# I stand alone?



## Makalakumu (Nov 3, 2004)

I Stand Alone?

I think that I have always loved my country.  

God knows, I have had reason enough to hate it sometimes.  As a child, I remember scrounging aluminum cans in the ditch to earn money to buy clothing.  I remember poaching geese in the park to put food on the table.  I remember my father, a strong and wonderful man, as he sunk into illness and the medical bills eventually buried my family.  

Most of all, I remember burying three children on Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota.  They lived in cardboard boxes with their native family and the temperature got too cold that night.  We had to use picks to break the ground that evening.  Iron squeals horribly in frozen earth.  

And that sound calls across the annals of time to remind me where I came from.  

I think that I have always loved my country.  I worked hard to survive and then I somehow learned to live.  None of it would have been possible, though, without the help of others.  And I am keenly aware of all of those people who have helped me become who I am.  Family, Church, School, and the Government formed a loose web that I had the wherewithal to grab as I fell.  I climbed that web to get where I am.

Therefore, I think that I know how to survive.  I know how to live my life and get what I want.  Thank God I live in a country where this is possible.

Yet, as an Eagle Scout, I learned something more then mere survival was expected out of me as an American.  There are three citizenship merit badges and a service project required to become an Eagle Scout.  Therefore, every Eagle learns how to influence a community through politics and personally.  I dont know what it was, but I intrinsically knew the limits of my influence.  

My service project was a trout stream rehabilitation program.  With my own two hands, I cleaned up four miles of stream near my home to make it a better habitat.  Yet, my hands would never be small enough to grab the pollution out of the water that killed the trout we stocked.  And by myself, I did not have the power to make the polluters stop dumping their waste.  

Moreover, I can dedicate my life to service and by myself, I will not have the power to do certain things.  I will not be able to help every child put food on their tables.  I will not be able to help children get the clothes they need without having to dig through the refuse of the upper classes.  I will not be able to help every family that goes bankrupt because of medical bills.  And I will most certainly not be able to stop every child from freezing to death in the cold Vernichtung wastes in which our country damned them.

Everytime I vote, I keep this in my mind and I try to vote with the people who really care about strengthening the social net so that it catches people who are not experiencing the American Dream.  I dont think that we need to lift people up and abolish hard work.  I grew into what I am because of the hard work I did.  Yet, I dont think that we need to let people starve and freeze to death in this country.  Just as I dont think its right to poison the undesireables to make a quick buck.  

Alas, it was not the day I wanted it to be.

This election is now over.  The Opportunity Society looms.  What does it mean?  Certainly not the gloom and doom many chiliasts on the far left claim.  Im going to try to be more optimistic then that.  In the next four years, Ill get to keep more of my money.  Ill get to invest in a health savings account.  Ill get to put some of my social security withholdings into an account for my personal retirement.  I may even get to make a few more decisions regarding things in my life that I didnt know I could make decisions about.  And many of these decisions might bring some benefit to my family.  

My selfishness may very well mirror half the country.  Shame on them for putting their own needs above those of their country.  Shame of them for forgetting the sacrifices that build us all.  Shame on them for forgetting what values America was truly built upon.  Shame on me lashing out in my disappointment.  Im only human, though.

In the end, my past has taught me how to take care of myself very wellwith a little help.  President Bush will bring a version of the American Dream in aversion to another.  Yet, I think that I have always loved my country, because Ive always known it wasnt just about me.  

Therefore, for the next four years, Ill stand alone.  Ill make my stand and do what I can to organize enough people to make America better for others.  Ill accept the losses that I do not have the power to change and Ill keep in my heart the will to shrug off the wall of sleep selfishness breeds.  My dreams are filled with visions of my American brothers and sisters standing up and sacrificing to make this country better.

I think that Ill always love my country even when Im forced to stand alone.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 3, 2004)

Upnorth - you do not stand alone. There will always be people like you who have fought, scratched, dug. They give a little - some give a lot - because they know.

 As a girl scout leader, I am fully committed to the Girl Scout Law which includes "make the world a better place" and "use resources wisely" and "respect myself and others." Guiding these girls in making decisions and coordinating their service projects and researched their merit badges gives me a strong sense of purpose. Seeing the satisfaction on these girls' faces rings that bell inside of me - the one that sings of making the difference for one person for one day or one meal or one coat or one night or one job or one haircut. We have a local breakfast for the homeless on Christmas morning which was started by a Girl Scout Gold Award project (eqivalent of Eagle Scout). The girl found a way to make this happen not once, but each year. Yes, it is one meal. Yes, it is only one day out of the year. But it is more than nothing. It is more than my tax break. It is more than the gas I need to drive for a week. It is more than my giving my apple to the guy on the corner who is thinner than a supermodel.

 But if you stand alone in your community, thank heaven your community has you. The Lord gives broad shoulders to the strong - but the price is the tender heart.

 When I moved 1,000 miles north, my first Christmas in Oregon was indeed a lean one. Christmas dinner was going to be peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and there were no dollar stores then, so there were going to be no presents. A local society of widowed and widowered well-off citizens heard about me from a neighbor and made my two children their Christmas Family. The kind gentlemen took us toy shopping and he looked at me squarely and said, "The rule is they get whatever they want, as much as they want, regardless of your morals and limitations." So I watched as my two children piled the basket full and stopped when they felt they had rightly picked out enough. Then, he bought us a tree and ornaments and food. I had never been the recipient of such a gift in my life and I will truly never forget it. He told me then that I would not be able to send him a thank-you note nor call him or get in touch with him in any way, but that I must promise that if I ever had spare, to give to someone else in need - even if I only had a nickel to spare.

 And so I do. If I'm starving and I've just gotten a veggie sub from a sandwich shop and I see the homeless persons who frequent our neighborhood, they get the sub. If I've got an extra jacket in the car I really don't need and it's cold - they get it. If I have a quarter left over from my purchases, it goes in the donation tin.

 I think each well-intentioned deed carries with it the energy of ten ill-intentioned deeds.  Perhaps, if we work really hard, we can negate much of what has happened - but we must not stop and we must not stand alone.

 We must care for our brothers and sisters - we are each others keepers. We were not placed on this planet alone - we are all here together and this cannot work if we judge, reject, deny each other.  Can our meager efforts alone make the difference?

  Kyo Sa Nim ...

  ... may I stand with you?


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Kyo Sa Nim... may I stand with you?



Yes, you may.

I believe that we all need to work to make America better for _everyone_.  

I wish there were more people who wanted this...In the meantime, we'll do what we can changing things a little at a time.  Yet, I don't think that our efforts can match the combined effort of this entire nation working for this goal.

That is a dream of mine.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 4, 2004)

I believe we both want similar for this country.  While we sometimes are on different ends, I think we will often find ourselves standing back to back fighting the good fight.  We must bring more people into the fight, there is power in numbers.  

You'll never stand alone.


----------



## someguy (Nov 4, 2004)

You wrote to much for me to stand with you. :uhyeah: 
I'm just kidding.
Charity=good


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Nov 4, 2004)

upnorth, shesulsa....

Others of us make that attempt too, although perhaps not as gracefully and perhaps there are days when I fail.   But no, you don't stand alone.


