# Submissions on the street



## J-kid (Aug 28, 2003)

Would anyone use submissions on the street besides chokes.

I would have to think about it even though it would be easy for me to break a arm i wouldnt usally want to unless i have no choice.  What about you guys....


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## OULobo (Aug 28, 2003)

Broken arms and shattered knees are better than morgue trips. I think you could defend yourself in court better if you can say that you broke his arm to subdue him instead of killing him, plus I don't think anyone will continue to come after you if you were to break something. 

Chokes are risky. If you do them well you can make your attacker sleep, but too much will kill them and its almost imposible to tell where the line is, especially if you are in the heat of the moment.


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## Aegis (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Chokes are risky. If you do them well you can make your attacker sleep, but too much will kill them and its almost imposible to tell where the line is, especially if you are in the heat of the moment. *



Unless you actually crush the windpipe, chokes aren't that lethal. Once the opponent is "asleep", you still need to hold the choke on for quite a while before the opponent suffers permanent damage.

However, I would never use a choke on the street. My reasoning: a choke takes time to apply to the point where you can actually let go again. If there's more than one attacker, you've got yourself to the point where you either let go to defend against the second attacker or hold on and get hit.

With an armlock, wrist lock, neck lock, etc, you have to option of an instant break and release which should leave most opponents incapacitated, and leaves you free to deal with a second attack. Much quicker and more instantly effective than a choke.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 28, 2003)

I would, depending on the circumstances.


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## Cruentus (Aug 28, 2003)

Depends...

For most people, Submissions aren't necissary. If they fight, it is because they can't run & their life is in danger, so they should break, maim, or kill if they have to if it means saving their own life.

Cops, Bouncers, larger older people against younger smaller assailants, etc....submissions then become useful.

:asian:


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## tmanifold (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *Unless you actually crush the windpipe, chokes aren't that lethal. Once the opponent is "asleep", you still need to hold the choke on for quite a while before the opponent suffers permanent damage.
> 
> However, I would never use a choke on the street. My reasoning: a choke takes time to apply to the point where you can actually let go again. If there's more than one attacker, you've got yourself to the point where you either let go to defend against the second attacker or hold on and get hit.
> ...



I *do* attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly. 

My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.

Tony


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## Aegis (Aug 28, 2003)

I never said I was worried about using lethal techniques. My argument was that a choke isn't damaging enough unless you hold it on for some time, during which you are exposed. The techniques I listed as being quicker included a set of instantly lethal techniques (neck locks) which could be used if you wanted to kill your assailent (though I have no idea when that would ever come up). IMO, the best option would be to break a major joint, like their leading arm, and leave them on the floor when you walk away.


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## Eggman (Aug 28, 2003)

depending on where you live, break a bone and you will go to jail even if it is in self defense.  I have used many chokes in self defense situations but only when the opportunity arose.  Steve labounty said it best in all manipulations and chokes are movements of opportunity not something to plan.  The sleeper can work well and you get the added bonus of having a human shield.


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## MJS (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *I do attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly.
> 
> My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.
> ...



Attacking the windpipe can be very dangerous!  The reason they are flapping is due to the fact that you are causing them some pain in addition to the choke.  If you do this on the street its one thing, even though you still might have to answer why you used that much force.  If you are doing this in training, it only tells me that you dont care about your training partners.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *I never said I was worried about using lethal techniques. My argument was that a choke isn't damaging enough unless you hold it on for some time, during which you are exposed. The techniques I listed as being quicker included a set of instantly lethal techniques (neck locks) which could be used if you wanted to kill your assailent (though I have no idea when that would ever come up). IMO, the best option would be to break a major joint, like their leading arm, and leave them on the floor when you walk away. *



If the choke is properly applied, its shouldnt take much time for them to go out.

Mike


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## MJS (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> [
> My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.
> 
> Tony [/B]



Every situation is different.  Some may not require you to use lethal force.  We live in a very sue happy world.  Is this something that you really want to risk?  

Looking at your profile it says that you are in the Navy.  While the lethal tech. might be fine if you are in Iraq, the situations that you come across in the states are going to be much different.

Mike


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

it depends, there are many submissions that will quickly change your attackers mind about wanting to fight with you anymore.  also you dont want to choke out your drunk buddy that just wont leave you alone, so if you can submit, and control him without injuring him you will be better off.


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

it depends, there are many submissions that will quickly change your attackers mind about wanting to fight with you anymore.  also you dont want to choke out your drunk buddy that just wont leave you alone, so if you can submit, and control him without injuring him you will be better off.


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## pesilat (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by J-kid _
> *Would anyone use submissions on the street besides chokes.
> 
> I would have to think about it even though it would be easy for me to break a arm i wouldnt usally want to unless i have no choice.  What about you guys.... *



Depends on circumstances.

However, something to consider that one of my instructors pointed out:

Some people, you break an elbow and they figure, "Heck, it's already broken and the pain is adding fuel to my fire, so why stop now?" (granted, this will usually only happen with people who're on something - but you never know)

But lock that same elbow and they might do anything they can (including anything you ask) to prevent it from being broken.

