# Is EPKA Outdated?



## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 17, 2006)

This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.

Is it time to make some changes to EPAK?  Personaly I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling?  What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?

Seriously, if Mr Parker was still alive how many changes would he have made since FMA, MMA and Healing Arts have become so popular?

I know that some will think this is a taboo subject but I think it is valid.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 17, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.
> 
> Is it time to make some changes to EPAK? Personaly *I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling?* What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?
> 
> ...


 
Good Points (especially the bolded ones), the system is over due for a few improvements despite being still effective today.  But times are changing, and Kenpo for the large part has ceased to change to keep up.  While not quite outdated or obsolete yet, if things continue to stagnate it's just a matter of time....


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## HKphooey (Jul 17, 2006)

It is a great question!  Especially is you believe that American Kenpo is not a system of techniques and forms, but a system of thinking and evolving.  

Just like many of the posts have already stated, do not be too quick to judge if something works or does not work.  GM Parker had already started to incorporate some other styles into Kenpo.  Whether it was for commercial reasons or necessity, it still made people think.  Work with other kenpo practioners to get other views on how something may or may not work.  The basic standard of proving/disproving a scientific or physical principle should always be there.  And as always, be sure you are qualified to make that decision before you teach those findings to others.

Just my .02 cents.


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## kenpohack (Jul 17, 2006)

Well, given Mr. Parker's penchant for change, he probably would have made several adaptations to the system since the early 90s had he not passed. I can't imagine Mr. Parker not incorporating more takedown defenses and ground techniques to respond to the proliferation of grappling systems. If nothing else, the introduction of sprawling techniques seems to be a necessity. I study bjj (as a hobbyist) to improve my ground skill because of the lack of curriculum in kenpo. I'll probably never compete in a grappling tournament, mma competition, or even offer much of a fight against a serious  jiu-jitsu practitioner...but I hope to be able to fight off the average joe or amateur wrestler who happens to take me down. I less concerned with stand-up grappling techniques because many are already in the system, especially in the extensions. The lack of ground fighting and defense is still my single greatest dissapointment with kenpo.

I'm not sure if Mr. Parker was into healing arts. I don't know if he had a background in internal arts. Even if he did, it would be tough to incorporate that curriculum into a commercial system. While I have nothing against the healing arts, I fail to see the value in studying arcane forms of medicine that are of dubious effectiveness. I do think that there is value in oriental medicine for doctors and medical professionals. However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 17, 2006)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.


 
Given the nature of the martial arts as a contact combat system, knowledge of healing arts would certainly be useful to heal training injuries in yourself or your training partners and students.  It would also be useful to patch yourself up after a real fight, even if you don't want to hang around to fix up your attacker.

traditional Asian medicine certainly has benefits, which even Western medical doctors are now acknowledging and accepting.  Like anything else, it takes a lot of study and practice and a long time to develope the knowledge and skill to successfully apply the techniques.  This doesn't make them of dubious effectiveness.  Like any medical treatment, the right treatment for the illness or injury is effective, and an inappropriate treatment is not, and can even be dangerous.  For some illnesses and injuries, Western medicine is certainly most appropriate, but I wouldn't write off Asian medicine as Dubious.

Given the time and study needed to become effective with Asian medicine, it is certainly not for everyone (just like Western Medicine, most people don't have the time, money, and inclination to go thru medical school and residency to become a doctor).  that's OK, but I wouldn't discount it.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 17, 2006)

Ahhh... my favorite topic again.

Please see this thread ... one of the best threads ever on Martial Talk:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597&highlight=kenpo+21st+century


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 17, 2006)

You just had to bring that one back out of the archieves, didn't you?


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 17, 2006)

I have seen different threads that were like this however what I am trying to stress here is the method of training.  

Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves.  Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight!  Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers.  Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant! 

