  Where Bruce? Again, the fact that you will take private conversations and air them in a public forum demonstrates your lack of integrity, not mine. I think everyone reading this will understand how you are willing to violate the trust of someone if the situation suits you. 

The only reason I have chosen to reply to your comments at this point is because you have gotten out of control. And please ask yourself  if its not your attitude and behavior, why do so many people want to have nothing to do with you? Is it because its you against the world, because you are the one standing for truth and justice? No, I think its because youve become an enormous nuisance. 

Even with all of the negative comments wielded your way on several discussion boards, I still felt it was best to meet you in person and see for myself what kind of person you were. Well I have, and again let me state that I was less than impressed.


*For your part, you have only your huffing and puffing to justify your behavior here, and you just made a spectacle of yourself in front of a considerably larger audience.*

No Bruce.  I think you have demonstrated that your ingratitude knows no bounds and that things should really be all about Bruce.  

Hal Whalen, 7th Dan
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation


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## glad2bhere (May 18, 2004)

Dear Hal: 


BTW: Re: The post you cited on the KHF

I take it you are absolutely 100% sure that I wrote that post? I mean, since I haven't been on the KHF website since sometime last week. No wonder you are in such good shape--- I mean, as much time as you spend "jumping" to conclusions. 


Fine. Its a big world. Your opinion and welcome to it.

Regards, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay (May 18, 2004)

Gents,

Let's move along to something a bit more productive? There are issues that are deep running here, but this venue will not solve any of them. If anything, airing them here, will only make matters worse.


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## glad2bhere (May 19, 2004)

Dear Frank: 

On the surface there are some superficial differences in attitude and perception and I think you are right when the discussion rolls over these issues. However, underneath the superficial differences are one or two very basic differences which are going to need to be faced down and these are the only reason I can see having anything to do with such an exchange. Since what I am about to say deals with cultural underpinnings I will try to keep this brief and simple but I think we both know how complex the problem is even before I start. 

Since the KMA are products of the Korean culture it is impossible not to have influences of Confucianism and Buddhism intermingled with the philosophy that holds these arts together. Both Buddhism and Confucianism raise respect for the community and authority well above the individual. So far well and good. 

In both Buddhism and Confucianism organizational authority descends from above. For the sake of efficiency and effectiveness members agree to submitt to the authority of the individual designated as the head of the community. Rarely, if ever is the authority of the leader questioned as this is considered an affront to the "Hwa" or harmony of the community (not necessarily the just the designated leader). Again, so far well and good. 

Where the system breaks down both in the East AND in the West is the point at which the leader is expected to care after the welfare of the individuals given into his charge. I have written on and discussed this very important point many times and it STILL is not acknowledged. The role of Buddhist and Confucian underpinnings in the KMA is a "balancing act" between the deference one shows a person in authority and the manner in which an authority figure cares after the people placed in his charge. THIS is where the problem comes in. Within the context of the culture this issue does not arise as the existence of both behaviors--- the deference of the juniors and the care of the seniors are opposite sides of the same coin.  However, in a Western society where authority is often seen as more dictatorial the care of the junior is often represented as more optional while the deference of the junior is STILL required. Soooooo--- what happens? 

A.) A person with a Western acculturation decides to join a Korean MA. 

B.) He sees that seniority is respected and apparently it is "disrespectful" to question or challenge or otherwise hold that authority accountable. 

C.) He SEES that this retiscence to hold authorities accountable is not unlike the similar position with authority here in the West and CONCLUDES that and the community is managed by a leader whose judgement and decisions are above reproach. 

D.) The result is that when challenged modern leadership invoke the Confucian Model and posit that they cannot be challenged or questioned. This is simply and PATENTLY NOT TRUE. The problem is NOT that the Confucian model does work but rather that modern KMA leadership have taken a wrong turn in its practice. If you examine the authority models in Korean history you will find that individuals who find themselves in positions of authority arrive in those places through the recognition of the community, NOT because someone bestowed a rank or gave a certification. Even Kings and Emperors were required to have what the Chinese called "the mandate of Heaven" in order to reign. 

_*If you reexamine our exchanges, Frank, underneath the yelling you will see a very basic conflict. Hal, as my senior has every right to chastise me for bad deportment. That is not only his right under KMA practice but is actually his responsibility. Without my teacher immediately present at the event Hal is a kind of "loco parentis" (lit: "local parent") to the event and would be expected to take me in hand if I misbehave. Where the conflict comes in is that I am likewise invoking my position as a junior and wanting to know why he did not take care of my needs in return for my deference to him. Reading his statements he believes that he did take care of my needs and I said that he didn't and that is where things stand. However, I believe that we are talking about something that is extremely important not just because of the differences between Hal and I but because the Confucian model is invoked--- then abused or misused--- at even the organizational level such as what we saw in Florida and now with the KHF. We realy need to discuss this even if we must perhaps step back from the issue between Hal and I for the moment. * _ Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (May 20, 2004)

This looks like a good time and place for some Yogi-isms.................

"You can observe a lot by watching".............................

"If the world was perfect, it wouldn't be"........................

"The future ain't what it used to be"..............................

And finnally,..........."When you come to a fork in the road.........Take it"

 :uhyeah:   :boing2:


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## dosandojang (May 20, 2004)

Bruce, that was a very well written, and thought out post. Bravo...


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## glad2bhere (May 20, 2004)

Dear Dosan: 

Thank you for the kudo-s. Unfortunately, as you can note by the silence that followed its publication (and as many times before over the years) noone is interested in dealing with this issue. As much as certain cultural institutions are invoked, sadly it is done only for the benefit of an elite few and not for the greater good of the arts. I could have predicted this silence as it has occurred on the Dojang Digest, E-Budo, Sabaki and Budo-Seek to name a few whenever I start asking people to actually discuss the value systems they say they abide by.

