# Who is responible ...?



## J. Lee (Nov 2, 2004)

Who should defend their own home ?
Who has an oppurtunity to create numerous jobs today, in USA ?
Who can afford to leave their electricity on in all five mansions ?
Who owns a personnal 747 ?
Who voted not to support the coalition in 1991 ?
John "flip flop " Kerry

If he should win ??
*-Taxpayers would pay for US Secret Service to guard their Mansions 24 hours a day till he dies!!!*
*-Heinz ketchup is produced at 50 processing plants outside of the USA*
*-The average person turns their electricity off off when we leave their hunting or fishing camp*
*-I do not own any airplanes or jets *
** Neither, BUT i don't publicly complain about save the envoirnment **
*The Kerry's boast about conserving energy !*
*How many SUV's do you own ?*
*-They can afford these luxuries , GOOD ;but, don't squawk about conservation of energy.*
*He speaks of building old relations with former Allies , but voted against the approval of a coalition prior to Desert Storm ?*

*j lee*


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## Flatlander (Nov 2, 2004)

Your colorful, yet weak and unsupported assertions aren't very convincing. 


> *Taxpayers would pay for US Secret Service to guard their Mansions 24 hours a day till he dies!!!*


* What makes you think so? How does this differ from the incumbent?*

I find the rest of the arguments largely insignificant and/or irrelevant.


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

Let's see if I can be as irrelevant / insignificant as you:



			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> Who should defend their own home ?


  Everyone - Kerry fought to do so while Dubya evaded combat.

 


			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> Who has an oppurtunity to create numerous jobs today, in USA ?


  All of the business owners and officers who operate in this country.

 


			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> Who can afford to leave their electricity on in all five mansions ?


  All of the rich folks who keep getting richer under rich white oil men in the presidency.

 


			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> Who owns a personnal 747 ?


 Me. (just kidding) Who has access to AirForce One at his beck and call? Who has a family fortune of his own to do with as he pleases? And I thought it wasn't supposed to be a bad thing to be rich??? Trickle-down economics, you know.

 


			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> Who voted not to support the coalition in 1991 ?


  Lotsa people - what's yer point?

 


			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> John "flip flop " Kerry





			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> If he should win ??
> *-Taxpayers would pay for US Secret Service to guard their Mansions 24 hours a day till he dies!!!*


 All U.S. presidents receive this benefit - George Sr. receives it as does Ford, Carter, Clinton and as did Reagan and Nixon before they passed on.




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *-Heinz ketcup is produced at 50 processing plants outside of the USA*


  Do you own an American made car?  Chances are that you don't and if you do, most of the parts are from Japan.




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *-The average person turns their electricity off off when we leave our hunting or fishing camp*


  I dunno about that - my kids are aweful about electricity.




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *-I do not own any airplanes or jets *
> ** Neither i complain about save the envoirnment **
> *The Kerry's boast about conserving energy !*


  As well any responsible American should.  I boast about it. 




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *How many SUV's do you own ?*


  I own a Chrysler minivan that sucks gasoline from other cars on the road when I pass by them.




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *-They can afford these luxuries , GOOD ;but, don't squawk about conservation.*


  Yeah, let's not encourage Americans to be responsible - that would be a huge pity.




			
				J. Lee said:
			
		

> *He speaks of building old relations with former Allies , but voted against the approval of a coalition prior to Desert Storm ?*


  Do you know anything about the details of that?  Were there alliances that would be built that were inappropriate?


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## michaeledward (Nov 2, 2004)

And you think that because John Kerry is a 'Rich Guy', we should vote for George Bush, who, by the way, is also a 'Rich Guy'?

Nothing you argue about against Kerry is any different than Bush. Oh, sure, the names are changed, to protect the innocent, but 'Rich People' live like 'Rich People'. 

Don't worry, you and I don't ever have a chance of becoming a 'Rich Guy'. The Bush family has made certain of that for the past century.

Thanks for Posting, though.


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## J. Lee (Nov 2, 2004)

It is well known that former Presidents have US Secret Service protecting them around the clock .
How many own *FIVE MANSIONS ?*
*To make an educated guess , we can only look to the past way the man has voted in 20 years as a Senator !!*


*j lee*


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## michaeledward (Nov 2, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> *To make an educated guess , we can only look to the past way the man has voted in 20 years as a Senator !!*


I like that clever stuff you do with the fonts ... all those colors, and different sizes ... how do you do that?

