# Shaolin Kenpo Castro's not Villari



## Twin Fist

Does anyone here study this style? What is the general impression of it?


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## Twin Fist

wow, no one studies this kenpo or has an opinion of it?


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## JTKenpo

I have seen a few of the forms and tech. on dvd.  They seem to stress speed and triple strikes, atleast that was my first impression.  I have never seen much more then that.  The only other thing I know is that he was a student of Chow or Parker (I can't remember which at the moment) and his schools seem to all be on the west coast.  woof hows that for vague, sorry.

JT


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## MeatWad2

Sorry...I saw some of it on youtube...looks like Kenpo to me!


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## shima

Reviving this old thread, as I was doing training lineage and learned....

My instructor = Bill Grossman -> Rick Alemany -> Ralph Castro -> Ed Parker. 

So it would seem the style of Kenpo I study is most likely Shaolin Kenpo. It's not in the name anywhere, the school name is just Bill Grossman's School of Kenpo Karate. But based on the lineage, I'm assuming it's Shaolin Kenpo style. 

I just started 3 months ago at this school, loving it so far.


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## Twin Fist

Shima,
yeah, Prof Grossman is one of GGM Castro's blackbelts

are you learning a form yet?

I studied this style of kenpo a long time ago, and i always loved it.


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> Shima,
> yeah, Prof Grossman is one of GGM Castro's blackbelts
> 
> are you learning a form yet?
> 
> I studied this style of kenpo a long time ago, and i always loved it.



I know Lightning Ram, Mountain Meets River, Iron Fan, Eagle Flies Low and last night he taught me High River One since I want to start competing at tournaments again and he felt that Iron Fan + High River One was a more appropriate black belt competition form combination than my original suggestion of Iron Fan + Eagle Flies Low. 

I *love* the various forms we have, they are just so much more interesting and complex than most of the karate and tae kwon do forms I've studied previously.


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## Twin Fist

Thats what i loved, it was the first time i had seen a kata that you could practice teh attacks and the defense, and it made sense.

Even after 20 years, I still can get through lightning ram, maybe mountain meets river.

I LOVED iron fan


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> Thats what i loved, it was the first time i had seen a kata that you could practice teh attacks and the defense, and it made sense.
> 
> Even after 20 years, I still can get through lightning ram, maybe mountain meets river.
> 
> I LOVED iron fan



Yes yes yes! My favorite part of Kenpo is learning the attacks at the same time I learn the forms, it's just the best part... I don't have to wait til I get another black belt in this style before they'll teach me how to break down a form, even white belts learn it this way, which is *awesome*. 

And I too LOVE Iron Fan, I knew not matter what I wanted to do that one in competition... so I'm glad when he changed my competition idea around he replaced Eagle Flies Low with High River One and left Iron Fan in my combination  Iron Fan is just such a nice looking kata. 

I can't wait to learn the rest, but right now my head is ready to implode w/ having only learned the last 4 of my 5 kata's in the past 2 months... so trying really hard to keep them separate and correct in my head... I find myself practicing at home daily in addition to being at class 4 times a week.


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## Twin Fist

yeah, i spent a lot of nights in the "attack line" doing the attacks on the people doing the kata. 
In all my years and all the styles i have been in, never had that before or since.

lets see, when I was with Sifu Cataline, we did 1-60 count punching, 1-10 count kicking, 1-12 count kicking, 1-10 count blocking, sets 1-6, and the katas of course

I had jsut come from american kenpo, so it was a big shock to me.


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> lets see, when I was with Sifu Cataline, we did 1-60 count punching, 1-10 count kicking, 1-12 count kicking, 1-10 count blocking, sets 1-6, and the katas of course
> 
> I had jsut come from american kenpo, so it was a big shock to me.



I've never done American Kenpo, so I don't have that to compare it to, but it is still sooo vastly different from the Karate, Tae Kwon Do and Small Circle Jujitsu I've done previously. 

We do the same sets you listed above. I've also learned so far: sets 6-9, sets a,b,c,d, 1-12 count kicking, 1-66 count punching, 1-18 count blocking, 1-24 count block & double punch.


