# Taijiquan Training Question



## Xue Sheng

I was looking through a book I recently purchased Chen Taijiquan it is out of print so it was a little hard to find at a reasonable price thank you Amazon.com.

I have not yet really got into reading it much, it is fairly advanced and deals with a lot of Chen martial applications, but I was reading the histories of Chen Fake, Chen Xiaowang and Feng Zhuqiang (student of Chen Fake) and they all had something in common that I am sure all Tai Chi masters share form all families. They all trained the family form 10 to 20 times (or more) a day. Also Feng Zhuqiang did stance training for 2 hours a day. 

Believe me there is a question here for the tai chi folks.

How many times a day do you practice your form?

Do you do any stance training?

If you do stance training, how long do you stand and how do you go about it?

Now what do I do, what did I do and what will I do

Now I know stance training is considered a bad thing or old and antiquated by many, but I am a bit of a traditionalist (I know that comes as a surprise to many) when it comes to training internal styles and I have been referred to as old and antiquated so it works for me. I am currently only up to 12 to 20 minutes a day in Chen style stance training and I am still switching legs after 5 minutes, so 5 minutes on the right leg, 5 minutes on the left leg, repeat. And when I last trained Xingyi I got to 30 minutes a day

But this doing the form 10 or more times a day made me think of my training and something my Yang Sifu said several years ago. He said You need to train the long form at least 2 or 3 times a day if you want to understand Taiji. Now I use to train it 2 or 3 times a day and at one point when I use to teach I was training it 5 times a day. But the last 3 years it was long form once, fast form once and 2 da dow forms once and it is really not the same to be honest.

Currently I am only doing my Yang form now once every other day so I do not forget it. I will be starting official Chen training with a teacher next week and I am fairly certain I will train that 2 or 3 times a day plus continue stance training.

Now with all that being said I will add it is very likely I will be posting less starting late next week, with starting Chen again, training Sanda, and trying not to forget Yang plus all the other responsibilities we all have my time will be at a premium. But I will still be around to rant occasionally. 

I am really interested in hearing about your Taiji training so I look forward to your  responses.

Xue Sheng :asian:


----------



## charyuop

I go to class 3 times a week where we practice for 1 hour. Then since I work overnight I use the parking lot of where I work (wal-mart) to practice during my lunch time (more or less 1 hour). But all day long I revise the movement in my mind and if I am not doing anything I throw in a movement here and there. While at work or at home doing something I try to move my legs according to forms and when what I am doing allows it I accompany legs with arms.

As per practicing stance I don't undertand what you mean exactly. If you mean keeping a stance for long time, no I don't. My teacher suggested me not to and I agree. Tai Chi Chuan is a whole thing thus makes no sense standing still in one position. It's in doing a whole movement that you find your errors and can fix them. The master of my teachers the other day told me that even tho so many years doing Tai Chi when she sees a film of her doing Tai Chi she still sometimes finds something that doesn't satisfy her and with a still stence she wouldn't see it. She said she trains everyday (don't know how many times tho) with a warm up, 8-24-48 and long form. She didn't mention about Chen style, but since she knows it I assume she trains that too everyday.


----------



## East Winds

Xue Sheng,

I practise SOME taiji every day. I also teach about 7 classes a week at varying levels. These regular classes do not include demo's, seminars and class practise sessions. And I can say in all honesty, that is not enough!!!!

My practise will be doing a long form (105) and then spending some time on a particular aspect of the form. i.e. moving from the centre, being upright in every transition, posture timing, stopping without stopping etc. etc. etc.

I practise and teach Zhan Zhuang in all my classes. I think it is an absolute essential part of training, not only as a simple leg strengthening exercise, but as a wonderful practise for generating and developing stillness and internal strength and energy. I have studied Yi Chuan (Da Cheng Chuan) and absolutely love it. Again it is a very demanding discipline and my original teacher (Lam Kam Chuen) would have us standing for up to an hour.  

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

charyuop said:


> As per practicing stance I don't undertand what you mean exactly. If you mean keeping a stance for long time, no I don't. My teacher suggested me not to and I agree. Tai Chi Chuan is a whole thing thus makes no sense standing still in one position. It's in doing a whole movement that you find your errors and can fix them. The master of my teachers the other day told me that even tho so many years doing Tai Chi when she sees a film of her doing Tai Chi she still sometimes finds something that doesn't satisfy her and with a still stence she wouldn't see it. She said she trains everyday (don't know how many times tho) with a warm up, 8-24-48 and long form. She didn't mention about Chen style, but since she knows it I assume she trains that too everyday.


