# Do BETTER martial artists train ONE art or MANY arts?



## Jenna (Mar 16, 2015)

To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 16, 2015)

I think you are going to get mixed answers on this question. 
  Many will say that to perfect your art you stay within your original art.  Others are going to say that you should cross train at some point to learn things that are not necessarily covered in you chosen art.
  If your first art dose not meet the needs you have  or is not what you wanted to learn then change and learn a new one.  If your happy with the first art then you need to stay with it until you master it.
  As far as studying many or several at the same time, I do not recommend this until you have a firm grasp of the first one.


----------



## MJS (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



Hi Jenna! Welcome back!   I suppose it'll come down to the individual who's training, but for me, I'm a big advocate of cross training.  For me, I feel that having a base in 1 art first, is a good idea.  Personally, I love training.  I love to learn.  That said, if I can learn from another art, to make myself better, I'm all for it!


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



Yes.

Less snarkily: there are great martial artists who have trained in only one art. There are great martial artists who have trained in many arts. What counts is the training. If you put in long hours of consistent, high-quality training, you will get good.


----------



## Matt Bryers (Mar 16, 2015)

I love what Tony said!

I think that once you devote enough time to a certain martial arts, you start developing your own unique "style" and way of fighting.  Sometimes you branch out of your own martial arts to pursue others that may fill in a gap of your current MA.  

Basically the Jeet Kune Do Concept.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 16, 2015)

Hello, Jenna. 

I think it'd depend on what your definition of "better" is. Are we looking at form? Personal development and code of conduct? Or combat proficiency in the streets? 

I personally support cross training to fill in plugs in your primary art of choice. Where I come from, martial society has welded several different styles into a loose hybrid system (Systema), and has added heavily to Japanese Judo to come up with something that closely resembles modern MMA (Sambo).


----------



## Jenna (Mar 16, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Hello, Jenna.
> 
> I think it'd depend on what your definition of "better" is. Are we looking at form? Personal development and code of conduct? Or combat proficiency in the streets?
> 
> I personally support cross training to fill in plugs in your primary art of choice. Where I come from, martial society has welded several different styles into a loose hybrid system (Systema), and has added heavily to Japanese Judo to come up with something that closely resembles modern MMA (Sambo).


Hello back to you my friend  I would be interested to know what is your (or any one elses) definition of a better martial artist.. and then by that definition in order to become that better martial artist why do you think is it best to train in the one system solely or many systems? It concerns gains and losses taking one path over the other I think, yes? Jx


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Hello back to you my friend  I would be interested to know what is your (or any one elses) definition of a better martial artist.. and then by that definition in order to become that better martial artist why do you think is it best to train in the one system solely or many systems? It concerns gains and losses taking one path over the other I think, yes? Jx


For me it'd be efficient and street-smart combat proficiency with a Stoic attitude toward the self. I imagine the gentleman/woman citizen who's confident enough not to posture, analytic but not callous, and with a genuine concern for his/her surroundings and the immediate community. He'd/she'd be calm and controlled, but would always diligently practice because the time it will be needed is hidden, so readiness and the resolve to take immediate action and do what is necessary is of supreme importance.

That's just my take on what an ideal martial artist would be, though I admit I may have been reading too much Kropotkin.

Yours, friend?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



There is no difference; Several arts at once, several arts over a period of years, one art..... all can make a good martial artist. It depends on what the martial artist is after, how they define a "better marital artist" and how much time they want to dedicate.


----------



## Mephisto (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd say do both. In my case I've been in one art for nearly 10 years and sampled other arts along the way, but maintained the same base art. Exposure to other systems and ways of thinking has strengthened my understanding of my core system. I advocate training with as many different people as you can to see all the possibilities of application.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 16, 2015)

Better than who?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Better than who?



This question immediately reminds me of Leslie Fish's thoughts on the matter:

Chorus:
Better than who? (better than who)
The scores aren't in. (the scores aren't in)
Let the gods of evolution say who'll win.
Better at what? (better at what)
In what way? (in what way)
Let the gods of evolution have their say.

I'm better than you at shooting,
You're better than me with a knife.
Who's to say which tool works better when the punks come for your life?
You're better than me at karate,
I'm better than you with a stick.
Do you really want to walk through the slums tonight, let the old gods take their pick?

I'm better at breathing pollution,
You're better at avoiding colds.
Which of us will last the longer in the worst the future holds?
You're better at surviving bug bites,
I'm better at eating junk.
If civilization sinks tomorrow, which of us would be sunk?

I'm better at training horses,
You're better at fixing cars.
Which will be in more demand at the next turn of the stars?
You're better at hunting rabbits,
I'm better at making fire.
Which of those skills can better fulfill what tomorrow might require?

I'm better at growing gardens,
You're better at counting cash.
Which will serve us best tomorrow, the money or the stash?
You're better at working computers,
I'm better at making a song.
Which will put more food on the table if the world goes right or wrong?

(musical interlude)
You're better at playing dominance,
I'm better at making friends.
What works better, whether or not civilization ends?
Nobody knows the future,
Or what skill betters the odds.
So it's best to say we're all born equal and leave the rest to the gods.

Let the gods of evolution have their say


----------



## Steve (Mar 16, 2015)

Tony, that you know who Leslie Fish is tells me a lot about you.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2015)

Steve said:


> Tony, that you know who Leslie Fish is tells me a lot about you.


I have listened to her play in person beside a campfire at Pennsic on a couple of occasions, although I was familiar with her work years previously.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others?


It depends on your own desire. When you see someone applies a technique such as

- MT flying knee,
- TKD flying side kick,
- Judo leg lift (Uchi Mata),
- Shuai-Chiao leg twist,
- ...

that you don't know how to do it, do you have the desire to learn it?

When Bill Gates saw the Apply Lisa desktop user interface, he said, "I want it.". He then evolve his DOS into MS Window. Without that desire, today we may still type on our keyboard such as

dir *xyz* /s /p, ...


----------



## K-man (Mar 16, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx


I'll repost the OP because we are starting to wander.

Like the answer to a lot of questions, it depends. If you *really have* a great instructor (which is different to *believing* you have a great instructor) then all you need to know should be available to you in a single MA. The irony is, a really great instructor will probably invite you to explore the other martial arts to expand your understanding.

Unfortunately few of us are in that situation so I would suggest it is of value to most people to cross train once they have a reasonable understanding of their base style. The important thing is to chose an art that complements your training, not one that replicates it.


----------



## toddfletcher (Mar 16, 2015)

I think of all "styles" are aspects of the same mountain. The more I train and the more I meet others who have trained for a long time, the more similarities I see. IMO, all martial arts have the common denominator of the human body. It you want to master the movement of your body such that others cannot harm you, and you can dominate them, then ultimately many of the same conclusions will be reached. 

The problem is we live such short lives, that we cannot never fully master the entire mountain. Any as irony would have it, as we invest enough time in various aspects - our age starts to catch up with us. Be REALLY good at a single aspect of the arts, or have a working knowledge of many movements? My guess is the latter would be more versatile and therefore more applicable in more applications, but the truly incredible master of a single movement will be devastating in that focused area. Who is better? hm...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2015)

Don't mix Kenpo with TKD. One will dominate the other.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2015)

I once tried mixing a Southern Wu (competition) Taijiquan form with Yang and Chen.... Everything started to look like Wu style so I stopped doing it


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Don't mix Kenpo with TKD. One will dominate the other.



And how did you arrive at this conclusion?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And how did you arrive at this conclusion?


What do you choose in a fight? Kenpo Kicking or Tkd Kicking. If you choose TKD kicking, when were you planning on using kenpo?


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 16, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> ...  As far as studying many or several at the same time, I do not recommend this until you have a firm grasp of the first one.


|
I think it best to devote yourself to one primary art.  I train a basic style of traditional karate for the reason given in the quote.  I think it best to be master of the simple rather than fail at trying to simplify the masterful.


----------



## Tames D (Mar 16, 2015)

As much as I hate Bruce Lee quotes, I have to say I believe in adapting what is useful and reject what is useless. I borrow from many styles/systems.


----------



## Steve (Mar 16, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It depends on your own desire. When you see someone applies a technique such as
> 
> - MT flying knee,
> - TKD flying side kick,
> ...


Fwiw, Apple stole the interface from Amiga, which was several years ahead of its time.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> What do you choose in a fight? Kenpo Kicking or Tkd Kicking. If you choose TKD kicking, when were you planning on using kenpo?


When I need a cool, oriental-esque esoteric-sounding name of a technique to shout while executing it!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

Steve said:


> Fwiw, Apple stole the interface from Amiga, which was several years ahead of its time.


Since the early Apple guys came from Zerox. I believe Apple got their desktop UI from Zerox Star (a close system word processor). When Bill Gates got his Window UI from Apple Lisa, I got the same technology from Zerox Star back in 1984. If the IBM vice president didn't cancel my ACE project (IBM believed PC hardware market was what they were interested in at that period of time), it could be hard to know whether MS would win or IBM would win the PC software market in that competition.

It's hard to believe that I had competed against Bill Gates head on once in my life.


----------



## Instructor (Mar 17, 2015)

One.... for a good long while.....


Then many...


----------



## MJS (Mar 17, 2015)

Lots of very good points in this post.  To comment on each part:  




K-man said:


> I'll repost the OP because we are starting to wander.
> 
> Like the answer to a lot of questions, it depends. If you *really have* a great instructor (which is different to *believing* you have a great instructor) then all you need to know should be available to you in a single MA. The irony is, a really great instructor will probably invite you to explore the other martial arts to expand your understanding.



Very true.  Can't really add much more to this.



> Unfortunately few of us are in that situation so I would suggest it is of value to most people to cross train once they have a reasonable understanding of their base style. The important thing is to chose an art that complements your training, not one that replicates it.



Couldn't agree more with this!  I've been training for 20+ years, and while I do like to give credit to the people I've came across during the years, I can literally use 1 hand, to count the number of people that were actually worth training with.  Sad I know. But I look at it like this...sometimes you have to wade through the garbage to find the rare, hidden gems.  They're certainly out there, but as you said, they're few and far between.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 17, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> For me it'd be efficient and street-smart combat proficiency with a Stoic attitude toward the self. I imagine the gentleman/woman citizen who's confident enough not to posture, analytic but not callous, and with a genuine concern for his/her surroundings and the immediate community. He'd/she'd be calm and controlled, but would always diligently practice because the time it will be needed is hidden, so readiness and the resolve to take immediate action and do what is necessary is of supreme importance.
> 
> That's just my take on what an ideal martial artist would be, though I admit I may have been reading too much Kropotkin.
> 
> Yours, friend?


I like how you see this  It is idealistic? Jxx

(kropotkin would have an even harder time today persuading consumers that their blind infatuation with their iphones it is not mutual!)


