# Krav Maga teacher kicked my butt literally



## Joab (Oct 19, 2009)

This happened many years ago thousands of miles away from my current location. It was during a drill where you were supposed to slowly look over your shoulder so as to not telegraph what you were seeing followed by a blow to the person behind you who was about to attack you. The teacher believed I was not performing this correctly, telegraphing my intention, and proceeded to literally kick me in the butt. Is this kind of behaviour considered appropriate in Krav Maga for a teacher? It certainly wasn't to a fellow I worked with who once taught a martial art. He said he would have quit the class, which I did. Another fellow worker said he would have sued the teacher. Is this widespread in Krav Maga, or was this merely one teacher who wasn't very mature?


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## prokarateshop (Oct 19, 2009)

I think people use different techniques to motivate.. this could just be a case where this class was not for you...


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## jks9199 (Oct 19, 2009)

I can't tell from what you've posted...  I can barely figure out what happened.

I've clocked students good, and literally kicked their butts when needed to encourage them to block properly or do a technique properly.  But it's not been done maliciously...  

If the instructor is beating on students solely to beat on them, there's a problem.  But if they're doing it within the framework of legitimate exercises with defined goals, it's called training.


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## Joab (Oct 20, 2009)

prokarateshop said:


> I think people use different techniques to motivate.. this could just be a case where this class was not for you...


 
Well, I don't think the use of humiliation is ever a good way to motivate somebody. Perhaps I should have sued the guy.


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## Joab (Oct 20, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I can't tell from what you've posted... I can barely figure out what happened.
> 
> I don't see how I could make it more clear. While performing a drill in which I looked over my shoulder slowly and than hit somebody behind me who was about to attack me, the instructor, impatient with my telegraphing I was about to hit from my body language kicked me in the butt.
> 
> ...


 
The use of humiliation to teach somebody is not appropriate and in fact highly unprofessional and even illegal.


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## Chris Parker (Oct 20, 2009)

Sorry Joab, but I'm with JKS here. From what I can gather, you were (at least in the instructors eyes) telegraphing your motions, and he chose one particular action to demonstrate the opening you were leaving, and the danger it represented. Now, if you took offence at his chosen target, that is one thing, but unless you were being singled out in front of the entire class, and then kicked in the posterior while they watched and laughed, I would say that your humiliation is your personal take on the action, rather than anything else.

That said, it has been remarked that all communication is in the perception, rather than the intention, so I would have advised to talk to the instructor in question and express your discomfort with his teaching style, then decide if you wanted to continue or not. But you say that this was "many years ago thousands of miles away from my current location", so I am unsure what you expect to get from dredging it up for yourself again now.

So you know, though, within a number of systems (including my own), there are kicks to the buttocks, as well as other strikes and pushes/pressures, so if it just comes down to a discomfort with a part of your (and other peoples) anatomy, then you may need to realise that a good part of martial arts is going beyond what you are currently capable of, and that includes dealing with personal beliefs and values, as well as fears and limitations. Oh, and hitting a student to demonstrate a lack in their technique is nothing new, nor something to be avoided in training. In fact, it can sometimes be the best teaching method for certain situations and personalities, and it is one that I use myself as required (as JKS said, not maliciously, but when it is the best choice). If that is not understood, that is fine, but realise that an instructor is coming from a place of experience that the students do not yet have.

Oh, and re-reading that last post of yours, I am assuming that every second paragraph is your responce? If so, then I would say that your take on JKS' teaching as using humiliation is off. You simply don't understand the teaching methodology here, which is fine, but you are reading into it something which is not there. So I wouldn't dismiss him as a teacher due to your misunderstanding, he specifically gave examples as to when he would use "physical encouragement", and there was no indication of humiliation involved.


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## jks9199 (Oct 20, 2009)

Joab said:


> The use of humiliation to teach somebody is not appropriate and in fact highly unprofessional and even illegal.


Maybe you would have preferred that he punch you in the back of the head instead?  Or kick you in the kidney?

You weren't performing the drill properly.  He demonstrated that to you...  (Incidentally, there are actually quite a few targets in that area that are practical to strike...)

If you didn't like the atmosphere or training methodology, you were right to leave and find somewhere that fits you better.  Personally, I've taken a lot worse embarrassment than a kick in the rump, and found it to be well worth the training I received.  Your mileage may vary...


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## kior (Oct 20, 2009)

I guess it's a hard thing to quantify as it evidently pissed you off but talk of sueing him is absolutely ridiculous IMHO and attitudes like that no doubt do a great deal to encourage the watering down of martial arts that so many people here would bemoan. Without seeing the incident it's hard to comment but in my experience krav instructors try and use an level of force and pressure that is appropriate to the student's ability levels. It sounds like maybe they overestimated a bit in this instance and caused upset as a result but it's in the past so I would try not to worry about it. If you're interested in doing krav again but worried about this then go watch a few classes first, see what the atmosphere's like.


