# Stephen K. Hayes



## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

How big of an influence is Stephen K. Hayes on Ninjutsu these days. His books were very popular in the 80's during the Ninja-mania days, when every other month Sho Kosugi had a new ninja movie. What is Stephen K. Hayes up to these days.


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## Enson (Jul 17, 2004)

he is still a great man and a international hereo in my book. you can find more info on him on www.skhquest.com . he has a new modern version of taijutsu called toshindo. you can find more about it if you do a search.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

Actually I am trying to get people posting with some substance in an area that is usually full of negative posts.


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## terrancejack (Jul 19, 2004)

I am just an old Kenpo guy but when I occasinally went to a Stephen Hayes seminar in the late 80's it was always good info and grounded in practical application. I can understand his motivation behind doing his own thing. He apparently is not well liked by many high ranks in the Bujinkan organization but from what I have seen (this is an outsider's view) there are not too many folks in the U.S. ninjutsu community that can come close to his skill in teaching practical martial arts. I have always wondered why so many in the Bujinkan community dislike Mr. Hayes. It may be jealousy or an issue with his new approach. From reading this forum one would wonder what the state of training is in the ninjutsu community. It seems many are more concerned with making sure others are paying dues or lecturing to people about how badly the skill level is of others who do not live in Japan than learning pragmatic self-defense skills.
To answer the question, I think Mr. Hayes is still a dynamic influence in ninjutsu and in martial arts in general.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

i place mr. hayes as one of my personal heros. i have trained with a toshindo practicioner and i believe his moves and techniques are great. very powerful. i have seen mr. hayes in action and his skill level is amazing. why many don't like mr. hayes is a mystery to me too. i think he took a concept and made it better in his eyes. now if its not original than i'm sure you can see him do the original stuff in the kihon classes. even though some of his stuff is not something i would do in certain situations but it works well for him so i won't say its not good. i don't remember what post it was on but it said something to the effect of "if you aren't studying under hatsumi sensei right now you don't know real ninpo." or something like that. i think that may be the position of many bujin practicioners. maybe thats why they don't appreciate mr. hayes. i believe that you use what works for you. i have seen mr. hayes... it works!

peace


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## heretic888 (Jul 19, 2004)

> i don't remember what post it was on but it said something to the effect of "if you aren't studying under hatsumi sensei right now you don't know real ninpo." or something like that. i think that may be the position of many bujin practicioners. maybe thats why they don't appreciate mr. hayes.



An interesting claim --- considering, from what I've read, Hayes still does train with Hatsumi-soke. Then again, I could be wrong.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

now i have to go back and find the post huh?


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

I guess since no one else will, I'll fire the shot.

Anyone care to comment about Hayes being in the list of "banned" teachers to train with by Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kai?


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## heretic888 (Jul 19, 2004)

> Anyone care to comment about Hayes being in the list of "banned" teachers to train with by Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kai?



Errr.... would you mind rephrasing that, Jay?? I got like two interpretations at once from the sentence.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I guess since no one else will, I'll fire the shot.
> 
> Anyone care to comment about Hayes being in the list of "banned" teachers to train with by Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kai?


mr. hayes is banned? really? need more input.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

Steve was in the list of instructors that Hatsumi sensei has forbidden Bujinkan members to train with.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Steve was in the list of instructors that Hatsumi sensei has forbidden Bujinkan members to train with.


pretty harsh don't cha think? "you can't play with him no more"... "yes daddy".(joke) what happens if they disobey? does hayes know of the ban? i read that hatsumi told hayes that he needed to open his own school and develope his own chapter. (don't remember where. i think on hayes' website.)
peace


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I guess since no one else will, I'll fire the shot.
> 
> Anyone care to comment about Hayes being in the list of "banned" teachers to train with by Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kai?


Yeah Jay, if you're gonna fire the shot fire it!  Don't ask it as a question whether or not someone cares to comment.  Say what you gotta say.

I train with An-Shue Hayes.  Not much can be taken away from the fact that he is the first American ever to train personally with Hatsumi-Soke.  In my book, it wasn't until Hayes Sensei brought it all back to America that everyone else seemed to catch on.  Black Belt magazine quotes him as being the "grandfather of Americian Ninjutsu."

Great teacher and mentor.  Extrememly practical.  His main dojo (Quest Center) is located in Dayton, Ohio and has many affiliates.  Have never heard him write or say anything negative about the different ryus.  He is an ambassador of good will for the martial art community.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Steve was in the list of instructors that Hatsumi sensei has forbidden Bujinkan members to train with.


I would imagine that Hatsumi sensei has asked Bunjinkan members not to train with An-Shu Hayes perhaps so as to maintain Bujinkan "purity" (word loosely selected).  Hayes sensei now teaches To-Shin Do.  Of course I wasn't there when the "ban" (wow!) was instituted so can't say.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

> what happens if they disobey?



They will not be allowed back in the Bujinkan.  He explained that it's fine remaining friends with the "list" of people, but to not train with them.

Steven Hayes
Shoto Tanemura
Fumio Manaka
Muramatsu sensei
Ishizuki sensei



> Don't ask it as a question whether or not someone cares to comment.



I asked it as such because that's what I wanted to know.  Simple.



> Not much can be taken away from the fact that he is the first American ever to train personally with Hatsumi-Soke.



Besides Terry Dobson?


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> They will not be allowed back in the Bujinkan. He explained that it's fine remaining friends with the "list" of people, but to not train with them.
> 
> Steven Hayes
> Shoto Tanemura
> ...


my personal opinion is that stinks!:CTF:  but i guess only the buji guys know the real reason why. and i have also read that hayes was the very first american to study and bring it back. don't know anything about terry dobson. maybe you can elaborate on him. where is dale and don when we need them?


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## Shogun (Jul 19, 2004)

Dont think of this as a negative. Everyone on the banned list may still remain friends, and since the Bujinkan is an open organization, the may still train with him. It just goes back to the subject of Philosophy, loyalty, etc.
Also see this thread:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15478&page=1&pp=15


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

> don't know anything about terry dobson. maybe you can elaborate on him.



Terry Dobson was the first westerner/American to study under Hatsumi sensei.  He was a live-in student of Ueshiba sensei.  He was the man that introduced Quentin Chambers to Hatsumi sensei.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Dont think of this as a negative. Everyone on the banned list may still remain friends, and since the Bujinkan is an open organization, the may still train with him. It just goes back to the subject of Philosophy, loyalty, etc.


I assumed that this was the case.  I seriously doubt that anyone would be kicked out.  I do agree with the subject of philosophy, loyalty.  It makes sense.  Actually that is what I was trying to elude to a few posts ago.  Thank you Shogun for that clarification.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Terry Dobson was the first westerner/American to study under Hatsumi sensei. He was a live-in student of Ueshiba sensei. He was the man that introduced Quentin Chambers to Hatsumi sensei.


Pretty interesting how Terry Dobson is not mentioned as being being a student of Hatsumi sensei.  At least in the things I have read.  The only thing I find is that Dobson was an early student and disciple of Ueshiba sensei.  After learning Aikido from him he brought THAT back to America. not Ninjutsu.  Can anyone give us more info?


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## terrancejack (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm sorry to hear Mr. Hatsumi feels this way. If this is true it makes the Bujinkan organization sound more like a cult than a martial arts system. If you train with someone whom you enjoy training with and get a lot of information from, you then will be banned from training in the Bujinkan? This sounds very petty to me but it is Mr. Hatsumi's system and he can do with it what he likes. 
I'm sure this won't stop most people from learning from Mr. Hayes.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Terry Dobson was in Japan to learn Aikido, NOT Ninjutsu.  Although he was friends and and trained with Hatsumi soke,  he wasn't a "student" of Hatsumi as Hayes was.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

That's odd, seeing how his name was on the student register at the original Hombu.  He was indeed studying Aikido under Ueshiba (wasn't that mentioned before?)....he also studied with Hatsumi sensei.

_Ellis Admur on this issue:_

The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along - among them was Quentin Chambers who wrote the book with Dr. Hatsumi on stickfighting. Most of the Westerners were part of a small floating group, mostly practicing judo, aikido and karate.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

I do believe you are stretching the aspect of Dobson's studentship with Hatsumi.  Perhaps a bit out of context or perspective.  Obviously my opinion while you have yours.  My point is that Dobson's training was involving Aikido, not Ninjutsu.  That was his purpose for being in Japan.  Thanks anyways.  An-Shu Hayes was the first American student accepted by Hatsumi sensei for Ninjutsu training - the first American to share it with the west.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> That's odd, seeing how his name was on the student register at the original Hombu. He was indeed studying Aikido under Ueshiba (wasn't that mentioned before?)....he also studied with Hatsumi sensei.


maybe he signed in and walked out. was i the only one to do that in college? is segel's name in there?(sorry i had too ((joke)) hey jay i know in about the next 2 post you will mention danny waxman. the reason i know is that i saw a past post just like this one in the "ninja history" thread. i know that you are knowledgable of ninjutsu arts but i think we need dale, don, or ralph on this one. i'm not doubting you but you are the only one i have ever heard mention dobson or waxman as members before hayes and knowing much more than hayes.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

Are you even listening?  I'll spell it out real nice and slow for you...

Terry Dobson was in Japan studying Aikido.  He ALSO (see that word?) studied under Hatsumi sensei.

Hayes was *not* the first westerner accepted as a student of Hatsumi sensei.  I've listened to that drivel for 13 years...and it's as wrong today as it was when Hayes originally said it.  Chambers, Danny Waxman, Terry Dobson, Daron Navon, all came before Hayes.



> An-Shu Hayes was the first American student accepted by Hatsumi sensei for Ninjutsu training - the first American to share it with the west.



