# What does an online bully look like to you?



## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm curious.  My kids were playing a game online, and I was appalled. I don't believe in sheltering my kids, but they were playing on a server that was really vile.  Regular use of profanity, derogatory comments and ganging up, in game.

My kids were completely unaffected by it.  They didn't think it was any big deal.  While they didn't engage in any of the back and forth, they didn't take offense, either.  After all, they said, it's not like they know me in real life.

Now, on the one hand, I thought that this was good for my kids.  They're grounded and stable enough to keep things in perspective.  At the same time, I was concerned that they see a huge disconnect between  online behavior and real life behavior.  It's okay, in other words, to say things online to someone you don't know that you would never say in real life.  We had a good chat about that one.  Suffice to say, I disagree.  

Which is the point of the thread.  Do you see bullies online as being different than in real life?  Do you see a concerning disparity between how kids view "real life" interaction vs their online communication? 

On forums like this one, do you believe we have bullies?  What are some of the characteristics of an online bully?  What do you do about it, if anything?  Is how you react online functionally different than in real life (other than the obvious differences)?


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## WC_lun (Sep 27, 2011)

I've played online games and belonged to forums which this kind of behavior is fairly common place.  I don't really know how to stop it.  As long as there is a venue in which cowards can hide behind a screen name and not put themselves in jeopardy of actually suffering the repurcussions of thier bad behaviour, you'll have the bullying.  My rule is I won't say anything on the net that I won't say to a person's face.  I would hope that when/if I have children they would see my example of showing respect to people and follow it, even on the internet.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 27, 2011)




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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

What occurred to me yesterday isn't necessarily the _acting_ like a turd online, but the lack of concern or desensitization that my kids exhibited. They were more concerned for me, because I was genuinely shocked.  As I said, I am about being involved, not having blinders on and guiding my kids.  So far, that's worked out really well.  They're good kids, honest, not sneaky.  But I was alarmed.

So, after talking about it, they agreed to avoid that particular server.  

So, you think that the online bullies are "normal people" who enjoy the anonymity of online games to act out?  Or is a bully a bully?


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## Carol (Sep 27, 2011)

Many bullies seem to be skilled in acting insidious...they won't beat down a kid in full view of the dean, they would seize the opportunity when they are less likely to be seen or heard.   The Missouri case comes to mind where 13 year old Megan Meier committed suicide after first being bullied by someone she thought was a new boy in town.  (The "boy" wasn't a boy at all, but the mother of one of Megan's friends who made the character up to belittle Megan after the two teens had a falling out).


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## Jenna (Sep 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Do you see a concerning disparity between how kids view "real life" interaction vs their online communication?



I think this is the worrying part. Since our children can almost live their lives online, virtual- and real-world activity is scarcely delineated and one naturally flows into the other. I think this is worrying exactly because of the nature of your question Steve. When someone cannot readily delineate the BIG BLACK LINE differentiating what is real from what is a binary representation then who is to say that that person (especially the youthful and naive) can differentiate between what is bullying online and what is bullying in reality.  If their bullying is either condoned online or at least comes with no penalty then why should they imagine it is so wrong.  If they have no strong differentiation between Facebook "friends" and flesh-and-blood people then it is a short hop from bullying online to enacting that behaviour in reality I think. 

For us who fight for our hobby, We tend to believe that a real-world punch-up would sort out a bully, especially when our children are at school age - I have always taught this pedagogy to my son, and but no! not if an online bully with no sense of real / online differentiation has come to school with a kitchen knife in their backpack.

AS to forums like these, Steve, you know they are more often than not congregations of closet bullies seeking opportunity to flex their typing wrath. In some cases it is explicit calling someone out or acting the internet tough guy and but in other cases it is the kind of verbal beration or beating down that would be unlikely to garner any support or kinship in the real world. I believe we internet people are ambivalent towards the more subtle bullying.  We say to ourselves that we do not approve and claim we cringe when we see it acted out.  And but really we like to be the dispassionate voyeur of arguments and arguers, no?

On another note, I used to think online bullies were mostly male. I have long since realised that women have far more to gain from the anonymity the online environment affords their bullying than men do. *Anecdotal* though my anecdote is real for me.

Well done to you too Steve for educating your children to have the wit and intelligence to know what is what online! You are right to have your senses alerted though.


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## granfire (Sep 27, 2011)

Good Grief, what were they playing (and how old are they)

I think there is a huge disconnect between online anonymity and real life, RL for short.

I don't put much stock in the unknown person abusing the medium to use words they would probably get in trouble for IRL.
When i come across some of those and feel bored enough I have my fun with them, which usually is something like 'I think your Mom is calling, you need to do your homework' 
I do believe a lot of games have an ignore feature or a report option. I mean, even World of Warcraft, notorious for rough exchanges has a limit to what goes.


However, I am very weary when such things are being put on the net by people who actually cross my kid's path on a daily basis. I actually printed out an exchange off FB and took it to the principal! 

One of the lessons to be learned on web usage is 'What do i care what a stranger on the net thinks about me'
That holds true for message boards as well.


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> Good Grief, what were they playing (and how old are they)
> 
> I think there is a huge disconnect between online anonymity and real life, RL for short.
> 
> ...


They're 14 and 15, Granfire, and they were playing Team Fortress 2.  It's a cartoonish first person shooter.  Very large servers with massive amounts of people playing at the same time.   They were on a server that was basically where people go to rack up achievements and such.  It was pretty hardcore. 

The computers are in the living room and there's no right to online privacy in our house.  I've also made it very clear to the kids exactly how easy it is for me to get their text messages and such from the phone company.  I'm all for empowerment, and want them to be able to do their thing.  At the same time, I don't want to be foolishly naive about it. 

I made it very clear to my kids yesterday that I expect them to treat people online EXACTLY as they would treat them in person.


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## Mike Melillo (Sep 27, 2011)

The most difficult part of this is seeing the Internet the way our kids do. To them, it's another form of entertainment, as they claim. But, we see it differently... It delivers their homework, it is one of their primary means of communication, it is instant gratification for any desire. They grew up with this advantage, and as they age, it will become even more important and essential. We keep seeing it as this big, bad place for them to get hurt, something all parents have felt about any advances their children have had over their own. It's perfectly natural to worry about things they know more about than we do.Having said that, however, if more and more of their contact is done through virtual communication, than we have no choice but to equate cyber bullying to the real thing. Because this is becoming their primary method of contact, it is just as injurious and hateful as what we perceive in the 'real' world. All we can do as parents is the very thing you did... Talk to them. Ask questions. Make them know you care about their exploits online and off. If you're concerned about what they do when you aren't looking, do what I do and establish an Internet curfew, when the modem goes off.


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## granfire (Sep 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> They're 14 and 15, Granfire, and they were playing Team Fortress 2.  It's a cartoonish first person shooter.  Very large servers with massive amounts of people playing at the same time.   They were on a server that was basically where people go to rack up achievements and such.  It was pretty hardcore.
> 
> The computers are in the living room and there's no right to online privacy in our house.  I've also made it very clear to the kids exactly how easy it is for me to get their text messages and such from the phone company.  I'm all for empowerment, and want them to be able to do their thing.  At the same time, I don't want to be foolishly naive about it.
> 
> I made it very clear to my kids yesterday that I expect them to treat people online EXACTLY as they would treat them in person.



Ah, I am familiar with the game. I think it's one of the few ones where both sides are on the same chat channel. Makes for interesting gameplay. 

