# mook jong



## matsu (May 10, 2008)

hi guys
i have a client who will put together a cheap wooden dummy for me to start with. 
as you might have read i have only been practising wing chun since feb this yr.

my question is... will it benefit my wing chun learning to ask my sifu to teach me the basics on the dummy.?

i have a private lesson with him every month and we explore a few things he cannot teach everyone in a normal class.

i have requested lok sau /chi sau so i can practise with my son

 and wonder if the wooden dummy would enhance or detract from my beginnings onto wing chun.?

big fanx
 matsu


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## matsu (May 10, 2008)

i sometimes wonder if i,m asking dumb questions. i realise it takes an age to become profeccient in any martial art and that practising the basics is the best idea.
 i practise at least 3x week plus the lesson and i will be allowed to join the thurs class very soon.
but for me  and my borderline ocd-ness about any thing i do i need to learn constantly new things... so sorry if a dumb newbie question.
 matsu


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## BlueVino (May 10, 2008)

Since you asked, my advice is that you just do what Sifu tells you to do. 

About the only thing I'd ask him for is "Sifu, what should I practice for our next lesson?"

Cheers,
    Trueblood


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## matsu (May 10, 2008)

THANKS FOR THE INPUT.
oops caps!
i try to ask sifu for a specific weak area he can see that i then try to attack for the next week.
i wondered if it would slow or speed my progress and thus enjoyment.
cheers
matsu


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## qwksilver61 (May 11, 2008)

Hello, I asked the same question once before.I will try to find the post for you.I wanted to learn the Mook Jong for myself,seeing that I could not find a suitable training partner.It made perfect sense to me.Leung Ting quoted in his book "116 Wing Tsun Dummy Techniques" Pg.9 " Such a wooden dummy will help rectifying the delivery of the movements of the driller,in the same way,as a protractor will rectify an angle.If a driller can make use of the wooden dummy to correct his movements,he will be able to improve rapidly. Most fail to realize the relative position between the angle of their movements and that of their opponent,thus losing the "protractor effect"they also fail to realize that the importance of Wing tsun lies in its "simplicity and practicability."
Enuff Said.
Also,here is what I learned when I studied Wing Tsun in this order;slow,proper placement,skill,speed,then power.


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## KamonGuy2 (May 12, 2008)

matsu said:


> i sometimes wonder if i,m asking dumb questions. i realise it takes an age to become profeccient in any martial art and that practising the basics is the best idea.
> i practise at least 3x week plus the lesson and i will be allowed to join the thurs class very soon.
> but for me and my borderline ocd-ness about any thing i do i need to learn constantly new things... so sorry if a dumb newbie question.
> matsu


Never be afraid to ask questions. 
Many wing chun schools differ in what they teach. In Kamon, we do not work the dummy until a lot later (senior level) as we feel it is important to build up 'stick' and footwork before using it
Other schools teach it the first day. 
Neither way is wrong. 
It solely depends on how your instructor trains you

As most people have suggested - ask your Sifu if it is worth getting a wooden dummy. He is really the only one who will know if it is right for your particular system


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## matsu (May 13, 2008)

thanks again for all responses.

qwiksilver. thats the answer i was hoping to get. some personal info.
i will of course ask my sifu.
matsu


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## JustAVisitor (May 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> In Kamon, we do not work the dummy until a lot later (senior level) as we feel it is important to build up 'stick' and footwork before using it


Same in my school. Just few complementary notes. 
Practicing with the dummy does improve defense and close range attacks. You do need to build up 'stick' and footwork before using it, if you want to make the dummy dance.
The dummy is built to fit your size and, since it is a training partner, you should be the one building it.


