# R.O.S.S. vs Systema



## GouRonin

A few people have e-mailed me asking the difference between ROSS and Vlad's Systema.

First of all, Systema in Russia from what I gather means almost any art practiced. They are not big on the names. However in North America and other places Vlad is the first to use the name Systema and so he is widely seen as the man associated with this art.

Vlad's systema is based on the training of the Spetsnaz and the tradiational arts of the Russian people. There are many Systema's in Russia though, ROSS, being one of them. Vlad's is based on "Sokoli Stalina" or "Stalin's Falcons" as the system was trained in by the highest ranking guards to Stalin. The following write up is from the Systema website:

_"These were Stalin's bodyguards while he was in power for almost 30 years until his death in 1953 and then later by the Special Military Operations Units for the highest risk missions in KGB, GRU and other government bodies.
Close protection has always been the most vulnerable and challenging area in martial arts. The goal of Stalin's Falcons was to have a system that combined all the best components on all three levels of human abilities - the physical, the psychological and the psychic. But most importantly, the aim was to develop tactics that would not look like martial actions, yet remain so subtle, that when they were applied it would be barely possible to see what happened and how.
Needless to say, this System was kept away from the public by the Russian authorities. In fact, when the Communists came to power in 1917, they suppressed all national traditions. It is only since the late 1980s, with the fall of the Communist era, that these martial traditions and styles started to become available."_

So While the main army learned Sambo work the Spetnaz was learning Systema style work. From what I understand ROSS is based on the Sambo/Judo work. Systema does include this but continues past it.


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## Klondike93

I asked my instructor about ROSS, specifically the guy that has the school in Atlanta I think it is and all he'd say is "don't get me started on that".

You know anything about him Gou?


:asian:


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## Roland

..but it looks more technique focused, whle Vlad's I find is about realxing, and accepting what YOU can do. He gives ideas, but expects you to move, not like him, he just guides. you have to be your own person, and move how you are able to at the time. It is like he just suggests options to you.
Damn, now that sounds flaky. This is one of those things that talking about, or even seeing, it just seems weird.
You have to experience.


   

Wish I could explain better.


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## GouRonin

I have only seen video. But if your instructor is refering to a guy I think he is, it's a business thing. Don't worry about it.


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## Klondike93

Sounds like more politics I guess, oh well I would stick with systema anyways. Just curious is all.

:asian:


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## Roland

One of the many reasons I like going to Systema, I mean after all the kewl stuff, is that at my level there are no politics to get involved in. Just the pure enjoyment of the training!!

Being a white belt, well, no belt there, is just the best thing ever!


:angel:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *Being a white belt, well, no belt there, is just the best thing ever!*



Is there some sort of certification of instructors or other ranking system in Systema?

It would also be interesting to hear more about ROSS and other "systemas"! I had dinner tonight with a former Russian, now living in the states, and wanted very much to ask him about this sort of thing but as it was a job interview for him I thought it might be rude to focus on my interests.


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## Klondike93

I had heard there were some people trying to certify and structure systema, so it depends on who you go to.

My instructor is trained by Vladimir and he doesn't give out certificates that I know of. I am told how ever that Vlad does know who can teach and who can't.



:asian:


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## GouRonin

Originally Vlad had an instructor certification thing for people wanting to open schools. As far as I know this has not been continued. (I may be wrong) Vlad is well aware who is who and what in systema I am sure.


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## tmanifold

This one has been kicked around on a few other forums I frequent. Scott Sonnon, of ROSS, Said something like....ROSS has more of the hard work while the Systema tends more to the soft stuff.

I gathered then that ROSS is more like an external style, like Hung Gar, and that Systema is more of an internal style, like Pa qua zhang.

Does that make any sense to people? The systema as an internal style makes sense to me but I have only seen the systema vids. Man does Vlad have any bones in his body?

Tony


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *The systema as an internal style makes sense to me but I have only seen the systema vids.  *



I have seen several of the videos and I know just what you mean.


