# How effective is the art we study?



## vin2k0 (Apr 2, 2003)

I am interested in you thoughts upon how effective the technquies we use are? I know that when performed on the pads all tachniques feel strong powerful and effective but how do they cope out there in the real world when the adrenaline in running and your heart is pounding? I only ask because luckily i have never had to apply it in a real life situation, but am curious whether it is as effective as i expect it to be?

Thanks...


----------



## yilisifu (Apr 3, 2003)

Extremely effective.  Pads absorb shock...but when the technique connects with a live target, it is a different story.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vin2k0 _
> * I know that when performed on the pads all tachniques feel strong powerful and effective
> *



I have noticed just the opposite.
When I hit pads my punches feel kind of weak but that feeling changes when I hit during kumite.


----------



## yilisifu (Apr 3, 2003)

Yes...you hit the pads and it doesn't FEEL like much and you think, "I've really got to work on this..."  Then you hit a live target and it crumples.....


----------



## vin2k0 (Apr 3, 2003)

ok thanks... was just curious, my techniques actually feel very strong on the pad and would imagine them to hurt but i have never known. We dont do full contact kumite either so i cannot use that as any judgement.


----------



## Matt Stone (Apr 3, 2003)

If you haven't hit a person "for real," then your experience is sorely lacking...  Grab a buddy, apologize ahead of time, then thump him.  See what happens.

When RyuShiKan first "honored" me with a taste of what his karate was like, all I really remember was thinking that it sure didn't look like it'd hurt that bad...

Years back when I was in a class with Yilisifu, I asked him to knock me out.  He looked at me rather puzzled, and asked why I would want to do such a thing.  I told him "because I have never been knocked out before," and I figured the experience would be good so I could better communicate to others the results of certain techniques.  He humored me, had a few folks stand behind me to catch me, and then very lightly tapped me on some points along my neck...  Everything went white instantly, and when things returned to focus I immediately thought to myself that Sifu hadn't hit me all that hard...

I have been told (rather erroneously, I think) that I have an okay punch.  But whenever I hit a heavy bag, or a kicking shield, I feel like a complete wuss.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


----------



## Kingston (Apr 3, 2003)

we dont have bags where i train......we only hit each other 

:hammer: :boxing: :roflmao:


----------



## Mike Clarke (Apr 4, 2003)

I learnt to hit those foam pads with the late Kimura Shigeru sensei back in the mid 1970's. No doubt about it, you can develop a lot of power, though as I recall though we were trying to develop 'shock' not power.
The idea being to drop a person on the spot, not knock them flying across the room.

Since begining my training in Goju-ryu [1984], I've learnt to hit 'harder' with less technique but a better understanding of bodyweight. Of course in isolation Bodyweight is not the answer. One always needs the right distance and focus and timing and breath etc........

I understand the combination of these to be the 'feeling' I'm after in my karate. So, it's not the techniques that are effective or not, but me?

Mike.


----------



## SRyuFighter (Apr 7, 2003)

Karate is extremely effective. I don't feel like a wuss when I hit a bag, but I guess that is because I know it is a bag...if that makes sense. But there are major differences between real life and a bag as we all know.


----------



## yilisifu (Apr 8, 2003)

In martial arts, we're more interested in developing SHOCK as opposed to a brute force.  Imagine what would happen if you held a high-caliber handgun close to the bag (or even pressed the muzzle against the bag) and fired it.

   The bag would "jump" or "scissor" but it would not be "pushed" away.  This is because a huge amount of shock has been focused on a very small point and has penetrated clear through it.

   Aim to do the same thing with your punch......


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 23, 2003)

I have a different spin on this question. I would like to ask: "How effective is the approach to fighting done in many karate dojos where the emphasis is on a single counterstrike to the solar plexus?" 

It is not uncommon to find self defense techniques where in response to an attack, the defender steps backward, blocks the attack, and responds with a single strike.

My questions are: "What people think that this is an effective fighting strategy against a large attacker, and for those that do, why is it that you feel that way?" 

