# Whats your favourite weapon?



## bob919 (Feb 4, 2003)

mines tonfa a pair of them well actually two pr-24 batons they work extremly wellmy second favourite is saicause they are so versetile 3-section staff are great fun two

whats your favourite


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## Cliarlaoch (Feb 4, 2003)

Sword (katana).


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## cali_tkdbruin (Feb 4, 2003)

A Glock... 

:2pistols:


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## tarabos (Feb 4, 2003)

barstool..


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 4, 2003)

My car. Employed driving away from trouble at a high rate of speed.


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## Master of Blades (Feb 4, 2003)

This nice Filipino sword I have.......great for poking


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## streetwise (Feb 4, 2003)

Knife, no question. I have always had a thing about knives. Tool/weapon/collector's item--don't leave home without one!


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## jfarnsworth (Feb 4, 2003)

The nunchuck. They are cool except when you screw up then you know that you screwed up.


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## muayThaiPerson (Feb 4, 2003)

my whistle. 

na, seriously: the knee


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## Doc (Feb 4, 2003)

Government issue Smith & Wesson 40 caliber model 4006.


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## Matt Stone (Feb 4, 2003)

"Being overly familiar with one weapon is as dangerous as knowing it insufficiently well..."

While I hope to one day be fluent in the four primary weapons my style teaches (broadsword, straight sword, staff and spear), I must confess a preference for my sticks and _jo_.  Knives are nice (I carry at least 2 - 3 every day, each with a different function and purpose), but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, gimme a jo any day of the week...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## KenpoDave (Feb 4, 2003)

I am.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 4, 2003)

But I like the butterfly swords, too.


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## chufeng (Feb 4, 2003)

First, my mind...
then my hands...
then whatever I can get my hands on...

maybe even another bad guy...turn him into a missile and take out his friends.


...then again, it might just be gas...

:asian:
chufeng


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## MartialArtist (Feb 4, 2003)

Mark 23


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## Matt Stone (Feb 4, 2003)

What's a Mark 23? 

I know what a Mark (MK) 19 is, but not a 23...


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## TLH3rdDan (Feb 4, 2003)

humm havent we done this before lol ive been having alot of deja vu lately and im not talking about the strip club... but anyway weapons wise... ill take my government model colt 1991a1 .45 which is always on me...
then my benchmade folding tanto also this is always on me lol... then hummmm i guess i would have to say 9 section steel whip and no this is never on me although i would what would happen if i did carry it and pulled it out in the middle of the street lol


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## MartialArtist (Feb 4, 2003)

First site found on google:

http://www.arizonagunrunners.com/Products/HK/Mark23/mark23.html


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## bob919 (Feb 5, 2003)

ok ok guns are the most practical but not as effective as everyone thinks i was once shot in the gut and it missed all my major organs (someone up there likes me) it hurt like hell but i still able to disarm the bastard. but i suppose if if had hi any major organs or even the minor ones it could have been alot different


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## Yari (Feb 5, 2003)

knife, stick or jo...

Never tried a gun, would love to....

/Yari


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## Shinzu (Feb 5, 2003)

i would have to say the nunchaku.  ever since i first started the MA:karate:


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## MartialArtist (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *ok ok guns are the most practical but not as effective as everyone thinks i was once shot in the gut and it missed all my major organs (someone up there likes me) it hurt like hell but i still able to disarm the bastard. but i suppose if if had hi any major organs or even the minor ones it could have been alot different *


A stick to the gut would hurt, but you can still disarm the guy if you can disarm somebody with a shot to the gut.

And I'm guessing the gun was a 9mm at its best.


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## Doc (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *ok ok guns are the most practical but not as effective as everyone thinks *



Yeah right, and punching someone in the stomach isn't the same as punching to the temple but I don't want either. So does that make the puncher "not as effective as you think.......?" The failure drill suggests two to the body and double tap the head.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 6, 2003)

I can't believe a shot to the gut will still make it possible to disarm a gun unless the guy didn't know what he was doing.  I've seen a lot of things in my experience, I've seen a guy break another guy's hand after getting a broken arm, but after a gut, I mean WOW.

But anyway, most confrontations with a gun is 2 meters or more...  So don't even try to disarm unless he really wants to kill you no matter what.


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## bob919 (Feb 12, 2003)

i think it was a 6mm but as i said it missed everything just hit muscle fat and skin but i was operating on adrenaline after this


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## bob919 (Feb 12, 2003)

it was one of those 6 shot starting pistols


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## shadowdragon (Feb 12, 2003)

The nunchaku. So far didn't try much of the other weapons, just a little bit of tonfa and bo, they seem cool too.


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## Disco (Feb 12, 2003)

A fully loaded B-52. (Can you say Avon Calling Mr. Saddam)


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## GaryM (Feb 13, 2003)

Well I let mine get a bit rusty and the edge is kind of dull now, and half the time the magazine is empty but my mind is still my favorite weapon. I just have this nagging feeling that I'm going to lose it .


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## MartialArtist (Feb 13, 2003)

Still, a hollow-point should have enough stopping power no matter what caliber.  A full metal jacket that was meant to penetrate will still stop you.


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## DAC..florida (Feb 13, 2003)

My favorte is my glock 19 ( mid size 9mm ) with a 15 rd. magazine full of hollow points.


To: Martial artist,
                  The U.S. army always used the berreta 9mm at least until they went to Korea, in korea they were finding that a 9mm was not  stopping the charging Koreans and this is when they decided to try out the colt .45 cal. wich did the job plus some.
Sometimes the cal. makes a big difference.


                                Hard training breeds warriors................


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## Disco (Feb 13, 2003)

DAC. When the Military was fighting in the Philippines, early 1900's against local tribes (Don't remember their name), did'nt they switch to the 45 cal then? Thought I saw that on the History Channel awhile back.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 13, 2003)

We were using the .38 caliber in the phillipines at that time.  And not the .38 special of today.  We did indeed switch over to .45 but contrary to popular folklore the .45 was not that much more successful.

The U.S. switched to the Beretta 9mm in the 80's.  A fine choice, though not quite the equal of a Glock.  

It is not hitting something that is important, it is hitting something important that is important regardless of caliber or any other factor with the exception of penatration.

Take care.


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## GaryM (Feb 13, 2003)

From what I have come to understand from many discussions a few anecdotal testaments and some studies. The 45 has the well deserved reputation for its incredible stopping power not from it's penetration. A man can live for up to 9 seconds after being shot in the heart, and a motivated individual with a weapon can kill you several times in that amount of time. A .357 has much more velocity and  energy than a .45 yet it has a tendency to expend a lot of that energy on the wall behind the subject. (maybe even the next wall and then the next too!) Yep, the subject is dead, but he may not know that yet. However the .45 tends to expend most of it's 900 ft lbs into the individual and sort of slams them to the ground hence the reputation for 'stopping' power. The reason for hollow point bullits is not penetration, quite the contrary, it is so that the object that the projectile encounters absorbs more of the energy from said projectile. Unless of course you are considering a stand off with your local constabulary who wear vests then you may want to consider smaller calibers, higher velocities, teflon coated bullits, mental counseling....


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## shadowdragon (Feb 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *A fully loaded B-52.  *



B52 is a hellish machine and I wish it would have never been built...  :vu: Unless you meant the band, that could be an effective weapon


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## shadowdragon (Feb 14, 2003)

Are you guys serious about liking guns so much ?? I have general dislike towards guns, never want to own and use one.....


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## Disco (Feb 14, 2003)

Shadowdragon, I to have no great love of guns, but they are nothing more than a tool. The sad part is that the entire world has them. The way the world society is changing, dosen't leave much room for peaceful resolves. A good example is England. The police were famous the world over for not carrying weapons. Well not any longer. Bobbies in several areas of London and other cities now carry guns. They were forced to out of a need fot self protection. But such is life. Since the dawn of time, man has and most likely will always find something to kill his fellow man with.
I guess we can call this an oxymoron = guns are a necessary evil.


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## shadowdragon (Feb 14, 2003)

You are right... maybe I did overreact when I was reading those messages... I know about the bobbies in England and even here in Finland criminals have more guns and also use them more.. during the recent years we have had violent incidents with the motorcycle gangs such as Hell's Angels and another that I think is their rival, they have been shooting each other, even in public places which before was unheard of. But I still prefer not to have a gun, I think it is safer that way. I can't remember a case where someone has used a gun in a burglary to someone's home.


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## Disco (Feb 14, 2003)

That is a shame. I always pictured Finland as a quiet and peaceful place. Now you have to deal with biker gangs. I'm ashamed that certain (reprehensibly) aspects of the American society have polluted your country. Stay safe and please accept my apology on behalf of all those and all that is good about America.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 14, 2003)

Toss up...

My Ruger P95, with the First Round  a Glasser Saftey Slug.  Say what you want about 9mm... 

Barring that, if you mean MARTIAL ARTS WEAPON (Yeah yeah, I know, the gun IS a martial arts weapon, taught by several styles including mine) but you all know what I mean...

The Hanbo.

Mine is a military issue riot baton.  Works great.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 14, 2003)

GaryM,

I need to clarify a few things in your post, please don't take it personally.  First...



> The 45 has the well deserved reputation for its incredible stopping power



The .45, like any service caliber is at BEST adequate against human beings based on many factors.




> A man can live for up to 9 seconds after being shot in the heart



An individual can live for hours, perhaps days after receiving a shot into or through the heart.  About 12 years ago an LAPD officer was shot through the heart with a .357 magnum at close range.  She returned fire with her 9mm, killing her attacker.  She survived emergency surgery and as far as I know is still on duty today [after a lengthy recovery of course].

William Platt in the 'FBI-Miami massacre' was shot numerous times with one 9mm round nicking the heart.  He survived and killed/wounded agents afterwards till he was shot in the head.  Which is not a guarentee either.





> However the .45 tends to expend most of it's 900 ft lbs into the individual and sort of slams them to the ground hence the reputation for 'stopping' power



The average .45 round does 850 feet per second.  To calculate its Ft/lbs of energy you convert the bullet weight from grains [usually 230] into lbs, then multiply by the square of it's velocity and then divide by two gravities [64.32].  The average .45 is lucky to produce 350 ft/lbs of energy per square inch.  It is physically impossible for a bullet, enen a rifle bullet in most cases to knock you over.  If the individual falls it is a psychological event NOT a physiological event.  In order for a bullet to knock someone over it would in turn knock down the shooter because for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.

And energy in the handgun levels is not even worth considering.  They don't mean anything till you get up into the high caliber rifles.  

The first consideration is function.  Does the round function flawlessly in your handgun?  The second is penetration.  Will the round penetrate to a vital area of the body from any angle?  Everything else is a distant third be it caliber, weight, velocity, bullet type etc.

Technopunk,

I would recommend against a Glaser Safety Slug.  Even the Magsafe.  Yes they do alot of surface damage but they do NOT even come close in real tissue to the required minimum of 12-14 inches.  They are lucky to penetrate 4 inches in live tissue, perhaps 6 for the Magsafe.  

Most torso shots are ubstructed by outstretched limbs which compounds the problem because of added muscle tissue.

Food for thought gentlemen.


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## bob919 (Feb 15, 2003)

actually hollowpoints only expand if they hit bone even if the hit a rib they wont deform that much and as for stopping power some people have the miss conseption that abullet is gonna knock down the attacker and even through him bak several feet if tha did happen you the shooter would also be thrown back several feet unless they were very strong it has been calculated tha a 9mm par round will move a man backwards at a rate of 2" a second not really much i think you'll agree

about 5 years ago a cop shot a criminal 6 times hitting him in the chest gut arms and legs one of which hit the next to the heart, the criminal was still conscious and shooting at the cop before anothe cop knocked out the criminal with the but of his gun

when a bullet is traveling under 1600 fps it will just leave a smalle hole usually not bigger than the bullet itself, explosive bullet woulds usually occur at about 2000+ fps 

as far as knocking out someone a baton to the head has a higher chance of success than a bullet to the body 

contary to poualar belief the caliber has very little difference 

all this said there is no finer weaon for dewfending yourself, just aim for the head


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## Cryozombie (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> Technopunk,
> 
> ...



Wow... Really?  The only thing I have ever shot with one was a Ham... it turned the Ham "inside out" and seemed to do a lot of damage... I never really considered penetration with the round... thats a damn fine point...


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## shadowdragon (Feb 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *That is a shame. I always pictured Finland as a quiet and peaceful place. Now you have to deal with biker gangs. I'm ashamed that certain (reprehensibly) aspects of the American society have polluted your country. Stay safe and please accept my apology on behalf of all those and all that is good about America. *



Finland is still quite a peaceful country, compared to some other European countries as well. We haven't had biker gangs incidents anymore, for about 1-2 years I think. Thanks for your concern though :asian:


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## A.R.K. (Feb 15, 2003)

Technopunk,

I've got a good video in my library on the Magsafe from about 1991 with Joe Zambone the inventor [rip].  It really looks good on ballistic geletin with lots of 'energy'.  And if you are fortunate to hit a straight on, unobstructed torso hit it 'might' incapacitate someone....very maybe.

As an instructor I get to use the F.A.T.S. machine from time to time.  It is a wall to wall, floor to ceiling projection tied into a computer.  On the screen are actors recreating real-life scenerios that officers have been in.  The scenerios are 'branched' to the computer.  You use a real gun with real ammo [neoprene screen].  The computer scores your reaction time, misses, hits and where the hit was located.  If you shoot your attacker before he gets to you and it is a lethal hit the BG may fall down.  If it is an iffy hit or bad hit he might keep going or fall down and then get up to continue the fight.  It's all controlled by the computer.

It is about as close to realistic as can be safetly utilized.  It even has a device that will 'shoot back' if you do not properly seek cover.  One heck of a computer ride!  It is so realistic that I have seen recruits walk away ready to fall out because of the stress.

Anyway I told you THAT to tell you THIS    8 out of 10 times I have to engage the BG I am shooting him through his outstretched arms.  The reason is that he is usually holding out a weapon be it firearm, knife, club etc.  Which is why he's being shot in the first place.  Look into a mirror and raise your hands up as though your aiming at someone.  Notice how you arms are over your COM [center of mass]. This is where we are taught to shoot [and head in some cases] because it is the largest part of the body and contains the vital organs.  If you could drae a rectangular box from between you eyes, about 5 inches wide and countinue it down to just above your belly button it would give you a good idea of what we are shooting for.  But because of outstretched limbs, or odd angles it is not always a straight on, unobstructed shot.  A round has to be able to penatrate that barrier and still go deep enough to hit something important.  

And that is still no guarentee with a handgun.  I have a 9mm and a .45 Glock.  I don't consider the .45 much better than the 9mm in terms of 'stopping power' [ a buzz word to sell gun rags].  I carry Gold dot 200 +P in the .45 and Gold dot 124 +P in the 9mm.

Both rounds have done a fine job in shootings in our Agency.  Hope this may help some.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *My favorte is my glock 19 ( mid size 9mm ) with a 15 rd. magazine full of hollow points.
> 
> 
> ...


That's my point, it's the caliber.  A 6mm will not cause as much damage as a .50

But what I'm saying is even a 6mm will have stopping power, especially in such close ranges.

In the Korean War, they used pistols at longer distances than what the guy was at.

US Army using the Berreta 9mm?  The issue gun from WWII on out to almost a few decades ago was the Colt M-1911 which uses .45 ACP


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *From what I have come to understand from many discussions a few anecdotal testaments and some studies. The 45 has the well deserved reputation for its incredible stopping power not from it's penetration. A man can live for up to 9 seconds after being shot in the heart, and a motivated individual with a weapon can kill you several times in that amount of time. A .357 has much more velocity and  energy than a .45 yet it has a tendency to expend a lot of that energy on the wall behind the subject. (maybe even the next wall and then the next too!) Yep, the subject is dead, but he may not know that yet. However the .45 tends to expend most of it's 900 ft lbs into the individual and sort of slams them to the ground hence the reputation for 'stopping' power. The reason for hollow point bullits is not penetration, quite the contrary, it is so that the object that the projectile encounters absorbs more of the energy from said projectile. Unless of course you are considering a stand off with your local constabulary who wear vests then you may want to consider smaller calibers, higher velocities, teflon coated bullits, mental counseling.... *


That's why a lot of rifles use .357


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *We were using the .38 caliber in the phillipines at that time.  And not the .38 special of today.  We did indeed switch over to .45 but contrary to popular folklore the .45 was not that much more successful.
> 
> The U.S. switched to the Beretta 9mm in the 80's.  A fine choice, though not quite the equal of a Glock.
> ...


Glock is more for law enforcement, not as much use in the military nowadays.  Most US Marines don't use a Glock.  Many soldiers in the Army today are fond of either SIG pistols or H&K pistols.  The elite forces also like SIG, H&K, and Magnum pistols.

The reason Glocks are excellent for law enforcement is that the recoil is low, you have twice as many bullets, and it's still powerful enough for street applications.  However, I'd rather opt for something like the H&K USP Expert as my secondary.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *actually hollowpoints only expand if they hit bone even if the hit a rib they wont deform that much and as for stopping power some people have the miss conseption that abullet is gonna knock down the attacker and even through him bak several feet if tha did happen you the shooter would also be thrown back several feet unless they were very strong it has been calculated tha a 9mm par round will move a man backwards at a rate of 2" a second not really much i think you'll agree
> 
> about 5 years ago a cop shot a criminal 6 times hitting him in the chest gut arms and legs one of which hit the next to the heart, the criminal was still conscious and shooting at the cop before anothe cop knocked out the criminal with the but of his gun
> ...


True, in most cases.

But caliber does have a lot to do with everything.  A 6mm vs. a .50 cal.  Hmmmm.  The exit wound of a .50 cal = :erg: 

Caliber also plays a difference in the pros and cons of a M-16 vs. an AK-47.  The 5.56mm shot out of a M-16 is dead accurate, but at longer ranges, the light bullet is susceptible to wind and the like.  The AK-47, is power.  The 7.62mm does a lot more damage at the same range and hit at the same target bu I forget how many joules.  The 5.56mm however has the "swiss cheese" effect.

These factors aren't so much caliber, but are caliber-related.  Gun design is more important.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

Again, a 9mm is better suited for street situations.  Less recoil, more bullets than something like a .50 that has 7+1 bullets at the most.

However, a 9mm will not work in other types of missions, like the counter-terrorist missions of the SEALs and the Delta Force, mainly due to the equipment the enemy has like kevlar w/ plate.


