# Come in, or go away.



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 10, 2017)

[Ring ring.]

Hello, I'm interested in taking classes, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions.

Sure, come on in and I'll be happy to talk with you. You know where we are and our hours?

Yes, but well, before I come in, I just want to talk with you on the phone.

Didn't you call last week?

Er, yes, but I had a few more questions.

And once before that, about a month ago?

Um, maybe? I've been calling lots of places...

OK, so come in, we'll talk.

But I...

Nope. You are not going to come in. You just call and talk about all the things you will never do. You have great plans, but you're all talk and no action.

That's kind of rude.

I'm not wrong, though, am I?

...

So put the phone down and come in. We will welcome you, show you around, let you watch our training, you can even try a bit if you wish. We don't do contracts, nobody here gets paid, there is no pressure to join. Love to have new students, but we don't need to beg for them. We'll answer all your questions face to face.

That seems a bit, I dunno, harsh?

Son, we teach martial arts. The first secret of martial arts is to show up. So show up.

....well...I just wanted to ask some questions...

Ask me in person. Goodbye.


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## JP3 (Jun 10, 2017)

That's exactly how I do it at my place, Bill.  Dojo has a website, contact email and phone number of course, but everyone gets the same spiel.

Come on by and watch a class, and I or someone else will answer your questions while you do so.  Monthly fee, paid one month in advance just to keep the lights on, no contracts, just people getting together to share and learn.


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## JR 137 (Jun 10, 2017)

I answered the phone several months ago while my CI was teaching.  It was classic...

Me: Dojo name, can I help you?

Caller: I want to sign my kid up for karate.

Me:  Ok???

Caller: I want to sign my kid up for karate.  How do I do that? (in a tone of voice that tells me I'm the stupid one)

Me:  You can stop in before childrens' classes begin, speak with the head instructor, and watch class to see if it's a good fit for you and your child.  If it's what you're looking for, the head instructor will give you all the details.  I'd let you speak to him now, but he's currently teaching.

Caller: (now getting aggravated, and kids are yelling in the background).  How do get my kid to karate?

Me: I don't understand the question. (Thinking to myself 'you get in the car and drive him over)

Caller:  I'll make it really simple... I don't want to come in and watch, I just want my 4 year old to do karate.  How do I do that?

Me:  I'm sorry, but the youngest students we take are 6 years old.

Caller: (matter of factly) Well that answers my question.  Hangs up.

My CI had a puzzled look on his face when I hung up.  I guess I had that look in my eye.  After class, I told him conversation.  He chuckled and said "we get a lot of those."


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## Headhunter (Jun 10, 2017)

Can't agree with that. It's a very hard step starting a class and some can find it very challenging. So they call up and want to ask some questions to get a feel of what they're doing and reassure themselves or maybe simply they want to find out some details to decide whether it's even worth there time driving down.


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## Steve (Jun 10, 2017)

You don't do the school any favors being a hard *** on the phone.   Takes no more time to be nice to someone calling, regardless of how many times they have done so.   If they keep,calling, I'd take it to mean they are mustering the courage to come in.   

I think the message, "come on in," is terrific.   But I'd stop short of "or go away."


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## Headhunter (Jun 10, 2017)

Steve said:


> You don't do the school any favors being a hard *** on the phone.   Takes no more time to be nice to someone calling, regardless of how many times they have done so.   If they keep,calling, I'd take it to mean they are mustering the courage to come in.
> 
> I think the message, "come on in," is terrific.   But I'd stop short of "or go away."


Agreed for some it isn't as simple as just come in...people want to train for different reasons....what if a woman wants to train because she was raped and wants to defend herself but has serious trust issues or confidence issues basically telling her either turn up or get lost isn't going to help her is it.


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## ShortBridge (Jun 10, 2017)

I posted something similar a few months back and got good feedback from you guys on it, but it was more or less the same frustration that I was expressing.

The key lesson for martial arts students and perspective ones is that you need to approach and deal with your future teacher on their terms. If they are highly commercial, their terms will be different than if they are not. If they have space available, they will be different that if they are full. But, most teachers will lay it out for you or guide you through it and as perspective student, if you might want to train there, you need to follow.

It doesn't mean you can't shop or can't chose to go someplace else if it doesn't sit right with you, but if you might want in, you don't get to approach it in your own special way.

I play a classical instrument and it's not that different approaching teachers in that field. Frankly it's one of the most useful things I've learned in 30x years as a martial arts student, I use it in every day life dealing with all types of people.

Nice post, Bill. 

