# best martial system of tai chi



## bigfootsquatch (Sep 24, 2007)

chen, wu, hao/wu(i think?), sun, yang?

I'd like a short reason of why you think the respective style is the best.
Thanks guys!


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## Flying Crane (Sep 24, 2007)

They have all had their proponents who were/are tremendously skilled in fighting.  So under the right teacher, they could all give very good fighting skills.

That's the problem tho.  Not many good teachers of any of them are available, at least in the US, who really understand the fighting side of it.  Most people are really only teaching tai chi for health.

That being said, I think Chen in general is more obviously martial.  According to the history, Chen was the original tai chi, and it was always a fighting art.  Yang learned from the Chen family, and established his own way.  He was also a very very skilled fighter.

I believe most of the other methods split from Yang at some point or other.

In modern times however, it seems that the mainstream of all these methods are shifting to a Health focus, and letting much of the martial side slip away.  

Do some searching under rocks and in caves and behind garages.  You just might find someone somewhere who is competently teaching the martial side.  It's still out there, but ya gotta look harder to find the real thing, and you might need to be patient and prove your worth to a teacher over time, before he is willing to teach you the good stuff.  Some of the old-school teachers are still very selective with this kind of thing.


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## grydth (Sep 24, 2007)

It has been said that it is not the style, but rather the practitioner.

To this, I would add it is also the teacher. Many in the USA do not even teach the martial aspects any more - if they even know them. Others may be excellent practitioners themselves, but are not adept at passing it on.

I believe if a determined student finds a reputable sifu, excellent things can happen...... in any style.


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## Sunrise (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree with the postings above. For myself the best fitting style is one that gives utmost flexibility to application and the body and also has great health benefits so I can train it untill I die at old age


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## Keith Kirkendall (Oct 10, 2007)

Personally, I prefer the Old Yang Style from Yang Lu Ch'an.


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 10, 2007)

Keith Kirkendall said:


> Personally, I prefer the Old Yang Style from Yang Lu Ch'an.



Dont forget that there is Imperial Yang, King's Fist, and Wisdom Fist that all came from Lu Chan. I only know very little about them, but they do look different than Yang Cheng Fu's form.


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## Tai G (Oct 30, 2007)

I'm new to Chen after studying yang off and on for several years. From what I've seen of both, they would both serve you well for basic on the street self defense. Although the Chen ( Fa ke's lineage) I'm being taught still has a lot of "battlefield" type quick, vicious, disabling moves that weren't really present in the yang I was taught, or it seems what many people are taught with Chen( Is this generally true? Thoughts?)Oddly enough, as a Buddhist "messing people up" is not my intention, but it does seem with martial arts you are better off being able to "turn it down" choosing not to mangle people but still defend yourself than just barely being able to get by if you are lucky.
peace


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 5, 2007)

Which style of taiji is the best martial system?

Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, Li, CMC, etc.

If taught correctly and trained correctly all of them are good. But taught correctly and trained correctly means you will be training any one of the styles for a long time to be able to use it.


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## East Winds (Nov 6, 2007)

I agree. Any of the family systems "trained correctly" would provide an effective and efficient Martial Art. None of which would necessarily be any better than the other.They all provide different/similar routes to the same end. Good health was merely an off-shoot of a fighting art.

Best wishes


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 8, 2007)

grydth said:


> It has been said that it is not the style, but rather the practitioner.
> 
> To this, I would add it is also the teacher. Many in the USA do not even teach the martial aspects any more - if they even know them. Others may be excellent practitioners themselves, but are not adept at passing it on.
> 
> I believe if a determined student finds a reputable sifu, excellent things can happen...... in any style.




Absolutely agree.

Which style is of trivial importance compared to which teacher and which student.


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## Selfcritical (Nov 8, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Absolutely agree.
> 
> Which style is of trivial importance compared to which teacher and which student.