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## matsu (May 16, 2008)

JAV-again thanks for the input.

being mildly impatient which i think even wing chun wont cure i will get it made anyway and i will ask mate to measure it to me etc have researched as much as i could for design sizes etc etc.
i hope to continue for the duration so it will help me keep focused,
i undestand the footwork aspect and i will ask sifu if he can teach me 121 purely for me to work on at home.

kamon guy- thanks for the advice. 
matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (May 16, 2008)

Matsu, 

Just a last note - When I was a beginner in wing chun I bought a pair of butterfly knives. Whilst the style I trained in did not teach the knives until senior lvel, they were an inspirational tool. I didn't use them in training, but just having them gave me extra enthusiasm

Same might apply for your dummy. Just seeing it everyday will give you that extra boost


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## matsu (May 16, 2008)

haha:jedi1:

it would certainly inspire me to get good enough for sifu to allow me to start on it!!

thanks for taking time to post to me

 where are you based mate?
di you see my other question?
lyme regis dorset???

matsu


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## brocklee (May 18, 2008)

JustAVisitor said:


> Practicing with the dummy does improve defense and close range attacks. You do need to build up 'stick' and footwork before using it, if you want to make the dummy dance.



Very true.  My sifu allows students to use the dummy from day one.  If there is an odd number of students in the class that day, the one that doesn't have a partner hops on the dummy.  Slowly but surely the practitioner will relate how the dummy simulates a training buddy.  Sooner or later they will develop the idea behind it and beable to freestyle at will.  Getting the dummy to dance happens after proper footwork is achieved.


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## KamonGuy2 (May 20, 2008)

matsu said:


> haha:jedi1:
> 
> it would certainly inspire me to get good enough for sifu to allow me to start on it!!
> 
> ...


I'm based in London area and you are always welcome to pop down to my class for any hints or pointers (please ask/tell your Sifu first though)
I don't know any guys in Lyme Regis but there must be a school there 
Have you tried the internet (google)?


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## mutantwc (May 20, 2008)

Matsu,

I agree with many on here that it may depend on what your Sifu intends or believes you are ready for.

My experience - I started Wing Chun in February of this year also and at the middle/end of March my Sifu had a Mook Jong sign up sheet.  It was an ancillary class with an extra fee, but I knew if I was allowed to take it that I really wanted to.

I asked and he said that whether I learn all the hand forms first or wooden dummy doesn't matter (the order that is).  So, I signed up and finished all 11 forms last week.

In all honesty, it's absolutely helped my Wing Chun.  I wouldn't say that my Mook Jong technique is great nor is my training... but it has given me an absolutely new perspective and reference point.  I can say that Mook Jong has helped several of my hands, for example my bong sau is MUCH better than when I first started.  

You might assume it was from training it, but since we don't work bong sau daily and I was working bong sau daily on the wooden dummy when we did get to a day when we were working with bong sau or kwan sau (incorporates lower bong sau) I had much better form.

This is just my experience, I hope it helps.  As other folks have pointed out, what you learn will be up to your Sifu to decide.

Cheers,
mutantwc


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## KamonGuy2 (May 21, 2008)

That is a very loose statement from your instructor
Whilst we have stated that every Sifu has a different order of teaching dummy, it is very important in your training which forms you learn first

Learning the dummy can give you a rigid gung lik energy that will influence your training if done early

Similarly, if you learn the three hand forms first you are developing a slightly more relaxed movement to your wing chun

To say 'It doesn't matter what order you do them' is a bit carefree

Are you sure that is what your instructor said?


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## matsu (May 21, 2008)

haha i have a private lesson next wed so i will ask him then.# i can see the benefits due to my ocd nature.
i learned lok sau on monday.. excellent and fustrating mentally draining but soooooo enjoyable. loved it. x

matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (May 22, 2008)

Lok sao is a great drill and done so many ways

It is a fun way of training your arms in a repetitive motion without going on the bags for hours

Yeah clarification from your Sifu would be a good idea


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## matsu (May 22, 2008)

thank you kamonguy
if i,m in the area iwill look you up.

matsu


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## matsu (May 28, 2008)

are the plans for the wooden dummy on this site the esiest to follow?
i am about to get a mate to make one for me.....hahahahahahahahah
sooo excited!
thanks again
matsu


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## geezer (May 28, 2008)

matsu said:


> i sometimes wonder if i,m asking dumb questions. i realise it takes an age to become profeccient in any martial art and that practising the basics is the best idea.


