# The Straight Bladed Ninja Sword is awesome...



## Cryozombie (Jun 9, 2006)

Now that I got your attention, I have a sword question.  

At a recent seminar Luke Molitor showed us some sword techniques from Togakure-ryu, along with a "specialty" sword used by the ryu with a normal sized tsuka, and saya, but a shorter blade.

Does anyone have the specs on the typical length of the blade/tsuka in relationship to a standard katana?

Thanks...


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## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2006)

Define "standard katana."

Do you want me to get out my Togakure ryu sword and try to measure the blade?

And you should be aware that the guy that Hatsumi got to make the blade actually came out with two different sized tsuka. The first one seems to be more correct according to a Japanese shihan I trust on the matter. With it you can do _kage no itto_ quite easily. The second time around, he had just done the Kukishin sword the year before with its longer tsuka. The sword that came out that year (which I have) has the same tsuka as the Kukishin sword and it makes _kage no itto_ rather difficult.


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## Tengu6 (Jun 10, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Define "standard katana."
> 
> Do you want me to get out my Togakure ryu sword and try to measure the blade?
> 
> And you should be aware that the guy that Hatsumi got to make the blade actually came out with two different sized tsuka. The first one seems to be more correct according to a Japanese shihan I trust on the matter. With it you can do _kage no itto_ quite easily. The second time around, he had just done the Kukishin sword the year before with its longer tsuka. The sword that came out that year (which I have) has the same tsuka as the Kukishin sword and it makes _kage no itto_ rather difficult.


 
Luke told us that there were no "set specs" for the Ninja-to. It was a very personalized weapon, but in general it had a 12-14" Tsuka, 21-23" blade, very long Sageo and a saya that would give the appearance of a 29" blade.

Don, if you have the info, I would love to have specs for the Shinden Fudo Ryu katana.

Markk Bush


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## Don Roley (Jun 10, 2006)

Tengu6 said:
			
		

> Don, if you have the info, I would love to have specs for the Shinden Fudo Ryu katana.



About 80 centimeters for the blade, 30 or so for the tsuka. Very rough measurements by me.


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## Deaf (Jun 21, 2006)

hmmm... I thought it was said that the togakure ryu sword really didn't exist however was actually a broken sword picked up whereever and whenever it could for quick escape.  

Being deaf has it's disadvantages so I could be totally wrong on this.  But I do remember Luke mentioning that the togakure ryu sword was smaller due to a lot of the techniques being more of a "slash and run" type deal.  At least that was what I "think" I read his lips say! 

~Deaf~


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## HenryGuyton (Sep 21, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Now that I got your attention, I have a sword question.
> 
> At a recent seminar Luke Molitor showed us some sword techniques from Togakure-ryu, along with a "specialty" sword used by the ryu with a normal sized tsuka, and saya, but a shorter blade.
> 
> ...



Several factors must be taken into consideration when discussing historically "common" or "typical" _tsuka_ lengths of Nihon-to worn/carried by old samurai.  They include 1) average physical size of adult male in Japan in the old days, 2) use of Nihon-to in military applications and bureaucratic rituals during specific eras, 3) national weapons laws issued by the ruling Shogunate, 4) political atmosphere of the specific eras, and 5) regional sub-cultures of daimyo's ruling territories (i.e, _han_).


sword of Snake Eyes


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## newtothe dark (Sep 22, 2010)

Not an expert or anything just saw this and was wondering is this the style you are talking about? http://www.chenessinc.com/9260oniyuri.htm


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## ElfTengu (Sep 22, 2010)

newtothe dark said:


> Not an expert or anything just saw this and was wondering is this the style you are talking about? http://www.chenessinc.com/9260oniyuri.htm


 
I have one of these, and yes some techniques and draws are difficult if held with the right hand up by the tsuka, but is much faster to draw than standard swords, and the longer handled version allows you to change your grip so that you have the same weapon length as an opponent armed with a more commonly dimensioned sword.

Personally though, I always find it difficult to imagine that hundreds or thousands of warriors from a particular ninja clan or ryuha would make themselves so easy to identify by carrying uniform weaponry. They might as well wear mons and carry nobori!

"Sir, we have an intruder with a sword of xxx-shaku and 9 hira shuriken in his jacket, 9 bo shuriken up his sleeves, and wearing shuko, .......etc"


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## Tanaka (Sep 22, 2010)

Well they probably weren't always on intelligence missions. Ninja were also warriors.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 23, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Well they probably weren't always on intelligence missions. Ninja were also warriors.



According to which sources? Because most of the info I got seems to indicate that any fighting skills where more geared towards survival and escape, instead of _'ride into battle for death and glory' _kind of fighting. 

I also read a quote by Hatsumi sensei, saying that if a ninja had to fight, he had already screwed up, and that fighting was the least important skill of the ninja. Another saying (which comes from Gikan ryu iirc) is 'Ni sente nashi', meaning something like 'from this side will the first attack not come'.

So defining them as warrior seems inaccurate because attacking and charging into battle seems not to have been their mo.


