# Practicing with children



## ziason (Sep 13, 2006)

I have a question for everyone. AT my school there are only so seperations by age. Below 14, and 14 and above. Personally I am not thrilled about practicing martial arts against a 14 year old partner, especially a girl. I am nearly 50 and male. Our instructor says it's good for her to practice against me, and I can agree from that perspective. But for me to break out of a choke or wrist grab, or block a punch or kick from a 14 year old girl I hurl across the dojo with one hand seems pointless. I have been in real life situations where I had to use ma to defend myself and my opponents were all adults, usually drunk, angry, scared, or some combination there of. I think I would get a lot more realistic training if I could focus on training with other adults. 
How do your schools handle this? Are your broken up into more age groups? Please include the style in your reply.


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## goodwrench_mc (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> I think I would get a lot more realistic training if I could focus on training with other adults.
> How do your schools handle this? Are your broken up into more age groups? Please include the style in your reply.


 
The cut-off where I train in Kenpo is also 14 years old. I agree that working with a 14 year old my not seem productive, but I know that at 48 and blue belt, I enjoy working with the junior black belts that have moved into the adult class. Their speed and flexability makes working with them a learning experience every time. Now our school is fairly large so the mix of ages is good, but so is the ranking. I do end up working with many different lower ranks, which may be what you are frustrated with. Is it the age or the rank ?


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## MJS (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> I have a question for everyone. AT my school there are only so seperations by age. Below 14, and 14 and above. Personally I am not thrilled about practicing martial arts against a 14 year old partner, especially a girl. I am nearly 50 and male. Our instructor says it's good for her to practice against me, and I can agree from that perspective. But for me to break out of a choke or wrist grab, or block a punch or kick from a 14 year old girl I hurl across the dojo with one hand seems pointless. I have been in real life situations where I had to use ma to defend myself and my opponents were all adults, usually drunk, angry, scared, or some combination there of. I think I would get a lot more realistic training if I could focus on training with other adults.
> How do your schools handle this? Are your broken up into more age groups? Please include the style in your reply.


 
The age cut off 14 or 16, seems like the norm at the schools I've been to.  There have been times when I'd specifically pair up people according to size, for the reasons you've mentioned.  Its certainly a good idea to have a constant rotation during the class, so that you get the chance to work with all types of body sizes.

Mike


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## Gentle Fist (Sep 13, 2006)

Practicing with a child or someone much smaller than you is a good way to work control.  You never know when your going to have to take down that drunk uncle...:cheers:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 13, 2006)

At the risk of sounding blunt.....All of your training time in a class setting is not MERELY and SOLELY for your benefit.  Some of that time is too help others.  Hense even though you're not getting the PHYSICAL benefit of defending against a 14 year old girl, you should be helping her defend against someone of your size (she's also more likely to need the MA by being a small, young female).  Also you should be getting the MENTAL benefit of helping explain things to her when working with her.  The better you undertand something the better you can use it too and the way to get better at understanding something is by learning to explain it to someone else...


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## Rob Broad (Sep 13, 2006)

Working with those who are more frail means we have to learn control, which is as important as being able to defend oneself. It also allows us to thoroughly disect the mechanics of technique. Once the person does get maneuvre right it can also teach a little humility.


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 13, 2006)

As Rob says working with smaller, weaker partners allows a good student to concentrate on the finesse points that make a technique work well. ("Good" is not a comment on ziason but instead a reference to those who just blast through smaller partners and fail to learn finesse.) Also you may find that some 14 year old 80 pound girls are tougher than you would expect. You never know who you will learn from, every new partner is a new opportunity.

Jeff


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## HKphooey (Sep 13, 2006)

And just wait until you meet up with a 14 year old female at a seminar who takes you down without thinking.   Trust me I have seen it happen.  

I agree with most of the posts about learning control and accuracy when dealing with a smaller, younger person.


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## Sam (Sep 13, 2006)

I agree with kenpojujitsu.

Others have mentioned some points which you ARE getting an oportunity to work on, but even if there were benefits, no accuracy or control to work on, training is rarely an activity you do solely on your own. By the nature of the art, you practice and learn and grow with others. If every person at the studio decided they were only in it for themselves, no one would learn very much.


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## ziason (Sep 13, 2006)

goodwrench_mc said:


> The cut-off where I train in Kenpo is also 14 years old. I agree that working with a 14 year old my not seem productive, but I know that at 48 and blue belt, I enjoy working with the junior black belts that have moved into the adult class. Their speed and flexability makes working with them a learning experience every time. Now our school is fairly large so the mix of ages is good, but so is the ranking. I do end up working with many different lower ranks, which may be what you are frustrated with. Is it the age or the rank ?


