# Hwa Rang Do



## arnisador

I remember when Hwa Rang Do was the hot thing--the series of books by Joo Bang Lee and of course the Michael Echanis phenomenon (I do have the books). It's interesting to see what has become of it; Joo Sang Lee evidently retired from the martial arts leaving Joo Bang Lee with all of Hwa Rang Do. They have added an "undergraduate" art, Tae Soo Do, pre-black belt. Meanwhile a former student has a site with a warning to members of the official Hwa Rang Do organization and many tales told out of school.

Does anyone here practice this art?


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## Pyrael

i've been looking at the site for some time; research what not and i notice the perciseness of their history and their constitution...a very proud art if you will and on the interview with the head of the Hwarangdo fed you can see this.  havent seen its techniques in real life though, but i have met a student of hwarangdo and he knowledge of korean arts is vast...im actually looking foward into joining it


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## arnisador

It certainly seems to have a wide variety of techniques, including weapons. Will you start in ther Tae Soo Do art then?


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## Pyrael

tae soo do? tang soo do isnt it? i think it would be best for me to bite my tonge cuz i dont wanna make false statements...like they said " do your homework" cuz they completely diss people who degrade their art in any form.  but since their site is down i cant say ****


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## Pyrael

from what i just gathered _tae_ soo do is a branch of hwarangdo...


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Pyrael _
> 
> *from what i just gathered tae soo do is a branch of hwarangdo *



Evidently, after achieving black belt rank in Tae Soo Do one starts in Hwa Rang Do.

From here:


> Grandmaster Dr. Joo Bang Lee created Tae Soo Do® as a simplified subset of Hwa Rang Do® (the undergraduate Hwa Rang Do® Program) that is more accessible to all martial art enthusiasts no matter their experience level. Like Tae Kwon Do and Karate, Tae Soo Do® is much more sport oriented.



From here:


> Upon receiving TSD 1st Dan Black Belt, Student receives Yellow Belt (Chil Kub) in Hwa Rang Do®. Student is also responsible for Moo Kub (White Belt) and Phal Kub (Orange Belt) material in Hwa Rang Do®.
> 
> Upon receiving 1st Dan Black Belt in Hwa Rang Do®, 2nd Dan Black Belt in Tae Soo Do® is obtained.


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## WaterCircleHarmony

Que? En ingles por favor!

So is Hwarangdo deserving of a good picking at then? 

Is hwarangdo a modern formulation offering techniques that are found in most other korean arts?? No, i'm not trying to be disrespectful. Genuinely curious. i was under the inmpression that hwarangdo was an age old art.


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## arnisador

While Dr. Lee suggests that it's 2000 years old most people believe it to be largely his take on Hapkido, I think.


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## WaterCircleHarmony

It's a shame that there are so many arts claiming this and that about their age. 
It really does say something about integrity doesn't it?
The Hwarang must have been really busy people learning all these MA's!

There's a book out about TKD fitness i think and it introduces the Hwarang as blown out of proportion and nothing more than minstrels of the court. I'll get to work on that lead.


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## WaterCircleHarmony

The above post was not meant in mockery or to cause offence to anyone. Please do not take the ramblings of this philistine to be of any significance. thank you. :asian:


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## Andi

I never do. You Philistine.


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## WaterCircleHarmony

cheers ta. thanks for comin!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## jkn75

HwaRangDo is worthy of picking, if you can find an instructor to teach it. The problem has been the Michael DeAlba split. So you need to know who is teaching you, like any other martial art. (do a search on hwa rang do or michael dealba and you can get the dirt on this split.)

From what I have heard about this art there are a lot of techniques and weapons. The only similarity with hapkido I have heard is with the techniques. It seems to be a combination of Tae kwon do's kicks (especially the advanced jumping and spinning kicks) and hapkido techniques (just more applications). There is a lot of everything. all different fighting ranges etc. So if that is your thing, go for it. With this wide background some of the techniques taught in other korean arts probably overlap. 

:yinyang:

All martial arts can be traced back 2000 years or more though. The first thing (man women or monkey) that picked up a stick, rock,etc and used it to defend themself or others and then practiced with the stick, rock etc to get better practiced martial arts. This goes back to the very root of martial arts which there is always some debate.


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## Angus

My only problem with Hwarang do (I wanted to study it) was that once you begin to train in it, you must adhere specifically to their principles and techniques. No outside martial arts are allowed inside a Hwarang do dojang and, hypothetically, in the student. You are supposed to give up and forsake all prior martial art knowledge to study Hwarang do, and if you become an instructor you are not allowed to teach any other martial art or allow it to be taught in your dojang (not to mention you can't study anything else). Any breakage of these rules results in an expulsion from their national hwarang do association and revokation of the black belt, if I remember correctly.  Yikes. I'm into both traditional arts and cross training, but I'm not going to drop everything I've done up until now just because they assume their style encapsulates all possible situations and techniques. To each his own, though.

However, it does look like a very, very good art and I honestly wish I could practice it. Fairly well rounded, but I don't think it's the be all and end all of MA like it claims it is on the official site.


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## arnisador

I always thought it looked interesting too, but I too was concerned about the somewhat cultish behaviour.

You do get two black belts for the price of one ther with their Tae Soo Do program.


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## theneuhauser

geez, hwarangdo is just another martial soap opera! when will it stop? thanks for the links at the start, arnisador, i think.:shrug:


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## MartialArtist

hwarangdo is very old, it was the "martial art" of noble young men.  Not really a martial art really, but a training method really.

Ummmm...  Schools or the "official site" (there is none, there is no such thing as an official site for a martial art because anyone could make one) don't really know the philosophy behind hwarangdo.  So before you bash it, at least know what it's philosophy is.

I've heard of the "one and only" statement and it is just not true.  What it REALLY SAYS is that it SUGGEST YOU EMPTY YOUR CUP so to say.  Like in wing chun, to learn it faster, you should empty your knowledge.  It doesn't mean forget, just forget it temporarily and once you get a hang of it, incorporate it with techniques of your own style and start developing your own.


