# Why You Never Use 2 hands to Disarm a Knife



## Hawke

Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.

Part 1




Part 2





What are your thoughts?  Has anyone seen a 2 hand disarm fast enough to work?  Can you post a YouTube link of an efficient knife disarm?

Thanks.

(I still like some of the moves here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )


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## thardey

Trying to disarm a knife empty handed is dangerous, period. There's no safe way to do it.

As far as his alternative -- defense playing around with parries just increases the time that you're in lethal range - his partner is hanging out in the absolute worst range for a knife attack. You can tell that the partner is trying to back out of range, but is trying to stay in frame for the camera -- he isn't comfortable there, either.

Either get in and knee the guy as hard as you can, as many times as you can, or get out of there. Don't play around with "dueling" against a knife - empty handed or not.

Some people have noticed that in grappling there's a counter to every move, if you catch the right opportunity. It's the same with knives. There isn't a disarm technique out there that someone can't come up with a counter for, if you react quickly enough. But personally, I would rather take a hit from a fist than from a blade.


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## Steel Tiger

thardey said:


> Trying to disarm a knife empty handed is dangerous, period. There's no safe way to do it.
> 
> As far as his alternative -- defense playing around with parries just increases the time that you're in lethal range - his partner is hanging out in the absolute worst range for a knife attack. You can tell that the partner is trying to back out of range, but is trying to stay in frame for the camera -- he isn't comfortable there, either.
> 
> Either get in and knee the guy as hard as you can, as many times as you can, or get out of there. Don't play around with "dueling" against a knife - empty handed or not.
> 
> Some people have noticed that in grappling there's a counter to every move, if you catch the right opportunity. It's the same with knives. There isn't a disarm technique out there that someone can't come up with a counter for, if you react quickly enough. But personally, I would rather take a hit from a fist than from a blade.


 
Knives are dire, there is no doubt about that.  Personally,  if unarmed against a blade I prefer to give the guy something to think about besides his knive.  Usually intense pain.

One hand or two hand disarms, either way doesn't matter, as Thardey said, you can't play about.  Get in close and slam 'em hard.  Get them thinking about other things.  Or run, if you can.  Simple as that.


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## MA-Caver

I read somewhere about a DI in the army who was instructing his recruits about knife to empty hand combat. I remember this article very clearly because it was my first real introduction to knife fighting. I must've been about 8-10 yrs old. 
The instructor was using a real (sharpened) knife. He must've wanted his recruits to actually think about how dangerous it was. He had a recruit come at him with a knife and try to stab him. A couple of moves later the recruit was lying on the ground groaning in pain and the instructor was bleeding from his hand. His words to his recruits stayed with me (not that I actually followed them) "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..." 
This got me thinking. Presumably in a desperate life or death fighting situation you may end up having to do that. BUT! I would think as a last minute resort. There are other ways (as the instructor of the above videos have shown) how to combat a knife unarmed without risking yourself getting cut/stabbed. 
I've seen knife fights and have been in one... got a good 4 inch scar on my right forearm to show for it...though it's fading with age. I was fortunate that it was not _that_ deep of a cut. 
The video instructor definitely understands that the use of two hands is risky and even foolhardy. Yet it all depends upon who's wielding the knife doesn't it? If it's a trained or experienced knife fighter then yes that combatant is going to know that he can use one hand with the knife to threaten and distract and use the other hand to disable long enough to use the knife as intended. 
An un-trained fighter however is going to try and use the knife and only the knife (in my experience). Grab that and they do as the instructor showed as fiction, try to wrest the knife away so that they can use it. 
Basically as I see it, if the knife person is going to use his two hands to try and break free from your ONE handed grip you got the free hand to bash HIS face in... there's also the feet as well as hands for weapons. 
This of course is where knife defense training in (any) Martial Arts comes in handy.


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## Steel Tiger

MA-Caver said:


> I read somewhere about a DI in the army who was instructing his recruits about knife to empty hand combat. I remember this article very clearly because it was my first real introduction to knife fighting. I must've been about 8-10 yrs old.
> The instructor was using a real (sharpened) knife. He must've wanted his recruits to actually think about how dangerous it was. He had a recruit come at him with a knife and try to stab him. A couple of moves later the recruit was lying on the ground groaning in pain and the instructor was bleeding from his hand. His words to his recruits stayed with me (not that I actually followed them) "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..."
> This got me thinking. Presumably in a desperate life or death fighting situation you may end up having to do that. BUT! I would think as a last minute resort. There are other ways (as the instructor of the above videos have shown) how to combat a knife unarmed without risking yourself getting cut/stabbed.
> I've seen knife fights and have been in one... got a good 4 inch scar on my right forearm to show for it...though it's fading with age. I was fortunate that it was not _that_ deep of a cut.
> The video instructor definitely understands that the use of two hands is risky and even foolhardy. Yet it all depends upon who's wielding the knife doesn't it? If it's a trained or experienced knife fighter then yes that combatant is going to know that he can use one hand with the knife to threaten and distract and use the other hand to disable long enough to use the knife as intended.
> An un-trained fighter however is going to try and use the knife and only the knife (in my experience). Grab that and they do as the instructor showed as fiction, try to wrest the knife away so that they can use it.
> Basically as I see it, if the knife person is going to use his two hands to try and break free from your ONE handed grip you got the free hand to bash HIS face in... there's also the feet as well as hands for weapons.
> This of course is where knife defense training in (any) Martial Arts comes in handy.


 
Some good, strong points about knife fighting here.  I always tell my students that when facing a knife they have to be prepared to get cut, like the instructor mentioned was, if that is what it takes to gain control of the situation.


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## MA-Caver

Steel Tiger said:


> Some good, strong points about knife fighting here.  I always tell my students that when facing a knife they have to be prepared to get cut, like the instructor mentioned was, if that is what it takes to gain control of the situation.


Thank you... but of course at all costs avoid getting cut in the first place as that is to be your last resort. :uhyeah:


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## tellner

My experience is very limited compared to some of the lurkers, cops, soldiers and guys with hard lives here who haven't just "seen the elephant" but have opened concession stands in the freakin' Elephants' Graveyard. But I've picked up a couple things and had to deal with people who had knives a couple times...


There are no good places to get cut. There are some places that suck beyond human comprehension to get cut. The outsides of the forearms and shins suck somewhat less than anywhere else
Don't go empty hand against a knife. Have a weapon of some sort. A 2x4 makes a dandy weapon.
If you don't have a weapon you're in a bad way
But don't despair and never give up
If you screw around in the middle distance you will die. You need to be in very, very close or well outside his reach.
Get control of the knife arm quicker than humanly possible.
Once you do, cause massive amounts of damage. There is no such thing as excessive force in a situation like this.
Blood and sweat are slippery.
Nobody does just one big attack. Be ready for the knife to change directions and for repeated attacks.
Remember what I said about control.
A really good guy with a knife won't let you see it first. He'll just stab you.
Try not to get people like that mad at you.
If someone is showing you the knife it's a threat. He might kill you a second from now, but just at this moment he's trying to impress you or get you to do something. Drop socks and grab, err, whatever comes to hand and use that precious second to _*do something*_. Attack. Get control. Run away. Shoot him between the dies. But don't waste a moment.
Be ready for the other knife.
Kicking the knife out of the hand or plucking the hand out of the air with a perfect wrist lock is a nice fantasy. The chances are right up there with the Olsen Twins showing up at my house and offering me $20 million and tag-team adult intimacy.
A lot of time getting cut or stabbed doesn't register at the time. Sometimes it feels cold. Sometimes it feels like you were punched.
Don't worry if you do get cut or stabbed. Deal with the guy and then worry about the red stuff coming out. You only have so much blood pressure. Use that time wisely.
Once he's not a threat use your QuikClot, field dressing, compressed gauze, one-hand tourniquet and Steri-strips as appropriate. You don't carry at least two of those with you? Consider it. They aren't expensive and are infinitely cheaper than bleeding out.
Ladies, between the ages of 13 and your mid 40s you generally carry around something that is sterile, absorbent and perfect for stopping bleeding. Carry a spare or two.
The Indonesians have a saying "When two men fight with knives the loser is ash, but the winner is charcoal."
There's no shame in being afraid of going up against a guy with a knife. If you're nonchalant and blase about it you are ignorant, suicidal, crazy, delusional or so good that you aren't spending time on Martial Talk. The fear is your friend as long as you use the powers it gives you to tear the mofo's head off and beat him to death with it.
Have I missed anything?


