# LEarning to take strikes article



## Paul Genge (Jun 29, 2005)

I have just put an article on learning to takes strikes on my site. It includes the obligatory video clip to illustrate the point.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 13, 2005)

Good in theory. Try it in a street fight when the blows come fast and furious and when you're scared out of your mind. Better off learning how to move your feet and get out of the way, cover up with your arms and do your sit ups. You'll get hit in sparring, let that be your conditioning in how to take shots.

Granted, breathing out is important if you see it coming.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 13, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> Good in theory. Try it in a street fight when the blows come fast and furious and when you're scared out of your mind. Better off learning how to move your feet and get out of the way, cover up with your arms and do your sit ups. You'll get hit in sparring, let that be your conditioning in how to take shots.
> 
> Granted, breathing out is important if you see it coming.


 
way to go kenpo-man


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## Ironman (Aug 13, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> Good in theory. Try it in a street fight when the blows come fast and furious and when you're scared out of your mind. Better off learning how to move your feet and get out of the way, cover up with your arms and do your sit ups. You'll get hit in sparring, let that be your conditioning in how to take shots.
> 
> Granted, breathing out is important if you see it coming.


         I would say it is more than a theory; in Systema people are taught NOT to get scared in actual situations and move with fluidity and relaxation. Ofcourse, this would be a theory if one took the HARD approach to it.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 13, 2005)

Ironman said:
			
		

> I would say it is more than a theory; in Systema people are taught NOT to get scared in actual situations and move with fluidity and relaxation. Ofcourse, this would be a theory if one took the HARD approach to it.


 not from the video's i saw,


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 13, 2005)

oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not *drop, (MOG)* now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video


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## Paul Genge (Aug 13, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not *drop, (MOG)* now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video


Sorry,

I do not understand what your point is.  Please translate into English.....

Thanks,

Paul Genge


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## Ironman (Aug 13, 2005)

seen as how you are a Kempo practioner, this might be of help to you http://integratedfightingsystems.com/default.asp. This site explains some of Systema from a Kempo view point, although i will leave the 'hitting' question to be answered by Paul.


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 13, 2005)

Ironman said:
			
		

> I would say it is more than a theory; in Systema people are taught NOT to get scared in actual situations and move with fluidity and relaxation. Ofcourse, this would be a theory if one took the HARD approach to it.


It's a theory unless they go out, get in street fights and test it out then. I mean no offense to the system and I see some value in the training but I don't think it sets you up for a street fight as well as sparring with some good hard contact would.


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## Ironman (Aug 14, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> It's a theory unless they go out, get in street fights and test it out then. I mean no offense to the system and I see some value in the training but I don't think it sets you up for a street fight as well as sparring with some good hard contact would.


hmm, makes sense then why the Russian special forces train in it. Please do your research on the art before you make redicules comments as to its effectivness and other aspects; even better, attend a seminar or visit a near by school and experience it for your self.


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 14, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not *drop, (MOG)* now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video


MOG is an abbreviation of a Kenpo term meaning Marriage of Gravity. It refers to using body weight coupled with gravities acceleration to maximize downward strikes. 

I guess I'm tired but I don't see the downward hammerfist to the back, which video is this in?

The strikes I did watch were not ideal strikes with respect to my exposure to Systema.  There was to much tension in the delivery of the strikes.

George, if your ever in Central Ohio (Mount Vernon) stop buy the Panther Kenpo Karate studios and I'll be glad to compare technique execution and demonstrate how Systema can enhance American Kenpo. :asian: 

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 14, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> It's a theory unless they go out, get in street fights and test it out then. I mean no offense to the system and I see some value in the training but I don't think it sets you up for a street fight as well as sparring with some good hard contact would.


In my experience, Systema does a better job then most Kenpo schools at teaching its students to not freeze up when suprised or struck hard. Sparring, even freestyle sparring rarely employs a blind side attack as the first strike. Most Kenpo schools , even when practicing a mass attack, take turns movie style rather than truly being attacked on all sides.

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Brad S. (Aug 14, 2005)

"to understand what a strike is , you must know how a strike feels"


Well...according to this criteria you need to experience Systema-type strikes and your question will be answered.

If your only understanding of power generation and the effectiveness of strikes comes from MOG, Back-Up Mass and Torque then the fundamentals of what is going on are outside your field of understanding.


