# Kenpo Knife and Club Techniques



## MJS

We had some interesting discussion going on in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614&page=1

so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the other weapon based Kenpo techniques.  In the above mentioned thread, its mentioned that the gun techs. are in need of some tweaking if they're expected to work.  So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms?  Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are?


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## Casey_Sutherland

I just learnt my first lance technique, Raining lance. So far so good. The qualities I like about the kenpo knife techniques from what I have seen are that they simply don;t just disarm the knife and then strike the opponent with simply a barrage of punches or kicks, but instead uses the assailants knife against them. Gotta love a kenpoists respect, you try to stab me, i will stab you back many times with your own knife.


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## Drifter

I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night. 

In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

MJS said:
			
		

> We had some interesting discussion going on in this thread:
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614&page=1
> 
> so I thought it would be interesting to discuss the other weapon based Kenpo techniques. In the above mentioned thread, its mentioned that the gun techs. are in need of some tweaking if they're expected to work. So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are?


Club techniques are fine.  Knife techniques are ok.  However some knife concepts need to be addressed in training such as reverse cutting and reverse grips.  These remain LARGELY unaddressed in kenpo.  American Kenpo knife techniques are designed to be used against an untrained knife fighter.  Where as the empty hand technques progressed from unskilled attackers to skilled attackers the weapon techniques stayed with dealing with unskilled attackers.  Especially with regards to a knife.


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## Casey_Sutherland

Drifter said:
			
		

> I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night.
> 
> In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.


If an assailant is tring to stab me in the head he's already gone past ruining my night. Techniques are sentances where I might simply use a few words. I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them. I agree with these techniques being tailored to be used against an uneducated knife wielding attacker. Most often if someone is attacking you with a knife and they are well trained you don't see the knife until its already too late. For a good non-kenpo view of knife fighting and just bare bones basics I enjoy http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html


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## MJS

Drifter said:
			
		

> I would say that they need modification from a legal standpoint for the reason above. The law recognizes restraint, not stabbing a disarmed attacker with their own knife because they ruined your night.
> 
> In the base 154, there are, to my knowledge, no techniques against slashing.



You bring up a good point regarding the legal standpoint.  However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive.  Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab.  Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead?  As for the knife.  Keep in mind that we're being presented with deadly force being used against us.  Breaking a limb or returning the knife as part of our defense would probably not be frowned upon.

I posted this link in another thread topic, but I think that it fits here as well:

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/whatsnew/LADDERsm.jpg


As for the various knife attacks, I've just seen defense against a thrust and overhead stab.  Slashing or any other grip appears to not have been addressed.

Mike


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## MJS

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Club techniques are fine.  Knife techniques are ok.  However some knife concepts need to be addressed in training such as reverse cutting and reverse grips.  These remain LARGELY unaddressed in kenpo.  American Kenpo knife techniques are designed to be used against an untrained knife fighter.  Where as the empty hand technques progressed from unskilled attackers to skilled attackers the weapon techniques stayed with dealing with unskilled attackers.  Especially with regards to a knife.



Good point! So, going on that, wouldn't you say that they would need to be updated to deal with the possibility of a skilled attacker?

Mike


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## Drifter

"I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them."

 That's a poor defense for what's being done. Not to mention a poor defense in the courtroom afterwards.

 "However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive. Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab. Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead?"

 Are they punching us in the face yet?

 "Keep in mind that we're being presented with deadly force being used against us. Breaking a limb or returning the knife as part of our defense would probably not be frowned upon."

 I'm thinking of 'returning' in a different light. I think that returning the knife is fine, as long as it is still in the attacker's hand (a la Raining Lance). But once you take it, then you NEED to show restraint. Both from a moral (for most of us) and legal standpoint. 

 This is based on the assumption that you CAN disarm the knife at a realistic speed, and already have. 

 Mr. MacYoung has talked about wound patterns of justifiable self defense on Kelly Worden's radio show. The jist was (if I recall correctly) if you use a knife in self defense, cutting and cutting and cutting will not get you far afterwards from a legal standpoint. Rather, one or two cuts that are capable of stopping someone will be looked upon much more kindly. And this is against an armed attacker. We're dealing with people who have been disarmed.

 I would be interested in hearing responses from some of Mr. Pick's students.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

MJS said:
			
		

> Good point! So, going on that, wouldn't you say that they would need to be updated to deal with the possibility of a skilled attacker?
> 
> Mike


Absolutely! people KEEEEEEP giving the EXCUSE!!! ::cough:: that "If it's a trained knife fighter you wouldn't see the knife anyway so it's already too late." (insert sobs here) Well if the guy knows how to use a gun you A) won't see the gun B) won't be within range to defend and C) will be shot from said range anyway so why train for that either? The knife techniques that are present are useful in showing defensive suggestions against the unskilled. I'm for developing other techniques that address the skilled knife wielder. But I'm also for Kenpo incorporating some ground work to address what happens when you do end up on the ground instead of assuming that the "skilled Kenpoist" just will never end up there. I have personally put other kenpoists with as much as 10-15 years of training on their backs and rendered them helpless, repeatedly. So at what point do they "become skilled". But I guess we could take the attitude of "well against a skilled groundfighter you can't avoid getting taken down and beaten anyway so why train it." Oh wait a minute...I forgot....eye guoges, fish hooks, hair pulling and biting fix all that. All the dirty tactics are only superior to groundfighting, they're not superior to stand up fighting though LOL LOL LOL. Anyway back to topic. Yes Mike the kenpo knife techniques could either use some revision or some new knife techniques could be devised to address the skilled knife weilder. The old adaje of if the person is skilled it's already too late needs to go. If the person is a skilled boxer I guess half of punch techniques wouldn't work either? and none of the tackle-hug techniques work on grapplers either? If there is a possibility of defending against it I say train for it. First lesson of kenpo in most manuals I've read "accept that the danger exists and decide to do something about it." All other notions get a flag on the play. What flag you ask?





This One.

P.S. Sorry for the rant Mike, just getting a bit fed up with the people who make excuses for not training the *really* hard stuff. The way is in the training and I'm for training any scenario I can think of. Someone who knows more about a knife than just cutting steak definitely ranks up there on the list of possibilities.


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## MJS

Drifter said:
			
		

> "I purly enjoy using someones weapon against them."
> 
> That's a poor defense for what's being done. Not to mention a poor defense in the courtroom afterwards.



I know this is not my quote but I'll reply anyway.  IMO, when you're faced with deadly force, if you use the attackers weapon or a weapon of your own, the fact still comes down to you being faced with a deadly situation.



> "However, if you look at the majority of Kenpo techniques, you will see some sort of poke to the eye, arm break, etc. all of which, depending on the situation at hand, could be considered excessive. Lone Kimono contains an arm break for a lapel grab. Is this necessary or could we have done a joint lock instead?"
> 
> Are they punching us in the face yet?



LK is for a left lapel grab.  My question is: If they're simply grabbing us, we should respond with force in a similar fashion.  Breaking the arm IMHO, is more force than they used against us.

