# Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?



## DoubleZ711 (Mar 20, 2009)

I have been looking for a martial art that isn't karate or taekwondo because I just feel like they are really bland art forms since most places teach them, but there isn't much available in my area. However, there is a place nearby that teaches something called  		Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Can someone tell me what the primary focuses of this are? Like striking, grappling, ground work.. etc. Also, if you are familiar with this art, can you tell me if its an actual practical art or if its a slow art like taijiquan. Thanks!


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## bluekey88 (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm a novice in BBT.  It is what is popularly referred to as ninjutsu.  It's based on 9 schools (ryu) of traditional budo arts.  It seems to cover a bit of everything...striking, throws, locks, grappling, weapons, etc.  

I like the art.  It really depends (like in all arts) who the instructor is and how well they teach.

As an aside, I also train TKD...also a fantastic art.  Don't dismiss an art because it might have a competition element...soem of the hardest, most skillful guys I know do or have competed in their chosen arts.

Peace,
Erik


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 20, 2009)

Budo Taijutsu is a fun system to practice in with lots of variety and enjoyment. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Go check out a free class and see if the instructor and environment are for you.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi,

The Bujinkan is headed by Hatsumi Sensei, and as stated teaches from nine seperate traditional Japanese Martial Arts, some of which are ninjutsu, and some of which are samurai systems.

The curriculum will vary from school to school, and teacher to teacher, but will most often include striking (hand/arm strikes, kicks, blocking methods, body strikes, and more), grappling (throws, limb controls, chokes, pins, submissions etc), ground fighting (striking, grappling from the ground, as well as techniques performed from a seated position), a wide range of weaponry (bladed, flexible, impact, projectile, hidden, distraction etc), footwork/body positioning (evasive, offensive, defensive etc), defence against weapon attacks (modern such as knife, baton, gun, traditional such as staff, sword, spear, short sword etc), defence against group attacks, and in most schools, modern self defence (goshinjutsu). In addition, there is a great deal of other knowledge (such as stealth movements, tracking, water techniques, principles of nature, disguise, meteorology etc), so it isn't really something that can be easily described. Even with this list, it really doesn't do anything to give you an idea of the art itself. Honestly, go and see how you feel about the art, the school, and the teacher. It's the only way to know. Enjoy!


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## JadeDragon3 (Mar 20, 2009)

From my observation though this is not a very effective art for modern day.  It is geared more towards fuedal Japan (swords, kama, shuriken, blow guns, wearing the tabi boots (split toe shoe), etc...).  This is why Stephen K. Hayes left and founded his sytem called To Shin Do.  Hayes' sytem is based on his knowledge of Ninjutsu that he learned from Hatsumi Sensei but makes it applicable/practical to modern times.  It is a very good martial art if your looking for a traditional art form.


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## MMcGuirk (Mar 20, 2009)

DoubleZ711 said:


> I have been looking for a martial art that isn't karate or taekwondo because I just feel like they are really bland art forms since most places teach them, but there isn't much available in my area. However, there is a place nearby that teaches something called         Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Can someone tell me what the primary focuses of this are? Like striking, grappling, ground work.. etc. Also, if you are familiar with this art, can you tell me if its an actual practical art or if its a slow art like taijiquan. Thanks!


 

I think you will be the best one to decide if it is pragmatic to you or not.  This school has a lot of history but this doesn't mean it is useful for historical learning only. So far for me, it has covered every aspect of fighting I have seen or even heard and haven't heard of.

There are and have been students from the SAS(Special Air Service), Federal Air Marshalls, body guards and dealings with our own FBI.  In fact, my first teacher's mentor taught the FBI the use of naginata. 

How many naginata do you see on the streets?  My first reaction as a youngster in the art was why?  According to the Bujinkan teacher AND the FBI,  distance, timing and angles in a fight are still as relevent today as they were four hundred years ago. The principles of fighting haven't changed, so the "modernization" to me is just a commercial selling point. The use of the naginata highlighted the difficulty of timing, distancing and angling.  Once they went to unarmed, the principles were easier to apply and understand.

