# Horse stance to bow stance



## KnightlyMongoose (Mar 9, 2010)

I used to assume all martial arts practiced the technique of pivoting from a horse stance to a bow stance, but when I talked to some of my friends about it they looked at me like I was crazy. "Why would you do that?" They asked, "your stance needs to be way wider". There backgrounds were mostly from Japanese and Korean styles which I don't do that. I took a look to youtube and noticed that a lot of CMA also don't seem to pivot between the two stances either. 
So my question is: does your style pivot between horse and bow stances? If you do, do you pivot on your heel, the ball of your foot? Do you step into a wider bow stance when not pivoting?
I've been out of touch with my school for a while, and I always used to pivot on my heel, but I'm not totally sure if that's correct anymore. It seems to be more powerful than pivoting on your toes (still keeping the heel down though). Any thoughts?


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## 72ronin (Mar 9, 2010)

Well, the zenkutsu dachi or forward stance in Shotokan may be a little longer than say a bow stance from kenpo, so thats going to play a role in peoples responces to this question. However, transition between stances is quite important in my opinion.

Heres an egsample of transition between horse and forward stance in Hangetsu Kata.
(Allow the vid to play through once and then replay to get rid of the fast forward effect that happens the first time through)






 

So, despite what people have said to you, we can see here it is quite a natural transition. Sometimes its just a matter of what people are exsposed to in their training that defines their knowledge is all..

For the second part of your question, hmm, well its not something we drill often, however what we do drill quite often is ; From backstance knifehand gaurding block to forward stance reverse punch and in this case its a front foot adjustment.  Another egsample might be Heian Godan's last couple movements, again, front foot adjustment.  A certain movement in Bassai Dai Kata, again front foot adjustment..
Generally, the ball of the foot carries your weight as you grind or adjust your weight - but, styles can vary, nothing totaly set in stone..


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## David43515 (Mar 9, 2010)

I was always taught to pivot on the heel (unless you`re in the middle of a high kick) and yes Southern Shaolin spends lots of time pivoting from horse to bow and from horse to low bow which is like a low back stance.


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## geezer (Mar 9, 2010)

KnightlyMongoose said:


> I used to assume all martial arts practiced the technique of pivoting from a horse stance to a bow stance, but when I talked to some of my friends about it they looked at me like I was crazy... Any thoughts?


 
Thoughts? Well for starters, even the "horse-stance" itself is not a universal, even in _Chinese _Martial arts. Many "flexible" Southern Chinese systems (Southern Mantis, Fukien Crane, Hakka, Wing Chun, Pak Mei, etc.) use narrower upright stances very unlike a deep horse stance. In my style, Wing Chun, the basic training stance is _"Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma"_ ("Character 'Two' Adduction Stance", also called "Goat Riding Stance"). This stance is narrow, knock-kneed, and pigeon toed, like riding a little goat rather than a large horse. Also, the _front-arrow, back bow-stance_ is generally used rather than the _front-bow back-arrow stance _or "bow-stance" you describe. _Turning_ in my lineage is done on the _center_ of the foot, others use either heel or toe. I assume the same variations could occur in other Chinese styles as well, so it would be best to consult with your Si-fu or a senior practitioner of your specific style. It's best to keep in mind that there are many Chinese martial arts, and that they are as diverse as China itself!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2010)

KnightlyMongoose said:


> I used to assume all martial arts practiced the technique of pivoting from a horse stance to a bow stance, but when I talked to some of my friends about it they looked at me like I was crazy. "Why would you do that?" They asked, "your stance needs to be way wider". There backgrounds were mostly from Japanese and Korean styles which I don't do that. I took a look to youtube and noticed that a lot of CMA also don't seem to pivot between the two stances either.
> So my question is: does your style pivot between horse and bow stances? If you do, do you pivot on your heel, the ball of your foot? Do you step into a wider bow stance when not pivoting?
> I've been out of touch with my school for a while, and I always used to pivot on my heel, but I'm not totally sure if that's correct anymore. It seems to be more powerful than pivoting on your toes (still keeping the heel down though). Any thoughts?


 
CMA Horse stance is Ma Bu (Mandarin)

And it is a basic training stance in some styles no pivoting to other stances in any of the styles I have trained. My Taiji sifu had to stand in it a lot in the beginning of his training but it is not really part of his Taiji at all. 

There are style, like Xingyiquan the really don't care about Ma Bu at all. They are more concerned with Santi Shi

Police/Military Sanda does not even train Ma Bu as far as I know and I doubt Sports Sanda (Sanshou) does either.



geezer said:


> Thoughts? Well for starters, even the "horse-stance" itself is not a universal, even in _Chinese _Martial arts. Many "flexible" Southern Chinese systems (Southern Mantis, Fukien Crane, Hakka, Wing Chun, Pak Mei, etc.) use narrower upright stances very unlike a deep horse stance. In my style, Wing Chun, the basic training stance is _"Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma"_ ("Character 'Two' Adduction Stance", also called "Goat Riding Stance"). This stance is narrow, knock-kneed, and pigeon toed, like riding a little goat rather than a large horse. Also, the _front-arrow, back bow-stance_ is generally used rather than the _front-bow back-arrow stance _or "bow-stance" you describe. _Turning_ in my lineage is done on the _center_ of the foot, others use either heel or toe. I assume the same variations could occur in other Chinese styles as well, so it would be best to consult with your Si-fu or a senior practitioner of your specific style. It's best to keep in mind that there are many Chinese martial arts, and that they are as diverse as China itself!


 
Same in the North, it is not as important to many styles.


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## KnightlyMongoose (Mar 9, 2010)

Thanks for all the input guys. It's good to know the southern shaolin guys pivot like we do as well. Really when I think about it though a lot of the forms we practice don't have any pivoting at all. There's a long fist set we do where we move between a horse stance (Ma bu) and a bow stance (Gong bu) much like a boxing jab-cross combo. And we practice a Baji form where we pivot between the two occasionally, but other than those forms there's no pivoting.


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