# In-Close Fighting



## MJS (Jan 5, 2010)

Came across this clip on youtube and thought it would make some interesting discussion.

[yt]UOyXKLbHCbQ&feature=sub[/yt]

Now, even though this is a Bujinkan school, it seemed to me that there was a hint of WC in there, but in any case, what I wanted to talk about, was being able to defend yourself, with your opponent attacking from a close range. Many demos that we see, show the attacker at a further distance. 

Many techs. that we see probably won't be as 'pretty' as the textbook techs. due to the fact that the in-close attacks will be those 'Oh ****' moments, where we just have to react.

On a side note, maybe its just me, but it seemed that the guy who was punching, was punching off to the side, rather than at the defender. This always has been and always will be, one of my biggest martial art pet peeves. Doing that, IMO, is doing more harm than good.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 5, 2010)

I agree that it is important to practice being attacked from many different distances. A fight can start when you're inches away from someone or when they are running at you from accross the street. So experimentation I think helps a lot, as long as the attacker is behaving realistically.

I agree that punching off to the side is irritating. That throws everyone off when a real punch comes at a person. In our school most new people do this probably because they feel it would be somehow disrespectful to hit an instructor or perhaps they are timid.

It did look a little like WC didn't it? Perhaps the instructor had studied that as well.


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## seasoned (Jan 5, 2010)

I like the clip because it shows even at close range, the instinct to grab was, from training, substituted by strikes. From there it lead into the locks and takedowns. Good find.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 5, 2010)

Nice find MJS!

Pet peeve of mine is practitioner's punching off to the side as well. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




(it does not do any good for either practitioner)

Now that being said I like the clip and the idea of being in close and defending from that close in attack.  Good stuff!  I do not know this instructors back ground but I would venture to say that this is not Wing Chun but simply his movement via Budo Taijutsu. (just a guess)


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## punisher73 (Jan 5, 2010)

I think that if you are doing something that works, then it will look like other things that work as well.  It might have a different flavor to it, but it's all chili (sorry live in Michigan and it's chili eating season).

Taijutsu (as I understand it) depends on body movement, tai sabaki, to evade and diffuse the force of an attack.  Wing Chun is predicated on small spaces in which you don't have tons of room to move around, so it learns to diffuse the attack and evade with as little body movement and arm movement as possible.  When you condense the longer range tai sabaki into close quarters, it seems to reason that it would look similiar to a style that specializes in that type of close quarter fighting (Wing Chun).


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## K831 (Jan 5, 2010)

If you aren't interested in watching the whole video skip to about 2:48

The multiple attacker practice is done in a hallway, with part of it ending up on the stairs.

I like what they did, and it got me reflecting on a few things;

1.) Just what MJS brought up... do you/your art etc consider situations where your movement/angles are restricted by space.

2.) Do you/your training/art etc take into account uneven surfaces as extreme as fighting on stairs? How do you adjust your footwork, can you still generate sufficient power?

3.) Wow, that guy moves that short sword pretty well in such a small area and against multiple attackers. 

4.) Both video's illustrate the problems you face when fighting at extreme close range, however, they also hint at the benefits that can come from confined spaces, namely (as seen in the hallway) you can take multiple attackers on one at a time and get them stumbling over each other if you make them line up in a hallway. Similar to the "line of sight" drill we do in our Kenpo school. Interesting.


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## geezer (Jan 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> Now, even though this is a Bujinkan school, it seemed to me that there was a hint of WC in there.



More than a "hint" of WC. From what little I've seen of Bujinkan, I think the resemblance here is more than a matter of "parallel evolution" as two different systems adapt to similar circumstances. I'd be willing to bet serious money that this guy has been checking out that other famous Turk, WT legend Emin Boztepe.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

It's a good video to show those who think using their feet to do all their defending are mistaken (and I'm a very long term TKD man.)

Some of his techniques are like Krav Maga, others JKD, and the video has many good ideas.

But, I want you guys to think about this.

