# WC, five elements, bagua, & Yip Man



## wckf92 (Sep 11, 2016)

A pic from an article by Robert Chu in the most recent Wing Chun Illustrated magazine. I circled a sentence that seems strange, about Yip Man removing elements of the system. 
Anyone have any thoughts on it?
Thanks!







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## geezer (Sep 11, 2016)

I don't think that _anything_ about Yip Man's thinking "reflects the Red Guard period" at all. His thinking was a blend of traditional Chinese thinking, mixed with what the Maoists would have condemned as a bourgeois capitalist mindset. IMO his Western education at St. Stephen's College was probably a bigger influence on his pragmatic, even scientific and reductivist evolution of WC than anything coming from the mainland after the Communists took charge.


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## dudewingchun (Sep 12, 2016)

I have an Ip chun book which states the same thing. Ip Chun said he removed the 5 elements theory and made it simpler to learn. The book was authored by Ip Chun & Michael Tse.


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## wckf92 (Sep 12, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> I have an Ip chun book which states the same thing. Ip Chun said he removed the 5 elements theory and made it simpler to learn. The book was authored by Ip Chun & Michael Tse.



Do you know the title of the book?
Thx dudewingchun


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## Jens (Sep 12, 2016)

*"Lun Gai – From Where the Water Flows*

*Foshan Wing Chun, Hong Kong Wing Chun?*

On the development of Wing Chun in Hong Kong and the differences between Foshan and Hong Kong Chun as taught today.

Sifu Lun doesn’t know why the teaching of Yip Man was different in Hong Kong, he can only assume that Yip Man might have added or dropped some movements, he also might have allowed his students more freedom interpreting the movements, this would account for the differences of his followers.

He does, however, know that Yip Man only taught the Bagua steps in Foshan. During Sifu Lun’s four year’s training with Yip Man he always taught the conventional method of punching, before he left Foshan he told his students to use the Phoenix Eye punch, a method which Sifu Lun still favours today.

Even in Foshan there are people who claim to teach Yip Man’s method yet Sifu Lun doesn’t know how this can be. As long as Guo Fu and Lun Jie can remember Yip Man only had six students, four of which are now dead.

Sifu Lun’s method is very direct, the amount of power he generates over such a short distance is phenomenal. I was on the receiving end of many “Jerk Hands” techniques and his “Slap Block” made my whole body shake.

Although nearly 70 his hands are still very fast, on one occasion we were discussing how to apply force with the Phoenix Eye punch.

Our training area was on a rooftop and Master Lun proceeded to demonstrate the punch on a large metal water tank, his right hand flicked into the tank with a thud as he continued to explain the point.

The point was lost for a while as the centre of attention was the dent that had appeared in the water tank, “Sifu you’ve dented the tank”. He laughed loudly then continued the explanation. Since that day I have seen him train by punching trees and brick walls.

Master Lun is a very humble man, during training he apologized for any deficiencies in his teaching. He said that Guo Fu and himself were not educated men, in fact Sifu Lun has only had one year’s schooling. Both men have concentrated on developing and researching the direct fighting method as taught by Yip Man in Foshan.

*The Forms*

The Foshan method has the same number of forms similar to those taught in Hong Kong.

The first form is around the same length as the Hong Kong version but some of the angles are very different, all the other forms are longer with a greater variety of techniques.

Yip Man also didn’t teach the Single Sticking Hand or any other method apart from two handed Chi Sao."

Lun Gai – From Where the Water Flows


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## wckf92 (Sep 12, 2016)

Jens said:


> Sifu Lun doesn’t know why the teaching of Yip Man was different in Hong Kong, he can only assume that Yip Man might have added or dropped some movements



Thanks for this article Jens! 

Who is Lun Gai?

So, any idea which movements YM might have dropped or added? 

Do you know what years the Hong Kong teachings were vs the Foshan years?



Jens said:


> He does, however, know that Yip Man only taught the Bagua steps in Foshan.



What are the Bagua steps? 



Jens said:


> During Sifu Lun’s four year’s training with Yip Man he always taught the conventional method of punching, before he left Foshan he told his students to use the Phoenix Eye punch, a method which Sifu Lun still favours today.



Interesting. I think I've heard of Phoenix Eye punch...though don't much see its advantage or simply balling up your fist(?)



