# USA Coach punches Canadian in face after fight at US Open



## mango.man (Feb 20, 2011)

Anyone know who the punk coach in the red jump suit is?  I understand he was removed from the building by Austin PD and the Canadian's may press charges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrA5T67DxPk&feature=player_profilepage


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

Looked like cheap shots all around, though.


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## puunui (Feb 20, 2011)

That is outrageous.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2011)

That was shocking!  I agree that the coach who punched the competitor should have been arrested.


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## Steve (Feb 20, 2011)

I think arrested is a bit of an overreaction.  I'm sure that there are administrative penalties that will be applied, and rightfully so.  But seriously guys.  This is TKD. The punch probably didn't even hurt! 

Just kidding!  Seriously, though, it didn't look like anyone was injured.  He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me.


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## mango.man (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Just kidding!  Seriously, though, it didn't look like anyone was injured.  He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me.



According to one of the people that witnessed it:  "I am not sure if Kael broke his nose but they were definitely shoving gauze up his nose to stop the bleeding."


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 20, 2011)

Yup TKD respect and sport. Gotta love it!


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## d1jinx (Feb 20, 2011)

I can honestly say I do not think I could have controlled myself as well as the Candian coach did if My competitor was attacked by the other coach.

I commend him for his proffessional behavior.  

UNBELIEVABLE.  Both fighters were a bit "uncontrolled" but for a coach to do that.... wow.

Not sure the age brackett, but if they were minors competing, damn right I would say press charges.


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## d1jinx (Feb 20, 2011)

Also, I wonder if he'll make it onto the suspension list.  To date there has only been 1 name added: Sir *Charles **********  *(date of suspension 8/15/10).  And that has yet to be proven from what I know.


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## hal-apino (Feb 20, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think arrested is a bit of an overreaction.  I'm sure that there are administrative penalties that will be applied, and rightfully so.  But seriously guys.  This is TKD. The punch probably didn't even hurt!
> 
> Just kidding!  Seriously, though, it didn't look like anyone was injured.  He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me.



Actually he should be arrested, this is outrageous and the WTF should give him a life time BAN!   Pathetic and disgusting!


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2011)

mango.man said:


> According to one of the people that witnessed it:  "I am not sure if Kael broke his nose but they were definitely shoving gauze up his nose to stop the bleeding."



That seems obvious by the attention Kael is getting to his nose right after the coach punched him.


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## hal-apino (Feb 20, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> Also, I wonder if he'll make it onto the suspension list.  To date there has only been 1 name added: Sir *Charles **********  *(date of suspension 8/15/10).  And that has yet to be proven from what I know.



His trial starts next month, but your right he has not been convicted!  Funny Jean Lopez, is not on the suspension list because "he was not convicted " for family domestic violence on his wife!  Dring did not make the suspension list either and I do believe he was charged and convicted for harassment and has a restraining order on him by a female athlete!  

Can you leave the country if your under indictment?


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## terryl965 (Feb 20, 2011)

Well we saw the whole thing, the coach in question was put in handcuffs and taken to the police station. The competitors nose was split and broken, this was the most discusting event I have ever personally witness it was a total cheap shot. My son Zachary was one of the people giving the accounts to the police. I can truely say if the USAT does not permently do someting withen a few days I would be shocked.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 21, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think arrested is a bit of an overreaction.  I'm sure that there are administrative penalties that will be applied, and rightfully so.  But seriously guys.  This is TKD. He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me.



I completely disagree.  Yes, this is a combat sport where people are trying to knock each other's blocks off.  But this wasn't within the competition rules and was by a non-combatant.

Would your opinion change if this was a spectator punching a competitor?

The town drunk wandered in after a few beers to watch some fighting, thought that it actually looked like girly kicking not fighting and he could take them so he wanders over a punches one of them in the face?

Should he be arrested?

If so, why not the coach who is likely a)sober and b)trained to hit harder/better and - of course - c)should know much much better.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 21, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think arrested is a bit of an overreaction.  I'm sure that there are administrative penalties that will be applied, and rightfully so.  But seriously guys.  This is TKD. The punch probably didn't even hurt!
> 
> Just kidding!  Seriously, though, it didn't look like anyone was injured.  He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me.



It was an assault, compounded by battery.  It appeared to be by an adult on a juvenile as well.  Arrest is not only indicated, prosecution is warranted based on what I saw.

Martial arts competitions are mutual combat by agreement; assault charges don't apply - *to the competitors.*  Having a coach - or anyone not a combatant - charge into the ring and strike a competitor, no mater how hard, is battery.  He should be arrested, charged, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law in my opinion.


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## terryl965 (Feb 21, 2011)

Just to add the coach in question was telling security and the police that he really did not hit him, that his shot missed. I just cannot even understand this, if that was one of my students or even my child that instructor would be alot worst than being in jail for the night.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 21, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Just to add the coach in question was telling security and the police that he really did not hit him, that his shot missed. I just cannot even understand this, if that was one of my students or even my child that instructor would be alot worst than being in jail for the night.



