# Q an A



## Goldendragon7

Ok.... Ask a Question and I will try and answer it.....

Who is first........
:asian:


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## Rainman

what do you have for an accent mark?  

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

This should be easy. What's the difference between the underhand heel of palm and an upward claw? Is it the height of the strike or what?
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## eternalwhitebelt

originally form seven was a double knife fom. why was it changed to a double stick form.  how do you think this use of weapons in kenpo compares with the filipino systems. kenpo seems to lack counter to counter drills when it comes to the weapons, i feel this is a big gap in training and is necessary if you areto be realistic.  what are your thoughts on this subject.


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## eternalwhitebelt

If you had to pick 10 things to pass on in the kenpo curriculum what would they be?  They can be anything from specific techs. to particular concepts to general ideas.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> what do you have for an accent mark?
> *



anywhere or during the Sal?


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> What's the difference between the underhand heel of palm and an upward claw? Is it the height of the strike or what?*



A underhand heelpalm is a heel palm thrown as it rises from a low region upwards ..... and hits strictly with the palm heel

A upward Claw is a maneuver similar to the upward heelpalm but also uses the fingers in a "clawing"  fashion .


:asian:


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> anywhere or during the Sal?
> 
> 
> :asian: *




I said what do you have- not what I already said:rofl:  No cheating 



:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

Goldendragon,
I looked at the underhand heel of palm as a strike to the groin stopping on a lower plain. The upward claw on the other hand I execute as a strike going towards face level on a higher plain.
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> *originally form seven was a double knife fom. why was it changed to a double stick form.  how do you think this use of weapons in kenpo compares with the filipino systems. kenpo seems to lack counter to counter drills when it comes to the weapons, i feel this is a big gap in training and is necessary if you areto be realistic.  what are your thoughts on this subject. *


Well, the knife form was finished first and initially dubbed Form 7 

When the stick form was done.. Mr. Parker decided to move it to the higher position and change it to Form 8.

It is different from the fma because Ed Parker had differing views on the use of the knife in certain circumstances.

I think the realization of your question is proof of the product.  If you realize, thru the use of Kenpo Logic that there is a necessity for a different drill to emphasis a weakness..... that's how we evolve and plug holes....  how do you think we arrived with several of the Forms, sets, techniques, and drills.

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> *If you had to pick 10 things to pass on in the kenpo curriculum what would they be?  They can be anything from specific techs. to particular concepts to general ideas. *



1)   Analytical study of motion....
2)   Short 1
3)   Long 1
4)   Short 2 
5)   Long 2
6)   Short 3
7)   Long 3
8)   Long 4
9)   Long 5 
10) Long 6

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> I said what do you have- not what I already said.
> *[/QUOTE
> 
> From the 2nd hand signal (at right) as you raise your elbow and hand (warrior & Scholar)] the right hand blocks as the left heel palm  strikes......
> 
> Now I'm not gonna let go all of these ........ mister....... lol
> 
> :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I looked at the underhand heel of palm as a strike to the groin stopping on a lower plain. The upward claw on the other hand I execute as a strike going towards face level on a higher plain.
> Jason Farnsworth *



You CAN look at it that way also..... but they are two different strikes.....    an upward heelpalm can also be to the chin, likewise an upward claw can be delivered upward to the groin.

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

The difference being the fingers are used as the secondary back up weapons! 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7

:asian:


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> [ Now I'm not gonna let go all of these ........ mister....... lol
> 
> :asian: [/B]




:roflmao: 


:asian:


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Ok.... Ask a Question and I will try and answer it.....
> 
> Who is first........
> :asian: *



If it is true, that AK techniques will continue to evolve, but then, why not the forms as well? Just Curious!:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> If it is true, that AK techniques will continue to evolve, but then, why not the forms as well? Just Curious!:asian: *



Remember the 1st 4 Forms are considered the Dictionary's of Kenpo...... then short 3 up are considered the Encyclopedias...... and the sets are the appendices....

Think of the forms as the head of the Octopus and the techniques are the tentacles.......

:asian:


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## Kirk

If a train left New York at noon going to Los Angeles, and at
the same time on the same track a train is leaving Los Angeles
and headed for New York, both trains are going a speed of 98
miles per hour .. at what time will the emminent collision happen?

:rofl:


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## Kempojujutsu

I have seen this technique, but this one I beleive would not work in a real life situation. I have try doing this technique, it hurts my shoulders to reach up like that and grab. Second if they have a tight squeeze on your neck you got on seconds to get it off. Third I have heard of people trying to do a thumb lock with the back of the neck. thats B.S also. It is easier for the attacker to pull you back then is for you to pull him forward. I beleive in have a couple base techniques that work really well. Then having many that may only work occasional.
Bob :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *If a train left New York at noon going to Los Angeles, and at
> the same time on the same track a train is leaving Los Angeles
> and headed for New York, both trains are going a speed of 98
> miles per hour .. at what time will the emminent collision happen?
> *



There always has to be one..........  12'clock...... not it time to save the trains....... but I'll have to track this one..... But if I went to the Stations 2 hours after they left and no one was around..... I would know that they left!  (I could see their tracks)

Now smart guy....... KENPO QUESTIONS ONLY  ....... geez

:rofl: 
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *I have seen this technique, but this one I beleive would not work in a real life situation. I have try doing this technique, it hurts my shoulders to reach up like that and grab. Second if they have a tight squeeze on your neck you got on seconds to get it off. Third I have heard of people trying to do a thumb lock with the back of the neck. thats B.S also. It is easier for the attacker to pull you back then is for you to pull him forward. I beleive in have a couple base techniques that work really well. Then having many that may only work occasional.
> Bob :asian: *



Well Bob, 

Each technique/drill is taught for a reason, and they are only different possibilities that one may use to escape from a given attack.  It certainly is not the only technique you could use and can be modified via knowledge of your "kenpo tools",  i.e., you could stomp the instep to loosen up the grip so as to make it easier to escape thru the knowledgeable use of the equation formula's prefix. 

I don't know exactly how clearly it was explained to you.   There are several interpretations ..... here is an idea also...... you don't even need the hands to escape this hold..... you step off to your left and dip your head (as is done in the base explanation) and turn counter clockwise (without the hand grabs) and  raise up.  That alone can release the grip.  From there you can left reverse sword hand to the  groin or run..... 

There are many, many different understandings of each technique to explore ask your instructor and keep working and studying the system ......... Your questions will lead you to the truth and knowledge.

:asian:


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## eternalwhitebelt

How do you explain the hand isolations at the end of form six? Disarms? Do you explicitely teach this, or do you just say they are disarms( if they are), and leave the student to try to figure out how they are applied?

EXcellent use of this forum.  I have been waiting for this to be used for the right purposes.


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## eternalwhitebelt

When you teach short one how indepth do you go?  Do you just explain walking the neutral with a double factor block, or do you unload everything you know about it?  Could you unload some of the more esoteric knowledge you have concerning this form?  Just a little something off the wall that will get me thinking.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> *How do you explain the hand isolations at the end of form six? Disarms? Do you explicitely teach this, or do you just say they are disarms( if they are), and leave the student to try to figure out how they are applied?
> EXcellent use of this forum.  I have been waiting for this to be used for the right purposes. *



at the end of Long 6 are (don't tell anyone now.... this is secret)
the Right and Left hand movements of the 1st Technique in the form, and the next set are the Right and Left hand movements of the last technique in the form.

Thank you...... I think this is also a productive and useful way to ask questions.

:asian:


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *If a train left New York at noon going to Los Angeles, and at
> the same time on the same track a train is leaving Los Angeles
> and headed for New York, both trains are going a speed of 98
> miles per hour .. at what time will the emminent collision happen?*



Call the train station. They pay people to figure this out for you.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _*
> When you teach short one how indepth do you go?  Do you just explain walking the neutral with a double factor block, or do you unload everything you know about it?  Could you unload some of the more esoteric knowledge you have concerning this form?  Just a little something off the wall that will get me thinking. *



All my teaching depends upon who I am teaching at that time.  If it is an adult or child I may vary the type of instruction..... Lets talk adult and beginner........

I teach the basic form and do not "unload" (as you say lol) the entire realm of possibilities (that would take me several hours or days anyway).  They are beginners and as such can and need only the basic understandings at this time,  Emphasis ("at this time").   Kenpo is a "Process" and as such we need only to impart the necessary material that the student needs right now.  At a later date once they have matured with skill and familiarity of the form (or technique) then it is time to impart more of the meanings and usage of the Form. 

The 1st 4 Forms to our system are the dictionary's of the system and as such define movements that we use.  here are a few....

Short Form # 1 teaches .....
Retreat  while blocking with the front arm
Double factor
Rotation..... arm/body
Increasing depth
narrowing width
dropping height
4 basic blocks
180 degree angle changes
90 degree angle changes
to cover
opposing forces
settling
eye focus
peripheral vision
transitory covers
rear leg buckles
front leg checks
multiple striking within one motion
others.......

Mr. Parker has a  saying.... "In motion is motion often overlooked"

:asian:


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## Mace

Do you still find time to physically practice alone each week and if so, how much time on average?
Respectfully,
Mace


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## eternalwhitebelt

I knew that they are the 1st movements of the first and last techs. in the form, I just wanted to know if you taught any applications for these movements.  They seem to be very similar to filipino strips.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> *Do you still find time to physically practice alone each week and if so, how much time on average?
> *



Of late, no  I don't work out physically, more teaching and administrative.   When I do it is usually for 30 minutes to an hour at this point in my life.  When I was younger I would spend 3 to 4 hours a day.

:asian:


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## Klondike93

When you do get the chance to practice, what do you practice the most?

Also, I have heard many times the first four forms are the dictonary of kenpo and the others the encyclopedias. Could you please expand on this a little more what you mean?


:asian: 
(a little slow of mind still, but improving)


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *If a train left New York at noon going to Los Angeles, and at
> the same time on the same track a train is leaving Los Angeles
> and headed for New York, both trains are going a speed of 98
> miles per hour .. at what time will the emminent collision happen?
> 
> :rofl: *



( Please excuse the non-Kempo/Kenpo answer *)

I believe that the collision will not occur.

If A train left at Noon from NY and then
left at 9 AM from LA which is actually three
hours time delayed, when one would think the
trains would meet, would not occur since the
frame of reference for each train would be at
a different time. Therefore, the trains would
not collide since they would not be in the
same place at the same time.

See what a little bit of Philosophy and Mathematics
and late night bonfires and beer can get you. 

Back to Kempo/Kenpo - My apologies for the interruption. 

Rich


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *
> 
> ( Please excuse the non-Kempo/Kenpo answer *)
> 
> I believe that the collision will not occur.
> 
> If A train left at Noon from NY and then
> left at 9 AM from LA which is actually three
> hours time delayed, when one would think the
> trains would meet, would not occur since the
> frame of reference for each train would be at
> a different time. Therefore, the trains would
> not collide since they would not be in the
> same place at the same time.
> 
> See what a little bit of Philosophy and Mathematics
> and late night bonfires and beer can get you.
> 
> Back to Kempo/Kenpo - My apologies for the interruption.
> 
> Rich *



Aha, but they're on the same track, with a set velocity.  The
NY train would leave at noon EST, and the LA train would leave
at noon PST.  So you'd have to factor in 3 hours of distance on
the NY train (3 x 98).  Given the distance, 98 mph isn't all that
much, so a collision, I THINK would be eminant.  I'm not gonna
actually figure it out though, it was a joke :-D .. but I couldn't
resist arguing with ya!


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> Aha, but they're on the same track, with a set velocity.  The
> NY train would leave at noon EST, and the LA train would leave
> at noon PST.  So you'd have to factor in 3 hours of distance on
> the NY train (3 x 98).  Given the distance, 98 mph isn't all that
> much, so a collision, I THINK would be eminant.  I'm not gonna
> actually figure it out though, it was a joke :-D .. but I couldn't
> resist arguing with ya!  *



You know, I always hated math in school, and I still hate it now. It's time to end this exercise in futility right now!



:redeme:


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## Dominic Jones

Hi Dennis 

3 quick questions 

When teaching a step through side blade kick does your supporting foot stay in a neutal 45 degrees OR pivot to 90, 180 degrees?

When sparring what guard position do you prefer?  One high/one low OR both high (boxing style) covering the head?

After a belt test do you have a standard belt giving ceremony.  If so what do you do and say?

Cheers Dominic


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> When you do get the chance to practice, what do you practice the most?
> 
> Also, I have heard many times the first four forms are the dictionary of kenpo and the others the encyclopedias. Could you please expand on this a little more what you mean?*



1)
It all depends upon what I am working on at the current time.  Some times it techniques, sometimes its forms, always work on basics and form...... balance also.

2)
Definitions "define" motion........ encyclopedias "explain details"....

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _*
> When teaching a step through side blade kick does your supporting foot stay in a neutal 45 degrees OR pivot to 90, 180 degrees?
> 
> When sparring what guard position do you prefer?  One high/one low OR both high (boxing style) covering the head?
> 
> After a belt test do you have a standard belt giving ceremony.  If so what do you do and say?
> 
> Cheers Dominic *



1)
My base (left) foot pivots (points back) towards 7 clock (if kicking with the right)

2)
* I use several positions depending up who my opponent is an
   what he does..... 
*If he is a head hunter then at least my lead hand is high...... 
*If a lead leg  groin kicker my rear hand is usually lower....
*Normally both hands are mid chest or front hand low on my hips 
  and rear hand  near center chest, until I figure out what he 
  does.........

3)
I posted the belt ceremony once on Martial Talk.......

FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING EXAMINATION FOR PROMOTION   (Observers are not permitted to witness the Formal Test)

During the testing period for promotion, the following formalities should be adhered to: 

LINE UP   The students (or student) being tested will be commanded to line up at the designated area.

TRAINING HORSE - They will then be commanded to execute a Training Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on their hips).

They are to remain in this stance until the Board of Examiners
(Testing Committee) give them further instructions. 

MEDITATE   Meditation will be the next command. 

ATTENTION   Attention will be the next command. 

SALUTATION   The group will then be commanded to execute the Full Salutation. 

BOW  The command to bow will then be given. 

SIT DOWN   Students being tested will then be commanded to sit down on  the mat, cross their legs, sit erect, and keep their hands on  their laps. (The Board of Examiners has the option to request that  students stand, reposition themselves, or make any other adjustments dictated by environment, or by the nature of the Test.)

FRONT & CENTER   When student names are called, they are to come to the front, center themselves before the Board, stand at 
Attention (with their hands alongside their legs), and focus their attention on the Chief Examiner conducting the test. 

RESPONSE   Students will then listen to what is asked of them and
respond, "Yes Sir", in acknowledgement of each and every request.

COMMENCE   Depending upon the request, the student will commence by demonstrating his skill and knowledge according to the best of his ability.

SALUTE   After completing everything that is requested, the student will then salute the Board of Examiners and await the command to return. 

RETURN   The student will then be commanded to return to his/her position and await further instructions. (Encourage 
students to  take prompt action when returning to their former position.) 

LINE UP   At the conclusion of the testing period, all students will
be commanded to line up in a straight line in front of the Board
of Examiners. They will then be commanded to remain in a 
Training Horse Stance (with their fists clenched and cocked on 
heir hips.)

 They are to remain fast and await further instructions. 

DECISION - At this point the Board of Examiners must make whatever decisions are necessary to establish who passed or failed their test. It is suggested that the Board of Examiners seek an isolated area, or room, where no one (other than the Examiners) can hear the discussions and decisions that are being made. Once the decisions are made, with the majority rule taking precedent, return to the testing area to inform the students as to who passed or failed.

NOTE: Students being tested are to be warned that any talking,
slouching, or unapproved adjournment during the testing period
could result in disqualification. 

FURTHER NOTE: Realizing that testing procedures often require
tailoring, permission is hereby granted if such action is
necessary to improve the situation.

REMINDER: The above procedures are for FORMAL TESTS and observers are not permitted to witness such tests. Instructors, however, may wish to conduct INFORMAL TESTS of their own. In this case observers may be permitted if so elected.

   FORMAL PROCEDURES TO BE OBSERVED DURING PROMOTION 

RETURN - The Board of Examiners, upon their return, will now become the Presentation Committee.

ATTENTION   At this point it is the duty of the Chief Examiner to call the students to Attention. Upon his command, the students will snap to Attention and face the Presentation Committee as they re- enter the room. 

COMMENTS   General and specific comments will then be adressed to individuals or the group as a whole. Students will 
then be told whether they passed or failed. 

FRONT & CENTER   Those individuals who did not pass the test will be asked to reassemble to the rear. Those who passed will be asked to  move to the front and center themselves before the Presentation Committee. If the number of students who passed are of concern, it is recommended that two or more lines be formed to accommodate the group. If there is only enough to form one line, have the students remain where they are presently standing.

KNEEL   The students will receive the command to kneel before the  Presentation Committee. 

NEW BELT   The new belt will then be placed on the floor in front of, and parallel to the student. 

OLD BELT   The students will then be commanded to take off their old belt. They are to neatly fold their old belt and place it
vertically and to the left of their new belt so that when the left
end of the new belt touches the bottom end of the old belt, they
form the letter "L".  They will then be instructed as to the significance of this belt formation.

THE TOUCH   From the students' kneeling position, command them to bow, and touch their foreheads to the top and flat side 
of their new belt. Have them remain in this position for at least six (6) seconds before returning to their kneeling, upright position.   They will again be instructed as to the significance of this formality.

NEW BELT   The students who have passed will then put on their new belt and will adjust the knot on their belt so that it is
positioned properly. 

RISE   Upon the command rise, the students will then snap into an
Attention Stance.

TRAINING HORSE - When commanded, the students will then drop into a Training Horse with their fists clenched and on their hips. 

INITIATION   The Chief Examiner and the Instructor(s) will then
initiate the students, as well as explain the reason for the
initiation. 

ATTENTION   The passing group will then be commanded to come to Attention. 

LINE UP   The entire group (whether they passed or failed) will then be commanded to again return back to their original formation when first tested and line up in an orderly manner.

COMMENTS   Final comments will be addressed to the students. 

COMMITTEE - At this point the Presentation Committee will also stand and form a line facing the students. The highest ranking belt will stand to the extreme left (Committee's point of view) and all others (highest to the least) to his right.

SALUTE & HANDSHAKE   All students will then be commanded to execute a Humble Salute and shake the hand of each Committee member, starting from the highest to the least ranking black belt. (From the student's point of view, they will start at the right and work their way to the left.) The first student to start this procedure will be the student with the highest rank. All others are to follow in the order of their succeeding rank. 

Congratulations are in order if committeemen wish to do so.

JOIN - When the Senior Student salutes and shakes the hand of the last     Presentation member, he and the remaining students are to join the line and in turn salute, and shake the hands of each of the remaining students. Students may also congratulate each other if the wish to do so.

MEDITATE   The entire group will then be asked to Meditate. 

ATTENTION   They will then be commanded to come to Attention. 

SALUTATION   All will then be commanded to execute a Full Salutation. 

BOW   The final formal command will be to execute the concluding bow. 

DISMISS   All will then be dismissed. 

NOTE: All students will be required to pick up their belt (if they
have not already done so) and clean up the testing area. 

REMINDER: Observers are not permitted to witness the FORMAL TEST. They may, however, be allowed to witness the promotion.                       

                   PRESENTATION OF RANK CEREMONY

When you are commanded to take off your old belt from your kneeling position, you will be required to neatly fold your old belt and place it vertically and to the left of your new belt. When properly positioned the left end of your new belt should touch the bottom end of your old belt so that the letter "L" is formed. (See illustration.) You will then be informed that this "L" shaped belt formation has four significant meanings -- LIE, LONGEVITY, LOYALTY, and LOTS & LOTS.  The following will then be read to give you an indepth understanding of the significance of these terms:

1.  If the "L" formed before you stands for a LIE, a LIE that you
     are not deserving of your new rank, then you are not to
     accept it. However, if you feel that you have earned it,
     knowing with assurance that it is not being given to you as a
     gift, you may then accept it. 
2.  If receiving your new rank is not a LIE then "L" can take on
     its second meaning -- LONGEVITY or your ability to prolong
     your life. LONGEVITY can only come about if your knowledge of
     Kenpo is internalized to a point of spontaneous and
     successful application. If receiving your new rank is a LIE,
     then LONGEVITY will be short lived.  
3.  "L" also refers to LOYALTY. Whether it be to your instructor,
      association, or country, LOYALTY cultivates integrity and
      respect.
4.  The statement, "One becomes humble when he comes to the
     realization that what he knows is very little.", is an
     introduction to the meaning of the fourth "L". In this case
     "L" stands for LOTS and LOTS. That is, no matter how good 
     you become there is still LOTS and LOTS to learn and perfect.

From your kneeling position, you will be commanded to bow and touch your forehead to the top and flat side of your new belt. You will remain in this position for approximately five (5) seconds before being asked to return to your kneeling position.  The 
significance of this formality is as follows (read):

1.  At the moment your forehead touches your new belt you are to
     mentally transfer your previous knowledge to your new rank
     and to establish room for greater knowledge yet to come. You
     are to also ponder on the following: 

     a.  Fully understand your new roll as a senior student.
     b   Become a competent example among your fellow students.
     c.  Create rapport among them.
     d.  Encourage, and assist them whenever possible.
     e.  Avoid taking advantage of them.
     f.  In no way subject them to ridicule and suppression.

While still kneeling the following will then be read to those being promoted:

As you are promoted to your next rank, do you solemnly pledge to use the art of Kenpo solely for purposes of defense and never for aggression? (Wait for response.) Will you strive to impart an attitude of respect and appreciation for the art of Kenpo, and an understanding of what Kenpo truly entails? (Wait for response.) Will you endeavor to refrain or sanction the use of Kenpo for destructive or harmful designs? (Wait for response.) Do you make these promises solemnly and on your honor? (Wait for response.) 

As long as you continue to keep this oath inviolate, may it be granted that you enjoy the life and practice of Kenpo, and forever be respected by your associates. However, should you trespass and violate this oath, it is hoped that the reverse will not be your lot.

                     Let us now recite the Kenpo Creed:

     "I come to you with only Karate, empty hands. I have no weapons, but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles, or my honor; should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong; then here are my weapons, Karate, my empty hands." 

By the authority granted under the constitution of the governing body of the Organization, we do hereby grant you your new and respective rank(s). 

The student(s) who have passed will then put on his/her (their) new belt and will adjust the knot on his/her (their) belt so that it is positioned as required -- left side for males and right side for females.

The following will then be read:

Any dishonor to this school, the Orginization, or to any of its members can bring immediate and automatic revocation of rank and honor. As symbolized in our association patch, the bottom which forms the shape of an ax represents the executioner. In the event a member is influenced by evil ideas and thoughts contrary to our philosophy, or shames the Organization, he is to be cut off, never to co-exist with us again. (Display illustration of ax.)

     Those who have been promoted will then be asked to stand in a horse stance with hands clenched and cocked at the waist. At this stage all will be informed of the next part of the ceremony -- the BIRTH OF PAIN. The following will then be read or extemporaneously discussed:

     The earning of your new rank can be compared to the birth of a new child. For those of you who have been advanced from one color belt to another, the birth of your new rank is obvious. On the other hand for those of you who have received tips within the rank of Brown or Black, your new rank, although not as obvious, is indeed significant. Therefore, comparable to a female who goes through labor pains during the birth of her new child you too will be symbolically experiencing the birth of pain regarding your new rank. This experience is obtained through the execution of a friendly kick as a reminder that the new rank you have received did not come easy. Accordingly rank should not come easy for those you teach. Make every effort to make them work for their rank as you have. The birth of pain is a reminder that your students should earn and not be given new rank.   

There you go...........


:asian:


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## satans.barber

Why do we have right handed fighters train from a left stance predominantly (dominant hand at the rear) whilst many styles such as Kung Fu seem to have their fighters use stances such that their dominant hand is their lead hand?

Also, I'm right handed and left legged, is this rare/freakish/a problem?

Ian.


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *If a train left New York at noon going to Los Angeles, and at
> the same time on the same track a train is leaving Los Angeles
> and headed for New York, both trains are going a speed of 98
> miles per hour .. at what time will the emminent collision happen?
> 
> :rofl: *



well, Kirk, since there are at least six different routes from New York to LA, you'd have to know which track they're on, or at least the number of miles they're travelling....

also, 98 mph is a little unreasonable for trains... I think metrolinks average about 65 or so, and they go faster than amtracks.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _*
> Why do we have right handed fighters train from a left stance predominantly (dominant hand at the rear) whilst many styles such as Kung Fu seem to have their fighters use stances such that their dominant hand is their lead hand?
> 
> Also, I'm right handed and left legged, is this rare/freakish/a problem?Ian.
> *



1)
Since the majority of humans are right handed.... we tend to fight from a left neutral bow (left leg forward/right rear) as a common comfortable starting position.  This is due to the natural phenomenon of "shield and sword".  We typically have a "sacrifice" (shield) hand and a "power" (sword) hand...  The sacrifice hand is the left which naturally would be forward and the sword or power hand is in the rear.  You can generate more power with the rear hand than the front, same is true with kicking.  So the "left neutral bow" allows for the majority to be able to block or shield with their lead hand and deliver a powerful blow with the rear.  Of course, since we train both sides in Kenpo, we actually become ambidextrous of sorts.

Personally I fight most often with the right lead because the mis-alignment of the majority is a benefit to me.  My strong hand is forward and quicker leg for kicking and sweeping leads.  For "point" tournaments where "knock out power" is un-necessary this is an advantage for me.

2)
As to your right handed - left legged personal realization, no you are not freakish, but blessed.   LOL, whatever abilities you have you turn into usefulness in combat.  Just continue to develop all your other abilities to match what you have "naturally" and you will become "gaseous"  in action.

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale

I'm blessed with being ambidextrous, so I change my fighting stance around depending on who I'm fighting.  I generally write with my right hand and paint with my left hand.  However, when I'm in school and taking a lot of notes, if my writing hand gets tired, i just switch.  Drives my teachers batty.  I think a lot of it may be growing up in the computer/vid game age.  you have to use both hands fairly equally to do well at stuff like that.  Also, I think I was probably born left handed, and my mom tried to switch me.  I remember her taking things out of my left hand and putting them in my right, but I think she did me a favor. Now I can write with either hand, paint with either hand, play a guitar left or right handed, switch hit in softball, and fight comfortably with either hand lead.  I fence left handed because the person who taught me was a lefty, tho.   It is very convenient when you do something silly like sprain a wrist, which I do more often than i'd like to admit.  I am decidedly right footed though.


----------



## Michael Billings

Mr. Conatser,

Just a note to let you know how much I am enjoying the Q&A string.  I am surprised that more people are not asking about your relationship with Mr. Parker.

How long were you doing Chinese Kenpo before you switched to EPAKK?  What rank did you obtain and did you continue the Tracy derivation NCKKA techniques for a while?  Following that when did you start with American Kenpo, then end up as Mr. Parker's shadow at seminars?  Then doing seminars on your own as an intro to SGM Parker? (I know a lot of this is in The Journey, but I wanted to hear/read more if you feel like sharing.)  

By the way, I have a picture up in the school of you, Mr. Parker, and a bunch of Mr. Duffy's senior students at the time.  It had to be at one of the early seminars in Austin (it has to be pre-1986, because I was still a Brown Belt.)  

Answer as little or as much as you want.  I can keep my questions more Applied Kenpo oriented if that is what you intended for this string? 

:asian: 
Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _*Mr. Conatser,
> Just a note to let you know how much I am enjoying the Q&A string.  I am surprised that more people are not asking about your relationship with Mr. Parker.
> *



I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the string.  I didn't know if anyone was interested in asking questions or not so I thought I'd try it.  The feedback is good to determine what is wanted or not.



> *
> How long were you doing Chinese Kenpo before you switched to EPAKK?  What rank did you obtain and did you continue the Tracy derivation NCKKA techniques for a while?
> *



For 7 1/2 years I was a member of the N.C.K.K.A., and achieved my 1st Black in 4 1/2 years under Lonny Coots, then studied with his instructor for a couple of years and received my 2nd Black (lol was also demoted for one year back to 1st after being very vocal on some issue)  oppss.....    I continued to use the techniques that I had been taught and was in process of "Parkerizing" them when I got the opportunity to study directly with Mr. Parker.  Once with Mr. Parker, I dropped the outdated technique curriculum and learned his syllabus completely.



> *
> Following that when did you start with American Kenpo, then end up as Mr. Parker's shadow at seminars?
> *



I started with Mr. Parker in 1978.  I don't think I was ever his shadow......... but WAS asked on numerous occasions if I were his son (I was with him every chance I could and I always loved to wear Hawaiian shirts of which he gave me one once in a while).  I would call him and ask him what his schedule was so I could schedule him into Phoenix and where else he was going to be at and often times I flew to where he was to attend and assist him.



> *
> Then doing seminars on your own as an intro to SGM Parker?
> *



Eventually I started doing seminars as well, for my close friends and others like Brian Duffy, who eventually became a student of Mr. Parker as well.



> *
> By the way, I have a picture up in the school of you, Mr. Parker, and a bunch of Mr. Duffy's senior students at the time.  It had to be at one of the early seminars in Austin (it has to be pre-1986, because I was still a Brown Belt.)
> 
> Answer as little or as much as you want.  I can keep my questions more Applied Kenpo oriented if that is what you intended for this string? :asian: Oos,-MichaelUKS-Texas
> *



It says Q & A........ so ask what you want.  If I can't or don't want to answer a question for whatever reason that is always my option.  So fire away!
:rofl:
 :asian:


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *Why do we have right handed fighters train from a left stance predominantly (dominant hand at the rear) whilst many styles such as Kung Fu seem to have their fighters use stances such that their dominant hand is their lead hand?
> 
> Also, I'm right handed and left legged, is this rare/freakish/a problem?
> 
> Ian. *



Well you have company, I fight the same way. I'm right handed but kick left legged. I think it's cause I idolized Bill Wallace as a kid.

I like having my right hand back because it's my power hand, like a boxer. 


:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> It says Q & A........ so ask what you want.  If I can't or don't want to answer a question for whatever reason that is always my option.  So fire away!
> :rofl:
> :asian: *




I really respect the fact that you mentioned that you were demoted one rank (which you had mentioned to me before). The fact that you hung in there is one thing, but the fact that you don't try to hide it shows a lot about your character. And shows us youngsters that even the best have "things" that occur early in their career.

jb:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

... and no sarcasm intended.  I have nothing but envy for the time you had with Mr. Parker ... but then I am glad there are people like you around to pass on, not only the knowledge, but the humor and intensity that was also his.  

OOS,
-Michael
UKS-Texas
PS - you coming to town in late June?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> I really respect the fact that you mentioned that you were demoted one rank (which you had mentioned to me before). The fact that you hung in there is one thing, but the fact that you don't try to hide it shows a lot about your character. And shows us youngsters that even the best have "things" that occur early in their career.
> jb:asian: *



Well thank you Jason...... it was not a "fun" year of my life..... in addition to that I was also "banned" from fighting for 3 months because while competing in the first MONEY tournament in Arizona, (and I was smoken at that time as a competitor) a competitor hit me square in the nose and made my nose immediately bleed!  I was so furious (lack of personal control) that I grabbed the guy and started pounding him!!!!

Well they disqualified him for excessive contact....... but Mr. Hot Head got disqualified also for unsportsmanlike conduct.  (hangs head):shrug:  but I came out of that ......... a forms competitor..... since I couldn't compete in sparring...... I did forms and weapons... and placed nearly every   tournament until I was able to fight again!:rofl: 

Now I don't advocate you breaking the rules but I do wish everyone to make the best out of the hand you are delt with.  What else can I say?!!

Again, thank you for the feedback.
:asian:


----------



## Seig

Now I understand why Mr. C laughed at me when I told him about me getting my 1st Black taken away from me and not being allowed to wear a belt at all for a couple of years! (major lack of self-control).  I laugh about it now, it wasn't so funny then.  About the left hand-right hand issue.  I was born left handed, but in the mid-70's in southern Virginia, teachers were still taking pencils out of the left hand and rapping it with a ruler until you learned to write right handed.  That continued until I shattered my right hand (another lack of control issue at a young age).  I rediscovered my left hand and came to rely on it almost exclusively....until I severed the arm to the bone and almost lost it in 95.  I rediscovered my right hand.  I still write predominantly right handed but am ambi in most other matters.  I fight left hand back, right foot forward.  After I had my right knee reconstructed in 96, my right leg wouldn't hold me well when I kicked, so my right leg became my predominant leg, which was a really good thing since I am a front leg kicker.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Well thank you Jason...... it was not a "fun" year of my life..... in addition to that I was also "banned" from fighting for 3 months because while competing in the first MONEY tournament in Arizona, (and I was smoken at that time as a competitor) a competitor hit me square in the nose and made my nose immediately bleed!  I was so furious (lack of personal control) that I grabbed the guy and started pounding him!!!!
> 
> Well they disqualified him for excessive contact....... but Mr. Hot Head got disqualified also for unsportsmanlike conduct.  (hangs head):shrug:  but I came out of that ......... a forms competitor..... since I couldn't compete in sparring...... I did forms and weapons... and placed nearly every   tournament until I was able to fight again!:rofl:
> 
> Now I don't advocate you breaking the rules but I do wish everyone to make the best out of the hand you are delt with.  What else can I say?!!
> 
> Again, thank you for the feedback.
> :asian: *



Okay, so who took away your rank?  Mr Parker???  This I gotta
hear!  Did he chew you a new one?


----------



## jfarnsworth

Thank you for your stories, and making this an exceptional thread to read and reread. Your wisdom and knowledge is greatly appreciated. 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Okay, so who took away your rank?  Mr Parker???  This I gotta
> hear!  Did he chew you a new one? *



No, I was studying under Gary L. Swan at the time in Universal City Texas.  He demoted me for a year.  Then for my good behavior and continued study, it was given back.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> Thank you for your stories, and making this an exceptional thread to read and reread. Your wisdom and knowledge is greatly appreciated. Salute,Jason Farnsworth
> *



Thank You Jason for the feedback.  I'm glad you are enjoying the string.
Keep the good questions coming!

:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

Master key techs.?

1.Thundering hammers

2.5 swords

3. lone kimono

4. shielding hammer

5.locked wing

6. thrusting salute

7. parting wings

8.hooking wings

9. intellectual departure? (this one is sometimes left out of peoples curriculum now but where else does this block occur?)

10.shield and sword or repeating mace.

is this close or way off base?  too litte or too many? wrong ones?


2nd question--
 in or out of kenpo who are some people you have seen that just made you stop and think dang that person is really good, and what made you think that.

3rd

who has hit you the hardest in your life?


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> Okay, so who took away your rank?  Mr Parker???  This I gotta
> hear!  Did he chew you a new one? *



It's not my place, but I will say it wasn't Mr. Parker!!!! and "chew you a new one" isnt' really the appropriate way to approach a time which he just said wasn't an easy time for him. 

We're here to learn, not just rehash old feelings. That line of questioning does nothing positive.  Let's have some courtesy and think about how you would feel if the question was asked of you in the same manner.


jb:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *
> Let's have some courtesy and think about how you would feel if the question was asked of you in the same manner.
> *



I always do that ... but apologies nonetheless.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Thanks Jason, but I took no offense to Kirks question.... that was a long time ago and I learned the lesson..... thank you for watching out for my feelings......... you must feel close to me to feel that way.......  lol.... I appreciate it!~  (but you revealed your inner feelings luke)  

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _*
> Master key techs.?
> 
> 1.Thundering hammers
> 2.5 swords
> 3. lone kimono
> 4. shielding hammer
> 5.locked wing
> 6. thrusting salute
> 7. parting wings
> 8.hooking wings
> 9. intellectual departure? (this one is sometimes left out of peoples curriculum now but where else does this block occur?)
> 10.shield and sword or repeating mace.
> 
> is this close or way off base?  too little or too many? wrong ones?
> *



This is the Corrected List..........

1.   Thundering hammers
2.   5 swords
3.   Lone kimono
4.   Shielding hammer
5.   Repeating Mace
6.   Locked Wing
7.   Intellectual Departure*
8.   Thrusting salute
9.   Parting Wings
10. Hooking Wings

* Intellectual departure? (this one is sometimes left out of peoples curriculum now but where else does this block occur?
"if you mean this block include"... ID is taught in 1st Black for me.

Intellectual Departure 
Circle of Doom
Rotating Destruction
Unfolding the Dark
Encounter with Danger



> *
> 2nd question--
> In or out of kenpo who are some people you have seen that just made you stop and think dang that person is really good, and what made you think that.
> *



Man, that is hard, there are so many that I have seen, here is a partial list (I'm sure I will leave of someone).....

Steve LaBounty-  total martial artist, Tom Kelly - tough teacher, Skip Hancock -  the thinker, John Sepulveda - well rounded, Diane  Tanaka - best female in Kenpo, Huk Planas - engineer,  
Ralph Castellanos - meanest look and ability to back it up, Bob Liles - tough, Tom Riskas- cerebral giant, Ray Sua- great competitor, Byong Yu- smooth competitor, Joe Lewis-legendary fighter point/full contact, Mike Stone- most focused, Bill Wallace- best with the least (one leg that is difficult to get around,  Steve Sanders- the fastest,  Eric Lee-forms extraordinaire, Anthony Chan-best wu shu, Cynthia Rothrock- best female competitor (forms), Paulie Zink-flexibility king and lives his art like a monkey, Ark Wong- incredible Kung Fu master, Ted Tabura-most sharing and helpful, Benny Urquidez-king of no-fear attitude,  Wally Jay-strongest controller and hand shaker, Robert Trias-great pioneer, 
Tom Schlessinger-most logical for a Japanese stylist, Robert  Haliberton-largest studio and largest of group of great fighters in one studio, Roy Kurban- king of toppling against all odds, George Chung-most talented competitor, & Ron Marchini- slyest fighter.




> *
> 3rd Question--
> who has hit you the hardest in your life? *


[/B][/QUOTE]

This is a much easier question, but only based upon those that I have been around there are several out there that I have not had the opportunity to feel as of yet.... but I know they are out there!!!!!!! .... Ed Parker, Tom Kelly, Steve LaBounty, & Joe Lewis.

:asian:


----------



## Kempojujutsu

GD7,
 I know Elvis and his wife did alot of private lesson training with Ed Parker. Did you at any time get to meet or train with Elvis or his wife. Also to let you know I don't do any of the Parker Styles of Kenpo. My style is more Okinawan Kempo. They seem close in what they do but there are some different things also. I like to compare Kenpo notes / techniques with Kempo notes / techniques. This is the reason for asking about Cross of Destruction.
Bob:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _*
> GD7,
> I know Elvis and his wife did alot of private lesson training with Ed Parker. Did you at any time get to meet or train with Elvis or his wife. Also to let you know I don't do any of the Parker Styles of Kenpo. My style is more Okinawan Kempo. They seem close in what they do but there are some different things also. I like to compare Kenpo notes / techniques with Kempo notes / techniques. This is the reason for asking about Cross of Destruction.
> Bob:asian: *



No, I foolishly declined to go over to the Hilton one time when invited because I said ahhhh not now ....... next time.....  and shortly there after there  was no next time.

Tom Kelly was the one who taught Priscilla for a short period of time until she walked in with a black uniform...... and he told her to change to a white...... black was only for browns and black belts.  She said..."you must not know who I am.... I'm Elvis wife"!  Mr. Kelly being of course the most diplomatic person on the planet said I don't care who the hell you are these are the rules..... she walked out and soon found Mike Stone while checking out a Chuck Norris Studio.  The rest was history.

I was sitting next to her in Las Vegas at Mike Stones 4 season tournament while at the head table in the early 70's.

Well Keep on a studying ..... were cousins......LOL
:asian:


----------



## Kirk

What are some of your biggest pet peeves in EPAK today?

This one, I hope I'm not out of line here, but .... have you
ever seen Mr Parker in any physical altercations?


----------



## Klondike93

Why do the extensions start at Clutching Feathers and not with Delayed Sword?

I'm currious why none were put in for the 10 yellow belt techniques.


:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

Maybe no extentions as it was an addition later to the system? There is a large debate regarding the origins of the yellow belt and it's purpose. I've heard a few and most seem to have a similar thread through them.

The one I made up is that most students peed themselves when guys like Dennis came at them the first time on the floor.

It's not true but it's funny.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Thanks Jason, but I took no offense to Kirks question.... that was a long time ago and I learned the lesson..... thank you for watching out for my feelings......... you must feel close to me to feel that way.......  lol.... I appreciate it!~  (but you revealed your inner feelings luke)
> 
> :asian: *



Yeah, 

Your ok...lol

Now I got Kirk thinking I'm a hard*ss when that is the further thing from the truth...

jb:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *Now I got Kirk thinking I'm a hard*ss when that is the further thing from the truth...*



Nah, no worries at all.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> What are some of your biggest pet peeves in EPAK today?
> *



I think one of the biggest pep peeves I have is all the mis-information between the guys at the top.  I think they all should work together to get to know and understand each other better so they can all work more or less together v.s. who is better or knows more than who.  

"Rather than winning arguments ... I would like to see more agreements"!!

Many are trying to rewrite history and teach Kenpo as they want people to see it, rather than how and why it is like it was/is..... and enjoy all the differences and know why different people are the way they are and to acknowledge each others talents as such.



> *
> This one, I hope I'm not out of line here, but .... have you
> ever seen Mr. Parker in any physical altercations? *



No, but very close at the Internationals one year this fighter named "choo choo" was about to get his ........ handed to him.   Mr. Parker came flying down the stage and the entire arena was around this one ring with he and Mr. Parker in the middle...... I was right behind Mr. Parker,  Man was that exciting!!  But it didn't come to pass.  Thank goodness......... The guy smartly backed down......:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

Sir I don't understand what was corrected concerning the list.  Was it the order?  Does that matter? If so why?  Thank you very much for answering these questions.  Another question I have is your response concering Intellectual departure.  I understand that circle of doom, rotating destruction, unfolding the dark, and encounter with danger have been formaulated from this but why is it missing from so many peoples curriculum if it is a master key tech.?


----------



## cdhall

I just found this Thread.  This forum/site is like a City!  I may never see it all.

I heard last year that there were 9 Master key moves.  I have not heard anything else about what or how many Master Key's there are until now.

Are there Master Key moves, or techniques or both?

Is that list with Intellectual Departure, Circle of Doom... a Family Grouping?  I have never had Intellectual Departure, but I know Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction.  I was told  that Intellectual Departure was removed from the Yellow Belt Curriculum because it was too hard for beginners to get.  I was told that Mr. Parker had it in there and he is the one that also took it out.

Truly this is an Excellent Thread.


----------



## cdhall

Sir,

Can you tell the story of why some techniques have extensions/how they are grouped.  

I mean that I have heard that there are no extensions for the Brown Belt Techniques because of the way the original techniques were grouped.

I heard that Mr. Kelly had orginally intended/developed the Brown Belt material for 1st-3rd Black so that the extensions began right after Green but that someone then later re-ordered these charts after Mr. Kelly put them together.  I also heard that Mr. Kelly was not pleased with this.

I hope this is a worthy question for this thread.
:asian:


----------



## cdhall

Sir, 

Is there anyone out there who moves a lot like Mr. Parker so that by seeing them in action we may have a better understanding of how Mr. Parker looked in action?

If Mr. Parker doesn't have a "twin" then who would you say is closest?  Or is there no one because Mr. Parker encouraged everyone to tailor the art to themselves?

BTW, you having Mr. Kelly do a technique on you at Mr. Duffy's camp last year was maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen.  Those films of the Internationals that we all watched at breakfast were kind of hard to see from my table.
:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *...I have nothing but envy for the time you had with Mr. Parker...*



I had always hoped to study with Mr. Parker myself and this reminds me of a story.

I was told by one of the Black Belts at my studio around 1986 that Mr. Parker did not teach anymore and/or that he only did private lessons (which were undoubtedly prohibitively expensive).

Years later I finally switched to a first generation student of Mr. Parker and began learning EPAK.

I wish I had been able to study/see/visit Mr. Parker more often.  The only 2 times I knew he was in Texas, I was there.  I found out later from Mr. Duffy that Mr. Parker had been in or near Texas perhaps twice/year from perhaps 1985-1990.  :cuss:

I want to stress that having this type of access to Mr. Conatser whether in person or via the internet is a gift and an opportunity that should not be taken for granted.  I am very greatful to have fallen in with the group that I'm with.


----------



## Nightingale

I second that.  I've learned a lot from you, GD.


----------



## jfarnsworth

as far as I'm concerned will not be able to get enough thank you's from everyone on this website. I am very grateful Mr. C. thinks enough of each individual person that he answers the questions posted here. Well here's 1 more.  Thank you Mr. Conatser for sharing your knowledge and time with the rest of us that can't always get to Scottsdale. 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Michael Billings

Slow down, give the guy a chance to catch his breath and answer one or two of your questions before you scare him off!!  

Yea, like that could happen ... NOT!  But seriously, you may want to slow it down.  I am 90% sure Mr. Duffy knows it or has seen it, so you may want to ask him.  If not, the next time I see you I will teach you Intellectual Departure (or you can read it on my web site.)  I know "Inquiring minds, just want to know." 

Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## Scott Bonner

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *I was told  that Intellectual Departure was removed from the Yellow Belt Curriculum because it was too hard for beginners to get.  I was told that Mr. Parker had it in there and he is the one that also took it out. *



It's hard to learn, unless taught well!  Ask Huk Planas about it, and he'll give you tons of good info and make it easy to learn (or so it seemed when he covered it in a seminar I was at).  Maybe it's just because we did it a thousand times.  Then, Mr. Trejo spent the next hour showing us how to use it effectively in sparring.  Quite a good day for learning Int Dep!

The problem I see with the tech is that it breaks a rule -- in it you turn your back to the opponent.  Granted, you are doing a back kick at the time, but still you go from facing them to looking over your shoulder at them, then back to facing them.

But, once you learn it, you can see how it teaches a number of different concepts well, like one way to deal with a starting arm position that limits your defensive options, why we don't normally turn our backs, maintaining momentum while changing directions, one good way to surprise a sparring partner, and completing one of those _categories_ that so many people get irritated about.  And other stuff.  I'm sure when I'm a more advanced student I'll be able to pull more lessons to mind when I think of Int Dep.

In all, the tech has good and bad.  I'm of a mind to teach it, so people can learn from it, even if it breaks rules as a self-defense tech (after all, it ain't the only one!).


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _*
> Sir I don't understand what was corrected concerning the list.  Was it the order?  Does that matter? If so why?  Thank you very much for answering these questions.  Another question I have is your response concering Intellectual departure.  I understand that circle of doom, rotating destruction, unfolding the dark, and encounter with danger have been formaulated from this but why is it missing from so many peoples curriculum if it is a master key tech.? *



I just re-stated the main list.... most I believe were correct.
The Order is not really important.

On a revision of the Yellow Belt Techniques "Intellectual Departure" was taken off of the Yellow belt due to its sophisticated content and the decision was made to insert a simpler technique (Sword and Hammer) in its place for that level.  It was never dropped out of the system but not inserted anywhere else in any particular Belt level either, (yes, confusing I know, along with darting leaves, pinning wing, controlled wing and others) Mr. Parker had a plan in mind but we will never know what or where he was eventually going to put or do with them.  So we just keep them on our Master List of Techniques and I teach it at Brown or Black as an additional uncharted technique.
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> Why do the extensions start at Clutching Feathers and not with Delayed Sword?
> I'm currious why none were put in for the 10 yellow belt techniques.
> :asian: *




The Yellow Belt Techniques were designed to be embryonic and easy to introduce Kenpo to the beginner.  As such they were by design classified as "stand alone" techniques for a specific reason.  

As Mr. Parker logically re-adjusted the rest of the curriculum he added the extensions to the Orange Belt thru Green and expanded the system up to 3rd Black.

I use the Yellow Belt Techniques as a drill for learning how to create Extensions for my Black Belts.  Since there are no prior Extensions for these techniques Everyone can experiment and develop them as an exercise......  fun stuff.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by GouRonin_*
> The one I made up is that most students peed themselves when guys like Dennis came at them the first time on the floor.  It's not true but it's funny.
> *



Now you are going to give people the wrong impression of me!!   You didn't pee the 1st time I came at you (Your friend did and will again If I ever see him again) :rofl: 

When I saw you ....... you hugged me!