In response to "what if they were a rape surviver with trust issues?". I don't deal with everyone who calls me the same way, how they approach me influences how flexible or rigid am with them, which frankly is an intrigal part of my training. Bill's post was about a particular caller and I think he probably read him correctly, we've all had that call. I also suspect that with his experience, he would have read and responded differently to someone else.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Son, we teach martial arts. The first secret of martial arts is to show up. So show up.


English is not my native language. But when you call someone "Son" on the phone, is that considered to be rude?

Your post just remind me something like the following:

A: I just want to look around.
B: If you don't intend to buy, or you can't afford to buy, don't hang around and don't waste my time.

IMO, there is no "bad customers" but only "bad salesperson".


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> English is not my native language. But when you call someone "Son" on the phone, is that considered to be rude?
> 
> Your post just remind me something like the following:
> 
> ...


In some areas of the US (including my area) it can be both a standard greeting to someone much younger (in rural areas, especially), and a rude manner of address. It's all in the tone of the voice.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

I agree with the basic tenor of this. In general, I'll answer a few questions on the phone, but I want them to stop by. If it's not convenient to stop by, they almost certainly (no absolutes here, but really high probability) won't continue classes, because it'll be too inconvenient.


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## WaterGal (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In some areas of the US (including my area) it can be both a standard greeting to someone much younger (in rural areas, especially), and a rude manner of address. It's all in the tone of the voice.



Yeah, I'd consider it to be a little patronizing, but not quite rude.  Unlike "boy", which unless the guy is in single digits, is _definitely _rude.


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## WaterGal (Jun 10, 2017)

While it's important to be polite and helpful on the phone, in my experience, people who ask 1000 questions and want to talk for a long time before they've ever been to the school are usually time-wasters who like to imagine doing martial arts but will never commit to it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In some areas of the US (including my area) it can be both a standard greeting to someone much younger (in rural areas, especially), and a rude manner of address. It's all in the tone of the voice.


Thanks for your explanation. Many years ago when I was a waiter and served coffee to someone, he said, "I don't want no sugar." I put a lot of sugar into his coffee.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 10, 2017)

*I have very little time.*  My personal time is very, very precious and at this point I have more than enough students. So much that I can hardly keep up with all the private lessons.  While I am happy to talk with people there is only so much to say before they need to make that leap and come and train.  I get Bill's initial post and while I always try to be professional and answers questions and be encouraging there is only so long it will go on before I must move on.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> English is not my native language. But when you call someone "Son" on the phone, is that considered to be rude?



Not usually in the UK, we have lots of other words like crotchgoblin that we use, or cockwomble even wankspangle.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 10, 2017)

[





Kung Fu Wang said:


> English is not my native language. But when you call someone "Son" on the phone, is that considered to be rude?



It can be.  But it depends on context.  Consider that I'm 56 and many people calling are in their late teens to early 20s at the latest.  



> Your post just remind me something like the following:
> 
> A: I just want to look around.
> B: If you don't intend to buy, or you can't afford to buy, don't hang around and don't waste my time.
> ...



A dojo is not Burger King.  They don't get to have it their way.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your post just remind me something like the following:
> 
> A: I just want to look around.
> B: If you don't intend to buy, or you can't afford to buy, don't hang around and don't waste my time.
> ...


Except that they aren't hanging around. They're calling on the phone. If someone called a retail outlet a lot of times asking questions that a) were indicative of someone who is unlikely to buy, and b) took time from assisting customers in the store, then it's time to get off the phone with them. Same thing at a dojo.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

I will take the other side.

If customers were not idiots you would not need service people.

It is a basic part of your job. Whether you get paid for it or not.

I had to deal with it in martial arts. I had to deal with it in security. I have to deal with it working at the bottle shop. Instead of expecting the customers to change. Gain the skills to handle the customers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I will take the other side.
> 
> If customers were not idiots you would not need service people.
> 
> ...


Someone who won't come to the school isn't a customer. They're barely a prospect.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Someone who won't come to the school isn't a customer. They're barely a prospect.



They are still a person. You either have the time to help them out or you don't.


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## Paul_D (Jun 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Thanks for your explanation. Many years ago when I was a waiter and served coffee to someone, he said, "I don't want no sugar." I put a lot of sugar into his coffee.


You gave him what he asked for, hope,he tipped you then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> They are still a person. You either have the time to help them out or you don't.


