# From Okinawa to Korea



## Michele123

Hello,
I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether. 

Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do. 

First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense. We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus.   Do you all find this true?  Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical?  I like the idea of studying a martial art that I can continue if I move again. Tae Kwan Do seems to be in every town. But I don’t want my daughter to have false confidence and not have the self-defense skills it is important for a woman to have. 

Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms).  In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred.  Why?  Am I misunderstanding something?  The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next. 

Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)?  I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?

I’ve been enjoying classes very much. I’d forgotten how glorious it is to push yourself and train hard and become so in tune with your body. As kicking was always my favorite part of Shutokan, I’m enjoying the plethora of kicks in Tae Kwan Do. Apparently I understand too much theory already as I’m asking questions that are uncommon for a white belt to ask. 

That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools?  At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here. 

Anyhow, because of my background I’m picking things up quickly. I tested for white belt in December and my instructor says he wants me to double test at the end of this month since I already know most of the material and whatnot.  I’m actually pretty excited about that. I just wish I had the time to practice that I did back when I was a teen. Being a mom to three little kids, plus two work from home jobs (university professor and database developer) in addition to all the typical household chores, leaves me little time to practice.  Most of my practice time is visualizing while rocking the baby to sleep or cooking dinner or drifting off to sleep at night. 

Anyhow, Thank you for reading. I’m excited for this new martial arts journey! I just hope my old way of doing things doesn’t trip me up too much!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> Hello,
> First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense.



It's really not. Not any more (or less) than any other system. That's because the focus is determined more by the school than the style.



> We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus.   Do you all find this true?  Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical?



See above. If you're in a school that doesn't know the difference between tricking and kicking, or that is focused entirely on Olympic style competition, then what you've said may be true. But TKD is far, far too large and disparate to make such sweeping statements.
As far as practicality goes, I will say this. I am involved in physical confrontations about once a week. No, I'm not just a jerk (or at least I don't think I am...); I work in an ER, and this is something that happens on a far too regular basis. While I don't kick patients, I do use my MA training constantly, in real situations. And I've got no complaints about TKD being impractical.



> Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms).  In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred.  Why?  Am I misunderstanding something?  The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next.



If you think your head is going to stay the same height during a fight, I question how much actual self-defense orientation that school really had...
The purpose of staying the same height vs moving up and down has to do with the philosophy of power generation being used and/or purely a stylistic choice.



> Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)?  I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?



There is no one "first" taekwondo form. There are at least 6 different form sets, all of which have a first form.
Tang Soo Do and Soo Bak Do schools do teach the pinan forms, or close variants thereof. But they're not TKD, either, even if most people would be hard pressed to explain WHY they're not TKD.

The roots of TKD are directly traceable to Shotokan, however. The founders were primarily trained in that art, with a smattering of Judo and Northern Chinese influences. So in the early days (bear in mind that TKD didn't exist until the mid-1950's) many schools were teaching the Pinan forms (or minor variants) simply because the various TKD form sets hadn't been developed yet.



> That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools?  At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here.



Rank order is the same. 10th geup through 1st geup for colored belts, 1st Dan through 9th (or 10th, in a few systems) Dan for black belts.
The COLOR assigned to a given geup rank varies widely. There's at least one system that uses a camouflage belt...


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## Headhunter

Simply every school is different. Some focus more on self defence others more tournaments


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## Headhunter

Dirty Dog said:


> It's really not. Not any more (or less) than any other system. That's because the focus is determined more by the school than the style.
> 
> 
> 
> See above. If you're in a school that doesn't know the difference between tricking and kicking, or that is focused entirely on Olympic style competition, then what you've said may be true. But TKD is far, far too large and disparate to make such sweeping statements.
> As far as practicality goes, I will say this. I am involved in physical confrontations about once a week. No, I'm not just a jerk (or at least I don't think I am...); I work in an ER, and this is something that happens on a far too regular basis. While I don't kick patients, I do use my MA training constantly, in real situations. And I've got no complaints about TKD being impractical.
> 
> 
> 
> If you think your head is going to stay the same height during a fight, I question how much actual self-defense orientation that school really had...
> The purpose of staying the same height vs moving up and down has to do with the philosophy of power generation being used and/or purely a stylistic choice.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no one "first" taekwondo form. There are at least 6 different form sets, all of which have a first form.
> Tang Soo Do and Soo Bak Do schools do teach the pinan forms, or close variants thereof. But they're not TKD, either, even if most people would be hard pressed to explain WHY they're not TKD.
> 
> The roots of TKD are directly traceable to Shotokan, however. The founders were primarily trained in that art, with a smattering of Judo and Northern Chinese influences. So in the early days (bear in mind that TKD didn't exist until the mid-1950's) many schools were teaching the Pinan forms (or minor variants) simply because the various TKD form sets hadn't been developed yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Rank order is the same. 10th geup through 1st geup for colored belts, 1st Dan through 9th (or 10th, in a few systems) Dan for black belts.
> The COLOR assigned to a given geup rank varies widely. There's at least one system that uses a camouflage belt...


