# Man that hurt....



## ikenpo (Aug 17, 2002)

Any folks out there with ongoing, standing injuries from the arts...misery loves company...

Mine is my shoulder...Doc "saw it on me" two yrs ago. I think it is some kind of small tear in my rotator cuff that has some mild and not so mild, bursitis at times. Some times I wake up sore as hell, but once I warm up it goes away. For a while (about a year and half) it didn't hurt at all, but now I've started doing a lot more work with the escrima sticks and those wide swinging movements and covering movements put stress directly on the area so I manage, maintain and love the art regardless. 

In the past I've had a serious thumb injury that my original instructor fixed with accupressure (very strange to hear the meridians "pop" as he applied pressure on them) and finally I had a seriously jammed big toe that happened on Jan 30, 1998 (and yes it hurt so bad I remember the tournament and day it happened) it has since healed. 

jb:asian: 

p.s. If anyone has had any should injuries like the one I spoke of I'd love to hear what your outcome was, if you had surgery, learned to deal, know some good healing linement(sp), etc...


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## Kalicombat (Aug 18, 2002)

Jason,
   I have had bad shoulders since high school football. Powerlifting hasnt helped matters much either. In the last year, I have virtually eliminated all my shoulder problems by using a device called the SHOULDER HORN. It looks like a set of handle bars off of a Harley. It wraps around your neck, and you put your arms in it. It stabilizes your arms so you can work the rotatr cuff muscles in their most efficient position. Basically most rotator cuff problems happen because of an imbalance in the shoulders between the internal rotation and external rotation  muscles. Most people never work their rear deltoids specifically during a workout, so the external rotation muscles are weaker then the front deltoids and internal rotation muscles, thus causing the imbalance. The Shoulder Horn targets the external rotator muscles, and believe me, it works. With in the first two weeks of using this device, my bench shot up 25 pounds, and most of my shoulder pain went away. It also helped my shoulder flexibility, and my speed. 

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist.


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## ikenpo (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> 
> *Jason,
> I have had bad shoulders since high school football. Powerlifting hasnt helped matters much either. In the last year, I have virtually eliminated all my shoulder problems by using a device called the SHOULDER HORN. It looks like a set of handle bars off of a Harley. It wraps around your neck, and you put your arms in it. It stabilizes your arms so you can work the rotatr cuff muscles in their most efficient position. Basically most rotator cuff problems happen because of an imbalance in the shoulders between the internal rotation and external rotation  muscles. Most people never work their rear deltoids specifically during a workout, so the external rotation muscles are weaker then the front deltoids and internal rotation muscles, thus causing the imbalance. The Shoulder Horn targets the external rotator muscles, and believe me, it works. With in the first two weeks of using this device, my bench shot up 25 pounds, and most of my shoulder pain went away. It also helped my shoulder flexibility, and my speed.
> ...



Well Gary,

As you know, you are one of my best friends in the art and I trust you implicitly. If you say it works I'll give it a try. The info I've read so far looks promising. I'll be in touch to let you know. Any update on our training date? Drop me an email...

jb:asian:


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## Kirk (Aug 18, 2002)

How'd you injure your shoulder in the first place?

I suffer from chronic recurrent synovitis of the right hip as a result
of a slipped subcapsular phemoral capital epiphisis :shrug:  ...
Basically there's a ball and socket joint in your hip .. the ball 
stayed in the socket, and the leg bone separated from the ball.

Every once in awhile, it'll send a shooting sharp pain down my
leg, when kicking.  So far, it hasn't resulted in long periods of
pain, Thank God!


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## ikenpo (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *How'd you injure your shoulder in the first place?
> 
> *



Woman's self-defense seminar July 29, 2000. While playing the ugly human, did a left flank shoulder grab with the right hand. No big deal, my previous instructor did a very simple move and I really felt it. He came over my arm, around and under in a locked wing motion. Just a little too much (seriously it didn't seem like it would hurt given the speed at which he did it). 

I know it was an accident so it wasn't any big deal, but it's stayed with me ever since and it hurt like a b*tch for that one instant then it was just sore. And like I said it didn't really hurt very much in 2001 or at the beginning of this year, but now I'm swinging more rattan so I'm really feeling it now.

Thanks for sharing your story...

jb:asian:


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## GouRonin (Aug 18, 2002)

I got my hand smashed by Jaybacca doing some Arnis and it swoll up like a grapefruit and I couldn't use it for days even. Afterwards it was sore as hell. Steve LaBounty gave me a link for some Dit Dat Jow that not only took away the bruising but also helped the healing great. I don't know what it would do for a torn rotator though. You might want to contact him and see what he says. He helped me out.

