# too young to train?



## lucifersdad (Apr 25, 2003)

i was just wondering at what age schools take students and at what age, if they've graded properly and they are of a good standard, you think children should be aloud to take their dan grades??

i know this might annoy some people but i teach kids from 4 years old and my youngest black belt is 11, is this too young? my instructor/ association don't think so, what about you?


----------



## Kope (Apr 25, 2003)

My school's program will accept anyone age 5 and up, provided they will pay attention in class and not require constant reprimands on behavior.

Our youngest BB is around 13.

As long as the standards are equally high, I see no problem with it.

I know we have a lot of kids and adults drop out in the last year or so leading up to black -- they can't make the cut. We have very few youth bb's compared to adult bb's. (not that we have that many adults -- maybe 10 or so .. but only 2 kids that I am aware of).


----------



## Mike Clarke (Apr 25, 2003)

This is just my opinion [but it's based on almost 30 years of karate training].
You can't teach Martial Arts to children as they don't have the mind to understand the things requierd.
You can teach them movements and play at being little samurai, but that is not Martial Arts, it's something else.
Martial Arts are serious and as such training should only be undertaken by mature people [not all adults are mature by the way].
Who would want to put children under the kind of stress a student has to endure is beyond me. 
Having kids in the dojo/dojang/kwoon etc may well be the only way some schools can stay open, but having them there for such reasons is not Martial Arts either, it's basic commerce.

Mike.


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *This is just my opinion [but it's based on almost 30 years of karate training].
> You can't teach Martial Arts to children as they don't have the mind to understand the things requierd.
> You can teach them movements and play at being little samurai, but that is not Martial Arts, it's something else.
> ...



Maybe this is true for the combat side of the arts Mike, but what about the more esoteric aspects that the Martial Arts can bring?

What about teaching the child self confidence through martial arts philosophy?

What about self respect and respect for others?

Self discipline, loyalty, and a few other principles that children can learn, all go toward creating a better kind of black belt.

Having said that I think the whole idea of a junior black belt relly has to be assessed by different requirements to an adult BB. By that I mean with the adult we have requirements pertaining to technical knowledge, kata knowledge, ie quantity, quality of execution and application knowledge. Physical fitness to get through the gradings etc.
With children, it should be more about attitiude, and preparedness to learn new things. Not so much about physical ability....

Just my A$0.02 worth. 

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Apr 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kope _
> *My school's program will accept anyone age 5 and up, provided they will pay attention in class and not require constant reprimands on behavior.
> 
> Our youngest BB is around 13.
> ...



Where I currently train the minimum age is also 5 years old, however, not many kids or adults for that matter, stick around long enough to reach the dan ranks. When they find out what's involved including all of the hard work, sweat and effort required, they decide to find other activities to keep them occupied. 

My daughter, who's currently 13, was only recently promoted to BLACK (1st Poom), but, she's been training for years and is pretty dedicated to the Art. I'm very proud of her...


----------



## moromoro (Apr 26, 2003)

karate and TKD have always been popular with the kids
for its discipline and fun

what age is the minimum for a black belt in either arts? i know it may vary for each ryu?
but is there a age where it is just simply too young to recieve a shodan or 1st poom.............

thanks

terry


----------



## Aegis (Apr 26, 2003)

Persoanlly the idea of an 11 year old black belt is totally ridiculous to me. An 11 year old might be able to do all the techniques, but can you honestly tell me that they really understand the art? Besides, they still have puberty to contend with, during which their body will change shape, their mind will alter and consequentially they may well find themselves unable to perform the techniques correctly any more. Assuming you don't revoke rank once it is awarded, this would leave you with a very 3rd rate black belt who actually has a legitimate grade.

I would personally never award a black to anyone under the age of 16 under any circumstances. On the other hand, I have no right to award any grade but a yellow in Judo, so it's not a situation likely to come up any time soon.


