# MMA Rules: More restrictive than people think?



## neoinarien (May 9, 2008)

As I understand it the extent of rules in most MMA (UFC, etc) are:

No eye gouging
No groin shots
No biting
(in UFC, no kicking an opponent when down)

So why not more pressure point attacks, etc?

Are there any other rules/restrictions?


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## D Dempsey (May 10, 2008)

How is that restrictive?  You have to place the safety of the fighters first or you won't have anyone competing and the sport would still have the stigma of being a blood bath.  
Here is the complete listing of fouls for the UFC:
from www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules

1.   Butting with the head. 
2.   Eye gouging of any kind. 
3.   Biting. 
4.   Hair pulling. 
5.   Fish hooking. 
6.   Groin attacks of any kind. 
7.   Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. 
8.   Small joint manipulation (fingers). 
9.   Striking to the spine or the back of the head. 
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow. 
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea. 
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. 
13. Grabbing the clavicle. 
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. 
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. 
16. Stomping a grounded opponent. 
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel. 
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck. 
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area. 
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent. 
21. Spitting at an opponent. 
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent. 
23. Holding the ropes or the fence. 
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area. 
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break. 
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee. 
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat. 
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee. 
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury. 
30. Interference by the corner. 
31. Throwing in the towel during competition. 

As you can see there is nothing specifically mentioning pressure point attacks.
Obviously some organizations have different rules, but most are pretty similar to these.


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## Andrew Green (May 10, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> As I understand it the extent of rules in most MMA (UFC, etc) are:
> 
> No eye gouging
> No groin shots
> ...



Those where the rules in the beginning, when it wasn't a sanctioned sport.  There was also no weight classes, and even no time limits or rounds for a little while.

Since then things have evolved.  There are more rules, as mentioned above.  But some things never got much use, simply because in that environment they don't work.  Pressure points being in that category, there is a rule against there use now, but I don't think its ever been enforced or that anyone would change anything if it got lifted.


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## D Dempsey (May 10, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Pressure points being in that category, there is a rule against there use now, but I don't think its ever been enforced or that anyone would change anything if it got lifted.


No there isn't, what I posted was a full listing of fouls from the UFC.  I might be banned in some other organization but I can't say for sure.


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## Tez3 (May 10, 2008)

Pressure points are allowed just difficult to use in MMA fights. Why that is is probably another discussion. I have a feeling we covered that not so long ago on here?


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## Nolerama (May 10, 2008)

I'd love to see a fighter take his sweet time to remove his mouth guard, and try to bite someone... Then get his face elbowed for the sorry attempt.

What's worse is putting that mouth guard back into his mouth after dropping it...


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## neoinarien (May 10, 2008)

> How is that restrictive? You have to place the safety of the fighters first or you won't have anyone competing and the sport would still have the stigma of being a blood bath. (D Dempsey)



I think it's self-evident how that is restrictive: it literally restricts the fighters from engaging in certain techniques. 

Now, maybe you meant to say, "How is that _too_ restrictive?" This is a different point entirely, and one I would agree with (the rules are _not_ too restrictive). 

Thank you for the rules Dempsey! I've been wondering about this.


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## Andrew Green (May 10, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> No there isn't, what I posted was a full listing of fouls from the UFC.  I might be banned in some other organization but I can't say for sure.




My mistake, I'm quite sure they did have a rule against it at one point.


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## thetruth (May 12, 2008)

I'm positive pressure points have come into play in MMA.  Who is to say that out of all of the KO's that none were due to pressure points being hit and not just the force of the blow?   Having said that, it is impractical to teach pressure points and try to alter strikes to make them target pressure points more.  People tend to have the likes of Dillman and kyusho international in their heads when discussing pressure points. This type of pressure point practice has no place in MMA and would only hinder a fighter rather than help.  I am an advocate of just saying pressure points exist and if you are able to strike the jaw or whereever cleanly then thats great but you should never be able to tell if the PP have caused the damage or whether the force of the strike did.  

I got kicked out of the kyusho international forum for putting forward my opinions on this (PP and MMA) as they just want people who will bow to the way they do things and not question what they do.   

