# Facebook Martial Artists



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 17, 2016)

Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.

Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.

Some did a little training when they were younger, never got above a certain rank, but now feel age has given them the mastery that training did not.

And some apparently never trained. Got plenty of advice for martial artists, though.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Some did a little training when they were younger, never got above a certain rank, but now feel age has given them the mastery that training did not.


There are many people out there like this. Most tend to understand the martial arts from an outside view of the applications and not from actually using the applications. People like that are an interesting bunch.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2016)

Yeah.....

I don't really get that on mine.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2016)

I get people sharing that stuff, but for the most part it's people I know who have been training consistently for 5 to 50 years, sharing videos of things within their style. Then again, not friends with a whole lot of mma fanboys


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 17, 2016)

Pretty much the only people I see posting martial arts related stuff on Facebook are people who I know are currently training. Then again, probably half the people I know on Facebook are folks I met through the martial arts.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 17, 2016)

That reminds me.  I get a lot of Facebook friend requests and I don't recognize their names.  I see that we have several 'mutual friends' and my mutual friends might or might not be MT users, but that doesn't tell me who they are on MT assuming they are on MT.  I turn 'em down.

Tell me who you are on MT if you make a FB request.  

But I've said 'yes' to FB friend requests I've come to regret; friends of martial artists who just like to have a lot of friends who are martial artists.  Turns out they're asshats once I let them post comments.  Yikes.


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2016)

At the moment there's little martial arts stuff on the FB I see, however there is so much 'Brexit' and 'Stay' stuff it's hugely irritating.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 17, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.
> 
> Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.
> 
> ...



Same for any other sport.  You will find no shortage of people that know far better then NFL, NBA & NHL coaches online too.  It's just part of the deal when you have a spectator sport.  Not even just sports, there are plenty of folks that know how to direct fortune 500 companies better, which shows and movies a studio should cancel vs continue.  

It's really no different though, "Some did a little training when they were younger," = played high school football.

Armchair quarterbacks are just evidence that we are a reasonably mainstream activity.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> At the moment there's little martial arts stuff on the FB I see, however there is so much 'Brexit' and 'Stay' stuff it's hugely irritating.


Come to the U.S.  I'll trade you Trump, Gun Rights Posts for your Brexit


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> Same for any other sport.  You will find no shortage of people that know far better then NFL, NBA & NHL coaches online too.  It's just part of the deal when you have a spectator sport.  Not even just sports, there are plenty of folks that know how to direct fortune 500 companies better, which shows and movies a studio should cancel vs continue.
> 
> It's really no different though, "Some did a little training when they were younger," = played high school football.
> 
> Armchair quarterbacks are just evidence that we are a reasonably mainstream activity.


Definitely.  I have a family member that's like that and it's like an audio book stuck on play of NFL intelligence and how he knows everything about football.  People who have that much passion should get out of the "Armchair" and actually do what they love.  It doesn't have to be in a professional environment, because there's enough youth sports out there that can use people who  love the activity that much.


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## yak sao (Apr 17, 2016)

I live near Louisville and every year at Derby time horse racing "experts" come out of the woodwork just in time for the Kentucky Derby. Then the rest of the year, nothing.
Same with MMA. I go to work and every one is an expert on kicking or grappling or whatever as they critique various matches and fighters.
I think that is one thing that turns me off from MMA...the public consumption of it. People who have never taken a day of training in their life are suddenly experts.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 17, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.
> 
> Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.
> 
> ...



I have found that martial arts and weight lifting are the two subjects that seemingly EVERYONE has something to say.

As soon as you are seen training or lifting they come out of the woodwork and all the sudden the 130 pound 6,2 guy has all the pointers and tips on how you should be lifting those 280 pounds. Same when you are training, a guy will come by and be like "bro you doing it all wrong, do it this way!" Then proceeds to throw very sloppy and terrible hay makers that are very telegraphed.

They are strong hits, but by no means would they ever hit anything. I'm not trying to sound like a dick but it's a case of if the person doesn't know what they are talking about. Don't even bother because it just looks ignorant.

Many people also like to claim they do martial arts and claim they are great at it while providing nothing to back it up. They want to impress people and look tough. I find this is more prominent with MMA and UFC, everyone and there mother does MMA and everyone is an aspiring MMA fighter.

The phrase "Don't love with me I do MMA" is something I have heard more than I can count.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 17, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> That reminds me.  I get a lot of Facebook friend requests and I don't recognize their names.  I see that we have several 'mutual friends' and my mutual friends might or might not be MT users, but that doesn't tell me who they are on MT assuming they are on MT.  I turn 'em down.
> 
> Tell me who you are on MT if you make a FB request.
> 
> But I've said 'yes' to FB friend requests I've come to regret; friends of martial artists who just like to have a lot of friends who are martial artists.  Turns out they're asshats once I let them post comments.  Yikes.


But you can call me Sean.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> The phrase "Don't love with me I do MMA" is something I have heard more than I can count.



I might just adopt that phase myself.


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## Tez3 (Apr 18, 2016)

yak sao said:


> I live near Louisville and every year at Derby time horse racing "experts" come out of the woodwork just in time for the Kentucky Derby. Then the rest of the year, nothing.
> Same with MMA. I go to work and every one is an expert on kicking or grappling or whatever as they critique various matches and fighters.
> I think that is one thing that turns me off from MMA...the public consumption of it. People who have never taken a day of training in their life are suddenly experts.



My son in law often goes across to the racecourse there with horses, he works for Charlie Appleby of Godolphin, so look out for their horses, not always in the Derby though, that would be the other Godolphin trainer's, always worth a bet.


I don't get random people going on about MMA or martial arts, I don't have a lot of FB 'friends' and those that are, are genuinely MMA and martial arts people I know and have often trained or worked with.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2016)

Looking at this purely from an IT security POV..... Facebook scares the hell out of me....


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 18, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Looking at this purely from an IT security POV..... Facebook scares the hell out of me....


Why do you say that?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why do you say that?



A lot of social engineering exploits being used there


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 18, 2016)

I think the users are more of a problem than the social engineering. I tell users about the risks all the time but they just ignore it.  People don't see the risk until they have the problem, but by then it's too late.  After the problem has been fixed the same hands that got them into trouble the first time gets them into trouble the second time.   Smartphones scare me more than anything.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I might just adopt that phase myself.



The site censors the F Word with love. But by all means go for it. I know a couple of guys who say hug me I do bjj. It has never worked with the ladies unfortunately.


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## Azulx (Apr 18, 2016)

Youtube Martial artists I would say are worse.


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## Tez3 (Apr 18, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> A lot of social engineering exploits being used there



What! my naked men are just harmless fun! though as they are mostly ex military chaps who have been injured they are flying the flag for more awareness. Ok the naked rugby players are just that, naked rugby players.


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## pgsmith (Apr 19, 2016)

Human beings are troop animals. That is the reason that sites such as Facebook exist, so people can be part of a group without actually being part of a group. People profess expertise at various endeavors even though they only have a faint idea of what it's really about because that way they can feel that they are legitimately part of a group rather than being on the outside looking in. Those that are legitimately a part of the group because they engage in said endeavor resent those wannabes, because it allows them to feel that they are legitimately in the group and others aren't. It all comes back to how we view the world, and we all view it through the lens of our genetic past. Humans have a hard coded need to be part of a group, and we are happiest that way. Since we no longer live in little troops or family units, we have invented a myriad of ways to get our fix of belonging.
  I figure that if someone wants to profess mastery of a subject that they know little or nothing about, they are welcome to it. However, it may amuse me to make fun of them for it. 