It's smart to keep taps on net activity (I ought to be more vigilant, so far we do well, problems are brought up in conversation, plus he is playing with his buddies from school)

But it's nice of your kids, trying to shield you! :lol: You know, parents have never heard any bad words in their life! :lfao:


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

granfire said:


> Ah, I am familiar with the game. I think it's one of the few ones where both sides are on the same chat channel. Makes for interesting gameplay.
> 
> It's smart to keep taps on net activity (I ought to be more vigilant, so far we do well, problems are brought up in conversation, plus he is playing with his buddies from school)
> 
> *But it's nice of your kids, trying to shield you! :lol:* You know, parents have never heard any bad words in their life! :lfao:


Bolded was actually the sweetest part of the entire conversation.  They were genuinely concerned that I was... concerned.  While it was clear that they didn't see it as any big deal, they were like, "Dad.  Are you okay?" 

But what about adults?  In part, this got me thinking about MT.  We have heated discussions and such, and I've shot off a post or two (ahem) that I might not have had I given some thought to it.  So, I wonder what you guys think about online behavior, bullies and how it affects us here?  We're mostly adults.  I'd say most of us are established.  Many are parents.


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## granfire (Sep 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> But what about adults?  In part, this got me thinking about MT.  We have heated discussions and such, and I've shot off a post or two (ahem) that I might not have had I given some thought to it.  So, I wonder what you guys think about online behavior, bullies and how it affects us here?  We're mostly adults.  I'd say most of us are established.  Many are parents.



Oh good grief...adults...they are such pansies!

I actually had more honest, straight forward discussions with people I knew to be in their teens and early twenties. On the other hand I have had so called adults whimper at the mere hint of disagreement with their opinion, claiming abuse. I cannot tell you how many times I was tempted to use a popular WoW phrase on them: 'Because you touch yourself at night' while hilarious in contact, it's a put down, for those not into gaming.

I do admit I tend to get impatient with people, so around the 10th time they try to sell the same old idea that has been rebutted 20 times before that. like old Candace on Phinieas and Ferb: butbutbutbut....

I have called people out on their hizzy fits, I have called them names. and I have earn my reprimands for it, too! ^_^

But generally I have to say that while I try my darndest not to write anything I would not say face to face, I find it hard because most people cannot adhere to that principle. 

And of course, there is the problem between real life and online: If I disagree with somebody and let it bug me past walking away from the computer, then I am the idiot. 
However, while spouting off on the net (excluding FB) has little to no consequences, if I tell somebody IRL who bugs me exactly what I think of him (I have an example in mind ) it has far reaching consequences, and while I am up for clear speak and straight talk, I don't want to make the ripples it will cast.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 27, 2011)

that game draws adolescent jackasses like flies to crap

thats why i dont play it anymore, too many jerks.

I play WoW, and unless you are on a pvp server, it isnt like that.

that being said, we are so wussified as a people that now we are worried about so called "bullies" that cant even touch us?

give me a break. 

I got bullied. ALOT by real people who were really larger than me, and guess what?

i lived, and it motivated me to get into martial arts.

we need to toughen up as a people, we need less woody allen and more frank sinatra



stevebjj said:


> They're 14 and 15, Granfire, and they were playing Team Fortress 2.  It's a cartoonish first person shooter.  Very large servers with massive amounts of people playing at the same time.   They were on a server that was basically where people go to rack up achievements and such.  It was pretty hardcore.
> 
> The computers are in the living room and there's no right to online privacy in our house.  I've also made it very clear to the kids exactly how easy it is for me to get their text messages and such from the phone company.  I'm all for empowerment, and want them to be able to do their thing.  At the same time, I don't want to be foolishly naive about it.
> 
> I made it very clear to my kids yesterday that I expect them to treat people online EXACTLY as they would treat them in person.


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## granfire (Sep 27, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> I play WoW, and unless you are on a pvp server, it isnt like that.



Right. oOn RP servers they go to Goldshire to cyber....


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

I seriously, genuinely hope I'm misunderstanding your post, and you didn't just call my kids "adolescent jackasses."


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## granfire (Sep 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I seriously, genuinely hope I'm misunderstanding your post, and you didn't just call my kids "adolescent jackasses."



If your kids are, mine is, too.

Let's go party.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 27, 2011)

not a bit. Only saying that there are a LOT of adolescent jackasses that play that game, and first person shooters in general. i dont know your kids so i cant say anything about their character, and since i dont make stuff up and pretend it is fact, i wouldnt comment as to thier character. 

Anytime there is a PVP element ina game, it will draw the worst of the worst to it. PvP in wow is a good example, and ugh, dont even get me started on splinter cell co op.



stevebjj said:


> I seriously, genuinely hope I'm misunderstanding your post, and you didn't just call my kids "adolescent jackasses."


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not a bit. Only saying that there are a LOT of adolescent jackasses that play that game, and first person shooters in general. i dont know your kids so i cant say anything about their character, and since i dont make stuff up and pretend it is fact, i wouldnt comment as to thier character.
> 
> Anytime there is a PVP element ina game, it will draw the worst of the worst to it. PvP in wow is a good example, and ugh, dont even get me started on splinter cell co op.


For someone who says he speaks plainly, you don't.  

Here's a serious question for you, Twin Fist.  Have you ever considered that you are a bully?  

When I say that my kids play a particular game, and then you say that game attracts a certain type of person, I draw what I think is a very reasonable conclusion.  Kind of like when you call someone a lefty, and then say that the lefty's do horrible things.  It's a cowardly tactic.  Something that a bully would do.     

So, in a way, thank you for demonstrating at least one behavior I'd say is indicative of an online bully.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 27, 2011)

not shocked you saw that as an insult if you really did, (which i dont believe, i am pretty sure you are just claiming aggrieved status).

that game draws jackasses, (most 1st person shooters do)that your kids played it doesnt mean i was insulting them unless you want it to mean that. Particuarly after i said, IN ENGLISH that i didnt mean any such thing.

i couldnt be an "online bully" if i wanted to, since there is no such thing

none of us can be because this isnt real, it is words on a screen. bullies give you swirly's, THAT is what bullies do, they take your lunch money and give you wedgies.

not mocking replies to your posts...seriously

not shocked you see bullies everywhere though,....

all you are doing is once again throwing your personal insults in your typical passive agressive way to try and stay just inside the rules.

My posts are very clear and if you cant follow me, your reading comprehension is....not my problem.

either way, bored now.


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## Monroe (Sep 27, 2011)

*Twin fist - *Clearly you haven't experienced female bullies in high school. They don't operate that way.


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not shocked you saw that as an insult if you really did, (which i dont believe, i am pretty sure you are just claiming aggrieved status).


Just to be very clear. I did because you did. 





> that game draws jackasses, (most 1st person shooters do)that your kids played it doesnt mean i was insulting them unless you want it to mean that. Particuarly after i said, IN ENGLISH that i didnt mean any such thing.
> 
> 
> > i couldnt be an "online bully" if i wanted to, since there is no such thing
> ...


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## Ironcrane (Sep 27, 2011)

Online bullying is a bit of an enigma to me. On one hand that kind of behavior is frowned upon, and mocked to the point that anyone who acts like that will just look shameful, and ridiculous to their own detriment. On the other hand, it's so widespread that it would be easy to assume that everyone involved in online communities are hateful, moronic, bigots.
Your kids might have been indifferent to the way they were acting, because the best method of combating online bullying is to not give them attention. At least that's the best method I'm currently aware of.


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## Steve (Sep 27, 2011)

Ironcrane said:


> Online bullying is a bit of an enigma to me. On one hand that kind of behavior is frowned upon, and mocked to the point that anyone who acts like that will just look shameful, and ridiculous to their own detriment. On the other hand, it's so widespread that it would be easy to assume that everyone involved in online communities are hateful, moronic, bigots.
> Your kids might have been indifferent to the way they were acting, because the best method of combating online bullying is to not give them attention. At least that's the best method I'm currently aware of.


A lesson I can't seem to learn.


