# What would a form look like if it taught WT sparring techniques?



## skribs (Sep 24, 2018)

*This post is mostly a thought experiment.*

Thought that crossed my mind based on a post in the main forum.  Taekwondo is "the kicking art" according to many.  Honestly, aside from Wushu and other demonstration-based arts, I think Capoeira is the only other art that emphasizes kicks as much as Taekwondo.  This becomes more true in WT-sparring, where kicking is about the only way to score points.

And yet the forms, whether Taegeuk or Palgwe, rarely use kicks.  While we don't train the "official" Palgwe forms at my school, I've seen them online, as well as the Taegeuks, and it appears they all have the same things in common:  1. front kicks are littered throughout the forms, and 2. there's barely any use of any kick besides a front kick.  I added up the kicks in the other thread, and the forms we do at my school up through black belt there's 44 front kicks, a handful of side kicks, a few crescent kicks, and one back kick.  

Compare that with Taekwondo sparring, where you will typically use front pushing kick (instead of snap kicks), front-leg side kicks (instead of the rear-leg ones typical in forms), roundhouse kicks, back kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and spinning hook/spinning roundhouse kicks as your staple techniques.  

Then there's the footwork.  While the Taekwondo forms (especially the palgwes, but also the later Taegeuks, to my knowledge) emphasize the type of one-step footwork you'd see in one-step punch drills, Taekwondo sparring involves a bouncing rhythm, slides, jumps, drags, switches, double kicks, and repeating kicks.  

Which leads me to wonder...what would a *stylized *form designed to teach WT sparring concepts look like?  What would be similar to the Palgwe and/or Taegeuk forms?  What would be different?

Obviously I would want to use a lot more kicks.  Do you bounce, or do you ground the form?  What kind of footwork do you include?  Do you speed up the pace of the form, or keep it slow and in line with other TKD forms?  Or do you simple take some of the ideas in the other forms and add in roundhouse kicks and hook kicks in between motions?

How would you go about making a form designed to teach WT concepts?  Or is the idea entirely silly and you'll stick to drills and sparring?


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## paitingman (Sep 24, 2018)

I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.

If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed


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## skribs (Sep 24, 2018)

paitingman said:


> I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.
> 
> If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed



Some of those elements, yeah.

The issue I have with that type of form is that it seems to be all over the place.  Like if you were to take a song where the verse alternates between Hip Hop and Country, and the Chorus goes back and forth between Metal and Pop.  Those forms show some traditional punching styles, some demonstration-type tricking kicks, and some sparring tactics.  It's all over the place!  And it all just looks kind of random to me.  I guess I understand it for the sake of competition (show a little bit of everything TKD can bring) but it doesn't really make sense to me.

As to the Taegeuks/Palgwes...don't get me wrong.  I like those forms.  In fact, if I had a choice of focusing on the style of combat in the forms (especially Palgwe) and going for deeper stances and strong hand strikes with a few kicks thrown in, vs. going for the advanced kicking that TKD does, I'd go for the forms and that style of fighting.  I like learning both, and I really like the advanced kicks.  This is why this was a thought exercise on how to build an entire form around kicks.


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## drop bear (Sep 25, 2018)

Something in a ladder drill format?


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## skribs (Sep 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Something in a ladder drill format?



Interesting.  There's a couple uses for the ladder I hadn't seen before.  I've used it in a running stance, but never hopping in a chamber, and never for stance footwork.

I hadn't thought of using a prop in the form, but it kind of works with how Wing Chun uses the wooden dummy.  (Not a perfect analogy, but its there).

This brings up a question though:  the format here has 5-10 passes through each drill (depending on if the drill uses 1 or 2 squares in the ladder).  Maybe 10-20 if you go up and down the ladder.  *So how many times should a certain drill be repeated in the form?*  Is it one time just to include it (like an encyclopedia)?  Is it a couple of times to reinforce the idea and maybe show some variants?  Or is it a dozen times to make sure you drill the concept or technique when you do the form?


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## _Simon_ (Sep 25, 2018)

Love it, very cool thought experiment!

I would say that the principles of the forms would be designed around teaching speed, agility, footwork, lightness, explosiveness, as per WT-sparring. And in fact may resemble more shadowsparring I'd say! Obviously more kicks, but the ability to change direction quickly and alter kick intention could play a part...

That style of sparring seems to emphasise speed and explosiveness etc, so it would seem strange to have more rooted stances/movements within it, although I'd be so game to see an attempt!

It may not necessarily have to be bouncy, but if the demonstration of launching forward aggressively and ability to link kicks were in there, it would be enough to teach those specific body mechanics (without a target though of course).


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## skribs (Sep 25, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Love it, very cool thought experiment!
> 
> I would say that the principles of the forms would be designed around teaching speed, agility, footwork, lightness, explosiveness, as per WT-sparring. And in fact may resemble more shadowsparring I'd say! Obviously more kicks, but the ability to change direction quickly and alter kick intention could play a part...
> 
> ...



So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance.  That makes sense.

A deeper stance could still be used.  If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility.  But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance.  That makes sense.
> 
> A deeper stance could still be used.  If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility.  But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.



Yeah absolutely, then again alot of top karate competitors have quite a deep stance, but are still incredibly quick and explosive. It would be a good way to train strength and that driving forward force. If you can explode forward in deep forward leaning stance you'll be a gun in a shorter higher stance!

