# Favorite Ninjutsu book?



## Justin Chang (Sep 26, 2016)

What is your favorite Ninjutsu book/s and why?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 26, 2017)

'Secrets of the Ninja' by Ashida Kim, simply because it was easily downloadable and absolutely FREE! lol


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 26, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> 'Secrets of the Ninja' by Ashida Kim, simply because it was easily downloadable and absolutely FREE! lol


Omg...well that says pretty much everything I need to know.


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## oaktree (Apr 26, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> 'Secrets of the Ninja' by Ashida Kim, simply because it was easily downloadable and absolutely FREE! lol


Ashida kim has nothing to do with Ninjutsu or any legit martial art, actually he created his own"ninjutsu" which is why it looks like B.S. he also created his own style called no name no art. 
I I like unarmed fighting techniques of the samurai pretty cool book.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 26, 2017)

Yeah I already know all that. But I bet you didn't know I knew that.


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## BujinBos (Apr 26, 2017)

Justin Chang said:


> What is your favorite Ninjutsu book/s and why?



I like "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life". More philosophy than physical training.
Also, I like "Stick Fighting: Techniques of Self-Defense: Masaaki Hatsumi, Quentan Chambers", since it is a step by step instructional book.

You are from Rochester, NY? My wife is from there. We go back on occasionally to visit. Do you train in the Buj?


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 26, 2017)

In all seriousness, I did like Mister R.W. Davis' writings. But I liked Stephen Turnbull's and Stephen Hayes' books even better. They have more to offer, in my humble opinion. I can't say that I really have a favorite book, though.


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## oaktree (Apr 26, 2017)

Hayes, Turnbull, and Davis aren't the greatest sources, compared to hatsumi, tanemura, don roley and others who have lived in Japan. I would also say avoid anything by Anthony, ashida Kim, haha lung and other pseudo guys.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 26, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hayes, Turnbull, and Davis aren't the greatest sources, compared to hatsumi, tanemura, don roley and others who have lived in Japan. I would also say avoid anything by Anthony, ashida Kim, haha lung and other pseudo guys.


I understand your point but I do think Hayes lived in japan. I believe his wife is Japanese if they are still together.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 26, 2017)

The Way of the Ninja and The Essence of Budo, both by Masaaki Hatsumi, both good books. I would take anything any Ninjutsu book by any author though with a grain of salt. You almost need to read all of them to fully get a better understanding of Ninjutsu.

I personally would check out Sima Qian's historical masterpiece the Shiji, which contains a section called the Cike Liezhuan (Biographies of the Assassins), or else I would check out Sun Tzu's historical masterpiece The Art Of War, which has a section devoted to Espionage, from which Ninjutsu probably originated (in China).


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## oaktree (Apr 26, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I understand your point but I do think Hayes lived in japan. I believe his wife is Japanese if they are still together.


Hayes largely wrote a bunch of things that are wrong. The Ninjato is one of them.


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## oaktree (Apr 26, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> The Way of the Ninja and The Essence of Budo, both by Masaaki Hatsumi, both good books. I would take anything any Ninjutsu book by any author though with a grain of salt. You almost need to read all of them to fully get a better understanding of Ninjutsu.
> 
> I personally would check out Sima Qian's historical masterpiece the Shiji, which contains a section called the Cike Liezhuan (Biographies of the Assassins), or else I would check out Sun Tzu's historical masterpiece The Art Of War, which has a section devoted to Espionage, from which Ninjutsu probably originated (in China).


Well considering ninjutsu was created in JAPAN that has some things from sun bing its creation was very Japanese. Kinda of like saying that though swords that Japanese used originally came from China thus looking at Katana one should look at China is not a very good reference.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 27, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hayes largely wrote a bunch of things that are wrong. The Ninjato is one of them.


I wasn't defending him or passing judgment on anything he wrote, you made a comment about people living in japan. I was only stating that I think he lived in japan and was married to a Japanese woman.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> 'Secrets of the Ninja' by Ashida Kim, simply because it was easily downloadable and absolutely FREE! lol



Hmm....



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Yeah I already know all that. But I bet you didn't know I knew that.



Based on the way you've been presenting yourself on the forum thus far, and the questionable grasp on martial arts, reality, history, and more that you have shown, no, we didn't think you would necessarily know that. It may help for you to gain some credibility before attempting such a joke, as it probably won't be read as one initially... 



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> In all seriousness, I did like Mister R.W. Davis' writings. But I liked Stephen Turnbull's and Stephen Hayes' books even better. They have more to offer, in my humble opinion. I can't say that I really have a favorite book, though.



More than Ranford Davis'? Well... that wouldn't be too difficult, would it... that said, Turnbull is a fairly easy read, but has a tendency to oversimplify, and miss much of the nuance and cultural reality, and Hayes' work suffered from his lack of exposure, and the filter of his karate prior (leading to a number of fairly major, as well as a larger number of minor, issues with his publications).



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> The Way of the Ninja and The Essence of Budo, both by Masaaki Hatsumi, both good books. I would take anything any Ninjutsu book by any author though with a grain of salt. You almost need to read all of them to fully get a better understanding of Ninjutsu.



If we're taking "ninjutsu" as the arts promoted as such (i.e. the Takamatsuden), then the books of Hatsumi and Tanemura should be your first port of call... while Hatsumi is more prolific in his writings, he does have a tendency to write in a way that emphasises the "mystical, esoteric" nature he presents... not a bad thing, but it does require quite a fair bit of sifting to figure out what he's actually saying in a lot of places.

If we're talking historical texts, there's not that much to look for... really, what we call "ninjutsu" today was rarely called that back in the day... and wasn't overtly a majorly emphasised aspect. It was, simply, one aspect of warfare... that of espionage primarily... and hardly won enough valour to be notable. In fact, there's more in what was the popular media of the time (ukiyo-e, kabuki, manga etc) showcasing these "ninja" than in military records... but I would start with texts that give an understanding of the prevailing culture of the time. From a martial perspective, I would look to Prof. Karl Friday's work, such as Legacies of the Sword, and Ellis Amdur's Old School... as well as reading old martial texts, such as Heiho Kadensho, which give an idea of the philosophical and strategic thinking applied by warriors of the day.

I do agree that the best approach is to get a good array of sources, and cross-reference... but you do need to be relatively choosy about which sources you choose in the first place.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I personally would check out Sima Qian's historical masterpiece the Shiji, which contains a section called the Cike Liezhuan (Biographies of the Assassins), or else I would check out Sun Tzu's historical masterpiece The Art Of War, which has a section devoted to Espionage, from which Ninjutsu probably originated (in China).



While the Sonshi is oft-cited as the inspiration for "ninjutsu", it's a text of it's time, as many are... and is not that directly related to this topic. The rest of this... no.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 27, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Hayes largely wrote a bunch of things that are wrong. The Ninjato is one of them.



I disagree, mostly because of what I've seen as opposed to what I've heard (btw that sword I had in a photo posted in another thread- which some said was the improper way to hold a katana, it wasn't even a katana lol it was a ninjato). What I mean is, I haven't honestly found much literature on the straight-blade ninja sword. It appears very scarcely in writings. But have you ever looked at some of the Japanese temple statues? A picture tells a thousand words (lol).


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 27, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Well considering ninjutsu was created in JAPAN that has some things from sun bing its creation was very Japanese. Kinda of like saying that though swords that Japanese used originally came from China thus looking at Katana one should look at China is not a very good reference.