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## granfire (Sep 28, 2011)

Ironcrane said:


> Online bullying is a bit of an enigma to me. On one hand that kind of behavior is frowned upon, and mocked to the point that anyone who acts like that will just look shameful, and ridiculous to their own detriment. On the other hand, it's so widespread that it would be easy to assume that everyone involved in online communities are hateful, moronic, bigots.
> Your kids might have been indifferent to the way they were acting, because the best method of combating online bullying is to not give them attention. At least that's the best method I'm currently aware of.



I think the bullying only takes hold if the online and real life personas actually cross paths.

I mean, you would be an idiot to let a complete stranger from who-knows-where bully you.

But I think the cases that end tragic always include the real life aspect. That's why I did step up and took action when those lines intersected. 
I can't keep it from happening at school, but I can intercept the online aspect.
Just because you sit at home alone does not mean you are not heard or seen.


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## WC_lun (Sep 28, 2011)

The main problem with online bullying is kids and teenagers.  A lot of them haven't developed a well established and confident ego so when they get bullied, it effects them greater than a normal adult.  If the child or teenager has psycological problems or bullied in real life (say school) it becomes a recipe for disaster.  Kids can be pretty damn mean as well.  A teenager recently committed suicide due to being bullied because he was gay. At a school dance his sister was attending some of the student's friends started chanting his name as a sort of a homage to him.  Others in the school began adding stuff like "...is better off dead!" to the chant.  While I don't think these kids are representive of most teenagers, they certainly are not very rare.

Bulies online are bullies in life as well.  However, many times they are to cowardly to act out on the impulse unless put in a situation where they are safe from repurcussions.  Look at those that won't say boo to anyone on thier own, but put them in a crowd or backed by enough of thier friends and they become very vocal and aggressive.  It is the same type of behaviour.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 28, 2011)

Its a fickle Topic.

Remember that they MAY be "Bullying" by Ganging up and whatnot;
But for the People Ganging up, its a Form of Tactics.

Just as an Offhand Example, Youtube > Minecraft Griefing.
On the One Hand, if the Server doesnt Protect its Property, Sabotage is Inevitable.
On the Second, its Unfortunate if alot of Work went into something, or the Acquisition of Resources.
On the Third, People should Fortify Better.
On the Fourth, the People doing it are Exploiting either the Weakness of the Defenses; Or the Obviousness of the Possessions.
On the Fifth, if its a Group, theyre just Co-Operating.
Sure, it may be Cooperating against someone, but then, its better than an aimless free-for-all, even if youre on the Receiving End of a Superior Group.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 28, 2011)

the ones in Oak Cliff did, they were tough chicas.......lol



Monroe said:


> *Twin fist - *Clearly you haven't experienced female bullies in high school. They don't operate that way.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 28, 2011)

blah blah blah more passive aggressive personal attacks and insults.

i said in english, "not talking about your kids" you keep bringing it up after that? YOU are stirring up something, or trying to. As usual.



stevebjj said:


> I've said before, and I'll say again, Twin Fist. You need help, and I hope you get it.




another passive aggressive personal attack.


stevebjj said:


> Is that what they did to you? Is that why you're so angry and aggressive online?


and another


stevebjj said:


> when you're not yelling or tripping the profanity filter every third word. Which is very rarely.
> Haha.  Yeah.  Go get yourself another beer and relax.



and two more for fun

all you got is personal insults and you dont even have the intestinal fortitude to just come out and say it, you do the chick thing and try to dance AROUND the insult.

PS
i dont even drink, so thats you AGAIN making up stuff and telling lies.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 28, 2011)

Calmly, gentlemen, if you please.  Othwise I shall have to call the attention of a most definitely non-passive Moderator.  If you can't play together nicely then it is best to stay away from each other.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Moderator


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## seasoned (Sep 28, 2011)

Snide remarks yes, defensiveness yes, sharp tongued wit, some. Passionate about political stances yes. Bullying, I just don't see it here on Martial Talk. The study is the study, a place where you better have your game face on and your facts straight. From past experience, bullies/trolls, don't last long. The study at times gets heated, but, is well monitored. The study motto should read "enter at your own risk" and if your overly sensitive, read, but don't get to deeply involved. To me it looks like a huge sparring match, and I enjoy the view from the stands.


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## MJS (Sep 28, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I'm curious. My kids were playing a game online, and I was appalled. I don't believe in sheltering my kids, but they were playing on a server that was really vile. Regular use of profanity, derogatory comments and ganging up, in game.
> 
> My kids were completely unaffected by it. They didn't think it was any big deal. While they didn't engage in any of the back and forth, they didn't take offense, either. After all, they said, it's not like they know me in real life.
> 
> ...



Hey Steve,

Nice thread!   To answer your questions:  First, let me start by saying that I commend your kids for not falling into the 'game' that the other people were playing.  It certainly says alot.  

Do I think bullies are different online vs in person?  No.  Only difference is that they torment people with written words, vs. actually standing in front of them and tormenting them.  OTOH, its funny, because alot of the time, people use the 'security' of the computer to aid in their actions, which sometimes leads to things being said that normally wouldn't be said face to face.  Of course there've also been times, and I can't recall where this happened, but there was an incident in which a mother got online, posed as a male, began talking to a female, whom her daughter and her friends didn't like, and actually pretended to like her, only to suddenly turn on her, which resulted in the girl killing herself.  

Do we have bullies on MT?  Sure.  Some are no longer here, some probably still lurk, and some hide, pop back to stir the pot, then run back to their safe spot, like a *****.  

What do I do about it?  Well, obviously if they're that much of a PITA, I ban their ***! LOL!  Which results in them coming back to resume their BS or talk **** on another forum. LOL.  Some people have nothing better to do with their time I guess. LOL  

How do I deal with online vs. real life?  Well, online....I've learned to chalk it up to people being kids.  Online BS is easy (for some) to walk away from.  On here, all you need to do is ignore the person, ban them (after discussion with the other mods) but most importantly, you can walk away from the computer.  Trust me, more than once, I've typed up a reply that probably would get me banned or some IC points...LOL...only to walk away, come back, and start over, making a more civil, mature post.  

Real life...well, thats not so easy.  Kinda hard to walk away from some ******* that you work with...lol.  You learn to grow a thick skin and ignore..lol.  Of course, some people in RL are stupid, and dont know when to draw the line, so sometimes you need to tell them.  I try not to pull as many punches as I used to...in other words, if someone is being an ***, I'm going to tell them.   Sadly, you can't always change someone else, but you can learn that you're a better person, by not falling into their trap.


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## Steve (Sep 28, 2011)

MJS said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Nice thread!   To answer your questions:  First, let me start by saying that I commend your kids for not falling into the 'game' that the other people were playing.  It certainly says alot.


They're smart kids.  





> Do I think bullies are different online vs in person?  No.  Only difference is that they torment people with written words, vs. actually standing in front of them and tormenting them.  OTOH, its funny, because alot of the time, people use the 'security' of the computer to aid in their actions, which sometimes leads to things being said that normally wouldn't be said face to face.  Of course there've also been times, and I can't recall where this happened, but there was an incident in which a mother got online, posed as a male, began talking to a female, whom her daughter and her friends didn't like, and actually pretended to like her, only to suddenly turn on her, which resulted in the girl killing herself.


I remember this too.  I think Carol brought it up earlier in the thread.  Bullies definitely exist online.  

I've mentioned in the past that i believe bullies and people who are bullied are functionally the same.  What I mean is that in most cases, people who bully others and people who attract bullies are both insecure, both anti-social, tend not to be very introspective and are lacking some fundamental skills that make it difficult for them to get along with others.  

My theory, based on my 20 or so years on usenet/internet forums, is that online bullies are actually people who tend to be bullied in real life and feel empowered online.  



