# Hybrid Martial Arts



## Kizaru (Oct 26, 2004)

From what I've seen here these past few months, there still seems to be some friction between the distinction of "modern" and "traditional" ninjutsu.

It would seem that "traditional" ninjutsu is what is being practiced and transmitted from Japan, whereas "modern" is not. So why is "modern" included under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section on martial talk?

From my perspective, what the Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan and Toshin-Do are practicing are at the same time "traditional" and "modern". Reviewing any number of threads will make this point evident, I believe.

Also, from my perspective, I see that "Tew ryu" etc are incorporating any number of systems into their curriculum, thus creating a "hybrid" system. From the perspective of most of the "traditionalists", the gap between "traditional" and "hybrid" is enormous. 

From my perspective, I feel that it may be more appropriate and a better fit to put the current "Modern Ninjutsu" section under "Arts" or "Western Martial Arts" in a "Hybrid Martial Arts" subsection.   . I see it as inappropriate, inflammatory and somewhat misleading to include groups that combine many styles into their practice under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section of Martialtalk, regardless of the name they label themselves with.&#12288;

Does anyone else share this perspective?

*&#39740;&#29503;*


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## AnimEdge (Oct 27, 2004)

Ya know i never thought of that, but that makes me wonder if other contries, oh wait that woudl be western wouldnt it  but know that is something to think apon could clear some confusion but might also cause some


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

From what I've seen, most Bujinkan practitioners would be absolutely appauled to include To-Shin Do with traditional.  It would be interesting to see what most say.  I've seen a few Tew-Rew practitioners and the art is, imo, a modern ninjutsu, i.e. taijutsu, weapons training, etc.  It comes from somebody that learned from somebody, that learned from somebody who learned in Japan from Hatsumi. 

I'm sure the mods on this section have, or are, considering another change soon.


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## Kizaru (Oct 27, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> if other contries, oh wait that woudl be western wouldnt it


I am guessing that you are refering to the United States of America here.

The United States are considered to be a "Western Country" , so martial arts developing in the US would easily fall under the "Western Martial Arts" category.


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## Kizaru (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> From what I've seen, most Bujinkan practitioners would be absolutely appauled to include To-Shin Do with traditional...


Interesting. You've admitted yourself that you've never set foot in Stephen Hayes' dojo or a "traditional" Bujinkan dojo. From my perspective, you haven't seen much. 



			
				gmunoz said:
			
		

> It would be interesting to see what most say....


I'd say Toshindo would fall under the X-Kan umbrella.



			
				gmunoz said:
			
		

> I've seen a few Tew-Rew practitioners and the art is, imo, a modern ninjutsu, i.e. taijutsu, weapons training, etc. ...


Indonesian and Filipino martial arts have empty handed skills as well as weapons work, but they don't tack "ninjutsu" onto what they do. Yagyu Shinkage ryu (a Japanese martial art founded during Japan's Warring States Period) has "Silent Walking", sword training, empty hands v. sword training etc, but they don't refer to themselves as a "ninjutsu" ryu either...Hybrid systems may have _aspects of ninjutsu _within them, but I wouldn't go as far as tacking "ninjutsu" onto the end to sum up the whole thing.



			
				gmunoz said:
			
		

> It comes from somebody that learned from somebody, that learned from somebody who learned in Japan from Hatsumi....


When I stand that far from the fire, I tend to get cold.


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## Bujingodai (Oct 27, 2004)

Coming from a Hybrid system, also with a Kan past. I could care less. We're not changing any names to suit the bitching masses. But if you want to put it in the western forums, what difference does it make. It's a forum, nothing more.


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Interesting. You've admitted yourself that you've never set foot in Stephen Hayes' dojo or a "traditional" Bujinkan dojo. From my perspective, you haven't seen much.


Yeah there was a time when that was true. But things change. Thank you so much for bringing back so fine memories Kizaru. Your perspective is now out of date I'd have to say though. Thanks anyways.

At least on this forum, seems most Buj practitioners would not consider To-Shin Do a traditional style.  I guess I could clarify my statement.


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> From what I've seen here these past few months, there still seems to be some friction between the distinction of "modern" and "traditional" ninjutsu.
> 
> It would seem that "traditional" ninjutsu is what is being practiced and transmitted from Japan, whereas "modern" is not. So why is "modern" included under the "Japanese Martial Arts" section on martial talk?
> 
> ...


its funny how rtms is always being brought up as the comparison to traditional arts.  at least we get some publicity!

here is what modern means:
*



mod·ern 

 Listen: [ m
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





d
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







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[font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]adj.[/size]

Click to expand...







a. Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history. b. Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.
a. Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. b. Avant-garde; experimental.
often [font=arial,sans-serif][size=-1]Modern[/size][/font] Linguistics Of, relating to, or being a living language or group of languages: Modern Italian; Modern Romance languages.


Click to expand...

a modern way of thinking/style/technique... it doesn't matter where it was developed.
so if you consider what you are learning trad. and modern that is convinient! (sp?)
the modern section was not made for x kans. i know that the grass sometimes is a bit greener, but this is the way the administration has it listed. if you have an issue with modern ninjutsu being "advanced style" sorry, thats what the dictionary says not me.
peace[/font]*


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> *
> the modern section was not made for x kans.
> peace*


 Enson,

 You yourself seem to often post topics in the "Modern" section about techniques in the X-kans... Such as the thread about Crossing Legs, and Pinky Strikes.  That does tend to invite  practitioners of those  arts into posting in that forum... perhaps if you are going to post "Crossover topics"  they would be better served in the "General" forum?


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Enson,
> 
> You yourself seem to often post topics in the "Modern" section about techniques in the X-kans... Such as the thread about Crossing Legs, and Pinky Strikes. That does tend to invite practitioners of those arts into posting in that forum... perhaps if you are going to post "Crossover topics" they would be better served in the "General" forum?


 you maybe right. my questions originally are for mod schools. i do enjoy imput from x kans to help explain why the move is done. next time i post a new thread i will evaluate if it should be posted elsewhere.
peace


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## Don Roley (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Yeah there was a time when that was true. But things change.



So you have "set foot" in a real dojo (once, twice?), but you still continue to be a student of a home video course and have never met SKH who you name as your teacher, correct?

The fact remains that you are making judgements based on very little experience. If we take the guys who have had a lot of experience in ninjutsu as it is trained in Japan and had them look at what people like Rick Tew are doing, I am sure that the more experienced the Bujinkan member, the more they will be able to spot fundemental differences in the way things are done just from videos and pictures.

Everybody who has done martial arts for a long time knows that people can't even tell the difference between karate and wu shu. Everyone uses punches and kicks, etc. But the differences are there if you know what to look for and the reasons why different arts do different things are very, very important.




			
				Enson said:
			
		

> if you have an issue with modern ninjutsu being "advanced style" sorry, thats what the dictionary says not me.



That is going to cause some flame wars.


_For the purposes of martialtalk_ the "traditional" section is for *confirmable Japanese* arts. The modern section is for those that are not. There is no "advanced" connotations as set down by the administrators of the site.


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> That is going to cause some flame wars.


not ment to cause flame wars :flame: ... just repeating what the dictionary says. hope i didn't offend anyone... and if i did... sorry:uhyeah: 

i think we have modern viewpoints and techniques imo.

peace


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Well Don, 

When can I have enough experience to get your approval?  After all, you want so badly to be the source!  Please tell me. How many times do I have to train with SKH, visit him, call him on the phone, email him, etc to be considered experienced?  1 year?  2?  5?  I anxiously await your approval.  Thank you so much


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So you have "set foot" in a real dojo (once, twice?), but you still continue to be a student of a home video course...


Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail?  That is a fact as he himself has written.  He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei.  Things that make you go "hmm."  Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail? That is a fact as he himself has written. He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei. Things that make you go "hmm." Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?


ah man is that true? wow that does make you go hmmm. maybe thats why michael pearce has that internet video lesson every month. maybe i should get that. looks interesting. i even think michael pearce is a member here. all the better!
didn't someone say that the booj is actually 9 different schools? that would be hybred if you ask me.

peace


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Hey with that in mind Mr. Don, didn't your teacher Hatsumi do a major part of his training by mail? That is a fact as he himself has written. He received a major part of his ninjutsu training by correspondence with Takamatsu sensei. Things that make you go "hmm." Perhaps Home study course has some merit after all?


You're not going to get anywhere by taking things out of context. The fact that he received dozens if not hundreds of letters from Takamatsu sensei over the years does not mean that he would equate that with his actual training and tutelage (the location of which he had to travel to by train for about 12 hours each week).

_*Videos and books are useless without* *real training.*_


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You're not going to get anywhere by taking things out of context. The fact that he received dozens if not hundreds of letters from Takamatsu sensei over the years does not mean that he would equate that with his actual training and tutelage (the location of which he had to travel to by train for about 12 hours each week).
> 
> _*Videos and books are useless without* *real training.*_


i think that is a little unfair and uncalled for to a fellow martial artist. who says that gmunoz, shogun, etc. don't get real training? an uncalled for assumption.
peace


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> _*Videos and books are useless without* *real training.*_


So let's look at this scenario then:  If I trained by correspondence (in my case video), and traveled to absolutely every training seminar I could, and had a routine training partner, then would you consider that valid training?

Because if so, as did Hatsumi, then I do the same thing!  A "real dojo" according to Don?  Yeah, in my garage!  My "Bob", training partner, equipment, a mat... The only thing I don't have unfortunately are the little name tags with all the names of Shihans like Hombu... ah shucks!


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> So let's look at this scenario then: If I trained by correspondence (in my case video), and traveled to absolutely every training seminar I could, and had a routine training partner, then would you consider that valid training?
> 
> Because if so, as did Hatsumi, then I do the same thing! A "real dojo" according to Don? Yeah, in my garage! My "Bob", training partner, equipment, a mat... The only thing I don't have unfortunately are the little name tags with all the names of Shihans like Hombu... ah shucks!


I think that you have a False notion of HOW Sensei Hatsumi was trained. It was NOT by mail and "occassional" seminars by Takamatsu.  

The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think.  It does not invalidate your Video Training, but it does lack a certain element... It is much like "1 way communication" in that it is ineffective when compared to "2 way communication" (Sorry, thats my years of stupid management training coming to the surface.) 

Let me ask you this, if I took a Video Corespondance course on Surgery, would you feel I was qualified to perform a bypass on one of your loved ones, even if the AMA licenced me?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> _*Videos and books are useless without* *real training.*_


I disagree.  I think they are far less effective, but you CAN learn from them.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> didn't someone say that the booj is actually 9 different schools? that would be hybred if you ask me.
> 
> peace


No.

Hybrid arts take "This from this, That from that" and blends them together... Like RBWI mixing Some Hapkido, Some Ninpo and coming up with something "new"

The Bujinkan "Organization" contains the COMPLETE teachings of all 9 schools, so it is not a "Hybrid" It doesnt "mix and match".

It is theorectically possible to JUST learn, say, Koto Ryu. Or Just learn Kukishinden... Not simply Techniques A C D F from Koto Ryu and B E G from Kukishin... see the difference?


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## heretic888 (Oct 27, 2004)

Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

A video can't give you corrections on your errors, weak points and misconceptions. Negative feedback training rules.:whip: 

The type of training done at seminars differs in many ways from the type of training that is conducted on a weekly basis, and is missing several important components. Things like these are impossible to know without having experienced regular training. One thing seminars are good for though, is the possibility to train with lots of other people. If you just train with a certain number of people all the time you'll develop bad habits. Ironically, it's been my experience that people rarely train with people they didn't know before at seminars.


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think. It does not invalidate your Video Training, but it does lack a certain element... It is much like "1 way communication" in that it is ineffective when compared to "2 way communication" (Sorry, thats my years of stupid management training coming to the surface.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?


Like feedback when you send tapes back to test?  Thats helpful.  Not the same as being corrected BEFORE you commit bad habits to... for lack of a better term... Muscle memory, but definatly a step above just learning from a tape.


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## heretic888 (Oct 27, 2004)

> One thing I disagree on is that there IS 2 way communication. The only thing with it is that it is delayed. I do get feedback though. This seems to be the same argument university professors have with schools doing internet university courses. Traditionalists scared for their jobs hate it, and more contempararies think it is a viable option. Drawbacks definitely, but still viable. My $.02.



These are comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.

Transmission of intellectual knowledge via long distance is not the same as transmission of budo. And, in any event, having taken both regular college courses and long-distance courses, I can definately assure you that the latter is far inferior.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> What if one acquired all the comments, corrections, advice from their teacher?


Then one would be enrolled in the training conducted at an actual dojo.
Hatsumi sensei has stated himself that his art cannot be learned through video. I've never met a skilled practitioner who has been taught only by books and/or video. But I've met several who thought they had... 

When I was younger I and a friend practiced aikido through books. Only after visiting an actual aikido dojo did we realize that we'd fooled ourselves thinking we'd learned anything worthwhile. Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is an energy based system, and learning such systems without physical contact with various skilled as well as basic-level practitioners is an oxymoron.

There were no dojos where Stephen Hayes or Bo Munthe lived originally either. The same goes for most places around the world where the Bujinkan thrives nowadays. Your chances of learning are all dictated by dedication.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> One thing I disagree on is that there IS 2 way communication. The only thing with it is that it is delayed. I do get feedback though.


Thats Multiple steps of One Way communication, actually.  Two way communication indicates both paries are involved in the communication and have a chance to communicate.  Even what we are doing here is in actuallity only one way communication...

But I do get what you are saying.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Then one would be enrolled in the training conducted at an actual dojo.
> Hatsumi sensei has stated himself that his art cannot be learned through video.
> 
> There were no dojos where Stephen Hayes or Bo Munthe lived originally either. The same goes for most places around the world where the Bujinkan thrives nowadays. Your chances of learning are all dictated by dedication.


He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.


Technically, since what Hayes is teaching is an interpretation of what he learned from Hatsumi sensei, I'd say the same principle applies. But that's just me.


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.


then that makes it unstoppable! 


> A video can't give you corrections on your errors, weak points and misconceptions. Negative feedback training rules.:whip:


 don't you think that you are stating the obvious? i think the teacher/training partner/club leader helps you point out your errors.


> The consensus on Martial Talk, after reading many threads on the subject, and not just in the Ninjutsu section, seems to be that Video and Book training are excellent supplements, but not very good substitutes for "real" instruction. MOST martial artists would tell you the same, I think


  well i think consensus are good for voting for the president, but not for personal opinion. its not a majority rule thing here just what people prefer. remember if you don't think/agree with gmunoz/shogun's method of study then you personally don't agree. he is still a martial artist and if hayes gives him rank he obviously earned it. who are we to say that they have to play by our rules? nobody thats who!:angry:


> These are comparing apples and oranges, in my opinion.


 arn't they both fruit? hmmm thats weird. i see nothing wrong with distance learning and going to seminars. i do believe a training partner is required and continous instruction from other practicioners is important.

rmember that we are all just practicioners of whatever art we study. not the inventors/an shu/soke/etc. just simple practicioners. why do we find it so easy to put down other's way of studying? what makes us qualified to pounce on others that don't do what we do... "you don't live in japan"... "your soke isn't japanese", "your master is too young", "you might steal our techniques". we all just study an established art already. why is it so hard to exchange thoughts and what we are learning? we are just small fish. respect others for what they have done and people will respect you.
"nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care". john c. maxwell (leadership guru)

peace


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> don't you think that you are stating the obvious? i think the teacher/training partner/club leader helps you point out your errors.


