# Bujinkan v. Genbukan?



## Hudson69 (Oct 8, 2009)

I was reading a thread in Kenpo about Tracy's system v. Ed Parker's.  There was no bad mouthing of one over the other and this is what I am getting too.

Without being negative how do these two systems differ with Tenamura Sensei being a former student of Soke.  I sat in one Genbukan class in Utah but that wasn't anything.

If someone can comment on the Jinenkan system that would be great too, in regard to how similar/different it is from the parent system.

Thank you


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## Chris Parker (Oct 8, 2009)

Hi Hudson69,

I think this has been covered a couple of times in different threads, but to concisely put it in one spot, here goes:

Essentially the main difference is in the emphasis of each organisation. The Bujinkan at present doesn't really look to teach the individual Ryu, or even the particular kata from each (depending on the individual instructor, of course), but rather it's emphasis is on the principles and nature of combat as expressed through the traditional teachings. There are various reasons for this, including Hatsumi Sensei's current belief's as to what is most important to keep these arts (and it's practitioners) alive. I might point out here that that does not necessarily mean that the techniques need always be "combat effective", as simply continuing to breathe is just a part of life, and is not the definition of being alive (or living). 

Tanemura left the Bujinkan in the mid '80s (about '84 if memory serves) for a variety of reasons that we don't need to go into here, but he then formed his own organisation (the Genbukan) so he could continue to teach the arts as he saw best. The Genbukan's emphasis is on "correct transmission" of the traditional Japanese Martial Arts. As a result, there is a greater emphasis on physical standards and continuity in abilities across the board, as well as a greater emphasis on the technical aspects of the systems.

The Jinenkan was formed after Manaka Sensei left the Bujinkan in the mid '90's. The emphasis of the Jinenkan is on drilling the basics (as Manaka did with Hatsumi Sensei early on in his training), and then in teaching and learning the individual Ryu in the same order as the scrolls are written. Again, there is an emphasis on the technical aspects.

Each have their own particular strengths and weaknesses. The Bujinkan is great for getting principles, getting used to flow and adapting to movement, and will appeal to people wanting to be able to individualise the art to themselves. The downside is that there is less control over the end result, with gifted people gaining a very good degree of skill, but others being left floundering with little "solid" to grasp on to. 

The Genbukan will get you very good from a technical standpoint, and has a huge base of knowledge to draw from. It's downside can be just that, though, with more information than you can realistically get through (for most people), resulting in an overload, giving a broad base, with little enough time given to mastery of any particular skill-set. A solution to this has been the traditional ranking in individual Ryu-ha. 

The Jinenkan, with it's emphasis on the basics is one of the most solid bases in the Ninjutsu world. It also is the most limited in terms of schools taught, so there is more time to spend getting good at particular areas. However, with it's emphasis on the classical scrolls, there can be limited real-world violence (in terms of a street-style attacker) understanding, so from a strictly self defence standpoint, it can be a little lacking there.

Of course, these are generalisations, and good instructors (of which there are plenty in each organisation) will minimise (to the point of removing almost all) the limitations and weaknesses apparent, as well as heightening the strengths. And those are the instructors that will keep each of these organisations moving forward into the future.


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## Kajowaraku (Oct 8, 2009)

Being in Genbukan I can say the observations Chris made are correct as far as my experience with either genbukan or the other orgs goes. It is true genbukan offers a vastness of knowledge, probably more than anyone can ever hope to master, but I suppose this is at least in part also true for Bujinkan, the main difference being that it isn't all that obvious do to the absence of a fixed curriculum for each discipline. However, I can imagine that people getting higher ranked in bujinkan, and getting on a more personal basis with Mr. Hatsumi Masaaki find themselves before new challenges. It is like Chris said, the difference between the orgs seems to be mainly one of emphasis. In genbukan training on flows and principles occurs too, but only after rigorous training in the traditional basics has transpired does it start to take on any significant role in training. In bujinkan it seems to be the other way around (correct me if i'm wrong here), one learns the principles and the flows and only when good at those can one learn the more traditional knowledge base (the lack of a fixed curriculum for grades seems to confirm this, afterall, one can't put "flow and mastery of principles" in a curriculum that easily, leaving more to the discretion of the instructor, in Genbukan the requirements are all very clear, but flow is assessed by the execution of these fixed techniques, so it is still at least a  part of the evaluation. Obviously, i suppose for grading in bujinkan, it won't be just flow, and some level linked techniques will need to be mastered too. 

I'm a scientist and take an interest in  correct transmission, so genbukan works fine for me, while the very layed back atmosphere that seems to be more predominant in bujinkan dojo doesn't work for me. I can understand alot of people preferring that over the almost military discipline of  genbukan though. 

