# YMCA, Community College, Recreation Center for a Beginner?



## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey All,

What do you guys think about studying a martial art at the local YMCA, community college, or rec center for someone new to the martial art?

Might be an affordable way for some people to get a taste of the martial art.

What are some of the pros and cons?

Pro:
Cheap and affordable.
The instructor.

Con:
The instructor.

Know any other cheap alternatives for the beginner?  Garage dojos? Parks?


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2010)

Don't know why the instructor would fall in the 'con' column unless you happen to know s/he is a poor instructor. Depending upon the type of public venue, you might have fewer amenities and less access to training. A private school can charge you for X lessons and let you come every night if you want. The Y or the community centre may not have the same flexibility.

I've known a few really great instructors who just wanted to teach their class and didn't want to be bothered with running a school and hunting for students.

I think your choice is best made by what the instructor offers, what you can afford, and what fits into your schedule, etc.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2010)

If the instructor is a good instructor, skilled and knowledgeable in his system, and you have a good relationship with him, then it does not matter where he teaches.

Your post seems to indicate you think these settings might imply poor instruction.  Why would you think this?


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking of a post that may help new comers.

The instructor can be a Pro or a Con.  In the past I've had excellent instructors at the community colleges.  They are a rare gem to tap into when you find a good instructor.

Someone new in the martial art might be able to get a better perspective of what to look for after a semester, six months, or a year.  These places might be an affordable way for them to get an idea of what type of schools are being offered around their neighborhood.

Now with some experience they may get a better idea of what a good instructor may be.  Then go to a commercial school, private teacher, or join a club.

The YMCA, community college, rec center being a stepping stone to a fantastic journey.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2010)

Hawke said:


> The YMCA, community college, rec center being a stepping stone to a fantastic journey.


 
They could also be the best place to be, period.  Again, it really depends on the teacher.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey Crane,

I just saw your post after I replied to Gordon.  

I think YMCA, community college, rec centers (garage and parks if you can find them) have the possibility to offer great instructors.  Do I think every YMCA, community college, and rec center have good instructors?  No, I will guess that some offer poor instructors.  

Same can be said about commercial schools.  I think there are awesome instructors at commercial schools.  I also think that there are some bad ones as well.  

The places I named to train are a great stepping stone on the path for a fantastic and addicting journey.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

> They could also be the best place to be, period.  Again, it really  depends on the teacher.



That was the reason for the instructor to be a Pro or a Con.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

> Your post seems to indicate you think these settings might imply poor  instruction.  Why would you think this?


I did not mean to come across to say these are all bad places.  I listed the instructors in both Pro and Con because it depends.  Some are great.  Others not so great.

I think these overlook places can be helpful for the new student looking to get a better idea about the martial arts in an affordable way.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2010)

Just like any martial arts school, the Y, rec centers, etc., have the potential to be good or bad.  I would suggest the student to do their homework, ie: watch a class or 2, talk to the inst., the students, etc.  

On the flip side, I've had some of my best workouts in the garage, backyard settings.  A small, dedicated group of people, who're there for 1 reason...to train.  No egos, no worrying about a bump, cut or scrape, no lawsuits...just good, hard training.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

Garage dojos and parks are great places as well.  Training with family and friends is a great way to get in some practice without a pissing contest.

Any ideas for the new student to train at an affordable price?

I tend to hear people that want to learn martial arts, but not sure where to go and they are looking for alternative methods that are easy on their pocket book.

The places I usually recommend are:

YMCA                  $48 a month (Karate, Tai Chi, Yoga)
Community College $26 a unit for the semester (TSD)
Rec Center           $25 a month (Judo)
Park                    $15 a class (Dog Brothers)

The registration for each place varies.  I only listed the monthly cost.  Your mileage may vary.

I tell people to visit these places and talk with the head instructor.

Maybe I should have titled this thread as cheap martial art training for the new student.

The commercial studios are around $120 to $400 a month.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2010)

If they're looking for something affordable, then I'd say the rec center, YMCA type settings are the best routes to take.  Of course, their options will also be limited, as those facilities usually only offer certain things.  In other words, the only thing offered at those settings may be Judo or some form of Karate.  If the student is looking for BJJ, they may be out of luck.  

Another possible option would be to talk to the inst. at a school, and see if they'd be willing to work something out with just private lessons.  Another option would be to offer to help clean the school every day, do some office work, etc., in exchange for lessons at a lower cost.

