# Is Toshindo still Ninjutsu?



## Sorte Slyngel (Dec 3, 2007)

Is Toshindo still a Ninjutsu art, or just plain selfdefense?

All I've seen of Toshindo is about selfdefense. Is the "Ninja" parts of SKH's training still taught in Toshindo? I've seen students use swords and several other feudal weapons but. Is etc Shuriken, Metsubishi, stealth, meditation, killing methodes (just the examples that comes to mind) still being taught in Toshindo?


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## Kreth (Dec 3, 2007)

By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 3, 2007)

Kreth said:


> By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.


 
I ditto what Kreth just said!


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## Bigshadow (Dec 3, 2007)

Kreth said:


> By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.



Yup! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  I would agree as well.


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## newtothe dark (Dec 3, 2007)

From an outsiders perspective TSD has the selfdefense and the "Classical" styles are taught seperate there are even seperate Diplomas for each.


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## Sorte Slyngel (Dec 3, 2007)

Kreth said:


> By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.


Well the Ninja aspects of the training are still being taught in Bujinkan and Genbukan. I assume in Jinenkan also. But it's of course as you say the combat part of the self defense that is playing the biggest part of the training nowadays.

I'm wondering why SKH would move away from the Ninja part of the training since it exactly that part that got him hooked on Ninjutsu in the first place.

So if I was making a list of the Ninjutsu arts being taught today, should I include Toshindo or not?


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## bydand (Dec 3, 2007)

Sorte Slyngel said:


> Is Toshindo still a Ninjutsu art, or just plain selfdefense?
> 
> All I've seen of Toshindo is about selfdefense. Is the "Ninja" parts of SKH's training still taught in Toshindo? I've seen students use swords and several other feudal weapons but. Is etc Shuriken, Metsubishi, stealth, meditation, killing methodes (just the examples that comes to mind) still being taught in Toshindo?



Kind of.  How's that for a definitive answer .  Strict sense I would have to say no like everybody else has said.  

Now that I said that, the school I train at still trains all the things you mentioned.  We still do things almost exactly like we did when it was part of the Bujinkan.  Some things did change of course, like a frigging rainbow of belt colors (I still HATE that part!), but we still have the traditional weapons we train with.  We still train outdoors sometimes (both Summer and winter.)  We still associate with our Bujinkan friends and still train with them when we can.  Here we make regular trips to Quebec to train with a great guy that is Bujinkan, and he and several of his students come down to train with us sometimes.  Special occasions for some of the students at either school will find students from both schools there, and not just MA related; weddings, graduations, birthdays. We all have traveled 5 or 6 hours one way just to show support. 

To-Shin Do still Ninjutsu?  Hard question.  Training methods in some schools you can't tell the difference between Bujinkan and To-Shin Do.  Other schools, not so much.  It depends on the Instructor and each particular class really.  Same basic material overall taught in all the To-Shin Do schools, but different Instructors teach the way they were taught, and that was either straight To-Shin Do, or Bujinkan before the split.  

Best way would be go to a couple different Schools, To-Shin Do, Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan.  See which one fit you the best and which Instructor matches you best.


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## exile (Dec 3, 2007)

Kreth said:


> By the strict definition, no. It would more correctly called bujutsu. But then, the same is true for most of what is taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, or Jinenkan.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> I ditto what Kreth just said!





Bigshadow said:


> Yup!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could you guys maybe make it clear to a complete outsider just what it is that you're all saying here? What is the distinction that Kreth is drawing between bujutsu (which I take it is the more general termapplied combat techniques, or something like that) and ninjutsu proper? I'd like to get a better undertanding in particular of why it is that you-all are agreeing that not just Toshindo, but the X-kans as well, are teaching mostly _bu_jutsu than _nin_jutsu. What has disappeared from the curriculum such that it's no longer ninjutsu proper? 

I'd really appreciate any light you could shed for me on this....


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## ToShinDoKa (Dec 3, 2007)

This video's a little old, but I think it talks to what Anshu was thinking of when adapting the teachings to To-Shin Do.


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## ToShinDoKa (Dec 3, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> This video's a little old, but I think it talks to what Anshu was thinking of when adapting the teachings to To-Shin Do.




Along with that, I agree with what Byband was saying about it usually matters according to the teacher.  The first time I went to the North Carolina Quest Center, I saw the younger students practicing throwing shuriken.  Later that same day, they were being led my Hakutoshi sensei in a Kukishinden Kenjutsu drill.  At the Mountain Quest Seminar, among many other training jewels, we worked on Kukishinden Bojutsu (Staff Arts), Kenjutsu (Long Sword Training), a Togakure ryu Bikenjutsu Kata, and Ninpo Aruki (Ninja Silent Walking).  

