# Machida admits to "banned substance" and is removed from UFC card



## punisher73 (Apr 15, 2016)

I always have this issue with the news media equating all "PED's" with steroids.  In this case, Lyoto Machida used the banned substance "7-keto-DHEA" which was just banned last year.  If people are actually familiar with the substance, you can buy it at any health food store and many grocery stores.  It's a health food supplement.

But, reading the news articles, they lump his "use" in with illegal drugs and other illegal substances. 

Thoughts?

Lyoto Machida, Jon Jones and six other fighters who let fans down

Lyoto Machida admits using banned substance, Dan Henderson fight cancelled


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2016)

Banned is banned. It's his responsibility to know and comply with the rules.
The rest is just splitting hairs.


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## Tez3 (Apr 15, 2016)

Certain cough medicines are banned for use by athletes ( not just MMA, the Olympics as well), just because you buy them over the counter doesn't make them any less performance enhancing or banned.
Criminal law may not ban drugs used by athletes because they are looking at different reasons to ban, illegal as declared by sporting governing bodies is still illegal.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 15, 2016)

One of the big problems with places that sell health products, supplements, etc. is that this particular industry really is not regulated by the FDA.  Meaning they can put all kinds of stuff in the product that may be banned by an athletic commission, sport, etc.  A lot of products just awhile ago had basically "speed" in them. (not sure if they still do)  If you are putting supplements in your body read carefully and investigate what you are putting into your system.  This is endemic in the supplement market.

So DD has it right in that if an athletic commission bans it then it is on the athlete to know about it and stop using that product.
This is all on Machida.


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## Danny T (Apr 15, 2016)

They are professionals and are responsible to know the rules/laws that govern their job same as in any other profession. 
And there are consequences for breaking the rules.


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## marques (Apr 15, 2016)

With the other topic 'MMA ban' in mind, why ban this (dangerous?) substances?
If it was authorised the science in this field could develop much faster.
Just throwing wood in the fire.


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## Tez3 (Apr 15, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One of the big problems with places that sell health products, supplements, etc. is that this particular industry really is not regulated by the FDA.  Meaning they can put all kinds of stuff in the product that may be banned by an athletic commission, sport, etc.  A lot of products just awhile ago had basically "speed" in them. (not sure if they still do)  If you are putting supplements in your body read carefully and investigate what you are putting into your system.  This is endemic in the supplement market.
> 
> So DD has it right in that if an athletic commission bans it then it is on the athlete to know about it and stop using that product.
> This is all on Machida.



In the UK and Europe supplements etc are regulated. Manufacturers cannot put what they like in anything. However that doesn't mean that banned by sports and athletic authorities products aren't available, it means that coaches and athletes have to be aware of what they are taking.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 15, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One of the big problems with places that sell health products, supplements, etc. is that this particular industry really is not regulated by the FDA.  Meaning they can put all kinds of stuff in the product that may be banned by an athletic commission, sport, etc.  A lot of products just awhile ago had basically "speed" in them. (not sure if they still do)  If you are putting supplements in your body read carefully and investigate what you are putting into your system.  This is endemic in the supplement market.
> 
> So DD has it right in that if an athletic commission bans it then it is on the athlete to know about it and stop using that product.
> This is all on Machida.


Unfortunately (and this is not necessarily the case for Machida), even if you do research it you may not know fully what ingredients are in a supplement. Many of them won't mention that something is in it, or just completely lie and tell you x is not in it while it actually is, or vice versa.


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## Tez3 (Apr 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Unfortunately (and this is not necessarily the case for Machida), even if you do research it you may not know fully what ingredients are in a supplement. Many of them won't mention that something is in it, or just completely lie and tell you x is not in it while it actually is, or vice versa.



Then you buy from a source that you know doesn't have those 'extras' in ie from a country that regulates what is put in the supplements and tests them to make sure the law is being adhered too.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 15, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Then you buy from a source that you know doesn't have those 'extras' in ie from a country that regulates what is put in the supplements and tests them to make sure the law is being adhered too.


For professional athletes this makes sense, and it is what they should be doing. Unfortunately, it is an issue for the mass population, as a lot of the unknown sources have health issues, and most people have no idea that they do not disclose everything. A professional athlete should know this, but I doubt all of them do.