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## tellner

Oh yeah. _*At all costs*_ avoid the "Dead Man's Position". That's where he's got an empty hand forward and the knife back where you can't get at it. If you find yourself there get the hell out of Dodge.


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## Fang

"Blood and sweat are slippery. "

Yes AND blood is warm to the touch, if you get cut above the eyes knife or not it may distract you. I dont know much about knife combat, in fact i know very little but i have been cut above the eyes extensively with regular punches and metal equalizers. Be ready for that warmth of the blood and don't let it send you into a state of panic. Blood is very slick until it turns pulpy be very aware of that like tellner said...


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## Brian R. VanCise

There are simply, *no absolute's*!  What might work in one situation will fail in another.

I actually like quite a bit of Barry's work he has some good sound ideas and overall appears that his knowledge is good.  However, like in any video things do not get explained or shown where you can dissect it as with a live instructor.  Clearly you do not want to be in the middle ground so to speak when defending against someone with a knife.  You either want to be far enough away that he has to cover distance to get to you or close enough that you can go about neutralizing his bladed tool.


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## MJS

Hawke said:


> Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.
> 
> Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts? Has anyone seen a 2 hand disarm fast enough to work? Can you post a YouTube link of an efficient knife disarm?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> (I still like some of the moves here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )


 
Vic and Barry were both members here at one time. Certainly some great points. My Arnis instructor has us doing those passing drills that he was showing. The other hand is something that I think alot of people forget about and it was discussed in the clip you linked. The thing with the 2 hand grab, is once you grab and get control, you're still moving, not staying still. This clip is pretty good. Is it possible to get cut, punched, kicked, etc.? Of course. As Brian said, I don't want to use a video as a guide to whats going to work/not work. Here is another clip from Karl Tanswell.  IMHO, I think that Karl has some great ideas.

Mike


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## kaizasosei

i say...act defensive the whole time until a true chance to grab is available.  never try to attack the knife weilder too early or even get into counters until the weapon is under control.
it much easier defending if all you have to do is flick your wrist and touch the guy.  
 id want to keep my distance and remain highly alert, use any object possible to maintain the act of being defensive. 
just my twocents...otherwise i agree with everyone especially i like the very informative and helpful list of tips.

j


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## KenpoTex

AFAIC, 90% of the knife-disarm techniques taught in the MA world are optimistic at best and suicidal at worst. If practicioners of these arts were to try their disarms against an opponent who was attacking with realistic attack energy and actually trying to stab/slash them (for example, the clip MJS posted from the Rich Dimitri seminar) not just feeding them the prescribed attack their technique would go down the crapper.

Yes, getting hit by the opponent's other hand is a concern, however the primary concern is NOT getting hit by the knife. As others have pointed out, in the clips from the original post, the defender was in the worst place he could be. He should have either broken contact, or "crashed" the attacker after getting the knife. From the attacker's perspective, it's gonna be hard to fight when you're getting pushed backwards and being blasted with knees and headbutts. 

As someone else said, there is always a counter. There is not a technique in existence that is foolproof (unless you count a 12-gauge from 20 feet). If there were, that'd be all we'd need to learn, at least until someone came up with a way to defeat our perfect techniqe. There is always a risk or, dare I say it, a high probability of getting stabbed/slashed when you are forced to go empty-hand vs. knife. Anyone that says otherwise is an idiot. You may get lucky and take the other guy out without being injured yourself but I wouldn't count on it.

I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!! I tell my students that their mindset in this type of situation should be such that they are willing to rip the other guys throat out with their teeth if necessary. Whatever it takes, take the other guy out.

If you want some good empty hand vs. knife material, check out Richard Dimitri, Karl Transwell's S.T.A.B. system (these first two were the ones in the clips MJS posted), Jerry Wetzel's RED ZONE, and Marc Denny's "Dog Catcher" (Marc is one of the founding members of the Dog Brothers).

Just my $0.02


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## Fang

Very neat thread and all good points, in the early 90's whilst I was a teenager I thought I was a ninja and could pull off some stupid crap... One day my friend was sitting on the couch playing with a survival knife and I tried to catch the blade between my two hands lol, his immediate reaction was to retract the blade downwards to wrest control of it. Needless to say my technique didn't work and I got cuts on both hands... Those were the good times, me and him would always poke each other in the eye in one way or another whilst pretending we werent the one doing the poking. =p I got him back one day while hiking on a mountain during the night time... I really leaned some weight into a tree branch along the path and whoomp! It hit him square in the face, lol we had a special relationship him and I, injuring each other and what not. I'm sitting here laughing as if it just happened again rotflmao... =)


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## zDom

kenpotex said:


> I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!!



I agree. Getting punched is not as much of a concern for me as getting the knife out of his hand.

Of course, you don't just grab the arm and stand there. 

Great post, btw, Tellner. Been stabbed once and it did feel just like a punch.


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## Langenschwert

If you're defending against a knife, you're going to get cut, 90% of the time.  It doesn't really matter how good you are at "unarmed knife defence", since you might get stabbed before you even know there's a knife being used.  In fact, many of the Medieval and Renaissance European manuals detailing knife defence start out saying something like "if he has drawn his dagger, and you have not drawn yours..."  The assumption is that you have a dagger, and should have drawn it _already_, but there you are unarmed, and you have to deal with it.  Don't worry about getting cut or not.  Worry about living.  Run like blazes if you can.

The Masters of Defence did indeed teach both one handed and two handed covers against dagger attacks.  Neither is better than the other, it's a matter of what your opponent is up to.  Get control of the weapon arm and break it (or at least immobilize it) at all costs, before he switches the knife to his other hand or counters you.  You can get stitches later.  You cannot be precious or pretty about it, or you will die.  Knife fighting is dirty, messy business, and so are knife defences.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## thardey

Langenschwert brought up a good point about switching hands -- most defenses I've been taught are moot if they simply reach with their left hand and grab the knife. Then you're in a bad bad place.


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## tellner

That's why it's not a bad idea to study knife defense from someone who specializes in using a knife.


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## Mr. E

kenpotex said:


> I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!! I tell my students that their mindset in this type of situation should be such that they are willing to rip the other guys throat out with their teeth if necessary. Whatever it takes, take the other guy out.



I have to echo the praises for this post. If I have to insure that he will not stick me with a knife at the cost of getting hit with his other hand, I think I will take the punishment. But unlike the guy in the clip, I will not be just standing there and taking it.

Of course, that would not be my first option. But I assume that things will not always go my way and that may be the best option in a bad situation.

And there are ways of holding onto an arm while protecting yourself from the other limbs.


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## arnisador

Hawke said:


> Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.
> 
> Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2



I have to disagree....if someone is capable of pulling off the counters in Part 2, he's also capable of plucking off the arm if you grab with just one hand. I prefer both hands on the wheel. Look down to present the crown of the head to the punch.

Mind you, the palusut technique in Part 1 is great, and I taught it this weekend at the WMAA Camp...but the when you actually get to grabbing the arm, I like two hands.



> (I still like some of the moves here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )



Again I must disagree...many of those look unsafe to me.


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## Langenschwert

The two hand cover does work.  It is described in Renaissance manuals, written by those who trained a lot of knife fighting.  The key is, you don't STAY there and hang on for dear life.  You gotta move and do something as fast as possible... faster than you can think.  It must be reflex.  Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).

The fact of the matter is, you're in big trouble already if you're in a knife fight, and have made some serious tactical errors to end up in that situation in the first place.  If the attack is by ambush, and you manage to see the attack coming at all (lucky you), then you've got to use whatever cover you can pull off.  The situation is already desperate. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## arnisador

Langenschwert said:


> Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).



Yup...or, drive the arm back to his body where it's weak (say, along the leg), then strike and/or disarm.


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## bonviet

Great posts guys, agree with alot don't with very little, any plan i've seen here is a hell of alot better than what we commonly see as Knife defense.
I've been in them. and i've seen them used on others Both agricultural edged weapons and on humans in slum vill
I felt my knife stab,Felt like someone had given me a VERY hard Injection of those horse needles IT hurt but had that Stinging and pressure insertion feel to it. it wasn't that bad NO BRAGGING, But thank go it FELT like something going into me not just a punch or i would have ignored it. Itfelt like a BIG Shot.And got my complete an total undivided attention. Also his weapon was a very good Shiv Triangle blade sharp as bejeezus and they are common here and made from thick cheap screw drivers who then triangle them on a automantic wetstone into a triangle with the edges sharp as a razor then finish with tapering off the tringle until it endges. cost you about 3 dollars, they then get some cardboard and there is you sheath.but it's sti;; a common tool to use here for carving about stuff etc. 
but not the cuts on the hands i didn't notice until the matter had been resolved but immediately afterwards and they Burned like i had Stuck a lighter over them..
Odd.