Oh, by the way ... we can do more than "only" look to the past, we can also reason and observe and listen. We can compare and contrast.

Oh, we are marvelous creatures, we homo sapiens. We have evolved out of stuff of stars to whine and complain about a man has served his country for his entire life.

Cool.

Thanks for posting. Mike


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## Flatlander (Nov 2, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> It is well known that former Presidents have US Secret Service protecting them around the clock .
> How many own *FIVE MANSIONS ?*
> *To make an educated guess , we can only look to the past way the man has voted in 20 years as a Senator !!*
> 
> ...


I still fail to see the relevance of this point. Does mansion ownership affect one's ability to govern a nation in a negative way? How does it do this?


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> It is well known that former Presidents have US Secret Service protecting them around the clock .
> How many own *FIVE MANSIONS ?*
> *To make an educated guess , we can only look to the past way the man has voted in 20 years as a Senator !!*
> 
> ...


 Do you have a link to the voting records of the Congress?  Also - do you have a link to the EXACT language of the bills when they are voted, the line items tacked on to the bottom of irrelevant legislations, etcetera?

 I'd like to peruse them and find out why my candidate voted against things I might support - not that it has anything to do with a line item added onto the bottom like the repeal of abortion rights or anything like that....

 Seriously - anyone?  Is there an internet link to ALL the congressional voting records? or at least the ones in the last five years or so?  They are generally published in the newspaper daily, but that's a lot of paper to go through and the paper doesn't give line item addons, either.


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

Hey, Flatlander ... did you know the Kerry's own FIVE MANSIONS???

 I wonder if any of those belong to the Heinz estate and if Kerry and his wife have a prenup?  Ah, well, *it's none of my business anyway*, right?


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## J. Lee (Nov 2, 2004)

www.booknotes.org/home/index.asp
look to the bottom for a choice of topics 
ie. C-Span ...

j lee


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

That's a nice link - but not what I asked for.

 Oh, I know what this is - a distraction to keep anybody but Republican from getting out to vote.

 Bye!!


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## michaeledward (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Seriously - anyone? Is there an internet link to ALL the congressional voting records? or at least the ones in the last five years or so? They are generally published in the newspaper daily, but that's a lot of paper to go through and the paper doesn't give line item addons, either.


 
This is a good place to review Senator Kerry's votes.
http://kerry.senate.gov/bandwidth/issues/legislation.html

If you are looking for specifics on other senators, start here:

www.senate.gov

If you are looking for specifics on representatives, start here

www.house.gov

Good Luck.

Mike


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## J. Lee (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> a line item added onto the bottom like the repeal of abortion rights or anything like that....


I left out abortion & same sex marriage on purpose

John Jay ( this nation's FIRST Supreme Court Justice ) " We should appoint only Christians as Judges "

Kerry is a Catholic which is against Abortion & Same sex marriage 

So if it doesn't fit our lifestyle or opinion , " We can just delete it "

Nevermind the moral consequences of the Immediate Future .
j lee


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## heretic888 (Nov 2, 2004)

These are typical of among the most amusing arguments that uninformed Bush supporters like to bandy about:

"Don't vote for Kerry and Edwards because they're filthy rich millionares!!"

To which, the appropriate response is, "Yes, because the former CEO of Halliburton and the heir to the Bush family fortune aren't rich at all. Nope."

None of which, by the way, has anything to do with who would make a better executive leader of the country.


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## J. Lee (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> That's a nice link - but not what I asked for...
> 
> Bye!!


Very convienent . DO The research 

j lee


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## MisterMike (Nov 2, 2004)

:lurk: 


Well, I guess we'll know what the polls decide, well, barring any Democrat lawsuits, 12 hours or so.

I'm betting on at least a lawsuit in each battleground state.

I think Ohio already had one...


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 2, 2004)

J Lee, I find your posts ridiculous. And, whether you like it or not, trying to make "arguments" as you are is only harming the guy you are supporting, but coming off as... well, the way you are.



> I left out abortion & same sex marriage on purpose
> 
> John Jay ( this nation's FIRST Supreme Court Justice ) " We should appoint only Christians as Judges "


Wow, I should totally believe John Jay and not listen to my own opinion at all! Hey, wait, John Kerry is a devout Christian....but he and Bush are not up for being appointed as Judges.... hmmmm. So everyone that Bush appoints is a Christian? Isn't that biased and, well, bigoted?