One reason I've been told about keeping stances same height is that when your fighting if you bob up and down its easier to see an attack coming than if your the same height and move in. Personally I don't agree that much but that's another reason given


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## DaveB

Headhunter said:


> One reason I've been told about keeping stances same height is that when your fighting if you bob up and down its easier to see an attack coming than if your the same height and move in. Personally I don't agree that much but that's another reason given


There is something to be said for minimising movement around your technique, but not enough to dismiss those who dont make a big deal of it.

Mostly the keeping level is a power thing though. Also debatable as to what difference it makes.


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## Dirty Dog

Headhunter said:


> One reason I've been told about keeping stances same height is that when your fighting if you bob up and down its easier to see an attack coming than if your the same height and move in. Personally I don't agree that much but that's another reason given



And yet, pretty much every professional fighter, be it boxing, grappling or whatever, bobs and weaves. Which tends to make me think that, while power generation theory may play a role in the choice of bob vs steady state of the head during forms, stylistic reasons are probably a bigger factor.
Just FYI, the Moo Duk Kwan does 'level head' forms.


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## skribs

Michele123 said:


> Hello,
> 
> First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense. We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus.   Do you all find this true?  Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical?  I like the idea of studying a martial art that I can continue if I move again. Tae Kwan Do seems to be in every town. But I don’t want my daughter to have false confidence and not have the self-defense skills it is important for a woman to have.



I am going to agree and disagree with the above posters.  Because Taekwondo is an Olympic sport, most schools cater to the sport aspect of the art compared to the self defense or practical aspects of it.  Now, Taekwondo doesn't teach *not* to hit.  You will find that you'll do some non-contact sparring in Taekwondo, but that's usually because half the white and yellow belts will kick each other in the knee on accident if they do contact sparring from the start.  My recommendation is to go to the schools, talk to the masters, and try them out to see if its a good fit for what you want.



> Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms).  In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred.  Why?  Am I misunderstanding something?  The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next.



My Taekwondo school is more traditional and we keep deeper stances for the majority of our forms.  We don't really focus on head height, though.  My Master has stated he prefers deeper stances, because if you do need to change levels you can go up or down, but in the shallower walking stances you can only go down.  I don't think it's so much about bobbing up and down (although I believe the "sine wave" was part of the curriculum a long time ago), but about being able to change levels and work from a standing position or a deeper stance.

The self defense that we teach sometimes has short steps and sometimes has long steps, it depends on what we're trying to do.



> Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)?  I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?



My first school had "Exercise 1" as the first thing you were tested on, to get your first yellow stripe, and "Kibon Il Jang" as the first basic form.  The school I'm at now starts with "Kibon Il Jang."  Most schools in Kukkiwon Taekwondo use either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms, so your first form will be Teageuk Il Jang or Palgwe Il Jang.  "Il Jang" basically means "chapter #1". 

Note that this is just in Kukkiwon, you'll either have Taegeuk or Palgwe forms and might have some extra forms or drills thrown in.  In other organizations (ITF, ATA, etc) you may have others.  Kukkiwon is also supposedly working on new forms, but I'm not sure if those are going to be for colored belts or black belts.



> That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools?  At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here.



Within Kukkiwon, my understanding is there is no standardization pre-black-belt.  The school I went to as a kid went white-yellow-orange-purple-green-blue-red-brown-black.  When I started, each belt had 3 stripes before getting the next belt, so my old white belt has 3 yellow stripes in electrical tape around it.  Halfway through my time there, they switched to a system using the belts with a stripe down the middle, so you'd go solid belt - white stripe - black stripe - next color.  I don't know what they did for white belts, but that significantly reduced the amount of tests needed.

The school I'm in now goes white-yellow-purple-orange-green-blue-red-black.  The first four belts are all solid color, we get 1 stripe on green, and 2 stripes each on blue and red.  You'll notice there's no brown belt, and that purple and orange got flipped around.