Two different things.  First part is wrong, second....ehh...might be.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

To study with someone is one thing - To be a student of that someone is another.  The article you used even points to that fact.  It never says he was a student of Dr. Hatsumi's.  In fact is says that these Westerners "were part of a small floating group, mostly practicing judo, aikido and karate."  Hmm, no Ninjutsu... interesting...

C'mon Jay work with us here!


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

*The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along * 

Read that one more time.  He studied with Hatsumi sensei.  You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?

As well as the following (which was discussed on Budoseek)

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3508&page=3


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

i know japanese is the "in thing" language here but i want to throw in some spanish... "dicho y hecho" meaning... "said and done". i knew waxmans' name was going to be mentioned. i think the kuji kiri are helping me or maybe the tengu stepped in. hee hee!:ultracool


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## Jay Bell (Jul 19, 2004)

I'm failing to see your point in that, Enson.


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> *The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along *
> 
> Read that one more time. He studied with Hatsumi sensei. You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?
> 
> ...


why do people always bring in other forums? i realize it might have been discussed there already, but i hate clicking on those other list. can't we just keep whats said here... said here? oh i forgot jay you are a moderator. my bad! (Y) i didn't activate my account right and now i can't get in to post on budoseek. but i guess thats neither here nor there.
peace


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## Enson (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> I'm failing to see your point in that, Enson.


ah man no offense intended. just funny how it all happened the way i said it would. i really mean not to start anything.


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## gmunoz (Jul 19, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> *The first westerner to study with Dr. Hatsumi was Terry Dobson, deceased, live-in student to Morihei Ueshiba of aikido. Terry saw a notice in a newspaper about him, and sought him out in Noda- shi. He trained with him for several years, and later brought friends along *
> 
> Read that one more time. He studied with Hatsumi sensei. You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sensei?
> 
> ...


I have read it just fine Jay.  Thank you for your pedagogical approach with this dialogue.  I still read the article you posted as stating he studied "with" not "under" Dr. Hatsumi.  

"You think he learned karate, judo and aikido from Hatsumi sense?"  Okay, Okay... this obviously isn't gonna get resolved.  I just hate to assume things if I wasn't there.  Some choose to do so. Perhaps someone qualified and unbiased can settle this question.


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## r.severe (Jul 19, 2004)

Steven Hayes shihan
Shoto Tanemura shihan
Fumio Manaka shihan
Muramatsu shihan
Ishizuki shihan

This is the correct list...? Where is that bad Ralph Severe listed?
And let me tell you.. the day Hayes shihan is not in the Bujinkan is the day I will not be in the Bujinkan. This was about as poor judgement as letting Manaka shihan go. 

It's funny how the soke ego waers and tears at his dojo members !!!!!

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Shogun (Jul 19, 2004)

> This is the correct list...? Where is that bad Ralph Severe listed?


LOL

I would seriously doubt SKH is, or would ever be, out of the Booj. Bujinkan students just arent allowed to train with him. Thats all.
As for Dobson, I know he was a Ueshiba Uchideshi, and as far as I know, did'nt train under Hatsumi for very long. He wasnt an Uchideshi I dont think.!?!
But He did train with/under him.

Cheers,
Shoe Gum


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 20, 2004)

I was under the impression that Hayes and Hatsumi were close?  I may have missed something somewhere.  Then again, my understanding is that what Hayes is teaching now is a somewhat watered down version, with the more authentic ninjutsu training reserved for senior students who can handle the difficulty.  ??


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## Don Roley (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> why do people always bring in other forums? i realize it might have been discussed there already, but i hate clicking on those other list. can't we just keep whats said here... said here? oh i forgot jay you are a moderator. my bad! (Y) i didn't activate my account right and now i can't get in to post on budoseek. but i guess thats neither here nor there.
> peace



That is just plain rude and insulting. Even _hinting_ that Jay does not play fair as a moderator is untrue and beneath someone of honor. Does the fact that the guy in the thread that is the most knowledgeable about Terry is not a member here seem to have come into your consideration? And why not post to something that is as full of details as that post is?



			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> And let me tell you.. the day Hayes shihan is not in the Bujinkan is the day I will not be in the Bujinkan.



Ralph, you _aren't_ a member of the Bujinkan. Did you think people would forget this thread? I am not going to argue with you about this- the facts are clear and there is no need to get into it. You are not a member of the Bujinkan, you only use the name when it is convinient.





			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that Hayes and Hatsumi were close?



According to who? And do you think that Hayes may have an interest in presenting himself as close to Hatsumi? Mind you, the Japanese people rarely talk bad about someone in public. You hear their real opinion in private while they praise people in public if they really do not like someone. That is what is so shocking when someone like Hatsumi comes out in public and says things like what Jay reported.

(Oh, and should it not be "kingdom of idiotS" in your quote from my favorite B5 charecter?)

Gmunoz, could please be consistent with what you write? You first wrote this about Hayes,



> Not much can be taken away from the fact that he is the first American ever to train personally with Hatsumi-Soke.



Now you are saying this about Terry Dobson,



> Thank you for your pedagogical approach with this dialogue. I still read the article you posted as stating he studied "with" not "under" Dr. Hatsumi.



So it seems to me that Hayes was not the first American to study "with" Hatsumi as you originally claimed. And I think that going to a person multiple times in order to learn from them qualifies as "under" that person.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 20, 2004)

A minor correction to Jay Bell: This list of names was not announced at the April Tai Kai, but shortly afterward (mid-April Sunday Hombu training).

This was not some sudden whim on Hatumi sensei's part: He thought about it for quite some time and discussed it with certain people before promulgating the announcement. Basically, he appears not to want people "representing" him or claiming a connection with him who have scarcely trained with him over the last decade (which he has often said he considers a critical period in his teaching). The individuals named have not, as far as I know, been expelled from the Bujinkan, but Soke HAS said that those who train with them "are not welcome in the Bujinkan" and should not train in "The Booj".


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 20, 2004)

Don,
  Offhand, I can't recall where I got the impression.  It may have been from various forum posts, or from visiting Hayes website.  I honestly don't recall.  I do have several books by both and do believe there were some forewords or something by 1 in the others book.  Don't have them handy though so I can't confirm my fuzzy memory.  (Pity those lint shavers don't work on defuzzing memory huh?  )

Oh, and I fixed the quote.  Thanks!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 20, 2004)

Dale,
  So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info?  The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.

??


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> That is just plain rude and insulting. Even _hinting_ that Jay does not play fair as a moderator is untrue and beneath someone of honor. Does the fact that the guy in the thread that is the most knowledgeable about Terry is not a member here seem to have come into your consideration? And why not post to something that is as full of details as that post is?


why do i have to be the one thats rude? hee hee! i never even thought that jay wasn't fair as a moderator. i was writing this post and i remembered after that jay was a moderator. thank you very much for your concern don. by the way sometimes things don't come into my consideration. i guess God is still molding this clay. sorry i'm not that perfect yet. re: other sites. we don't all have the time to be clicking on a bunch of other sites all day trying to find the right link. just post it here so us "lazy" people can read it maybe for the first time. little harsh response don't you think don? i never intended to insult anyone. "bad enson,... bad!" oh can you help us out on this discussion now?
jay bell i really don't know how you are as a moderator. i have just read some good and bad things. (today) i never visit budoseek cause i can't get my account to work right. i accidently erased my confirmation email. anyway hope no offense was taken. the thing is i get all excited reading the post and then there is a link for another site. then i have to click on it and then another and another. you get the picture. sorry if you got upset.
peace


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Dale,
> So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info? The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.
> 
> ??


sounds a little cultish to me. i guess alot has changed since then. but then again i thought it was supposed to be traditional ninjutsu? so if things are changing in the last decade are they getting modern? (a real question) i would think that hayes would be teaching the real traditional stuff then because hatsumi sensei has modernized his approach.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 20, 2004)

> jay bell i really don't know how you are as a moderator. i have just read some good and bad things. (today) i never visit budoseek cause i can't get my account to work right. i accidently erased my confirmation email. anyway hope no offense was taken. the thing is i get all excited reading the post and then there is a link for another site. then i have to click on it and then another and another. you get the picture. sorry if you got upset.



I'm a horrible tyrant of a man.  No offense was taken, no worries.  Shoot me an email at jbell5@cox.net with the username you used for Budoseek and I'll see what I can do if you like.


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> sounds a little cultish to me.


Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him recently (if at all). 

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him recently (if at all).
> 
> Jeff


are you hinting skh never trained with hatsumi? because thats who we are talking about here right. cultish? well it just reminded me of david coresh (spelling) you know waco texas? (no offense ralph) "you can't see your family ever again and you can't be with your spouse/wife. just me". thats how is sounded cultish. don't get mad just sounds strange. i understand that he doesn't want people representing him but hayes was his personal student wasn't he? i mean i guess it could all be fake and hayes is repenting by making his own style. digital enhanced photos with hatsumi and stuff. i guess it could happen. oh the lost episode of "tales from the darkside".


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> are you hinting skh never trained with hatsumi?


No, I'm saying that he has rarely trained with him recently. Sorry if the multiple syllables threw you off...

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> No, I'm saying that he has rarely trained with him recently. Sorry if the multiple syllables threw you off...
> 
> Jeff


apology accepted! see who says i don't get along?
peace


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## r.severe (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson
You should do research on the Waco deal.
You might find that it was about money.

The same with the Bujinkan deal.
Do your research and you'll find it's about more or less money too.

The deal with the Bujinkan is twisted.
Hatsumi sensei cannot stop anyone from learning or growing. This goes for the goofy Bujinkan police than in reality have no power to police at all for any martial art group.

