# Datu Hartman's seminar in Portland



## Bob (Feb 3, 2002)

I just wanted to say Thank you to Datu Hartman for sharing today, and to D Wright for hosting the seminar. 
It is amazing that after seeing and practicing Modern Arnis for so long that it is still possible to learn something new. 
Datu Hartman showed a variety of basics which is always good, but it was great to see it presented with a different flair and flavor. 
I picked up a lot of new stuff to think about and practice, as well as refreshing the old stuff that I had forgotten about.

Thanks again Datu H. and D

Bob


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## Pappy Geo (Feb 3, 2002)

A very enjoyable seminar and great opportunity for making new friends. Particularly enjoyed the Tapi Tapi stick lock flow! Thank you Datu Hartman for sharing your knowledge and thanks to the gracious hosts Mr. & Mrs. Wright for making all this happen. 

Dinnelle Wright receive an absolutely beautiful certification from Datu Hartman in his organization, receritfiying her previous ranking in Modern Arnis from Grandmaster Presas long ago.

It was awesome having two Datus, Professor Trigg and Guros Dan Anderson and Jim Martin all in the same room, wait till you see the pictures!

Pappy Geo


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## DWright (Feb 4, 2002)

Thank you to all who attended the Portland Seminar.  I enjoyed meeting all of you.  Thank you Datu Hartman for your instruction in the Art I love.

 Datu Hartman presented some great material.  Including cane work, and knife work.  Students got a true taste of the Art.

As previously mentioned many top names of the art stopped by to pay their respects to Datu Hartman. We  even had Senior Master Dan Anderson join us for our training sessions.

This seminar brought together many people who have not seen one another for many years.  Not wishing to miss the opportunity I have scheduled an East meets West Seminar,  Featuring Senior Master Dan Anderson, and Datu Tim Hartman in Portland.
Tentitive date June 29th, 2002.

At the close of the Seminar Datu Hartman presented me with a certificate reissuing my rank previously granted by Professor Presas.  It was a great honor.   As mentioned in previous threads,  words cannont describe the certificate.  It is genuinely a work of Art.                                                                              Datu Hartman-   Thank you


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## no fefe (Feb 4, 2002)

Thanks to Datu Hartman. The Tapi-Tapi was fun to play with I always enjoy going to Modern Arnis seminars, seeing the different schools and watching people move.

Robert K


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## Pugsly (Feb 4, 2002)

I was concerned about attending Datu Hartmans seminar because so many big named Arnis players were supposed to attend.  That didn't seem to be a problem.  The training was fun, and the knife disarms, and fighting techniques were brutal.  It was pretty cool.

I was impressed with the professionalism and presentation of Datu Hartman.  Even with the many high ranked visitors who kept coming and going he maintained a training schedule.  

It was unfortunate that more of the leaders of this art didn't join in the training instead of just visiting in the entry during our training times.   It would have been an experience to those just starting the Art.  

I look forward to the next Portland Seminar.   Maybe it could be longer.  It seemed at the end we were pressed for time.


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## bde (Feb 4, 2002)

This was my first seminar and if they are all like this I hope it won't be my last. The instruction was great! only problem I found was the time went too fast. 
 Thankyou Datu Hartman!


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## BWright (Feb 4, 2002)

The seminar was great! Learned some neat cane traps and knife work. I can't wait till the next time.  
   Really enjoyed meeting people form other schools and finally seeing who some of the martialtalk faces are. Hope to see you all again soon.
   Id like to say thank you to Datu Hartman for the instruction. Thank you also to the hosts Dinnelle Wright and Mish Handwerker. It was also great to see Senior Master Dan Anderson on the floor as well.

Brian


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## Ren (Feb 4, 2002)

I enjoyed the seminar, and learned some neat moves.  Thank you to everyone who made the seminar possible.

This was my first seminar, and it is outside my own art.
I am curious about a few things that I saw at the seminar.

First,  when Mr. Hartman was introduced to the group Ms. Wright welcomed Mr. Hartman, and then called for courtesy.  Is it appropriate to use the courtesy of my own art?

Second,  after Mr. Hartman demonstrated a technique, and told everyone to practice it.  Ms. Wright and Guro Anderson both said "SIR" or "YES SIR" this was repeated by them throughout the seminar.  However, no one else did.  I have never seen this before.  Is this from a highly disiplined style?  If so what?

Third,  Ms. Wright referred to  Mr. Hartman as Datu, but referred to Datu Warden as Mr. or Sir.  Why the difference?


