# What Did The UFC Really Prove?



## Littledragon

Ever since the Ultimate Fighting Championship bursted on the scene in 1993 it shocked the martial arts and combat workd forever. It gave the impression and message to all martial artists that your style either works or doesn't work. When Rorian Gracie created the UFC not only did he have in mind on who is the Ultimate Fighter but what was the ultimate style? After the victory of Royce Gracie in UFC 1,2 and 4 the message that was sent to every martial artist during that time was that a real fight ends up on the ground and you better know what to do once you are there. But when looking at the UFC has there realy been a master martial artist that stood out and gave once of the fighters a real challenge? Did the UFC really establish an "Ultimate Fighter". Through out my years of watching every single UFC tape there was I have yet to seen a master martial artist that really stood out. I have never seen an Aikido grandmaster comopete or a World Karate champion grand master compete or even a Korean Tae Kwon Do master in the UFC. So can the winner of the tournament really be decalred the Ultimate Fighter? I think the UFC is great but it is not "IT" If you win it it does not mean you are the best. What did the UFC really prove besides that you need grappling as a solid basis in a fight? Did it really prove what style was superior over another? No because you never got those REAL Martial Art masters to compete instead you got a truck driver Dave 'Tank" Abbot. What I am saying is that if a real martial art master would compete the out come would have been dramitically different. If you were to see a korean tae kwon do master fight a grappler opinions would change. So the UFC never really proved the winner to be the best or "ULTIMATE Fighter" but more now just a tough guy. The UFC didn't prove that grappling was totlly superior because you never saw any real martial art masters compete agains it. So what really did the UFC prove besides tough guys taking a beating?

Tarek Hussein (16)


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## Cruentus

UFC proved a few things:

#1. Groundfighting is hell-ov-important, and shouldn't be taken for granted like it was prior to UFC.

#2. "Live" training against resisting, unpredictable opponents is vital to all training.

#3. NHB fighting is not combat or street defense, but it is a very tough sport.

Yours,

Kimo


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## Littledragon

Tulisan said:
			
		

> UFC proved a few things:
> 
> #1. Groundfighting is hell-ov-important, and shouldn't be taken for granted like it was prior to UFC.
> 
> #2. "Live" training against resisting, unpredictable opponents is vital to all training.
> 
> #3. NHB fighting is not combat or street defense, but it is a very tough sport.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Kimo


Thank you for your response and I totally agree with you. The UFC did prove those aspects which was in benefit for martial artists as well as it proved and kind of gave an image on what a real fight using martial arts was.

Thanks.

Tarek


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## DuckofDeath

I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!


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## Littledragon

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!


Same! We all know what would be the end result. 


Tarek (16)


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## DuckofDeath

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Same! We all know what would be the end result.




:asian:​


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## Littledragon

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> :asian:​


Also I think it would be a wake up call to some of the UFC fighters, some of them need to check their egos. They are tough guys no doubt but strength can not over power the experience of the mind and those Real martial art masters have what these UFC fighters lack. Just imagine Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster Hee Il Cho, he would literally wipe those UFC fighters off their feet.

Now those are the true champions.

Tarek


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## hedgehogey

> I have never seen an Aikido grandmaster comopete



That's to be expected, considering aikido is pacifist.



> or a World Karate champion grand master compete



Minoki Uchihara, many others



> or even a Korean Tae Kwon Do master in the UFC.



Kimo, Kim Jing Wu

C level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with cho. There's thousands of amatuer events for him across the country, he can enter at any time.


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## Littledragon

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> That's to be expected, considering aikido is pacifist.
> 
> 
> 
> Minoki Uchihara, many others
> 
> 
> 
> Kimo, Kim Jing Wu
> 
> C level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with cho. There's thousands of amatuer events for him across the country, he can enter at any time.


No way C level MMA fighers would wipe the floor with cho. Kimo and Kim Jing Wu are not true Tae Kwon Do masters and I think that most can agree with me on that. 

Minoki Uchihara is not a karate master but a 2nd degree black belt, he was not that good at all he was not a skileld fighter or martial artist. I am talking about real Japanese Karate Masters such as Mas Oyama, Geshin Funakoshi, Gogen Yamaguchi, etc.. But saying Kimo is a tae kwon do master is incorrect because he is not, and no c level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with Cho I dont think you have seen what he can do.

Tarek


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## hedgehogey

Littledragon said:
			
		

> No way C level MMA fighers would wipe the floor with cho. Kimo and Kim Jing Wu are not true Tae Kwon Do masters and I think that most can agree with me on that.
> Tarek


I've seen his website. I'd bet on a guy with 2 fights vs him. He can't grapple, simple as that. 

Of course, if these "True TKD masters" are so good, there's thousands of NHB events that would love to have them.


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## Littledragon

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> I've seen his website. I'd bet on a guy with 2 fights vs him. He can't grapple, simple as that.
> 
> Of course, if these "True TKD masters" are so good, there's thousands of NHB events that would love to have them.


You've seen his website but you really haven't seen him. I don't agree with you on this one sorry.


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## MJS

Whats amazing is that you never see any of the 'Masters' enter in these fights.  Now maybe its because they are not interested, maybe its because they fear that if they lose, it'll have a bad effect on them.  I would think though, that any of the MMA events out there would be more than happy to have these people enter.