> Do we have bullies on MT?  Sure.  Some are no longer here, some probably still lurk, and some hide, pop back to stir the pot, then run back to their safe spot, like a *****.
> 
> What do I do about it?  Well, obviously if they're that much of a PITA, I ban their ***! LOL!  Which results in them coming back to resume their BS or talk **** on another forum. LOL.  Some people have nothing better to do with their time I guess. LOL
> 
> ...


Which leads me to another question.  Most of the people on this board are professionals in some capacity or another.  I think most of us work.   Have you ever worked with an adult bully?  I'm talking the boss who publicly embarrasses employees, picks favorites, or sets impossible deadlines...  or coworkers who are passive aggressive, sabotage projects or gang up on each other.   Now that we have, in theory, better interpersonal skills to deal with them, how do you guys approach these things?  

There's a book I read a few years back.  I really like it.  It's called the No ******* Rule.   I think we could benefit from a little more of that around here.


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## Monroe (Sep 28, 2011)

Stevebjj - We have a bully at work. We call him Satan. I think his employed days are numbered. 

They're not an asset, they're a liability. In all fairness, the employer needs a heads up. They're the ones who'll probably end up being sued.


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## MJS (Sep 28, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> They're smart kids.







> I remember this too. I think Carol brought it up earlier in the thread. Bullies definitely exist online.



Ah...yes, you're correct.  I missed that post.



> I've mentioned in the past that i believe bullies and people who are bullied are functionally the same. What I mean is that in most cases, people who bully others and people who attract bullies are both insecure, both anti-social, tend not to be very introspective and are lacking some fundamental skills that make it difficult for them to get along with others.



You're probably correct.  Think about it....back in high school, how many popular kids did you see getting bullied?  I dont recall many, if any at all.  Those kids, the more popular ones, most likely were not lacking what you mention.



> My theory, based on my 20 or so years on usenet/internet forums, is that online bullies are actually people who tend to be bullied in real life and feel empowered online.



True.



> Which leads me to another question. Most of the people on this board are professionals in some capacity or another. I think most of us work. Have you ever worked with an adult bully? I'm talking the boss who publicly embarrasses employees, picks favorites, or sets impossible deadlines... or coworkers who are passive aggressive, sabotage projects or gang up on each other. Now that we have, in theory, better interpersonal skills to deal with them, how do you guys approach these things?



Yes.  Usually, if at all possible, I do my best to have as little interaction with them as possible.  Sure, there're people who I can't avoid, ie: people that work on my shift.  However, some of those people I only interact with, only when its work related.  Otherwise, I do my best to not engage in chat with them.  



> There's a book I read a few years back. I really like it. It's called the No ******* Rule. I think we could benefit from a little more of that around here.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> On forums like this one, do you believe we have bullies?



I believe there are people here in these forums who are bullies, or who work in that direction.  Sometimes people make excuses for it by saying, "oh, he's really a decent guy face-to-face".  I say BS to that.  What he says and how he says it when hidden safely behind a computer monitor is probably the real personality there.  If he's nice face-to-face, it's a facade designed to hide his true personality.  The guy who comes out online is probably the real deal.

It doesn't bother me much, I just see it as showing his true colors and I know what kind of people they are.  From that point on they don't hold any credibility for me and I don't engage with them.  I also know who I have no interest in ever meeting, face-to-face.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2011)

Jenna said:


> Since our children can almost live their lives online,



this is actually the part that I find most disturbing.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 28, 2011)

Aye, the sense of simple human contact is seemingly being lost with the flood of portable digital comms available.  

I see it at work.  Whereas only ten years ago, myself and my workmates would sit in the canteen, play cards and chat, the young people we're employing now sit around the table reverently worshipping their iPhones.

I have no evidence that this is societally bad but it certainly doesn't feel like it's 'good' for long term 'social health'.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye, the sense of simple human contact is seemingly being lost with the flood of portable digital comms available.
> 
> I see it at work. Whereas only ten years ago, myself and my workmates would sit in the canteen, play cards and chat, the young people we're employing now sit around the table reverently worshipping their iPhones.
> 
> I have no evidence that this is societally bad but it certainly doesn't feel like it's 'good' for long term 'social health'.



I'm the last man on the planet who has never owned a cell phone.  And fighting desperately to keep it that way.

never been on Facebook, Myspace, etc...

never sent a text message or IM.

comfortable with email, tho.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 28, 2011)

luddite!!! lol


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 28, 2011)

ROFLKLITA - aye, I'm 'guilty as charged' too, John.  Which is pretty ironic considering what I do for a living and how I spend a lot of my leisure time (either here or playing LOTRO).


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 28, 2011)

i tried lotro but i am a WoW guy, through and through.


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## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

TF you have a lot to learn if you think online bullies don't exist.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 29, 2011)

I agree that they do, Blade, aye.  But they are a heck of a lot easier to deal with than 'real world' ones.  Well, they are on sites like MT at any rate.  

Of course, I am speaking here from the perspective of a grown man on a site largely populated by mature adults with serious mind-sets (most of the time ).  

I can see that on other sites, where 'mob rule' is the order of the day, that younger folks can be intimidated without the security of both a mature ego (in the nice sense) of their own and the support of a largely polite 'population' to beat the bullies back.


----------



## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I agree that they do, Blade, aye.  But they are a heck of a lot easier to deal with than 'real world' ones.



I would disagree, Sukerkin, I was cyberbullied on a gaming server and site, and I tried to get the mods help to get them to stop, but thew mods were just as bad as they were. I couldn't even play the game properly because the champion players who were bullies would find out my usernames, go into my games when i didn't even know who they were, and steal my points from me. I ended up quitting a game I loved to play because I couldn't play it properly.  There was no way to deal with them other than quit. And what kind of way is that.


----------



## granfire (Sep 29, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I would disagree, Sukerkin, I was cyberbullied on a gaming server and site, and I tried to get the mods help to get them to stop, but thew mods were just as bad as they were. I couldn't even play the game properly because the champion players who were bullies would find out my usernames, go into my games when i didn't even know who they were, and steal my points from me. I ended up quitting a game I loved to play because I couldn't play it properly.  There was no way to deal with them other than quit. And what kind of way is that.



Well, true.
But you can walk away from the internet bully.
They are not likely to find you in real life.

Real Life bullies often populate areas we can't get away from, like schools or work places. 

I had (until now) no problems with real life bullies. (and my bully is a special case, I think he is manuvering himself into the corner....)
But I did get into an ugly situation on a message board once. Yes, I quit going there. And at first I missed it, but I had not really participated there much anymore anyhow, quiet a while before the bullying started. (back then we called it a ***** fight, fittingly since it was about dogs! )

it resolved itself, since we dropped AOL around that time anyhow.
(Gosh, can I even say that out loud?! I had AOL and loved it!!)


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2011)

i learned we are wussed out if words on a screen make any sort of substancial impact on anyone's life

yeah yeah i know, the girl that got myspace harrassed, she would have off'd herself anyway IMO


words on a screen cant hit you



Blade96 said:


> TF you have a lot to learn if you think online bullies don't exist.


----------



## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i learned we are wussed out if words on a screen make any sort of substancial impact on anyone's life
> 
> yeah yeah i know, the girl that got myspace harrassed, she would have off'd herself anyway IMO
> 
> ...



They can't hit you physically, no. But not all bullying is physical. and you don't have to be very close to someone to bully.


----------



## granfire (Sep 29, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> They can't hit you physically, no. But not all bullying is physical. and you don't have to be very close to someone to bully.



he has never dealt with a girl bully!


----------



## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

granfire said:


> he has never dealt with a girl bully!



girl bullies are worse than evil......a guy will hit you but girls will do deeper damage.  I was bullied by girls too.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 29, 2011)

let me say this one more time


if WORDS ON A SCREEN can hurt you, you have some underlying issues already

now this might not be true of kids, who havnt really developed a sense of self yet, but for adults? man the hell up

if they cant touch you, they cant hurt you

people's opinions cant hurt you

the words of strangers mean nothing



Blade96 said:


> They can't hit you physically, no. But not all bullying is physical. and you don't have to be very close to someone to bully.