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## Tez3 (Apr 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> For professional athletes this makes sense, and it is what they should be doing. Unfortunately, it is an issue for the mass population, as a lot of the unknown sources have health issues, and most people have no idea that they do not disclose everything. A professional athlete should know this, but I doubt all of them do.



Relatively simple these days to buy from abroad.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 15, 2016)

Only if you are aware of the issue, which many people do not.


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## Tez3 (Apr 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Only if you are aware of the issue, which many people do not.



Ignorance is no excuse.


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## Danny T (Apr 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> For professional athletes this makes sense, and it is what they should be doing. Unfortunately, it is an issue for the mass population, as a lot of the unknown sources have health issues, and most people have no idea that they do not disclose everything. A professional athlete should know this, but I doubt all of them do.


Why does this make sense for a professional yet not others?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Unfortunately (and this is not necessarily the case for Machida), even if you do research it you may not know fully what ingredients are in a supplement. Many of them won't mention that something is in it, or just completely lie and tell you x is not in it while it actually is, or vice versa.



While this is true in the end the responsibility falls on the athlete to know what they put in their body.  They will be the ones affected if they cannot fight due to having banned ingredients in their body.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 15, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Why does this make sense for a professional yet not others?


For a professional athlete, it is on their mind and something that they know they have to look into to keep their career. For the average Joe, if a doctor tells them it is ok to take a substance, there is no reason for them to doubt what their doctor is saying. And many doctors have a habit of recommending substances while not actually knowing every ingredient involved.


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## Steve (Apr 15, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> While this is true in the end the responsibility falls on the athlete to know what they put in their body.  They will be the ones affected if they cannot fight due to having banned ingredients in their body.


Agree to an extent, but also understand that these guys are not doctors. They're athletes.  While I agree that they are accountable, at some point nutrition and sports medicine becomes voodoo and witchcraft for all these athletes know about the stuff.  They are told by people they trust to take this, eat that, jump this, lift that.  In a sport where the slightest physical edge can be the difference, I don't know that it's possible to fully know or understand what you're ingesting all the time.


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> For a professional athlete, it is on their mind and something that they know they have to look into to keep their career. For the average Joe, if a doctor tells them it is ok to take a substance, there is no reason for them to doubt what their doctor is saying. And many doctors have a habit of recommending substances while not actually knowing every ingredient involved.



I'm not sure what you mean. If you go to a doctor here you will only be prescribed what you need for your illness or condition, you don't get prescriptions for anything else. You will get what the doctor considers best you don't get to choose what you want. I've seen the ads in America magazines that press you to tell the doctor what drug you want, it doesn't work like that here. You get exactly what the doctor thinks you should have, even in private medicine.  Even with that you should always look up what you are taking and the possible side effects.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 16, 2016)

Here many people will ask their doctors if they should take any supplements (and their doctor may make a suggestion) or ask if they can continue taking x supplement that they currently take, or be told by their doctor to take x supplement. They assume it is healthy if their doctor says it is, but oftentimes it is not because the company making it is lying about what is in it, so separate research won't really help


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## Danny T (Apr 16, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Here many people will ask their doctors if they should take any supplements (and their doctor may make a suggestion) or ask if they can continue taking x supplement that they currently take, or be told by their doctor to take x supplement. They assume it is healthy if their doctor says it is, but oftentimes it is not because the company making it is lying about what is in it, so separate research won't really help


Just because a lot of people are negligent doesn't negate their responsibility to themselves to ask questions or research. 
How does one being a professional change that responsibility vs a non professional?
A friend comes to you and says I know you have been working out hard and trying to drop some weight here use these supplements they will help. Do you take them, if so it's on you.
Same scenario but you ask your doctor about taking the supplements and he says most supplements are good and can't hurt with the weight loss. So you take them, it is still on you. 
You are responsible for what you put into your body. No one else is.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2016)

Steve said:


> Agree to an extent, but also understand that these guys are not doctors. They're athletes.  While I agree that they are accountable, at some point nutrition and sports medicine becomes voodoo and witchcraft for all these athletes know about the stuff.  They are told by people they trust to take this, eat that, jump this, lift that.  In a sport where the slightest physical edge can be the difference, I don't know that it's possible to fully know or understand what you're ingesting all the time.


