# A theory on Ki and Chi



## Zenjael (Mar 7, 2012)

It is long known that the Japanese and Chinese share quite diverse views on the matter of existant forces such as ki and chi. These differences however are merely cultural divides very recent, and overdue from an occupation and since lingering resentment of one population on another.

The fact is, Japanese and Chinese culture, for as long as the former has existed, shared an influx of ideologies. Japanese martial arts, primordially, were emulated from northern style arts. 

When I strike, the energy flows from the ground, through my body, out my arm to the target. I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.

Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.

Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings, one over the other. While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being. Everyone has felt the presence of a master when they step in the square with them. Some have such great control over this bond, they can manifest this bond physically between themself and their desired subject. A quick search online gives a contemporary example of a man who can ring a bell by shouting. If you learn how to make a bowl of water ripple with your kiai, you've got the idea. 

But sound, too, is a physical force, and kinetic energy. The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.

Though they are indeed different, they both utilize the same element to gain control over the situation in totality, and ensure survival. And that is that they manipulate kinetic energy. 

When one can strike a series of touching, separate boards, and only break the last board, I would fear that man's strike.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2012)

Ki is the Japanese translation of Qi.

Best thing to say about QI
Storng Qi your healthy
Wwak Qi your Sick
No Qi your dead

Traditional Chinese for Qi and Japanese Kanji for Ki


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 7, 2012)

take your Ki or Qi, i'll take my sword.


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## K-man (Mar 8, 2012)

Mmmm! Your understanding of Ki and my understanding of Ki are about 180 degrees divergent.  Perhaps do a google search for a guy called Mike Sigman. He has written extensively on Ki and the internal martial arts.


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## clfsean (Mar 8, 2012)

K-man said:


> Mmmm! Your understanding of Ki and my understanding of Ki are about 180 degrees divergent.  Perhaps do a google search for a guy called Mike Sigman. He has written extensively on Ki and the internal martial arts.



Mike understands it very well to say the least.


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## oaktree (Mar 8, 2012)

> I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.
> 
> Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another


Here lies the confusion. You are speaking about one type of Qi &#27668; which is Human energy Ren Qi&#20154;&#27668;. To me you are describing Fa Jin &#21457;&#21170; which is how Qi can be used in striking. There is a saying in Chinese medicine" Qi xue tong yuan &#27668;&#34880;&#21516;&#28304;" this means blood and qi can not be seperated in humans. The best defination for Qi that makes sense is energy. 



> Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.


 Sounds like Chan si gong &#32544;&#19997;&#21151; or silk reeling we have this in Chen Taijiquan. Or as I said before Fa Jin &#21457;&#21170;. 



> Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings


 Ki=&#27668;  Qi=&#27668;. 



> While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being


In Chinese it is &#27668;&#21512; qi he so nothing really diffierent Chinese martial artist use this.



> The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.


 I think the correct word would be Yi &#24847; yi means your intent in which you direct things.


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## Zenjael (Mar 8, 2012)

Apologies for my lack of vernacular, I would agree with all that you wrote, though I wouldn't say anything necessarily disagree with what I did. All those things, seem to me, to utilize physical energy. Though it is not just for striking. In theory even our blood carries a flowing charge of kinetic energy from its very movement. I have trained with one individual who claimed to make use of it, and for such a small man, he hit hard enough that I could believe it. He had great internal control.


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## oaktree (Mar 8, 2012)

> Apologies for my lack of vernacular


 Its alright this site is for sharing, disagreements agreements opinions all are vaild.


> though I wouldn't say anything necessarily disagree with what I did. All those things, seem to me, to utilize physical energy


Qi can be *any *energy. 



> I have trained with one individual who claimed to make use of it, and for such a small man, he hit hard enough that I could believe it. He had great internal control.


 I am sure there is many of claim things like this. You can read Jadecloudalchemist post about Qi on martial talk they are very well done.


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## Zenjael (Jul 15, 2012)

> Qi can be *any *energy.



This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.

There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.

I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.

I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.


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## elder999 (Jul 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.



:lfao:.....just.....:lfao:






Zenjael said:


> There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike. I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.



I know that! I bet it's one of these:










Zenjael said:


> I've noticed while driving a car, so long as the wheels are adequately filled, the car uses the kinetic energy both to drive, coast, and stop. This is like saying the sky is blue. I have noticed however, if you submit your car to force, if the wheels are say not completely filled with air, it creates a kind of drag. If you accelerate to quickly, the car has a very noticeable rumble and shaking before it smooths out. Obviously one should fill the air in the tire to mitigate the damage to the car, but the feeling from this is the exact same, to me, that I experience when I throw those techniques.
> 
> I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. I hate using that latter word, 'force', but sometimes it really is the most fitting, or only one.




Then don't use it-that word-"force." Or "Energy." Or "ki." Or "kinetic," though you didn't do too badly with that one.....