:asian:


----------



## C.E.Jackson

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Well Bob,
> 
> Each technique/drill is taught for a reason, and they are only different possibilities that one may use to escape from a given attack.  It certainly is not the only technique you could use and can be modified via knowledge of your "kenpo tools",  i.e., you could stomp the instep to loosen up the grip so as to make it easier to escape thru the knowledgeable use of the equation formula's prefix.
> 
> I don't know exactly how clearly it was explained to you.   There are several interpretations ..... here is an idea also...... you don't even need the hands to escape this hold..... you step off to your left and dip your head (as is done in the base explanation) and turn counter clockwise (without the hand grabs) and  raise up.  That alone can release the grip.  From there you can left reverse sword hand to the  groin or run.....
> 
> There are many, many different understandings of each technique to explore ask your instructor and keep working and studying the system ......... Your questions will lead you to the truth and knowledge.
> 
> :asian: *



A little like "Dancer" huh?


----------



## C.E.Jackson

First I want to say that your contributions to this forum has been great benefit to many my self included. Your generous nature in sharing your fast knowledge is very refreshing and appreciated.

You've talked about Master Key Techniques.
How about discussing techniques containing Master Key Moves that are not Master Key Techniques.

Cecil Jackson


----------



## C.E.Jackson

I notice you nave "Club Set 1" as a black belt requirement. Club set is not in the material I'm studying. 

Is this an "official" requirement of the "16" system or is it a requirement of yours?

Is there any documentation, written of video available on it's performance?

Cecil Jackson


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> A little like "Dancer" huh?
> *



Yes, that is the Tracy equivalent technique

:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

Yesterday I was practicing my orange ext.'s and noticed that during Obscure Wing has the same footwork as form 5 does with Leap Of Death. When executing O.W.  you take the opponent down face up and while executing L.O.D. the opponent is face down. Once the attacker is down is where the footwork ext. became the same. Is there a connection between the two with the new material for the next level?? OR does this happen to be a coincodence in material? Thanks.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson_*
> I notice you nave "Club Set 1" as a black belt requirement. Club set is not in the material I'm studying.
> Is this an "official" requirement of the "16" system or is it a requirement of yours?
> Is there any documentation, written of video Available on it's performance?
> Cecil Jackson
> *



Yes, it is an official Ed Parker requirement (at least for my studio prior to his passing).  I usually don't post optional things that I may require for my students only the basics.

I did post the set on KenpoNet I think they have it stored in "the flame".  I also posted it here as well some time ago you'd have to go to the archives.

:asian:


----------



## C.E.Jackson

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, it is an official Ed Parker requirement (at least for my studio prior to his passing).  I usually don't post optional things that I may require for my students only the basics.
> 
> I did post the set on KenpoNet I think they have it stored in "the flame".  I also posted it here as well some time ago you'd have to go to the archives.
> 
> :asian: *



I could'nt find it in the archives here, but I did find it in kenponet. Thanks.

Also I found in kenponet the lock flows you guys were talking about a few days ago. I knew I'd seen them somewhere!

CJ


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yesterday I was practicing my orange ext.'s and noticed that during Obscure Wing has the same footwork as form 5 does with Leap Of Death. When executing O.W.  you take the opponent down face up and while executing L.O.D. the opponent is face down. Once the attacker is down is where the footwork ext. became the same. Is there a connection between the two with the new material for the next level?? OR does this happen to be a coincidence in material? Thanks.
> Jason Farnsworth *



Man, you guys must have found the "smart pills" as Mr. Parker would say?!!  lol..... keep your eyes open and you will see more of what you found!

Good job
:asian: 

Now, maybe you undusted a bit better the story of the Full Blooded Chinese Man by the name of Tim O'Riley!:rofl:


----------



## Kirk

To me, that's so tough to understand!  My instructor says things
like that all the time, "this is just a variation of suchnsuch 
technique, see?" as he does them both .. sometimes I got "OHH!"
and other times, I'm still like "huh?".  I can never see that stuff
in the techs I learn.  It's a bit of a bummer!


----------



## Scott Bonner

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *To me, that's so tough to understand!  My instructor says things
> like that all the time, "this is just a variation of suchnsuch
> technique, see?" as he does them both .. sometimes I got "OHH!"
> and other times, I'm still like "huh?".  I can never see that stuff
> in the techs I learn.  It's a bit of a bummer! *



Yeah, I feel that way, too.  If it helps any, some connections I went "huh?" about as a yellow belt I go "Ohh!" about now.  It could be I understand better.  Or, it could be that finding connections in Kenpo is like interpreting the Bible -- anything you want to be there is there, but who, if anyone, put it there?

Two conflicting ideas:
1)  Ed Parker was a genius, making a thourough martial system with intricate detail and brilliant discoveries, which I will spend a lifetime figuring out, and
2)  Humans have infinite capacity for self-deceit.

Can I trust the connections I find, or am I stretching too far to find the info?  In the end, the ultimate master key technique, the one that covers them all, is "stop the bad guy".  Delayed Sword alone holds most of the system that I've learned so far -- stop the attack, then counter multiple times.

Or maybe the only thing that really counts is that Kenpo gives me a logical way to look for stuff, making my discoveries as valid as anyone else's, whether the information was put there by Mr. Parker or not.  If so, any connection I find is valid, providing I found it through logic.  After all, that's how Mr. Parker found everything out in the first place, right?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _*
> Or maybe the only thing that really counts is that Kenpo gives me a logical way to look for stuff, making my discoveries as valid as anyone else's, whether the information was put there by Mr. Parker or not.
> 
> If so, any connection I find is valid, providing I found it through logic.  After all, that's how Mr. Parker found everything out in the first place, right? *



Our Awesome System [EPAK if taught correctly] first teaches us all the basics to motion, then teaches the awareness of your body actions and how to control them, then examines potential attacks and conditions of today's environment and offers a multitude of possible responses to form a knowledge base from which to logically draw from if ever a physical encounter occurs.

All "connections" or discoveries, parallels, tips, unique, interesting points, tweaks, and so on are there to either be taught or ran upon........  You have to ask yourself a question..... was this system this way by ACCIDENT OR DESIGN?  My answer is that ....... there is WAYYYYYYYYYY to much stuff that puzzles together for it to be by accident......  no go hunt and find!

From there it's all yours baby!

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, that is the Tracy equivalent technique
> 
> :asian: *



Bout time you gave me some credit!:soapbox:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Now you are going to give people the wrong impression of me!!   You didn't pee the 1st time I came at you (Your friend did and will again If I ever see him again) :rofl:
> 
> When I saw you ....... you hugged me!
> 
> :asian: *



I never got hugged like that! I got beaten , unmercifully, and was told to like it!:wah:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Bout time you gave me some credit!:soapbox:
> *



Not quite..... it was taken from Ed Parker in the first place..... silly!

 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> I never got hugged like that! I got beaten , unmercifully, and was told to like it!:wah: *



Now STOP that!  He never got picked up in a LIMO like YOU did ........ either!!
:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Now STOP that!  He never got picked up in a LIMO like YOU did ........ either!!
> :asian: *



Hmmmmm, very true, and I'll be forever grateful for getting the "Elvis" treatment, but, was that Limo on the "Hot, Sheet?"


----------



## Goldendragon7

if you keep it up you are going to be on the hot seat....... I have an egg warming up for you................ 

:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *if you keep it up you are going to be on the hot seat....... I have an egg warming up for you................
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



Ok, I'll go to the back of the class , and work on Short 1!


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, that is the Tracy equivalent technique
> 
> :asian: *





> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Bout time you gave me some credit!:soapbox: *



These boards are so great for expanding your horizons.  I always thought "Tracy" was used as a Qualifier.  Not a compliment!
:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

CD....... how could you........ 

He's our friendly neighborhood Armadillo Man!!!

:rofl:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Bout time you gave me some credit!:soapbox: *



Mr. Castillo,

You mentioned on your site that you were introduced to the Tracy's in 1976. How far did you get? I noticed you got your Black in 3 years (1993-1996) from Mr. Tracy in Kentucky, how was that experience?

jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

He was drunk!:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *CD....... how could you........
> 
> He's our friendly neighborhood Armadillo Man!!!
> 
> :rofl: *



I am the "Rodney Dangerfield" of Kenpo, no respect!


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> Mr. Castillo,
> 
> You mentioned on your site that you were introduced to the Tracy's in 1976. How far did you get? I noticed you got your Black in 3 years (1993-1996) from Mr. Tracy in Kentucky, how was that experience?
> 
> jb:asian: *



The first time, I got to Purple, them moved away, and was unable to find in any Kenpo in my new locale.

The second time I got back into it, I pretty much had to relearn nearly all the stuff again. The testing under Master Al was a pleasant expereince, about 3 hours straight. Luckily for me, I was so pumped, that I had few problems, if any.  :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Mr. Tracy fell asleep ........


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *He was drunk!:rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



I was not!:drinkbeer


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Mr. Tracy fell asleep ........
> *



No way, he watched me like a Hawk! And I was so awesome that the Golden One would've stood up and clapped for me!:boing2:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Stay on target............. Stay on target.......
:xwing:


----------



## RCastillo

It's been said that all styles have weaknesses, what weakness does Kenpo have?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> It's been said that all styles have weaknesses, what weakness does Kenpo have? *



I believe one of the weaknesses of Kenpo is that the current updates have not been available to everybody over a period of time so  we have many different ideas from different eras that all boil down to good Kenpo at that time...... however Ed Parker was one to always want to "keep current", but many left at various stages of the evolution and thus have missed out on much of his newer developments and adjustments.  Today - slowly but surely many are realizing this and updating their material when they find good information.

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> I am the "Rodney Dangerfield" of Kenpo, no respect! *



I'm sorry Mr. Castillo.  I have much respect for you.  Since Mr. C brought you to camp, you must be most worthy of my respect and I assure you that you have it.

But aside from bashing on TKD (as I explained in another thread somewhere), bashing on Tracy Kenpo :shrug: is the next natural inclination of a trash-talking Kenpo student.  Probably for reasons similar to what I described in the TKD post.  

Oops.  You study TKD and Tracy Kenpo.  Man.  I don't know how to get out of this one.   

Seriously, I was very glad to meet you, sir and you seemed very nice and if you were not of high quality I don't think Mr. C would have brought you to camp.  I'll try to earn a "feather" or something from you before October.  I hope you are coming back.  I take it this was the forum you and Mr. C were referring to when you said that you had "met" on the web?  Many respects.
:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> 
> I'm sorry Mr. Castillo.  I have much respect for you.  Since Mr. C brought you to camp, you must be most worthy of my respect and I assure you that you have it.
> 
> But aside from bashing on TKD (as I explained in another thread somewhere), bashing on Tracy Kenpo :shrug: is the next natural inclination of a trash-talking Kenpo student.  Probably for reasons similar to what I described in the TKD post.
> 
> Oops.  You study TKD and Tracy Kenpo.  Man.  I don't know how to get out of this one.
> 
> Seriously, I was very glad to meet you, sir and you seemed very nice and if you were not of high quality I don't think Mr. C would have brought you to camp.  I'll try to earn a "feather" or something from you before October.  I hope you are coming back.  I take it this was the forum you and Mr. C were referring to when you said that you had "met" on the web?  Many respects.
> :asian: *



Thanks for your support, compliments. I hope to come back to the next one. I hope to have a few feathers myself from DC when October comes around!:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

I will be off the air for a while due to my body being transplanted to Las Vegas for Speakmans Kenpo Camp this weekend.

But Monday I will be back on the air.
:asian:


----------



## Turner

Sir, I am having a little trouble understanding the contour concept of threading. 

Do you use the contour of your opponent's joint as a guide for your weapon to hit its target.. I.e. if your opponent has his arm partially chambered so that you use his elbow joint to guide a punch to the target.. doesn't seem plausible...

or

Do you use your own joint as the point of contact as you are guiding your natural weapon to its target? i.e. Your assailant grabs your lapel and you place your elbow on his arm and keep contact to guide your hand to his temple.

or

Is it something else. If so, what?

Thanks in advance,
Doug


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Turner _*Sir, I am having a little trouble understanding the contour concept of threading.
> 
> Do you use the contour of your opponent's joint as a guide for your weapon to hit its target.. I.e. if your opponent has his arm partially chambered so that you use his elbow joint to guide a punch to the target.. doesn't seem plausible...
> 
> or
> 
> Do you use your own joint as the point of contact as you are guiding your natural weapon to its target? i.e. Your assailant grabs your lapel and you place your elbow on his arm and keep contact to guide your hand to his temple.
> 
> or
> 
> Is it something else. If so, what?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Doug *



Either
:asian:


----------



## Turner

Much appreciated, I guess I wasn't all that confused.

... now for one that really does confuse me...

The EPAK secret codes, rKtsKB5aP et. all.(Freestyle Techniques) I work with codes for a living but even with Infinate Insights vol. 5 explaining it, it's beyond me. I'm hoping it is just difficult because I'm making it difficult, but having it worded differently might help.

Thanks in advance,

Doug


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *Much appreciated, I guess I wasn't all that confused.
> 
> ... now for one that really does confuse me...
> 
> The EPAK secret codes, rKtsKB5aP et. all.(Freestyle Techniques) I work with codes for a living but even with Infinate Insights vol. 5 explaining it, it's beyond me. I'm hoping it is just difficult because I'm making it difficult, but having it worded differently might help.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Doug *



These look confusing but are actually easy....... the ones you have above are out of the Purple Belt group

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Our Awesome System [EPAK if taught correctly] first teaches us all the basics to motion, then teaches the awareness of your body actions and how to control them, then examines potential attacks and conditions of today's environment and offers a multitude of possible responses to form a knowledge base from which to logically draw from if ever a physical encounter occurs.
> 
> All "connections" or discoveries, parallels, tips, unique, interesting points, tweaks, and so on are there to either be taught or ran upon........  You have to ask yourself a question..... was this system this way by ACCIDENT OR DESIGN?  My answer is that ....... there is WAYYYYYYYYYY to much stuff that puzzles together for it to be by accident......  no go hunt and find!
> 
> From there it's all yours baby!
> 
> :asian: *


Mr C and I have discussed jsut this pretty extensively.  I learned so much form it that I decided to ude it as a teaching tool.  Last night I had my students (mostly upper belts) break up into groups of 2 or 3 and pick any one of the yellow belt techniques (except Captured Twigs or Sword and Hammer) and tear it apart and analyze it.  I gave them half an hour with it and then we discussed and disected it as a group.  I think they were amazed at how little they actually understood the techniques until we did this.


----------



## Michael Billings

1.  The difference between:
      a. Hopping
      b. Jumping
      c. Leaping

Leaping - Is it one foot leaving the floor, then the other; one lands, then the other as in Leaping Crane?

Hopping - Is it akin to a skip? Only one foot has contact with the floor, and you "hop" on it only; as in the gauging hop in Hopping Crane?

Jumping - Both feel leave the floor simultaneously and both land simultaneously?  I get to this one by process of elimination only.

I have never been "taught" the difference, of course this is probably my own fault due to my not asking the right people at the right time.  None-the-less, am I on the right track here?

Thanks,
-Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _*
> 
> 1.  The difference between:
> a. Hopping
> b. Jumping
> c. Leaping
> Leaping - Is it one foot leaving the floor, then the other; one lands, then the other as in Leaping Crane?
> Hopping - Is it akin to a skip? Only one foot has contact with the floor, and you "hop" on it only; as in the gauging hop in Hopping Crane?
> Jumping - Both feel leave the floor simultaneously and both land simultaneously?  I get to this one by process of elimination only.
> I have never been "taught" the difference, of course this is probably my own fault due to my not asking the right people at the right time.  None-the-less, am I on the right track here?
> Thanks,-Michael
> *



Close but no cigar......

Hopping - Is one foot has contact with the floor (lets say the left foot), and you "hop" or leave the ground and land on the same (left foot).

Skip - is the same as hop except you "drag" the base foot along the ground, instead of leaving the ground.

Jump - is one foot leaving the ground (say cocking up your left foot - [right is on the ground] and jumping onto the other (left)  foot with now the right leg cocked up as in Leaping Crane...... (should be Jumping Crane actually if based on the footwork).

Leap - Both feet leave the floor simultaneously and both land simultaneously as in Leap of Death.

:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Muchos Gras,

Have fun at the Speakman's camp.  I'll be thinking about yall.  Give my regard to Sigung LaBounty and Sibok Kelly if they are there and any UKS guys you see, we know Bryan Hawkins won't be there, but some of the others may make it (Bob Liles?)

Oos,
-MB


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I will be off the air for a while due to my body being transplanted to Las Vegas for Speakmans Kenpo Camp this weekend.
> 
> But Monday I will be back on the air.
> :asian: *



Can't wait to hear a report about it!


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Close but no cigar......
> 
> Hopping - Is one foot has contact with the floor (lets say the left foot), and you "hop" or leave the ground and land on the same (left foot).
> 
> Skip - is the same as hop except you "drag" the base foot along the ground, instead of leaving the ground.
> 
> Jump - is one foot leaving the ground (say cocking up your left foot - [right is on the ground] and jumping onto the other (left)  foot with now the right leg cocked up as in Leaping Crane...... (should be Jumping Crane actually if based on the footwork).
> 
> Leap - Both feet leave the floor simultaneously and both land simultaneously as in Leap of Death.
> 
> :asian: *



Ugh, this stuff is gonna kill me!  The reason I stopped studying
TKD is because I felt I was too big for all that jumping.  The
jumping front snap kick was KILLING ME!  I started in kenpo
because I was told that it was an art "for anyone".  Now there's
gonna be MORE jumping?  Oy, ve.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> Can't wait to hear a report about it! *



Don't forget that I have a thread under "Organizations and Events" for this specific purpose.
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=2231&referrerid=391
:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

Not all American Kenpoists are stagnent. I was a seminar a while ago where they were discussing Zach Whitson's _"Counter Point_ theory. I was very impressed.


----------



## Klondike93

I don't think you'll be doing any jumping like if you were in TKD.

Unless your instructor did some TKD and wants to incorporate some of the kicks into it.


:asian:


----------



## Dominic Jones

Hi Dennis

The "H" in for example B1aH.  Do you for the last move-

1. do a lead outward hand palm heel to the shoulder to keep the opponent in check?

2.  Do you do an lead hand, inward palm heel to the face?

Cheers Dominic.

PS. Thank you for your detailed answers


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Dominic Jones _*
> Hi Dennis
> The "H" in for example B1aH.
> Do you for the last move-
> 1. do a lead outward hand palm heel to the shoulder to keep the
> opponent in check?
> 2.  Do you do an lead hand, inward palm heel to the face?
> Cheers Dominic.PS. Thank you for your detailed answers
> *



Neither, I use a left inward (fingers out - horizontal) Heel Palm Jab to the body as my base technique.  You could use it to the face, but if you did B1a you have already hit the face once...... so we try to vary targets.

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

What is a "simple" definition of Kenpo for those that are unfamiliar with it as you try to explain it to them?:asian:


----------



## Rob_Broad

I was going to ask why is the sky blue, but I already know that answer.  So my question is very simple what is more important to a practioner, Balance or Power?  I already think I have the answer for this but I would love to see what some others think.


----------



## RCastillo

I would go with Balance. It would seem we would all have a certain degree of power. Some more, due to their mass and how they apply it. Others, based on their finnese(hope that's spelled right)will be able to generate it differently?

I would think, that if a person is Balanced, they will be able to use their attributes in a way that best fits them, and get the most out of it. One may also say that if that was true, we would be incomplete, but can we really be the "complete" artist/practitioner?

Anyway, Thanks for listening!
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _*
> What is more important to a practioner, Balance or Power?
> *



A practitioner needs both!  However, if I were to choose one before the other it would be to develop Balance.  For without "Balance" you will always have limited power.

Good Balance is a product of practice and proper body alignment.  When your body is aligned properly it is able to function (with time and practice) at maximum proficiency.  Power will become automatic if desired and focused upon when good balance is not constantly interrupting your movements.

Ricardo...... one flight feather!!

:asian:


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *I was going to ask why is the sky blue, but I already know that answer.  So my question is very simple what is more important to a practioner, Balance or Power?  I already think I have the answer for this but I would love to see what some others think. *



Interesting inquiry-   they work together and independently.  If you look at power as being typed by 3 (intermittent, dynamic, and passive) passive doesn't require balance but (depending on circumstance) may rely heavily on- say momentum and the impact of strike to restore balance.   Balance with rotation gets power... I don't teach power.   Accuracy is more important than raw power along with timing.   Power is too far down the list to compare with balance and real power is a cummulative effect anyways.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *What is a "simple" definition of Kenpo for those that are unfamiliar with it as you try to explain it to them?:asian: *


Literature in motion.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> What is a "simple" definition of Kenpo for those that are unfamiliar with it as you try to explain it to them?:asian: *



I say ......... Kenpo is a modern American System of the Martial Arts Developed by Ed Parker using Logic and practicality as it applies to today's society, rather than the historical traditional approach.

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Literature in motion. *



What ??? You must want me to get jumped on by a bunch of gang members if you want me to tell them that!


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> A practitioner needs both!  However, if I were to choose one before the other it would be to develop Balance.  For without "Balance" you will always have limited power.
> 
> Good Balance is a product of practice and proper body alignment.  When your body is aligned properly it is able to function (with time and practice) at maximum proficiency.  Power will become automatic if desired and focused upon when good balance is not constantly interrupting your movements.
> 
> Ricardo...... one flight feather!!
> 
> :asian: *



Cool, but I keep gaining a feather, then, losing a feather. Let's start negotiating here so I can keep what I earn!


----------



## jfarnsworth

I have an idea for you.  Don't let Mr.Conatser take them back from you. 
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *I have an idea for you.  Don't let Mr.Conatser take them back from you.
> Jason Farnsworth *



I don't fare very well running into giant Linebackers from The Cardinals!


----------



## jfarnsworth

Mr.C. hit me pretty hard one time. I could tell that there was a whole lot more left on it as he was teaching the technique, not really looking at me and discussing it with the rest of the class. YIKES. I'm just a little guy too. I guess I need to do some more weight lifting.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Mr.C. hit me pretty hard one time. I could tell that there was a whole lot more left on it as he was teaching the technique, not really looking at me and discussing it with the rest of the class. YIKES. I'm just a little guy too. I guess I need to do some more weight lifting.
> Jason Farnsworth *



Yep, he hit me at camp back in October, right in the throat, had trouble eating lunch that day! But, I forced myself to do it


----------



## WilliamTLear

Mr. Conatser wouldn't hit you in the throat unless he meant it... well... uh... er... lets not assume that he meant it anyway.

Laughing Out Loud,
Billy Lear
:fart:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> What ??? You must want me to get jumped on by a bunch of gang members if you want me to tell them that! *


That assumes they know what literature means


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Yep, he hit me at camp back in October, right in the throat, had trouble eating lunch that day! But, I forced myself to do it *


He was probably getting even in advance.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> I say ......... Kenpo is a modern American System of the Martial Arts Developed by Ed Parker using Logic and practicality as it applies to today's society, rather than the historical traditional approach.
> 
> :asian: *



I get the feeling that eventually I will be admonished to quit quoting Mr. Speakman, but I always try to attribute my sources.

Mr. Conatser has a great answer but an explanation that I often use comes from my 1st or 2nd Seminar with Mr. Speakman:

"The goal of Kenpo is to do the most amount of damage in the least amount of time, with the least amount of effort."


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> He was probably getting even in advance. *



Geez, I never thought about that. That means I owe him one!:snipe2:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> 
> I get the feeling that eventually I will be admonished to quit quoting Mr. Speakman, but I always try to attribute my sources.
> 
> Mr. Conatser has a great answer but an explanation that I often use comes from my 1st or 2nd Seminar with Mr. Speakman:
> 
> "The goal of Kenpo is to do the most amount of damage in the least amount of time, with the least amount of effort." *



For once, a serious question here. If I gave such an explanation, don't you think people might be taken ababck, turned off by a definition like that? Just curious.:asian:


----------



## Seig

We'd say, damn Texans, especially the Tracys, too violent! Seriously you are right.  Things like that coming form a celebrity are ok to the general public. When it comes from a non-famous MA instructor it sounds like sociopathic behavior.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *We'd say, damn Texans, especially the Tracys, too violent! Seriously you are right.  Things like that coming form a celebrity are ok to the general public. When it comes from a non-famous MA instructor it sounds like sociopathic behavior. *



I think if you look,  you'll see that was one of my most brief posts.  I may have made a mistake consciously trying to be so brief. 

If you were trying to sell them painting, or dance, or Tae Bo lessons, I think there would a potential issue.  But if you are talking to someone about "What type of Martial Art is Kenpo?" Then I think you are OK.

I also often then say that we have an Equation Formula and I may discuss for example how 5 Swords can be you slapping them stupid, or you striking the Radial nerve on your way to poke their eyes and then break their neck.  We have options.  Aikido I think seeks to restrain the agressor and admonish him to see the error of his ways (there is a good post in the Aikido thread where a guy did this to someone who attacked him with a bottle while he was on duty one night in a 7-11) but as Mr. Speakman said, I have to paraphrase a bit "... if you are on the street, and some guy is coming at you whacked out on Crack, with a high-pain threshold, then sometimes you have to cripple them to stop them..." and it is in this type of situation, when a layman might think to himself "Man, I wish I knew Karate" that knowing Kenpo may save your life.

So, it depends on the circumstances.  But that was a phrase I do indeed use in the course of discussing Kenpo.  I also discuss how it is a Science, how the Equation Formula gives you options, how the system was created in the 50's based on what Mr. Parker knew about the street and that it was continually revised to stay current and effective until his death in 1990.

So maybe if you guys were talking in the mall and I overheard you and dropped by and said "...most amount of damage, least amount of effort..." and walked off, that would be one thing.  

But to communicate how Kenpo can save your butt, how it will, perhaps like Aikido, use the attacker against himself (borrowed force and so on), how when there is an emergency in the Parking Lot as someone attacks you as you and your wife and kids get in the car (especially if you see more than one person) it can allow you to drop one attacker as you fly into and perhaps even demorallize the others, I think the quote works pretty good.

I don't watch much of the Mixed Martial Arts stuff, but I still think that all things being equal, in any altercation, Kenpo can get you out faster, with less chance of you being hurt, than any other system.  Regard for the safety of the attacker notwithstanding.

I hope that helps clarify my point.  As Mr. LaBounty is fond of saying, Kenpo is a "Martial Art."   And he likes to emphasize "Martial." Perhaps when explaining I lean too much in that direction. I also think that if you do forms and sets for 30mins, you have a better system than TaeBo and that therefore Kenpo has the basis for a great "Cardio Karate" program as well.  It's all in there.  But if someone is pressing me, they usually want to know why Kenpo is better for self-defense than "Brand X" and I think more damage/less time/less effort is a good answer to that question.
:asian:


----------



## Seig

I must preface my comments here with this, this is not a personal attack! please do not think it is.  I have been in the Martial Arts a considerable amount of time.   When you are talking to someone who is uneducated about what we do, do NOT go into so much depth, you will overwhelm and scare them.  Instead of saying "cause the most amount of damage with the least amount of effort" you can phrase it like "to defend yourself in the most effective manner, with the least amount of force".  Now, granted SOME people like the violence of the world today and will react to what you said well.  But what about the Church going mother of 5?  Or the Police Officer that wants to enhance his training? See what I mean?  Like my Daddy always said, "Never miss a good opportunity to shut up."  And what that means is, once you get the point across, shut up and let them ask questions or you will, in fact, oversell/overwhelm them and loose their interest.  The one thing all of us here have in common, regardless of style, is a passion for the Martial Arts.  Not everyone has that passion and some have to be brought around slowly.  I stand by what I said earlier, I did not mis-interpret you.  the other thing you have to consider, as an instructor, you are responsible for the actions of your students.  You, Mr C and I can have a lengthy conversation on this, and you make valid points,


----------



## GouRonin

I can't remember the last time I was attacked by a crazy crack-high guy on the street with a high pain threshold. Or even the last time I had someone attack me in the parking lot as my wife and kids got into the car.

In fact these scenarios, should they happen, should make you wonder how you missed all the indicators of it going to happen in the first place.

Joe Average is going to use his martial arts skills in situations like this maybe once in a lifetime. Often martial arts schools and instructors use these situations to justify the training they do or to scare students into joining/staying at their schools. These situations they come up with, sheesh. 

With few exceptions the people on this board will not be pro fighters. Will not be in S.W.A.T. situations, will not be having to face down crack users etc etc.

Don't get me wrong. I like violence. But I also know when it's coming and where and why etc etc. Because I try to look for it. It doesn't mean I will join in. If I'm backed into a corner by mr crackhead then obviously I have to wonder what kinda dork I am to let myself get there.

On the other hand I wonder how you can think that forms and sets will do you better than Tae Bo? I'm no Tae Bo fan but it's got better Cardio than forms and sets. In fact, if broken down properly it's got the same applied fighting motion. Just because they might not know how or why they are doing it doesn't mean they can't learn to and incorperate it into their work out. In fact, I've seen lots of karateka who have no idea what their own forms and sets are about. Perhaps both can be broken down and learned to equal or perhaps more in terms of a martial art.

While I again say I am not a Tae Bo fan the resulting crowds that it has drawn to the martial arts should tell you something. People might start off at a TB class and then progress into a more traditional martial art.

Just my 3 cents.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I can't remember the last time I was attacked by a crazy crack-high guy on the street with a high pain threshold. Or even the last time I had someone attack me in the parking lot as my wife and kids got into the car.
> 
> In fact these scenarios, should they happen, should make you wonder how you missed all the indicators of it going to happen in the first place.
> 
> Joe Average is going to use his martial arts skills in situations like this maybe once in a lifetime . . .
> 
> With few exceptions the people on this board will not be pro fighters. Will not be in S.W.A.T. situations, will not be having to face down crack users etc etc.
> 
> Don't get me wrong . . .
> Just my 3 cents. *



(* First, an apology if my post upsets or bothers anyone. *)

Hey Gou,

I agree with you on this issue. The last time I
dealt with a Crack head who was high? that felt
no pain, was years and years ago when I was
bouncing. I helped the Police officer I had
called in to deal with the problem when he
was on the ground losing and also getting bit by
this crack head guy. His wrist broke when I had
him pinned and he lifted me of the ground with
just one arm. Scary. But, truly how man people
see this. I know Police officers that have never
run into this. 

I agree that the good martial artist would have 
seen the situation before hand and avoided it.

How ever the person enters into Martial Arts
is irrelevant. The fact that they are their
for some reason is what counts.

In My opinion.

Rich  :asian: 

PS: Gou I will try not to make it a habit to agree
with you that often.


----------



## brianhunter

Here is my question, howcome you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered??


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I must preface my comments here with this, this is not a personal attack! please do not think it is.  I have been in the Martial Arts a considerable amount of time.   When you are talking to someone who is uneducated about what we do, do NOT go into so much depth, you will overwhelm and scare them.  Instead of saying "cause the most amount of damage with the least amount of effort" you can phrase it like "to defend yourself in the most effective manner, with the least amount of force".  Now, granted SOME people like the violence of the world today and will react to what you said well.  But what about the Church going mother of 5?  Or the Police Officer that wants to enhance his training? See what I mean?  Like my Daddy always said, "Never miss a good opportunity to shut up."  And what that means is, once you get the point across, shut up and let them ask questions or you will, in fact, oversell/overwhelm them and loose their interest.  The one thing all of us here have in common, regardless of style, is a passion for the Martial Arts.  Not everyone has that passion and some have to be brought around slowly.  I stand by what I said earlier, I did not mis-interpret you.  the other thing you have to consider, as an instructor, you are responsible for the actions of your students.  You, Mr C and I can have a lengthy conversation on this, and you make valid points, *



Email is a hard thing to use to convey a message. Doug is pretty sharp (both of the Dougs are actually), I don't think he'd break off into a mini-seminar on what Kenpo is for the off the street person. I think the definition he is giving is what he might say to white belts that are already in class and say "hey Mr. Brown belt how would you define this Kenpo stuff we're doing". Of course I could be wrong. 

Most of the time it takes longer to explain something when you don't know what your talking about or if your using other folks' words. My thing (and I'm not an instructor) is that explaining Kenpo will never do it justice. If you want to come and see, cool. If you like what you see and hear, cool. If you don't and I never see you again, cool. If you never get up the nerve to actually come over and check it out (which is often the case), that's cool too. 

jb :asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I can't remember the last time I was attacked by a crazy crack-high guy on the street with a high pain threshold. Or even the last time I had someone attack me in the parking lot as my wife and kids got into the car.
> 
> In fact these scenarios, should they happen, should make you wonder how you missed all the indicators of it going to happen in the first place.
> 
> Joe Average is going to use his martial arts skills in situations like this maybe once in a lifetime. Often martial arts schools and instructors use these situations to justify the training they do or to scare students into joining/staying at their schools. These situations they come up with, sheesh.
> 
> With few exceptions the people on this board will not be pro fighters. Will not be in S.W.A.T. situations, will not be having to face down crack users etc etc.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I like violence. But I also know when it's coming and where and why etc etc. Because I try to look for it. It doesn't mean I will join in. If I'm backed into a corner by mr crackhead then obviously I have to wonder what kinda dork I am to let myself get there.
> 
> On the other hand I wonder how you can think that forms and sets will do you better than Tae Bo? I'm no Tae Bo fan but it's got better Cardio than forms and sets. In fact, if broken down properly it's got the same applied fighting motion. Just because they might not know how or why they are doing it doesn't mean they can't learn to and incorperate it into their work out. In fact, I've seen lots of karateka who have no idea what their own forms and sets are about. Perhaps both can be broken down and learned to equal or perhaps more in terms of a martial art.
> 
> While I again say I am not a Tae Bo fan the resulting crowds that it has drawn to the martial arts should tell you something. People might start off at a TB class and then progress into a more traditional martial art.
> 
> Just my 3 cents. *



Gou,

In this case I don't entirely agree with you. Without going into discussion on class and social issues. Some neighborhoods in the US are pretty bad and drugs are very bad in the US. And, Sometime people don't have a choice of where they can afford to live. Larger cities like Houston, Los Angeles, New York have predators that prey on people at night and during the day all over the city. And for all my training and awareness of my environment I still think that in a given situation someone might catch me slippin so I prepare and condition for that. To say without a doubt its someone's fault if they get caught off guard is a lot like blaming the victim. Isn't Kenpo designed to take into account room for error?

"Often martial arts schools and instructors use these situations to justify the training they do or to scare students into joining/staying at their schools. "

In the big cities you don't have to do that. Let them go home and watch the evening news for a week. 

The Tae Bo thing is a funny topic. I think their workout is great and very effective in weight loss, but you can still get the same kind of workout doing a combination of basics and forms in Kenpo. The only difference when they get into an actual fight is that they have to turn on the music before they can actually get started...:rofl: 

jb:asian: 

p.s. I respect Billy Blanks, he took what he accomplished in the square and made the most of it.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Gou,
> In this case I don't entirely agree with you. *



Kewl. You stated your reasons and some of them are pretty darn good.


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *PS: Gou I will try not to make it a habit to agree
> with you that often.*



Like I always say, even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes. Now you see the burden it is to be me.
 
_**dramatic sigh**_


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> Like I always say, even a monkey falls out of a tree sometimes. Now you see the burden it is to be me.
> 
> **dramatic sigh** *


Try not to climb so high!:rofl:


----------



## Kempojujutsu

GD7,
Welcome Back, how was your trip.
Bob:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Try not to climb so high!:rofl: *



Luckily for me, I'm afraid of heights!


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *GD7,
> Welcome Back, how was your trip.
> Bob:asian: *



He's  broke, so start passing the hat around. High rank first!


----------



## Seig

going to do now that he has gambled away your school?


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *going to do now that he has gambled away your school? *



Guess I'll send in my membership for the IKKO, now that Dennis "Gotti" Conatser has taken over!


----------



## Seig

is nearly complete!:jedi1:


----------



## brianhunter

Can anyone answer my question???? I would appreciate it.


----------



## Rob_Broad

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Can anyone answer my question???? I would appreciate it. *



Brian

Many people train under Larry Tatum through his school nd video program.  He is often at many of the major events.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Here is my question, howcome you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered?? *



Your in Wichita, if your one of Mr. Kelly's students ask him or another Senior Kenpo instructor via personal e-mail. 

jb:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Here is my question, howcome you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered?? *



I think it's because there's just not a lot of his students here ...
yet.  By NOT mentioning him, it doesn't mean anyone doesn't
think highly of him.  Also, check older threads, his name has come
up on occasion.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Why is he never mentioned or considered?? *



I think the big deal is that he parted with Mr. Parker in the 80's on bad terms and also that his Panther videos promoted him as a/the Kenpo Master when Mr. Parker was alive (I think) and that didn't seem right.
:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

...people may talk sh*t about him but no one ever talks sh*t about his Kenpo.


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

GD7,

American Kenpo is so specific when it comes to definitions and terminology.  How come it is not specific when it comes to targeting, i.e. pressure points?   It would seem that this would be its logical conclusion.  I don't want this to get into a discussion about SL4 because most people in Kenpo are not privy to it, and frankly I don't want to hear another thread about what is lacking in "Motion Kenpo."  What is you experience with this and what are your opinions concerning pressure points and fajing and the more mysterious/phony/esoteric parts of the arts?  Did you have any discussions with Parker on this subject?


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *...people may talk sh*t about him but no one ever talks sh*t about his Kenpo. *



Yes.  I've heard that he is good. And he is FAST.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

quote: Originally posted by brianhunter 

Here is my question, howcome you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered??  

Hey Brian, how ya' doin?
  Damn surprised to find you on the forum, when I read your post the other day I knew it was you.    I hope you enjoyed some of the info we threw at you a couple of weeks ago and didn't get overwhelmed, I have a tendency of doing that to people.    

I think alot of the reason for Larry not being mentioned much here is because most here haven't seen him in the same light as yourself, or at all.    With that said, maybe they should.    I have found him to be the most knowledgeable, and nicest person I have ever trained with.     And he's alot of fun on the airplane, we had a ton of laughs on the way there and back.     I've been with the man and loyal to him for 12 years now, and have never regretted my decision to go with him.    I've let him know up front that if he should do me wrong (don't think he ever will) that I'm outta there, and he's good with that.   I don't think you need to get stupid or even cultish when you're dedicated to someone like him, or get fanatical about your appreciation for your instructor.       Oh well, enough ranting.

Hope you're still kicking and having a good time in the art.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> I don't think you need to get stupid or even cultish when you're dedicated to someone like him, or get fanatical about your appreciation for your instructor[/B]



I agree ... but there's also nothing wrong in saying "I think my
instructor is the best out there".  Or one of the best.   My 
instructor isn't near the rank of you Clyde, let alone Mr Tatum. 
But he's damned knowledgeable, and a GREAT instructor.  In all
my m.a. classes prior to taking kenpo ... k, I was gonna go on 
a rant, but *whew*, I caught myself.  Idol worship? HELL NO,
Admiration and huge amounts of respect?  Definitely .. and there's
nothing wrong with saying so.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *quote: Originally posted by brianhunter
> 
> Here is my question, howcome you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered??
> 
> Hey Brian, how ya' doin?
> Damn surprised to find you on the forum, when I read your post the other day I knew it was you.    I hope you enjoyed some of the info we threw at you a couple of weeks ago and didn't get overwhelmed, I have a tendency of doing that to people.
> 
> I think alot of the reason for Larry not being mentioned much here is because most here haven't seen him in the same light as yourself, or at all.    With that said, maybe they should.    I have found him to be the most knowledgeable, and nicest person I have ever trained with.     And he's alot of fun on the airplane, we had a ton of laughs on the way there and back.     I've been with the man and loyal to him for 12 years now, and have never regretted my decision to go with him.    I've let him know up front that if he should do me wrong (don't think he ever will) that I'm outta there, and he's good with that.   I don't think you need to get stupid or even cultish when you're dedicated to someone like him, or get fanatical about your appreciation for your instructor.       Oh well, enough ranting.
> 
> Hope you're still kicking and having a good time in the art.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde *



Yikes, Clyde is in da house!


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Yikes, Clyde is in da house!*



That damn desert yeti follows me everywhere. I just can't shake him.


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *quote: Originally posted by brianhunter
> 
> 
> Hey Brian, how ya' doin?
> Damn surprised to find you on the forum, when I read your post the other day I knew it was you.    I hope you enjoyed some of the info we threw at you a couple of weeks ago and didn't get overwhelmed, I have a tendency of doing that to people.
> 
> 
> Clyde,
> Good to see you also, To be honest with you I was about to give up Kenpo untill I met you guys. I have had a pretty rough experience with Kenpo and I had about had enough. I will not go into all the specifics because those are really for me to deal with. It did my heart good though, I FELT it for kenpo for the first time in a long time and Clyde you where a big part of that, your passionate about American Kenpo its something to strive for!! keep "professing" man and hope we cross paths again soon!!
> 
> 
> Brian Hunter*


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

Hey Brian, once bitten by the Kenpo bug, you 'll never loose the flame although it may not burn as brightly as it had.     I have an ability to get most people as excited as I am about the art again and revive that flame to a bonfire (at least that's what it is in me), something Larry taught me how to do years ago with his passion for the art.     I hope it doesn't go back to the flicker, and if it should start, I'll give you my phone # to contact me for questions if you have them or just chat (by the way, if you have a webcam you can get me on Netmeeting and have a cyber seminar).    I'm glad you're doing well and reinvesting in yourself in the art, and yes, I will keep "professing" for people such as yourself in my endeavors to promulgate EPAK.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## jeffkyle

I am quite impressed with Mr. Tatum.  I have seen him move and have even felt it.  He has an explosive power that is very impressive.  He is a quite a nice guy and what i consider a good martial artist.  I am glad to have met him, and i hope to see him more and more.

Clyde,

Hey man,

How is it going, Brian told me you were on here.  It is good to see you are here.  It was great meeting you, and i can't wait to see you and Mr. Tatum again.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

Hey Jeff, good to see you guys posting and to hear about the renewed interest in Kenpo (wink, wink, nudge, know what I mean.   Gotta love Monty Python for that).    If you guys ever have a question, feel free to email me your phone # and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.    Thanks for taking the time to listen to me rant though.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _*
> GD7,
> 
> American Kenpo is so specific when it comes to definitions and terminology.  How come it is not specific when it comes to targeting, i.e. pressure points?
> 
> It would seem that this would be its logical conclusion.  I don't want this to get into a discussion about SL4 because most people in Kenpo are not privy to it, and frankly I don't want to hear another thread about what is lacking in "Motion Kenpo."  What is you experience with this and what are your opinions concerning pressure points and faking and the more mysterious/phony/esoteric parts of the arts?  Did you have any discussions with Parker on this subject? *



Good Question....... 

Well, you won't hear from me that anything is lacking in Kenpo (I don't use the word "Motion" that is someone else's) I don't feel there is, only things that have not been fully focused on and explained in great detail yet...... there are several areas actually that are not "specifically" detailed out.  

Here are a few...

Specific Targeting
Grappling
The Universal Pattern
"Methods" of teaching the material
Master Key Ideas
Weapons usage
Basic's expanded usage
Training drills
Forms Definitions
Throws
Healing Arts
Others

Mr. Parker was in process of little by little going over many of these areas and expanding upon them but unfortunately ran out of time.

If they are to be explored then we must do it ourselves.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *
> Here is my question, how come you never hear anyone speak of Larry Tatum when people mention Kenpo seniors or prominent instructors? I have some old black belt magazine articles and it seemed like Mr. Parker thought highly of him, high enough to even say "he moves like me".......he even called him his "key protege' " in this article. Why is he never mentioned or considered?? *



I don't quite know what you are talking about when you say you "never" hear anyone mention him. He is talked about in many areas and on many forums.  Is he a favorite or commonly talked about on this forum .......... no but so what?  There are many that fill that bill.

Did it ever occur to you that the topic of LT is not for front on everyone's mind except his own students........  People talk about "their" favorite instructors...... not ALL the Kenpo seniors out there.... I might say the same about Dave Hebler..... he is not mentioned as you speak very often but is still out there....  

As for magazine articles...... well don't believe everything you read!  

:asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

Are you saying the magazine article was wrong Dennis?    If so, fill me in.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ask your instructor.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

So for the most part, are kenpoists taught techs the same way,
but the differences among the kenpo leaders and seniors come
into light during the "what ifs" ?


----------



## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *what do you have for an accent mark?
> 
> :asian: *



Would anyone care to share what an accent mark is exactly? I think I know, I just need clarification.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _*
> What is an accent mark exactly?
> *



As I refer to it.... it is a bit of extra knowledge that one may miss during the main stream of motion.  A sometimes "hidden" meaning or strike that one may miss the first time around during a technique.

I also refer to it sometimes as a point to exaggerate or punctuate heavily.

:asian:


----------



## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> As I refer to it.... it is a bit of extra knowledge that one may miss during the main stream of motion.  A sometimes "hidden" meaning or strike that one may miss the first time around during a technique.
> 
> I also refer to it sometimes as a point to exaggerate or punctuate heavily.
> 
> :asian: *



Thank you Mr. Conatser.


----------



## Goldendragon7

be soon........... hee hee

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *be soon........... hee hee
> 
> :asian: *



I have one, unanswered


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> So for the most part, are kenpoists taught techs the same way,
> but the differences among the kenpo leaders and seniors come
> into light during the "what ifs" ?
> *



It  depends upon the differences........ lol...... you need to be specific.  In general I believe many of the differences are in the many different ways (what if's possibly) to do certain  techniques, but more importantly are statements made concerning definitions, specific curriculums, credibility of certain individuals that may have helped Mr. Parker evolve his Art at different time periods,  and other current material that Ed Parker used at the time of his passing.  Certain individuals believe that they are the only ones that really knows this material and how it should be taught regardless of who else has studied with Ed Parker and for how long is not a consideration, as he didn't teach anyone other than them correctly.  So unless you agree with exactly with all of what they say you are not on track with the right material. 

So, no it goes way deeper than just the sequential order of the techniques unfortunately.

:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

If one of your children had to learn kenpo and you couldn't teach them, who would you send them too?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _*
> If one of your children had to learn kenpo and you couldn't teach them, who would you send them too?
> *




I would without a doubt send them to Steve LaBounty.  As well as learning the Art from an Iron Workers view point he also instills great values, responsibilities, ethics, honor, correct basics, proper American Kenpo Technique and other invaluable traits that I would want my boys to learn.  

I also would want them to be exposed to John Sepulveda, Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Bob Liles, Bob White, and Huk Planas to round out their skills and get varying points of view.

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *I just found this Thread.  This forum/site is like a City!  I may never see it all.
> 
> I heard last year that there were 9 Master key moves.  I have not heard anything else about what or how many Master Key's there are until now.
> 
> Are there Master Key moves, or techniques or both?
> 
> Is that list with Intellectual Departure, Circle of Doom... a Family Grouping?  I have never had Intellectual Departure, but I know Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction.  I was told  that Intellectual Departure was removed from the Yellow Belt Curriculum because it was too hard for beginners to get.  I was told that Mr. Parker had it in there and he is the one that also took it out.
> 
> Truly this is an Excellent Thread.
> *


Sir, I'm reposting this question because it got lost on page 5.  There are 3 of them there.  I will resubmit them all here for you.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *Sir,
> 
> Can you tell the story of why some techniques have extensions/how they are grouped.
> 
> I mean that I have heard that there are no extensions for the Brown Belt Techniques because of the way the original techniques were grouped.
> 
> I heard that Mr. Kelly had orginally intended/developed the Brown Belt material for 1st-3rd Black so that the extensions began right after Green but that someone then later re-ordered these charts after Mr. Kelly put them together.  I also heard that Mr. Kelly was not pleased with this.
> 
> I hope this is a worthy question for this thread.
> :asian: *


Sir, this is 2 of 3.  I hope I'm not compounding an error by resubmitting these 3 back-to-back again.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *Sir,
> 
> Is there anyone out there who moves a lot like Mr. Parker so that by seeing them in action we may have a better understanding of how Mr. Parker looked in action?
> 
> If Mr. Parker doesn't have a "twin" then who would you say is closest?  Or is there no one because Mr. Parker encouraged everyone to tailor the art to themselves?
> 
> BTW, you having Mr. Kelly do a technique on you at Mr. Duffy's camp last year was maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen.  Those films of the Internationals that we all watched at breakfast were kind of hard to see from my table.
> :asian: *


3 of 3, sir.
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ok Mister million and one questions........ ps do you have an instructor?      hee hee  j/k



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I heard last year that there were 9 Master key moves.
> *



No, there are 10 




> *
> Are there Master Key moves, or techniques or both?
> *



There are 10 Master Key Techniques...... however there are also Master Key drills and other master keys...... such as basics, forms etc.