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## Chris from CT

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *hwarangdo is very old, it was the "martial art" of noble young men.  Not really a martial art really, but a training method really.
> 
> Ummmm...  Schools or the "official site" (there is none, there is no such thing as an official site for a martial art because anyone could make one) don't really know the philosophy behind hwarangdo.  So before you bash it, at least know what it's philosophy is.*



Joo Bang Lee has the "Hwa Rang Do" name registered for trademark, so I would think if he wanted to have an official site that would be his choosing.  Whether or not someone believes in the ties to the ancient Korean Hwa Rang is another story.

I agree you should know both sides of the story before making a gudgement call.  The direct links to the other side of the coin is at...

http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html

http://www.hwarang.org/Contract.html

http://www.hwarang.org/Reply.html



> _Originally posted by  theneuhauser _
> *geez, hwarangdo is just another martial soap opera! when will it stop? *



After reading the above links, and taking out the word "just" in theneuhauser's statement, I believe, that it would not be considered bashing, but merely a descriptive observation.  There are many effective martial arts out there that could be considered soap operas.  You just have to research deep enough.

Take care.


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## MartialArtist

Registering the name is hardly the official site.  Legally?  Yes.  But an official representative?  Not at all.

Trying to officiate the martial arts is like putting a copyright on the Bible.


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## Chris from CT

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Registering the name is hardly the official site.  Legally?  Yes.  But an official representative?  Not at all.*



He says he is the founder of this martial art.  Ok, I can give him that, but what comes into question is...


> _Originally posted by Chris from CT _
> *Whether or not someone believes in the ties to the ancient Korean Hwa Rang...*







> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Trying to officiate the martial arts is like putting a copyright on the Bible. *



I like that one. 

Take care


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## MartialArtist

The ancient hwa rang?  I do not doubt that almost all the Korean martial arts are based on it.  Even TKD (the name) is fairly new, around 50 years old, it was based on the old schools which did have ties with the ancient hwa rang.  Archery also played a big part in the Korean martial arts believe it or not until the last 100 years or so.  It isn't a well-known idea, but yes, martial artists back then did train with arrows.  The ancient Koreans were known for their accuracy, speed, and versatility with bows and arrows and Korean modifications of the Chinese crossbow which was much more advanced than the crossbows used in Europe during the Middle Ages.


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## jkn75

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *Archery also played a big part in the Korean martial arts believe it or not until the last 100 years or so.  It isn't a well-known idea, but yes, martial artists back then did train with arrows.  The ancient Koreans were known for their accuracy, speed, and versatility with bows and arrows and Korean modifications of the Chinese crossbow which was much more advanced than the crossbows used in Europe during the Middle Ages. *



Thank you for pointing this out, people sometimes forget the depth of techniques and amount of weapons in Korean Martial Arts. There isn't a good resource for history as there is with Chinese and Japanese arts. 

Archery is actually coming back in Kuk Sool Won. They are now teaching it at the seminars. It is fun but very difficult to do the traditional draw. (Unfortunately, I have yet to shoot an arrow, the seminar i went to this summer didn't have it.)

:asian:


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## kenpo_jeff

My Kuk Sool instructor does teach archery at the black belt level. Whether or not you believe that HwarangDo is the "be all/end all" martial art that it claims, I just look at it as having a more complete curriculum. Kuk Sool, Hapkido type of schools are more advanced and complete curriculums (in general), while Taekwon-Do is really (IMHO) an art for beginners. I believe HwarangDo also has a beginning curriculum called TaeSooDo. In the end, it's just your interests, aspirations and what your instructor can offer you.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by kenpo_jeff _
> 
> *My Kuk Sool instructor does teach archery at the black belt level. Whether or not you believe that HwarangDo is the "be all/end all" martial art that it claims, I just look at it as having a more complete curriculum. Kuk Sool, Hapkido type of schools are more advanced and complete curriculums (in general), while Taekwon-Do is really (IMHO) an art for beginners. I believe HwarangDo also has a beginning curriculum called TaeSooDo. In the end, it's just your interests, aspirations and what your instructor can offer you. *


TKD being a beginner art my @ss.  It takes extensive training and I'm guessing your making your conclusions on McDojangs.


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## kenpo_jeff

Sorry you disagree with my beliefs. TKD is a striking art. There is very little exposure to falling, locking, or weapons. Therefore, it is not a comprehensive martial art.

And no, my experience is not with McDojangs. I have been studying traditional Taekwon-Do for the past 15 years. Is that enough to satisfy you? Once I was exposed to Kuk Sool and Kenpo it became very apparent what Taekwon-Do is. 

Just think about it. Gen. Choi's mission was to teach Taekwon-Do to the world. You cannot do that with an art that takes decades to master. It does not take decades to master the basics of Taekwon-Do. Even at the advanced ranks, maybe you try to perfect a double leg flying kick, so what. If you aren't going to use the techniques you are perfecting in an actual fight, then they are just techniques.

If your instructor is teaching you more than just the foundations found in Taekwon-Do, then good for you.


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## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by kenpo_jeff _
> 
> *Sorry you disagree with my beliefs. TKD is a striking art. There is very little exposure to falling, locking, or weapons. Therefore, it is not a comprehensive martial art.
> 
> And no, my experience is not with McDojangs. I have been studying traditional Taekwon-Do for the past 15 years. Is that enough to satisfy you? Once I was exposed to Kuk Sool and Kenpo it became very apparent what Taekwon-Do is.
> 
> Just think about it. Gen. Choi's mission was to teach Taekwon-Do to the world. You cannot do that with an art that takes decades to master. It does not take decades to master the basics of Taekwon-Do. Even at the advanced ranks, maybe you try to perfect a double leg flying kick, so what. If you aren't going to use the techniques you are perfecting in an actual fight, then they are just techniques.
> 
> If your instructor is teaching you more than just the foundations found in Taekwon-Do, then good for you. *


Ummm...