----------



## Jenna (Mar 17, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Better than who?


whomever you would want to be better than in any part of your martial practices.. Jx


----------



## Jenna (Mar 17, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'd say do both. In my case I've been in one art for nearly 10 years and sampled other arts along the way, but maintained the same base art. Exposure to other systems and ways of thinking has strengthened my understanding of my core system. I advocate training with as many different people as you can to see all the possibilities of application.


Different PEOPLE now this is the wiser way imo.. training / sparring with as many different people from as wide a gamut of arts possible.. this is the most world- or street-wise approach I believe as it allows contact with as many variant fighting styles without having to sacrifice the time in mastery of ones OWN art by splitting that time over many arts.. it furthermore provides an empirical trial by fire of ones technique.. yes I agree with this and like that you advocate it also! Jxx


----------



## Steve (Mar 17, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Since the early Apple guys came from Zerox. I believe Apple got their desktop UI from Zerox Star (a close system word processor). When Bill Gates got his Window UI from Apple Lisa, I got the same technology from Zerox Star back in 1984. If the IBM vice president didn't cancel my ACE project (IBM believed PC hardware market was what they were interested in at that period of time), it could be hard to know whether MS would win or IBM would win the PC software market in that competition.
> 
> It's hard to believe that I had competed against Bill Gates head on once in my life.


 I stand corrected.  There was a lot of cross pollination back then.  I was remembering back to when windows and the MAC were both stealing liberally from the Amiga GUI.  That was an exciting time.  I will never forget someone who told me that when I get my x286 computer, I was wasting my money if I didn't run OS/2 because I wouldn't be able to multi-task.    Fun times and thanks for the correction.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 17, 2015)

Steve said:


> I stand corrected.  There was a lot of cross pollination back then.  I was remembering back to when windows and the MAC were both stealing liberally from the Amiga GUI.  That was an exciting time.  I will never forget someone who told me that when I get my x286 computer, I was wasting my money if I didn't run OS/2 because I wouldn't be able to multi-task.    Fun times and thanks for the correction.



it is uncanny how much OS/2 looks like Windows 3.1 too


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> it is uncanny how much OS/2 looks like Windows 3.1 too


Back in 1983 - 1984, IBM worked with Bill Gates to develop OS/2 by both parties together in the IBM Austin site. One day when the fist Window was announced, IBM then suddenly waked up. IBM then tried to announce that OS/2 is better than Window, but IBM was soon defeated in that market. Today the OS/2 has been shipped to India and put in some boxes in some warehouse.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 17, 2015)

ah did I miss something I thought this thread was about 
*Do BETTER martial artists train ONE art or MANY arts? *
not about computers

So can we get back on topic


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> ah did I miss something I thought this thread was about
> *Do BETTER martial artists train ONE art or MANY arts? *
> not about computers
> 
> So can we get back on topic


I assume we can use "woman" as example too. *Is it better to have one wife or many wives? *After you have married for 20 years, one day you may want to promote your wife from "wife" to "number one wife".  When you train many arts, you will have "major" and "minor".

If the MA system that you train only uses the "keyboard input", one day when you see another MA system that uses the "mouse input", will you be interested to learn that new approach? We are talking about MA "evolution" here. If you just train one art, you won't have enough desire/motivation to "evolve". The DOS evolved into Window history is used just for an "evolution" example.

If you train

- boxing only, you won't have grabbing concept.
- Judo only, you won't have striking concept.

When you have trained both arts, your

- boxing knowledge will help you to "evolve" your "Judo set up",
- Judo knowledge will help you to "evolve" your "boxing clinch".


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 17, 2015)

ok thanks for that explanation but it looked like it was going to continue to be about computers so I posted  but thanks


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> What do you choose in a fight? Kenpo Kicking or Tkd Kicking. If you choose TKD kicking, when were you planning on using kenpo?



It is positional. I do karate kicks and Thai kicks depending on what I think will hit with the most advantage at the time.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

I have mentioned this before. Top mma fighters who you may think in theory would be training mma from sun up to down down don't.

They train in specific different martial arts as well as combining it. And this means in the gi getting the belts the whole lot.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I have mentioned this before. Top mma fighters who you may think in theory would be training mma from sun up to down down don't.
> 
> They train in specific different martial arts as well as combining it. And this means in the gi getting the belts the whole lot.



I give this example all the time,

Most of the best UFC fighters throughout its lifespan ahold multiple high ranks in multiple arts. They're usually BB's, even many even choose to study new arts while training in MMA, even at the UFC level. Anthony Pettis started capoeira after his debut I believe


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I give this example all the time,
> 
> Most of the best UFC fighters throughout its lifespan ahold multiple high ranks in multiple arts. They're usually BB's, even many even choose to study new arts while training in MMA, even at the UFC level. Anthony Pettis started capoeira after his debut I believe



bjj is moving towards that idea as well. Generally cross training in judo.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> bjj is moving towards that idea as well. Generally cross training in judo.


Which is a terrific idea. Each plugs a gap in the other across the broad spectrum of techniques found in the art of grappling.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> What do you choose in a fight? Kenpo Kicking or Tkd Kicking. If you choose TKD kicking, when were you planning on using kenpo?



The same way I choose any other technique in a fight. By deciding what is most likely to be the most effective under the specific circumstances at the time.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> bjj is moving towards that idea as well. Generally cross training in judo.


... and/or wrestling and/or sambo.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> ... and/or wrestling and/or sambo.



And the interesting thing is that the cross training is geared not towards filling a gap in what you don't do. Striking,knife fighting,motorcycle racing. But to enhance what you do.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And the interesting thing is that the cross training is geared not towards filling a gap in what you don't do. Striking,knife fighting,motorcycle racing. But to enhance what you do.


"Motorcycle Racing" LOL


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The same way I choose any other technique in a fight. By deciding what is most likely to be the most effective under the specific circumstances at the time.


If your TKD kick worked, wouldn't you naturally follow with more TKD?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If your TKD kick worked, wouldn't you naturally follow with more TKD?



Not necessarily you next kick could be different to keep the other guy off balance.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 18, 2015)

"Better" is kind of a fuzzy word here...  Better by what criteria?  If by better you mean a world champion Judo player, well you should probably stick to Judo.  Champion Boxer? stick to boxing.  Unless better means "well-rounded" and able to work in any situation (on the ground, striking, range of weapons, etc.) then you will probably be cross-training a fair bit.  Or maybe better just means it has the strongest effect on your health and well being?  Then maybe it changes as your body changes, maybe you start in wrestling as a kid and are doing Tai-Chi at 75 years old. 

I think as long as you are still having fun, learning, improving and staying healthy you are on the right path and the rest doesn't really matter much.  If it's just staying where you are to grind out another belt and not really getting anywhere it's time to switch things up.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If your TKD kick worked, wouldn't you naturally follow with more TKD?



Have I ever given the impression that I think there is only one valid solution to any particular situation?

Sometimes a kick to the head is the best solution. Sometimes a twist to the wrist is. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 18, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> "Better" is kind of a fuzzy word here...  Better by what criteria?  If by better you mean a world champion Judo player, well you should probably stick to Judo.  Champion Boxer? stick to boxing.  Unless better means "well-rounded" and able to work in any situation (on the ground, striking, range of weapons, etc.) then you will probably be cross-training a fair bit.  Or maybe better just means it has the strongest effect on your health and well being?  Then maybe it changes as your body changes, maybe you start in wrestling as a kid and are doing Tai-Chi at 75 years old.
> 
> I think as long as you are still having fun, learning, improving and staying healthy you are on the right path and the rest doesn't really matter much.  If it's just staying where you are to grind out another belt and not really getting anywhere it's time to switch things up.


what would you yourself regard as a better / best kind of martial artist can I ask? Jx


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Have I ever given the impression that I think there is only one valid solution to any particular situation?
> 
> Sometimes a kick to the head is the best solution. Sometimes a twist to the wrist is.
> 
> ...


I don't speak for all Kenpo, but kenpo is about limiting yourself to the ideas taught in the first twenty or thirty tech ideas, which means you should look like you are doing a technique, even if you aren't. So, my kenpo is a lot like Wing Chun, in that respect. Now, add TKD to that, and it becomes unlimited. That sounds like what you want; so, we both win!!!!!


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 18, 2015)

Jenna said:


> what would you yourself regard as a better / best kind of martial artist can I ask? Jx



For me, being well rounded and learning as much as possible, not seeing things as separate "styles", it's all martial arts, take the parts that fit with what you do from anywhere you can and make it your own.  Regardless of how you define "art" in the sense of martial arts it's not about imitation only, but creativity.  Whether it is for aesthetic value, or as a skill (like woodworking) it should not be about doing your best to do things like someone else.  That's a good place to start, just as it is in painting and woodworking, but if you stop at imitation without making your own you'll never be "great".


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If your TKD kick worked, wouldn't you naturally follow with more TKD?


Why would you think that? If your first technique was effective, then the situation has now changed. Your opponent may now be at a different distance, moving in a different direction, attempting a different tactic, and reacting differently. There may be other tactical factors which have changed as well. Use the technique which is most appropriate for the moment at hand, not the moment that is past.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 18, 2015)

Andrew Green said:


> For me, being well rounded and learning as much as possible, not seeing things as separate "styles", it's all martial arts, take the parts that fit with what you do from anywhere you can and make it your own.  Regardless of how you define "art" in the sense of martial arts it's not about imitation only, but creativity.  Whether it is for aesthetic value, or as a skill (like woodworking) it should not be about doing your best to do things like someone else.  That's a good place to start, just as it is in painting and woodworking, but if you stop at imitation without making your own you'll never be "great".


I like that removal of the barriers idea that you suggest.. I wonder can well-rounded, learning as much as possible and making an art your own to be as you say "great".. can these things happen through the study of one art / style / school of thought or system exclusively do you think? Jx


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Why would you think that? If your first technique was effective, then the situation has now changed. Your opponent may now be at a different distance, moving in a different direction, attempting a different tactic, and reacting differently. There may be other tactical factors which have changed as well. Use the technique which is most appropriate for the moment at hand, not the moment that is past.


Isn't there supposed to be a flow?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Isn't there supposed to be a flow?


The normal flow will be kick -> punch -> clinch -> throw -> ground game.