Would that count as a 'little' bit ninja?  I don't know.:shrug:


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## Bigshadow (Dec 4, 2007)

exile said:


> Could you guys maybe make it clear to a complete outsider just what it is that you're all saying here? What is the distinction that Kreth is drawing between bujutsu (which I take it is the more general term&#8212;applied combat techniques, or something like that) and ninjutsu proper? I'd like to get a better undertanding in particular of why it is that you-all are agreeing that not just Toshindo, but the X-kans as well, are teaching mostly _bu_jutsu than _nin_jutsu. What has disappeared from the curriculum such that it's no longer ninjutsu proper?
> 
> I'd really appreciate any light you could shed for me on this....




I will try and explain things as I see it (ie, my opinion) with regards to the Bujinkan, but I believe the same will somewhat apply to Toshindo.  First the Bujinkan is made up of 9 schools (ryu).  Not all of the 9 schools were Ninjutsu.  It is a mix of Ninjutsu and Samurai schools (I believe).Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu (I believe Stephen Hayes had been training in Togakure Ryu early on). For example, there are 18 skills that this school teaches according to what I have read.  These skills are as follows...



* Seishin Teki Kyoyo *(Spiritual Refinement) 
*Tai Jutsu *(Unarmed Combat) 
*Ninja Ken* (Ninja Sword) 
*Bo-Jutsu *(Stick and Staff Fighting) 
*Shuriken-Jutsu* (Throwing Blades) 
*Yari-Jutsu*(Spear Fighting) 
*Naginata-Jutsu* (Halberd Fighting) 
*Kusari-Gama* (Chain and Sickle Weapon) 
*Kayaku-Jutsu* (Fire and Explosives) 
*Henso-Jutsu* (Disguise and Impersonation) 
*Shinobi-Iri* (Stealth and Entering Methods) 
*Ba-Jutsu *(Horsemanship) 
*Sui-Ren* (Water Training) 
*Bo-Ryaku* (Strategy) 
*Cho Ho* (Espionage) 
*Inton-Jutsu* (Escape and Concealment) 
*Ten-Mon* (Meteorology) 
*Chi-Mon* (Geography) 

The way I see it, if Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu, but we only really train in a few aspects of it, then is it really Ninjutsu or just bu-jutsu.

Here are the most common things in training as I have experienced it... In order from most common to least common.
*Tai Jutsu *(Unarmed Combat)
*Bo-Jutsu *(Stick and Staff Fighting)
*Ninja Ken* (Ninja Sword)
*Yari-Jutsu*(Spear Fighting)
*Shuriken-Jutsu* (Throwing Blades)
*Naginata-Jutsu* (Halberd Fighting)
*Kusari-Gama* (Chain and Sickle Weapon)
I believe these particular skills were not unique to the Ninja, I believe they were more bu-jutsu skills.  So, in my opinion I think this is why Kreth said that, or at the very least this is what I understood it to be and that was why I agreed.  

Now, there are some skills I believe that are taught indirectly with training but are not trained specifically.  Take *Bo-Ryaku* (Strategy) for example.  The understanding of proper taijutsu is also an understanding of strategy, IMO.  Even *Inton-Jutsu* (Escape and Concealment) could be seen in training as well.  Additionally, I believe *Seishin Teki Kyoyo *(Spiritual Refinement) happens as a by product of the training, even if it isn't taught directly.

However, I have seen only the short list of things taught, so as for things taught, I would say for the most part bu-jutsu.

Then, I could be all wrong and I have caused subterfuge and further confused people so that the truth is still out there! :lfao:


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## Bigshadow (Dec 4, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> This video's a little old, but I think it talks to what Anshu was thinking of when adapting the teachings to To-Shin Do.



Nice video!


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## mrhnau (Dec 4, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> * Seishin Teki Kyoyo *(Spiritual Refinement)
> *Tai Jutsu *(Unarmed Combat)
> *Ninja Ken* (Ninja Sword)
> *Bo-Jutsu *(Stick and Staff Fighting)
> ...



Great post  Honestly, one of the things I was most disappointed in with the Bujinkan is the lack of training in some of these areas. Learning how to fight or defend yourself is wonderful, but I'd love to learn some traditional methods of Meteorology, Geography, Strategy...


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## jks9199 (Dec 4, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> Great post  Honestly, one of the things I was most disappointed in with the Bujinkan is the lack of training in some of these areas. Learning how to fight or defend yourself is wonderful, but I'd love to learn some traditional methods of Meteorology, Geography, Strategy...


One thing that occurs to me is that it's possible that some of this material is taught more selectively.

From what I gather, just about anyone of decent character with a good attitude is welcome to join the Bujinkan or train in Toshindo.  But some of those other topics don't lend themselves as well to a training hall class structure, or may be imparted in a more one-on-one format, to selected students.  It may be that the students who are selected are those who inquire... or it may be that the teacher selects the student... or it may be a little of both.