The other thing that comes to mind would be to surf the web.  Using forums such as this, the student may find someone in their area that has a small group.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2010)

Hawke said:


> Garage dojos and parks are great places as well. Training with family and friends is a great way to get in some practice without a pissing contest.


 
The garage/back yard doesn't automatically mean it's an informal training session among family or friends.  This could be where the head teacher teaches.

one of my best teachers teaches in his back yard.  When it rains, we go into the garage.  He doesn't have a formal school anywhere else, and he is absolutely one of the very best in the system that he teaches.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

I do know a few instructors that offer a sliding scale.  They themselves are trying to make ends meet, but want to help a person out.

I remember there were some commercial schools they got in trouble for using children to clean the school.  Something about a child labor act that was violated.  I thought was weird.  Years ago when I did Aikido everyone had to clean the mat.  Young and old.

Affordability does limit on choices.

Another common comment I hear to keep cost down is learning from DVDs, the internet (youtube), or distance learning.  If the student is new, not a good idea.  No feed back.  No guidance from a qualified instructor.  No one with a critical eye to correct you.


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

> The garage/back yard doesn't automatically mean it's an informal  training session among family or friends


I know instructors that teach right out of their garage.  There's a silat instructor in Washington state that teaches out of his garage.  For him, it's by invitation.  

Others teach out of their garage and parks that are not family and friends.  They are there to train.

The comment I made was in response to MJS.  The instructor I know that teaches at the park, when it rains, we still practice at the park.


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## Carol (Apr 7, 2010)

Cons of training in a community environment:
- equipment may not be on par with a commercial school
- age divisions may not be the same as a commercial school (ie: 4 to 64 in a single class)
- training isn't as frequent...very few community schools have classes 6-7 days a week
- training in shared space may not have the same sense of "home"

Pros:
- classes may be smaller, a closer relationship with the instructor is more likely
- lower tuition, contracts are unlikely
- YMCA-type organizations are often reasonably well run
- Training often takes the needs of the community/neighborhood in to account

Its important that a student take their own needs in to account.  For example, I strongly prefer to train at a place with mats, because I have less back issues than I do when I train on a hard (or carpeted) floor.

There are some martial arts schools that are more affordable than the average commercial school.  The Shodokan Dojo in Salem, MA (for example) runs as a non-profit and offers a huge selection of arts for something like $60/month.  www.shodokan.org


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## Hawke (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey Carol,

You bring up some good points.  

I'll respond when I get back from training.


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## ap Oweyn (Apr 7, 2010)

Absolutely, I'd recommend studying at the rec centers or community colleges.  One of my most influential teachers was through a local community college.  And I've trained with several backyard groups.  I've taken (and taught) classes offered by gyms I've belonged to.  Hell, I haven't been involved with a commercial, full-time school in about 18 years.

Because well-taught martial arts generally aren't that profitable anyway, teachers are very often doing it for the love of the art.  In which case, they're as likely to be at one of these settings as they are in a commercial school.  Maybe even more likely, as they probably want to keep overhead down to avoid making the compromises necessary for a successful business.

The other argument for it, I think, is that direct personal experience is a much better teacher than anything else.  We get thousands upon thousands of inquiries about what style someone should take, how some school's website looks, whether anyone's heard of some instructor, etc.  And our feedback may or may not be useful.  But at the end of the day, you're always going to make your most insightful decisions based on what you've learned from actually doing.

I think that a big part of me realizing what I DO want in a training experience flows from experiences where I determined what I DON'T want.  Not a criticism of those schools.  I'm not saying they weren't what _anyone_ wanted.  I'm saying that it's easier to develop a sense for what your priorities are as you attend classes in which they are or are not satisfied.  When I left taekwondo, I started developing a better sense of what I was looking for.  "Practical, includes weapons, flowing..."

That approach, though, is always going to be more appealing if you aren't dropping huge downpayments or getting locked into long-term contracts in order to learn those lessons.  Cheaper (and perhaps shorter) class setups give you a good chance to triangulate what you want without committing quite so much.


Stuart


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2010)

Hawke said:


> I do know a few instructors that offer a sliding scale. They themselves are trying to make ends meet, but want to help a person out.
> 
> I remember there were some commercial schools they got in trouble for using children to clean the school. Something about a child labor act that was violated. I thought was weird. Years ago when I did Aikido everyone had to clean the mat. Young and old.
> 
> Affordability does limit on choices.


