# I don't understand??



## lonekimono10 (Jan 30, 2006)

I hope someone can help me to understand, the other day i got a call from one of my BB's (he has been a BB for I year) he said to me that he would like to start his own style, i told him all the things that a teacher tells his or her student's but WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? i also said to him that he has not the time line in the arts and that people will say things about it.
i also told him to remember my time line and when i started in 1965, i don't understand?? if someone can add something please i can use some help here.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2006)

Start his own style?  and he wants, I assume, to be Grandmaster?  

Given you say he has been a black belt for only a year, I assume he is First Degree.  Does he have experience in other systems?  What is his approach to this, is it combining elements of several systems into one, or just changing what he has learned from you?  If he wants to combine several arts, why not just keep practicing several arts without the charade that he made something new out of them.  Remixing what already exists is not a new style, in my opinion.

I agree, this is bizarre, but not to be unexpected with how things go in the martial arts today.  Everyone wants to be grandmaster, or make a big business out of it and this is one way to do it.  I am sorry but not sure what to suggest.  Please give us some more background on what his approach to this is and any other experience he may have.  At least then maybe we can try to understand where he is coming from.  I probably still wouldn't be supportive of it, but at least knowing what his full background is might help with the discussion.


----------



## Kosho-Monk (Jan 30, 2006)

Master Elmer,

Perhaps you could explain to this student that he should ask himself how much he believes he knows and how much he believes there is left to learn. If he thinks about these things maybe it will help him.

But maybe their is something else going on.  Perhaps he is bored and not feeling like he's getting any better.  If that's the case then maybe he feels that he's the best he can be.

Asking him straight out why he wants to do this is probably the best approach to get directly to the issue.

Hmmm.  Another idea is to ask him to show you the curriculum for his new system.  Ask him to explain the new concepts and principles that he'll be teaching.  Ask what his system teaches that is different from what you or someone else teaches.  This might get him thinking or least opening up more to you.


With respect,
John Evans


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 30, 2006)

His mother art is what i teach, i will be talking to him later and will try to understand what's going on, why do they think they know more then they do?


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2006)

Well, this is actually kind of interesting.  I would suggest you just be open with him and try to get a dialog going without making him feel like he is being attacked for his idea.  Hopefully the foolishness of the idea will come clear to him, but in the meantime try to understand where he is coming from and why he thinks he wants to do this, and why he thinks he is capable and qualified to do this.


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 30, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Well, this is actually kind of interesting. I would suggest you just be open with him and try to get a dialog going without making him feel like he is being attacked for his idea. Hopefully the foolishness of the idea will come clear to him, but in the meantime try to understand where he is coming from and why he thinks he wants to do this, and why he thinks he is capable and qualified to do this.




i will do my best thanks


----------



## arnisador (Jan 30, 2006)

I'd want to know if this is simply ego ("I've always wanted to be the founder of my own art--I have no idea what it'll look like yet") or a deep-seated conviction ("I've developed my own personal style over the years, and I believe it's worth codifying and sharing with others"). In my experience, it's generally the former. For every Morihei Ueshiba or Jigaro Kano or Bruce Lee who has a great new idea and a truly different expression of the art, there are a hundred people who want to be called Soke.


----------



## modarnis (Jan 30, 2006)

Its sad, but many view BB as an endpoint.  Most of us, who have spent the majority of our lives training, realize it is only one stop on a long journey.  My guess is you already know which way any conversation will end up

Of course people often want to use the arts to make a living.  With that, they look to call themselves master or grandmaster to have credibility.  They are cheating themselves, and certainly doing a disservice to their instructors who paid dues before them with sweat and dedication


----------



## Seabrook (Jan 30, 2006)

So many martial artists think they know more than they do, but yikes, a black belt of one year....

He is just starting a new stage of his training.

The double-bar syndrome is spreading.


----------



## Rick Wade (Jan 30, 2006)

Recommend pointing him in the direction of Bruce Calkins thread and ask him if he wants to be like this.  

Bruce obviously has some knowledge of the Martial Arts but not near enough to be a founder of his own style.

Let history be his teacher, in this case bad history.

V/R

Rick English


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 30, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> So many martial artists think they know more than they do, but yikes, a black belt of one year....
> 
> He is just starting a new stage of his training.
> 
> The double-bar syndrome is spreading.


