# the system?



## jkdhit

has anyone ever heard of "the system"? it's a russian martial arts system, i heard about it from my college in freshmen year at the hand-to-hand combat club because that's what they taught.

  the 2 instructors were being a bit cocky and asking me to demonstrate roundhouse kicks and comparing it with roundhouse kicks in the system which was actually just a spin kick. i actually took down the main instructor when he had asked for a quick spar - he caught me in a wrist lock when i gave him a cross punch but i countered it with a headlock using my legs. he told me i was too flexible for him and had me spar the other instructor who was only a couple of years older than me at the time. i gave him a high roundhouse to the head but he slipped under it put me in a full nelson and wrapped his legs around my waist. i threw my back to the floor to loosen his grip, he put his legs around my head in a headlock and i flipped backwards out of the lock, stomped him in the stomach with my hip, and proceeded to put him in a leg lock.

  after that, they tried to convince me to join their school because the head instructor always taught and is supposed to be among the best of all the instructors in the entire system. they also told me that the system is somewhat similar to jkd which i didn't believe at all. they also tried to convince me to check out the martial arts site at www.russianmartialart.com

  so i ended up checking out the site and ordered a few of the videos which were quite expensive. when i saw the videos, i thought they were just hilarious because the movements used are basically mechanical movements programmed into your head for certain situations. i also saw the main instructor in the video who's a very heavy set man.. in all the videos the 2 instructors seem very cocky and perform impractical movements in slow motion. never do they show anything in actual speed.

  what i also thought was funny was that one of the instructors in the video made claims about how he would never use "the system" in sparring because of how dangerous it would be on the opponent that's why he never competes in competitions. but also he claimed that he outruns machine guns, etc etc

     i just thought i'd share my insights and see if anyone else had seen the videos or practiced "the system"


   here are some links to videos..

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1gn.mpg

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/strikes.wmv

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1Defense%20ag.%20Wep.wmv

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/1systema%20HH%20to%20HH.wmv


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## Bester

Well, you found the right forum.
Now, try reading it.
You'll notice an easy dozen people here train it, and even teach it.


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## jkdhit

since this thread is up, maybe some people can answer some of my questions..

 has anyone who practices it or teaches it.. actually used it in real life situations or sparring?  i just find it very hard to believe some of the techniques taught in video such as the trinity punch, trinity kick, iron neck, etc etc


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## MattW

In regards to the sparring issue:
The System is not meant to be a competitive, ring martial art. Nor is meant to be used in point sparring. It is a system of survival and practicality (even though you may disagree).

In regards to real life:
I have not been in any situation where I have needed it, but certain things become engrained in you, IE the relaxation, the types of movement, etc. There is also the aspect of conflict resolution prior to the conflict, which I have actually employed. Being able to keep the relaxed mindset allows you to stop a conflict from progressing to the point of actually needing it. I do, however, know quite a few people that have survived instances that probably would have otherwise killed them. Its not my place to share those stories though.

Trinity striking is actually a very interesting and practical application. Trinity strikes generally happen out of natural relaxed movements. Take for example punching someone in the stomach. That persons natural reaction is to fold/bend over. When someone bends over, their head comes forward. While the arm is still extended, all it takes is one rotation of the elbow to change trajectories and strike that person under the chin (with the elbow). And again, your arm can continue to follow natural rotations to add in more strikes. As far as trinity kicks go, in my experience, they have generally been used in the sense of striking the front leg with a knee while walking through and continuing the knee into a kick towards the back leg, usually dropping the person. They are quick, natural, continuous movements. I'm not sure what you mean by iron neck, unless you're referring to a practice similar to the Qigong practice... and I've not seen a practice like that in Systema. Does not mean they don't exist though.

My word may not mean much, but the system is, as I've seen it from my instructor, the most practical martial art around. Keep going to the class, even just for fun. It may be the instructor you've encountered that's not quite up to par, but I'm in no place to judge considering I have no idea who he is. As far as The System being similar to JKD... I would disagree, but that's just me. They may have similar principles and the like, but from what I've seen, they're very different.


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## Klondike93

> the movements used are basically mechanical movements programmed into your head for certain situations.



I don't know what you were looking at here, but the system is not full of pre-programed responses to certain situations. What your taught is that through breathing, relaxation, movement and form you do the work required for the situation at hand. Now that could be a knife attack, grabs, punches, kicks whatever, the work is still the same. One the system is not is a sport, there are no protective gloves, cups, mouth guards so the sparring is a bit different. The reasond for slowing down the movement are many, to feel how your body want's to move, how the attackers moving, etc... It is a good thing to go fast every now and then to feel what it's like and see how the movement happens, but it usually comes with a price of some pain. 



> they also told me that the system is somewhat similar to jkd which i didn't believe at all



your correct, it's not anything like JKD or any other Asian art for that matter.




> they also tried to convince me to check out the martial arts site at www.russianmartialart.com



you should check out the forums, there are quite a few instructors that post there that can answer any questions you have.



> in all the videos the 2 instructors seem very cocky and perform impractical movements in slow motion



I have yet to run into any instructor that's appeared cocky, arrogant or thinking their better than everybody else. That's just one character you don't find in the system.

I'm sure there are a few that will see this and respond much better than I can, but if your ever near a seminar with Vladimir, attend it. Also be sure to ask him if it's practical or "really" works, it saved his skin in combat for 10 years.  


 :supcool:


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## Jackal

Doesn't look like the two "instructors" you ran into knew what the hell they were doing or what they were talking about.

I'd have liked to see that match.

Spin kicks, and wrist locks and full nelsons...oh my.

Not The System whatever it was. 

As for the hilarious videos; there's some pretty good stuff in there if you know what you're looking at. If not, I'm glad they made you smile, at least. 

They make me smile too.


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## Franc0

All of the Systema instructors I've met and trained with have been nothing but very nice and courteous, along with being very good martial artists.

Franco


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## MattW

Jackal, I'm glad you said it (about the instructors).
Something struck me a little odd about the full nelson thing and spin kicks. *shrugs*


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## Mark Jakabcsin

JKDHIT,
I recommend you check the list of instrucors on Vladimir's web-site to see if the guys you met are listed, like Jessie said your story seems a little odd. You also might want to add the city/state to your profile, there are many events and training groups around the country that aren't listed or are hard to find. By posting your general location myself and others can help point you towards some training you might not otherwise know was around. Take care and best of luck.

Mark J.


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## SonnyPuzikas

Errr... Are you a wanna-be fight choreographer for C rate wanna-be amateur super action movie outfit?
Or you're just so damn good? Kicked "one of the top Systema instructors" ***, as a bonus kicked other ones too...
And 2 instructors in the videos (that could be Vladimir and Mikhail, I'm guessing) are cocky... If they are cocky, your attitude, boychik, borders on being an A-hole...
Now- don't choke in your anger at my attitude. Nothing personal.


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## Mark Jakabcsin

SonnyPuzikas said:
			
		

> Errr... And 2 instructors in the videos (that could be Vladimir and Mikhail, I'm guessing) are cocky... If they are cocky, your attitude, boychik, borders on being an A-hole...
> Now- don't choke in your anger at my attitude. Nothing personal.



Sonny,
LOL. I was thinking the same but when I wrote my post I just couldn't find the words, so I let it slide. Thanks for finding appropriate words (with more color than I could ever muster). 

MJ


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## Klondike93

right on Sonny  :mp5:  sounds like the poser is just a troll though   



 :supcool:


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## arnisador

Klondike93 said:
			
		

> sounds like the poser is just a troll though


 I thought the same. In fairness, though, I have to say...a response like this:



> I have yet to run into any instructor that's appeared cocky, arrogant or thinking their better than everybody else. That's just one character you don't find in the system.