Over the years I have raised issues akin to this and have been challenged for my negativity, "poor martial spirit", immaturity, asocial and anti-social behavior just to name a few. I have been identified as "disrespectful", spiteful, ungrateful, mean-spirited, closed-minded and excessively ridgid. I have noticed through all of this name-calling that folks who might speak to the issues I raise never quite get around to talking about the issues. Its a classic case of shooting the messenger for the message. The only good thing I can say about any of this is that I am not required to continue to stick my head in this fan.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## greendragon (May 29, 2004)

Wow, I must have really missed some stuff on here.  I haven't been here for about a month... let the games begin!!!  First of all let me say that I have known Master Whalen for quite a few years... have we argued?  yes,, have we gotten mad at each other in the past? yes... have we aired our dirty laundry on a message board? uh no... I consider Master Whalen like a member of my family.. I can have disagreements with him BUT we are still family.  That being said, I don't talk about my family members with non family.  

Master Whalen has always been in my corner and I have been a recipient of his and Master McCarty's generosity in Boston and Hartford.  Master Whalen will go over and beyond what is considered Master's ettiquete and servitude.  He has done this numerous times with me in the past and very recently too.  I am not a member of the KHF but that didn't stop him from helping me out...  Without getting into the middle of this squabble just let me say that I have never known Master Whalen or ANY of his students to be anything but generous and fun loving..  When they get on the mat THEY GO HARD!!  When they are off the mat they are just fun loving people that are cool to be around.  IF you have had a problem with them then maybe the problem just might lay inside of yourself....

Bruce... I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon here but just let me say bro that let's see... you had a problem with Master Whalen, you had a problem with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae...etc...etc.. and it seems that in both cases you packed up your tent and left early... yes?  Well hmmmm... I'll leave it at that...maybe a little more downstairs and a lot less upstairs might serve your Hapkido training better...just a thought...

I WILL be in Ocala to train with Fabian, Master Holcombe Thomas, and my friend Master Whalen..  This training is not about the KHF or any other org. in my opinion, it's about getting on the mat with a few of the top notch Hapkido Masters in the United States and LEARNING!!!  In my opinion there is nothing better in the world to do than that...come on down and judge for yourselves... 
                       Michael Tomlinson


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## whalen (May 31, 2004)

To all members of Martial Talk and to those in doubt or those that wish to share the mat.......

In light of the recent announcements regarding the cancellation of the June Instructor's Course and Dan Testing, I would like to invite all interested Hapkido-In to Ocala, Florida during the previously scheduled dates (June 24-27) for a Friendship Workout/Seminar. 

This seminar will be hosted by Master Fabian Duque and lead by myself, Master Holcombe Thomas and Master Duque. The fee for all 4 days of the seminar (not including hotel or travel expenses) will be $100 (U.S. Dollars). 

As the U.S. Director of the KHF, I understand the immense burden that the cancellation of the Masters Seminar and Dan Testing has imposed upon all of you who were planning to attend. I too have found this cancellation to be an incredible inconvenience. 

In order to show our support for Hapkido, however, and those who were planning to attend the Ocala event, we will move forward with this training seminar in lieu of the previously scheduled Instructor's Course and Dan Test. It is our hope that these four days will allow each of us to forge new friendships within the American Hapkido community while learning more about the art which we all love and cherish. 

In order to prevent any confusion, I must reiterate that this is a Friendship Workout/Seminar. It is open to all Hapkido-In, regardless of organizational affiliation or belt rank. It will NOT offer qualification towards instructor licensing under the KHF and Dan testing will NOT be performed. 

Through myself, Master Thomas and Master Duque you will be exposed to the curriculums of three different Hapkido Kwans and learn more about what KHF Hapkido has to offer. So prepare to train hard, sweat and make new friends. Also, feel free to bring your camcorders! 

Details regarding the exact schedule will come at a later date. We do ask that those planning to attend notify Master Duque at the previously posted phone number/address as soon as possible, so he may have an idea of how many people will be coming. You may also contact him for other questions regarding hotel and/or transportation. 

Sincerely, 


Harold L. Whalen, 7th Dan 
U.S. Director Korea Hapkido Federation


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## glad2bhere (May 31, 2004)

Dear Michael: 

"....Bruce... I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon here but just let me say bro that let's see... you had a problem with Master Whalen, you had a problem with Doju Nim Ji Han Jae...etc...etc.. and it seems that in both cases you packed up your tent and left early... yes? Well hmmmm... I'll leave it at that...maybe a little more downstairs and a lot less upstairs might serve your Hapkido training better...just a thought......." 

Thanks for your thoughts, but to be perfectly candid with you Michael, I think this all comes down to a simple matter of priorities--- pure and simple. 

When I lost my job and members of the Hapkido community could have spoken-up on my behalf, I'm afraid that was not a priority for them. 

When I attended the seminar in Colorado taught by GM Ji and found his teaching approach lacking, instead of discussing the nature of teaching I was shouted down for not showing proper deference to a Hapkido icon. Again its a matter of priorities-- which was more important to people--- an evaluation of teaching skills or protecting a much loved personality. 

When I went to Mass for what I was lead to believe would be a deep examination of KHF material vis materials of particular kwans and individuals relative to the up-coming Masters' Course I was taken to task for offending the attendees and the matter of getting MY needs met never got addressed. 

When I attend an event and find that MY needs are not getting met,I leave. However I have noticed that somehow I am criticized for leaving early and not staying the course but the matter of my needs as a teacher AND student NOT getting addressed never gets talked about. 

When I raise the issues of "respect vs responsibilities" in the dynamics between senior vs junior, the issue of traditional weapons training versus introducing weapons material from other arts, the issue of investigating documented Korean martial science versus oral traditions of current Hapkido personalities nobody wants to hear about this. (quote Ray Terry- "who cares")

In short, Michael, there are a group of Hapkido practitioners who have a very specific way in which they view the Hapkido arts, Hapkido personalities, Hapkido history and Hapkido politics. They have made it abundantly clear that there is little room for people who do not share their way of experiencing the Hapkido arts. And when someone comes along and experiences the Hapkido arts in a different way, the messenger gets taken to task rather than the issues discussed. And if its is of any consolation I can report that this is not unique to Hapkido arts. Check the "Tang Soo Do and the Chinese Connection" on this same net and you will see in my exchanges with Robert that rather than being appreciative of getting some pretty sophisticated information regarding the subject, Robert was arguably antagonistic and arrogant rather than grateful. I think I can be forgiven if, after a few years of this sort of treatment, some part of me finally starts to realize that people want the KMA a particular way and have little interest in dealing with the facts when the prejudices are so much more interesting. 