MR Seabrook you took the words right out of my mouth,
by the way he will be with me at the camp that you and i will be teaching at


----------



## DavidCC (Jan 30, 2006)

Maybe he should be shown how much he doesn't know yet...

Every time I think I have found something that my instructor isn;t aware of, he sho sme how he tried to teach me that last year and I didn't get it   It's frustrating and encouraging at the same time.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 30, 2006)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> I hope someone can help me to understand, the other day i got a call from one of my BB's (he has been a BB for I year) he said to me that he would like to start his own style, i told him all the things that a teacher tells his or her student's but WHY DO YOU WANT TO DO THIS? i also said to him that he has not the time line in the arts and that people will say things about it.
> i also told him to remember my time line and when i started in 1965, i don't understand?? if someone can add something please i can use some help here.


 
   I remember having a similar conversation with you about the same thing George, didn't stop you either.    Let him do what HE WANTS to do, that's what you did.

DarK LorD


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 30, 2006)

Let me guess. It will be an adults only death tech style because the master doesn't understand the value of control.
Sean


----------



## Sam (Jan 30, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> The double-bar syndrome is spreading.



What's this?


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 30, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I remember having a similar conversation with you about the same thing George, didn't stop you either. Let him do what HE WANTS to do, that's what you did.
> 
> DarK LorD



well frist clyde this is not the same thing and i have more time in the art's then him, but look this is not about ME,and i did not try to do something 
as a !st dregee BB , and as far as me doing what i wanted to do maybe if you checked out about what I did you would understand a little better,
thanks for the put down i know everyone has something to say about people in the arts, and i KNOW YOU HAVE alot to say (u always do) 

thanks.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2006)

Sam said:
			
		

> What's this?


 
I think it is in reference to the two large red bars worn on the end of the belt to denote 10th degree black belt.


----------



## eyebeams (Jan 30, 2006)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Recommend pointing him in the direction of Bruce Calkins thread and ask him if he wants to be like this.
> 
> Bruce obviously has some knowledge of the Martial Arts but not near enough to be a founder of his own style.
> 
> Let history be his teacher, in this case bad history.



Why? If he followed in the footsteps of Parker and a whole host of kenpo pioneers, he'd definitely found his own style.

The Calkins threads amused me because the difference between him and the founders of the styles studied by his critics is not that big.


----------



## Sapper6 (Jan 30, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Why? If he followed in the footsteps of Parker and a whole host of kenpo pioneers, he'd definitely found his own style.
> 
> The Calkins threads amused me because the difference between him and the founders of the styles studied by his critics is not that big.


 
Ed Parker had talent and skill.

i wouldn't suggest equating Calkins with Parker.  you'd be disappointed.


----------



## eyebeams (Jan 30, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> Ed Parker had talent and skill.



Eventually, yes. Though the average martial artist has much better technical skills than in previous decades.* Talent went farther in the past than it does now. Now that physical skills development is supported by scientific methods at all levels, the winners from the prior hit and miss approach cant get by on their raw ability.

In essence: A great number of style founders (not just kenpo and not just in the US) would not be able to credibly do so in the current environment -- and that's even leaving aside dodgy belt and lineage questions.

*Technical skill and fighting ability are not exactly the same thing.


----------



## punisher73 (Jan 30, 2006)

Too bad the days of having to "prove" your style in challenge matches has gone by the wayside.  It would clear up alot of things popping up nowadays


----------



## jdinca (Jan 30, 2006)

You didn't mention his age. Could that coupled with a case of BB fever be the cause? Could he be unhappy with what he's learned since earning his belt, or does he think he now knows all he needs to know? There's a lot of variables.

I would ask him to show you what he would do different in his style and explain how it's better. That alone could help him realize he's not thought this through far enough. Dreaming about having your own style may sound grand but, as many who've tried know, the reality can be quite different.

Years before I started, a student at our school left as a 1st degree brown belt. He later started his own "style" of Bok Fu Do. There are several schools and all have the McDojo reputation. In addition, it has dragged our system and our GM down with it just by association, even though there is no connection between our schools. You can't stop this guy from striking out on his own but you can help him "see the light", not only because it would be the right thing to do but also to protect your reputation.


----------



## green meanie (Jan 31, 2006)

I think you should just let him go.