As I said before, _there are things that cannot be dealt with purely through seminars._



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> i see nothing wrong with distance learning and going to seminars.


Me neither. As long as it's a supplement to regular training.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> why do we find it so easy to put down other's way of studying?


If Rick Tew hadn't had a problem with the so called Bujinkan "superman punch" perhaps he'd still be in it today.


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## AnimEdge (Oct 27, 2004)

everyone is so picky  i think this had strayed from the original point of eather or not Modern Ninjutsu shoudl be consedered a Western Art (USA, England, whatever) sence from what i know is there is no 'Modern' ninjutsu in japan just the traditional Ryus you have been talking about, my guess is when a westerner went there or even when one of them came to the west they probly thought 'Ya know what i can do that better' and they start changing the art, from what i know about RBWI(whitch is what i am learning just under a diffrent name, long story) is that he left there came back and did not like the eastern relgion in it and did not like how it was taught and thus he came up with RBWI whitch is consdered a Modern Ninjutsu even though Bussey states that he doesnt want to be know for ninjutsu but Ninjutsu is what it closly resembles and is most strongly based off of so thats what it has been uh 'nicked named' i woudl guess, technicly from what i have researched RBWI is technicly should be a western art, but its not, it is consedered Modern Ninjutsu

Take for example Japanese Anime has a distict look to it, big eyes so on so on, now it has thus become popular in the states to where even American Animation is mimicing it, like example theres a anime knock of called Teen Titan, i hate this show and i view it as ripping off Japanese Anime though i know it is based strongly off Anime but is Americanly Done, now i think that Anime should stick to Japan and if we wanted some american animation done in that style we shoudl pay them or send our animators tehre to train in that style and not to come back and try and mix it and so on.

You might be thinking wtf? well i have a point:
Anime that is coming from japan is like traditional Ninjutsu , it changes and updates itself with time over there but its generaly the same. Now this Anime like Ninjutsu was brought to the states, first no one like it, then theres suddenly a craze(Ninja Mania if you may), and so people start mimicing this style of art: anime(ninjutsu) eather trying to take points from this style and place it into tehres or just taking the style (anime/ninjutsu) and adding there own stuff in to it, now the ones that that add stuff to there own are less noticed, they dont call tehre selfs ninjutsu, they could be a jkendo class taht saw a good ninjutsu move or whatever and added it to tehres, but the ones taht take taht art, eather by going to japan and learning it or not is like Modern Ninjutsu, its based off of it but its like a american form and so on, now just like in this Traditional/Modern Ninjutsu war.

Some people think that it should stay in japan or be so close to that japanese style to where it might as well been done in japan, now i agree with that on Anime, i hate this new 'modern' american anime, i find it to be disrespectfull and copying, just liek im sure your traditional ninjutsu think about modern, you think that we are discracing it and so on, whitch is fine you can have your opinion, but once again i hate this new Americanized version of Anime but yet im also loving Modern Ninjutsu, in the end its about a persons opinion on it taht matters, unless, ya know a style just so obviosly sucks


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## gmunoz (Oct 27, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If Rick Tew hadn't had a problem with the so called Bujinkan "superman punch" perhaps he'd still be in it today.


Is that the "pinky strike" everyone says is so effective?

Now the sensei bashing begins!  Don't believe Rick Tew has ever been in Buj.


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## Kizaru (Oct 27, 2004)

AnimEdge said:
			
		

> i hate this new 'modern' american anime, i find it to be disrespectfull and copying, ... unless, ya know a style just so obviosly sucks


Well let's look at it from another perspective, shall we?

Say someone went off and studied a little Buddhism, some Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, Kenyan Bantu Shamanism and some Eastern European Wicca. Now this person not only doesn't go to the countries of origins of these traditions but for whatever reason, they don't get ordained, indoctrinated, qualified, blessed, baptized or anything in any of these religious traditions either. Then, they decide they have a more "modern" approach and head off to form their own religion calling it "Roman Catholic Wicca". Completely disregarding the question as to wether or not this new religion "obviously sucks" or not, should it be grouped in with the Roman Catholic faith? If so, what would the Pope think of "throwing bones" at the start of mass, or reciting the Hanya Shingyo (Heart Sutra) instead of the Lord's Prayer? 

Sure they've all got similarities, and are generally all trying to accomplish the same goal, but they have very different ways of going about it, don't you think? Wouldn't this "Hybrid" approach be better off as being refered to as it's own entity rather than a branch of "modern" Catholiscm unsanctioned by the Vatican or as a sect of "Civilized" Bantu Shamanism?

One more note, Japanese martial arts are refered to as "ryu", a "flow", as are tea ceremony, dance, flower arranging etc. They begin with basic patterns and go from there. Once the basic patterns have been learned, the student learns to improvise, then if modifications are necessary to keep it working, they're added. They start from a base of knowledge and flow from there. When the flow stops, the tradition dies. Modern American hybrid systems are ecclectic, the whole fundamental base is altogther different, even if the end goal is similar. 

That's where I think the friction is. That's why I think the modern "ninjutsu" section should be transplanted.

*&#39740;&#29503;*


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## Seig (Oct 27, 2004)

Wow, you guys really like to split hairs.

I'm going to give some input, and before anyone spouts off, think about it. My instructor and I live about 1500 miles apart. I see him two to four times a year. I speak with him on the phone nearly every day. I have most of our lessons videotaped, with my mistakes and his corrections and all. I have our curriculum in written format, which was transmitted to me in electronic format. I said all that to say this. I don't care how much you talk or read, without sufficient experience to _understand_ what you are hearing or reading, you cannot progress in your skills.

I have taken both online and regular college classes and find that I learned far more in my online classes then I ever did in a class room. Why? I was forced to do far more research than I would have been in a traditional setting.  

The over all point is this, all communications methods have validity. You must decide what it is you are trying to acheive and the _best_ means to do so. 

In *MY OPINION* anyone with less than 3 to 5 years of actual hands on instruction does not have sufficient experience to make long distance martial arts learning effective. 

One of the main arguments here is what is traditional versus what is not. We, the admin team, have been very clear in that guide line. If it is traceable and of verifiable Japanese lineage, it is "traditonal" otherwise it is not. One argument I see underlying this entire fight that seems to encompass everythread is not what is traditonal and what is modern but what is valid and what it not.

What makes a martial art valid? Does it work? If you can answer yes via *your own experience* then yes, it is valid. If, due to *your own experience,* you cannot truthfully answer that in the affirmative, then it is probably not valid. You cannot take someone else's word for their "combat experience" unless it is documented, somewhere. 
What do I mean by that? Simply, if you were to do an thorough back round check of me, you would find that I have been in lots of altercations, from middle school on up til a few years ago. There are school records, police reports, etc. Anyone can be a cyber bad ***. How many of you spent much time in the chat rooms when the internet was first gaining it's popularity? How many people told you were they were a BB in TKD but couldn't name the white belt form? How many were "BBs in 'Karate'" but could not name a system? See where I am going?

There needs to be more exchange of information and less urinating on one another's shoes.

Seig


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 28, 2004)

The fact remains that these so-called modern ninjutsu styles, due to their referring to themselves as ninjutsu, are based on a false assumption - namely that ninjutsu in itself has anything with physical combat training to do. If you continually refer to a type of training along the lines of punching, kicking, grappling, breaking, locking, choking, sweeping rolling, jumping, weapons usage etc. in this day and age, there is reason to believe you don't know what you're talking about.