When someone throws a punch, they ARE GOING TO THROW IT HARD. Your block cannot be a simple outside block. Since there are no weight divisions in a street fight (in or out of an elevator) then expect the attackers to punch hard. Hard crosses, hard hooks, hard jabs, hard uppercuts, etc...

Your block is going to have to nullify an awful amount of force, and thus it better be a good one.

The 'one timing' punch-n-block he uses on the video. It needs to be much harder and solid.

And his punches should extend to the limit of the arm (or you get in the habit of holding back.)

Also his attackers fought his way. No lunging for a takedown, no raising the other had to shield their face while punching, no faking..

 I didnt see many knees used either.

And the attacker was smaller than he was! In KM classes I get kicked, kneed, and punched around by lots bigger men and let me tell you there is a difference!!

Anyway, keep that in mind when you see videos and the demos.

Deaf


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jan 7, 2010)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I agree that it is important to practice being attacked from many different distances. A fight can start when you're inches away from someone or when they are running at you from accross the street. So experimentation I think helps a lot, as long as the attacker is behaving realistically.
> 
> I agree that punching off to the side is irritating. That throws everyone off when a real punch comes at a person. In our school most new people do this probably because they feel it would be somehow disrespectful to hit an instructor or perhaps they are timid.
> 
> It did look a little like WC didn't it? Perhaps the instructor had studied that as well.


 
 I constantly drill our Uke's to throw the punch right, just at graduated speeds and power levels. If Nage just stands there I expect Uke to put the punch on target.

 When I see guys not doind this I sometimes make them satnd at arms length and slow motion punch each other in the face for a minute. Not hard enough to damge or bruise, but to contact and penitrate a bit)

 I reminde them that you cheat your partner by giving him BS attack angles and could be setting up for a false sense of his ability to deal with strikes that could get him killed.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 7, 2010)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> I constantly drill our Uke's to throw the punch right, just at graduated speeds and power levels. If Nage just stands there I expect Uke to put the punch on target.
> 
> When I see guys not doind this I sometimes make them satnd at arms length and slow motion punch each other in the face for a minute. Not hard enough to damge or bruise, but to contact and penitrate a bit)
> 
> I reminde them that you cheat your partner by giving him BS attack angles and could be setting up for a false sense of his ability to deal with strikes that could get him killed.


 
I'm with ya buddy. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to stop the whole class and remind them that they need to _aim_ their punches at each other. I say to them, 

"When you are the attacker you are practicing attacks! What if you had to punch this guy out to get to your family behind him? Hit like you wuld in real life or else all we are doing is playing."

Training realistically is all about trying to simulate what a real fight would look like to the best of our abilities and sometimes people forget that doing a technique half-assed against an overly-cooperative uke does not mean it will work against a real violent attacker.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 7, 2010)

Also I wanted to address what Deaf Smith said so I'll break down my thoughts cuz I thought he brought up some interesting points.



Deaf Smith said:


> It's a good video to show those who think using their feet to do all their defending are mistaken (and I'm a very long term TKD man.)
> 
> Some of his techniques are like Krav Maga, others JKD, and the video has many good ideas.


 
Seeing simularities between martial arts is inevitible (sp? whatever). Any system that teaches how to hurt the human body will come up with similar principles because if it works, then it works and people will discover it and use it. For example, many martial arts use arm bars where the martial arts differ isn't necessarily in the technique itself, but in the tactics used to get to the technique or why that particular technique would be used at that time when another could be used as well.




Deaf Smith said:


> But, I want you guys to think about this.





Deaf Smith said:


> When someone throws a punch, they ARE GOING TO THROW IT HARD. Your block cannot be a simple outside block. Since there are no weight divisions in a street fight (in or out of an elevator) then expect the attackers to punch hard. Hard crosses, hard hooks, hard jabs, hard uppercuts, etc...
> 
> Your block is going to have to nullify an awful amount of force, and thus it better be a good one.
> 
> ...