----------



## arnisador (Apr 26, 2003)

I've heard that traditionally, in Okinawan, karate training wasn't started until during- or post-puberty, say 12 or so. I don't know if it's true or so.


----------



## lucifersdad (Apr 26, 2003)

i dont know about were you guys train but in my svhool we have a slightly modified syllabus for kids,
for example instead of learning knife defences we teach them where to go if you get lost, to find a person in authority, how to make a reverse charge call home etc. etc,
this is basically the kids version of the "defences" side of training, i dont see the point in teaching an 8 year old how to deal with a drunk dude in a bar, but i do see the point in teaching them how to do "break-aways" if they are grabbed, you see my point?

appart from anything else all junior grades are retaken at 17 in our association with the full adult syllabus and beleive me its a baptism of fire to be marked on 20 armlocks 20 choke holds 20 knife defences when you havnt had the constant training as you would if you went through the grades as a senior, so for anyone to make the junior/senior crosover is quite an acheivment( trust me, i know its hard! i had to do it!).

and as for saying a junior cannot "understand" the art, what do you want? 8 year old trained killers, or well behaved well educated young people? if we can teach kids how to be good peiople now, maybe we wont have to put such an enphasis on gun and knife defences later on?
please tell me im intruiged


----------



## Aegis (Apr 26, 2003)

Understanding an art does not imply that you're a killer.

Memorising armlocks and chokes is easy.

Knife defences are harder, especially if done at speed with a wooden/metal training knife. 

What else do they have to demonstrate? Because to be perfectly honest, that sounds like something closer to a green belt grading in my style of Jujutsu.

Edit: I suppose it all depends on what you consider a black belt to mean. In my style, a black belt is a rather senior member of the association, instead of  the philosophy of a lot of arts (the one that states that a black belt has only just mastered the basics)


----------



## Kope (Apr 27, 2003)

My particular school has the philosophy that there are basic and advanced forms.

A 1st degree black belt has demonstrated enough knowledge of all the basic forms that they can teach them.

A 1st degree black belt is still about 20 years away from sifu's level of training


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kope _
> *My particular school has the philosophy that there are basic and advanced forms.
> 
> A 1st degree black belt has demonstrated enough knowledge of all the basic forms that they can teach them.
> ...



Exactly! All first dan BLACK really signifies is that one has mastered just the basic techniques of their Art. I've been told time and time again that 1st degree BLACK in reality is the true beginning of one's martial arts training. When you reach 1st degree BLACK what you've done is just set the foundation of the house. Your next step is to start building up from that foundation... :asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin _
> *Exactly! All first dan BLACK really signifies is that one has mastered just the basic techniques of their Art. I've been told time and time again that 1st degree BLACK in reality is the true beginning of one's martial arts training. When you reach 1st degree BLACK what you've done is just set the foundation of the house. Your next step is to start building up from that foundation... :asian: *



As someones signature on Martial Talk says, Up to black belt you are learning the basics. After black belt you start learning how to use the basics.

Or something to that effect anyway

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Mike Clarke (Apr 27, 2003)

Dave,
I think I get your drift , but I'm still of the opinion that "Martial" arts can't be taught to a child. 
What you spoke of,  I call "Good Parenting!"

If one thinks of martial arts as a passtime, hobby, or something they do for 'enjoyment', then I say they are not training in Martial Arts at all. Training is too challenging to be 'enjoyable'. Too demanding to be a 'hobby', and too bloody dangerous to be a 'passtime'.

As a young yudansha I use to throw up [with nerves] on the way to training because I knew what was coming. Coming home without being exhausted and often badly brused was impossible.
My students are recieving the same education I had, no worse and no easier. 

Kids can and do train in martial arts 'type' activities, but that is not the same as training in Martial Arts.
The truth is that for many instructors out there, if they didn't have a room full of kids to look after, they'ed have no students at all!

As for the philosophical side of the Arts? I'm not sure the majority of those teaching have studied their art enough to pass on such information? Philosophy is best learnt [like everything else in my opinion] through personal experience and not by reading books or quoting from some associations hand book.