In closing, I will say only that I hope the up-coming event in Florida is everything you and Hal, Fabian, et al desire it to be. For myself I no longer trust that the use of "friendship", "brotherhood", "unity" or "solidarity" are anything but buzzwords that folkks use to sugar-coat their advertizing. There is no room in your fraternity for disparate views of the same art and I don't think you have to hit me with a stick to get this point home any better than what the experiences of the last two years has. Sorry for the long post. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay (May 31, 2004)

Bruce,

You have been told ad nauseum, that there is no official KHF syllabus. I know that Master Whalen indicated that, and I know my very good friend Master Duque, with whom I have trained off and on for many years, is more than happy to qualify anytime someone asks.

Either way, when being taken to task, in your words, should it be done in a dojang with people present? Second, Master Whalen is senior to both of us. While I may not agree with something he says or does, as a student, my job is to learn what he trying to show me. Whether I think I know it is irrelevant. Why? Because there has been alot that I thought I knew, and then Master Yoon, for example of Jin Jun Kwan, would tweak it for me. Sometimes the most valuable lesson lies hidden.

Either way, no one is perfect. Not even Masters Whalen and Ji. Once this year is over, I intend on learning as much as I can because many of these Hapkido assets are not getting any younger. I waited too long to go see Hwang Kee, or to attend a General Choi event. Now it is too late.

As far as speaking out when you lost your job, what good would it have done? You apparently used government equipment and was taken to task. For the record, I DID say something to Hackworth, that this little battle of his was getting out of hand, and I recommended he take the high road and not pursue these disagreements as they were worthless. Little did I know that he was the instigator, but life goes on. What happened to both of us is now in the past, and you really have no alternative at this point but to move forward and do the best you can. I believe you have indicated that you are Buddhist... if so, do you remember the Second Noble Truth? Sources of Suffering? Analyze it and move forward. There is nothing more you can do here. As far as training with Masters, remember that they must give us what we need, whether we like it or not. Analyze the bitter, and remember Khum Son, humility.

I sincerely hope that this has helped in some minor way.


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## glad2bhere (May 31, 2004)

Dear Frank: 

Thank you. I want to most sincerely thank you. Your timing and phrasing could not have been a more poignant counter-point to what I wrote. Your response is EXACTLY the sort of response I have come to expect ANYTIME I raise the very points that I did in my post to Michael. IF YOU REREAD my post you will see that I offered myself as only ONE of a series of perhaps EIGHT examples of situations which are chronically avoided or ignored or derided. And remember, Frank, this is NOT done by folks other than those who represent themselves as studying arts intended to build courage, dedication, fraternity and character. Had I understood the depth of the hypocrisy such martial artisits are capable of maybe I could have foregone such an avocation where the promise of mutual aid and respect never quite fits the reality. On a happier note, while I do not see myself fitting into such a group of elites, YOU on the other hand show true promise. Given a few years, your past transgressions and misrepresentations will be forgotten and you will undoubtedly be taking your place among the recognized and accepted few to show your collective distain for anyone who thinks differently from yourselves. 

BTW: You MAY want to get your facts straight before you speak up on a subject for which you were only part of "rumor control". I was in the middle of that storm and have a sense I know just a BIT more about what was said and done than do you. For all their character assasination "unofficially", the principles never QUITE made it to court, choosing to settle rather than have to defend their case. Trust me, you are grossly misinformed. 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## greendragon (May 31, 2004)

Bruce,
My interpretation is this.... you go to different events with some of the highest ranking Hapkidoin on the planet.. it seems that you have an impossible time of just emptying your cup so that more knowledge can enter.  When it comes to Doju Nim Ji.. I have trained with him many times and the FIRST thing you must do is turn off your ego and prior training biases and just absorb what he is doing and saying.. for some this is impossible.  With Master Whalen I think the same thing must be done. 

 Whatever happened to going in and expecting nothing but a learning experience?  It seems to me that you are quick to judge teaching protocal, curriculum, etc... but you are very slow in judging yourself.  The reason I mentioned that you always leave early is to point out that while you have an overabundance of critical analysis you never seem to even last thru an entire event, do you see a pattern?  No offense but I think you would be a nightmare to have in class.. the perpetual cerebral know it all that is always comparing what is being taught to some prior knowledge that you learned or to some curriculum model you learned... with these previous attachments you would literally be impossible to teach.  This kind of mindset is literally as far away from the concept of Buddhism and Mushin as a person could ever be.
  Again, I don't mean this to be a flame at you just an observation over the years... I truly don't think you need anymore Hapkido training, I think you need training in ego control and more spiritual training.  For the record, I did warn you about the goings on with your problem about the Ocoee idiot and his gang.  Remember the private email I sent you about "those" guys.  But for some reason you found it necessary to keep in contact thru message boards and emails with the exact people who had affected your life so miserably.  When someone wrongs you you keep in contact with them and when people try to help you such as Master Whalen and Doju Nim Ji you rant and rave about how inadequate they are..  Again, no Hapkido training can help you... just my humble observation.  Again I am a long way from perfect myself so take this with a grain of salt but maybe you should research yourself and your actions and mannerisms more deeply before looking for Hapkido training.  If you are a Buddhist you need to reevaluate your training and mindset because it is not based on anything that remotely adheres to Buddhist precepts.  I am also a Buddhist and IF we were in a temple studying you would be getting beat across the shoulders for thinking too much.  Take care of yourself and please think about what I've posted.
                                                        Michael Tomlinson


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## Kodanjaclay (May 31, 2004)

Bruce,

You misunderstood my intent entirely. It is about moving on, not getting into some "elite" group. I myself have no desire to be in any elite group. I want to ensure that I have certain training oppotunities before they are gone forever. As far as MY transgressions, I have been taken to task and blamed for things which I could have had no knowledge of, and yet that fact never seems to rise. I even got some venom from you, and I didn't even know about your situation until it had passed.