I have a sleep disorder called PNLMS. (Periodic Noctournal Limb Movement Syndrome) Which plays havoc with my sleep. Basically I get no R.E.M. sleep so while I can sleep for 12 hours I only get like 4 hours _"real"_ sleep. I can take drugs to put me out or I can just work myself to exhaustion. I prefer the later as I don't do drugs. (Well, that's not true, I can drink myself unconscious and I have a Dr's note that says it's ok. Ha ha ha! But come on. Who can afford that?) I like to look at it this way...how many people get to practice their jab in their sleep?


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *. . .
> 
> I have a sleep disorder called PNLMS. (Periodic Noctournal Limb Movement Syndrome) Which plays havoc with my sleep. Basically I get no R.E.M. sleep so while I can sleep for 12 hours I only get like 4 hours "real" sleep. I can take drugs to put me out or I can just work myself to exhaustion. I prefer the later as I don't do drugs. (Well, that's not true, I can drink myself unconscious and I have a Dr's note that says it's ok. Ha ha ha! But come on. Who can afford that?) I like to look at it this way...how many people get to practice their jab in their sleep? *




GouRonin,

I feel sorry for your wife, who has to sleep next you. She must have pad up just to go to bed, or she has or natural self defense down pat in her sleep also.  

BTW anytime you need help going to sleep, me and my canes are willing to help you out. :rofl: 

Rich


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## GouRonin (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *GouRonin,
> I feel sorry for your wife, who has to sleep next you. She must have pad up just to go to bed, or she has or natural self defense down pat in her sleep also.*



Well it's not bad if I work myself to exhaustion. Then I don't move much. If I haven't then I would usually go to sleep after my wife so that she's already asleep. After a few too many beers I'm ok too.

However, there have been funny times. Like when I woke up and couldn't find my alarm clock and I had punched it into the closet. Or the time I woke up and I had repeatedly jabbed the wall to the point I had to re-drywall it.

Once I must have hit my wife right in the nose. She says that she got up and watched me for half an hour and says that if I had even cracked a smile she was going to hit me in my sleep with a chair. Ha ha ha!

But it's not too bad. Usually she rolls over and hits me back. It makes me stop or roll over too. But she knows when I am not working out enough because I twitch more and I'm generally more grumpy than usual.



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *BTW anytime you need help going to sleep, me and my canes are willing to help you out.*



Awww... man, between you and Renegade I never have to worry again!


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## satans.barber (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I practice that one a lot, it's one of my favourite moves. I can see how it would cause injury if he went too far 

If you do it quick, and with force, it dislocates the shoulder entirely.

Ian.


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## WilliamTLear (Aug 18, 2002)

> When Bruce Lee stripped away the non-essential parts of his classical Wing Chun training and incorporated techniques and theories from other styles (for example from the Kenpo shown to him by his close friend Dan Inosanto) he created what is known as Jeet Kune Do (Way of the Intercepting Fist). Bruce was always quick to emphasize that JKD is not a style, but a concept.



Dear Satan,

I found this on your web page under Kenpo... Although I thought your web page was pretty interesting... Ed Parker and Bruce Lee traded ideas often from what I've been told.

Respectfully,
Billy Lear :asian:


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## Klondike93 (Aug 18, 2002)

My wife tells me I do this a lot too    For me though, the more I work out the worse it gets for me. The problem is I tend to think about sparring or doing techniques when I go to bed and end up doing a couple  

There was one time I was having a dream that I was about to get into a fight, so I just hauled off and flattened the guy in my dream. Then I hear this noise, "Oh my god, you punched me in the mouth"   Yup I had punched my wife in the mouth thinking I was hitting the guy in my dream :shrug:  

That's the only time I have done that, I usually just kick her :rofl: 


:asian:


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## GouRonin (Aug 18, 2002)

RLS is related to PNLMS. You might want to do some reading on these things as they are sleep disorders. While I am not one to use medication and I have found other ways to cope you might be interested to know of ways to deal with these issues if you have them.

http://www.sleepfoundation.org/publications/fact_plms.html

http://www.sleepmedservices.com/restlesslegs.html

http://www.newtechpub.com/phantom/snore/rls.htm


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## Nightingale (Aug 18, 2002)

If your shoulder is still bothering you, you need to see a doctor.  What you're describing doesn't sound like bursitis. Please go get it checked out.


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## ikenpo (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *If your shoulder is still bothering you, you need to see a doctor.  What you're describing doesn't sound like bursitis. Please go get it checked out. *



Hey,

What's my wife doing on the board?!?! :rofl: 


I plan to get it checked out soon. Thanks for the advice.


jb:asian:


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## Nightingale (Aug 18, 2002)

a good rules thumb....

if it hurts for more than a week, it probably isn't gonna heal on its own without outside intervention (anti-inflamitory drugs, immobilization, surgery, etc) 
... go see a doctor

if it hurts when you aren't moving it, it probably is fairly serious
... go see a doctor


A strain will typically mend itself in a couple of days, or at least show marked improvement. if it doesn't, its either a really bad strain, or it isn't a strain, and in either case, you need to go see a doctor.  

