# Electronic Hogu Hurting Taekwondo by GM Young In CHEON



## puunui (Apr 13, 2011)

Forwarding from Grandmaster Young In Cheon.


*****

I have written an article about my feelings of the electronic hogus in
korean  that is being published on Mookas.com.  The article is fairly long
and will  be posted in 3 sections.  Unfortunately, my english is not good and
it is in  korean only but my student Phillip Yun has translated first part.
If you  would like the korean version I can email it to you the pdf.  Please
send  request to yictkd@gmail.com


March 24,  2011

The use of Electronic Body Protector in the Olympic can be the end  of
Taekwondo as we know it. I was inspired by the recent mistakes made  by
lajust during the Korean Olympic Team trials to write this article. I  have
witnessed many faults of... the EBP in tournaments other than the  Korean
National Trials.

I have written numerous articles against the  EBP, but they had not been
published. I wish to publicize the numerous  problems that the EBP holds to
the Taekwondo community.

The consensus  regarding the EBP is that it is necessary to prevent bias and
corruption of  the referees, but I beg to differ:
First, I believe that the partiality of  the scoring in matches has not
improved since the introduction of the  EBP.
I see the EBP as more of a scapegoat for the faults of the referees.  In
addition, I feel that the techniques in Taekwondo have deteriorated  by
trying to comply with the new style that the EBP has created for  Taekwondo.

For example, the EBP is available for use for children older  than 8. It is
obviously unfitting that a mere child, on which even a regular  chest
protector would be considered heavy, is wearing an EBP, which  is
significantly heavier than the regular chest protector.
The cost is  certainly another issue to be considered. The entire set costs
thousands of  dollars, and yet, a personal EBP is not allowed for use for
competitions.  Thus, a competitor would have to pay $45 for the sensor socks,
$20 for the  EBP rental fee and the competition registration fee.

Second, has the  scoring become more accurate and fair since the introduction
of the EBP? This  device only detects kicks to the body, which is a miniscule
portion of  Taekwondo Sparring Techniques. The majority of the scoring is
still done by  referees, such as turning kicks, head kicks, punches and
warnings.

I  believe that the EBP has not performed even 50% up to its  expectations.
Rather, it has reversed the improvements in techniques of  Taekwondo with its
inadequate capabilities. It is truly peculiar to see that  such a strange
technique would register as a point, which sometimes would  determine the
champion of Taekwondo.

Some might even start calling  Taekwondo foot fencing. There are obvious
differences between fencing and  Taekwondo. Electronic systems in fencing is
justified by the fact that,  unlike the kicks in Taekwondo, the movements in
fencing are so fast to the  point where a valid point is hardly detectable to
the human eye. The  electronic scoring system, however, serves a different
purpose for Taekwondo.  Instead of performing duties that humans cant, it is
merely acting as an  impartial medium.

The judges are still responsible for 80% of the calls  made during a match.
Simply pinning the responsibility for erroneous calls on  a scapegoat (EBP)
will definitely not solve the problem of corruption and  bias.

Of course, the blemished reputation of the partiality of taekwondo  has been
caused by only a small minority of corrupt referees. I happen to  know that
the remaining majority of referees dedicate their utmost judgment  and
passion to be fair as possible. I propose that the judges be evaluated  by
their performance regarding the fairness and accuracy of each  match.

I had spoken to a representative of an EBP company regarding the  necessity
of EBP in Taekwondo, but he simply digressed after stating that  improvements
are constantly being made through research. I am disturbed by  the very
notion that Taekwondo is being used as a business for these  companies. If
any of these companies were to seriously damage the reputation  and ideals of
Taekwondo, whos to blame but ourselves?

Why is it that  boxing, baseball, soccer and other sports prefer humans over
electronic  systems? Erroneous decisions are simply a natural aspect of a
sport, which  contributes to the excitement of Taekwondo.

Part 2 & 3 to be  continued...