Zenjael said:


> I hope that explains, adequately, how it feels when releasing that internalized force, to me. .






I will now waste a little bit of knowledge, because that's all I really profess to have.

If you think of your _ki_ as high pressure fire water, and your limbs as the hose, and think of what a fire hose does with the nozzle open, water flowing through it, _and no one holding it_, and what would happen if that nozzle suddenly shut-and, lastly, what it might be able to do with the nozzle open and someone holding the hose in place, you have a barely adequate metaphor for utilizing and releasing internal _*energy.*_

With that said, imagine the scenario where the hose nozzle is open and no one is holding it, and the nozzle suddenly shuts, but, in this instance, there's a weakness in the hose. 

I'm going to tell you that I bet you still have some hose strengthening to do-never mind the training and strength of your "firemen," you know, the guys that "hold the hose," but you're probably not gonna listen.......


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## Tez3 (Jul 15, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> This... is certainly true. I think you'll find that what I'm putting forward also explains how that can be. After all, raw kinetic energy is one of the best types of energy which can become, like qi, any type of energy.
> 
> *There is a noise I have heard my body make when I actually use internalized energy when executing a strike.* I've had great difficulty in describing it, but it literally sounds akin to shaking from too much force. I think, though, I can give an example which may give a good description of the feeling, even if its not necessarily for the same reason.
> 
> ...




I think that noise is probably wind, ask any BJJer or Judoka  :ultracool


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## oaktree (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi ZenJael,
Qi is a tricky word even in Chinese :lfao:. Trying to find an English translation can be a challenge. I say it means any type of energy before, but as I venture deeper into Chinese language I think it might be errorous, My wife being a native Chinese thinks Qi depending on the usage and the closest "catch all" English defination is energy. but in Chinese there are other words used to describe energy like kinetic energy Dong Neng &#21160;&#33021; which does not have the word Qi in it.like Dong means to do and Neng means like to do so you have do and do or doo doo and doo doo is a type of kinetic energy:lfao: 

As to how the word and meaning came to be you would have to be versed in classical Chinese and most likely a scholar in Chinese language which totally doesn't get you girls
just look at Thomas Clearly. 

I don't know what noise your body makes could be bad thats why it is so important to have a teacher to help you develop correctly and answer questions like that.

I have no idea what you mean with your car metaphor.


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## K-man (Jul 15, 2012)

Alex,the 'energy' of Ki could be several things but I would suggest kinetic energy isn't one of them.  I have friends whose idea of Ki is that Ki makes their body stronger so they can take a hit or hit harder.  This ties in with their understanding of Kata Sanchin and although I don't totally agree with what they believe I think they have part of the answer.  To me Ki is a little different. When you hit with Ki you actually don't have to hit as hard. That is why the atemi in aikido, if taught properly, is so effective.  That alone demonstrates that Ki is not kinetic energy. Ki is also utilised in many other ways but I hesitate in introducing another dimension into the discussion.   :asian:


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## WC_lun (Jul 16, 2012)

From my understanding, chi is basically just energy.  Human being, like any living being, uses energy to operate.  There are things that make the use and flow of that energy optimal and things that retard it. Through training a person may learn to manipulate that energy to a degree, but no amount of training can teach a person to break the laws of physics.

In my experience, people who focus on the chi aspect of training to get the mythical advantages are really missing seeing the forest for the trees.  If you want strong chi, be healthy and train properly.  There are no short cuts and having strong chi does not make you into some invulnerable fighter god.


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## Chris Parker (Jul 16, 2012)

Oh dear lord.... 



Zenjael said:


> It is long known that the Japanese and Chinese share quite diverse views on the matter of existant forces such as ki and chi. These differences however are merely cultural divides very recent, and overdue from an occupation and since lingering resentment of one population on another.



Hang on, how can a difference be "long known", and at the same time be "very recent"...? But more to the point, what on earth are you talking about? Ki IS Chi... same thing, same concept, same word, just different pronunciations in two languages. As a result, I think we can start to throw your theory out right about.... now.



Zenjael said:


> The fact is, Japanese and Chinese culture, for as long as the former has existed, shared an influx of ideologies. Japanese martial arts, primordially, were emulated from northern style arts.



Uh.... no. Just... no. To begin with, "emulated" doesn't make sense the way you're using it there, but when it comes to Japanese martial arts coming from Chinese Northern styles? I can think of perhaps a handful that might have had some influence (Akayama line of Yoshin Ryu), but the vast majority really don't have much connection to Chinese systems at all. There are a large number of reasons for this, by the way. 



Zenjael said:


> When I strike, the energy flows from the ground, through my body, out my arm to the target. I believe chi is just kinetic energy, expediantly conducted through our bodies. Our bones, hollow, create conduits to minimize this force naturally for structural integrity against stresses, and so in certain positions and alignments, kinetic energy can flow more condusively and cohesively.