What people should understand before anything else is that it isn't about what's good or what's bad, not even about which is better than the other. It's about what works for you. Even if that is (gasp) american or (why not) french-"ninjitsu". 

I still would have to reccomend sticking to the basic three X-kans or their direct spinoffs if you want to learn ninpo though. Like i said before: "throwing iron chopsticks does not a ninja make."


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## STEPS (Oct 8, 2009)

All dojos in all the X-Kans are not equal. Do some hunting. Stephane Meunier from Montreal wrote a GREAT book about how to chose a martial art and a good instructor within it. I suggest you check it out as a guideline. Many people who have read it wished it was available back when they were choosing a dojo. Good luck to you!

http://www.budomontreal.com/En/Store.html


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## Bruno@MT (Oct 9, 2009)

It is true that not all dojo or sensei are equal.
That is why in most dojo, you get 2 free lessons so that you can get some feeling for how training is.


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## EWBell (Oct 9, 2009)

Finding a good instructor is paramount regardless of which X-kan you choose, in my opinion.  Being in the Genbukan I know that we have standards in place for ranking, but standards alone are not enough.  The most important thing for a student is having an instructor who will correctly transmit the techniques to them.  If the instructor isn't doing that, then the syllabus is worthless.


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## xJOHNx (Oct 11, 2009)

If I remember correctly, 2 of the 7 schools Jinenkan trains in has at least or has 65 kata.. So I don't know if that is limiting, because it can take up to a year to perform a kata completely right with daily training.

The limited real world violence, well that's up to the teacher no? No one ever said that you were going to survive on the street because of MA... No matter what MA it is.. No matter the teacher... You get a better chance though!


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## Chris Parker (Oct 11, 2009)

Let's see:

Gyokko Ryu has around 50 kata including the Sanshin and Kihon Happo.
Koto Ryu has around 50 kata.
Togakure Ryu has nearly 50 kata (including the Bikenjutsu).
Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu has around 30 kata, Jutaijutsu (Taijutsu) has nearly 40 kata (with the last book having up to 5 traditional henka per kata).
Takagi Yoshin Ryu has 125 kata ( depending on how the Muto Dori and Daisho Sabaki are taught).
Kukishinden Ryu has about 60 kata for the unarmed, 60 kata for Bo, 20 for Jo, 15 for Hanbo, 20 for Biken, 5 for Jutte, 3 for Kodachi, 15 for Naginata, 9 for Bisento, and 30 for Yari, giving a total of 240 or so.

This is not including the Jinen Ryu (founded by Manaka Unsui Sensei, and containing Jutte, Sword, Nito, and more), nor is it including the various henka in the scrolls or those possible from your training. 

So I'm in total agreement with you xJOHNx, I just meant that it was more limited in scope than organisations such as the Genbukan/KJJR. Very good points about the street aspect, too.


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## xJOHNx (Oct 11, 2009)

Damn! Let no-one ever say again that you don't know what you are talking about! 

You are right, I mis-read your sentence (twice), re-read it for the third time and now I understand what you were saying. Forget my previous comment as you are completely right.

I love Henka, it keeps you aware during performance.

About the street violence: my sensei said it this week. To avoid fake-certainty when you walk on the streets. First school ever to be so honest about it.


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## Troy Wideman (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Chris,

Just to correct you on the numbers for Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu. It truly depends on what line you are referring to. In Ishitanni Den there is 52 Kata just for shoden Menkyo this does not include the patterns that are taught for the kuden section and the list of pressure points. Therefore just the shoden Menkyo would be around 80-90. The chuden level has about the same and the okuden level is bigger still.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Chris Parker (Oct 14, 2009)

Hi Troy,

Yeah, I am aware of that. From memory the Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu lineage that Tanemura Sensei holds has the Shoden no Gata combining the Omote and Ura Gata in the one book, typically one Omote Gata and two or three Ura Gata each time. Within the Bujinkan version the Omote Gata and Ura Gata are two seperate books, with the Omote Gata having 14 - 16 techniques (depending on how henka are counted), and the second book (the Ura Gata) having another 20. There are then henka to those as well, but the list for the Bujinkan version (Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu) is a slightly different list to the Genbukan/KJJR variant (Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu). I believe the Jinenkan follow the Hatsumi lineage.

If this is incorrect, please let me know.


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## Troy Wideman (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi Chris,

Actually your pretty close. The difference between the Mizuta lineage and the Ishitani Lineage is in the order of the techniques and content. The Mizuta lineage seems to have a slightly different flare to it. Some of the names and order of the techniques actually seems like it is mixed up a bit. This is just my assumptions of it though. The Ishitani den seems to be a more complete line, at least from what I have observed and trained in. Both lines are great though. There is another line of Takagi Yoshin Ryu that Tanemura Sensei has learned and  it has a completely different feel then both the Ishitani and the Mizuta. 

