# Why not have it on?



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

When I now that I'm going to be out and about at night, I will often carry my Glock 17 with a Surfire attached to it.  

I've read in some articles by "experts" that this isn't a good idea, but they've never explained why.  Am I missing something obvious?  Nothing in the training I've had, both military and civilian would point to this being a bad thing.  I wouldn't be surprised if I had a "DOH!!" moment though.  Been happening a lot lately.

Curious as to your thoughts on the matter,

Jeff


----------



## Drac (Aug 9, 2006)

Not real up on all the gun stuff, that's not my field..But why not?? Maybe they're are concerned with you being able to clear your holster with the Surefire attached??? My guess...


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

Drac said:
			
		

> Not real up on all the gun stuff, that's not my field..But why not?? Maybe they're are concerned with you being able to clear your holster with the Surefire attached??? My guess...


With the proper holster, that isn't a problem.  Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't understand why they'd say it's not a good idea.

Jeff


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 9, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with it, as long as you can comfortably carry it, and that you have a good idea of where your target is in the first place.  

Some people might say "don't use it because they'll see where the light is coming from."  That's why I simply say, that if you aren't sure of where your target is without the light, then don't flick it on just yet.


----------



## ammonihah99 (Aug 9, 2006)

A while back I read an article on www.plusp.com (no longer available) and the author discouraged use of tactical lights. If I remember correctly, the main reason was because it gives the committed attacker a good target to shoot at. The other reasons were that it gives the element of surprise away, eg. he can see you coming down the hallway. If you turn on the house lights as you go, he just knows you're somewhere on that side of the house and can't pinpoint how far away you are.

I did however find another board that mentioned the same thing:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-34.html

I think the effectiveness would also depend on which variables of attack you are presented with. Are you in your home? In your yard? At a friend's house? On a late night walk? With your family?

This isn't really germane, but I think the common argument of using a super bright light as a reliable means of self-defense is flawed, the committed attacker could care less, they're not vampires. If it's being used as an accessory to a firearm to help you see better, then that's a different story. I have absolutely zero tactical firearm training so I'll just leave it at that.


----------



## Drac (Aug 9, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Some people might say "don't use it because they'll see where the light is coming from


 
Makes sense..But until the department issues "night vision" goggles I have to do building searches with my Sig and Surefire held in a tactical position and pray that I'm FASTER on  the draw if surprized...


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 9, 2006)

Heck, I don't want to use the light to slow down the threat.  I just want to make sure it is a threat before pressing the trigger.  So it would only be on a split second before I fire.


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 9, 2006)

ammonihah99 said:
			
		

> A while back I read an article on www.plusp.com (no longer available)


 
I remember that place.  It was run by Darrell Mulroy.  I used to have a good number of friendly debates with him back in the days of rec.guns on Usenet.  Poor fellow passed a few years ago, though, because of complications from his foot surgery.


----------



## AzQkr (Aug 9, 2006)

I don't know anyone who carrires one on their gun on the street, but quite a few who have dedicated house arms with the lights on them.

I wouldn't have one on the gun on the street myself. I find them to upset the balance of the weapon to some extent, and believe that if you are going to carry thusly on the steeet, one should shoot with the light on the weapon extensively to gain the familiarity of that setup.

I carry a 3 watt LED that takes 1 CR123A batttery in my pocket at all times. The Surefire high intensity sits next to the g36 at the nightstand to be available with the gun if necessary to check a bump in the night. Personally, I don't like lights ON my weapons. 

Drac,

If you are doing building searches, do you not already have the weapon/pistol in your hand and the light in the other [ say harries mode or something similiar? ] I didn't understand the "faster on the draw" comment, as when I searched buildings, the firearm was out and in the hand [ might depend on the type of search I suppose ].

Brownie


----------



## Drac (Aug 10, 2006)

AzQkr said:
			
		

> Drac,
> 
> If you are doing building searches, do you not already have the weapon/pistol in your hand and the light in the other


 
Yes and no..My firearm is out and my tactical light is between the fingers of my support hand..Both hands are in contact with my gun butt..


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 10, 2006)

I would guess alot of the negativity towards lights on rails comes from people not trained to use them correctly. In the dark people want to see, especially if they're looking for someone/something. The gun is drawn, but they are not sure of the target so they start searching the area with thier light, not realizing the muzzle is sweeping everything, not real safe gun handling IMHO.  The gun is NOT a flashlight, some people tend to use it that way.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 10, 2006)

Got to agree with you on that.  Using the weapon as a flashlight is a piss poor idea.  This is one thing I do have to blame on TV and the movies.  It makes a cool looking image to have the tactical team run around with their lights on.