However, within Kukkiwon, if you get your black belt, then all the other schools in the organization have to recognize you as a black belt.  You could be a red belt and go to a new school and they start you over because you're not a red belt in their system, but once you have your Dan rank, you are a black belt no matter where you go.


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## Rough Rider

The first thing to learn is it's Tae Kw*o*n Do, not Tae Kw*a*n Do.  Please understand, I'm not trying to be a nit-picky jerk.  Both kwon and kwan are Korean words with different meanings.  

Kwon 권 means to strike or smash with the hand
Kwan 관 means school or organization

Welcome!  I hope you enjoy Taekwondo 태 권 도 as much as I do.


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## skribs

Rough Rider said:


> The first thing to learn is it's Tae Kw*o*n Do, not Tae Kw*a*n Do.  Please understand, I'm not trying to be a nit-picky jerk.  Both kwon and kwan are Korean words with different meanings.
> 
> Kwon 권 means to strike or smash with the hand
> Kwan 관 means school or organization
> 
> Welcome!  I hope you enjoy Taekwondo 태 권 도 as much as I do.



That makes a lot more sense to me now.


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## Michele123

Dirty Dog said:


> It's really not. Not any more (or less) than any other system. That's because the focus is determined more by the school than the style.


Ah thank you. That makes sense. 




Dirty Dog said:


> There is no one "first" taekwondo form. There are at least 6 different form sets, all of which have a first form.
> Tang Soo Do and Soo Bak Do schools do teach the pinan forms, or close variants thereof. But they're not TKD, either, even if most people would be hard pressed to explain WHY they're not TKD.
> 
> The roots of TKD are directly traceable to Shotokan, however. The founders were primarily trained in that art, with a smattering of Judo and Northern Chinese influences. So in the early days (bear in mind that TKD didn't exist until the mid-1950's) many schools were teaching the Pinan forms (or minor variants) simply because the various TKD form sets hadn't been developed yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Rank order is the same. 10th geup through 1st geup for colored belts, 1st Dan through 9th (or 10th, in a few systems) Dan for black belts.
> The COLOR assigned to a given geup rank varies widely. There's at least one system that uses a camouflage belt...


Fascinating!  Thank you for such a thorough response. I’ll need to read more about Tae Kwan Do. I didn’t realize it borrowed from Shotokan. That explains why there are a lot of similarities in some areas. 

I looked up the form name in our handbook. The one that seems so similar to Pinan Shodan is called “Ki Bohn Poomse.”  The form I’m learning now (only have the first half so far) is “Taegeuk Il Jang.”  This is the one that has different stance heights. You had some good points about that just being style. Thank you. I haven’t heard the term “geup” yet. Is that basically the Korean version of “kyu?”  




Headhunter said:


> Simply every school is different. Some focus more on self defence others more tournaments


Ok cool. The one I joined has tournaments but that doesn’t seem to be the focus (whereas it *was* the focus at the first school I tried this summer who claim to be karate but in the fine print it says “westernized Tae Kwan Do.”)



Headhunter said:


> One reason I've been told about keeping stances same height is that when your fighting if you bob up and down its easier to see an attack coming than if your the same height and move in. Personally I don't agree that much but that's another reason given


Yes. This is what I was taught in Shutokan. In sparring we worked hard to keep our head the same height so as to catch our opponent off-guard. Obviously jump kicks were different. 



DaveB said:


> There is something to be said for minimising movement around your technique, but not enough to dismiss those who dont make a big deal of it.
> 
> Mostly the keeping level is a power thing though. Also debatable as to what difference it makes.


I’m curious. How is it a power thing?




Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, pretty much every professional fighter, be it boxing, grappling or whatever, bobs and weaves. Which tends to make me think that, while power generation theory may play a role in the choice of bob vs steady state of the head during forms, stylistic reasons are probably a bigger factor.
> Just FYI, the Moo Duk Kwan does 'level head' forms.