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Chris Parker (Oct 16, 2009)

Hi Troy,

Good to know! I have seen a number of different versions of the lineages, even within the same lineage itself. Some versions of the Mizuta-den (Hatsumi lineage) I have seen teaching only 7 kata for the Muto Dori, and no Daisho Sabaki, others have only the 14 kata of the Daisho Sabaki, and others have 13 kata for the Muto Dori, and may or may not include the Daisho Sabaki Gata. Interestingly, the Takagi Ryu Chugokui Mokuroku, supposedly written around 1844 before the lineages were split, features only the 7 Muto Dori kata, with no Daisho Sabaki.

The structure of the different branches is a bit different as well. The Ishitani-den, for instance, contains Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu (Hontai Kukishin Ryu), and other sections, whereas the Mizuta-den does not. And the Hontai Yoshin Ryu (under Innoue Soke) is different again, although it claims the Kukishin Ryu for it's weaponry work as well. 

Add to all of this the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu whose Taijutsu is basically modelled on the Ishitani-den Takagi Ryu, with very similar kata lists and performance. 

I completely agree that the "feel" of the different branches are quite different as well, I would describe the Mizuta-den as direct, and free from extranious motions, whereas what I have seen of the Ishitani-den I would describe as bigger in action and excecution. Both are just fantastic systems.


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## Troy Wideman (Oct 16, 2009)

Hi Chris,

The Mizuta den line has both Muto Dori Gata and Daisho Sabaki Gata, the difference between the two is that there is very few ura gata in the Mizuta den for these sections. This is an example of why I say it is not as complete as the Ishitani den. I like to refer to ura gata as the "what if's", hahhaha. I think for the longest time in the bujinkan it was not common knowledge that there was a  Daisho Sabakki Gata section in Takagi Yoshin Ryu because Hatsummi wasn't teaching it openly. 
I found it interesting that in his book secrets of the Samurai that he did not list the Shirabe no Gata section but listed the Muto Dori and Daisho Sabakki sections which are in a higher level normally.
 I agree with you that Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu is made up from Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, however, the patterns are done differently but are close. I truly feel that Takagi Yoshin Ryu is one of the most well rounded ryu ha taught within the xkans. However, all the different ryu ha combine together to make you a well rounded martial artist.
You are correct as well, that the Mizuta den does not include the bo jutsu with it, the ishitani den does.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Almack (Nov 17, 2009)

Wow!! Loads of great info (for a 3rd Kyu) to try and get my head around. 

On a side note, I'm aware that Soke (Dr Hatsumi) doesn't allow members of the Bujinkan to train in the Genbukan. What is Tanemura's stance?


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 17, 2009)

The three X-kans are all mutually exclusive. if you train in Bujinkan you can't join genbukan or jinenkan (correct me if i'm wrong, but I seem to remember it being the case for jinenkan too). The other kans have the same restrictions on joining any other ninpo organisation. I'm not fully sure about jinenkan, as i said, but as far as i know it is the same way. Still, you'll usually get alot more respect being a member in an X-kan (or Banafide spinoff) than when joining some made up McNinja. ie, it's not unheard of for people to switch x-kan later in their MA career, and inbetween the X-kans that is theoretically possible, due to the large overlap in material. So it isn't all bad blood around at all. In fact it's very double, very paradoxical, and above all very Japanese.With Japanese it often seems they try to kill each other with politeness.


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## xJOHNx (Nov 19, 2009)

Never heard about that in Jinenkan.
Than again, politics are not a part of the curriculum during class 

Is it true that if you join genbukan that you hae to sign some kind of contract not to bring it to the public? Or other martial arts?

heard someone saying it over the weekend.


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## EWBell (Nov 20, 2009)

xJOHNx said:


> Never heard about that in Jinenkan.
> Than again, politics are not a part of the curriculum during class
> 
> Is it true that if you join genbukan that you hae to sign some kind of contract not to bring it to the public? Or other martial arts?
> ...


 
You can study other martial arts if you are a member of the Genbukan.  However, you cannot study other ninpo/ninjutsu arts.  As far as showing techniques to the public, you aren't supposed to teach people techniques who aren't members unless you have permission to do so, as in some type of seminar.

Everything you need to know about joining the Genbukan is located in the following links.  The second link is for an Adobe version of the membership rules.  I'd go by these before I'd go on hearsay.  