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## Inkspill

our club utilizes mat space at Professor Martin Castro's school a couple nights a week. I've attended a class and watched partial classes for a couple months now, I've seen/felt solid stuff and been impressed. His school is the only other place around this area that has solid Kenpo (there's quite a bit of crap around here).  I'm not sure how much of the art they practice is specifically Castro Shaolin Kenpo as multiple arts are practiced at the school.


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## Twin Fist

Shima,
it drives me nuts that there is no Castro's Kenpo in texas. That and kajukenbo are the only arts i have any real interest in anymore.

You got any you tube vids?


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> Shima,
> it drives me nuts that there is no Castro's Kenpo in texas. That and kajukenbo are the only arts i have any real interest in anymore.
> 
> You got any you tube vids?



This is the first place I've lived to have Kenpo schools aplenty... hadn't really noticed Kenpo school on Long Island or Northwest Indiana (the two places I lived previously). When I was researching various schools to try out here earlier this year, I friend suggested I look up Kenpo schools and I found not one but two really close to my house during the search... the other one never called me back to give me information and I fell in love with my current school after my first time visiting there. 

I've got a handful of iPhone videos that MP (Bill Grossman) has taken of me to help me practice / reference of myself loaded up on my smugmug site... uploading a few new ones right now, will post the link to view it in a few moments


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## shima

Ok I clearly need to get him to record me doing more of the forms.  Evidently the only one I have that I could find was me doing the first half of Iron Fan after he first taught it to me (and stumbling through it since I had just learned that part, haha) I can now currently do all of this form with much less stumbling! 

Actually what I really want to do is bring my 5D Mark II with one of my wide angle lens into class + my tripod and then get a whole bunch of nicer higher quality recordings of the forms... Their demo video they have is a few years old, so having some good quality videos would be nice and useful for that...

http://www.photography-by-cat.com/Martial-Arts/Grossmans-Kenpo


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## Twin Fist

loooooooooove the iron fan!! very nice


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> loooooooooove the iron fan!! very nice



Thanks! It's just the first half, I need to get the whole thing recorded at some point  I'm going to do that and then go straight into High River One for the tournament next month. So I've got one month to get that all perfected  I'll try to get a video of both together once I can remember High River One all the way through. (only learned High River One on Tuesday...)


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## Twin Fist

interesting how different the forms can be given that they use the same pattern of attacks


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> interesting how different the forms can be given that they use the same pattern of attacks



Yeah, it's one of the more fascinating parts of the art I think, that even though you always have the same set of 8 attacks, the forms can be vastly and dramatically different. I still can't get over just how many forms you have to learn in this style, it's practically double most of the previous styles I've learned.


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## Twin Fist

not only are there a LOT of forms, you have to learn both sides of the kata too, so it is actually double double


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> not only are there a LOT of forms, you have to learn both sides of the kata too, so it is actually double double



We haven't been reversing sides on any of the kata's yet thankfully... 

Just when I thought my head was super filled up with 5 katas in 4 months, I just learned a 6th form tonight! After spending half an hour as a class practicing High River One together, he decided we needed to do Swift Rapids (a form you don't normally need until 2nd degree black) so we practiced that for the other half hour. I'm really liking all these river forms, since they have a lot more kicks than the other forms we've been working on


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## Twin Fist

never learned past Iron fan, but i have seen them, very nice combinations for tourny competition. I am sure you will rock it. Loving the video so far


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## shima

Hmm, need to have him take a video of me doing my tournament forms... 

In other news, going for Orange in the style next Saturday (June 4th)


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## Twin Fist

very sweet, i am testing for orange in kajukembo this comming week too!


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> very sweet, i am testing for orange in kajukembo this comming week too!



Excellent!


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## Carol

That was my first time seeing some of Mr. Castro's Kenpo.  I enjoyed the vids a lot.  All the best for what lies ahead!  Same to you TF...good luck with your orange!  Although I spec you got it nailed already


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## Lightning Ram

Hi, just saw this thread and I don't comment on many here, just a lurker. Not a lot of Shaolin Kenpoist post on here, keep up the good work, I remember most of the forms, I was told some have changed abit over the years.   Also was able to do most of them both sides. I mostly train at home, not too many Kenpo Classes close by.

