# Choi Kwang Do, real art or belt mill?



## scottie (Jun 11, 2010)

Hello all, I been looking at a TKD type art to try to learn better my kicking skills. We have a Choi Kwang Do school about 45 minutes from my house. I went to visit. and did not know what to think. They charge a lot of money for a few classes a week. Is this art new. does anyone know much about it. they seem very uniform form my internet study. I would like some input please.


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## terryl965 (Jun 11, 2010)

First off please provide there website for a review, secondly want was it that turned you away from them? Did you get to try a class or two, was you able to ask question and get info. back at you.


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## scottie (Jun 11, 2010)

commerceckd.com
 they were just real short and were quick to talk about money. just kind of a turn off. I am going next week for a free class.
   They may be great. I was just wondering if anyone knew about the art before i spent that money.


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## Carol (Jun 11, 2010)

All Commerce Choi Kwang Do Instructors and Assistant Instructors are  Internationally Certified through Choi Kwang Do Martial  Art International.  This certification insures you that a consistent,  quality program is taught as designed by Grandmaster Kwang  Jo Choi.


It looks like a bit of a belt mill to me.  That's not to say that you won't learn anything, or you won't enjoy the training.  

Charging a lot of money for a few classes per week - this is a structure optimized for children, so kids can train and not get burned out and the school can profit.  Most mass-market MA schools such as this one do not divide up the training between kids and adults, so chances are you're going to get more of the watered-down stuff than material that holds up better in a combat scenario.

Personally, I'd stay away and find something at a better price point.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 11, 2010)

There are one or two of these near-ish to here.  I did look it up a while back.  IIRC their founder was allegedly a Korean Army TKD instructor who for whatever reason wanted to develop techniques that were less harmful to the body or something like that.

They also appeared to have about ten different coloured uniform combinations for every eventuality as you progressed through the ranks.  Looked like a big earner for the suppliers.  

What I've seen here wasn't great. I'm sure there are some good ones though.


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 11, 2010)

> During his military service, Kwang Jo became a chief Instructor in the 20th infantry division and came into contact with General Choi (the founder of Taekwon-do) when the military began to use that system for unarmed combat. After completing his military service, Kwang Jo traveled to Seoul to see General Choi, who taught him the art. Shortly thereafter, Kwang Jo was named a chief instructor for the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF) and taught martial arts instructors from all over Korea and overseas. At the same time, Kwang Jo served as an instructor for the national police department, and taught many military instructors and members of the armed forces. In 1967, the ITF sanctioned him as one of six instructors to demonstrate and promote Taekwon-Do throughout Southeast Asia.
> 
> Due to the lockout movements of his traditional martial arts training, however, Kwang Jo injured his body which forced him to move to North America for medical treatment in 1970.  After visits with many doctors, Kwang Jo decided to rehabilitate his body withour sergury.
> 
> ...



From here.

One assumes he should be good.


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## Cirdan (Jun 11, 2010)

18 kyu ranks, testing every month, black belt club and belt worship to the point of a load of them being on display on the walls.. lots of red flags here.

The pictures are pretty underwhelming, especially the ones from black belt gradings.

They ought to be pretty impressive if you believe some of their claims tho.. 
*"The most effective martial arts system in the world"*
*"Natural and easy-to-learn"*


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## ArmorOfGod (Jun 11, 2010)

One of their "assistant instructors" is a yellow belt.  If I walk in to a school and pay them $150 per month, I better not be taught by a beginner.

Also, a buddy of mine's stepbrother is a black belt at one of the CKD schools in Georgia.  He was under ten years old, although I don't know which CKD school it was (4 years ago).

AoG


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## Wey (Jun 11, 2010)

If you're in Georgia, you're sure to see Choi Kwang Do schools all over. I have never visited them personally, but I've heard that they are less than superb. Where do you reside, scottie?


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## ATC (Jun 12, 2010)

Well I won't talk bad about any art, school, or instructor so I can only say that after going over their website, I did not see any kicking that looks like it would be what you are looking for. Their art may be a good one but form what you said you are looking for and what I saw, I am not sure if you will find it there. You may and they may kick great, but it is not shown on their website.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 12, 2010)

I distinctly remember one CKD student raving about his art because it taught you to block fist strikes with your feet. And he said it was very valuable because if you broke your arm in a fight, wouldn't it be useful to be able to block with your feet?