Now, knees and ankles are critter of a different color, though. You take them out and you affect their mobility. Then you can pat them down for firearms or knives (maybe use locks/breaks to enable this) and walk away. They won't be able to chase you and if they don't have any firearms or blades they won't be much of a threat to you once you get outside their reach (any other projectiles they may get hold of won't be likely to inflict serious damage).

But, again, it's all situational. When restraining my step-son, for instance, I always avoided injuring him - and he was a full grown man when I was restraining him. I just used locks and pins and, once, a disarm to restrain him until he calmed down (he occasionally had some schizophrenic and paranoid episodes).

When I was attacked by a guy in a convenience store parking lot, though, I dislocated his elbow, kicked him in the chest, and drove away without giving it a second thought (until I was about halfway home and realized that he was probably 16 or 17 and I was, at the time, 20 - fortunately, the cops never showed up at my doorstep).

Mike


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## chaosomega (Oct 29, 2003)

If my attacker doesn't have any friends that will stomp my head in when I try a sub, of course! I'd prefer a choke, tho.


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## Kempojujutsu (Oct 29, 2003)

A bouncer at a college bar applied a choke, and the guy later died from it. All I know the bar got shut down for serving underage drinkers and the bouncer got arrested. Not sure how it turn out. This happen last year.
Bob


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## Black Bear (Jan 23, 2004)

All tactics involve risks to the person whose aggress you're managing. Properly applied chokes (and I mean a bilateral carotid strangle) aren't that risky unless there's a pre-existing medical condition. 

Subs in the street can be tricky. It's not that you can't do them fast--you can and you certainly would in the street--but you do get tied up and stuff. So multiple opponents is probably the most germane consideration. 

Sometimes your objective is best served by a "submission" or "control". Breaking a major joint or choking into unconsciousness are among the most reliable ways of ending an altercation.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *I do attack the windpipe for chokes and let me tell you it takes less then 5 seconds for them to be flapping like a fish. If I really throw it on (ie street situation) they are out of the equation very quickly.
> 
> My view is that if you are worried about whether or not you should apply lethal techniques there is no need for you to be fighting.
> ...


 Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
Sean


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## MJS (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
> Sean *



Good point and again it all goes back to the situation that you're facing at the time.  IMO, use as much force as whats being used against you and make sure that you can back up everything that you did.

Mike


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 24, 2004)

ok its one on one you put him in a arm, wrist, leg (or choice) lock
he crys or fogiveness and swears he will nwever do it again. Tears flow and he begs for forgiveness.
Do you let him go??
will he get up and attack once there is no pressure on the once locked area?
will he now pull a knife ?


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 24, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *ok its one on one you put him in a arm, wrist, leg (or choice) lock
> he crys or fogiveness and swears he will nwever do it again. Tears flow and he begs for forgiveness.
> Do you let him go??
> ...


 If your smart you will finish what you started, and you started to eliminate the threat until you reach cover. This might involve breaking his arm or knocking him out... and cover. Remember that Clint Eastwood movies "Heartbreak Ridge"? "Look at me, I said look at me!" ha ha I loved that movie.
Sean


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *Unless you actually crush the windpipe, chokes aren't that lethal. Once the opponent is "asleep", you still need to hold the choke on for quite a while before the opponent suffers permanent damage.
> 
> However, I would never use a choke on the street. My reasoning: a choke takes time to apply to the point where you can actually let go again. If there's more than one attacker, you've got yourself to the point where you either let go to defend against the second attacker or hold on and get hit.
> ...



It really depends on the position that you are in a fight. On the ground, I'd choke to put him in "panic mode" and open up a better position for me.

If I were fortunate enough to get a standing rear choke, I can easily drop him to his knees by kicking the back of his knees.

It just depends on the position and just like any real fight "submissions" used in conjuction with the rest of your arsenal will be used.

:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
> Sean *



Thats right. Thats why if I need to use a knife I'm going to attept to cut and not stab. My focus is to escape not kill.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2004)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *ok its one on one you put him in a arm, wrist, leg (or choice) lock
> he crys or fogiveness and swears he will nwever do it again. Tears flow and he begs for forgiveness.
> Do you let him go??
> ...



Like the post following yours, you need to finish in some way. It does not have to be fatal or even bonebreaking. A good wristlock will put you in a position to pound him real good.  

Even on the mat, along with the armlock I use the wristlock because it so much more effective. 

With a wristlock you can put your opponent in just about any position that you want him.

:asian:


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## kenpo12 (Jan 27, 2004)

You use what the situation calls for and sometimes you don't really have a choice of what technique you use.  If you're not in a LEO capacity and you're not in some dumb drunk bar brawl you're probably fighting because you have to fight.  In which case you use whatever will keep you and yours as safe as possible and if it's a choke, armbar or whatever you use it and use it as if it's the last technique you'll ever do.


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## loki09789 (Jan 27, 2004)

I don't train submissions so I don't think that a submission would be my tendency.  I do practice some grappling entries and take downs that lead to breaking techniques and such but I think it really comes down to the fact that you will fight like you have trained as well as what is going to work in the moment.