 
Yeah, that is kinda weird, as everyone usually did something to take care of the school.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was the result of some parent who felt that their kid was there to learn the martial arts, not clean.  Then again, even if that had nothing to do with it, its usually only for a short time anyways.  I mean, how long does it take to vacume, sweep, empty trash or wipe down mirrors?  Its not like the kid is putting in 40+ hrs a week.  



> Another common comment I hear to keep cost down is learning from DVDs, the internet (youtube), or distance learning. If the student is new, not a good idea. No feed back. No guidance from a qualified instructor. No one with a critical eye to correct you.


 
Yes, that is another option.  IMO, even if the person is a skilled MAist, personally, I'd rather not use those tools to learn from, but instead as more of a reference.


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## Hawke (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey Carol,

Yes the equipment may not be up to par with the commercial schools.  I have seen duct taped rattan sticks, duct taped focus mitts/shields.  Even though the tools for feedback may not be that great, the instructor that runs the place is awesome.  Certain arts, the only feedback is your partner.  Having equipment is nice though.

Hey Stuart,

I prefer a smaller class.  You brought up a point that after your previous experience with TKD that you got a better idea of what to look for.  I was thinking that the Y, community colleges, rec centers may be an affordable way for people to get a better idea what to look for as well.  Some of my best experiences have been parks, rec centers, and community colleges.

Hey MJS,

I see the DVDs as supplemental resource material as well.


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## repz (Apr 8, 2010)

Best instructor I ever had used to be a YMCA instructor. He was a former kickboxing champion, and he taught a mix of shotokan and American kickboxing.

I currently train in a community college. Hes a 5th degree under the skif, which isnt too bad, and he still competes in world tournaments.

Other then this, I have trained in schools that have rented space in studios. Who I guess you can put in the same boat as those above, since they dont own their own private space.

I am from NYC, and space is really expensive. Average fees go over 100 due to the wreck that is NYC rental fees.

The ones that do own their space are more salesmen then martial artists, at least when it comes to my experience. I have found more respectful, more "its about the art, not the business", and treat you like students then clients, in studios, schools, and other public rented spaces.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2010)

Hawke said:


> Hey All,
> 
> What do you guys think about studying a martial art at the local YMCA, community college, or rec center for someone new to the martial art?
> 
> ...


 
My taiji instructor; over 50 years in taijiquan, and a student of Tung Ying Chieh, teaches as a community center. 

Heck the first few times Chen Zhenglei held seminars in my area it was at a community center

I know of a very good (Japanese) Judo teacher that has a rather impressive lineage that teaches at a local YMCA

The location does not matter, the teacher does.


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## Stac3y (Apr 8, 2010)

Classes in my school take place in a variety of rec centers, community centers, school gyms and cafeterias. Instruction is excellent, and cost is very low--$50 tuition, $25 required tournament, $25 belt test. A total of $100 for each student for each 10-12 week session. Not having a dedicated facility makes it easier to serve people all over the city, and keeps overhead down.


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## geezer (Apr 8, 2010)

Some great input on this thread. When I read the OP, I was reminded of the original _Karate Kid_ movie. If I remember right, near the beginning Daniel complains that he wants to learn good Karate, not some crummy class at the Y (or something like that). So what happens? He ends up leaning on the back lot from the apartment building suprintendent! Clearly the quality of the teacher had nothing to do with how fancy the trappings. Ironically, this lesson was lost on most viewers. Instead they seem to come away with the idea that rec center/YMCA/community college classes suck, commercial classes are taught by psychos, and to really learn you've got to find the secret grandmastermaster living in the basement and paint his fence. Then maybe he'll show you the _real_ stuff and give you a car.

BTW, I'm not exactly objective on this topic. I've started teaching again after a break of many years. And guess where? That's right. Ving Tsun and Eskrima _at the local Y._ And if the students show real dedication they are invited to join us _...at the park_. I've nothing against commercial schools, but I sure don't care to run one! So this is my solution.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

I have a private dojo I has built as an add-on to my home.  I teach my serious students out of there, charging them $25 a month.  I think my instruction is great and so do my students as some of them have studied with me for over 10 years.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2010)

geezer said:


