# Siu Lim Tao differences  Ip family



## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2011)

Ip Man





 
Ip Chun





 
Ip Ching


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2011)

I've come to the conclusion over the years that the mental process that is going on behind the movement , and that the movement itself is performed in a relaxed fashion is a lot more important than any cosmetic differences .

Variations in the height of the Bong Sau , Tan Sau etc don't really matter all that much in the grand scheme of things , it is the quality of the movement and the way that the mental force is focused that are essential.


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## geezer (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks _Xue_ for this useful side by side comparison. Anyone familiar with the diversity of interpretations of Siu Nim Tau within the Yip Man branch of WC would expect some variation in the articulation of certain techniques. Grandmaster Yip, I'm told, altered many details at different periods in his life.  But, one thing that jumps out immediately is that there are significant differences in the way the two Yip sons express their energy as well... and to my eye, neither approach their father in spite of the fact that he was already quite ill when that old black and white film was made. 

Another thing that caught my eye... All the versions of SNT I've seen performed by Grandmaster Yip's students begin each section of the form with the left hand, then repeat the movements with the right, as does Grandmaster Yip in the old film footage. Oddly, Yip Chun reverses this standard order.

I never put much credence in the rumors and bickering between Grandmaster Yip's former students, but sadly, I suspect there may be some basis in truth in the widespread assertion that skill in kung fu is not necessarily inherited. Regardless, thanks again for this useful post.


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## yak sao (Nov 27, 2011)

I noticed the hand switch too on Ip Chun. I had never noticed before. Has he always done that, and do all from his lineage do that as well?

When did his sons begin their training. Was it while still in fatshan or did they start in HK?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 27, 2011)

yak sao said:


> When did his sons begin their training. Was it while still in fatshan or did they start in HK?



Ip Chun Born born July 1924

From here




> Ip began studying Wing Chun with his father when he was seven years old. In 1949, after the Communists established the People's Republic of China on the mainland, Ip's father left for Hong Kong and Ip, then 24, remained in Foshan to continue his studies in university.



Ip Ching Born in 1936

From here



> Ip Ching (born in Foshan, China in 1936) is the second eldest son of Yip Man. At a young age Ip Ching started his training along with his brother Ip Chun, under his master Yip Man (also his father). However this was short lived as his father had to leave and travel to Hong Kong in search of a better life for his family. In 1962 Ip Ching and his older brother Ip Chun were reunited with their father in Hong Kong. They both resumed their training under Ip Man&#8217;s direct guidance.


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## geezer (Nov 27, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I noticed the hand switch too on Ip Chun. I had never noticed before. Has he always done that, and do all from his lineage do that as well?
> 
> When did his sons begin their training. Was it while still in fatshan or did they start in HK?



The Wikipedia references indicate that both Yip sons were exposed to their father's teachings while in Fatshan. Other sources claim that Yip Chun had no interest in his father's kung fu during that time, prefering to pursue his own interests such as music, while Yip Ching was too young to learn much before their father left for Hong Kong. Some report that the sons were also estranged from their father by the conditions under which he left the family, and either way, they came into to picture relatively late, only taking up Wing Chun more seriously later in life. But you have to be careful about what people say... as so many of the former students of Grandmaster Yip have very biased opinions. A very unkind saying that used to circulate went, "Yip Chun only knows half as much as Yip Ching... and Yip Ching knows nothing". Clearly, the Hong Kong WC family has some serious jealousies.


Regardless, beyond this hearsay, I really don't know anything, and hope that some knowledgeable people with _no axe to grind_ could shed some light on the matter.


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## yak sao (Nov 27, 2011)

I wonder if it would be different, had Yip Man named a successor, or would there still be all this infighting?

Infighting???....a little unintentional wing chun humor


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2011)

I have heard those stories as well , and from what I've read apparently Wong Shun Leung couldn't stand Ip Chun because when they were all training he would always be down the back playing his guitar.