As far as the lack of Kenpo groud work well that is a mute poit and everyone agrees with me on that and to the credit of many kenpoist out there they have gone out and tried to get some ground experience.  I know others think that the weapon techniques work and I will agree if you are fighting someone who does not have a single day in any FMA.  Otherwise you are dead meat


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## JasonASmith (Jul 17, 2006)

I certainly hope not!
I am willing to dedicate the rest of my life(and possibly my children's lives, if they so desire) to it's study!


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## MattJ (Jul 18, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves. Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight! Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers. Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant!


 
Couldn't agree more. EPAK is a good system PROVIDED that you train to be able to use it. The static attacker technique line thing is useful, but so is sparring. But you wouldn't know from the way that some instructors treat sparring. 

You gotta take your stuff to the bank!


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## MJS (Jul 18, 2006)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Ahhh... my favorite topic again.
> 
> Please see this thread ... one of the best threads ever on Martial Talk:
> 
> http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597&highlight=kenpo+21st+century


 
WOW!! Talk about a blast from the past!!  Yes, I'm in agreement, that was one of the best!!  

Mike


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 18, 2006)

Just to make this make a bit more sense when I am referring to sparring I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PUTTING ON POINT KARATE GEAR AND GOING AT IT.  If you want to put on some gear ok then wear MMA glove (open fingers!), boxing head gear, mouth piece and groin cup and go at it.  Start from boxing range and take it as far as you want.  Sometimes I go till  a take down or sometimes I go all the way to a submission.  I even reverse it and start and the "all most submission" and defend till I get on my feet and in a dominate position.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 18, 2006)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Well, given Mr. Parker's penchant for change, he probably would have made several adaptations to the system since the early 90s had he not passed.


Agreed


			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I can't imagine Mr. Parker not incorporating more takedown defenses and ground techniques to respond to the proliferation of grappling systems. If nothing else, the introduction of sprawling techniques seems to be a necessity.


The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.


			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I study bjj (as a hobbyist) to improve my ground skill because of the lack of curriculum in kenpo. I'll probably never compete in a grappling tournament, mma competition, or even offer much of a fight against a serious jiu-jitsu practitioner...but I hope to be able to fight off the average joe or amateur wrestler who happens to take me down.


Commendable, my personal opinion since serious Jiu jitsu practitioners are on the rise? Train a little more for the ground work before these guys become the majority just like Judo was for a time.


			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I less concerned with stand-up grappling techniques because many are already in the system, especially in the extensions.


Agreed to an extent. but my background is a little biased with more grappling than meny Kenpoist expose themselves to.


			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> The lack of ground fighting and defense is still my single greatest dissapointment with kenpo.


knowing is half the battle....



			
				kenpohack said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if Mr. Parker was into healing arts. I don't know if he had a background in internal arts. Even if he did, it would be tough to incorporate that curriculum into a commercial system. While I have nothing against the healing arts, I fail to see the value in studying arcane forms of medicine that are of dubious effectiveness. I do think that there is value in oriental medicine for doctors and medical professionals. However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.


This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of eastern medicine. Many of the more effective treatments we use today (particularly for minor injuries of joints and ligaments which are a martial artist's number one ranking injury) are eastern in origin. Many of them are unchanged as well. I'd humbly suggest a little or a lot more research in this area to educate yourself.

....Makes ya wonder how people can have faith in "modern" medicine and denounce "arcane" eastern medicine yet train in "modern" martial arts that are derived from "arcane" eastern fighting methods.....

Not a slam, just food for thought.


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## MattJ (Jul 18, 2006)

> The sprawl is already there in several places


 
Hmmmm......that is a new one on me. Which technique has a sprawl in it? EPAK has some very good stand up grappling, but I do not remember seeing the sprawl (as I know it) in any of the SD techniques.


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## MJS (Jul 18, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.
> 
> Is it time to make some changes to EPAK? Personaly I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling? What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?
> 
> ...


 
IMO, I think that cross training or cross referencing is a good thing.  Now, I'm not saying that one has to drop their base art and take up BJJ, FMA, etc., but I do think that it would be good to get a feel for how these people work their material.  Keeping our training alive and real, is always going to benefit the person doing it.  