Jens said:


> Both men have concentrated on developing and researching the direct fighting method as taught by Yip Man in Foshan.



...the "direct fighting method"....what does he mean by this?



Jens said:


> *The Forms*
> 
> The first form is around the same length as the Hong Kong version but some of the angles are very different, all the other forms are longer with a greater variety of techniques.



I wonder which angles he is referring to as being different?

As for form length being different or being changed...I wonder if this is the period where Yip Man may have dropped the gwai ma we were discussing in the other thread.


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## Juany118 (Sep 12, 2016)

geezer said:


> I don't think that _anything_ about Yip Man's thinking "reflects the Red Guard period" at all. His thinking was a blend of traditional Chinese thinking, mixed with what the Maoists would have condemned as a bourgeois capitalist mindset. IMO his Western education at St. Stephen's College was probably a bigger influence on his pragmatic, even scientific and reductivist evolution of WC than anything coming from the mainland after the Communists took charge.



Yeah.  One of the reasons he ended up in HK was because he was a Officer of the Kuomintang (the political rivals beaten by the Communists during the Civil War.)


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## dudewingchun (Sep 12, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Do you know the title of the book?
> Thx dudewingchun



This is the one. Got it like 9 years ago when I first started. Got some interesting stories about Ip Man. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wing-Chun-Traditional-Chinese-Training/dp/0749916761


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## dudewingchun (Sep 12, 2016)

Jens said:


> *"Lun Gai – From Where the Water Flows*
> 
> *Foshan Wing Chun, Hong Kong Wing Chun?*
> 
> ...



Mark Hobbs who is a Sifu under Lun Kai did a Q&A for Alan Orrs book. Has some good info in there about what Ip taught Lun Kai. Seemed like he had a set method that he taught.


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## anerlich (Sep 13, 2016)

I'm kid of curious about the Ba Gua stepping too. I trained in Xingyi and Bagua for about five years, and the Bagua stepping I learned has almost nothing in common with my Wing Chun footwork.

Was this the circular or linear BaGua?

Five element theory is intrinsic to Xingyi. And TCM, etc..

I'm in two minds as to whether overreliance on it was actually a hindrance or help as regards fighting. You need some sort of framework, but you don't want that framework to become a prison. Though that's true of "Wing Chun structure" IMO as well, or at least the way some people talk about it.

The snippet in the Robert Chu interview talks about Yip Man discarding terminology WRT five elements and the BaGua (which as well as BaGuaZhang can just be the eight trigrams and their various concordances) rather than throwing out entire sets of techniques. Are we on this thread guilty of throwing out the baby with the bathwater?

I'm personally wary of swallowing everything that Hendrik, Robert and people like Sergio Idarola (sp?) say uncritically. They have agenda, and denigrating YM Wing Chun seems to fit those agenda sometimes. NB - I'm not saying they are liars, but that I am skeptical, from my POV with good reason.


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## wckf92 (Sep 13, 2016)

anerlich said:


> I'm kid of curious about the Ba Gua stepping too. I trained in Xingyi and Bagua for about five years, and the Bagua stepping I learned has almost nothing in common with my Wing Chun footwork.



My WC footwork / legwork contains a brief notion of cross-legged methods. I've always wondered why. Perhaps it is a remnant from this Bagua? I don't know much about Bagua or Xingyi but perhaps YM WC contained it and later he removed it? 



anerlich said:


> Was this the circular or linear BaGua?



Article doesn't specify. 



anerlich said:


> Five element theory is intrinsic to Xingyi. And TCM, etc..



Yeah I'm vaguely familiar with 5 element theory from books/vids etc but was never taught it specifically as part of a WC curriculum. 



anerlich said:


> I'm personally wary of swallowing everything that Hendrik, Robert and people like Sergio Idarola (sp?) say uncritically. They have agenda, and denigrating YM Wing Chun seems to fit those agenda sometimes. NB - I'm not saying they are liars, but that I am skeptical, from my POV with good reason.



I hear ya on that!