Again I disagree, however I understand your perception so allow me to explain why I disagree. I practice Chinese martial art. But I still am open-minded enough to see TCMA's connection to ancient Indian martial arts. In a similar way, I am open-minded enough to see TJMA's connection to Chinese martial arts. All of my research has led to this conclusion. Mind whoever's listening that this notion is also supported by Seiko Fujita and by Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the two leading authorities on Ninjutsu.


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2017)

The ninja to as portrayed by Hayes didn't exist. The closest thing I ever saw to a ninja to sword is the swords used in kagura as they appear straight and are short but that is for performance, however the blades are live.
I have seen Japanese statues any particular one?


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Again I disagree, however I understand your perception so allow me to explain why I disagree. I practice Chinese martial art. But I still am open-minded enough to see TCMA's connection to ancient Indian martial arts. In a similar way, I am open-minded enough to see TJMA's connection to Chinese martial arts.


I practice Chinese and Japanese arts so I can say there is a slight connection but it's like saying mikkyo comes from China even though it has elements of Taoism it is by large a Japanese synthesis. Looking how taijutsu and the kenjutsu in ninjutsu in particular move it looks nothing like Chinese arts except for some small similarities but it is very Japanese in idea and movement.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I disagree, mostly because of what I've seen as opposed to what I've heard (btw that sword I had in a photo posted in another thread- which some said was the improper way to hold a katana, it wasn't even a katana lol it was a ninjato). What I mean is, I haven't honestly found much literature on the straight-blade ninja sword. It appears very scarcely in writings. But have you ever looked at some of the Japanese temple statues? A picture tells a thousand words (lol).



Hmm... you can disagree all you want, but the "ninjato" as seen (straight blade, square tsuba etc) was a work of fiction. The swords depicted in temple statues is a form of tsurugi, a two-edged straight sword from Japanese mythology (realistically, based in early Chinese weapons), and are no evidence in this regard at all.

I saw the pictures of you with a sword. Fantasy doesn't cut it here, sadly. So no... that offered no evidence at all other than that you were holding a replica of a movie prop in a very odd variant of a Chinese (Wing Chun) gung fu posture, in a way that was incredibly poorly suited to the usage of such a weapon. Oh, and distinguishing between a "ninjato", and a "katana" is kinda funny.... as the alternate reading of "ninjato" is "ninja/shinobi-gatana".... as "katana", or "to", simply means sword... so you basically just said "lol, it wasn't a sword, it was a sword"....



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Again I disagree, however I understand your perception so allow me to explain why I disagree. I practice Chinese martial art. But I still am open-minded enough to see TCMA's connection to ancient Indian martial arts. In a similar way, I am open-minded enough to see TJMA's connection to Chinese martial arts.



There's an old saying... don't keep your mind so open your brains fall out.... in other words, being open to fantasy and completely incorrect information doesn't show you're open minded, it shows that you don't have a well developed sense of critical thinking.

Ooh, you added a bit...



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> All of my research has led to this conclusion. Mind whoever's listening that this notion is also supported by Seiko Fujita and by Takamatsu Toshitsugu, the two leading authorities on Ninjutsu.



Then let's clear this up... Takamatsu made the claim that the original sources for a couple of the systems he taught had their origins in China (and India, for that matter), however what made them what they are was their development in Japan, in Japanese culture, and with a very Japanese sense of combative disciplines. Seiko Fujita also stated that the Sonshi was an early inspiration for the methods and usage of ninja... but that is a rather vague statement. The Sonshi was one of the Five Chinese Classics that all nobles were supposed to be versed in from the Heian period onwards... so it's inevitable that there'd be some influence... however the direct line is not so easy to follow, as much of the text is fairly open to interpretation, and the separation of the development of what is commonly felt to be "ninjutsu" and the introduction of the text to Japan was quite a number of centuries....

Again, this is somewhat similar to the idea that the mythical story of Bodhidharma visiting the Shaolin Temple, and thereby starting all martial arts... its' a symbolic story, at it's heart.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 27, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I practice Chinese and Japanese arts so I can say there is a slight connection but it's like saying mikkyo comes from China even though it has elements of Taoism it is by large a Japanese synthesis. Looking how taijutsu and the kenjutsu in ninjutsu in particular move it looks nothing like Chinese arts except for some small similarities but it is very Japanese in idea and movement.



I could agree to an extant on Ninjutsu being a Japanese martial art, with a Japanese kanji name, using mainland Asian strategies adapted to mainland Japanese cultures and traditions. But the core of Ninjutsu is still Chinese in nature. In ancient Japan, such guerilla warfare was shunned by the Japanese who viewed it as dishonorable and cowardly. But in ancient China, deception was the key to all warfare. They didn't concern themselves so much with valour and justice. They had a more realistic view of warfare and how to win using any means necessary. So in many ways, the Ninja are more Chinese than Japanese.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I could agree to an extant on Ninjutsu being a Japanese martial art, with a Japanese kanji name, using mainland Asian strategies adapted to mainland Japanese cultures and traditions. But the core of Ninjutsu is still Chinese in nature. In ancient Japan, such guerilla warfare was shunned by the Japanese who viewed it as dishonorable and cowardly. But in ancient China, deception was the key to all warfare. They didn't concern themselves so much with valour and justice. They had a more realistic view of warfare and how to win using any means necessary. So in many ways, the Ninja are more Chinese than Japanese.



Dude. Stop now. You're just wrong. Deception was just as much a part of Japanese warfare, combative methods, and so on as it was anywhere else. Ninjutsu is purely Japanese, and thoroughly Japanese in it's methodology, culture, and so forth.

Seriously, this is completely wrong in everything you're saying. Up to and including the idea that "ninja" were guerrilla warriors....


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 27, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm... you can disagree all you want, but the "ninjato" as seen (straight blade, square tsuba etc) was a work of fiction. The swords depicted in temple statues is a form of tsurugi, a two-edged straight sword from Japanese mythology (realistically, based in early Chinese weapons), and are no evidence in this regard at all.
> 
> Oh, and distinguishing between a "ninjato", and a "katana" is kinda funny.... as the alternate reading of "ninjato" is "ninja/shinobi-gatana".... as "katana", or "to", simply means sword... so you basically just said "lol, it wasn't a sword, it was a sword"....
> 
> ...




Well thank you for this informative post. That's a lot of knowledge to retain. You obviously know more than a lot of us about this subject. That's awesome. Thank you again. I apologize for my misconceptions. I do have to question one thing you said though. If the alternative reading of "ninjato" is "shinobi-gatana," then the literal translation should be "ninja sword," correct? Therefore by calling it a ninjato and not a katana, what I'm really saying is "it wasn't a curved sword, it was a ninja sword," quite literally. Or does my Japanese need help? Thanks for clarifying.


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I could agree to an extant on Ninjutsu being a Japanese martial art, with a Japanese kanji name, using mainland Asian strategies adapted to mainland Japanese cultures and traditions. But the core of Ninjutsu is still Chinese in nature. In ancient Japan, such guerilla warfare was shunned by the Japanese who viewed it as dishonorable and cowardly. But in ancient China, deception was the key to all warfare. They didn't concern themselves so much with valour and justice. They had a more realistic view of warfare and how to win using any means necessary. So in many ways, the Ninja are more Chinese than Japanese.


I would say this is a rather fictional romantic idea of Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art the core of it is Japanese with some influences from China are possible the methods if any from Chinese arts would have been modified, changed. To understand the Japanese you have to understand honne and tatemae. So the whole dishonorable and cowardly thing was more common then we think.  As Chris said the word ninjutsu wasn't used there were other terms used especially depending on the era.