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 4, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Others of us make that attempt too, although perhaps not as gracefully and perhaps there are days when I fail. But no, you don't stand alone.


 Feisty - thanks for the compliment, but - no grace needed. I guess I don't really think of what I do as being graceful - I just try to pay it back and pay it forward.

 And I don't think anyone who makes a sincere effort fails. I've read just about all of your posts and I think I can say what your time and energy contraints place on you now will dissipate later and you are making incredible gains on the part of the world just be being who you are. You are intelligent, caring, hard-working and a giving person, I can tell.

  Thanks for being here, giving all you give, doing all you do and being who you are.

  OOOOO - this is turning into a feel-good thread!  Warm fuzzies all around!


----------



## Zepp (Nov 5, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I wish there were more people who wanted this...In the meantime, we'll do what we can changing things a little at a time.  Yet, I don't think that our efforts can match the combined effort of this entire nation working for this goal.
> 
> That is a dream of mine.



If you're tallying those standing with you, count me as well.  While I don't have that much faith in our society, I don't believe in giving up on it either.  Messages like yours give me more hope.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> OOOOO - this is turning into a feel-good thread!  Warm fuzzies all around!



I think that all progressives could use a few hugs after Tuesday.


----------



## gmunoz (Nov 5, 2004)

If we could only find a way to make this attitude contagious...  We were not created to stand alone.  I've learned the with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I can be alone, but not lonely.  

We need to little by little spread this message of unity.  It's sad to have to see things like 9/11 bring us together.  It should not have to be this way...


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

Upnorthkyosa,

I am not sure why you feel the way you feel.

Are you presuming that the entire 51% of the country who voted for George Bush ....

Are not poor or did not grow up poor? 
Did not have to work hard and strive and struggle to get an education and a good job?
That they don't love their country?
That they don't appreciate the sacrifices of the men and women who made this country great?
That they won't help the hungry, the homeless, the cold?

I think I can safely reassure you that it is not so. If you follow the teachings of Christ, then you are called to action. 
http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Matthew+25%3A+34+-+46&section=0&version=nrs&new=1&oq=&NavBook=mt&NavGo=25&NavCurrentChapter=25

Don't give up hope.
Melissa


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I am not sure why you feel the way you feel.



President Bush has a shopping cart and he picks and chooses among the moral values he wishes to follow....



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Are you presuming that the entire 51% of the country who voted for George Bush ....



...are just like him, pushing the same cart.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Are not poor or did not grow up poor?



Perhaps a fraction of the 51% did grow up poor, but the vast majority of the poorest in this country vote democratic because they know that the current President's American Dream doesn't include them.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Did not have to work hard and strive and struggle to get an education and a good job?



Most of the 51% grew up with privileges they don't even realize they had.  For instance, 88% of Bush voters are white.  So, in general, they did not have to work as hard or struggle as much to get a good job or get an education.  If they did, then its a safe bet they were part of the 49%.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> That they don't love their country?



I have no doubt that the 51% love there country.  It's why they voted.  There is a difference though.  Many in that 51% were voting to protect a particular view or a pile of resources at the expense of others.  As long as the country is good for them, great!.  

I prefer to work to make this place better for everyone...



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> That they don't appreciate the sacrifices of the men and women who made this country great?



If one sacrificed in the military, then yes.  

If one sacrifice in other civil service, doubtful.  If one served in an organization that works to protect peoples safety, increase peoples power, and raise a families standard of living...never.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> That they won't help the hungry, the homeless, the cold?



Despite all of the talk about giving to charity, rarely does this occur.  Charities across the country closing up shop because they have nothing left to give.  So, no, I don't think that many in that 51% will do much to actually help people who are hungry, homeless, or cold.  

I've put the pick in the dirt despite all the empty moral high talk and that is what makes me feel most bitter about last tuesday.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I think I can safely reassure you that it is not so. If you follow the teachings of Christ, then you are called to action.



On this, I agree with you 100%.  If you believe in Jesus Christ, then you are called to action.  The scriptures are clear.  Yet, so few among the Christian Right actually put their money where their mouths are.  When I look around at the people who actually put their hands into this stinking capitalist mess, I'm looking at people who number among the 49%.  I've been on mission trips to the third world outside our country and within and the vast majority know that Jesus is a Liberal.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Don't give up hope.



I won't give up hope.  I never do.  Yet it has been clearly demonstrated by the candidates rhetoric and by debates on this board that their was a clear moral choice in this election.  In my opinion, 49% made that choice.  51% did not.  

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is a popular slogan chanted on the Right.  It means that if you wish to help someone you may, if you don't, then you don't.  It means means if you want to protect the environment, then you may, if you don't, then you don't.  It means if you want to work for peace, then you may, if you don't, then you don't....

There is something filthy about the above that the American People are going to have to confront someday...

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

Must be tough. From all the time Ive spent on this forum I was starting to feel that I was way out of touch with the popular political viewpoint....


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> If one sacrificed in the military, then yes.
> 
> If one sacrifice in other civil service, doubtful. If one served in an organization that works to protect peoples safety, increase peoples power, and raise a families standard of living...never.


What is that supposed to mean...as I served in the military and am an LEO ("If one served in an organization that works to protect peoples safety"), I dont know to take this.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is that supposed to mean...as I served in the military and am an LEO ("If one served in an organization that works to protect peoples safety"), I dont know to take this.



In the days of "homeland security" masses of firefighters and LEOs are *losing * their jobs.  Also, my comment, without truncation, implies unions.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Must be tough. From all the time Ive spent on this forum I was starting to feel that I was way out of touch with the popular political viewpoint....



If you lose 49% of your brain, does the majority matter anymore?  Perhaps it depends on how you cut it...

Tongue Firmly Planted in Cheek

upnorthkyosa


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

What is the "American Dream"? I always thought it was that our nation was a place where you could achieve greatness (or even just averageness which in this country is something) based on your own hard work. I am for helping the less fortunate. Nobody should starve, live on the street or die due to no medical insurance in this country. However I dont want to see the "American Dream" turned into "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to be free. And we'll give them a higher standard of living off the public dole." America is the land of opportunity if you take it.



> You see for me, America is an idea. It is a stage for transformation. I felt when I came to Iowa City from Calcutta that suddenly I could be a new person . . . What America offers me is romanticism and hope . . . Suddenly, I found myself in a country wheretheoretically, anywaymerit counts, where I could choose to discard that part of my history that I want, and invent a whole new history for myself. It's that capacity to dream and then try to pull it off, if you can.
> Bharati Mukeriee, novelist, in an interview with Bill Moyers, 1990
> 
> This is free ground. All the way from here to the Pacific Ocean. No man has to bow. No man born to royalty. Here we judge you by what you do, not by what your father was. Here you can be something. Heres a place to build a home. . . Its the idea that we all have value, you and me . . .
> ...


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What is the "American Dream"? I always thought it was that our nation was a place where you could achieve greatness (or even just averageness which in this country is something) based on your own hard work. I am for helping the less fortunate. Nobody should starve, live on the street or die due to no medical insurance in this country. However I dont want to see the "American Dream" turned into "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to be free. And we'll give them a higher standard of living off the public dole." America is the land of opportunity if you take it.