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## Josh Oakley

MHO, you can in fact use a two handed defense against a single knife. From the inside? not so much. But if you get on the outside, sometimes a two-handed control is best, and allows you more options than the attacker. But in an empty handed defense against ANY weapon, there are three principles that ill keep your chances of survival high:

*1. End the situation as quickly as possible.* The longer the fight, the more likely you are to get cut.
*2. Disarm the attacker if at all possible. *He can't cut you so easy without his knife.
*3. Disable your attacker. *Break something. Twist something, hit everything. Heck, get him to stab himself. If he's moving, he's dangerous. If he's disarmed and moving, he's _still_ dangerous. If someone pulls a lethal weapon on you, their intention is, almost undoubtedly, similarly lethal. 

Focus your training around these principles and you'll increase your chances of survival.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Josh Oakley said:


> MHO, you can in fact use a two handed defense against a single knife. From the inside? not so much. But if you get on the outside, sometimes a two-handed control is best, and allows you more options than the attacker. But in an empty handed defense against ANY weapon, there are three principles that ill keep your chances of survival high:
> 
> *1. End the situation as quickly as possible.* The longer the fight, the more likely you are to get cut.
> *2. Disarm the attacker if at all possible. *He can't cut you so easy without his knife.
> *3. Disable your attacker. *Break something. Twist something, hit everything. Heck, get him to stab himself. If he's moving, he's dangerous. If he's disarmed and moving, he's _still_ dangerous. If someone pulls a lethal weapon on you, their intention is, almost undoubtedly, similarly lethal.
> 
> Focus your training around these principles and you'll increase your chances of survival.


 
Nice post and a well thought out response.  Being on the inside is simply put more dangerous than being on the outside.  Good post that I enjoyed reading.


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## Bigshadow

MJS said:


> This clip is pretty good. Is it possible to get cut, punched, kicked, etc.?




The thing I would like to point out about that particular clip is...  He is telling the folks to go full speed and full force, but when he is being attacked by the student, it isn't a matter of full speed full force, but timing and proper distance.  If you watch him closely, he moves at the moment the guy attacks and is inside before the blade is "there".

The purpose I pointed that out is that the full speed/full force thing is GOOD once in a while, AFTER you already have internalized the timing and proper movement, then at which time it really won't make much difference to you whether they go fast or slow, it will all be the same.  Unfortunately, some folks tend to want to go full speed/full force before they have actually learned what it is they need to learn and this slows their training progress.


As for knife work, I never teach to grab the knife hand, whether single handed or double handed.  I do believe that aside from being very far away from the knife, the safest place to be is between the knife and the attacker (The same side the attacker is on  ).

I believe focusing on the knife is a good way to receive the knife... If ya know what I mean...


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## tellner

It's important to be able to do things at speed and against real resistance. But these days it sometimes becomes so much of a fad that it gets in the way of learning. You need to have a good foundation and be able to do things correctly, with proper body mechanics and good understanding. That requires progressive training. Some of it will be slow, precise and controlled, especially at the beginning. If you go too hard and too fast too quickly you will ingrain bad habits that just happen to work a little bit better than whatever else you have. 

When the stakes are as high as weapons defense it's even more important. You have to get it right under pressure and do it the first time. So you have to be used to pressure and you have to be able to do it right. Work up to the speed and power gradually and make sure that the technical skills have a chance to get to the proper level. When you're going harder and faster make the difficulty just a touch or two past where you're comfortable but not quite out of reach. Then pull back a bit, improve until that level is almost easy and amp it up a little more. That way you won't be training for failure and will be able to keep your training under increased pressure. Other than shooting every horse that doesn't jump the fence first time that's the only way to end up with people who can go hard and fast with skill.


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## SilatFan

The video and Mr. Cudas argument remind me of a TMA instructor (I like and respect TMA Im just trying to use an example most of us have heard or seen before) who saw a young Mark Colman takedown and ground n pound an opponent into oblivion.  Then the TMA instructor said If that Coleman or any of those other UFC guys tried to take me down Id just do this.... (Insert an absurdly, impossible, unrealistic and ineffective technique done against a poorly executed takedown).  

And if they tried to ground and pound me Id do this (Insert more of the same).  

And if a boxer tried to jab me Id do this. (Again insert a poorly demonstrated jab and then the magic counter).  

And if they tried to  Well, you get the point.  



There is always a counter and re-counter to just about every technique when done in a vacuum.  Those counters look even better when the person doing the technique, in this case the 2 on 1 arm control, executes the technique/tactic poorly.  Im not suggesting that training in Mr. Cudas JKD isnt a good thing.  I just believe its easy to say a tactic doesnt work when our training partner does it poorly AND we know its coming.  

With the premise that for some reason you must be or begin the encounter empty handed Id recommend the following instructors and videos.  Please note some of them contradict one another at least slightly in what they advocate and/or they cover different aspects of knife defense.  In no particular order:


Senshidos Defense against an edged weapon
Kelly McCann/Jim Grovers Defense against an edged weapon
Die Less Often by Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez
Red Zone 1 and 2 by Wetzel (SBGi)
STAB by Karl Tanswell (SBGi)
Michael Janich Defense against an edged weapon


There are a ton of other resources out there but the above are the ones Ive seen and respect.    I hope they might benefit you if you check them out.


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## arnisador

Bigshadow said:


> The thing I would like to point out about that particular clip is...  He is telling the folks to go full speed and full force, but when he is being attacked by the student, it isn't a matter of full speed full force, but timing and proper distance.  If you watch him closely, he moves at the moment the guy attacks and is inside before the blade is "there".



Yes, a matter of "perceptual speed" that will work well for the expert but which the beginner may not have developed, and the surprised victim may not have time enough to use. It's great to have this ability but I agree it speaks more to the instructor's skills than the technique's viability. Not that this is a criticism of the techniques--it's just that an expert can, by definition, make his or her stuff work! If you have that kind of timing/reaction advantage on your opponent, you can often just beat them to the punch with an (eye) jab anyway rather than use some more sophisticated technique.


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## Bigshadow

arnisador said:


> I agree it speaks more to the instructor's skills than the technique's viability. Not that this is a criticism of the techniques--it's just that an expert can, by definition, make his or her stuff work! If you have that kind of timing/reaction advantage on your opponent, you can often just beat them to the punch with an (eye) jab anyway rather than use some more sophisticated technique.




Absolutely!   That is what I was trying to say...


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## MingTheMerciless

Either Run away or surrender , you will most likely meet slash and cut from knife attack even when you know how to disarm and Knife are really excellent close quarter weapon .


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## Mr. E

MingTheMerciless said:


> Either Run away or surrender ,



No.

If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But _never_ surrender when that could lead to you dying.


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## shesulsa

Mr. E said:


> No.
> 
> If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But _never_ surrender when that could lead to you dying.


AMEN, brother.

artyon:


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## Brian R. VanCise

Mr. E said:


> No.
> 
> If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But _never_ surrender when that could lead to you dying.


 
Yes at some point you have to make a gut choice and go with it.


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## Karatedrifter7

I'm wrestling with this one too. But I say you have some kind of plan of action, even if its just means running like hell.
All too often somebody produces a knife, the other person gets immobolized by fear, and then stabbed to death.


----------



## Rob Wilson

Easiest two hand disarm as follows:

Left hand on pump of mossberg 12 gauge, right hand on grip. Just make sure you are a good 25 feet back. Pump action and pull trigger as many times as needed to ensure meat is cooked. 

Above recipe is not recommended for enclosed spaces. 

Also recommended: Tell attacker, "Hey look, there's Elvis/ Frank Sinatra/ Paris Hilton". When knife packer turns with hopeful look on face and with autographable picture and pen, quickly push him into fast moving jet turbine. Use both hands.


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## Rich Parsons

Rob Wilson said:


> Easiest two hand disarm as follows:
> 
> Left hand on pump of mossberg 12 gauge, right hand on grip. Just make sure you are a good 25 feet back. Pump action and pull trigger as many times as needed to ensure meat is cooked.
> 
> Above recipe is not recommended for enclosed spaces.
> 
> Also recommended: Tell attacker, "Hey look, there's Elvis/ Frank Sinatra/ Paris Hilton". When knife packer turns with hopeful look on face and with autographable picture and pen, quickly push him into fast moving jet turbine. Use both hands.