Falling and locking is one of the first things you learn from your instructor.  Yes, they are similiar to hapkido, but they are techniques in TKD.  When you get hit or taken down, it is imperative you know how to fall.

You are confusing mastering techniques with mastering THE technique.  Mastering one is that you have perfect technique but don't know how to apply it.  MASTERING it means you know how to apply it with perfect technique.  If you don't know how to apply the technique into an actual fight, then you are far from mastering it.


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## Dim Mak

Hwarango-do, "Flowing Youth" was the name of the youth movement during the Korean Silla Dynasty (668-918AD ).  They were "wandering knights" that helped unify the three Kingdoms of Korean(at that time) and ward off the invading Tang Chinese.

  Around the 7th Century A.D., the Hwarango movement fell by the wayside as the Koreans began to emphasize move intellectual things, such as art, philosophy, etc.

   The two oldest documents in Korea: The Samguk Yusa and Samguk Sagi, document the Hwarang-do as practicing a method of empty-handed self-defense in their training, called Subak - a foot-fighting art.

  It is very unlikely, that any link to the original teachings of the Hwarang-do have been lost over the past 1400 years, and especially the Japanese Occupation of Korea (1910-1946) erased any connection with the original teachings.

  Even Taekyon, a more-recent art in Korea, was mostly lost during the Japanese occupation.

  Taesoo do was simply an organization organized in 1961 under the Korean Amateur Athletic Association.  This was not an offshoot of the Hwarang-do group organizated by Dr. Lee.  It was another name of Korean martial arts during the 1950's and 60's in the same manner as Tang Soo Do, etc.

 R. McLain


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## arnisador

That's fascinating!


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## Buffy

I have 2 years of experience with Taekwondo and I currently started training in the art of Hwa Rang Do.

I thing it is the best ... not the best for self defense ... but the best for me.

The challenge is enormous! both physically and mentaly having to learn almost every technique posible


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## arnisador

Yes, Hwa Rang Do has a huge number of techniques.

Can you comment on its pronunciation? Is it something like "Fa Rang Do"? We've discussed this here before.


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## Buffy

I've heard 2 pronouces:
Ha Rang Do    and
Va Rang Do

It is (like all korean martial arts) writing as it is said - for a given langauge - hmm.

Let me simplify:

Nunchaku in Korean is Ssang Juel Bong or Ssang-chol bong. How is that pronounced? In english (or american) a J is pronounces Dj (or close enough - I'm from Denmark, so my english is a bit ... ) in Danish it is pronounced more like an english y in York.

As you all know Korean is writing in Han Gul or Chinese for that matter (or even a mix of the two).

But to sum it all up - sometimes i sounds like Ha Rang Do and other times it more like Va Rang Do.

I'll mail the higherst ranked HRD in Europe and return with an answer


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Buffy _
> 
> *I'll mail the higherst ranked HRD in Europe and return with an answer *



That'd be great, thanks.


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## Angus

What rank are you, Duffy?


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## Buffy

I've just begun - so it's White Belt (Mu Kub / 9. grad).

I have a test in the end of this month - hoping to graduate with flying colours  

But since I have 2 years of Taekwondo (TKD) pratice my coach says that once I know the techniques I can take the next test.

The first two belts are stances, pouncing, kicking, philosofy, beginners meditation ... the basics AND you have to learn have to train - which I already know.

NB! The belt / rankings is not like Taekwondo / Karate and the likes.
In TKD you automatic have the white belt - then you train for white with a yellow strip .... the white belt is given to you when you start.
In HRD you have to pass the white belt test to continue - it's more like school - to go from 5th grad to 6th grad you have to pass one or more tests - if you don't pass, you have to take that year again (in HRD train more) before continueing to the next level.


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## Buffy

I have just received the following from Instructor Jorgensen:
In danish:
"Hej Thomas 

"Ha" er tættest på, og lettest at sige for ikke-koreanere, men den helt 
rigtige udtale er "Hwa"  
Hvis du kikker på den nederste del af http://www.hwarangdo.dk/tegn.htm skriver 
man det med de koreanske tegn for H + (O+A = oa) "blød" WA). 
Det andet problem er så at "h" og "f" er den samme lyd for en koreaner, så man 
kan nogle gange høre koreanere udtale det som "farangdo". Men da det 
oprindeligt blev skrevet med kinesiske tegn er den "rigtige" udtale Hwarang Do 
som vi skriver det. Der er ikke noget der skal være let på koreansk "

In english (my lousy translation though):
"Hey Thomas
"Ha" is the closest and easiest to pronounce for non-koreans, but the exactly pronouce is "Hwa" 
If you look at the bottom part of http://www.hwarangdo.dk/tegn.htm you write the korean letter for H + (O+A = oa) "soft" WA).
Problem no. 2 is that "h" and "f" is the same sound for a korean. So you can hear a korean pronouce it as "farangdo". But since it originaly was writting in chinese the right way to pronouce it is Hwarang Do (as it is written).  Korean - not easy "


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## arnisador

Thanks, I _think_ that helps!


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## Hwarang

Ok, just doing a bit of cross-posting between the two Hwarang Do threads... this one on the Silla Hwarang organisation

Dim Mak:
"Around the 7th Century A.D., the Hwarango movement fell by the wayside as the Koreans began to emphasize move intellectual things, such as art, philosophy, etc."

You hear about the Hwarang much later than that, and the Hwarang were also famous for philosophy, learning, writing poetry etc.

"The two oldest documents in Korea: The Samguk Yusa and Samguk Sagi, document the Hwarang-do as practicing a method of empty-handed self-defense in their training, called Subak - a foot-fighting art."

No, there is no mention of Subak or any other unarmed MA in the Samguk Yusa at all, even though the Hwarang are mentioned often. Subak is mentioned in Sagi, but never in connection with the Hwarang. Actually there is NO mention of the Hwarang doing any unarmed combat anywhere, the ONLY connection is through Dr. Joo Bang Lee (Hwarang Do grandmaster).