Even if he had missed, it would be assault.  Battery is the hitting part.  Assault is the wind-up.  He still broke the law.  But since it seems the competitor's nose was broken, I'd say that's hogwash anyway.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 21, 2011)

Unless there was someone video taping the match from the opposite side of the ring it may be difficult to prove the coach broke the Canadian's nose since he was kicked in the face at 2:08 and then again at 2:33 (although this kick looks like it hit the cheek area more than the nose). Regardless, as Bill pointed out he broke the law anyway and the Canadian's would be well within their rights to press charges. 

Why any coach is entering the ring for any reason during a match is beyond me.

It looked like emotions were running a bit high during the whole match. The kick at 2:08 was a cheap shot, although you could maybe forgive it as a result of being in the heat of the moment. The one at 2:33 actually looked like a legitimate hit, so I am unsure why the Canadian got so upset about that hit. (Is the no hitting to the face if under a certain age rule still in effect in WTF matches?) But all he did in "retaliation" was try to punch his opponent in the hogu, which is completely within the rules. Looked like there might have been some clinching going on, and the ref was wise to break things up, but the coach's reaction was way out of line.

Pax,

Chris


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## IcemanSK (Feb 21, 2011)

Terry, (or anyone else who was there) do you know how old the victim was in this case?


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## hal-apino (Feb 21, 2011)

I would guess that it was the out of control coach's student who had is nose split, and the reason for his behavior.  That certainly does not give that coach the right to enter the ring and punch a kid without any warning.  You can clearly see the hit connected, as the force almost knocked him down.   What I don't understand is why the fight was given to the Canadian.  It is also clear that he sucker punched the other athlete in the face, breaking his nose.  You can see it was done intentional and was very poor sportsmanship.  The other athlete was not able to continue with the match due to his injury.  Why then did the Canadian win.  The only person with any control was the Canadians coach!    The victim in all of this is the Naughty Coach's student and he should have been the winner of that match. 

Why does the title in this thread say "USA Coach" punches Canadian in face?  Was it a USA Coach?  If not then I do not see Davie as doing anything, actually even if he is I still do not see Davie as doing anything!


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## mango.man (Feb 21, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> Terry, (or anyone else who was there) do you know how old the victim was in this case?



Kael Pinto's facebook page lists that he attends college so my guess is that he is not a minor.

Edit - Actually upon further review, Oakwood Collegiate Institute is actually a high school in Toronto, increasing the likelihood that the victim was a minor.


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2011)

I understand where you're all coming from.  I just don't agree.  In all sorts of sports, people get angry and throw punches.  Unless the injuries are severe or permanent, the sport handles the punishment internally.  Baseball, football, basketball...  punches aren't uncommon and people are fined, suspended or sometimes let go.  Even in hockey the act has to be so egregious  that it causes permanent damage to the victim.

In other words, according to the letter of the law, you guys are right.  While I'm certainly not advocating that the coach get off with a slap on the wrist, any thoughts of arresting him seem to me to be an overreaction.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Feb 21, 2011)

I think fighting is like sex...if it's two 16 year olds, so be it.  If it is a 50 year old and a 16 year old, the police should get involved.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 21, 2011)

The victim is a minor, so it's no longer a "things happen in the heat of the moment" debate. 


On another note, the ref was not in charge of the ring. Too many cheap shots byboth fighters (but blue got more than his share!)

Actually, we should ask the lawyers in the crowd what charges (if any) should be brought here.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 21, 2011)

Does anybody know what state the "US" athlete and coach are from? I've seen a tantrum-throwing coach who wears red warmups at a number of tournaments, and wonder if it's the same person.


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## bluekey88 (Feb 21, 2011)

man, there's a lot of this going around.  I was at a tournament in Januray.  A local tournament..not even a qualifying event or anything.  In one particualr match, this guy was getting owned.  However, in desperation he kept grabbing the leg of the other fighter to slow things down.  He was warned.  He got the 1/2 point and finally the fulld eduction...losing his only point.  When that haooened, his coach stood up, grabbed teh chair he was sitting on and threww it across the ring.  He narrowly missed a couple of young kids sitting near the ring...but he managed to nail the guy who set up the event (and who ghas a lot of pull in the local tkd communty) right in the head putting a nasty gash over his eye.  

What's going on lately?  It just seems emotion s are running higher than usual lately at the events I've attended.  

Peace,
Erik


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2011)

I bet you that coach in the red is one of those that believes that respect is earned and not automatically given.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I bet you that coach in the red is one of those that believes that respect is earned and not automatically given.



Nope... just the opposite, guys with that kind of attitude think that everyone should bow down to them and they can do no wrong, thus he thinks that respect is owed to him.


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## Scott T (Feb 21, 2011)

Wow, it's starting to sound like a junior hockey game!


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## d1jinx (Feb 21, 2011)

If I were center REF....

I would have disqualified them both.  Sorry, and I'm sure there would have been protests, but it looked like the ref yelled break, then Red charged and deliberately punched blue in the face (some say breaking his nose), Disco'd red in my oppinion, then blue coach disco'd blue...

 I would not declare any winner.

