# dishonesty in the FMA



## thekuntawman (May 8, 2003)

i was reading the "emtpy hand FMA" post, and i decided to post my reply in a separate thread.

the misconceptions of the FMA has made many teachers dishonest, and the most hurtful ones came from pilipino teachers. we all read books and magazines. now a few years ago, no filipino teacher wanted to admit that his art does not have all those things danny inosanto said the FMA is suppose to have, like kinomutai, emtpy hand=knife=stick, dumug, etc. so what happened you have teachers adopting the "kali" name, because they thought this makes his art looked more authentic. because remember, kali is the "mother art"  

when edgar sulite came out with his millions of drills, now, every filipino teacher has to get a whole bunch of new drills to add to the few they already have. then remy presas with the "flow" every filipino style has to have it. etc.

the new thing today is kuntao/silat, or to adopt what they think is kuntao/silat into the art they do, and not call it silat or kuntao/kuntaw. i have to say about 75% of the "kuntao/silat" is made up (recently, meaning no real lineage except for a few years ago), and 99% of the FILIPINO kuntaw/kuntao is not kuntaw from the philippines. oh, now they are saying kuntaw is fukkien chinese, and has hsing-yi, and pa kua. i say ********. all of those guys i knew them then and i know them now, they are passing off kung fu knowledge for filipino martial arts now. i can name a whole lot of names, but i am not wanting to make enemies right now.

with videos going around, now people can easily take philippine martial arts technique, and call it there own style, or disguise it to be WMA western martial arts. one guy about 4 years ago came to my school and showed me some kind of scottish double sword fighting. it was sinawali. when bravehart II comes out we can see some more of their WMA swordfighting. oh, and then now we find roman "gladiator fighting" they recently discovered. that makes as much sense as greek "mu tau" kickboxing. and the real origin of SPANIARD espada Y daga, that the filipino learned from the conquistador.

pride, arrogance and greed can be blamed for an old tradition, which is, learning from other arts and teachers. many of the old filipino teachers have no problem to say, they learned some judo and shotokan and tae kwon do. they use to study with doce pares or beng kiam. they made their own styles and they can prove that it works. today, teachers want to act like it was there all the time, and its pure FILIPINO style, not adopted, and they "learned it from their dad". whatever. there is no shame from studying another style and using what you like. but since people want to see your papers, some people are force to lie and hide it because they dont have papers, or they are too proud.

if you look back when martialtalk first started, people got pissed because i said, most filipino styles have no empty hand or very little, knife does not translate to stick to emtpy hand, etc. but guess what, that is because they want to be able to say "my style has this too, and my style has that..." nobody wants to admit that his own style is not "complete". complete by those who dont know filipino cultures and styles, only what they think is there. does anybody remember a paul vunak article? when he wrote, is your FMA authentic? then it should have dumug, it should have panantukan, pananjakman, kinomutai. well somebody should write one, to say, how do you know if your FMA is not filipino.

we have confusion with the philippine arts now, because even our filipino leaders did not tell the truth about there art and background. and now they have to fight against the truth and keep telling the same lies, and avoid immigrant filipinos, and avoid going to the philippines, etc.


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## AldonAsher (May 8, 2003)

> the new thing today is kuntao/silat, or to adopt what they think is kuntao/silat into the art they do, and not call it silat or kuntao/kuntaw.



I have dealt with this from others also.  As for me, I have never done a technique, drill, or form without saying exactly where I learned it.  I have no problem doing that.  If it's from Silat, I call it Silat.  If it's from Kali, I call it Kali.  If I learned it from a video, I will cite the source. The people on MartialTalk who know me (Cthulu, Arnisandyz) can attest to that.  I guess my ego isn't big enough yet.   