----------



## toddfletcher (Mar 18, 2015)

I'll throw this out there.
I understand and have discussed the flow of fighting countless times over the years. Often each stage of the 'flow' is assigned certain styles. However, I would pose the question, if one planned on having to move through this flow during a fight, does that mean one plans to fail at all stages until the end? I realize that is a safer bet, but I have seen incredible kickers who would put you down with incredible deftness. I spoke with some younger guys (20's) that talk about needing to focus on BJJ "since all fights eventually go to the ground". But then I see their kicks and strikes and they suck (and obvious lack of sufficient training).. so of course they fail and have to fall into a clinch/throw/ground path. NOTE: I hold no disrespect for BJJ or any ground styles. I am studying Judo ATM to improve my own - as the majority of my training has been TKD & Kenpo. However I hold to the fact that if I could use my kicks to their fullest, their would be blown out knees, broken ribs, and head trauma before I 'fell' into the later half of said flow.

I am curious if anyone agrees, and not and why. TIA.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> bjj is moving towards that idea as well. Generally cross training in judo.


That is not 'cross training' that is 'Returning to its Roots'.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

toddfletcher said:


> I'll throw this out there.
> I understand and have discussed the flow of fighting countless times over the years. Often each stage of the 'flow' is assigned certain styles. However, I would pose the question, if one planned on having to move through this flow during a fight, does that mean one plans to fail at all stages until the end? I realize that is a safer bet, but I have seen incredible kickers who would put you down with incredible deftness. I spoke with some younger guys (20's) that talk about needing to focus on BJJ "since all fights eventually go to the ground". But then I see their kicks and strikes and they suck (and obvious lack of sufficient training).. so of course they fail and have to fall into a clinch/throw/ground path. NOTE: I hold no disrespect for BJJ or any ground styles. I am studying Judo ATM to improve my own - as the majority of my training has been TKD & Kenpo. However I hold to the fact that if I could use my kicks to their fullest, their would be blown out knees, broken ribs, and head trauma before I 'fell' into the later half of said flow.
> 
> I am curious if anyone agrees, and not and why. TIA.


I agree you can use TKD to avoid using Kenpo.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Isn't there supposed to be a flow?



Yes and no. If you stick to a pattern it is easier to predict. Left hand,right hand,left kick and so on. Everything at the same speed and the same power.

But you can mix all of that up and keep the opponent guessing.
a flick out right round kick a hard left hook a hard right hand a hard right round kick.
so you are not always hitting like you are expected to.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes and no. If you stick to a pattern it is easier to predict. Left hand,right hand,left kick and so on. Everything at the same speed and the same power.
> 
> But you can mix all of that up and keep the opponent guessing.
> a flick out right round kick a hard left hook a hard right hand a hard right round kick.
> so you are not always hitting like you are expected to.


None of that was kenpo, but yeah,,, keep 'em guessing is cool.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> None of that was kenpo,* but yeah,,, keep 'em guessing is cool.*



Quite


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yes and no. If you stick to a pattern it is easier to predict. Left hand,right hand,left kick and so on. Everything at the same speed and the same power.
> 
> But you can mix all of that up and keep the opponent guessing.
> a flick out right round kick a hard left hook a hard right hand a hard right round kick.
> so you are not always hitting like you are expected to.


None of that was kenpo, but yeah,,, keep 'em guessing is cool. 


drop bear said:


> Yes and no. If you stick to a pattern it is easier to predict. Left hand,right hand,left kick and so on. Everything at the same speed and the same power.
> 
> But you can mix all of that up and keep the opponent guessing.
> a flick out right round kick a hard left hook a hard right hand a hard right round kick.
> so you are not always hitting like you are expected to.


But seriously, intead of a hook I would throw the same move from the same spot, but drop the foot back so it becomes a straight shot, making it kenpo-ish, but it opens you up to use a big TKD or Muay Thai round house, if you so desire, but we don't do a lot of hooks.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

The Kenpo answer would be to slip behind him and stomp the back of his ankle, Duh!


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> None of that was kenpo, but yeah,,, keep 'em guessing is cool.
> 
> But seriously, intead of a hook I would throw the same move from the same spot, but drop the foot back so it becomes a straight shot, making it kenpo-ish, but it opens you up to use a big TKD or Muay Thai round house, if you so desire, but we don't do a lot of hooks.



But everything at the same speed and power seems quite protracted, surely that kick would be the end game. Sorry, don't understand non variable pace?


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> The Kenpo answer would be to slip behind him and stomp the back of his ankle, Duh!



So go for the Achilles?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> But everything at the same speed and power seems quite protracted, surely that kick would be the end game. Sorry, don't understand non variable pace?


Or he easily puts at least three point of contact on your kick and violently pushes you off, if you are lucky.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Or he easily puts at least three point of contact on your kick and violently pushes you off, if you are lucky.



Three points of contact on the kick. If he pushes you off! Seems to me that a head but would not be defensible.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> The Kenpo answer would be to slip behind him and stomp the back of his ankle, Duh!



distracting backfist?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> distracting backfist?


A perfectly good insert when moving from the inside to the outside. If you clip them on the iliac crest, it becomes much more than a distraction.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> distracting backfist?



How would that be in play if you have shaped for the ankle? Back fist would likely be countered by the opponent dropping. Maybe forearm smash. That is of course you could use the back fist at speed.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> How would that be in play if you have shaped for the ankle? Back fist would likely be countered by the opponent dropping. Maybe forearm smash. That is of course you could use the back fist at speed.


Right cross, return to opposite shoulder, drop the back knuckle low, just before you counter grab at the shoulder, with you opposite hand. Like in Lone Kimono.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 18, 2015)

Jab works too, but Drop Bear may be referring to the Benny the Jet foot work stuff I was telling him about before. Check it out if you haven't already. I helped me.


----------



## Transk53 (Mar 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Right cross, return to opposite shoulder, drop the back knuckle low, just before you counter grab at the shoulder, with you opposite hand. Like in Lone Kimono.


 
I'll check that out. Thanks


----------



## Balrog (Mar 19, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx


IMNSHO, it's kinda like college.  One martial art should be your "major", and you spend the majority of your time training in it.  However, some cross-training in other martial arts could be "electives" that support the major.  You're not trying to become expert in those arts, you're simply becoming a more well-rounded martial artist in your own right.


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 19, 2015)

Balrog said:


> IMNSHO, it's kinda like college.  One martial art should be your "major", and you spend the majority of your time training in it.  However, some cross-training in other martial arts could be "electives" that support the major.  You're not trying to become expert in those arts, you're simply becoming a more well-rounded martial artist in your own right.




We'd don't do the 'majoring' thing in UK education. You go to university to do a degree course so we'd be the one martial arts only ones.


----------



## toddfletcher (Mar 19, 2015)

Balrog said:


> One martial art should be your "major"


I'll second that. Not sure if anyone else is like me, but I have a passion/addiction for my core style. I teach my students that 'black belt' means 'true student'. In other words, only after years of dedication to your first art are you even capable of really understanding and learning. So I will always be open to learning from any style or artist I meet, but I will continually return to my core style for the majority of my training.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 19, 2015)

in regards to the OP I am not saying I am "A better martial artiest" but I kept my core style and practiced it no matter where I traveled. I also took the time to learn other styles/systems as I traveled around the country. Each new style I learned only added to my knowledge of the arts and helped me understand what I was doing better.  
  I added what I found useful to what I did and kept in mind what was not useful for me but might be to a student in the future. I still tell other instructors that I know and meet that I will "steal" any technique that is useful or that fills a gap in what I do.


----------



## Andrew Green (Mar 19, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I like that removal of the barriers idea that you suggest.. I wonder can well-rounded, learning as much as possible and making an art your own to be as you say "great".. can these things happen through the study of one art / style / school of thought or system exclusively do you think? Jx



For some people perhaps, but not for me and the way I approach things.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 19, 2015)

Balrog said:


> IMNSHO, it's kinda like college.  One martial art should be your "major", and you spend the majority of your time training in it.  However, some cross-training in other martial arts could be "electives" that support the major.  You're not trying to become expert in those arts, you're simply becoming a more well-rounded martial artist in your own right.


I like that analogy it is sensible thank you.  Can I ask please in what way those "electives" arts support the major art would you say? Jx


----------



## Jenna (Mar 19, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> in regards to the OP I am not saying I am "A better martial artiest" but I kept my core style and practiced it no matter where I traveled. I also took the time to learn other styles/systems as I traveled around the country. Each new style I learned only added to my knowledge of the arts and helped me understand what I was doing better.
> I added what I found useful to what I did and kept in mind what was not useful for me but might be to a student in the future. I still tell other instructors that I know and meet that I will "steal" any technique that is useful or that fills a gap in what I do.


Thank you my friend.. So your art had sections or techniques that you felt unhappy with and that it was better to utilise replacements from another art? Am I understanding this correctly? Jxx


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 19, 2015)

Yes and no.  There where things we did not completely cover ( some weapons as an example) that I wanted to learn more about. There where also arts that I wanted to learn about and when learning them I incorporated the techniques that fit my personal fighting style that I used and techniques that I felt would perhaps benefit future students of mine.
I have always been curious about what other arts where and what they thought were valuable and I have never been afraid to look at other arts not only to learn about the history but why things where done differently than I had learned. In doing this I found different techniques and ways of doing things and have passed some of these things on.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 20, 2015)

Speaking as someone who has done more than one art for many years. Yes, as long as you don't mix them. One trains and is forever trying to remove the habits of one from the other. It might work out earlier on but as one gets to higher level, say roku/nandan or menkyo level it gets harder to separate.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 20, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Yes and no.  There where things we did not completely cover ( some weapons as an example) that I wanted to learn more about. There where also arts that I wanted to learn about and when learning them I incorporated the techniques that fit my personal fighting style that I used and techniques that I felt would perhaps benefit future students of mine.
> I have always been curious about what other arts where and what they thought were valuable and I have never been afraid to look at other arts not only to learn about the history but why things where done differently than I had learned. In doing this I found different techniques and ways of doing things and have passed some of these things on.


This makes lot of sense thank you.. What was it that stopped you being able to completely cover weapons?  Was your art at the time empty hand?  and if so why would that art not be enough in the form it was?  Jxx


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 20, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



I would say start with one and that will be your primary style. After you become experienced with that you can explore other arts and see how they work for you. Or, you can start by exploring different arts as a beginner and pick one that works best for you and then focus exclusively in that art and then when you become good at it try different arts, but to always have a primary art, or to start out with one. Later on you might try different styles or even switch styles entirely but its good to start with one style that you put most of your focus in.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would say start with one and that will be your primary style. After you become experienced with that you can explore other arts and see how they work for you. Or, you can start by exploring different arts as a beginner and pick one that works best for you and then focus exclusively in that art and then when you become good at it try different arts, but to always have a primary art, or to start out with one. Later on you might try different styles or even switch styles entirely but its good to start with one style that you put most of your focus in.