I am in 100% agreement with this sentiment, yet...



> America Can Do Better...
> 
> By Paul Wellstone
> 
> ...


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Perhaps a fraction of the 51% did grow up poor, but the vast majority of the poorest in this country vote democratic because they know that the current President's American Dream doesn't include them.
> 
> 
> Most of the 51% grew up with privileges they don't even realize they had. For instance, 88% of Bush voters are white. So, in general, they did not have to work as hard or struggle as much to get a good job or get an education. If they did, then its a safe bet they were part of the 49%.
> ...


I don't know how to insert typing in the middle of quotes.

a.  I can speak for my family.  We were definitely not poor but nor were we rich. I didn't buy clothes at second-hand stores (rich peoples' castoffs, I believe you called them) because I had my older sisters hand me downs to wear. Both of my parents worked. My first car was a 6 y.o Chevette when I was a college senior. After college and grad school, I owed $36,000 to the government in student loans   (this is 20 years ago, college was a lot cheaper)
   My siblings all have similar stories. Of the 6 of us, I know 3 voted Bush, one Kerry, and I am not sure about the other two.

B. In my state, Orange County had in 2002 a per capita income of about $21,000  .  Lake County same time had $26,000.  In 2004, Orange County voted for Bush 70/30. Lake County voted for Kerry 60/40.  Go figure. 

C. Regarding appreciating those who sacrifice for our country, see Tgace's response above

d.  Here is an interesting article about charitable giving.  I wonder if this had anything to do with Daschle's defeat?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20040324-091045-1698r

e. I have been on mission trips too (inside and outside the US) and I don't recall being asked if Jesus was a Republican or a Democrat.

Peace,
Melissa


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

Yes, one can always "do better". Do you believe Utopia can truly be achieved? Where we, as a nation apparently, differ, is in how we achieve "doing better". Who pay's for it, who recieves the benefits, how long do they keep them, whats attached to them (differing beliefs regarding issues like abortion, gay marriage etc..), what are we robbing from Peter to pay Paul so to speak. If you honestly believe that over 50% of the country says "$%^#& the less fortunate" I think you are wrong. They may be saying "Im being taxed to death already, how can I pay for more social programs and keep my own roof over my head."


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> If you lose 49% of your brain, does the majority matter anymore? Perhaps it depends on how you cut it...
> 
> Tongue Firmly Planted in Cheek
> 
> upnorthkyosa


Yeah, but that 1% more than yours makes all the difference.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> They may be saying "Im being taxed to death already, how can I pay for more social programs and keep my own roof over my head."



... which is understandable.  This is why we have to work to convince people how social programs help *everyone*, not just the very poorest, and how a properly regulated societal safety net makes everyone's lives better.  

And how a lack of it will eventually bring down all but the wealthiest.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I don't know how to insert typing in the middle of quotes.
> 
> a. I can speak for my family. We were definitely not poor but nor were we rich. I didn't buy clothes at second-hand stores (rich peoples' castoffs, I believe you called them) because I had my older sisters hand me downs to wear. Both of my parents worked. My first car was a 6 y.o Chevette when I was a college senior. After college and grad school, I owed $36,000 to the government in student loans (this is 20 years ago, college was a lot cheaper)
> My siblings all have similar stories. Of the 6 of us, I know 3 voted Bush, one Kerry, and I am not sure about the other two.


Same here. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Dad was constantly on the bubble of his company closing down (did after I moved out). Lay offs, home haircuts, reduced school lunches, hand me downs, scant x-mass'es, rural living, loaned my way through college, still never owned a new car. I owe, I owe so off to work (and second front jobs) I go.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> ... which is understandable. This is why we have to work to convince people how social programs help *everyone*, not just the very poorest, and how a properly regulated societal safety net makes everyone's lives better.
> 
> And how a lack of it will eventually bring down all but the wealthiest.


But I doubt I will see the ammout of money taken by the gvt. on my check stub get any less.....


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> But I doubt I will see the ammout of money taken by the gvt. on my check stub get any less.....



Maybe not.  But if you feel like you get your money's worth out of it (or more), maybe you'd feel better about that.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> ... which is understandable. This is why we have to work to convince people how social programs help *everyone*, not just the very poorest, and how a properly regulated societal safety net makes everyone's lives better.
> 
> And how a lack of it will eventually bring down all but the wealthiest.


It's that "properly regulated" part that scares me  :uhyeah: !
Who decides what is proper? And how is it regulated? Answer that to my satisfaction and I am behind you all the way.

Peace, 
Melissa


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I have been on mission trips too (inside and outside the US) and I don't recall being asked if Jesus was a Republican or a Democrat.



I'm sure you weren't.

Regardless of "party affiliation", though, the messages of compassion, love, sharing, and peace that Christ (and the figures of so many other religions) delivered would mark him as a "hippie" and a "liberal" nowadays.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Maybe not. But if you feel like you get your money's worth out of it (or more), maybe you'd feel better about that.


What programs are you referring to (in regards to the "average working man/woman")? Social Security? National Health Plan?


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> It's that "properly regulated" part that scares me  :uhyeah: !
> Who decides what is proper? And how is it regulated? Answer that to my satisfaction and I am behind you all the way.



This shouldn't be a difficult concept.  We live in a representative Republic; WE decide what is proper, and how these things are regulated.

Right now, many of us have been led to believe that the social safety net is not important; that it costs too much; that it is poorly managed; that it serves primarily the lazy.  This is a deliberate assault on centuries of progress by a limited few who wish to tear government down to its bare minimum necessity.  (If you don't believe me, I suggest you Google Grover Norquist, and learn more about his philosophies and his influence on the current administration).

We can have a society that benefits everyone if we choose to.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> What programs are you referring to (in regards to the "average working man/woman")? Social Security? National Health Plan?



Yep, and lots more.  Everything from roads and police and national defense to social security, a single-payer health plan, welfare, student loans, regulatory agencies to protect us from the worst impulses of some businesses and some people... the works.

There are a lot of things in the traditional left agenda that I don't agree with (like gun control, being anti-nuclear power, etc)... and there are extremist loons on the left, just like on the right.  Most people, though, are reasonable people that care about others, and I think we can work together to build a world where we all do better.  Where the best aspects of the building of individual wealth and general commonwealth are merged.

We have examples that can partially help us see the way... European countries that measure their success based on everyone's quality of life rather than on raw productivity or GDP, for instance.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I'm sure you weren't.
> 
> Regardless of "party affiliation", though, the messages of compassion, love, sharing, and peace that Christ (and the figures of so many other religions) delivered would mark him as a "hippie" and a "liberal" nowadays.


Hippie implies free love and acid trips to me.  Not something Jesus stood for.

Liberal? Like getting hummers in the White House?  Like being a skirt- chaser ala JFK? 

I am making generalizations now, which is what I originally accused upnorthkyosa of doing, which is why I objected to his post.

Please don't claim "fruits of the spirit" for either side, unless you preface your statements as opinions or generalizations.  