> Some great input on this thread. When I read the OP, I was reminded of the original _Karate Kid_ movie. If I remember right, near the beginning Daniel complains that he wants to learn good Karate, not some crummy class at the Y (or something like that). So what happens? He ends up leaning on the back lot from the apartment building suprintendent! Clearly the quality of the teacher had nothing to do with how fancy the trappings. Ironically, this lesson was lost on most viewers. Instead they seem to come away with the idea that rec center/YMCA/community college classes suck, commercial classes are taught by psychos, and to really learn you've got to find the secret grandmastermaster living in the basement and paint his fence. Then maybe he'll show you the _real_ stuff and give you a car.
> 
> BTW, I'm not exactly objective on this topic. I've started teaching again after a break of many years. And guess where? That's right. Ving Tsun and Eskrima _at the local Y._ And if the students show real dedication they are invited to join us _...at the park_. I've nothing against commercial schools, but I sure don't care to run one! So this is my solution.


 
My Sanda Sifu taught in his backyard, my backyard, outside near his office or where ever we could meet.

And just between you and me :uhoh: ... when I taught it was at the Y... and if I teach again (and I might in the fall) it will again be at the Y


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## JohnASE (Apr 9, 2010)

From what I get in this thread is that YMCA, community college, and rec center programs might have a tendency to not be as good as a professional school, but there are a lot of exceptions.  I whole-heartedly agree.  Don't assume such a program is inferior.

Personally, I think these are great, convenient ways to start on a budget.  If the student wants to continue, and the instructor isn't very capable, you can always find a new one.  At least at that point, the student has more experience to help choose the right school.

BTW, nice post Carol.  Good info.


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## Carol (Apr 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> Yeah, that is kinda weird, as everyone usually did something to take care of the school.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was the result of some parent who felt that their kid was there to learn the martial arts, not clean.  Then again, even if that had nothing to do with it, its usually only for a short time anyways.  I mean, how long does it take to vacume, sweep, empty trash or wipe down mirrors?  Its not like the kid is putting in 40+ hrs a week.



Because someone that goes to pay for martial arts instruction should be paying for martial arts instruction.  They are not paying for the priveledge to be someone's janitor.  If a school want work to be done in the school, then they should have it done legally, period.

Being a martial arts school is no excuse to be above the law.


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## MJS (Apr 9, 2010)

Carol said:


> Because someone that goes to pay for martial arts instruction should be paying for martial arts instruction. They are not paying for the priveledge to be someone's janitor. If a school want work to be done in the school, then they should have it done legally, period.
> 
> Being a martial arts school is no excuse to be above the law.


 
Absolutely, and I understand that.  However, I recall, at one of my last schools, in which one of the students was having some financial difficulties, so in exchange for a lower rate, she offered to do some minor cleaning after class.  This consisted of vaccuming the carpet or wiping down the mirrors or emptying garbage, or doing some light filing.  Keep in mind that these are things that many of the instructors did as well.  Many a night, I'd stay for a good hour or so, long after everyone had left, doing some cleaning.  

IMO, I dont think its above the law.  Many very traditional dojos have students help with the upkeep of the school.  Its simply the students taking care of their school.


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## Carol (Apr 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> Absolutely, and I understand that.  However, I recall, at one of my last schools, in which one of the students was having some financial difficulties, so in exchange for a lower rate, she offered to do some minor cleaning after class.  This consisted of vaccuming the carpet or wiping down the mirrors or emptying garbage, or doing some light filing.  Keep in mind that these are things that many of the instructors did as well.  Many a night, I'd stay for a good hour or so, long after everyone had left, doing some cleaning.


 
The barter system is legal. It is not always done in a legal fashion,  and it is not an excuse for circumventing other laws such as age  requirements, minimum wage laws, tax liabilities, eligibility to work,  etc.  

I can understand wanting to help a student that is in a tight spot, but give her the respect of doing it legally instead of exploiting her.

Give the school the same respect as well.  It would not be fair to the other students to see their school shut down because the owner couldn't be bothered with following their state labor laws.  



> IMO, I dont think its above the law.  Many very traditional dojos have students help with the upkeep of the school.  Its simply the students taking care of their school.



Sure but just because someone else's teacher did it, didn't make it right...or legal. There is a reason why labor laws in this country are strict...it is because we have been shown time and time again how lower-income workers, or children, can be exploited.  

If a school owner wants students to take care of the school, then s/he should take the steps to have it legally recognized as a non-profit organization, and not a for-profit business.


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## Senjojutsu (Apr 10, 2010)

Many good points made already.
One thing, about weapons, _e.g.,_ weapons based MAs or Self-Defense drills...
Some YMCAs or community centers "may" have policies preventing that type of training, or have the prohibition of bringing weapons onsite.