----------



## Blade96 (Sep 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> let me say this one more time
> 
> 
> if WORDS ON A SCREEN can hurt you, you have some underlying issues already
> ...



You're right about the kids/teens, the suicides and stuff we hear about have happened where teens/kids are concerned. You're right that adults would be better equipped. I wasn't though, when it happened to me on the gaming site.  Maybe ok if it was just words, like you said, but it wasn't. I felt violated.  because i had innocently posted some pics of myself and they used those pics to photoshop and display hateful things on them. Even going so far to make a 'video' using my pics about a retarded girl with autism who needed the public to donate because the retard (thats what they called me) needed help. That's what they did to me. Wasn't just words.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> let me say this one more time
> 
> 
> if WORDS ON A SCREEN can hurt you, you have some underlying issues already
> ...



I saw young women go after a guy who spread the wrong rumour about the wrong girl. It went on for months. By the time they were done with him, he was hospitalized for a suicide attempt. 

Words can be vicious. Emotional bullies find your weakness and play it for all it's worth.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

that guy needed to man up, confront the girl IN PERSON and put a stop to it. 

or zen up and ignore it

all things pass

our grandparents fought the nazi's, the great depression and polio, and someone can facebook us to death?

pffft


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

did you know any of them in real life?

no?

then what did it matter? what do the words of strangers you will never meet, who dont know you, dont know your  friends or family matter?



Blade96 said:


> You're right about the kids/teens, the suicides and stuff we hear about have happened where teens/kids are concerned. You're right that adults would be better equipped. I wasn't though, when it happened to me on the gaming site.  Maybe ok if it was just words, like you said, but it wasn't. I felt violated.  because i had innocently posted some pics of myself and they used those pics to photoshop and display hateful things on them. Even going so far to make a 'video' using my pics about a retarded girl with autism who needed the public to donate because the retard (thats what they called me) needed help. That's what they did to me. Wasn't just words.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> our grandparents fought the nazi's, the great depression and polio, and someone can facebook us to death?



I might think that TF is being somewhat too dismissive of the emotional torment that can be inflicted on those who do not possess the ability to view the on-line population as 'not real' ... but that last comment is a fair point indeed.


----------



## Jenna (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist, can I ask please what would be your advice to any of your younger female family members who were being hassled, harrassed, stalked and having rumours about them spread online?  Would you understand why this kind of thing which is only words sent through Facebook or across cellphones might upset them?  If it were your younger sister or cousin maybe what would your advice to them be knowing how difficult it can be to ignore and knowing how cruel especially young people and teenagers can be sometimes?  Is it not different for you because you are naturally of a tougher disposition?  Maybe not everyone can be this way??  I do not know.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

TF, if it was only online, it would have been different. This was a 19yo being tormented via phone (multiple girls from cells (texts), home phones, work lines), at school, at home, on the street, anywhere he was seen. Webpage set up to humiliate him. He was living with an aunt and uncle because his adopted parents had passed away. You wouldn't believe what they said about his Aunt and Uncle or his deceased parents etc... Round the clock harrassment. He should have gone to the police before the suicide attempt.


----------



## granfire (Sep 30, 2011)

Monroe said:


> TF, if it was only online, it would have been different. This was a 19yo being tormented via phone (multiple girls from cells (texts), home phones, work lines), at school, at home, on the street, anywhere he was seen. Webpage set up to humiliate him. He was living with an aunt and uncle because his adopted parents had passed away. You wouldn't believe what they said about his Aunt and Uncle or his deceased parents etc... Round the clock harrassment. He should have gone to the police before the suicide attempt.



but again, the line id blurred here.

Pure online bullying, you can walk away (you should be able to, after all, a complete stranger on the net, what do you care!)

But those real life/online cases, shucks, you can't get away from them.

And it reaches far more people than the usual face to face aggression.

And then it is amazing how many people willingly participate, too.


----------



## Steve (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> that guy needed to man up, confront the girl IN PERSON and put a stop to it.
> 
> or zen up and ignore it
> 
> ...


Careful, Twin Fist.  You're beginning to sound like Obama.  We're a little soft and we've lost our competitive edge.  

While I think that's true, I want to make sure that we don't go too far down this hyperbolic trail.  Few people are bullied "to death," even in face to face situations.  Online or in real life, bullying seldom results in suicide or death.  Most people survive now, just as I'm sure they have throughout the ages.  This doesn't, however, mean they don't exist.  Death isn't the only measure we have of the existence of bullies.  Twin Fist, you survived.  

I don't know whether Twin Fist has any kids, but I'm guessing not.


----------



## aedrasteia (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> *"i learned we are wussed out if words on a screen make any sort of substancial impact on anyone's life*
> 
> *yeah yeah i know, the girl that got myspace harrassed*, *she would have off'd herself anyway IMO"*
> 
> ...


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

i would tell them to find one of the bad guys and make hamburger helper out of her face. Then dare ANYONE to talk some more smack about her.

it would end, and she would never get convicted. Not here.

there are lines you simply DO NOT CROSS, and there aint nothng wrong with reminding people of that from time to time when needed

we have really wussed out as a nation.....

this whole conversation reminds me of the scene in the godfather where the undertaker comes to vito corleone for justice.

dont go crying to the police. Handle It.




Jenna said:


> Twin Fist, can I ask please what would be your advice to any of your younger female family members who were being hassled, harrassed, stalked and having rumours about them spread online?  Would you understand why this kind of thing which is only words sent through Facebook or across cellphones might upset them?  If it were your younger sister or cousin maybe what would your advice to them be knowing how difficult it can be to ignore and knowing how cruel especially young people and teenagers can be sometimes?  Is it not different for you because you are naturally of a tougher disposition?  Maybe not everyone can be this way??  I do not know.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

or he could have beat the snot out of one of them and the rest would prob have left him alone.


you have to be weak or broken on a fundamental level to let the words of strangers get to you THAT MUCH

rather than sit around and cry, how about getting some payback?

people like that would have let the japs get away with pearl harbor.

FIGHT BACK

quit being a victim



Monroe said:


> TF, if it was only online, it would have been different. This was a 19yo being tormented via phone (multiple girls from cells (texts), home phones, work lines), at school, at home, on the street, anywhere he was seen. Webpage set up to humiliate him. He was living with an aunt and uncle because his adopted parents had passed away. You wouldn't believe what they said about his Aunt and Uncle or his deceased parents etc... Round the clock harrassment. He should have gone to the police before the suicide attempt.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

aedrasteia said:


> Thinking about what can bring someone to say that.



what brings me to say that? the hard learned knowledge that the world is a tough place, you either get tough or you are a victim.

the bad guys are like tigers, and tigers do not concern themselves with the feelings of thier prey.

you can choose to be a gazelle or not.

I choose not.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> or he could have beat the snot out of one of them and the rest would prob have left him alone.
> 
> 
> you have to be weak or broken on a fundamental level to let the words of strangers get to you THAT MUCH
> ...



You would beat the snot out of a bunch of girls? That wouldn't go over well in court with a background in MA.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i would tell them to find one of the bad guys and make hamburger helper out of her face. Then dare ANYONE to talk some more smack about her.
> 
> it would end, and she would never get convicted. Not here.



I don't believe you. Someone with a MA background beating the crap out of someone who hasn't laid a finger on you is going to get you arrested for assault.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

did i say I WOULD DO THAT?
no

i was speakign of the hypothetical person in the example.

clearly I would not hit a female myself

DUH



Monroe said:


> You would beat the snot out of a bunch of girls? That wouldn't go over well in court with a background in MA.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

read what i wrote

"i would tell them to "

i didnt say i would do anything, i was asked how i would advise my daughter.

thats twice

is english your first language? or did you not read the posts i was responding to?