We may never find ourselves facing an expert grappler, FMA master, etc., but I feel that the more tools that we have in our toolbox, the better off we'll be.  Better to have it and not need it than to not have it and really need it.

Mike


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## kenpohack (Jul 20, 2006)

The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.

I've never seen a true wrestling sprawl in kenpo. You could make the argument that the motion of a forward fall if applied to a takedown would be a sprawl. That's about the only application of a true spawl that I can see in Kenpo.


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 20, 2006)

I ve never seen the sprawl in Kenpo either, unless it has been a school that has incorporated Shoot Boxing, or a grappling art.


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## Kalicombat (Jul 23, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I have seen different threads that were like this however what I am trying to stress here is the method of training.
> 
> Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves. Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight! Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers. Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant!


 
What makes you think that this is a new idea??? Some, if not many of us are doing all of these things and more. As far as EPAK missing ground work, so what. Is grappling the end all of violent altercations? No, not in my experiences. If you want to be an Ultimate Fighter, Cage Fighter, etc... then by all means, strap on your board shorts and have at it. EPAK was not designed to be a sporting system. It was designed to be a tool for self protection against violent attacks. From Delayed Sword through all 154 techniques plus extensions, EPAK is ripe with potentially lethal strikes. Not for use in sporting events. 

The Gracies, and umpteen other grapplers gaining fame in mixed martial arts events are not thugs in a parking lot, at an ATM, or even a drunken badass in your local watering hole. EPAK is more then adequate to protect its' followers in these situations. In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.

The whole big confusion in this topic is the differentiation between fighting and self defense. Two people agreeing to fight is more likely to end up in a grappling situation, especially if either party has grappling experience. Surprise attacks are less likely to end up in a grappling situation because of many variables, far too many to get into in this post, but, time restraints, intent, adrenaline, etc. are just the tip of the iceberg. No generalizations exist when speaking of violent attacks, a few however do when speaking of fights. 

As far as defense against blades and sticks, EPAK deals with these...and not just in the techniques, but in the principles. Now the age old debate shall ensue as to whether the techniques are the end all of self protection, to which, my answer is no. But, now we have the gaseous expansion, rearrangement, variable expansion, what if, formulation, prefixing, suffixing, sets, forms, and oh yeah, the techniques themselves, as reference points in defending against a blade or a club, or any other instrument that can be likened to the aforementioned. Also, Chuck Taylor has an innovative tool to use in these instances, simply turn and leave, quickly.....I know, I know, not always an option, but, the best one when available, and not only against a weapon, but against any violent altercation. 

So, there you have it, my rant for the evening. Just got done watching Ultimate Knockouts.....pretty canny the way those MMA'ers are still able to KTFO of an opponent while standing....

Yours in the SELF PRESERVATION art of EPAK,
Gary Catherman


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> The sprawl is already there in several places.


Mr. Parker specifically rejected anything that approaches close to being the "sprawl."


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## Kenpodoc (Jul 23, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Mr. Parker specifically rejected anything that approaches close to being the "sprawl."


Interesting.  I assume that this was because a sprawl  makes you more vulnerable to attack from secondary attackers, but assumptions often get me in trouble. 

Jeff


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 23, 2006)

I guess I am going to bite.  I do not believe it is outdated, I believe the concepts from our system are universal concepts, and concepts that can always be applied.  I do not see the harm in incorporating certain things for the benefit of  students, such as grappling techniques so long as it is not just copy paste, and dont call it Parker kenpo.  However, I would always be cautious of what to add, these days a lot of kenpo schools like to add fotm stuff simply to get kids in the door, its sad but I ve seen it more often than not.


