# How do you cheat (or attempt to cheat) with La Just



## mango.man (Nov 17, 2010)

I don't recall every seeing any refs at USAT or California events with the LaJust crap inspecting the bottom of the foot before a fight.  I know that they now check for liquid when it was discovered that it would help establish a circuit connection.  But extra sensors taped to the heal?  Good job Taiwan.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/af...ocId=CNG.0c6a20326055f0bda6d1efcb4c089e51.b11

The things that make you say, hmmm.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

Just goes to show that along with smarter ways to score, come smarter ways to cheat.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

I wonder how long it will be before someone is caught with sensors taped to their gloves?


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

Man you ever get the feeling that the tenets are never followed anymore? I mean if you cannot beat them just go a head and cheat to win.YEA BUDDY!!!!


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Man you ever get the feeling that the tenets are never followed anymore? I mean if you cannot beat them just go a head and cheat to win.YEA BUDDY!!!!


You can't win.  Electornic scoring will have players cheating...manual scoring will have judges cheating.  ~sigh~  It is disheartening to say the least.  Tenants?  Apparently those are just some decorations for the dojang wall.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You can't win. Electornic scoring will have players cheating...manual scoring will have judges cheating. ~sigh~ It is disheartening to say the least. *Tenants? Apparently those are just some decorations for the dojang wall*.


 

No, they're the people you rent your house to. 

Have a look at fencing (the sport not the stuff that goes round the garden) they use electronic gadgets to score and have had cheating, see how they deal with it, if they have. Of course if there's more young men falling down do tell me, I'm quite fascinated by this behaviour, gives an old woman a lot of hope :lol:


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## StudentCarl (Nov 17, 2010)

The cheating will diminish as the cost goes up. If you look at all the debate here about the integrity of our olympic selection process, it's not as surprising that someone would look to stack the deck if she thought she could get away with it. It's important to make an example of her to send a clear message to others.

(Kinda makes me wonder if ringside preparation will need to be run by TSA, complete with patdowns and scanners!)

Seems to me the first appropriate response is to ban that athlete and coach from further WTF competition forever. The NGB should face probation too, as it's a lick on them to have fielded an athlete like that. 

Integrity has to be enforced to be protected. The better question than how to cheat is whether it's worth the risk. As long as it's even close to worthwhile, people will find a way.


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## ATC (Nov 17, 2010)

Simple fix. Competitors cannot provide their own equipment for major events. Equipment will be provided by the host of the event and placed on the competitors by an official of the event at the time of the match in view of each competitor and coach. This is all equipment.

I have heard of stories where they even had sensors in the shin and forearm guards. So the above can be the only way.

I knew a guy that had a prototype pair of socks that still work with the system. The prototype socks had Velcro on them so you could adjust where the sensors were placed. He did not use them but he had them with him and could have. The sensors could have been placed anywhere on the foot to give an unfair advantage.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

Due Process should be given!  But if it is determined that this type of cheating has occurred.

Life time ban?

I think that the athlete should be banned for 1 Olympic cycle 4 years and the NGB should lose a slot at the Olympics.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 17, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Due Process should be given! But if it is determined that this type of cheating has occurred.
> 
> Life time ban?
> 
> I think that the athlete should be banned for 1 Olympic cycle 4 years and the NGB should lose a slot at the Olympics.


 
I agree with due process, but this particular kind of cheating shows prior preparation and took place in an international setting. I could agree with your idea. It's hard to believe that an NGB with any integrity would give someone like that another chance. I could also see some criminal charges for the fraud, depending on how laws are written in the nation where the competition took place.


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2010)

is it really cheating if they make ALL the socks to begin with but ensure they make themselves Better ones? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  or maybe it was "knock-off" socks that weren't quite up to specs, like my wife's Coach purse!!!!!!
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	





where there's a will, theres a way.... to cheat.


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## boxking (Nov 19, 2010)

Hello all, 

I registered this account to present the incident from Taiwanese point of view. 

I would really appreciate if people who made a judgement above can reply me your opinions after reading the reports and watching the following videos, especially the full and unedited video.

https://sites.google.com/site/dirtytaekwondo2010/

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-519884

http://tw.nextmedia.com/applenews/article/art_id/32976479/IssueID/20101120


Thank you for all the time you spend.  

I would like to explain more details from the Taiwanese point of view if anyone has the interest to know what happened.