Perhaps the form could even have a particular sequence in the deeper more rooted stance, then straight after it's then repeated, but in a lighter, more free and agile version or format. I'm tempted to do a quick vid of that idea right now but it's almost midnight and am off to bed haha (or like in some styles they'll have traditional kata and kumite/sparring kata)


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> *This post is mostly a thought experiment.*
> 
> Thought that crossed my mind based on a post in the main forum.  Taekwondo is "the kicking art" according to many.  Honestly, aside from Wushu and other demonstration-based arts, I think Capoeira is the only other art that emphasizes kicks as much as Taekwondo.  This becomes more true in WT-sparring, where kicking is about the only way to score points.
> 
> ...


For schools where kicking - especially the range of kicking you list here - is the focus, the forms should change. I know that's not going to happen, because the forms are controlled by the larger organization. I'm speaking from a purely practical perspective. There's little sense in having forms that cover techniques not actually being taught for use (in whatever the context focus is), except as the occasional additional challenge and such.

So, what would a WT form look like if sparring-focused? It should contain the most useful techniques for sparring and some useful transitions (either useful for sparring, or for body development). It might also include some special challenges for future development, but the majority of the contents should be what works - and is frequently used - in sparring. For arts focused on defensive use or sport, those should also be the primary techniques taught in classes.

My general rule is that a form should contain only movements with a purpose. The primary purpose should be to support what's being taught in class. Anything that doesn't really do that is wasted time and effort. That's not to say some esoteric techniques can't be in there, but they should have a purpose for being there. And the teaching of the class should drive what's in the form, never the other way around, unless the form is the entire purpose (like training it for performance, like in modern wushu).


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> Interesting.  There's a couple uses for the ladder I hadn't seen before.  I've used it in a running stance, but never hopping in a chamber, and never for stance footwork.
> 
> I hadn't thought of using a prop in the form, but it kind of works with how Wing Chun uses the wooden dummy.  (Not a perfect analogy, but its there).
> 
> This brings up a question though:  the format here has 5-10 passes through each drill (depending on if the drill uses 1 or 2 squares in the ladder).  Maybe 10-20 if you go up and down the ladder.  *So how many times should a certain drill be repeated in the form?*  Is it one time just to include it (like an encyclopedia)?  Is it a couple of times to reinforce the idea and maybe show some variants?  Or is it a dozen times to make sure you drill the concept or technique when you do the form?


I think that depends what you want the form to do. I tend to focus on the transitions in the form, because otherwise, I might as well stay on basic drills. So, I have multiple appearances of the same kick in one kata, because each requires a different transition I want to work on. Some of those transitions are practical (for sparring/defensive use) and some are just to work on balance and mobility.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> So explosive movements, but with pauses between each in a shallow, rooted stance.  That makes sense.
> 
> A deeper stance could still be used.  If you can make the explosive kicks from a deep stance, you can do it from a shallow stance, and the deep stances help a bit with strength and flexibility.  But at the same time I can see how practicing for those can be a hindrance, when you should practice the sparring stance.


Transitions into, out of, and between those stances within the form would be of benefit. A deep stance is less of a hindrance if transitions out of it (into either kicks or other stances) are well-developed.


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## skribs (Sep 26, 2018)

So I didn't make the form.  I'm kind of like the guy from that old story, who wanted to write a book but spent his lifetime trying to figure out the perfect opening line and never wrote anything.  I'm still trying to formulate how I would do it.

What I did do yesterday, when I was leading the black belt class at the start, is take some ideas I had regarding footwork and turn them into drills.  Where I took the same basic idea of a roundhouse kick, and different ways to move forward, backward, and sideways while throwing the kick.

For example, starting with the right leg back, here were 4 drills we did in succession:

Right leg step out to the right, left leg roundhouse kick
Right leg step out to the right, left knee up, and right leg jumping roundhouse kick
Right leg step out to the right, stutter step with the left and right leg, and left leg jumping roundhouse kick
Right leg step out to the right, turning step with the left leg, and left leg tornado kick
So I was able to create a progression from something simple to something more complex.  Another thing I would do is with forward and backward movement, work on the same movement forward and backward.  For example:


Both feet slide forward, then roundhouse kick.  Next: both feet slide backward, then roundhouse kick.
Rear knee drive through in a forward hop and roundhouse kick.  Next:  rear knee drive through in a backward hop and roundhouse kick.
These are some kinds of things I was thinking of if I were to do a form, mainly based on what @gpseymour said in Post #10:  multiple appearances of the kick, but in different transitions.  While in the form I wouldn't necessarily want to repeat drills verbatim on left and right sides, I would want to repeat most of the motions on both sides.  For example, with the right leg back, have roundhouse kick + back kick.  With the left leg back, do a roundhouse + back kick + switch-feet-back-kick.  That way the form doesn't feel repetitive, it builds on itself, and it still covers both sides.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 26, 2018)

skribs said:


> So I didn't make the form.  I'm kind of like the guy from that old story, who wanted to write a book but spent his lifetime trying to figure out the perfect opening line and never wrote anything.  I'm still trying to formulate how I would do it.
> 
> What I did do yesterday, when I was leading the black belt class at the start, is take some ideas I had regarding footwork and turn them into drills.  Where I took the same basic idea of a roundhouse kick, and different ways to move forward, backward, and sideways while throwing the kick.
> 
> ...


Nice progression. How did it go, for the folks you were leading?



> So I was able to create a progression from something simple to something more complex.  Another thing I would do is with forward and backward movement, work on the same movement forward and backward.  For example:
> 
> 
> Both feet slide forward, then roundhouse kick.  Next: both feet slide backward, then roundhouse kick.
> ...