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> What makes you think that this is a new idea??? Some, if not many of us are doing all of these things and more. As far as EPAK missing ground work, so what. Is grappling the end all of violent altercations? No, not in my experiences. If you want to be an Ultimate Fighter, Cage Fighter, etc... then by all means, strap on your board shorts and have at it. EPAK was not designed to be a sporting system. It was designed to be a tool for self protection against violent attacks. From Delayed Sword through all 154 techniques plus extensions, EPAK is ripe with potentially lethal strikes. Not for use in sporting events.
> 
> The Gracies, and umpteen other grapplers gaining fame in mixed martial arts events are not thugs in a parking lot, at an ATM, or even a drunken badass in your local watering hole. EPAK is more then adequate to protect its' followers in these situations. In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.
> 
> ...


Gary please. You know it tends to ruffle feathers when you make sense.


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Interesting.  I assume that this was because a sprawl  makes you more vulnerable to attack from secondary attackers, but assumptions often get me in trouble.
> 
> Jeff


yes and no sir. He indeed rejected it because it makes you vulnerable, and it intentionally turns you into a 'grappler.' However he primarily rejected it because it was inferior to other methods. He thought so little of it, he never mentioned or even included in his commercial product even though he predicted the 'wrestling craze' return.


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I guess I am going to bite.  I do not believe it is outdated, I believe the concepts from our system are universal concepts, and concepts that can always be applied.  I do not see the harm in incorporating certain things for the benefit of  students, such as grappling techniques so long as it is not just copy paste, and dont call it Parker kenpo.  However, I would always be cautious of what to add, these days a lot of kenpo schools like to add fotm stuff simply to get kids in the door, its sad but I ve seen it more often than not.


I can agree with you sir on that.


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## Carol (Jul 23, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.


 
I never believed that either.   But, being someone that appreciates BJJ, I will say this - for my Kenpo training, I want to learn from an instructor that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground to begin with.

Personally, I'm not a person that is big or strong or proficient.   The best weapons that I can bring to a fight...dexterity, agility, lateral thinking skills.  If my fight goes to the ground, I lose the "straegery" of these weapons.   The Kenpo training that I am looking for is in a teacher that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground in the first place.    What I do outside of class is my choice, what my instructor does out of class is his choice.   But while I am training under him, I want to learn all I can to keep me in a place where I can stay on my feet.  If my instructor does not think that is a realistic goal for me, then I have a bad match for my training.

Those are my goals, my investment, my training.  Someone else may have different goals.  That is their investment, and their training.


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## Doc (Jul 23, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> I never believed that either.   But, being someone that appreciates BJJ, I will say this - for my Kenpo training, I want to learn from an instructor that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground to begin with.
> 
> Personally, I'm not a person that is big or strong or proficient.   The best weapons that I can bring to a fight...dexterity, agility, lateral thinking skills.  If my fight goes to the ground, I lose the "straegery" of these weapons.   The Kenpo training that I am looking for is in a teacher that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground in the first place.    What I do outside of class is my choice, what my instructor does out of class is his choice.   But while I am training under him, I want to learn all I can to keep me in a place where I can stay on my feet.  If my instructor does not think that is a realistic goal for me, then I have a bad match for my training.
> 
> Those are my goals, my investment, my training.  Someone else may have different goals.  That is their investment, and their training.


I don't think anyone is more vested in that philosophy than SL-4. In fact we train and prove it constantly, with nods from some pretty fare experienced grapplers. It does require a major shift in philosophy, and a willingness to develop the basic skills that allow it to function, however. And, sorry to say, it doesn't work with a motion based concept.


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## Kalicombat (Jul 24, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Gary please. You know it tends to ruffle feathers when you make sense.


 
Doc, Thanks for the reply.....Been Rufflin feathers for way too long now, and still love it. 

Sorry I missed you when you were in Houston at J Buggs. I had knee surgery that week, and hobblin around recuperating. All is well now. I'm about 85-90 % with one more week of physical therapy. No more skateboards for this old man......LOL. 

Gary C.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 24, 2006)

OK, I am one of the strongest believers in EPAK whether you call it motion kenpo or SL4 I really don't care.  I love it, I believe it and I have had to use it on the street against more then 1 opponet and I know that is works. It is deadly, it is fast and it is one kick *** art and I plan to spend the rest of my life to the study and practise of it. 