 ...is also a bit hard to swallow. Cockiness and arrogance won't be found among Systema instructors because of the fact that their system is such that that type of 'character' won't be found? No offense, but...isn't that something of a cocky and arrogant attitude? Every other art I'm familiar with has its share of bozos. Every other organized group--I'm thinking here of clergy of various faiths--has its share among them, despite what their 'system' says.


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## jkdhit

i didnt say i beat up two top instructors.. i just said 2 instructors

 i stopped by one school in ny and the instructor there was very nice and modest.


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## Franc0

arnisador said:
			
		

> Every other art I'm familiar with has its share of bozos. Every other organized group--I'm thinking here of clergy of various faiths--has its share among them, despite what their 'system' says.



Yep, I agree. Every art, organisation or group, will have it's share of A-Holes.
Even though I have yet to meet one in Systema so far, I'm sure there's one out there. I do know there are *former * associates that are looked upon in a very negative light by some in Systema. When it comes to the martial arts in general, every bunch has it's bad apples, and theirs lot's o' bunches out there.

Franco


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## SonnyPuzikas

ALL of us have much to improve about the way we are. Most instructors and practitioners in Systema do it by working- practicing what is being preached. Few are more focused on preaching alone.


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## milosmalic

jkdhit said:
			
		

> has anyone who practices it or teaches it.. actually used it in real life situations or sparring?


Yes, yes, also know people who do and did, also have police officers and executives training with us, military people as well.



			
				jkdhit said:
			
		

> i just find it very hard to believe some of the techniques taught in video such as the trinity punch, trinity kick, iron neck, etc etc


OK 

When it comes to slow practicing, in order to improve timing and develop creativity that is the only way. One thing I consider very wise in this art is that concentration on timing development, because timing is the ONLY attribute that can be enhanced while aging. All other attributes like reflex, strength, endurance and hormone rush are shutting down with years.

Of course slow work is not the "combat" application of Systema. Ask for the full speed, and you will get it . Soon I will make some clips of full speed and post the links here. Slow work is the main tool of the learning process.

I hope that you aren't really a troll, but sencerely interested in Systema and intrigued by somebody you saw and consider not competent.


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## Dan G

*Jkdhit* might be trolling, but I don't think so. Either way it seems a really good opportunity to give people (like me) more info on the art.

I am not from a Systema background, I have done only one session, have seen one Vasiliev vid, and have also heard some excellent word of mouth about a seminar Martin Wheeler did for kenpoists in Boston. 

The thing is Systema doesn't fit the conventional expectation of a Martial Art, whatever that might be, even for someone familiar with "non traditional" approaches, so it shouldn't be surprising if people sometimes raise annoying questions or seemingly disrespectful doubts. 

The word of mouth I had on the System was positive, but I was still pretty sceptical when I went along to try a class. 

I have to say I was really impressed with the instructor, the man had "something", and it was effective and impressive, but I can't really begin to describe it as the type and quality of motion is different to anything I have seen before.

I didn't think the students had that "something" yet, but they were definitely learning useful stuff in an interesting way. To me content and method of training looked like being able to deliver, at the very minimum, students with a usefully improved level of practical personal self defence skills, and I liked it.

There were things I found a little odd, like the fact that a lot of students choose to wear camo trousers. Not a problem for me, but I could see it putting off a lot of people that could most gain from the training; women and seniors in particular.

I still have a few questions. I believe the system is of value to a complete beginner as it seems to deliver a useful set of mental skills and useable reactions. I do wonder how many people are able to progress to a first class level of skill. It struck me that those that truly excel largely have either an extreme LEO or military background, and/or a level of excellence in a previous art... basically how well does it replicate? Particularly the knife and gun defence work?
This is absolutely not meant in disrespect of the System, I simply haven't seen enough first-hand, and it is a question I still don't know the answer to.

*Jkdhit* - the people you sparred with seem like decent folk at the very least, so the invitation to visit the instructor might be worth taking up. As for the vids, don't be put off by the slow motion, or the seeming impracticality of the technique until you have a chance to train with someone good first hand. Like you I have a few doubts still (I believe Vasiliev can do it, but still wonder how well it would work for someone else). Luckily I am in a location where I can satisfy my curiosity fairly easily.

I have no intention whatsoever of leaving the art I already train in, but if I can fit in any cross-training the System is right up there at the top of the list of horizons to be broadened. As Mikhail Ryabko is visiting the UK in September I'll hopefully get the opportunity to see the top man in action too!

Respectfully,

Dan


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## jellyman

How do newbies do?

Well, there are no short cuts to high level skill, and what is high level depends on who you ask but...

I can tell you that at least 2 guys have trained in a sattelite club in Hamilton Ontario (ie not with Vlad, but with students of same) for about a year, neither with any training to speak of (maybe a year in this or that when they were kids).

Both left after the year and travelled, where they ran into MA instructors from other styles, who liked what they saw these guys do to the extent they traded free lessons with these guys.

Are these guys high level by systema standards? Not really. But they can hold their own outside with serious MAists.

Like anything, it's about what you put into it too.


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## Dan G

jellyman said:
			
		

> How do newbies do?
> 
> Well, there are no short cuts to high level skill, and what is high level depends on who you ask but...
> 
> I can tell you that at least 2 guys have trained in a sattelite club in Hamilton Ontario (ie not with Vlad, but with students of same) for about a year, neither with any training to speak of (maybe a year in this or that when they were kids).
> 
> Both left after the year and travelled, where they ran into MA instructors from other styles, who liked what they saw these guys do to the extent they traded free lessons with these guys.
> 
> Are these guys high level by systema standards? Not really. But they can hold their own outside with serious MAists.
> 
> Like anything, it's about what you put into it too.


Thanks for your reply. I guess my question is a hard one to answer as so much does depend on individual effort and ability. 

For the two students to be able to represent their art meaningfully after only a year or so of training speaks very well of their training efforts, their instructor, and Systema's teaching method. 

All sounds pretty positive!

Respectfully,

Dan


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## Loki

I'd like to get this thread back on track (or at least where I think "back on track" is). A few questions I'd like to pose:

 What are the main characteristics of Systema?
 Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?

 How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?

 How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?

 What does it take to qualify as an instructor?

 What's the idea behind the military theme?

 What makes Systema effective/efficient?

 Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?

 Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?


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## Marginal

http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page6.html

Lotsa articles.


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## RachelK

Loki,

There is so much information available on Systema, most especially on the official North American site http://www.russianmartialart.com Why not just go read it rather than asking us to copy and paste it all here for you? It's not hard to find information about Systema.

Maybe all your questions would not be answered by reading the official site, though I think your list would be trimmed down considerably if you did a little background research. The main characteristics are readily available on the site. The 120-pound woman question is too speculative. No-one can give you a decisive answer about that one. It is possible, yes, but no guarantees. We can't predict the future. Systema is aimed at practicality. It is used for Russian military operations, and also used by some North American law enforcement (though not too many, it's not widely known). It is for self-defense. Yet it is also a way of life. There are no belts, so there is no equivalent of black belt. Everyone progresses at a different pace. It takes as long as it takes to become proficient. To qualify as an instructor, you must be certified by our international director Vladimir Vasiliev or by his teacher Mikhail Ryabko, who resides in Russia. I believe, to become certified, you must go to Vlad's school in Toronto and train with him for about two weeks. That is just the end of the qualification process; it does not mean it takes only two weeks to qualify. There is more information about this on the official site. There is no military theme. It is a military combat system. This is not a theme; Systema is a living martial art that is used by Russian Special Forces and other military personnel. What makes it effective and efficient? You'd have to try it to find out. But again I refer you to the official site. About the cold, detached, and/or cocky demonstrators. I am not sure where you picked that up. We often smile, laugh, even joke around while training. Can you provide an example of cold, detached, or cocky demonstrators? There is a certain amount of professional coolness suggested. No mean faces, yelling, or anything that will telegraph intent. I have never seen this manifest as coldness but I haven't trained with every Systema student in the world. 