 Mike


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## MJS

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Absolutely! people KEEEEEEP giving the EXCUSE!!! ::cough:: that "If it's a trained knife fighter you wouldn't see the knife anyway so it's already too late." (insert sobs here) Well if the guy knows how to use a gun you A) won't see the gun B) won't be within range to defend and C) will be shot from said range anyway so why train for that either? The knife techniques that are present are useful in showing defensive suggestions against the unskilled. I'm for developing other techniques that address the skilled knife wielder. But I'm also for Kenpo incorporating some ground work to address what happens when you do end up on the ground instead of assuming that the "skilled Kenpoist" just will never end up there. I have personally put other kenpoists with as much as 10-15 years of training on their backs and rendered them helpless, repeatedly. So at what point do they "become skilled". But I guess we could take the attitude of "well against a skilled groundfighter you can't avoid getting taken down and beaten anyway so why train it." Oh wait a minute...I forgot....eye guoges, fish hooks, hair pulling and biting fix all that. All the dirty tactics are only superior to groundfighting, they're not superior to stand up fighting though LOL LOL LOL. Anyway back to topic. Yes Mike the kenpo knife techniques could either use some revision or some new knife techniques could be devised to address the skilled knife weilder. The old adaje of if the person is skilled it's already too late needs to go. If the person is a skilled boxer I guess half of punch techniques wouldn't work either? and none of the tackle-hug techniques work on grapplers either? If there is a possibility of defending against it I say train for it. First lesson of kenpo in most manuals I've read "accept that the danger exists and decide to do something about it." All other notions get a flag on the play. What flag you ask?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This One.
> 
> P.S. Sorry for the rant Mike, just getting a bit fed up with the people who make excuses for not training the *really* hard stuff. The way is in the training and I'm for training any scenario I can think of. Someone who knows more about a knife than just cutting steak definitely ranks up there on the list of possibilities.



Its not a rant James.  You're making some very good points here, and I feel that you and I are agreeing on things more than disagreeing.  Take a look at some past posts, both here and on the KN.  What do you see?  People talking about making a change for an improvement and what is the result? People saying that there needs to be no changes.  Hmmm..go figure. :idunno:   IMHO, there is always room for improvement in one way, shape or form.  Its a fact of life that change happens, and it happens every day!  Again, I'm not saying that we need to train 20 different arts, but if we cross train, cross ref. or whatever else we want to call it, the fact remains that we're getting exposure to other things that are out there.  

Mike


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## Ceicei

I really like the club techniques.  They are among my favorites.

   Sigh...moving on to a more complex subject.

 At my studio, we do have defenses against knife slashes (and other types of knife/sword attacks). Now, I am not sure if these techs are within the "standard EPAK curriculum" as taught by other EPAK studios; I am aware my studio has a "progressive" slant to how we train. We adhere to the Kenpo principles and concepts with everything we do.

 I do know that Mr. Parker emphasized the "what-if" concept. The more advanced we become, the more we should examine techniques from a "what-if" perspective--what if the attacker holds the knife this way? What if he moves in this manner? Existing techniques are adaptable as long as we understand and analyze the possibilities. The hope is that we would reach a level of "no mind" when Kenpo becomes so ingrained with how we move.

 I do carry guns and have a limited knowledge of gun disarms as taught by my CCW instructors. I am looking forward to the time when I can learn actual Kenpo gun techniques and see whether any of them would/could fit or adapt to our current [at a loss for words here]. I'm thinking environment, but it is more than just what is around us. I will revisit this issue when I reach that point in my training.

   - Ceicei


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## Seabrook

I love the club techniques, and think they all work great. There are only 5 knife techniques and they can be made to work but aren't necessarily my first choice of defense, especially given my background in Modern Arnis. 

Of the 5 lance techniques, Entwined would be my favorite.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## kenpoworks

Ceicei said:
			
		

> ......... my studio has a "progressive" slant to how we train. We adhere to the Kenpo principles and concepts with everything we do.
> 
> - Ceicei


Well Ceicei,
This seems like a great basis for Kenpo training and one that I adhere to at my club, BTW congratulations!!
Rich


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## sandan

just a few weeks ago we were testing one of the top attorneys in our area, and for his project he addressed the legality of the self defense plea.  And what we discovered was that it really depends on the jury. The jury must decide what is considered within reason, and obviously that makes it very very vague.  As he was going through his project you start to realize just how restricted the victim/potential victim is...throw in knowledge of martial arts and it restricts you even more.  Reciprocal force hardly holds any weight it seems.  
For example someone comes at you with a knife trying to kill you, you disarm and knock out your opponent, no more threat do 
a. pummel him more while the guy is still on the ground
b. retreat
the answer is it really depends...your safest and wisest option is to retreat, but for a. you could make the case that the attacker was still flailing on the ground or grabbed you and was still seen as a possible threat to yourself and others.  maybe a route of retreat was not obvious.  It really depends.   It really sucks too, not only do you have to assess a situation but you also have to try to take into consideration long term consequences.  However, there is so much to add to this...Maybe another post

my favorite response to the ever famous question of:  Have you ever had to use your karate on anyone?
A: No one's tried to kill me yet


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## Michael Billings

Under the color of the law, there is a self-defense provision. It is however, subject to the reasonable and prudent man doctrine. Whatever force is necessary to stop the attack is "probably" an affirmative defense. Other factors are also included, such as:


  Gender difference   
  Size difference   
  Weapons (did you pick it up and use it on the attacker after he was down)   
Time of day   
Location; etc. 
 Martial Artist are held more accountable, where Overkill is literally not related to Overskill. The more skilled you are, the less likely you are to have to use deadly force. The better able you are to be able to do it, but if the attacker goes to the morgue and the doctor cannot tell which injury killed him ... because there are so many ... then you may be in trouble. (Mr. Parker had a great story about wanting to have the doctor have to catalog all the injuries and causes of death. But he also was aware of the potential legal and civil ramifications of multiple injuries).

  -Michael


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## Likaes the Bandit

Every sistem has gaps and room for improvement

Cross training is the answer for all those problems  if you want to feel more confident about knife and or clubs attacks and how to take them on a good choice is to train in Kali. I have learn a lot more and expanded my skills list when i started training in kali to complement my kenpo.  Cross training is very important to me the thing in my list is ground figthing just because you never know where you gona end or who will attack you.


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## Brian Jones

Cross training can be an answer to those issues, I don't know if I would say that it is the answer to the issues.  Very often the answers we seek are in our own system, we just haven't spent enought time exploiring what we have to offer.  There are tiems when cors training is  simply an easy way out.  
  I am not agsint cross training, I train in Modern Arnis as well.  But I began training in it becase I was interested, and saw the relationship to Kenpo, not becuase there are gaps in Kenpo.  
  I do admit that the Filipino arts do allow us to cocentrate more on weapons and therefore we becoem much more ocmfortable in dealing with them.

