# Tang soo do and weapons



## xpoc454

I'm relatively new to tang soo do and had a question about tang soo do and weapons.
It says on this forum that tang soo do includes weapon training.

In the past I asked my instructor about weapon training in tang soo do and he said that we did not do it.  The one lady in our class who did a staff had learned it from some tae kwan do she took.

Is weapon training a common branch of TSD? Is it up to the individual establishment?

I was kinding thinking no weapons made sense because of 'way of the hand'.


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## rmclain

Hello,

Probably you're asking about Moo Duk Kwan Tang Soo Do.  But, originally there were 5 schools termed either Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do in Korea following WWII.

I don't know about Moo Duk Kwan, but both the Ji Do Kwan and Chang Moo Kwan taught Bong Sul (staff techniques) as part of their curriculum.  

R. McLain


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## Fuzzy Foot

It does depend on the individual school and sometimes what organizations they do, or don't, belong to as to whether or not weapons are taught. But I would say I think it is more common now to see Tang Soo Do schools teaching weapons as part of their own curriculuim or incorporated into training from other arts in order to distinguish themselves and/or being able to offer students variety in their training.


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## xpoc454

If I remember right, our symbol on the wall is :
Tang soo do/Moo Duk Kwan
If that helps.


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## tsdclaflin

We do staffs and knife forms for rank promotion.

Optionally, we do stick fighting (added, not TSD), nunchaku, and kamas.

Sword form is introduced at E Dan (2nd degree black belt).


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

In general, Korean Karate systems did not teach any weapons in their curriculum in the beginning. These systems began to adopt weapons into their curriculum over the past 20 years due to the necessity to keep up with the _(Japanese, Okinawa and Chinese)_ Joness. 

The problems that have arisen from this adoption of weapon from other systems is that the foundation of the weapons training is missing. When I watch the vast majority of Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do practitioners performing Bo/Bong Kata/Hyung I have to refer to what they are doing as *Kicho-Hyung with a stick and a kick *because all that they are doing is just that!!! An H of I pattern form with some lame techniques and a kick here and there

As a practitioner that has been raised in Okinawan and Japanese martial arts as well as in Tang Soo Do, I can tell you that the stances that are used in traditional Okinawan Bo kata are different then the Tang Soo Do Chun Gul Jahsee (Front stance), because you need to work with a posture that allows you to move with the weapon in a smooth fashion. The front stance keeps the Bo off of your own center, and to your side, making it, for the most part, ineffective. I have several black belts training with me who came to me from the ITF (C.S. Kims organization). They learned Bong Hyung with ITF, and when I taught them Toko Mini No Koon (the first Bo kata in the Isshinryu System), with all of the proper stances and hand positions they couldnt get over how much more effective the techniques were. 

When you are training with a weapon, you arent supposed to be using all kinds of fancy kicks, or letting go of the weapon to do some unrelated hand technique in the middle of the WEAPONS Hyung/Kata You should be training and demonstrating the techniques of the weapon in hand

I have seen many practitioners pick up Kamas, Nunchuks, Tonfas and Bos, as well as Katanas and other assorted weapons that were never a part of their systems original history and present what they called a Hyung/Kata with their weapon of choice in tournaments. It is embarrassing to see what they will come up with I was at a tournament a couple of months ago where a 2nd Dan from a local Tang Soo Do school stepped into the ring with a pair of Nunchuks and proceeded to move from side to side, holding his Nunchuks almost by the strings and twirled them around like a baton twirler in a high school marching band. The sad part of it was that he placed 1st in his division and we had to see him do it again for the weapons grand championship. 

When I was competing in the 70s, we had to present our weapons to the center referee. He/she would inspect them to see if they were really a weapon or just a look-a-like. If the weapon wasnt real, we could not compete with it. If we demonstrated movements that could not be used in a real fight, we would receive extremely low scores Today, competitors go out on the floor with balsawood Bos and twirl them around with NO-Martial integrity at all, and think that they did something If you want to learn how to use a specific weapon, find an instructor who has been trained extensively in the use of that weapon and have him/her teach it to you. Keep in mind that you have to establish an understanding of the systems principles, concepts and philosophies of movement in order to perform with that weapon. It isnt enough to memorize the sequence of moves, and use improper stances and body mechanics. You must take on the character of the system in order to do it justice. 