Plus, good luck making rank, doing things that aren't in the curriculum.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 21, 2015)

Exactly how long and how hard do posters think it takes to become "proficient" in one art alone? For example Shodan in Japan is a ranked beginner. Anyone thinking a foreign rank is anywhere near as good as a Japanese one is dreaming. My students did around six/seven years for shodan.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 21, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Exactly how long and how hard do posters think it takes to become "proficient" in one art alone? For example Shodan in Japan is a ranked beginner. Anyone thinking a foreign rank is anywhere near as good as a Japanese one is dreaming. My students did around six/seven years for shodan.


.. so is it you are saying that this precludes the idea of doing more than one art? Thank you Jx


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 21, 2015)

Hyoho said:


> Exactly how long and how hard do posters think it takes to become "proficient" in one art alone? For example Shodan in Japan is a ranked beginner. Anyone thinking a foreign rank is anywhere near as good as a Japanese one is dreaming. My students did around six/seven years for shodan.


I forgot it was the best country and all. I think the Okinawan guys would have a few words to say about that, if not some Bruce Lee wanna be, in the good old USA, with too much time on his hands. It happens.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 21, 2015)

Jenna said:


> .. so is it you are saying that this precludes the idea of doing more than one art? Thank you Jx


No of course not. Martial  Arts is a lifetimes work/study. Plenty of time to research!


----------



## Instructor (Mar 21, 2015)

I would say train in one art long enough that your teacher encourages you to teach others.  That is not a rank necessarily but it could be.  If your teacher says you can now teach others then you are probably well grounded in that system.  Don't leave it behind when you learn other systems either but keep working and advancing in your core art in addition to trying new things.


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 21, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx


 
*In my experience you cannot 'perfect' an art , being as perfection is something usually subjective rather than objective. All you can do is become better at the techniques, your application of them, and transmittance to others through teaching or fighting.*

There are a number of styles in Tae Kwon Do, one can begin with one and after receiving say their second Dan or have ten years experience I see nothing wrong in moving on to another style of Tae Kwon Do. This applies to any art. Given you can practice both without confusing the techniques (say one style crosses their arms differently than the other, or one kicks more traditionally korean and the other more like shotokan) and can recognize which technique from which system you are doing, I see nothing wrong; its when you begin to mix and match you begin to sacrifice the integrity of a martial system you practice.

*I agree with Bruce Lee's quote, one who has practiced 10,000 kicks once is not as formiddable as one who has done one kick 10,000 times, but that is incomparable to one who has done 1,000 kicks 10,000 times each.*

As it is written in the book of five rings;
"_In strategy you must know the Ways of other schools, so I have written about various other traditions of strategies in this the Wind Book._ " -Book of Wind 1st Paragraph

"_To attain the Way of strategy as a warrior you must study fully other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the Way of the warrior. With your spirit settled on your duty, you must practice day by day, and hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit of Shin [heart] and I [will], and sharpen the twofold gaze of ken [perception] and kan [intuition]. When your spirit is not in the least confused, when the clouds of bewilderment are cleared away, there is the true void. _" -Book of Void 4th paragraph.

It seems concurrent to the parabolic view that martial arts as a whole are kind of like a sphere- and each point on that sphere is a different style of the arts. There is no one style superior to others, merely practitioners who may superior to others. It is kind of like how you can get a hundred people together, train them all in the same style for the same amount of time and degree of skill, and in some way they each will express that art differently, as the arts are a means for us to express ourselves.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 21, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I would say train in one art long enough that your teacher encourages you to teach others.  That is not a rank necessarily but it could be.  If your teacher says you can now teach others then you are probably well grounded in that system.  Don't leave it behind when you learn other systems either but keep working and advancing in your core art in addition to trying new things.



Sadly nowadays we have to delegate responsibility to some that are not ready but in general what you say works.

Ah perfection! Its some thing we all strive for in a lifetimes study but will never reach.

 It also depends on what you practice. My grandaughter was up to a junior black belt within a few years in Tae Kwon Do. On the other hand I spent 7 years on one waza in HNIR before being allowed to move on. Some ryu will have you sweeping up and making tea for two years. Study other schools is tantamount. Mixing them? Any idiot can do that and usually give it a new name and become 'Kaiso' (first Sohke).


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 21, 2015)

Sadly many people today studying multiple arts for a very short period of time then move to a different art without learning what the first is really about. 
There are many reasons for someone starting a new art but that should be a different discussion/thread but it should never be done because someone has studied a month of this two months of that and a few other things for a short period of time and then wants to make themselves look good by becoming an instant head of some made up system.
Those that study many years and learn from other arts as they go are opening there eyes and mind to different possibilities and expanding their knowledge. Those that dedicate themselves  to a lifetime of training acknowledge that there is always more to learn


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 21, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Plus, good luck making rank, doing things that aren't in the curriculum.



Doing things that aren't in the curriculum? What do you mean by that?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Doing things that aren't in the curriculum? What do you mean by that?


If you were in a TKD class and you solve problems with Kenpo, you are doing things outside the curriculum.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you were in a TKD class and you solve problems with Kenpo, you are doing things outside the curriculum.



Well, if you're doing forms, then there is a prescribed, specific way to do particular movements. But you're not 'solving problems' while doing forms. Frankly, that sounds like the sort of thing you do in sparring or self defense practice. In which case, there's nothing "outside the curriculum". There may be a sparring rule (i.e. no low kicks) but low kicks are certainly a part of the curriculum. 
Maybe you can be more specific about exactly what you mean.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, if you're doing forms, then there is a prescribed, specific way to do particular movements. But you're not 'solving problems' while doing forms. Frankly, that sounds like the sort of thing you do in sparring or self defense practice. In which case, there's nothing "outside the curriculum". There may be a sparring rule (i.e. no low kicks) but low kicks are certainly a part of the curriculum.
> Maybe you can be more specific about exactly what you mean.


I do Kenpo; so, I will put it in that court. When I do a move my teacher did not teach me, or do it a move he did teach me in a different style, that is fine, but I must be able to do the stuff the way he says, and I must show him I can use kenpo, and only kenpo to get through any exercise, and that includes sparring. I don't make rank unless I can do that.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

There is a flow to it, or, a logic you buy into...or not.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

If I am using different ideas than prescribed, it simply means I don't understand the material well enough.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I do Kenpo; so, I will put it in that court. When I do a move my teacher did not teach me, or do it a move he did teach me in a different style, that is fine, but I must be able to do the stuff the way he says, and I must show him I can use kenpo, and only kenpo to get through any exercise, and that includes sparring. I don't make rank unless I can do that.



Frankly, that still makes no sense to me. 
If we're sparring, and I throw a ridge hand, are you honestly going to claim you can tell if I learned it in Kenpo or TKD or some other art?
Or are you talking about pre-arranged sparring, which are intended to drill specific combos?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Frankly, that still makes no sense to me.
> If we're sparring, and I throw a ridge hand, are you honestly going to claim you can tell if I learned it in Kenpo or TKD or some other art?
> Or are you talking about pre-arranged sparring, which are intended to drill specific combos?


I can tell if you are doing it kenpo-ish, yes.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Frankly, that still makes no sense to me.
> If we're sparring, and I throw a ridge hand, are you honestly going to claim you can tell if I learned it in Kenpo or TKD or some other art?
> Or are you talking about pre-arranged sparring, which are intended to drill specific combos?


You either did, or did not follow the rules. LOL


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I can tell if you are doing it kenpo-ish, yes.


OK... so watch the video here and tell me which techniques I learned in what system.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> OK... so watch the video here and tell me which techniques I learned in what system.


One of those takedowns could just as well have been Kenpo, but I can't name your other systems of motion.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> One of those takedowns could just as well have been Kenpo, but I can't name your other systems of motion.



That's kind of my point... in a moving (as opposed to static situation like pre-arranged sparring) you're not really likely to be able to tell if a technique is Kenpo, TKD, Aikijujutsu or any other unarmed system. There's way too much overlap of techniques, and stylistic differences are limited or non-existent under anything other than a forms-type situation.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's kind of my point... in a moving (as opposed to static situation like pre-arranged sparring) you're not really likely to be able to tell if a technique is Kenpo, TKD, Aikijujutsu or any other unarmed system. There's way too much overlap of techniques, and stylistic differences are limited or non-existent under anything other than a forms-type situation.


I'm talking about the way you move, the path you choose, where you return, was it counter-balanced or not, foot positions, depth of stance, etc.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

The ridge hands, that everybody likes, violate at least two Kenpo principles; so, you may see a groin shot, or one hugging center line up to the throat, but the big horizontal thing is a no no.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> The ridge hands, that everybody likes, violate at least two Kenpo principles; so, you may see a groin shot, or one hugging center line up to the throat, but the big horizontal thing is a no no.



I think big horizontal "haymaker" style strikes, regardless of if they're with the fist or ridgehand, violate the principals of most (if not all) martial arts. 

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use one, if the opportunity presented itself and that seemed to be the highest percentage move at that particular point in time...


----------



## seasoned (Mar 22, 2015)

From a purist viewpoint and a traditionalist at heart I started one art and have held fast to it for many years. What I have found over the years, provided that your chosen art is of a vintage from times pasted, will contain all elements of a combative nature along with it's special uniqueness provided by the creator, to fit  all elements of movement. At first glance this art will possess a limited repertoire of techniques that are quite functional in and of themselves. But, just below the surface, hiding in plain sight, is a complete art saved for those that search. 
The words "complete art" are exactly what the modern practitioners are seeking when they, in their quest, look to put together a "complete art" by cross training. 
Creators of old were very much ahead of the curve in the respect to a complete combat system to handle any and all situations. Why all the secrecy you may ask, because these systems were born out of times where secrecy meant your continued existence.
Now a days we live in a very fast pace world where we need to recognize fruits of our labor immediately and there is nothing wrong with this type of thinking. I and others have chosen a different path of which ends up in the very same place at the other end. 
The arts are there to enjoy for everyone, and contain something for everyone. The important thing to always remember is,  love what you do and strive to improve yourself daily and the rewards will be enormous for those that commit.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> One of those takedowns could just as well have been Kenpo, but I can't name your other systems of motion.


They are human motions. And these motions are used within many systems; Because we are all human. The presentations within form and drills are specific but within fighting, real unscripted fighting, it will often be difficult if not impossibe to define motions to a particular system.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Danny T said:


> They are human motions. And these motions are used within many systems; Because we are all human. The presentations within form and drills are specific but within fighting, real unscripted fighting, it will often be difficult if not impossibe to define motions to a particular system.


That isn't true. If one system has you moving one way, and another system has you moving another way. I can tell the difference. LOL


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think big horizontal "haymaker" style strikes, regardless of if they're with the fist or ridgehand, violate the principals of most (if not all) martial arts.
> 
> But that doesn't mean I wouldn't use one, if the opportunity presented itself and that seemed to be the highest percentage move at that particular point in time...