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## shawnm

Hello everyone,

Interesting thread with lots of questions.  Perhaps I can help shed some light on ROSS.

GouRonin, you mention in your first post that you believe that ROSS is "based on the Sambo/Judo work," and that "Systema does include this but continues past it."  As you stated this was your understanding and to be fair to you and the readers of this forum it is not accurate and is a rather simplistic description of ROSS.  Rather than write a description out myself anyone interesting is ROSS can go to www.amerross.com and read some of the info provided there.  A quick look will tell anyone who is really interested that ROSS is far more than a reworking of Sambo or judo.  Understand that Iam not trying to get on your back just offering some light on what ROSS really is.

ROSS is not a technique focused system as Roland has suggested.  Again even a brief look at the ROSS homepage will reveal that one of the things that sets ROSS apart from its contemporaries is that it is a system of principles and performance enhancement not a collection of techniques.

Tmanifold --you mentioned hard and soft work. From my perspective and from what I have heard from Scott, ROSS tries to balance out hard and soft work.  Rather than thinking of ROSS as an external style consider it as a system that explores and makes use of both performance enhancing methods--both internal and external or hard and soft work.

There was also a mention of politics in this thread.  With over sixteen years in the martial arts I have had my share of politics and martial back stabbing.  I am happy to say that I have encountered none of this in ROSS.  Time spent arguing with other martial artists about what style is better and whose teacher could kick whose teachers *** is a waste of time and energy.  Rather than talking about styles and systems in terms of this one VS that one it is more productive to talk about the merits of each.  The VS part is meaningless unless people have an agenda they want to promote.

I hope I was able to offer something of value to this thread.  I encourage anyone interested in ROSS or System to go to the sources and do some research into their systems.  For real info do some real footwork.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by shawnm _
> *GouRonin, you mention in your first post that you believe that ROSS is "based on the Sambo/Judo work," and that "Systema does include this but continues past it."  As you stated this was your understanding and to be fair to you and the readers of this forum it is not accurate and is a rather simplistic description of ROSS.  Rather than write a description out myself anyone interesting is ROSS can go to www.amerross.com and read some of the info provided there.  A quick look will tell anyone who is really interested that ROSS is far more than a reworking of Sambo or judo.  Understand that Iam not trying to get on your back just offering some light on what ROSS really is.*



My understanding of what ROSS is is from having seen what I have via video which because of a judo background grappling wise looked a lot like Judo. That doesn't mean it is and I can accept that.

What I do not accept is the given version of ROSS's history of Systema. However, to argue is fruitless at times as you point out. Cheers.


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## shawnm

> My understanding of what ROSS is is from having seen what I have via video which because of a judo background grappling wise looked a lot like Judo. That doesn't mean it is and I can accept that.



--fair enough and as you say just because it looks that way to you doesn't mean it "is" that way.

As for history and the rest I agree that an argument isn't what this thread needs.  Scott and Vlad to my understanding do not have a problem with one another and I think that their students and those interested in Russian Martial Arts could better spend thier time exploring RMA's and training rather than fighting amonst eachother.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by shawnm _
> *--fair enough and as you say just because it looks that way to you doesn't mean it "is" that way.*



I agree. It only looks that way to me because of my previous exposure to another art.

There is a lot of internal stuff going on at Vlad's for sure. Just the other day he was demonstrating how he could make a person _"dance"_ by punching and affecting an internal organ.


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## Roland

But it seems to me we were all just giving voice to what we had seen or heard of ROSS, and we admitted it was not through much actual experience. We were not trying to slam or make fun of anyone, in fact we were very open to getting information that would fill in any gaps and correct any miconceptions we had.
I think you have taken some of our posts way too seriously here, and tried to fire right back at all by naming the supposed offending indiviuals, us!
Maybe it would have been a little more productive to have your say without trying to make it look like we were slamming you art, and possibly yourself in the process, I assureyou, none of us was trying to do that.
If we hurt your feelings at all, I am sorry that you are such a sensitive guy and hope you will not take such things to heart too often.
As for the politics, really, if you have not seen it, you are turning a blind eye. That is a fact!
And if you can continue to do so, I think that is great, because politics, while always there, just srews things up for everyone.