Your ridiculous posts about energy conservation and wealth clearly have not footing in reality. Have you not noticed that the current Veep's company (which still keeps him on their payroll) won the no-big contract for Iraqi oil? Hmm. Interesting. I guess we know who's going to be making money off of this war, and off of the general American dependence on foreign oil. 

Please.

ETA: 





> barring any Democrat lawsuits


I'm sure the Repubs are at the ready with their suites of lawyers as well.


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## someguy (Nov 2, 2004)

I'm still amaazed at how well the flip flop thing caught.  Also how much BS it is.
Kerry may not be the best but Bush is worse.


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## loki09789 (Nov 2, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> J Lee, I find your posts ridiculous. And, whether you like it or not, trying to make "arguments" as you are is only harming the guy you are supporting, but coming off as... well, the way you are.
> 
> but he and Bush are not up for being appointed as Judges.... hmmmm. So everyone that Bush appoints is a Christian? Isn't that biased and, well, bigoted?
> 
> ...


Though I agree with the spirit of your post and attitude toward this thread, to say that it is automatically bigotry if a POTUS appoints 'christian' judges is not totally on.  Since the majority of 'faith people' in the USA are "Christian" even now, it is a likelyhood that judges will be Christian.

Now, if the FIRST and ONLY reason people are being appointed is because of Christian practice and issues of balancing the Supreme court so that they are not all 'yes men' or purposely excluding a judge who is Buddhist/Muslim or what ever based on that factor is going to be a very Bigotous practice.

It might be bias to assume that just because a judge is Christian, that is the prime motivator in their selection.


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## heretic888 (Nov 2, 2004)

> I'm still amaazed at how well the flip flop thing caught. Also how much BS it is.



Its not that surprising, if you take a look at the conduct of the Republican "truth squads" over the past two or so years.


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## loki09789 (Nov 2, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> I'm still amaazed at how well the flip flop thing caught. Also how much BS it is.
> Kerry may not be the best but Bush is worse.


I am not alone in my "lesser of two evils" view on this years vote!

Hi, my names Paul and this is my first session with the "Disillusioned voters Survivors group".

"Hi, Paul!"

But, honestly, regardless of who was POTUS in the past 4 years, wouldn't there be all kinds of heat bout what he did/didnt' do when there is just as much 'beyond his control' issues that are being blamed on Bush?

It was the same with Carter and the Iranian hostage issue, the gas prices and such.... the price of being the leader.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hey, Flatlander ... did you know the Kerry's own FIVE MANSIONS???
> 
> I wonder if any of those belong to the Heinz estate and if Kerry and his wife have a prenup?  Ah, well, *it's none of my business anyway*, right?



Actually , there is a Prenuputial agreement. History Channel special, I saw after, the Democratic primaries.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Do you own an American made car?  Chances are that you don't and if you do, most of the parts are from Japan.



Check the VIN ** Vehicle Identiification number ** of the vehicle. If the vehicle can get a license plate then it has one.

If it does not have a "1" as the first character then it was assembled outside the US. 

Also check the new "stickers" on vehicles as they list the contentof the parts made in the USA.

Some of the Japanese manufacturers have assembly plants here in the USA and they have as much if not more content from the US in thse vehicles.

Some might say this is good publicity. It is good business, to move jobs and business around, with the fluctuation of markets, you can adjust volumes of vehicles built, depending upon the value of the local currency of assembly of manufacturer.


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## michaeledward (Nov 2, 2004)

Rich, doesn't a 1 in the first position of the VIN indicate the vehicle was assembled inside the United States?

Of course, the Maroni sticker must indicate the proportion of components manufactured in the United States, and not in the United States. So, even vehicles with a '1' VIN could have a significant quantaty of components from overseas.

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> I left out abortion & same sex marriage on purpose
> 
> Yes, a local Republican group was caught calling people in a strong Democratic areas, making stements such as: "Vote for Kerry, becase he supports Gay Marriages"
> 
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Rich, doesn't a 1 in the first position of the VIN indicate the vehicle was assembled inside the United States?



Mike,

That is correct.