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## oaktree (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well thank you for this informative post. That's a lot of knowledge to retain. You obviously know more than a lot of us about this subject. That's awesome. Thank you again. I apologize for my misconceptions. I do have to question one thing you said though. If the alternative reading of "ninjato" is "shinobi-gatana," then the literal translation should be "ninja sword," correct? Therefore by calling it a ninjato and not a katana, what I'm really saying is "it wasn't a curved sword, it was a ninja sword," quite literally. Or does my Japanese need help? Thanks for clarifying.


To is the On reading Katana is the kun reading.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 27, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Well thank you for this informative post. That's a lot of knowledge to retain. You obviously know more than a lot of us about this subject. That's awesome. Thank you again. I apologize for my misconceptions. I do have to question one thing you said though. If the alternative reading of "ninjato" is "shinobi-gatana," then the literal translation should be "ninja sword," correct? Therefore by calling it a ninjato and not a katana, what I'm really saying is "it wasn't a curved sword, it was a ninja sword," quite literally. Or does my Japanese need help? Thanks for clarifying.



Your understanding of the context needs a lot of help, yes. There was NO SUCH THING as a straight "ninja sword" outside of the movies. So, no, what you were saying was that it wasn't a fantasy sword, it was a sword... 

As to my knowledge of this subject, you may want to do a search for my posts... start with the Ninjutsu section... then the Koryu one....


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 27, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Your understanding of the context needs a lot of help, yes. There was NO SUCH THING as a straight "ninja sword" outside of the movies. So, no, what you were saying was that it wasn't a fantasy sword, it was a sword...
> 
> As to my knowledge of this subject, you may want to do a search for my posts... start with the Ninjutsu section... then the Koryu one....



If the straight ninja sword is not an authentic ninja sword, then why do so many Ninjutsu practitioners use the ninjato? What ninja school doesn't promote use of a ninjato? Where did the ninjato come from and how did it inbed its way into ninja movies, books, comics, martial arts, etc? Why does Stephen Hayes use a ninjato? Why do other alleged masters and authors also make use and mention of a ninjato? Why do some of them even have books with entire chapters dedicated to the ninjato? What is the significance of it? Why is ninjutsu so intertwined with kabuki stage shows? What makes the ninjato a fantasy sword? And do you believe that a ninjato can still be used to cause injury or death despite its quality and design?


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## Chris Parker (Apr 28, 2017)

Oh boy.... you really want to do this?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> If the straight ninja sword is not an authentic ninja sword,



It's not, and there is no historical basis for it.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> then why do so many Ninjutsu practitioners use the ninjato?



They don't. The only groups that do are completely fraudulent Western groups who base their "martial arts" on their own fantasies and what they see in movies.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What ninja school doesn't promote use of a ninjato?



All of the legitimate ones. The closest is a specific form of (curved, but shorter) sword used in Togakure Ryu, but it's still not the same as the movie-style straight bladed "ninjato".



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Where did the ninjato come from and how did it inbed its way into ninja movies, books, comics, martial arts, etc?



A prop designer for the Japanese movies came up with them, as they were easier to make, and were an easy way to identify "good guys" and "bad guys"... not too dissimilar to the Western ideal of a "black hat" and "white hat" cowboy.... not based in anything accurate, historical, or realistic, but a simple visual shorthand to inform the audience.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does Stephen Hayes use a ninjato?



His early work did feature the movie prop, as he found one in a store in Japan, and decided to use it... that was not based in anything he was taught, but was an assumption he made before he knew better... and, sadly, attempted to defend such an action before finally admitting that it was baseless.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why do other alleged masters and authors also make use and mention of a ninjato?



Who? Name me one legitimate "master" who use such a tool?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why do some of them even have books with entire chapters dedicated to the ninjato?



Not knowing who you're referring to, the books your'e referencing, or the chapters contained, and taking into account your early defence of your reading of Ashida Kim (Ranford Davis/Christopher Hunter), it's entirely possible that you're reading the works of completely illegitimate (uneducated, fraudulent) "teachers" whose only claim is their own delusion.



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What is the significance of it?



There isn't any. It's a movie prop. 



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why is ninjutsu so intertwined with kabuki stage shows?



You have that backwards. And it's not a huge part of kabuki, you know... 



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What makes the ninjato a fantasy sword?



Besides the fact that it's a completely fantasy based item, with no basis in reality, history, functional use, and more? Really?



Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> And do you believe that a ninjato can still be used to cause injury or death despite its quality and design?



Dude, that has to be one of the most idiotic arguments you've made... the fact that you can injure with something means nothing in this regard... I mean, I could do you a hell of a lot of damage with a pink plastic lawn flamingo... does that mean that plastic flamingoes were designed as a lethal weapon with a history stretching back centuries?

I'm going to finish simply. You have no idea what you're talking about. I recommend strongly you recognise this, and stop making yourself look foolish.


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2017)

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> If the straight ninja sword is not an authentic ninja sword, then why do so many Ninjutsu practitioners use the ninjato?


No legit school with ties to Japan use it. 


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What ninja school doesn't promote use of a ninjato?


Any legit school or off shoot that has or has ties to Japan.


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Where did the ninjato come from and how did it inbed its way into ninja movies, books, comics, martial arts, etc?


Most likely from Kabuki plays who often used smaller swords.


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does Stephen Hayes use a ninjato? Why do other alleged masters and authors also make use and mention of a ninjato


Who knows maybe a misunderstanding with the sword from the Togakure ryu? What other masters and authors? 


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why do some of them even have books with entire chapters dedicated to the ninjato?


Depends on who it is, many students were Hayes so that may be a reason why.


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why is ninjutsu so intertwined with kabuki stage shows?


It really isn't.   


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> What makes the ninjato a fantasy sword


It is not practical. 


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> And do you believe that a ninjato can still be used to cause injury or death despite its quality and design?


Any sharp object can do so. However the blade would be brittle by design. There is a reason Japanese swords are the way they are and are not straight like an arrow because they break.


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2017)

Wow Chris is almost like we had word for word lol.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 28, 2017)

Well, you have education and all, so.... ha!


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 28, 2017)

My favorite books on the subject of Shinobi are the Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden, Antony Cummins has by far done the best job of giving the Western World accurate information on the Shinobi.  This inevitably resulted in hatred from those groups professing to be the only source for authentic study of Shinobi arts especially because what he translated paints a picture of the Shinobi that is very different from the image the various commercial ninja cults were trying to sell the western world. To his credit he has a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and a masters in Archaeology. He is the founder of the Historical Ninjutsu Research Team, who examine and translate ancient documents to reveal the truth about the Shinobi. He works with native Japanese language experts who know how to translate the ancient language of the scrolls, he consults with recognized Koryu experts some of whom have a background in a historically verifiable elements of what we call Ninjutsu. For example the head of the Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu and the head of the Koga Ban Family to name a few who review his work and make suggestions and share their insights. 

For those of you who don't understand why Antony Cummins gets criticized by organizations teaching various techniques of unarmed combat and referring to it as authentic ninjutsu it is because his team's research verified what the old martial scholars used to say about the Shinobi and contradicted the commercial sales pitch that came about during the Ninja Boom years, that is that their is no authentic, verifiable, unbroken line of Ninjutsu specializing in unarmed karate-jujutsu moves, The techniques of the Shinobi are those of infiltration, disguise, poison, sabotage, espionage, escape and evasion, etc. basically they mirror the skills of a highly skilled thief, while the ability to fight with a weapon is good for a thief to know as well as a Shinobi, they simply augmented their Shinobi skills with the various Martial Arts available in Japan at the time. If you spent 20+ years telling everyone that you were the last remaining true source of authentic Ninjutsu remaining on Earth while at the same time teaching people over extending punches and kicks with poor body mechanics that would actually injure the practitioners back muscles, throws and takes downs that except for what was stolen from other martial arts not work very well as the real deal and along comes some guy who puts together a team circumnavigates the cults and the sales pitches and gets right to translating the scrolls that we do know are from authentic shinobi no mono and suddenly people in the west can see that they been had... the only recourse those too heavily invested in their myth can do is try to discredit and attack the individual, since they lack the ability to actually discredit his work. 