Nobody has said they won't help them. The OP was specifically about someone who keeps calling to ask more questions. That's not someone who's going to come to classes. It doesn't matter whether I have time or not - I can't help someone who won't come to classes.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 10, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> [Ring ring.]
> 
> Hello, I'm interested in taking classes, I was wondering if you could answer a few questions.
> 
> ...


You should have told him to call you when he gets to your school. lol


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Nobody has said they won't help them. The OP was specifically about someone who keeps calling to ask more questions. That's not someone who's going to come to classes. It doesn't matter whether I have time or not - I can't help someone who won't come to classes.



People have no idea even the right questions to ask. But then we complain they approach the conversation the wrong way.

Of course they don't come in. They don't feel you can even help them over the phone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> People have no idea even the right questions to ask. But then we complain they approach the conversation the wrong way.
> 
> Of course they don't come in. They don't feel you can even help them over the phone.


You are ignoring the part where the caller had called before, and had questions answered. But then you do that a lot.


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## drop bear (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are ignoring the part where the caller had called before, and had questions answered. But then you do that a lot.



No. I didn't. It doesn't change my stance. Read my post. They don't even know what questions to ask. So they ring. As wrong questions. Ring again. Seems pretty sensible unless you know what questions they should have asked.

It was factored in.

You are accusing me of doing stuff I don't do. Which you do a lot.

Your lack of skill communicating with people is a direct factor to how many dumb people you engage with.

If you communicate better. They become smarter.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I can't help someone who won't come to classes.


But when people ask you a question in the forum, you may try to answer that question even if that person doesn't pay you. What's the difference here?


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 10, 2017)

When people call to learn more about the school, I listen so I can learn as much as I can about the person I'm talking to.  As much as I would like to accept anyone, I know that I can't and I shouldn't. I have to also make sure that the potential student is going to be a good fit for the school.  I couldn't accept a student that would make training more dangerous and make things dangerous for the existing students.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 11, 2017)

If you're having issues getting people to come in, you need to take a hard look at your approach. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> No. I didn't. It doesn't change my stance. Read my post. They don't even know what questions to ask. So they ring. As wrong questions. Ring again. Seems pretty sensible unless you know what questions they should have asked.
> 
> It was factored in.
> 
> ...


It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But when people ask you a question in the forum, you may try to answer that question even if that person doesn't pay you. What's the difference here?


Here I take the same approach. If someone here is training, I'm doing what I can to help them with what they're training. If someone here isn't training, I'll do my best to help them find training. But once it's clear they aren't going to train, I can't help them with martial arts.


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## drop bear (Jun 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.



I am aware it is possible. That is kind of my point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I am aware it is possible. That is kind of my point.


Then I think I've missed your point this time, DB. I do that more with you than most here, I think. And I think you and I are reading some different subtext into the OP. As I re-read your posts, I think you're just hearing it as someone asking questions. I'm hearing it as someone asking specific kinds of questions - questions I've heard before, and which - when repeated or followed with more of their kind - have never lead to someone even stopping by.


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## Steve (Jun 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's entirely possible - with good communication skills - to tell whether the questions are good questions. And it's even easier to tell when someone is asking the same questions a different way, simply avoiding coming in. We get those folks from time to time here on MT, and patiently answering more questions doesn't help them.


this is speculation disguised as fact.   While I will agree you can tell if someone is hedging in the moment, it's impossible to know that someone will never come in.   Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.

And frankly, some here do a lousy job of patiently answering questions.  When you're rude or impatient to people, it's impossible to know whether they left because or in spite of the reception they received.  All we really know is that they left.

If you run your school like a club or a non profit, by all means, be judgy and burn leads.   However, if you are trying to make a profit, you really need to consider the school as customer service and treat people accordingly.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Here I take the same approach. If someone here is training, I'm doing what I can to help them with what they're training. If someone here isn't training, I'll do my best to help them find training. But once it's clear they aren't going to train, I can't help them with martial arts.


I take the same approach.  My goal is to help the person that is calling.  I can do this in 2 ways.  I can offer what is taught at my school or I can suggest a school that may be a good fit for them.  Either way I want to make a good impression because while that person may not want Jow Ga Kung Fu,  they may know someone who want kung fu and they may recommend Jow Ga Kung fu and my school in particular.  

I imagine the conversation being something like 
Caller's (Frank) Friend: "Hey Frank, do you know of any good kung fu schools?"    
Frank:  "I spoke to someone at Jow Ga Kung Fu academy, they were nice. Try them out.  They may know of a good place if they aren't right for you."

The only reason I imagine the conversation like this, is because I've seen similar conversations play out here when someone asks "Do you know a good martial arts school in my area?"