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## Jaspthecat (Oct 29, 2009)

I think if there is an understanding that you will be physically reprimanded should you make an error that's fine.  I personally think your instructor should have warned you of the consequences of not following instruction but if this had been me, I don't think I would have got upset TBH as it would be my expectation to get physically reprimanded not doing as told.  Afterall, it's a contact MA and personally I think you should expect to get hit.

I personally think physical correction works well.  If I drop my guard when doing pad work with my instructor, he will punish me by hitting me across the head with the thai pad (believe me that can hurt) guess what, I keep my hands up!

On the other hand, if the physical contact is out of anger and not correction or is excessive for the situation, that is bang out of order.


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## Joab (Nov 12, 2009)

Jaspthecat said:


> I think if there is an understanding that you will be physically reprimanded should you make an error that's fine. I personally think your instructor should have warned you of the consequences of not following instruction but if this had been me, I don't think I would have got upset TBH as it would be my expectation to get physically reprimanded not doing as told. Afterall, it's a contact MA and personally I think you should expect to get hit.
> 
> I personally think physical correction works well. If I drop my guard when doing pad work with my instructor, he will punish me by hitting me across the head with the thai pad (believe me that can hurt) guess what, I keep my hands up!
> 
> On the other hand, if the physical contact is out of anger and not correction or is excessive for the situation, that is bang out of order.


It had nothing to do with not doing what the instructor told me to do in the sense of being disobedient, but rather not being able to do it correctly. There never was any indication this type of reprimand would ever be instigated. I'm rather appalled by most of the answers to my post, I find it disturbing that the use of humiliation is considered acceptable by many in the martial arts community. I'll make sure this kind of behaviour is not acceptable in any future martial arts school I enroll in before I enroll.


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## xJOHNx (Nov 12, 2009)

A part of martial arts is to leave your ego at the door.

If sensei wants to show everyone a new kata or technique, he always needs someone to show it on. You can't hide behind the fact that you don't want to be humiliated when you should be that person. I've seen grown men come to tears because of the intense pain when pressure points are used. That's humiliating, but they don't care. Because by enduring, they learn. And because they left their ego at the door.

And getting kicked in the butt is not humiliating. A teacher pulling your pants down while yelling: "LOOKY OVERHERE!" that is humiliating or fun. Depends on your persona.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 12, 2009)

Interesting how people can differ in oppinions. In traditional martial arts, humiliations that go far beyond a pat on the lower back are considered a way of breaking the ego of the student. An accomplished martial artists cannot be burdened by concerns about how others feel about him, or be taunted into something they'd best walk away from, or a state of mind unfit for battle. Emotional endurance and avoidance. Just as important as being able to block. In that sense (though probably not the intent of the instructor you mentioned) sometimes to train defense, you have to take a kick to the hind end. 

Of course, if you're looking for a relaxing time of sports, while learning some self defense against street thugs along the way; this will probably be if no interest to you. 

Anyhow, I wish you the best of luck in your quest for a martial sport that allows you to fully maintain your dignity.


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## jks9199 (Nov 12, 2009)

Joab said:


> It had nothing to do with not doing what the instructor told me to do in the sense of being disobedient, but rather not being able to do it correctly. There never was any indication this type of reprimand would ever be instigated. I'm rather appalled by most of the answers to my post, I find it disturbing that the use of humiliation is considered acceptable by many in the martial arts community. I'll make sure this kind of behaviour is not acceptable in any future martial arts school I enroll in before I enroll.


That's your best course.

I think either something important is not being conveyed by your descriptions, or you aren't understanding what many of us are saying.


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## Joab (Nov 20, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> That's your best course.
> 
> I think either something important is not being conveyed by your descriptions, or you aren't understanding what many of us are saying.


 
I agree that something is going wrong here. Yes Krav maga is a contact form, if the teacher had kicked or hit me in a sparring session with him that would be ok. That wasn't the case. I will try this again. The drill was to slowly look over your shoulder, and when you saw somebody about to attack you you were to turn and hit him. There was really nobody to hit, it was a drill. He wasn't satisfied with the way I was turning, telegraphing my intent, and kicked me in the posterior.

Going back to my original question, is this type of action by the teacher acceptable in Krav Maga?


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## Ceicei (Nov 20, 2009)

Joab said:


> I agree that something is going wrong here. Yes Krav maga is a contact form, if the teacher had kicked or hit me in a sparring session with him that would be ok. That wasn't the case. I will try this again. The drill was to slowly look over your shoulder, and when you saw somebody about to attack you you were to turn and hit him. There was really nobody to hit, it was a drill. He wasn't satisfied with the way I was turning, telegraphing my intent, and kicked me in the posterior.
> 
> Going back to my original question, is this type of action by the teacher acceptable in Krav Maga?