  Just my opinions, since I wanted to feel like I was part of the group.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Some wanabees however are more than resented, they are detested and FB has been the reason these have been outed. Some are conning money out of people, others are betrayed their loved ones trust but they are all disrespecting those who have been 'the real thing'.
Veterans are exposing military imposters

It's one thing to say you are an MMA fighter or whatever quite another to say you have served your country when you haven't.
Endurance race organiser admits he lied about being an ex-Royal Marine


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## pgsmith (Apr 19, 2016)

Well there you go. Another group that a lot of people want to be a part of. It's absolutely amazing to me the sheer number of special forces veterans there are in the bars of America!    I imagine it's not too different in the pubs over there.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 19, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Well there you go. Another group that a lot of people want to be a part of. It's absolutely amazing to me the sheer number of special forces veterans there are in the bars of America!    I imagine it's not too different in the pubs over there.



I have heard (but honestly don't know how accurate the figure is) that there are 300 SEALs for every one that actually graduates from BUD/S training.

I've also met "Vietnam Vets" who, for their story to be true, would have been serving at the age of like 12.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Well there you go. Another group that a lot of people want to be a part of. It's absolutely amazing to me the sheer number of special forces veterans there are in the bars of America!    I imagine it's not too different in the pubs over there.



The famous one here is the Iranian Embassy siege when the SAS went in over the balcony of the building, seems so many people claim to have been there that the whole street would  have been full never mind the balcony. Of course the Falklands and Afghanistan have added to the number of Walts. They never say they were in a tank regiment or the Signals Corps etc it's always special forces.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> The famous one here is the Iranian Embassy siege when the SAS went in over the balcony of the building, seems so many people claim to have been there that the whole street would  have been full never mind the balcony. Of course the Falklands and Afghanistan have added to the number of Walts. They never say they were in a tank regiment or the Signals Corps etc it's always special forces.


Hey, I am a proud signal corps veteran. Don't mess with us, or we will portray you in a bad light. Don't think we don't know how! In fact, I am not sure I could get hired to do it right.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 19, 2016)

I was an MP. No one lies about that because no one wants to have been a cop. Heh. Yeh, I'm the guy that popped you for DUI. Too bad so sad.


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## donald1 (Apr 20, 2016)

The internet changes people I guess...

In real life im just some 22yr old who trains in karate and likes to yell kiai
But on the internet im a brilliant sophisticated wise and extremely talented bad*** who knows just as much as those old people who walk around saying "kids these days" and "respect your elders"


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2016)

donald1 said:


> The internet changes people I guess...
> 
> In real life im just some 22yr old who trains in karate and likes to yell kiai
> But on the internet im a brilliant sophisticated wise and extremely talented bad*** who knows just as much as those old people who walk around saying "kids these days" and "respect your elders"



Don't forget the all important "GET OFF MY LAWN!!!"


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 20, 2016)

Azulx said:


> Youtube Martial artists I would say are worse.



Lately I really been feeling the need to write a paper about how I feel about how this trend has been getting very out of hand. I mean it has always kind of been there but now we are in an era where not only the internet is readily available, but it is even more so readily available than it has ever been.

This especially true with the popularity of smart phones as they are common place, this means anyone can say anything at any given time. This means that the "Tongue Fu" practitioners are now more common and louder than ever.

I really have a request that people would follow and by no means am I picking on the so called "Modern Martial Arts" crowd. Because the people I am going to be talking about are not even in that crowd anyway.

Many people feel that because they know how to watch television, specifically UFC, that this somehow makes them an expert on martial arts. This somehow gives them credibility to call any fighting style that they don't see used in the UFC "absolute ****" and useless.

They treat UFC as it is some sort of end all be all contest on which fighting style is the best, and this is simply not true. UFC like any competition puts fighters to the test to see who will come out on top. Not their styles, but themselves personally. No matter how they sell you this product, in the end that is what it is. 

The reason for this is because people fight, not the martial arts style. The martial arts style can do no fighting without a person to use it to fight with. This means it all comes down to that man or woman using it. 

Anyway back on topic. Just because somebody watches a sport on TV. Does not make them a master on the sport and it does not give them authority to go on "crusades" that are about **** talking martial arts styles and martial artists simply because they have little to no UFC representation. Many fighting styles aren't going to work there in the first place because the rules do not permit many things and furthermore UFC's rules favors grappling way more than they do striking.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 20, 2016)

donald1 said:


> The internet changes people I guess...
> 
> In real life im just some 22yr old who trains in karate and likes to yell kiai
> But on the internet im a brilliant sophisticated wise and extremely talented bad*** who knows just as much as those old people who walk around saying "kids these days" and "respect your elders"



I try to keep the real me and the internet me exactly the same but for some odd reason. I just can't BEAR to shave my face before setting foot into cyber space.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2016)

Azulx said:


> Youtube Martial artists I would say are worse.


Don't know that I agree with that. What YouTube has done has given us visibility of a huge range of martial artists across the world, whereas previously we would mostly see whoever was in our immediate neighborhood. On YouTube I can find:

World-class fighters and champions
World-class instructors
Above average martial artists
Average martial artists
Below average martial artists
Complete beginners
Delusional nutcase wannabees and frauds

... from many different arts and countries.

Sure, you can find plenty of clueless incompetents on YouTube. The thing is, those guys were always out there - showing off in their backyard or teaching at the local YMCA or sometimes even running a chain of schools if they were charismatic salesmen or appearing in the pages of Black Belt magazine if they could take pictures that looked good. They just weren't on display for everybody the world to critique their technique.

I think we're pretty lucky to have YouTube as a resource. Sure, we can waste a couple of minutes every now and then rolling our eyes and feeling superior to some of the clowns putting themselves on display, but I'd rather take advantage of the opportunity to study some of the amazing top-notch practitioners out there.


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## clfsean (Apr 20, 2016)

I tend only deal with people I have known for a while & associate with in a consistent manner on FB. Every so often, I prune if it turns out the "friends" on FB turn out to be less than so. 

Basically ... known quality & quantity over anything else.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 20, 2016)

clfsean said:


> I tend only deal with people I have known for a while & associate with in a consistent manner on FB. Every so often, I prune if it turns out the "friends" on FB turn out to be less than so.
> 
> Basically ... known quality & quantity over anything else.


Time for me to prune.  Sometimes I rather like people in the context of how I originally met them and not in the context of what they feel free to post in FB.  It can get wild sometimes and sometimes it's disappointing, to see how they really are when not in an environment that restrains what they really want to say.

There have also been some experiences where the way they are in facebook is exactly the way they are in life no matter what environment they are in.  I don't like the "multiple personality" types where they are almost a completely different person depending on what environment they are in.


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## Azulx (Apr 20, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Don't know that I agree with that. What YouTube has done has given us visibility of a huge range of martial artists across the world, whereas previously we would mostly see whoever was in our immediate neighborhood. On YouTube I can find:
> 
> World-class fighters and champions
> World-class instructors
> ...