Uh... no. Kinetic energy can be an expression of ki (as ki is really a name given to any form of "energy", as well as having a range of other contextual meanings), but that doesn't mean it's the same thing. When it comes to your take on anatomy, all I can say is stay in school, kid.



Zenjael said:


> Chi is the feeling of this utilization. It is the degree of control over channeling kinetic energy through oneself to another.



No it isn't.



Zenjael said:


> Ki however, is a force which operates by binding two beings, one over the other.


 
No, it isn't. And there is no difference between Ki and Chi.



Zenjael said:


> While many think kiai is to simply shout, it's really describing the bond created between two individuals by the sheer power of their being.



No it isn't. And there is no difference between Ki and Chi.



Zenjael said:


> Everyone has felt the presence of a master when they step in the square with them. Some have such great control over this bond, they can manifest this bond physically between themself and their desired subject.



Where have you gotten these ideas from?



Zenjael said:


> A quick search online gives a contemporary example of a man who can ring a bell by shouting. If you learn how to make a bowl of water ripple with your kiai, you've got the idea.



No, there's perfectly good physics reasons for how such things are done. It has nothing to do with ki/chi. You're falling for parlour tricks. 



Zenjael said:


> But sound, too, is a physical force, and kinetic energy. The difference is how it is utilized, with ki directing it manifestly externally, and chi doing so through internal contact.



Huh? And (one more time...) there is no difference between ki and chi.



Zenjael said:


> Though they are indeed different, they both utilize the same element to gain control over the situation in totality, and ensure survival. And that is that they manipulate kinetic energy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Hi ZenJael,
> Qi is a tricky word even in Chinese :lfao:. Trying to find an English translation can be a challenge. I say it means any type of energy before, but as I venture deeper into Chinese language I think it might be errorous, My wife being a native Chinese thinks Qi depending on the usage and the closest "catch all" English defination is energy. but in Chinese there are other words used to describe energy like kinetic energy Dong Neng &#21160;&#33021; which does not have the word Qi in it.like Dong means to do and Neng means like to do so you have do and do or doo doo and doo doo is a type of kinetic energy:lfao:
> 
> As to how the word and meaning came to be you would have to be versed in classical Chinese and most likely a scholar in Chinese language which totally doesn't get you girls
> ...



My wife, who is also a Chinese native, who is a Traditional Chinese Medical Doctor trained in China was absolutely amazed when she first came to this country at how many Americans know and teach Qigong. Then after she was here for a while she was absolutely amazed at how many of those that she first saw doing and teaching qigong don't really know anything about qigong or qi at all....


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## Cyriacus (Jul 16, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Some have such great control over this bond, they can manifest this bond physically between themself and their desired subject. A quick search online gives a contemporary example of a man who can ring a bell by shouting. If you learn how to make a bowl of water ripple with your kiai, you've got the idea.






Kiai-jutsu.

I couldnt resist.


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## Jenna (Jul 16, 2012)

I think conversations about internal energy most time fail to explain what is happening..

Me I say t*he proof of the ki is in the atemi*.. it cannot be explained properly.. only SHOWN!  I think the simplest way to demonstrate ki is to hit someone.. if you have it they will feel it beyond the extent of that strike.. if you do not have it then least everyone has a laugh and- per some of the aforementioned definition.. it seem laughs are energy therefore laughs are ki also?? Then in that spirit I would explain to you my ki.. so.. first of all.. get this.. a priest walks into a bar.. hmm maybe that is more one-inch-punch ki than yall could handle..


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## Zenjael (Jul 16, 2012)

Energy is energy. Since that is everything, to me, how I think of it as physical energy has made it easier for me to make the association between certain stances, mechanical motions for techniques, which can channel it better. I have found thinking of it like that has allowed me a much greater degree of control over it; but energy is just that, the undefinable ultimately, especially when it becomes something we arent just speaking of as a fighting mechanic, but also something which is spiritually pervasive throughout our art and being.

Kinetic energy is just, as a westerner, interpreting the esoteric definitions of chi. I just hope no one has walked away from this mistakenly thinking that, that is ALL I think 'chi' is.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 17, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Energy is energy.



Really? Kindly show us how you're going to start heating your house with kinetic energy rather than thermal.

"You can't fix stupid" - old EMS rule.


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 17, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Energy is energy. Since that is everything, to me, how I think of it as physical energy has made it easier for me to make the association between certain stances, mechanical motions for techniques, which can channel it better. I have found thinking of it like that has allowed me a much greater degree of control over it; but energy is just that, the undefinable ultimately, especially when it becomes something we arent just speaking of as a fighting mechanic, but also something which is spiritually pervasive throughout our art and being.
> 
> Kinetic energy is just, as a westerner, interpreting the esoteric definitions of chi. I just hope no one has walked away from this mistakenly thinking that, that is ALL I think 'chi' is.



