# Perception of Form Difficulty



## JWLuiza (Dec 11, 2006)

One of the things I've noticed by visiting other schools is variance in "where" a form is in the curriculum.  Some schools have Kanku Dai at black belt level and others at gup level.  It seems to me, that the perception of the worth of a kata is almost entirely dependent on "when" a student learns the kata.  Before there was rank, there were only kata and you'd learn at most a handful in whatever order your instructor wanted...  

Thoughts?


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 17, 2006)

Hi John,
The interesting thing about Kata and The Old Days is that, in the old days (1890s and before), each instructor had between one and three Kata. It wasnt till more recent times where training became more open and people started to share what they knew and systems were established for mass instruction

With a ranking system it became necessary to have something else to advance to. In the old days practitioners took three years to learn ONE Kata. Today people want to learn a new Kata every three months, and actually believe that they know the Kata that they have already learned well enough to be able to teach others.

The problem is that we live in a fast food society, where everyone wants quick and easy. Karate was not intended to be trained this way

As for the order of Kata in a given system, each grandmaster devises the curriculum of his/her system. When I started learning Isshinryu Karate in 1972 Sanchin was the first Kata taught at white belt level. This is a breathing-Tension Kata, and requires a deeper understanding of technique to learn and perform correctly. Several years later Sanchin was moved to brown belt level. 

Many schools have done away with Gicho-Hyung/Tekiyoko Kata, as they feel that they are too basic, and a waste of time. I think that they serve a good purpose and should be kept in our curriculum. 

What systems and Kata are you referring to in your posting?


Yours in Tang Soo Do,



Master Jay S. Penfil



TANG SOO!!!


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## Makalakumu (Dec 18, 2006)

Master Penfil

I've often felt that the gicho hyungs are too basic and simplistic.  Especially when they are followed up by Pyung Ahn Cho Dan.  I've read why Funakoshi Sensei created them, but I often wonder why he chose to do this after his own teacher had already created a set of basic forms...the pinans.

My guess is that the gichos are much more then they seem.  What do you think?

upnorthkyosa


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 21, 2006)

Hi John,
What I think is that when this series of hyung/kata were intended to be, at that time, nothing more then a vehicle for students to use to learn how to connect the dots a prelude to hyung/kata of a more serious nature.

I am, however of the belief that; nothing is nothing! If you dont assign a serious value to an exercise, you are wasting your time, and the time of your students in practicing it. I have several principles that I introduce when teaching this series of hyung/kata that are essentials in establishing great form and execution of technique. Remember, proper mind-set is essential in training. Being able to visualize what is taking place in the exchange between you and the opponent(s) in the hyung/kata is crucial to your being able to make the connection from basics, to hyung/kata, to sparring and to the street.

Understanding distance and timing begins with basics, and gets deeper in hyung/kata. Stance Choice, transitioning movements, power-line, etc. all come together in hyung/kata training; we start working on these concepts and principles in Gicho-Hyung.

If we are teaching our students to just do the basic movements and move on, we are wasting valuable time


Yours in Tang Soo Do,

Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


*Happy Holidays to all!!!!*


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## Chizikunbo (Dec 25, 2006)

Well Said SBN,
I look at it the same way...When I first stepped into a ryukyu kempo dojo the first form I learned was the Ryukyu Naihanchi Shodan no Kata...in Tang Soo Do we have this as a chodan form, but the Ryukyu Kempo students learn this form first, the stepping is easy to pick up, but does not provide knowledge to transition into the enbusen of say the Pinan Shodan, where you must pivot, shift weight, use several different stances etc. As such some students have a hard time moving into the "moving forms" i.e. Pinan, Seisan, Passai, Kusanku, Nieseishi...In Tang Soo Do I belive that the Kicho hyung serve a great purpose, they are very basic in design but provide a solid "FOUNDATION" [Kicho ;-)] For further learning. 
This is the Um/Yang concept  everything has a higher and lower level, the above is the lower level of understanding in Kicho. In my experience everything conforms to Um yang as a natural law so if we examine the higher side of the kicho, bunsok is there, we just need to look ;-) I think it was Funakoshi Gichin that said "The Taikyoku (kicho) are both the most basic and the most advanced forms in Karate Do". 
As we try to understand our art we must realise the we will never attain actualization of mastery in any aspect, there is always more to learn, even from the very first movements of Kicho Hyung Il Bu, they just become more apparent as we train and train...
Take Care,
--Josh