I do agree with HH though....you need to have a grappling background if you want to succeed in these events.  At the very least, you need to understand the ground.  Now a good example is Maurice Smith.  Here you have a kickboxer who spent some time training with Frank Shamrock.  Frank showed him some basic ground defense and it was enough to keep Mark Coleman from submitting him.  

Mike


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## Littledragon

MJS said:
			
		

> Whats amazing is that you never see any of the 'Masters' enter in these fights. Now maybe its because they are not interested, maybe its because they fear that if they lose, it'll have a bad effect on them. I would think though, that any of the MMA events out there would be more than happy to have these people enter.
> 
> I do agree with HH though....you need to have a grappling background if you want to succeed in these events. At the very least, you need to understand the ground. Now a good example is Maurice Smith. Here you have a kickboxer who spent some time training with Frank Shamrock. Frank showed him some basic ground defense and it was enough to keep Mark Coleman from submitting him.
> 
> Mike


Honestly, if a true martial art master such as Jhoon Rhee, Steven Seagal,Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi, Bong Soo Han, they are true martial artists and would win regardless if they know grappling or not. You have these masters training for over 30 years and achieved the highest technique, I think these are true martial artists and they could win against any of the tough UFC fighters out today.


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## MJS

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Honestly, if a true martial art master such as Jhoon Rhee, Steven Seagal,Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi, Bong Soo Han, they are true martial artists and would win regardless if they know grappling or not. You have these masters training for over 30 years and achieved the highest technique, I think these are true martial artists and they could win against any of the tough UFC fighters out today.



Ron Van Cleif fought Royce in UFC 4 and lost.  Now, here is someone that has been doing Goju for how many years and what happened??  I'm not disagreeing with you here.  The people that you mentioned are great MA, and have been around for a long time.  It all goes back to the stand up/grappling debate.  If you're not familiar with something how can you expect to defend it?  This can be broken down into 3 parts----before, during and after.

Before-  Before the fight goes to the ground, you have your stand up skills.  Striking, kicking, etc. All things that are done to keep the grappler at bay.  

During- The grappler is closing the distance and is getting the clinch.  Is there time to react??  If the anti-grappling techs. are being taught against a non-resisting opp. then of course its going to work....the attacker is just standing there, letting the other guy do his stuff.  Now, add a little resistance and it all changes.

After-  The stand up fighter is on the ground getting pummeled.  Has or does the stand up artist do his techs. on the ground?  Does he know how to move? Does he know how to avoid the grappler from getting into a more superior position?  You take someone like Rickson Gracie.  The man has been undefeated in 400+ fights.  Now, in all of those fights, I find it hard to believe that he has never fought a stand up guy that didnt have skill.  

Again, as I said before.  If you really want to be prepared, you should understand all ranges of fighting.

Mike


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## Littledragon

MJS said:
			
		

> Ron Van Cleif fought Royce in UFC 4 and lost. Now, here is someone that has been doing Goju for how many years and what happened?? I'm not disagreeing with you here. The people that you mentioned are great MA, and have been around for a long time. It all goes back to the stand up/grappling debate. If you're not familiar with something how can you expect to defend it? This can be broken down into 3 parts----before, during and after.
> 
> Before- Before the fight goes to the ground, you have your stand up skills. Striking, kicking, etc. All things that are done to keep the grappler at bay.
> 
> During- The grappler is closing the distance and is getting the clinch. Is there time to react?? If the anti-grappling techs. are being taught against a non-resisting opp. then of course its going to work....the attacker is just standing there, letting the other guy do his stuff. Now, add a little resistance and it all changes.
> 
> After- The stand up fighter is on the ground getting pummeled. Has or does the stand up artist do his techs. on the ground? Does he know how to move? Does he know how to avoid the grappler from getting into a more superior position? You take someone like Rickson Gracie. The man has been undefeated in 400+ fights. Now, in all of those fights, I find it hard to believe that he has never fought a stand up guy that didnt have skill.
> 
> Again, as I said before. If you really want to be prepared, you should understand all ranges of fighting.
> 
> Mike


Ron Van Clief was 51 and not in good shape at that time in fact I don't care how many blackbelts and titles he has I don't think he is a great martial artsist. I just can't see how someone like Kimo or Frank Mir could beat a true Karate Grandmaster like Mas Oyama who killed bulls with his bare hands.


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## MJS

Littledragon said:
			
		

> Ron Van Clief was 51 and not in good shape at that time in fact I don't care how many blackbelts and titles he has I don't think he is a great martial artsist. I just can't see how someone like Kimo or Frank Mir could beat a true Karate Grandmaster like Mas Oyama who killed bulls with his bare hands.



Well, I'm just going to say 2 things here.

1- We're all entitled to our opinions.  I'm not a fan of RVC, but I was just using him as an example.  At least he had the guts to get into the ring and test his skills.  

2-  I agree.  Mas Oyama was an excellent MA.  Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day.  Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo.  Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are.  Does that mean that they could never be beat???