David A. or the Ring T.A. would have to come out and over turned it cause I would not have declared a winner.

Hopefully that will never happen when/if I am center.  but the key as center is to take control and not let that crap happen.


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## d1jinx (Feb 21, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> The victim in all of this is the Naughty Coach's student and he should have been the winner of that match. !


 
While I agree with MOST of what you said, Blue by Far was no victim.  He clearly kicked Red in the face after Kalyo which caused Red to come back with a vengence.  Not saying it was right.  But almost every fighter will look to get even after a cheap shot.  

Blue was just as guilty of dirty play as Red was.  Disco both.


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## hal-apino (Feb 22, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> While I agree with MOST of what you said, Blue by Far was no victim.  He clearly kicked Red in the face after Kalyo which caused Red to come back with a vengence.  Not saying it was right.  But almost every fighter will look to get even after a cheap shot.
> 
> Blue was just as guilty of dirty play as Red was.  Disco both.




Your right, after looking at it again Blue did get in several cheap shots.  But taking it from the point where he punched blue in the face, what should the call have been?   Red was never penalized I am guessing from all the commotion.  I could not see what the score was either.  

Does anyone know yet who that coach was?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 22, 2011)

When the coach interferes with the match, coach's fighter forfeits.  That is in the rules of most matches I've read about or participated in.  I'd call punching an opposing fighter 'interference'.  It doesn't matter that the coach's fighter was cheap-shotted or that there was an improper ref call.  Coach interferes, coach's fighter loses.

I have to admit I'm somewhat amazed by the people who think it's OK for the coach to take matters into his own hands and strike a fighter himself during a match.  Wow.  I begin to see why sportsmanship, rules, and honorable competition have begun to decline, not to mention the *basic lack of respect for the law*.  If you get cut off on the highway, ram that fool.  He deserved it; just because the police didn't see it and give him a ticket is no reason for him to get away with it.  Vigilante justice is great - if the cops don't stop the bad guy, you just do it yourself.  That's how we have a just, peaceful, and decent society.

Right.


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## dowan50 (Feb 22, 2011)

mango.man said:


> Anyone know who the punk coach in the red jump suit is?  I understand he was removed from the building by Austin PD and the Canadian's may press charges.
> 
> First yes its a bad thing the coach was a bad boy but here are some good points
> 
> ...


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## miguksaram (Feb 22, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> First yes its a bad thing the coach was a bad boy but here are some good points
> 
> 1.  The quality of the You Tube post was excellent video and audio.
> 2.   Quality of fighting sucked. As usual hands down no wonder the cannot defend the head, bouncing around constant clashing, watching the score looking to finish one point ahead. No wonder people want to watch MMA instead.
> ...



Are you a troll?  No seriously your replies tend to make me think that you are just trying to get a rise out of people.

1) Agreed
2) This is WTF TKD..there are no punches to head allowed.  Do you even know what you are looking at?  MMA have their share of boring clashing bouts too and while.
3) Yes, that never happens in MMA...they are all great sports and upstanding role models, especially the one on TUF.
4) Yes, black belts see everything, they also are able to leap 20 feet straight up in the air from a standstill position, not to mention their bullet proof.

Overall you I can concur with your one point the rest, well honestly just makes you sound like someone who has a lot to learn about martial arts and TKD.


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## msmitht (Feb 22, 2011)

Dunno who coach was but heard from students who were there. He had to pay a fine and is banned from usat events. There will be a wtf ruling as this was a g2 wtf event. Don't know when that will happen. Did not hear about legal issue. I am sure that someone will find out and post info...


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Nope... just the opposite, guys with that kind of attitude think that everyone should bow down to them and they can do no wrong, thus he thinks that respect is owed to him.




Actually I don't believe that he was thinking. I think he was simply reacting. As for him thinking he can do no wrong, that respect is owed to him, that hasn't been my experience. If he had any respect for the referee or the opposing player, he would have remained in his chair and not rushed into the ring. During the match, the referees are automatically given respect, since they run the ring. If the opposing player needed to be disciplined for his behavior during a match, it is the referee's job to do it. Respect is what keeps the coach's butt in the chair, respect for the system of competition, the rules and the officials.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> mango.man said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know who the punk coach in the red jump suit is? I understand he was removed from the building by Austin PD and the Canadian's may press charges.
> ...


Just to clarify, you *are* being sarcastic, are you not?  

Daniel


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## hal-apino (Feb 22, 2011)

msmitht said:


> Dunno who coach was but heard from students who were there. He had to pay a fine and is banned from usat events. There will be a wtf ruling as this was a g2 wtf event. Don't know when that will happen. Did not hear about legal issue. I am sure that someone will find out and post info...


Well then he should be on the suspension list, should be easy enough to find!


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 22, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> mango.man said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone know who the punk coach in the red jump suit is?  I understand he was removed from the building by Austin PD and the Canadian's may press charges.
> ...


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## msmitht (Feb 22, 2011)

The coach in question is in jail. Guess texas was the wrong place to do that...