Interesting. Thank you. 



skribs said:


> I am going to agree and disagree with the above posters.  Because Taekwondo is an Olympic sport, most schools cater to the sport aspect of the art compared to the self defense or practical aspects of it.  Now, Taekwondo doesn't teach *not* to hit.  You will find that you'll do some non-contact sparring in Taekwondo, but that's usually because half the white and yellow belts will kick each other in the knee on accident if they do contact sparring from the start.  My recommendation is to go to the schools, talk to the masters, and try them out to see if its a good fit for what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> My Taekwondo school is more traditional and we keep deeper stances for the majority of our forms.  We don't really focus on head height, though.  My Master has stated he prefers deeper stances, because if you do need to change levels you can go up or down, but in the shallower walking stances you can only go down.  I don't think it's so much about bobbing up and down (although I believe the "sine wave" was part of the curriculum a long time ago), but about being able to change levels and work from a standing position or a deeper stance.
> 
> The self defense that we teach sometimes has short steps and sometimes has long steps, it depends on what we're trying to do.
> 
> 
> 
> My first school had "Exercise 1" as the first thing you were tested on, to get your first yellow stripe, and "Kibon Il Jang" as the first basic form.  The school I'm at now starts with "Kibon Il Jang."  Most schools in Kukkiwon Taekwondo use either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms, so your first form will be Teageuk Il Jang or Palgwe Il Jang.  "Il Jang" basically means "chapter #1".
> 
> Note that this is just in Kukkiwon, you'll either have Taegeuk or Palgwe forms and might have some extra forms or drills thrown in.  In other organizations (ITF, ATA, etc) you may have others.  Kukkiwon is also supposedly working on new forms, but I'm not sure if those are going to be for colored belts or black belts.
> 
> 
> 
> Within Kukkiwon, my understanding is there is no standardization pre-black-belt.  The school I went to as a kid went white-yellow-orange-purple-green-blue-red-brown-black.  When I started, each belt had 3 stripes before getting the next belt, so my old white belt has 3 yellow stripes in electrical tape around it.  Halfway through my time there, they switched to a system using the belts with a stripe down the middle, so you'd go solid belt - white stripe - black stripe - next color.  I don't know what they did for white belts, but that significantly reduced the amount of tests needed.
> 
> The school I'm in now goes white-yellow-purple-orange-green-blue-red-black.  The first four belts are all solid color, we get 1 stripe on green, and 2 stripes each on blue and red.  You'll notice there's no brown belt, and that purple and orange got flipped around.
> 
> However, within Kukkiwon, if you get your black belt, then all the other schools in the organization have to recognize you as a black belt.  You could be a red belt and go to a new school and they start you over because you're not a red belt in their system, but once you have your Dan rank, you are a black belt no matter where you go.



Ooh, this was super helpful. Thank you!  

The school I’m at now is the second one I tried and definitely seems more practical than the first one I tried but I am only able to go once a week and only started at the end of October so I figured asking here would be helpful. 

By saying Tae Kwan Do teaches not to hit certain targets, it was in regards to sparring. There were no off-limit targets in Shutokan (though we didn’t do full power contact). From people in my old dojo, I had head that Tae Kwan Do does not allow targets that would be very effective in a self defense situation because they want people in a competition to be safe. 

All your info regarding Kukkiwon is very helpful. I looked up my school’s website and it says they are a part of that. The first form I had to learn to earn my white belt was Ki Bohn Poomse. But I am now in the process of learning Taeguek Il Jang. 

———-

I’m really loving training in Tae Kwan Do. Being a mother to three little kids is great but also exhausting. Training in Tae Kwan Do (even if it’s only once a week) has been amazing for my energy and mood. I’m really excited to continue. Christmas break was rough!  I look forward to Summer when I won’t be teaching university classes and can go to Tae Kwan Do more often!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## skribs

Michele123 said:


> By saying Tae Kwan Do teaches not to hit certain targets, it was in regards to sparring. There were no off-limit targets in Shutokan (though we didn’t do full power contact). From people in my old dojo, I had head that Tae Kwan Do does not allow targets that would be very effective in a self defense situation because they want people in a competition to be safe.



If it was about being safe they wouldn't include the unprotected face as an acceptable target for head shots.  We had a LOT of cuts on the faces of practitioners at the last tournament our school went to.

It's more about the fact that anyone can punch you in the face, but it takes more technique to kick to the face.


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## DaveB

Michele123 said:


> I’m curious. How is it a power thing?



When you move all your energy goes forward instead of a portion of it going up.


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## granfire

when I started Taekwondo, I started to study the theory a little more, only to find out there are tons of variations.
if you train with one school, you know exactly one school, even if they are in the same franchise.
there are Poomse, Hyongs,  and what not in terms of forms, the sine wave, oh yes, subject to many discussions, on the yeah or nay. 
But in the end, deep stances train the strength in your legs. You can always stand more upright, but crouching more is really painful when untrained or tired. But that was a lesson learned in fencing, a long time prior to TKD.