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 14, 2005)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> In my experience, Systema does a better job then most Kenpo schools at teaching its students to not freeze up when suprised or struck hard. Sparring, even freestyle sparring rarely employs a blind side attack as the first strike. Most Kenpo schools , even when practicing a mass attack, take turns movie style rather than truly being attacked on all sides.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


I agree that kenpo doesn't usually teach you how to take a strike. My 200 pound muay thai instructor taught me how to take a strike. Like I said, I see SOME value in the training but I think that in a real situation it would be a little different. Ironman said my statements were ridiculous. Perhaps he would like to quote exactly what I said that was so ridiculous. I actually had a very thorough look over the site he linked and was mostly pretty impressed. Sorry if I insulted you or your style. I actually did the kind of training that is in that video when I took wado ryu years ago. I did a LOT of it. Then I got punched in the stomach while sparring and couldn't breath for awhile. That's where my opinion comes from. Just saying that it's hard when you don't see it coming.


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 14, 2005)

Ironman said:
			
		

> hmm, makes sense then why the Russian special forces train in it.


I watched a documentary on the Russian special forces guys where they broke bottles on their heads and had huge sticks broken on their backs and stomachs. I think that kind of training is a whole different story entirely. If you guys train that hard then I honestly wouldn't want to meet you guys in a street fight. You'd be pretty tough characters if you do the stuff _they_ did. 

Anyone who breaks bottles on their head is tougher than me!!!


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## Ironman (Aug 14, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> I agree that kenpo doesn't usually teach you how to take a strike. My 200 pound muay thai instructor taught me how to take a strike. Like I said, I see SOME value in the training but I think that in a real situation it would be a little different. Ironman said my statements were ridiculous. Perhaps he would like to quote exactly what I said that was so ridiculous. I actually had a very thorough look over the site he linked and was mostly pretty impressed. Sorry if I insulted you or your style. I actually did the kind of training that is in that video when I took wado ryu years ago. I did a LOT of it. Then I got punched in the stomach while sparring and couldn't breath for awhile. That's where my opinion comes from. Just saying that it's hard when you don't see it coming.


Well first of all, there are various systema practioners who have successfuly survived dangerous situtations (i will let them tell it should they wish). The redicules part of your statement is saying that Systema doesn't work when clearly you have never experienced it, and no its not the same as Wado Ryu or any other Soft/ Internal arts, sure it might LOOK the similar but alot of people coming from different backgrounds seem to see something similar in it. Even a Kenpo practioner acknowleges it, what more can you ask for (well a Ferrari maybe). Here are some vidoes that show some 'fast' work:

http://www.systemauk.com/video2.htm  look under class clips!


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 14, 2005)

Kenpo_man said:
			
		

> I agree that kenpo doesn't usually teach you how to take a strike. My 200 pound muay thai instructor taught me how to take a strike. Like I said, I see SOME value in the training but I think that in a real situation it would be a little different. Ironman said my statements were ridiculous. Perhaps he would like to quote exactly what I said that was so ridiculous. I actually had a very thorough look over the site he linked and was mostly pretty impressed. Sorry if I insulted you or your style. I actually did the kind of training that is in that video when I took wado ryu years ago. I did a LOT of it. Then I got punched in the stomach while sparring and couldn't breath for awhile. That's where my opinion comes from. Just saying that it's hard when you don't see it coming.


No insult taken, no hard feelings.

I agree that muay thai helps teach how to take a strike and give back.

Jeff


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 14, 2005)

Brad S. said:
			
		

> "to understand what a strike is , you must know how a strike feels"
> 
> 
> Well...according to this criteria you need to experience Systema-type strikes and your question will be answered.
> ...


ok Brad i'm going to end this stuff right here and now
1. i see that you don"t have a time line on how long you have been in the martial arts.
2 i don't care about what you do , but i see you take my quote and use it.

3. you don't know what you are talking about and thats that, so live with it son
i was doing kenpo when you were in hiding in the bathroom, know who you are talking to before you say crap like that, if you don't like what i said here is my cell # i would be happy to talk to you, 856-229-5697 call me .


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## Jackal (Aug 14, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not *drop, (MOG)* now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video



Could you please point out which video you're referring to here? Perhaps a link? I didn't see the hammer fist on the back. Thanks.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 14, 2005)

Jackal said:
			
		

> Could you please point out which video you're referring to here? Perhaps a link? I didn't see the hammer fist on the back. Thanks.


let me fine it i'll give you the link


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 14, 2005)

Defence against grabs  look in that one i just watched it again.


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## Brad S. (Aug 14, 2005)

_"If you have to ask how come, you won't understand why"_



> ok Brad i'm going to end this stuff right here and now
> 1. i see that you don"t have a time line on how long you have been in the martial arts.
> 2 i don't care about what you do , but i see you take my quote and use it.
> 
> ...


Well, ok.