Clay


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## just2kicku

Twin Fist said:


> very sweet, i am testing for orange in kajukembo this comming week too!



Well John, did you pass? Lol, I think you did! Can't wait to drill you in the stomach!


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## Twin Fist

yeah, orange in kaju now....spending that year in school slowed me down, but i am back on track now.


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## shima

Congrats on the orange belt!

I'm working towards Purple Belt next, probably get that in a couple months, whenever the next test is. I already knew all my Purple belt curriculum when I tested for Orange, so now just making it look amazingly good and starting on other belt curriculum. 

Most recently my instructor has been working on getting me to have all of Galloping Horse memorized... I've gotten up to Move #27 of 32... so probably by the end of this week we'll finally finish getting through the whole kata... such a long form!  But it's really fun, I like it a lot.


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## Yondanchris

Lightning Ram said:


> Hi, just saw this thread and I don't comment on many here, just a lurker. Not a lot of Shaolin Kenpoist post on here, keep up the good work, I remember most of the forms, I was told some have changed abit over the years.   Also was able to do most of them both sides. I mostly train at home, not too many Kenpo Classes close by.
> 
> Clay



Not entirely true....SKK guy here...learning AK...there are a few others! 

Chris


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## John Bishop

Sandanchris said:


> Not entirely true....SKK guy here...learning AK...there are a few others!
> 
> Chris





Chris: They're talking about Ralph Castro's Shaolin Ke*n*po.  Aren't you from the Villari lineage Shaolin Ke*m*po?


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## tinker1

A bit of a ramble... please bear with me...

My Kenpo Instructor was (infamous) Master Jack Long - 

Years back I spoke with .. man I am drawing a blank.. this guy was the Senior Martial Artist of the bay area... everyone was junior to him, even Professor Castro.. maybe his name will come to me later.. wait... Al Novak?  YES.. this is him (I just looked him up) http://youtu.be/hMzwwuPYWnc

Anyway, Master Novak told me that Master Long trained for a time under Professor Castro.  He also told me that Master Long also trained under Master John Keehan (also infamous).

Anyway, I was just going to say that our forms were different from Professor Castro's.. 

These days I suppose it may surprise some here, but since I started training with Master Long when I was about 10 years old or so... and then met up with him when I was in my late 40's... and NEVER did I ask him about his lineage.  It just never occurred to me.

So I have no idea where what Master Long taught us came from.

I can say that Master Long abhorred weapons... never used them (except for one strange little thing he used that looking like TINY nun-chucks).. 

Anyway - aside from his really obvious personality and moral flaws, Master Long was / is an astounding Martial Artist.. so I just took what knowledge he was willing to give, and for me, that was enough.

By the way.. I think I remember Bill Grossman from tournaments back in the 80's in the SF bayarea.  I hope no one is offended by this question - but I'm trying to remember if the guy I remember is Bill Grossman.. does he have an artificial leg (lower leg I think).

Sorry for the rambling post.


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## shima

tinker1 said:


> By the way.. I think I remember Bill Grossman from tournaments back in the 80's in the SF bayarea.  I hope no one is offended by this question - but I'm trying to remember if the guy I remember is Bill Grossman.. does he have an artificial leg (lower leg I think).



No he doesn't. But yeah he was competing in the SF area in the 80's.... he has a bunch of his grand champion 5' tall trophies from that time period in the dojo. 

He just taught me Ripping Tiger last night, really enjoying that kata.


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## John Bishop

Actually, the Bill Grossman I know has a artificial leg.  In fact here's a website advertizing it: http://www.renewmaterials.com/reviews.php   Don't know any other Bill Grossman's in Shaolin Kenpo.


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## shima

John Bishop said:


> Actually, the Bill Grossman I know has a artificial leg.  In fact here's a website advertizing it: http://www.renewmaterials.com/reviews.php   Don't know any other Bill Grossman's in Shaolin Kenpo.



