# Balintawak Grouping Systems



## lightninghands (Aug 31, 2006)

Helo Guys,
I was wondering if anybody can give me detail on the 5 Grouping system.


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## soncen (Sep 16, 2006)

lightninghands said:


> Helo Guys,
> I was wondering if anybody can give me detail on the 5 Grouping system.


Hello Mr. Lightninghand,

I want to give you some of the detail of the five Basic Forms on Grouping!!!​ 
But first, let me clarify to you something. Grandmaster Teofilo A. Velez contrary to what had been published by some writers was first conceptualized the Grouping of moves. He discovered that the easiest and the best way for the student to quickly absorb and understand the lesson is to guide him through grouping of moves and responses from attacks on varied angle situations. Being the dummy/opponent, the Instructor will create a fight situation such as stick-arm seizing, holds and controlled hitting to develop instinct reaction on the part of student, guiding him to loosen the holds by way of lifting opponents arm wrist, remove obstacles by uncovering opponents blocks, dejection of stick arm with simultaneous blow strikes on his retaliation. The student also developed technique when to execute bobbing and weaving, hip and shoulder twisting to evade strikes, slumping or fading away and leaning to the right or leaning to the left. There were around twenty-five basic moves to be mastered in this drill exercises. The student has to be reminded that every opponent is very dangerous so that every time he face his Instructor in the training, the student must threat them as a real enemy and must have to take into consideration all figure of action as real life threatening situation. The student must apply the correct and proper execution on the basic moves on varied responses and the projection or anticipation of counter responses on every recurring situation. 

The move was clustered into five grouping figures and the series was to be taught first in a slow motion and from time to time guide the student and make some correction once the exact form was not properly executed. The mechanics on applying the figures is first to be done in the basic form and in a slow motion to easily guide the student on the proper execution on how and when it is to be delivered. The drill is to be repeated over and over again until it would be implanted on the muscle memory of the student. Constant repetition would be a good exercise until he will get use of it and he will develop good reflexes, quick responses, speed and stamina. However, the student will just wait for the Instructor when to initiate and feed for him the grouping figures while at the at random drill exercise (palakaw) or _corridas_. The signal for execution of the grouping figure is that when the Instructor grasps and hold to immobilize the students stick-hand either with the Instructors empty hand or of his own stick-arm and that is the time the student move to apply the grouping of moves to free himself from the clutches of the opponent. 

Be reminded that retaliation blows were to be in controlled manner although the Instructor has to block and take the defense for himself. But the Instructor is not always aware of his own defense because his concern was focused on guiding the student. Sometime some wild blows would hit him but that was only a part of the risk he is going to take as an Instructor.
​*Grope # 1*  is a four-count move action figure putting the student under the situation of its opponents control by clutching the arm of the student while in the act of attacking? Let the student loosen the grip by its empty hand to push through its second offense. The instructor blocks this move in the second time, checking its cane down and let the student clear the way for his third attacking motion to the rib cage. This time, the instructor blocked the students offense using his cane in a vertical position. The student pushed the cane, which was blocking and executes his fourth offense on the way to its opponents head. The instructor aborted the move and continue to play the at random order. 

*Grope # 2*  is a series of three offensive action move initiated by the instructor directing to the chest, the forehead and the hipbone by an arnis butt stroke while controlling the students cane with its empty hand. The student blocked this simultaneous attack in three-action move loosening its controlled cane by grasping the arm pulling it up at the same time deliver the blow on the rib cage of the opponent. The instructor blocked this offense with his cane in this action and let the student push the blocking position down and for the second time let him deliver the blow on the head. Exercise the move by doing it over and over again and continue the play of the at random figure.

*Grope # 3*  is a move grasping the arm of the student at the same time applies the thrust on the navel, the chest and the face. Checked the body movements and the blocking form weather the rod is in the vertical position and of the correct execution of its retaliation blows.

*Grope # 4*  is a move attacking the student with left and right blows on the head, guiding him to block and push the opponents arm to clear the way for its return offense.


_*Grope # 5*_  is a two separate action figure. The starting move was to grasp the students cane while in the at random play, controlling it over the top of its arm situation by the opponents cane at the same time jab him off with a fist blow on the face, butting its chest, the forehead and the hipbone simultaneously. Let the student parry, blocked and evade in a triple action move. Loosen its controlled cane pulling up the opponents arm and deliver a blow on the rib cage, the instructor blocked this move by its cane in a vertical position and let the student pushed it down and deliver his last offense move on the head in this action figure. The instructor applies the _pakgang_ system in this bit of action, to distract the students attention and to test his focus of concentration of the lessons figure, guiding him of the correct execution and of his retaliation blows. In the second figure of action is a reverse move from the first action figure. 

*Note:* _The lessons in basic grouping figures are to be learned only on actual and personal one-to-one instruction where a qualified Instructor has to guide the student to see to it that the exact execution and application of correct moves is properly delivered._

I hope this will help you. But if you really want to experience in actual personalized training, you can visit us in our club gymnasium in Basak North road, Mandaue City, Cebu, Philippines.


Respectfully,

Wilson R. Ceniza


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## manhattan1 (May 23, 2009)

lightninghands said:


> Helo Guys,
> I was wondering if anybody can give me detail on the 5 Grouping system.



GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin made the first Grouping System, later GM. Velez made a Grouping System of his own, but not the same as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach. GM. Velez did never complete his studies within Villasin Balintawak, so he could not know the same grouping system as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach according to GM. John Villasin (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin).
You can see a simple youtube video of it here:






Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## Rich Parsons (May 23, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin made the first Grouping System, later GM. Velez made a Grouping System of his own, but not the same as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach. GM. Velez did never complete his studies within Villasin Balintawak, so he could not know the same grouping system as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach according to GM. John Villasin (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin).
> You can see a simple youtube video of it here:
> 
> 
> ...




Question?

What about other people who were alive at the time period?

Do their comments matter?


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## arnisador (May 23, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> You can see a simple youtube video of it here:



Thanks!


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## fangjian (May 23, 2009)

Aw Jeez. Here we go.


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## manhattan1 (May 23, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> Question?
> 
> What about other people who were alive at the time period?
> 
> Do their comments matter?