I can't recall which Daikomyosai, but Hatsumi Sensei was given a plaque of appreciation/thanks from the FBI for 20 years of support and teaching. I was shocked they still went to him after all these years but I don't live in Japan so I don't know what goes on there.(I assumed the FBI, like others, trained the "flavor" of the day)

There are only so many ways you can make a fist and deliver a kick. The delivery method and applications of what you learn vary from martial arts.

Only you can decide if it's for you so I wish you good luck.  If you decide you like BBT, then welcome aboard!!


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## Dale Seago (Mar 20, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> . . .not a very effective art for modern day. It is geared more towards fuedal Japan (swords, kama, shuriken, blow guns, wearing the tabi boots (split toe shoe), etc...).


 
No personal disrespect intended, but this appears to be a popular view among people without direct experience of training in Japan with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan.

My very first training over there was on a military mission wherein my commander let me break loose for a couple of days to run down to Noda from Camp Sendai to train, and the instructor I was working with (whom I'd met at a U.S. Tai Kai six months previously) had me doing interesting things with a (non-firing replica) shotgun and submachine gun. That was just over 22 years ago, in January of '87, when SKH was still well known as a Bujinkan instructor.

I've seen plenty of application/adaptation to contemporary weaponry and tactics in training in Japan over the years since then as well. Therefore, for someone to say that "This is why Stephen K. Hayes left and founded his sytem called To Shin Do" is either ignorant or willfully deceptive.

I've heard Hatsumi sensei say on several occasions that a true martial art does not need to fundamentally change simply because technology changes: It simply incorporates the new into the existing knowledge base in a compatible way which will allow the practitioner to make the best use of it. The Bujinkan was doing that long before Hayes left it.



MMcGuirk said:


> There are and have been students from the SAS(Special Air Service), Federal Air Marshalls, body guards and dealings with our own FBI.


 
At the 2003 US Tai Kai in New Jersey, which Hatsumi sensei had previously announced would be the last time he would teach outside Japan, I was in charge of his security detail. My team members included a NYPD detective; a US Marshal; an FBI agent; a couple of military EOD specialists just returned from Afghanistan; and a Secret Service agent. . .all of them Bujinkan practitioners.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> At the 2003 US Tai Kai in New Jersey, which Hatsumi sensei had previously announced would be the last time he would teach outside Japan, I was in charge of his security detail. My team members included a NYPD detective; a US Marshal; an FBI agent; a couple of military EOD specialists just returned from Afghanistan; and a Secret Service agent. . .all of them Bujinkan practitioners.



Sorry for the OT, but is there a special reason why Hatsumi sensei needs such a strong security detail? And given that he is Hatsumi sensei, isn't he more than capable of dealing with a possible attacker?

No disrespect here. I am honestly wondering about this.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 20, 2009)

MMcGuirk said:


> I can't recall which Daikomyosai, but Hatsumi Sensei was given a plaque of appreciation/thanks from the FBI for 20 years of support and teaching.


 
I was there. If my memory is correct, that was at the 2007 Daikomyosai training event in Japan.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 20, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Sorry for the OT, but is there a special reason why Hatsumi sensei needs such a strong security detail? And given that he is Hatsumi sensei, isn't he more than capable of dealing with a possible attacker?


 
Looking at it from a Japanese cultural perspective, it would be a huge embarrassment and loss of face for his hosts if it became necessary for him to do so.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 20, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> At the 2003 US Tai Kai in New Jersey, which Hatsumi sensei had previously announced would be the last time he would teach outside Japan, I was in charge of his security detail. My team members included a NYPD detective; a US Marshal; an FBI agent; a couple of military EOD specialists just returned from Afghanistan; and a Secret Service agent. . .all of them Bujinkan practitioners.



Yes Dale and you did a very good job as I watched how you were working.