Bruce, I know it is easy to blame Connolly and Hackworth, but at some point you have to stop and say, ok, I DID contribute to this. Just as I know I will face some venom and comments for some time, because I did not WANT to listen to others. I met Hackworth, and believed that he was right, and that he was the victim. That was my mistake. I have freely admitted my mistakes, publicly and privately and frm that point moved forward. Anyone else's issues are their own. I have done what I can. To whit, contact Mr. Burresse, Master Whalen, Master McClarty, Master Segarra, or any of the others that I contacted. It is a sad state of affairs that there are those who believe that my admission, which basically left egg on my face, was somehow engineered to help me. If it had not been for Masters Whalen, Timmerman, Pak and Lim, I would have retired from Mudo in its entirety. Masters Whalen and Timmerman offered guidance and Pak and Lim offered training. Some very hard training to be truthful. It seems everytime I turn around, Master Pak has found a new way to work me even harder... but it is good for my soul. Eventually I may decide to actively teach again, and I need this training to be able to help others, but first  I must help myself.

Those are my tasks.


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## glad2bhere (May 31, 2004)

Dear Michael and Frank: 

I want to sincerely thank both of you for taking the time and energy to respond as you did. No sarcasm, here. I genuinely "thank you" for your thoughts and want you to know that it IS important for me to think about what it is that I "brought to the party". Some part of what happened most certainly IS my responsibility and I cannot for a minute believe otherwise. 

If I can borrow your comment, Frank, the bottom line (n my regard) IS
ENTIRELY about "moving on".  I mention the issues that I did to point up how I view treatment in the past. I can't think of anything that will ever repair that damage. In YOUR case, Frank,  you have made a decision not to teach. In my case I have made a decision to wean away from dialogues and contributions such as the one which we are having here. To be perfectly candid I no longer have faith in the best interests, motives or agendas of the various people on these Nets nor those in the KMA in general.  I am glad that you both have been able to maintain your balance and I envy that to some point. For myself, I need very much to take care of myself. I think Michael is right about going into teaching situations with an open mind and I strongly recommend it to folks anywhere. For myself, I can no longer look at names such as Oh See Lim, Joo Bang Lee, In Hyuk Suh, Han Jae Ji  and many others and not see one more dog-&-pony show, a carnie barker, a till and a souvenir shop. Now before you start tuning up the violins, this isn't meant as a "poor me" kind of post. I'm just stating matter-of-fact-ly that I simply am no longer willing to extend myself and risk 
just one more act of faith  wherein, just maybe, some well-touted personality might actually turn-out to be everything he said he was. Just too many disappointments. 

Now I don't pretend disapointment will go away. If you ever saw me do a jump-spin-kick, my technique defines the word "disappointment".  However, its no longer necessary to make my work, goals and asperations a matter of public entertainment or fodder for whoever is looking to take anonymous pot-shots. I think I probably deserve better than that, and maybe we need to consider this my last word on the subject, 'Kay? 

 Again, thanks for your time and attention in these matters. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (May 31, 2004)

Hello all.  I just posted a reply on another thread about 'judging' others.  It seems that the folks posting on these forums waste a lot of time with negative things.  Yes, we do need to be warned about possible problems just to have a "heads up"; however, why is it we spend so much time in beating some of these issues to death.  It is like floggin a dead horse.  With all the talented people on line, why don't we give an honest effort to discussing technique or other worthwhile things some of the junior ranks could learn from.  Instead, we teach them all about deceit, anger, and all of those other negative things. We joined martial arts to get away from all of this didn't we.


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## greendragon (May 31, 2004)

Guys I just like to train,, everyday if possible with the best and most knowledgeable people I can find.  I hadn't been to this site in over a month.. didn't mean to make a bunch of waves but I will ALWAYS state what I thingk about Master Whalen because I know him... he is a good guy that will help out anyone..... so I had to spout off, that's all... I'm out again... see you all in Ocala if you come... Hap Ki!!!
                                             Michael Tomlinson


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## iron_ox (May 31, 2004)

Hello all,

Ok, let's see, Bruce is a "know it all" and (paraphrase) a "nightmare to have in class" - well, let's all pass a little judgement shall we...

Bruce comes down to my dojang about once a week, about an hour and a half haul for him.  We train, then we talk, we agree and we disagree, but I have never found Bruce to be a man who does not listen.  Listen and contribute, might be a better phrase.

Next, I read a lot here about tenet's of training - where did they come from?  I know that General Choi built them into TaeKwonDo, but I have never heard of such a thing in Choi, Yong Sul's Hapkido.  Now, maybe, other instructors have thrown them in, but when a tenet makes teaching and training ineffective, then it is uneeded in a martial arts school.  Anyone that walks into my school with other experience is encouraged to share, in fact, if they walk in with knowledge and play "dumb" I will be insulted.  When someone comes to me to train in Hapkido, and they have done Hapkido before, the stuff better look the same - no cup emptying needed.  If one of us feels that the stuff we know is not the same, something there ain't hapkido.

I, like Bruce, did infact understand that pre-testing type training was to know what would be expected during a test for an organization.  So, hey, glad I stayed home, cause Bruce and I would have been expecting the same thing.  An organization with 70+ different branches that tests under a unified flag has to be able to produce a group of common techniques from which to pull - those are what I understand Bruce was looking for - and not to get those and expect to test blind is strange practice indeed.  Funny, but the KHA never seemed to have these issues, what a mess now for this organization and its members, sad really.

Last thing for now, Bruce and I really do see Hapkido in two different ways, but that has never meant that we cannot train and learn together.  Funny, but if Bruce's posts are actually read I doubt all this confusion would ensue.  I know that Bruce (sorry to put words in your mouth buddy) wants to cut to the chase of the training, to get around the personalities involved and get to the heart of the matter.  At times, I think Bruce is 100% on track - in particular when I see people come to the defense of BS propogated by a "well known" instructor - not because they are right, but because they are well known.