Your thoughts



Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise

Master Jay S. Penfil said:
			
		

> In general, Korean Karate systems did not teach any weapons in their curriculum in the beginning. These systems began to adopt weapons into their curriculum over the past 20 years due to the necessity to keep up with the _(Japanese, Okinawa and Chinese)_ Joness.
> 
> The problems that have arisen from this adoption of weapon from other systems is that the foundation of the weapons training is missing. When I watch the vast majority of Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do practitioners performing Bo/Bong Kata/Hyung I have to refer to what they are doing as *Kicho-Hyung with a stick and a kick *because all that they are doing is just that!!! An H of I pattern form with some lame techniques and a kick here and there
> 
> As a practitioner that has been raised in Okinawan and Japanese martial arts as well as in Tang Soo Do, I can tell you that the stances that are used in traditional Okinawan Bo kata are different then the Tang Soo Do Chun Gul Jahsee (Front stance), because you need to work with a posture that allows you to move with the weapon in a smooth fashion. The front stance keeps the Bo off of your own center, and to your side, making it, for the most part, ineffective. I have several black belts training with me who came to me from the ITF (C.S. Kims organization). They learned Bong Hyung with ITF, and when I taught them Toko Mini No Koon (the first Bo kata in the Isshinryu System), with all of the proper stances and hand positions they couldnt get over how much more effective the techniques were.
> 
> When you are training with a weapon, you arent supposed to be using all kinds of fancy kicks, or letting go of the weapon to do some unrelated hand technique in the middle of the WEAPONS Hyung/Kata You should be training and demonstrating the techniques of the weapon in hand
> 
> I have seen many practitioners pick up Kamas, Nunchuks, Tonfas and Bos, as well as Katanas and other assorted weapons that were never a part of their systems original history and present what they called a Hyung/Kata with their weapon of choice in tournaments. It is embarrassing to see what they will come up with I was at a tournament a couple of months ago where a 2nd Dan from a local Tang Soo Do school stepped into the ring with a pair of Nunchuks and proceeded to move from side to side, holding his Nunchuks almost by the strings and twirled them around like a baton twirler in a high school marching band. The sad part of it was that he placed 1st in his division and we had to see him do it again for the weapons grand championship.
> 
> When I was competing in the 70s, we had to present our weapons to the center referee. He/she would inspect them to see if they were really a weapon or just a look-a-like. If the weapon wasnt real, we could not compete with it. If we demonstrated movements that could not be used in a real fight, we would receive extremely low scores Today, competitors go out on the floor with balsawood Bos and twirl them around with NO-Martial integrity at all, and think that they did something If you want to learn how to use a specific weapon, find an instructor who has been trained extensively in the use of that weapon and have him/her teach it to you. Keep in mind that you have to establish an understanding of the systems principles, concepts and philosophies of movement in order to perform with that weapon. It isnt enough to memorize the sequence of moves, and use improper stances and body mechanics. You must take on the character of the system in order to do it justice.
> 
> 
> Your thoughts
> 
> 
> 
> Yours in Tang Soo Do,
> 
> 
> Master Jay S. Penfil
> 
> 
> TANG SOO!!!


 
Nice post!

Most Tang Soo Do practitioner's that I know have trained with the staff (Bong Sool).

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## xpoc454

In my opinion, weapon training would be fun but not very useful.  Most of the weapons you don't carry around with you in case some attacks you. 

Others are I believe actually illegal in some form to carry in public.
Anyone know the legality of carrying many of the weapons you can train?


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## Makalakumu

Master Jay S. Penfil said:
			
		

> In general, Korean Karate systems did not teach any weapons in their curriculum in the beginning. These systems began to adopt weapons into their curriculum over the past 20 years due to the necessity to keep up with the _(Japanese, Okinawa and Chinese)_ Joness.
> 
> The problems that have arisen from this adoption of weapon from other systems is that the foundation of the weapons training is missing. When I watch the vast majority of Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do practitioners performing Bo/Bong Kata/Hyung I have to refer to what they are doing as *Kicho-Hyung with a stick and a kick *because all that they are doing is just that!!! An H of I pattern form with some lame techniques and a kick here and there
> 
> As a practitioner that has been raised in Okinawan and Japanese martial arts as well as in Tang Soo Do, I can tell you that the stances that are used in traditional Okinawan Bo kata are different then the Tang Soo Do Chun Gul Jahsee (Front stance), because you need to work with a posture that allows you to move with the weapon in a smooth fashion. The front stance keeps the Bo off of your own center, and to your side, making it, for the most part, ineffective. I have several black belts training with me who came to me from the ITF (C.S. Kims organization). They learned Bong Hyung with ITF, and when I taught them Toko Mini No Koon (the first Bo kata in the Isshinryu System), with all of the proper stances and hand positions they couldnt get over how much more effective the techniques were.
> 
> When you are training with a weapon, you arent supposed to be using all kinds of fancy kicks, or letting go of the weapon to do some unrelated hand technique in the middle of the WEAPONS Hyung/Kata You should be training and demonstrating the techniques of the weapon in hand
> 
> I have seen many practitioners pick up Kamas, Nunchuks, Tonfas and Bos, as well as Katanas and other assorted weapons that were never a part of their systems original history and present what they called a Hyung/Kata with their weapon of choice in tournaments. It is embarrassing to see what they will come up with I was at a tournament a couple of months ago where a 2nd Dan from a local Tang Soo Do school stepped into the ring with a pair of Nunchuks and proceeded to move from side to side, holding his Nunchuks almost by the strings and twirled them around like a baton twirler in a high school marching band. The sad part of it was that he placed 1st in his division and we had to see him do it again for the weapons grand championship.
> 
> When I was competing in the 70s, we had to present our weapons to the center referee. He/she would inspect them to see if they were really a weapon or just a look-a-like. If the weapon wasnt real, we could not compete with it. If we demonstrated movements that could not be used in a real fight, we would receive extremely low scores Today, competitors go out on the floor with balsawood Bos and twirl them around with NO-Martial integrity at all, and think that they did something If you want to learn how to use a specific weapon, find an instructor who has been trained extensively in the use of that weapon and have him/her teach it to you. Keep in mind that you have to establish an understanding of the systems principles, concepts and philosophies of movement in order to perform with that weapon. It isnt enough to memorize the sequence of moves, and use improper stances and body mechanics. You must take on the character of the system in order to do it justice.
> 
> 
> Your thoughts
> 
> 
> 
> Yours in Tang Soo Do,
> 
> 
> Master Jay S. Penfil
> 
> 
> TANG SOO!!!