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?genbukan_join

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=886


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 20, 2009)

Studying other arts (but not ninpo or ninjutsu) is not only allowed, but encouraged because it makes you a more complete martial artist. All high ranking genbukan members practise both ninpo and jujutsu. And one or 2 practise other arts as well.
It is not a rule, as in 'written down' that you must do both ninpo and jujutsu, but Tanemura sensei says it is a 'good idea' so all people who intend to stay for the long haul do this.

As for the rules, they are public, and you can find them here:
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?25&fileID=886


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## Cryozombie (Nov 20, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> It is not a rule, as in 'written down' that you must do both ninpo and jujutsu, but Tanemura sensei says it is a 'good idea' so all people who intend to stay for the long haul do this.



Rules or not, I agree with Mr. Tanemura that it's a good idea.  Eventually.  One you have good fundamentals in your primary art.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 20, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Rules or not, I agree with Mr. Tanemura that it's a good idea.  Eventually.  One you have good fundamentals in your primary art.



About when: it depends. Genbukan ninpo and KJJR jujutsu are almost naturally complimentary. Genbukan ninpo and taekwando... much less.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 20, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> About when: it depends. Genbukan ninpo and KJJR jujutsu are almost naturally complimentary. Genbukan ninpo and taekwando... much less.



True... I've often said the same thing about the Buj and Taekwondo.  But I also think if you are studying two arts which are very similar in scope, while they may compliment each other and make you better at both... I question will it serve you _best_ in the long run?  It's in no way a bad thing... but to use a too common analogy: I have no qualms about having 2 sizes and weights of claw hammers in my toolbox, but I might be better prepared for that home repair project if I have a level or a screwdriver too...


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## Chris Parker (Nov 21, 2009)

Unfortunately, Cryo, that is a flawed analogy.

Having multiple tools at your conscious disposal is great for the home handiman, however it is rare that a home repair job will take place under highly adrenalised states, with major limitations on your ability to perform fine motor skills, form cogent sentences and thoughts, and leave you acting purely on reaction and unconscious trained responces. As a result, it is fine having a variety of tools requiring different skills for different situations.

When it comes to a martial art, there is a very different set of requirements. The skills are required to be applied under the above described adrenalised state, so having conflicting skill sets and strategies/tactics such as Tae Kwon Do and Taijutsu will cause one of two things. Either there will be a mental lockup as your unconscious tries to process which one to use, or (more commonly) you will come out with only one, the one you unconsciously believe is the strongest. That means that at least half of your training is straight out the window with no benefit at all, and that is really the best case scenario.

But to use your tools analogy, the spanner, screwdriver, and hammer are more representative not of different arts, but more the different applications of the one system. Only one punch is fine, but having a few kicks and some grappling skills (provided they are congruent with each other) is the ideal. But that does not mean cross training, as that can actually be detrimental.

DISCLAIMER: I have cross-trained myself in the past, and probably will in the future, but that is primarily to expand my education and understanding when a student comes in and says "I have done xxxx". So it certainly has it's place, it's just not what most people tend to think....


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## xJOHNx (Nov 21, 2009)

EWBell said:


> You can study other martial arts if you are a member of the Genbukan.  However, you cannot study other ninpo/ninjutsu arts.  As far as showing techniques to the public, you aren't supposed to teach people techniques who aren't members unless you have permission to do so, as in some type of seminar.
> 
> Everything you need to know about joining the Genbukan is located in the following links.  The second link is for an Adobe version of the membership rules.  I'd go by these before I'd go on hearsay.
> 
> ...


Cleared up alot of things!

Thanks!


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## bwindussa (Nov 24, 2009)

This is a most excellent thread. Lots of good information. I have been out of the MA scene for about 12 years due to a somewhat disfiguring knee injury and am just now returning. I had no idea that all of these changes had taken place.  Thank you.

I trained in a Togakure class in the misty past. Any recommendations on a class anyone has heard about in Utah? I'm ready to hit it again.

Or, maybe I'll just hit the 'search' button first.


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## Hudson69 (Nov 26, 2009)

bwindussa said:


> This is a most excellent thread. Lots of good information. I have been out of the MA scene for about 12 years due to a somewhat disfiguring knee injury and am just now returning. I had no idea that all of these changes had taken place. Thank you.
> 
> I trained in a Togakure class in the misty past. Any recommendations on a class anyone has heard about in Utah? I'm ready to hit it again.
> 
> Or, maybe I'll just hit the 'search' button first.