We shake hands, that is an act of mutual respect. We do not bow because bowing is not part of the Systema tradition. I think one person stated it best, though I cannot remember who: "Respect is given as it is earned." We respect each other and this is demonstrated by the way we interact with each other; bowing doesn't happen to be part of the way we express this respect. 

Check the official site if you are interested and then if you have additional questions, I am sure that there will be plenty of more knowledgabel people willing to answer.

Best wishes,
Rachel


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## Loki

RachelK said:
			
		

> Loki,
> 
> There is so much information available on Systema, most especially on the official North American site http://www.russianmartialart.com Why not just go read it rather than asking us to copy and paste it all here for you? It's not hard to find information about Systema.


 Because it doesn't contain some of the info I need, and combing through it rather than having a few knowledgable folks throw in a tidbit of information is easier. When someone posts on KM, I don't redirect to www.kravmaga.com, I write a post, the length of which depends on my patience.

  I'll sharpen my previous post and address what you wrote tomorrow, when it's not 1 AM. Stay tuned.


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## Ironman

Loki said:
			
		

> Because it doesn't contain some of the info I need, and combing through it rather than having a few knowledgable folks throw in a tidbit of information is easier. When someone posts on KM, I don't redirect to www.kravmaga.com, I write a post, the length of which depends on my patience.
> 
> I'll sharpen my previous post and address what you wrote tomorrow, when it's not 1 AM. Stay tuned.


     i agree with your point about posting knowlegeable info rather than jus redirection but i believe Rachel has give you a satisfactory answer, no? Moreover, many of the questions you ask have been discussed dozens and dozens of times and i would very much doubt people like to repeat themselves. Best thing to do is read up on some articles regarding the art and then ask specific questions (what is a solar plexuses punch? what is the ground work like? Are the punches really that painfull (yes) and who shot JFK?), here is a simple site that has a very nice set of articles and introductions (the sight is by Mark Hord, btw):
http://www.geocities.com/presuppositionalist/Systema/


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## Klondike93

> What are the main characteristics of Systema?


It's very soft, but very hard, it's what you need at the time in other words. Breathing and relaxing take an important role in Systema, but so do form and movement.



> Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?


Since it's not based on force I would say sure why not.



> How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?


Used by the military so I would think so. Practical, yes.



> How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?


With no tests or belts it would be up to the individual I suppose. I know being a black belt
does not insure abilty with in the particular art. Some are promoted no matter how bad, others 
are exceptional martial artists.


> What does it take to qualify as an instructor?


 Vlad or Mikhail saying your 
qualified to be an instructor. Those are the only 2 individuals that issue instructor certificates.



> What's the idea behind the military theme?


It's a military based system, art.



> What makes Systema effective/efficient?


Simplicity IMO. Keep It Simple Stupid works, no sense fighting yourself and an opponent.



> Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?


I've never noticed anyone being cold or detached, could you elaborate? Vlad and Mikhail both say to love your opponent, don't be angry
it causes too much tension.



> Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?


The occasional hug or handshake, but no bowing.

These answers are from my understanding of The System and others may be different.
 :supcool:


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## milosmalic

Loki said:
			
		

> Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?


Depends which woman, which man, circumstances. This is trick question, right?  I can't be sure that 120 pound man can take down 125 pound man with or without any martial art.

Precise answer would be: "Yes, because there are no rules, no restrictions, and everybody is free to utilize own attributes rather than reproduce canonic technique".



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?


Very much. Yes.



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?


For man A it might be 2 years, and for man B 20 won't be enough. But there is no way to obtain a belt-like rank by reproducing moves.



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> What does it take to qualify as an instructor?


So far I know 2 ways. The first one is to be reckognized by V.V. or M.R. The second way is that people keep asking you to teach them Systema.

I must say that I saw (video footage) of some lousy "certifieds" and some very good "not formally certified" instructors. 



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> What's the idea behind the military theme?


Living masters are/were military personnel. One period of Systema history is tightly connected to russian special operation units, Specnaz.



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> What makes Systema effective/efficient?


I'll try to describe in short. Systema contains elements of martial arts I had chance to learn before. As an extension to that, this art has completely different approach to teaching/learning. Creativity, fluidity, experimenting, discovering by following principles rather than repeating "trade mark moves"... After some time, Systema becomes your personal custom tailored Systema, adjusted to your height, weight, arm lenght, reflexes...



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?


They are calm not cold. In Systema there is annother approach to focus and "paying attention" than in most commong MA's.



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?


There are no rituals whatsoever. Man can bow, shake hands, smile politely, tap friends sholder, hug, laugh, make eyecontact or do nothing. It is metter of his own personality and culture. I like to shake hands and smile.


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## Jackal

> There are no rituals whatsoever. Man can bow, shake hands, smile politely, tap friends sholder, hug, laugh, make eyecontact or do nothing. It is metter of his own personality and culture. I like to shake hands and smile.



That was great. Thanks.
I have nothing to add; I was just moved to reply.


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## Loki

Sorry for the late response, it's been a busy week.

 Despite what some may think, I have looked into Systema, and still am. I'm not asking these questions to belittle the style, I want to know what I'm watching because I don't understand it. I've downloaded all the videos I could get, watched each one several times, and read a bunch of articles. I got some answers, but not all.

    I'll try to sharpen the questions I still have:



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> What are the main characteristics of Systema?


 What sets Systema apart from other styles? Creativity, improvisation, adjustability and other general adjectives can apply to any martial art. How does Systema innovate? What would a short summary of Systema look like?



> Can a 120 pound woman take down a 200 pound man with Systema?


 Bad question. I'll just say I'd be much more impressed to see a smaller guy (or woman) take down a musclebound man and not vice versa as I do see on videos. Vlad can definitely move, and I wouldn't want to try him myself, but I have a hard time seeing a person with much less experience (but not inexperienced) succeeding in doing the defenses he does. 



> How street-efficient is Systema? Is it aimed at practicality?


 A military system isn't automatically street-effective. Keep in mind that soldiers have rifles, keeping most of their combat ranged. Even special ops that do need hand-to-hand combat usually learn curriculum that's very different from what civilians learn. Krav Maga also started off military.



> How long does it take to reach the equivalent of a black belt?


 Got the answer I was looking for.



> What does it take to qualify as an instructor?


 Does this mean I can theoretically train for two months with Vlad, he'll like what he sees because I have a lot of experience in martial arts and catch on to Systema fast, and be certified an instructor?



> What's the idea behind the military theme?


 What military theme? Camouflage pants, military T-shirts ads on the site, dog tags, Spetsnaz logo patch... I see plenty a connection. I assume most people who train is Systema aren't Spetsnaz operatives or even members of the military. Why the intimate connection? I ask because my style also originated in the military.



> What makes Systema effective/efficient?


 Still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to this one. This relates to the main characteristics issue. Simplicity? It seems this isn't a universally agreed-upon term. A video I saw of defending against a stick shows the defender moving towards the attacker and away from the stick and guiding him slowly to the floor. I find it simpler to defend while bursting towards him and attacking, take control of the weapon, beat him senseless and take the weapon. My question stands.