Few if any non-karate arts approach fighting this way, and I am really interested in what arguments can be made to support the effectiveness of these approaches to fighting big attackers.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 23, 2003)

Shuri-te:

My personal experience is that you can indeed knock someone down, knock the wind out of them, or score a TKO with a single punch to the solar plexus.  I've done it and it's been done to me.

However, Karate has not fared will in the last 10 years in MMA competition.  You should check out some of the BJJ or MMA threads and look at some of the books written by Renzo Gracie.  

You are unlikely to win in a majority of situations against trained or experienced fighters if you rely on a single strike to a single target and you are unable to attack otherwise and to defend against a variety of strikes, kicks, clinches, takedowns, and grappling.  A broader repertoire of strikes and cross training with other styles can only increase your combat effectiveness.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 23, 2003)

Kenpoka,

I think we are in agreement that the one strike approach to the solar plexus may not be optimal. However, you did indicate you know of situations where it his been used successfully. You have first hand experience of being knocked down, or seen KOs with this. 

I have two questions.  

First, can you provide some more info on the KOs. I would like to know your estimate, if you can recall, of the height and weight of each of the people who have done this. 

Please give me both persons height and weight and let me know which one had the KO.

Second, approximately how many strikes have you seen connect by smaller fighters hitting large fighters that are aimed to the big guy's solar plexus. In how many cases where contact was made, have you seen a person say 30 or more lbs lighter, actually KO, or knock down the larger person with this strike to the solar plexus. I have seen hundreds and hundreds of these strikes that have had no effect whatsoever. The few that I have seen wind a guy, would, in my opinion, have no effect on the outcome of the fight. Minor winding has little effect on a person's ability to continue to fight. They are fully conscious, and can take a step back, and be back to normal in seconds. 

It has been my universal experience, that for average fighters (not masters with 20+ years training), there has never been any effect for lots of strikes that have connected to the abdomen, when the person striking is giving up 30 or more lbs to his larger partner.

One last point. It is my belief that the solar plexus is harder to hit in a street fight than in traditional karate kumite. In a fight, it is my experience that hooking, looping strikes are pretty common with lots of body twisting. That is the way that people naturally strike, whereas in some kumite, people charge in with their abdomens straight and with little, if any twisting from side-to-side as they punch. 

I would argue that the solar plexus on a traditional karate attacker is much easier to hit than an a twisting street fighter. But even so, it still is not easy to hit. If you want to hit something once to end the fight, I just can't see why people believe that this is the target of choice. 

Thanks.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 23, 2003)

My answer is different if the question is about adult streetfighting, kid fighting, or tournament Karate.

1)  tournament Karate.  I have seen people knocked down or get the wind knocked out of them by a straight reverse punch to the solar plexus or to the ribs.  Have seen the action stopped with the punchee doubled up and needing a couple minutes to (partially) recover.  This usually happens when the attacker leads with a backfist or roundhouse kick and leaves their guard down.  I've seen it, done it, had it done to me.  Haven't seen it recently though.

2)  kid fights.  I started Kenpo when I was 12...1973...  Saw a fight where someone tried to grab a Shotokan guy for a very badly applied wrestling clinch.  I punched a guy in my 7th grade science class who took a swing at me.  Knocked the wind out of him.  He bent over and I went in for the finish until my science teacher lifted my feet off the ground by the scruff of my neck...

3)  Never seen it in an adult streetfight.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 23, 2003)

Kenpoka,

Let me tell you where I am getting at. In an attack, I think the probability is high that the attacker will be bigger, which is why I ask about relative sizes when someone tells me about a KO with a strike to the solar plexus. It's my guess that it is unlikely that person getting KOd is 30 or more lbs heavier than the striker.   

Bigger people tend to attack smaller people, not the other way around. This is not to say there aren't lots of whacko small people out there that love to mix it up with people there own size or even larger. It is just that if you look at the odds of being attacked by a weaponless, lone attacker, it is highly likely that he is bigger. 20 lbs, or 30lbs might be the minimum. 