The ryuha of the Bujinkan have been laid out and given to the many members freely by many Bujinkan guides.. so it's out there to have.
This has nothing to do with Hatsumi ryu by the way.
Hatsumi ryu is NOT the ryuha as they were passed down but the ideas of the soke in general from the ryuha.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## gmunoz (Jul 20, 2004)

Money, Money, Money...

I guess everybody has their flaws after all...
The love of it is the root of all evil.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 20, 2004)

> Hatsumi ryu is NOT the ryuha as they were passed down but the ideas of the soke in general from the ryuha.



I'm not so sure on this one, Ralph.  Hatsumi sensei has explained that he teaches in a manner that was passed to him by Takamatsu sensei.


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## r.severe (Jul 20, 2004)

Well Jay, you may disagree. 
But Hatsumi sensei is NOT Takamatusu sensei.
Takamatsu sensei had fighting experience.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Phipps (Jul 20, 2004)

You are correct in that Hatsumi Sensei is not Takamatsu Sensei, however he said he "teaches" the way Takamatsu Sensei taught him. Beyond which the way I understand it Hatsumi Sensei's teaching has been leading to where the Bujinkan is now. If a student stopped training with him 5 years ago how are you supposed to have the same feeling? It seems like someone who trains in an art for a few years then moves to another without training long enough to learn the more advanced levels as the art. There is no problem with this however if you are not studying with someone who understands this advanced level what you teach might be effective but it is not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Techniques have to be taught in a progression and if the practitioner doesn't have this feeling how can they claim to teach the art. I think the concern is simply people passing off what they are doing as Budo Taijutsu when they don't know what's going on in the bujinkan right now. I maintain there is nothing wrong with teaching something else so long as that is understood.


Anton Phipps


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

so i will repeat myself. if hatsumi sensei is teaching today what is real taijutsu... then what was he teaching before? i believe hayes has a little more time than 5 yrs. under hatsumi but i could be wrong. so one could venture to say that those students, even those that are on this site that have learned taijutsu before 1-3 yrs ago don't know real taijutsu. i must say that i am taking on a new perspective of bujin now than before. in my personal experience as a musician one forgets some of the things that were taught to them originaly. so i find it hard to think that only now is hatsumi teaching (for real this time) what takamatsu taught him originaly. so was he making his own stuff up in the beginning? i don't know a whole lot of shakiness going on.


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2004)

Let me put this in context... Let's say that you have a teaching license in a made-up American style of ninjitsu. You have a student, who trains with you for a while, then pretty much goes off and does his own thing, showing up once in a great while for photo ops. Would you want him making use of the name of your system to attract students? Would you want your students to train with him?

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Let me put this in context... Let's say that you have a teaching license in a made-up American style of ninjitsu. You have a student, who trains with you for a while, then pretty much goes off and does his own thing, showing up once in a great while for photo ops. Would you want him making use of the name of your system to attract students? Would you want your students to train with him?
> 
> Jeff


 so let me get into your context... what you are saying is hayes is a "never was" who just tried to cash in on the ninjutsu name. he only knows hatsumi in passing and never should even mention that he knows hatsumi. he went to japan on vacation and just happened to be passing by hatsumi and took a picture with him. then when he found out that hatsumi was a ninjutsu master he cashed in on the name. how does that explain the video footage? everyones' fake but you huh? okay, okay, i'll buy your brand for a second. let me submit this to you jeff... maybe hayes is telling the truth and he really did practice bujinkan and just maybe that would make him legit and the rest of the bujinkan masters on this site right and you as the only one doubting his skill. will you buy my brand?


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## r.severe (Jul 20, 2004)

Anton....

You are correct in that Hatsumi Sensei is not Takamatsu Sensei, however he said he "teaches" the way Takamatsu Sensei taught him. 

**ky, This could have been said and taken out of context. And taken out of a time line of 25 years.****

Beyond which the way I understand it Hatsumi Sensei's teaching has been leading to where the Bujinkan is now.

**ky, this is true with any journey. This is nothing special with Hatsumi sensei.******

 If a student stopped training with him 5 years ago how are you supposed to have the same feeling?

**ky, If a student trains and has understanding of the gods&#8230; I cannot find any reason why anyone would lose any &#8216;feeling&#8217; over time.. I see them progressing beyond their teacher&#8217;s methods. One thing for sure we, meaning as a whole, progress everyday of our lives. If you live in a box or a bubble type of environment then of course you will not progress in a wholesome manner. 
This taken into account then you would have to assume &#8216;we&#8217; wish to be like Hatsumi sensei too.
But I have fighting experience in my living experiences.
This of course points me in many different directions.
Not only with body control but for example into combative nature.. of the vortex of a fight and what really happens with being pounded on.
Hatsumi sensei is NOT the only martial artist with wonderful body control or knowledge of Japanese history.************  

 It seems like someone who trains in an art for a few years then moves to another without training long enough to learn the more advanced levels as the art.

**ky, with one class many can walk away with the understanding we all seek for in a life time. Time and training go hand in hand but satori is within a flash. 
Experience of course takes time.
I would say it is not the art in question but the ability to understand what it is you are in search for and how much time that takes to grasp that feeling.******

Anton, before I post this I would like to point out one major point...
You have to assume that Donny shihan, Dale shihan or any other master ninja (Then again they might be the next coming of gods to the martial world..) on this forum are on the right track.. I don't believe they are. I feel they are misunderstanding what Hatsumi sensei is saying and doing.. and needs us to do..


ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> so let me get into your context... what you are saying is hayes is a "never was" who just tried to cash in on the ninjutsu name.


You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi. As such, I don't see anything wrong with Hatsumi Sensei telling Bujinkan students not to train with him. I've trained with Hayes, and he is very good at what he does, but it is not Bujinkan, it is his interpretation thereof.

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Cultish how? Apparently, Hatsumi Sensei doesn't want people representing him that have rarely trained with him(if at all).
> 
> Jeff


okay i guess you just implied it? "(if at all)" isn't that what "if at all" implies? don't hate me for exposing your mistakes... just fix them or apologize. no need to get mad at my questions. i'm not here to fight just find the truth.


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## MisterMike (Jul 20, 2004)

"To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages."

From the website I don't think Hayes Sensei is claiming to teach Bujinkan stuff. He does acknowledge he studied there in the 70's however.


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## Kreth (Jul 20, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> okay i guess you just implied it? "(if at all)" isn't that what "if at all" implies? don't hate me for exposing your mistakes... just fix them or apologize. no need to get mad at my questions. i'm not here to fight just find the truth.


The mistake is yours. At the time of that post, several other of Sensei's former students had been mentioned  (besides Hayes), some of whom no longer train with him at all.

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The mistake is yours. At the time of that post, several other of Sensei's former students had been mentioned, some of whom no longer train with him at all.
> 
> Jeff


k then jeff  sorry for the misunderstanding of your imformative post. if you don't want to realize you messed up by trashing a living legend i'll take the fall.
peace


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## gmunoz (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi. As such, I don't see anything wrong with Hatsumi Sensei telling Bujinkan students not to train with him. I've trained with Hayes, and he is very good at what he does, but it is not Bujinkan, it is his interpretation thereof.
> 
> Jeff


Jeff,

Are you, in fact, advocating that that is what Hayes is doing?  Simply gathering photo ops to promote his martial art?  You mentioned you're sure that Japan residents can verify.  I'd be interested to hear of your interactions with them.


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## Don Roley (Jul 20, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> You'll have to point out where I claimed Hayes never trained with Hatsumi Sensei. I'll give you a hint, I never did. I said (and I'll try to use little words for you), that he trained with Sensei for a while, and now rarely does. In fact, I can think of at least a dozen people who by now have more "dirt time" training in Japan than Hayes. I'm sure any of the Japan residents can verify that his visits to Japan these days are little more than photo ops at Honbu Dojo and Togakushi.



Nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in Japan contridicts anything that Jeff (Kreth) has said in this thread.

I think that there may be a problem in understanding how Japanese handle things like this. The following is a quote from a piece by Ellis Amdur on page 172 or Koryu Bujutsu- Calssical Warrior Traditions of Japan.




> Nishioka Tsuneo, master instructor of Shinto Muso-jojutsu said to me in a conversation that for him, the modern day equivelent of hamon (expulsion form a ryu) is to ignore a student who offends him. They are welcome to practice in his dojo, but he will either completely ignore them, or with utter disspasionate indeference "praise" them, saying "fine, that's very good. Carry on."


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## Phipps (Jul 20, 2004)

Ralph,
I belive that you misunderstand me. I am not saying that they lost the feeling, I am saying that they don't have the current feeling. Let me put it this way, if you are training a student at a ninth kyu level and they have a good understanding of this enough that you are willing to have them demonstrate it to new students. If they are absent for a few months but can still do 9th kyu techniques would you have them demonstrate 5th kyu techniques. It is not saying that their techniques are flawed or invalid it's just saying that they are not current with the feeling. This is an extreme example because Stephen K. Hayes' techniques are far beyond this. I am not discounting anything any of these individuals are doing, or trying to show them disrespect it's just not the same as what Hatsumi Sensei is doing right now. As effective as it may be you can't claim to be teaching the same thing if you are not current with teachings as they are now.

Before I get people fired up at me no disrespect is meant just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

Anton Phipps


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## Rob Broad (Jul 20, 2004)

Man o man!  I wanna know how many of you are married to each other because you all squablle like a couple that has been married for too long.