Another thought when considering developing forms: is it necessary for the form to cover both sides? I've decided it is not, for my forms. I've (mostly) chosen dominant-side actions to develop those more, since really the form isn't the primary path to developing any of the skills. And the form can be repeated with a start from the other side to even things out, if desired. So, if you want to simplify a form (to make it easier to learn quickly), you can create one that either only focuses on one side, or more or less alternates between sides using logical transitions. In the former case, you'd almost have to practice the form from both sides. In the latter case, it might be acceptable to practice the form most of the time from one starting side, and only occasionally visit it from the opposite start.

It all depends how you want to use the form.


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## skribs (Sep 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Nice progression. How did it go, for the folks you were leading?
> 
> 
> Another thought when considering developing forms: is it necessary for the form to cover both sides? I've decided it is not, for my forms. I've (mostly) chosen dominant-side actions to develop those more, since really the form isn't the primary path to developing any of the skills. And the form can be repeated with a start from the other side to even things out, if desired. So, if you want to simplify a form (to make it easier to learn quickly), you can create one that either only focuses on one side, or more or less alternates between sides using logical transitions. In the former case, you'd almost have to practice the form from both sides. In the latter case, it might be acceptable to practice the form most of the time from one starting side, and only occasionally visit it from the opposite start.
> ...



Drills 1 and 2 seemed challenging, but they got through it.  Drill 3 confused them.  Ironically more people got Drill 4.

The reason I'd use both sides for a lot of it is because TKD sparring is both sides.


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again.  I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.

For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick.  This would be the "practical" version of the form.

Or there would be a more stylized version, which would keep similar pace to the old Taekwondo style.  In this version, I might step back with one leg, and then chamber the other leg and roundhouse kick.

Both options would feature a movement backwards, and a roundhouse kick with the leg that started as the rear leg.  If you capture a few frames (as you would in a printed version of the techniques) they might look almost the same.  

---

The other thing I've been thinking about is how you would do a curriculum with this idea.  Let's say that instead of just looking at one form, we look at doing five forms.  There's a few ways I can see doing this:

Each form dedicated to a different kick, i.e. roundhouse kick, back kick, hook kick, axe kick, and spinning kicks.
Each form dedicated to a style of fighting, i.e. aggressive, defensive, feints, clinching, and punching.
Each form dedicated to a type of movement, i.e. sideways movements, straight movements, switches, turns
Each form dedicated to a range of movement, i.e. clinch, headshot range, kicking range, skipping range, long range.
Then of course I can do these across a couple different styles.  So I could have something like:

A form which primarily uses roundhouse kicks, side kicks/teeps, back kicks, and feints with sideways and backward movements to cover a defensive style or how to keep your opponent at range
A form which primarily uses spinning kicks, repeating kicks, and foot switches to give balance and control.
A form which uses a combination of clinching techniques, punches, and head kicks to cover a close-range aggressive style, or the tools against someone with that kind of style
A form focused on jumping kicks and different ways you can jump when doing kicks.  (The focus would be on sliding kicks, drag kicks, pop kicks, and bicycle kicks, *not *on fancy jumping kicks like 540s).  To some degree, this would help reinforce the defensiveness of the first form, but would also teach aggressive techniques to close distance.
A form which focuses more on hand and head motions to have an effective guard while kicking.
Actually...I kind of like that.


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## Buka (Nov 6, 2018)

It's like shadow boxing.


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> It's like shadow boxing.



I'm not seeing the connection.


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## Buka (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'm not seeing the connection.



A form consisting of sparring techniques and .....

Shadowboxing - which only consists of sparring techniques.

You don't see a connection?


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> A form consisting of sparring techniques and .....
> 
> Shadowboxing - which only consists of sparring techniques.
> 
> You don't see a connection?



Kind of.  But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata.  It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

paitingman said:


> I think it would look something like the new Himchari form with the footwork elements, minus the tricking type sections.
> 
> If you put a form together I'd love to see it. Taeguk and Palgwe forms now only encompass so little of what modern tkd has developed


I just watched a video of the form. Beautiful and impressive. Definitely a high level form. I think it would be a great addition to most TKD curriculum. A great evolution to modern practice. I am speaking from an old guys perspective, but I think only about 25% BB's could pull it off even moderately. I suppose the drills we do should make it easier though.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Some of those elements, yeah.
> 
> The issue I have with that type of form is that it seems to be all over the place.  Like if you were to take a song where the verse alternates between Hip Hop and Country, and the Chorus goes back and forth between Metal and Pop.  Those forms show some traditional punching styles, some demonstration-type tricking kicks, and some sparring tactics.  It's all over the place!  And it all just looks kind of random to me.  I guess I understand it for the sake of competition (show a little bit of everything TKD can bring) but it doesn't really make sense to me.
> 
> As to the Taegeuks/Palgwes...don't get me wrong.  I like those forms.  In fact, if I had a choice of focusing on the style of combat in the forms (especially Palgwe) and going for deeper stances and strong hand strikes with a few kicks thrown in, vs. going for the advanced kicking that TKD does, I'd go for the forms and that style of fighting.  I like learning both, and I really like the advanced kicks.  This is why this was a thought exercise on how to build an entire form around kicks.


.

I like the "all over" style of the form. Much more realistic. But I agree with you; what most people don't understand and, apparently are not being taught, is that forms teach the fundamentals. Especially the traditional forms like the Palgwe's are not flashly. They are teaching the high percentage moves that everyone learning the art/style need to know. 
I really like the new form. It has a place in most TKD curriculum. Not everyone is going to be able to do it well and that should be ok. Nothing wrong with setting the bar high.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2018)

Well, once you create the forms, you are on the way to creating your own kukkiwon offshoot!


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## Buka (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Kind of.  But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata.  It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.



Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements. 

Think about that in your thought experiment.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again.  I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.
> 
> For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick.  This would be the "practical" version of the form.
> 
> ...