Peace, 
Melissa


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

I must admit that my job has soured me on on the "societal safety net". Ive lost count of the number of people I have dealt with who have gvt. benefit cards and food stamps in their pockets and drive thier cars home with steaks, plasma TV's and DVD's to thier gvt subsidized apartments with the free heat cranked up to "solar surface". Granted I do deal with a certain segment of society and there are plenty of people using the system as an "assist" (heck my first child was born on medicare and feed by WIC untill I got out of grad school). But the problem with government programs is that...well they're ran by governments.

How do we keep people from turning the "safety net" into a hammock?


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Yep, and lots more. Everything from roads and police and national defense to social security, a single-payer health plan, welfare, student loans, regulatory agencies to protect us from the worst impulses of some businesses and some people... the works.


Who pays for it? If the gvt. takes much more, we might as well go to a Communist system where I work and the gvt. provides everything.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> This shouldn't be a difficult concept. We live in a representative Republic; WE decide what is proper, and how these things are regulated.
> 
> Right now, many of us have been led to believe that the social safety net is not important; that it costs too much; that it is poorly managed; that it serves primarily the lazy. This is a deliberate assault on centuries of progress by a limited few who wish to tear government down to its bare minimum necessity. (If you don't believe me, I suggest you Google Grover Norquist, and learn more about his philosophies and his influence on the current administration).
> 
> We can have a society that benefits everyone if we choose to.


I agree with you! Well, mostly.
As a representative Republic, we do decide. That was the election on Tuesday.
Social safety is very important.
It does cost too much.
It does not serve primarily the lazy, but the lazy have figured how to take advantage of our support for their own gain and at the expense of those who are truly in need.
We can have a society that benefits everyone if we choose!

Peace, Melissa


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Hippie implies free love and acid trips to me.  Not something Jesus stood for.



You're missing my point.  People who nowadays espouse messages of loving all without question, of peace, of giving everything you have to help others, are usually accused of being hippies, liberals, pinkos, commies, socialists.  Ironic since these people are usually very religious, and their diety called for that same behavior.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Liberal? Like getting hummers in the White House?  Like being a skirt- chaser ala JFK?



Again, you not only missed my point, but decided to get insulting.  Particularly since, if you think that only "liberal" presidents and politicians cheated on their wives, you are ignorant.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Please don't claim "fruits of the spirit" for either side, unless you preface your statements as opinions or generalizations.



Sounds like a deal, if you don't put words in my mouth when you don't understand my point.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ive lost count of the number of people I have dealt with who have gvt. benefit cards and food stamps in their pockets and drive thier cars home with steaks, plasma TV's and DVD's to thier gvt subsidized apartments with the free heat cranked up to "solar surface". Granted I do deal with a certain segment of society and there are plenty of people using the system as an "assist" (heck my first child was born on medicare and feed by WIC untill I got out of grad school). But the problem with government programs is that...well they're ran by governments.



I have a hard time imagining anyone on government benefits buying plasma televisions.  I can, however, imagine people on government benefits not being able to get health care because no doctor will take them, barely being able to eat, and needing those benefits even though they work two jobs, because I have experienced all of that.

Governments are people, selected by people.  They are not inherently more or less effective than any other beaureaucracy.



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> How do we keep people from turning the "safety net" into a hammock?



Not an easy question to answer, mind you, but it's worth tackling, since the alternative is to stop helping people in order to punish those few who abuse the system.

The same kind of effective leadership that helps in any organization should help here.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Who pays for it? If the gvt. takes much more, we might as well go to a Communist system where I work and the gvt. provides everything.



Comparing our levels of taxation, which are the lowest in the industrialized world, with communism is a bit of a stretch.

We can fund this system if everyone pays their share... including having the wealthy pay a far larger percentage than everyone else.  We've talked about this idea in other threads.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I agree with you! Well, mostly.
> As a representative Republic, we do decide. That was the election on Tuesday.



Yep.  And I still submit that people are not given the best information on how society can work better for us all... and that information is key to having a truly informed electorate.

Social safety doesn't cost too much for the rest of the industrialized world... why are Americans so against it?


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I have a hard time imagining anyone on government benefits buying plasma televisions.


Believe me, been there, done that, seen the electronics. Not that they are purchasing said items solely with their gvt. money. Some are supplementing it with "side jobs" if you get my drift...........


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Comparing our levels of taxation, which are the lowest in the industrialized world, with communism is a bit of a stretch.


Yeah I was being a little facetious there. All the same, i live a fairly modest lifestyle, used cars, modest home, heck I dont even have cable. I earn a decent wage but my wife doesn't work full-time out of the home. Almost all of my $$ gets spent on bills and regular living. If my "share" gets any larger its gonna get tough. The cry for more taxes for more government programs isnt pulling my heart strings....


----------



## Flatlander (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> I have a hard time imagining anyone on government benefits buying plasma televisions.


Just to interject here, I have witnessed this phenomenon, it happens all the time here.  The fact is, it depends on how these programs are structured, and what kind of checks and balances there are.  

The brutal truth in my home town is that a welfare recipient recieves incrementally more money as they have more children.  I *know* that there are people that live in my city that drive brand new vehicles, and are abusing alcohol and drugs consantly (as in every waking possible moment) that are able to live this "high life" by not providing for their own children.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> You're missing my point. People who nowadays espouse messages of loving all without question, of peace, of giving everything you have to help others, are usually accused of being hippies, liberals, pinkos, commies, socialists. Ironic since these people are usually very religious, and their diety called for that same behavior.


Have you heard the one about it's easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven? quote from Jesus the "Commie" 

I don't object to sharing my wealth. 
I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to  do it. 

You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Just to interject here, I have witnessed this phenomenon, it happens all the time here. The fact is, it depends on how these programs are structured, and what kind of checks and balances there are.
> 
> The brutal truth in my home town is that a welfare recipient recieves incrementally more money as they have more children. I *know* that there are people that live in my city that drive brand new vehicles, and are abusing alcohol and drugs consantly (as in every waking possible moment) that are able to live this "high life" by not providing for their own children.


And unfortunately, its not as "rare" as some would like to believe. The majority? No. A definite problem? Yes.


----------



## Zepp (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> How do we keep people from turning the "safety net" into a hammock?



An important question.  I think finding the answer starts by finding leaders who at least believe in the importance of the social safety net, otherwise its programs will never be effectively reformed, just reduced.  It's become fairly obvious over the past several years that our current leaders don't believe in it to begin with.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Governments are people, selected by people. They are not inherently more or less effective than any other beaureaucracy.


Ever been in the Army? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Ive always said that if our military is the best on earth than the rest of the worlds Armies must really be #$%^@# up!! The problem with bureaucracy is that they get so big they cant see their own feet with a mirror.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 5, 2004)

I have greatly enjoyed the discussion but I am saying good night!  I'll pick back up on this thread tomorrow.

Flatlander, 
just out of curiousity,
Is this one of those scare tactic rumors about Canadian healthcare that it would take 6- 12 months to get an MRI if you blew your knee out attempting a spinning jumping quadruple roundhouse kick (or whatever)?
How long would it then take for you to get your torn ACL fixed after you've seen a orthopedic surgeon?

Thanks,
Melissa


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.