Mike


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## Littledragon

MJS said:
			
		

> Well, I'm just going to say 2 things here.
> 
> 1- We're all entitled to our opinions. I'm not a fan of RVC, but I was just using him as an example. At least he had the guts to get into the ring and test his skills.
> 
> 2- I agree. Mas Oyama was an excellent MA. Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day. Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo. Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are. Does that mean that they could never be beat???
> 
> Mike


My conclusion is true martial arts masters are different from just tough MMA fighter, Rickson Gracie wins every match because he is a true master in his art and not just a tough wrestler like Frank Mir or a tough guy like Tank Abbot. You will see the difference if you watch a true martial art master fighting compared to just a tough guy who knows how to punch and wrestle and can take a few hits.


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## MJS

Littledragon said:
			
		

> My conclusion is true martial arts masters are different from just tough MMA fighter, Rickson Gracie wins every match because he is a true master in his art and not just a tough wrestler like Frank Mir or a tough guy like Tank Abbot. You will see the difference if you watch a true martial art master fighting compared to just a tough guy who knows how to punch and wrestle and can take a few hits.



Agreed!! :asian:   Again, please dont misunderstand what I'm saying here.  I've never said that Tank or Mir were the best fighters around.  As for true masters....I had the chance this past weekend to attend a 2 day seminar with Leo Gaje from the Pekiti Tirsia system.  The man is 66 yrs. old but moves lke someone who is 20!  His stick and knife work is some of the best that I've seen.  It was really amazing to watch someone throw around men that were much taller and stronger. I've also had the chance to see the late Remy Presas.  He too was incredible to watch!!! So yes, to answer your question, I have had the chance many times to see some great Masters, and I agree with what you said.

Mike


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## OULobo

MJS said:
			
		

> 2-  I agree.  Mas Oyama was an excellent MA.  Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day.  Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo.  Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are.  Does that mean that they could never be beat???



I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.


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## Littledragon

OULobo said:
			
		

> I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.


Good post. Btw the grappler you mentioned on Seagal was RUMOURED to have happened on the set of Under Siege, "Judo" Gene Lebell is rumoured to have challenged Seagal to a little match after Seagal was challenging all the stuntmen to a little combat. But we don't know that for sure.


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## Disco

I have seen this type of debate go on for years now. The MMA guys are tough hard nosed fighters, this I agree with. But, yes there is a but..... I will revert back to the very 1st event. Gracie fought some Japanese Karate person, don't recall the name. This billing was No Holds Barred Fighting. Well that title was far from the truth. Gracie had the Karate guy in the mount position and was throwing punches at his face. The karate guy was doing a decent job of fending off the blows. We watched this go on for at least 4 to 5 minutes. I kept saying, when is the karate guy going to remove Gracie from his mount position with a strike to the throat or an eye rake or a groin grab. Both hands of the karate guy were free. Needless to say, none of aformentioned responses happened. Why?, because those techniques were not allowed. So what's the bottom line derived from this? It was a set up. Who started this event? The Gracies! Who set up the rules? Again, the Gracies. How many times has the rules been changed or restructured for these fights since it's beginnings? RULES YOU SAY!!!... there's no rules...... Of course there's rules or shall we say things not allowed. Don't believe me, go check them for yourself. A real fight is for survival, a ring with a ref to intervene is a sporting event. By everyone's admission, fighters from varied styles had to restructure their training to include ground fighting techniques. Although not all that bad unto itself, any training is productive training to some extent, they were forced to go outside of their discipline because of rules. The only way anyone can be called the best, greatest, etc fighter is to have a real no holds barred - ANYTHING GOES throw down. Don't really forsee that ever happening, at least here in the U.S.


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## MJS

OULobo said:
			
		

> I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.



Very good post!!  I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'm a huge fan of cross training and stress it to others as much as I can.  If they dont want to do it, thats cool, but they're missing out on something very important.  

As for Segal....yes, I heard the same thing, and I believe it was Lebell who choked him out.  As for Norris...I give the man a ton of credit.  Considering he already had a good background, he still kept an open mind and went to learn BJJ from the Machados.  The same can be said for Inosanto.  

As I said before in another post....even the best people can be beat!

Mike


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## MJS

Disco said:
			
		

> I have seen this type of debate go on for years now. The MMA guys are tough hard nosed fighters, this I agree with. But, yes there is a but..... I will revert back to the very 1st event. Gracie fought some Japanese Karate person, don't recall the name. This billing was No Holds Barred Fighting. Well that title was far from the truth. Gracie had the Karate guy in the mount position and was throwing punches at his face. The karate guy was doing a decent job of fending off the blows. We watched this go on for at least 4 to 5 minutes. I kept saying, when is the karate guy going to remove Gracie from his mount position with a strike to the throat or an eye rake or a groin grab. Both hands of the karate guy were free. Needless to say, none of aformentioned responses happened. Why?, because those techniques were not allowed. So what's the bottom line derived from this? It was a set up. Who started this event? The Gracies! Who set up the rules? Again, the Gracies. How many times has the rules been changed or restructured for these fights since it's beginnings? RULES YOU SAY!!!... there's no rules...... Of course there's rules or shall we say things not allowed. Don't believe me, go check them for yourself. A real fight is for survival, a ring with a ref to intervene is a sporting event. By everyone's admission, fighters from varied styles had to restructure their training to include ground fighting techniques. Although not all that bad unto itself, any training is productive training to some extent, they were forced to go outside of their discipline because of rules. The only way anyone can be called the best, greatest, etc fighter is to have a real no holds barred - ANYTHING GOES throw down. Don't really forsee that ever happening, at least here in the U.S.