I have surprised myself and training partners when something 'happened' during free form/sparring sessions.  I imagine that at some point in a real fight it is possible for the same thing to happen as well.

Paul Martin


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## hardheadjarhead (Feb 1, 2004)

If the situation warranted using a choke or a lock, I'd use those.  If I saw a folding knife in his waist band prior to the altercation, that might change things a bit.  There might be other factors...like the number of friends he has on hand...that might change my decision to use a submission hold.

Submissions are a good part of any arsenal.  One acquires an "arsenal" so that he has a variety of weapons to suit the circumstances.


Regards,


Steve


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## James Kovacich (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *If the situation warranted using a choke or a lock, I'd use those.  If I saw a folding knife in his waist band prior to the altercation, that might change things a bit.  There might be other factors...like the number of friends he has on hand...that might change my decision to use a submission hold.
> 
> Submissions are a good part of any arsenal.  One acquires an "arsenal" so that he has a variety of weapons to suit the circumstances.
> ...


I wouldn't want to have to fight against someone with a knife but folding knives are great for self defense too as long as you do practical knife training such as slashing the attackers arms and not stabbing.


:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Feb 2, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *There might be other factors...like the number of friends he has on hand...that might change my decision to use a submission hold.*



Sometimes a hold or even choke hold can work against multiple attackers using the person being choked as a shield.

7sm


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## Black Bear (Feb 2, 2004)

Depends. I usually wouldn't. When you apply a sub you're adding the other person's inertia to your own, and if they can go around the guy to you (there's more than 3 ppl, for instance) I might crank the choke quick, but I'd be letting go real fast.


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## KanoLives (Feb 3, 2004)

Don't get me wrong I like submissions.......however when in a fight I don't think you're lookin to tap the person out. Yea sure you could use it to control the person but I'd be lookin for something next. I think you need to end the altercation as quick as possible. So I agree with what was already said. If you're gonna go with a submission do it until something POPS or breaks. This way you leave little to chance......yea yea there's always the possibility of him comin at ya stronger......but there's also a chance I could win the lottery too.


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## Black Bear (Feb 3, 2004)

That's right. If you dislocate a guy's shoulder or elbow with a nice jerk, he won't usually turn around and start hitting with you with his other hand.


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## loki09789 (Feb 3, 2004)

Submission holds and locks were described to me once as breaks with out the velocity.

Paul Martin


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## Black Bear (Feb 3, 2004)

That's exactly correct, Mr. Prime Minister.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

Not neccesarily, not all submissions can result in breaks, even with full velocity. I'm trying to say that there are submissions that are not breaks. Some wrist submissions or locks are not breaks.
It just depends on the break/submission.

7sm


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## Black Bear (Feb 4, 2004)

I dunno, I believe that a wristlock that's nicely JERKED will break the joint. Unless, that is, Steven Seagal movies have lied to me.  Say you do nikyo (aka inner wrist lock, aka chicken wing) and instead of forcing the guy to the ground, you just throttle it. Something should break. 

The one thing that I would say doesn't break a joint or bone is a choke, or perhaps a sub that attacks tendons, like a grapevine. 

Hey, did you notice people repeating what others already said on this same thread?


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## 7starmantis (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Black Bear _
> *I dunno, I believe that a wristlock that's nicely JERKED will break the joint. Unless, that is, Steven Seagal movies have lied to me.  Say you do nikyo (aka inner wrist lock, aka chicken wing) and instead of forcing the guy to the ground, you just throttle it. Something should break.
> 
> The one thing that I would say doesn't break a joint or bone is a choke, or perhaps a sub that attacks tendons, like a grapevine.
> *



Well, it theory your right, but some wrist locks are done in a way that the two bones of the wrist (Ulna & Radius) are set against each other. In most scenarios, to break one or both of those bones from a completely dorsal point is almost impossible. Thats why alot of wrist locks can lead to other things, but a break is most likely not going to happen. Don't get me wrong, there are wrist locks that are relativly easy to increase into a break, but some are not.

7sm


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## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2004)

Break might not be the ultimate outcome in every case, but with velocity in the 'locking motion' I will take limb/joint disfunction if the technique rips up some muscle and tendons so he can't use that part to hold a weapon/hit/kick again.

Black Bear

I don't want to be the Prime Minister, I want to be a Princess
(a cheap paraphrasing of the little red head girl in Kindergarten Cop... PLEASE DON"T CALL ME PRINCESS!)


Paul M (Not the PM of Canada, though I play him on tv)


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## loki09789 (Feb 5, 2004)

Black Bear

Back on the job description thing,

I understand better now, The cousellors in my state work for the school, where the people who have your job work for the BOCES program and oversee many school districts.

Just a boring English Teacher dissecting the nuances of language use - again!
Gotcha

Paul Martin


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## Black Bear (Feb 5, 2004)

Princess Paul? So We could call you, say, PP for short?


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## loki09789 (Feb 5, 2004)

Oh, this is really mature for college edumacated (or is it educated/medicated?) sophisticates!

