# Reperations



## Mon Mon (May 29, 2003)

To pay Reperations for Slavery.  



After Reading some articles i have come to the conclusion that it is not fair.


----------



## KennethKu (May 29, 2003)

Pay to whom? 
Why should I?


----------



## Kirk (May 29, 2003)

I didn't do it .. and I don't know of anyone that has been a slave.
Gathered to which ... how many people in this country even have
ancestry that were slave owners.  How is ancestry to slavery 
going to be proven?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Based on my familys history, no one in my tree ever owned a slave.  Therefore it is not right to take money from us to do so.  In addition, Slavery ended over 100 years ago...surely in that 100 years those former slaves and their decendants had ample opportunity to improve their lot in life.  

After all, its not like they had their land stolen, were forced to march cross country at gun point and then relocated to the most useless tracts of land available.

:asian:


----------



## Seig (May 29, 2003)

Ihave had this discussion on other boards in the past.  It can be a very heated issue.  As a full blooded jew, and until about 15 years ago, we were, on US forms considered a seperate race, I find the idea that African American community can not only suggest a thing, but to have people take it seriously absolutely appaling.  Fact, Africans sold Africans into slavery.  Fact, the jews were slaves a thousand years before the "Black" africans.  Fact. the African American population did not have genocide attempted on them less than 50 years ago.  I keep running into affirmative action, it has kept me out of several well paying jobs, that I was MORE qualified for.  I think the whole situation is absolutely disgusting.  The only way to reach true equality, is to drop the race issues.


----------



## rmcrobertson (May 29, 2003)

So was it OK to require various German/Swiss companies to pay WWII reparations?

The argument, there, was that their subsequent wealth and power had been built on war crimes, including slavery. Therefore, it was right that they should lose part of what they subsequently had...

The idea that "they're," getting the job I deserve is a common one. It's just not mostly true...I'd recommend looking up US Dept. of Labor statistics, which I suspect will show that by and large, us white guys are still getting the biggest chunk of the pie by far...

Course, no WASP ever got a job, or  promotion, just because of their WASPiness...well, Dan Quayle, but he's the only one. Ever. 

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## KenpoDragon (May 29, 2003)

Seig has made some very valid points,

1. I never owned a slave.
2. My family never owned a slave.
3. There haven't been "slaves" for quite some time now.
4. Affirmative action is B.S, a job should go to the "most" qualified applicant.
5. All races have had to suffer at one time or another. Just for the record I am part Japanese and my Grandparents were put in "camps/ prisons" just for being Japanese, not less than 100 years ago, you don't see me asking for no free friggin check do you?

I understand the reperations argument, I just don't see why "everyone" should be held accountable for the actions of certain people.

:asian:


----------



## Seig (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *So was it OK to require various German/Swiss companies to pay WWII reparations?
> 
> The argument, there, was that their subsequent wealth and power had been built on war crimes, including slavery. Therefore, it was right that they should lose part of what they subsequently had...*


But how much did they actually repay?  Built on your logic, it would be fair to say that only southern states would have to pay as they fought a war in which ONE of the issues was slavery.  No, I do not agree with it.



> *The idea that "they're," getting the job I deserve is a common one. It's just not mostly true...I'd recommend looking up US Dept. of Labor statistics, which I suspect will show that by and large, us white guys are still getting the biggest chunk of the pie by far...
> 
> Course, no WASP ever got a job, or  promotion, just because of their WASPiness...well, Dan Quayle, but he's the only one. Ever.
> 
> ...


There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics.  I can site three examples n the last two years where I have not gotten a job because I am a white male.  I am not whininig, I am stating a fact.  And although I was told the reason I did not get the job was that I was a white male, they would not, unfortunately for me, put that in writing.  I had a job offer retracted form the discovery channel, also raytheon, and one more I am still waiting on because the people hiring were told to hire African Americans and women, even if there were more qualified whit males.  I have been waiting over a year for a backround investigation to be STARTED because the A-As and women were given precedent, even though NOT one of them scored higher on the written test or the oral boards.  The three ofus that scored highest were all white males, and alll three of us are still waiting.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

I believe I am a WASP.  (Dunno....never checked my but for a stinger..) 

as a 'white male' I am least likely to get government aid for my business, medicaide or medicare, collage assistance, food stamps, HEAP, or many other aid packages.

I pay some of the highest car insurance rates due only to gender and 'race'.

IF there was to be reparations paid to those of African decent who were in bondage in the US, they should have been handled before 1900.  After 100+ years, all those who were held in bondage and those who held them are long since dust.

The time to have paid for those victimized by the Nazi regime was in the late 1940-s, early 1950s.  50 years later, it is too late.

The same is true for other groups. 


While I do not deny something should have been done, tell me, in all honesty, why should someones great grandson, who has been breathing the air of freedom and facing a wealth of opportunities, get what basically amounts to a free check?  Because of some pigment in their skin?  Please.  Its not our fault that they have wasted their time and lives and remained in crap situations.  Others in worse straights have pulled themselves up by their own courage and strengths.  

I count amongst my many friends and associates members of all 'races' and creeds.  I don't seperate based on such things.  I do seperate based on what one does with their gifts.  I have 'black' friends...but no '******s'. I have 'white friends' but no honkeys.  I have 'yellow', 'brown' and 'red' friends, but no 'chinks', 'spooks' or 'indians'.  They are just people of many pigments.  All of whom seek to achieve all they can, and not sit back n wait for a free check.

I'm sure someone will call or think me a racist or bigot.  Too bad.  I'm tired of every group having a day or holiday but the one I belong to.  I call for the creation of "National White-Boy Day".  Make it a Monday.  The official food can be beer and pizza, and we can watch football.


----------



## KenpoDragon (May 29, 2003)

I may not be a "white boy" but I love beer......uummmmm beer, and pizza, and I could always use another day off of work.

 :drinkbeer :drinkbeer :cheers:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Sure, why not.  

Now, we will need a 'spokesman' who is well renouned for their 'whiteness'... yet isn't too far left or right, and should also be a bit pudgy and balding too...

Ed Asner.   Andy Rooney.   Charlie Brown. 


Regarding the hiring practices... I've seen examples of 'quota' hiring.  I believe it was either the NY state police or the Buffalo police had several vacant positions a few years ago due to there being no suitable 'non-caucasion' applicants, while there were several caucasions who did qualify, except for a pigment issue.  I lost a chance for a government job in Ohio a few years ago due to the fact that I've got an 'outtie' where their 'ideal' candidate would have an 'innie'. (You figure it out) 

My opinion is, put the best -person- for the job into it, regardless of gender and race and religion.  Stop hiring based on anything outside of qualifications and test scores.


----------



## rmcrobertson (May 29, 2003)

I'm not sure that I understand how anyone "knows," that they didn't get a job because they were a "white male," since my experience has been that that's the last thing any hiring committee or job officer will discuss, at least if they're in their right mind. Among other things, by federal (and in California, nyway, State) law, they'd be opening themselves up to a discrimination suit...so how, exactly, do you know? and why didn't you sue, since you believe this to have been deeply wrong?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Regarding my comments, there was a big flareup a while back regarding the state jobs...it was a while back, and I don't recall many of the specifics.  As to the Ohio job, the recruiter basically said 'youve got the skills, but they really want a woman for this position'.  I left Ohio shortly afterwards so never bothered to pursue it.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 29, 2003)

As an irishman, when my Grandfather came over here from Ireland he couldn't find work.  "No Irish allowed" was a pretty damn common sign outside buisnesses and things I am told.  He finaly changed the Family name From O'boyle to somthing more "non Irish" 

Too bad, so sad, It happend.  Don't pay me for it, it didnt happen to me...


----------



## Kirk (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I'm not sure that I understand how anyone "knows," that they didn't get a job because they were a "white male," since my experience has been that that's the last thing any hiring committee or job officer will discuss, at least if they're in their right mind. Among other things, by federal (and in California, nyway, State) law, they'd be opening themselves up to a discrimination suit...so how, exactly, do you know? and why didn't you sue, since you believe this to have been deeply wrong? *



I was told flat out, plenty of times.  Try for any government job ...
you'd be surprised at the b.s.  I work for the local gov't where I
live ... one time we were required to submit a list of SURNAMES
to the commisioner's court.  A freeze was put on because one
commisioner felt that there weren't enough spanish surnames.
Where I work, our deparment (IT) is WELL ABOVE the ratios of
minorities who even enter into IT or CS majors in college ... but
that wasn't enough.  Now they're upset that 50% hispanic 
management isn't good enough.

Seperate from an affirmative action issue one time I was 
interviewed for a job by the guy who had already filled the 
position .. but regs required that X number of people be 
interviewed ... once I found that out, I said, "well thank you for
your time" and walked out.


----------



## Ender (May 29, 2003)

the price was already paid with the blood of Union Soldiers.


----------



## chufeng (May 29, 2003)

When my great-grand-father moved to Auburn, Maine from Canada, he was not only not able to find work, but was not allowed to establish his own business...the French weren't looked upon very favorably (and by today's measure, still aren't).

He changed the last name to look more English and established Hachey's Shoe Manufacturing...a successful business at the time...I have no idea if it still exists...although I do remember driving by the place in 1974...my Uncle took me by the place to show me "part of my roots."

Now I've never made much about my heritage (50% French, 25% Danish, and 25% Norwegian) because I am an American...my boys are even more "diluted" since my wife is Philippina...

I can honestly say that my wife's family didn't own slaves (they were landowners but still considered peasants because they worked their small farm by themselves).

Everyone in my family tree worked in factories...don't think anyone in our line owned slaves...

Many blacks have moved to this country SINCE the days of slavery (one of my students is from Kenya)...Many "white-folk" have moved here AFTER the days of slavery...HOW can anyone claim to be OWED something because of the color of their skin? and WHY is it up to the American TAX-PAYER (which includes everyone) to cough up this supposed "justice?"

Who paid the families of the soldiers who died during the Civil War? They got a free burial and a flag plus a lump sum of ??? (certainly not much).

How many slaves, or children of slaves, are still alive?

This is a divisive issue...no doubt.
The people who come to this country from foreign lands seem to be able to establish successful businesses and to flourish...Why??? Because they bust their butts EVERY frickin' day.
They don't come here expecting a hand-out...they are content with the opportunities afforded them...so HOW can anyone who grew up here be less advantaged?  Just work hard...that is all it takes...I did it (no, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth...I'm the only one who finished college (and I paid for it myself) from my family.


:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Seig (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I'm not sure that I understand how anyone "knows," that they didn't get a job because they were a "white male," since my experience has been that that's the last thing any hiring committee or job officer will discuss, at least if they're in their right mind. Among other things, by federal (and in California, nyway, State) law, they'd be opening themselves up to a discrimination suit...so how, exactly, do you know? and why didn't you sue, since you believe this to have been deeply wrong? *


Mr. McRobertson,
Either things are vastly different in California than they are here, or I would like to request those rose colored glasses of yours.  In the instances I mentioned, I know, not believe, know, because I was *TOLD*  I did in fact try to sue.  I contacted several attorneys.  The issue is, they can say anything they damned well please, but unless they commit it to paper, you can't do squat.  I have also seen a very blatant example of this in my current job,  we were about to have an opening and since a job here takes about 6 months to qualify for, we were scrambling ot get it filled.  My supervisor was told "hire a minority, qualifications don't matter as long as they can pass the test and the background investigation."  I was able to get a friend of mine hired, they almost didn't hire him at the main office, because they THOUGHT he was white.  Turns out, he is hispanic; therefore, he was hired, immediately and pushed through the program in 4 months instead of 6.  Also, this area, MD and VA are "right to work" states, that means they can either refuse to hir or fire anyone for any reason.  A supervisor can tell you, "I don't like you, you're fired".  There is nothing you can do about it.  Look closely at affirmatice action, not the way it is supposed to be, but the way it is.  In any position that deals with government or government contracting, there are in fact quotas.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 29, 2003)

Man, I can see by all your replies that none of you have the least bit of understanding of the issue. The problem is that we have ten percent of our population over imprisoned, under educated, under represented. Black people have continualy been slighted since the end of the civil war. When ever a leader or citizen opens their big mouth about how black people are just a bunch of malcontents looking for a hand-out, the resentment only builds on both sides. I'm real happy to hear about how you were poor and put yourself through college blah, blah, blah; but, lack of money is not the problem. These people were robbed of their culture. This is something the Jews, Chinese, Japanese, or even the Irish cannot claim.
      Culture is what drives us to do the things we do and think the way we think. For lack of a culture African Americans have to create their own. This consists of a mixture of western culture and a built in resentment and rejection of western culture. Rather than recognizing the growing problem most people through out history have considered black people a group that should be kept apart from themselves. In turn Black children are raised to distrust cops, teachers, authority figures. They find role models to be people that find a way to beat the system. Ie musicions, gangsters, drug dealers and what not. A true counter-culture has been built by white indifference and black resentment.
      I don't support sending these modern day families a check once a month; however, I do fully support affirmative action. We need to help build and support a black community. Chufeng mentioned that chinese people are not favored in the US well I know that in Washington state a chinese immagrant can recieve government bennefits to open a business. The average citizen black or white cannot. Affirmative action is not perfect but it's the only positive direction we have in effect.
      Don't even get me started on the criminal justice system!


----------



## Matt Stone (May 29, 2003)

My great-grandparents came to the United States, family in tow, to establish a life better than the rural farming and innkeeping tradition they had historically particpated in...

I was accused by a friend of alleged Native American and African ethnic descent that "people like me" had been responsible for the enslavement and genocide of "people like him."

Then I pointed out that "people like me" was an erroneous phrase.  I pointed out that my family has only been in this country for coming up on three generations, and that I can't recall any of them owning anyone (nor my owning anyone, either).  I pointed out that the countries my family members come from have within the last 30 - 50 years been victims of genocide, military confinement, repression, discrimination, murder...  I told him that the most his family has probably had to worry about was inequal employment and rude treatment in public.

Whatever.

I like giving everyone equal opportunity - equal opportunity to fail, not succeed.  Set them up, but don't set them up for success...  Everyone gets an equal, flat playing field, and let the best _person_ win.

Not everybody is special, not everybody is useful, not everybody has a higher purpose...  Some folks are drones, some are not.

Giving somebody cash today for someone's suffering then is ridiculous.  What'd they do to deserve the income?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

It is not me or my own who force a young man to a life of crime.

It is not me or mine who force him to 'act tough' 'be cool' etc and beat the snot outta some poor shmuck who happened to 'dis' him by looking at him 'the wrong way'.

Its not my fault that he lives in a dump that is trashed.