> i have to say about 75% of the "kuntao/silat" is made up (recently, meaning no real lineage except for a few years ago),



With a few exceptions, I haven't really encountered this.  There is one person I have met who is doing this and a handful of others I have only heard of.  The Filipino/Indonesian MAs are still relatively obscure in the US.  That is one of the reasons why the individual I know who is making up his own 'Silat' has gotten away with it for so long.  The other is the skilled practioners who know he is a fraud won't waste their time on him.  

Fortunately, I do know my lineage.  I even know the individual systems where the djurus/forms come from.

I understand the spirit of your message, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you have said.  You want preserve the integrity of the FMAs.  I can respect that.



> well somebody should write one, to say, how do you know if your FMA is not filipino.



Why don't you write it?  That is something I would definitely want to read.

One in the arts,
Al


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## Cthulhu (May 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by AldonAsher _
> *I have dealt with this from others also.  As for me, I have never done a technique, drill, or form without saying exactly where I learned it.  I have no problem doing that.  If it's from Silat, I call it Silat.  If it's from Kali, I call it Kali.  If I learned it from a video, I will cite the source. The people on MartialTalk who know me (Cthulu, Arnisandyz) can attest to that.  I guess my ego isn't big enough yet.   *



I can verify this.  Al _always_ explains the origin of a technique or concept.  Now, we'll compare and contrast the technique or concept to the FMA, but we'll never call it FMA.


*



			With a few exceptions, I haven't really encountered this.  There is one person I have met who is doing this and a handful of others I have only heard of.
		
Click to expand...

*
Heh.  I think I know who you're talking about.  I'll behave 

Cthulhu


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## thekuntawman (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *
> the new thing today is kuntao/silat, or to adopt what they think is kuntao/silat into the art they do, and not call it silat or kuntao/kuntaw.  *



what i meant to say is, people are making things up from kung fu, kenpo, etc. and they are calling it kuntaw/kuntao.

kuntao-silat is a new thing. have you notice there are no indonesians teaching it? its like saying "kung fu-karate" or "judo-jujitsu". seminar and magazine people will fall for anything.


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## pesilat (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *what i meant to say is, people are making things up from kung fu, kenpo, etc. and they are calling it kuntaw/kuntao.
> 
> kuntao-silat is a new thing. have you notice there are no indonesians teaching it? its like saying "kung fu-karate" or "judo-jujitsu". seminar and magazine people will fall for anything. *



I've always been told that the Kuntao Silat blend is pretty much only taught by Dutch-Indonesians (DI) and Chinese-Indonesians (CI). The Chinese and Indonesians haven't generally gotten along very well in Indonesia. The people of DI and CI descent were treated as "inferiors." Which was a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it meant that they were generally treated like crap. On the other, it meant that no one really cared what they did or kept track of them. So CIs were able to get Kuntao training from their Chinese relatives and Silat from their Indonesian relatives. DIs were able to get Silat from their Indonesian relatives and, sometimes, to find Chinese instructors willing to teach them. Now a few of them have blended what they learned. Can't really call it "pure" Kuntao or "pure" Silat ... so they call it "Kuntao Silat." 

It probably is a "new" thing (i.e.: within the last 50 years) ... but, to my recollection, I've never heard anyone ever claiming anything different about it. It's roots are older but the "tree" is pretty young.

Mike


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## haumana2000 (May 9, 2003)