> *
> Is that list with Intellectual Departure, Circle of Doom... a Family Grouping? I have never had Intellectual Departure, but I know Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction.
> *



yes

*



			I was told that Intellectual Departure was removed from the Yellow Belt Curriculum because it was too hard for beginners to get. I was told that Mr. Parker had it in there and he is the one that also took it out.
		
Click to expand...

*
Intellectual Departure was replaced by Sword and Hammer which was a much easier technique for the beginning student.  Intellectual Departure was deemed too sophisticated for that belt and was replaced.  Yes, Mr. Parker did make the move.  Do you think anybody could tell him what to do?  lol  He agreed with the ideas and changed the curriculum at that time.

*



			Why do some techniques have extensions/how they are grouped. 

I heard that Mr. Kelly had orginally intended/developed the Brown Belt material for 1st-3rd Black so that the extensions began right after Green but that the charts were later re-configured after Mr. Kelly put them together. 

I also heard that Mr. Kelly was not pleased with this.
		
Click to expand...

*
When I started with Mr. Parker we had 32  Techniques for Orange, Purple, Blue, & Green Belts.  No Brown or Black techniques.  Mr. Parker was trying to "Franchise" and pull back in many of the existing Kenpo studios out there and one of the things needed was a business plan or a good curriculum.  It didn't look good with just techniques up thru only Green belt so it was necessary to expand the curriculum, which is what he did. 

Do you think it really mattered if Tom Kelly or anyone else was  upset with the expansion...... after all whose system was it..... come on!!!

*



			Is there anyone out there who moves a lot like Mr. Parker so that by seeing them in action we may have a better understanding of how Mr. Parker looked in action?
		
Click to expand...

*
Well this is a loaded question....... I think there are a lot of guys that look "sorta" like Mr. Parker to some degree however, he was truly unique and really HIS STYLE was ALL HIS OWN, lol many of us try to emulate what we saw and felt.

*



			If Mr. Parker doesn't have a "twin" then who would you say is closest? Or is there no one because Mr. Parker encouraged everyone to tailor the art to themselves?
		
Click to expand...

*
As far as looks go...... His brother David is very close to his looks soooooooo close in fact that many will pass out if they see him!!!

As far as the ART goes........ No.... none fills those shoes in my opinion.

[/B][/QUOTE]
BTW, you having Mr. Kelly do a technique on you at Mr. Duffy's camp last year was maybe the coolest thing I've ever seen. 
[/B][/QUOTE]

I just wanted you guys to see him move a little..... he's impressive.

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Ok Mister million and one questions........ ps do you have an instructor?      hee hee  j/k
> *



Yes, and has very good taste in Kenpo buddies.
Thank you for everything.
:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

> When I started with Mr. Parker we had 32 Techniques for Orange, Purple, Blue, & Green Belts. No Brown or Black techniques. Mr. Parker was trying to "Franchise" and pull back in many of the existing Kenpo studios out there and one of the things needed was a business plan or a good curriculum. It didn't look good with just techniques up thru only Green belt so it was necessary to expand the curriculum, which is what he did.



I guess this answers my question of why do the extensions begin at orange and not yellow.


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> I guess this answers my question of why do the extensions begin at orange and not yellow.
> *



Yellow was originally designed for children only, but it was so popular that it was added to the adults curriculum as well as a stand alone belt for the beginners.  

However, today for my black belt candidates, I ask them to make up extensions for them...... it is fun and fresh since there are  no extensions for them .  

:asian:


----------



## kenpo_cory

I have a couple of questions. First, did Mr. Parker ever go into detail on his view about chi or ki or however ya wanna say it? And do you know of any resources or have any information about the cultivation of being able to control at will the ability to perceive the world around you at slow motion? Like when you're in a traumatic situation and the world around you appears to go into slow motion. I'd like to do a thesis on this in the future but I haven't had any luck finding information on the subject. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on my training here by trying to learn about this already. Any info at all would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
> 
> *And do you know of any resources or have any information about the cultivation of being able to control at will the ability to perceive the world around you at slow motion? Like when you're in a traumatic situation and the world around you appears to go into slow motion. I'd like to do a thesis on this in the future but I haven't had any luck finding information on the subject. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on my training here by trying to learn about this already. Any info at all would be greatly appreciated. *



Before anyone doubts this, it *does* exist, as I've done it myself and can vouch for it's existence, in complete honesty, proper Matrix style.

That was an _exceptional_ circumsatance though, I've never heard of anyone been able to do it at will? I suppose if the body is capable of it though there may be a way to master it, but I find myself sceptical.

Ian.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> Before anyone doubts this, it does exist, as I've done it myself and can vouch for it's existence, in complete honesty, proper Matrix style.
> 
> That was an exceptional circumsatance though, I've never heard of anyone been able to do it at will? I suppose if the body is capable of it though there may be a way to master it, but I find myself sceptical.
> 
> Ian. *



It's actually called Temporal Distortion, and it usually happens when you get a sudden adrenal dump in the body (happened to me during a motorcycle wreck).    I know of no one that can do it at will either but constant training will give you a better edge in mental perception as opposed to  physical speed.    Time doesn't slow down, but you see motion like it is coming slower, but to the spectators, it's moving a 1000mph.    It's all in your perception, trained and untrained.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *it usually happens when you get a sudden adrenal dump in the body*



Now here is a great thread topic. I mentioned it before in another thread but no one seemingly wanted to discuss it.


----------



## kenpo_cory

Athos Antoniades is the only martial artist I personally have ever seen post anything regarding training for this sort of thing, and he mentions it only briefly. Check it out and see what you guys think. This is a section of the article he wrote; it's the only place in the article that he really mentions this at all. I posted a link to the article as well so you guys can read the whole thing. This guy teaches a version of Kenpo by the way.

http://www.nkka.freeserve.co.uk/Internalised/irish_Vol7no3.htm

"A subconscious reaction"
Something which I stress in my Kenpo classes, is the fact that fighting is a subconscious reaction. You cannot rely on the conscious thinking part of the brain to see you through a fight as it is too logical and fighting is not a logical process. We therefore train in methods to occupy our conscious mind so that the subconscious can take over.

This is known as the 'no mind' state of mind, or the state of 'doing without doing'. The years of training in our basics teach us mind and body co-ordination. We instinctively become spontaneous masters of adaptability with all our action being both defensive and offensive. The years of solo and two-person training in our techniques, forms, sets and sparring give us the ability to act calmly and spontaneously in a flash when the situation warants it. We will instinctively strike vital targets and Dim Mak points without thinking about it.

At a more advanced level, and certainly not before students have reached brown belt level, I will acquaint them with the 'reptilian brain' which can be thought of as the ultimate 'no mind' state. I have taught about the reptilian brain in the Chinese internal art of Tai Chi Chuan training and have incorporated it into my Kenpo with great success. Kenpo's rapid succession of strikes makes it very adaptable to the reptilian brain.

Humans have three brains inside their heads. The reptilian brain was the first that anything ever had. Reptiles, such as snakes and crocodiles, still only have this brain. Then there is the mammalian brain, which all animals have, and then we, as humans, also have the neo-mammalian or human brain. Humans have all three brains.

The reptilian brain is the survival brain. However, the modern way of life has really made this part of our brain - which modern science has identified as the brain stem - virtually redundant. In order to attain the highest level of martial arts, we must make use of this brain, as it is by nature our survival brain.

By training in both the external and internal arts, we will quite naturally go into this brain in an altercation. By internalising American Kenpo, students will learn to take advantage of this part of their brain. There are certain ways in which we can bring the reptilian brain into action, but this will only be taught to senior students, as it may cause problems if the student has not had an adequate training. Once the reptile brain has come into play, you are in a different world; everything around you seems to move in slow motion.

'No Mind'


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
> 
> *Athos Antoniades is the only martial artist I personally have ever seen post anything regarding training for this sort of thing, and he mentions it only briefly. Check it out and see what you guys think. This is a section of the article he wrote; it's the only place in the article that he really mentions this at all. I posted a link to the article as well so you guys can read the whole thing. This guy teaches a version of Kenpo by the way.
> 
> http://www.nkka.freeserve.co.uk/Internalised/irish_Vol7no3.htm
> 
> "A subconscious reaction"
> Something which I stress in my Kenpo classes, is the fact that fighting is a subconscious reaction. You cannot rely on the conscious thinking part of the brain to see you through a fight as it is too logical and fighting is not a logical process. We therefore train in methods to occupy our conscious mind so that the subconscious can take over.
> 
> This is known as the 'no mind' state of mind, or the state of 'doing without doing'. The years of training in our basics teach us mind and body co-ordination. We instinctively become spontaneous masters of adaptability with all our action being both defensive and offensive. The years of solo and two-person training in our techniques, forms, sets and sparring give us the ability to act calmly and spontaneously in a flash when the situation warants it. We will instinctively strike vital targets and Dim Mak points without thinking about it.
> 
> At a more advanced level, and certainly not before students have reached brown belt level, I will acquaint them with the 'reptilian brain' which can be thought of as the ultimate 'no mind' state. I have taught about the reptilian brain in the Chinese internal art of Tai Chi Chuan training and have incorporated it into my Kenpo with great success. Kenpo's rapid succession of strikes makes it very adaptable to the reptilian brain.
> 
> Humans have three brains inside their heads. The reptilian brain was the first that anything ever had. Reptiles, such as snakes and crocodiles, still only have this brain. Then there is the mammalian brain, which all animals have, and then we, as humans, also have the neo-mammalian or human brain. Humans have all three brains.
> 
> The reptilian brain is the survival brain. However, the modern way of life has really made this part of our brain - which modern science has identified as the brain stem - virtually redundant. In order to attain the highest level of martial arts, we must make use of this brain, as it is by nature our survival brain.
> 
> By training in both the external and internal arts, we will quite naturally go into this brain in an altercation. By internalising American Kenpo, students will learn to take advantage of this part of their brain. There are certain ways in which we can bring the reptilian brain into action, but this will only be taught to senior students, as it may cause problems if the student has not had an adequate training. Once the reptile brain has come into play, you are in a different world; everything around you seems to move in slow motion.
> 
> 'No Mind' *




Interesting I just posted something similar to this on the LEFT_RIGHT thread.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## Goldendragon7

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *
> 
> Now here is a great thread topic. I mentioned it before in another thread but no one seemingly wanted to discuss it. *



Gou, I didn't reply because you are so often confrontational, sarcastic and not serious.  But I'll reply now to this post.  This may be the second time you noticed that you and I agree on something.  I would email you more often and reply directly to your posts but I think you and I have a different temperment and it is my predilection to avoid trouble that has me avoid you so much.  Since you brought it up, I thought I'd address the issue.  It may also explain why no one else replied.  I was interested in what you said, but I didn't want to get into it with you.  

Although I have not followed the link to Athos Antoniades' site, I have been there recently and I was intrigued by it. 

I wanted to chime in here and say that I have experienced the slow motion effect myself.  I have also read an explanation that may be consistent with Gou and Prof. Kenpo.

I have read (maybe in High School or College because I took a lot of biology classes) that when you are in a Fight or Flight state, the body "races" increasing your overall awareness.  I think Adrenalin production increases... and your nervous system actually speeds up both of which combine to make you mentally and physically quicker.  You can perceive things faster, you can be stronger and you can move faster.  This "feels like" everything else is going slower but that is inaccurate.

I don't know exactly how this works.  Maybe Gou and the Prof. will elaborate.  I will go look on the web for more info.  I don't know if they relate or not, but Mr. Parker Jr. says that Mr. Parker was a Dimensional Thinker and refers people to the movie Searching for Bobby Fisher to see what he means.  Apparently, Mr. Parker was usually thinking "12 moves ahead" and this contributed to his speed and effectivenes.

I don't know if being a Dimensional Thinker is related to the Adrenalin Dump phenomenon, but I do know that sometimes when I spar or work with a new person, I can anticipate what they are going to do and just "get there first."  Of course to them it seems like I'm going fast or I'm being a Genius.  To me it is just that they are going slow and they are being predictable.

I'm guessing that if you get into a situation where you KNOW that you can "take" someone, you may be able to trigger this Adrenalin Dump and use it in your favor.  I don't know.  I may investigate this.

I do know that I went to a tournament once as a Purple or Blue Belt and had to fight a big guy who had been talking smack all morning about he only fights Black Belts... and I was scared of him.  We got matched up for freestyle and during my Adrenalin rush which used to always make me weak and nervous, I was able to utilize and harness that energy to my advantage.  It was the first time I was able to do this.  It was amazing.  Although he knocked me out of the ring during the match, I stayed on him and it ended something like 5 to 4 and he won.  I was so proud that I didn't wet my gi, or fold-up or whatever.  I will always remember that fight.  Perhaps I was onto something there. ?

Great topic.
:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *:asian: *


GD7 
Why no public answer?


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

Gou,

Have you met Vladimir's  instructor, Mykial?(sp?)?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> 
> *GD7
> Why no public answer? *



My response was to Kenpo Cory at the top of the page.

:asian:


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

Oh. doesn't anyone sleep around here?


----------



## eternalwhitebelt

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> My response was to Kenpo Cory at the top of the page.
> 
> :asian: *


I know, I too was curios about your answer to Cory's question.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> 
> *Oh. doesn't anyone sleep around here? *


Only when they make me


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> *I know, I too was curios about your answer to Cory's question. *



Ok.........



> *
> Did Mr. Parker ever go into detail on his view about chi or ki or however ya wanna say it?
> *



Never in great detail.... would discuss a little, enough to believe it is real but nothing much further.

*



			And do you know of any resources or have any information about the cultivation of being able to control at will the ability to perceive the world around you at slow motion? Like when you're in a traumatic situation and the world around you appears to go into slow motion.
		
Click to expand...

*
No

*



			I'd like to do a thesis on this in the future but I haven't had any luck finding information on the subject. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on my training here by trying to learn about this already. Any info at all would be greatly appreciated.
		
Click to expand...

*
I suggested a professor in the Psych field....  I also encouraged the theis...... I would be interested.

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

I do have an anecdote about Mr. Parker and chi...

Mr. Duffy was driving in San Antonio with Mr. Parker and Mr. Tony Martinez sometime in the early 70's I believe. 

During the drive, Mr. Parker reached to Mr. Martinez in the back seat and "touched" his shoulder only to turn back around and continue talking with Mr. Duffy as he drove.  Mr. Martinez just sat in the back very quiet.  Later Mr. Parker reached back and rubbed Mr. Martinez' shoulder and asked if he was OK.  I think Mr. Martinez may have been a bit stunned when he replied that he was fine. 


Sometime after the drive was over and Mr. Duffy and Mr. Martinez were alone again Mr. Duffy asked Mr. Martinez "What was that about with your arm?"  Mr. Martinez said "When he first reached back and touched me, I couldn't move my arm.  It went numb."  I think he also said that he could not even feel it.  He said that when Mr. Parker reached back again he regained the feeling almost immediately.  It freaked him out.

That is about all I have on this topic.
:asian:


----------



## Scott Bonner

> _Originally posted by KENPO_CORY _
> Humans have three brains inside their heads. The reptilian brain was the first that anything ever had. Reptiles, such as snakes and crocodiles, still only have this brain. Then there is the mammalian brain, which all animals have, and then we, as humans, also have the neo-mammalian or human brain. Humans have all three brains.
> 
> The reptilian brain is the survival brain. However, the modern way of life has really made this part of our brain - which modern science has identified as the brain stem - virtually redundant. In order to attain the highest level of martial arts, we must make use of this brain, as it is by nature our survival brain.
> 
> By training in both the external and internal arts, we will quite naturally go into this brain in an altercation.
> 'No Mind' [/B]



I don't know if this person's training works or not, but he doesn't know much about the brain.  The brain has 3 sections, but they are not all that clearly delineated (each grew from the one "below" it, after all).  The reptilian brain is far from redundant -- it handles little things like heartbeat and breathing.  If something has to go, it wouldn't be the reptilian brain.  The "higher" brain does not take over or duplicate these functions.  Also, the reptilian brain is more than just thebrain stem.  It includes the spinal cord and reaches up into the "lower mammillian" brain so that it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

During an altercation, we don't just revert to using the reptilian brain, and indeed we would be more likely to use the "lower mammillian" brain, where, if I recall correctly, the hypothalamus lies.  The hypothalamus handles the "four F's of behavior: fight, flight, food, and sex."  That's the only part of the brain that might be more active during a fight than other parts, though most of the brain is going to light up as we try to use our eyes, ears, and sense of touch, and use that frontal cortex try to make good decisions.  Even the focus on the hypothalamus is misleading, though, as fight or flight, though powerful, is far from the only part our brain plays in an altercation.

Oddly enough, the "no mind" state that Zen practitioners speak of mostly fires up the frontal cortex -- the "highest" part of the brain and furthest from the parts that control physiological survival functions.  Essentially, "no mind" isn't a cessasion of thought so much as using thought to give the illusion of not having thought.  It takes a lot of concentration to act without concentration.


----------



## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> My response was to Kenpo Cory at the top of the page.
> 
> :asian: *



Oh, I wasn't sure if you were talking to me or not so I didn't respond. Thank you, I will be looking forward to that e-mail.


----------



## Michael Billings

Dennis,

You have devoted an incredible amount of time and energy to this string.  I am really appreciating it.  

Talked to Curtis Abernathy and Jeff Schroeder last weekend at Edmund's seminar, and they seemed positive about helping host a seminar with you.  If you are still up for this, we may be able to swing it.  I talked it up with some of the Houston Guys and they were also interested.

I promise to have questions ... and a gag for CD when you make it down.  I know Mr. Duffy's camp is soon and mine is in late September in California.  Were you planning anything down this way in the interim?  

I will give you a call in the next week or so.

-Michael


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Dennis,
> 
> You have devoted an incredible amount of time and energy to this string.  I am really appreciating it.
> 
> Talked to Curtis Abernathy and Jeff Schroeder last weekend at Edmund's seminar, and they seemed positive about helping host a seminar with you.  If you are still up for this, we may be able to swing it.  I talked it up with some of the Houston Guys and they were also interested.*



Amen!  I edited this thread yesterday to go into my notebook but it still came out to 46 pages! I'm afraid to print it at work!

We are going to need to book the Erwin Center if Mr. C comes down here and we have 5 schools showing up!  Is that going to work out?

BTW how does that work?  Mr. Parker Jr. had an odd format I thought.  1 mixed class for 4 hours.  I loved it, but would Mr. C be doing the same type of thing?  I know, I know.  Those are the types of problems we all want to have.



> *
> I promise to have questions ... and a gag for CD when you make it down.
> -Michael *


----------



## Michael Billings

... how I (try to) just ignore Doug's questions all together?  

(Darn, I couldn't ignore him)
We will work it out Doug.  This is a school owner thing and I don't want to talk about other people's business and livlihood on an open forum.  I am sure Mr. Duffy would be able to get a little extra private time for Mr. C. with his students, in addition to whatever seminar(s) he does with the rest of us.  You cannot help but come out ahead of the game with where you study.

-Michael


----------



## cdhall

Sorry, sir

I wasn't worried about anything, I just thought it was different the way Mr. Parker Jr did his seminar and I was curious.  I figured also that with so many people/schools involved that we could amass a crowd like Mr. Abernathy put together. 

I wasn't angling for an secrets.  I'd email you if I needed something like that. 

And I also would plan a day differently for a 3-4 hour seminar than I would for a 1.5 one. 

Those were mostly rhetorical questions.  Sorry it didn't come across that way.  
:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

I sent ya an email.  Ain't no big thing - OK, I have no sense of humor ... STOP IT, I can hear yall laughing now.
:rofl: 
-Michael


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *OK, I have no sense of humor ... :rofl:
> -Michael *




I would say that, you laughed when I said you broke my camera when we took a picture together at the EPjr seminar....

jb:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Dennis,
> 
> You have devoted an incredible amount of time and energy to this string.  I am really appreciating it.
> 
> Talked to Curtis Abernathy and Jeff Schroeder last weekend at Edmund's seminar, and they seemed positive about helping host a seminar with you.  If you are still up for this, we may be able to swing it.  I talked it up with some of the Houston Guys and they were also interested.
> 
> I promise to have questions ... and a gag for CD when you make it down.  I know Mr. Duffy's camp is soon and mine is in late September in California.  Were you planning anything down this way in the interim?
> 
> I will give you a call in the next week or so.
> 
> -Michael *




That'd be super cool!   Can't wait for a Mr C seminar!


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> I would say that, you laughed when I said you broke my camera when we took a picture together at the EPjr seminar....
> 
> jb:asian: *



Duh,

I meant to say, "I say *WOULDN'T * that...."

jb:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Any seminars coming to my neck of the woods? I'd love to go to one, I've never been to one, but they're all so far away from me.


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Heck it's still on fire there........LOL..... man  I don't want be a bar b que!  hee hee.......  sure I'll come to Denver....... when........?
:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Well your state was burning alot more than this one did. Man, 300,000 acres burned up, that's a pretty big chunk of land.



> sure I'll come to Denver....... when........?




Tomorrow, I'll pick you up at the airport and I'll be the only one in attendence  



:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Any new questions for me ...... or are we running low....????? lol

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*Tomorrow, I'll pick you up at the airport and I'll be the only one in attendence
> *



Pigs get fat and Hogs go to slaughter!

lol:rofl: :shrug:      

:asian:


----------



## Seig

This may sound like a silly question, but why are there only short froms up through 3?  I mean why not a short 4, etc?


----------



## Kirk

Do you charge a standard fare for seminars, or is it always 
negotiable?  Do you include private lessons for the instructor?
I hear that you're fond of sparring .. what do you do if you go into
a school that doesn't spar?  There'd be no equipment.


----------



## Robbo

Is the rebounding principle as simple as it seems or is there more to it that just bouncing off your or your opponent's body to augment your techniques?

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## cdhall

Sir,

Be careful what you wish for.  I guess this makes me "Mr. One Million and Six Questions...." 

1. I know you already said that you never saw Mr. Parker in an actual fight, but you were with him for Many demos all across the world right?  So, what was the COOLEST thing you ever saw him do?

2. And/or when/where/what was the coolest demo?

3. And are any of these on video?  I noticed that Mrs. Parker's book has some photos of Mr. Parker doing demos.  Did any of them get on film/tape?

What is the best video out there for us to get and see Mr. Parker actually doing techniques... himself.

4. The IKC sells an Infomercial.  I have seen a TV spot of Mr. Parker "What type of person studies Kenpo..." That was a cool commercial!  Do you know if it is on the infomercial tape?  Have you seen the Infomercial tape or the TV spot?

5.  Just in case, what is the coolest thing we are likely to be able to get video of Mr. Parker doing. I mean in case the actual coolest thing isn't available. Personally I liked the TV spot.  I've seen it in BW with no sound.  In BW with sound.  And once in color with sound.  I may call the IKKA to ask if it is on that one tape they sell.
:ubercool:


----------



## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *This may sound like a silly question, but why are there only short froms up through 3?  I mean why not a short 4, etc? *



Actually we still teach short 4, I don't belive there are any other short forms after that though.

Michael


----------



## cdhall

I have been given a "formula" to create Short 4-whatever, but I don't know how the Short forms were taught beyond Short 3 or why they were (not) taught separately.

Mr. C, will you elaborate on this phenomenon please?
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> Why are there only short froms up through 3?  I mean why not a short 4, etc?
> *



There are  those possibilities and others. 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Do you charge a standard fare for seminars, or is it always
> negotiable?  Do you include private lessons for the instructor?
> I hear that you're fond of sparring .. what do you do if you go into
> a school that doesn't spar?  There'd be no equipment. *



I have a base and negotiate from there with the Host as to all the details.

I "DO" like sparring but there is no problem if the studio want some other topics.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> I have a base and negotiate from there with the Host as to all the details.
> 
> I "DO" like sparring but there is no problem if the studio want some other topics.
> 
> :asian: *



What if they give you carte blanc?  What I'm getting at here is ...
if I go to Mr Duffy's camp without gear, am I doomed to be a 
spectator? And if yes ..what do I need to bring to prevent that?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Robbo _*
> Is the rebounding principle as simple as it seems or is there more to it that just bouncing off your or your opponent's body to augment your techniques?
> *



The principle is simple....  to bounce, carom, or ricochet off of one block, strike, or surface and be utilized for another strike, check, block etc.

Simple but sophisticated  when you apply the universal Pattern options to reality situations.  Timing, angles, methods of execution, paths of execution, hand as well as foot actions all could have explanations here.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

[
QUOTE]_Originally posted by cdhall _*
1. I know you already said that you never saw Mr. Parker in an actual fight, but you were with him for Many demos all across the world right?  So, what was the COOLEST thing you ever saw him do?
*[/QUOTE]

Move

*



			2. And/or when/where/what was the coolest demo?
		
Click to expand...

*
Probably in Australia with Frank Trejo. Lee Wedlake and myself.

*



			3. And are any of these on video?  I noticed that Mrs. Parker's book has some photos of Mr. Parker doing demos.  Did any of them get on film/tape?

What is the best video out there for us to get and see Mr. Parker actually doing techniques... himself.
		
Click to expand...

*
I think there are a few floating around... you will probably see more in the future become available.

*



			4. The IKC sells an Infomercial.  I have seen a TV spot of Mr. Parker "What type of person studies Kenpo..." That was a cool commercial!  Do you know if it is on the infomercial tape?  Have you seen the Infomercial tape or the TV spot?
		
Click to expand...

*
Yes, I have that tape, it is a cool commercial.... I don't know what else is on that particular tape .... they have been redone and added to so much that there could be several today with many different things on them.

*



			5.  Just in case, what is the coolest thing we are likely to be able to get video of Mr. Parker doing. I mean in case the actual coolest thing isn't available. Personally I liked the TV spot.  I've seen it in BW with no sound.  In BW with sound.  And once in color with sound.  I may call the IKKA to ask if it is on that one tape they sell.
		
Click to expand...

*
There will be seminars that he has done in various parts of the world or states that will probably redone and available to purchase..... don't ask me when.

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

If short 4 didn't exsist in Mr. Parkers curriculum why put it there now? Was he toying with the idea of a short 4?



:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> What if they give you carte blanc?  What I'm getting at here is ...
> if I go to Mr Duffy's camp without gear, am I doomed to be a
> spectator? And if yes ..what do I need to bring to prevent that? *



Cup and mouth piece...I'll let you borrow mine. Or someone else will definitely let you borrow theirs when they aren't fighting. Or I can bring my old gear (as long as your not allergic to duct tape..lol), but I think one of my buddys may come with me and borrow that. 

The one year I did make the camp Mr. White did the sparring class. He's a pretty amazing guy himself and his sparring theory and drills are top notch as well. In fact, any one of the instructors could teach you something about sparring...they are all proven in the ring.

jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> If I go to Mr Duffy's camp without gear, am I doomed to be a spectator? And if yes ..what do I need to bring to prevent that?
> *



LOL.... well you won't be a spectator for long.... lol but he has a camp list of what you need for the camp   http://www.akfkenpo.com/camp/

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I don't know how the Short forms were taught beyond Short 3 or why they were (not) taught separately.
> Mr. C, will you elaborate on this phenomenon please?
> *



The first I heard of the short 4 and beyond was about 1985 or so.

It was fun to do and something new, with the old.

As to exactly why... I don't really know.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93_*
> If short 4 didn't exsist in Mr. Parkers curriculum why put it there now? Was he toying with the idea of a short 4?
> *


*

It is an option.......  use it if you like or don't worry about it.  All depends on how well you want to learn Kenpo I guess.  

:asian:*


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

A lot of people ask about SGM Parker and how he moved and if its on video, etc...

As you know I started that quest 4 or 5 yrs ago (when I first started begging you for footage...which I still have never been able to pry away from you). Over the years have been blessed enough to see some pretty amazing footage of SGM Parker. 

My question is what value can be gained by a student from seeing this footage? and, if there is any, do you make it a point to show your students actual footage of your beloved instructor? and if so, when do you do it?

In my personal opinion I equate it to the first person that broke the 4 min mile. Prior to that no one had, but after it was done once, then almost immediately more people began to accomplish that feat. The first time I saw SGM Parker move on video I said, "Wow, so that's what this stuff is supposed to look like at its highest levels". I said that again when I saw (and felt) you open it up a little for me. Prior to that, for me, the bar was at one level. After that it was definitely raised. I could also say the same for other vids I've seen of various (Kenpo & non-Kenpo) instructors. 

Just my thoughts,

jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> As you know I started that quest 4 or 5 yrs ago (when I first started begging you for footage ... which I still have never been able to pry away from you).
> *




Yes, and you won't either.  I will let that go when I want to and not before.  Everybody wants something for nothing, nobody wants to pay the price.



> *
> My question is what value can be gained by a student from seeing this footage?
> *




If you have footage and continue to seek more.... I should ask you the question.



> *
> Do you make it a point to show your students actual footage of your beloved instructor (Mr. Parker)?    and if so, when do you do it?
> *




Yes, I do show them footage from time to time if the question arises or if they are curious as to what he looked like.  I refer to several Pink Panther movies, To Kill A Goldend Goose, or simply watch seminar tapes at my house.



> *
> In my personal opinion I equate it to the first person that broke the 4 min mile. Prior to that no one had, but after it was done once, then almost immediately more people began to accomplish that feat. The first time I saw SGM Parker move on video I said, "Wow, so that's what this stuff is supposed to look like at its highest levels". I said that again when I saw (and felt) you open it up a little for me. Prior to that, for me, the bar was at one level. After that it was definitely raised. I could also say the same for other vids I've seen of various (Kenpo & non-Kenpo) instructors.
> Just my thoughts,
> jb:asian: *



Ok, I agree with you.  I think it is useful to see films of the founder of the system ..... 

:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

I just realized that while I have seen Ed Parker Sr. in movies like _Kill The Golden Goose_ and _The Pink Panther_ series I have never seen him on any seminar footage.

Well, you should all be witness to this. I think we have finally found the one time where it sucks to be me.
:disgust:


----------



## Seig

Gou, it could be worse.....I could be you!:rofl:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> 1) Yes, and you won't either. I will let that go when I want to and not before. Everybody wants something for nothing, nobody wants to pay the price.
> 
> 
> 2) If you have footage and continue to seek more.... I should ask you the question.
> 
> 
> :asian: *



1) Big meanie...like that's gonna stop us from asking... 

2) This is your Q & A, nobody wants to hear from a Kenpo nobody:shrug: 

:asian:


----------



## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Gou, it could be worse.....I could be you!*



Ok, that would mean you've never seen seminar footage of Ed Parker Sr.

Of course that would mean you'd also be better looking.

Keep reaching for those stars baby!


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> It is an option.......  use it if you like or don't worry about it.  All depends on how well you want to learn Kenpo I guess.
> 
> :asian: *





 
When, Where, & How
Does someone go about learning the stuff that's been left out of the curriculum, or forgotten material, or older marterial that just might be fun????????

_standing with my hands in my pockets, looking at the ground, kicking the dirt around with my shoes._


----------



## cdhall

Mr. C.

If you occasionally show seminar tapes at your house...
I suggest that you add an hour to your seminar(s) and show some footage.  Maybe at the beginning if it will apply to what you are about to teach.

Mr. Parker Jr did a QnA the night before the 2000 seminar I went to see him at.  He has a little bit of video and that was really cool.

However, you can probably enhance the value and cool factor of your seminars if you start of with some footage of Mr. Parker maybe even 15mins would be enough.

Just a thought.  PLEASE consider this option when you swing to TX or Bring the Stuff to CAMP!

Since you are not selling the footage or copying the footage I don't think there is a copyright issue involved, but perhaps we can both check with our Atty's to be sure.  


I've impressed myself with this idea.  I hope you like it.  Of course, it is your idea because you already do this at home.
:ubercool:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *Mr. C.
> 
> If you occasionally show seminar tapes at your house...
> I suggest that you add an hour to your seminar(s) and show some footage.  Maybe at the beginning if it will apply to what you are about to teach.
> 
> Mr. Parker Jr did a QnA the night before the 2000 seminar I went to see him at.  He has a little bit of video and that was really cool.
> 
> However, you can probably enhance the value and cool factor of your seminars if you start of with some footage of Mr. Parker maybe even 15mins would be enough.
> 
> Just a thought.  PLEASE consider this option when you swing to TX or Bring the Stuff to CAMP!
> 
> Since you are not selling the footage or copying the footage I don't think there is a copyright issue involved, but perhaps we can both check with our Atty's to be sure.
> 
> 
> I've impressed myself with this idea.  I hope you like it.  Of course, it is your idea because you already do this at home.
> :ubercool: *



Gosh, don'tell him that, he'll start charging admission


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> LOL.... well you won't be a spectator for long.... lol but he has a camp list of what you need for the camp   http://www.akfkenpo.com/camp/
> 
> :asian: *



Who is teaching basics?  Do you have an idea of their syllabus?


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Since you are not selling the footage........ .
> *



Who said that?.........


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Gosh, don'tell him that, he'll start charging admission
> *



Hey, I never thought of that:shrug: ...... excellent idea......!

:rofl: 
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> Who is teaching basics?  Do you have an idea of their syllabus?
> *



Me.  

Stances, blocks, parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, kicks, foot maneuvers.

pba
moe
poa
drills

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Do your students wear the belt knot to the side?


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> Do your students wear the belt knot to the side?
> *



Yes, that is a custom we follow.

:asian:


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> Me.
> 
> Stances, blocks, parries, punches, strikes, finger techniques, kicks, foot maneuvers.
> 
> pba
> moe
> poa
> drills
> 
> :asian: *



What do the abreviations stand for?

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

pba proper body alingment
:asian:


----------



## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *pba proper body alingment
> :asian: *




the ol' skl eh?   


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Kenpo Net Talk


----------



## Goldendragon7

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *:asian: *




Deep subject and I'm coming up dry :rofl: :rofl: 


:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Deep subject and I'm coming up dry :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> 
> :asian: *



Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox: *



Right.  Speaking of "Well" if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Castillo lives near a nearly inexhaustible source of undrinkable water!
:rofl:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Mr. Klondike, don't listen to these boobs. Stick with me, I'll lead you in the right direction!:soapbox: *


Now * That * is a scary proposition!


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *
> 
> Right.  Speaking of "Well" if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Castillo lives near a nearly inexhaustible source of undrinkable water!
> :rofl:
> 
> *



Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Now  That  is a scary proposition! *



NO, I 'm not Michael Jackson, so I ain't scary! I am though, just good looking, wise, and a leader!


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox: *


I was suggesting the same thing when I was living in FLorida because they are always screaming there is a water shortage.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, our wonderful members of city government have finally realized that they nedd a de-salinization plant for fresh water!(Idiots):soapbox: *


I knew it, he has been drinking Mezquel instead of water!:rofl:


----------



## Kirk

Boy could I go off on that subject right now.  But no one would
read my post, it'd be too long, and wouldn't interest most!


----------



## GouRonin

Just a note.

Canada has most of the world's supply of fresh water.

Heh...


----------



## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Just a note.
> 
> Canada has most of the world's supply of fresh water.
> 
> Heh... *



well of course it does........everyone knows that crap runs down hill.  That's why the water here tastes so bad, its the runoff from canada.  hehehehehe

Michael


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> well of course it does........everyone knows that crap runs down hill.  That's why the water here tastes so bad, its the runoff from canada.  hehehehehe
> 
> Michael *




EVERYBODY HERE, DUCK!!!:redeme:


----------



## Rob_Broad

Be nice to us Canadians, or we'll take away your hockey, basket ball and good beer.


----------



## AvPKenpo

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> 
> *Be nice to us Canadians, or we'll take away your hockey, basket ball and good beer. *



K, you can keep the beer :barf:  but you have got to leave the hockey:cheers: .

Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

for me?

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

Have you ever deliberately changed anything in a technique or form based on something you've found to be "more" logical. Kicking set is the obvious example, but I wondered if you had done it with any other parts of the material?

jb:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

In the past I've had discussions with Seniors about the system and it seems to me that the first pass through the system is an opportunity to develop a base understanding of the base concept, but the meat and potatoes come during the 2,3 & 4 pass through the system. Both you and Doc Chape'l seem to do the same thing in this regard. Each time peeling back another layer to the system (or adding depending on how you look at it). Could you please discribe those layers or phases of the system that you teach? and how you would characterize each.

Thanks, jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Have you ever deliberately changed anything in a technique or form based on something you've found to be "more" logical. Kicking set is the obvious example, but I wondered if you had done it with any other parts of the material?
> *



hee hee......... Well, this is an excellent question.   First off, I didn't change the Kicking Sets 4th wall, Mr. Parker did.  My student did in fact discover a unique point that then in turn I brought to Mr. Parker for evaluation.  He liked the point and promptly made the adjustment.  

I  for one don't like to "alter" the "BASE" system.  For one I can always do that in the what if Phase or using the Kenpo Tool "Equation  formula" to modify a movement for some reason.  If I discovered a "serious" flaw that called for improvement, my protocol would be to contact several  Seniors and run it by them for scrutiny.  I don't want to make any snap alterations that may have long range implications that I possibly didn't see.  So before I would personally change anything I would pass it across the board, (one good reason for a Senior Council among others).

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> hee hee......... Well, this is an excellent question.   ).
> 
> :asian: *



Finally...:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> In the past I've had discussions with Seniors about the system and it seems to me that the first pass through the system is an opportunity to develop a base understanding of the base concept, but the meat and potatoes come during the 2,3 & 4 pass through the system. Both you and Doc Chape'l seem to do the same thing in this regard. Each time peeling back another layer to the system (or adding depending on how you look at it). Could you please discribe those layers or phases of the system that you teach? and how you would characterize each.
> *



I can't speak for others but I myself utilize the 4 layers as different phases of maturity something I also refer to as (committing to "The Process") ......

1st Phase... would be the infant or foundational phase where the foundation and coordination is developed along with planting the seeds for later harvest. 

2nd Phase... is the cultivation phase where you continually water and fertilize the crop introducing new components into the soil at as slow but steady pace all the while tending and weeding the growth .......

3rd Phase... is the near mature student that now has a good grasp on the material and the plant is producing fruit but is still in need of protection and knowledge to warn against the "bugs and weeds of life".  Continual nurturing and more food and sun needed here to bring the plant to full maturity...... history, understanding where we came from - where we are - and a look into where we have yet to go............

4th Phase... The flight to freedom phase..... the foundation completed the vitamins and minerals all fell into place.... the plant is now mature and on his own..... he remembers his roots and yet is ready to explore  new horizons...  now at an advanced point of view and always on the look out for new and different points of view to reference his training with.  Looking for  innovative ways to improve what he learned and feels a sense of responsibility to pass on more than what he learned and with a higher degree of quality to keep the chain stronger not weaker.  Till the new soil and recondition it for an even more beneficial and productive crop..  Forever seeking advanced knowledge.... forever the student.........

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Why the change from the eye poke to a palm heel after the outward handsword?

Are there any other techniques that were changed like this?


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> Why the change from the eye poke to a palm heel after the outward handsword?
> *



Who said there was a change here?

Here is the way we do that section..............


FIVE SWORDS (Front right step through roundhouse punch) 

.......... 
2.  Immediately strike to the right side of your opponent's neck with a right outward handsword. (This action should help to nullify the Height, Width, and Depth Zones of your opponent.)
3.  Pivot into a right forward bow (facing 12:00), as you execute 


- a left five-finger thrust (palm down) to your opponent's eyes, --


and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up). (The effect of this poke should snap your opponent's head back and away from you.)
4.  Having your opponent's head to move away from you, and his midsection to jut forward, take advantage of this anticipated response by (1) pivoting into a right neutral bow, (2) executing a right uppercut punch to your opponent's stomach, as (3) your left hand becomes a COCKING CHECK (guarding horizontally......... 

:asian:


----------



## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)*



How come when I wrote that in one of my explanations I got 'Blah Blah you obviously don't do EPAK have you never even heard of point of origin' from Clyde?

Ian.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _*
> 
> How come when I wrote that in one of my explanations I got 'Blah Blah you obviously don't do EPAK have you never even heard of point of origin' from Clyde?
> 
> Ian. *



I have no idea what you are talking about...... wrote what?  

and yes, I DO DO EPAK, I learned directly from Ed Parker, did you?
LOL, and I knew of point of Origin befor Clyde was even in Kenpo.   What has that got to do with the statement?

:asian:


----------



## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> I have no idea what you are talking about...... wrote what?
> *



Wrote what I quoted above:

"and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)"

I was just saying, when I wrote that in one of my explanations Clyde seemed to think I was writing it down poorly and it couldn't possibly be EPAK, and nobody disagreed with him; yet it's the way the EPAK people are doing 5 Swords...

Just seems a little contradictory to me.

Ian.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _*
> Wrote what I quoted above:
> 
> "and your right hand cocks at your right hip (fist clenched and palm up)"
> 
> I was just saying, when I wrote that in one of my explanations Clyde seemed to think I was writing it down poorly and it couldn't possibly be EPAK, and nobody disagreed with him; yet it's the way the EPAK people are doing 5 Swords...
> 
> Just seems a little contradictory to me.
> 
> *



First of all, What Clyde or any other Kenpo Individual says has nothing to do with what I personally do or do not do.   If Clyde disagreed with whatever you were talking about, just because I nor anyone else came into the conversation does not mean that I agree or disagree (I didn't comment), that's all.

My response was to another individual about the fingers, but even so......  there are possibly different minor takes on 5 swords (in this case the specific technique we are talking about), execution.  This is just my base application and explanation based upon Ed Parkers journals that I follow.

I would be more than happy to give you my opinion on what it is that you are doing if you would like ....... just ask a specific question, so we can be on the same page and start from ground  0.  

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

I asked the question about 5 swords because I learned differently.

I was taught it this, by 2 different instructors:

After the block do a right outward handsword; then a left palm heel to chin; right upset punch to solar plexus; left outward handsword to left jaw hinge; right downward handsword to back of neck.

I never knew about the finger strikes until I read about it and I had thought that Mr. Parker had changed it. My current instructor was talking about it and had said that he taught with the palm heel to avoid everyone poking eyes out. Just thought I'd get GD's take on it.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Many people change the techniques from time to time for different reasons............. all could still work effectively.....
 

:asian: 

that's the way I do it........


----------



## Seig

Like I told one of my students last night, now you have a variation in your arsenal.


----------



## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> First of all, What Clyde or any other Kenpo Individual says has nothing to do with what I personally do or do not do.   If Clyde disagreed with whatever you were talking about, just because I nor anyone else came into the conversation does not mean that I agree or disagree (I didn't comment), that's all.
> 
> My response was to another individual about the fingers, but even so......  there are possibly different minor takes on 5 swords (in this case the specific technique we are talking about), execution.  This is just my base application and explanation based upon Ed Parkers journals that I follow.
> 
> I would be more than happy to give you my opinion on what it is that you are doing if you would like ....... just ask a specific question, so we can be on the same page and start from ground  0.
> 
> :asian: *



I'm not disagreeing, I don't think I worded my grievence very well, never mind, doesn't matter anyway!

Forget I mentioned it.

Ian.


----------



## Goldendragon7

If I did misunderstand you.. please restate that which you wish to discuss again, and we can take another stab at it.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Many people change the techniques from time to time for different reasons............. all could still work effectively.....
> 
> 
> :asian:
> 
> that's the way I do it........ *



Five swords was taught to me with a left thrusting heel palm to the chin. The reason for that was _"because"_ in actual combat you may get a four finger poke to the forhead, or side of face or etc. it depends upon the reaction of the attacker. Now to keep from jamming fingers it was taught as the heel palm strike. Yet we can not forget the name of this technique *Five Swords*. I personally like the heel palm and trust it just a little bit more but there's nothing wrong with the original version. This is just my take.
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7

on your recent Black Belt promotion.  Next step!!

Now I can hammer on you more since you are a higher rank!

:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *on your recent Black Belt promotion.  Next step!!
> 
> Now I can hammer on you more since you are a higher rank!
> 
> :asian: *



Thank you Mr. C. that means a lot to me. I hope that I can just keep up with the questions back at me. Remember also I felt one of your not so hard punches and strikes    I'm just a little guy you can't break me in half Heather might not want to talk to you any more. 
Thanks again,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## BKSB

MR. C :


REGARDING THE PREVIOUS POSTS ON THE 5 SWORDS,
i'M A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT THERE IS A LACK OF USING
A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE
THIRD MOVE.  5 SWORDS...5 OPEN HAND STRIKES...
mY WEB OF KNOWLEDGE OVER THE YEARS HAS BECOME A
COBWEB OF SENILTY NOT ABLE TO DISCERN NEW IDEAS
FROM THE ANCIENT SCRIBES.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by BKSB _
> 
> *MR. C :
> 
> 
> REGARDING THE PREVIOUS POSTS ON THE 5 SWORDS,
> i'M A LITTLE SURPRISED THAT THERE IS A LACK OF USING
> A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE
> THIRD MOVE.  5 SWORDS...5 OPEN HAND STRIKES...
> mY WEB OF KNOWLEDGE OVER THE YEARS HAS BECOME A
> COBWEB OF SENILTY NOT ABLE TO DISCERN NEW IDEAS
> FROM THE ANCIENT SCRIBES. *



Please detail a little more..... Im not sure I understand you ........

:asian:


----------



## Rainman

> A VERTICAL 4 FINGER THRUST TO THE SOLAR PLEXUS ON THE  ON THE THIRD MOVE



Fourth move
1.  doulbe handswords to the attacking arm
2.   rt. out ward handsword to the neck 
3   left 4 finger thrust to the eyes
4.  right uppercut to the solar plexus, or xyphoid process- You could potentially break your fingers if not conditioned is probably why most don't use the spear hand strike these days.    Potentially lethal that is for sure though
5.  move up the circle and executle a left out ward handsword to the left side of the neck.
6. right inward diaganally downward handsword to back of neck.

So six open hand strikes one closed if you do it that way otherwise 7 open hand strikes... It is my understanding the tek was originally called slicing the sun and ended with the strike to the solar plexus with a spearhand.  Later changed to five swords with 2 additional strikes + extension.


----------



## Roland

And that even the Inward bock was done open handed.

 

Maybe that was just another variation, or a different technique all together.


----------



## kenpokid

Hi

I passed my black belt and i know i have a long way to go. But i think you are doing a great job as you are not only helping the beginners with their questions you are helping people like me. You are helping me learn about questions that i might get asked by the people i get to teach.
I was wondering as it was mentioned was do you know short form 4 and if so do you have a written version as i would like to know what it is as i knew there was one but it is not taught in my system.

Well thanks


----------



## Scott Bonner

From what I've heard, there are many Short 4 forms, as lots of people have felt the need for easing students into Form 4, but there is no "official" short 4.

Peace,
Scott


----------



## kenpo3631

_The opinions of the poster do not reflect anyone elses thoughts other than the poster....._  

It is my understanding that Five Swords was originally taught with the finger poke following the outward handsword to the neck. 

Later... along came Jim Mitchell. I beleive Mr. Mitchell inputted the heelpalm strike. So it became as the heelpalm strike drove the opponents head back the fingers extended into his eyes. 

I feel that because Mr. Parker encouraged experimentation he allowed it to be taught that way. He must have approved in some way b/c I have seen many do it that way.