Now, I completely agree that EPAK is a SELF DEFENSE BASED SYSTEM AND IT FUNCTIONS VERY VERY GOOD AT THAT.  I also completely agree that it is not a fighting system but with some work on entires, deflections and limb destruction you can turn the 3 beat self defense techniques into a 1 beat reaction or, offensively create the required opening or angle of entry.  

Now, as far a grappling goes I will tell you that the 154 techniques simply do not address it good enough.  I am sorry for all of you hard core tradionalist out there but I have been grappling for a very long time and the RAM techniques will not work.  Now I am sure that Doc is gonna tell me otherwise but this is going to be one of those things that I am going to have to see it to believe it and then probably feel it (Doc, I will have to get my butt out there so you can show me.  hahaha)  

In regards to the weapons techniques; it is my opinion that you better not use any of the stick or knive techniques against anyone who has more then 1 month of FMA training.  I really really believe that a knive is extremely dangerous and dealing with it is one of the most difficult self defense sitituations.  I have had the honor to have this discussion with some of the best in EPAK & FMA (Lee Wedlake, Zach Whitson, Al McLuckie  to name a few) and they all agree that there are some good ideas in the EPAK weapons techniques but there are better ways and safer ways of dealing with that knive.  Personaly I prefer to run like hell but if you got to deal with it I promise you I would not do any lance technique.  I would rely more on my PT Kali to defend against a knife.

Once again I still think that the methond of training in EPAK is more outdated then the system it self.  That is more on the lines of what I wanted to discuss.  Techniques lines are ok in the beging but should a 2nd ,3rd or 4th black be basing thier skill on how well they can do a techniques on a partner who lets you do the techniques while they stand there and do not resist?


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## Kenpodoc (Jul 24, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Now, as far a grappling goes I will tell you that the 154 techniques simply do not address it good enough. I am sorry for all of you hard core tradionalist out there but I have been grappling for a very long time and the RAM techniques will not work. Now I am sure that Doc is gonna tell me otherwise but this is going to be one of those things that I am going to have to see it to believe it and then probably feel it (Doc, I will have to get my butt out there so you can show me. hahaha)


I know I can't pull off the ram techniques well against an experienced opponent. But, Mr. Parker was friends with Gene Labell and I understand they worked together and tested Kenpo. This makes me believe that Mr. Parker could use Kenpo to defeat a talented and persistant Grappler. I suspect the first step is not to go to ground and I suspect that without the restrictions involved in ring arts (i.e. the UFC) it is possible to defend against a good grappler.



			
				Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> In regards to the weapons techniques; it is my opinion that you better not use any of the stick or knive techniques against anyone who has more then 1 month of FMA training. I really really believe that a knive is extremely dangerous and dealing with it is one of the most difficult self defense sitituations. I have had the honor to have this discussion with some of the best in EPAK & FMA (Lee Wedlake, Zach Whitson, Al McLuckie to name a few) and they all agree that there are some good ideas in the EPAK weapons techniques but there are better ways and safer ways of dealing with that knive. Personaly I prefer to run like hell but if you got to deal with it I promise you I would not do any lance technique. I would rely more on my PT Kali to defend against a knife.


If Mr. Parkers Kenpo only consisted of the few knife and gun techniques I would agree with you. Obviously in the commercial system the subject is just barely touched upon. Oddly enough, after I saw Vladamir Vasiliev do his Systema the Kenpo Knife techniques began to make sense to me but only as a beginning approach to the concept of knife defense. Kenpo is not designed for Knife dueling like the FMA tend to be. The approach is different but only superficially addressed. Judging by my ability to defend against a magic marker running is my only real defense. However if cornered the Kenpo drive to the center and overwhelm the opponent would serve me better than most of the Tapi tapi FMA movements taught. (Although if Lee, Zach or Al attacked me I might as well just expose my throat and get it over with.)