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## mango.man (Feb 22, 2011)

msmitht said:


> The coach in question is in jail. Guess texas was the wrong place to do that...



As he should be!


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## miguksaram (Feb 23, 2011)

msmitht said:


> The coach in question is in jail. Guess texas was the wrong place to do that...


Texas...where others try to abolish the death penalty they install an express lane for it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 23, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think arrested is a bit of an overreaction. I'm sure that there are administrative penalties that will be applied, and rightfully so. But seriously guys. This is TKD. The punch probably didn't even hurt!
> 
> Just kidding! *Seriously, though, it didn't look like anyone was injured. He should be punished, but arresting the guy seems overboard to me*.


I am curious as to why you would say this.

If I overreact about the treatment of my girlfriend while we're at a restaurant and deliver a bare knuckle close fist strike to the philtrum, I would be arrested. 

Why do you feel that this is any different from a legal perspective? 

Just because the victim is a trained fighter doesn't mean that it is okay for the other guy's coach to assult him.  Besdes, this isn't the WWE, where manager interferrence is part of the show.

Also, after Angel Mattos and the embarrassment that that caused, coaches and players should be trying *not* to repeat such behavior.

Daniel


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## dowan50 (Feb 23, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just to clarify, you *are* being sarcastic, are you not?
> 
> Daniel



Yes of course on both sides of the issue. But not about the quality of fighting. 

Also I did not mean all MMA fighting was good but anyone who understands marketing, money and media coverage and add budgets understands that MMA style fighting has far surpassed TKD with TKD possibly not even on the chart. 

My point was a coach attacking a competitor got more media hits and attention than what should be coverage for a good fight. I was also being more sympathetic with penalties and reprimand for the coach but not criminal charges? was his true thinking intent to cause physical harm or with replay from other angles was it more a spastic move with unanticipated change of position of the competitor? 

One thing I was thinking and did not say is some people who have been involved in contact sports for a long time get a certain mental condition that can evoke a certain involuntary or subconscious speech or motor movement lets call it *Coaching Turrets Syndrome  *all laughing aside they speak or do something that is just purely automatic with out thinking. 

In boxing Coaching outside the ring coaches yell suggestions to their competitor all the time. Our coaches are outside the ring also but are required to not speak or yell but sometimes the heat of the moment violate that rule.


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## dowan50 (Feb 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> dowan50 said:
> 
> 
> > Your 4th point is ridiculous. The fighters in mma are black belts but Im sure someone could sneak up behind them in the middle of a bout and king hit them. They are concentrating on fighting in a major tournament, they shouldnt have to 'keep an eye out' for some loser running up behind the fight to blindside them.
> ...


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## dowan50 (Feb 23, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am curious as to why you would say this.
> 
> If I overreact about the treatment of my girlfriend while we're at a restaurant and deliver a bare knuckle close fist strike to the philtrum, I would be arrested.
> 
> ...



Common Daniel are you really going to equate a man hitting a women bare fisted in public place the same as men getting out of control at a sports event? How about verbal? most domestic violence statutes state if you feel threatened verbally you can file? Isn't the WWE how many times have I watched Korean Masters attacking each other or the judges when they don't agree with the scoring? 

But I would agree that the decision to file assault is a legal right and choice of the person who has been threatened or injured and the offender will just have to life with that.


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> Isn't the WWE how many times have I watched Korean Masters attacking each other or the judges when they don't agree with the scoring?




How many times have you seen this? Was it at a local tournament, national or international event?


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am curious as to why you would say this.
> 
> If I overreact about the treatment of my girlfriend while we're at a restaurant and deliver a bare knuckle close fist strike to the philtrum, I would be arrested.
> 
> ...


I think I explained it more in a later post, Daniel.  This is a sport, and in many sports, tempers flare and people get punched.  Baseball players charge the mound when they're brushed back off the plate.  Hockey players will start a fight just to give the home crowd fans a show if they're losing.  Football players throw punches now and then. 

It's not okay.  But it's not worth prosecution.  Just my opinion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 23, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think I explained it more in a later post, Daniel.  This is a sport, and in many sports, tempers flare and people get punched.  Baseball players charge the mound when they're brushed back off the plate.  Hockey players will start a fight just to give the home crowd fans a show if they're losing.  Football players throw punches now and then.
> 
> It's not okay.  But it's not worth prosecution.  Just my opinion.


I think it could be argued that punches between 'competitors' may be ok, but once spectators, coaches, managers, physios or any other hangers on get involved then its not ok. It would also be hard to police situations where physical assault is illegal UNLESS it happens at a sporting event, then its ok. I dont know how I could explain this line of reasoning to my kids as I bring them up. I can see it now, the police get called because some guy has assaulted another guy, the police arrive and the aggressor says "but officer, we were having a game of backyard cricket at his place so technically I can punch him because we were playing sport and tempers flared". Too much grey area for me, physical assault is physical assault, regardless of where it occurs. You just cant go around hitting people, we arent cavemen anymore.