Written by:  Master Young In Cheon
2000 USA Olympic Team  Head Coach
1990-2002 US National Team Coach , Collegiate Team  Coach


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 13, 2011)

Im curious, how come turning kicks are still scored by the referee? Does the sensor not pick them up? Also, what percentage of all points scored in sport tkd come from punches? Im not criticising the sport side, Im just curious because he said  that they only pick up kicks to the body which makes up a miniscule part of the sparring, yet from what Ive seen (which is very little) it seems the majority of points come from a kick to the hogu. I rarely see a punch scored and dont see a lot of head kicks in comparison to kicks to the hogu. Again, Ive seen very little sport tkd so please enlighten me as Im a little confused.


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## terryl965 (Apr 13, 2011)

WOW you beat me to it, I simply agree Lajust is not the system for competition right now. We need something that is lighter and is really for the athlete as a whole.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I simply agree Lajust is not the system for competition right now. We need something that is lighter and is really for the athlete as a whole.




Plain and simple, nice idea, but it does not work like it is supposed to, especially LaJust. And it's expensive to boot.


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## ATC (Apr 14, 2011)

Turn kicks are scored by the epp system, only the extra point is given by the judge. So it a back kick lands the system will score it but the judges have to also score it to give the extra point. If the point is not scored by the judges then the center ref will stop the match to add the extra point.

Just curious, is the Phillip Yun you state is your student the same Phillip Yun that is training with Master Singer from WTC? Just asking.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

ATC said:


> Just curious, is the Phillip Yun you state is your student the same Phillip Yun that is training with Master Singer from WTC? Just asking.




I think it is the same person. Both are listed here:

http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun


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## ATC (Apr 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think it is the same person. Both are listed here:
> 
> http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun


 
Ok, yes that is the Phillip I know also. Good fighter. He is good friends with my Sabumnim. He has trained with us quite a few times.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 14, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im curious, how come turning kicks are still scored by the referee? Does the sensor not pick them up? Also, what percentage of all points scored in sport tkd come from punches? Im not criticising the sport side, Im just curious because he said that they only pick up kicks to the body which makes up a miniscule part of the sparring, yet from what Ive seen (which is very little) it seems the majority of points come from a kick to the hogu. I rarely see a punch scored and dont see a lot of head kicks in comparison to kicks to the hogu. Again, Ive seen very little sport tkd so please enlighten me as Im a little confused.


 
By turning kick he means spin kick such as back kick--the sensors can't tell whether you threw a back kick or a side kick as the contact is with same surface.

A small but increasing percentage of points are coming from punches, in part because they are scored by the judges whose only job under the EBP system is scoring punches, turning kicks, and head kicks. The EBP has also hugely increased kicks to the head because kicks to the hogu score much less consistently, and are worth 1 pt vs the 3 pts for a head kick. I've seen matches with more than a dozen kicks to the hogu with none scoring, and it's not uncommon. The EBP system causes athletes to adapt in ways that, as mentioned above, are not necessarily good Taekwondo.

Carl


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## Manny (Apr 14, 2011)

I am a little skeptical about the Lajust and other EBP hogus, I am not saying they are bad but good either, in my days we use the scoring sheets and they always worked, 4 corner judges plus the central judge, offcourse they were controversials some times but even in amateur boxing (olimpic) there is controverse too once in a while.

I higly respect the tkd competitors however I don't like competition too much, I like to see it but don't like to compete, my TKD is more a Martial Art than a sport.

I can't wait the next parts of this writtings about the EBP.

Manny


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## mango.man (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is part 2 of GM YIC's article:

(2nd part of my article on electronic hogu translated by Phillip Yun)

It is no mystery why Adidas has seized R&D on Electronic Body Protectors. Adidas in no way lacks in technological support and it has the potential to develop a flawless EBP for Taekwondo. Surely, it has determined that EBP is not a necessary component for the sport and definitely not a fiscally profitable approach.