It's the age. I am also a blue belt and nearly 50. I agree that many of the younger students have excellent mastery of the material. I'm simply focused on self defense in an adult situation, and I don't feel training with children benefits me. I understand they benefit from dealing with someone older, larger and strong who is the aggresor, but as for my own training I am far more comfortable dealing with adults.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> It's the age. I am also a blue belt and nearly 50. I agree that many of the younger students have excellent mastery of the material. I'm simply focused on self defense in an adult situation, and I don't feel training with children benefits me. I understand they benefit from dealing with someone older, larger and strong who is the aggresor, but as for my own training I am far more comfortable dealing with adults.


 
Again you get TONS better when you have to assist someone else, so everybody wins.  You get better and they get better.  But it seems by your posts that you're only concerned with the physical and only concerned with yourself.  If that is the case then you're right. You need to train with adults (and only the ones who are bigger, badder and more skilled than you) and the 14 year olds need to train with someone who spells team without the "I" in it... 

I hope I'm just reading into your posts and misjudging you....


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## ziason (Sep 13, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> At the risk of sounding blunt.....All of your training time in a class setting is not MERELY and SOLELY for your benefit.  Some of that time is too help others.  Hense even though you're not getting the PHYSICAL benefit of defending against a 14 year old girl, you should be helping her defend against someone of your size (she's also more likely to need the MA by being a small, young female).  Also you should be getting the MENTAL benefit of helping explain things to her when working with her.  The better you undertand something the better you can use it too and the way to get better at understanding something is by learning to explain it to someone else...


Well, I actually agree with all of the points you make. And a couple are excellent points. I have been chosen be several of them when we partner up because they tell me I seem to know a lot and I make them actually do the technique til it works (i.e. I don't let them escape or block, etc.). I guess me real issue is my prior training and realworld experience is with adults, usually violent, sometimes under the influence of whatever. So I guees it's just one more little adjustment I need to make in my training. Growth is good. Thanks for your feedback.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> Well, I actually agree with all of the points you make. And a couple are excellent points. I have been chosen be several of them when we partner up because they tell me I seem to know a lot and I make them actually do the technique til it works (i.e. I don't let them escape or block, etc.). I guess me real issue is my prior training and realworld experience is with adults, usually violent, sometimes under the influence of whatever. So I guees it's just one more little adjustment I need to make in my training. Growth is good. Thanks for your feedback.


 
You know what I do when working with the children? I handicap myself while defending.  I either use only one hand or try to defend while kneeling for the ones shorter than I.  And everytime something gets through and they touch me I realize a grown person would have probably hurt me in that instance.


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## ziason (Sep 13, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Again you get TONS better when you have to assist someone else, so everybody wins.  You get better and they get better.  But it seems by your posts that you're only concerned with the physical and only concerned with yourself.  If that is the case then you're right. You need to train with adults (and only the ones who are bigger, badder and more skilled than you) and the 14 year olds need to train with someone who spells team without the "I" in it...
> 
> I hope I'm just reading into your posts and misjudging you....


Your points seem to echo Kenpojujitsu3, and as I say in my response to him, they are good points, and I just need to achieve a comfort level working with the younger students.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 13, 2006)

So drop the ego, suck it up, and realise that maybe there are benefits to you as well that come from working with a 14 year old girl and that you are part of a team, or club, and sometimes *you *are the weak, pathetic person that your partner could hurl across the room.

Work control, use proper technique, not size and strength. Everyone benefits from working with a variety of people, right from the really big, to the really small.


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## Carol (Sep 13, 2006)

Crime statistics are changing.  There is a sharp increase in gang activity by young women and teenage girls.  

Also, we change all as we get older and our reasons for getting in altercations are different.  At 25 it may be about flexing beer muscles.  At 50 and above it may be because a hoodlum thinks one is a pushover target for a nice watch or a wallet full of cash and useful plastic.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 13, 2006)

ziason said:


> It's the age. I am also a blue belt and nearly 50. I agree that many of the younger students have excellent mastery of the material. I'm simply focused on self defense in an adult situation, and I don't feel training with children benefits me. I understand they benefit from dealing with someone older, larger and strong who is the aggresor, but as for my own training I am far more comfortable dealing with adults.


Why wouldn't learning control bennefit you?


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