Paul M


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## Black Bear (Feb 5, 2004)

The angry laser monkey is edumacated, but no one has ever accused him of being "mature". :lol:


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## loki09789 (Feb 5, 2004)

Lose the sheep skins and up the dosage!


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## Black Bear (Feb 5, 2004)

Whatmeans "BOCES"? And do you find the assessments done by your people to be useful?


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## loki09789 (Feb 5, 2004)

BOCES.... I don't remember what the acronym stands for (tells you how often I utilize them), they basically provide the home schooling support/summer school instruction, some assessment work, and other county wide support...

Assessment...it all depends on the cases.  One that I am really happy with is a student that was having a heck of a time with reading and comprehension.  It got to the point that she, her parents and some teachers were thinking that she might have a diagnosable problem.  

The counsellors were dragging on about getting her assessed because they were sure she was just not working hard.

I had her read some social study text and then explain it to me and she really 'couldn't', so I sort of pushed for the testing because:  if it was truly a diagnosable problem, she would get the help/support she needed to cope and work within her problem.  If it wasn't a problem, we eliminate an excuse not to do well - but in a positive way.  

She was assessed to have a low reading comprehension ability, but not poor enough to be diagnosed.  Now she as an 80 %, will graduate with merits and is getting a few poems published through an internet publisher - as well as attending a seminar, publishing release party in Florida...

Sorry, I tend to gush about students.  In this case the assessment helped.  

Paul M


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## Black Bear (Feb 5, 2004)

Well that is good. A lot of my colleagues in this field really only know how to make a diagnosis, so someone can get funding. I question how worthwhile it is to have these practitioners consuming the earth's oxygen. I'm fortunate to be in a firm where they're teaching me to make really good, useful recommendations to the parents and teachers.


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## moving target (Feb 10, 2004)

well a lot of locks won't nessisaraly break something, even an armbar that targets a joint like the elbow can simply hyperextend the joint. Wether or not you choke cross the wind pipe a quick choke (one that ends in a couple seconds) is braught about by a lack of oxogen to the brain. It still takes 2 or 3 seconds so it may not be an optimal choice..  I would prefer some sort of standing jointlock and I would want to pop it on to cause as much dammage as fast as posable whatever that dammage may be.

Unless I know the person..  If I know them I would choke them out if posable.


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## loki09789 (Feb 11, 2004)

"Wether or not you choke cross the wind pipe a quick choke (one that ends in a couple seconds) is braught about by a lack of oxogen to the brain."

True.  But, deliver that choking motion with the same speed and power of a strike and you could end up with a crushed throat/joint damage of the neck.  Changing a steadily increasing amount of force for the purpose of pressuring a joint/airway into a ballistic strike changes the affect of the technique.

A heel hand strike is mechanically the same as a shove, the deliver of force is what changes.

Paul M.


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## moving target (Feb 11, 2004)

Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind).


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## Black Bear (Feb 11, 2004)

A choke that cuts off the carotid blood supply would usually not be the same sort of choke that would crush the trachea. Not just the speed thing, but the carotid choke  means you'd be putting your long bones (e.g. radius and humerus) against the carotids, so they'd pretty much triangle at the trachea as opposed to lying flat against it, squashing it. 

In fact, some folks advocate using the term "strangle" to refer strictly to vascular attacks, and "choke" to refer to attacks on the trachea. But most MAists would roll their eyes and say that's silly. :shrug: 

And it takes more than 2-3 seconds to choke a guy into unconsciousness. IIRC there's a vascular dealy called the Circle of Willis that provides an extra couple seconds' worth of blood to the brain in the event of bilateral carotid occlusion.


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## loki09789 (Feb 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by moving target _
> *Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind). *



I like the point here about appropriateness.  That sort of validates training for breaking/limb destruction and submission as well.  If the person 'on the street' is a friend or anyone not necessarily posing a full on deadly threat, but might even be posing a threat to themselves, submissions might be the more reasonable option.  

My unit was in Ft. Polk, La, before we went to Bosnia and one of our guys used submission/restraint techniques to keep a fellow soldier (drunk) from escalating a brewing fight between a hand ful of soldiers, including himself and a MOB of locals.  Submission/restraint was definitely the better option in this case.

Paul M.


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## moving target (Feb 13, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> A choke that cuts off the carotid blood supply would usually not be the same sort of choke that would crush the trachea. Not just the speed thing, but the carotid choke  means you'd be putting your long bones (e.g. radius and humerus) against the carotids, so they'd pretty much triangle at the trachea as opposed to lying flat against it, squashing it.
> 
> In fact, some folks advocate using the term "strangle" to refer strictly to vascular attacks, and "choke" to refer to attacks on the trachea. But most MAists would roll their eyes and say that's silly. :shrug:
> 
> And it takes more than 2-3 seconds to choke a guy into unconsciousness. IIRC there's a vascular dealy called the Circle of Willis that provides an extra couple seconds' worth of blood to the brain in the event of bilateral carotid occlusion.


well collapsing the trachea only cuts off a person's air, you can go for a wial with no air, so a choke that knocks someone out is going to be affecting blood flow to the brain. The carotids are right next to the trachea at the clavicle, granted they branch out from there but it's not hard to compress them with a choke that would come across the trachea. I know it's posable because I have been knocked out that way .