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## Tanaka (Sep 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> According to which sources? Because most of the info I got seems to indicate that any fighting skills where more geared towards survival and escape, instead of _'ride into battle for death and glory' _kind of fighting.
> 
> I also read a quote by Hatsumi sensei, saying that if a ninja had to fight, he had already screwed up, and that fighting was the least important skill of the ninja. Another saying (which comes from Gikan ryu iirc) is 'Ni sente nashi', meaning something like 'from this side will the first attack not come'.
> 
> So defining them as warrior seems inaccurate because attacking and charging into battle seems not to have been their mo.


As I understand Samurai of Koka have been in battle. Same with Iga. It's just that those Samurai also had special skills of "Ninjutsu" that they could lend in service. This is what evolved the "Ninja" concept.


"Ni sente nashi"   < this doesn't make sense to me.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 23, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> As I understand Samurai of Koka have been in battle. Same with Iga. It's just that those Samurai also had special skills of "Ninjutsu" that they could lend in service. This is what evolved the "Ninja" concept.



Well, yes, but to call them warriors would be a stretch, as that word has some very specific meanings which did not typically apply to ninja.



Tanaka said:


> "Ni sente nashi"   < this doesn't make sense to me.



See here for more info. Point 6.
If I understood it correctly, it refers to the idea that you don't strike or attack first. You wait for the other person to do that and respond. This is why our curriculum is built around the idea of 'evade / block / strike back' and 'escape'. This can also be seen in the kamae like ichimonji which are defensive and not offensive.


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## Tanaka (Sep 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Well, yes, but to call them warriors would be a stretch, as that word has some very specific meanings which did not typically apply to ninja.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When being employed as Ninja; I would agree.

Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.
But I agree that your system represents what you said.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 23, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.
> But I agree that your system represents what you said.



Ah ok. I am still learning Japanese and I can't translate that sentence anyway. I just read that that was the translation. It is probably something that needs a surrounding / original context to make sense.


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## ElfTengu (Sep 24, 2010)

"OMG my ninja skills are needed urgently but I'm wearing my samurai outfit on and my samurai sword, what on earth am I to do?"

:jaw-dropping:


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## Cryozombie (Sep 25, 2010)

newtothe dark said:


> Not an expert or anything just saw this and was wondering is this the style you are talking about? http://www.chenessinc.com/9260oniyuri.htm




Kinda.  I have one of those, and I have one with a similar blade but a shorter Tsuka made by Oni Forge, and was just trying to figure out what was more accurate.  I actually got my answer way back in '06, but this thread was necro'ed


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## Tanaka (Sep 25, 2010)

ElfTengu said:


> "OMG my ninja skills are needed urgently but I'm wearing my samurai outfit on and my samurai sword, what on earth am I to do?"
> 
> :jaw-dropping:


Find a telephone booth.


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## ElfTengu (Sep 28, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Find a telephone booth.


 
But it's 1549! :O


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 3, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Also the sentence "ni sente nashi" doesn't make grammatical sense to me.


 
&#12395;&#20808;&#25163;&#12394;&#12375;

&#20808;&#25163; means "first move", "initiative" or "first strike/attack" 
it is true one would expect a subject before the particle &#12395;, but i'm afraid classical Japanese is even more reluctant to use a subject than modern Japanese, and that's saying something. 

&#12394;&#12375; is just a classical form meaning as much as "without" or &#12394;&#12356;. , although it is not always written in kanji nowadays.

Oh and as for origins, i know for a fact that "karate ni sente nashi" was the credo of Funakoshi sensei, that would be shotokan karate. That's not to say it couldn't have been used by other ryuha prior to that, but i'm not at all sure about it being gikan ryu. Than again, I don't know much about gikan ryu as it is, so me not knowing it isn't really proving or disproving much of anything.

oh, and the Straight Bladed Ninja Sword is awesome...


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## Chris Parker (Nov 3, 2010)

The phrase (alternately worded "Bufu ni sente nashi") is attributed to Uryu Gikanbo, the first "official" Soke of Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu in 1558 (it was actually said to be founded by his teacher, Akimoto Kanai Moriyoshi, who was one of three important students of the 12th Soke of Gyokko Ryu, Sogyokkan Ritsushi). Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (the "Bo" was most likely a post-humous addition, a Buddhist tradition), also known as Uryujo, was famous for a number of things, including leaping skills (Hichojutsu), Senban Nage, and his very powerful punch, with which he was said to have once broken a sword in half.

Some confusion comes about with the 10th Soke also being known as Uryu Gikan, so the phrase could come from him as well. Gikan wa involved in the Battle of Tenchi Gumi, being wounded by a musket shot. He managed to get away from the battle, and was tended to by Ishitani Sensei, already Soke of Kukishinden Ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and when recovered, taught Ishitani the Gikan Ryu, with Ishitani becoming the next Soke of Gikan Ryu as well. He then taught Takamatsu, and then things get confusing....

Oh, and on topic of "Straight swords", Steve Hayes has put a blog about this very subject online at the moment: http://www.skhquest.com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/

Of course, that could just start things off again.......