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 25, 2006)

Hi Josh,
Thank you for your input here. I know that we are on the same page regarding training and the understanding of principles and philosophy of movement.

I disagree however with; they just become more apparent as we train and train...

I have met and trained with far too many practitioners who have 20, 30, 40+ years of training who have never gotten past the rudimentary Bunkai, simply because they were never exposed to a higher level of thinking and applying. What we do is not rocket science, but until one is exposed to the process, they will never know to look deeper. I have had a wide range of reactions, and follow-up (or lack there of) from the different senior instructors that I have worked with over the years. Most are in a mental fog that leads them to run from what they have been exposed to. Some have welcomed the vision of what is available with open arms, and an eagerness to expand on what they have already learned in order to make a better curriculum for their students.

It is always best to meet each day with an open mind, and a love of learning. I try to learn something new every time I am on the floor training, from every person that I come into contact with


I would like to take this time to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, and a Happy and Health New Years!!!​ 
Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## Chizikunbo (Dec 25, 2006)

Actually I agree 100% Master Penfil,
I guess this is just another example of my poor wording in posts sometimes...I was basically assuming that the reader understood my intent ;-) The way I was taught Bunkai was basically to look at the entire form and then "go fishing" I wont go into detail here because I think you understand what I am saying...If you teach individual bunkai (oyo, henka etc.) you will have those techniques, but if you teach how to find them you have infinate supply ;-)So by train and train I guess what I was trying to say would be better summed up as training with these princples in mind, because when we can fish for and see the bunkai we will get different techniques and variations over the years (training imho) due to the opening of what Taika Oyata calls the "inner eyes" to see the true contents of the forms. So by training we are progressivly getting better with new knowledge etc. Not just training the forms "dead" (without understanding) ;-)
We really need to get together and train soon LOL are you going to be at the MGK Nationals in July???
Take care,
--Josh

Happy Holidays Everyone:ultracool


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## Makalakumu (Dec 25, 2006)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Being able to visualize what is taking place in the exchange between you and the opponent(s) in the hyung/kata is crucial to your being able to make the connection from basics, to hyung/kata, to sparring and to the street.


 
I would love to see your requirement sheets in order to see how you structure your curriculum around these goals.  Most TSD dojangs DO NOT have these connections and thus the practice of hyung is mostly just the repetition of various moves without the intimate connection to what is actually happening.

Learning the hyung and learning the applications to that hyung changes everything about how TSD has been taught.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 28, 2006)

Hi John,
I dont have the Bunkai on a curriculum sheet (per say). I start teaching principles of movement, and Bunkai right from the beginning in order to establish proper mind-set in my students. As we move thru the curriculum of basics my students have to establish an understanding of these principles, and then the Bunkai before I give them more. 

I dont adhere to a testing schedule for any of my students. I test them as they are (in my eyes) ready for the next rank, and in order for them to be ready in my eyes, they have to have complete understanding and ability to demonstrate the curriculum, and teach it to their juniors on a level that I deem acceptable. They are in no hurry to transition up the rank ladder. They are groomed to understand that the learning is the priority, and that rank only shows how far thru my system they have come. This is the way people should view their training

I am looking forward to receiving the video that we spoke about last night, and sharing what I do with you as well. 

Please give my best to your instructor and Master Nelson for a Happy and Healthy New Year


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## tsdclaflin (Jan 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Master Penfil
> 
> I've often felt that the gicho hyungs are too basic and simplistic. Especially when they are followed up by Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. I've read why Funakoshi Sensei created them...
> upnorthkyosa


 
The gichos also have a Japanese origin?  Please confirm.  I thought the higher forms had a Japanese origin and that the gichos came much later.

