# Knee problem - can I still train?



## 05u (Mar 22, 2019)

I found out through my doctor that I have no cartilage in my knee - it's gone. That means any bending or running will be raw bone-on-bone contact and it will hurt badly, like it does now. I have pain going up stairs and going down stairs. I can't even run (properly) anymore. My knee is like thin ice - any sudden movement will make me collapse to the floor.

Can I still train MMA in this medical state?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 22, 2019)

Ask your doctor, you went to see him/her about your knee, ask the person who has the medical training and background to answer the question. DOn't ask a bunch of faceless nameless martial artists on a web forum who may or may not have any medical back ground at all.


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## dvcochran (Mar 22, 2019)

I have been in your shoes for about 5 years now. The pain is something a person definitely has to get used to if they plan to work out. If you work at building the muscles around the joint it will help tremendously. That was/is a tough process for me to go through and maintain. But it will reduce the knee pain. There are some movements I just don't do anymore because I know they will inflame my knees, landing hard on one leg for example. It is imperative that you do quality exercises that do not inflame the knee in the process. I do take a NSAID called Diclofenac that really helps with the inflammation. 
All that said, I encourage you to workout. You will have to figure out the things that you should not do or change the way you do them. Getting older sucks so you will have to work a little harder to fend against it.


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## jobo (Mar 22, 2019)

05u said:


> I found out through my doctor that I have no cartilage in my knee - it's gone. That means any bending or running will be raw bone-on-bone contact and it will hurt badly, like it does now. I have pain going up stairs and going down stairs. I can't even run (properly) anymore. My knee is like thin ice - any sudden movement will make me collapse to the floor.
> 
> Can I still train MMA in this medical state?


have you actually had a scan on this ? doctors sometimes say random things, then get some rehabilitation exercises,  cartilage will repair its self if you encourage blood flow, perhaps not to how it was, but certainly a lot better. as a general rule of thumb,  dont do things that result in you collapsing to the floor in screaming agony. that's not helping.


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## JR 137 (Mar 22, 2019)

Cartilage in the knee will NOT repair itself. Meniscus nor articulations cartilage.

There are ways to manage the symptoms, but no way to actually fix it other than surgically. If it’s a meniscus, the meniscus typically gets shaved down surgically. If it’s articular cartilage, you wait until it’s to the point of knee replacement. In the meantime there are anti-inflammatories and injections.

If anyone can figure out how to heal cartilage reliably, especially in the knees, hips and shoulders, they’ll be an incredibly wealthy person.


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2019)

As one who has been your position. Have had total replacement of both knees.
It really depends on your pain tolerance and desire. I received Synvisc injections for 6 years prior to having the replacements. I continued to run 6 days a week, training in Muay Thai, Combat Submission Wrestling, BJJ, Wing Chun and Kali. 
Painful? Yes. Sitting down and attempting to stand was extremely painful. Stairs...Hell No! But I continued until my left knee had gotten to the point I could not straighten it at all. Was bent approx 22 degrees.
Since having both replacements I continue to train but certainly not at the level I was prior. Running is a no no other than a light jog from time to time. But I still kick, spar, wrestling and do just about anything I was doing prior.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2019)

I know two guys who competed with torn knees. 

In training they just give up positions that stress that joint.

Mabye only do some techniques one side. 

Things like that.


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Cartilage in the knee will NOT repair itself. Meniscus nor articulations cartilage.
> 
> There are ways to manage the symptoms, but no way to actually fix it other than surgically. If it’s a meniscus, the meniscus typically gets shaved down surgically. If it’s articular cartilage, you wait until it’s to the point of knee replacement. In the meantime there are anti-inflammatories and injections.
> 
> If anyone can figure out how to heal cartilage reliably, especially in the knees, hips and shoulders, they’ll be an incredibly wealthy person.


 how old is your qualification , it's like it's from the age of leeches

Knee Cartilage Repair: How One Patient Proved His Doctors Wrong


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> how old is your qualification , it's like it's from the age of leeches
> 
> Knee Cartilage Repair: How One Patient Proved His Doctors Wrong


Not the same thing. That’s the back of the knee cap, not inside the knee. Nice try though.


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Not the same thing. That’s the back of the knee cap, not inside the knee. Nice try though.


not the same thing in what way, you said cartilage can NOT heal its self, and that quotes studies that say your WRONG


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> not the same thing in what way, you said cartilage can NOT heal its self, and that quotes studies that say your WRONG


Read it again. I said ARTICULAR cartilage and meniscus. The first articular cartilage I mentioned in my post got autocorrected to “articulation cartilage” but that doesn’t matter. I also said cartilage “IN the knee.” The cartilage that article references is OUTSIDE the knee. The kneecap isn’t the knee joint itself. The knee joint is the femur and tibia. The kneecap and knee is a separate joint. 

Keep trying to be right though.


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Read it again. I said ARTICULAR cartilage and meniscus. The first articular cartilage I mentioned in my post got autocorrected to “articulation cartilage” but that doesn’t matter. I also said cartilage “IN the knee.” The cartilage that article references is OUTSIDE the knee. The kneecap isn’t the knee joint itself. The knee joint is the femur and tibia. The kneecap and knee is a separate joint.
> 
> Keep trying to be right though.


no you clearly said cartridge in the knee will not repair its self and clearly it will as you wrong in the general, there no reason to believe your correct in the specific,as to specific cartilage,  if cartilage repairs its self all cartridge will as its eer cartridge and made of the same stuff, unless you actually have some sstudies that disproves this, rather than some ill remember  fact you were told some decades ago.

as it is , based on past experience,you will bluster on insisting you correct and then start throwing insults about rather than admit you typed in error having not kept upto date with developments


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> how old is your qualification , it's like it's from the age of leeches
> 
> Knee Cartilage Repair: How One Patient Proved His Doctors Wrong





JR 137 said:


> Read it again. I said ARTICULAR cartilage and meniscus. The first articular cartilage I mentioned in my post got autocorrected to “articulation cartilage” but that doesn’t matter. I also said cartilage “IN the knee.” The cartilage that article references is OUTSIDE the knee. The kneecap isn’t the knee joint itself. The knee joint is the femur and tibia. The kneecap and knee is a separate joint.
> 
> Keep trying to be right though.


