# Western Boxing



## ThuNder_FoOt

Hey everyone, I just thought I should start a boxing thread. Even though it is a sport, i consider it a martial art as well. Any tips , tricks, or comments?:asian:


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## GouRonin

While Boxing is a sport it is also one of the earliest european and western martial arts.

it was not uncommon for men to settle disputes with it. Nor to see travelling shows that offered boxing to people for money.

Many military people do it get an all around base with their H2H and often, due to it's need in the early west and in the rough european world it was developed into a very neasty science. The advent of prison programs in which boxing was introduced also further developed it.


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## bscastro

Boxing is a big element in my JKD class. I enjoy hitting the pads, heavy bag, and sparring. It is great cardiovascular training as well. 

Cheers,
Bryan


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## ThuNder_FoOt

JKD, do they practice straight boxing? or they practice with kicks? I was wondering , does JKD stay true to the boxing practice drills? or are they modified??:asian:


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## sweeper

"the boxing practice drills"
What boxing practice drills are these?

in my class we do all kinds of sparring, some of it with kicks some without. But we don't train as ring fighters (though we usualy fight with 16 oz boxing gloves) rules are desided on by the fighters (genneraly) and genneraly no one cares if you break a rule..  The only rule that no one breaks is no kicks above the knees when opponant doens't have a cup (anotherone is no hits to the head if opponant desn't have a mouth guard..  but more accidents happen there). But as far as small rules in boxing like stepping on feet and the limitations on standing grappaling..  usualy we don't fight with them.. There's just the genneral understanding that if you do something cheap it's gona come right back at you.


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## sweeper

http://go.to/stickgrappler

stickgrappler has archived some nice posts/articles on boxing. also has some links to some old boxing manuals.


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## bscastro

I think each instructor might be different in their focus depending on their training, but my instructor does train us in western boxing but also modifying some of the techniques for self-defense and as part of Thai boxing and Jun Fan kickboxing. So it is a mix for how he trains the boxing element. He did amateur boxing, so he shares his knowledge in that area.

Bryan


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## Stickgrappler

hello,

thanks sweeper, you beat me to it 

ThuNder_FoOt, i hope it helps. there is plenty of boxing info on my kick/boxing page.


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## ThuNder_FoOt

Thanks for the input everyone. I will definately check Stickgrappler's website, as I have only heard good things about his site. 

For anyone that didn't understand my question, I meant in reference to the drills practiced. Most boxing drills have you respond to someone who will be throwing boxing combinations, or mainly dealing with close quarters combat. Some are best used in the ring because of the specific conditions. As with anything, they can be adapted to different situations.... I was just wondering, in what manner are they are practiced. I was speaking in general terms, of course.:asian:


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## sweeper

in that case we do genneral boxing type drills as well as hybrid drills.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by ThuNder_FoOt _
> 
> *Hey everyone, I just thought I should start a boxing thread. Even though it is a sport, i consider it a martial art as well. Any tips , tricks, or comments?:asian: *


Sport boxing makes people reckless and leave openings, just like any sport martial art.

However, boxing does give you a good idea on combos and a good idea on distance judging for punches.  It is also good for a beginner because he starts using more advanced footwork.


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## bscastro

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> Sport boxing makes people reckless and leave openings, just like any sport martial art.
> 
> However, boxing does give you a good idea on combos and a good idea on distance judging for punches.  It is also good for a beginner because he starts using more advanced footwork. *



I have to disagree. I think boxing is a good supplement to any martial artist. It is not complete, but it teaches great body mechanics for upper body striking and actual sparring with contact teaches you many things, including timing, distance, how to take a punch, defending against punches, footwork, and conditioning.

How does boxing make people reckless? And how do other sport martial arts (I'm assuming you are referring to things like thai boxing, BJJ, Judo, and wrestling) make you reckless? As for leaving openings, I think all martial arts "systems" have their strengths and weaknesses.

Bryan


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## GouRonin

Please...Most boxers would kill most martial artists. It's a given. It's funny how _"sports"_ such as Boxing and Judo easily dominate these other arts which propose themselves to be self-defense. It's because of the training methods. So if you have sports which are more realistic than these arts I think that says something.
:asian:


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## tmanifold

Most _Boxers_ would kill most martial artists but _boxing_ would leave openings and create at best a incomplete system. That distinction is not made enough.


Tony


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## KennethKu

How is it possible that most boxers would kill most MArtists? Boxers leave their lower bodies wide open!!!  Any MA practitioner who is semi conscious would know NOT to duel a slug fest with a boxer and instead go for his weak point.  KICKS!!!!


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *How is it possible that most boxers would kill most MArtists? Boxers leave their lower bodies wide open!!!  Any MA practitioner who is semi conscious would know NOT to duel a slug fest with a boxer and instead go for his weak point.  KICKS!!!! *



You totally, completely, and utterly missed the point of my post. You are saying _boxing_ leaves a fighters lower body wide open. I am saying _boxers_ are tough, are used to getting hit, train against unco-operative opponents and hit really hard. Quite frankly, most MArtists don't train that way.

tony


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## KennethKu

I suppose we are talking about different groups of MArtists. Most that I know of, would take most boxers down in one kick.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *I suppose we are talking about different groups of MArtists. Most that I know of, would take most boxers down in one kick. *



You're a dope. Boxers have some of the best footwork of any martial artists and sport athletes. You're delusional if you think they're even going to be there when your kick is launched. They also have good perception of range etc because they use it. They can move in and nullify your kick or remove themselves from it. I'm not saying it's the best martial art but I am saying that even as a sport it is more effective than many martial arts. Hell, most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round then delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8 kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating people up. In the stand up game they're near the top of the list whether you like it or not.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *You're a dope. Boxers have some of the best footwork of any martial artists and sport athletes. You're delusional if you think they're even going to be there when your kick is launched. They also have good perception of range etc because they use it. They can move in and nullify your kick or remove themselves from it. I'm not saying it's the best martial art but I am saying that even as a sport it is more effective than many martial arts. Hell, most kickboxers only launch the required 8 kicks per round then delve right into punching. That is why they made the minimum 8 kicks per round. Because Boxers were coming in and eating people up. In the stand up game they're near the top of the list whether you like it or not. *




"....You're delusional if you think they're even going to be there when your kick is launched. They also have good perception of range etc because they use it. They can move in and nullify your kick or remove themselves from it....."

and what makes you think the MArtists don't already know and proficient at this too?  Even the color belts know about this basic stuff!!  Like I said , we must be talking about different groups of MArtists.  

A boxer is a lousy fighter but a good athlete.  That is beyond debate.  It is all too obvious.  You have to be brain dead NOT to attack the groin, the knees  . Any competent MArtist can kick the living day light out of most boxers.  I don't even know why I have to explain this.


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## Hansson

I trained boxing for four years. Our training sessions were maybe 40% sparring, 30% working on techniques and combinations and 30% cardio and strength. Offseason - more cardio and strength, competition season - more sparring.

I think boxing is great allround training. You get speed, strength and excellent endurance - sparring is so much tougher than it looks, partly because of the full power bodyshots. 

And just like in any martial art, the only way to get good is to spar a lot... no pads or sacks make you a good boxer!


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## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> "....You're delusional if you think they're even going to be there when your kick is launched. They also have good perception of range etc because they use it. They can move in and nullify your kick or remove themselves from it....."
> 
> and what makes you think the MArtists don't already know and proficient at this too?  Even the color belts know about this basic stuff!!  Like I said , we must be talking about different groups of MArtists.
> 
> A boxer is a lousy fighter but a good athlete.  That is beyond debate.  It is all too obvious.  You have to be brain dead NOT to attack the groin, the knees  . Any competent MArtist can kick the living day light out of most boxers.  I don't even know why I have to explain this. *



Okay wake up and check the sheets for a wet spot, I think you are having a wet dream.  The reason a boxer is so good at fighting is they do train full force, they hit each hard all the time.  Not like what most of us martial artists do, we have to pull our techniques or someone cold be seriuosly injured or worse.  This constant pulling of techniques is habit forming.  

A boxer may have less techniques than most martial artists but that allows them to truly master every punch in their arsenal.  From reading your post I can see you  haven't spent much time in the ring with a seasoned boxer, I suggest you try that for a while, and when the fog clears from the whuppin post your results.


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## KennethKu

If you check again, the wet spot is on you.

I can see how civilized the discussion at this thread is getting.

You are obviously incapable of making a distinction between rule based sport boxing, sport sparring and "everything goes" real fighting.

IF you really believe in your BS, I suggest you use your boxing style and go box with a Muah Thai boxer while letting the MT boxer uses his kicks and you stay with your fists only.  You don't even have to worry about groin and knees in this situation. And let see how many seconds it takes before you kiss the floor.

I see no point in participating in your childish insult and will not respond further to people who has a problem engaging in an adult conversation.


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## Bob Hubbard

ok folks, both sides had a lot of good points before things started drifting into the more childish aspects of things...  Can ya pick it up again, but without getting silly?  Greatly appreciated.  Thanks.


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## Baoquan

> _ originally posted by KennethKu_
> 
> IF you really believe in your BS, I suggest you use your boxing style and go box with a Muah Thai boxer while letting the MT boxer uses his kicks and you stay with your fists only. You don't even have to worry about groin and knees in this situation. And let see how many seconds it takes before you kiss the floor.



Dude, this has been done...as Gou said, boxers routinely took out thai boxers in fights under kick boxing rules. 

Yes, boxing has weaknesses, but its very very good at what it does...and what it does is produce KO's. If you've never trained in a boxig gym, i suggest giving it a go, and sparing hard with some of the fighters there. If you have, and still have that opinion, you were in the wrong gym.

 

Cheers

Baoquan.


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## Deathtrap101

as much as i hate saying it, i gota agree with all these other guys that boxers are very sharp and effiecent at what they do. They pile there butter on smaller peice of bread while we tend to spread it a bit more over a larger aray of weapons, taking much longer to get the consistency of butter that boxers have .


 I have spent some time boxing and well if i had to face off with one on the street im gonna make sure i put up a hell of a fight.

 You wanna be able to effiecently fight boxers, take some time to learn how they fight and what they do, and think smart. Theres alot more too it than the old "one,two" They are conditioned and they can MOVE.

 Boxers arnt invincible and niether are any other type of martial artists(not that im saying anyone said that). Its how i used to think when i first started martial arts.


