# What do you think about foot pivoting



## amateur (Dec 19, 2018)

What is the proper way to generate body rotation? Should I pivot my foot or keep my foot planted and pivot my hips instead? Generally, MMA teaches you should start a rotation by pivoting your back foot, but I have read a youtube comment that said 'never pivot'. Was he talking about eastern styles?


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## Headhunter (Dec 20, 2018)

Jesus.....taking advice from YouTube is bad enough but taking advice from YouTube COMMENTS is ridiculous. Majority of those guys are either fat old men who spend all day at their computers or 10 year old kids....both with 0 experience but claim to be Bruce lees secret child neither are worth listening to


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## pdg (Dec 20, 2018)

A coach/teacher should be able to show you what works far better than YouTube comments...


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## lklawson (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> What is the proper way to generate body rotation? Should I pivot my foot or keep my foot planted and pivot my hips instead? Generally, MMA teaches you should start a rotation by pivoting your back foot, but I have read a youtube comment that said 'never pivot'. Was he talking about eastern styles?


Umm... What?  I mean, yeah.  I mean, both.  Or "it depends."  

Look, both have a place and some arts or teachers or interpretations may emphasize one over the other.  A lot of it can be context sensitive too.  Every try to pivot your foot on asphalt while wearing really grippy shoes?  

Go train and let your instructor guide you.  You'll learn how, where, when, and why.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> What is the proper way to generate body rotation? Should I pivot my foot or keep my foot planted and pivot my hips instead? Generally, MMA teaches you should start a rotation by pivoting your back foot, but I have read a youtube comment that said 'never pivot'. Was he talking about eastern styles?



Ditto the confusion other people have indicated.
For starters, you have two feet, not one (that is, admittedly, an assumption on my part - it's certainly possible you're an amputee). It would also be helpful to know what exactly you're talking about. Body mechanics for power generation vary greatly. Generating power for a jab certainly is not the same as generating power for a rear leg roundhouse. Power generation for a specific technique (i.e. the aforementioned rear leg roundhouse) also varies, depending on a number of factors.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> What is the proper way to generate body rotation? Should I pivot my foot or keep my foot planted and pivot my hips instead? Generally, MMA teaches you should start a rotation by pivoting your back foot, but I have read a youtube comment that said 'never pivot'. Was he talking about eastern styles?



Depends on the circumstances.  When transitioning from one stance to another, the movement of one or both feet (typically one) can be used to generate power into or out of a stance.  Likewise, hips are very often used to generate power, with or without movement of the feet.  In our style hip generated power is 'koshi'.   Koshi is not just used to generate power.


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## amateur (Dec 20, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Every try to pivot your foot on asphalt while wearing really grippy shoes?



I know what you mean!




Dirty Dog said:


> Generating power for a jab certainly is not the same as generating power for a rear leg roundhouse.



I'm a beginner and I know only so many techniques. I had mainly cross in mind, perhaps I should have been more specific. But I didn't know that you rotate at jabs as well; I have been taught jab is just an arm extension.


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## Headhunter (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> I know what you mean!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then you need a new teacher


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## lklawson (Dec 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Then you need a new teacher


He says he's a beginner.  Maybe he hasn't gotten to that detailed of instruction yet.  Or maybe he just doesn't realize some of the finer elements yet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Headhunter (Dec 20, 2018)

lklawson said:


> He says he's a beginner.  Maybe he hasn't gotten to that detailed of instruction yet.  Or maybe he just doesn't realize some of the finer elements yet.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


He said he's been taught to jab with just an arm extension....a jab is the most basic punch and he's been taught it wrong...that's not good teaching because now he'll have bad habits which are extremely hard ro break


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## lklawson (Dec 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> He said he's been taught to jab with just an arm extension....a jab is the most basic punch and he's been taught it wrong...that's not good teaching because now he'll have bad habits which are extremely hard ro break


how often do you find the beginners have a good grasp of any technique? How often do you find that they are able to communicate that effectively?


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## amateur (Dec 20, 2018)

Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 20, 2018)

42


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> What is the proper way to generate body rotation? Should I pivot my foot or keep my foot planted and pivot my hips instead? Generally, MMA teaches you should start a rotation by pivoting your back foot, but I have read a youtube comment that said 'never pivot'. Was he talking about eastern styles?