I seriously doubt the Bujinkan has anything to benefit from exchanging knowledge with either other X-kan or "Modern Ninjutsu" styles. Not while we've got people like Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihans around.
I don't remember where I read it, but somewhere I saw that Rick Tew had written a short text about his enrollment in the Bujinkan and how he'd been put off by the traditional "lunge punch/superman punch" that is used in training. Also, he seems to have had opinions about the kenjutsu training he had witnessed there. So he went off to do his own thing.
In other words, he didn't stick around long enough to put it into perspective. There is an immense wealth of knowledge available within the Bujinkan, probably more than I'll ever know, but the only way to tap into it is by thorough training and hard work. Even people who have trained with Hatsumi sensei since the 60's continue to do so nowadays.


----------



## Kizaru (Oct 28, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> Wow, you guys really like to split hairs.
> Seig


Wow. Thanks for the resume.

I guess I wasn't clear enough with my original post. My question is, "Do you think it's modern ninjutsu or hybrid martial arts being represented in the Ninjutsu section of the Japanese Martial Arts Area on Martialtalk.com?".

If we want to discuss the validity of distance learning, let's start a thread on that.

Until then, let's keep the conversation on track.

Gassho.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 28, 2004)

I think Seigs response was in reply to several posts in the #20-#30 range here.


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## heretic888 (Oct 28, 2004)

> The fact remains that these so-called modern ninjutsu styles, due to their referring to themselves as ninjutsu, are based on a false assumption - namely that ninjutsu in itself has anything with physical combat training to do. If you continually refer to a type of training along the lines of punching, kicking, grappling, breaking, locking, choking, sweeping rolling, jumping, weapons usage etc. in this day and age, there is reason to believe you don't know what you're talking about.



Well, Nimravus, it is my understanding that Togakure ryu contains some taijutsu, shurikenjutsu, shukojutsu, kenjutsu, and the like (even naginatajutsu, from what I've read) --- but that this is not the _emphasis_ of the school. Likewise, Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishinden ryu contain some shinobijutsu --- but, again, this is not the _emphasis_ of either of those schools.

Just my thoughts.  :asian:


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## Flatlander (Oct 28, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Wow. Thanks for the resume.
> 
> I guess I wasn't clear enough with my original post. My question is, "Do you think it's modern ninjutsu or hybrid martial arts being represented in the Ninjutsu section of the Japanese Martial Arts Area on Martialtalk.com?".
> 
> ...


That's a fantastic idea. I would hesitate to infer that this has been the desire all along , however, considering your last post:



> Well let's look at it from another perspective, shall we?


OK, let's.





> Say someone went off and studied a little Buddhism, some Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, Kenyan Bantu Shamanism and some Eastern European Wicca. Now this person not only doesn't go to the countries of origins of these traditions but for whatever reason, they don't get ordained, indoctrinated, qualified, blessed, baptized or anything in any of these religious traditions either.


I have done this myself. Fortunately for me, I was able to understand the things I read, and form my own understanding regarding the way of things. Of course, that would be for another thread. Join us in the Study sometime.





> Then, they decide they have a more "modern" approach and head off to form their own religion calling it "Roman Catholic Wicca". Completely disregarding the question as to wether or not this new religion "obviously sucks" or not, should it be grouped in with the Roman Catholic faith?


If it was founded on principles derived from Roman Catholocism, then yes. By projecting your unfounded idea that this new "religion" "obviously sucks", you're exposing your personal bias, whick I believe to be the absolute center of the problem regarding this Modern Ninjutsu section. You know what? If you don't like the structure, or if you disagree with the principles, don't post in here. It's just that simple. However, back to your false analogy.





> If so, what would the Pope think of "throwing bones" at the start of mass, or reciting the Hanya Shingyo (Heart Sutra) instead of the Lord's Prayer?


I would expect that, were this going on, I would have to ask myself, what has caused the Pope to accept this new approach? Perhaps this is something I should look at. If it's a movement so powerful that it could cause such a fundamental change of paradigm in the leader of such a large movement, there must be something to it, no? This is one of the problems with your analogy. Clearly, this is not what's going on.





> Sure they've all got similarities, and are generally all trying to accomplish the same goal, but they have very different ways of going about it, don't you think? Wouldn't this "Hybrid" approach be better off as being refered to as it's own entity rather than a branch of "modern" Catholiscm unsanctioned by the Vatican or as a sect of "Civilized" Bantu Shamanism?


 Sure. In fact, I would trust the Roman Catholic Administration to make that distinction, and the followers of each particular faith to be able to figure out which building to walk into based upon the signage.





> One more note, Japanese martial arts are refered to as "ryu", a "flow", as are tea ceremony, dance, flower arranging etc. They begin with basic patterns and go from there. Once the basic patterns have been learned, the student learns to improvise, then if modifications are necessary to keep it working, they're added. They start from a base of knowledge and flow from there. When the flow stops, the tradition dies. Modern American hybrid systems are ecclectic, the whole fundamental base is altogther different, even if the end goal is similar.


But what are they derived from? I study an art that was brought to the US, evolved somewhat, and propogated all over the Continent. It was Filipino in origin, the movement is Filipino. It was taught to me by a Canadian who learned it from an American. Still, the way I move is FMA. It is still Filipino, not Western.





> That's where I think the friction is. That's why I think the modern "ninjutsu" section should be transplanted.


 I don't, but I don't make that decision.


----------



## Cryozombie (Oct 28, 2004)

I'm going to try not to sidetrack this thread, as it is all over the place here as it is... but I am going to make an observation and pose a couple questions.  

 Here is my take on the issue of "Hybrid arts" calling themselves "Ninjutsu" (or jitsu, take your pick)

 For the most part... (with some minor dissention from some outside factions that cannot back up their claims) You had 1 school teaching Ninjutsu for quite some time.  The rule set forth by the head of that School was you had to be at least 5th dan to teach the art.  

 A few people, some of whom had barley just earned 1st dan ranks decided that they were "ready" to do their own thing... they then "Blended" what they had learned from that ninjutsu school with their prior training in whatever art that may be... but didn't abandon the name of the original art... "Ninjutsu".  Still, others came along after the "Ninja Boom" of the late 70's early 80's and also claimed to teach "Ninjitsu" even tho their background was limited to other arts.

 To a practitioner of That original Ninjutsu... no amount of rationalization that "He had "some" training and saw holes in the style"... or  "Well, we feel what we practice is in the "sprirt" of the original Ninjutsu"...  is going to make it the same art... so why did they take it's name?

 Imagine if you built a car and called it a Ford... because well, you "Worked" in the ford plant for a few years... or your car was built in "the spirit" of the original Fords...  It still wouldnt be a ford. 

 In a similar vein... Seig, if you Went to a Kempo school and found out that what they were doing was in actuallity Brazilian Ju Jutsu, or  Flatlander, if went to an Arnis school and they were actually just teaching Juko-kai... what would you think? 

 That said, I feel as long as these "hybrid ninja" arts are going to co-exsist with the "Original Ninjutsu" on the board, you will always have a bit of dissention going both ways.  I don't think that they cannot co-habitate.  I think that, like an episode of "The Real World" you will see some drama as different personalities clash from time to time. 

 As long as either side makes posts "questioning" the techniques of the other side, people will conflict over exactly whats best.  Again, I see nothing WRONG with that per se...

 What I am going to URGE everyone here to do is this... Stop, Take a look at the other side's POV, and then do your best to REMIAN CIVIL.  I don't want to see anyone banned or suspended from the forums over a stupid weiner waving contest... it's not worth it.  

 If you have a dissenting point of view, that's ok... just present it NICELY.


