# TSD Breathing



## dancingalone (Oct 10, 2011)

Could someone explain the theory behind kihap in Tang Soo Do?  One of my students who came from Tang Soo Do likes to use 'Chook, Cha' on quick 2 count combinations such as outside block, reverse punch, but he couldn't explain WHY he was taught to do it this way.  He did explain that he was told the sounds in TSD were important much like they can be in some forms of Okinawan karate or Chinese kung fu.


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## cdunn (Oct 10, 2011)

Breathing is one of the elements that has been heavily gripped by ryu-pa, I suspect. Unfortunately, I don't have a personal copy of Hwang Kee's manual, but I don't recall anything specific off hand in it relating to breathing. 

At our dojang, we are taught that the breathing with the techniques, exhaling with execution, permits the body to relax and deliver maximum effort, while the audibly voiced kihap additionally focuses the mind on the technique, and boosts self-confidence, while potentially surprising or even intimidating the opponent. However, as for the sound itself, it should be, ideally, "unshaped"; pure exhalation from the diaphragm, voiced or unvoiced, in order to permit the fastest complete breath. The process of shaping your breath into syllables or near syllables, such as your student's combination, slow or entirely stop the breath for a moment. Your student's 'chook-cha' was probably a method that his instructor, or instructor's instructor, stumbled upon for breaking a breath into two, permitting him two outbreaths, and thus two techniques, on a single inhalation.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 10, 2011)

I was taught that the kihap come from the tanden, and that the throat and jaw must be relaxed in order to efficiently exhale quickly.  If you shape the kihap then you, in effect, tightening the throat, which will inhibit full exhalation.  I would imagine that the student in question is mistaking a sharp exhalation (kihap from the Tanden) with a forced exhalation (hard exhale with constricted throat and/or jaw).

I cannot speak to whether or not this is something that Hwang Kee stressed, but the "chook-cha" vocalization is not something I am familiar with.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2011)

In the Hapkido I learned we called it breathing exercises, during which we concentrated on what we called the Tan Jon, an area about three fingers below the belly button.  We did not normally kiyai, but performed the movements timed to the teacher's kiyai.  You might try googling Tan Jon for further information.


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## dancingalone (Oct 11, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I learned we called it breathing exercises, during which we concentrated on what we called the Tan Jon, an area about three fingers below the belly button. We did not normally kiyai, but performed the movements timed to the teacher's kiyai. You might try googling Tan Jon for further information.



I'm familiar with the dan tien or the tanden.  I was asking for very specific information about the tang soo do expression of kihap and how that might pertain to specifically produced sounds by TSD practitioners.  Some systems believe particular sounds might resonate with specific organ parts for example which may in turn lead to desirable physiological outcomes.

Thanks, though!


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## clfsean (Oct 11, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm familiar with the dan tien or the tanden.  I was asking for very specific information about the tang soo do expression of kihap and how that might pertain to specifically produced sounds by TSD practitioners.  Some systems believe particular sounds might resonate with specific organ parts for example which may in turn lead to desirable physiological outcomes.
> 
> Thanks, though!



Some qigongs do that. But I'm not much into qigong. In Chen taiji & Xingyi there's no noise except for the sharp exhalation when performing certain strikes or expressions of energy.

One of the best known is Hung Ga's Tiet Sin Kuen, or Iron Wire Fist. There's a noise assoicated with an emotion associated with an organ. But those aren't the discussed kihaps. Those are specific.

In CLF we have a battery of sounds we use for different strikes & such. The thought being is in a large melee type event, two CLF practitioners wouldn't square off against each other in error during the confusion of the event.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm familiar with the dan tien or the tanden. I was asking for very specific information about the *tang soo do expression of kihap and how that might pertain to specifically produced sounds by TSD practitioners. Some systems believe particular sounds might resonate with specific organ parts for example which may in turn lead to desirable physiological outcomes.
> 
> *Thanks, though!



Sorry, I didn't know that.  A TSD school used to practice at the same time in the same gyn sometimes in Korea.  I don't recall hearing them do anything like that, so I guess it is school/style specific.  One learns something new all the time.


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## cdunn (Oct 12, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I'm familiar with the dan tien or the tanden. I was asking for very specific information about the tang soo do expression of kihap and how that might pertain to specifically produced sounds by TSD practitioners. Some systems believe particular sounds might resonate with specific organ parts for example which may in turn lead to desirable physiological outcomes.
> 
> Thanks, though!



You might have the best luck by finding out what organization he was a part of and contacting a senior in that organization. The art is very splintered.