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## ToShinDoKa (Dec 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> One thing that occurs to me is that it's possible that some of this material is taught more selectively.
> 
> From what I gather, just about anyone of decent character with a good attitude is welcome to join the Bujinkan or train in Toshindo.  But some of those other topics don't lend themselves as well to a training hall class structure, or may be imparted in a more one-on-one format, to selected students.  It may be that the students who are selected are those who inquire... or it may be that the teacher selects the student... or it may be a little of both.



I agree with this, fully.  At a recent seminar, Anshu specifically talked about, as in the video to some extent, why the 'ninja' skills are not just freely offered to everyone.  He told us the other practices are taught to those who particularly have an interest in them, and perhaps have matured enough in their training to understand them.


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## exile (Dec 4, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> I will try and explain things as I see it (ie, my opinion) with regards to the Bujinkan, but I believe the same will somewhat apply to Toshindo.  First the Bujinkan is made up of 9 schools (ryu).  Not all of the 9 schools were Ninjutsu.  It is a mix of Ninjutsu and Samurai schools (I believe).Togakure Ryu is Ninjutsu (I believe Stephen Hayes had been training in Togakure Ryu early on). For example, there are 18 skills that this school teaches according to what I have read.  These skills are as follows...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great postit illustrates exactly how MT is such a terrific place for a serious MAist with a lot of curiosity to call home. Thanks very much for the info, BigS, that clears a lot of my questions up.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 5, 2007)

After thinking longer about what I said, I will also say that there are still many elements of "Ninjutsu" present in the Bujinkan training from what I can tell and there is likely much more than I can presently see.  I truly believe the essence of Ninjutsu remains.  Just, it isn't what is conventionally perceived when one first hears the 18 skills.  

I cannot speak for ToShindo or what still remains in ToShindo, but I would guess the absence of Ninjutsu in Toshindo would be of a greater magnitude.


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## ToShinDoKa (Dec 5, 2007)

:ninja:Ninjutsu still in To-Shin Do?  I'd say I agree with Big Shadow, to a high degree. 

During the basic levels I've seen multiple classical weapons being taught(bojutsu, kenjutsu, shuriken jutsu, kusari fundo keiko, etc.), as well as all the taijutsu (taihenjutsu, tobijutsu, muto dori, and so on). 

You do find a lot of the mental and psychological aspects (like haragagei "master ones own mind", teaching us to use our fears and natural reactions as a strength in our path to victory"), as well as some Seishin-teki Kyoyo/mind science, for those who are interested in said pursuits.

 As far as homemade explosives and gathering herbs, you'd probably have to request that with Anshu himself, if that's something you're in to.  
Nonetheless, compared to the Black belts, 'Toshi's, and onward, such curriculum or advised studies are both oblivious, and at this point in my training, doesn't really concern me much.  :shrug:  I can't say I wouldn't like to know a little more, me-self...but with the new To-Shin Do SKHQuest Online Community out, I'm sure I'll be able to find out.


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## SageGhost83 (May 20, 2008)

I was always told that for an art to still be considered "authentic" ninjutsu that it must teach the Juhakkei and the Hachimon. If these things are present in Toshindo, then I don't see why it wouldn't still be Ninjutsu. Perhaps it has grown and evolved like every martial art should and does, but as long as the core teachings and essence remain, then I would like to think that it is still Ninjutsu, not Traditional Ninjutsu, but Ninjutsu nonetheless.


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## kwaichang (May 31, 2008)

SageGhost83 said:


> I was always told that for an art to still be considered "authentic" ninjutsu that it must teach the Juhakkei and the Hachimon. If these things are present in Toshindo, then I don't see why it wouldn't still be Ninjutsu. Perhaps it has grown and evolved like every martial art should and does, but as long as the core teachings and essence remain, then I would like to think that it is still Ninjutsu, not Traditional Ninjutsu, but Ninjutsu nonetheless.


 
A well thought and said statement.  IMO, no martial art taught today is *exactly* taught as it was hundreds of years ago. However, that doesn't lessen it's roots nor deny it's right to be called by the original style name.


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 31, 2008)

I agree and for the most part I consider it as SKH's interpretation of what he learned out of all his training. As for the actual Ninjutsu part well you pretty much have to really look around for an instructor who 
1. Has actually been taught and trained in the actual Ninjutsu aspect of Bujinkan.....and
2. Is willing to pass on and teach that training.
Ninjutsu was a by product of centuries of war and oppression in Feudal Japan. Pretty much after the Tokugawa Shogunate was in place and Japan was at peace there was no longer a need for such skills. Now its all about taijutsu and self development.


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## ToShinDoKa (Jun 14, 2008)

Well you must likewise realize, Bujinkan is Dr. Hatsumi's translation of ninpo.  Shoto Tanemura-sensei believes different from him, although they both claim to be grandmasters of Ninpo (claims which I dare not deny).