First time in training has nothing to do with whether or not something is a fact.  There are those who say they have been doing something for 30 years but really they have been doing the same thing for one year 30 times over.  And, yes you presume that I don't know Kenpo but yes I have studied it for over 2 decades and did martial arts before that.   You don't care what I do but you are criticizing another art based on your own experiences.  As for taking your quote, the point was to show you that you are critiquing something it sounds like you have not felt-to reserve judgement.  Vladimir comes to your area frequently so there is your opportunity to check it out.

I see you are wearing the same belt as Mr. Parker and I wonder if he would have acted this way, with such fear and insecurity as to lash out in personal attacks.  I'll ask Edmund when I speak to him.  Guess what I checked it out and I found that what was going on was outside the scope of Kenpo (gasp!).

All I said was that using the criteria you have, from a Kenpo background, you could not evaluate what is going on fairly because there are different principles in use.  That is not a character judgement.


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 15, 2005)

Ironman said:
			
		

> Well first of all, there are various systema practioners who have successfuly survived dangerous situtations (i will let them tell it should they wish). The *redicules* part of your statement is saying that Systema doesn't work when clearly you have never experienced it, and no its not the same as Wado Ryu or any other Soft/ Internal arts, sure it might LOOK the similar but alot of people coming from different backgrounds seem to see something similar in it. Even a Kenpo practioner acknowleges it, what more can you ask for (well a Ferrari maybe).


I never implied that systema practitioners couldn't successfully survive a dangerous situation so there is no need to have them tell me about it. In fact I specifically said "I mean no offence to the system and I see some value in the training (I was referring to the exercise in your video)" In the video, people were practicing breathing out with proper timing so they could absorb the blow, were they not? Well that is what I practiced in wado ryu making it very much the same as what I saw being practiced in the video. Wado Ryu, by the way, is a hardstyle/external offshoot of shotokan karate. If it is Kenpo you are reffering to as _Soft/Internal_, it is actually quite down the middle of soft and hard with a slightly harder approach than a soft one in my opinion.  No, I'm not asking for a Ferrari (unless you have an extra one laying around). I am only stating that I believe it is hard to time the breathing when somebody is firing three, four or five strike combinations at you. I think it more vital to learn good movement so the strikes can be made either glancing (i.e. to learn to "roll with the punches") or dodged altogether. Systema has good movement from what I can see. I have nothing but respect for the style itself and not once intended to imply otherwise.


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2005)

Jackal said:
			
		

> Could you please point out which video you're referring to here? Perhaps a link? I didn't see the hammer fist on the back. Thanks.



I just watched the video in question.  It was about 14 sec. into the clip.  It looked like a hammerfist to me.

Mike


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 15, 2005)

Brad S. said:
			
		

> _"If you have to ask how come, you won't understand why"_
> 
> 
> Well, ok.
> ...


Brad, fear WHAT FEAR?? AND I DID NOT LASH OUT WITH A PERSONAL ATTACK
all i was saying was the tecq that i watched i was not moved by it "THATS ALL" oh and as far as calling ED JR. you want his # or do you want to call Mrs Parker i'll give that to you also, i think if you called me we can come to a better understanding(it's hard for people to know how you feel in here)


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## mj-hi-yah (Aug 15, 2005)

*Mod Note:*

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. 

MJ:asian: ,
MT Moderator


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 15, 2005)

here we go again


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 15, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> oh yes there is something i wanted to add ,i saw that in the video's that when you hit,(there was that hammer fist on the back ) you did not *drop, (MOG)* now please don't take this the wrong way, but where is your power coming from while doing that standing up(like you where in the video


I checked the defense angainst grabs video. (Not the topic of this thread but since you bring up the strike in it.)  That hammerfist had no power but it wasn't meant to. The exercise was on a nonresisting opponent and was just a training exercise. Systema has a tendency to add light taps similar in some ways to kenpo slap checks. These taps are not in and of themselves major strikes but they confuse the nervous system of the opponent and make the other manipulations more effective.

Jeff


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 15, 2005)

thanks jeff, now if only Brad had said that to me and not all the other crap.


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## Jackal (Aug 15, 2005)

Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it _was_ just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality". 

I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.


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## Paul Genge (Aug 15, 2005)

Jackal said:
			
		

> Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it _was_ just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality".
> 
> I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.


Spot on...