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 4, 2010)

still...i it feels more like an improvised sword with construction and metalworking finesse closer to those of agricultural tools than to those of a sword. No doubt it existed left and right, making a crude straight sword is a lot easier and requires alot less skill than making a proper daito. Guess that too plays here... in the old days good swords were even more precious than now. Those that couldn't afford it were probably left with scraps, like remade broken swords or crudely forged ones. 

I mean, the large battle axe is also a classical weapon of Japan. That doesn't mean it was common or standard in any way. The same probably goes for the straightbladed "ninja" sword.

On top of that, the oldest swords in Japan were not "daito" but "tsurugi" (ok, same kanji as "ken"), those were actually straight swords, but looked more like the taichiswords than the SBNS under discussion here. The straight sword kusanagi (&#33609;&#34201;&#21133 is actually one of the three sacred treasures of Japan, together with the Mirror and the Jewel. So, sure, straight blades in Japan aren't that odd, conceptually. But it's not the same, and the single edge straight ninjato, if it ever existed as a distinct model,  was probably more of an improvised cheaper and more available version of a proper sword. Look at it like this: most ninja lived in agricultural communities. The smith had experience with tools in excess to making swords (a very distinct trade). It wasn't an option to order a nice daito on the internet back than, so what was left was what was available locally. 

Just an exercise historic deductive logic. Mostly speculation. Might get the topic going though


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## Muawijhe (Nov 4, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and on topic of "Straight swords", Steve Hayes has put a blog about this very subject online at the moment: http://www.skhquest.com/2010/10/31/ninja-sword-non-controversy/
> 
> Of course, that could just start things off again.......


 
I read that the other day and was going to post something about it, then figured that it offered nothing really to be discussed in a historical, logical, or constructive manner. Merely the opinions of a man who is unwilling to let go of grudges/ghosts.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 4, 2010)

Now, just to make things interesting....

The idea of straight bladed swords being "inferior" in manufacture is sort of crucial to the idea of them being "ninja" swords (poor, downtrodden farmers etc). However, I have yet to see an example of this type of sword that isn't relatively modern. On the other hand, someone on another forum linked this site today (http://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop/shop.php), which shows a straight bladed, single edged Chokuto apparently dated to the before the 12th Century. It has been shortened at some point, and my initial thought was just that the curve was situated down near the tsuba (Koshi Sori), but I'm not so sure. Most likely it was a form of Kazari Tachi, a formal Court sword with a straight blade mounted as a Tachi.

In the end, I'm not convinced that "straight = cheap", really. During Japan's history, there have been plenty of cheap curved swords put out in mass production during times of turbulent warfare. So it continues....


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## Muawijhe (Nov 4, 2010)

Excuse my ignorance, but is the SBNS a Hayesism (based on his jumping to conclusions, bad translations, and what little evidence he has found), or does the debate pre-date him and go further back?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 4, 2010)

It seems to be mainly from Hayes. He has reportedly admitted to not being taught much sword when in Japan to begin with, and from reports from my Instructor, in most classes most people only had a training knife and a hanbo, and would use the hanbo to double as a sword... which would be shorter... and straight.... hmm.

If he was then told that the reason was that there wasn't enough significant difference, he could have jumped to the conclusion then (conjecture on my part there). Suffice to say I've never come across any accounts of older documents that support it, the closest is the Togakure Ryu blade, which is shorter, yes, but still curved. And from what I can tell, that was only one form of sword they were said to use.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 4, 2010)

I can't believe that I haven't posted in this thread yet!


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## cdunn (Nov 4, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> In the end, I'm not convinced that "straight = cheap", really. During Japan's history, there have been plenty of cheap curved swords put out in mass production during times of turbulent warfare. So it continues....


 
I don't have any dogs in this, but, I would like to note that the curvature of the majority of nihonto, while controllable, is a direct consequence of the methods of manufacture. 

It has to be understood that the native iron sands in Japan are very, very poor sources of iron ore, and the tamagahane blast furnace process results in a very uneven, possibly very high carbon steel that is full of a variety of impurities. This material can be fed into pre-1000 AD smithing techniques, which can easily result in a straight blade - indeed, the straight blade is easier to make. 

However, because of this, the steel-folding process was invented and the differential hardening process began to spread through Japan. The folding functions to, after a fashion, homogenize the steel and reduce many of the oxide impurities that remain in the tamagahane. Once the steel is brought in rangs of a good sword, a straight or gently curved blade can be produced.

Once the blade is produced, it needs to be hardened and tempered. The high carbon blades and rapid hardening of the Japanese smiths will, without alteration, result in an extremely hard, extremely brittle blade - the two properties are almost invariably inversely related. Therefore, the back end of the blade is wrapped in clay during the hardening, to slow the quench, resulting in a softer steel in the back, which can absorb the impact of a blow. However, this same process means that the back of the blade and the edge have different compositional arrangements, and the back will shrink relative to the edge, creating the curve of the blade from a straight sword. 