Depends on the martial arts system you are training in.  There different ways to drive power.  If you are driving power with your hip then you will probably at a great risk of damaging your knee by keeping that foot planted.  If you are using the waist to drive power then you can afford to keep a foot planted.

If you are fighting against someone who does a lot of take downs, then foot planted will be a good choice, but only if you aren't driving power with your hips.  If you are fighting against someone who doesn't do a lot of take downs then you'll be fine using a lighter root, provided that the person doesn't sweep.

Foot down vs foot up is not an either or thing.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

Firstly some of you are not being polite, to someone new.
I turn my hips if I am doing a reverse punch.
*I was not taught to move my hips when doing a snap punch or jab*.
I was taught to get in quick make the punch then go to the next move or get out quick.
In fact, *in the beginning* I was taught to get in a back stance. Open my hand on top of my front leg, make the muscles as lose as possible and bring my hand up to my shoulder, then out making a hard fist at full extension, then relaxing bring the hand back to the shoulder.
The objective is developing speed. Snap punches or jabs are speed punches not power punches.
Later I was taught how to move to get in position to do the snap punch.
From the taekwondo schools I have visited ,they only use reverse punches, since you can't get a point for punches to the face.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 20, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> From the taekwondo schools I have visited ,they only use reverse punches, since you can't get a point for punches to the face.



You need to get out more. I've got rank in KKW, ITF and MDK TKD. MDK and ITF schools routinely punch to the head. KKW schools do too, if they're not limiting themselves to the tiny subset of TKD included in Olympic sparring.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> You need to get out more. I've got rank in KKW, ITF and MDK TKD. MDK and ITF schools routinely punch to the head. KKW schools do too, if they're not limiting themselves to the tiny subset of TKD included in Olympic sparring.


When I took MDK snap punches and back fist to the head was a good part of my training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.


If you are doing that, the jab has no power in it. Pivoting your foot or stepping with the jab is what gives it power. It doesn't take away the time it takes to punch either, but if you don't put at least some weight behind it, it won't even work as a distraction.

That's true in kempo, boxing and kickboxing, I can't imagine it's different for MMA.

If you've got 7 bucks, I would absolutely recommend this book. It's by my favorite boxer, so I might be biased, but everyone I've recommended reading it loved it, and learned a lot about how to improve their own boxing. 
https://www.amazon.com/Championship-Fighting-Explosive-Punching-Aggressive/dp/1501111485


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## amateur (Dec 20, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If you are doing that, the jab has no power in it. Pivoting your foot or stepping with the jab is what gives it power.



But the jab isn't supposed to be a powerful punch, honey. It's a speedy one intending to create distance. I know about adding a step for more power. But pivoting turns it into a left cross and hinders the cross punch in case you wanted to go for a jab/cross combo.

I'll put buying that book in my to do list.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> But the jab isn't supposed to be a powerful punch, honey. It's a speedy one intending to create distance. I know about adding a step for more power. But pivoting turns it into a left cross and hinders the cross punch in case you wanted to go for a jab/cross combo.
> 
> I'll put buying that book in my to do list.


Honey? That's an interesting one. 

And a jab can actually be either. But it still needs some power, otherwise people will just ignore it, and pivoting isn't taking away the speed. Also, pivoting actually helps out the jab cross combo-you pivot in the opposite way of throwing a cross, giving you more power when you turn into the cross.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If you are doing that, the jab has no power in it. Pivoting your foot or stepping with the jab is what gives it power. It doesn't take away the time it takes to punch either, but if you don't put at least some weight behind it, it won't even work as a distraction.
> 
> That's true in kempo, boxing and kickboxing, I can't imagine it's different for MMA.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the information about the book.

This is my experience it may be different than yours.
I agree you are not going to knock someone out with a snap punch.
I was taught to jump or step forward and *snap *punch.
Pivoting the foot and moving the hips and *reverse* punch.
Body positions when punch is made makes a difference in the power of the punch.
example: is he running into your punch or away from your punch.
I have broken a guy's nose stepping backwards panting my feet while he was moving forwards with a snap punch.
I have broken a board with my body stationary with a snap punch.
So I believe some power can be generated without body movement.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Honey? That's an interesting one.
> 
> And a jab can actually be either. But it still needs some power, otherwise people will just ignore it, and pivoting isn't taking away the speed. Also, pivoting actually helps out the jab cross combo-you pivot in the opposite way of throwing a cross, giving you more power when you turn into the cross.