Paul Genge


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## Kenpodoc (Aug 15, 2005)

Jackal said:
			
		

> Ahh, I just watched the clip. Kenpodoc had a decent explanation for the movement and it _was_ just an exercise in free movement. I noticed that it wasn't a hammer strike that was delivered, though. To answer the original question, the impact was delivered with the knuckles in a cutting motion rather than pounding with the bottom of the fist. The method for delivering "power" in a strike like that is maximizing the weight of the delivering arm by casting it downward. The goal being to keep enough tension in order for the limb to remain solid, while maintaining enough relaxation so that there is very little muscular tension holding back the weight of the arm. Like a flail, but with more "personality".
> 
> I know everyone is always "Rah-rah!" when it comes to delivering "whole body" power, but the reality is that the concept of delivering whole body power is pretty unrealistic when fighting someone who isn't right in front of you and standing still. If you can develop devistating arm punches while standing on one foot and falling backwards, any body involvement thereafter is just gravy.


This is the "heavy hands" concept which I still do poorly. However when Sonny Puzikas demonstrated it on me it had remarkably effective and painful consequences. 

I practice Kenpo not systema but I find their selective tension and relaxation ideas and drills remarkably effective and useful.

Jeff


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 15, 2005)

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## Brad S. (Aug 15, 2005)

Hey Jesse,

Nice reply.  Very well put.  See you on the floor.


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## SonnyPuzikas (Aug 16, 2005)

Paul posts link to his article about some aspects of developing ability to deal with the strikes. While the subject is very wast and can't possibly be exhausted in one article, Pauls writing is a good primer.
Then an individual with Kenpo background makes a sweeping statement, without understanding the essence of the issue discussed in Pauls article. Adds disclaimer- along the lines of "no disrespect" or something like it...
Then another Kenpo player, who uses a phrase that is very similar to the common saying in Systema ("You have to know how to hold the strike, before you can strike others"- as to the us eof word "hold" instead of "take", "absorb", etc.- different discussion) in his post, cheers the post by the Kenpo comrade (which IMO was lightly challenging in it's nature and wrong in its premises). 
Discussion turns to imaginary gravity strike someone noticed in the video with the question- how come there is no body weight- gravity drop to go along with the strike? 
Then comes along BradS- Systema instructor with couple decades experience in Kenpo, who is not boasting about it. Refering to the above mentioned phrase he suggests that lack of experience in feeling certain aspects in Systema striking methods could be the problem- trying to see and judge everything through the prizm of knowledge and understanding gained from another art. IMO nothing personal in that statement.
As a response- Kenpo player throws in his baggage (years, belts, etc.), refers to Brad as "son" and suggests that Brad doesn't know what he's talking about... And provides the cell # for more personal contact... Looks little challenging. 
And on and on.... :mp5:  :mp5:  :mp5: 
Looks to me like some people want to use their art of choice (Kenpo, BJJ, xyz, etc.) as a measuring stick... While they may have years of experience and deep knowledge in that art, judging another method without spending some time not just watching few clips and reading some forums, but getting to feel it, experiment with it and so on- is little bit ignorant. Regardless of age, years in training and number of stripes on BB.  :btg:


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 16, 2005)

SonnyPuzikas said:
			
		

> Paul posts link to his article about some aspects of developing ability to deal with the strikes. While the subject is very wast and can't possibly be exhausted in one article, Pauls writing is a good primer.
> Then an individual with Kenpo background makes a sweeping statement, without understanding the essence of the issue discussed in Pauls article. Adds disclaimer- along the lines of "no disrespect" or something like it...
> Then another Kenpo player, who uses a phrase that is very similar to the common saying in Systema ("You have to know how to hold the strike, before you can strike others"- as to the us eof word "hold" instead of "take", "absorb", etc.- different discussion) in his post, cheers the post by the Kenpo comrade (which IMO was lightly challenging in it's nature and wrong in its premises).


Obviously, the the first kenpo guy was me%-} . I agree that my statement was "lightly challenging" and I actually intended it to be. What I didn't intend was for the statement to be taken as a dig at the entire art of systema. I was hoping more for an argument/ debate on the value of the type of training being done in the video. In hindsight, the way I worded my first statement ("_Good in theory but . . ._") was a little _more_ abrasive than it was originally intended to be. I hope nobody here takes me for an opinionated #%$*. I truly respect the ideas of all styles though I may not agree with all of them. I kinda started the storm that took over in this thread and I apologize (a little late in coming) for not thinking harder about my first post before I submitted it.


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

well let me say the other guy is me,yea i know people think that i'm sometimes rude
   but got to tell you that i was not being rude here,the only thing i wanted to know was about the *"hammer fist"* and not droping your bodyweight.
   now i see that some people say that is was not a Hammer fist,and thats ok too.
   as far as the other stuff goes, (me calling him *"son"* yes i did,
 but it was in no way an attack on this guy, and to voice what kenpo_man said and Mr Parker, "there is good in all martial arts"
   oh yes i do have an open mine to all martial arts,


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