"Taesoo do was simply an organization organized in 1961 under the Korean Amateur Athletic Association. This was not an offshoot of the Hwarang-do group organizated by Dr. Lee. It was another name of Korean martial arts during the 1950's and 60's in the same manner as Tang Soo Do, etc."

Same pronounciation and same spelling in western letters, but very different Chinese characters.
The Korean Taesoodo Association was formed in 1964 when Taekwondo was beeing united from the Kongsoodo, Tangsoodo etc associations, but already in 1965 the name was changed from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. The "Tae" character in this association was the same "Tae" as in Taekwondo (to stomp/trample).
The "Tae" character in the "Hwarangdo Taesoodo" means "great", the same character as in Taeguk Kwon/Taichi Chuan.

WaterCircleHarmony (Yu,Won,Hwa):
"There's a book out about TKD fitness i think and it introduces the Hwarang as blown out of proportion and nothing more than minstrels of the court. I'll get to work on that lead."

Hey - a book about TKD fitness... can't argue with that  
This story started in the 30ies when a Japanese amateur scholar, who was in Korea on other business during the Japanese occupation of Korea, wrote a paper on the Hwarang organisation. It was already rejected by the Japanese themselves (Mishima Shoei, 1943) and it only quoted today because Donn F. Draeger quoted it in his book "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Styles". Draeger had many Japanese friends and pretty much the entire chapter on Korea is wrong.

If you're intersted in more about the Hwarang organisation I collected this a while back: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm


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## arnisador

The March 2003 issue of Black Belt magazine has an article on the _dan bong_ (short stick) featuring Taejoon Lee, son of Joo Bang Lee.


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## MartialArtist

Hwarangdo is very old, and it's older than 2000 years.

If you study the history of Korea and its military, the hwarang was basically the code of the warrior.  Almost like the Bushido Code, but more so in the aspect of combat.  Technically, it's the way of the warrior from fighting to honor.

The ancient hwarang included archery and mounted archery, and the archery is still an important part of Korean culture to this date (sweeping Olympic medals more than once).

Modern?  Hwarang do is based on the ancient hwarang, but how much so, I really can't say.  But on aspects of fighting, fighting is fighting, and it will pretty much be the same (hand-to-hand) unless humans all of a sudden grow 4 tentacles.


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## progressivetactics

We had a poster from a different board a while back ago, who was a hwa rang instructor.  He said the Tae Soo was an expansion of the Hwa Rang Art, that Joo Bang Lee had decided to put out there, to make HwaRang look that much more difficult. Sort of like a college program----you had to graduate high school before you could join. It was a marketing idea as well as a basics program.  He wanted to concentrate on "higher level stuff" and didn't want to go through stances and blocks with every new beginner...So he created a simple tae soo program. It was more along the lines of a TKD program.

Hwa Rang warriors were fierce warriors of their day who were exactly like the bushido warriors except bushido warriors killed anyone/everyone for any reason.  Hwa rang did not. They killed only for necessity.

All korean arts, like most other arts, claim very old  (2000year) history.  It is not the requirements on paper that are that old, but the feelling, attitudes, commitments, ideals, wardrobe, philosophies, etc of the country that give it the age.  TSD, TKD, Tae Soo, Hapkido, all the korean arts claim 2000 years, some of that is because of the uniforms the koreans wear.  The Black (or blue) trimmed do-bahk is similar to a popular outwear the people would wear.  ALso, the Kuk Sool had a frilly, fringed, official "kings guard" outfit they wore, which lends itself to the uniform of today.


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## Hwarang

What board was that ?

>> the Tae Soo was an expansion of the Hwa Rang Art, <<

That is correct

>> that Joo Bang Lee had decided to put out there, to make HwaRang look that much more difficult. <<

That's stupid. Hwarang Do IS difficult, you don't need to teach another style to show that!

>> Sort of like a college program----you had to graduate high school before you could join. It was a marketing idea as well as a basics program. <<

Some styles chooses to simplify and make it easier to learn. Hwarang Do does not. But, because Hwarang Do IS difficult to learn if you don't have any previous experience, some Hwarang Do schools do require you start in Taesoodo before talking Hwarang Do.
Sort of like a college program----you have to graduate high school before you can join. 

>> He wanted to concentrate on "higher level stuff" and didn't want to go through stances and blocks with every new beginner...So he created a simple tae soo program.  <<

And yet, GM Joo Bang Lee also teaches Taesoodo ?

>> It was more along the lines of a TKD program.<<

Taesoo Do is much more hard style than Hwarang Do, but there are also lot's of soft movements, jointlocks, weapons. The forms are nothing like TKD forms. Basically the training is very different from TKD.

Please let me know if you have any questions.


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## Kodanjaclay

<<the Tae Soo was an expansion of the Hwa Rang Art>>

Actually, this statement is incorrect. TaeSooDo was the name of Taekwondo before it became Taekwondo. in fact, the KTA originally stood for Korea Taesoodo Association; however, the name was forcibly changed by Maj. Gen. Choi.

My objection to this is that Joo Bang Lee has taken a name from documented history and made it his own. When I asked the organization about this, they were extremely rude and attempted to insinuate that I did not know what I was talking about. When I cited Korean sources, they basically disappeared.

I don't trust anyone who pirates history... its kinda like when Gore claimed he created the internet. I spose he never heard of DARPA net.

LOL.


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## Hwarang

Just because it is written the same way in English does not make it the same words.
The "Tae" character in "Taekwondo Taesoodo" is the same as in Taekwondo (to stomp in the ground).
The "Tae" character in "Hwarang Do Taesoodo" is the same as in Tai Chi (great).
They are different words with very different meanings.

>> My objection to this is that Joo Bang Lee has taken a name from documented history and made it his own. <<

"Hwarang Do Taesoodo" was created in 1990,  "Taekwondo Taesoodo" was created in 1964 and used for a few months before the name was change to Korean Taekwondo Association.
Just because Taesoodo is written in English like the other word there is no reason why Joo Bang Lee shouldn't use it, is there?