Huh interesting, he has never mentioned it and the way he moves, spars and walks I never would have guessed. Looks like I will be asking to see that later today when I go in!


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## MarkC

shima said:


> We haven't been reversing sides on any of the kata's yet thankfully...
> 
> Just when I thought my head was super filled up with 5 katas in 4 months, I just learned a 6th form tonight! After spending half an hour as a class practicing High River One together, he decided we needed to do Swift Rapids (a form you don't normally need until 2nd degree black) so we practiced that for the other half hour. I'm really liking all these river forms, since they have a lot more kicks than the other forms we've been working on



Seems like you're learning too many forms, too fast, in my opinion only.


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## Twin Fist

she is already a BB, so it isnt as bad as it sounds


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> she is already a BB, so it isnt as bad as it sounds



Yeah and honestly I prefer it at the brain overload speed. I would be really bored if they only taught me my current curriculum


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## MarkC

Twin Fist said:


> she is already a BB, so it isnt as bad as it sounds



Well, I've been a black belt for 24 years myself, and can learn forms pretty quickly myself, but I think the rate she's learning is a little fast and I wonder about the true understanding she's gaining of what she's learning. Many people just learn the movements, and often even fail to eecute the way they should, but still move on anyway.
No offense intended, just my thoughts based on my experience.


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## MarkC

shima said:


> Yeah and honestly I prefer it at the brain overload speed. I would be really bored if they only taught me my current curriculum


I would suggest you if you'd be bored, you haven't really learned what you think you have.
Again, no offense intended.


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## shima

MarkC said:


> Well, I've been a black belt for 24 years myself, and can learn forms pretty quickly myself, but I think the rate she's learning is a little fast and I wonder about the true understanding she's gaining of what she's learning. Many people just learn the movements, and often even fail to eecute the way they should, but still move on anyway.
> No offense intended, just my thoughts based on my experience.



I learn all the attacks at the same time as I learn the forms, so I know exactly how every move applies to hitting/blocking on a real person.

You're entitled to your own opinion and I'm entitled to mine. I've been a black belt for 7 years myself, and I disagree with your opinion that I'm learning too fast. I've always been a fast learner who crams knowledge in quickly. I did my Bachelors degree for example in only 3 years.


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## Twin Fist

Marc, in the castro kenpo system, the kata are learned as a two man exercise, attacker and defender, so the application is taught from the get go, not just the moves.  it is the only system i know of that does that, so you would normally be right.


Shima, 
if you were learning shito-ryu kata, i would agree with him


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## MarkC

I understand what you're both saying, but I'm not talking only about the application of the movements, I'm talking about the movements themselves. The stances, blocks, strikes, etc. 
The actual mechanics of the body. 
Again, my opinion, you are, of course, free to learn as many forms as fast as you and your instructor like.


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## James Kovacich

tinker1 said:


> A bit of a ramble... please bear with me...
> 
> My Kenpo Instructor was (infamous) Master Jack Long -
> 
> Years back I spoke with .. man I am drawing a blank.. this guy was the Senior Martial Artist of the bay area... everyone was junior to him, even Professor Castro.. maybe his name will come to me later.. wait... Al Novak? YES.. this is him (I just looked him up) http://youtu.be/hMzwwuPYWnc
> 
> Anyway, Master Novak told me that Master Long trained for a time under Professor Castro. He also told me that Master Long also trained under Master John Keehan (also infamous).
> 
> Anyway, I was just going to say that our forms were different from Professor Castro's..
> 
> These days I suppose it may surprise some here, but since I started training with Master Long when I was about 10 years old or so... and then met up with him when I was in my late 40's... and NEVER did I ask him about his lineage. It just never occurred to me.
> 
> So I have no idea where what Master Long taught us came from.
> 
> I can say that Master Long abhorred weapons... never used them (except for one strange little thing he used that looking like TINY nun-chucks)..
> 
> Anyway - aside from his really obvious personality and moral flaws, Master Long was / is an astounding Martial Artist.. so I just took what knowledge he was willing to give, and for me, that was enough.
> 
> By the way.. I think I remember Bill Grossman from tournaments back in the 80's in the SF bayarea. I hope no one is offended by this question - but I'm trying to remember if the guy I remember is Bill Grossman.. does he have an artificial leg (lower leg I think).
> 
> Sorry for the rambling post.