I urge all leaders of Taekwondo to come to your senses! How can you call yourselves professors and coaches of Taekwondo while overlooking an issue that requires an urgent solution?

I have heard testimonials by users of EBP, stating that they bought the EBP system after knowing that they have closed a 4-year contract with USAT. Not only did the customer have to return the product numerous times for its defects, but had to pay for the costly shipping fees as well.

It is becoming evident that Taekwondo is evolving into a sport for the wealthy- the EBP companies require that the competitors pay twenty dollars for renting the EBP. This does not help the fact that the athletes already have financial burdens, such as travelling, housing and registration expenses. Every time a new chest protector becomes WTF approved, everyone will be coerced into the costly switch. As result, the number of global taekwondo practitioners will decrease. 

I have personally taken a team from the US to the Russian Junior Open. I was quite impressed and astonished by the passion and intensity that a Taekwondo tournament had possessed in Russia. However, I was shocked to find that a pair of EBP sensor socks was being sold at 75 dollars. Although this may not seem like much to a US citizen, some foreign government officials would receive 300 dollars as their yearly salary. Such prices cannot possibly appeal to those under difficult financial situations. During the Asian games, I have read an interview of a coach of an unnamed developing country. He stated that the athletes first fight at the tournament was their very first encounter with the EBP, due to the unaffordable prices.

Similar issues have been heartwarmingly resolved in the past. During the world cup, the Korean players could have worn red uniforms, but wore white uniforms instead. The color red is not only a representative color of Korea, but was a befitting opposing color of blue, which was the color of the opposing teams uniform. However, many developing countries could not afford to watch the broadcast in color television, so they could not differentiate dark colors such as red and blue. The credit for todays popularity and success of soccer are rightfully given to its care for the financially difficult demographics.

When I went to Korea for Korea Open, I spoke to numerous reporters about issues regarding the EBP. I had even predicted a possible mishap during the upcoming Asian Games at the time. As we all know, a Taiwanese athlete was disqualified during a match at the Asian Games due to a controversial issue regarding the legitimacy of her EBP sensor sock. This has had a tremendous negative impact on the image of Taekwondo to the Taiwanese public eye.

I have recently watched a match between Aaron Cook, from England, and an athlete from Azerbaijan at the 2011 US open. Aaron cook has knocked out Steven Lopez recently and has been receiving attention from the global Taekwondo community. This tournament was Aarons attempt at redemption from his loss at a recent European tournament and his intensity seemed to guarantee his redemption.

Aaron landed a perfect turning round house kick and the opponent fell from the impact but it did not register on the EBP. Aaron ended up receiving a deduction from the referee and gave away two points during a seemingly simultaneous exchange of kicks. Aaron ended up losing by one point.

Lets pretend that this match determined the winner of a final match during the London Olympic Games. The perfectly executed kicks would not register on the EBP, and this would be broadcasted all over the world. The announcers would then try to clear up the confusion by explaining that the EBP provided a solution to the elimination of bias and inaccuracy of the judges. The future of Taekwondo seems grim to know that the skills of international referees, who are mostly decorated ex-athletes, are questioned.

Sparring is only a minor aspect of Taekwondo and yet, it is suffering as a whole.
Most parents send their children to Taekwondo classes not expecting to learn self-defense, but to learn manners, morals and personal well-being. The fact that the EBP is required to prevent the corruption of the leaders of Taekwondo goes against the very values that are taught to the Taekwondo students. Taekwondo will become a mere combat sport, such as boxing.

I am curious to know if Kukkiwon, as a leader and governing body of Taekwondo Worldwide, has even considered the possiblity that the EBP has the potential to desecrate all the progresses that have been made in Taekwondo. I highly doubt that they have seriously considered the impending issues. 

I am not only exposing the current problems in Taekwondo, but also asking for a true leader to come forward to implement the necessary changes. A true leader would be capable of eradicate all doubts of Taekwondo no longer being an Olympic sport and increase the participating weight divisions in the Olympics from four to eight.