Yes, they do and most of them will tell you that GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin made the Grouping System.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## manhattan1 (May 23, 2009)

Since we are talking about other people then lets quote some, this is from Sam Buot's Website:



			
				http://www.buot.net/History/jose-villasin.html said:
			
		

> Jose Villasin (deceased) was a lawyer and labor leader. He and his wife Juliana had fourteen children, only four of who were boys, two of who are surviving, Joey and John. As a lawyer and officer of the Allied Labor Union, laborers respected his intellectual skills but dockhands also understood force, might and physical violence.
> Villasin taught _eskrima _and martial arts at the University of the Visayas. He tried to organize his course by making mimeographed notes for his students. Thus, this attempt to organize the thought process of the Grandmaster: by dissecting and breaking down the art into understandable and digestible morsels for beginners. It was an outline with sketchy descriptions of moves. Incorporating it in demonstrations, varied the demonstrations to make it more exciting, appealing and less monotonous. It was under the personalized tutelage of Joe Villasin that the author had a quick start and understanding of the basics, intermediate and advanced studies of _eskrima_. Villasins study simplified the lessons for faster  understanding.



He says GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did make the Grouping System, besides that he also mention something about the children of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and very similar to what GM. John Villasin, my self and GM. John's sister Telling did say....  
Next is something from Visayan Martial Arts, who according to their website teaches [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Balintawak as taught by Teofilo A. Velez and          the method of instruction of Timoteo Maranga's form of Balintawak:

[/FONT]


			
				http://www.visayanmartialarts.com/balintawakarnisescrima.htm said:
			
		

> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]One of Venancios          successors to Balintawak was a Lawyer calle[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]d* 'Attorney          Jose Villasin'*.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]He set about to systemise          and group the style into its various categories so that his          students could master one set of related techniques and then move onto          the next set of related techniques. This is the juncture where several          distinct schools of B[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]alintawak          emerged. Many of Venancios Balintawak students and some of Venancios          and the Saavedra's older Doce Pares students continued to teach in the          old style of random instruction, while Attorney Villasins family          and close friends/students used his unique grouping method.[/FONT]​
> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some instructors from          the different instructional styles state the grouped method is modified          Balintawak. This is not so. The techniques and principles of Grouped Balintawak          have not been made different in form, restricted, varied, or limited in          any matter and have been observed to be still, all the same. It is simply          the method of teaching that has been examined and refined.          Even [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]some          older Doce Pares Grandmasters (whom we have had the privilege to have          trained with), whose lineage comes from Bacon and/or the Saavederas all          have the same style and moves, (if their instructor had any length or          high degree of training) but they simply do not have the same teaching          system.[/FONT][/FONT]



Even that they teach GM. Velez's style they also seem to know that GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin made the grouping system.... 
Its the same thing i hear from many people down here in Cebu, where i live.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 26, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> GM. Velez did never complete his studies within Villasin Balintawak, so he could not know the same grouping system as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach according to GM. John Villasin (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin).


 
This sounds odd.  Could you elaborate?


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## manhattan1 (May 26, 2009)

fangjian said:


> This sounds odd.  Could you elaborate?



Well it is kind of what it says, that GM. Velez is not teaching the Villasin Grouping System (because he did not learn it), but his own grouping system and its different from ours......

Here you can see ours: 




And i guess this is Teovels with Master Monie Velez: http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 26, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Well it is kind of what it says, that GM. Velez is not teaching the Villasin Grouping System (because he did not learn it), but his own grouping system and its different from ours......
> 
> Here you can see ours:
> 
> ...


 It says GM Velez never completed his studies with Atty Villasin.  What do you mean?


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## manhattan1 (May 26, 2009)

fangjian said:


> It says GM Velez never completed his studies with Atty Villasin.  What do you mean?



Yes, GM. Velez never learned the Villasin Balintawak style according to GM. John Villasin.....

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 26, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Yes, GM. Velez never learned the Villasin Balintawak style according to GM. John Villasin.....
> 
> Sincerly yours,
> 
> ...


 
So GM Velez did not learn Villasin Balintawak from Atty Villasin but he learned Balintawak from him?


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## manhattan1 (May 26, 2009)

fangjian said:


> So GM Velez did not learn Villasin Balintawak from Atty Villasin but he learned Balintawak from him?



Yes, he did learn Balintawak from GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and maybe small parts of the Villasin style.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## Robert Klampfer (May 28, 2009)

fangjian said:


> So GM Velez did not learn Villasin Balintawak from Atty Villasin but he learned Balintawak from him?



Don't you just love the circular argument?  Me too.  So, it's at this point that I'm going to throw the flag... :bs1:

Robert


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## manhattan1 (May 28, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Don't you just love the circular argument?  Me too.  So, it's at this point that I'm going to throw the flag... :bs1:
> 
> Robert



Maybe you can explain what it is you _throw_ a flag at.....?

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## Robert Klampfer (May 28, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Maybe you can explain what it is you _throw_ a flag at.....?



No, I don't think I need to.  Besides, it would only lead to another circular argument or yet another "according to John Villasin" statement.

Robert


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## fangjian (May 28, 2009)

I think the problem is you are not offering a lot of information.  

For example, if I said to you 
'Teofilo Velez created the groupings '.  
You would probably say 'WHAT. I've never heard that.  Could you explain?'  
Then I would explain the story, and then you should say 
"Hmm interesting. Thanks.'  (or something like that)

When you say something like 
'GM Teofilo Velez didn't complete his studies in Villasin Balintawak'.  It makes us say
'WHAT I've never heard that. Could you explain?'

You have not explained anything, and those of us who go on these forums are very interested in learning and sharing information.  So if you know more about this we'd love to hear it.


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## manhattan1 (May 28, 2009)

fangjian said:


> 'GM Teofilo Velez didn't complete his studies in Villasin Balintawak'.  It makes us say
> 'WHAT I've never heard that. Could you explain?'.



First of if GM. Velez did learn his Grouping System from GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin then why is our Grouping Systems not the same and why does he not have any proof of ever completed the Villasin Style under GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin?

I think when a Grandmaster within a style like GM. John Villasin says that GM. Velez did not learn the complete Villasin Style, its up to GM. Velez (or his people) to prove his/their claims..... 

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 29, 2009)

Just forget it.


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## Robert Klampfer (May 29, 2009)

fangjian said:


> Just forget it.



That's a *very* good idea.

Jan - you are going to find yourself in some very serious trouble in Cebu if you carry on with statements like that.  That's a fact.

Robert


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## manhattan1 (May 29, 2009)

fangjian said:


> Just forget it.