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## terryl965 (Nov 19, 2010)

Well boxking lwt mw ask this question how did the extra sensors get on her socks in the first place? Just because they was taken off before the match does not mean they was not trying to get by with something. It is true it was never used during the match but it was there and that alone stand on its own merit.


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## Carol (Nov 19, 2010)

boxking said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I registered this account to present the incident from Taiwanese point of view.
> 
> ...



Welcome Boxking!  I work with folks in Hsinchu, Taiwan.  It is nice to see you here with us. :asian:   

I do not practice TaeKwon Do, but I would enjoy hearing a Taiwanese perspective very much.


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## mango.man (Nov 19, 2010)

I am with Terry.  Just stepping into the ring with the extra sensors makes her a CHEATER!!!  I could care less if they were removed before the fight began.  She tried to pull one off and she got caught.

Kinda like Emilia Morrow doping to control her weight before the 2010 US Open.  Hey she didn't medal in the event so I guess there should have been no punishment?  BUZZZZZZ!!!!!! WRONG ANSWER!!!!

You cheat and get caught (at any stage of the process) you get punished!

I believe that Yang Shu-chun should be banned from competition for 4 years and all Taiwan TKD players should be barred from the 2012 London Games.


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## boxking (Nov 19, 2010)

Hello Jerry and mango, Thank you for your reply. 

Some details about the sensors' issues are mentioned in the second and the third link (pictures of the official manual for old model sock are in the video.)

The two "extra illegal sensors" are not extra. The two sensors came with  the WTF certified sock (the old model), and Yang attached the sensors  on the sock by following the official Instructons. 

The smallest size of new model socks (23.5) is bigger than Yang's foot size (22.5), and that is the reason why Yang brought two pair of socks, the new model and the old model, which has Yang' foot size. Yang was wearing the new model sock initially during the pre-inspection, but the inspector had asked Yang to change the sock. So Yang changed her sock from the new model to old model, and the old model sock passed the inspection that was signed by the official inspectors.


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## boxking (Nov 19, 2010)

Hello, Carol,

It is really nice to meet you.


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## mango.man (Nov 19, 2010)

Sorry boxking.  Ignorance is not a defense.  It is up to the players and their coaching staff to know the rules and abide by them.  If someone in the inspection line told her to violate the rules and wear improper equipment it is up to the player and the coaching staff to point out that there is a problem.

Yang Shu-chun is a cheater and deserves the full punishment that any cheater that gets caught should be given.


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## taekwondodo (Nov 19, 2010)

Here is an update as of yesterday:
"The match started with everything seemingly as normal as it should in  the first 45 seconds of the first round until the engineer from  Manufacturer of the *Protective Scoring System* (*PSS*),  *LaJust*, saw something unusual about the way the  Chinese Taipei player was scoring and the look of her socks. At this point he asked the center referee to stop the match to check  the special socks that are worn by all the players when using the  electronic system.
 As requested by the engineer, the referee stopped the match to check  the players socks when he noticed that the Chinese Taipei player had  illegally added 2 extra sensors to the heal of her socks

After a lengthy review and assessment of the evidence and talking  with the *LaJust* engineer, the center referee in the  match and receiving their signed affidavit of the incident the illegal  act committed by the Chinese Taipei they gave a chance to the President  of the Chinese Taipei Taekwondo Associations and Head of the Team to  present their side of this reprehensible episode of manipulation of the  Rules & Regulations.
 After listening to the Chinese Taipei officials and taking into  consideration that this act may have been the work of a few and the  rights of other athletes from Chinese Taipei team, the *WTF*  appointed *Technical Delegate* and the *Competition  Supervisory Board* decided to only ban the player and the 2  coach involved and not the whole Chinese Taipei team from the remaining  of the championship and make the following recommendation to the *Asian  Taekwondo Union*:
.
_*** The Chinese Taipei  player, coaches to be banned until their case is heard by the World  Taekwondo Federation Ethics Committee._
_* The Chinese Taipei Taekwondo  Association and its officials to be investigated further by the WTF  Ethics Committee and the proper punishment be handed down for the  incident to stop any future attempts to manipulate the WTF Competition  Rules & Regulations."_

*Budomart* (*Taiwan*), which supplies  electronic socks made by South Korea-based *Lajust* to  Taiwans taekwondo team, said that according to the World Taekwondo  Federations (WTFs) website, both old and new models can be used at  official taekwondo events until May 17, 2012.