As stated, while Korea has a long illustrious history, TKD isn't but 60 some years old. and then it took the megalomaniac of a general to 'unify' it in some shape. And a lot of good that did! LOL

there are the olympic style schools, kick to the head, or go home, and the other schools.
I trained at a school with medium contact in sparring. 
most students were kids, and us adults had day jobs and could not afford to get beat up playing.

But in terms of self defense, the biggest components are
awareness of your surroundings, don't go stupid places.
physical fitness, because, you know, couch potatoes don't last long
and self awareness. Once you train, you carry yourself different, making you an uninteresting target for the casual mugger. 
and of course, putting some tool at your disposal, just in case. and getting you used to being yelled at, and hit and kicked.
I think  we do neglect the yelling part though. because that is - especially for females, a huge sticking point. we tend to freeze up! I guess that's why you get yelled at in boot camp all the time!

I believe around a hundred corners, my school traced itself to the ITF. 
the Hyongs where named after relevant korean events and people.
Chong Chi was the whitebelt form, and while I was always athletic, I thought I was learning how to walk when I started this, not to mention my Spongebob moment 'Three hours Later' WHERE IS THE FRIGGIN END OF THIS FORM!!!!'
ah, good times! 

But aside from asking your Sabum, there is a lot of material out. Not all applicable for you, but hey, Tuttles on TKD was one book I found at the library, next to Tuttles on Karate.

But yeah, due to the long occupation of Korea by the Japanese, Karate is the cradle of TKD.....


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## Dirty Dog

skribs said:


> I am going to agree and disagree with the above posters.  Because Taekwondo is an Olympic sport, most schools cater to the sport aspect of the art compared to the self defense or practical aspects of it.



Really? And how many schools have you spent enough time in to make this determination?



> My first school had "Exercise 1" as the first thing you were tested on, to get your first yellow stripe, and "Kibon Il Jang" as the first basic form.  The school I'm at now starts with "Kibon Il Jang."  Most schools in Kukkiwon Taekwondo use either the Palgwe forms or the Taegeuk forms, so your first form will be Teageuk Il Jang or Palgwe Il Jang.  "Il Jang" basically means "chapter #1".
> 
> Note that this is just in Kukkiwon, you'll either have Taegeuk or Palgwe forms and might have some extra forms or drills thrown in.  In other organizations (ITF, ATA, etc) you may have others.  Kukkiwon is also supposedly working on new forms, but I'm not sure if those are going to be for colored belts or black belts.



The Taegeuk forms are the official forms for KKW schools, and the ONLY forms endorsed by the KKW. Basically, if you're not learning the Taegeuk forms, you're not following the KKW curriculum.


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## skribs

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? And how many schools have you spent enough time in to make this determination?



I'm going mainly on second-hand knowledge here; a combination of the reputation of the art and what people at other Taekwondo schools in the area say about the art.



> The Taegeuk forms are the official forms for KKW schools, and the ONLY forms endorsed by the KKW. Basically, if you're not learning the Taegeuk forms, you're not following the KKW curriculum.



I've heard this.  I also know I have a 2nd Dan certificate from KKW, along with certificates from 11th keub to 1st keub, and the Dan ranks up to where I am.

I also know my school isn't the only KKW school that uses the Palgwes instead of the Taegeuks.  Are the Palgwes used in any other organization?


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## Dirty Dog

skribs said:


> I'm going mainly on second-hand knowledge here; a combination of the reputation of the art and what people at other Taekwondo schools in the area say about the art.



So, basically, it's a completely unfounded and unsupported assertion. Got it.
I just find it amusing (as well as a sad example of the state of our educational system) that some people will take a sample size of 0.001% and honestly think they can extrapolate from that to make statements about the entirety of taekwondo.



> I've heard this.  I also know I have a 2nd Dan certificate from KKW, along with certificates from 11th keub to 1st keub, and the Dan ranks up to where I am.



Certainly. The KKW is too large to police schools to see if they're following the curriculum. So they have to rely on the integrity of the instructors when they sign off on a form stating that you know the KKW curriculum.



> I also know my school isn't the only KKW school that uses the Palgwes instead of the Taegeuks.  Are the Palgwes used in any other organization?



They're used in our branch of the Moo Duk Kwan.


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## auntlisa1103

As others have said, I think many of the differences you are noticing have more to do with the school and instructors than with the art.

At the school where I train you don’t test for white, and there are not multiple stages of white, yellow or orange. It goes white, yellow, orange, two gups of green, two gups of blue, two gups of red, two gups of brown, cho dan (temp black), then 1st dan black.

Our white belts learn 2 saju kong bang forms, then from yellow forward we learn tae geuk forms.