 
Glad to hear youre training the form

But I must admit the part about stance training is a bit of a concern to me, stance training is very important for developing the root and the root is very important to Tai Chi. My Yang Sifu was a Student of Tung Ying Cheih and Tung was big on Stance training, as was and is the Chen family. You hold a position from a posture for a long period of time. It is all part of internal training, but like I said it is not trained much these days and it tends to be us older Dinosaurs with a lot of traditional training that do still train it. 

You young guys tend to think it is a boring waste of time 

See Pete Stars post on Stance training and you will get a better idea 
Seven Years for Foundation 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37918

Also see East Winds response to the thread above.

I am not saying anything against your teacher but I doubt she knows Chen, She may know some Chen forms but doubtful Chen style. Chen Style consists of old form 1, old form 2, new form 1, new form 2, cannon fist, a single da dow form and double da dow form, at least one possibly 2 straight sword forms, staff form, spear form and Guan Dao form as well as Chen Silk reeling and Chen stance training.


----------



## charyuop

Well, maybe the Ma standing it can really be usefull (and I think I am going to introdue it in my daily routines...I tried now and I can barely reach a couple of minutes bleah). But I don't see the same purpose in holdin still other stances.


----------



## East Winds

Charyuop,

There are several (5) classic stances in Zhan Zhuang (pronounced Jam Jong and meaning Standing Pole or Stance Training) which are beginning level stances to develop stillness, internal strength, internal energy and as Xue Sheng correctly stated, rooting. Once you are able to hold these stances for a reasonable time (and it is important that the body structure is correct and relaxed!!!!! i.e. you really need a competent teacher), you can move on to the Yi Chuan or martial stances. In actual fact you can use any ending posture from Taijiquan as a Zhan Zhuang stance. There are two methods of training Zhan Zhuang, the "Water" method and the "Fire" method. The "Water" method says you adopt a posture, relax the mind and body and stand only for as long as you can maintain concentration on what you are doing. As soon as you find your mind has wandered, STOP. There is no point in carrying on as the stillness has been disturbed. You may only be able to last a few seconds initially, but then you try again, later. Gradually you will be able to extend the time you stand. You will actually start to enjoy standing!!!! The "Fire" method on the other hand means that you decide to stand for a set period (say, 5 minutes initially) and despite what happens during that time to your mind or body, you maintain the stance!!!!

Both methods have their supporters and both methods are equally valid. Pick the one that suits you best. It really is a wonderful discipline and done first thing in the morning for 2 minutes, will set you up for the rest of the day. However I cannot stress too much the need for a competent teacher who understands Zhan Zhuang. 

Hope this clears up some points for you.

Very best wishes


----------



## East Winds

Charyuop,

Two good introductory books to Zhan Zhuang are :

The Way of Healing by Lam Kam Chuen

and

Warriors of Stillness (Vol.1) by Jan Diepersloot

Vey best wishes


----------



## charyuop

Hee hee, the problem is that...teachers. It took me 3 years to find the one I have, so I am in the cathegory "take it or leave it".
I am sure the real Master knows about those things, but the teachers by her certified might not. This is a class made for aged people who want to keep their joints moving, so they pay more attention to the correct position of feet and movement of the hands. They look at the movement more according to how good it is for their hips/knees than how much Chi they might feel or if they are not rooted 100%.
There inside I guess they haven't had anyone asking so many question like I did in the first 2 weeks LOL, but still I have to run along with the rest of the class.
The closest Tai Chi school here is 2 hours away from me and they have classes in the evining (I work overnight) which means even if I could afford gas+monthly fee (above all with the gas price now) I wouldn't have time to come back to go to work. Moreover my wife works morning so I have to take care of my baby and I go to bed when my wife comes home from work (4/5 pm) that would leave me no time to sleep LMAO.
Trust me in my situation I cannot be too much picky...maybe one day I will be able to work days and travel 4 hours a day to go to a decent school and there complete my training (or restart it).
For now I sponge all the suggestions I can from forums hee hee.

EDIT. By the way, that might be why I can keep the Ma stence for so short. Don't know normal stence, but my teacher said that ours is a little modified from the normal Tai Chi (parallel feet shoulder apart). We keep legs wide open with feet slightly angled so to go lower (my butt is about 1 foot from the floor). He said the reason is to move more hips/knees, thing they are interested in. But on the other hand he might be wrong and that is the actual Ma stence hee hee.