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## sweeper

ok  KennethKu, it realy sounds like you havn't trained in boxing much, I mean I hanv't trained in boxing but I have trained with alot of boxers (my jkd instructor used to box so we do alot of boxing in class including drills and such but it's not the same). Every boxing gym is diffrent, alot of boxers do train elboes, head buts, stomps, eye gauges (with the thumb) raking with laces, arm bars..  the stuff works in the ring and you have to be aware of it because other people train it to hurt you..  ever look at a boxing glove? ever wonder why the thumb is strapped to the fingers? people gauge with the thumb, that was designed to try to minimise it..  a jab that hits the eye with the thumb is plenty of force to detatch the retna, so boxers know how to avoid being hit in the eyes (hell of a boxer can slip a punch comming with a huge mitton on it why couldn't they slip a eye jab to the point of making it miss their target) In my opinion alot of boxers are better at dirty techs than some martial artists because most martial artists don't do stuff like headbut a heavy bag or try sneaking in a low shot to the groin. a good boxer should have no problem with low line kicks because this should be a consideration in their training (because it comes up in the boxing ring) and full contact rules for kickboxing show that aything above the waist isn't nessisaraly usefull 100% of the time. I'm not saying that any boxer would kill any martial artist, I just think you are under estimating their capability.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Like I said , we must be talking about different groups of MArtists.*



Yeah, your imaginary world and the real one.



> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *A boxer is a lousy fighter but a good athlete.  That is beyond debate.  It is all too obvious.  You have to be brain dead NOT to attack the groin, the knees  . Any competent MArtist can kick the living day light out of most boxers.  I don't even know why I have to explain this. *



Probably because you're wrong. Simply put. Boxers are made to fight. That is what they do. They practice it all the time. Kahraddy guys whiz around mostly in the air or play point tag.

On average, if you go to any martial arts school and any boxing gym you'll see that a boxer will take out the karateka. While you're flipping at the knees etc he's punching your lights out. Boxers train in a concentrated constant realistic manner for what they intend to achieve. Karate guys tend to have these wild feats of endurance they practice for only on testing day.

Sweeper put it best when he explained that there is more to boxing that obviously you understand. Deathtrap also put it nicely when he said while most martial artists are trying to evolve this large pool of techniques and material the boxer is like a guy sharpening a knife. He only has 8-10 tools he uses on a regular basis and use them he does. While you're collecting bags of plastic knives he's sharpening his one or two swords.

There are martial artists out there who train hard and realistically and are genuine tough people who put their knowledge of the art to use and can make it work. But when you look at all the soccer moms and their kids and the corner strip mall dojo and then compare that to a local boxing gym, well, kick at the legs and groin all you want. It ain't doing squat.


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## arnisador

It's not going to be nearly that easy to catch a boxer with a kick to the groin--and a groin kick isn't necessarily a fight-ender when you've got a moving opponent who may not catch it full-on dead-center.

Boxers train longer and harder than most martial artists. It shows. They're not invincible, but actually hitting people helps make you a better fighter. I'd rather wrestle a boxer than kick one frankly.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It's not going to be nearly that easy to catch a boxer with a kick to the groin--and a groin kick isn't necessarily a fight-ender when you've got a moving opponent who may not catch it full-on dead-center.
> Boxers train longer and harder than most martial artists. It shows. They're not invincible, but actually hitting people helps make you a better fighter. I'd rather wrestle a boxer than kick one frankly. *



Which was why I started Judo/BJJ originally. Boxers have a lot of nasty tricks that help deal with in close fighting, almost stand up grappling. But You take them out of their element for a good portion of what they want to do when they hit the ground. Why? because they don't train there. Don't kid yourself into thinking they can't do anything down there but the grappling is the way to go.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *.........There are martial artists out there who train hard and realistically and are genuine tough people who put their knowledge of the art to use and can make it work. But when you look at all the soccer moms and their kids and the corner strip mall dojo and then compare that to a local boxing gym, well, kick at the legs and groin all you want. It ain't doing squat....... *




LIKE I SAID, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONERS.

You are guys are talking about  Soccer moms/ hobbyists  amateurs and teen blackbelts.  Most of the MArtists I know of, are NOT products of your typical McDojo.

Of course, when you are talking about the hobbyists MA folks, they are NOT real martial artists.  That is all too obvious that they are not trained to fight. I don't even understand why you people still want to hang on to such painfully obvious fact.  Don't you all already know this??

From all your comments, one has no choice but to conclude that there are wide spread lack of understanding of the realistic striking power of  serious TKD, KT and JKD experts.  It is very sad that people look at McDojo, soccer moms and teen blackbelts, and they think that is the real TKD, KT or JKD.  I would think that you guys ought to know better.   

An art that limit itself to the use of hands only, is inherently at a disadvantage to one that uses all human weapons available.  And then to twist the argument into  one that  distorts the type of  participants to give obvious one sides advantage to the boxers,  brings to a totally waste of time conver.

If you insist on comparing  trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a  true waste of time.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> * Dude, this has been done...as Gou said, boxers routinely took out thai boxers in fights under kick boxing rules. .... *



Really?  Routinely???  

Yeah. When they "routinely" go over to Thailand and win the prized MT fights, then that will shed some credibility to such claim.


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## Baoquan

Just discussing that which i have witnesssed. 

I'm in  Australia, which is quite close to Thailand, and we have a lot of thai trained kickboxers and yes, even REAL thai fighters competing in the Australian kickboxing scene. This is the forum in which trad boxers compete with thai fighters. 

And yes, routinely, the boxers win. Not always, but often, especially under modified thai rules. 

You will also note that a lot of the guys in this discussion are not "soccer moms", nor are they hobbyists, and they are of the opinion that boxers are excellent, capable martial artists.



> If you insist on comparing trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a true waste of time.



this is also true if one refuses to even consider an interlocutors opinion....

Cheers

Baoquan.


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## MartialArtist

Most of you are delusional.

Boxing is a great art if you train in it properly.  Same with any martial art.

I have trained in boxing.  It's as good as any art.  Trained properly, it may be all you need.  Label it incomplete, but if you are fairly good at it and are quick, you won't need to know how to kick properly.  That is in theory though.

It is true in the sport sense, boxing isn't the best, just like any martial art trained as a sport.  Reason is you become reckless and leave openings like the groin and such open.

Boxers routinely take out muay thai fighters?  Depends on skill, experience, and the physical state of the given state.  But I have seen numerous muay thai boxers take out boxers, one of them being ranked #3 in some organization.  Not the best organization but one that is well-respected.

All of you, especially Baoquan, are misled.  Probably a boxer against any McDojo practitioner, regardless of the system.

Boxers in the West do train longer and most of the times, harder.  But only the dedicated train like people in the East do.  Professionals do train hard, but I don't think they're ready for how they train like they do in Asia.  Totally different schemes.  I don't think the instructor hits you with a stick if you do something wrong, like if you can't do pushups until he says you're done, on the knuckles, on concrete, and over a river so if you fall, you will probably get wet.  And in 40-50 degree weather without anything but pants.  Now, 9000 push-ups aren't beneficial physical wise, but it's more of a mental thing, and they have a lot of that.

What determines how hard you train is up to you, it can't be determined by style or whatnot.  It is up to YOU how much effort and dedication you put.  But trust me, the results are worth it.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> *Just discussing that which i have witnesssed.
> 
> I'm in  Australia, which is quite close to Thailand, and we have a lot of thai trained kickboxers and yes, even REAL thai fighters competing in the Australian kickboxing scene. This is the forum in which trad boxers compete with thai fighters.
> 
> And yes, routinely, the boxers win. Not always, but often, especially under modified thai rules.
> 
> You will also note that a lot of the guys in this discussion are not "soccer moms", nor are they hobbyists, and they are of the opinion that boxers are excellent, capable martial artists.
> 
> 
> 
> this is also true if one refuses to even consider an interlocutors opinion....
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Baoquan. *


Boxers = Capable Martial Artists = Yes
Boxers > Muay Thai = No
Boxers < Muay Thai = No

This is very liberal, but just see it.  Baoquan, if you're making a point that boxers are great martial artists, you are right.  If you insist that boxing is better than muay thai, you are wrong.


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## Baoquan

> . Baoquan, if you're making a point that boxers are great martial artists, you are right. If you insist that boxing is better than muay thai, you are wrong.



not in the slightest...i have a very high regard for MT...just making a point that in professional competiton, boxers do well against MT fighters....



> All of you, especially Baoquan, are misled.



please, educate me.

Baoquan.


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## KennethKu

Any competent MArtists would know  Never to box a boxer  and never to wrestle a wrestler.

So all these BS about  "yeah go into the ring and  box a boxer and find out how good a boxer is", is just what it is , BS.   Firm grasp for the obvious.

To defeat a boxer, you obviously NOT going to box him! DUH!!!

So the obvious choice is to KICK him. And if you can't kick , then face your limitation and go train your kicks.  If your kick has no power then work the bag.  There is no magic there.

Again, this is obvious and plainfully so. Most MArtists already know this.  I can't believe I have to repeat it here.


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## tmanifold

This is getting pointless,

to sum up,
side 1
Boxers don't fight with kicks or groin shots, etc so they would lose to any Martial artists( oh by the way, an average martial artist is not a hardcore JKD expert)
Side 2
Boxers train full contact against resisting opponents so they would beat your average martial artist,

Close enough,

Now, if a Martial artist trained like a boxer, with full contact fights etc. Then he would have the advantage in a real fight. And if a Boxer refused to fight outside the rules he would be at a disadvantage.

Here is a better comparison: an average boxer (not a pro just someone who boxes) and an average martial artist(not an expert just some one does martial arts) and set them against the same street tough. How would do better? I would argue the boxers for all the reasons that have been put forward. Does this mean everyone should quit their chosen art and start to box? NO!!! Just in corporate some of the training methods that make boxers so good into your training.

Tony


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## Baoquan

{appluads}


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## J-kid

Well i do UFC fights with my friends and we really go at it ,  some of my friends take TKD some do boxing some do kung fu, ETC


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## J-kid

But i do Judo jijutsu and wrestling and other styles of grappling mixed in with some kicks i pratice and boxing ,  First off you wanna play your game , when i am UFC fighting my friends i dont Just punch the boxer ,  I dont just kick with The tdk friend,  I do grappling because it would not be smart to play there game with them, Doing Judo/Jijutsu Other forms of Wrestling works well on ,  You gotta use what you pratice ,  and i think full contact sparring is a good way to train every month i would say i do a full contact sparring with friends work on new moves test each other,  It really gives you the feel of the fight .  If the commen MAist did this they would be alot more stronger,  Rules i use if you are thinking of doing this here they are,
No poking eyes
Half power to hits to the head 
full power to body
no kicks to the balls area inless wearing cups
no head butts
no pulling hair
Ref will break fights up , If it looks to be a TKO
Or if they are holding each other on ground Ref will stand fighters up, rounds last like this first round 8 mins second round 5 and thrid round 5  ,  At the end if nither fighter has been KO or TKO or Submitted ,  Then the people watching the fight will deside the winner after fights we work on counters ,  diffrent skills , Trade moves ,  and work on team fighting,   We also put gloves on and box from time to time , with boxing rules.  we also race and do other things , These events are fun, and test your ablity/inproves it.    hope you find this intresting and please be careful we Dont try to hurt each other ,  Because we are friends,  Also please wear Gloves /cup /mouth guard,  HAVE FUN your friend Judo-kid


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## bscastro

To piggyback on *tmanifold* said. I think that one of the points was that boxing practices their techniques against partners/opponents who resist 100%. I think we can incorporate this in our training. 