This leads me to suspect SERIOUS deficiencies in your knowledge of ki and kinetic energy. 

Also...

"Mechanical motions for techniques "

..as opposed to non-mechanical motions? 

"Fighting mechanics "
You do NOT want to see what they can do with a socket wrench.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## WC_lun (Jul 17, 2012)

Anatomical motions for techniques, maybe?  Mechanical motions makes it sound like you have bionic body parts or something 

Zenjael, with all due respect, it sounds like you don't have a solid grasp on this subjest material.  You would be best served by just training and not trying to delve so much into the energy aspects of it, especially if you do not have an instructor that is very knowledgable in that area.  Otherwise you'll just be working on assumptions and theory that could be very flawed, actually retarding any positive training you are doing.


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## oaktree (Jul 17, 2012)

Hi ZenJael,
Looking at the diferent forms of energy may help in understanding the differences and how energy is converted.



> Kinetic energy is just, as a westerner, interpreting the esoteric definitions of chi


 Qi can be defined depending on its usage in everyday Chinese language. In English the two main usuage of Qi being discussed are the ones used in esoteric/religious and the defination used in every day talk refering to a "catch all for energy" 

 The esoteric meanings of Qi can not have a scientific defination for them anymore than God can be explained using science.

The esoteric meaning is full of superstitious, religous, taboo, mysticism, and that is fine if you are studying a religion but saying the esoteric meaning of Qi means Kinetic energy is saying something along the lines that Jesus was raised from the dead with kinetic energy
(In Daoism the priest uses the magic talisman called Fu &#31526; the priest puts his Qi &#28801;((a variant of Qi &#27668; This may be one example why so much confusion between esoteric vs everyday use)) and then raises the dead. 

The esoteric meaning with Qi belongs in the same catagory as magick which should be in the realm of religion.
Hopefully my post clears up some misunderstanding of translation of the words.  I am also not sure when terms such as deng neng(kinetic energy) were being used in Chinese language I heard it was after Newton and the idea of western physics. This subject depending on how deep you go and how much knowledge one has on the language can get pretty deep like professor level deep.


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## Jenna (Jul 17, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? Kindly show us how you're going to start heating your house with kinetic energy rather than thermal.


I think that is easy.. just connect the "line out" of the treadmill to the "line in" of the funace and *become* Usain Bolt like there is a ninja after you for crimes against philosophy! Bingo.. instant heat for all the family! Until the ninja catches up.. 

And but we need not fear even at that point!  Green energy is still on hand.. First, disable the ninja! then one kind of thermal energy may be converted to another by plugging the "line out" from ones mouth to the direct "line in" of one's heating system.. then one begins to verbally start explaining ki and voila.. Instant hot air for all the family! 

Ask me another..


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2012)

I have said this before and probably even in this thread.

Best definition of Qi and the easiest to get from a western perspective, 

Strong Qi you&#8217;re healthy
Weak Qi you&#8217;re sick
No Qi you&#8217;re dead

We tend to make it a whole lot more mystical than it is generally based on translation errors


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## oaktree (Jul 17, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have said this before and probably even in this thread.
> 
> Best definition of Qi and the easiest to get from a western perspective,
> 
> ...



Thats what I was trying to say, you just like to simplify things. :lol:


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 17, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Thats what I was trying to say, you just like to simplify things. :lol:




Ahh That is just my, get it over with and hit em', Xingyi side talking


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 17, 2012)

Jenna said:


> I think that is easy.. just connect the "line out" of the treadmill to the "line in" of the funace and *become* Usain Bolt like there is a ninja after you for crimes against philosophy! Bingo.. instant heat for all the family! Until the ninja catches up..
> 
> And but we need not fear even at that point!  Green energy is still on hand.. First, disable the ninja! then one kind of thermal energy may be converted to another by plugging the "line out" from ones mouth to the direct "line in" of one's heating system.. then one begins to verbally start explaining ki and voila.. Instant hot air for all the family!
> 
> Ask me another..




Nah... that's just a method for converting kinetic energy to thermal energy. If they were the same (as Zenjael mistakenly claims) then conversion would not be necessary.


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## shesulsa (Jul 17, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> It is long known that the Japanese and Chinese share quite diverse views on the matter of existant forces such as ki and chi. These differences however are merely cultural divides very recent, and overdue from an occupation and since lingering resentment of one population on another.
> 
> The fact is, Japanese and Chinese culture, for as long as the former has existed, shared an influx of ideologies. Japanese martial arts, primordially, were emulated from northern style arts.
> 
> ...



I think you're a young man in serious need of correct instruction. Leave the nest, Zen. Leave the nest. There's a whole world out there.


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