# WTF is this



## Kinghercules (Sep 13, 2012)

What is this?
Seriously?


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## sfs982000 (Sep 13, 2012)

I agree WTF was that???


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## rlobrecht (Sep 13, 2012)

It looks like a Little Ninjas class.


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## crushing (Sep 13, 2012)

Looks like a Black Belt Academy.  I'll tell you what about that second video.  It took an incredible amount of endurance and discpline for the crowd to continue their applause for twice as long as the little kicking drill lasted.


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## dancingalone (Sep 13, 2012)

I believe these folks are from GM Duk Sung Son's lineage.  They acquired a habit of performing patterns as quickly as possible which makes them abrupt and un-unified with their bodily movement.

<shrugs>  Not my cup of tea, but why make fun of them?  They seem to be sincere in their training, even if it isn't what most taekwondoin strive for.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 13, 2012)

I sort of agree.  I don't want to be too judgemental, but a few observations:

That doesn't look very effective based on my experiences. 

Oh my there are a lot of black belts there. 

Those combinations are very fast.  No, not fast. Hasty.  Muscular.  Not in a good way, but muscle against muscle at the cost of composure.  Falling over looks to be a real and present danger most of the time, as does hernia, or even punching one's own limbs. 

Even the single isolated movements show a paucity of mechanical understanding commensurate with always practicing at maximum haste from day one i.e. very little

I would never train there. 

Gnarlie


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## eliteguardian (Sep 13, 2012)

Their sparring is... odd? It looks like they were just trading kicks really. Their patterns are very quick and strangely un-unified for what appears to be a demonstration.


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## Takai (Sep 13, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> I sort of agree.  I don't want to be too judgemental, but a few observations:
> 
> That doesn't look very effective based on my experiences.



I think that says it all. On the upside they are actually getting off the couch and doing....something.


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## arnisador (Sep 13, 2012)

They spar as Pokemon fight--my turn, your turn, my turn...

I wondered if the head instructor is showing the effects of age.


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## MAist25 (Sep 13, 2012)

Yes, we have a group that trains under this organization at my college. They are Chung Do Kwan I believe. To be honest, I was not at all impressed by them. They practice their poomse extremely fast just like the video and they spar completely non-contact. To me they look like an extremely soft style of TKD, more of a fun activity type of thing. Not exactly my cup of tea when it comes to training.


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## granfire (Sep 13, 2012)

Naked gun 44 1/4th?

No two people had the same stance staring...the form within the form was huh?

And I am not commenting on the speed, though I remember when I had the wee ones I used to tell them that forms are not a race....

What a hot mess.


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## Haakon (Sep 13, 2012)

I had my laptop on mute when watching those, and for some reason the Benny Hill theme kept running through my mind watching the second one.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 14, 2012)

Disclosure: I know nothing of these people or what they are supposed to be doing. 

Now, look at the second vid from another perspective. (Yes, I know it's labeled "Freestyle")  2 People one perhaps late 50's or better and the other perhaps near age 70.  They are going to do a demonstration of exchanging / alternating / taking turns (Not sparring) with roundhouse kicks waist level and below. 

Now, I am sure many of us have seen exceptional physical specimens due technique.  Consider the average specimen of this age.  Check out the speed of movement for the drill considering their age.  Thoughts?


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## Gnarlie (Sep 14, 2012)

I did think about their age, until I noticed there are videos of much younger guys doing exactly the same things in the same way on the same channel. 

I think these older guys are doing it the way it's meant to be done for that school. 

That said, the 'headmaster'  has run the NY marathon 27 times, which is more than I have done.  I concede that maybe these older fellows know something I don't....but I don't like the way it looks when they do Taekwondo. 

Gnarlie


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 14, 2012)

To me, it is a statement that people are wrong to think "black belt = good martial artist".  It shows that a black belt is someone who has been around for X years, paid his money, and tested.  It says absolutely NOTHING about ability. Frankly, I think I was more skilled at kicking when I was a white belt.

I'll give some leniency for age, but not enough to call the guy in the video 4th dan.


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## Gnarlie (Sep 14, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> To me, it is a statement that people are wrong to think "black belt = good martial artist".  It shows that a black belt is someone who has been around for X years, paid his money, and tested.  It says absolutely NOTHING about ability. Frankly, I think I was more skilled at kicking when I was a white belt.
> 
> I'll give some leniency for age, but not enough to call the guy in the video 4th dan.



According to the website, the main guy in these vids seems to be a 9th dan... 

Gnarlie


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## Kinghercules (Sep 14, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> To me, it is a statement that people are wrong to think "black belt = good martial artist".  It shows that a black belt is someone who has been around for X years, paid his money, and tested.  It says absolutely NOTHING about ability. Frankly, I think I was more skilled at kicking when I was a white belt.
> 
> I'll give some leniency for age, but not enough to call the guy in the video 4th dan.



I agree.


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## Kinghercules (Sep 14, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> Yes, we have a group that trains under this organization at my college. They are Chung Do Kwan I believe. To be honest, I was not at all impressed by them. They practice their poomse extremely fast just like the video and they spar completely non-contact. To me they look like an extremely soft style of TKD, more of a fun activity type of thing. Not exactly my cup of tea when it comes to training.




Soft?
More like wack.


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## outsider0506 (Sep 14, 2012)

Can anyone identify the forms they are doing in their videos?

I saw one video on that YouTube channel that looked like a Pyong-An/Pinan/Heian form, but I have never seen the rest of the ones they identify as black belt forms. I tried looking up the names of those forms on Google, but didn't have any luck.


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## sopraisso (Sep 14, 2012)

Well, I'm impressed with the movements of the guys in their ages. I appreciate that. As other people said, at least they're training in something, although I don't think this kind of training is best suited for their ages.

But what also catched my attention was to see, in the second vid, that the guys did receive some round kicks with down blocks directly against the kicks movement (I mean, against the shin bone). I think this should be very dangerous if attempted for real. It's interesting, too, that I've heard of many discussions here about the application of down block (even that it was not meant to be a block). Some people sustained that it should defend a kick, but never a round kick -- instead, for example, it would receive a front kick -- what means the hand or forearm wouldn't directly receive full impact of the kick movement. So we have to agree that, if down block was never meant to be used like that (directly against the shin bone), it doesn't mean some people never teach it -- that's just what they did in some parts of the video. Honestly, I hardly believe this is an isolate case.


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## arnisador (Sep 14, 2012)

They were staring at one another's feet and had their hands in down-block position the whole time--maybe it works better when you know what's coming (virtually all round kicks).


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## sopraisso (Sep 14, 2012)

arnisador said:


> They were staring at one another's feet and had their hands in down-block position the whole time--maybe it works better when you know what's coming (virtually all round kicks).



Can't help to find funny that there was no need to block anything from that distance! 

