# Picadilly Car Bombs



## michaeledward (Jun 29, 2007)

Today, all the alerts were sounding a full volume. Two 'car bombs' were discovered in a busy section of London. 

The bomb in question is apparently ..... gasoline. And, nails. 


Since the time Richard Reid tried to set off a 'Shoe Bomb' on a transatlantic flight, every passenger on every domestic flight has had to remove his or her footwear when passing through the X-Ray / Metal Detector at the airport. 

Since the time the British 'Chemists' plotted to chemically combine liquids 
in an airplane lavatory on transatlantic flights to create an explosive in flight, air travelers have not been allowed to carry on more than 3 ounces of any single liquid or gel, and all must fit into a one quart, clear zip bag. 

What will possibly be the result of a gasoline and nail bomb? 

Perhaps we can get CAFE standards for automobiles to drive 45 miles per gallon of distillate of petroleum, and a restriction on the size of the fuel take to one gallon. 45 miles per tank!

Perhaps, general contractors will be restricted to how many boxes of nails they can buy at any one time, and their commercial vehicles will be required to have reinforced side walls, heavy duty locks, and GPS transmitting devices so that the Homeland Security Department can know, at all times, where every truck filled with nails is located.

Listening to the reports today ... some supposedly very important people are claiming this is 'clearly an indication of desire by al Qaeda'.  Gasoline is not an explosive! It is incindiary, for petes' sake. It makes a pretty fireball, but it ain't that big a deal. 

And if al Qaeda's best thinking is gasoline and nails ... we really can stop worrying about 'international terrorism'. 


This better be a rich man's practical joke. This is not news. It is just a sad call for attention. 


P.S. - I bet they *don't* start rationing gasoline.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

You sound as if you think we were making a fuss about nothing. In fact inside the vehicles were propane gas bottles, ever seen one of them explode in heat? The vehicles would have exploded at the time crowds were leaving the clubs and hundreds yep hundreds would have been hit by the nails. Not quite so amusing really.

We've had another attempt today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6257194.stm

Never a good place to try stuff like that though, Glaswegians are known for their ferocity.


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 30, 2007)

How the Brits react, really isn't quite so much about what I was referencing, but, I do think the correct reaction is ridicule and laughter. 

In this country, a vehicle with 50 gallons of petrol in it is called (as another web site put it), a Cadillac Escalade. You state that the vehicles "would have exploded". I would say, *if* the vehicles had exploded. 

Really, the idea is laughable; turning a car into a moltov cocktail. Even with the Glasgow incident ~ which I saw several hours earlier on the CNN site, ~ an act of vandalism, yes - an act of stupidity, yes - an act of terrorism, oh ********. 

If that is the best the British terrorists can come up with, stop fretting. Such incompetence deserves the treatment by Monty Python, rather than Scotland Yard.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

Well pal, I'm really glad you're amused because we sure as hell aren't.

I think you are misunderstanding the the word gas. The vehicles were not full of fuel which wouldn't have exploded at least only the fuel tank would have. The cars were full of propane gas tanks not 50 galls of petrol/diesel (gasoline to you) it was *50 gallons of propane gas.*http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/safety/exgas.htm

Please note first sentence under Hazards... propane is one of the most dangerous gases. Very explosive.


Still think it is worthy of Monty Python?


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Still think it is worthy of Monty Python?


 

Yes. 

Pal. 

It's no wonder your empire was lost.


----------



## jks9199 (Jun 30, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> In this country, a vehicle with 50 gallons of petrol in it is called (as another web site put it), a Cadillac Escalade. You state that the vehicles "would have exploded". I would say, *if* the vehicles had exploded.
> 
> Really, the idea is laughable; turning a car into a moltov cocktail. Even with the Glasgow incident ~ which I saw several hours earlier on the CNN site, ~ an act of vandalism, yes - an act of stupidity, yes - an act of terrorism, oh ********.
> 
> If that is the best the British terrorists can come up with, stop fretting. Such incompetence deserves the treatment by Monty Python, rather than Scotland Yard.


 
What are your qualifications to assess a terrorist plot, especially with no better information than what's in the press?  I've had a certain amount of training in counter-terrorism, and I'm reluctant to make more than a guess based on what's been presented.  

The bottom line here is simple...  Someone, whoever they may be, managed to orchestrate at least two, possibly three, nearly simultaneous attacks.  What I've read and heard suggests that they attempted planned to extend the impact and force of the attack.  

I don't know about you -- but that kind of worries me.  See, we've got LOTS and lots of cars here in the US.  And we pay little attention to where they go, unless they're in the way.  Then we curse at the drivers.  Materials to create improvised explosives are easily available.  (More easily than you really want to know.)  And that's before we get into things like chemical or biological weapons...  

You're right... there's nothing at all worrying in these terror attempts in England.  After all, there's an entire ocean between us and them...


----------



## theletch1 (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez, it's always a shocker to have something like this happen in your own back yard, isn't it?  Timothy McVeigh didn't need a nuke to create the destruction that he created.  The key to terrorism isn't always the number of the dead but the reaction of the living.  It's never laughable to have someone attempting to kill or maim your friends and neighbors.  

MichaelEdward,  While you may believe that anything that doesn't meet a certain standard for destruction is not worth paying attention to others will certainly take it seriously.  The officials of any government and especially the media will do their best to hype a situation like this for the added attention (yeah, this gets the extra attention that terrorists are looking for) to push their own agenda or raise ratings.  Keep in mind that our neighbors across the big pond just had a new PM take office a couple days ago and this may simply be a hastily thrown together and thankflly failed attempt to let the British people know that getting rid of Tony Blair isn't going to change the fact that there are those out there bent on destruction.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2007)

Some years back, Buffalo had a propane explosion happen during a building fire. Several fire fighters were killed, and the building was leveled, with heavy damage to the surrounding ones.

The memorial is 2 blocks from my house.