A straight blade, then, tells you that it has either not been differentially hardened, or that the curve of the blade has been removed in some fashion after the curvature, such as breakage and regrinding. Running my straightedge up to my screen, that chokuto you linked appears to have a very gentle curve, likely introduced by the differential hardening process on a straight blade, before the technology became much more aggressive and the large, deliberate curve was introduced.


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## Chris Parker (Nov 4, 2010)

cdunn said:


> I don't have any dogs in this, but, I would like to note that the curvature of the majority of nihonto, while controllable, is a direct consequence of the methods of manufacture.
> 
> It has to be understood that the native iron sands in Japan are very, very poor sources of iron ore, and the tamagahane blast furnace process results in a very uneven, possibly very high carbon steel that is full of a variety of impurities. This material can be fed into pre-1000 AD smithing techniques, which can easily result in a straight blade - indeed, the straight blade is easier to make.
> 
> ...


 
Yep, agreed. Nearly.



cdunn said:


> Therefore, the *back end of the blade is wrapped in clay* during the hardening, to slow the quench, resulting in a softer steel in the back, which can absorb the impact of a blow. However, this same process means that the back of the blade and the edge have different compositional arrangements, and the back will shrink relative to the edge, creating the curve of the blade from a straight sword.


 
It's the edge that has the clay applied to it, if the back of the blade cooled slower, it would contract slower, which would give an "inverse" curve. But that's really only half the story. The blade itself is made of a couple of different carbon steels, with the back of the blade being a lower carbon metal, and the front (edge) being the higher carbon. That's where you get the "soft" and "hard" steel variants.

That said, with a very shallow curve to the Chokuto I'd still think that this was a Koshi Sori Tachi that has been cut down, above the sori itself, making it virtually "straight". The other possibility I have thought of is that it was potentially a votive offering at a shrine, as many "unusual" weapons were created for those reasons, such as extra long spear-tips and so on. But again, this is conjecture without seeing the blade itself.


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## cdunn (Nov 4, 2010)

Bleh, my first reference was backwards. Yes, there are also many different lamination techniques that enhance the process. 

Anyway, the point was: 'straight' simply means that the process of differential hardening has not been applied. A high quality, through hardened blade is still possible, and it is relatively possible to bang, or even harden, a curve into a cheap blade.


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## Kajowaraku (Nov 4, 2010)

my point was mostly that if straigh single edged swords existed they would have been rather marginal phenomena as swords, and probably the result of quick improvisation rather than proper swordsmithing. Personally I feel the weapon cannot really have been a 'ninjasword' because of a few simple reasons:
 A: it's inferiour to curved swords in hardness and cutting power
 B: it really marks you as a ninjer.
 C: the historic straight blades were double edged, which would make some sense, singled edged makes far less sense.

The only exception could be hidden weapons. A sword hidden in the walking cane of a priest would have to be either very short or reasonably straight, but what are we talking about than? not ninjato at any rate, and another rather rare and uncommen exotic weapon.

I think we can safely assume it never really was common practice for ninja to carry straightblades. Some would have survived to date, as chris stated clearly.

But they are awesome. 

They make for great discussions


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 4, 2010)

Sorry Chris, but I have to correct you on this. Ah... I am savouring this moment (it doesn't happen often that I can correct you ) but I am confident that I can out-trivia you in the topic of metallurgy and blades. The mune (spine / back side of the blade) has the clay coating applied to it. There is also clay near the edge, but the thick layer is on the mune. Here is a link with some additional info. The smith Mike Blue is a friend of mine. http://www.dfoggknives.com/workshop.htm

The edge cools rapidly and is 'frozen'. The mune cools slowly and therefore contracts again, leading to the curved design.
I've seen this happen on camera on a national geographic documentary, and it was really neat to actually see the blade bend backwards slowly.

But you can't know everything of course 
Now excuse me while I bask in the glory of this moment.

EDIT: quote from 'The art of Japanese sword polishing', page 16.
_A complex but thin layer of clay is used to coat the edge. of the sword, and a thick uniform layer  is used to cover the body of the blade. The blade is then heated to a high temperature and cooled rapidly by plunging it into a tank of water. The edge cools rapidly, the steel taking on the hard form of martensite. The body of the blade with its thicker coating, cools more slowly and the steel remains in the ferrite and pearlite forms._


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## Chifuka-ryu (Dec 27, 2010)

