# Zero Tolerance gone awry....?



## Kurai (Apr 21, 2013)

[h=2]http://www.wowktv.com/story/22020264/8th-grade-student-arrested-over-gun-t-shirt[/h]
Wow.....  I'm curious to see where this goes.  IMHO, If the student wasn't breaking policy, then the teacher had a case of "Cartman Complex".  I can find any type of statement or rebuttal from the school in question.  Why?

Love to hear other people's thoughts.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

What if it was a shirt that anti-Zionist and even pro-Islam? Would you want that for the other children? The three R's didn't used to include a rifle.
Sean


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 21, 2013)

1st, what about freedom of expression?
2nd, since when did expressing support for protecting rights become offensive?
3rd, a majority of schools used to (as in up through the 60s and 70s) have gun clubs, and even gun ranges on-site. As to education not including guns....check what numerous presidents had to say about that bit.


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Welcome to America. The land of blowing everything out of puportion. We do nothing until things get bad. Then we overreact to things we shouldn't. Happened with bullying too.

This kid should have known what was going to happen. They suspended a young child for a "pop tart gun" that looked nothing like a gun.
But arresting him?
If this kid was really surprised... Well he should pay more attention to current events.
But in the more likely scenario that he is sacrificing much time and frustration to make a point and wake people up to the BS? Then good for him.

This whole thing is stupid. The shirt isn't dangerous. And I haven't heard any interviews by students disturbed or traumatized by the shirt, have you?


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 21, 2013)

Rights unused are forfeit.


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## jezr74 (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> What if it was a shirt that anti-Zionist and even pro-Islam? Would you want that for the other children? The three R's didn't used to include a rifle.
> Sean




I don't think Kurai was in support of the schools actions. Think he thought it was madness like the rest of us.


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Rights unused are forfeit.



Exactly. Which is why I applaud this youngster if he understood what was going to happen and decided to make an example of the BS in our society and just how far our rights have fallen.

I remember school after Columbine. They realized then that our right to free speech made restricting shirts with images and slogans not containing profanity or nudity was just not going to happen. So we were required to wear uniforms.

This kid shouldn't be suspended, and even if he COULD be.. ARRESTED!? That is BS and a violation of his freedom of speech. He did not assault anyone. He broke no law I am aware of. Suspension for arguing with his teacher I could see. But not being cuffed and taken to jail.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I don't think Kurai was in support of the schools actions. Think he thought it was madness like the rest of us.


The rest of you... I was in disagreement.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> Exactly. Which is why I applaud this youngster if he understood what was going to happen and decided to make an example of the BS in our society and just how far our rights have fallen.
> 
> I remember school after Columbine. They realized then that our right to free speech made restricting shirts with images and slogans not containing profanity or nudity was just not going to happen. So we were required to wear uniforms.
> 
> This kid shouldn't be suspended, and even if he COULD be.. ARRESTED!? That is BS and a violation of his freedom of speech. He did not assault anyone. He broke no law I am aware of. Suspension for arguing with his teacher I could see. But not being cuffed and taken to jail.


Until someone goes to jail, this isn't a freedom of speech issue.


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## jezr74 (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> The rest of you... I was in disagreement.



lol, oh. So you think the kid go what he deserved?


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> lol, oh. So you think the kid go what he deserved?


It's not about what he deserves. The school deserves to dictate what is and is not appropriate. They run it. ya know.


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## jezr74 (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> It's not about what he deserves. The school deserves to dictate what is and is not appropriate. They run it. ya know.



I agree he may be an antagonist, but think the arrest might go too far. Does that sort of thing go on someones permanent record?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> lol, oh. So you think the kid go what he deserved?


Everyone deserves a consequence. Why make him wait until he is 18, trying that **** at the workplace?
Sean


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> It's not about what he deserves. The school deserves to dictate what is and is not appropriate. They run it. ya know.



But the kid DID go to jail. I believe this to be completely a freedom of speech issue. Also note that I am all for a kid wearing a cross, or a shirt with scripture. Or a shirt with a Darwin fish instead of a Jesus fish. I also think wearing a shirt supporting Islam is fine. Or a shirt supporting an anti gun agenda. I fully support freedom of speech and expression.

It is only an issue if it was a shirt depicting people being shot, profanity or nudity etc.

Suspension for arguing with his teacher? Fine. But being arrested for this is NOT ok. It is overreaction, and stupidity. Agree with the results if you want, that's your right. At least until people think it shouldn't be apparently.