 After Taiwans *Yang Shu-chun* was disqualified from  the *Asian Games* on Wednesday for using extra sensors in  her electronic socks, some media reported that the old version of the  socks had been banned from competitions since July.


 The older version of the footgear has sensors that adhere to the  surface of the sock while in the new version, the sensors are sewn into  the sock.


*Budomart* stressed in its statement that the *WTF*  has sent messages to its members saying that certified *Lajust*  brand electronic socks, even if they are old models, can continue to be  used.


 It said the electronic socks made by *Lajust* have  been certified by the *Asian Taekwondo Union* for use in  all *World Taekwondo Federation* competitions, including  the ongoing *Asian Games*.


 On claims by *WTF* officials that *Yang*  added electronic sensors to her heels, *Budomart* said  the old model socks have an extra sensor pad on the heel, which can be  seen in the instruction booklet provided with the footgear.


 On Thursday, *WTF Secretary-General* *Yang  Jin-suk* said at a press conference in *Guangzhou*  that *Lajust* had never made a product with a sensor on  the back of the shoe and accused *Yang* of trimming other  pads to fit the heel location.


 The manufacturers representative also said that *out of 12 pairs of  electronic socks supplied to Taiwans athletes, Yang  and Huang Hsien-yung, who won a gold medal at the Asian  Games, used the old models, while the other 10 used the new  ones.*"


*.*


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## boxking (Nov 19, 2010)

Sorry mango that I do not quite understand your statements here. Correct me If I miss understood.

The request was asked by the official inspector, not someone because the new model socks were not sensitive enough. The old model sock was signed off and deemed 'ok' by the official inspectors. Wouldn't it be pointless for the inspection in an international event if the signature of the official inspector did not count?

Not to mention that both the new model and old model socks are WTF certified until 2012/5/17, so none of them are improper equipments to wear.   

The reason Yang got disqualified changed several times.

First, they claimed Yang fixed back the "extra sensors" after inspection, which is against the live video.

Later on, the judge apologize for the statement above and claimed the reason Yang got disqualified is because the "extra sensors" are illegal, which were not made by the Lajust.

The local agent of Lajust made the announcement that the sensors came with the socks.

Soonly, the reason for disqualification became that the sensors were attached at the wrong place. But the sensors were attached following the official manual.


I am not here trying to convice anyone's opinion, and no one can force others to change their thoughts. I am just thinking maybe I can provide the point of view from Taiwanese about this incident that we believe Yang did not cheat.

Thank you mango, and everyone else again for spending time watching the video and news.


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## ATC (Nov 20, 2010)

These are the same socks that I was talking about in my post above. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1337914&postcount=8

The sensors can be moved and placed just about anywhere on the sock. The guy I know did not use them but he stated the same thing as this Yang person. They were legal to use according to the rules. This was at the 2010 U.S. Open.

She may have a case. She was winning the match with head kicks anyway. The Chinese fighter was clearly out matched.

I say let the process take it course.


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## Master Law (Nov 20, 2010)

ATC said:


> These are the same socks that I was talking about in my post above. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1337914&postcount=8
> 
> The sensors can be moved and placed just about anywhere on the sock. The guy I know did not use them but he stated the same thing as this Yang person. They were legal to use according to the rules. This was at the 2010 U.S. Open.
> 
> ...



Took the words right out of my mouth. Honestly, regardless of the socks, she was winning by headshots. Even those that do not practice any martial arts can see that. Plus, if the official inspector said OK to the socks... aren't they OK? Or am I missing something here?

Anyway, the issue here is if she was cheating or not, if those sensors were extra or not, if the socks are legal or not. Obviously cheaters should be punished to the fullest extent of the committee, but right now no one is even clear if she had any wrongdoing. Lets get this straight first. Where can I go to keep a follow-up on this? Google is giving me everyone's rants.


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## bluewaveschool (Nov 20, 2010)

Seems to me that the WTF doesn't know how it's new toy works.


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## boxking (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello, ATC , Master Law, taekwondodo, and bluewaveschool


I found this forum when I was researching more information about the Lajust socks. Thank you, ATC and  taekwondodo, for the information provided.  And if anyone know that there is a new rule about the sensors that Yang against, please let me know because all I can find is the following statement on WTF Competition Rules and Interpretation, Article 11 Permitted Techniques and Areas.

"Foot technique: Delivering techniques using any part of the foot below the ankle bone."

Actually, Yang's opponent in the video is Vietnamese, not Chinese.