The dojang in which Choi, Yong Sul taught for the last twelve years of his life had a dominant saying at the front of the class, it translated to "truth" or "virtue" - funny how so many that trained with him ingored that...

Rock on Bruce!

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (May 31, 2004)

Hello all,

One other thing that struck me is that many of you seem to think there is somethng wrong with a person expecting that if they attend a seminar that thier needs will be met - well what exactly is the problem there?

A teacher, or instructor, by definintion is one that teachs others, a good instructor teachs others to learn better by instructing to each student where they need to be taught.  Where is this inconsistant with martial arts instruction?  As I see it, a teacher must teach to the needs of the student, or he is not a teacher.

It amazes me that some actually see this as a problem, then I look at who is being referenced as the "teacher" and I wonder if the teacher actually believes that they have more importance than the material - when this happens, martial arts die - because a teacher that cannot meet the needs of his students to learn will be alone.

Expect more and learn more.  Lots of stripes on a belt should mean that a student should be able to expect more of a teacher, more detail and more depth and breadth of knowledge and a good way of transmitting it.  Stripes should mean that every student is taught to their potential and beyond.

Bruce is right to expect that his "superiors" will attend to his needs - if they don't they are little use as teachers.  And for those of you that really believe that you should just take what is given from a superior, not ask more or expect more, I have some bareknuckle puches into a chainsaw for you - duh.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (May 31, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> One other thing that struck me is that many of you seem to think there is somethng wrong with a person expecting that if they attend a seminar that thier needs will be met - well what exactly is the problem there?
> 
> ...



I agree with some of the above statements, but I also think that it is not quite so cut and dried.  As a teacher I DO have to be concerned about the welfare of the student; however, I don't lose sight of the fact that some students need to LEARN what it is they need.  Many beginners don't have a clue as to what it is they look for, and that is why I give them one month of free training.  This is NOT for the student's benefit alone.  I too want to see what they are all about, and if I don't like what I see I will not sign them up.  Some folks simply come to the wrong place.

Others change along the way.  For example, I have had to ask one of my best (lets make that most capable) young students to leave, because HIS road veered way off of what it is that I wanted to do in my dojang.  He became obsessed with the tournament fluff that I simply do not want in my school.  After teaching him for about ten years (most of that time his training came along great), I just felt I was no longer meeting his needs as an Instructor and HE was not meeting MY needs as a student.   Regardless of what others might think, I don't feel any less of a teacher just because I failed to meet one lad's dreams of becoming the next Bruce Lee.   

Similarly, when I give a seminar, I have to be concerned for the welfare of ALL participants.  If someone came expecting something that is way out of line with the content of my planned presentation, the best I can do is offer a refund.  I will NOT change the seminar content the rest of the participants came for.  Again, I won't feel any less of a teacher for doing that


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## iron_ox (May 31, 2004)

Hi kwanjang,

Your points are well taken.  I was more referring to the fact that what I see here is a guy that is being chided because he left two seminars early because for whatever reason they did not meet his expectations.  I could not agree more with this - when, as a younger student, I attended seminars that were clearly not what I expected, I always left, and when I felt that I was ripped off, I made no small point of making sure the instructor knew.

Its fine to be nice and respectful if the thing is simply not your cup of tea, but I would never feel it was warranted when I paid good money, and put in time, for something that was less than expected or less than it should have been.

I have always believed that hapkido was right for everyone, and have never tried to exclude anyone - my students and I have the same expectations of each other - they are simple - work harder, and all will get better.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Greg (Jun 1, 2004)

Bruce:

I've spoken with Master Whalen about the incident that occurred on May 2nd and I think that the comments you've made with regard to instructor-student relationships don't really apply here. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, because I agree with a great deal of what you have to say with regard to a student's expectations from his/her instructor. I also think that instructor-student relationships can be abused and this issue is hardly ever discussed. However, I don't think this is the issue here. Master Whalen doesn't mind dissenting opinions in the least and he doesn't expect everyone to always support his take on things. In fact, anyone who knows him well will tell you that he doesn't have much of an ego at all.

What I see is that he was offended by the fact that you didn't show any appreciation for the generosity he extended to you throughout the weekend. And had you told him during the training session that you felt your needs were not being met, he would have done everything he could to meet them. But...you never let him know. And if you know Hal you would understand that his intentions were to sincerely help you. You could have let him know what you felt you needed and this would have taken care of everything. I mean, what about the water principle? What about being fluid and flexible to the situation? 

Forget the instructor-student relationship for a minute and simply look at it from the vantage point of common courtesy.

If I opened my home to a friend and did everything I could to be a good host, but then something later in the visit didn't go the way either of us expected (say the pipes burst and flooded his bedroom), I would still expect my friend to be thankful for hospitality I had extended. It's also like being invited to someone's home for a 7 course meal and then getting upset when the dessert didn't quite meet your expectations. Instead of having the thought, "Dammit that dessert didn't satisfy me," why not take the attitude of, "Well that was nice that a friend invited me over for dinner and while it could have been better I'll thank him for his generosity and for the dinner as a whole."

This is why Master Whalen became upset. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a 7th Dan and you're a 4th Dan. It has nothing to do with you having different opinions regarding this-or-that. It has nothing to do with the KHF or his position within the KHF.

One thing that struck me about Master Whalen from the beginning was how he was not "caught up" in all the mannerisms that you so often see in some masters and instructors. Some will be so artificially formal it's instead of just being genuinely kind and respectful. And along with this, many use their rank as way to justify speaking or acting towards others in a somewhat condescending manner. This is definitely NOT Hal Whalen. 