Against someone actually striking you on the street, someone who outweighs you by 30 or so lbs, it is my strong belief that many traditional karate applications (step back, block, strike to the abdomen,) are just really bad fighting for at least four reasons. 

1. By stepping back, you are bringing yourself out of range, making effective counterstrikes from the stance difficult. Best to go off to the side and stay in close.  

2. By not stepping off the line, you are not avoiding the attack, and you must block with great power to move the strike off its trajectory. (Again, best to go off to the side)

3. By choosing a single counterstrike, you are putting all your eggs in one basket. You are not allowing for all sorts of things going wrong and in a fight, you should expect Murphy's law. (It gets blocked, it doesn't hit hard enough, it glances off a twisting body, etc.) 

4. By selecting the solar plexus, you are picking a target where it is hard to hit (a rotating body goes with a hooking strike) and if you miss, you hit all sorts of targets that have no value (sternum, upper ribs, pectorals, etc.) 

I recognize that sometimes the solar plexus is a great target. If someone is standing still and grabbing you, it might be easy to hit. (Funakoshi wowed the Japanese establishment when in front of a large crowd he instantaneously dropped a big young Judoka who grabbed his lapels for a throw.) 

And I recognize the value of hitting someone in the upper abdominals in certain situations. If he is stationary, and not too much bigger, and not in great shape (big belly), you can really knock the wind out of him. This can be a great exit strategy because it is awfully hard to chase someone when you are sucking wind. 

But against a right hook to the head from a big attacker, (probably the most common kind of attack) the kinds of defensive applications practiced in many karate schools are, IMO, prescriptions for getting badly hurt.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 23, 2003)

Shuri-te:  I couldn't agree with you more.  One-punch, one-kill fighting philosophy is utopian.  I was just trying to give a positive example or two of where it could work.  In general, very traditional Karate movements can be effective against untrained or at least unsuspecting opponents.  In general, traditional Karate movements are not effective against Karateka with more diverse training, or against kickboxers and Mixed Martial Artists with more sparring time than the Karateka.  This topic has been done to death on dozens of other forums and has been demonstrated in MMA competition.  I am really surprised that anyone would even consider  the traditional reverse punch as a solo-movement path to victory in self-defense anymore.


----------



## kkbb (Jun 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *Kenpoka,
> 
> Let me tell you where I am getting at. In an attack, I think the probability is high that the attacker will be bigger, which is why I ask about relative sizes when someone tells me about a KO with a strike to the solar plexus. It's my guess that it is unlikely that person getting KOd is 30 or more lbs heavier than the striker.
> ...



Agreed...
A single punch (or kick) self defence... without additional options... leaves one open for counter attack.  You hope that it works and you strike the target right on....

I think the question is really...  what does you or your system view as a self defence? 1 punch, 1 block, 1 kick?  No other options?  Is anything more than this over kill? 

Analogy: If I train allways kicking low... then where are my kicks likely to go? What if I had to kick hi?  Not going to likely happen with any effectiveness.

I personally would like to know that I can continue to defend myself, to take advantage of multiple targets, should the degree of self-defense have to be cranked up a knotch or two.

Stopping at 1 punch, 1 block, 1 kick... does not, in my view, prepare you to do more.  If this is the case ..you had better be very precise!


----------



## Kirves (Jun 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Shuri-te:  I couldn't agree with you more.  One-punch, one-kill fighting philosophy is utopian.*



I remember reading in a book that the whole idea of "one-punch, one-kill" meaning to kill with a single blow, was a misinterpretation. Originally it was meant as "treat any punch as lethal", so one shouldn't underestimate any opponent. But sometime during the first half of last century the translation got wrong and the misinterpretation was the one spread and published everywhere. Sadly, I don't remember where I read it, but it was from the mouth of some old time master, I have a feeling it was either Funakoshi or Nagamine.