Love the ideas mate . A matter of condensing specific sparring principles into forms, and yep I think that's a great idea to break it down like that so that each form is very specific with an intention. Although it would make for a LOT of forms hehe! But that's beauty of it, and you can still combine certain related ideas into the one form, but ideas that can relate to each other.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Kind of.  But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata.  It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.


That sounds like you are putting it back in the box. e.g. Taeguek and Palgwe poomse.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again.  I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.
> 
> For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick.  This would be the "practical" version of the form.
> 
> ...


I clicked like on this only because theres no "love" option. Even if you do this just for yourself, it would be an amazing exercise and new practice material for the future. And, of course, you could incorporate into your own curriculum if you end up with your own school in the future.


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements.
> 
> Think about that in your thought experiment.



I don't think you understand the experiment.  The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.  



dvcochran said:


> That sounds like you are putting it back in the box. e.g. Taeguek and Palgwe poomse.



In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do.  Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Well, once you create the forms, you are on the way to creating your own kukkiwon offshoot!



Probably not.  If I was going to make an unaffiliated Taekwondo school, I would stick with the traditional forms and expand more on their applications, instead of going with the WT sparring style and doing forms based on those.



kempodisciple said:


> I clicked like on this only because theres no "love" option. Even if you do this just for yourself, it would be an amazing exercise and new practice material for the future. And, of course, you could incorporate into your own curriculum if you end up with your own school in the future.



It is mostly for me.  Although, my lessons are starting to slow down in terms of the pace I learn new things, so I might take some time to flesh these ideas out.  I think I will do these, if only because some of them will require me to think some things through or learn some new tricks and tactics.  We don't practice much with the clinch at my school, there's a guy who is really good with his hands in sparring and I want to pick his brain, and it will be good to think through some of the stuff I do know pretty well in order to classify it better.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Probably not.  If I was going to make an unaffiliated Taekwondo school, I would stick with the traditional forms and expand more on their applications, instead of going with the WT sparring style and doing forms based on those.
> 
> 
> 
> It is mostly for me.  Although, my lessons are starting to slow down in terms of the pace I learn new things, so I might take some time to flesh these ideas out.  I think I will do these, if only because some of them will require me to think some things through or learn some new tricks and tactics.  We don't practice much with the clinch at my school, there's a guy who is really good with his hands in sparring and I want to pick his brain, and it will be good to think through some of the stuff I do know pretty well in order to classify it better.


Meant to add in, if you create them and youre willing to, a video would be awesome


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> I don't think you understand the experiment.  The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.
> 
> 
> 
> In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do.  Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.


Right, so I would not expect it to look anything like a traditional poomsae.


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## skribs (Nov 6, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Meant to add in, if you create them and youre willing to, a video would be awesome



I definitely plan on that.


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> I don't think you understand the experiment.  The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.
> 
> 
> 
> In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do.  Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2018)

I think I understand the experiment, Maybe you should explore the plural of poomsae.


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements.
> 
> Think about that in your thought experiment.



I admit I'm just busting balls now, but what do you disagree with, that shadow boxing isn't a prescribed set of movements, or that you should consider a suggestion in a thought experiment?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> I think I understand the experiment, Maybe you should explore the plural of poomsae.



That would actually be quite a feat, since Korean doesn't pluralize nouns. For example, "saram" can mean "person" or "people" depending on the context.


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## skribs (Nov 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> I admit I'm just busting balls now, but what do you disagree with, that shadow boxing isn't a prescribed set of movements, or that you should consider a suggestion in a thought experiment?



That your suggestion has any relevance to the thought experiment.

My experiment:  can I take sparring drills and make a poomsae?
Your suggestion:  you can do sparring drills.

Yes.  I know I can do sparring drills.  That's not the point.  In fact, the starting point of this thought experiment is those sparring drills.  So you're literally telling me that my thought experiment should consider something that's already in the experiment.

It would be like if I were to do an experiment on the effects of relative humidity and mold growth, and you told me I would need to consider the amount of moisture in the air.


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## Metal (Nov 7, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I just watched a video of the form. Beautiful and impressive. Definitely a high level form. I think it would be a great addition to most TKD curriculum. A great evolution to modern practice. I am speaking from an old guys perspective, but I think only about 25% BB's could pull it off even moderately. I suppose the drills we do should make it easier though.



Yeah, it's a great Poomsae, but according to the plans of the Kukkiwon this is supposed to be the just for the under 18 years division. So, not all black belts need to do it. Instructors will need to learn it though in order to teach it... ^^

For anyone who wants to check it out:






The other age division Competition Poomsae also have elements that most of the leisure sports Taekwondoin (that includes me) won't be able to pull off.


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## skribs (Nov 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That would actually be quite a feat, since Korean doesn't pluralize nouns. For example, "saram" can mean "person" or "people" depending on the context.



Thank you!  I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.

But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Thank you!  I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.
> 
> But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.


Or he was offering advice on how to conceptualize it. It seemed relevant to me, and ive never seen him trying to rain on someones parade here


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Thank you!  I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.
> 
> But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.



That couldn't be further from the truth, actually I love your experiment. Just trying to stimulate your thought process.


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## Buka (Nov 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> That would actually be quite a feat, since Korean doesn't pluralize nouns. For example, "saram" can mean "person" or "people" depending on the context.



True. But I'm not talking about grammatical rule, just about the idea of more than one.


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## dvcochran (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Probably not.  If I was going to make an unaffiliated Taekwondo school, I would stick with the traditional forms and expand more on their applications, instead of going with the WT sparring style and doing forms based on those.