> Why do all the people demonstrating always seem cold and detached, even somewhat cocky at times?


 There were several cases where I saw the person giving the example showing several signs of disinterest in his attackers: constant scratching of the nose, not looking at the opponent at all, keeping the hands down, playing with an attacker once having him in a lock, leaving the weapon in the attacker's hand, turning the back to an armed opponent(??). I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance.



> Are there any acts of mutual respect such as bowing?


  Question answered.

 One more thing I see is that it seems the attacker isn't really dedicated to his attack. For contrast, see Kevin and Brian's Kenpo clips in the Video Library.


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## Ironman

awright let me have a shot at some of your questions (caution: opinions not typical and may vary according to individuals  :ultracool ):


"Vlad can definitely move, and I wouldn't want to try him myself, but I have a hard time seeing a person with much less experience (but not inexperienced) succeeding in doing the defenses he does." 

.this is true, thats why no one does the exact same defenses as everyone elese. Since its not technique based system, imitation is not useful nor sucessful. This is aparent in the many videos out there, had i not been told the Systema MR does looks no where the same to the stuff done by Vlad nor Paul nor Sonny nor Brian...you get the point.

"Still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to this one. This relates to the main characteristics issue. Simplicity? It seems this isn't a universally agreed-upon term. A video I saw of defending against a stick shows the defender moving towards the attacker and away from the stick and guiding him slowly to the floor. I find it simpler to defend while bursting towards him and attacking, take control of the weapon, beat him senseless and take the weapon. My question stands."

.again the art is NOT based on technique, so simple to you might be complex to me, no matter what the physical aspect of it might be.   

"There were several cases where I saw the person giving the example showing several signs of disinterest in his attackers: constant scratching of the nose, not looking at the opponent at all, keeping the hands down, playing with an attacker once having him in a lock, leaving the weapon in the attacker's hand, turning the back to an armed opponent(??). I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance."

. The system teaches people NOT to fixate on the target but keep a "Soft focus", this is interpretted differenetly by many people but if it keeps you relaxed and soft then you can scratch anyware  :asian: . As for keeping the hands the down...well, do you walk around with your hands up? Its a reality System and people realistically don't walk around with their hands up (i know a few people that do but they have serious issues) ready to fight or protect their face or whatever. "I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance." well you could never really know that, lessen the person has told you, watch Vlad's face when he is "working" i almost always see a smile or a relaxed face, yet the job gets done.

"Despite what some may think, I have looked into Systema, and still am. I'm not asking these questions to belittle the style, I want to know what I'm watching because I don't understand it. I've downloaded all the videos I could get, watched each one several times, and read a bunch of articles. I got some answers, but not all."

. it helps to get a "feel" for it, so if there is a seminar or a practioner near by go check it out (i myself had the opportunity to try Krav Maga, a while back).

 :uhyeah:   hope i have helped...like i said i will aswer some of the question but i will leave the rest to the more experienced practioners.


----------



## Loki

Ironman said:
			
		

> .this is true, thats why no one does the exact same defenses as everyone elese. Since its not technique based system, imitation is not useful nor sucessful. This is aparent in the many videos out there, had i not been told the Systema MR does looks no where the same to the stuff done by Vlad nor Paul nor Sonny nor Brian...you get the point.


 If you're not supposed to imitate Vlad's moves, how does it work? While obviously the style has to fit your build and abilities, is there no similarity between one person's defense against an attack and another person's defense against the same attack?



> .again the art is NOT based on technique, so simple to you might be complex to me, no matter what the physical aspect of it might be.


  If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?



> The system teaches people NOT to fixate on the target but keep a "Soft focus", this is interpretted differenetly by many people but if it keeps you relaxed and soft then you can scratch anyware :asian: . As for keeping the hands the down...well, do you walk around with your hands up? Its a reality System and people realistically don't walk around with their hands up (i know a few people that do but they have serious issues) ready to fight or protect their face or whatever. "I got a general feel that the defender didn't credit his attacker with being threat, but rather a nuisance." well you could never really know that, lessen the person has told you, watch Vlad's face when he is "working" i almost always see a smile or a relaxed face, yet the job gets done.


  Admittedly walking around with your hands up is paralell to begging for hospitalization, keeping them down when attacked is leaving your upper body and head open. Looking at your attacker is being fixated, it's being alert. And you're correct in saying you can't really know unless you're told by the person doing the technique, but then again, there are other clues that can hint in the direction and allow to make an assessment. I haven't seen Vlad smile, but all I've seen are a few videos. Then again, no one else in the other videos has been smiling either.



> it helps to get a "feel" for it, so if there is a seminar or a practioner near by go check it out (i myself had the opportunity to try Krav Maga, a while back).


 I honestly wish I could attend a seminar, class or anything else, but such options are beyond me at the moment.


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## jellyman

"If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?"

principles and self-discovery

the instructor essenatially provides guidance and a critique.

There is the concept of good work and bad work. There is a good punch and a bad punch, for example. But there is no idea of 'These are THE good punches, the rest is bad'. Good and bad in this case, for example are determined by quality of effects, the payoff for energy expended, what happens to you if you  miss.


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## Mark Jakabcsin

Loki wrote: "If it's not based on technique then what is it based on?"

I believe this to be the crux of why you are having trouble understanding what is going on. Unfortunately words on a forum won't help very much. I have been training for a few years and I am constantly amazed that my understanding of what Systema is based on continues to grow and expand. Hence the only way to really understand Systema is to train, preferably with VV, MR, etc. However, as you said, that isn't an option for you at the moment so I will vainly try answer with words.

The shortest answer is that Systema is based on learning about humanity, yourself and others. That's it in a nut shell. While those that know, may smile and agree with that answer I am thinking it probably isn't all that helpful for you. I point this out to show the difficulty in discussing a topic that takes a long time to begin to understand.

Perhaps the best way to do this is to give a few simple examples: Grab your training partner, stand behind him placing both of your hands on the top of his head. He should stand straight up and resist as you press straight down. Notice how it takes very little energy for him to maintain his structure, heck he can probably carry your weight on top of his head. Now turn/tip his head slightly towards one side. Then press straight down while he trys to resist. Notice how he can't resist and it takes very little energy for you to push him down. This teaches each student the power of the skeleton and good form. Once our physical form is broken we lose an incredible amount of power for both delivering and receiving.

While this is a simple lesson it takes a long time to truly begin to grasp in the context of movement and life. Heck I saw this demo over 3 1/2 years ago and I'm still learning how to apply it and the strength found in proper physical form. Likewise learning how easy it is to move someone once their form is broken is key. Heck most people break their own form, meaning we only need to manipulate it. You see we are learning how the human body works on a very fundemental and basic level.

Let's stay with form in this post. Physical form is just one type of form contained in the human, there is also mental form and spiritual/emotional form. Learning how to maintain your form while learning to break anothers form is by and large what it's about. I know coming from more traditional arts this sounds odd or even fanciful but in reality it is exactly what the preconceived techniques are attempting to do. 

Techniques require the matching of preprogrammed responses to preconceived situations. Problem is this matching process is slow and reality rarely matches exactly causing the student to improvise. We simply skip to improvise because we accept what 'is' instead of looking for what we want it to be.

When you see VV scratching his nose he is working on his attackers mental and/or emtional form. Your observation of his action is very telling, he was breaking your form by making you feel disrespected. Whether you realize it or not you were sympathizing with the attacker as you watched. This pulls the attackers attention away from his attack and into an emotional realm that is likely to lead to foolish movement, i.e. breaking the physical form, etc.