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## r.severe (Jul 20, 2004)

Ralph,
I belive that you misunderstand me. 
**ky, maybe so.. Anton.. this is a forum where people do make mistakes.*****

I am not saying that they lost the feeling, I am saying that they don't have the current feeling. 
**ky, feeling from then and from now&#8230; just ponder this.. Hatsumi sensei has NOT had any of Takamatsu &#8216;feeling&#8217; for a few years too.. say over 20..LOL.. so I would assume you are referring to Hatsumi sensei by what you are saying as well.. right or wrong?
I feel that many misunderstand Hatsumi sensei motion.. it is his.. as well as his &#8216;feeling&#8217;. You cannot have the same as he has or anyone else has. This seems to be a foolish as well as misunderstand many have in martial skills. It is not the way of course to express yourself by expressing other people&#8230; that&#8217;s coping a person.. and I personally don&#8217;t feel that is the right way to walk as a human being or as a martial person. With that I don&#8217;t feel Hatsumi sensei wants or need others to clone him or his movement. Do you think so? 
I would be very impressed to see him hit half as hard as I do or even move as fast as I can with &#8216;real time&#8217; techniques being applied. This would be a trip.. freaky.. 
I feel someone has sold you some idea you need to or have to be like someone else and that&#8217;s silly.. and for that matter a waste of who you are or what you are here for Anton.**************

Now for that reason alone I would like to say I rather stand on my own two feet and be me..
Second I have fighting experience...
Third.. moving like someone in aikido.. but calling it ninpo bugei is ok by me.. and it looks beautiful too.. 
Fighting doesn't look like than.. and I don't believe it ever will..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jul 21, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Dale,
> So basically a few individuals who were actively training in the 70's and 80's basically slowed or stopped their regular regular training with Hatsumi, who continued to move forward with his own research, and are missing the more current info?  The result being that to promote accuracy folks have a '1 or the other, but not both' situation.
> 
> ??



That's essentially correct. The old bugei of Japan typically had three major levels of training: Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden (or comparable terminology, it varied somewhat among different ryu) or, if you prefer, lower, middle, and advanced levels. In the way Hatsumi sensei has been teaching over the years he has not tried to follow precisely the old method of teaching shoden level _portions of a curriculum_ first, then chuden, then okuden in a formal progression: rather, he has spent years teaching material in a "shoden-level conceptual fashion", then the same with chuden, and now okuden as seniors have become more proficient and able to grasp the pertinent aspects.


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## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> The old bugei of Japan typically had three major levels of training: Shoden, Chuden, and Okuden (or comparable terminology, it varied somewhat among different ryu) or, if you prefer, lower, middle, and advanced levels. In the way Hatsumi sensei has been teaching over the years he has not tried to follow precisely the old method of teaching shoden level _portions of a curriculum_ first, then chuden, then okuden in a formal progression: rather, he has spent years teaching material in a "shoden-level conceptual fashion", then the same with chuden, and now okuden as seniors have become more proficient and able to grasp the pertinent aspects.



Hmmm....

Allow me to suggest a possibly different explination.

If you are in the Bujinkan and teaching it, that means that you are a 
_student_ of the Bujinkan. Note the heavy, heavy emphisis I am putting on the concept that you have to be a _student_ of the Bujinkan if you are to be a teacher.

The first time anyone sees a technique, they do not do it to perfection. The next time the teacher gets around to it there will probably be some corrections and further insights made. It may happen the second time, and the third, etc. 

The thing is, there is very little of what you can call "perfection" in the martial arts. Funakoshi is said to have lamented his lack of knowledge about even _a simple punch_ on his deathbed.

As long as you are alive, there is _always_ something more you can learn. No exceptions. There is always something more to learn.

If you claim to be in the Bujinkan, it stands to reason that there will always be something more that you can learn about the Bujinkan method. To think that you know it all is just egotistical folly. In the Bujinkan, the one person that knows more than anyone else is Hatsumi. If you are a low level person, then you can be excused for not going to Hatsumi because there are other people around that more than you and can help you reach a deeper understanding of the art. But if you look around and say that there is no other person in your country that can teach you something about the Bujinkan, there is always Hatsumi.

Take a look at the way Hatusmi trained with Takamatsu. Very early on he got a certificate from Takamatsu naming him the soke of the Togakure ryu. If he wanted to he could have taken that proof and gone off on his own and never seen Takamatsu again. But he did not. The thing that stopped him from trianing with Takamatsu was Takamatsu's death. Until Takamatsu was dead, hatsumi showed up to find out what he could learn from Takamatsu instead of relying on the nowledge and certificates he already had. _Becasue there was still stuff that an experienced person like Takamatsu could teach him!_ Takamatsu had decades more experience in the art than Hatsumi and that never changed as long as Takamatsu was still training. Hatsumi never could get the same time in trainig in the arts Takamatsu trained him in as long as Takamatsu was alive and training. So he kept coming back for more insightsm corrections and lessons based on Takamatsu's superior amount of time with the art.

(As an aside, I do seek out other sources about combat on my own as a student of combative disciplines. But as long as I consider myself a Bujinkan practicioner it stands to reason that I will put priority on getting better at the Bujinkan. I am going to a training weekend in America soon for another art but will show up to training with the teacher I have chosen in the Bujinkan as often as I can.)

So, if you don't go to Hatsumi for _real training_ you are just going through the motions of being a student. Your ego has controlled you so that you will no longer put yourself in a position to let someone correct your mistakes and show in front of others that you still have something to learn.

If you decide there is some other art better for you then great! I know a few people who have left the Bujinkan because they found teachers near them who appealed to them. Jay Bell is one. He is not a student of the Bujinkan anymore, but he still seeks out the best instruction and correction in Systema that he can. 

Again, if you say that you are teaching or studying Bujinkan you have to acknowledge that there is no one better in the Bujinkan than Hatsumi. If you are not getting instruction from another Bujinkan teacher, then your only hope to find someone who can correct and guide you is Hatsumi. So unless you think you know more than Hatsumi, you need to show up and train with him unless you are training with one of his students.


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## r.severe (Jul 21, 2004)

Donny.. Donny shihan... LOL... "So unless you think you know more than Hatsumi, you need to show up and train with him unless you are training with one of his students.:

Can you take the time and tell us if not just me what Hatsumi is really knows other than Japnese history and body movement at 65, 70, 73.. art and dance..? I'm sure he is well read.. but what else?

I hope you are NOT referring to combative martial warrior arts... now now.. you would be telling us he has combative experience.. and this wouldn't be true.. now now Donny shihan.. tell us please..?

He has admitted to not having experience... so.

With no disrespect to the soke... Just because he shows things at stop and go.. action stop and go.. and pulls off a few tricks, writes a few books and makes a few tapes.. doesn't mean anyone should follow him off a cliff.. or in a martial system..

What is it about "him" that keeps you personally so important feeling?

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2004)

As always Ralph, it is hard to know if you truely lack the ability to understand or if you are purposefully trying to confuse the issue and cause trouble.

I do not wish to get into another one of your many, many attacks you have launched on these boards.

Suffice to say, if you claim to study or teach what Hatsumi teaches, you owe it to get the best instruction in what he teaches or use another name. If you do not care to improve yourself in what he teaches, you really have no right to try to use his name to increase business.


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## Kreth (Jul 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Nothing I have seen, heard or experienced in Japan contridicts anything that Jeff (Kreth) has said in this thread.


Thanks, Don.  Someone else asked about my interactions with people in Japan. Well, I'm not going to drag people into the conversation who don't frequent this forum. In fact, some don't actually frequent any of the ninjutsu forums. Let's just say that I've done a bit of asking around to confirm what I'd heard.


			
				Enson said:
			
		

> if you don't want to realize you messed up by trashing a living legend i'll take the fall.


Glad to see the PR is still working for you...

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 21, 2004)

*Admin Warning*

Gentlemen,
  As of late there have been some excellent topical posts in this forum, and I would not like to see those efforts wasted by good threads suddenly becoming a locked-thread graveyard.

  Please leave the personal issues outside, and treat your fellow posters with respect. You may disagree, however do so politely.

Thank you.
The Management.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hmmm....
> 
> Allow me to suggest a possibly different explination.
> 
> ...



Hmmm yourself.    I'd have just said an _additional_ explanation. And you're right -- even the most senior shihan in Japan are still very much students of Hatsumi sensei and learning from him, even though they live right there in Japan and are thus exposed to him constantly.


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## Kreth (Jul 21, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> ...even the most senior shihan in Japan are still very much students of Hatsumi sensei...


Good point, Dale. The problem seems to be that some people have forgotten this in favor of building their ninja empires...

Jeff


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## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Good point, Dale. The problem seems to be that some people have forgotten this in favor of building their ninja empires...



Or keeping their ego intact. It is very, very easy to convince yourself and others that you are the best thing for martial arts since Bruce Lee as long as you do not put yourself in a position to be judged and corrected by a true master.

Even when people show up to Japan, some of them never put themselves in a position for those who know more than them to come over and correct them. Having students to take care of is one good way. Japanese rarely will tear down a person in front of their students. Heck, my teacher once had a night of pain staking correction on some very basic stuff when there was only local students. He apologized to us and said he did not want to embarrass us in front of visitors. The guy from England and I looked at each other and laughted before telling him that if he saw a mistake in what we do we wanted him to point it out anytime and anywhere.

On the other hand, on a positive note, I know of a few people that have perfected the "help- I am lost" look to direct at guys like Noguchi when they walk past.

It is nice when you are praised, but you really learn when your mistakes are held up in front of yoru nose and pointed out so you can see them. It is not the mistakes I know about that worry me, it is the mistakes I do not realize I am making and am drilling into me as part of practice that keeps me coming back week after week to training. And the teachers I go to are notorious for giving out more corrections than rank. It does not make them popular, which leads to another advantage of small class size.