Well, we have to remember it was a demo, anyway. But you see, it looks like a bad idea for the technique application. Even knowing the round kick was coming, I wouldn't try to stop it with a down block, putting at risk my hand or forearm. =/


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 14, 2012)

sopraisso said:


> But what also catched my attention was to see, in the second vid, that the guys did receive some round kicks with down blocks directly against the kicks movement (I mean, against the shin bone). I think this should be very dangerous if attempted for real.



If you consider that early training included forgiing the blocking as well as attacking surfaces includinmg the forearm bones, does your statement remain the same?


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## rainesr (Sep 14, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> Yes, we have a group that trains under this organization at my college. They are Chung Do Kwan I believe. To be honest, I was not at all impressed by them. They practice their poomse extremely fast just like the video and they spar completely non-contact. To me they look like an extremely soft style of TKD, more of a fun activity type of thing. Not exactly my cup of tea when it comes to training.



They claim to be from Chung Do Kwan on their web site too, but this is nothing like the Chung Do Kwan guys I worked out with. This is very creepy looking.

I just watched their Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, it looks like an old movie being played just a little too fast. My TSD instructors heads would explode if I did that. I can't even imagine the look of disbelief on their faces.

~Rob


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 14, 2012)

sopraisso said:


> Kinghercules said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


What I saw in both videos was not my cup of tea.

Regardless, I have better things to do than to find videos of other people and post them for the express purpose of making fun of them on an MA forum.


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## granfire (Sep 14, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What I saw in both videos was not my cup of tea.
> 
> Regardless, I have better things to do than to find videos of other people and post them for the express purpose of making fun of them on an MA forum.



well, since it is TKD they are doing (sort of) and this is a TKD site...it stands to reason that their technique would be up for discussion.

After all, we did not go around and secretly video them to ridicule, they put it up to....I don't know, show off their stuff?
Once it's on Youtube, it is pretty much fair game.


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## sopraisso (Sep 15, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> If you consider that early training included forgiing the blocking as well as attacking surfaces includinmg the forearm bones, does your statement remain the same?



Master Weiss, I've heard about forearm fortification and work on building bone density. Surely this adds new possibilities. I can't hide, anyway, that I've also heard of other opinions about possible applications of down block ("alternative applications"), which have seemed interesting to me. Anyway, I don't have a definite opinion on this and I really have no personal experience or even enough theoretical martial knowledge to have such an immutable opinion on this.  I've brought the matter mainly because in previous discussions I've seen some debate about down block application, and despite various disagreements, there seemed to be a consensus on the point I mentioned -- that the block shouldn't be used with forearm against shin bone in a round kick. Daniel's comment, in other hand, refers to an application that I've seen to be more usually accepted (striking the back of the kicking foot).



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Watched the second video several times.  He isn't blocking against the  shin bone, but striking the back of the kicking leg with his pal-mok.
> 
> What I saw in both videos was not my cup of tea.
> 
> Regardless, I have better things to do than to find videos of other people and post them for the express purpose of making fun of them on an MA forum.



Dear Daniel, I believe most of the times the men in the video really do just the way you said. But after downloading the vid in HD resolution (720p) and watching parts in slow motion, I still have the strong impression that they <also> defend with forearm against shin bone. Maybe it wasn't exactly on purpose, I don't know. But I believe if you watch the video carefully, you will notice this, too. To show you what I'm saying, look at the images below. They correspond to the very first down blocks used by both men -- both seem to have blocked the way I said. Remember however I didn't say they defend this way all the time, I notice they also defend striking the back of the kicking leg, too, the way you described. I edited the images, once in HD the original pictures would be too big and heavy.


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## Master Dan (Sep 15, 2012)

These people are choosing to get off the couch and do something positive. I think a compastionate good master could help them with a better understanding and enjoyment of what they are doing which would help with some very basic issues. Some people I can see have health limitations issues do we poke fun of handicapped or other challenged people participating. If these people by thier participation are helping others and kids God Bless Them one and all. I am impressed with the multiple boxes of video so easy to play but the negative side of Youtube is exposure to the negative only looking to dimean or poke fun. We should all look to help those less fortunate in good instructors not just put them down.

In general the Westernization and commercialization of MA has wattered down much but also has done a great good for many youth and wide range of people that would have never participated if training was still only conducted like 1960 or 1970? 

I have one black belt good instructor good coach but very arthritic cannot kick to the solar plexes so what I told him stop trying to do bad raising kicks do good penetrating kicks to specific Conception 3-6 or lower at Inguinal Crease Cluster or the leg point meridians. Who does a 60 or 70 year old person need to impress Certainly not Youtube judges??


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## Gorilla (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't get this thread...if you don't like what they do....don't train with them...they seem to enjoy it....who cares!!!!!


What is with the title to the thread?

If some people from the past had put up a thread like this about another style you guys would have had a cow and reported him!

Wow!!!!!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 15, 2012)

granfire said:


> well, since it is TKD they are doing (sort of) and this is a TKD site...it stands to reason that their technique would be up for discussion.
> 
> After all, we did not go around and secretly video them to ridicule, they put it up to....I don't know, show off their stuff?
> Once it's on Youtube, it is pretty much fair game.


Sure.  Click dislike on the video and leave a comment as to why.  No need to link it/post it elsewhere for the express purpose of having something to poke fun at.

Many taekwondoin, regardless of federation or association like to invoke the tenets that General Choi promoted.  One of those is courtesy.  Do you consider using the work of others _for the express purpose of holding it up to mock_ courteous?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 15, 2012)

sopraisso said:


> Dear Daniel, I believe most of the times the men in the video really do just the way you said. But after downloading the vid in HD resolution (720p) and watching parts in slow motion, I still have the strong impression that they <also> defend with forearm against shin bone. Maybe it wasn't exactly on purpose, I don't know. But I believe if you watch the video carefully, you will notice this, too. To show you what I'm saying, look at the images below. They correspond to the very first down blocks used by both men -- both seem to have blocked the way I said. Remember however I didn't say they defend this way all the time, I notice they also defend striking the back of the kicking leg, too, the way you described. I edited the images, once in HD the original pictures would be too big and heavy.



I'm not sure how you got this quote: I edited all of that out at 11:57 and your post is not until 2:00.  I edited it out because I saw what you saw after watching the beginning another five times to be sure.

Apparently, the edit feature here is slow enough on the draw as to be pointless.  Especially if it leaves edited out material into the next day.  

Regardless, as I said in my final, it is not my cup of tea, nor do I have anything to say in defense of the videos; there are plenty of things that I see in both that I would consider to be trained in bad habits.  But I'm not going to use their video as a means of bolstering my self esteem by holding it up for everyone to mock either.


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## arnisador (Sep 15, 2012)

Surely this is fair game for discussion here--I agree that we should stay away from mockery, but not from criticism.


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## Gentle Fist (Sep 15, 2012)

as long as they are having fun I guess


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## Master Dan (Sep 15, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I don't get this thread...if you don't like what they do....don't train with them...they seem to enjoy it....who cares!!!!!
> 
> 
> What is with the title to the thread?
> ...