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2008)

thetruth said:


> I'm positive pressure points have come into play in MMA. Who is to say that out of all of the KO's that none were due to pressure points being hit and not just the force of the blow? Having said that, it is impractical to teach pressure points and try to alter strikes to make them target pressure points more. People tend to have the likes of Dillman and kyusho international in their heads when discussing pressure points. This type of pressure point practice has no place in MMA and would only hinder a fighter rather than help. I am an advocate of just saying pressure points exist and if you are able to strike the jaw or whereever cleanly then thats great but you should never be able to tell if the PP have caused the damage or whether the force of the strike did.
> 
> I got kicked out of the kyusho international forum for putting forward my opinions on this (PP and MMA) as they just want people who will bow to the way they do things and not question what they do.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this, a well thought out post. I also agree with D Dempsey's points and I'm sure he posted exactly what he meant.
To be honest I don't understand the OP point, I don't understand what can be too restrictive about rules for a competition. We have rules that enable fighters to compete within certain parameters so they know and understand their safety is paramount. If they know how to use pressure points and are able to use them in a fight good for them, if they don't well that's no problem either. It's not a big deal.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 12, 2008)

Rules are meant there for safety issues as well as other factors.
MMA competition is a sport it is not the street nor tries to be the street for obvious reasons. This is not to say MMA practicers do not train in the banned techniques or pressure pointing it simply means in the ring you follow the rules same as in any other sport.  

If only they changed the rules of Basketball to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O1Gm6NmvZM&feature=related


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2008)

Not sure either.  You can still do ALOT of things in the ring.  Now if they had a rule that said you can only stand on one leg when you punch, then that would be restrictive.

I had heard that when the first UFC's were done, there were other rules that weren't publicized, like the use of pressure points, but don't know if that is just urban legend or not.

People also need to define what EXACTLY they mean by "pressure points".  Are you referring ONLY to accupuncture points? Or do you also mean the "vital spots" (atemi striking) that include targets like the temple, solar plexus, etc.

To see a good use of a vital spot strike, look at the Robbie Lawler vs. Tiki fight in the UFC.  Lawler misses with a hook punch and hits Tiki on the side of the neck with his forearm.  In law enforcement, it is known as a brachial plexus stun.  In PP it would be considered ST-9.  So you can use those types of things to some degree, but it is more of an "added bonus".  But, in the UFC a strike to that area is against the rules.  

I know of an MMA fighter who is also an LEO and when he did some training with us in DT class, he talked about using certain pressure points while on the ground grappling to cause pain and get better positioning.  He even commented on how most fighters aren't aware of them and don't use them to their advanatage.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Not sure either. You can still do ALOT of things in the ring. Now if they had a rule that said you can only stand on one leg when you punch, then that would be restrictive.
> 
> I had heard that when the first UFC's were done, there were other rules that weren't publicized, like the use of pressure points, but don't know if that is just urban legend or not.
> 
> ...


 
It must only be UFC rules, the only place strikes are illegal on other promotions is to the spine and back of the neck. Having said that though a hit to the side of the neck would probably be accidental, it's not such a good target to hit when competively fighting. I agree it would be a bonus if you got it.


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> It must only be UFC rules, the only place strikes are illegal on other promotions is to the spine and back of the neck. Having said that though a hit to the side of the neck would probably be accidental, it's not such a good target to hit when competively fighting. I agree it would be a bonus if you got it.


 

I guess the specific rule is "throat strikes" so I'm not sure if striking the neck area in general would be against the rules.  In this case it was accidental (missed hook punch) and not something that was targeted.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I guess the specific rule is "throat strikes" so I'm not sure if striking the neck area in general would be against the rules. In this case it was accidental (missed hook punch) and not something that was targeted.