Yeah... sure....


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## FieldDiscipline (Jun 12, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I distinctly remember one CKD student raving about his art because it taught you to block fist strikes with your feet. And he said it was very valuable because if you broke your arm in a fight, wouldn't it be useful to be able to block with your feet?
> 
> Yeah... sure....



:lol2:


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## scottie (Jun 12, 2010)

Wey said:


> If you're in Georgia, you're sure to see Choi Kwang Do schools all over. I have never visited them personally, but I've heard that they are less than superb. Where do you reside, scottie?


 
I live in Elberton, GA. It is an hour North East of Athens (UGA) and a little over hour South West of Clemson (Anderson SC) it is a small town I have a school here and I drive to Anderson SC two day week. I love karate i just want to kick better. They look very well organized just a little watered down, and money focused. living small town I'd have to take 3 new students to pay for my classes and another to pay for gas. I just wondered if anyone went or used to go to one of their schools? thanks!


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## PatMunk (Jun 12, 2010)

Scottie avoid them ..... You will not learn any great kicking techniques from them ....

You already probably kick better than most of them anyways....

Heck I know many who are only yellow belts who can kick better ...


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## Omar B (Jun 12, 2010)

I actually did CKD as a kid when I was still living in Jamaica.  My Saturdays were rough then, going to Seido in the morning then CKD in the evening, just changing gi jackets in between.

So what I know about the style.  Well I really cannot say how well my experience with the art would reflect considering it was in another country in a much smaller martial art community.  We took part in tournaments, we sparred, tests were not as frequent as they seem to be at schools up here.  But as I said it's a smaller MA community in Jamaica and our instructor (Master Brown) was with TKD for years before changing over.  Hell, his school's not listed on the official CKD website.

The style itself is very circular so it was totally unlike the karate I was doing and the adjustment was tricky.  Power delivery was good because of the nature of the movements but speed was something you had to work up to.  From a technical standpoint you could deliver a lot of power with all the strikes and blocks.  Oddly enough the way things work mechanically in the art actually helps flexibility a lot, and kicks maintain power even when they go pretty high.


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## scottie (Jun 12, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I actually did CKD as a kid when I was still living in Jamaica. My Saturdays were rough then, going to Seido in the morning then CKD in the evening, just changing gi jackets in between.
> 
> So what I know about the style. Well I really cannot say how well my experience with the art would reflect considering it was in another country in a much smaller martial art community. We took part in tournaments, we sparred, tests were not as frequent as they seem to be at schools up here. But as I said it's a smaller MA community in Jamaica and our instructor (Master Brown) was with TKD for years before changing over. Hell, his school's not listed on the official CKD website.
> 
> The style itself is very circular so it was totally unlike the karate I was doing and the adjustment was tricky. Power delivery was good because of the nature of the movements but speed was something you had to work up to. From a technical standpoint you could deliver a lot of power with all the strikes and blocks. Oddly enough the way things work mechanically in the art actually helps flexibility a lot, and kicks maintain power even when they go pretty high.


 
wow!  thanks man


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 9, 2010)

Sorry to drag this up again, but I happened upon something that was of interest.  

http://www.ksdi.net/choikwangdoresignation.html



> Master Roger Koo's resignation as Vice-President of Choi Kwang Do Martial Art International and many others.
> What you are about to read on this page may have begun in 1991 when I was a vice-president of Choi Kwang Do Martial Art International BUT on reading the entire page thoroughly, you will discover that CKD has not changed much over the years and continue to scam their Chief Instructors even to this day!
> 
> For Master Roger Koo's martial arts history and achievements, please browse through Master Roger Koo's martial arts history and achievements
> ...


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## clfsean (Aug 9, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I actually did CKD as a kid when I was still living in Jamaica.  My Saturdays were rough then, going to Seido in the morning then CKD in the evening, just changing gi jackets in between.
> 
> So what I know about the style.  Well I really cannot say how well my experience with the art would reflect considering it was in another country in a much smaller martial art community.  We took part in tournaments, we sparred, tests were not as frequent as they seem to be at schools up here.  But as I said it's a smaller MA community in Jamaica and our instructor (Master Brown) was with TKD for years before changing over.  Hell, his school's not listed on the official CKD website.
> 
> The style itself is very circular so it was totally unlike the karate I was doing and the adjustment was tricky.  Power delivery was good because of the nature of the movements but speed was something you had to work up to.  From a technical standpoint you could deliver a lot of power with all the strikes and blocks.  Oddly enough the way things work mechanically in the art actually helps flexibility a lot, and kicks maintain power even when they go pretty high.