AW Man, I shoot left handed with shot-guns. I guess this would not work for me.  


I have staid out of this discussion for a reason. I think every move has a counter. As such, there is always a spot of danger, and dealing with a knife it makes it even more so. That is in my opinion.


----------



## tellner

Rob, the Mossberg 590 has a bayonet lug. Add that special ingredient, and the recipe works just fine.


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## Rob Wilson

Hey thanks, this is good to know. I don't really know squat about guns, just that the pointy end with the hole in it goes towards the bad guy......

Thanks for all the neat opinions and knowledgeable talky.


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## bigdave44

I know this subject can be talked about to death for hours on end.  Most seem to have some pretty good ideas and suggestions.  Just to add my .02...you WILL get cut in a knife "fight", the important thing is remembering where the worst places to get cut are, and protect those areas, such as a thrust to the chest, slash to the throat, or slicing the inside of your forearms(wrist and up).  The unfortunate statistic is that most people never knew their attacker had a knife until they got stabbed...or even fought off the attacker only to realize they are bleeding everywhere from a knife they never saw.  They all assumed that their attacker did not have a weapon.  It may not help, but if these people assumed that the person had a knife they may have saved themselves a few seconds of reaction time and at least increased their awareness.

I think that the mental aspect for a martial artist should focus less on the word "knife fighting" as much as it should be recognized as "surviving attempted murder."  If someone pulls a knife on you, they are demonstrating intent to kill you. They are not looking for a "fight", they are looking to kill.  The scary thing is that if someone intends to kill you, and you have no idea they are coming, or they have a knife fully concealed in a sweatshirt sleeve and they run up and attack you...good luck, just pray that on the first strike they miss a vital area and now you can rock and roll.  When I was young I briefly trained with a kid.  He trained for a couple months then dissapeared.  About ten years later my instructor showed me an article...apparently the kid(now in his 20's) was at a baseball game.  After the game he and his friend were walking back to their truck...he apparently bumped into the rear view mirror or a parked car while shuffling through the crowded parking lot.  Unfortunatley in the car were a few gang members that were about to initiate a new member, and he got out of the car, walked up to the man, stabbed him in the heart and ran away, killing the man i once new as a child.  He had no warning, no time to react.  

Im not exactly sure what my point is, and I am going to sound a bit paranoid...but if you train yourself to always assume that the person approaching you aggresively has a knife and knows how to use it, you at least gain a split second in your reaction time.  Just like the SuperBad movie...the cop walks into a party announcing "I assume you all have crack and guns!"...my motto have become similar, assuming everyone has knives!


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## Doc_Jude

bigdave44 said:


> Im not exactly sure what my point is, and I am going to sound a bit paranoid...but if you train yourself to always assume that the person approaching you aggresively has a knife and knows how to use it, you at least gain a split second in your reaction time.  Just like the SuperBad movie...the cop walks into a party announcing "I assume you all have crack and guns!"...my motto have become similar, assuming everyone has knives!



This negates ALOT of techniques/methods.


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## thardey

bigdave44 said:


> Im not exactly sure what my point is, and I am going to sound a bit paranoid...but if you train yourself to always assume that the person approaching you aggresively has a knife and knows how to use it, you at least gain a split second in your reaction time.  Just like the SuperBad movie...the cop walks into a party announcing "I assume you all have crack and guns!"...my motto have become similar, assuming everyone has knives!



I would modify this slightly, but significantly: _If you can't see their hands_, assume there is a weapon in it.


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## Doc_Jude

thardey said:


> I would modify this slightly, but significantly: _If you can't see their hands_, assume there is a weapon in it.



Would that be a "safe assumption"? Hyuk hyuk hyuk


----------



## Hawke

Greetings All,

Been a year and my knife education is still on going.

I liked the stuff I saw from Karl Tanswell (I think MJS has the link to the clip).
I also like that stuff I see the Dog Brothers use for knife defense/attack.

They both use 2 hands to disarm.

Great responses from everyone.  Thank you. 

Hoping the info in this thread will be informative to others.


----------



## BLACK LION

zDom said:


> personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!!


you dont disarm anyone by taking away thier tool(s).... you disarm them by shutting off their brain or thier body....    they will drop thier tool once they have been injured or it will be stuck in thier cold dead hands... 
you do not use one hand...two hands... a jacket... a book... a briefcase to "disarm a tool"....    it is not tactically sound or combat effective.... always cause injury thats the goal... becuase that ensures you survive and they dont  

I battled this for some time only to find I was completely wrong...
 the knife isnt the problem or the solution...
 its the attackers brain and central nervous system.... even in imminent danger of contact with the blade causing injury to shut his brain off is the first priority.... depending on size weight technique we can wrestle and dance with the knife all day...accomplishing nothing and taking me closer to death....    

if the distance can be closed then penetrate through him and injure him until he is no longer responsive.... you will see the knife become inanimate once the guy cant hold it cuz he is too busy grabbing his crushed throat...  
if you can increase the distance by running then thats your choice he may succeed with a woman or child another day.... 


you cannot dance around the real truth.... its not a duel....screw the knife put him down.... statistically people involved in a knife attack have dozens of superficial or non lethal wounds and one or a couple fatal(last ones).... you may get cut but it beats getting gutted.... same with a gun... its not the gun its the guys brain thats holding it.... and yeah the gun will go off and i may get shot but its better than being executed.... 96% survival rate after being shot once....  its the follow up shots that start to count....    the math is simple.... always cause injury by striking the other person with the bodys entire weight....


----------



## zDom

BLACK LION said:


> you dont disarm anyone by taking away thier tool(s).... you disarm them by shutting off their brain or thier body....    they will drop thier tool once they have been injured or it will be stuck in thier cold dead hands...
> you do not use one hand...two hands... a jacket... a book... a briefcase to "disarm a tool"....    it is not tactically sound or combat effective.... always cause injury thats the goal... becuase that ensures you survive and they dont
> 
> I battled this for some time only to find I was completely wrong...
> the knife isnt the problem or the solution...
> its the attackers brain and central nervous system.... even in imminent danger of contact with the blade causing injury to shut his brain off is the first priority.... depending on size weight technique we can wrestle and dance with the knife all day...accomplishing nothing and taking me closer to death....
> 
> if the distance can be closed then penetrate through him and injure him until he is no longer responsive.... you will see the knife become inanimate once the guy cant hold it cuz he is too busy grabbing his crushed throat...
> if you can increase the distance by running then thats your choice he may succeed with a woman or child another day....
> 
> 
> you cannot dance around the real truth.... its not a duel....screw the knife put him down.... statistically people involved in a knife attack have dozens of superficial or non lethal wounds and one or a couple fatal(last ones).... you may get cut but it beats getting gutted.... same with a gun... its not the gun its the guys brain thats holding it.... and yeah the gun will go off and i may get shot but its better than being executed.... 96% survival rate after being shot once....  its the follow up shots that start to count....    the math is simple.... always cause injury by striking the other person with the bodys entire weight....




So what are you trying to say?

Ignore the knife and go for a knockout?

You do know that there are people out there who will simply not go unconcious for you, right? "Shutting off their brain" is NOT always as easy as you seem to think it is.

Or am I misunderstanding your post?


----------



## BLACK LION

no not at all my friend, let me elaborate....  

everyone will fall to a crushed throat....everyone will squeel if you gouge out thier eyes...eveyone will be in agony with a crushed eardrum.... trauma to the central nervous system caused by continous "injury" will shut down thier ability to fight and eventually they will faint or die...    
but were talking about a knife attack....  you dont want them unconcious you want them non functional by either killing them or putting them in a bed with a straw till they pull the plug.... we are not lookin for a knockout or a tap out....crush his sternum... break his neck.... rupture his kidney ets 

to me a disarm is a social response to a violent confrontation... violence needs to occcur immediately to ensure you go home...there is no time to set up a disarm.... what if they rush you prison or gangland style....imagine football with knives...  when I thought of it that way all my disarms techniques went bye bye..... because if they are bigger and stronger you lose.... 
I was guilty of deuling with the tool but there are too many variables and too many ways to get cut trying to de-tool an attacker.... besides I have to always assume there is more than one attacker and why would I try to deul with someone when I can easily be jumped from another direction and still taken down....   

violence is not punching and kicking.... its not a knock out... tthis issocial sportsmans-like conduct.... 