Call us violent and mean, but the culture of our school is to show students why unsafe behavior is unsafe.


----------



## Jenna (Mar 22, 2015)

seasoned said:


> Now a days we live in a very fast pace world where we need to recognize fruits of our labor immediately and there is nothing wrong with this type of thinking. I and others have chosen a different path of which ends up in the very same place at the other end.


Love this thoughtful response! I wonder can I ask do you imagine that this need we have to see the fruits of our labour immediately does this mean people now have less perseverance and are less persistent with their first or main art?  Might this be why people move on or try to find MA pastures greener do you think?  Jxxx


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 22, 2015)

Life is very fast past today and patients has taken a major hit.... that is my opinion as to what that means.

Once had a discussion with a Taiji/Xingyi sifu who was a student of Wang Peishang. We were discussion Santi Shi. He said his teacher stood in Santi for hours a day and he had to stand for hours as well. He also agreed BP Chan that 20 minutes per side was a good start. But he added "who has time today to stand in Santi for hours" life is to fast paced today. He would like his students to stand at least 20 minutes per side per day but he understood that it was not always easy to take 40 minutes out of a day and just stand. So he felt 20 was better than 15, 15 was better than 10 10 was better than 5 and 5 was better than nothing.

So if you know combine arts, Aikido in and of itself takes years to understand and people simply do not have the patients or the time (sometimes that belief comes from lack of patients) to dedicate to it. So they combine arts to get where they feel they need to go faster. But then there are also cases of very talented people who want to train multiple arts just because they enjoy them, they are taking the time and they are able to keep the basic concepts separate within themselves.


----------



## Hyoho (Mar 22, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Life is very fast past today and patients has taken a major hit.... that is my opinion as to what that means.
> 
> So if you know combine arts, Aikido in and of itself takes years to understand and people simply do not have the patients or the time (sometimes that belief comes from lack of patients) to dedicate to it. So they combine arts to get where they feel they need to go faster. But then there are also cases of very talented people who want to train multiple arts just because they enjoy them, they are taking the time and they are able to keep the basic concepts separate within themselves.



Over the years I have made lots of patients. I have been a patient myself through overtraining and injuries.

But seriously, if you dont know something well you fill in the gaps with something you learned from another art. The point is do you want to learn "a particular art" or just mess it up? Its hard enough as it is trying to hand something down that has been taught for generations.


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 22, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Those that study many years and learn from other arts as they go are opening there eyes and mind to different possibilities and expanding their knowledge. Those that dedicate themselves  to a lifetime of training acknowledge that there is always more to learn


 
I could not agree more. One must explore their potential, but there is a right way to do so in exploring the arts, and a wrong way.

"I do Kenpo; so, I will put it in that court. When I do a move my teacher did not teach me, or do it a move he did teach me in a different style, that is fine, but I must be able to do the stuff the way he says, and I must show him I can use kenpo, and only kenpo to get through any exercise, and that includes sparring. I don't make rank unless I can do that. "

Tried to quote you Touch Of Death, but I'm not sure it worked. What you are saying is also true. When practicing an art, even two different styles of the same art, such as say IKCF Kempo and Japanese, you should be able to adequately distinguish between what style of the technique you are doing. I believe in exploring different arts, but I also believe in doing an art with its purity and integrity intact. I.E. if I am doing Moo Duk Kwan TKD and in a MDK style form introduce ITF style movements, I have sacrificed the purity of the MDK form I am doing. I believe having a broader repertoire is never a bad thing, but if going to do so one must distinguish between which art they are doing, and be deliberate when they amalgamate them together. This can be difficult to do sometimes.


----------



## Danny T (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That isn't true. If one system has you moving one way, and another system has you moving another way. I can tell the difference. LOL


Give an example please.



Touch Of Death said:


> One of those takedowns could just as well have been Kenpo,...


Could just as well have been but was it?



Touch Of Death said:


> ... but I can't name your other systems of motion.


Did you not post this about a video from DD where you were unable to define the motion to a particular system?


----------



## Jenna (Mar 22, 2015)

[QUOTE="Xue Sheng, post: 1695390, member: 7937"So they combine arts to get where they feel they need to go faster. But then there are also cases of very talented people who want to train multiple arts just because they enjoy them, they are taking the time and they are able to keep the basic concepts separate within themselves.[/QUOTE]
Agree completely with your thoughts XS.. wonder (and have a concern) how easy it is in reality to do as you say and keep concepts (particularly ones that might overlap in outcome) separate?  What do you think? Jx


----------



## geezer (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That isn't true. If one system has you moving one way, and another system has you moving another way. I can tell the difference. LOL



OK, I'm gonna break with the majority opinion and a_gree_ with you. Maybe your problem was using Kenpo as an example, since it is a very broad and eclectic system. However, many arts are narrower in their focus and do not overlap so much. Archery and wrestling for example. I'm sure I could tell them apart even in totally unstructured application. LOL

Now a _little _more seriously, If you were to compare Wing Chun, TKD, and BJJ,  most people could differentiate them even in a free sparring session. There is not that much overlap between their methods and objectives. For example I remember a post in which a BJJ practitioner on this forum commented on a video showing a WC guy sparring a karateka. He ridiculed them both for their inept groundwork. He noted that the WC guy passed up numerous opportunities to get the mount and submission. The _fact that neither art has the objective of getting a submission _was apparently lost on him. Might as well criticize the archer for crappy takedowns, or the wrestler for poor marksmanship!

Now of course if you are training for a common objective, there will be more overlap. For example, if you want to spar with MMA rules in a cage, and you want to be successful, you will apply what you need to, and the lines will be more blurred. Alan Orr's WC trained MMA fighters are an example:


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 22, 2015)

at one time you could almost tell which art a person studied by watching them do a form or get into a stance for fighting and some by the way they walked.  Most certainly you  could tell by what techniques they used or did not use when fighting. Today there has been so much cross training and incorporation of techniques that work  that most systems look alike on the competition floor.  
Now when off the competition floor  and inside the school things might be different.  Many competitors found that  they needed to use the techniques of others to raise there game.

As I said before people that study a lifetime studied others to learn more not just for competition but for knowledge


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 22, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> at one time you could almost tell which art a person studied by watching them do a form or get into a stance for fighting and some by the way they walked.  Most certainly you  could tell by what techniques they used or did not use when fighting. Today there has been so much cross training and incorporation of techniques that work  that most systems look alike on the competition floor.
> Now when off the competition floor  and inside the school things might be different.  Many competitors found that  they needed to use the techniques of others to raise there game.
> 
> As I said before people that study a lifetime studied others to learn more not just for competition but for knowledge


 
That is a good point. I used to feel the same way, but there are some general commonalities generally in a system. For example I can almost always tell when someone is doing WTF TKD based just off the position of their hands when they spar. Likewise Shotokan is pretty easy to distinguish. That being said, I have difficulty telling if someone is doing kickboxing of American Muai Thai. But that may just be a personal observational failure of mine, lol.

The problem I take issue with is when people open a school and say they are teaching Tang Soo Do and honestly its some kind amalgamation of Jeet Kune Do and Kempo, for example. That is at least one nice thing about the WTF TKD federation and the IKCF- it creates a standard so its easier to see what exactly someone within TKD is doing or in American Kempo, but that is limited in its own right. I started with MDK WTF TKD, and moved to ITF style over time. When I went to teach at a school in the area I just moved to, I found out none of my rankings in the ITF style were recognized by the WTF style school. Which honestly kind of sucked, because that sort of standardization such as the IKCF, WTF and Kendo federation have creates a kind of odd elitism.

That I take issue with- turning someone away without even looking at what they can actually do because they haven't registered within a certain classification system, which basically comes down to money, which I loathe being a part of Martial Arts.

If I had my way, it'd be taught for free. Which is why I am seeking employ at the kids kicking cancer foundation; it's non-profit, and teaches terminally ill cancer patients who are children TKD for no cost.


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 22, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, if you're doing forms, then there is a prescribed, specific way to do particular movements. But you're not 'solving problems' while doing forms. Frankly, that sounds like the sort of thing you do in sparring or self defense practice. In which case, there's nothing "outside the curriculum". There may be a sparring rule (i.e. no low kicks) but low kicks are certainly a part of the curriculum.
> Maybe you can be more specific about exactly what you mean.





Touch Of Death said:


> I do Kenpo; so, I will put it in that court. When I do a move my teacher did not teach me, or do it a move he did teach me in a different style, that is fine, but I must be able to do the stuff the way he says, and I must show him I can use kenpo, and only kenpo to get through any exercise, and that includes sparring. I don't make rank unless I can do that.



Maybe the point he was trying to make is that, if you do something outside of what your instructor has taught and outside the system, even if your "successful" with it, the instructor is very limited in what he can do to help you make it better.  And, you're probably not finding the lesson you're intended to in the class, either.  Extreme example -- if I'm teaching you an unarmed self defense technique and you draw a gun or break out a radio and call in a tactical air strike...  You've missed the point of the lesson just a little, huh?


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 22, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you were in a TKD class and you solve problems with Kenpo, you are doing things outside the curriculum.



There are some dojos that teach multiple styles, each with their own ranking system, and there are students who sometimes train in those multiple styles simultaneously. On the average, they don't take any longer or have any harder time advancing in rank as students who are only doing one of the styles.


----------



## geezer (Mar 22, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There are some dojos that teach multiple styles, each with their own ranking system, and there are students who sometimes train in those multiple styles simultaneously. On the average, they don't take any longer or have any harder time advancing in rank as students who are only doing one of the styles.



That would really depend on the student --his ability, how hard he trains, and so on, _and _on the school. Not all schools have the same criteria for advancing. In fact they vary dramatically.

BTW, what experience or data to you base your statement on? My experience teaching a traditional Chinese art is that studying multiple styles at the same time can be very confusing for some students, especially at the beginning. Ultimately however, I feel that cross training is usually beneficial for reasons I have stated before.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Mar 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> That would really depend on the student --his ability, how hard he trains, and so on, _and _on the school. Not all schools have the same criteria for advancing. In fact they vary dramatically.
> 
> BTW, what experience or data to you base your statement on? My experience teaching a traditional Chinese art is that studying multiple styles at the same time can be very confusing for some students, especially at the beginning. Ultimately however, I feel that cross training is usually beneficial for reasons I have stated before.



The primary school I train in teaches both Judo and Karate. It is not uncommon for students who are taking classes there to do both and although I am not doing so now, I have taken both at the same time in the past. Since Judo and Karate are so different, students don't have a problem confusing the two styles, at least not to my knowledge. Advancement in Karate is done through taking and passing tests which they schedule every three to four months. Advancement in Judo is done through attending and competing in tournaments and depending on what belt you're working on, it would depend on how many matches you have to win and what the ranks of your opponents have to be for you to advance.