 
Depending upon where you are at in Utah it can differ.  Coming from the same Ninjutsu instructor (at least at some point in time, maybe the same time?) I would like to name one but only if you are in the Ogden area.  There is a Genbukan dojo with at least two persons who were also students of John Jensen's in attendance.  It is the Haruka Dojo:
*Haruka Dojo*
[SIZE=-1]GWNBF/KJJR 
Ronald Holt 
2933 Jackson Avenue, Ogden, UT 84403
Tel: 801-394-1525
Fax: 801-626-8979
Email: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]rholt2@weber.edu[/SIZE]


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## Hudson69 (Nov 26, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Unfortunately, Cryo, that is a flawed analogy.
> 
> Having multiple tools at your conscious disposal is great for the home handiman, however it is rare that a home repair job will take place under highly adrenalised states, with major limitations on your ability to perform fine motor skills, form cogent sentences and thoughts, and leave you acting purely on reaction and unconscious trained responces. As a result, it is fine having a variety of tools requiring different skills for different situations.
> 
> ...


 
Not to argue but I have cross-trained in multiple disciplines and never felt a conflict in an attack/defense pattern, just flowed with the moment as best I could and this is from LEO experience with numerous unarmed meetings.

But this could be the reason why; I have been more fortunate(?) and have been in more total stranger (potential) H2H situations a fairly wide variety of situations than I think the average MA gets to be involved in.


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## bwindussa (Nov 26, 2009)

Pleae forgive me if I'm wrong but on this discussion, I was taught that any technique that was useful could be incorporated, not just the ones I learned in my lesson plans.  I was encouraged to look beyond the classroom into the world of man and in nature to"fill-out" the training.

I will probably say this badly so please don't be offended as I make this point. I feel that most if not all training is useful and that, once learned deeply, you will respond correctly to a situation regardless of where the knowledge is learned. Do you agree?

After all, isn't Ninjutsu a way of life where learning is something encouraged throughout? Regardless of where you learn the knowledge.

Am I reading this thread correctly or am I way off base? Normally for me it's the latter.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 26, 2009)

You are forgiven...

No, it is not a case of "just using whatever techniques work in a situation". It is a matter of adapting the principles of the art to a situation. And the principles of the art, it's guiding philosophy, will proclude you from a number of techniques, for example roundhouse kicks and axe kicks go against the principles of Ninjutsu. However, they work perfectly for Tae kwon Do. In that art, though, Ninjutsu's postures are all wrong. 

The point here is that the underlying principles, or the guiding philosophy of an art, give it it tactics, strategies, power source, and more. You just can't use an Aikido power source and expect it to be effective with a Tae Kwon Do attack, and vice versa. I once had a "discussion" with a person (who trained in a bogus ninjutsu school here in Melbourne) who was telling me that roundhouse kicks and three-sectional staves were perfectly fine to use in ninjutsu because ninjutsu is whatever a ninja uses... kinda missed the point on that one. A ninja is not just a guy in black pajamas and a hood, you know...

And Hudson69, provided you could congruently combine the different techniques under one principle, then yes, you could get benefits out of cross training the way you say. However, most people cross train as they believe they have a lack in one or more areas in their current training, so they go to a very different type of school to cover that gap. And that honestly just doesn't work. MMA training, for example, I have said a number of times is not really "Mixed" Martial Art training. It is a single system with a single guiding philosophy which works with multiple ranges, which grew out of disparate arts.

If you have managed (as MMA coaches have) to bring everything together congruently, then it can work. But you will find that you are not really using multiple arts, when it comes down to it, you are using a base system (probably Kempo for yourself, although not necessarily) as your guide, and simply adapting the other techniques to that first arts concepts. So bringing in ideas from other arts is not in itself bad, provided you can make it work in your original art. As said, a spinning tornado kick won't work within Ninjutsu, but groundwork (adapted from BJJ or similar) can.

The reason I say you will adapt it to a single art which may or may not be Kempo for you, is that the art you will naturally go to in a high stress or high adrenalin situation will be the one you unconsciously believe is the strongest, and that may or may not be the one you have spent the most time training in. It could be the one that most closely resembles what you see as powerful (say, from movies), or could be an art you haven't studied for years or more, but you had a very powerful experience in which has never left you. Hope this has made sense...


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## bwindussa (Nov 27, 2009)

OK, that makes good sense. I agree that in a stress situation one will go with the techniques one feels are best. I also agree that Ninjutsu is far and away the most practical art that I have studied and I would naturally fall back on it in almost every situation.  The principles taught are useful in every aspect of life, not just for combat.

I still have this nagging thought that says if I find a useful and practical technique and I add it to my training, that it can help me be a better prepared person overall. Then again, if it was practical and useful it's probably already in the training somewhere.

I think I see what you mean when you say you can't use an Aikido power source and expect it to work with a TKD attack. Because each art draws friom diffrent principles and if they don't come from a common ground then one is just doing themselves harm. The difference would be just too much and would cause internal confusion.