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## KPM (Sep 13, 2016)

_I'm kid of curious about the Ba Gua stepping too. I trained in Xingyi and Bagua for about five years, and the Bagua stepping I learned has almost nothing in common with my Wing Chun footwork._

---Remember, Ba Gua is called Ba Gua because it is based on the Trigrams.  The Trigram pattern itself is also called "Ba Gua."  I was told that what Ip Man dropped was stepping patterns that were based on or followed the Trigram pattern.  It wasn't that the footwork was taken from the Ba Gua style.  He dropped it because he decided it was overly complicated for the young hoodlums he was teaching that just wanted to go out and fight Bei Mo on the rooftops.  



_Five element theory is intrinsic to Xingyi. And TCM, etc.._

--Yes, and at one point Gary Lam revived the use of the 5 element theory in his Wing Chun.  I don't know if he still uses it as a teaching device or not. 


_ You need some sort of framework, but you don't want that framework to become a prison. Though that's true of "Wing Chun structure" IMO as well, or at least the way some people talk about it._

----I wouldn't call it a prison.  You depart from it when indicated.  I just think some people part from it far to easily and far too often.  If your swimming coach has taught you the best mechanics for the breast-stroke, doesn't it make sense to stick to that as closely as possible and not go throwing other elements into it when the heat is on during a race?


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## wckf92 (Sep 13, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Mark Hobbs who is a Sifu under Lun Kai did a Q&A for Alan Orrs book. Has some good info in there about what Ip taught Lun Kai. Seemed like he had a set method that he taught.



is it the book called 'the structure of wing chun kuen' or something like that?


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## yak sao (Sep 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> My WC footwork / legwork contains a brief notion of cross-legged methods. I've always wondered why. Perhaps it is a remnant from this Bagua?



 Our lineage as well has just a brief hint at the crossing step. In LT lineage it is catalogued in the wooden dummy although it may also be found in the tripodal dummy, I have not seen all of that.


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## wckf92 (Sep 13, 2016)

yak sao said:


> Our lineage as well has just a brief hint at the crossing step. In LT lineage it is catalogued in the wooden dummy although it may also be found in the tripodal dummy, I have not seen all of that.


Correct. Same with mine, both jongs

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## yak sao (Sep 13, 2016)

I personally like that YM westernized his approach to WC. As for material being removed, could it be that YM didn't so much take things out, but rather streamlined the curriculum taking out some of the redundancies?


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## KPM (Sep 13, 2016)

^^^^ I think "streamlined" is a good  word.  I don't know that there was much redundancy.  More likely things that he determined were simply unnecessary.


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## geezer (Sep 13, 2016)

yak sao said:


> Our lineage as well has just a brief hint at the crossing step. In LT lineage it is catalogued in the wooden dummy although it may also be found in the tripodal dummy, I have not seen all of that.



I don't see the crossing step in the WT wooden dummy as a vestige of something older ("bagua steps"), but as a practical, if  somewhat specialized movement in a particular context.


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## yak sao (Sep 13, 2016)

Maybe so.
A while back there was a thread concerning a fourth form that has fallen away. According to tradition, Leung Jan did away with that form because much of the information was  already contained within the wooden dummy,  etc.
I thought perhaps that ym was continuing in that tradition


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## KPM (Sep 13, 2016)

^^^^ Naw, the video of the supposed "4th form" on that thread was a load of crap obviously made up from a TWC form.  I'm not convinced there  was ever a "lost 4th form."


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## dudewingchun (Sep 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Naw, the video of the supposed "4th form" on that thread was a load of crap obviously made up from a TWC form.  I'm not convinced there  was ever a "lost 4th form."



That guy who did Lo Kwai Wing Chun said that im pretty sure,about the 4th form.


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## wckf92 (Sep 13, 2016)

yak sao said:


> I personally like that YM westernized his approach to WC. As for material being removed, could it be that YM didn't so much take things out, but rather streamlined the curriculum taking out some of the redundancies?



Perhaps...but based on what I've seen of other WC families, the cross leg/step doesn't appear to have that much redundancy(?). Until your post, I didn't know that LT WT had it also. Thx yak!


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## anerlich (Sep 13, 2016)

TWC has a cross step in a dummy kicking set and a different one in the pole form.


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## wckf92 (Sep 15, 2016)

anerlich said:


> TWC has a cross step in a dummy kicking set and a different one in the pole form.



Was just watching a video of a WSL guy doing his dummy form (Cliff Au-yueng?), saw a cross step there too.


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