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

Kind of off the subject, just an interesting tidbit. I believe the gov't adopted the .45 in 1911, hence the designation 1911A1. It was used in ww1. Durring the making of the movie Sgt. York (with Gary Cooper) they tried to be as accurate as possible to the true story, but the govt. 45 wouldn't cycle with blanks, so in the scene where sgt. York kills the 7 german soldiers coming over the hill they had him use a luger for the film.


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## GaryM (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by shadowdragon _
> *Are you guys serious about liking guns so much ?? I have general dislike towards guns, never want to own and use one.....  *


 No. 1 rule for a gunfight... bring a gun!


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## MartialArtist (Feb 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *No. 1 rule for a gunfight... bring a gun! *


or don't show up


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## theletch1 (Feb 16, 2003)

The big trick with the use of any weapon, favorite or not, is the amount of hassle involved in defending yourself with it.  I have a concealed carry permit but am restricted in about 75% of the places that I go.  I drive a truck for a living so the federal gov't says I can't carry one at work.  If I use one to defend myself, then the guy I'm defending myself against had better have a gun himself.  Yes, I love my Glock for home defence, heck, my wife loves the 12 ga. for the home.  Neither of them are very practical for defending yourself in the "most litigious society in the world"  
  I'll have to agree with all of the others who have posted that their favorite weapon is their mind.  I'll let the situation dictate which weapon is my favorite at the moment.  I'm just waiting for someone to attack me in the parking lot of my kwoon while I have my weapons bag in my hand..... then I can try all of them in succession and find out for sure which is my favorite.... escrima, tonfa, knife, katana, nunchaku, sai or just yelling real loud for my instructor to come out and save my butt.

"make civilized the mind, make savage the body":asian:


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## bob919 (Feb 17, 2003)

caliber does matter i agree but not as much as people think aeven a 44 mag wouldn't knock most people down they would probably wall instantly but thats cause by the wound they are not thrown back like you seen in arnies films


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## MartialArtist (Feb 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *caliber does matter i agree but not as much as people think aeven a 44 mag wouldn't knock most people down they would probably wall instantly but thats cause by the wound they are not thrown back like you seen in arnies films *


Well, it's dictated by caliber in a way like you said.

Different calibers have their own set of advantages and disadvantages.  A disadvantage of a .50 AE is that the kickback is powerful enough to sprain your wrist if you limp it.  Plus, you don't get a lot of bullets.  Not only that, it also goes into penetration and/or stopping power.

The 5.56mm has the swiss cheese effect, where the bullet theoritically bounces around inside your body.  The .357 out of a high-power rifle is for penetration.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 18, 2003)

> Glock is more for law enforcement, not as much use in the military nowadays.



Actually Glock started off as a Military sidearm and gained quite a share in Europe.  U.S. LEO agencies started taking notice in a large way towards the end of the 80's.



> A 6mm will not cause as much damage as a .50



Alot depends on the bullet type i.e. Hp vs FMJ.  But even then it would be very hard to distinguish between the two in a wound tract.  Several ME's I have talked with say they are unable to distinguish caliber unless a slug or fragments are recovered.  In handgun calibers that is, rifle is a different ballgame.



> However, a 9mm will not work in other types of missions, like the counter-terrorist missions of the SEALs and the Delta Force



Haven't kept up with what they use nowadays, but the 9mm 147 subsonic in supressed weapons gained popularity with the seals for head shots at distance.

The bottom line would be to shoot the weapon that you are most comfortable/accurate with under stress.  Don't worry about buzz-words like 'one-stop-shoots', bullet energy etc.  As long as the round functions, penatrates to an adequate depth to reach something vital.  Function, shot placement and penatration are the priority.

If anyone is interested for much more indepth coverage of firearms I would recommend www.glocktalk.com

Not just for Glocks but the whole deal.


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## KatGurl (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bob919 _
> *mines tonfa a pair of them well actually two pr-24 batons they work extremly wellmy second favourite is saicause they are so versetile 3-section staff are great fun two
> 
> whats your favourite *



my favorite are knives. they can cut at any angle, they hurt, and they're shiny.

my second favorite are sticks. regular stick branches from trees. one reason is no one would suspect someone using them, and they're easy to get rid of.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 18, 2003)

Good lord! People often survive 9mm gunshots. A .50 will blow your head off clean! Or blow a hole the size of a foot ball in your torso!

Take the lesson learnt by the FBI, get a 10mm or a 45.  

Glock is great for reliability.  For superb accuratecy, HK USP. 

For 9mm self defence, get the BeeSafe prefragmented ammo. This will kick a hole the size of a softball in the torso. Instant kill!

Make sure you get DAO (Double Action Only).  It is prosecutor-proof.


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## SRyuFighter (Feb 18, 2003)

My favorite weapon is the Katana because I am pretty good with one and I have fun with them.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 18, 2003)

> People often survive 9mm



Well, to be honest, people survive most gun shot wounds even up to the rifle calibers.  Most people that get shot do not even fall down due to factors such as adrenaline rush or drugs/alchohol.



> Or blow a hole the size of a foot ball in your torso!



With repect, no.  Skin has elasticity which is why they commonly use media such as 10% ordinance geletin instead of water jugs or melons.  The later give a false impression of a rounds effectiveness.




> Take the lesson learnt by the FBI, get a 10mm or a 45.



The lesson that took quite a while to learn was that the round needed to have adequate penetration.  Be it a 124/147 9mm, a 165/180 .40 S&W/10mm or a 200/230 .45 acp.  It was not the caliber that was the issue, it was shot placement coupled with poor penetration.  Remembr the 9mm has killed/stopped more Bg's than all other calibers combined because of it's worldwide popularity.  Doesn't mean it's any better, just on par with the rest overall....which is pitifull.  Handguns and hollywood are not on the same sheet of music as far as reality shootings are concerned.





> For 9mm self defence, get the BeeSafe prefragmented ammo. This will kick a hole the size of a softball in the torso. Instant kill!



This round has the same concerns with it as does the Glazer/Magsafe line...poor penetration in soft tissue.  Yes it will make a good flesh wound, but surface bleeding is not the same as hiiting a deep lying major blood vessel/artery.  It will not stop a determined attacker.  It will not disable him/her and prevent them from counter/continuing the attack.

Please be careful of the 'exotic' ammo lines or the companies that bandy about phrases such as 'stopping power', One stop shot ratios etc.  The are catch prases begun by gun rags to sell magazines and products that advertise in them.  Don't bet your life, or the life of a loved one on gimmicks.  

Take care.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Actually Glock started off as a Military sidearm and gained quite a share in Europe.  U.S. LEO agencies started taking notice in a large way towards the end of the 80's.
> 
> 
> ...


Currently, almost no soldier in the elite forces (SEAL, Delta Force, Ranger, British SAS) use a Glock and for good reason.

Subsonic is not manufactured in large quantities, but there are a lot more .45 ACP and .308 ACP ones than 9mm, and .45 ACP is the choice for many soldiers.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Good lord! People often survive 9mm gunshots. A .50 will blow your head off clean! Or blow a hole the size of a foot ball in your torso!
> 
> Take the lesson learnt by the FBI, get a 10mm or a 45.
> ...


The exit wound of a .50 is pretty much large enough so will bleed to death regardless of where you're shot 80% of the time given you aim above the waist.


----------



## MartialArtist (Feb 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Well, to be honest, people survive most gun shot wounds even up to the rifle calibers.  Most people that get shot do not even fall down due to factors such as adrenaline rush or drugs/alchohol.
> 
> 
> ...


Well the 9mm is the choice for most SMG's as you get lots of bullets.  A SMG using .50 AE will have ridiculous kick-back not to mention only 20 rounds maybe.

The 9mm parabellum has a very long history.  The Nazis used them, the US used them, many people used them.  Pistol wise, I'm not so sure on the 9mm, I'm guessing .357 (what most revolvers used) but I may be wrong.  Remember, there were a lot more people killed in domestic issues than WWII (pistol casualties only) in the history of the US.  And 9mm was and is the choice for civilians and law enforcement.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 18, 2003)

Correction: No elite force member uses Glock 9mm


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## A.R.K. (Feb 19, 2003)

> Well the 9mm is the choice for most SMG's as you get lots of bullets. A SMG using .50 AE will have ridiculous kick-back not to mention only 20 rounds maybe.



I agree with you 100% on this.  Another good reason is that you get excellent barrier penatration in a 9mm with fmj's.  



> No elite force member uses Glock 9mm



You could be right on this.  I know that SF used to widely use 9mm but the .45 is coming back in vouge.  But as far as military goes I was thinking more along the lines of Europe and the Middle East.  Israel for example uses the Glock 19C 9mm with 115 grain FMJ in condition 3 for normal carry.  

I think the other pistol companies you mentioned are excellent as well.  I'm carrying a Beretta 92 on my side as we speak.  But I have noticed as an Instructor for Academies and advanced in-service for officers that Glock users seem on average to have fewer malfunctions and better follow up accuracy.  But, it all boils down to user preference.

My biggest point is not to get caught up into 'caliber wars' and OSS arguements.  Nothing against M&S [I'm very familar with both as we travel in the same circles], but their 'Definitive Study' is badly flawed and misleads the reader with potentially hazardous information.  Function, penatration, accuracy are the priorities.  Everything else is icing


----------



## MartialArtist (Feb 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *I agree with you 100% on this.  Another good reason is that you get excellent barrier penatration in a 9mm with fmj's.
> 
> 
> ...


Israeli forces use Glock 9mm as their small arm.  The Israelis have their Desert Eagle, which can use .357, .44, and .50. The Baby one can use 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

Glock is for supreme reliability, like SIG rifles or the AK-47.  Glock 9mm has very little recoil, so yes, follow-up accuracy is great.


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 20, 2003)

Sorry moving a little back to the more primitive items......I have changed my mind. My new favorite is A Kamagong! Beautifully DENSE stick with a nice length and weight. Damn are they sexy :rofl:


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> Well, to be honest, people survive most gun shot wounds even up to the rifle calibers.  Most people that get shot do not even fall down due to factors such as adrenaline rush or drugs/alchohol.
> 
> With repect, no.  Skin has elasticity which is why they commonly use media such as 10% ordinance geletin instead of water jugs or melons.  The later give a false impression of a rounds effectiveness.
> ...



You need to get your facts checked before making so many wrong remarks.

1. 40, 45 , 50 will drop you where you stand. You won't be standing. Chances of you surviving is not good.  For practical purpose, the 40 or 10mm is the best  choice.  The 50 is not practical.

2, Of course placement is the critical issue. However, in an emergency situation, torso shot is the most likely placement 99% of the time, unless you are elite forces.  In torso shot, 40 (10mm), 45 will do the job just fine.  

3. BeeSafe is proven in wound channel test. And so is MagSafe. These two eliminate the over penetration issue.   Go with these prefragemented ammo.  They are not what ZDW made them out to be.

4. Over penetration is the primary concern!  I have no idea how you could be saying that lack of penetration is the issue. This makes me suspicious of your credential.   Every firearm expert knows that over penetration is the problem. The issue is ENERGY TRANSFER! NOT lack of penetration!  How can you get it wrong?

What do you think hollow point, Hydrashok, prefragmented ammos are for? 

GIVE ME A BREAK!   

Given your comment on the FBI lesson, I am certain that you are NOT what you claim to be. I would venture to state that you just read a bunch of info and post them.


----------



## A.R.K. (Feb 20, 2003)

> You need to get your facts checked before making so many wrong remarks.



I think you need to stop subscribing to 'Guns & Ammo' and similar gun rags and begin thinking on your own.



> 40, 45 , 50 will drop you where you stand.



It is physically impossible for these rounds to knock you down.  We have something on this planet called the laws of physics, you may want to research this.  For instance, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.  If a handgun bullet could knock someone down physically it would also knock down the shooter.  If a person falls down it is a psychological reaction not a physiological one in regards to the bullet itself.  The only possible reaction is for example the bullet striking the pelvis in such a way that the body is unable to support itself.  And that, in and of itself does not preclude the possibility that the Bg is still able to respond.




> Chances of you surviving is not good.



Incorrect again.  Most people that are shot, even with a rifle survive.  If you disagree then simply respond with you researched documentation to support your claim.  I am basing my information on 18 years military/LEO data with real live action shootings.  I have taken custody of more shooting victims than I can remember.  I collect data not only from our agency but agencies around the country.  I await your data....



> the 40 or 10mm is the best choice. The 50 is not practical.



The .40 and 10mm are gimmick calibers.  Not that they aren't effective, they are.  But not anymore so that the 9mm and .45.  They were invented in conjunction with the ammo/firearms manufacturerers to boast sales to those that go for such things.  And of course it worked because there are those such as yourself that are constantly looking for the magic bullet.  Heres a hint to save you some money....it doesn't exist.  Go practice your shot placement.  You are correct on one thing, the .50 is not practical except for handgun hunting.



> BeeSafe is proven in wound channel test.



So is Glazer/Magsafe, but none of them take into consideration oblique angles or obstructed torso shots.  They are high priced gimmik rounds sold to those easily impressed with jello tests vs real life shootings.  Please show us your data base with positive results in exotic ammo shootings please.....

I know far more about Magsafe than you my friend, I used to talk to Joe Zambone reguarly before he passed away.  For a straight on, unobstructed torso shot on a smaller than average person...MAYBE it will be effective.  And that is a big BIG maybe.



> Over penetration is the primary concern!



Perhaps if your using FMJ's at high velocity...maybe.  We use a 124 +P gold dot 9mm which has EXCELLENT penatration usually in the area of 14-18 inches in jello.  Of the few times in MULTIPLE police action shootings we have had thus far only a small fraction of them were what could be termed 'shoot throughs'.  And those rounds were recovered on the ground within a couple of feet of the Bg.  The notion that most rounds zip through a body and sail down the street looking for innocent bystanders is incorrect.  It 'can' happen but very rarely does in real life.  





> Every firearm expert knows that over penetration is the problem.



Could you please provide your data base on ALL of these experts that state this.  Btw, I am an firearms expert and have been called into court to testify as to this expertise...so I'm one against.  In addition I can provide a LARGE comprehensive list of experts who will go directly against your 'opinion'.

I would direct anyone serious about defense with a firearm to go beyond the gun rags as their information is extremely biased, that is an understatement.  Check out firearmstactical.com for further references to authorities in this area.  Also glocktalk.com, look for Shawn Dodson.  



> The issue is ENERGY TRANSFER



This is a gimmick tagline along the same line as 'one stop shots', 'temporary cavitation', 'knock down power', 'stopping power' etc.  It is for the gullible with no technical expertise in what a wounding mechanism is, no offense.  [But your the one who opened this can of worms].  



> Given your comment on the FBI lesson, I am certain that you are NOT what you claim to be.



Look again my friend, the conflict was ended with a 158 grain LHP from a .38 revolver.  Please show us all where the .40/10mm is superior to the 9mm or .45.  Please site all your data base references.

Feel free to post back if you really wanna play with this topic...have a nice day


----------



## Master of Blades (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KatGurl _
> *my favorite are knives. they can cut at any angle, they hurt, and they're shiny.
> 
> my second favorite are sticks. regular stick branches from trees. one reason is no one would suspect someone using them, and they're easy to get rid of. *



You are not 12! :shrug:


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## Cryozombie (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *
> 
> So is Glazer/Magsafe, but none of them take into consideration oblique angles or obstructed torso shots.  They are high priced gimmik rounds sold to those easily impressed with jello tests vs real life shootings.  Please show us your data base with positive results in exotic ammo shootings please.....
> *



Zhao, 

I  read that Glasser ammo will shred Kevlar vests.  Not neccessarily penetrating it, but destroy it so that the next round will pass thru the vest. (It was in a paladin press book)  Is this an accurate statement? Or is it just Hype by the books author?  Again, the only thing I ever shot with this ammo (9mm BTW)  was a ham, so I don't know the specifics of what it is REALLY capable of doing.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> I think you need to stop subscribing to 'Guns & Ammo' and similar gun rags and begin thinking on your own.
> 
> It is physically impossible for these rounds to knock you down.  We have something on this planet called the laws of physics, you may want to research this.  For instance, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.  If a handgun bullet could knock someone down physically it would also knock down the shooter.  If a person falls down it is a psychological reaction not a physiological one in regards to the bullet itself.  The only possible reaction is for example the bullet striking the pelvis in such a way that the body is unable to support itself.  And that, in and of itself does not preclude the possibility that the Bg is still able to respond.
> ...



It is absolutely insane to state that you can take a 40, 45, 50 shot to the torso, let alone the head and still stand there. Pure garbage!  If you take a center shot from a 45, and you will DROP DEAD!!  Good lord ! the insanity!!

There are cases after cases where the bullet over penetrate the suspects, with 9mm. Without the energy transfer, the tissue destruction is minimal.  It is absolutely insane to argue about this. Only an armchair firearm expert would not understand this.

ZDW, you sir is a fake and a fraud.  I see no point what so ever in discussing this topic with you.  Your posts are to be categorically ignored.

Phonies like you, tend to mix some factual information with flawed personal opinions and post misleading garbage that will get uninformed readers killed.


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## GaryM (Feb 20, 2003)

This is my opinion on the whole pistol issue. 9mm with hydroshocks or equivilent ammo has plenty of stopping power for humans. Police are tought to 'double tap' ( shoot them twice) which is about as good as it gets for maximum shock. Only head or spinal column is an 'instant kill'.  40 and 45 is better for sure if you are comparing ball ammo only. If you carry a pistol as part of your job (law enforcement) then the Glock is great. Ultra reliable, light weight, up to 18 rounds per clip, very safe due to it being double action. (The trigger cocks and reseases the hammer on each shot, so you can carry it with one in the pipe.) It is also forgiving to lazy slobs who don't bother to clean it. If you want a pistol for more than just protection (i.e. fun) and want to be truly accurate forget the glock. Yeah yeah it will do 1.5" groups right out of the box yadda yadda. Not if you are holding it! Crappy site picture, horrible trigger pull, and just not the 'feel'.  I can chase a beer can 25 yards with my .45 Kimber and not miss once with an eight round clip. Try that with a glock. Not going to happen.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 20, 2003)

> It is absolutely insane to state that you can take a 40, 45, 50 shot to the torso, let alone the head and still stand there. Pure garbage! If you take a center shot from a 45, and you will DROP DEAD!! Good lord ! the insanity!!



I'm beginning to think you just have to much time on your hands and are not really serious about all of the 'stuff' your posting.  But just in case you really do subscribe to this nonesense, and for the benefit of those that simply haven't had the time or inclination to look deeply into this subject, here goes...... 