Monroe said:


> I don't believe you. Someone with a MA background beating the crap out of someone who hasn't laid a finger on you is going to get you arrested for assault.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

*or he could have beat the snot out of one of them and the rest would prob have left him alone.*


you have to be weak or broken on a fundamental level to let the words of strangers get to you THAT MUCH

rather than sit around and cry, how about getting some payback?

people like that would have let the japs get away with pearl harbor.

FIGHT BACK

quit being a victim







 Originally Posted by *Monroe* 

 
 				TF, if it was only online, it would have been  different. This was a 19yo being tormented via phone (multiple girls  from cells (texts), home phones, work lines), at school, at home, on the  street, anywhere he was seen. Webpage set up to humiliate him. He was  living with an aunt and uncle because his adopted parents had passed  away. You wouldn't believe what they said about his Aunt and Uncle or  his deceased parents etc... Round the clock harrassment. He should have  gone to the police before the suicide attempt.







Twin Fist said:


> did i say I WOULD DO THAT?
> no
> 
> i was speakign of the hypothetical person in the example.
> ...



The scenario you were referring to was the 19yo dealing with female bullies.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

i would tell them to *find one of the bad guys and make hamburger helper  out of her face.* Then dare ANYONE to talk some more smack about her.

it would end, and she would never get convicted. Not here.

there are lines you simply DO NOT CROSS, and there aint nothng wrong with reminding people of that from time to time when needed

we have really wussed out as a nation.....

this whole conversation reminds me of the scene in the godfather where the undertaker comes to vito corleone for justice.

dont go crying to the police. Handle It.







 Originally Posted by *Jenna* 

 
 				Twin Fist, can I ask please what would be your  advice to any of your younger female family members who were being  hassled, harrassed, stalked and having rumours about them spread online?   Would you understand why this kind of thing which is only words sent  through Facebook or across cellphones might upset them?  If it were your  younger sister or cousin maybe what would your advice to them be  knowing how difficult it can be to ignore and knowing how cruel  especially young people and teenagers can be sometimes?  Is it not  different for you because you are naturally of a tougher disposition?   Maybe not everyone can be this way??  I do not know.








Twin Fist said:


> read what i wrote
> 
> "i would tell them to "
> 
> ...



My English is just fine. Your solution in both scenario's was to beat the female bully up. I highlighted it for you.


----------



## Twin Fist (Sep 30, 2011)

niether of those hypotheticals asked me what I would do.

got that? not for ME to do it,

i find violence towards women distastefull.

if it was ME and it was being hounded by females? who cares what they think or say. ignore the little idiots

but my daughter? she would be justified in pounding some ***.

and apparently your english isnt fine, since you, not once but TWICE came to the conclusion that I would attack people myself when i didnt say that at all.

you are 100% right that a background in MA makes one less likely to get away with assault. I know that which is why i am hesitant to do it myself.


----------



## Monroe (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> niether of those hypotheticals asked me what I would do.
> 
> got that? not for ME to do it,
> 
> ...



You, your daughter, the 19yo. How is your hypothetical daughter going to kick their arses? You suggested getting men to beat up the female bully. That's assault. You suggested the 19yo guy beat the girl up. I'm understanding you just fine. Them, you... your solution is to beat people up. In this day and age, that is assault and it's not a reasonable solution.


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> niether of those hypotheticals asked me what I would do.
> 
> got that? not for ME to do it,
> 
> ...



I just spent who only ****ing knows how long verifying that you never said anything about Committing Violence, Personally.
All you did was Advocate the Idea. Which everyone does at some Point.

Violence is always an Option.
Perhaps not always the Best Option.
But People Settle Disputes with Hostility all the time. Its not always Violent, but Hostile, certainly.

This aint Happy Land The Planet.




Jenna said:


> Twin Fist, can I ask please what would be your advice to any of your younger female family members who were being hassled, harrassed, stalked and having rumours about them spread online? Would you understand why this kind of thing which is only words sent through Facebook or across cellphones might upset them? If it were your younger sister or cousin maybe what would your advice to them be knowing how difficult it can be to ignore and knowing how cruel especially young people and teenagers can be sometimes? Is it not different for you because you are naturally of a tougher disposition? Maybe not everyone can be this way?? I do not know.


Im just going to hop in here, and say; That I would tell them that the Warm, Tingly Feeling in their Head that made them feel either Emotionally Hurt, or like Breaking Something (Depends on a few Predispositions ) is a Natural Response to such things. And that they should Read over what the Person has said to them, and Evaluate every Fault in their Accusations. Then, use those Faults to Justify Belittling the Other Persons Accusations, back to them. Then, the Person will likely Reply with either an Empty Insult, or Baseless Criticism, giving you Fuel to utterly Discredit them. But thats just Me.


----------



## Monroe (Oct 1, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I just spent who only ****ing knows how long verifying that you never said anything about Committing Violence, Personally.
> All you did was Advocate the Idea. Which everyone does at some Point.
> 
> Violence is always an Option.
> ...



I have a problem with advocating a violent response. Because if they don't have the means to use their fists or their words, what does the victim do? Pull out a gun? 
It's just not an appropriate response outside of self-defense. Hostility rarely makes things better.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> I have a problem with advocating a violent response. Because if they don't have the means to use their fists or their words, what does the victim do? Pull out a gun?
> It's just not an appropriate response outside of self-defense. Hostility rarely makes things better.



Hostility is a Resolution.
Not everyone will play the Legal Game - Especially not Younger People.

And most People who Brawl are Completely Untrained, and beat each other just fine.

If you have a Problem with Advocating Violence, im sure youre set in that View.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 1, 2011)

unreasonable situations call for unreasonable answers

there is no law to handle so called "online bullies" and i might add, who needs the police to handle thier problems i handle my own problems, thank you. 

there is a line you do not cross

thats whats wrong with this country, too many people wanting to deal with unreasonable criminals reasonably.

you be the gazelle. I wont be. no one in my family will. 



Monroe said:


> You, your daughter, the 19yo. How is your hypothetical daughter going to kick their arses? You suggested getting men to beat up the female bully. That's assault. You suggested the 19yo guy beat the girl up. I'm understanding you just fine. Them, you... your solution is to beat people up. In this day and age, that is assault and it's not a reasonable solution.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 1, 2011)

Monroe said:


> Hostility rarely makes things better.



thus sayeth the victim

hostility almost always solves problems

hostility solved that pesky hitler problem

and the tojo problem

need i go on?

force, hostility and violence have solved more problems than anything else in the history of.....history


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 1, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> thus sayeth the victim
> 
> hostility almost always solves problems
> 
> ...




This statement is so full of fail, I hardly know where to begin.  If what you say is true, then there is no place for rule of law and peace.  Everything is solved by who can be the most violent.  That is very chaotic and actually an anathema to what most human beings strive for, even those who use violence asa tool.  In my experience, people who voice such opinions on violence, hostility, and force do so when they are the ones using such deplorable tools, but have as much issue with those things as the next person when they are victim to such things.  If you indeed believe this stuff, then you would have no problem with someone taking your hard earned money at gun point or knife esge because after all, they are willing to use violence and are in a stronger position to you.

Telling a person to use violence as the go to technique as the answer for anything is not only wrong, but irresponsable.  Yeah, sometimes violence is the answer to a problem.  However that should be a last resort.  Anyone who uses it as a first response is damaged and usually seperated by prison walls from the rest of us.


----------



## MJS (Oct 1, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> let me say this one more time
> 
> 
> if WORDS ON A SCREEN can hurt you, you have some underlying issues already
> ...