Its not my fault that he is incapable of bending over and picking up the trash on his lawn, or taking 5 minutes to patch a broken window, or take a shower, put on clean clothes, drop the attitude and apply for a job.  Yes, it may only be a job shoveling **** or digging a ditch, but ya know what?  Its honest work.

You are responsible for your own situation.  There are public libraries in every major city.  They can very easily walk their lazy excuse-spouting asses down there and crack a few books.

Oh wait...they cant read.

Maybe they should have you know....stayed in school and learned. The "I had to get a job n help the family' bit stopped being a valid excuse over 50 years ago.  If you can't read and are over 14 yrs old, it is because you did not apply yourself.  Public schools take almost everyone who can behave.

Oh wait, their mothers a crack whore, their daddys up river for 5-9, and their house is condemed and their neighborhood a warzone?  Hey, I didnt make mommy smoke the dope, and daddy rob the liquour store, and I didnt make their area a dump.

It is a proven fact, if you take barbarians and put them in a palace, you will have animals and trash all over the place.  It happened to the Romans.  

It is the responsibility of every individual to seek out the training, education, and experiences to help them reach their peek potential.  

I have no sympathies for trash, be they black, white, yellow, etc.
I have no sympathies for custodial parents who live off support checks and other 'aid'.
I have no sympathies for slackers, or others who refuse to take control of their own lives and destinations, instead falling back to tired cliches and poor excuses.

Bill Cosby, Eddie Murphey, Arsenio Hall, Jesse Jackson, OJ SImpson, Chris Rock, Al Sharpton, Alex Haley, James Earl Jones, Billy Dee Williams, all were called 'sell outs'.  Why?  Because they succeded.

Stanley ONeal, COO of Merrill Lynch. ONeal is slated to take over as CEO of the nations largest brokerage firm in 2004.  Guess what 'color' he is.

Here is an interesting article : http://www.phila-tribune.com/072302-10-P1.htm  Hits both sides of the issue, I think.

Let us not forget Les Brown, motivational speaker.  I also remember a guy by the name of George Halsey.



> "Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off your goals"
> 
> are the words of George Halsey, Amway Super Salesman. George was working as a claims adjuster, and earning just barely enough to make ends meet when he decided to look for other ways to supplement his salary. When a young Amway distributor from Greensboro South Carolina convinced him to work for them, he was off and running.
> 
> With a goal set, and a burning desire to succeed, George went door to door selling cleaning products and retired a young millionaire.



I've heard both Les' and Georges stories.  Simply put, they went through hell and busted their asses, same way as we all need to.  They didn't make excuses...they just did it.

I think we all need to stop making excuses, and take control of our own destinies.


----------



## tarabos (May 30, 2003)

don't look at me...my ancestors were all living in Italy back in those days...


----------



## Kirk (May 30, 2003)

Damned good post Kaith!

I suspect as JFK's 86th birthday passes he is turning over in his 
grave (or where ever he is)watching the hard left, international 
cowardly and weak "leaders" of his party rant their left wing 
nonsense... The country has grown up in the past 50 years. 
People are sick and tired of living in a society where effort & merit 
is penalitized in favor of "equality". I believe JFK had a grip on 
this simple concept which would only have grown stronger as the 
years passed and people realized the damage done to this 
country by years of Roosevelt's dependent society.  The only way 
to get ahead is through hard work & effort, not by leaching off of 
the people who worked hard to achieve..


----------



## Jill666 (May 30, 2003)

I'm not paying anyone reparations for anything- my family also came to America at the turn of the century. Yes- they saw the "no Irish need apply" signs- but that only applied to the "good" jobs. None of my family had any problem finding work as factory workers, construction workers, and cops. I can truly say they didn't own anybody in this country. They had poor educations, but were able to work. My younger sister is the first in the family to have a college diploma- ever. (and the only one, so far.)

I do believe that the schools in "black communities" are substandard, helping to perpetuate a permanent underclass. I do believe that housing many people in huge, monolithic concrete buildings produces feelings of hopelessness and despair. I do believe that those who stay in school are often rewarded by being passed over for jobs, raises, promotions.

The answer isn't a free handout from me. I honestly think that is the most shameful proposal I have ever heard. 

Ever hear the phrase "white trash"? I learned that one in first grade. Nobody calls me white trash now. (At least not to my face).

As for Irish people never being robbed of their culture- nothing could be further from the truth. Being forbidden to speak in their native tongue, practice their religion, pass on land to their children, does that sound familiar yet?

Some of my patients (geriatrics) are Irish first generation with English names. They all changed their names so they could get good jobs. They prefer to be called by their Irish "nicknames"- the names they were called in their home growing up. 

I miss hearing my grandfather's native tongue, the language my father never learned growing up in America. I wish he had learned it, and passed it on. But there was no room for a dying language in a family trying to survive. 

I'm quite sure there are few here who don't have similar stories, no matter what the color, race, creed. Growing up here is no guarantee. But you do have the freedom to go somewhere else, if you do not like where you are. Unless what you prefer is to stay in a neighborhood just left of hell, being angry and bitter. 

Hope is definitely the missing ingredient. I don't see how that will be generated by producing cash that is sure-as-**** not going to go to someone who would be able to make use of it. 

My point of view.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 30, 2003)

I also would like to point out that people who perpetuate a stereotype have NO (read that people ZERO) right to complain that their "people"  are treated in a manner consistant with that stereotype.

And I'm not talking about a color or race here.  I'm talking about ALL colors and races... its a Human thing, not a racial thing...

If you are a crack smoking homeboy with your pants around your ankles who shows up for every Job interview and says "What up dog, lemme git a job Yo" You cannot blame the fact that you are black/Hispanic/Etc...  from keeping you from getting that job.  You know why?  Cuz as a Hiring manager I wouldnt hire you if you were black, hispanic, white or asian.  Its not a racial thing. 

"But thats my culture!" you shout! "You discriminate because I wont give up my culture!"

Hmmm.  Dunno about that.  As a Rivethead I had to give up my piercings, get a haircut to lose the Hawk, and remove the Blue dye, cover my tattoos, and dress the part of a human being to obtain gainful employment.   And I did it. It's not who I am, but it who I am at work.  Its not about culture its about PROFESSIONALISM. 

"Oh but what you just described is SUBCULTURE, thats differant man its not who you are racialy..."  

Hmmm.  Find me a country where the roots go back to speaking Ebonics, dressing like a slob and refusing to work.  I'd like to point out that the Jerry Springer show isn't a country so it doesnt count.  That type of attitude/speach whatever isnt cultural, its Sub-cultural, same as mine.   White People do it... Black People do it.  Hispanic people do it, Asian people do it.  ITS NOT RACIAL AT ALL.  

You cant perpetuate a stereotype and then complain that people treat persons of that <Race/Sex/Color/Creed/Sexual orientation> like the stereotype,  its just ignorant.


----------



## Phil Elmore (May 30, 2003)

*You Can't Live Yesterday: The Folly of Land Claims, Reparations, and Historical Revisionism*


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2003)

Ignorance is bliss.


----------



## rmcrobertson (May 30, 2003)

Sorry guys, for the dose of reality--but in California it is ILLEGAL to hire merely on the basis of "race." Similarly, the quota stuff is sheer nonsense...and you might look up the Bakke decision, some twenty years old, and the subsequent case law. 

Yes, yes. The girls are getting all the jobs. The ____(name of minority here) are. The gays are.  California is...(oh incidentally, I ain't from here. And I ain't a liberal, so get off it. I realize that Rush spouts these caricatures...but nope, wrong, not me) Whatever. Now who's blaming others and "they," for our own problems? 

And is anybody out there naive enough to believe that JFK's "race," and money didn't help just a teeny bit? I mean, the guy plagiarized, "Profiles in Courage."

What's really going on here--no disrespect to your frustrations, I've got my own around these issues--is a) working class ressentiment, turned against the wrong folks; b) men's anxieties, acted out at times in which their historical role seems under attack (see Neil Hertz, "Medusa's Head: Male Hysteria Under Political Pressure,"), c) some very effective propagandizing by the likes of Savage, Limbaugh, et al, d) a  round of magical thinking, in which what we heard from somewhere becomes something that we directly experienced...and e) self-interest, using politics to explain itself.

Minorities are not the enemy, guys. Can "they" act stupidly and irresponsibly? Sure. Do "they," sometimes use what they fantasize as their "race," (ain't no such animal, but that's another story) to retailaie/provide excuses? Sure: fools abound. But "they," are not the enemy. They're your allies, ya just don't know it. 

You want enemies? weellp, fact is, Marx was right about who they are. Problem is, his analyses of class and capital were employed in ways (and may have implications themselves) that proved historically absolutely disastrous (so let's go easy on the YOU"RE A STALINIST! posts, eh?)for millions. Just as disastrous as Christianity and capitalism have proved, in fact...

Now everybody, sing along with the Situationists: "the world won't be happy until the last bureaucrat/is hung with the guts of the last capitalist." yeah, like that'll work. We'll still be stuck with something nebulous called,, "human nature."


----------



## Kirk (May 30, 2003)

Who said they were the "enemy" ????    Most are
saying we are not from privileged upbringings, weren't 
responsible for slavery and don't feel that a single solitary nickle
should come from our pockets to pay those who weren't ever
slaves in the first place.  My enemy in society are those that think
ridding the world of class distinctions, and increasing government
control over it's people is a road to utopia.


----------



## Matt Stone (May 30, 2003)

Point the finger of blame for actions in the present or the past at the persons responsible, not their descendants (unless they had a hand in it).

Take active responsibility for where you find yourself in life.  Like the song says, the bulk of most decisions we make are luck anyway, so you can't really congratulate yourself too much for success, nor castigate yourself too much for failure.

Everyone should have the equal opportunity to fail.  Give everyone a chance to try, and capitalize on the ones that manage to succeed.  If you fail, you fail.  Don't get too worked up about it - find something you succeed at and do that instead.

Interestingly, though, the tax money of those who desire reparations is also paying for the reparations just the same as the tax money of those who don't want the reparations paid for in the first place...  Seems like those "for" end up paying themselves...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson (May 30, 2003)

Absolutely true. I see no reason that money and family position should be able to override ability and knowledge...

As for who the enemies are, Kirk, please re-read my post. The point was that folks have been taught to mis-recognize their natural allies as their enemies, for reasons I enumerated.

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

I used to feel real sorry for how the native americans were treated.  Having spent a significant amount of time on a reservation recently, I feel less sorry.  The owner of the smokeshop I was doing some contract work informed me that he had to hire off reservation folks due to a poor work ethic amongst those he hired locally.  Not all, but enough to effect his bottom line seriously.  After driving through the res, I noticed that once you crossed the border, it got real dirty fast.  Trailers that looked like they have been bombed with multiple rusting abandoned cars lined 1 whole street.  Every lawn was overgrown and rubish filled.  

Recently a house a street away from my mothers was raided by the police.  It had no heat, was rat infested, filth was everywhere.  The matresses were water and waste soaked, and there was human and animal feces everywhere.  This house wasn't in a 'slum', it was in a lower middle class 'white' neighborhood.  The family wasn't poor.  They were just slobs.

I drive through the local 'getto' neignborhoods, I see the same thing.  Garbage on the lawns, in the streets.  Abandoned cars, etc.  dozens of cans and bottles within a 30 second walk of an empty public garbage can.

Giving these people free money wont help them.  They will waste it.  Bubba wont learn to read, Tyrone won't learn to speak, and Sits-On-*** won't show up for work awake and on time.

If thousands of Irish could get off the boat, face massive discrimination and violence and yet build sucessful lives and businesses, why can't groups that have been here for years?

If thousands of asians can get off a boat, work together and succeed when language and stereotypes are major barriers, why can a local?

If thousands of latinos and hispanics can brave death, violence, deportation, language barriers and worse, why can't people who are already here not?

I saw a story about a guy who raised his son while living in a public restroom in NYC.  Guy took every oportunity he could to better himself and grow as a person.  He now runs a very sucessful business and has gone back to his roots to help more people suceed.  He's one of those 'sell outs' I mentioned earlier.


Race is an illusion, an excuse for failure.  Sucess is up to you.  If you sit on your ***, wait for handouts, cop an attitude, dont take the time to learn to read or speak properly, cant be bothered to take pride in yourself and what you do, then, stay poor, keep living in filth.

Do I think there is one single black, or indian who is owed a single $? Nope.

Jew or Japanese owed for WW2 issues?  Maybe, but only if it happened to you.  If it happened to your grandfather, no, I dont.


These are just -my- opinions.  They do not reflect the opinions of MartialTalk or its staff.

:asian:


----------



## streetwise (May 30, 2003)

I love the idea of reparations! First, as a descendent of a Scottish Highland clan, I would like my, oh I'll be nice, 20 million pounds from the Brits for the Highland clearances. The, when my people finally got to the US, they were passed over for jobs in favor of freed slaves (supposedly harder workers who would take more crap from bosses), so take $1000 bucks in taxes from every African American and send THAT to me. Let's see, what else should I get? You know, it takes longer to get my food at my favorite east Austin resturant, since I have to wait for the English speaking waitress, so those Hispanic-Americans should have to pony up something. What about those Asians? Dammit, I got to get an angle on MY money that they are holding, that's how they keep my people down, don't 'cha know?


Look, reparations is probably the single silliest idea in 50 years. Work hard, adapt to workplace conditions and economic realities, overcome, achieve, succeed or fail on your own merits. Appropriate on a martial arts forum, isn't it?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

> overcome, achieve, succeed or fail on your own merits.



Nah...it'll never catch on.


----------



## J-kid (May 30, 2003)

You should not pay for people crimes in the past, It was not your fault and there for you should not be heald accountable.

Also no one in my family had slaves and my family came from germany and fiji and i have traced back my relitives pritty far.

I dont mean to be rude but the only people who have ever tryed to make me feel like i might o them somthing are african americans.   Now i have alot of friends who are african americans but ever once in a blue moon i come across someone who is a african american that will try and make it seem that i o him somthing because somewhere across the line cucasions owned a slave in his family.  

I believe that all races including cucasions have been apressed and have been inslaved.  If you go back far enough in any race or relegion there are tails of horrorible things happening.

You dont need to forget the past but you do need to put it behind you.


----------



## fist of fury (May 30, 2003)

All these whinners get old yeah the past sucked deal with it. Oh too bad you grew up in a lousy neighborhood deal with it. Your mom was a crack whore too bad your dad was a drunk...wah..wah life is rough welcome to reality so I propose this....

We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help
everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more
riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the
blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our
great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and
establish some commonsense guidelines for the terminally whiny,guilt-ridden,
delusional, bed wetters.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people are confused
by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of No Rights.

ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other
form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them,but no one is
guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This Country is
based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone -- not just you! You may
leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the
world is full of idiots, and probably always will be ... and like the rest of us
you need to simply deal with it.

ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a
screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool
manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are
the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but
we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of
professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of
another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice,
but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health
care.

ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you
kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the
rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob,
cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised
if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still
won't have the right to a big screen color TV, pool tables, weight rooms or a
life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want you to have
a job, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take
advantage of the opportunities of part time jobs, education and vocational
training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE IX: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American
Means that you have the right to PURSUE happiness -- which by the way, is a lot
easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by
those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

ARTICLE X: This is an English speaking country. We don't care where you are
from. We welcome you here. English is our language and like the one you left
behind, we also have a culture. Learn it or go back to the country and the
living conditions you were fleeing.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

Interesting poit : 20 votes - 100% against.  

hmm....


----------



## fist of fury (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *You should not pay for people crimes in the past, It was not your fault and there for you should not be heald accountable.
> 
> Also no one in my family had slaves and my family came from germany and fiji and i have traced back my relitives pritty far.
> ...



It's good too see you posting again I haven't seen you post in a while I miss these wild and wacky posts


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2003)

I must have missed that Clan rally that said injustices our country commited in the passed should be ignored and consequences be damned. Sieg heil!:moon:


----------



## fist of fury (May 30, 2003)

Seems I missed the group hug session that says I'm accountable for injustices had nothing to do with me.


----------



## Matt Stone (May 30, 2003)

Just a side note, though partially related...

I am of English, Irish, Dutch, French (sorry, but I am), Russian (from Catherine the Great, no less!) and Czech descent.  So what kind of "- American" does that make me?  Can I pick and choose as I like?

The point?

I *hate* :angry: the entire pretentious BS of "XXX-Americans."  What a separatist, elitist load of steaming horse s**t.

If you are an American, then you are an American.  Plain and simple.  The people that want to waltz around with some hyphenation, to identify themselves as something more and apparently better than a "regular" American, need to be reminded that their ancestors, for one reason or another, left their homelands for something possibly better (in some cases not, but they didn't make much of an effort to repatriate themselves either...).

First step is to stop this with a Louisville Slugger to the face.  By stopping the neo-tribalism that comes with such labeling, we begin to see the similarities instead of focusing on the differences.

I am of the above specified ethnic heritages.  My wife is Filipino, Hawaiian and Chinese (we aren't too sure on the Chinese, but we have reason to believe the claim).  My kids' Godfather is of German descent and his wife is Japanese.  Their Godmother is Mexican and her husband is Polish.  We speak English as our primary language, peppered liberally with Spanish, Japanese and Tagalog/Visayan.  We disdain cultural limitations of any kind, and I jokingly refer to our family as "La Familia del Arco Iris."

So what kind of payment can _we_ get?  I'm sure somebody owes us some kind of reparation...  So who wants to pony up? 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## arnisador (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *You Can't Live Yesterday: The Folly of Land Claims, Reparations, and Historical Revisionism *



Subtitled, _The Winners Get to Write the History Books (and Laws)!_.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

I'd like to take a moment and apologize for anyone offended by some of my comments.  My use of certain terms such as "Bubba", "Tyrone", "Sits-on-***", "crack whore" etc. were meant to point out stereotypes, and not meant to insult members of any group or culture.

I let some of my frustrations show through, and for that, I apologize.

Inequality based on skin color, gender, religion, sexual preference, etc should not be tolerated.

Peace.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng (May 30, 2003)

My wife was born and raised in the Philippines.
English is a Fourth language for her...her primary dialect is Ilocono.

When we were in college, she had to translate to her language and then translate back to English to answer questions (both on tests and in class)...a slow process, to be sure...she held a 2.9 throughout her undergraduate training...HOW? She didn't sleep when she should have...she would literally be crying while typing a paper because she wanted desperately to sleep and was tired of the 2nd or 3rd rewrite (I edited her work and always marked it up in red...tough on her, but it paid off)...

In her senior year, she took a course purely out of a desire to study something unrelated to nursing...(Botony) she got an A...

There was a Chicago born and raised Phillipina who was in the same class...she got a D...she claimed prejudice and an unfair testing method...she claimed a "language" barrier...She tried to recruit my wife into her little group of "victims." Cora told her that the reason she got a D was because she didn't study and because she liked partying more than doing the work necessary to succeed...Of course, this "victim" said Cora had been poisoned by living with me, a white guy...

I still say...if you want to succeed and you're willing to work hard...you will, regardless of your background.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 30, 2003)

No, your a racist. Deal with it. As someone that runs this websight those were some pretty volitile remarks kidding or not. no one alive is responsible for slavery in the US (except maybe my place of employment); however a problem still exists its all our problem and it will continue to be our problem. As for your drug statement, you just wait; because crystal meth will effect WHITE people you know and love and you can't blame that one on black wellfare mothers. So just hide and watch.


----------



## Kirk (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *No, your a racist. Deal with it. *



WhatEVER.


----------



## chufeng (May 30, 2003)

If Chris Rock, or Sinbad, or Eddie Murphy were to say the same thing...would they be labelled a racist?   nO...but, each of them have said the same thing, in their own way...

Basically, get up off your butt and do some work (not addressed to anyone inparticular...but my point is HOW someone will accept criticism from one person, but not another...

Truth is, I would like to see what Lena Horn has to say about this...or Sammy Davis, Jr. (rest his soul)...of course, things were difficu7lt for many people of color (not just blacks) for many years.

Hopefully we've moved beyond that.

But I know that my wife had a much better chance at getting accepted at the private college we went to...because she was Philippina.

In fact, the school said that had I not taken some college courses on my own, when enlisted, I would probably have not made the cut...Cora was a shoe in...no questions asked (even though I had A work and she C work in the same "college" classes (which we took when enlisted) ...if I would have relied on my Senior High School performance...I would not have been accepted...she would have been...(Gub'ment subsidies are are a wunderful thang).

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (May 30, 2003)

Addendum to above post...

Somehow, by accepting lower standard entrance criteia based on race, the school benefitted financially....but what cost in terms of reduction of expectation.........

I do think I got an excellent education at the school I went to...but I also think that many white kids simply did not make the cut, while others who wanted to blame skin color for their own poor study habits were able to at least have a go at a degree.

Affirmitive action??? How is exclusion of a group affirmative?

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Mon Mon (May 30, 2003)

Touch'O'Death Please no name calling i started this post because i wanted to see what other people think. and For the other people please keep it clean this is a sensitive issue and if you just start name calling then your degenerating your self.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *No, your a racist. Deal with it. As someone that runs this websight those were some pretty volitile remarks kidding or not. no one alive is responsible for slavery in the US (except maybe my place of employment); however a problem still exists its all our problem and it will continue to be our problem. As for your drug statement, you just wait; because crystal meth will effect WHITE people you know and love and you can't blame that one on black wellfare mothers. So just hide and watch. *



Ok, let me see if I understand this right...I'm a racist.

Because I don't think blacks should have it any easier than anyone else?

Because I believe people should be held accountable for their actions?

Because I don't believe in free handouts?

Because I believe someone should earn their way?

Because I have no sympathy for lazy, excuse making bastards regardless of their skin color or genetic makeup?

Or, am I a racist because I used a few stereotypes *for many groups* in a post?


Let me ask you this:
Are you a slave?
Were your parents?
Were your grandparents?
How about your great-grandparents?

My family came over from Poland in the late 1880's.  Slavery was ended in the United States in the 1860's.  There is no way -I- owe anything.

Another question.... when we collect this money to pass out to these poor, deserving soles, are we only going to collect it from those "white bastards" or will we also be taking it from the decendents of the "3,777 Black slave owners" (according to the 1830 census)?


Call me what you will, I've had better do worse.  But I think the true racist is the one who believes someone is owed something or should be judged on some pigment and ancestory.  I believe we should all be judged on our abilities and merits regardless.  If that makes me a racist, then yes, pass me the damn sheet....I'll have a good ol fasioned Toga Party!  I'll even bring the grapes.

 

- Bob Hubbard - 

My opinions are my own, and do not represent the opinions or policies of this forum, its staff, or host company.
:asian:


----------



## Mon Mon (May 30, 2003)

Rascist- A person in power that is preduice that keeps a person down .



 And how dose Kaith Keep any of us down?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

2 other points dude...

a- I never said I was kidding....just said they might be inapropriate.

b- Whys the score up there 23 No, 1 Maybe and ZERO yes? Hmm...


As to the drug problem....Lets see...I've buried 1 friend, seen the results of the 'party' drugs on 2 others...are you whining about my "crack whore" comment?  Sheesh. 

I know a Quake Clan that refers to themselves as the "Crack Whores"...they are tough gals too... don't mean they are racist, easy or drug users/supporters.

I dont blame -anything- on "black wellfare mothers"...show me where I did?

Why would I "just hide and watch"?  Is that a threat?

I think someones just a little too thin skinned here.


I'm honestly laughing at the racist bit...I went to a 90% black highschool, went to a 70% black grade school, have regularly worked, trained, and socialized with blacks...and 'yellows' and 'reds'.  My first Karate instructor was black.  Hell, in highschool I almost had a 'black' girlfriend. (She had eyes that could melt a mans soul... -her- family was not thrilled with the idea, so we left it as friends.  V. sweet gal..went on to be a doctor I believe...*by working her *** off to get somewhere.*

So, I really should be offended, but I find the idea so ludicrist that I am actually laughing.

:rofl:


----------



## arnisador (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Whys the score up there 23 No, 1 Maybe and ZERO yes? Hmm...*



Clearly, this reflects the site's demographics. You're taking a voluntary sample of Internet-using martial artists. Skewed? Coulld be, yeah.



> But I think the true racist is the one who believes someone is owed something or should be judged on some pigment and ancestory.



Like the age-old claim to Israel that was granted to those whose ancestors had long since left there?

You're looking at it at an individual level. Clearly, race is a recognized social construct. (Race is negligible from a biological standpoint--biological differences between races are truly minimal.) When you look at two individuals of different races or genders, these progams seem--and likely are--unfair. But what about for _groups_? The weak teams get the good draft slots to level the playing field in sports. Is there some value to doing the same with social groups so they can get stronger as a group? That's the real reasoning--groups, not individuals.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2003)

My point with the current poll results is that despite at least 1 individual posting they were for the idea, they didnt bother to -vote- for it.... I just find it odd...

and...lets avoid the whole isreal/palestinian thing.... got enough trying to be overworked, stressed and a racist, to add anti-semitic or anti-arab or whatever to my work list.... 


Ok, lets look at the groups then.

What has this generation or the previous 2 generations of 'whites' done that justifies paying these reparations to these 'former slaves'? See, None of them look to be 140+ years old.  I dont agree that giving them what amounts to 'free money' is the answer.

I think its a combination of employers hiring on merits, schools admiting on a non-quota system, grants and health care and other aid programs being evenly distributed, and people *of all sorts* getting off their collective lazy asses and doing something positive with their lives rather than waiting for someone else to either do it for them or give them a hand out.

I'd hire a black, and indian, an arab, an asian, hell, a martian.  All they gotta do in know the job requiirements, speak clearly in english, have good heigine, and be willing to work. Is that a bad thing?

If so, someone shoot me.

-Bob


----------



## rmcrobertson (May 31, 2003)

Y'all are right. No more free handouts, no more passes on what the rest of us have to do, for the likes of Dan Quayle and Bush Jr. Equal treatment under the law...no more "legacies," for the children of the rich who are too dumb to go to Yale, no more big advantages of wealth for the children of the greedy...no more passes through the law for the Hearst kids...no more getting to treat a Senate seat as a family heirloom for the likes of Al Gore...in brief, more affirmative action for the wealthy, the only truly oppressed class.

PS--and no more advantages for those who can't spell, "reparations," neither.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2003)

Robert, 
  I could go for hours on those subjects...the polititions who practically 'live' in office, get all the stuff we have to bust our asses for for free (cars, haircuts, airfare, furnature, etc).  The 'Dynasties' that live off past glory, and a 'name' yet aren't 1/10th the people that 'made it', the 'perks' some get due to their names.  (Bush gals for example.  Any of us who did that crap woulda been breakin rocks in a state run hotel....) 

Maybe if the 'high society' wants to truely be worthy of the title, they should take a few extra tax dedutctions and fund some RIF programs in their towns, or do some mentoring at the SBA.


:asian: 

-Bob


----------



## Matt Stone (May 31, 2003)

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, or the messenger sent with bad news, but for the folks who like to play the racist card, whichever side of the table they may sit on, there is only *one* race...

The taxonomy for this misbegotten, hairless, poorly designed parasite is:

Chordata > Mammalia > Primates > Catarrhini > Hominidae > Homo > Homo sapiens > Homo sapiens var. sapiens 

Note there is no identifier for "black," "white," "yellow," etc., nor for Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid (the official Anthropological descriptions for the three primary species appearances).  Just good ol' Homo Sapiens Sapiens...  So any bitches, gripes or complaints we have to aim should really be aimed at our _race_ in general, since in my experience there has not yet been a single variant of the specie that has a specific claim to monopoly on misbehaving...  Trash is Trash, regardless which part of the inner city, trailer park, or barrio they come from.

So next time somebody calls you a racist, tell 'em that sure, you are one...  You hate people.  

One Race.  One Love.  All are One.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Trash is Trash, regardless which part of the inner city, trailer park, or barrio they come from. *



And just to stifle the potential for flaming ahead of time, my background comes from the lower middle class section of South Omaha...  My parents came from the part of town where the Czechs, Poles, Greeks and Sicilians concentrated.  There were gangs among all the groups, and inter-ethnicity "warfare" was common (though it didn't include wearing their pants nearly falling off their butts, or dressing in identical matching Starter gear).  

In time, South Omaha added a large number of Latino immigrants, and the Greeks moved on or died out.  The Sicilian community dwindled, and it was largely the Czechs and Poles that remained with the Latinos (largely of Mexican descent).

Now, if you go to the heart of South Omaha, on 24th Street from about F Street to L Street and beyond, nearly all the shops are bilingual in their advertising - and the English is just there for the benefit of the visitors to the neighborhood! 

My family has its share of alcoholics, low lifes, addicts and losers.  We don't come from the trailer park, but we can see it from the front porch.  Few in my family have any higher education at all, much less a college degree.  I'm the closest so far, but I have two cousins who are quite promising to be the first ones in 4 generations to manage to pull free of the lower middle class construction worker black hole we call our heritage.