Yes, it appears he is trying to teach you not to telegraph.  

With some students given a second chance to try again after that experience, hopefully there would be less telegraphing by turning differently the next time.  With that, perhaps the instructor would have no need for another kick if his original point was understood the second time.

Basically, I think the others who responded upthread were trying to explain that instructors (even in other styles, not just Krav Maga) sometimes will use a physical feedback of some sort in various situations to make their point/lesson that may very well be a life-saver.

- Ceicei


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## Chris Parker (Nov 21, 2009)

Yeah, I would say the same as Ceicei there. It is just a physical method of showing you where your mistake was. By kicking you in the backside, he was showing you that you were giving away your actions, and that could result in you being open to an attack (in this case represented by a kick). He could have punched you in the back of the head...

I think the real issue here is that you are a little over-sensitive to aspects of your own body, and the fact that you were kicked doesn't really bother you so much, nor the idea of a teacher using physical methods. You are, however, fixated on the exact point of contact, and seem to be offended by it.

The thing to realise in your case, then, is that you have some hangups that need dealing with (and you are far from alone in that!), as they are stopping you from seeing what the reality of the situation was. Without getting into what I believe the real issue stems from, my advice is to be aware of it, and recognise that a part of martial art training is to go beyond what you would normally do.

I wish you luck with this.


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## ElfTengu (Dec 7, 2009)

I personally would be motivated to improve, rather than be offended.

If someone can kick you up the **** then they could indeed punch you in the back of the head or kidneys.

And depending upon the individual's learning style, being kicked in the backside is preferable to some people than being sat down and spoonfed the principles of the technique. And remember, no matter how carefully something is explained to you, at some point you will still need to put it into action with the result that you cannot be kicked in the harris or worse.

The regular students at that club would probably be okay with what happened if it was them, so you can either look at it that you were accepted into the group with instantaneous equality, which is a good thing, and quite rare, or that you were prematurely exposed to their particular approach of 'reward or ridicule'.


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## Wey (Dec 8, 2009)

xJOHNx said:


> A part of martial arts is to leave your ego at the door.
> 
> If sensei wants to show everyone a new kata or technique, he always needs someone to show it on. You can't hide behind the fact that you don't want to be humiliated when you should be that person. I've seen grown men come to tears because of the intense pain when pressure points are used. That's humiliating, but they don't care. Because by enduring, they learn. And because they left their ego at the door.
> 
> And getting kicked in the butt is not humiliating. A teacher pulling your pants down while yelling: "LOOKY OVERHERE!" that is humiliating or fun. Depends on your persona.



Good point. 

Like others said as well, maybe that was his form of motivating.


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## 72ronin (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, if it was a toe kick that went between your cheeks and.... lol.

          If it was just a slapping foot on a buttock cheeck then so what..

         Besides, dont be shy to issue a stern "Do you mind".  Whenever something you dont agree with takes place (like the first egsample lol).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 22, 2010)

I think how you are conveying it is hard for us to understand as I am sure that all of us are not in the least bit approving of *humiliation* and or *physical abuse* of a practitioner.  Yet, I am in agreement with jks9199 and Chris Parker that we would have probably needed to be there to give you a more exact impression of what was really going on.  Now to sue over some thing like that is pretty ridiculous and in the end would have been a waste of time and money for both you and the instructor as from the description you certainly would not have received any compensation as there were no damages.  Unless of course you are not telling us that you were physically damaged.  The idea of suing over minor things as someone mentioned earlier has watered down the arts and anyone that was brought up the old school way will definitely agree with that.


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## Kravguy (Feb 2, 2010)

I've been to a few Krav Classes and let me say they are intense and very "contact" oriented, if you find a few shots on the butt hard to take..perhaps Krav isn't for you.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2010)

Joab, I have to say I&#8217;m with jks9199, Chris Parker and Brian R. VanCise here.

You were telegraphing and he may or may not have seen any other way to correct it,

Also xJohnx hit the nail on the head here



xJOHNx said:


> A part of martial arts is to leave your ego at the door.


 
My last Xingyiquan sifu beat the heck out of me sparing and it was damn cool I was not embarrassed or upset. He yelled at me and everyone else form time to time in front of everyone because we were not listening to what he was saying about locking our breathing to our strikes. 

My Taiji sifu (half my size and 20 years older than me) has thrown me on the floor in front of everyone to show me what I was doing wrong and he will not do that to anyone else in class and it is not because he wants to embarrass me it is because he wants to really teach me the style that no one else in class wants to learn beyond form and I am damn glad he does that

My Sanda sifu was prone to tell you exactly what he thought about what you were doing, things like, that was very good, that was horrible, why are you wasting my time, etc. You want to talk telegraphing, he was upset I was telegraphing my strikes while training strikes with trees and the repetition began to hurt a bit and the comments were not all that nice but when I got it right the comment was worth it. 