In almost 30 years, I've met few who have a philosophy that grew from their own experiences. Most folk confuse information with knowledge and knowledge with wisdom. The first two you can get from outside, but the last you have to grow from within.
And you can't do that with just a few years of mediocre experiences to call on.

Anyway, this is all just my humble 2c worth.

Mike.


----------



## lucifersdad (Apr 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *
> What else do they have to demonstrate? Because to be perfectly honest, that sounds like something closer to a green belt grading in my style of Jujutsu.
> QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## chufeng (Apr 27, 2003)

I will train children, but not until they are at least seven years old.

Their bodies are not ready for the kind of training we will ask them to do...more importantly, they do not have the ability to concentrate for more than 20 minutes...to train someone younger is a set-up for a frustrated student who may choose never to take up martial arts again...

Even with that said, I'd never entertain promoting someone to black-belt unless he/she could meet the requirements for that grade...I don't see that happening in someone less than 16 years old...even that is a stretch.

I've had several children train with me...none of them lasted past the first promotion..."too much work" was the usual excuse.

My youngest son (10 years old) really wants to start training...
He currently has a "PortaCath" in his right chest which connects to his right internal jugular vein...I won't allow him to train until that is out...

Sure he could train in kata, but I see how seriously he takes his guitar training (not seriously enough...he's too busy being a kid) and the longer I wait to get him started, the more likely he will be to seriously pursue REAL martial training... 

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Aegis (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lucifersdad _
> it may sound like a green belt ju jutsu grading, as far as the defences side looks, but ive only said a small part of what they do for there practical application section of the test.
> please remember this is from a pradomanatly(SP?) striking style  [/B]



You made it sound like there were only the locks and knife defences, which really didn't sound like much. So how much is actually on the shodan test?

As an aside, I always find it strange that people consider shodan to be a "low-grade". Even in Judo I always considered a shodan to be a high grade. Nidan and above was just great. And to be perfectly honest I liked it that way...


----------



## lucifersdad (Apr 28, 2003)

apart from the knife work locks etc. allstudents grading for shodan have to complete:-

1000 word written thesis on karate
20 question written exam

then,
stage 1

front kick, lunge punch
front kick, reverse punch
front kick leaning front punch
front kick, leaning reverse puch
front kick, 3 chain punches
front kick, double punch
front kick
roundhouse kick
side thrust kick
back kick
inner creasent kick
groin snap kick
2 level/jumping front kick
side kick
spinning hook kick
twisting/ inside roundhouse kick
hook kick
1 step front kick
1 step roundhouse kick
1 step side thrust kick
1 step spinning hook kick
1 step twisting kick
snap punch
side stepping snap punch
crossed arm bloke upper/lower area
ridge hand

stage 2 (renraku waza)

front kick snap punch
front kick reverse punch
f/kick, side thrust kick, reverse punch
f/kick, s t/kick, r h/kick
f/kick, s t/kick, one step roundhouse kick, reverse punch
1 step roundhouse kick, reverse punch, defensive step
front kick, side thrust kick, back kick, reverse punch
side thrust kick, back kick, snap punch, reverse punch
front kick(body) roundhouse kick (head) same leg

and,
snap punch, reverse punch, front kick, side stepping snap punch, roundhouse kick

stage 3 (kata)

tokiyoko
pinan nidan
pinan shodan
pinan sandan
pinan yodan
pinan godan
kushanku
naihanchi
chinto

stage 4 (defences)
demonstrate,
knife defences
traditional blocks from attack
arm locks
immobalising holds
chokes
attack on 20 kyusho's
show 8 points of balance

stage 5 (tamai shiwara)

10 tiles
8 tiles on fire
1 brick


so theres our dan syllabus and except stage 4, our juniors do the lot side by side with the adults! still think its unfair for juniors to hold dan grades?
how does this dan grade syllabus compare to everyone elses out there?, just out of intrest


----------



## tshadowchaser (Apr 28, 2003)

I'm split in my thinking on this one.
 I feel that children that are brought up in and around the training area are quicker to learn the movements and even understand the underlying ideas of the movements.  They will perhaps be more limber and better disiplined because of the influence.  
 However, you can not force a child to learn and expect good results. If the child is not truely interested they won't learn. If they do not have some disipline and an understanding of what is expected they should not be in the school.
 As for young black belts I am against it. I dont belive in jr. black belts and I dont belive any 12 year old should be a 4th or 5th degree.
 It really breaks done to how mature the child is and what they are expected to learn, sport, or war art.