Personally, I feel a lot about the effectiveness of a karate style is based on how you train it. The reason I chose a Kyokushin school over other options here was because they train similar to the Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate, JKD and other schools, i.e. lots of contact sparring, lots of work on bag, mits, shields, lots of focus on physical fitness and so on. Focus being on "aliveness" in training, as Matt Thornton calls it. No matter how good karate technician you are, if you never get hit for real in practice, never hit for real in practice, aren't in great shape and so on, you can't compare against those who do/are. 

:asian:


----------



## MJS (Jun 24, 2003)

As far as hitting the pads, yes, that is good, but you need to get in some actual sparring, where you are defending against strikes, and trying to hit a moving target.  As for the tech.  Most of the arts today, are probably not taught in the traditional way.  As it was passed from one teacher to another, things were changed, lost, and modified for todays world.  Even Ed Parker, changed Kenpo to make it more street oriented.  

How effective is it, I believe was the original question.  Well, I guess that depends on the person.  I believe that there is something to gain from every art.  If you can take something and make it work for you...GREAT!!  After all, isn't that what Bruce did?  Keep in mind, not everybody is an MMA or NHB fighter.  Everybody trains for different reasons.  Some for weight loss, confidence, SD, or just something fun to do.  If you are into it for SD, then you need to make sure that your material fits the street.  Example---forget about the fancy high TKD kicks, and keep your kicks below the belt--top of foot, shin, knee, groin.  Make sure that you train realisticly.  If you are doing choke defenses, don't give your partner a shoulder massage, put your hands around his neck and squeeze to give him a real feeling.  Don't kill him, but make him feel the attack.  A guy on the street isn't going to give a punch 2in. away from your face.  He's going to try to knock your head off.  Put on a glove, and throw a punch at your partner.

You will only get out of the arts, what you put into them!

Mike


----------



## twinkletoes (Jul 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirves _
> *Personally, I feel a lot about the effectiveness of a karate style is based on how you train it. The reason I chose a Kyokushin school over other options here was because they train similar to the Muay Thai, Kickboxing, Savate, JKD and other schools, i.e. lots of contact sparring, lots of work on bag, mits, shields, lots of focus on physical fitness and so on. Focus being on "aliveness" in training, as Matt Thornton calls it. No matter how good karate technician you are, if you never get hit for real in practice, never hit for real in practice, aren't in great shape and so on, you can't compare against those who do/are.
> 
> :asian: *



Kirves beat me to it.  The question is not _what_  you train, but _how_  you train it.  If you train using the 3 I's of the SBG (introduce, isolate, integrate) and spend time doing alive drilling, followed by putting on as little gear as you can handle and throwing down with as few rules as you can stomach, then you're doing the best training you can do!  It doesn't matter if you are karate or TKD or JKD or BJJ or whatever.  You just need to train with true alive methods.  (alive drills means 3 things:  1) unchoreographed foorwork/distancing 2) unchoreographed timing 3) your partner attacks and resists realistically--no cooperation!!!).

~TT


----------



## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 16, 2003)

I feel my training is extremely important and useful.  I also agree with twinkletoes and Kirves...I believe that it is what you put into your workout that you will get out of it.  See, if you give no effort and don't try, you won't get anything from it...but if you try and put your full attention and concentration into the workout, you'll definately get better results.
:asian:


----------



## twinkletoes (Jul 16, 2003)

IssinryuKarateGirl,

I don't mean to sound like I'm disagreeing, because I'm not, but I don't think that's quite what we said.  

You are completely correct that what you put in, you get out.  No argument.

What we said, though, was that alive training including sparring is integral to one's ability to "use this stuff for real."  Alive training means that skills are introduced, whether individual or (eek) in patterns, and then drilling which is unchoreographed, with realistic attacks and improvised footwork and timing, is done to build the skills in isolation.  Following that, the skills are integrated into sparring so that they become a part of a person's usable skillset.  