----------



## Enson (Oct 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> He's not a Bujinkan student, you cannot hold him to the same standards or statements from Hatsumi, that is unfair. If Stephan Hayes says he can train that way, he is learning Toshindo, not Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi's statements about his art do not matter, as thats not what he is learning.


what about the videos by michael pearce? i think he states they are for instruction... on a monthly basis. i know off topic but just a thought i had.

i think your ford analogy is sound but still has its holes. the "ford" name is trademark so legally you couldn't call your car a ford car. now... unless the "ninjutsu" name is trademarked... then we have a different issue on hand. i think the main problem stems from some that claim to have exclusive rights to that title.

the unfortunate fact is anyone can claim to teach ninjutsu even with a made up style. now what they claim and what they are are 2 different things. the word ninjutsu is not copy written and might never be. what will happen if some other style copy writes that word? now booj, rtms, rbwi, etc couldn't legally use that name... what would we do then?

re:hybrid... if its roots/concepts are ninjutsu... even though it is not the same as it is done in japan now... then it should stay in japanese arts, but not my decision.

peace


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## heretic888 (Oct 28, 2004)

No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....


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## Cryozombie (Oct 28, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> what about the videos by michael pearce? i think he states they are for instruction... on a monthly basis. i know off topic but just a thought i had.


 I agree, Von Donk does the same thing... not IMHO, a good substitute for an instrutcor, but better than nothing... NOT something you should try and learn exclusivly from a video.  And had gmunoz been studying Bujinkan with those DVDs, I would have agreed that what he was doing was what Hatsumi said not to do... but Gmunoz is studying Toshindo, so telling him Hatsumi said dont learn from a Videotape is a moot point, which is why I posted that.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> i think your ford analogy is sound but still has its holes. the "ford" name is trademark so legally you couldn't call your car a ford car. now... unless the "ninjutsu" name is trademarked... then we have a different issue on hand. i think the main problem stems from some that claim to have exclusive rights to that title.


 I expected exactly that argument, so I was hesitant to use a branded trademark... but I think if you examine my concept its still the same.  "Ford" implies a certain "style" of car with certain type of "parts" and a certain "qulality" of workmanship.  Thats more of what I was refering to.  I wasn't implying the legal ramifications, merely the fact that you were not making a "Ford" vehicle.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> the unfortunate fact is anyone can claim to teach ninjutsu even with a made up style. now what they claim and what they are are 2 different things. the word ninjutsu is not copy written and might never be.


 True, but again, anyone can claim anything... I can say the grass is purple, or that my last name is Munoz, and that I am related to you by association  on this forum, but that doenst make it so.  There is nothing anyone can do about those claims... except call them BS.  Thats why I said no matter what, you will have friction over the claims, and we should just do our best to get along with one another.


----------



## Enson (Oct 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Thats why I said no matter what, you will have friction over the claims, and we should just do our best to get along with one another.


good points. i will ponder on that throughout the day.

peace


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 28, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, Nimravus, it is my understanding that Togakure ryu contains some taijutsu, shurikenjutsu, shukojutsu, kenjutsu, and the like (even naginatajutsu, from what I've read) --- but that this is not the _emphasis_ of the school.


It is, judging from how it's practiced within the Bujinkan.


----------



## gmunoz (Oct 28, 2004)

I have to say TP, that I do respect the fact that as a moderator now, it seems to me that your comments are much more open minded.  I mean that as a compliment to you.  I realize you have your own opinion regarding MA that are obviously different than mine in many ways, but you now are being quite respectful of individuals opinion even when they are different than yours.  Thank you.   Keep it up.  Completely off topic I know.  Sorry.


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## Flatlander (Oct 28, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....


Perhaps you are correct.  After re-reading, I found a misreading or two.  My point was in the first sentence.  That was really all I wanted to stay.  The rest was the coffee kicking in.


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## Kizaru (Oct 28, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> No offense, Flatlander, but I think you took almost everything Kizaru said completely out of context (talk about false analogies)....


 

:iws:


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## Kizaru (Oct 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Imagine if you built a car and called it a Ford... because well, you "Worked" in the ford plant for a few years... or your car was built in "the spirit" of the original Fords... It still wouldnt be a ford.
> 
> In a similar vein... Seig, if you Went to a Kempo school and found out that what they were doing was in actuallity Brazilian Ju Jutsu, or Flatlander, if went to an Arnis school and they were actually just teaching Juko-kai... what would you think?


TP, I couldn't agree with you more.

As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs. 

:asian:


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## heretic888 (Oct 28, 2004)

> Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.



HAH! Genius.  :asian:


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## Enson (Oct 28, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> TP, I couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.
> 
> :asian:


could this mean that you are under the influence? lay off the drugs buddy!:asian:


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## Cryozombie (Oct 28, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> TP, I couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck"...Well, I see the Hybrid arts looking like vultures, walking like peacocks and "quacking" like dogs.
> 
> :asian:


Platypus?


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## sojobow (Oct 28, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> No.
> 
> Hybrid arts take "This from this, That from that" and blends them together... Like RBWI mixing Some Hapkido, Some Ninpo and coming up with something "new"
> 
> ...


If you just read your own post over again, you'll discover both of your examples are actually the same thing:  Hybrids.  The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools."  A few were added as we moved along the way.  All martial arts systems are Hybrids.


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## sojobow (Oct 28, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Not to mention, all of the nine arts in the Bujinkan are actually Japanese in origin.


?


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## Cryozombie (Oct 28, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> If you just read your own post over again, you'll discover both of your examples are actually the same thing: Hybrids. The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools." A few were added as we moved along the way. All martial arts systems are Hybrids.


If you crossbreed a Donkey and a Horse, you get a Mule, which is a Hybrid.

If you Have a Horse and buy a donkey, you have a Horse and a Donkey. Not a Hybrid.

Try again, Sojo.


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## Kizaru (Oct 28, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> HAH! Genius. :asian:


Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!


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## heretic888 (Oct 29, 2004)

> The "Organization" did not start out with Nine "complete" schools." A few were added as we moved along the way.



Ok, sojobow, would you mind elucidating as to which schools the Bujinkan has "added to" its curriculum in its less than 40 year history??



> All martial arts systems are Hybrids.



No. Not all martial arts systems employ a cut-n-paste, mix-n-match approach to study.

As technopunk said, "try again".



> ?



What's with the question mark?? All nine koryu in the Bujinkan are Japanese schools. What's so hard to understand about that??



> Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!



Sorry, man. Never used the "karma system" before.   :asian:


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## shinbushi (Oct 29, 2004)

I think it should be in the Japanese section only because % or more of so called japanese Jujutsu in the west is really some guy mixing judo+ karate+ alpha and calling it jujutsu and saying the jujutsu is one of the oldest arts


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## heretic888 (Oct 29, 2004)

Ummm.... both judo and most forms of karate-do are Japanese, shinbushi.


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## Flatlander (Oct 29, 2004)

nevermind


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## Cryozombie (Oct 29, 2004)

shinbushi said:
			
		

> I think it should be in the Japanese section only because % or more of so called japanese Jujutsu in the west is really some guy mixing judo+ karate+ alpha and calling it jujutsu and saying the jujutsu is one of the oldest arts


David, 

Welcome to the Forums, we look forward to your input and experience!


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## shinbushi (Oct 30, 2004)

artyon: 
Thak you for the warm welcome


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## Kizaru (Nov 1, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> When can I have enough experience to get your approval?


Probably just a few years of training in the presence of an experienced, qualified teacher would do the trick.

*&#39740;&#29503;*


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## gmunoz (Nov 1, 2004)

Thanx.  I didn't realize...


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## Kizaru (Nov 1, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Thanx. I didn't realize...


You're welcome. I'm glad I could be of help.

:asian:


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## Shogun (Nov 1, 2004)

> who says that gmunoz, shogun, etc. don't get real training? an uncalled for assumption.


Just for the record (Enson), I have about 8 years of in-dojo experience before I "purchased" a Toshindo video. roughly 2 years of experience under one of the top Aikido instructors in the world, a year in Bujinkan, and about 5 years or wrestling (submission, pro).


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 1, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Just for the record (Enson), I have about 8 years of in-dojo experience before I "purchased" a Toshindo video. roughly 2 years of experience under one of the top Aikido instructors in the world, a year in Bujinkan, and about 5 years or wrestling (submission, pro).