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## ToShinDoKa (Jun 14, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> ...IMO, no martial art taught today is *exactly* taught as it was hundreds of years ago. However, that doesn't lessen it's roots nor deny it's right to be called by the original style name.


 
I agree whole-heartedly.  It is the responsibility of teachers to transmit the arts as they've seen practical and most beneficial.  Hatsumi-sensei saw a value in joining the schools together and teaching everyone world wide (although Takamatsu-den is said to wouldn't have done either).  Mr. Hayes has chosen to cater the art he mastered to the benefit of those in his nation.


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## ToShinDoKa (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes in deed.


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## kwaichang (Jun 14, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Well you must likewise realize, Bujinkan is Dr. Hatsumi's translation of ninpo. Shoto Tanemura-sensei believes different from him, although they both claim to be grandmasters of Ninpo (claims which I dare not deny).


 
Indeed.
Yet one must remember, Takamatsu Sensei chose Hatsumi as his successor and gave him the scrolls of empowerment.  
Tanemura was a senior teacher under Hatsumi and had "interpretive differences" as to how and what should be taught.  He therefore, left the Togakure Ryu and started his own style.  As the "soke" of a new style, he is entitled to be called a grandmaster.

personal note:  I had the fortunate experience of training in Japan when Tanemura Sensei was still with Hatsumi Sensei.  He was a great teacher; hard but great; and helped me immensely. ...especiall how to get up off of the very hard ground.:wink:


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## ToShinDoKa (Jun 25, 2008)

True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife. Honestly, though, this is of no business or concern of mine, personally, so I'll probably leave it at that. Either way, I've seen Tanemura's teachings and though though his teaching styles seems a little more ridged due to the deep samurai teachings, and family roots, and the karate style he headmasters, his is still classical ninjutsu.

You can't take ninjutsu from someone who's already learned and mastered it because they don't agree with the way you teach it, especially when you were together fellow students and not so much Master and Student. Anshu Hayes referred to his first instructor (Tanemura-sensei) as the Grandmaster's ASSISTANT, not his subordinate or best student. (Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art)


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## Kreth (Jun 25, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing....


I thought at first this was a typo, but you do it consistently. -den is not an honorific like -san, mmm'kay?


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## kwaichang (Jun 25, 2008)

ToShinDoKa said:


> True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife.


I never heard of this but then I don't know everything.  Normally only the soke can confer leadership not a relative.  :angel: 





ToShinDoKa said:


> You can't take ninjutsu from someone who's already learned and mastered it because they don't agree with the way you teach it, especially when you were together fellow students and not so much Master and Student. Anshu Hayes referred to his first instructor (Tanemura-sensei) as the Grandmaster's ASSISTANT, not his subordinate or best student. (Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art)


 
hmm, I wasn't taking it away from anyone, or am I misinterpreting your remarks?

and, yes, indeed, Tanemura-sensei was Hatsumi's assistant, also known to us lower ranks as a senior student...don't let semantics change the deference or honor bestowed upon him...even SKH, up until being made Shidoshi (and even afterwards in some cases) when asked what his ranking was referred to himself as a "senior student and teacher".


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## Hoteki (Jun 29, 2008)

Ok, hi just a few things:


_<<True, but being a family rite, after Takamatsu-den's passing, and Hatsumi-sensei's and Tanemura-sensei's disagreements, it was said Tanemura gained the approval of sokeship from Takamatsu-den's wife.>>_
<<I never heard of this but then I don't know everything. Normally only the soke can confer leadership not a relative>>

Noone from the Genbukan has ever claimed that Tanemura Sensei received any sokeships from Takamatsu Sensei's wife. He went to see her and talk to her and tell her about his plans for the Genbukan and to receive her "blessing" in that respect only back in 1984

As for the rest Tanemura Sensei was a student of Hatsumi Sensei, but after leaving he became a student of other students of Takamatsu Sensei and received sokeship from them, for example Gikan ryu, is hotly debated, however in the Genbukan it comes from Sato Kinbei Sensei who received it from Takamatsu Sensei after the passing of Akimoto Sensei, also Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu from Sato Sensei and Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu from Masaji Kimura Sensei. There are many elements that make up the Genbukan as pertains to reasoning for leaving the Bujinkan, etc, Tanemura Sensei has an official statement here: dated 5-8

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1


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## kaizasosei (Jun 30, 2008)

i think Toshindo is just an offshoot or even merely a copy of Bujinkan.
is toshindo ninjutsu?  tough question because i see people constantly playing around with definitions of ninjutsu and often there are people that practice for  a long time only to end up asking themselves the same question in respect to their training.  
  In my opinion, the only major flaw of toshindo, is that it does not realize the importance of the japanese cultural aspects of the arts.  Toshido is very optimistic to think that such a drastic shift of cultur will end up successful over the long run.  not that i am overly against anyone.  it's just i think that much of what we value as ninjutsu and ninja arts, is deeply intertwined with japanese history and culture. indeed, the spiritual aspects are very feelable in various ma. 

then again, it's just an idea.  With Hayessensei experience with tibetan buddhism and all kinds of other cultures, it may well work out. good luck to toshindo.
however, i myself personally cannot understand the break not to mention some of the explainations for the separation.  



j


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## kwaichang (Jun 30, 2008)

Hoteki said:


> Ok, hi just a few things:


 
Excellent statement.  I still maintain that students, no matter how highly ranked, cannot convey soke status.  Tanemura-Sensei could and did start his own schools and that alone entitles him to the titles, respects and continuing of lineage for his school of thought.