Whatever Tai Chi school you can find that has walking unrestricted step push hands early on, incorparates shuai Jiao rounds to work takedowns, and spars using Sanda rules. Good luck finding them in america.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2007)

Selfcritical said:


> Whatever Tai Chi school you can find that has walking unrestricted step push hands early on, incorparates shuai Jiao rounds to work takedowns, and spars using Sanda rules. Good luck finding them in america.


 
But then that is not taiji then is it.

Taiji as a martial art takes a long tome to train and study to be able to use it as a martial art - years.

Traditionally push hands is not worked on early it is worked on later and Shuaijiao is Shuaijiao not taiji although traditional taiji has take downs and sweeps and Sanda rules don't even apply to anything but sports Sanda.


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## Selfcritical (Nov 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> But then that is not taiji then is it.
> 
> Taiji as a martial art takes a long tome to train and study to be able to use it as a martial art - years.
> 
> Traditionally push hands is not worked on early it is worked on later and Shuaijiao is Shuaijiao not taiji although traditional taiji has take downs and sweeps and Sanda rules don't even apply to anything but sports Sanda.



So san shou, which is equivalent to Sanda, is simply a phrase that means "sparring" under most idioms. _And there's a reason for that_. Mainly, that those are the rules closest to how chinese arts traditionally sparred. When Taji is a fighting art, it is practiced _mainly by fighting. _There's a reason why TCC schools do a very good job of producing san da champions(particularly in the UK)

Also, I was using Shiajiao here in the sense of "competing to wrestle to takedown". Like many things, it can be an event for styles to compete in, or a style in and of itself. TCC has a number of highly effective takedowns and solid takedown defenses, but the only way you're going to get good at landing them is to.......work to takedown. 

This gentleman has only Taji experience, but enters a shiajiao tournament with no hitches at all.......almost as if Taji produces primarily a takedown-oriented skills-set!http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7360397892170796596

Footage of Chinese push-hands tournaments would further demonstrate the degree to which the lines blur here. I can supply these if needed. 

Below is an interview with yang funaki, where he touches on the importance of sparring in Tai Chi and describes the motions he uses to defeat his opponent. His descriptions show more than a passing similarity to Shiajiao or Judo, and I find it hard to not conclude that this is largely because they are systems with similar aims. *Bob Feldman:* You started learning Taijiquan as a child from your father and grandfather, and you also learned and taught within the official Wushu establishment. How different was your familys traditional training from modern training that Taiji students now receive?

*Yang Fukui:* It was quite different. Traditionally, we do not train by long sequences of forms. We concentrate more on developing gongfu [...]

*BF:* How did they practice then?

*YF:* First of all, they devoted most of their practice to gongfu and martial arts, not to health or "spiritual development," although these two latter aspects certainly underlied their practice. Their emphasis was different. For example, they never practiced more than a two or three form or movements in sequence, in order to develop fighting skill and gongfu, and they never linked more than five forms [ the article clarifies that by "form" he means "posture," not sequence ] together[1]. There were no such things as the 24 or 85 or 108 form Taijiquan. Only two or three forms at a time were used for the solo practice of gongfu.

According to my grandfather, Yang Chen Hous practice stressed more form combinations while his brother, Yang Ban Hou, put more emphasis upon push hands for fighting and two-man practice. Yang Ban Hou also had fewer students than younger brother, perhaps because his teaching sessions were very rough and painful, as there was a lot of contact[2]. Similarly, in the third generation, my great grandfather, Yang Xiao Hou, was also more interested in push hands and fighting. He had far fewer students than his brother Yang Cheng-fu. He was more "closed door" and interested in preserving the familys practice. Yang Cheng-fu was a more of a public figure, and his desire was to promote the study of Yang style Taijiquan throughout China. Therefore, he created the Taolu, which is known in English as "The Long Form."

The Long Form Taijiquan set is good for health and for improving the quality of the bodys vital energy. But in order to fight, one must learn how to build up the energy and then explosively send it out. [...]