Yup...and this statement has been beat like a dead horse!!!!!!!!  People seem to forget that although it said' NO Holds Barred' I really dont think that you could hold an event anywhere in the world that would allow an eye shot, biting, or the other 'street' shots.  Again, this is a sport and the name went from NHB to MMA!  The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!!  An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to.  Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab???  What about a hit to the groin??  Why is it that the stand up guys have to  rely on THOSE techs. in order to win???  If they are that good with striking and kicking then it shouldnt make any difference.  

Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules. 

Mike


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## Disco

Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules.

No conflict there, we agree.....

The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!! An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to. Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab??? What about a hit to the groin?? Why is it that the stand up guys have to rely on THOSE techs. in order to win???

Why? because it's a way that they train. Grappling skills require strength and not everybody is equipped with that gift. Other wise the many other disciplines would not have emerged. We all would just be grapplers from the beginning. As for stand up skills, they do not allow direct knee strikes. That is a staple of many stand up fighting styles. No groin strikes. Again a staple. Throat strikes not allowed, but chokes are, which gives the edge to the strength of a grappler. If I'm not mistaken, elbow strikes have also been somewhat restricted. No small joint manipulations are allowed I believe. The Japanese guy had ground fighting skills, but not sport ground fighting. We all know that there is a difference. An anology that has been used is go into a ring with a boxer and you have to use boxing rules. The MA'ist will get his head handed to him. Go into a ring where tools are being restricted and you have the same problem, but to a lesser degree, but none the less a problem. So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention. They weren't allowed. The first couple of fights was a learning curve for those that would choose to go into the ring. They inturn made adjustments for what was needed to compete...... operative word "compete", and overcame the advantage that the Gracie's had. So now we have the enternal debate that seems never ending. Bottom line is that there are two camps and they have there respective viewpoints. So I guess the really prudent thing to do is agree to disagree and still be friends.......


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## hedgehogey

WRONG. At the time of that match, all that deadly throat grabbing, eye raking crap was allowed. Gracie vs ichihara, right? 

There are PLENTY of events where that stuff is allowed and it doesn't make a lick of difference.



> So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention.



No. 

1: They were allowed.

and 

2: Rickson preffered to finish his fights by his signature move, the mata leon. It wouldn't have made any difference if the guy on bottom had tried to eye gouge. He was UNDER RICKSON'S MOUNT. 

There's two videos of challenge matches on bullshido.net (BJJ vs karate, MMA vs kung fu) where you can see guys trying to gouge from under mount and getting their arms snapped for their trouble.


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## Disco

There's only two answers to that.

1. If as you say they were allowed, then the Japanese fighter was not very well trained even in his choosen discipline. Which unto itself makes me wonder how and why he was admitted to the match.

2. It is highly doubtful that those techniques were allowed then. There not allowed now. I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a shuto to the throat and I hope you never will be. There's also a very nice pressure point on the side of the throat that will make somebodies day if used. Again this was either not an option or bad training. 

Gracie was yes in the mount position, with a leg wrap to boot. He was pressing down on the shoulder with one arm and punching with the other. Put yourself in the same position as the Karate guy. Both arms free to defend and what would be your choice of defense and escape, if as you say all things were allowed?

From the UFC web site, These are the fouls - Not Allowed.....
Butting with the head. 
Eye gouging of any kind. 
Biting. 
Hair pulling. 
Fish hooking. 
Groin attacks of any kind. 
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. 
Small joint manipulation. 
Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
Grabbing the clavicle. 
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
Stomping a grounded opponent. 
Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
Spitting at an opponent. 
Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. 
Holding the ropes or the fence. 
Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 
Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 
Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. 
Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat. 
Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. 
Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 
Interference by the corner. 
Throwing in the towel during competition.


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## ace

All I will say is this I compete in MMA I have Been training 
Martial Arts Since I was 2.(On & off Seriously the Last 7 Years)
 I am a Black Belt in two Martial Arts.(No Im Not a Master)

I have Met a few so called Masters that When Push Comes to Shove
Would Fold under the Pressure.

In the 1st UFC only Biting & Eye Pokes Were out.


Which in a slef Defence Case could prove useful
but if U base Your Training of the next 20 Years on This
U may Fall Short :asian:


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## MJS

Disco said:
			
		

> Again, its a sport, and that being said, there are going to be rules.
> 
> No conflict there, we agree.....



Ok.



> The Japanese guy that you mention lost for one reason and one reason only....he had no ground skill!!!! An eye jab, groin kick, and bite are not secret techniques that only the stand up artists have access to. Do you not think that Rickson couldnt do an eye jab??? What about a hit to the groin?? Why is it that the stand up guys have to rely on THOSE techs. in order to win???
> 
> Why? because it's a way that they train. Grappling skills require strength and not everybody is equipped with that gift.