Thats a shame because i kind of like a answer to some of my questions above, there is some very good reasons GM. Velez dont know Villasin Balintawak:

1. Villasin Balintawak's Grandmaster says GM. Velez does not know it
2. GM. Velez does not move like us
3. GM. Velez does not use the same Grouping System as us
4. GM. Velez has no proof or instructor certificate within the Villasin style

Now if you even after i did explain it above think he still knows our style and its up to us to prove he does not, then i guess i am a instructor within both Nickelstick and Teovels Balintawak, which i have tried before and i do also apply with the things above, then i guess its up to both Nickelstick and Teovels Balintawak to prove i am not a instructor from that logic, right?

I hope you can see that makes no sense at all, it can never be the style or Grandmaster who has to prove that former students are not instructors that is why we give instructor certificates and in general most instructors within a style they very often do know the movement and get back-up by the Grandmaster/instructors within the system....
This is not the case here.....

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## manhattan1 (May 29, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> That's a *very* good idea.
> 
> Jan - you are going to find yourself in some very serious trouble in Cebu if you carry on with statements like that.  That's a fact.
> 
> Robert



Sure....Robert try to live down here a few years and then maybe you will learn something.... 

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## Robert Klampfer (May 29, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure....Robert try to live down here a few years and then maybe you will learn something....



Say what you will but, you can't say I didn't warn you.

Robert


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## manhattan1 (May 29, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Say what you will but, you can't say I didn't warn you.
> 
> Robert



Since you are a Teovels guy your self Robert you might not like the idea of what i said above regarding GM. Velez, but i cant see why you can not just answer my post directly instead of coming with childish things like in the last two posts, i did really think you where better then that..... 

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## Robert Klampfer (May 29, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> 4. GM. Velez has no proof or instructor certificate within the Villasin style
> 
> ...that is why we give instructor certificateshttp://www.fma-arnis.dk/



Certificates of any kind in Balintawak are a modern innovation.  There were no certificates or titles during Anciong Bacon's time.  Neither Jose Villasin nor Teofilo Velez would have received a certificate from Anciong Bacon.  They in turn didn't give certificates to any of their students who are currently recognized master instructors.  Most Balintawak groups still don't have any form of certificates today.  So of course Teofilo Velez wouldn't have an instructor's certificate -- they didn't exist back then.  This is all very common knowledge, which I'm surprised that you wouldn't know.

Besides, the whole argument is a moot point.  There was no "Villasin style" or "Velez style" back then.  There was only Balintawak and everyone trained together.  The entire notion that Velez didn't know "Villasin style" or was taught some alternative version is ridiculous.

Robert


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## Robert Klampfer (May 29, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Since you are a Teovels guy your self...



Actually, I'm not affiliated with Teovels.  I was/am taught by Bobby Taboada and I consider myself Balintawak.  Period.  I only choose one side when I feel that I'm compelled to.  I thought that would have been evident when I disagreed with the notion that Teofilo Velez instead of Jose Villasin was the creator of the grouped method of teaching.

Regardless of our differences on any particular topic, if you're right about something else, I'll support you 100%.  However, on the topic at hand, you're wrong.

Robert


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## fangjian (May 29, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> 1. Villasin Balintawak's Grandmaster says GM. Velez does not know it
> 2. GM. Velez does not move like us
> 3. GM. Velez does not use the same Grouping System as us
> 4. GM. Velez has no proof or instructor certificate within the Villasin style


 
1.Interesting
2.Could you explain?
3.Could you explain?
4.Irrelevant

Could you please explain 2 and 3.  Thanks in advance.


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## free2flow (May 29, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Say what you will but, you can't say I didn't warn you.





Robert Klampfer said:


> Robert


 



manhattan1 said:


> Since you are a Teovels guy your self Robert you might not like the idea of what i said above regarding GM. Velez, but i cant see why you can not just answer my post directly instead of coming with childish things like in the last two posts, i did really think you where better then that.....





manhattan1 said:


> Sincerly yours,
> 
> Jan Jensen
> http://www.fma-arnis.dk


Jan, seriously please give Robert's advice some thoughts. You're really asking for trouble and may end-up dragging other people as well into the mess.


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## manhattan1 (May 29, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Besides, the whole argument is a moot point.  There was no "Villasin style" or "Velez style" back then.  There was only Balintawak and everyone trained together.  The entire notion that Velez didn't know "Villasin style" or was taught some alternative version is ridiculous.
> 
> Robert



Then i am right because the Villasin style came later as you say above (its you own words), GM. Velez was trained within Balintawak by GM. Bacon and GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin.....

This also explains why:
1. Villasin Balintawak's Grandmaster says GM. Velez does not know it
2. GM. Velez does not move like us
3. GM. Velez does not use the same Grouping System as us  

Besides i did never say that they did hand out instructor certificates back then, i wrote:  _"no proof or"_ There is a difference, besides i think 1, 2 and 3 is more relevant so i find it odd you only focus on point 4.....

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## manhattan1 (May 29, 2009)

fangjian said:


> 1.Interesting
> 2.Could you explain?
> 3.Could you explain?
> 4.Irrelevant
> ...



Sure lets take number 2, here is some video clip with Master Monie Velez from Teovels Balintawak:

http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK

Now if you look at how they move in _the play_ and compare it to how GM. John Villasin and i move in _the play_ in the video clip below, you will be able to see a difference:






With number 3, if you look at their _grouping system_ (see videos below), again you will be able to see a difference:

http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK

Here you can compare with ours: 






Besides Roberts statement above explains why there are these differences and why GM. John Villasin says GM. Velez dont know our style...
Because its true.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure lets take number 2, here is some video clip with Master Monie Velez from Teovels Balintawak:
> 
> http://www.fma-arnis.dk/MASTER_MONIE_VELEZ_AND_TEOVEL_BALINTAWAK
> 
> ...


 
There are a near infinite way to express these groupings.  It is not very important in what way the teacher expresses the ideas to a beginning student.

As to the way they move and the way you move.  There will of course be a difference.  Different flavors to take advantage of your strengths and hide your weaknesses.


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## fangjian (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Then i am right because the Villasin style came later as you say above (its you own words), GM. Velez was trained within Balintawak by GM. Bacon and GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin.....


 
Are......you....... serious?  You could have simply said that to begin with.  I had a feeling you would come back in the end with that answer.


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## manhattan1 (May 30, 2009)

fangjian said:


> There are a near infinite way to express these groupings.  It is not very important in what way the teacher expresses the ideas to a beginning student.
> 
> As to the way they move and the way you move.  There will of course be a difference.  Different flavors to take advantage of your strengths and hide your weaknesses.