One more example, ask your buddy to punch you in the face, give him a mean look by squinting your eyes, sneering, etc. As he punches step back so you don't get creamed. Do this a few times then ask him what he felt inside, how difficult was it to throw the punch, what emotions did he feel. Then do the same thing but this time lean forward, give him a big toothy smile, leave yourself vulnerable, open your eyes and maybe tell him you love him right before he punches. Ham this up as much as you can. See what happens and ask him how he felt inside. Again it takes constant training to take this knowledge from this level to the context of real movement and life.

Systema is a series of drills that encourage each student learn about themselves on a physical, mental and emotional level. All three are connected, learning to see and accept those connections in ourselves is paramount. As we learn about ourselves we are also learning about others, we see our weaknesses in others, which we can exploit if desired. Or when the opportunity presents it self we can help others to see and accept their weakness and improve. 

Please note that form is just one small part of the whole. I felt it was one of the eaiser ones to discuss on a basic level. There is so much more, so much more. As long as one stays open the learning never stops. 

Take care,
Mark J.


----------



## mscroggins

Great post.


----------



## Loki

Great post Mark, I'm getting a better idea of what Systema is. But still, a few more questions.

 How does biomechanical manipulation apply in high speed combat? I only see Vlad doing it. The rest are moving pretty slow, be they attacking or defending.

 If the style depends on principles and self-discovery, how are these applied? When the instructor says "let's work on stick defenses", what happens? Not everyone is supposed to do what the instructor does, so what do they do?

 I still disagree with the detachment idea. The illusion only lasts as long as you're not hit too badly, but what happens when someone lands a good strike? If you keep your hands down in order to maintain the superiority illusion, it's likely to fade faster.


----------



## Jerry

> How does biomechanical manipulation apply in high speed combat? I only see Vlad doing it. The rest are moving pretty slow, be they attacking or defending.


 Generally better than slowly. The exceptions seem to be when someone focuses only on the subtle. The problems I've seen at high speed with lower skill tend to come in controlling the damage to an opponent.



> I still disagree with the detachment idea. The illusion only lasts as long as you're not hit too badly, but what happens when someone lands a good strike? If you keep your hands down in order to maintain the superiority illusion, it's likely to fade faster.


 I'm not familiar with systema players keeping their hands down at that point... they've usually been too busy hitting / performaing manipulations. I've also not known them (combatively) to stand there and exchange blows like boxers (which is about the only circumstacne I can see your concern on hand position past the first swing).

That said, I'm very heavily influenced by other arts, and so will bow out of any more assertions about how pure systema players fight.


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## rutherford

I wouldn't be concerned about a Systema player's ability to take a heavy strike.  From what I've seen, the ability to take strikes is pretty fundamental.


----------



## Loki

Jerry said:
			
		

> Generally better than slowly. The exceptions seem to be when someone focuses only on the subtle. The problems I've seen at high speed with lower skill tend to come in controlling the damage to an opponent.


 Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos? Obviously you're not supposed to inherently know, but it would obviously make for a much more impressive demonstration.



> I'm not familiar with systema players keeping their hands down at that point... they've usually been too busy hitting / performaing manipulations. I've also not known them (combatively) to stand there and exchange blows like boxers (which is about the only circumstacne I can see your concern on hand position past the first swing).


 Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?


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## Mark Jakabcsin

Loki said:
			
		

> Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos?



Simple, because you are watching the tinest portion of Systema possible, i.e. Internet video clips. It would be like looking at a single moon rock, without ever having seen the moon but trying to describe it in full detail and understand all there is to know about the moon, but much harder. 



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.



Not to sound smarmy but this is the problem, you are downloading some videos and attempting to make generalizations about whole. Just like the three guys, the fence and the elephant. Your observations about only Vladimir doing this, that or the other thing are just ignorant. Since Vladimir is at the top of the food chain, of course most of the videos will contain him but that doesn't mean he's the only one that works a certain way. Although his work is much better than the rest. Likewise going fast isn't for learning it's for testing, what you know or what you think you know. Train slow, learn fast!



			
				Loki said:
			
		

> Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?



Your comment here is the perfect illustration of what I am trying to point out. This weekend I attended a mass attack seminar in Charlotte, NC that Vladimir taught. Systema is rather unique, as far as I know, with regard to multiple attackers and mass attacks. Drills such as #1 is on his back, 5 to 6 guys surround him and kick him. #1 learns how to move and survive. At first #1 doesn't move simple relaxes and tries to get comfortable with being kicked. He learns to breathe and face his fear. Next drill has him moving but not counter attacking, simply moving and surviving as best he can. Finally, #1 will start to work against the kickers. But if he gets held up for even a fraction of a second someone will be kicking him in the head, kidney, etc. Similar drills standing up. Plus mass drills, 35-40 people all slugging it out in an every man for him self environment. Or a nice twist, put 6 or so bodies on the ground and let everyone slug it out with these obstacles. Also a good bout of mass wrestling is good for the heart. Note we also strike while wrestling on the ground.

The point is .......well to put it bluntly you simply can't watch a few video clips on the Internet and have even the slightest clue. Unfortunately your not in a position to experience first hand and that's a shame. While I can feel your heart felt interest many of your questions and obervastions are just so far of the mark it's not really worth answering. Without you making the effort to learn more first, you will simply see what you want to see. Example: your comments about Systema teaching to keep their hands down is just plan silly and wrong. Remember all that scratching you found to be cold? Where were the hands then? 

Suggestion: If you are truly interested in learning a little more, without traveling, you will need to buy copies of Vladimir's DVD's. I suggest you start with the three newest ones since those are presented in a class-like format. Note, this won't answer all of your questions but it will give you a few grains of insight. Take care and best of luck.

Mark J.


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## jellyman

> hen why doesn't anyone do it in the videos?



This one shows someone else doing it in a pretty vigourous manner. Lots of 'biomech'.

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/strikes vv.wmv


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## NYCRonin

ONE OF THE BETTER RECENT THREADS HERE!

I am enjoying reading this cyber-thread, alot. just wanted to mention that you all are sharing so well in the community of open hearted seeking of martial knowledge. Thats what Mr. Hubbard must have hoped for when MTalk was born.

Now, I take my drink and chair to the sidelines (for now) -- I wopuld like to see where the thread twists to.

Namaste!
RobG


OOOOPPPSSS! A short note done publickly - I have recieved a few requests for copies of videos produced by VV and others - and I wanna say - NO. Because the producers of the vids  - well, deserve to get paid..IMHO. I dont do napster either. Looky here - yeah, ya might not have the bux to buy certain tapes, presently. Errrrr, I can only do so - because I got off my lazy *** and got a job.....stop feeling sorry fer yerself. My kids are in late teens and already are saving $$$   for their university. PLEASE...dont ask me to download vid content that costs about 30 bux ---- the ons who shared the vid with us, for a price - have kids to feed also. Respect their personal power to produce a vid and offer it -- respect...give em their propers. Ya wann have a vid --- hmmmmmmmm. Well, in NYC there is a recyling law. A 30 bux vid =  what? How many empty bottles does one have to recycle to earn $30? 
PUT DOWN THE FRICKIN GAMEBOY ---- and recycle the bottles and EARN the knowledge you seek. 

When this old man was a child - I walked the streets to get firewood to start the coal furnace that kept my family warm at night. Dont tell me your too challenged by time to just collect bottles to fuel your fire! I have zero sympathy for you - if you dare say so.

EARN what you wish to learn!
You will be a better person for the effort --- trust in that.

I now leave and want to read more of the thread here -- I am sorry for a brief hijacking.


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## Jerry

> Then why doesn't anyone do it in the videos? Obviously you're not supposed to inherently know, but it would obviously make for a much more impressive demonstration.