Contact the Las Vegas PD [I did].  Ask them about the police action shooting about 2 years ago in which an off duty officer got into a fire fight in a night club.  The officer was shot eight times with a .40 and once with a 9mm.  Let me repeat this in case you missed it.  The officer was shot EIGHT TIMES WITH A .40 and once with a 9mm.  Not only did he not fall down, he purposely dived for cover and returned fire with his piss-ant pocket .25.  He scored 6 shots COM and the Bg was DRT.  He survived surgery and is on duty today as far as I know.  It is public record, check it out.

Suspect shot by a neighboring agency that I took custody of.  He was shot 3 times with a 9mm COM [no exit wounds] and ONCE WITH A 12 GAUGE SHOTGUN, 00 Buck at close range.  He was mentally challenged and not only did he NOT fall down he had to be physically subdued by 3 officers.  These were picture perfect shots...but it's not a perfect world.  And in case you are unaware of it...a shotgun at close range with 00 buck has more 'energy transfer' than SEVERAL .40's.

I can cite case after case that you can easily verify as they are public record after the investigation is completed.    Again, I find it hard to believe that you seriously hold to the point of view you have expressed here.

Still waiting for you to cite your references and sources and experts.....

Technopunk,

I have no doubt that a Glazer/Magsafe makes a mess of a ham.  But the point is shallow penetration.  Will those rounds make it through an outstretched arm and deeply enough into a torso to strike vital organs or major blood bearing vessels?  Nope.  Please check out firearmstactical.com.  There is several excellent articles and tons of reading material.  Some directly speaking as to the dangers of the exotic rounds.  Take care


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## MartialArtist (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *It is absolutely insane to state that you can take a 40, 45, 50 shot to the torso, let alone the head and still stand there. Pure garbage!  If you take a center shot from a 45, and you will DROP DEAD!!  Good lord ! the insanity!!
> 
> There are cases after cases where the bullet over penetrate the suspects, with 9mm. Without the energy transfer, the tissue destruction is minimal.  It is absolutely insane to argue about this. Only an armchair firearm expert would not understand this.
> ...


What he means is that the force of the bullet isn't what knocks you over.  Physics tells us that you can't fall over from getting shot.  However, people falling over is a result of you dying, or human response.  If you get shot in the head, you'll fall, but it's not the force of the bullet but the bullet killing you that makes you fall over.

A .357 out of a high-powered rifle will go right through you.  You won't fall over because there is little energy transfer.  But, the person is likely to go to the ground if he gets shot out of a high-powered rifle.


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## pesilat (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *What he means is that the force of the bullet isn't what knocks you over.  Physics tells us that you can't fall over from getting shot.  However, people falling over is a result of you dying, or human response.  If you get shot in the head, you'll fall, but it's not the force of the bullet but the bullet killing you that makes you fall over.
> 
> A .357 out of a high-powered rifle will go right through you.  You won't fall over because there is little energy transfer.  But, the person is likely to go to the ground if he gets shot out of a high-powered rifle. *



Getting shot in a vest changes this, right? Not as far as knocking down, but more energy transfer (about like getting punched, right)?

Mike


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## MartialArtist (Feb 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Getting shot in a vest changes this, right? Not as far as knocking down, but more energy transfer (about like getting punched, right)?
> 
> Mike *


I'm noy 100% sure.

Many high-caliber rifles go right through kevlar vests.  However, if the vest absorbs most of the energy of a 9mm, then it'll hit you with more force in the sense that it is like a punch.

A lot of people have been shot with a normal 9mm with vests on and it causes bruises.

Remember, there are many types of bullets for each caliber.  The 5.56mm out of a M-16 like I said before, causes the swiss cheese effect where it bounces around in your body causing internal holes theoritically.  A 7.62mm out of some snipers punch right through you.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 20, 2003)

Anyway, if I had a Hummer, I will try to obtain one of these...

http://web2.airmail.net/bcunning/losat2.mpg

Kinetic Missile that can go Mach 5


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## A.R.K. (Feb 20, 2003)

A good example would be an individual I took custody of several years ago.  He was chasing a woman in her front yard with a butcher knife.  Responding officers shot him multiple times in the arm & leg as his body was bladed to them.  The rounds broke the upper arm and the femur bones.  He fell down as a result of the injury, not the force of the rounds hitting his body.

An important note to this is that he was injured but not incapacitated.  He was unable to continue the attack only because his knife had a limited range.  Had it been a firearm he would have been able to return fire.

Being shot in the vest isn't fun of course, and describing it as a punch is a very good comparison.  

And a clarification I think is in order.  The .40 is fine for defense, however it needs to be kept in perspective.  It is 1mm more than a 9mm and 1mm less than a .45.  Velocity is similar to the 9mm and sectional densities are the same in regards to 115 9mm compared to 135 .40 compared to 185 .45 for example.  Given similar velocity and sectional density a 1mm is not anything to get excited about.  And certainly no reason to sell my 9 and .45 to get one   

Priorities:
Function
Shot placement 
Accuracy
Follow up shots

Everything else is just stuff to talk about


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I'm noy 100% sure.
> 
> Many high-caliber rifles go right through kevlar vests.  However, if the vest absorbs most of the energy of a 9mm, then it'll hit you with more force in the sense that it is like a punch.
> ...



Battlefield reports indicate that the 5.56mm has the tendency to require multiple shots to put down the target while the 7.62 or 308 is one shot one kill.  

I understand that the 5.56mm can have drastic wound effect in many situations. But battlefield results show that soldiers would rather have 7.62mm.

About the Kevlar, to stop assault rifle shots, ceramic plates are needed.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *What he means is that the force of the bullet isn't what knocks you over.  Physics tells us that you can't fall over from getting shot.  However, people falling over is a result of you dying, or human response.  If you get shot in the head, you'll fall, but it's not the force of the bullet but the bullet killing you that makes you fall over.
> 
> A .357 out of a high-powered rifle will go right through you.  You won't fall over because there is little energy transfer.  But, the person is likely to go to the ground if he gets shot out of a high-powered rifle. *



That is not what happens in real life.

When you get shot with a 45, you are going to get energy transfer.  You are going to get a nasty wound channel with serious tissue damage. You are going to fall on your *** and meet your maker!  The 45 is battle field proven. The 1911 KILLS!!  How can people who claim to be firearm experts not know this?  GIVE ME A BREAK!  This is like arguing with the town's drunk!


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _...... I know that SF used to widely use 9mm but the .45 is coming back in vouge. ...



DUH!!  I wander why! 

Military are not allowed to use hollow points, by Geneva Convention.  To circumvent the over penetration and lack of energy transfer problem, they found the solution in the battle proven 45!  

The problem with 45 , for civilians, is the recoil. To circumvent that, you just need to practice often. The 45 has another problem, it goes through wall like sh* t  goes through geese.  For civilian defence, you had better develop good shooting skills or get the prefragmented ammo.


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## GaryM (Feb 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * The 5.56mm out of a M-16 like I said before, causes the swiss cheese effect where it bounces around in your body causing internal holes theoritically.  *


 The 5.56 doesn't really 'bounce around' in your body. Because of the Geneva convention military ammo is non-expanding. So to increase the effectivness of the relativly small light round (basically a .22) the shape of the bullit tends to cause it to tumble when it hits tissue. Some times when it hits bone it will take off in crazy directions and exit in stange locations. I guess you could call this bouncing around, but not like a pong game!


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> A good example would be an individual I took custody of several years ago.  He was chasing a woman in her front yard with a butcher knife.  Responding officers shot him multiple times in the arm & leg as his body was bladed to them.  The rounds broke the upper arm and the femur bones.  He fell down as a result of the injury, not the force of the rounds hitting his body.
> 
> An important note to this is that he was injured but not incapacitated.  He was unable to continue the attack only because his knife had a limited range.  Had it been a firearm he would have been able to return fire.
> ...



Had that individual been shot with a 45, he would be DOWN. 

If people insist on 9mm, get the Remington 115 +P+ rounds (Law Enforcement use). It is a stone cold killer.  *sigh* Hope they never have to pull the trigger. There is enough misery in the world already.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Battlefield reports indicate that the 5.56mm has the tendency to require multiple shots to put down the target while the 7.62 or 308 is one shot one kill.
> 
> I understand that the 5.56mm can have drastic wound effect in many situations. But battlefield results show that soldiers would rather have 7.62mm.
> ...


Rifles using 7.62, like the M14 and the AK-47, don't have the best follow-up shots.  The AK-47 can get very difficult to control when going full-auto, and even going at a couple-round bursts gets you a bit tired after a while.  Single-shot, no problem.

Comparing 5.56mm and 7.62mm isn't really about which is better, but about the guns that use them.  The M16 is superior weapon compared to the AK-47.  It's been like that since the 1980's or so.  During the Vietnam War, there were many problems while the AK-47 could go through mud and water.

The new H&K rifle being developed, the OIWC? or something like that, is going to use 5.56 I believe.  There's good reason for that.  It might be in 7.62 but I'm not sure.  The only real problem I could think of is 5.56 at great distances, where wind and other conditions can sway the bullet off course a bit.

Battlefield results, can you post a link?


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## MartialArtist (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *That is not what happens in real life.
> 
> When you get shot with a 45, you are going to get energy transfer.  You are going to get a nasty wound channel with serious tissue damage. You are going to fall on your *** and meet your maker!  The 45 is battle field proven. The 1911 KILLS!!  How can people who claim to be firearm experts not know this?  GIVE ME A BREAK!  This is like arguing with the town's drunk!   *


We are not arguing that.  If I remember, nobody is.

What I'm arguing about is that energy transfer is NOT what knocks you down.  It is what HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF THE BULLET that knocks you down.  Hypothetically, if the pistol shot something that did not penetrate you but was just pure force, it would not knock you down.

It's the result of the bullet that knocks you down like I've said before.  If you get shot in the leg, you will limp or fall down.  It's NOT THE ENERGY TRANSFER, it's the bullet and the damage it causes.

The 45 kills, who said it didn't?  The Browning pistol killed for almost a 100 years.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *DUH!!  I wander why!
> 
> Military are not allowed to use hollow points, by Geneva Convention.  To circumvent the over penetration and lack of energy transfer problem, they found the solution in the battle proven 45!
> ...


Most civilians use a 9mm para or .40 S&W I believe, I'm not sure, but you may know what poll I'm talking about.

A .44 magnum, or a .440 cor-bon, and a .50 AE have the ability to go through class II bullet-proof vests (out of a DE), the person behind it, and still retain its lethal abilities for at least a kilometer.  The .440 cor-bon is very dangerous, has a high fps rating, and a lot of recoil behind it.

The .45 H&K USP Expert had less recoil I thought than a Beretta .40 S&W or a Taurus.  I believe it's due to superior design but then again, it's a $1200+ handgun.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *The 5.56 doesn't really 'bounce around' in your body. Because of the Geneva convention military ammo is non-expanding. So to increase the effectivness of the relativly small light round (basically a .22) the shape of the bullit tends to cause it to tumble when it hits tissue. Some times when it hits bone it will take off in crazy directions and exit in stange locations. I guess you could call this bouncing around, but not like a pong game! *


No, it does not zig-zag around your body.  I apologize if my wording gave you the wrong impression.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 22, 2003)

self-defense = 9mm glock is the best, but .357, .380, or .40 S&W
military = .45 ACP
hunting = .44 magnum, .440 cor-bon, .50 AE


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> We are not arguing that.  If I remember, nobody is.
> 
> What I'm arguing about is that energy transfer is NOT what knocks you down.  It is what HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF THE BULLET that knocks you down.  Hypothetically, if the pistol shot something that did not penetrate you but was just pure force, it would not knock you down.
> ...



I wasn't arguing with you. Sorry about the misleading statement.

Back to the post. When the bullet thumbers inside you, your body is absorbing the kinetic energy.  When the bullet goes clean through you, there is little to no energy transfer.  If you think you would still be standing there with a bullet thumbling inside your torso, you must be one real heavy mof*.  

The reality is, people die from 22, 25 all the way to 50. It is safe to say the real factor is a combination of caliber, load, and shot placement.  People survived point blank shots; people killed by 9mm bullets skimming across a lake a mile wide.  Some cirminals survived 5-6 shots from the COPS; some innocent kids died from a BB shot from their friends' air pistols.  You can't really generalize with absolute certainty.  The only certainty is Murphy's Law.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> Rifles using 7.62, like the M14 and the AK-47, don't have the best follow-up shots.  The AK-47 can get very difficult to control when going full-auto, and even going at a couple-round bursts gets you a bit tired after a while.  Single-shot, no problem.



7.62 don't get deflected by tree branches and don't fragment easily.

5.56, you can carry more rounds per trooper. 


> Comparing 5.56mm and 7.62mm isn't really about which is better, but about the guns that use them.  The M16 is superior weapon compared to the AK-47.  It's been like that since the 1980's or so.  During the Vietnam War, there were many problems while the AK-47 could go through mud and water.



In Somalia, the report was that, several 5.56mm shots were needed to down the "technicals" doped high in Kat or whatever hell they smoked down there.  Similar reports are filtering out of Afghanistan.

7.62 is one shot one kill. 

The M16 problem experienced in Vietnam was resolved in later designs. 


> The new H&K rifle being developed, the OIWC? or something like that, is going to use 5.56 I believe.  There's good reason for that.  It might be in 7.62 but I'm not sure.  The only real problem I could think of is 5.56 at great distances, where wind and other conditions can sway the bullet off course a bit.



THe QIWC is a heavy and expensive sucker.  I don't know much about it.



> Battlefield results, can you post a link?



http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9302&archive=true


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> Most civilians use a 9mm para or .40 S&W I believe, I'm not sure, but you may know what poll I'm talking about.
> 
> A .44 magnum, or a .440 cor-bon, and a .50 AE have the ability to go through class II bullet-proof vests (out of a DE), the person behind it, and still retain its lethal abilities for at least a kilometer.  The .440 cor-bon is very dangerous, has a high fps rating, and a lot of recoil behind it.
> ...



The Corbon 440 is a 45 load propelling a 40 caliber.

It is a dilemma. If you face a criminal with bullet-proof vest (as many gangbangers are catching on), your prefragmented MagSafe, BeeSafe, HydraShok are not going to work. Yet, if you shot an armor piecing round, you might risk over penetration and kill your neighbor across the street.

The solution is not to live in situation where such gunfight is necessary.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *The Corbon 440 is a 45 load propelling a 40 caliber.
> 
> It is a dilemma. If you face a criminal with bullet-proof vest (as many gangbangers are catching on), your prefragmented MagSafe, BeeSafe, HydraShok are not going to work. Yet, if you shot an armor piecing round, you might risk over penetration and kill your neighbor across the street.
> ...


Isn't the Corbon 440 a .50 AE loaded into a 44 magnum?


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## MartialArtist (Feb 23, 2003)

For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage.  Reliable, and think about it.  It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark.  Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really.


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## pesilat (Feb 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage.  Reliable, and think about it.  It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark.  Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really. *



Personally, I'd have a 20 or even a .410

My primary reason is that my wife would be able to use it without as much fear of the recoil and the bad guy won't know the difference anyway.

Mike


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 24, 2003)

More battlefield report on the 9mm.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9316&archive=true

This is real life. Not ZDW's day dream.

"...Our issue M-9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable, another wrote to Hackworth. They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range."

Some soldiers are coping by packing heftier .45-caliber pistols, similar to those used by generations of soldiers and Marines since before World War II. Such .45s remain in the U.S. military inventory, but the origin of those used in Afghanistan  military issue or privately owned  remains unclear.

Whats not unclear to several of those using the older weapon is its value. It saved my life, one Army Ranger told Hackworth. I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldnt have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range.

A Special Forces sergeant in Afghanistan wrote to Hackworth, The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Berettas 9 mm will, too  eventually  but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasnt the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds....."


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 24, 2003)

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9317&archive=true

Marines' 45

"..They need a weapon that will be able to put somebody down now, Tafolla said. It all comes back to the energy you deliver to the target. Although the 9 mm is faster, the .45 is able to deliver more energy and achieve greater penetration. Thats what you have to have. ....'


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Isn't the Corbon 440 a .50 AE loaded into a 44 magnum? *



Actually the correct term is Corbon 400.

It is a 45 tapered to power a 40.  Most 45 can be converted to fire Corbon 400 with a barrel drop change.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage.  Reliable, and think about it.  It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark.  Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really. *



That depends on what kind of wall you are talking about. It may not penetrate the concrete. But it might shred your bedroom wall and hit your kids next room!    I suggest checking into some of the non lethal 12 gauge rounds or the specially designed low-penetration rounds (hollow rounds that collapse).


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pesilat _
> *Personally, I'd have a 20 or even a .410
> 
> My primary reason is that my wife would be able to use it without as much fear of the recoil and the bad guy won't know the difference anyway.
> ...



There are low recoil 12 gauge load. Check it out.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Actually the correct term is Corbon 400.
> 
> It is a 45 tapered to power a 40.  Most 45 can be converted to fire Corbon 400 with a barrel drop change. *


You're talking about a different bullet.

http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_440.htm

Corbon 440 is for the magnum bullets.  Like on a Desert Eagle.  .357 out of there will knock a guy down in one hit, same with teh .44 magnum, and the .50 AE

I've shot about a hundred .357 rounds out of a custom-made nickel DE.  Not bad, very little recoil (due to its weight), very powerful.  Then, I tried the .50 AE with a different DE (both DE's were not mine).  You get pretty tired after a while with those.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *That depends on what kind of wall you are talking about. It may not penetrate the concrete. But it might shred your bedroom wall and hit your kids next room!    I suggest checking into some of the non lethal 12 gauge rounds or the specially designed low-penetration rounds (hollow rounds that collapse). *


if it can go through about 6 inches of marble, with steel reinforcement (I have an old house).


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## Infight (Feb 25, 2003)

1. Nade
       2. M16
       3. Entire me
       4. My Knee


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## A.R.K. (Feb 25, 2003)

Been gone for a few days so alot of posts have been made.  I need to interject a few points of reality here.  The .45 is a fine weapon.  But it is not the killing caliber that JN is making it out to be.  Not by a long shot.  I need to get this point across so that folks are not mislead by others with nonsense like energy transfer.

A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration.  Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.  

I am familar with Hackworth's apprasial of the Beretta.  However, his article was debunked as biased and having a hidden agenda.  The sources were unreliable.  Much discussion is available on glocktalk.com concerning this.  Anyone interested need simply do a search.

I would ask again JN for your sources on the data you cite???  You tout the .45 over the 9mm because of 'energy transfer' yet the 9mm has more kinetic energy [or equal if talking non +P rounds].  And the 115+P has a notorious reputation in real world shootings for underpenetration...that is a fact.  I have supplied several sources for purposes of verification.