So for the folks who want to flame me for my comments, flame away.  Just thought I'd let you know where I come from before you start...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 31, 2003)

Kaith,
first of all I never said we owe black people anything; we owe it to our selves to send as many black people we can to college and lower standards if need be; because, its the right thing to do for our country. We need to stop streamlining black males through the prison system. Our prison system is becomming minority housing for god sake. It is rapidly becoming our largest gross national product. That is an embarrasment. If we hired a few more teachers instead of a few new cops we could possibly reverse some of this desparity we propogate. Hoodlams begat more hoodlams.


----------



## Kirk (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *If we hired a few more teachers instead of a few new cops we could possibly reverse some of this desparity we propogate. Hoodlams begat more hoodlams. *



No argument there ... that's a long drawn out process.  I don't 
know that MORE teachers are the answer, but maybe looking at
the entire education system.

Just the other day, a friend of mine out of the blue claimed to be
a racist  .  I make it a point not to socialize with people like
that, so I was taken aback.  He said he hated "Mexicans".  He
meant hispanics that were born and raised here.  It dawned on
me how many hispanics are in our "crowd", and brought that up.
He kept going, "well yeah, but she's okay, he's okay" etc.  What
it boiled down to was he was fed up with hispanics that are
making no effort to better themselves, are living off welfare, and
are teaching their kids to do the same.  Now I'm still not going to
be hanging out with this person (I don't want that crap around
my daughter) ... but education IS the key.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Kaith,
> first of all I never said we owe black people anything; we owe it to our selves to send as many black people we can to college  *



Owe it to send them?  I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean...  If they want to go, can't they just go?  Yeah, I'm pretty sure they can... even if its community college,  and if they are too poor to afford it, the same financial aid and student loans are availible to them as anyone else if they apply for it. 
They could also enlist in the military and get free education on the GI bill.  Why should they, I, you or him,  get a handout?  



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *and lower standards if need be; because, its the right thing to do for our country. *



Uh, lower the standards, like teaching Ebonics in school as a legitimate language?  THAT'S going to help someone get a job in the real world.  Or teaching New math, where 1+1 = 6 as long as you tried to answer you arent wrong, so you will feel good about  yourself???  Lowering standards just leads to a lower standard of society.  

In my nieghborhood (which is rapidly becoming a suburban ghetto full of gangs, trash (the actual garbage kind, I dont mean people) section 8 housing, crime and disrepair) the city is actually TRYING to improve the neighborhoods by fining people with trash on their lawns, condemning buildings etc...

But in a lot of areas they "Lowered the standards" and you HAVE "Barrios", "projects" etc...  where they wont even show up, let alone try and enforce anything.  

And on th subject of Spelling which came up above as well... Please forgive my poor grammer, I have no real college education to speak of.  (Damn, and I still managed to pull down a 1/2way decent job, well, one that pays enough to pay for  my house, car and other costs of living, guess that HARD WORK really DOES pay off.)


----------



## Nightingale (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Technopunk _
> *
> 
> 
> ...




Regarding Ebonics... it was a stupid idea to begin with, but what it came down to was FUNDING.  The school was not TEACHING ebonics, it was trying to classify the dialect as a foreign language so they could get more state funding to help teach those students who grew up speaking it and didn't know correct English grammar.  Classifying Ebonics as a foreign language would enable them to put those students in programs that could provide assistance.  However, since it is obvious that Ebonics is a dialect and not a language (someone speaking Ebonics can communicate to me, and I can communicate to them, even though I'm not speaking Ebonics), they just made themselves look foolish.  

Regarding Math...  Tests exist to check understanding.  The students get credit for whatever portion of the math problem is correct, using the correct methods.  If a math problem takes seven steps to solve, and the student does six out of seven steps correctly, and makes a simple computation error on step seven, the student receives six points correct out of seven, because the student did six out of seven items correctly.  Conversely, if a student uses methods that don't make mathematical sense, makes numerous computation errors, and still by some miracle comes up with the correct answer by strange coincidence, the student would receive no credit for the answer, because the test is checking for understanding that the student failed to demonstrate.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2003)

I do not believe lowering standards is a good thing.

Would you want a doctor who skimmed by with a 55 average?
An accountant who had failed math, then only got thru due to a lowering of the curve?

When I was in gradeschool, failute was 70.  In highschool it was dropped to 65.  When my sister got to highschool, it was further lowered to 55...and they were talking about dropping it to 45!!! You wouldn't lower your martial arts schools standards so that 'black belt' requires 4 days outta 4 years and the ability to hold a horse stance and throw a straight punch.  So, why lower the requirements for basic life skills?

I'm sorry, but thats not the answer.  Neither is throwing money at the problem.  

We can have a state of the art school, fully equipped, and fully staffed, with an aid in each class, and tutors standing by....what good is it if the student is not there?

I'm a nerd, a geek, a bookworm.  When I was in HS, it was so 'uncool' to read.  To read -anything-.  The 'heros' were the 'tough guys' who claimed they didn't need to know how to read, or count.  

-IF- any group wants to improve their lots in life, the ability ot master the basics are a requirement.  That means getting their asses in to a school, and applying themselves to the work, to learn it, master it, and then, move beyond.

This isn't a 'white' thing, its a 'success' thing.  They have to discover that which so many others, many in -worse- situations did.  That to succede, requires effort, and endurence.

Heres a short list of notable 'blacks'.  I did some digging on backgrounds for 2, but there are many more. (I like the quote by mr. Dean.).



> Granville Woods
> Claim to fame:
> 
> Invented an improved steam boiler furnace in 1884. Also patented more than 150 electrical devices including the original telephone system and transmitter and the railway telegraph.
> ...



I say, fully fund education, get the teachers skills up to speed, then, RAISE the standards.  Make 70 the 'fail' point.  Have the programs available to give extra help to those who need it. As was mentioned earlier, it will just take time, endurence and extra effort.  Some will have to give up their social lives, their sports, their free time.  But, the doors that will open, and the self confidence they will build by solving and beating the problems, will build -MEN- and -WOMEN- which is sorely lacking in America today, regardless of pigment issues.

The questions is, if we build it, will they come?

If they want to make payments for past slights, a check to the individual will not work. Put the money into the education system, and encourage the kids -and- adults to get their butts into school, and educate themselves.  Education -IS- power.


----------



## Rich Parsons (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Regarding Ebonics... it was a stupid idea to begin with, but what it came down to was FUNDING.  The school was not TEACHING ebonics, it was trying to classify the dialect as a foreign language so they could get more state funding to help teach those students who grew up speaking it and didn't know correct English grammar.  Classifying Ebonics as a foreign language would enable them to put those students in programs that could provide assistance.  However, since it is obvious that Ebonics is a dialect and not a language (someone speaking Ebonics can communicate to me, and I can communicate to them, even though I'm not speaking Ebonics), they just made themselves look foolish.
> *


Nightingale,

I agree with your comments and presentation of the data here.  Thank you.



> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Regarding Math...  Tests exist to check understanding.  The students get credit for whatever portion of the math problem is correct, using the correct methods.  If a math problem takes seven steps to solve, and the student does six out of seven steps correctly, and makes a simple computation error on step seven, the student receives six points correct out of seven, because the student did six out of seven items correctly.  Conversely, if a student uses methods that don't make mathematical sense, makes numerous computation errors, and still by some miracle comes up with the correct answer by strange coincidence, the student would receive no credit for the answer, because the test is checking for understanding that the student failed to demonstrate. *



Yes, I was in trouble as a young person for having undiagnosed Dyslexia, and also acute understanding of pattersn and mathematics.

In second grade (* 1972-73 Age 6-7 *), I was asked to sum up the values of 1 to 100. I said to myself, 100 and then 1-49 matched with 51 to 99 gives me 49 more 100's and then the 50. SO I added it all up real quick in my head, and then wrote it down and gave ti to the instructor. She told me there was no way I could have answered that problem.

Yet, this does not take away from those that did it the traditional way. And eys they did get full credit 


As to racism, Universities are bad for preference's. I agree it should be based upon scores and capabilities. I was on a hiring selection committee for a University and we had problems when Afirmative action got involved. We had ranked all the people from 1 to 300. the top 25 were all real close. We were told we could only interview the top five. Well Affimative action stepped in and told us we were all wrong and had to do it all over. This is the first time we got to see names and age and sex. The Top 5 consisted of a single white male, a married white female, a married hispanic female, a married white male and an married Asian Male. Note: number 6 and 7 were both African American's, one male and the other female. Now, Affirmative action insisted we go and reconsider certain people in the teen's and twenties.
As I was a student I got away with a lot. I said ok, no problem, do what you have to do to save your carears, to the professors, I told the Chair that I would contact the local news for an interview. We interviewed the top 7. Now here is where more discrimination occured. THe number one, already got a better job elswhwere. The number two was a female and she told the interview committe that she as pregnant. This lost the job for her, since she would be off for maturnity leave in the fall. The number three person interviewed well and this was our choice. We had to go back for a second interview and only interview the 3rd, Hispanic Female and the 6 & 7 African American's.  We hired the hispanic female. HSe was the best. Note: Any in the top 25 were more than qualified for the job. The Top 5 could have and some did get choice job's elsewhere. The top ten where not left without jobs, they may just have had to look furhter.

So, equality is something I hope for. Including if they ever re-instate the draft registration, that both males and females have to register. Equality for consideration for governement loans and grants.

Just my opinions 

Have a nice day
:asian:


----------



## arnisador (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Ok, lets look at the groups then.
> 
> What has this generation or the previous 2 generations of 'whites' done that justifies paying these reparations to these 'former slaves'? See, None of them look to be 140+ years old. *



The last widow of a Civil War vet passed away within the past decade or so--I recall reading about it in the paper.

I think we'd agree that recently freed slaves in 1865 were at a disadvantage. Some would overcome it. The next generation was also at a disadvantage--more would be in a position to overcome it. The disadvantage continues to decrease, though within my lifetime a governor has pledged to block all African-American students from attending a public university in his state. The federal govt. needed to use the National Guard to stop that.

When did the disadvantage disappear? If it is hasn't, then the question becomes how big it is. I'd say it diminishes every decade but hasn't yet gone away.

It's also necessary to distinguish between any lingering effects of slavery and the still-present effects of prejudice and discrimination. Prejudice helped enable slavery by allowing Europeans to declare Africans sub-human and hence able to be enslaved. (African tribes were frequently complicit--they conducted many of the raids and sold their fellow Africans to the Europeans.) The effects of prejudice remain today.

It's complicated. I once qualified for a prestigious fellowship in every category but 'white male' and wasn't overly happy about that. But on the other hand are issues both of fairness and of doing what's best for the country. Let's see, what does history teach us about keeping a group of people who have a sense of group identity in poor conditions compared to those who appear to be in power?


----------



## arnisador (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *In second grade (* 1972-73 Age 6-7 *), I was asked to sum up the values of 1 to 100. I said to myself, 100 and then 1-49 matched with 51 to 99 gives me 49 more 100's and then the 50. SO I added it all up real quick in my head, and then wrote it down and gave ti to the instructor. She told me there was no way I could have answered that problem.*



This is a famous story about C.F. Gauss.



> *
> As to racism, Universities are bad for preference's. I agree it should be based upon scores and capabilities. *



For admissions, colleges have always tried for diversity: Regional (students from all 50 states and abroad), interests (even at a technical school you have to have people who want to work the student paper, be in band, do sports and student govt., etc.), and so on. There's a value to the students in having some heterogeneity. In many cases such individuals are admitted despite lower test scores--athletes are a well-known case, but if a school has admitted students from 49 states, expect that guy from Anchorage to start looking better all the time. If only three people with an interest in musical instruments apply and the school has a pep band, they're in good shape. Should race be included? I don't know the answer.

Not everyone appreciates the value of education--especially if they have attended a very bad public school. If the public schools have failed them, they may dismiss further education. Do we owe it to such people to correct that?


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 31, 2003)

no, nobody owes any one anything. In fact lets all put our heads in the sand and let all those bastards kill eachother.  Of course our sons and daughters will just have to accept that they are better than those people. Just because the family structure of black people was completly turned on its ear over one hundred years ago doesn't mean the surviving results should recieve a damn bit of compassion. Rather than get to the root of the problem and nip it in the bud with an active education plan we should dance on the graves of those trained since birth to hate white america. We didn't ask them to breed. Hey, maybe we should institute a sterilization program; now, that is money well spent. Wait I know, We can hire lower income whites(who obviously lossed there job to a minority) to be the jailers and guards for lower income blacks. That would be perfect. Oh wait we already do that. Got any Ideas?


----------



## Kirk (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> * Of course our sons and daughters will just have to accept that they are better than those people.*



Nobody in this thread have ever once claimed to be better than
"those people".  Not one.



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Just because the family structure of black people was completly turned on its ear over one hundred years ago*



So it's all about black people? What about hispanics?  Aren't
they in the group?

What about Jews, Chinese, Japanese?  Oh wait, they're  not
blaming anyone, or asking for reperations, they just face the
adversity head on and create their own destiny through hard
work.



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *doesn't mean the surviving results should recieve a damn bit of compassion.*



Compassion?  Wow, you must be right  ... no one in this thread
has been discussing compassion ... maybe because that's not
the topic of this thread? hmmmm



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Rather than get to the root of the problem and nip it in the bud with an active education plan we should dance on the graves of those trained since birth to hate white america.*



Those aren't the only ones who'd get the bill.  You're talking about
a VERY small percentage of the population.  Why is it that the
current education plan works on a lot of minorities, -including-
blacks?  I'll bet it's because the * worked* for it!



> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Wait I know, We can hire lower income whites(who obviously lossed there job to a minority) to be the jailers and guards for lower income blacks. That would be perfect. Oh wait we already do that. *



No one has said they lost their job to a minority .. however many
have not gotten a job, because they -had- to hire a minority.  Do
you deny that affirmative action is in place?  There's a real easy
way for minorities to stay out of jail ... it's called "not breaking
the law".  But I'm sure none of them have .. it's all those racists
bred by the KKK that are in power, and are framing them :shrug:


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 31, 2003)

for one thing. No hispanics are not included in this discussion. Nor is any other minority group that was not robbed of its culture and if affirmative action isnt about compassion I dont know what is. Every body keeps trying to put there own family's plights into this dicussion. But unless you have this particular history they are not part of this discussion or the problem so keep your Polish, Irish, Japanese, or whatever problems to you selves(unless you want to start another thread).