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## kwaichang (Jun 30, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i think Toshindo is just an offshoot or even merely a copy of Bujinkan.
> is toshindo ninjutsu? tough question because i see people constantly playing around with definitions of ninjutsu and often there are people that practice for a long time only to end up asking themselves the same question in respect to their training.
> In my opinion, the only major flaw of toshindo, is that it does not realize the importance of the japanese cultural aspects of the arts. Toshido is very optimistic to think that such a drastic shift of cultur will end up successful over the long run. not that i am overly against anyone. it's just i think that much of what we value as ninjutsu and ninja arts, is deeply intertwined with japanese history and culture. indeed, the spiritual aspects are very feelable in various ma.
> 
> ...


 
Indeed.

IMO, the heart of the ninja teachings has never gone away, just gone underground and now reserved for the highest of rankings.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Indeed.
> 
> IMO, the heart of the ninja teachings has never gone away, just gone underground and now reserved for the highest of rankings.



You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.


So you've received some of this special training?


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 22, 2008)

Kreth said:


> So you've received some of this special training?



 I know of it. Have you ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan? Well, it is taught to some people in Toshindo. Considering the dangers involved, I can understand why Hatsumi sensei would only teach it to a person with the time and knowledge of someone like Anshu. All the folks that claim to be more skilled with more time in Japan show just how little they matter when they admit they have never been shown things like that.


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## Kreth (Jul 22, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Have you ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan?


Personally? No. But then again, I'm not living in Japan and training with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan on a regular basis.
Have you ever *seen* kuji kiri training in Toshindo?


> Considering the dangers involved, I can understand why Hatsumi sensei would only teach it to a person with the time and knowledge of someone like Anshu.


What dangers would those be?


> All the folks that claim to be more skilled with more time in Japan show just how little they matter when they admit they have never been shown things like that.


I don't think anyone here claimed to be more skilled than Hayes. I certainly did not. I did say that I have trained with mere mortals who started after Hayes, and in my opinion they are more skilled and more knowledgeable.
Take it with a grain of salt, though. I only started my Bujinkan training 16 years ago, so I may be a poor judge of skill.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> You can still get it in Toshindo. But according to Anshu, the highest teachings can't be taught in the Bujinkan because there was a whole lot of only superficial students who were more interested in back stabbing him and feeding their ego than gaining knowledge. But if you are good enough, you can still get that type of knowledge from Anshu.


Y'know... that's a pretty suspect justification there.

"It's all those evil people attacking poor little me that keep this from the rest of you..."

Sorry, I find reasoning like that kind of suspect.

I'm not suggesting that Mr. Hayes isn't skilled, or isn't teaching what he believes to be the best way, or is being deliberately dishonest.  There's plenty of room for simply having different views of the same event -- especially when there's issues of cross-cultural communication (or lack thereof).

I'd like to refer you to an intersting article I recently read:http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html  It may off you a new take on these events.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Personally? No. But then again, I'm not living in Japan and training with Hatsumi sensei and the shihan on a regular basis.
> Have you ever *seen* kuji kiri training in Toshindo?



That is a silly question. It is a well known fact that Anshu is ordained and that he teaches these things.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not suggesting that Mr. Hayes isn't skilled, or isn't teaching what he believes to be the best way, or is being deliberately dishonest.  There's plenty of room for simply having different views of the same event -- especially when there's issues of cross-cultural communication (or lack thereof).
> 
> I'd like to refer you to an intersting article I recently read:http://www.ichinendojo.com/article6.html  It may off you a new take on these events.



People are indeed trying to say that Anshu is a liar. And since he is such an honorable man, I take offense at that. If he is telling us that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei when he is not, that would be a lie. And he is not a liar. He has proven to be the most honorable man in martial arts today.

That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> People are indeed trying to say that Anshu is a liar. And since he is such an honorable man, I take offense at that. If he is telling us that he is still a student of Hatsumi sensei when he is not, that would be a lie. And he is not a liar. He has proven to be the most honorable man in martial arts today.
> 
> That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.


At this point, it's clear to me that you have a great deal of respect for the founder of your style, which is a good thing.  It's possible for others to respect him without believing the same things you do.  Let me politely suggest that the discussion move towards training, instead of what Toshindo is or is not.  Maybe it's time to simply agree to disagree, and leave a 2+ year old event in the past -- whatever it may have been or not been.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> It's possible for others to respect him without believing the same things you do.