You are 100% correct with this!  However, in the case of the online bulling, that led to that teenage girl killing herself, well, obviously we're talking about a kid vs an adult.  A teen girl, who thought, that a boy was interested in her, only to suddenly turn on her...well, I think you know where I'm going.

As for an adult....well, like I said, I agree with what you said above...words on a screen really can't physically hurt you.  Its easy to block someone, ignore someone, etc.  Yet, interestingly enough, I've seen some reported posts by people on this forum, who I swear seem devastated by what others say.  So that said, I have to wonder.....are those words really hurtful....or should people just man up and not let it bother them?


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 1, 2011)

I agree that as an adult, a person should not let something said in an online forum upset them overly much.  You shouldn't let some jackass that just wants to spew venom control you in any manner.  Having said that, it doesn't absolve above said jackass from any responsibility either.  Like it or not, foums are a community of sorts and if a person wants to post they should try to stick to those community standards.  Besides that, it is just common decency to not be a jackass to people.  Common decency does still count for something, doesn't it?


----------



## MJS (Oct 1, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> I agree that as an adult, a person should not let something said in an online forum upset them overly much.  You shouldn't let some jackass that just wants to spew venom control you in any manner.  Having said that, it doesn't absolve above said jackass from any responsibility either.  Like it or not, foums are a community of sorts and if a person wants to post they should try to stick to those community standards.  Besides that, it is just common decency to not be a jackass to people.  Common decency does still count for something, doesn't it?



Couldn't agree more, and trust me, if I had a dollar for every time I've said that on THIS forum, I'd have millions! LOL!


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 1, 2011)

look at history and tell me i am wrong. What has solved more conflicts, violence or talking?



I'll wait...................













thats what i thought



WC_lun said:


> If what you say is true, then there is no place for rule of law and peace.  Everything is solved by who can be the most violent.  That is very chaotic and actually an anathema to what most human beings strive for, even those who use violence asa tool.  In my experience, people who voice such opinions on violence, hostility, and force do so when they are the ones using such deplorable tools, but have as much issue with those things as the next person when they are victim to such things.  If you indeed believe this stuff, then you would have no problem with someone taking your hard earned money at gun point or knife esge because after all, they are willing to use violence and are in a stronger position to you.
> 
> Telling a person to use violence as the go to technique as the answer for anything is not only wrong, but irresponsable.  Yeah, sometimes violence is the answer to a problem.  However that should be a last resort.  Anyone who uses it as a first response is damaged and usually seperated by prison walls from the rest of us.


----------



## Steve (Oct 1, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> look at history and tell me i am wrong. What has solved more conflicts, violence or talking?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What???  Are you saying that aggression and violence have solved more problems than diplomacy and negotiation?  You're kidding.  Right?  You're being sarcastic.


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> You are 100% correct with this!  However, in the case of the online bulling, that led to that teenage girl killing herself, well, obviously we're talking about a kid vs an adult.  A teen girl, who thought, that a boy was interested in her, only to suddenly turn on her...well, I think you know where I'm going.
> 
> As for an adult....well, like I said, I agree with what you said above...words on a screen really can't physically hurt you.  Its easy to block someone, ignore someone, etc.  Yet, interestingly enough, I've seen some reported posts by people on this forum, who I swear seem devastated by what others say.  So that said, I have to wonder.....are those words really hurtful....or should people just man up and not let it bother them?


Just want to point out again that Bullying /= Murder or suicide.  Or even physical pain.  Guys, let's remember what we're talking about here.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 1, 2011)

what ended ww2?
ww1?
the revolution?
name me ONE war that was ended by negotiation.......

the cold war? nope

diplomacy always fails, and violence always gets the other guy to agree to try diplomacy

violence gets stuff done

read your own signature



stevebjj said:


> What???  Are you saying that aggression and violence have solved more problems than diplomacy and negotiation?  You're kidding.  Right?  You're being sarcastic.


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## Steve (Oct 1, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> what ended ww2?
> ww1?
> the revolution?
> name me ONE war that was ended by negotiation.......
> ...


Ahhh...  there's your problem.  Who the hell is talking about wars besides you?   We're talking about bullies.  Not WWII.   And of course a war is violent.  Jesus christ.  If it weren't violent, they'd call it something other than war.  

Are you saying that every conflict you have in your life ends with violence?  While I'm not surprised, I'm a little alarmed that you'd admit it so openly.  While wars might be inherently violent, adults typically use their words.  We like to try and teach our kids to do the same.   Do you teach kids at your school?  What a frightening thought.  What the hell kind of example are you setting?


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## Twin Fist (Oct 1, 2011)

are you capable of posting without throwing personal insults?

you last post alone contained no less than 5 insults and little else

I shall not let you get me in hot water. Go have your estrogen party on your own.

good bye


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## Cyriacus (Oct 1, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Ahhh...  there's your problem.  Who the hell is talking about wars besides you?   We're talking about bullies.  Not WWII.   And of course a war is violent.  Jesus christ.  If it weren't violent, they'd call it something other than war.
> 
> Are you saying that every conflict you have in your life ends with violence?  While I'm not surprised, I'm a little alarmed that you'd admit it so openly.  While wars might be inherently violent, adults typically use their words.  We like to try and teach our kids to do the same.   Do you teach kids at your school?  What a frightening thought.  What the hell kind of example are you setting?



Wars are just the Metaphor hes using, since everyone can Relate to them.

Hes saying, that hed rather take Action to Protect His Wellbeing, than to do place Dependence on Legal Systems. Which arent Present, for Online Bullies.
He already stated much earlier though, that He thinks People shouldnt be so Affected by such things.
It was mostly in Defense of His Opinion that this Discussion was Railroaded into Metaphorical Comparisons.

Read the Previous Page - He didnt mention Wars until He had to Defend His Viewpoint.

In any Case, perhaps be should Stop Bickering, and sway into things we wont Inherently Disagree on.
Gentlemen.
And Womenfolk.


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## seasoned (Oct 2, 2011)

We definitely have covered the issue of on line bullying, and have actually managed to try a hand at on line sparring. With that said, I assume you are now showing what shots below the belt are. At this point in a sparring match the ref would say "on the line, turn your back, fix your Gi, and sit legs crossed. Don't waste it all here, there will be other days. Just a thought.


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## Cyriacus (Oct 2, 2011)

seasoned said:


> We definitely have covered the issue of on line bullying, and have actually managed to try a hand at on line sparring. With that said, I assume you are now showing what shots below the belt are. At this point in a sparring match the ref would say "on the line, turn your back, fix your Gi, and sit legs crossed. Don't waste it all here, there will be other days. Just a thought.



...But whos Groin was Hurt in this Altercation?

Does He need a Doctor?
A...
Online Sparring...

GIMME A FEW MINUTES!

*You wouldnt know, but im leaving that in there for the sake of it. This is an Edit*
http://www.toribash.com/
HAHA!
Now we can Kill each other in Sparring. ONLINE!
Do I Win? The Bout?


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## Monroe (Oct 2, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> what ended ww2?
> ww1?
> the revolution?
> name me ONE war that was ended by negotiation.......
> ...



War between Britain and the US. Do you have any idea how many times Canada prepared for war post War 1812? In the end Britain and the US negotiated rather than going to war yet again.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 2, 2011)

because of the threat of war

it is NOT human nature to solve things peacefully

 Notice there are not cro-magnons AND neanderthalls anymore?  one killed the other out

and it isnt just us.

you ever see a lion negotiating with a gazelle?


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## WC_lun (Oct 2, 2011)

Again, TF, I can't actually believe you support the position you are taking here.  I think your own personal life probably is counter to your arguement.  How often do you resort to the threat of violence or violence itself in your dealings with other people?  I imagine in almost all cases you use "diplomacy," otherwise you're posting quite a bit for someone in prison and considered anti-social.