I don't fault the Brits for their actions at all.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 30, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Karen Cohn
-MT Senior Moderator
*


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2007)

BRG said:
			
		

> BASTARDS.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6257194.stm
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6257606.stm
> 
> ...


http://www.rustaz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15222


This is scary news.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm so pleased we are  keeping one of our Americans cousins amused at least. I thank the other for his concern. Personally of course I find all bombings highly amusing, pieces of bodies flying everywhere, limbs lying in the street, people crying... oh what joy.

This was especially fun wasn't it?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4661059.stm

Monty Pythonish wasn't it?

Sit comfortably at your computer and mock by all means, try to start a Brit v USA flame war by all means. Have yourself a chuckle at the Brits running around scared. How comforting it must be to be so superior. I bow to your knowledge. I've only had over 30 years experience fighting terrorism, been blown up one ( Red Lion pub London in the 70's just after my round), I've seen the pieces left of the Para's after they were blown up in NI, hell, my fiance was blown up there too. I've seen the bodies of the children killed in the Manchester bombs, the bodies coming out of the Underground after the last London bombing. 

I remember too the tears of the British when you lost your Twin Towers, I remember my own. I remember people raising money to send over, not because it was as much needed but as a gesture of solidarity. I remember our Queen speaking for us all when she sent her message of sympathy. Guess we may have lost an Empire but at least we grew up.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 30, 2007)

Personally, I find nothing funny about attempts to take lives.

3 failed attempts, timed when the keys of the government are transfered. Sounds like something bigger than just lone crackpot. I think congratulations are in order, that the damage this time was minimized. Lets hope that this is the worst of it.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

Kacey said:


> *ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
> 
> *Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.*
> 
> ...


 

I apologise now for my last post, I read this after I had posted. I shan't post again on this issue.


----------



## exile (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I apologise now for my last post, I read this after I had posted. I shan't post again on this issue.



Tez, IMO, _you_ for sure have nothing to apologize for. Given the abysmal content that you were responding to, the restraint reflected in your post qualifies you for something like sainthood.


----------



## jdinca (Jun 30, 2007)

Even a 5 gallon propane tank exploding in a crowded area would have killed people. Make that 50 gallons, add gasoline, which puts off flammable vapors at very low temperatures, a big pile of nails and you have a recipe for disaster. After the explosion, the car would have been one big molatov cocktail, not to mention all of the flying shrapnel. 

On the plus side, propane tanks are fitted with relief valves that are supposed to prevent that from happening. Put that tank in an enclosed car though, and all that vented gas and subsequent fire are confined within the vehicle, increasing the temperature of the vessel to the point that the pressure relief valve can no longer handle the quantity of gas being released and the result is going to be an explosion.

Here's just one of the videos I found on YouTube:





 
Anybody should be able to understand what a large bullet Britain dodged on this one.

I'm happy Tez that the terrorists were unable to carry out their plan. Just as happy that the two in Scotland weren't able to get their car inside the terminal.


----------



## Blindside (Jun 30, 2007)

Anyone who doesn't know what a little bit of propane can do go to youtube and search for "propane."  Thankfully these terrorists failed, but that doesn't make the act any less despicable, or any less worrisome.  Quite frankly I'm surprised that anyone can scoff at such an action.

Lamont

Edit: Disabled rep, hmm, wonder why.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 30, 2007)

Thank you everyone! I have only two things to say to MichealEdward now 

1. there are two c's in Piccadilly.

2. wrong attribution of humour,not Monty Python more Basil Fawlty is what it would have been if it were as you said.

During the 'Troubles' the PIRA would phone through bomb warnings without there actually being a bomb in place, they knew the havoc and fear it would cause. When the order came to evacuate the nearby buildings many people were afraid for their lives while they were being led from the nearby clubs, luckily the procedure in place stopped any panic and ensured people were led to safety without there being any injuries. Again the PIRA were known to plant bombs in one place and again in a place they knew people would be evacutated to so there was always the chance the people were being led into danger not away from it. 
Londoners are very stoic about the bombings, they've endured the Germans and the Irish before the latest wave of Muslim terrorism. 

The two would be bombers in Glasgow are lucky though, The Glaswegians are a tough bunch and wouldn't have taken kindly to having their airport damaged! It's from Glasgow that we get the expression Glasgow Kiss for a particularly nasty head butt!


----------



## exile (Jun 30, 2007)

Tez, not to worry.

I'm pretty sure that just about everyone on this board is morally informed enough to come to _exactly_ the right conclusions about any attempt to joke&#8212;at the potential victims' expense&#8212;about turning an automobile into an incendiary bomb.

PS: Blindside, my man, have I told you recently how much I respect your shrewdness of observation? Well, if not... I'm doing so now!


----------



## Mr. E (Jun 30, 2007)

I know there is an election in America next year.

I know the polls show that the majority of Americans still prefer the Republicans over the Democrats when it comes to dealing with the issue of terrorism.

I know that the Democratic candidates have tried to play down terrorism as an election issue in favor of areas where they are strong. One candidate even tried to liken the War on Terror to a bumper sticker slogan.

And I know there are people here that seem to bent on getting Republicans defeated in the next election.

But even so, likening attempts to kill scores, possibly hundreds of people to a comedy program is beyond the pale.

For those of you in America, please understand that there are people *right now* in London who are afraid to go shopping. Every few hours there seems to be another development, another attempt. First one car was found. Before the media even had time to ponder that another one was found. Now it looks like someone has tried to crash into a busy area and blow up scores of innocents just waiting for a plane. People are worried that there may still yet be other plotters that are poised to strike at crowded areas. It may be a few days, maybe weeks before some people are willing to go to crowded shopping  areas.

This type of thing is just sick. Years from now we may blow off some steam by making jokes about it. But making fun of the terror people feel by likening it to Monty Python is just terrible. Please, can people just put aside their politics and have some sympathy for those who *right now* are wondering if there may be other attacks about to happen?


----------



## michaeledward (Jun 30, 2007)

About this issue, I will say the following. 