And since your interest in the suggested video course comes from your interest in training in the Bujinkan, your point is...?


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## gmunoz (Nov 1, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> You're welcome. I'm glad I could be of help.
> 
> :asian:


You're such a helper!  We really need more people like you on martialtalk!


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## Cryozombie (Nov 1, 2004)

*Mod. Note. *

*Please be aware of the Martialtalk policy on Sniping*

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314*

*I do not want to see any more of our members suspended.*

*Thank you*

*-Technopunk*
*-MT Moderator-*


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## Kizaru (Nov 1, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> You're such a helper! We really need more people like you on martialtalk!


Thank you very much, I appreciate the compliment and kind words. I'll see if I can find some other friends of mine who'd like to add to the discussion here.

:asian:


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 2, 2004)

Just a comment on distance learning.

I have learnt Ninjutsu through distance learning. Iv,e watched videos, DVDs, read books but also gone to seminars in this country and abroad when teachers such as Hatsumi, Tanemura, Tanaka, Doron Navon and Stephen Hayes have taught seminars.

But then so has the guy down the road who teaches Genbukan, and the chap in Peterborough who teaches Bujinkan.

In fact I would hazard a guess that most people have learnt Ninjutsu this way, .  So few of us have stayed in Japan for any length of time to study the art but had to make do with seminar and learning from books, tapes etc, and this includes the high Dan Grades.

From what I understand is that the Home study approach to TO-SHIN DO which is backed up by books, DVDs and Videos allows a student to learn the Mechanics of a tecnique. This means that when that student comes into a Quest centre for the first time they have already got the gist of what is in the sylabus, some of the philosophy of Ninjutsu, how to apply a lock, a throw, how to do a break fall, safety implications, have worked out on pads, learnt the vocal commands, and some of the names for the techniques and so much more. 

OK some of the finer points may need to be pointed out by a teacher and corrected, but this means that that student does not need to be taught from scratch, and actually can advance at a faster rate as they already have some idea of what to do.

So guys unless you live in Japan, you may be actually doing distance learning. For a more detailed understanding of the TO-SHIN DO approach to the Distance learning, take a look at the DVDs and not just what you interpret from briefly scanning the web site.


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## Kizaru (Nov 2, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> Just a comment on distance learning...


I apologize if this seems ignorant, but what does that comment have to do with the topic of this thread, "Hybrid Martial Arts"? While you have raised valid points, maybe they would have more effectively been expressed in another thread...


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## Enson (Nov 2, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I apologize if this seems ignorant, but what does that comment have to do with the topic of this thread, "Hybrid Martial Arts"? While you have raised valid points, maybe they would have more effectively been expressed in another thread...


fyi, you seem to be at fault of the same thing... as your post have also influenced the topic shift. gary arthur is only commenting on the topic at hand. lets all post where we need to.

peace


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## Shogun (Nov 2, 2004)

Good points, everyone. So, back to the title of the thread.
I am kinda lost on whether To-Shindo should be in the modern/western section, or kept in the X-Kan section.


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## Kizaru (Nov 3, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> fyi, you seem to be at fault of the same thing... as your post have also influenced the topic shift.


Well, I've gone back and re-read my posts and I don't see where I'm "influencing the topic shift."

Unless you think I'm still "under the influence" here.

Again, I apologize if this seems ignorant, but I believe your comment here is both pre-emptive and lacking in substance. 

Have a nice day.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 3, 2004)

I agree that Neo-ninjutsu shouldn't really be listed under the section of Japanese martial arts.

On the other hand, shootfighting could be...:wink2:


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## Enson (Nov 3, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Well, I've gone back and re-read my posts and I don't see where I'm "influencing the topic shift."Have a nice day.


 this is actually technopunk's job but if you insist... your last four post have nothing to do with hybrid martial arts. in fact if i'm not mistaken most of them are just trying to get the last word with gmunoz cause you think you know more.

peace


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## Kalifallen (Nov 3, 2004)

As Nimravus said, "I agree that Neo-ninjutsu shouldn't really be listed under the section of Japanese martial arts.
On the other hand, shootfighting could be..."

Now I have no idea how shootfighting got into it unless he is kiddingly trying to point something out. But as for the first part I agree. Neo, hybrid, or modern ninjutsu is not traditional so it should not be in the same catagory as traditional/Japanese ninjutsu. A hybrid, neo or modern art is not (originally) traditional anymore because it has a new philosophy, style, or add ons. Thus it can't be fully Japanese anymore, hence it not being traditional.
Examples, Tew Ryu, Toshindo, RBWI. I will elaborate some. Tew Ryu is a hybrid art/style. He brings together hapkido, kickboxing, escrima and two types of ninjutsu (RBWI and Dux Ryu). Plus he applies he own philosophy but still holding onto same of the Japanese ways but in a Western outlook.
Toshindo is modern. Yes, it is Bujinkan but he doesn't use the Japanese philosophy. He uses the Western philosophy. Because of that it is a modern art.
RBWI (Robert Bussey's World International) is neo. Why? Well, it could go into the modern catagory but it has something that ninjutsu never had/has religon. And because of that is it better understood in the neo catagory. RBWI is Bujinkan ninjutsu with Christianity. 

I believe there is nothing wrong with following a neo, modern or hybrid art. Like there is nothing wrong is following the traditional art. I personally enjoy both.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 3, 2004)

My point was that shootfighting was created in Japan...which it was, believe it or not. Of course it shouldn't be listed under any type of "ninjutsu" but it does come from Japan.


----------



## Bujingodai (Nov 3, 2004)

Well though I could care less about what forum I go to. I've been to many Bujinkan dojo, which I trained in, vs some of the indie or neo dojo which I have trained in. The indies follow Japanese tradition more than the Kan's do, so in my experience anyway. So maybe some of the indies do not have direct lineage, some do.....they are training in a Japanese spirit, or tradition. Instead of making this a pissing match of who is more Japanese or not, can we actually discuss something with some meat to it. This particular arguement is some years old an will never be accepted by either side.
Just my opinion, but again I could care less where I post, at least there is a Neo forum, which the traditonals hijack all the time. So if there was a forum where they wouldn't do that then I am in support of it.


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## gmunoz (Nov 3, 2004)

By god marge!  I think he's got it!  I completely agree with Dave.  Seems like the only reason most Kan's come into modern is to attempt to downplay or set some record straight!  Pissing match? Yes.  Honorable? No.  And my teacher would agree... Now let's see how many comments I get from that remark!


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## gmunoz (Nov 3, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Good points, everyone. So, back to the title of the thread.
> I am kinda lost on whether To-Shindo should be in the modern/western section, or kept in the X-Kan section.


To-Shin Do is currently not being kept in traditional.  It apparently has no Japanese ties.  It is considered western/modern (which it is) which, in my opinion, should more accurately be named American Ninjutsu.


----------



## Kizaru (Nov 3, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> this is actually technopunk's job but if you insist...


I think technopunk is doing a pretty good job; if he needs help, I'm sure he'll ask for it.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> your last four post have nothing to do with hybrid martial arts.


Let's look at those past four post*s*...
4) 11-01-2004 05:21 PM- Thanking gmunz
3) 11-01-2004 07:58 PM- Thanking gmunz for his kind comment
2) Yesterday 08:00 AM- Noting that GaryArthur's post was a little off topic
1) Today 03:42 AM- Reaction to Enson's accusation



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> in fact if i'm not mistaken most of them are just trying to get the last word with gmunoz


You mean the same way you're trying to get the last word here with me? I know you and gmunz are good buddies and all, but I don't think you should be leaping to his defense every time his arguement starts to get shaky or when things get emotional.

How can a moderator be impartial if they're always running to defend one of their friends?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 3, 2004)

People, we're discussing the organization of these areas and a reallignment will be taking place shortly. We should announce those changes by this coming weekend.