I agree while it can be argued yes we can talk al day about the quality of technique in these individuals the OP starts out with a slam on WTF the premise is that all WTF looks like this? There are no bad styles only poor instructors so to make the claim that a style or entire organization is at best uneducated or imature. Early 70's I visited a very nice Shotokan DoJo to watch class never seen it before and surmized that all Shotokan was bad after watching those people? Obviously wrong errors of youth. 
I think people should consider being careful what they post on Youtube and even instructors if they or do not want some of thier students to be ridiculed should keep smart phones and other recording devices banned from certain events beyond still pictures.


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## Haakon (Sep 15, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> I agree while it can be argued yes we can talk al day about the quality of technique in these individuals the OP starts out with a slam on WTF the premise is that all WTF looks like this? There are no bad styles only poor instructors so to make the claim that a style or entire organization is at best uneducated or imature. Early 70's I visited a very nice Shotokan DoJo to watch class never seen it before and surmized that all Shotokan was bad after watching those people? Obviously wrong errors of youth.
> I think people should consider being careful what they post on Youtube and even instructors if they or do not want some of thier students to be ridiculed should keep smart phones and other recording devices banned from certain events beyond still pictures.



It wasn't a slam against TKD, it has nothing to do with the World TKD Federation (WTF), in this context WTF is short for What The F***.


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## chrispillertkd (Sep 15, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I believe these folks are from GM Duk Sung Son's lineage. They acquired a habit of performing patterns as quickly as possible which makes them abrupt and un-unified with their bodily movement.



This was my reaction when seeing the video and brings up an interesting point, for me. Taekwon-Do, as developed by Gen. Choi, focuses on putting the entire body into its techniques in order to get as much power as possible. I don't know that any KKW folks would disagree with that, either. Given that GM Son was, at one point, Chung Do Kwan Jang I find it interesting that he developed his style in what _appears_ to be a contradictory direction. While speed certainly plays a large part in power generation the isolated body mechanics would tend to work at cross purposes.

Pax,

Chris


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## granfire (Sep 15, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sure.  Click dislike on the video and leave a comment as to why.  No need to link it/post it elsewhere for the express purpose of having something to poke fun at.
> 
> Many taekwondoin, regardless of federation or association like to invoke the tenets that General Choi promoted.  One of those is courtesy.  Do you consider using the work of others _for the express purpose of holding it up to mock_ courteous?



I am sorry, but I do have to disagree with you on that one.

I mean, yes, there should be no making fun of the gentlemen (and the allowance for age does not count since there are a few younger guys in the back) but thee is a good deal of stuff that is open for serious discussion.

Aside from the speed.

Le me ask you this: if one of these distinguished BBs walked into your place tomorrow and demonstrated their abilities in above shown manner, what _would_ you tell them? (after you scraped your jaw off the floor, I am sure...)

The speed is one thing, but there is enough going on there that has me thinking sloppy technique. it starts with the fact that no two of the guys have the same stance and posture to begin with. 

The cheery guy in the front later on displays a kick with the foot at about a 45 degree angle. If he were to connect with anything half way solid, he's be breaking his toes and probably his foot to boot! 

I have seen similar display before: By people making fun of Martial Arts. 
Like Chris Farley in his Ninja movie, or every other one were somebody tries to show off their -Fu skillz they don't have. At least with Lamont Sanford it was funny. 

'They are getting off the couch' only reaches so far as argument. 

So far I think the discussion has been relatively respectful.


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## dancingalone (Sep 15, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Given that GM Son was, at one point, Chung Do Kwan Jang I find it interesting that he developed his style in what _appears_ to be a contradictory direction. While speed certainly plays a large part in power generation the isolated body mechanics would tend to work at cross purposes.



I don't think it was GM Son that introduced this particular idiosyncrasy.  There are other groups from his lineage that have more traditional mechanics, for example ChungDoKwan USA, so I am inclined to think possibly an American master came up with the idea.  If he did do it, it was introduced well after a series of black belts had been raised already.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 15, 2012)

granfire said:


> I am sorry, but I do have to disagree with you on that one.
> 
> I mean, yes, there should be no making fun of the gentlemen (and the allowance for age does not count since there are a few younger guys in the back) but thee is a good deal of stuff that is open for serious discussion.


I was referring mainly to the OP, not necessarily the discussion that followed, some of which was respectful and serious, some of which was not.

My point was that I have better things to do than to troll Youtube, find people who don't meet my standards, and then post it on another forum with a caption that is designed to invite derogatory commentary. 



granfire said:


> Aside from the speed.
> 
> Le me ask you this: if one of these distinguished BBs walked into your place tomorrow and demonstrated their abilities in above shown manner, what _would_ you tell them? (after you scraped your jaw off the floor, I am sure...)
> 
> ...


As I said, I offer no defense for the video, its content, or its participants; it is not my cup of tea for many of the reasons that you mentioned above.  As to what I would say to them?  Pleased to meet you.  Thank you for stopping by.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> Le me ask you this: if one of these distinguished BBs walked into your place tomorrow and demonstrated their abilities in above shown manner, what _would_ you tell them? (after you scraped your jaw off the floor, I am sure...)
> 
> .



My comment would have been something like "thank you very much" and move on to something else ASAP.


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## terryl965 (Sep 16, 2012)

Look sometimes video does not do justice to anybody real ability, I mean playing around for fun is not the same as self defense on the street. I am sure they enjoy what they are doing and to be honest here that is all that matters.

              One of the resons I stopped posting on here was all the crap people have to say without ever putting anything up about them. I for one am not the same fighter, workout guy I was twenty years ago, but I am still enjoying beijng able to do something inside my school. Teaching is great but being able to still jog, kick and punch even though it is not perfect or near perfect is good enough for me at this point and time in my life.

              Get off people backs and be thankful people still train at whatever ability they have anymore, we critisize to many kids in TKD, then we critisize the adults look bad, then we critisize those that critisize. When will we be able to say I can appreciate them for being out there doing what they can for as long as they can.

Try and have a wonderful lif eand rememberuntil you post yourself give some respect for those that do.


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## Master Dan (Sep 16, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Look sometimes video does not do justice to anybody real ability, I mean playing around for fun is not the same as self defense on the street. I am sure they enjoy what they are doing and to be honest here that is all that matters.
> 
> One of the resons I stopped posting on here was all the crap people have to say without ever putting anything up about them. I for one am not the same fighter, workout guy I was twenty years ago, but I am still enjoying beijng able to do something inside my school. Teaching is great but being able to still jog, kick and punch even though it is not perfect or near perfect is good enough for me at this point and time in my life.
> 
> ...