I personally don't do the heelpalm, I use the finger poke. If you heelpalm the chin your opponent, his head is tilted back and the eye poke is lost. I *do*  however teach my kid students to do a heelpalm, for safety and control issues. I also show the adults initially with a heelpalm until their control becomes better , than we drop it and go with the finger poke.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

I have always done a eye shot........

Mitchell had nothing to do with it.  

In fact, after the eye shot Mr. Parker showed me a minor insert that I thought was cool which was an immediate heelpalm (downward) with the left (retracting) hand while the right uppercut punch was in route.

I thought that was cool.....

:asian:


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I have always done a eye shot........
> 
> Mitchell had nothing to do with it.
> 
> In fact, after the eye shot Mr. Parker showed me a minor insert that I thought was cool which was an immediate heelpalm (downward) with the left (retracting) hand while the right uppercut punch was in route.
> 
> I thought that was cool.....
> 
> :asian: *



I agree!  That is cool!!


----------



## Goldendragon7

if not..... lets hear from you.....

:asian:


----------



## kenpo3631

> I have always done a eye shot........Mitchell had nothing to do with it.



Hmmm, I have seen tapes with Mr. Parker narrating step by step as Mitchell did all the techniques and the heel palm was in there.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

I may have the very same tape..... it was given to me by Mr. Parker, but I was not to follow it verbatim.  He showed me the way I explained above, and thats how I still do it.   I have seen many Tracy guys do that move that way.  

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I may have the very same tape..... it was given to me by Mr. Parker, but I was not to follow it verbatim.  He showed me the way I explained above, and thats how I still do it.   I have seen many Tracy guys do that move that way.
> 
> :asian: *



About time you mentioned me!:rofl:


----------



## Klondike93

Did Mr. Parker ever strap on the gloves and do some sparring with you guys?



:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

he never wore golves........ LOL it was pain pain and more pain.....

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *he never wore golves........ LOL it was pain pain and more pain.....
> 
> :asian: *


He must have had hands like iron, beating on all those thick skulls


----------



## Goldendragon7

Hot Iron....... it stings........


:asian:


----------



## kenpokid

Is short form 4 worth learning and is it good, Do you know where i can get a couple of the form written up or even on video.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by kenpokid _
> 
> *Is short form 4 worth learning and is it good, Do you know where i can get a couple of the form written up or even on video. *



The Tracy's have the form on video.


----------



## Goldendragon7




----------



## kenpo3631

Maybe this can get you thinking...Short 4


----------



## Goldendragon7

just like short 5 and 6 as well.
:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *just like short 5 and 6 as well.
> :asian: *



Never heard of 5&6. Could it be you're holding out on us Golden One?


----------



## Goldendragon7

You just read it.

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *You just read it.
> 
> :asian: *



Where?


----------



## Michael Billings

Mr. Conatser,

Are you still teaching Book Set, Sil Lum 6, Mass Attacks, Kenpo Spear Set, Sa Quan, and Tiger and Crane as part of your required curriculum?

-Michael
UKS-Texas


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _*
> Mr. Conatser,
> Are you still teaching Book Set, Sil Lum 6, Mass Attacks, Kenpo Spear Set, Sa Quan, and Tiger and Crane as part of your required curriculum?  Michael UKS-Texas
> *



No........... optional only!


:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

I was going to ask this question on another thread, but decided to post here in hopes of not getting lost in that disscussion.

It's about the sets, specifically all the #2 sets, Kicking set 2, Finger set 2 etc..  When were they come up with and do you know who came up with them? Prehaps you also know who came up with the 1st sets as well?



:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _*
> When & who came up with all the # 2 sets; Stance, Blocking, Striking, Finger, Kicking, & Coordination set 2?
> *



I believe that Jim Mitchell who was from San Diego at the time had a main hand in them with Mr. Parker.  These were in the early 80's if my memory serves me correct.

*



			Perhaps you also know who came up with the 1st sets as well?
		
Click to expand...

*
To my knowledge Mr. Parker came up with the general ideas for all of them based upon the categories of Basics.  He had the Star Block exercise (Now called the Blocking Set #1) and the Finger Set back in the 60's.  Tom Kelly developed the Kicking Set # 1, and Chuck Sullivan penned the Staff Set # 1.  

Jim Mitchell (who I have had personal differences with as well as other seniors) could also have been involved in the remaining # 1 sets.  I can't be absolutely sure, but it really doesn't matter.

I can say this however.... "regardless" of who developed them.... *NONE* - None would have made it into the system had Mr. Parker not thoroughly reviewed them and accepted them as good training additions to the curriculum.  He put his "life" into his System and he was not about to "spoil" it with worthless training drills.

That you can take to the bank!!

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93

Done   



:asian:


----------



## kenpochip

Mr. Conatser,

Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"?  Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ?   Any examples?   I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.


Thanks,

KenpoChip


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _
> 
> *Mr. Conatser,
> 
> Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"?  Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ?   Any examples?   I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> KenpoChip *



This is not my QnA but Mr. Parker Jr. discusses this in The Journey which you can get from Mr. Conatser by the way.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> Did Mr. Parker ever teach something one way and then later explicitly retract that lesson and say it was "wrong"?  Or would he just say as he evolved his system that a new way was "better" ?   Any examples?   I am interested in how the need for change was discovered and how changes were implemented.
> *


No, I can't recall him ever retracting in that fashion and can't recall him saying "wrong".

Ok here is an example of one such "change" or evolution for Kicking Set #1..........

One of my students of the time came to me after much study on the Kicking set # 1.   He explained to me what he had discovered and why..... and then asked if there was a reason for this......... After careful examination of what he told me, I called Mr. Parker and explained to him the scenario and offered an adjustment on the 4th wall of kicking set.  Mr. Parker asked me a few questions about it and why we wanted to "adjust it" and told me he would get back to me.

A couple of days later he called me back and told me that after examining the fourth wall further that I had a good idea and he was going to change it to what my student has suggested.   

I was shocked but pleased.  From then on.... the fourth wall starts with a roundhouse instead of the original front kick making each wall start with a different kick.... wall 1 - front kick, wall 2 - knife edge kick, wall 3 - rear kick, wall 4 - roundhouse kick thus each wall  starts with the four base kicks to our system.

:asian:


----------



## kenpochip

Mr. Conatser,

Thanks for the good example.

Are any changes like that still happening in your organization?
Would this sort of thing be something that the AKSC might in the future decide to coordinate, or is that too low level a detail?


KenpoChip


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> Are any changes like that still happening in your organization?
> *



Yes, what better way to make improvements or adjustments if needed!



> *
> Would this sort of thing be something that the AKSC might in the future decide to coordinate, or is that too low level a detail?
> *



No, never too low level.  Yes, it would be great to have the AKSC develop a broad base of baisics that could be considered by many yet still adjustable........ Let's hope we can get it together.

:asian:


----------



## Dun Ringill

What's the difference between Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo and Ed Parker's American Kenpo?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _*
> What's the difference between Ed Parker's Chinese Kenpo and Ed Parker's American Kenpo?
> *



Depending upon who or what area of the country you are in but in general....... 

Chinese Kenpo -- was a term used in the 60's and 70's (mostly by different instructors not Ed Parker) to describe Kenpo in it's early stages (many times it was rooted in Tracy curriculums and contained Chinese forms due to lack of Parker forms) of Ed Parker development and evolution.

American Kenpo was a term started by Ed Parker himself, in the early 80's to his updated Kenpo system and distinguish it from others that had broken away and formed their own groups.

:asian:


----------



## Dun Ringill

Sir,

Thank you for your reply.  I enjoy reading the history and the evolution of Kenpo from all aspects.  I've really enjoyed your current thread and find it incredibly valuable that you have opened yourself up to questions on this forum.

Oss,

Dun Ringill


----------



## Goldendragon7

the latest round of questions?

:asian:


----------



## Dominic Jones

Hi Mr C

Do you target nerve points when you execute techniques.  I am interested in nerve points and wonder what is the best way to learn about them.

Cheers Dominic


----------



## Goldendragon7

first you need to learn all the points which takes some background in accupuncture so find a good source and start your journey understanding the meridians and hot spots.

Contact Steve LaBounty he can give you some good starting reference sources.....

:asian:


----------



## Dominic Jones

Thank you Mr C

I will contact Mr LaBounty.


----------



## Kirk

When doing a simple forward vertical punch to the face, you step
forward and execute the punch before landing your foot, correct?

This is utilizing forward momentum, but is it also marriage of
gravity?  You're going forward, yet down .. or does it even play
a part at all?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> When doing a simple forward vertical punch to the face, you step
> forward and execute the punch before landing your foot, correct?
> *



You can step or you can simply rotate..... it depends on what you are trying to accomplish.  Either way you should NOT complete the punch prior to the foot action.... thus making separate movements but rather combine the body, footwork and arm action simultaneously.   There are many variations and timings for this type of move, this is just one scenario.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> This is utilizing forward momentum, but is it also marriage of
> gravity?  You're going forward, yet down .. or does it even play
> a part at all?
> *



Yes, you are going forward and down but if your punch has reached the target prior to the foot landing then you only have forward momentum not both.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

Well, that answers that question, thank you. :asian:


----------



## satans.barber

Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?

Ian.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?
> 
> Ian. *



Oooh, good question!


----------



## C.E.Jackson

Why is Mr Jackson's nickname "Bulk"? - Oops.... never mind!:rofl:


----------



## brianhunter

Mr. C,

    When did you realize that Kenpo would be what you do for your lifes passion? What point in your training or life where you when you came to that decision?

Reguards

B Hunter


----------



## Seig

Dear Ladies, gentleman and the rest of you.  I cannot say wether or not Mr. Conatser will be online or not for a minimum of another 24 hours.  Mr. Conatser is currently in the state of Virginia, which tomorrow I will make a quest to free him from.  We should be able to smuggle him back to Arizona by Sunday or so.  I will try to get him to sign on and say Howdy some time tomorrow from Casa/Chez Seigel


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Why is Mr. Planas' nickname 'Huk'?
> Ian. *



It is a nickname for a Filipino.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> Mr. C,
> When did you realize that Kenpo would be what you do for your lifes passion? What point in your training or life where you when you came to that decision?
> Reguards B Hunter
> *



When I got my school and started teaching 60 hour weeks and living 7 day Kenpo weeks and gave up on everything else.    lol

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> Why is Mr Jackson's nickname "Bulk"?
> *



He loves Burger King!  :rofl:


----------



## C.E.Jackson

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> He loves Burger King!  :rofl: *



and McDonalds
and Hardies
and Dairy Queen
and...
:rofl:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Dear Ladies, gentleman and the rest of you.  I cannot say wether or not Mr. Conatser will be online or not for a minimum of another 24 hours.  Mr. Conatser is currently in the state of Virginia, which tomorrow I will make a quest to free him from.  We should be able to smuggle him back to Arizona by Sunday or so.  I will try to get him to sign on and say Howdy some time tomorrow from Casa/Chez Seigel *



Ya shouda kept him over there, so that I can free up the Southwest for myself!


----------



## Seig

No way, he has the SouthWest and I'm working on the east coast.  Although, we're not sure we want Texas, we may allow you to keep it.      But I would not count on it.....


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *No way, he has the SouthWest and I'm working on the east coast.  Although, we're not sure we want Texas, we may allow you to keep it.      But I would not count on it..... *



It time to go "Underground". The battle for Texas is beginning!


----------



## ikenpo

How does Trejo say it....

"Step to the best..."


So says the natural born killa...


----------



## jfarnsworth

What is club set? Where did it come from? How does it differ from any other set? & how did it get in the curriculum?
 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> What is club set # 1?
> Jason Farnsworth *



A beginning Kenpo Club Set



> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> Where did it come from?
> Jason Farnsworth *



Mr. Parker



> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> How does it differ from any other set? & how did it get in the curriculum? Salute, Jason Farnsworth
> *



Club Set # 1,  is a little more basic and definition oriented, the 7 is more application oriented.

Mr. Parker added it to 1st Black "around" 1989. 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> It time to go "Underground". The battle for Texas is beginning!
> *



You could run but you can't hide from me.  Besides I like you!:rofl: 

I just may have to put a short leash on you.:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

Why in form 6 do we cover so oddly from broken rod to defying the rod? I know it's to show the angles of the x pattern but it's such an odd movement for kenpo. My guess is it's because we haven't cover stepped like this yet. 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> Why in form 6 do we cover so oddly from broken rod to defying the rod? I know it's to show the angles of the x pattern but it's such an odd movement for kenpo. My guess is it's because we haven't cover stepped like this yet. Salute,Jason Farnsworth *



Look closely at the angles and compare these to the other gun attacks.

direction
method
path
dimension

:asian:


----------



## kenposcum

I had made up my mind to read this entire thread, but about forty minutes later, I changed my mind.  I have homework to do!  (I'll read it later, I promise!)
Mr. Conaster, do you remember me?  We chit-chatted for awhile in Las Vegas this June, you introduced me to Jade (Jayde?) Parker and referred me to this site.  
Anyway, real questions: my school broke off from the Tracy lineage long ago and kind of sort of went independent.  Now my instructor has vaguely expressed a desire to get "Parkerized," as I suppose the nomemclature goes.  What is involved in such a transition? Would it merely be learning what we don't know and changing the cirriculuum?  Are there big fees to pay beyond educational expenses?  Can I still practice Tiger-Crane, and Book-set and Setting Sun katas and any non-EPKK semi-Kenpo techniques I feel are legit or useful?
What was the whole deal with the Tracy brothers and their split from Mr. Parker?  Was it just "all about the Benjamins" or what?  We talked about it a tiny bit in Vegas, but it seemed like you were sort of holding back, like maybe you didn't want to hurt my feelings.   I don't know much about the political aspects of these things, I just know what I see (or believe what I feel )  and the whole lineage thing doesn't really seem all that important to me (you know, it's not your instructor's instructor who teaches you, except maybe later if you're conscientitous enough).  
How many branches of Kenpo from Master Parker are there?  I know Tracy Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, obviously EPKK, but what else?  It seems that there's a lot of political jockeying, what's the whole deal?
Anyway, Mr. Conaster, I think this thread is an awesome idea and thank you again for referring me to this site.  I enjoyed speaking with you in LV (I especially enjoyed your rendition of the Bruce Lee/student scene from "Enter the Dragon."  Ever catch the uncut one?  He's talking with his master, and the master goes, "What is the highest technique you aspire to?" and Bruce goes, "To have no technique."  I bet Master Parker would have had fun ripping THAT one apart (as per Infinite Insights Vol. 1).
Anyway, thanks!!!:asian:


----------



## Stick Dummy

Mr C.,

Who the heck is this Sam Ting  guy??????? 


  This one is gonna be an all weekend thread to read up and absorb.


Newbie question (with utmost respect :asian:  )


  I recently witnessed a Senior Kenpo Instructor demonstrate a flurry of open hand techniques which distinctly resembled Penchat Silat strikes. 

In the Kenpo lineage, is there any distinct link with this style as in early cross training with Penjakers?? possibly a Hawaiian island era influence?

or is it simply a parallel evolution?


humbley,


----------



## practiceisnotperfect

I have a question about William K S chow "Thunderbolt", I was reading about him somewhere and I came across the fact that he made it to 15th degree blackbelt. My instructor in the Tracy system holds a 10th degree and he says he can't go any higher. Did K S learn moves that know one else ever learned? Thank you for helping me learn about kenpo


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by practiceisnotperfect _
> 
> *I have a question about William K S chow "Thunderbolt", I was reading about him somewhere and I came across the fact that he made it to 15th degree blackbelt. My instructor in the Tracy system holds a 10th degree and he says he can't go any higher. Did K S learn moves that know one else ever learned? Thank you for helping me learn about kenpo *


My understanding of this may be flawed and over simplified; but here goes.  Professor Chow felt that since Mr. Parker had been his student and orginally certified by him and the fact that Mr. Parker was a 10th, that he (Chow) should out rank Mr. Parker.  Mr. Parker then explained to P. Chow that yes, he did originally certify him but the system was his own, not P. Chow's.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _*
> I had made up my mind to read this entire thread, but about forty minutes later, I changed my mind.  I have homework to do!  (I'll read it later, I promise!)
> Mr. Conaster, do you remember me?  We chit-chatted for awhile in Las Vegas this June, you introduced me to Jade (Jayde?) Parker and referred me to this site.
> Anyway, real questions: my school broke off from the Tracy lineage long ago and kind of sort of went independent.  Now my instructor has vaguely expressed a desire to get "Parkerized," as I suppose the nomemclature goes.  What is involved in such a transition? Would it merely be learning what we don't know and changing the cirriculuum?  Are there big fees to pay beyond educational expenses?  Can I still practice Tiger-Crane, and Book-set and Setting Sun katas and any non-EPKK semi-Kenpo techniques I feel are legit or useful?
> What was the whole deal with the Tracy brothers and their split from Mr. Parker?  Was it just "all about the Benjamins" or what?  We talked about it a tiny bit in Vegas, but it seemed like you were sort of holding back, like maybe you didn't want to hurt my feelings.   I don't know much about the political aspects of these things, I just know what I see (or believe what I feel )  and the whole lineage thing doesn't really seem all that important to me (you know, it's not your instructor's instructor who teaches you, except maybe later if you're conscientitous enough).
> How many branches of Kenpo from Master Parker are there?  I know Tracy Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, obviously EPKK, but what else?  It seems that there's a lot of political jockeying, what's the whole deal?
> Anyway, Mr. Conaster, I think this thread is an awesome idea and thank you again for referring me to this site.  I enjoyed speaking with you in LV (I especially enjoyed your rendition of the Bruce Lee/student scene from "Enter the Dragon."  Ever catch the uncut one?  He's talking with his master, and the master goes, "What is the highest technique you aspire to?" and Bruce goes, "To have no technique."  I bet Master Parker would have had fun ripping THAT one apart (as per Infinite Insights Vol. 1).
> Anyway, thanks!!!:asian:
> *



Wow, a lot of very good questions.  I will email you and discuss the different questions.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

We're told Mr Parker developed 3 systems.  What year did the
current, 154 (155) based system come about?


----------



## Goldendragon7

1979-1982 as best as I can remember.....

but there were NO 3 systems...... each were extensions and evolutions of the others.  They were built upon from the beginning, just refined.

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

This is a Great Thread.

I think somewhere in here are the Master Key Techniques which have recently been discussed and posted again on another thread.

If you have not read this thread you should go through and read it.  At one point I printed it and put it in my notebook.

Mr. C is a great resource.


----------



## Kenpomachine

Thanks Doug for making me aware of where the famous faq was. I heard of it a while ago but couldn't find it.  

Lucía


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Look closely at the angles and compare these to the other gun attacks.
> 
> direction
> method
> path
> dimension
> 
> :asian: *




O.K. I know it's 2 months later but you are talking about the actual self-defense techniques themselves? In, out, up, down?


----------



## student

Sir,

Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why?  I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated.  

Oss!


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by student _
> *Sir,
> 
> Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why?  I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated.
> 
> Oss! *



Are you asking me????


----------



## student

I am asking Mr. Conaster.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Thanks Doug for making me aware of where the famous faq was. I heard of it a while ago but couldn't find it.
> 
> Lucía *



I  had trouble finding it myself.  It was one of the most popular threads for a long time.  I made that post to bring it back up to the surface where we could all readily find it again.

I was afraid it might have been lost after "the crash" but I'm glad it is still here.  I  need to read through it again before I ask another question though.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by student _*
> Sir,  Who were/are the most influencial individuals in your kenpo 'walk' and why?  I realize that some of this may be personal and anything you are willing to share would be greatly appriciated.  Oss!
> *



Well, I have to say that many had influence on me, but the "most" influential were......... 
1) my original instructor, Lonny Coots for starting me off with a great foundation.   
2) my friend, Tom Riskas for showing me how to learn from Ed Parker.
3) my next instructor, Steve LaBounty for inserting noble leadership and guidance, a unique historical perspective and a true training attitude.
4)  the founder of our system, Ed Parker for teaching me all the "details and fine tuning" of the system.

Like I said before  there were many more for one reason or another that had an effect on me (for that, read my bio on the
IKKO website.  www.ikko.com

:asian:


----------



## Bill Smith

If you get the chance to talk with Mr. Conaster in person or by phone, it's a good choice. Alot of history, knowledge and a straight up and good guy.

Mr. Conaster, did you ever get to Seig's for the seminar?

Bill Smith


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Bill Smith _*
> Mr. Conaster, did you ever get to Seig's for the seminar?
> *



I have had plenty of personal challenges taking care of my aged mother at home.  She is going down rapidly and a lot of work.  So, I could not get out for an extra visit befor our next Seminar in March of this year.  Hopefully, things will lighten up soon and I will be out there at least 4 times a year.

Thanks for the kind comments.

:asian:


----------



## Bill Smith

Sorry to hear that and I wish your mother the best and for a fast turn around, family always comes first.

Yours in Kenpo,
Bill Smith


----------



## Kenpomachine

Same here GD, my best wishes for her recovery.

Lucía


----------



## Goldendragon7

Just a normal part of life!

Thanks again for your thoughts!

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

May I ask the moderators to have this thread sticking in the forum?

 I find it quite interesting and instructive:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

What's on your mind?

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

I asked Huk, and he said it's a topic of MANY varying opinions, so
just asking for yours ... how did the name "reverse punch" come
about?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> I asked Huk, and he said it's a topic of MANY varying opinions, so just asking for yours ... how did the name "reverse punch" come about?
> *



I already answered that just 5 days ago on another thread.... but here it is again......

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3295&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

Now do 10 pushups for not paying attention before!!


----------



## Michael Billings

Circa 1970 it was a "Reverse Punch" and a "Lunge Punch", the only two puches we had.  Lunging was usually with lead hand as you steped through into a front stance (although it could be done with the back also.)

*The Reverse was only as Dennis Conatser described it.*

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

When you started studying with SGM Parker you were already a 3rd Dan/Degree (under the NCKKA). How long did it take you to work back through the system to learn the IKKA version of Kenpo to Black? to 3rd Black? Mr. Duffy mentioned to me that one time he attended a Huk Planas instructor seminar on forms and everything was pretty similar until they got to form Four and up. He said at that point the application of technique was dramatically different from what he had learned in the NCKKA. Did you find that same kind of experience? Also you had students at that time, did you find it easier learning and retaining the info by  teaching it? What did you teach, say a Brown belt, while you were learning the first few belts the IKKA way? 

jb


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

There has been a great deal of discussion about 24 vs 16 tech system. Were you brought up pre-32 or 24 system technique? Or were you under the 24 when you converted over to the IKKA? My question is if you had your choice which would you have preferred? Also if the 16 tech system had existed and you were brought up under it, what differences in your skill level and understand of the system do you think would exist today?

jb


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C,  When you started studying with SGM Parker you were already a 3rd Dan/Degree (under the NCKKA).
> jb *



No, I was a 2nd Degree.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> How long did it take you to work back through the system to learn the IKKA version of Kenpo to Black? to 3rd Black?
> jb *



Hell, I'm still learning it!!!  LOL,  Mr. Parker promoted me to 3rd after 3 years studying with him.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. Duffy mentioned to me that one time he attended a Huk Planas instructor seminar on forms and everything was pretty similar until they got to form Four and up. He said at that point the application of technique was dramatically different from what he had learned in the NCKKA. Did you find that same kind of experience?
> jb *



Pretty much, but there were many, many subtle differences throughout all the forms.  They may have "looked" the same, but what he showed me within them was dramatically expanded.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> You had students at that time, did you find it easier learning and retaining the info by  teaching it?
> jb *



Absolutely!



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> What did you teach, say a Brown belt, while you were learning the first few belts the IKKA way?
> jb *



I started at the bottom with Mr. Parker, (in fact I had to make him look at my basics and all the lower rank material..... LOL) I wanted to show him what I had and if it was correct we could move on... if not.... teach me.  I wanted to learn his system from the bottom up!

I in turn did the same with all my students (white thru Black) and I students in every belt categories.  It was a little hard at first but I managed to explain to them what they were getting and why,  Very, very few were disappointed.  The result were knowledgeable, skilled and well trained  instructors to carry on the Art.  

No regrets.

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

I remember us having a discussion about the type of people that take "Karate", and I don't know that it is as true as it once was. Some people actually see it as a form of exercise, but it is true that much of the interest is born out of some form of personal insecurity. My question is what type of person makes for a good student in your opinion? Is it heart? Are there certain attributes? Can you turn a person into a good student? If it is a commercial shop, is a good student one that makes the monthly payments regardless of commitment? 

jb


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C,
> There has been a great deal of discussion about 24 vs 16 tech system. Were you brought up pre-32 or 24 system technique?
> jb *



I was originally under the 32 system



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> If you had your choice which would you have preferred?
> jb *



Definitely the 16



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> If the 16 tech system had existed and you were brought up under it, what differences in your skill level and understand of the system do you think would exist today?
> jb *



First off, the number of techniques that one learns is not so important as the method/manner in which you are instructed, as well as the skills and knowledge of the person who is actually guiding you.  My development came from the leadership of my instructors at various critical times of my journey.  In the beginning mental skills were not as important as the physical skills, then as a brown belt competitive and instructional skills were necessary and thus started, then as a black belt the flower further blossomed with deep supporting knowledge which filled in areas that may have been lacking prior.  Now, continual research and study is a constant necessity to update or develop newer or greater understanding of the old.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C,
> I remember us having a discussion about the type of people that take "Karate", and I don't know that it is as true as it once was. Some people actually see it as a form of exercise, but it is true that much of the interest is born out of some form of personal insecurity.
> 
> My question is what type of person makes for a good student in your opinion? Is it heart? Are there certain attributes?
> jb *



There are several types of "good students" but in my humble opinion I define one as:

Committed to the Art
Attends regularly
Practices &  works hard on what is shown to them
Maintains a positive attitude
Always is interested in what is going on
Helps others when possible
Keeps commitments or arranges for alternatives
Makes measurable progress in reasonable time

These are the main characteristics I look for.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Can you turn a person into a good student?
> jb *



No.  I can only assist the student and guide the way, I am not there to force-feed and "make" them do anything.  If they are interested, listen, follow my guidance, and do the appreciate practice that is necessary for advancement, they can awaken, make progress, and develop the hidden skills/talents that they already possess within themselves.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> If it is a commercial studio, is a good student one that makes the monthly payments regardless of commitment?
> jb *



NOPE!  I have had several students that have either paid in full or make all their payments on time, but are the worst or most disappointing students that I have had.  I end up wasting time on wondering where they are or feeling guilty that I'm not giving them their moneys worth.  Some of my best students, paid very little money in exchange for "working" for their lessons, they paid with commitment, loyalty and dedication as well as much hard work.... they found that paying me might have been easier.......LOL.

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

Of course we all know that there will never be another, but could the system benefit from a person or persons that is (are) looked to as an Authority and that travels around as much as SGM Parker did? I know that there are several prominant higher ranking belts that have a regular circuit they hit every year, but they only do Kenpo schools primarily. Wouldn't the system be equally served if seminars were held at non-Kenpo schools more often? What made people more accepting (schools and instructors) to do this back in the day verses now?

jb


----------



## Goldendragon7

.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C,  Of course we all know that there will never be another "ED PARKER", but could the system benefit from a person or persons that is (are) looked to as an Authority and that travels around as much as SGM Parker did?
> jb *



Of Course!



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> I know that there are several prominent higher ranking belts that have a regular circuit they hit every year, but they only do Kenpo schools primarily. Wouldn't the system be equally served if seminars were held at non-Kenpo schools more often?
> jb *



Sure, but even when Mr. Parker was "on the circuit", the bulk of the studios or groups were Kenpo Based.  Very few dis-similar systems had a Kenpo Seminar.  Of course there were and are other studios invited to many of the Kenpo Seminars today with the exception of a few, but the material base is and has always been American Kenpo.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> What made people more accepting (schools and instructors) to do this back in the day verses now?
> jb *



Like I said prior, the bulk of the seminars were Kenpo Based but many did invite outside systems to view what we had to offer.

I believe that today, with the many organizations that we have many have become sectional and are smaller over-all and the "Quality of the Promotion" by the host is an issue as well as the state of the economy.  Many do not want other systems..... I personally love to have other systems present at my seminars.  (I claim bragging rights.... lol!)

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into thier kenpo schools, yet
some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
"find it".  

So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into their kenpo schools, yet
> some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
> "find it".
> *



Your instructor should be able to show you how to manipulate the techniques and open your eyes as to what is there that you don't see yet.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
> There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
> heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ.
> *



I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?

There are Kenpo Grappling Seminars....... that I know of but they are mostly kept within their respective organizations and not been exploited publicly to any great degree.  Buy I agree that you rarely hear of them..... but you will hear more in the future.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?
> *



Ah, so we're playing the nit picking game of "technicallity" now,
huh?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Ah, so we're playing the nit picking game of "technicallity" now,
> huh?
> *



If I show ya....... I'll have to kill ya.......

:samurai:


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *A lot of kenpoists are bringing BJJ into thier kenpo schools, yet
> some say that grappling is already built into kenpo, you just gotta
> "find it".
> 
> So how come no one has created some grappling techniques?
> There's no kenpo grappling seminars, or techniques that I've
> heard of .. everyone just goes and studies BJJ. *



Kirk, try to check out a Martin Wheeler seminar if you get the chance. He has some tapes on kenpo ground fighting that I understand from my instructor are very good (they're pretty good friends). He's going to be here in Colorado on March 15 doing a Systema seminar on ground fighting but I'm pretty sure he still does kenpo seminars too.


:asian: 

Klondike


----------



## Elfan

Kirk, Kenpo2000 has some Kenpo grappling techniques integrated with the curriculum


----------



## Kempojujutsu

My students are required to learn Grappling techniques for different belt ranks. But I don't teach EPAK, or Tracy's Kenpo. More of bend of Chinese, Okinawan, and American Kempo Jujutsu.
Bob


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Your instructor should be able to show you how to manipulate the techniques and open your eyes as to what is there that you don't see yet.*



I think his question was, "Is there an American Kenpo curriculum that operates from the horizontal ideal phase and shows the principles of logic applied to the ground game, seriously? Or is everyone just formulating ideas? Did SGM Parker ever set anything in stone in regards to this? I remember back in the day, blue belt ground defense, but that was about it. I'm sure there have been quite a few black belt thesis on this topic, but I could be wrong.




> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> [B
> I am guessing that you have been around for quite some time and <know> that "NO ONE" has created Kenpo Grappling Techniques, or are you just saying that you personally have not heard of any from anyone that you personally have talked to?
> 
> There are Kenpo Grappling Seminars....... that I know of but they are mostly kept within their respective organizations and not been exploited publicly to any great degree.  Buy I agree that you rarely hear of them..... but you will hear more in the future.
> 
> :asian: [/B]



The two that I've heard of specifically are Mr. Sanchez (saw an article on Kenpo used horizontally to cancel zones) and Mr. Mills, he has a vid on his website of a technique being done from the ground. I'm pretty sure Mr. Hancock has formulated some good stuff on this topic as well. It is unfortunate that there isn't a standard ground game for Kenpo, but then again some would argue there isn't a "standard" stand up game either... 

jb:asian:


----------



## Elfan

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I think his question was, "Is there an American Kenpo curriculum that operates from the horizontal ideal phase and shows the principles of logic applied to the ground game, seriously?*



This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal.  The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands.  Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.



> I'm pretty sure Mr. Hancock has formulated some good stuff on this topic as well.


Yep he has.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal.  The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands.  Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.*



Certainly you know that I'm referring to an "ideal" response vs the "what if" and formulation stages...and not being on the ground as being the ideal position to be in...unless of course your the Machados or Gracies...and there aren't one,two or three other guys standing around waiting to stomp a mud hole into your a** when you get good and pre-occupied with your ground scenario. 

jb:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> * Yep he has. *



I know this is GD7's area, so could you elaborate in a seperate topic thread how Mr. Hancock has logically broken down ground scenarios?

Thanks, jb:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *This is just a side point/ramble of mine not related to the history of formal "ground stuf" in EPAK but being horizontal is NOT ideal.  The base of Kenpo is staying on your feet and striking with your hands.  Ground stuf is very important, critical even, but it shoudn't be the base of your art and its not the ideal place to be.*



This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.

"5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69

This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground.  He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.

I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch."  Ha, ha.  I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.

When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK.  Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.

If he can get him there. 

Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art.  Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set  2" or "Striking Set 2."  Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.

Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *This is an excellent point and a good place for me to quote Mr. Parker on this because I think it supports Elfan's point and I've been looking for a good excuse to bring it up.
> 
> "5. Holds and Hugs -- These in turn are more difficult because of the restriction of body movement and the limited number of available weapons and targets, as well as a real danger of being taken to the ground." - Infinite Insights Book 5, pg 69
> 
> This is one of the first times I noticed Mr. Parker addressing the ground.  He addresses it as some place that you don't want to go and I also take this to mean that it is something to be avoided and that our system is primarily concerned with keeping you from going there.
> 
> I don't know if he ever wrote similarly about the "real danger of being thrown a right roundhouse punch."  Ha, ha.  I mean we Want that to happen. We are ready for that attack.
> 
> When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK.  Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.
> 
> If he can get him there.
> 
> Anyway, I think Elfan makes a good point and I think Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art.  Otherwise we might have the Guard, Mount and Side Mount "somewhere" on the charts, instead of maybe "Kicking Set  2" or "Striking Set 2."  Or even "Kicking Set" for that matter.
> 
> Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
> *



Well,

I understand the frame of reference that you are coming from, and I respectfully disagree with most of what you said. Also just keep on your leopard skin thong, GD7 probably won't be too hard on you at all. :rofl: 

jb:asian:


----------



## cdhall

Thanks JB,

In all the 154 Techniques there is not one where you are on the ground and your opponent is on the ground with you/attacking you.

That is really my point.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> I know this is GD7's area, so could you elaborate a little on how you have logically broken down ground scenarios?Thanks, jb
> *



Ok, I'll give you some hints...

The principles for grappling are the same as for stand up (vertical plane) defenses, but on a "horizontal plane", understanding the Kenpo Tools are a great source to aid you in this undertaking (knowledge of universal pattern, analytical study of motion are   two that are extremely useful).   A couple of quick examples are:

Ok........ Let's take [Dance of Death] {Frontal Attack}..... when adapted to "Kenpo Grappling" the initial moves are nothing more than an aggressive single leg take-down, then maneuver into the [Sleeper] to apply the choke to submission.

The [Grasp of Death] {side choke while kneeling}..... is adapted to free yourself from the choke and maneuver into an arm-bar choke combination.

I know you may or may not be able to interpret exactly what I mean without actually seeing or feeling but it will at least start you thinking.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> In all the 154 Techniques there is not one where you are on the ground and your opponent is on the ground with you/attacking you.  That is really my point.
> *



Hang on Guys......... hang on...........!!!!!!

CD.... you are exactly right, there is not an exact drawn out curriculum pictured in "Technicolor" for anyone! Yet, realize that grappling attacks take place in a [Phase] that you probably have not been ready for yet or placed much attention to.  That "Phase" is the "what if" ......... i.e., what if you are on the ground or in a headlock on the ground..... etc etc.  

The answers lie in what has already been taught to you however, you may not fully comprehend or really understood the Kenpo Tools that would allow you to realize that the principles (which you know) are or can be applied to any plane of action {path}.... vertical, horizontal or diagonal or any other "measure of degree"!  When also inserting the <8 considerations>........ Acceptance - Environment - Range -  Position - Maneuvers - Targets - Natural Weapons & Natural  Defenses, you will discover that you COULD APPLY WITH A LITTLE "FORMULATION"* defensive actions ==that you are already familiar with== to aid you in the discovery of old applications to seemingly new scenarios.

Yes, we are digging deep into the Kenpo System now but keep in mind that this is NOT a topical ART!!  It does in fact have layers and they are not fiction.  The revelation is much like that of the Bible...... what you read is not always what you see...... you must sometimes look beyond a basic "interpretation" {designed for the  beginners}and meaning to find additional wisdom {extracted and used only by those that have an expanded vocabulary of motion}.

This stuff is not pipe dream or mystical material only held by certain individuals...... I personally know a few that understand what I am talking about.  Yet, others have no clue and call it fantasy....... 

well, that's ok, because...... "You only know what you know ..... not what I know".

Now....... additional cross training for some is of great assistance and in no means a bad thing..... some need the examples and assistance of other recources...... that's brilliant!!  Dig where you need to dig..... the gold doesn't come to you....... No one said it was an easy journey all the time.  hee heee

:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Now....... additional cross training for some is of great assistance and in no means a bad thing..... some need the examples and assistance of other recources...... that's brilliant!!  Dig where you need to dig..... the gold doesn't come to you....... No one said it was an easy journey all the time.  hee heee
> :asian: *



This I agree with very much so SIR! I've tried to say this many times over and made a lot of people angry when I've said something similar. Maybe it was in the delivery.  Anyway there are people out there that can take your knowledge and tweak it a little and make that tech. a lot better or give just a little better understanding.:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.
> *



A good individual with ANY sort of training should <never> be underestimated (including grapplers and boxers).   The ideal phase only "STARTS" the process of self defense.... you -must- advance on to skilled opponents at some point unless you only want train to defend yourself against un-skilled opponents [at the entry level of training].  The ideal phase only gives you a start in the system (1/3) and establishes the basics.... the next phase, is where you really start to learn the application and adaptation process.... {I realize many have not understood this or are not there yet} to take that "base" to yet another level.  This is really where the "rubber meets the road" not in the beginning levels much like in elementary school curriculums vs. college training and then adaptation to the "real world".

You must have been referring to a "Beginning" pure EPAK student, not one of the skilled advanced students that really knows, has developed and trained what he/she has, right?



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Mr. Parker was concerned primarily with developing a stand-up striking art.
> *



Correct........ that was higher on his priority list for the system but not the "only" area he wanted to address!  



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Now I'll go get my asbestos underwear because Mr. C will be here soon to straighten me out.
> *



LOL... make sure it is double lined and have "Shuttle Tiles" coating the outside........:rofl: 

Actually, this reminds me of a story Mr. Parker used to tell in these salutations... (excerpt from upcoming book... "Warrior Tales...... American Kenpo's Best Loved Stories" by Dennis Conatser)

THE HANDYMAN

For a present to his son, a man purchased a bicycle that his boy had his eyes on for some time, then had it delivered to his house.  When the box arrived he realized that it was in parts and not put together.  The man was a little upset that he now had to assemble this bike and that his son would be home from school in only 3 hours which would spoil the surprise and also that his son would surely want to try it out immediately upon seeing it.

The man unboxed the bicycle and separated what seemed to be a thousand pieces.  He sat down with the instructions, but after about an hour, frustration set in and he decided to call his friend who was a handyman and ask for assistance.

Fortunately the handyman was available to come over immediately and start the project.  As he walked in the garage he saw the bicycle with its many parts on the floor.  The man handed the handyman the instructions and stepped back to watch.  The handyman laid down  the instructions and immediately started in on the assembling of this bike.  Within 30 minutes the handyman was totally finished and the bike was ready for use.

The man was totally amazed at not only the speed in which the handyman worked but the fact that he didnt ONCE pick up the instructions to help with the assembly!  I tried to do what you did but I could not make any sense of the booklet! The man then asked the handyman .. How is it that you could put this contraption together and yet not a single occasion did you once check the instruction manual?

The handyman laughed and then said; Fact is sir, that I cant read,.............. and if you cant read........ You gotta think!

So too is it with our truly unique system of American Kenpo, even though the system is curriculumized to a great degree you can't hold everyone's hands forever..... you have to ....... well ............. think!

:asian:


----------



## Ginsu

> When I read this I thought that Mr. Parker was admitting that we didn't have a developed ground fighting system in EPAK. Of course we have stuff that works on the ground and we can adapt some of our stuff to the ground, but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student.



Mr C,
Your answer to this was great thank you for the wonderful response as usual. 

Doug hopefully you really do not believe that statement you made and were just trying to get an insightful response. Also since I know you are in Austin ask Mr. Billings about how many of the techniques are used in grappling. We have had many discussions on this and worked many of the techniques in those situations. 

Respectfully,
_Ginsu_


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Ginsu _
> *Mr C,
> Your answer to this was great thank you for the wonderful response as usual.
> *



Amen.

I got a lot of good answers.

I was curious to see what the reaction would be, that is true Ginsu.

I mean why do we have 44 Variations on 5 Swords (I think that is correct from Mr. C's Master Key posting somewhere on here) but not one "grappling" technique?  That seems a bit overloaded.

Anyway, Mr. Speakman recently asked us in his Dec 2002 seminar if anyone had any questions and specifically used "Does Kenpo work on the Ground?" as an example but no one took him up on it.

I didn't say anything then either because I know it "works" on the ground, but I also think that most Kenpo Brown Belts or Black Belts will lose a grappling encounter with a Gracie Purple or Brown Belt.

Again, if the Gracie guy can get the Kenpo guy to the ground.

Here is my experience in Grappling so far.   We had a guy that taught on Saturdays before I took over and he liked to work the Guard, Mount, Side Mount, Shrimp, Fig 4 armbar, American Choke/Stranglehold, and 1-2 other techniques. He would usually spend 15-30mins of classtime reviewing or teaching these.

He used to go to a Machado School on open mat night and said that these were basically all the techniques he knew and  with them he was very capable of defending himself and he was by no means at everyone's mercy in that mixed class of primarily grappling students.  So there are just a few techniques that you need (Master Key Grappling techniques maybe) that will serve you very well and he and I wondered why these 6-8 moves were not on our charts.

When I first went to his class he was showing how a grappling student can easily apply a choke.  They work on it all the time.  If you give them 1 second then they are choking you out.  There were 2-3 chokes he used as examples, but they were simple, effective and very readily available to an assailant.

When I first started working with him, I did Snapping Twig and some other stuff while on my back that he pointed out work very well.  Some of the stuff I formulated on the ground surprised him quite a bit.  He used some of it as examples.  He was impressed that in my first grappling class I was able to actually defend myself and get to him.

On the other hand I was sure that if we just dropped to the ground he could put me in a choke faster than I could formulat a response.

So I know Kenpo of this works on the ground. It just seems odd that we have 44 Right Roundhouse Punch defense variants and not even 6 Master Key Grappling moves.  I mean if we were trying to get everyone to think, then we should throw everything out there and let experience and your instructor help you sort it out.

I have a conclusion, but I can't get it worked out so I've deleted it.  Basically I think that based on that quote from Book 5 I am accept that Kenpo is a stand-up striking art and that that is what a Black Belt should be good at.  I guess.  Based on the curriculum that is the logical conclusion.  Prior to reading that I thought a Black Belt should have more "mystical powers."  It was good for me to see that and re-focus.  I don't deny that Kenpo works in grappling and that you can take the principles and concepts into anything and they'll serve you well.  I've worked out with other stylists and I have seen that I can pick up what they are doing and help them at the same time based on my Kenpo knowledge.

I'll shut up.  I'm confusing myself.  PM me if you like.  I may expand on this/edit it down later somehow.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I also think that most Kenpo Brown Belts or Black Belts will lose a grappling encounter with a Gracie Purple or Brown Belt.
> *



You have a valid point, but let's use a prime "Kenpo Tool" to examine why.  {Infinite Insights - Book 1, page 1}  From "YOUR point of view", and with all YOUR experiences up to date, is what your feelings and opinion is based upon.  Now, with that in mind, it allows you to realize..... where you are, where you have been, and where you still need to go to get expanded training to increase your current skills and become better than you are at this time.  All of what you have done is valid but you realize that there are skills that are either weak and need improvement or lacking totally.  

You are at a particular level of experience, Brown Belt, (keep in mind that - belt or no belt, what you actually KNOW and can DO is what is more important than the color of the belt) you still have much to learn and experience yet to Black and even then you are not at the end ......... thru [several] levels {or years of experience} of Black Belt.  During this time, I'm positive the material will present itself and you will be able to expand your definitions of "current material" and realize that you are currently limiting your views on the techniques due to lack of experience that will come in time....... Recall the  words........ " Let time be your measure to skill and experience".



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> On the other hand I was sure that if we just dropped to the ground he could put me in a choke faster than I could formulate a response.
> *



Yes, I agree........ question is why?   Because he is conditioned for this specific type of activity at this point and YOU are not!  Simple!  Now go put on the sparring gear and freestyle with him for a typical open point tournament and see how he does in your POND!     I recall the words again....... "Condition and guts, take over where knowledge and skill end".   You are not "conditioned" as of yet for grappling due to the curriculum path that your are currently following..... this will not last forever, be patient grasshopper, one skill at a time....  



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I accept that Kenpo is a stand-up striking art and that is what a Black Belt should be good at.  I guess.  Based on the curriculum that is the logical conclusion.
> *



Again....... due to your exposure, only at this time......  only "AT THIS TIME" once you broaden your horizons..... you will see a different sunrise.  

Damn,  today the little voices are all over me..... Doug do you remember this Kenpo Tool..... "I pledge a continued effort to sharpen my skills, increase my knowledge, and to broaden my horizons...... (Green Belt pledge I do believe) go back and examine exactly what that means.......  {you bill is growing with me ..... you know}




> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I don't deny that Kenpo works in grappling and that you can take the principles and concepts into anything and they'll serve you well.
> *



So then....... WHAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:asian: 

{I think God put you here to keep me on my toes..... NO, you are just doing this to test me aren't you...... OR POSSIBLY... it really is Billings isn't it.  He put you up to this to see if I really know anything!  Hmmmmmmmm}
:rpo: RTFM :rpo:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *...but a true grappling student has a serious advantage over a pure EPAK student. *



The only thing I'll add to this is that the advantage will only be in ground fighting situations only.


I will agree with this statement many times over. I stand by my views and beliefs on this very subject. Again, a grappling student will be better on the ground due to constant drilling of techniques and such where as our art will be much better standing up. Once again I probably opened up a big can of worms here for myself but yet I will be a man and stand up for my beliefs. :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> I will be a man and stand up for my beliefs.
> *



I just can't resist..........

"If you don't stand for something......... You'll fall for anything"

:rofl: 


:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I just can't resist..........
> 
> "If you don't stand for something......... You'll fall for anything"*



Probably!! :rofl:  

It's the story of my life.  I could talk about this one blonde in my life but I'd rather not.


----------



## tarabos

friend of mine used to train a lot in BBJ in addition to Kenpo. he held his own pretty well there. relating more to my point however, is when it came time to  do a drill of sorts to try and take the opponent down vale-tudo style. the pure BBJ students were then at a bit of a disadvantage because strikes came into play. 

the grapplers were not able to take him down consistently because when they would try to shoot, he would blast them with an elbow or a knee, or simply used footwork to avoid being taken down. 

would a seasoned BBJ practitioner been able to take him to the ground fairly easily, yeah probably. but at the time he was not exactly what i would call "seasoned" in kenpo either. the students there had about the same years experience in grappling as he had in kenpo, and the fight usually was never taken to the ground.

eh...it's all relative in the end i guess...


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Probably!! :rofl:  It's the story of my life.  I could talk about this one blonde in my life but I'd rather not.
> *


----------



## jeffkyle

OMG!:anic:


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *This I agree with very much so SIR! I've tried to say this many times over and made a lot of people angry when I've said something similar. Maybe it was in the delivery.  Anyway there are people out there that can take your knowledge and tweak it a little and make that tech. a lot better or give just a little better understanding.:asian: *




JF,

I might have been able to say I agree with you, if you had let go of my throat long enough for me to breath and speak . It must be your presentation and delivery.  

Seriously, I am enjoying and learning that Many of the concepts in one martial art transcend into the others. 

Good Discussion!


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _




Yikes!!!!! 
No, she wasn't that BIG!!:rofl: 
I tried to make a rule of thumb in life not to date any females that had more muscle than me.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yikes!!!  I tried to make a rule of thumb in life not to date any females that had more muscle than me.
> *



Actually ............ you DO have the same amount...... she just uses hers more!:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *So then....... WHAT'S THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *



No problem sir.  I can out point-fight most of the guys at our studio you know.

My observation is that if we have a lot of "grappling" built into EPAK, then why aren't there any grappling techniques.

We could use a good 6-8 techniques, but we don't have one.  But we have 10 Master Key stand-up techniques and 144 variations.  It just strikes me as odd that is all.