Thank you
- The (Annoyed) Management.


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## gmunoz (Nov 3, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I think technopunk is doing a pretty good job; if he needs help, I'm sure he'll ask for it.
> 
> Let's look at those past four post*s*...
> 4) 11-01-2004 05:21 PM- Thanking gmunz
> ...


Kizaru, I don't need anyone to defend me. I can do that well enough by myself. If you read the actual post, Enson referred to "your last four posts." He is a moderator. I think mods deserve respect. If you have an issue with one you should contact them off of this forum and thread (PM or email) and cease from arguing with modern practitioners.  If you don't agree then don't!  No need to, as Dave put it, get in a pissing match over everything!  My gosh!


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## gmunoz (Nov 3, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> People, we're discussing the organization of these areas and a reallignment will be taking place shortly. We should announce those changes by this coming weekend.
> 
> Thank you
> - The (Annoyed) Management.


Thank you Kaith.  Why is it that certain traditional practitioners (we can name the handful) seem to think that they must rain on much of what is going on in modern?  I have yet to see any American ninjutsu practitioners go to the traditional side to start trying to tell them what they do is wrong.  Not once!  Why are they permitted to continue to do it in modern?  In fact, anyone can see that traditional is very inactive as a forum in general. However, you see the trads. VERY active in the modern side.  How weird!  And much of what they have to contribute only seems to cause rifts!


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## Cryozombie (Nov 3, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Thank you Kaith. Why is it that certain traditional practitioners (we can name the handful) seem to think that they must rain on much of what is going on in modern? I have yet to see any American ninjutsu practitioners go to the traditional side to start trying to tell them what they do is wrong. Not once! Why are they permitted to continue to do it in modern? In fact, anyone can see that traditional is very inactive as a forum in general. However, you see the trads. VERY active in the modern side. How weird! And much of what they have to contribute only seems to cause rifts!


 There are a few people on both sides of the fence that seem to like to stir the pot.  I for one would like to see everyone get along.


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> Tew Ryu is a hybrid art/style. He brings together hapkido, kickboxing, escrima and two types of ninjutsu (RBWI and Dux Ryu).



A point of contention. Frank Dux does not do ninjutsu. There is not a shred of evidence that he actually learned what he said he did, was employed by the CIA, fought in a "kumite", etc.

Robert Bussey does not do or teach ninjutsu and has not since the 80s. He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. He calls what he does "RBWI" and _not_ ninjutsu. Here is a post by one of his representatives on MartialTalk that explains how Bussey should not be counted as someone teaching ninjutsu. It is kind of like saying that anyone who trains with me knows silat because I have attended seminars in it in the past.

Rick Tew started his own version of what he thinks ninjutsu would be. I happen to disagree that the ninja would do what he does. But we are open to all views here. And as long as everyone is clear that the "modern" section is open to anyone who wishes to call themselves ninjutsu and the Traditional is devoted to the ninjutsu you can find in Japan, I see no problem. If less posts were started in the modern section on things like yoko aruki from the Takamatsu-den, there would be little reason for the Japanese guys to go over and correct what is being said about them.


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## Enson (Nov 4, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Robert Bussey does not do or teach ninjutsu and has not since the 80s. He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. He calls what he does "RBWI" and _not_ ninjutsu. Here is a post by one of his representatives on MartialTalk that explains how Bussey should not be counted as someone teaching ninjutsu. It is kind of like saying that anyone who trains with me knows silat because I have attended seminars in it in the past..


got me thinking after i read this post...


> To further clarify: RVD does not have two separate ranks in two separate arts. He is now 14th dan in budo taijutsu (the art formerly known as ninpo taijutsu, formerly known as ninjutsu).


 if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has? then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?:idunno: 

paece


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## heretic888 (Nov 4, 2004)

> if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has?



I have never heard of anyone giving Mr. Bussey a "bad rep" for changing the name of his organization.



> then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?



Ninjutsu is only part of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. That's no secret.


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## Bester (Nov 4, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Sorry, man. Never used the "karma system" before.   :asian:


 Use the Karma Luke!

 :rofl:


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## Bester (Nov 4, 2004)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!


 I've been busy.  I found this interesting little cartoon. It seems to define a few people here.  To the rest, who have been level headed and open minded, please enjoy a laugh on me.





 To the rest, well....


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> got me thinking after i read this post...
> if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has? then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?:idunno:
> 
> paece



Let me try to deal with this before it erupts into a flame war. Heretic basically said what I will, but let me expand.

I agree that if you have a Bujinkan rank that does not neccesarily mean you know anything about ninjutsu. Togakure ryu ninjutsu is taught in the Bujinkan, among other arts. Most people deal with Koto ryu, Takagi Yohshin ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc, _much_ more than they deal with the ninjutsu aspects.

However, you can study the kata of the Togakure ryu. Many instructors have not been taught them, but there are ones that have and in turn teach it to others.

It has been like this for years. Many people (like Bussey) do not seem to have ever encountered the Togakure ryu techniques, but got the old title of "Ninpo Taijutsu" (in itself a bit different from "ninjutsu") on their certificates. The new title of "Budo Taijutsu" is much more inclusive.

So yes, you can study ninjutsu in the Bujinkan, but not everyone who has trained in the Bujinkan has ever even been near a ninjutsu technique.


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## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

Hm, I can understand saying Bussey didn't teach ninjutsu in RBWI even though he learn ninjutsu. But I don't understand how you can say Bussey doesn't know ninjutsu because he just knows the basics or something.
_"He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. "_ quoted, Don Roley. (That's a statement, right?)
I mean he did go to Japan and learn from Hatsumi and the other instructors. Doesn't that mean he knows ninjutsu?

Besides, I believe if you learned from someone who knows the art of traditional ninjutsu then turn it into a modern or hybrid art (like how Bussey did). Then it still is ninjutsu because it has a link to the roots of the art. Even though it has been updated and changed. 
Though I can understand your opinion. I mean, how can you call something something if it doesn't repusent the art?
Though that is the reason why you add on the term modern or hybrid so that it is better defined.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> I mean he did go to Japan and learn from Hatsumi and the other instructors. Doesn't that mean he knows ninjutsu?


Not unless Hatsumi sensei taught him ninjutsu. Besides, I hear he trained mostly with Nagato sensei.


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## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

So Nagato doesn't know ninjutsu? Only Hatsumi?
That sounds weird.....


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> Besides, I believe if you learned from someone who knows the art of traditional ninjutsu then turn it into a modern or hybrid art (like how Bussey did). Then it still is ninjutsu because it has a link to the roots of the art. Even though it has been updated and changed.



To kind of expand on what Nimravus said, it is kind of like me trying to open up a boxing gym.

Did you know that Hatsumi studied boxing as a youth? Not many people do. But just because he studied it, and I have studied with him, does that mean I know the first thing about boxing? I do not think so. And I think I would know if I did.   

It is the same way with Bussey. As Nimravus points out, there seems to be no mention of him learning the very specialized skills of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If he had stayed in Japan for years and gotten down the things like Shinden Fudo ryu and Gyokko ryu, then maybe he would have been introduced to actual ninjutsu.

But even when talking about the Bujinkan as a whole, you have to take into account that Bussey distanced himself from the Bujinkan and mainly fell back on his Korean background for what he does. It is a mixed martial art, and not Bujinkan anymore. There may be a few wrist locks, etc from the Bujinkan thrown in, but viewed as a whole it is not what the Bujinkan does.

So just like how Hatsumi has learned boxing but does not teach it and therefore I cannot make claims of knowing boxing, Bussey has learned Bujinkan but does not claim to teach it and so his students can't say that they learned Bujinkan and/or ninjutsu.

I hope that made sense. I have not yet had my morning coffee.


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> So Nagato doesn't know ninjutsu? Only Hatsumi?
> That sounds weird.....