Some commented that the gold metal in women's 49 kilogram division in Asian Game 2010 is between Yang and the Chinese fighter, Wu Jin Yu.  And Wu's mentor, Chao Lei (Zhao Lei) was the one leading Yang's disqualification, which made this incident became more controversial. There is an article that people found in Wu's official website about how Chao Lei helped Wu.

http://star.sports.cn/wujy/story/2008-08-20/1609458.html

People can use the google translator. The translation will be weird, but it can give you some clue.

For what I known, Taiwanese team did not have a chance to appeal against the decision at the begining of the incident, until 11/20.  

The investigation processes are not transparent, and I can only find the statements WTF (Liang Jin-suk) and ATU (Chao Lei) made in the press conferences. They claimed they have witnesses and evidences such as video during the pre-inspection. The witnesses haven't shown up. The only evidence shown in the publice are the two "extra sensors". The reason they claimed they do not release the video is protecting personal privacy.

To Master Law,

They stated that Yang fixed back the sensors after pre-inspection and claimed they have video and witness. But none of the video and witness showed up. Yang stated that the sensors were on her socks during the pre-inspection. The inspector disappeared until 11/21 saying the inspection process was following the rule but refused to confront with Yang. 

This incident is growing bigger that it starts to become a political issue, which I think is towarding a wrong dirction at this point.  Some angry Taiwanese did some irrational moves. I am embarrassed, and I think those irrational moves and overly emotion blurred the main focus here.  That is another reason that I am here because I would like to hear the opinion from the Taekwondo fighters, without arguing all the political issues.  

I would like to give more information and the follow up, but I would say the all information I provided will be from the Taiwanese point of view. 

This is one of the Taiwan's news website.

http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?Type=Eng_Forum&TNo=11

This is the i-report, not the official CNN.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-519884



I could not conclude about the wrongdoing part before the investigation result come out. But personally, I believe Yang did not cheat, never have a second doubt about this.   

I am looking forward for a explanation supported by documented evidences. 

 Thank you everyone who give a opinion. 





To bluewaveschool,

I think the controversy part is about the old model socks. And I wish  they can show the documented rule stated how the old model sensors were  miss placed against the rule. 

And again and again (ha), thank you for your opinion.


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## boxking (Nov 21, 2010)

I just found a new website, it has news from WTF, ETU, and ATU

http://www.tpf.kr/2009tpf/en/main.asp


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## Archtkd (Nov 21, 2010)

Does the WTF sparring rule (eh, statute) stating that any part of the foot below the ankle can score hold? If so shouldn't the whole sock of the electronic scoring system be sensitized? Why have sensors in just some part of the sock (foot), when the rule says any part of the foot can score?


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## boxking (Nov 21, 2010)

Hello, Archtkd

Fair point. That is why I am asking if anyone, as a taekwondo fighter or related, knows the rules about the old model socks and the sensors, since the media news from Taiwan or from other countries about the socks may not be hundred percent accurate at this point.  

I believe Yang did not have any intention to cheat, and I think "cheat" is a very serious word to use in a judgement that it can deny the whole value of an athlete.

I do not want to miss leading anyone to give an impression that Yang did not have any wrong doing by providing the news and information from Taiwanese (or at least my) point of view. I am not the official to judge and make the conclusion, and I am trying to hear the opinions from the taekwondo fighters about this disqualification decision.

Thank you


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## slingblade01 (Nov 21, 2010)

These videos were all over youtube about 4 days ago.

After watching about a dozen of these videos several times I am convinced of several things:

1. Yang was NOT cheating. In fact, she was beating her opponent with inferior equipment. 

She complied with the referees at check-in and changed her newer model socks for the older models. The smallest newer socks, 23.5, are one size too big for Yang, 22.5, and do not PROPERLY FIT. She was FORCED to use the older model socks(with legal rear sensors) and APPROVED.


2. Hong should be removed from the WTF for cheating. Chao should be investigated.

Hong was intent on Yang losing when he stripped her sensors PRIOR to the match and forced her to fight with inferior equipment. He further his intent by stopping the match AFTER she took a 9-0 lead with inferior. Furthermore, he INTERFERED with the match while he is not a referee, coach, or player.

3. The Lajust contract with the WTF should be dissolved. At last check, Lajust has 9 versions of their hogu and 13 versions of their socks (maybe more). 