>> When I asked the organization about this, they were extremely rude and attempted to insinuate that I did not know what I was talking about. When I cited Korean sources, they basically disappeared. <<

I've seen how much mail they recieve. But do post your sources here.  You might want to take a look at 
http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/History/history/map.htm and various pages om hwarangdo.com first though. You'll notice that the Chinese characters are different.

>> I don't trust anyone who pirates history... <<

Not the case.


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## Kodanjaclay

Sir,

If they have changed their hangul, then i stand corrected. The last time I checked they had not. The translation I had was provided courtesy of a friend in USA intelligence and who spent 13 years on the DMZ as a Korean Interpreter.

The Hwarangdo leadership has pirated names from history, including the actualy name of the art, which was not taught by any Korean monk. In fact, Grandmaster Lee himself admitted, or as close to admitted this fact as one can get, I'm thinking in a black belt magazine. Bear in mind, that virtually all modern Korean history is pirated. They tried, historical fact, to erase the occupation. They have gone so far as to claim that certain things that took place did not, as have the Japanese. This was in USAToday a couple of months back over a textbook issue in which history was clearly modified. History is always written and re-written in favor of whoever has the most control's matrix and agenda.

There is no need for me to cite my sources, as they are readily available. Further, much of this is considered common knowledge. If you yourself wish to begin researching, I have no problem giving you some guidance as to where I looked.

Warmest regards,


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## Hwarang

USA intelligence or not, it's still wrong, they have never changed the word. Even the (original) logo shows the "great - Tae" character thater than the "to stomp in the ground, Taekwondo - Tae" http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/logo2.gif

BTW, the confusion might come from only looking at the hangul which of course is pronounced the same, rather than the hanja (hangul = korean alphabet, hanja = Chinese characters, both are used in Korea). This is the reason why Chinese characters are almost always used together with the Korean alphabet.

>> The Hwarangdo leadership has pirated names from history, including the actualy name of the art, <<

Again the Do in the martial art Hwarang DO and the historical Hwarang DO are not the same. It's explained in details with both hanja and hangul here:  http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd1.htm

>> which was not taught by any Korean monk. In fact, Grandmaster Lee himself admitted, or as close to admitted this fact as one can get, I'm thinking in a black belt magazine.  <<

The articles are here: http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/00s.htm
Where does GM Lee say he did not learn from the monk?

>> Bear in mind, that virtually all modern Korean history is pirated. They tried, historical fact, to erase the occupation. They have gone so far as to claim that certain things that took place did not, as have the Japanese. <<

If we're talking martial arts I think it's the younger generations of masters and instructors who are hiding japanese influence. First generation masters, like GM Lee, have no problem explaining what is Japanese influence.

>> There is no need for me to cite my sources, as they are readily available. Further, much of this is considered common knowledge. If you yourself wish to begin researching, I have no problem giving you some guidance as to where I looked. <<

You are always welcome to post if you have questions or comments on Hwarang Do. I'm always happy to reply
:asian:


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## Kodanjaclay

Hwarang,

You are wrapped up in what your association teaches. In my short time in martial arts, I have learned not to do this; however, at this juncture, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. My intent is not to argue or to flame, just try and make sure that information passed is as accurate as possible. I would offer you this tidbit: Ask Joo Bang Lee, who Master Bae was.


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## Hwarang

Disagreement is fine. I'm actually going to LA in the end of the month, I'll ask GM Lee about GM Bae then.

>> You are wrapped up in what your association teaches. <<

What I know about Hwarang Do history is based on living two years in Korea, talking, and asking questions to many of the old masters, reading korean articles on Hwarang Do from the 60ies and 70ies, and of course most of the excisting original sources on the Silla Hwarang when I was in Korean studies.
You're still welcome to post your sources of knowledge on Hwarang Do.

When I link to hrd.com it's because I think it's stupid for me to write the same basic things over and over when it's already somewhere else. 
If there is something people disagrees with after reading those links, then we can move on. No?


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## Bob D.

Hwarang, Can I have the names of some of these Korean Masters you spoke to in Korea? I'd really like to know for research.


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## Bob D.

BTT


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## bujinclergy

Hi,
I can only express my experience of HRD and trying to train in the art in Korea.
I went to Korea after a short battle with overseas duty assignment offices in the US Army offices in Washington DC. I was originally assigned to Pyon Taek but when I got in country I was shipped off to the 19th Support Division in ChunChon in the northeastern sector. This was early in 1978.
Between the main compound in Seoul and speaking to people out and around in Ie Tae Won there was the steady and repeated answer to my question "Where can I find a Hwa Rang Do Dojang?"  the answer: "There is no such thing".
I had numerous instructors attempt to convince me to take TKD and Tang Soo Do but I was determined as I had read so much about it in the states.
When I arrived in Chun Chon the same answers. To the point Korean Nationals were teasing me. I did not live on post. I had command sponsorship and separate rations so I lived off post.
I was introduced to some Hapkido Instructors who were about 2 miles outside of base in Chun Chon. We were tested and visited by Ji Han Jae.
The training was friendly but just shy of gruesome. 3 hours every evening without fail and 1.5 on Sundays. I asked early on about Hwa Rang Do and my teacher said they were the same.
I asked for him to please explain and he said he would show me.
Those nights that I asked were very painful but only that. Heavier training and no words to answer other than "Hwarangdo-Hapkido Same"
Many months later I had a command transfer down to Seoul at the 121st Evac so I went to train on the Hapkido school on post.
I asked the head instructor in the very beginning about HRD and guess what he said... "HRD-HKD Same" and I got the same brutal workout.