*
True they are not doctors, dieticians, etc*. but in the end they jeopardize their career by just ingesting anything.  These athletes need to be smart.  Having worked and lived around Collegiate and Professional athletes and being an athlete myself I totally understand the affects of friends, trainers, etc. saying take this as well as the athletes mindset of wanting to take, do just about anything to get an edge.  The allure of anything that will give you an edge is almost unstoppable when large sums of money become involved and also when you age.  Yet, professional athletes around the world have to work within their sports rules and understand them so that they can compete.  *If they screw it up in mma they won't be working and making any money so the onus is on them to really be smart about this!*


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## Steve (Apr 16, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *True they are not doctors, dieticians, etc*. but in the end they jeopardize their career by just ingesting anything.  These athletes need to be smart.  Having worked and lived around Collegiate and Professional athletes and being an athlete myself I totally understand the affects of friends, trainers, etc. saying take this as well as the athletes mindset of wanting to take, do just about anything to get an edge.  The allure of anything that will give you an edge is almost unstoppable when large sums of money become involved and also when you age.  Yet, professional athletes around the world have to work within their sports rules and understand them so that they can compete.  *If they screw it up in mma they won't be working and making any money so the onus is on them to really be smart about this!*


All of that is true.  And also, There is a lot of information out there and these guys ultimately have to trust people who are doctors, dietitians, etc.   I agree that the person with the most at stake is the athlete.   And I would also agree that there are some willing to break the rules for an edge.   

Ultimately, I'm simply saying I empathize with these guys.   they don't teach themselves Mma; they hire a coach or coaches.   And provided they have confidence pin that coach, they typically do what the coach says,    They aren't nutritionists.  Rather, they often pay some to be their expert.   And provided they have confidence in that person, they will likely focus on more pressing matters.

We do it too.   If I need medical advice, I go to a trained medical professional.   When I need an electrician, I hire one.   It's about bandwidth.   We can't know everything.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 16, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Just because a lot of people are negligent doesn't negate their responsibility to themselves to ask questions or research.
> How does one being a professional change that responsibility vs a non professional?
> A friend comes to you and says I know you have been working out hard and trying to drop some weight here use these supplements they will help. Do you take them, if so it's on you.
> Same scenario but you ask your doctor about taking the supplements and he says most supplements are good and can't hurt with the weight loss. So you take them, it is still on you.
> You are responsible for what you put into your body. No one else is.


The issue is not with them doing not doing the research though. If a doctor recommends a supplement, they research it, find out what's supposed to be in it and it's not what is actually in it, how is that their fault? Do you expect people to have knowledge that the industry lies, and then know how to test it themselves on top of that?


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you expect people to have knowledge that the industry lies, and then know how to test it themselves on top of that?



Who's industry lies? If a countrys does then as I have said use the products from a country that legislates and checks that the stuff in the box is what is actually in there. In the UK supplements come under food regulations ( they are medicinal nor are they drugs) and also advertising law this means they are subject to the _Trade Descriptions Act 1968_, _Food Labelling Regulations 1996 _and_ the Food Safety Act 1990._

if a doctor is suggesting you need supplements when you are healthy, fit and have a good diet I'd be asking why anyway. There is nothing you actually *need* to take.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 16, 2016)

Tez-You are still assuming the average person is aware that the companies making the supplements are lying. And you may ask why, but a lot of people have enough faith in their doctors that it does not occur to them to ask why. If the professional tells them to do something, they do it.


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## Tez3 (Apr 16, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Tez-You are still assuming the average person is aware that the companies making the supplements are lying. And you may ask why, but a lot of people have enough faith in their doctors that it does not occur to them to ask why. If the professional tells them to do something, they do it.



You are assuming that supplement companies do lie about what is in their product, I think you'll find that the standard excuse used by athletes when caught taking illegal substances is that there must be something in the supplements etc that they took unwittingly. It's an old excuse. The truth is more likely given that adding 'extras' to supplements is expensive, the supplements are exactly what it says on the tin and the athlete has been taking illegal substances all too knowingly.