To your point, do you feel the Taeguek forms really have very much too contribute to WT sparring? I am really asking. They were added after I had started practicing, maybe that is part of my rub. They epitomize being traditional, with the three lines representing the Korean flag and all, but beyond the fundamental skill they teach, along with all other forms I have learned doing the same, I do not put very much value in them. Another, "let's do it this way just because it is new" idea. No substance at all. Ok, I am off my platform.


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## skribs (Nov 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> True. But I'm not talking about grammatical rule, just about the idea of more than one.



I am looking at doing a few.  And I'm actually looking at doing this now.  Right now there are three different lines of thinking I'm taking:

*I need to up my game on the clinch and on hand techniques.*  (Need to do research on the clinch as we don't use it much at my school, and there's a guy at my school who has amazing hand-foot coordination when he kicks that he's virtually impossible to counter, and I want to pick his brain).
*How do I want to stylize these.*  What do I want to be natural techniques and what do I want to be formulaic?  Do I want to use a proper guard, or the tight hands that TKD typically uses, or how do I want to balance between those?  
*Which specific concepts do I want to include in the forms?* 



dvcochran said:


> To your point, do you feel the Taeguek forms really have very much too contribute to WT sparring? I am really asking. They were added after I had started practicing, maybe that is part of my rub. They epitomize being traditional, with the three lines representing the Korean flag and all, but beyond the fundamental skill they teach, along with all other forms I have learned doing the same, I do not put very much value in them. Another, "let's do it this way just because it is new" idea. No substance at all. Ok, I am off my platform.



I actually don't consider Taegeuk forms to be traditional.  I find them to be an amalgam of the traditional techniques with more modern stances.  What I'm looking at is basically the opposite of a Taegeuk:  modern techniques and strategies, but with a more traditional presentation.

As to their efficacy in sparring?  I'd say it's virtually nil.  How many of the techniques in the Taegeuks do people use in sparring?  How many techniques exist in sparring, but not in Taegeuks?

If you took a Venn Diagram and put "things you learn in sparring" and "things you learn in Taegeuks", I imagine the cross-section would be very small.


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## skribs (Nov 7, 2018)

Oh, also a *4th point:  How to combine the concepts I want to include in the forms, so that I can do so efficiently?
*
For example, in the close-range form where I want to cover clinch, punches, and head kicks, I can separate those out, or include them all in a phrase.

Separate:  One phrase consisting of stepping into a clinching stance, and then exiting the stance with a roundhouse.  Next phrase of doing roundhouse kick, 2 punches, and then another roundhouse kick.  Third phrase of doing roundhouse kick, then skipping hook kick.

Together:  One phrase of doing a roundhouse kick and engaging in the clinch, followed by a 1-2 punch and axe kick.

Okay, not exactly the same techniques, but you get the idea.  But how can I isolate different techniques and strategies, but keep the total number of techniques and phrases down?

---

Here are some concepts I'm thinking about using:


Clinch - how to pivot, how to dip your hips to fire a short kick, how to move back or push and kick, how to trap their arms out of the way of a body shot (if under) or face shot (if over)
Punch - how to use punches to stop their kick motion, to push back, or to aid in sliding back to gain distance
Head kicks - how to set up a head kick with low-high kicks or with combos, how to set up a head kick with footwork, how to use the threat of a head kick to open up the body
Maybe I don't force headshots into this one and I let them come in the kicking motion form or the kicking combination form.  Maybe there isn't enough content in the handwork form that I move the bulk of these into those.  I'll have to play around with it.  A lot of these rambling posts are me thinking out loud, and when I start the post I may not have the same thoughts as when I finish.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> A lot of these rambling posts are me thinking out loud, and when I start the post I may not have the same thoughts as when I finish.



Ramble away! If it helps sort it out for you then go for it, it's fascinating, can't wait to see how it comes together .

I know the offshoots of Kyokushin like Ashihara and Enshin broke away from traditional kata, and developed what they call sparring katas (amongst others). They're worth a look just to give ideas, even though the sparring style will be very different, but may stimulate ideas as to what principles they include, and what they decided to link together.


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## dvcochran (Nov 7, 2018)

skribs said:


> Oh, also a *4th point:  How to combine the concepts I want to include in the forms, so that I can do so efficiently?
> *
> For example, in the close-range form where I want to cover clinch, punches, and head kicks, I can separate those out, or include them all in a phrase.
> 
> ...



Similar to the basic forms which only have 2-4 different moves, it sounds like you would have to create a set of poomsae to cover the depth of techniques you are talking about. However, I have always considered lower belt forms more fractional, seldom having multiple moves. Working on the fundamentals. From what you describe do you not think partner drills are more thorough? You have feedback and resistance in multi-move drills. Not trying to rain on the parade but from what you outlined they be more practical. How about creating a more comprehensive set of drills, such as more modern 3-step sparring? Or a poomse with two people, one offense one defense. That would be very cool. An more realistic.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 7, 2018)

Just had a thought, UNLESS maybe forms were initially developed specifically because it was meant to train stuff you couldn't necessarily do in sparring, and sparring was developed to develop other attributes and skillsets altogether! But I don't see why a merging can't happen. And I love the idea of specific forms being built to teach sparring principles, and building on each other like that.

Perhaps in the styles where they completely don't resemble each other (ie forms and sparring), that that was the point, and supposed to be so as to train different aspects of the art. Interesting...


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## skribs (Nov 7, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Similar to the basic forms which only have 2-4 different moves, it sounds like you would have to create a set of poomsae to cover the depth of techniques you are talking about. However, I have always considered lower belt forms more fractional, seldom having multiple moves. Working on the fundamentals. From what you describe do you not think partner drills are more thorough? You have feedback and resistance in multi-move drills. Not trying to rain on the parade but from what you outlined they be more practical. How about creating a more comprehensive set of drills, such as more modern 3-step sparring? Or a poomse with two people, one offense one defense. That would be very cool. An more realistic.