When I heard about Antony Cummins I took the time to befriend him and get to know what he was about, he loves what he does and he is an honorable man. Placing him in the same category as the Asida Kim's of the world would be a mistake. Just my two cents my, don't kill the messenger, peace.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 28, 2017)

Just no.


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## BuckerooBonzai (Apr 28, 2017)

Dang!  This is so entertaining!

Thanks all!


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> My favorite books on the subject of Shinobi are the Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden, Antony Cummins has by far done the best job of giving the Western World accurate information on the Shinobi.


For the record *Anthony did not write the book!! *He has *A Translating group who does not understand a lot of the context*. It is very difficult to do translations correct if you do not know context especially during olden time periods.


Sami Ibrahim said:


> This inevitably resulted in hatred from those groups professing to be the only source for authentic study of Shinobi arts especially because what he translated paints a picture of the Shinobi that is very different from the image the various commercial ninja cults were trying to sell the western world. To his credit he has a degree in Ancient History and Archaeology and a masters in Archaeology.


Does he understand ancient Japanese language and can read the Kanji because even for actual Japanese citizens they have a hard time understanding older kanji especially when it comes to martial arts. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> He is the founder of the Historical Ninjutsu Research Team, who examine and translate ancient documents to reveal the truth about the Shinobi


I can say possible those people may be able to read and understand Kanji but Anthony can not so what does he do? Seems take credit.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> For those of you who don't understand why Antony Cummins gets criticized by organizations teaching various techniques of unarmed combat and referring to it as authentic ninjutsu it is because his team's research verified what the old martial scholars used to say about the Shinobi and contradicted the commercial sales pitch that came about during the Ninja Boom years, that is that their is no authentic, verifiable, unbroken line of Ninjutsu specializing in unarmed karate-jujutsu moves, The techniques of the Shinobi are those of infiltration, disguise, poison, sabotage, espionage, escape and evasion, etc. basically they mirror the skills of a highly skilled thief, while the ability to fight with a weapon is good for a thief to know as well as a Shinobi, they simply augmented their Shinobi skills with the various Martial Arts available in Japan at the time. If you spent 20+ years telling everyone that you were the last remaining true source of authentic Ninjutsu remaining on Earth while at the same time teaching people over extending punches and kicks with poor body mechanics that would actually injure the practitioners back muscles, throws and takes downs that except for what was stolen from other martial arts not work very well as the real deal and along comes some guy who puts together a team circumnavigates the cults and the sales pitches and gets right to translating the scrolls that we do know are from authentic shinobi no mono and suddenly people in the west can see that they been had... the only recourse those too heavily invested in their myth can do is try to discredit and attack the individual, since they lack the ability to actually discredit his work.


So a guy who takes credit for other people's translating should be taken as the source rather than actual Japanese who have done more research in the field than Anthony has been alive lol. I find it interesting you would take Anthony side over Don Roley who is most likely one of the authorities on Ninjutsu and Japanese language in the West.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> When I heard about Antony Cummins I took the time to befriend him and get to know what he was about, he loves what he does and he is an honorable man. Placing him in the same category as the Asida Kim's of the world would be a mistake. Just my two cents my, don't kill the messenger, peace.


Well I guess he is now what the grand master of some dead ninja school that the family most likely were like sure whatever thanks for the money have fun playing ninja.


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2017)

Speaking about translating older texts it is a lot of work, though there are modern commentaries for all the person translating knows they could be wrong too lol.
  Another problem is reading Kanji/Hanzi sometimes what is meant say 100 years ago may not mean the same thing now, sometimes depending on the context may be a play on words or hell even a spelling error! 

Sometimes commentaries are just saying what they think it means though the original passage may be something different. If someone is not familiar with context you get a translation that may be word for word but not what the author is really saying.

Asking the average Japanese to translate a Ninjutsu book from over 300 years ago well they are not going to understand a lot of the readings unless they specialize in that type of subject. In conversations with other Japanese and Chinese on translating ancient books for example they might translate say the word thunder bolt which is English correct however the correct term would be a vajra because they do not understand context.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I understand your point but I do think Hayes lived in japan. I believe his wife is Japanese if they are still together.





Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> Why does Stephen Hayes use a ninjato?



Just FYI, Steve Hayes only lived a short time in Japan and was relatively inexperienced in the art at the point he started writing books.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 28, 2017)

oaktree said:


> For the record *Anthony did not write the book!! *He has *A Translating group who does not understand a lot of the context*. It is very difficult to do translations correct if you do not know context especially during olden time periods.
> 
> Does he understand ancient Japanese language and can read the Kanji because even for actual Japanese citizens they have a hard time understanding older kanji especially when it comes to martial arts.
> 
> ...



I never said he wrote books I said his team translated authentic shinobi scrolls, I apologize for any confusion.

Does he understand ancient Japanese language? He understands a little bit but he knows that language is not his area of expertise, that is why he has a team including language experts and Japanese Koryu heads etc that all work together to produce the best translation and so they can make sure its in the correct context. No translation is flawless but it certainly represents the best work available to the Western audience of authentic shinobi scrolls.

As for taking credit? He never takes credit for other peoples works, he always speaks so highly of his team and gives credit where credit is due including to the actual shinobi that put the original scrolls together in the first place.

You find it interesting that I would take Antony's side over someone named Don Roley, if I recall correctly Roley was a member of one of the groups claiming to be the only authentic source of Ninjutsu information from some unbroken lineage going back more generations than even the oldest recognized Koryu system in Japan. Like claiming to have a computer in 1855. Other than that I don't know much about the guy but let me keep an open mind, can you direct me to his English translated versions of the Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden so I can compare them with what Antony's team put together and see just how different they really are? For you to tout this Roley gentlemen as being a superior choice of insight his English translations of authentic Shinobi scrolls must be superb indeed.

I don't think Antony is claiming to be a grand master but if he is, who cares, I am just recommending his teams  translated scrolls as the best insight into authentic shinobi traditions because as far as I know they are, I am very interested in anyone else's english translations of those same works so I can compare them?


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## oaktree (Apr 28, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> I never said he wrote books I said his team translated authentic shinobi scrolls, I apologize for any confusion.


Who are not the best people to translate because his Kanji club does not understand the context.


Sami Ibrahim said:


> Does he understand ancient Japanese language? He understands a little bit but he knows that language is not his area of expertise


So then maybe he shouldn't put his name on the book since you know he did not translate it! 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> that is why he has a team including language experts and Japanese Koryu heads etc that all work together to produce the best translation and so they can make sure its in the correct context


One ryuha may not be the best source to speak about the context of another ryuha that they do not know about. They may give what they think it means but without the kuden, without the context it may not be correct. Japanese have two faces so what I think is they were just being polite with Anthony, but I seriously doubt anyone is taking him serious you would have to understand Japanese context and mannerism. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> No translation is flawless but it certainly represents the best work available to the Western audience of authentic shinobi scrolls.


A translation that may miss the point of what its original author meant isn't much of a translation I think.


Sami Ibrahim said:


> if I recall correctly Roley was a member of one of the groups claiming to be the only authentic source of Ninjutsu information from some unbroken lineage going back more generations than even the oldest recognized Koryu system in Japan.