 I'm not sure it would be a more impressive demonstration; other than the opponent flying much faster. You wouldn't generally be able to make out what had happened. 



> Download some videos, you'll see what I'm talking about.


 You are seeing them at play... in an ongoing drill. Fights look different, but are short. I would suggest getting a few of the videos or (better) going down and playing with some systema guys to get a better idea.



> Assuming the first combo ends the fight, you're right. But if it doesn't? Multiple attackers?


 There are not "combos". My point is that once the swinging has started, you are not going to see the systema player keeo his hands at his sides (which is your worry). There's an ongoing fight until the fight is over, whether that's right away or after a bit.

Systema actually trains very havily in mass-attack. There are some arts with more sophistication at it (Bagua comes to mind), but their multiple attacker work is generally very well defines and very integrated into their basic fighting system.

The problem with most of the downloadable vids are:
- You are watching systema-v-systema.
- It's slowed down for safety and so that it can be viewed in a useful manner
- It's drill work.


----------



## RachelK

I just want to commend you all for answering Loki's questions, as I think you are doing a fine job, particularly Mark J. I am learning a lot from this thread, so a big thank-you to everyone.

I am a relative newcomer to Systema so I won't add to the topic at hand, except to agree with everyone else that it's easier to understand Systema when you can experience it. If that's not feasible, maybe you just have to say to yourself, "This stuff is a bit mysterious to me, but I will eventually have a chance to experience it and then I will understand it a lot better." I am sure that eventually a Systema seminar or instructor will arrive in your area, or maybe you will travel to a part of the world where Systema classes are held. If you truly desire to learn about Systema (as it seems from your posts), then you will find a way to train with an instructor, maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen someday, I assure you. 

I've noticed with other teachers, in my MS courses, for example, on the first day of class, we often have an overview of everything we are going to learn in the coming semester. And usually one or two students ask the teacher to explain something that is in Chapter 9. And the teacher will reply, "Have patience, we'll get to it." The teacher is not asking the student to forget about learning the material in Chapter 9, but only to build a foundation for understanding first before trying to understand everything at once. For example, Mark's description of a basic Systema exercise is one idea for building this foundation of understanding. There are also some exercises on Paul Genge's Web site (http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/page6.html), and some excellent articles on the Systema UK Web site (http://www.systemauk.com/articles.htm). But some of these principles can be confusing to everyone when viewed in the abstract, yet so much easier to understand when there is a physical frame of reference. Why not get together with a friend, try some of the exercises, discuss them a bit to get each other's perspective, and then post about your experience? Although training with an instructor is probably the easiest way to learn Systema, you can practice on your own or with a friend, even if you have no previous experience, by using some of the articles, descriptions of exercises, videos, and even clips that are available on the Web. Then you can post questions on this forum that relate to your specific experiences, and knowledgeable people can reply with specific suggestions for you to try next time you practice those same exercises. 

That's just one idea for learning about Systema when it's not possible to train with an instructor. I've suggested it because I know that other students without instructors are learning about Systema in this way, so maybe it could work for you, too.

As far as the military theme, the confusion is probably just due to semantics. To me, a martial art with a military theme is different than a military system. Computer programmers describe this distinction as "has-a" versus "is-a." For example, my apartment has a Western theme. There's a deer skull over the fireplace, a Navajo rug on the floor, and I've hung a pair of spurs, a whip, and a flat-brimmed hat on the wall for decoration. But if I were to visit a bunkhouse at a working cattle ranch and see the latter three items hanging on the wall, it would not be accurate to say the bunkhouse has a Western theme. I would not point to these items and say to the cowboy, "I like your decorations," as he'd probably laugh and say, "Those are not decorations, but the tools I need to do my job." As I mentioned, it's just semantics, and the word "theme" probably means something different to you than it does to me, since I do tend to go with the literal interpretation. 

I can tell you about the pants, though, because when I started Systema training, I thought I'd never wear camos. I trained in sweatpants or yoga pants. But they are so baggy, the pants were actually impeding my movement. I suppose I might have worn leggings or exercise tights, but I feel those are just the opposite: too tight and restrictive. One day we needed to wear camos for our class photograph, and so I caved and bought a pair. After training in them, I realized that they actually work well for class: not too tight, not too loose. However, some students train in jeans, kung-fu pants, even dress slacks. There is no uniform, but it just so happens that the BDUs work well for Systema training. They don't have to be camoflauge, though, a lot of students just wear plain cargos. But I won't deny that the camoflauge is also a tribute to Systema's military background, and to our top instructors, who both have distinguished military careers. 

If you find a friend with whom you can experiment with some of the basic Systema exercises, I hope you will return and post about it, as I think many of us enjoy reading about these experiences.

Best wishes,
Rachel


----------



## Brad S.

> Systema actually trains very havily in mass-attack. There are some arts with more sophistication at it (Bagua comes to mind), but their multiple attacker work is generally very well defines and very integrated into their basic fighting system.


 Having just been at a 2-day instensive on RMA Mass Attack work and having dabbled a bit in Bagua and other Chinese internal arts I am curious as to how they are more sophisticated when it comes to mass attacks, if I am reading the post correctly. (I was never exposed to this in those arts in the time I trained them). 

   Thanks.


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## Jerry

Brad S. said:
			
		

> Having just been at a 2-day instensive on RMA Mass Attack work and having dabbled a bit in Bagua and other Chinese internal arts I am curious as to how they are more sophisticated when it comes to mass attacks, if I am reading the post correctly. (I was never exposed to this in those arts in the time I trained them).


 "More preemptive" might be a more apt description.. though I'm not sure how much I could describe it in a post.


----------



## Loki

While I admit watching videos isn't the best way to learn how Systema works, like I said, it's the only way I've got. I don't consider a $30 DVD to at the top of my priority list, especially when I'm in the process of buying a car and saving up for academic studies, so I'm getting all the visual material I can off the net and, as for context, hope you guys can help me with that. You're right when you say you can't describe the moon in full detail with a view of a moon rock alone, but then again you don't have to be an astronomer to get a general idea of it. A few pictures and an encyclopedia entry are usually good enough.

 I've seen videos of others, not only Vlad, and if I can be directed to videos of other practitioners, that'd be more than welcome. Videos of MT members would be especially appreciated.

 As for mass attacks: How do you get comfortable with getting kicked? After a few well-placed kicks, yo're down for the count. I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain, but as part of a one VS several fight? To what end? And attacks with 35-40 people are brawls. If your goal is self-defense, it's best to bob, weave and run out the door.

 If I saw what I wanted to see, I wouldn't be asking you these questions. I'd have watched the videos and made my generalizations. I wouldn't search for more information or discuss what I know with others. So even if that's what you think, I think my actions give me the benefit of the doubt. And you if you think that because I'm far off the mark I'm not worth answering, then maybe you confuse my lack of knowledge for lack of willingness to pursue it, in which case it's you who's seeing what you want to see.
  And as for the nose scratching, it always came after the guy was down.

  Jellyman, I saw the video. Maybe we have different definitions of biomecanical manipulation. All I saw was absorption work.

 Rachel, what you say about the military theme seems to answer your definition of a theme, since the camo pants don't seem to serve a practical purpose, but hey, if it's comfortable, that's what matters most. And if you're already using cargos, I guess there's no problem with a camo design.

 If someone would be kind enough to make the effort to describe a Systema drill I could practice with a friend, I'd be most thankful. Experience is the best teacher after all.


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## Jerry

> I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain, but as part of a one VS several fight?


 That would be a mistake on your part. The absorbtion drills are not about getting used to pain. When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.