I thought I used the negative upfront, and then the "outside", hence a double negative.

I could have said for simplicity I see now, that if the Vehicle has a "1" then it was assembled inside the USA.

As opposed to :


> If it does not have a "1" as the first character then it was assembled outside the US.





			
				michaeledward said:
			
		

> Of course, the Maroni sticker must indicate the proportion of components manufactured in the United States, and not in the United States. So, even vehicles with a '1' VIN could have a significant quantaty of components from overseas.
> 
> Mike



Yes, if it is assembled here in the USA still can have lots of content outside of the USA. Now there is a catch to this. Let is say car company hires another company to make a sub assembly. The Sub-assembly, may be assembled in the USA and all of its components are from outside the USA. So the location of the Sub Assembly is from within the USA. I think this is used to shift the data. I could be wrong.


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 2, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Though I agree with the spirit of your post and attitude toward this thread, to say that it is automatically bigotry if a POTUS appoints 'christian' judges is not totally on. Since the majority of 'faith people' in the USA are "Christian" even now, it is a likelyhood that judges will be Christian.
> 
> Now, if the FIRST and ONLY reason people are being appointed is because of Christian practice and issues of balancing the Supreme court so that they are not all 'yes men' or purposely excluding a judge who is Buddhist/Muslim or what ever based on that factor is going to be a very Bigotous practice.
> 
> It might be bias to assume that just because a judge is Christian, that is the prime motivator in their selection.


Paul -

This is true, and you phrased it far better than I did.  It's not automatically bigotry if Christians *happen* to be appointed, but it is if there is selection based on that criteria.


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## loki09789 (Nov 2, 2004)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Paul -
> 
> This is true, and you phrased it far better than I did. It's not automatically bigotry if Christians *happen* to be appointed, but it is if there is selection based on that criteria.


 
Again, I tend to side with your stance/reaction to this whole thread though.  I am openly a Bush supporter and have taken offense at the implication that I am duped, stupid, uninformed, a 'white male power machine advocate' or what ever the anti Bush extreme comments have thrown my way.  I have tried to maintain that my choice is just as reasoned, sound and valid to me as anyone elses is (and more so than some it seems...even when "ahem" they are voting the same direction as I am) regardless of candidate.


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

Paul, please allow me as a registered Democrat to applaud you for approaching your decision with forethought, consideration, education and eloquence rather than what the obvious (I don't count you as "obvious?) Bush supporters resort to. It saddens me whenever parties feel they must stoop to name-calling to defend their candidates and challenge the opposition. You are one who does not do this.

 I respect you much for your conduct along these lines as I think you set a fine example for your brethren in support of George W. Bush. Kudos.

  :asian:  SS


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## Flatlander (Nov 2, 2004)

:asian:  Well said, and agreed.


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## Phoenix44 (Nov 2, 2004)

Wow, great thread.  An illuminating addition to the debate.


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## Tgace (Nov 2, 2004)

I hope this is a sign of "healing" to come. I, as my friend Paul M., am a Bush supporter. However if Kerry wins, I wont be "beside myself". Thats the way our system works. Well played and fairly won. 

I have no problem shaking hands with an opponent after he has beaten me, why should my principals be any different here?

I only hope its a decisive win for either side. I dont want a re-run of last elections 3 ring debacle.


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## loki09789 (Nov 3, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I hope this is a sign of "healing" to come. I, as my friend Paul M., am a Bush supporter. However if Kerry wins, I wont be "beside myself". Thats the way our system works. Well played and fairly won.
> 
> I have no problem shaking hands with an opponent after he has beaten me, why should my principals be any different here?
> 
> I only hope its a decisive win for either side. I dont want a re-run of last elections 3 ring debacle.


In words I know you love (Tom LOVES hip hop/rap talk btw) "tru dat"  about the "good win" in this case.  Isn't that the signature difference between a 'hard fought battle' and a 'fight?'  at the end, when the battle is over (metaphorically in this case) and the outcome is clear, both sides try to behave with dignity and for the over all greater good.  Though it wasn't universally shared in the Civil War, Lincoln is suppose to have declined from 'making the south pay' but was motivated by the desire for healing and reunification...still hasn't happened in some minds, but it is a nice sentiment.


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## J. Lee (Nov 3, 2004)

Will this be Senator Kerry's Finest Hour 
The country voted & I feel it was based on 
Rhetoric vs. Record.
See him speak live at 1pm e.s.t.