There is a complete lack of perspective, on this issue, on this board. While real car bombs are killing American Soldiers, British Soldiers, and innocent Iraqis every week in Iraq, this incident should receive little or no coverage. And certainly not the breathless reporting it has been receiving in the news media in American. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4303629.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4678207.stm
http://www.dispatch.co.za/2007/06/29/Foreign/abomb.html

One of the car bombs in England was parked in the middle of the night. Yes, it was in the club district, but to time the explosion with the emptying of the night clubs would require a pretty sophisticated detonation timer. With reports that the bomb was defused by hand, it would seem that the level of sophistication was not high. 

One of the car bombs in England was connected to a tow truck, and towed out of the busy nightclub district, without detonating. The next morning, the tow company, upon seeing reports of the first incident, and recalling a gas smell, called to have it inspected. 

The third incident, was so incompetently carried out, the first reports tell us the only person injured was the driver or passenger of the jeep - who set himself on fire. (The latest report also includes one injured traveller at the airport. I await confirmation).

These were acts of incompetence. Yes, there was bad intent. But, if all actors with bad intent behaved like this, we really would have no worry. 

I will further point out that the billions of dollars the United States and British governments have spent in their global war proved inadequate to the task of discovering and preventing these attacks. An ambulance out on a call to a different location noticed the unusual first car, and reported it. Our "Homeland Security Departments" demonstrated their inadequacies. 

Lastly, my point was, and is, that our 'democratic' governments, each time they were presented with issues of this sort, have over-reacted, and placed restrictions upon the citizens that seem unconnected to the root cause. How will they react, how can they react, when the 'new' weapon (shoes / toothpaste) is the engine of our civilization - petroleum and propane? Perhaps, the ridiculousness of idea of having 1 gallon reservoirs in our automobiles could be paralleled to the ridiculousness of not being able to take shaving cream in our carry one luggage.

Also, our First Amendment Free Press seizes upon incidents like this, and reacts like it is a missing white woman, or Paris Hilton speeding ticket. 


Several random thoughts.

Lamont - my reputation has been disabled almost from the inception of the application. 

Tez3 - Thank you for the correct spelling. I believe that any attempt to compare 911 to these car bombs is beyond silly. I also believe that were I to attempt to analogize these attempts to the 77 attacks would be just as silly. 

Bob - I don't think that I was attempting to be 'funny' in that sense of the word.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 30, 2007)

Okay-you'll hear enough about this in the days to come, and, while I often agree with him, MichaelEdward is waaaay off-base.

First off, I'll point you towards this post.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> and wound up working in commercial nuclear power, earning degrees in mechanical and nuclear engineering, and advanced degrees in nuclear engineering and, more recently, my doctorate in applied physics. I&#8217;m a certified firefighter, HAZMAT technician, avid hunter, ultra-marathon runner and triathlete (though hardly competitive; I&#8217;m just happy to finish.), fourth-generation &#8220;gun nut,&#8221; as well as a *federally certified ordinance and munitions disposal technician. *





The fact is, properly packaged, one gallon of gasoline , which weighs about 7 lbs., has *ten times* the equivalent weight of TNT-by international treaty, TNT is defined as having 1 calorie of energy per gram, while gasoline has roughly 10 calories per gram. What this basically means is that 50 gallons of gasoline, properly packaged, is the equivalent of *3500* lbs. of TNT-almost two tons.

The additional propane, as others have pointed out, is significantly worse.

Add to this the shrapnel, cell phone hookup and runaway driver, and you basically have one of the very same IEDs that are killing troops in Iraq. 
Add the reports of "smoke" (probably propane vapor-_scary_!) in the vehicle, and you have a pretty urgent situation.

Apropos of everything else, the typical procedure for devices-the most common one-is to take the damn thing away from people and blow it up. Or just blow it up. The romantic notion of going in and clipping wires, while part of the training, is just not the usual procedure followed.Of course, in situ detonation and removal were not options in this case, so it had to be disarmed. The tech and his partner who actually had to do this, with what was probably propane vapor all around him, knowing that he'd either save some lives or be *vaporized*, is to be commended.I'd wager that none-or maybe one- of you can even begin to imagine how scary it was for them.


----------



## Kacey (Jun 30, 2007)

Mr. E and Tez - please be assured that there are plenty of Americans who are totally sympathetic to the current concerns of British citizens, very appreciative of the support shown to the US following 9/11, and that the statements of a few on a bulletin board do not generally represent the opinions of the majority.

For myself, I find nothing whatsoever amusing about the recent events in Piccadilly Circus (a place I greatly enjoyed visiting last summer), and am grateful that the car was found and removed before it could explode.  I am absolutely horrified that someone would drive a flaming car into an airport, as happened in Glasgow, and strongly hope that these were isolated incidents, connected by nothing but coincidence, rather than the beginning of a series of similar events.


----------



## jdinca (Jun 30, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Okay-you'll hear enough about this in the days to come, and, while I often agree with him, MichaelEdward is waaaay off-base.
> 
> First off, I'll point you towards this post.
> 
> ...


 
Luv the technical stuff. 

I'm wondering if the atmosphere in the car was above the UEL and that's why it didn't go off.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 30, 2007)

jdinca said:


> Luv the technical stuff.
> 
> I'm wondering if the atmosphere in the car was above the UEL and that's why it didn't go off.


 

Well, if it was, would you have opened the door to do the disarm? Or even wanted to?  (I imagine they did some sort of encapsulation-a tent filled with supressive expanding foam, and did the work in SCBA, but still.....)


----------



## Karatedrifter7 (Jun 30, 2007)

Its interesting Italy has suffered more for tourism through their economy because of 9-11 than Britain has. At least thats what Wikipedia claims.
Although they don't seem to be the subject of wackos as much as GB. I have to tread lightly here, I dont want to offend anyone on this subject so thats all I'll say. 
The thumbs down is to reperesnt my disgust with the bombers.


----------



## Blindside (Jun 30, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> Its interesting Italy has suffered more for tourism through their economy because of 9-11 than Britain has. At least thats what Wikipedia claims.


 
I'm going to assume you meant "terrorism."