Bottom-line these Chinese sifu types will kill you with kindness if they care.. and apparently American Xingyiquan sifu types will do it too 

And if you messed up on tech you WERE going to get hit. It is the nature of the beast and different teachers have different approaches to how they will get their message across some good, some bad but in reality if you mess up in class and get kicked in the butt you at least remember what happened and you may not make the same mistake again and it is a whole heck of a lot better than messing up out in the real world and getting beat with in an inch of your life or worse.


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## ElfTengu (Feb 6, 2010)

I'd be more worried if I turned up to a new art as a novice and the instructor COULDN'T kick me in the ****!

I EXPECT it from my superiors, literally or otherwise.

If I train with someone in my regular art who is higher ranked than me but less skilled I am not happy about it, and even though I don't say or do anything about it (or desire a higher rank myself by default), it does leave a nasty taste in my mouth.


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## Hudson69 (Feb 10, 2010)

Your former instructor might be a little crass in how he tries to get a point across but if you have ever been in the military then what happened with you is really nothing of consequence, as I understand your statements.  

Your thoughts about suing over this seems rather weak so maybe Krav, a primarily military dominated system of self defense, is not the one for you.

Good luck with finding a new school.

My .02 only


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## 72ronin (Feb 10, 2010)

To the thread starter, can we have more info? or are you satisfied with the answers given..

For some odd reason im intrigued LOL, (considering the sueing comment) -was it a kick on buttock or a toe kick that entered Coitsville?


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## Finlay (Jan 7, 2016)

I am against humiliation........ But it is true that hard lessons have always been part of martial arts training

In my time training I have been:

Sucker punched in the face by the instuctor of a school
Winded numerous times, usually as a joke by instuctors
Called out cos I wouldn't train with half the skin missing on my foot
Forced to train while hungover, till i threw up
Kicked in the *** many times for many different reasons

And the list goes on, as I am sure it does for everyone here. However I never felt humiliated I just took that I was learning a fighting system from fighting men.

This is one of the issues tha Krav has, it is sometimes seen as a tough fitness class rather than a fighting or self defence class. I guess if I was doing step areobics and the teacher kicked me in the *** I would be upset


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## Transk53 (Jan 8, 2016)

Finlay said:


> I am against humiliation........ But it is true that hard lessons have always been part of martial arts training
> 
> In my time training I have been:
> 
> ...




What happend there?


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## Finlay (Jan 8, 2016)

I attended a national training session in an inside football hall. The floor was like sandpaper to train on. In all fairness I was told to bring taekwondo shoes bit forgot and trained regardless. Twisting for kicks etc on the surface took the skin off my foot I was off for a couple of weeks

On my return I was welcomed with fairly merciless jibbing about being a wimp


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## DaveB (Jan 8, 2016)

Joab

Can you explain why you feel being kicked up the bump is humiliation?

We're people pointing and laughing after? 

I ask because you have used that phrase a couple of times, and though not pleasant I don't really understand what is your humiliating about the situation. Perhaps if you add detail people will see your concern more clearly.


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## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2016)

is Joab going to reply seven years after posting?


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## Transk53 (Jan 8, 2016)

Finlay said:


> I attended a national training session in an inside football hall. The floor was like sandpaper to train on. In all fairness I was told to bring taekwondo
> shoes bit forgot and trained regardless. Twisting for kicks etc on the surface took the skin off my foot I was off for a couple of weeks
> 
> On my return I was welcomed with fairly merciless jibbing about being a wimp



Ah the good old Astro Turf I guess. Had a few skinned knees playing football on that stuff.


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## Tez3 (Jan 8, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Ah the good old Astro Turf I guess. Had a few skinned knees playing football on that stuff.



I've train in a few leisure centre halls where the floor has an anti slip surface, you end up , if you don't wear shoes, with the skin off your feet as Finlay says.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 8, 2016)

We train in rooms with vinyl tile flooring. Over concrete. 
Yes, it's every bit as horid as it sounds.
It's either very slick or very sticky.
You definitely learn to unload the weight from your support leg when you're pivoting...


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## Transk53 (Jan 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I've train in a few leisure centre halls where the floor has an anti slip surface, you end up , if you don't wear shoes, with the skin off your feet as Finlay says.



Yeah sure, played some badminton at the leisure centre where my gym is. It was a bit slippy when a bit over extended. For a minute I thought Finlay was talking about football for mo lol. Anyway, the last time I wanted to train barefoot, I was told not to for hygene reasons. Which is obviously fair enough. Concrete floors though uncovered, are just as harsh wearing trainers, and slippy when some bits are shiny close to the walls.


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