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## geezer (Nov 28, 2011)

yak sao said:


> I wonder if it would be different, had Yip Man named a successor, or would there still be all this infighting?
> 
> Infighting???....a little unintentional wing chun humor



Ha ha! That's WC.... _the science of infighting!_ And no, IMHO. even naming a "successor" wouldn't have changed things. There would still be "secret successors", masters of the "original" version, the "final version" the "new version" the"internal version" the "fighting version" and so on... not to name all those guys from other lineages. Personally I favor the "inept version", that is to say WC modified for old, stiff, clumsy guys. (my personal style). If I can make it work, I guarantee anybody can. You may find better, but this is good enough! 




mook jong man said:


> I have heard those stories as well , and from what I've read apparently Wong Shun Leung couldn't stand Ip Chun because when they were all training he would always be down the back playing his guitar.



Dang, I think I like Master Yip Chun better already. I mean really, if you are not instinctively a fighter (like WSL) martial arts should not absorb your entire life. There should be space for music and art. You know, some _balance_ in your life. Besides, It reminds me of my own home. My 13 year-old son refuses to have anything to do with WC. He also would rather practice his guitar than do that boring stuff that dad does with his wierd old (anyone over age 20) students. On the positive side, finally he is studying TKD.... with "a real sensei" instead of dad. It works for me. Keeps him off the video games for a little while, gives him some exercise, and as long as he keeps training a style that suits his short-legged physique as poorly as TKD, I don't have to worry about the day he'll be able to finally beat me for a long, long time.:ultracool


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 1, 2011)

Er, has anyone mentioned that Yip Man taught sil nim tao various different ways to his students? One of the reasons was that his students were of different size and used different energy. Another rumour was that he did it so that he would know which instructor a student had learned from when they visited him...

I noticed when I went to Hong Kong that Ip Chun did the form differently to the above video. My advice is that however you do sil nim tao - make sure you know why you do it the way you do. Forms change, styles change. Wing chun is one of the most modified styles out there, and the reason is that it constantly evolves


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## procmail (Dec 2, 2011)

The reason GM Ip Chun was doing the form with right hand first is because the video is mirror reversed. 

The Chinese words are all flipped. 

Here's another version of this video. Start from 2:35 or so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTR0NkP4Ors&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 2, 2011)

geezer said:


> so many of the former students of Grandmaster Yip have very biased opinions. A very unkind saying that used to circulate went, "Yip Chun only knows half as much as Yip Ching... and Yip Ching knows nothing". Clearly, the Hong Kong WC family has some serious jealousies.



Well I have no political affiliation to the Yip family. My small experience of Ip Chun and his teaching was that he was not interested in fighting or practical application, but preferred a more internal way of training. His chi sao is the best I have ever come across (old school), and he knew a hell of a lot more about wing chun than most masters I have seen out there. 

Yip Ching was friendly, positive and preferred more practical elements of wing chun. His third form blew me away and he had a great attitude

My only regret was that Ip Chun refused to teach me when I was over there (I was only allowed to watch a short part of the lesson, even though I snuck back again the next day), even though I offered to pay a good deal of money. I have no idea why this was and the guy has every right to teach whomever he wants. Just a bit sad as I felt I could have learnt a great deal from him.


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2011)

KamonGuy2 said:


> My small experience of Ip Chun and his teaching was that he was not interested in fighting or practical application...



One reason why some of his peers are not complimentary about his WC.




KamonGuy2 said:


> ...he knew a hell of a lot more about wing chun than most masters I have seen out there.



A bigger reason why people talk trash. Rumors like this can be bad for business!


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 4, 2011)

geezer said:


> One reason why some of his peers are not complimentary about his WC.
> 
> A bigger reason why people talk trash. Rumors like this can be bad for business!



Its sad that happens. No matter what people say, the man has great skill. Im aware that he has a couple of youtube clips where he states that he uses wing chun more for his internal health - this impresses me because he is open and honest about the art. It would be very easy for him to cash in and say that his wing chun style is deadly and the best for self defence etc. But his honesty impresses me - something some masters should strive to emulate...