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## jda (Apr 10, 2010)

I've made it to 2nd Dan at a community college/rec center.  Both instructors I've trained under have been fantastic and very knowledgeable and we black belts also train in the local park when the weather is warm.  Those have been some of the best training sessions, also.  I don't see any reason that a rec center/community college/YMCA should be considered a stepping stone toward more serious training.  We train very hard and are very serious about our martial art.  At last years AAU Taekwondo Ozark regional qualifier we sent thirteen students and came home with eleven gold medals and two silver.  ALL of our instructors are dedicated and we must be fairly good to train so many champions. I think that the quality of the school depends on the instructors, not the location.  
Jim


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## Hawke (Apr 10, 2010)

Hey All,

Thanks for everyone's replies.  Hopefully people may find this info helpful.

You bring a good point about weapons.  My local community college that teaches FMA is allowed to bring rattan sticks and trainer knives (no live blades).  Also the Dog Brothers practice at a park with rattan and trainer knives. I can see how other places may frown on the idea of weapons on campus or in a public area. 

This reminds me of people hiding their art in dances and using sticks or scarves to hide the weapon movement.


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## Hawke (Apr 10, 2010)

The comment I made about these places as stepping stones is about opening the students eyes further.  They usually offer a beginner's course for people with no martial art background with a whole group of new people.  

Some people may take a free trail class for a day, week, or a month.

These places offer an affordable way to get your feet wet for a longer period of time.

I know a lady that got her 2nd degree BB at a community college.  She started at age 15 and continues to study there in her twenties.

My comment about instructors as being a PRO or a CON depends on the instructor, so I placed it under both.  The instructor is the major factor to our martial art training.


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## Hawke (Apr 10, 2010)

Hey All,

Not sure if I worded my OP correctly.

I was attempting to help the new people that are thinking of starting a martial art an affordable way to try it out.

I wanted them to know some of the PROs and CONs this offered.  Also was looking to see if anybody to add to the PROs and CONs and maybe other alternative places and methods to start the martial art at an affordable price.

Clear as mud?


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## Haze (Apr 11, 2010)

As stated before,,,,,,,,,,,only pro/con is really the instructor.

I train/teach at a community center. Some of the most realistic training I've ever been involved in. $50/month 3 nights per week, mostly adults.

I also have a friend that teaches at a local Y. Both instructors are part of the same association but the Y seems to be a little easier physically. Also geared more towards tournament sparring etc. Mostly kids training and lawsuit/liability concerns.

Same advise as any school,,,,,,,,,,,,,,talk to the instructor,, watch a few classes and if interested take a few classes before making a commitment.


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## MJS (Apr 11, 2010)

Carol said:


> The barter system is legal. It is not always done in a legal fashion, and it is not an excuse for circumventing other laws such as age requirements, minimum wage laws, tax liabilities, eligibility to work, etc.
> 
> I can understand wanting to help a student that is in a tight spot, but give her the respect of doing it legally instead of exploiting her.
> 
> ...


 
My apologies if you thought I was suggesting anything other than doing this legal.   I'd imagine if a student was that young, the parents would of course be talking to the inst. as well, so if the teacher simply said, "Listen, if your son/daughter, would be willing to stay for 20min after her classes, and help with the cleaning, I could cut her tuition in half, so that way, she could continue her training."  IMHO, I see nothing wrong with that.  

As for students helping out afterwards....IMO, I dont think the business needs to be registered differently.  The school, IMO, is not just the teachers, but everyone who trains there.  People should have some pride in their training hall, and should not think twice about helping to put away equipment after a class.  I've asked people many times, and have never had anyone complain about it.  Its simply giving something back, which is often a part of the training, especially when you get to the higher ranks.  If asking students, both kids and adults, to take 2hrs out of their Saturday afternoon, to head to the local park, to pick up trash, plant some flowers, trees, etc., is a crime, then we're in a very, very sad state of thinking.


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## JohnASE (Apr 12, 2010)

Regarding cleaning the dojo, I don't know anything about the legal side, but I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's a labor issue.  I think it's part of the student's instruction.  You teach a student how to punch and kick.  You teach a student how to tie a belt and care for a gi.  You teach a student how to train hard and achieve goals.