Diplomacy is the norm and used way more often than war, and successfully.  That is why war is considered a tool of last resort for sane people and war is seen as such a huge deal when it is done.  For an example, if diplomacy did not work, the Cuban missile crisis would have resulted in probable nuclear war with Russia.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Just want to point out again that Bullying /= Murder or suicide.  Or even physical pain.  Guys, let's remember what we're talking about here.



Hey Steve,

Yes, I see what you're saying.  My point with what I said was simply....apparently words are hurtful, because judging by the RTMs that I see, people are upset by them.

For what its worth, when I was in school, I was picked on/bullied.  Not to the extent of some, but it was bullying, nonetheless.  Was it upsetting?  Sure.  Did it bother me? Sure.  Did I think about taking my own life? Not at all.  Some deal with this differently, and sadly, many times, it results in suicide.  I think the way that I dealt with this, was a much more effective way, vs. killing myself.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 2, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> For an example, if diplomacy did not work, the Cuban missile crisis would have resulted in probable nuclear war with Russia.



yes, it worked because of the threat of violence if the russians didnt back down

the threat of war was the deciding factor, not hand holding, not shared feelings.

the threat of nuclear war made the russians blink, and back down, 

Saddam didnt respond to us till we told him in no uncertain terms that we would take his head.

gadaffi saw what happened to saddam, and just the threat of it happening to him made him back down.

you just proved my point for me


Diplomacy, without the threat of war to back it up never works, never has worked and never will. It flies in the face of reality and 4 billion years of genetic coding.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2011)

The thread has drifted a bit, but I'll try to catch up.

First, I understand that war was used as a metaphor.  I think it was a pretty bad one.  I don't believe that people are in combat daily.  But the point that I was making is that by the time you're in a war, you are in a war.  Seems pretty obvious, but related to bullies, by the time you're in a fight, you're in a fight.  But that ignores every time there was conflict without violence.  People can be at odds with each other without violence.  

@MJS, that's what I was driving at.  Not about words.  Words can be irritating, but that usually doesn't translate to violence.  In responding to the points about murder, I was really responding to the general drift of the thread that seemed to be equating bullying necessary to physical violence, and even in some posts directly to death and murder. 

While bullying CAN involve physical violence, it is often more subtle.  While it CAN end with suicide in some very extreme cases, it often does not.  Most people are bullied at some time in their lives or another, and just about everyone survives. 

That's really what I was getting at.  While I am interested in the topic of bullying, and in this thread, cyberbullying, I want to be careful not to move to a more extreme position that I believe is reasonable.  

As for insulting you, Twin Fist, I disagree almost 100% with almost everything you say.  I try to address your posts, and not attack you.  If you feel attacked, it doesn't matter what I intended, and I apologize.  You mentioned that you've been bullied all your life, and for my part, I'm going to make an effort to stop picking on you here.


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## Blade96 (Oct 3, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> what ended ww2?
> ww1?
> the revolution?
> name me ONE war that was ended by negotiation.......
> ...



Korean war was stopped by peace talks (though there was not any peace treaty signed, technically they are still at war because there was no paper signalling war's over)


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> Korean war was stopped by peace talks (though there was not any peace treaty signed, technically they are still at war because there was no paper signalling war's over)


http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Fight-Avoiding-Surviving/dp/1592406319/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_2

Heard about this book on the radio driving in this morning.  Written by a couple of karate school owners in West Seattle.  It's called *How to Win a Fight:  A Guide to Avoiding and Surviving Violence. *

I still maintain that most bullying does not involve physical violence.  But to address a larger point made about violence in general, this book, according to the interview with the author I heard today, talks primarily about how to avoid violence.  It discusses de-esclalation, conflict avoidance and all of the things I've talked about in other threads that I believe are MORE important skills in self defense than being able to fight.  

Violence or the threat of violence isn't as pervasive as some here suggest.  We have to be able and willing to do what needs to be done, but recognize that violence on any scale is usually avoidable and often unnecessary.


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## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2011)

TF, I do not think your point has been proven, but whatever.  Why don't you answer my question about how often you use violence or the threat of violence in your own life? I think that is more indicitive to the truth of your theory than anything else.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2011)

" Korean war was stopped by peace talks "
yeah, diplomacy AFTER 4 years of fighting.

diplomacy without the threat of violence behind it doesnt work.

is anyone seriously trying to dispute that?


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2011)

5th

i wont admit to comitting any crimes on a message board



WC_lun said:


> TF, I do not think your point has been proven, but whatever.  Why don't you answer my question about how often you use violence or the threat of violence in your own life? I think that is more indicitive to the truth of your theory than anything else.


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## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> 5th
> 
> i wont admit to comitting any crimes on a message board



This is a cop out, since I did not ask for specifics.  That you don't want to answer seems to support mt point.  Normal, well adjusted, people do not rely on or use violence as a normal part of thier interactions with other people.  People who do are an aberation and one reason bullying is so frowned upon.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 3, 2011)

Moreover, Twin Fist, you are more making conjecture, rather than evidence. A vast body of anthropological research would indicate that the threat of violence is NOT the only thing that causes groups of people together. "Human nature" is not inherently violent or non-violent, but rather survival-oriented.

But also, to offer some experiential rather than strictly scientific evidence, my work as a security guard tends to be hindered rather than aided when I opt for threat of violence over diplomacy.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2011)

i agree with you, most people dont resort to violence to solve problems. Thats because most people dont ever solve problems, they ignore them. no one is talking about starting trouble, i am talking about ENDING trouble.

no one is talking about starting trouble, i am talking about ENDING trouble.

violence in self defense isnt bullying, so you need to stop saying it is the same thing, it isnt

violence is, at worst a response to bullying. At best, it is the single most effective means of solving SOME problems.

Here is something specific, some one not long ago was messing with me, and I tried to talk to him and i tried to ask him why and I asked him not to, but and nothing mattered

he was a ****-head and he liked to mess with people

he learned not to mess with me. that was a couple years ago. 

if someone puts thier hands on you and you try diplomacy? you dont deserve to pass on your defective genes

DEFEND YOURSELF

this is a board about martial arts, right?
martial arts are about self defense right?




WC_lun said:


> This is a cop out, since I did not ask for specifics.  That you don't want to answer seems to support mt point.  Normal, well adjusted, people do not rely on or use violence as a normal part of thier interactions with other people.  People who do are an aberation and one reason bullying is so frowned upon.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 3, 2011)

Oh, we weren't still talking about online bullying?


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## Twin Fist (Oct 3, 2011)

we should have been, but some people get obsessed with character assaination and drag stuff in corners to achieve that end.

online bullying:

no such thing, they can try, but you dont have to let them succeed

not talking about kids though kids with enough mental strength should be able to deal with it.

talking about adults. no such thing


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## Steve (Oct 3, 2011)

I will just say in general that if violence is the only tool you have in your toolbox for solving interpersonal problems, you can do better.  De-escalation, conflict avoidance and techniques that will help defuse tough situations exist.  These skills are also taught to mediators and professional facilitators, but you don't need to be either to improve.

If violence is the only tool you have in your self defense arsenal, you can also do better.  All of the skills I just mentioned are taught at any good self defense school.  If you don't have an interest or access to mediation training, check out good self defense schools in your area.  They are sure to teach these skills.  

If violence is the only way you know how to resolve issues with people who disagree with you, you are a bully.   In fact, that's exactly how I would define a bully.  It's someone who doesn't have the skills to interact with others without conflict.  

@ Twin Fist, As I said before, I believe I attacked your posts, and not you, but that you feel picked on is important.  I apologized for picking on you.  If you keep sniping, that's on you.  Not me.  At this point, you're digging at me, trying to get a rise, and that reflects entirely on you.


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