Gotta disagree with you on that one.  That is a very common misconception about grappling.  Helio was a small man who refined the techs. to fit his body style.  Technique will win over strength anyday!!!



> Other wise the many other disciplines would not have emerged. We all would just be grapplers from the beginning. As for stand up skills, they do not allow direct knee strikes. That is a staple of many stand up fighting styles. No groin strikes. Again a staple. Throat strikes not allowed, but chokes are, which gives the edge to the strength of a grappler.



Again I disagree.  You're basically saying, unless I'm misunderstanding, that unless the stand up guy does those strikes, then his skills are cut in half!!  Let me ask you this.  What do you think about adapting to the situation? Did you ever take into consideration the "What If" situation?  When I'd teach a sparring class, rather than always do the same thing, I'd limit the students to things that they can/cant do.....just punches, just kicks, one person can punch while the other only kicks, any punch you want, but only a sidekick.  Regardless of if they can do the eye gouge, throat strike, etc. they should still be able to defend themselves w/o doing those strikes.  

As for chokes in BJJ...they are not or should not be attacking the throat, but rather the side of the neck.  The idea is to cut off the blood flow, not the wind.  Attacking the throat during a choke can lead to death.



> If I'm not mistaken, elbow strikes have also been somewhat restricted. No small joint manipulations are allowed I believe.



Thats correct.  



> The Japanese guy had ground fighting skills, but not sport ground fighting.



Again, he should not have to rely on those strikes to save him.  If he had any ground training, he should have been able to defend himself better than he did.



> We all know that there is a difference. An anology that has been used is go into a ring with a boxer and you have to use boxing rules. The MA'ist will get his head handed to him. Go into a ring where tools are being restricted and you have the same problem, but to a lesser degree, but none the less a problem. So yes, Rickson could have used the very same techniques, but didn't....... Because he didn't want them done to him. Very understandable and frankly very smart, but that unto itself validates the point of contention. They weren't allowed. The first couple of fights was a learning curve for those that would choose to go into the ring. They inturn made adjustments for what was needed to compete...... operative word "compete", and overcame the advantage that the Gracie's had. So now we have the enternal debate that seems never ending. Bottom line is that there are two camps and they have there respective viewpoints. So I guess the really prudent thing to do is agree to disagree and still be friends.......



Again, keep in mind that we are talking about a sport!!!!  There are going to be rules.

Mike


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## MJS

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> WRONG. At the time of that match, all that deadly throat grabbing, eye raking crap was allowed. Gracie vs ichihara, right?



Those strikes were allowed???  Are you sure about that??



> There are PLENTY of events where that stuff is allowed and it doesn't make a lick of difference.



Really? Where???

Mike


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## hedgehogey

n





			
				Disco said:
			
		

> There's only two answers to that.
> 
> 1. If as you say they were allowed, then the Japanese fighter was not very well trained even in his choosen discipline. Which unto itself makes me wonder how and why he was admitted to the match.


He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.



> 2. It is highly doubtful that those techniques were allowed then. There not allowed now. I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a shuto to the throat and I hope you never will be.


I get shutoed in the throat all the time...AND I LIKE IT!

Anyway, what kind of striking power are you going to generate from UNDER MOUNT? He is SITTING ON YOUR CHEST. How in the world would you rotate your body?



> There's also a very nice pressure point on the side of the throat that will make somebodies day if used.


"Make someone's day" as in "make them spray their shorts".



> Again this was either not an option or bad training.


Did you watch the godamn fight? How about those videos I pointed you to? ALL the TMAists tried to gouge, elbow, attack the throat, etc.



> Gracie was yes in the mount position, with a leg wrap to boot. He was pressing down on the shoulder with one arm and punching with the other. Put yourself in the same position as the Karate guy. Both arms free to defend and what would be your choice of defense and escape, if as you say all things were allowed?


Well first things first, I wouldn't extend my arm, which is the first thing you learn in BJJ. I would try to hip bump him off balance and shrimp out if neccesary. I would NOT reach for his throat, since that would give him several armlocks.



> From the UFC web site, These are the fouls - Not Allowed.....


Those are the rules TODAY, which is the fault of ******* congressmen. None of those were rules when the UFC started.


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## hedgehogey

MJS said:
			
		

> Those strikes were allowed??? Are you sure about that??


Yes.




> Really? Where???
> 
> Mike


Russian absolute, possibly brazil vale tudo, a comp in paraguay, most brazilian tourneys have one or two rules. Also, the gracie challenge.


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## MJS

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Russian absolute, possibly brazil vale tudo, a comp in paraguay, most brazilian tourneys have one or two rules. Also, the gracie challenge.



Thanks for the clarification.

Mike


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## Disco

He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.

Well I did not only look at the "damn" intro, I actually watched the fight. Why do you think I made all these references to what the karate guy could have done but didn't....

You have been hit in the throat and "you like it"?.  

So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?

Your viewpoints and opinions are yours and you feel strongly about them. Good for you. Your willing to stand behind them and debate, also good. We will not have a meeting of the minds on this subject, so suffice to say we agree to disagree.

P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.


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## MJS

Disco said:
			
		

> So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?