I picked up grappling pretty well from my buddy.  Sometimes it sounds like a stretch when you tell us "It's in there!" like an old Ragu commercial.  
:rofl: 
I am just wondering why the "curriculum" is set up like it is if there is more "grappling" than appears at first blush. I wonder if the Kajukenbo guys have more grappling techniques than us EPAK guys do.  

I think we could use more grappling, more entering strategies, maybe some more/better freestyle techniques, some chi/energy training, and I like the Lockflow stuff that Mr. Hartsell does from what I've seen.  I think that falls under grappling and, yes, I know he had an Black Belt under Mr. Parker (like Mr. Inosanto) and that he lost a match to Bob Wall at the 1968 IKC (Memories of Ed Parker pg 75  ).

I was just noticing there seems to be a lot of stuff "implicit" in our curriculum which seems odd since we have so much stuff that is "explicit."  I'd like to see more base techniques and less variations I guess.

But everytime I work out with someone from another style I see how well Kenpo works and helps me adapt to situations.  I'm not complaining per se.  Kenpo is good stuff and there is a lot of material "buried" in the system.

I gotta go change my asbestos undies now.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think we could use more grappling, more entering strategies,  *



So would I!!!!!! The thing here is that it takes a period of time to adjust to the grappling ranges. Hand positioning is very important and can mean the distinctive degree of "possible" losses. Body posture is an absolute must when grappling.There are certain aspects that you just can't do on your own without proper guidance of a qualified instructor. :asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *No problem sir.  I can out point-fight most of the guys at our studio you know.*


*

I'll be looking for you next time I come down...




			Sometimes it sounds like a stretch when you tell us "It's in there!" like an old Ragu commercial.  
:rofl:
		
Click to expand...


Preach brother, preach....





			My observation is that if we have a lot of "grappling" built into EPAK, then why aren't there any grappling techniques.

We could use a good 6-8 techniques, but we don't have one.  But we have 10 Master Key stand-up techniques and 144 variations.  It just strikes me as odd that is all.

I picked up grappling pretty well from my buddy.  Sometimes it sounds like a stretch when you tell us "It's in there!" like an old Ragu commercial.  
:rofl: 
I am just wondering why the "curriculum" is set up like it is if there is more "grappling" than appears at first blush. I wonder if the Kajukenbo guys have more grappling techniques than us EPAK guys do.  

I think we could use more grappling, more entering strategies, maybe some more/better freestyle techniques, some chi/energy training, and I like the Lockflow stuff that Mr. Hartsell does from what I've seen.  I think that falls under grappling and, yes, I know he had an Black Belt under Mr. Parker (like Mr. Inosanto) and that he lost a match to Bob Wall at the 1968 IKC (Memories of Ed Parker pg 75  ).

I was just noticing there seems to be a lot of stuff "implicit" in our curriculum which seems odd since we have so much stuff that is "explicit."  I'd like to see more base techniques and less variations I guess.
		
Click to expand...

*
Do I smell smoke? Doug are you over there thinking out a Kenpo issue without any of those corny comparisons? You actually made a statement about the system without apology on what you think it needs with quoting what Mr. so and so said...I'm impressed. Keep on thinking....now I need to go beat up on something you said in another post...:rofl: 

Your bro, jb:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *...I'm impressed. Keep on thinking....now I need to go beat up on something you said in another post...:rofl:  *




He's not that bad.   Of course you are a little closer than me to him did you really smell his hair burning????:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *I'll be looking for you next time I come down...
> 
> Preach brother, preach....
> 
> Do I smell smoke? Doug are you over there thinking out a Kenpo issue without any of those corny comparisons? You actually made a statement about the system without apology on what you think it needs with quoting what Mr. so and so said...I'm impressed. Keep on thinking....now I need to go beat up on something you said in another post...:rofl:
> 
> Your bro, jb:asian: *



OK Jason, I'll look forward to a trouncing.
 
I'm confused about the rest, I'll email you.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *OK Jason, I'll look forward to a trouncing. *




Gee Doug, why don't you give him an open invitation?:rofl:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Gee Doug, why don't you give him an open invitation?:rofl: *



Lol,

Wait a minute don't get us confused with Kirk and Gou...I'm just teasing him...

jb


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Actually ............ you DO have the same amount...... she just uses hers more!:rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



I agree here. However she apparently gets to spend more time in the weight room than I do.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Lol,
> Wait a minute don't get us confused with Kirk and Gou...I'm just teasing him...
> jb *



   

I kind of figured that.


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Lol,
> 
> Wait a minute don't get us confused with Kirk and Gou...I'm just teasing him...
> 
> jb *



:shrug:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Gee Doug, why don't you give him an open invitation?:rofl: *



He already has an open invitation.  We are trying to get 4 of us from 4 different cities to show up to my class some Saturday.  I know he can beat me without hurting me.


----------



## cdhall

Hey, I'm living up to this Noisy Cricket nickname aren't I?

Only because Austin is shut down today because of snow.

The high was 30 degrees today.  The normal Low for today is 46.

There is ice everywhere.  There is a good half inch all over my car.  I have pictures somewhere.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *:shrug: *



Come on Kirk....don't be that way...If we can't laugh at ourselves it's not worth it...

You've chatted with me enough to know I don't take myself too seriously..:erg:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *He already has an open invitation.  We are trying to get 4 of us from 4 different cities to show up to my class some Saturday.  I know he can beat me without hurting me.
> *



I'll be up this Sunday if the weather breaks. I'll give you a call after Mr. Duffy and I finished up...Otherwise I'll probably just stick around for 30mins or an hour and work with Darren if he's up for it..

jb

Anyway, way off track...back the the questions for the GD7


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> My observation is that if we have a lot of "grappling" built into EPAK, then why aren't there any grappling techniques.
> *



 Sigh....... Knowledge is wasted on youth....... Now I know why Tigers eat their young!


----------



## cdhall

Back to the QnA.

Mr. C.  Why did Mr. Parker find it necessary to show anyone 44 explicit ways to defend against a Right Roundhouse Punch but not one explicit way to defend against a "mount" particularly when:

1. Most fights go to the ground
2. Most fights end on the ground
3. Most fights last less than 30 seconds
4. Mr. Parker considered being taken to the ground more dangerous than being punched at

 

I think most of the above are correct, but please if you correct any of my presumptions, don't forget to answer the  question.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *
> 1. Most fights go to the ground
> *



No they don't. that was a marketing strategy put forth by the gracies to sell their brand of competition "judo" they call Brazilian jiujitsu.



> 2. Most fights end on the ground



Same answer. the American culture does not fight on the ground, particularly in adulthood.



> 3. Most fights last less than 30 seconds



The length of the fight is irrelevent to the question of "mounting."



> 4. Mr. Parker considered being taken to the ground more dangerous than being punched at



Really not true. Mr. Parker felt that grappling" had been thoroughly explored. He knew that a grappler in a competition venue was a formidable opponent because that's all they train for from day one, but he too was an accomplished grappler from the Dan Zan Ryu System of Henry Okazaki. Chow too was a "mat specialist" who loved to grapple as well.

Parker felt the real area to explore was how NOT to go to the ground and we came up with some very interesting stuff.

In the American culture of stand up fighting, there exists an unwritten rule that suggest if two guys go down, they will disengage, stand up, and start over. Everyone knows and understands the consequences of being on the ground whether you're winning or not. Losing is but a bystander and a boot away. In my adult experience, I have rarely seen two adult men wrestling around on the ground who were not both drunk. The Gracies did one hell of a sales job. I hear that all the time, until I ask the question, "When is the last time you saw two men not drunk wrestling on the ground?"


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Come on Kirk....don't be that way...If we can't laugh at ourselves it's not worth it...
> 
> You've chatted with me enough to know I don't take myself too seriously..:erg: *



LOL!  The joke wasn't at YOUR expense, it was at mine (and 
Gou's).  Although DAMNED funny, I couldn't be complimentative!
I had to "say" _something_.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Why did Mr. Parker find it necessary to show anyone 44 explicit ways to defend against a Right Roundhouse Punch but not one explicit way to defend against a "mount"?
> *



Priorities!

In all the confrontations I have been in (which were few) the only time I went to the ground is when I wanted to, not to say that there isn't a time that could be useful, but I agree with the doc, Mr. Parker just initially developed what was most necessary at the time.


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Back to the QnA.
> 
> 1. Most fights go to the ground
> 2. Most fights end on the ground
> 3. Most fights last less than 30 seconds
> 4. Mr. Parker considered being taken to the ground more dangerous than being punched at
> 
> *



Doug,

You can ground fight without being on the ground, and fights can end with somebody on the ground it doesnt have to be you. 
Yes the fights I have been in have been quick probably less then 30 seconds, and they havent went to the ground unless I allowed them too. Guys still have a hieght width and depth on the ground and they can still be cancelled using what you know from Kenpo. a guy shoots a single leg dropping into a good forward bow with a overhead verticle elbow is a good answer, thats in one of the rams if I remember right....we have tools, some very good ones to stay off the ground.


----------



## Ginsu

> The length of the fight is irrelevent to the question of "mounting."


  


Doc,
I know you were explaining a valid point and this is solely based on my perverse sense of humor it would seem. However when I read your comment on this I took it the complete wrong way and could not stop laughing. Thank you for the laugh even though you did not mean it. Oh and yes I got the actual meaning but the twisted funny one I enjoyed more.


_Ginsu_


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *No they don't. that was a marketing strategy put forth by the gracies to sell their brand of competition "judo" they call Brazilian jiujitsu.
> ...
> The Gracies did one hell of a sales job. *



Thank you Doc for a very solid reply.

However, I got my info mostly from Sifu Swan in 1984 before I'd ever heard of the Gracies.   And I got some of it from Mr. LaBounty too I think.  Either that most fights go to the ground or that most fights end in 30 seconds.  I thought he presented this to us as info backed up by police records but I can't be sure.

Just letting you all know where I get some of this stuff.  Mr. Swan also perpetuated the rumor (at least one of his busiest teachers did-the guy that taught my class 1-2 times/week) that Mr. Parker didn't teach anymore either, so I know some of the info there was suspcious.  But Sifu Swan did have grappling nights.  Nothing like Gracie stuff, mostly college wrestling stuff I think.

This board is a great resource.  I can fully understand how Mr. Parker thought that perhaps jiu-jitsu "had been done to death" and wanted to focus on how to stay standing.  When I first saw UFC 1 I asked Mr. Duffy why Gracie didn't get kicked in the teeth when he came in at his opponent's knees for a takedown.  Later on I learned Intercepting the Ram and I was even more puzzled.  I thought we were supposed to stuff people that came in at us.  Particularly if they are diving head first at your knee or foot.

Oh well.  I understand strikers have since made great progress in the NHB arenas.  I need to watch some of those I guess.  Thanks again.


----------



## Nightingale

Charging Ram works nicely against a mount.  So does Broken Ram.

However, I agree that I would like to see more in the way of groundfighting (not grappling, which is like wrestling, but groundfighting and ground self defense) in the Kenpo curriculum.  Just saying "its in there" isn't enough.    I'd like to see some techniques for when both you and the attacker are on the ground, and some techniques for when you're on the ground, but your attacker isn't.

When you go to the ground, which can happen, but doesn't happen as often as some grapplers would like us to believe, things change.  All of a sudden, you don't have that solid base that so much of kenpo requires.  You don't have the same kind of leverage you have standing up, and you're looking at things from a weird angle.   These are problems that need to be anticipated and trained for.  We train our stand up kenpo to the point that its instinct.  Why don't we do this for ground kenpo as well?

Many schools say "its in there" but many don't actually tell you how its in there.  

Not criticising, only curious.

-N-


----------



## Hollywood1340

When GM Pelligrini was here, he brought up this very point. "Where did they get the statistic that fights go to the ground? Have you ever been called and a polled? "Excuse me sir, how many fights have you had that go the ground?" Never. So where did they get it? There's only been to times I've gone to the ground. Both times I was nearly killed. The ground is not your friend." EPAK seems to have the notion, *If you hit the ground, get back up* which it what it does, very nicely. IMO "Being on the ground" means you're standing, and the're on the ground. Just my 0.02


----------



## Ginsu

> We train our stand up kenpo to the point that its instinct. Why don't we do this for ground kenpo as well?



I think that the point being made here and being missed somewhat is that by training your kenpo to the point that it is instinct is that you are doing the same thing for ground Kenpo as it was put.

Granted there are not any techniques where both you and the attacker are on the ground that I can think off, but I can think of a few off the top of my head where you are on the ground and your attacker is not.

Also why should it have to be a specific technique where you are on the ground and your opponent is not. Take for example Clutching Feathers (no bald comments here please), if you are somehow knocked down and the attacker reaches out to grab you by the hair are you telling me that technique will not work?

Just some thoughts...

_Ginsu_


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *When I first saw UFC 1 I asked Mr. Duffy why Gracie didn't get kicked in the teeth when he came in at his opponent's knees for a takedown.  Later on I learned Intercepting the Ram and I was even more puzzled.  I thought we were supposed to stuff people that came in at us.  Particularly if they are diving head first at your knee or foot.*



If you have an opponent that knows how to shoot takedowns your not going to get off that knee strike!! Sorry but I do like the ram techniques but I really don't feel they will work a talented shooter. If you want to talk about the everyday joe then they will work well. :asian:   

Once again this is just my view point.


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Ginsu _
> *I think that the point being made here and being missed somewhat is that by training your kenpo to the point that it is instinct is that you are doing the same thing for ground Kenpo as it was put.
> 
> Granted there are not any techniques where both you and the attacker are on the ground that I can think off, but I can think of a few off the top of my head where you are on the ground and your attacker is not.
> 
> Also why should it have to be a specific technique where you are on the ground and your opponent is not. Take for example Clutching Feathers (no bald comments here please), if you are somehow knocked down and the attacker reaches out to grab you by the hair are you telling me that technique will not work?
> 
> Just some thoughts...
> 
> Ginsu *



Clutching feathers may work... it may not... I have no idea.  I've never tried it.  that's my point.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Priorities!
> 
> In all the confrontations I have been in (which were few) the only time I went to the ground is when I wanted to, not to say that there isn't a time that could be useful, but I agree with the doc, Mr. Parker just initially developed what was most necessary at the time.
> 
> 
> *



Sir,

This seems to substantiate my claim that Mr. Parker didn't put any "isolated grappling techniques/drills" into the system because of 

a) Priorities
b) vast amount of Judo/Jiu-Jitsu training available to everyone (since perhaps the 50's)

Is this not correct?

Again, I'm not saying we can't adapt to groundfighting, I'm just saying that it is not outlined in the curriculum and you and Doc both seem to agree because Mr. Parker wanted to focus on striking and staying on your feet.
 
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _*
> I would like to see more in the way of groundfighting (not grappling, which is like wrestling, but groundfighting and ground self defense) in the Kenpo curriculum.  Just saying "its in there" isn't enough.    Many schools say "its in there" but many don't actually tell you how its in there.
> *



It "is" in the system, but consider this more a problem of the instructor or organizations philosophy and teaching methods.  Many seem to assume that you only teach the "obvious" techniques that were "given them" and some don't seem to realize that there is much, much more to the system.  Makes me wonder what some do for actual drills......... what do they do for warm ups or do they, what do they do for bag work, what do they do for stretching, what do they do for power training, what do they do for..... (any numerous different areas of training that are not WRITTEN DOWN IN A COOKIE CUTTER MANNER FOR THEM)?



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _*
> We train our stand up kenpo to the point that its instinct.  Why don't we do this for ground kenpo as well?
> *



Again, I point to the instructor or organization.  I know several studios that are not having this problem (must be local issue for some):rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Sir,
> 
> This seems to substantiate my claim that Mr. Parker didn't put any "isolated grappling techniques/drills" into the system because of
> 
> a) Priorities
> b) vast amount of Judo/Jiu-Jitsu training available to everyone (since perhaps the 50's)
> 
> Is this not correct?
> 
> Again, I'm not saying we can't adapt to groundfighting, I'm just saying that it is not outlined in the curriculum and you and Doc both seem to agree because Mr. Parker wanted to focus on striking and staying on your feet.
> 
> :asian: *



"What e v e rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *"What e v e rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"
> *



Ahem.
Sir, this is QnA...

Can I use this in class?  Can I quote you?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Ahem. Sir, this is QnA...
> *



I will only respond and explain until it becomes redundant & ridiculous.

:asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Ginsu _
> *
> 
> 
> Doc,
> I know you were explaining a valid point and this is solely based on my perverse sense of humor it would seem. However when I read your comment on this I took it the complete wrong way and could not stop laughing. Thank you for the laugh even though you did not mean it. Oh and yes I got the actual meaning but the twisted funny one I enjoyed more.
> 
> 
> Ginsu *



Actually you were the only one that got it.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *If you have an opponent that knows how to shoot takedowns your not going to get off that knee strike!! Sorry but I do like the ram techniques but I really don't feel they will work a talented shooter. If you want to talk about the everyday joe then they will work well. :asian:
> 
> Once again this is just my view point. *


It's all in the training. You see much less of that even in those competitions because fighters have adjusted.

In our classroom, we actually have students get down in a three point stance like football and bring it as a tackle should be. If you get knocked down, you're not doing it right. We also imploy unique concepts that work to enhance survivability that work very well.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *It's all in the training.  *



I'm only going by my experiences on the mat by doing and by watching. I wrestled a few state champs in high school. I'll say you won't necessarily run into one on the street much less pick a fight with one of these guys but you won't have much reaction time to a takedown by someone with this kind of experience. :asian:


----------



## Elfan

On the "most fights end up on the ground claim"

The claim, as I understand it, is that most fights, at some point someone ends up on the ground (ie you or your oponent fell, was knocked out, etc.).  Not that most fights end up in BBJ like grapling sessions.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *On the "most fights end up on the ground claim"
> 
> The claim, as I understand it, is that most fights, at some point someone ends up on the ground (ie you or your oponent fell, was knocked out, etc.).  Not that most fights end up in BBJ like grapling sessions. *



Interesting take, but if most fights end up on the ground as you understand it, that would not promote the Gracie method which insists the ground is where the fight really is. They do not promote punching, kicking, or even throwing over takedowns and submissions - so the statement would be without meaning coming from the ones who promoted it. Of course your understanding is actually a more realistic probability than the Gracie's spin.


----------



## Dun Ringill

Mr. C,

I'm sorry to ask such a mundane question, but what was the year that Mr. Parker started the Long Beach internationals?

Oss, 

dun


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Dun Ringill _*
> Mr. C,I'm sorry to ask such a mundane question, but what was the year that Mr. Parker started the Long Beach internationals? *



1964

:asian:


----------



## jazkiljok

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> * I have rarely seen two adult men wrestling around on the ground who were not both drunk. The Gracies did one hell of a sales job. I hear that all the time, until I ask the question, "When is the last time you saw two men not drunk wrestling on the ground?" *



which is also where the statistics come from-- police pull up arrest folks who are too darn plastered to run off from their fight.
which led to another statistic that the gracie's forgot to mention- that 90 per cent of these fights are alcohol or drug induced.

every night at the more rowdy clubs and bars where the security is beefed up-- you can see all this played out. a fight starts between two liquored up macho morons, who begin to tussle and throw sloppy punches at each other as they stumble and fall from their lack of ability to remain on their feet due to their equilibrium being greatly hampered by the effects of the booze/drugs. when they hit the ground they thrash about wildly (no fancy arm bars or ankle locks).

but then watch the security finish it-- these guys sweep in and remove the rubbish in rabid fashion and they do it standing on their feet.

good posts from Doc and Goldendragon (as usual)


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> * some techniques for when you're on the ground, but your attacker isn't.
> *



Check the brown belt curriculuum.....


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *If you have an opponent that knows how to shoot takedowns your not going to get off that knee strike!! Sorry but I do like the ram techniques but I really don't feel they will work a talented shooter. If you want to talk about the everyday joe then they will work well. :asian:
> 
> Once again this is just my view point. *


Sorry Jas,
You are going to have to prove that to me.  I have proven time and again that if you try and shoot my legs, you are going to get hurt, badly.  I have guys that come into the school that figure if they can't beat me standing, they'll take me to the ground because their instrcutor taught them some grappling.  Like Mr. C^2 said, I do not go to the ground unless I want to.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Clutching feathers may work... it may not... I have no idea.  I've never tried it.  that's my point. *


That is exactly the point.  People who say that the stuff does not work on the ground, have not really _tried_ it on the ground.  Get someone you feel rolling on the ground with and try working your techniques, they will surprise you.  Here's an easy one for you to try, get a friend into the mount position, with you on bottom, have them grab your lapels and try something like Alternating Maces.....The principles are the same, the execution slightly different.  Do not be afraid to try and to explore.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I'm only going by my experiences on the mat by doing and by watching. I wrestled a few state champs in high school. I'll say you won't necessarily run into one on the street much less pick a fight with one of these guys but you won't have much reaction time to a takedown by someone with this kind of experience. :asian: *


You and I really need to talk......


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *You and I really need to talk...... *




I'm not sure who is trying to shoot takedowns on you. I personally wouldn't shoot singles and doubles on you. Seig you outweigh me by a good margin therefore it wouldn't be feasable for me to do so. However if I did I would shoot some outside singles on a larger opponent this way I wouldn't get caught in the middle. I've wrestled and beat some of the best wrestlers in the state of ohio (at that time). :asian:  Again, I'm only stating personal experience.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I'm not sure who is trying to shoot takedowns on you. I personally wouldn't shoot singles and doubles on you. Seig you outweigh me by a good margin therefore it wouldn't be feasable for me to do so. However if I did I would shoot some outside singles on a larger opponent this way I wouldn't get caught in the middle. I've wrestled and beat some of the best wrestlers in the state of ohio (at that time). :asian:  Again, I'm only stating personal experience. *


Jas,
I didn't mean it as a cut.  I too wrestled and grappled, when I was much smaller.  I'll explain my position when you get here.


----------



## Nightingale

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Check the brown belt curriculuum..... *



I've only learned through green so far.  My old school didn't teach the brown belt stuff...

I thought third brown was mostly gun techniques, and then second and first brown were extensions, though... I'm probably wrong. someone at my school borrowed my notebook two months ago for a school project and hasn't given it back yet, so I don't have a way to look it up right now.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Jas,
> I didn't mean it as a cut.  *



Seig,
I didn't take it as one. :asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I've only learned through green so far.  My old school didn't teach the brown belt stuff...*



Here's your hint:  Encounter with Danger
Play with this one for a while.


----------



## Nightingale

that was the only one I could think of (was a green belt tech at my old school) but was hoping for a few more.


----------



## Goldendragon7

They'll present themselves soon enough!
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

How many use a "mirror" as part of their training?

:asian:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *How many use a "mirror" as part of their training?
> 
> :asian: *[/QUOTEI used to but I kept dropping it when I slapchecked.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Originally posted by Goldendragon7 How many use a "mirror" as part of their training?:asian:
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I used to but I kept dropping it when I slapchecked.
> *



Rolling eyesOh Brother...
Not quite what I had in mind......

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale

I do when I'm at the studio and at the gym.  at home, more difficult, but I will drag out my full length mirror if I'm having trouble getting something to "feel" right... usually I can see in the mirror what I'm doing wrong.


----------



## Goldendragon7

they do make mirror closet doors now.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *they do make mirror closet doors now.
> 
> *



There are mirrors the length of the studio. I use them to make sure my strikes are in proportion to my size. I've told every student I taught to make sure they look in the mirror if their having trouble on something. You know, an inward block where the elbow is at the head and a horizontal punch is at the groin.:rofl:


----------



## MinnieMin

I use mirror sometimes to check if I get the basics right, but I can't look myself through mirror when I practice techniques.  Are we suppose to? :asian:

Min


----------



## Big Pat

If you ever get a chance, video tape yourself. It shows everything - the good and the bad. I know it surprised me how sloppy some of my stances were.

EKP RIP

Big Pat  :asian:


----------



## MinnieMin

Hey, thanks Big pat!
I should try this sometimes.


----------



## Nightingale

I've got a walk in closet, so it has a normal door on it instead of a sliding closet door, so that one wouldn't work


----------



## Elfan

> "Warrior Tales...... American Kenpo's Best Loved Stories" by Dennis Conatser



Could you tell us a little bit more about that?


----------



## Kenpomachine

I use the mirror more or less as Jason, to correct stances and strikes and body alignment. It's great for forms work.
We've also use in in techniques, specially when something doesn't feel allright


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by Big Pat _
> *If you ever get a chance, video tape yourself. It shows everything - the good and the bad. I know it surprised me how sloppy some of my stances were.
> 
> EKP RIP
> 
> Big Pat  :asian: *



information only there was a decent article in black belt this month about taping yourself and using video to improve.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
> *



soon!

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Taping yourself and using video to improve.
> *



Remember, Mr. Parker discovered "reverse motion" while watching himself on 8mm tape (while rewinding) which was a HUGE reference point for us.

Mirrors and video are great tools to watch yourself.  You know what you feel like from the "inside out", using mirrors (2nd point of view) or tape (2nd & 3rd point of views), allows the reality of what you really look like from the outside in!

A great perspective ---- the 2nd and/or 3rd point of view..... this allows for 2 of the 3 additional points of view to study (2/3 rds better than your single point of view).

:asian:


----------



## Pakhet

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *How many use a "mirror" as part of their training?
> 
> :asian: *



 I just got a couple from home depot on friday to put in what used to be the family room...we're going to try and get them up today


----------



## Michael Billings

... Mr. Conatser sir, you corrupt my students, just by one meeting, now they are running out and mounting mirrors in their homes.  (You met Pakhet in Pheonix.)  Hee-hee!

She will be busy studying this weekend and tomorrow, for on Tuesday we finish her Orange Belt test.

Osu,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *She will be busy studying this weekend and tomorrow, for on Tuesday we finish her Orange Belt test.[/URL] *



Kick it's butt Pakhet!


----------



## Pakhet

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Kick it's butt Pakhet! *



Erin's tripping out over your grammar 

thanks.  I'll try.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Doc _I used to but I kept dropping it when I slapchecked. [/B]


If I did not have great respect for your seniority, I would really let you have it for that one. In the future, sir, please do not lob if you do not want a slam in return.:rofl:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *I've got a walk in closet, so it has a normal door on it instead of a sliding closet door, so that one wouldn't work  *


For about 20 bucks, you can get one that mounts to the door very easily.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Remember, Mr. Parker discovered "reverse motion" while watching himself on 8mm tape (while rewinding) which was a HUGE reference point for us.
> 
> Mirrors and video are great tools to watch yourself.  You know what you feel like from the "inside out", using mirrors (2nd point of view) or tape (2nd & 3rd point of views), allows the reality of what you really look like from the outside in!
> 
> A great perspective ---- the 2nd and/or 3rd point of view..... this allows for 2 of the 3 additional points of view to study (2/3 rds better than your single point of view).
> 
> :asian: *


Would it not also allow you to watch yourself in a kind of an "opposite" as it is a mirror image?


----------



## Pakhet

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... Mr. Conatser sir, you corrupt my students, [/URL] *



Now now...he didn't corrupt us...YOU did :rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Pakhet _
> *Now now Mr. Billings...he didn't corrupt us...YOU did :rofl: *


:rofl: You  go Girl!:rofl:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Pakhet _
> *Now now...he didn't corrupt us...YOU did :rofl: *



Technicality Pakhet.
Wait until he tells you about grappling and kenpo and mirrors.
 

I'm going to duck out of the room now.  I'll come back in a few months when it might be safe.
:rofl:


----------



## Pakhet

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Technicality Pakhet.
> Wait until he tells you about grappling and kenpo and mirrors.
> 
> 
> *



what *about* grappling and kenpo and mirrors???


or do I really not want to know?


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Pakhet _
> *what *about* grappling and kenpo and mirrors???
> 
> 
> or do I really not want to know? *



You probably don't want to know.
 
I didn't understand the grappling part very well when he tried to explain it to me.

I'm going to try to shut up before I get into trouble, but I'm sure I'll be back later and live to regret it.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I didn't understand the grappling part very well when he tried to explain it to me.*



I found some difficulty trying to grapple a grappler. As I've stated before hand positioning and body positioning is an absolute must or it means the difference of winning or losing (at least that's my view).


----------



## Seig

This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion.  In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring.  If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that?  What would the ramifications be?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion.  In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring.  If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that?  What would the ramifications be?
> *



As an example.............I have a student that only has the use of only one arm (left).  It was a situation from birth.  There is no way to strengthen the "weak" or in his, case the "right" arm, which is virtually useless. 

So .......... what do you do?.....  well ...... what can you do.... give him another arm......NO...... so

You work the "good"  arm overtime.  LOL........ since the one arm is unable to operate or function ...... you then must use Mr. Parker's "tailoring" tool   To show you the compensations would be the only way to explain each technique and we can't do that here .... it would take volumes.  So you'll have to ask me when you see me........ LOL

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *This is something that I have been thinking about and have not come to a satisfactory conclusion.  In Kenpo, we do a lot of double factoring.  If you have someone who is impaired on one side, is there some way to compensate for that?  What would the ramifications be? *



I don't want to pretend to have a better answer than Mr. C but perhaps my observation will lead to another question or answer.

If a Double-Factor is essentially a double-block like when you change angles in Short 1, then 50% of the reason to do it is for margin of error.  

If you can not Double-Factor then you can still execute the primary block, parry or maneuver right?

So all that happens when you can not Double-Factor is you lose some margin of error.  

As Mr. Liles demonstrated to us at camp once, Bruce Lee's attitude toward blocking a punch was to "hit first" because blocks are a waste of time.  This is why most of our blocks are strikes anyway right?

So if someone can not Double-factor then they focus more on being quicker, angling, and hitting more precisely, correct?

I don't see this as anything to compensate "for."  I see having only one arm as a situation that is sort of already accounted for in a Double-Factor which is really just insurance in the first place.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## jfarnsworth

The double factor doesn't necessarily always mean to double block. It can be many different things at the same time. Obviously this is Mr. C's thread and he probably has a different/better answer than I but what I've seen and been taught there are others relating to the double factor.:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Sorry CD, for not responding sooner, but was side tracked with the care of my mother and all that was going on at home for the past 2 months.......  back on track now.........



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> If a Double-Factor is essentially a double-block like when you change angles in Short 1, then 50% of the reason to do it is for margin of error.
> *



It is NOT essentially a double block.   It can be for many things.... in short one for example.... you have just completed the 1st block, as you step back for the next movement........ a couple of  uses are; to cover or protect your centerline, as well as to position for opposing forces (in this case the hands do not cross).  I don't understand what you are referring as  "margin for error" in this case.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> If you can not Double-Factor then you can still execute the primary block, parry or maneuver right?
> *



Yes



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> So all that happens when you can not Double-Factor is you lose some margin of error.
> *



NO



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> As Mr. Liles demonstrated to us at camp once, Bruce Lee's attitude toward blocking a punch was to "hit first" because blocks are a waste of time.  This is why most of our blocks are strikes anyway right?
> *



Nope, only one view point or reason.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> So if someone can not Double-factor then they focus more on being quicker, angling, and hitting more precisely, correct?
> *



Nope again, you should do all of those anyway!



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I don't see this as anything to compensate "for."  I see having only one arm as a situation that is sort of already accounted for in a Double-Factor which is really just insurance in the first place.
> *



If you say so.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I hope this makes sense.
> *



Not to me,  but then again ...... I'm not your instructor.   

Hang in there.  The system is broader than you realize.

:asian:


----------



## brianhunter

Mr. C,
    If this is still open as a Q and A, I had a couple of questions, I know youve explained why and when Tiger Crane came and went to me before, What about Book Set? When was it included in the curriculum and why? Why was it later removed? What did it teach?
    Where does 2 man set have its origins? how did it manage to stay in most curriculums? What are some of the principles and things to be learned from it?

Brian Hunter


----------



## Goldendragon7

Brian, of course it is still an open Q & A for me.  Ask away!!:asian: 



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> You've explained why and when Tiger Crane came and went to me before,  What about Book Set?
> Brian Hunter *



Same reason.  It was not an Ed Parker set to begin with.  At that time period there was an apparent need for more forms, sets, or training drills..... so "viola" a couple of interesting "drills" were utilized temporarily until more of "our own" unique forms took place.



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> When was it included in the curriculum and why? Why was it later removed? What did it teach?
> Brian Hunter *



Early 60's ~ added as an additional drill until more "Ed Parker sets or Forms were finalized"  It was removed when it no longer was needed as Ed Parker added "his own" forms (early 70's), however, it can still be utilized as an option for fun.  Like all forms it taught or had several uses.  Coordination, stances, power, body alignment, discipline, footwork, etc. etc..



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> Where does 2 man set have its origins? how did it manage to stay in most curriculums? What are some of the principles and things to be learned from it?
> Brian Hunter *



Early 60's.  It is a formal pre-arranged exercise much like a technique line but choreographed for 2 people.  Strike ~ Block.... Strike ~ Block through out the set.  It stayed because it was an Ed Parker set.  

It teaches..........
1.  How to increase your visualization processes in your previous
     forms.
 2.  It builds an esprit de corps between two practitioners.
 3.  Synchronization of movement and timing between two 
      individuals.
 4.  Capitalizes on body maneuvers and positions.
 5.  Whatever angle your opponent chooses as a defense you 
      may choose as an offense, and vice-versa.
 6.  The flow from defensive moves to offensive moves or vice-
      versa.
 7.  The application of rotational momentum combined with 
      Marriage of Gravity while defending.
 8.  The advantageous use of angle changes to ride the force of 
      your opponent's attacks.
 9.  Upper and Lower Case positional checks.
10.  Use of specialized weapons.
11.  Control Manipulation to enhance the effects of opposing 
       forces.
12.  Sliding checks combined with offensive moves.
13.  Specialized blocks that are normally thought of as strikes.
14.  Residual action combining the flow from a block into a strike.
15.  Reinforces the importance of gauging distance and how it will
       effect the timing and choice of movements.
16.  The prolonged application of continuous movement.
17.  Reinforces the importance of being able to defend and/or 
       attack from the inside, outside, above, or below your 
       opponent's weapons.
18.  Stresses the value of understanding the Second Point of 
       View.
19.  The importance of continual transition, and the exercising of 
       its use.
20.  others.........

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

Thank you, Mr. C.  I called twice.  I'm sure you got the messages.  I hope all is better now that you are back.

My question then is "What is a Double Factor" and "What/where are 1-2 examples of it?"

Thank you.
:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

This is still my favorite thread.  Where else can I get so much knowledge for the cost.  I value it more than you think.

-Michael
*Kenpo-Texas.com*


----------



## Klondike93

> Brian Hunter sig - 2 fish swim into a concrete wall, the first fish turns to the other and says "Dam!"



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 


 

Klondike


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *This is still my favorite thread.  Where else can I get so much knowledge for the cost.  I value it more than you think.-Michael
> *



LOL, Thanks.  I am considering a pay per ask format.....:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *LOL, Thanks.  I am considering a pay per ask format.....:rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



Set up a paypal account!! I know a few who would be glad to donate! Ive learned a lot from you!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> My question is "What is a Double Factor"?
> *



It entails utilizing duel movements to defend yourself.  These moves can incorporate any combinations of blocks, parries, and checks.  It ALSO refers to sophisticated moves that are dually defensive and offensive and "reverse motion" is an integral part.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> "What/where are 1-2 examples of it?"
> *



As discussed before..... in short form 1, for example.... you have just completed the 1st block, as you step back for the next movement........ a couple of uses are; to cover or protect your centerline, as well as to position for opposing forces (in this case the hands do not cross).   However, during the next move, you step back with your right foot as you cover with the right hand (positional check), when you pivot (clockwise) and deliver a left inward block the right hand drops down to cover the groin as it returns on its path back to the cocked position at your side.  During this same execution an additional double factor is that it is in sync with the inward block which creates a stronger block through the gain of opposing forces.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> Set up a paypal account!! I know a few who would be glad to donate! Ive learned a lot from you!
> *



I beat you to it.  LOL  It is already set up 

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I beat you to it.  LOL  It is already set up
> 
> :asian: *



Great, another WWE Vince McMahon!


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Great, another WWE Vince McMahon! *



Well Vince isn't the only one who can build a multi-billion dollar establishment.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo_*
> Great, another WWE Vince McMahon!
> *



We could only wish!


----------



## Michael Billings

Vince McDragon - paypal, where??

-Michael


----------



## Kenpomachine

I've heard about a set called _Tiger breathing_ as being similar to what we call in spanish "Tigre en tensión". 
What does it look like?
Where does it come from?
I have a version for the origin of the spanish form, but I have never heard before of _Tiger breathing_ .

Thanks


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> I've heard about a set called Tiger breathing as being similar to what we call in spanish "Tigre en tensión".
> What does it look like? Where does it come from?  I have a version for the origin of the spanish form, but I have never heard before of Tiger breathing .  Thanks
> *



I have no idea what you are talking about.

Nothing like that in Ed Parker's American Kenpo!

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

Feeling relieved for not being the only one not having heard of it 
The spanish form was made by Raúl Gutiérrez for his Kenpo Fushi, by the latest account


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> Feeling relieved for not being the only one not having heard of it   The spanish form was made by Raúl Gutiérrez for his Kenpo Fushi, by the latest account
> *



I would be interested in looking at what he did.


----------



## Kenpomachine

You can see the beginning at http://www.kenporosales.com/fuenteretiro.htm

If you're very interested in the description, I'll write it down, but I'll need some time...


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *If you're interested in the description, I'll write it down, but I'll need some time... *



That would be great. Just email me when you have it finished.


----------



## ikenpo

Mr. C,

On captured leaves I've noticed that, like every other technique, there are several variations that exist in the way this technique is done by various instructors. The 2 variations that seem to be most prominent are the one using a chop to release the finger lock that then orbits around into the first elbow strike, the other is the one that regrabs the attackers fingers after manipulating their grabbing arms position. 

Can you give me some background on those 2 variations as they relate to SGM Parker? Which did he prefer, which did he come up with first, was there a switch that made people do one vs the other?

Thanks in advance, jb


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Mr. C, On captured leaves I've noticed that, like every other technique, there are several variations that exist in the way this technique is done by various instructors. The 2 variations that seem to be most prominent are the one using a chop to release the finger lock that then orbits around into the first elbow strike, the other is the one that re-grabs the attackers fingers after manipulating their grabbing arms position.
> 
> Can you give me some background on those 2 variations as they relate to SGM Parker? Which did he prefer, which did he come up with first, was there a switch that made people do one vs. the other?
> Thanks in advance, jb
> *



I don't know of any other variations than the one he showed me (which is below).  My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques (thus several versions out there) that we have for a number of reasons.  In the beginning I didn't like the darn thing until he showed me how the mechanics worked and why, now, it is one of my favorites.


CAPTURED LEAVES (Right flank finger lock) 

1.  With the fingers of your right hand twisted by your opponent's left hand from your right flank, raise your right hand high (toward 1:30) to relieve the pressure (have your left hand positionally check your opponent's right hand and arm in the process), as you move your right foot slightly to your right (toward 1:30). 

2.  While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)

3.  Immediately pivot clockwise into a right neutral bow stance, and deliver a right back elbow strike to the front of your opponent's left ribcage as your left hand now grabs and controls your opponent's left arm at the wrist. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist.)

4.  Right front crossover and cover between 8 and 9 o'clock. 

Is this the way you do it?

:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Is this the way you do it?
> 
> :asian: *


Yep


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Yep *



What's that huge kissing sound?.......oh, nevermind...:rofl:


----------



## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Is this the way you do it?*



Yep same here. That's way I was shown how it's done by my current instructor, but I was first shown the way JB described it.

:asian: 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I don't know of any other variations than the one he showed me (which is below).  My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques (thus several versions out there) that we have for a number of reasons.  In the beginning I didn't like the darn thing until he showed me how the mechanics worked and why, now, it is one of my favorites.
> 
> 
> CAPTURED LEAVES (Right flank finger lock)
> 
> 1.  With the fingers of your right hand twisted by your opponent's left hand from your right flank, raise your right hand high (toward 1:30) to relieve the pressure (have your left hand positionally check your opponent's right hand and arm in the process), as you move your right foot slightly to your right (toward 1:30).
> 
> 2.  While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)
> 
> 3.  Immediately pivot clockwise into a right neutral bow stance, and deliver a right back elbow strike to the front of your opponent's left ribcage as your left hand now grabs and controls your opponent's left arm at the wrist. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist.)
> 
> 4.  Right front crossover and cover between 8 and 9 o'clock.
> 
> Is this the way you do it?
> 
> :asian: *



I've seen and done it both ways.... at 1) you don't mention anything about grabbing the attacker's fingers after you have "relieve the pressure". Is this a given and therefore unwritten? 

"My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques "

Why would you say that? Has this been your experience in general? What other techniques would you classify like this?

jb:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> You don't mention anything about grabbing the attacker's fingers after you have "relieve the pressure". Is this a given and therefore unwritten?
> jb:asian: *



No, I don't counter grab I finish with the 2 elbow strikes and get the hell out of Dodge.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> "My best guess is that this IS one of the most misinterpreted self defense techniques "  Why would you say that?   Has this been your experience in general?
> jb:asian: *



I say that because it is one of the many techniques that I have found many to have particular trouble with.  Yes, it has been my experience.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> What other techniques would you classify like this?
> jb:asian: *



Oh, there are several..........  Dance of Death, Gift of Destiny, Broken Ram, Blinding Sacrifice, Dominating Circles ...  just to name a few.

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *No, I don't counter grab I finish with the 2 elbow strikes and get the hell out of Dodge.
> 
> 2. While in place, pivot counterclockwise into a horse stance (facing between 8 and 9 o'clock) and deliver a left back elbow strike (from the last checking position) to the back of your opponent's left kidney. (Your opponent is on the tips of his toes, and his body is turning clockwise to his right.)
> 
> :asian: *



Without grabbing their fingers how do you ensure that they will "be on their toes", couldn't they just let your fingers go once you've stepped to 1:30 or does your control manipulation of their arm preclude them from releasing your fingers and getting out of the way of your elbow? Also before the second elbow strike you grab with the left hand. If you don't maintain any control through grabbing with your fingers how do you maintain adhesion, once again is this through the manipulation and the speed at which the technique is executed?

Respectfully, jb :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

LOL, first off this is a public forum, not a private lesson.    If you want this much detailed info you should ask your instructor first and then arrange a private with me.  I love to answer questions until it gets to the point of detailed "how to".  If I were to continue............ you may as well start at the beginning and ask about the 1st technique and continue through the entire system so that I share with everyone my detailed explinations.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Without grabbing their fingers how do you ensure that they will "be on their toes". Respectfully, jb :asian:
> *



These techniques are only ideas..... or drills..... you NEVER insure anything.  In the "ideal phase" we do assume that the technique  works as taught and the opponent reacts as we intend.  During the "what if phase" we examine many, many different possibilities.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Couldn't they just let your fingers go once you've stepped to 1:30
> Respectfully, jb :asian:
> *



Yes they could, that IS a possibility.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Does your control manipulation of their arm preclude them from releasing your fingers and getting out of the way of your elbow?
> Respectfully, jb :asian:
> *



It can as well.



> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _*
> Also before the second elbow strike you grab with the left hand. If you don't maintain any control through grabbing with your fingers how do you maintain adhesion, once again is this through the manipulation and the speed at which the technique is executed?  Respectfully, jb :asian:
> *



Yes, you answered your own question!   

:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *LOL, first off this is a public forum, not a private lesson.    If you want this much detailed info you should ask your instructor first and then arrange a private with me.  I love to answer questions until it gets to the point of detailed "how to".  If I were to continue............ you may as well start at the beginning and ask about the 1st technique and continue through the entire system so that I share with everyone my detailed explinations.
> :asian: *



ouch....there's a way to scare off future questions... 





just kidding, no problem, all is good and the weekend is here.

jb


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *What's that huge kissing sound?.......oh, nevermind...:rofl: *


Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl: *



Now, now....... dont be mean!


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Yer just jealous 'cause he taught it to me.:2xbird::rofl: *



uh, yeah that's it.....I'm jealous of you... 


and in the interest of maturity, good taste and respect for Mr. C I'll leave it at that. 

j "mouse hands" b :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *uh, hee hee.... He doesn't realize how long I've known Gd7 and all the other secrets I've got from him......... j "mouse hands" b :asian: *



hee hee...... well, don't tell him.:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _*
> I have always been curious about the extensions.
> I like to document what principles i learn and where they occur in the curriculum. Id like to know the names of the new principles found in the extensions?
> 
> I'm not looking for explanations of the new principles, just there labels. (ex. economy of motion, point of origin, black dot focus)
> *



In the back of the Infinite Insights you will find a glossary filled with terms that are used throughout the system.  Also the Encyclopedia of Kenpo will be extremely useful in that quest.

If you are working on the extensions you are certainly at a level of training that you can list the principles of each move of your self-defense techniques. Do not omit this work. In accounting for the principles of each of these extensions you may: find their association to previous movements and sequences, discover new principles, and lay a better foundation for new material.

My students that take private or group lessons or individuals that attend any of my Seminars are a source of information, as well as my advanced Kenpo manuals which have much of the material that you seek, however I reserve that for my IKKO members.

A sample of what I am refering to......

Take "CLUTCHING FEATHERS" for instance....

1. FIRST MOVE

1.  Point of Origin 
2.  Depth of Action
........a. Create Distance       
3.  Body Rotation
........a. Width change
        b. Clockwise/counter clockwise
4.  Minimize Target
5.  Pinning Check
........a. Anchor Elbow
6.  Angle of Disturbance 
7.  Angle of Cancellation
8.  Stabilize Your Base
........a. Keep knees flexible
........b. Settle
..............a. Height
9.  Body Alignment
10. Back-Up Mass
11. Angle of Execution
12. Counter Manipulation
13. Contouring
........a. Fitting
........b. Pin Point Effect
14. Angle of Incidence
15. Path of action
16. Breathing
17. Others

2.  SECOND MOVE

1.  Angle of Delivery
2.  Depth of Action
........a. Decrease Distance
3.  Body Momentum
........a. Rotational
     b. Vertical/Diagonal
........c. Forward
4.  Maximize Width of Action
5.  Angle of Execution
........a. Block - UP THE CIRCLE
........b. Heel Palm
6.  Body Alignment
7.  Back-Up Mass
8.  With	
9.  Borrowed Force
10. Bracing Angle 
........a. Forward Bow
11. Defensive - Offense
	a. Lock Out

12. etc. etc.

I think you get the idea.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtsGuy

Thank you Mr. C

Im going to have to get the Encyclopedia, i think it would help me alot. Does the encyclopedia list where the principles are first introduced. 

That way i have a way to gage what is from where and how they relate to each other in terms of what is more advanced material.

Thanks again
 :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _*
> Does the encyclopedia list where the principles are first introduced.
> 
> That way I have a way to gage what is from where and how they relate to each other in terms of what is more advanced material.
> *



The Encyclopedia will be of great help.  No it does not tell exactly where each principle occurs in any given technique, you will have to research and study that on your own.  

As far as gauging what is from where -  and what is considered advanced material goes, the principles occur in all the techniques.  Some contain different or specific ones than others and yet some are present in ALL techniques (i.e., point of origin), but as your knowledge grows, you will understand the difference between embryonic material that is taught in the lower ranks and the sophisticated material that develops as you progress thru the ranks.  

Often times it is your maturity and understanding in the art that is the difference as your knowledge and skills increase not a particular technique, form, set or belt level that exposes such material.

:asian:


----------



## MartialArtsGuy

I see what you are saying Mr. C

Thanks for the help, That last sentence in your last post helps to put things into perspective. 
Your guidance on this matter is valued and appriciated.

In light of all this, would i be correct to say that the extensions are a more mature expression of what has already been learned, desiqned to help a kenpoists express motion and the principles in a more individualized manner, which is free of the initial structured training method. I do notice some more elaborate foot work, methods of closing the distance, and a few other goodies?