----------



## charyuop

East Winds said:


> Charyuop,
> 
> Two good introductory books to Zhan Zhuang are :
> 
> The Way of Healing by Lam Kam Chuen
> 
> and
> 
> Warriors of Stillness (Vol.1) by Jan Diepersloot
> 
> Vey best wishes


 
Thanks...on my way to amazon.com now


----------



## Xue Sheng

charyuop said:


> Hee hee, the problem is that...teachers. It took me 3 years to find the one I have, so I am in the cathegory "take it or leave it".
> I am sure the real Master knows about those things, but the teachers by her certified might not. This is a class made for aged people who want to keep their joints moving, so they pay more attention to the correct position of feet and movement of the hands. They look at the movement more according to how good it is for their hips/knees than how much Chi they might feel or if they are not rooted 100%.
> There inside I guess they haven't had anyone asking so many question like I did in the first 2 weeks LOL, but still I have to run along with the rest of the class.
> The closest Tai Chi school here is 2 hours away from me and they have classes in the evining (I work overnight) which means even if I could afford gas+monthly fee (above all with the gas price now) I wouldn't have time to come back to go to work. Moreover my wife works morning so I have to take care of my baby and I go to bed when my wife comes home from work (4/5 pm) that would leave me no time to sleep LMAO.
> Trust me in my situation I cannot be too much picky...maybe one day I will be able to work days and travel 4 hours a day to go to a decent school and there complete my training (or restart it).
> For now I sponge all the suggestions I can from forums hee hee.


 
No time to give you the response this desereves, but I will say don't leave the class.

More later


----------



## Xue Sheng

The school and the teachers sound fine, you are beginning to train Tai Chi and the form is important. 

I am just an old traditional guy that is sometimes way to picky, I am sorry if I gave you any doubts about your school. 

And different teachers have different approaches to training. My first Tai Chi teacher did no stance training but we did a lot of forms work and I consider myself lucky to have trained with him when I did, and I learned an awful lot there. I still stop by his school from time to time to talk to him.


----------



## charyuop

I have no intention to abandon this school. Good or bad Tai Chi is all this town offers and it is for sure something I am enjoying alot (even if there is no martial art aspect in it). I have planned to stick with it at least 2 or 3 years before seriously considering a 4 hour day trip to go to another school.


----------



## Xue Sheng

enjoy


----------



## Shrewsbury

Standing is very, very important and not just for begginers. Holding stances during form practice? to me no.

The public forms are important for begginers but understanding how to freely move with the principles is far more important in my opinion and more time spent on free form (shadow boxing) will have much better results, again, my opinion


----------



## Xue Sheng

Shrewsbury said:


> Holding stances during form practice?


 
No I do not think yo ushoud do that either but take any posture form the form and stand it at a different time is always a good idea. 

Thanks for all the responses


----------



## East Winds

I agree. I was not suggesting that you stand during form practise. Standing and form practise are two entirely different (although  related) things. You can take any end form posture and USE it as a Zhan Zhuang posture.  Particularly any of the empty stance postures i.e. Stork Spreads Wings, Step Up to Raise Hands, Golden Cock Stands on One Leg, etc. etc.etc.

Very Best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

Old post revisited, or possibly I am beating a dead horse,  not sure. 

I was just re-reading Chen Zhenglei's book "Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword" And I noticed that he too suggests that you practice your form 10 times a day, must be a Chen thing.

As I have said much early in this post, my Yang sifu says at least 3 times a day as did his teacher (TYC). 

Now I do on occasion practice my long form 3 times a day but with everything else it is a bit difficult to fit everything in. Much of why I can see I need to make a decision about training here soon.

I was again wondering what the others here thought of this "at least" 10 to 3 times day stuff.


----------



## hziervogel

In each of our 2 hour classes we will spend the first hour doing Chen foundation work, of which about 30 to 40 minutes worth is done in a Chen stance. During the stance work we do negative and positive circles. I am very new to martial arts and taijiqaun, but I am beginning to see that this type of foundation work is essential for leaning the form and applications.


----------



## Xue Sheng

hziervogel said:


> In each of our 2 hour classes we will spend the first hour doing Chen foundation work, of which about 30 to 40 minutes worth is done in a Chen stance. During the stance work we do negative and positive circles. I am very new to martial arts and taijiqaun, but I am beginning to see that this type of foundation work is essential for leaning the form and applications.


 
Chen Stance training.... That is *GREAT!!!* 

Not to many taiji schools do stance training anymore and it is INCREDIBLY important to get a good foundation to work from. It strengthens your legs, teaches you the correct posture and body alignment and in the process you learn how to relax in the posture. 

How much of this do you train on your own outside of class?


----------



## hziervogel

I try to train at least twice a week on my own and I take, on average, three two hour classes a week.  I was told that I should practice daily, doing at least 200 and up to 800 circles a day, as well as form work, if I want to make progress.


----------



## marlon

is it true that the substantial hand is always the one opposite the substantial leg?  If so, then i do not understand some of the apparent striking off that seems to be with the insubstantial hand in the 108 form

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## bigfootsquatch

Xue Sheng said:


> Old post revisited, or possibly I am beating a dead horse, not sure.
> 
> I was just re-reading Chen Zhenglei's book "Chen Style Taijiquan, Sword and Broadsword" And I noticed that he too suggests that you practice your form 10 times a day, must be a Chen thing.
> 
> As I have said much early in this post, my Yang sifu says at least 3 times a day as did his teacher (TYC).
> 
> Now I do on occasion practice my long form 3 times a day but with everything else it is a bit difficult to fit everything in. Much of why I can see I need to make a decision about training here soon.
> 
> I was again wondering what the others here thought of this "at least" 10 to 3 times day stuff.