You challenge my expertise in this area but do not supply hard data and sources [except that which has been discredited] and recite gun rag retoric word for word.  Let me be very clear on this once again, Function, Penetration & accuracy are the priorities.  There is no practical difference in terminal performance between service calibers. And items such as energy transfer, temporary wound channel, kinetic energy, stopping power, knock down power etc are gun rag catch phrases designed to catch the attention and money of the gullible.  

Get a firearm that you shoot well with and practice.  Get a round that functions well and has adequate penatration and train.  Don't waste your time looking for a magic bullet or caliber...they don't exist.

Cheers


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## MartialArtist (Feb 25, 2003)

Bigger round usually means more damage for pistols.

It's not the energy that's really important for damage, because a gun can release 100 more joules than another gun but cause less damage.

That's why when hunting with a handgun, people don't recommend you use anything lower than a .44 magnum.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 25, 2003)

Martial Artist,



> Bigger round usually means more damage for pistols



I agree with you, mostly    A bigger round 'can' do more damage BUT we need to keep it in perspective.  a .40 is 1mm larger than a 9mm.  A .45 is only 2mm larger than a 9mm.  That is not really anything to get excited over.  

When speaking about hollow points [when they open], a 9mm can open up almost as large as a .45 with the right ammo brand.  And a smaller expanded diameter sometimes means the bullet has over expanded to a smaller recovered diameter.  If the bullet is not recovered in the body it is often difficult or impossible to determine handgun caliber used.  

Yes it can cause a bit more damage, and every edge helps I suppose but being accruate with follow up shots is more important than initial caliber.  FMJ's would be even closer.

We agree on much though.  What I have to disagree with is the typical OSS line that others seem to push.  It can cause good people to get hurt or even killed.

I used to be a velocity proponent.  The faster the better.  But the more I researched and the more real-world practical experience I gained destroyed that position.  Firearmstactical by Shawn Dodson has some fine information as well as the IWBA.

Take care


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## MartialArtist (Feb 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Martial Artist,
> 
> 
> ...


1mm isn't that big of a difference if you look on a scale, but for bullets, it determines many factors such as speed, force, range, less susceptibility to environmental conditions, the ability to fit a few more rounds, etc.  Compare the pictures of a .44 magnum and a .50 AE.  The diameter isn't all that different, but look at the bullet.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 25, 2003)

For JN, here is more info on the 440 corbon.

http://209.159.200.198/440corbon.html


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## A.R.K. (Feb 25, 2003)

You have some valid points.  When talking about the .44 magnum/.440 Corbon/.454 casul/.50 A&E or magnum things like kinetic energy start to take on meaning.  The are getting up into the 'somewhat' respectable range considering rifle ballistics.  

If memory serves me, the .454 for example has roughly 3 times the 'energy' of a warm .357 magnum i.e. around 1500 fpe.  Now we are talking impact  

But at normal 9mm to .45 levels it is just not a measurable factor towards terminal ballistics.  Sure, it plays a part, but the bullet striking a vital is much more of a consideration.  I cringe when people start talking about neorological shock and things of this nature.  I had the same converstation with another poster on another site as I am with JN.  Only his thing was the .357 sig.  According to him it should've been mounted on naval warships for use in anti aircraft batteries    He kept citing M & S's OSS study not realizing it was discredited information.  However, sadly people are still taken in by these things.  

I used to load up with the 115+P corbon.  That was years ago and quite a bit of real world experience ago.  Now it is the Gold dot 124+P in part because of the fine results our agency has gotten in numerous shootings over the last 5-7 years.  Good function, great penetration in tissue and barriers, decent expansion, excellent weight retention and superb accuracy.  Thats a pretty good combination.  

Good talking with you on this MA.  I think we are very nearly on the same sheet here  

Take er easy.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 25, 2003)

However, a 9mm, although faster a lot of the time compared to similiar .45 counter-parts of the same pistol, it won't bring a person down really in one shot.  If the guy is wearing a kevlar vest, a 9mm is like a peashooter.  One sure way is to aim for the head, but that is not always practical.

A .50 on the other hand, goes right through the vest and the person, and a 6 inch slab of concrete.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Been gone for a few days so alot of posts have been made.  I need to interject a few points of reality here.  The .45 is a fine weapon.  But it is not the killing caliber that JN is making it out to be.  Not by a long shot.  I need to get this point across so that folks are not mislead by others with nonsense like energy transfer.
> *


*

You are such an arm chair expert.  We have men in the field, using 45 and 9mm to fend for their lives. Who has more credibility, you or them?  No contest.

I suggest you take up a course in physics about energy transfer, and stop making a fool of yourself in making scientifically baseless statement. You have been contradicting yourself and not knowing it. See if you can figure out what you stated wrong, in your statement I quoted below. I'll let you work on this one by yourself first. 




			A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration.  Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.
		
Click to expand...

same old same old.  Nothing new. Just because you keep repeating some BS does not make it true.  




			I am familar with Hackworth's apprasial of the Beretta.  However, his article was debunked as biased and having a hidden agenda.  The sources were unreliable.  Much discussion is available on glocktalk.com concerning this.  Anyone interested need simply do a search.
		
Click to expand...

So easy to mouth off some baseless accusation. Care to back up your accusation with some proof? Just because you say so, does not mean squat. Hackworth has far more credibility than you sir.  What does Mike Clark call you again?




			I would ask again JN for your sources on the data you cite???  You tout the .45 over the 9mm because of 'energy transfer' yet the 9mm has more kinetic energy [or equal if talking non +P rounds].  And the 115+P has a notorious reputation in real world shootings for underpenetration...that is a fact.  I have supplied several sources for purposes of verification.

You challenge my expertise in this area but do not supply hard data and sources [except that which has been discredited] and recite gun rag retoric word for word.  Let me be very clear on this once again, Function, Penetration & accuracy are the priorities.  There is no practical difference in terminal performance between service calibers. And items such as energy transfer, temporary wound channel, kinetic energy, stopping power, knock down power etc are gun rag catch phrases designed to catch the attention and money of the gullible.
		
Click to expand...


Let me make it clear again. For someone who claims to be a firearm expert (among a whole bunch of other things), your statement about 45 being 2mm larger than the 9, sold you out clearly.  LMAO!  A real firearm expert would know to look at the Cross Section!!  Try that, ZDW. May be then you will start learning something.

You keep asking sources, yet you are unable to bring yourself to read those links I posted.  I assure you that battlefield reports have far more credibility than your internet forum.*


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> ....If memory serves me, the .454 for example has roughly 3 times the 'energy' of a warm .357 magnum i.e. around 1500 fpe.  Now we are talking impact  ...



Why bother with this, if energy transfer is not the issue? Why even bother with impact?  

I have a feeling you don't really know the true definitions of these terms.


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## A.R.K. (Feb 27, 2003)

Oh Johnny    You just keep stepping in it don't you.  And you don't even realize it, thats the sad part.



> You are such an arm chair expert.



Uhmmm no.  Not with two decades of actual military/LEO experience under my belt.  I used to think the way you do....when I was a teenager that watched alot of TV.



> We have men in the field, using 45 and 9mm to fend for their lives. Who has more credibility, you or them?



The same because I'm still in the 'field' and still seeing both live action shootings as well as researching data for mine and other agencies.  Here's a hint for you...there is much more to this field than reading Guns & Ammo.  

I refer you, once again, to firearmstactical and Shawn Dodson as well as the International Wound Ballistics Association for some REAL data on REAL shootings involving REAL people.  You REALLY need to put aside your pride and look at something beyond what you think you know.  You are not an expert in this field my friend.  No offense, but you are not.  I'm an expert witness in this field because of my background and research.  And it's public record for any and all to check out.  

Have you ever seen someone get shot in real life in front of you?

Have you ever compared terminal wound ballistics?

Have you ever been called into court to testify as to your expertise in this area?

How many Firearms Instructor certifications do you hold?

How many prisoners have you taken custody of/interviewed that were wounded in a police action shooting or domestic dispute?



> A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration. Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.



There is nothing wrong with this statement.  For example let's use the 9mm round I am carrying right now as I type this post.  It is a Gold Dot 124+P 9mm with a nominal muzzle velocity of 1220 FPS vs a standard 230 .45 with a nominal muzzle velocity of 850 FPS [IF it is out of a 5 inch barrel].  

Lets do the math shall we....

124 divided by 7000 [bullet weight in lbs = 0.01771428...
multipied by the square of the velocity = 26365.94...
divided by two gravities [64.32] = 409.91 FPE

So the 9mm +P has 410 FPE

230 divided = 0.032857...
multiplied = 23739.28...
divided = 369.08

So the .45 has 369 FPE

Hmmm, I'm not sure where you learned math but 410 is a bigger number than 369.  You can go into momentum and the like but that is generally used for slide energy and has nothing to do with how hard a bullet 'hits' someone.

As to Hackworth, I AGAIN, provided resourses into his 'account' of the Berreta that showed his errors.  Your choosing to ignore those sources does not negate their validity.



> your statement about 45 being 2mm larger than the 9,



A 9mm is .355 caliber.  A .40/10mm is just that.  A .45 is of course .454 give or take depending on the bullet maker and loading i.e. .454 casull etc.  That is pretty much a 2mm difference between the two.  If you can't see that, well..... 

Bullets DO NOT knock people down, period, end of story.  Maybe in your world they do but not in the real world.  If bullets DO knock people down then answer this question for all of us here reading this...

SSgt Carlos Hathcock USMC, one of the best Marine snipers ever [probably THE best] with 93 confirmed kills and possibly as much as 3 times that many unconfirmed.  Most with the Winschester 70.  He recounts a mission in which he shot a VC with the Win 70 at around 100 yards which is NOTHING as far as his capabilities were concerned.  Direct COM shot with a round that has perhaps FOUR TIMES the 'energy' of a .45 in FPE.  Not only didn't the VC fall down...he broke into a FULL RUN towards Hatcock's position.  Hathcock repeatedly hit him COM and it didn't even SLOW HIM DOWN.  Finally I believe the 7th time a head shot ended the VC's sprint.  Now this is a VC that was probably 130 lbs soaking wet, hit by multiple rifle fire with CONSIDERABLY more 'energy', 'velocity' etc [all the buzz words] than a .45 and it didn't knock him down and it didn't stop him until there was a major CNS hit.  

Why was this small statured individual not 'knock down'?  This mission was witnessed and verified by his spoter Cpl Burke I believe.  So how about it Mr. Knock down energy guy.....

Hugs and kisses


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## MartialArtist (Feb 27, 2003)

Where exactly are your records?  What corps?  What divison?  Your rank?  Have you seen somebody shot in front of you and die?  What conflict was that in?


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## A.R.K. (Feb 27, 2003)

For the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office as well as the South Eastern Public Safety Institute.  It encompasses shootings not only for our agency but for those Counties, municipalities as well as state agencies in West Central Florida.

Rank is Deputy as well as Senior Instructor for Agency and S.E.P.S.I..

Yes, I have seen people shot in front of me during my career.  Unfortunately, I have seen some on them expire.  And I have taken custody of/interviewed more prisoners over 12 years than I can remember.  Thats why I wrote the information down for future reference.

This is why I have dramatically changed my position over the years, because of factual first-hand information and direct research.  I used to be in 'the faster/more energy the better' camp.  Based on first hand knowledge and direct data I can no longer hold to that postition.  

The priorities are function, penetration and accuracy under stress.  It is a simple as that.  Everything else is icing but without the first three everything else is mute.

There is an old saying "It's not shooting SOMETHING that is IMPORTANT, it is shootings SOMETHING IMPORTANT that is IMPORTANT, regardless of caliber, velocity, bullet type etc."

Stay safe.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 28, 2003)

Facts for you ZDW.  (since you refuse to read the link, I just repost the article and highlighted the FACTS that counter your armchair quarterbacking)

link A :  http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9302&archive=true

Soldiers who fought in Afghanistan have some hard-earned opinions about the rifles on which they relied to stay alive. Mostly, they want more firepower.

The standard-issue ammunition compounded the problem, they said: The 5.56 mm round shot  a bullet equivalent to that marketed in the States to shoot small vermin  wasnt effective in stopping al-Qaida and Taliban fighters. Should be a 7.62 mm, so it will drop a man with one shot, wrote one soldier.

Not all soldiers reviews were negative. Pat, a Special Forces soldier who is serving in Afghanistan, wrote the military watchdog group Soldiers for the Truth that the M-4 with optics and the newer hand guards tends to be a pretty good weapon. Guys can change the optics out depending on the mission, and misfeeds dont happen too often with good weapon maintenance.

The adjustable shoulder stock and assault sling, front pistol grip works well with body armor and different sized guys also, the soldier said.

Army Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, project manager for the small arms section of the report, said: Somewhere between the trigger pullers and the maintainers is the ground truth.

Also a factor, he said, are the rounds soldiers use today. 

Soldiers now use the M-855 ball round, a lighter bullet designed during the mid-1980s with a steel penetrator designed to pierce body armor. But soldiers now find themselves shooting at al-Qaida, an enemy that doesnt use body armor.

Some soldiers who fought in Afghanistan said the small, current-issue 5.56 mm rounds just lack needed punch.

The commercially available equivalent to a 5.56 mm round is a .223-caliber  marketed as a vermin round, for killing small game such as rabbits or coyotes, said John Bloodgood, a 19-year Air Force master sergeant with 11 years in tactical units, who also is a private firearms instructor.

More effective are .308 bullets  commonly used for large-game hunting and similar in size to bullets used up through the Korean War, he said.

A .308 bullet has almost twice the frontal area of a .223, he said.

Its not the size but the type of round the militarys using, and shot placement, that determines a bullets stopping capability, said Ken Cooper, director of Tactical Handgun Training, a New York state certified law-enforcement pistol-training facility.

The military uses hardball rounds and the effect is less than if soldiers were shooting expansion rounds, Cooper said. You can penetrate the human body with little to no effect.  (Note: so much for your PENETRATION hype  ) 

Cooper teaches law-enforcement officials to shoot low, for the pelvis. He said the human torso is like a sponge; it easily ]can absorb the impact of small pieces of lead, especially non-expanding jacketed bullets that leave small, clean holes that close quickly. (Note: lack of energy transfer!)

Shots to the pelvis, Cooper said, increase the likelihood of breaking the pelvic bone or severing the femoral artery, resulting in an immobilized attacker at a minimum or one rapidly losing blood at a maximum.

The military teaches people to shoot center mast, in the middle of the body, he said. But if you hit people low, they will go down quickly. Thats what we want, both in civilian law enforcement and in military combat. [/b]


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 28, 2003)

Facts for ZDW episode II.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9316&archive=true

* Soldiers who fought in combat in Afghanistan are saying they want a better pistol. The one they have now, they say, isnt doing the job.

An unclassified U.S. Army Lessons Learned report indicates some soldiers were dissatisfied with the performance of the M-9 9 mm Beretta pistol, the Armys standard-issue sidearm  the same one used by soldiers during operations Anaconda and Mountain Lion in Afghanistan.

Nine soldiers completed surveys for the M-9 pistol. Only one reported firing his pistol in combat to engage targets of opportunity at 15 me-ters. No combat malfunctions were reported.

However, just 63 percent of soldiers surveyed said they felt confident with the M-9 and trusted its reliability. That compared with almost 90 percent who felt the same way about their M-4 rifles, even though they share similar complaints about lack of knock-down power. 

Some soldiers criticized the pistols effectiveness. One said the 9 mm rounds were inaccurate and not powerful enough. Three soldiers indicated they wanted the Army to field a more powerful round.

Veterans whove used this gun have complained to Washington. Retired Col. David Hackworth, an author and vocal critic of military policy, wrote an open letter to Congress in July calling for more reliable weapons to be issued to the military.

We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers, he wrote. What the M-16 was to Vietnam, the Beretta is to Afghanistan. And a soldier with no confidence in his weapon isnt the most motivated fighter.

Hackworth said one Afghanistan veteran wrote him that, I had to pump four rounds into an al-Qaeda who was coming at me before he dropped."

Our issue M-9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable, another wrote to Hackworth. They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range."

Some soldiers are coping by packing heftier .45-caliber pistols, similar to those used by generations of soldiers and Marines since before World War II. Such .45s remain in the U.S. military inventory, but the origin of those used in Afghanistan  military issue or privately owned  remains unclear.

Whats not unclear to several of those using the older weapon is its value. It saved my life, one Army Ranger told Hackworth. I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldnt have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range.

]A Special Forces sergeant in Afghanistan wrote to Hackworth, The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Berettas 9 mm will, too  eventually  but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasnt the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds.

The Army says its too soon to rush to judgment against the pistol. No changes are in store to replace the M-9 for soldiers, but Army Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, the project manager for the weapons reports, said more interviews are on the way to figure out just where the problems lie.

We are taking the opportunity just this past week to review the raw information and re-interview the same units, to include leaders and all the way up through the logistics channels in order to identify any areas that may require support, he said  but added, I dont know of any immediate changes to be implemented.

Nor is everyone convinced the M-9 needs to go. Its the bullet, they say, thats no good.

For instance, in a famous civilian case in the States, an expert testified that the bullets had low lethality.

Ken Cooper, a New York state-certified law-enforcement pistol instructor, testified in the infamous Amadou Diallo shooting by New York City police in 1999. Cooper said police fired 19 9 mm full-metal-jacket bullets  the same ones used by the U.S. military  into Diallo. Of those, Cooper said, just three had any effect on his body; only one of those was fatal.

Controlled expansion rounds would have had a much more pronounced effect and therefore effective result, he said.

Cooper favors the M-9 as a durable weapon  but carries a .45-caliber handgun. He said there are trade-offs; no one bullet will meet every requirement.

It is not the caliber or gun that is primary in effectiveness, he said. The larger the round, the more tearing of blood vessels and dumping of kinetic energy.  (Note: ENERGY TRANSFER!!   DUH!!!! )  The military is restricted to using, in general application, hardball rounds. Even the larger .45 in military ball does little more than the abused 9 mm. A better bullet design combined with a well-trained operator makes a lethal and effective weapons system. *


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## Johnathan Napalm (Feb 28, 2003)

Unlike ZDW, I have never claimed to be an expert.

But I would give more credit to battlefiled reports from people who live and die by the ammo they use, than to some BS theory (hardly a theory; rather it is some internet dude's bogus claim) that violates the basis of science.