----------



## Kirk (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *for one thing. No hispanics are not included in this discussion. Nor is any other minority group that was not robbed of its culture and if affirmative action isnt about compassion I dont know what is. Every body keeps trying to put there own family's plights into this dicussion. But unless you have this particular history they are not part of this discussion or the problem so keep your Polish, Irish, Japanese, or whatever problems to you selves(unless you want to start another thread). *



Well we certainly aren't talking about slaves either.  The side of
blacks (not all of whom even have forefathers that were slaves),
is that they've faced too much adversity as a result of their great 
grandfather/mother being a slave.  That's crap.  And by those
mentioning their own adversities and that of our grandparents ...
we're saying that it's not a matter of the color of your skin.  You
get what you work for, and don't need any reparations to make
it in this country.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2003)

The phenomininon of the black experience in the US is still an unique problem that isn't getting any better. Calling it crap and pretending it isnt real isnt getting us any where. Maybe President Hillary will make you understand. Just like Kenedy made the south understand in the sixties.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2003)

No one is pretending its not real or ignoring it.  I can cite you statistics on problems that effect blacks.

Low literacy
high unemployment
high crime
high teen pregnancies
high drug use
high poverty

Being sarcastic won't solve the problem.  Neither will free handouts of cash.

In my area, our main library (its huge for the area...) sits a 5 minute walk from -3- grade schools in a predominently black neighborhood.  They offer a variety of tutor and mentor programs to the public.  Just walk in and sign up.  The library is on many major bus routes.  I asked the librarian about who uses their programs....her reply was that it was mostly used by college students, and folks from the subburbs.... not those in the local neighborhood.

I'm sorry, but you tell me why this is?

Here, pass this along to some folks...I think this guys great.  I wore out a copy of his first book a few years back:
http://www.lesbrown.com/htdocs/index.htm


> *Les Brown*
> Born a twin in low-income Liberty City in Miami, Florida, Les and his twin brother, Wes, were adopted when they were six weeks old by Mrs. Mamie Brown. Mrs. Brown was a single woman who had very little education or financial means, but a very big heart. As a child Les' inattention to school work, his restless energy, and the failure of his teachers to recognize his true potential resulted in him being mislabeled as a slow learner. The label and the stigma stayed with him, damaging self-esteem to such an extent that it took several years to overcome.
> 
> Passion to Learn and His Hunger to Realize Greatness
> ...


----------



## arnisador (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *In my area, our main library (its huge for the area...) sits a 5 minute walk from -3- grade schools in a predominently black neighborhood.  They offer a variety of tutor and mentor programs to the public.  Just walk in and sign up.  The library is on many major bus routes.  I asked the librarian about who uses their programs....her reply was that it was mostly used by college students, and folks from the subburbs.... not those in the local neighborhood.
> 
> I'm sorry, but you tell me why this is?
> *



I see two possibilities:

1.) It's a societal/sociological issue.
2.) It's a genetic issue.

(One might further add a possibility of it being a combination of factors, but that won't matter for my purposes.) If you side with explanation 1.), then you should side with social responses--maybe not affirmative action or reparations, but some sort of social/govt. response. If you side with explanation 2.), then you believe it's a genetic predisposition shared by a particular race of people, that is, that their race is an adequate explanation of the facts.

You claim to have noticed a significant set of behaviours shared by members of a certain race in a certain region. You correlate this with poverty. What is the cause of this set of behaviours? How, if at all, should it be addressed?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 1, 2003)

I go with #1 (1.) It's a societal/sociological issue.)

Why?

Because on one side of this main library you have a large, predominently black neighborhood.  On the other side, you have a thin strip of downtown (2-4 blocks maybe) and then a large predominently hispanic neighborhood.  Both are suffering from very similar problems.

I don't think its genetic...I've seen too many examples of sucessful 'blacks' to subscribe to that falicy.

I think its social...and I think its mostly self-generated.  
Why wont they walk 10 minutes to learn to read?  
Why won't they go to school?  
Why won't they take the initiative in keeping their neighborhood clean?

There are -many- new houses there too...aimed at improving the neighborhood...very nice houses.  They knocked down a number of 'slum' level projects to do so.  The city really went all out.  The cars in the driveways are newer models, and they families are making an effort to keep things up.  

The fact is, education and inititive = success.  The harder and smarter you work, the more likely you will succeed.  Sitting on your butt waiting for a handout never got anyone thru college.

My opinion is, and has been, no matter how much you spend, if folks dont want to get off their asses, you are wasting your money. Going back to the crack-ho for a moment...if we give her $10,000 cuz her great great grandma worked a field for RE Lee, will she really clean herself up, get an education and start to improve her life, or will she go out and OD on junk?  Why are most Lotto winners in bankrupsy within a few years of winning?  

Points to ponder pinky.

NARF!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This is a famous story about C.F. Gauss.
> *


 
Yes this is the problem it still can happen independantly at a different time line  If the student has not had the advantage to learn the summation rules yet. (n(n+1))/2




> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> For admissions, colleges have always tried for diversity: Regional (students from all 50 states and abroad), interests (even at a technical school you have to have people who want to work the student paper, be in band, do sports and student govt., etc.), and so on. There's a value to the students in having some heterogeneity. In many cases such individuals are admitted despite lower test scores--athletes are a well-known case, but if a school has admitted students from 49 states, expect that guy from Anchorage to start looking better all the time. If only three people with an interest in musical instruments apply and the school has a pep band, they're in good shape. Should race be included? I don't know the answer.
> 
> Not everyone appreciates the value of education--especially if they have attended a very bad public school. If the public schools have failed them, they may dismiss further education. Do we owe it to such people to correct that? *



I agree, for a certain sport the college supports or for the band and or music, heck even for students who study a rare subject, yet for Race to be the MAJOR factor, or the deciding factor. Or better yet, teh U uses the following rule's of economics, OUt of Country (* Most Money *), Out of State (* A lot of Money *), Minority, (* Federal Grants *), Every other person, oh yeah did I mention this was a STATE College where our state taxes are to support this school , It is not always fair for almost anyone. Pick your battles and change the system  :asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I think its social...and I think its mostly self-generated.
> Why wont they walk 10 minutes to learn to read?
> Why won't they go to school?  *



It seems obvious to many of us that that's the way to success. However, that message hasn't reached everyone yet, for a variety of reasons. If no one you knew went to college, would you consider it as strong an option? In a very poor neighborhood there's less awareness. More than that, getting into college requires a certain amount of knowledge. Most of us consulted college graduate relatives and neighbors when the time came.

I saw a very convvincing study some years ago that made the case that income was not nearly as good a proxy for college attendance as was _wealth_, defined as something like the total worth of the family, their parents' families, and their grandparents' families. The idea was that even having money didn't provide the idea that college was useful and the practical knowledge of how to apply and get aid (or that sufficient aid would be available).

Here's where affirmative action can help--by seeding various communities with successful graduates who will give evidence that it both can be done and will be beneficial to the individual, and who can provide help in doing it.

Surely some individuals are using the library, etc.--but we're talking about large groups of people, and how to make a difference for those large groups. You focus too much on individual inequities I think without considering the value of having college graduates or more generally professionals seeded throughout all communities rather than 'clustered' in certain areas. That simply exaggerates the inequities as time goes on.

I might add that those who live in poor neighborhoods have worse schools and are at a disadvantage compared to those in richer neighbrohoods. Isn't this unfair to the kids? Is it fair for you to demand that they work harder? As individuals it may behoove them to do so--but doesn't the unfairness bother you? School funding in the U.S. is weighted towards the haves...this is an unfair and unstable situation.

I suspect the claim that 'they' cannot read is exaggerated. One might also ask further about role models in the neighborhood. Kids learn what they see!



> *
> The fact is, education and inititive = success.  The harder and smarter you work, the more likely you will succeed. *



Yes, I agree. But not everyone starts from the same spot. If someone attends a poor school, they're being provided with a worse education. Can you blame some for taking away the message that an education is over-rated? Would it be clear to them that an education is so good?



> *My opinion is, and has been, no matter how much you spend, if folks dont want to get off their asses, you are wasting your money. *



I agree.

Someone who applies to college, or for a job, is taking some initiative--they are trying to do something. Is that money wasted as well?


----------



## J-kid (Jun 2, 2003)

Do you know what is really wrong how they let people into colleges and jobs because of there skin color that is conplete ******** it gos agaist everything this country stands for.

Say i forinstince since i am brown but not enough to be considerd a manority went to a job and i am more quilified then someone else trying to get the same job of me who is a darker skin color.

Lets pretend i worked twice as hard as him/her and am far more skilled.   Now lets say they need 1 manority because of the goverment in the office so should he/she get the job instead of me???????

That is not right and the logic behind it is flawed.  Not only is that being prejetice vs me for being white but it gives someone else special rights over me.


THIS IS not fair and i heard they are trying to get rid of it and i hope they do.:shrug:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 2, 2003)

Just an addition to my previous statement.

Of the 3 schools in that neighborhood, 

1 is a montosori (sp) school.
1 is the performing arts school
1 is a magnet school.

They get a good amount of funding, and especially in the case of the magnet school, they had a computer network in house back in 1983.  (I know..I hacked it.  CTRL-E is your friend.  )
I graduated from there (Jr. Honor Society) in 1984...My sister in 1988. 


Put yourself into this position:
You are an angry young black child.  Your family and friends have 'brainwashed' you with the 'man be keeping us down' tale. You cant read or write because for whatever reason, you haven't logged many hours in a school in the mood to learn.

Will you listen to Ross Perot?  The white guy who looks like a ferengi?  Will you listen to GW Bush?  The guy who looks like the MAD magazine dude?

Probably not.

So, if 'black america' wants to see an end to its problems, then 'black america' needs to step forward and take control of it.

They need to encourage their children and adults to learn to read and write and speak English.

They need to encourage people to care for their homes and neighborhoods.

They need to care for their own.  There are thousands and thousands of sucessful blacks in this country.  Many of them do give back, but many do not.

They need to take pride in themselves and in their work. (I have this same issue with teenagers today).

Too few blacks on the police force?  Get more blacks through school and into the academy.

Too few blacks in office?  Get more of em educated, and on the campaign trail. 

Stop thinking like a 'minority' and start thinking about what a 'majority' effort can do.  

Weither you think you can or think you cant, youre right.  The power of your mind holds you back.  Too many promising young black children fail because they get hit with too many negatives, by their own.  Own what?  Own friends, own family, own 'people' if you will.

I'll be blunt, I'd love to see a black female president.  I've rarely encountered a more potent combination when focus (and pissed).  Add to that an asian VP.  I think the combination would do wonders to reenergize this country, and take it to the next level.  But, make em folks who came up the hardway.  We've tried the 'rich family money' folks....lets try the self-made folks.

:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 2, 2003)

Let's examine, for only a millisecond, the effect of popular culture on the rest of society...

When we pay grown men who play children's games more money than our teachers, we have problems.

When we idolize ex-criminals, and rather than put them behind bars we put them on stage, we have problems.

When we sentence entertainers to a lesser form of punishment because they really sound sincere when they apologize for breaking the law for the 39th time, but crucify the common person for their 1st or 2nd offense, we have problems.

Bottom line - the American Empire, like its ancestor the Roman Empire, is on its down slope.  As with its ancestor, complacency has arisen on the heels of success, and we are rapidly dwindling away without the adherence to the tenets that got us there in the first place.

Let's just stop the social critique at this point and agree that throwing away money by repaying a non-existent debt is about the best we are going to get...  Hearing all the other problems tossed up just makes me want to hang my head in shame by seeing how far we have fallen...  We will never correct half of the ills that have befallen our nation, much less do right by all of our citizens.  We have to just do the best we can by each other for the time being...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *They need to care for their own. *



Aren't they our own too?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Aren't they our own too? *



I'd say yes, but they think differently.

To me, its no different than sending a few billion tons of food over seas.  Sooner or later, you need for them to care for themselves.

The whole 'give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish, and you feed him forever'.

Of course, he still needs to get up, pick up his pole, walk down to the river and put some time in it to see results.

What good is giving him the fish if he never does more than takes the handout?


----------



## chufeng (Jun 2, 2003)

Another analogy is that of "Henny Penny" a story I learned in Kindergarten some 40 years ago:

No one wanted to help Henny Penny plant, water, weed, harvest, or mill the grain...but each was more than willing to eat the bread.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 2, 2003)

Of course, the modern version of this story adds that, "After the man had learned how to fish, he became very excited and went home to teach all of his friends and fellow villagers! But when they went out to fish, the first atoll they visited had been used for a-bomb tests by the French, so they couldn't fish there. When they went to the next atoll, they fished and fished but they caught nothing. After a week, they found out that Red Lobster corporation had been there, and they'd taken  everything. So they decided to try deep-sea fishing, which they'd read about, but it turned out that Japanese long-line tuna boats had taken all those fish too. So, tired and discouraged, they returned back home, only to find that everyone who had lived in their poor, but happy village was gone. They found a note that said everybody had gone to find jobs in the big city in fast-food fish restaurants, except for two families that insisted on staying. They were shot by government-backed death squads, after they refused to sell their ancestral land to a couple of Anglo-American consortium that wanted to harvest the forest's lumber and then open a tuna cannery. This discouraged the fishermen so much that they too went to the big city, where they looked and looked for their families. One was killed in a mugging, and two more caught AIDS, but the last fisherman opened a porno theater in Bangkok, and employed so many 14-year-old children that he became rich and powerful. Till the end of his days, he always told long, nostalgic stories about the good old days and how much he owed the people who had taught him to fish."


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 2, 2003)

ouch.

I detect some sarcasm in there, however......I can see the truth there too.

:asian:


----------



## chufeng (Jun 2, 2003)

Sarcasm? yes...Truth? yes...relevance to this issue? NOT


This post is addressed to anyone who would exploit the system so they don't have to work...regardless of race.


We are not talking about deep sea fishing off of an atoll...it is an analogy used to show how it is better to show someone how to be self-sufficient, rather than relying on others for their every need...the nuclear issue and Long-net issues are topics for other threads.

Relying on others, when you are fully capable of providing for yourself is a drain on EVERYONE...

Relying on others, when you can make significant contributions is LAZY...

Teaching your children to rely on others is a CRIME against everything that a parent ought to do: "raise a productive and responsible citizen." If you don't think being a citizen is a GOOD thing, then go somewhere else...regardless of race...

We may not be perfect, but where else is it better?

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Kirk (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Sarcasm? yes...Truth? yes...relevance to this issue? NOT
> 
> 
> ...





GREAT POST!!!!!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

The teach a man to fish analogy can be fitting. Lets look at what is happening. Until now polititions tried to sweep the race issue under the rug by sending a welfare check. It actualy didn't burden the economy that bad based on percentages; however, this solution created generational welfare. I guess that is the giving the fish part. Now if we aggressivly send prommising black youths through college and allow them to get a foothold in the skilled work force. I call that teaching them to fish. Of course, without a strong moral code most would rather wait for the check. Since this is America we cant let them starve so you make the choice. affirmative action or welfare state. In the mean time your tax dollars will be building more prisons... lots of prisons. Weve got two here in Spokane and we don't even have a large black population.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 2, 2003)

Ok, I think I'm in agreement with you here...