If you take a good look at the Larger scale of FMA today, I think youll find that it is really one major group who is purporting the whole recently named kino mutai, etc.   On the large scale, if you take a look FMAs most FMAs are very good about giving credence to where their techniques came about.  How many videos or books do you actually see on the subject of Filipino empty hands alone?  Very few except a couple.  Even the term combat judo is giving credit.  In addition, look at the Cabales Escrima camp that freely admits that the empty hands were a later innovation.  Bakbakan who gives credence to Dr. Lengson, Sam Tendencia who admits to studying Judo Jujitsu, Pekiti Tirsia who admits to studying silat, Modern Arnis who gives credit to both karate and jujitsu etc  Now we see that there is, dare I say it?  Those guys who do the Panantukan, Pananjakman, Kino Mutai and so on.  On a roots level, (I am speaking of Manong Inosanto himself) look at the Filipino Curriculum that he teaches, I am not talking about the wing chun or savate, or other influences, this is where many of those who are further down the lineage chain start to edge on misconception, taking the straight blast and calling it arnis.   Lets ask ourselves, are the concepts, and theories hes presenting sound?  How about tested?  If the answer is yes, and those movements are taken from the interpretation of the stick or knife movements, then how is that not True Filipino Martial arts?  I am not of the Inosanto clan, but I can still see the validity of universal motions.  Like the empty hand salute entry he uses, perfect sense that it shares the same structure as a paying block.  If you do any type of siniwali motions, empty handed and strict, you can see that what it actually teaches is how to angle, and chamber a jab or cross while firing a shot, Now, widen the motion a little and the same motion can teach you how to flow into a hook, or elbow, or a lot of times to check and off balance him while you chamber a punch or whatever.  Look at the yaw yan guys who take most of their punches from the stick and have great success.  What about the Filipino boxers who used the bolo punch taken from the sugar cane they used in the fields?  I dont agree with everything they do, but I think that much of what we were looking for in kung fu, and karate, or whatever else, was there all along in our weapons training.  The concepts of angling, and cutting angles, footwork checking, slipping, hitting, stepping on toes.  I think if anything what Mr. Inosanto has shown the world is to look closer at your art do you really understand it?  The principals that make it work?  As for the names, what came first the chicken or the egg?  Hes Filipino, and if the concepts that are covered in his Filipino curriculum are Filipino, than is it not Filipino?  For that we could say that any technique of pure Pilipino Kuntaw is not pure, because the same movements were found in Hindu or Indian martial arts and those pre-date it.  I know Mr. Inosanto is proud to acknowledge where the outside influences in his system of systems are.  The whole problem boils down to someone who does some jkd, then tries to pass off a completely foreign technique like the straight blast off as escrima.  Does it really matter how he packages his interpretation of FMA?  The great thing about Filipino Martial arts, is that they can be proud of being one of the few styles who are not afraid of change, this is what has made them so effective in the past, and this is what will keep them effective in the future.

Sorry so long of a post wheeuw!


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## AldonAsher (May 9, 2003)

> have you notice there are no indonesians teaching it?



Do Dutch-Indonesians count?

Kuntao-Silat are two separate arts, taught by someone who is trained in both.  Kuntao is a Chinese art, Silat is Indonesian.  Most people who teach will tell you this.  I'm just guessing here, but the reason why you don't see Indonesians teaching Kuntao-Silat is they didn't learn Kuntao.  

And if you are then going to question the legitimacy of MAs that teach multiple styles within a system, do you also question:
1.  Five Animals Kung Fu
2.  Bando



> what i meant to say is, people are making things up from kung fu, kenpo, etc. and they are calling it kuntaw/kuntao.



People lying about their styles and backgrounds is not new.  Nor is making up new systems.


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## AldonAsher (May 9, 2003)

> I've always been told that the Kuntao Silat blend is pretty much only taught by Dutch-Indonesians (DI) and Chinese-Indonesians (CI).



Aw shucks!  You beat me to it!   

Thanks Mike (Pesilat).


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## haumana2000 (May 9, 2003)

I completely agree, those who are frauds are usually exposed not by others, but by their own poor performance.  As My papa, used to say, the empty can rattles the most!
I have spent the last 8 1/2 years traveling the Mainland, and Pacific Islands to research a book I have written entitled "TOA" Contrasts in the Island Warriors.  And what I have found a striking similarity in all of our arts from the Philippines, Micronesia, Polynesia (I am not talking about Kajukenbo, but traditional styles) and what is little left of Melanesian martial heritage besides the dance aspect.  The malayo polynesians share similar charactersistics in language, heritage, lifestyle, dance, and martial arts, so if its indonesian/malaysian/bornean or Pilipino, you WILL find similar characteristics in all of them.  I do think it is sad however, that there are those out there who are just outright claiming to teach an entire system that never had a ny type of basis in fact (The TRS videos),  the ones that guarantee you will be unbeatable if you learn this ancient warrior system of ATLANTIS.  If you are describing a technique or method within a style such as (panantukan or kina mutai) I am less inclined to care as long as it is describes as such, At least these are factual concepts within the context of the overall art.