I agree that would make the punching more effective, but perhaps they were going for what a random street thug might throw, after all I've seen some pretty weak punches throw wildly in real life confrontations. And perhaps the insturctor's plan was not to block but redirect, because(correct me if I'm wrong) I do not think the bujinkan teaches to absorb impact through blocking.

Plus throwing HARD punches means someone could get injured so they may be going lighter for that purpose.




Deaf Smith said:


> Also his attackers fought his way. No lunging for a takedown, no raising the other had to shield their face while punching, no faking..





Deaf Smith said:


> I didn&#8217;t see many knees used either.




I don't really know what you mean by "fighting his way", an attack is an attack and a techinuqe is usually taught of something generic and common, which this attack looks like it could be something one sees.
In a closed in area, no one will lunge for a takedown, there is no room. Plaus the attacker may not be very skilled so shielding the face and faking would not be applicable. Knees are effective but may not be necessary.




Deaf Smith said:


> And the attacker was smaller than he was! In KM classes I get kicked, kneed, and punched around by lots bigger men and let me tell you there is a difference!!


 
Maybe the instructor is the biggest guy in the room. I wish I had larger training partners sometimes, but most of the time I'm the biggest guy in the class and little guys do attack people so it's not like this would never happen. I've been hit harder by little guys with better training than by big guys with less training, butI do seeyour point and do agree that techniques need to be practiced on different body sizes. But a good technique will work on any one if the person is skilled enough to know how to do it properly.


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## Draven (Jan 7, 2010)

From my experiences nothing is pretty in a real fight & even the close range techniques he's deomstrating all seem to practiced at basic punching range. Which begs the question what qualifies for in-fighting range here?

As far as that in-fighting range; that what I call the Oh ***** range because its were the other 3 ranges collide. Weapons, Striking, & Grappling all collapse at the in-fighting range. When it gets to that point I think the goal is do as much damage as possible and adjust range to more advantagious position.


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## frank raud (Jan 13, 2010)

Draven said:


> From my experiences nothing is pretty in a real fight & even the close range techniques he's deomstrating all seem to practiced at basic punching range. Which begs the question what qualifies for in-fighting range here?
> 
> As far as that in-fighting range; that what I call the Oh ***** range because its were the other 3 ranges collide. Weapons, Striking, & Grappling all collapse at the in-fighting range. When it gets to that point I think the goal is do as much damage as possible and adjust range to more advantagious position.


 
How do you grapple outside of the in-fighting range? Certain weapons are more appropriate for close range fighting than fighting at a distance, the knives that most people carry these days is an example. Most striking arts have multiple techniques for working up close and personal.

Nothing wrong with wanting to make space, but there are plenty of options at close range.


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## teekin (Jan 13, 2010)

frank raud said:


> *How do you grapple outside of the in-fighting range?* Certain weapons are more appropriate for close range fighting than fighting at a distance, the knives that most people carry these days is an example. Most striking arts have multiple techniques for working up close and personal.
> 
> Nothing wrong with wanting to make space, but there are plenty of options at close range.


 
Stay away from thier core, keep thier center of gravity far away enough from yours so that you can recover to standing/striking position at will. Judo grip fighting is grappeling outside of infighting range as well as just Judo period. I got very good at this as I am Allways Allways smaller than anyone I randori or spar with. Most boys by the time they are 12 years old outweigh me and are an 1" or 6" taller. 
 But I can hold my own grappling, not so good at striking . . . . . .yet.  (Karate is helping in some very unexpected ways.  Like a skeleton key, it seems to be opening many doors. )

MJS, thanks nice find.


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## frank raud (Jan 13, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Stay away from thier core, keep thier center of gravity far away enough from yours so that you can recover to standing/striking position at will. Judo grip fighting is grappeling outside of infighting range as well as just Judo period. I got very good at this as I am Allways Allways smaller than anyone I randori or spar with. Most boys by the time they are 12 years old outweigh me and are an 1" or 6" taller.
> But I can hold my own grappling, not so good at striking . . . . . .yet. (Karate is helping in some very unexpected ways. Like a skeleton key, it seems to be opening many doors. )
> 
> MJS, thanks nice find.