My question is though, -how- do we get them to go?  There are grants available that sit unused each year.  Colleges have 'quotas' on minority students that result in seats being unused due to a lack of applicants.

Let us not forget, to qualify for college, they must first get through highschool, and that seems to be where the problem lies.  Too few are finishing HS, or bothering to get a GED.  Too often, people see the quick $ to be made in the illegal areas, don't weigh the real costs, and each day, we bury more of our future, or lock it away where it gets older and bitterer, but more often than not, not any wiser.

My beliefs is that we need a multiple prong attack.

-upgrade the inferstructure.
-get better teachers and facilities
-ensure the assistance programs are in place.

AND

-give them positive role models they can relate to.

The later needs to come from within.  I doubt highly that the average 'black' teen will identify with Ross Perot.  Les Brown on the other hand, if a better candidate.  We need more Les Browns.

They need a way to keep their identiy while improving themselves.  I just disagree that 'free' money is the way.  A better system needs to be in place all around.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *everything that a parent ought to do: "raise a productive and responsible citizen." *



I tell my children that this is my job and goal in just about those words--but I add in "happy" as well.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 2, 2003)

Oh, sorry, but it's pretty freakin' relevant.

Try this. When I started college, there were all sorts of grants and loans available. I got through college on very little--grad school on even less--but because I had a) a solid family background that pushed learning and books, b) I lived in a nice place with a University down the street, c) there were low-cost loans available, and work-study, and grants, d) the IRS left students alone, I made it. And yes, I worked my tail off--if you can believe that.

The year after I left grad school, the Reagan government changed the IRS regs. Instead of paying no taxes because I was living and working way below the poverty line, my fellow students suddenly got hit with tax bills for 30,000/year incomes--they were taxed as though their tuition and fee-waivers were incomes. Where were they supposed to get the loot? Their actual "take home," pay, incidentally, was between 333 and 667/month, which is what I'd been living on. And I was lucky...my grad school backed everybody up. But now...taxed. Think that doesn't make any difference?

I'm not even getting into the infinity of other things that have made a college education at a decent school harder to obtain. But if y'all actually think it's a meritocracy out there, you're living in a dream world--and it isn't because "they" have all the positions either. 

Learn to fish? sure. Try to find a job fishing, that's the problema...I'm still dying to see some facts, somewhere in all this...basically, I'm seeing a lot of urban legends...

PS: You guys brought up the damn fish thing. I prefer to talk about actual people and material reality, so that folks don't disappear behind truisms and generalizations.


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 2, 2003)

the problem with getting better teachers...

teachers don't want to work in a place where they stand a reasonable chance of getting shot at.

teachers don't want to work in a place that has classrooms but no textbooks or desks.

teachers don't want to work in a place in which the building is condemned, yet the school remains open because there is nowhere else to send the students.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they witness drug deals in the hallways.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they have no support from the parents or the community.

teachers don't want to work in a place where they do more babysitting than educating.

---
Teachers go to these inner city and rural schools when they can't get a job elsewhere.  There are a few idealists who go there willingly, but even they tend to burn out in a few years, or, once they've got experience, transfer to a more pleasant environment.

I read this story in an Education magazine, and thought I'd share.


Teacher Feature... 
The Blueberry Story: The teacher gives the businessman a lesson 

by Jamie Robert Vollmer



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If I ran my business the way you people operate your schools, I wouldn't be in business very long!" 
I stood before an auditorium filled with outraged teachers who were becoming angrier by the minute. My speech had entirely consumed their precious 90 minutes of inservice. Their initial icy glares had turned to restless agitation. You could cut the hostility with a knife. 

I represented a group of business people dedicated to improving public schools. I was an executive at an ice cream company that became famous in the middle1980s when People Magazine chose our blueberry as the "Best Ice Cream in America." 

I was convinced of two things. First, public schools needed to change; they were archaic selecting and sorting mechanisms designed for the industrial age and out of step with the needs of our emerging "knowledge society". Second, educators were a major part of the problem: they resisted change, hunkered down in their feathered nests, protected by tenure and shielded by a bureaucratic monopoly. They needed to look to business. We knew how to produce quality. Zero defects! TQM! Continuous improvement! 

In retrospect, the speech was perfectly balanced - equal parts ignorance and arrogance. 

As soon as I finished, a woman's hand shot up. She appeared polite, pleasant -- she was, in fact, a razor-edged, veteran, high school English teacher who had been waiting to unload. 

She began quietly, "We are told, sir, that you manage a company that makes good ice cream." 

I smugly replied, "Best ice cream in America, Ma'am." 

"How nice," she said. "Is it rich and smooth?" 

"Sixteen percent butterfat," I crowed. 

"Premium ingredients?" she inquired. 

"Super-premium! Nothing but triple A." I was on a roll. I never saw the next line coming. 

"Mr. Vollmer," she said, leaning forward with a wicked eyebrow raised to the sky, "when you are standing on your receiving dock and you see an inferior shipment of blueberries arrive, what do you do?" 

In the silence of that room, I could hear the trap snap. I was dead meat, but I wasn't going to lie. 

"I send them back." 

"That's right!" she barked, "and we can never send back our blueberries. We take them big, small, rich, poor, gifted, exceptional, abused, frightened, confident, homeless, rude, and brilliant. We take them with ADHD, junior rheumatoid arthritis, and English as their second language. We take them all! Every one! And that, Mr. Vollmer, is why it's not a business. It's school!" 

In an explosion, all 290 teachers, principals, bus drivers, aides, custodians and secretaries jumped to their feet and yelled, "Yeah! Blueberries! Blueberries!" 

And so began my long transformation. 

Since then, I have visited hundreds of schools. I have learned that a school is not a business. Schools are unable to control the quality of their raw material, they are dependent upon the vagaries of politics for a reliable revenue stream, and they are constantly mauled by a howling horde of disparate, competing customer groups that would send the best CEO screaming into the night. 

None of this negates the need for change. We must change what, when, and how we teach to give all children maximum opportunity to thrive in a post-industrial society. But educators cannot do this alone; these changes can occur only with the understanding, trust, permission and active support of the surrounding community. For the most important thing I have learned is that schools reflect the attitudes, beliefs and health of the communities they serve, and therefore, to improve public education means more than changing our schools, it means changing America. 

Reprinted with permission from the March 6, 2002 issue of Education Week 

Copyright 2002, by Jamie Robert Vollmer


----------



## chufeng (Jun 2, 2003)

> but I add in "happy" as well.



Good for you !!!

I actually have found a job that I love...it ain't about money, it's about making a difference in someone else's life...it's about being true to my core beliefs...and anyone who can find that job (regardless of what it is) will always be happy.

But, I busted my *** to get here...it didn't happen overnight...it didn't happen in five years...it happened over many years...I set a goal and I focused on accomplishing that goal...evberyone has the same right and ability...I'm not special...but I am an example of what hard work can do, in terms of payoff...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 2, 2003)

Nightengale...

Excellent post..."we can't send our blueberries back..."

So, how do we make a bad blueberries acceptable to the marketplace they will find themselves in?
Not by throwing money at them...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 2, 2003)

> but the last fisherman opened a porno theater in Bangkok, and employed so many 14-year-old children that he became rich and powerful.



???



> Oh, sorry, but it's pretty freakin' relevant.



You got some 'splainin' to do Lucy...

MC,

How does your story relate to today's situation? Your story is full of "victimization" instead of empowerment. Your examples talk of forces no one in this forum can control...

Everyone here would be at a loss to deal with nuclear fallout...
The Longnet fishing is a matter for the government NOT a high-school or entry-level college student...

Where in your post do you show US how to improve the situation? Nowhere...you would have us prolong the "woe is me..." attitude and continue propagating "victims."

Sorry...I completely reject your idea...I think anyone CAN do what he or she wants IF he/she has the balls/intestinal-fortitude to tough it out.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2003)

I know we build blueberry prisons and hire good bluberries to supervise bad blueberries. Nobody votes for reparations but everyone votes to get tough on crime. forget the welfare check lets spend about $50,000 a year per inmate. Infact lets spend a few hundred thousand dollars to execute the really bad blueberries to send a message to all the other blueberries. Everybody seems to be against throwing money at the problem but it seems we already are; however are money goes to the symtoms rather than the cure.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 2, 2003)

ok ToD...so, what is your sollution?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

!. A total revamping of the criminal justice system
2. Free college for all Americans but i'll settle for just the black community.
3. aggressive tageting of problem kindercare... blueberries(white or black) It would be cheaper than building them a cell for adulthood.
4. Pay teachers what they are worth. Lets put corporate welfare where it belongs (in the schools) not in off shore cororate accounts.
5. Start investing in the future instead of staving it off.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 3, 2003)

ok.

I'm with ya so far.  Personally, I'd love to go back to school...much easier if I didnt have to come up with 10k+ to do it.  I know many others who feel similarly.

Any sollution must be equetable (sp) across the board to stay most claims of bias, etc. (There will always be some, but if done right, can be minimized, I think) 


one question.
How would you deal with the high dropout rate in HS?
Putting the best teachers, equipment and facilities in place is not enough.  What must we do to encourage the students to show up, apply themselves, and go the distance?


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2003)

improve school/home communication.

Require parents by law to show up at PTA meetings, and require businesses to give them paid time off to do it.  Run the same school busses that get the kids from home to school to get the parents from home to the meetings and back again. Same for parent teacher conferences.

Make students and parents aware of options and opportunities, and assist them.  Many of these parents have never filled out a loan application... how are they supposed to help their child fill out the FAFSA, bank loan papers, and other forms in order to secure college funding, when many of the parents themselves are functionally illiterate?  

Make parents aware of things such as free adult GED classes.  Encourage the parents to get an education, as well as the students.

A child learns his or her value system from his or her parents. If the parents place little value on education, the child will mimic this.  The trick is to get the parents to value education as an opportunity rather than a burden.


----------



## J-kid (Jun 3, 2003)

Why should just the black commuinity get free college? ToD?

That is racist? what about everyone else>?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Why should just the black commuinity get free college? ToD?
> 
> That is racist? what about everyone else>? *


 
Hey, I'm all for sending you to school too. BELIEVE ME; however, its more racist to sit back and watch the black community fail while we pat ourselves on the back for the trials and tribulations we went through to get where we are.


----------



## J-kid (Jun 3, 2003)

Every one needs to go to school and everyone should have a equal chance no matter what skin color or gender.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Every one needs to go to school and everyone should have a equal chance no matter what skin color or gender. *


So, I gather your happy with the status Quo. Should we just let the chips fall where they may?


----------



## J-kid (Jun 3, 2003)

No i agree some things need to change I believe everyone should start working harder towards the growth of the human race not just towards one race or one country.   We need a uninefied goverment to fix things.  We should be unified as one people!


----------



## fist of fury (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Hey, I'm all for sending you to school too. BELIEVE ME; however, its more racist to sit back and watch the black community fail while we pat ourselves on the back for the trials and tribulations we went through to get where we are. *



So being racist against other races is ok as long as thier not black?


----------



## Cryozombie (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't think sending Blacks to College for free is the answer either.  

How about getting them (and everyone else including spoiled lazy privalaged white kids) INTERESTED in learning in High School???  Get them to graduate, and graduate with an EDUCATION, not just a piece of paper that they cannot read because they were passed to get them out of the system.

Where you go after highschool is up to you.    I have almost NO secondary education beyond highschool and I do pretty well for myself.  Am I rich?  No!  Do I struggle to pay my bills?  Some months. But do i make more than enough to get by?  Yep.  I'm certainly not in danger of getting thrown out on my ***... 

Why?  Not because I got handouts.

I applyed myself for a few years in low level jobs to get experience.  I took that experience and turned it into a better job.  
I dont spend my money on Crack. (Thats's not a black thing BTW, THATS A PEOPLE THING)   
I'm not snorting too much coke to pay my mortgage. 
90% of my pay doesnt go twords alcohol.
I controlled my breeding and I am not paying child support on 10 kids. (My best friend can barley get by because HE has far too much child support to pay.  He is, Incidenatly, College educated and the best job he can get right now is pouring coffee in the local mall.  Not because they arent availible in his area, because he's too LAZY to get any others)

I could go ON and ON and ON But i feel It comes down to "Get a basic Education, and get MOTIVATED" and you CAN and WILL make it.  You can move on to College and MAYBE get a better job, but only if A) You choose the correct field of study, and B) You are motivated to do somthing with it.

Most of my friends are college graduates.  Only 2 work in the fields they went to school for.   

I'm sorry If I am passing on stories of my experiences again... But its what I know, and its in contrast to a lot of what I hear.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 3, 2003)

Oh, all righty then.

Yes, the truism that "everybody should be treated equally and everybody should get an equal chance at an education," is true.
We all agree. Question is, how do we do that?--because anybody who thinks that everybody gets an equal chance right now--or for that matter, a close-to-equal chance--is living in the Bizarro universe.

It's easy to understand why folks think that, though. First, they have it incessantly drummed into their heads by the Powers That Be. Second, they're scared--and they should be--that they and their kids aren't going to get an equal break.

I attended an Ivy League grad school, and believe me--nobody worked harder to get there and stay there. But then, affirmative action kicked in--I didn't go to a good enough Ivy League grad school, and I wasn't rich, and I wasn't the child of academics, and I didn't always say the right things, and the class structure let me know all about it. Still, though, I was lucky and privileged.

If you think that the kids aattending an Ivy League college have exactly the same chance at an education as kids at, say, Compton College--and I've taught at both--you are living in a dream world. I couldn't list all the inequities in a week--and oh yeah, if you think the kids at, say Harvard are automatically smart6er, you are also living in la-la land.

So--what's the proposal for creating what we all agree is fair--a society where everybody gets an equal shot at it, with no guarantee of an equal outcome?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 3, 2003)

If you want a guarentee, buy a toaster.

If you want an education, goto school and apply yourself.

If you want a break, make your own.

If you want fairness, get used to disapointment.

Life isn't fair.  Life is a non-stop series of challenges.  How you respond or react determines your final destination.

Your 'attitude' determines your 'altitude'.

Yes, I realize these are all quotes...but, they have something in common.  They are true, and they come from sucessful people.

Stereotypes need to be fought and defeated. People need to believe that they can 'win'.  We can throw statistics back and forth, point fingers, argue, rant and scream.