Sitting at a table judging PoomSe for the World Hanmadang we had many American adults of different sizes rank and ability one person obviously heavy but still doing well. The Korean master leaned over to me and goes Huh Nice Body? I turned to him and said Hanmadang is for everyone all ages all abilities Sport TKD is dying you want people to get up and participate in TKD pay you money shame on you.* I think the same comment to the OP also fits for the WTF is this? SHAME ON YOU Karma is Karma some day you may have the shoe on the other foot?
*


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## granfire (Sep 16, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> My comment would have been something like "thank you very much" and* move on to something else ASAP*.



yep


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## granfire (Sep 16, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Look sometimes video does not do justice to anybody real ability, I mean playing around for fun is not the same as self defense on the street. I am sure they enjoy what they are doing and to be honest here that is all that matters.
> 
> One of the resons I stopped posting on here was all the crap people have to say without ever putting anything up about them. I for one am not the same fighter, workout guy I was twenty years ago, but I am still enjoying beijng able to do something inside my school. Teaching is great but being able to still jog, kick and punch even though it is not perfect or near perfect is good enough for me at this point and time in my life.
> 
> ...



Just because there is one guy with snow on the top...

There are a LOT of younger guys in the back there. 

A friend of mine started TKD at the age of 61. 
She had never done anything remotely like that. Sure, she always worked hard, having been raised on a farm, etc, but nothing in this shape or form.
With bad artheritis and shot hips, she still could outdo those gentlemen in forms. 
And may I mention that 'our style' was by any means hard hitting. 

That display however pretty much flies in the face of everything remotely traditional. 

Don't get me wrong. A form performed at speed can be a thing of beauty.

But it should not look like a bunch of kids playing TKD after they have watched Bruce Lee movie.

The mechanics should be correct at bare minimum....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 16, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Try and have a wonderful life and remember *until you post yourself* give some respect for those that do.


Amen to that!


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## Manny (Sep 18, 2012)

Well mixed feelings here. Afther seen the vids I have to conclusions 1.-I don't like waht I saw and this is from the technical aspect and 2.-I liked what I see about regular old guys doing exercise and some kind of kicking martial art. In conclution, I think no matter wjhat you do to stay in shape or truying to be healthy in the 40+ years of your life.

I am not a perfect tkdoing, I have my flaws (many) and I am not bya any standars a super atlhete or super master about martial arts, my kicks are rtegular, some very good some very poor but what really likes me is that TKD/Martial Arts are something good to me and my health.

Manny


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## msmitht (Sep 21, 2012)

Hmm. I guess that is how they do it at their school. Not like anything i have seen before except for maybe Ed Parker kenpo. Not to my liking but i am a lowly 5 dan kkw/mdk. The bjj in me is laughing hysterically.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 21, 2013)

Bad technique that's what that was.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 21, 2013)

According to his website he is a 9th Dan.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 24, 2013)

My question would be:  what is gained by performing a kata in this fashion?  Looking at the various practitioners in the video, including the instructor, I see people off-balance.  I see kicks and strikes that just wouldn't work, as performed for the video, in a real altercation.  I don't see where a full understanding of the kata can be gained with their methodology.  Keeping in mind this is just a quick glimpse of their program, it makes me wonder what the rest of it is like?  But like my original question:  what is gained by performing a kata in this fashion?


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## Gorilla (Jan 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> According to his website he is a 9th Dan.



Everyone is a 9th Dan!


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> According to his website he is a 9th Dan.



Where are all those people who go on and on about rank being meaningless in martial arts?

Pax,

Chris


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 24, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> Where are all those people who go on and on about rank being meaningless in martial arts?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



This is a valid question.  How does rank have meaning outside of a specific school and perhaps an organization?  The measuring stick is made of rubber.  How can you compare someone that makes 1st Dan in TKD in a year or two against someone in a different art that takes five years?  Both may have given 100% effort, know the material but the ranking philosophy differs.  How can you compare a 5th Dan in a SD art that has survived the street but really wouldn't make it far in competiton?  Or on the flip side, someone that is a 5th Dan in a sport art that is very athletic and prosperous on the tourny circuit but may have his butt handed to him by a mugger?  The 9th Dan in the video, how does he stack up against a 9th Dan in your art?  What is the criteria for judging him good or bad?

Rank will never have a universal standard.  First you'd have to break it down by the focus of the art i.e. SD or sport.  Then you'd have to break it down further by associations.  Can anyone ever see GM's and masters taking a rank cut to have a universal standard in their art?  For example, let's just say TKD merged into one big happy family.  We'll even put aside the SD/sport aspect.  Now let's say the TKD is going to have just one...and only one GM and he's a 9th Dan.  Heck, let's ake him a 10th just to be even about it.  Now perhaps, since we're talking about TKD which is worldwide we alot a specific, set amount of 9th Dan's.  Perhaps we base it on the population of the country, but we make it a rather small, manageable number.  And so forth down the line with the number of Dans per grade increasing as we get lower on the scale and below the 'master level it is unlimited.  To enforce some sort of standard such as total TIG and TIA there will be folks that have to take a rank cut.  Anybody see this happening?  Nope.  Even if it were for the 'good of the art' and a 'healing and unifying action to bring TKD all together' yada yada.  Do you see anyone cutting rank and placing the art above their Dan number?  Perhaps a few.  But I'd say a very few.  And for that matter...who's the GM going to be?

Thus my point;  rank doesn't really matter outside of your own school and perhaps...and this is a perhaps, your own association.  

So when someone says, "I'm a black belt" you really have to think...what does that really mean?  

Does anyone think of the instructor in the video as a 9th Dan?  It would seem those in the video might.  Does this make him 'legite'?  Again, what is the measuring stick to be used?

Things that make you go, 'hmmmmm' :uhyeah:


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 25, 2013)

I have to admit that as I experience more and different things, stuff like this bothers me less and less. 

If his students like what they are learning, does it really matter if we think this guy is terrible? MA is subjective after all.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 25, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is a valid question.  How does rank have meaning outside of a specific school and perhaps an organization?  The measuring stick is made of rubber.  How can you compare someone that makes 1st Dan in TKD in a year or two against someone in a different art that takes five years?  Both may have given 100% effort, know the material but the ranking philosophy differs.  How can you compare a 5th Dan in a SD art that has survived the street but really wouldn't make it far in competiton?  Or on the flip side, someone that is a 5th Dan in a sport art that is very athletic and prosperous on the tourny circuit but may have his butt handed to him by a mugger?  The 9th Dan in the video, how does he stack up against a 9th Dan in your art?  What is the criteria for judging him good or bad?
> 
> Rank will never have a universal standard.  First you'd have to break it down by the focus of the art i.e. SD or sport.  Then you'd have to break it down further by associations.  Can anyone ever see GM's and masters taking a rank cut to have a universal standard in their art?  For example, let's just say TKD merged into one big happy family.  We'll even put aside the SD/sport aspect.  Now let's say the TKD is going to have just one...and only one GM and he's a 9th Dan.  Heck, let's ake him a 10th just to be even about it.  Now perhaps, since we're talking about TKD which is worldwide we alot a specific, set amount of 9th Dan's.  Perhaps we base it on the population of the country, but we make it a rather small, manageable number.  And so forth down the line with the number of Dans per grade increasing as we get lower on the scale and below the 'master level it is unlimited.  To enforce some sort of standard such as total TIG and TIA there will be folks that have to take a rank cut.  Anybody see this happening?  Nope.  Even if it were for the 'good of the art' and a 'healing and unifying action to bring TKD all together' yada yada.  Do you see anyone cutting rank and placing the art above their Dan number?  Perhaps a few.  But I'd say a very few.  And for that matter...who's the GM going to be?
> 
> ...



what makes you think standards in this one big org would be more enforced than Kukkiwon standards? It isn't physically possible, there will always be crappy teachers with low standards.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 25, 2013)

ETinCYQX said:


> what makes you think standards in this one big org would be more enforced than Kukkiwon standards? It isn't physically possible, there will always be crappy teachers with low standards.