 

I would consider judo to be in-fighting, anything inside full extended arms reach is in-fighting. we may be coming at this with different definition of in-fighting.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I agree that would make the punching more effective, but perhaps they were going for what a random street thug might throw, after all I've seen some pretty weak punches throw wildly in real life confrontations. And perhaps the insturctor's plan was not to block but redirect, because(correct me if I'm wrong) I do not think the bujinkan teaches to absorb impact through blocking.


 
Himura,

The point is the technique must be good enough to stop a hard punch (or deflect it.) Never ever 'assume' the other guy will throw weak punches or kicks unless you know just who the attacker is. I shock people quite often in TKD class when I have them in one step sparring I'll throw a hook instead of a punch (and tell them that beforehand) and what happens, their block has no power to stop it. All because they practice the technique without any power or resistance.

I see the same thing in the self defense part of class. I'll do a real bear hug and when they try to chicken wing out of it, they can't.



Himura Kenshin said:


> Plus throwing HARD punches means someone could get injured so they may be going lighter for that purpose.


 
Wear shin and forearm guards. And if the other guy is inexperienced have them wear a face helmet that guards the face (I have one myself.) Yes stop the punches short, but once they get the idea of blocking a punch pick up the speed and power while keeping control.




Himura Kenshin said:


> I don't really know what you mean by "fighting his way", an attack is an attack and a techinuqe is usually taught of something generic and common, which this attack looks like it could be something one sees.
> In a closed in area, no one will lunge for a takedown, there is no room. Plaus the attacker may not be very skilled so shielding the face and faking would not be applicable. Knees are effective but may not be necessary.


 
By that I mean just strait punches. They may throw hooks, overheads, shovels, or haymakers. Never know. Might very well throw a sucker punch to start off the game. You need to teach them all about sucker punches!! And again, don't assume the other guy is ignorant of how to fight.

Deaf


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2010)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I agree that it is important to practice being attacked from many different distances. A fight can start when you're inches away from someone or when they are running at you from accross the street. So experimentation I think helps a lot, as long as the attacker is behaving realistically.


 
IMO, I think that its good to test ourselves, putting us in situations/scenarios, in which we're most likely to end up in, meaning, doing training against attacks that are similar to this.  Overall, I think the clip was pretty good, although I'd have liked to have seen a bit more movement on the part of the attacker.


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nice find MJS!


 
Glad you liked it.   I've seen quite a few of their clips on youtube and really enjoy them.  



> Pet peeve of mine is practitioner's punching off to the side as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Agreed. 



> Now that being said I like the clip and the idea of being in close and defending from that close in attack. Good stuff! I do not know this instructors back ground but I would venture to say that this is not Wing Chun but simply his movement via Budo Taijutsu. (just a guess)


 
I dont think the entire defense was WC, but instead just a part.  But then again, whatever works I suppose.   You're more familiar with the Bujinkan than I, so I'll trust your judgement on that.


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## MJS (Jan 14, 2010)

Draven said:


> From my experiences nothing is pretty in a real fight & even the close range techniques he's deomstrating all seem to practiced at basic punching range. Which begs the question what qualifies for in-fighting range here?


 
I breakdown the ranges into out of reach, kicking range, punching range, clinch/grappling range.  In-fighting, IMO, would be defined as close range punching to the clinch/grapple.



> As far as that in-fighting range; that what I call the Oh ***** range because its were the other 3 ranges collide. Weapons, Striking, & Grappling all collapse at the in-fighting range. When it gets to that point I think the goal is do as much damage as possible and adjust range to more advantagious position.


 
Am I reading this right....you're saying that when you're in close, that the weapons, striking and grappling are not effective?  If thats what you're saying, I disagree.  Again, maybe its the way I'm reading it, but for me, thats not a range that hinders me at all.  Kenpo is pretty effective in close, as well as the FMAs.  Additionally, weapons, either a stick or blade, can be used very effectively in close.