> To what end? And attacks with 35-40 people are brawls. If your goal is self-defense, it's best to bob, weave and run out the door.


 Bob-and-weave is less effective in a mas attack than you might think. You can accomplish more with bigger movements as the situation is far more chaotic. Bob and weave might move you right into a hit.



> Rachel, what you say about the military theme seems to answer your definition of a theme, since the camo pants don't seem to serve a practical purpose, but hey, if it's comfortable, that's what matters most. And if you're already using cargos, I guess there's no problem with a camo design.


 Cargo pants and BDUs are very different materials. I imagine BDUs are the norm as it's what millitary personel are generally wearing.


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## Loki

Jerry said:
			
		

> That would be a mistake on your part. The absorbtion drills are not about getting used to pain. When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.


 The bob-and-weave thing was a joke. I meant that in a brawl, you get the hell outta there.


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## Jerry

Loki said:
			
		

> The bob-and-weave thing was a joke. I meant that in a brawl, you get the hell outta there.


 Ahh. Sorry I missed it. Yes, I agree. Ideally: get out *before* the brawl erupts. I'm all about avoidance


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## arnisador

Jerry said:
			
		

> When you move correctly, the hits don't hurt.


 This is a really strong statement. I have trouble accepting it.


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## Jerry

Grab a decent systema guy and do the drill. See if the hits hurt you. Ask if the hits hurt him. (though the hits hurting you question is basically to answer "are they hard hits"). The way that one typically learns to move is to change until it stops hurting. The pain tells you that you are doing it wrong.

I'm not sure what's all that strong about the statement. Perhaps you are reading more than I am saying?


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## arnisador

Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.


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## Jerry

arnisador said:
			
		

> Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.


 I think I understand your confusion: we are in a different context.

When it was said
"I can understand getting comfortable as part of an absorption drill, attempting to get used to the pain"

I responded based on the absorption drill (you seem to have understood me as saying that no hits in a mass-fight would hurt). The strikes being traded in the drill should not hurt (assuming that you are absorbing correctly, of course the person striking is improving his ability to impart power, so it's something of an arms race). Actually, I suppose they should hut as that's the tool you use to improve your ability to take the hit (tryign to make them not hurt).

That said, the same attributes that teach you to take those hits and not hurt ideally apply in any fight (including a mass attack). So less hits should hurt and they should hurt less than if you did not; but I'd never dream of making a generalized "you won't get hurt" statement over an actual fight... particularly such a melee. It is indeed more than a little likely that someone will land something that hurts.

Is there a similarity to iron shirt stuff? I'm sure. Just as there are some similarities to why bronco riders don't get hurt by the same hits as most people. The body certainly can learn to absorb punishment without pain and without injury to a degree better than "average". There is, of course, no such thing as invunerable.


----------



## Murphy

arnisador said:
			
		

> Maybe. The statement "the hits don't hurt" sounds like an Iron Shirt Chi Kung idea: When people strike you, you feel no pain. I understand you're speaking of moving and not just standing there taking a strike, but the context is a mob attack...sooner or later someone is going to land a punch on the jaw, and it's gonna hurt, it seems to me.


 


Of course when you are fighting multiple attackers, you will get hit. There is no getting away from taking painful punches and strikes, in any art. Systema does have some interesting ways to train it though. ​




In class we used to do push drills in groups. Everyone participating in the class would move in a chaotic fashion, pushing each other and yeilding accordingly. You were never static, being pushed aside once, then hit with a palm as your turning, etc. As time progressed, we'd move to punches (which includes delivering, evading, and yeilding all at once.)
I learned the most important factor in absorbtion with systema (or any art) is yeilding and rotating in the direction of the strike itself. When a punch lands on a systema player, they yeild to the force in the direction it's coming. There are lots of possibilites for redirection or retaliation after all the force from the strike has been neutralized. 

​After taking a hard hit from someone in systema, you learn to relax the area through breathing "through the skin" and moving your awareness. Lasting pain is caused by tension in your muscles, so you relax to take it away (of course this excludes the instance when you are hit with bone by another hard object). It's an invaluable skill. There are many more factors that go into blow absorbtion also, like internal pressure, planes of resistance in muscles, etc, but I think thats enough for now.​




- Murphy


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## Loki

Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.

 And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?


----------



## Murphy

Loki said:
			
		

> Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.
> 
> And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?


Yes, they contract automatically, but they stay contracted which causes prolonged pain. We relax it after the contraction so the pain dissipates. Good to clear that up.

You can't always ' get out of there '. If you're stuck in the middle of a mob or in a confined space, you have to learn to stack people on each other, absorb simultanious strikes, yeild to pressure, and strike others yourself. 
Preparing for the worst of situations.

If all you want to practice is running away, you should pick up track.


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## Loki

Murphy said:
			
		

> Yes, they contract automatically, but they stay contracted which causes prolonged pain. We relax it after the contraction so the pain dissipates. Good to clear that up.


 Just want to make sure we have: Muscles contract involuntarily after being struck and decontract when the lactic acids have been "drained" from the muscle. This decontraction process occurs by itself, relaxing simply makes it easier to bear and makes sure you don't prolong the process unnecessarily. Then again, sometimes tensing your muscles allows you to prevent it from auto-contracting in the first place...



> You can't always ' get out of there '. If you're stuck in the middle of a mob or in a confined space, you have to learn to stack people on each other, absorb simultanious strikes, yeild to pressure, and strike others yourself.
> Preparing for the worst of situations.
> 
> If all you want to practice is running away, you should pick up track.


 Then you defend as best as possible and move outwards, striking as the need arises, and then run.
 All I want from brawls is running away. It's one of those situations where a fight can be avoided, since it's a barbaric free-for-all. People probably won't be hunting you down in it, so just get out.


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## jellyman

Simply put - if you breath correctly you relax. If you relax, the shockwave from blows to the body will travel through you, and not wind you. Obviously there is a matter of degree - some will be better and take harder blows than others.

Take a piece of wood, about 2 feet long. Throw it in mid-air, and if you are good, you can break it with a strike.

Take a length of hose, a rope, or a chain about 2 feet long. Throw it in mid-air, and it will be much much harder for you to beak it with a strike.

Our bodies are like irregular chains of bones sheathed in muscle. Tense the muscles, we become more like sticks. Relax the muscles, we become more like the rope.

Progressively learn to relax those muscles on impact reflexively, and you will become relaxed on impact. Actually, you may find yourself somewhat enjoying it.

We (at Vlad's) also do the same sort of training for hooks to the jaw. By relaxing, the punches shockwave can be disippated through the body, as a wave. We have a specific head movement to help this. If you cannot accept being hit, your neck will be stiff, and yuo cannot take so hard a hit. The more you get better at relaxing on the hit, the harder a punch you can take. Straight up the pipe punches are harder to absorb, but we (I - I can't really speak for everyone, although it's tempting, but many do this) tend to hide the center line with footwork. That said, I can ride out a pretty good punch on the beezer.

I am speaking from experience here. This is how you work your way up to hard contact without benefit of padding. This is how you learn what a real hit feels like so you don't get surprised when someone hits you.

The benefits of mass fighting are many. You overcome fear of contact. Getting hit becomes impersonal, so you no longer get mad at someone for hitting you - he/she meant nothing personal. You learn to avoid drawing strikes by blending in. You learn to defend strikes from many angles. You learn to be aware. You learn to be relaxed under pressure. It goes on and on.

You can argue about the effectiveness of absorption training all day, it will mean nothing. You can only verify the truth of this by doing, and training, under someone who can do this, and can show you how. 