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## mango.man (Feb 23, 2011)

According to he who shot the video, the USA coach was from Ong's TKD in Florida.

https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=149960695023174&v=wall (Ong's on Facebook)

Ong's Taekwondo - 4848 Sun N. Lake Blvd. - Sebring, FL - Angelito Ong - 863 314 9373 (From USAT Club Membership Page)


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## Steve (Feb 23, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think it could be argued that punches between 'competitors' may be ok, but once spectators, coaches, managers, physios or any other hangers on get involved then its not ok. It would also be hard to police situations where physical assault is illegal UNLESS it happens at a sporting event, then its ok. I dont know how I could explain this line of reasoning to my kids as I bring them up. I can see it now, the police get called because some guy has assaulted another guy, the police arrive and the aggressor says "but officer, we were having a game of backyard cricket at his place so technically I can punch him because we were playing sport and tempers flared". Too much grey area for me, physical assault is physical assault, regardless of where it occurs. You just cant go around hitting people, we arent cavemen anymore.


I wouldn't advocate that behavior.  I don't think it's okay.  I just don't think it's worth putting the guy in jail.  That's all.  

But you're entitled to your opinion.


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> This is a sport, and in many sports, tempers flare and people get punched.  Baseball players charge the mound when they're brushed back off the plate.  Hockey players will start a fight just to give the home crowd fans a show if they're losing.  Football players throw punches now and then.



Taekwondo is different, there is in my opinion a zero tolerance for this sort of thing, unlike in other sports where bench clearing fights are not only accepted, but expected. I don't know if I would go so far as prosecute, but what that coach did was clearly unacceptable and inexcusable. I think it is a basic lack of respect and a lack of self discipline.


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think I explained it more in a later post, Daniel.  This is a sport, and in many sports, tempers flare and people get punched.  Baseball players charge the mound when they're brushed back off the plate.  Hockey players will start a fight just to give the home crowd fans a show if they're losing.  Football players throw punches now and then.
> 
> It's not okay.  But it's not worth prosecution.  Just my opinion.



This wasn't a player, it was a coach.  That's the key difference.   I love hockey, used to play it (badly!!) and am a huge fan of the local teams here in New England.  Fights happen all the time..._between the players._

I have never seen a Bruins game where Julien got out on the ice and started to mix it up with whatever was going on.    I had free tickets to the Manchester Monarchs this season, and never saw Mark Morris getting in to fisticuffs, or Paul Maurice of the Carolina Hurricanes get involved in a brawl.


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## mango.man (Feb 23, 2011)

Here is one interesting comment I have read about the situation.  I don't know if this person was actually there or just saw the video and based their comments on the referee's actions in the last minute or so of the video.

"The aftermath behaviour by the US Taekwondo officials and certain US judges and such was even more of an embarrassment to the sport in my books."

If the coach was arrested and booked, I wonder what else this person wanted done.

And it is not unheard of for coaches to attack in professional sports.  Have we already forgotten about Don Zimmer (Yankees) attacking Pedro Martinez (Red Sox) a few years back.  If so, here is the video 



  Of course the 30 something year old Martinez got the better of the 70 something year old Zimmer, but still it was Zimmer that was initiating the attack.


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## mango.man (Feb 23, 2011)

Just found the video from the other side of the mat (I thought there was to be no video taping on the floor).






Just 10 seconds but clearly shows the Canadian fighter punching the Florida fighter square in the nose (you can even hear it pretty clearly) likely breaking it and then the coach from Ong's comes flying in to deliver his retaliation, which you can also hear quite clearly.


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## dowan50 (Feb 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> How many times have you seen this? Was it at a local tournament, national or international event?



In the last 37 years including fairly recent all of the above and not trying to be judgmental but just pointing out we fall short of the philosophy and I would put Westernization and commercialization to fault but I could be wrong about that since the worst offenders have been Korean born masters/gm so did we contaminate them or is it a myth about perfection or are we all just humans imperfect still no matter we should do our best we can.

Some times the pot calling the kettle black is just to much


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## hal-apino (Feb 24, 2011)

My understanding is that the student is the son of Angelito Ong from  Florida and also is his coach.  He was not coaching him in this match, his brother from Chicago was coaching him from what I have been told.  

I was also told by a Canadian coach that Keal Pinto was disqualified by David Askinas after he tried to have the center Ref do it and she refused.  Must be the reason they have posted Monday's results this morning but still not Sunday!   

I was also told that David told Pinto if he filed charges that the Canadian Team would not be welcomed back to US Open.   They are not to happy and are filing a complaint with WTF on David Askinas.   If the coach is the brother of said coach in Florida he is also an IR, I would hope that the WTF strips his credentials as well as the USAT from coaching.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 24, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> My understanding is that the student is the son of Angelito Ong from Florida and also is his coach. He was not coaching him in this match, his brother from Chicago was coaching him from what I have been told.
> 
> I was also told by a Canadian coach that Keal Pinto was disqualified by David Askinas after he tried to have the center Ref do it and she refused. Must be the reason they have posted Monday's results this morning but still not Sunday!
> 
> I was also told that David told Pinto if he filed charges that the Canadian Team would not be welcomed back to US Open. They are not to happy and are filing a complaint with WTF on David Askinas. If the coach is the brother of said coach in Florida he is also an IR, I would hope that the WTF strips his credentials as well as the USAT from coaching.