I remember Al Novak way back in the '70's at the judges tables at the SF Bay tournaments. I think his school was in the Niles District of Fremont.

It's hard for anyone to get credit for being "the senior" but he is definately "A" Bay Area MA pioneer.


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## tinker1

James Kovacich said:


> I remember Al Novak way back in the '70's at the judges tables at the SF Bay tournaments. I think his school was in the Niles District of Fremont.
> 
> It's hard for anyone to get credit for being "the senior" but he is definately "A" Bay Area MA pioneer.



Well... Master Novak was always center judge at any regional or national competition that was in the area.  Professor Castro would sit junior to him... as did everyone else.  For me, that alone is enough to tell me he was the senior guy.

edited to add:
Yes his school was in the Niles district near Fremont / Newark.  He had an old movie theater that his school took over.. it was a bit strange because the floor was sloped....


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## James Kovacich

tinker1 said:


> Well... Master Novak was always center judge at any regional or national competition that was in the area. Professor Castro would sit junior to him... as did everyone else. For me, that alone is enough to tell me he was the senior guy.
> 
> edited to add:
> Yes his school was in the Niles district near Fremont / Newark. He had an old movie theater that his school took over.. it was a bit strange because the floor was sloped....


Niles district isn't near Fremont, it's in Fremont. I don't remember Niles having a movie theater but it is possible that he had the old Charlie Chan silent movie location. Charlie Gaylord had an old roller skating rink in Irvington Dist., Fremont. Are you thinking of his school?


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## Yondanchris

John Bishop said:


> Chris: They're talking about Ralph Castro's Shaolin Ke*n*po.  Aren't you from the Villari lineage Shaolin Ke*m*po?



Yes that is true, my fault for not reading the entire thread!


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## shima

Went to my first tournament in 8 years (and first tournament where I did a kenpo form as well). Got 1st's in sparring and forms but not really because I had to do anything, I was the only one in my division for both. Got to compete for grand champion as a result, didn't win either. Had a lot of fun though! 

I did Iron Fan + Ripping Tiger for my competition form. Here's a video of my kata and sparring: 




Next tournament I'm able to go to won't be until September (I have a scheduling conflict with the August tournament coming up) but I'm planning to do Galloping Horse for that one since I'll have enough time to finish perfecting it. I only recently learned Galloping Horse so I didn't have enough time to get it tournament ready for this tournament.


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## Twin Fist

pick one kata combination and stick to it, remember darlin, kata is about performance, and that means rehersals. Your kata is fine, just remember to hold the position on every move that have a kiai. For *at least* one second, let the judges see that good stance, make them notice that power. rushing through it it all blends together, thats one disadvantage kenpo has in kata competition. at a tourny, flow can actually hurt your scores....lol

your fighting was nice, timing good, just nervous. great kata and fighting!


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## shima

I know it's all about practice and I want to do Galloping Horse for the long term in the tournament circuit, I just didn't have enough time to learn it before this tournament. There's nothing wrong w/ these two kata's I did, but I don't want to be doing forms that 70% of the kids all like to do in the underbelt divisions as well. Galloping Horse is a great black belt level competition form so I've been working on that since I started learning it a month or two ago. 

I agree the kicks and kya points need to be slowed down, watching myself after the fact I felt that part was a bit fast, but my instructors said my hand speed was great because they say that's a crucial part to kenpo (The fast hands) so they encouraged me to keep those portions fast but slow down the kicks/kya points.


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## Twin Fist

exactly right, lock out each kick, even if it is supposed to be a snap kick, for a fraction of a second to show off the position.ya galloping horse is an awesome kata for BB divisions.


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## shima

Twin Fist said:


> exactly right, lock out each kick, even if it is supposed to be a snap kick, for a fraction of a second to show off the position.ya galloping horse is an awesome kata for BB divisions.