Problems still remain, and the questions are still unanswered.

Mr. Robertson, you got through college by busting your ***.  You got where you are by meeting and defeating decks that were stacked against you.  Why didn't you just give up, go home and stew about how unfair it all is?  (Please sir, I'm not attacking you here, so please do not take it as such) My guess (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you had a will to win.  A desire to excell.

So, how do we instill that into our kids today, so that tomorow will be better for them?  How do we get them to 'fight the good fight' as it has been put?  

We can say "give em all this stuff for free, and get out of their way".  Fine.  The fact is that however inadequate, resources are there for their use.  They simply do not bother.  I go to a library in a primarily black neighborhood.  Its one of the neighborhoods in Buffalo thats screaming they dont have oportunities for advancement, yet its got the -best- computer book selection in the entire county.  Why dont they use it?  

I'm sorry, but, I do not understand it.  Educate me.


one sidebar on Harvard - Bill Gates dropped out...wasn't challenged.  At last report, he is still listed as being on a 'leave of absence' after 20+ years.  Just a trivial bit.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 3, 2003)

But I do  sulk at home. Frequently.

And those "quotes"--cliches, actually--come from "successful," businessmen and financiers, who often while away the hours telling the rest of us how and why we should become just like them. Then, once they go broke or get arrested--and they frequently do--they move on to another career--like "motivational speaker," the way Chuck Colson did.

A couple of suggestions about "motivating," kids: a) don't constantly show them that society is filled with hypocrites by rewarding lazy know-nothings like Dan Quayle; b) give them something worth fighting for, not just the Holy God Money.

Oh well.
Thanks,
Robert


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *So being racist against other races is ok as long as thier not black? *


Other races don't have the problems this thread is addressing. That being said. when a black child is born into poverty that child is also an American and when a social phenominon almost guarantees his or her faliure, Americans should feel an outrage that there are people willing to ignore that fellow American.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

> when a social phenominon almost guarantees his or her faliure



What a bunch of crap !!! Well, wait...if my mother and father told me from the day I could suck a nipple that I was destined for failure...if my mother and father told me that everything I did would be harder for me than people with different colored skin...if my mother and father told me that society wanted me to fail...then I guess I would have.

BUT, my mother and father always berated me for not working harder, for not taking school (grade school) more seriously, they always told me of my potential for being better...

...I actually didn't believe them until I brought home an A in high-school in a class that was considered "advanced." I never believed in myself until i saw what my parents had seen all along...

If you want to fill your childrens' heads full of failure, that's your business. But don't blame it on society when they fulfill YOUR dire predictions.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

> Other races don't have the problems this thread is addressing



LIES !!!

Slavery is still alive and well in the Arab nations, in Asian countries,  AND in Africa.
Who's going to pay them reparations?

...and we aren't talking about 4 or 5 generations out from slavery, we're talking RIGHT NOW...but the black community in America does not want to talk about that...

No, people born and raised in this country have EVERY opportunity to succeed...to listen to the lies of Reverend Jesse Jackson (where does he preach, anyways?) or Al Sharpton...or Charles Rangel, who created a lie to (Tawany Brawley) use the race card to further his political career, is a recipe for the status quo. Those who cry "society owes us" are the ones who are keeping a group of people down...everyone else is saying...work hard and realize your potential...

You choose...the easy handout, or the road to real freedom.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 3, 2003)

Uh...excuse me, but I'm reading stuff that gets pretty close to saying that every black person in America is a lazy follower of Al Sharpton?

Sigh. What a silly discussion this has become. Fifty lashes with a wet noodle, and mandatory reading of Cornel West's several-year-old "Race Matters," which offers scant comfort for either conservatives (hold on...wait for it) or liberals.

Sheesh, guys. Existentially speaking, of course we have to behave as if material and social reality were not there; otherwise, as some point out, we sit home weeping. However, we also have to behave in a fashion consistent with reality, in which (if you will but look) it remains pretty damn clear that race (that old, stupid fantasy!) and class (still around, kids...scope out Harvard Yard) and gender (but of course, now women want to be, "too equal," runs the dopey complaint) are very much still out there. 

I say, like the Gil Scott-Heron song, "I want my forty acres and a mule." Hell, this country's been paying off on being white, male and Christian (at least in name) for some three hundred years. Give 'em the forty acres and a mule. If we can pay for the idiotic  B-2 bomber, why not?

It's interesting to see folks sticking up for the privileges of those--and yes, I mean the upper classes--who probably wouldn't slow down on the highway if they ran over one of us. I'm fascinated, really--why?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *LIES !!!
> 
> Slavery is still alive and well in the Arab nations, in Asian countries,  AND in Africa.
> ...



Your right, Countries like Kuait did end slavery in 1962 blah, blah ,blah; however the last time I checked they weren't Americans. So, why are you bringing them up. I'm sure any malcontents will be executed if the Arabs feel any backlash. They got it covered. Now back to our discussion... proceed.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

MCR,

Nowhere did I say that every black person was a Lazy Follower Of Al Sharpton...

I said that those who follow HIS line of thinking will always be looking for a handout...and THAT is the road to the "status quo."

I have much more respect for Malcolm X who told the black community to pick itself up by the bootstraps and take responsibility for its own condition...he used examples of the GREAT black people from Africa...he sacred a lot of white folks back in the 60s...but his message was much healthier than Sharpton's or Jackson's...and Malcolm was a racist who believed in the separation of races...that part of his message, I do not think is healthy.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

> Your right, Countries like Kuait did end slavery in 1962 blah, blah ,blah;



Interesting how you left out the ACTIVE slavery going on in Africa.
and HOW you want to focus this only on a very samll segment of a very large society...NO, maybe it gets down to what YOU want to get out of the reparations movement...YOU want a check from people that had nothing to do with slavery...and it is a sure bet you weren't a slave...nor your mother or father...Just because you have more melanin than I do, you want a check...that seems a bit racist...your comments earlier about making college free for blacks sort of confirms it...

My friend from Kenya frequently talks about the blacks in this country...he says he is offended by the use of the term "African-American" because not one of his black friends were born in Africa and have NO real idea what it is like in Africa. He also says that the language barriers (ebonics) are self-imposed (by the way, his English is excellent)...that the "victim" mentality drags down the entire black community.

Bottom line...if you want something, work for it...
If you are being mistreated, bring the dipshit to justice...(I am not ignoring the facty that prejudice exists)
If you are looking for excuses, ...you fill in the blank...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 3, 2003)

I am a white guy from the lower middle/middle middle class part of ethnically segregated South Omaha.  I had the deck stacked against me by societal statistics - according to what I was taught in Sociology class, I should have been in and out of Juve Hall, in and out of the local lock up, and hooked on some form of drug by now...

Amazingly, because I dug in my heels and absolutely refused to give in to peer pressure (something I get a real kick out of when folks complain about how hard that is to do - weak minds give in, strong ones don't), refused to break the law as so many of my peers did on a regular basis, and stuck to learning in school rather than wasting time futzing around on the diamond, field or court, I have managed to be the most successful person in my family.

I am the only career military person in my family.  I am one of only two that have higher education.  I am the only one that has broken out of blue collar labor (not saying that that work is bad - it is honest, hard labor, but it is certainly less respected than other professions) into a professional career.  I do not drink, smoke nor use illegal, controlled substances (nor have I, ever).

So what happened?

Those who argue that society oppresses are those who argue for their own limitations.  They want desperately to hold onto the ability to lay the blame elsewhere because accepting responsibility for their own lives takes away the cushion for failure.  If they fail, then it is them and only them who must accept the responsibility for it.

Success.  Like Nike says, Just Do It.  Or don't.  Either way, the decision lays firmly in the lap of the individual.  Last time I checked, society wasn't a person that held a gun to my head and forced me to drink, take drugs, get pregnant as a teen, commit crimes, drop out of school, etc.  Those are all the decisions of individuals.  There are plenty of excuses for their having made those decisions, but ultimately the choices were those of the individual.  Can't blame society for little Sally wanting to be more popular - it was her choice to smoke the pot and hump the entire football team, ultimately being impregnated by one of them and having to drop out of school to support the baby by turning tricks on the wrong side of the tracks.  Can't blame society for little Billy wanting to be accepted by his buddies - it was his choice to boost the car while drinking underage and end up running that station wagon off the road killing the family with three small children.

Individual choices.  With the freedom to make them comes the responsibility for their consequences.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

What he said....................

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2003)

Race isn't a factor in school success....

Socioeconomic status is.

The less money you have, the less likely you are to succeed in school.  

This is for many reasons, these among them:

1.  school money comes largely from local property taxes and fundraising (California has changed this...all taxes are placed in a general fund and distributed to schools equally, but this is not the case in most states, and hasn't accomplished a lot in California...now ALL the schools have funding issues.) ... if the property values are low, property taxes are low, and if the community doesn't have a lot of money to begin with, fundraisers don't do a whole lot of good.  The school doesn't have the money for things like textbooks and teachers, aides, and extracurricular activity programs such as clubs and athletic programs which keep kids off the streets in the afternoons.  Schools that are underfunded don't have access to new textbooks and new technology.  They also don't have access to money to maintain their buildings.  Its hard to learn when the ceiling is falling down on you and your textbooks are full of bookworms (this actually happened in my own classroom...hard to teach when your students are having worm races across the desks).

2.  students are less likely to have a quiet place to study or do homework.  If several families are crowded into a small apartment, there's barely room to sleep, much less study.

3.  its hard to think about homework when you're trying to figure out where your next meal is coming from and caring for your younger siblings because your parents work the night shift.

4.  If your parents don't know how to read well, they can't teach you the basics when you're little... how many of us had parents or babysitters who read to us?  Also, how can they read any notices the student brings home?

Students from economically disadvantaged areas start out with much less than students from middle class neighborhoods.  We need to stop worrying about making everything equal and start worrying about making it EQUITABLE.  Slavery reparitions are not the way to do this.  Handing someone money isn't going to help.  They'll spend it, its gone, that's it.... The way to do this would be to take that money and INVEST it in the community. Build more libraries and ADVERTIZE the programs available.  Build more adult schools and have classes at more times.  Encourage the parents to get an education.  Give hazardous duty bonuses to teachers in high violence areas to encourage them to stay rather than get their year or two experience and leave for greener pastures.  Look at the few schools in these areas that are working and figure out why. Implement these programs at other schools.  Personally, I'd like to see all of us human beings stop admiring the problem and start working towards a solution.  I'd like to see us stop asking what the government can do, what the schools can do, and what other people can do, and start asking ourselves what can WE do?  What can each one of us, as individuals do to make a difference?  


Respectfully,

Nightingale

PS, before someone asks me what I'm doing to help with the problem, I spend time each semester volunteering in my university's literacy lab, helping inner city children use technology to improve their reading skills.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

Nightengale,

Although much of your post shows the "stumbling blocks" to a good start...it is important to keep in mind that one man's stumbling block is another man's stepping stone...

I see a lot of EXCUSES in your post...where are the remedies...

More of the woe is me crap...

I grew up in a three bedroom ranch style house that was probably < 1500 square feet...I had four brothers...that's seven people crowded into a very small space...I managed to get my homework done, despite the distractions...I don't buy the excuses...

Even an illiterate parent who REALLY cares will find a way.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

The excuses don't wash...

Many successful paople come from "disadvantaged" backgrounds.
Kaith pointed out that haviing an excellent facility located in the hood doesn't seem to make much difference.

The solution lies within the community that claims to be a victim...if that community does not choose to emphasize the important things, then another generation of "give me my welfare check" people will grow out of it...

IT DOES NOT TAKE A VILLAGE...despite what Hillary Clinton (not a friend to blacks or jews, btw) says...it takes a dedicated parent (preferably two parents) to raise a productive citizen.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 3, 2003)

I'm going to bow out of this discussion....

I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist, and that has not been my intent. 

Good day.
:asian: 

-Bob


----------



## Kirk (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *it takes a dedicated parent (preferably two parents) to raise a productive citizen.*



That's one thing that we can do as a society.  Despite my own
"hardships" (my hardships would be some people's heaven), my
mom was home when I got there.  Modern days haven't been
kind to allowing that, financially.  It baffles me ... the advent of
computers and automation have allowed for more work to get
done in a 40 hour work week, yet more people feel that have to
go to work to provide for their family.  If as a country, we all
decided that one member, father or mother would stay home to
take care of the family's needs ... and 1 person in each 2 income
family all quit their jobs ... salaries would go through the roof,
allowing once again for a parent to be available 24-7.  It'd never
happen, but it would be the beginings of a possible solution.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

> I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist



Well of course you are...you expect someone to actually be responsible for his/her own life...how unfair...

I am no bigot...I am no racist...BUT I will point out where some people can improve themselves (regardless of race)...

My wife and I considered adopting a black child in college...the college Equal Opportunity counsellor advised us against it (he was Black)...he said we wouldn't be able to adequately provide the proper "cultural" education for the child...what that meant, I'm not sure...when i confronted him on it, he said, "you won't even know how to cut his hair."

Excuse me...but it seems that the "cultural" education this "counsellor" was referring to was that of "Black rights." whaterver that means...A child is born into this world a blank slate(mostly) yet, a mixed race couple would be inappropriate parents for a black child? Why? Certainly it is not related to African heritage...most black folks don't even know what that means (REALLY)...but I do think it is about keeping a group of people isolated from the world (a world where hard work pays off)...

Jesse Jackson talks about the Rainbow Coalition...but it seems his rainbow is limited in its color scheme...

Idealogically, I am 100% for a Real Rainbow Coalition...but that is not what this debate is about...is it? This debate is about why some people can claim prejudice (even when it does not exist, except perhaps in the reverse order) and can claim their social upbringing as an excuse fro poor performance in school.


I'm getting very tired of this debate...those who understand the problem need no further convincing...those who will be victims, will always be victims.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Nightengale,
> 
> Although much of your post shows the "stumbling blocks" to a good start...it is important to keep in mind that one man's stumbling block is another man's stepping stone...
> ...




There were several remedies listed in the second half of my post. Did you read it all? 

And yes, one man's stumbling stone is another man's stepping stone, but that first implies that the man has two legs with which to stand.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 3, 2003)

> And yes, one man's stumbling stone is another man's stepping stone, but that first implies that the man has two legs with which to stand.



...and when that leg was cut out by a parent who chooses victimhood over liberation...who do you blame? Society?

Your acknowledgement that there are VICTIMS is one of the worse forms of prejudice...let a child KNOW that he can do whatever he wants if he is willing to apply himself...
Let a child know that people are there to support her, even in the small failures...
Let a child know that skin color doesn't matter...it is what is on the inside...