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## Kreth (Jul 21, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I know of a few people that have perfected the "help- I am lost" look to direct at guys like Noguchi when they walk past.


Hell, that's pretty much my constant expression when training in Japan... :anic: 

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 21, 2004)

after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways. (for those that don't train with hatsumi) i do realize that hatsumi is better than me, but i would dare to say there are no eternal reprocussions for not wanting to mimic hatsumi. as don has said many times before... when a person is the head of their art they can make it be whatever they want it to be. just like bujinkan, genbukan, jenikan, klingan...etc. if the head of that organization decides to integrate tkd then so be it. what have we established so far. is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional? well from many post here i would imagine it is not. since he has been modernizing (others say perfecting) his style. even ralph said that he has had over 20 yrs. since he trained with takamatsu. if you wanted to learn what traditional ninjutsu is then you should have trained with takamatsu. but then again who is to say takamatsu knew it all? so let us review:

*bujinkan is whatever hatsumi wants it to be

*the only traditional art would have come from takamatsu or seiko

*there are some really rude people that study the bujinkan (no one on this site of course)
* the japanese as described by don are a little "two faced" and "back stabbing" (all of my japanese clients are some of the best people i know)
*ralph is very knowledgeable when it comes to combat and he has found weaknesses in what he originaly learned and tried to perfect them.

*we fight so much on this forum people think we are married. (like the hapkido guys)

*and i'm still trying to find out what "pr" means. pretty rad? popular & roudy? pretty ripped? (thanks)
*stephen k. hayes should be respected for all he has done for the art of ninjutsu.
again these are just my opinions and aren't ment to be taken out of context, twisted, or whatever. so let the shredding contest begin. who's first? lets just all admit that stephen k. hayes (the reason for this thread) is a great man, and has done more in one life time for the art of ninjutsu than any or us can hope to accomplish. (imo)

alright peace.


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## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2004)

The most amazing thing, Enson, is how you've completely missed a lot of points made in the discussion. Your "summary" indicates you haven't been paying attention at all. 

Oh well, your loss. I guess.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Enson (Jul 21, 2004)

:mp5: :jedi1:  this is to edit.
peace


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## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2004)

Oy vey.


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## Kreth (Jul 21, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> and i'm still trying to find out what "pr" means.


Public Relations. You seem quite enthused with the public image of Hayes. Have you ever trained with the man? I have, and as I said, he's very skilled. I just don't buy all the hype.

Jeff


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## Enson (Jul 21, 2004)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Public Relations. You seem quite enthused with the public image of Hayes. Have you ever trained with the man? I have, and as I said, he's very skilled. I just don't buy all the hype.
> 
> Jeff


fair enough. i am enthused and inspired by hayes. unfortunatley i have never trained with hayes but have trained with a toshindo practicioner. good art and skill level all across the board.:ultracool


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## Kreth (Jul 21, 2004)

Well, to be honest, I have trained with both Bujinkan and To Shin Do people who were very good, and those who sucked. I think it's more the learning abilities of the student and the fit of the training to their personality than it is a superiority of one system over the other. I've also trained with Ralph, and some of the ideas he was showing worked very well for me, some didn't. 
I don't know about others, but one of the things I dislike about Hayes and his To Shin Do program (and this kind of carries over from his Nine Gates Institute days), is the way he compartmentalizes the training. For me, working on a concept with say, a bo, then working on the same concept empty-hand helps me internalize it much better. Or even working on various henka of the same technique. For me, I get a better sense of the flow than: Monday nights: Kihon Happo, Tuesday nights: Sword training, etc...

Jeff


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## Jay Bell (Jul 21, 2004)

> after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways. (for those that don't train with hatsumi) i do realize that hatsumi is better than me, but i would dare to say there are no eternal reprocussions for not wanting to mimic hatsumi. as don has said many times before... when a person is the head of their art they can make it be whatever they want it to be. just like bujinkan, genbukan, jenikan, klingan...etc. if the head of that organization decides to integrate tkd then so be it. what have we established so far. is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional? well from many post here i would imagine it is not. since he has been modernizing (others say perfecting) his style. even ralph said that he has had over 20 yrs. since he trained with takamatsu. if you wanted to learn what traditional ninjutsu is then you should have trained with takamatsu. but then again who is to say takamatsu knew it all? so let us review:



From what you're saying, it seems that you're attempting to understand Japanese though processes using American thought.

The nine ryu that Hatsumi sensei posseses are his, period.  It's not a democracy.  He *owns* the arts, and the organization of the Bujinkan.  He's the monarch, end of discussion.



> is what hatsumi sensei teaching traditional?



Define tradition?  If you're asking is he following a type of training found in Japanese history, then yes.



> *bujinkan is whatever hatsumi wants it to be



Just as any Soke is when they are the head of a school.



> *there are some really rude people that study the bujinkan (no one on this site of course)



That goes without saying.  There are rude people in any martial art.



> * the japanese as described by don are a little "two faced" and "back stabbing" (all of my japanese clients are some of the best people i know)



Again, American viewpoints on Japanese ways of doing things.  We have a perticular idea of 'honor' in the West.  The Japanese idea of honor is much different.  Things that we may view as "two faced" or "deceitful" here in the west, are something of the norm in Japan at times.  And vice-versa.  Japan is a different culture, through and through.



> *we fight so much on this forum people think we are married. (like the hapkido guys)



I think you put much more weight in our squabbles then we do.


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## Enson (Jul 21, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> From what you're saying, it seems that you're attempting to understand Japanese though processes using American thought.


that is the only thought process i know. since i am... american


> The nine ryu that Hatsumi sensei posseses are his, period. It's not a democracy. He *owns* the arts, and the organization of the Bujinkan. He's the monarch, end of discussion.


i agree with you



> Define tradition? If you're asking is he following a type of training found in Japanese history, then yes.


*tradition*
_noun_ 

Something immaterial, as a style or philosophy, that is passed from one generation to another: heritage, inheritance, legacy. _See _affect.
A body of traditional beliefs and notions accumulated about a particular subject: folklore, legend, lore, myth, mythology, mythos. _See _knowledge
if yes, says who? is that what you believe? how are you so sure that hatsumi isn't using his own mma? didn't he study other arts before? (real question) this is not to argue... just curious. i believe that we all become part of our lives experience. 


> Just as any Soke is when they are the head of a school.


i agree



> That goes without saying. There are rude people in any martial art.


are you sure or is that all you have been exposed to?



> Again, American viewpoints on Japanese ways of doing things. We have a perticular idea of 'honor' in the West. The Japanese idea of honor is much different. Things that we may view as "two faced" or "deceitful" here in the west, are something of the norm in Japan at times. And vice-versa. Japan is a different culture, through and through.


i agree. i lived in costa rica for 3 yrs. so i know a little about different cultures. i even visited panama and nicaragua



> I think you put much more weight in our squabbles then we do.


not too much weight. i still sleep at night.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 21, 2004)

I looked into my user CP and saw that someone gave me negative feedback for this thread asking me if, "Are you trying to cause trouble".  I asked a simple question what is Stephen K. Hayes role in today's Ninjutsu.  Several people have blown this thread into anything but the answer, they are arguing about who is part of what org and so on.   I'll refrain from asking simple questions in this area in the future so I don't set off any more smoke alarms.


P.S.
Thanks for the negative feedback.


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## r.severe (Jul 21, 2004)

Enson
after reading all the post on this site which was suppose to be about stephen k. hayes... it seems like we end up back where we begin. talking about how hatsumi sensei is better than everyone else, and everyone should just realize that and correct there ways. 


My friend this says it all..
This is why you can't get away from those guys..
Hatsumi sensei is nothing more than a human being.
Like I stated, 
Hayes shihan
Manaka shihan
Tanemura sensei
Mark OBrian shihan
Of course a few others....

Have done more here in America than the soke has when it comes to teaching the ryuha...

By the way Jay, Hatsumi sensei doesn't own the ryuha..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Dale Seago (Jul 22, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Mark OBrian shihan



Who, much as I love him, has been barred by Soke from training (even though he lives in Japan) for the last couple or three years due to his alcoholism, public drunk & disorderly incidents, etc. . . .



> By the way Jay, Hatsumi sensei doesn't own the ryuha..



That is, quite simply, wrong. "Owning the ryuha" is part of what being a Soke is about.

Unless, as it appears, you're thinking of ryuha in a simplistic and limited sense as _mokuraku_ or formal curricula of waza and kata.


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## r.severe (Jul 22, 2004)

As for the ideas of owning...
As a non-theist.. my feelings are you never own anything.
I can only see this from the mind of a theist.. owning something.. what ego.

As a warrior student and guide of warrior skills.. I cannot understand this idea of owning something when the idea is totally agaisnt the law of nature..

As a human being.. we are trapped by our own ego and fear.. understanding this I can imagine the need for human beings to have faith and belief in owning something.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## althaur (Jul 22, 2004)

Anyone else feel like they just got a sermon???  If you think it is a bad thing to think of ownership(wicked ego and all), can I have your car?

Anyhoo, on to Mr. Hayes and the topic.  He was the guy that had me buying all the Martial Arts mags int he 80's!  Everyone else in the US was riding his coat tails with the fad that followed.  He cashed in on it.  Nothing wrong with that.  I even had his books.  He did present himself in a way that made his importance in Japan seem a lot bigger than it was though.  Granted, that is showmanship, and business.  I think people started to drift away when they realized that wasn't the case though.  People found out that anyone could go do the exact same thing he did.  He went his own way.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  As far as I know, he does acknowledge his roots and doesn't claim to be teaching what Sensei is teaching, unlike some others that continually seem to bite the hand the USED to feed them.