As to the choke/strangle thing, I genneraly just use the word choke. For one it's easier, For another Not all attacks to the throught can easily be sepperated into one or the other (some do both or can do either depending on how you apply preasure)

I just said 2-3 seconds as a min, I thought that was the estimated time your brain stais concious after decapitation. But I guess I was wrong. How fast can you strangle someone out?


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## Black Bear (Feb 13, 2004)

I can't argue with your personal experience. In general it is found that a choke that bars the forearm against the trachea will cause pain and thrashing to the point shwere the trachea is really damaged, whereas a carotid choke just makes the guy go faint and pass out. You feel the guy go limp, not flail around. But hey, biological entities are all different.


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## moving target (Feb 14, 2004)

I would agree


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## KanoLives (Feb 14, 2004)

Just to add another perspective.
A good friend that I train with were working the rear naked choke. So I told him to really sinch it in just to see how long I had before I went out. I tapped at about 5 seconds cuz I knew I was goin' out. He let go....I took a step, then took a knee. Vision went fuzzy and got really dizzy.
Just thought I'd share my experiance with being choked out.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 26, 2004)

In bouncing, I used a atanding version of the sleeve wheel choke a lot. Pin the guy against the nearest wall or table, loop one arm around the back of  the nck to grab the sleeve of the other arm, then punch past the target with the 2nd arm...makes a great noose out of you clothing to gack him with, but wrecks shirts. Induces not only a choke, but great panic...being in it makes your head feel like it's going to pop off like a bean. Got tired of trying it in t-shirts on summer nights, so started wearing a tennis sweatband for the sleeve contact. Also brings you in close enough to jam a lot of his striking efforts while he flails around before fading to black.


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## 8253 (Mar 26, 2004)

No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life.  Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away.  Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move.  Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up.  Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket.  Then its over.


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## loki09789 (Mar 26, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life.  Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away.  Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move.  Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up.  Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket.  Then its over.



There are a range of 'street' situations that we can prepare for though.  What if the situation requires less lethal techniques like an argument turned ugly between relatives or a child (near adult - teen agish) having a fit.  Lethal hit and run techniques wouldn't be the best choice.  Submission/restraint holds would probably be more appropriate here.  These are just as real, sometimes more likely even, as the lethal force level of attack that most 'street' situations that we envision.  Being versed in a range of responses seems like a good idea.  I wouldn't devote too much time to submission/restraint training, but having a familiarization/basic ability in it is helpful.


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

moving target said:
			
		

> well collapsing the trachea only cuts off a person's air, you can go for a wial with no air, so a choke that knocks someone out is going to be affecting blood flow to the brain. The carotids are right next to the trachea at the clavicle, granted they branch out from there but it's not hard to compress them with a choke that would come across the trachea. I know it's posable because I have been knocked out that way .
> 
> As to the choke/strangle thing, I genneraly just use the word choke. For one it's easier, For another Not all attacks to the throught can easily be sepperated into one or the other (some do both or can do either depending on how you apply preasure)
> 
> I just said 2-3 seconds as a min, I thought that was the estimated time your brain stais concious after decapitation. But I guess I was wrong. How fast can you strangle someone out?



Anytime you attack the trechea you do run a serious risk of causing some permanent injury or even death.  Now, you need to ask yourself if its worth killing someone.  Did the attack warrant something like that?  Even during practice, you should never take the chance and do a choke against the treachea.  Cutting off the blood flow is a much better way of applying the choke.  

Mike


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

moving target said:
			
		

> Well my point was that you can choke someone out anyway you like, as long as that choke is cutting off the blood to the brain. So you don't have to go across their throught if you don't want to (like if the person is your freind).



As Black Bear already said, these are 2 very different chokes.  If you dont know the difference, then I highly suggest that you get some proper training, otherwise you run the risk of causing some serious harm to someone.

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 26, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life. Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away. Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move. Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up. Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket. Then its over.


If you put the guy to sleep, he can't continue.

Blue Seal = Choke the guy till he turns blue, lay him face down on the pavement, pick up each wrist, one side at a time, and stamp against the elbow joint.  When he awakens, he'll be trying to do a push up on 2 broken arms...flopping around like a seal.  It's all about how nasty you're willing to be, and if you feel like doing time. Or, knowing in advance, how to sell that kind of abuse in court.


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## MJS (Mar 26, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> No submissions, if you must fight on the streets it should be for defending your or someone elses life.  Submissions arent really a street application unless you have a way to detain them for a while untill you can get away.  Unfortunatly that would be hard to do while you have to hold a person in a submission move.  Anyone can say ouch that hurts i give up.  Then when they get up you dont see thier other hand that gets the gun or knife out of their pocket.  Then its over.



But, every situation that you come across isnt going to warrant "taking the guy out."  You need to look at the attack presented to you, and then determine the correct response.  If its just some bum on the street asking for money, do you need to break the guys neck?  Now, if you're faced with someone with a knife, then yeah, I could see breaking the guys arm.  