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## haumana2000 (May 9, 2003)

Oh, I forgot I remembert about two years ago, I saw a local Kempo schools pamphlet that read in the curriculum section:

Kali/Escrima/Arnis

Learn stick excercises to increase coordination, and dexterity.

LOL!


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## bart (May 9, 2003)

The first time I heard of Kuntao-silat was in a demo I saw when I was a kid in 1986 by Roberto Torres at my old Kosho Ryu Kenpo school in Sacramento.  He just called it what his teacher called it.  And it was supposed to be Filipino/Malaysian/Indonesian (_yes...all three_). 

The second time I heard of Kuntao-silat was from my uncle in Manila in 1989. He learned it streetfighting in Puerta Princessa, Palawan during the Marcos era. He said that was just what they called it. "A name, like Bhoy or Gelo, so we have something to call it instead of suntukan because it's not just puntsingpuntsing". He used the term "silat" more than "kuntao-silat" though, I think because it was shorter. 

Also the Manila street slang in 1989 (at least in the Mandaluyong JRC high school crowd) for any chinese kung-fu was "kuntaw". It seemed like just a generic term. 

Then in the 1990's it seemed like we were inundated with all sorts of Silat and Kuntao-silat. That is when I started to hear the complaints of the legitimacy of the name kuntao-silat. It probably rubs people the wrong way in the same manner that _Gung-Fu Karate_ bugs me.  But like it or not, the names are linked and have been for a while.


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## haumana2000 (May 9, 2003)

I know what you mean Bart, when I was younger and was learning to fight (Dare I say it...Pinoy style?), and thats what it was, fighting.  No martial art with code of ethics and secret information, Tatay Jo just called it fighting.  In fact he said here's what you do when someone play joe louis to you, "jab cross".  Or when somone put you on the ground yeah primitive politically, but hey These days people are more concerned with the fancy name you sell them, than the substance within  the art.


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## thekuntawman (May 9, 2003)

haumana,

there is nothing wrong with making your own style. as a matter of fact it is the filipino way for an expert to create his own method, instead of using his instructors method with no changes. kinomutai, panantukan, whatever. the dishonesty is trying to convince people you didnt make this style up, its a "lost" art! come on!

now  bart about bob torres. bob is a kung fu student. his teacher, florendo visitacion, is and arnis and jujitsu teacher. his certificates of kuntaw and kali came from leo gaje. anybody from the east coast in the early 1990s knows this. many people who made their own styles got certificates from manong gaje. gaudiosa ruby for example, is a comjuka teacher, but she got kuntaw and kali from leo gaje, now she has her own style. the difference is, her student know the origin of there style because she is honest. i am sure master visitacion is also. but his students want you to believe that his kuntao is ancient. IT IS HIS OWN STYLE, WHICH IS VEE ARNIS JITSU RENAMED TO A FILIPINO STYLE. this, i got from his own words.


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## dearnis.com (May 9, 2003)

Just for clarification....
The issue isn't with the names people use, but rather the claims they make?  
Just trying to follow the thread after a very long week.
Chad


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## thekuntawman (May 9, 2003)

i just remembered that i made a mistake. 

mrs. ruby's kuntaw was from carlito lanada, and kali from leo gaje. mr. visitacions certificates came from leo gaje totally.

and dearnis, yes, you are right. i dont care about the names, only when they try to attach a long history to the claims they make. especially when its to discredit or show more credibility and importance than the ones with true history.


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## bart (May 10, 2003)

> The issue isn't with the names people use, but rather the claims they make?



