# Weapon origins



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2014)

Many of the weapons in the MA were not originally used as weapons but as tools for various purposes. The kama was a sickle for use out in the field. The bo staff was used for carrying buckets of water over the shoulder and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain to name a few examples. Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.


----------



## Transk53 (Aug 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Many of the weapons in the MA were not originally used as weapons but as tools for various purposes. The kama was a sickle for use out in the field. The bo staff was used for carrying buckets of water over the shoulder and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain to name a few examples. Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.



Tools of today? Where are you going with this?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

Power Drill-Fu....
Weedwackerjutsu...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain



The nunchaku wouldn't have been a good choice for threshing grain.  The user wouldn't have enough leverage for that purpose, which is why grain flails had significantly longer handles.  



> to name a few examples. Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.



This is an idea that would simply be a waste of time.  With the plethora of knowledge out there regarding traditional weapons instruction, why bother re-inventing the wheel?  If it's for learning how to make the weapons a natural extension of your own body, what could such instruction accomplish that good instruction in a traditional weapons system couldn't?  

Also, who would be your information sources, regarding the actual instruction of the improvised weapons?  

For that matter, are you actually going to have the tools in question on you during most of the hours of your day?  It's going to look very silly if you were walking around carrying around a large pipe wrench, when you could easily carry a lockback, folding knife that would be a far more effective melee weapon (and legal in most places).


----------



## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2014)

Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....

Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane.  Keeps everyone on their toes. lol


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Tools of today? Where are you going with this?



Im talking about stuff such as tire irons or the good old fashioned hammer that you can get at your local hardware store, one of my favorites.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....
> 
> Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane.  Keeps everyone on their toes. lol



I am not really into quoting myself but there is a line in this thread that I absolutely did not put there



Xue Sheng said:


> Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane.  Keeps everyone on their toes. lol



I did not put the above line in my post and I would REALLY like to know how it got there.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im talking about stuff such as tire irons or the good old fashioned hammer that you can get at your local hardware store, one of my favorites.



Especially if you can throw it across an international border, Thor.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 26, 2014)

Xue I believe I was responding to your post.  Hit the quote button and it went into your post.  

Sorry for any confusion!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue I believe I was responding to your post.  Hit the quote button and it went into your post.
> 
> Sorry for any confusion!



No worries, I was concerned someone hacked my account


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 26, 2014)

I would not throw a hammer, I would use it for hand to hand fighting.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Many of the weapons in the MA were not originally used as weapons but as tools for various purposes. The kama was a sickle for use out in the field. The bo staff was used for carrying buckets of water over the shoulder and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain to name a few examples. Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.



I'm skeptical of many of those claims.  Yes, a pole or staff can be used as a tool in various ways; it's about the only one I give any credence to the idea it was a tool "first."  Some knives, maybe... War axes and wood chopping axes aren't designed the same.  But a kama as a sickle?  Probably not, the blade is in an inefficient orientation for the purpose.  Maybe tonfa were really handles for mill stones...  but again, I'd be surprised because the length would be less than efficient.  I recall an article where someone tried to confirm the "origin" of nunchaku as rice flails, and pretty much got puzzled stares at best.  Sure, a few (like the oar or I saw Chinese horse bench form once...) were and remained tools -- but I think most things that are weapons were weapons.


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 26, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Power Drill-Fu....
> Weedwackerjutsu...
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


Bradnailer gunkata!


----------



## hoshin1600 (Aug 26, 2014)

i was under the impression the kama was the only one on the list that was a real tool.  i think it was used to cut small handfulls of grass or rice stocks or something.
as far as a hammer,, wonderfull weapon. one of my favorites. my personal favorite is a 22 ounce framing hammer with a waffle head. there is no asian traditional weapon equivilant. but there is a very rich history of war hammers thoughout history. very popular in old europe but the handle was much longer.  and as a tradesman i have a few close by me or on my hip most of the day.


----------



## Transk53 (Aug 27, 2014)

I reckon I would go for a good ole Ax or a Ray Mears type hammer.


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 27, 2014)

Oh dear...



PhotonGuy said:


> Many of the weapons in the MA were not originally used as weapons but as tools for various purposes.



No, a very small number of weapons, largely associated with Okinawan (Ryukyu) methodology, have apocryphal origin claims along these lines&#8230; but the majority of weapons were designed as, get this, weapons.



PhotonGuy said:


> The kama was a sickle for use out in the field. The bo staff was used for carrying buckets of water over the shoulder and the nunchucks I believe was used as a flail for grain to name a few examples.