Again, I know you might respond by saying that you're needs were not met. But again, this is someone that you met for the first time, someone that you were attempting to forge a friendship and someone that over the long haul had a great deal that he could offer to you. For that reason, good communication would have gone a long way. And instead of looking at it from the side that you didn't get your needs met - why not take a step back and simply look at the overall interaction as a whole. Were your actions that day a little over-the-top? If they were because you injured your leg and that ruined the possibility of testing for 4th Dan in June, I'm sure he would have understood.  I certainly would. But again...you never told him. 

Perhaps a little more flexibility with others might better serve you needs in the long run.  


Sincerely,

Greg Polites


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## glad2bhere (Jun 1, 2004)

Dear Greg: 

I think everything that you have said is accurate as long as we are focusing on me as an individual within the context of this particular situation on May 1 and 2nd. I made a clear point of saying that I had made my final word on the subject from that point of view so there is nothing more to say there that I can see. 

NOW, what about the other *7* issues I mentioned in my post of a couple of days ago that people tend to avoid talking about. Folks here on the Net can most certainly continue to bounce back and forth about playing the blame-game if they want to, but, honestly, isn't that taking the easy way out and isn't this what people do on these Nets over and over again. Its relatively easy to to point a finger and say "shoulda-coulda-woulda". Yes, if we need to continue to beat on this issue you are absolutely right. I could have gone to Hal earlier and said my needs were not getting met or why what we were doing was NOT what was discussed on the phone during the weeks earlier. And, no, the issue was never his emenities in welcoming me into his home. The issue is very specific, cut and dried. 

...............
I expected to focus on preparation for the up-coming test and to examine the relationship among execution of YMK, CDK and KHF material so as to have better idea of what to expect when attending a KHF event. Hal and I talked about this repeatedly on the phone weeks before I went. Was I angry about being reinjured and having my chance at the up-coming performance in front of KHF leadership cancelled. Damn right! Was I pissed about seeing the event I was grooming myself for disappear before my eyes? Damn right! But THAT is NOT the issue and raising my bad behavior does NOT address the actual issue as I see it. ............. 

The actual issue as I see it is one of a number of issues people do not want to talk about. To Wit: Does a junior have the right to expect to get his needs met from his seniors? I think the short answer is "yes" but while everyone seems to agree with this statement superficially, in actual practice the junior is generally expected to take whatever a senior dishes out with few questions asked. Witness how the KHF leadership is treating its juniors in America. And what happens when the juniors complain? Those juniors are told that they have to "learn" humility, or respect for seniors, or respect for the organization, or the "true martial way", etc.

IF you look at my earlier post you will see that there are a number of similar issues that come up in the KMA, are rubber-stamped with the obvious answer, but then in PRACTICE are NOT dealt with as people say they should be. I will say again, that it is my personally opinion that folks would much rather identify an individual and beat on that person than enter into an intelligent discussion about the hypocrisy in the KMA. If I may identify a perfect example of what I am talking about I direct your attention to Richard Hackworth who was raked over the coals for his various indiscretions. We have yet to hold the leadership of the KHF responsible for THEIR collusion in his bad behavior, their similar greed in chasing revenues, or their similar failure to provide certs that have been paid for. Again, if you want to continue to beat on me for my bad behavior I understand and you won't get an argument out of me. But if this string does what every other string of this type has done in the past, people will tire of beating on me and duck out to another string rather than stay here and hammer-out meaningful issues. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Jun 1, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU POSTED THIS!!! 

"Similarly, when I give a seminar, I have to be concerned for the welfare of ALL participants. If someone came expecting something that is way out of line with the content of my planned presentation, the best I can do is offer a refund. I will NOT change the seminar content the rest of the participants came for. Again, I won't feel any less of a teacher for doing that" 

Ok, Ok. So I understand that you would not change the stated goal of a seminar in deference to a particular individual. Certainly that makes sense. However you are known among a whole range of schools for your ability to shape things, on the mat, in the seminar to meet the needs of the individual student at the level at which you find them. You also have a huge reputation for making yourself available before and after the official time limits of the event to respond to the needs of the attendees. So, I would say that while you don't change stated goals, you certainly go out of your way to keep the parameters of the goals "elastic" where the student is concerned. 

I would take credit where credit is due, Rudy!  :asian: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Jun 1, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Its fine to be nice and respectful if the thing is simply not your cup of tea, but I would never feel it was warranted when I paid good money, and put in time, for something that was less than expected or less than it should have been.
> 
> I have always believed that hapkido was right for everyone, and have never tried to exclude anyone - my students and I have the same expectations of each other - they are simple - work harder, and all will get better.
> 
> ...



We are on the same track with the belief that Hap Ki Do is good for everyone, and I also try never to exclude anyone form training.  However, I make an exception if someone interferes with the training of the group in order to do his own thing.  In the case of my young student, I sincerly figured on havbing his mom save some $$$.  His training he could do in his own back yard, as Instruction had begun to interfere with the way HE figured his training should go.  Oddly enough, his mom continued to train with me even after I sent her son packing.  BTW, from the sound of your last sentence, you have a good school.


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## dosandojang (Jun 2, 2004)

I want to applaud and second what Kwang Jang Nim Timmerman just said. I also would like to add this. Frank and Bruce, you two are very smart, positive forces in KMA. Instead of arguing with one or both of you (which I have done, before I got know you both better, and vice versa), I hope that we can just work together in accomplishing our same, main goal...KMA! I will continue to support both (when you are on the same track)  of you with all of my being! Peace.......


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## Disco (Jun 23, 2004)

Slightly off topic with this, but I could use some information. The seminar/gathering in Ocala on the 24th. For some unexplained reason, the KHF web site that had the information has had a transformation. Any and all information has been removed. The site is now blank. E-mails are not being responded to....... Is this get together still on? If it is, what is the start time on the 24th? I find it more than stupid for someone to revamp/delete the entire site, right before this get together.

Thanks for any assistance.


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## glad2bhere (Jun 23, 2004)

As of three days ago I had a notice from Fabian giving all the particulars for getting to the location so I say that as of three days ago the event is still on. 