----------



## Blindside (Jun 30, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> There is a complete lack of perspective, on this issue, on this board. While real car bombs are killing American Soldiers, British Soldiers, and innocent Iraqis every week in Iraq, this incident should receive little or no coverage. And certainly not the breathless reporting it has been receiving in the news media in American.


 
If that was your intended message, it was certainly lost in your presentation of it.

Lamont


----------



## theletch1 (Jun 30, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> Its interesting Italy has suffered more for tourism through their economy because of 9-11 than Britain has. At least thats what Wikipedia claims.
> Although they don't seem to be the subject of wackos as much as GB. I have to tread lightly here, I dont want to offend anyone on this subject so thats all I'll say.
> The thumbs down is to reperesnt my disgust with the bombers.


It wasn't the loss of tourist dollars that we were discussing.  It was the potential loss of life.  Granted the disruption of travel and daily life was mentioned but that would hardly merit the emotions elicited by the discussion.  I'll agree with your thumbs down on the bombers!


----------



## Karatedrifter7 (Jun 30, 2007)

Well in my defense the Picadilly bombings are actually a loaded question, and that spreads like water. So I dont think I digressed from the subject. It kinda makes me mad to talk about the bombers so,

Respectfully bowing out,
All the best..


----------



## jdinca (Jun 30, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Well, if it was, would you have opened the door to do the disarm? Or even wanted to? (I imagine they did some sort of encapsulation-a tent filled with supressive expanding foam, and did the work in SCBA, but still.....)


 
Actually, I would have been outside the perimeter, preferrably with the engine between me and the car.

If the cell phone was supposed to trigger an ignition device and the atmosphere was too rich, that could explain why it didn't go off. Based on what I've been reading, it sounds more like the terrorists weren't that technically savvy.


----------



## Hand Sword (Jun 30, 2007)

I'm still awaiting Western Countries to start enforcing repatriation and a freeze on immigration.


----------



## theletch1 (Jun 30, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> I'm still awaiting Western Countries to start enforcing repatriation and a freeze on immigration.


Handsword, please please please don't take this wrong....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

OK, I feel better now.  Seriously, though.  I think we'll have a very long wait, at least here in America, before anything anywhere close to that happens.  The immigration debate here is one of the most heated that I've ever seen and doesn't show any sign of cooling off.  I wonder if we might see the repatriation and freeze if we were to have another 9/11 type attack.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Jun 30, 2007)

You see. Some of the extreme lefties have equated the "War on Terrorism" with president Bush. So any refrence to Terrorism and steps taken to prevent it are viewed as part of the evil Bush plot to subjugate the world through fear. Never mind that people really ARE planning to do things like fly planeloads full of innocents into buildings full of innocents. Or bomb subways, cafes etc. You see its all a Bush plot and you Brits are falling for it.

Pathetic.

Dont worry Tez. You Brits, besides a few little spats in the 1700-1800's, have been the best friends a Nation could have. We're with you.


----------



## Hand Sword (Jun 30, 2007)

Honestly, I'm sick of all this crap from these sub humans! If our good and innocent are to suffer, then, there's should suffer with the loss of western lives and priviliges. They aren't rying to fit in, but, rather take over. This is a serious situation that the WORLD faces, inspite of the ligth views of some. If they are extreme as they are, I say the hell with PC and all that. Repatriate, Isolate, then eliminate!


----------



## bydand (Jun 30, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> About this issue, I will say the following.
> 
> 
> There is a complete lack of perspective, on this issue, on this board. While real car bombs are killing American Soldiers, British Soldiers, and innocent Iraqis every week in Iraq, this incident should receive little or no coverage. And certainly not the breathless reporting it has been receiving in the news media in American.



Complete lack of perspective... How ironic you should use that phrase just before the drivel you went on to post.  Lets see what your reaction would have been if that same exact package was parked outside your place of work or home.  

I have been waiting a LONG time to use this smiley. :321:
Probably get another warning for it, but I'll take one to express that thought.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm assuming that when it is reported that a mobile phone was the trigger that it was not simply lying there on the seat waiting for someone to dial it's number?

If it was then I guess our would-be terrorists don't watch Mythbusters.

I know this is an emotive issue, chaps, about people who have taken extreme actions but I think that perhaps we should beware of making extreme _statements_, especially those with a racial component, otherwise we may find that this thread gets itself locked.

We've had a lot of experience in this country dealing with terrorists and the effects of terror attacks, as *Tez* can well attest.  

If it wasn't for the Gossip Machine, sorry News Service, fanning the fear every fifteen minutes, I think you'd find the reaction of people to be far more considered and less dramatically 'newsworthy' ... people afraid to go shopping indeed. 

"Pshaw!"


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 1, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

SECOND AND FINAL MODERATOR WARNING*

*Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy **http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486**. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.*

*-Brian R. VanCise*
*-MartialTalk Super Moderator-*


----------



## jdinca (Jul 1, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm assuming that when it is reported that a mobile phone was the trigger that it was not simply lying there on the seat waiting for someone to dial it's number?
> 
> If it was then I guess our would-be terrorists don't watch Mythbusters.


 
I doubt that was the case but you need to right amount of oxygen to initiate combustion. Lacking that, it just isn't going to go. That's why it's possible to put out a cigarette in a container of gasoline, not enough oxygen...but I wouldn't advise doing this as an experiment.

This being the cause of the failure is pure speculation on my part.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2007)

Just back from work, I've been chatting to the bomb disposal lads at lunch who were at Glasgow (in the nicest way I have to say they are all as mad as chocolate frogs) they were saying that this type of car bomb was first used in the USA in limos but it was also foiled there. I'm sure someone can find it online somewhere, New York perhaps?