Is this correct?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 27, 2009)

Well, yes, but a few things need to be understood. In a high stress/high adrenaline situation, the higher functions of your brain will simply shut down, leaving only the more survival-orientated functions to be utilised. The functions lost include the ability to form complex sentences, and perform complicated techniques (without a huge amount of repetitive training with the correct approach). Another thing it will do is shut down your conscious minds ability to critique and make decisions the way you can do right now (as you read this).

A few threads recently have given very good examples of this, one (The Destroyer Style) speaks very strongly to this at the end. The stories of a number of incidents where the ability to consciously make decisions cost people's lives, as they followed procedure designed to make cleanup in a shooting gallery easier.

So if you think you will be able to consciously "choose" what techniques/tactics you will employ, or whether your BJJ is the best, or Tae Kwon Do, or Aikido, realise that that very decision-making ability will be one of the first things you will lose. That leaves us wondering, in a lot of cases, what will come out? If we train in a variety of arts, each with their own different power source, movement style, strategic base, tactical approach, and more, which will come out? Well, that will be the one that you unconsciously beileve is the most powerful.

I'll say that again. It will be the one that you unconsciously believe will be the most powerful.

And that will have nothing to do with what you rationally, consciously, logically think or believe it is. It is, instead, whichever your unconscious believes. Now, the unconscious mind is an interesting place. It is the storage place for every experience you have ever had, as well as where your beliefs, values, and behaviours come from (you act the way you do because of your unconscious mind, not due to any conscious decision. This is what we refer to as our "personalities"). By and large, the values and beliefs that determine our behaviours are pretty much set by the time we are 7 years old, with a bit of tweaking until we are about 15 or 16. The only ways to change this after that are traumatic experiences (hence the term "life-changing" experience), or therapy (usually quite intense). The only other variant to this is if there was no previous value installed, in other words, if you have no experience at something, and no experience to relate it to, then a new value and belief can be created from a new experience.

Training can be traumatic, but really falls under the category here of "therapy". It is therapy because it is an undertaking to alter your behaviours, which is achieved by giving new experiences to "replace" previous beliefs and values, which then give you your new behaviours. But the experience needs to be powerful enough to replace any previously existing beliefs. I'll explain.

Say you saw a movie when you were young. Let's call it The Karate Kid... In this (hypothetical!) movie, there was a protagonist who has distinct disadvantages, he is smaller than the other kids, has less ability, and is constantly bullied and beat up. He discovers a local martial art master, who teaches him (in a rather unorthodox, and honestly ineffective way, only giving physical movements without the necessary context and appropriate mindset for the actions to be utilised... but I digress...) the skills of a particular martial art. Using this new skill, he takes on the bullies, and wins the girl, a trophy, and his self respect. And he did this using an exotic-style technique (a rather telegraphed action which announces it's intention ["I'm going to kick!"]) from this martial art.

Now let's say that you saw this film when you were quite young. In fact, this was your first real experience seeing martial arts (and relating what they are, in terms of handling violence and life's obstacles). Now the only experience you have in terms of martial arts are this film. So, with your unconscious mind being unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality, the only reference it has to create a belief about martial arts, and to give them a value, is this piece of hollywood. The belief could go a number of ways, but we'll take it as a high value experience, which means that your belief about martial arts are that they look like what you saw in the movie (they all look like karate, lot's of striking and kicking, little grappling, forward facing aggressive postures etc), this is what works, this is what is powerful, and it is the exotic, different techniques (like the single-legged crane-kick) that are needed to be successful (as a side note, if you see kids play fighting, they will often go to these "movie" poses, as they are percieved to be more powerful. They will almost never go to a boxer's pose, nor an Aikido Hanmi, nor any other. What is in the movie's are powerful...).

So a few years later, you take up a martial art. You may take up Tae Kwon Do, or Karate, as that looks like what you personally believe to be powerful... but you may not. You may take up something entirely different, such as Aikido, WIng Chun, or Ninjutsu, for conscious belief reasons. But if the training is not sufficiently designed to replace your previous beliefs, then you may find that, despite a number of years training in a completely different type of system to karate (let's say Aikido, yeah?), when you are put in a high stress/high adrenaline situation you are likely to respond with a version of the karate your unconscious mind believes to be more powerful. The conscious mind really doesn't enter into it.

But if the training is done well, or is geared in such a way to convince you that it is more powerful than the karate you have seen or trained in, then a new belief takes the place of the old one, giving new values (Aikido I have trained in is more powerful that karate from movies), and that changes your behaviours (Aikido comes out, rather than karate). This could happen a number of ways, most often the art being "proved" to you, being on the recieving end can do that.