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## jks9199 (Apr 16, 2016)

The issue can get very complicated, very quickly -- especially when substances sometimes have several legitimate names.  It is indeed on the athlete and his/her coaching team to know what's banned, and make sure that they don't accidentally/unintentionally take something on the banned list.  And to keep up to date on the banned lists for their sport, too.  I don't recall the details off the top of my head, but there was an Olympic athlete that made the news because they took an over the counter cold med that had been given to them by the med staff at the event -- but it contained a banned substance. 

So... Yeah, this is on Machida, etc.  But he seems to have dealt with it pretty responsibly, so he gets credit for that too.


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## Buka (Apr 16, 2016)

I wonder if the language barrier and living in another country has anything to do with it?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 16, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You are assuming that supplement companies do lie about what is in their product, I think you'll find that the standard excuse used by athletes when caught taking illegal substances is that there must be something in the supplements etc that they took unwittingly. It's an old excuse. The truth is more likely given that adding 'extras' to supplements is expensive, the supplements are exactly what it says on the tin and the athlete has been taking illegal substances all too knowingly.


Once again, I agree with you regarding athletes, and am referring to the average person. In the United States, they do lie about what is in supplements. If you want, I can find some resources explaining it and pm them to you. If not, there's no real point in continuing this debate since it's becoming pretty circular. Still enjoyed it though


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Once again, I agree with you regarding athletes, and am referring to the average person. In the United States, they do lie about what is in supplements. If you want, I can find some resources explaining it and pm them to you. If not, there's no real point in continuing this debate since it's becoming pretty circular. Still enjoyed it though



Why do you get to decide the discussion isn't worth going on with? and why do you assume I don't know anything?

We aren't talking about the 'average person' we are talking about athletes ( and incidentally most of the MMA people caught taking illegal substances have actually been taking 'recreational' drugs rather than performance enhancing drugs though they may well in fact most likely have been taking them as well)


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## Tgace (Apr 17, 2016)

The whole performance enhancing substance thing is starting to get out of hand. Steroids and medical procedures? That's one thing. Stuff you can buy from the grocery store? That's another IMO....

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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2016)

Tgace said:


> Stuff you can buy from the grocery store? That's another IMO....



Vegetables?


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## Tgace (Apr 17, 2016)

My supermarket has a fully stocked health food/athletic supplements section.

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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2016)

I get to decide and so can you  either person in a conversation can end it at any time. 
I'm not assuming you don't know anything about the topic. We just have a fundamental disagreement that won't change even if we continue.
And again, I agree with you about athletes, and my comments were about the average person.


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## Tez3 (Apr 17, 2016)

My local shop is a farm shop so fresh meat and veg but no supplements, not even for the animals. We have a village shop up the dale and a post office in the pub though.


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## punisher73 (Apr 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Banned is banned. It's his responsibility to know and comply with the rules.
> The rest is just splitting hairs.


I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year.  If it's banned, it's banned.

My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods.  In the media PED=steroid.  Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year.  If it's banned, it's banned.
> 
> My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods.  In the media PED=steroid.  Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.



That's the job of the regulatory agency - to regulate. 
It's my job to keep up with the rules that regulate my practice in the ER. If I don't, it's my ***. Or at least my job. 
It's his job to keep up with the rules that regulate his sport. If he doesn't, it's his ***. Or at least his job.


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## Tez3 (Apr 18, 2016)

punisher73 said:


> I'm not disagreeing with the fact that they decided to ban the substance DURING competition this year.  If it's banned, it's banned.
> 
> My issue is with lumping a health food substance in with steriods and making it seem that Machida was using steriods.  In the media PED=steroid.  Many cough/cold medicines area also "banned subtances" in the Olympics, the media and the general public needs to be educated on what PED actually means and understand that they aren't all steroids.



I haven't read that the banned substances he took were steroids, I think it's going to depend on what you read from what source. When an athlete has taken something that's banned for example 'cough medicine' which is usually pseudoephedrine that's what has been reported usually with a description of what the substance does and is. We've had many articles about blood doping, 'steroids' and other performance enhancing drugs in the mainstream media. it's been a big issue recently much discussed in the newspapers and on television programmes. the Albert Salazar case has had a lot of publicity here.
How easy is it to be a drugs cheat in sport? - BBC News


I've always been bemused that pseudoephedrine is banned because it's performance enhancing yet I have to fo to bed if I want to take anything with it in it as it knocks me out, I sell minutes after taking it for hours.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 18, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I've always been bemused that pseudoephedrine is banned because it's performance enhancing yet I have to fo to bed if I want to take anything with it in it as it knocks me out, I sell minutes after taking it for hours.