Your school in Jamaica must've been the exception because of what I've seen of them, I gotta say that's not the norm when it comes to visible & demonstrable power generated & technique.


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## Omar B (Aug 9, 2010)

I've not set foot in a CKD school here in the US so I have no idea how it works.  What I can tell you is that what I learned was brutal and effective.  I'm usually quite surprise hearing all these stories about the schools up here, that's pretty sad because I would have loved to return to the style someday and finish my journey.


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 9, 2010)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Sorry to drag this up again, but I happened upon something that was of interest.
> 
> http://www.ksdi.net/choikwangdoresignation.html



I read that. Well, most of it until it got fairly repetitive.
This account has 'sucker' written all over it. He was continuously taken advantage of and milked for money, yet he knew it and allowed it to happen for years. This is like those people who go along in the Nigerian scams and keep paying in the hope of ever seeing the 20 million dollars they were promised.


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## dancingalone (Aug 9, 2010)

Well, I know someone who was into Choi Kwang Do before he moved away from CKD.  His technique was quite good actually.  However, they had like 16 belt ranks before black belt, and yes he paid a testing fee for each and every one of them on top of the expensive tuition.


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## frank raud (Aug 10, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I distinctly remember one CKD student raving about his art because it taught you to block fist strikes with your feet. And he said it was very valuable because if you broke your arm in a fight, wouldn't it be useful to be able to block with your feet?
> 
> Yeah... sure....


  But then again, if you broke your leg by blocking a fist strike, could you stand on your hands and continue to defend yourself? Didn't think so.


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## Fastboat (Dec 31, 2015)

I know this is an old thread but just joined the site.  I started CKD a little over a year ago. It was with my son, whom has been learning TKD since he was 10. Due to my work he had had to start over 3 times,  but has learned 3 styles with the highest belt at red in TKD.
I did this to be with him because he is 16 and we needed a better bond. Let say this too, I was 61 when I started with the beginnings of arthritis in my left shoulder, and a lack of stamina from lack of exercise.
Today, one year and a few months, we are green juniors and testing at the end of January for senior. Is it a belt mill? No, I don't think so, our instructor won't test if we don't earn it. Also the dojang looks at more than just money in that the kids grades have to be good, not C's. Attitude attendance all these things. 
I stand today, 62, more flexible, stronger than I have been in years, and more confident I can defend myself should the need arise.
All arts have their points, this one just works for us, and in that I am happy.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2015)

You can find belt mills in pretty much ANY organization. They're in the minority, I think, but they get talked about the most.


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## Monaro (Apr 4, 2016)

I am now a senior citizen but after many years as a military instructor, I know what is real and what is not. In addition I trained in a number of martial art styles. Choi Kwang Do is a style I know well and believe it has the potential to be a superior system to most.  However, you must first decide what you want to achieve. If your really want to toughen up and be able to really defend yourself, forget these many play-schools and go to a boxing gym. A real boxing gym where you will have to get in the ring and learn what works in the real world. Having said that, I believe CKD to have many good points as a training system when taught as it was designed. Unfortunately, martial arts instructors want to make money from their training efforts. This is really unlikely as once a skill is taught it becomes the property of the student, not the teacher. In order to make money, many instructors set up grading tests to advance students to the next belt level. Then they charge a fee. Then you need a new belt. Then perhaps a new uniform of different colour. On it goes. If a student is not good enough but has paid a grading fee, he feels cheated if he doesn't pass so, the instructor makes a business decision and passes the inferior student. This gives the student a false belief in his ability. There are a lot of black belt holders who would lose a fight in any bar in town. They just lack real fighting experience. I don't advocate going looking for fights, in bars or anywhere else. However, we must sell a real product and not be guilty of false advertising.  The traditional colour of a gee or martial art suit is WHITE.  This stands for purity of spirit, honesty and integrity. Now I see CKD students and instructors dressed in white, red, black (like ISIL fighters) and even the founder Mr. Kwang Jo Choi dressed in Gold Satin. He looked like the Grand Wizard.  Ridiculous. Lock out techniques are false and look good on a military parade ground but have no relevance to correct human movement and only result in self injury.  So, CKD having pioneered a breakaway from this style is to be applauded. However, few of the instructors teaching today have any background in physical education. Nor do they have any combat experience. What do they know? Only what they have been told. A lot of self promotion by the organisation and a lot of nonsense. Training must reflect the truth. If you play squash to improve your tennis game, it won't work. So, if you want to learn to defend yourself, you must learn to fight and so, go learn in a recognised boxing gym. Then take up martial arts to add to your skills inventory. However you will already have some idea of what your are up against. Nothing worth having ever comes easy.  You work hard for your money. Don't give it to snake oil salesmen who might look pretty but in fact have nothing worthwhile to sell you. Live a good life. Be a good person. Don't look for trouble and you will probably never have to defend yourself. Use common sense to avoid bad people and bad situations.