The people who say that the ninja did not use straight blades are wrong.
*



			<H2 class=title>"Ninja Sword" Non-Controversy</H2>My friend Scott W. found a 20-year old issue of a ninja magazine with a quote from Masaaki Hatsumi that supports what I have said about ninja swords for decades. I do not own a copy of the magazine, and I had long ago forgotten about the article.
A few silly people envious of the attention my work has gotten over the past 30 years have tried to use a debate over ninja swords to discredit my authority. If you cant beat him, at least cheat him, might be their battle cry.
One of the reputation-killer arguments put out by those critics has been an attack on my reference to choku-to straight-blade shinobi-gatana ninja swords as part of the stereotypical ninja image. No such thing existed, some like to insist in dismissal of me.
Do I believe that all ninja of feudal Japan carried straight-blade short swords as some sort of badge of official ninja-ness? No, of course not, and I never said anything like that.
Many ninja may not have even thought of themselves as ninja. They called themselves Iga no Mono men of Iga and rappa grass-roots and the like. Many or most carried standard curved-edge swords of the times.
Nonetheless, in Iga Castle and Odawara Castle and even the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art, you can see straight-blade Japanese swords on display.
My teacher used to do public demonstrations with such straight-blade swords back in the 1970s and early 1980s (before my most severe critics were even around to see such things).
My first books in the early 1980s were an introduction to the ninja tradition of Japan. I chose not to conflict with stereotype at that stage. Later, once the practice was established, I mentioned on page 22 of my 1988 book Ninja Vol 5; Lore of the Shinobi Warrior that the straight sword was a stereotype, and that indeed many ninja did not carry such a weapon.
My original ninjutsu teacher Masaaki Hatsumi had this to say on the subject:
The shinobi-gatana was little more than a straight slab of heavy steel with a single ground edge; the tsuba was a hammered thick steel square barren of ornamentation, but it could also be used as a prying device or by leaning the sword against a wall or tree as a booster step for climbing; the saya was usually longer than the short blade.
by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi
Ninja Magazine  Winter 1987
Translated by Masaru Hirai
Thats what Scott found, and heres a comment of his own:
I thought this was interesting. I know some people try to say that because Mr. Hayes was a ghost writer translator on the book Ninja History and Tradition by Mr. Hatsumi, that some of the stuff about swords in the book is not correct. But this article was not translated by Mr. and Mrs. Hayes. I wonder what reason Mr. Hayes critics would come up with to explain away this one.
A friend asked me why this was important enough to put on my web site. He was concerned that it made me look defensive arguing back against my inferiors. Why would a master need to justify what he teaches?
I post it because the no straight blade ninja sword argument makes me look wrong. If you just follow the foolishness on those critical internet sites, you could assume that others who know more than I do proved me wrong. And if I were wrong, I would expect my best students to be alarmed over what else I might be teaching wrong.
This kind of educational integrity has nothing to do with loyalty. It is intelligence. If I am wrong, I expect my students to be concerned. I expect to be held accountable for the veracity of what I teach. I would certainly be the first to hold my own teacher to the same standards.
But I am not wrong, and my teacher quoted above is not wrong, and you need to be very confident in that.
You are therefore right to take strong faith in what you study in our SKH Quest Center dojos.
		
Click to expand...





*


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## Tanaka (Dec 27, 2010)

Isn't there a video on youtube of Hatsumi clearly stating that the Ninjato would of been a wakizashi length blade with a katana length handle?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 27, 2010)

The morphology of Japanese swords changed over time but the only time when non-curved blades were made was prior to the 10th century.

I recall seeing a thumbnail chronology somewhere ... hang on ...

Here we go: 

http://www.thejapanesesword.com/history.htm

As an aside, by the way, I will say again what I have said before, that the whole Ninja mythology is growing and gaining credence solely because of Hatsumi and those that choose to hang on his every word as gospel truth.  It needs to be recalled that in Japan what is 'true' is a highly malleable concept and if an 'elder' which Hatusmi has become, says something, then it becomes true even if it manifestly is unsupportable.

The Ninja-to is a prime example of this in action.  There is no such blade in historical context, other than, perhaps, in fictional literature (of which there was a little).  More importantly, there are no physical examples in material context either.

Straight swords were used in theatre as a sign that someone was a bad guy (a la two-six-guns in Westerns) but that was not because bad guys were Ninja's.  The cultural context is that China was the enemy of Japan (tho more often the *target* of invasion it has to be said ), so the natural cliche for bad guys was to use a sword design common there.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> The morphology of Japanese swords changed over time but the only time when non-curved blades were made was prior to the 10th century.
> 
> I recall seeing a thumbnail chronology somewhere ... hang on ...
> 
> ...


 
x2


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## Cryozombie (Dec 27, 2010)

Chifuka-ryu said:


> The people who say that the ninja did not use straight blades are wrong.



Ok.  I forgot, Hayes knows everything... and despite the fact he was (in his own opinion) Hatsumi's top #1 forever student he clearly doesn't seem to know that things are often shown/told to the public at large that are contradicted to the ACTUAL practitioners of the art as (or as has been explained to me) a means of knowing who is "for real" and who tried to learn from books magazines and videos. 

Nahhhhh.  That article can't be an example of that... Some anonymous dude named Scott said so!


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 28, 2010)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok.  I forgot, Hayes knows everything... and despite the fact he was (in his own opinion) Hatsumi's top #1 forever student he clearly doesn't seem to know that things are often shown/told to the public at large that are contradicted to the ACTUAL practitioners of the art as (or as has been explained to me) a means of knowing who is "for real" and who tried to learn from books magazines and videos.
> 
> Nahhhhh.  That article can't be an example of that... Some anonymous dude named Scott said so!