 
I think probably a strike to the throat would be fairly difficult as well to be honest when the fights between two pro fighters. One of the reasons that pro fighters don't use a lot of martial arts techniques that others think they should is that in a ring/cage it's a lot more diffucult than you would imagine. It's why tried and tested techniques tend to be kept to and why criticisms are easy to make.
Many years ago I went to watch my first karate kumite competition, I thought I would see all the techniques we'd done in training and was disppointed to see that everyone kept to the basic movements, there were no flying spinning roundhouse kicks or double front kicks just workmanlike kicks and punches! The thing was these work!  
An MMA fight is as Ian "The Machine" Freeman likes to say a game of physical chess, you try to out manouvre your opponent, you stay a couple of moves ahead of him, it's not just a case of meeting in the middle of the cage or ring and firing off random shots. You try a move knowing it will cause him to move a certain way so you can do a certain technique, he will of course be trying to out think you. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple too and not complicating things by trying to get pressure points, as has been said if you get one it's a bonus but it's best to stick to what you know works!


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## Dave Leverich (May 12, 2008)

To respond to the OP's question of why aren't more pressure points used:
I think the reason we don't see more is that some just don't work in that set of circumstances (whether it is due to equipment/gloves, circumstance - sweat etc), some work but aren't allowed (illegal targets), and some is simply due to the lack of knowledge of the techniques.

I actually use some and they work well; IE. head & arm in side mount and you pressure the brachial plexus with your fist, tap in 2.

I've done quite a bit of pressure point work and am continually looking for other ones to implement. The real trick is finding which ones you can 'hold' on people while in a position.


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think probably a strike to the throat would be fairly difficult as well to be honest when the fights between two pro fighters. One of the reasons that pro fighters don't use a lot of martial arts techniques that others think they should is that in a ring/cage it's a lot more diffucult than you would imagine. It's why tried and tested techniques tend to be kept to and why criticisms are easy to make.
> Many years ago I went to watch my first karate kumite competition, I thought I would see all the techniques we'd done in training and was disppointed to see that everyone kept to the basic movements, there were no flying spinning roundhouse kicks or double front kicks just workmanlike kicks and punches! The thing was these work!
> An MMA fight is as Ian "The Machine" Freeman likes to say a game of physical chess, you try to out manouvre your opponent, you stay a couple of moves ahead of him, it's not just a case of meeting in the middle of the cage or ring and firing off random shots. You try a move knowing it will cause him to move a certain way so you can do a certain technique, he will of course be trying to out think you. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple too and not complicating things by trying to get pressure points, as has been said if you get one it's a bonus but it's best to stick to what you know works!


 
I agree.  I have always thought that the higher the skill level of the two combatants, the more basic it will look.  If you have a lot higher level skill than your opponent you have more tools and options to control without having to seriously hurt them.  I read this quote from another website and I can't remember where so I apologize that I can't give proper credit.



> You focus more on cardio and less on new technique when preparing for a fight. If we always trained the way we prepare for a fight, we'd be focusing only on our bread n' butter technique and wouldn't have time to relax, experiment, and grow as a fighter/martial artist.


 
I think that is especially true in MMA.  If you are constantly preparing for a fight you aren't spending alot of time to increase your toolbox and incorporate new things.  You tend to really stick with the basics, but that doesn't mean that other things aren't effective it just means that they aren't bread and butter moves or they are a low percentage against another highly trained fighter.


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## DavidCC (May 12, 2008)

How would you enforce it if they were illegal??

BREAK!  1 point deduction from Ortiz for striking on Liver 14!


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> How would you enforce it if they were illegal??
> 
> BREAK! 1 point deduction from Ortiz for striking on Liver 14!


 

The same way you deal with any illegal move!


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## Skpotamus (May 13, 2008)

One of Dillman's black belts fought in the UFC at one point.  Ryan Parker, UFC 7.  He came it at 235, got tied up and pushed into the cage while trying for pressure points in the neck.  Then got thrown and mounted.  He kept up his pressure poitn attacks to the neck, armpit and ribs, then got pounded into hamburger before getting choked by a forearm across his throat.  


Out of curiousity, does the original poster (or anyone) practice biting, eye gouging, groin striking, and all the other illegal UFC techniques while training full force?  If so, how many training partners have you killed and maimed?

Yes, self defense is different from MMA competition.  For SD I teach my students to eye gouge, groin strike, even bite if the situation calls for it, and teach them how to simulate those actions safely while sparring and drilling, but you can never go full speed on them.  