The fact is screaming in your face. LMAO. It is all about kinetic energy transfer!  That is what happens when a bullet is fired to impact a target, ie, destroying material by impact. I am screaming my lung out here! What kind of expert (selfclaimed) that does not know this? Yet, he keeps talking about fps!!   Duh!  *sigh*

PS. oh, BTW, 45 has 60% more frontal area than a 9mm!! A lot more than 2mm tells you, buddy boy!    You ought to have known this, if you were a real firearm expert.


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## MartialArtist (Feb 28, 2003)

JN, I just shot off 60 or so rounds of a .440 corbon.  Recoil is amazing, much more than a .50 AE.  I could only make an aimed shot every 2 seconds or so, the kickback is like whoa.  You should try to shoot off some rounds, and it isn't anything like a 9mm or a .45 where one can shoot a substantial number of rounds before getting tired.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 1, 2003)

lol  That is .50 to you.  Would a ported barrel help? The Barrett M82A1 does not kick any worse than the 12 gauge, due to its muzzle brake.  A ported barrel would reduce muzzle flip.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> ....Hmmm, I'm not sure where you learned math but 410 is a bigger number than 369.  You can go into momentum and the like but that is generally used for slide energy and has nothing to do with how hard a bullet 'hits' someone....



More proof of your theoretical BS.  You take mass*velocity, but you are TOTALLY ignorant of the energy transfer factor. You can have all the energy , but the bullet went straight through and the result?  

Here is a hint for you. Why was the Black Talon caused such a furor? Remember the Black Talon? No one survives been shot by one. It shreds everything thing. When you open up the wound, everything inside is bleeding. In the words of a surgeon,"No one survives this."

When you collide one object with another, how the energy is dumped into the other one, is the major factor.  Simple physics. You have to be insane to ignore that. 



> As to Hackworth, I AGAIN, provided resourses into his 'account' of the Berreta that showed his errors.  Your choosing to ignore those sources does not negate their validity.


What sources, other than yourself spreading lies? Oh EXCUSE the heck out of me. The Glock Talk forum where your "Guns&Ammo" crowd hangs out? LMAO! Yeah, great sources of factual info there! Every Dick and Harry are know-it-all and can post trash there.  So, if that forum is your sources of information,  e'nuf said already, dude!

Hackworth is highly respected by the vets and active service members.  His only agenda is to save our service men and women's lives.  It is pretty low for you to smear his integrity without one once of proof!  Outrageous!    You can insult me. I am nobody.  Spreading lies about Col Hackworth is very low.     I invite readers to visit Col. Hackworth's site to check the truth out for themselves.   www.hackworth.com 



> Bullets DO NOT knock people down, period, end of story.  Maybe in your world they do but not in the real world.  If bullets DO knock people down then answer this question for all of us here reading this...



Read the articles I posted previously.  Actually, you know, the kind of ammo that shoot right through you, would probably produce the result you mentioned. THAT IS THE RESULT OF LACK OF ENERGY TRANSFER!  DUH!


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## MartialArtist (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *lol  That is .50 to you.  Would a ported barrel help? The Barrett M82A1 does not kick any worse than the 12 gauge, due to its muzzle brake.  A ported barrel would reduce muzzle flip. *


Um...  I'm talking about a Desert Eagle.  A hunting weapon, not a self-defense weapon.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 1, 2003)

There are ported barrels for pistols too.  The Glock C (Compensated) series is one example.  I am not sure about the availability of any for the DE.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 1, 2003)

Sorry, I misunderstood your statement.

The .440 corbon had a sharper kick than the .50 AE, because it's a .50 loaded into a .44 mag casing.  Kinda like how the .40 S&W has somewhat of a sharper kick than the .45 ACP.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

JN  

If you want to continue believing in 'energy transfer' then by all means do so.  But I will take you to task for spreading your nonsense to others.  It is all and only about function, penetration and accuracy under stress.  

Answer my question.....

What is your real world experience?

If a .45 will knock you down as you have claimed numerous times here, why oh why didn't 6 direct COM rifle hits even faze the VC.  Remember, rifle rounds have vastly more energy than handgun rounds.  So If a .45 will knock someone down....surely a rifle will as well.  Please explain to all of us here why a rifle and even a shotgun will not.  I have supplied examples of both that are easily verifiable.....

Still waiting  

I'm sorry you don't understand the math behind energy transfer/kinetic energy etc.  They are well documented.  And to everyone else here who is not blinded by Guns n Ammo I would suggest the International Wound Ballistics Association and Firearmstactical with Shawn Dodson.  Some of my 'buddies' from Glock talk.  

I am so suprised you haven't drawn out the M & S OSS study or the LOL Straousburg tests yet.  Face it partner, YOU are the armchair commando and are just pissed off that someone is challenging your nonsense.  And the reason I'm slamming you so hard is that your 80's dribble could very well get someone here killed.  Turn off the TV and start reading some PROFESSIONAL journal that are involved with something the rest of us like to call real life.

BTW, there are vastly more people who ARE experts that completely disagree with Hackworth's articles on the 9mm.  I have supplied numerous sources for the reader's here to check out.  You have several questions to answer my friend.

I've seen the white elephant my friend.  The fact that you still believe a handgun bullet will knock you down clearly shows that you don't have a grasp of reality in this area.  I am awaiting your answers to my many questions.....


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> ...If you want to continue believing in 'energy transfer' then by all means do so.  But I will take you to task for spreading your nonsense to others.  It is all and only about function, penetration and accuracy under stress.
> 
> Answer my question.....
> ...



I've seen the white elephant my friend.  The fact that you still believe a handgun bullet will knock you down clearly shows that you don't have a grasp of reality in this area.  I am awaiting your answers to my many questions.....
[/QUOTE] 

How many times must I educate you on the effect of energy transfer?  

If for some god forsaken reason, you have your own freakish definition for energy transfer, I suggest you get the proper scientific definition.  For some reason, I am running in circle here.  

I am sorry if your reputation or credibility is at stake. You did it to yourself. 

Go learn some facts about kinetic energy and energy transfer. 

What can get people killed is you posting bogus claims about the effectiveness of ammo that flies in the face of real battlefield (and even hunting!! for crying out loud!) result.

You can have deep penetration ammo that is 100% lethal. BUT, if the ammo does NOT cause an instantly incapitating wound, you will end up DEAD by the hands of your target, before he expires from you deep-penetrating shot.  What causes incapitating wound is massive tissue destruction, and that come from maximum energy transfer.  That is what the hollow point, prefrag, and the tumbling effect of AR ammo designs are for. To dump the maximum amount of the kinetic energy of the bullet onto the target and shred as much tissue to create as big a wound channel as possible.  

OK. I have explained enough and repeat enough about this simple fact.   Whatever negative impact on your credibility or reputation, is not any of our concern.  Readers can read through the posts here, follow the links, read those battlefield reports , and decide for themselves.  You have a vested interest in keep calling a tail a leg. I have no agenda nor vested interest. What people believe or don't believe, do or don't do, is no concern mine.  I post the facts . People can check them out themselves.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 1, 2003)

In physics, a bullet will not knock you down.  Unless you can change the laws of physics, you can't knock someone down with a bullet.  However, human physiology and anatomy will make you fall down to the ground from a bullet.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 1, 2003)

JN,



> I post the facts .



No sir, you post your opinion based on reading gun rags and bogus 'battlefield' reports.



> People can check them out themselves



Splendid idea!!!  For once we are in complete agreement.   Interesting that you don't answer any of the questions I posed to you.  Curious as to what you credentials are???

Tell me [and all of us] where we can get these magic bullets that knock people backward...probably through the plate glass window that always happens to be behind them :rofl: 

I'd like to pick up a box or two....

For everyone else serious about self defense with a firearm I stongly urge you to check out ALL of JN's wonderful info and then check out the ones I have posted.  Come to your own informed decision.

Stay safe.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 1, 2003)

Here is an article, read the .45 for a reason...

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/JF03ftr.html

There is good reason why the US military along with many others, used .45 for their sidearm weapon.  Reason?  The perfect combination of power, damage, number of rounds, and recoil.  .357 magnum works in terms of damage it inflicts but stopping a guy right in his tracks?  It suits somebody who needs to hit and run, like expert guerilla troops.  A .44 magnum and larger...  Too much recoil, not to mention the muzzle flash.  9mm, no way.

The most popular pistols for elite groups and active combat groups from what I remember are in no particular order...

H&K Mark 23, USP series
1911 (all brands)
Sig p226

All in .45 (except the sig which is in .357)


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## MartialArtist (Mar 1, 2003)

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=1


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## DAC..florida (Mar 2, 2003)

I work in law enforcement and dispite what any articles or reports say any round fired from a hand gun will not force someone to fly backwards. Fortunately i have never had to shoot anyone myself but i have seen people who have been shot and seen people shot right in front of me. I have never witnessed but have read some reports of people who have watched to many movies and their brains were programed to fall or fly backwards upon being shot, but scientifically NO ROUND FIRED FROM A HANDGUN CAN THROW YOU OR PUSH YOU BACKWARD. Unless you have seen someone get shot you can believe whatever you hear or read but that my friends is the truth.

             DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!




Training hard breeds warriors.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *I work in law enforcement and dispite what any articles or reports say any round fired from a hand gun will not force someone to fly backwards. Fortunately i have never had to shoot anyone myself but i have seen people who have been shot and seen people shot right in front of me. I have never witnessed but have read some reports of people who have watched to many movies and their brains were programed to fall or fly backwards upon being shot, but scientifically NO ROUND FIRED FROM A HANDGUN CAN THROW YOU OR PUSH YOU BACKWARD. Unless you have seen someone get shot you can believe whatever you hear or read but that my friends is the truth.
> 
> DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PROVE THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!
> ...


Not even rubber bullets knock you back, but the rioters will most likely go to the ground for safety or fall because they just did.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 2, 2003)

Thanks for the 2 articles/links, MA.

More real life evidence supporting 45 over 9mm. It is another example of real life result superceding theoretical garbage that the general audience fall for.


The following surmarize my previous points (for other readers who may read this thread).  

Both the military and LEO experience prefer 45 over the 9.  The 9mm is fine. But if your life depends on it, then that shot must count. And a 45 center shot, will do just fine. Proven in real combat.   Not some gelatin test *sigh*.  With the 9mm, you have to double tab or head shot, if you can pull it off.

No one says the 9mm is non-lethal.  But the issue is stooping power. Both the 9 and the 45 are lethal.  But the 45 stops the criminal cold! THe one been shot by your 9, may drop dead, or may live long enough to blow your head off.  You can roll the dice and take your chance.  

To increase the stopping power of the 9, the hollow point, HydraShok, prefrag, etc are invented.  All these designs are to increase the energy dump (transfer) from the bullet to the target, with the intent of causing maximum tissue damage, wound channel.  The Black Talon was (pulled from market) the ultimate shredder. (ZDW does not understand kinetic energy transfer and wound channel effect. That is his own issue. None of my concern. My posts here are for the readers to be informed of the real facts.)

Still, the 9mm lack of stopping power is neither 100% resolved nor assured.  The 45 has no issue with stopping power.  "...After reliability and accuracy comes stopping power, and the .45 ACP cartridge pretty much takes care of this by itself...."  

I invite readers to read the articles I posted and those posted by MA, as well as ZDW's. Just be aware that ZDW Glocktalk forum is just another internet forum where anonymous posters make bogus claims. While the people mentioned in other articles are known authority.

ZDW wants to mislead people by pretending that the stopping power of the 45 is just my personal view. On the contrary, readers who check out those articles about the experiences of soldiers, special forces, and LEO, can see for themselves that the 45 is a battlefield proven man-stopper.  Sadly, ZDW saw fit to mislabel those reports as bogus.   

ZDW is having a hard time defnding his credibility and reputation in other threads, due to his numerous claim of fame. Sadly, to him, every thing is a challenge to his credibility and hence forth credential.  

The argument started with the stopping power of 45 vs the 9.  There are plenty of evidence supporting the 45. None supporting the 9 , except for anonymous posts at the Glocktalk forum. Sadly, ZDW believes that is the most reliable source.

I have expensed more time and effort on this thread.  But the information provided will serve the readers well, if they would choose to explore and read further , rather than just take the words of someone who boasts lofty claim of credential that is questionable, with this being the internet and all.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 2, 2003)

My link provided the review of the Beretta.  Note it said that it's a good training weapon, and a good civilian self-defense weapon, but it's just not reliable enough (in terms of doing its job) to use in the military.  It said that nobody really uses the issue weapon.

Army: Sig P2xx Series
Marines: 1911A1
Navy SEALs: Mark 23


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## DAC..florida (Mar 2, 2003)

Jonathan napalm

I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.


I only offer the truth from the trenches and the local ,state and federal law enfocment officers whom i have talked with and not the gun makers or salesman who write articles making false claims to persuade the buyers to puchase the more pricy larger cal. weapons. 
Please dont think I hate the .45 I just dont care for the recoil and time it takes to fire multiple shots on target.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 3, 2003)

ZDW's profile and credibility have been beaten to death. Go check out what others have already questioned about his profile and claims of qualification, rank, credential etc,  in other thread.


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## GaryM (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Jonathan napalm
> 
> I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.
> ...


  Could it possibly be that the reason for agencys issuing the 9mm is because beancounters made the decision as to what is the most economical. Why didn't the 'double tap' policy (shoot them twice) come into play until the 9mm  became widely used by law enforcement? I have a .45 kimber and a .40 browining highpower and the difference in recoil is negligable. The .40 is 'sharper' but follow up shots are about the same.  If you want light recoil, penetration, and lots of rounds in your magazine then maybe you should consider carrying a .22 .


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## MartialArtist (Mar 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Jonathan napalm
> 
> I dont know where you get your info from but again i must disagree with you. I have been through law a enforcement academy and many law enforcement seminars, you claim that leo prefer the .45 over the 9mm thats a croc... I have yet to see a law enforcement agency actively using a .45 as thier issued side arms. Most agencies issue a .40 as the primary weapon, the F.B.I usually sets the trend in the current weapons for leo(check it out). There are a few local agencies that still use the 9mm but I cant think of any in this area who use a .45 . The agency that I am employed with gives you the choice between thier issued glock 17 9mm or you could buy your own either .40 or .45 and i cant think of anyone that carries a .45. I also hope you at least looked at ZDW's profile before arguing with him on this subject because I did and like myself he also works in law enfocement.
> ...


Law enforcement is DIFFERENT from military.

And law enforcement as in county cops use 9mm, why?  Because they have the advantage of having high-mag rounds.  In LE, there is no 10-round limit so it would be better to take advantage of the more rounds.  Also, most criminals who really can't aim use 9mm because they need 20 bullets for their drive-bys.

You'll see that the people who use guns the most use .45.  How many traffic cops use 9mm?  Almost every one.  Now, what about SWAT?  Or FBI?  There was a survey and most FBI agents prefer Sigs and Glocks, in 10mm or above.  SWAT?  Kimber, Para Ordnance, Sig, H&K, some even use Desert Eagles.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 3, 2003)

One of the most economical guns is the 5/7.  20 rounds, high penetration power, but how come barely anyone uses it?  The caliber is the real reason.  Not only is the 5/7 not widely used, but it's just not powerful enough to have the one-shot kill 99.999% of the time.  A 9mm is a peashooter to a prepared criminal (automatic weapons, kevlar vests, etc.) while great for self-defense.


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## Disco (Mar 3, 2003)

All you guys are crazy (but in a good way). If you really, really, really want to stop them cold, then the only weapon you need is the Bolurus Digital Death Ray Pultonium Modulator - model #148593. Light weight (156 kilos) and easy to reload. Zorn from Transpixler 2 holds the galatic record with a reload in 2.5 bleems without mind you, the use of his third hand.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 3, 2003)

Where can I get one of those?  However, non-firearm, I like the light saber.


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## DAC..florida (Mar 3, 2003)

Gary m
It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm   7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.

Martial artist
Although your point is valid I would like to know how many actual F.B.I. agents or S.W.A.T. team members you have actually trained with and asked these questions, I still feel you are all getting your input from a magazine artical.


Jonathan napalm
I have read and commented on other threads about ZDW's credability, I am not a follower and will not participate in the bashing of someone on this site whom I have not met just because they will not feed people personal info....
ZDW has put some very good info out there for all of us to enjoy and I will not show disrespect to anyone on this site!


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## MartialArtist (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Gary m
> It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm   7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.
> 
> ...


I know of one FBI agent, that's about it, most my experience comes with the military.

But, look at this...  LAPD SWAT adopted custom Kimbers, the local PD here adopted H&K .45's and Sigs and Glocks in at least 10mm, so...


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## MartialArtist (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Gary m
> It is possible that cost could be a major factor but when given the option to carry a .45 .40 or a 9mm   7 out of 10 officers I have talked to still carry a 9mm.
> 
> ...


And again, people who carry 9mm are usually traffic patrol, and the normal, everyday cops.  A 9mm won't cut it in the cut-throat world of organized crime and/or acts of terrorism.  The only 9mm they carry is out of a MP5.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 4, 2003)

@DAC
If you must know, the FBI HRT (Hostage Rescue Team), the US Marshall SOG (Special Operation Group), carry 45. I can go check the counties and PDs, but it would take too much time. 

I find it hilarious that the people carry 9 +P making a fuss about the recoil of the higher caliber while in reality the recoil of the +P load is similar to the regular 40.  lol.  Yet, these people all claim to have "credential" . How sad!

ZDW was making assertion about the need of having great penetration. Such claim is the biggest butt of joke. Everybody in the firearm field knows that the paramount problem is over penetration and lack of EXPANSION.  The issue is kinetic energy transfer. ZDW got it the other way round! GOSH!  He makes all the wrong claim which if people believed, would get them to equip themselves with ammo that over penetrates and lack of stopping power.  That is unforgivable.

Whatever you want to think of him, is fine.  I made no beef about his credibility and reputation, until he kept dragging it out and forced me to address it.  I didn't bash him  other than pointing out what others have questioned his credibility for. 

People like ZDW are dangerous. He mixed some good points with a lot of erroneous ones. If he was totally wrong, then it would be simpler. But people such as him, tend to post apparently convincing but factually bogus information.  

As for the 45, its stopping power is beyond a doubt.  Not that the 9 is useless. Nothing in life is so clear cut. With the right ammo, the 9 is a stone cold killer.  However, it is a question of confidence. If that shot MUST counts, or else, the elite field operators go with the 45.  Why is that?  When the real life result flies in the face of lab test, the lab test is to be discarded.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 4, 2003)

There is a question that is yet to be answer.

For the kind of ammo that would knock you to your a$$, try the 135 g 40 hollow-point at 1300 fps.  If you want proof, locate the first field shooting report.