 
Master Penfil

In so many words, you just summed up what I was feeling internally about the weapons forms in TSD.  I have trained in FMA for many years and I feel that the only weapons I really know, even a little, are the stick, knife and cane.  

Maybe it is my own martial arts snobbery, but I feel that if I'm going to learn a form, I would like to learn something that has been "battle tested" and not something that is completely contrived in order to "win" a tournament.  

When you come out to Superior in November, I would very much like to show you the staff form I learned in Tai Chi and if we can find the time, I'd like to at least see the beginning staff form from Isshin Ryu.  

upnorthkyosa


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## pstarr

Very good post!  Actually, Choi Hong Hi's original method of Taekwondo was designed to be taught to the military and included bayonet drills.


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## rmclain

Jido Kwan founder Yoon Ui-byung (Yoon Kwe-byung) learned Bong sul (Bo jutsu) from Toyama Kanken in Japan, as did Yoon Byung-in (YMCA Kwon Bop Bu - which later became Changmoo-Kwan & Kangduk-Won).

In fact, Yoon Ui-byung (Yoon Kwe-byung) published a book on staff techniques and forms in Japan around 1947. - Most Jido-Kwan people nowadays don't even know about that.

Both he and Yoon Byung-in taught staff forms and techniques in Korea when they opened their schools in the late 1940's and early 1950's.

R. McLain


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## EmperorOfKentukki

Contrary to what is sometimes told, the MDK did have weapons forms.  Unfortunately, you had to be Master level...and connected to the inner circle to get taught them.  But I know for fact (because I witnessed it) that the weapons forms included a Fan form and a Broadsword form (both of Chinese origin).

JH


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## Makalakumu

EmperorOfKentukki said:
			
		

> Contrary to what is sometimes told, the MDK did have weapons forms. Unfortunately, you had to be Master level...and connected to the inner circle to get taught them. But I know for fact (because I witnessed it) that the weapons forms included a Fan form and a Broadsword form (both of Chinese origin).
> 
> JH


 
Master Hancock

Five years ago, I learned a tai chi sword form and just now, I am learning the 13 drills that help one put the moves in the form into practice.  This deeper knowledge of the form really surprised me in many ways and I feel that I am developing sensitivity with my weapon that just practicing the form would not give me.  

In my experience in the MDK, with all of the weapon's forms that I have seen people practice, no one, but my teacher has demonstrated deeper knowledge of the weapon or the form.  And my teacher is getting most of this from training in FMA.  

When you trained in the MDK in Korea, were the weapon basics and fundamental drills that are part of the deeper aspects of the forms practiced?  And if so, I have to wonder why this has been apparently discontinued in some lineages...like mine?

upnorthkyosa


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## EmperorOfKentukki

No.  Weapons were not taught at all.  As I mentioned, you had to be a Kodanja just to get taught weapons.  It was selective and based upon connections you had.  It was not part of the curriculum at all.

But what you described is the essence of all forms...weapon or empty hand.  A form is not functional until you grasp the root of the form.  The concept behind the technique so to speak.  This is something that takes years...and only with concentrated, deliberate study will it ever happen.  And just so...you must take the form apart, and put it back together again.  However, this is not merely a dissection of technique....but rather a delving into the principles at work in the application.  Someone who has mastered a form knows there is always more going on in the movement than what is revealed at the surface.  This is why Masters can watch a form and find appreciation in the performance, while the novice is bored by viewing it and the lay person finds it lacks interest whatsoever.  You have to look with better eyes.  As one grows in experience....you simply know this.  Those that don't see the function in form...simply haven't grown enough.  They need more time.    