I had a caller who only talked about his martial art and what they did at his old school, and he asked me about testing and I told him we don't have testing, just evaluation.  He asked about ranking and I told him we didn't have belts.  The conversation went on for 5 email communications and with each email. I felt more and more like I had to prove something to him. When I start to feel like that then I just got straight to the point and suggested a different school.  It was the kind way of saying "We don't want you to be a student here."


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> it's impossible to know that someone will never come in. Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.


My Sifu learned this about me.  I visited the school one month and he didn't see me until Months later.  He told me that he originally thought that I was full of crap after the first couple of weeks passed. lol.  But he was never rude at the beginning and had patience.  I told him that I had to wait a few months before joining because I had to save up enough money for my son to join as well.

My school's newest student viewed the website and the sparing videos on the website for 6 months before reaching out to ask about classes.  He showed up a few weeks later.  It took a week of free classes for him to join.  He was happy with what he saw in the classes so hopefully he will be with us for a few years or longer.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> this is speculation disguised as fact.   While I will agree you can tell if someone is hedging in the moment, it's impossible to know that someone will never come in.   Days, months or maybe even years later, a few minutes of patience on the phone could bear fruit.
> 
> And frankly, some here do a lousy job of patiently answering questions.  When you're rude or impatient to people, it's impossible to know whether they left because or in spite of the reception they received.  All we really know is that they left.
> 
> If you run your school like a club or a non profit, by all means, be judgy and burn leads.   However, if you are trying to make a profit, you really need to consider the school as customer service and treat people accordingly.


It's a conclusion drawn on experience. Speculation would usually be thought of as guessing, and this isn't guessing. There are types of questions that when repeated have never in my experience involved someone coming in, no matter how many questions you answer. So I now prefer to give people a nudge to come in to ask the rest of their questions. If they won't, it's either because it's too inconvenient (and will remain so, should they decide to sign up, so they'll quit soon), or because they just can't make up their mind. I'm no help to them in either case. I can only help prospective students over the phone to a certain point. Then they actually need to come in. I don't need it - they do. My experience when I would take more time to answer their questions - handling repeat calls with no urgency - was that they never came in, and often called a couple more times.

I never said anything about being rude, and I'm patient through a series of questions. I just know that eventually they need to come in. Coming in will save them time. They'll either like what we do and sign up, or they won't, and can continue their search. I've always managed to do this without being rude to people.


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## JP3 (Jun 11, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> [A dojo is not Burger King.  They don't get to have it their way.



But Bill, what if it is a McDojo?  Surely they'd Be Lovin' It!

Oh man... that was too easy. It was Right there. I had to do it.

But trying to be at least marginally serious, on the O/P I think there is a slight disconnect with it and some of the responses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Bill, but I believe you wrote elsewhere that your Sensei's dojo is not primarily a money-making machine. It is something that he does, for his own enjoyment and betterment, and for the education and betterment of others. It's not all about money, though certainly money is an influence and a factor to consider, since the lights need to stay on, and the heater run in the winter, etc.

That's a totally different concept of school than your typical McDojo with a 1,000 kid roster of students, and people getting ranked up every two weeks for  the next sparkly dot on the next stripe on their fuschia belt.

I agree with Gerry on this idea... that if it is challenging for the person to come to the dojo to visit it, to see if they even like the way I look, smell, laugh, or heck even teach... they'll probably have a hard time getting to class.  I might be able to sway them IF they show up, but showing up IS the first step to success and it IS 90% of continuing success.

Being sensitive and aware in extreme cases, such as the potential rape victim, I've had to do that a couple of times.  Nothing at all like what I perceive to be those of other posters on here, and I won't pretend to it.  It will be something that happens to you as an instructor, and it is a good idea o have at least "something" in mind for when it happens... those persons can not be handled like other persons if you want success in dealing with them.

At our current location, I had one young woman (I say she was young... she was probably early 30s) call in and ask about class.  I asked if she knew where we were and she said yes, she worked in the same business park as we were located and went past the school nearly every day and saw people coming and going.  I asked her to stop in the next day as it was a class day... and the conversation got weird.  She asked why she would have to come by.... I said so you can look inside?  She asked who would be there.... I said, well, me and whoever of the students show up for that day's classes? How many female students do you have....Right now, there are five? Do you have the women practice with the men.... well, yes.... we sort of have to, we've only got one room and one mat for practice?