Training with aliveness (in the Thorntonian sense) is the key to making the skills usable.  The isolated [alive] drill portion is the fundamental element in transferring moves from dead, cooperative, or solo training to usable sparring tactics.  

For reading on this topic, anyone interested should check out www.straightblastgym.com.  In the "Gorilla Press" section, there are tons of articles about the alive training approach, and how it makes training functional.

Best,

~TT


----------



## MJS (Jul 17, 2003)

I can only echo what TT has said!!!  After seeing and having the chance to experience this, I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MJS


----------



## gojukylie (Aug 10, 2003)

Just a thought. How effective is a gun. How effective is a baseball bat. How effective is a side kick? How effective is it when the situation is avoided. That is when our styles really become effective.:asian: 
So train the mind as well as the body.


----------



## MJS (Aug 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> *Just a thought. How effective is a gun. How effective is a baseball bat. How effective is a side kick? How effective is it when the situation is avoided. That is when our styles really become effective.:asian:
> So train the mind as well as the body. *



A gun, like any weapon, and how effective its going to be depends on the person using it.  I like talking about the gun, especially when people think that it is the "Ultimate SD Weapon" because it really isnt.  A weapon, just like your empty hand training is going to be only as good as you make it!  What I mean by this is, do you train, faithfully everyday, or do you only train 1 time a week?  As for the gun, I think people rely on it too much because they dont train under stressfull conditions.  Alot of times, it makes me laugh when people say, "Well, if I'm attacked, I'll just shoot them!"  Yeah, ok.  The first thing I usually say is, "Well, do you have your gun with you now?"  They usually say no, and my reply is, well what good is it gonna do you if you dont have it?  Also, not every situation is going to require you pulling the gun.

As for the other things you mention, a bat or especially a stick, can be deadly in the hands of a trained person.  Yeah, anybody can swing a stick, but you cant compare the average person with someone studying the Filipino arts!

Mike


----------



## gojukylie (Aug 10, 2003)

Just in reply to your post Mat.

I agree with what you are saying. In my post all I was getting at was that the ultimate weapon or technique is not to use anything and avoid the situation.


----------



## MJS (Aug 10, 2003)

Thats true!  Being able to avoid something is definately better than fighting! 

Mike


----------



## goju.glenn (Aug 10, 2003)

From a personal perspective, I am a complete wuss when hitting a bag. I feel like there is nothing in the punches or kicks I deliver.

I try to practice what my Sensei and Sempai teach - use your hips etc but I have hips which lock in the wrong places when I need them ........ and are all free and wobbly when they should be stiff.  

My sister has a similar problem which we call the "[insert family name here] gene!!  Obviously, she is not as bad as I given she is a Shodan - Ho.

EDIT: Due to a certain Shodan - Ho reading this post, they questioned whether they punch like a wuss. Let me clarify this point ......

*I* punch like a wuss, but we both a little hip problem. Sorry for the misunderstanding Sempai.   :asian:


----------



## gojukylie (Aug 11, 2003)

I think it all comes down to how the individuals hold their composure when their skills and techniques are needed. Their ability to remain calm and think rationally. If we cannot do this than the effectiveness of the art we study is useless. Our minds control our body.


----------



## James Kovacich (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> *I think it all comes down to how the individuals hold their composure when their skills and techniques are needed. Their ability to remain calm and think rationally. If we cannot do this than the effectiveness of the art we study is useless. Our minds control our body. *



Holding your composure is just one piece of the puzzle. Composure won't do a thing for you when your getting slammed head first.

But I would rather be composed and try to not land on my head though.


----------



## gojukylie (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Holding your composure is just one piece of the puzzle. Composure won't do a thing for you when your getting slammed head first.
> 
> But I would rather be composed and try to not land on my head though. *



I understand your point, but you have to hold yourself together first, then you can use your techniques. If you lose it, your MA is useless.


----------



## James Kovacich (Aug 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by gojukylie _
> *I understand your point, but you have to hold yourself together first, then you can use your techniques. If you lose it, your MA is useless. *



No doubt!


----------