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## arnisador (Feb 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Ren _
> *First,  when Mr. Hartman was introduced to the group Ms. Wright welcomed Mr. Hartman, and then called for courtesy.  Is it appropriate to use the courtesy of my own art?*



I wasn't at the seminar and certainly can't answer for either Ms. Wright or Mr. Hartman but I'll answer with my own perspective on the matter. I don't think it's at all inappropriate to use yoru own art's method of showing respect at a seminar--how oculd you be expected to know the system at the seminar? You shouldn't feel at all out-of-pladce because of this. Many will continue to use their own art's bow or what-have-you even after they learn the seminar host's method and I think this is fine. It's only if you study that person's style that switching is important.

In fact, I recall thinking how neat it was at arnis seminars to see how very _many_ styles were represented by seeing how many different forms of courtesy were used.



> *
> Second,  after Mr. Hartman demonstrated a technique, and told everyone to practice it.  Ms. Wright and Guro Anderson both said "SIR" or "YES SIR" this was repeated by them throughout the seminar.  However, no one else did.  I have never seen this before.  Is this from a highly disiplined style?  If so what?*



Modern arnis is not a highly disciplined style but people come from many backgrounds and have many approaches. I always use "Sir/Yes Sir" or "Ma'am/Yes Ma'am" until I am discouraged from doing so by the instructor if he or she is uncomfortable with it, but that's a legacy of my karate training. This may well be the case with some others you saw. This is the same as the first question--it's a matter of how you show respect. Mr. Hartman himself is fairly informal.



> *
> Third,  Ms. Wright referred to  Mr. Hartman as Datu, but referred to Datu Warden as Mr. or Sir.  Why the difference? *



Not having been there, I cannot comment.


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## DWright (Feb 5, 2002)

In response to Rens post I would like to deal with each issue one at a time:

This is how I was taught by my Sensei:

1.  When attending a seminar.  Courtesy to the Master should be done in your style.  Seminars attract many different practitioners from many different Arts.  It is not expected that you know the seminar instructors courtesy.  

2.  As for myself saying "Sir/Yes Sir".  I have done this since the beginning of my Karate training.  It is a sign of respect.  It also lets the instructor know that I have understood the instructions.

Senior Master Anderson was an instructor at every seminar and summer camp that I attended on the West Coast in the 80's.  We extended the same respect to Professor Presas.  I will extend that courtesy at each event I attend no matter who is at the front of the room.

3.  I'm afraid my answer here will make a few people mad.  That is not my intent.  I did not refer to Mr. Warden as Datu, because he was not on the mat.  I was visiting with him about old times. 
No disrespect was intended.  When I asked him to come up to the front of the room at the close of the seminar I refered to him as Datu Warden.  He was on the mat.  

The same held true with the other guests that were not on the mats.  Mr. or Sir was used until they entered the training area.
Mr. Hartman was the instructor, and was refered to as Datu.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 5, 2002)

Makes sense to me.  I see no intent of a slight when the system used is consistant.  Wish I coulda made the seminar... From everything I've heard, it was excellent!

:asian:


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## DWright (Feb 5, 2002)

Kaith,

You heard right.  That seminar was a blast!  

Hope to see you at the next one!


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## Cthulhu (Feb 5, 2002)

Again, us lowly folk in the Southeast U.S. are left out. 

I'm glad everybody else got to have a good time, though 

Cthulhu

PS - when I train with a TKD instructor I know, I bow my way in his class.  A gung fu stylist in the class bows his way.  Go with what you know 

Cthulhu


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## jaybacca72 (Feb 6, 2002)

it is funny you guys brought up the subject of bowing because when datu tim and i are on the floor together demonstrating when are technique is done he salutes me with a kenpo salutation and i hit him with an arnis one it is actually pretty funny if you see it in person considering iam primarily a kenpo man and he is arnis.
later
jay


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## Pappy Geo (Feb 7, 2002)

I have been swamped this week and didn't have time to follow up here as Pappy Geo & wife is leaving the cold north country for the warm southwest in his motorhome this coming Sunday for 3 weeks!

Datu Worden's presence at the seminar was multipurpose, not only was it his desire to meet Datu Hartman but had seminar arrangements to review with Professor Trigg and Guru Jim Martin plus he had to wait for me as I was riding with him. That is how and why so many international Martial Arts leaders were in the same room for so long. It was a great photo opportunity!

To Pugsly: The reasons why the other senior instructors didn't enter the floor during class is simply this: it was Datu Hartman's seminar and in no way would it be ethical for them to interfere. They just happen to be there.  Some of Datu Worden's homeboy newer senior students, Bob, Robert and myself helped were we could and when appropriate without interfering. Some of his other more senior students from all over the world have gone on there own even to the extend of becoming famous in their own right like Jim Keating and others.