 

My belief, on any style, is to practice whole heartedly as many times as you can. If that is 1 hour, and then you start dreading it, or getting distracted, then going you are just going through empty movements, so you may as well stop and figure out what the problem is, whether it be boredom, anxious to "get it over with," or simply distracted by life.


----------



## East Winds

I agree with bigfootsquatch. Training without purpose is a waste of time. You will only be exercising joints and muscles. O.K. not a bad thing, but you could do that walking to the office or jogging round the block. Now if training Taijiquan could be achieved by walking to the office or jogging round the block it would be easy. One of my teachers used to say, "If Taiji was easy, everyone would be a master". I rarely now do complete forms. I take sections of the form, or even just individual moves and spend time every day "REALLY" working on particular aspects. I also train Zhan Zhuang to develop inner strength and energy and learn to drop the Chi to the Dantien. Of course Chen Zhenlei is correct, but I for one find great difficulty in getting time and the appropriate space to do that many repetitions. Could I really find the time and space if i tried? The answer is Yes, without a doubt. That is why I will never become a Chen Zhenlei
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

I don&#8217;t have the time

Yang Long form 10 times 
Yang Fast form 10 times
Yang Dao 10 times
Tung Dao 10 times
Tang Jian 10 times
My Chen I am working on again 10 times
My Xingyi forms 10 times (not even getting into the drills at 100 times a pop)
My Sanda&#8230;. Well that is also much more than 10 times in drills
ETC. 

But I sure wish I did have the time though&#8230;. Silly job keeps getting in the way, but I keep trying to get the training in... oh and I forgot to mention the qigong.... must do related qigong.


----------



## marlon

after the first single whip there is raising the hands then a move that i see as a shoulder strike but the person who taught me the form has it only as a transitionaL move...then i read in cmc 's book that he has it as not only a shoulder strike but also a left palm short force strike? any enlightment welcome

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

when applying a strike with the hand from the substantial leg do you strike short then step through as your weight transits or do you continue your strike through the opponent but then your leg would be becoming insubstantial?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> after the first single whip there is raising the hands then a move that i see as a shoulder strike but the person who taught me the form has it only as a transitionaL move...then i read in cmc 's book that he has it as not only a shoulder strike but also a left palm short force strike? any enlightment welcome
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
It is Cao one of the 13 postures and it is a shoulder strike. There is also a palm strike there as well that is fairly obvious in Traditinal long form but I am not exaclty sure how in looks in CMC.


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> when applying a strike with the hand from the substantial leg do you strike short then step through as your weight transits or do you continue your strike through the opponent but then your leg would be becoming insubstantial?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
What posture/form?



marlon said:


> is it true that the substantial hand is always the one opposite the substantial leg? If so, then i do not understand some of the apparent striking off that seems to be with the insubstantial hand in the 108 form
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I am pressed for time right now and apparently my brain is not working, I will get back to you, unless someone else answers you first.


----------



## Flying Crane

I wish I could do ALL of my forms, both internal and external, ten times a day.  But I am afraid I would need about 8-10 hours a day to do that.  That's just a schedule I cannot keep.  'Tis the curse of the perpetually curious...


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

From Step up to Raise Hands into White Crane is a transition. It is also a Shoulder Stroke. It can be used either to "Body Check" your opponent away or it can be used to step into your opponent using your right arm as a lever under his left armpit and throwing him away as you open out into White Crane. There are several applications for each posture, at least in the Yang Family Form.

When delivering a strike in Traditional Yang Form, the feet must always be firmly planted before delivering the strike. The strike comes from the feet, is transmitted throught the waist and delivered by the hands. 

Very best wishes


----------



## Nebuchadnezzar

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> From Step up to Raise Hands into White Crane is a transition. It is also a Shoulder Stroke. It can be used either to "Body Check" your opponent away or it can be used to step into your opponent using your right arm as a lever under his left armpit and throwing him away as you open out into White Crane. There are several applications for each posture, at least in the Yang Family Form.
> 
> When delivering a strike in Traditional Yang Form, the feet must always be firmly planted before delivering the strike. The strike comes from the feet, is transmitted throught the waist and delivered by the hands.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Thank you for the explanation and example.  This Tai Chi Newbie appreciates it. :wakko:


----------



## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> From Step up to Raise Hands into White Crane is a transition. It is also a Shoulder Stroke. It can be used either to "Body Check" your opponent away or it can be used to step into your opponent using your right arm as a lever under his left armpit and throwing him away as you open out into White Crane. There are several applications for each posture, at least in the Yang Family Form.
> 
> When delivering a strike in Traditional Yang Form, the feet must always be firmly planted before delivering the strike. The strike comes from the feet, is transmitted throught the waist and delivered by the hands.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Which is also where Kao (sorry I noticed I spelled it wrong last night) from the 13 postures appears in the Taiji postures.