4. China's hatred for Taiwan extends far beyond politics and into sports. What a shame.


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## Archtkd (Nov 21, 2010)

Here's an article that sheds some more light or confusion on Sockgate -- http://www.bworldonline.com/main/content.php?id=21567. 
On another note and maybe this is for another thread, why did the South Korean Taekwondo team perform so poorly at the 2010 Asian Games -- compared to past perfomance -- and what's the team's stated difficulty with the EBP system used at the event. The article touches on the issue.


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## d1jinx (Nov 21, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> Does the WTF sparring rule (eh, statute) stating that any part of the foot below the ankle can score hold? If so shouldn't the whole sock of the electronic scoring system be sensitized? Why have sensors in just some part of the sock (foot), when the rule says any part of the foot can score?


 
If I understand correctly, that portion of the rule is to the head.

The body has to be an propery executed technique with sufficient power to score.  In designing the foot socks, they placed sensors on the "correct" striking areas of the foot EXCEPT the heal... (the toes for example dont have sensors because its not a proper striking tool like the instep.)

I was told by a LAJUST dood, that it was explained to him about the heal sensors not being used, was kicks like the PUSH kick or cut kick are not scorable techniques.  If heal sensors were used then they would score and not be able to adjust the score each time, whereas a back kick could/would be manually entered Although the force sensor should pick it up and score anyway when propery executed and delivered. _( no name for reference but this was when the system first came out... take it or leave it... but makes sense to me)_

The thought for the sensors was well thought out but not explained.  I think if they (WTF) would EXPLAIN things and why they force the makers of the system to fabricate their equipment to thier standard, life would be easier to adjust.  Lajust had handpads and headgear with sensors but the WTF wont approve it...  WHY?

I think (*my opinion*) that this would introduce a new type of fighting, less kicking oriented.  The step in and deliver 10 rapid punches to the hogu would pop 10 points causing a crappy fight.  soon, people would not be kicking and instead boxing, which is what taekwondo is about (KICKING).  Next thing you know we would have rules like kickboxing, that requires 3 kicks a round, which people would do just to meet the quota and box the entire match.

sure punches are a part of taekwondo.... but make for a non taekwondo _SPORT._


_*oh, and for the record.. I have no vested interest in LAJUST... just a ex-competitor/current-coach who tries to understand the game for the betterment of my students and anyone I can assist!!!!!!!!!!!!*_


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## miguksaram (Nov 22, 2010)

Just do away with the sensors and just get back to manual.  If fighters are scared that they might be cheated against due to biased judging then knock out their opponent.  If they can't do that then leave no doubt that they are the ones who should win, like the Taiwan player did against China.  It was obvious that the China's player was out matched.  

Good hard techniques are starting to deminish because everyone relies on these sensors.


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## d1jinx (Nov 22, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> ....then knock out their opponent. ....
> Good hard techniques are starting to deminish because everyone relies on these sensors.


 
AMEN brother


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## ATC (Nov 22, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> ...everyone relies on these sensors.


Picture her taking off the socks completely and then preceding to whoop the snot out of the other fighter. Now what would have been something to see.

Sensors! I don't need no stinking sensors! Ha ha ha...


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## boxking (Nov 23, 2010)

Hello all,

Thank to everyone who shared an opinion, especially d1jinx provided really useful information. I think that if WTF and ATU can show all the documented reports and evidences regarding the disqualification of Yang at the earliest moment, this case will be much simpler.   

Many questions raised according to the confusing statements.

Why the official frequently change explanations about the disqualification of Yang?

 Are the written WTF and Asian Game rules about the uses of sensors, the  technical record (they first claimed they found a weird signal on  Yang's sensors), the video during pre-inspection (later, they claimed  they do not have video record in the inspection area)  so difficult to  prepare and display?

Why the official did not present all the evidences at the earliest moment?  Is "protecting the fighter's personal privacy" a good reason while Yang was already accused of cheating? Why would have to wait until the end of Asian Game to make a conclusion? Wouldn't all the attention on the Asian Game now be gone at that time? 

Why would ATU deny several times when Taiwanese officials and Taiwan
Sport Affair Council proposed to confront with referee and inspectors?

Is it appropriate for an official to determine the athlete such serious judgment - disqualification, if the investigation is incompleted or if the official could not make a steady explanation about the decision?

If all the questions above could not be answered, is it appropriate for ATU, an internation organization, to release the news "_Shocking_ Act of Deception by Chinese Taipei" on its official website right after Yang's disqualification? (The article was removed from the ATU's website, but you can still find it on google.)