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## arnisador

This main page is rather busy--could you point us to a particular page at the site for more on the aspects of ROSS you were discussing?


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## shawnm

Roland,



> But it seems to me we were all just giving voice to what we had seen or heard of ROSS, and we admitted it was not through much actual experience. We were not trying to slam or make fun of anyone, in fact we were very open to getting information that would fill in any gaps and correct any misconceptions we had.



I didn't mean to sound defensive in any way, I was only trying as you put it to "fill in some gaps" not only for the people who were posting but for anyone else who might be reading the thread.  

As for my using the names of people and there issue it was just meant to be clear as to who was talking about what.  One of the unfortunate things about forums is that unlike actual conversations it is hard to feel what people are writing, words in a forum often lack inflection and the kind of tone you can get form talking to someone.




> As for the politics, really, if you have not seen it, you are turning a blind eye. That is a fact!



Iam not sure what you are talking about here.  In terms of martial arts politics I have seen plenty as I alluded to in my post.  In terms of politics in ROSS I haven't experienced any and that is a fact.  People individual experiences are just that, individual and they are entitled to them. 



> I am sorry that you are such a sensitive guy and hope you will not take such things to heart too often.



Thanks for your concern.


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## shawnm

arnisador,

It depends on what you are looking for.  If you want some background on ROSS just take some time to flip through the pages at amerros regarding history and of course take a look at the forum.  I would also recomend taking a look at Scott Sonnon's section at www.mixedmartialarts.com  Lots of info on different topics in there regarding ROSS.  The articles sections is full of things to read that will give you insight into ROSS.

And of course if you have specific question regarding ROSS drop Mr. Sonnon a line in either of those forums.


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## arnisador

I'll check it out.


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## Roland

Glad t ohave you on board.
Hope you can get into some good details about your ROSS training!!
Catch you later.


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## Rich_

In case anyone's interested, I'm a ROSS instructor in the UK and our homepage is at http://www.formauk.org


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Rich_ _
> 
> *http://www.formauk.org *



Thanks, this was informative. Can someone say more about _Buza_ (mentioned here?


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## RMAX.tv

http://www.buza.ru/

http://www.tonb.tyumen.ru/~denisov/buza1.htm

http://www.warriors.newmail.ru/buza.htm

I apologize for not having the opportunity to translate for you, but you can find online translators to do the job... or any other Russian language readers on board.  If you have specific questions, feel free to drop me a line at Sonnon@RMAX.tv for I unfortunately rarely have the opportunity to access the WWW any longer.

Also, check out Coach Alexander Retuinskih's "Russian-Style Hand to Hand Combat Manual" which features historical information on Tverian Buza.

Coach Sonnon
www.RMAX.tv


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## shawnm

Nice website Rich


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## sweeper

shawnm, "I encourage anyone interested in ROSS or System to go to the sources and do some research into their systems"

besides the web sites what real info is there to research? It's not like I can go to my local library and look stuff up, and if I don't have a local instructor than what else is there to do (besides look on the web sites) ?


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## arnisador

Wait for a local seiminar I suppose!


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## Roland

Thank you!


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## Rich_

Thanks all... 

Arnisador - Scott's provided some useful links there, there are translators available through foreignword.com (although obviously the English that comes out is a little broken!). 

In short, Buza is an old Russian martial tradition. A lot of the movements in traditional Russian dance (think of Cossack dancing for an idea) contain the combat movements or are conditioning drills for combat. It is also a root influence on the ROSS system.

At its most basic level, it's easiest to teach as escapes from grips; however, the whole system of movement can be built up from this and integrated into a flowing fighting style.

Also, I'd second Scott's recommendation of Gen. Retuinskih's book as a good introduction to the style.