If you watch this video, they're all either doing a step in or a slight pivot 



This guy does a really good job of explaining how I like to throw it


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you for the information about the book.
> 
> This is my experience it may be different than yours.
> I agree you are not going to knock someone out with a snap punch.
> ...


I agree stepping is the better option for a jab, vs. the pivot. But if your stationary when you throw it, there's no reason to use only your arm for it. Almost any jab I've seen, by someone good, has some weight in it too. 

I should also clarify, the pivot for a jab is very different than the pivot for a cross. The cross you are doing a very visible pivot, with the jab, it doesn't even have to be something people can see. It's about getting your body set up with just a bit extra power, and more importantly, setting it up so you can really get into that cross/reverse punch.

IMO that's also one of the things training in a horse stance teaches. That whole 'rubber band' snapping your hand back to chamber, is actually showing how to flow with your shoulders/hips from one punch to the next.


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## Martial D (Dec 20, 2018)

amateur said:


> Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.


It's only a left cross if you are standing southpaw. There is some contention over whether the term 'cross' refers to crossing the opponents guard or crossing your own body, but it is unanimous that it refers to a rear hand straight.

However, I do get your intention. You can fire a jab straight off the hip, or you can load it up by first retracting the forward hip and throwing it into the shot (stiff jab). Yet, if you are doing the first by just extending your arm,you are losing a lot of power. Both variations should start at the feet, not the shoulder.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2018)

amateur said:


> But the jab isn't supposed to be a powerful punch, honey. It's a speedy one intending to create distance.


I guess I'm doing it wrong because I don't throw my jabs with this understanding in mind.

For me Jabs are thrown with power and the benefit of a jab is a fast reload.  This way I can quickly hit my opponent hard multiple times. My jabs have to be hard enough to make my opponent want to open up to defend the jab.  If I want to create distance then it's better and faster that I use my feet to do so.  

The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back.  At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 21, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess I'm doing it wrong because I don't throw my jabs with this understanding in mind.
> 
> For me Jabs are thrown with power and the benefit of a jab is a fast reload.  This way I can quickly hit my opponent hard multiple times. My jabs have to be hard enough to make my opponent want to open up to defend the jab.  If I want to create distance then it's better and faster that I use my feet to do so.
> 
> The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back.  At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up.



I agree to have offensive power you need to move in.He is a beginner,  I think they have not gotten to the moving in part yet.
I like " The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back.  At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up."
I think they are teaching the jab as a defensive punch as you move away from your opponent.
Much like how I was  taught blocks before learning punches.


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## Tez3 (Dec 21, 2018)

amateur said:


> Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.




I think perhaps you either need a new instructor or stop reading comments on YouTube. I would stop calling people 'honey' too.

When you say MMA bear in mind what it actually is especially the first word, fighters will use techniques that work for them not a one size for all punch. The fact you can use different styles strikes is what appeals to many rather than the traditional everyone does exactly the same punch in exactly the same way regardless of your size. So in MMA is is not what you think it is, some fighters might do it that way but it does not mean it is an 'MMA punch'.


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If you've got 7 bucks, I would absolutely recommend this book. It's by my favorite boxer, so I might be biased, but everyone I've recommended reading it loved it, and learned a lot about how to improve their own boxing.
> https://www.amazon.com/Championship-Fighting-Explosive-Punching-Aggressive/dp/1501111485


I met one of Dempsey's relatives last year.  He's an insurance agent in my area.  After we were done with the insurance thing I asked him about his name.  Yup.  Sure enough.  Kinda fun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It's only a left cross if you are standing southpaw. There is some contention over whether the term 'cross' refers to crossing the opponents guard or crossing your own body, but it is unanimous that it refers to a rear hand straight.


Terms evolve over time.  In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).