Thanks in advance.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jan 7, 2007)

Hi Ken,
The Gicho Hyungs were created by Funakoshis son. Funakoshi introduced these hyung in his book; Karate Jutsu, published in 1922. 

Many in the Tang Soo Do community teach that Hwang Kee created these hyung, but this is simply not so.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


_*TANG SOO!!!*_


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## exile (Jan 7, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> The Gicho Hyungs were created by Funakoshis son. Funakoshi introduced these hyung in his book; Karate Jutsu, published in 1922.Many in the Tang Soo Do community teach that Hwang Kee created these hyung, but this is simply not so.
> 
> Yours in Tang Soo Do,
> 
> Master Jay S. Penfi



This is very important information; thanks for posting it. 

I have been teaching some of my younger students some of the basic bunkai for the kichos. Kicho Il Jang, as I read it, teaches you how to use hikite (the `retraction chambering move') to anchor an opponent who's grabbed your hand or clothing while you use change in body angle (the 90 degree turn implied by the relation between the choon bi start and the first down `block') and the lower-to-upper `chambering' movement to establish a combined wrist/elbow lock on the assailant, forcing their upper body down,  followed by the down `block' to attack weak points on their upper arm or to effect and armbar across the throat, and then the lunge punch, now a strike not to the chest or solar plexus as in the textbook app but rather to the throat or neck/jaw boundary, the carotid sinus, etc... 

The point is not to teach them a full bunkai for this kicho, let along try to get them thinking about kaisai no genri, which I'm still trying to work out for myself based on my own `experiments' and those of the UK `realistic bunkai' crowd. What I want them to understand is that these forms we're teachig encode powerful, harsh and potentially severely damaging combat techniques that themselves are expressions of certain more basic principles  that support all karate-based fighting systems. I _don't_ want them to think we're teaching them a bunch of pretty dances...


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jan 8, 2007)

Exile,
Have you had an opportunity to train with Sensei Vince Morris? He has been here in Michigan a couple of times, and I have had the benefit of training with him over two weekends in past years. If you have not had that opportunity, I will send along info on his association for you...

Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## exile (Jan 8, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Exile,
> Have you had an opportunity to train with Sensei Vince Morris? He has been here in Michigan a couple of times, and I have had the benefit of training with him over two weekends in past years. If you have not had that opportunity, I will send along info on his association for you...
> 
> Yours in Tang Soo Do,
> ...



Hi, Master Penfilno, I haven'tI do know of him from the work of Bill Burgar, and intend to get his book _Rules of Combat_I know he's part of what I think of as the emerging progressive combat-based kata interpretation group that seems to be developing on both sides of the Atlantic, though it seems to have more traction at this point in the UK, at least judging by the amount of literature exploring it that comes from there. I'd be greatly indebted to you if you could send me that material! :asian:


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 10, 2007)

My school starts with gi cho forms, then the pyong ahn forms (originally all one), bassai (pal chae as I say it) so and deh, then the keema forms (naihanchi to some?) along with forms like sip soo, jin tae, etc.

I personally thing the gi cho forms are great. They get you started, and they ingrain good technique. You learn how to step (very important), change direction, look before you move, breathe in and out, stay one level throughout the form, and begin to grasp yourself in the spatial environment.

With gi cho hyung sam bu, in particular, you learn to shift between the three major stances. 

I personally don't think I'll ever really "master" any form, since there are always things upon which I can improve (Jin tae especially >_<).


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Jan 28, 2007)

I have recently been in contact with Sensei Vince Morris and we are most likely going to have him in for a seminar at my school in May. If anyone is interested in making the trip in to Detroit to take part, please contact me and we will make arrangements for you...


I have trained with many excellent instructors on the application of forms. Vince Morris is right at the top of the list as one of the best.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay s. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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