MMA is a sport with a lot of benefits to realistic training practices, either watch it and enjoy it, watch it and learn from it, or don't watch it.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> One of Dillman's black belts fought in the UFC at one point. Ryan Parker, UFC 7. He came it at 235, got tied up and pushed into the cage while trying for pressure points in the neck. Then got thrown and mounted. He kept up his pressure poitn attacks to the neck, armpit and ribs, then got pounded into hamburger before getting choked by a forearm across his throat.
> 
> 
> Out of curiousity, does the original poster (or anyone) practice biting, eye gouging, groin striking, and all the other illegal UFC techniques while training full force? If so, how many training partners have you killed and maimed?
> ...


 
Exactly! You'd be a fool to attack someone who does MMA so if you do don't expect them to fight to MMA rules! I doubt boxers or MT fighters if attacked outside the ring would keep it strictly to the rules.
As I keep saying, MMA is a sport!! Veiled criticisms of it as a martial art or a self defence art are pointless. Imagine people rushing to defend karate if I posted up that point sparring is too restrictive for self defence or that Olympic TKD has too many rules in it for self defence?


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## thetruth (May 14, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The same way you deal with any illegal move!



Impossible.    If I were to strike someone on st5(jaw) or the gall bladder/liver plexus(ribs) with full force you could not deduct points for that.  If however you were hitting the neck or back of the head in search of PP then it could be a deduction because those areas are illegal to strike anyway.  Robbie Lawler's KO to the neck was an accident which is bound to happen now and again.  Only when these areas become an intentional target can one be penalised.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (May 14, 2008)

exactly... PPs are all over the body and many times are known to pros even if they don't know them to be "pressure points".  

You'd make most body and head shots illegal if you rules out PP strikes,  because you wouldn't have any way to know if the puncher was striking a PP or just punching to the body.  This is almost too silly to even discuss LOL


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## punisher73 (May 14, 2008)

Just think where Bas Rutten would be without his famous LIVER SHOT!!!

PP's should be thought of as an added bonus.  It I punch you full force because I have trained against a live moving target and the punch lands with full force I do damage, if I hit a point that does more damage..BONUS!

I didn't know Ryan Parker was a Dillman BB, I always had heard of him in reference to his "iron vest/shirt" abilities.

I agree with MMA being a sport and NOT self-defense.  Yes, you can use the moves and training for your physical art but you still have to incorporate other methodologies (verbal skills, awareness, etc.) to the mix for SD.  That being said, you need to do the same thing with a TMA before you can say it teaches SD as well.


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## allenjp (May 14, 2008)

Last night while sparring at BJJ class a guy was trying to choke me, but instead just ended up put a ton of pressure on the side of my neck. I don't know if that is a pressure point or not, but it sure hurt like a b****!
I was tapping before he had a chance to adjust his hold, even though he wasn't choking me.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Impossible. If I were to strike someone on st5(jaw) or the gall bladder/liver plexus(ribs) with full force you could not deduct points for that. If however you were hitting the neck or back of the head in search of PP then it could be a deduction because those areas are illegal to strike anyway. Robbie Lawler's KO to the neck was an accident which is bound to happen now and again. Only when these areas become an intentional target can one be penalised.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
The question was "*how would you deal with it if it were illegal*" therefore my answer is correct, the same way you deal with any illegal move. :wink1:


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## DavidCC (May 14, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Last night while sparring at BJJ class a guy was trying to choke me, but instead just ended up put a ton of pressure on the side of my neck. I don't know if that is a pressure point or not, but it sure hurt like a b****!
> I was tapping before he had a chance to adjust his hold, even though he wasn't choking me.


 
it's hard to say, could have been "just" misaligning your neck bones LOL very painful.  But there are many pressure points above the shoulder line that he could have been on too. 

When I started doing grappling I would tap becaue somehting hurt too much.  Now I only tap if that pain is a warning that I am about to be injured.  Which basically just means I suffer through the cross-faces now.

I probably would have tapped in your situation because necks injure easily.