Whatever [training path] one chooses, it is also good to practice push hands with another person. Push hands can both help to increase ones sensitivity and explosivity, and also serve as an introduction to fighting. In addition, a higher level fighter can more easily use explosive force, while lower level Taiji practitioners use brute strength in pushing or striking the opponent instead.

*BF:* How are push ands and fighting different?

*YF:* If you watch someone practice the Taiji forms, they are performed slowly, peacefully, and quietly. Fighting is different. Push hands is preliminary training for fighting and usually starts off slowly. In push hands one also has to "listen" or "sense" the opponents force, and to remain relaxed and soft while receiving an opponents force prior to responding.
In fighting, the opponent does not attack softly or slowly. The attack is as rapid as possible. In Taiji fighting, with experience, one can follow the opponents force, and use their own force and their energy to defeat them. [...]

If I want, I can use your energy to fight you, by allowing you to fully extend yourself to the point where you are off-balance. I then redirect your energy back to you in order to defeat you. This must be executed very quickly. If you attempt to attack me quickly, I use circular or spiralic movement to gain the advantage and defeat you[3].

*BF:* In the traditional way of practice, how did the earlier Yang masters practice the forms to enhance their fighting skills?

*YF:* First of all, they would initially practice slowly and softly, but *they would also practice the forms and sequences with speed and explosive power*. The kicks and punches would also be done at full speed, but the kicks are internally generated by utilizing the power of the whole body.

*BF:* What other kinds of basics did they practice traditionally besides forms and push hands?

*YF:* As in any Chinese martial art, one has to develop adequate flexibility through stretching. This is often not appreciated by many people in the West who learn Taiji. Although Taijiquan Taolu will help you obtain better flexibility, if you study Taijiquan as a martial art, it is required. After one gains adequate flexibility, one can start training the muscles, tendons, ligaments, and bones for strength and rooting. This is done by practicing in lower stances and using special weights, the long staff, and the Taiji ball [4].

*BF:* Can you further discuss the Taiji ball and other training aids that are used in traditional Yang style Taiji?

*YF:* First, we use a heavy cube-shaped weight. It is used for certain simple exercises to help strengthen the bones, tendons, muscles, and ligaments. It is usually done in a low posture.

Next we progress to the Taiji ball, which is more advanced, as it incorporates circular and spiraling movements while holding the ball in a variety of exercises. It is also done in low postures and can vary in weight from light to heavy (usually between 2.5 to 10 kilograms / 5.5 to 22 pounds), as your root deepens and you become stronger[5].

*BF:* When did you start to practice Taiji fighting?

*YF:* I had become accomplished in push hands by the age of 18, having pushed a lot with my grandfather, father, older brother, and their advanced students. I later even won a national championship competition in Weihua City, Shandong Province, in 1984 in the middleweight division of Yang style push hands. [...]

Of course, *one gains fighting experience mainly by fighting*, but the application of powerful attacks are soft, elusive responses to an opponents attack, and the ability to both follow and redirect the opponents force is more the product of good training in the other aspects of Taiji that we have discussed. If your skills are good, then you need to fight to be able to learn how to use them, while keeping the relaxed, centered mental state of Taijiquan.

The foundation of Taiji fighting comes in part from push hands, although *push hands is not all there is to fighting*. Most Taijiquan fighting utilizes close fighting methods, but in push hands we still have to adhere to some form, which is the basis for our movement. Fighting is much more free and without forms.

*BF:* What if one fights with an opponent is not trained in Taiji?

*YF:* Taiji fighters will usually look for the opponents center and attempt to uproot their balance by whatever technique is used[3, again].

*BF:* How important are the kicks and punches that one practices in the forms?

*YF:* In the forms, one practices the kicks and punches very slowly, but when we use them, we use very fast moves. Kicks and punches in a fight and in the forms are different. For example, although a kick may be high in the form, the kicks in fighting are usually low kicks.

*BF:* In the West, many books have been written suggesting that the Yang family possesses two separate methods of training and there are two separate Tao Lu, one "outdoor" for the public, and a second "indoor" for the family. Is this true?