No, that is not what he is saying. He is responding to the comment by you that Bussey trained with Hatsumi. He has been in the same room with him, but the bulk of his training came from Nagato. The matter of ninjutsu is seperate.


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## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

Okay, yeah, I get it. I feel like I read a dictionary or something. 
I know you can't say you know ninjutsu if you've never actually learned it. Is that why they don't call Bujinkan ninjutsu anymore and instead call it taijutsu? Anyway.....
Yes, Bussey did teach the joint locks but you can't forget the rope climbing, weapons, water skills and all the other stuff that made his art so interesting.

So, if modern ninjitsu-ists aren't ninjutsu-ists then what are they? Or how would you describe them? For example, What would you say a Tew Ryu student is, or a Toshindo student is? Are they ninja or something else?


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> I know you can't say you know ninjutsu if you've never actually learned it. Is that why they don't call Bujinkan ninjutsu anymore and instead call it taijutsu?



Kind of. Just becasue you are in the Bujinkan does not mean that you will see ninjutsu. You can, but you may not. I have learned the Tonsoga from Hatsumi, but the bulk of the training I see is in Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc. IMO, the Koto ryu, etc is just a heck of a lot more well rounded than pure ninjutsu.



			
				Kalifallen said:
			
		

> Yes, Bussey did teach the joint locks but you can't forget the rope climbing, weapons, water skills and all the other stuff that made his art so interesting.



Of course, that is his idea of what ninjutsu should be and not what he learned in the Bujinkan- AFAIK.



			
				Kalifallen said:
			
		

> So, if modern ninjitsu-ists aren't ninjutsu-ists then what are they? Or how would you describe them? For example, What would you say a Tew Ryu student is, or a Toshindo student is? Are they ninja or something else?



That right there is the core of this debate.
 :cheers:


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## Enson (Nov 4, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is the same way with Bussey. As Nimravus points out, there seems to be no mention of him learning the very specialized skills of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If he had stayed in Japan for years and gotten down the things like Shinden Fudo ryu and Gyokko ryu, then maybe he would have been introduced to actual ninjutsu..


don, what proof do you have of this? documentation would be preferred. also that gets me thinking if bussey, who is famous for teaching ninjutsu throughout the world... doesn't teach ninjutsu cause he never learned it... even though that is apparently what he went to japan to study... how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.:idunno: noy hayes, bussey, etc... but you and a select few others... non of his original students.
and with regards to your post... then techniquelly not all bujinkan students should be posting here. if they have never learned a ninjutsu technique then how can they say they are learning ninjutsu?
to me ninjutsu is not a couple of set kata that you have to know to claim that you study it... to me it is a group of skills one attains to become a ninjutsu practicioner. like taijutsu, stealthing, exotic weapons, etc. of course from what i have been taught your taijutsu will flow/reflect into everything else... imo

peace


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 4, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.:idunno: noy hayes, bussey, etc... but you and a select few others... non of his original students.


It's actually quite simple. Perfect your taijutsu to a high enough degree and you will probably be exposed to ninjutsu sooner or later.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> and with regards to your post... then techniquelly not all bujinkan students should be posting here. if they have never learned a ninjutsu technique then how can they say they are learning ninjutsu?


They're not. At least the ones that know what they're talking about.
I for one practiced the santo tonko no gata for the first time in my life at a weekend seminar approximately four weeks ago, if anyone's interested.



			
				Enson said:
			
		

> to me ninjutsu is not a couple of set kata that you have to know to claim that you study it... to me it is a group of skills one attains to become a ninjutsu practicioner. like taijutsu, stealthing, exotic weapons, etc.


As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information.


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## heretic888 (Nov 4, 2004)

> also that gets me thinking if bussey, who is famous for teaching ninjutsu throughout the world... doesn't teach ninjutsu cause he never learned it... even though that is apparently what he went to japan to study... how do you(you meaning... bujinkan) know you are learning actual ninjutsu?.. or are you learning ninjutsu?... it just seems that you are very privledged to be one of the few that hatsumi has all of the sudden now started teaching "ninjutsu" to.



Enson, this has been explained in previous threads but here goes again.

At one time in the Bujinkan, everything was called "ninjutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from. 

Then, everything was called "ninpo taijutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.

Now, everything is called "budo taijutsu" --- which, as Don said, is a lot more inclusive term.

I once read someone's anecdote about the older training. When being taught a particular kata, the student asked if it came from Togakure ryu. Hatsumi-soke's reply at the time was, "It does now!"

There have been quite a few interviews with Hatsumi-soke about the subject and nature of the name changes. They can all be found online. I'll see if I can't dig one up for you later.

Regarding Mr. Bussey, he studied at a time in the Bujinkan when everything was called "ninjutsu". But, just because everything was blanketed that way at the time, doesn't necessarily mean he learned from Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu, or Gyokushin ryu.

In any event, its a moot point now. Bussey has not referred to what he does as "ninjutsu" in years. And, for good reason, too.

Laterz.


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## Don Roley (Nov 4, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> don, what proof do you have of this? documentation would be preferred.



Perhaps the question should be what proof does Bussey have that he knows specific stuff from the Togakure ryu.

I base my statement that I doubt Bussey ever learned specific stuff from Togakure ryu ninjutsu based on his lack of reference or commenting on the subject, or in ways that reflect he knows the content of the school. I also base it on the experience I have had in the Bujinkan and the way people are typically trained in the first part of their personal instruction. Nimravus just said that he finally saw them himself a few weeks ago after years of training under an instructor. They are normally not taught to people that have yet to get down the _kihon happo_ of the Gyokko ryu, and probably not to people that have not seen much of the Koto, Kukishinden and other schools of the Bujinkan in order to get down the basics.


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## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess?
What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu? Is taijutsu just learning the physical and some mental applications? Is ninjutsu like learning everything (physical, mental and spiritual)? What pushes taijutsu over the edge into ninjutsu?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess?


Not necessarily. You just have to have the right amount of skill and earn the confidence of the people who are knowledgeable about the subject (i.e. the Japanese shihan).



			
				Kalifallen said:
			
		

> What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu?


Ninjutsu is nothing you can practice per se, it has more to do with passing on information.



			
				Kalifallen said:
			
		

> What pushes taijutsu over the edge into ninjutsu?


What pushes the physical practice in PE classes over the edge into health and nutrition lessons?


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## Kizaru (Nov 4, 2004)

Kalifallen said:
			
		

> Hm, sounds like you have to be higher than 5th dan just to be able to learn ninjutsu. Would you say that is a good guess? What is the main difference between ninjutsu and taijutsu? Is taijutsu just learning the physical and some mental applications?


I'd say, "guess again".
:asian:


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## Shogun (Nov 4, 2004)

> At one time in the Bujinkan, everything was called "ninjutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.
> Then, everything was called "ninpo taijutsu" --- regardless of what ryu it came from.
> Now, everything is called "budo taijutsu"


Not to be a jerk or anything, (just wondering) but why is this section called Ninjutsu?
also, why is it called Budo Taijutsu? Taijutsu is only one type of japanese MA, and Bujinkan training includes all the bells and whistles (tools, weapons, Jujutsu, yoi Kumiuchi, etc)
Just wondering......because if one is so politically correct, then why not the other........


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 5, 2004)

I would suggest re-naming what is now the "traditional forum" into "Budo Taijutsu - Ninpo Taijutsu".


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## gmunoz (Nov 5, 2004)

Great idea Nimravus.  THe modern should in turn be named American Ninjutsu.  That would make things pretty clear.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 5, 2004)

Something along the lines of "American Ninja-inspired Martial Arts" seems more appropriate to me.


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## Bujingodai (Nov 5, 2004)

Yes becuase we should make all people who can't tolerate the ******** politics sound like Hollywood knobs.


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## heretic888 (Nov 5, 2004)

How about 'Ninpo'??  :uhyeah:


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