There is a lot of givens in a situation like this, of course the media are going to make the most of it, that's their job, of course the governments are going to be all serious and issue us warnings to be vigilant, that's _their _job. Our job? to carry on normally! It's always been the Brits biggest virtue or annoyance depending on which side you are on, that they stubbornly and single mindedly listen to everything, take everything in and then carry on doing whatever they were doing anyway! There is a very big streak of contrariness in the British psyche that makes us dig our heels in and act even more normally than usual when these attacks etc happen. Hell we are probably the only people that celebrate something like the Dunkirk spirit which when you look at it properly was actually a rout but was turned into a victory by the people involved, no wonder people are confused by us.

Our troops, both American and British are paying a heavy price for fighting the terrorists. I have my views on the British govenment that got us into this mess but always my support for the troops is solid (for yours as well as ours) and I'll say there is no way the British public is going to fall apart and let done our troops who face far worse. 

I'm not hugely or even very patriotic, I just like people whatever shape or form they come in, I like flirting with men, having laughs with girls, I worry about my children, about paying my bills, I love martial arts, grey days depress me, sunny days, kittens and children make me smile. There's more of course but with variations in that vein I'm everyman/woman. We have more in common than we have apart.  Way to go us - the people!


----------



## mrhnau (Jul 1, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Just back from work, I've been chatting to the bomb disposal lads at lunch who were at Glasgow (in the nicest way I have to say they are all as mad as chocolate frogs) they were saying that this type of car bomb was first used in the USA in limos but it was also foiled there. I'm sure someone can find it online somewhere, New York perhaps?


Interesting... we have both had attacks in various forms, and its frightening considering them, wether they be in the UK, here in the US or elsewhere.

It's amazing what a car loaded with nails and propane could do. Same thing with a few guys with box cutters (9/11) or some guy with a bunch of fertilizer (OKC bombing). The style of mayhem is not that important. It seems originality is on the rise.


> Our troops, both American and British are paying a heavy price for fighting the terrorists. I have my views on the British govenment that got us into this mess but always my support for the troops is solid (for yours as well as ours) and I'll say there is no way the British public is going to fall apart and let done our troops who face far worse.


I agree, and I honestly think the same for the US troops and public. No matter what politicians are saying, the citizens here do love their troops and support them.



> I'm not hugely or even very patriotic, I just like people whatever shape or form they come in, I like flirting with men, having laughs with girls, I worry about my children, about paying my bills, I love martial arts, grey days depress me, sunny days, kittens and children make me smile. There's more of course but with variations in that vein I'm everyman/woman. We have more in common than we have apart.  Way to go us - the people!



A great attitude  Stay safe, and keep us posted. I must agree! Way to go us! hehe


----------



## shesulsa (Jul 1, 2007)

Nail bombs are known for causing much damage - not so much to property as it is to PEOPLE.  A nail bomb is a deliberate attempt to maim and/or kill.

For the edification of anyone and everyone who is unfamiliar with these devices, here's a couple of links.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990419/ai_n14222844

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19990419/ai_n14222676

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nail_bomb

AND ... for those of us who want our men and women home soon ... and in tribute to the prosthetic-legged-serviceman my husband sat next to at Sea World on June 29, 2007 and all others who have been injured by NAIL BOMBS ...

http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/18-3pdfs/249Asai.pdf

:asian:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jul 1, 2007)

Not to make light of the attempts of some to place these car bombs where they did but do yo think these attempte where completly real attempts or more "dry Runs" for somehthing bigger to come in the future.

I would have hated for those car bombs to go off considering the amount of damage they might have caused and am thankful that the attempt was foiled. I am worried that they might have been attempts to test the awearness of the British police  and that something much bigger might be in the works


----------



## jdinca (Jul 1, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Not to make light of the attempts of some to place these car bombs where they did but do yo think these attempte where completly real attempts or more "dry Runs" for somehthing bigger to come in the future.
> 
> I would have hated for those car bombs to go off considering the amount of damage they might have caused and am thankful that the attempt was foiled. I am worried that they might have been attempts to test the awearness of the British police and that something much bigger might be in the works


 
I dunno. Given that had they gone off, they could have killed hundreds, followed by an attempt to cause a conflagration in a crowded terminal, I'm not so sure these were dry runs.


----------



## Jeff L (Jul 1, 2007)

I'm shocked that some of my fellow countrymen seem to find this funny.


Hopefully those of you across the pond have already seen the worst of these attacks.


----------



## CoryKS (Jul 2, 2007)

Jeff L said:


> I'm shocked that some of my fellow countrymen seem to find this funny.
> 
> 
> Hopefully those of you across the pond have already seen the worst of these attacks.


 
I agree.  I can only hope that the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of this latest attempt is proof that al Qaeda has eaten the seed corn.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2007)

To raise a genuine smile..... interviewed on the tv the Glaswegian baggage handler who tackled one of the car bomb terrorists at Glasgow's airport.  When asked why he tackled him and was he scared.  "*Och no*" he said firmly " *we'll be* *having none of that in Glasgow*!" Bless him for his bravery and his down to earth attitude.


----------



## jdinca (Jul 2, 2007)

Tez, what's the opinion over there on the comments made by the mayor of London?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2007)

What comments? Seriously I've been watching the BBC news plus the radio and have heard nothing! To be honest no one actaully takes a lot of notuce of him, he's made anti semitic remarks as well as other stupid stuff before, he's a real numpty and a relic from the old days of the communist sympathisers, he's not called Red Ken for nothing!


----------



## jdinca (Jul 2, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> What comments? Seriously I've been watching the BBC news plus the radio and have heard nothing! To be honest no one actaully takes a lot of notuce of him, he's made anti semitic remarks as well as other stupid stuff before, he's a real numpty and a relic from the old days of the communist sympathisers, he's not called Red Ken for nothing!



Whoops! After doing some searching, I've discovered that they were old comments about how the west is to blame for suicide bombers because of our middle east policy dating back to the first World War. 

Based on some of the stuff I've come across, he strikes me as a true whack job.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2007)

He's one of those white so called liberals that wants to be see by his 'black brothers'  (and Moslem etc) as the good guy who 'understands' them if you know the type I mean. he'll dress up in African clothes and try to 'connect' etc. it actually comes across as patronising and he just looks a **** lol! 