And recently, WTF claimed that ATU is a different organization that is not related to WTF.


This incident is growing to be a political issue due to some of the following reasons, if anyone is interested. (if not, you can skip the number part) However, I think this not a proper topic to discuss here, and I think it is nearly impossible for anyone to find steady evidences to prove Chinese government and Korean government were directly related to this incident that no one can make an "official" conclusion about this.

-------------------------
1) You can google  the relationship between China and Taiwan because it  is really complicated. (Well, all politics are complicated. :flushed: )   

2) Due to the relationship with China , Taiwanese can only use the name "Chinese Taipei" to attend the mostly all of the international competitions. Chinese government enforces on the holding countries to prohibit Taiwanese team attending the competitions if using the name "Taiwan". Taiwanese flag is not allowed to display when wining the medal or will be taken away from others (mostly from Chinese). On the World Cyber Games (2001), the Taiwanese player who won a gold medal in Age of Empires II displayed the Taiwanese flag, and Chinese player protested against him. The WCG (dominated by Korean) , on its official website, soon warned Taiwanese team about the action and FORGED an announcement that Taiwan submitted a full apology about the action and promised the action will not appear again......which Taiwan government DID NOT make the announcement and the promise.

3) Korean has a negative credit on its history of sport competitions. There are many examples, and here are two:
1997 East Asian Games, Men's basketball: Final, Taiwan vs. Korean
Korean extended the time in order to "fight" back because Taiwan was leading the game.
There were 10.9 seconds left before the game ended(left-hand corner). Korean team changed the clock to 1 min left but then immediately got caught by Taiwanese, so the time was changed back.   

See 0:44 to 0:50.  





Korean Soccer (In Japanese and English, not directly related to Taiwan)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E9Wrt-QHlw&feature=player_embedded

4)The election day in Taiwan is 11/27, therefore all the parties are trying to gain more vote. Burning Korean flag is one of the parties' "strategy". Shamed.

5) Chineses government insisted that they are not involved in this incident, and they hope Chinese Taipei can win more medal. However, the Chinese media kept release the news like Yang was caught cheated, the fact that Yang cheated is hard like an iron, and so on. The CCTV (Chinese official TV) even edited the competiton live video to show that Yang was caught cheating by wearing extra sensors and being asked to remove the sensors in the middle of the match. (play around with time)

Live video: took off sensors  -> match begin 
CCTV version: match begin  -> took off sensors (See! Yang got caught cheated)

If you understand the relationship between Chinese government and Chinese media, you will understand why Taiwanese take consideration that Chinese government is involved in this. Also, due to the limited access for Chinese to reach outside world information, it is not hard to imagine that most people in mainland China will just believe the news.  



------------------------------


I personally do not like that this incident is becoming a political  issue. It only blurred the main focus about Yang's case and fired up the  irrational anger (oppose for the sake of opposition) within some  Taiwanese. And those irrational anger can only hurt innocent people but  not support this incident and the sportmanship.

In my opinion, WTF should make the rules/regulations more clear and specific, and also to agree with the competition host official (Asian Game). These adjustments should be officially announce to all participant countries and players in a written format. Or another easy method, that I agree with what ATC memtioned, "Equipment will be provided by  the host of the event and placed on the competitors by an official of  the event at the time of the match in view of each competitor and coach." And Taiwanese team should reinforce its equipment support to aviod any chance of being disqualified.



--------------------------------------------
Below are my personal sentiments about Yang and this incident. No official information. 

The reason I support Yang is not only because of the nationality but also because I am Taiwanese, I had watched the training and competition video of Taiwanese team, heard the interview of Yang, read the news about Taiwanese taekwondo fighters, understanding the pride and honor for Taiwanese athletes of being able to stand on an international battlefield. To be honest, the system for training up professional athletes, especially the minor sports, in Taiwan is immature, and usually the athletes can only recieve limited resources and financial support from Taiwanese government. The older generation in Taiwan think being an athlete is not a good future career. Taiwanese athletes have to have perseverance and determination to be success and to convince their parents for supports, especially for people not come from a wealthy family.  


In the interview with Yang right after disqulification, " I am better comparing when I was in the Olympics, why would I cheat?" Yang said. I can feel the confidence in her. Regardless about the gold medal, for what I known, the Chinese fighter, Wu is an excellent taekwondo fighter. (not the Vietnamese who was out matched)  Yang viewed Wu as her main rival, and the Asian Game would be a great chance for Yang to see how much she improved until the disqulification happened. My heart broke when I saw Yang's tear coming out. Q_Q

And Yang was even accused as a cheater. 