Mr. Dismukes, I should have been more clear in what I meant by Youtube Martial Artists. I meant those whose only experience is from Youtube. We had a student enter our Dojang last year. We were doing self-defense application drills, and he insist to do the escapes the way he saw in instructional videos, or "research" as he put it. He left our school because, he wasn't getting the training he desired; it didn't coincide with his "research." There are plenty of brilliant Martial Artists on Youtube , who those who have had or are currently training can learn things from. If the only MA experience you have is Youtube videos, then that is the problem I see.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2016)

Azulx said:


> Mr. Dismukes, I should have been more clear in what I meant by Youtube Martial Artists. I meant those whose only experience is from Youtube. We had a student enter our Dojang last year. We were doing self-defense application drills, and he insist to do the escapes the way he saw in instructional videos, or "research" as he put it. He left our school because, he wasn't getting the training he desired; it didn't coincide with his "research." There are plenty of brilliant Martial Artists on Youtube , who those who have had or are currently training can learn things from. If the only MA experience you have is Youtube videos, then that is the problem I see.


Gotcha. In the old days those would be guys who just studied out of a book and thought they understood the art.


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## Buka (Apr 20, 2016)

More fun than a barrel of monkeys, this thread. Oh, snap!


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Many fighting styles aren't going to work there in the first place because the rules do not permit many things and furthermore UFC's rules favors grappling way more than they do striking.




Weeeeeell, that's not actually true. There's a number of reasons why. MMA ( yep I say this a lot) is what it says on the tin, it's mixed martial arts not one style but techniques from many so no one uses just one fighting style. The rules are there for fighter safety, fighters if they wished are still capable of fighting without rules, they aren't physical barriers, they choose to obey the rules in competitive bouts. Many grapplers will tell you the rules in MMA favour strikers. Have you read or used the rules? The UFC isn't a fighting style it's a profit making business, MMA is the fighting style.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Many grapplers will tell you the rules in MMA favour strikers.


Yep. Current unified MMA rules favor strikers in a number of ways - probably because fans like to see striking more.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent.
This lets a lot of people basically plop gaurd making the striker either have to go to the floor with them, or just kick at their legs which won't really do much damage. They can't circle around their legs and soccer kick the ribs because that's banned too. Even though the rules don't mention that here.

The scoring system is also heavily biased towards grappling and this permits many grapplers to essentially just shove their bodies in their opponents close quarters. The grappler can hold the oponent against the cage for minutes on end while the striker is prohibited from using "rabbit punches and elbows and knees" to the guys back and head which are the most vulnerable areas while in this position.

The way the rules are designed enables the infamous "lay and pray" strategy which plagues the sport and in general makes it boring. The fact that a grappler can essentially just "control" the opponent by keeping them on the floor despite the fact that they never landed any successful submissions or strikes from this position means relatively easy and safer strategy for the grappler.

I'm not complaining here but these are just my observations.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
> 
> Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
> 
> Stomping a grounded opponent.



What the hell have you been watching?

What exactly do you know about the rules in MMA?


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Been watching UFC as stated in OP that's where I got an idea of the rules for it. Those are taken from their official rules. I haven't watched it lately because I find UFC boring. I'll spare us both the time and say that when you questioned my knowledge of the rules the first time I did a quick Wikipedia search of them.

Now I know Wikipedia is frowned upon but I check the references and they are taken from the nevada state athletic commission which is one of the three organizations who dictate the rules of the UFC.

I know what MMA is. There are two definitions of it though. Modern Martial Arts and Mixed Martial Arts. Mixed Martial Arts is a very loose term and pretty much means fighting or training in more than one fighting style. Modern Martial Arts in my opinion is an idiotic term because more than often the styles labeled as Modern Martial Arts are anything but modern, and have been around for centuries. 

Boxing for example has been called a modern art. Like seriously? Boxing has been around since the Greco Roman era. I guess 2000+ years is recent time to the people calling it a modern art.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

*The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts and may result in penalties, at the discretion of thereferee, if committed*:
Butting with the head
Eye gouging of any kind
Biting
Spitting at an opponent
Hair pulling
Fish hooking
Groin attacks of any kind
Putting a finger into any orifice or any cut or laceration of an opponent
Small joint manipulation
Striking downward using the point of the elbow
Striking to the spine or the back of the head
Kicking to the kidney with a heel
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
*Kicking the head of a grounded opponent*
*Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent*
*Stomping a grounded opponent*
Holding the fence
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent
Using abusive language in fenced ring/fighting area
Engaging in any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes injury to an opponent
Attacking an opponent on or during the break
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the round
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury
Throwing opponent out of ring/fighting area
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck
Interference by the corner
Applying any foreign substance to the hair or body to gain an advantage


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

So our knowledge of it is the same then.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So our knowledge of it is the same then.



What? I don't know if you realise it but you said in your post that these moves are legal ie it's because of these rules that they .....


Ironbear24 said:


> This lets a lot of people basically plop gaurd making the striker either have to go to the floor with them, or just kick at their legs which won't really do much damage. They can't circle around their legs and soccer kick the ribs because that's banned too. Even though the rules don't mention that here




You didn't say that because these moves are not legal, you posted the rules up without any comment about legality. You only mention that 'soccer kicking' is illegal.


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## BujinBos (Apr 21, 2016)

In regards to the OP, I've seen this idea before the internet. I remember some decades ago at least one person in my home town that wore a "silk" jacket with martial art "stuff" on it; dragon, yin-yang, etc. I do seem to recall he had some training but wasn't actively practicing anymore (though there was a dojo in our town). But he was The Martial Arts Guy, and really projected that image. 

I guess with the connectivity the internet provides we get to see these "The Martial Arts Guys"'s more easily than just hanging out down at the corner store.

Thank you Internet...I think.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> What? I don't know if you realise it but you said in your post that these moves are legal ie it's because of these rules that they .....



No I never said they were legal. I said that the rules prohibit strikers from doing many things that give grappling a much harder time. The fact that knees and kicks to the head and stomps are illegal to do on a person who puts themselves on the ground gives the grappler I safer area to be.

There is also the fact that hitting your opponents back is illegal, kidney punching is what you will get in trouble for and the kidneys take up a huge majority of the back. You are also not allowed to headbutt at all, which again. Makes it safer for the grappler to well, be a grappler. 

The rules by the looks of it seem to be set up so that in order to get off the ground you are forced to so it by playing their game, which is grappling, something that is their strength. How many rules are set up to prohibit the grappler from grappling and how many rules prohibit the striker from striking or using various striking techniques? For example you are not allowed to grappled your opponents wrists or hands, a common tactic in many striking styles to lock the joints and or open up your opponent to be struck.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

You didn't say whether they were legal or illegal, you posted them up without reference then went on to say that it was because of them ...etc etc.

I ref MMA and well as judge and coach and I think you are mistaken if you think that the rules actually favour grapplers or strikers. It's up to a fighter to have the right techniques to combat his opponent, the use of rules doesn't actually figure much into fighter's or coach's game plans.
I have seen many fights which never went to ground at all during the fight, I've seen many fights where it was ground only fighting, they didn't strike at all and of course I've seen many where there is a good mixture of both.
Overthinking the rules of an MMA fight would be a mistake, fighters know the rules, it doesn't lead them to do anything different from what they'd do anyway, the deciding factor in a fight is your opponent, it is she/he that defines your tactics not the rules.