Sure, but they are still different just like GM. John Villasin said and Roberts comment here: 



Robert Klampfer said:


> Besides, the whole argument is a moot point. There was no "Villasin style" or "Velez style" back then. There was only Balintawak and everyone trained together. The entire notion that Velez didn't know "Villasin style" or was taught some alternative version is ridiculous.
> 
> Robert



Just shows as i said earlier that it was Balintawak and not Villasin Balintawak GM. Velez did learn, our styles are different and even many beginners can see that.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## manhattan1 (May 30, 2009)

fangjian said:


> Are......you....... serious?  You could have simply said that to begin with.  I had a feeling you would come back in the end with that answer.



Before Robert was "throwing the flag", i said: 



			
				manhattan1 said:
			
		

> Yes, he did learn Balintawak from GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and maybe small parts of the Villasin style....
> 
> Sincerly yours,
> 
> ...



That i said to you and the reason i said _and maybe small parts of the Villasin Style_ is i dont know if GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin was working on it at the time.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


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## fangjian (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> That i said to you and the reason i said _and maybe small parts of the Villasin Style_ is i dont know if GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin was working on it at the time....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Fair enough. Like I said before, we are all interested in sharing and 
learning.  So let's hear about this Villasin Balintawak and how it differs from Balintawak.


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## chris arena (May 30, 2009)

Aaaaaarrrgghh!

Chris A.


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## Robert Klampfer (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure lets take number 2, here is some video clip with Master Monie Velez from Teovels Balintawak...
> 
> Now if you look at how they move in _the play_ and compare it to how GM. John Villasin and i move in _the play_ in the video clip below, you will be able to see a difference.



Wait, wait , wait -- you were initially talking about *Teofilo* Velez and *Jose* Villasin.  Why did this suddenly segue to *Monie* Velez and *John* Villasin?



manhattan1 said:


> Sure, but they are still different just like GM. John Villasin said and Roberts comment here...
> 
> Just shows as i said earlier that it was Balintawak and not Villasin Balintawak GM. Velez did learn, our styles are different and even many beginners can see that....



From everything I've seen in the videos you've presented, I see nothing that shows a "Villasin style" that's a significant difference from or innovative compared to the grouped method that everyone else does, which is the grouped method from Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez.  Changing the sequence of or adding/deleting a movement here or there in the grouping system does not in any way constitute some arcane or secret knowledge; and certainly not as an entirely new system of Balintawak.  There is no hidden "ninja lore" in Balintawak and we don't keep secrets.  Everyone has different variations that they use.  The grouping system is a training method, not a fighting method or specific set of techniques.  So long as the concepts are the same, the specific sequence of movements are largely irrelevant.  It's a means to an end.  This has already been discussed several times.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been training with John Villasin?



chris arena said:


> Aaaaaarrrgghh!



Uh... care to elaborate on that, Chris?  

Robert


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## arnisador (May 30, 2009)

chris arena said:


> Aaaaaarrrgghh!



Agreed!


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## manhattan1 (May 30, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> From everything I've seen in the videos you've presented, I see nothing that shows a "Villasin style" that's a significant difference from or innovative compared to the grouped method that everyone else does, which is the grouped method from Jose Villasin and Teofilo Velez.  Changing the sequence of or adding/deleting a movement here or there in the grouping system does not in any way constitute some arcane or secret knowledge; and certainly not as an entirely new system of Balintawak.  There is no hidden "ninja lore" in Balintawak and we don't keep secrets.  Everyone has different variations that they use.  The grouping system is a training method, not a fighting method or specific set of techniques.  So long as the concepts are the same, the specific sequence of movements are largely irrelevant.  It's a means to an end.  This has already been discussed several times.
> 
> Out of curiosity, how long have you been training with John Villasin?



Sure....You dont see a difference but people with much better skills then yours like GM. John Villasin does see the difference and so do i and even some beginners....
I wonder what that says about your skills....

I been training with him long enough to be within the advanced and teaching students (learning how to teach), the last step before instructor.....

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## rompida (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure....You dont see a difference but people with much better skills then yours like GM. John Villasin does see the difference and so do i and even some beginners....
> I wonder what that says about your skills....
> 
> I been training with him long enough to be within the advanced and teaching students (learning how to teach), the last step before instructor.....
> ...




How about some specifics there Jan?  How many years have you been learning Villasin Balintawak? How many months/years did it take for you to be able to tell the difference?  a year, 5 years, 10 years?

Other than these small differences in the grouping system, how is Villasin Balintawak you are learning different from Balintawak as practiced by the rest?

I'm pushing this, because you continue to speak in as vague of generalities as possible.  Time to bring some fruit to the table.


----------



## Robert Klampfer (May 30, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure....You dont see a difference but people with much better skills then yours like GM. John Villasin does see the difference and so do i and even some beginners....
> I wonder what that says about your skills....



Now why did you have to go and say something like that?  You don't know me so, I don't take it too personally.  However, since you did post it in a public venue I must ask if you would make the same statements or question me in that manner if I were standing in front of you?  If not, you're being terribly impolite.



manhattan1 said:


> I been training with him long enough to be within the advanced and teaching students (learning how to teach), the last step before instructor.....



I thought I was the one who was childish?  You're encroaching on my gig.

Ok then, I'll rephrase -- how long does it take to reach "the advanced" and teach students?

Robert


----------



## fangjian (May 30, 2009)

> Sure....You dont see a difference but people with much better skills then yours like GM. John Villasin does see the difference and so do i and even some beginners....
> I wonder what that says about your skills....


 
When you read Robert's earlier posts, you should be able to tell he is only trying to help you.  So this is uncalled for.

Earlier in the posts you said; 


> I think when a Grandmaster within a style like GM. John Villasin says that GM. Velez did not learn the complete Villasin Style, its up to GM. Velez (or his people) to prove his/their claims.....


 
...and we tried to end the thread right there and save you, when we said... 'just forget it'.   However it continued despite our attempts at throwing a rope down the hole you have dug for yourself.  

Now, this thread is not about sharing or learning, and is more for amusement which is unfortunate.

I am thinking that you heard your teacher say something that you thought was interesting ( like maybe 'Villasin Balintawak is this and that and whatever').  Then you tried to sound smart on these forums with a few comments.  Then we, over here, are interested in your comments and ask you to tell us about it, but you can not, because your own understanding of the material is limited.