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## MMcGuirk (Mar 20, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Sorry for the OT, but is there a special reason why Hatsumi sensei needs such a strong security detail? And given that he is Hatsumi sensei, isn't he more than capable of dealing with a possible attacker?
> 
> No disrespect here. I am honestly wondering about this.


 
And I sometimes wonder who is protecting whom! LOL 

At the 2002 St. Louis (Illinois) Taikai I had some dojo mates part of the event security.  They informed me of a participant who had brought a pair of handguns to the event. Why? We never found out.  Needless to say this was cause for concern and the local police couldn't do anything about it because he could legally carry the firearms.  Needless to say his picture was passed out amongst the security detail and he was watched carefully.  I don't know if he stayed for the rest of the event.

This isn't the first time apparently.  Earlier Taikais involved organizers having to carry hidden firearms also.  Sad, but that's how the world works.  In my own opinion there are always nuts out there wanting to make a name for themselves.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 21, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> Looking at it from a Japanese cultural perspective, it would be a huge embarrassment and loss of face for his hosts if it became necessary for him to do so.



Looking at it like that, it makes sense.
Thanks Dale.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2009)

The other thing to consider is to take a look at what a typical security detail does. They are there to ensure the principle's day goes smoothly, that they are not accosted by unwanted individuals, that cars are there to meet the principle, and to essentially blend in with the surrounds. Although someone like Hatsumi Sensei could "look after himself", as could many others who utilise a security detail, the idea is that potential disruptions are spotted, intercepted, and neutralised before reaching the principle themselves. In this sense, if it got to the point where Hatsumi Sensei was approached and reached by someone (not necessarily an aggressive one, either; it could be an overly friendly person who has read one of his books, or maybe seen a dvd or two, who wants to take more of his time than can reasonably be given), and he was forced to act, then the security team failed. The day was disrupted.

This can be looked at culturally, in terms of loss of face, but should be universal to any professional security detail. And if you were to see one of these details working, if they are doing their job well, you wouldn't notice them. They're not Secret Service (who are there to protect their principle [under more threat than others, admittedly] and do so in part by being obvious, and intimidating. But if you watch them work well, there are many times when watching someone like the President where even the Secret Service do a great job of blending in until required.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 21, 2009)

Excellent post, Chris, and absolutely correct.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks, Dale.

Oh, and as for "From my observation though this is not a very effective art for modern day. It is geared more towards fuedal Japan (swords, kama, shuriken, blow guns, wearing the tabi boots (split toe shoe), etc...). (posted by JadeDragon3)", I have always felt that the art (techniques) is less important than the method of training. Yes, the Bujinkan (and other Ninjutsu organisations) techniques can be lookes upon as being less than appropriate for today, and would certainly be if only trained as written. But that's not the way they're trained. The art is alive because it is adapted, utilising the strategies, tactics, and principles of the ancient bodies of knowledge, allowing modern practitioners to find answers to modern dilemmas. 

The trick is to find a teacher who understands how to fight in ancient Japan, and on your particular countries modern streets, and what the difference between them is.


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## JadeDragon3 (Mar 23, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> No personal disrespect intended, but this appears to be a popular view among people without direct experience of training in Japan with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan.
> 
> My very first training over there was on a military mission wherein my commander let me break loose for a couple of days to run down to Noda from Camp Sendai to train, and the instructor I was working with (whom I'd met at a U.S. Tai Kai six months previously) had me doing interesting things with a (non-firing replica) shotgun and submachine gun. That was just over 22 years ago, in January of '87, when SKH was still well known as a Bujinkan instructor.
> 
> ...


 

Stephen K. Hayes said this himself.  Here is a quote from his web site......

"An-shu Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do martial arts training leads to the ability to live life fully, fearlessly, and freely. Ours is a thorough system of personal preparation for facing the kinds of conflict and opposition that can surprise us in the course of daily life. _To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages_. At the same time, our training program is built around a *very modern approach* to handling the kind of threats and confrontations most likely *in our own contemporary culture*."