She said I don't know if I'm comfortable with that. And hung up.  She called back a month or so later.... and said she'd been thinking about it as she went past every work day, saw the same people coming in and going out... and asked if it would be OK to come by.  I said sure... as one would.  She didn't come by that day (A Tuesday as I recall)... but she did show up all unannounced, while class was going, on Thursday.  I stepped off of the mat to greet her, and she stood up from where she'd been sitting, and took a step towards the door. Literally.  I remember thinking... "Weird" and snapped to the phone calls, witht he whiz-bang awesomeness of a 5th grader.... and connected the calls tot he person.  "Hi, are you [NAME]?"  Response was just a nod.  OK, nice to meet you, do you have questions or do you just wish to watch and ask questions later?  "I'll just watch."  Okey-dokey... turn around, and go back to being thrown around by people, which is fun for me.

She ended up starting class, I found out that she'd beent he victim of sexual abuse as a child, and further had been raped. It was a huge struggle for her to even speak to a male... but she came to class regularly for about 3 and a half years before she had a employment opportunity that she had to take, huge vertical move for her.  In that 3 years she progressed steadily, once she had built up trust and rapport with her training partners.

I wrote all that to say this:  You Will be able to ... tell... when you've got a special case on your hands.  I don't know Bill personally, but from the tenor of his posts I feel very secure in offering that if [NAME] had called his Sensei's dojo and Bill answered the call, he'd not have been brusque and/or dismissive.

For those who are just out kicking tiers... they won't be ready to buy until they are actually... ready.  Time is a precious thing... on both sides of this equation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

JP3 said:


> For those who are just out kicking tiers


I hate it when people beat up on the levels. (Sorry, had to do it.)

I think you and I are on the same page with this. I've not had anyone as significantly affected as the example you give, but I did have someone come to a series of workshops I offered who'd had some severely bad experiences. She toughed it out, even though she needed to stop and cry every time someone touched her neck (her experience involved an actual "rape choke"). She didn't join classes long-term, but made decent progress in the few weeks of the seminar series. It took a different approach to help her get started, and her discomfort was very different from those folks who just danced around topics.


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## Steve (Jun 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a conclusion drawn on experience. Speculation would usually be thought of as guessing, and this isn't guessing. There are types of questions that when repeated have never in my experience involved someone coming in, no matter how many questions you answer. So I now prefer to give people a nudge to come in to ask the rest of their questions. If they won't, it's either because it's too inconvenient (and will remain so, should they decide to sign up, so they'll quit soon), or because they just can't make up their mind. I'm no help to them in either case. I can only help prospective students over the phone to a certain point. Then they actually need to come in. I don't need it - they do. My experience when I would take more time to answer their questions - handling repeat calls with no urgency - was that they never came in, and often called a couple more times.
> 
> I never said anything about being rude, and I'm patient through a series of questions. I just know that eventually they need to come in. Coming in will save them time. They'll either like what we do and sign up, or they won't, and can continue their search. I've always managed to do this without being rude to people.


Educated guessing then.   Rationalize it however you like but I still consider that to be speculation.   Unless you're suggesting you have followed these folks to confirm they never train.   That sounds dubious.


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## JP3 (Jun 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I hate it when people beat up on the levels. (Sorry, had to do it.)
> 
> I think you and I are on the same page with this. I've not had anyone as significantly affected as the example you give, but I did have someone come to a series of workshops I offered who'd had some severely bad experiences. She toughed it out, even though she needed to stop and cry every time someone touched her neck (her experience involved an actual "rape choke"). She didn't join classes long-term, but made decent progress in the few weeks of the seminar series. It took a different approach to help her get started, and her discomfort was very different from those folks who just danced around topics.



Ya got me... I didn't proofread it.

As to your student.... PTSD is a ... well fill in the blank.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 11, 2017)

Steve said:


> Educated guessing then.   Rationalize it however you like but I still consider that to be speculation.   Unless you're suggesting you have followed these folks to confirm they never train.   That sounds dubious.


I've followed the history of those I kept answering, and they never trained. That's enough input for me to extrapolate from. In my experience, it was a consistent predictor. When you find a consistent predictor, you make decisions based upon them unless and until you find evidence that contradicts prior experience.

EDIT: I should add here that it's entirely possible those folks I kept answering finally trained somewhere else. If that's true, I wasn't ever going to be able to help them, and their pattern is an indicator of someone who won't ever train _with me_. Note that I'm not dismissing them as untrainable, just recognizing that I've never managed to get one such person to come train. I can't help them. If someone else can, I need to get them off my phone so they'll call someone with the requisite skills to do so.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 12, 2017)

This whole thing reminds me of that guy who used to come on here (can't even remember his name), asking a ton of questions about Martial Arts but never took the effort to actually go to a Martial Arts class, for x,y,z reasons that were all as pathetic as the next. Just like the person on the phone to the OP, it got to the point where we all stopped answering his questions and just told him to go to a class and find out for himself.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 12, 2017)

just like on line ,  some phone calls are just trolls.  you can tell a troll on line and you can tell a troll on the phone.