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## shawnm

Sweeper,



> besides the web sites what real info is there to research? It's not like I can go to my local library and look stuff up, and if I don't have a local instructor than what else is there to do (besides look on the web sites)



The websites and the descriptions that they offer are a starting point.  I would then suggest people move on to forums and contacting the individuals from these or any other system personally with your questions.  The next possible step is to take a look at some of the videos that are out there.  In terms of Systema and ROSS there are quite a few on the market.

Talk to different people from these systems, get feedback and most importantly experience the systems any way you can either by video or by attending a seminar.

Before I got interested in ROSS there was no one in Canada to contact. So I took the path of websites, forums, emails to Scott, contacting other ROSS people, videos and then seminars.  That is a lot of research and a lot of time.

hope that helps.


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## Zephyr

I am often reminded of the quote someone of note made, that ROSS is as open, as free and as flexible as Jeet Kun Do in its very application, or maybe more so. . .


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## Arthur

Hi, 

My name is Arthur, I'm pretty new here on this forum. I teach Systema in Massachusetts.

I saw this thread, and felt some of the assumptions made about ROSS by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts were fairly inaccurate. I also felt that some of the stamens by Systema practitioners/enthusiasts about Systema were less than accurate. I felt maybe I should post.

In the past, there were a lot of threads on the web, where these two Russian Martial arts were placed in opposition to each other. Sometimes by innocent ignorance, and sometimes by individuals with an agenda these things happened, the particulars matter not now.

When I see threads like this I can't help but think old wounds that should never have existed may be reopened.

ROSS and Systema are surely different. I see plenty of differences, and I'm sure ROSS practitioners do too. However these two arts also share quite a bit. Both spring from a common culture, science and people. There are movements exhibited by the practitioners of each that can look identical. There are also movements embraced by practitioners of each that are foreign to the other.

The teaching methodologies differ, but if compared to the training paradigm of other nations martial heritage, would look very similar.

Just as we can look at a myriad of Chinese martial arts which vary greatly, yet still have a core of training ideas, the same can be seen in these two Russian Martial Arts.

Unfortunately the communication and interaction between these two camps of Russian Martial Art has been less than ideal. Likely, we will continue to have misperceptions about each others art, until those changes.

I posit that, a more constructive endeavor than answering about ones perceptions of the others art on a web board is to go out and visit with fellow instructors of differing arts within our collective culture of Russian Martial Art.

I'd like to commend Matt Powell of the Kadochinikov System for taking the lead in doing just that. I am now going to write several emails attempting to further that end myself.

Sincerely,
Arthur Sennott


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## SonnyPuzikas

Have to agree with what Arthur said .Would be very sad to see same mistakes made in RMA circle, that plagued most of MA.
Regards,
Sonny Puzikas
Progressive Combat Concepts
Tampa,FL


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## GouRonin

Hiya Sonny. Welcome. What took you guys so long to get here?


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## ksys

Hello folks,

I am not usually one to post on forums, but a student referred me to this forum.  It seems for a while everyone has been saying they wanted an unmoderated forum for RMA discussion...it has happened, and how civil it is!  I congratulate you guys on a good forum!

I want to thank Arthur for his kind words...while on tour with one of my students who is an entertainer, I got the chance to meet with and talk to many great martial artists, and give seminars and clinics in some great place...it was a wonderful learning experience, and I want to thank guys like Arthur who I have spoken with, and hope to work with further in the future.

I think we are seeing a very interesting situation occuring right now...A new martial art culture has come to America, and survived it's initial introduction to work it's way to recognition. That is Russian Martial Art.

It has it's branches in the USA...diversity and many ways one can train in it.  Now, suddenly, we are seeing people and children who instead of going to a karate or tae kwon do class....they are going to Russian martial art class (I teach a few of these lucky kids).  This is an amazing transition...when I look at the first generation of Russian Martial Artist's practicing in America, I am proud to be one of them.  I can't wait to have a child to pass it to them...well, I can wait a little while   

The RMA community is young and prosperous...and it is a great gift to those who practice.  While we are all tasked with the safeguarding the purity of and the protection of our individual styles and systems, we are all part of one greater culture that has been given to us...some by chance, some through just plain bugging people   I'm the first to say I don't agree with some methods, etc., but in the end we are all in one family, and cousins in RMA.  