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> From Step up to Raise Hands into White Crane is a transition. It is also a Shoulder Stroke. It can be used either to "Body Check" your opponent away or it can be used to step into your opponent using your right arm as a lever under his left armpit and throwing him away as you open out into White Crane. There are several applications for each posture, at least in the Yang Family Form.
> 
> When delivering a strike in Traditional Yang Form, the feet must always be firmly planted before delivering the strike. The strike comes from the feet, is transmitted throught the waist and delivered by the hands.
> 
> Very best wishes


 

thank you, the person teaching me must be mis informed (btw  for the record i am learning the traditional yang 108)  do you step back before the splitting or go directly to it.  I have seen videos of Fu Zohng Wei(sp) who learned from YCF step back before splitting but i did not learn it so

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> Which is also where Kao (sorry I noticed I spelled it wrong last night) from the 13 postures appears in the Taiji postures.


 
yes i remember it from the 13 postures.  thanks
marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

My understanding is that once you have completed Shoulder Stroke, the body then turns to the left and the left foot steps forward into empty stance as you split the arms into White Crane. I'm not sure I have seen Fu Zhong Wen stepping back though.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon

Sorry I took so long to get to this, but to be honest I wanted to talk to my sifu about it before I answered this.



marlon said:


> is it true that the substantial hand is always the one opposite the substantial leg?



Yes



marlon said:


> If so, then i do not understand some of the apparent striking off that seems to be with the insubstantial hand in the 108 form



Which strikes don&#8217;t make sense?

Also you do not always strike with the insubstantial hand. For example in &#8220;Fan through the arms (Shan tung pi) the substantial leg and the substantial hand are forward and that is the hand that is actually attacking. And the power is still coming from the insubstantial leg

But in something like Brush Knee Twist Step (lo xi yao pu) your substantial leg is the front leg and your insubstantial hand is forward, but the power for the strike is coming from the insubstantial leg. 



marlon said:


> when applying a strike with the hand from the substantial leg do you strike short then step through as your weight transits or do you continue your strike through the opponent but then your leg would be becoming insubstantial?



Not sure what you are saying here, is there a specific posture you are referring to?

However it does sounds like the conundrum I was having with CMC in application. Most of the strikes I was shown came from the substantial leg, much like western boxing and this made no sense to me coming from Traditional Yang and Chen. However the Sifu teaching it and his sifu (William CC Chen) were very good at making it work. But then Sifu Chen&#8217;s whole idea of rooting is very different from that of traditional Yang style Taiji. He talks about the 3 nails where Yang Taiji is rooting though the yongquan cavity (or point) in the bottom of the foot in roughly the middle.


----------



## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> marlon
> 
> Sorry I took so long to get to this, but to be honest I wanted to talk to my sifu about it before I answered this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However it does sounds like the conundrum I was having with CMC in application. Most of the strikes I was shown came from the substantial leg, much like western boxing and this made no sense to me coming from Traditional Yang and Chen. However the Sifu teaching it and his sifu (William CC Chen) were very good at making it work. But then Sifu Chens whole idea of rooting is very different from that of traditional Yang style Taiji. He talks about the 3 nails where Yang Taiji is rooting though the yongquan cavity (or point) in the bottom of the foot in roughly the middle.


 


thank you very much for a well thought out answer.  The rooting i am learning comes from yang family and from CMC's books, he did not teach the three nails theory that is innovation from CC Chen.  I am just trying to fit the theory i am learning through books with what i am doing.  i appreciate your help in my understanding.  thanks

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> My understanding is that once you have completed Shoulder Stroke, the body then turns to the left and the left foot steps forward into empty stance as you split the arms into White Crane. I'm not sure I have seen Fu Zhong Wen stepping back though.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
You are right..i do not know what i thought i saw.  thanks, my error

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

in taiji does it change anything for rooting if you are flat footed?

marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> in taiji does it change anything for rooting if you are flat footed?
> 
> marlon


 
As long as you have a yongquan point 
http://www.healthphone.com/consump_english/a_energy_train/first_aid/images/yongquan.gif
for traditional Taiji 

And the 3 nails 
http://www.williamccchen.com/3nails1.jpg
for CMC from William CC Chen...no


----------



## marlon

what is the difference btwn 'brush knee push' and 'embrace the tiger'  The student teaching did not know and does his exactly the same although cmc positions the lower hand palm up/ sideways

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

The applications are basically the same. The difference is in Brush and Push your opponent is attacking from the front, whilst in Embrace the Tiger, the opponent is attacking you from behind. The other differnce is of course, after Brush and Push you move into Strum the Lute, whereas after Embrace the Tiger you transition into  Grasp the Birds Tail.