Just remember that if you have trained in both systems over time, your unconscious mind will choose whatever it believes is the best of the different options, not switch between them. So if you trained karate when you were 6 through to 9, and had it's power instilled in you, and Aikido from 22 through to 29, but never had it sufficiently demonstrated to you that Aikido was stronger, you will probably still find the karate making an appearance under stress.

Hopefully that helps you understand the psychology behind this (and the training ideas). This is why cross-training and taking bits of this and bits of that because they "seem to work" is really actually to be discouraged, unless it is able to be congruently adapted to an existing base. Otherwise you are honestly wasting a lot of your time...


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## bwindussa (Nov 27, 2009)

OK, I believe I get it now. I appreciate your patience, mine is a thick skull that sometimes needs repeated bashings with a simple idea.

Actually this makes more and more sense.  I remember many occasions in the classroom, during intense training sessions, students (including myself) would shut down, regress to something they "learned" in their past, or start looking for a weapon instead of using the techniques they had been taught.

I remember consiously wondering about this and even mentioning it in the classroom. Something like "why is it after all these years of learning to fight unarmed every time it gets tense do I go looking for a weapon?" It got a laugh at the time but now it makes sense that at the time we unconsiously didn't believe in the power of the training. Is that correct?

Dang, I have such a long way to go. It's really too bad we don't live an extra hundred years or so, that way us slower learners would have more time to understand the "simple stuff".

Thanks for the clarification.

Brad


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## Chris Parker (Nov 27, 2009)

The "looking for a weapon" thing is basically your unconscious recognising danger, and looking for the strongest responce possible, regardless of whether or not it is appropriate. This is how we end up with police shootings and the like, as the first instinct of the unconscious is to go to the most powerful option, and that sees officers drawing a sidearm sometimes prematurely or inappropriately. It is not a fault of theirs, just something that really should be addressed in their training (and from what I have seen is being addressed more and more, thankfully). But everytime you hear about a police officer shooting someone who "is armed only with a knife", or is mistakenly thought to be armed, or similar, realise that it is just the same mechanism in operation.


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## bwindussa (Nov 27, 2009)

I've seen that same scenario with the police here in the US. When I was attending Utah's "police academy" we actually had several students who asked why we really needed to learn H2H and baton when we all carried guns. Not kidding.  That was back in the mid 1980's and i sincerely hope we have higher standards for officers now.

Getting sort of back on topic though, why is it that the x-kans are mutually exclusive? Why would one club not allow one to train if you were a member of another group?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 27, 2009)

Well, the short version would be "That is what the heads of the various organisations decided".

Essentially, each different organisation teaches the same thing in different ways, so to be training in both the Bujinkan and the Genbukan (for example) you would be essentially saying to each teacher "I don't believe you are teaching me everything I would need to know" (from a Japanese perspective). It's really a question of respect for your teacher/chosen organisation and the respective head of that group (Hatsumi Sensei, Tanemura Sensei, Manaka Sensei). If you truly have faith in your teacher, then there is no reason to go to another.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2009)

Part of the reason we are not allowed to crosstrain is no doubt political. But the other reason is that each organization has a very different approach to learning MA, which each of the founders thinks is better than the others. Bujinkan focuses on the underlying principles and strategy. Genbukan focuses on the technical aspect, making sure that for each test / grade, you know a certain amount of tehniques, and you know them very well. Jinenkan focuses on the basics until they are ingrained for good.

So while the systems of each org are made up of similar ryuha, they have different ways of teaching said system, and different ways of running their organization. And each of the founders probably wants their students to learn the art the way they think is best, and not the way 'the other one' thinks is best. And as Chris said, if you look at it from a Japanese perspective, then training the same art under another sensei is like saying _'I don't think that you can teach me everything I need to know'_. And that is also why cross training in a -different- art is not a big issue.


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## bwindussa (Nov 27, 2009)

So you're not losing information by choosing one? That would be a concern. I guess another would be which one works best with one's personal philosophy and desires.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 27, 2009)

For that I would refer you to the first page of this thread... but to add to it, the most number of schools/systems, therefore the largest technical curriculuum, belong to the Genbukan/KJJR (Kokusei Jujutsu Renmei), followed by the Bujinkan (with a much smaller emphasis on such things), then the Jinenkan after the others. Each has their benefits, for example systems such as Bokuden Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Tenshin Koryu will be taught in the KJJR, although Hatsumi Sensei learnt these systems and brings them out from time to time. And the Jinenkan has the Jinen Ryu, created by Manaka Sensei, primarily based on weaponry, specifically sword, two sword, and Jutte.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2009)

Personally (I am in Genbukan) I don't worry about how many schools there are in my system or which organization teaches which details. The contents of each system are similar and cover many the same things. They just go about teaching in different ways.