In sparring, we are not allowed head shots until black belt because some people have more control than others. Years ago they actually changed the script of one of our one-step spars from a snap kick to a knee strike because a brown belt got over zealous and bashed his partner’s teeth in. They also do only one-steps until black belt, when they start three-steps. This is because years ago a brown belt got shot in the shoulder because he did nothing more than block the first two punches and tried to wait for the third attack before he countered. The third attack was the gun. That day, my Master says, they moved to one-steps. 

If a student chooses to compete they will help us train for that, but it’s not a focus. It’s about self defense and how everything would apply if we ever had to use it in a real life situation.

So as I said, I really think it’s more about the people running the school than anything else.


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## CB Jones

Dirty Dog said:


> So, basically, it's a completely unfounded and unsupported assertion. Got it.
> I just find it amusing (as well as a sad example of the state of our educational system) that some people will take a sample size of 0.001% and honestly think they can extrapolate from that to make statements about the entirety of taekwondo.



Yeah, the lineage my son is part of was founded in 1948 but did not adopt the “Olympic style” or adhere to any rules or regulations by KKW or any other organization.


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## Michele123

Thank you all for your comments. This has been very enlightening. I really do like the school I’ve joined and am very excited to climb the ranks again. The adult class is small. For regulars there are 8 black belts, 2 second dans, a red belt (getting reading to test for Black), a purple belt (2 belts away from black I think), and myself (a white belt). Th youth class has many more students and belt ranges. The little kids class (that my daughter is in) only has 3 or 4 students. I love how close-knit the TKD families seem to get as well as how welcoming they are to newcomers. By my second class I felt accepted and part of the group. 

Today is Tuesday and I am crazy excited for class. Hopefully I’ve got the first half of Taeguek Il Jang down well enough that I can learn the second half tonight. 

So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school?  Or are there even variations within the forms?

Also, we have things to learn call “basic one-steps” (I’ve learned 1-7) and “basic kicking” (I learned 1-5 for my white belt and I’ve been shown and am working on 6-12 now). Is this a school-specific thing or a system wide thing?  


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## skribs

Michele123 said:


> Thank you all for your comments. This has been very enlightening. I really do like the school I’ve joined and am very excited to climb the ranks again. The adult class is small. For regulars there are 8 black belts, 2 second dans, a red belt (getting reading to test for Black), a purple belt (2 belts away from black I think), and myself (a white belt). Th youth class has many more students and belt ranges. The little kids class (that my daughter is in) only has 3 or 4 students. I love how close-knit the TKD families seem to get as well as how welcoming they are to newcomers. By my second class I felt accepted and part of the group.
> 
> Today is Tuesday and I am crazy excited for class. Hopefully I’ve got the first half of Taeguek Il Jang down well enough that I can learn the second half tonight.
> 
> So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school?  Or are there even variations within the forms?
> 
> Also, we have things to learn call “basic one-steps” (I’ve learned 1-7) and “basic kicking” (I learned 1-5 for my white belt and I’ve been shown and am working on 6-12 now). Is this a school-specific thing or a system wide thing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The Taegeuk forms should be the same, although KKW likes to make minor changes to them each year to force Masters to attend their meetings.

Other forms will have vast amounts of variation.


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## Rough Rider

Michele123 said:


> Also, we have things to learn call “basic one-steps” (I’ve learned 1-7) and “basic kicking” (I learned 1-5 for my white belt and I’ve been shown and am working on 6-12 now). Is this a school-specific thing or a system wide thing?



All of those things will vary from school to school.  Whenever we get transfer students at my school, they spend a lot of time learning our one-steps, self-defense techniques, etc.



Michele123 said:


> So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school? Or are there even variations within the forms?



The forms should be the same.  My school has made minor changes to several forms, but I believe that we are the exception, not the rule.  This is one aspect of my school that I'm not happy with.


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## granfire

Rough Rider said:


> The forms should be the same.  My school has made minor changes to several forms, but I believe that we are the exception, not the rule.  This is one aspect of my school that I'm not happy with.



Nah.
they can vary wildly from organization to organization, and even within the same the instructor's emphasis can make it look like a completely different animal!


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## Tony Dismukes

auntlisa1103 said:


> At the school where I train ... They also do only one-steps until black belt, when they start three-steps.



Only one-step sparring until black belt and then three-steps? When do students start actual free sparring at your school?


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## skribs

Tony Dismukes said:


> Only one-step sparring until black belt and then three-steps? When do students start actual free sparring at your school?