			
				Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Once again I still think that the methond of training in EPAK is more outdated then the system it self. That is more on the lines of what I wanted to discuss. Techniques lines are ok in the beging but should a 2nd ,3rd or 4th black be basing thier skill on how well they can do a techniques on a partner who lets you do the techniques while they stand there and do not resist?


I think that this depends on how you run the technique line and how the attacks are presented.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 24, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> OK, I am one of the strongest believers in EPAK whether you call it motion kenpo or SL4 I really don't care. I love it, I believe it and I have had to use it on the street against more then 1 opponet and I know that is works. It is deadly, it is fast and it is one kick *** art and I plan to spend the rest of my life to the study and practise of it.
> 
> Now, I completely agree that EPAK is a SELF DEFENSE BASED SYSTEM AND IT FUNCTIONS VERY VERY GOOD AT THAT. I also completely agree that it is not a fighting system but with some work on entires, deflections and limb destruction you can turn the 3 beat self defense techniques into a 1 beat reaction or, offensively create the required opening or angle of entry.
> 
> ...


 
Open minded wisdom finally comes to this thread!
No system is "perfect", "complete", or "finished".
Kenpo is a great self-defense system.   But there are other systems that have more developed solutions for weapons and grappling.
And the comment about training methods and technique lines is right on target!


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 24, 2006)

I have also heard that Mr Parker was a Judo black belt from a reliable source (maybe Doc knows for sure or not) but why did he not address the issue of if you are caught on the ground.  If we are going to play the web of knowledge game and complete catorgies of possible attackes then why is there not any techniques to deal with once your are already on the ground.  Now I know that the object is not to get onto the ground but hey ***** happens and you got to be prepared to deal with it right!  

What makes the techniques work is reaction to pain stimulus and joint manipulation.  If your against a trained fighter then you need to have some countering and recountering in your bag of tricks because his reaction to pain will be much less.  (This is where Doc is gonna school me and say that in SL4 you rely on nerve manipulations and not pain.  Can't wait to see it/feel it Doc!)

As far as the weapons go I still think that if someone knows how to use a knife your just better off running like hell.  Kenpo has some good ideas with all the open ended traingles but they do not take in to consideration that the person may be as trained as you if not more.


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## HKphooey (Jul 25, 2006)

What about Speakman's Kenpo 5.0?  Supposedly deals with ground fightinng.  I started a post asking about the DVD and/or the mateial taught.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=582677#post582677


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 25, 2006)

That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground.  Bravo!  Hip Hip Horay....

Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's?  Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone?  If so who and how long has he been working on it?


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## HKphooey (Jul 25, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....
> 
> Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.
> 
> Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?


 
From one of his websites:

"American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and cage and ground fighting brought into the equation by Mr. Speakmans senior student Trever Sherman. Mr. Sherman has done extensive cage refereeing in several states and competed as an amateur cage fighter to bring this type of combat back to Kenpo so he and Mr. Speakman could create Kenpo answers to defending against an opponent with these skills in the street. Approximately 31 new techniques have been created and replacing out dated or redundant existing techniques. In addition another 20 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.

 It is important to recognize that this is not grappling or cage fighting but an expanding philosophy of Kenpo and the Kenpo ground system coupled with training drills and sparring techniques. It is modifying the existing 4.0 system while remaining completely within the combat models and thinking of American Kenpo to address this increasing and prevalent void in the Kenpo world. By keeping within these models of Kenpo we have been able to develop a system combining the best of these two worlds to give our students the maximum ability to deal with the very real possibilities of becoming involved in these kinds of altercations. In addition it allows us to continue to develop ourselves within the mind-body-spirit paradigm to reach a higher level of individual performance and sustained excellence therefore strengthening the group as a whole."