 
Time to get a bowl of popcorn; if any of this is right, we'll be reading about it for a while.

It doesn't make sense to me that the CEO would be in the role of disqualifying or even the due process. Do we really have a process that lets an uncertified official overrule a ring ref with no one else in between like a tournament director? The comment related to the Canadian team doesn't make sense to me either. Any victim of an assault/battery has the right to file a complaint, and I believe it's a crime to attempt to coerce someone to do otherwise.  Is the Canadian coach someone with firsthand knowledge? Not questioning your integrity "Hal", but it would be good to know the sources on this. I wonder if the opposite side view video is a factor. What's the rest of the story?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 24, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> Common Daniel are you really going to equate a man hitting a women bare fisted in public place the same as men getting out of control at a sports event?


From a legal standpoint, it isn't. Laws regarding assault are not suspended at sporting events. The coach was not a participant and struck the victim with a bare knuckle punch, did he not? Legally, it is the same. That was clear and easily understood in my post. 

Also, I meant to equate it to striking the waiter over poor treatment of a lady friend, though I looked at my post and I see that I forgot to say "to the waiter" after the attack description. My bad.



dowan50 said:


> How about verbal? most domestic violence statutes state if you feel threatened verbally you can file?


Check the laws in your state.



dowan50 said:


> Isn't the WWE how many times have I watched Korean Masters attacking each other or the judges when they don't agree with the scoring?


If I must explain the WWE reference, the WWE is a sport entertainment format where managers attacking participants is part of the show, and thus acceptable. Charges are not filed because the managers attacking participants is all scripted, and thus is not an assault.

A taekwondo tournament does not have scripted 'coaching interferrence' and thus a coach attacking a player is considered a violent attack and thus charges may be filed. 



dowan50 said:


> But I would agree that the decision to file assault is a legal right and choice of the person who has been threatened or injured and the offender will just have to life with that.


That is the short version of what I said.  In this case, the victim has the law on his side.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 24, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I think I explained it more in a later post, Daniel. This is a sport, and in many sports, tempers flare and people get punched. Baseball players charge the mound when they're brushed back off the plate. Hockey players will start a fight just to give the home crowd fans a show if they're losing. Football players throw punches now and then.
> 
> It's not okay. But it's not worth prosecution. Just my opinion.


A *lot* of things aren't worth prosecution.

But you could make the same argument about people getting upset in a traffic altercation and attacking the other driver.  

When my brand new car was totalled in 2008 by another driver who ran a red light, I was rather angry.  

Now, I _could_ have allowed my temper to flair and then have proceeded to assault the offending (and at that point, seemingly uninjured) driver.

But I didn't.  I saw that the other driver was out of his car and not serioudly injured, called the police and reported an accident then called a friend to get a ride back to work then let the insurrance companies fight it out.  

We all walked away from the accident, nobody went to the hospital and nobody went to jail.  

Daniel


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> A *lot* of things aren't worth prosecution.
> 
> But you could make the same argument about people getting upset in a traffic altercation and attacking the other driver.



Just so that I'm very clear, my _opinion_ is that, based on what I saw in this video, prosecution seems a little overboard in this circumstance.  I was also not there, and certainly don't have all of the information.  

I agree that many things aren't worth prosecution.  IMO, this is one of them.  I also agree that the same argument could be made in many different situations, in some cases appropriately so. 

For example, if you work for me and steal $500 worth of product, my concern overall is to fire you and get my money back.  Were you to agree to pay restitution, and barring any other extenuating circumstances, I probably wouldn't prosecute.  Just another example of a time when a person clearly broke a law, but in my opinion, prosecution would be expensive and unnecessary.  

You, however, have a different opinion, and I respect that.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 24, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> You, however, have a different opinion, and I respect that.


Not so much different as I was curious as to your rationale.  

I think that a heavy fine and a lifetime ban would be in order and probably more of a penalty than jail.  

But, given that we all know that assaulting someone *can* land you in jail, and given that taekwondo still gets bad press regarding Angel Mattos, he has to take whatever comes his way.  

Daniel


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 24, 2011)

I just remembered something that happened to me a long time ago.

I was a young boy, a newspaper carrier for the Pekin Daily Times in Pekin, IL.  I had just picked up my newspaper when I was approached by a long-haired 'hippy' type guy who came out of the local McGovern campaign office.  He offered me a dime and asked for a newspaper.  I explained to him that I only had enough papers for my route, and I could not sell him one.  He threw the dime at me and took a paper out of my bicycle paper bag.

Being the same then as I am now, I went into the McGovern campaign office and demanded the paper back.  He wadded it up and threw it at me.  When I bent over to pick it up, he kicked me; hard.  So hard that I flew off the loading dock where I was standing and landed hard on my face.  I was crying and bleeding and embarrassed.  He was a young adult, I was maybe 10?