The bottom line is- You need to use as much force as whats being against you.  If you follow that rule, then you shouldnt have any worries.

Mike


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## 8253 (Mar 26, 2004)

I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios.  However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way.  On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move.  you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well.  anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 27, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios. However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way. On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move. you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well. anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.


If your conceptualization of submission is going side-mount on someone with a figure-4 arm bar, you're right. Not practical; you'll eventually have tolet go. If you practice entangling the upper extremities a lot (because it takes a lot more practice to do well then ballistic MA), you can develop the feel of snagging a body part (wrist, hand, etc.) and torquing it in an anatomically unfriendly direction. These are usually used in aikijujustu-related arts as take-downs, but the net effect is really only a function of speed and intent.  A slow inward wristlock is a take-down (if directed towards the floor) or submission position. A fast one -- travelling at a speed that moves the soft-tissues of the joint away from the opponents body at a spped faster than the body can keep up with the joint tension -- is a dislocation, or more mildly, a sprain/strain injury. Usable in defense as deterrent, even after release (sprain the crap outta the poor guys wrist, and you'll sap some of the fighting spirit from him without too extreme of permanent damage).

IMHO, however, not to be tried by beginning students, or even intermediate for that matter. Almost everyone I know in MA has some entanglement training; only a few have put in the quality time it takes to become combatively adept at catching and twisting in the heat of swingin'. (I've caught some, and then I've caught some on the bean _trying_ to catch some...it's both easier _and_ harder than it looks)

Namaste!

Dr. Dave


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## 8253 (Mar 27, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> If your conceptualization of submission is going side-mount on someone with a figure-4 arm bar, you're right. Not practical; you'll eventually have tolet go. If you practice entangling the upper extremities a lot (because it takes a lot more practice to do well then ballistic MA), you can develop the feel of snagging a body part (wrist, hand, etc.) and torquing it in an anatomically unfriendly direction. These are usually used in aikijujustu-related arts as take-downs, but the net effect is really only a function of speed and intent.  A slow inward wristlock is a take-down (if directed towards the floor) or submission position. A fast one -- travelling at a speed that moves the soft-tissues of the joint away from the opponents body at a spped faster than the body can keep up with the joint tension -- is a dislocation, or more mildly, a sprain/strain injury. Usable in defense as deterrent, even after release (sprain the crap outta the poor guys wrist, and you'll sap some of the fighting spirit from him without too extreme of permanent damage).
> 
> IMHO, however, not to be tried by beginning students, or even intermediate for that matter. Almost everyone I know in MA has some entanglement training; only a few have put in the quality time it takes to become combatively adept at catching and twisting in the heat of swingin'. (I've caught some, and then I've caught some on the bean _trying_ to catch some...it's both easier _and_ harder than it looks)
> 
> ...



I cannot disagree with any of this, maybe it's just our training philosophy of not fighting unless it is absolutely necessary.  But if it is necessary making sure the aggressor dosent make the same mistake twice.  Come to think of it we arent tought to use submission moves.  There are a few of them that we have learned but basically inaplicable unless you are ambushing someone and ambushing is definatly not allowed in our studies.


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## MJS (Mar 27, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> I wasnt saying that "deadly force" is the correct response for all scenarios.  However if someone was just asking me something or asking for money, not trying to rob me or hurt me, i wouldnt do anything to the person i would probably try to help them in some way.  On the other hand as far as a fight goes, if someone tries to hit you chances are they wont stop long enough for you to lock in a submission move.  you are usually to interested about dodging and blocking incoming punches then striking. besides if they punch you and you break their arm. oh well.  anyways i prefer to try to talk my way out of a fight.



In the Filipino arts, locking and limb destructions are 2 of the many different things that are focused on.  Intercepting that strike and then applying a lock, which you could upgrade to a break  is something, with the proper training, is not hard to achieve.

Mike


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## Gaidheal (Apr 13, 2004)

Every lock/hold I know is also a potential break. The most 'friendly' control move I think I have is the standard "Pull his forearm/hand/wrist into my waist rotating it palm up as I do so and at the same time turn so as to be 'side by side' dropping into what we call 'walking stance' in TKD using my other hand/forearm in a 'blade' type configuration on his upper arm to now control his position and allow me to walk him around, force him lower, higher, etc." This can be made into a break at any time pretty much, just put some impulse into a sudden "you're going lower than that" motion, should break or at least hyper-extend an elbow or dislocate his shoulder, depending on precisely how you do so and what his reaction is. 

As for when/if I'd use them.. I've done "Customer Safety Representative" (aka 'bouncer') work before now. Police in the UK take a really dim view of customers getting beaten up/killed by staff in entertainment locations. So do other customers, including, very possibly, his friends right there at the time. Now granted we work in teams so I should have at least one colleague there anyway and as a team we COULD disable up to even 10 people in sequence with just two doorstaff because of the advantages we'd typically have (training, no drug influences, full prior knowledge of the layout of furniture, location of exits, etc). But that is MAKING a problem not solving it. So yeah, there is an application for submission/control techniques right there and yes, they can be made "nasty" with a simple change of intent even in response to a new threat/issue.