Will this be his finest hour of the whole campaign ?

j lee


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## someguy (Nov 3, 2004)

Oh Shall I go say something about Bush and his record of lies.
Nah I won't metion terrorism alquida and iraq.
His seeing and saying the exact opposite of what the CIA and all them folks told him.  Then claiming it was from the intelegence comunity.
Nah I'm to nice to mention that...wait..nah


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## J. Lee (Nov 3, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Oh Shall I go ...record of lies.
> Nah I won't metion terrorism alquida and iraq...
> ...wait..nah


Just go back to the TWO embassy bombings in Africa .
Pres. Clinton BOMBED Iraq with " cruise missiles 
*WHY ???*

*I appreciate everyone's participation & input .*

*j lee*


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## Feisty Mouse (Nov 3, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> Just go back to the TWO embassy bombings in Africa .
> Pres. Clinton BOMBED Iraq with " cruise missiles
> *WHY ???*
> 
> ...


Were you going to answer your own question?  So if Clinton bombed someone, it's got to be OK to wage a war under false pretenses?


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## someguy (Nov 3, 2004)

Umm What I'm saying but not doing a good job saying is Al quida(what is the right spelling for this) and Iraq have no common link.
Yeah I never can done do at thar spellin than right like.  Today don't be one of them exeptions.  I'm just a Ge..Georg...gerogia boys I guess.


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## J. Lee (Nov 3, 2004)

An underground hangar for terrorist training was found 20 miles South of Baghdad.
Pres. Clinton ordered cruise missiles cause his intelligence told him 
of possible terrorist camps .

j lee

Again thanks for input & people willing to protect our borders Abroad,
trying and eliminating attacks on our soil .


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## Flatlander (Nov 3, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> An underground hangar for terrorist training was found 20 miles South of Baghdad.
> Pres. Clinton ordered cruise missiles cause his intelligence told him
> of possible terrorist camps .
> 
> ...


J. Lee, I'm going to request that you endeavour to pose a more specific question, if there is something that you would care to discuss.  When making claims such as you have here, it is generally considered to be more credible if you can provide some type of source or reference for your proposition, that we may be better able to verify the validity, and construct a counter.  This is the way of structured debate.


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## heretic888 (Nov 3, 2004)

J. Lee, the idea of there being any kind of concrete or direct link between Al Queda and Iraq has been categorically disproven. Both the 9/11 Commision Report and a congressional report in regards to WMDs in Iraq saw to that.

The Bush Administration's claims were unfounded and, furthemore, based on sometimes falsified information.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 3, 2004)

*-Heinz ketchup is produced at 50 processing plants outside of the USA*

Teresa Heinz-Kerry does not own the Heinz ketchup company.  She owns less than 4% of the company insofar as stock, having sold most of her shares in 1995.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/heinz.asp



Regards,


Steve


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 3, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> *-Heinz ketchup is produced at 50 processing plants outside of the USA*
> 
> Teresa Heinz-Kerry does not own the Heinz ketchup company.  She owns less than 4% of the company insofar as stock, having sold most of her shares in 1995.
> 
> ...



Steve,

Research. Wow what a wonderful thing. And presented in a readable format, and context. Hmmm, I wonder if I could wish for everyone to do the same?  :idunno: Nah, I should not get my hopes up.    There will always be people who assume the rheotoric they were feed is the only truth, and that everyone else is wrong. So I guess I had better go back to being wrong. 
 :asian:


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## J. Lee (Nov 3, 2004)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> J. Lee, ...pose a more specific question, ...claims such as ... here,...provide some type of source ... that we may be better able to verify the validity, and construct a counter.


It was not a question 
Ahh ... , it was an answer / to / there was no relation in terrorist???

Remember after oral sex scandal : Clinton ORDERED to bomb IRAQ for embassy attacks in Africa ;
He must have thought there was a relation

US Military discovered : Training camp in 2003

then why can't you see/believe that an airplane 
in an underground hangar
was being used to train hijackers ; 
20 miles south of Baghdad

* Possibly " You read only the New York Times " *


My thread was about a candidate & I played alonged & drifted with the majority of posts .
Our discussions are allowed , but leads to little openness on 
my part included.

j lee


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## Tkang_TKD (Nov 3, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> Remember after oral sex scandal : Clinton ORDERED to bomb IRAQ for embassy attacks in Africa ;
> He must have thought there was a relation


Funny. I recall that it was because of Sadams repeated refusals to allow weapons inspectors to do their job. My source: CNN, and real world experience.