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 31, 2006)

jdinca said:
			
		

> You didn't mention his age. Could that coupled with a case of BB fever be the cause? Could he be unhappy with what he's learned since earning his belt, or does he think he now knows all he needs to know? There's a lot of variables.
> 
> I would ask him to show you what he would do different in his style and explain how it's better. That alone could help him realize he's not thought this through far enough. Dreaming about having your own style may sound grand but, as many who've tried know, the reality can be quite different.
> 
> Years before I started, a student at our school left as a 1st degree brown belt. He later started his own "style" of Bok Fu Do. There are several schools and all have the McDojo reputation. In addition, it has dragged our system and our GM down with it just by association, even though there is no connection between our schools. You can't stop this guy from striking out on his own but you can help him "see the light", not only because it would be the right thing to do but also to protect your reputation.





he is 31


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 31, 2006)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> well frist clyde this is not the same thing and i have more time in the art's then him, but look this is not about ME,and i did not try to do something
> as a !st dregee BB , and as far as me doing what i wanted to do maybe if you checked out about what I did you would understand a little better,
> thanks for the put down i know everyone has something to say about people in the arts, and i KNOW YOU HAVE alot to say (u always do)
> 
> thanks.


 
This is as much about you as it is him, you set the example and he's following.    You decided to create your own system because YOU WANTED to, after being told countless times what you were doing could be improved, a response you DIDN'T WANT to hear, so you did your own thing.    What makes this 31yo Black Belt any different?

DarK LorD


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jan 31, 2006)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> Ed Parker had talent and skill.
> 
> i wouldn't suggest equating Calkins with Parker. you'd be disappointed.


I agree.

This is what seperates very few men from the rest.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Jan 31, 2006)

His training must've been way better than mine. I remember when I got my first degree black belt I fealt that I simply had enough grasp of the basics to really start learning the good stuff. 

Regardless of your efforts I guess they'll always be one or two students that just won't get "it." Your options are limited. You can try logic and reason but if that fails, what then? You can have a friendly good-bye sparring match and really show him how little he knows. But would that be appropriate or set the right example? Probably not, though some may think otherwise. LOL. 

Is this guy planning on teaching his "style" in the same area you teach?


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 31, 2006)

George, just wait until your next class and award him an honorary 9th degree.......and wish him good luck with his new style.


----------



## arnisador (Jan 31, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> In essence: A great number of style founders (not just kenpo and not just in the US) would not be able to credibly do so in the current environment -- and that's even leaving aside dodgy belt and lineage questions.



An interesting point. Every new founder is looked at with heavy suspicion these days, yet there are many in the past who founded solid arts that are truly innovative and useful contributions (e.g., in founding Aikido, or even Isshin-ryu).

If Ed Parker were in his 30s today, there might never be a Kenpo! He might seem like just another wannabe to the masses, and attract only a limited following.


----------



## jdinca (Jan 31, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> This is as much about you as it is him, you set the example and he's following. You decided to create your own system because YOU WANTED to, after being told countless times what you were doing could be improved, a response you DIDN'T WANT to hear, so you did your own thing. What makes this 31yo Black Belt any different?
> 
> DarK LorD


 
That's a good point.


----------



## Kalicombat (Jan 31, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> Eventually, yes. Though the average martial artist has much better technical skills than in previous decades.
> 
> *Technical skill and fighting ability are not exactly the same thing.


 
You think that in the age of Mc Dojo's and mail order blackbelt programs that "the average martial artist has much better technical skills than in previous decades"? I don't think so. Some, maybe, but the AVERAGE, no way. Average people do average things. Average martial artists go to average schools, run by average instructors, content with being average. These average schools are crippled by the fear of law suits and as such, keep contact to a minimum. Average instructors don't want to appear average, so they set up programs like BLACKBELT CLUBS and collect all that ca$h up front. Average schools push average students through material so that Joe Average doesn't get discouraged and go do some other average thing. Average schools teach material, but they don't train the individual, a big difference. Teach an average person martial arts material, and they become average martial artists.....train an average person to use the material they've been taught, as well as train their minds to submit to pain and exhaustion, their bodies to endure the pain and exhaustion, and you no longer have an AVERAGE martial artist....

Just some thoughts,
Gary C.


"DONT BE AVERAGE, NEVER SETTLE FOR MEDIOCRITY"


----------



## Mortenrasmussen (Jan 31, 2006)

Gary C:

One of the best posts I have ever had the opportunity to read on MartialTalk!!!