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## Sparkles1 (Aug 28, 2016)

Monaro said:


> I am now a senior citizen but after many years as a military instructor, I know what is real and what is not. In addition I trained in a number of martial art styles. Choi Kwang Do is a style I know well and believe it has the potential to be a superior system to most.  However, you must first decide what you want to achieve. If your really want to toughen up and be able to really defend yourself, forget these many play-schools and go to a boxing gym. A real boxing gym where you will have to get in the ring and learn what works in the real world. Having said that, I believe CKD to have many good points as a training system when taught as it was designed. Unfortunately, martial arts instructors want to make money from their training efforts. This is really unlikely as once a skill is taught it becomes the property of the student, not the teacher. In order to make money, many instructors set up grading tests to advance students to the next belt level. Then they charge a fee. Then you need a new belt. Then perhaps a new uniform of different colour. On it goes. If a student is not good enough but has paid a grading fee, he feels cheated if he doesn't pass so, the instructor makes a business decision and passes the inferior student. This gives the student a false belief in his ability. There are a lot of black belt holders who would lose a fight in any bar in town. They just lack real fighting experience. I don't advocate going looking for fights, in bars or anywhere else. However, we must sell a real product and not be guilty of false advertising.  The traditional colour of a gee or martial art suit is WHITE.  This stands for purity of spirit, honesty and integrity. Now I see CKD students and instructors dressed in white, red, black (like ISIL fighters) and even the founder Mr. Kwang Jo Choi dressed in Gold Satin. He looked like the Grand Wizard.  Ridiculous. Lock out techniques are false and look good on a military parade ground but have no relevance to correct human movement and only result in self injury.  So, CKD having pioneered a breakaway from this style is to be applauded. However, few of the instructors teaching today have any background in physical education. Nor do they have any combat experience. What do they know? Only what they have been told. A lot of self promotion by the organisation and a lot of nonsense. Training must reflect the truth. If you play squash to improve your tennis game, it won't work. So, if you want to learn to defend yourself, you must learn to fight and so, go learn in a recognised boxing gym. Then take up martial arts to add to your skills inventory. However you will already have some idea of what your are up against. Nothing worth having ever comes easy.  You work hard for your money. Don't give it to snake oil salesmen who might look pretty but in fact have nothing worthwhile to sell you. Live a good life. Be a good person. Don't look for trouble and you will probably never have to defend yourself. Use common sense to avoid bad people and bad situations.


I totally agree mate about going to a boxing club, then working a GOOD martial art into your regime, like BJJ/Judo to cover grappling, but to also source a good street instructor who can give you realistic street scenario role play like 'Line ups' 'Dissuasion' techniques etc and before I forget a weapon defence instructor. On this subject you realistically cannot defend against a determined 'stabber' but knife recognition drills can help, also keep very fit so you can sprint away if needs be. I used to be a CKD instructor in the UK in the mid 90's. I left as I was becoming bored after also joining the British Combat Association in 94. The in depth knowledge the 2 main instructors had/have was/is fantastic, still with them today.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2016)

Sparkles1 said:


> The in depth knowledge the 2 main instructors had/have was/is fantastic, .



Now that is the truth!


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