I think we all recognize the gift that RMA is...each time I teach, I am humbled thinking of what they know in Russia, and thankful to God for the gift He gave me.  I hope, plainly speaking, that in the future petty things like money and ego will not tarnish all of the work done toward the legitimization of RMA in the circles beyond the RMA world.  I would hate to see someone not find the right training, and end up just not training in the Russian arts due to "politics"....and then miss out on such a great gift.  

In saying this, I hope to see in the future a point where we have an RMA festival, where everyone comes together...Systema, ROSS, Kadochnikov System, Sambo schools, the local guy teaching what he learned in Russia, I mean everyone....and we have show our diversity in methods and practices, but unity in Russian Martial Art.

Cheers!

M

ps...our site has had MASSIVE problems, but everything is finally fixed.  Please excuse the mess, as some of you have called and emailed and asked when it will be fixed.  It is!  



:


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## sweeper

> _Originally posted by Zephyr _
> 
> *I am often reminded of the quote someone of note made, that ROSS is as open, as free and as flexible as Jeet Kun Do in its very application, or maybe more so. . . *



I don't know who said that But I have got to say that was on my mind when reading on the ROSS page, To bad I havn't had time, this is one key point of intrest in martial arts for me. One thing tough, it sounded like alot more science went into the creation of ROSS than into the creation of Jeet Kune Do.


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## tmanifold

> _Originally posted by sweeper _
> 
> *
> 
> I don't know who said that But I have got to say that was on my mind when reading on the ROSS page, To bad I havn't had time, this is one key point of intrest in martial arts for me. One thing tough, it sounded like alot more science went into the creation of ROSS than into the creation of Jeet Kune Do. *



I would disagree. Alot of science went in to JKD but it was western science of the 1960-70s. It is well known that the russians went in directions that the west didn't even think about with some area's of science.  Also the ROSS page throws in a lot of Scientific Buzzwords that I think just baffle the non-initiate. I don't argue that these principles were used but the buzzwords may explain why you thought it was more scientific.

Tony


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## Zephyr

well, I think you are both correct

There is no doubt, ROSS has had a great deal of research and science applied to it.  Thus its most present form.

Don't know enough about JKD to say much with certainty,  thus my quote of someone else who did know for sure.

I imagine the two ways would complement each other in practice and training.  I also wonder, and maybe others can answer for me - but would JKD training and ROSS training done weekly overlap on each other in ways that would ideally complement gaps or weaknesses in the other?


Just a thought.


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## Rich_

Interesting points raised... the Jun Fan JKD I've seen had fairly limited input from a strictly scientific point of view - it was all empirically derived by Bruce Lee. I know a lot of modern JKD takes a lot of sports science into account, though. 

There are similarities in the systems, but also significant differences. With their openness to other styles and lack of defined 'curriculum', they both support and benefit from cross-training in other styles, and can both be applied as philosophies to the other styles; a sort of synergy. 

The principal differences between the two lie in the scope (ROSS covers health and movement, JKD covers purely combat), root cultures (Chinese vs. Russian) and, where JKD emphasises technique, ROSS emphasises principles. Thus, if you feel that one aspect or another is not covered by your current training, by all means cross-train in the other!

Oh, and don't be intimidated by scientific buzz-words, the meaning beneath is simple enough! Part of the problem is translating Russian concepts into the English language - just look at how many different translations of words like 'karate' or 'tai chi chuan' can be attempted, just to get across the precise meaning of words that have only imprecise analogues between languages.