Point taken. What I was trying to do though was demonstrate that sometimes names are misleading but not intentionally dishonest.


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## haumana2000 (May 12, 2003)

Kuntawman,
I see your point, and this is what I was saying about not really caring about it except when some suburban kid, comes up and tries to tell me that he studies the ancient art of kali-mutai.  I actually had some guy at a library once tell me he knew a guy who studied Japanese Capoeira!  Anyway, I remember Dolly Banzon showing me the movements, from the Langka Silat, and it was definately discernable from most of the fast food type stuff people try to pass of as fma today.  
Sige,
Haumana


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## thekuntawman (May 12, 2003)

the problem with most of the people isnt lieing, its ignorance. 

i thing most of the people in the FMA who have bad information teach it because its what they are told the information and who wants to go against his own teacher, or hear that his teacher was wrong?

i think this is what happened with dan inosanto. maybe the ones who gave him the incorrect information because they didnt know the real story, or they exxaggerated, or they try to make sense of the little they know. i mean realy, how many old filipino men really know the history before they came along? except for the history of there own family what his own old man told him.

where i blame him is, to continue to tell people the wrong information after he found out the info was wrong! i think that is why he pulled his book.

with everyone else. they are prejudice by what they heard about the philippine arts, now he feels the need to find grappling, limb destructions, and how he can "translate" his stick to the knife to the hand. all along some native born filipinos are laughing at him try to convince you that his empty handed sinawali is authentic emtpy hands arnis. this is what i mean by dishonesty. now that they made some stuff up, they now have to stick to the story that his kali really did come from muslim philippines, and he really did fight with some robots to become a students, etc.

and he has to find "silat-looking" techniques to add to his panantukan.

who is hurt is the student who becomes a teacher with no credibility, and now he cant go to the philippines and hold his head up (with all those other reason not to go to the philippines), and the person with the real art, who now looks like a monkey because he didnt know what is kino-kali!:rofl: 

i met a guy in basic training named art, who was a fob (fresh off the boat), who does arnis. he told me he wanted to teach arnis since he was advanced. but he felt inferior because his style was "incomplete" without "carranza" and only 3 sinawali. i wonder what he is doing now.


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## haumana2000 (May 12, 2003)

So i guess the question is, what do people do?  We cant go back and change what already has already happened.  And just as the other Islands of the Pacific, one of the main handicaps that the Philippines suffers from has been the lack of written records.  Everything carried on to the next generation of students has been transmitted orally.  This holds true for the lack of credible information supplied by elders in the Filipino community.  We are talking about people from a third world country from poorer areas, and most times with little or no formal education.  (I say this with the greatest respect to all of our lolo)  Just the truth.  There was no such thing as the world wide web for research, or even the need to feel that they should have to justify what they are passing on.  These are our time honored and sacred traditions, oral transmission.  So now that  we believe we can scientifically, or historically put labels on things, the question is are we morally obligated to do so?  Is the reason that we say yes, so that the Kali-mutai instructor doesn't make a traditional instructor lose out on a student or couple of extra dollars?  If so, then I think this is the wrong reason.  I state the aforementioned example because Ive heard this.  I think the big question is whether The "blend" should be accepted as Authentic FMA, if it is effective and the sources are legitimate, (I feel confident that Mr. Insoanto's are) then I say yes.  I think our first and foremost responsibility is to sleep at night knowing that our students can actually defend themselves more than anything.  That doesnt mean that I agree with everything theoretically, or technically that the blend entails, as I am not familiar with it's entirety.  But we can fight it, or flow with it, even in the PI, now, most instructors are at least familiar with the different terminologies.  At east in my opinion,I think it will take it's place within the total scope of FMA's.  At present we are experiencing a "Turn of the Tide" anyway, seeing many of the older ones pass on, with the newer generation having an understanding of at least what it is, and knowing that it is not really better, just different.  Just like the Maragtas text, you can choose to disprove it or accept it as your history.  I think it is up to personal choice.  Try to tell most Polynesians from almost any Island, a scentific example of their history, and you'll get whapped, because Oral tradition, and the spirit of the pacific has more to do with what is handed down, than what anyone can put it in any textbook.  But, in the end those who blatantly misguide and misrepresent through intentional means, will expose themselves, noone else will have to do it.  And that holds true for any art.  
Good thread, with good viewpoints,
Salamat.