Edit: Also note that his choice of clothing did not violate any clear dress code rules. It was a decision on the spot, not following the rules that they had set forth themselves. If they wanted to edit the rules and notify students and parents so it didn't happen again I wouldn't be so outspoken about it.
As it has been handled now I would, if I were him, contact a lawyer. Which it appears that he has done.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> But the kid DID go to jail. I believe this to be completely a freedom of speech issue. Also note that I am all for a kid wearing a cross, or a shirt with scripture. Or a shirt with a Darwin fish instead of a Jesus fish. I also think wearing a shirt supporting Islam is fine. Or a shirt supporting an anti gun agenda. I fully support freedom of speech and expression.
> 
> It is only an issue if it was a shirt depicting people being shot, profanity or nudity etc.
> 
> Suspension for arguing with his teacher? Fine. But being arrested for this is NOT ok. It is overreaction, and stupidity. Agree with the results if you want, that's your right. At least until people think it shouldn't be apparently.


 If he went to jail over the argument with the teacher then, no it is not a freedom of speech issue. The cause of the argument is never the issue when you are on trial, it is always what you did as a result.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> As it has been handled now I would, if I were him, contact a lawyer. Which it appears that he has done.


We shall see.


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> If he went to jail over the argument with the teacher then, no it is not a freedom of speech issue. The cause of the argument is never the issue when you are on trial, it is always what you did as a result.
> Sean



The charges against him are BS. And if arguing with a teacher were an arrestable offense then half of my highschool, including myself, would have a record. Voicing your protest against an infringment upon your rights, considering the lack of a clear rules violation, is using freedom of speech. If he were sent to the front office and suspended then I agree the school bent the rules but acted within their bounds as a school. He COULD appeal to the school board etc. to overturn such a decision.

Being arrested for voicing his protest, which is a use of freedom of speech by the way, is definitely a freedom of speech issue. I don't see assault charges. I see no report or interview stating he threatened or assaulted his teacher in any way.
I see no interview or report of him disrupting the school, his class, or harming and / traumatizing his classmates. The teacher decided to stop class to focus on him and his shirt. This IS a freedom of speech issue my friend. Doesn't matter which way you spin it. Unless he assaulted someone, which the charges do not reflect, then he was arrested for speaking his mind and voicing his protest.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> The charges against him are BS. And if arguing with a teacher were an arrestable offense then half of my highschool, including myself, would have a record. Voicing your protest against an infringment upon your rights, considering the lack of a clear rules violation, is using freedom of speech. If he were sent to the front office and suspended then I agree the school bent the rules but acted within their bounds as a school. He COULD appeal to the school board etc. to overturn such a decision.
> 
> Being arrested for voicing his protest, which is a use of freedom of speech by the way, is definitely a freedom of speech issue. I don't see assault charges. I see no report or interview stating he threatened or assaulted his teacher in any way.
> I see no interview or report of him disrupting the school, his class, or harming and / traumatizing his classmates. The teacher decided to stop class to focus on him and his shirt. This IS a freedom of speech issue my friend. Doesn't matter which way you spin it. Unless he assaulted someone, which the charges do not reflect, then he was arrested for speaking his mind and voicing his protest.


How many years do you think this kid will get? Or are we just talking about a ride in the police car?


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> How many years do you think this kid will get? Or are we just talking about a ride in the police car?



If it goes on his record there are more important things than if he gets jail time. It could affect his chances of getting a job because of a record. He COULD possibly be unable to buy or possess a gun in the future due to his record. It doesn't matter if he gets time. Or community service. The point is the cuffs should never have been slapped on. He should never have been arrested.

I'm curious what the cop that had to arrest him believes. I'm also very curious what our resident LEOs have to say on this subject.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 21, 2013)

Drasken said:


> If it goes on his record there are more important things than if he gets jail time. It could affect his chances of getting a job because of a record. He COULD possibly be unable to buy or possess a gun in the future due to his record. It doesn't matter if he gets time. Or community service. The point is the cuffs should never have been slapped on. He should never have been arrested.
> 
> I'm curious what the cop that had to arrest him believes. I'm also very curious what our resident LEOs have to say on this subject.


It sounds to me like he was going to have trouble in the work place already. LOL I bet you dollars to donuts the charges against him were not about the shirt. They aren't stupid.