----------



## lucifersdad (Apr 28, 2003)

i do agree to some degree.
if a child can train properly, and give the dedication needed i cant see a problem with them attaining dan grade.
however, when you say about a 12 year old attaining 4th or 5th dan, thats just stupid(the grade, not your comment)
i hope you are exagerating!
arent you?


----------



## tarabos (Apr 28, 2003)

the youngest black belt we have at our school is 24. take that for what you will. we accept children around age 5, but there aren't many that are that young. i'd say the youngest average that we get in is probably 7 years old. even then, most of their time training is spent working on what they should be working on, basics. still, i think they are promoted too fast, but that's just my opinion and not my decision to make. 

i do have a problem with stripped down cirriculums for children. if you don't feel they aren't old enough to learn the system as it should be taught, then don't patronize them with some half-baked version of the system. it only winds up discouraging them when the time finally comes that they are made to start studying the "complete" cirruculum and then they feel lost, like all the years they put in before were for nothing. teaching how to punch, kick and block correctly is one thing, but when you get into the material that makes your system truly unique, nothing should be held back. 

i do realize the pressures there are on studio/dojo/school owners, especially in the states, to advance a child in rank. a lot of it comes from over-zealous parents, some of it comes from unwarrented fear of losing students. all in all though, i think children are looked at more as tiny little cash cows, rather than the potential future of the art that you teach. it's an easy and seductive trap to fall into. the route of all evil indeed.


----------



## moromoro (Apr 28, 2003)

> the youngest black belt we have at our school is 24.



gee, how long has he been training?

what school is it?


----------



## cas (Apr 29, 2003)

In karate and within styles there are shodans and shodans. This differs from countrie to countrie and from dojo to dojo.
A level of skills is not determined so much by how many techniques you know but how well you can demonstrate and aply the techniques (and it's underlying principles) you do know. 
In the Netherlands dan examinations are done by the national karate association. There are offcourse different examinationboards for different styles. This gives some assurance of being on the same level.



Casper Baar


----------



## vin2k0 (Apr 29, 2003)

The youngest black belt at our club is 10, and i, personally, think it is ridiculous. There is no way that a child of 10 can be mentally ready to be a 'true' black belt, as this involves a high level of maturity and dedication.


----------



## Aegis (Apr 29, 2003)

This is why no-one really has much respect for a black belt any more.... when 10 year olds can get one it really doesn't seem like much!


----------



## KennethKu (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vin2k0 _
> *The youngest black belt at our club is 10, and i, personally, think it is ridiculous. There is no way that a child of 10 can be mentally ready to be a 'true' black belt, as this involves a high level of maturity and dedication. *



They are Junior BB. In some organizations, they have to take the regular BB test when they reach 16.


----------



## lucifersdad (Apr 29, 2003)

as kenethku said, most associations including mine make students revert back to 1st kyu as they turn senior.
our association reaslises there is a difference between a junior grade and senior grade esspecially when it comes to dan grades, thats why our "re-grade" age is 17 for dan grades were as a student takes senior kyu grades at 16.
and why do some of you guys find it hard to beleive that students, including juniors, train because they enjoy it?
and as for "holding back" when teaching, as i said before does a 10 year old really need to know how to defend themselves froma drunk dude in a bar? i think teaching them what they need to know and making their learning applicable is more important than turning out killers and philosiphers, or am i on my own here?