I'm not sure why you think you can't 'grapple' the wrists or hands? You are, the 'small joint manipulation' rule covers fingers and toes. Hitting the back isn't illegal either, hitting the spine is. You cannot _heel kick_ to the kidneys but you can kick normally and punch, you can also punch/kick to the liver which is actually more effective.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

In the rules you put up it said punching to the kidneys are illegal, the kidneys happen to covor up a majority of the back due to the size of the kidneys and the liver is in the front of the body. If you are grappled you more than likely won't be able to strike the front of the body because there wont be enough space to strike.

This is just an example of if you are grappled many of the strikes taught in many forms of martial arts to break the grapple, are essentially innefective here because if you do them you will be hit with a foul. Since the rules cause things like this to happen it causes more of the grappling arts a safer experience, since many of the striking techniques designed to help you get out are unable to be used.

Another example here is an easy armbar escape. With your other arm grab one of their toes bend it sideways or against the joint. This is of course against the rules which forces the striker to use predominantly grappling methods to get out of the armbar, and this makes performing the armbar much safer for the grappler as that is one less thing the opponent is allowed to do to them.

Like I said I am not complaining here but when it comes to this mentality that UFC and in general MMA rules promote some sort of "ultimate contest of what art is the best." I just can't take that seriously because the rules are very against many fighting styles.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> In the rules you put up it said punching to the kidneys are illegal,



No, read no 13, no heel kicks to the kidney. They don't actually take up that much of the back being only fist sized. Liver is more to the side than at the front of the body itself.

I don't think you have a very good understanding of what an MMA fight is, no reason why you should if you don't do it but I don't think you can say the rules do what you think they do unless you a much better understanding of them and of how fighters plan their fights.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No, read no 13, no heel kicks to the kidney. They don't actually take up that much of the back being only fist sized. Liver is more to the side than at the front of the body itself.
> 
> I don't think you have a very good understanding of what an MMA fight is, no reason why you should if you don't do it but I don't think you can say the rules do what you think they do unless you a much better understanding of them and of how fighters plan their fights.



I will never lie and I will be honest with you. I have also stated that these are my opinions so they are by no means objective.  My MMA experience is watching UFC, which as of lately I don't because I get tired of seeing hugging matches. I spar sometimes with MMA guys, none are superstars by any means though. 

I been called an MMA guy, but I honestly don't know how to react to that. I just kind of nod and shrug about it, I do kenpo and Judo and some Escrima. Not sure what that makes me other than a martial artist. The only competitions I have been in were would resemble kyokyushin competitions. Mostly striking, takedowns and holds were there but the fight never continued on the floor. They just counted for points only.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> *The following acts constitute fouls in a contest or exhibition of mixed martial arts and may result in penalties, at the discretion of thereferee, if committed*:
> Butting with the head
> Eye gouging of any kind
> Biting
> ...


#11 is stupid. Why the hell not?


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> #11 is stupid. Why the hell not?


 I could have sworn that was allowed. A guy here even used that as examble on  for the classic lissing contest. On "Why MMA is the more brutal than  TMA." But I guess not. It's probably so the guys head won't be split open.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

If you can watch fights from other promotions as well as watching amateur and semi pro fights often there's a lot more skill shown in these than the UFC type shows because there's less money involved, less pressure to make a show for the spectators etc. The emphasis in these fights is techniques and winning, not saying the UFC guys don't want to win but the whole set up is different.

No 11 is there because it is a very nasty strike, a sharp pointed elbow straight down to the head causes concussion every bit as bad as a punch to the face. Why allow it when the point of competition is not to kill or even damage people. Use it by all means, (and we can use it very effectively when needed) in a SD scenario if you want but there is little need to allow it in a competition. We aren't barbarians.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I could have sworn that was allowed. A guy here even used that as examble on  for the classic lissing contest. On "Why MMA is the more brutal than  TMA." But I guess not. It's probably so the guys head won't be split open.



A lot of things are said against MMA, most of it isn't true. Many say there aren't any rules at all.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> We aren't barbarians.



Eh we are only a lion cloth away from being them lol.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Eh we are only a lion cloth away from being them lol.



No, unless you play rugby!
About Us - Barbarian FC


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> If you can watch fights from other promotions as well as watching amateur and semi pro fights often there's a lot more skill shown in these than the UFC type shows because there's less money involved, less pressure to make a show for the spectators etc. The emphasis in these fights is techniques and winning, not saying the UFC guys don't want to win but the whole set up is different.
> 
> No 11 is there because it is a very nasty strike, a sharp pointed elbow straight down to the head causes concussion every bit as bad as a punch to the face. Why allow it when the point of competition is not to kill or even damage people. Use it by all means, (and we can use it very effectively when needed) in a SD scenario if you want but there is little need to allow it in a competition. We aren't barbarians.


You see, I was just explaining to some Kickboxer on youtube, that the reason kenpo doesn't work in the ring, is because the rules of the ring are set up, so you can't use kenpo, and now this? It just got truer. LOL


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> You see, I was just explaining to some Kickboxer on youtube, that the reason kenpo doesn't work in the ring, is because the rules of the ring are set up, so you can't use kenpo, and now this? It just got truer. LOL



Not really, you are saying that in the whole of Kenpo there are no techniques that work in 'the ring'  which I'm betting is not true. MMA is made up of techniques from many styles, it is not the styles themselves. Kenpo will have techniques that meld quite nicely with the techniques taken from all the other styles used. Each fighter has their own arsenal of techniques.
People should stop seeing MMA as being style specific and start seeing it was it really is, no one style works in MMA but cherry pick the techniques from the many styles available to make them into what works for you and you have awesome MMA.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Not really, you are saying that in the whole of Kenpo there are no techniques that work in 'the ring'  which I'm betting is not true. MMA is made up of techniques from many styles, it is not the styles themselves. Kenpo will have techniques that meld quite nicely with the techniques taken from all the other styles used. Each fighter has their own arsenal of techniques.
> People should stop seeing MMA as being style specific and start seeing it was it really is, no one style works in MMA but cherry pick the techniques from the many styles available to make them into what works for you and you have awesome MMA.


I see what you are saying, but a kenpoist is constantly driving down with the elbow, as just a way of returning from a strike. Slaps some gloves on him and he can't effectively use any of our offensive techs. It is just a mess. LOL


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> You see, I was just explaining to some Kickboxer on youtube, that the reason kenpo doesn't work in the ring, is because the rules of the ring are set up, so you can't use kenpo, and now this? It just got truer. LOL



Are you being sarcastic or serious? Much of kenpo can be used in kick boxing, depending on the rules of course but much of kenpo is about punch and kick combinations.

Some kickboxing does not allow for elbows and knees but then that's not a huge deal, kenpo still has kicks and punches. I know what I said about the UFC rules favoring grappling might sound ridiculous but that's my opinion based on what I see, and how I see the judges award points more for the grappler for simply just controlling the other guys body.

I am not going to say kenpo or striking always loses though, in fact many strikers perform well there. Kenpo was the main style of Chuck lidel as well who did pheonomonol there.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Are you being sarcastic or serious? Much of kenpo can be used in kick boxing, depending on the rules of course but much of kenpo is about punch and kick combinations.
> 
> Some kickboxing does not allow for elbows and knees but then that's not a huge deal, kenpo still has kicks and punches. I know what I said about the UFC rules favoring grappling might sound ridiculous but that's my opinion based on what I see, and how I see the judges award points more for the grappler for simply just controlling the other guys body.
> 
> I am not going to say kenpo or striking always loses though, in fact many strikers perform well there. Kenpo was the main style of Chuck lidel as well who did pheonomonol there.