No it is not. Not in this case. While Anshu is trying to spread Hatsumi sensei's art in the world, there are people saying that he is not a student of the Bujinkan. That would make him a liar. They never say it to his face, but that is what they say.

Go ahead, ask him  yourself if you dare. Anshu is quite open about how he respects Hatsumi sensei. And Hatsumi sensei still speaks highly of Anshu and continues to provide guidence and training for him. And people that say otherwise WITHOUT EXCEPTION have never bothered to ask Anshu themselves.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> That is a silly question. It is a well known fact that Anshu is ordained and that he teaches these things.


You asked if I had ever seen kuji kiri training in the Bujinkan. I asked if you had ever seen that type of training in Toshindo. How is that silly? :idunno:



Toshindo4ever said:


> That article was written by someone who in the first sentence says he is not an expert. At no point does he say that he witnessed what was going on. And I have it on good authority that he does not really live in Japan.


Don Roley has lived and trained in Japan for several years. In fact, he's lived there longer than Hayes did.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Don Roley has lived and trained in Japan for several years. In fact, he's lived there longer than Hayes did.



Are you sure? Or are you just going by what others have said?

Because he sure does not know what he is talking about. And he does not appear on the lists of translators and such for Hatsumi sensei. But guess what, Anshu has!

What does that say about Mr Roley and all the other rumor mongers? Do you see the people that are doing translations for Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kais saying these things? No. Only those out of the loop like Mr Roley are saying these things.

And if Anshu is open about teaching kuji kiri, why do you need to ask me?


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> Are you sure? Or are you just going by what others have said?
> 
> Because he sure does not know what he is talking about.


I know Don Roley, and I'm quite sure that he lives in Japan. Now what exactly is your background, that you can so easily dismiss his knowledge?



> What does that say about Mr Roley and all the other rumor mongers? Do you see the people that are doing translations for Hatsumi sensei at Tai Kais saying these things? No. Only those out of the loop like Mr Roley are saying these things.


Then there are many, many people "out of the loop," as you say. What's strange to me is that their version of events is so consistent. Typically, liars like to embellish a bit. 



> And if Anshu is open about teaching kuji kiri, why do you need to ask me?


Since you've dodged this question twice, I'll assume you're unwilling to answer it.


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

For those who know, no explanation is necessary.

For those who do not know, no explanation is acceptable.:ultracool


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## stone_dragone (Jul 23, 2008)

As a partial outsider, I have to agree with JKS9199 and say that just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that they don't respect the object of that difference (in this conversation, Anshu Hayes being the said object).  Quite the opposite, actually.  A mature artist would take something negative that they heard about someone that they admire and either choose to ignore it or accept it and not let it change their belief.  

We walk a fine line when we hold our seniors in such reverence that anything said about them that isn't flattering should be met with the moniker of "disrespect" and is thus responded to with virulent contempt and anger.

I would hope that those of use who are offended for Mr. Hayes would take his own instruction on the matter and not let apparent detractors take away from your own joy.  

It is a sign of maturity to be able to take a disagreement and move on to, say, a discussion of the advanced level training methods of ToShinDo as a system vs the Takamatsuden teachings regarding the more "sneaky" areas of skill (smoke bombs, kuji, etc).


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 23, 2008)

Is ToShinDo still Ninjutsu?
Japanese Ninjustsu? No.
American Ninjutsu? Yes.
Does it share a common root with the Bujukin? Yes
It's not Bujukin Ninjutsu however.

Doesn't make it better or worse, superior or inferrior. Makes it what it is.
A separate art.


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

stone_dragone said:


> As a partial outsider, I have to agree with JKS9199 and say that just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't mean that they don't respect the object of that difference (in this conversation, Anshu Hayes being the said object).


According to some of the posts here, respect is not the issue, the posts do not reflect respect for SKH but rather "dis" him and label his statements, etc. as falsehood. Those must be addressed by we who know.:jediduel:


stone_dragone said:


> Quite the opposite, actually. A mature artist would take something negative that they heard about someone that they admire and either choose to ignore it or accept it and not let it change their belief.


Ignorance or blatant falsehoods are not to be ignored indefinitely. Truth must be stated at some point to try and inform those who would be swayed by those who post negatives.


stone_dragone said:


> We walk a fine line when we hold our seniors in such reverence that anything said about them that isn't flattering should be met with the moniker of "disrespect" and is thus responded to with virulent contempt and anger.


It's not reverence we practice but rather belief in the man, his teachings, and his word.:ninja:



stone_dragone said:


> I would hope that those of use who are offended for Mr. Hayes would take his own instruction on the matter and not let apparent detractors take away from your own joy.