----------



## Aegis (Apr 29, 2003)

My opinion is that if you want to water down your syllabus to make it appropriate to teach kids, then you shouldn't award them high grades. Give them lots of low grades to go for instead. Then they can feel as though they are advancing nice and quickly, but don't (as you put it) revert to 1st kyu at 16 where they might find themselves knowing a lot less than their peers.


----------



## vin2k0 (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *They are Junior BB. In some organizations, they have to take the regular BB test when they reach 16. *



They may well be junior BBs but i still think it is ridiculous. At the age of 15 they could be a 3rd dan???!! Surely its wrong? They do not have to re-sit thier shodan grading, but at 16 if they have passed any dans they must sit it as an 'adult'.


----------



## chufeng (Apr 30, 2003)

The USJA (judo) has a system where there are 12 junior grades...highest is purple belt...when the student turns 17, he will hold junior purple until his first test (which would be rokkyu, yellow belt)...the other option would be to start having the junior train and compete with seniors at the age of fourteen and then begin senior promotions at that age (it is up to the discretion of the coach)...so a junior can remain a junior rank, if he chooses until his 17th birthday, or start training with adults anywhere after the age of 14.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Aegis (Apr 30, 2003)

When you become an adult in the British Judo association, you're allowed to keep your junior grade for a year. After that it expires and you have to start from scratch. If during that year you satisfy the requirements (both theory and competition) for your equivalent grade, then you get to keep it. I assume that if you meet the requirements for a grade slightly lower than equivalent then you get that instead.

Bottom line is that juniors must enter the adult grading syllabus at the appropriate time or they lose their grade. Tough but fair.


----------



## vin2k0 (Apr 30, 2003)

where in britain are u? im in manchester...


----------



## Aegis (Apr 30, 2003)

I spend half my time in the West Midlands, and the other half in the Cambridgeshire area.


----------



## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by vin2k0 _
> *They may well be junior BBs but i still think it is ridiculous. At the age of 15 they could be a 3rd dan???!! Surely its wrong? They do not have to re-sit thier shodan grading, but at 16 if they have passed any dans they must sit it as an 'adult'. *



3rd Dan at 15? then it is hog wash.


----------



## D.Cobb (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *Dave,
> I think I get your drift , but I'm still of the opinion that "Martial" arts can't be taught to a child.
> What you spoke of,  I call "Good Parenting!"
> ...



I can, on one hand agree with you, but on the other hand, I have seen close up what can be achieved in the life of a problem child. Sometimes the parents are to close to see what is needed, and in the case of one young child that is a big part of my life, I have seen improvements that a few short months ago, we all would have believed impossible. His parents couldn't control him, and I was the only one that he would listen to, and even then I had to be careful with the way I pushed. 
Anyhoo, I signed him up at our school, and the changes were almost instantaneous.......
At home, at school, everywhere. His focus in class, is almost absolute, in fact he is quite often called upon to be the example, for the other kids. His parents and I cannot believe that he is the same child. The teaching has had a two way effect too, he is a better person for it and his parents are learning how to be better parents. It is marvellous.

I'll see your humble 2c, and raise you a modest 2c 

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## angrywhitepajamas (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I've heard that traditionally, in Okinawan, karate training wasn't started until during- or post-puberty, say 12 or so. I don't know if it's true or so. *



Many of the shools in my area won't look at you unless you are atleast 14.

And the only 15 year old 5dan I only know one and her immediate family is an average of 6 dan to 8dan.  
She is the only one that I am aware of with the spunk to back it up. (the bruises are still healing  )


----------



## Shinzu (May 2, 2003)

if a junior is going to be a black belt, i think they should be a junior black belt.  there is a difference between children and adults.


----------



## moromoro (May 3, 2003)

15 year old 5th dan this is total bull ****,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

5dan for kata but not for fighting.........


----------



## Shinzu (May 3, 2003)

children are not mature enough to handle the responsibility of what a black belt really is and does.  there should be an age requirement in my opinion, but it would be impossible to make it a universal rule.