That sounds like self-defense drills, not rules-based sparring.


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## auntlisa1103

Sorry, in my head I was only talking about choreographed sparring. We start free sparring as yellow belts. White belts free spar a little in class, but only by using a black belt as a punching bag, and they’re not tested on it.

It’s also worth noting I can’t find video of our one steps anywhere online, which reinforces for me how school-specific they are. We don’t start hosen sools (I probably spelled that WAY wrong) until yellow either.


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## andyjeffries

granfire said:


> then it took the megalomaniac of a general to 'unify' it in some shape. And a lot of good that did! LOL



I'm happy giving General Choi credit for the things he did, but I would say that he was probably the least important in the unification effort and the most divisive.


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## TrueJim

andyjeffries said:


> I'm happy giving General Choi credit for the things he did, but I would say that he was probably the least important in the unification effort and the most divisive.



My initial reaction to this was to ponder: to what extent was unification a _response_ to General Choi? Like, in an alternate timeline, if Choi had never existed, would unification still have occurred? Did the formation of the ITF trigger the other kwan to finally get more serious about consolidation?

After much noodling, looking at timelines, and making diagrams with arrows and stuff, I've convinced myself that that's not the case. Consolidation and unification was seriously underway regardless of Choi. I do think that perhaps without Choi, we'd still be calling the art Soo Bak Do, and it would not have spread around the world so quickly, but unification still would have occurred.

What I'm noodling now is: would the alternate timeline's Soo Bak Do have made it into the Olympics? It seems to me that Choi and his proteges did a lot to promote taekwondo globally -- more-so than anybody -- and global popularity was required to push the sport beyond just an Olympic exhibition sport in Seoul. 

So here's my version of an alternate timeline: 

Without Choi, taekwondo is called Soo Bak Do. It's not nearly as popular globally as taekwondo is in our timeline. 
There is still a Kukkiwon in the alternate timeline, and its style is largely the same as what we have in our timeline. With Won Kuk Lee initially running the KTA, Hwang Kee never split to do his own thing, so we see a little bit more Hwang Kee influence in the Kukki style. 
There is still a WTF, but Soo Bak Do never made it into the Olympics, because it was less popular globally. Because Soo Bak Do never made it into the Olympics, there was never a drive toward electronic scoring, so Soo Bak Do sparring style in the alternate timeline is more like old-school taekwondo. "Foot fencing" never materializes. 
K-Pop is still a thing in the alternate timeline, so acrobatic tricking is still part of the taekwondo-dance movement.
Soo Bak Do is still largely used for daycare programs inside Korea, but less so outside Korea, where karate already had a head-start in this area.


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## WaterGal

Michele123 said:


> Fascinating!  Thank you for such a thorough response. I’ll need to read more about Tae Kwan Do. I didn’t realize it borrowed from Shotokan.



That's not surprising. It's not something that's widely advertised. Japan occupied Korea for decades, and did a lot to suppress their culture. After WWII and the end of the occupation, the Korean people had to basically reconstruct some aspects of their culture, or just create new stuff entirely. Taekwondo was part of that effort. 

There's been an effort by certain people to create this history of Taekwondo where it's based on ancient Korean arts that were secretly passed down by unnamed guys training in secret mountain hideouts. This is almost certainly mostly BS. In reality, there were a bunch of karate schools in Korea during the occupation, and the arts they practiced formed the main foundation of TKD.




> I haven’t heard the term “geup” yet. Is that basically the Korean version of “kyu?”



Yes.



> By saying Tae Kwan Do teaches not to hit certain targets, it was in regards to sparring. There were no off-limit targets in Shutokan (though we didn’t do full power contact). From people in my old dojo, I had head that Tae Kwan Do does not allow targets that would be very effective in a self defense situation because they want people in a competition to be safe.



In my experience, TKD schools do tend to _emphasize _techniques that are legal to do in a sparring match. But that doesn't mean they won't teach other things as well (especially when it comes to adult students). That's going to depend on the school.


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## skribs

WaterGal said:


> There's been an effort by certain people to create this history of Taekwondo where it's based on ancient Korean arts that were secretly passed down by unnamed guys training in secret mountain hideouts. This is almost certainly mostly BS. In reality, there were a bunch of karate schools in Korea during the occupation, and the arts they practiced formed the main foundation of TKD.



My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.



> In my experience, TKD schools do tend to _emphasize _techniques that are legal to do in a sparring match. But that doesn't mean they won't teach other things as well (especially when it comes to adult students). That's going to depend on the school.