----------



## lonekimono10 (Jan 31, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> This is as much about you as it is him, you set the example and he's following. You decided to create your own system because YOU WANTED to, after being told countless times what you were doing could be improved, a response you DIDN'T WANT to hear, so you did your own thing. What makes this 31yo Black Belt any different?
> 
> DarK LorD


Clyde what the heck r u talking about? i want to know one thing
who told me countless times about what i was doing?????
u my friend need to wake up, look clyde worry about YOU!!!!
and stop trying to be the kenpo police, i'm fed up with it,
and one more thing you don't know me to talk crap like that, oh you might have some of the young guys scared out here,but WHO DIED AND LEFT YOU BOSS,i have no more to say to you.


----------



## Sapper6 (Jan 31, 2006)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Clyde what the heck r u talking about? i want to know one thing
> who told me countless times about what i was doing?????
> u my friend need to wake up, look clyde worry about YOU!!!!
> and stop trying to be the kenpo police, i'm fed up with it,
> and one more thing you don't know me to talk crap like that, oh you might have some of the young guys scared out here,but WHO DIED AND LEFT YOU BOSS,i have no more to say to you.


 
i'd say you asked for opinion and advice, and regardless of your relationship with members of this forum, they gave it to you as they saw fitting.  as an instuctor, you are influential in their paths.  should teaching the martial arts be, "do as i say, not as i do...?

i'd suggest you scrap the idea of asking for forum advice.  it's your student.  do what you think you need to do.  don't ask for advice only to chastise those who give it.


----------



## evenflow1121 (Jan 31, 2006)

Yikes, 31 I dont know if you could convince him otherwise, when I first read the post I thought he might have been some 18-21 yr old, good luck.


----------



## MJS (Jan 31, 2006)

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT Mod


----------



## green meanie (Feb 1, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> An interesting point. Every new founder is looked at with heavy suspicion these days, yet there are many in the past who founded solid arts that are truly innovative and useful contributions (e.g., in founding Aikido, or even Isshin-ryu).
> 
> If Ed Parker were in his 30s today, there might never be a Kenpo! He might seem like just another wannabe to the masses, and attract only a limited following.


 
An excellent point.


----------



## eyebeams (Feb 1, 2006)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> You think that in the age of Mc Dojo's and mail order blackbelt programs that "the average martial artist has much better technical skills than in previous decades"? I don't think so. Some, maybe, but the AVERAGE, no way. Average people do average things. Average martial artists go to average schools, run by average instructors, content with being average. These average schools are crippled by the fear of law suits and as such, keep contact to a minimum. Average instructors don't want to appear average, so they set up programs like BLACKBELT CLUBS and collect all that ca$h up front. Average schools push average students through material so that Joe Average doesn't get discouraged and go do some other average thing. Average schools teach material, but they don't train the individual, a big difference. Teach an average person martial arts material, and they become average martial artists.....train an average person to use the material they've been taught, as well as train their minds to submit to pain and exhaustion, their bodies to endure the pain and exhaustion, and you no longer have an AVERAGE martial artist....
> 
> Just some thoughts,
> Gary C.
> ...



No, people have better technical ability. There are numerous filmclips of forms and sparring of all types from 30+ years ago, and you can see that average quality has dramatically improved. There's documentary evidence of the change.

On the other hand, as I said this is not the same thing as being able to fight, which includes athletic and psychological components apart from technical skill. Furthermore, application is in of itself a separate skill. You can see this in the evolution of MMA, which has rediscovered the use of many traditional fighting positions and movements once athletes discovered that straight grappling and kickboxing without a stable base doesn't cut it.


----------



## James Kovacich (Feb 2, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> You can see this in the evolution of MMA, which has rediscovered the use of many traditional fighting positions and movements once athletes discovered that straight grappling and kickboxing without a stable base doesn't cut it.


 
Can you explain your position on this is?

I do not see what you say here unless you are equating the individual teachniques used in MMA as "traditional positions." It is easy to tell that Miletich students are MMA students and NOT traditional MA students and many come in without any MA background at all. That would make them "pure" MMA'ists. Miletich fighting Systems evolved alongside the evolution of MMA in the USA.
http://miletich-fight-minn.tripod.com/

It contradicts your statement. Although he holds blackbelts you won't see evidence of it in MMA in regards to "traditional fighting positions."


----------