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## Flatfish (Jun 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not usually in the UK, we have lots of other words like crotchgoblin that we use, or cockwomble even wankspangle.




 Sh^tgibbon is still my favorite


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## lklawson (Jun 12, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> English is not my native language. But when you call someone "Son" on the phone, is that considered to be rude?
> 
> Your post just remind me something like the following:
> 
> ...


Feh.  It's his school, he can do it however he wants.  If he wants to be choosy, he can be choosy based on whatever he wants.  If he wants to be choosy based on whether or not someone irritates him on the phone, that's his choice.

I know one instructor who will only teach based on whether or not someone he knows and trusts refers the new student to him.  No walk-ins.  Not even a public store-front.

I know of one school which basically doesn't answer questions from phone calls beyond some basics of where to find the published content.  You can go online and see reviews of classes and what the basic curriculum will be.  If you don't show up with the right equipment, they'll sell or rent it to you.

I came across one club, years ago, who claimed to teach African or Nubian Martial Arts (think "ancient Egyptian" or the like).  They categorically refused to teach anyone who wasn't ethnically black.  Is that racist?  Yes.  But it wasn't a commercial club.  They can choose their students based on whatever they want.

Me, personally, I'll have phone conversations if I have the time.  Otherwise, I say that I can't talk and goodbye.  Show up to my class and if I don't like you, then go away.  I also don't teach kids when I teach western martial arts.  My club.  My way.

I get what you're saying.  It's the standard model for public sales/service institutions.  If I were running a Jiffy Lube and I wanted to make lots of money, then your way is usually right.

But most places, during most times in history, martial arts instruction, indeed most any knowledge and skills based instruction, is a sellers market.  The seller gets to decide, based on their own criteria, whether or not the customer will get the training.

So if he wants to be Foghorn Leghorn, "I say, I say.. You bug me son.  Go away" that's perfectly acceptable.







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jun 12, 2017)

Anyone else remember this thread?

Is this a red flag?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 12, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This whole thing reminds me of that guy who used to come on here (can't even remember his name), asking a ton of questions about Martial Arts but never took the effort to actually go to a Martial Arts class, for x,y,z reasons that were all as pathetic as the next. Just like the person on the phone to the OP, it got to the point where we all stopped answering his questions and just told him to go to a class and find out for himself.


I think we had a couple of those guys.


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## JR 137 (Jun 12, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> This whole thing reminds me of that guy who used to come on here (can't even remember his name), asking a ton of questions about Martial Arts but never took the effort to actually go to a Martial Arts class, for x,y,z reasons that were all as pathetic as the next. Just like the person on the phone to the OP, it got to the point where we all stopped answering his questions and just told him to go to a class and find out for himself.



I was thinking about him too - kehkorpz, or something like that.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 12, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think we had a couple of those guys.



I'm sure you've had many such people come through here at one time or another


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## ShortBridge (Jun 12, 2017)

lklawson said:


> ...My club. My way...



Right.


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## Steve (Jun 12, 2017)

I understand the "my club; my way" thing, but I don't think Bill, the OP, has his own school.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Feh.  It's his school, he can do it however he wants.  If he wants to be choosy, he can be choosy based on whatever he wants.  If he wants to be choosy based on whether or not someone irritates him on the phone, that's his choice.
> 
> I know one instructor who will only teach based on whether or not someone he knows and trusts refers the new student to him.  No walk-ins.  Not even a public store-front.
> 
> ...



Does he even know he is creating the exact kind of conversations that he complains about?

Big trick to bouncing effectively by the way is knowing when you are being the duchebag.

It integrates quite well in to sales. Or just having less fights with people.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does he even know he is creating the exact kind of conversations that he complains about?
> 
> Big trick to bouncing effectively by the way is knowing when you are being the duchebag.
> 
> It integrates quite well in to sales. Or just having less fights with people.


Which "he" are you referring to here?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 12, 2017)

Steve said:


> I understand the "my club; my way" thing,...


Sometime even if it's your school, you still have some restriction.