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> It sounds to me like he was going to have trouble in the work place already. LOL I bet you dollars to donuts the charges against him were not about the shirt. They aren't stupid.



Well the charges against him are obstruction and disrupting the educational process. So it seems to me that no charges of violence or anything he should be arrested for are present. I stand firm that a suspension would be within the bounds of logic. Arresting him however is not. Unless more information is made available, he was in many peoples' eyes wrongfully arrested.

As far as him having problems in the workplace... Well that is a lot of assumption on your part. I was, and still am, very outspoken. I argued with teachers about various things and was generally proven right. When I was wrong I admitted so. I was a good student, and rarely got into trouble despite my opinionated and outspoken nature. Judging from the fact the article points out an unblemished record, I would assume the same goes for him, unless more relevant info becomes available.
Funny that I, and many others like me, have no issue in the workplace.

I would like to point out that, as the article states, he was not in violation of dress code. Therefore he was breaking no rules. And an arrest for this is overkill on a massive scale.

So once again. Disagree if you want. That's your right, apparently unless the powers that be decide that you don't have that right either.


Edit: Also note that this is just the latest in a long line of stupid decisions. Students suspended for a killer pop tart that apparently looks like a gun. Which in my opinion looks nothing like a gun. Or the kids suspended after disarming another student on the bus after he pulled a loaded gun and made threats.
This country has gone completely off the rails insane. And it's getting worse, not better.


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## Carol (Apr 21, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I agree he may be an antagonist, but think the arrest might go too far. Does that sort of thing go on someones permanent record?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD



Yes.  How visible it will be after he turns 18 will depend on how his particular state -=handles juvenile arrests and convictions if they occur.  Because the military, some colleges, and some financial aid organizations also inquire about a student's criminal history, this may have an impact on what he chooses to move on to after high school -- esp. if he is convicted (including a plea bargain).


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## jezr74 (Apr 21, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> It sounds to me like he was going to have trouble in the work place already. LOL I bet you dollars to donuts the charges against him were not about the shirt. They aren't stupid.




I agree, there looks to be a gap in the article...


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 21, 2013)

So, probable end result is settlement, costing the tax payers a ew hundred thousand bucks because some pinhead powertripped and some cop decided to exert his 'awthawaty' and put a punk kid in his place by working up a disrespect of cop charge.
Got it.

And people wonder why kids are more and more likely to hold cops, teachers and whatnot in contempt these days.


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## Drasken (Apr 21, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, probable end result is settlement, costing the tax payers a ew hundred thousand bucks because some pinhead powertripped and some cop decided to exert his 'awthawaty' and put a punk kid in his place by working up a disrespect of cop charge.
> Got it.
> 
> And people wonder why kids are more and more likely to hold cops, teachers and whatnot in contempt these days.



Exactly. If the teacher and other faculty claimed the shirt to be in bad taste following recent events and forced him to change shirts or sent him home for the day after arguing and also sent a note home to notify parents and students of a rule change to include depictions of guns as unacceptable on clothing... Well we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But it was handled wrong. The kid should never have been arrested in the first place. Suspension is MORE than enough punishment. But for some reason kids now are being arrested for things that they shouldn't be.
We seem to be rapidly becoming more of a police state. And people wonder why many are feeling more and more helpless and psychos are acting on these feelings.

It's all tied together, and nobody wants to recognize that the reactions are just making the problems worse.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 21, 2013)

But, if only we'd all realize guns are evil and turn them in, then the world would be peace and lolipops, and anyone not happy can goto "happiness camp".


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## DennisBreene (Apr 22, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So, probable end result is settlement, costing the tax payers a ew hundred thousand bucks because some pinhead powertripped and some cop decided to exert his 'awthawaty' and put a punk kid in his place by working up a disrespect of cop charge.
> Got it.
> 
> And people wonder why kids are more and more likely to hold cops, teachers and whatnot in contempt these days.



It is in the nature of adolescents to test and rebel. It used to be that school was a gateway to allowing students to test their ideas against those of others through debate and discussion.  Now it seems that normal limit testing and debate about ideas are curtailed as "not in the interest of the general welfare". A nice euphamism for censorship. And this young man gets his first amendment rights violated as well as others possibly.  How many other venues do young people have to test their ideas against the backdrop of reasoned debate with mature adults moderating and guiding the discussion. So you create one more dissafected young person who feels dissenfranchised and demonstrate to his peers that their stake in adult society is of no importance. And we wonder why some, less stable individuals, opt to act out in extreme and violent ways.  A great solution. Let our young people step off the cliff into the larger adult society with no guidence and then blame them when they don't have the skills to cope. Because they sure won't learn them on the internet, or playing violent video games.