----------



## Robert Klampfer (May 30, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Agreed!


But your morbid curiosity just won't let you tear yourself away!  opcorn:
Robert


----------



## manhattan1 (May 30, 2009)

Manhattan1 said:
			
		

> I think when a Grandmaster within a style like GM. John Villasin says that GM. Velez did not learn the complete Villasin Style, its up to GM. Velez (or his people) to prove his/their claims.....



I was saying that because i as said in a earlier post was thinking that maybe GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin was working on his style at the time and sharing parts of it with GM. Velez....
I am not just getting this out of the thin air, many big names backs me up on that there is a difference between the styles as said before.... 

Yes, Robert i would have said the same in person, the only difference is i would have been able to back it up also....I dont know if what i said is more rude then what you guys have said to me all the time without knowing me.......
How long it takes to reach advanced within the Villasin style is different from student to student, depends on when they have learned the skills it takes and GM. John Villasin jugdes when that is.....

But since the events has taken this kind of a turn, i cant really see the need to keep talking anymore....
So before i or you guys get a new warning from Admin i will just end it here.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## fangjian (May 31, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> I was saying that because i as said in a earlier post was thinking that maybe GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin was working on his style at the time and sharing parts of it with GM. Velez....
> I am not just getting this out of the thin air, many big names backs me up on that there is a difference between the styles as said before....


 Oh well.  I really was interested in what you had to say about this.  I think I remember you mentioning on FMAtalk, your teacher didn't want you to talk about it online.  I will now assume that is why you are reluctant then.  That's fine.  I guess don't bother to speak about something if you can not. Otherwise this happens;

_Jan_-"Hey everyone. I heard something really interesting about the history and evolution of Balintawak"
_Everyone_-"Cool.  Tell us about it"
_Jan_-"No"
_Everyone_-"Ummm...........Ok...."


----------



## olivereskrima (May 31, 2009)

*Jan Jensen*, please refrain from giving direct conclusion about the origin of the Teaching methods of Balintawak Grouping system. If you want to know you can talk to the Velez Brothers. You can find Master Monie Velez at the Ayala ground every Sunday from 7 am to 12 noon. Don't just jump to conclusion by hearing John Villasin side only, try to reach out some sources around you.

Thank you so much and God bless.

Oliver



manhattan1 said:


> GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin made the first Grouping System, later GM. Velez made a Grouping System of his own, but not the same as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach. GM. Velez did never complete his studies within Villasin Balintawak, so he could not know the same grouping system as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach according to GM. John Villasin (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin).
> You can see a simple youtube video of it here:
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Robert Klampfer (May 31, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Yes, Robert i would have said the same in person, the only difference is i would have been able to back it up also....



:lfao:



manhattan1 said:


> How long it takes to reach advanced within the Villasin style is different from student to student, depends on when they have learned the skills it takes and GM. John Villasin jugdes when that is.....



So again I rephrase: how long did it take for John Villasin to declare you as being advanced?  You're presenting yourself as some kind of authority on the subjects at hand so, how about you present your credentials since nobody here knows you?

You seem to be very comfortable speaking on behalf of John Villasin.  Is he specifically aware of your statements here?  Does he approve?



manhattan1 said:


> But since the events has taken this kind of a turn, i cant really see the need to keep talking anymore....



Things have only gone where you've led them.  We tried to warn you but, you persisted.  Now, you've incurred certain... "obligations"... for yourself and John Villasin, whether you know it, accept it, or not.

Robert


----------



## fangjian (Jun 1, 2009)

Since this thread is about groupings.  Has anyone who has learned through the grouped method attempted to teach Balintawak ungrouped?  Was it difficult, easy etc.?


----------



## Robert Klampfer (Jun 1, 2009)

fangjian said:


> Has anyone who has learned through the grouped method attempted to teach Balintawak ungrouped?  Was it difficult, easy etc.?



Not I.  I guess my question would be - why?  I mean to say that I'm sure I could but, I'm wondering aloud what reason there would be to do that?  Grouped or ungrouped, the desired end state is the same.

Did you have something in mind that prompted the question?

Robert


----------



## manhattan1 (Jun 1, 2009)

olivereskrima said:


> *Jan Jensen*, please refrain from giving direct conclusion about the origin of the Teaching methods of Balintawak Grouping system. If you want to know you can talk to the Velez Brothers. You can find Master Monie Velez at the Ayala ground every Sunday from 7 am to 12 noon. Don't just jump to conclusion by hearing John Villasin side only, try to reach out some sources around you.
> 
> Thank you so much and God bless.
> 
> Oliver



_Since i been living here for several years i have talked to_ _GM. __MAX CABALLES, Master Monie Velez and i have been training with GM. Nick Elizar from Nicekelstick, Master Wilson from Teovels Balintawak (Shortly), Master Jhun Dacayana from the Dacayana Eskrima System (which i also hold a instructor degree in) and besides these  people, many other (F)MA people here in Cebu City, since i dont just vacation here for a few days a year but do live, train and teach here....
I can also tell you that the only people i have heard saying GM. Velez made the grouping system and not GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin is guys from Teovels Balintawak... 

Most other people seem to know it was GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and some like Sam Buot and _Visayan Martial Arts even writes on their website..... 

But since you claimed i was only using one source, without knowing me, let me ask you this: "Have you ever talked to GM. John Villasin?"
Because if not, then you are the one with only one sources not me and i find it ironic you would make a claim like that and so many would "thank you" for it...he he



Robert Klampfer said:


> So again I rephrase: how long did it take for John Villasin to declare you as being advanced?
> You seem to be very comfortable speaking on behalf of John Villasin. Is he specifically aware of your statements here? Does he approve?



Wow, you keep getting more childish......
Even if i told you how long it took me it would not tell you anything about my skills, because its different from person to person how fast they learn, a fact you should know.....The only way you could learn about my skills is to jump on a plane and come down here and train with me.....

No, i never speak on behalf of GM. John Villasin and i told you that before, but maybe the reason you would think i do this is because you speak on behalf of your Grandmaster?

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## Robert Klampfer (Jun 1, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Even if i told you how long it took me it would not tell you anything about my skills, because its different from person to person how fast they learn, a fact you should know.....The only way you could learn about my skills is to jump on a plane and come down here and train with me.....
> 
> No, i never speak on behalf of GM. John Villasin and i told you that before, but maybe the reason you would think i do this is because you speak on behalf of your Grandmaster?





Is it just me or does anyone else feel like they're trapped in a Pee Wee Herman movie?