I am saying the kenposists that go into Kickboxing, become very good Kickboxers. However, the base art is different. They changed, kenpo remained the same. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

I will grant you they may have never been taught, any other way.


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I see what you are saying, but a kenpoist is constantly driving down with the elbow, as just a way of returning from a strike. Slaps some gloves on him and he can't effectively use any of our offensive techs. It is just a mess. LOL



However if a kenpoist decided to fight in an MMA comp they would have to, just like any other stylist, learn to fight in the MMA way. No martial artist goes into an MMA fight with just his/her own style. It's like a football ( soccer to you lot) player taking up rugby, there's some things that he can bring to rugby from his sport but he still has to learn a whole new game.

You can drive down the elbow in MMA just not onto the head, it's the only target you can't use.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> However if a kenpoist decided to fight in an MMA comp they would have to, just like any other stylist, learn to fight in the MMA way. No martial artist goes into an MMA fight with just his/her own style. It's like a football ( soccer to you lot) player taking up rugby, there's some things that he can bring to rugby from his sport but he still has to learn a whole new game.
> 
> You can drive down the elbow in MMA just not onto the head, it's the only target you can't use.


First of all, don't make us send some Tongans to walk all over your pint sized rugby teams, but I do see what you are saying, it is just that a key fighting strategy, in kenpo is to get that guy's head just out in front of your chest, and keep it there, for improvised rhinoplastic.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all, don't make us send some Tongans to walk all over your pint sized rugby teams, but I do see what you are saying, it is just that a key fighting strategy, in kenpo is to get that guy's head just out in front of your chest, and keep it there, for improvised rhinoplastic.



Elbowing the face into a pulp is a universal kenpo thing? Aww and here I was thinking me and the other students were special lol.

Some people look better after we get to their faces


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all, don't make us send some Tongans to walk all over your pint sized rugby teams, but I do see what you are saying, it is just that a key fighting strategy, in kenpo is to get that guy's head just out in front of your chest, and keep it there, for improvised rhinoplastic.



Send your Tongans and I'll raise you our Fijians... military Fijians. 

I have an upwards elbow from Wado Ryu that works very nicely.


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## drop bear (Apr 21, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> #11 is stupid. Why the hell not?



The only explanation i heard was someone saw brick breaking and decided it was too dangerous. I cant see it being more effective than any other downward strike. Which is allowed.

And even then it is thrown. They just put a little kink in the angle to make it a sideways elbow.


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## Buka (Apr 21, 2016)

I know a ton of Kenpo guys. Probably more than most of you here. Haven't known them forever, just since the seventies. You know what good Kenpo guys do when they fight you? They adapt. I think it's because they like to fight and don't really care what you do. As for what the rules are, they don't seem to care much, they just want someone to say "Go". 

As for Tongans. Don't let them near your black dog.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 21, 2016)

drop bear said:


> The only explanation i heard was someone saw brick breaking and decided it was too dangerous. I cant see it being more effective than any other downward strike. Which is allowed.
> 
> And even then it is thrown. They just put a little kink in the angle to make it a sideways elbow.


The explanation I was originally given was that it could end up cutting the face, which depending on where the blood goes could end up in the fight being stopped early.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

kempodisciple said:
			
		

> The explanation I was originally given was that it could end up cutting the face, which depending on where the blood goes could end up in the fight being stopped early.



Unlike every other strike.

Luckily one FC dosent have that rule so kempo would do fine in that promotion.





And they allow soccer kicks.





Now for the ufc.
These are not 12 to 6 elbows as they come around a bit.

Seriously. They make that distinction.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> In the rules you put up it said punching to the kidneys are illegal, the kidneys happen to covor up a majority of the back due to the size of the kidneys and the liver is in the front of the body. If you are grappled you more than likely won't be able to strike the front of the body because there wont be enough space to strike.
> 
> This is just an example of if you are grappled many of the strikes taught in many forms of martial arts to break the grapple, are essentially innefective here because if you do them you will be hit with a foul. Since the rules cause things like this to happen it causes more of the grappling arts a safer experience, since many of the striking techniques designed to help you get out are unable to be used.
> 
> ...



Sorry. Many of the strikes taught in many martial arts to stop a takedown are ineffective because they just don't work. Not because they are illegal. It would be illegal to spit your mouth guard during a takedown. Isnt going to save you. Illegal to have gel in your hair. Isnt going to save you.

You have to separate what is illegal in mma to what is appropriate defence. Because one does not mean the other.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Sorry. Many of the strikes taught in many martial arts to stop a takedown are ineffective because they just don't work. Not because they are illegal. It would be illegal to spit your mouth guard during a takedown. Isnt going to save you. Illegal to have gel in your hair. Isnt going to save you.
> 
> You have to separate what is illegal in mma to what is appropriate defence. Because one does not mean the other.



They do work though, they will not work all of the time because of many variables but that is martial arts, nothing is guaranteed to work all of the time. The spear takedown for example is possibly the most commonly used takedown, this exposes the persons head and neck, are you telling me a downward elbow to the back of this persons neck is not going to work? There is also kneeing the face which works very well. Plus you can't tell me strikes never work because I have punched people in the diaphragm and liver before while they had me in a top mount after a takedown, they rolled off me faster then the takedown happened. 



drop bear said:


> And they allow soccer kicks.



Well then I have no idea why the rules said otherwise then.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well then I have no idea why the rules said otherwise then.



It doesn't say that 'soccer kicks' aren't allowed. It says you can't kick a downed opponent, that doesn't necessarily mean a soccer kick.

You have to remember that MMA is a sport, it has rules because the primary object is not to kill or disable your opponent but to win the contest. MMA fighters go in with tactics, techniques and a game plan, they aren't going in angry at being attacked. They don't plan on beating their opponent to a pulp only to defeat him in a fair competition. You are talking about self defence techniques which will kill or disable, that is not what we are after in MMA so certain techniques which may arguably be dangerous are banned because why risk fighters lives and their health for a sport?
Separate in your mind the sport of MMA and self defence, they aren't the same. That doesn't mean people who do MMA can't defend themselves, they can switch their minds to doing the 'deadly' techniques easily enough but when talking about MMA we simply don't do them.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> They do work though, they will not work all of the time because of many variables but that is martial arts, nothing is guaranteed to work all of the time. The spear takedown for example is possibly the most commonly used takedown, this exposes the persons head and neck,




Where?











You are relying on the takedown to be craptastic for the downward elbow to work.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It doesn't say that 'soccer kicks' aren't allowed. It says you can't kick a downed opponent, that doesn't necessarily mean a soccer kick.
> 
> You have to remember that MMA is a sport, it has rules because the primary object is not to kill or disable your opponent but to win the contest. MMA fighters go in with tactics, techniques and a game plan, they aren't going in angry at being attacked. They don't plan on beating their opponent to a pulp only to defeat him in a fair competition. You are talking about self defence techniques which will kill or disable, that is not what we are after in MMA so certain techniques which may arguably be dangerous are banned because why risk fighters lives and their health for a sport?
> Separate in your mind the sport of MMA and self defence, they aren't the same. That doesn't mean people who do MMA can't defend themselves, they can switch their minds to doing the 'deadly' techniques easily enough but when talking about MMA we simply don't do them.