The VA program is screwed up because it is consistently underfunded and understaffed.  It's not that way because it's a "government" program.  It's that way because the people we elect (including Prez Bush), yes I mean people you and I elect, consistently savage it.

Let's look at another government program: the military.  Funded with taxpayer dollars, run by government beaureaucracy.  A lot of BS, as any of our fellow MartialTalkers who are in the military will tell you.  But, it's massively funded, and has the finest technology and best warfighters on the planet.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The problem with bureaucracy is that they get so big they cant see their own feet with a mirror.



Yep.  And this is true in the business world as well as in government.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If my "share" gets any larger its gonna get tough. The cry for more taxes for more government programs isnt pulling my heart strings....



If some of the things you have to spend post-tax money on now are provided for everyone, then maybe your share will actually go down.

Moreover, there are people who make a lot more than you who can easily afford a larger share.


----------



## PeachMonkey (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Have you heard the one about it's easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven? quote from Jesus the "Commie"



Exactly.  And the Xians who vote for anti-government conservatives may learn about that quote someday.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I don't object to sharing my wealth.
> I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to  do it.



This isn't about "government telling you what to do".  It's about we, the people, recognizing both the economies of scale that come with a societal safety net, and the fact that people *do not* share their wealth otherwise.  

Some of us give to charities... some of us volunteer time.

But, when Reagan cut government support for the mentally ill, and those people were dumped on the street, you didn't see them being taken into homes.  Those people are *still* on the street... the ones that are still alive.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> a.  I can speak for my family.  We were definitely not poor but nor were we rich. I didn't buy clothes at second-hand stores (rich peoples' castoffs, I believe you called them) because I had my older sisters hand me downs to wear. Both of my parents worked. My first car was a 6 y.o Chevette when I was a college senior. After college and grad school, I owed $36,000 to the government in student loans   (this is 20 years ago, college was a lot cheaper)  My siblings all have similar stories. Of the 6 of us, I know 3 voted Bush, one Kerry, and I am not sure about the other two.



This is a common situation in the middle class.  Your values are middle class.  Remember that.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> B. In my state, Orange County had in 2002 a per capita income of about $21,000.  Lake County same time had $26,000.  In 2004, Orange County voted for Bush 70/30. Lake County voted for Kerry 60/40.  Go figure.



What state do you live in?  North or South?  If there is a large population of evangelicals in your county, it doesn't surprise me...despite what the scripture says.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> C. Regarding appreciating those who sacrifice for our country, see Tgace's response above.



My response is appropriate.  



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> d.  Here is an interesting article about charitable giving.  I wonder if this had anything to do with Daschle's defeat?



Senator Daschle's defeat is partially due to Republikan thugs harassing native american voters with their confederate flag draped pickups.  They chased voters away from the polls.  They tailed voters home.  They issued threats.  Daschle protested to the Supreme Court.  Hmmmm 5/4.  



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> e. I have been on mission trips too (inside and outside the US) and I don't recall being asked if Jesus was a Republican or a Democrat.


 
We talked about politics all of the time.  Why point was just an anecdote and in no way describes everybodies experience.  By the way, I said Jesus was a liberal.  There is a difference.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yes, one can always "do better". Do you believe Utopia can truly be achieved? Where we, as a nation apparently, differ, is in how we achieve "doing better". Who pay's for it, who recieves the benefits, how long do they keep them, whats attached to them (differing beliefs regarding issues like abortion, gay marriage etc..), what are we robbing from Peter to pay Paul so to speak.


 
I'm not talking about Utopia.  I'm talking about making sure that in the richest country in the world, we do not have to bury children who are freezing and starving to death.  We don't have a bare minimum in this country that could prevent this.

Who pays for it?

It doesn't matter who pays for it.  I would pay anything I could do stop it.  Why?  Because *that * is right.  Wouldn't you agree?

Abortion and Gay Marriage are red herrings.  Perfect wedge issues to divert attention away from things that people should hear about.



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> If you honestly believe that over 50% of the country says "$%^#& the less fortunate" I think you are wrong. They may be saying "Im being taxed to death already, how can I pay for more social programs and keep my own roof over my head."



I may be wrong, but I haven't seen it yet.  51% of this country put their money away and ran their mouths about moral values.  Meanwhile we have starving kids and more poverty in this country then any industrialized nation.  

We pay the lowest taxes in the industrialized world.  Our wealthiest have loopholes that allow them to shuck most of their tax burdens.  We, you and I, pay the price and the Bush Administration is going to be business as usual about this predicament.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yeah, but that 1% more than yours makes all the difference.



Ever wonder why the scarecrow showed such a striking resemblence to Kerry?


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Same here. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Dad was constantly on the bubble of his company closing down (did after I moved out). Lay offs, home haircuts, reduced school lunches, hand me downs, scant x-mass'es, rural living, loaned my way through college, still never owned a new car. I owe, I owe so off to work (and second front jobs) I go.



This is still middle class.  Your values are middle class.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> But I doubt I will see the ammout of money taken by the gvt. on my check stub get any less.....



They need someway to pay for WW4 AND cut taxes on the rich...geez...


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> We have examples that can partially help us see the way... European countries that measure their success based on everyone's quality of life rather than on raw productivity or GDP, for instance.



Hmmm, this seems to strike a moral fiber and feels pretty good...


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Hippie implies free love and acid trips to me.  Not something Jesus stood for.



The counter culture was about freedom, equal rights and social justice.  Thirty years of spin by the right has made people forget this.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Liberal? Like getting hummers in the White House?  Like being a skirt- chaser ala JFK?



I think the consequences of our President's "truth stretching" will leave a larger impact then a dress stain.  

Try blood stains on tens of thousands of _brown _ children.



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I am making generalizations now, which is what I originally accused upnorthkyosa of doing, which is why I objected to his post.



I still don't think that my generalizations are that far off the mark.  They are certainly better then the homey anecdotes the right uses to justify their morally bankrupt policies... :idunno: 



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> Please don't claim "fruits of the spirit" for either side, unless you preface your statements as opinions or generalizations.



Melissa, the Right has been claiming the above for years and they don't preface their statements.  Heck, President Bush claims devine inspiration!  I think that the Left has got to start jumping in and talking about moral values if they want to have a chance on winning.  The Right's moral platform is a paper tiger.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Believe me, been there, done that, seen the electronics. Not that they are purchasing said items solely with their gvt. money. Some are supplementing it with "side jobs" if you get my drift...........



My TSD instructor is a LEO.  We share stories because we deal with different segments of the same population.  LEOs deal with a small portion of the people in poverty.  The things you might see are not the norm.  The norm is that these people truly have nothing and are desperately poor.  

The bottom line is that I give all of my old clothes away in the winter time and I still have to treat my students for frostbite.  One of my students has a crippled leg.  She was raped, couldn't afford an abortion, and had the baby.  She isn't 18 and can't work.  Her wellfare checks amount to $642.00 a month.  That ain't "high on the hog" by any means.  

Abuse of the system is not the norm it only looks like it because people have gotten so good at turning their backs on the poor...that is unless they break the law.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yeah I was being a little facetious there. All the same, i live a fairly modest lifestyle, used cars, modest home, heck I dont even have cable. I earn a decent wage but my wife doesn't work full-time out of the home. Almost all of my $$ gets spent on bills and regular living. If my "share" gets any larger its gonna get tough. The cry for more taxes for more government programs isnt pulling my heart strings....