How many people will think Yang is a cheater and Taiwan cheated when they see the first coming out news?

And how many of them will miss the follow up report?


These days, day and night, I was on the internet researching and trying to find out what happened. Also, I think maybe I can help Yang when I provide the live video and information from Taiwanese point of view.

Btw, my English writting skill really improves these days. 
And I might not be able to reply for the next few days, Happy thanksgiving!! 

----------------------------------------


Really really thank you all for spending time reading the news, watching the video, making comments about this incident.

Last, does anyone know the sport,sepak takraw?
Maybe it is not directly related to martial arts, but I think it is a really cool sport to watch and with many kicking actions. 

Asian Game 2010, Final, Thailand vs Malaysia












http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?u=20126


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## texkwondo (Nov 23, 2010)

What was she even trying to achieve by having sensors on her heels?  Unless she was planning on throwing axe kick to someones body while they were bent over backwards at a 90 degree angle.


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## miguksaram (Nov 23, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> What was she even trying to achieve by having sensors on her heels? Unless she was planning on throwing axe kick to someones body while they were bent over backwards at a 90 degree angle.


 
Seemed like she was able to execute that kick without the body being bent over.  Did you see the fight?


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## texkwondo (Nov 23, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Seemed like she was able to execute that kick without the body being bent over.  Did you see the fight?



I don't think you understand what I am asking.  The sensor was placed on the back of the heel.  What kick would she have thrown that would require a sensor placed there?  In what circumstance would you hit someones body with the back of your heel?


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## miguksaram (Nov 23, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I don't think you understand what I am asking. The sensor was placed on the back of the heel. What kick would she have thrown that would require a sensor placed there? In what circumstance would you hit someones body with the back of your heel?


 
Spinning heal kick, hook kick, side kick, axe kick, push kick.


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## texkwondo (Nov 23, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Spinning heal kick, hook kick, side kick, axe kick, push kick.



BACK of the heel.  Not BOTTOM of the heel.  Did you even watch the video?  Are you honestly saying she was going to go out there and start throwing spinning hook kicks to the body?


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## miguksaram (Nov 23, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> BACK of the heel. Not BOTTOM of the heel. Did you even watch the video? Are you honestly saying she was going to go out there and start throwing spinning hook kicks to the body?


 
Why would anyone aim a hook kick to the body?  I was thinking head myself, same with a spinning heel kick.  Not sure how you were taught but I was taught to use back of the heel, axe kick too, however for sparring purposes I can see were you would not use the back of the heel as you are trying to score points not dislocate the shoulder.

Yes, I did watch the match.  Pretty one sided if you ask me.


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## ATC (Nov 23, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Why would anyone aim a hook kick to the body? I was thinking head myself, same with a spinning heel kick. Not sure how you were taught but I was taught to use back of the heel, axe kick too, however for sparring purposes I can see were you would not use the back of the heel as you are trying to score points not dislocate the shoulder.
> 
> Yes, I did watch the match. Pretty one sided if you ask me.


But those kicks to the head would not reqire the sensor at all as head kicks are scored by the corner judges not the EPP system.

There really is no reason to have a sensor on the back of the heal. All the other kicks like push kick and side kick would score with the sensor that is already on the  bottom of the heal when thrown to the body.


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## d1jinx (Nov 23, 2010)

just a guess here, but one thing about the back of the heal.... gear always shifts and adjusts, very good chance the back of the heal, becomes the bottom of the heal during the course of the fight, which _would/could_ score from cut kicks, side kicks and push kicks.  

Not saying that was the case here... Yang was clearly beating the opponents she fought.

just commenting on the gear.  I know for a fact, when I through an axe kick to the shoulder or head, as it slides down after making contact ( or missing), the booties slide off over the heal, causing the back of the heal area to now be the bottom of the heal.  

I'm not making any judgement either way on this case as to intention or not...

As for my earlier comment about "making gear", that was an off-centered attempt at a joke and not ment specifically toward anyone or anyplace.... thought it was funny then, but in retrospect... sorry to have said it.  My apologies. :asian:


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## ATC (Nov 23, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> just a guess here, but one thing about the back of the heal.... gear always shifts and adjusts, very good chance the back of the heal, becomes the bottom of the heal during the course of the fight, which _would/could_ score from cut kicks, side kicks and push kicks...