Brian Jones


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## Kalicombat

Likaes the Bandit said:
			
		

> Every sistem has gaps and room for improvement
> 
> Cross training is the answer for all those problems  if you want to feel more confident about knife and or clubs attacks and how to take them on a good choice is to train in Kali. I have learn a lot more and expanded my skills list when i started training in kali to complement my kenpo.  Cross training is very important to me the thing in my list is ground figthing just because you never know where you gona end or who will attack you.



Bandit, it says that you are a Kenpo Yellow belt. How can you possibly make any kind of educated assessment of the Kenpo system, and the gaps that you percieve are present, having only worked yellow belt material? The issue of cross training has been hashed, rehashed, and mixed with some kind of gravy, time and time again in regards to kenpo on this very forum and others. It is not the time or place to break out those old posts, but I must say that you have alot of material yet to learn in the American Kenpo system. Why not devote some time to learning this system correctly before you start wandering off to fill the gaps, which, in my opinion, are not there. 

If you are a yellow belt, you've been through the first 10 techniques. Congrats on accomplishing that level. However, you still have 144 base techniques, plus extensions, sets, forms, free style techniques, an entire vocabulary, a complete text on principles, concepts, stance changes, anatomical alignment, not to mention having a fundamental proficiency of the real secrets of kenpo which are the basics, and a whole lot of sweat to put up before you should be worried about what kenpo CANT handle. Yellow belt is usually obtained in three months or so, given that, it is impossible for you to point out American Kenpo's shortcomings in the combat realm. 

Gary Catherman


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## pete

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> However, you still have 144 base techniques, plus extensions, sets, forms, free style techniques, an entire vocabulary, a complete text on principles, concepts, stance changes, anatomical alignment, not to mention having a fundamental proficiency of the real secrets of kenpo which are the basics, and a whole lot of sweat to put up before you should be worried about what kenpo CANT handle.


YES!!!

unfortunately, its not just the the yellow belts, but often their instructors who place these ideas into students heads, either by omitting significant parts of the system, making ill-conceived changes to the material, or pushing another art that they teach to fill the gaps (that they created).

pete.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

pete said:
			
		

> YES!!!
> 
> unfortunately, its not just the the yellow belts, but often their instructors who place these ideas into students heads, either by omitting significant parts of the system, making ill-conceived changes to the material, or pushing another art that they teach to fill the gaps (that they created).
> 
> pete.


So are we saying that the American Kenpo System has no gaps, no areas of self defense that it doesn't cover, no areas of offense that it does not introduce?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

pete said:
			
		

> YES!!!
> 
> unfortunately, its not just the the yellow belts, but often their instructors who place these ideas into students heads, either by omitting significant parts of the system, making ill-conceived changes to the material, or pushing another art that they teach to fill the gaps (that they created).
> 
> pete.


Dude, your thoughts are becoming so clear, it's inevitable you're going to see more improvement every passing day.

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So are we saying that the American Kenpo System has no gaps, no areas of self defense that it doesn't cover, no areas of offense that it does not introduce?


 
You'd be surprised just how married Kenpo, Hapkido, Chi Na, Aikido, and JJ are, and our discoveries show where they are intertwined in the base techniques, not only in the defense, but in the nature of the attack. The only gaps are simply percieved ones by the individuals, not to those that have a better general understanding of AK. For every situation you can find a gap, I probably have an answer, available within the paradigm of AK.

DarK LorD


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## Likaes the Bandit

I know that if you practice, and practrice and then practice some more you will become a godd martial artis, that i know. every sistem works that beacuse they have been around for so long.   And I know that my expirience in Kenpo is not that much  to make a good observation in the subject at hand (at least for a few ones in this forum) but if there is no gap no need to refine what you have, could you guys tell me why are that much people looking for more, asking the questions like the one is this page?

and please dont  tell me that is because they dont want to practice  or they want to take the easy way out of a situation because is you like to take the easy way out of a situation, all you have to do is buy a gun not practice martial arts.


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## MJS

Likaes the Bandit said:
			
		

> I know that if you practice, and practrice and then practice some more you will become a godd martial artis, that i know. every sistem works that beacuse they have been around for so long.   And I know that my expirience in Kenpo is not that much  to make a good observation in the subject at hand (at least for a few ones in this forum) but if there is no gap no need to refine what you have, could you guys tell me why are that much people looking for more, asking the questions like the one is this page?



As it was already said, there are often times when material is not fully understood by ones instructor.  That being said, if the instructor does not have a good understanding of something, the student most likely will not as well.  Often it takes someone who has that understanding to be able to clear up those questions.  Those people are out there, but it may take some searching to find those people.  

As for the cross training...Yes, you'll find people who cross train because they need to fill those gaps, or because that particular art happens to interest them.  We don't always have to cross train but instead we can cross reference as DKL would say.  



> and please dont  tell me that is because they dont want to practice  or they want to take the easy way out of a situation because is you like to take the easy way out of a situation, all you have to do is buy a gun not practice martial arts.



Despite what some may think, a gun is not the answer to every SD situation.

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Likaes the Bandit said:
			
		

> I know that if you practice, and practrice and then practice some more you will become a godd martial artis, that i know. every sistem works that beacuse they have been around for so long. And I know that my expirience in Kenpo is not that much to make a good observation in the subject at hand (at least for a few ones in this forum) but if there is no gap no need to refine what you have, could you guys tell me why are that much people looking for more, asking the questions like the one is this page?
> 
> and please dont tell me that is because they dont want to practice or they want to take the easy way out of a situation because is you like to take the easy way out of a situation, all you have to do is buy a gun not practice martial arts.


I take it English is NOT your native tongue, if so, then I can tell you where to start looking, in the mirror.

DarK LorD


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## Kalicombat

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So are we saying that the American Kenpo System has no gaps, no areas of self defense that it doesn't cover, no areas of offense that it does not introduce?



This topic has been gone over and there is no decisive answer. We all have our opinions based upon our experiences. Im not discounting anyones elses experience, nor trying to inflate my own. I'm just gonna say that in my personal experience, fights resulting in both parties UFC'ing it on the ground have been non existant. The ground game is not the end all of self defense, much to the shagrin of Blackbelt Magazine, countless little start-up BJJ schools, and legions of high school wrestlers turned MMA'ers. 

As far as knife techniques, the best possible scenario is to have your Glock present, then the old adage about bringing a knife to a gun fight reigns true. The second best scenario is blade -vs-blade; dont leave home without it. If you find yourself against a blade, and the only weapon  you have is a proficient applicable knowledge of the EPAK lance techniques, then you are equipped to handle the situation. That is, and only, if you can not walk, run, or catch a taxi away. 

Concerning rod techniques, if your opponent has a gun, drawn, and ready to  use, you'd better do whatever you can to survive. This is seldom some drunken testosterone-junky, and he isnt trying to show off for his friends. Use the techniques and whatever else you can to avoid at best, stop, injure, mame, or kill your attacker. I wont call a gun toter an opponent. At this point he is more then a test of ones kenpo skill, he is the enemy and there is nothing but survival.