A very distrubing thing has emerged from these bombings.. that the would be killers are doctors. None of them are British but were allowed into the country to practice medicine which last time I looked meant trying to heal people not kill and maim them.


----------



## Hand Sword (Jul 3, 2007)

Yes, there are plenty of "Foxes" in the hen houses all over the world now.


----------



## CoryKS (Jul 3, 2007)

On a lighter note, here's a site where you can Pledge a Pint for John Smeaton, a baggage handler who tackled one of the Glasgow Airport terrorists.  He's only up to aboot 600 pints so far.


----------



## crushing (Jul 3, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> A very distrubing thing has emerged from these bombings.. that the would be killers are doctors. None of them are British but were allowed into the country to practice medicine which last time I looked meant trying to heal people not kill and maim them.


 
What I thought of when I first heard they were doctors was something I read several years ago about first generation middle class people tending to be much more radical.  I wish I could remember more about that article and the reasons that were given.  It may have been a _Foreign Affairs _article, but I'm not sure.


----------



## jdinca (Jul 3, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> He's one of those white so called liberals that wants to be see by his 'black brothers'  (and Moslem etc) as the good guy who 'understands' them if you know the type I mean. he'll dress up in African clothes and try to 'connect' etc. it actually comes across as patronising and he just looks a **** lol!
> 
> A very distrubing thing has emerged from these bombings.. that the would be killers are doctors. None of them are British but were allowed into the country to practice medicine which last time I looked meant trying to heal people not kill and maim them.



Zawahiri is a pediatrician.


----------



## michaeledward (Jul 4, 2007)

bydand said:


> Complete lack of perspective... How ironic you should use that phrase just before the drivel you went on to post. _Lets see what your reaction would have been if that same exact package was parked outside your place of work or home._
> 
> I have been waiting a LONG time to use this smiley. :321:
> Probably get another warning for it, but I'll take one to express that thought.


 
Scott, when I read this, I wanted to respond, but I wasn't quite sure how to do so, and make clear what I meant. In your post, you posit the 'what if' the 'car bombs' were outside my place of work. 

There are two thoughts here.

A - The world is a big place, and a failed, minor threat to one small block on the far side of the Atlantic Ocean, really shouldn't inpinge on my daily life at all. Now, you may take offense that my decision to label these items as a 'failed, minor threat' ... but we are not referencing Nagasaki, here. 

B - I hope that my reaction, if these devices were outside my home (which is my office), would be thankful that the perpetrators were incompetent. And I hope that it would not cause me to tremble in fear. It's a big world, and there are many dangers in it. 

But, something about your call .... that I should be afraid .... just doesn't ring true to me. And I don't want to sound all 'super-human-brave' or anything. I just want to sound _reasonable_. 

Well, I've been away to the North Country for a few days. My wife got me a book to read on the trip; Al Gore - The Assault on Reason. On the first page, of the first chapter, I found my answer. 

Scott, really, truly, I hope that a terrorist car bomb outside my house would not cause me to live in fear. Fear is stronger than reason. To make the case for his argument, Mr. Gore quotes a former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States. 

"Men feared witches, and burnt women".​
That is my argument. I do not want to give into fear, because somewhere, a woman might be set on fire, to free society from the clutches of witches. Read the responses of our colleagues here at MartialTalk. How many are crying loud "Witch! Witch!"? 

I hope that I never contribute to such an activity. 

Regards. 

I'm off to read the posts I've missed.​


----------



## Ninjamom (Jul 4, 2007)

ME, you continue to try to justify your original post, which quite frankly, is as indefensible as it was rude and insensitive.  No one on this forum posted from a perspective of irrational fear, yet you belittled any concern over the matter, claiming that the car bombs shouldn't really qualify as bombs at all.  You showed a complete lack of understanding of the facts of the situation (that the propane gas canisters loaded next to nails with a remote detonator tied to a cell phone could do considerable damage and showed some degree of sophistication), and when confronted with the facts, you changed your tack to, "look at me, I'm a hero of sound reason, protecting helpless women from would-be witch-burners."

Why not just be a man, admit that you got the facts wrong, and apologize?


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 4, 2007)

I've stayed away from this thread for a number of reasons but. now the dust has had time to settle, I dare venture an opinion or two.

*Mike*, usually I find your posts contentious but thought provoking and I've rep'd you before now for your boldness in laying things on the table, bare and unadorned.  In this case, I fear, as many of us have done, that you spoke in haste, didn't put your point as you wished and have drawn flak for it.

It is no shame to re-position an earlier post with clarifications when they have been misunderstood.  Attempting to move on from a position that is poorly grounded does neither yourself nor your readers any favours.

The mini-bombing campaign may have been carried out in a way that seems somewhat Amateur Night but the devices were quite capable of considerable harm (tho' I'm yet to hear anything about how effective the trigger mechanisms would've been).  It's the fact that the perpetrators seem to be well educated, intelligent members of the community that is the worry.

On the one hand, this means that even 'reasonable' individuals are being seduced by a mixture of real and perceived injustice to their 'homeland' or faith to commit unreasonable acts.  On the other, this is dry tinder to the sparks of our own extremists (who wont settle until every 'raghead' is either dead or at least not on 'our' soil anymore).

I shant even mention the possibility that these are manufactured events, manipulated for the purposes of our own government, as that in itself is off-beam for the current situation.

I firmly believe now that the oft referred to New Crusade is starting to spool up and that in not too many years we shall have a conflagration of Christian vs Moslem violence that proves we learnt nothing from the two world wars the West inflicted on itself.  There's a doomed inevitability about it and the crying shame is that most of those that will perish are no different than you or me in what they want out of life.

Ah well - I guess I'm still 'down' from reading the other thread about people stepping over a dying woman to carry on shopping.  I'm sure come the sunlight of tomorrow I shant be so Doom-Laden .


----------



## michaeledward (Jul 4, 2007)

Sukerkin, thank you for your thoughts. 