----------



## seasoned (Mar 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Love this thoughtful response! I wonder can I ask do you imagine that this need we have to see the fruits of our labour immediately does this mean people now have less perseverance and are less persistent with their first or main art?  Might this be why people move on or try to find MA pastures greener do you think?  Jxxx


As I relate to your question I can only point back to an earlier time as I came up though the ranks. It was never about looking for that next technique but taking the ones you were given and training them into and past boredom.   Not realizing it at the time, the patience we learned was one of the greatest assets. Something else that was taught through discipline was respect. Once respect for dojo, Sensei and others was realized, could you begin to respect yourself, which instilled confidence (not arrogance). 
Martial arts is a character builder, as one of the last gifts open to the ones that persevered. Then and only then could you teach and pass on your art for generations to come.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> There is a flow to it, or, a logic you buy into...or not.



How do you become unpredictable?


----------



## Buka (Mar 23, 2015)

Sometimes the study of different styles isn't by choice. Dojos, at least here in the U.S, close down almost as frequently as restaurants. If somebody studies a Martial Art for years and loves it - and their dojo shuts down, they might continue to train in whatever is available to them.

When you train the Arts for many years you make some interesting friends. A lot of times those friends have different Martial backgrounds. Friends share a lot of things.

If you compete more than a few times you're bound to become kind of friendly to other competitors. And you'll probably hear this conversation, "Dude, show me how you did that." - which sometimes leads to "Why don't you drop by our club (or my house or my buddy's basement) meet the guys and we'll go over it."

If you're a cop you'll meet other cops who train, have trained or want to train. You might not spend years training in another guy's system, but if he can control a violent, wild man better than you....

Sometimes you'll just see something that you KNOW suits you. Kind of hard not to go explore that something.

Personally, I didn't have the luxury of training in a complete Martial Art. So I went a looking. 
Best thing I ever did.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Mar 23, 2015)

Buka said:


> Sometimes the study of different styles isn't by choice. Dojos, at least here in the U.S, close down almost as frequently as restaurants. If somebody studies a Martial Art for years and loves it - and their dojo shuts down, they might continue to train in whatever is available to them.
> 
> When you train the Arts for many years you make some interesting friends. A lot of times those friends have different Martial backgrounds. Friends share a lot of things.
> 
> ...


You sought the instruction of Master Ken?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> How do you become unpredictable?


The short answer is to use obscure zones, so they can't see it coming. However, your questions seems to imply the being unprincipled is somehow the same thing as being unpredictable. It is not.


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 23, 2015)

Buka said:


> Personally, I didn't have the luxury of training in a complete Martial Art. So I went a looking.
> Best thing I ever did.


 
I was unfortunate to experience the retirement of a teacher five years into training, and the death of another after a few years. Likewise this sent me looking and exploring, and it was one of the best things I have ever done for my life.

I have friends who do silat, kyokushin, muai thai, and so on, and we definately do share. In fact, the insight from one silat practioner radically increased the power in my kicking ability. Without him I would have missed something very important.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Xue Sheng said:
> 
> 
> > So they combine arts to get where they feel they need to go faster. But then there are also cases of very talented people who want to train multiple arts just because they enjoy them, they are taking the time and they are able to keep the basic concepts separate within themselves.
> ...



IMO it is not at all easy, but there are a few talented people that can do it. However there are few yet who can do it under pressure. Like I said somewhere on MT, all of my attacks are Xingyiquan and all of my defense is taijiquan. It comes down to what comes naturally for the individual.

I am currently working to change my attack defense proclivities, but it is not easy


----------



## Jenna (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> How do you become unpredictable?


I would take your question out of the context of your reply and simply say.. wow this is an awesome question in its own right.. should have its own thread! I think unpredictability is key to being a BETTER martial artist of any ilk.. I say if you know HOW to make your self unpredictable as a fighter within your style you win far more than lose  Jxx


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 23, 2015)

Xingyi is fantastic with offense. Am I misunderstanding its principle or are its attackst stop the opponent from attacking? Please correct me if wrong, as an internal art I know it is complicated.

To Jenna- yes I think that should be its own thread. Mushin is pretty important to learning how to utilize that, a kind of ingrained through training reflex how to appropriately respond to whatever is thrown at you. It's very difficult to reach.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 23, 2015)

Shajikfer said:


> Xingyi is fantastic with offense. Am I misunderstanding its principle or are its attackst stop the opponent from attacking? Please correct me if wrong, as an internal art I know it is complicated.



Xingyiquan basic; Attack is attack and defense is attack. Xingyiquan always attacks, even when it is backing up.


----------



## donald1 (Mar 23, 2015)

I wouldn't say many but at least more than one however all same instructor. Main style goju karate and kobudo (weapons) and some training in xingyiquan


----------



## Jenna (Mar 23, 2015)

seasoned said:


> As I relate to your question I can only point back to an earlier time as I came up though the ranks. It was never about looking for that next technique but taking the ones you were given and training them into and past boredom.   Not realizing it at the time, the patience we learned was one of the greatest assets. Something else that was taught through discipline was respect. Once respect for dojo, Sensei and others was realized, could you begin to respect yourself, which instilled confidence (not arrogance).
> Martial arts is a character builder, as one of the last gifts open to the ones that persevered. Then and only then could you teach and pass on your art for generations to come.


Absolutely agree with you! Am I just getting too old or what ever happened to character building through perseverance with some thing difficult (still achievable though)?? What happened to -as an old sparring partner used to refer to it - JUICING the technique until every possible way it could be utilised was exhausted.. I miss that in what I have seen in some of the pop-up dojos about lately 

Man I hate sounding old haha!  Still.. happy to be old if it means I can also be oldschool!!  Jxxxx


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 23, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Xingyiquan basic; Attack is attack and defense is attack. Xingyiquan always attacks, even when it is backing up.


 
I thought so. I emphasize that every block should be an attack. I see nothing wrong with backing up- it can be a devious trap for your opponent strategically.


Pssssht Jenna, I can't wait to get old. I'm 5'4 so by the time I'm in my 50s and 70s I'll be a little old man that all the youngins will surely think is a push-over, then I'll show them whippersnappers a thing or two XD.

Edit: _made a typo. What I get for not re-reading and posting. Too much coffee._


----------



## Jenna (Mar 23, 2015)

Shajikfer said:


> I thought so. I emphasize that every block should be an attack. I see nothing wrong with backing up- it can be a devious trap for your opponent strategically.
> 
> 
> Pssssht Jenna, I can't wait to get old. I'm 5'4 so by the time I'm in my 50s and 70s I'll be a little old man that all the youngins will surely think is a push-over, then I'll show them whippersnappers a thing or two XD.
> ...


Ah I am sure you do not worry over your height.. it is only disadvantageous if you believe it so! Your art is a good art then it will easily adapt to you.. not so good arts require you to change for them!  Jxx


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 23, 2015)

Shajikfer said:


> I thought so. I emphasize that every block should be an attack. I see nothing wrong with backing up- it can be a devious trap for your opponent strategically._._



There is a saying in Xingyiquan "Xingyiquan never backs up" but many take that to literally. It does back up, but it always attacks.... I like it



Shajikfer said:


> Pssssht Jenna, *I can't wait to get old*. I'm 5'4 so by the time I'm in my *50s *and 70s I'll be a little old man that all the youngins will surely think is a push-over, then I'll show them whippersnappers a thing or two XD.



I think you just called me old


----------



## Shajikfer (Mar 23, 2015)

Eh age is relative. Grams is 91 and just lost her second tooth, so even when im 70 id still be young in her book relatively.

And yes Jenna, you're right. If anything I consider my height the perfect one for martial arts. Though if I could have longer arms that would be kinda nice I admit... I'd take that even if it made me look a bit like a monkey.

And I mean Xue, I hope you've never had MY experience; was in a kids department folding clothes at a seasonal job when this kid came up to me flabbergasted, absolutely in shock. He asked me if I was a really large kid, or a man-kid. In that order haha.


----------



## Buka (Mar 23, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> You sought the instruction of Master Ken?



I would love to work out with, have dinner with or generally get to know Master Ken.
What a great sense of humor that man has. It's not just the cool idea he came up with, I don't think a lot of people could pull that off - even with a Hollywood advisor. I enjoy a good chuckle from the Martial Arts world, lord knows we need some.


----------



## MJS (Mar 24, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Sadly many people today studying multiple arts for a very short period of time then move to a different art without learning what the first is really about.
> There are many reasons for someone starting a new art but that should be a different discussion/thread but it should never be done because someone has studied a month of this two months of that and a few other things for a short period of time and then wants to make themselves look good by becoming an instant head of some made up system.
> Those that study many years and learn from other arts as they go are opening there eyes and mind to different possibilities and expanding their knowledge. Those that dedicate themselves  to a lifetime of training acknowledge that there is always more to learn



LOL exactly, and we've seen those people on this very forum.  I've had people ask me how I could do Kenpo AND Modern Arnis.  Simple: I wasn't in a rush.  I wanted to learn the art, plain and simple.  Whenever the belts, came, they came.  It wasn't a priority.


----------



## RowdyAz (Jun 21, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx


It doesn't hurt to look around and see whats on offer for sure. But I find its better to be good at one thing than mediocre at alot. As with all practitioners, it's not what you are taught it's how good you are at it.


----------



## Shai Hulud (Jun 21, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> It doesn't hurt to look around and see whats on offer for sure. But I find its better to be good at one thing than mediocre at alot. As with all practitioners, it's not what you are taught it's how good you are at it.


I wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## toddfletcher (Jun 22, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> As with all practitioners, it's not what you are taught it's how good you are at it.



*sagenod* well said.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> It doesn't hurt to look around and see whats on offer for sure. But I find its better to be good at one thing than mediocre at alot. As with all practitioners, it's not what you are taught it's how good you are at it.


What would give you personally cause in your training to stop and think.. I must look around to see what else is on offer? Thank you, Jx


----------



## RowdyAz (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> What would give you personally cause in your training to stop and think.. I must look around to see what else is on offer? Thank you, Jx


When you don't feel like going anymore and you lose the interest that you once had.  If training becomes a chore,  more I have too than I want too.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> When you don't feel like going anymore and you lose the interest that you once had.  If training becomes a chore,  more I have too than I want too.