So I'm not ignorant nor am I willfully deceptive.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 23, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Stephen K. Hayes said this himself.  Here is a quote from his web site......
> 
> "An-shu Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do martial arts training leads to the ability to live life fully, fearlessly, and freely. Ours is a thorough system of personal preparation for facing the kinds of conflict and opposition that can surprise us in the course of daily life. _To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages_. At the same time, our training program is built around a *very modern approach* to handling the kind of threats and confrontations most likely *in our own contemporary culture*."
> 
> So I'm not ignorant nor am I willfully deceptive.



Bear in mind a big part of how Hayes "modernized the art" was by "giving" blackbelts in Toshindo to Taekwondo schools after an expensive 2 day seminar and saying "you are now Toshindo".   I agree, doing THAT is a modern concept, not traditional.

well, ok...the one "modern thing" I'll give the quest centers, although to be fair I have seen a number of Bujinkan schools, including the one I train at that do this, is that they don't just train against the taijutsu punch, they train against modern jabs, hooks, crosses, etc.


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## JadeDragon3 (Mar 23, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Bear in mind a big part of how Hayes "modernized the art" was by "giving" blackbelts in Toshindo to Taekwondo schools after an expensive 2 day seminar and saying "you are now Toshindo". I agree, doing THAT is a modern concept, not traditional.
> 
> well, ok...the one "modern thing" I'll give the quest centers, although to be fair I have seen a number of Bujinkan schools, including the one I train at that do this, is that they don't just train against the taijutsu punch, they train against modern jabs, hooks, crosses, etc.


 

Thats crazy. Giving TSD bb's to TKD students. Has Hayes sold out?

Does anyone know the status of Hayes and Hatsumi's relationship?  Are they friends and still talk or do they not talk at all?  Was the split bitter?


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## MMcGuirk (Mar 23, 2009)

Hayes is no longer recognized as a member of Bujinkan for a while now.  He had been doing his own thing for years.  I'm not going into details here. There are plenty of other sites that will rehash this if it's really that important to anyone.

I'm only posting this for the OP of looking for a Bujinkan dojo.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 23, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Stephen K. Hayes said this himself. Here is a quote from his web site......
> 
> . . .So I'm not ignorant nor am I willfully deceptive.


 
My comment still stands. It just doesn't necessarily apply to you.

:wink1:


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## JadeDragon3 (Mar 23, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> My comment still stands. It just doesn't necessarily apply to you.
> 
> :wink1:


 

Okay......lol.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 23, 2009)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Thats crazy. Giving TSD bb's to TKD students. Has Hayes sold out?
> 
> Does anyone know the status of Hayes and Hatsumi's relationship?  Are they friends and still talk or do they not talk at all?  Was the split bitter?



Search the site for the info its been discussed to death, and, FWIW, the status of their relationship depends who you talk to.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 23, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> . . .and, FWIW, the status of their relationship depends who you talk to.


 
True enough. For the position of the Bujinkan, as presented in Japan, see this article by Japan resident Don Roley:

http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html

He includes a direct quote from the website of the Hombu Administrator, Jyoji Ohashi, who also happens to be the person who removed SKH's name plaque from the judan name board at Hatsumi sensei's direction.


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## stephen (Mar 23, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> ... is that they don't just train against the taijutsu punch, they train against modern jabs, hooks, crosses, etc.



I know what you're trying to say, I just wanted to point out to the other readers that all of these things, done with proper body mechanics, are taijutsu as well.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 23, 2009)

stephen said:


> I know what you're trying to say, I just wanted to point out to the other readers that all of these things, done with proper body mechanics, are taijutsu as well.



True, my statement was by and large based on the fact that when asked "how is toshindo modern" the # 1 answer that seems to come up is "we train against modern attacks not just straight punches".  Thats all I was getting at.


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## KageMusha (Mar 26, 2009)

Cryo,

Don't forget that the other great thing that Hayes did was keep the Godai in the curruculum.  Most other Bujinkan took that out.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 26, 2009)

KageMusha said:


> Cryo,
> 
> Don't forget that the other great thing that Hayes did was keep the Godai in the curruculum.  Most other Bujinkan took that out.