Yeah and I need to lean backwards a lot more in my side kicks, got some feedback on that as well from my instructors and the judges. Hadn't even realized until I watched the video afterwards how upright I had been staying for my side kicks.


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## shima

Been quiet in this thread  

Anyhoo I tested for purple today. I've been working on perfecting galloping horse as well lately for when I compete again next year once the gold cup tournaments start up again. Keeping busy at the dojo, that's for sure  

What's everyone else up to?


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## Twin Fist

practicing my kajukenbo when i can, galloping horse? isnt that the LONG form for 5th black? its awesome thats for sure


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## shima

Yeah it's really long, 32 count form... I think we do it for 1st degree black belt. Due to my other black belts in different styles, I compete in black belt division, so they taught me that to do at tournaments and I've been working on perfecting it


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## shima

Haha, no one has posted in this thread in a long time... 

I'm testing for my 3rd degree brown in Shaolin Kenpo on June 22nd. I've learned a lot past that though since I was out of the country for the last brown/black test (I got married in December and we had our ceremony/honeymoon in South Africa). So although missing the test this past December, I've still continued to learn "what's next" and that's been great since to me it's not about the belt it's just about the knowledge and ability to defend yourself at the end of the day. Knowledge is power. A belt is just a pretty thing to show off to friends and family, but it's not the goal of training to me.  So I've currently learned up to almost all of the 1st degree brown material in the past year. It'll be great whenever I do finally test for those higher ranks since learning the material early is really giving me a chance to master it better than if I just learned it "well enough" to test. So yeah 3rd degree brown end of this month is coming up! I plan to test for 2nd degree brown in December (we only have brown/black tests twice a year)


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## Twin Fist

awesome....you videos show you are making great progress!!


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## marlon

shima said:


> Yeah and I need to lean backwards a lot more in my side kicks, got some feedback on that as well from my instructors and the judges. Hadn't even realized until I watched the video afterwards how upright I had been staying for my side kicks.




Interesting, we teach NOT to lean back with the side thrust kick. Upright and even leaning into the direction of the kick...


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## shima

Yeah we teach leaning away from the kick, versus my last school I would kick leaning slightly forward. At the end of the day, if it's effective then that's what matters, right?


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## Lightning Ram

Shima, I see you that I need a password to get to your forms videos, are you not allowing anyone to access it anymore?

Thanks,

Clay


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## InstWill

Muahahahaaah I am invading Your post Shima!  And I just want to say I watched your version of galloping horse and I love it!  Have you learned twisting horse yet?  I have that posted on my page if your interested.

William


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## shima

Still need to learn this, I moved away from South SF to Austin, TX at the beginning of 2016. I started teaching to just a few folks last year, but need to learn twisting horse on one of my trips back to SSF. Haven't been back as much as I wanted since we had our 2 kids the past 2-ish years  (son in June 2016, daughter in January 2018).


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## shima

InstWill said:


> Muahahahaaah I am invading Your post Shima!  And I just want to say I watched your version of galloping horse and I love it!  Have you learned twisting horse yet?  I have that posted on my page if your interested.
> 
> William



I've started learning twisting horse as of earlier this year. I've been flying back to SSF to train with Master Professor a few times this year and every time he teaches me a few more bits of it in between all our practice. I'm about halfway through the kata now.


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## BiLL Reed

Grandmaster Castro is more didecated.


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## BiLL Reed

Grandmaster Castro is more didecated to the art of kenpo


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## shima

BiLL Reed said:


> Grandmaster Castro is more didecated to the art of kenpo


I guess you missed the memo "Ralph Castro passed away in the early morning of Monday, February 25, 2019."

He will be missed. 

Also Will - I do know all of Twisting Horse now and have been practicing it regularly on my journey towards 2nd degree black belt.


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## shima

Haha last post was about a year ago in this thread  I opened my own storefront dojo in January of 2021 (was subletting elsewhere since 2017 to teach). Up to a little over 40 students so far. For my own personal kata learnings we've started on the "two" series, High River Two already learned, next up will be River Dam Two, Swift Rapids Two and High Mountain Two  
Tested for my 2nd degree this past June.


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