I am talking about penetrating(entire body) through the guy rotating and crushing his throat, rupturing his testicles or gouging his eyeballs.... these things cause injury(300lb men) and give you the reactions you need to injure more things like crush a patella or an elbow or break some fingers...   imagine wrestling a knife away from a fully capable 300lb man or trying to break his arm.... he would toss me across the room.... but if i jam my thumbs into his skull through his eye sockets while pushing his head into the nearest hard surface Im going to get a nervous system reaction that will allow me to injure him further becuase he is no longer fully capable of using his strength and size against me.... I now have the unfair advantage he once thought he had with the knfe... his orbital fissures are crushed and his throat is next.... you show me a victim of a fatal stabbing after they gouged out thier attackers eyeballs and crushed thier throat- prolly wont find one.... now show me a victim of a fatal stabbing that tried to wrestle the knife away or defend against it- there is one every day .....   

the human body can withstand large amounts of punishment.... punches ,kicks, throws, locks and mma shows us that.... the brain and the central nervous system remain fully functional and capable...   if you rupture a testicle or misplace a hip joint you interrupt the central nervous system with trauma....   this is the goal....    why punch the guy or kick him when you can drop your whole body weight with a fore arm elbow or knee


----------



## geezer

BLACK LION said:


> ...to me a disarm is a social response to a violent confrontation... violence needs to occcur immediately to ensure you go home...there is no time to set up a disarm....


 
I have to agree. You always hear talk about "de-fanging the serpent." Well _just think about that for a minute_. You find a rattler in the corrals. You gotta kill it, 'cause it's a danger to you and the livestock. Now, you gonna go hunt up a pair a pliers and try to yank out its teeth, or *just grab a shovel and crush its head?*

Now , like Black Lion said, doesn't the same thing apply when you're dealing with a _human snake?_


----------



## Bodhisattva

Hawke said:


> Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.
> 
> Part 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part 2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are your thoughts?  Has anyone seen a 2 hand disarm fast enough to work?  Can you post a YouTube link of an efficient knife disarm?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> (I still like some of the moves here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )



Disarming a knife wielding attacker is ALWAYS dangerous.

You are much better grabbing his knife arm with TWO hands than with One.

Just think about it.  The reasons are obvious.

You grab my knife hand with one hand, and I am going to cut you.


----------



## wrc619

I think there is a very good reason there is a Federal doctrine that man with a drawn knife is more dangerous than a man with a holsterd gun at 9 feet.  I think the create distance for defense has the most merit.  When we do knife drills, a disarm is a secondary consideration.  Avoid the blade is number one.  If he happens to drop the knife from a runaway back kick in the balls, or some other dirty rotten survival(so called cheating) tactic great.  During our recent knife training day, Instructor had us use markers and wear white T-shirts.  Even Instructor got "cut".  We were using free sparring, which is in essence, use all that you have learned thus far to defend yourself.  Knife defense number one doesn't work very well on an uncooperative opponent.  Those drills were done to reinforce to us the reality:xtrmshock that karate is not magic.


----------



## arnisador

geezer said:


> I have to agree. You always hear talk about "de-fanging the serpent." Well _just think about that for a minute_. You find a rattler in the corrals. You gotta kill it, 'cause it's a danger to you and the livestock. Now, you gonna go hunt up a pair a pliers and try to yank out its teeth, or *just grab a shovel and crush its head?*


 
A good point, and if that can work, fine!



> Now , like Black Lion said, doesn't the same thing apply when you're dealing with a _human snake?_



If you have a shovel, sure. A shovel is, what, 3 times as long as the snake? If I had an 18 foot long weapon I could use effectively against a 6 foot tall man with an 8 inch knife, I'd use it.

If I was in grappling range with a snake I'd probably try to grab it just below its head so it couldn't bite me, and snap it there if I could. That's a defanging idea--rendering its fangs useless. For a human, the analogy would be controlling the hand and breaking the wrist.


----------



## BLACK LION

how would you combat a man who is 6 ft something with an 8'' blade???? in the case of this thread contact has been made so physicality is iminent....  right.....     so you have been interviewed and ambushed 
      what would you do???   try to get something in between you to "shield you from the big bad knife(snake)"  ????  run(become game) ??? put your tool up and start deulin(movie magic)???   try to wrestle with this obvious monster (defang the serpent)" ??? try to socialize your way out with family photos????  get out your jacket to wrap him up????    

nothing you can think of will ensure 100% that you and others will have  a better chance of survival... nothing....  its all magical bs....    the knife is only a force multiplier it is not the weapon and not the target.... the knife carries a mystic aura of terror.... and the knife cant even do anything unless its in someones hands(go figure).....  people give too much power to a powerless object....  the only thing that will ensure 100% that you will have a better chance of surviving a knife attack is action...abrupt and violent action... you need to ambush them with unsuspecting violence.... hence "the shovel".... we are not talking about taking your social martial arts skills to this bad guy....we are talking about using your entire body weight to destroy him.... we are talking about using your most dangerous weapon of all.... your mind....  this is the shovel on the head of the snake....     we are not wrestling this guy or trying to punch and kick him becuase it will not affect him(defang/poison snake... hes a monster... your arm or leg weighs what 10-20lbs??? you are better off picking up a rock....  now.... how much do you weigh 150-190 lbs??? hit him with that and see what happens.... you drive 180 lbs of force into an eye socket or some testicles or anything on that mans body you will see true damage....   structural meltdown....  a man can can take a 100 punches but only 1 crushed trachea....  there is a vast difference in the mindset and execution here....  your body is the shovel to that snakes head


----------



## hafoc

Langenschwert said:


> The two hand cover does work. It is described in Renaissance manuals, written by those who trained a lot of knife fighting. The key is, you don't STAY there and hang on for dear life. You gotta move and do something as fast as possible... faster than you can think. It must be reflex. Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).
> 
> The fact of the matter is, you're in big trouble already if you're in a knife fight, and have made some serious tactical errors to end up in that situation in the first place. If the attack is by ambush, and you manage to see the attack coming at all (lucky you), then you've got to use whatever cover you can pull off. The situation is already desperate.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
Yes, exactly right. The dojo dancers in the videos that started this thread have no real idea how these "two hand" defenses really work. You do them right and the other guy has no chance to react before his arm is broken or he's staring back at his own knife.


----------



## sgtmac_46

zDom said:


> So what are you trying to say?
> 
> Ignore the knife and go for a knockout?
> 
> You do know that there are people out there who will simply not go unconcious for you, right? "Shutting off their brain" is NOT always as easy as you seem to think it is.
> 
> Or am I misunderstanding your post?


 Darn those uncooperative street thugs, not going unconscious when they should! :lool:


----------



## sgtmac_46

BLACK LION said:


> how would you combat a man who is 6 ft something with an 8'' blade???? in the case of this thread contact has been made so physicality is iminent....  right.....     so you have been interviewed and ambushed
> what would you do???   try to get something in between you to "shield you from the big bad knife(snake)"  ????  run(become game) ??? put your tool up and start deulin(movie magic)???   try to wrestle with this obvious monster (defang the serpent)" ??? try to socialize your way out with family photos????  get out your jacket to wrap him up????
> 
> nothing you can think of will ensure 100% that you and others will have  a better chance of survival... nothing....  its all magical bs....    the knife is only a force multiplier it is not the weapon and not the target.... the knife carries a mystic aura of terror.... and the knife cant even do anything unless its in someones hands(go figure).....  people give too much power to a powerless object....  the only thing that will ensure 100% that you will have a better chance of surviving a knife attack is action...abrupt and violent action... you need to ambush them with unsuspecting violence.... hence "the shovel".... we are not talking about taking your social martial arts skills to this bad guy....we are talking about using your entire body weight to destroy him.... we are talking about using your most dangerous weapon of all.... your mind....  this is the shovel on the head of the snake....     we are not wrestling this guy or trying to punch and kick him becuase it will not affect him(defang/poison snake... hes a monster... your arm or leg weighs what 10-20lbs??? you are better off picking up a rock....  now.... how much do you weigh 150-190 lbs??? hit him with that and see what happens.... you drive 180 lbs of force into an eye socket or some testicles or anything on that mans body you will see true damage....   structural meltdown....  a man can can take a 100 punches but only 1 crushed trachea....  there is a vast difference in the mindset and execution here....  your body is the shovel to that snakes head



I think the best idea you had here was throwing rocks!  The 'David' offense!