..otherwise you would feel sticking with one art would serve a martial artist better??  If so, why??  Or if not, why not? Jx


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2015)

Quite often though you don't have a choice about learning another art if you want to stay in martial arts. If you move around a lot ie in the military or your club closes down you don't always have the choice of staying in the same style. My instructor has a few black belts because he was in the army for over twenty years and did whatever style was available to him wherever in the world he was. I have two because my first club closed down when the local council sold the gym to a private company for flats and I couldn't travel at the time.
The moving around thing is one reason we don't ask children to change their belts to white when they join us after moving here, they are only going to be with us two to three years and some of the children have already been to a couple of different clubs, it's very discouraging to always go back to white belt every time they move, bad enough changing schools and friends. If they want to grade with us they can, they start at the beginning and earn our belts but only change when they go pass their original belt ( they do get one of our belts and a certificate though). Sounds confusing I know but service children have enough going on in their lives without any hassle from something they should enjoy doing. We have a very broad curriculum so nobody feels left out! We aim that whatever club they go to next won't be too strange, we teach the various ways you can bow, the various fighting stances, instructions in Japanese, English and Korean and anything else that's interesting. The children have a folder where they collect information, pictures etc about all the different martial arts.
One of the children, a teenage boy was close to his Shotokan brown belt so our instructor whose karate style is Shotokan taught him and graded him up, the lad joined the army, his father's regiment, and gained his black, Two years later he was killed in Afghan, he was only twenty one. ( we also lost one of our MMA students just twenty, out there) All our child students know someone who was killed or injured in Afghan, so if our style of teaching, grading and whatever upsets some because it's not 'pure', to be honest we really don't care.


----------



## RowdyAz (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> ..otherwise you would feel sticking with one art would serve a martial artist better??  If so, why??  Or if not, why not? Jx


This really is a question only Chuck Norris could answer.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Quite often though you don't have a choice about learning another art if you want to stay in martial arts. If you move around a lot ie in the military or your club closes down you don't always have the choice of staying in the same style. My instructor has a few black belts because he was in the army for over twenty years and did whatever style was available to him wherever in the world he was. I have two because my first club closed down when the local council sold the gym to a private company for flats and I couldn't travel at the time.
> The moving around thing is one reason we don't ask children to change their belts to white when they join us after moving here, they are only going to be with us two to three years and some of the children have already been to a couple of different clubs, it's very discouraging to always go back to white belt every time they move, bad enough changing schools and friends. If they want to grade with us they can, they start at the beginning and earn our belts but only change when they go pass their original belt ( they do get one of our belts and a certificate though). Sounds confusing I know but service children have enough going on in their lives without any hassle from something they should enjoy doing. We have a very broad curriculum so nobody feels left out! We aim that whatever club they go to next won't be too strange, we teach the various ways you can bow, the various fighting stances, instructions in Japanese, English and Korean and anything else that's interesting. The children have a folder where they collect information, pictures etc about all the different martial arts.
> One of the children, a teenage boy was close to his Shotokan brown belt so our instructor whose karate style is Shotokan taught him and graded him up, the lad joined the army, his father's regiment, and gained his black, Two years later he was killed in Afghan, he was only twenty one. ( we also lost one of our MMA students just twenty, out there) All our child students know someone who was killed or injured in Afghan, so if our style of teaching, grading and whatever upsets some because it's not 'pure', to be honest we really don't care.


I cannot even imagine how a family would cope after having a son killed like that.. or like any way.. My heart just automatically goes to them if they are around still..

As for pure art.. how do you mean that Tez? Are not most all art are some form of another art in some way??  Thank you Jx


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

RowdyAz said:


> This really is a question only Chuck Norris could answer.


I am not sure he is on this forum? I thought I would ask you instead


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I cannot even imagine how a family would cope after having a son killed like that.. or like any way.. My heart just automatically goes to them if they are around still..
> 
> As for pure art.. how do you mean that Tez? Are not most all art are some form of another art in some way??  Thank you Jx



By that I mean teaching just one art and nothing else.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> By that I mean teaching just one art and nothing else.


You mean like instructors who teach one art?? sorry.. I am being dumb today (haha that is not unusual!!) xx


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> You mean like instructors who teach one art?? sorry.. I am being dumb today (haha that is not unusual!!) xx




People have said before to us that we should just be teaching one art, not teaching about others as well as teaching groundwork. Most other schools and clubs are a one style place, we aren't, we are a martial arts club because that's what suits our students. There's already been comments on here about being the jack of all trades, master of none and how can you be any good if you learn/teach more than one style. If we only taught one style we would have very few students and many more would miss out on martial arts because they don't come from that one style, this way we can accommodate as many as want to do martial arts. We aren't a 'normal' club/school as you can see. It would be nice if we could just do one style, to go into huge depth and have students go from white to black but that won't happen, the most we get students for is about three years if that. We've never had anyone stay long enough to get to black belt


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> People have said before to us that we should just be teaching one art, not teaching about others as well as teaching groundwork. Most other schools and clubs are a one style place, we aren't, we are a martial arts club because that's what suits our students. There's already been comments on here about being the jack of all trades, master of none and how can you be any good if you learn/teach more than one style. If we only taught one style we would have very few students and many more would miss out on martial arts because they don't come from that one style, this way we can accommodate as many as want to do martial arts. We aren't a 'normal' club/school as you can see. It would be nice if we could just do one style, to go into huge depth and have students go from white to black but that won't happen, the most we get students for is about three years if that. We've never had anyone stay long enough to get to black belt


Thank you for explaining!  Yes! I imagine if it is to the benefit of the students then it is of not much concern about "purity".. why though do you think it would be like you say nice to do one style and go into huge depth? What is the difference? thank you Jx


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for explaining!  Yes! I imagine if it is to the benefit of the students then it is of not much concern about "purity".. why though do you think it would be like you say nice to do one style and go into huge depth? What is the difference? thank you Jx




We can only touch a small part of a style, it would be lovely to have a student in at white belt have them train up to black then carry on as an instructor. We can't teach more than a couple of katas and their Bunkai to people, nor can we teach advance techniques to students from scratch. We do get some senior students in but often from other styles, they adapt quickly but usually it's an add on for them as they usually retain their love for their original style.
On the other hand we do get a wealth of different experiences in from our students, we can all do various styles of roundhouse kicks now lol. There's always something to learn from each other.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We can only touch a small part of a style, it would be lovely to have a student in at white belt have them train up to black then carry on as an instructor. We can't teach more than a couple of katas and their Bunkai to people, nor can we teach advance techniques to students from scratch. We do get some senior students in but often from other styles, they adapt quickly but usually it's an add on for them as they usually retain their love for their original style.
> On the other hand we do get a wealth of different experiences in from our students, we can all do various styles of roundhouse kicks now lol. There's always something to learn from each other.


Sounds like you all succeed in adapting both students and instructors alike! I do very much like the idea of lots of different experiences all in the one place.. I think one aspect I do not recall reading in this thread is that there can be a certain insularity in training not just one art and but one single art in one single place with one single group of people.. On the other hand, I understand how you mean and I imagine it can be frustrating maybe? not being able to do the entire syllabus.. still, from here Tez, it sounds fun in your training hall! I would have such a time with all of those different inputs.. it would be so fun learning some thing from everybody there.. anyway yes I understand how you mean and but I know you do the best by your lot and hey thank you for reply!  wishes, Jxxx


----------



## Langenschwert (Jun 23, 2015)

Sounds like an interesting club Tez!

Our club is also diverse. What might constitute a "style" for us is somewhat nebulous. For example, when I teach HEMA, we use a variety of sources, the author of each could be said to the master of a particular "style". For example, our longsword curriculum uses Andreas Paurnfeyndt for beginners, and then moves on to the VonDanzig manuscript, and fills in some holes with Joachim Meyer's book and the "Dobringer" manuscriupt. Our half-swording comes from Gladiatoria (MS KK5013). Is that one style or five? They're all "German Longsword", but spread out over more than 100 years. Likewise our messer is based on three manuscripts, all German. Our medieval grappling is only one though. That's as close to "pure" as our club's HEMA gets. As long as our guys can fight well and use what they've been taught, I'm happy.


----------



## donald1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> There is a saying in Xingyiquan "Xingyiquan never backs up" but many take that to literally. It does back up, but it always attacks.... I like it
> 
> 
> 
> I think you just called me old


I never heard that saying what do you mean by it "xingyiquan never back up"

Personally id never say old, unless im talking about expired food or stuff like that. When talking about people i prefer terms like wise, mature, or sophisticated... less likley to cause  anger or get myself in trouble


----------



## geezer (Jun 26, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I never heard that saying what do you mean by it "xingyiquan never back up"



I can't comment on Xing yi, but we have  similar mottos in the branch of Wing Chun I practice.  Basically, once you engage, you maintain continuous forward intent. You try to make your whole body (limbs, trunk, stance and steps) exert forward pressure, something like a spring. This pressure can be light or heavy, but it is relentless. You never pull back or retreat of your own accord. But you_ can_ yield or move back, as long as you maintain forward energy ...just as a spring can be compressed backwards even as it constantly presses forward. So if an opponent crashes into you, you _can_ let his force press you back or aside. _You just don't pull back on your own._

In Wing Chun this is expressed in the famous _kuen kuit _or fighting verse: _Loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung_ -- _Stay with what comes, follow the retreat and thust forward when the way is free.
_
Interestingly, the DTE Eskrima I train also preaches constant forward pressure, although in practice, a good deal of evasion is also employed, especially at longer ranges. However, once engaged at _the corto _range_,_ we maintain a similar forward pressure.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 26, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I never heard that saying what do you mean by it "xingyiquan never back up"



It is generally interpreted incorrectly as xingyiquan always goes forward. In reality it does back up, but it always attacks even when backing up and that is what it really means is xingyiquan always attacks.... xingyiquan never backs up



donald1 said:


> Personally id never say old, unless im talking about expired food or stuff like that. When talking about people i prefer terms like wise, mature, or sophisticated... less likley to cause  anger or get myself in trouble



Code words for old...HEY!!! are you calling me old again????


----------



## donald1 (Jun 26, 2015)

Me??? No never...


----------



## crazydiamond (Jun 27, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



My martial art is a mixed martial art - so I am training in several arts simultaneously. While this is what I wanted as I believe its "better" for me to train this way - it is also at times confusing to me as a newer martial arts student. I often have to ask the instructor - "wait what is this?" (silat, Kali, Jun Fan, Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Shoot, BJJ, or what?).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 27, 2015)

Jenna said:


> do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously ...


You should use one art as the major art to build up your foundation. You then train your minor arts afterward, not simultanously but one after another. For example, you may spend 6 years in your major art A, after 6 years, you may spend 3 years in your minor art B, another 3 years in your minor art C, and ...

The draw back of this approach is you will never be "pure" in your minor arts training. All your minor arts will have your major art "flavor" no matter you like it or not.