Hope this helps

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> The applications are basically the same. The difference is in Brush and Push your opponent is attacking from the front, whilst in Embrace the Tiger, the opponent is attacking you from behind. The other differnce is of course, after Brush and Push you move into Strum the Lute, whereas after Embrace the Tiger you transition into Grasp the Birds Tail.
> 
> Hope this helps
> 
> Very best wishes


 
thank you.  To be clear you are saying the postures themselves are exactly the same but the application is different and the sequence after is different.  The names are very different and i thought the posture would be different.  single whip and diagonal single whip the same posture done in different directions...so i thought this must be something different

respectfully,
marlon

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

No. The application is the same in that you are blocking and diverting a punch whilst returning a strike with the opposite hand. You need to always distinguish between posture and application. They may not be the same.:erg: There can be several different applications for the same posture. For instance in Strum the Lute you can dislocate the opponents right shoulder by locking his elbow with your left hand on the outside of his arm, or you can break his arm or even throw him by locking his arm with your left hand inside his elbow.

Hope this is not confusing
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

got it, thank you

marlon


----------



## marlon

i see many elbow strikes in chen but where are they in yang taiji?

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> i see many elbow strikes in chen but where are they in yang taiji?
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon


 

Traditinal Yang Long form - Deflect (aka block), Parry, Punch

Also from the 13 postures Zhou or Chou


----------



## marlon

Xue Sheng said:


> Traditinal Yang Long form - Deflect (aka block), Parry, Punch
> 
> Also from the 13 postures Zhou or Chou


 
there is an elbow strike in deflect parry punch?

marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

one is fairly obvious, once you realize it or are shown, the other is not.


----------



## marlon

ok so there are 2 elbow strikes in block parry punch?!! i can see an elbow before the 'block' which coould also be a dropping backfist but...i guess i need to learn to see better.

marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

Get the form first and don't worry about it. 

Work on the 13 postures and you will see Zhou and how it works and to be honest it is a more powerful stike than what you get from Block, Perry, Punch.

Look at your elbow positions in the posture and know that in applicatoin things don't always look or work exactly the same.


----------



## marlon

thank you

marlon


----------



## marlon

is the yang long form supposed to end in the same place it started?  I am ending way to the left of where i began, perhaps i need to modify my stepping?

are there any downward pressing motion in grasp the sparoows tail?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

No, the form should end as you are finding it, i.e. not at the starting point.

As you will know, Grasp the Sparrow's Tail is a series of arm locks. During the transition from Roll Back to Press there is a downward pressure before applying the actual press. Other than that of course, there is downward pressure from one had in order to apply the arm locks.

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

thanks.  I have been going crazy trying to work it out.  i use Master Fu's youtude video as my model and he seems to fininh at the same point, but of course youtube can be misleading.

marlon


----------



## marlon

does anyone know of any good yang long form vids on the net (youtube or otherwise) of a relatively  young person performing?  Master Fu's (sr) video is great but i would like to see the kicks better.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

Is the energy of AN downwards?
any one know what happened to XS?

marlon


----------



## marlon

does Yang taiji have applications mainly against pushes and grabs?  Someone was showing me applications and none of them dealt with a punch to the head straight or hook.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## pete

marlon said:
			
		

> Is the energy of AN downwards?


 yes


			
				marlon said:
			
		

> does Yang taiji have applications mainly against pushes and grabs? Someone was showing me applications and none of them dealt with a punch to the head straight or hook.


can't speak for yang style specifically (east winds can though), but tai chi applications should apply principles of yielding and adhering while neutralizing and counter-attacking. its easier to stick to a 'hands on' attack an 'go with it', than a 'projectile' attack in flight. it requires more skill to make it work against an punch and still keep to tai chi principles.


----------



## grydth

marlon said:


> does Yang taiji have applications mainly against pushes and grabs?  Someone was showing me applications and none of them dealt with a punch to the head straight or hook.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Our sifu (CMC Yang derivative) taught a variety of techniques against punch attacks. Some days it seemed that was all we defended against.

He had an interesting way of teaching.... he'd pick a posture and ask what we thought the defense application was.... I'd guess and would always be wrong, earning me the honor of dummy to illustrate actual move upon ... After several repetitions, then he'd ask again what I had thought, wonder aloud if that might work as well - and demo that in front of the class, on me, several more times. Ouch.

Those of you who have stock in pharmaceutical companies making ibuprofin have me to thank for your dividends.