I hear you, man.  I'm in the same boat.  Our taxes do not need to get bigger.  The people in power need to start paying an equivelent share.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> I don't object to sharing my wealth.
> I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to  do it.


 
I'll agree with you hear.  I don't like the government telling me I have to help pay billions of dollars for weapons systems that don't work while people are starving and freezing to death in the richest country in the world.  I'd rather my money go to save people rather then kill them.  President Bush disagrees with me though...



			
				Melissa426 said:
			
		

> You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.



Reagan killed a system that had been going down the toilet for a long time.  Comparing a real national program to the VA system isn't fair.  Also, I think that treating Vets in this way has been Bush Administration Policy.  So much for honoring ANY sacrifice for this country...oh well

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law..."


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Just to interject here, I have witnessed this phenomenon, it happens all the time here.  The fact is, it depends on how these programs are structured, and what kind of checks and balances there are.
> 
> The brutal truth in my home town is that a welfare recipient recieves incrementally more money as they have more children.  I *know* that there are people that live in my city that drive brand new vehicles, and are abusing alcohol and drugs consantly (as in every waking possible moment) that are able to live this "high life" by not providing for their own children.



I don't think their life is as "high" as people want to make it sound.  From my experience, they aren't living so good.  Of course, Canada may be different.


----------



## Tgace (Nov 6, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> My TSD instructor is a LEO.  We share stories because we deal with different segments of the same population.  LEOs deal with a small portion of the people in poverty.  The things you might see are not the norm.  The norm is that these people truly have nothing and are desperately poor.
> 
> The bottom line is that I give all of my old clothes away in the winter time and I still have to treat my students for frostbite.  One of my students has a crippled leg.  She was raped, couldn't afford an abortion, and had the baby.  She isn't 18 and can't work.  Her wellfare checks amount to $642.00 a month.  That ain't "high on the hog" by any means.
> 
> Abuse of the system is not the norm it only looks like it because people have gotten so good at turning their backs on the poor...that is unless they break the law.



While that may be true, and probably is, the "what you see every day isnt the truth" argument wears thin after a while. While it isnt the whole truth, it is definately part of it. Seems like a cheap way to discount somebody's point. Have I at any point said "scrap the social programs due to abuse"? I dont believe I have.


----------



## Flatlander (Nov 6, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I don't think their life is as "high" as people want to make it sound. From my experience, they aren't living so good. Of course, Canada may be different.


Perhaps that is so.  Also, to clarify, this is not a representative picture of welfare recipients in Canada.  It is an extreme example of the types of abuses that can and do occur when a welfare culture develops.  

I am proud of the fact that we have a socially progressive society here, but am disappointed in the way that things are run.  However, I also recognise the difference between the ideal and the application of the ideal.  I believe in the ideal, I think the application needs to be fixed.

I see a few arguments in this thread along the lines of "the application is difficult to perfect" or "I would rather choose how to help".  The fact is, if everyone only gets to choose how to help, and that's the only help available, there's not enough help to go around.  Would you not sacrifice that "freedom" that others may survive starvation and freezing?  I would, and do, and will never stop.  Yes, my taxes are high, but so what?  If I get laid off of my job, I will get paid my employment insurance.  If my baby gets sick, we can go to the hospital and not worry about money.  If someone is physically challenged and unable to work, they can still live a decent life, and be taken care of.  

Without me giving you all a brief history of my growing up, I'd be middle class as well, upnorth.

I think that the one subtle characteristic of living in this type of system that often gets overlooked is that the social agenda begins to take root in one's mind and belief structure over the course of time.  Because of this, the idea of "sharing with society" becomes a natural thing.  It's not something I "must" do.  It's just something I do.  It's _how things are_.  It's what Grandma and Grandpa did, it's what everyone does.  Our Conservatives are left of your Democrats.


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 6, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> But, when Reagan cut government support for the mentally ill, and those people were dumped on the street, you didn't see them being taken into homes. Those people are *still* on the street... the ones that are still alive.


This is not sarcastic. It is a real question.
If those people are *still* on the street, why did Bill Clinton do nothing about them during the 8 years he was in office.

Peace,
Melissas


----------



## Melissa426 (Nov 6, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I think that the Left has got to start jumping in and talking about moral values if they want to have a chance on winning.


What you say is absolutely true.
According to election polls, that was one of the main reasons Bush won.
I am not saying I agree with that position. 
I think the "right" has usurped the so-called moral high-grounds.  If the "left" wants to start winning elections, can they find a message that supports "liberal" values and morality and still appeals to Middle America? 

Peace, 
Melissa


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 6, 2004)

Indeed!  

  Where is the morality of denying services to veterans and underpriveledged?  Doesn't the sermon on the mount talk about this?

 Where is the morality in throwing Martha Stewart in jail because she told a lie, then lost millions, but letting Ken Lay walk free when he lied, and made many people lose millions?

 Where is the morality in having our leaders being involved hip-deep in the energy business and conducting wars to protect the interests of their energy businesses?

 Where is the morality in squashing women's rights to conduct their bodily functions in such a manner to ensure their pursuit of happiness?

  Where is the morality in cutting social security, which originally saved a great deal of elderly people from abject poverty?

 Where is the morality in denying life-saving condoms to hormonally charged children? Where is the morality in handing them what could be their death sentence?

  Where is the morality in protecting the unborn, yet killing convicted murderers who have had nothing near a fair trial?

 Until Democrats are willing to hammer these and other points HARD and just as vociferously and as PASSIONATELY as the Republican right has hammered their points, we cannot gain ground.

 A wise woman once told me, "If you want to change the rules of the game, you must first win the game by playing according to the existing rules."

  It's time to play hardball, folks.


----------



## The Kai (Nov 7, 2004)

Allthough I am not a Ploitical Science guy- I think the democratics biggest downfall has been thier motto

"We're Democrats and we promise not to upset the Republicans"
Todd


----------



## Tgace (Nov 7, 2004)

An Interesting article trying to explain why the Democratic Party is experiencing a period of decline. 

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20041107/1029709.asp

Some Interesting quotes.



> "The party has to recognize that it just can't count on its urban base," said Herbert B. Asher, a political scientist at Ohio State University. "The Democrats did a spectacular job turning out their urban base - and it wasn't enough."
> Moreover, the party's urban focus leaves it marginally competitive elsewhere. In fact, you could drive from Miami to Phoenix to Boise, Idaho, to Arlington, Va. and cross only one state - Illinois - that Kerry won.





> The party's lack of appeal in Middle America and its new struggles in parts of its base have one thing in common, political pros said.
> 
> Class is no longer the dividing line between the parties.
> 
> ...


The last part here kind of echoes my stance in the abortion thread that ran so long here. The article also states that the heavy celebrity and Hollywood personality turnout also turned off a segment of middle America whic I agree with too. 





> Democrats noted that Bush still faces mammoth problems in Iraq, which could benefit their party in the long run.