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## neoinarien (May 14, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Out of curiousity, does the original poster (or anyone) practice biting, eye gouging, groin striking, and all the other illegal UFC techniques while training full force?  If so, how many training partners have you killed and maimed?



A pointless question intended to inflame/bait because you know the answer.


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## Skpotamus (May 14, 2008)

Apologies for the "bait", the point of the rhetorical question was to point out that many of the things that are restricted we don't practice full force in training.  We can't or we'd all be crippled instead of just half crippled like most martial artists 
Is MMA a real fight?  No, in a real fight you usually end up with multiple people, big weight differences, you not knowing the fight is going to happen until you've already been hit and weapons.  Not to mention the biting, eye gouging and other nastiness.  
The point is that the things that MMA doesn't allow are things that we don't allow to be used when we train either, at least not with any force behind them.  

Again, it's a combat sport that lets you use more things than any other combat sport out there right now.  Watch it and enjoy it, maybe even try to use it to help your own training by going more live in your training, or don't watch it.


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## thetruth (May 15, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> The question was "*how would you deal with it if it were illegal*" therefore my answer is correct, the same way you deal with any illegal move. :wink1:



Given the amount of pressure points on the body it would make the sport totally redundant if they tried to enforce it.  I am not a PP advocate by any means (I am possibly more anti PP than pro PP) but have trained in them in the past and there are a number of very good targets that could be (and probably are) utilised by fighters in MMA.  As I said it would be impossible to tell especially at the speed strikes occur in a fight.  

Also on another note, Bas Rutten's liver strike wasn't necessarily a PP strike as it is incredibly painful to get hit over the organ regardless of PP

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## MahaKaal (May 15, 2008)

Pressure points on the face are hard to hit if youve got the gloves on, as the force is dissapated over the large surface area.  The main points are on the sides of the nose, above the lips and under the lip, sides of the eyes, between the eyes etc.  These would be hit with different hands/fists/knuckles and im not sure if these are allowed in MMA?


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## DavidCC (May 15, 2008)

I've seen so many KOs on Stomach 5 (side of the jaw) in the UFC I can't even keep track of them.  I met Chuck L, he said that's one of his favorite spots to get someone.

Funny thing is, most of the KOs here come not from crushing blows but from glancing shots or odd-angle hooks.


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## allenjp (May 15, 2008)

I tend to think that the importance of full force sparring can sometimes be overestimated. No doubt it helps and I wouldn't want to be in a training program without it. That said when you are training in techniques that are designed to quickly and seriously injure or kill an opponent you obviously can't train full force because you don't want to injure you're training partner. I think a good example could be the military. Many of their techniques are very dangerous or lethal so obviously they can't spar full force with them. And when they do spar they use a lot of protective equipment. Does that mean that their techniques are ineffective in real situations? I think that most U.S. military that have been involved in H2H combat in Iraq and Afghanistan have ended up injuring or killing, or at least subduing their opponents (I just heard that on the radio, if anyone has stats on that I would be glad to see them). I think the trick is to make your training as realistic as possible without getting hurt. A technique is not necessarily ineffective in a real situation just because you've never applied it on a real resisting opponent before.


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## D Dempsey (May 15, 2008)

allenjp,
Your guess about military H2H is actually pretty inaccurate. The Army's program is pretty heavily based of of BJJ, at least initially.  Later you learn muay thai and some kali based material, but MMA stlyle training is practiced throughout.  Learning it when I was in the Army is what got me in to BJJ.


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## theletch1 (May 15, 2008)

The old Marine Corps training (pre-MCMAP) ALL had an ending technique designed to kill your opponent.  As the missions have changed so, too, have the techniques that are taught. However, this is quite a digression from the original topic of the thread.  Soooo, back to your regularly scheduled thread programming.:uhyeah:


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## Bodhisattva (May 15, 2008)

neoinarien said:


> As I understand it the extent of rules in most MMA (UFC, etc) are:
> 
> No eye gouging
> No groin shots
> ...



The rules are different from fight to fight, depending on what level the MMA competitors are at.  I'm cornerman for a guy tomorrow and no elbows or knees to the head are allowed.  Most MMA Fights allow elbows and knees to the head.

