# Is Anything Less than 103 Forms in Yang Style Considered Watered Down and Less Martial?



## jurat13 (Aug 21, 2007)

Hi Everyone,

Please forgive me if I am not using the precise Tai Chi terminology in the question(s) in my post.  I am new to learning Tai Chi lingo, etc, nevertheless, I hope you can follow what I am trying to ask. 

I am excited about visiting what I believe to be a reputable martial applications Tai Chi school this weekend.  The school teaches a variety of Internal Arts.  But the focus of my question today is based on their Yang-style Tai Chi instruction.  

The school that I will visit this weekend teaches less that 103 forms.  Their website reads:  "Yang Style, the most popular style of Tai Chi, is taught using the large frame version of the standard 88-movement set. Other Yang Style forms such as the Yang Chen Fu Form, the 24 Yang Short Form and the 32 Movement Sword Form are also taught."

I am looking for legitimate long form martial applications Tai Chi. 

Here's my long winded question:

For one to learn legitimate, non-wushu, non-competition, non-watered down, non-modified, martial applications Yang style Tai Chi; must it be 103 forms and no less?

Okay that's complicated.  How about this...  The long form of Yang style Tai Chi has 103 forms, correct?  If a Yang style school teaches less that 103 forms, is it considered watered down, and as a result less martial? 

*Basically is Yang watered down if it has less than 103 forms; and, as a result less martial?*

Thanks for your help.  I know that I could have worded this question better.

Best regards,

Walter Boyd


----------



## jurat13 (Aug 21, 2007)

Well I was definitely using the wrong terminology.  I should have been asking my question in terms of large, medium, small, and old frame.  

But anyways, I may have answered my own question a little bit.  I went to http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/about/study/#practical-01, and found the following info:

"The birthplace of Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan is Hebei Province, Yongnian County. About 200 years ago, Yang LuChan went to Beijing to teach the Emperor's Family. People would watch and wanted to learn from him. His movements were smooth, slow and even. As it evolved, Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan has had different frames. The original frame style is called the Old Frame. Then came the Small, Middle or Medium Frame and last the Large Frame. The Frame that is practiced now is the Large Frame which we call the "Traditional, 85, 103, and 108 Form." Even though the counting is different, the movements are the same."

So it looks like even if the school that I plan to visit teaches the standard 88 movement set, then it is still deemed traditional long frame?

Thanks,

Walter


----------



## grydth (Aug 21, 2007)

I cannot account for what anyone else considers, but I respect the various martial arts and differing forms of Tai Chi. I am inherently suspicious of anyone who claims their way is the only "martial" art, and who disparages others.

I studied the Cheng Man Ching Yang derivative.... there was plenty of application training after the first year. 

Not only style, but instructor may make a difference. For a long period many sifu in America strayed away from martial applications. I sense a reversal in that. Also, I sense a fading of intolerance.

To me, Tai Chi is a buffet.... select the style and instructor you wish and: Bon Appetite!   I may choose something different, and that's fine.


----------



## jurat13 (Aug 21, 2007)

Thanks for the post grydth!

I believe I have a better understanding of the counting of the forms and movements now.

I spoke with someone from the website that I mentioned above about whether or not having 103 forms means the style is watered down and less martial.  He mentioned that some forms are combined, that's why there may be less than 103, or 108 forms, and may instead have 88, or 85 forms.

In conclusion, having 88 or 85 forms does not mean the Tai Chi is watered down, etc.  Some forms may just be combined.

Thanks,

Walter


----------



## grydth (Aug 21, 2007)

Some places also have very short forms.... these are for the purposes of  teaching basic concepts to beginners; others are for advanced folks who may be short of either work out time or space.

A critic could correctly say these are "watered down"....but...As long as the sifu also teaches the longer forms, I believe these short forms serve useful purposes.


----------



## Taijiguy (Aug 21, 2007)

Just so you know, the 88 move form is a version of the Yang taiji quan long form created by Li Tian Ji.  He was head of the committee that created the 24 form.  And though he was an excellent martial artist, and his students that I've met/seen are extremely skilled, some consider the 88 form a type of form plagiarism as it's apparently very very close to the traditional Yang Cheng Fu long form, and often mistaken as the long form (In the mainland 88 is Li Tian Ji's form, and 85 is generally the YCF long form).  In general, the forms themselves are not what makes the taiji quan watered down (they all use pretty much the same techniques) but it's the quality of the additional training that waters things down (standing meditation, qigong, push hands, san shou aka free fighting, etc.).  Cheng Man Ching's taiji quan is a good example.  He developed a more concise short form.  Some of the best "martial" taiji schools teach the CMC form, and some of the most watered down garbage taiji schools also teach CMC form.  24 form is the same way... many legit high quality schools use it to introduce beginners to taiji quan, but it's also widely spread as health only (of varying quality) all over the world.


----------



## pete (Aug 22, 2007)

think about the term "watering down".... then, think about the taoist approach to tai chi chuan.  

ok, "watering down", refers to ADDING non-essential or FILLER to a product to make it appear to be BIGGER or MORE than what really exists. 

Think of your teenage years hitting the parent's liquor cabinet, (come on.. we all done it and our kids are doing it to us~). after embibing, you'd ADD water to the bottle to make it APPEAR to have more than what is really there (in terms of the booze, that is)

If you're too puritanical for that, think of the beef content of a steak vs meatloaf.  

Taoist philosophy teaches us to SIMPLIFY by removing what is NONESSENTIAL. Masters that have who have restructured forms to remove WHAT THEY FELT TO BE non-essential, have not watered down, but have followed taoist tradition. If, in doing so, they've also removed what may be ESSENTIAL, then there could be a different problem resulting in a style that is no longer in BALANCE (another key ingredient of tai chi chuan).

my opinion is that the form(s) are text books for the art, not that they must contain ALL information, but should contain ESSENTIAL information that one can use to expand upon during actual USAGE... whether it be Martial, Energetic, Meditative, Physical, Health-related, etc.

therefore the art also requires, workbooks, notebooks, refernce materials, scratch paper, all in addition to the Textbook Form.  These are the Qigongs, Push Hands, Application drills, Exercises and Drills, Freestyle, Conditioning, etc. so on and so forth. 

These activities that support the essence of the art are needed for a complete practice.  However, similar activities that DO NOT SUPPORT the essence of the art may be considered non-essential activities, filler, and are watering down the art.


----------



## jurat13 (Aug 22, 2007)

Taijiguy and Pete I appreciate your very informative posts.

Thank you,

Walter


----------



## grappling_mandala (Sep 8, 2007)

Cheng Man Ching simplified the Yang Cheng Fu long form into the 37. 

There is something truthful to note in the longform structure (108). 

The connective and combination movements found in the first section, compounds and angles in the second, and smaller internal circles and footwork diagrams in the 3rd, this forms a cohesive training program that allows the student of the 108 to draw upon the form, it's overall structure and biomechanics to not lose track of a day here or there, but to continue to cultivate their art. When other people are around then push hands and two person drills are important. When others arn't around, how's snake creeps down lately? Hows threading the pearls? Hows wuji? 

When the many movements of a form, become one move, then you begin to see the futility in arguing length and size, the real benifits come from daily practice, and looking for the truth in any movement. 

Just my .03c

GM


----------