I'm going to steal a quote from Burton Richardson when I met him. When you lift weights, you don't just start off with 500 pounds on the bar. Same thing with martial arts, fighting...you don't start with your partner resisting totally. But as the drills, techniques get easier to apply because you've learned them, your partner has to put up some resistance. This all ends up with full-contact sparring (within safety of course). 

Check out Straightblast Gym . Matt Thornton has more insightful things to say about Sport vs. Street as well as resistance in training.

Good training to all,
Bryan


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## Zujitsuka

bcastro, we are in agreement that Matt Thornton handles the "street v. sport" debate very well.  Also, it seems that a lot of people get caught up in 'my art is better than your art' thing.  However, I humbly submit that it is not a matter of what art you practice, but HOW you practice.  If there isn't any hard contact and a resisting, motivated opponent, you cannot truly gauge and improve your martial skills.

All the best.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *LIKE I SAID, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT GROUPS OF MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONERS.
> 
> If you insist on comparing  trained boxers vs soccer moms, then this whole discussion is indeed a  true waste of time. *



Nice waffle.

Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.

If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.

At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.

Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.

This conversation is finished.


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## arnisador

There's also a paper-scissors-rock effect to consider. A boxer might beat a karateka, but the karateka might beat a person with a weapon, whereas the person with the weapon might defeat the boxer. For example, while a boxer might well take out a FMA person one-on-one, the FMA person would have a much better chance against a trained knife fighter than the boxer (though going up against a trained knife fighter is a horrendously bad situation to be in).

One doesn't choose the martial arts over boxing just because of who would win one-on-one; there's weapons, multiple attackers, etc., plus the issue that boxing can be hard on a body. I'm sure no one picked fights with Muhammed Ali in the day, but was it worth it to end up with Parkisonianism? Karate might be tough on the joints but it protects one's _health_ in ways that boxing, as usually practiced, cannot. If you don't live in a high-threat environment there's a real issue as to whether it's worth the risk of being injured in training in order to keep from being injured in a fight.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Nice waffle.
> 
> Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.
> 
> If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.
> 
> At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.
> 
> Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.
> 
> This conversation is finished. *



Nice waffle is your absurd statement about most boxers will kill most MArtists.  That is only because 1. most of the MArtists you know SUCK. 2. Your own MA training sucks when compare to the average boxing.

What is moronic is an idiot who is confusing soccer moms with a true TKD/KT/JKD expert.

May be you should sign up for  TKD/KT/JKD lesson so that you don't pee in you pants every time you see a boxer.  

Like I said, if you can't kick then just admit it. Just b/c you kick like Oprah, don't assume others kick like you. Just b/c your MA training sucks, don't project that onto everyone else.


Any competent MArtist would have a field day going up against a boxer.    

The only one who pees in his pants,  namely you sir,  has to be b/c you can't kick!  LOL   Try learning a MA that trains you legs, and stop whining.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *......At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story............/B]*


*

Here is the proof that you don't know jack sh!t about karate.

That statement is a testament to total ignorance. Thankyou for revealing yourself.*


----------



## KennethKu

I apologize to the readers who read this thread, for resorting to verbal attack. Unfortunately my repeated  avoidance of direct retaliation has failed to discourage continued  personal attack.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM.  If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.


With all things being equal, either side could take the other.  When things are not equal, then training, skill, luck and conditioning will be the deciding factor.  Any argument over who is superior will only result in heavy opinions and heat.  A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists.  A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers.  A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer.  Most boxers have better conditioning than most MAists. Does it really matter?  The reason why we have 2000+ different arts is because someone wanted to focus on something.  ALL! arts have strong and weak points.  The key is understanding where your -primary- arts weakness is, and complementing it with something that strengthens your weaknesses while reinforcing your strengths.

We are all supposed to be somewhat professionals...lets act like it.

If we can not return this thread to a serious content discussion, we will be forced to lock it.  I'd prefer not to as there has been some real good information presented.


Take the personal issues private.
Thank you.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *.......  A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists.  A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers.  A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer..... *




THAT is exactly what I said in a previous post, that you don't go box a boxer NOR wrestle a wrestler.  And yet, people keep arguing how good a boxer is at boxing.   And  about how a boxer can beat a soccer mom .  Geee ! DUH!!!  Say something we haven't heard of! :shrug: 

The debate didn't started with the average boxer vs the average MArtist. The debate started over the absurd statement that "most boxers will kill most MArtists"  .  That statement is simply false.

Most boxers can beat most soccer mom type MArtists. But most boxers will LOSE to most Martial Art EXPERTS. By that I am referring to TKD /KT/JKD experts who can kick.  May be most boxers will just plug Stalin's Pigeons. LOL  I don't know .

A TKD kick that can break 3-5 boards easily , is going to dispatch your boxer's knees in no time.  Here is a direct quote from tmaniford's own website :

"..The Knee Kick
This can be done either as a front kick, as in the picture, or a side kick. Both are extremely effective, *it takes very little strength to break a knee*......."

If people don't know this, I am truly shocked.


No body says boxing is useless.  JKD incorporates a lot of boxing techniques for its efficiency.   Boxing has great conditioning methods and realistic sparring.  No one disputes that every serious MArtist should incorporate Boxing conditioning as part of his/her training.  That is painfully obvious.  

It is equally obvious that there are a lot of McDojo and plenty of fake MArtists who are basically hobbyists.  And there are probably alot of so called martial artists who have practiced a few months of some whacky MA called 7ShootingStar or 18WhitehorsePalms or PrayingWhiteCrane, taught by a couple of part time Chinese cooks moonlighting as sifu or sigung or some secret heir to these ultra secret MA, descended directly from a non existing WhiteTiger Heavanly Temple  stuck in some secret valley north of HeilungJiang in China.  Sheeze.  We all know that these are UNTESTED UNPROVEN with dubious credibility. THere is no point in bringing them into the equation.

It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.  

And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring.  It is like a dream come through.

All these are so obvious.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

You hit on several key points there:



> It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.
> 
> And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring. It is like a dream come through.



Its been said that every 'group' creates rules that favor itself.  I see this as no different.  I've trained in several styles..done sparing in several too.  The Kenpo school I used to frequent would limit your targets to the upper torso, minus the head.  Punch only.  The Arnis school I activly train in now on the other hand allows a lot more freedom in movement and targeting.  We wear a lot more safety gear to allow for this though.  Still pull the impact though.  When we do bag/pad work we hit a lot harder.  

I see the MA vs boxer issue as this : The boxer can take more impact and will hit harder.  The MA will not necesarily hit as hard, however he may hit more important spots that will neutralize the boxers power.  Again, we can look at it from all angles and still come up at a draw.  If we play the game of 'you hit then I hit" well, I think the boxer will come out ahead, although I believe many Karate styles can go toe-to-toe no problem.  I recently watch Frank Trejo do a sparing clinic at a Kenpo camp...He's worked with boxers, and mentioned some of their weaknesses...  even so, I don't care how fancy the kick or punch is, if you cant avoid it, cant block it, cant deflect it and can't absorb it, then, youre gonna hurt.  I've seen 3rd degree -experienced- competition MA folks KO-d by an 8yr ol cuz they hit -just right-.

Its all in the training and conditioning. 1 lucky shot though....
I dont care what the art is, if you only do it 45 minutes a week, youre gonna finish way behind the guy doing it 8 hrs a day.

Serious boxers and serious MAists train regularly and seriously... the hobbiests do it 2x a week if Bonanzas not on.


and I'm ending here cuz I lost my train of thought...heh.:asian:


----------



## sweeper

if you don't go full power it isn't even close to UFC, judo kid I realy suggest you head up to kirkland for a day and see if you can spar at AMC, "Well i do UFC fights with my friends and we really go at it , some of my friends take TKD some do boxing some do kung fu, ETC" UFC is a specific organisation with specific rules, what you do sounds more like dog brothers sparring with no sticks : )

(edit) Almost forgot, Gou I looked in gray's anatomy and it is physicly imposable for your jaw bone to nock into your brain.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> *
> 
> please, educate me.
> 
> Baoquan. *


Professional competition...  I doubt they are prized MT fighters, name a couple of them.  Also, sport style is different from military versions, so depending on rules, a sport style CAN have an advantage over the other.  In real life, the advantage is never there against experienced fighters.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> 
> *bcastro, we are in agreement that Matt Thornton handles the "street v. sport" debate very well.  Also, it seems that a lot of people get caught up in 'my art is better than your art' thing.  However, I humbly submit that it is not a matter of what art you practice, but HOW you practice.  If there isn't any hard contact and a resisting, motivated opponent, you cannot truly gauge and improve your martial skills.
> 
> All the best. *


Everybody listen to him, he is wise, it was what I was saying all along.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> Nice waffle.
> 
> Anyway, even at the soccor mom and teen black belt level boxers at the same level would school them. ie Average karateka vs average boxer.
> 
> If you want to go more hardcore then you have the more hardcore boxers who would still school them. ie - the pros.
> 
> At each level, on the whole the boxer eats the karateka up. End of story.
> 
> Boxers do a lot more than you think anyway. Your thoughts that they would be wide open as you think below the waist is moronic. Sure boxers can be beat but you're living with your head either up your @ss or in the sand thinking the way you do. Either way, I could care less because you're entitled to be wrong all you want in a free society.
> 
> This conversation is finished. *


Judging from where you're from, I doubt you have seen any art other than boxing or wrestling in its true form, because you are probably used to McDojo practitioners or people who think they're all at it.