Regardless of whether there are restrictions or not, MMA is still the LEAST RESTRICTIVE ruleset to find out if your art works, or doesn't.

And, the truth is, most of us MMA guys know how to eye gouge, too.  It is not exactly like it's brain surgery.


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## D Dempsey (May 15, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> The old Marine Corps training (pre-MCMAP) ALL had an ending technique designed to kill your opponent.  As the missions have changed so, too, have the techniques that are taught. However, this is quite a digression from the original topic of the thread.  Soooo, back to your regularly scheduled thread programming.:uhyeah:



The Marine Corp much like the Army dropped their old systems because no one trained in it.  The lack of a competitive element meant that it was given no time to be trained.  You can have the greatest system in the world but if no one practices said system, then it isn't worth much.  Now everyone trains and there are unit as well as post competitions.


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## thetruth (May 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I've seen so many KOs on Stomach 5 (side of the jaw) in the UFC I can't even keep track of them.  I met Chuck L, he said that's one of his favorite spots to get someone.
> 
> Funny thing is, most of the KOs here come not from crushing blows but from glancing shots or odd-angle hooks.



Yes but he is still trying to take the guys head off so it must still be considered a classic strike because he never tries to glance an opponent it just turns out that way just as robbie lawlers stike to tiki's neck was.


Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## DavidCC (May 16, 2008)

I can't imagine anyone foolish enough to intend to land a glancing blow. Or foolish enough to believe that some would so intend :/


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## allenjp (May 20, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> allenjp,
> Your guess about military H2H is actually pretty inaccurate. The Army's program is pretty heavily based of of BJJ, at least initially. Later you learn muay thai and some kali based material, but MMA stlyle training is practiced throughout. Learning it when I was in the Army is what got me in to BJJ.


 
Interesting...but I found this link: http://www.livingvalues.com/theme2008.html

in which is shown a picture of a Bujinkan instructor teaching wrist locks to the Marines. 

And also this: 




which is a video of marines learing wrist lock take downs.

These are from the MCMAP system, not the old LINE system.

In other threads, wrist locks have been denounced as something that "doesn't work" kind of like PP's here. All I'm saying is that if these techniques such as wrist locks, PP's and the like don't work in real situations and have no hope of working because they are not practiced at full stregnth and speed against fully resisting opponents, why are they being taught to the military (at least the Marines) who have more need than anyone of learning techniques that work in REAL COMBAT situations? Could it perhaps be because someone may have actually used them in real combat before and found out they do work in the right situation?


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## allenjp (May 20, 2008)

Oh, and there's this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uNRgeRUgL4&NR=1

I have seen a lot of MMA fights and I have never seen anyone pull this one off, and it doesn't look like they are doing it full force and speed against fully resisting opponents either. Does that mean it "doesn't work"?

Correction:
I have seen one knee bar pulled off successfully in MMA; Ken Shamrock submitted Bas Rutten with one in Pancrase, but it wasn't a "rolling kneebar" where they were standing to begin with, it was executed from the ground.


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## Skpotamus (May 20, 2008)

http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats.asp?stats_page=kneebar_wins_overall.asp

A list of all of the sherdog.com listed wins by kneebar, which are quite a few, kneebars and leg locks in general weren't a part of BJJ until fairly recently, and even then not a huge part.  Oleg Taktarov has several wins by rolling kneebar, including one against Mark Kerr.  


They said it best on the video, they can use the techniques lethal or non lethal depending on the mission requirements.  "50 years ago every move a marine learned was designed to kill, but on tours of duty today a marine might have to do anything from crowd control to keeping an enemy alive for questioning, so every MCMAP move must be adaptable to different environments and different needs.  MCMAP started in 2001 for the marine corps.  

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1462151077277855734

is a video of the MACP program that was based on BJJ, 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Combatives_School   a link to the page with info about it, started for the army in 2000.


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## D Dempsey (May 21, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Interesting...but I found this link: http://www.livingvalues.com/theme2008.html
> 
> in which is shown a picture of a Bujinkan instructor teaching wrist locks to the Marines.
> 
> ...



