# Bassai Dai, Pal Sek appreciation thread



## IcemanSK (Feb 8, 2009)

After learning this form a few years back, I've been pleased that many different styles do a version of it. I'm fascinated by the differences & similiarities in the techniques, pace, & emphasis in the form. Yet, it spans many styles of karate, TSD, & even TKD. Some schools (often TKD Chung Do Kwan) say that it is to be done in a certain time limit. Here's some of the versions I've found on youtube. I'm sorry I don't have my org's version, but I only have it on a copywritten dvd. I by no means want to bash any one of these videos for "not doing it correctly". On the contrary, I think it's great that there are technique differences that show off that particular style.

http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php/profile.php?id=1495355347&ref=profile Kyokushin





 TKD Chung Do Kwan 





 Shotokan





 Shito Ryu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_qw4K2adZc&feature=PlayList&p=BE60B578B826BA5A&playnext=1&index=11 Tang Soo Do 

I'm sure there are many others & many variations on this form. I just thought these were a great sample of the fact that, even though it's done differently in different styles (& the boon hae/bunkai is different) it goes to show the richness of the form.


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## dancingalone (Feb 9, 2009)

Just for discussion's sake:  what qualities are you trying to practice or showcase within this form?


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## IcemanSK (Feb 9, 2009)

The commom thread is deep stances, & outside & inside middle blocks. I noted that some see the technique before the side kick as a strike & others as block. The two Korean styles have a crescent kick in the form, while the Japanese styles have it as a stomp.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 9, 2009)

Passai is one of those kata that have so many variations, its hard to find the common thread between them, other then the name.  The thing about Passai to remember is that its applications are manifold.  You can practice this one kata and probably have enough applications defend yourself to the end of your days.  

Our version of Passai has 56 moves, depending on how you count.  For each move, there are several applications.  For each application, there are several variations.  As you can see, it all adds up to a huge amount of techniques.

Some common threads in Passai are its quick direction changes coupled with blocking and striking.  Also prevalent are the grabbing and throwing techniques.  You should know what the shuto-uke is used for because it often is the set-up for many things.  I like this kata because of its diversity.  It really does cover an amazing depth of material.


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## dancingalone (Feb 9, 2009)

My sensei taught me that this form should always be practiced with explosion of _purpose_ in mind.  Each subset of movement represents an immediate reversal in advantage, i.e. you are surprised by an attack, but your swift counterattack is enough to reverse the situation such that you are now the aggressor.


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## Montecarlodrag (Feb 15, 2009)

Mine is very very similar to the TSD video, however we do it much faster.

I was taught this hyung must be performed with lightning speed, since it represents the Cobra. The key factor are speed and some pauses to make it look good.

We do 2 Bassai hyungs, I've never seen another TSD school handle 2 Bassai. We call them "Bassai" or "Bassai Dai" for the one from the video. The other is called "Bassai So" or "Passai So". It is exactly like this one (with minor differences):




 
I find it somehow related to this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750_5WKCMKM&feature=related


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2009)

Montecarlodrag said:


> I find it somehow related to this one:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=750_5WKCMKM&feature=related


 
Our Bassai Sho is that one with only a few changes.

Here is a great video on Bassai Dai Bunkai.  I think it does a great job on showing what could be possible.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 16, 2009)

Montecarlodrag said:


> Mine is very very similar to the TSD video, however we do it much faster.
> 
> *I was taught this hyung must be performed with lightning speed, since it represents the Cobra. The key factor are speed and some pauses to make it look good.*
> 
> ...


 

In the book "Korean Karate" GM Son, Duk Sung says that Bassai Dai (Pal Sek) is to be done in 45 seconds or less. I've heard of only a few other groups that have it as a timed hyung. Perhaps your instructor got the "speed" idea from the a similar source as GM Son.


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## Montecarlodrag (Feb 24, 2009)

IcemanSK said:


> In the book "Korean Karate" GM Son, Duk Sung says that Bassai Dai (Pal Sek) is to be done in 45 seconds or less. I've heard of only a few other groups that have it as a timed hyung. Perhaps your instructor got the "speed" idea from the a similar source as GM Son.


 
No, I didn't mean fast as in finishing the whole hyung in 45 seconds.

For Us, there is a difference between speed (90 mph punches) and quickness (finishing a hyung in 45 secs).

So, for this hyung, we encourage speed, but the whole hyung is finished in the standard amount of time for a hyung as long as this. We do pauses and transitions, but every kick and punch or block is fast.


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## Gi1 (Mar 11, 2009)

We do it like the TSD version attached but apply "hip twist" to add power to techniques. Also we do it a little faster.


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## fuzbuckle (Mar 11, 2009)

My school has Passai So and Passai Dae as part of it curriculum.  Although we call them Pal Che So and Pal Che Dae.  For reference, I am a member of the International Tang Soo Do Federation under the guidance of Master C. S. Kim.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Mar 12, 2009)

@fuzbuckle: All right! Finally a fellow ITF member and C.S. Kim student  

Where do you train?


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## IcemanSK (Mar 14, 2009)

My friend who runs a TSD school & I shared "our" versions of Bassai Dai the other night & had a lot of fun exploring the uniqueness of each form.


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## fuzbuckle (Mar 15, 2009)

I train at the green tree school.  Just took the test for Cho Dan Bo.


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## terryl965 (Mar 15, 2009)

Bassai Dai has so many variation which I believe is one of the greatest thing for any form, it show the verstatikity of said form.


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## thesandman (Mar 16, 2009)

And my school does this yet another way.  Forms to me are so individualized by school/system/style that I am always amazed by people who seem to think their way is the "true" way.  The sheer variety for Bassai is just proof of my point.  It's always interesting to see how others do it, as an academic interest, but ultimately you do it the way it's taught to you.


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## Montecarlodrag (Mar 18, 2009)

thesandman said:


> And my school does this yet another way.  Forms to me are so individualized by school/system/style that I am always amazed by people who seem to think their way is the "true" way.  The sheer variety for Bassai is just proof of my point.  It's always interesting to see how others do it, as an academic interest, but ultimately you do it the way it's taught to you.



I had some problems in the past with that.

In several tournaments, when I performed my hyung the way I was taught, some TSD judges from other systems gave me a poor score, just for being different.

When I serve as a tournaments judge I qualify the techniques and speed, attitude and spirit, postures, etc. I dont care if they do the hyung different as I do it, or if they are from another system.

We have to be mature enough to accept our way may not be the best way to do things.

Regards.


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## astrobiologist (Mar 24, 2009)

Montecarlodrag said:


> I had some problems in the past with that.
> 
> In several tournaments, when I performed my hyung the way I was taught, some TSD judges from other systems gave me a poor score, just for being different.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.  Too many practitioners are told or allow themselves to think that the specific way they perform the techniques of a form are the absolute right way.  Too often, it is this type of thought that holds the student back from gaining deeper insight into the applications of the techniques.


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