When I had my MA school, one day a group of black panther members came and requested private lesson. I accepted. Next day a FBI member came and wanted me to provide him the names and information. I didn't want to get into that kind of trouble. I told the black panther members that for their own good, it's better that I did not provide them that class. They understood and left.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Which "he" are you referring to here?



Op.


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## lklawson (Jun 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Does he even know he is creating the exact kind of conversations that he complains about?


So what?



> Big trick to bouncing effectively by the way is knowing when you are being the duchebag.


Again, so what?  There's one famous martial artist who is also frequently credited with being a douchebag.  People line up to take classes from him.  He claims that he had to beg his instructor to teach him and had the door, literally, slammed in his face multiple times as he was begging.

You may not like it, but it is a pretty common method of culling "unserious" students throughout history.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Buka (Jun 13, 2017)

As a patron, I never frequented places where bouncers were douchebags. As a bouncer, I never worked with any. It was years ago, though, maybe things have changed.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2017)

lklawson said:


> So what?
> 
> Again, so what?  There's one famous martial artist who is also frequently credited with being a douchebag.  People line up to take classes from him.  He claims that he had to beg his instructor to teach him and had the door, literally, slammed in his face multiple times as he was begging.
> 
> ...



There is one famous martial artist who complains he never gets asked to do seminars. Then complains his students get great reviews for theirs.

Nobody ever told him why.

And again for him, so what? I don't really like the guy so he can figure that out for himself.

On the other hand. I have no issue with Bill.

So letting him walk out in front of a bus so I can say.

"So what?" Would make me the duchebag. Which to my own standards I try not to be.


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## drop bear (Jun 13, 2017)

Buka said:


> As a patron, I never frequented places where bouncers were douchebags. As a bouncer, I never worked with any. It was years ago, though, maybe things have changed.



It took me 20 years to learn how to not duchebag bounce. How to act in a manner that considers the needs of other people.

And it is especially relevant here because you take a person and put them in a strange environment and then go off at them because they dont understand the rules.

Happens in sales a lot. Which I notice because it was considered bad bouncing. 

And the trick is. You do an approach judge a reaction. If the reaction is bad. Dont consider it the fault of the other guy. Change the approach. The better your approach the better everyone else becomes. Seriously they get smarter and more pleasant.


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is one famous martial artist who complains he never gets asked to do seminars. Then complains his students get great reviews for theirs.
> 
> Nobody ever told him why.
> 
> And again for him, so what? I don't really like the guy so he can figure that out for himself.


That's nice.  Of course it has nothing to do with my assertion.



> On the other hand. I have no issue with Bill.
> 
> So letting him walk out in front of a bus so I can say.
> 
> "So what?" Would make me the duchebag. Which to my own standards I try not to be.


No offense, but did you have a point here?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2017)

lklawson said:


> That's nice.  Of course it has nothing to do with my assertion.
> 
> No offense, but did you have a point here?
> 
> ...



You supported your assertion with an anecdote about a martial artist. So I countered it with one.

And your assertion was So what? which is basically an assertion of everything.

I killed a puppy today.
So what?

I dont like the color yellow.
So what?

I feel creation is as valid as darwins evolution.
So what?

Not exactly high debate here is it?


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## lklawson (Jun 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You supported your assertion with an anecdote about a martial artist. So I countered it with one.
> 
> And your assertion was So what? which is basically an assertion of everything.
> 
> ...


Say it with me, "context."  Your above examples have no context related to the OP.  In contrast, your statement to which I replied was contextually related to the OP but still wasn't relevant to the discussion.  Your claim was that the OP was guilty of the same crime of which he was complaining.  Your second assertion is that his choice of how to select students is bad bouncing technique.  If there ever was an irrelevant equivalency, that is an example and heartily earns a "so what?"  The goals of selecting students are not equivalent to those of bouncing at all with the exception that both typically including humans and may sometimes lead to fighting.  

So, again, to recap: 

You think that the OP is guilty of being irritating on the phone (or something).  So what?  He can run his school however he wants.
You think that the OP is using bad bouncing technique.  So what?  He's running a martial arts school, not bouncing.
I kinda enjoy a lot of your posts, but the line of reasoning your following is, frankly, illogical.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2017)

lklawson said:


> Say it with me, "context."  Your above examples have no context related to the OP.  In contrast, your statement to which I replied was contextually related to the OP but still wasn't relevant to the discussion.  Your claim was that the OP was guilty of the same crime of which he was complaining.  Your second assertion is that his choice of how to select students is bad bouncing technique.  If there ever was an irrelevant equivalency, that is an example and heartily earns a "so what?"  The goals of selecting students are not equivalent to those of bouncing at all with the exception that both typically including humans and may sometimes lead to fighting.
> 
> So, again, to recap:
> 
> ...