John


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## clapping_tiger (Apr 14, 2004)

Nice thread, I just have a few point I would like to make on this subject. First off I personally wouldn't do submissions in a street situation for one main reason. They are not my strongest asset. That is a personal reason why *I*wouldn't use them. Now, from another point of view I don't see them as a top choice for someone well versed in submissions either in a street situation. First off, you never know if this guy has some buddies laying around ready to knock you one in the head as you choke out their friend, or put them in that arm bar or whatever you are doing. Second, on the street anything goes. I sometimes train some groundwork with a friend of mine who is well versed in submissions and gets me just about every time. But the thing is, while we are ground fighting, I see many opportunities to thumb him in the eyes, pinch the berries, bite him, or pretty much do anything "dirty" that could seriously hurt someone. So while we are on the ground and he is trying to get control, set up his submission, you are so used to not worrying about the "vitals" that they are wide open and unprotected. Most grappling, not all, but most grappling is set in a sparring type or sport environment. Now I am not saying that someone who is lightning fast at submitting someone would not be effective, I just am wondering if it is worth the risk. But that's just my opinion, and maybe I think that way because, like I said, that is not my strongest asset.


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## Aegis (Apr 14, 2004)

OK, evidently something needs to be pointed out:

Submissions ARE NOT necessarily done on the ground. You don't have to go to the ground with an opponent to ally an arm/wrist lock or strangle/necklock. They can be done standing. There are more available on the ground, but as a grappler (jujutsu) that wouldn't be my ideal location in a fight either.


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## clapping_tiger (Apr 14, 2004)

Aegis said:
			
		

> OK, evidently something needs to be pointed out:
> 
> Submissions ARE NOT necessarily done on the ground. You don't have to go to the ground with an opponent to ally an arm/wrist lock or strangle/necklock. They can be done standing. There are more available on the ground, but as a grappler (jujutsu) that wouldn't be my ideal location in a fight either.


I don't know if you are referring to my post, but I never said you *had* to be on the ground. I know you can lock someone up standing or on the ground, from the front, side, or rear. But, I can see how my post may have lead you belive that, seeing as how I posted about my groundfighting with my buddy. But on the ground or not, if you are grappling, what I said above still has some valid points. Like most of the time in order to control someone, on the ground or not, you are going to need to use both hands at some point to keep them in control. Do you really want to tie yourself up like that in a street situation? But if Grappling is your primary experience that may be fine for you. But in general it don't see it as a good idea.


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## Tony (Apr 15, 2004)

In My Kung Fu class we haven't really covered submission techniques although we have done a lot on self defence. I think as soon as my attacker is in a weaker position, thats the time to make a run for it and call the police!


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## Aegis (Apr 15, 2004)

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> But on the ground or not, if you are grappling, what I said above still has some valid points. Like most of the time in order to control someone, on the ground or not, you are going to need to use both hands at some point to keep them in control. Do you really want to tie yourself up like that in a street situation? But if Grappling is your primary experience that may be fine for you. But in general it don't see it as a good idea.



If you are in a fight with multiple attackers, grappling and striking are both required skills. If you are attacked with a punt you can step on, lock break and keep moving without too much difficulty (as long as you've trained to put the lock on fast) and without exposing yourself for too long. However, if it takes a little longer than expected, his mates might join in. In which case they can't come at me from one side, I'm holding their friend there, so I know where they will be coming from. Some warding kicks can buy enough time to get a strong locking position, apply the break and be ready to defend yourself again

Of course all multiple attacker situations will be different, and most will end up with you being at least slightly hurt by the end of it. Situations involving weapons will be the worst. Let's say 2 knife attckers are coming at you (for the sake of this argument we'll assume that neither is particularly skilled, as that would just be a bloodbath). With just strikes you'll be in a lot of trouble, as sooner or later they'll attack the limb you strike with. On the other hand, if you can get hold of one of them and reverse his knife on him, you drop him out of the fight immedietely. This can be done with a bent wristlock often used as a submission in other cases. Additionally you may be able to move the one attacker between you and the other, thus gaining yourself a shield while you disarm/break him. Again it's largely theoretical, but it's better than the (very few I admit) striking self defence I've seen when applied to multiple potentially armed attackers.

I think this largely comes down to what works for you, though no-one should be without at least some knowledge of both striking and grappling.