It took quite a few years to figure out what was going on with the politics etc. Especially since before I went to Korea I had trained for a couple of years with Duk Soong Son in Tae Kwon Do in NYC. But in Korea people told me the never heard of him. (Guy is a TKD legend) 

When I came home from the service I noticed that all the people that claimed they were doing Hapkido was something different from what I had learned in Korea. (very different - not just little changes) There was one instructor on the north side of LI NY that taught Kook Sool Won which looked very similar to what I had practiced but I wasn't comfortable in the environment, (He offered me a Nidan even without papers because I had trained in Korea, he knew my lineage and I knew the language a little, with the assumption I would catch up to his curriculum)

I got weird from the whole experience so I changed to the Okinawan arts because they were traditional and local to where I lived. (Matsubayashi SR)

I don't believe for one nano-second that there is anything different from Old original Hapkido and Hwarangdo in it's early stages. For many years there was no admitting to founding the art in 1960 on any HRD literature. Actually I'm glad to see that now as I believe that the split from HKD and founding a new art is the truth. (Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu to Hapkido to KSW and HRD) 
What really got my shoulders shrugging was I had never looked at a Unique Publications HRD book till I got home from the service and guess what??? Those books look like all the stuff we did in class in Hapkido with regularity. Circular blocking, breathing, Ki, aerial rolls, and regular self defense techniques with a ton of kicks. The order of the books almost was the order of our classes.


:shrug: But I studied Hap-Ki-Do :shrug: 

I can only share my experience of living in Korea and doing my study and quest there...
and my pain for questioning it


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## miguksaram

Please understand that my calling HRD history a farce is in no way calling the art itself weak.  Bottomline is that the HRD history just doesn't synch up with Korean history in general.  Hwarang warriors, were disbanned, due to the fear of them taking over the thrown.  This came about becuase the King who disbanned the group was himself a hwarang warrior (I will check for the name of the king later if you would like).  Once disbanned, they never went into the hills to practice their art in secret.  They either became merchants, regular soldiers or bodygaurds.  Nothing mystical about it.  

Taesoodo is a entry level program for people who have no prior expierence in martial arts.  Those who have experience in the arts can start taking HRD directly.  So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them.  That is just my opinoin.

As far as my experience Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba who was under GM Lee but has since split away and evolved the art.


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## Bob D.

I would still love to know more about these "Old Korean Masters" of HRD in Korea???


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## miguksaram

Good luck in finding information on them.  I doubt very much you will find nothing past the Lee's.


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## Hwarang

>> I can only express my experience of HRD and trying to train in the art in Korea. <<

bujinclergy, your story rings a bell - are you the gentleman I wrote 5-6 years ago because he was promoting himself as a Hwarang Do master without any training in Hwarang Do?

Anyway, 
>> repeated answer to my question "Where can I find a Hwa Rang Do Dojang?" the answer: "There is no such thing".<<

Sorry to say you've been had. There were and is Hwarang Do in Korea.

>> I don't believe for one nano-second that there is anything different from Old original Hapkido and Hwarangdo <<

And this is based on the books and ??

miguksaram:
>> Please understand that my calling HRD history a farce is in no way calling the art itself weak. <<

At least that's something.

>> Bottomline is that the HRD history just doesn't synch up with Korean history in general. Hwarang warriors (...) <<

That's a very interesting enterpertation of the history. I have *never* seen any evidence of what you say, and since I'm working on an update to http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm, I would be very interested if you could post any sources.

>> Taesoodo is a entry level program for people who have no prior expierence in martial arts. Those who have experience in the arts can start taking HRD directly. So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them. <<

Do you know anything about Taesoodo? Have you meet anyone practicing Taesodo, trained with anyone, seen anything? Very curious since you seem to be saying that people who train Taesoodo don't know anything and are being exploited by the nieve Hwarang Do people to grab a few $.
(I don't have my dictionary here, so I'm not sure what nieve means, but I get the picture).

>> Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba <<

Enjoy your training.


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## Hwarang

>> I would still love to know more about these "Old Korean Masters" of HRD in Korea??? <<

If we're talking the first generations I can mention Grandmasters Joo Bang Lee (in the US) and Joo Sang Lee (in Korea), An Sang Duk (in Korea), Yoo Chan Kim (US), Park Yong Soo (Korea), and Kwon Lee (Korea). But since I lived in various Hwarang Dojangs for most of my two years in Korea I was fortunate to meet many great Hwarang Do people.

>> Good luck in finding information on them. I doubt very much you will find nothing past the Lee's. <<

Back in last millennium people could simply claim that Hwarang Do was created in America, and people would believe it. Now people can look at some of the old black and white photos from the 60ies online (http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/60s.html), or some of the 8mm videos (http://www.hwarangdo.com/videoclips.htm) and I think the discussion is pretty much over.

>> I would still love to know more about <<

I'll be pretty busy until next year, but I'll try to come back as often as possible.


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## miguksaram

> _Originally posted by Hwarang _
> *>> Do you know anything about Taesoodo? Have you meet anyone practicing Taesodo, trained with anyone, seen anything? Very curious since you seem to be saying that people who train Taesoodo don't know anything and are being exploited by the nieve Hwarang Do people to grab a few $.
> (I don't have my dictionary here, so I'm not sure what nieve means, but I get the picture).*



" * The martial art of Tae Soo Do® was created as the undergraduate program to Hwa Rang Do®. Since the Hwa Rang Do® curriculum is very advanced and complicated because there is so much learn, it was often difficult for an individual without previous martial skill training to progress through Hwa Rang Do®.* The Tae Soo Do® syllabus is designed to build a foundation of physical skills as well as proper attitude for the nonexperienced practitioner. This program helps the student understand the fundamentals, basic mechanics, and philosophies inherent in Hwa Rang Do®. 

Just paraphrasing what is written on your website.  Never said people who practice it are not any good, I just said that the program was designed for people with no martial art background.  To get pissy with me, get pissy with the person who wrote your website.  Never put words in my mouth.  People who know me, know that if I felt that it was crap, I would say so, I don't imply anything.  BTW...glad you all decided to seperate your definition of Tae Soo Do from the original meaning.





> *>> Currently I am a correspondence student under GM De Alba <<
> 
> Enjoy your training. *



I do sir.  GM De Alba has definetly evolved the art to a higher level.  Stop by his dojang and see for yourself. 