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## Roland

About no curriculum, all the people I know who train have it on paper, and can pull it off verbatim, just not eveyone chooses to follow it unless going for instructorship.
And about there be no the technical aspect. If you take a seminar by Guro Dan, there are usually only three or four concepts that he is trying to get across in all the material he covers.
I also know that both Guro Dan and Larry Hartsel study Yoga for their health, as well as the history and culture of the arts they study.
 Not everyone wants the whole pie right away. It takes time to see what is there, and you get to pick and choose what you want to take with you.
Just some thoughts.


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## GouRonin

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> *I also know that both Guro Dan and Larry Hartsel study Yoga for their health, as well as the history and culture of the arts they study.*



When I met Larry Hartsell he and I chatted about boxing and he has quite the extensive history and knowledge about history. Nice guy too.


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## HeartOfLion

For anyone here with experienced with both Systema AND ROSS, what's the difference in teaching methodology?  I've got Vlad's H2H combat tapes and I've also read most of the infos/articles/reviews on Coach Sonnon's website as well as the info on FORMA UK's website.  So I haven't got much experience.  I don't want 'x is better than y' type of discussions, ok.

Cheers all.

PS 

Rich or Shawn, can you use pure ROSS methodology to become a MMA fighter?  What I mean is, WITHOUT any cross-training in other arts like boxing, muay thai, wrestling and BJJ.  From what I understand, ROSS is a system of principles and concepts which could be used to enhance your training as well as being an effective combat system in its' own right.

Coach Sonnon's material seems to be wide wide-randing, covering flow training, impact delivery, takedown training, joint manipulation, conditioning etc.

Rich, is there ROSS seminar soon in Manchester which is open for beginners like me?


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## Rich_

Hi HoL,

I've not personally been to a Systema class, although I mean to sometime; from what I've heard from friends who've done both, they found Systema concentrated more on internalising the movements, while ROSS looked more at practically applying the movements with partner exercises.

As to MMA fighting; I suppose you could; certainly the techniques are there, from all ranges in. However, as I understand it, you need to be practising high-intensity for hours every day with fellow top athletes to be a real MMA contender; I don't know anyone in the UK who trains ROSS to that extent. So in that case, you'd certainly be better off taking the principles and mechanics from ROSS and using it to enhance further training; you can train muay thai or groundfighting of some style or another at least 6 nights a week in most major cities.

I was talking to Matt the other day, he was planning to get a seminar running fairly soon. They're open to all abilities, mostly people with a martial arts background get interested because they're the ones who hear about it. Drop me an email and I'll put you in touch with him, if his details aren't on the site... if you're in the area and free on Wednesdays, go along to the class! Beginners are always welcome.

Roland - I admit my experience of JKD is limited; as I understand it, there are different schools of thought even within the 'style'. Good point about picking and choosing, though; if you don't have the experience to know what to train, you may as well be picking stuff at random out of a book!


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## tmanifold

As a high level sambo coach I would wager that Coach sonnon would be a great guy to train NHB.

Tony


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## RobP

I try to run my Systema classes in the same way as at Vlad's school.  We try and keep every session fresh and interesting and are usually working on a range of things - though sometimes we may spend a few sessions on say, just knife work. 

A typical class will involve a range of exercises, from simple warm ups through to strengthening / stretching. Correct breathing is emphasised throughout, with specific breathing patterns worked .

The bulk of the class will be partner work - one or more partners. Drills range from evading through to working form contact. This may be done against grabs, punches, kicks, or against weapons, knife, stick, occasionally we do some basic gun work. We also do pad work.

As I mentioned we may work against just one partner or sometimes against a group. I also like to throw in some work from seated positions, on the ground, blindfold, etc.

I may show some "techniques" to give the guys some ideas, but we try and free-style it as much as possible. Sticking to the principles is the key thing, then people learn to adapt to the situation as they need to.

The exercises are interspersed throughout the class and, depending on what sort of mood I'm in ;-) may range from fairly light through to intensive.

We finish each class with everyone sitting in a circle passing comments or asking questions about the lesson, that way we get some interesting feedback.


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