----------



## KennethKu (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *Many of the shools in my area won't look at you unless you are atleast 14.
> 
> And the only 15 year old 5dan I only know one and her immediate family is an average of 6 dan to 8dan.
> She is the only one that I am aware of with the spunk to back it up. (the bruises are still healing  ) *



What art is that?


----------



## moromoro (May 5, 2003)

yes what art is it in???????????????

iam betting a new made up art


----------



## lucifersdad (May 5, 2003)

lol, i knew starting this thread would cause sum agrovation!

but im with the others , i'd love to know what art there is a 15 year old 5th dan, through what governing body, graded by who, and if there really is a 15 year old 5thdan how much do they charge for private tuition 'cos they have to be better than all of us to attain such a grade at such a young age!

and just because there family does it is no excuse! i know a guy who's mum is our associations shihan (6th dan) and he was 25 when he did his last grading and that was for 4th dan, and this guy has been training more or less since he could walk!! (figure of speech dont get angry!)


----------



## angrywhitepajamas (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *yes what art is it in???????????????
> 
> iam betting a new made up art *



Shito or chito ryu (im not shure of the spelling)

And trust me the bruises are real.
Im 6'3 240lbs and a former boxer turned ueichi.  This girl is fast. and the fact that she got all the special attention(ie training) from her family.

All the others who claimed that rank who are her age that I have met did not stand up to the sparring.


----------



## angrywhitepajamas (May 5, 2003)

and if you wish you may sparr with her and my sensei.  Other than that don't trash the rare compotent 15 year old thats around.  


There will always be an exception to the age rule.


----------



## lucifersdad (May 5, 2003)

hey, im not doubting she's competant! i teach a 15 year old boy who stopped fighting juniors in tournaments becouse he had no competition, he only trains and sparrs with adults, karate, muay thai, submission, MMA, and he holds his own, but hes a first dan not a fifth! just 'cos a student is talented doesnt mean they can obtain whatever grade they wish, there are rules and regulations on grades for everyone, not just juniors, for a reason.
stop me if im wrong, im all for juniors training, (i mean i started this thread!) but within reason, my sensei is a fifth dan and he has 30+ years training, i cant see anyone attaining that grade legitimately in less time, so someone who has only been a live for less than half of that time?
in the words of macauly culkin "i don't think so!"
juniors training, yes, juniors reaching dan grade, yes, juniors reaching master grade, be serious!


----------



## Shinzu (May 6, 2003)

one student in my former school had to wait until she was 18 to test for her masters belt.  a good rule in my opinion.


----------



## tarabos (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *gee, how long has he been training?
> 
> what school is it? *



about 11 years this august i belive...


----------



## tarabos (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *There will always be an exception to the age rule. *



i don't disagree, and the exception goes both ways. some kids mature faster than others physically, and some kids mature slower than others physically. through the years i've seen some kids come in that were around the age of 15 or 16, but if you had asked me what i thought their age was before i knew the truth, i would have said 11 or 12. they just looked very young, and acted very young as well. so just because you old enough to participate in an adult class, it doesn't always mean that you should be. 

i sprouted up pretty fast. when i was 13 or 14 i was already the same height i am now. guess i just stopped getting taller eh? 

i was out their sparring the adults, much larger than me, and i was better for it. granted, i wasn't wearing a black belt, but i was holding my own for the most part. i also participated in various sports, so i had some athletic background as well to help me out. basically, you never know what might factor in to a child's developement.

still, i feel a black belt at least *should* be a responsibility that is USUALLY too big for a young person to handle or grasp the meaning of. and on junior black belts, yes, my school has them, but only for the kids classes. once you are deemed ready for the adult class...you basically will be wearing that junior black belt for a long time until you are ready for your "real" black belt. i suppose it can be a good thing if it keeps kids interested in the art, but it has many drawbacks as well. i myself am not for it, and have stated it in the past. 

that said, to each his own.


----------