If it was true, how did Cheung beat a prized boxer?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM.  If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.
> 
> 
> With all things being equal, either side could take the other.  When things are not equal, then training, skill, luck and conditioning will be the deciding factor.  Any argument over who is superior will only result in heavy opinions and heat.  A boxer will punch harder than most martial artists.  A TKDer will have better kicks than most boxers.  A Grappler will have a better ground game than a boxer.  Most boxers have better conditioning than most MAists. Does it really matter?  The reason why we have 2000+ different arts is because someone wanted to focus on something.  ALL! arts have strong and weak points.  The key is understanding where your -primary- arts weakness is, and complementing it with something that strengthens your weaknesses while reinforcing your strengths.
> 
> We are all supposed to be somewhat professionals...lets act like it.
> 
> If we can not return this thread to a serious content discussion, we will be forced to lock it.  I'd prefer not to as there has been some real good information presented.
> 
> 
> Take the personal issues private.
> Thank you. *


Actually, the conditioning for boxers isn't better than anyone dedicated enough.  Of course, boxers watch their diet on taking 5g of protein for every pound of muscle, etc., but both Eastern and Western martial artists do a lot of conditioning.  I remember when I was younger I had to run up a pretty decent-sized mountain in Korea.  Not snow-capped, but it was pretty high.  Oh yeah, we carried a small log from a string and worked up bigger and bigger.  We also ran 30 miles in the morning.  I also remember running in the morning for wrestling camp in the US, and doing lots of cardio for boxing.  So it's not really a matter of art.  You can't just say boxers train harder than wrestlers and visa versa.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> THAT is exactly what I said in a previous post, that you don't go box a boxer NOR wrestle a wrestler.  And yet, people keep arguing how good a boxer is at boxing.   And  about how a boxer can beat a soccer mom .  Geee ! DUH!!!  Say something we haven't heard of! :shrug:
> 
> The debate didn't started with the average boxer vs the average MArtist. The debate started over the absurd statement that "most boxers will kill most MArtists"  .  That statement is simply false.
> 
> Most boxers can beat most soccer mom type MArtists. But most boxers will LOSE to most Martial Art EXPERTS. By that I am referring to TKD /KT/JKD experts who can kick.  May be most boxers will just plug Stalin's Pigeons. LOL  I don't know .
> 
> A TKD kick that can break 3-5 boards easily , is going to dispatch your boxer's knees in no time.  Here is a direct quote from tmaniford's own website :
> 
> "..The Knee Kick
> This can be done either as a front kick, as in the picture, or a side kick. Both are extremely effective, it takes very little strength to break a knee......."
> 
> If people don't know this, I am truly shocked.
> 
> 
> No body says boxing is useless.  JKD incorporates a lot of boxing techniques for its efficiency.   Boxing has great conditioning methods and realistic sparring.  No one disputes that every serious MArtist should incorporate Boxing conditioning as part of his/her training.  That is painfully obvious.
> 
> It is equally obvious that there are a lot of McDojo and plenty of fake MArtists who are basically hobbyists.  And there are probably alot of so called martial artists who have practiced a few months of some whacky MA called 7ShootingStar or 18WhitehorsePalms or PrayingWhiteCrane, taught by a couple of part time Chinese cooks moonlighting as sifu or sigung or some secret heir to these ultra secret MA, descended directly from a non existing WhiteTiger Heavanly Temple  stuck in some secret valley north of HeilungJiang in China.  Sheeze.  We all know that these are UNTESTED UNPROVEN with dubious credibility. THere is no point in bringing them into the equation.
> 
> It is equally painfully obvious that most MA experts will be at a disadvantage, if they step into the ring to box a boxer under boxing rules.
> 
> And most TKD/KT/JKD experts will have a field day coming up against a boxer, in a real fight outside the ring.  It is like a dream come through.
> 
> All these are so obvious. *


Boxing, used correctly, can defeat any person of any art(s).  This is true with ALL arts.  Ever seen Sugar Ray move?  Almost as graceful as Bruce Lee and was poetry in motion.  Using that kind of footwork can allow you to overcome many opponents.


----------



## KennethKu

Well, you need to define "used correctly".  B/c "in theory" and "ideally", "used correctly" everything works. That may be little more than philosophical value. That is NOT TAKING into consideration of real practical use.

Ok, now what is the first line of attack in JKD?  Low side kick to the shin or the knee.  Every time the boxer attacks, he makes his lower body within range of a kick before he is in range to throw a punch. (Proper side kick involves you leaning away from the target, rendering your upper body out of the opponent's range. ) That is a built in disadvantage for the boxer. 

Footwork alone is not enough to compensate that as the competent MA has his/her own footwork to counter and manage the strike range too.


----------



## Baoquan

> _Originally posted by MArtialArtist_
> 
> Professional competition... I doubt they are prized MT fighters, name a couple of them. Also, sport style is different from military versions, so depending on rules, a sport style CAN have an advantage over the other. In real life, the advantage is never there against experienced fighters.



Ok...Ex-World Champion boxer Lester Ellis retired from boxing, then four years later tried his hand at kickboxing...but was the kind of fighter that threw his requisite number of kicks and then did mostly handwork.

He fought 3 times, knocking the first two out, then fighting current World Champ Steve Douett (giving up 14 years to him!!), losing to a split points decision, that many in the crowd deserved to go to Ellis (i was not one of them....i think Douett deserved the win).

Steve Douett is a prized thai style MT fighter, who couldn't lay any real power on Ellis for the  entire fight...

So...is a world champion considered a good enough opponent for a trad boxer to tackle??

This is AGAIN, not to say western boxing is superior to MT, but that a competent western boxer can compete with and defeat 
 competant MT fighters.

Cheers

Baoquan.


----------



## J-kid

Yeah might go up there.  Thinking of joining kenpo,  On the side of Judo/JiJutsu,  Got to work hard on my Judo Jijutsu, was working with  A bjj guy today at my gym was fun.  Your friend Judo-kid


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *(edit) Almost forgot, Gou I looked in gray's anatomy and it is physicly imposable for your jaw bone to nock into your brain. *



That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.

Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Guys, if you feel the need to exchange insults, please take it to email or PM.  If you can't prove your point without resorting to insults and namecalling, then perhaps your point can't be proven.
> Thank you. *



No worries dude. This guy is talking out of his @ss anyway. I concluded that in my last post and said I was through discussing anything with him because he's so delusional. Not only is he wrong, everyone but him knows it. His cheap shots are kinda funny though because he has no clue what kind of training I have. But I have better things to do than sort it out with some @ss clown like him. I'd beat him hands down with a hangover. I know it. He knows it, and everyone else here knows it. Heck, I'd probably shove his wallet in his @ss after I cleaned it out (I don't fight for free ya know) when I was done for sh*ts and giggles. Then he can run back to his little _"Sensei"_ and have him pull it out so he can fork over some more money to find out why his TKD didn't save him.

End...of...story.


----------



## sweeper

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.
> 
> Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against. *



true, but that mouth guard wouldn't stop that from happening, it would still be transfered (with the exception of that small amount that would be absorbed by the material of the guard) also, if that were to be all there was to it any shot to the head would have a simular effect because you would be transfering force to the skull wich displaces it wich causes your brain to rock and gives a minor concusion causing it to re-boot. The jw is a more effective target because it acts as a folcrum(sp), it forces your head to twist in such a way that your brain more easily rocks. and in that case a mouth guard won't do jack (excet keep your teath from going through your toung or from them chipping). But I was mostly responding to their animation.

kenethku, I assume you practice the martial arts you mention, I would point out that in jkd there is alot more than the lead shin kick because that lead shin kick doesn't always work, it won't always break the shin and it won't always hit. My point is just because you are good with kicks doesn't mean you arne't going to box. This is the same argument I see TKD exponants claiming on RMA, that no one will ever get past their kicks, the counter argument is always "why havn't there ever been any UFC champs that one strictly by kicks". in fact, I would point you in the direction of san shou and most NHB ring fights where direct kicks (like thrusts stomps and side kicks) are legaly targeted to the knees..  knees don't break very easily, it all depends on their physical orientation, if your leg is straight than yes it is easy to hyper extend the knee joint, but if it is bent it is much much stronger (remember that vid clip that was going around of that mauy thai fight where one guy broke his shin on the other guys knee?) and every boxer I have seen as well as every martial artist does bend their knees, also I don't think your comparison is fare. You are comparing an average boxer to very selective styles of martial art, giving examples of people who train very hard within these selective styles and than saying that others who do not match this training are not true martial artists, I don't think you are on the same page as most people, that is to say most people would consider amuch broader group to be martial artists wich would change the whole average boxer vs average martial artist thing. If you make the statement that not all people who take lessons in a martial art are martial artists, than it is only fare to assume not all people who go to a boxing gym are boxers, with that statement I can put all kinds of qualifiers on who is and who isn't a boxer and change the situation to favor the boxers, however that isn't truely a fare argument. Let me re fraise the question. "an average student of boxing could defeat an average student of an other martial art" (no this isn't nessisaraly my perosna position it is simply easyer to argue from) we can not deny someone as a boxer now because they do study it, just as a D grade student at a college s still a student so is a D grade boxer, the same applies to the martial artist, a D grade student of karate is still a student of karate. Now with this situation I would favor the boxer if the statement was only made to include the US and canada (I know much less about other nations martial artists) simply because In my opinion your average student of boxing is better trained for any fighting situation than your average student of martial art because now students include all those soccer moms and their kids and anyone else who steps through the door of any crackpots school, I think this is how most people view the statement, the qualifiers you put on the statement made it "an average boxer could defeat an average fighter from JKD who trains as hard as the given boxer" I would disagree with the previous claim also (I know you only use JKD as an example but for pratical purposes I think the statment illustrates my point). It's all a matter of perspective and wording..


----------



## J-kid

Boxing is a great striking art with the hands,  Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down,  This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ.  Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away,  All depends on the fighters them selfs.  This is one of those of those what ifs.  All depends on the person the training,  Your friend JUDO-KID


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> *true, but that mouth guard wouldn't stop that from happening, it would still be transfered (with the exception of that small amount that would be absorbed by the material of the guard) also, if that were to be all there was to it any shot to the head would have a simular effect because you would be transfering force to the skull wich displaces it wich causes your brain to rock and gives a minor concusion causing it to re-boot. The jw is a more effective target because it acts as a folcrum(sp), it forces your head to twist in such a way that your brain more easily rocks. and in that case a mouth guard won't do jack (excet keep your teath from going through your toung or from them chipping). *



No mouth guard will stop that totally but the wipss one will more than any since it is a top and bottom one that locks the jaw. The single mouthpiece is really a piece of crap and only protects the teeth. It still allows for jaw movement. For more info go to www.wipss.com


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Boxing is a great striking art with the hands,  Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down,  This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ.  Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away,  All depends on the fighters them selfs.  This is one of those of those what ifs.  All depends on the person the training,  Your friend JUDO-KID *



And why is that?  B/c boxers leave their lower body wide open!


----------



## KennethKu

.


----------



## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> Judging from where you're from, I doubt you have seen any art other than boxing or wrestling in its true form, because you are probably used to McDojo practitioners or people who think they're all at it.
> 
> If it was true, how did Cheung beat a prized boxer? *



What is wrong with Canada? We have some top level martial artist up here. 

Mike Macdonald K-1 USA winner, Vancouver BC
Stan peterec 2 time world Kickboxing champion victoria BC
Tony blauer
Vlad Vasilev
Just to name a few off the top of my head

We have so many japanese and Chinese immigrants in Canada that I doubt we could get away with NOT seeing arts in true form. Hell, My Judo club has an eighth Dan from the Kodokan, you don't see those every day.

Don't mistake Canada for a backward hickville. We have every bit as diverse as the US but maybe with half the volume.

Tony


----------



## KennethKu

Really?