As a Genbukan student, I can say that a significant % of the explanation / names / pictures in rou kyu level book is just plain wrong. This is to make it unusable for people without any actual training and to make visible those who use the book to pretend they had training.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 28, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> As an aside, by the way, I will say again what I have said before, that the whole Ninja mythology is growing and gaining credence solely because of Hatsumi and those that choose to hang on his every word as gospel truth.  It needs to be recalled that in Japan what is 'true' is a highly malleable concept and if an 'elder' which Hatusmi has become, says something, then it becomes true even if it manifestly is unsupportable.



+1 and this is an interesting cultural thing. My sensei has a saying for this: sensei is always right. For example, if sensei says 'this tatami is green' then that tatami is green. No matter if it is red. You don't contradict him if he says something. The tatami exampleof course is a silly one, but you don't contradict your sensei, even if he is wrong. You just say 'hai sensei' and get on with things. And if he then says you're doing it wrong (because you are doing what he said) then you just say 'hai sensei' instead of saying 'but you told me to do this'.

In the Japanese context, this makes sense, even though in western culture you'd 'defend' your actions. So if Hatsumi sensei ever said something wrong (by accident or intentionally) then noone in the art will say he is wrong, even though they know he is / was.

Of course, there are ways for everybody to move on and pretend it was never said, or said in a different context. And everybody will know this. But don't expect anyone to use the word 'wrong'.

In a similar vein, Hatsumi sensei has never outright kicked people out or publicly said they were out. Every Japanese person knows perfectly well that an absence of public support for Hayes means he is out. Yet because of the lack of denouncement that would be expected in the west, Hayes is still claiming to be on good terms with Hatsumi because in the US, he can still sell the story that not being denounced in public must mean that he is still in good graces.



Sukerkin said:


> The Ninja-to is a prime example of this in action.  There is no such blade in historical context, other than, perhaps, in fictional literature (of which there was a little).  More importantly, there are no physical examples in material context either.
> 
> Straight swords were used in theatre as a sign that someone was a bad guy (a la two-six-guns in Westerns) but that was not because bad guys were Ninja's.  The cultural context is that China was the enemy of Japan (tho more often the *target* of invasion it has to be said ), so the natural cliche for bad guys was to use a sword design common there.



+1

And that is not to say that noone in a pinch took a straight bar of steel or farming implement and made a makeshift sword out of it. But the idea that a ninja would carry an item that would immediately identify him as such is laughable. The items they carried were supposed to be inconspicuous at a glance.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 28, 2010)

Chifuka-ryu said:


> The people who say that the ninja did not use straight blades are wrong.


 
Son, you are seriously behind the times here. I posted that blog nearly two months ago (see the previous page), on the 4th of November, and it has already been discussed. It was discussed in even more detail over on MAP, and the prevailing thought was that, aside from the rather heavy handed Hayes propaganda in the blog (talking about conspiracies against him and so forth), there was real doubt as to whether or not this was actually a quote from Hatsumi, as the wording and phrasing doesn't match his speaking style or writing style, and it is remarkably close to a very similar section in Ninjutsu: History and Traditions, which Hayes ghost wrote, rather than Hatsumi.

People such as Don Roley commented that oftentimes editors add sections to articles, and it could very easily be that the editor just added it in themselves. 

Oh, and for the record, Ninja magazine is not really regarded as a credible source.... it frequently had expert articles from such luminaries as Harunaka Hoshino, James Loriega, and so on.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 28, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and for the record, Ninja magazine is not really regarded as a credible source.... it frequently had expert articles from such luminaries as Harunaka Hoshino, James Loriega, and so on.



Off Topic but equally hilarious, I found a Poster from my high school days back in the 80s in a box of my parents stuff I was sorting, and it was a "Hidden Weapons of the Ninja" poster drawn by Loriega.  I should auction it on Ebay.  hehe


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## Muawijhe (Dec 28, 2010)

Out of curiosity, mind telling us about "Chifuka-ryu ninjitsu"? It is not a style I am familiar with...


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 28, 2010)

Muawijhe said:


> Out of curiosity, mind telling us about "Chifuka-ryu ninjitsu"? It is not a style I am familiar with...



Oh dear...
Someone get the hose. There are ninjers on the lawn.

opcorn:


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## Chifuka-ryu (Dec 28, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> In a similar vein, Hatsumi sensei has never outright kicked people out or publicly said they were out. Every Japanese person knows perfectly well that an absence of public support for Hayes means he is out. Yet because of the lack of denouncement that would be expected in the west, Hayes is still claiming to be on good terms with Hatsumi because in the US, he can still sell the story that not being denounced in public must mean that he is still in good graces.


 
Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.

Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.