The black people do not need the white people to be successful.
The individual must really believe in his/her inherant abilities...and a teacher/mentor/big brother or sister should emphasize the positive, NOT the negative.

...and yes I did read the rest of your post and I agree with most of it...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2003)

I shouldnt open my mouth again but, hey....

How can the 'group' as a whole be motivated to do so?

How do we improve the group?

People say 'education', 'positive self image', 'motivation', 'belief'. etc, but these all start with the individual.

I've been told I focus too much on the individuals plight, and not the 'group'.  But what is a group but many individuals?

How can we focus many individuals towards taking the group higher?

Some will say, what is one person?

1 person had a dream...
and one person created a nightmare.

1 person can change the world.  1 person can make the difference.  By each and every small step, we create ripples that can create larger and greater waves, eventually, with enough effort we can move mountains.

The power of one, becomes the power of many.  That will lead to the changes we all seek, in a way that benifits us all.

I wont see it.  Too many close-minded people who only want their cut, and the hell with those outside their view. I pity those who cant see the big picture.  Too narrow a viewpoint dooms us to repeat the mistakes of the past, as, we cant see them.


I read about people who lived in a hell I cant imagine...who created good lives for themselves.

I read about people who traveled thousands of miles, risked death, pain and worse...all for a chance.

I read about a man who became a master of martial arts...even though he is blind.

etc. etc. etc.

But, always it comes back to 'you dont understand'.

Let me ask this question:
What will giving reparations solve?
Lets say every black family (with verifiable slave ancestory) gets $10,000.
We give em all a nice 1,000 sqrft home.
We open the colleges for free to all blacks with a highschool or GED.

We still have a problem here...
You -still- have not answered the question on -how- we get their asses into the seats in the grade schools and high schools so that the can -qualify- for the college education.

Do we also add a dual grading requirement?
Whites must get a 75%+, but blacks are allowed to pass at 35%? 
Hell, I dont want a doctor who got a 75 in diagnosing whatever Im there for....

Will all these 'perks', discounts, benifits really resolve anything?  Will it stop the prejudice?

I think it would only increase it even more.  More resentment for legistated inequality.

And then, where would we really be?

-Bob


----------



## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I read about people who lived in a hell I cant imagine...who created good lives for themselves.*



You read about them because they were the exceptions, and hence worth writing books about. No one writes books about the hundred who folded up and lived unhappy lives for every one you cite. Looking to the indidviual is an optimistic thing but it's also an Objectivist thing--everyone for him- or herself. Some fold for lack of will and some fight against insurmountable odds and--well--fail to surmount them.

If it as you in that situation, perhaps you'd fight and win--great! But the "cycle of poverty" is real. Parents who were beaten down by the world--possibly in days when they could legally be not hired because of their skin color--may pass on that pessimism to their children, who learn that rather than the fact that school/college will save them. (Heck, joining the service would be a great start in many cases.) _They don't agree that education is the route, because for them that hasn't been the case_. It's hard to convince them that things have changed. Seeding their communities with a few of their own children as physicians, lawyers, engineers, pharmacists, professors, teachers, etc., etc., etc.--including community college level tradesman like drafter/designers and mechanics and such--could help reverse this!

Is it worth it? Is there a certain fairness to it?

What if you had been rasied hearing these stories: "My great-grandfather was a slave...my grandfather was a sharecropper, little better--my father couldn't get a decent job because they didn't accept 'coloreds' and so worked as a gas station attendant for 40 years, where he was treated with little respect...and I wasn't allowed to attend the state college and had lots of doors closed to me when applying for jobs so I stayed in this neighborhood and opened a small barber shop." What part of that screams, "college is the path for you, son" to this kid? No one else did it--much pessimism and distress is associated with trying--_that's_ what needs to be countered. People who learn this at a yound age won't be likely to try the path(s) you mention.



> I've been informed that all I'm doing is presenting myself as a bigoted racist, and that has not been my intent.



I know Kaith in person and he certainly isn't prejudiced--he treats everyone with respect. His message here is the same as the way he treats people in real life: Judging them on the basis of their actions.


----------



## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

> Will all these 'perks', discounts, benifits really resolve anything? Will it stop the prejudice?



One hopes it'll help with both the prejudice and the poverty.

I believe that the key is early intervention in the schools. But without parental support it's hard going, and parental support isn't always there.

It's not an easy problem, but "pull yourself up by your own boostraps" isn't a solution. Changing the fact that rich neighborhoods have good schools and poor neighborhoods have not-so-good schools is a start--it's the Holy Grail, to my mind.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 4, 2003)

Let me just note that Arnisador and Nightingale rock on this issue.

Have one member of each two-income household give up their job? Let me guess--the woman, thus also solving that pesky problem of women who wish to be treated as human beings and have their own jobs? 

Guys, what planet are you on? Is this sort of thing even vaguely possible? Sure, in a rational society--like Norway or Denmark (high taxes! quasi-socialism!)--where they give more than lip service to supporting families.

Let's ask the question in two ways: 1) why argue for clearly-impractical and unrealistic solutions? And I mean "why:" what motivates such argument? and 2) what would be the martial arts approach to such matters?

Sorry to go all old-fashioned, but isn't martial arts study--in the end--all about self-improvement, and help for others? It seems to me that studying has taught me more and more compassion even if I haven't listened--so am I supposed to throw all that out the window, and take the approach of, "well, do it for yerself, or screw ye, buddy."

By the way, I was very happy to see somebody put the finger on the Objectivist/Ayn Rand claptrap that serves as some of the ideological underpinning for these arguments. Groovy.

Robert


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2003)

A martial arts solution?

based on the many schools I've been privilaged to train in, I say this:

one person leads the way, others follow. Along the journey, the group with the leaders help begins to help themselves. Some parts of the group excel at certain things.  Those of the group that apply themselves tend to progress at a faster pace than those who only are there casually.  Resources are provided for the betterment of all.

Case in point.  There was guy at my current school who started 3 months after I did.  He is now 2 belt ranks ahead of me.  Why?  He was at the school 4 nights a week.  I was there 2.  He hit every class he could, and I took a few months off here, and a few there.  2 years later, he's just shy of 3 belts higher.  He applied himself, and I didnt.  But, I dont begrudge him his sucess, and we help each other 'debug'.

How could this work in the real world?
A member of the group must return to the group to be a leader, a role model as it were.  The group must then use the available resources to progress.  If the resources are inadequete for the task at hand, new ones must be obtained.  This can be thru loans, grants, endouments, etc.

This group then must serve as the leader for the community.  and the community as a role model to the greater.  etc.

But.  It all starts with one.  One person must have the vision, and the tenasity to go the distance.  We have these people among us today.  They need to get their messages out better.



:asian:


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Interesting how you left out the ACTIVE slavery going on in Africa.
> and HOW you want to focus this only on a very samll segment of a very large society...NO, maybe it gets down to what YOU want to get out of the reparations movement...YOU want a check from people that had nothing to do with slavery...and it is a sure bet you weren't a slave...nor your mother or father...Just because you have more melanin than I do, you want a check...that seems a bit racist.
> chufeng *



 I see you have decided that I'm black and have some stake in the reparations issue and decided to attack me personaly. I hate to break it to you but I'm white. You have decided that because slavery exists in uncontroled parts of the world that it has something to do with the current African American experience or even this post. I'll bite, are slaves in other nations American Tax payers? Do are Laws or beliefs effect them? It is effecting us?
I don't mean to offend you but I can totaly understand why you were not given the opportunity to raise a black child. You could fill his head with your interesting ideas and the first time that poor kid opens his mouth it will offend a black people, thus alienating him. Are you going to keep him sheltered or let him learn the hard way? Because its all the hard way in that situation.


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 4, 2003)

Take a look at the success stories, the ones you hear about... the ones with people born in the ghetto who go to Harvard...the ones who made it to the top.  I'll bet you EVERY ONE of them had a mentor of some kind who was already a few rungs higher on the socioeconomic ladder.  Be it a teacher, a relative, a church group leader, someone who took that person in hand and assisted them.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Take a look at the success stories, the ones you hear about... the ones with people born in the ghetto who go to Harvard...the ones who made it to the top.  I'll bet you EVERY ONE of them had a mentor of some kind who was already a few rungs higher on the socioeconomic ladder.  Be it a teacher, a relative, a church group leader, someone who took that person in hand and assisted them. *



If your suggesting we start having the white community raise the children of the black community I doudt the Idea would be excepted by the black community which incidently is why Chufeng had such a hard time. When there are more black children up for adoption than qualified black families can accomodate then exceptions are reluctantly made. I have no first hand Knowlege but I imagine mixed race couples have preference over a white or non black mixed race families.


----------



## Zujitsuka (Jun 4, 2003)

This is a very, very controversial issue.

There are a ton of opinions regarding the reparations issue.  I can not speak for all black people born in the USA who are descended from slaves, but to me, it is not about the money.

"Why?" you may ask...

My ancestors would roll in their graves if I accepted blood-money - they may have been bought on the auction block, but I have a choice in this matter and I cannot be bought - I'm not a prostitute for sale.  Quite frankly, one cannot put a price tag on what was done.

Also, if you give the AVERAGE PERSON (black, white, yellow, etc.) a ton of free money, they will squander it.  The average joe is easily seduced by advertisers and buy into the "You just got to have this.", or "All of the big dogs, drive this," etc.  Give the average person more money, all that they'll have is more problems.

Nor do I want any other group's pity - I do not have a victim's mentality.  I have a success mentality.  My people survived  one of the most brutal and oppressive systems ever devised.  I am proud that I spring from such strong stock.  

What was perpetrated against Africans bought to this country and their decendants was shameful, and needs to be publicly stated - the way President Clinton confessed and apologized for the atrocities committed against black men in the south during the 1930's "Tuskeegee Experiment" where poor, uneducated blacks in Alabama were intentionally injected with syphillus just to see what would happen to them and how long they would live.  This was in fact a government experiment.  The bad thing about President Clinton's public apology is that I bet most of you never heard about it as it wasn't "big news."  The media was more concerned with Monica Lewinsky.

As a tax paying black man who also served his country in the Army, all that I want is for the United States government to do:

o Publicly admit to the international community that what was done was wrong

o Include the history of slavery in the educational curriculum as part of American and global history (the way the Jewish Holocaust is covered is a good model).

o Set up a museum and a monument/memorial in Washington, D.C.

o Have a day of observance/remembrance/holiday.

This will be a step in the right direction so that we can all work together and help this country live up to its promise and potential.

Peace & blessings,


----------



## Kirk (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *As a tax paying black man who also served his country in the Army, all that I want is for the United States government to do:
> 
> o Publicly admit to the international community that what was done was wrong
> ...



The only thing I could argue about in your entire post is ... why
Washington D.C???  Everyone wants a museum/monument
there.  :asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The only thing I could argue about in your entire post is ... why
> Washington D.C???  Everyone wants a museum/monument
> there.  :asian: *



Probably because the more meaningful monuments go there.  The memorial wall for the vietnam KIAs for example.

I think Zujitsuka has some good ideas.  


A note on 2 of the sucessful black entreponuers (sp) that I mentioned:
George Halsey made it in the Amway system.  He did have a mentor and a support system. Two keys here is that someone gave him a chance, and he took it. 

Les Brown also has support.  His adoptive mother was a big influence, as well as a teacher and some friends.  Alot of what he did he did on his own drive though it seems.

Purhaps the key here is that someone, anyone held out something that many lack. Hope.

Every motivational story I've read has had some outside source offering encouragement, support and a push at some point.  I've never to my recolection read of a totally independent 'self made man'.  

As to the adoptions, if we believe we are all equal, then the only reason for rejection is racism.  Things like hair care, etc can be looked up or found through outside sources.  Ask a barber.  

If descrimination one way is bad, why is it ok the other way?


What I'd like to know ToD, is why you keep playing the race card and seem to be making so many unfounded assumptions every time someone says something?  You called me a racist, yet it seems to me it is you who are posting the more bigoted side of things.

-Bob


----------



## chufeng (Jun 4, 2003)

Thank you Mr. Turner.

:asian: 
chufeng


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *If your suggesting we start having the white community raise the children of the black community I doudt the Idea would be excepted by the black community which incidently is why Chufeng had such a hard time. When there are more black children up for adoption than qualified black families can accomodate then exceptions are reluctantly made. I have no first hand Knowlege but I imagine mixed race couples have preference over a white or non black mixed race families. *



Please note:  I never said anything about race.  You did.  I merely stated that for someone to have the motivation to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and get out of the ghetto, they are usually given a helping hand from someone who's already out.  Are you implying that there are no successful minorities capable of mentoring?


----------



## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I think Zujitsuka has some good ideas.  *



Yes, agreed.



> *Purhaps the key here is that someone, anyone held out something that many lack. Hope.*



Yes--meaning they were prepared when the door of opportunity opened for them.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jun 4, 2003)

Nice point...after all, there are reparations and then there are reparations, and maybe part of the thing to do is to say that mere money can never repay what was done to people in the name of the Holy God Capital (with, to be sure, a lot of pious hypocrisy covering up what was going on), and make reparations by other means.

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## Kirk (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *Please note:  I never said anything about race.  You did.  I merely stated that for someone to have the motivation to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and get out of the ghetto, they are usually given a helping hand from someone who's already out.  Are you implying that there are no successful minorities capable of mentoring? *



Yes!!!!!!!  A hand up, not a hand out.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2003)

What I'd like to know ToD, is why you keep playing the race card and seem to be making so many unfounded assumptions every time someone says something?  You called me a racist, yet it seems to me it is you who are posting the more bigoted side of things.

-Bob [/B][/QUOTE] 
The tuth is I took a criminal justice course for a semester in college. I can argue this issue all day long. Touche' on the racist name calling now we are even. I understand I'm on a complaint list now; so, let me know when I've gone to far. I guarantee you though I'm not just Knee jerking on what people are posting. I've most likely studied and been tested on said subject. And once again I am not in support of just mailing a check to black families.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2003)

Naw, no complaint list (that I'm aware of).  My posts have been my own opinion, not MT's.  I think I've gotten several directed at me though.  No worries.  Hey, for as -hot- as this and the related subjects can get, I'm glad this threads stayed as calm as it has been.  Maybe we disagree, but, its been in a civil manner.

:asian: 

-Bob


----------



## Jill666 (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *The bad thing about President Clinton's public apology is that I bet most of you never heard about it as it wasn't "big news."
> *



It was huge news- in my area anyway- I watched the conference and cried. However, when I mentioned it to my mother some time later, she had no idea what the Tuskegee experiment was, and didn't believe that could have happened. I told her to look it up.
:shrug:


----------