I finished my newspaper route and went home.  When my dad asked me what happened to my face, I told him.  He took me down to the police department and demanded that the McGovern campaign worker be arrested.  The police went and arrested him and brought him back to the police station.

I was taken into a line up and asked to pick him out.  I was scared and the 'hippy' guys they had all looked alike to me.  I kept thinking that if I chose wrong, an innocent guy would be arrested and charged.  So I said I didn't know.  The police told my dad that they could not do anything since the guy who kicked me denied it and I did not positively identify him.

My dad was furious and told the police that he'd take care of the problem himself once the guy was released.  The police told him why wait, take care of it now.  They let him into the holding cell with the hippy.

When my dad came out, he was panting and sweating and his knuckles were bleeding and his shirt was torn.  The guy was laying on the floor, not moving, but moaning.  There was blood on the walls and the cops were laughing and saying 'better get a hose in here!'

We went home and that was the end of it.

Now, frankly, I am not in favor of vigilante justice, as I've said before.  I understand exactly how my dad felt that day, though.  I'm sorry I wasn't able to identify the guy in the line up, because that would have been the better way to have handled it.

Frankly, if an adult hits a child and the adult is not engaged in self-defense or an actual sporting contest involving himself and the child, I think yes, he should be arrested and yes, he should go to jail.  I'd want zero tolerance for adults hitting children (not including minor corporal punishment).  Yeah, I'm thinking about how the father of that kid whose nose was bloodied and/or broken by an adult who lost his temper at the match; I'd want something done about it, and that doesn't mean a suspension or a fine.  

There is no excuse for adults hitting kids like that, ever.  Yeah, it's a martial arts match; but no kid there signed up to be blind-sided by an adult who wasn't even competing.


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## hal-apino (Feb 24, 2011)

StudentCarl said:


> Time to get a bowl of popcorn; if any of this is right, we'll be reading about it for a while.
> 
> It doesn't make sense to me that the CEO would be in the role of disqualifying or even the due process. Do we really have a process that lets an uncertified official overrule a ring ref with no one else in between like a tournament director? The comment related to the Canadian team doesn't make sense to me either. Any victim of an assault/battery has the right to file a complaint, and I believe it's a crime to attempt to coerce someone to do otherwise.  Is the Canadian coach someone with firsthand knowledge? Not questioning your integrity "Hal", but it would be good to know the sources on this. I wonder if the opposite side view video is a factor. What's the rest of the story?



Yes the coach had first hand knowledge,  it would not be beneficial to name this coach at this time as its clear USAT is trying to cover up the issue and retaliation would surly be forthcoming.   There will be a complaint filed and I am sure this is not the last of it.  

You can read part of the letter sent to me yesterday http://www.recoiltkd.com/Canadians-not-happy-with-David-Askinas.html

This does not really surprise me as the the same person (David) has done the same thing with the Elections, bylaw changes and removal of members all with the same unprofessional, unethical behavior. 
This is certainly not the first time that I have heard of "threats in reporting"  Take the athlete who reported to a National Coach abuse of another female and it was reported (by the abused) that he was told to keep his F-ing mouth shut or he would not make team!   Or the recent news that David is already Bragging that all the complaints will be dismissed as he has already spoke to the Judicial Committee!  
This behavior does not surprise me at all in fact it is rather typical of our Leader and I expect nothing less from him!


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

dowan50 said:


> In the last 37 years including fairly recent all of the above and not trying to be judgmental but just pointing out we fall short of the philosophy and I would put Westernization and commercialization to fault but I could be wrong about that since the worst offenders have been Korean born masters/gm so did we contaminate them or is it a myth about perfection or are we all just humans imperfect still no matter we should do our best we can. Some times the pot calling the kettle black is just to much




Are you talking about USTU/USAT and WTF events? Can you give examples of where a Korean born instructor attacked either another Korean born instructor or a referee? I have heard of one national incident but not at a WTF International Event.


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> I was also told by a Canadian coach that Keal Pinto was disqualified by David Askinas after he tried to have the center Ref do it and she refused.  Must be the reason they have posted Monday's results this morning but still not Sunday!
> 
> I was also told that David told Pinto if he filed charges that the Canadian Team would not be welcomed back to US Open.   They are not to happy and are filing a complaint with WTF on David Askinas.   If the coach is the brother of said coach in Florida he is also an IR, I would hope that the WTF strips his credentials as well as the USAT from coaching.



David Askinas is out of control.


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## terryl965 (Feb 24, 2011)

USAT or should I say David is doing nothing about it, they simply want this to go away. It is a shame they will allow this person to coach at events, if he is any ring with any of my players I will ask for him to be removed. 

On a side note I heard that the player is doing fine is in good spirits, I am glad it did not change his mind about TKD....


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## IcemanSK (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> Are you talking about USTU/USAT and WTF events? Can you give examples of where a Korean born instructor attacked either another Korean born instructor or a referee? I have heard of one national incident but not at a WTF International Event.



I can recall a state tournament (perhaps pre-USTU days in the early 80's) when two Korean-born instructors taking their dispute over "who's student won" outside in the parking lot. We never went back to that event again. I can't say that is was  because of that display by the 2 instructors, tho. My SBN was not one of those in the dispute.