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## Domino (Dec 7, 2011)

Procmail beat me to it.
I prefer to just see it as the yin and the yang, easier that way.
This is what we are told after so much learning... to make it our own, 1 idea might work for one person but definately not for another... as I have found out. Not really a good explanation but slight differences from playing around and finding stuff out.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2012)

Not Ip family but more Siu Lim Tau differences

Samuel Kwok






Augustine Fong


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## Nabakatsu (Jul 26, 2012)

Struck me as odd that Sam kwoks thumbs are tucked in front of his hand for delivering palm strikes/biu sau. (bil sau/finger thrust)
I liked fongs double punches, but it was odd to me how he traveled so much distance to deliver his pak sau and than strike in the 5th section.


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## WingChunIan (Jul 28, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I noticed the hand switch too on Ip Chun. I had never noticed before. Has he always done that, and do all from his lineage do that as well?
> 
> When did his sons begin their training. Was it while still in fatshan or did they start in HK?



Nope, we are taught to traditionally start with the left hand and Si Gung Ip Chun more often than not starts on the left. I don't know why he starts on the right in the clip but ultimately it doesn't matter. The order is irrelevant. SNT is about principles not the order that actions are performed.


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## WingChunIan (Jul 28, 2012)

geezer said:


> The Wikipedia references indicate that both Yip sons were exposed to their father's teachings while in Fatshan. Other sources claim that Yip Chun had no interest in his father's kung fu during that time, prefering to pursue his own interests such as music, while Yip Ching was too young to learn much before their father left for Hong Kong. Some report that the sons were also estranged from their father by the conditions under which he left the family, and either way, they came into to picture relatively late, only taking up Wing Chun more seriously later in life. But you have to be careful about what people say... as so many of the former students of Grandmaster Yip have very biased opinions. A very unkind saying that used to circulate went, "Yip Chun only knows half as much as Yip Ching... and Yip Ching knows nothing". Clearly, the Hong Kong WC family has some serious jealousies.
> 
> 
> Regardless, beyond this hearsay, I really don't know anything, and hope that some knowledgeable people with _no axe to grind_ could shed some light on the matter.



Actually, the senior members of the Wing Chun community in Hong Kong all get on reasonably well. The very sad politics normally arise with those who move overseas. There is another old saying "those who know least shout the loudest"


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## WingChunIan (Jul 28, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> I have heard those stories as well , and from what I've read apparently Wong Shun Leung couldn't stand Ip Chun because when they were all training he would always be down the back playing his guitar.


You should be careful about idle gossip, i heard.... my sifu said that his sifu said that..... its worse than the playground. WSL and Ip Chun always appeared to get on perfectly well as far as I can see. As I've said many times, there will always be politics when money enters the equation but it does seem to be those that have travelled furthest from HK that tell the tallest stories.


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## WingChunIan (Jul 28, 2012)

KamonGuy2 said:


> Well I have no political affiliation to the Yip family. My small experience of Ip Chun and his teaching was that he was not interested in fighting or practical application, but preferred a more internal way of training. His chi sao is the best I have ever come across (old school), and he knew a hell of a lot more about wing chun than most masters I have seen out there.
> 
> Yip Ching was friendly, positive and preferred more practical elements of wing chun. His third form blew me away and he had a great attitude
> 
> My only regret was that Ip Chun refused to teach me when I was over there (I was only allowed to watch a short part of the lesson, even though I snuck back again the next day), even though I offered to pay a good deal of money. I have no idea why this was and the guy has every right to teach whomever he wants. Just a bit sad as I felt I could have learnt a great deal from him.



Its a shame that you didn't get to train with si gung. When did you go over? The films meant alot of random folks turned up hoping to get taught and one always has to be careful of those who want to train a few times and then claim provenence. That said the VTAA and Sha tin classes have always been open to visitors so you must have been really unlucky. 
As an aside Some of si gung's direct students are awesome fighters (including my own sifu) and have answered many challenges over the years.


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