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2011)

cdunn said:


> You might have the best luck by finding out what organization he was a part of and contacting a senior in that organization. The art is very splintered.



I've done that, out of curiosity.  I phoned his old instructor.  The gentleman on the phone wasn't too forthcoming.  He was very polite, but I got the impression he wasn't willing to discuss it with a stranger, which is his right.

<shrugs> I understand where he may be coming from.  There are some things I wouldn't divulge either except in person.  Not necessarily out of secrecy but because some things are impossible to explain over the phone solely - they must be demonstrated for the listener to see, believe, and learn.


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## cdunn (Oct 12, 2011)

That's a shame that he wouldn't discuss it, because I'm curious too. As I said, it's not something that's endemic to the whole art - it's something that's cropped up in a specific lineage, and I wonder why. I really expect, though, that it has to do with breathing rhythm. A proper exhalation from the dan tein can be exhaustive, and rapid techniques make it more difficult. 

Another thought, though occurs to me. We ask our most junior belts to breathe audibly during techniques. Inevitably, this ends up making them sound like little steam engines during line drills and hyung once they catch on, then as they reach 3rd gup, 2nd gup, etc, they're expected to stop the 'clenching' that it takes to make the breath audible, to let it out quietly. I wonder if this started out similar, then they stopped removing the sound later?


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2011)

cdunn said:


> That's a shame that he wouldn't discuss it, because I'm curious too. As I said, it's not something that's endemic to the whole art - it's something that's cropped up in a specific lineage, and I wonder why. I really expect, though, that it has to do with breathing rhythm. A proper exhalation from the dan tein can be exhaustive, and rapid techniques make it more difficult.



Perhaps his particular line picked up some ideas from Chinese or Okinawan martial arts.  Given my new student's awareness of some concepts like rooting that are also found in Okinawan karate, I don't discount the idea.



cdunn said:


> Another thought, though occurs to me. We ask our most junior belts to breathe audibly during techniques. Inevitably, this ends up making them sound like little steam engines during line drills and hyung once they catch on, then as they reach 3rd gup, 2nd gup, etc, they're expected to stop the 'clenching' that it takes to make the breath audible, to let it out quietly. I wonder if this started out similar, then they stopped removing the sound later?



I like sound.  I don't mind if people are loud regardless of whatever style they train in.

Goju-ryu karate doesn't have a particular audible sound like 'chook, cha' either, but breathing noise is an undeniable part of the training modality of the style.   Outsiders often find the breathing in certain parts of Goju-ryu karate like Sanchin or Tensho kata to be peculiar with the strong exhalation of air from the tanden.  The characteristic sound allows an experienced listener to determine if correct breathing technique for these kata is present, yet it is not the final goal in of itself.  Inexperienced beginners often train to imitate the sound they hear from their seniors, but the trick is to inhale and exhale correctly with proper abdominal pressure - the sound comes in time.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 13, 2011)

My son-in-law obtained his BB in Tang Soo Do some years ago, in the USA.  He related there was nothing like that in the TSD he learned.  Where your student learned must have been an unusual variation.  I hope you learn the answer as I am curious now myself.  There is always something new to learn about what MA learn and do.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 14, 2011)

My teacher forbid us from breathing like this, even though we would see it at his teacher's dojang and at tournaments.  The explanation that he gave was that this style of breathing was not traditional, that it was something that people started doing during tournaments in order to highlight the techniques being performed.  The style of breathing filtered down from the kodanja and just sort of caught on.  

Traditional breathing is supposed to be natural, with the exception of the kihap.


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 15, 2011)

I was taught to breathe inhaling through the nose, holding the air very low into the abdomen, then exhaling. It is forbidden to breathe through the mouth, it doesn't matter how tired you are, you will be hit with a staff if you breathe through your mouth.
It is the foundation of every thing we do. My master says "Everybody must breathe to live, however one of the most difficult things to learn is how to breathe properly". It takes years to understand, develop and ultimately, to feel it.

I was taught Ki-Hap is made to channel the energy from you to your target. It is an act of focusing your very being (your spirit) gathering the energy from the low abdomen, holding it until your movement finishes, then releasing it using your body as a conduit for the energy. Both the release of the Ki-Hap and the end of the movement (kick, punch, etc) must coincide very precisely. 
One of the first things I learned was "Ki-hap is not made with the throat" it is not a yell, it is something more profound. 

On the belt tests, all hyungs must have a proper balance of breathing, ki-hap, strength, speed and proper execution.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 16, 2011)

Sounds a lot like what I learned when I studied TKD many years ago.  Sounds like a school I could enjoy.