Is this your experience too?!

JH


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## Makalakumu

EmperorOfKentukki said:
			
		

> No. Weapons were not taught at all. As I mentioned, you had to be a Kodanja just to get taught weapons. It was selective and based upon connections you had. It was not part of the curriculum at all.


 
That is interesting, because I have yet to even see any of the highest ranking people in my lineage practice a weapons hyung.  I wonder if it is still like that?



> But what you described is the essence of all forms...weapon or empty hand. A form is not functional until you grasp the root of the form. The concept behind the technique so to speak. This is something that takes years...and only with concentrated, deliberate study will it ever happen. And just so...you must take the form apart, and put it back together again. However, this is not merely a dissection of technique....but rather a delving into the principles at work in the application. Someone who has mastered a form knows there is always more going on in the movement than what is revealed at the surface. This is why Masters can watch a form and find appreciation in the performance, while the novice is bored by viewing it and the lay person finds it lacks interest whatsoever. You have to look with better eyes. As one grows in experience....you simply know this. Those that don't see the function in form...simply haven't grown enough. They need more time.
> 
> Is this your experience too?!
> 
> JH


 
Yes and no.  The forms that my teacher taught us were taught after all of the background knowledge that needed to be covered in order to understand them was taught.  These forms did not come from Tang Soo Do, however.


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## Jimi

I have no issue with someone competing with a weapon in a tournament if that weapon is within their systems curriculum. It's when someone who is from a system that it's world headquarters does not examine weapons tech's to earn any Dan level, yet their students demo, Nunchaku, Sai, Tonfa, Kama and their form shows no knowledge or understanding of the weapon, that I get upset. My first instructor Sensei Randy Wozin was a Black Belt in both Okinawan & Korean systems, and we learned first Tonfa, then, Nunchaku then Sai then Kama. He won the Eact Coast Regional Championship at the Capital Center near DC in 1976 with a double Nunchaku form. We had to learn the function of each Okinawan weapon VS a Shinai. Much of what I see in competition nowa days would make him roll over in his grave. I do not like seeing someone start their form with a KIAI and a back flip, then spin a weapon without regard for it's application, just the flash between jump spin kicks. Weapons should be drilled in application vs another training weapon, then with a good foundation and a form with some lineage (Not something a 19yr old made up) should be demo'd to show the history and function of that weapon. 2 of my instructors who have passed away are yelling from the grave, "Stop killing my art!" If what I have described does not relate to you and your association and you have lineage to such weapons forms, keep up the good work. If you are an XMA practioner, put the weapon down and give me 50 knuckle push-ups. LOL. I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to improper weapons demo's. Thanks for letting me rant. PEACE


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## ajs1976

Master Jay S. Penfil said:
			
		

> I have several black belts training with me who came to me from the ITF (C.S. Kims organization). They learned Bong Hyung with ITF, and when I taught them Toko Mini No Koon (the first Bo kata in the Isshinryu System), with all of the proper stances and hand positions they couldnt get over how much more effective the techniques were.



Master Penfil,

Do you know of only online videos of these ITF Bong Hyungs?  My instructor taught us a basic form I while ago.  When I asked him where it came from he said the ITF, and I assumed he meant the Tae Kwon Do group, bought he could have meant CS Kim's group.

Thanks.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

Hi Andy,
It is my understanding that Chun Jae Nim C.S. Kim designed the Bong Hyung taught by the ITF himself. 

The ITF students here in Michigan also practice Competition Bong Hyung that was designed by SBN Richard Collins, Jr.

Master Collins is currently a 6th Dan in the ITF, and from what I understand, he has the largest ITF school system in existence. You can find him at: mastercollins.com 

I have seen Master Collins Bong Hyungs demonstrated by students from his PKSA organization. They are better then most Bong Hyung that I have seen from Korean organizations, but still lack proper stances for Bong/Bo technique, and the hand positions on many of the techniques are also incorrect for Bong/Bo Hyung. 

They look good, and are exciting to watch, if you dont have an education in Okinawan Bo basics and kata. When you have the understanding of the weapon that I have been given by my Okinawan instructors, it opens your eyes immediately, and makes perfect sense.

I have been to Pittsburgh twice in the past 18 months to teach seminars, and will probably be there again at some point in the next year. If you are interested in coming to my seminars, contact me directly and I will see to it that you are added to my emailing list. 

As always, everyone is welcome to my seminars regardless of organization affiliation, and we do not recruit you are a member of the ITF, and we respect your being as such, and support your loyalty to your organization.


I can be reached at:

248-561-5700 (cell)
masterjayspenfil@yahoo.com



Yours in Tang Soo Do


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## ajs1976

Master Penfil,

Thanks for the information.


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