Because you don't always have a partner.  And because one reason I understand for a poomsae is to keep a log of techniques and strategies.


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## Metal (Nov 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> As to their efficacy in sparring?  I'd say it's virtually nil.  How many of the techniques in the Taegeuks do people use in sparring?  How many techniques exist in sparring, but not in Taegeuks?



Well, you could always point out three techniques that are featured in the Taegeuk Poomsae which are used in sparring:

Sidekick
Roundhouse Kick
Middle Section Punch

Though altered to adapt to the sparring situation, pointing system and ruleset.

Nevertheless you're right about the efficiency of Poomsae training for sparring. I doubt any of the top ranking Kyeorugi athletes train any Poomsae at all. Some of those who transferred from other 'sports' via the "Fighting Chance" program in the UK for example may even never have learned any of the forms.


The Kukkiwon did a great job in adding sparring and demonstration techniques to the new Kukkiwon competition Poomsae. If you look at it right now: Poomsae and Kyeorugi look completely different technique wise, while Taekwondo Demonstrations become a display of acrobatics and dancing. By adding Kyeorugi- and more acrobatic techniques to Poomsae, Poomsae becomes a better representation of the variety that Taekwondo has to offer.


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Just had a thought, UNLESS maybe forms were initially developed specifically because it was meant to train stuff you couldn't necessarily do in sparring, and sparring was developed to develop other attributes and skillsets altogether! But I don't see why a merging can't happen. And I love the idea of specific forms being built to teach sparring principles, and building on each other like that.
> 
> Perhaps in the styles where they completely don't resemble each other (ie forms and sparring), that that was the point, and supposed to be so as to train different aspects of the art. Interesting...



Outside of Taekwondo most forms are supposed to teach sparring concepts.

How much or little a form looks like how you really fight is about the balance between attribute development, depth and strategy.

A form like Sanchin is all attribute development, muscle tension and breathing are all important. 

The northern Shaolin type stuff where a guy is flying around punching and kicking like he's fighting an invisible army is all strategy, in that each sequence is it's own set piece intended to transfer almost exactly to the fight.

A karate form like Tekki (naihanchi) is all depth, in that each sequence of moves is as much symbolic of other ideas as it is about the move it's self.

Most traditional karate forms are a fairly even balance of the 3.

Most of the Taekwondo forms I've encountered are primarily made to be "not karate" despite being based on karate. That being said I know they are still creating forms so maybe that's not true for the newer one's.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> The northern Shaolin type stuff where a guy is flying around punching and kicking like he's fighting an invisible army is all strategy, in that each sequence is it's own set piece intended to transfer almost exactly to the fight.
> .


What you describe here sounds to me like Modern Wushu, which is performance art and competition art based on the old fighting methods, but divorced from practical use.  The traditional Northern Shaolin that I have seen do not fit your description above, flying around fighting an invisible army.  

The use of material in Chinese forms, from my experience, can range from direct application to abstract development of principles, and anywhere in between.  I don’t feel it’s possible to make a generalization like that.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Just had a thought, UNLESS maybe forms were initially developed specifically because it was meant to train stuff you couldn't necessarily do in sparring, and sparring was developed to develop other attributes and skillsets altogether! But I don't see why a merging can't happen. And I love the idea of specific forms being built to teach sparring principles, and building on each other like that.
> 
> Perhaps in the styles where they completely don't resemble each other (ie forms and sparring), that that was the point, and supposed to be so as to train different aspects of the art. Interesting...


In my opinion, the use of forms is most beneficial in developing principles and learning to connect them to technique.  Application should be part of it, forms should give you good ideas for how to use the techniques.  But development of fundamentals and principles, connected to technique, is where the real meat of their usefulness lie.  Forms that are created with that in mind seem to me to be the most useful forms.  

That’s just my opinion.


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> In my opinion, the use of forms is most beneficial in developing principles and learning to connect them to technique.  Application should be part of it, forms should give you good ideas for how to use the techniques.  But development of fundamentals and principles, connected to technique, is where the real meat of their usefulness lie.  Forms that are created with that in mind seem to me to be the most useful forms.
> 
> That’s just my opinion.



I sit slightly adjacent in that I believe technical principles are intrinsic in any form anyway. 
To me the real power of forms is in the strategies that they embody.

Strategic principles can make direct use of the application of the form sequence but can also be translated to other circumstances and techniques.


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## DaveB (Nov 8, 2018)

As a side note I got about halfway through creating a form like this topic proposes. Unfortunately I forgot it before I got a chance to codify it, but I remember that:
- I made use of knee raises where the specific technique was variable,
- it made use of formal stances as balance and grounding training as a foundation for  for the more freestyle movement to be employed, 
...but that's about it.

Rebuilding and finishing it has been on my to do list for a few years now.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I sit slightly adjacent in that I believe technical principles are intrinsic in any form anyway.
> To me the real power of forms is in the strategies that they embody.
> 
> Strategic principles can make direct use of the application of the form sequence but can also be translated to other circumstances and techniques.


Regarding your first comment, I agree that it should be. Perhaps I ought to modify my comment and say that the person practicing the form needs to understand that aspect, and make sure to pay attention to it as he does the form.  In my opinion,many people either do not understand this, or do not do a good job of keeping their sites on that aspect.  The form becomes a piece of performance art, or else simply something to “do” and to get through, without understanding what benefits he ought to be striving to get from it.  It is almost like the form becomes a product in and of itself, rather than an exercise which should be beneficial to the development of skill.