You sort of have that backwards: He put it in the curriculum. One of the things that surprised other Americans going to Japan in the early '80s after being exposed to the Bujinkan via SKH's writing or direct instruction was the fact that when they asked about "elemental" feelings & techniques, the Japanese had no idea what they were talking about.


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## MMcGuirk (Mar 26, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> You sort of have that backwards: He put it in the curriculum. One of the things that surprised other Americans going to Japan in the early '80s after being exposed to the Bujinkan via SKH's writing or direct instruction was the fact that when they asked about "elemental" feelings & techniques, the Japanese had no idea what they were talking about.


 
That's the same answer I got from a native Japanese speaker I train with.  He said the "Godai" was just a method of counting and Hatsumi Sensei could have used the word apple, banana, orange.  I in no way understood this but an American living in Japan for years also explained this to me using the analogy of the days of the week:  Monday, Tuesday.....


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## KageMusha (Mar 27, 2009)

I was actually being sarcastic.  The dojo that Cryo and myself train at make fun of it all the time.  

When I first started my training in the Bujinkan several years ago, I asked about it and someone from our dojo thought that he would be funny and told me to sign up for martial talk and ask them about it.  Of course I listened to a higher ranking student since he should know best.  So I asked about it here and it started a friggin war.  His way of welcoming me to the Bujinkan.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 27, 2009)

Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 27, 2009)

KageMusha said:


> When I first started my training in the Bujinkan several years ago, I asked about it and someone from our dojo thought that he would be funny and told me to sign up for martial talk and ask them about it.  Of course I listened to a higher ranking student since he should know best.  So I asked about it here and it started a friggin war.  His way of welcoming me to the Bujinkan.



I'm a dick, what can I say.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 27, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Are the gogyo (chi no kata, hi no kata...ect) traditional kata or things Hayes created?



Do you mean Sanshin?  I personally am not familiar with Gogyo, and have only heard of the Chi, Hi, Sui etc used in the Sanshin and Hayes Godai techniques... but thats not to say it doesn't exist.


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## KageMusha (Mar 27, 2009)

Cryo,

I was trying to not mention that you were the jerk that set me up.

As for the Gogyo, from a book I have that I think Jack Hoban wrote, the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing, just 2 different ways of saying it.  Of course who knows how long ago the book was written and Hoban may have still been under Hayes at the time.


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## kakuma (Mar 27, 2009)

Hello All,

As kagemusha has stated the gogyo and sanshin are the same thing. I have even heard reference that the gogyo is used when actually studying these katas against an opponent and it is considered sanshin when you are not. But there is no solid basis for this interpretation just what I have heard.

As for as being traditional... these katas are not located in any of the densho. It has been said that Hatsumi Sensei created these 5 katas to teach students the principles of basic striking and movement that one trains within the different ryu-ha. 

We don't practice them in general within the Jinenkan. However, at my dojo I still use them as a basic guideline to assist new students in proper basics for movement and striking. In my opinion the katas are essential to understand proper striking techniques within one's taijutsu.

To answer Himura Kenshin's question... Hayes teaching of godai is a different aspect and is based more from his Tibetan philosophy which are strongly talked about and referenced in his early books.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah, it has been suggested that the Gogyo no kata, also known as the Sanshin no kata, also known as the Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no kata may have been originated by Hatsumi Sensei, but he has also always taught them as part of the original Japanese Martial Arts. The Kihon Happo, on the other hand, were very likely created by Takamatsu Sensei for Hatsumi to have something to practice during the week.

As for where they are placed today, they are most often associated with the Gyokko Ryu, and are part of the Kihon Gata (before the scroll proper). This section also includes the Kamae, and a three part exercise in basic Muto Dori, known as Muto Taihenjutsu. It has been said, though, that each school has it's own variation of Kihon Happo, and Sanshin no Kata, with the Gyokko Ryu version simply being the best known.