Sprains need to always be immobilized. you do more damage to yourself every time you move it... think of the injury as a frayed rope.  the more you use the rope, the more it frays. You need to stop., take the time to mend the rope, and then carry on. 

Please don't do the macho "live with the pain, train through the pain" thing. It can drastically shorten your martial arts (or any athletic) career.  Pain is your body sending a message to your brain that something isn't right.  That message needs to be listened to, because your body is telling you something for a reason.  There are some injuries that its okay to train with, and some that aren't.  Unless you're a doctor and capable of diagnosing yourself, you need to go see one every time something hurts for more than a couple of days (or it hurts really, really bad, or there's something really obviously wrong, like your femur sticking out through your thigh).  

Let your doctor decide if you're fit to train. That's their job.  Its your job to listen to them, so you can be back training at 100% as soon as possible.

Try to find a doctor that's board certified in sports medicine (call their office and ask them).  Mine used to be the official physician for the Rams when they were in anaheim.  She's a regular primary care physician, so my insurance covers everything. The book that you get with your insurance info should tell you what a doctor's board certs are, and if not, call their office and ask, because a doc who's used to dealing with athletes tends to have a more realistic perspective, and understand that you don't want to be out of class for even one day longer than necessary, and they also understand that you're not just John Doe who tripped over a sidewalk curb and dislocated his knee.  You're an athlete who needs to keep your body in top condition, so your course of treatment should sometimes be different.

best of luck.

And tell your wife that she's a smart woman, and you're very lucky to have her.


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## satans.barber (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *
> I found this on your web page under Kenpo... Although I thought your web page was pretty interesting... Ed Parker and Bruce Lee traded ideas often from what I've been told.
> ...



I never said he did or didn't did I? Are you meaning for me to add that in, or were you pointing out a mistake?

Ian.


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## Les (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *Yup I had punched my wife in the mouth thinking I was hitting the guy in my dream :shrug:
> 
> That's the only time I have done that, I usually just kick her :rofl:*



If I did that to my fiancee, I'd be afraid to sleep next to her again, because she would be waiting for me. :hammer: 

Les


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## headkick (Aug 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *Any folks out there with ongoing, standing injuries from the arts...misery loves company...
> 
> ...



I had shoulder problems.  it kept getting worse to the point I could not bench press at all and could do only about 10 pushups.  Anything requiring me to get my elbow close to level with my shoulder was simply not possible.  Diagnosis:  impingement tendonitis.  The acromiun (sic?) bone in my shoulders sits a bit posterior therefore the rotator cuff rubbed on it.  So, I had an arthroscopic acromiplasty.  While in there he found some torn cartilidge, so I had 3 holes instead of two.  Basically, they grind off some of the bone so it won't rub.  Also had to clean up that tendon that would have torn at some point in the future.  Bottom line:  Best thing I ever did.  I was back to 100% in about 8 weeks.  I was back in class in 2 weeks.  Orthopedic surgeons are our friends.

R


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## vincefuess (Aug 22, 2002)

The whiny old man Billy Crystal routine....

My knuckles are starting to deform from arthritis caused by breaking too many objects with them in my youth- all of my knuckles have been broken numerous times.  Boards, bricks, bottles, tiles, you name it....

My knees are shot from running in crappy shoes on pavement...  Not to mention the thousands of kicks they have thrown...

I have bursitis in my left elbow, from slamming it into just about everything...

There is an odd lump on my left arch from a non-treated fracture incurred in my black belt test. (Kicked a guys elbow)

I have a knob in the bridge of my nose from the knee of a damned good filipino fighter...

I'm gonna stop there- I'm getting depressed.  Where's my darvocet?


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## ikenpo (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *The whiny old man Billy Crystal routine....
> 
> ...



Thanks Vince,

I feel a much better about my little old shoulder... 


Take care, jb:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Aug 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Just seemed like a pretty significant omission to me.


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## Deathtrap101 (Aug 23, 2002)

Yea ive bin in martial arts for a whole year now and ive had my share of injuries, the only lasting one or two so far are my knee and the ball of my right foor.  Both from kicking accidents.

 I was doing some real nice and high side kicks and twice in teh alst few months it went a little to high and my groin didnt particularily like it and my leg i was standing on(left), went to the right and i went down and the left knee broke the fall on my concrete floor(carpet over i). The pain was off and on for quite a while and now only likes to come back once and a while when im trying to do the splits.