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 25, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> From one of his websites:
> 
> "American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and cage and ground fighting brought into the equation by Mr. Speakmans senior student Trever Sherman. Mr. Sherman has done extensive cage refereeing in several states and competed as an amateur cage fighter to bring this type of combat back to Kenpo so he and Mr. Speakman could create Kenpo answers to defending against an opponent with these skills in the street. Approximately 31 new techniques have been created and replacing out dated or redundant existing techniques. In addition another 20 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.
> 
> It is important to recognize that this is not grappling or cage fighting but an expanding philosophy of Kenpo and the Kenpo ground system coupled with training drills and sparring techniques. It is modifying the existing 4.0 system while remaining completely within the combat models and thinking of American Kenpo to address this increasing and prevalent void in the Kenpo world. By keeping within these models of Kenpo we have been able to develop a system combining the best of these two worlds to give our students the maximum ability to deal with the very real possibilities of becoming involved in these kinds of altercations. In addition it allows us to continue to develop ourselves within the mind-body-spirit paradigm to reach a higher level of individual performance and sustained excellence therefore strengthening the group as a whole."


 



I was not asking about information that was already on the web site but rather if anyone had already reviewed the dvd's


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## Brian Jones (Jul 25, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....
> 
> Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.
> 
> Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?


 
  haven't seen the DVD's but the clips don't look too bad. I haven't worked any of the material so can't comment on that.  Mr. Speakman isn't the only senior looking at ground work.  Paul Mills has had ground work in his curriculum for some time.

Brian Jones


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 25, 2006)

I saw a few clips of Mr Mills doing some different stuff a while back ago.  Who did he get his ground education from or is it just some stuff he made up himself?


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## HKphooey (Jul 25, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> I was not asking about information that was already on the web site but rather if anyone had already reviewed the dvd's
> 
> Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?


 
The post was in your regard to whom he was working with on the grappling.  I thought you had not seen the info, as you asked a question that was answered on the website.   Sorry for the extra info.


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## HKphooey (Jul 25, 2006)

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> haven't seen the DVD's but the clips don't look too bad. I haven't worked any of the material so can't comment on that. Mr. Speakman isn't the only senior looking at ground work. Paul Mills has had ground work in his curriculum for some time.
> 
> Brian Jones


 
Does Paul Mills use kenpo material/principles or is it entirely another style worked into the kenpo?


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## Doc (Jul 25, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground.  Bravo!  Hip Hip Horay....
> 
> Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's?  Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.
> 
> Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone?  If so who and how long has he been working on it?


Jeff Speakman, strictly speaking is not a Kenpo Senior.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 25, 2006)

Well Doc compared to me he is! hahaha
I get your point.
HAve you seen this materlia that I speak of?


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## HKphooey (Jul 25, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Jeff Speakman, strictly speaking is not a Kenpo Senior.


 
But he was considered a protégé.  I never had the pleasure to meet the man, but from the research I have done, GM Parker thought very highly of his skills and his personality.  

Doc, I know you have met and trained him and he spoke highly of you in interviews.  Do you still have any interaction with Mr. Speakman?


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 25, 2006)

I heard that he was learning SL4 from you Doc!  IF that is trure have you or did Mr Parker ever share SL4 with any of the other seniors?  Or maybe a better way of saying it would be.  Is there anyone else out there doing anything that is close to what you are doing?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 26, 2006)

kenpohack said:
			
		

> The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.
> 
> I've never seen a true wrestling sprawl in kenpo. You could make the argument that the motion of a forward fall if applied to a takedown would be a sprawl. That's about the only application of a true spawl that I can see in Kenpo.


 
I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle.  However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).

Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.

Kenpo does not do the second section where the hip and body weight is used to drive the opponent downward because this changes things into a grappling match which is detrimental to kenpo's core philosophy of remaining standing and free to disengage at will.

The first section is adressed often and has it's own sub heading such as 1) prevent opponent's control of the hips, 2) move hips away from opponent, 3) Move legs away from opponent, 4) etc.  these steps are the initial phases of the sprawl and if you're a fan of the MMA fights you'll see fighters sprawling without going all the way to the ground all of the time (Watch Quinton Jackson versus Kevin Randleman, Vanderlei Silva versus any grappler, Chuck Liddell versus grappler for examples).

People seem to think that the sprawl is automatically "hips back and down, kick the feet back, get your underhooks in and drive the guy to the mat".  This only applies if you WANT to go to the mat with him or you're LATE in reacting to the shoot.