Why can't cleaning a dojo be part of that training?  You're teaching a work ethic.  You're teaching the student to show respect for the dojo by keeping it clean.  The instructor isn't hiring the student to clean the dojo.  The instructor is teaching proper care of their training hall.

Sounds reasonable to me, but like I said, I don't know if it's legal.  Reducing fees in exchange for cleaning is probably different.


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## jks9199 (Apr 12, 2010)

JohnASE said:


> Regarding cleaning the dojo, I don't know anything about the legal side, but I see nothing wrong with it. I don't think it's a labor issue.  I think it's part of the student's instruction.  You teach a student how to punch and kick.  You teach a student how to tie a belt and care for a gi.  You teach a student how to train hard and achieve goals.
> 
> Why can't cleaning a dojo be part of that training?  You're teaching a work ethic.  You're teaching the student to show respect for the dojo by keeping it clean.  The instructor isn't hiring the student to clean the dojo.  The instructor is teaching proper care of their training hall.
> 
> Sounds reasonable to me, but like I said, I don't know if it's legal.  Reducing fees in exchange for cleaning is probably different.


It actually is, in some styles.  In many Japanese styles, it's traditional to close the dojo for a few days around New Years, and many of the members help clean the dojo.  And, a few karate styles, there's a particular way of scrubbing the floor at the end of the training session; it's sneaky.  Not only are you cleaning the floor for the next class -- but it's a very good exercise for the arms and legs...

At the same time, there's a problem when someone is paying for the privilege of teaching the classes -- as often happens to black belt students...  Or expects that guy who happens to be a lawyer or plumber to work for the school for free reviewing the legal forms or fixing the pipes.  (Note: this is entirely different if the person truly volunteers their services, or are compensated at their professional rates.)  This practice will open the door to regulation (as a career training school; it already has happened to yoga schools!), as well as exposes the owner/grand master to some potential labor law liability.  Same headaches can occur when someone allows a student to trade labor for lessons...


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## Golden Harvest (May 8, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> If the instructor is a good instructor, skilled and knowledgeable in his system, and you have a good relationship with him, then it does not matter where he teaches.
> 
> Your post seems to indicate you think these settings might imply poor instruction. Why would you think this?


 
I agree with you completely.  A person teaching in the YMCA, Parks and Recreation Community Centers, public parks, or private garages is there because he wants to be there and share his passion with you.  He is not in it for the money.  Whereas, a commercial school is all about money.  It is a business and not a charity.  There are rental, insurance, utilities, and euipment expenses, and thus the high cost.  You may get good instuction but it will not be cheap.  If I am paying $140 a month, I want to learn from the owner/master and not from his juniors and not with 30 other students.

To find good instuctors, you need to look everywhere, including places such as YMCA.  As a benefit, there are not contracts.


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## repz (May 9, 2010)

For the people debating cleaning a dojo, and the legal side. What about blackbelt instructors who pay the monthly fee, but it asked to teach as a fill in by the head ranking instructor? Isnt this common as well? With the only payment being teaching experience that awards new dans/degrees?


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## geezer (May 16, 2010)

repz said:


> For the people debating cleaning a dojo, and the legal side. What about blackbelt instructors who pay the monthly fee, but it asked to teach as a fill in by the head ranking instructor? Isnt this common as well? With the only payment being teaching experience that awards new dans/degrees?


 
Hey, I don't see the problem. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the "ins and outs" of the laws involved. But in my organization, both a knowledge of our instructional methodologies, and actual teaching experience are required for second degree rank. In fact, one of the big reasons I finally started teaching again was so one of our first degree students would have an opportunity to fulfill this requirement by assisting me and learning the ropes.

Now, I don't charge him for that. In fact I volunteer my own teaching time to support the Y. But _if I were_ running a full-time, for-profit business, I don't see why I couldn't charge him. After all, it's part of our learning requirements, and I had to pay to be coached as an instructor back in my time. Heck, I also had to pay big-time to the state university when I was working (unpaid) as a student teacher in order to get my teaching certificate to work at a public high school.


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## jks9199 (May 16, 2010)

geezer said:


> Hey, I don't see the problem. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the "ins and outs" of the laws involved. But in my organization, both a knowledge of our instructional methodologies, and actual teaching experience are required for second degree rank. In fact, one of the big reasons I finally started teaching again was so one of our first degree students would have an opportunity to fulfill this requirement by assisting me and learning the ropes.
> 
> Now, I don't charge him for that. In fact I volunteer my own teaching time to support the Y. But _if I were_ running a full-time, for-profit business, I don't see why I couldn't charge him. After all, it's part of our learning requirements, and I had to pay to be coached as an instructor back in my time. Heck, I also had to pay big-time to the state university when I was working (unpaid) as a student teacher in order to get my teaching certificate to work at a public high school.