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## Chifuka-ryu (Dec 28, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Son, you are seriously behind the times here. I posted that blog nearly two months ago (see the previous page), on the 4th of November, and it has already been discussed. It was discussed in even more detail over on MAP, and the prevailing thought was that, aside from the rather heavy handed Hayes propaganda in the blog (talking about conspiracies against him and so forth), there was real doubt as to whether or not this was actually a quote from Hatsumi, as the wording and phrasing doesn't match his speaking style or writing style, and it is remarkably close to a very similar section in Ninjutsu: History and Traditions, which Hayes ghost wrote, rather than Hatsumi.
> 
> People such as Don Roley commented that oftentimes editors add sections to articles, and it could very easily be that the editor just added it in themselves.
> 
> Oh, and for the record, Ninja magazine is not really regarded as a credible source.... it frequently had expert articles from such luminaries as Harunaka Hoshino, James Loriega, and so on.


 
And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.

Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 28, 2010)

I don't know what to say to that really - if it were down to things being as you say they are then you might have a point.  But it's not.  

If you won't listen to reason then it's pointless talking to you.  Enjoy your views.

"Reason" here, in the way I mean the term, is supported by actually having been a professional in the field of history (there's an M.A. after my name that says I have fooled others into thinking I know what I'm talking about in such matters).  It is not supported by wishful thinking or elaborating on fabrications and accepting that as reality.

There are enough myths and half-truths in the subject area of the sword arts as it is without importing more.


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## jks9199 (Dec 28, 2010)

I think we can all agree that Stephen Hayes is a skilled martial artist who has done an impressive job of spreading his take on the martial arts covered by the "ninjutsu" label.  He certainly did a lot to spread what I'll call credible ninjutsu in the West.  I think it's also a pretty safe bet that he did some pretty effective self-promotion, too... 

It is clear from multiple sources that Hatsumi has had Hayes's name removed from the public board in the Bujinkan hombu dojo, and has made it clear to people in Japan that Hayes is on his own path.  That may mean something as simple as Hayes stopped paying dues... or that he deviated too far from what Hatsumi wanted done.  It's a matter between them -- and only the two of them know the truth of their current relationship.

Let's not let these issues lead us into murky and unpleasant waters, OK?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 28, 2010)

I quite concurr.  To me the ins-and-outs of who said what to whom in the Ninjitsu area of martial arts is largely irrelevant.  It is not that I don't care in a negative sense but more that it has no impact on me whatsoever.

All I am addressing is the historical 'truths' as we know them at present with regard to the mythical ninja-to.  If all of us stick to that line of thinking then we should be fine :fingers crossed:.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 29, 2010)

Chifuka-ryu said:


> And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.
> 
> Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.



No you also have the word of any scholar who has ever looked into the issue.
And if you really believe that Hayes' name was taken down in public without Hatsumi sensei's explicit permission, then you are seriously misguided. NOTHING happens in a hombu dojo without permission of the headmaster.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 29, 2010)

Chifuka-ryu said:


> Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.
> 
> Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.



As I said in another post, nothing happens in the hombu dojo without the explicit consent of Hatsumi sensei. Or don't you think he would be aware of the disappearance of the name plate, and ask questions if it was done without his approval?
Yours is really tenuous reasoning there.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 29, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I quite concurr.  To me the ins-and-outs of who said what to whom in the Ninjitsu area of martial arts is largely irrelevant.  It is not that I don't care in a negative sense but more that it has no impact on me whatsoever.
> 
> All I am addressing is the historical 'truths' as we know them at present with regard to the mythical ninja-to.  If all of us stick to that line of thinking then we should be fine :fingers crossed:.



The problem is that they are intertwined to some degree, since Hayes championned the straight bladed ninja-to myth for a long time.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 29, 2010)

Chifuka-ryu said:


> Prove it. It is the same story the haters of Stephen Hayes have been using. We know of no comment by his teacher, and yet we are supposed to automatically assume this does not mean that he is unaware of the situation. We are supposed to think that he knows, but says nothing for or against.
> 
> Considering the story I have heard about people taking Stephen Hayes' name down without his teacher's consent, it seems clear that there is a very clear attempt to control what the senior teachers in Japan hear.


 
Prove it? Really? Okay....

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69747

Go to post 7, and read the screen capture. You'll see the words "Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan..."

Hatsumi ordered the name plate to be removed. Saying that he knew nothing about it shows that, frankly, you know nothing about it. Stop while you're behind, it's only going to get worse from here for you....



Chifuka-ryu said:


> And maybe it was not added in by editors. Don Roley seems to be one of the haters of Stephen Hayes who may have had a hand in taking down his name in Japan without his teacher's consent. Somewhere he has a blog attacking Sensei Hayes and saying he never learned sword in Japan. He uses the straight blade argument to try to discredit Sensei Hayes. I do not consider him a reliable source.
> 
> Stephen Hayes is an honorable man without whom we may never have heard of ninjitsu. If he knew that his teacher had not written that the swords were straight he would admit it. All we have is the word of some serious haters of Sensei Hayes.


 
Don is not a "hater", really, he just has incredibly high standards that he wants other people to live up to (for the record, he has consistently attacked my organisation as well, and my Chief Instructor, but it's just the approach he has, a verÿ "this is the way it must be" kinda thing). He is, however, an author who has experience in the publishing field in regard to magazine articles, and his word can be taken as authoritative (and for the record, it was a theory he posited based on knowing how the industry works, not a definitive claim). The person who said that Hayes didn't learn much sword in Japan was, you'll never guess this, Steve Hayes.