----------



## hafoc

sgtmac_46 said:


> Darn those uncooperative street thugs, not going unconscious when they should! :lool:


 
So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm and gain control of it, then hit the guy, usually with a palm heel to the point of the chin, but anywhere on the head will do. Then you lock him up or throw him which will destroy his elbow or put him in a position to be stomped. This is pretty standard stuff advocated across the centuries. You find it in koryu jujutsu systems, in judo manuals from the turn of the century up to WW2 (and I've seen it in Marine WW2 training films), and among modern practitioners such as Hochheim. Such defenses also are staples in krav maga, with good reason: because they are effective.

I once met a corrections officer who did this in response to a shank attack, except instead of hitting the inmate in the head, he hit the guy in the chest. The force of the blow, combined with some leg action, drove the inmate to the ground with such force that he cracked his skull on the floor.


----------



## sgtmac_46

hafoc said:


> So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm and gain control of it, then hit the guy, usually with a palm heel to the point of the chin, but anywhere on the head will do. Then you lock him up or throw him which will destroy his elbow or put him in a position to be stomped. This is pretty standard stuff advocated across the centuries. You find it in koryu jujutsu systems, in judo manuals from the turn of the century up to WW2 (and I've seen it in Marine WW2 training films), and among modern practitioners such as Hochheim. Such defenses also are staples in krav maga, with good reason: because they are effective.
> 
> I once met a corrections officer who did this in response to a shank attack, except instead of hitting the inmate in the head, he hit the guy in the chest. The force of the blow, combined with some leg action, drove the inmate to the ground with such force that he cracked his skull on the floor.


 If you can do all of that so simply, you should be making a ton of money in the cage, which should actually be easier since no one has a knife.  There is no 'simply' involved in a knife attack.  And if you can 'punch someone in the head' every time and knock someone silly you really should be a professional turning that talent in to lots of money.

With all due respect to Krav Maga, I wouldn't put all my eggs in those baskets......while Israelis know a thing or two about combat, there are very few Israeli on Palestinian knife fights....rifles, tanks, helicopters, explosives, but few knife attacks.......ergo the vast majority of what you see in knife defense in Krav Maga is based on 'theory' from other systems. 

What makes me laugh about the 'palm heel to the chin'/'break the arm' comments is that they often don't work in fights WITHOUT knives......we can see plenty of evidence of that.  Why is it when we throw a knife in to the equation, some martial arts believe it becomes EASIER to fight?  I'll tell you why....unrealistic training end expectations.......the guy feeding the knife attack in training is dummying up, and giving a false impression........the very comment 'deflect the attacking arm' illustrates that perfectly.......as it suggests something about many knife attacks that only exist in the dojo. 

When researching knife attacks one shouldn't resort to the 'commando' school of knife fighting, as soldiers typically use a knife as a tool, and rarely find themselves defending knife attacks.....commando units teach sentry removal with a knife, but that's entirely separate discipline.

One should also be wary of arts who's blade knowledge arrives from an earlier area of sword and battlefield experience where combatants wore armor, as that colors the techniques used.....a prime example being jujitsu and it's derivatives like Judo.....Japan has long be a sword culture, because of the Samurai, but not a 'knife' culture.....the dynamics are different.

One should stick to arts from strong blade cultures, where REAL stabbings are common place.....places like the Philippines where stabbings out number shootings, and in that crucible the truth is filtered from the BS!

Now Hock did make some good points about some techniques commonly disregarded...he calls them 'the myth of the first event' and 'the myth that all knife fighters are experts'....he makes the point that not ALL knife attacks are from the pumper on steroid type, and that is true......but if you don't train for the pumper on steroid types, if you encounter him you're going to DIE!


----------



## arnisador

hafoc said:


> I once met a corrections officer who did this in response to a shank attack, except instead of hitting the inmate in the head, he hit the guy in the chest. The force of the blow, combined with some leg action, drove the inmate to the ground with such force that he cracked his skull on the floor.



I once met a federal corrections officer who did this to me in training and blew out my knee, leading to an ACL replacement and other more minor repairs to it. He didn't hit the technique quite right and had to muscle it...I was on the floor.

Excellent point about the "age" and details of the blade culture that informed defenses in some arts.


----------



## hafoc

> What makes me laugh about the 'palm heel to the chin'/'break the arm' comments is that they often don't work in fights WITHOUT knives


 
Sure they do. I know quite a number of people who had used this so called useless stuff in real attacks. For instance, a few years back a friend of mine came out of a grocery store late at night and caught a guy trying to jack his car. The car jacker tried to stab him with a screw driver, which in case you're not in the business is one of the prevailing edged weapons out there. My friend broke his arm with one of those useless techniques and then fended off his buddy who tried to bash my friend's head in with a bat and put him on the ground too. His comment to me later was: "It worked just like in class." The ring and the street are two different environments. What works in one doesn't necessarily have to work in the other to make it real.

On the palm heel, I know a CO who fractured an inmate's cheek bone with one. Put the guy down really fast.



> One should also be wary of arts who's blade knowledge arrives from an earlier area of sword and battlefield experience where combatants wore armor, as that colors the techniques used


 
Actually there's quite a lot of material out there written 500-600 years ago that describes what to do in a knife attack and it doesn't involve wearing armor. Do you know better than those guys, who really fought with sharps rather than sitting at their keyboards speculating? I doubt it. BTW, the technique I described is right out of one those books, written by Hans Talhoffer in 1447 (except Talhoffer used a closed fist not the palm heel). Personally, I'll take his advice over that of the armchair experts of today.



> Now Hock did make some good points about some techniques commonly disregarded...he calls them 'the myth of the first event' and 'the myth that all knife fighters are experts'....he makes the point that not ALL knife attacks are from the pumper on steroid type, and that is true......but if you don't train for the pumper on steroid types, if you encounter him you're going to DIE!


 
Hochheim is a sensible guy. Another one out there is Jim Wagner. Both of them have broad practical experience in the real world and, not surprisingly, their answers to the problem of a knife attack are similar and consistent with what you find in the old European fighting manuals.

As for the steroid hyped dude, it could be that you can't even put that sort down even with a 45. The techniques in most systems are designed to deal with the average knife attack, which interestingly enough, tends to be the same wherever you go and during any time period. But you can adapt that stuff to your more difficult assailant. And I agree, it doesn't hurt to train for that possibility. In fact, I have a training partner who is 245 lbs vs. my 170. He's built like a tree and it is impossible to make most locks work on him, so I've had to be creative. It's been tough. But any reasonable person has to admit that not everything works all the time or against everyone.



> With all due respect to Krav Maga, I wouldn't put all my eggs in those baskets......while Israelis know a thing or two about combat, there are very few Israeli on Palestinian knife fights


 
THere are few "knife fights" period. Most "knife fights" are in fact knife assaults in which one person has his knife out and the other one doesn't. The krav maga answer to the knife attack is simple and practical. You'd do yourself some good to pay attention to it rather than sneering at it. It might save your life someday.



> a prime example being jujitsu and it's derivatives like Judo.....Japan has long be a sword culture, because of the Samurai, but not a 'knife' culture.....the dynamics are different.


 
Which goes to show that you know nothing about koryu jujutsu. It never was a strictly unarmed art, and most ryuha have sophisticated methods for dealing with weapons attacks of all kinds, including knives. Interestingly, these methods are identical to those used in Europe 500-600 years ago.


----------



## Rich Parsons

As you move I move.


So ....




hafoc said:


> So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm


 
The attack was a bait, so I pull it back across your deflection and cut you. 




hafoc said:


> and gain control of it,


 
As you attempt to gain control, I change directions and stab.



hafoc said:


> then hit the guy,


 
I have either zoned out of your attack range or if you have moved with me after being cut, and while being stabbed you strike me, I am hiding my chin behind my shoulder. 



hafoc said:


> usually with a palm heel to the point of the chin,


 
Usually is not always which you have stated here yourself. 



hafoc said:


> but anywhere on the head will do.


 
While the egg shell concern for any strike to the head is something to be concerned with, I think depending upon this could be a problem. I never bet on anything 100%, I always expect everything I do to be countered and I am willing to react accordingly. 



hafoc said:


> Then you lock him up


 
Ok let us assume you have me locked up. Now you have two hands on one. While it gives you strength on the weapon hand, I have my free hand to strike back. According to your statements if someone survived your assaults they would have a good chance to knock you out.

Now Like I said I do not think that anything is 100% effective, I think that having an open mind to the situation gives one more options to surviving then closing your mind. But that is my opinion. 



hafoc said:


> or throw him which will destroy his elbow or put him in a position to be stomped.