*YF:* This is true, but probably not in the way you think. [...] our so-called "Family Taolu" is really the method by which we train, not a series of secret forms. It is rather the ability to take each form or a series of several forms, and utilize them effectively. This is traditional Yang Taiji training. You will recall that the Taolu did not develop substantially until the 3rd generation. *The Taolu created by Yang Cheng-fu and others are good for health and conditioning but are not that meaningful for fighting as the training methods we have discussed: the ball, weight, staff training, and push hands*.

*BF:* How similar or different was your grandfathers practice from your fathers?

*YF:* My grandfather practiced only Taijiquan for most of his life. He had a lot of internal energy and fighting skills. [...] But my father was required to teach the government mandated forms, unlike my grandfather, who only practiced and taught traditional Taijiquan. Because my father had to teach modern Taijiquan, perhaps he could not as much convey the deeper training to many of his students. Nor could he teach the old way as often as my grandfather.
Both my grandfather and my father stressed to me that, although I had to teach the new way, I must remember and continue to practice the old way [...].


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2007)

Selfcritical said:


> So san shou, which is equivalent to Sanda, is simply a phrase that means "sparring" under most idioms. _And there's a reason for that_. Mainly, that those are the rules closest to how chinese arts traditionally sparred. When Taji is a fighting art, it is practiced _mainly by fighting. _There's a reason why TCC schools do a very good job of producing san da champions(particularly in the UK)
> 
> Also, I was using Shiajiao here in the sense of "competing to wrestle to takedown". Like many things, it can be an event for styles to compete in, or a style in and of itself. TCC has a number of highly effective takedowns and solid takedown defenses, but the only way you're going to get good at landing them is to.......work to takedown.
> 
> ...


 
You said Sanda Rules not Sanda which I am aware is also called Sanshou and just about every CMA has something they call Sanshou and in some cases that is just a 2 person form. But Sanda rules and Sanda/Sanshou is not the same thing.

And whatever the want to label the supplied video it is at best Shuaijiao vs. Shuaijiao. No offense I am rather impressed with Shuaijiao but again it is not taiji although, as I previously stated Taiji does have takedowns and sweeps, just look at some of the Chen videos out there but again it does not look like the supplied video which is very much Shuaijiao

Also there is no need to supply videos of the Current Chinese push hands competitions I have seen them and they are doing a good job at what they are trying to do but it is not push hands it is wrestling. 

This is the BIG problem with taiji today is that there are a lot of people out there trying to shortcut it to get to the martial arts and what they are coming up with is effective but still not taiji. Look at the video you supplied and you see way to much force way to much muscle against muscle. This is VERY much contributing to the death of real taiji as a martial art.

I can generally feel it when anyone is going for a qinna lock on me, I cant always counter, but I can almost always tell, except when my taiji Sifu and I do push hands, I cannot feel it coming I can not counter it and I am all of a sudden locked. But he has done taiji and only taiji for over 50 years. 

And yes, sparing (aka freestyle push hands) is important to taiji but that does not come until much later

And who the heck is Yang Funaki and who was his teacher?


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## Selfcritical (Nov 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> You said Sanda Rules not Sanda which I am aware is also called Sanshou and just about every CMA has something they call Sanshou and in some cases that is just a 2 person form. But Sanda rules and Sanda/Sanshou is not the same thing.
> 
> And whatever the want to label the supplied video it is at best Shuaijiao vs. Shuaijiao. No offense I am rather impressed with Shuaijiao but again it is not taiji although, as I previously stated Taiji does have takedowns and sweeps, just look at some of the Chen videos out there but again it does not look like the supplied video which is very much Shuaijiao
> 
> ...



The gentleman in the video has ONLY taji training. No matter what the level of training any resistance will involve some force on force, and explosive use of power will always be of use once you've broken someone's balance. What's killing Taji as a martial art is _people not using it in a martial fashion. _As long as the art is defined almost entirely by people who are never using their skills with contact, it will continue to decline. 