Yeah&#8230; note the above mention of "apocryphal claims"&#8230; 



PhotonGuy said:


> Anyway, the tools of today can be used as weapons too. They should be incorporated into modern MA.



Hmm&#8230; that will really depend on the art itself. It's really got no place in a number of them&#8230; making blanket statements about what should or shouldn't be in systems is fraught with issues and can never be correct or accurate.

In other words, you're coming from an inaccurate understanding, with a lot of misconceptions, and are trying to apply that across the board where it's just not pragmatic, realistic, or appropriate. But, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and assuming that your single-definition way of expressing your ideas has lead to this particular statement, I'm guessing that you're actually meaning to say that, as a range of systems and weapons are thought to have their origins in more common, everyday items, rather than as purpose designed weapons (despite the fact that the majority of weapons are designed as weapons first and foremost), then perhaps modern self defence-oriented systems should look to other everyday items as potential tools for self defence as well&#8230; then&#8230; they do.

Systems such as MCMAP (and other military systems), Krav Maga etc teach the use of common-carry items in each of their contexts (using things like military shovels), there are a number of systems that have incorporated items such as Defensive Tactic Pens, kubotan, tomahawks, and more&#8230; and knives are possibly the most common form of weapon encountered in a martial art class across the board.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Aug 27, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I'm skeptical of many of those claims.  Yes, a pole or staff can be used as a tool in various ways; it's about the only one I give any credence to the idea it was a tool "first."  Some knives, maybe... War axes and wood chopping axes aren't designed the same.  But a kama as a sickle?  Probably not, the blade is in an inefficient orientation for the purpose.  Maybe tonfa were really handles for mill stones...  but again, I'd be surprised because the length would be less than efficient.  I recall an article where someone tried to confirm the "origin" of nunchaku as rice flails, and pretty much got puzzled stares at best.  Sure, a few (like the oar or I saw Chinese horse bench form once...) were and remained tools -- but I think most things that are weapons were weapons.



The original tools might've been modified to be better used as weapons, for instance the tonfa might've been shortened or the blade for the kama might've been changed. Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting. There are cases of weapons originating from tools that were designed for other purposes and then modified. The trident originated from the ordinary pitchfork.


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 27, 2014)

Stop believing myths and movies&#8230; please.


----------



## Transk53 (Aug 27, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The original tools might've been modified to be better used as weapons, for instance the tonfa might've been shortened or the blade for the kama might've been changed. Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting. There are cases of weapons originating from tools that were designed for other purposes and then modified. The trident originated from the ordinary pitchfork.



Well considering the humble pitch fork is a middle ages tool and the trident a mythical weapon, that assertion has to be incorrect.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 27, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> The original tools might've been modified to be better used as weapons, for instance the tonfa might've been shortened or the blade for the kama might've been changed. Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting. There are cases of weapons originating from tools that were designed for other purposes and then modified. The trident originated from the ordinary pitchfork.



You need to find someone (a professional) who can help you to understand the difference between myth and reality.

For example... you have not made a single statement here that has any basis in reality.
The trident was a fishing spear and a not-terribly-good polearm.


----------



## Transk53 (Aug 27, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> You need to find someone (a professional) who can help you to understand the difference between myth and reality.
> 
> For example... you have not made a single statement here that has any basis in reality.
> The trident was a fishing spear and a not-terribly-good polearm.



Wow, I did not know the trident was a fishing spear. Just thought that was Ray Harryhausen.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 27, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Wow, I did not know the trident was a fishing spear. Just thought that was Ray Harryhausen.



It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: *90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.

*The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them.


----------



## Transk53 (Aug 27, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.



The Retiarius. Would not have fancied being one of them.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 27, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Peasants didn't have swords so they used their tools for fighting.



Even though few peasants owned swords, that doesn't mean that they didn't have "military grade" weaponry available to them.  The main reason why they didn't own swords was due to the sheer cost of a sword.  

Back then, steel was expensive, and finding someone who could manufacture a sword for you was equally expensive.  For defensive purposes, peasants were still armed, simply with less expensive, but still quite effective, weaponry, such as spears (and yes, ones designed for combat).    

As Mr. Parker stated, I think that you would find it a worthwhile investment to visit your public library, and find some valid information on this subject.  It's a very interesting read, and well worth the time spent.  After all, the libraries are still free.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Aug 27, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: *90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.
> 
> *The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. *The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them*.



See Zhang Sanfeng and Bodhidharma...


----------



## Blindside (Aug 27, 2014)

Grenadier said:


> As Mr. Parker stated, I think that you would find it a worthwhile investment to visit your public library, and find some valid information on this subject.  It's a very interesting read, and well worth the time spent.  After all, the libraries are still free.