In the event you get taken to the ground, a working knowledge of escape techniques would undoubtedly be a positive thing, however, as I have previously stated, in my experiences, this is not an occurance that has happened to me. I have tripped, and been kicked while getting back up. I have swept people and taken them down, but I did not join them there. I was content to kick them while they attempt getting up. 

I agree with Darklord, there is an answer within the EPAK world if you look for it.

Gary C.


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## kenpoworks

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> ............... there is an answer within the EPAK world if you look for it.
> Gary C.


you are right Kalicombat, but the trick with kenpo or any other system is not having to start looking for an answer when you really need it! After all we are all experts after the fact.
Also I agree with you about surviving an assault armed or unarmed, being able to walk away is a result, believe it.
Q. do you have all the answers?....EP.I have'nt heard all the questions yet!
Rich


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## MisterMike

Yup. There's an answer in EPAK, Aiki Jujutsu, Aikido, Tai Chi, TKD, Kung Fu, Ju Jutsu, Judo, Karate, etc. if one of those practitioners "sees" the answer. This isn't unique to Kenpo. What is common in Kenpo is someone not seeing the answer played out by one of the 154 or whatever techniques.

By the way? How many knife fights was Ed Parker engaged in? How many times did he have to defend himself from a knife? I'm guessing not enough to claim any true system of knife fighting off of his personal experiences alone. We're studying theory and ideas. I wouldn't get caught up in the "This technique will save my butt" fantasy.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Yup. There's an answer in EPAK, Aiki Jujutsu, Aikido, Tai Chi, TKD, Kung Fu, Ju Jutsu, Judo, Karate, etc. if one of those practitioners "sees" the answer. This isn't unique to Kenpo. What is common in Kenpo is someone not seeing the answer played out by one of the 154 or whatever techniques.
> 
> By the way? How many knife fights was Ed Parker engaged in? How many times did he have to defend himself from a knife? I'm guessing not enough to claim any true system of knife fighting off of his personal experiences alone. We're studying theory and ideas. I wouldn't get caught up in the "This technique will save my butt" fantasy.


Please tell me this post is simple sarcasm.   If not, you have some real problems with Kenpo.      Most people doubt what they don't comprehend and I hear lots of doubt in your text if what you write are your true feelings.

DarK LorD


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## MisterMike

I respect all arts and have no doubts about the integrity of any of them. Just certain practitioners. There was no slight against Kenpo.


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## Likaes the Bandit

There is always room for improvement, in every little thing that people do.


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## Seabrook

Likaes the Bandit said:
			
		

> Cross training is the answer for all those problems


I don't agree. 

In reality, what is happening is that more and more people are cross-training because they lack the persevearance and discipline to learn American Kenpo the right way so they pursue rank in as many arts as possible to push their egos. What is left is a less than optimal skill level in their base art. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## MisterMike

Cross training is good to see other styles' doctrines and strategies of dealing with weapons. Kenpo has its own, but other styles may better suit the particular individual.

Why keep going down the rabbit hole if you're sure it's empty?
There is no 1 single best answer (doctrine, strategy, technique set).


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## MJS

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Cross training is good to see other styles' doctrines and strategies of dealing with weapons.



IMO, this is a good point.  We have defense against weapons and various grappling type attacks, such as a tackle, lapel grab, etc.  These defenses in and of themselves are good, but to further expand our defense against these types of attacks, it may be good to look at an art such as Kali or Arnis for the weapons and Wrestling, BJJ, etc. for the grappling aspect.  

What better person to go to, to learn about weapons, than someone who trains with these weapons on a daily basis?  The same for grappling.  

I've taken some of the various positions from BJJ, put myself in the less dominant one and have come up with some very good ways to fit my Kenpo in.  Again, having someone who can guide you along this path is also a big help.

Mike


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## Kenpoist

The probability that you are going to be attacked by a skilled knife fighter is remote, unless you are somehow being targeted by some would be assassin or ninja clan (let's not get paranoid). 
Most knife attacks are by some telephone tough guy/ mope/ criminal (who obviously can still kill you, but is not a Danny Inosanto knife expert). The kenpo system takes into account the probability of the most likely attack (right handed, basic knife attacks) and has techniques to counter these attacks. I disagree with the previous post stating that the knife techniques were not adequate for the slasher and skilled knife fighter. Someone tell me a "perfect" system for fighting a skilled knife fighter with empty hand. They will cut everything in front of them and take you out at a moments notice. Every gun/knife /club technique can be interchangeable for each respective attack and don't forget the other non-weapons techniques that you have in your arsenal. 
Be aware of your surroundings, get the hell out of there if you can and look for a weapon to use if you find yourself in this predicament.
As previously stated , if you are worried about the "expert", than carry a gun, have a good pair of running shoes on or carry a blade to give the attacker a second thought about coming at you with an attack.

Let's be prepared but not paranoid.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

There are no complete arts, because there are no complete contexts, and arts are developed in context-specific arenas. In the context of judo grapplers who latch on to your lapels to toss you on your heiny, kenpo self-defense includes many options against lapel grabs. Due to the cross-contextual universality of sound basics, you can apply some context-specific techniques to "new" situations...attacks for which there is not a specific counter in kenpo.  That means that:

1.  Kenpo is not a perfect, pure system with pre-planned responses for all possible scenarios. It was never meant to be. It WAS meant to provide you the tools to develop as a practitioner to a point that you could creatively wing it and make up what was needed on the spot, based on your intimate understanding of body mechanics, interactive ballistics, and offense/defense interplay developed through many hours of training and rehearsal (both mental, and physical).

2.  There is information useful for self-defense which resides OUTSIDE the standard kenpo repetoire. HOWEVER, using the vocabulary of motion, developed and understood over time & study, kenpo practitioners are best suited to re-interpret that data and assimilate it into their own vocabularies. Boxers have a hard time elucidating on the mechanics of motion present in a rear cross, but a kenpoist could write a thesis on it. Therefore, with a little training, he could do it. Ideally, better than a boxer (after proper deconstruction/reconstruction).

3.  Parker cross-trained; it's where kenpo came from. Get over it.

4.  The moves out there in other systems being practiced now weren't around in this particular form during the most recent evolutions in EPAK. The Gracies had been in America for a short time only prior to 12/90, and although their end-moves were super-similar to finishing holds from Judo, the transitions they used to get to them -- and the strategies the transitions were buried in -- were significantly different. (Personal note: I was in judo for over a decade, and it remains and integral part of the fighting skills I teach...after brief exposure to the GJJ material, I was able to handily manage and beat my former professors. Not a better me; just a different approach not seen before, so unplanned for). In order to learn how to best respond to a ground assault ala BJJ, it makes sense to me to learn the ins and outs of BJJ. I recently watched a video of a "senior" kenpo practitioner executing a SD tech against the mount...it was evident to me that his ground skills were never really very advanced, but at least he *tried *in the spirit of exploration; most kenpoists won't even get on the ground, much less put time into learning "how" to get on the ground and make it matter.

SO...while it remains unlikely that one will ever bump into a professional slasher or trained knife wielder, it does not -- in my mind -- justify remaining adamantly ignorant about what some of the knife-pro techniques look like. At the bare minimum, learn enough to recognize the grips and stances so you can tell when to disengage and run like hell.