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## Kurai (Apr 22, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> What if it was a shirt that anti-Zionist and even pro-Islam? Would you want that for the other children? The three R's didn't used to include a rifle.
> Sean


Leaving the rifle out of it, you gave me a great example.....   An anti-Zionist shirt is one I'd have issue with because it disparages someone's religion.  However, it if were not against school policy, for me, the scenario is no different.  As would be a Pro-Islam shirt.  Islam, Christianity, (insert religion here), are not usually bad, in and of themselves.  It is radicals in any affiliation that damage their religions tenet and preachings.  I would not be bothered by a Pro-Islam, Pro-Buddhist, Pro-Catholic, Pro-Atheist, Pro-Wicca, Pro-FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster), etc., and if it doesn't violate school policy, enough said.  

Bob and several other have mentioned that the student was not in violation of school policy.  Since the shirt was not in violation of school policy, some teacher's "Cartman Complex" is going to cost the taxpayers.  I've still been unable to find any response from the school district about the situation.  Their position likely won't be very defensible.  Last I knew, "Respect, My, Authoritah!", didn't trump the constitution.

As Bob said, "Rights unused are forfeit."  I use my rights at every opportunity.  This kid was too.  More power to him and his dad.

The student, was NOT in violation of school policy.  Someone doesn't like it, they need to take steps to change said policy.


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## Kurai (Apr 22, 2013)

jezr74 said:


> I don't think Kurai was in support of the schools actions. Think he thought it was madness like the rest of us.



I most definitely think it to be madness.


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## Drasken (Apr 22, 2013)

It's also worth mentioning that apparently he had gone through several class periods without incident before it became an issue, at least that is what was reported. So I am curious how he actually disrupted anything with this shirt.


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## jezr74 (Apr 22, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> But, if only we'd all realize guns are evil and turn them in, then the world would be peace and lolipops, and anyone not happy can goto "happiness camp".



Finally, you have come over to the dark side.


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## granfire (Apr 22, 2013)

Drasken said:


> It's also worth mentioning that apparently he had gone through several class periods without incident before it became an issue, at least that is what was reported. So I am curious how he actually disrupted anything with this shirt.



He gave a teacher the vapors....OMG, a gun on the shirt, likely to go off anytime. 

That crap in schools has really crossed over into the ridiculous a long time ago.

Girls sharing Midol (and if you ever had a period, you know what a blessing that can be!), the little girl telling the teacher that she accidentally took mom's lunch pail, with the steak knife, naturally the kids with the hair cuts....


But the super short cheerleader skirts are not a problem... :duh:


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 22, 2013)

Kurai said:


> Leaving the rifle out of it, you gave me a great example.....   An anti-Zionist shirt is one I'd have issue with because it disparages someone's religion.  However, it if were not against school policy, for me, the scenario is no different.  As would be a Pro-Islam shirt.  Islam, Christianity, (insert religion here), are not usually bad, in and of themselves.  It is radicals in any affiliation that damage their religions tenet and preachings.  I would not be bothered by a Pro-Islam, Pro-Buddhist, Pro-Catholic, Pro-Atheist, Pro-Wicca, Pro-FSM (Flying Spaghetti Monster), etc., and if it doesn't violate school policy, enough said.
> 
> Bob and several other have mentioned that the student was not in violation of school policy.  Since the shirt was not in violation of school policy, some teacher's "Cartman Complex" is going to cost the taxpayers.  I've still been unable to find any response from the school district about the situation.  Their position likely won't be very defensible.  Last I knew, "Respect, My, Authoritah!", didn't trump the constitution.
> 
> ...


Being that there are Jewish anti-Zionists I don't see this as dis on a religion. It's a claim to land.


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## Big Don (Apr 22, 2013)

Zero Tolerance = Zero Thinking


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 22, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Zero Tolerance = Zero Thinking


So what is your point?


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## Big Don (Apr 23, 2013)

Touch Of Death said:


> So what is your point?



You can't require me to have a point


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## Sukerkin (Apr 23, 2013)

:splutters:  {cleans tea from screen and keyboard}.


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## Tgace (Apr 27, 2013)




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