Totally off-topic, but most of these sorts of OTC cold medicines also include some variety of antihistamine. It's that which results in going sleepy time bye bye, for the most part. It _*is*_ possible to have an idiosyncratic response and become sleepy from pseudoephedrine, but it's not at all common.


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## punisher73 (Apr 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's the job of the regulatory agency - to regulate.
> It's my job to keep up with the rules that regulate my practice in the ER. If I don't, it's my ***. Or at least my job.
> It's his job to keep up with the rules that regulate his sport. If he doesn't, it's his ***. Or at least his job.



Still not understanding what I am trying to say.  I have NO ISSUE with what the regulatory agency says is banned.  I have NO ISSUE with whatever discipline is given to Machida.  It was ok last year, this year it's banned.  He admitted to using the supplement.  Again, NO ISSUES with this.

My complaint is the news media (apparantly the american news media since Tez has pointed out that theirs doesn't equate ped=steroids) trying to make news and equate a health food supplement to steroids.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

I've just had a trawl through Google looking for American news sites and the story of Machida, every one I read said he'd admitted taking a banned substance and was banned though the penalty was actually to be decided. Every article just said 'banned substance' none of them were equating supplements with steroids.. This is an example http://www.foxsports.com/ufc/story/...ubstance-dan-henderson-fight-cancelled-041316
This one states what he took , how it's classified and Machida's explanation he took it in a supplement. They are giving his excuse not saying anything about supplements. Lyoto Machida apologizes for UFC removal, says he was unaware substance banned


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## Buka (Apr 19, 2016)

For a look at the flip side of the drug testing issue -

Latest Kimbo Slice booking proves that, as long as we watch, anything goes in Bellator


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Well Kimbo Slice, what do people expect, not really an MMA fighter more a brawler who is cashing in on his size etc.


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## Buka (Apr 19, 2016)

Yes, but he fights in MMA, gets paid for it, too. A professional MMA fighter.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Buka said:


> Yes, but he fights in MMA, gets paid for it, too. A professional MMA fighter.



Nah, he get paid to brawl, so he's a professional brawler. He's not an MMA fighter until he shows some skill in MMA.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 19, 2016)

Hairs, we are here to split you.

Kimbo Slice fought in the UFC. He got paid for it. How can you not, then, classify him as a professional MMA fighter?


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hairs, we are here to split you.
> 
> Kimbo Slice fought in the UFC. He got paid for it. How can you not, then, classify him as a professional MMA fighter?



Because he has very little skill and is a brawler? he is a paid UFC brawler lol.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Because he has very little skill and is a brawler? he is a paid UFC brawler lol.



The UFC has others who are (in the opinion of various people) not very skilled, and the entire arena of MMA competition could easily be labeled brawling.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> The UFC has others who are (in the opinion of various people) not very skilled, and the entire arena of MMA competition could easily be labeled brawling.



Every article about him describes him as a 'backyard' brawler lol, everyone knows that's what he is including him. He's entertaining, puts bums on seats which is what every promotion wants, he gets paid so it's win win except for the sport of MMA, it loses.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 19, 2016)

Actually, Kimbo has improved his mma game dramatically in the last two years.  I believe he currently trains with ATA or Americas Top Team one of the better mma training groups in the states.


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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

He's also called for steroids to be allowed.  If he has to take steroids to fight then he's also a cheat.


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## Tgace (Apr 19, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> He's also called for steroids to be allowed.  If he has to take steroids to fight then he's also a cheat.


But I didn't think strength or size mattered as long as you have good technique. [emoji12] 

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## Tez3 (Apr 19, 2016)

Tgace said:


> But I didn't think strength or size mattered as long as you have good technique. [emoji12]
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



Well yes, but look who wanted steroids made legal lol.


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## Tames D (Apr 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Nah, he get paid to brawl, so he's a professional brawler. He's not an MMA fighter until he shows some skill in MMA.


He doesn't have to have skill to compete in MMA. Like you said in the McGregor thread:* "It's just show business, folks."*


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