Robert


----------



## arnisador (Jun 1, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else feel like they're trapped in



...Monty Python's argument clinic? Getting the info. out here is great; but where there obviously won't be agreement...it's OK!


----------



## bobby taboada (Jun 2, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> _since i been living here for several years i have talked to_ _gm. __max caballes, master monie velez and i have been training with gm. Nick elizar from nicekelstick, master wilson from teovels balintawak (shortly), master jhun dacayana from the dacayana eskrima system (which i also hold a instructor degree in) and besides these people, many other (f)ma people here in cebu city, since i dont just vacation here for a few days a year but do live, train and teach here...._
> _i can also tell you that the only people i have heard saying gm. Velez made the grouping system and not ggm. Atty. Jose villasin is guys from teovels balintawak... _
> 
> _most other people seem to know it was ggm. Atty. Jose villasin and some like sam buot and _visayan martial arts even writes on their website.....
> ...


 
hi jan,
five months to go my friend, and i think i am going to have a good vacation in cebu.
Sincerly yours
bobby taboada


----------



## fangjian (Jun 2, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> _Since i been living here for several years i have talked to_ _GM. __MAX CABALLES, Master Monie Velez and i have been training with GM. Nick Elizar from Nicekelstick, Master Wilson from Teovels Balintawak (Shortly), Master Jhun Dacayana from the Dacayana Eskrima System (which i also hold a instructor degree in) and besides these people, many other (F)MA people here in Cebu City, since i dont just vacation here for a few days a year but do live, train and teach here...._
> _I can also tell you that the only people i have heard saying GM. Velez made the grouping system and not GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin is guys from Teovels Balintawak... _
> 
> _Most other people seem to know it was GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin and some like Sam Buot and _Visayan Martial Arts even writes on their website.....
> ...


Good point.  It is true about 90% of Balintawak family believes Atty Villasin created this, and about 10% say it was Mr Velez.  Everyone shoud just know both stories.





> Wow, you keep getting more childish......
> Even if i told you how long it took me it would not tell you anything about my skills, because its different from person to person how fast they learn, a fact you should know.....The only way you could learn about my skills is to jump on a plane and come down here and train with me.....
> 
> No, i never speak on behalf of GM. John Villasin and i told you that before, but maybe the reason you would think i do this is because you speak on behalf of your Grandmaster?


 I don't think Robert is interested in how skilled you are.  I think he was just wondering how long you have been a part of this Balintawak family for.  IMO, looking at the posts Robert does not speak on behalf of his teacher.  Your posts do _sound_ as if you are speaking for GM Villasin.  If you are not, I think it would help you if you change the way you write.  


> Not I. I guess my question would be - why? I mean to say that I'm sure I could but, I'm wondering aloud what reason there would be to do that? Grouped or ungrouped, the desired end state is the same.
> 
> Did you have something in mind that prompted the question?


I agree the end state is the same.  I am always looking for different ways to teach martial arts to my students.  Sometimes I'm looking for a better way and sometimes I just get bored.


----------



## Carol (Jun 2, 2009)

arnisador said:


> ...Monty Python's argument clinic? Getting the info. out here is great; but where there obviously won't be agreement...it's OK!



I would like to buy a license for me pet cat Erich...


----------



## manhattan1 (Jun 2, 2009)

bobby taboada said:


> hi jan,
> five months to go my friend, and i think i am going to have a good vacation in cebu.
> Sincerly yours
> bobby taboada



Ok, i look forward to meeting you.... 



fangjian said:


> I don't think Robert is interested in how skilled you are. I think he was just wondering how long you have been a part of this Balintawak family for. IMO, looking at the posts Robert does not speak on behalf of his teacher. Your posts do _sound_ as if you are speaking for GM Villasin.  If you are not, I think it would help you if you change the way you write.



I know what Robert was trying to say, but as i said to him time does not tell how skilled a person is, i have seen people who been within (F)MA for 1 year and are very good, but again i have also seen people within (F)MA that has been training for over 10 years and are still no good at all.....The only way to find out is to train with people and see their skills first hand.........
Please also note that its not only Balintawak expirence that counts, every time i see a style (also Balintawak), i find many similarities with things i have been training before and it helps me a lot to understand new styles.....These days i also use all of my background within my play in Balintawak even the Bujinkan (Ninjutsu).....  

I NEVER speak for GM. John Villasin, he can speak for him self....
Like in this video where he been kind enough to try to explain the difference between the Villasin Style and Teovels Balintawak, i hope it give you some answers:

http://www.fma-arnis.dk/The_difference_between_the_Villasin_style_and_Teovels_Balintawak%20

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## Shartsell (Jun 2, 2009)

Jan, First you said:
Velez did never complete his studies within Villasin Balintawak, so he could not know the same grouping system as GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin did teach *according to GM. John Villasin* (the son of GGM. Atty. Jose Villasin).

and

I think when a Grandmaster within a style like GM. *John Villasin says* that GM. Velez did not learn the complete Villasin Style, its up to GM. Velez (or his people) to prove his/their claims..... 

 Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk

then you say:

No, i never speak on behalf of GM. John Villasin and i told you that before, but maybe the reason you would think i do this is because you speak on behalf of your Grandmaster?

I NEVER speak for GM. John Villasin, he can speak for himself....

first you say according to and he said.... then I never speak for him.
which is it?  either your quoting him or your not.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 2, 2009)

Robert Klampfer said:


> Is it just me or does anyone else feel like they're trapped in a Pee Wee Herman movie?
> 
> Robert


 

YES!

Because if it were funny I would have thought of Lou and Costello.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 2, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> I know what Robert was trying to say, but as i said to him time does not tell how skilled a person is, i have seen people who been within (F)MA for 1 year and are very good, but again i have also seen people within (F)MA that has been training for over 10 years and are still no good at all.....The only way to find out is to train with people and see their skills first hand.........
> Please also note that its not only Balintawak expirence that counts, every time i see a style (also Balintawak), i find many similarities with things i have been training before and it helps me a lot to understand new styles.....These days i also use all of my background within my play in Balintawak even the Bujinkan (Ninjutsu).....
> 
> I NEVER speak for GM. John Villasin, he can speak for him self....
> ...



Jan,

A couple of points if I may:

1) Time does not matter. I agree. But if you cannot answer a question posed to you, and you are slippery with your answers than all your answers are slippery and suspect to the truth.

(* You do more for my arguements, with your posts than I could ever do, which is why I have staid out *).

2) You are speaking for your instructor. If that was not your intent then you may need to understand what you have done. As that was the impact. I have taken that according the formal doctrine of those you train with, this is the absolute truth and only you are speaking the truth. 