Stupid question? Of course it is! And, as one of the most brilliant professors I ever had liked to say, _"The only really stupid question is the one you don't ask"_. In my branch or Wing Tsun, the "true" dummy form is taught only after many years of training and completing the three empty hand sets and their applications in chi-sau and fighting. _However_ many sifus have students practice particular movements and sequences on the dummy. This can be very helpful in refining technique since, as Qwksilver often notes, the dummy can act like a protractor to correct your positioning. Right now I don't have a dummy set up and I really could benefit from one. Anyway, see what your sifu says and let us know. Happy training.


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## KamonGuy2 (May 29, 2008)

geezer said:


> Stupid question? Of course it is! And, as one of the most brilliant professors I ever had liked to say, _"The only really stupid question is the one you don't ask"_. In my branch or Wing Tsun, the "true" dummy form is taught only after many years of training and completing the three empty hand sets and their applications in chi-sau and fighting. _However_ many sifus have students practice particular movements and sequences on the dummy. This can be very helpful in refining technique since, as Qwksilver often notes, the dummy can act like a protractor to correct your positioning. Right now I don't have a dummy set up and I really could benefit from one. Anyway, see what your sifu says and let us know. Happy training.


Now you are sounding more like Leung Ting
'True' wing chun? Absolute nonsense

His question was not stupid - I have that question asked all the time
It is a valid and important question


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## geezer (May 29, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Now you are sounding more like Leung Ting
> 'True' wing chun? Absolute nonsense
> 
> His question was not stupid - I have that question asked all the time
> It is a valid and important question



You're _exactly right_ on both counts Kamon, ...I was trying to be ironic, but forgot that if you don't add a "LOL", it may not look that way. I'm glad you pointed this out--Matsu? are you getting this too? Sorry if I sounded like an _arrogant_ jerk. Honestly, I'm not arrogant...


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## matsu (May 29, 2008)

hey geezer( thats gotta be an english yeah?)

its cool.typing and texting are not great at relaying irony sarcasm and general sillyness :tantrum:
so these icons are pretty handy!!
and thanks both for the input.

i will find out next week if i can get one made then to persuade sifu to teach me the applications of the techniques i have learnt so far.

matsu


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## geezer (May 30, 2008)

matsu said:


> JAV-again thanks for the input.
> ... being mildly impatient which i think even wing chun wont cure i will get it made anyway and i will ask mate to measure it to me etc have researched as much as i could for design sizes etc etc.
> --matsu



One thing that you already seem to be aware of...the proportions and angles of the dummy should be crafted with care, since they help train your technique. A "cheap" dummy  that is still of good quality would be a bargain indeed. It would be great if you would post a picture of it when you get it done!


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## graychuan (Jun 1, 2008)

Some basic trapping/kincking drills we practice (on the Muk Jong and with a partner) in the Woo Fai Ching system. 


Mock 1.2

Me and the 'Mocksmith'


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## mook jong man (Jun 2, 2008)

hello i would wait until you have trained for a couple more years in sil lum tao form and chum kiu form and have a good foundation. i think using the dummy at an early stage might cause bad habits eg clashing with the arms instead of using deflection etc. keep practicing chi sao and working on your stance and pivoting. i did wing chun for 10 years under sifu jim fung and i think it was only after about 6 years that i got shown the first half of the dummy form. save it for later.


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 2, 2008)

positioning,then speed,just do it!


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## matsu (Jun 3, 2008)

thanks for the input. i appreciate all the help and despite the many variations of thoughts they have all been helpful.

sifu has advised me that purely for positioning and selected strikes blocks it will prove fruitful.

so again qwk.... bang on !! and thanks for the advice.

matsu


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## qwksilver61 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yowsa!


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