After the seminar Datu Worden gifted Datu Hartman with a Timberline Wortac, and Datu Hartman reciprocated with a training knife symbolic in bonding of the Modern Arnis family.

In a words of gratitude Datu Hartman and Master Dan Anderson acknowledged the predecessors to Modern Arnis via Prof. Leonard Trigg who was the first to bring Prof. Presas to the US (more on Prof. Trigg at: kellyworden.com -- water &steel -- instructors bio), Datu Worden for being the first North American Datu laying the ground work for others to reach this goal. Datu Hartman encouraging the bonding of the Modern Arnis family together knowing there will be differences but still are brothers and sisters.

This why it turned out to be more than a seminar and I hope this corrects some of the confusion.

Pappy Geo


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## DWright (Feb 8, 2002)

I have about 200 photos to filter thru, but I found two that I would like to share.

This picture is of Datu Hartman with 4 of the top ranked Arnis players on the West Coast.  I had a professional enlargement made for myself and it is nice.  I had not seen the West Coast guys in many years.

I also had professional enlargements made of the group photo. It is exellect.  If anyone would like copies of these photos let me know by personal e-mail.  The kid that did the work is now my student, and promised me a good deal on future photos.


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## DWright (Feb 8, 2002)

I couldn't attach two photos to the last post, so here it is.
This one is all ego.  A how did I get here? photo.

(Pappy Geo, thanks for all the photos. Nice! I especially like the one of us.)


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## Dan Anderson (Feb 9, 2002)

Hi folks.  Just wanted to let you know that I had a good time at the seminar.  Tim made a fine presentation of Modern Arnis and everybody learned.  I was especially pleased to see both Kelly and Leonard Trigg there.  I have known both of them for quite some time.  All for now.
So sez Dan


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## Dieter (Feb 9, 2002)

Just out of curiosity: how many people participated at the seminar?

Dieter


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## no fefe (Feb 9, 2002)

I think about 14 people.

Robert K.


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## DWright (Feb 9, 2002)

The exact count was 17 actively training, but 19 were registered and in attendance.  This does not include Mr. Hartman, or the 4 guests that were also there.


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## arnisador (Feb 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> *The exact count was 17 actively training, but 19 were registered and in attendance.  This does not include Mr. Hartman*



I don't think I understand then--what were the other two doing?


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## DWright (Feb 9, 2002)

Physical limitations did not allow for them to train.  One person reinjured a shoulder on the first technique, and was very interested in staying on the floor to watch.

The other trained as much as possible, but ended up bowing out and helping out with adminstrative tasks.

Just for the record.  They were offered refunds by me, but both refused, because they wanted to stay on the floor and watch.


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## Bob (Feb 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Pappy Geo _
> 
> After the seminar Datu Worden gifted Datu Hartman with a Timberline Wortac, and Datu Hartman reciprocated with a training knife symbolic in bonding of the Modern Arnis family.
> [/B]



Datu Hartman
 How do you like the Wortac??? Its a monster isn't it!!!!!! It has a different feel to it then the Emerson. The Emerson is one tough blade, but I really like the girth and weight of the Wortac, and the blade does leave a nasty mark.............I think the two together would make a an excellent team........

Bob


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Feb 10, 2002)

How's everyone doing? It's been a very hectic week for me. Yesterday I got some much needed R&R, shooting people (Paint Ball)!

First of all I would like to thank Mrs. Wright for hosting this event. I think she did a wonderful job pulling things together. I'm looking forward to returning in June to teach a joint seminar with Dan Anderson.

It was nice to finally meet Datu Worden face to face and a pleasure to meet Prof Trigg. I didn't know that Trigg was the first to bring Remy and Ernesto Presas to the Portland area. 

I had a very positive feeling about my trip and looking forward to many more visits in the future. 

Worden and I exchanged knives at the end of the seminar and I must agree with you Bob, It's alot of knife! Bigger than I usually carry, but it grows on you. It's surprising how well a knife of it's size can fit in your pocket.

On a side note, I would like to welcome Dan Anderson to Martial Talk. It is good to see more of the Modern Arnis people becoming involved in our forum. It would be nice to see members of all the Modern Arnis groups represented.

When Kaith was putting this site together I suggested that there would be a Modern Arnis section for people to ask questions and share information no matter who they were. I feel that we have accomplished this as a group. I look forward to further sharing and growing together.

Respectfully yours,
Datu Tim Hartman
Remy A. Presas' Modern Arnis


:asian:


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