Yang Fukui is a member of the Yang family who grew up studying several different forms of CMA, including (of course) Yang taiji, Hebei Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and a bunch of traditional externals (including Baji). He went on to win various contents in China, including Yang _tui shou_ and open _san shou_ matches.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 8, 2007)

Selfcritical said:


> The gentleman in the video has ONLY taji training. No matter what the level of training any resistance will involve some force on force, and explosive use of power will always be of use once you've broken someone's balance. What's killing Taji as a martial art is _people not using it in a martial fashion. _As long as the art is defined almost entirely by people who are never using their skills with contact, it will continue to decline.
> 
> Yang Fukui is a member of the Yang family who grew up studying several different forms of CMA, including (of course) Yang taiji, Hebei Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and a bunch of traditional externals (including Baji). He went on to win various contents in China, including Yang _tui shou_ and open _san shou_ matches.


 
Interesting *but not a member of the Yang Taiji family* now is he. The only Yang Fukui that was a member of the Yang taiji family is also know as Yang Luchan who is the founder of Yang style taiji and lived from 1799 to 1872 so I seriously doubt this is the same guy.

You might want to read the following form the Yang Fukui's web page that I think you are talking about



> Master Yang Fukui is from Tianjin, China. His family was known for their xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan. His great grandfather, Zhai Xu Jin learned baguazhang and xingyiquan from Zhang Zhao Dong (Dong Hai Chuan's student).
> At six years old Master Yang began training with his grandfather, Yang Zhen Xiang and granduncle, Zhai Yong Wen (Zhai Xu Jin's son), both renowned masters. Soon after, he began training in external wushu (tongbei, fanzi, tanglang, ditang, shaolin, etc...). He learned Chen taijiquan from Feng Zi Quan and studied yiquan and the related martial arts of xinguizhang and loshuenquan under Masters Zhao Daoxin, Chu Jenhe and Zhang Entong, all students of Master Wang Xiangzhai.
> As a teenager Master Yang was a member of the Tianjin Wushu Team and won first place at several National (China) and international competitions. He is a wushu coach, an Internationally ranked wushu judge and a professor of Chinese Medicine.



As I said my Sifu has done taiji and only taiji for 50 years... nice talking to you.


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## Selfcritical (Nov 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting *but not a member of the Yang Taiji family* now is he. The only Yang Fukui that was a member of the Yang taiji family is also know as Yang Luchan who is the founder of Yang style taiji and lived from 1799 to 1872 so I seriously doubt this is the same guy.
> 
> You might want to read the following form the Yang Fukui's web page that I think you are talking about
> 
> ...


 
Yes, and other people have done Taji and have different interpretations of the art. 

Also, the interviewed gentleman's geneology is a matter of public record- you are incorrect.


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## Selfcritical (Nov 8, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting *but not a member of the Yang Taiji family* now is he. The only Yang Fukui that was a member of the Yang taiji family is also know as Yang Luchan who is the founder of Yang style taiji and lived from 1799 to 1872 so I seriously doubt this is the same guy.
> 
> You might want to read the following form the Yang Fukui's web page that I think you are talking about
> 
> ...


 
For reference 
"I began my training in martial arts in Tenjin, China, at the age of 6. Unlike most Chinese children who initially study external martial arts, I first learned internal martial arts. This was because of my familys lineage. My father and grandfather were descendants of Yang Luquan, the found of Yang style taijiquan."


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## East Winds (Nov 9, 2007)

Selfcritical,

The only member of the Yang family lineage I can find called Yang Fukui was Yang Lu Chan. Can you explain more where the guy you are referring to comes in the Yang lineage please?

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2007)

East Winds said:


> Selfcritical,
> 
> The only member of the Yang family lineage I can find called Yang Fukui was Yang Lu Chan. Can you explain more where the guy you are referring to comes in the Yang lineage please?
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Actually I do not believe he comes from the Yang Taiji lineage at all. Per his web page he learned Chen. He just happens to have the family name of Yang much like Yang Jwing Ming who claims no Yang family Lineage only Yang Lineage to Yang Banhou via his teacher Cao Tao (I believe that was his taiji teachers name)

As for this Yang Fukai I do not believe he has any link to Yang style Taiji from the Yang Family.


