# new form



## marlon (Oct 19, 2006)

I have a two part question...or maybe it is just two questions:  What does it take to create a viable lasting martial art form?  Why would one create a new form?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Inverse Falcon (Oct 20, 2006)

Speaking for Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro created his set of forms to chunk Kenpo techniques.  Humans are very efficient at this: when we read, we do not need to look at each individual letter to grasp the word and the meaning, the entire word is chunked and acts as its own symbol.  We can still subdivide compound words and suffixes and prefixes, however.  The point is that we're better at remembering chunked material, yet we are still capable of separating it into useful components as needed.  Personally, I would rather learn a double-digit number of forms containing many techniques than several hundred individual techniques.  

Ideally, new forms should be built upon the principles taught by those learned before.  In this way, forms extend and expand upon the basics and previous technique, granting sharper insight into their applications and purpose.

Of course, it helps if the form looks good and flows well.  Tie form and function together rather than elevating one above the other.  



Now, if I've misunderstood your question and you actually want to know about creating a whole new martial art altogether by combining strengths of other arts (such as Kajukenbo), or a set of principles and philosophies to act as a foundation and guide to one's own evolving and individual style (such as JKD), that's something else entirely.  Please clarify your questions.


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## HKphooey (Oct 20, 2006)

marlon said:


> I have a two part question...or maybe it is just two questions: What does it take to create a viable lasting martial art form? Why would one create a new form?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I think identifying a common "struggle" of your students would be the first step in creating a set or form.  If you see many students over the years having trouble with their balance, you make develop a form to work on this.  I have see many schools add their own kicking sets/forms to help teach the basic kicks.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2006)

marlon said:


> I have a two part question...or maybe it is just two questions: What does it take to create a viable lasting martial art form? Why would one create a new form?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I've often wondered why people would want to creat a new form, when chances are, there are already many existing forms in a system for people to work on.  If they're understood, there are many aspects in each form that enable the student to work on various things.

Sometimes I hear people say, "Well, if I dont create something, the studetns are going to get bored because they've already learned the material."  While this may be true, I have to wonder just how well the person really knows the fine points.  Sure, they may know the moves, but are they really in the best stance?  Can they come up with more than one application for each move?  

Just my .02. 

Mike


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## kosho (Oct 20, 2006)

Hi, 
     Hope this finds you well. As far as makeing new forms. I think as a student grows,  this is a good thing for each one to do. as the teacher  you look for  how the form was made and what not. I have everyone of my students as they get to a certain rank make a new form. I do not make any of the other students learn it. but  i have that student add it to there list of katas. If others like the kata then i will have that student teach the kata to others. I myself made a kata called circle of the leopard. in this kata parts of the 10 point blocking system is added.
 75% of the movements are cats stances. I have shown other Masters in other systems  and all seem to like it. I do teach this kata in my Own Dojo...  As far as students getting bored with there current katas. 
Have them look at there katas from a Naga point of view. all katas  even 1 pinion have throw teqs in them.  I like it when you go to a seminar  and a 2nd, or 3rd degree black is shown throwing arts in there first kata they learned 10 years ago..and they take the info back  and show there students and this kata just became new all over again...you can take 1 pinion  and  have it a controlling form also.  and  escaping  form...
so I think challeging the student to look out side of the box  is a great thing.... plus  as a teacher it helps you some times see things  also from a different look. I was teaching 1 pinion to a 18 year old  and  just could not get them to see the 270 degree spin. a 5 year old student came over and said ( sensei the elbow leads the way)  so i said  show me please  and the student showed me  what he was talking about... and right there I just learned yet another great way to teach that movement... I went over to the 18 year old  and showed him  the elbow leads the way  and he got it... Now  this little help came from a 5 yr old... If my EGO  was in the way I would never of learned this little teq:  of showing the spin in 1 pinion...
and I thanked the student  and alwas give him the credit for the teq: help... so you should never not lisen everyone can learn if you just lisen...
ok I'm Done, not sure if this helped???? my 2 cent's
steve
( never move back to move forward...)


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## Flying Crane (Oct 20, 2006)

marlon said:


> *What does it take to create a viable lasting martial art form?*
> 
> That may be for the later generations to decide.  If you create a new form and teach it to your students, and it continues to be passed on from generation to generation, then it is deemed viable and worth keeping.  I don't think you can determine that for yourself.  All you can do is create what seems right in your experience.
> 
> ...


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2006)

Any themed form is worth taking a look at. Future generations can either discuss its merrits or trash it for its faults.
Sean


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## marlon (Oct 22, 2006)

Inverse Falcon said:


> Speaking for Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro created his set of forms to chunk Kenpo techniques. Humans are very efficient at this: when we read, we do not need to look at each individual letter to grasp the word and the meaning, the entire word is chunked and acts as its own symbol. We can still subdivide compound words and suffixes and prefixes, however. The point is that we're better at remembering chunked material, yet we are still capable of separating it into useful components as needed. Personally, I would rather learn a double-digit number of forms containing many techniques than several hundred individual techniques.
> 
> Ideally, new forms should be built upon the principles taught by those learned before. In this way, forms extend and expand upon the basics and previous technique, granting sharper insight into their applications and purpose.
> 
> ...


 
I think you undrestood my question quite well.  I am not looking  to create a new form and i feel there is enough out there in the forms i have to teach me for a life time.  The question comes from me ordering my thoughts and teaching methods and questioning myself.  I am learning quite a bit from the material i have.  the chunking idea has come to mind once or twice...but i have made any forms.

Kosho, thanks by the way i can think of 4 different throws from one pinon right off the top of my head.  It is a great form

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## davemitchel (Oct 22, 2006)

Hi Marlon,

Here is an article I read this morning, which supplies one of the many possible answers to your question. It is also a good read 



> *Hard Reality:*
> 
> *How One Barroom Encounter Changed One Cop's Views On Fighting*
> 
> ...


http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=141


Sincerely
Dave


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## Flying Crane (Oct 22, 2006)

davemitchel said:


> Hi Marlon,
> 
> Here is an article I read this morning, which supplies one of the many possible answers to your question. It is also a good read
> 
> ...


 
Interesting article.  He described himself as 6ft 3 inches and 220 pounds.  In many cases a guy that size can get away with a "muscle" approach. 

I am 5ft 10 inches, 155 pounds.  I always knew I couldn't rely on my physical presence, size, or strength.  While I maintain a pretty high level of fitness and am fairly strong for my size (not a bodybuilder or anything, but not a scarecrow either) I always knew that so many people are a lot bigger and stronger.  That was something I could never count on to save my butt.

getting the heck out of the way, and using techniques that slip or redirect an attack always made sense to me.


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## kosho (Oct 23, 2006)

Hi,
    Marlon, I some times get off track with what the post was to start with, sorry. 
Are you going to N.J. this year? 
steve


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## Hand Sword (Oct 25, 2006)

marlon said:


> I have a two part question...or maybe it is just two questions: What does it take to create a viable lasting martial art form? Why would one create a new form?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 

The creation of your own system, and the succesful, long term marketing of it! LOL!


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## marlon (Nov 12, 2006)

kosho said:


> Hi,
> Marlon, I some times get off track with what the post was to start with, sorry.
> Are you going to N.J. this year?
> steve


 
I plan to be there.  Hoppefully we can get some training in together.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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