Is there room for improvement in the kenpo knife and stick techs? Of course. Even the founder of our system would have looked at you cross-eyed for insisting the art was flawlessly designed. It was intelligently organized based on logic and need, as opposed to just being a standardized collection of traditional forms...but not flawless. Much of the arts SD techs were developed against what guys in the street were doing in the 50's and 60's as cops and collectors were bumping into attacks they needed viable responses for. Personally, with the increase in weapons availability & televised UFC brawls, I think the average joe crime-element guy on the modern street is a little more sophisticated then they were 30-40 years ago. But again, that doesn't mean kenpo need fail you.

In the end, it will not come down to what you don't know, but how ballsy and battle-ready you are with what you do know. There are lotsa guys out there with little or no training that would bounce black belts around like rubber baby toys, simply because -- in their minds -- they get what it means to be a fighter. Most kenpoists are hobbyists, and realistically will not benefit from EITHER cross-training OR really mastering kenpo to the Nth degree, because they will hardley ever find themselves in a place *in* their lives where they are fighting *for* their lives. Most of the several million kenpo practitioners worldwide will only ever fight for their lives in a hospital bed against enemies like heart disease, cancer and stroke. Last I looked, there was no good kenpo self-defense technique for checking the influences of time.

Train hard, stay real, and lighten up...3-score and ten are up before you know it.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Excellent post Dave.  I agree, very good and independently thought out points.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> The probability that you are going to be attacked by a skilled knife fighter is remote, unless you are somehow being targeted by some would be assassin or ninja clan (let's not get paranoid).
> Most knife attacks are by some telephone tough guy/ mope/ criminal (who obviously can still kill you, but is not a Danny Inosanto knife expert). The kenpo system takes into account the probability of the most likely attack (right handed, basic knife attacks) and has techniques to counter these attacks. I disagree with the previous post stating that the knife techniques were not adequate for the slasher and skilled knife fighter. Someone tell me a "perfect" system for fighting a skilled knife fighter with empty hand. They will cut everything in front of them and take you out at a moments notice. Every gun/knife /club technique can be interchangeable for each respective attack and don't forget the other non-weapons techniques that you have in your arsenal.
> Be aware of your surroundings, get the hell out of there if you can and look for a weapon to use if you find yourself in this predicament.
> As previously stated , if you are worried about the "expert", than carry a gun, have a good pair of running shoes on or carry a blade to give the attacker a second thought about coming at you with an attack.
> 
> Let's be prepared but not paranoid.


Out of curiosity..your information says you're a blue belt in EPAK. How well versed are you in the knife/gun/stick techniques to say whether they are adequate or not? In every EPAK school I've ever visited or trained in you wouldn't have been exposed to the knife/gun except by observation at that level. And there is no perfect system against ANYTHING. SHOW ME the "perfect" system against punches/kicks/tackles/shoots/etc. and show me the expert. I guarantee myself and easily 200 other martial artists I know will nail the expert with the said technique. Your post seems to be anti-crosstraining but you mention 3 seperate systems in your information. I'm curious. Martial artists need to stop training to beat the "regular Joe" and start training to beat "the expert". If someone need Years on top of Years of training JUST to beat the inexperienced local idiot then they need to re-evaluate their training. The real problem is people claim to teach and learn self defense but don't want to train for the really hard self defense scenarios such as (wait for it) trained-experienced attackers. That's why many who say they're in the arts for self defense are really just hobbyists with false bravado looking to say "I know how to defend myself" whether it's true or not. And I'm not saying YOU I'mspeaking in generalities.

My personal opinion and how I train myself and my students: Simple. The worst scenario we can come up with we train for it. Whatever nasty situation we can think of we prepare as much as possible. I'd rather know a good way to defend against a skilled knife-wielder and not need it than need it (i.e. can't run away) and not know it. Suppose there is a skilled knife wielder/attacker and I'm walking with my 4 year old son? Can't out run him carrying a 40 pound child now can I? So what do I do now? That's how I train. Others might want to get over the training for the "best case scenario." If that's all we train for we might as well not train at all.


----------



## MJS

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> The probability that you are going to be attacked by a skilled knife fighter is remote, unless you are somehow being targeted by some would be assassin or ninja clan (let's not get paranoid).
> Most knife attacks are by some telephone tough guy/ mope/ criminal (who obviously can still kill you, but is not a Danny Inosanto knife expert). The kenpo system takes into account the probability of the most likely attack (right handed, basic knife attacks) and has techniques to counter these attacks. I disagree with the previous post stating that the knife techniques were not adequate for the slasher and skilled knife fighter. Someone tell me a "perfect" system for fighting a skilled knife fighter with empty hand. They will cut everything in front of them and take you out at a moments notice. Every gun/knife /club technique can be interchangeable for each respective attack and don't forget the other non-weapons techniques that you have in your arsenal.
> Be aware of your surroundings, get the hell out of there if you can and look for a weapon to use if you find yourself in this predicament.
> As previously stated , if you are worried about the "expert", than carry a gun, have a good pair of running shoes on or carry a blade to give the attacker a second thought about coming at you with an attack.
> 
> Let's be prepared but not paranoid.



IMHO, I feel that Dave and James made excellent posts!  :asian:   James made a good point here:



> Martial artists need to stop training to beat the "regular Joe" and start training to beat "the expert".



I agree with this 100%!  If one wants to excell in something, they need to train with people better than them.  Considering that the FMA's deal with stick and bladed weapons, I'd think that they'd be able to provide some different or possibly better ways to deal with those weapons.  Sure, getting out of the situation is ultimately the best option, but if that option is not available, I for one, would want to have some tools under my belt.  

As for who is delivering these attacks.  Keep in mind that we're not going to know the persons skill level until the attack begins to unfold.  I don't want to assume anything about my attacker.

In closing, it has nothing to do with being paranoid, it has to do with preparing ourselves for the worst case scenario.

Mike


----------



## Kenpoist

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity..your information says you're a blue belt in EPAK. How well versed are you in the knife/gun/stick techniques to say whether they are adequate or not? In every EPAK school I've ever visited or trained in you wouldn't have been exposed to the knife/gun except by observation at that level. And there is no perfect system against ANYTHING. SHOW ME the "perfect" system against punches/kicks/tackles/shoots/etc. and show me the expert. I guarantee myself and easily 200 other martial artists I know will nail the expert with the said technique. Your post seems to be anti-crosstraining but you mention 3 seperate systems in your information. I'm curious. Martial artists need to stop training to beat the "regular Joe" and start training to beat "the expert". If someone need Years on top of Years of training JUST to beat the inexperienced local idiot then they need to re-evaluate their training. The real problem is people claim to teach and learn self defense but don't want to train for the really hard self defense scenarios such as (wait for it) trained-experienced attackers. That's why many who say they're in the arts for self defense are really just hobbyists with false bravado looking to say "I know how to defend myself" whether it's true or not. And I'm not saying YOU I'mspeaking in generalities.
> 
> My personal opinion and how I train myself and my students: Simple. The worst scenario we can come up with we train for it. Whatever nasty situation we can think of we prepare as much as possible. I'd rather know a good way to defend against a skilled knife-wielder and not need it than need it (i.e. can't run away) and not know it. Suppose there is a skilled knife wielder/attacker and I'm walking with my 4 year old son? Can't out run him carrying a 40 pound child now can I? So what do I do now? That's how I train. Others might want to get over the training for the "best case scenario." If that's all we train for we might as well not train at all.