We thought you canucks live in igloo and drive dog sledge to work


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *kenethku, I assume you practice the martial arts you mention, I would point out that in jkd there is alot more than the lead shin kick because that lead shin kick doesn't always work, it won't always break the shin and it won't always hit. My point is just because you are good with kicks doesn't mean you arne't going to box. ...............
> 
> .....  knees don't break very easily, it all depends on their physical orientation, if your leg is straight than yes it is easy to hyper extend the knee joint, but if it is bent it is much much stronger
> ...... .
> 
> .... You are comparing an average boxer to very selective styles of martial art, giving examples of people who train very hard within these selective styles and than saying that others who do not match this training are not true martial artists, I don't think you are on the same page as most people, that is to say most people would consider amuch broader group to be martial artists wich would change the whole average boxer vs average martial artist thing. ....
> 
> ......If you make the statement that not all people who take lessons in a martial art are martial artists, than it is only fare to assume not all people who go to a boxing gym are boxers, with that statement I can put all kinds of qualifiers on who is and who isn't a boxer and change the situation to favor the boxers, however that isn't truely a fare argument.
> 
> ...... simply because In my opinion your average student of boxing is better trained for any fighting situation than your average student of martial art because now students include all those soccer moms and their kids and anyone else who steps through the door of any crackpots school, I think this is how most people view the statement, the qualifiers you put on the statement made it "an average boxer could defeat an average fighter from JKD who trains as hard as the given boxer" I would disagree with the previous claim also (I know you only use JKD as an example but for pratical purposes I think the statment illustrates my point). It's all a matter of perspective and wording.. *




1.  Low lead side kick to the shin or knee is used like a jab in JKD.  But It is delivered wth explosive blast. Since you are in JKD. You know this. 

I only use the side kick to shin/knee as an example. There are many more variations , but the principle is the same. 

You are in JKD. I fail to see how you don't get rotten spoiled when coming up to a boxer. It is like a dream match , fixed by Don King in advance.  (Think about it, lead side kick propelled by forward blast as the boxer moves in.   Oh add a feint, pretend to box the boxer by assuming your south paw on guard stance. Bruce Lee would be proud of you  LOL. )

Ok, the only thing I can think of is, if you are trying to box a boxer with the WinChun part of JKD.  Then you are violating the rules of JKD. "Be water, my friend"  lol

2. There are more than one way to attack the knee and shin bone.  Plus, JKD footwork will draw you to attack for the side plane too.   Even if it does not break, he would be limping along.

3. The debate was not started on average vs average. They switched the focus after they realized their previous statement has no legs to stand on ( and then went on personal attack)

They claimed that most boxers will kill most MArtists. That is a reflection of 1 ignorance, 2 self defficiency, especially if you got carried away in some art that mesmerizes "natural body movement" (dancing comes to mind lol) to the neglect of conditioning. Then you pee your pants when you see a boxer who conditions himself daily. 

4. There is no point in arguing about what kind of boxer vs soccer moms.  Why bother?  We all know the answer.

5. I didn't put the qualifier there. The qualifier is inherently there in the begining when they made those statements "most boxers will kill most MArtists".   I was just making the obvious correction that "MOST MArtists" are not just your soccer moms and teen BB. There are a whole group of true MArtists who would have a field day going up against your trained boxers.

If you are a competent MArtists and you don't know how to defeat a boxer, then back to school (new school) and the heavy bag!  lol

Look, if you insist on calling soccermoms your MArtists and then claim that the boxers can beat soccermom the MArtist,  then you are just saying something we already know all along.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Well, you need to define "used correctly".  B/c "in theory" and "ideally", "used correctly" everything works. That may be little more than philosophical value. That is NOT TAKING into consideration of real practical use.
> 
> Ok, now what is the first line of attack in JKD?  Low side kick to the shin or the knee.  Every time the boxer attacks, he makes his lower body within range of a kick before he is in range to throw a punch. (Proper side kick involves you leaning away from the target, rendering your upper body out of the opponent's range. ) That is a built in disadvantage for the boxer.
> 
> Footwork alone is not enough to compensate that as the competent MA has his/her own footwork to counter and manage the strike range too. *


Bruce Lee knew groundfighting and locks, but he never had to depend on those skills because he was a great striker.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> *
> 
> Ok...Ex-World Champion boxer Lester Ellis retired from boxing, then four years later tried his hand at kickboxing...but was the kind of fighter that threw his requisite number of kicks and then did mostly handwork.
> 
> He fought 3 times, knocking the first two out, then fighting current World Champ Steve Douett (giving up 14 years to him!!), losing to a split points decision, that many in the crowd deserved to go to Ellis (i was not one of them....i think Douett deserved the win).
> 
> Steve Douett is a prized thai style MT fighter, who couldn't lay any real power on Ellis for the  entire fight...
> 
> So...is a world champion considered a good enough opponent for a trad boxer to tackle??
> 
> This is AGAIN, not to say western boxing is superior to MT, but that a competent western boxer can compete with and defeat
> competant MT fighters.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Baoquan. *


That is right, boxers can defeat Eastern style martial artists, and Eastern martial artists can defeat boxers.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> That isn't what causes a knock out. The jaw hinge is hammered back to where it is hinged and that point is at the base of the skull. The concussive shockwave is the result that causes a KO.
> 
> Picture this. Put your elbow against your friend. Make a fist then hit the end of the fist. The energy travels to the person you have your elbow against. *


In boxing, the chin or the jaw is one of the best places to hit for a KO.  In JKD, there are numerous diagrams of Bruce Lee hitting people's jaws as in reality, jaws are fragile and if you break it, they really wouldn't continue the fight.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> No worries dude. This guy is talking out of his @ss anyway. I concluded that in my last post and said I was through discussing anything with him because he's so delusional. Not only is he wrong, everyone but him knows it. His cheap shots are kinda funny though because he has no clue what kind of training I have. But I have better things to do than sort it out with some @ss clown like him. I'd beat him hands down with a hangover. I know it. He knows it, and everyone else here knows it. Heck, I'd probably shove his wallet in his @ss after I cleaned it out (I don't fight for free ya know) when I was done for sh*ts and giggles. Then he can run back to his little "Sensei" and have him pull it out so he can fork over some more money to find out why his TKD didn't save him.
> 
> End...of...story.
> *


Ah, McDojo's.  But never underestimate an art if all you have seen is the McDojo styles because where you're from, you don't have a lot of military versions of anything.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Boxing is a great striking art with the hands,  Yet vs a grappler they are takin out, The averge grapple would destroy a boxer since boxers get close. the Judo/Jijutsu guys would move right in for the take down,  This is one reason in ufc fights no boxer is the champ.  Its mostly because when boxers get close , Grapplers get to close and do a take down taking the boxers ablity away,  All depends on the fighters them selfs.  This is one of those of those what ifs.  All depends on the person the training,  Your friend JUDO-KID *


Are you judging fighting and how real fighting works by watching the UFC?  UFC has rules, the ring is relatively soft, there are ropes.  Strikers are limited, they wear gloves, etc.  Real fighting is not the UFC.  The greatest UFC fighters are not the greatest fighters.  The UFC fighters are great street fighters, but they would use very different tactics, as the opponent(s) can use anything they want, and aren't limited to where they can hit and what techniques they can use.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> And why is that?  B/c boxers leave their lower body wide open! *


Sport style, yes.  Not true on all-out versions.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *
> 
> What is wrong with Canada? We have some top level martial artist up here.
> 
> Mike Macdonald K-1 USA winner, Vancouver BC
> Stan peterec 2 time world Kickboxing champion victoria BC
> Tony blauer
> Vlad Vasilev
> Just to name a few off the top of my head
> 
> We have so many japanese and Chinese immigrants in Canada that I doubt we could get away with NOT seeing arts in true form. Hell, My Judo club has an eighth Dan from the Kodokan, you don't see those every day.
> 
> Don't mistake Canada for a backward hickville. We have every bit as diverse as the US but maybe with half the volume.
> 
> Tony *


Canada is as good as the US if not better.

However, even if you see how they train here, go to where the art originated from and you will see how much harder they train.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *In boxing, the chin or the jaw is one of the best places to hit for a KO.  In JKD, there are numerous diagrams of Bruce Lee hitting people's jaws as in reality, jaws are fragile and if you break it, they really wouldn't continue the fight. *



Tell me about it. I'm recovering from a dislocated jaw at the moment. Funny thing is I didn't know it had happened until I took my mouthpiece out. I easily finished the round.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Ah, McDojo's.  But never underestimate an art if all you have seen is the McDojo styles because where you're from, you don't have a lot of military versions of anything. *



I'm not sure if you mean me. I'm training under Vlad Vasiliev. I see plenty of military stuff through him.

But I understand what you mean about McDojo's.


----------



## tmanifold

This thread has been full of misconceptions from the begining. As an example the thought that Canada doesn't have many military style martial arts. This is patently untrue. Systema, Defendo, and Combat Sambo are just some of the styles represented in Canada of a military bent. 

Also most boxers are tougher than most martail artist, because of the training and most of the reasons mentioned above. This has nothing to do with technique or even skill. This has to do with being hit very hard on a regular basis. Most boxer fight, most martial artist don't unless you count the game of tag called point sparring. Yes a martial artist does have techniques available to him that would wreck havoc on a boxer if he was able to use them. However, since most martial artist don't train full contact , most are not used to being punched. This leads to disarray once they are hit.

Now, let me clarify things, as well as a former boxer, kickboxer and shootfighter, I am a martial artist. I have study at least two styles of karate, as well as judo, aikido and various other self defence oriented styles of combat. I agree with KennethKu on his strategy and believe some one who has trained full contact would be able to take advantage of a boxers obvious technical gaps.  This post is remenicent of the old black belt articles, Muay thai vs. Aikido. They were useless articles and this is a useless debate. Except in this, learning the diffences allows you to shore up the weak spots in your training. No more no less.

Tony


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *This thread has been full of misconceptions from the begining. As an example the thought that Canada doesn't have many military style martial arts. This is patently untrue. Systema, Defendo, and Combat Sambo are just some of the styles represented in Canada of a military bent.
> 
> Also most boxers are tougher than most martail artist, because of the training and most of the reasons mentioned above. This has nothing to do with technique or even skill. This has to do with being hit very hard on a regular basis. Most boxer fight, most martial artist don't unless you count the game of tag called point sparring. Yes a martial artist does have techniques available to him that would wreck havoc on a boxer if he was able to use them. However, since most martial artist don't train full contact , most are not used to being punched. This leads to disarray once they are hit.
> 
> Now, let me clarify things, as well as a former boxer, kickboxer and shootfighter, I am a martial artist. I have study at least two styles of karate, as well as judo, aikido and various other self defence oriented styles of combat. I agree with KennethKu on his strategy and believe some one who has trained full contact would be able to take advantage of a boxers obvious technical gaps.  This post is remenicent of the old black belt articles, Muay thai vs. Aikido. They were useless articles and this is a useless debate. Except in this, learning the diffences allows you to shore up the weak spots in your training. No more no less.
> 
> Tony *


I partly agree.  But have you seen how martial artists in Asia train?  Not for tournament sparring, not for world competition sparring, but full-contact, no holds barred, no decision, winner is the one who KO's the other guy or the guy submits.  They train just as hard as the best boxers if not harder.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> I'm not sure if you mean me. I'm training under Vlad Vasiliev. I see plenty of military stuff through him.
> 
> But I understand what you mean about McDojo's. *


Nope, wasn't talking about you.  Rather your description on how "martial artists" train.