Regarding your second comment, I see less about strategy in them beyond what is inherent in how a technique ought to be effectively used and applied, but that is just me.  Different people will get different things out of them.

I am less committed to direct use of a particular sequence from a form.  It can be useful that way but does not need to be.  Again in my opinion, people tend to see forms as containing solutions to use in a fight, and even a formalized curriculum of application that they must live up to in order to justify their practice of their particular system.  People tend to believe that they need to be able to successfully use and apply every aspect of every form in their system.  I see it slightly differently.  To me, forms show ideas of what might be possible.  Perhaps you can make it work right out of the box, but that does not matter.  Rather, they develop your vision of what is possible, and you end up applying the techniques in your own way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 8, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ramble away! If it helps sort it out for you then go for it, it's fascinating, can't wait to see how it comes together .
> 
> I know the offshoots of Kyokushin like Ashihara and Enshin broke away from traditional kata, and developed what they call sparring katas (amongst others). They're worth a look just to give ideas, even though the sparring style will be very different, but may stimulate ideas as to what principles they include, and what they decided to link together.


That's a good thought for some related material.


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## dvcochran (Nov 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> Because you don't always have a partner.  And because one reason I understand for a poomsae is to keep a log of techniques and strategies.


Granted. But a partner is not necessary to practice step drills. I think most of us do it all the time. It is, of course, more effective with a partner. Agreed, one of the reasons forms were created is to practice moves on your own. So you make a poomsae for offense and one for defense. It would still be really cool to see them put together.
To you original post, the bouncing you see a lot of people to in sparring is preference, like in boxing. It is not done all the time nor used as "rhythm" for your techniques. I have seen people doing this too much and it is some of the easiest telegraphing to read out there. So maybe use it only briefly in your form. I do not see how there can be much of any traditional "rigidity" in the pattern of moves you described. I think it would be counter-productive. The traditional forms really stress working on power and sacrifice speed, at least speed move to move. So should the emphasis be on the speed and technical difficulty of the moves? Or are you going to chain sequences together? If the latter, could you not chain some of the existing sparring drills together to accomplish your goal?
Yea, it gets a little silly the longer I set here and spit ball, but it will be great if you pull it off. Blending new and old or something totally new will have value.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Regarding your first comment, I agree that it should be. Perhaps I ought to modify my comment and say that the person practicing the form needs to understand that aspect, and make sure to pay attention to it as he does the form.  In my opinion,many people either do not understand this, or do not do a good job of keeping their sites on that aspect.  The form becomes a piece of performance art, or else simply something to “do” and to get through, without understanding what benefits he ought to be striving to get from it.  It is almost like the form becomes a product in and of itself, rather than an exercise which should be beneficial to the development of skill.
> 
> Regarding your second comment, I see less about strategy in them beyond what is inherent in how a technique ought to be effectively used and applied, but that is just me.  Different people will get different things out of them.
> 
> I am less committed to direct use of a particular sequence from a form.  It can be useful that way but does not need to be.  Again in my opinion, people tend to see forms as containing solutions to use in a fight, and even a formalized curriculum of application that they must live up to in order to justify their practice of their particular system.  People tend to believe that they need to be able to successfully use and apply every aspect of every form in their system.  I see it slightly differently.  To me, forms show ideas of what might be possible.  Perhaps you can make it work right out of the box, but that does not matter.  Rather, they develop your vision of what is possible, and you end up applying the techniques in your own way.


To that last part, that's how I see a lot of what I call "classical" training in JMA. Within NGA, there are techniques I don't consider directly useful, especially not in the way they are shown. But if I look at them as forms, then I can see the principles in them and look for ways to use those principles. So, I might apply the principles of many of the Classical techniques without ever looking anything like the Classical form.


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## skribs (Nov 13, 2018)

DaveB said:


> As a side note I got about halfway through creating a form like this topic proposes. Unfortunately I forgot it before I got a chance to codify it, but I remember that:
> - I made use of knee raises where the specific technique was variable,
> - it made use of formal stances as balance and grounding training as a foundation for  for the more freestyle movement to be employed,
> ...but that's about it.
> ...



Unfortunately I have side-tracked myself off of this project because I had a breakthrough on another Taekwondo-related idea I've had.  Similar to you, an idea I had a few years ago and got partway through.  Only my problem wasn't that I stopped, but that I got stuck.  Had an epiphany last week and that's taken my mental energy for now.



dvcochran said:


> Granted. But a partner is not necessary to practice step drills. I think most of us do it all the time. It is, of course, more effective with a partner. Agreed, one of the reasons forms were created is to practice moves on your own. So you make a poomsae for offense and one for defense. It would still be really cool to see them put together.
> To you original post, the bouncing you see a lot of people to in sparring is preference, like in boxing. It is not done all the time nor used as "rhythm" for your techniques. I have seen people doing this too much and it is some of the easiest telegraphing to read out there. So maybe use it only briefly in your form. I do not see how there can be much of any traditional "rigidity" in the pattern of moves you described. I think it would be counter-productive. The traditional forms really stress working on power and sacrifice speed, at least speed move to move. So should the emphasis be on the speed and technical difficulty of the moves? Or are you going to chain sequences together? If the latter, could you not chain some of the existing sparring drills together to accomplish your goal?
> Yea, it gets a little silly the longer I set here and spit ball, but it will be great if you pull it off. Blending new and old or something totally new will have value.



Like I said, it would be something to make the step drills sort of codified.

And it's more a thought experiment to take those drills and put them into a form, rather than about the drills themselves.