----------



## AzQkr (Aug 10, 2006)

The floating light:

 The positions that are incorperated into a system are the FBI, modified FBI, neck index, centerline index, and the Harries.

Wanding is a search technique that incorporates the "light on/light off/move" principle with splashes of random, arching, light strokes. The random strokes give enough light to see an area to manuver through or to identify a threat. The strokes also make it harder for an adversary to determine your position or your direction if they do not have a visual on you already. Wanding works best in large areas.

Strobing is random, quick, bursts of light that is manipulated in both direction and angle. Strobing is best used when you are approaching a corner or a doorway that must be taken. The concept of strobing is to use the bursts in a random pattern that makes it impossible for the adversary to know where you are or where you are going. If done correctly you can "take" the corner or make entry into the door in a manner that is much more unpredictable by your adversary. If you use the old light on/light off/move without wanding and strobing, you are telegraphing your position and your movement.

With the rail mounted light, most if not all of the above is impossible. I want the versatility my light gives me which will be situationally dependant.

Brownie


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 10, 2006)

A couple of things.  I do use those techniques with a weapon mounted light.  they are really just good common sense.  Yes, you have to be careful not to point your muzzle in an unsafe direction, but if worse comes to worse, the light comes right off and they can be used unmounted.  

The main reason I carry that combo really isn't for a tactical reason though.  If I ever have to go before a court after I defended myself with a handgun, I want it to look like I've done everything I could to insure that I didn't accidentally shoot someone.

Jeff


----------



## AzQkr (Aug 10, 2006)

_but if worse comes to worse, the light comes right off and they can be used unmounted.

_I might offer this to ponder:

If you are in a situation where you are searching with the light for an intruder, is that the time to be thinking you can take the time to take the light off for any reason?

Once I'm searching for that bump in the night or an actual intruder, I'm more apt to concentrate on the matters at hand than equipment placement. With the light handheld, harries initially, if I need to use it in another manner as described in the last post, it immeidate.

I practice and shoot mostly one handed, the light can be brought to the gun, the neck, center, etc without thinking about it. 

Just my take on the sibject anyway.

Brownie


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 10, 2006)

Good points.  For me however, I don't use a sidearm to check out the bumps in the night.  I'm much more likely to grab my shorty AR, which does have a light attached.  Don't think I'd have to use it though.

Jeff


----------



## arnisandyz (Aug 10, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> If I ever have to go before a court after I defended myself with a handgun, I want it to look like I've done everything I could to insure that I didn't accidentally shoot someone.
> 
> Jeff



Jeff,

You never know how its going to go in court. Although we know better, the prosecutor might paint an image of you to the jury as a "Rambo" type with your "tactical" gear out "looking" for trouble. The light MIGHT be a liability in court.  Will you have enough time to draw your weapon hit the light and identify whats going on in a stressful situation? Most likely, if its dark and I feel my life is in danger, and someone makes a quick move to get thier hands in the pockets, I might not wait to see what it is.  Mistakes can happen. If you have a light on your gun and there is a bad shoot, can the prosecutor say "You had a light on your weapon, why didn't you use it? if you would have just turned it on you would have seen the guy was just..."  

Also, how do you ID a threat without drawing your weapon? Lets say you feel uneasy about a situation, but it doesn't warrant drawing your weapon. If you pull your gun to ID whats going on, YOU are the one who will brandishing a weapon. If you go to pull the light off to use just the light, how do you keep your weapon concealed? I don't think anyones gone to jail for pulling a flashlight.

Sorry that I don't pose solid reason why or why not, but maybe this can raise some of your own questions about carrying a light on your weapon on the street.  I choose not to, others do. I do carry a small light in my off pocket and I've used it for many tasks non-defense related.


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Aug 10, 2006)

No need to apologize about not having a definite answer.  

I also carry a couple of non-attached small flashlights for general illumination tasks.  I'd hate to have to pull out my pistol to read a map.  

You did bring up some great points that'll give me a lot of food for thought.

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Sep 13, 2006)

I think its all hair splitting. Having the light on the weapon is darn handy when you DO have to shoot in a low light situation. Just carry a small tac light AND have the light on the weapon for those situations when you want to light something up but not point a weapon at it. If Im worried enough to have my weapon out, Id use the rail light. If I had my gun along "just in case" than Id use the regular flashlight. No law sayong you cant just drop the light and draw if needs be.


----------