You do know that Hatsumi has other scrolls from other koryu school. So what you are saying is  closer to authentic Ninjutsu is a white guy who can't speak or read Japanese who has no ninjutsu teacher is more authentic? 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> . Other than that I don't know much about the guy but let me keep an open mind, can you direct me to his English translated versions of the Bansenshukai, Shoninki and Ninpiden


Why don't you email him yourself. Why not email Roy Ron he has translated some himself. Those two understand the context and speak and understand the language. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> For you to tout this Roley gentlemen as being a superior choice of insight his English translations of authentic Shinobi scrolls must be superb indeed.


I trust someone who speaks and reads the language and understands context over someone who can't. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> I am very interested in anyone else's english translations of those same works so I can compare them?


Or why don't you go learn Japanese and read the actual kanji yourself. 

As I have said before and I am speaking as someone who does translate without context you won't translate correctly. Unless you Sami can read kanji having a debate with you is pointless.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 28, 2017)

Antony Cummins is clueless.  As Chris said "just no".  Antony is at best an individual trying to make a buck with little to no idea what he is doing.  Even worse that his books on Ninjutsu are his books on Vikings.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu (Apr 28, 2017)

I've heard of Mister Cummins, and I think I may have even visited his YouTube channel once or twice. But other than that I don't know much about him or his opposition.

Earlier there was a whole lot of mention in regard to 'legitimate' Ninjutsu masters and schools. Which ones do the Japanese regard as legitimate?

I also want to say thank you all for turning this into an interesting thread. I must admit that I'm not very knowledgeable about the finer, technical aspects of Ninjutsu (everything I learned about ninja came from books and videos, except for the two or three semi-authentic Ninjutsu practitioners I met who only showed me a little bit of what they know). So if I sound like I have no idea what I'm talking about, it's because I probably don't (lol). I blame the ninja for being confusing and manipulating my mind with their publishers and politics.

I haven't heard anyone mention Seiko Fujita yet. What is your take on his Ninjutsu and are there any books on it?


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## oaktree (Apr 29, 2017)

Most average Japanese really do not believe anyone is a ninjutsu master, any more than someone in western society believing someone is a medieval knight. For the sake of actual Japanese martial artist most likely Hatsumi or one of his previous students would most likely be the most knowledgeable on the subject. There is some controversy on Togakure ryu but there is controversy in a lot of koryu arts. It is very possible that Togakure were things taught to Takamatsu who synthesize pieces together and called it Togakure ryu. I would say even if Takamatsu did make it up from some books, his background in other arts his research and understanding the context would still produce a better source than Anthony. 
We do know that Takamatsu was soke in legit koryu arts and was more well known for kukishinden ryu I think in those martial art circles during that time.


Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I haven't heard anyone mention Seiko Fujita yet. What is your take on his Ninjutsu and are there any books on it?


Don Roley did a translation of his work.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Who are not the best people to translate because his Kanji club does not understand the context.
> 
> So then maybe he shouldn't put his name on the book since you know he did not translate it!
> 
> ...



So the guy you claim is superior has not publically translated any authentic Ninjutsu scrolls to make them available to the Western public despite having this understanding of kuden but if I email him or someone named Roy Ron they would give me private translations of the entire Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and Shoninki, well you don't have to twist my arm, give me their e-mail addresses and I will ask them for these translations. I don't have as much time as I would like to learn fluent Japanese, its on my to do list, I already speak and understand several languages but have trouble reading them so I am working on that, currently trying to learn to speak the various languages in Indonesia, never enough time lol. Anyway thank you for your recommendations please give me those e-mails and after I compare their translations I will let everyone know if they were drastically different. 

I trust Antony Cummins and his work seems to fit everything I know about Shinobi but I am keeping an open mind about the experts your recommending who have been taught the kuden of the ryuha that the scrolls come from... I really didn't think it was possible because I thought the Hattori Ryu and the others were extinct and nobody was passing down the kuden of those arts.


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## oaktree (Apr 29, 2017)

After writing a rather long reply, I decided why bother, if someone wants to believe Anthony over people who can read kanji and lived in Japan and study the actual arts it's fine.

If you watch Anthony skills you can see how laughable they are. 

So until you learn kanji trying to convince you otherwise is a waste of time, go Google Roy Ron and don roley your self


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

oaktree said:


> After writing a rather long reply, I decided why bother, if someone wants to believe Anthony over people who can read kanji and lived in Japan and study the actual arts it's fine.
> 
> If you watch Anthony skills you can see how laughable they are.
> 
> So until you learn kanji trying to convince you otherwise is a waste of time, go Google Roy Ron and don roley your self



Perhaps you should refrain from attacking him personally on an internet forum so you don't come off as a keyboard warrior. If his translations of Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and Shoninki are so flawed due to his team not being privy to the kuden of the respective ryuha of those scrolls, it stands to reason that the person making all the claims of how piss poor the translators work is would be able to produce a translation of those respective scrolls so that any reasonable person could compare them and decide for themselves. Instead of being reasonable or even pointing out some of the supposed glaring issues that were mistranslated in the scrolls by Antony's team, we have instead personal attacks about his skill level and demands that the language be learned, though in the same breath the critics state that unless the kuden for the respective ryuha is known the translator would be translating the scroll out of context. If you really want to muddy the waters perhaps you should make a fuss about how the scrolls were not the original and that the original scroll was very different, like they do with bible debates lol.

I'm trying hard to take this seriously, the OP asked for our opinion, my three picks are all well known authentic scrolls on "ninjutsu" the only publicly available English translations of these scrolls is by Antony's team, if you know of some other translation available to the public by all means share, instead I am told to contact some one named Roy or Don and ask their unbiased opinion because supposedly they are experts on the language, I keep an open mind, I ask for their emails, I want to compare line by the the translations of Antony's team with their own translation to see how they differ. Again I am keeping an open mind I am leaving room for the possibility that something translated by a team of language experts and someone with a Masters degree in Archaeology may have goofed something up despite it being reviewed by experts in the various old martial traditions but no we can't have a discussion on the actual content that is mistranslated we have to resort to childish commentary about the supposed lack of skill of Antony from people that likely never fought him and haughty remarks about how kuden is required but God forbid we actually discuss just what that Kuden is... no that is reserved for the paying customers I mean members of the super secret real ninja club lol.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

By the way it did not go unnoticed that nobody has remarked about my comment about the Ryuha that claims to be older than Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu... in its 34th generation supposedly lol... high turn-over rate or perhaps all the Soke were killed when they threw an over extended Koppo-style punch in war.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 29, 2017)

Here is what you cannot escape, Ninjutsu has very little to do with unarmed self-defense techniques like your Karate or Jujutsu type of schools, Shinobi may come with different specializations but this myth about their being an unarmed ninja fighting method passed down for generations and is now locally available in your mini-mall commercial studios in the west is absolutely ridiculous. I am sorry I really enjoyed all those ninja movies in the 80s especially American Ninja and Ninja Turtles and its great that it motivates young kids to take up martial arts but I get tired of watching westerners get prayed upon by cunning Asian businessmen selling the Hollywood ninja hype. That is the real reason Antony is so hated he gave the western audience access to scrolls that outlined a great deal about actual shinobi techniques and none of which matched up with the garbage being put out by these ninja con-artists. That being said if you belong to an organization or school and you are happy with what your learning and you know that you can make what you train functional, more power to you, keep going or as Hatsumi would say shut up and train.


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## oaktree (Apr 30, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Perhaps you should refrain from attacking him personally on an internet forum so you don't come off as a keyboard warrior.


Sami I have no problem saying all this in Anthony's face.