Damn i hope that made sense, im reading it now and im not sure if it does.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *I see what you are saying Mr. C
> 
> 
> 
> In light of all this, would i be correct to say that the extensions are a more mature expression of what has already been learned, desiqned to help a kenpoists express motion and the principles in a more individualized manner, which is free of the initial structured training method. I do notice some more elaborate foot work, methods of closing the distance, and a few other goodies?
> 
> Damn i hope that made sense, im reading it now and im not sure if it does.
> 
> *




The extensions can also be considered "what ifs", grafting methods.    There is also a built in timing, regulating, and monitoring aspect in them as well as dimensional striking.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## MartialArtsGuy

Thanx for the extra info clyde, dont hesitate to lend a helping hand in the future. :asian:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Ben22 _
> *Thanx for the extra info clyde, dont hesitate to lend a helping hand in the future. :asian: *



Ahhhhh, all it gets me is trouble when I do, but thanks.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## kenpochip

Mr. C,

Do you think that there is a "special" degree of black belt at
which the degree holder's rank makes (or SHOULD make) them a sort of trans-organizational resource in the kenpo world?

For example, at Nth degree, should high-ranking individuals from other organizations be brought in to confirm the individual's entitlement to wear that Nth degree, as opposed to a single organization's bestowing of that rank?  There may be other implications of this "special" trans-organizational recognition, but I haven't thought through all of them.

If you agree with this concept, what, in your mind, is that Nth degree?


Thanks,

KenpoChip


----------



## lodestone

I am curious to know more about Jim Mitchell.  

On another thread there was talk about his influence on the yellow belt techniques, in reference to Alternating Maces.  What was his involvement with the development of the system as we know it?  

I know he split from Mr. Parker in the early 80's (around 82 or 83, I believe).  Supposedly he was running several of Parker's schools in the San Diego area.

Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt.  I was told that the belt he wears was left to him by Mr. Parker after his passing.  Why has he disappeared?  Why does it appear like he is "hiding" or in "exile"?  I know there were some personal differences among other kenpo leaders, but I haven't the slightest clue as to what.  Ego? or Kenpological differences?

I am doing my Black Belt thesis on the comparison and contrast of the different arrangements of the system, i.e. 24 techs, 16.  I originally studied Jim Mitchell's arrangement of the system, which is more Form based than the others. (Techniques on a particular list reflect greatly the Form associated with that belt)

Well, if there are any answers to these questions, I would extremely greatful.

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by lodestone _
> *Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt. *



It's cojones  And if I'm to wear in a long away future a 10th degree belt, I'll surely not have them :rofl: :lol: :rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> Mr. C,  Do you think that there is a "special" degree of black belt at which the degree holder's rank makes (or SHOULD make) them a sort of trans-organizational resource in the kenpo world?
> Thanks,  KenpoChip *



Not really but it would be nice to see a less fragmented system.



> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> For example, at Nth degree, should high-ranking individuals from other organizations be brought in to confirm the individual's entitlement to wear that Nth degree,
> Thanks,  KenpoChip *



This would be very hard to do since many have different agendas and opinions on what they teach.  Again it would be great to be able to work together within various organizations.



> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> What do you think about a single organization's bestowing of that rank i.e., (10th Degree)?
> Thanks,  KenpoChip *



I think it lends much more credibility to the individual if his/her peers all get together and award that high of degree than just the students and followers of said organization.



> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> If you agree with this concept, what, in your mind, is that Nth degree?
> Thanks,  KenpoChip *



Like I already stated... I don't think this is a difficult issue but, if it were I believe that 9ths and 10ths would be the appropriate  positions of higher communication and exchange between organizations which from their examples would trickle down to the masses and create a much better environment of unity than we have at this point.

But that's just my opinion.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I am curious to know more about Jim Mitchell.  On another thread there was talk about his influence on the yellow belt techniques, in reference to Alternating Maces.  What was his involvement with the development of the system as we know it?
> Thanks, Matt *



From what I saw,  he was of some help in the early 80's to Mr. Parker until he left the organization.  Mr. Parker was at that time starting to organize better the curriculums and he just happened to be there at that time.  I was involved as well as Skip Hancock and others during this period.  I was there during one of his lessons once and from what I saw he was still learning the system.   What ever his involvement was, usual Mr. Parker would run it by several others for opinions and critique as well.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I know he split from Mr. Parker in the early 80's (around 82 or 83, I believe).  Supposedly he was running several of Parker's schools in the San Diego area.
> Thanks, Matt *



His background was in the Tracy system then he converted back to the original Ed Parker System, he was in San Diego at this time, and would drive up for lessons, to my knowledge he was not running several of Mr. Parkers studios, but was only in control his own.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Another point: He is listed as one of the very few kenpoists to have the, *ahem*, cajones(?) to wear a 10th degree belt.
> Thanks, Matt *



Well, I don't know about "cojones" lol, but he did leave Mr. Parker and go back to Tracy and get promoted up there, until he strapped on the 10th Degree, he only appears on my list of 10ths (just as everyone else that has decided to wear this rank) only to list those that "claim" that rank.  It is in way a validation from me or anyone else but rather a listing of what they have decided to wear.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I was told that the belt he wears was left to him by Mr. Parker after his passing.
> Matt *



He had a nice belt made for Mr. Parker when he was studying with him.  It is my understanding that after Mr. Parker died, he went to Mrs. Parker and asked for that belt back, and as I understand it .......... she gave him back the belt that he had made for Mr. Parker originally.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Why has he disappeared?  Why does it appear like he is "hiding" or in "exile"?  I know there were some personal differences among other kenpo leaders, but I haven't the slightest clue as to what.  Ego? or Kenpological differences?
> Thanks, Matt *



After he left Mr. Parker, I have heard very little from him......  Who knows why he is like you said "hiding" or in "exile" lol you'll have to find him and ask him direct  .......... I'm sure there are  many that would like to know where he is.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I am doing my Black Belt thesis on the comparison and contrast of the different arrangements of the system, i.e. 24 techs, 16.  I originally studied Jim Mitchell's arrangement of the system, which is more Form based than the others. (Techniques on a particular list reflect greatly the Form associated with that belt)
> Thanks, Matt *



I don't know exactly when you studied with him or what "arrangements" you were taught,  so I can't comment.  If you studied with him after he left Mr. Parker, the arrangements, that you were taught are very possibly different than the ones that Mr. Parker arranged.

:asian:


----------



## lodestone

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> 
> Well, I don't know about "cojones" lol, but he did leave Mr. Parker and go back to Tracy and get promoted up there, until he strapped on the 10th Degree, he only appears on my list of 10ths (just as everyone else that has decided to wear this rank) only to list those that "claim" that rank.  It is in way a validation from me or anyone else but rather a listing of what they have decided to wear.
> 
> 
> 
> He had a nice belt made for Mr. Parker when he was studying with him.  It is my understanding that after Mr. Parker died, he went to Mrs. Parker and asked for that belt back, and as I understand it .......... she gave him back the belt that he had made for Mr. Parker originally.



Wow... That is *very* interesting...





> *
> I don't know exactly when you studied with him or what "arrangements" you were taught,  so I can't comment.  If you studied with him after he left Mr. Parker, the arrangements, that you were taught are very possibly different than the ones that Mr. Parker arranged.
> 
> *



The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black.  2nd Black had 32 techniques.

The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system.  They were moved around quiet a bit.

Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell?  Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death.  I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.   

I've heard lots of rumors and whispers, but I would like to hear first hand accounts.

Oh, and you mentioned something about witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker.  Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique?  I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn!


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by lodestone _
> *Wow... That is *very* interesting...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black.  2nd Black had 32 techniques.
> 
> The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system.  They were moved around quiet a bit.
> 
> Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell?  Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death.  I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.
> 
> I've heard lots of rumors and whispers, but I would like to hear first hand accounts.
> 
> Oh, and you mentioned something about witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker.  Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique?  I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn! *



You might want to try the forum on www.kenponet.com ... a lot
more seniors post there, than here.


----------



## kenpochip

Mr. C. ,

thanks for your reply.

KenpoChip


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Wow... That is *very* interesting...
> *



I find the truth unique to say the least.  



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> The system had 16 techniques per belt all the way through 1st Black.  2nd Black had 32 techniques.  The order of the techniques was also different than the traditional EPAK system.  They were moved around quiet a bit.
> *



Go to my website ............  http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/requirements.htm 
and view the curriculum...... if it is different than that ....... it was not Ed Parker's doing.  My curriculum that is posted was ok'd by the Kahuna!



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Do you know of anyone else that may have background info about Mitchell?
> *



Sure, there are plenty that know about Mitchell, Chape'l, Hancock, Trejo, Kelly, and a host of others.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Supposedly he (Mitchell) continued to train with Parker up until his death.  I do know he was at the very least, still in contact with Mr. Parker after he left the IKKA.
> *



I highly doubt that he "trained" with Mr. Parker after he "left" the IKKA, keeping in contact is another issue, Mr. Parker always liked to keep in "contact" with everyone - friend and foe alike!



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Oh, and you mentioned witnessing a lesson that Mitchell had from Parker.  Do you say he was still learning the system because he was being taught a completely new technique?  I was curious because I am always learning the system; there's always more to learn! *



Yes, he and I were debating several issues on techniques and/or forms (Bruce Tomson my student, at the time was also present), in which he was greatly in need of correction. 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by kenpochip _*
> Mr. C. , thanks for your reply.  KenpoChip
> *




Your welcome!!  anytime.

:asian:


----------



## lodestone

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> I find the truth unique to say the least.


As do I!



> Yes, he and I were debating several issues on techniques and/or forms (Bruce Tomson my student, at the time was also present), in which he was greatly in need of correction.


I don't suppose you can recall the situation.  I guess this whole thing makes me question the validity of my kenpo.  Is what I learned not valid EPAK?  The arrangement of the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell.  In Mr. Mitchell's defense, the kenpo I have learned is amazingly accurate, i.e. it matches, or varies only slightly, what I see on the rest of the Net.


----------



## jazkiljok

Besides yourself obviously,  what other well known Senior and currently high ranking American Kenpoists were still studying consistently with Mr. Parker towards the end of his life?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I don't suppose you can recall the situation.
> *



Of course I recall the situation!  He was crossing over from the Tracy system and did not know all of Ed Parkers details on the system like the rest of us that are always learning.  If you are asking did he know the Ed Parker System or not well all I can say is that he knew it as well as HE knew it, not like Ed Parker knew it or anyone else.  I don't know all of what he learned only what I personally debated with him on.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I guess this whole thing makes me question the validity of my kenpo.
> *



I understand your position.  You learned what he taught you, whatever that was.  Comparing with other credible Ed Parker Students of the same era, will reveal just how close he taught or didn't teach to what others learned from Ed Parker.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Is what I learned not valid EPAK?
> *



I don't know..... is it?  I would have to look at what you have learned to tell.  If the principles are present, the skill, quality of movement, and knowledge is there, then it would be deemed good Kenpo to me I would reason.  What I do know is that you learned Kenpo  from one... Jim Mitchell, what all he taught you .... who knows?



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> The arrangement of the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell.
> *



Ok, that must tell you something then.  Even if it is the same material, HE rearranged it to suit himself and/or his group.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> In Mr. Mitchell's defense, the kenpo I have learned is amazingly accurate, i.e. it matches, or varies only slightly, what I see on the rest of the Net.
> *



I am not attacking Mitchell,  I am only answering your questions.  If you know the answers then why ask.  Earlier you stated that, and I quote "the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell" unquote.

You must be trying to trick me....... :erg:   Well, it didn't work ..... did it......:rofl: 

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _*
> Besides yourself obviously,  what other well known Senior and currently high ranking American Kenpoists were still studying consistently with Mr. Parker towards the end of his life?
> *



I am not aware of "ALL" that were stydying with Mr. Parker at the time of his death but some of them were.......
Skip Hancock
Paul Mills
Brian Duffy
Tom Kelly
Joe Palanzo
Bryan Hawkins
Jeff Speakman
Barbara Hale
Ron Chape'l
Gilbert Velez
Doreen Cogliandro
Flores Brothers
and I'm sure I left off others, its late.

:asian:


----------



## lodestone

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your position.  You learned what he taught you, whatever that was.  Comparing with other credible Ed Parker Students of the same era, will reveal just how close he taught or didn't teach to what others learned from Ed Parker.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know..... is it?  I would have to look at what you have learned to tell.  If the principles are present, the skill, quality of movement, and knowledge is there, then it would be deemed good Kenpo to me I would reason.  What I do know is that you learned Kenpo  from one... Jim Mitchell, what all he taught you .... who knows?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, that must tell you something then.  Even if it is the same material, HE rearranged it to suit himself and/or his group.
> 
> 
> I am not attacking Mitchell,  I am only answering your questions.  If you know the answers then why ask.  Earlier you stated that, and I quote "the system I originally learned was different from any other kenpo schools other than those influenced by Jim Mitchell" unquote.
> 
> 
> You must be trying to trick me....... :erg:   Well, it didn't work ..... did it......:rofl:



I didn't know the answers!   The difference I was refering to was in the order of the techniques.    I still received excellent instruction in the concepts and theories of Parker Kenpo.  Just his point of view, I suppose, on the ordering of the techniques.  

I am truly sorry if my comments or questions came across as inflamatory.  I assure you, my intentions were innocuous.  I think you have been extraordinarily helpful and forthcoming.  Thank you.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> The difference I was referring to was in the order of the techniques.
> *



Ahhhhh, now how did I miss that.  Darn...... sorry.



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I still received excellent instruction in the concepts and theories of Parker Kenpo.
> *



Well, I certainly hope so!  There is always some good in everything, besides there is soooooooo much in print now that you can pick up much just from Mr. Parkers Books (which by the way is the main source of many Instructors that never met Mr. Parker or trained with any of his personal students).



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> Just his point of view, I suppose, on the ordering of the techniques.
> *



Since he started his own organization, I'm sure he rearranged the techniques to fit his own opinion on just "where" they should be (which in itself, would not hamper the system at all).  Nearly every person that has started their own association has done this from their perspectives and personal "era" of Kenpo knowledge.  

Many have "deleted" specific techniques, forms, sets, drills, sayings, pledges, etc. to suit their own needs (personally I feel that all the material was developed for a purpose and not to have it available is decreasing the overall "profile" of the systems knowledge base).



> _Originally posted by lodestone _*
> I am truly sorry if my comments or questions came across as inflammatory.  I assure you, my intentions were innocuous.  I think you have been extraordinarily helpful and forthcoming.  Thank you.
> *



No, need to apologize, I didn't take it personally, thus the funny faces.  I know you were just interested in a different opinion.  I try to keep the history as close to reality as possible.  I find that with time, some stories get diluted or warped .....LOL...... so the best way of retaining the truth is to talk about it to many.

Thanks for your questions!
:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's.  He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories  ... or maybe he was just up on them.  

Boy, but could he fight!!!!

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


----------



## lodestone

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's.  He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories  ... or maybe he was just up on them.
> 
> Boy, but could he fight!!!!
> 
> -Michael
> Kenpo-Texas.com *



So, he was lacking an understanding of concepts like zone of sanctuary, strong-line weak-line, reverse marriage of gravity, angle of incidence, etc.?

It blows my mind to think someone could learn the techniques without understanding the concepts!

That's like not knowing the names of basics, as far as I'm concerned!!

.


----------



## Michael Billings

:rofl: 
Whoops, I said:


> I had one of Mr. Mitchell's 3rd Degree Black's studying with me in the early 90's. He knew the techniques, but they were devoid of the Principles, Concepts, and Theories ... or maybe he was just up on them.


I obviously meant *...maybe he was just NOT up on them, meaning the Principles, Concepts and Theories of EPAK.*

You would be surprised at the number of Kenpoist out there who learned from the Big Red Book or who were not "close to the source" as Mr. Parker's Kenpo evolved.  They may use words like "Torque" or "Marriage of Gravity" without much more understanding than that.  Lots of room for variation out there.  But hopefully as the number of practitioners increases, the quality and quantity of information increases (yes, I know this is wishful thinking on my part, but we can always hope.)

-Michael
*Kenpo-Texas.com*


----------



## molson

I am making the switch to EPAK from another blended system, and I for one realize my  weakness on priciples and concepts. But it is refreshing to learn them. 


Jeff Nelson


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by molson _*
> I am making the switch to EPAK from another blended system, and I for one realize my  weakness on priciples and concepts. But it is refreshing to learn them.  Jeff Nelson
> *



Yes, they add a bit of truism or understanding with a slight touch of reality to the system somehow.  I know when I started on them it was a bright sunny day.

:asian:


----------



## molson

I never realized how much I enjoyed yellow and orange techniques. I guess your never too old to learn or as they say, you can teach and old dog new tricks.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by molson _*
> I never realized how much I enjoyed yellow and orange techniques. I guess your never too old to learn or as they say, you can teach and old dog new tricks.
> *



You will always be a "student of Kenpo"......... regardless of who, where or what you already know or have accomplished.

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *You will always be a "student of Kenpo"......... regardless of who, where or what you already know or have accomplished.
> 
> :asian: *



Ok student, That means it's your turn to clean the bathroom!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _*
> Ok student, That means it's your turn to clean the bathroom! *



Just because we are students, doesn't mean we do away with the rank system "totally"!!! Now YOU go grab your   toothbrush! 
....... LOL.

:rofl:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Just because we are students, doesn't mean we do away with the rank system "totally"!!! Now YOU go grab your   toothbrush!
> ....... LOL.
> 
> :rofl: *



It broke..............


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *It broke.............. *



Likely story.


----------



## ob2c

I understand that SGM Parker was a very well rounded martial artist (obviously!). I'm curious as to what styles he studied formally, as well as others he may have worked with that influenced him.

Also I've heard, and believe, that a large part of Mr. Parkers genious was in extracting principles, cataloging them, and teaching their application in a manner relevant to our western mindset. Could you as a senior Kenpoist who studied with Mr. Parker expound on that? Possibly give some insights into the way his mind worked? I know that is asking a lot. But I'd be interested in anything you have to say on this.

And, thank you, sir, for your time and an interesting and informative thread!


----------



## Michael Billings

Create? Discover? Refine? Reanalyze? Discard? Reinforce?

-Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by ob2c _*
> I understand that SGM Parker was a very well rounded martial artist (obviously!). I'm curious as to what styles he studied formally, as well as others he may have worked with that influenced him.
> *



He played sports (football) boxed, did judo, and toyed with several different forms of the martial arts thru watching or with freinds that were involved (taekwondo, hapkido, kali, anris, etc.).  Masa Oyama, Ohsima, James Lee, Ark Wong, Bruce Lee, Lau Boon sp?, and many, many others he would observe and compair their movements.



> _Originally posted by ob2c _*
> A large part of Mr. Parkers genious was in extracting principles, cataloging them, and teaching their application in a manner relevant to our western mindset. Could you as a senior Kenpoist who studied with Mr. Parker expound on that? Possibly give some insights into the way his mind worked?
> *



Well, he was an educated man with an inquisitive mind.  He loved to analyize what he was studying and catagorize for easy reference what he found.   Since the Kenpo was his topic and playground, this is what and where he played.... and inserted all his skills and attention to develop what he gave us to continue with.



> _Originally posted by ob2c _*
> And, thank you, sir, for your time and an interesting and informative thread!
> *



Thank You...... I'm glad you are enjoying it.  Many have some good comments.

:asian:


----------



## ob2c

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Create? Discover? Refine? Reanalyze? Discard? Reinforce?*



All that, and probably more!

When I work out with other stylists, I can see a lot of the principles at work in what they do. But AK often does it better. So those principles woud possibly have been discovered, pulled out, reanalized, and subsumed under Mr. Parkers methodology. Excess movement would have been discarded. Then techniques created to teach and reinforce the principles.  



Gd7, thanks for the reply, and the insight into Mr. Parkers' personality.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by ob2c _*
> All that, and probably more!  Gd7, thanks for the reply, and the insight into Mr. Parkers' personality.
> *



That's what this thread is for....  Questions that you shoot at me.  I may not know all or the correct answers but I'll give it my best shot.  **  wink ** 

:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

I know you are making Sigung's Gathering this coming weekend.  Are you going to be able to swing John Sepulveda's California Spirit Camp the next weekend?

Hope you make it.

-Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I know you are making Sigung's Gathering this coming weekend.  Are you going to be able to swing John Sepulveda's California Spirit Camp the next weekend?  Hope you make it.
> -Michael
> *



Don't know yet.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Which is more important:...........
"Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?

:asian:


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Which is more important:...........
> "Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?
> 
> :asian: *



Always TIME! The more seasoned the person is, the better. Age and winsdom will always win out.:asian:


----------



## tunetigress

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Always TIME! The more seasoned the person is, the better. Age and winsdom will always win out.:asian: *



This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here!  Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank?  Maybe there's hope for me yet!


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by tunetigress _
> *This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here!  Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank?  Maybe there's hope for me yet!    *



Demeaning? Never. We're all on our separate path, and will influence others below us as we guide them. The ones above us will be there to guide us, in return.:asian:


----------



## Elfan

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Which is more important:...........
> "Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?
> 
> :asian: *



Time as measured by amount of training they have done, not by how many "years" they have in the art.


----------



## Klondike93

Well someone had to lie about it  :rofl: 

It used to be in the old days that one was reflection of the other, but now it seems to be all about rank.   


 

Klondike (aka Chuck)


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by tunetigress _
> *This bodes well for all us old and wise underbelts out here!  Does this means it's not a demeaning thing to take forever to advance in rank?  Maybe there's hope for me yet!    *


How long you take isn't the issue, it's the quality you develop in that time.  Of course, as we grow older and incur illness or injury, somethings necessitate change in the way we do things.  So, you may be stronger at one thing than I am, or vice versa, either way, it doesn't negate your knowledge or skill, it just makes us individual.  And I agree with Ricardo, we mid-level black belts are here to guide the underbelts and the senior black belts are here to guide us.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Seig _*
> The senior black belts are here to guide us.
> *



Now you just have to listen!   

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Which is more important:...........
> "Time" in the Art or "Rank" in the Art?
> 
> :asian: *



Quality!!

There's black belts there with lots of years of training that work exactly the same as they did when they tested for they black and haven't learned a thing since...


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *we mid-level black belts are here to guide the underbelts and the senior black belts are here to guide us. *



Well,

Falling in line with my normally critical modus operandi let me ask a few questions. 

1) what grade would you give the AK mid-level black belts in this pursuit to "guide" in general?

2) what have you found to be the most difficult part of this responsibility?

3) the above statement implies a pecking order, are "underbelts" not allowed to go straight to the well for a drink?

jb:asian:


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *We're all on our separate path, and will influence others below us as we guide them.*



I would argue that "guidance" which is really "knowledge" doesn't always follow the direction of gravity.

jb:asian:


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Well,
> 
> Falling in line with my normally critical modus operandi let me ask a few questions. *


I'll do my best to answer them.


> *
> 1) what grade would you give the AK mid-level black belts in this pursuit to "guide" in general?*


I'm not sure exactly what  you mean by this question, but if I am interpreting it correctly, I call 2nd, 3rd and 4th Degree Black belts "mid-level".  That is *MY* interpretation.


> *
> 2) what have you found to be the most difficult part of this responsibility?*


The most difficult thing to me, is passing along the knowledge I have gained at a pace slower than I would like.  Sometimes it is difficult to remember that not everyone has my passion for Kenpo, and Ihave a tendency to try and give too much information to fast for it to be internalized and understood properly.


> *3) the above statement implies a pecking order, are "underbelts" not allowed to go straight to the well for a drink?
> *


I do not feel that a blanket answer can really cover that.  I do feel that to a degree it is disrepectful for a student to go over his instructor's head to the instructor's instructor.  There may be times or situations where this is acceptable. It all depends on the situation and the practitioners involved.  I do believe there is a "pecking order".  For example, I would be highly displeased with one of my orange belts calling Mr. Conatser at home for help on kicking set.  On the other hand,I have students preparing for their black belts, and since Mr. C is the head of the organization and in charge of the promoting body, I may not have an issue of they called him for input on their thesis or maybe about an Insight on Long 4 or their personal form that I may not have had.  But, if htey took such an action without securing both my and Mr. C's permission first, I would be displeased with them.   Nor would I find it acceptable for me to call Mr. LaBounty because I disagreed with Mr C or I wanted to know something I was told I was not ready for.  Those are just examples.


----------



## ikenpo

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *I'll do my best to answer them.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what  you mean by this question, but if I am interpreting it correctly, I call 2nd, 3rd and 4th Degree Black belts "mid-level".  That is MY interpretation.
> 
> The most difficult thing to me, is passing along the knowledge I have gained at a pace slower than I would like.  Sometimes it is difficult to remember that not everyone has my passion for Kenpo, and Ihave a tendency to try and give too much information to fast for it to be internalized and understood properly.
> 
> I do not feel that a blanket answer can really cover that.  I do feel that to a degree it is disrepectful for a student to go over his instructor's head to the instructor's instructor.  There may be times or situations where this is acceptable. It all depends on the situation and the practitioners involved.  I do believe there is a "pecking order".  For example, I would be highly displeased with one of my orange belts calling Mr. Conatser at home for help on kicking set.  On the other hand,I have students preparing for their black belts, and since Mr. C is the head of the organization and in charge of the promoting body, I may not have an issue of they called him for input on their thesis or maybe about an Insight on Long 4 or their personal form that I may not have had.  But, if htey took such an action without securing both my and Mr. C's permission first, I would be displeased with them.   Nor would I find it acceptable for me to call Mr. LaBounty because I disagreed with Mr C or I wanted to know something I was told I was not ready for.  Those are just examples. *



Fair answers, 

On grade I was referring to pass/fail or A thru F...

I agree with the 2nd answer and partially agree with the 3rd answer based on your situation (i.e. head of a school, etc..). Thanks for the input.

jb


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> *Fair answers,
> 
> On grade I was referring to pass/fail or A thru F...
> 
> I agree with the 2nd answer and partially agree with the 3rd answer based on your situation (i.e. head of a school, etc..). Thanks for the input.
> 
> jb *


JB,
    I don't feel that I am qualified to give a pass/fail grade to others teaching the art.  On the whole it is a delicate subject.


----------



## brianhunter

Hey Mr C!

     Sorry for not letting your thread go away 

1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?

2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?

3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?

Thanks much Sir
Brian


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Hey Mr C!
> 
> Sorry for not letting your thread go away
> 
> 1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?
> 
> 2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?
> 
> 3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?
> 
> Thanks much Sir
> Brian *



Hi folks!
Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...

1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?
2.Mr. Parker on several occasions tried to get Prof. Chow to come to the mainland with no sucess. He would also look at certain techniques and from his past experience on the streets of the kalihi district and see that some of the movements were not practical ,per se, in modern encounters. As far as offically when it happened, I'd probably say the 1960's where the actual "parting of the ways" occured.
3.The approximate date that Mr. Parker donned the tenth Degree Black Belt was subsiquent to the creation and completion of what was originally titled "Advanced Kenpo". However, Jay T. Will had recently published a book with that titile, So, Mr. Parker used "infinite insights into kenpo". That was his "masterpiece".

I think what Brian is trying to get to is that Ed Parker had a logical progression in regards to his rank promotions and agenda for the requirements he had for his ranks.
at one point some of his students got together and said to Mr. Parker "Mr. Parker, we feel that you should wear the Tenth Degree Black Belt." He got very offended and said to the person "I'LL tell YOU when i'm ready to wear a tenth!"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> *...So, Mr. Parker used "infinite insights into kenpo". That was his "masterpiece"....*



Joe and Mr. C;

Would either of you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

I took Book 5 into Mr. Duffy last night to go over the salutation.  It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

And is there anything else that was "snuck in" like that?

Thanks in advance.
:asian:


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> *Hi folks!
> Brian asked me these questions this morning so I thought i'd answer them here as well...
> 
> 1.Mr. Parker did indeed receive his black belt from Prof. Chow and the actual certificate he received is featured in the "Memories of Ed Parker" book. I'm in the process of relocating my studio so if someone would be so kind as to look and place the date on this thread?*




June 5th, 1953

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/kirknchristy/EKPDiploma.jpg


----------



## KENPOJOE

D Hall wrote,
"Joe and Mr. C;

Would either of you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"

I took Book 5 into Mr. Duffy last night to go over the salutation. It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.

So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.

And is there anything else that was "snuck in" like that?"

Hi Doug!
There are several typos in the infinite insights series,mostly due to re-editing of the original documents. Originally, the forms were supposed to be pictures of Lee Wedlake, but were redone as drawings by Ed Parker Jr. Since the pictures were of Mr. Wedlake,perhaps you can email him for more details? 

There are 2 schools of thought regarding the American Kenpo salutation. 
One states that you signify with your right fingers pointing to the left hand so you can show "the right side of the form" and do opposite for the left side. However, you must retract the hand to chamber if you are to go through the full salutation at that point.

The second method has you pointing at the side you are performing [so that you point to the right hand first, then the left] I use the later method because you can move from point of origin from the signifying hand from the left side. for a smoother transition.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE​


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> 1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?
> 2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and impliment his own system of kenpo?
> 3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?
> Thanks much Sir, Brian
> *



Some really good questions....... I had to do a little checking.... but here are my best "guesses".....



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> 1) How long was Mr Parker training before he earned his black belt?
> *



He had trained in several things including boxing, wrestling, and judo for about 6 or seven years prior to his black belt.  So I would say close to 3 or 4 years to get his Black Belt (which was in '53 {he was 22}).



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> 2) How long was Mr Parker at the art when he decided to break off and implement his own system of kenpo?
> *



This was about the year 1956 or 1957 when he started his studio or shortly after.  
[so about 8 to 10 years of experience]



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> 3) How long at the art was he when he donned a 10th?
> *



This was on or very close to the Internationals in 1976 or 1977.
{approximately 27 to 30 years}

These time lines are probably close however, the "time and era" that Ed Parker was in was critical.  He laid the foundation of much of the material and thinking for "EVERYONE AFTER"  if you look at what was going on at the time, he developed and organized much of what "all" have in some way, shape, or form, borrowed, rearranged or built upon.  It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to duplicate what Ed Parker developed, no matter what the time frame.  To compare today's 10ths with Ed Parker's accomplishments is silly to me.  

Ed Parker IS and always will be the "Senior" Grandmaster and "Founder" of this system and train of thought {American Kenpo},  no one should take those titles that belong truthfully to him.  Now, there could be Senior Masters of the Art {10th Degrees} and if you have your own offshoot Association be a Grandmaster of that group with no problem.  But, "Senior Grandmaster and Founder" I feel belong ONLY to Mr. Parker unless your system is at least 60 % totally different than his..... (none today are, that I know of yet).

Ed Parker, was "THE" spark that started the flame that started the fire which now has become American Kenpo and all of its offspring.

Just my opinion.....
:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> Would you comment on the stuff in Infinite Insights that was put in "wrong?"
> *


ok



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> I looked Book 5 to go over the salutation.  It seems that the open hand signifies the side you are doing, however we always use the Left and then Right open hands to announce the form but then proceed to do the Right side first.
> *



No, that is incorrect, it was a misprint.  One thing that you must realize it that at the time of that publication the method of mock up was "cut and paste" not the clean digital editing of today.  So there were unfortunately several typos and cut an paste errors.

The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on.

Many have created "variations" to indicate performing specifically one side or the other in many different ways over the years, but this was his last salutation of choice.



> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> So was that put in "wrong" to trip people up? Or do I misunderstand the Salutation.
> *



I believe that it was just an oversight.  However, Ed Parker was known to throw in little differences to see who was learning what from where [he did this a lot when he was asked to film things in the early years].

:asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *...
> The last revision that Ed Parker worked on was: to point to the left hand, finger signal, then point to the right hand, finger signal with the appropriate "finger announcement" of the form you were doing, then from the right side you come up to the right shoulder and advance with the cat and warrior/scholar presentation and so on....*



Thank you both, sirs.  This is how Mr. Duffy explained it to me.  However this also seems the opposite of how KenpoJoe just explained it.  

KenpoJoe, would you confirm for me if the above is the way you do it, or if your "finger pointing fist" is across your body in front of your left hand when you then draw it back across your right shoulder to begin your salute.

I am just curious to know if I understood KenpoJoe correctly.  Thank you.
:asian:


----------



## Kirk

1.  I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how 
long till black?  

2.  Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among 
seniors?

3.  Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH MUCH
longer to earn 1, than it did theirs?  Was something added to
the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> 1.  I know it varies, and I know it has so many factors involved, but in your opinion, an average yet hard working student, how
> long till black?
> *



In my experience with the way I train people it takes about 4-6 years.  This does vary from case to case but on an average this is close.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> 2.  Why does the answer to number 1 vary so much among
> seniors?
> *



I don't think the word "seniors" is the issue but rather "instructors".   Different instructors {Seniors or not} all have different perspectives and backgrounds on training.  I think mostly it depends on your lineage and personal training experiences and what each individual wants.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> 3.  Why do some feel it's necessary to make it take MUCH - MUCH
> longer to earn 1, than it did theirs?
> *



That  you will have to ask each instructor individually.  As for my personal answer...... I wish someone would earn one under me in record breaking time, hell, if they put out the effort and can do the material I have no problem promoting an eager, enthusiastic, knowledgeable, and skilled student..... I dream of those students....... LOL



> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Was something added to the system to make you less effective at the varied ranks?
> *



There was a lot of technical information developed in the 80's.  This information has now crept into most of the curriculums.  With today's communication tools, such as the internet, we have faster access to much more than at any of our prior times in our evolution {students today ask technical questions they have got from the internet to some instructors that the instructor has not heard of before}.  I think this has something to do with the length of time in ranks today.

but that is just my opinion........
:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Prof C,

I think you hit the nail on the head with your last answer in the previous post.  The volume of information available is staggering ... whoops, I just staggered, well, I listed a bit to port, but am back on course now.  

Really looking forward to next month.  I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.

Oss,
-Michael


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> * I hope everything works out so you can visit Austin.
> *



Me too


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> Me too
> *



:boing2:


----------



## Goldendragon7




----------



## Elfan

What are the dimensional stages of action?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> What are the dimensional stages of action?
> *



That is the updated term for the old phrase "Bridging the Gap"

1)  Out of Range
2)  In Range
3)  Contact Penetration
4)  Contact Manipulation

:asian:


----------



## Elfan

What constitutes "in range."  That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?

Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> What constitutes "in range."  That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?
> *



Yes, you can make contact and it "can" be meaningful (grabbing, controlling, etc.) depending upon your definition of meaningful. lol



> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> Also, when did you say the DSA was developed as a teaching tool?
> *



I don't know that I did, but I would say around 1986.

:asian:


----------



## Elfan

hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> What constitutes "in range." That I can make contact but not penetrate in a meaningful way?



You are correct.  In range is a surface phenomenon.  This simply means that you can, by way of foot maneuvers and stance changes, make surface contact (minor strike, grab, etc.).  Think of contact penetration as one of those bunker buster bombs.  When you are in contact penetration range you are not simply able to hit the target, but you are able to damage the target by striking 3-6 inches beyond the point of surface contact.  

Contact manipulation is simply a range where you are ALREADY in contact with that individual (Crossing Talon, Gripping talon, the Clinch, etc.).


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Elfan _*
> hmm well if I can grab *and* control woudn't that put me at contact manipulation?
> *



Not necessarily....... just because you can grab and control momentarily, does not clearly define exactly "what" range you or a portion or you (say hand or foot) are at.  Manipulation is the closest range then works outward to contact penetration, then in range then out of range....... but then again, you know this. 

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I would be interested in looking at what he did.
> 
> *



Ok, I've finally written it down. It probably needs some rewording to make it clearer, but I didn't know how to write it better...

It's name comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power, except for the kick. 

The form/set is done almost completely in a low horse stance, or at least lower than a regular horse stance.

1.- From attention stance, step left into a horse stance while doing a right horizontal claw (palm loocking downwards) and left vertical claw  (as if checking) moving slowly from right to left.
2.- Reverse the motion and do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw.
3.- Cross your hands while going upwards and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws.
4.- Do double downward claws (they follow parallel paths).
5.- Step to 6:00 with right foot into a very low dragon stance (it is like a reverse bow). Do a right upward claw simultaneously (it must be a circular clockwise movement) and follow the motion until both arms are parallel  and facing each other (left over right). Finish movement by tearing apart with both hands. Right hand must now be back and high, and ready to attack; and left, low in front, checking.
6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00. Do double downward claws.
7.- Step back with right foot and then to 3:00 into a horse stance, crossing your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncrossing at head level to deliver double downward claws.
8.- Do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw, as in 2.
9.- Do right a to left right horizontal claw and left vertical claw, as in 1.
10.- Salute with left palm over right fist and close.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> Ok, I've finally written the form down. It's name "Tiger Breathing"  comes from the tiger claws you execute throughout the form, and also because you execute all the movements breathing slowly and with tension instead of power.
> *



Thanks mucho!  This should be fun to play with.

again thanks KenpoMachine for taking the time and effort!!

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

You're welcome!   
And enjoy it!!


----------



## Jill666

I'm having trouble with #5 but let it percolate a bit- you lost me at "circular clockwise movement". What is the left doing? How do they end up parallel? 

Up to that point and from #6 on is clear. I just get lost in that one move. 


:cuss: 

If you can figure another way to write that set I would be in your debt :asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

The left does a smaller circle, but I've yet to figure what it's meant to be.


----------



## Jill666

Oh- okay! *light bulb goes on over head*

Gotcha. A similar move is also in Saifa, which I just had the pleasure of screwing up repeatedly in class. Now I can see it. 

Many thanks!


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Thanks mucho!  This should be fun to play with.
> 
> again thanks KenpoMachine for taking the time and effort!!
> 
> :asian: *



I can't find the original source of this "thread."



> *I would be interested in looking at what he did. *



Where did this come from?  Looking at what who did?  Where?

Sorry I got lost.  Mr. C. Should publish this thread as a book.  I thnk I printed the first 30pages, but that was last year....


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I can't find the original source of this "thread."
> 
> 
> 
> Where did this come from?  Looking at what who did?  Where?
> 
> Sorry I got lost.  Mr. C. Should publish this thread as a book.  I thnk I printed the first 30pages, but that was last year....
> *



It was like one month ago. I had to go back myself quite many pages to find it again...


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *1.- From attention stance, step left into a horse stance while doing a right horizontal claw (palm loocking downwards) and left vertical claw  (as if checking) moving slowly from right to left.
> 2.- Reverse the motion and do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw.
> 3.- Cross your hands while going upwards and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws.
> 4.- Do double downward claws (they follow parallel paths).
> 5.- Step to 6:00 with right foot into a very low dragon stance (it is like a reverse bow). Do a right upward claw simultaneously (it must be a circular clockwise movement) and follow the motion until both arms are parallel  and facing each other (left over right). Finish movement by tearing apart with both hands. Right hand must now be back and high, and ready to attack; and left, low in front, checking.
> 6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00. Do double downward claws.
> 7.- Step back with right foot and then to 3:00 into a horse stance, crossing your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncrossing at head level to deliver double downward claws.
> 8.- Do a left to right left horizontal claw and right vertical claw, as in 2.
> 9.- Do right a to left right horizontal claw and left vertical claw, as in 1.
> 10.- Salute with left palm over right fist and close. *



There is a mistake in #6 and #7. Visual memory is worse than muscle memory, and I wrote the set in an IT class.

6.- Pivot counterclockwise into a left forward bow, cross your hands while going upwards at the same time and then uncross at head level to deliver double downward claws. Then do a high front right kick and land smoothly to 12:00 into a horse stance. 
7.- Do double downward claws.


----------



## Kenpomachine

At what time there were only 35 techniques in the curriculum? I think that was what was taught to me the first time I got into a kenpo class in the 80's. 
We were somewhat behind, uh?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> At what time there were only 35 techniques in the curriculum? I think that was what was taught to me the first time I got into a kenpo class in the 80's.
> *



I don't know of a time when there were "only" 35 Techniques.  

There WAS a time when the Orange - Purple - Blue & Green, had 32  techniques per belt.

If that is what you mean.

:asian:


----------



## Kenpomachine

No, not exactly. 
When kenpo first arrived to Spain it only had 35 techniques. One of the explanations go like this, that those were the techniques Arturo Petit knew by the time he had to left Ed Parker's side at the beginning.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _*
> One of the explanations go like this, that those were the techniques Arturo Petit knew at that time.
> *



That I don't know but could be.

:asian:


----------



## Ender

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *I think the big deal is that he parted with Mr. Parker in the 80's on bad terms and also that his Panther videos promoted him as a/the Kenpo Master when Mr. Parker was alive (I think) and that didn't seem right.
> :asian: *



Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that. I have never met him, I don't know if he's friendly or not. Or approachable or a good teacher.

But when I saw his tapes, it was like an epiphany. I thought "that's what kenpo is supposed to be!". Now that is not a slam against other instructors. I have seen many good ones, and some bad ones. Some have thier mechanics done well...some move with great fluidity. But Tatum has it all, in my opinion. If you get a chance to see him move do so. I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move.


----------



## Seig

Mr. C,
I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques.


----------



## webpage20022003

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> * I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move. *



i hope he doesn't move like a girl  
   
just a joke


----------



## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move. *



I thought there was no standard?  I thought Kenpo was an art
that you could taylor and customize to suit yourself, and your own
size/height/weight/ability/disability ???


----------



## kenpo3631

How  many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll tootsie pop?:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I thought there was no standard?  I thought Kenpo was an art
> that you could taylor and customize to suit yourself, and your own
> size/height/weight/ability/disability ???  *



 Certainly there is no standard type of movement, it's an idea.    Get behind the wheel of a brand new Ford Focus and drive it for awhile.   Then get behind the wheel of a Brand new Northstar Cadillac and tell me which one would you rather have if you had the choice.  You're going to pick the one that suits you, your style of driving, what the use of the vehicle is, etc..   Same thing in Kenpo, you can feel the differences and see the difference.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## sumdumguy

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that. I have never met him, I don't know if he's friendly or not. Or approachable or a good teacher.
> 
> But when I saw his tapes, it was like an epiphany. I thought "that's what kenpo is supposed to be!". Now that is not a slam against other instructors. I have seen many good ones, and some bad ones. Some have thier mechanics done well...some move with great fluidity. But Tatum has it all, in my opinion. If you get a chance to see him move do so. I think he sets the standard of how Kenpo artist should move. *



Hmmmmm??? Having dummied for Mr. Tatum at a seminar in the Northwest I would say that he is approachable and very friendly. I think though, that you need to get out more if you had an epiphany watching his tapes..... Don't get me wrong, he does move well, as he should and would be expected for someone of his rank and experience. I just think that.... well it doesn't matter, we all have our own opinions. This is just mine, not meant to be a slight by any means. 

Have a Nice Day!!!  :asian: :asian:


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> *Well I have no idea about Larry Tatum's history, his feuds, or any of that. *



 His feuds? Man, that makes Mr. Tatum sound like a pro-wrestler! :rofl: 

 Do you think he can whup the Untertaker?  

 :rofl:


----------



## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Mr. C,
> I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques. *



If that is true, then Petit should had left Mr Parker and gone back to his country in the 60's...


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Mr. C,
> I am not sure but I thought that I read somewhere in the Jorney, that in either the 1950's or the early 60's, that the entire system at the time only had thirty some techniques. *



I'm pretty sure that Mr. Sullivan says this in Vintage Kenpo.  I don't have a copy, can someone look?  I think it is during voiceover during Black and White footage not during his conversations with Mr. Parker, Jr.
:asian:


----------



## Ender

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _
> *His feuds? Man, that makes Mr. Tatum sound like a pro-wrestler! :rofl:
> 
> Do you think he can whup the Untertaker?
> 
> :rofl: *



*LOL...nah...I was a purple belt when I saw his tapes. struggling, trying to get the moves right. I bought and borrowed some tapes of other instructors, then I saw Tatum. (BTW, at that time I had not seen SGM Parker on tape yet) and I thot, yeah, now I see what i should be targeting my techniques to be.

 and yes kenpo is different for each person, but you should see him. He does move like SGM Parker, what can i say?*L

and..this is just my opinion.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> **LOL...nah...I was a purple belt when I saw his tapes. struggling, trying to get the moves right. I bought and borrowed some tapes of other instructors, then I saw Tatum. (BTW, at that time I had not seen SGM Parker on tape yet) and I thot, yeah, now I see what i should be targeting my techniques to be.
> 
> and yes kenpo is different for each person, but you should see him. He does move like SGM Parker, what can i say?*L
> 
> and..this is just my opinion. *



Well, I hate to say it's obvious I feel the same way about the man,  I've been with him 13 years and he still WOWS me all the time with his knowledge, physical skills, and sheer projection of the art.    Watch Locking Horns on the Orange Belt tape and watch me take a hard shot to the chin, only problem was he barely moved and it hit me like a train.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## satans.barber

What curriculum do the tapes follow? i.e. is there a listing somewhere of which techniques are presented on each tape?

Thanks,

Ian.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *What curriculum do the tapes follow? i.e. is there a listing somewhere of which techniques are presented on each tape?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian. *



We do the 24 system as outlined in Infinite Insights.    You can ck Larry's website at  www.ltatum.com and get the info.    Each tape has 12 techs on it and they are about an hour long, some more, some less.    Really good tapes for learning new material to be worked on with an instructor and they act as an artificial memory.   I can't tell you how many times I used the tapes when I was learning the extensions to green.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## satans.barber

Thanks Clyde, our syllabus is in a totally different order, so I'll have to see if I can find a tape that's got quite a lot of our techniques on. They do seem to come highly recommended by pretty much everyoen!

Ian.


----------



## satans.barber

Hmm, I've printed off a big list of the EPAK 24 syllabus, and gone through it highlighting all the techniques that we do in Kempo Ryu - I think there's enough similarity to warrant getting some tapes (we do 62 out of the 96 techniques in Orange to Green, and then less so after that).

I had a look at Master Tatum's site, and also the BKRU site where they're sold, but neither place lists which 12 techniques are on which volume, and I could really do with knowing (since the ones that I don't do from each belt could fall on one particular volume). I've seen the 24 techniques written in a different order for each belt that's all, in different places (the list on Master Tatum's site seem to have some duplicates and ommissions in as well).

If someone could be really kind and tell me which techniques are on Orange Vol 1, Purple Vol 1, Blue Vol 1 and Green Vol 1, I can work out the rest by process of elimination...I'd be really really grateful 

Thanks,

Ian.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Hmm, I've printed off a big list of the EPAK 24 syllabus, and gone through it highlighting all the techniques that we do in Kempo Ryu - I think there's enough similarity to warrant getting some tapes (we do 62 out of the 96 techniques in Orange to Green, and then less so after that).
> 
> I had a look at Master Tatum's site, and also the BKRU site where they're sold, but neither place lists which 12 techniques are on which volume, and I could really do with knowing (since the ones that I don't do from each belt could fall on one particular volume). I've seen the 24 techniques written in a different order for each belt that's all, in different places (the list on Master Tatum's site seem to have some duplicates and ommissions in as well).
> 
> If someone could be really kind and tell me which techniques are on Orange Vol 1, Purple Vol 1, Blue Vol 1 and Green Vol 1, I can work out the rest by process of elimination...I'd be really really grateful
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian. *



Look at the list in order and the first 12 are on the 1st tape and the 2nd tape contains the last 12.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


----------



## satans.barber

Ah, OK, if Master Tatum's written them i the same order as the tapes then that's fine, it was just with them being in a different order on some other sites, I wasn't sure.

Thanks Clyde,

Ian.


----------



## KenpoIsIt

Hello Mr. Conatser

I have a question for you regarding the hand gesture when signaling a form.  Since I have seen it done either way, can you tell me what Mr. Parker shared with you?  Here is the question.

When signaling your form do you use the right hand to signal with the left hand being the backdrop or vice versa?

Thank You.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by KenpoIsIt _*
> When signaling your form do you use the right hand to signal with the left hand being the backdrop or vice versa?
> Thank You.
> *



Done correctly... you start each form with the left hand (at your left side or waist) as the back hand with the right hand signaling what form it is (short or bent finger/s for short forms and long finger/s for the long forms), [note: the fingers never touch the back hand] then mirrored to the right side, then continued up and out into the warrior/scholar salutation portion and beyond till the finish.