It's one thing to have a student in what's similar to an apprentice program paying for the instruction he's receiving as he's teaching.  I presume that you were there watching, guiding, and critiquing the instruction your student was giving.  It's another, in my opinion, to charge the student for the privilege of coming in there to teach classes so that the master/owner doesn't have to be there.  Which happens in quite a few commercial programs...

I know someone who signed up for an "instructor training program" at a commercial school in my area.  He had trained in a version of that style in his childhood -- but not since.  As in not trained in that in decades.  His knowledge of that style was never assessed, as I understand it.  But he was put to work teaching, right away.  Sound like a sound instructor base at that school?  Sure doesn't to me!


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## MJS (May 16, 2010)

repz said:


> For the people debating cleaning a dojo, and the legal side. What about blackbelt instructors who pay the monthly fee, but it asked to teach as a fill in by the head ranking instructor? Isnt this common as well? With the only payment being teaching experience that awards new dans/degrees?


 
Once I reached BB, I was never charged, so maybe I'm not the best person to be answering this question.   But I'll toss in my 2 pennies anyways. LOL.  Chances are, the head inst. does not teach every single class.  They may, they may not.  They may do a few days, and other black belts may take others.  Thats the way its been at pretty much every school I've been at.  Of course, many times, once you start advancing in the black belt ranks, its not so much about learning a new kata or technique...how many more do we need anyways...but its more of what you, as a BB, give back to the arts, to your teacher, to the school.  

Like I said, I doubt that the cops are going to come knocking on your door, if you ask a student to help take care of the school, which while its technically not their school in a physical sense, but it is their school, a place that they train.


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## Carol (May 16, 2010)

MJS said:


> Once I reached BB, I was never charged, so maybe I'm not the best person to be answering this question.   But I'll toss in my 2 pennies anyways. LOL.  Chances are, the head inst. does not teach every single class.  They may, they may not.  They may do a few days, and other black belts may take others.  Thats the way its been at pretty much every school I've been at.  Of course, many times, once you start advancing in the black belt ranks, its not so much about learning a new kata or technique...how many more do we need anyways...but its more of what you, as a BB, give back to the arts, to your teacher, to the school.
> 
> Like I said, I doubt that the cops are going to come knocking on your door, if you ask a student to help take care of the school, which while its technically not their school in a physical sense, but it is their school, a place that they train.



Probably not, but an inquiry by a lawyer or a complaint filed to the state's labor board can easily cost a school far more than they would have gained by trying to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.

My old school suspended my tuition when I lost my job.  They did for 2 months.  What they asked me to do was to come to class every single day and to be as much of a part of class as I could.  Believe me, I did.  Personally, I think for-profit schools should follow something similar.  If they want something from the student in exchange for suspending their tuition, ask for it on the mat.

Honor is a word talked about many times in martial arts.  A school should show enough honor to uphold basic laws, yes?


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## jks9199 (May 16, 2010)

There's also a distinction between club dues and commercial businesses.  In a club setting, it's a bit different than a business where the people paying for the services are then expected to provide those same services to themselves and other paying customers...


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## psyon82 (May 17, 2010)

Wow, this is a very helpful topic! I never thought of looking at those places for instruction. I was very fortunate, for my first introduction to Kajukenbo was by a 9th degree Grand Master (Dann Baker) while attending college. The only "con" in my book was I could only go 1 day a week due my schedule.


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## Laus (Jun 11, 2010)

I study both Karate and Aikido. The Karate is in a private location and opporates full time. The Aikido is held at the YMCA.

As far as the quality of instruction, it is just as good at the Y as if it were in its own location. My Sensei has been training for more than 20 years - his own Sensei has a full time dojo. The location is irrelevant to the quality of the teacher. As someone once said a dojo can be anywhere, at anytime. That said, do make sure the teacher is actually _qualified_ to teach a martial art and is not just someone working for the Y a few times a week. I know around here the martial arts that are taught at local Ys are taught by instructors who have made arrangements to teach at the Y - I don't think they are even paid by the Y, but they may get to use the space free of charge. I'm not sure if that is true everywhere though.