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

Yes. Traditional Yang has many applications for dealing with punches to the head. One of the classic ones and one that is easiest to apply is "Fan through Back". It deals with a right handed punch. Step to the left, right hand contacts opponents hand or wrist, leaving the left hand to counter attack. Dealing with a left handed punch you can use "Step up Defelect Parry Punch". There are of course many, many more.

Incidentally, Xue Sheng decided to close his account. A great loss to this board.

Very best wishes


----------



## pete

east winds, 

   we go through progression of grab-push-punch in training applications, taking one from easiest to most difficult to maintain tai chi principles and defend effectively. 

  with the grab or hold he is already attached, so you just have to maintain the connection. 

  with a push, he is in process of becoming attached and is less likley to immediately retract (think pushing through or shoving), so you have to yield to connect, then maintain.

   with a punch, strike, or kick, he has no intention of attaching to you. he wants to tag you, then retract. so for strikes, you have to position yourself, yield, then FORM a connection to attached and stick to.

   you can go through any posture and apply to each scenario.  unfortunately, many dont make it past grab or lose tai chi principles when dealing with strikes.  i am curious if you have similar methods in your style, or if you typically utilize specific posture/applications for grabs, others for pushes, and others for strikes.

  btw, do not share same opinion of our recently departed 'friend.'  i see it more as addition-by-subtraction, or in Taoist terms removal of the non-essential...

pete


----------



## NanFeiShen

marlon said:


> does Yang taiji have applications mainly against pushes and grabs?  Someone was showing me applications and none of them dealt with a punch to the head straight or hook.
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Straight Punches : 
Play the lute
Step up and raise Hands
White Crane Spreads its wings
Kick With left or right Heel
Fist Under Elbow

Hook Punches:
Fair Lady
Fan through Back


----------



## East Winds

pete,

I would not disagree with what you have written. I think it is a bad idea to have fixed applications for fixed situations. Taijiquan need flexibility in its approach to dealing with offensive attacks.  You use the application that is appropriate for the occasion.  If your mindset says "I must use a particular posture to deal with a particular incoming attack" then you are in trouble!!!! The beauty of Traditional Yang is that each posture can be used in a variety of ways. Much like I posted on the sword forum, we practice using 2, 3, 4 and 5 man drills for applications. At its most active, you do not know which sort of attack you are going to be presented with as you turn to each opponent in turn. The object is to use one of the Taiji postures applying Taiji principles to each attack. It certainly keeps you on your toes and if possible you should have an observer to comment on your performance. The key is using the applications as you would in the form only at normal speed. Another practise we use to train taiji principles is free style push hands i.e. more or less grappling with either fixed step or free step movement. Again the key must be the 12 essences.

Very best wishes

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

12 essesces?

marlon


----------



## grydth

East Winds said:


> pete,
> 
> I would not disagree with what you have written. I think it is a bad idea to have fixed applications for fixed situations. Taijiquan need flexibility in its approach to dealing with offensive attacks.  You use the application that is appropriate for the occasion.  If your mindset says "I must use a particular posture to deal with a particular incoming attack" then you are in trouble!!!! The beauty of Traditional Yang is that each posture can be used in a variety of ways. Much like I posted on the sword forum, we practice using 2, 3, 4 and 5 man drills for applications. At its most active, you do not know which sort of attack you are going to be presented with as you turn to each opponent in turn. The object is to use one of the Taiji postures applying Taiji principles to each attack. It certainly keeps you on your toes and if possible you should have an observer to comment on your performance. The key is using the applications as you would in the form only at normal speed. Another practise we use to train taiji principles is free style push hands i.e. more or less grappling with either fixed step or free step movement. Again the key must be the 12 essences.
> 
> Very best wishes
> 
> Very best wishes



This sounds like a terrific class. Your point about not having only 1 fixed response to a particular threat is sound across all MA... once you become predictable, the next stop is extinction.


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

Sorry, of course I meant the 10 essences left to us by Yang Cheng-fu. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://www.uswushuacademy.com/articles/10essences.htm

Here is an excellent explanation of them from Coach Christopher Pei.