Josh


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## heretic888 (Jul 22, 2004)

> I can only see this from the mind of a theist.. owning something.. what ego.



*laughs* Yes, because atheists _never_ believe in the concept of private ownership.  

You might have a hard time passing that one by some of my 'atheist capitalist' friends.


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## r.severe (Jul 22, 2004)

HA ha ha ha LOL... Nice try. but still no way...
Hey let me know if you know anyone who took any "owership" to their grave...
By the way here is a simple example for the misunderstood... in the State of Texas you can't own a car, house and land.
The state will always own them.. LOL..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## heretic888 (Jul 22, 2004)

*raises eyebrow* Uhhhhh.... ookay.  :idunno:


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## Shogun (Jul 22, 2004)

My opinions on "owning the ryuha":


Think of it as this. Someone inherits 20,000 dollars. Now,... their money may look the same as another person's money, but they own it. They can, and have the will, to spend it as they choose. No one (excluding government, IRS, and the works) can claim the money, or do anything with it without permission. It is theirs. Same as a Ryuha. if someone recieves it, it is theirs. The skills may be like other peoples (it happens, _see money_) but it is pretty much theirs to mold.


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## Don Roley (Jul 22, 2004)

Guys,
We are getting into serious thread drift here.

This thread is not about how anyone can use, teach and produce videotapes using the name "Kamiyama Ninpo" because Ralph Severe does not believe anyone can own a martial art. The fact that he has just signed away any chance of suing people that do use the name based on what he has written here is not the subject of the thread.

The thread is about Stephen Hayes. Can we get back on subject? Without screaming, insults or attacks on others?


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## Shogun (Jul 22, 2004)

I like Steven Hayes.


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## r.severe (Jul 22, 2004)

I like Steven Hayes too.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Shogun (Jul 22, 2004)

I watch his "classical" Taijutsu DVD. It good. I also have some Shoden level stuff.


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## r.severe (Jul 23, 2004)

I like Steven Hayes...
I also like other martial artist.
The last tapes I saw of Hayes shihan was.. "the wave" and his "ranking tapes"..
Very good stuff.
I believe I will focus on getting a few more of his new DVDs..
ok..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## tmanifold (Jul 23, 2004)

Hayes probably did more to bring Ninjutsu and the Booj to the forefront in the west then any single person. He introduced the West to Hatsumi's skills and as such deserves a debt of gratitude. How many people here would never have heard of The Booj or Hatsumi sensei if it wasn't for him? Is he the top western student of Hatsum sensei? No , I think that has been shown but I haven't seen him claim that since the 80's even then I think he claimed 1st. The guy is a class act from what I can tell and even now that he has gone on to his own thing he hasn't left with the bad blood some others have. He still considers Hatsumi Sensei his teacher and gives him the respect. 

It is a shame some people seem to feel the need to slam him in response to some percieved disrespect. 

Remember, if it wasn't for him there is a good chance Ninjustsu would still be synonamous with Ronald Duncan and Frank Dux.


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## Enson (Jul 23, 2004)

i think everyone knows that i like hayes!:ultracool  i believe the man should be respected and honored for his accomplishments.


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## Deaf (Jul 26, 2004)

Well it isn't a matter of whether or not you like the guy or not.  The question at the beginning of this thread simply asked what is Hayes in regards to modern day ninjutsu.  Well my opinion is nothing.  He is pretty much wrapped up in his own hybrid called ToShinDo with it's own Shihans etc.

The fact of the matter is that Hatsumi has asked that people who train with SKH not be allowed to train in the Bujinkan and vice versa.  Simply because Hayes has not been training with him for quite some time and because of this, Hayes has missed a LOT of what he has been teaching.  Sounds pretty simple to me and understandable.  

Think of it like this.  You have a two doctors both cardiologists and belonging to the AMA.  Now the AMA requires these doctors to attend training to keep their skills up to date etc.  Now doctor #1 has decided to take his skills and market them by opening up his own clinic, teach seminars to the masses and only attends a couple of training sessions very few years.  Doctor #2 has opened up his own clinic as well, teach seminars however he goes to every training session and is continually working on his skills as well.  Guess what...doctor #1 is banned by the AMA because his knowledge has become outdated.  His skill may still be really good and you may love the dear guy but doctor #2 has the most recent knowledge and understanding about the new technologies.

Now taking that in to mind...can you really blame Hatsumi Sensei for banning learning from Hayes or any other people who have not been training consistently with Hatsumi Sensei from the bujinkan?

I do NOT consider this an ego thing as R. Severe seems to suggest.  I consider it just common sense on keeping the art alive and being taught with the correct and up to date information.

FWIW,

Michael


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## r.severe (Jul 26, 2004)

The fact of the matter is that Hatsumi has asked that people who train with SKH not be allowed to train in the Bujinkan and vice versa. Simply because Hayes has not been training with him for quite some time and because of this, Hayes has missed a LOT of what he has been teaching. Sounds pretty simple to me and understandable. 

Michael, if that is true about Hayes shihan not training with Hatsumi sensei for a few years then what about Hatsumi sensei not training with Takamatsu sensei for well over 20 years?
Take some time to ponder that.....
This 'deal' with Bujinkan people saying if you haven't trained with Hatsumi sensei is totally out of line and even if Hatsumi sensei has said this this is totally silly..
The time students do not train with their teachers, if they have a great deal of experiece already, in my opinion makes them even better human beings as well as martial students...
You really cannot refine your skills if your head is stuck in the teachers Dojo every week.. This is really a fact of any skills.. being football to tea..

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## heretic888 (Jul 27, 2004)

> Michael, if that is true about Hayes shihan not training with Hatsumi sensei for a few years then what about Hatsumi sensei not training with Takamatsu sensei for well over 20 years?



An artificial argument, considering Takamatsu is quite dead.


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## gmunoz (Jul 27, 2004)

Deaf said:
			
		

> I do NOT consider this an ego thing as R. Severe seems to suggest. I consider it just common sense on keeping the art alive and being taught with the correct and up to date information.
> 
> FWIW,
> 
> Michael


Correct and up to date.  Well, I guess what everyone has said regarding the ever-evolving Bujinkan is true.  If this is true then Hatsumi must have been teaching something else in his early days.  Others have said he is teaching as Takamatsu taught him.  How can that be so if it is still needing to be "updated?"  Pretty interesting.  If Bujinkan can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here...


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## Deaf (Jul 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Correct and up to date.  Well, I guess what everyone has said regarding the ever-evolving Bujinkan is true.  If this is true then Hatsumi must have been teaching something else in his early days.  Others have said he is teaching as Takamatsu taught him.  How can that be so if it is still needing to be "updated?"  Pretty interesting.  If Bujinkan can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here...




Dude...taijutsu is ever evolving thus changing all the time.  Why do you think it has survived as long as it has!?

What I meant by the "updated material" is the more advanced stuff that Hatsumi Sensei is teaching now.  In his earlier days, Hatsumi Sensei was teaching very simple stuff compared to what he is teaching now (from what I have gathered from various higher ranking students)  thus what your dearly beloved SKH knew 10 or 20 years ago barely scratches the surface of what Hatsumi Sensei was/is teaching.  So if you take that into account, what SKH is simply teaching is over 10 or 20 years behind what is currently being taught and he would probably be totally lost if he attended classes now or he may not be...!?  However this is really a moot point since SKH is teaching ToShinDo now.  Why worry about it!  Just do what you want and keep training with what makes you happy  Just be aware that what you are learning is what SKH learned quite a few years ago and had refined to his liking and is not Bujinkan.

~Deaf~


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## Deaf (Jul 27, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> An artificial argument, considering Takamatsu is quite dead.




I agree!


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> An artificial argument, considering Takamatsu is quite dead.



And it's my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong...

Hatsumi Sensei continued to go and learn from Takamatsu even AFTER Takamatsu turned "ownership" of the arts over to Hatsumi.

The big logical failure in your Arguemnet Ralph, is this...

Hatsumi continues to change, evolve and expand his teachings.  Since Takamatsu is dead, he has not made any changes/insights/advancements to the art, therefore aruging that Hatsumi is "behind in his training" because he does not train with Takamatsu is, at best, stupid.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Correct and up to date.  Well, I guess what everyone has said regarding the ever-evolving Bujinkan is true.  If this is true then Hatsumi must have been teaching something else in his early days.  Others have said he is teaching as Takamatsu taught him.  How can that be so if it is still needing to be "updated?"  Pretty interesting.  If Bujinkan can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here...



What part of the story is "not straight" Gmunoz? 

The techniques are the same-same as they have always been... but the methods for using them, the applications they are applied against, the types of body movements used to emply them... those have been modified, refined, etc... 

For an art to be effective, IMHO, that HAS to happen.  The world, weapons, fighting techniques, society... those things are not static.  Learning "An attacker will come at you with their right foot forward and a right hand attack only" because tradition teaches that is a truism based on society 300+ years ago is a stupid way to train today...   If you look at how the 'Kan trains... The "Basic 8" in its early years, are still taught today.  The difference is, all the Kihon Happo movements were taught big and fancy back at the beginning, and now are taught smaller, less movement, more effective.  The big movements were taught to learn the techniques, the small ones to learn to apply the techniques.  Same same, but different.  

However you look at this, the obvious truth is:

Whatever Mr. Hayes teaches now in his ToShinDo, is HIS interpretation of the old teachings of the Bujinkan, they are not the same things being taught in the Bujinkan today.  I wont argue here which is better/worse/or if they are equal in effectivness... its simply a different art that comes from the same roots.  IF you think Mr. Hayes is teaching QUEST exactly the same as he taught Shadows of Iga, fine... if not, as a Bujinkan guy, lemme throw your argument back at you a second... 