After attending the Youth Olympic Games in Mexico, US Open, Korea Open, US National Championships and etc, I have witnessed countless interactions during matches that simply did not make sense. However, I will conclude this article here for the purpose of being concise. 

Thank you for taking your time to read such an unstructured article


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## terryl965 (Apr 14, 2011)

You know the man has alot of valed points, I was at the US Open and saw Aaron Cook deliver that blow and it brent the competitor over but nothing went up. They even had to fix the hogu's during matches, this stops the rythem of competition and gives the one controlling the match the unfair advantage and for there competitor to regroup as a whole. Over the last year I have seen everything thing and have heard every excus for all the mishaps with Lajust and in the end seen so many competitors get robbed match after match. I would prefer refs. going back and doing there job and educate them better than to miss with EBP's.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 14, 2011)

EBPs are, in my opinion, the equivalent to Nasa making a special pen to write in space.  The Russian solution was to use a pencil.  

We seem to have fallen into the trap that technology is the answer to the problem when, as the article points out, the problems were never technical to begin with.

Daniel


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2011)

mango.man said:


> Most parents send their children to Taekwondo classes not expecting to learn self-defense, but to learn manners, morals and personal well-being.




That comment jumped out at me....


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## nuhash (Apr 15, 2011)

mango.man said:


> It is becoming evident that Taekwondo is evolving into a sport for the wealthy


I agree very strongly, if we compare to other sports like soccer or cricket we can see that for the price of an Adidas Fighter we can buy quite a lot for one person (I am not faulting Adidas, just that i have been looking through some doboks just know)


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## andyjeffries (Apr 15, 2011)

nuhash said:


> I agree very strongly, if we compare to other sports like soccer or cricket we can see that for the price of an Adidas Fighter we can buy quite a lot for one person (I am not faulting Adidas, just that i have been looking through some doboks just know)



I disagree with your example.  For example, you can buy a dobok for about £15 over here (~US$25).  If you want to buy an Adidas Fighter (or Nike Olympic or whatever) then you can and you should have that choice.

As you compared it to soccer, let's follow through on that. You can buy a pair of F10.9 Adidas football boots from Amazon.co.uk for £18, but you can also buy a pair of Adidas X Predator X football boots for £193.

The fact that a more expensive, elite level product is available does not mean it's becoming a rich man's sport.  It means that if you want to spend more, someone will accomodate you and this will always be the case in any sporting endeavour - the equipment company spends money on research and charges more for their prized researched products.


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## miguksaram (Apr 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I disagree with your example.  For example, you can buy a dobok for about £15 over here (~US$25).  If you want to buy an Adidas Fighter (or Nike Olympic or whatever) then you can and you should have that choice.
> 
> As you compared it to soccer, let's follow through on that. You can buy a pair of F10.9 Adidas football boots from Amazon.co.uk for £18, but you can also buy a pair of Adidas X Predator X football boots for £193.
> 
> The fact that a more expensive, elite level product is available does not mean it's becoming a rich man's sport.  It means that if you want to spend more, someone will accomodate you and this will always be the case in any sporting endeavour - the equipment company spends money on research and charges more for their prized researched products.



You are correct that using uniforms as a way to show that it is becoming a rich man sport is a bad example.  However, when you are put in a position of having to purchase equipment that even at the low end is expensive, then this is where it slowly evolves into a sport for people that are well off.  Plus it is equipment that, from what I am reading, is not really working well at all.

I agree with the posting that technology is not the answer to better scoring.  I believe that manual scoring is still the best way.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> You are correct that using uniforms as a way to show that it is becoming a rich man sport is a bad example.  However, when you are put in a position of having to purchase equipment that even at the low end is expensive, then this is where it slowly evolves into a sport for people that are well off.  Plus it is equipment that, from what I am reading, is not really working well at all. I agree with the posting that technology is not the answer to better scoring.  I believe that manual scoring is still the best way.