Let me clarify.  Why do you think that while grappling, these guys get so tired? One of the reasons could be that they are trying to out muscle the other guy.  Watch Royce when he fights.  He stays relaxed, calm, and then when the other guy gets tired, Royce moves in for the finish.  The same with Rickson.  I've never seen either of them muscle techniques.  As for the weight classes....that is part of the new rules.  The first few events did not have weight classes.  Again, its the technical part that is important.  Not saying that strength isnt, but to rely just on that...not good!



> Your viewpoints and opinions are yours and you feel strongly about them. Good for you. Your willing to stand behind them and debate, also good. We will not have a meeting of the minds on this subject, so suffice to say we agree to disagree.



Thats fine.  I have never had the intention of changing anyones mind about anything.  Just simply trying to have a discussion.



> P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.



Again, returning to the strength debate.  Helio is a small man.  His strength is not going to match that of someone like Mark Coleman.  But, Coleman is a big man and will use his strength to aid him.  Look at the Smith/Coleman fight.  Smith wore him down slowly, and then finished him with kicks.  The point is, is that the harder you try to muscle on a tech. the more tired you're gonna get.  I've rolled with guys that out weighed me and were much stronger, and they always do the same thing...try to out muscle me.  I stay relaxed, wait until they start to get tired and then apply my move.

Mike


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## RCastillo

There are many good points, but one bad one; the money was, and is horrible. If I'm gonna fight like that, the money better be outstanding. If it's good enough for Pro Boxers, it should be the same for FullContact Fighters. :asian:


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## hedgehogey

Disco said:
			
		

> He was a champion and several degrees black belt. Look at the damn intro.
> 
> Well I did not only look at the "damn" intro, I actually watched the fight. Why do you think I made all these references to what the karate guy could have done but didn't....


Then look at the fights on bullshido. NOW.



> You have been hit in the throat and "you like it"?.


You heard me.



> So strength is not any part of the equation of being a grappler, only technique is the key. Very interesting. Then why are there weight classes for the fights?


Don't ****ing kid yourself. Strength is a factor in everything. It's LESS of a factor in grappling than in striking. But as a 150 pounder, I know that it matters quite a bit. 



> P.S. On a side note. I have met one of the Gracie's. Not sure if it was the gentlemen you referenced or one of his brothers. Anyway, he was of average size as you eluded to. When I shook his hand my hand went into a vice.


Seeing as they've been grappling since they were kids, that's to be expected.


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## sgtmac_46

DuckofDeath said:
			
		

> I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!


The likely result would be that a "REAL Martial Arts master" wouldn't fight Tank Abbott, content as they are to be worshipped by those around them, and make excuses about the "deadliness" of their art. The truth is, play fighting for years in a Dojo does not necessarily make one a better fighter. Tank Abbott had been wrestling since he was 9 years old and boxing for 9 years before he stepped in to the UFC ring. He'd also been honing his skills in the street with real fights. Something you can't get in most dojo's. The Samurai weren't dangerous because they sat around breaking boards. They were dangerous because they were bloodied, and the ones that survived were born again hard. That's the difference. When you live in an artificial world, it's easy to convince people you're the best. Few are willing to test it. I'll be the first to say that Tank Abbott is not a nice guy. But he's never backed down from a fight, even if he eventually lost them. I can't say the same for many alleged "masters". Being a 10th Dan in a given style doesn't mean you're a good fighter, it means you've mastered the technical skills of your art. A yellow belt with talent may beat a master in a real fight. Talent, strength and natural ability are also factors, not just technical skills. Further, untested theoretical technical skills do not necessarily equal good strategy and technique. Dismissing a "street fighter" because he has no formal training is a mistake for many martial artists. Just because they haven't been practicing their fancy "Axe-kick" in the dojo, doesn't mean they don't know what works. More importantly, many "street fighters" have been in numerous no-holds barred real street fights, and have developed, through trial and error, simple techniques that work well in a simple and direct violent confrontation, where martial artists have been learning untested theory. This isn't to say that you can't teach effective techniques that work in the street, but those techniques must be grounded in reality, which is where the UFC comes in. It is the closest thing to a real fight without visiting the local bar.  My guess would be that Tank Abbott would probably brutalize many alleged masters.  He has real world experience, and he doesn't make excuses (well, not many, though i've heard a few excuses for losing, he keeps coming back) and he'd likely put many masters in the hospital.  What's more to the point, most "Masters" know this, and would likely not get in the ring with him.  They'd make some statement about how deadly they are as a master, and back out.


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## RMACKD

The first three UFC's allowed everything except biting and eye gouging but even those techniques were not completely illegal. You would have to pay a small fee to the other fighter if you did those techniques. Gordeau bit Gracie and ended up being coked after he tapped out for his troubles. Trying to eye gouge a guy on top of you is begging for an arm bar. Even if it does land it will be light and chances are it will piss the guy off and get him to eye gouge your eyes which he will have better access to because of his superior position. In the events  that allowed eye gouges and biting only one ended that way. One of the guys studied reality self defense and the other karate and al they did was attempt throat strikes and eye gouges but these techniques did not have an deadly affect that ended the fight right away but one of the guys did lose some of his vision. I think this fight migh have been won from a decision or punches though that happened after the eye gouging but I am not sure. I will have to re-watch it. Anyways the reality sd guy won and went on to face a 18 year old Vitor Belfort who destroyed his bigger opponent with super fast punches. Steven Seagal has not ony been beat up by Lebell bt he has also been beat by two other guys who were both untrained. I do not believe He Il Cho or sny other of the guys mentioned would do good either.