Good question. I would imagine it would start with having some sort of "regional directors". For example, a country like Australia with 20-25 million people,  this org would have three regional directors permanantly based there, partly funded by membership fees. These directors would be employed, and would answer directly to,the international governing body. One of these directors would have to be present at all black belt gradings which would be held quarterly in capital cities (over a week if necessary). These directors would be required to attend seminars in korea (or wherever the international headquarters is located), and also conduct seminars in the country they work to ensure standards are being taught to instructors accross the country. Obviously countries with larger populations would have more directors etc. This is just quickly penned off the top of my head, obviously there are other considerations, but its a blue print of how things could be done.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 25, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Good question. I would imagine it would start with having some sort of "regional directors". For example, a country like Australia with 20-25 million people,  this org would have three regional directors permanantly based there, partly funded by membership fees. These directors would be employed, and would answer directly to,the international governing body. One of these directors would have to be present at all black belt gradings which would be held quarterly in capital cities (over a week if necessary). These directors would be required to attend seminars in korea (or wherever the international headquarters is located), and also conduct seminars in the country they work to ensure standards are being taught to instructors accross the country. Obviously countries with larger populations would have more directors etc. This is just quickly penned off the top of my head, obviously there are other considerations, but its a blue print of how things could be done.



Wow. A 1st Dan test would sure be expensive...
I think I prefer just not getting all that wrapped up in what belt someone is wearing.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Wow. A 1st Dan test would sure be expensive...
> I think I prefer just not getting all that wrapped up in what belt someone is wearing.[/QUOT
> The biggest cost I could see would be travel costs for directors but with say, 10 000 members in australia (for instance) all paying a $50 a year membership fee to the org and a black belt grading fees going to the org (no different from how the kkw currently do it),thats  a lot of money. What does a kkw black belt grading currently cost and where does the money go? This is the way our club does it with 4000 members and we pay far less to test than a kkw black belt, and we have area managers who oversee everything.  Im just throwing the idea out there, I havent done the sums  Bjj and other arts like zendokai seem to able to maintain a high standard despite having huge numbers of practitioners so it is possible. Ego would be the biggest obstacle .


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Wow. A 1st Dan test would sure be expensive...
> I think I prefer just not getting all that wrapped up in what belt someone is wearing.





ralphmcpherson said:


> The biggest cost I could see would be travel costs for directors but with say, 10 000 members in australia (for instance) all paying a $50 a year membership fee to the org and a black belt grading fees going to the org (no different from how the kkw currently do it),thats  a lot of money. What does a kkw black belt grading currently cost and where does the money go? This is the way our club does it with 4000 members and we pay far less to test than a kkw black belt, and we have area managers who oversee everything.



I don't pay any membership fee to the KKW or any other org. The KKW charges less than $100 to register a 1st Dan, any other fees are up to the person performing the grading. So, yes, it certainly would be different. 
How much do you charge for a 1st Dan test in your club?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 25, 2013)

Hmmm, grading fees.  Used to be a tenner, if my memory serves.  Now it is something astronomical like £13 {plus a fiver for the days training that goes along with the testing} :lol:.

Of course that is because my sensei teaches through love of the art rather than trying to make a living at it.

I mean no malice when I say that one day the TKD bubble will burst, just like all artificial inflations do {Olympic sport or not, people will get wise, in the end, to the fact that they are getting royally ripped off}.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 25, 2013)

ETinCYQX said:


> what makes you think standards in this one big org would be more enforced than Kukkiwon standards? It isn't physically possible, there will always be crappy teachers with low standards.



That is one of my points.  We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics.  We will have people that cut standards.  We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art.  Universal standards aren't possible.  The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example.  Therefore belts aren't universal either.  If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture.  That's just my humble opinion.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't pay any membership fee to the KKW or any other org. The KKW charges less than $100 to register a 1st Dan, any other fees are up to the person performing the grading. So, yes, it certainly would be different.
> How much do you charge for a 1st Dan test in your club?



Your question wasn't directed at me, but I'd like to toss in my response if I may.  I don't charge testing fees at any level, including Dan testing.  The IKSDA doesn't charge anything either except the actual cost of the cert and S&H...about $5 if I remember correctly.  At least that is what is listed on the website.  In all honesty, I don't think that has even been charged yet.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 25, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is one of my points.  We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics.  We will have people that cut standards.  We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art.  Universal standards aren't possible.  The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example.  Therefore belts aren't universal either.  If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture.  That's just my humble opinion.



I really only find belt ranks to be a good indicator in my own school, with guys my own age group. Other than that, not really.


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## WaterGal (Jan 28, 2013)

Sukerkin said:


> Hmmm, grading fees.  Used to be a tenner, if my memory serves.  Now it is something astronomical like £13 {plus a fiver for the days training that goes along with the testing} :lol:.
> 
> Of course that is because my sensei teaches through love of the art rather than trying to make a living at it.
> 
> I mean no malice when I say that one day the TKD bubble will burst, just like all artificial inflations do {Olympic sport or not, people will get wise, in the end, to the fact that they are getting royally ripped off}.



FWIW, around here the schools that are full-time schools, not a guy teaching 2 nights a week in the community center, all charge about the same regardless of style.  It's not really a rip-off, it's just that it's an expensive business.  I'd love it if we could charge everybody $30/month with no testing fees, but it costs us (or will, when our full rent kicks in in April) over $5,000/month just to keep the school open.  Hopefully we'll be able to make a living on it at some point, but right now we're doing it for free - the Mr and I's entire income is from part-time work we do elsewhere.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jan 28, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> FWIW, around here the schools that are full-time schools, not a guy teaching 2 nights a week in the community center, all charge about the same regardless of style.  It's not really a rip-off, it's just that it's an expensive business.  I'd love it if we could charge everybody $30/month with no testing fees, but it costs us (or will, when our full rent kicks in in April) over $5,000/month just to keep the school open.  Hopefully we'll be able to make a living on it at some point, but right now we're doing it for free - the Mr and I's entire income is from part-time work we do elsewhere.