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## Master Dan (Oct 16, 2011)

Montecarlodrag said:


> I was taught to breathe inhaling through the nose, holding the air very low into the abdomen, then exhaling. It is forbidden to breathe through the mouth, it doesn't matter how tired you are, you will be hit with a staff if you breathe through your mouth.
> It is the foundation of every thing we do. My master says "Everybody must breathe to live, however one of the most difficult things to learn is how to breathe properly". It takes years to understand, develop and ultimately, to feel it.
> 
> I was taught Ki-Hap is made to channel the energy from you to your target. It is an act of focusing your very being (your spirit) gathering the energy from the low abdomen, holding it until your movement finishes, then releasing it using your body as a conduit for the energy. Both the release of the Ki-Hap and the end of the movement (kick, punch, etc) must coincide very precisely.
> ...


 The Ki-Hap is also for more than just directing offensive energy but also defensive such as directing the energy to a specific part of the body to protect agains injury such as a hit to the ribs or other places besides the obvious of not wanting the diaphram full of air on a hit.  Also the breath and Ki-Hap can also be used to push an opponent or the term dropping the Chi to be added to any application or strike.  However my fellow in CMA friends and doctors have pointed out that years of compressive breathing related to the Kiyap by holding the energy in collecting anfd then compressing it while developing power to technique is unhealthy and will result in high blood presure and negative impacts on the heart?


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## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> The Ki-Hap is also for more than just directing offensive energy but *also defensive such as directing the energy to a specific part* *of the body to protect agains injury such as a hit to the ribs or other places* besides the obvious of not wanting the diaphram full of air on a hit. Also the breath and Ki-Hap can also be used to push an opponent or the term dropping the Chi to be added to any application or strike. However my fellow in CMA friends and doctors have pointed out that years of compressive breathing related to the Kiyap by holding the energy in collecting anfd then compressing it while developing power to technique is unhealthy and will result in high blood presure and negative impacts on the heart?



That would be impressive, so, how does that work then?


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## Master Dan (Oct 16, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> That would be impressive, so, how does that work then?


Well were not talking the no touch block or the no touch knock out which has a theory and much controvercy but related to Qigong or more importantly the Yan Xin Qigong for healing but just to keep it simple equal opposite, plus or minus, Yin or Yang, heal or hurt everything has its reverse application. Any way the energy we create to heal or to effect power against a thing can also be used to lesson the effects of damage to a particular part of the body I said lesson not stop the oppnent although there are those who conform to that belief? Does this work for a beginer of course not but trining with someone who has this for two years will give you a good start.  However believe it or not many masters who have trained hard 25 30 years building thier Chi have attained a level of pushing Chi when they are doing thier forms or other actions. In some cases with out realizing your doing very dificult multiple breaks with inexperienced holders and your not breaking because the holders are backing off before you even get thier your not conciously thinking about pushing them but the intensity of your energy is moving them. I suggest using experienced holders who will prepare for that. Last time I wanted to break in broken glass I had other masters hold for me it was wonderful they did not move but I asked them what if felt like and they said a warmth passed through them. Oh and the subject of certain power words has come up and frankly one of the best Grand Masters in the World non Asian has stated that its more important related to the type of breathing, visualization and control of the flo after that you could say F YOu or any thing you care to and have the same effect. I must have 50 pounds of research in my library I am sure thats not even a small portion but I recomend Doing Yan Xin qigong by Yuqiu Guo, Dr. Ac. from Tone Magazine, vol 11 no.6 February 1996. But regardless of what is written can I can attest to it healing power for almost anything if a person puts the time and effort to it.


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## Viper720 (Oct 17, 2011)

The reason for the Shoop Sha ( Or Shook Cha ) type breathing was bothering me too, i saw it all the time and wondered where it came from, originally i was informed it was simply Shin Chook breathing ( tension and relaxation from the 8 key concepts ) but then after some searching found that it was simply that a few good performers used the breathing in Competitions to look and sound more powerful and to emphasis strong technique, it caught on and others copied it both in Tournaments and eventually bringing them back to their own Dojang.

There is a use for audible breathing though, which follows a similar pattern, i suggest anyone whos interested tries to get along to one of KJN Ah Po's seminars where he covers the breathing techniques along with emphasis on Choon Ga Ryu ( middle way ) We have found it a great addition to what we are teaching, especially for those that practice/teach Chil Sung/Yuk Ro


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## DMcHenry (Oct 21, 2011)

I've never heard of making sounds like that, other than the norm kihap.


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