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## Black Grass (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *
> i think this is what happened with dan inosanto. ...
> 
> ...



I don't believe he pulled his book as all the books written by him at that time are now out of print (.eg. Absorb what is useful, Art and philosiphy of JKD..). In any case, yes there are some errors in the book but it is still a good one. He doesn't make any personal claims only reiterates what he was taught by his instructors. He make this quite clear in his new video series.

Remy Presas used to say that , what he calles reverse sinawalli was an inovation of Dean Stockwell. We all know that this is incorrect, but this does not discredit the man or his art. 

We should extend the same curtosy to Guro Dan who really has given so much to the FMA.

Vince
(aka Black Grass)


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## thekuntawman (May 13, 2003)

haumana, 
what should we do, the ones who know should share the information they know, and bust the myth when they can. true, that lots of what we have is oral tradition, but there is a lot of these myths that came from a recent oral tradition that someone just made up recently, like there is an anient art of biting called kinomutai. this is the dishonesty i am talking about. i know he got that info from someone, but who? serrada people dont have that. largusa people dont either. and doce pares. and lameco. i believe dan inosanto made that up. and even if he heard it from another teacher, he knows now that there is no art of biting, so why continue to tell people there is one instead of saying "i made an art of biting and i call it kinomutai."

the bottom line of an art is, does it work. and i recognize inosanto style as a real filipino art. i just dont respect the passing of false information, seminar certifications, and his having no interest to see the philippines. but that is only my problem. some guy here can make his own "kali" style and never took philippine martial arts before, give it a filipino name and its a filipino style. just dont go around telling people it was pass down to you from generations of filipino masters.

blackgrass
i have plenty of respect for dan inosanto as a filipino martial arts leader. at the same time, am i still allowed to disagree with him? he was my first martial arts hero, so i cannot dislike him. i still question his approach in promoting the filipino arts.


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## haumana2000 (May 13, 2003)

Well said Kuntawman, a particularly valid point which I have never agreed with is the Seminar certification.  As for the Kino-mutai, I think  I would be more open to this if it was ascribed just as a filipino name for a technique, but not a complete art.


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## Black Grass (May 13, 2003)

Certification through seminar is completely valid method of gaining instructorship. In particular I believe Inosanto has a good program for putting out competent teachers.

If it were not for these type of programs many would not have the opportunity to train and learn the FMA. The only way  to get better is to train with others and by creating a person who can lead others you accomplish this.

In the case of the Inosanto Academy. It is my understanding there are 5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate. You are reviewed once a year to see if you progress to the next level. So assuming you pass each time. Thats 15 years to become an instructor. This does not count the amount of time spent as a student. It is not until you achieve full instructors can yo make instructors of your own. 

Now the problem that may arise is people with egos start thinking  apprentice INSTRUCTOR as opposed to APPRENTICE instructor.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## haumana2000 (May 13, 2003)

I understand what you are saying black grass, However, I do feel that the problem lies with the way many approach the seminar training as a sole method of learning.  I am not speaking regarding The Inosanto blend here.  I am refferring to the industry as a whole.  I have seen some who attend a couple of seminars all of a sudden promoted to some high rank.  And then you have the issue of do they have a method of continuously reinforcing the material, what about someone to help them through the bad habits most beginners tend to develop.  How you train it is how you use it.  On to the next thing, FMA is a social art, meaning you have to have an adequate partner to feed the strokes, and allow you to see angles, and develop the sensitivity.  So if you attend a seminar, then dont really have a method of reinforcing the training until next year, have you REALLY advanced?  And at the next seminar are you learning new material?  If so you havent really gotten good at the previous, and you are moving on.  This is what I am talking about.  the guys who go soley for the certificate to add to their dojo wall.  And the opportunity to put one more logo in the window.  I think seminars a re a great, and viable means of learning new material for someone who already has an understanding of the principals
and foundation of an art.  thats my opinion.