Sami Ibrahim said:


> If his translations of Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and Shoninki are so flawed due to his team not being privy to the kuden of the respective ryuha of those scrolls, it stands to reason that the person making all the claims of how piss poor the translators work is would be able to produce a translation of those respective scrolls so that any reasonable person could compare them and decide for themselves. I


Since you are to lazy to actually google. 
Shoninki index
Freestyle




Sami Ibrahim said:


> we have instead personal attacks about his skill level and demands that the language be learned,


Are you Kidding me?! the very job of a translator is to know the language! 
I think what Don said is the most important here *"All I have to do is show that you did not translate, but instead slipped your own ideas in under the guise of it being part of the original.And people can look at this and conclude that if they want a pure translation that is honest in keeping someone's opinion separate from the original material, then they have to go elsewhere. Your translation is badly flawed by this kind of action."-http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96472&page=16
*
A person who is translating is to translate the text not put what they think it means in the actual texts. Commentaries are to be done at the bottom. When you put in the translation what you think it says and have no basis or understanding of context your opinion on the matter has no weight. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> If you really want to muddy the waters perhaps you should make a fuss about how the scrolls were not the original and that the original scroll was very different, like they do with bible debates lol.


You can buy these type of things in Japanese used books stores I have seen them, of course they are not original.


Sami Ibrahim said:


> I'm trying hard to take this seriously, the OP asked for our opinion, my three picks are all well known authentic scrolls on "ninjutsu


No one is saying the actual scrolls are not good to read but the translation is mixed with someone's inexperience commentary as well as people who do not know the context.
Basically it is like this. A person finds a book on Shingon Buddhism  has a Japanese person translate it then takes the translation and adds his own words into the meaning even though he is not a priest or really doesn't know much about the subject. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> if you know of some other translation available to the public by all means share, instead I am told to contact some one named Roy or Don and ask their unbiased opinion because supposedly they are experts on the language, I keep an open mind, I ask for their emails, I want to compare line by the the translations of Antony's team with their own translation to see how they differ


The problem is if you don't know Kanji how would you know who is right or not? Lets pretend Anthony never existed for a minute, if the Kanji club published the book and translated the text, wrote a commentary it might not get to much flack it may not be as accurate because they might know context but hey better than nothing. But lets say they just translated it with no commentary and some guy gets their draft and then starts adding what he thinks which isn't 100% bad yet, but then this guy has no knowledge on the subject 
 it means the original meaning starts to change and becomes distorted.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> Again I am keeping an open mind I am leaving room for the possibility that something translated by a team of language experts and someone with a Masters degree in Archaeology may have goofed something up despite it being reviewed by experts in the various old martial tradition



The language experts I am assuming the Kanji club may be able to translate the kanji word for word but the context may not be accurate.
Let me give you some examples: 
I am going to type the english, than the kanji, than a google translation of kanji, than context. 
The sun sits in the center, focus on the center to let the air raise only when you close the gate can you see heaven.-My english translation(understanding context)
日座于中，凝聚中心让气上升，紧闭门户方见苍穹。
Sitting in the center, the cohesion center to gas up, closed the door to see the sky.-Google translate(kanji club)
CommentaryThe sun represents Yang Qi the center is the Dan tian, The Air is the Qi circulating, closing the gate is the hui yin contraction, seeing heaven is becoming immortal, so the translation is when you focus on your center the energy will be drawn there after enough time the energy will raise pass through the gate up the spine and form the spirit which in enough time will travel to heaven to be an immortal.) 



Sami Ibrahim said:


> resort to childish commentary about the supposed lack of skill of Antony from people that likely never fought him and haughty remarks about how kuden is required but God forbid we actually discuss just what that Kuden is


Well being that I actually train in Katori Shinto ryu I can say his sword skills suck.
So you think people who know Kuden should just give it to strangers? 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> By the way it did not go unnoticed that nobody has remarked about my comment about the Ryuha that claims to be older than Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu.


I addressed it already but in case you are to lazy or can not read well here:
 "*There is some controversy on Togakure ryu but there is controversy in a lot of koryu arts. It is very possible that Togakure were things taught to Takamatsu who synthesize pieces together and called it Togakure ryu." Katori Shinto ryu was founded by a vision. *
The history may have been embellish, may have been some oral or the school may have been created entirely by Takamatsu based on some legit waza he learned. 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> Here is what you cannot escape, Ninjutsu has very little to do with unarmed self-defense techniques like your Karate or Jujutsu type of schools,


 I am sorry where in Japan did you train again? 


Sami Ibrahim said:


> Shinobi may come with different specializations but this myth about their being an unarmed ninja fighting method passed down for generations and is now locally available in your mini-mall commercial studios in the west is absolutely ridiculous


And you are basing this on what exactly?  Did you forget the Ninja Juhakkei and Bugei Juhappan because Jujutsu is there and seeing how most Ninja were of the warrior class it is reasonable that they knew Jujutsu to some degree. By the way speaking of Jujutsu have you seen say Katori Shinto ryu jujutsu? It is very crude. 

For the record I do not study Ninjutsu I study Daito ryu and Katori Shinto ryu as well as Chinese arts


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 30, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Sami I have no problem saying all this in Anthony's face.
> 
> Since you are to lazy to actually google.
> Shoninki index
> ...




Overall, I really enjoyed your response, thank you for putting some effort into it. I pulled out my copy of "True Path of the Ninja" and I immediately noticed that both Antony Cummins and Yoshie Minami are on the cover as well as Otake Risuke who writes the forward and Dr. Nakashima Atsumi who does the preface, all named on the cover. In addition to the translation of a 17th century instruction manual (Shoninki) it also includes a section on defense against shinobi from the Katori Shinto Ryu Sword School. Anyway, the reason I pulled out the book is because after I read your post where you quoted Don saying all he had to do was show that he did not translate but slipped in his own ideas etc... I recalled that Antony made no secret of this and clearly stated it at the start of the book, so I wanted to be sure. 

On page 17 "The Feel of the Translation" he explains why he integrated information normally found in the footnotes into the text, i.e. for many of the same reasons you and others have alluded to. A literal word for word translation would have contained a great many things that would have made little to no sense to someone with a modern frame of reference. So no need to prove it, its no secret, he is definitely weaving his footnotes into the book to help us non-17th century shinobi understand what the heck we are reading. 

I will check out your links after I finish typing this just wanted to let you know that the effort you spent in responding to me is not going to be wasted I will maintain an open mind and check out your links. Also while it is true that Katori Shinto Ryu was founded by a vision it is a well establish and recognized Ryu-ha, the oldest if I am not mistaken while Togakure Ryu turned out to be as you said. Also I agree with you about Shinobi having trained in the warrior arts available i.e. Jujutsu etc. what I was saying is that the con-artists out there signing up students to learn Ninjutsu but only teaching them bad karate or crude jujutsu but claiming that it is the foundation for all ninjutsu skills is misleading students, the training of actual Ninjutsu in America would be on the FBI watch list so fast, could you imagine some Ninjutsu Sensei teaching his students how to use poison, explosives, breaking and entering, black magic etc.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 30, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Sami I have no problem saying all this in Anthony's face.
> 
> Since you are to lazy to actually google.
> Shoninki index
> ...



Checked out your Genbukan link, correct me if I am wrong but I thought the Genbukan was created by someone related to Hatsumi who broke away from the Bujinkan... it would be nice to have an organization translating that was not affiliated with the people who are feuding with Antony Cummins, that aside the actual translation seems the same as Antony's book other than he adds a little more depth of explanation. Just my opinion but whats on the Genbukan site reminds me of Sun Tzu's the art of war. Anyway I didn't notice any glaring differences so maybe the true problem is not the translations at all.