:asian:


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI

So, can Tatum beat the Undertaker, or what????  

 :rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _*
> So, can Tatum beat the Undertaker, or what????   :rofl:
> *



Well, it looks to me so far he has.....


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Well, it looks to me so far he has.....*



 You were a Hogan fan, weren't ya????


----------



## jfarnsworth

I'm not a hogan fan nor have I ever met/talked/seen Mr. Tatum but my money would be on Mr. Tatum laying the smack down on the undertaker.


----------



## Nightingale

personally, my bet would be on tatum.


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI _*
> You were a Hogan fan, weren't ya????
> *



No, the "ULTIMATE WARRIOR" ALL THE WAY......


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *No, the "ULTIMATE WARRIOR" ALL THE WAY......
> *



Get real...........it's the NWO all the way, don't you forget it!


----------



## Goldendragon7

The Aussiemanian Devil!!

(pic coming soon)


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *The Aussiemanian Devil!!
> 
> (pic coming soon)
> 
> *


Now you're in trouble!  The Tessmanian Devil is perturbed that you are giving parts of her name away~!


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Why the offensive move in long 2?

I am refering to the smother punch/sweep kick, uppercut/forarm strike, eye pokes.
 Other then the obvious fact that it is offensive and that is the opposit of defensive/counters.:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Mr. Conatser may be in Austrailia still.  Lucky dog, it is mid-winter Down Under right now.  You may have to wait for your answer from him a bit.

It is an offensive move, but can also be considered a counter in that the Thrusting Sweep kick is a counter against a lead leg kick.  That is not THE ANSWER, it is an answer.  Also of note are that you get previews of things to come in Long #2, just like we do with the hand isolations in Long #1 being put into practice in Long #2.  

Can you think of anywhere in the 3's, 4's, 5,'s, 6 or 7 where we see the same or similar actions?


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Mr Billings,

Thanks for the info.  It is food for thought and I will have to analize the motion a bit deeper and the look for the similarties with the others.:asian: :asian:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Mr. Conatser may be in Austrailia still.  *



I believe Mr. C. will be home on either Mon July 7th or Tues the 8th.
:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *It is an offensive move, but can also be considered a counter in that the Thrusting Sweep kick is a counter against a lead leg kick.  That is not THE ANSWER, it is an answer.  Also of note are that you get previews of things to come in Long #2, just like we do with the hand isolations in Long #1 being put into practice in Long #2.
> 
> Can you think of anywhere in the 3's, 4's, 5,'s, 6 or 7 where we see the same or similar actions? *



The thrusting sweep kick as an offensive move?

Long 3 - Scraping Hoof 
Long 4 - at the end after Twirling Hammers
Long 5 - at the end after Leaping Crane opp. to the close after T.H.
Long 6 - During Entwined Lance
Long 7 - I don't know that one. 

Is this what you were looking for??? 'cause I'm at work and inbetween customers.


----------



## Michael Billings

Exactly right Jason.  If you think about "catagory completion", which I definitly do not, you can go even further.


----------



## Michael Billings

Golden One,  (copied from Kick thread)

On it's own thread is the question of "where the kick (promotion ceremony) came from.  I know what it means from my instructors, Mr. Parker, and what I share with my students ... but I plead ignorance (a common plea for me) when it comes to it's origin.  I know there are always "Rights of passage" whether you are a Shaolin monk and into branding, or whether a Marine and getting "pinned".  

This right of passage is a big one for my students and myself.  It is integral to the promotion ceremony and symbolic in nature ... as my feet leave the ground and I am caught.  Where did this specific one come from, and when did Mr. Parker make it part of his promotions?

Thanks, -MB


----------



## cdhall

This thread has been dormant too long.
Was the previous question about the kick answered?

Mr. C, did you post anything elsewhere about your tour of Australia?

Vive la QnA Thread!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Orig. posted by Michael Billings _*
> "Where did this specific kick (ceremony) promotion come from, and when did Mr. Parker make it part of his promotions?
> *



Everyone I've asked just said that it has always been there.......... so.....

:asian:


----------



## Chronuss

have you ever done a self-defense technique demo, and if so, what was the sequence and with how many partners?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _*
> Have you ever done a self-defense technique demo, and if so, what was the sequence and with how many partners? *



LOL,  I make them up as I go.....  or take a group of techniques and do them..... or do short 3 against opponents..... hell there are hundreds of combinations with any number of opponents.

:rofl:


----------



## Chronuss

..wasn't precisely the answer I was goin' for.  :shrug:


----------



## Chronuss

...wouldn't care to ellaborate, would you GD?


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _*
> ..wasn't precisely the answer I was goin' for.  :shrug:
> *



What kind of "Self Defense demo" might you be talking about then.... where ..... for what purpose... give me some more details....


----------



## KenpoTess

Methinks he's wondering about mayhaps Mass Attack type demos.


----------



## Chronuss

> Originally posted by Goldendragon7
> *What kind of "Self Defense demo" might you be talking about then.... where ..... for what purpose... give me some more details....
> 
> *



quite honestly, for the hell of it.  I like the precision and the timing that goes into them, and it looks badass when the uki's respond accordingly and techs. flow into one another.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> *quite honestly, for the hell of it.  I like the precision and the timing that goes into them, and it looks badass when the uki's respond accordingly and techs. flow into one another. *



Then why not just go smack someone around then?  

Some of the Demo.'s I've been involved with we have used a specific form and whilist the person is doing the empty hand form another group of people were doing the tech's on someone.  As far as material pick tech's out of the web of knowledge and show the complexity as they get more in depth on the degree of difficulty. Show some sets to give the audience an understanding of what we do and why. Perform some sets with a partner using the "mirror image" or "opposite side" along with coordination drills while demonstrating.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Then why not just go smack someone around then?
> 
> Some of the Demo.'s I've been involved with we have used a specific form and whilist the person is doing the empty hand form another group of people were doing the tech's on someone.  As far as material pick tech's out of the web of knowledge and show the complexity as they get more in depth on the degree of difficulty. Show some sets to give the audience an understanding of what we do and why. Perform some sets with a partner using the "mirror image" or "opposite side" along with coordination drills while demonstrating. *



And what in the sam hill were you doing while everyone else was showing off?


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *And what in the sam hill were you doing while everyone else was showing off? *



I was performing form 6.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I was performing form 6.  *



I'll bet it was wrong.........................:rofl:


----------



## Seig

When I used to help coreograph these "demos" for tournament competition, I told the team leader to pick a theme.  Once a theme was decided upon, a flow could be conceived.  From there, the sky's the limit.  Of course, Mr. C probably has a much more logical, scientific approach.  I'm ready to learn something new, do tell, sir.


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I'll bet it was wrong.........................:rofl: *



I guess it could be but I've studied Mr. Planas' video's on form 6 many times over and took 3 pages worth of notes. Other than my immediate instructor no one else has looked over it as I've performed it.


----------



## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I guess it could be but I've studied Mr. Planas' video's on form 6 many times over and took 3 pages worth of notes. Other than my immediate instructor no one else has looked over it as I've performed it. *



Don't frown at me Mister! You're wrong, now go back and practice!


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *
> When I used to help coreograph these "demos" for tournament competition, I told the team leader to pick a theme.  Once a theme was decided upon, a flow could be conceived.  From there, the sky's the limit.  Of course, Mr. C probably has a much more logical, scientific approach.  I'm ready to learn something new, do tell, sir. *



Depending on where you are doing the demo and what the audience is .... will depend on what you develop.  Some "demos" are for competition, some for information (advertisement for studio), some historical, yet others entertaining.

If it is for a tournament..... then there are numerous possibilities with much technical info and angling toward the judges.

If it is for a public demonstration in front of a grocery store or movie theater (we did several demos at theaters on stage for the opening of Enter the Dragon ..... many moons ago) then other designs may be formulated.

The sky is the limit and it can be a lot of work and fun to develop them.

If we have time, next time I'm out remind me and we will whip up one in class for fun, and go over a few different examples.


:asian:


----------



## Chronuss

woo hoo!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Any new Questions?

 :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Any new Questions?
> 
> :asian:


 wow, I better start asking some.......lol


----------



## Rob Broad

This thread has been around for a long time.  I am glad to see so many people have gotten some good use of it.


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> A underhand heelpalm is a heel palm thrown as it rises from a low region upwards ..... and hits strictly with the palm heel
> 
> A upward Claw is a maneuver similar to the upward heelpalm but also uses the fingers in a "clawing"  fashion.


 and is "usually" executed behind the radial line reference of the shoulders in an upward stiff-arm manner.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> and is "usually" executed behind the radial line reference of the shoulders in an upward stiff-arm manner.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> This thread has been around for a long time.  I am glad to see so many people have gotten some good use of it.


 I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL

 :idunno:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL
> 
> :idunno:


What's your sign, do you come here often?


----------



## jaybacca72

what are your thoughts on escape from the storm and what are some of the variations you have seen? what was the purpose behind the ending?
later
jay


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> What's your sign? do you come here often?


  LOL, hmmmmm ahhhhhhh an intellectual I presume......lol  Well my sign is Scorpio, Dragon, and proceed with caution!




			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Do you come here often?


  Only once in a while unless awakened.


----------



## cdhall

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> I think everyone ran out of questions......LOL
> 
> :idunno:


OK, I can think of at least on more question. But please politely refer me to a link of this has been gone over before.
:idunno: 

Why do so many of the weapon techniques not follow "Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm?"

Why and for what purpose was this formula developed if not for the high-level weapon techniqes?

For the weapon techniques that do not use this formula, should they be updated by a Kenpoist or his/her instructor to follow the formula?

As one of my favorite essay-exam giving teachers used to always add to every essay question, why or why not?


----------



## Goldendragon7

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> What are your  thoughts on escape from the storm.
> 
> What are some of the variations you  have seen?
> 
> What was the purpose behind the ending?
> later  jay


You just _had_ to ask didn't you.......... LOL ok  here goes...
 Escape from the Storm's theme is a variation of "Brushing the  Storm"  but  introduces new strikes (inverted palm heel strikes with twist  stance use as well as using a crossover as a "Bracing Angle" and "Fulcrum" on  the lower limbs).  
This also utilizes "Dropping" to the ground and the  importance to being low as  you "manipulate" the opponent.  Note how tracking is  utilized, and the adjustments and alterations due to depth factors is  needed.


  As to variations, there are or can be an unlimited number  depending upon which point during the technique you deviate from.  You can graft  any number of different scenarios or variable expansions.  I personally like to  insert a "take down" after the heel palm to the groin and lifting the leg, but  that is just one of many possibilities.


  As in all "ideal" phased techniques ..... we establish an  initial "point of reference" for the new student.   As the student matures, the  "what if" factors and experimentation is necessary to explore since the ideal  phase is only "one" possibility that may occur and the advanced student must  realize that many factors can/will come into play in a real confrontation, thus  the need to be able to apply extemporaneously the equation formula, and thus   formulate from your repertoire of knowledge to be successful.  


  "_One_" example or purpose would be.... after you  grabbed the leg and kicked to the groin, you may have slipped a bit and fell  forward thus forcing you to go down rather than to remain a "stand up", so you  drop into a "twist" and continue in some fashion such as described.  This is  only one possibility and many, many others can be formulated as well.


  :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

cdhall said:
			
		

> In our weapons training we utilize the following formula,  "*Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm*.   Why and for what purpose was this  formula developed?


One of the unique qualities of Ed Parker's  American Kenpo System is the attention and LOGIC dedicated to either principles,  concepts or theories.  

To thoroughly understand and thus teach this  system you need tools to work with.  This is just one example of an important  tool.




			
				cdhall said:
			
		

> Why do many of the weapon techniques not  follow "*Divert, Seize, Control, Disarm*?"


We must  realize that there are many factors that go into the understanding of our  "system".  One of these factors is that there are always exceptions or "options"  (for the advanced students not necessarily taught to the beginners) to any rules  that may have been developed.  The Equation Formula also comes into play here,  i. e., one may start with _Divert_, then move directly to _Disarm_ and  eliminate "Seize and Control, or opt for another rearrangement due to specific  circumstances due to several considerations... (environment, range etc.). 




			
				cdhall said:
			
		

> For the weapon techniques that do not  use this formula, should they be updated by a Kenpoist or his/her instructor to  follow the formula?


Well, first off....  _*ALL"DO"*_ use the formula, just not always in the exact order  you mentioned.  I don't know if "updated" is the correct word I would use.  I  would rather say "understand" more of the depth of the formula and it's  variables and why.




			
				cdhall said:
			
		

> As one of my favorite essay-exam  giving teachers used to always add to every essay question, why or why  not?


Now you should have more ammo...... so tell me why or  why not.

:asian:


----------



## pete

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> "_One_" example or purpose would be.... after you grabbed the leg and kicked to the groin, you may have slipped a bit and fell forward thus forcing you to go down rather than to remain a "stand up", so you drop into a "twist" and continue in some fashion such as described.  This is only one possibility and many, many others can be formulated as well.


 makes sense~ what has me puzzled is after all that, doing the in-place switch and going back in... i'm sure there is good reason, i just don't see it. 

pete


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> makes sense~ what has me puzzled is after all that, doing the in-place switch and going back in... i'm sure there is good reason, i just don't see it.
> 
> pete


Neither do I, however - Mr. Parker always told me that you should never view THOSE (his emphasis) techniques as complete entities. Sometimes you remove certain ideas from the technique and study them independent of the rest of the "moves."

From that perspective, the "in-place switch and going back in ..." may make more sense. Just maybe you are not going back in but initiating from a singular circumstance that finds an attacker vulnerable to such an action based on environmental as well as other factors. Just a thought Pete.


----------



## ikenpo

Could we ever envision a "Gathering of the Eagles" type thing for EPAK specifically? All the members of the Journey, all those that should have been in there (Kelly, Palanzo, Doc, etc...), and others that are making an impact at this time (Whitson, etc..)? Or are there too many "organizational gatherings" and "seminar formats" already to prevent this reality from happening? Could such an event lead to improvements in the system as a whole? Or should there be another design format to encourage should dialogue?

jb


----------



## Doc

jbkenpo said:
			
		

> Could we ever envision a "Gathering of the Eagles" type thing for EPAK specifically? All the members of the Journey, all those that should have been in there (Kelly, Palanzo, Doc, etc...), and others that are making an impact at this time (Whitson, etc..)? Or are there too many "organizational gatherings" and "seminar formats" already to prevent this reality from happening? Could such an event lead to improvements in the system as a whole? Or should there be another design format to encourage should dialogue?
> 
> jb


Actually JB we came very close to that in the "Homecoming" event hosted by Ed Parker last year at the original (kinda) school in Pasadena California. Most gave seminars over two days, and we had a dinner at Won Kok, (one of Mr. Parker's favorite late night eat/meet spots).

Off the top of my head there was myself, Ed Parker, Dave Hebler, Chuck Sullivan, Lincoln Conti, Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Richard Planas, Albert Conejo, Bob Liles, John Sepulveda, Frank Trejo, Dennis Connatser, Diane Tanaka, Doreen Cogliandro, Zach Whitson, and others including Mrs. Ed Parker (Sr.), Sherry Parker, Yvonne Parker, etc.

At one point we all gathered to share stories and anecdotes of Ed Parker Sr. while those that didn't know him asked questions. Perhaps with a bit of proding and promises of participation - it could be done again.


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Doc,

I just do not understand why all of the seniors are not leading by example and coming together to brain storm/shar ideas to help with the progression of Parker Kenpo.  Isn't this what Mr Parker wanted?

I like the idea that we at least have this forum to ask questions but why don't you guys lead the way and cut through all the b.s.?

I hope you do not take offense to this but someone needs to ask?


----------



## Goldendragon7

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I just do not understand why all of the seniors are not  leading by example and _coming together_ to brain storm/share ideas to help  with the progression of Parker Kenpo.


  Actually, there have  been several attempts to "gather together", and many _*ARE*_  leading by example through their own individual efforts.

 Unfortunately, it is difficult to get a great number of these individuals to agree on specifics. Many are what I term... "era-lized", which means that they learned material from Mr. Parker during the "era" that they were with him and many went in different directions over time but didn't keep current on his constant and "evolving material", so they are well entrenched in their personal comfort zones with the way that they learned the material during their "era" and do not want to adjust anything or move out of it, (of course this is only one observation and opinion {mine} there are most probably a few other reasons also), but none the less each person is {at least in their minds PROGRESSING} the system as they see it.

  I do share your thoughts on the possibilities  of a more "Unified Kenpo Front" and would welcome any possibilities.




			
				Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Isn't this what Mr. Parker  wanted?


 As to the desires of Mr. Parker on the "progression of Parker Kenpo" as you stated, from my observations, as varied as the system seems.... the Art is doing well and will continue to do so. There are many fine Seniors currently teaching (whatever they are teaching) and there is a fine crop of *younger generation *instructors out there that are coming up doing a great job as well, so I don't really see any problems here. There are many new and bright stars on the horizon. 

  I think Mr. Parker has a taught a  great many how to think, use _*LOGIC*_ to determine true  answers and many of us will _*NEVER let his SYSTEM  PERISH*_!




			
				Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I like the idea that we at least have this forum to ask questions but why don't you guys lead the way and cut through all the b.s.?


 Yes, we have this and other forums (I think this one is the best IMHO) in which several talented Seniors, instructors, black belts and under belts ask and answer questions for all that venture in (and there are a variety of differing opinions also... LOL). 
  You  however will have to cut through whatever   :bs:  there may be.:ultracool




			
				Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I hope you do not take  offense to this but someone needs to ask?


 *NO*  offense taken from me..., thanks for asking.  {I hope you feel better now}:uhyeah:

  :asian:


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Doc,

I believe that I am fortunate to be under one of the seniors that has the same perspective as you (Lee Wedlake Jr).  Mr Wedlake has been a constant sorce of motivation and has reminded me to think and think often.  Study, analyze and explore all possibilities.  I know that I am just a 1st BB and my learning has just begun. Man is that scary.

Do you have anyone in the Atlanta area?  I would be interested in understanding sl4.

Thanks and please advise


----------



## Doc

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> I believe that I am fortunate to be under one of the seniors that has the same perspective as you (Lee Wedlake Jr).  Mr Wedlake has been a constant sorce of motivation and has reminded me to think and think often.  Study, analyze and explore all possibilities.  I know that I am just a 1st BB and my learning has just begun. Man is that scary.
> 
> Do you have anyone in the Atlanta area?  I would be interested in understanding sl4.
> 
> Thanks and please advise



Well that's the problem with not being commercial. I will not allow anyone to teach SL-4 who is not credentialed to do so, and there is no such thing as competent "distance learning." My credentialed teachers won't leave because they're afraid they may miss something. Therefore proliferation is a slow process. If you're under Lee Wedlake, you're with a good man. If you ever get to Southern Cal, give me a shout and I'll spend some time with you to give you an idea of its depth and have a bite.


----------



## Michael Billings

> _*Goldendragon7 Orig. Posted:
> *_
> Actually, there have  been several attempts to "gather together", and many _*ARE*_  leading by example through their own individual efforts.
> 
> Unfortunately, it is difficult to get a great number of these individuals to agree on specifics. Many are what I term... "era-lized", which means that they learned material from Mr. Parker during the "era" that they were with him and many went in different directions over time but didn't keep current on his constant and "evolving material", so they are well entrenched in their personal comfort zones with the way that they learned the material during their "era" and do not want to adjust anything or move out of it, (of course this is only one observation and opinion {mine} there are most probably a few other reasons also), but none the less each person is {at least in their minds PROGRESSING} the system as they see it.
> 
> I do share your thoughts on the possibilities  of a more "Unified Kenpo Front" and would welcome any possibilities.


 Thanks for the insight.  I concur and we can always hope for the best, but I do not think it is in every individual's best interest to unify.  It may or may not be the best thing for Kenpo, but many of the Senior's livlihood is tied up in their own Association or student base also.  This is just the fiscal reality.  Not a bad thing, just a thing.  In the meantime we can learn from all ... or not, as we choose.

 Respectfully,
 -Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Thanks for the insight.  In the meantime we can learn from *all ... or ... not*..., as we choose.  Respectfully, -Michael


 You're welcome!  

 Personally speaking ...... It (unification) has _*never*_ been a "barrier" to *ME* or my students, as to what _Association or Organization_ any Kenpo Instructor {that I choose to associate or train with} heads or belongs to.   

 I find all these individuals very open, friendly, respectful and willing to share or train their personal Kenpo Talents when asked.  Steve LaBounty, Tom Kelly, Huk Planas, Bob White, John Sepulveda, Frank Trejo, Ron Chape'l, Paul Mills, Skip Hancock, Bob Liles or Dian Tanaka, just to highlight a few of the _*Kream of Kenpo*_ are all excellent instructors at what they do, and well worth time on the floor with.

 As to others that are not so gracious or have agendas.... well, ... I just  don't spend a lot of time with. 

 :asian:


----------



## Dominic Jones

Hi GD

I was looking through the freestyle techniques and got stumped on this one.  Can you crack this code for me?

BPTDH  Using the codes I know:

B is the base move
P is a punch
T,D or TD is unknown?? :idunno: 
H is a palm heel



Also could you check my understanding of the following codes:
dK is a drag kick (this is lead leg front kick with the rear leg dragging up to the front leg, before the kick, to close distance) For example B1aPdK  

s is a snap kick (this is a front kick with a snapping method of execution) For example B3asKrKsrK

rs is a reverse snap kick (this a back kick with a snapping method of execution)  For example B6arsK6hK

Thank you for you time.

Cheers Dom :asian: 
Sendai Kenpo


----------



## Goldendragon7

Dominic Jones said:
			
		

> Hi GD,  I was looking through the freestyle techniques and got stumped on this one.  Can you crack this code for me?
> 
> BPTDH  Using the codes I know:
> 
> B is the base move
> P is a punch
> T,D or TD is unknown?? :idunno:
> H is a palm heel
> Cheers Dom :asian:
> Sendai Kenpo


 Hee hee....... you had to dig around pretty deep to find those old codes.  

 TD = Take Down     The rest you have correct.




			
				Dominic Jones said:
			
		

> Also could you check my understanding of the following codes:
> dK is a drag kick (this is lead leg front kick with the rear leg dragging up to the front leg, before the kick, to close distance) For example B1aPdK
> Cheers Dom :asian:
> Sendai Kenpo


 Yes,  dK = drag kick....... drag the rear leg up and kick with the front




			
				Dominic Jones said:
			
		

> s is a snap kick (this is a front kick with a snapping method of execution) For example: B3asKrKsrK
> Cheers Dom :asian:
> Sendai Kenpo


 
 Actually, this series {B3asKrKsrK} is # 27 of the Blue Belt [RL] .... 
 sK  = snap Kick
 rK  = roundhouse Kick
 srK = spinning rear Kick
*B3asKrKsrK* indicates the execution of the first variation of the base    move, while simultaneously executing a left front crossover. Follow up with a right front snap ball kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee. As your opponent's right knee buckles, plant your right gauging leg while delivering a left roundhouse kick to his groin. Plant your left gauging leg as you continue the flow of your action into a right spinning back heel kick to his body. 





			
				Dominic Jones said:
			
		

> rs is a reverse snap kick (this a back kick with a snapping method of execution)  For example B6arsK6hK
> Cheers Dom :asian:
> Sendai Kenpo


 NO .... you are off a bit  here......
 rs = reverse snap kick .... (many call this an inverted front kick - front kick turned heel/instep upward)  this is used when you are in the RL alignment.  

*B6arsK6hK* indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body. 

  :asian:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Hee hee....... you had to dig around pretty deep to find those old codes.
> 
> TD = Take Down     The rest you have correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes,  dK = drag kick....... drag the rear leg up and kick with the front
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, this series {B3asKrKsrK} is # 27 of the Blue Belt [RL] ....
> sK  = snap Kick
> rK  = roundhouse Kick
> srK = spinning rear Kick
> *B3asKrKsrK* indicates the execution of the first variation of the base    move, while simultaneously executing a left front crossover. Follow up with a right front snap ball kick to the inside of your opponent's right knee. As your opponent's right knee buckles, plant your right gauging leg while delivering a left roundhouse kick to his groin. Plant your left gauging leg as you continue the flow of your action into a right spinning back heel kick to his body.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NO .... you are off a bit  here......
> rs = reverse snap kick .... (many call this an inverted front kick - front kick turned heel/instep upward)  this is used when you are in the RL alignment.
> 
> *B6arsK6hK* indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body.
> 
> :asian:


 :ultracool


----------



## Dominic Jones

Thanks for the swift and knowledgable response GD.

It was the first time for me to see the code with an attached description.  



> Originally Posted by Goldendragon7
> 
> B6arsK6hK indicates the execution of the first variation of the base move, while simultaneously executing a left rear crossover. Immediately deliver a right reverse snap kick to your opponent's stomach. As your opponent backs up, plant forward and immediately flow into a left rear crossover, simultaneous with a right thrusting back heel kick to his body.



Very cool.  Do you have all of the freestyle techniques written out?

Cheers Dom
Sendai Kenpo :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Dominic Jones said:
			
		

> Thanks for the swift and knowledgable response GD.
> It was the first time for me to see the code with an attached description.
> Very cool.  Do you have all of the freestyle techniques written out?
> Cheers Dom Sendai Kenpo :asian:


 You are certainly welcome, and yes I have _everything_ written out.

 :supcool:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Too much like algebra. I hated algebra.  I much prefer "when da guy go li' diss, you go li' dat".

Dave


----------



## Goldendragon7

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Too much like algebra. I hated algebra.  I much prefer "when da guy go li' diss, you go li' dat".  Dave


 LOL :uhyeah:  Yeah, in the beginning I thought the same, but after I  worked with the codes for a while they are really useful teaching  tools...
 annnnnnnnnnd..  
 they can serve as a _*secret*_ _2nd  language_ at some tournaments....... %-} where the competitors don't know what you are saying..... LOL

 rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK:idunno:


----------



## KenpoTess

rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK

Now if we can only get Mr. C. to say these outloud.. not in his 'underbreath' tones


----------



## Goldendragon7

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> rKtsKB5aPbkhKsrKbkB1b/aHTDPrK
> 
> Now if we can only get Mr. C. to say these outloud.. not in his 'underbreath' tones


 rkmnmmnmnskbmmmammlb5manamnmnatsmnmnnmnnm....... hee hee

 but *you* know *why* I do this.........


----------



## KenpoTess

*Grins*  Yes I Know why you do this..


----------



## Goldendragon7

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> *Grins*  Yes I Know why you do this..


 Hee hee... You better:ultracool


----------



## michaeledward

Concerning the technique 'Deceptive Panther', I have a question about how quick the technique starts. We were discussing it last night at our studio, and those senior to me don't like the way I am running it. 

Here is the basic movement as I understand it ... not the entire technique, just to the point of my question.


Fighting positions .. Attacker in left neutral bow, defender in right neutral bow.
Attack ... Right front kick to right roundhouse kick.
Defense ... Universal block while stepping back slightly with rear leg. Then shuffle in and perform a right side kick to the attackers' left leg.
I think my question is about a) the effectiveness of the Universal block and b) the timing of the shuffle?

a) Should this Universal Block act as a 'strike' on the front kick? (knocking the attacker off balance and interrupting the second kick)

b) I think the shuffle & side-kick should take place in the beat between the front kick and the roundhouse kick. This would move me inside the attackers' range before he can fire off that roundhouse. My instructors are telling me I am moving in too quickly, because I am not blocking the first kick.

The rest of the technique is not posing any challenges, (at this time) ... just the timing on the first move and a half. I would appreciate any thoughts?


----------



## Goldendragon7

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Concerning the  technique '*Deceptive Panther*', I have a question about how _*quick  *_the technique starts.


Greetings.....  
OK, well first off..... let's make sure we are on the  same page with the same  description of said technique before we try to dissect  it and examine it's components to find the challenge.    Here is how we do this specific technique....... (with some additional notes for you):uhyeah:

*DECEPTIVE PANTHER *(Combination Right Front Snap Kick (Low) & Right Roundhouse Kick  (High)


  1.  While in a right neutral bow, quickly shift  your left foot (up the circle) toward 4:30 into a right 45 degree cat stance facing  10:30.  Simultaneously  deliver a left downward block to the inside of your opponent's right low kick  and *position* (to cover high for any attack here - foot or hand) a  right inward block for (what will turn out to be) his right high kick, this will  resemble/become a _universal block_.

  2.  From your right 45 degree cat stance (facing  10:30), deliver a right snapping  knife-edge kick to your opponent's left inner knee. (Your opponent should buckle  out as well as bend forward.)

  3.  Plant your right foot forward into a right  transitional neutral bow (facing 10:30). As you plant deliver a right downward back  knuckle strike to your opponent's right mastoid. Without loss of motion pivot  clockwise into a right front rotating twist stance as you deliver a left  downward hammerfist to the right side of your opponent's neck. 

  4.  Using the power of a fully *accelerated  move*, pivot counterclockwise out of your twist stance as you deliver a right  stiff-arm lifting back knuckle strike to your opponent's face. During your back  knuckle strike have your left hand check at your opponent's right shoulder. As  you continue the *accelerated move*, deliver a right back kick to his  groin. This kick employs the *grafting *of thrusting and lifting methods of  execution.

  5.  From the Point of Contact of your kick,  execute a right front crossover, and cover out twice toward 4:30. 

*NOTES ON DECEPTIVE PANTHER*

*1.  NAME: *The name of this technique  originates from the nature of your opponent's attack. Your opponent is first  trying to deceive you with a low kick, before following up with a higher kick.  This *deceptive *gesture resembles the feinting moves of a *panther*,  thus the name *Deceptive Panther*.

*2.  THEME: *(1)This technique is  *Family Related *with Swinging Pendulum and Detour From Doom, thus it has a  similar theme. This technique teaches you the merits of *moving up the circle  *to get you out of the line of attack, as well as how you can extend the  range of a your right Knife-Edge kick. The timing of the foot maneuver and the  kick is crucial in maximizing your power. Timed with precision, body momentum  becomes the chief contributor to the sum total of your force, which helps  destroy his foundation. The first action triggers the second action (your right  knife-edge kick to his knee), as if they were consolidated as one. Although  precise timing gives you the illusion of consolidation, the two moves are,  nonetheless, separate. The *shifting of your feet*, and *gravitational  marriage* are repeated principles that help enhance the use of *body  momentum*.

  (2) Deceptive Panther also introduces the use of a  *Fully Accelerated Move*, whereby you gain power by *dropping *into  your rotating twist stance, and gain power on the *lift *when twisting out.  This in-place stance change uses forward and reverse motion achieving nearly 360  degree torque that contributes greatly to the force of the kick. 

  (3) Furthermore, some of the benefits of a rotating twist  stance are revealed: checking, locking, buckling, breaking, and complete  rotation for power.



  (4) The final kick of this technique is your introduction to  *Grafted Kicks* where you employ a scoop, thrust, and lift.



*3.  THE ATTACK: *In the IDEAL PHASE of  this technique your opponent is to the front in a left fighting stance. He then  executes a double kick; first a low front kick toward your groin, and secondly a  high roundhouse kick toward your head. Other WHAT IF factors are:



  a. Your opponent is able to front crossover before you  counter.
b. He kicks high, then low.
c. He precedes his right kicks with a  left kick.
d. Their is a wall to your immediate right that restricts your  movements.



  4.  Determine the relationship between Deceptive  Panther, Detour From Doom, and Swinging Pendulum.

   5.  Review Kick Set #2 for what it  teaches and apply that knowledge to this technique.

  6.  This technique is a good example  of the benefits of *perceptual, mental, *and *physical speed*. Add  this technique to your freestyle movements.

_*NOW*__*....... *_ Let's get  to your specific questions....




			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> Here is the basic movement as I understand it ... not the  entire technique, just to the point of my question.
> 
> *** Fighting positions .. Attacker in left  neutral bow, defender in right neutral bow.


 All we know for  sure (at this point) is that WE are in a right neutral bow.  The opponent could  actually be in either (wouldn't  matter).




			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> Opponents Attack ... Right front  kick to right roundhouse  kick.


 Agreed



			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> Defense ...  Universal block while stepping back slightly with rear leg. Then shuffle in and  perform a right side kick to the attackers' left leg.I think my question is  about a) the effectiveness of the Universal block and b) the timing of the  shuffle?


 ok, a bit of detailed examination is needed  here..... first off ..... we don't know that he is going to deliver a front kick  _*then*_ roundhouse kick so we treat this as a front kick  attack with a _check_ {universal block} (_this check may or may  not become active_) .....   

 We don't deliver the 'Universal  Block' by stepping back, rather _*UP*_ towards 4:30 (off  angling) with the rear or left leg and settle into a 45 degree cat.  There is no  need to "Shuffle" to deliver the right _snapping_ knife-edge kick to your  opponent's left inner knee due to the proper *adjustment* (which closes  distance and increases access) of the left foot.

 Keep in mind our 1st  action is to get out of the centerline of his initial attack (front kick), we do  this by shifting our left foot (up the circle) toward 4:30, as we raise our right foot up onto the ball of the  foot into a right 45 degree cat stance facing 10:30, simultaneously delivering a left downward  block to the inside of your opponent's right low kick and at the same time  *position* (to cover high for _*ANY*_ attack here -  foot or hand) with the right hand a right inward block/check  [Important  NOTE: this will be defined as a block if contact is made .... if not it will  simply be a positional check] for (what will turn out to be) his right high  kick, this will resemble/become a _universal block_ in either instance.  

 The Universal Block is *very* effective here, it allows for  _complete_ coverage for actual or perceived protection, whether or not it  utilizes both left and right arms or just  one.



			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> a) Should this Universal Block act as a  'strike' on the front kick (knocking the attacker off balance and interrupting  the second kick) or just a 'block'?


 Either.  It can act only  as a block or if you have the skill for _sophisticated_ delivery of  motion,....... then you can have a "striking block".:ultracool




			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> b) I think the shuffle &  side-kick should take place in the beat between the front kick and the  roundhouse kick. This would move me inside the attackers' range before he can  fire off that roundhouse. My instructors are telling me I am moving in too  quickly, because I am not blocking the first kick.


 With the  way that we have described the technique above... this would not be applicable,  but it would be a great what if, .... if the opponent reacted away from you on  the first block and you needed to adjust closer due to his increased distance  after the front kick... you would be forced to make some sort of adjustments,  which may include a shuffle in this  instance.



			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> The rest of the technique is not  posing any challenges, (at this time) ... just the timing on the first move and  a half. I would appreciate any thoughts?


 
I hope this helps  shed some light for you.  Great question btw!


:asian:


----------



## michaeledward

Mr. Conaster, Thank you very much for a complete and thorough reply. I appreciate the difficulty in clearly explaining three dimensional body movements in a linquistic format. I imagine it is a bit time consuming to be appropriately descriptive.

My question dealt specifically with the first two steps of your technique write-up. 
From your explanation, I can see that what I was trying to say is correct; I want to kick out his left leg sooner than expected.
From your explanation, I can see that what they are saying is also correct; you got to block that front kick (I was trying to avoid it by moving off the center line).

The biggest difference is where my back foot is moving. I can see how the first move to a cat stance will make this technique more effective and quicker than the way I was performing the move; step off center ... shuffle ... kick.

Thank you again.

Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Thank you very much for a complete and thorough reply.
> Michael


 My pleasure to offer expertise to a fellow Kenpoist!

 :asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Goldendragon7,

 Dang ... I tried to give you Rep points for the great explanation, but I guess I had given you some recently so I couldn't do it.  

 Public KUDOS instead.  

 Oss,
 -Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Goldendragon7,
> Dang ... I tried to give you Rep points for the great explanation, but I guess I had given you some recently so I couldn't do it.
> Public KUDOS instead.    Oss, -Michael


 Well, Thank you very much... You are too kind.

 Gd7


----------



## Goldendragon7

carmstrong said:
			
		

> Mr. Conatser, I was wondering if you would post the complete list of the 10 techniques  and their related techniques on MartialTalk.
> Thanks, Chris


 Ok ok....... geeze..... here ya go....... 

*THUNDERING HAMMERS* + 32 "variations of"
*FIVE SWORDS* + 46
*LONE KIMONO* +  9
*INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE* + 4
*SHIELDING HAMMER* + 20
*REPEATING MACE* + 8
*LOCKED WING* +  1
*THRUSTING SALUTE* + 2
*PARTING WINGS* +  24
*HOOKING WINGS* + 4

*MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES *

*MASTER KEY MOVEMENT(S) *are defined as being a move or series of moves that can be used in more than one predicament with equal effect. For example a rear heel kick, shin scrape, and instep stomp can be used for a *FULL NELSON*, *BEAR HUG* with the arms free or pinned, *REAR ARM LOCK*, etc. Or, an arm break can be applied to a *cross wrist grab*, a *lapel grab*, or *hair grab* -&#8209; application of the arm break would remain constant, but the methods of controlling the wrist would vary. In comparison, *MASTER KEY TECHNIQUES *entail sequential arrangements of movements that can be applied to a number of predicaments. In the case of a *MASTER KEY TECHNIQUE* it is a single technique that may be used as a BASE MOVE. Other similar techniques may then be perceived as formulations of it. In many ways they are like *Family Groupings* and *Associated Moves*; they are the result of an individual's further association of movements; they are the next logical step in the search for spontaneity. Remember, the following are only one set of model groupings. The art of Master Key Techniques is to eventually be able to use any and all techniques as a BASE MOVE and to see how all other techniques are formulations of it. This should lead you to the next level of spontaneity. 


_*  THUNDERING HAMMERS  32*_ 
 Sleeper
   Dance of Death
   Grasping Eagles
   Unwinding Pendulum
   Dance of Darkness ***
   Attacking Mace
   Flashing Wings
   Darting Mace
   Crossing Talons
   Desperate Falcons
   Circling Fans ***
   Leaping Crane
   Gathering Clouds
   Circling the Horizon
   Piercing Lance
   Taming the Mace
   Shield and Mace &#8209; Advanced
   Back Breaker
   Kneel of Compulsion
   Brushing the Storm
   Escape from the Storm
   Flashing Mace
   Glancing Salute
   Clipping the Storm
   Glancing Lance
   Ram and the Eagle
   Returning Storm
   Grasp of Death
   Gift of Destruction
   Gift in Return
   Gift of Destiny
   Broken Gift

_*FIVE SWORDS*_*  46*
   Delayed Sword
   Fatal Deviation ***
   Alternating Mace
   Snaking Talons ***
   Aggressive Twins
   Entwined Maces ***
   Defying the Storm
   Mace of Aggression
   Snapping Twigs
   The Bear and the Ram
   Tripping Arrow
   Falling Falcon
   Conquering Shield
   Cross of Death
   Bowing to Buddha
   Raining Claw
   Glancing Wing
   Prance of the Tiger
   Circling Fans ***
   Deflecting Hammer
   Hugging Pendulum
   Retreating Pendulum
   Dance of Darkness ***
   Unwinding Pendulum
   Menacing Twirl
   Reversing Circles ***
   Swinging Pendulum
   Detour From Doom
   Deceptive Panther
   Charging Ram
   Broken Ram
   Intercepting the Ram
   Spreading Branch
   Reprimanding the Bears
   Captured Twigs
   Crushing Hammer
   Obscure Wing
   Calming the Storm
   Securing the Storm
   Triggered Salute
   Twisted Twig
   Bow of Compulsion
   Reversing Mace
   Circling Destruction
   Gripping Talon
   Twisted Rod   

*LONE KIMONO:**  9 * 
  Twin  Kimono
    Clutching Feathers
    Locking Horns
    Captured Leaves
    Entangled  Wing
    Snapping Twig
    Raking Mace
    Obscure Sword
    Falcons of Force

_*INTELLECTUAL DEPARTURE:   4
*_Circle of Doom
   Rotating Destruction
   Unfolding The Dark
   Encounter With Danger

_*SHIELDING HAMMER:   20*_
                                    Sword of Destruction
   Evading The Storm
   Protecting Fans
   Shield and Mace
   Leap From Danger
   Dominating Circles
   Circles of Protection
   Raining Lance
   Circling Windmills
   Unfurling Crane
   Reversing Circles
   Leap of Death
   Destructive Kneel
   Destructive Fans
   Glancing Spear
   Desperate Falcons
   Broken Rod
   Fatal Deviation ***
    Entwined Maces ***
    Snaking Talons ***


*REPEATING MACE:   8*
   Shield and Sword
   Twirling Hammers
   Checking The Storm
   Twirling Wings
   Entwined Lance
   Parting of the Snakes
   Capturing the Rod
   Defying the Rod 

*LOCKED WING:    1*
   Flight to Freedom 

*THRUSTING SALUTE:    2*
   Buckling Branch
   Striking Serpent's Head 

*PARTING WINGS:   24* 
  Thrusting Prongs
   Begging Hands
   Thrusting Wedge
   Blinding Sacrifice
   Twist of Fate
   Crashing Wings
   Spiraling Twigs
   Squatting Sacrifice
   Scraping Hoof
   Repeated Devastation
   Cross of Destruction
   Fallen Cross
   Heavenly Ascent
   Squeezing the Peach
   Crossed Twigs
   Circling Wing
   Wings of Silk
   Obstructing the Storm
   Capturing the Storm
   Calming the Storm
   Securing the Storm
   Snakes of Wisdom
   Grip of Death
   Escape From Death   

 [font=&quot]   [/font]  *HOOKING WINGS:    4* 
  Fatal Cross
   Twirling Sacrifice
   Defensive Cross
   Marriage of the Rams

 have fun.......
 %-}


----------



## carmstrong

OMG,

 Thanks Mr. Conatser. That was exceedingly generous of you. You are a gentleman (warrior) and a scholar...<full salute> Wow, we all have a lot to ponder now.

   BTW, what do the three asterisks by some of the techniques mean? 

   Thanks a million!!! 

   You da man, 

   Chris


----------



## Jagdish

Sir:

Can't believe you have the patience and energy to type all this info! :bow: 

Yours,

Jagdish :supcool:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Sir:  Can't believe you have the patience and energy to type all this info!
> Yours,  Jagdish :supcool:


  Just the tip of the iceburg my friend.  Keep in mind that the "list" is an interesting start *but* the proper execution and understanding of just _what_ each move contains and the reason _why_ it is inserted in system is much more important.

  :asian:

www.ikko.com


----------



## jfarnsworth

A very gracious gift to say the least. :asian:


----------



## NTDeveloper

Sir,

 First, let me thank you for taking all these questions.

 Now, my question is the following: Is there a special name or category for techniques/combinations that involve simultaneous strikes? For example, Grasping Eagles includes a "triple": a left inward block, a front snap kick and a hammerfist.

 Could you list a few other techniques that contain 3+ simultaneous strikes? 

 Thank You,

 Chris Moore


----------



## Goldendragon7

NTDeveloper said:
			
		

> Sir,
> Is there a special name or category for  techniques/combinations that involve simultaneous strikes? For example, Grasping  Eagles includes a "triple": a left inward block, a front snap kick and a  hammerfist.
> Chris Moore


 No there is no special name or  categorical set up for simultaneous multiple striking.... mainly these involve  the initial movements.  you only have a few possible ways to strike at one time  with 4 limbs and a head.... so the max number would be 4 at once or if you press  to the extreme 5 in very rare circumstances.

 These concentrate on the  basic and norm not the exception (which is good to explore at some point down  the road).

 :asian:


----------



## michaeledward

NTDeveloper said:
			
		

> Could you list a few other techniques that contain 3+ simultaneous strikes?


I am a 'newbie' in Kenpo ... just have a bit more than 4 years study under my belt. However, the first technique that I was obviously conscious of 3 strikes at once was 'Unfurling Crane' 
... right elbow to the jaw 
... left heel palm 
... knee to groin (or scoop kick)​I was pretty proud of me-self when I recognized that. 

Mike


----------



## Goldendragon7

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I am a 'newbie' in Kenpo ... just have a bit more than 4 years study under my belt. However, the first technique that I was obviously conscious of 3 strikes at once was 'Unfurling Crane' ... right elbow to the jaw
> ... left heel palm
> ... knee to groin (or scoop kick)​I was pretty proud of me-self when I recognized that.
> 
> Mike


 Good.....good!

 %-}


----------



## Goldendragon7

I keep seeing many discussing the many... MANY variations of  techniques that are available in AK today.  Some even get into the "who's right"  debates!  Just possibly.... maybe.... we should revisit the *"equation  formula*" which then leads to the *"variable expansions"* that can be  possible.  

Would it be possible that many or all of the "slightly  modified" or similar but _"name_ _changed" _techniques are related and actually all good (of course, assuming  that proper principles are applied) and useful? 

If this be the case,  then looking at some Kenpoists out there that have "started their {so called}  *own* systems" could be scrutinized further as not really starting their  own systems but rather simply having changed the names or sequential orders of  the techniques which actually falls under Mr. Parker's original system  architecture of the _EQUATION FORMULA_ in the first place.

I mean,  for example..... take Sword and Hammer (readers digest version) ...  
_Base Version_
1) step into your opponent, 
2) sword hand  to the throat, 
3) hammerfist to the groin.

Now under the  _*ALTER*_ section of the equation formula, we can: "change the weapon,  the target or both".  So let's say we... insert a backfist to the face, then  sword hand to the throat.  

Would this not be a viable self defense  technique?  

Since we altered the sequence, we could maintain the same  name, or we could possibly change the name to oh let's say...... "Sword of  Devastation" or something else if we so choose!

My point is....  if you  understand what Ed Parker has actually left us with, you will see that:  

1) there are an infinite amount of worthwhile technique options that (if  taught correctly and understood) you have at your fingertips.

2) if you  examine some of those that are teaching American Kenpo yet have announced that  they are the "founder" of their _*NEW*_* System*, you may  just want to ask what is NEW or DIFFERENT in their system vs. what Ed  Parker had already laid out.  To me, warping or expanding upon what has already  been developed is not new.... just being utilized as expected.

Ed Parker  taught us that there are: _"The_ _three stages of  comprehension_" ...... to *"KNOW OF"* something,  then "*KNOW"* something, and finally *"UNDERSTAND" *something.  These  are all three _distinct_ areas of comprehension.  I have met many that  _know of_ a lot about Kenpo, fewer however, really  _know_ Kenpo (as demonstrated by the content of their posts and  actions {physically, mentally or philologically}), and still fewer yet, those  that actually _understand_ the architecture, meanings, and training  of Ed Parker's System or are propagating it properly and completely.

So  keep asking questions and get good answers.  Look to those that can lead you to  where you want to go in a proper, respectful, logical and truthful  way.

Remember, "There ain't no easy way" you have to "chop wood and carry  water"!

:asian:


----------



## michaeledward

Right now, I think I am in the 'Know Of' ... or at least in the process of 'Knowing Of' ... this stuff called American Kenpo.

Perhaps someday soon, I will 'Know' American Kenpo. 

And with a bit of diligence, I may get to the point of Understanding. Time will tell on that, I guess.


Somewhere on this board, there is a post ... (perhaps by you) ... that says, "if you want to know all there is about Kenpo, ask a green belt ... cuz they know everything" ... I remember reading that when I was a Green belt. It hit home. I must remember, I am still a student ... Still a student ... still a student.

Thanks - michaeledward


----------



## Goldendragon7

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Right now, I think I am in the 'Know Of' ... or at least in the process of 'Knowing Of' ... this stuff called American Kenpo.
> 
> Perhaps someday soon, I will 'Know' American Kenpo.
> 
> And with a bit of diligence, I may get to the point of Understanding. Time will tell on that, I guess.


 Well, the fact is we are and will always be in one of the three stages  forever.. mostly in the first two.  Whenever we finally grasp a good understanding in one area, it usually opens the door for another in which we are back at the "*know of*" stage.   Then we proceed on and study hard to eventually achieve or "*know*" or at least make some sort of progress here before we do the same again in other areas.....  bottom line is...... we will *NEVER* _fully_ achieve the _*"UNDERSTAND"*_ stage for the _complete system_ (we need a few more lifetimes for that) .