 
The destruction of the elbow is not gaurenteed. I mean if one counters with a bent elbow and dropped center it can negate/counter this technique. 

By Stomped, I assume Foot Stomped while you have two hands on their one and trying to turn them out which would negate the above strike I mentioned would be a counter. This is good, but understand that if they were looking for their counter strike earlier then they might be prepared here as well, and be ready to counter like I said.


As Arnisador stated, if this is done at full strength or speed to a person it can most definitely damage the person. But I do not bet on it being 100% effective. 



hafoc said:


> This is pretty standard stuff advocated across the centuries. You find it in koryu jujutsu systems, in judo manuals from the turn of the century up to WW2 (and I've seen it in Marine WW2 training films), and among modern practitioners such as Hochheim. Such defenses also are staples in krav maga, with good reason: because they are effective.


 
Effective they are. 100% guarenteed they are not. To me it is not the art or lineage of where it comes from, but from the person(s) who is(are) executing the techniques. 




hafoc said:


> I once met a corrections officer who did this in response to a shank attack, except instead of hitting the inmate in the head, he hit the guy in the chest. The force of the blow, combined with some leg action, drove the inmate to the ground with such force that he cracked his skull on the floor.


 
I myself have done lots of things with inexperienced attackers, with a Knife and empty hand and/or other weapons. Or programmed attackers. I have had people strike me only 3 times and drop their hands as that is all the ever practiced for. Instead of striking them in the head, I did palm heel strikes/pushes to the chest to knock him down.


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## sgtmac_46

hafoc said:


> Do you know better than those guys, who really fought with sharps rather than sitting at their keyboards speculating? I doubt it. BTW, the technique I described is right out of one those books, written by Hans Talhoffer in 1447 (except Talhoffer used a closed fist not the palm heel). Personally, I'll take his advice over that of the armchair experts of today.


 You might want to keep in mind that you are an armchair expert typing on a keyboard about things you've only read in books and practiced in dojos.....have you ever even seen the results of a real knife attack, in bloody person?  I have!  There was no chance to 'parry to a beautifully delivered arm bar'........it was, as Marc 'Crafty Dog' Denny describes it 'A crazed chimpanzee with a spike'. 

One guy in a stabbing I showed up on DID punch his attacker in the face during the assault......of course he also got three stab wounds to the abdomen for his troubles.

The biggest problem I have with your posts is the dismissal of the threat of knife based on your 'dojo practice'.....the CERTAINTY that the attack will come in a certain manner, and you'll simply 'just parry to my horse stance and transition to the super-knife takeaway technique with the kung fu grip'......fortunately for you we live in a relatively safe society where the strong likelihood is that you'll never have to be confronted by a 'crazed chimpanzee with a spike'......but if you are, and you survive it, post some pictures of your injuries as a resulting object lesson.


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## hafoc

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *hafoc*
> 
> 
> _So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm_
> 
> The attack was a bait, so I pull it back across your deflection and cut you.


 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.

The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.

This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.


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## sgtmac_46

hafoc said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.
> 
> The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.
> 
> This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related
> 
> If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.


 
While 'trawling' the web is good.....i've seen plenty of knife attacks in real life, enough to tell you there IS no 'average knife attack'. 

And if you're counting on your knife attacker to be drunk like the guy in the video......well, HOPE is not a plan of action. 

I'll reiterate.....the problem I have with your comments is the surety that you know what the 'average knife attack' looks like. You're operating on a set of assumptions.......we're not even arguing about particular techniques.

The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.


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## hafoc

sgtmac_46 said:


> You might want to keep in mind that you are an armchair expert typing on a keyboard about things you've only read in books and practiced in dojos.....have you ever even seen the results of a real knife attack, in bloody person? I have! There was no chance to 'parry to a beautifully delivered arm bar'........it was, as Marc 'Crafty Dog' Denny describes it 'A crazed chimpanzee with a spike'.
> 
> One guy in a stabbing I showed up on DID punch his attacker in the face during the assault......of course he also got three stab wounds to the abdomen for his troubles.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with your posts is the dismissal of the threat of knife based on your 'dojo practice'.....the CERTAINTY that the attack will come in a certain manner, and you'll simply 'just parry to my horse stance and transition to the super-knife takeaway technique with the kung fu grip'......fortunately for you we live in a relatively safe society where the strong likelihood is that you'll never have to be confronted by a 'crazed chimpanzee with a spike'......but if you are, and you survive it, post some pictures of your injuries as a resulting object lesson.


 
Well, I am not as experienced as some, but I've been in more than two dozen street fights, I've been stabbed twice (three times if you count the time I stabbed myself ;-) ), I've had knives pulled on me more times than that, I once faced off with a guy knife to knife (though nothing happened after that), I was a cop reporter and not only saw the victims but read the cop reports and attended the trials of the killers, I worked for more than 20 years with corrections officers who live in the worst knife culture in the US and learned as much as I could from them about what comes down and how to deal with it, as well as discussing with cops their experiences and solutions. I've also spent a considerable amount of time looking at video of real knife attacks and studying everything in print I can get my hands on about what really happens on the street as opposed to what people think happens. I also have talked with quite a few guys who've faced knife attacks to find out how they happened and what they did to survive. If this means I'm an armchair expert, then I guess I am.

Now, lets talk about "dismissing the threat of the knife based on your dojo practice." Nothing I have said dismisses the threat of the knife. I'll be the first to tell you that they are very dangerous and that even a 10 year old with a knife is somebody to respect. The point of this discussion is my objection to some guys dissing a particular approach to edge weapon defense that has a proven track record and whose methods are found throughout the world spanning many centuries. The fact that so many people all over the world throughout so much time have found these methods useful should make one pause before shooting off an opinion. My point is that to dismiss that approach out of hand does nothing but display one's ignorance and indicates to me that the speaker has not spent any time determining how knife attacks really happen and what can be done to defeat them.

On your friend who punched a guy and then got stabbed: well, he probably didn't have control of the attacker's arm before he punched him. One key feature of this "classical" method is the first thing you try to do before anything else is get control of the other guy's arm so he doesn't get a chance to stick you again. If you don't do that, you might as well kiss your *** goodbye. Anyway, nothing is 100 percent certain to work, even this "classical" stuff.

Finally, let's address this "certainty" thing. You're right about that. You can't anticipate how the attack is going to be delivered because when you do that and deploy your defense in anticipation, you will be fooled, no question. 

But the fact is, the average knife attack is in many ways predicable. Your average knifer tends to deliver blows in two ways: 1) the thrust from below in the forward grip to the heart or abdomen and 2) downward to the head and upper body with the icepick grip. The video evidence and the testimony I have received from people at the sharp end is consistent with this.

Here is a typical example of a knife attack which I've already posted but will post again: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related

Note the commitment behind the blow. Note how it is delivered. Note that the knifer doesn't change his general target while making repeated strikes. Note also that the victim defeated the attack even though he was wounded by gaining control of the attacker's arm and disarming him (altho the disarm is not seen).

Given that the average attack comes in either of these flavors, the majority of the medieval fight books, for instance, showing knife defenses describe defenses only for these types of attacks.

Of course, the attack may travel a different path, but if you have trained for the two basic ones, you can adapt to the attack as it unfolds and change your response to fit the situation. This assumes you see the attack coming and have time to react.

At the end of the day, this "classical" stuff is about how to defend yourself against the average knifer. It's not about how to defend yourself against the escrimador.

The mistake the two guys in the video that started this thread made is that they assume most knife attacks will be made as they make them. The facts don't support this assumption. They shouldn't have argued "these defenses are stupid and don't work." Instead, they should have argued "these defenses don't work against me." It is must harder to refute the latter argument, for a cautious knifer who anticipates a defense, who holds back and doesn't commit, who snipes away, who feints, weaves and dodges, is a really dangerous animal.


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## hafoc

sgtmac_46 said:


> The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.


 
A useful book. James LaFond's "The Logic of Steel" is probably better, tho. LaFond agrees that there is an "average" attack. He concludes after reviewing a mountain of evidence in Baltimore, that on the street, if the knife is deployed from the right front pocket it "will be used to stab up the center under the ribs." If it is deployed from the rear pocket or a case, these "tend to be used for an inward turning stab or a cut to the left side of the body." p. 80. "Virtually all blade and shank altercations are one-dimensional: with an armed party using a single posture and technique againt an unarmed party. . . . It's usually one way, all the way." p. 21. "Blade use tends to be pretty one-dimensional -- one way all the way, stab, stab, stab, stab!" p. 96.