I know how to separate competition from real fighting. I competed in my teens, it wasn't anything like MMA, but it was essentially still a sport. The only thing different there was they didn't let the fight continue on the floor when a takedown was done. I plan on competing again, I want to try MMA, but I think it is all for the wrong reasons, I really don't like it, but I feel like I should do it to get recognition which will help me do what I really want to do, I want to teach martial arts.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Where?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The back of the neck is easily available there, the second one there is no chance because he is already off his root. He should have sprawled when he had the chance.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Well then I have no idea why the rules said otherwise then.



They don't. One FC not ufc.

ONE Championship - Rules


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> The back of the neck is easily available there, the second one there is no chance because he is already off his root. He should have sprawled when he had the chance.



To do what? The back of the neck is almost in the arm pit. The person being taken down is getting pushed backward and the person doing the takedown is controlling the hips.

You may get some flailing arm movement. If your takedown defence is already good you can sprawl and brawl. But downward elbows is not a determining factor.






And knee strikes and body punches from underneath. Well all that you are allowed to do in mma. So hardly the secret kempo anti grapple.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

when they got your legs already it is unlikely, I wish I new a video but I don't so I will try to explain it. Whey they are attempting the spear, they are lowered down and seemingly trying to jam the top of their head into your stomach as they reach for the legs. 

During this time, the are going to be unable to block any incoming strikes aside from knee strikes which will be very easy for them to defend, since they are hunched over and have their hands readily available. in face going for a knee is risky because they can catch that leg, it is a risk but the reward is high, getting hit in the nose with a knee strike while attempting a spear can end the fight right there. Anyway I am saying it will be unlikely they will be able to block anything is because of two reasons, one they cannot see what your hands are doing, and two they are bent over so their hands wouldn't be able to reach up and stop anything even if they know it is coming. 

Are you telling me you have never seen a spear fail because get a good clean hit attempting it?


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> when they got your legs already it is unlikely, I wish I new a video but I don't so I will try to explain it. Whey they are attempting the spear, they are lowered down and seemingly trying to jam the top of their head into your stomach as they reach for the legs.
> 
> During this time, the are going to be unable to block any incoming strikes aside from knee strikes which will be very easy for them to defend, since they are hunched over and have their hands readily available. in face going for a knee is risky because they can catch that leg, it is a risk but the reward is high, getting hit in the nose with a knee strike while attempting a spear can end the fight right there. Anyway I am saying it will be unlikely they will be able to block anything is because of two reasons, one they cannot see what your hands are doing, and two they are bent over so their hands wouldn't be able to reach up and stop anything even if they know it is coming.
> 
> Are you telling me you have never seen a spear fail because get a good clean hit attempting it?



It does happen. The person striking has to be a good wrestler to try it.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It does happen. The person striking has to be a good wrestler to try it.



Or simply know how to do it, I've done it and I have never done wrestling, I have done Judo, but never plain wrestling.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Or simply know how to do it, I've done it and I have never done wrestling, I have done Judo, but never plain wrestling.



Well not really. Because you have to be comfortable with being taken down if you screw it up.

Who have you done this to? How many fights have they had?

Because there is a difference between kneeing you mate in the back yard and kneeing someone who can actually set up a takedown.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> , are you telling me a downward elbow to the back of this persons neck is not going to work?



So, is this discussion about MMA or self defence because it's getting really mixed up?

A downward elbow, in fact any strike to the back of the neck would be illegal in competition so no one is going to train it for a fight, outside of MMA they may for self defence. You cannot get the two mixed up like this. We are taught when doing takedowns either single or double leg that your head should be jammed up against your opponents thigh and upright making the back of the neck a poor target, just as the photo shows. In MMA your opponent won't target the back of the neck but may well go for a chokehold if you aren't careful.


I don't see the point of competeting in MMA if you don't like it but as I've said I don't think you understand it yet. It won't give you anymore credibility in martial arts unless you are planning to coach MMA when you will need a lot more experience than just fighting.

When looking for techniques for your MMA arsenal there's a few things to consider, are they legal, are they effective *for you*, are they single techniques or can they lead to other game winning techniques, can you make them work under pressure, will they fit with your other techniques. for example I doubt dropbear and I favour the same techniques, some I cannot do because I'm too small, don't have the arm (or leg lol) reach etc, some techniques can be tweaked to make them work for me others I don't even consider. There is no one size fits all in MMA. Another thing about MMA is that a fighter has to be one or two moves ahead of the one he's doing now. The fighter will be doing a double leg takedown but his mind is on his next move and the one after that, that's why it's called physical chess. The fighter also needs to be listening to his corner and remembering his game plan and tactics, it's nothing like self defence at all.


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## Kenpoguy123 (Apr 22, 2016)

Honestly I don't see the problem. You don't have to train to be a fan of UFC or mma or martial arts in general. I mean for example if I was a football fan and I post a link to a football match on m facebook Im not saying I'm an expert on football.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> when they got your legs already it is unlikely, I wish I new a video but I don't so I will try to explain it. Whey they are attempting the spear, they are lowered down and seemingly trying to jam the top of their head into your stomach as they reach for the legs.



I'm suspecting you have not trained with anyone that is actually a decent wrestler, what you describe is not the proper way to shoot.  If you attempt that on someone that knows how to do a takedown properly you are going to hit the ground hard.  Maybe if you are one;y interested in self-defence and are relying on people using untrained technique you "might" pull it off, but what you are suggesting just isn't going to work.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Because you have to be comfortable with being taken down if you screw it up.




It's something MMA people learn to be good at because when fighting in a comp a lot of things can go awry so you always try have another move you can do. It's also why we say you don't actually ever lose a fight because while you may not have won the actual fight you've won because you've learnt so much, it's a luxury you don't get if you are fighting in a self defence situation.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> I'm suspecting you have not trained with anyone that is actually a decent wrestler, what you describe is not the proper way to shoot.  If you attempt that on someone that knows how to do a takedown properly you are going to hit the ground hard.  Maybe if you are one;y interested in self-defence and are relying on people using untrained technique you "might" pull it off, but what you are suggesting just isn't going to work.



I spar with some bjj guys and Judo guys among many other people who I don't recall their history. If fails to work then fine, as I said before not everything will work 100% of the time guaranteed because that is not how martial arts works.

If it goes to the ground I have Judo experience. When it comes to the spear takedown all you really have to worry about is not letting them get your legs anyways.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Well not really. Because you have to be comfortable with being taken down if you screw it up.
> 
> Who have you done this to? How many fights have they had?
> 
> Because there is a difference between kneeing you mate in the back yard and kneeing someone who can actually set up a takedown.



I did this to the top of the guys skull.  Not the back of his neck because it is sparring and I don't want to hurt anyone. I did it as I lowered my center to make it more difficult for him to get my legs. I never kneed them in the face because again, it's sparring and that would be too cruel to do that to your sparring partner.

I don't know everyone's background but some of these guys are bjj guys and Judo guys. I rarely spar against a "wrestler" so to speak outside of the more common place grappling martial arts. A lot of them have a hard time getting a hold on me because I learned how to deal with it, I am not the best at it and I am 100% positive a more experienced person than I will take me to the floor.