 But like I tell my students.. "don't get discouraged..... what else do you have to do for the rest of your life"!  :rofl:




			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> Somewhere on this board, there is a post ... (perhaps by you) ... that says, "if you want to know all there is about Kenpo, ask a green belt ... cuz they know everything" ... I remember reading that when I was a Green belt. It hit home.


 The "tiger" stage for sure!



			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> I must remember, I am still a student ... Still a student ... still a student.
> Thanks - michaeledward


 Well, Michael, we all need to remember those words above !

 Keep in mind .... there are no _masters_ only those with skills above and beyond what we have achieved so far!

 :asian:


----------



## Storm

Hi there

I have a grading coming up soon which requires me to put Form five on the floor.  Thats OK, needs work but have a few months to get it looking better.

At this grading we have to do a Form of choice.  The others before me have done Form four, the other person doing this grading with me is also going to do form four.

I could do form four - its long, technical and what we consider the signature form of kenpo.  Also because of the technical aspect I could possibly get away with a few errors if any were made.

My problem is that I really like Long Three, the movements hard and soft, its crisp feeling etc. The only problem is that being of a lower form I will be marked harder (or different) as they would expect perfection (or close to) and my interpretation, as this form has been done for quite some time.

Would you go with the flow and take some heat off and do Four four or would you take a risk put a bit more pressure on yourself and do a lower form.  Do you think that an Instructor might look upon you as though you are trying to get away with something that might seem easier and frown upon it.

I would appreciate an opinion from an Instructors point of view.

Cheers


----------



## Ceicei

What other martial arts/styles did Mr. Ed Parker Sr. pick up or study prior to (or along with) his creation/standardization of American Kenpo?  

 - Ceicei


----------



## Goldendragon7

Storm said:
			
		

> Hi there
> I have a grading coming up soon which requires me to put Form five on the floor.  At this grading we have to do a Form of choice.
> 
> I could do form four - its long, technical and what we consider the signature form of kenpo.
> 
> My problem is that I really like Long Three, the movements hard and soft, its crisp feeling etc. The only problem is that being of a lower form I will be marked harder (or different) as they would expect perfection (or close to) and my interpretation, as this form has been done for quite some time.
> 
> Would you go with the flow and take some heat off by doing form Four or would you take a risk put a bit more pressure on yourself and do a lower form.
> 
> Do you think that an Instructor might look upon you as though you are trying to get away with something that might seem easier and frown upon it.
> 
> I would appreciate an opinion from an Instructors point of view.  Cheers


I personally would like you to do a form approiate for your rank, but it   depends on what the instructor is looking for.  They may be looking for what form you really enjoy or like or which one you have put a lot more time into.  

Forms 3 and beyond are really different individually and not really to be viewed on as Lower or Higher in reference to each other.  Each has it's own unique "THEME" or purpose (the 3's are grab attacks, the 4 is combinations, the 5 ends with takedowns, the 6 is weapon attacks, the 7 is club work, the 8 is knife work), so you see each has a quality unto it's own.

Does your instructor require you to do a form "already developed" or can you develop your own "personal form"?   If you are not sure... then I'd ask your instructor.  I personally require students to develop their own form which gives me a greater opportunity to study their mental processes and understanding of their art.

If you *don't* know exactly what your _specific_ instructor requires or is looking for.... then by all means *ASK*.  Be prepared (asking could be a great step toward this .... right ).  Then you will know a bit more of just what he/she is looking for..... all instructors view some things differently.

:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ceicei said:
			
		

> What other martial arts/styles did Mr. Ed Parker Sr. pick up or study prior to (or along with) his creation/standardization of American Kenpo?
> - Ceicei


Mr. Parker dabbled in many different things among them, Boxing, Judo, numerous Kung Fu systems, of course his main instruction from the Chow Brothers and then finally his own analytical mind that put everything together to what we have today.  

:asian:


----------



## TSUNAMIKENPO

In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
Tsunami Kenpo


----------



## Goldendragon7

TSUNAMIKENPO said:
			
		

> In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
> Tsunami Kenpo


 Well, for that question you should go to the source .... Lee Wedlake.  I really don't know what he is talking about.  I have my suspicions and opinions as to what he means but without asking him directly it would only be a guess.

 The _Base_ to the system *IS* the 154 that is well publicized.

 :asian:


----------



## Drifter

Mr. GD7,

 I'm still very low ranking, and working on Long 2 at the moment, but I was wondering, since the Long Forms have isolations at the end of them that give a preview of what's to come, does the end of Long 6 preview Long 7, and does the end of Long 7 preview Long 8? I was just wondering due to the transition from empty hands to clubs to knives. Thank you in advance, Sir!


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

TSUNAMIKENPO said:
			
		

> In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
> Tsunami Kenpo


If you count the extensions to the techs, there are 250 total. I was taught the extension is a technique in and of itself and teach it that way as well. Squeezing the Peach is designed for a Bear Hug, Arms Pinned, the catalyst for this tech. is the opponent pulling back. When you have the ext., it can alone be a technique if the catalyst is your opponent is pushing you forward.


DarK LorD


----------



## MisterMike

TSUNAMIKENPO said:
			
		

> In Ed Parkers Infinite insights vol 5 SGM Parker put 154 self defence techniques as the MINIUMUM STANDARD Lee Wedlake says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know of these? Where I can Find them.
> Tsunami Kenpo



When/Where did he say that? I'm going to wager that most of the techniques above the original 154 were not developed by Ed Parker. Same goes for most of the extensions past the original 32 orange belt extensions. They were made up by a few of his senior students, and may have had his stamp of approval, but they weren't developed by the man.

Richard Planas is credited with the first 9/10 of the 154 techniques (Yellow).
Someone else created the staff set.
Form 6 was the last form by Parker. Note the special closing in the final salute. 7 and 8 are weapons forms that some schools do not even teach.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I'm going to wager that most of the techniques above the original 154 were not developed by Ed Parker. Same goes for most of the extensions past the original 32 orange belt extensions. They were made up by a few of his senior students, and may have had his stamp of approval, but they weren't developed by the man.


I wonder Mike, are you willing to lose some money with that wager?   I'd also bet you weren't around when they (the extensions) were being created.

DarK LorD


----------



## kenpoworks

MisterMike......Form 6 was the last form by Parker....... [/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Hey MisterMike,
> are you sure about this, I was originally shown form 7 from a European Senior who"dummied" for Mr. Parker while he was developing the Form, he even gave me a photo copy of his original notes that he made during this time!
> 
> The Exstensions, well the last Senior(US), I aked about this said that (this is not verbatum)"they where only bona fide half way through Purple (1st degree BB)".
> 
> All this is of course "hearsay", it could be the "truth", but where's the "proof",
> what we need is some one who was actually around at the time to post and clarify things a little, wadda ya reckon!
> 
> Richard


----------



## Seabrook

Hey Drifter,

Long Form 7 is done with two sticks and was designed to utilize techniques right out of the system, although there are a few additional techniques that are new. 

Long Form 8 is done with two knives, and also utilizes techniques out of the system. There is also a section of the form where the finger set is performed with the knives. 


Hope that helps.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Seabrook

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> If you count the extensions to the techs, there are 250 total. I was taught the extension is a technique in and of itself and teach it that way as well. Squeezing the Peach is designed for a Bear Hug, Arms Pinned, the catalyst for this tech. is the opponent pulling back. When you have the ext., it can alone be a technique if the catalyst is your opponent is pushing you forward.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD


I have always thought of the extensions as the same base techniques with just more added, but looking at them as techniques in and of themselves, makes more sense to me. Thanks Clyde. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Seabrook

Since we are on the topic of Lee Wedlake, in his book, Kenpo Karate 201, he states that Star Block Set, Kicking Set, Coordination Set, Finger Set, and Two Man Set are the key sets of the system, while Striking Set 1 & 2, Stance Set 1 & 2, Staff Set, Kicking Set 2, Coordination Set 2, Finger Set 2, Long Form 7, and Long Form 8 were approved by Ed Parker, yet he did not require everyone to learn and teach them. 


I personally advocate all of the sets and forms. After all, they were all listed in Infinite Insights Volume 5. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Seabrook

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I wonder Mike, are you willing to lose some money with that wager? I'd also bet you weren't around when they (the extensions) were being created.
> 
> DarK LorD


To be honest Clyde, I was told the same thing for many of the extensions. But then again, I don't have continuous access to Larry Tatum....darn, I hate living in Canada. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## jfarnsworth

Seabrook said:
			
		

> I personally advocate all of the sets and forms. After all, they were all listed in Infinite Insights Volume 5.


I agree! At least this way if everyone were doing the same set of requirements most of the bickering wouldn't be with us. Those who have dropped material the students advance a little faster. Maybe we wouldn't have the your this rank & I'm this rank but I know more, why am I lower than you kinda thing.


----------



## Drifter

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hey Drifter,
> 
> Long Form 7 is done with two sticks and was designed to utilize techniques right out of the system, although there are a few additional techniques that are new.
> 
> Long Form 8 is done with two knives, and also utilizes techniques out of the system. There is also a section of the form where the finger set is performed with the knives.
> 
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com









 Thank you sir. I was aware of the fact that they were done with weapons, but didn't know that Finger Set was performed within Long 8. My instructor teaches up to Form 7 (although I would bet that he teaches the Black Belts Form 8, simply because he is a knife aficianado...) but I've never seen it. My question was more along the lines of the Isolations at the ends of the forms, if there are any in 7 and 8. Thank you again!


----------



## kenpo3631

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I wonder Mike, are you willing to lose some money with that wager?   I'd also bet you weren't around when they (the extensions) were being created.
> 
> DarK LorD



I don't know I heard that as well Clyde :idunno:


----------



## kenpo3631

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Since we are on the topic of Lee Wedlake, in his book, Kenpo Karate 201, he states that Star Block Set, Kicking Set, Coordination Set, Finger Set, and Two Man Set are the key sets of the system, while Striking Set 1 & 2, Stance Set 1 & 2, Staff Set, Kicking Set 2, Coordination Set 2, Finger Set 2, Long Form 7, and Long Form 8 were approved by Ed Parker, yet he did not require everyone to learn and teach them.
> 
> 
> I personally advocate all of the sets and forms. After all, they were all listed in Infinite Insights Volume 5.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



As a student of Mr. Wedlake's I can say that have been taught all of the sets, I.e. Star Block Set, Kicking Set, Coordination Set, Finger Set, and Two Man Set as well as Striking Set 1 & 2, Stance Set 1 & 2, Staff Set, Kicking Set 2, Coordination Set 2, Finger Set 2. Before training with Mr. Wedlake I was required to know the latter for testing purposes.


----------



## Doc

MisterMike said:
			
		

> When/Where did he say that? I'm going to wager that most of the techniques above the original 154 were not developed by Ed Parker. Same goes for most of the extensions past the original 32 orange belt extensions. They were made up by a few of his senior students, and may have had his stamp of approval, but they weren't developed by the man.
> 
> Richard Planas is credited with the first 9/10 of the 154 techniques (Yellow).
> Someone else created the staff set.
> Form 6 was the last form by Parker. Note the special closing in the final salute. 7 and 8 are weapons forms that some schools do not even teach.


Well sir you are partially correct. Some of the extensions were done by students of Mr. Parker. The "original extensions" were off the original 32 chart, and were known as the "Green/Brown" material to promote to brown. (I think I have the "manual" still in my archives.) Of course they were not originally extensions but simply the technique. Then with commecialization, the endings were split off to create another level of material. Some of the splits left some of the techniques "dangling." "Clutching Feathers ended with the heel palm, and "Dance of Death" ended with the takedown, as examples. This is also why originally there was no cross cover outs in the initial techniques. You were really right at he beginning or the middle of a technique and the crossover cover would come when you learned the extension and finished the technique. When the charts were changed to 24, this gave a chart and a half of extensions. Jim Mitchell worked a great deal on the rest of the extensions. Another good reason, in my opinion, to ignore them. I have actually have all of the archived extensions on video, created over a period of time with Jim Mitchell performing them unnder Ed Parkers scruitiny. (Not on camera, but his distinct voice behind the camera), as well as the rest of the commercial curriculum as well. Mitchell is also performing all of the "two-sets" he created.

The "Staff Set" was a collaboration between Ed Parker and primarily Chuck Sullivan.

The first original 10 techniques assigned to Yellow Belt were created last by several people. Tom Kelly was the primary influence with assistance from Richard Planas, and others, as well as Mr. Parker himself. It is important to note, no one ever created anything and injected it into the system without oversight, adjustments and approval of Ed Parker.

Forms 7 & 8 were indeed created by Mr. Parker. Originally all of the "formal" forms stopped at "Form 6." With these forms were certain "sets" Parker was developing. This included the "Club Set" and the "Knife Set." Mr. Parker while working on the club set(s) became frustrated because students were in a hurry to utilize them in competition, (the reason the weapons forms were created in the first place), so he stopped what he was working on, and simply took established techniques and modified them for a two-handed club form. This became "Form 7." This was unfortunate because the sets he was working on were unique and displayed single club in "open" and "closed" positions, and opposite open/closed in each hand in doubles applications. The "Knife Set" was simply changed to "Form 8."


----------



## TSUNAMI KENPO

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ok.... Ask a Question and I will try and answer it.....
> 
> Who is first........
> :asian:


When we talk about 30 tech per rank or 24 tech per rank and 16 tech per rank, are we talking about What SGM Parker was teaching at different times in his life or are the Tracys and others creating new kenpo techniques for their system?.

Tsunami kenpo


----------



## Doc

TSUNAMI KENPO said:
			
		

> When we talk about 30 tech per rank or 24 tech per rank and 16 tech per rank, are we talking about What SGM Parker was teaching at different times in his life or are the Tracys and others creating new kenpo techniques for their system?.
> 
> Tsunami kenpo


Both.


----------



## Doc

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I agree! At least this way if everyone were doing the same set of requirements most of the bickering wouldn't be with us. Those who have dropped material the students advance a little faster. Maybe we wouldn't have the your this rank & I'm this rank but I know more, why am I lower than you kinda thing.


You kidding right Jeff? You know they will find something to argue about.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Is Richard Huk Planas and good instructor?


----------



## Ceicei

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Is Richard Huk Planas and good instructor?


 He has an excellent reputation.  If you have a copy of "The Journey" book, you can read about him starting page 135 of how he progressed through Kenpo.

 - Ceicei


----------



## jfarnsworth

Doc said:
			
		

> You kidding right Jeff? You know they will find something to argue about.



Well most will certainly find something to squabble about however it might cut down on a lot of it.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Ceicei said:
			
		

> He has an excellent reputation. If you have a copy of "The Journey" book, you can read about him starting page 135 of how he progressed through Kenpo.
> 
> - Ceicei


He used to be about a hour drive from me. I wanted to contact him to study.


----------



## kenpo3631

Doc said:
			
		

> Well sir you are partially correct. Some of the extensions were done by students of Mr. Parker. The "original extensions" were off the original 32 chart, and were known as the "Green/Brown" material to promote to brown. (I think I have the "manual" still in my archives.) Of course they were not originally extensions but simply the technique. Then with commecialization, the endings were split off to create another level of material. Some of the splits left some of the techniques "dangling." "Clutching Feathers ended with the heel palm, and "Dance of Death" ended with the takedown, as examples. This is also why originally there was no cross cover outs in the initial techniques. You were really right at he beginning or the middle of a technique and the crossover cover would come when you learned the extension and finished the technique. When the charts were changed to 24, this gave a chart and a half of extensions. Jim Mitchell worked a great deal on the rest of the extensions. Another good reason, in my opinion, to ignore them. I have actually have all of the archived extensions on video, created over a period of time with Jim Mitchell performing them unnder Ed Parkers scruitiny. (Not on camera, but his distinct voice behind the camera), as well as the rest of the commercial curriculum as well. Mitchell is also performing all of the "two-sets" he created.
> 
> The "Staff Set" was a collaboration between Ed Parker and primarily Chuck Sullivan.
> 
> The first original 10 techniques assigned to Yellow Belt were created last by several people. Tom Kelly was the primary influence with assistance from Richard Planas, and others, as well as Mr. Parker himself. It is important to note, no one ever created anything and injected it into the system without oversight, adjustments and approval of Ed Parker.
> 
> Forms 7 & 8 were indeed created by Mr. Parker. Originally all of the "formal" forms stopped at "Form 6." With these forms were certain "sets" Parker was developing. This included the "Club Set" and the "Knife Set." Mr. Parker while working on the club set(s) became frustrated because students were in a hurry to utilize them in competition, (the reason the weapons forms were created in the first place), so he stopped what he was working on, and simply took established techniques and modified them for a two-handed club form. This became "Form 7." This was unfortunate because the sets he was working on were unique and displayed single club in "open" and "closed" positions, and opposite open/closed in each hand in doubles applications. The "Knife Set" was simply changed to "Form 8."



THANK YOU!, THANK YOU!, THANK YOU!

Doc, I was told almost verbatum by my instructor what you have posted here on MT. Thank you for setting the record straight. :asian:


----------



## kenpoworks

Doc,
I am glad you posted, you have tied up some loose ends for me and helped me more than you know!
many thanks 
Richard


----------



## Doc

Cool gentlemen.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Drifter said:
			
		

> GD7,  I was wondering, since the Long Forms have isolations at the end of them that give a preview of what's to come, does the end of Long 6 preview Long 7, and does the end of Long 7 preview Long 8? I was just wondering due to the transition from empty hands to clubs to knives.


 To my knowledge, the way  you worded this, you must be a student under a  "Planas" instructor.  Most insturctors don't refer to the forms having _isolations_ at the end of the forms as being a _preview of coming attractions_.   

 The forms *do* "layer" on top of one another and *build* upon each other reviewing the old and adding advanced possibilities.

 The forms 7 & 8 do not fit into this series.  What is now known as form 8 used to be form 7, due to the development of the clubs in a form,  Mr. Parker made the clubs form (Form 7), and moved up the knife form to become now Form 8.


----------



## Drifter

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> To my knowledge, the way you worded this, you must be a student under a "Planas" instructor. Most insturctors don't refer to the forms having _isolations_ at the end of the forms as being a _preview of coming attractions_.
> 
> The forms *do* "layer" on top of one another and *build* upon each other reviewing the old and adding advanced possibilities.
> 
> The forms 7 & 8 do not fit into this series. What is now known as form 8 used to be form 7, due to the development of the clubs in a form, Mr. Parker made the clubs form (Form 7), and moved up the knife form to become now Form 8.


 Thank you very much. I just prefer the term 'preview...' rather than isolations, actually. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I still have some bugs in my vocabulary it seems.


----------



## Goldendragon7

TSUNAMI KENPO said:
			
		

> When we talk about 32 tech per rank or 24 tech per rank and 16 tech per rank, are we talking about What SGM Parker was teaching at different times in his life or are the Tracys and others creating new kenpo techniques for their system?.


 In the beginning .... "There was Ed Parker..." ... all the techniques were his, but he also encouraged students of early times to "expand" (and of course,  continued to until his passing) and he would show options to the "base" technique he would introduce or teach that day. Many variations the spawned off of this type of teaching. This was the birth of the curriculum. 

 As these techniques were expanded upon and played with (practiced), many were then written down and recorded and over the years and at some point, named and were refined periodically. These then were place into a curriculum which also has endured many expansions. Some early students have gone their own ways taking some of this material with them and creating new variations on their own. 

 Ed Parker was always very particular and finicky about the techniques and always made sure that the current "version" had the most updated attention and innovations added to it before adding his authorative "stamp of approval" and placement into HIS system. (This is the heart of the differences between true Ed Parker material and others).

 Several of the techniques have interesting "stories" associated with them. For example, Lone Kimona or the old term {Kimona Grab}, came from Ed Parker witnessing first hand Prof. Chow being grabbed once and this was the crux of Chow's response. He was obviously impressed and developed a technique to record his experience. There were several of these.

  :asian:


----------



## kenpoworks

Great backround Golden Dragon,
do you have any more techniques that are based on actual events.
Rich


----------



## Goldendragon7

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Great backround Golden Dragon,
> do you have any more techniques that are based on actual events.
> Rich


 A few, but I save those for live seminars and camps.  

 :asian:


----------



## kenpoworks

I look forward to meeting you again at one of your events to hear about them.......next time you are in Eorope?
Richard


----------



## Goldendragon7

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> I look forward to meeting you again at one of your events to hear about them.......next time you are in Eorope?
> Richard


 Soon I hope........ I am waiting for your call! 

 :asian:


----------



## Seabrook

Doc said:
			
		

> The "Staff Set" was a collaboration between Ed Parker and primarily Chuck Sullivan.


Hi Sir,

My independent research from my latest book, "American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors", had found something different (although this may be what you were alluding to).  

While many believe that Chuck Sullivan created the Staff Set, of what I found, Ed Parker actually learned the Staff Set from a Chinese Kung Fu expert. Ed Parker then taught the Staff Set to Chuck Sullivan. Seeing a lot of repetitiveness, particularly with the spinning maneuvers, Sullivan streamlined the Staff Set and got the approval of the new version from Ed Parker (hence, the reason why many Kenpoists think that Mr. Sullivan created the set).

Your thoughts?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## bdparsons

Seabrook said:
			
		

> While many believe that Chuck Sullivan created the Staff Set, of what I found, Ed Parker actually learned the Staff Set from a Chinese Kung Fu expert. Ed Parker then taught the Staff Set to Chuck Sullivan. Seeing a lot of repetitiveness, particularly with the spinning maneuvers, Sullivan streamlined the Staff Set and got the approval of the new version from Ed Parker (hence, the reason why many Kenpoists think that Mr. Sullivan created the set).



For the Record: Mr. Sullivan has stated much the same thing. He does not claim to have come up with the Staff Set on his own. He does acknowledge changing the set that was taught to him by Ed Parker by elminating a lot of repetition. Mr. Parker was pleased with the end result and chose to include the modified Staff Set in his curriculum as the set to be taught. Mr. Sullivan also acknowledges that various instructors have modified even that work (sometimes unintentionally) when teaching the set to their students.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Doc

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hi Sir,
> 
> My independent research from my latest book, "American Kenpo Mastery: A Guide for Students and Instructors", had found something different (although this may be what you were alluding to).
> 
> While many believe that Chuck Sullivan created the Staff Set, of what I found, Ed Parker actually learned the Staff Set from a Chinese Kung Fu expert. Ed Parker then taught the Staff Set to Chuck Sullivan. Seeing a lot of repetitiveness, particularly with the spinning maneuvers, Sullivan streamlined the Staff Set and got the approval of the new version from Ed Parker (hence, the reason why many Kenpoists think that Mr. Sullivan created the set).
> 
> Your thoughts?
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



Well you're right sir. At that time ALL of the sets came from various Chinese sources, and then were modified by Parker and, in some cases like Staff Set, in-put from students. What I meant was the final product was a collaboration of a modification of an original product. I have always written that the information came from other sources like Ark Wong. The same is true for Star Block, Two-Man Set, Tiger and the Crane, and even Short One/Short Two, etc. They were all learned by Parker who in turn taught them and modified them to make them his own, and in some instances his students participated in the process. However Parker was always the final word. In the case of Staff set ONLY Chuck Sullivan was involved in the creation with Parker thus, his name will always be associated with its development.

Thanks gentlemen for the clarification. I sometimes forget some do not have all the background like you do when they read singular threads.


----------



## Seabrook

Doc said:
			
		

> Well you're right sir. At that time ALL of the sets came from various Chinese sources, and then were modified by Parker and, in some cases like Staff Set, in-put from students. What I meant was the final product was a collaboration of a modification of an original product. I have always written that the information came from other sources like Ark Wong. The same is true for Star Block, Two-Man Set, Tiger and the Crane, and even Short One/Short Two, etc. They were all learned by Parker who in turn taught them and modified them to make them his own, and in some instances his students participated in the process. However Parker was always the final word. In the case of Staff set ONLY Chuck Sullivan was involved in the creation with Parker thus, his name will always be associated with its development.
> 
> Thanks gentlemen for the clarification. I sometimes forget some do not have all the background like you do when they read singular threads.


Thanks Mr. Chapel. The next time I come to California (I am in Canada....cry,cry) I would love to sit down with you, buy you dinner, and pick your brain for about 5 hours! I would have to bring a huge booklet and a lot of pens, LOL. 


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## KenpoNovice

Hello everyone! This question is for anyone interested in answering:

Earlier in the thread, Mr. Conaster posted the Master Key techniques in the American kenpo system. Could an argument be made that the Yellow Belt Self-Defense techniques are the master key techniques? I know Yellow Belt was added later, but in the EPAK 24-technique system, with anywhere from 10 to 12 techniques at Yellow Belt, this is the area where students are going to encounter the techniques first.

*Examples:* Intellectual Departure = Intellectual Departure
Five Swords = Delayed Sword
Thundering Hammers = Attacking Mace
Shielding Hammer = Sword of Destruction
Repeating Mace = Checking the Storm

I know this list is not complete, but if Yellow Belt couldnt work, shouldnt we revise the system, placing the Master Key Techniques at Yellow Belt, so the student can familiarize themselves from the beginning?


A confused student,
KenpoNovice


----------



## Doc

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Thanks Mr. Chapel. T... buy you dinner,...
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


Bring food money.


----------



## Doc

KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> Hello everyone! This question is for anyone interested in answering:
> 
> Earlier in the thread, Mr. Conaster posted the Master Key techniques in the American kenpo system. Could an argument be made that the Yellow Belt Self-Defense techniques are the master key techniques? I know Yellow Belt was added later, but in the EPAK 24-technique system, with anywhere from 10 to 12 techniques at Yellow Belt, this is the area where students are going to encounter the techniques first.
> 
> *Examples:* Intellectual Departure = Intellectual Departure
> Five Swords = Delayed Sword
> Thundering Hammers = Attacking Mace
> Shielding Hammer = Sword of Destruction
> Repeating Mace = Checking the Storm
> 
> I know this list is not complete, but if Yellow Belt couldnt work, shouldnt we revise the system, placing the Master Key Techniques at Yellow Belt, so the student can familiarize themselves from the beginning?
> 
> 
> A confused student,
> KenpoNovice


The answer to your question is; Yes or No, Yes and no!

First your idea is based on a series of assumptions that may or may not bear fruit depending on whose teaching.

The number of techniques in the first series varies greatly even beyond what you mentioned.

You would have to assume that everyone teaches the same way AND with the same level of knowledge.

Because of the conceptual nature of the product, everything is open to instructor interpretation, good or bad.

If you were to ask the GoldenDragon Dennis he may say yes because he understands the methodology and would lay a foudation at the first level with information that will continue throughtout his lesson plans. Someone else may just "teach the techniques" as they know them.

If you were to ask me, I'd say no becasue we don't believe there are "master key techniques," only "master key principles" to create a parallel term.

So it depends on whom you talk to, their understanding, their interpretation of their understanding, and how they choose to impart information.


----------



## Goldendragon7

KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> Could an argument be made that the Yellow Belt Self-Defense techniques are the master key techniques?


 NO,  however, since they are the 1st exposure to the system, obviously there are  many key ingredients there but not all not to mention at this level there is no  need to press "keys".... the student can't even walk and chew gum much less  understand the underlying approach and details to the system.  

 That is  why we 1st are taught to - _*KNOW OF*_ ..... then, _*KNOW*_  ......  and finally we seek to _*UNDERSTAND*_. 



			
				KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> If Yellow Belt couldnt work as the "Master Key Techniques for the system", shouldnt we revise the system, placing the Master Key Techniques at Yellow Belt, so the student can familiarize themselves from the beginning?


 
  Possibly, but once you clearly (and I have to emphasize *clearly*)  there  is no need (why reinvent the wheel) annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd there is much more to it  than just 10 beginning techniques. 

  :asian:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> NO,  however, since they are the 1st exposure to the system, obviously there are  many key ingredients there but not all not to mention at this level there is no  need to press "keys".... the student can't even walk and chew gum much less  understand the underlying approach and details to the system.
> 
> That is  why we 1st are taught to - _*KNOW OF*_ ..... then, _*KNOW*_  ......  and finally we seek to _*UNDERSTAND*_.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly, but once you clearly (and I have to emphasize *clearly*)  there  is no need (why reinvent the wheel) annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd there is much more to it  than just 10 beginning techniques.
> 
> :asian:


There you go giving the obvious answer again,


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> There you go giving the obvious answer again,


 In the magic words of a great Animal House alumni..... "Wha'd ya e'spect ya' moron"  :idunno:

artyon:artyon:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> In the magic words of a great Animal House alumni..... "Wha'd ya e'spect ya' moron"  :idunno:
> 
> artyon:artyon:


What a maroon.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

So...do you guys, like, know each other? Dude?


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> So...do you guys, like, know each other? Dude?


You sir, missed a good session with the group from England. Do eye no u?


----------



## KenpoNovice

Mr. Chapel and Mr. Conaster:

Thank you for your answers!

KenpoNovice


----------



## Goldendragon7

KenpoNovice said:
			
		

> Mr. Chapel and Mr. Conaster:
> 
> Thank you for your answers!
> 
> KenpoNovice


 :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> So...do you guys, like, know each other? Dude?


 yeah.......... I met him a time or two...

 :supcool:


----------



## bdparsons

Mr. Conatser,

I recently posted the following in a recent thread. What are your thoughts, please?


Category Completion seems to be one of the most widely used and least explained terms in all of EPAK. What is your definition of this term, how does it apply to how you use/approach the art and can you give specific examples where it is demonstrated? 



Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> yeah.......... I met him a time or two...
> 
> :supcool:


I have no independent recollection of Mr. Conatser or any illegal acts he may or may not have committed.


----------



## Sigung86

Doc said:
			
		

> I have no independent recollection of Mr. Conatser or any illegal acts he may or may not have committed.



I take it you forgot about the gorilla costume and cheez whiz incident in Hoboken back in 1978???  

How easily we forget!!!! :drinkbeerartyon::lool:


----------



## Doc

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> I take it you forgot about the gorilla costume and cheez whiz incident in Hoboken back in 1978???
> 
> How easily we forget!!!! :drinkbeerartyon::lool:


My attorney will contact you on Monday morning for violation of the confidentiality agreement you signed.


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## Goldendragon7

bdparsons said:
			
		

> Mr. Conatser,
> I recently posted the following in a recent thread. What are your thoughts, please?
> 
> Category Completion seems to be one of the most widely used and least explained terms in all of EPAK. What is your definition of this term, how does it apply to how you use/approach the art and can you give specific examples where it is demonstrated?
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons
> Triangle Kenpo Institute



The term "category completion" is a term that "Huk Planas" has coined (not an actual Ed Paker Kenpo term) to demonstrate the many basic '_actions_' that ones body can and should be aware of.  i.e. inward block - outward block (uppercase) then downward outside - downward inside (lower case).  Demonstrating that there is an inward and an outward in the upper level and an inside and outside on the lower level thus teaching a complete complimentary coverage for both upper and lower.  This happens over and over with all of the basics.  But many seem to not know or understand all of these options and varied basic actions that we can have with the human body.

I hope that sheds some light on the subject.

btw how are you....


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## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> My attorney will contact you on Monday morning for violation of the confidentiality agreement you signed.



I still have not got the notice, btw "Big Daddy" how was the trip?


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## Goldendragon7

:ultracool


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## Kraiguar

_786_

_What is the Black Dot Focus Concept ?_


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## Doc

Kraiguar said:


> _786_
> 
> _What is the Black Dot Focus Concept ?_



Having a significant background and exposure to the Japanese Martial Arts in Hawaii presented Ed Parker, with a dichotomy of perspectives when he made the transition to a wholly Chinese based methodology in Southern California around 1961. 

One of the prevailing methods among some Japanese Stylists is the concept of the "One Punch Kill Philosophy." Although a misinterpretation of the Chinese Martial Sciences, it prevailed and dominated within the Japanese Cultural Arts in general, and the various Karate-do styles in particular. Some have philosophized its progenitor was in the teaching of the Japanese Sword Arts.

This concept emphasized the training of sharp powerful blows designed to incapacitate or "kill" with one strike, in conjunction with the pari passu position of the opposite striking hand to the hip. 

Prevalent in Kata, and step sparring, it seemed in Parker's observations to be at odds with the combat experiences he had on the streets, and his training as a boxer, even though the Japanese were intensely finical in this aspect of their training. Parker considered this to be a tocsin in any interpretation of what he was exposed to, and clearly a questionable tactic.

Ultimately this flawed concept became completely exposed when Parker switched lineages. He often spoke of how he had acute dysphagia in this regard, and found its Kafkaesque nature obvious when the misinterpretation was placed in context. Clearly this was an unfledged perspective.

Explained by Sifu Ark Wong as a curate's egg methodology, it depended extensively on information not readily available to the perspective of the Japanese training, which emphasized the "do" aspect over function. Although potentially an artifice, clearly it was being misinterpreted.

Parker ultimately chose to demonstrate his perspicacity of the concept by inserting an elementary or simplified concept into his various teaching interpretations after his lineage change. He conceptually called it "White Dot versus Black Dot Focus."

From a superficies perspective, he assigned "White Dot" to the Japanese concept. This indicated the emphasis of striking with one hand while assigning the counter position of the opposing limb to "pulling back" to the hip, ostensibly to create a powerful strike. Although anatomically, in some applications, this can have a measure of viability, in other applications it ignore the reality of human physical confrontation and contested martial interactivity. 

The "white dot" was to be visualized on a "black background," with the white dot representing the focus of the strike, with the exclusion of all other awareness or "blackness." While Parker allowed some validity to the concept of the pari passu, he felt to ignore other offensive possibilities of a combatant as folly and felt it necessary to interpellate the idea.

In the early years many old and transplanted students had great difficulty when Parker attempted to deracinate them from old habits. In many instances, he chose to let them continue even though he personally felt much of it was a tarradiddle at odds with purposeful applications.

Parker however, based his own applications on the "Black Dot Focus" perspective as emphasize by my first teacher, Ark Wong. Although stopping short of direct vilipend of the concept, Ark Wong often spoke of its misapplications. 

"Black Dot Focus" as promoted by the Parker Concept visualized a "black dot on a white background." Here the black dot represented the striking point, and the white background reminded students to be aware of defensive and offensive possibilities beyond the strike emphasis. However, even though this is true, all applications are subject to the vicissitudes of the dynamics of human martial interactions of combat Kraiguar.


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## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> The "*white dot*" was to be visualized on a "black background," with the white dot representing the focus of the strike, with the exclusion of all other awareness or "blackness."
> 
> "*Black Dot Focus*" Here the black dot represented the striking point, and the white background reminded students to be aware of defensive and offensive possibilities beyond the strike emphasis.




  Hey I thought I told you not to tell anyone without my permission!  :yoda:


----------



## donald

Goldendragon7 said:


> No, but very close at the Internationals one year this fighter named "choo choo" was about to get his ........ handed to him. Mr. Parker came flying down the stage and the entire arena was around this one ring with he and Mr. Parker in the middle...... I was right behind Mr. Parker, Man was that exciting!! But it didn't come to pass. Thank goodness......... The guy smartly backed down......:rofl:
> 
> I would imagine that the agitator had to take at least a moment to look around, and realize even if he could get through the guy with the silver mane there were an awful lot  of  guys wearing his patch!


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Hey I thought I told you not to tell anyone without my permission!  :yoda:



My Bad! So does this mean no more BBQ in Scottsdale?


----------



## Kraiguar

_786_

_Thank you Doc. ~Peace and Blessings~_


----------



## Kraiguar

_786_


_Choo Choo as he was called was originally a student of Willie Short studying Shotokan. When Mr. Shorts school closed Choo Choo whose real name is Gerald Mayes along with his brother Charles, Ernest "Madman" Russell, Ricky Heath Jr., Gary "Rabbit Goodman, Nathan Cruise, the Robinson family, Eddie Horton and others joined the legendary 103rd Street BKF school in South Central Los Angeles. Choo Choo passed away several years ago. _
_~Peace and Blessings~_


----------



## Doc

Kraiguar said:


> _786_
> 
> 
> _Choo Choo as he was called was originally a student of Willie Short studying Shotokan. When Mr. Shorts school closed Choo Choo whose real name is Gerald Mayes along with his brother Charles, Ernest "Madman" Russell, Ricky Heath Jr., Gary "Rabbit Goodman, Nathan Cruise, the Robinson family, Eddie Horton and others joined the legendary 103rd Street BKF school in South Central Los Angeles. Choo Choo passed away several years ago. _
> _~Peace and Blessings~_



What many don't know is the bulk of the "original" young group of competitors of the B.K.F. received their basics training from other styles and teachers. Primarily from "hard" Japanese Styles like the "Kobayashi-Ryu" as taught by William Short, Shorin-Ryu at the community PASLA Center in South L.A., and the Zendo-Ryu teachings of Phil Skornia and Steve Fisher out of Inglewood. "Choo Choo" Mayes was a product of the hard school training who improved his sparring and became a fierce competitor. Most were already brown and black when they switched over. Along with Kraiguar Vontre Moss, Lenny Fergerson, and others, these young men became some of the best tournament point fighters in the world. But what was unique was these guys were kids in their mid-teens who refused to fight in their own age group. They fought with and against mature men,  and many of there opponents were war veterans of the Viet Nam era, and they still won. This was the golden age of competition in general and B.K.F. Competition in particular. It is also the reason why the generations that followed never lived up to the levels these pioneers had established. One of these days, I'm going to write a book on the real history of the period.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> One of these days, I'm going to write a book on the real history of the period.




Now I would enjoy that book.  I could see if and where you were stretching the truth.....LOL


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Now I would enjoy that book.  I could see if and where you were stretching the truth.....LOL



But if I'm writing the book ... How would you know?  Truthfully I have some great memories and have known some really great people, (you included: choke) over the years. I'm blessed with almost a photographic memory and recall. They were good times, and the social component was just as important as the hard training. No hand or foot pads and only the sissies wore shin-guards, and cups. Man were we crazy.


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## Kraiguar

_786_

_The "Quick Kick" as it was called was used to break the cup and we would attempt to do just that. I remember fighting Darnell Garcia in the finals of Mr. Parker's 1972 Pasedena Open and was successful in cracking his._
_Two of the crazy men and pioneers of that era that Doc mentioned who would not wear cups while sparring quick kick specialists like me and others were Joe Lewis and Ron Chapel. ~Peace and Blessing~_


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> But if I'm writing the book ... How would you know?



Because..... I'm the "GoldenDragon"  I know these things..... or have means to find out.......... hee hee....... YOU should know better than to make such a statement........ shame on you..

No Bar-B-Q for U next time .... Only Chinese Buffet!

:whip:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Because..... I'm the "GoldenDragon"  I know these things..... or have means to find out.......... hee hee....... YOU should know better than to make such a statement........ shame on you..
> 
> No Bar-B-Q for U next time .... Only Chinese Buffet!
> 
> :whip:



You know you are REALLY hurting me by sending me to the Chines Buffet. Hurt me, hurt me.


----------



## IWishToLearn

Mmmmmm.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> You know you are REALLY hurting me by sending me to the Chines Buffet. Hurt me, hurt me.



Hey.... BTW ... what are you doing invading "_*MY*_" Q & A Thread......  go start your own...... geeze can't keep people out of your backyard these days......................  lol

:apv:


Ok now that that is settled........ any new questions...... anyone?


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## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> Hey.... BTW ... what are you doing invading "_*MY*_" Q & A Thread...... go start your own...... geeze can't keep people out of your backyard these days...................... lol
> 
> :apv:
> 
> 
> Ok now that that is settled........ any new questions...... anyone?


What is the average yearly rainfall in the Amazon Basin?
Sean


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## Goldendragon7

Touch Of Death said:


> What is the average yearly rainfall in the Amazon Basin?
> Sean



Very funny Sean.......:moon:

Answer.... Not enough!

lol

I guess I should have said KENPO questions.... lol

:yoda:


----------



## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> Very funny Sean.......:moon:
> 
> Answer.... Not enough!
> 
> lol
> 
> I guess I should have said KENPO questions.... lol
> 
> :yoda:


After teaching lock out, what are some methods you use to break the habbit of locking out?
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7

Touch Of Death said:


> After teaching lock out, what are some methods you use to break the habbit of locking out?
> Sean



Never had that problem yet.  I teach to lock out, thrust, snap, whip, etc... with equal control... If the student is having a problem.... practice practice practice..... 

:yinyang:


----------



## Tames D

Kenpo is one of the more highly technical martial arts systems. Having said that...Can an Autistic child *really* overcome his handicap to be an effective Kenpoist?


----------



## Goldendragon7

QUI-GON said:


> Kenpo is one of the more highly technical martial arts systems.



IMHO ... Kenpo is no more technical than any other martial art _should_ be.  Ed Parker did bring awareness and Logic to the table.  Thus, many innovations and concepts were implemented into his system that separate us today from the _traditional_ systems.



QUI-GON said:


> Having said that...Can an Autistic child *really* overcome his handicap to be an effective Kenpoist?



To fully overcome a handicap may be very difficult task.  I'm not sure if Kenpo is the total answer.  What I do know is that given a skilled instructor (Just like Anne Sullvan did for Helen Keller) and a student or person with the capability to accept the lessons presented can make "measurable progress in reasonable" time towards his/her goal.  

I am working with a young man right now that is really doing well.

:supcool:


----------



## Touch Of Death

Goldendragon7 said:


> Never had that problem yet. I teach to lock out, thrust, snap, whip, etc... with equal control... If the student is having a problem.... practice practice practice.....
> 
> :yinyang:


So you just tell them to flow and they just flow without any bad habbits popping up or mechanical timing concerns. Remarkable!
Sean


----------



## Goldendragon7

Touch Of Death said:


> So you just tell them to flow and they just flow without any bad habbits popping up or mechanical timing concerns. Remarkable!
> Sean



No....... timing, balance, penetration or other issues are not what I consider a 'bad habbit'.... any issues that need to be addressed ... *are*... when necessary.  All apart of the "process".... you know that.

:high5:


----------



## Goldendragon7

:yoda:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> Hey.... BTW ... what are you doing invading "_*MY*_" Q & A Thread......  go start your own...... geeze can't keep people out of your backyard these days......................  lol
> 
> :apv:
> 
> 
> Ok now that that is settled........ any new questions...... anyone?



Sheesh, what a grouch!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> Sheesh, what a grouch!



LOL, man talk about a delayed response (hey that could be a new technique) LOL, only 6 months after the original post...... Man if it takes that long to get to the post this must be sub par IV, omg lmao  I make funny

:roflmao:


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:


> LOL, man talk about a delayed response (hey that could be a new technique) LOL, only 6 months after the original post...... Man if it takes that long to get to the post this must be sub par IV, omg lmao  I make funny
> 
> :roflmao:



For some reason I don't always get notification of responses, and ultimately just stumble upon replies.

Besides, you've been a grouch longer than a mere six months anyway.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:


> For some reason I don't always get notification of responses, and ultimately just stumble upon replies.
> 
> Besides, you've been a grouch longer than a mere six months anyway.



Oh ok, you say that here.........  Besides, _*Oscar *_is _*NOT*_ my name!!

:fart:


----------



## Kenpo1981

Doc said:


> No they don't. that was a marketing strategy put forth by the gracies to sell their brand of competition "judo" they call Brazilian jiujitsu.
> 
> 
> 
> Same answer. the American culture does not fight on the ground, particularly in adulthood.
> 
> 
> 
> The length of the fight is irrelevent to the question of "mounting."
> 
> 
> 
> Really not true. Mr. Parker felt that grappling" had been thoroughly explored. He knew that a grappler in a competition venue was a formidable opponent because that's all they train for from day one, but he too was an accomplished grappler from the Dan Zan Ryu System of Henry Okazaki. Chow too was a "mat specialist" who loved to grapple as well.
> 
> Parker felt the real area to explore was how NOT to go to the ground and we came up with some very interesting stuff.
> 
> In the American culture of stand up fighting, there exists an unwritten rule that suggest if two guys go down, they will disengage, stand up, and start over. Everyone knows and understands the consequences of being on the ground whether you're winning or not. Losing is but a bystander and a boot away. In my adult experience, I have rarely seen two adult men wrestling around on the ground who were not both drunk. The Gracies did one hell of a sales job. I hear that all the time, until I ask the question, "When is the last time you saw two men not drunk wrestling on the ground?"


 
   Thanks so much for these responses, Doc! I've been responding similarly to the same statement for a long time. I grew up street fighting in a rough town. I was a police officer in a rough area for many years and fought very often (sounds familiar to you I would assume). I'm no grappling expert by any means, but things went to the ground when I chose to take them there. If you are in Brazil I would assume a lot more fights go to the ground since groundfighting is so prevalent there. We are indeed a different culture and historically our fighting is not ground-based.


----------



## HKphooey

Doc, While one cannot deny some of the comments you have made, you must agree the times have changed a bit.  You walk into any MMA gym and there are plenty of people training, good and bad.  That skill will eventually make it to the street.  The same way traditional styles became obsolete when street fighting became unconditional warfare with now honor.  While many fight scenerios are stand up, others end on the ground.  My goal has always been to stand up!  Kenpo has helped me do that.


----------



## Doc

HKphooey said:


> Doc, While one cannot deny some of the comments you have made, you must agree the times have changed a bit.  You walk into any MMA gym and there are plenty of people training, good and bad.  That skill will eventually make it to the street.  The same way traditional styles became obsolete when street fighting became unconditional warfare with now honor.  While many fight scenerios are stand up, others end on the ground.  My goal has always been to stand up!  Kenpo has helped me do that.



Actually sir, times haven't changed all that much. We are in the third coming of grappling, and none of it is new. I watched Gene "Judo" LeBell become a world champion over at the Olympic Auditorium when grappling was at its heyday in the fifties. Every kid on the block, and every "bad dude" was Freddie Blassie in the sixties, and the pretty boys thought they were "Gorgeous George," whom even Muhammad Ali emulated. But much like the "Kung Fu" craze of the seventies where every kid was throwing kicks at each other while making "cat-like" kiai's, when it came time to put your own *** on the line in a real fight, everybody let that stuff go in favor of standup punching and now have adding kicking, and nobody on offense or defense ever *wanted* to go to the ground. Near as I can see, it hasn't changed at all on the street. Nobody is a tough guy on the ground holding onto one guy while others are standing over him who he doesn't know. That "uneasy" feeling in a fight gives way to sheer panic under those circumstances. In all my years of professional law enforcement on the street, I've never seen any difference between before or after the latest craze, whatever it happened to be sir.


----------



## HKphooey

Doc said:


> Actually sir, times haven't changed all that much. We are in the third coming of grappling, and none of it is new. I watched Gene "Judo" LeBell become a world champion over at the Olympic Auditorium when grappling was at its heyday in the fifties. Every kid on the block, and every "bad dude" was Freddie Blassie in the sixties, and the pretty boys thought they were "Gorgeous George," whom even Muhammad Ali emulated. But much like the "Kung Fu" craze of the seventies where every kid was throwing kicks at each other while making "cat-like" kiai's, when it came time to put your own *** on the line in a real fight, everybody let that stuff go in favor of standup punching and now have adding kicking, and nobody on offense or defense ever *wanted* to go to the ground. Near as I can see, it hasn't changed at all on the street. Nobody is a tough guy on the ground holding onto one guy while others are standing over him who he doesn't know. That "uneasy" feeling in a fight gives way to sheer panic under those circumstances. In all my years of professional law enforcement on the street, I've never seen any difference between before or after the latest craze, whatever it happened to be sir.


 

Doc, do not get me wrong, my goal (as a 6'7' dude) is to keep my height and reach advantage.  I do not want to go to the ground, but comparing Judo/grappling to today's ground and pound, is like comparing a revolver to an automatic.  The mindset of the individual also is much different today.  And keep in mind the craze is still at its infancy.  MMA fighters are combining all aspects of the arts, not just grapling. There can be a one on one situation on the streets.  There will not always be others around.  

As always Sir, a pleasure discussing topics with you.


----------



## Kyoshi

I read the 30 first pages of this thread and indeed got wiser - i know its from 2002 - but i hope goldendragon still answars questions?

My questions is : *When you teach short two how indepth do you go?  Could you explain some of the more esoteric knowledge you have concerning this form? Just a little something off the wall that will get me thinking.*

Hope to receive your respond - thanks 

Nikolaj


----------