As far as the KHF website going south, somehow I think that was in the works a while ago. My sense is that this is preparatory to the sort of widespread outrage one might get should a particular someone be reinstated. Whatever floats their boat. Just so long as he keeps clear of any mat I'm using I could care less. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Jun 23, 2004)

Bruce, thanks for the update. Per chance, you wouldn't happen to have a copy of Fabian's particulars stored, would you? If you do could you e-mail a copy? If not, thanks anyway........

Mike

PS: You really think there's a re-instatement in the works? Personally, I think that would be a deathknowl for the KHF, but money talks.... :idunno:


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## glad2bhere (Jun 23, 2004)

Oooopppsss. Sorry. I had the post in a save-box for a while but have dumped a bunch of things. I can't believe someone doesn't have that info out there. 

As far as the reinstatement, absolutely. Think about it. None of the Korean nationals were hurt, none of them lost any money, none of them were taken to court or anything like that. And if they take him back in after a while who is going to raise a fuss? Folks like, say, Frank and Fabian have moved on. Bae is out of the way and Hal has pulled back and contentedly teaching at his school, no worse the wear for what he has been through. There are a lot more folks who want only the trappings of rank and standing than actually want to work for it, and there are some major bucks in selling those trappings. It hasn't been but a couple of months and he is already showing up on the KHF and BUDO-SEEK. If it were me in his shoes you couldn't get me to show my face on this planet ever again. Reinstatement? 
 Bet on it.  :idunno: 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Jun 24, 2004)

Hello all,

From the "KHF" site...

_Dear All Hapkidoin, 

This is just a reminder of our first USA Hapkido friendship seminar. 
The days 24 ~ 27 of June, many hapkidoin will gather to train Hapkido. 
The seminar will be held in the city of Ocala Florida. 
The address is: 
HAPKIDO KOREA INTERNATIONAL 
9353 MARICAMP RD. 
OCALA, FL, 34472, USA. 

For more information please contact: 
Fabian Duque at: 
hapkiduquemaster@earthlink.net 

www.hapkidokoreainternational.com 

All Hapkidoin, regardless of organizational Affiliation are welcome to attend.  Thank you !!

Sincerely, 

Fabian Duque_ 

Poor guys, still trying to flog the dead horse.  I wish them the best, but I would have got out already...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Kevin F. Donohue (Jun 24, 2004)

Guys,
The KHF is having huge, huge problems. The American membership, along with a few Hapkidoin outside of the KHF have tried to correct these problems but have met with stiff resistance to any progressive (and sometimes more traditional approaches than our brothers in Korea) approaches that we tried to implement.

If Hackworth was allowed to re-join the KHF (never mind being placed in a position of power) it would be enough to destroy what is left of the KHF in the US. With that being said, I can still get my rank through my instructors in Korea if I wish. I don't need to go through any single person or Kwan. If rank was important to me... and it's not.... I could jump to any other organization and jump a belt or two.... dont' want that either.

Some people want to be part of the biggest or most powerful organization... I don't care much about that. Some want their rank recognized by the Korean government...well I am not applying for a position as a Blue House Bodyguard so that does not seem to matter to me.

The only thing that matters is the truth in the technique. I will follow my teachers in Korea when studying Hapkido because I am still learning a great deal from them. They are more disgusted with what has transpired than we are. These are people who live by the codes thast they teach and teach out of their love of our art.... not money.

My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can. If it is in the KHF... great, they have many fine masters, if not find it where you will.

Have a great day,

Kevin F. Donohue

When the leader is morally weak and his discipline not strict, when his instructions and guidance are not enlightened, when there are no consistent rules, neighboring rulers will take advantage of this.
-Sun Tzu


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## glad2bhere (Jun 24, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

"....My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can. If it is in the KHF... great, they have many fine masters, if not find it where you will....." 

Absolutely. If I had the last two years to do over again I would have saved my breath (and keyboard time) trying to explain why what I do and believe are important to me. People who were truely invested in the KMA would not have needed my explanations, and people who were not invested would never be able to understand no matter HOW much I wrote. Used to be I would ask questions, or play the Devils' Advocate or raise issues with an eye towards promoting discussion. After a while I noticed that the same questions and discussions were being asked with noisome repetition. Then I noticed that the same questions were being asked despite the fact that these same questions had been addressed by more qualified people than I and only scant weeks earlier. The upshot was that I had come to a place where I was actually working harder at getting information than the people who were asking the questions! Needless to say I have backed off quite a bit. 

There are, and always will be, folks who want to connect with the KMA at the least possible inconvenience to themselves. At the best, these folks are irritating wannabees, but at the worst they are distractions and impedences for others who want to go somewhere and do something with their MA studies. My prayer is that the KHF has no further dealings with the people that injured it so badly. Maybe they will and maybe they won't; I don't know. I DO know that Lifes' too short, and I have places I need to go and things I need to do. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Disco (Jun 24, 2004)

Well, just got in from the first day of the Ocala get together. I didn't really plan on attending, from all the prior problems that were being aired, but I changed my mind because it's right in my back yard. I'm glad I did. All politics aside, it was nice to be with people that study what they want and want what they study. I give Masters Whalen, Duque, Thomas and Bae a well done and my thanks for allowing me access to their knowledge and friendship. They know their discipline and they all enjoy sharing. Also met Mr. Tomlinson from Daytona Beach, another fine hapkidoist. I'm sure that there will be other's who will be arriving tomorrow for the remainder of the training. This get together is more along the lines that I anticipate a seminar to be. Show a technique and address the variables. My poor training partner can attest to that. Not many pressure points work on me, so we did have to make adjustments. The adjustments work just fine -- "now where did I put the ben gay"? :uhyeah:   

From Mr Donohue and Mr. Sims - "My advice is to find the truth anyway that you can". Gentlemen, truer words were never spoken....... Wish you both could have made it.  :asian: I think some truths will be forthcoming, from the time spent with these fine gentlemen. At least for me anyway.  :supcool:


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## Kodanjaclay (Jun 26, 2004)

Disco,

Master Fabian and I are very good friends. We have shared the mat together on more than one occasion. Bruce's, as well as Kevin's, comments force me to ask this question. Do you, from your recent experience in Ocala, feel that Master Fabian is propagating KHF, or putting forth a positive example of Hapkido. I feel that it is the latter. I ask because, I don't want there to be a misunderstanding. Master Fabian is loyal to his Kwan, his Kwanjang and to Hapkido... not to mention he has a great deal of loyalty to his students. I don't think that he intends on supporting KHF any more than he would support Mr. Hackworth.