 I have a problem with this last part. Iraq is an "American problem" not a "Bush problem". American men and women are sacrificing their lives over there. If were going to turn this into "we arent going to work together to try to salvage something good out of this so Bush can go down in flames" affair insted of doing our damnedest to work together than shame on all of us! The whole concept of Iraq as disaster is good for the Democrats is sickening.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Nov 8, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> ... If the "left" wants to start winning elections, can they find a message that supports "liberal" values and morality and still appeals to Middle America?
> 
> Peace,
> Melissa



They have to decide just what their "liberal values" (is there such a thing?) are before before they can make it a platform for politics.  Then they have to hold fast to those values so they don't seem so fickle and weak.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 8, 2004)

Melissa426 said:
			
		

> This is not sarcastic. It is a real question.
> If those people are *still* on the street, why did Bill Clinton do nothing about them during the 8 years he was in office.
> 
> Peace,
> Melissas



He did, until 1994 when Republicans took over the House.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 8, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> They have to decide just what their "liberal values" (is there such a thing?) are before before they can make it a platform for politics.  Then they have to hold fast to those values so they don't seem so fickle and weak.



I would agree with this.  The democratic party has waffled and wavered and worked to play both ends for too long.  The dems need people with strong convictions to hold strong to those convictions.  For instance, if you believe peace is a better way then war, then there is no way you can support the war in Iraq.  Sure there are grey areas, but the RNC has mastered the black and white with or against us image to a point where its so simple that anyone can understand it.  

Next, the Dems have got to start embracing morals...moreso, they need to start using the language that americans use to talk about morals.  Liberal morals are straightforward and good for america.  The bible talks at length about things that liberals believe in.  So does the Torah.  So does the the Koran.  So many religions provide a tapestry of language to talk about morality...and I think the dems are going wrong by trying to talk about morals in a secular way.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 8, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I have a problem with this last part. Iraq is an "American problem" not a "Bush problem". American men and women are sacrificing their lives over there. If were going to turn this into "we arent going to work together to try to salvage something good out of this so Bush can go down in flames" affair insted of doing our damnedest to work together than shame on all of us! The whole concept of Iraq as disaster is good for the Democrats is sickening.



You don't give me much room to disagree, Tom.  The bottom line is that I cannot morally support this war.  I cannot make myself put one ouce of effort to support the PNAC policy.  I believe that the direction of this policy is going to eventually bankrupt America and I believe that the world will see us as villians before we're through.  President Bush is pushing a policy of military industrial expansionism.  This is the way I feel about Iraq.  If I were in charge, I would pull our troops out and let them live the way they want to live.  This war is BAD for America not just for the Republicans and the PLAN is only to continue "reforming Islam by force."  We will pay for this.  You and I and all of our friends and OUR children as taxes are slashed on the rich and buck gets passed to us.  

I can support the families of those who come home wounded.  I can support the families who lost their loved ones.  I can support the people who wait anxiously for their loved ones to come home.  But I cannot support this war.  I am an American.  I do not support this *Bush Policy*.  PNAC is not an American policy...49% are not on board.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> They have to decide just what their "liberal values" (is there such a thing?) are before before they can make it a platform for politics. Then they have to hold fast to those values so they don't seem so fickle and weak.


 
 Well, you all have sparked me anew.  I am going to research liberalism back to England, but for now, let's look at the MacMillan Student's Edition of the Concise Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language for the definition of:

*



			liberal:
		
Click to expand...

*


> _adj._ 1. originally, suitable for a freeman; not restricted: ... 2. giving freely; generous.  3. ample; abundant; as, a _liberal_ reward.  4. not restricted to the literal meaning: as, a _liberal_ interpretation of the law.  5. broad-minded.  6. favoring political reforms; not conservative: as, the _Liberal_ Party in England. ....


 Now, I also need to research the Freeman more, but here is the def. of:



> *freeman:* _n._ 1. A person not in slavery or bondage. 2. a citizen; person who has all civil and political rights.


 Here is the definition of:



> Conservative: adj. 1. conserving or tending to conserve; preservative. 2. tending to preserve established institutions and methods and to resist or oppose any changes in these.  3. designating or of the major right-wing political party of Great Britain or of Canada. 4. moderate; prudent; safe. ...


 ... and ...



> conserve: v.t. 1. to keep from being damaged, lost or wasted. ...


 I find these labels curious in their semantics, which one could argue until the sun goes down.

 For instance - one can conclude from the definitions above that liberals are charged with the protection of freedom and rights and are guilty of broad-mindedness.  Then one could argue that the idea of broad-mindedness is what led us here in the first place.

 One can also conclude from these same definitions that conservatives are about preserving.  Does this mean natural resources?  Older ways of living?  Policital stances?

 Let's face it.  Our entire system is corrupt.  I think it's all a big front and something much, much bigger is going on here.  I suspect Kerry was hand-picked as the opposition candidate for Dubya.  They're both Skull and Bones, after all.  And what's up with conceding before all the votes are counted and without challenging the vote?  GRRRRRRR.  

 Kinda makes a person wish they'd voted for Nader after all.

 I think there already is a New World Order and has been for some time and we are all but pawns in a greater system than we can have knowledge of at this point.

 Rant done.  Going to go boil my eggs now.


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Nov 8, 2004)

Interesting how this has become a Dems v. Repubs, rather than the original intent - about each person - and ideally, the society - taking care of one another.

This is one of the dearest moral values to be, as a liberal.  Taking care of our country, and other Americans, and other people around the world.  As upnorth has mentioned, allowing a system to be in place that lets citizens freeze to death is abhorrent.  

Increasing funding for social programs, which is desperately needed, need not increase the taxes of the vast majority of the populace.  If we closed the taxation loopholes and freebie giveaways to the wealthiest 1-5% of this country, our coffers would be flooded.  We are giving away the largess of our country to a few individuals, and multinationals with no allegiance to this country, as witnessed by "outsourcing" jobs overseas.

Why do I find so much fault with the current Administration?  Among other things, how little value it seems to place on human life, despite all of the jabber.


----------



## heretic888 (Nov 8, 2004)

> Well, you all have sparked me anew. I am going to research liberalism back to England



Technically speaking, "liberalism" has its fundamental growth originating in 17th and 18th century France. Most notably with individuals such as Rousseau.

What defines all forms of "liberalism" is that they hold the causes and solutions of human suffering to be external in origin (i.e., things are bad because 'society' did nasty stuff to you). Their general solution is to create an utopian form of society that provides liberty and equal opportunity to all (i.e., social programs a la social security, healthcare, welfare, anti-hate laws, affirmative action, humanistic-existential therapies, etc.)

What defines all forms of "conservatism" (which only truly came into existence as a reaction against rationalist "liberalism") is that they hold the causes and solutions of human suffering to be internal in origin (i.e., things are bad because you've been too immature, or too lazy, or don't have a strong work ethic, etc.). Their general solution is to create a moralist form of society where the development of values and morals are encouraged, but not necessarily forced or legislated (i.e., "character counts" programs, alchoholics anonymous, SADD and MADD, pseudo-Freudian psychoanalyses, etc.)

Obviously, there are extreme forms of both liberalism (ecoterrorism and Stalinist communism) and conservatism (fascism and religious theocracy). Just as obviously, there is value in both positions.