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## Selfcritical (Nov 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually I do not believe he comes from the Yang Taiji lineage at all. Per his web page he learned Chen. He just happens to have the family name of Yang much like Yang Jwing Ming who claims no Yang family Lineage only Yang Lineage to Yang Banhou via his teacher Cao Tao (I believe that was his taiji teachers name)
> 
> As for this Yang Fukai I do not believe he has any link to Yang style Taiji from the Yang Family.



He indicated otherwise in the interview posted above. Do we have reason to believe he's lying?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2007)

Selfcritical said:


> He indicated otherwise in the interview posted above. Do we have reason to believe he's lying?


 
Lying no, I wouldn&#8217;t call it lying just yet, but I currently believe it is fuzzy truth. 

there is reason to doubt his claim

And sorry, but you are correct he is claiming relation to the Yang family via his grandfather Yang Xiao Hou who I assume is Yang Shaohou. So if he is the grandson of Yang Shaohou he is the son of whom?

Yang Shaohou (Yang Zhao Xiong) had two sons Yang Zhensheng and Yang Wen Zhong, whom Yang Fukui of the article never mentions. Also Yang Fukui is not listed on the Yang family site or in the Yang family tree. But then this is not exactly proof of his lineage not being from the Yang family, they just recently added the Yang Shaohou line to the page.

The only other possibility for his Grandfather is Yang Zhao Yuan who died young and had one daughter Yang Cong.

The only children listed for Yang Zhen Sheng (the son of Yang Shaohou) are Yang Yu Pin, Yang Wen Zhong (Jin Pin) who died in 1989, and Yang Wen Bin (Pin Er). Which one is Yang Fukui?

He (Yang Fukui) also claims to have done push hands with his grandfather who I am assuming is Yang Shaohou who died in 1930 so to have done push hands with his grandfather Fukui would now have to be almost 80 years old or older. How old is Yang Fukui?

But then he could be talking about his other grandfather which then says he did not train with the Yang family. Also, historically members of Taiji families that are trained by those families do not train other arts. It appears Yang Fukui has trained other arts.

Is this the same Yang Fukui that you are talking about?
http://www.xinyiwuguan.com/main.html




http://www.wutehtaiji.com/martial.html

Also as far as I know all of Yang Shaohou family is in Hong Kong and Yang Fukui never mentions Hong Kong.

But I am willing to check into this further, maybe his claim is legitimate, but at this point I have my doubts but I will check and get back to you

EDIT:

One more question; Who was Yang Fukui's teacher for Yang stlye? He never actually says who he learned it from.

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing

You have twice now written the name yang funaki, is this the Yang Fukui of the posted article?


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## Selfcritical (Nov 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Lying no, I wouldnt call it lying just yet, but I currently believe it is fuzzy truth.
> 
> there is reason to doubt his claim
> 
> ...



I'm typo-prone. Let me see if I can find contact information for the writer of the article, and we can perhaps get to the bottom of that?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2007)

Selfcritical said:


> I'm typo-prone. Let me see if I can find contact information for the writer of the article, and we can perhaps get to the bottom of that?


 
Thank You but I have found the answer already

Per Yang Zhendou 



> Yang Zhenduo announced that he and other family members had thoroughly investigated this latter-day Yang Fukui and determined that the person depicted in recent magazine articles is not descended from Yang Zhenduo's uncle Yang Shaohou, indeed not related to them at all. Yang Zhenduo criticized the deception practiced by Yang Fukui, saying it contravened martial arts morality.


 
Yang Fukui
http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000015.html


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## Selfcritical (Nov 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thank You but I have found the answer already
> 
> Per Yang Zhendou
> 
> ...




Touche'


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