I agree with all the above


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## terryl965 (Apr 15, 2011)

Look people do not have to buy them, they can pay twenty dollars and use the events one's. The price of competing is just that a price, you can buy off brands and save or name brands to be cool your choice.

The problem is not price the problem is equipment it does not work correctly, it is terrible and it takes away from the game. If they ever made one that truely worked than we all would be happy but for now they suck and we are stuck with them for better or worst.


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## Manny (Apr 15, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Look people do not have to buy them, they can pay twenty dollars and use the events one's. The price of competing is just that a price, you can buy off brands and save or name brands to be cool your choice.
> 
> The problem is not price the problem is equipment it does not work correctly, it is terrible and it takes away from the game. If they ever made one that truely worked than we all would be happy but for now they suck and we are stuck with them for better or worst.



That's why I strongly say that TKD is a Martial Art first of all and  can be practiced or learned with only your dobok and belt and perhaps a set of shin/instep pads plus a cup and no more.

However if you want TKD to be a sport for your kid and want him to suceed in the competion arena and be a national champion, you must pay for decent clothes (including brand name doboks) expensive safety equipment,tornament fees, meals,bus or airplaine tkiets,acomodations,etc,etc,etc.

I know an international poomsae champion she has given to Mexico and my place of residence only but medals and laurels and most of the times her family has to invest on her daughther so she can go outside Mexico to compete, this girl is living her dream but at a high cost, something that for example in USA she will get govermental help and sponsors.

I really don't believe in tornaments competition, no matter how effort you put in your training there is always the bad apreciation and now the bad electronic gear that can and will ruin a fight or a championship.

The fights I really like are the ones I fight with myself trying to be better everyday.

manny


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## miguksaram (Apr 15, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Look people do not have to buy them, they can pay twenty dollars and use the events one's. The price of competing is just that a price, you can buy off brands and save or name brands to be cool your choice.



Am I the only one that is sort of squeamish about renting out sparring pads that have been used by others?



			
				terry said:
			
		

> The problem is not price the problem is equipment it does not work correctly, it is terrible and it takes away from the game. If they ever made one that truely worked than we all would be happy but for now they suck and we are stuck with them for better or worst.


Right, that is my understanding that it just doesn't work.  I know manual is not perfect and there are so many problems that go along with it.  I guess I am just old fashion in thinking that this is just a better way for the sport to go.


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## andyjeffries (Apr 15, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Am I the only one that is sort of squeamish about renting out sparring pads that have been used by others?



Yes.  Snob!

;-) ;-)


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## miguksaram (Apr 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Yes.  Snob!
> 
> ;-) ;-)



Hey...just because I sip my Earl Grey tea with my pinky up  doesn't make me a snob...Just better than most.  ha.ha.ha.


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## nuhash (Apr 15, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> As you compared it to soccer, let's follow through on that. You can buy a pair of F10.9 Adidas football boots from Amazon.co.uk for £18, but you can also buy a pair of Adidas X Predator X football boots for £193.



I understand doboks wasnt the best argument but then lets look at competition kit, you NEED approved kit and kit in total can cost well in excess of £200 when bought new, and these are items you are required, whereas in football they dont say approved kit is required so you can choose a £5 pair boots or £200 branded pair.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 15, 2011)

I agree. My son does soccer and tkd and my daughter does ice skating and tkd and tkd is significantly cheaper than either of those other sports. Soccer costs $400 to sign up (for a 5 month season), then costs $3 a week for the game plus you have to buy soccer boots (a real good pair will cost $150 easily), jersey, shorts, club t-shirt and on top of all that the parents are placed on a roster to help out at the club. Ice skating is even worse, it makes soccer seem cheap. Tkd, on the other hand costs us $200 a month for me, my wife and both my kids to train (up to 4 classes a week). I can understand that if my kids started to become ultra competitive at tkd and wanted to compete at major events it would cost more, but that can be said for any sport. If my daughter wants to compete in ice skating, for instance, the price is astronomical. All up, I wouldnt say that tkd is a sport for the rich just because of costs associated with electronic hogus, I mean really, what percentage of all people doing tkd will ever compete somewhere where all this fancy gear is necessary?