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## d1jinx (Feb 24, 2011)

mango.man said:


> Just found the video from the other side of the mat (I thought there was to be no video taping on the floor)..


 
well, that video was recorded by the referees camera.  There is usually 1 at every ring.  they use it to record the referees performance and critique any events or incidents.  It is more of a tool used for the referees learning and advancement.

Oooops, did I just tell who video'd it?

well, if you dont believe me, look at the original video and you will see the tripod by the score table.  It is placed there by the higher up ref's. (usually true)

I actually think its a good idea and useful tool in referee developement.


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## d1jinx (Feb 24, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> .
> 
> I was also told by a Canadian coach that Keal Pinto was disqualified by David Askinas after he tried to have the center Ref do it and she refused. Must be the reason they have posted Monday's results this morning but still not Sunday! .


 

Ok.... I hope I dont choke to death in my sleep, BUT I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH HIM.  *Both* should have been disqualified.

I dont agree with the threat tactics or other way it may have been handled, but that was a DELIBERATE punch to the face injuring the opponent.  RED SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED.

GOOD.


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## hal-apino (Feb 25, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> Ok.... I hope I dont choke to death in my sleep, BUT I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH HIM.  *Both* should have been disqualified.
> 
> I dont agree with the threat tactics or other way it may have been handled, but that was a DELIBERATE punch to the face injuring the opponent.  RED SHOULD HAVE BEEN DISQUALIFIED.
> 
> GOOD.




That could be true and perhaps even what should have happened, however it is not up to David to decide that, it is not his place or position.   We have rules and if we allow David to step in and take control and change the rules in place then we have real issues.  I can name off the top of my head two females that have punched to the face , wonder why they were not disqualified by David!   
Is David going to follow this same procedure with all Punches to the face?   

Even if the center Ref did not apply the rule, we have rules in place to deal with that, and again that is not David stepping in!  

Yes David is out of Control and once again has taken a bad situation and made it worse!  
If both had been disqualified following proper procedures then so be it, that is not what happened!


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## hal-apino (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> David Askinas is out of control.



Ya think


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## puunui (Feb 25, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> That could be true and perhaps even what should have happened, however it is not up to David to decide that, it is not his place or position.   We have rules and if we allow David to step in and take control and change the rules in place then we have real issues.  I can name off the top of my head two females that have punched to the face , wonder why they were not disqualified by David!   Is David going to follow this same procedure with all Punches to the face?




I think there is enough evidence out there for the Board to fire David Askinas for cause. He tampers in matters that go far beyond his area of responsibility. He and by extension USAT, acts as if he/they answer to no one.


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## d1jinx (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> . He and by extension USAT, acts as if he/they answer to no one.


 
so far, they don't AND haven't.  thats the problem.


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## hal-apino (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think there is enough evidence out there for the Board to fire David Askinas for cause. He tampers in matters that go far beyond his area of responsibility. He and by extension USAT, acts as if he/they answer to no one.



Do we have a board is the question?  I am not certain that the board could take a vote at this point as their terms have been expired.  How does that work?


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## RSweet (Feb 25, 2011)

hal-apino said:


> Do we have a board is the question?  I am not certain that the board could take a vote at this point as their terms have been expired.  How does that work?



By the bylaws, those with expired terms remain in position until replaced. By delaying the elections, they have extended their terms. I was told by a former board member, at one time the plan was to postpone elections until June or later of 2011 - this was back in October this was discussed, according to him. As long as the current people remain in place, unless the Attorney General or the USOC demand his removal, he and herb are secure.


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## hal-apino (Feb 25, 2011)

RSweet said:


> By the bylaws, those with expired terms remain in position until replaced. By delaying the elections, they have extended their terms. I was told by a former board member, at one time the plan was to postpone elections until June or later of 2011 - this was back in October this was discussed, according to him. As long as the current people remain in place, unless the Attorney General or the USOC demand his removal, he and herb are secure.




Well I guess its time to write the board and demand his termination before my membership is terminated


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## Dictator Tot (Mar 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> That seems obvious by the attention Kael is getting to his nose right after the coach punched him.


 
In the video the person on the ground recieving attention is the US fighter who was punched by the canadian. After the canadian is punched by the US coach he just walks to his side of the ring.

The first Questionable kick to the head: it looks unclear if the ref official stopped the match, alot of coaches train there fighters not to stop till the ref says stop. If the step out of bounds, if they turn there back hit them, fights not over till the ref says stop. i could see how maybe the american fighter was unclear in the heat of the moment if the match was stopped and saw his chance. If the ref did say stop then it would warrant a kyong-go or a gamjeom. im not defending the kick but i find it understandable and i have seen things like that before.

the spin heel kick at the ended that prompted the canadian fighter to punch his opponent in the head looks to have been thrown right as the ref was trying to stop the match. i think that was a massive over reaction by canada.

but all in all the coach should atleast be banned from all future USAT events. that was unacceptable.

but thats just my 2cents.


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