The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 4, 2003)

> ZDW was making assertion about the need of having great penetration.



Once again you are incorrect my friend.  Re-read my posts.  I continually have said penetration to vital organs.  That is not _great_  penetration that is _adequate_  penatration.  Which in LEO is at least 12 inches.  The lawfull shooter needs penetration to reach vital organs even through limbs and common barriers.  Why someone cannot understand this principle is beyond me honestly.  This is for LEO as well as civilians.





> Everybody in the firearm field knows that the paramount problem is over penetration and lack of EXPANSION. The issue is kinetic energy transfer



Wrong again my friend.  The only people talking about energy transfer are people like Marshall & Sanow whose OSS study has been so shot full of holes [no pun intended] that I almost feel sorry for them.  Guns & Ammo and like gun rags that create _controversy_  where none actually exists to sell their magazine and a few others who have been shown to have ties to ammo companies.  Professional organizations KNOW that 'energy transfer' out of a handgun is a catch-phrase for those that are gullible, no offense but it's true.  They have to have the latest gimmick ammo and the highest velocity.  Doesn't mean zip at hand gun power levels and certainly CAN'T knock a man off his feet.  I have seen 10 lbs watermelons with a vest in front being shot with a 12 gauge with 00 buck at a distance of 10 feet.  The melon was routinely NOT knocked over.  Much less a full grown man.  

Even Joe Zambone knew this and demonstrated it in his 93 video touting his Magsafe ammo.  I KNEW Joe Z [rip] and talked to him often.  An though he touted energy transfer he knew it could not knock a man down.  His Magsafe ammo has more energy transfer then just about ANY conventional ammo and I have it on video taking TWO shots from a .40 agent load [maxxed out hot load] to knock a polaroid camera off the work bench!  





> The 135g/1300 fps combo can be found in the Pro-Load tactical Triton HiVel lines.



This has the exact sectional density of a 115 9mm.  It is 1mm larger and 50 fps SLOWER than say a Cor-bon 115+P and will penetrate to roughly 9-10 inches routinely in geletin as well as people.  This is NOT enough for most situations.  It would do well in a best case senerio where there is an unobstructed frontal torso shot on an average sized man.  Do you want to depend on this?  I do not.

I use a 124+P Gold dot 9mm in my Glock 19 and a 200 +P Gold dot in my .45.  They have the same sectional density and depth of penetration.  They perform ideally out of my barrel lengths and have enough penatration as well as expansion.  They both have similar terminal ballistics, both function well and are accurate.  They are not magic...but no round is.

I KNOW both these rounds in both these calibers do well in actual shootings because it is our agency rounds.  The 9mm has done superbly.  NO angency in our area of the state uses 115/135/185 weight rounds in 9/.40/.45 because they DO NOT have adequate penetration, period.



> I didn't bash him other than pointing out what others have questioned his credibility for.



Nobody on this board that 'bashed' me ever actually checked out my credentials first hand.  They made assumptions, inuendos and issued tirade unfoundedly.  Only one individual did check me out...and is now MY STUDENT    I have offered time and again contacts to verify who I am and what I know.  I have provided resources to individuals and sites that routinely deal with LEO/Gov in this area that verify EVERYTHING I have stated here.

NO offense but you bring things up like 'energy transfer', 'OSS', 'Straousburg tests', 'Temporary cavitation', 'Stopping/knockdown power' and you will be laughed to scorn by these people who ARE experts in this field.  People whom the FBI, LEO, MIlitary consult.

You relegate Glocktalk.com to an 'anonyomous site'.  Funny but again incorrect.  It has over 20,000 members worldwide with some of the most famous people in this field even and including Evan Marshall.  People like Shawn Dodson and members of the IWBA etc.  LEO's and military from all over the world post there.  I have been there almost from it's inception and am routinely called on for my input.  Not because I'm special or great...but because I offer sound, combat proven advise.

I encourage EVERYONE to look at these resourses and the data they contain.  I will point out at every chance fallacies such as energy transfer and OSS and 'goat tests'  

People there are three main basics;

Function

Penetration

Accuracy under stress 

Everything else is a distant fourth!

A .45 is fine...I have one.  But NOT because it will 'knock' you down...that is simply silly.  I have one because I carry two LEO firearms Instructor certs and our agency uses both 9mm and .45 [limited to perhaps 5% of active officers].  This is a 2500 member department.  I feel just as well off with my 9mm and so should everyone else here with what they have be it a 9mm, .380, .25, .45 etc.

Chose your equipment wisely and DON'T rely on gun rags who have a product to sell.

Stay safe.


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## GaryM (Mar 4, 2003)

> [ I feel just as well off with my 9mm and so should everyone else here with what they have be it a 9mm, .380, .25, .45 etc.
> 
> Chose your equipment wisely and DON'T rely on gun rags who have a product to sell.
> 
> Stay safe.  [/B]


 I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock. A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability. So what happened to your penetration argument? Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket? If so I suggest you remove the sights from your rifle. That way it won't hurt quite as bad when the bear shoves it up your a**. Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm. Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots.  Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer. (Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky)


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## MartialArtist (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *There is a question that is yet to be answer.
> 
> For the kind of ammo that would knock you to your a$$, try the 135 g 40 hollow-point at 1300 fps.  If you want proof, locate the first field shooting report.
> ...


It is physically impossible for a bullet to knock you down just due to energy transfer.  Not even .50 cal machine guns can do that.  Again, it's due to the reason that the bullet causes some sort of damage or you instinctively fall or other reasons.  Hypothetically, if the bullet transfered all of its energy to you, and you had armor that can't be pierced, you would not fall down.  The report tests on people's reactions which is they'll most likely go to the ground because they were either shot and were bleeding, or they got hit in a dangerous place that disabled them.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock. A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability. So what happened to your penetration argument? Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket? If so I suggest you remove the sights from your rifle. That way it won't hurt quite as bad when the bear shoves it up your a**. Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm. Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots.  Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer. (Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky) *


I'd go hunt a bear or a lion with a 5.56mm equipped with FMJ ammunition...  If I had a M-16 or a M4 in full automatic.  An experienced hunter carries at least one mag of FMJ rounds (considering this was a big hunt and there were multiple people involved) only because they could aim at certain places (such as certain organs on the animal that will not damage anything to lower the price of the meat, skin, etc.).  After the FMJ bullet goes through, they really just wait.  It really can't move if it hit at the right spot, and if it does, there are people with hollow-points ready.

But that's a good point.  I'm not a hunter, I don't like to kill animals.  But, no person with a brain hunts in anything lower than a .44 magnum.  A .45 ACP round might cut for hunting large game, but hunting is where you need huge magnum rounds.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 4, 2003)

> I have personally seen a .25 NOT penetrate thru a 1/2 inch piece of sheetrock



This is true, however, I also have a report in my files from Las Vegas PD.  About two years ago an off-duty LEO was shot 8 times with a .40 and once with a 9mm.  He not only survived [poor shot placement] but returned fire with his .25 pocket pistol and scored 6 for 6 hits in the chest with fmj loads.  The Bg was DRT, he survived and is back on duty today as far as I know.

Is it what I would consider a viable SD caliber, hmmm...not for me personally.  BUT if for some reason an individual cannot accurately control a larger caliber under stress, then it is a viable caliber.  A small gun is better than no gun.  And as demonstrated it can be effective with proper shot placement.  With a fmj It may very well penatrate a limb or at least have that 'travel' that the .25/.22's are famous for.  Again, it's better thatn nothing for those that don't have a viable alternative.





> A .380 is very underpowered, it's ONLY value is concealability.



Agreed, but again can work if there is no viable alternative.  And with a good hp or fmj it may have the penatration neccessary to hit a vital organ/CNS etc.  Is it perfect...no, but then none of them are.





> Any hunters out there? How would you feel about hunting grizzly bear or lion with a 5.56 mm in full metal jacket?



The same can be said for a 9mm handgun.  But just last summer in Alaska a hunter, unable to get to his long gun, shot and killed a charging grizzly bear with a 9mm handgun with fmj's.  Not the idea choice and certainly not to be recommended.  But penetration and excellent shot placement saved his life.



> Also Zhao, if it just doesn't matter, why do you carry a 'souped up' round in your 9mm



The 124+P Gold dot is not what most would consider souped up, by any stretch.  It is a bonded bullet so as to retain maximum weight after impact with no jacket seperation, thereby promoting penetration.  The +P goes about 50 fps faster than the standard round...not really anything to get exited about.  I would be just as happy with the standard non +P, but I get them for free so why pay for something else.

The +P on the 200 .45 is because a Glock 30 has a 3.75 inch barrel as opposed to a 5 inch which is the industry standard that ballistics are measured by.  With reduced length comes reduced velocity.  The +P gives it a little extra to promote positive expansion out of the shorter barrel while stile keeping adequate penetration.





> Seems like that would defeat the purpose of lighter recoil and quick second shots



In my youth I grew up with magnums.  The recoil of a 124 +P 9mm or a 200+P .45 pales in comparison.  I have handled both accurately under stress which is the benchmark.



> Remember, civilians can't easily acquire 18 round mags anymore, so the larger capacity is not a good answer



There is still a vast supply of hi cap mags available...for a price.  I have hi caps of course for the 9 but the G30 comes standard with 10 rounds.  I feel fine with either.  Anymore than a few shots and your really having a bad day  



> (Besides, anyone who emptys a magazine so fast that he hasn't had time to find cover to change magazines isn't trying to be accurate, they are just pulling the trigger as fast as possible and hoping to get lucky)



Agreed, which is why people [if allowed] need to shoot under stress as much as is saftely allowed.  Big difference between marksmanship shooting and combat shooting..

Take care.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 5, 2003)

Ok. I am done with this argumentative back and forth about whether a bullet can knock you down.  It is getting to the point where lunacy is setting in where people even claim that a 12 gauge blast would not knock you over, or a 50 would leave you standing. Hell, I have seen people got knocked on their *** by the RECOIL of a 12 gauge. 

I gave you the ammo that has field report of knock down power. According to the field report, "the suspect was attempting to stab a police officer.....the 135 g JHP flung him back and to the ground..."  So, I did my share of providing info.  We will let readers judge for themselves.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 5, 2003)

AS for ZDW's profile, ZDW made lots of claims, as a result, lots of questions were raised. ZDW provided his rebuttal. Whether it is any good, I don't know, nor do I really care. Again, readers can judge for themselves.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 5, 2003)

As for the issue of Marshall and Sanow vs Frackler and his IWBA, that is the ongoing Morgue Monster vs Jello Junkies.   Marshall and Sanow based their conclusion of effectiveness on real life field reports.  Frackle has this theory , based on wound paths in 10% formula ballistic gel, that the bullet has to penetrate at least 12 inches, in order for it to be effective in hitting vital organs in human.

ZDW is in the IWBA camp.

Both sides agree on what the best ammo for the 45 are. They just don't agree on what is best for the 9.  Most of the virulent attack has come from the IWBA camp. Yet, we all know that  when the lab gellatin test is not supported by real life result, you ignore real life result at your peril. (Which, unfortunately is what ZDW is advocating.)  I would advise to go with the experience of the real life elite forces.

The problem with the IWBA's theory is, the bullet has to penetrate deep enough and hits vital organs, in order to be effective. That, unfortunately does not reconcile with the real-world result.    The 135g/1300fps 40 JHP will kill you without touching vital organs. It tested 10 inches wound depth in gelatin jelly test, not meeting the IWBA's holy grail of 12 inches requirement. But the coroner's question was "what kind of explosive you put in the bullet that caused such a massive wound?"    Another real-world result that flies in the face of IWBA theory is the 357 Sig.    The 357 sig is basically a 9mm powered by 40 cartridge.  It dropped offenders instantly even when hit in the non-vital areas. 

Dr. Bruce Ragsdake tested that when a bullet passed close to a blood vessel, without actually striking it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the vessel.  

Both lab tests and real-world results, prove that the IWBA's dogma on "penetration to vital organ" is NOT true.  

ZDW's position on hanguns ammo, reflects verbatim the IWBA dogma.

The question is, do you follow the real world experience of the elite military and law enforcement, or do you follow the advice from gellatin lab test and the arming choice of your county deputies? (I am not dissing the deputies. Most are hard working, dedicated loyal public servants. Just that the situations they deal with are not the same as those faced by the elite forces/agents)

The readers can decide what they want to bet their lives on.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 5, 2003)

> Ok. I am done with this argumentative back and forth about whether a bullet can knock you down.



Good, hopefully this means that you now realize that they cannot.



> 12 gauge blast would not knock you over



I've seen test after test.  I've seen people shot with 12g and they were NOT knocked down.  Little hard on your theory don't you think.  Two LEO professionals as well as other knowledgable posters are telling you it is a pschological result not a pshsiological result.  

Even Marshall Evan knows a hand gun bullet CAN'T  knock you down and states so in multiple accounts.  If you still want to believe they can....go right ahead  




> the 135 g JHP flung him back and to the ground



Ahh yea ok  

You STILL have yet to answer why a winschester model 70 in the hands of probably the best sniper in history not only failed to knock down a VC...it failed to even stop his advance with SIX COM shots.  I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this....[and I know several others that would like to hear as well].  Or why it takes 2 shots from a .40 Magsafe Agent load to knock a little polaroid camera off a work bench.....



> AS for ZDW's profile, ZDW made lots of claims, as a result, lots of questions were raised. ZDW provided his rebuttal. Whether it is any good, I don't know, nor do I really care.



Everyone of which has been backed up.  And if you don't care...why do you keep bringing it up?



> Marshall and Sanow based their conclusion of effectiveness on real life field reports



I KNEW you would eventually go to the OSS study.  I've been waiting for this with GREAT anticipation :rofl: 

This 'real life field reports' to which you refer are a collection of unverified and in MANY cases discredited reports.  In short, they were falsified to propose a different conclusion.  This has been widely reported by every respectable LEO/military style journal.  The statistics that they use to reach their conclusions have also been debunked.  So has the Strousburg tests btw.  If you lean on these OSS studies you are leaning on something that is a figment of the imagination.  

Dr. Fackler on the other hand is one of the formost experts on the planet in regards to wound ballistics.  Probably why the military and FBI rely so heavily on his input...it works.

Do you really want to see how far this dog hunts?  I am willing to go into indepth discussion on this subject complete with references to the page number if you are really wanting to go the distance.....



> ZDW is in the IWBA camp.



Actually I am in the realistic camp.  Based on two decades of first hand knowledge, interviews, research etc as to what happens in real life.



> The 135g/1300fps 40 JHP will kill you without touching vital organs.



It just can't knock a little camera off a work bench  



> Dr. Bruce Ragsdake tested that when a bullet passed close to a blood vessel, without actually striking it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the vessel.



In rifle calibers _maybe._  Dr. Fackler plainly explains that a handgun bullet is not capable of this.  



> The question is, do you follow the real world experience of the elite military and law enforcement



The answer is yes.  Which is what I've been posting here for quite some time now.  And along the way pointing out fantasy such as M & S's OSS, energy transfer, knock down power etc al.

You have some research to do then we would like to hear your answers to any/all of the questions poised to you that demonstrate your energy transfer theory is incorrect.

Have a nice day my friend.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei _
> *Good, hopefully this means that you now realize that they cannot.
> 
> 
> ...


What?  You've never seen anyone sent back because of the recoil?

A bullet does not knock you down JN, not even a .50.  It will take you down, but not "bring" you down if you know what I mean.  However, a shotgun can knock you down and it can be proven with high school physics.

ZDW, are you telling me you've never seen anyone knocked down by the recoil of a gun?  You've got to be kidding me.  With something like a M3, you need the proper stance or you will be knocked back.  Even with the proper stance, it might bring you back a step if you are limp.  Why do you think heavy machine guns (.50 cal) have a bipod/tripod?  The recoil will make you shoot in the air while sending you back.  The gun being too heavy to be mobile with isn't really the biggest reason.  High-powered sniper rifles also have a bipod.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 5, 2003)

> You've never seen anyone sent back because of the recoil?



I have seen many people with the high power calibers go back because of the recoil.  Mainly because of bad stance.

I have seen and later interviewed a 20 yr old man that tried the suicide-by-cop senerio.  3 well placed 9mm hydro shoks AND a 12g 00 buck COM failed to knock this young man down.  They were in rapid order and this young man [120 lbs soaking wet] had to be physically subdued afterwards.  The rounds just didn't work and they did not knock him down.

Can the BIG high calibers knock you down..perhaps based on several factors.  But again, Sgt, Heathcock shot a VC 6 times COM with the Win 70 with dismal results.  A head shot on the 7th time put him down.

My biggest point to JN and everyone is that a handgun bullet can't knock a person back.  That is hollywood.  As you've said, it can 'bring' you down but not 'take' you down.  I don't want people that are unfamilar in this area to be mislead.

As I said before, you and I are pretty much on the same sheet of music.  The operator is more important than the equipment.

Function.....Penetration.....Accuracy under stress.

Take care.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *I have seen many people with the high power calibers go back because of the recoil.  Mainly because of bad stance.
> 
> I have seen and later interviewed a 20 yr old man that tried the suicide-by-cop senerio.  3 well placed 9mm hydro shoks AND a 12g 00 buck COM failed to knock this young man down.  They were in rapid order and this young man [120 lbs soaking wet] had to be physically subdued afterwards.  The rounds just didn't work and they did not knock him down.
> ...


Do you mean hydra-shock ammunition?


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 7, 2003)

Someone who is 120lb, got blasted with a 12 gauge after taking 3 HydraShok first, and ZDW claimed that the guy still needed to be physically restrained.  You see, tales like this, is the reason people doubt ZDW in the first place.  Anyone who knows anything about firearms, know that within effective range, a blast from a 12 guage will blow a gapping hole in the torso, or chop a limb off.    Even if you are high on drug, a 12 gauge blast will stop you dead cold.   ZDW's tall tales never end.

As for  IWBA, you can't argue with these people. They bought into everything Frackler spills out, even if it flies in the face of reality.  IWBA followers' dogmatic personal attack on Marshall and Sanow is legendary.

IWBA preaches the mandatory 12 inch penetration, and the blind assertion that only when vital organs are hit, would the bullet be effective.  There are overwhelming tests and real world result to contradict those theories.  

1. Dr. Bruce Ragsdale (Armed Forces Institute of Pathology) embedded pig aortas in Frackler gelatin and shot the Illionois State Police load (115g +p+ 9mm).  The result showed that just by passing close to the aorta, without actually hitting it, the stretch cavity was sufficient to tear the aorta.   Yet, the IWBA followers refuse to accept this fact.  How can any reasonable person closes his eyes and insists this was not happening?   