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## puunui (Apr 18, 2011)

Manny said:


> I know an international poomsae champion she has given to Mexico and my place of residence only but medals and laurels and most of the times her family has to invest on her daughther so she can go outside Mexico to compete, this girl is living her dream but at a high cost, something that for example in USA she will get govermental help and sponsors.




The US government does not provide support, financial or otherwise, to its athletes. The USOC is funded by private sponsors as well as its share of IOC television monies. The US government regulates the Olympic movement in the US through the Amateur and Olympic Sports Acts, but funding is not part of that. The US government did donate some land for its Olympic Training Centers (OTC in Colorado Springs is a former Air Force base for example) but that is about it.


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## TaekwondoDad (Apr 19, 2011)

While I have had limited exposure to the electronic system, it seems to be a solution in search of a problem and one that is not very well thought out.

Please understand that my perspective is that of a parent watching my 6 yo daughter compete (competing as a 7 y.o. under USAT rules).  She used the LaJust hogu in Columbus for the Ohio State tournament.  

We were lucky in that we did not have to pay a rental fee and hogus were provided.  First they placed size 1 protectors on each girl.  They both swam in them.  My daughter typically wears a 00 hogu.  Lajust lists Size 1 as their smallest size on their website.  Someone took pity on the girls and came up with two size 0 hogus.  They were still big and bulky but the girls managed.  Luckily enough they were not required to wear the socks. 

Next the officials adjusted the sensors in both hogus according to the girls' age and weight class.  I am not sure if this was comical or sad.  The official had both girls kick each other to show them how hard they would need to kick in order to score a point.  Both girls had to kick each other repeatedly over and over again to the point where they almost knocked each other over.  Finally, if the official held one girl up while the other kicked, a point would register.  Needless to say this completely changed the nature of the competition.  

In other tournaments, without the electronic vests, ring officials can make intelligent decisions and concessions with to help younger athletes compete and grow.  Points can be scored based on the skill of the athletes involved rather than on whether one of them can kick harder than the other.  

Next, I have read in some "official" USAT postings that all athletes would be required to purchase and bring their own electronic hogus to tournaments in order to compete.  While this is of course a huge financial issue (especially for growing children) there is also the problem that while in non-electronic scoring matches USAT rules allow each competitor to wear a hogu that fits them, USAT rules require that each competitor wear the same size hogu when a the electronic hogus are worn.  So, thank goodness for the rentals available, but this also brings up the possibility of having your own electronic hogu, showing up at a tournament and being required to use a rental in order to have the same size as your competitor.

I really despise the idea of rental equipment for athletes.  There are days my daughter doesn't want to wear a piece of her sparring gear and I tell her she needs to practice in all the gear she is going to compete in.  With the rental hogus, she will practice in a standard non-electric hogu and be forced to wear something much heavier, most likely too large and ill-fitting when she goes to competition.

As for the socks, I have heard a lot about how they change scoring and techniques.  My major problem with them at this point is that my daughter will be "required" to wear them next year at USAT tournaments.  Currently she wears a child size 11.  There is no way a men's shoe size 3 sock will fit her.  I have hopes that we will encounter officials next year that realize how ridiculous it would be to require electronic socks be worn when LaJust doesn't make one that fits. However, it has been indicated that part of the issue with the disqualification of the Taiwanese athlete at the Asian Open (it has been reported that the old style sock fit her and the new style was too big).

I know that the issues about equipment being too big are not concerns for most practitioners, but it is annoying for those of us who have to deal with it.  It isn't as if the USAT overlooked the issue of young competitors.  The rules exclude 7 and under from wearing the socks.


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