# Bujinkan as an "Ultimate" Martial Art



## Cryozombie (Feb 11, 2003)

Did anyone see the TLC special on the top 10 martial arts?  I was really pleased to see them include "Ninjutsu" and specifically the interview with Soke Hatsumi, but am I wrong to think that they portrayed the school in a hokey kind of Sho-Kosugi ninja movie way, with the Ninja clips and such interspersed with the actual training footage...

Oh well... it was just a TV show, so I guess it really doesn't matter...


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 12, 2003)

Yea I saw that. I agree it was kind of silly at times. Didn't Ninjutsu get number 4 though?


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## Cryozombie (Feb 14, 2003)

Four or Five... yeah.  I don't exaclty recall... 

Honestly I dont know WHERE they got their rating system... I'm in no way trying to put down ANY of the arts that they showed, but In my opinion some of the arts they showed, like Krav Maga for example, probably in the scheme of actual combat should have scored higher than some of the sport competition arts... But then again, they didnt specify that an "Ultimate" art was a "combative" art...


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## heretic888 (Feb 15, 2003)

I think that, in the context of the show, they rated the arts on the 'impact' they had on the world, so to speak. 

Shaolin Kung Fu, for example, was number one according to their scale. Now.... I don't mean to denigrate practitioners of Kung-Fu or any of the other styles, but it was far from the most combat practical and effective system on there (Ninpo being only one of at least three or four that come to mind that are more useful for self-defense).  So, I don't think 'combat practical' is what they have in mind with the misleading title 'ultimate martial arts'.


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

I saw some clips of it and thought the ranking was really out of whack. I also thought some of the members shouldnt have been on the list.

Rod Sacharnoski and his ilk to be exact.


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## Cthulhu (Feb 15, 2003)

Any show featuring the Juko-Kai (or whatever the hell they call themselves) as a legitimate martial art is complete and utter crap.  I don't care if Shakespeare himself wrote the show.

Cthulhu


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Any show featuring the Juko-Kai (or whatever the hell they call themselves) as a legitimate martial art is complete and utter crap.  I don't care if Shakespeare himself wrote the show.
> 
> Cthulhu *




I agree. I think they were rated 5th on the list too.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 15, 2003)

Well, again, not to dis any of those people... I seriously want to know What IS that Juko-Kai... Do they actually fight or is it all just "Ki Demonstration stuff"?  It seemed pretty... er... made up... 

But I honestly dont know if I am looking at it like a non Ninpo practitioner would look at Ashida Kim and go... "Oh so Ninja is just a bunch of fake stuff added to para-military sentry removal techniques.  Its fake."  or if Juko-Kai really is the Ashida Kim of the Kempo world...

Prior to that show I had never heard of it.  OF course I never knew what a ninja was until I saw Nine Deaths of the Ninja with Sho Kosugi...

(Cuz there's no Kosugi like Sho Kosugi, like no Kosugi I know...)


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *But I honestly dont know if I am looking at it like a non Ninpo practitioner would look at Ashida Kim and go... "Oh so Ninja is just a bunch of fake stuff added to para-military sentry removal techniques.  Its fake."  or if Juko-Kai really is the Ashida Kim of the Kempo world...
> *



Juko-Kai really is the Ashida Kim of the Kempo world.....check the guy's  claims on his website........yet another Soke-doke 
with about 20 9th dans.

You will also be unhappy to know they claim a "Ninpo Division" now too.


http://jukokai.com/


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## Cryozombie (Feb 15, 2003)

Does anyone know if Soke Hatsumi actually granted them a "a formal Ninpo division" sanction like they claim on their website? I think I will start a new thread...


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## RyuShiKan (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *Does anyone know if Soke Hatsumi actually granted them a "a formal Ninpo division" sanction like they claim on their website? I think I will start a new thread... *




That was a topic on another BBs a few months ago.

Knowing Sacharnoski I doubt it is that legit.


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## Bujingodai (Feb 16, 2003)

Like Jay stated on the other thread a Judan, actually 13th now. Asked for this to be awarded, honourary. Of course is now being used as legit. He is the highest ranking Bujinkan in Canada, also a member of the Juko-Kai. In my backyard so I don't care to go farther than that.