As for the history...I would recommend any Korean College History Text book.  That should be your start.  Or look up the many Korean history links on the web.  The site that I was getting informaiton from 6 years ago (http://koisnet.kois.go/kr/history/korean/I-chosun/pragmati.html) doesn't seem to be up anymore.  I also could reference my wife who I have discussed history with (oh who is Korean born and raised, with an associates in Korean History).  Add that with the fact that every time I've been to Korea, and asked about HRD, I received two basic answers, 1) Never heard of it  or 2) Oh you mean hapkido.  This was asking martial art instructors along with general people.  Good luck and research hard.  I would recommend starting with researching the different Kings of Korea and how they took over.


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## Mithios

My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that master Lee trained with the Hapkido founder Young Sool Choi and that Lee received master rank from him. and that Hwarang Do is hapkido with extra weapon's and different uniform's. I trained in hwarang do and the techniques are the same as Hapkido and in the same order. The extra weapon's training is cool. Anyway a quick question. why would master lee call his other system Tae Soo Do when it is documented fact that Tae Soo Do was the name for korean karate in the early to middle 60's before being changed to TaeKwon-Do in 65. Before Tae Soo Do it Was called Tang Soo Do!Anyway i would think lee would want an original name.  Mithios


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## Hwarang

>> Just paraphrasing what is written on your website. Never said people who practice it are not any good, I just said that the program was designed for people with no martial art background. <<

The quote means what it says on the website. Hwarang Do is very difficult to learn if you've never trained martial arts before. That does not make Taesoodo an "empty" system and I'm refering to "So for the nieve it is a great way to grab a few more dollars from them."

>> glad you all decided to seperate your definition of Tae Soo Do from the original meaning.<<

Not sure what you're saying, but guessing you're refering to The Korean Taesoodo Association from the 60ies? 
If you are, the definition has always been clear. Even the (original) "Hwarang Do Taesoodo" logo clearly shows the Chinese characters (http://www.hwarangdo.com/pics/logo2.gif). More on this below.

>> definetly evolved the art to a higher level. <<
Haha - you probably need to know something about Hwarang Do before you can say anything like that.

>> every time I've been to Korea, and asked about HRD, I received <<
Next time you go, please send me an email and I'll point you in the right direction.

>> Good luck and research hard. I would recommend starting with researching the different Kings of Korea and how they took over. <<

Thanks. Actually I'm "Magister in Korean Studies" from University of Copenhagen, which would be somewhere between an American ph.d. and m.a. I was mostly interested in the 3 Kingdoms Period, what area did your wife study? 
If you're interested in Hwarang history http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm are translations of the original sources, no intrepretation. But there is *no* support for your claim that "Hwarangdo history is farce", rather it synch up with Korean history very well.

Mithios:
>> Anyway a quick question. why would master lee call his other system Tae Soo Do when it is documented fact that Tae Soo Do was the name for korean karate  <<

I actually answered that question in this thread on 11-12-2002 03:45 PM  	
Quoting me:
"(it's the) same pronounciation and same spelling in western letters, but very different Chinese characters.
The Korean Taesoodo Association was formed in 1964 when Taekwondo was beeing united from the Kongsoodo, Tangsoodo etc associations, but already in 1965 the name was changed from Taesoodo to Taekwondo. The "Tae" character in this association was the same "Tae" as in Taekwondo (to stomp/trample).
The "Tae" character in the "Hwarangdo Taesoodo" means "great", the same character as in Taeguk Kwon/Taichi Chuan."

So Taesoodo is definitely an original name. Just because an obscure organisation briefly used a (different) name with the same English pronounciation 40 years ago we can't use the (different) name?  

>> My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that <<

You probably don't know it, but those 4 sentences are both very interesting, and at the same time tells me a lot about the history of your style. 
Anyway, you're welcome to start a new thread on HRD><HKD, and I'll post why Hwarang Do is not Hapkido. As mentioned above I'll be pretty busy until next year, but I'll try to come back as often as possible.


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## jkn75

> _Originally posted by Mithios _
> *My First Hapkido instructor, master Choi. Was training at the same time as Jo Bang lee and told me that master Lee trained with the Hapkido founder Young Sool Choi and that Lee received master rank from him. and that Hwarang Do is hapkido with extra weapon's and different uniform's. *


*

I think at different times the founders of the various modern Korean Arts all trained together at one point. It is very unclear what everyone's relationship was. 




I trained in hwarang do and the techniques are the same as Hapkido and in the same order. The extra weapon's training is cool. 

Click to expand...


I have heard these same things about Kuk Sool Won and Han Moo Do. I train in Kuk Sool Won and have known some Hapkido black belts who have said that the under black belt curricula are similar but at black belt they diverge. Does anyone have a similar experience with HwaRangDo and Hapkido as Mithios? Does anyone know if the black belt curriculum in Hwa Rang Do diverges at Black Belt from other arts?*


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## Mithios

Thank's for the info on the Tae Soo Do as developed by jo Bang Lee ! I did not know they were using different writing. Also I read the b.b. magazine article from 2000, and it say's the same thing my instructor told me. Hun Jae ji and Jo Bang Lee getting there rank at the same time from Young Sool Choi etc. I had thought master Lee was not admiting he trained in Hapkido. Oh well i was wrong.The good thing is if a person can't find a Hwa Rang Do dojang, they can train in HapKiDo or vice a versa. and still be able to keep up on the core techniques, joint lock's,control hold's, throw's etc. Thank's for the info,    Mithios


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by Mithios _
> *The good thing is if a person can't find a Hwa Rang Do dojang, they can train in HapKiDo or vice a versa. and still be able to keep up on the core techniques, joint lock's,control hold's, throw's etc. *



They may be similar, but they are definitely not the same.  For example, you would be missing out on a whole lot of weapons training.  I have seen Hapkido dojangs train in staff, what looks like an escrima stick, a smaller stick similar to the "pocket stick" used in some FMA schools, cane, belt, and kumdo sword (shinai for the kendoka out there).  There may be other weapons out there, but HWD studies quite a few more than that.  As the weapons work is taught as an extension of the unarmed work, there may be concepts that you would be missing.  Once at higher black sash levels, the HWD curriculum gets even more complex, bringing in some techniques from the Sulsa, and also incorporating healing arts such as acupuncture, moxibustion, and acupressure.  It is quite possible that there are Hapkido dojangs that do this too - I have just never seen one. 