----------



## MartialArtist

When I was in Asia, training was like this...  Well, this is different for the advanced people, the beginners would focus 20% on technique.

10% Technique
30% Mental Endurance (Meditating in the snow, mind control, empty-mindedness, numerous pushups, etc.)
10% Drills - Breaking, combo drills, tactic drills, footwork, adaptation, technical practicality and real-life simulations, punching drills, rolling drills, etc.)
50% Conditioning - Full Contact sparring, running up a mountain with a 30-40 degree incline with a log, jogging, sprinting, speed training, power training, more full contact sparring...

The culture accepts corporal punishment more so you can also think how that would feel.

That is just one day, the percentages may differ but conditioning always comes out on top.  Oh yeah, and split that with 6-7 hours.  One of the things I am glad I went through, but will never go through again.

And I wouldn't say most martial artists don't train hard.  Maybe in your experience, and is pretty much my experience in both West and East as they're getting more commercialized by the second, but you'll be surprised how many train all out, how dedicated they are, and how much full-contact sparring they do.


----------



## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> I partly agree.  But have you seen how martial artists in Asia train?  Not for tournament sparring, not for world competition sparring, but full-contact, no holds barred, no decision, winner is the one who KO's the other guy or the guy submits.  They train just as hard as the best boxers if not harder. *



That was my point. If martial artist trained like boxers then they would be more effective. But for the most part at least in western society, they don't



> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> When I was in Asia, training was like this... Well, this is different for the advanced people, the beginners would focus 20% on technique.
> 
> 10% Technique
> 30% Mental Endurance (Meditating in the snow, mind control, empty-mindedness, numerous pushups, etc.)
> 10% Drills - Breaking, combo drills, tactic drills, footwork, adaptation, technical practicality and real-life simulations, punching drills, rolling drills, etc.)
> 50% Conditioning - Full Contact sparring, running up a mountain with a 30-40 degree incline with a log, jogging, sprinting, speed training, power training, more full contact sparring...
> 
> The culture accepts corporal punishment more so you can also think how that would feel.
> 
> That is just one day, the percentages may differ but conditioning always comes out on top. Oh yeah, and split that with 6-7 hours. One of the things I am glad I went through, but will never go through again.
> 
> And I wouldn't say most martial artists don't train hard. Maybe in your experience, and is pretty much my experience in both West and East as they're getting more commercialized by the second, but you'll be surprised how many train all out, how dedicated they are, and how much full-contact sparring they do.
> *



That type of atmosphere is what I have thought make soldiers such good fighters, especially the infantry and its cousins.  Not any special technique just  brutal training that stresses mind over matter and fighting through the pain. So I agree with you that that training is at least comparable to a boxers, which would give the edge to the Martist.

Tony


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *
> 
> That type of atmosphere is what I have thought make soldiers such good fighters, especially the infantry and its cousins.  Not any special technique just  brutal training that stresses mind over matter and fighting through the pain. So I agree with you that that training is at least comparable to a boxers, which would give the edge to the Martist.
> 
> Tony *


Haha, I wish that was what I still did.  That was around my prime.  I don't think I could do that anymore.  Yes, many people DO DIE from training like that, much more than American football.

You can look at it in the other spectrum.  There are boxers who just train for sport.  Or the people who train 1 hour a day, 3 times a week at the YMCA thinking they're monsters.


----------



## sweeper

Gou I did go to their page, their diagrams were flawed though so instead I brought the argument to you 



> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 1.  Low lead side kick to the shin or knee is used like a jab in JKD.  But It is delivered wth explosive blast. Since you are in JKD. You know this.
> 
> I only use the side kick to shin/knee as an example. There are many more variations , but the principle is the same.
> 
> You are in JKD. I fail to see how you don't get rotten spoiled when coming up to a boxer. It is like a dream match , fixed by Don King in advance.  (Think about it, lead side kick propelled by forward blast as the boxer moves in.   Oh add a feint, pretend to box the boxer by assuming your south paw on guard stance. Bruce Lee would be proud of you  LOL. )
> 
> Ok, the only thing I can think of is, if you are trying to box a boxer with the WinChun part of JKD.  Then you are violating the rules of JKD. "Be water, my friend"  lol
> 
> 2. There are more than one way to attack the knee and shin bone.  Plus, JKD footwork will draw you to attack for the side plane too.   Even if it does not break, he would be limping along.
> 
> 3. The debate was not started on average vs average. They switched the focus after they realized their previous statement has no legs to stand on ( and then went on personal attack)
> 
> They claimed that most boxers will kill most MArtists. That is a reflection of 1 ignorance, 2 self defficiency, especially if you got carried away in some art that mesmerizes "natural body movement" (dancing comes to mind lol) to the neglect of conditioning. Then you pee your pants when you see a boxer who conditions himself daily.
> 
> 4. There is no point in arguing about what kind of boxer vs soccer moms.  Why bother?  We all know the answer.
> 
> 5. I didn't put the qualifier there. The qualifier is inherently there in the begining when they made those statements "most boxers will kill most MArtists".   I was just making the obvious correction that "MOST MArtists" are not just your soccer moms and teen BB. There are a whole group of true MArtists who would have a field day going up against your trained boxers.
> 
> If you are a competent MArtists and you don't know how to defeat a boxer, then back to school (new school) and the heavy bag!  lol
> 
> Look, if you insist on calling soccermoms your MArtists and then claim that the boxers can beat soccermom the MArtist,  then you are just saying something we already know all along.  *



1. All I was saying was just as the boxing jab misses it's target some times, the lead sidekick misses also or at leaste fails to deliver 100% of it's potential. As to the injury to the shin, if it isn't fractured nothing's gona happen, seriously, I have known people who had fractured shins in soccer from a kick and conntinued to play (finding out latter they were fractured) unless you cause serious dammage all it will do is cause pain, and in my experience pain doesn't distract everyone. It also would make them respect the power of your lead leg (kinda like establishing a strong jab in boxing). all the techniques work the same way, anything can miss and it isn't like the boxer is gona assume you are gona box them, they will be aware of your ability. But I think it's nessisaray to point out that JKD fighters make up a relativly small percentage of martial artists.

As to me fighting a boxer? I have had it go both ways, some are just like how you make them out to be, realy weak fighters that can't do anything outside of their rule set, a battery of low kicks will control them and they never see the slip-sidekick to ribs..  but others know how to deal with low kicks, they can avoid most and shift their weight to reduce your power or use footwork to close in, those guys are harder to fight, you either just keep pushing them away with thrust kicks or you take em down, my point is not all boxing gyms are the same.

2: "Even if it does not break, he would be limping along." No one has ever made me limp from kciking my shin, never in my life has this happened, in my experience it's either broken and you know it's broken so you arne't even gona try to stand, or you can run on it no problem. the only way I could see someone limping on it is if they had alot of repeated minor fractures, might feal kinda like shin splints of somthing.

3: Most vs Most in my opinion comes out to average vs average  as well as best vs best and weakest vs weakest, I think this is where the whole argument is rooted, you are seeing the statement as most boxers (any of a broad group) would kill most martial artists (any of a broad group) so say a weak boxer could take a strong martial artist. I tihnk it was intended to mean if you were to take a broad range of martial artists and a broad range of boxers and matched them by relative ability, the boxers would win the majority of the fights. however, even in the previous example, considering the way martial arts are handled here in the US (can't realy speak for a world scale though) I think the martial artists that you speak of, people who train cardio and go full contact are in the minority to the extreem.

5: no you did put that qualifier there "when you are talking about the hobbyists MA folks, they are NOT real martial artists" that's the qualifier that changes everything. The vast majority of schools are mcdojos, that's why we call them that, cause there is on on every corner, look in a phone book and give me the ratio of TKD schols - JKD schools you find, look in the phonebook for a large city (if you don't live in one) also. I think most martial artists aren't that good because most martialartists practice at schools that aren't that good, is that to say most that you know? or most ina  given style? well no it isn't, just most in genneral. I think you over estimate how most people practice here in the US. there are deffenatly ALOT of good martial artists, great martial artists even, but they don't make up the majority.

Another point I might add, what prevents a boxer from knowing how to kick? I suppose the same thing that would prevent a martial artists from boxing??


----------



## KennethKu

Sweeper

This is getting repetitive, as all my counter argument has already been presented in previous posts. I am not interested in repeating them again.

I just like to point out that, NOT just JKD knows how to kick low.  I use JKD as example b/c  we are both familiar with it. The TKD people know what the high kicks are for and they are fully aware of low kicks, and are even better at delivering low kicks.  And there is a wide spread misconception of the speed and power of TKD /KT/JKD practitioners.

As for the shin bone, it seems like you simply base your comment on your own personal experience.  You must not have been hit in the shin bone heavy enough


----------



## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Sweeper
> 
> This is getting repetitive, as all my counter argument has already been presented in previous posts. I am not interested in repeating them again.
> 
> I just like to point out that, NOT just JKD knows how to kick low.  I use JKD as example b/c  we are both familiar with it. The TKD people know what the high kicks are for and they are fully aware of low kicks, and are even better at delivering low kicks.  And there is a wide spread misconception of the speed and power of TKD /KT/JKD practitioners.
> 
> As for the shin bone, it seems like you simply base your comment on your own personal experience.  You must not have been hit in the shin bone heavy enough  *



You seem to think that people don't have the experience that you do. When people refute your arguments you either change your definitions "No, I meant most serious martial artist, who train full contact, not Soccer moms." or you belittle others experiences, as in the above quote. I have a question. Has anyone ever broken your shin? Have you broken anyone elses? I personally have never seen a shin broken in my life. That includes in all my experience with Thai kick boxing where full force shin on shin kicks are normal. I am sure it happens but if it was easy I probably wouls have seen it.

Also, I find it curious that you lump, TKd, JKd and Kt(Kung Tao?) together. They are very different. Also to my knowledge, the lowline shin kick of JKD is a stop hit, similar to a stiff jab, not a fight ender. If your argument holds true, though, my knowledge will be wrong. You are argueing ad nauseum, you can't keeping changing the rules and definitions to suit your side of the argument.

Tony


----------



## KennethKu

My point is, contrary to what Sweeper said, you don't need to kick the shin bone into 2 for effect. You read it inaccurately. (NOTE: It is easier to break the knee than to break the shin. No one argues the otherwise)

Sweeper indicated that he has been kicked in the shin before and to no effect at all.  There could be only 2 reasons. 1. He was not kicked hard enough. 2. He has the shin bone of a MT boxer.    Hence my reference to the possibility that he has not been kicked hard enough.  I am sorry if people take that as a redicule. But it was not intended to be one.