But these individuals did not, it worked for me because I guess I see it coming. They make it obvious and normally eat side kick or I just pivot around them. It could be as you said. Maybe they are bad or maybe not as experienced. I was told though to make it as risky as possible for the grappler to get in close, and if he does know what to do about it.

When it does go to the floor I get choked and have no shame in tapping, but not everytime since I been getting better and better at it enough to get back up off the floor. Grappling is really more of a puzzle game, it's a lot of mind games and being several steps ahead which is why I don't like it as much.

I prefer to rely on my strength and relfexes and overall striking technique rather than play a logic game on the floor. I know I am less experienced than you guys here, if I ever come off as sounding like a know it all I do apologize for that. I was just trying to make it clear that I did do it before and the reason why I argue is so I can learn.

I would rather make mistakes here on the forum and be corrected then make them out on the mats or even worse, out on the streets.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I prefer to rely on my strength and relfexes and overall striking technique rather than play a logic game on the floor



Two things, we always tell fighters not to rely on strength, that can be matched and then some, techniques, technique, technique! The other thing is that it's not a logic game at all, it's a game of chess and that's the fun of it, it's why we enjoy playing.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Two things, we always tell fighters not to rely on strength, that can be matched and then some, techniques, technique, technique! The other thing is that it's not a logic game at all, it's a game of chess and that's the fun of it, it's why we enjoy playing.



Does it ever get more enjoyable? I am very um, I don't know how to say this, anti being touched by other people. So I don't enjoy doing it, but I been doing it because it's a part of Judo and is important for me to be a well rounded fighter.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Does it ever get more enjoyable? I am very um, I don't know how to say this, anti being touched by other people. So I don't enjoy doing it, but I been doing it because it's a part of Judo and is important for me to be a well rounded fighter.


I think a total lack of panic can be happiness, or there about.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


>



I found an example of what I was talking about. This often is down to me and it just annoys me, this is what I mean by opportune moment for the elbows and knees. Thank you jowga wolf for finding it. I normally elbow and knee them in this position or attempt a tachi waza.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I prefer to rely on my strength and relfexes and overall striking technique rather than play a logic game on the floor. I know I am less experienced than you guys here, if I ever come off as sounding like a know it all I do apologize for that. I was just trying to make it clear that I did do it before and the reason why I argue is so I can learn.



There is a lot of strategy and logic in stand up fighting too.  If you rely on strength, speed, reflexes, etc in any aspect of martial arts I'd say you are doing it wrong.  Being able to defeat a stronger, faster, bigger person through technique and strategy is really what this game is all about.  Conditioning is important, but so is strategy.  There is a good reason top pro's do detailed studies of their opponents before getting in the ring and seek out top coaches known for ring strategy.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think a total lack of panic can be happiness, or there about.



Yeah I don't freak out when I get slammed to the floor anymore. The whole dojo shakes cause I'm 209 but I learned to accept it will happen.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> There is a lot of strategy and logic in stand up fighting too.  If you rely on strength, speed, reflexes, etc in any aspect of martial arts I'd say you are doing it wrong.  Being able to defeat a stronger, faster, bigger person through technique and strategy is really what this game is all about.  Conditioning is important, but so is strategy.  There is a good reason top pro's do detailed studies of their opponents before getting in the ring and seek out top coaches known for ring strategy.



Well of course there is thought on it. I'm not flailing around like one of these http://i.imgur.com/uoke9w5.jpg

I'm saying when it comes to stand up my athleticism and strenght are typically enough to get me by combined with my kenpo experience. A lot of it might come from my weight lifting, I noticed my strikes have much more force behind them now that I am 60 pounds heavier.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I did this to the top of the guys skull.  Not the back of his neck because it is sparring and I don't want to hurt anyone. I did it as I lowered my center to make it more difficult for him to get my legs. I never kneed them in the face because again, it's sparring and that would be too cruel to do that to your sparring partner.
> 
> I don't know everyone's background but some of these guys are bjj guys and Judo guys. I rarely spar against a "wrestler" so to speak outside of the more common place grappling martial arts. A lot of them have a hard time getting a hold on me because I learned how to deal with it, I am not the best at it and I am 100% positive a more experienced person than I will take me to the floor.
> 
> ...



Brother IronBear, it would help you in your goal, which is to teach, by studying the logic game. And the subtleties of technique. When you teach, most of the people that will come to you will not have your strength nor your will. But you have to help them as much as you help a strong young man like yourself. Not because it's just good business, but because it's right and you're going to want to help them.

I'll bet you can do it, too.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Does it ever get more enjoyable?



Oh I love it! My personal space is tiny so I don't mind people getting close at all, it's also easier for me to defend myself if people come close, drunks always do lol.



Ironbear24 said:


> this is what I mean by opportune moment for the elbows and knees.



The problem is that fighters don't always see what spectators  or even their corners see, they also get caught up in the moment and miss opportunities. Fighters while they have tactics etc also are adrenaline fuelled at this point, the inexperienced ones often lose their focus and react rather than think. It's very easy to criticise as a spectator lol, much harder to actually do. You are watching the video in the cold light of day, the fighters are in the cage in the moment.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 22, 2016)

Buka said:


> Brother IronBear, it would help you in your goal, which is to teach, by studying the logic game. And the subtleties of technique. When you teach, most of the people that will come to you will not have your strength nor your will. But you have to help them as much as you help a strong young man like yourself. Not because it's just good business, but because it's right and you're going to want to help them.
> 
> I'll bet you can do it, too.





Tez3 said:


> Oh I love it! My personal space is tiny so I don't mind people getting close at all, it's also easier for me to defend myself if people come close, drunks always do lol.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is that fighters don't always see what spectators  or even their corners see, they also get caught up in the moment and miss opportunities. Fighters while they have tactics etc also are adrenaline fuelled at this point, the inexperienced ones often lose their focus and react rather than think. It's very easy to criticise as a spectator lol, much harder to actually do. You are watching the video in the cold light of day, the fighters are in the cage in the moment.



Thanks buka, I'll keep that in mind. And yeah Tez, I realize that know, its like the old saying goes. Hind sight is 20/20.


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## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> And yeah Tez, I realize that know, its like the old saying goes. Hind sight is 20/20.



It can be very frustrating when your fighter isn't listening to you and you are shouting 'KNEES!!!' and you can see the opening but to all intents and purposes he's ignoring you! On the other hand it's also very funny when the fighters are really tied up in knots on the ground and some 'expert' in the crowd is shouting 'stand up!' at 'their' fighter. We could do a whole thread on things shouted from the crowd lol. 'Bite 'is bum' is another joyful shout I've heard.
It's not just on FB etc that you have so called experts they also come to fights and start giving advice as well as telling their mates 'what I would've done is.......'


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## Hyoho (Apr 22, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.
> 
> Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.
> 
> ...


Lol, some people on here seem to also only post YouTubes to back things up rather than quote from personal expertise and experience.


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## drop bear (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I found an example of what I was talking about. This often is down to me and it just annoys me, this is what I mean by opportune moment for the elbows and knees. Thank you jowga wolf for finding it. I normally elbow and knee them in this position or attempt a tachi waza.



From a guy who was so dominant in the fight he quit. 
If you are better than a guy you can do whatever you want.