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## Dennis_Mahon (Feb 25, 2003)

> *Did anyone see the TLC special on the top 10 martial arts? I was really pleased to see them include "Ninjutsu" and specifically the interview with Soke Hatsumi, but am I wrong to think that they portrayed the school in a hokey kind of Sho-Kosugi ninja movie way, with the Ninja clips and such interspersed with the actual training footage...*



This was one of three shows on the martial arts produced by the Discover Channel/History Channel Network.  If you do a search, you can see the comments made on it when it first came out (a year ago, IIRC).


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## moromoro (Apr 25, 2003)

bujinkan as the ultimate MA

i cannot agree with this

the simple fact is realism there isnt any in the bujinkan
look at the way you guys defend from punches... it may be good

but how many times will someone in the street attack you like that


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## heretic888 (Apr 25, 2003)

its not in the form, its in the flow.


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## moromoro (Apr 25, 2003)

> its not in the form, its in the flow.



whats this soppose to mean


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## heretic888 (Apr 25, 2003)

It means Bujinkan Ninpo's effectiveness is not in its kata (forms), its in its flow.

Besides, I wouldn't call nine schools that survived the Warring States era as 'impractical'. They are obviously practical enough to survive centuries of almost uninterrupted civil war.


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## Deaf (Apr 25, 2003)

ok moromoro, exactly what type of experience have you had in regards with training within the bujinkan system to base your opinion?

Like it was said before, it is not about the techniques that are taught or kata if you will, but about the core concepts, the flow, the taijutsu (moving and using your entire body) that makes the art what it is.  This concept is a bit hard for people to grasp.

~Deaf~


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 25, 2003)

All he said was that he didn't think it was an ultimate martial art. I completely agree with that.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by heretic888 _
> *It means Bujinkan Ninpo's effectiveness is not in its kata (forms), its in its flow.
> 
> Besides, I wouldn't call nine schools that survived the Warring States era as 'impractical'. They are obviously practical enough to survive centuries of almost uninterrupted civil war. *



They survived on paper anyway..
There is actually a big controversy about how Hatsumi learned those nine schools.
Many say he learned them from the drawings on scrolls.


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## Don Roley (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SRyuFighter _
> *All he said was that he didn't think it was an ultimate martial art. I completely agree with that. *



Have to agree with you on that point. But at the same time, I think it has to be pointed out that there is no _one_ ultimate martial art. There are some very specialized arts that do well in certain situations. But take them out of those situations and they quickly lose effectiveness. The best example I have heard of this is that if you take a Wing Chun guy and a TKD guy into a crowded ally with a lot of junk on the ground- all else being the same- you would give the advantage to the the Wing Chun guy. Take those same two guys and put them in an open parking lot and I would put my money on the TKD guy.

I like Bujinkan because it seems to be one of the best overall arts that cover a lot of different situations. But it does not seem to excell in any one area as a result. I think there is value in _any_ martial art (leaving aside those started by frauds and 12 year olds) as long as you know what they are supposed to do and what they are not supposed to be. Along with Bujinkan in Japan, I have my Taiji class in a few hours and will possibly be getting together with my Silat partner tommorow. Each art has its strengths as well as its weaknesses. The Bujinkan has its weaknesses and knowing those points should be a subject of study for the students of the Bujinkan.


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Have to agree with you on that point. But at the same time, I think it has to be pointed out that there is no one ultimate martial art.  *


I completely agree with you there.


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## moromoro (Apr 25, 2003)

i still dont think it is the ultimate martial art


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## SRyuFighter (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *i still dont think it is the ultimate martial art *


We just agreed with you.


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## Silent Nightfall (Apr 26, 2003)

Moromoro, the Bujinkan system is not the ultimate martial art because no such thing exists. In terms of combat arts designed for real life situations and not for competitions with rules, it is one of, perhaps even the most, effective to date. It has its weaknesses as all arts do, but as Don said, it is up to the student to find out these weaknesses and learn to work around them. I believe our art is well-versed in all types of situations as we learn to use our environment. Whether it be closed spaces or open, armed or unarmed, we train for all of it. Of course, it depends completely upon the practitioner too. Some people just weren't made for some arts so that particular art won't seem effective for them. I'm happy where I am. That's all that matters. Oh, and by the way, did you have any ideas for what the ultimate martial art is if such exists? Or do you also agree that there are no ultimate martial arts? Just wondering.


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## bujinclergy (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bujingodai _
> *Like Jay stated on the other thread a Judan, actually 13th now. Asked for this to be awarded, honourary. Of course is now being used as legit.*



The Honorary Rank is a legit honorary award!