A bare foot kick to the shin may or may not do much damage. But with shoes, a forceful kick, determines the outcome of the confrontation.  If you dont believe me, go slam your shin again the cabinet corner or wall corner. 

"the lowline shin kick of JKD is a stop hit"  It can be but it is NOT limited to that.  Totally depends on how much explosive force you put into it.

"..When people refute your arguments you either change your definitions "No, I meant most serious martial artist, who train full contact, not Soccer moms." ..."

PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.  MY position has always being the same.  I have stated clearly that  those MArtists I know of can beat most boxers. Most of them are serious MArtists.  I have never disputed that most boxers can beat soccermoms.  I also stated that is a pointless statement to make. It just seems you all think that most MArtists are like soccermoms. But I happen to know many who are NOT.   Read the posts again then perhads you would not mistaken my position.

"...You seem to think that people don't have the experience that you do..."  Inaccurate. I never presented myself as such. Look, if  you don't know any MArtists that do not suck, and I happen to know of many who are good, hey I am sorry but that is the way things are.  The fact is there are a lot of TKD people who can smash 4-5 boards with a swift kick. Even 6-8 boards are not that uncommon. 

"..I find it curious that you lump, TKDd, JKD and Kt(Kung Tao?)  together..."  KT is for Karate, not Kung Tao (BTW, What is Kung Tao?)    Low  kick is common to all three, not just in JKD.


----------



## sweeper

yeah jkd low kicks come in alot of forms, the lead side kick can either be a snappy jab with little body in it, a stop hit, or a power shot (like a mid body side kick) or any combination.

I have seen someone's shin break, not in MA class, on a soccer field, the cleats went through the guard and broke his tibia, I don't know if his fibula broke, he didn't get up. I have had all kinds of leg injuries but I realy don't know if I ever had a fracture because I have never had any part of my body except my head xrayed, but I do know people who played soccer on a fractured shin, the just thought they had a realy bad bruis, as for kicking hard enough, unless you crack the bone to the point that its structural integraty is in question when weight is put on it, you anre't gona take them out of a fight. And yes I know this is repeated info, but I don't realy know how else to put it, I have played soccer with people (ok one person) who was playing on a cracked shin, I myself have never gone to the hospital for such an injury, so I would say I have never been kicked hard enough, but unless someone broke my shin I don't see how that would be hard enough...

As to brekaing the shin, to break the shin your opponant has to have their weight on it, otherwise their foot will move, the only times I know of shins breaking are either dual impact (they are both kicking) or all their weight is on one foot (like running). if you need to break someone's shin I would suggest a side kick with the heal of the foot. As to breaking the knee, you don't break it, it's a joint and depending on it's position it is realy hard to dammage it, if someone keeps their knees straight than yeah you are gona hyper extend it, if someone has their knee bent a little and twists their leg a little side to side, you will just buckle it.

KennethKu breaking boards doesn't realy mean much beacause wood and bone are two very dissimular substances, in addition you rarely will kick a target that is imobile (pinned against the ground or a wall for example, and in any other situation the closest comparison would be a break out of the air.

as to the statement you made of most martial artists you know..  Well that has no bearing on gous statement, most of the martial artists I know practice JKD, does that mean most of the martial artists in the world practice JKD? obviously not. no one ever said that the people you know and are talking about can't take a boxer, we don't know them so it isn't even an issue, your personal freinds have no bearing on the statement in question though.

As to the TKD fighters kicking low? most TKD practitioners do not practice kicking low, don't know much about karate but from the people I know that used to practice it, I gather that kicking to the shin wasn't as big of a deal as kicking to the knee or the ribs, but I don't even know what style of karate it was, not the greatest example .  My only real point so far has been that not all martial artists are your freinds, or rather your freinds aren't representative of most martial artists.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *
> 
> You seem to think that people don't have the experience that you do. When people refute your arguments you either change your definitions "No, I meant most serious martial artist, who train full contact, not Soccer moms." or you belittle others experiences, as in the above quote. I have a question. Has anyone ever broken your shin? Have you broken anyone elses? I personally have never seen a shin broken in my life. That includes in all my experience with Thai kick boxing where full force shin on shin kicks are normal. I am sure it happens but if it was easy I probably wouls have seen it.
> 
> Also, I find it curious that you lump, TKd, JKd and Kt(Kung Tao?) together. They are very different. Also to my knowledge, the lowline shin kick of JKD is a stop hit, similar to a stiff jab, not a fight ender. If your argument holds true, though, my knowledge will be wrong. You are argueing ad nauseum, you can't keeping changing the rules and definitions to suit your side of the argument.
> 
> Tony *


I don't think he wasn't changing anything.  What he was doing was collaborating to minimize confusion.

I have indeed seen broken shin bones but it is rare.  Most of the time, it was done by beginners who didn't get the technique down and without any conditioning done to the shin.

Lumping TKD, JKD, and KT together?  What are you talking about?  It is perfectly all right to group those martial arts together.  It just seems you are too observant of styles.  There are numerous similiarities between all those arts and can be grouped together, I dunno exactly what your point is by saying you can't group them together.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *
> As to the TKD fighters kicking low? most TKD practitioners do not practice kicking low, don't know much about karate but from the people I know that used to practice it, I gather that kicking to the shin wasn't as big of a deal as kicking to the knee or the ribs, but I don't even know what style of karate it was, not the greatest example .  My only real point so far has been that not all martial artists are your freinds, or rather your freinds aren't representative of most martial artists. *


On the contrary.  Well, I agree partly with your statement.

Most commercial TKD practitioners kick high and don't practice kicking low.

But, most military TKD practitioners kick both high and low.  Reason?  Well, the chances to kick high are rare against a skilled fighter.  When I first started military TKD way back in Seoul, and I mean way back when I was very young, I kicked high and an older person locked my foot and with the other leg, kicked me (not with all his might but enough to hurt) to the back of the knee of the standing leg.  Then he went in for the choke.  So why do we practice high kicks in military TKD?  If you can kick high fast, you can kick even higher lower.  It develops your balance, speed, hip agility, ballistic flexibility, and much more.  But we also do not deny training in low kicking.  There were hundreds of drills we did that dealt specifically with low kicks do don't give me that TKD doesn't teach low kicks.  Even when I sparred later, there were many oppourtunities to use high kicks too, you can't deny their usage.  The opening may be uncommon, but they are there and if you exploit them...  But most of the kicks in military TKD, during sparring or full-resistance simulations, don't go above the hip at all.  Sometimes at the chest, very rarely at the head.


----------



## J-kid

Its because they close the gap and get close to you,  There are three basic ranges of attacks Long range= kick  medium=punchs
close range=grapplers  when boxers fight people they dont stand back a  few feet and let you kick away they go closer to you and punch thats the idea behind boxing.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *Its because they close the gap and get close to you,  There are three basic ranges of attacks Long range= kick  medium=punchs
> close range=grapplers  when boxers fight people they dont stand back a  few feet and let you kick away they go closer to you and punch thats the idea behind boxing. *


Yep, that's exactly the idea.  A long-range fighter would try to get away, the in-fighter would try to get in, and if they both use good footwork, you'll end up in all different types of ranges, including both of their "comfort" zones.


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## KennethKu

Sweeper, you don't need to break your shin into 2 to be put out of action!.   Go bang your shin on the cabinet corner or the wall corner as hard as you can. According to you, since your shin is not held in place at both ends like a breaking board, then you don't have to worry about  breaking it. AND you don't think the pain would bother anyone.  So, prove it.  But  report back here that the pain does not bother you at all.  

Every one else is welcome to try this on your own. LOL

As for other points, they are just repeating the old stuff that has already been addressed.  I am not going to repeat myself over and over again.


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *My point is, contrary to what Sweeper said, you don't need to kick the shin bone into 2 for effect. You read it inaccurately. (NOTE: It is easier to break the knee than to break the shin. No one argues the otherwise)
> 
> Sweeper indicated that he has been kicked in the shin before and to no effect at all.  There could be only 2 reasons. 1. He was not kicked hard enough. 2. He has the shin bone of a MT boxer.    Hence my reference to the possibility that he has not been kicked hard enough.  I am sorry if people take that as a redicule. But it was not intended to be one.
> 
> A bare foot kick to the shin may or may not do much damage. But with shoes, a forceful kick, determines the outcome of the confrontation.  If you dont believe me, go slam your shin again the cabinet corner or wall corner.
> 
> "the lowline shin kick of JKD is a stop hit"  It can be but it is NOT limited to that.  Totally depends on how much explosive force you put into it.
> 
> "..When people refute your arguments you either change your definitions "No, I meant most serious martial artist, who train full contact, not Soccer moms." ..."
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.  MY position has always being the same.  I have stated clearly that  those MArtists I know of can beat most boxers. Most of them are serious MArtists.  I have never disputed that most boxers can beat soccermoms.  I also stated that is a pointless statement to make. It just seems you all think that most MArtists are like soccermoms. But I happen to know many who are NOT.   Read the posts again then perhads you would not mistaken my position.
> 
> "...You seem to think that people don't have the experience that you do..."  Inaccurate. I never presented myself as such. Look, if  you don't know any MArtists that do not suck, and I happen to know of many who are good, hey I am sorry but that is the way things are.  The fact is there are a lot of TKD people who can smash 4-5 boards with a swift kick. Even 6-8 boards are not that uncommon.
> 
> "..I find it curious that you lump, TKDd, JKD and Kt(Kung Tao?)  together..."  KT is for Karate, not Kung Tao (BTW, What is Kung Tao?)    Low  kick is common to all three, not just in JKD. *



To make sure I don't "put words in your mouth" I will qoute directly. 
"It just seems you all think that most MArtists are like soccermoms" Yes I do. Maybe not actually soccer moms but people who train in similar fashion. Most as in statisically more than any other groups.

"Look, if  you don't know any MArtists that do not suck, and I happen to know of many who are good, hey I am sorry but that is the way things are." This I what I mean't when I said you think others do not have the experiences you do. FYI know a lot of good martial artist, in fact I have trained with some of the best in the world. And I still have the opinions I do. Now some of these guys would beat even world class boxers but these guys are elite martial artist. We are not talking about them we are talking average.
"I find it curious that you lump, TKDd, JKD and Kt(Kung Tao?)  together..."  KT is for Karate, not Kung Tao (BTW, What is Kung Tao?)    Low  kick is common to all three, not just in JKD" OKay i understand now. I just think the differences are huge but yes the low kick is common to all three. 

FYI Kung Tao is a filipino or indonesion version of kung fu. Really good stuff. I think T.A.C.S.A.F.E. posted some videos in the library.

Tony


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *To make sure I don't "put words in your mouth" I will qoute directly. *



Why bother man? The guy is a wack job. He has no clue what you say and can't even understand rudimentary arguments and simply hears what he wants to hear. He didn't understand my argument at all when the rest of you did and still continues to use an incorrect analogy because of it. There is no point in arguing with this sack of doorknobs because he's not going to change his mind or accept reality. I'd let it go. Everyone knows the truth. Let him live in his fantasy world.