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## sgtmac_46

RMACKD said:
			
		

> The first three UFC's allowed everything except biting and eye gouging but even those techniques were not completely illegal. You would have to pay a small fee to the other fighter if you did those techniques. Gordeau bit Gracie and ended up being coked after he tapped out for his troubles. Trying to eye gouge a guy on top of you is begging for an arm bar. Even if it does land it will be light and chances are it will piss the guy off and get him to eye gouge your eyes which he will have better access to because of his superior position. In the events that allowed eye gouges and biting only one ended that way. One of the guys studied reality self defense and the other karate and al they did was attempt throat strikes and eye gouges but these techniques did not have an deadly affect that ended the fight right away but one of the guys did lose some of his vision. I think this fight migh have been won from a decision or punches though that happened after the eye gouging but I am not sure. I will have to re-watch it. Anyways the reality sd guy won and went on to face a 18 year old Vitor Belfort who destroyed his bigger opponent with super fast punches. Steven Seagal has not ony been beat up by Lebell bt he has also been beat by two other guys who were both untrained. I do not believe He Il Cho or sny other of the guys mentioned would do good either.


Agreed. One of the greatest things the UFC proved was the realization that simply calling yourself a master and having an entourage doesn't make you the greatest fighter in the world.  Before the UFC people were impressed by the mysticism of someone like Steven Seagal.  The UFC made it very clear what worked, and more importantly, what was just silly.  Anything that seperates the real thing from the snake oil salesman is worth the price of admission.


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## judokapont

The UFC to me personally proved a great deal about real fighting, firstly i have full respect for masters of all styles i admire their dedication and skill but what people have to accept is that alot of these styles have no direct coralation to real fighting, i know its a well worn argument which will never cease but many martial arts do not work TKD included my friend. I have worked as a doorman for 13 years and have been involved in to many REAL fights to remember and i dont think training in TKD would of helped me in many of them, i have worked with guys with black belts in TKD and wing chung etc.. and ive seen them be beaten to the floor at close range and gouged bitten and firmly spanked by thugs with no formal traing apart from football violence. Being able to fight once you are being hit,controlling your fear and naked brutal aggresion is what in my experiance wins fights. If you  combine these factors with a solid skill base in dirty boxing chuck in some ground skills then your getting somewhere. This is what you see in the UFC, almost real fighting, kung Fu TKD etc great for the movies dont bring it on the street or the octagon for that matter!


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## sgtmac_46

judokapont said:
			
		

> The UFC to me personally proved a great deal about real fighting, firstly i have full respect for masters of all styles i admire their dedication and skill but what people have to accept is that alot of these styles have no direct coralation to real fighting, i know its a well worn argument which will never cease but many martial arts do not work TKD included my friend. I have worked as a doorman for 13 years and have been involved in to many REAL fights to remember and i dont think training in TKD would of helped me in many of them, i have worked with guys with black belts in TKD and wing chung etc.. and ive seen them be beaten to the floor at close range and gouged bitten and firmly spanked by thugs with no formal traing apart from football violence. Being able to fight once you are being hit,controlling your fear and naked brutal aggresion is what in my experiance wins fights. If you combine these factors with a solid skill base in dirty boxing chuck in some ground skills then your getting somewhere. This is what you see in the UFC, almost real fighting, kung Fu TKD etc great for the movies dont bring it on the street or the octagon for that matter!


I'll have to agree with you there. Boxers and wrestlers have always been good fighters in the street, before the UFC and after. You make a point, however, that bears repeating. Football (American) and Rugby gives you more real world fighting expertise than some "martial arts". Football players have the skills to simply tackle an opponent to the ground and pound them, and many times getting tackled into the side of a bar or building is a fight ending experience, even if they don't know what to do when they get you on the ground.


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## The Prof

You are 110% correct.  





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> UFC proved a few things:
> 
> #1. Groundfighting is hell-ov-important, and shouldn't be taken for granted like it was prior to UFC.
> 
> #2. "Live" training against resisting, unpredictable opponents is vital to all training.
> 
> #3. NHB fighting is not combat or street defense, but it is a very tough sport.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Kimo


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## samuelpont

[If you were to see a korean tae kwon do master fight a grappler opinions would change. Tarek Hussein (16)[/QUOTE] 
mmm, why is it we never see these masters ever test their skills in the public arena, the contest is open, they haven`t been excluded.
 I have ulitimate respect for any one who achieves this status but unless you art is full contact and pressure tested including grappling, striking and submission you leave huge holes in your arsenal.


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## samuelpont

one point also,shouldn`t we be concentrating on the best fighters mma has to offer, rather than one sad out of condition man who they wheel out to be repeatedly beaten again and again?