I don't believe any of us has lost "joy". 


stone_dragone said:


> It is a sign of maturity to be able to take a disagreement and move on to, say, a discussion of the advanced level training methods of ToShinDo as a system vs the Takamatsuden teachings regarding the more "sneaky" areas of skill (smoke bombs, kuji, etc).


If it were merely disagreement, I would agree.


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> For those who know, no explanation is necessary.
> 
> For those who do not know, no explanation is acceptable.:ultracool



And there is a lot of people here who do not know AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW!


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## Toshindo4ever (Jul 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> According to some of the posts here, respect is not the issue, the posts do not reflect respect for SKH but rather "dis" him and label his statements, etc. as falsehood. Those must be addressed by we who know.:jediduel:
> 
> Ignorance or blatant falsehoods are not to be ignored indefinitely. Truth must be stated at some point to try and inform those who would be swayed by those who post negatives.
> 
> ...



So wise, so wise.


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## Kreth (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> And there is a lot of people here who do not know AND DON'T WANT TO KNOW!


Again with the irony.


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## bydand (Jul 23, 2008)

Toshindo4ever said:


> So wise, so wise.



So full of BS, so full of BS.


If Stephen Hayes will not publicly address these issues, and feels it is best to turn the other cheek sort of speak, then why wouldn't those of us who train in his art do the same?  Do you see him getting into arguments over an issue that was raised a couple of YEARS ago?  No, you don't; so why is it that most Long Distance students and ardent, borderline fanatical, supporters feel it is their solemn duty to defend something that doesn't matter in the long run?


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

IMO, it is merely that as he is being attacked here (sort of) his defenders speak up.  
I totally agree that SKH doesn't care one hoot for those who attempt to detract from his expertise and/or teachings.


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## Grenadier (Jul 23, 2008)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:
*
_Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## bydand (Jul 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> IMO, it is merely that as he is being attacked here (sort of) his defenders speak up.
> I totally agree that SKH doesn't care one hoot for those who attempt to detract from his expertise and/or teachings.



But he doesn't NEED anybody to speak up for him.  I highly doubt he *WANTS *anybody to speak up for him outside of a couple of the Hombu Shihans he has appointed, and even they will NOT speak *for *the man.  The represent SKH, but do not speak for him.  I know several very well and have never heard one of them speak for SKH.  Have heard them relay a statement, have seen them read a statement, have even had a few drinks with some at their homes over BBQ, and never heard them defend the guy like I see people on the internet who have never been in the same zipcode with SKH feel they have the knowledge and authority speak in his absence.  And yes, this same exact question has been raised to them directly, by me.  Have heard their take and their knowledge of the matter, but never once have they spoken *for *SKH.


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

bydand said:


> But he doesn't NEED anybody to speak up for him.


Agreed.


bydand said:


> I see people on the internet who have never been in the same zipcode with SKH feel they have the knowledge and authority speak in his absence.


I'm glad you distilled your reply down to these IMPORTANT statements.  
None of  us speak for SKH, rather we speak of him, his character and his teachings.  That, as students and friends (in my case over 30yrs) is the least we can do.


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## bydand (Jul 23, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I'm glad you distilled your reply down to these IMPORTANT statements.
> None of  us speak for SKH, rather we speak of him, his character and his teachings.  That, as students and friends (in my case over 30yrs) is the least we can do.



Agreed 100%

We can speak of his Character and teachings all we want and feel the need to; but to try and answer a question that is more personal I feel is stepping over boundaries we shouldn't be crossing no matter how much we feel our perception is the correct one.

The original question was is To-Shin Do still Ninjutsu?  As I have said before but in different words.  In flavor yes, but in presentation and content, no;  it has gone it's own way now and while a major portion of the content is the same as it was years ago, there is new evolving content all the time.  Same as in the Bujinkan, they have evolved in different directions and while the trappings are still somewhat the same, and the phrasing is somewhat the same, they are two different arts at this point IMHO.


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

Bruce Lee said it well: "To me, ultimately, martial arts means honestly expressing yourself. Now, it is very difficult to do"

IMO, all Sifu's, GM's and Master Teachers do just that.


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## Raynac (Mar 2, 2009)

I agree whole heartedly with your guy's last few statements. 

but the movie posted on the first page (thanks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T50WRzzbhlY
more importantly the phrase about gathering herbs got my mind started on an idea. since To-shin Do is a "moderenized" version of what he learned... why can't we apply that to the non-combative parts of the old ninjustu... instead of learning about herbs that may not exist in our climate, lets learn about the medicines of today, because im sure if our medicine was readily avalable to the public during the times of the ninja they would likely use it. 

you could learn first aid, CPR... and this stems all from the collection of herbs, maybe this is just a wild idea in a young mind but... we *could* actually modernize ninjutsu... make the american ninjutsu something really special... well you guys might be able to at least. i have many years before im a blackbelt and I can actually learn what stephen haze has to share about what he learned in the good old days.