Reference to the proceeding comments - Good points! Of course it is best to expect the unexpected - my point is that I feel that kenpo (the way it is supposed to be taught) has the most realistic SD training I have ever seen, but it is not always taught properly. I'm sure there are techniques out there that you don't like or that don't seem effective. I had several techniques that I felt that way about, until I found an instructor that "opened my eyes" to the way SGM Parker intended for the system to be taught. 

Yes, I am a blue belt - soon to be green -but due to my profession, my instructor has given me more insight into weapons training than would normally be taught at this level.


My comment about being paranoid may be too strong - hope for the best , train for the worst. Be aware of your surroundings and train for life and death. 

If you are interested in other arts, by all means train in them. I have had to train in other arts when EPAK was not available to me.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> Reference to the proceeding comments - Good points! Of course it is best to expect the unexpected - my point is that I feel that kenpo (the way it is supposed to be taught) has the most realistic SD training I have ever seen, but it is not always taught properly. I'm sure there are techniques out there that you don't like or that don't seem effective. I had several techniques that I felt that way about, until I found an instructor that "opened my eyes" to the way SGM Parker intended for the system to be taught.
> 
> Yes, I am a blue belt - soon to be green -but due to my profession, my instructor has given me more insight into weapons training than would normally be taught at this level.
> 
> 
> My comment about being paranoid may be too strong - hope for the best , train for the worst. Be aware of your surroundings and train for life and death.
> 
> If you are interested in other arts, by all means train in them. I have had to train in other arts when EPAK was not available to me.


OK, now I understand where you're coming from.  Thanks for the reply. Hope for the best, train for the worst? EXACTLY!!! That's how I feel.  And You're right about the 'way kenpo is taught in some places is not the proper way' but I wouldn't get too hung up on "the way Mr. Parker intended the system to be" as that changed depending on who Mr. Parker was teaching and what year it was to my understanding.  Doc would be better equiped to expound on that point than I.


----------



## Seabrook

Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized. 

Let's discuss some specifics. 

Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized.
> 
> Let's discuss some specifics.
> 
> Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


I'll bite, but seeking further clarity first. Everyone I've trained with has taught them a bit differently; some better than others. Some have imbued the techniques with a savvy that comes from Phillipino arts cross training; some with sheer testosterone-driven intent to wreak havoc; and some with greater sophistication and thought into the details that matter. So, in consideration that I've never learned the same technique the same way from any of the profs I've been blessed to train with, which one? Which Techs? Version?

Start with some descriptions, and I'll add my 2 cents. But I'z iz not sure where to start.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## MJS

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Okay, so far this thread has been interesting, but very generalized.
> 
> Let's discuss some specifics.
> 
> Which techniques, be it club, knife, or gun, does everyone have a problem with in terms of application? Many people generalize by saying they don't like some of the weapons techniques, but they don't give specifics or why's. List as many as you can and maybe we can work through them to get a better understanding of how they should be applied and where the perceived weaknesses exist.
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



The reason I started this thread, was because I found the thread with the link that I posted to be interesting, as it was addressing one specific weapon.  I figured we'd discuss the blade and club.  One thing that I noticed was missing from that linked thread, and I just might not be seeing it clearly, is some detailed discussion on how those gun techs. need to be 'tweaked' in order to work.  I saw much discussion about the SL4 method vs. the 'motion' or 'commercial' method, but no detailed explainations.  2 pages and I didn't see one clear cut explaination.  This is what I was hoping to achieve here.

My original question was:  Is there anything that needs to be 'tweaked' on the knife and club techs. or will they work fine w/o any 'tweaking'?  I see 2 groups: 1 saying that they are fine the way they are, and another saying that modifications need to be made.  I don't recall saying that they won't work but simply that we may want to look at how other arts, such as a blade or stick based art, addresses defenses.

I agree with you Jamie... To start, I think that we should take 1 defense from each: a club, gun and blade defense, break it down, and see if there are any 'weak spots' or if it is as you say, just perceived.

Mike


----------



## Flying Crane

I personally like some of the club defenses in the Tracy system, but have some very strong reservations regarding the knife defenses.  Most of them don't control the blade very well, and I believe there is a strong possibility that you are going to get cut very badly.  In some cases, is seems like you are taking the risk of almost throwing your fist onto the point of the blade.  Very dangerous.

In light of some of the other comments made, I suppose I may not understand the techniques fully, or perhaps I have not delved deeply enough into them to get them to work, or perhaps my instructor failed to teach me in a way that lead me to understand them, but the bottom line is that I simply do not trust them, and do not practice them anymore.  My instructor has also expressed his doubts about these techniques.  I also checked them against the videos that Mr. Tracy made in about 1980, and I didn't see anything that gave me any extra insights or confidence in them.  I think there must be better options available, either by modifying or creating techniques within the Kenpo system, or borrowing from other systems.  

Michael


----------



## Seabrook

You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.

Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.

So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique. 

Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.  


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Flying Crane

Seabrook said:
			
		

> You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.
> 
> Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.
> 
> So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique.
> 
> Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


do you happen to know if these techniques correlate to certain techniques in the Tracy system?  or could you provide a brief description?  thanks.
I have forgotten the names of most of the Tracys knife, gun, and stick defenses, so I will check these, and then post my contribution.

michael


----------



## MisterMike

You really don't have to look much beyond the empty hand techniques to find ones that will not work.

They teach ideas and the use of various principles, but hardly any of them are gonna come off in the real world as they are written.

To accomodate this, the Kenpo practitioner learns to adapt to the "what-if's" and simply move into another "technique." (Although this is not limited to Kenpo practitioners.)


----------



## Seabrook

MisterMike said:
			
		

> You really don't have to look much beyond the empty hand techniques to find ones that will not work.
> 
> They teach ideas and the use of various principles, but hardly any of them are gonna come off in the real world as they are written.
> 
> To accomodate this, the Kenpo practitioner learns to adapt to the "what-if's" and simply move into another "technique." (Although this is not limited to Kenpo practitioners.)


Oh, no...another broad generalization about "techniques" (note the plural sense, not anything specific). 

I couldn't disagree with you more by the way.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## parkerkarate

Seabrook said:
			
		

> You raise some interesting concerns, and to be honest, I forgot about this thread.
> 
> Interestingly, I still haven't seen anyone name a specific technique that they feel won't work. So far, it's been limited to generalizations.
> 
> So, the heck with it. Let's give this thread some life. I will choose one club, one knife, and one gun technique.
> 
> Let's get everyone take on Checking the Storm, Thrusting Lance, and Defying the Rod.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



Thrusting Lance, hmmmmm, the first half of the technique might work but once you start slicing the guy I think that is where things will not work. Defying the Rod I think you will get killed right away because you need to hop to the side. Ok I can understand Leaping Crane and doing that but when you have a gun to your chest, come on.