To be honest I don't think that what would be available at most libraries would be any more accurate than what is available online.  Just because someone managed to get something printed doesn't mean it is historically accurate.  You still need to vet said information and that is far easier to do online.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 27, 2014)

Blindside said:


> To be honest I don't think that what would be available at most libraries would be any more accurate than what is available online.  Just because someone managed to get something printed doesn't mean it is historically accurate.  You still need to vet said information and that is far easier to do online.



True, but many libraries have digital subscriptions to publications that would otherwise require a paid subscription to access.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm thinking we should put up a sticky post somewhere: *90% of the martial arts history that your instructor told you or that you read in books is bogus.
> 
> *The problem isn't with PhotonGuy being especially gullible. There are loads of books out by respected martial artists repeating the claim that the kobudo weapons originated as farmers tools. The problem is that most martial artists are not historians and for generations have been just repeating whatever their teacher told them.




So very true Tony!!!


----------



## jks9199 (Aug 27, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> It was, yes. That would be one reason why the (questionable) stories about gladiators armed with tridents typically have them also using a net. If you really had to kill someone with a trident, it would sure be better if they were tied up in a net first.



Gladiatorial fights really had a lot in common with professional wrestling today...  They had a "story" and different styles of fighters represented different elements of the storyline.  I can't remember all of how it broke down off the top of my head, but that was the idea.  The guys with tridents and spears symbolized one set of virtues and ideas, a guy with a straight sword or sword & buckler/small shield another.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 2, 2014)

I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools. But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.


----------



## Blindside (Sep 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools. But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.



I teach kali.  We teach the conceptual use of long and short thrusting, slashing, and impact weapons.  Once you have those concepts you don't have to teach the specifics of any one tool, you the apply the appropriate methods to whatever you have in your hand.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I *might've been wrong *about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts



You misspelled "am totally and completely incorrect" above. Hope this helps.



PhotonGuy said:


> but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools.



Ask the librarian to help you find the "non-fiction" section...



PhotonGuy said:


> But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.



Why? If you're studying a traditional martial art, you'll be learning the weapons appropriate to the traditions of that art. If you're interested in modern self defense techniques, then you should be training in modern weapons.
Improvised weapons don't need extensive training; they're not weapons. If you can use a hammer to pound in a nail, you pretty much know how to use one.


----------



## Chris Parker (Sep 3, 2014)

Oh dear lord&#8230; 

Post #16. Read it, please.



PhotonGuy said:


> I might've been wrong about the origin of the weapons used in the japanese martial arts



The stories are about Okinawan arts, not Japanese ones.



PhotonGuy said:


> but that's what lots of the books tell me about how they originated, from peasant's tools.



Some, but very few, and most of those stories are very, very lacking in any real historical credibility. But you've been told that by most of the posters in this thread already&#8230; 



PhotonGuy said:


> But aside from that what I am trying to get at is how to use everyday objects of today as weapons. Stuff you would get at a hardware store. For instance, incorporating the use of a hammer into martial arts.



Huh? You want us to tell you how to use everyday items as a weapon? Why? And, I have to point out, the idea of you asking "how" hasn't come up in the thread before this post&#8230; you were saying that it should be present (which, by itself, isn't correct, but completely dependent on the system and approach itself)&#8230; now you're asking how such items should be used?

Not about to answer that. Ask your teacher. If they think it's information you can handle, they might tell you.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Sep 3, 2014)

Blindside said:


> I teach kali.  We teach the conceptual use of long and short thrusting, slashing, and impact weapons.  Once you have those concepts you don't have to teach the specifics of any one tool, you the apply the appropriate methods to whatever you have in your hand.



Kali is good. I've trained in Kali and mostly what it focuses on is stick fighting. Sticks are good weapons to learn because they're easy to come by.


----------



## Instructor (Sep 3, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> Although I am pretty sure it strikes fear in the hearts of my neighbors as well as convince them I am certifiably insane...I swing around racks, hoes, shovels and all sorts of tools in my yard based on the MA weapons I already know, even throw small garden shovels like a knife to see if I can stick them in the ground... no need to make special forms....
> 
> Personally I think it never hurts to have neighbors think you are a little insane. Keeps everyone on their toes. lol



Check:matrix:


----------



## Blindside (Sep 3, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Kali is good. I've trained in Kali and mostly what it focuses on is stick fighting. Sticks are good weapons to learn because they're easy to come by.



In the last year I have done specific training modules on knife, empty hand, machete, spear, and tomahawk.  The sticks are a training tool, not necessarily a focus of the curriculum.


----------