 The ball of my right foot hurts caus i was trying a roundhouse kick i was told about, where you use the ball of your foot, i dont think i did it right caus it realy hurt. Then i did it again when i did a bad side kick. the hurts coems off and on.

 IM much better at kicking now


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## satans.barber (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Deathtrap101 _
> i was trying a roundhouse kick i was told about, where you use the ball of your foot, i dont think i did it right caus it realy hurt.
> [/B]



That's called a 'hybrid' kick, and it's designed to go in under the guard and strike the solar plexus. You need to make sure you bend your toes right back and have the angle right, else you'll crumple them up and it'll hurt, which you may have done 

Works better if you're a little further around to the front of someone (or the kick shield or whatever), if you're facing them (or it) too side on then you won't be able to get your toes curled back enough to do it right.

Ian.


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## Les (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Hey, I never knew that.

For over 25 years I've been calling it a "roundhouse kick using the ball of the foot"

Live & learn.

Les


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## Nightingale (Aug 24, 2002)

I've always heard it called a "ball of the foot roundhouse kick" as well..... its nice to have a shorter name for it!


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## Klondike93 (Aug 24, 2002)

In my pre kenpo days, I was in TKD with the ITF, and using the ball of the foot for a round kick (they call them Turning kicks) was the only way they taught it. I never got a good reason why they didn't like to use the instep, but the funny thing is when you would spar you would use the instep, not the ball of the foot :shrug: 


:asian:


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## Les (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *In my pre kenpo days, I was in TKD with the ITF, and using the ball of the foot for a round kick (they call them Turning kicks) was the only way they taught it. I never got a good reason why they didn't like to use the instep, but the funny thing is when you would spar you would use the instep, not the ball of the foot :shrug:
> *



I'm in no way an expert on the thinking behind TKD, but logically, I would say that they train with the ball of the foot for the destruction aspect that is so predominant in their system, and use the instep when sparring for a 'faster but more gentle' effect.

One of my students holds a 2nd inTKD, I'll ask him about it.

Les


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## tonbo (Aug 24, 2002)

I have a healed-over cracked ring finger on my left hand from blocking a powerful kick years ago.  Stupid blue-belt me, at the time, trying to block a roundhouse kick (full force, of course), with an open-fingered knife hand (WHAT WAS I THINKING???).....

My shins are pretty banged up from blocking with them.  I have a couple of stress fractures that never seem to get better.  On a good day, I can see the "divots" in my bones.  Grosses my wife out....

Not to mention the consistent knocks to my melon, which haven't seemed to hurt me much....uh....mentally, anyway...

 

Peace--


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## Nightingale (Aug 25, 2002)

hehe... you know the only way to heal a stress fracture is....

STOP STRESSING THE BONE. lol

I had one that put me out of karate and dance for six weeks... got it in my foot from Irish dance...where the object of the dance seems to be slamming your foot as hard as possible into the wooden floor so you make as much noise as you can.  It healed up pretty well once I stayed off it long enough.


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## Chronuss (Sep 4, 2002)

I've also heard that the "ball of the foot round" is called a "traditional" round kick, the other with the instep is just a round kick.  because of TKD, I tend to throw a traditional almost all of the time without thinking about it, which I'm trying to get outta that habit.

I also have lotsa dings and dimples in my shin from doing shin checks against many-a round kick.  I've pretty much lost almost all feeling when I do it anymore...except against Seig...you don't feel his hits immediately, they penetrate and you feel it the day after.  guess I'm a dimpled Chad..


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## KenpoTess (Sep 4, 2002)

I have a boxers dent on the top of my left hand.. shattered it my first Kenpo class against a big 6'4" dude.. was back in class a few days later all casted.. I have oodles of bruises from overzealous sparring partners.. 3 jammed /broken fingers that healed finally but can't get any rings on them.. *blocking  a kick somehow I guess wrongly*  I have bursitis and a torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder that acts up once in awhile.. lately it's been behaving.. I've blown to 3rd degree.. both hamstrings.. 4 times each.. 
I've got a cage in my lumbar spine that I don't pay any attention to ..My meniscus in my right knee has been torn many a time.. I deal with it.. 
I've had a black eye.. and more 'boo boos than I care to talk about hahaa.. but hey It's part of the game and I would never trade it for anything 

I feel better now at 42 then any other time in my life


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## Seig (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


We always called the pointed toe round kick just a round kick and the one with the ball fo the foot the traditional round kick.


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## Seig (Sep 4, 2002)

I have a knee that was completely reconstructed about 7 years ago.  It seems to be doing better now than it has in the last 15 years.  I have a really messed up rotator cuff.  In that arm, I can pivot it a full 360 degrees (perfect circle) backwards without it "kicking" out.  I have some residual back injuries from a car accident back in 95.  I have broken hand bones numerous times, to the point if one breaks now, I simply set it and go.


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