"People say that Hayes is teaching the same thing he learned in the Bujinkan. How can that be so if it is still  being "updated?" Pretty interesting. If Toshindo can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here..."


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## heretic888 (Jul 27, 2004)

> Hatsumi Sensei continued to go and learn from Takamatsu even AFTER Takamatsu turned "ownership" of the arts over to Hatsumi.



That's what I've been told and/or read, as well. Apparently, Takamatsu-soke gave Hatsumi the titles to the various ryuha very early in because he possessed the proper "spirit". Hatsumi continued to train with Takamatsu many, many years beyond that point.

Of course, I'm sure one of the Big Guys can come by and tell us for sure any time now.


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## Enson (Jul 27, 2004)

fwiw... i wouldn't call anyone stupid here but thats just me.

i think what people are trying to say is that hatusmi took what he was taught and enhanced it to make it practicle for today. what was once togakure ryu he changed to bujinkan and made it practicle ninjutsu. so in a sense... yes it should evolve and get better.

the same with hayes he took what he was taught and made it better for him. so hatsumi couldn't train with toshindo or he would be really lost because its hayes's toshindo.

so in a sense unless you learned the orginal togakure ryu you were/are not learning real ninjutsu. so now that hatsumi has changed it, it no longer can be called ninjutsu but bujinkan... just like hayes can no longer call it ninjutsu but toshindo. 

i'm not trying to down or trash anyone all i'm saying is that hatsumi took a concept and made it better for him. so did hayes. the only thing is hayes gets bashed for it while hatsumi is praised. who is right? depends on who you ask. i believe there is a whole lot of bias in here so it just depends on how many of one group/style/class/school we have in here. if there are more buji then hatsumi will be right and everyone else wrong... if toshindo then hayes will remain correct. :mp5: :jedi1: 

again thats my opinion


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## Jay Bell (Jul 27, 2004)

Enson,

I think you're looking at the "changing" of Hatsumi sensei's teaching different from how it happens.  Example...you can take a very low level waza in a ryu and re-learn it countless times.  As your development, understanding and skills change, so does the waza itself.  Applying high-level methods and theories to a low level waza "changes" it...but it's still the same.


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## Enson (Jul 27, 2004)

Jay Bell said:
			
		

> Enson,
> 
> I think you're looking at the "changing" of Hatsumi sensei's teaching different from how it happens. Example...you can take a very low level waza in a ryu and re-learn it countless times. As your development, understanding and skills change, so does the waza itself. Applying high-level methods and theories to a low level waza "changes" it...but it's still the same.


i understand what your saying and that is a good example. the only thing is i believe some think that hayes just got togakure and just one day decided to change it and call it something else... if he did well i don't know. i think it evolved so much that he decided to call it something else. i think gmunoz can give more info on this. being he is a toshindo practicioner. i think i read something like that on his site. i don't remember to well.
peace


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## tmanifold (Jul 27, 2004)

So basically you are saying ToShinDo and Budo TaiJutsu are not the same. It's been eight pages over that? Let me be the first to say, "thanks Tips". As for not training with the other, why? And who is Hatsumi to say who a student can and can not train with? If I had  BB in ToShindo, for example, and I wanted to train with the booj whats stopping me? If I go to the Booj as a white belt, I don't even see the slightest problem. Now thinking that a BB in TSD means a BB the Booj or vice verse could cause a problem. It would be like a black belt in Shotokan starting to train at another Karate dojo and wearing his black belt. It is just plain ego.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 27, 2004)

Before you put your foot down over something you evidently have very little understanding about, Hatsumi sensei is the Soke.  What he says goes.  If you don't like it, don't study with the Bujinkan.

The idea here is that former students are teaching in a manner that is much different from what he is trying to convey in his students.  That difference can cause issues with understanding and development under his umbrella.


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## gmunoz (Jul 27, 2004)

Response from Hayes sensei to the following inquiry:

*"I am very interested to hear the specific differences between what Hatsumi-sensei taught to Mr. Hayes as the "ninja arts" and what is being taught now."*

Here are just a few thoughts. Of course, there are way too many to include in a forum like this.

There was heavy emphasis on what 16th Century aggressors would throw at a defender. These attacks were based on the ways people moved, the way they dressed, and the environmental conditions of those days. (We never went into anything like defending against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, and small group verbal-hassle-and-test surprise muggings because those were not things that were threats in the 1500s.)

Every technique ended with the aggressor on the ground maimed to the point of total immobilization, and more often than not, dead or dying. (No legal system to protect or prosecute defenders in those days...)

Many of the kamae and techniques were performed in odd ways designed to keep the aggressor from seeing the face of the defender.

Many of the techniques involved unusual hidden weapons that would be impossible, impractical, and illegal today for anyone but some sort of counter-intelligence agent. (How to tear the face off with a circular swipe of the shuko, etc) And if you are a counter-intelligence agent today, modern technological developments far outshine the capabilities of these crude 500 year old iron, bamboo, and string implements.

There were all sorts of methods demonstrated for escaping burning buildings with tatami floors and cedar plank ceilings, walking through Japanese gardens designed to detect intruders, etc.

The biggest difference was the ninja mind set. Hatsumi Sensei told me in 1982 that he did not believe many people could fully grasp the ninja way of thinking and seeing ("Only 2 or 3 in a generation, if that many..." were his words). I disagreed with him strongly at the time, even argued with him about it (politely, of course). Throughout the 1980s I tried to teach the ninjutsu that I had learned from him in Japan in the 1970s, even though it had been "retired" in Japanese dojo.

By the time I got to the 1990s, I had come to understand totally what he was trying to tell me. I completely agree with Hatsumi Sensei's views on the inadvisability of teaching authentic ninjutsu at this point. (Yes, I am aware that there are people teaching Bujinkan taijutsu and calling it ninjutsu, but I doubt the authenticity of their methods as real ninjutsu if they did not spend a lot of time with Hatsumi Sensei in the 1970s or me in the 1980s) When I started my school in 1996, I moved ninjutsu to the background and offered a modern adaptation that was much more appropriate for the times.

- Stephen K. Hayes​


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Response from Hayes sensei to the following inquiry:
> 
> 
> There was heavy emphasis on what 16th Century aggressors would throw at a defender. These attacks were based on the ways people moved, the way they dressed, and the environmental conditions of those days. (We never went into anything like defending against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, and small group verbal-hassle-and-test surprise muggings because those were not things that were threats in the 1500s.)
> ...


 

Gmunoz, thanks for the post.

It does, amongst other things, emphasize that if Mr. Hayes feels that way now, that he is indeed out of touch with the way many things are currently taught in the bujinkan.  (at least in the limited scope of my training).  We do indeed train against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, etc... if he wasnt taught that back then, and still believes it is not being taught... he is missing some of the current Bujinkan.  I think it was great he could recognize that was lacking... I dont neccessarily believe he needed to leave the Bujinkan over it... but he felt confident in doing his own thing. 



			
				Mr Hayes said:
			
		

> Yes, I am aware that there are people teaching Bujinkan taijutsu and calling it ninjutsu, but I doubt the authenticity of their methods as real ninjutsu if they did not spend a lot of time with Hatsumi Sensei in the 1970s or me in the 1980s)



This is somthing I am totaly ignorant of... so I am asking... What of students of other students of Hatsumi durring that same time period?  Is Hayes implying with that comment he is the only one Hatsumi Sensei taught authentic ninjutsu to that actually taught it to others?   if so, is that actually accurate?


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> fwiw... i wouldn't call anyone stupid here but thats just me.



I didn't call anyone stupid... I called a particular notion stupid.  It wouldnt matter who said it.


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## Enson (Jul 27, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I didn't call anyone stupid... I called a particular notion stupid. It wouldnt matter who said it.


i understand now that i went back and read what you said. it could have been taken that way though.

gmunoz thanks for that post. it cleared up alot of things for me.

technopunk, well i guess it would be his original students that were taught authentic ninjutsu per what hayes says.


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## r.severe (Jul 27, 2004)

These are some really great points... on the subject..

Hatsumi sensei is soke.. but what is the big deal?
He controls his Bujinkan Dojo with request like don't train with so and so..
This is like saying don't look outside my bible or you're going to he((...
What can a man fear the most?
Himself?

"Hatsumi continues to change, evolve and expand his teachings. Since Takamatsu is dead, he has not made any changes/insights/advancements to the art, therefore aruging that Hatsumi is "behind in his training" because he does not train with Takamatsu is, at best, stupid."

One point is I have not been called stupid in many years..
The point of Hatsumi sensei making changes is more or less like saying Tanemura sensei changing, Manaka sensei, Ralph Severe, Steve Hayes, etc.. and there is a problem wuth their changing, expanding technique and growing..?
I do not see any 'stupid' in these points.
Please point them out if you can.
I never said Hatsumi sensei was behind in anything.. now did I?
I feel that's a twisted and a simple agenda to mislead what I said.

The point being, Takamatsu sensei is dead.. true..
So the point being.. Hatsumi sensei has no teacher..
So how has he grown and others haven't grown outside their teachers supervision and how are the ones who do their own thing any different from Hatsumi sensei?

Hatsumi sensei is no different from any other man alive..
We all change..
We all grow..
We all expand..

My point is the more you follow Hatsumi sensei the more you cannot experience combative ryuha waza....

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Cryozombie (Jul 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> technopunk, well i guess it would be his original students that were taught authentic ninjutsu per what hayes says.