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## KennethKu

Gouronin

I respect the MOD's instruction and ignored your repeated crap. Why don't you  STFU?  You are sored b/c you have accidentally revealed your shallow shell.  You behavior is truly unbecoming of a martial artist.  That is pathetic.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Gouronin
> I respect the MOD's instruction and ignored your repeated crap. Why don't you  STFU?  You are sored b/c you have accidentally revealed your shallow shell.  You behavior is truly unbecoming of a martial artist.  That is pathetic. *



No, you're pathetic. I'm gonna say this really slow because you're kinda stupid and you didn't grasp my last post soccer moms and you keep on about it. 

No, wait, I'll put up my argument again. This time more simple. Just because hopefully you'll grasp it.

Casual martial artists vs Casual boxer = Boxer
Average martial artist vs average boxer = Boxer
Pro Martial artists vs Pro boxer = Bocer most of the time.

My behavior by the way is proably more of a martial artist than your pathetic Budo wannabe image. Your belief that if you tell someone something long enough, despite it being wrong, that they will believe you is exactly what creates cults in the Martial arts.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *......"Look, if  you don't know any MArtists that do not suck, and I happen to know of many who are good, hey I am sorry but that is the way things are." This I what I mean't when I said you think others do not have the experiences you do. FYI know a lot of good martial artist, in fact I have trained with some of the best in the world. And I still have the opinions I do. Now some of these guys would beat even world class boxers but these guys are elite martial artist. We are not talking about them we are talking average..... *




Look, all along You made it sound like none of you know any martial artists who could beat boxers. YES , in that outrageous case, it would seem like I knew something you didn't.  I knew all along that could not be the case, but you people keep arguing back the same thing. I am glad you come out and state that there are elite martial artists who have no problem going up against boxers.   (Except for Gouronin, who blindly  mistaken that a boxer would beat a Karateka at every level  Then again his RMA instructor claimed to be able to identify color by just touching it  )

Ok, we are arguing semantics here. "Most" include the elite, the average and those who suck. "Average" is just that , "average"

Way in the begining, I have posted clearly that most boxers can beat soccermoms. Soccermoms don't give a rat ***, as soccermoms are not interested in boxing a boxer. So who cares?  Most boxers could not beat most MArtists as "most MArtists" include a group of elite martial artists who would have a field day going up against a boxer out side of the ring.  

Basically we are not that far apart in our views.


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## KennethKu

Guoronin,

You are just royally sored that most TKD/KT/JKD know how to defeat a boxer but you don't.  So much for emphasis on "natural body movement that does not need conditioning".  Speaking of which, Krav Maga is much more efficient than Systema.   Another shocking truth.  lmao.


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## tmanifold

Kennethku

Dude,  You have no idea what your talking about, again. Most does not include the elite. The elite martial artists are elite because they are above average. Lets put it this way:

We discount boxercise type people just as we dicount tae-bo or Karatetics type stuff.

Almost everyone who boxs spars full contact. Maybe they don't compete but the spar full contact. I would argue that less than 50% of martial artists spar full contact. That is the difference. That is why black belts in TKD or karate will step in the ring with a run of the mill kick boxer and lose. They get hit hard and turn there back, hence they get worked. This is natural, and it happens time and time again. This has nothing to do with technique, it is the fact that they are not used to be hit. Many martial artist, whose sole purpose in the MA's is self preservation, learn to take a punch.

However, these types are in the minority. If you include Kickboxers with boxers, then martial artist that do this are even farther in the minority.  (What everyone has agreed to is that this minority has the edge over most boxers. At the elite of the elite level I think boxer, martist, what ever is less important because these are elite athlete who don't quite follow the same rules you and I do. For example, I would put money on roy jones jr. vs almost any one, he is just that talented.)
Where you are wrong KennethKu, is that you seem to consider the minority as the majority. Either that or you seem to believe you do not need to be able to take a punch to be effective in combat.  If you think the latter, you are sorely mistaken and I hope you don't find out the hard way.

As for Gouronin's teacher, I have the greatest respect for Vlad and anyone dumb enough to pick a fight with that man is in for a world of hurt. Anyone who knows anything of the spetnaz know they are a TOUGH bunch of soldiers. One of Vlad's main teaching point is in how to take a punch and fight on. This is a very important point in combat.


Tony


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## KennethKu

Please Don't put words in my mouth. Please Don't assume what I think. Please don't hijack Muay Thai into western boxing.  The Thais would never accept that.  Just reread my previous posts. I have repeated my points over and over again. And you keep running in circle.  If you define "most" as "average" and purposefully leave out those who know and can defeat boxers, then this has truly been a tremenduous waste of time.

There are a lot more of TKD/KT/JKD people who can kick the crap out of most boxers then you imagine.  If you didn't learn how to do that in your 2 different styles of KT, that is too fvcking bad    I suggest you sue for a refund, dude. lol 

Martial Artist made a good explaination using the concept of Military version of Martial Art vs the McDojo type martial art.   With regards to that, if you include MArtists from Asia, MOST MARTIAL ARTISTS there can easily dispatch your western boxers.  


As for Vlad, the claim of identifying color by touch, it is in his website.

http://russianmartialart.org/fightman.html 

toward the end of the article.

As for Krav Maga, it is also bornt and baptised in real blood and fire.  It is more efficient then Systema due to it economy of motion, same concept as in JKD. The more efficent an method is, the less likely screw up occurs.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *Dude,  You have no idea what your talking about, again.*



This isn't a surprise. He's just one of those guys who's been fed a line by his _sensei_ so many times that he believes it now. He believes TKD is an effective self-defense. He's a schmuck plain and simple. Hell, he even believes that hype about Krav Maga. Although he has no clue to the differences in the USA and Europe regarding it. The guy is full of cr@p and hopes that by yelling loud enough people will have to believe his cr@pola. He's a wannabe. I told you that you're wasting your time debating him. The best thing to do with jerks like this is point out how they are wrong. People will see it. It's not hard to see through his _emperor's new clothes._


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## Baoquan

Agreed. I gave up on attempting reason with this guy about 150 posts ago. 

We have an expression in Australia for guys like him. Its starts with a "W" and rhymes with "anchor".


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## KennethKu

Put a sock in it, it is getting old, Guo. Like the mod said, you can't make your point w/o personal insult, then it must be b/c your point is worthless.  lol   You are just sored that all your Stalin folk dance  is no match for the average TKD BB lol.  As for against armed attack, Krav Maga beats you hands down and you couldn't even figure out why and how so.  Nor could you figure out how to  increase the effectiveness of Krav Maga by a factor of 10!   Dude, sign up for real martial art lessons , lol.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Baoquan _
> 
> *Agreed. I gave up on attempting reason with this guy about 150 posts ago.
> 
> We have an expression in Australia for guys like him. Its starts with a "W" and rhymes with "anchor". *



Name calling does not change the fact that your knowledge about MA is totally contaminated by your shallow experience with McDojo.


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## tshadowchaser

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

tshadowchaser
-MT Moderator-


    Gentelmen  Keep it polite please   and   watch the words you use this is a family forum.


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> Name calling does not change the fact that your knowledge about MA is totally contaminated by your shallow experience with McDojo. *



Mcdojo, hrm?  I don't know about that. I am pretty sure that I have never been to a MCdojo except for a free class or two and I don't know that these other people have either.  I did not put words in your mouth and Never have. I simply stated the facts and wondered if you believe full contact sparring is not necassary for a combat oriented person. The fact is most martial artists don't train full contact. Most if not all boxers do, and I do lump kick boxers in with boxers(not Muay Thai, just WKA kick boxing, leg kicks, plus regular kickboxing,) because they train the same way.  

Here is where I differ from a lot of people. I think that people in traditional martial arts, when they train full contact, should stick to their art. Instead of an attempt at kickboxing. This I think would transfer the average martial artist training ahead of your average boxer. In my experience when you see a Karateka start sparring he starts to bounce around like a boxer, he hold his hands like a boxer he even punches like one. Gone are the low stances, the blocks, or the proper karate hand techniques. 

The Mcdojo word is thrown around alot, especially when people don't even know what dojo they are talking about. In particular I would not consider Vlad as a leader of a Mcdojo. He has more combat experience than most people on this board, I'll wager.
Don't confuse his belief in Psychic phenomena (an area the russians spent a lot of time and money on) with his experience in combat and knowledge of self preservation.

Tony


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## sweeper

KennethKu gou may not be able to refrain from throwing personal insults, but look into the past thred and tell me who first slured the name of another style.

Are you doing any better than he is?

And also re-read my posts, you will notice that each new post I have added new points or re ordered or ellaborated on old ones to account for a new points made or modifications to old ones. and you still havn't adressed some of mine.

as to your questioning of systema's effectiveness, name one specific conflict where krav maga was implamented against trained fighters..  I can give the name of a ten year battle field where systema was in relativly constant use, AFGANISTAN. We didn't call it "russia's vietnam" for nothing, and in that period there were plenty of times when useing firearms was not an optimal option due to noise..  guess who got those jobs..  Now saying the spetznas in genneral don't know how to fight is like saying the US navy SEALs don't know how to fight, if you have read anything about their history you know it's BS. I think you are just trying to attack people because you are getting attacked. you can deal with it without attacking an entire martial art.

MartialArtist I am well aware that most styles can be applied in a realistic fasion, but when the majority of all martial arts schools in the world are WTF and ITF TKD neither of wich alow kicks to the legs (unless I'm realy miss understanding some people) in their competition sparring, you are gona have a major deficience of leg kicking ability among martial artists, and that's what I'm talking about, not the absolute ability of the best, but the ability of the majority of martial artists, the majority of martial artists do not practice in competition full contact with hits below the waste for continueus rounds.


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## KennethKu

Where did I say Spetsnaz cannot fight? THis is a perfect example of putting words in my mouth.

I say Krav Maga is more efficient. More efficient as in Krav Maga involves a block or a deflection simultaneously with a strike to the head, neck, solar plexus, groin or knee, depending on the targets available. There is no fancy grapping, twisting or throwing your opponent.  Now, your striking power must have knock down capability. 

About those points I passed, Sweeper, no offence but as I have indicated, it is just running in circle , hence I am not going to repeat myself again and again.

Also, I am not going to talk about Gou as he is incapable of making one post w/o being a total jerk. If you want to dig into this, then do a more thorough job and look at his firs response.  As I just said, I am not going to talk about a total loser like that.


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## GouRonin

I don't have to do anything but sit here and let him make a bigger fool out of himself. There is nothing I could do that he isn't doing to himself and the best part is, he's doing in front of everyone.

Christmas came early.

Alrighty!

Next topic!


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## Cthulhu

This thread is now locked.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


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## arnisador

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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