I find most schools in my area charge about the same, wheather it be olympic tkd, old school tkd, karate, wing chun etc etc. The real rip off in my area are boxing and muay thai. A tkd guy I train with just did some boxing over the holidays and joked you just about have to mortgage your house to pay the fees. It was about three times the cost of tkd, and they hit you $180 for a pair of "basic" gloves you must purchase before you start. In the grand scheme of things I certainly wouldnt say tkd over charge, not in my area anyway.


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## WaterGal (Jan 28, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That is one of my points.  We unfortunately will have people that put $ before ethics.  We will have people that cut standards.  We will have people with egos that prevent them from doing what is best for the art.  Universal standards aren't possible.  The KKW is a good example of this, though they are by no means the only example.  Therefore belts aren't universal either.  If we're all totally honest, belts can have meaning in a school but are really pretty useless in the big picture.  That's just my humble opinion.



That's true.  I've definitely seen all sorts of skill levels from people at different schools, KKW and otherwise.  

I worked with a pair of kids at GM's school for a bit who were KKW 2nd Dans fresh from Korea, and they didn't know how to do a jump spinning heel kick - like literally had no idea how to even approach it.  That's something I was expected to at least have the basics of at, IIRC, red belt.  And they were pretty iffy with the Taegeuk forms.  Somehow I'd imagined Korean schools were all strict and authentic because KKW is right there, but I guess there are some schools with low standards everywhere.  And I won't even talk about standards of the chain TSD school in the next town, yikes.


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## WaterGal (Jan 28, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I find most schools in my area charge about the same, wheather it be olympic tkd, old school tkd, karate, wing chun etc etc. The real rip off in my area are boxing and muay thai. A tkd guy I train with just did some boxing over the holidays and joked you just about have to mortgage your house to pay the fees. It was about three times the cost of tkd, and they hit you $180 for a pair of "basic" gloves you must purchase before you start. In the grand scheme of things I certainly wouldnt say tkd over charge, not in my area anyway.



$180 for a pair of gloves?!  That's significantly more than what we charge for a full set of WTF sparring gear and a gym bag to put it in.  Which you don't have to buy upfront.  We do mark it up, but not a lot.  I'd feel like a jerk charging that much.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> That's true.  I've definitely seen all sorts of skill levels from people at different schools, KKW and otherwise.
> 
> I worked with a pair of kids at GM's school for a bit who were KKW 2nd Dans fresh from Korea, and they didn't know how to do a jump spinning heel kick - like literally had no idea how to even approach it.  That's something I was expected to at least have the basics of at, IIRC, red belt.  And they were pretty iffy with the Taegeuk forms.  Somehow I'd imagined Korean schools were all strict and authentic because KKW is right there, but I guess there are some schools with low standards everywhere.  And I won't even talk about standards of the chain TSD school in the next town, yikes.



Unfortunately this is a stereotype some in TKD try to insist is true.  Like all Chinese people are Kung Fu experts etc.  It simply isn't true.  This is why I have been vocal in my opinion that the KKW's numbers are highly inflated and virtually meaningless.  First, you have Korean kids get a Dan in a year but the quality isn't always there as you've mentioned.  And you aren't the only one to comment on it, my instructor had to teach a Korean that didn't know jack.  Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master.  It was a backroom promotion so the guy could open his own school and pay revenue to the home school.  The guy was maybe a blue belt in time, experience and knowledge.  Not to poo-poo the KKW, and I know I'm not shy about pointing their deficencies out, but I've had KKW black belts come to me for training that quite frankly would not have passed my yellow belt test.  Secondly are the instructors that pass out KKW Dan certs to those unqualified just to get the numbers up.  As I've said before, quantity over quality.  So when someone tosses out the millions of Dan holders in Korea (the vast bulk of which is inside Korea) I shake my head.  It is a paper tiger and nothing more.  Now, that isn't to slam every KKW Dan holder nor am I trying to flame anyone.  A KKW Dan is like any other Dan in that if they've worked really hard, have the experience, can walk the walk then wonderful.  But the organization itself could fall off the planet and I think TKD would take a huge leap forward in credibility.  Just my opinion and again, no offense to the hard working KKW members that have put sweat equity into their training.


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## Markku P (Jan 29, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master.



Well..My first teacher brought his brother from Korea ( 1987 ) and he told he is 5th dan black belt. The problem was I met him in Korea two year earlier and he told me that he haven't train Taekwondo since his military service where he got his first dan. 3 years later (1990) He has "grandmaster" and founder of his new korean Martial arts.


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## WaterGal (Jan 31, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately this is a stereotype some in TKD try to insist is true.  Like all Chinese people are Kung Fu experts etc.  It simply isn't true.  This is why I have been vocal in my opinion that the KKW's numbers are highly inflated and virtually meaningless.  First, you have Korean kids get a Dan in a year but the quality isn't always there as you've mentioned.  And you aren't the only one to comment on it, my instructor had to teach a Korean that didn't know jack.  Personal instructor for six months and then the guy disappears and shows up later as a 4th Dan Master.  It was a backroom promotion so the guy could open his own school and pay revenue to the home school.  The guy was maybe a blue belt in time, experience and knowledge.  Not to poo-poo the KKW, and I know I'm not shy about pointing their deficencies out, but I've had KKW black belts come to me for training that quite frankly would not have passed my yellow belt test.  Secondly are the instructors that pass out KKW Dan certs to those unqualified just to get the numbers up.  As I've said before, quantity over quality.  So when someone tosses out the millions of Dan holders in Korea (the vast bulk of which is inside Korea) I shake my head.  It is a paper tiger and nothing more.  Now, that isn't to slam every KKW Dan holder nor am I trying to flame anyone.  A KKW Dan is like any other Dan in that if they've worked really hard, have the experience, can walk the walk then wonderful.  But the organization itself could fall off the planet and I think TKD would take a huge leap forward in credibility.  Just my opinion and again, no offense to the hard working KKW members that have put sweat equity into their training.



Eh, I don't know.  I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good.  I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page.  Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student.  Which would still be the case if a school was independent.

I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves.  But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community".  People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 1, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Eh, I don't know.  I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good.  I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page.  Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student.  Which would still be the case if a school was independent.
> 
> I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves.  But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community".  People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.


This has been said many times over the years.  I happen to agree.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Eh, I don't know.  I don't think any huge international organization like that would be able to make sure every member is good.  I think KKW's value is in providing a standard baseline curriculum, and the WTF's in providing a standard sparring rule set, so that we're all at least generally on the same page.  Beyond that, it's up to the school, the teacher and the student.  Which would still be the case if a school was independent.
> 
> I also feel like if another school has low standards and gives out belts to people who aren't any good, they're doing a disservice to their students and themselves.  But it doesn't have anything to do with me, or my school, or "the martial arts community".  People can come to our school and see 8-year old yellow belts doing jump kicks and breaking 1" boards with an elbow strike, and go to their school and see red belts kicking a plastic sheet with a hook kick (I saw a demo that TSD school did... yeah), and make their own judgement.