Not considering Don a reliable source isn't really giving your argument any weight, as you are far from credible here. After all, you haven't learnt to even spell Ninjutsu yet.

For the record, my first introduction to the art was "Ninja: the Invisible Assasins" by Andrew Adams (the same as my Chief Instructor, as it happens), followed by Hayes' books. Hell, I even had one of the straight black "ninjato bokken", I think it's still around here somewhere actually, but that doesn't change the fact that so far there are no supporting statements in Japanese, no supporting aspects of the Bujinkan arts, the only statements are a book ghost written by Hayes, other books by Hayes, and a single highly suspicious article. Hayes himself backtracked and switched from claiming it was accurate to claiming that it was part of a stereotype (again, evidence of this is difficult to come by, to say the least....), part of a myth, not something that had any basis in reality, now he has switched back to "see, told you so!", with little behind it other than trying to make himself bigger again (not something that I feel he should feel he needs to do, and frankly it just saddens me to see him do that again). He was a pioneer in this art, and remains incredibly important due to that position, however there have been a huge number of claims of his that have not stood the test of time. And his need to be seen as right really gets in the way sometimes.


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## Muawijhe (Dec 29, 2010)

Outside of political dealings, why do people want the ninja-to to be real over myth?

Must want it pretty bad, for reasons I cannot see, to overlook historical evidence and constantly resort to "he said, she said" word of mouth arguments.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 29, 2010)

An intriguing question, that one, aye :nods:.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 29, 2010)

Something else to consider: it is highly improbable that anyone would be able to forge a ninjato with a hamon like it is displayed in popular media. A hamon implies differential heat treatment with a clay coating. With something as long as a sword, this will cause the mechanical stresses that bends the sword backwards. It is not common knowledge, but a katana is perfectly straight right before heat treatment. You can actually see the sword bending backwards when it goes into the water.

The amount of 'bend' can e controlled of course.  Some swords are straighter than others. But a perfectly straight blade is not an option. And if we are going to allow for an amount of curvature, then we are back with a regular katana with (optionally) a square tsuba. But even square tsuba seem a bit unlikely in my inexperienced opinion, because the chances that it would catch clothing during the draw seems too high. Especially when drawing from a place of concealment such as inside an outer garment.


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## Tanaka (Dec 29, 2010)

Muawijhe said:


> Outside of political dealings, why do people want the ninja-to to be real over myth?
> 
> Must want it pretty bad, for reasons I cannot see, to overlook historical evidence and constantly resort to "he said, she said" word of mouth arguments.


Because it gives credibility back to wannabe Ninja. Whom have used straight ninjato and claimed it was from Ninja. For example "ChosonNinja" on youtube tries desperately to prove Ninja used straight swords. Because he made the statement "This sword was passed down to me from generation to generation"
While holding a typical marketed straight Ninjato.


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 29, 2010)

Tanaka said:


> Because it gives credibility back to wannabe Ninja. Whom have used straight ninjato and claimed it was from Ninja. For example "ChosonNinja" on youtube tries desperately to prove Ninja used straight swords. Because he made the statement "This sword was passed down to me from generation to generation"
> While holding a typical marketed straight Ninjato.



That's the thing.
Once you have committed wholly to a story, you cannot backtrack without making yourself look like a schlemiel and publicly admit you made it all up.


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## Tanaka (Dec 29, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> That's the thing.
> Once you have committed wholly to a story, you cannot backtrack without making yourself look like a schlemiel and publicly admit you made it all up.


Yep, so we will constantly have people trying to prove a "straight ninjato"
because they want those "ninja masters" to be real. 
Normally for these mundane reasons.
1)It fulfills their fantasies
2)They're apart of it.


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## ElfTengu (Dec 29, 2010)

1. Choson Ninja is meant to be a Christian and really shouldn't be lying quite so much.

2. No one 'hates' Stephen Hayes but a lot of us do not thank him for all the information his books put into our brains which has had to be removed and replaced with accurate facts.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 11, 2011)

To comment on that, as a Christian myself, Choson Ninja's theology is highly suspect as well.


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## ElfTengu (Jan 14, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> To comment on that, as a Christian myself, Choson Ninja's theology is highly suspect as well.


 
These kinds of people cannot take anything, be it a martial art, a religion, or probably a hamburger, without avoiding all the hard work of progressing through an authentic curriculum via an authentic organisation. They always have to jump straight to Grandmaster, High Priest, Ronald McDonald status without putting the graft in.

p.s. For ninjato fans, it is possible that eta-class untouchables waggled machete-like urukai-esque cleavers at one another but this doesn't make them 'swords', and the only other real possibility is that of a ninja who worked in a tuna-gutting factory by day and was a ninja by night, but I doubt if such individuals could cover the aroma of their diurnal occupation.


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