The Cross Counter

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Danny T (Dec 21, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If you watch this video, they're all either doing a step in or a slight pivot
> 
> 
> 
> This guy does a really good job of explaining how I like to throw it


Mervin Cook, excellent boxing coach.

The thing about boxing form/structure is its designed for boxing where elbow, knee, and kick attacks aren’t a concern. A lot of the foot positioning exposes the legs for kick attacks or leg takedowns.


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## Yokozuna514 (Dec 21, 2018)

To me this is actually a serious issue that requires proper instruction in the context of the MA you are pursuing.   Even if we all could agree on when, where and how to pivot, it is important for an instructor to WATCH you do it so that you do it correctly and without risk of injuring your joints.   No book or video can ever replace human feedback.


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## Martial D (Dec 21, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Terms evolve over time.  In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).
> 
> The Cross Counter
> 
> ...


That's..interesting. Lead hand cross you say? Do you have a source for that that's not an opinion peice written by you? This would certainly be new to me.


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## Danny T (Dec 21, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Terms evolve over time.  In "the old days" it was a single-time counter which crossed over your opponent's straight (usually a lead straight).
> 
> The Cross Counter
> 
> ...


Yep...that's what was taught to me in my early boxing back in the mid 60s. 
There was a lead cross as well as a rear cross. It was a countering punch that 'crossed' the opponent's punch.


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## lklawson (Dec 21, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That's..interesting. Lead hand cross you say? Do you have a source for that that's not an opinion peice written by you? This would certainly be new to me.


You mean other than the four of them that I already reference in the article?  Sure.  There are any number of others, but they're all the same, really with a few variations such as passing over the opposite shoulder or cross-countering with an upper cut instead of a hook.




Edwards Cross Counter by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community




Davies - Avoiding right lead and cross countering with the left by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community




Corbet - Crossing on the jaw by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community




19496 by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community





Davies - Avoiding a right lead and cross countering with right upper cut by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community




Davies - Avoiding a left lead at head and cross countering with right upper cut by lklawson on MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I agree to have offensive power you need to move in.He is a beginner,  I think they have not gotten to the moving in part yet.
> I like " The only distance my jab should create is the distance caused my by opponents head snapping back.  At a minimum, my jab should disrupt my opponent or open him / her up."
> I think they are teaching the jab as a defensive punch as you move away from your opponent.
> Much like how I was  taught blocks before learning punches.


Good point.  Beginners often get spoon fed which is the correct thing to do.  I knew very little as a beginner.  These days, I'm always learning that I don't know as much as I thought I did.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> To me this is actually a serious issue that requires proper instruction in the context of the MA you are pursuing.   Even if we all could agree on when, where and how to pivot, it is important for an instructor to WATCH you do it so that you do it correctly and without risk of injuring your joints.   No book or video can ever replace human feedback.


Agree 100% A lot of the times it's the smallest of things done incorrectly that causes the most harm to one's body.

Having someone to spot and correct those small things is critical.  I won't happen without feedback.


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## Ivan (Dec 21, 2018)

It depends on your reason to pivot. For punching, it will generate a bigger amount of speed and power than if you didn't pivot. However, imagine you're boxing and throw a double jab/lead hand. If you pivot your front foot on your first jab, like you'd be used to doing if you've been boxing for a while, then your second jab will be weak and have shorter range. What the comment was referring too is that you can also generate more power in your punches by stepping forward, which is a better alternative to pivoting when throwing multiple consecutive shots with the same hand. Connor McGregor also chooses to step forward instead of pivot almos 90% of the time.

Next come kicks; though some aren't aware of this, I wasn't until 3 months ago, in many kicks you can pivot too. You can pivot your support leg on a front kick with the heel moving inwards as you kick, although this isn't for power or speed, but rather for the fact that if you don't pivot it can lead to knee injuries and problems which are very common in Tae Kwon Do and other mainly kicking based martial arts.