I don't think that I need to 'reposition' my original thoughts. I thought I captured it right on. In fact, in the third post on this thread, I commented that my original post was not about the reaction of the Brits. 

The point of my original post is that MY government over reacted with each threat before; and how will they over-react now? 

As for Amatuer Night, it is an apt description. 

I've been away, but I still don't think we have a clear explaination on several of the ascertions made throughout this thread. I am just back to where there is news, and things still not defined to me:


1 - How were the bomb plotters (I know 8 are now arrested) connected to al Qaeda? 
2 - How much gasoline and how much propane was in these vehicles. Reports I have seen said 33 gallons of gasoline. Other reports say a total of 50 gallons of fuel. No reports on the size of the propane tanks in the vehicles. No reports on any testing of these devices. 
3 - How the Glasgow incident connects to the London incidents. There seemed to be little connective, among them. 
4 - What, if any, was the connection to the Gay Pride Parade? 
5 - Where the registered owners of the Mercedes arrested? 
6 - And lastly, only hinted at so far, is if these eight persons are involved with the British Health Care system, might there be something more to worry about than car bombs? 

Thank you, again. 

Got to go change my signature now ....


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2007)

ME, if you  have a problem with your media not giving you the information you think you deserve, there's not a lot we can do about it. Why do you think you are due a clear explanation? 

I have read some words almost mirroring yours, interestingly enough, in the Irish republican press if that's the correct word for what the provos still shove out. 

You are quite right though about events over here not inpinging on your life, so why did you let it? Leave us to worry about *OUR* NHS and the terrorist threat, you worry about what ever you worry about, your government probably?

We don't let it make us fearful or cower in the corner, I think most people realise that. 

Are you sure it is witches men fear and not women? A feminist would argue that point.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 5, 2007)

Good questions there, *Mike* :tup:.

I can see that I shall have to dig into the reported news on this once again, especially as my curiosity is piqued by Question 4 above.

In a weird display of the Kevin Bacon Degrees of Seperation game, it seems that one of the criminals involved in this was the neurologist of a friend of my missus's sister {I think I got that chain right }; as you can imagine, her personal fear is somewhat in line with Question 6.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2007)

From The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2028718.ece


The Independant
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article2737136.ece

The Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/07/05/nterror105.xml


There is believed to be no perceived connection with the Gay Pride march, 
I read that yesterday in a briefing. It's believed more to do with the new government.


----------



## Sukerkin (Jul 5, 2007)

Thanks for those, *Tez* :tup:.  

Interesting reading, showing that even in the 'digital media age', the papers have more in-depth information that the TV.

I am struck by the protests of innocence from the families.  These ring very much in resonance with any parental/sibling comments made about suddenly revealed heinous crimes by someone close.  At the moment of revelation, it doesn't seem likely that your son/brother etc can have possibly done such a terrible thing, so you deny it, no matter what the evidence, or how daft it makes you sound.

I feel as sorry for these people as I do the families in Leeds in the aftermath of their children performing the bombings on the London Underground.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2007)

Good point Sukerkin, I've always wondered about the parents of suicide bombers when they are seen applauding their childrens deaths. Do they really think that or are they greaving inside while everyone tells them what a good thing their son/daughter did? Whatever they think about the actions their child is still dead.
I have to say that I would defend my children and would never believe they would do anything as wrong as this.To find out that your loved ones are mass killers etc is an awful betrayal.

Someone had a paper yesterday ( a tabloid) where there was an interview with a man whose 2 year old daughter was raped and killed by his own brother. How do you live with that?


----------



## michaeledward (Jul 5, 2007)

Tez3, I must commend the law enforcement officials in Great Britian for not revealing information that they do not wished revealed. 

Before I went away - to a place without televisions, cell phones, and interent access - I reviewed the news reports available. Most of them said very little. There was little factual information out there. 

Since my return, last evening, I have found a bit more factual information, although certainly not enough to gain a full understanding of what occurred. For instance, of the eight arrested, how many names have been revealed? In this country, names of arrested persons are released almost immediately - except for minors, and sexual assault victims. 

(EDIT - I see the July 5, Timesonline report includes the names of the Glasgow driver and passenger. Was it released by anyone earlier?).


However, the last time, some crackpots in England got it in their head to do something stupid ~ bring liquids onto airplanes, perform some advanced chemistry in the loo, and create an inflight liquid bomb to simultaneously down several transatlantic flights ~ the United States government instituted rule changes upon all air travelers. 

And, as I mentioned before, the time before that, it was a single crackpot, who attempted to light his Nike aflame, mid-flight, that causes all US Passengers to shed footwear. 

So, Tez3, we don't leave it to you to worry about. The fear created by these actions, reasonable or unreasonable, causes very tangible consequences that probably do very little to make us more safe. Instead, it provides and illusion of safety, and a means for increased government authoritariatism.


Post Script - I understand that British law enforcement has blown up two cars. Apparently, these motor vehicles might have had a possible connection to the car bombings. But, after being deliberately exploded, it appears they were not. Just some innocent persons vehicles (one would assume). Any word on that?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2007)

I believe the laws here are possibly very different to yours, names are very often not released and information doesn't have to be released to the public at all. there is no Freedom of Information type of legislation here. The police -in criminal cases will keep things as tight as possible and once someone has been charged it them becomes sub judice. The media can't report on a case as it may prejudice a fair trial by jury. The security service obviously will not release anything inless it's to solicit information or to resassure people.They've learnt from previous bombings campaigns, we've been wary of bombs in the UK now since 1969. The biggest problem of course is that the media especially foreign media is fond of speculating.

The cars weren't blown up as such but a controlled explosion was used to nullify any ieds there may have been in them. They are believed to have been connected to the bombers.


----------



## michaeledward (Jul 5, 2007)

I understand. The lack of official information to be released leads to much inaccurate speculation, especially with the corporate news companies in this country. While it may be good policy on the part of British law enforcement, it creates vacuums that the witchhunters can fill. 

What is the difference between 'blown up' and 'controlled explosion'? And would it matter if the car was yours? And, they were 'believed' to be connected to the bombers *prior* to the controlled explosion, after that, does it matter what was believed?