If the Kkw are happy to let below par clubs use the Kkw branding, potentially damaging their reputation,  then that's their choice and I'm cool with that. It's certainly not how I'd run an organisation though.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> If the Kkw are happy to let below par clubs use the Kkw branding, potentially damaging their reputation,  then that's their choice and I'm cool with that. It's certainly not how I'd run an organisation though.



I think we're all interested in hearing a better, practical plan. Do you know of one?


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 1, 2013)

Self-policing would be a good start.  If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported.  Shady dealings should be investigated.  Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears?  Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Self-policing would be a good start.  If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported.  Shady dealings should be investigated.  Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears?  Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.



Except that it is accepted KKW policy, as part of the Borg...errr...assimilation program, to give rank to practitioners of other styles. 

There's only three practical options.

The KKW can charge high fees and start going around to schools and taking belts off people.
or
The KKW can offer guidelines (more accurate than pretending that their curriculum is mandatory) and be a resource and maintain a database of dan ranks from practitioners from any style that want to register.
or
The KKW can continue as is, which is really very close to the above, while paying lip service to standards that really are no such thing.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2013)

the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc.  You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?".   It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand"  of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd".  As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Self-policing would be a good start.  If an instructor is known to be passing out KKW rank like candy to unqualified people then it should be reported.  Shady dealings should be investigated.  Providing it isn't falling on deaf ears?  Otherwise it gives the perception that its all about the greenbacks.


thats the problem. The kkw are much more concerned with having huge membership than anything else. If my GM contacted the kkw and said he has four thousand students who dont know any kkw curriculum but he wants us all to join the kkw,  I reckon they'd be emailing the application forms to him before he even had a chance to hang up the phone. Their number one objective is assimilation. You cant help but think "tkd"  is a distant second in their list of priorites.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 1, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Except that it is accepted KKW policy, as part of the Borg...errr...assimilation program, to give rank to practitioners of other styles.



 :lol: "You will be assimilated!"



> There's only three practical options.
> 
> The KKW can charge high fees and start going around to schools and taking belts off people.
> or
> The KKW can offer guidelines (more accurate than pretending that their curriculum is mandatory) and be a resource and maintain a database of dan ranks from practitioners from any style that want to register.



Honestly, the KKW wouldn't have to charge fees that are higher than they are now, I don't think, unless you're saying that the higher fees would kind of naturally weed out people who are unqualified since it would be a higher investment than they would want to pay to get rank. This, I think, wouldn't be much of a deterent since I know some people who have paid some pretty high prices to get the rank they "deserved," even if they didn't know the system in which they were being ranked. 

As for demoting people, that's problematic. I don't know if the KKW as any sort of guidelines about that (I know the ITF does in theory, though I only know of one person who has been demoted and that was some time ago). Even if they did the prevaling attitude in the west, at least in the U.S., is "who are [fill inthe blank] to tell me I'm not qualified to teach/be a 5th dan/whatever." In the ITF you cannot promote black belts unless you're a certified International Instructor. That is at least a medium level of quality control. It's my understanding that the KKW doesn't require any sort of credentialing apart from being a 4th dan for people to promote students (outside of Korea). There's no requirement to standardize your techniques with those of the organization so when you're promoting your students there's no motivation to have them conform to technical standards. 



> or
> The KKW can continue as is, which is really very close to the above, while paying lip service to standards that really are no such thing.



This seems most likely since, as an outsider, I see very little indication that the KKW is interested in shoring up standards. Not none, just very little. They could well be working on upping standards but just don't publisize that fact to the wider martial arts commuity. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 1, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> :lol: "You will be assimilated!"



I have KKW Dan rank, so I guess I have... sort of... 
I actually do know the KKW curriculum, though my personal preference remains training with the Chang Hon Tul. That may well be simply because that was my earliest training, but nonetheless I prefer them.



chrispillertkd said:


> Honestly, the KKW wouldn't have to charge fees that are higher than they are now, I don't think, unless you're saying that the higher fees would kind of naturally weed out people who are unqualified since it would be a higher investment than they would want to pay to get rank. This, I think, wouldn't be much of a deterent since I know some people who have paid some pretty high prices to get the rank they "deserved," even if they didn't know the system in which they were being ranked.



In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.



chrispillertkd said:


> As for demoting people, that's problematic. I don't know if the KKW as any sort of guidelines about that (I know the ITF does in theory, though I only know of one person who has been demoted and that was some time ago). Even if they did the prevaling attitude in the west, at least in the U.S., is "who are [fill inthe blank] to tell me I'm not qualified to teach/be a 5th dan/whatever."



And therein lies the problem. Any attempt at enforcing standards from on high would result in schools telling the KKW to go stuff themselves and either joining another org or forming their own. Look at all the schools now that, despite their KKW affiliation, issue in-house Dan ranks to their baby black belts so they can wear a real BB instead of a poom belt.



chrispillertkd said:


> In the ITF you cannot promote black belts unless you're a certified International Instructor. That is at least a medium level of quality control. It's my understanding that the KKW doesn't require any sort of credentialing apart from being a 4th dan for people to promote students (outside of Korea). There's no requirement to standardize your techniques with those of the organization so when you're promoting your students there's no motivation to have them conform to technical standards.



What is required to obtain and retain that certification?


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 1, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> :lol: "You will be assimilated!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't aware the ITF did it that way. That makes a lot more sense. I really can't see how it would be costly to put something like that in place and it ads a lot more credibility.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 1, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I have KKW Dan rank, so I guess I have... sort of...
> I actually do know the KKW curriculum, though my personal preference remains training with the Chang Hon Tul. That may well be simply because that was my earliest training, but nonetheless I prefer them.



Could be. I learned a few of the KKW poomse in college and found that I really prefered the ITF tul, which I had already known. I was training at a KKW/WTF club at the time and they were fairly in line with KKW standards so I actually was doig the Taeguks and Koryo with the correct stances, blocking preparations, etc. I just prefered the ITF method of executing techniques. 



> In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.



Is the KKW funded by the ROK government at all? If so it's conceivable that prices could be kept low. If not then yes they'd have to raise prices, at least somewhat.



> And therein lies the problem. Any attempt at enforcing standards from on high would result in schools telling the KKW to go stuff themselves and either joining another org or forming their own. Look at all the schools now that, despite their KKW affiliation, issue in-house Dan ranks to their baby black belts so they can wear a real BB instead of a poom belt.



But, ultimately, that might not be a bad thing. If the goal is to get and maintain high standards then having people who don't meet those standards leave isn't _necessarily_ bad. If the goal is simply high membership then yes, it must be avoided. I think the KKW attitude lies somewhere in between. They want people to adhere to their standards but they also want as many people as they can get to be certified by them. Whether they have chosen a good way to meet these goals is a matter of debate and each person's opinion on the matter. 

