# Hello, fellow martial artists. Dang, someone took that thread title.



## Ji Yuu (Jan 25, 2022)

Quick intro:
Mun Mu Kwan Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do practitioner for 46 years. Starting to expand into Kobudo.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2022)

Welcome to MT


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 25, 2022)

Welcome to MartialTalk!


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## Steve (Jan 25, 2022)

In the words of the great 20th century poet, Axl Rose, "Welcome."


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## _Simon_ (Jan 26, 2022)

Ah welcome to MT! Great to have you here, hope you enjoy


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## _Simon_ (Jan 26, 2022)

(Double post, whoops, first time I've ever done that, yes!)


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## seasoned (Jan 26, 2022)

Welcome to Martial Talk....enjoy your time here.


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## Instructor (Jan 26, 2022)

Welcome


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## Buka (Jan 26, 2022)

Welcome to MT, friend.


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## dvcochran (Jan 26, 2022)

Hello and welcome to the forum.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 28, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> Quick intro:
> Mun Mu Kwan Tae Kwon Do and Hap Ki Do practitioner for 46 years. Starting to expand into Kobudo.


I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 28, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?


Good question. And not easily answered.
I did a bit of searching. Looks like Mun Moo Kwan was founded in 1969. As near as I can tell, it's in PA, with only a couple of affiliate schools. There is apparently one in Colorado, but I cannot find any info on it, other than a google result that claims it's in Littleton. So I am guessing the Kwan is fairly small. I can find no real info on the founder or current instructors. The only organization mentioned on the PA website is Kukkiwon, so I presume they award KKW rank. But that site also indicates that they use the Chang Hon forms. So if they're awarding KKW rank, they're apparently doing so without actually teaching the KKW curriculum.


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## dvcochran (Jan 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Good question. And not easily answered.
> I did a bit of searching. Looks like Mun Moo Kwan was founded in 1969. As near as I can tell, it's in PA, with only a couple of affiliate schools. There is apparently one in Colorado, but I cannot find any info on it, other than a google result that claims it's in Littleton. So I am guessing the Kwan is fairly small. I can find no real info on the founder or current instructors. The only organization mentioned on the PA website is Kukkiwon, so I presume they award KKW rank. But that site also indicates that they use the Chang Hon forms. So if they're awarding KKW rank, they're apparently doing so without actually teaching the KKW curriculum.


Which in turn limits the KKW advancement to 3rd or 4th Dan. Assuming the Instructor himself has not pursued higher rank and now the Master courses.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 29, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> Which in turn limits the KKW advancement to 3rd or 4th Dan. Assuming the Instructor himself has not pursued higher rank and now the Master courses.


Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan. 
And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.


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## dvcochran (Jan 29, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
> And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.


For the most part but it is supposed to be changing. 4th Dan and above plus the instructor will have to go through the Master class.
It is my understanding that a lot of grandfathering is going on for instructors who have been teaching for a while.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2022)

Greetings and welcome to MT!


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## Yanli (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
> And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.


  I have been hearing a lot about how instructors can only teach up to a certain rank, I find it odd that even a forth degree does not grow in rank so they can continue teaching up to a higher rank. There is an instructor near me that tells his students that once they have received a black belt, they have to go to Asia to advance? I do not remember exactly what his form is, but I find it ridiculous to pay a school that can only teach up to a black belt, is this common? I am from a small town in a rural area, is there something I am missing or unaware of???


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I have been hearing a lot about how instructors can only teach up to a certain rank,


I'm pretty sure this is near universal. Do you know any arts that allow a teacher to promote someone to a higher level than the teacher?


Yanli said:


> I find it odd that even a forth degree does not grow in rank so they can continue teaching up to a higher rank.


That would be entirely up to the 4th Dan. If they want to promote high than 3rd, they will need to seek out training and promotion.


Yanli said:


> There is an instructor near me that tells his students that once they have received a black belt, they have to go to Asia to advance?


I don't think that's common at all. 


Yanli said:


> I do not remember exactly what his form is, but I find it ridiculous to pay a school that can only teach up to a black belt, is this common? I am from a small town in a rural area, is there something I am missing or unaware of???


I suspect you're missing something.


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## Ji Yuu (May 25, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> I'm not familiar with Mun Mu Kwan. What is its origin? Is it one of the Kwans that was an offshoot of the "original" 5 (9 later on)?


The original Mun Mu Kwan was founded in 1966 and the name was suggested by General Choi, one of TKDs founders. I think by 1969, the MMK branched out into a few small schools and formed the World Tae Kwon Do Association. Somewhere along the line, they became affiliated with Kukkiwan while maintaining the old curriculum (Chang Hon pattern set). The old school I attended bore the WTKD Association and the WTWD Federation patches. Our certificates even declared the school's attachment to both.

As far as it's lineage goes, I think the MMK founder was a part of either the Mu Duk Kwan or Chun Do Kwan. But I am not sure. I have been trying to create a lineage chart which is surprisingly difficult.


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## Ji Yuu (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Seems odd that a person could get to even 1st Dan without knowing the KKW curriculum.
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Kukkiwon rules allow promotion to one rank below the recommending instructor, with the exception of 8th and 9th Dan, which must be tested at the Kukkiwon. So depending on the KKW rank of the instructor, they could potentially be promoting up to 7th Dan.
> And of course, none of that impacts rank awarded by their Kwan.