Be careful.  Training in the "core techniques" of an art may be useful to someone who is going to be away from their art for a time, plans to return, and needs to keep fresh in the interim - however, any art really shouldn't be learned on an a la carte basis.  If that is done, you run the risk of passing an incomplete curriculum down to future practitioners, and therefore diluting the art.  This is part of the origin of the criticism often aimed at "sporting styles" like TKD or Judo - many people criticize them as arts that only contain competition techniques.  If you study the art with an instructor who approaches it in an a la carte fashion, that may be true.  However, if you take in the whole art, there is much more to it than that.


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## bujinclergy

.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I remember when Hwa Rang Do was the hot thing--the series of books by Joo Bang Lee and of course the Michael Echanis phenomenon (I do have the books). It's interesting to see what has become of it; Joo Sang Lee evidently retired from the martial arts leaving Joo Bang Lee with all of Hwa Rang Do. They have added an "undergraduate" art, Tae Soo Do, pre-black belt. Meanwhile a former student has a site with a warning to members of the official Hwa Rang Do organization and many tales told out of school.
> 
> Does anyone here practice this art? *



I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do."


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## glad2bhere

Dear Doc: 

".......I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do."........" 

Since you were there, maybe you could help to clarify something for me.  When you said that Choi "constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching" could you  distinguish something for me?  Was the displeasure directed at the content of what they were teaching, or towards the manner in which it was being taught?  I know this must seem like splitting hairs but I think its important because so many separate styles seem to have more to do with teaching priorities than actual curriculum.  When I look at techniques executed by early Hapkido people the ultimate performance is similar but the attendant moves are often very different.  Any help you can provide would be appreciated. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

> I remember when the Lee Brothers were black belts in Hap-Ki-Do under Sea Oh Choi. When Choi constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching, they changed the name and became "Masters." Not hearsay, I was there and remember it well. That mural on the wall in Huntington Park used to say "Hap Ki Do


What year was this? where?


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *When you said that Choi "constantly showed displeasure at what they were teaching" could you  distinguish something for me?  Was the displeasure directed at the content of what they were teaching, or towards the manner in which it was being taught?*



Bruce:

Are you asking whether the conflict was over the method by which the content itself was being taught, or whether it was a "personality conflict", either over teaching styles or some other, non teaching-related matter?


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## Doc

We're talking mid-sixties before Han came over. Choi expressed to us they were "doing things wrong" and expressed that we should show them what they were doing was "not good." He urged us to be "vigorous" (my word) in our interaction with those students in Huntington Park.

I'm afraid I cannot distinguish between their method of teaching, and what they were teaching as the source of Choi's displeasure. All I know is he was very adamant, and resulted in a split. I also should clarify I do not know whether they left or were asked to leave. I'll ask one of the students if he remembers when I see him.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by pknox _
> * For example, you would be missing out on a whole lot of weapons training.  I have seen Hapkido dojangs train in staff, what looks like an escrima stick, a smaller stick similar to the "pocket stick" used in some FMA schools, cane, belt, and kumdo sword (shinai for the kendoka out there). *



I remember the first time I ever saw a set of nuchauku. Choi showed them to us in class and demonstrated their effectiveness as a control tool and used them to throw.


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## pknox

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *I remember the first time I ever saw a set of nuchauku. Choi showed them to us in class and demonstrated their effectiveness as a control tool and used them to throw. *



Good point, and a very cool story!  However, it seems that for some reason, most Hapkido schools don't teach them.  That is a shame, especially if it is something familiar to the art, due to the lineage.  It really can be a rather useful weapon, especially in the way you described in your post.  I wonder why HRD decided to incorporate them, but so few Hapkido schools do?  Could it have been simply as a way to differentiate themselves, or actually a throwback to the more "traditional" Hapkido (through DRAJJ) curicculum?


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## glad2bhere

"......Are you asking whether the conflict was over the method by which the content itself was being taught, or whether it was a "personality conflict", either over teaching styles or some other, non teaching-related matter?....." 

Yes, pretty much.  When it comes to HwaRangdo, Kuk Sool Won, Sin Mu and a lot of other "versions" of early Choi material there is always much made of the similarities among the techniques. I agree that they seem to share general biomechanics, but there is often vairations among different ways of executing a specific technique. Its generally known that, though these originators of various "styles" worked around and about the same time, they couldn't seem to make a go of working together. If Choi found pleasure/displeasure with what his students were doing I would be interested to know what he was responding to. Was it their manner of teaching? Was it the order in which they introduced the material to their students? Was it the context in which they represented their skills? Was it their goals in teaching? For myself I never seem to get a straight answer out of sources about this time in history, but certainly there is enough evidence to suggest that everybody had their own idea of how things were to be done. Maybe too many cooks with their fingers in the soup, or maybe it was just too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Bob D.

Lee, Joo Sang started the Huntington Park school in 1968. Bob Duggan was one of the first to enroll there. He was studying at another school a few blocks away and  joined Joo Sang's "Hapkido" school almost right away (yes, it was called Hapkido at the time). He was there consistantly thru the four years at which time Lee Joo Bang came to America in 1972.
Doc, Joo Sang was affiliated with Choi thru thier superiors in Korea, but I don't think he was necessarily "under" him.  He was at least a 5th degree and possibly 6th.
Bob Duggan and Vicente Montenegro where both full time students at Huntington park all thru this time and they do not recall ever having Choi and his students visit for training. It may have happened, but Duggan says he never saw it.
 I would like to hear more of what you or your fellow students remember of that period.
Regards, Bob Donnelly


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