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## jks9199

sgtmac_46 said:


> While 'trawling' the web is good.....i've seen plenty of knife attacks in real life, enough to tell you there IS no 'average knife attack'.
> 
> And if you're counting on your knife attacker to be drunk like the guy in the video......well, HOPE is not a plan of action.
> 
> I'll reiterate.....the problem I have with your comments is the surety that you know what the 'average knife attack' looks like. You're operating on a set of assumptions.......we're not even arguing about particular techniques.
> 
> The best thing you can do is perhaps find yourself a copy of the classic 'Surviving Edged Weapons' and at least alleviate yourself of the illusion of the 'average' knife attack.


Looking at the couple of knife attacks my jurisdiction (where they're thankfully usually rare) has had in the last year, we have slashing attacks, we have stabs (including the throat), we have brandishings, and we have fights that escalated to stabbings.

H'mm...  They seem to be all over the board, don't they?  If I expand it to the region... it just magnifies the diversity.  We have machete attacks, we have a couple of outright knife fights, we have unsuspecting, passive stabbing victims, and we have actively resisting victims.  (I think there was even one outright SWORD attack!)


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## Rich Parsons

hafoc said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me write this in crayon for you guys. The techniques and defense approaches you sneer at are designed to deal with your average knifer, not your kali/escrimador expert who plays with you, feints, slashes and doesn't commit. The fact is, there is virtually nothing an unarmed guy can do against such a crafty and skillful enemy except try to run or pull out his piece. But that is not how the vast majority of knife attacks come down.
> 
> The average knife attack involves 2 key features: 1) it is committed, in that it is not preceded by feints. The guy just drives it home oblivious about any potential defense. 2) If the arm is not immediately controlled, the attacker will strike again and again, using multiple stabs.
> 
> This is a typical knife attack: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BEjKU0p9JZw&feature=related
> 
> If you troll the web, you'll see a lot like them like this.


 

First, I did not sneer at your techniques. You sneered at anyone not doing them your way. I have as much or more data as you do with my limited exposure years ago, and I was able to survive many with single hand passes. You are the one who dismissed and discouraged. I said to keep an open mind.

Second, when you quote me, please quote me. Give me credit for being in disagreement with you. This will also make it easier for people to see the flow of the discussion.

Third, you now state it is nto an absolute for experts, but what should be used by your teachings and experience. This approach up front would have been better, and possible would not have as much of a disagreement factor involved. 


I have seen and faught guys on drugs who did not feel pain. Breaking thier arm/wrist did not stop them. They kept on coming. 

The one thing I know for sure about anything is that there are no absolutes. One can train to minimize the risk factors, one can train to be effective against the common approach, but you should put those disclaimers on there. If someone did your technique and got hurt, their family might bring a court case against you, or worse do something in person. I do not wish this on you or anyone else, which is why I tried to speak in Effective and Efficient and that there is always a counter so people do not walk away believing if they know technique "A" then they are "safe".


Good Luck


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## sgtmac_46

hafoc said:


> A useful book. James LaFond's "The Logic of Steel" is probably better, tho. LaFond agrees that there is an "average" attack. He concludes after reviewing a mountain of evidence in Baltimore, that on the street, if the knife is deployed from the right front pocket it "will be used to stab up the center under the ribs." If it is deployed from the rear pocket or a case, these "tend to be used for an inward turning stab or a cut to the left side of the body." p. 80. "Virtually all blade and shank altercations are one-dimensional: with an armed party using a single posture and technique againt an unarmed party. . . . It's usually one way, all the way." p. 21. "Blade use tends to be pretty one-dimensional -- one way all the way, stab, stab, stab, stab!" p. 96.


 You have to question the veracity of anyone who says 'It's usually one way, all the way'.......with all due respect to James LaFond, the examples he found in his Baltimore neighborhood are by no means an exhaustive analysis of what you're going to run in to. 

There is a certainty in youth that experience tends to demolish......you've got time, hopefully. 

At any rate, good luck!


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## Sandstorm

Some very practical and informative comments on such a delicate subject. I say delicate due to differences in belief at what is/isn't acceptable as defence against the knife in general. 
I have always been a little worried about how brazen some people are/can be with regards to their sequence of planned moves against the armed assailant. I have also been mortified when I see the reaction on students' faces when you tell them there is no real tried and tested answer to dissarming the 'average' attack, simple because there are far too many variables to warrant the use of the word 'average', and that you most certainly should at least expect to uncur damage. Oftentimes, these students move elsewhere to train in another school. Must be a defence mechanism I guess, wanting to believe they can control the situation.

Knives are lethal. They can and will kill you. You face a knife-wielding assailant, you are in a whole new world. It's frightening! Couple your fear, nausea and adrenalin with the blur as your mind adjusts to the scenario, and you've already lost time. That is of course, providing the assailant hasn't already stabbed/slashed you. Your palms, now sweaty, making it difficult to make any form of grab etc etc

To all who have the answers to this scenario, you really don't. There is no answer, only the years you spent training and drilling _may _help you. Then again, they may not. But for christs sake, please do not be so complaicent about the situation. It could and probably will cost you your paralysis/deformation/your life!

Just my 2 pence worth. Nice to be a part of these baords.

Os.


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## Glycerine0160

This thread was a very good read, although I only read a few pages. It really opened my eyes up to what it might really be like. It's actually somewhat ironic because last night I was at this party. Some moronic situation about a girl and guy breaking glass in the house made them all head outside and get rowdy. I had a little to drink, and I went outside with no intentions of anything just to see what was going on. I see these kids getting in each others faces and they are screaming at the top of their lungs at 3 AM. I get in between there little tough struts, and push them apart and tell them to break it up. Well the one kid who broke the glass and started the whole problem threw what I believe to be a hay maker which got me in the ear/cheek bone area. I never really broke up a real potential fight before, I was very naive not to be ready for an attack and quite buzzed. I was also very mad that he hit me given I had nothing to do with it, and I am a very approachable looking person, so therefor, he wanted to just hit someone. So he took off in the fastest sprint and I ran after him but not very intently. Kind of in anger but kind of like, this isn't worth it. So he gets way out of range and I'm just slowly walking now just about to turn around. (none of the kids who would of been on my side were really near me) So this kid's friend, goes into his car, and puts on a show he's getting a gun. I must admit, I was worried but I was not able to discern the severity or authenticity of the situation. I immediately took my karambit out of its holster and put it in my pocket with my hand on it. The kid who was playing like he had a gun was shouting "who has a problem with my boy" as he had his right hand vested into his jacket. He came up to me and asked if I had a problem. I easily decided, if he has a gun, I will stab him but I'm not going to instigate this. If he doesn't, well my mind is so set on stabbing, I think that will be my only option. So I told him his friendpunched me and I had nothing to do with this and to chill out. Not to mention, I"m going for law enforcement and I want to avoid trouble. Actually, I'm not going to parties anymore I decideded. It just makes too much risk for a person aiming for law enforcement to be gambling.


Just wanted to get that story out.
Great tip on the Quik Clot.
I think I will aim to buy this relatively soon.


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## Jeff Richardson

Todd has issued some good advice here in the early posts.  The problem I see with those first video's is not only the distance problem others have pointed out.  The unarmed guy should not be hanging in that distance at all.  But also in a two handed grab you should be moving to his outside and putting his arm between you and his other arm while attacking and breaking things.

Grab both hands steppig to the outside, then control his elbow by leveraging it against your arm, shoulder or side.  Control the wrist with a lock if you have the chance.  Then break some joint and/or disarm him.

Knife fighting is nasty business, best to just accept that if you can't run you may get cut or stabbed and just deal with that reality. I don't care if you are unarmed or you both have knives... that's the reality.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Rich Parsons said:


> The one thing I know for sure about anything is that there are *no absolutes*. One can train to minimize the risk factors, one can train to be effective against the common approach, but you should put those disclaimers on there. If someone did your technique and got hurt, their family might bring a court case against you, or worse do something in person. I do not wish this on you or anyone else, which is why I tried to speak in Effective and Efficient and that there is always a counter so people do not walk away believing if they know technique "A" then they are "safe".
> 
> 
> Good Luck



*No Absolutes*....... now that is a term that is right on the money regarding all martial practices, attacks, etc! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I say this all the time when I am training and teaching.  It is also one more reason why you need to have options or variations built into your training!


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