What do you guys think?


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## GBlues (Mar 3, 2009)

Well, I'm just a white belt, and unfortunately I have had to put my training on hold for short time, due to not having a job. But if you would permit me, I would like to give my take on the matter. 

From the things I've read and heard, it kind of seems a mute point. Anshu Hayes has said on video that he does still offer those types of training,( herbal gathering, etc.....), to those that are interested. So I would say yes it is ninjutsu. Just not in the classical sense. Even he says, that he saw the bujinkan going in a direction he didn't care for. Putting more of a focus on the self-defense applications, than the more exotic ninjutsu teachings, and that he resisted for some time. Because he had studied ninjutsu to learn those types of things that you can't learn from other martial arts. However, he also says that he began to see the value in what Hatsumi Sensei was doing. That while there are still people that will spend the time to learn making there own gun powder, and finding herbs, etc... there is a large group that will not. They would rather concentrate on the self-defense applications. 

So as a teacher, if someone comes to you and says, "Look I like what your doing self-defense wise, but I really don't have the time for some of the other things, will you teach me to protect myself?" as a teacher do you tunr that person away, because they don't or won't spend the time to learn the other aspects? Perhaps after some time in training they will, or perhaps because they have come to you and asked you to help them learn how to defend themselves you help them.

In my life time I have never met a teacher that withheld knowledge just for the sake of witholding knowledge. I think that most teachers regardless of what they teach are probably more perceptive of there students than we give them credit for. If a student is ready and willing to learn something, or has even asked I think most instructors are more than willing if they feel that person is ready, to teach it to them.

Is to-shindo still ninjutsu? In my opinion yes. I think that it is structured differently to allow a larger diversity of people to experience,( even if it just a small piece), a piece of ninjutsu. To learn a little bit about a culture, while being more susceptible for most americans to accept the teachings. This is not a bad thing. The more people that can taste something, more popular that thing becomes. The same with anything. So....people will argue probably for a long time about things that really in the grand scheme of things don't matter. What does matter is are you happy with what your being taught? Do you find value in it? Is your instructor capable of passing on to you what he has been taught? The answer for me on all levels is yes. The question for each one of is the same, and if it is yes, why bother with the other crap?


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## Raynac (Mar 3, 2009)

GBlues said:


> Well, I'm just a white belt, and unfortunately I have had to put my training on hold for short time, due to not having a job. But if you would permit me, I would like to give my take on the matter.
> 
> From the things I've read and heard, it kind of seems a mute point. Anshu Hayes has said on video that he does still offer those types of training,( herbal gathering, etc.....), to those that are interested. So I would say yes it is ninjutsu. Just not in the classical sense. Even he says, that he saw the bujinkan going in a direction he didn't care for. Putting more of a focus on the self-defense applications, than the more exotic ninjutsu teachings, and that he resisted for some time. Because he had studied ninjutsu to learn those types of things that you can't learn from other martial arts. However, he also says that he began to see the value in what Hatsumi Sensei was doing. That while there are still people that will spend the time to learn making there own gun powder, and finding herbs, etc... there is a large group that will not. They would rather concentrate on the self-defense applications.
> 
> ...


 
well said! I agree 100% with you. 

also its not that I don't realize he still teaches it. I just can't wait (well of course I will have to) until I can learn the stuff that is not shown to the general public and try and see how it relates to modren day situations and what logical adaptions could be made or if adaptions should be made at all. Because I am one of those people who is interested in learning more than just the self defense.


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## ToShinDoKa (Mar 4, 2009)

Raynac said:


> well said! I agree 100% with you.
> 
> also its not that I don't realize he still teaches it. I just can't wait (well of course I will have to) until I can learn the stuff that is not shown to the general public and try and see how it relates to modren day situations and what logical adaptions could be made or if adaptions should be made at all. Because I am one of those people who is interested in learning more than just the self defense.


 
You know, Raynac, curtain Quest Centers actually invest substantial amounts of time towards classes/seminars toward the more medicle/survival/ninja type stuff.  Visit, for example, NCQuest.com.  The Chapel Hill Quest Center offers awesome training like the such, hand in hand with experts from this organization: earth-connection.com.


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## Raynac (Mar 4, 2009)

ToShinDoKa said:


> You know, Raynac, curtain Quest Centers actually invest substantial amounts of time towards classes/seminars toward the more medicle/survival/ninja type stuff. Visit, for example, NCQuest.com. The Chapel Hill Quest Center offers awesome training like the such, hand in hand with experts from this organization: earth-connection.com.


 
Thanks for the links I'll definatly look into it. 

I probley wont be able to invest in heading up there anytime soon though  even the closest quest centers to me are across the boarder (Im learning in Canada) so any trip at all is a huge expense and Im in universcity so I dont have much disposable income . 

But still thank you very much. its good to know that there are centers out there doing those kinds of things.


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