The context is humans. That is the line of reasoning. On the phone where the customer does the wrong thing. In the pub where the patron does the wrong thing. And in sales in general were the only reason you have a salesperson is basically because everyone does the wrong thing.

And the way to get a large portion of them to do the right thing is to communicate that to the human in a way that they understand and can actually reasonably comply.

So what? Is the the break in logic. Nobody exept you has put forward the idea that if there was a way of getting the guy on the phone to come in. It would not be worth trying.

And hey at the end of the day If you don't like my logic.

So what?

It is my post and I can do what I like.


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## JR 137 (Jun 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You supported your assertion with an anecdote about a martial artist. So I countered it with one.
> 
> And your assertion was So what? which is basically an assertion of everything.
> 
> ...



Reminds me of Metallica's cover of "So What?!" by Anti-Nowhere League


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## Brmty2002 (Jun 14, 2017)

I am not a instructor, but this makes me angry when this happens. Either get your a** over here or quit calling me.


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## lklawson (Jun 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The context is humans. That is the line of reasoning.
> 
> [...]
> 
> And the way to get a large portion of them to do the right thing is to communicate that to the human in a way that they understand and can actually reasonably comply.


So your whole thesis is so generic and generalized that it is about anything having to do with "humans" just as much as with the OP?



> And hey at the end of the day If you don't like my logic.
> 
> So what?
> 
> It is my post and I can do what I like.


Sure.  If you want to post irrelevant stuff.


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> They are still a person. You either have the time to help them out or you don't.



The other side of that argument would be, "Yes, the caller is a person...but so are the students in the dojo who paid you to train them. They didn't pay so they can watch you talk on the phone."


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## wingchun100 (Jun 21, 2017)

You know what I think?

I'd really like a soda.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2017)

lklawson said:


> So your whole thesis is so generic and generalized that it is about anything having to do with "humans" just as much as with the OP?
> 
> Sure.  If you want to post irrelevant stuff.



Yes. You seem to think that is a bad thing.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> The other side of that argument would be, "Yes, the caller is a person...but so are the students in the dojo who paid you to train them. They didn't pay so they can watch you talk on the phone."



The better you can communicate the less time you will spend communicating.


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> You know what I think?
> 
> I'd really like a soda.



I like it too much.  I've got to cut back on it.  It's causing too many problems for me.


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## lklawson (Jun 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yes. You seem to think that is a bad thing.


No.  I seem to think that it has no relevance to this specific discussion.  Might as well argue about your favorite color.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2017)

my 2cents;
i worked in car sales for 7 years and owned my own construction company for many years where i had to do all the sales work.  the one thing i learned is ...people suck.  not everyone, but many.  there is a big difference between sales and customer service.  customer service should ALWAY be polite and friendly.  sales on the other hand has the responsibilty to weed out the people and jobs *you dont want.*  if you take a client or a job that is a royal PIA, it will cost you big time both in time and money not to mention your sanity.
in the martial art world taking on a student who has an attitude problem can cost you your dojo.  i have seen students you want to sue because they accidently got poked in the eye,  it wasnt a big deal, no damage to the eye just hurt a little. i have seen people who want to hurt other students,  flirt and date every female in the building, liars and theft.  there is also a community aspect to the school and if someone doesnt fit and doesnt get along with others the good students will quit.  
dont ever let bad people in the dojo.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> my 2cents;
> i worked in car sales for 7 years and owned my own construction company for many years where i had to do all the sales work.  the one thing i learned is ...people suck.  not everyone, but many.  there is a big difference between sales and customer service.  customer service should ALWAY be polite and friendly.  sales on the other hand has the responsibilty to weed out the people and jobs *you dont want.*  if you take a client or a job that is a royal PIA, it will cost you big time both in time and money not to mention your sanity.
> in the martial art world taking on a student who has an attitude problem can cost you your dojo.  i have seen students you want to sue because they accidently got poked in the eye,  it wasnt a big deal, no damage to the eye just hurt a little. i have seen people who want to hurt other students,  flirt and date every female in the building, liars and theft.  there is also a community aspect to the school and if someone doesnt fit and doesnt get along with others the good students will quit.
> dont ever let bad people in the dojo.



just proof reading my post ...there are students who want to sue the dojo,, not students that YOU want to sue.

the bottom line is one bad apple ruins the lot.  it has been my experience that if you have issues with a person on day one, things only get worse from there. they almost never get better.


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