We do not advocate fighting if you don't have to , but you must prepare. Otherwise, why spar, why wrestle, why do grab-escapes, why train MA at all? Just focus on track and field.


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## jellyman

I should add that you are also being taught how to move body parts so you can absorb in specific manners/ directions. A bit like electric boogaloo.


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## jellyman

Another PS

I went to Moscow in 2000 and asked Mikhail Ryabko (most senior person in systema today) to show me how to absorb strikes. As part of it he hit me very hard in the solar plexus, causing my stomache to cramp. Using breathing techniques much like lamaze, under his direction, I learned to breath away the pain. This skill came in very useful later on.


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## jellyman

> Maybe we have different definitions of biomecanical manipulation. All I saw was absorption work.



The takedowns and armbars and the like seemed pretty biomechanical to me.

Absorption generally refers to taking strikes. No strikes in that clip, although there is one with that as well.


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## arnisador

Thanks *Jerry* and *Murphy*. I better understand your point now.


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## Jerry

> Well-struck muscles contract involuntarily, relaxed as you may be.


 Can you support this claim?




> And I still fail to see the point of mob drills. Your goal is self-defense, right? Why stay and duke it out when you can get out of there?


 Combatively? You generally don't duke it out if there's a better option. How are you going to learn the skills to survive moving through that crowd? It seems that getting into a crowd all duking it out in drill is a better way then most to learn how to survive being in a crowd duking it out.



> Just want to make sure we have: Muscles contract involuntarily after being struck and decontract when the lactic acids have been "drained" from the muscle. This decontraction process occurs by itself, relaxing simply makes it easier to bear and makes sure you don't prolong the process unnecessarily. Then again, sometimes tensing your muscles allows you to prevent it from auto-contracting in the first place...


 This is inconsistant with experieence doing something as basic as hitting a bag. Fatigue forces tense muscles to relax even though lactic acid is *building*



> Then you defend as best as possible and move outwards, striking as the need arises, and then run.


 And you practice that skill how?


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## Loki

Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?

 As far as the whole "moving-with-the-blow" idea, I'll give it a shot.

 From my experience, if you tense a muscle before it's struck, it doesn't hurt as much as if it's relaxed and struck. Do you tense your abs before receiving a blow? If not, there go your instestines.

 As for the issue of running away, this brings me back to my first point. Obviously we train to defend ourselves in situations where we can't run away,  but is a brawl one of those? As opposed to fighting one or several, brawls are, like jellyman said, indiscriminate. No one's after you specifically. Why not move out? This is what I mean in my first paragraph: does Systema see a brawl as a situation similar to being attacked with a knife, where you have to neutralize the situation and come out on top?

 Breathing to make the pain go away: I know exactly what you mean. I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.

 Jerry,
 On the issue of muscle contraction: I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt and try getting kicked to the quadriceps (hard) while contracting and while not contracting beforehand. I had my brother kick my leg while I contract the quads, then kick the other one (for a fresh start) while I didn't. Here are my findings:

 Left quads (contracted):
 Upon impact, there was some further contraction and some pain.

 Right quads (uncontracted):
 Upon impact, slightly less contraction than left quads and noticeably more pain.

 As for the issue of fatigue and contraction, I honestly don't know. I'll look into it and get back to you.

 I don't practice these skills. I practice others which can be applied to this situations.

 Last note, the biomechanical manipulation. I watched the video again and couldn't for the life of me find any manipulation. Not a single armbar. I saw one takedown that didn't seem to be caused by sheer force, but then again, it didn't seem like the result of manipulation either. Maybe I missed something in chaos at the end?


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## jellyman

bloody hell, I posted the wrong url!

let's try that again

http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalog/video/clips/wrestling D.F. 1.wmv



> I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.



The two skills are not mutually exclusive. We train to be proficcient in many things.

Regards tensing the stomache muscles - you'll be surprised, but it hurts more that way. With relaxed stomach, if you know the breathing method for getting hit (before you get winded) much less damage/pain.


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## Mark Jakabcsin

Loki said:
			
		

> Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loki (is that your real first name) why does it have to be an either or scenario? There's no telling what the future will bring for each of us so why not train to make yourself as proficient in as many environments and situations as possible? There are a large number of benefits to training in mass attacks that carry over into any type of self defense, hence dissecting it doesn't do much good, just do the work. Not to mention that during a mass attack training seminar there are numerous drills that place 'you' against 4, 5, 6 or more people all of whom are focused solely on you. This of course has obvious training value.
> 
> Systema drills are designed to challenge and to help each student explore the possibilities of motion. One of my favorite drills is to stand on one leg as multiple attackers slash and stab with a knife. Sure, if this was real I would simply put my other foot down but this is training hence we make it as difficult as possible.
> 
> Lastly, many of the people that train in Systema are professionals and simply running away from a mass brawl isn't an option. Police officers, prison guards, etc. are the ones called in to deal with the situation. Take care and best of luck.
> 
> Mark J.
> 
> ps. As for being punched in the stomach will tensing or relaxing you will have to try it with an experienced Systema striker to appreciate it.
Click to expand...


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## Mark Jakabcsin

duplicate


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## Jerry

> Let me get something clear: Does Systema use mass-fighting situations as a drill to improve the aforementioned benefits (which can incidently be useful in a brawl situation), or does it use them as a preparation for a brawl situation that Systema considers likely?


 For me, and in my experience: You may end up in a situation where there's a lot of opponents in a crowd. You should have skills to fight if you are forced to in that situation. 

For example, I work sometimes as a mounted police officer. I've watched mass melee show up. On a 1800lb animal (and with others), this isn't much of a problem for the mounted unit (unless weapons come out), but we've more than once gone in to recover a tactical unit that just ended up encircled.



> From my experience, if you tense a muscle before it's struck, it doesn't hurt as much as if it's relaxed and struck. Do you tense your abs before receiving a blow? If not, there go your instestines.


 I know the experience you are discussing. The problem is that it's not as simple as either answer. I appriciate greatly that you are giving it a try, but what you should actually try is to find someone who does the other way (such as a Systema guy) and learn it directly. It doesn't take long to get the idea.

I'm not aware of any way I could describe what systema does in a manner that would let you repeat it and try it without feedback from someone already experienced with it.



> Breathing to make the pain go away: I know exactly what you mean. I find it helpful myself, though I'd try to focus on avoid getting hit in the first place rather than emphasize dealing with pain over avoiding it.


 Do you box?

I know you tried the "contracted/not contracted". Try this against light/medium hits (works well with gut shots). When the hit is about to come, contract your abdomen (lungs full or empty, doesn't matter, but don't exhale when you do). Now try the same thing but give a sharp exhale as you contract your abdomen (this should be how a boxing instructor trains you to take a body blow). 

That's somewhat analogous. It's not that yuo take the pain better, it's that it hurts less. Yes, in this case, there's a contraction; but I'm acutally pointing at the advantage that breathing gives.


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## Jerry

> Regards tensing the stomache muscles - you'll be surprised, but it hurts more that way. With relaxed stomach, if you know the breathing method for getting hit (before you get winded) much less damage/pain.


 Yes and no. If I went to a boxer and just had them relax (not tense) when hit in the gut, it would hurt them more. There is more to what's being done than just relaxation (especially localized relaxation). 

Among other things, if you relax the part that is hit, and not the rest of the chain, all the force will travel together until it hits the unrelaxed part and then the relaxed part will be smushed.


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## jellyman

Yeah, what happens to the gut on impact is hard to describe.

I just know I don't consciously tense the stomache.


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## Murphy

arnisador said:
			
		

> Thanks *Jerry* and *Murphy*. I better understand your point now.


Happy to help.


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