----------



## Odin (Jul 5, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I understand. The lack of official information to be released leads to much inaccurate speculation, especially with the corporate news companies in this country. While it may be good policy on the part of British law enforcement, it creates vacuums that the witchhunters can fill.
> 
> What is the difference between 'blown up' and 'controlled explosion'? And would it matter if the car was yours? And, they were 'believed' to be connected to the bombers *prior* to the controlled explosion, after that, does it matter what was believed?


 
Why does any of that matter to you?

You have already stated that you think we have taken the whole thing too seriously.

Im not sure how non-serious a planned nail bomb can be taken.

To be honest i dont want to get involved in this whole debate, I live in London and was out in london the night in question.

I think you might need to have a bit of empathy before you start making the kind of comments you have made, regardless of how big the bomb was or wasnt even if it killed only one person it would have still been a tragedy.


----------



## michaeledward (Jul 5, 2007)

Odin,

As I have stated, from the very first post in this thread, it matters to me because our governments over-react. And those over-reactions are completely out or proportion with the cause.

And, if you look at my statements, you will find that I did not state that you are taking things 'too seriously' - however, our news media, and I fear my government may very well take this too seriously - VIPER teams - Good Grief. 

Although, I am certianly being attacked because many here believe that I said the things you accuse me of 

Tez3 attacked me and attacked my post; not for what I said, but for what he thought I said. 

And, yes, if one person had been killed, it would have been bad. I will point out that no one was killed, what do we call that? Of course, that is not what I was saying. 

So, why did you enter the debate?


----------



## Odin (Jul 5, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> Odin,
> 
> As I have stated, from the very first post in this thread, it matters to me because our governments over-react. And those over-reactions are completely out or proportion with the cause.
> 
> ...


 
I wasnt aware that New Prime minister has done anything, how could he then have over reacted?

......and as for the media news sells of course every single whisper that is ever produced will be printed or reported on simply because it sells, its what the media does, saying the media over reacts is like saying the japs like karoke.

Tez is a lady by the way, and you may have to give some thought into how you wrote your first comment rather then how one would read it since quite a few posters have shared Tez's opinion.

who said anything about debating? i just made a comment ( :


----------



## Lisa (Jul 5, 2007)

*Ladies and Gentlemen of this thread.

The subject at hand is the Picadilly Car Bombs and not who started what or who said what about whom.  Lets get back on track please.  Moderator warnings have been placed and I would hate to have this thread disrupted again.  Thanks.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin.*


----------



## qi-tah (Jul 6, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> 6 - And lastly, only hinted at so far, is if these eight persons are involved with the British Health Care system, might there be something more to worry about than car bombs?


 

I was wondering when someone would bring this up. Hospitals have a plethora of dangerous substances floating around that an enterprising doctor could lay their hands on... drugs and other chemicals, gas cylinders nice and handy, biohazardous material galore... ****, with the amount of MRSA hanging about the average hospital, all they had to do was not wash their hands between patients! (Semi-joke, unfortunately) So why were they messing about with dodgy car bombs??

Funnily enough, i believe that Tez and ME are ultimately on the same page - we must not allow fear to rule our lives. Our job as citizens (and a privelaged job, never let us forget!) is to remain the same honourable, compassionate and law-abiding persons, regardless of the threat we face. It is not our lives at stake, but our humanity. :asian:


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2007)

Why didn't they act within the medical system?  Visibility.

Terrorism has as a primary goal visibility.  Having the act seen, and putting the public in terror.  A doctor is really just an "end user" of the medical system; while they have access to a lot of stuff that could be put to nefarious uses, the reality is the impact they could have is very limited.  But a car bomb...  That's visible.  That's scary.  And it's easier to do on a large enough scale.  

There are also fewer checks; I suspect (I know it is in the US) that getting their hands on stuff that is simultaneously easily enough dispersed and handled, and sufficiently lethal to really put a scare in people isn't easy without leaving lots of tracks.


----------



## donna (Jul 6, 2007)

The authorities are holding a doctor in Brisbane over his links to the doctors involved in the bombings, I thought that was too close to home until yesterday!. They raided Royal Perth Hospital to question two more Indian doctors, then they raided our local hospital here in Kalgoorlie to question an Indian doctor here who they suspect of having links!. The world is becoming smaller every day.


----------



## qi-tah (Jul 7, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Why didn't they act within the medical system? Visibility.
> 
> Terrorism has as a primary goal visibility. Having the act seen, and putting the public in terror. A doctor is really just an "end user" of the medical system; while they have access to a lot of stuff that could be put to nefarious uses, the reality is the impact they could have is very limited. But a car bomb... That's visible. That's scary. And it's easier to do on a large enough scale.
> 
> There are also fewer checks; I suspect (I know it is in the US) that getting their hands on stuff that is simultaneously easily enough dispersed and handled, and sufficiently lethal to really put a scare in people isn't easy without leaving lots of tracks.


 

I agree about the visibility thing, but unfortunately i disagree about the ability of doctors (and other health care professionals as well) to gain access to dangerous materials... god, one of the uni's i worked at did informal swaps of materials for services etc to supplement their abysmal levels of funding! No-one asked any questions, no-one made any checks... and stuff often went missing, only to wind up in another dept a few weeks later. In an overworked hospital, how easy would it be for someone to make up a duplicate plate of some nasty, drug-resistant bacterial isolate and then go around discreetly swabbing everything in sight? Maybe chuck some Legionella influenzae in the air-conditioning cooling system? Do that in a few hospitals simulatneously and there would be a mass uproar! 

As for the potential for mass deaths working within the medical system, anyone remember Dr. Shipman? 200+ deaths to his name and no-one is really sure of the exact toll... Britan's worst serial killer.

I hate to say it, but let's hope they stick to car bombs. At least we have a chance against that very "visible" (and also exposed) kind of violence. Bio-terrorism, on the other hand, is a truly terrifying prospect.


----------