I admittedly don't know much about the Marine Corps program, as I was in the Army, so that was informative.  I think Jack Hoban was an used as advisor in the formation of the Marine Corps program so that picture makes a lot of sense.
Another thing to consider while we discussing it, is that the individual units can train in anything they want as long as the standard combatives curriculum is taught as well.  When I was at Ft. Bliss I saw guys brought in to teach unit Krav Maga and other material.  My unit brought in two of the local BJJ instructors to do a seminar and was trying to set up a seminar in a style similar to systema, but that didn't work out due to funding.  That is how you end up seeing so many teachers claiming that they taught the military something.  They're were basically a contract instructor and not the actual go to guy for combatives.


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## thetruth (May 21, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I can't imagine anyone foolish enough to intend to land a glancing blow. Or foolish enough to believe that some would so intend :/



No but at full speed and power (referring to the odd angle shots) one can only assume that stomach 5(or any other point) came into play.  There is no way to determine whether pressure points or blunt force trauma were what caused the KO.  Even glancing blows are not necessarily PP related as they can cause brain twist and the like if the head is made to twist as such.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2008)

In amateur rules MMA there are no head shots so trying to use pressure points on the head and face by punching is redundant.
Personally I hate knee bars and calf crushes as well as ankle locks....they hurt LOL!
I think I shall now boast I've taught the military as most of my students are soldiers! Ended up taking one of them to hospital last night, dislocated right shoulder. No pressure points used just a bad landing on a takedown.


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## D Dempsey (May 21, 2008)

No head shots in amateur MMA?  I think that depends on the fight location.  Where I live there are no head shots on the the ground, but during stand-up it's perfectly fine.  They also do standing 8 counts here, which I think is idiotic.


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> No head shots in amateur MMA? I think that depends on the fight location. Where I live there are no head shots on the the ground, but during stand-up it's perfectly fine. They also do standing 8 counts here, which I think is idiotic.


 
In the UK amateur MMA is without headshots, there is one promotion that will do headshots but they use different more padded gloves not MMA ones. Headshots standing is semi pro rules here. No one here does a standing count.


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## D Dempsey (May 21, 2008)

Generally it's determined by the state.  Almost none of them do standing 8 counts.  I did forget to mention that ammy MMA here is done with heavier gloves, 6 oz. I believe.


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> Generally it's determined by the state. Almost none of them do standing 8 counts. I did forget to mention that ammy MMA here is done with heavier gloves, 6 oz. I believe.


 
We have no ruling bodies nor any official controls whatsoever so fighters are reliant on the promoters good faith. However being a very small sport over here we do tend to know each other and know who to trust and whp not too. A good reputation as a promoter is invaluable. We have had some not very good promotions but it has tended to be more on the money side rathe than rules.


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## Dave Leverich (May 21, 2008)

Rules in the states are working towards a 'common ground' for both pro and amateur levels, that's definitely one thing the UFC has helped further by leaps and bounds.

In Oregon, AM fighters can't elbow to the head, I think a couple more, but it's very close to full pro rules.


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## allenjp (May 21, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> http://www.sherdog.com/stats/fightstats.asp?stats_page=kneebar_wins_overall.asp
> 
> A list of all of the sherdog.com listed wins by kneebar, which are quite a few, kneebars and leg locks in general weren't a part of BJJ until fairly recently, and even then not a huge part. Oleg Taktarov has several wins by rolling kneebar, including one against Mark Kerr.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the info about kneebar submissions in mma, that is informative. However, if you notice, I didn't say anything about what system the MCMAP is based on. It could be primarily BJJ, I don't know. I train BJJ, and I think it is obviously a very useful and potentially lethal art in the right circumstances (one on one, unarmed, on a favorable surface). Nor did I say anything at all about all of the techniques being lethal or not. *My* point is that they do learn techniques that they can't practice at full force and speed with a fully resisting opponent, and they expect to be able to use those techniques when in potentially deadly situations. Things like PP's, wrist locks, and moves meant to cripple or kill cannot be "sparred" with, and as such many people on these threads contend that they are useless in real situations. All I'm saying is that if the military (which has more experience in lethal confrontations than anybody) is training them and expecting to use them when they really NEED to, they might just work...just logical to me. BTW, on this thread most people have been discussing PP's as something to be struck with a punch. I haven't trained in PP's but I have always thought that many of them are attacked with constant pressure, not only by hitting them. Am I wrong?