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## teekin (Jan 14, 2010)

frank raud said:


> I would consider judo to be in-fighting, anything inside full extended arms reach is in-fighting. *we may be coming at this with different definition of in-fighting*.


 
I think you are right. When I think of in fighting I think of inside a clinch, no room to work, just enough room to set up sweeps or drop seio-nagi or dirty boxing. Clinch work. 
lori


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## frank raud (Jan 15, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> I think you are right. When I think of in fighting I think of inside a clinch, no room to work, just enough room to set up sweeps or drop seio-nagi or dirty boxing. Clinch work.
> lori


 
No problem. I still am curious about Draven's comment that striking, weapons and grappling fall apart at close in range. I would like to see his response.


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## MJS (Jan 15, 2010)

frank raud said:


> No problem. I still am curious about Draven's comment that striking, weapons and grappling fall apart at close in range. I would like to see his response.


 
Ditto, I'm curious about that as well.  There's alot that can be done in those ranges.


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## Draven (Jan 15, 2010)

frank raud said:


> How do you grapple outside of the in-fighting range? Certain weapons are more appropriate for close range fighting than fighting at a distance, the knives that most people carry these days is an example. Most striking arts have multiple techniques for working up close and personal.
> 
> Nothing wrong with wanting to make space, but there are plenty of options at close range.


 
Well I teach three ranges & anything can be applied at any range, its simply a matter the most common range in which fighting techniques occur. This starts at weapons range; which is outside your normal reach, striking range; which is punching/kicking range, in-fighting range; which is were strikes like knees and elbows, throws, takedowns and grappling are all applicatible & ends at grappling range; which is body to body contact where grappling and wrestling are most common. 

I never said they fail apart I said they collapse; as in they all overlap & at that range. At the In-fighting range you have more options but so does the other guy thus it collapses or implodes at that range.


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## Kittan Bachika (Jan 15, 2010)

From what I have seen of real tajitsu, this group is actually taking what they learn and applying it.  Contact is a always a good thing. 

I have seen some schools who train to a specific style and then when they spar it gets reduced to kick boxing. Nothing wrong with kick boxing, but if you are going to fight like a kick boxer you might as well learn kick boxing.


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## teekin (Jan 16, 2010)

Draven said:


> Well I teach three ranges & *anything can be applied at any range,* its simply a matter the most common range in which fighting techniques occur. This starts at weapons range; which is outside your normal reach, striking range; which is punching/kicking range, in-fighting range; which is were strikes like knees and elbows, throws, takedowns and grappling are all applicatible & ends at grappling range; which is body to body contact where grappling and wrestling are most common.
> 
> I never said they fail apart I said they collapse; as in they all overlap & at that range.* At the In-fighting range you have more options but so does the other guy thus it collapses or implodes at that range*.


 
I must dissagree about the first part. If you are in tight enough to set up a throw there is no way I know of for the other guy to throw an effective elbow. _His  humerous is longer than my rib cage. Physics forbids contact_. How can you rewrite basic laws of phyics? To nullify a boxers power you either get inside the arc of power or stay outside range. That is why finding the other guys range and rythme is so crucial, yes?

I agree with the other part about knife and stick. Getting in tight with a weapon is a whole nother ball game. A stick can break small joints in tight and a knife in tight is brutal dangerous. 

The idea that what works at middle range _collapes in on in itself/ implodes_ at clinch range is a nice one. The first thing you must to is make room to work.  If you can show otherwise Please do. I am new to MA and would love to see Vids. The more I learn the better. Lets face it _what I do know_ is a drop in the ocean compares to what _I don't know_. 

humbley
lori


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## jks9199 (Jan 16, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> I must dissagree about the first part. If you are in tight enough to set up a throw there is no way I know of for the other guy to throw an effective elbow. _His  humerous is longer than my rib cage. Physics forbids contact_. How can you rewrite basic laws of phyics? To nullify a boxers power you either get inside the arc of power or stay outside range. That is why finding the other guys range and rythme is so crucial, yes?
> 
> I agree with the other part about knife and stick. Getting in tight with a weapon is a whole nother ball game. A stick can break small joints in tight and a knife in tight is brutal dangerous.
> 
> ...