Laterz.


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2004)

_(SS peers over top of library book and listens to Robert's lecture)
_
 Uhh ... thanks.

_(SS ducks back down and continues reading ... )_


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Interesting how this has become a Dems v. Repubs, rather than the original intent - about each person - and ideally, the society - taking care of one another.
> 
> This is one of the dearest moral values to be, as a liberal. Taking care of our country, and other Americans, and other people around the world. As upnorth has mentioned, allowing a system to be in place that lets citizens freeze to death is abhorrent.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for posting what I could never have so eloquently stated, but wanted to.

 Here is the problem, yes?  We are so enthralled by our two-party, us v. them system and semantics we have made the topic of making the world a better place into a political argument - and I am guilty of engaging in it.

*I have a renegade idea - Let's get back on topic.
*
Sound off:  What do you do to make the world a better place?  How do you think you can help motivate others to take a small action every day to make the world a better place?  How can you magnify your efforts and enlist the help of others to do so?


----------



## shesulsa (Nov 16, 2004)

> *I have a renegade idea - Let's get back on topic.
> *
> Sound off: What do you do to make the world a better place? How do you think you can help motivate others to take a small action every day to make the world a better place? How can you magnify your efforts and enlist the help of others to do so?


 Anyone?


----------



## Feisty Mouse (Nov 16, 2004)

lol - maybe without the parties getting involved, it's less fun to think of the actual work we need to do.

Honestly, I think that groups of people - organizations - can accomplish more with pooling time and energy, but obviously groups start with each person getting involved.

I think the first important thing is for kids to see their parents and other adults volunteering.  When I was younger, even when I couldn't get a job at one point, my parents were very supportive and told me, keep looking for a job, that's OK, something will come along - but in the meantime, go volunteer someplace, do something with your time.

Sometimes reaching out to your neighbors - the very local community - may be the first step.


----------



## Nightingale (Nov 16, 2004)

I never really thought about it this way, but...

what I do to make the world a better place:

I'm a member of Amnesty International and the ACLU to help insure that other people in the world enjoy the same freedoms I do, and to preserve the freedoms I enjoy here in the US.  (for the record, I do not agree with the ACLU on gun control, and have been working within the organization to change their stance)

Last year I made $42K.  $9K was donated to charities that help people that are out of reach to me as an individual, mainly to St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital (www.stjude.org), which is a research hospital that focuses on children's cancer.  I feel that through investing in the hospital, I'm not only helping today's children, but investing in the health of the children of tomorrow.  Sometimes, the kids write thank you cards.  I've still got a few stuck to my refrigerator.  They make me smile.

When I take the toll road here, and I've got a bit of extra cash, I pay the toll for the person behind me too.  It always makes them smile when the attendant tells them that someone else has taken care of their fee.  I've had cars pull past me and wave, but most of the time, I just see their smile in my rear view mirror.

I try to remember the important things in life, and balance my time accordingly.  Twenty years from now, I'll probably not remember whether my apartment was spotless, or what kind of car I drove.  I will remember the time I've spent with friends and family.  I know I won't look back and think "gosh, I wish I'd done more housework or spent more time studying or working!" I'll look back and think "I wish I'd spent more time with my grandparents while we still had time...I wish I'd taken my cousins to the zoo more often when they were still little...I wish I'd sat down and had a few more heart to heart talks with my parents."  I try to spend my time doing things that matter, so I'll have fewer regrets later on.  

I will admit to a bit of selfishness...when I do something nice for someone else, I do it because seeing them smile makes me feel good.  Helping someone else helps me.  It puts my life into perspective, and makes me grateful for everything I've got.  I have a wonderful family, awesome friends, and enough cash to keep myself fed and pay my rent, and I'm healthy.  There are so many people in the world that don't have that.

Life isn't about money. What I think the world needs is to stop counting money and start counting blessings, because if you don't have people to love, all the money in the world doesn't amount to much.


----------



## SenseiBear (Nov 19, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> ..."Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" is a popular slogan chanted on the Right.  It means that if you wish to help someone you may, if you don't, then you don't.  It means means if you want to protect the environment, then you may, if you don't, then you don't.  It means if you want to work for peace, then you may, if you don't, then you don't....


I cannot BELIEVE that nobody on this thread busted you on this.

I mean, I find it hard to believe that this is a quote people on the Right are saying these days...


----------



## Tgace (Nov 19, 2004)

Its comes from Wicca..I believe the whole quote is "_And if it harms no-one_, do as thou will shall be the whole of the law." Entirely diffrent meaning than it was used there, and more liberal in intent than conservative IMHO.


----------



## Makalakumu (Nov 19, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Its comes from Wicca..I believe the whole quote is "_And if it harms no-one_, do as thou will shall be the whole of the law." Entirely diffrent meaning than it was used there, and more liberal in intent than conservative IMHO.



The one you quoted is actually the right hand path.  The one I quoted is the left hand path.  I find the fact that they have been flip flopped in the terms of our common understanding interesting.  By the way, I'm no wiccan, and wicca is just an amalgamation of other beliefs...like any other religion.  

Both of these statements have roots that are far older.


----------



## SMP (Nov 19, 2004)

I believe that many of us do act to improve the quality of our lives and the lives of others.  But there are many on both sides of any spectrum that are focused on only their self.  The problem I see is that to much energy, time & money is spent saying my way is the rightway rather than actually accomplishing goals.


----------



## TonyM. (Nov 20, 2004)

I blame my generation for the problems of today. We baby boomers were the ones that were supposed to make a difference. We became the ME generation and bought into the whole consumerism lie. The prevelant attitudes today remind me of the fifties again. The fifties were not anything like "Happy Days". The sixties weren't much better. By the early seventies it seemed like there were genuine improvements and then everyone got their hair styled and started to make more money and social change became a distant memory. For those of us that protested segregation and the war in Vietnam and the draft, it seems like we wasted our time. I hope the next generation of kids doesn't drop the ball. We sure did.


----------



## heretic888 (Nov 20, 2004)

TonyM. said:
			
		

> I blame my generation for the problems of today. We baby boomers were the ones that were supposed to make a difference. We became the ME generation and bought into the whole consumerism lie. The prevelant attitudes today remind me of the fifties again. The fifties were not anything like "Happy Days". The sixties weren't much better. By the early seventies it seemed like there were genuine improvements and then everyone got their hair styled and started to make more money and social change became a distant memory. For those of us that protested segregation and the war in Vietnam and the draft, it seems like we wasted our time. I hope the next generation of kids doesn't drop the ball. We sure did.



You should pick up a nice lil' book called _Boomeritis_, by Ken Wilber.


----------



## Rynocerous (Nov 20, 2004)

I don't give money, I don't help disabled people etc., although I should. The way I try to make a difference is just try to be pleasent to everyone that I talk to, and try to put a smile on their face. If I can make someone smile, or laugh, then I feel I have made a difference in their outlook for a slight moment. I beleive that is why I'm so goofy is because I like to make people laugh. If someone makes me laugh when I feel down or something is bothering me, I am free of that for that one moment. Laughter is the best medicine.


Cheers,

Ryan


----------