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## DaveB (Nov 13, 2018)

skribs said:


> Unfortunately I have side-tracked myself off of this project because I had a breakthrough on another Taekwondo-related idea I've had.  Similar to you, an idea I had a few years ago and got partway through.  Only my problem wasn't that I stopped, but that I got stuck.  Had an epiphany last week and that's taken my mental energy for now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tell us more, where were you stuck? 
What was the solution?


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## skribs (Nov 14, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Tell us more, where were you stuck?
> What was the solution?



So it's a board game.  And I had a great idea, but a terrible execution of the idea.  Basically, the idea is that you constantly level up your fighter, and then complete challenges by rolling dice.  But it was really difficult to try and create because every turn your power increases, so I'd have to balance those challenges accordingly.  And if it's not your turn, you have nothing to do.

Realized I could make it where you compete against each other.  Now everyone is rolling dice on every turn.  And also, because everyone increases in power at the same rate, the difficulty scales automatically.  So it will be easier to design and more fun to play.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 14, 2018)

skribs said:


> So it's a board game.  And I had a great idea, but a terrible execution of the idea.  Basically, the idea is that you constantly level up your fighter, and then complete challenges by rolling dice.  But it was really difficult to try and create because every turn your power increases, so I'd have to balance those challenges accordingly.  And if it's not your turn, you have nothing to do.
> 
> Realized I could make it where you compete against each other.  Now everyone is rolling dice on every turn.  And also, because everyone increases in power at the same rate, the difficulty scales automatically.  So it will be easier to design and more fun to play.


I would... SO play that... sounds darn epic!


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## skribs (Nov 14, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I would... SO play that... sounds darn epic!



Problem is that I did a bit of market research and based on the production costs, the MSRP would be about $125.  Which I think will knock it up to the point of being unmarketable.

Still gonna make the game, but not try to sell it.  Maybe some Christmas gifts for gamer or Taekwondo family and friends.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2018)

skribs said:


> Problem is that I did a bit of market research and based on the production costs, the MSRP would be about $125.  Which I think will knock it up to the point of being unmarketable.
> 
> Still gonna make the game, but not try to sell it.  Maybe some Christmas gifts for gamer or Taekwondo family and friends.


Not knowing enough about the research you did for that...if you buy the pieces in bulk it would probably be cheaper. Youd be taking a risk that you could sell it, but maybe do a kickstarter for that? Or a website for people to commit to buying it to determine if you coumd make a profit/break even (depending what you want obviously).


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## skribs (Nov 15, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Not knowing enough about the research you did for that...if you buy the pieces in bulk it would probably be cheaper. Youd be taking a risk that you could sell it, but maybe do a kickstarter for that? Or a website for people to commit to buying it to determine if you coumd make a profit/break even (depending what you want obviously).



That *is *buying them in bulk!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2018)

skribs said:


> That *is *buying them in bulk!


Oh wow.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 15, 2018)

skribs said:


> So it's a board game.  And I had a great idea, but a terrible execution of the idea.  Basically, the idea is that you constantly level up your fighter, and then complete challenges by rolling dice.  But it was really difficult to try and create because every turn your power increases, so I'd have to balance those challenges accordingly.  And if it's not your turn, you have nothing to do.
> 
> Realized I could make it where you compete against each other.  Now everyone is rolling dice on every turn.  And also, because everyone increases in power at the same rate, the difficulty scales automatically.  So it will be easier to design and more fun to play.



So.... you're basically playing AD&D with everybody using the Monk class.


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## dvcochran (Nov 15, 2018)

My how this thread ran off the rails.


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## skribs (Nov 16, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> My how this thread ran off the rails.



It's just mirroring what I did with the idea.


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## DaveB (Nov 17, 2018)

skribs said:


> So it's a board game.  And I had a great idea, but a terrible execution of the idea.  Basically, the idea is that you constantly level up your fighter, and then complete challenges by rolling dice.  But it was really difficult to try and create because every turn your power increases, so I'd have to balance those challenges accordingly.  And if it's not your turn, you have nothing to do.
> 
> Realized I could make it where you compete against each other.  Now everyone is rolling dice on every turn.  And also, because everyone increases in power at the same rate, the difficulty scales automatically.  So it will be easier to design and more fun to play.



Jinx!

I too have a board game idea sitting around unfinished .

Mine was a space fleet battle game. The rules are finished but I have to build and play test it and I make toddler macaroni pictures look like master craftsmanship so it's on hold for a while.


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## DaveB (Nov 17, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> So.... you're basically playing AD&D with everybody using the Monk class.


NEEEERRRRRRRRDDD!!!

(Pushes his LARPing gear under the bed).


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 17, 2018)

DaveB said:


> NEEEERRRRRRRRDDD!!!
> 
> (Pushes his LARPing gear under the bed).



I'll have you know I played D&D starting with the original basic edition. I embrace my nerdness.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> *This post is mostly a thought experiment.*
> 
> Thought that crossed my mind based on a post in the main forum.  Taekwondo is "the kicking art" according to many.  Honestly, aside from Wushu and other demonstration-based arts, I think Capoeira is the only other art that emphasizes kicks as much as Taekwondo.  This becomes more true in WT-sparring, where kicking is about the only way to score points.
> 
> ...


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

I like your ideas, but please understand I do not look at Taekwondo as a sport. I believe forms if done right develops balance and precision of body movement. I like the idea of new kicking forms, but I think they should be advance forms for black belts. 
I watched a school recently that students did not do the basic forms well and all of them were off balance when kicking. 
Example: a simple front snap kick: foot in wrong position, planted leg not bent, did not move the hips forward, and leg went to the ground not back in ready position. therefore they lost range, power, and Balance.
I am sorry I got off on a tangent.


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