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## oaktree (Apr 30, 2017)

Well Sami I guess you will believe what you want I do encourage you to learn Kanji and get an actual text of these books and read what it actually is, but since you can't read  kanji I guess you will have to go with anthony's version though since he put his commentary in the text how much is translated and how much of it is what he thinks or is making up something to think about every time you read it.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Apr 30, 2017)

Learning fluent Japanese and learning to read kanji is on my to do list I have spent a little time and made a little progress toward that goal but I am a little busy with retiring from Military service, moving to a new location and working toward a Masters degree in Psychology, not to mention being a new father and training and teaching martial arts. I always look forward to all the new reading material that becomes available after I learn a new language. Right now I am putting the finishing touches on my Arabic and starting on learning Bahasa. Priorities are important... it has been a long time since I have had any involvement with Japanese Martial Arts, I did once live in a Dojo around 13 years ago where a certain man fluent in Japanese taught numerous Japanese Martial Arts including Jigen Ryu, though I think he was primarily an Aikido practitioner, while I dabbled in these arts while teaching there it was not very long before I went active duty in the US Army.


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## oaktree (May 1, 2017)

Speaking of Jigen ryu I have met the soke of tenshinsho jigen ryu he invited me to train with him very casual friendly guy.


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## Chris Parker (May 21, 2017)

@Sami Ibrahim 

I'm not going to go back and pull apart all your defences of Antony... suffice to say that, if you're basing your understanding on him and his work, then you'll find that you're going to be off base in quite a number of areas, at best. 

I will, however, invite you to read the comments posted in this thread (Ninjutsu contradictions) regarding him and his work, rather than simply copying it over again....


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## Sami Ibrahim (May 28, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> @Sami Ibrahim
> 
> I'm not going to go back and pull apart all your defences of Antony... suffice to say that, if you're basing your understanding on him and his work, then you'll find that you're going to be off base in quite a number of areas, at best.
> 
> I will, however, invite you to read the comments posted in this thread (Ninjutsu contradictions) regarding him and his work, rather than simply copying it over again....



Thanks, it really is not a matter of being "off base" in the sense of being wrong but being "off base" from the base of students that comprise the Bujinkan. We have a difference of opinion. I believe that Ninjutsu can be applied to spy craft today but in terms of being a historically legitimate centuries old martial tradition that is comprised of unique passed down basics for bone breaking and muscle and nerve attacks and past down weapons techniques that have been passed down generation to generation from the legendary Shinobi of old and are now being taught to paying hobbiests is something I have seen no convincing proof of.


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## Chris Parker (May 30, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Thanks, it really is not a matter of being "off base" in the sense of being wrong



Yes, it really is.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> but being "off base" from the base of students that comprise the Bujinkan.



Er... no.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> We have a difference of opinion.



Actually, no, not so much. We have differences of education.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> I believe that Ninjutsu can be applied to spy craft today but in terms of being a historically legitimate centuries old martial tradition that is comprised of unique passed down basics for bone breaking and muscle and nerve attacks and past down weapons techniques that have been passed down generation to generation from the legendary Shinobi of old and are now being taught to paying hobbiests is something I have seen no convincing proof of.



And here's the real problem.

There is no claim of that either. Antony couldn't follow this basic idea either... but let's try again.

Hatsumi learnt martial arts and ninjutsu (note the separation) from Takamatsu Toshitsugu. These traditions included a wide array of systems and methodologies, specifically:
 - Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu (a system of bujutsu said to have come from the Iga region, focused on a form of unarmed combat known as Kosshijutsu, which is NOT "muscle and nerve attacks").
- Koto Ryu Koppojutsu (a system of bujutsu said to have come from the Iga region, linked with Gyokko Ryu, focused on a form of unarmed combat known as Koppojutsu, which is NOT "bone breaking").
- Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu (a system of bujutsu focused on grappling and striking methods known as Dakentaijutsu, which is NOT simply "striking methods")
- Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu (a system of bujutsu focused on unarmed grappling methods)
- Kukishin Ryu Happo Biken (a system of bujutsu focused on a wide array of weaponry skills, such as polearms, staff weapons, sword, and a range of unarmed combat forms referred to as Dakentaijutsu)
- Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu (a system of bujutsu linked with Gyokko Ryu, ostensibly based on Koppojutsu, which again is NOT "bone breaking". Almost none of this system has been publicly shown.)
- Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu (a system of bujutsu-like methodologies and ninjutsu teachings. Note that the ninjutsu is actually separate from the Ninpo Taijutsu curriculum in this school, although it does inform the context of the taijutsu to a great degree.... we'll go more into this in a moment).
- Kumogakure Ryu Ninpo (a system based in ninjutsu teachings, thought to have no physical [bujutsu] methods involved).

In addition to these arts, Hatsumi learnt other arts prior to training with Takamatsu, such as Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu and Bokuden Ryu Koshi no Mawari from Ueno Takashi... as well as training in Shito Ryu karate and Judo when he was younger.

In the late 60's/early 70's, Hatsumi started his own official dojo, after spending much of the 60's running a training group for Takamatsu, naming it the Bujinkan Dojo (the training hall of the warrior god/spirit, apparently named in honour of Takamatsu himself). Thing is, of course, that's the name of the hall... not what is taught there. And with all those various arts being housed, a single name from a single art didn't cover them all... so a very Japanese approach was adopted. The "oldest" system (the one with the largest number of previous headmasters), which is afforded the highest amount of respect, was positioned as the "banner name" system... which, at 34 generations (according to the history provided by Takamatsu), was Togakure Ryu. As a result, the name of the school was Bujinkan Dojo Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu Ninjutsu, or (shorter) Bujinkan Dojo Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu... sometimes simply addressed as Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. 

This gave rise to a number of confusions, particularly with the early publishings all seeming to refer to Togakure Ryu as being where all the methods taught in the Bujinkan Dojo came from... whereas, as you can see above, it's but one of many... and, honestly, one of the smallest of the lot. But, if you grew up with the early sources, such as the very early Hatsumi/Hayes books, and the early public descriptions, then it was presented that it was all "ninjutsu"... except, of course, most of it was not.

So this idea of "these arts aren't the same as the Bansenshukai!!" is a bit, well, wrong. In fact, not so much wrong, as not even wrong... they were never claimed to be. However, the ninjutsu teachings found within Togakure Ryu do match it... pretty well perfectly, for the record.

Thing is, Antony has been told this. Repeatedly. By me, in fact. But he refuses to look past his own misunderstanding of how the naming convention works, of what is expected, of what is being claimed, and how much he'd gotten things wrong. One of the signs of a good researcher and academic is the ability to take on new information, and adjust understanding accordingly... Antony has failed in this for the entire time I've dealt with him. Which also highlights a big problem in him being the introduction for information.

The first information you encounter shapes your frame of reference... and the first information Antony came into contact with was basic, and he didn't understand what was actually behind it all. Similarly, if your first (primary) encounter is with his work, on the surface, it all looks fine... but, due to Antony's desperate lack of knowledge, experience, understanding, contextual awareness, and cultural sensitivity, anyone with actual knowledge and experience in this area picks up on the issues pretty well straight away. But more and more people are encountering Antony as a first-contact for these areas on knowledge... which means their entire frame of reference is skewed and screwed up from the get-go.... leading to comments such as yours above, which simply apes Antony's complaint that he has made for years... despite it being a non-event... he simply doesn't get that the Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu (as in, everything taught there)... in fact, the Bujinkan hasn't used the Togakure Ryu banner since the 80's.... but Antony still remains unable to grasp this simple concept.