> *He is the highest ranking Bujinkan in Canada, also a member of the Juko-Kai.*



His name is John Willson and he's been with the Juko-Kai since the 70's and he's been with the Bujinkan since mid to early 80's! His capabilities and his time of experience says a lot  about his loyalties to Juko-Kai.




> * In my backyard so I don't care to go farther than that. *


Don't blame you since you'd have to answer to him directly.


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## Don Roley (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bujinclergy _
> *The Honorary Rank is a legit honorary award!*



What he is saying is that the rank is being used as if the guy had taken the fifth dan test and everything else that goes into a real (as compared to honorary) rank.


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## Lawman9 (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *i still dont think it is the ultimate martial art *



I completely disagree. It is the best art if you want to actually defend yourself in any situation. The weakness is you can't score too many points in a tournament with it. I have a student who also studies Hapkido so he can help his sons with it. He enters  tournaments just for the fun of it says that he always reverts back to the way we move and flow in the Bujinkan. He says that Hapkido and TKD "don't feel right". That says enough to me. 

I have also used it to get my a** out of some bad situations and it worked flawlessly. Just ask some of the big guys I have arrested who tried to kick my a**.


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## moromoro (May 2, 2003)

> I have also used it to get my a** out of some bad situations and it worked flawlessly. Just ask some of the big guys I have arrested who tried to kick my a**.



well have you ever come across a real eskrimador....


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *well have you ever come across a real eskrimador.... *



You mean the kind that uses real blades instead of sticks?


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## moromoro (May 2, 2003)

not neccessarily i dont really understand what you mean by that.


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *not neccessarily i dont really understand what you mean by that. *



From what I have seen and read of eskrima the actual use of the eskrima sticks was to take the place of real blades. In real combat the use of bladed weapons were used.


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## Kirk (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *From what I have seen and read of eskrima the actual use of the eskrima sticks was to take the place of real blades. In real combat the use of bladed weapons were used. *




I heard that what you stated is only partially the case.  That 
some  have taken it and turned it into a stick art.  In Kali, I've 
learned strips that would cut your hand in half, from mid palm on 
up.  And then some other FMA styles keep it the way you've stated.


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## Silent Nightfall (May 2, 2003)

Just a simple inquiry, but can someone please explain the transition from the Bujinkan as an effective combat art to that of a police officer coming across and experienced escrima master? I'm not quite sure of what the point is exactly.


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## Dennis_Mahon (May 2, 2003)

Thread drift is one of the many hazards of internet discussions.


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## Lawman9 (May 2, 2003)

LOL....We did have an escrima student in our group, and he is still a close friend. No doubt the stuff they have is wicked. But,  #1, they have to have sticks (or blades), #2, They would have to be able to hit a small .40 caliber piece of lead traveling close to 1000 fps.   
 That is a good inquiry but I am not going to take on someone bare handed who has a set of sticks (or blades). Common sense tells you to find another way to settle the situation. Of course I could pull my katana out of the inside of my trench coat and then shoot my lightning out of my finger tips and destroy him! But the Supreme Court has frowned on that. ....... lol...


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## moromoro (May 3, 2003)

> But, #1, they have to have sticks (or blades),



a eskrima student is veru different from a eskrima master


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## J-kid (May 3, 2003)

A bunch of idoits made that list.

Its a joke at best.


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## moromoro (May 3, 2003)

> A bunch of idoits made that list.



what list?


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## Silent Nightfall (May 4, 2003)

I believe that the reference to the list is that of the world's top martial arts. I could be wrong, however.


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## moromoro (May 5, 2003)

where can i find this list???????????????


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## Silent Nightfall (May 5, 2003)

If you read the beginning of this thread, you see that the list refers to the one given by the Discovery Channel in their infamous program on what they claim to be The World's Top 10 Martial Arts. You'll have to check TV listings on the Discovery or Learning Channel websites to see if it will be on anytime soon because I don't believe the list is written down anywhere, unless anyone happens to know what each art ranked.


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## Disco (May 5, 2003)

1.  Sholin Kung Fu
2.  Karate (Okinawan GoJu)
3.  Muay Thai
4.  Ninjutsu
5.  Juko-Kai
6.  Aikido
7.  TKD
8.  Krav Mega
9.  Kali
10.Gracie Jujitsu


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## SRyuFighter (May 5, 2003)

1. Shaolin Kung Fu
2. Karate
3. Muay Thai Kickboxing.
4. Ninjutsu

These are all that I can remember the other arts were
TKD, Kali, Krav Maga, Aikido,Juko Kai, and BJJ i think.


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