We call this the Anderson Silva rule.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 22, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> The back of the neck is easily available there, the second one there is no chance because he is already off his root. He should have sprawled when he had the chance.


The problem with elbow strikes to the back of the neck is that most people don't understand how it works.  There is an assumption that the back of the neck is highly exposed and that's not true in all cases.  The higher you stand in your fighting stance the less available the back of the neck will be.

Stuff like this isn't going to be possible in a high stance.





The "flight pattern" of a take down from a shoot is to go under you and then go vertical.  By going vertical the neck is no longer exposed and it's a stronger lift.  Staying horizontal to life is asking for back injuries.

Can you elbow someone in the back of the neck? Yes, but only if the attacker stays horizontal for too long and only if the defender isn't in a horizontal stance.
The there is an assumption that all a person has to do is elbow someone in the back of the neck.  In reality, you have to stall the take down before you can throw any elbows.

Now with that said here's the best way that you can deliver an elbow to the back of the neck.  Personally I would recommend trying to elbow the spine in the back since it's a much easier target than the neck and it doesn't move in awkward positions.  The other benefit is that you don't have to worry about your elbow missing it's target.  Even if you miss the spine you will still hit the back.

The first step to making this happen is that you have to lower your stance.  This causes the attacker to shoot or grab lower than they should. This makes their grab-lift weak and creates a good striking service with the back being at a horizontal level or at a down ward angle of 25 - 45 degrees. The only way to make your opponent to shoot lower is to lower your stance. 

Here's an example.  Compare Master Wongs stance to the guy at the top.  Then feel free to contact Master Wong to let him know to ease off the coffee.





The lower your stance is the more difficult it'll be for someone to pick you up or knock you over.  The more you are able to get under someone the easier it will be to lift them up because you'll be able to use your legs to help with the lift.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> It can be very frustrating when your fighter isn't listening to you and you are shouting 'KNEES!!!' and you can see the opening but to all intents and purposes he's ignoring you! On the other hand it's also very funny when the fighters are really tied up in knots on the ground and some 'expert' in the crowd is shouting 'stand up!' at 'their' fighter. We could do a whole thread on things shouted from the crowd lol. 'Bite 'is bum' is another joyful shout I've heard.
> It's not just on FB etc that you have so called experts they also come to fights and start giving advice as well as telling their mates 'what I would've done is.......'



You always hear your corner men. Pretty much the same way you hear birds chirping when you're a half second away from a car crash.
It's frustrating when you're a corner man. As a fighter, it's like listening to your parents advice when you're fifteen.


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 23, 2016)

I often hated when they shouted to me in my teenage years from the sidelines. It would distract me, to this day I get distracted and tend to lose focus on my opponents eyes when there is tons of shouting and noise going on.

I often would have a whole "report" from my sifu and peers when I got back from my bout and would hear "you should have done this" ect. It is very good to know for future references but at that moment it's like well its already over sooo, yeah. It's really my fault for being a knucklehead and not obeying said advice though, but sometimes it was hard to make out who's voice was who's.


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## Hyoho (Apr 23, 2016)

Lol so we are on a thread that pokes fun at Facebook and YouTubers and STILL someone has to post it to try and back up their premise.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 23, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Stuff like this isn't going to be possible in a high stance.



What I find most interesting about nonsense like this that tries so hard to avoid proper wrestling responses is that if someone shot like that and you sprawled hard you'd probably have a better chance of KOing them from how hard his face would hit the floor then you would from those elbows 

Honestly it's like they are trying to teach people to hit fastballs using a t-ball stand...  If you make the attack sloppy enough anything will work.  Find someone that actually can shoot a decent double and it's all going to fall apart fast.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 24, 2016)

Buka said:


> You always hear your corner men. Pretty much the same way you hear birds chirping when you're a half second away from a car crash.
> It's frustrating when you're a corner man. As a fighter, it's like listening to your parents advice when you're fifteen.


I can debate this. I never kickboxed, due to personal issues, however I fenced often. I never heard my second, or fellow fencers, no matter what they screamed at me. I would ignore my parent's advice, but value theirs, i just wouldn't hear it. When the break came, I would focus on their advice, but unless they told me during the break, I wouldn't know that they were shouting anything, I was so focused on my opponent.


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## drop bear (Apr 24, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> What I find most interesting about nonsense like this that tries so hard to avoid proper wrestling responses is that if someone shot like that and you sprawled hard you'd probably have a better chance of KOing them from how hard his face would hit the floor then you would from those elbows
> 
> Honestly it's like they are trying to teach people to hit fastballs using a t-ball stand...  If you make the attack sloppy enough anything will work.  Find someone that actually can shoot a decent double and it's all going to fall apart fast.



Or ironically you can do it if you are so good at wrestling that you can safley pick that shot and strike rather than having to defend it.


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## MAfreak (Apr 26, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.
> 
> Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.
> 
> ...



how do you know if they train? und why do you care? maybe they're just fans like the fat people watching football at tv without ever leaving their living room except for buying more beer and chips. no one gives a f on them either.


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## Hyoho (Apr 26, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> how do you know if they train? und why do you care? maybe they're just fans like the fat people watching football at tv without ever leaving their living room except for buying more beer and chips. no one gives a f on them either.


Not too difficult to see what they are about from the background. A few moves in the kitchen, chopping up water bottles in the backyard etc. My favorite is seeing people holding swords ankle deep in the sea.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

Hyoho said:


> Not too difficult to see what they are about from the background. A few moves in the kitchen, chopping up water bottles in the backyard etc. My favorite is seeing people holding swords ankle deep in the sea.



Release the Kraken?


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## donald1 (Apr 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh I love it! My personal space is tiny so I don't mind people getting close at all, it's also easier for me to defend myself if people come close, drunks always do lol.



they might not seem intimidating but drunks are pretty dangerous.  Not to be taken lightly. You never know when you run into some drunken master. (Master ken cant even hold a candlelight to these people)


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 27, 2016)

donald1 said:


> they might not seem intimidating but drunks are pretty dangerous.  Not to be taken lightly. You never know when you run into some drunken master. (Master ken cant even hold a candlelight to these people)



In the ER, the phenomenon of Beer Muscles is well documented...


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Seems like there are an awful lot of people on Facebook who post all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs, but they don't seem to actually train.
> 
> Some of them did train, and much respect to them, but they no longer train.
> 
> ...


I'm on FB and I still train.


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## pgsmith (Apr 27, 2016)

lklawson said:


> I'm on FB and I still train.


  Ah, so *you're* the one who posts "all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs."
  Wondered who that was!


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## lklawson (Apr 27, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Ah, so *you're* the one who posts "all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs."
> Wondered who that was!


My secret is out.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2016)

donald1 said:


> they might not seem intimidating but drunks are pretty dangerous.  Not to be taken lightly. You never know when you run into some drunken master. (Master ken cant even hold a candlelight to these people)



Most of my working life in my second career was dealing with drunks (males and females), from the aggressive to the sleepy and everything in between.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2016)

pgsmith said:


> Ah, so *you're* the one who posts "all the martial arts memes and inspirational fortune cookies, who link to all the videos of UFC fights and back-alley brawls and World Star Hip Hop beat downs."
> Wondered who that was!


In fairness, I know people who do train seriously and still post all that stuff.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, I know people who do train seriously and still post all that stuff.



My coach is mad keen for an inspirational quote on face book.


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