So I will say once more... if you follow what he says, then yes, you will be off base in terms of being incorrect in many of your understandings and grasps of this area. Antony, simply put, is not a credible source.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jun 1, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Yes, it really is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank You so much for clarifying my misunderstanding, I have never before had it explained so clearly. I really do mean that and I hope you don't think me insincere for asking another question just so that in the future I don't go around spreading misinformation. Am I to understand from what your saying that Hatsumi has never claimed to teach combative movements both unarmed and with weapons that he claimed are Ninjutsu rather those are from various legit Bujutsu traditions and the Ninjutsu associated with three of his taught traditions is understood as a separate matter from the fighting movements? You see I had this silly impression that Hatsumi was saying he had ancient scrolls passed down to him from Takamatsu that contained actual ninjutsu fighting techniques that could be taught as responses to self-defense situations, actual passed down combative movements like you would see from a KeNpo lineage. I agreed with others that Ninjutsu was primarily the body of knowledge dealing with the trade craft of spies and that Shinobi would have received unarmed and weapons training from whatever conventional Bujutsu was available to them.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jun 1, 2017)

Or to put it another way, In the US ARMY a Soldier may specialize in Military Intelligence but his unarmed combat training and his weapons training is for the most part available to all, while it (training in unarmed and weapons combat) would be tailored to various degrees to better accomplish the kinds of things that need to be done in Military Intelligence, My gripe with the Bujinkan and to a lesser extent the Genbukan people I have talked with had this arrogant attitude that they were learning the only authentic Ninjutsu available when to my eyes all they were doing was various striking, kicking, joint-locking etc and other things not ninjutsu.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 3, 2017)

Hi Sami.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> Thank You so much for clarifying my misunderstanding, I have never before had it explained so clearly. I really do mean that and I hope you don't think me insincere for asking another question just so that in the future I don't go around spreading misinformation.



No problem.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> Am I to understand from what your saying that Hatsumi has never claimed to teach combative movements both unarmed and with weapons that he claimed are Ninjutsu rather those are from various legit Bujutsu traditions and the Ninjutsu associated with three of his taught traditions is understood as a separate matter from the fighting movements?



No, that's not what I said... but then again, it's not not what I said either... 

The thing with Hatsumi, and trying to take what he says as the pure, literal, unaltered truth is that it will lead you to having little idea of what is the actual reality of the situation. So, yes, Hatsumi has described the various unarmed and armed methods as being "ninjutsu"... but that was not literally meaning the historical traditions of shinobi from the 16th century... instead, it was a shorthand way of describing the methods taught in his dojo... which, due to the initial "banner name" of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, Hatsumi's position as a teacher of Ninjutsu (as a basis for his claim/fame), the simplest and most effective marketing label (giving a point of difference), and so on, was often referred to simply as "Ninjutsu".... regardless of the actual source of whatever he was teaching at that moment. By the same token, he has spoken literally about the specific ninjutsu teachings, stating that "no-one can claim to teach ninjutsu, as I have not yet taught it to anyone"... 

What all that means is that you have to look at the context of what he's talking about at the time to get a sense of what he is referring to (specific to the historical skills, or generic to the skills of his dojo).



Sami Ibrahim said:


> You see I had this silly impression that Hatsumi was saying he had ancient scrolls passed down to him from Takamatsu that contained actual ninjutsu fighting techniques that could be taught as responses to self-defense situations, actual passed down combative movements like you would see from a KeNpo lineage.



Well... Hatsumi has spoken many times (as have others) of his large collection of densho, both related to his traditions, and completely unrelated to them, but I don't remember him ever talking about specific "ninjutsu fighting techniques"... the closest I've come across is, again, the generic term being used to describe the skills of the Bujinkan dojo (but that's really only in the 80's, by and large... by the early 90's, the term used for the skills of the Bujinkan Dojo has been Budo Taijutsu...), or for the skills of Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu... which is not really the same as the taijutsu methods of the more "bujutsu" systems... so it may be an idea to look at exactly what these "ninjutsu combat techniques" are like.

In simple terms, Togakure Ryu is split into three primary sections.... Ninpo Taijutsu, Ninja Biken, and Ninjutsu. The Ninjutsu includes stealth and concealment, psychology, information gathering, escape, infiltration, weather prediction, use of natural elements, special tools, and more... the Ninja Biken is a series of sword methods geared around close-quarters sword work.... but here, we're going to look at the Ninpo Taijutsu.

The Ninpo Taijutsu of Togakure Ryu is designed with the expected context of being on an espionage (or similar) mission, and getting discovered somewhere you shouldn't be... with a few different areas based on the exact circumstances. The most well-known section is the Santo Tonko no Kata, a series of techniques which are all designed around escaping being arrested/caught by guards. These include methods of escaping from being captured (the opponent grabs your wrist or collar, and attempts to drag you away), or escaping from a guard with a weapon (either striking at you, or simply bringing the weapon out to get you to "go along with them"). There are no striking defences, as the entire context is being caught by guards. Next is the Shinobi Gaeshi Kata... which are a group of methods teaching evading an opponent in the first place. Finally, there is the Ukemi Gata, a series of techniques often taught with the Shuko (one of the three "secret" tools of Togakure Ryu), which deal with an armed opponent attacking. While this may be seen as being close to "self defence", the real idea is to press non-weapons into use as defensive tools... as, along with the other "secret tools" (sanpo hiden), the Shuko were, simply, not designed as weapons... in fact, they're rather poor in that regard. But Togakure Ryu is not a combative system, the same way that, say, Kukishin Ryu is... so to expect it to have the same idea of weapons/tools is to misunderstand the structure and context of the school entirely.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> I agreed with others that Ninjutsu was primarily the body of knowledge dealing with the trade craft of spies and that Shinobi would have received unarmed and weapons training from whatever conventional Bujutsu was available to them.



Also not necessarily true.... bear in mind that, historically, a "ninja" was anyone engaging in the act of information gathering.... which might be a "warrior"... or not. There is no rule that says that a spy is also a combatant....



Sami Ibrahim said:


> Or to put it another way, In the US ARMY a Soldier may specialize in Military Intelligence but his unarmed combat training and his weapons training is for the most part available to all, while it (training in unarmed and weapons combat) would be tailored to various degrees to better accomplish the kinds of things that need to be done in Military Intelligence,



Yeah, look, trying to equate Japanese feudal military structure and training methods with modern militaries will never give you an accurate picture... so, no, it's not really like that at all.



Sami Ibrahim said:


> My gripe with the Bujinkan and to a lesser extent the Genbukan people I have talked with had this arrogant attitude that they were learning the only authentic Ninjutsu available when to my eyes all they were doing was various striking, kicking, joint-locking etc and other things not ninjutsu.



Thing is, you were only seeing one facet of the training and teachings available there... and were focusing on something that wasn't what you were discussing. Antony has made the same mistake for years... 

The attitude of the Bujinkan (well, all Takamatsuden groups) is that they are the only historically authentic source for Ninjutsu systems... other classical systems contain some ninjutsu teachings, but are not ninjutsu schools the way that something like Togakure Ryu is. Now, of course, there are some major questions as to that authenticity itself... but this is what they're meaning. And watching a class where you're seeing combative methods from Takagi Yoshin Ryu, or Gyokko Ryu, and then thinking that that's claimed to be historical ninjutsu teachings, is to not understand what you're seeing... and to misunderstand the claims.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Jun 3, 2017)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Sami.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is exactly what happened, thank you for clarifying everything for me, in the future I too will explain it in this manner. Peace.


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