Being at the Y has several advantages. For one thing we pay no membership fees (aside from the Y fee). Our dojo is not-for-profit - even when it was in its own location students were only charged the bare minimum to keep the place running - so the Y is perfect for us. Also, you have access to a full gym to keep up your conditioning without paying for a second membership, and all the other useful things a Y can provide. 

The disadvantage is the limited number of classes per week. I do have the right to train at my Sensei's dojo under his instructor, but would have to pay a separate membership to do so.


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## Shawn (Jun 15, 2010)

Sifu Jon Funk teaches out of a community centre, and you would be hard pressed to find better instruction anywhere.  Location only matters in relation to your ability to get there.  

I've taught classes out of a community centre myself, and in a park when there were no other options.

Shawn


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## Jordan274 (Jun 14, 2011)

Hawke said:


> Hey All,
> 
> What do you guys think about studying a martial art at the local YMCA, community college, or rec center for someone new to the martial art?
> 
> ...




Actually there is a Tai Chi and Bagua instructor near where I live at a local YMCA centre.
But basically its just a meeting place and actually instructs outside to achieve greater confidence in you (apprently).

The pro's I've found, (From research and friends that take his class) are:
Cheap
Cares for the individual needs (E.g. slow learners and such)
The instructor is well know in the UK, Swansea (Where he's based) and even well know in other places.

Con:
I hate to sound and be bias but from what I've heard I can't find any with the actually instructor or class.
Learning out doors is a turn off for me though, purely because I'm to shy to start performing forms in public (But I'm sure if you mentioned it, he should tailor to you're needs). 

I think as long as your instructor is legit and got the correct creditionals and experience then it should be okay.
At least its not about the money with these kind of people. 

- Jordan


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## Brother John (Jul 2, 2011)

Hawke said:


> Hey All,
> 
> What do you guys think about studying a martial art at the local YMCA, community college, or rec center for someone new to the martial art?
> 
> ...


 
The instructor of a school is ALWAYS either the biggest "Pro" or biggest "Con" of any school. Period. WHERE they teach hardly even enters the picture. 
If they are worth their salt they could help you achieve greatly while teaching you in the middle of a public bathroom.
If they are a horrible teacher or worse, a fraud, then the prettiest and most well equipped mansion of a Dojo won't help them produce a single decent martial artist out of a thousand.

There's many a Grandmaster that taught out of places like garages, hotel rooms, back of a tea shop, alleyway behind their restruant, borrowed dance studios, on the beach, public parks, back-yards, aunts basement......etc., 
and believe me.....the crappy instructor in a shiny well equipped and expensive dojo is no laughing matter but a sad fact in many Many cities. 

Your Brother
John


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## tayl0124 (Aug 19, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> They could also be the best place to be, period.  Again, it really depends on the teacher.



This is exactly my situation.  I study at the local YMCA.  I see no need to go anywhere else.  My Sensei has been studying for nearly 30+ years, and continues to study anything he can get his hands on.  In the 2+ years I have been doing this, I have met many impressive Martial artists, and there are a few he surrounds himself with that I would like to meet.  He teaches for the love of his art, not for the money it brings in.  He is a full time photographer for our local paper, he makes good money, he doesn't need to teach karate for a living,  as a matter of fact he only clocks in 1/4th of the time, as him and our other 3 instructors take turns because the y will only pay one person at a time for our class.  IF YOU FIND A GOOD TEACHER, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE HE/SHE TEACHES!


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## Cyriacus (Aug 19, 2011)

tayl0124 said:


> This is exactly my situation.  I study at the local YMCA.  I see no need to go anywhere else.  My Sensei has been studying for nearly 30+ years, and continues to study anything he can get his hands on.  In the 2+ years I have been doing this, I have met many impressive Martial artists, and there are a few he surrounds himself with that I would like to meet.  He teaches for the love of his art, not for the money it brings in.  He is a full time photographer for our local paper, he makes good money, he doesn't need to teach karate for a living,  as a matter of fact he only clocks in 1/4th of the time, as him and our other 3 instructors take turns because the y will only pay one person at a time for our class.  IF YOU FIND A GOOD TEACHER, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE HE/SHE TEACHES!


I agree - Where i train TKD, they teach out of a Church Hall. Why? Because its seriously one of the only free Halls in town thats big enough.

Most of the time, a Hall is chosen either for Price, or because nothing else is available. You cant judge an Instructer based on where they train from.


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