# Countering



## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

How or what would be the best counter when someone shoots for your leg(s)?
Or what would be possible counters?


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## Andrew Green (May 23, 2005)

Sprawl.  Anyone that tells you otherwise hasn't done much grappling


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Sprawl. Anyone that tells you otherwise hasn't done much grappling


Thanks for your reply. Although I had performed a few counters to this, I am not familiar with the term.

One of the effective ones I had used, (although I guess it wasnt against a experience grappler), was to shoot my legs a little back/out of the reach and bare down with with either my elbows or chin on or behind the opponent. On another ocassion to quickly bring a knee into the opponent, provided timing is there.

What is meant by sprawling? Do you have a pic of it?


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## Real Position (May 23, 2005)

guillotine choke and sprawl.


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

Real Position said:
			
		

> guillotine choke and sprawl.


Another new term..guillotine choke ...

Is this like getting your arms around his neck?

Do you have a decription? A pic?

Thanks


Richard


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## Andrew Green (May 23, 2005)

See pic for choke

 Sprawl - A picture would over simplify it, as it looks like just dropping to your belly and kicking you legs back.  However that will not stop a good takedown.  What makes it work is the level change and the driving in with the hips. Then there is the underhooks/crossfaces/etc.

 It is a general concept, not a specific technique that is the same every time.  You have to adjust what you do to what the opponent is doing.


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## 47MartialMan (May 23, 2005)

*Thanks* for the pic on the choke. I had seen this before and not know its term.


*A.)*_ However that will not stop a good takedown. What makes it work is the level change and the driving in with the hips. Then there is the underhooks/crossfaces/etc.

_*B.)*_ It is a general concept, not a specific technique that is the same every time. You have to adjust what you do to what the opponent is doing._

*A.)* I very much *AGREE*.

*B.)* I guess it can be applied/thought, for any move, not only in JJ or wrestling.


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## arnisador (May 24, 2005)

Real Position said:
			
		

> guillotine choke and sprawl.


 Yes, two very common responses.


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## 47MartialMan (May 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yes, two very common responses.


Any other(s)?


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2005)

A "Shot" is a a wide range of techniques.

 Depending on exactly what they do, and how well they do it some other options can come up. But usually they rely on poor technique. Sprawling is almost always your best bet. Even going for the choke requires sloppy technique on the other persons part.


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## arnisador (May 24, 2005)

Sprawling is the basic response. For some wild tackles you can flip them, but sprawling is the key idea.


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## Shogun (May 24, 2005)

a few options:

1) sprawl and front face lock, similar to cup and saucer. shocks most pure grapplers. I have got people to try to spin out of the face lock, and land in a mata leao.

2) sprawl and guillotine

3) pull guard (use only if you are good at hook/sit up/butterfly/ etc sweeps)

3) step back and undehook an arm, and flip em onto thier back

4) under/over hook and pull them into an upper body lock (I have had good success with this, mainly because of wrestling/JJJ background)


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## NotQuiteDead (May 24, 2005)

> 1) sprawl and front face lock, similar to cup and saucer. shocks most pure grapplers. I have got people to try to spin out of the face lock, and land in a mata leao.


 Would that be the catch wrestling front face lock?

 Back to the question...
 The main way is to sprawl. From there you can get them into various chokes or neck cranks, shuck them and get behind them, turn them onto their backs, etc. If I were you I'd just find someone who is good at wrestling, bjj, etc. and have them show you how to defend against shots.

 Sometimes you won't be able to sprawl fast enough, and sometimes even when you sprawl they will still be able to pull your legs back in (especially when you're new to grappling), in that situation getting them into your guard is the best you can hope for IMO.


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## Sifu Barry Cuda (May 24, 2005)

Hey guys, one of the main things I teach to counter the shoot is to drop the elevation [ semi sprawl] and push his face to the ground putting both hands on back of his head as he shoots in.Then you can rear mount and go for the rear naked choke. Barry www.combatartsusa.com


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## Knarfan (May 25, 2005)

Hi guys,
I have Another point on the sprawling defense that might help . If you do attempt to sprawl , but the person has managed to grab one or both of your legs & is attempting to pull you in , force your hips in hard & step over flipping them over their feet onto their back & you will end up in the mount position . It's a great way to get the mount quickly . It workes great on people who are agressive , with average grappling abilities . I have to agree though , the best defense is a good sprawl pussing down or with a hard cross face . You can ussually take someones back from there , turn them or knee strike them to the head .  If nothing else you've avoided the takedown
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

Frank


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## Andrew Green (May 25, 2005)

I wouldn't reccomend trying that on someone with decent takedown skills...


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## Knarfan (May 25, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I wouldn't reccomend trying that on someone with decent takedown skills...


It will work on someone with decent takdown skills , but it probably won't work on someone with very good skills . thats why I said aggressive average grappler . There is alot of them around . BTW I'v pulled this move off on some pretty decent grapplers . When it dosen't work I usually end up on my back in the guard . O.K. , maybe it only works on someone with halfway decent takedown skills  :idunno: .

Frank


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## 47MartialMan (May 25, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> a few options:
> 
> 1) sprawl and front face lock, similar to cup and saucer. shocks most pure grapplers. I have got people to try to spin out of the face lock, and land in a mata leao.
> 
> ...


This is interesting;
Any pics of 1 & 3?

Thanks to all who posted


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## nhbSDMF (Jun 15, 2005)

I agree with some of these posts but unless you're in a severe mismatch where the shooter basically has no business shooting some of these tech's aren't going to work. 

Sprawling is the easiest "counter" to the shot you're going to have. Add a lock to it and it gives you a lot of control (front face lock, guillotine, etc.). I personally will use the guillotine and drive straight down with the sprawl driving their head and shoulder into the floor, then go for back control. If you want to get good at countering shots just practice sprawling. Shogun is right on with most of that post. The underhook/overhook combo will work too but you should leave alone until you get some more experience and know what to do with it. If you're good from the guard pull that. The single underhook I wouldn't bother with, it's going to be really hard to get and if you miss you're already down... wait until you're more advanced and use that sparingly (i.e. when an opponent is VERY aggressive and has bad positioning on a shot).

The tech that Sayoc_FF mentioned I really don't see working. I don't mean to be argumentative but if a good grappler has your legs already, the next step is to close distance and suck your hips to them. If you give them that on you're own, you're down. Also, if the grappler has your legs and knows what they're doing you're definitely not stepping into a position to flip them over. Even with a single or heelpick, once they drive or rise the effect of the stepover will be negated. Best case scenerio is an inside single where the stepover leads to a triangle, but only if the shooter is very inexperienced. Again I'm not trying to be a jerk but I've been grappling for a long time and I just can't see that working. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you're trying to explain?  :idunno:


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## KyleShort (Jun 15, 2005)

47MartialMan,

You are asking some very basic questions...have you ever sought out grappling training?  Plugging away at the message board won't get you what you need, so pop into a school and hit the mat 

That being said, here is a link that will whet your appetite:

http://www.bjj.org/techniques/


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