Your presentation is that you are speaking with authority of your instructor and senior in the art. 

3) You have switched points multiple times and switched genreations, when you make a mistake admit it and state, that was not your intent, but I am willing to correct that perception now. This goes much further in making your points.


4) Good Luck when you meet some of these people. If truth is found out only by skill (* which is how I have read many of your posts *) then you maybe finding new levels of truth, as many people are not as nice in person as they are on the net where their posts can be tracked. This is by no means a threat, nor to imply a threat by anyone to you, just going to give my point of view as I have seen your posts. Nothing specific I can point too, only taken as a whole does this come out this way. 

5) I do commend you going to train with qualified instructors. But note that not all the qualified instrutors live in Cebu or the PI in general. Many have left for other parts of the world and have qualified students teaching as well. I wish you the best in the Balintawak Family for your training and for your teaching if that is your goal.


----------



## Robert Klampfer (Jun 2, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> YES!
> 
> Because if it were funny I would have thought of Lou and Costello.


 
No doubt!



Rich Parsons said:


> 4) Good Luck when you meet some of these people. If truth is found out only by skill (* which is how I have read many of your posts *) then you maybe finding new levels of truth, as many people are not as nice in person as they are on the net where their posts can be tracked.


 
:wink1:  

Robert


----------



## manhattan1 (Jun 2, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> 2) You are speaking for your instructor. If that was not your intent then you may need to understand what you have done. As that was the impact. I have taken that according the formal doctrine of those you train with, this is the absolute truth and only you are speaking the truth.
> 
> Your presentation is that you are speaking with authority of your instructor and senior in the art.
> 
> ...




2) *No* i am not......

4) I write skills is found out by training with each other, if you read it again....

5) Cebu City is still considered _the_ place for FMA/Eskrima.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 3, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> 2)
> 
> 5) Cebu City is still considered _the_ place for FMA/Eskrima.



*Sorry*, but the FMA's have spread around the world.  Great Filipino martial arts can be found in many places! (many places with no one place being _the place_)


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 3, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> 2) *No* i am not......
> 
> 4) I write skills is found out by training with each other, if you read it again....
> 
> 5) Cebu City is still considered _the_ place for FMA/Eskrima.


 
5)
In the 80's the GM of the system I was training in and still teach lived over half the year less than an hour away. 

In the 90's through today another GM lives within an hour + of my house and I trained with him weekly and others of his students multiple times a week until his Stroke that side lined him. 

So, with such knowledge available in my own backyard, why would I not train with them? Would it not be arrogant to go train with people that they had trained in the PI and not with them? 

4) Like I said there was ways to present, and your intention may have been A, but it your impacy has been B. 

2) See 4.


----------



## bobby taboada (Jun 3, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> 2) *No* i am not......
> 
> 4) I write skills is found out by training with each other, if you read it again....
> 
> ...


----------



## manhattan1 (Jun 3, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Sorry*, but the FMA's have spread around the world.  Great Filipino martial arts can be found in many places! (many places with no one place being _the place_)



Sure some have left, but saying that the Philippines is no longer home of FMA/Eskrima is a big mistake in my mind..... 
Here in Cebu City alone we have Master Velez, GM. John Villasin, GM. Nick Elizar, GM. Max Caballes, the HQ of Doce Pares and i am sure i forgot to mention some....But if you can find a places anywhere else in the world with as many Grandmasters within FMA as here in the Philippines, please let me know where that is?



bobby taboada said:


> HI MR JAN,
> 
> THIS IS ANNOYING FOR EVERY FMA PRACTICIONERS.
> I MYSELF IS A PURE BORN IN CEBU CITY. THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT ESKRIMA STYLES THAT IS ORIGINAL FROM LUZON VISAYAS AND MINDANAO. IF YOU TRY TO PROMOTE THE ART OF FMA PROMOTE THE ENTIRE PHILIPPINES. THIS IS A MARTIAL ART FATHERLY ADVICE TO YOU AND PLEASE DONT GET MAD AT ME.
> ...



Why would i get mad over that, you are right i should say the Philippines.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## du212 (Jun 4, 2009)

Holy crud...and here i was thinking how nice and quiet FMAtalk/Balintawak had gotten...i follow one link (good post) on live hand path and poof ! I've found my way back to the Jan Jensen show! 

I can say this at least, Jan your attitude and posts have certainly united the Balintawak brotherhood b/c its clear isnt it? that you are not making friends in the Global Balintawak community (online) and that may be fine with you...but when you do get the opportunity to "crosstrain" with someone on this list, please let us know when that video is posted.

Hey, congrats on getting to nearly instructor level in Villasin Balintawak. Do you have any videos of you feeding your student?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 4, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Sure some have left, but saying that the Philippines is no longer home of FMA/Eskrima is a big mistake in my mind.....
> Here in Cebu City alone we have Master Velez, GM. John Villasin, GM. Nick Elizar, GM. Max Caballes, the HQ of Doce Pares and i am sure i forgot to mention some....But if you can find a places anywhere else in the world with as many Grandmasters within FMA as here in the Philippines, please let me know where that is?
> 
> 
> ...




You see Jan that is not what I have said at all. 

You stated that Cebu City is *the place* for eskrima and the FMA's. (certainly it is a great place to train)  *Conversely* I am happy to tell you that the FMA's are now world wide and you can practice them in just about any country.  Some countries have a plethora of Filipino teacher's and even more teacher's that are now non Filipino in race.  I think if you look at GM Bobby Taboada's post you will see the right way to promote the arts as from the Philippines in general and also understand that there are a vast majority of FMA practitioner's who have practice or are practicing with some of the best instructor's available around the world!


----------



## manhattan1 (Jun 4, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You see Jan that is not what I have said at all.
> 
> You stated that Cebu City is *the place* for eskrima and the FMA's. (certainly it is a great place to train)  *Conversely* I am happy to tell you that the FMA's are now world wide and you can practice them in just about any country.  Some countries have a plethora of Filipino teacher's and even more teacher's that are now non Filipino in race.  I think if you look at GM Bobby Taboada's post you will see the right way to promote the arts as from the Philippines in general and also understand that there are a vast majority of FMA practitioner's who have practice or are practicing with some of the best instructor's available around the world!



Fair enough, i should not have said Cebu City only, but as GM. Bobby says the Philippines.....
We can also agree that FMA is other places then just here in the Philippines.... 