 For the record, Mr. Hackworth does hold legitimate Master certifications in both TKD and HKD. So the question has been asked why I call him Mr. Hackworth instead of Master Hackworth. My first teacher indicated to me that irrespective of ability, martial art is something you either get, or you don't get. When you do get it, you typically make life changing decisions, and begin to exemplify your art with your daily life. One who is focusing on this, AND has met the physical pre-requisites, is a master. I honestly feel that Master Fabian is an excellent master, while Mr. Hackworth just doesn't get it. Call it naivite on my part, but I have certain beleifs that I will not compromise.

For my part, I think that when one deals with a big facelss organization, one is liable to get these things. In a conversation I had with Master Han, Bong Soo, he said something similar. No certificate tells you what you are inside. Some would do well to train more, and focus on self improvement.

But this is just my opinion.


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## Disco (Jun 27, 2004)

Frank, I concur with your reference to Mr. H. The gathering was politics free. Master Whalen made it a point that this was Hapkido and as he liked to say - "same taxi but different driver" or something to that effect. He stipulated that there were several kwans represented and they all have their versions of doing a technique. No one way was better than the other, it was the way you were taught and if by chance you saw and tried the technique a little different and you happened to like the new way better, then we shared. That's what it was all about, sharing our time, friendships and techniques. 

As for Master Duque, you are correct. He is a fine gentleman. He knows his Hapkido and he is a bundle of energy. Next time you talk to him, ask him about doing pressure points on me (Mike Dunn). Im sure he'll have a laugh about it. As for the KHF in general, I realize that there is an internal conflict ongoing in Korea. My personal viewpoint after meeting and talking with Masters Whalen, Bae and Thomas, is that the U.S. portion of the KHF is in very good hands and things are in actuality, in the works. I'm not by nature a joiner, but in the for what it's worth department. If I were looking for an affiliation, these men have earned my trust and respect. 

Master Bae is a throw back - in a nice way - to the old school instructors. He wants to share and enjoys teaching and being with students. He is a very warm and friendly person and you could see the joy on his face when he came and instructed one on one. He reminded me of the way it used to be when I first started many moons ago and it felt good to go back in time, if only for a little while. 

For Master Thomas, at some place in time, we must have crossed paths on the road to enlightenment. Many of the techniques or should I say the approach to the techniques, we do from the same mindset. It's nice to know I'm not alone in the world with my viewpoints.  :uhyeah:  

Now for a final thought and a "Note" to self. If attending another seminar were Master Whalen be in attendance; Bring a Drum set.....


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## kwanjang (Jun 27, 2004)

Hello Hal and Fabian:
Great to see that the seminar you did was a success.  Looks like I missed a great opportunity to spend time with good people, but then you knew I had a previous thing going on.  Take care


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## greendragon (Jun 27, 2004)

Got back home a while ago from the four day Friendship Seminar at Master Fabian's dojang in Ocala.  Wow, I had a great time learning, throwing, falling, sweating, eating, tapping, grapplin, sharing, choking, kicking, laughing non stop and meeting old friends and making new ones... I met some good Hapkido guys from this board like Mike Dunn who exemplifies the Hapkido concept of never quitting and never giving in.  We all had a great time and this event was run the right way.  Everyone participated, no lookieloo static Hapkido people just plenty of fun, respect, and heartfelt determination.  It was great being thrown and taught by my old Master Hal Whalen.  I could go in more depth about Hal but that would take a few days and many keyboards.  He is a true Master of Hapkido and when I get on the mat with him he becomes a Hapkido battery charger that just energizes everything and everyone he comes in contact with.  Master Fabian ran this event like a true friend and Hapkido Master.  I am really happy I have become a friend and extended Hapkido family member of his Dojang and his students.  Master Bae came over from Korea and was an awesome and humble individual.  He is a sterling example of what is good about Hapkido in Korea.  Master Holcome Thomas is one of the most knowledgeable, astute,  and yet down to earth Hapkido men you will ever come across..   Great time throwing my guys and being thrown by some of the best Hapkido players you will ever find.. EVERYONE I MET WAS A TRUE EXAMPLE OF WHAT HAPKIDO SHOULD BE.  Even though I am not a member of the KHF that was not a point of contention...this truly was a friendship seminar and the one thing we ALL had in common at this event was a love of True Hapkido which exists on the mat and in your heart....guys you missed a good one,, my Hapkido batteries have been recharged and I'm happy to say I was part of this gathering,,,next year next time you can bet I'll be there again.... HAP KI !!!
                                Michael Tomlinson


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## Disco (Jun 29, 2004)

Mr Tomlinson, thanks for complement. Just wish the old bod could do more. I can dish it out but can't take like I used to. And that's part of the fun with Hapkido as you know. My complements to you on your student, you've done  excellent in teaching and he is a fine example of your talents. Just wondering on next years get together. Was anything mentioned as to if it would be back at Master Fabians or will there be a different location?


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## greendragon (Jun 29, 2004)

Thanks for the good word on James,, he has definately paid his dues in the Hapkido department... he has "seen" the mat many times and just keeps coming back,, guys like that are hard to find...on next years training.. I didn't hear anything set in stone as to the location so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.. take care bro and if your ever in the Daytona area let me know..
                Michael Tomlinson
               5th Dan  Sin Moo Hapkido


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## whalen (Jun 30, 2004)

First I would like to thank those that attended and participated in the event that made it the success that it was . 36 hours of training in 4 days is what separates those that want to train from those want to complain.

We have not discussed a location for next years event . But on personal note I would like to see it in different parts of the country to give those that are unable to travel a chance and to show support to those that want to "train more than complain"


  Hal
artyon:


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