But there are already sensors on the bottom of the heel for those kicks. That is how the back kick, side kick, and push kick scores.

Plus she took the sensors off once she was told to change into those socks.

Lots of good aguements, will be interesting to see the outcome of the process.


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## ATC (Nov 23, 2010)

For those that have not seen or used the socks here are a couple of pics. Note the gray instep area, that is the instep sensor, the entire area. Now note the bottom heel gray area, that entire area is also sensored. Also note that the boy in the pic is using the old type socks with the black velcro on the back of the heel. These pic were taken from LaJust's website.









The pearl white back of the heal part of the sock use to be velcro where you could attach a sensor if needed. Actually the parts that are sensored use to all be velcro and you would attach the sensors to your liking. They have since changed this and sewed the sensors on to the sock and removed the back heel sensor altogeather. They also added padding under the instep sensor as there were issue with players that used their own taping and padding. The socks use to rip.


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## d1jinx (Nov 23, 2010)

guess I just must be used to the bottom of the heal being worn looking more like non-slip material than scoring material.... cause I swear it was/is not the same as on the top... my bad.


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## d1jinx (Nov 23, 2010)

WHERE"S *LAJUST* TO CHIME IN????? you were here, feel free to comment...

although I can see where it is wise not to get involved due to the nature of the beast...


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## texkwondo (Nov 23, 2010)

Shouldn't she have been getting penalties anyway for all the times she raised her knee to block kicks?


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## texkwondo (Nov 24, 2010)

After looking at everything, it looks like the judges were completely wrong.  She did not cut sensors and attach them to the back of the heel herself as claimed, she was using an older model that had back of heel sensors.  According to the WTF website, old and current model socks are approved until May 17, 2012.  Equipment was approved by the WTF, it was approved before the fight, and when it was called into question just before the match, the extra sensors were removed anyway.  

Yang Jin-suk, WTF secretary general claimed in a press conference that LaJust never manufactured a sock with back of heel sensors.  At a separate press conference, a representative of LaJust demonstrated the older model, and an instruction manual with graphical illustrations of a heel sensor.  How the hell does the WTF leadership not know the specifications of the equipment their organization is approving?


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## ATC (Nov 24, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> After looking at everything, it looks like the judges were completely wrong.  She did not cut sensors and attach them to the back of the heel herself as claimed, she was using an older model that had back of heel sensors.  According to the WTF website, old and current model socks are approved until May 17, 2012.  Equipment was approved by the WTF, it was approved before the fight, and when it was called into question just before the match, the extra sensors were removed anyway.
> 
> Yang Jin-suk, WTF secretary general claimed in a press conference that LaJust never manufactured a sock with back of heel sensors.  At a separate press conference, a representative of LaJust demonstrated the older model, and an instruction manual with graphical illustrations of a heel sensor.  How the hell does the WTF leadership not know the specifications of the equipment their organization is approving?


I think all that was stated above a few times already.


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## mango.man (Dec 5, 2010)

So it looks like Taiwan has taken revenge on the WTF website - http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/main/main_eng.html

hahahaha


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## ATC (Dec 5, 2010)

mango.man said:


> So it looks like Taiwan has taken revenge on the WTF website - http://www.wtf.org/wtf_eng/main/main_eng.html
> 
> hahahaha


Ha ha ha....that is so funny. Web security FAIL!!!!


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## LaJust (Dec 6, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> WHERE"S *LAJUST* TO CHIME IN????? you were here, feel free to comment...
> 
> although I can see where it is wise not to get involved due to the nature of the beast...


True, I can't comment on this issue as we only represent LaJust Sports USA and this event was outside that so falls to LaJust Korea (the global entity) who were present at the event. I personally don't see this as an equipment issue (I believe the same issue could potentially have occurred with another vendor's equipment) but as a political and procedural issue between the organizations involved.

Questions on the use of our US equipment at USAT events I can comment on  In the US we only sell the newer sewn in sensors and we did a free exchange on any socks that were defective (due to bad zippers) or had the old style velcro. There is no time limitation on that exchange.


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## bluewaveschool (Dec 6, 2010)

ATC said:


> Ha ha ha....that is so funny. Web security FAIL!!!!



looks normal to me...


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## ATC (Dec 7, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> looks normal to me...


Has been fixed since. They got hacked and it showed a pic of a little boy giving the finger. The had a political statement about the situation.


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