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## crushing (May 21, 2008)

Dave Leverich said:


> Rules in the states are working towards a 'common ground' for both pro and amateur levels, that's definitely one thing the UFC has helped further by leaps and bounds.
> 
> In Oregon, AM fighters can't elbow to the head, I think a couple more, but it's very close to full pro rules.


 
I think it's similar in Michigan with the elbow strikes for amateur fights, plus fighters aren't supposed to hit each other with a closed fist!!!!  So, what they do is take some tissue, fold it over a few times and put the tissue in their palm before getting wrapped.  Technically, with the tissue in there it isn't a closed fist.  Sure, it's a joke (or at least seems like it to me).


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## Tez3 (May 21, 2008)

crushing said:


> I think it's similar in Michigan with the elbow strikes for amateur fights, plus fighters aren't supposed to hit each other with a closed fist!!!! So, what they do is take some tissue, fold it over a few times and put the tissue in their palm before getting wrapped. Technically, with the tissue in there it isn't a closed fist. Sure, it's a joke (or at least seems like it to me).


 
I've never heard of that before, very odd! Mind, for those like me who can do a mean knife and ridge hand strike it would be cool LOL! Not to mention a palm heel strike.
 :btg:

Smiley has nothing to do with post, I just like it lol!


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## allenjp (Jun 3, 2008)

Knife and ridge hand strike??

Sounds like you're getting dangerously close to TMA territory there lol!


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## allenjp (Jun 3, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> In amateur rules MMA there are no head shots so trying to use pressure points on the head and face by punching is redundant.
> Personally I hate knee bars and calf crushes as well as ankle locks....they hurt LOL!
> I think I shall now boast I've taught the military as most of my students are soldiers! Ended up taking one of them to hospital last night, dislocated right shoulder. No pressure points used just a bad landing on a takedown.


 
You can dislocate a shoulder with a pressure point? I gotta learn that one rofl!


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2008)

allenjp said:


> You can dislocate a shoulder with a pressure point? I gotta learn that one rofl!


 
I suppose you could claim it was hitting a pressure point as he landed that did it lol! No he was being taken down and landed awkwardly, popped his shoulder right out. Went back easily as the doctor was good.


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## allenjp (Jun 4, 2008)

One key necessity for any serious martial art practitioner: A darn good doctor!


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## DavidCC (Jun 4, 2008)

that's true!  We have 2 MDs and 3 PA's, pretty much any class is going to have some kind of medical professional in it.  We lost 2 med students recently when they had to move away for their residency.  It's very handy!  "that's not broken" or "you should get that checked out" hahaha

it was very conveneint one day, one of the Doc's broek a guy's nose, and he was right there to treat it :/


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## allenjp (Jun 4, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> that's true! We have 2 MDs and 3 PA's, pretty much any class is going to have some kind of medical professional in it. We lost 2 med students recently when they had to move away for their residency. It's very handy! "that's not broken" or "you should get that checked out" hahaha
> 
> it was very conveneint one day, one of the Doc's broek a guy's nose, and he was right there to treat it :/


 
ROFLMAO! That is hilarious! Yeah we have a chiropractor and an LVN that is studying to be an RN, it's kinda useful...


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2008)

I took the lad to hospital with one of the other fighters, the doc put him straight on gas and air for the pain while they took X rays then gave him some morphine as he took him into another room to put the shoulder back, the doc who had a wicked sense of humour came back to where we were for the X rays, the lad I was with asked him if Jay the lad with the shoulder would be alright while the shoulder was being put back, the doc said yeah he'd be fine it was just like childbirth  -loads of screaming and crying! Afraid I fell about laughing!  
Jay was fine though, it went back first attempt much to everyones relief, the pain stopped as soon as it went back leaving just a dull ache. He'll be back training in a little while. The other lad hasn't forgiven me though, Jays his best friend oh and the one that threw him lol!


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