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## bart (May 13, 2003)

Seminars are definitely the only way that some people can gain knowledge in FMA, or any MA especially when the GM or teacher lives in another country or across some great distance. But seminar training does have to be backed up by consistent training aside from the seminar for the practitioner to be any good. 

There are many talented seminar trained instructors who actually spend more time working on the particular concepts and principles of the art than students who regularly train under the GM or teacher. Again, it depends on the person and not so much on how they were trained. 

Traditionally FMA were a "club" style. That is, there was no GM and the training was pretty much boxing style: not too much instruction, but lots of practice and practical application. It lends itself well to seminar style dissemination of information. 



> So if you attend a seminar, then dont really have a method of reinforcing the training until next year, have you REALLY advanced?



This definitely is the problem with many "seminarians". In order to be proficient they must have a study group or a group of people to teach and practice what they've learned. Also, they must have access to the teacher for questions. Otherwise it would be more likely that they would not progress. 

I agree that there are many people out there who learn at seminars but don't know the art. But some of the best people that I've come across, learned at seminars and became very very proficient. It really depends on the person.


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## thekuntawman (May 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> *Certification through seminar is completely valid method of gaining instructorship. In particular I believe Inosanto has a good program for putting out competent teachers.
> 
> If it were not for these type of programs many would not have the opportunity to train and learn the FMA. The only way  to get better is to train with others and by creating a person who can lead others you accomplish this.
> ...



5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate? how many levels for STUDENT? so it looks to me like the goal is not study of the art, but to get more people out there teaching? that does not sound impressive to me. if there is more levels of permission to teach, than learning, i see that the FMA has become like mcdojo tae kwon do, just to get more black belters and higher degrees. 

no there should only be two kinds of teachers. regular, qualified teachers, who already have wisdom, not wet behind the ears. and master instructors. none of them should have testings and certificates like a student. they should be recognition and permission to teach my system. but shoot if you let somebody with only 3 or 4 years of training teach, the standards of expertise is become very low, and bad for the philippine martial arts.

you should be so experienced in fighting when you become a teacher because your students are relying on your experience to save his own life one day. if you are still in the main part of your learning, not merely learning techniques, but learning the opponent, what can you show a student that a book or video cant show him. FMA has become technique based, and fighting is not that easy. a technique based curriculum is shows that the teacher does not understand fighting that well.


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## Black Grass (May 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *5 levels of apprentice instructor and 10 levels of associate? how many levels for STUDENT? so it looks to me like the goal is not study of the art, but to get more people out there teaching? that does not sound impressive to me. if there is more levels of permission to teach, than learning, i see that the FMA has become like mcdojo tae kwon do, just to get more black belters and higher degrees. *



What does it matter if there are more levels of instructor that student. It doesn't mean a person can't be a student for 10 years. The way one structures there rank as nothing to do with becoming mcdojo. 




> *
> no there should only be two kinds of teachers. regular, qualified teachers, who already have wisdom, not wet behind the ears. and master instructors. none of them should have testings and certificates like a student. they should be recognition and permission to teach my system. ...*



This is one approach which I don't disagree with but it it simplely that one approach. If one chooses to test there instructors or rank them I don't still whats the issue it is simple a choice how you want to run your school/organization.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Black Grass (May 16, 2003)

What I ment to say:

This is one approach which I don't disagree with but it it simplely that one approach. If one chooses to test there instructors or rank them I still don't see what the issue is.  It is just a choice how you want to run your school/organization.

Vince


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