2. There are 2 rounds, designed to penetrate only 9-11 inches, short of Frackler's magic 12 inches.  The 123g, 357 Magnum hollow-points @ 1400 fps and the famed ISP load, 115g, +p+ hollow points @1300 fps.  The Indianapolis PD used the 357 Magnum in 220 shootings. There was never an effective return fire from a felon hit with one of these in the torso.  The Kentucky State Police had the same experience with this 357 magnum.  The 115 g Illinois State Police JHP +P+ @1300 is the best man-stopper in the 9mm , b/c it opens up large volume in wound cavity. The US Border Patrol and the Secret Service found the same in extensive real-world  experience.  Yet, both these 2 rounds are  considered inadequte by Fracker's mandatory 12 inches penetration.

3. The 135 g, 40 JHP @1300, opens a 10 inch wound deep, well short of Frakler's magic 12 again. Yet, if you got shot with one of these, the coroner's office would like know if explosive was put in the bullet. This is in actual case files. Yet, ZDW saw fit to dismiss it offhand. (His words,"It just can't knock a little camera off a work bench.."   hmmmm..... Wanna bet your life on it?)

4. The 357 Sig, a 40 cartridge necked down to take a 9mm bullet. This round has proven to drop felons instantly even when hit in the non-vital areas like the abdomen.  When Cops hear the IWBA diehards rail against this round for lack of penetration, they just roll their eyes and continue to carry their 357 Sigs.

In short, ZDW being the typical IWBA follower, is reciting what ever Frackler spills out.  Yet, the real-world results involving hundreds and hundreds cases, in different PDs, Counties, and State Police, prove that IWBA and Frackler's skewed bias for penetration, is half baked. Yet, IWBA followers are like those conspiracy nuts. They dimiss every one of those real shooting as fake.   Way to go!  

WHEN WE IGNORE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE REAL WORLD, WE DO SO AT OUR PERIL.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 7, 2003)

> Anyone who knows anything about firearms, know that within effective range, a blast from a 12 guage will blow a gapping hole in the torso, or chop a limb off.



First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.

Second...you watch to much TV.

Third...this is a documented police shooting from Clearwater PD in Florida.  It is public record and anyone can inquire about it.




> In short, ZDW being the typical IWBA follower,



No, but I know common sense and reality based investigations from military and LE experts in this country.  Dr. Fackler and I disagree on a couple of points however, he has the credentials and documentation to back up his view point.  Whereas M & S have been shown to be less than forthcoming with where their 'evidence' came from.  I highly suspect, as do others in this field that it came from the same place the Strausburg goat test came from....fantasy land.  

If you wish to bet your life on ammunition that is proven to underpenetrate in real people in hopes that is going to throw them backwards like in the movies....well, it's your life.

Hope you never have to find out how wrong you are my friend.


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## arnisador (Mar 7, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## A.R.K. (Mar 7, 2003)

:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.
> 
> Second...you watch to much TV.
> ...


So you're saying a 12-guage can't knock you back?  Excuse me?  Are you crazy?  A bullet won't knock you back in terms of physics, but a 12-guage will.  Like I said, totally different comparing a bullet vs. some good old shot.  A M3 will knock a 300 pound man back.  People test M3's all the time, it's a favorite among SWAT, FBI, and counter-terrorist forces like the Delta Force and certain Navy SEAL groups.  There are tests done where they had a M3 shoot different things, and it knocked a 500 pound dummy with a fairly strong base, right on his back.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 7, 2003)

What I am saying is that the perception of what a shotgun is capable of comes maily from the movies.  Just like when Mel Gibson got shot with the 12g in Lethal Weapon and flys [in slow mo] through the window behind him.  That doesn't happen.  I believe what I see in real life.  A signal 20 young man a few years ago took 3 rounds and 1 shot of 00 buck and he was not knocked down.  He continued to fight.  What can I tell you partner, it's not a perfect world.  

I can't go along with the crowd and say a 12g will knock you down...when I have seen it not knock someone down.  And he was a buck twenty or so.  I've seen it not knock down a 10 watermelon with a vest on in a demonstration.  I've seen someone take several rounds in a level III flak jacket from a full auto rifle and they stood on one leg, crane style, to demonstrate they would not be knocked down.  I have the video in my library.  I don't remember the caliber of hand.  And as I've said, a Win 70 can pack a bit of a punch, yet Hathcock's account of a VC taking 6 rounds COM and he still kept coming.  What can I tell you partner.  For me seeing is believing.

I used to believe _exactly_  like Johnathan.  I wanted all the velocity I could get in a round.  If I had one that went 1300 fps I wanted one that went 1350.  That was quite some time ago.  I know know three definate things;  Function, penetration and accuracy under stress.  Everything else is window dressing and things for gun mags.  Everything else doesn't matter if the first three are not met.  

I don't expect or look for a round to knock someone down whatever the caliber, whatever the platform.  I look to hit COM as accurately and as quickly and with as many rounds as is needed to incapacitate the threat.

And I hope NONE of us is ever in this postition regardless of our view point.  Stay safe.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *What I am saying is that the perception of what a shotgun is capable of comes maily from the movies.  Just like when Mel Gibson got shot with the 12g in Lethal Weapon and flys [in slow mo] through the window behind him.  That doesn't happen.  I believe what I see in real life.  A signal 20 young man a few years ago took 3 rounds and 1 shot of 00 buck and he was not knocked down.  He continued to fight.  What can I tell you partner, it's not a perfect world.
> 
> I can't go along with the crowd and say a 12g will knock you down...when I have seen it not knock someone down.  And he was a buck twenty or so.  I've seen it not knock down a 10 watermelon with a vest on in a demonstration.  I've seen someone take several rounds in a level III flak jacket from a full auto rifle and they stood on one leg, crane style, to demonstrate they would not be knocked down.  I have the video in my library.  I don't remember the caliber of hand.  And as I've said, a Win 70 can pack a bit of a punch, yet Hathcock's account of a VC taking 6 rounds COM and he still kept coming.  What can I tell you partner.  For me seeing is believing.
> ...


That's bullcrap.  Reasons?

Shotguns are heavily based on distance.  At even 10 meters away, a M3 will go right through anything.  Any shotgun can take a head off at a close distance.

A full-auto rifle that can't penetrate a class III flak jacket?  Sorry, I doubt it was probably a very old, obsolete rifle that "goes full auto".  Even a BAR from WWII will go through almost any flak jacket, not to mention a 5.56 out of a M16 or a 7.62 out of an AK.  An AK goes penetrates most metals given they aren't 5 feet thick and very dense.  And, if the bullet does not penetrate a vest, then most of the energy is transferred to the person.  If the guy wasn't wearing any armor, and the bullet goes through him, then yeah, he will still be standing, just with holes in his body.  But if the bullet stops completely, then there is more energy transfer, and he will not be able to balance himself on one leg.  One story that isn't verifiable at the best and where the person lacks any credentials does not compare to real-life data on just about every law enforcement and military personnel in the world.

Do you even know what a M3 is?  It will knock you back no matter who you are, even at a considerable distance for shotguns.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 7, 2003)

Your getting a bit emotional here.  Thats simply not needed.  I'm sure the flak jacket was lined with those ceramic type plates that will stop a rifle round.  In fact, it was just on 'mail call' a few months ago.  Took at round from an AK-47 and only made a small dent.  Don't remember the caliber there were using in the video, but it did not knock him down.  As for shotguns, believe what you wish to believe.  I provided the department and it's public record.  00 buck is merely 9 .33 caliber pellets.  Sure it can put a hurt'n on you....sometimes.  And sometimes not.



> One story that isn't verifiable at the best and where the person lacks any credentials



Thats not aimed at me because I've offered contact numbers for verification of my credentials.

Some people might be taken down by caliber X whereas some others are not.  In the same video a man was hit by the bolt on his .50 cal blowing backwards.  It perferated his bowels and had more _energy transfer_  than any round due to it's weight, size and velocity.  Yet not only was the man not knocked down, he remained conscious until help arrived.  I _think_  the video was 'Stopping power- the myth' or something similar.  If your interested I'll check.  If it's still in production I'll find out where you can order it.   If not I'll make you a copy and send it to you.  

Either way, I KNOW people shot with a 12g with 00 buck and they were not knocked down.  Hatchcock's account was verified by Cpl Burke as I've said.  The account is in Marine Sniper his life story.

I don't know what else to tell you.  Believe as you wish.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Your getting a bit emotional here.  Thats simply not needed.  I'm sure the flak jacket was lined with those ceramic type plates that will stop a rifle round.  In fact, it was just on 'mail call' a few months ago.  Took at round from an AK-47 and only made a small dent.  Don't remember the caliber there were using in the video, but it did not knock him down.  As for shotguns, believe what you wish to believe.  I provided the department and it's public record.  00 buck is merely 9 .33 caliber pellets.  Sure it can put a hurt'n on you....sometimes.  And sometimes not.
> 
> 
> ...


So...  When someone pulls the trigger of a powerful shotty like the M3, you're saying the person will not go down...  Unless kryptonite is one of your weaknesses, I can not see anyone who've been shot with a M3 to "continue" as you so called it.  I have to disagree with you, you presented no information other than vague stories and don't even cite all the facts.  It's like the cop who hated M1911's and imitations because it went off in his holster when it was cocked and locked, but the cop had no hospital reports nor would not give the name of his gun (as in what brand as in Colt, Kimber, etc.) nor what holster he used.

What are you trying to say?  If it penetrated the guy's bowels, then there would be little energy transfer because the energy goes right through the person so I don't know what you're trying to say.  A buck is merely 9 .33 pellets.  This goes along the same lines of you trying to say there was only a 1mm difference between the pistol calibers.  9 .33 pellet, at point blank range to 5 meters...  They will all hit you, and if it's something like a M3, it will blow you back.  I don't know why you're trying to refute this, but your only "evidence" seems to be a freak accident.  A person can survive a gun to the head, but how many do survive a bullet to the head?  Under 25 people I guess, in the entire history of firearms...  And most were in the olden days, with muskets and with barnabuses.


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## Shinzu (Mar 8, 2003)

anyone can pull a trigger, but it takes skill to weild a weapon... lets get back to the real subject at hand.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> *anyone can pull a trigger, but it takes skill to weild a weapon... lets get back to the real subject at hand. *


So wielding a pistol takes no skill?  Come on, most people don't even know how to reload and cock a pistol like the M1911, nonetheless more "complicated" pistols like Berettas that have tons of things you have to work (which is IMO a waste of time) in order to fire.  Aiming is more difficult than you think when starting out, and you'll fumble over everything.  You'll fumble over how to get the gun out of the holster, you'll fumble doing a regular draw where you just work the safety, you'll fumble the Israeli draw, your stance will make it so you can't shoot effectively.  Contraty to people's opinions, shooting a gun isn't as easy as you think.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.
> 
> Second...you watch to much TV.
> ...



More examples of you making baseless statements. You should stop pretending that everyone else gets their information the same way you do, ie Gunz &Ammo and TV.  

In this thread alone, you have made an endless list of baseless statements that fly in the face of facts and reality.

I have rebutted your baseless assertion with real world facts. The readers can decide for themselves.

No need to be concerned about my safety when it comes to ammo choice.   The ammo I have mentioned have the best proven real world records, not some jelly gelatin tested half bake theory that flies in the face of real world result.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 8, 2003)

If the story of the 120 lb guy surviving a 12 gauge blast is true, there are details about the case you are hiding from the readers.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 8, 2003)

I find it hilarious for someone to accuse MA of getting emotional. lol. He would be the last guy here to get emotional. No need to take my words for it. Just read the way he posts.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 8, 2003)

Here is a theoritical article written by someone who has never used a M1911 or a Beretta in his life but makes some good points

http://usgi1911.tripod.com/m1911m9/

But again, his views are in theory and on paper.  He has no physics to back his statements up.  It's from the stand-point of a guy who has never shot a gun in his life.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 8, 2003)

Here is an article written by someone who actually shot them but never really used it during wartime


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## MartialArtist (Mar 9, 2003)

nv, forgot the link above


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## A.R.K. (Mar 10, 2003)

Both of you [MA & JN] continue to say I've provided no resourses.  Seems to me that firearmstactical.com, IWBA, glocktalk.com, Shawn Dodson, Clearwater PD, Las Vegas PD etc are resourses to check out at your pleasure.  We have established that a handgun bullet will not knock you down.  

As to a shotgun, Clearwater PD has one case that I am personally aware/involved/investigted in which it did not knock a suspect down.  Watermelons in vest demonstrations are not knocked over, neither are cameras with a hot .40.  This is fact.  You are welcome to disagree if you like.

MA, I don't believe I've ever commented on an M3.  JN, if you want to continue sarcasm then by all means do so.  But several people here, including professionals disagree with your 'knock down' assesment.

And again, I hope you, me and everyone else here never finds themselves in a situation where they need to use a firearm.

Stay safe.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 10, 2003)

Seems like when the 40 has a 96% success rate of "one shot stop ", and all you have been doing is pointing out the 4% exceptional cases AND purposefully turning a blind eye to the other 96% of the cases that goes against your particular favourite theory.   Whatever you are trying to prove, you are not helping yourself there by this kind of distortion and manipulation of the facts.

As I have mentioned earlier, no need for you to ever worry about the ammo I select.  Real world results speak louder than gelatin jelly tests.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 10, 2003)

Some of the sources like the IWBA give only physics to back up their statements, and yes, they are right.  The guy is obviously pretty good at physics.  But I believe he failed human anatomy/physiology.

Glock Talk is an internet board, and many shoot for sport (matches, etc.) and with some with average experience.  The PD's use 9mm because they need the 18+1 rounds.  Again, the officers that do everyday things to keep the town or city safe use 9mm.  However, the ones that get down and dirty against very experienced criminals, terrorists, enemies in battle...  They prefer the .45


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## A.R.K. (Mar 11, 2003)

JN,



> Seems like when the 40 has a 96% success rate of "one shot stop ",



With respect, I have to disagree with OSS statistics.  They are not based on reality.  The employ data that at least in part has been publically discredited by the very source represented and is based on arbitrary criteria.

First,  M & S's OSS statistics have been debunked based on their data base for nearly a decade in professional journals.  In several cases, the source of their _alleged_  shootings be it a department or individual have come forth and stated that either the incident *never*  happened or it happened in an entirely different manner that was reported by M & S.  This is not in dispute and has been reported numerous times in professional journals.  M & S's response has been to sequestor their data base or ignore the charges altogether.  This is intellectual dishonety to use statistics that were either created or altered to portray a preconcieved idea.

Second, their OSS criteria is unrealistic at best.  In order to be included in their _data base_  the shot *must*  have been an unobstructed torso shot.  I would offer a loose percentage of 70% of police/citizen shootings are through outstretched limbs or common barriers such as doors, walls, windshields etc.  To represent only unobstructed shots is to taint the results towards rounds that would normally under-penatrate in living tissue.  In addition to this, they view an individual who falls down within 10 feet of point of shooting as a stop without regards to weapon used by the BG or incapacitation.  For example, the situation I used earlier in which the Bg was shot in the leg, breaking the femur and fell down.  Going soley on their arbitrary guidline of 'stops' this could be counted as a stop.  But *only*  because his weapon was an edged weapon and his victim was out of range when he fell down.  Had this been a firearm he would still have been capable of returning fire.  So it is only a _stop_  if the situation permits and can change from situation to situation.  It is arbitrary.  

So we have a data base that only represents a small fraction of shootings in individual calibers, a data base that has questionable content of which some has been proven faulty and a shooting guidline that does not address common shooting obstacles or distinguish between incapacitation and continued threat capabilities.  

I do not say this to embarras you Jonathan, I too once  felt their data was  _strret proven results._   However, as the years went by and new information surfaced I saw the faulty assumptions on which their _definitive study_  was based.  

Jonathan, you spoke of the 135 grain .40 S & W round.  Because of it's sectional density it can be counted on to average perhaps 10 inches of penetration.  In a perfect, unobstructed torso shot on an average male that might be enough penetration to reach a vital or CNS.  But it is not a perfect world and one should not count on a best case senerio.  One should hope for a best case but prepare for a worst case senerio such as oblique angle, cross torso, outstretched limbs and common barriers.  

The 124+P Gold dot 9mm routinely has around 15 inches of penetration and has an excellent record of barrier penetration and adequate tissue penetration.  We have had through and through shots *but*  the rounds were usually recovered feet away, not down the street as some unreliable gun rags would have you believe.  



> As I have mentioned earlier, no need for you to ever worry about the ammo I select. Real world results speak louder than gelatin jelly tests.



I think I am more concerned about your safety than you are mine.  I am not talking about jello tests.  If the lab results back up real life that is fine.  But the OSS does not touch on _real life_  either.  If it did it would have to comprise all shootings in a particular caliber/weigh/bullet type and then assess the results.  This of course has not, and could not happen due to the tremendously difficult nature of the work load.  The OSS is reletively small in comparision to the overall number of shootings.  It has been proven that at least some of the data base was created as well as altered.  I know that the 9mm by several manufacturers has done as well as can be expected from a handgun.  Same with the .45 and the others as well.  I no longer trust my life to ammo [regardless of caliber] that under penatrates or is the expensive exotic type that also underpenetrates.  That is my choice.  I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress.

St. Petersburg PD has recently gone to the G22 in .40.  There qualifications in stress fire have dropped dramatically agency wide from when they used the G17 in 9mm.



> Some of the sources like the IWBA give only physics to back up their statements, and yes, they are right. The guy is obviously pretty good at physics. But I believe he failed human anatomy/physiology.



With respect, you say _the guy_ .  Could you be more specific because the IWBA comprises multiple individuals from the military, LE agencies as well as technical entities.



> Glock Talk is an internet board, and many shoot for sport (matches, etc.) and with some with average experience.



Yes, but there are several forums there in which professionals post to each other as well as the public at large.  Including Shawn Dodson, Gabe Suarez, Terry Murdock, Fernandez [one time of Triton cartridge] etc and even occassionally Marshal Evans etc.  Specific forums such as the Caliber forum or Cop talk is a good place to inquire their input.

Good talking with you both.  Stay safe.


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## muayThaiPerson (Mar 11, 2003)

My mouth


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## MartialArtist (Mar 11, 2003)

http://www.sightm1911.com/M1911vsM9.htm

What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm) that's been proven for SMG's and law enforcement, not much else.  The Luger used 9mm parabellum, and it was a very good 9mm, but from all the reports...  Guess what gun wins, Colt or Luger.  Both were well-designed, both were accurate.  But...