Right... but what I am asking is this... Hatsumi sensei had a lot of students PRIOR to Mr. Hayes, and at the same time... that went on to teach.  In his statement he said that only DIRECT STUDENTS of Hatsumi or Himself learned authentic Ninjutsu... my question was regarding Hatsumi's other students at that time... did any of them go on to teach "Authentic" ninjutsu, or only Hayes?


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## gmunoz (Jul 27, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It does, amongst other things, emphasize that if Mr. Hayes feels that way now, that he is indeed out of touch with the way many things are currently taught in the bujinkan. (at least in the limited scope of my training). We do indeed train against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, etc... if he wasnt taught that back then, and still believes it is not being taught... he is missing some of the current Bujinkan. I think it was great he could recognize that was lacking...


 
Hayes sensei is making reference to how he and others were trained with Hatsumi; how back in those times there were none of those things taught as they were not a peril of the day.  He isn't saying that that is how Bujinkan trains currently.  It is for that reason that Hayes sensei states that anyone that didn't train back then didn't learn real ninjutsu.  If Bujinkan is now teaching the boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, etc., then indeed Bujinkan, as well as others have updated their systems as well.  The Bujinkan taught taught today is NOT as Takamatsu taught Hatsumi sensei.


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## Jay Bell (Jul 27, 2004)

> The Bujinkan taught taught today is NOT as Takamatsu taught Hatsumi sensei.



You were there, I presume?


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## r.severe (Jul 28, 2004)

I am sure Takamatsu sensei was a total warrior with a great deal of knowadge and fighting ability.

But from what I have seen on the Takamatsu sensei DVD by Hatsumi sensei.. I would say there is a great deal of difference in the two guides... of the ryuha.

I do not feel that Hatsumi sensei was trained in all the ryuha gata.. completely.. but I could be mistaken.. but that would be a great under taking for a man of that age to go through for 15 years with such a younger man like Hatsumi sensei...

Like Hatsumi sensei I research a great deal into Japanese ryu and find a great deal of wonderful information.. to use...that is outside the Bujinkan ryu.

For what worth this might be...
I feel there has been many stages in the Bujinkan growth over the past 25 years..
I feel the growth didn't really take off until Tanemura sensei did his thing and then Manaka sensei did his thing.. then followed Hayes shihan.. now others..
Hatsumi sensei has not been as responsible directly for the growth like these others and others to follow..  

But for example there is a difference between Bussey sensei, Hayes shihan, Richard Van Donk shihan, Myself, and others in the different stages of growth in the USA.....

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jul 28, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> But from what I have seen on the Takamatsu sensei DVD by Hatsumi sensei.. I would say there is a great deal of difference in the two guides... of the ryuha.
> 
> I do not feel that Hatsumi sensei was trained in all the ryuha gata.. completely.



First of all, I am calling attention to the fact that Ralph Severe has always claimed that no one could say anything less than flattering about him unless he had trained under Severe. But unless Severe can show proof that he knew Takamatsu, I would expect this post to be held up in the future when he tries that dodge.

Secondly, let us look at the time Hatsumi spent under Takamatsu. Every week he could he showed up to train with Takamatsu. That only ended when Takamatsu died. So we are talking about classes for well over a decade on a weekly basis.

And when he trained with Takamatsu, the majority of the time was one on one training for as long as they could. Personal training, not one guy out of a few hundred.

Oh yes, and let us not forget that when Takamatsu spoke Hatsumi understood him with a native level of Japanese. How many round eyes can say they have that level of understanding?

So, can people like Stephen Hayes, Ralph Severe, etc can show training experience even close to this? When most of us train with Hatsumi, it is with several people in the same room. If you go to a tai kai or a seminar, it is even more people for one teacher. If you are not liked by the Japanese, you are more likely to just be ignored or praised or maybe asked to teach rather than get the correction and guidence that will help you get better.

In short, it is kind of sickening to see people with so little experience in actual training under a real instructor try to tear down Hatsumi to try to make themselves look better.

Oh yeah, this thread is supposed to be about Stephen Hayes and not how little training some _non-Bujinkan members_ want people to believe Hatsumi had with Takamatsu. Can we get back on track, or are certain people unwilling to drop the red herring they are throwing out to divert attention?


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## r.severe (Jul 28, 2004)

Good post by the way... I give it 8 out of 10.


Dear Mr. Severe,

I was looking at your website and your posts over the past while and I a few questions arose in my mind. If you have the time and the inclination I would be grateful if you answered them. 

1. Why did you leave the bujinkan?
****ky, I have not left the Bujinkan Dojo. I have my own system I teach through now and do not use the Bujinkan Dojo ranking system. The path I seek is pragmatic, progressive I nature and based on the law of nature. I use the TCJ as a base but fine it has NO training methodology, fitness, health, first aid, firearms, weaponry in general, survival in urban and woodland conflicts, fighting tactics against muti attackers, etc.. for me and for my system so I have to blend what works in harmony with the TCJ and update these outlines yearly.******** 
2. If you are aggrieved or do not respect their ranking structure and the ability of the grades why do you not distance yourself from that organization and their rank and not mention it?
****ky, This is a very good question. It is the responsibility of all warrior guides to share their experience with those who need direction. Like most people who train in martial arts they do not know a great deal about what they follow or see as truth. I&#8217;m just another voice to open up minds to seek truth. It really has nothing to do with the Bujinkan per say.*********
3. Do you use Bujinkan methods in your syllabus?
****ky, if you view my web site the answers to that are very clear. One place to look would be under &#8220;private lesson&#8221;, Japanese weaponry. You&#8217;ll see that your question can be answered with a little research.********
4. Do you think that you know enough about these techniques to teach them properly if you do teach them?
****ky, I have trained in many Japanese systems and their techniques. I don&#8217;t feel I have mastered any of techniques. But on the other hand I do have experience in fighting. Which is the base for the ryuha gata. I believe that is what they are for if I am correct by saying that. But the members of the Bujinkan seem to not find that a question or priority in their training or a question to be asked about Hatsumi sensei. I feel I have the ability to teach the ryuha gata very well. Much like Hatsumi sensei was given the soke &#8211; ship of the ryuha long before he trained in them. Strange..*********
5. Do you have any previous law enforcement or military training?
****ky, I might. But I cannot find how this is a question about warrior training or teaching there of.*******
6. What qualifications in other martial arts do possess?
****ky, This also can be read on my web site.*********
7. What qualifications in fitness do you posses?
*****ky, I do not understand this question.********
8. What qualifications in firearms and firearms training do you posses?
****ky, I have a great deal of firearms experience and firearms gunsmith. I train military, law enforcement, laymen and special laymen in basic, and advance firearms tactics. I&#8217;m also considered a marksman with a pistol and rifle. ***********
9. On what basis do you teach your home defense classes?
****ky, I do not understand this question as it is asked.**********
10.What is the source of you animosity towards Dale Seago and Don Roley?
****ky, I do not have any animosity towards these two human beings. They on the other hand do have it towards me and this is clear. I just enjoy playing with them because they are so immature over the web. Don&#8217;t you agree? They are totally funny with their ego and fear towards others.***********
11.Why do you continue you comment on the Bujinkan if you are no longer a member?
****ky, Go back to question one.***************
12. What evidence of fighting experience do you have outside of martial arts style challenges?
****ky, I have people who have seen me fight many times in the street. But during the 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s I failed to carry a pen and paper to get names and address of those who I beat up or who watched and I didn&#8217;t carry a camera with me. I do have many scars on my hands from teeth if that counts LOL..
This is really a void question because no one in their right mind would keep any record of any fights they had if they were sane. This could get you jail time.************** 
13. Do you engage in this kind of fighting on a regular basis?
****ky, no. I have not had a street fight in many many years. The last one was in 1998 with sticks.********
14. Do you encourage your students to do so?
***ky, HA HA HA no way. I&#8217;m a Buddhist and very peaceful in my nature.*************
15. If you do are you in nay concerned about legal repercussions?
****ky, I do not understand the question.*******
15. Are you a career martial artist(ie. it is the main source of your income)?
****ky, yes and no. I&#8217;m also an artist.***************
16. What is your understanding of the bujinkan grading system?
****ky, there is none.*************************
17. What do you think is the basis of all good martial arts?
****ky, happiness and peace.*************
18. What do you think constitutes a good grading system? 
****ky, totally understanding of the levels of body, mind and heart in a living enviroment.*********

Thank you for your time. In reading this. My interest is purely for entertainment purposes and my curiosity in what makes you conduct yourself in the particular fashion that you do. If you chose not to answer I will more than understand.

Regards,
G.R.  UK


ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 28, 2004)

*Admin Note:*
Gentlemen...Take the personal issues elsewhere.

You will notice I did not say "Please" as this is not a request.

The short version is: "· Be respectful of the other arts, and your fellow members."

If anyone is confused, I suggest reviewing the rules here, where it gets into more depth:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=314

Bob Hubbard,
MartialTalk Owner.


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## Don Roley (Jul 28, 2004)

I have been complaining about thread drift.

The last post by Ralph Severe has nothing at all to do with this thread. It is just another case of him promoting himself and hijacking a thread to gain students. This time it is really, really blatent! The questions he is answering were not asked in this thread. They were not even asked on this message board!

So instead of talking about SKH, we are hearing Ralph talk about himself again.


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## r.severe (Jul 28, 2004)

Well the correlation between Hayes shihan and myself are the same as far as the Bujinkan is concerned.
I was just making this well known by putting forth this example I posted Donny shihan.
The point being I will answer questions from anyone and keep my post completely honest. This is the point of a forum. 

I feel if you take the time to read the post you will find the reason I post them.


ralph severe, kamiyama


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