I understand your point about it being odd to get 1st Dan without knowing KKW material. However, there is a local Mu Duk Kwan school that is under the KKW banner and test all belts, including dan ranks, under the old Chang Hon curriculum. No one there learns the Tae Guk patterns, yet they are all recognized by the KKW. I don't understand that, unless the school was grandfathered in at some point.


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## Yanli (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm pretty sure this is near universal. Do you know any arts that allow a teacher to promote someone to a higher level than the teacher?
> 
> That would be entirely up to the 4th Dan. If they want to promote high than 3rd, they will need to seek out training and promotion.
> 
> ...


  I am not speaking of a teacher promoting someone at a higher rank than themselves, but a teacher that can only promote someone to a black belt when they are a 4th degree.


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> I understand your point about it being odd to get 1st Dan without knowing KKW material. However, there is a local Mu Duk Kwan school that is under the KKW banner and test all belts, including dan ranks, under the old Chang Hon curriculum.


That's even weirder, since the Moo Duk Kwan started out with the Pinan when it was Tang Soo Do, changed to the Palgwae with the unification, then went back to the Pinan forms when part of the MDK left the unification and went back to Tang Soo Do. That was eventually changed to Soo Bahk Do, but I believe still uses the same forms. The Chang Hon forms are no part of that. So the lineage of that school is probably somewhat sketchy.


Ji Yuu said:


> No one there learns the Tae Guk patterns, yet they are all recognized by the KKW. I don't understand that, unless the school was grandfathered in at some point.


I do not believe there is a system for grandfathering ranks. There are, however, plenty of people with KKW rank who will sign the papers to turn your non-KKW rank into KKW rank. The KKW does not sanction this, but there is no enforcement and never will be.
There are a few problems with this.
When you sign the KKW promotion form, you are attesting that the person you are recommending meets the KKW requirements. So if they don't know the Taegeuk forms, you're lying. Happens all the time, but I have issues with the dishonesty involved.
When this sort of conversion/assimilation occurs, there may not ever be an actual physical meeting between the two people. Just mail them a check. 
The school you mention needs someone with KKW rank of 4th Dan or higher to sign off on promotions. They may have earned that rank, or it may have been a transfer. But in either case, the fact that they're offering KKW rank without teaching KKW curriculum calls their integrity into question. Personally, I think integrity is important.
Our students can get Moo Duk Kwan and/or KKW certification. But if they want KKW rank, they must know the KKW curriculum.


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

Yanli said:


> I am not speaking of a teacher promoting someone at a higher rank than themselves, but a teacher that can only promote someone to a black belt when they are a 4th degree.


That is standard in KKW schools. The Kukkiwon considers 4th Dan to be the first teaching rank. After all, it's not at all uncommon for KKW schools to award 1st Dan (or Poom) after just a year of training. 1st Dan (or poom) is very much a beginner rank in the eyes of the KKW.
Organizations get to set their own rules.


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## Ji Yuu (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's even weirder, since the Moo Duk Kwan started out with the Pinan when it was Tang Soo Do, changed to the Palgwae with the unification, then went back to the Pinan forms when part of the MDK left the unification and went back to Tang Soo Do. That was eventually changed to Soo Bahk Do, but I believe still uses the same forms. The Chang Hon forms are no part of that. So the lineage of that school is probably somewhat sketchy.
> 
> I do not believe there is a system for grandfathering ranks. There are, however, plenty of people with KKW rank who will sign the papers to turn your non-KKW rank into KKW rank. The KKW does not sanction this, but there is no enforcement and never will be.
> There are a few problems with this.
> ...


I was hesitant to say some instructors would be lying on the said forms. I, too, have issues with such dishonesty.

And yes, the lineage seems to get foggy the further you dig into it.


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## Ji Yuu (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> That is standard in KKW schools. The Kukkiwon considers 4th Dan to be the first teaching rank. After all, it's not at all uncommon for KKW schools to award 1st Dan (or Poom) after just a year of training. 1st Dan (or poom) is very much a beginner rank in the eyes of the KKW.
> Organizations get to set their own rules.


1 year?! Wow. When I started in 1975, we had 10 grade system and it took the average person 8 years to get to black. In fact, our junior instructors were red belts (1st gup).


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## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

Ji Yuu said:


> 1 year?! Wow. When I started in 1975, we had 10 grade system and it took the average person 8 years to get to black. In fact, our junior instructors were red belts (1st gup).


I'm guessing you weren't in Korea. But it's also not uncommon in the US today to see 1-2 years to 1st Dan.


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## Ji Yuu (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm guessing you weren't in Korea. But it's also not uncommon in the US today to see 1-2 years to 1st Dan.


Not in Korea. The school was in US. The head of the school, however, was Korean; Grandmaster Chae Teok Goh. He's now retired.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2022)

It all depends on the instructor's/style's philosophy on belt ranks. And why I prefer year in style rather than rank when trying to get a feel for someone's abilities. That's still not perfect, but better than the crapshoot that is having a blackbelt.


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## Ji Yuu (May 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It all depends on the instructor's/style's philosophy on belt ranks. And why I prefer year in style rather than rank when trying to get a feel for someone's abilities. That's still not perfect, but better than the crapshoot that is having a blackbelt.


I agree with you. One who has 20+ years experience of training/practice/exploring one art and holding a black belt vs one who has 1-2 years experience in the same art and holding the same rank. I think it's obvious which would likely be the more capable martial artist.


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