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## A.R.K. (Mar 11, 2003)

> What you're trying to argue ZDW is a proven, reliable .45 that was proven for over a century vs. a caliber (9mm



No sir, what I was arguing was first and foremost a handgun is not going to knock you backwards.  Secondly that the 9mm, as does the .45 has a fine tract record....for a handgun.  Thirdly that items such as energy transfer and stopping power are unrealistic buzz words used in gun rags.  And Lastly that M & S and the OSS are questionable and based on faulty assumptions.

I have both the 9mm and the .45 and I feel comfortable with either.  I do not feel that the .45 is vastly superior over the 9mm.  Same with the other service calibers.  I don't consider the OSS study as valid for many reasons, some of which I have already posted.

And once again I state that the priority considerations are Function, Penetration and accuarcy under stress.  Take care.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 11, 2003)

No, what you're saying was that the 9mm is superior to the 45 in general.  One of the things you said was that it was faster, then you said the caliber difference was minimal, and so on.

Faulty assumptions?  The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results.  You want real-world results?  You have over a century of information from the primary sources of WWI to the war in Afghanistan.  Remember, they had to double tap with a 9mm, and double tapping isn't great.  And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind.  A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that.  Might as well bring an airsoft gun.

There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm.  Even though the Beretta is of pretty good design, it doesn't cut it.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *JN,
> 
> With respect, I have to disagree with OSS statistics.  They are not based on reality.  The employ data that at least in part has been publically discredited by the very source represented and is based on arbitrary criteria.
> ...


* 

First of all, no need to deny your intend.  You have tried repeatedly to embarrass me, but, due to your failure to adhere to the facts, your attempts were futile.  It does not bother me when people attack me, as long as they have the guts to own up to it.  This is the internet. I don't take things here personally.   

Secondly, it is you who constantly bring up the OSS.  I only brought it up to expand for the readers the unending feud between M&S and Frackler's IWBA, in which, the majority of the personal attacks coming from the IWBA camp.

Thirdly, you have repeatedly, deliberately mislead the readers by falsely assuming where I get my information.  

I have provided the battlefield reports and police reports from various PDs, counties and state police, NOT from the OSS study you so loved to trash.   In fact, I have not cited any statistics from OSS.   It is only you, who attempted repeatedly to put words in my mouth.

All the battlefield reports about the 45 and the shooting reports from PDs all over the country, have nothing to do with the OSS. They are all from other sources.  All the feedback on the 35 sig, 40 S&W, are from the users.  None has anything to do with M&S or the OSS study.  It pertains to IWBA, b/c this real world result poked holes in IWBA's theory.

It is you, who take the argument here as M&S vs Frackler IWBA.




			Jonathan, you spoke of the 135 grain .40 S & W round.  Because of it's sectional density it can be counted on to average perhaps 10 inches of penetration.  In a perfect, unobstructed torso shot on an average male that might be enough penetration to reach a vital or CNS.  But it is not a perfect world and one should not count on a best case senerio.  One should hope for a best case but prepare for a worst case senerio such as oblique angle, cross torso, outstretched limbs and common barriers.  

The 124+P Gold dot 9mm routinely has around 15 inches of penetration and has an excellent record of barrier penetration and adequate tissue penetration.  We have had through and through shots but  the rounds were usually recovered feet away, not down the street as some unreliable gun rags would have you believe.
		
Click to expand...

This is where your problem is. You cannot accept the reality. The 40 S&W has a 96% one shot stop real world result. The 40 S&W is one of the most successful ammo ever introduced. And your comment is" it can't even knock down a camera light"  

Here is another problem you conveniently ignored.  You have gone out of your way to trash the OSS and M&S, that you forget the fact, both M&S and the IWBA camp AGREE on what the best loads are for all calibers, EXCEPT in the case of the 9mm where the 2 side disagree.

You are too blinded by your IWBA mantra on 12'' penetration and hitting vital organs, that anything else that does not support that is labelled blasphemy.

Do you see me trashing the 124+Gold Dot 9mm? Of course, penetrating (hence trashing) the vital organs, work. Of course, shot placement is paramount. But real life result also proves that shots to non-vital parts work if the wound channel is large enough.  That is why ammo that does not rely on ONLY hitting the vital organs is preferred.




			I think I am more concerned about your safety than you are mine.  I am not talking about jello tests.  If the lab results back up real life that is fine.  But the OSS does not touch on real life  either.  If it did it would have to comprise all shootings in a particular caliber/weigh/bullet type and then assess the results.  This of course has not, and could not happen due to the tremendously difficult nature of the work load.  The OSS is reletively small in comparision to the overall number of shootings.  It has been proven that at least some of the data base was created as well as altered.  I know that the 9mm by several manufacturers has done as well as can be expected from a handgun.  Same with the .45 and the others as well.  I no longer trust my life to ammo [regardless of caliber] that under penatrates or is the expensive exotic type that also underpenetrates.  That is my choice.  I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress.

St. Petersburg PD has recently gone to the G22 in .40.  There qualifications in stress fire have dropped dramatically agency wide from when they used the G17 in 9mm.
		
Click to expand...

Thankyou for your concern. This is the internet. It is not warranted. We are all adult here. No need to patronize.

Again, it isn't about the OSS. It is about PD's reports, which you labelled as "falsified".

"..That is my choice.  I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress....."  And that is why, the elite military and LEO units, all choose the 45!!




			With respect, you say the guy .  Could you be more specific because the IWBA comprises multiple individuals from the military, LE agencies as well as technical entities.
		
Click to expand...

The 120 lb, 20 yr old got shot with 3 HydraShok and a 12 gauge blast.




Yes, but there are several forums there in which professionals post to each other as well as the public at large.  Including Shawn Dodson, Gabe Suarez, Terry Murdock, Fernandez [one time of Triton cartridge] etc and even occassionally Marshal Evans etc.  Specific forums such as the Caliber forum or Cop talk is a good place to inquire their input.

Good talking with you both.  Stay safe.  *[/QUOTE]


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## A.R.K. (Mar 12, 2003)

MA,




> No, what you're saying was that the 9mm is superior to the 45 in general. One of the things you said was that it was faster, then you said the caliber difference was minimal, and so on.



I don't see a problem here.  More rounds, same penetration [given equal sectional density], less recoil, more range, less expense thereby promoting increased training per $.  If you feel that the .45 is vastly superior in terminal performance to the 9mm that is fine.  I would ask you to cite the study or studys that reach this conclusion for us to review.  The fact that   _some_  military units have gone back to the .45 does not prove it's superiority.  And remember, I have a .45 and carry it daily.  I like the .45 very well, I simply do not subscribe to _war stories_  over facts in it's abilities.



> Faulty assumptions? The IWBA is looked down upon by a lot of places because it lacks real-world results.



Where are these places and who are these people?





> And also, against terrorists, most terrorists now wear vests of some kind. A 9mm is like a Super Soaker against that.



So is any handgun caliber without AP ammo.





> There is good reason why most SWAT team members, and NO elite military soldiers carry the 9mm.



Could you please cite your sources for SWAT teams please.  By what nationally reconized survey do you base this statement?  Particuarly since there are still more 9mm sidearms in service at this present time than all other service calibers combined.  Additionally you may need to rethink the elite military angle.  It is not correct.  The Israeli's for example use the Glock 19C throughout it's IDF.  I should know...I've trained with them.  And I know several former SEALS that feel the 9mm is just fine...in fact their motto was '2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT.'

My dear Jonathan  



> First of all, no need to deny your intend.



Never have.



> You have tried repeatedly to embarrass me



I think you have done a fine job of this without my assistance.  Even though MA and I disagee on some issues, we both have repeatedly, as have others, to convince you that a handgun bullet will not knock you down.  Do you still beleive it will???



> It does not bother me when people attack me



Attack you???  I think perhaps you need to reread my original post to you.  It was and still is with respect.  I have tried to educate you, and so have several others.  You being _resistant_  to this does not necesitate and attack on my part.



> I have provided the battlefield reports



That have been debunked....




> The 40 S&W has a 96% one shot stop real world result.



Not in the real world it hasn't.  What is your source for this....of course it is M & S.  They have been discredited, not just by the IWBA but in the professional journals.  Your failure to keep up on this is not my fault.  I pointed out several problems with it that you cannot refute.



> The 40 S&W is one of the most successful ammo ever introduced. And your comment is" it can't even knock down a camera light"



Well when you have it on video tape.... 

I am not going to go with the latest trendy ammo in hopes that it is going to 'knock em down'.  I am going to go with a proven product regardless of the caliber used.  Have you bothered to read Shawn Dodson and others report on the OSS?  You very well may learn something that may save your life one day.  For every 'failure' with a 9mm you show me I can easily show you a 'failure' with your .40/.357sig/.45 etc.  I can also show you spectacular successes with each.  They are all about the same.  If you get a warm fuzzy with a 1mm larger projectile at equals velocity and sectional density as the 9mm...by all means go for it.  Whatever makes YOU happy :rofl: 

Take care gentlemen.  :asian:


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## MartialArtist (Mar 12, 2003)

Same penetration?  At times, but if you're saying a 9mm can penetrate farther than a .45, you're crazy.

A FMJ .45 ACP round rips a hole through the person and can go through walls and end up in a neighbor's house.  There are records of that happening.  A 9mm just lacks the power.  If caliber had nothing to do with power or penetration, why doesn't everyone just use a 9mm?  Why the .50 cal machine guns?  You make no sense.  A .440 corbon has more recoil than the .50, and what's more is that it's a .50 AE with the dynamics of a .44 magnum.  That thing right there can be lethal for over a mile.

Yeah, the 9mm is the most "circulated" because the M9 is issue.  But nobody really uses the issue.  My sources were listed in those weblinks.

Okay, with this statement "2 to the chest and 1 to the head and your DRT", I have to say that I really do have to question whether you are legit or not.  I never was a real expert, but I cited my sources.  You have nothing to back up other than the IWBA and you're "experience" but it's almost impossible to check your sources.  The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head isn't for military combat with a handgun...  It's more of a rifle motto, with the 5.56mm.  A lot of the times, soldiers just don't have the time to aim for a headshot.  The 2 to the chest and 1 to the head for handguns are done to make sure one is dead, not to kill him in the heat of battle.  I'm surprised someone who's so experienced doesn't know that.  Even criminal justice lawyers, many who've never shot a gun in their life, knows this.  Smart criminals who, especially those who used to be ex-military or ex-law enforcement, do this to make sure the person they murdered is actually dead.

Having to double tap and aim for the head is painstaking and a waste of time and ammunition, and time and ammo could mean life or death.  Double tapping, from the reports from JN, said that it was a waste and a nuisance, but much worse, could mean death.  Double tapping, especially double tapping and aiming for the head, gives a good soldier enough time to draw his weapon.  Now, as you said it yourself, what's better...

A) 3 shots from a 9mm to make sure one even goes down
B) 1 shot from a 45 to the torso to bring the man down due to injury

9mms don't have more ammo than a 10-round 1911 mag.  Hell, it can't even hold more ammo than an 8-round mag.

And ZDW, you are confusing two things.

*In the perspective of just pure physics, a bullet will not knock you down.  However, shooting a person is different from shooting an inanimate object.  Physiology and anatomy have to be taken into account, and a bullet, not due to its dynamics but to what damage it causes, brings the person down.*

Example:

Get a metal dummy with a realistic human base (on two legs).  Shoot the head.  Doesn't go down.
Get a human who weighs just as much and has the same base and shoot the person in the head.  Goes down.  Unless you are Superman, you will go down.

See, that's what I mean by real-world results.  Real-world takes EVERYTHING into account.  You just take physics.  Real-world takes physics, anatomy, etc.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 13, 2003)

> Same penetration? At times, but if you're saying a 9mm can penetrate farther than a .45, you're crazy.



No, I'm quite sane thank you  .  It is simple physics.  Penetration is a function of weight in relation to sectional density.  For example, a 115 9mm has the same sectional density as a 135 .40 or a 185 .45.  All will reach approx. the same penetration depth in tissue.  This is not something to debate my friend    Same for a 147 9mm/180 .40 or 230 .45 [approx].




> A 9mm just lacks the power.



As I've shown before, a 9mm has equal or greater _power aka kinetic energy_  than a .45.  Doesn't make it better or worse.  Kinetic energy is really a mute point in the handgun levels.  And I assure you a hot 9mm Nato fmj will do the same...I can ASSURE or of this.

As for the '2 to the chest and 1 to the head', I think you've really gone overboard here.  As I said, it's a _motto_  just like _one shot, one kill etc._  It is a sound tactic if you come to find your enemy is wearing a vest however.

One round of .45 to the chest *might*  bring down an individual but I can show you a multitude of shootings in which an individual has received several COM shots with a .45 and ran from the scene.  A .45 is nice, I have one...but it's not magic.  It has an overinflated reputation.

*Function.....penetration.....accuracy under stress.* 

Stay safe.  :asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 13, 2003)

my mind, my hands and feet


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## MartialArtist (Mar 13, 2003)

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/ballistics.htm



> I was talking with one of my brothers about some different calibers and velocities. Something we often talk about.  This led to the IPSC's Power Factor, which is simply Bullet Weight in Grains, Times Velocity, Divided by 1,000. This is an easy formula that one can use when comparing loads... but doesn't take into effect Caliber. W x V / 1000= PF. Nice - but not enough. I personally think Caliber is a CRITICAL FACTOR in a defensive bullet.
> 
> I have been thinking about this for a few minutes now, and I think I have another similar formula that will be more accurate when looking at and comparing different loads.
> 
> ...


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## A.R.K. (Mar 13, 2003)

And there you have it  

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Does indeed have much more to say about M & S OSS study being junk science and in much greater detail than I have posted here.

Well done.


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## MartialArtist (Mar 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *And there you have it
> 
> http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
> ...


Stop ping-ponging, that was not what anybody is talking about.  You are the only one claiming one supported OSS studies for some reason.

The articles there go AGAINST you.  .45 over 9mm


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## MartialArtist (Mar 13, 2003)

http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

So, what were you saying?  The .45 penetrates more in general than the 9mm, and stopping power isn't even taken in account.


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## arnisador (Mar 13, 2003)

Perhaps this discussion should be taken to e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Shinzu (Mar 14, 2003)

amen.... lets get back to MA  (no offense)


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## A.R.K. (Mar 14, 2003)

arnisador,

Perhaps this is a good idea.  

MA, you are welcome to PM or email if you would like to continue the discussion.  I think we have taken the same road to the same place but perhaps we haven't met along the way yet.  See ya on the other threads sir   :asian:


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 14, 2003)

Why even bother? ZDW or MRJ or whoever he calls himself this day, will just continue to twist the facts in desperate attempt to support his erroneous positions.  It is just going in circle, repeating the same BS over and over again. May be  he believes that if you repeat some lies often enough, they become truth.  

ZDW is one of those who go to the airport and insist he sees UFOs landing.  

Facts upon facts have been piled onto his forehead. Yet, nothing gets through.  If it wasn't for the benefits of other readers who might read this thread, this has indeed being a tremenduous waste of time.

It is a good thing that since most of the BS he asserted can be  easily rebutted by anyone who knows anything about firearms, little risk of potential harm to the uninformed readers remains in this thread.

The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 14, 2003)

Do you feel better now :rofl: 

By the way...I don't believe in UFO's.  

And I fully agree with the one factual thing you've wrote so far...



> The best advice to the readers is to check out the references, links and articles provided. You can decide for yourself.



Cheerio :ultracool


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 17, 2003)

It is NOT about feeling better. 

It is to prevent uninitiated readers from been mislead into arming themselves with over-penetrating, and under-expanding ammo, that end up getting themselves killed.

Your info is dangerously misleading.

If you were the firearm expert that you want people to believe, you would have known:

1. If people arm themselves with AMMO that require them to get only shots to vital organs, they put themselves in an extremely dangerous situation.   When people encountered danger, or awakened in the middle of the night, their ability to stay cool, calm and then AIM precisely at the criminal's vital organs, is GREATLY compromised.

When they arm themselves with over-penetrating ammo, one shot-stop is compromised.

Therefore, they MUST equip themselves with AMMO that have ONE-SHOT  STOP ability w/o needing to "shoot 2 times into the chest and shoot  1 more at the head".  They wouldn't be able to do that when they are flushed with adrenaline and panic.  

Martial Artist posted that the shotgun is the best choice in those situation.

2.  The 45 has 65% more cross section area than the 9mm. It is very dishonest of you to pretend that the difference is only 2mm and therefore pretend that it is not as effective as the 9mm. The 45 has been proven in battlefields for so many decades. The lethality of the 45 is beyond question.  

3. The FBI SWAT, FBI HRT, the LAPD SWAT  all use the 45. MA listed the military elite that use the 45.  When it is mission critical, the 45 enters the scene.  

4. You posted that a PD adopted the 40 and the qualification went down. An honest man would know that is b/c the 40 is a more powerful round than the 9mm, and hence it requires more practice to be proficient. This flies in the face of your baseless argument that the 40 is only 1 mm larger than the 9mm and "cannot hit a camera light off"  . You have this incredible and shameless ability to post selective information to mislead readers.  You posted that the 45 is only 2 mm larger than the 9mm, knowing that such reasoning is garbage.  The 223 is only 0.003 larger than the 22, yet what a difference!  If you didn't know this, than you are even more worthless than you have presented.  You posted that a 20 yr old 120 lb guy still needed to be phyisically restrained after been shot with 3 Hydrashok and a 12 gauge and tried to present that as your proof that the 12 gauge was not lethal. Obviously if that story is even true at all, they must be mitigating circumstances that contribute to his surving those shots.  Anyone who know anything about firearm would know that , a center blast from a 12 gauge within effective range, is DEADLY. If hit in the chest, a gapping wound. IF the limb, you lost that limb.  It is totaly dishonest of you to post that story to mislead the readers into the false belief that taking a 12 gauge blast is not going to kill you.   Your dishonesty went further when you posted that someone survived a blowblack of the bolt from a 50 and argued that the 50 is not deadly.   The list goes on.  Examples and examples of intellectual dishonesty by selectively posting information with the intend that the readers would reach the erroneous conclusion.

I have a strong sense of kinship with RSK. WE both dislike fraud with a passion.

If you simply hold on to erroneous views, that is understandable. But to deliberately posting selective information, and to deliberately misinterpret facts, to mislead the readers into believing something that is false, is the conduct of a crook.


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## arnisador (Mar 17, 2003)

This thread is now locked. Please take this discussion to e-mail. It is generating more heat than light at this point.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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