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## shesulsa (Nov 3, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> Remember after oral sex scandal : Clinton ORDERED to bomb IRAQ for embassy attacks in Africa ;
> He must have thought there was a relation


 Oh ... gee ... silly me ... I was listening to Rush talking about a "Wag the Dog" situation ... so ... there really was validity in that?

 Guess getting a little honk-honk under the presidential desk clears the mind.

 My bad.


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## heretic888 (Nov 4, 2004)

J. Lee[font=Comic Sans MS said:
			
		

> then why can't you see/believe that an airplane [/font]
> in an underground hangar
> was being used to train hijackers ;
> 20 miles south of Baghdad
> ...



Or, maybe the September 11 Comission Report??


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## someguy (Nov 4, 2004)

Wait Shesulsa you shouldn't watch anything other than Fox news.  If you do the terrorists will get you.  Hmm I think Fox should try that one.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 4, 2004)

*Remember after oral sex scandal : Clinton ORDERED to bomb IRAQ for embassy attacks in Africa * 


No, he did not.  

The retaliatory cruise missile strikes were directed against sites in Afghanistan and Sudan, not Iraq.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/155252.stm

Three words I would suggest you consider before posting:  INTERNET SEARCH ENGINE.  Check your claims before you post.  It'll take about three minutes of your time.


Regards,


Steve


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## shesulsa (Nov 4, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> Wait Shesulsa you shouldn't watch anything other than Fox news. If you do the terrorists will get you. Hmm I think Fox should try that one.


 Yeah, that's the ticket.


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## raedyn (Nov 4, 2004)

The major advantage to posting references and explaining context to your opinions is that you might actually teach someone something, you might acutally _change someone's mind_ when you have a convincing, relevant, backed-up point to make. No, it doesn't always happen. But it can. If nothing else, you can get people to stop and think about what you are saying. To examine their own positions and beliefs. I, for-one, appreciate intelligent discussion that causes me to rethink my own beliefs. But when someone makes unsubstantiated claims, and implies that anyone disagreeing with them is stupid.... well, then I tend to roll my eyes and tune out the catcalls. It just doesn't have a lot of credibility without some support. And without a respectful tone, I don't want to listen to it. So if no one is listening. If the only response you get is ignoring you or belittling you -- what is the point?


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## heretic888 (Nov 4, 2004)

> The major advantage to posting references and explaining context to your opinions is that you might actually teach someone something, you might acutally change someone's mind when you have a convincing, relevant, backed-up point to make. No, it doesn't always happen. But it can.



You'd be surprised. That's happened here to me more than once.


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## Rynocerous (Nov 4, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> That is correct.
> 
> ...


That is very interesting Rich, and Mike. You learn something new every day.

Cheers,

Ryan


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## Rynocerous (Nov 4, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> It was not a question
> Ahh ... , it was an answer / to / there was no relation in terrorist???
> 
> Remember after oral sex scandal : Clinton ORDERED to bomb IRAQ for embassy attacks in Africa ;
> ...


J Lee, obviolusly you missed Flatlander's point. He was basically trying to say that you need to provide fact in order for your debat to hold credibility. You then continue on to make another comment(without any proven fact) about Clinton bombing Iraq due to "Embassy attacks in Africa". I lived in the States in from 2001-2003 and heard of no "Underground Hanger" in which they trained highjackers. Please, if you can provide proof of your statements, I am definately open to listen to your debate.

Cheers,

Ryan


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## J. Lee (Nov 5, 2004)

My facts were in error pertaining to Clinton's retalitory missle strikes .

Iraq claimed the airplane training was counter-terrorism .

j lee


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 5, 2004)

J. Lee said:
			
		

> My facts were in error pertaining to Clinton's retalitory missle strikes .
> 
> Iraq claimed the airplane training was counter-terrorism .
> 
> j lee





They claimed a lot of stuff.  Cite your references.  You keep leaving it up to us to check on this stuff.  Get off your butt and do it yourself if you want anyone to recognize any merit to your claims.


Regards,


Steve


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