Also, the fact that Genbukan allows you to learn traditional schools, and allows you to receive licensure in the traditional ways is a moot point for most people. Most people will never get to the point where they are allowed to test for those licenses, since you have to be 3d dan (that will take about12 to 16 years) before you can request to study a specific school beyond the basics that are taught at taikai.

Rather, make a choice for the system that 'feels' right to you.
For me personally, I like the Genbukan way of doing things. It is very structured and I think it is most suitable for me. It also enables me to study jujutsu under the same sensei, which is what drew me to Genbukan in the first place.


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## bwindussa (Nov 27, 2009)

Wow, a LOT has indeed changed since I was last training. I feel like Rip VanWinkle. Thanks for all the great info!

Brad


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## Chris Parker (Nov 27, 2009)

For a final point, I would recommend looking to the quote from Kyoshi Troy Wideman in Bruno's signature. That says it better than most.


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## Hudson69 (Nov 28, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> You are forgiven...
> 
> No, it is not a case of "just using whatever techniques work in a situation". It is a matter of adapting the principles of the art to a situation. And the principles of the art, it's guiding philosophy, will proclude you from a number of techniques, for example roundhouse kicks and axe kicks go against the principles of Ninjutsu. However, they work perfectly for Tae kwon Do. In that art, though, Ninjutsu's postures are all wrong.
> 
> ...


 
I think it is less of adapting (other arts techniques) to a single art than it is adapting miscelaneous techiniques from various systems based off of a personal preference.  If you or I just jive with the mental/philosophical/physical aspects from one system or have a lop-sided amount of time in one system I think it might cause us to look at new techniques through EPAK or Ninpo colored glasses but for the most part I think that it is based more off of who you are and what you are comfortable with along with your ability to perform a technique in the situation presented.  For those persons dedicated to one school/system they have nothing to compare anything too unless seeing a foreign systems technique they can see similarities or break down the mechanics into their systems movements.

my opinion only and I am tired (almost off shift) so this might not flow so no chip on my shoulder, just my .02.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 28, 2009)

The problem there is that you are phrasing everything around it being a conscious decision, and that is not what you are actually dealing with. That's why I was talking about your unconscious beliefs as to what is powerful in a martial art, and that is not necessarily what you are most experienced in. You may just jive with things consciously, but under pressure, that may or may not be what comes out.

Essentially, it needs to "jive" with your unconscious beliefs in this regard, not your conscious understanding or preference. Ideally, it will be your "prefered" system, but not always. And "a bit of this and a bit of that" approach to cross training is of no use without that base for it to work off of. But forget the idea of this being anything to do with conscious decision making, because that is one of the first things to go under pressure.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 29, 2009)

Personally, I enjoy cross-training because it allows me to test and refine my taijutsu in new circumstances, and against people trained in different ways of doing things. Obviously the intention shouldbe made clear to the other party from the start. To give just one example: joining a judoclub for a few trainingsessions to see what and where you need to step up your training can be a good way of revealing your weak points. Obviously this is not something to be done too often, and certainly not something to be done when still unexperienced, or you'll end up confused and your MA will be weaker for it. Basicly what it can do for the more experienced (read: rooted in his art) practioner, is to force you to apply your art in situations you cannot really simulate in training. What i mean is this: 

You often get instructors giving the narrative of "what to do when attacked by a person of a specific martial art (let's use tae kwon do for an example). you get the following:

The teachers invites his uke to attack him with a "taekwondo kick". Usually the uke will not be properly trained in typical taekwondo kicks, so the resulting kick will almost always be sloppy, probably reinforced by prejudice on account of the uke too (who probably thinks taekwondo is less effective as his own art (or i guess he'd be doing TKD)). Teacher executes countertechnque. After demonstration and explaination, students start to practice this. However, chances are really high most of them are clueless on how to properly deliver a roundhousekick or an axekick (since it's not ninpo, as Chris pointed out).

Obviously, training this way doesn't really give you any meaningful preparation in dealing with a person that has actually trained in TKD. A practioner of TKD can kick fast, alternate the directions of his attacks rapidly, dashes about and can usually deliver quite an impact with a kick too. So, if you really want to see what your art can do for you in such circumstances, train with a real TKDka, and you'll get a much better idea.

clearly, it's just an example, and the same goes for any other other martial art, like Judo, karate or whatever. Point is, it creates opportunities to rediscover your own art, and find ways to adapt it to different circumstances. Clearly, if you're going to do this, you shouldn't go on pretext you're interested in learning the MA you're shamelesly using to further your ninpo training . Truth and honesty matter.


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