Oh, and in terms of the names, Gogyo refers to 5 shapes, or forms (Gyo can also be read as Kata), Gokei refers to 5 Worlds, and Godai is 5 Elements. From what I understand, these terms can be used almost interchangably, depending on the ryu in question.


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## George Kohler (Mar 28, 2009)

As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono. There are several names for this kata and I'll give sources: 
1. Shoshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#21021;&#24515;&#20043;&#22411;[/FONT] Beginning Heart Forms) - Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki (TCJRnM).
2. Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#20116;&#34892;&#12398;&#22411;[/FONT] Five Pattern Forms) - TCJRnM. 
3. Goshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#24735;&#24515;&#12398;&#22411;[/FONT] Enlightened Heart Forms) - TCJRnM; Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei). 
4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#21021;&#24515;&#20116;&#24418;&#20116;&#34892;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#12398;&#22411;[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms) - Bufu Newsletter (Tanemura Sensei). 
5. Sanshin no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#19977;&#24515;&#20043;&#22411;[/FONT] Three Hearts Forms) - Ishizuka's curriculum; Quest Gyokko-ryu video (Hatsumi Sensei); Bujin Newsletter #8 (Hatsumi Sensei).
6. (?) Godai no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#20116;&#22823;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#20043;&#22411;[/FONT] Five Elements Forms) - Hatsumi Sensei (Note: Im not sure if this was in reference to the Sanshin no Kata forms see below quote). 

Below is Ben Cole's translation of a quote from Hatsumi Sensei.


> The first is learning a technique. The second is to understand the techniques through practice. And the third is to discard those very techniques. If you understand this, you understand the Sanshin, which is the beginning of every thing I teach.... The beginning is not the fire, water, wind, earth and emptyness  the Godai no kata. Everything begins with the Sanshin.


 
As for Sanshin, I've heard several different ideas: 
1. Move with the spirit of a three year old.
2. See above quote.
3. Three different approaches (Note: I might have the first and second reversed):
- Doing the kata in place (Shoshin no Kata)
- Moving forward (Gogyo no Kata)
- Doing it against an opponent (Goshin no Kata)
4. Referred to body, mind and spirit

It should be noted that Gyo ([FONT=&quot]&#34892;[/FONT]) has different meanings in Japanese and in Chinese. And in some Japanese dictionaries Gogyo refers to the five elements of traditional Chinese philosophy. 
In Japanese Gyo refers to:
-Going
-Journey
In Chinese Gyo refers to: 
-A road.
-To walk, to go, to proceed, to continue.
-To traverse in a fixed pattern, such as an orbit.
-To travel; a trip.
-To do, to perform, to practice, to carry out, to function, to act
-To activate, to set into motion, to put into practice. To do moral or religious practice.
-Conduct, behavior, actions, etc.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
-[FONT=&quot][/FONT]A row, a line, a series.
-To leave, depart, separate from.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 28, 2009)

Ah I see. Thanks for the info.


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## George Kohler (Mar 28, 2009)

George Kohler said:


> 4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#21021;&#24515;&#20116;&#24418;&#20116;&#34892;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#12398;&#22411;[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Forms Five Elements Forms)



I want to correct this:

4. Shoshin Gokei Gogyo no Kata ([FONT=&quot]&#21021;&#24515;&#20116;&#24418;&#20116;&#34892;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#12398;&#22411;[/FONT] Beginning Heart Five Pattern Five Movement Forms)

Number 4 should not be referred as elements since the five elements it refers to is Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water. A little different than Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky, which is what we are referring to.


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## kakuma (Mar 28, 2009)

George Kohler said:


> As far as I know this kata was taught by Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei as kuden from Gyokko-ryu and is not in any densho or makimono.



George is correct. This information is not located in the densho of Gyokko Ryu. Any addition has been recent and is not part of the orginal makimono. 

This is the first that I have heard that it was kuden taught from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei.


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