Vey best wishes


----------



## marlon

btw my brother in law just came back from China at a competition / seminar with Yang Jun.  He loved it.  He pushed hands with Yang Jun and said he felt like such a pro because Yang Jun was sticking to him so effortlessly!  He has decided to give up choi li fut and focus on Taiji exclusively.  He also noted that Yang Jun is very martially focused in his teachings

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

i am being corrected in the form.  There is a traditional hand position inbtwn the brush knee postures where the hand that brushed is palm up fingers straight and pointed at the mid forearm of the other hand.  first how does the waist direct this movement and second what is the application?
Any answers would be appreciated.  I learned the form from FU sources and they do not seem to do it.  But apparently Yang Jun teaches it

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

I assume you mean that after the hand (lets say the left hand) has brushed it finishes at the side palm down. It then turns palm up as the waist turns to the left and the fingers drive upwards to commence the next brush. The turning palm up and drive upwards is to break a wrist grasp. Try it with a partner. Get him to grasp your wrist then turn your palm and drive upwards with the fingers to see the effect. (The brushing palm always stays palm down). I'm not sure at what stage it points at the opposing forearm though??
:shrug:
Hope this helps

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> I assume you mean that after the hand (lets say the left hand) has brushed it finishes at the side palm down. It then turns palm up as the waist turns to the left and the fingers drive upwards to commence the next brush. The turning palm up and drive upwards is to break a wrist grasp. Try it with a partner. Get him to grasp your wrist then turn your palm and drive upwards with the fingers to see the effect. (The brushing palm always stays palm down). I'm not sure at what stage it points at the opposing forearm though??
> :shrug:
> Hope this helps
> 
> Very best wishes


 
This type of application i am very familiar with Kempo has over kill in the application dept.  from multiple situations, so i can see many applications to movements as it is part of the core of my SK training. With taiji i am more intersted in the how of taiji skill and moving energy as a focus in terms of application.  However, for the movement in question i have been corrected to have the brushing left hand rotate and point to the right forearmbut my waist is turning left!!  Anywho maybe i misunderstood.
respectfully,
marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

As you know, the Brushing Hand is to deal with a punch to the head or a kick or a knee to the groin. Turning the palm upwards would therefore weaken the application. Energy of course comes from the waist and is transmitted into the hands therefore if the waist and hands are going in different directions then you have a flaw in your form.

Keep up the practise

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

thank you. as you transit btwn left and right brush knee posturs do you shift your wirght to the back leg first?

marlon


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

Yes. But only some of your weight. You need to do this in order to reposition the left foot to 45 degrees.

Very best wishes


----------



## marlon

when you do the brush knee the power comes from the back leg?  Does the power from the push comes from the front?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

can someone explain the differences between jin and qi, to me?

Thank you


marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

Jin is a Chinese rapper and Qi is the Taiwanese movie star that was in The Transporter :uhyeah:

Qi = physical life force. Strong Qi you are healthy weak qi you are sick no qi you are dead

Jin = power

nei jin = internal power


----------



## marlon

many thanks...chinese rap is cool!!


----------



## marlon

is there a significance to the way he is forming his hand througout the form?  are there any good examples of "stopping without stopping" on youtube?
thanks

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## Xue Sheng

marlon said:


> are there any good examples of "stopping without stopping" on youtube?
> thanks
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Tung Ying Jie, Tung Hu Ling, Fu Shengyuan


----------



## East Winds

marlon,

The hand position he uses is called "Tile Palm" (fingers open and palm curved much like a Chinese roof tile - hence the name). It opens two important acu-pressure points on the hands - the Laogong and the Tigers Mouth, important in the transmission of energy. There are only 3 hand positions in Traditional Yang - Tile Palm, Fist and Hook or Beak. Any other hand position is a flaw in your form. I agree with Xue Sheng on the "Stopping without Stopping" issue.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

My sifu is not that concerned with the hands being in Tile Palm he does like them open and relaxed when not in Fist or Cranes Beak. There is a lot he feels that will develop naturally if you just train the form properly as did his teacher. 

However when I was training Chen keeping the hands in Tile palm was very important.


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> The hand position he uses is called "Tile Palm" (fingers open and palm curved much like a Chinese roof tile - hence the name). It opens two important acu-pressure points on the hands - the Laogong and the Tigers Mouth, important in the transmission of energy. There are only 3 hand positions in Traditional Yang - Tile Palm, Fist and Hook or Beak. Any other hand position is a flaw in your form. I agree with Xue Sheng on the "Stopping without Stopping" issue.
> 
> Very best wishes


 

thanks , i have never thought of the tiger mouth as an point to issue energy!  I love learning and am really loving taiji


----------



## marlon

East Winds said:


> marlon,
> 
> The hand position he uses is called "Tile Palm" (fingers open and palm curved much like a Chinese roof tile - hence the name). It opens two important acu-pressure points on the hands - the Laogong and the Tigers Mouth, important in the transmission of energy. There are only 3 hand positions in Traditional Yang - Tile Palm, Fist and Hook or Beak. Any other hand position is a flaw in your form. I agree with Xue Sheng on the "Stopping without Stopping" issue.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
i do not see a "stop" at all, yet someone i know who studies traditional yang often commented that i only do the stopping without stopping when i change direction  (actually he said sometimes, it was i who noted that he saw them only when i changeddirections) but he felt that my reading of CMC had made me more 'flow-y' than traditional yang style

marlon


----------