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## clapping_tiger (Apr 15, 2004)

Aegis said:
			
		

> If you are in a fight with multiple attackers, grappling and striking are both required skills. If you are attacked with a punt you can step on, lock break and keep moving without too much difficulty (as long as you've trained to put the lock on fast) and without exposing yourself for too long. However, if it takes a little longer than expected, his mates might join in. In which case they can't come at me from one side, I'm holding their friend there, so I know where they will be coming from. Some warding kicks can buy enough time to get a strong locking position, apply the break and be ready to defend yourself again
> 
> Of course all multiple attacker situations will be different, and most will end up with you being at least slightly hurt by the end of it. Situations involving weapons will be the worst. Let's say 2 knife attckers are coming at you (for the sake of this argument we'll assume that neither is particularly skilled, as that would just be a bloodbath). With just strikes you'll be in a lot of trouble, as sooner or later they'll attack the limb you strike with. On the other hand, if you can get hold of one of them and reverse his knife on him, you drop him out of the fight immedietely. This can be done with a bent wristlock often used as a submission in other cases. Additionally you may be able to move the one attacker between you and the other, thus gaining yourself a shield while you disarm/break him. Again it's largely theoretical, but it's better than the (very few I admit) striking self defence I've seen when applied to multiple potentially armed attackers.
> 
> I think this largely comes down to what works for you, though no-one should be without at least some knowledge of both striking and grappling.



Well said, and I think you are right. I guess I didn't think of it in that way, as far as blending the 2 together. I was thinking a little more black and white on this topic I guess. Even though as you can tell I lean twards the striker side of the topic, I just don't think about the little things I do that would be considered grappling, such as trapping, wrist lock takedowns, sweeps and throws, ect.


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## Gaston (Jun 5, 2004)

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> A bouncer at a college bar applied a choke, and the guy later died from it. All I know the bar got shut down for serving underage drinkers and the bouncer got arrested. Not sure how it turn out. This happen last year.





			
				Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> Bob








Firstly a clarification to stop the movement of air to the lungs you need not attack the trachea.  The epiglottis is a small flapper valve located just above the voice box. The pressure needed to close that valve as well as the blood flow is less than 2 lbs (less than your pinkie finger poking in). During training & competition I have been on both ends of that pressure, to the point of unconsciousness, with no permanent damage. So I have first hand lol experience at these techniques.  Where the inherent danger comes in is when a restraint/choke combination is applied.  If you transfer the force needed to restrain someone to their wind pipe, blood vessels long enough to choke/strangle someone unconscious permanent damage is obvious.



*back to your original point*



By submission, if you mean applying a controlling technique to an opponent with the intent of forcing him to give up.    Just how many people have been attacked by a criminal trustworthy enough to bet your life on?   Or are you inferring that that is the only way to remove someone from a situation using grappling is by submissions? 

Grappling skills allow you the choice as to whether or not to go to the ground; and when/if you do in what manner it will be. I assume the definition of a strike being an impact to the human body by a moving object. In a street fight the most powerful strike you can deliver would be to reverse that definition and turn the persons body into the moving object. Because unlike your hand, foot, or whatever you use to strike, the variety of objects to throw someone into, off of, or through are more deadly than any force the human body can deliver. When a skillfully executed throw propels your opponent at _????_the striker quickly becomes the stricken. As for what _???_ is just look around at all the things you would least like to have your body impact, and decide if you could continue an attack after impacting _??_.

sory for the length


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## tmanifold (Jun 6, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Yes, but when the prosecuting attourney askes you why you chose to kill rather than using a relativly harmless blood choke, and you start blathering on about taking people out of the equation, he will weigh your value of human life against the rest of your life. A Martial artist is expected to show control.
> Sean



Didn't realize this was still going, haven't been here awhile. To most people a choke is a choke, they don't know the difference between an air and blood choke. So I have to defend myself legally against all the negative connotation the word "Choking" brings with it. The first goal is not not blather at all. One must calmly and eloquently express why they felt the need to defend themselves, i.e. they feared for their life or safety. The second part is not to hold it that long. Hold it as long as you need to and then let it go. With a windpipe choke that is less then 5 seconds and at best the guy will be holding his throat trying to breath for awhile. with a Strangle (or blood choke) if you don't put him out he will be ready to go with in seconds of you releasing him. Lastly, you need to make it clear that you used the best judgement you could given the circumstances. Fog of combat and all that. You have to remember that real combat is not like the ring. Even in the ring you forget your game plan or get confused as to whats happening. In the street you can mulitple that by ten at least.

Now back to the original point. Submissions are not good for the street, at least most of them aren't. There are a select few that easily lend themselves to breaks that are of use. The biggest problem is as gaston said, "how many people have been attacked by a criminal trustworthy enough to bet your life on?" Most submissions are really hard to turn in to breaks, in fact most submissions are really hard to do period. Can you imagine trying to use a Juji gatame on the street? I don't know how often I have seen people screw that up, even experienced fighters. For real street style combat, I limit myself to forearm based chokes (Rear naked, guillotine), a couple of neck cranks and one or two ankle breaks that just happen to flow naturally from catching a kick.

If you are talking Bouncer work, security or Law enforcement, then there is a whole different ball game. You often have help, a position of authority, are often dealing with people who are only half assed resisting and are often restricted in what you can do by your employer. For these people submissions are required. Still they should keep in simple and direct.

Tony


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## Brother John (Jun 6, 2004)

Every case is unique, BUT:
If this person has made me fear for my life to the point that I've had to fight them, I'm not stopping until I am 110% satisfied that they CAN'T continue to be a threat. If it means snapping something, it's snapping. I won't let a street punk tap out only to stand up and re-attack.
NO
If I get the chance, I won't assume...
I'll consume.

Your Brother
John


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