----------



## Seabrook

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Thrusting Lance, hmmmmm, the first half of the technique might work but once you start slicing the guy I think that is where things will not work. Defying the Rod I think you will get killed right away because you need to hop to the side. Ok I can understand Leaping Crane and doing that but when you have a gun to your chest, come on.


Thrusting Lance - This technique starts in a right neutral bow as we try to frame the attack so that the opponent will try to stab towards our ribs or stomach area. We then move from point of origin as we step to 4:30 and smash down on the opponent's attacking arm to the radial nerve. Like any weapon attack (which involves CONSIDERABLE RISK), if we are able to get the block, grab to the groin, elbow break, wrist break, and so on in Thrusting Lance, the rest should be the easy part. So I am not in agreement that the later parts of the technique would not work. Also, we only start slicing the guy should the opponent still have the Knife and we have to disarm (which I highly doubt would be the case if you executed your strikes hard and to the precise targets). 

Defying the Rod - where is the hop to the side????? The opponent tells us to put our hands up and as he does we simultaneously do our left outward hooking parry and grab, and at the same time a right front kick to the groin, and a right hand spear to the attacker's eyes. Where is the hop?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## parkerkarate

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Thrusting Lance - This technique starts in a right neutral bow as we try to frame the attack so that the opponent will try to stab towards our ribs or stomach area. We then move from point of origin as we step to 4:30 and smash down on the opponent's attacking arm to the radial nerve. Like any weapon attack (which involves CONSIDERABLE RISK), if we are able to get the block, grab to the groin, elbow break, wrist break, and so on in Thrusting Lance, the rest should be the easy part. So I am not in agreement that the later parts of the technique would not work. Also, we only start slicing the guy should the opponent still have the Knife and we have to disarm (which I highly doubt would be the case if you executed your strikes hard and to the precise targets).
> 
> Defying the Rod - where is the hop to the side????? The opponent tells us to put our hands up and as he does we simultaneously do our left outward hooking parry and grab, and at the same time a right front kick to the groin, and a right hand spear to the attacker's eyes. Where is the hop?
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



Geeze Mr. Petro taught me wrong once again


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## MisterMike

Yea, it's great when things work in the ideal phase, and "by the book."

But anyone who's actually been in a scuffle will tell you things rarely go as "planned."

To further clarify my last post, the shorter techs like Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction may work but once you get into the longer techs or ones with extensions, you can't possibly expect them to come off "by the book." Hence the study of the "what-if's." Position recognition. Variations. Anyone who says this technique will work for "this" or "that" every time (or guaranteed to work even once) is a fraud in my book. I'll stand by my last post. Techniques teach ideas and principles but you have to knwo how and when to switch between them.

But it sure is nice to pretend and feel all tough in class. That's what sells today.


----------



## Seabrook

MisterMike said:
			
		

> But anyone who's actually been in a scuffle will tell you things rarely go as "planned."
> 
> To further clarify my last post, the shorter techs like Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction may work but once you get into the longer techs or ones with extensions, you can't possibly expect them to come off "by the book." Hence the study of the "what-if's." Position recognition. Variations. Anyone who says this technique will work for "this" or "that" every time (or guaranteed to work even once) is a fraud in my book. I'll stand by my last post. Techniques teach ideas and principles but you have to knwo how and when to switch between them.


Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into. 

About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for. 

To be honest Mike, you still haven't offered one ideal phase technique that wouldn't work...

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## Kenpodoc

I can nit pick the Kenpo Knife and gun techniques (the knife techniques go to the inside too much in my opinion.) but I know that very skilled people can make them all work. The big problem I see is that there are only a handful of techniques for each weapon and there need to be more techniques to truly teach weapon defense. The Kenpo Knife and Gun techniques enhance the overall curriculum but are only a taste of Kenpo application in a field that would need further lessons to truly teach Knife and gun application.

Respectfully,

Jeff


----------



## MisterMike

Hi Jamie,

Lately I am trying not to respond directly to people but just add to the thread in a more general manner. But I think we're roughly on the same page.  I've boldened your owrds that sound about the same as what I was saying.




			
				Seabrook said:
			
		

> *Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into*.
> 
> About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for.
> 
> To be honest Mike, *you still haven't offered one ideal phase technique that wouldn't work...*
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


That's because they all work when it's ideal 

I'll ask this though: How many techniques come out when it's time to spar? How many will come out when you're on the street then?


----------



## Seabrook

MisterMike said:
			
		

> I'll ask this though: How many techniques come out when it's time to spar? How many will come out when you're on the street then?


That depends on what type of rules you are using. 

I recently fought full-contact against a guy who has a black belt in jiu-jitsu. We were allowed to fight stand-up and on the ground and I felt that the ram techniques saved me in many situations, especially because I didn't want the fight to go to the ground. While I certainly had to modify strikes (ie. no elbows to the spine, or handsword strikes to the back of the neck), I could see the techniques as they were occuring and most of them worked as written. 

Don't get me wrong. I got banged up as well, but it was a great learning experience, and I came to realize how well our techniques can actually be applied when going full-out and without any choreographed situations. 

Okay Mike. After re-reading some of your posts, I agree that we tend to agree more than we disagree. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


----------



## MJS

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Should an ideal technique not work as planned, there is another ideal phase technique that we can blend into.



Thats true.  Being able to flow from one to the next w/o having to think.  Funny you should say that, as I had a conversation with someone last week about that very topic.



> About the extensions....these offer "what-if" scenarios should the ideal phase go wrong. I agree that in most cases you wouldn't pull of an entire technique with its extension, but often, these are not what the extensions were meant for.



Ahhh...we can't forget about those extensions.  Despite what some call "busy work", they do have alot of value.

I guess what I was hoping for, was an explaination of what "tweaking" needed to be done.  If we go back to my first post, I posted a link to another thread, in which it was mentioned that the gun techs. needed a 'tweak'.   I was simply curious as to what needed to be done.

Mike


----------



## kenpoworks

MJS aka Mike's original question........"_So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?........._
My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."_Do they need to be improved upon_"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.

..."_or are they fine the way that they are_?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
Richie.


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## Flying Crane

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> MJS aka Mike's original question........"_So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?........._
> My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."_Do they need to be improved upon_"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.
> 
> ..."_or are they fine the way that they are_?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
> Richie.


As far as I am concerned, I think you have hit it right on the head.


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## MJS

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> MJS aka Mike's original question........"_So my question is, what are everyones thoughts on the knife and club disarms? Do they need to be improved upon or are they fine the way that they are"?........._
> My opinion on all Kenpo Techniques is that they are not meant to be absolute answers but flexible Ideas,so..."_Do they need to be improved upon_"(mjs)...well if that means working on them, developing them, using the many variables to expand them,etc., etc. well...yes.
> 
> ..."_or are they fine the way that they are_?"(mjs),.. nope, because thats not Kenpo!
> Richie.