----------



## marques (Jun 27, 2015)

My advice is to master ONE discipline, before jump to the next one if you want (simultaneously or not).
If you don't master your mother tongue... how will you understand the second language? I know people with extensive experience and no strong points!! Maybe because they jumped too much. And / or never found a good instructor...
I also understand people that chose (and change) the discipline according to the age (or body capacity) and objectives at the moment.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You should use one art as the major art to build up your foundation. You then train your minor arts afterward, not simultanously but one after another. For example, you may spend 6 years in your major art A, after 6 years, you may spend 3 years in your minor art B, another 3 years in your minor art C, and ...
> 
> The draw back of this approach is you will never be "pure" in your minor arts training. All your minor arts will have your major art "flavor" no matter you like it or not.


You suggest majoring in and minoring in.. can you say why that approach would be better than either of these two alternatives:
1. 'majoring' in one art exclusively 
2. 'minoring' in several arts simultaneously with no particular major? 
thank you


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The draw back of this approach is you will never be "pure" in your minor arts training



You see, this is what I mean, people saying your art isn't 'pure' 



marques said:


> My advice is to master ONE discipline, before jump to the next one if you want (simultaneously or not).
> If you don't master your mother tongue... how will you understand the second language? I know people with extensive experience and no strong points!! Maybe because they jumped too much. And / or never found a good instructor...
> I also understand people that chose (and change) the discipline according to the age (or body capacity) and objectives at the moment.



You have to understand too that not everyone actually gets the chance to just do one discipline as I said, *we don't all get to choose.*


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2015)

Jenna said:


> You suggest majoring in and minoring in.. can you say why that approach would be better than either of these two alternatives:
> 1. 'majoring' in one art exclusively
> 2. 'minoring' in several arts simultaneously with no particular major?
> thank you


The problem of "major in one art exclusively" is your vision may be too narrow. You may not look at one thing from "different angles". Also you may have too much "style boundary" attitude such as "my style doesn't do this".

For example, if you train BJJ only, you may not spend enough time in your "mobility" training.

If you try to "minor in several arts simultaneously with no particular major", you will never have a strong foundation to build your skills on. Some styles have contradicted principles. If you train both at the same time, it will confuse you big time.

For example, when you throw a punch, long fist require your arm and chest to be in a straight line (for maximum reach and maximum power) while WC require your arm and chest to be in an 90 degree angle (for fast punches combo).


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you try to "minor in several arts simultaneously with no particular major", you will never have a strong foundation to build your skills on. Some styles have contradicted principles. If you train both at the same time, it will confuse you big time.
> 
> For example, when you throw a punch, long fist require your arm and chest to be in a straight line (for maximum reach and maximum power) while WC require your arm and chest to be in an 90 degree angle (for fast punches combo).



You can't actually say that for certain, a lot of people can master several things that seem counter intuitive, you shouldn't be sure so that because you can't do something other's can't.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> You can't actually say that for certain, a lot of people can master several things that seem counter intuitive, you shouldn't be sure so that because you can't do something other's can't.


When you ask me ,

- "Do you like method A, or method B?" and I said, "I like both."
- "What MA style should I train?" and I said, "All MA are good."
- ...

I may not offend anybody during online discussion, but I'll dishonest to myself. I can only say what I believe and understand. I don't expect others to agree with me.

IMO, online discussion is to "express yourself" and not to "change other's mind". If you strongly believe in something, just say it.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2015)

marques said:


> My advice is to master ONE discipline, before jump to the next one if you want (simultaneously or not).
> If you don't master your mother tongue... how will you understand the second language? I know people with extensive experience and no strong points!! Maybe because they jumped too much. And / or never found a good instructor...
> I also understand people that chose (and change) the discipline according to the age (or body capacity) and objectives at the moment.



Kids grow up speaking 8 languages. There are a few who only learn one. Mostly us English speakers.

No it will be a lot harder learning two.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> You can't actually say that for certain, a lot of people can master several things that seem counter intuitive, you shouldn't be sure so that because you can't do something other's can't.



Dance is generally the example I give here. As different disciplines are subtly different and something you have to get right.

Yet a dancer is generally expected to perform multi styles to be viable as a dancer.

Martial arts is not any more complicated.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2015)

Looking at just ballroom dancing 
Just Dance Ballroom Dance Styles

Yet we cant do karate and judo together?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> You see, this is what I mean, people saying your art isn't 'pure'





drop bear said:


> Kids grow up speaking 8 languages. There are a few who only learn one. Mostly us English speakers.
> 
> No it will be a lot harder learning two.


I have been in US for 45 years. When I speak English, I still have a little bit of Chinese accent. I don't believe I will ever be able to get rid of my Chinese accent completely no matter how hard that I may try.

My English will never be "pure". But my American wife likes my Chinglish. She said it's cute.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have been in US for 45 years. When I speak English, I still have a little bit of Chinese accent. I don't believe I will ever be able to get rid of my Chinese accent completely no matter how hard that I may try.
> 
> My English will never be "pure". But my American wife likes my Chinglish. She said it's cute.



It is funny. I have found people who grow up learning English learn it in the accent they are taught it.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 28, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have been in US for 45 years. When I speak English, I still have a little bit of Chinese accent. I don't believe I will ever be able to get rid of my Chinese accent completely no matter how hard that I may try.
> 
> My English will never be "pure". But my American wife likes my Chinglish. She said it's cute.


My mother was Cajun. French was her first language, began learning English in the 1st grade, also studied and spoke Parisian French. Spoke all with differing accents. 
Have a part time student who is fluent in 5 different languages. Said he learned them while living in Europe from the age of 7-14. Worked for the military as a interpreter because his accents were correct for the languages.
I have taught multiple martial arts to hundreds of people over the years and they are excellent martial artists. The human being is capable of learning vast amounts of material when the information is presented properly.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Kids grow up speaking 8 languages. There are a few who only learn one. Mostly us English speakers.
> 
> No it will be a lot harder learning two.




My shift partner spoke several languages as most of the Gurkhas do, they start with the native dialect, then Gurkali, then Hindi and English. Over the years he's picked up Cantonese from being posted to Hong Kong and a  couple of other languages including Fijian 'pidgin'. He chats to one of the Sikh soldiers who speaks Hindi, we have a lot of bilingual people here, not all immigrants we have plenty of Welsh, Gaelic and Cornish speakers too.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 29, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Looking at just ballroom dancing
> Just Dance Ballroom Dance Styles
> 
> Yet we cant do karate and judo together?


Interesting analogy.. perhaps ballroom dancing is a certain style though.. like would those ballroom dancers also do street dance and hop hop dancing or ballet?  certain styles have interchangeable aspects.. some others do not maybe


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Interesting analogy.. perhaps ballroom dancing is a certain style though.. like would those ballroom dancers also do street dance and hop hop dancing or ballet?  certain styles have interchangeable aspects.. some others do not maybe[/QUOTE
> 
> Certainly ballet dancers can turn their hands (feet?) to any style, ballet, folk and tap is usually taught together anyway. I've watched a dance competition on television where the competitors from different aspects had to do different styles and most managed perfectly well, ballroom dancers included. The ones who didn't manage other styles were the self taught street dancers most often and the 'body poppers' who found what we usually accept as dance almost impossible.


----------



## Jenna (Jun 29, 2015)

@Tez3 yeah I think his dancing analogy works pretty well then right?? though I have been in some Aiki clubs that were not so far from ballet their selves lols


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2015)

If ballet dancers also did martial arts we'd be in trouble lol, their fitness, flexibility and strength is amazingly good.


----------



## Zero (Jun 30, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This question immediately reminds me of Leslie Fish's thoughts on the matter:
> 
> Chorus:
> Better than who? (better than who)
> ...



Thanks Tony, I have only just read over this Thread and seen your post. Had never heard of her or this whole "filk" thing before now but now getting into it. Thanks.


----------



## Zero (Jun 30, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If ballet dancers also did martial arts we'd be in trouble lol, their fitness, flexibility and strength is amazingly good.


I'd feel so vulnerable fighting in those tights!  : )


----------



## Danny T (Jun 30, 2015)

Zero said:


> I'd feel so vulnerable fighting in those tights!  : )


What!! You don't train in Spandex??


----------



## Zero (Jun 30, 2015)

Danny T said:


> What!! You don't train in Spandex??


ha!  Only with the lights out!!

It's the one and only reason I gave up savate my man!!


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 30, 2015)

Zero said:


> ha!  Only with the lights out!!
> 
> It's the one and only reason I gave up savate my man!!


I thought the spandex for Savate was quite flattering. It was the constantly getting my butt kicked by Captain America that got me to quit.


----------



## Cirdan (Jul 1, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I thought the spandex for Savate was quite flattering. It was the constantly getting my butt kicked by Captain America that got me to quit.



Uh oh gave away your secret identy there Tony.


----------



## Limasogobudo (Jul 20, 2015)

I will admit I went thru some of the first page of this, I did not read what everyone put. But here is my thought on it. When the question is asked we have to look at what the martial arts mean. Martial arts the goal is not just physical technique it is the way of bettering ones self. I think that it does not take one or many arts. In reality it just takes the person and their mind to be the drive to perfect their way of life not just a technique. So in my opinion If their heart is open and their mind is ready they will always be a good martial artist.


----------



## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> To become a better martial artist do you train SEVERAL arts simultaneously (or change arts over the course of your MA lifespan) or do you train ONE art to the exclusion of all others? Thank you. Jx



To be honest, it depends! What is a good martial artist to you ? Someone who is very good at for example Karate,Taekwondo, or someone who is a good fighter in general ? Like knows what to do in every situation ?

Well, if you mean what I think you mean, I would say it is better to train ONE not more than TWO martial arts. If you can pick, pick a system which trains you several parts at the time, like Krav-Maga, Jiu-Jitsu or Gjogsul. 

I personally stick with ONE, simply because my opinion is, why would I need to learn several martial arts ? One should be enough to cover all fields,striking,kicking,some angles and grips for self-defense. If you need more than one martial art to become a good martial artist, you should have a look for an other school.

I learn Taekwondo but did many other martial arts before, and I say there is no need for an extra martial art.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm old school on this one.  Train and understand your martial art fighting style first before you go and train another fighting style.  A martial artist should train and understand his or her style of martial arts, but study the movement of other martial artist for the purpose being more effective in fighting against those styles.  You should only train in another style after you understand your own. 

What you'll find in real life is that many traditional martial artists fail against MMA fighters because they fail to understand their style of martial arts as it refers to fighting an MMA fighter.  Most martial artist understand martial arts from the perspective of fighting against someone who knows the same style or someone who doesn't know how to fight.  You'll also discover that the better you understand your style of martial arts the more adaptive it becomes.  An extra martial art at that point would just be another tool in the tool box that's there if you need it, but not necessary the tool you use the most.


----------