Lastly, another thing to consider when pivoting your feet, is that if your opponent uses and oblique kick while you do so, you'll most likely be kissing your kneecaps goodbye which could be another reason why the person in the comment claims you should avoid pivoting. Personally, I only pivot in sparring where we don't allow oblique kicks (I spar in Tae Kwon Do and Boxing), however I would probably try to avoid doing so if I got into an altercation outside of a controlled environment.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 21, 2018)

I havent been told to pivot for generating power.  I personally don't do it anyway, kicking sometimes requires you to pivot the foot not kicking to actually perform some kicks. (which i for some reason cant do reversed for side/round kicks right)

Personally i went down the thinking the most powerful punch you can do includes you stepping forwards and rotating your hip and snapping your arm/wrist.   If thats true or not [insert shrug here]    

Given i cant currently pivot my weak foot to support using my right leg well i doubt i could utilize it anyway without some time trying to get ambidextrous in movements.

Addendum:   I usually take up a guard stance, which is right foot forward (or left pending dominance and if you are planning to kick a lot or not) and left foot 45 degree's pointed away.  Which may or may not count as pivoting a foot.



kempodisciple said:


> If you've got 7 bucks,



Its now on my list as well.       Also i dont comprehend the jab as a weaker punch, its just a left handed straight, like a cross is a right handed straight. (other than it being my weaker hand anyway)


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## amateur (Dec 21, 2018)

Your advice is interesting. I'll try some twisting jabs. But don't think that the 'non twisting jab' concept is something that a beginner like me pulled out of his butt. I've been taught it. And if you don't believe me, believe the guys in those videos. And, before you get me started with 'duh, youtube videos are useless, listen only to experts', mind that the guys in those videos are experts indeed.





 (1.15-1.35)





 (1.28-1.55)


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 21, 2018)

amateur said:


> mind that the guys in those videos are experts indeed.


If they are experts then I'm a Real Life Kick A$$ Kung Fu Master.

I'm not saying this to be mean, but I've seen their videos and they seem to be the types who would never claim to be experts.  They will tell probably tell you that they know some stuff, but I have never heard them claim that they are experts.

Expert is far above where they are teaching.  You can know a lot of things and know  what you are talking about and still not be an expert.  That's where these guys are.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 21, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Mervin Cook, excellent boxing coach.
> 
> The thing about boxing form/structure is its designed for boxing where elbow, knee, and kick attacks aren’t a concern. A lot of the foot positioning exposes the legs for kick attacks or leg takedowns.


Yeah, I'm definitely a fan of him. I never noticed that issue, but most of the people I trained with when we would do 'mma' sparring were judoka, who didn't do many leg takedowns, and not a whole lot of leg kicks. So that might be why.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 21, 2018)

amateur said:


> Your advice is interesting. I'll try some twisting jabs. But don't think that the 'non twisting jab' concept is something that a beginner like me pulled out of his butt. I've been taught it. And if you don't believe me, believe the guys in those videos. And, before you get me started with 'duh, youtube videos are useless, listen only to experts', mind that the guys in those videos are experts indeed.



I'm not going to comment on your bodily orifices; what you do with them doesn't concern me in the least, so long as it doesn't bring you into my ER.
However... both of those people are twisting on the jab. Not a great deal, and I will agree that OVER rotation is a bad thing. But they're twisting.
As for them being experts.... I don't know. I don't see anything in those videos to me think they're experts. Just putting "expert" in the name of the gym doesn't really count.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2018)

Just putting this here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2018)

amateur said:


> I know what you mean!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A jab can be executed as just an arm-powered punch (what you describe as "arm extension"), but it can also be powered by legs and body. This gets back to a prior poster's reference to the circumstances mattering. I can throw that jab with minimal power for a number of reasons. I can also deliver significant power in that jab if I want. It just depends.

Interestingly, a similar range applies to the cross (rear straight), though there are very few occasions where I'd choose to deliver it without body and/or leg power behind it (mostly, as weak feints to set something else up).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 22, 2018)

amateur said:


> Maybe 'jab' is something different at other styles, but, at MMA, it is just a quick arm extension. If you add pivoting, it's a left cross. Maybe that's what you perceive as 'jab'. It's not a bad technique, but it's not what I meant when I said 'jab'.


It sounds like your coach is using some terms in an unusual way. That can make discussion with others more complicated (though it doesn't necessarily say anything about their ability to coach you). Most folks use the term "jab" to refer to a forward-arm straight punch.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That can make discussion with others more complicated (though it doesn't necessarily say anything about their ability to coach you).




It may not say anything about their ability to coach but really we are all thinking it.


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