Sincerly yours,

Jan Jensen
http://www.fma-arnis.dk


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 4, 2009)

manhattan1 said:


> Fair enough, i should not have said Cebu City only, but as GM. Bobby says the Philippines.....
> We can also agree that FMA is other places then just here in the Philippines....
> 
> Sincerly yours,
> ...




Cool!


----------



## Brian Johns (Jun 5, 2009)

Wow. Mr. Jensen, I am not in the least bit impressed with your posturing here and alienating much of the Balintawak community in the process.

There is one flaw with your central argument, implied or otherwise. Your argument seems to indicate a belief that the Villasin method is superior to the Velez method and implying that those who descend from Velez lineage are inferior.

Debating whose method is superior or who is inferior is an exercise in futility. The real question is how much you practice ?  More and more research have revealed that the real key to expert performance is the amount of practice you put in. This growing academic field is referred to as "deliberate practice."  Google it....or better yet, go to Google Scholar and type in "deliberate practice" and you will find a fair number of scholarly papers on this topic. Research to date indicates that the greater number of hours of practice devoted to a certain discipline leads to increased expert performance.

For example, why was Bobby Fischer a chess grandmaster at such an early age ? One might say that he had inborn talent and was a child prodigy. A closer analysis indicates that he had collected over 300 books on chess strategy by the time he was 13 ! Most importantly, he practiced obsessively.

As applied to the martial arts, what really matters is how much practice you put in rather than which method you learn. As Professor Presas used to say so many times in his endearing Filipino accent, "You must flactice !"

What happens if you put in one or two hours of practice of the Villasin method while others train 5 hours a day in some other method ? I would put my money on those who have accumulated more hours of practice.

So in my view, the idea that one method/system/style is superior is, for the most part, bunk. It's how much you practice. If the Villasin method is so superior, explain to me why you won't fare well against one who has practiced the Velez method for 10, 15 or 20 years ?  It's the amount of practice.....not the method that is the real key here.

Finally, your line of argument denigrates those who have put in untold hours of practice and training into their chosen method (in this case, the Velez lineage). Regardless of style, system or method, I have the utmost respect for those who have poured their heart, soul and sweat into the art they love.

Regards,
Brian Johns


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## soncen (Jun 29, 2009)

fangjian said:


> Good point.  It is true about 90% of Balintawak family believes Atty Villasin created this, and about 10% say it was Mr Velez.  Everyone shoud just know both stories.


    You might be correct of about 90% of the Balintawak family believes Atty. Villasin created this and only few says it was Mr. Velez and I am one of this few people, because only few people knows about it. But I don&#8217;t mind majority of them believes it was Atty Villasin as the innovator, even Mr. Velez himself doesn&#8217;t mind giving that honor to his beloved teacher. Who am I to push it hard in the minds of people?

  This few people knows that Atty Villasin was only formulating the innovated method of teaching started by Mr. Velez when he adapted it and the form was arranged by him in proper order and decided what was to be part in the group # 1, the group # 2, the group # 3, the group # 4 and the group # 5. All are in proper sequence and Mr. Velez gladly approved it and he practiced it from then on.

  But when you look at John&#8217;s demos in the youtube, you can only see different thing and I heard some people say it is very uninteresting, boring and very funny to look at just like children&#8217;s game of duel in the vacant lot. However it is a kind of martial art that they love most believing it was the most effective self-defense they ever learned, that for me is worthy of respect no matter what it is like to be.

  Mr. Jan Jensen is telling us that it was the original grouping method innovated by Atty. Villasin and Mr. Velez did not learned from it because he did not finished his training according to Gm John as was told to him. Well it is his right to tell anything what he believed and let the people believe and let them accept what he claims to be the real truth, there&#8217;s no problem with me.

  I just feel the need to inform the people around the world especially those that are practicing the Balintawak style who are thirsty of more believable information about our martial arts and believe me that my only purpose in posting here is to contribute and share some factual knowledge and not to stir the whole Balintawak community in fact I am calling for unity, friendship and brotherhood.

  [FONT=&quot]I would just be happy if Mr. Jan Jensen would accept the invitation from WOTBAG group to have a dialogue and discuss things to make it clear on both sides and I think it would be nice if we can hold an international convention five months from now on the occasion of Gm Bobby Taboada&#8217;s arrival here in Cebu, Philippines to strengthen our friendship.[/FONT]


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## free2flow (Jun 29, 2009)

soncen said:


> [FONT=&quot]I would just be happy if Mr. Jan Jensen would accept the invitation from WOTBAG group to have a dialogue and discuss things to make it clear on both sides[/FONT]


 
Don't worry, this is already been taken cared of when WOTBAG visited GM Villasin in Ayala.


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## bobby taboada (Jul 15, 2009)

DECEMBER 13 SEMINAR WITH THE THREE TREASURES OF BALINTAWAK.
VISIT nngbalintawak.com FOR FLYERS AND THE VENUES


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## arnisador (Jul 20, 2009)

bobby taboada said:


> DECEMBER 13 SEMINAR WITH THE THREE TREASURES OF BALINTAWAK.
> VISIT nngbalintawak.com FOR FLYERS AND THE VENUES



Good luck!


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## kaloy (Jun 10, 2016)

hello everybody,
i am carlo "kaloy" campana, a childhood friend of GM John Villasin and we've been practicing the Balintawak Grouping system since we're 13 yrs old, and this is the grouping system of Villasin Balintawak:

Group 1: Lifting and Clearing
Group 2: Butting/Clearing
Group 3: Body Movement (Tostsada)
Group 4: Familiarization of Wild Blows
Group 5: Combination of Boxing Blows

Nong "Joe" atty Jose Villasin creating this method of teaching  for easy to understand and remember, but the Grouping system is only a basic for easy to play when student doing the "palakaw". He also teach us the Anciong's way before he created the GROUPING SYSTEM...

pugay!


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## kaloy (Jun 10, 2016)

kaloy said:


> hello everybody,
> i am carlo "kaloy" campana, a childhood friend of GM John Villasin and we've been practicing the Balintawak Grouping system since we're 13 yrs old, and this is the grouping system of Villasin Balintawak:
> 
> Group 1: Lifting and Clearing
> ...


BALINTAWAK SUGBU


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## kaloy (Jun 13, 2016)

GROUPING system; it doesn't matter how good you are in GROUPING, for it is not the real fight, it is only a play/basic that booth student can do the "PALAKAW". You don't even know the strike of your opponent in actual fight, it is between force and speed who brought you to the finished line...


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