SOME Techniques where Kenpo executes section 1 of "The Spwawl" and teaches the concepts involved in all sprawls be they "true wrestling sprawls" or not...

1) Thrusting Prongs, also look at the extension

2) Broken Ram (a.k.a. the whizzer, but we remain standing instead of driving his head to the mat and pancaking him)

3) Intercepting the Ram

4) Tripping Arrow

5) Striking Serpernt's Head

6) Locked Wing

7) Hooking Wings (graft to other moves after first movement)

8) Gripping Talon extension

9) Obscure Claws

10) Securing the Storm

11) etc.

Just because is hasn't been taught to you does not mean it isn't there or being taught elsewhere.  But my view may be a bit biased having been exposed to Ju Jitsu/wrestling prior to kenpo so I see Ju Jitsu and Wrestling moves and concepts in places others usually do not...


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## Doc (Jul 26, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle.  However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).
> 
> Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
> Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.
> ...


Well sir, Ed Parker was a black belt in 'karate,' Judo, jiujitsu, and Kenpo. Moreover the 'Kenpo' of Hawaii was as much if not more 'grappling' influnced by the Japanese and Henry Okazaki's Dan Zan Ryu Jiu-jitsu, of whom Chow was also a student. So maybe your eyes are better than most. But what actually made it into the commercial system was dependent upon instructors having good eyes and their previous skill and knowledge before coming to 'kenpo.' This fact alone requires people cannot make assumptions of what, or how anything is done outside of their own experience or influence. Much of Parker's experience was by design either removed from or omitted from commercial kenpo karate.


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jul 26, 2006)

Doc,
There you go again with all that secret stuff!! I think I will be out your way in October so hopefully we can sit down for a few and meet and greet.


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## Doc (Jul 26, 2006)

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Doc,
> There you go again with all that secret stuff!! I think I will be out your way in October so hopefully we can sit down for a few and meet and greet.


I truly look forward to it.


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## KenpoRonin (Aug 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> ....Makes ya wonder how people can have faith in "modern" medicine and denounce "arcane" eastern medicine yet train in "modern" martial arts that are derived from "arcane" eastern fighting methods.....Not a slam, just food for thought.


 
That is a rather lame arguement.  First Both modern medicine and modern martial arts have evolved from arcane practices and second he practices both.  The problem with most martial artist is they believe the hocus pocus of surreal magic, Like ninjas walking on water and death touches.  Yet with modern technology we are quickly debunking all these myths.  Now I am not saying that there are not practical applications for oriantal meds.  I often use accu - pressure to fix sore muscles.  I think the point Kenpohack was trying to say is that it takes to long to learn and practice for modern martial artists who do it as a Hobby.


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## KenpoRonin (Aug 4, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I'll have to agree to disagree on this one. (I'm allowed one disagreement right Doc? ). You will never see a true "wrestling" sprawl in Kenpo because Kenpo's very intention is to not wrestle. However, if one learns wrestling or an any grappling art as a means of defense/fighting and not just a sport one should be taught that a sprawl is actually a two part process (or it may just be the way it was taught in the "street" Wrestling and Ju Jitsu I'm versed in).
> 
> Section 1. -- Kill the shoot/clinch
> Section 2. -- Drive the opponent to the ground in a disadvantaged postion in preparation for pinning/submission.
> ...


 

As someone who has spent some time in BJJ and having a student who has done it for years, I would have to say that while I see why you are saying that there is sprawling in the system, I still think you are reaching.  A true sprawl moves the hips and legs not just one or the other or one of each.  These techniques are against clinches, with the exception of the Rams, and all of those are above the waist attacks.  A good take down artist will shoot at or below the knee.


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## MattJ (Aug 4, 2006)

I have to agree with KenpoRonin. KJ3's argument seems like another attempt to reverse-engineer a concept or technique into something that it is not. I really find no shame in admitting that AKK is light on ground-fighting. It is what it is. That is why I cross-train.


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