There are different types of elbows; not all are the "swinging" type that it seems you may be thinking of.  These are indeed hard to deliver once you're inside the length of the upper arm -- but thrusting elbows, elbow spikes, and others can often be done even literally face-to-face with someone.  When you power the technique with the body (a principle found in many arts, though very often not used well), you can often deliver power from a number of natural weapons at surprisingly short ranges.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2010)

Draven said:


> Well I teach three ranges & anything can be applied at any range, its simply a matter the most common range in which fighting techniques occur. This starts at weapons range; which is outside your normal reach, striking range; which is punching/kicking range, in-fighting range; which is were strikes like knees and elbows, throws, takedowns and grappling are all applicatible & ends at grappling range; which is body to body contact where grappling and wrestling are most common.
> 
> I never said they fail apart I said they collapse; as in they all overlap & at that range. At the In-fighting range you have more options but so does the other guy thus it collapses or implodes at that range.


 
Ahh..ok, thanks for the clarification.  I was a bit confused with your choice of wording.


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## frank raud (Jan 17, 2010)

Draven said:


> Well I teach three ranges & anything can be applied at any range, its simply a matter the most common range in which fighting techniques occur. This starts at weapons range; which is outside your normal reach, striking range; which is punching/kicking range, in-fighting range; which is were strikes like knees and elbows, throws, takedowns and grappling are all applicatible & ends at grappling range; which is body to body contact where grappling and wrestling are most common.
> 
> I never said they fail apart I said they collapse; as in they all overlap & at that range. At the In-fighting range you have more options but so does the other guy thus it collapses or implodes at that range.


 
Maybe it's just me, but I count four ranges.

Definition of collapse:
break down, literally or metaphorically; "The wall collapsed"; "The business collapsed"; "The dam broke"; "The roof collapsed"; "The wall gave in"; "The roof finally gave under the weight of the ice" 
break down: collapse due to fatigue, an illness, or a sudden attack 
fold or close up; "fold up your umbrella"; "collapse the music stand" 
crumble: fall apart; "the building crumbled after the explosion"; "Negotiations broke down" 
an abrupt failure of function or complete physical exhaustion; "the commander's prostration demoralized his men" 
cause to burst; "The ice broke the pipe" 
a natural event caused by something suddenly falling down or caving in; "the roof is in danger of collapse"; "the collapse of the old star under its own gravity" 
crack up: suffer a nervous breakdown 
flop: the act of throwing yourself down; "he landed on the bed with a great flop" 
lose significance, effectiveness, or value; "The school system is collapsing"; "The stock market collapsed" 
crash: a sudden large decline of business or the prices of stocks (especially one that causes additional failures)


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## edgedweapons (Jan 18, 2010)

I see the little hint of Wing Chun. practicing in this range should be primary since most fights start and end there.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 20, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Himura,
> 
> 1.The point is the technique must be good enough to stop a hard punch (or deflect it.) Never ever 'assume' the other guy will throw weak punches or kicks unless you know just who the attacker is. I shock people quite often in TKD class when I have them in one step sparring I'll throw a hook instead of a punch (and tell them that beforehand) and what happens, their block has no power to stop it. All because they practice the technique without any power or resistance.
> 
> ...


 

1. I understand what you mean, but but if someone is too uncooperative it could lead to injury for training partners, but yes, realism is needed.

2. I'm not a big fan of pads unless you have an existing injury, plus i never recommend stopping punches short. This just seems to be a differences in our training approaches.

3. I'd never assume someone doesn't know how to fight. A person can get beaten by anyone under the right conditions, it is good to show how to apply techniques against different attacks so here I would agree.


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