@JR 137 , to say the least I am skeptical of @jobo 's link. I have read a lot about joint damage from credible sources (like the Mayo Clinic, etc...)and have never seen anything that infers cartilage can repair itself or grows. I am certainly no expert, more like a sub-novice in that area. What is your opinion on the idea? If it in fact can repair itself, how is it done? I 100% believe you can improve joint health through exercise by strengthening the muscles and improving flexibility. But when a bone is damaged by wear or cartilage is simply worn away, can it be fixed?


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> no you clearly said cartridge in the knee will not repair its self and clearly it will as you wrong in the general, there no reason to believe your correct in the specific,as to specific cartilage,  if cartilage repairs its self all cartridge will as its eer cartridge and made of the same stuff, unless you actually have some sstudies that disproves this, rather than some ill remember  fact you were told some decades ago.
> 
> as it is , based on past experience,you will bluster on insisting you correct and then start throwing insults about rather than admit you typed in error having not kept upto date with developments


So if you know this miracle cure, spell it out. How exactly is it done?


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## jobo (Mar 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> So if you know this miracle cure, spell it out. How exactly is it done?


read the link, it has links to the studies in question, I can't do more 7nless 8 hop on a plane and come round and read it to you


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2019)

jobo said:


> no you clearly said cartridge in the knee will not repair its self and clearly it will as you wrong in the general, there no reason to believe your correct in the specific,as to specific cartilage,  if cartilage repairs its self all cartridge will as its eer cartridge and made of the same stuff, unless you actually have some sstudies that disproves this, rather than some ill remember  fact you were told some decades ago.
> 
> as it is , based on past experience,you will bluster on insisting you correct and then start throwing insults about rather than admit you typed in error having not kept upto date with developments


Put the shovel down and walk away. The kneecap isn’t in the knee, is it? Nope. It’s outside the knee. It glides over the knee. It’s not inside the knee joint capsule. Look it up.

And yes, there are different types of cartilage. Look it up. You’re quoting an article about chonrdomalacia patella. I’ve treated it a million times. It’s certainly no secret that that particular cartilage repairs itself over time.

I made sure in my first post I wrote cartilage in the knee. I almost said cartilage doesn’t repair itself, but then I fixed it before I finished the sentence.

Try again.

Edit: Something may be misleading in my post, so I’ll clear it up hopefully. The cartilage on the back of the kneecap and inside the knee are both hyaline cartilage. However, the cartilage on the kneecap heals due to better blood supply, different stresses on it, and a far better cell to extracellular matrix ratio. If you were to compare cartilage from both areas under a good enough microscope, you’d see differences.


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> @JR 137 , to say the least I am skeptical of @jobo 's link. I have read a lot about joint damage from credible sources (like the Mayo Clinic, etc...)and have never seen anything that infers cartilage can repair itself or grows. I am certainly no expert, more like a sub-novice in that area. What is your opinion on the idea? If it in fact can repair itself, how is it done? I 100% believe you can improve joint health through exercise by strengthening the muscles and improving flexibility. But when a bone is damaged by wear or cartilage is simply worn away, can it be fixed?


Cartilage on the back of the kneecap can repair itself, as @jobo ’s article states. I’ve rehabbed a ton of chondromalacia injuries. It’s an overuse injury where the cartilage on the back of the kneecap wears down. Depending on many factors, it can range to irritating for a few weeks to needing surgical repair. I dealt with college athletes and currently high school athletes, so of course my experience with it won’t be all encompassing. Younger and fitter athletes will heal faster, that’s just the nature of things. I treated chondromalacia with some OTC anti-inflammatories and using pre-wrap to make a strap of sorts that lifts up the kneecap. The same thing as those patellar tendon knee straps. Heat, ice, anti-inflammatories, and the strap took care of most cases. The longer it went on, the doc may have prescribed some stronger meds.

Older people will have a tougher time with chondromalacia. Some will heal, others won’t. I’m assuming a bigger factor in healing this injury is the way the patella tracks. If it’s naturally too far medial or lateral, there’s greater stress that’ll play a role.

But that’s the kneecap. That’s not inside the knee joint where Jobo is having a ridiculous time comprehending the difference for some reason. Articular cartilage inside the knee joint (on the surface of the tibia and femur) and the meniscuses (meniscuii?) won’t heal. Very, very select parts of the meniscus have been known to heal, but they’re not typical places.

You can absolutely relieve pain caused by the articular cartilage and/or meniscus through strengthening and the like, it’s not fixing the actual damage; it’s taking stress off of the damage. It’s like taking ibuprofen for a fever caused by infection - it’ll bring the fever down, but it won’t kill the bacteria/virus causing the fever. If the damage to the knee isn’t severe, strengthening it could be all you ever need. If it’s severe, not amount of strengthening nor anything else will help. Often enough slight damage will get worse as time goes by; standing, walking, running, etc. all cause damage. As the years add up, sometimes the damage gets more and more until it’s unbearable and needs to be fixed surgically.

Edit: But also if the damage is in the right place, or better yet wrong place, no amount of rehab is going to help. Certain meniscus tears will cause issues regardless of how strong the knee is, for example.


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