Edit: If the KKW is interested in technical standardization then they would do well, IMHO, to set the bar if not high at least at a medium level and expect people to meet it. If the KKW is more interested on unity amongst Taekwondoin then they should at least explain why unity is itself desireable and, more to the point, what they mean by unity in the first place. Can a martial art have any sort of meaningful unity without a technical standard that the majority of its members meet? If it's just a matter of being united to be united it then becomes a matter of what people are going to get out of that. Personally, I'd feel much stronger ties to a certain Kwan than to a huge organiztion, but that's just me.



> What is required to obtain and retain that certification?



Actually, not too much. You have to attend an International Instructors Course and pay the fee to be certified. And be a IV dan. 

Back in the day IIC's were longer and I personally wish they would go back to being a week in length. But the fact is the IIC's were longer when less people were familiar with the ITF's technical standards. You were having people who had never trained with Gen. Choi or any of his instructors attending and the IIC's were used to get them on the same page for techniques, learn to perform the tul correctly, etc. Now it is acceptable to have students as low as 2nd gup attend what is, really, a course for instructors. And these are often students that train regularly uder instructors or Masters (in the ITF that means you're a minimum of VII dan) who themselves have attended many IIC's. In other words, the technical standard now is much higher than it was in the early 70's. My own instructor, for example, has attended IIC's under Gen. Choi as well as with his son GM Choi, Jung Hwa and is _very_ clear about what he wants and doesn't want as far as techniques go. Speaking as a non-member, it seems _to me_ like the KKW is trying to do now what the ITF was trying to do in the early 70's. They're just on a slower time table.

Pax,

Chris


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 2, 2013)

So looking at this thread as well as others where both KKW and non-KKW members have commented, I see the following;


An organization that has stated guidelines, but the guidelines aren't necessarily followed either on an organizational level or individual school level.
Quality of practitioners varies considerably.
Time to achieve a Dan varies considerably
The organization allows non-KKW practitioners to join regardless of whether they know the curriculum.
The organization allows skips in Dan rank, up to six as long as the highest three are paid for.

My question is what prompts someone to be a member of such organization?  This isn't a slam, it is a legitmate question.  Why would you wish to be associated with an organization that has mostly children in Korea as members?  As noted, some of questionable quality.  Why would you wish to be in an organization that allows those that haven't trained as you to join?  Using the guise of 'unity' is a red flag.  Unity for what?  If they're no standards that are enforced...if quality is like a roller coaster, if TIG is subjective at best then what 'unity' are you trying to achieve?  I'm sorry, but 'unity' sounds an lot like a money grab.  Would that be an out-of-bounds consideration?  I suppose if you want to compete at a certain level it is necessary?  If so, how many of the KKW members here on the board compete at that level?  

I dunno.  I just don't see the attraction.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> So looking at this thread as well as others where both KKW and non-KKW members have commented, I see the following;
> 
> 
> An organization that has stated guidelines, but the guidelines aren't necessarily followed either on an organizational level or individual school level.
> ...



I suspect that for most people, the answer is simple:
That's the rank the school they joined gives out. I really doubt that many people pick their school based on which org issues the certificates.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 2, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I suspect that for most people, the answer is simple:
> That's the rank the school they joined gives out. I really doubt that many people pick their school based on which org issues the certificates.



Yes, you may very well be right.


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## WaterGal (Feb 2, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc.  You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?".   It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand"  of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd".  As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.



I'll be honest, I've never heard anyone who's not already a martial artist say something like that.  Usually people come in and go "so you guys do karate, right?".  It doesn't help that the TSD school here in town claims to do TKD, and the other TSD school in the other town says they do karate. And we've had a few unhappy students/parents from those schools come in, and are confused about why we don't teach the same things and won't honor their rank.


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## WaterGal (Feb 2, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> In order to enforce standards, the KKW would need a staff of people who regularly travel between the KKW and the various schools issuing KKW rank. They would need to supervise Dan gradings. You'd get a lot of frequent flyer miles, but it would still be costly.



Yeah, that's the problem as I see it.  I mean, maybe they could just supervise the first one, or one every X years, but it'd still be very expensive for schools, who I'm sure would be expected to pay for it.  Another option would where you could report schools that are "black belt mills", and KKW sent someone out to investigate if they have a few complaints, but then you'd have some schools reporting their competitors just to cause them problems, and it'd still be expensive.  I'm just not sure what could be done about it.

One idea, though, since I've seen some complaints about giving out rank too quickly, would be for KKW to have some kind of online database where you register all your students at white belt, and then when you send in the dan application, they can check the database to see if it's been a reasonably long time since they started.  That wouldn't do anything about low standards, but it would at least keep people from giving someone a black belt after 6 months, and wouldn't be too expensive or difficult for schools.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 2, 2013)

I don't know that "member" is the right word to use in regard to Kukkiwon. A student is a member of his/her school. You don't really join the Kukkiwon. There are no membership fees collected. You pay for rank/instructor certification and take a test at your school or in Korea. 

Kukkiwon's objective is to spread Taekwondo and increase the national prestige through the spread of one of its most popular cultural products. It's not an exclusive organization by any means. They promote taekwondo as an activity for anyone to enjoy. I guess it's a bit like baseball, in that anyone can participate at the lowest level, but the number of people participating at the very highest level is quite small. There is no real need (or possibility) to hold everyone to the same standard in this regard. 

As far as being a "money grab," I'm betting there are far worse offenders than Kukkiwon when it comes to certifications. Kukkiwon's fees are fairly reasonable, in my opinion. I would worry more about a money grab from an organization headed/owned by one man or a small group of men. 

Anyway, as I think Dirty Dog said, I'm fairly sure that the majority of new students aren't joining a school because of the org the school belongs to.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 2, 2013)

I see that you're in Korea.  I have a question in regards to KKW certification fees.  In the U.S. a first Dan is $85 USD IIRC.  Keeping in mind the difference in currency, is it equivelent for a child/adult in Korea?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 4, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> the problem is that kkw td is now a brand to most people, like apple, or mcdonalds etc.  You constantly hear people ask the question - "im thinking of doing kkw tkd, is it any good?" or "how does kkw tkd go in a real fight etc?".   It is unfair to the guys running good reputable schools to have their "brand"  of tkd dragged through the mud because of the dodgy guy up the road who also teaches "kkw tkd".  As kong soo do said, maybe reporting the guys handing out rank like candy would be a good start.


I don't know if that is a regional phenomenon or no.  

I have never heard anyone outside of the art say that they were thinking of doing a particular type of taekwondo in this area.  On the occasions that I have been asked about the art in general or about a specific school, when I mention that there are different organizations, I ususally get a response of, "Really?"  

It is only within the past decade or so that I have heard non-practitioners specifically calling it taekwondo instead of karate.  From what I can tell, this pretty much the case in other parts of the US (I'll leave it to others in other parts of the US to comment there), so at least here, I wouldn't call KKW a brand at all.


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