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## Autocrat

Hmmm.... I've read through all the posts, and noticed alot of repetition and goin to and throw about personal opinions.
Please don't mistake what people believe or say as fact... no one id wrong or right on this.....
(apart from me and what I am about to say... of course... this is fact! LOL)


The UFC proved several things....
* The Gracies have Jiu Jitsu system that works very well.
* The rules for UFC fitted those rules nicely.
* The Gracies made full advantage of their style, and the lack of such in others.
* Having a Black belt doesn't mean you can fight
* Being a Master/proffessor etc. doesn't mean you can fight!  
* You do need techniques, skill and training to fight, WELL!
* Having strength and stamina is an advantage, possibly a requisite for this sort of thing.
* Being bigger, stronger, faster, heavier, fitter, better trained, more experienced and willing to be hurt makes all the difference.... the mosre of those you lack, the more likely you are to get your head pounded.

   If you have not trained for contact.... you are likely to be beaten.  If you are not used to grappling, and face a grappler, you may get screwed!  If you are not trained to kick/punch, then facing a martial artist is likely to hurt!

Please, for the love of what ever.... think before engaging hormones and hurt feelings!

I have done MA your just over 20 years... I started as a young child taught by my father... I was taught both shotokan and goju Karate with some White Crane and my mother taught me some Combat Judo (NOT sport Judo!).  Since then, I have studied Kickboxing, Boxing and Judo, all till about mid-level experience.. no more than a year or twos worth, going twice a week every week, and practicing at home and with friends.  I know study GoJu with te, Seido and tai sabaki... and now Jiu Jitsu as well!  Over the years I have faced off in many fights... and I've lost 2 !!!!!  Thats it... TWO!  
The reason why?
I'm violent... and I'm willing to start the fight with a side kick to your knee.... a snap kick to your shin and an elbow to your head!

NONE Of THat SEEMed TO APPEAR in THE UFC!

sod gouging, biting, groining etc!
There were few full power moves from the style that could employ them..... it was a beefed up show.... and slightly more realistic version of the old wrestling... (NOT the silly leotard fairies on TV now... not that I'd mess with them... bigger, stronger and fitter!  They could hurt me... lots LOL).... but the old wrestling were people did get injured!
Not really kill or be killed... just men bashing each other... a MA version of heavyweight boxing or Thai Boxing competitions in the East!

Don't get upset over this... but it is TV.... made for TV and people like you!  It is not real per se, it's realistic it to a fair degree, but not completely real!  Do you really think anyone high up in the grades of TKD, JKD, Karate, Kung Fu or what ever other styles that employ kicks and punches would hold back from them?  The reasons the Gracie's and other Grapplers did well is because you are not likely to cripple or kill when performing standard throws, takedowns, locks or holds!  No REAL low round houses to the knees... no REAL thrust kicks to the knees or hips.... no REAL heavy hooks to the back of the head or the lower ribs!

I don't care how hard you think you are... you will not get up from a side thrust kick to the knee!  Simple.

So.... it was staged some what!

As for seeing REAL MASTERS get involved... don't make me laugh!
Hardly a legitimate reason to enact combat or risk being hurt!
Further more... you figure the possible results.... someone in the 30-40's, who does weights, runs, and wrestles and practices MA's to a high degree... or some one about the same age who does one or two styles and has mastered them, doesn't have time to benchpress twice their weight etc..... I'ts a case of who hits firsts is likely to win!  NO OnE wants that sort of gamble!  You might be the one who hits second!

So, did all that make sense?
Hope it didn't offend anyone... (if it did, read it again!)


----------



## hardheadjarhead

Autocrat said:
			
		

> I'm violent... and I'm willing to start the fight with a side kick to your knee.... a snap kick to your shin and an elbow to your head!
> 
> <snip>
> 
> No REAL low round houses to the knees... no REAL thrust kicks to the knees or hips.... no REAL heavy hooks to the back of the head or the lower ribs!
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I don't care how hard you think you are... you will not get up from a side thrust kick to the knee!  Simple.




You have to hit with that side thrust kick, bucko.  That is quite possibly the most touted--and least successful--martial arts technique out there.  Keith Hackney tried a knee kick in his first UFC.  It bounced off the Emmanual Yarborough's knee and did little damage.  Hackney finished it with punches, and broke his hand in the process.

If you've got a gift for this amazing low line attack, enter a local cage match and go for it.  Shots to the knee are allowed in many of them, if I'm not mistaken.  Or, if you like, go visit the Gracies and see if they still have that $10,000 challenge going.  Beat them with your REAL side kick to the knee, and you might have a nice chunk of change to go towards your mortgage.

If they're not offering that cash advantage, walk into a school that teaches MMA and posit your hypothesis as to the efficacy of a REAL side kick to the hips, knee, whatever...and see if they'll agree to a test.  Video it and let us all know how it goes.  You'll do a great service to the martial arts community by providing some evidence to support your claim.  Take out one of the Gracies, Machados, Erik Paulson...you'll make a name for yourself and earn respect for yourself and your claims.

This all reminds me of the posts of a young man about a year ago who was absolutely convinced that a good kick to the head or ribs would drop anybody.  If you think one technique, or a set of techniqes, is a panacea for fighting, you're bound to be sorely disappointed...and I do mean sorely.  


Regards,


Steve


----------