Thought I'd breath some life back into this thread.  So, if I'm reading your post correctly, you're saying that if there is a way/need to expand on them, to do it?

Any other weapon techs. out there we could discuss?  I'm still interested in hearing exactly what the tweaking that was mentioned in both this thread and another is.

Mike


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## Seabrook

Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.

Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## parkerkarate

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.
> 
> Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



Glancing lance, the only problem that I have with it is the knee and scoop kick at the end. I beleive the scoop kick dosent really fit.


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## mj-hi-yah

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.
> 
> Let's roll some dicsussion in on this technique.
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


 
The whole thing....it looks pretty in the air and is fun to do but :idunno: ...     In the version we do we step off to avoid the knife and strike the radial nerve on their right arm to create pain and possibly disarm the knife.  How do any of you look at that first strike?  Do you see it as a disarm or as a pain creating distraction?  I like that first strike it is painful, but the strike has to hit in the right place to be really effective, so to me you can't always count on that to disarm.  It's important to control the knife right away.  I'd like to see another option for that first move like a push/pull break to that arm maybe or keep the chop/grab of the wrist and immediately step in with an open palm strike the their left jaw hinge fully extending their head, body and arm (obscuring their vision) so you can control the knife and then follow up with other strikes.  I haven't tried these in this context, they are just some thoughts based on some knife work I've seen. I'll have to experiment with it, but I'm interested to see what anyone else thinks a good first move might be here.


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## parkerkarate

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> The whole thing....it looks pretty in the air and is fun to do but :idunno: ...     In the version we do we step off to avoid the knife and strike the radial nerve on their right arm to create pain and possibly disarm the knife.  How do any of you look at that first strike?  Do you see it as a disarm or as a pain creating distraction?  I like that first strike it is painful, but the strike has to hit in the right place to be really effective, so to me you can't always count on that to disarm.  It's important to control the knife right away.  I'd like to see another option for that first move like a push/pull break to that arm maybe or keep the chop/grab of the wrist and immediately step in with an open palm strike the their left jaw hinge fully extending their head, body and arm (obscuring their vision) so you can control the knife and then follow up with other strikes.  I haven't tried these in this context, they are just some thoughts based on some knife work I've seen. I'll have to experiment with it, but I'm interested to see what anyone else thinks a good first move might be here.



I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.


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## mj-hi-yah

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.


I can visualize your version, and it is somewhat similar to what I learned.  We don't have a chicken kick at the end and there are a few other differences.  You never heard of the heel palm for this technique because I am posing it as a possible alternative.  I am not comfortable trying to get that kick off not knowing whether or not the knife has been secured.  I like that you do an arm break and if you use that to disarm I think it's better than just the chop alone the way I originally learned it.  I do think it's important to create pain on your very first strike so for people who are proficient at that chop to the radial nerve it's very painful and I've seen it used as a disarm, but I wouldn't move on to the kick until I am sure the knife has been freed or is in my posession.  I just think it's too risky.


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## MJS

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> but I wouldn't move on to the kick until I am sure the knife has been freed or is in my posession.  I just think it's too risky.



Good point and I agree.  IMO, getting control of the weapon hand/arm is going to be first and foremost on my list.  I'd rather have control first and then counter, rather than no control, strike and hope that those strikes are going to buy me enough time.

Mike


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## Blindside

I don't particularly like Glancing Lance because you don't step offline of a straight attack.  We start teach zoning offline at yellow belt, so to encourage linear responses to linear attacks at Black seems a little odd to me.  But that is more of a philosophical disagreement than a tech disagreement (if I had to go linear, it would be straight ahead not back, attack the attack.)  

I learned it as a right step back to left neutral bow, right outward hooking parry and left palm heel to the elbow.  From here it is very simple, if they haven't let go of the knife, don't let go of their arm (time to graft).  If they have lost the knife you are still in ideal and the rest of the technique is fine.

Actually you could go two steps more before you have to come back and adjust the tech to deal with the knife again.  After you get the palm-heel to the elbow, front thrust kick to the groin/hip (left hand is grabbing the base of the tricep to maintain control of the weapon arm), right eye poke.

Watch for them to change their weapon hand when you let go of the wrist, if they haven't, come back and readdress the right weapon arm.  

Lamont


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## Seabrook

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> Glancing lance, the only problem that I have with it is the knee and scoop kick at the end.


Huh? What part are you talking about?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## mj-hi-yah

Blindside said:
			
		

> if they haven't let go of the knife, don't let go of their arm (time to graft). If they have lost the knife you are still in ideal and the rest of the technique is fine.


Yes! Secure the weapon first.%-}


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## Blindside

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Huh? What part are you talking about?
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



I've seen a version where after the center-knuckle and elbow, you drive a left knee into the spine to drop them forward onto their stomach, and a right scoop kick to the groin.

Lamont


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## mj-hi-yah

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Huh? What part are you talking about?
> 
> 
> Jamie Seabrook
> www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


See post #66 in his version there is a chicken kick at the end.


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## Seabrook

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I do ot see it as either painful. But I am just trying to get to the kick to stop him in his tracks. I have never heard of the heal-palm. The way I learned it was to get a hold of the arm and break. Do a right frot ball kick to the groin. Plant and slice thir right eye with your right hand. Hop off and ckeck his arm. Kick his right leg down with a right thrusting side kick, plant and slice again, left middle knuckle to the temple, check and deliver right inward elbow to the head. Left knee to the spine than as a ckicken kick with the knee deliver a right scoop kick to the groin. If that makes any sense.


Oh, now I see where you are discussing the move. I end the technique after the elbow to the head.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## pete

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Here is one that often takes a lot of heat: Glancing Lance.
> Let's roll some discussion in on this technique.


here's some thoughts on glancing lance:

. turn your body and get out 'da way of that knife
. double factor that initial right downward/outward strike with a left upward/inward strike up the forearm
. pluck and pull the knife hand at his wrist while hyper extending the elbow with your left.
. if the knife ain't gone, don't let go.  
. if he pulls the knife hand back (retracts), follow his motion and apply a low outward wrist press, drive his elbow into the ground while bringing the blade up to his own throat.  if he's smart, thats where he'll let go of the knife.
. examine alternate targets for the right kick. how about taking out his forward right knee... the pluck and tug should make it weight bearing and an easy target.
. explore the ideal-evenif-ideal phases built in the technique. the hop to get behind him may be for a second attack (hmmm.. where did i see this before?)
. practice restraining the attacker with your knee in his spine, left hand extending his neck, and right hand controling his right arm.

pete


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## mj-hi-yah

pete said:
			
		

> . turn your body and get out 'da way of that knife


I like dat one!


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## Michael Billings

That is definitly what my teacher (Tommy Burks), John Sepulveda, Pat Salantri, et. al. say about it.  I do not really know anyone who stays on the line, and we really try to strike the elbow while controlling the wrist/hand/thumb portion holding the knife.

 -Michael


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