This is a better way of saying what I was trying to say earlier.


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## TrueJim

skribs said:


> My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.



My personal opinion is that the ancient influence was probably more "inspiration" than actual technique. Like if somebody were to remove all ceramic items and even pottery-making itself from society for 35 years -- and then 35 years later we're allowed to start making pottery again -- we probably wouldn't remember much about the actual techniques of pottery-making, but we might find inspiration in what we remember pots looking like. I think that's about as much as can be said for ancient influences in taekwondo. It does make one wonder though -- what prompted the Koreans to eventually make taekwondo be more "high spinny kicky" than karate -- maybe childhood memories of what martial arts used to look like long ago?


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## Dirty Dog

skribs said:


> My understanding is that there was some influence from ancient arts in addition to karate.



There is absolutely zero evidence to support this commonly held belief.


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## daviddz

Michele123 said:


> So, in regards to TKD KKW schools, is Taeguek Il Jang the same in each school?  Or are there even variations within the forms?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The Kukkiwon publishes the standards for their poomsae so In theory, the Taeguek (and other) KKW poomsae should be all the same.  In practice, the forms as taught by different instructors may have some slight variation.  Also, over time the “official” versions see subtle changes.   

So will the Taeguek forms be the same at every school?  No, but they will be recognizable and the variations should be relatively minor.





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## TrueJim

daviddz said:


> The Kukkiwon publishes the standards for their poomsae so In theory, the Taeguek (and other) KKW poomsae should be all the same...



If you think about, all they _really_ publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> If you think about, all they _really_ publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!



Not so. There are some very good videos that have been officially endorsed by the KKW. I'm thinking specifically of the series done by GM LEE, Kyu Hyung (former president of the KKW) when he was head of the KKW demonstration team. These videos, of course, show the entirety of the movement.






I have a couple apps on my iPhone (and I suspect they're also available for Android devices...) that are endorsed by the KKW and do the same thing. One for the taegeuk forms, and one for the Yudanja forms.


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## daviddz

TrueJim said:


> If you think about, all they _really_ publish is what the static final position of each movement is supposed to look like. There's a lot of variability in how some schools get from one step to the next!



Actually, “The Textbook of Taekwondo Poomsae” published by th Kukkiwon includes a DVD with video demonstrations of the poomsae. 

Don’t get me wrong, I think the variations are a good thing.  I have had several very enlightening conversations with my current instructor about Koryo.  How I learned it 25 years ago is not how he teaches it now, or how it is documented in the above named book. 



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## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> My initial reaction to this was to ponder: to what extent was unification a _response_ to General Choi? Like, in an alternate timeline, if Choi had never existed, would unification still have occurred? Did the formation of the ITF trigger the other kwan to finally get more serious about consolidation?



I would definitely argue against that point. If for no other reason than that the kwans had already had the 1961 Unification Conference when the ITF was formed in 1966. The KTA had held a unified Dan Test in 1962, which is again way before the ITF was formed.



TrueJim said:


> After much noodling, looking at timelines, and making diagrams with arrows and stuff, I've convinced myself that that's not the case. Consolidation and unification was seriously underway regardless of Choi.



Exactly



TrueJim said:


> I do think that perhaps without Choi, we'd still be calling the art Soo Bak Do, and it would not have spread around the world so quickly, but unification still would have occurred.



I would say without Choi we'd be calling it something else (Soobakdo, Taesoodo, etc), but "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".



TrueJim said:


> What I'm noodling now is: would the alternate timeline's Soo Bak Do have made it into the Olympics? It seems to me that Choi and his proteges did a lot to promote taekwondo globally -- more-so than anybody -- and global popularity was required to push the sport beyond just an Olympic exhibition sport in Seoul.



In the absence of Choi though there was enough Taekwondo in Korea that those same people who left Korea to teach Taekwondo would likely still have done it. Maybe he moved up the schedule, but I still think that was the natural course.


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## Michele123

Dirty Dog said:


> I have a couple apps on my iPhone (and I suspect they're also available for Android devices...) that are endorsed by the KKW and do the same thing. One for the taegeuk forms, and one for the Yudanja forms.



Ooh!  What apps?  Those sound useful!



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## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Not so. There are some very good videos that have been officially endorsed by the KKW...



I agree that these videos are very excellent, but I would argue that these videos prove my point. Specifically, GM Lee often pauses the poomsae in these videos to highlight where each movement is supposed to _finish_. But you never see him pause the video to show how each movement is supposed to be _chambered_. Nor does he explain what _path_ the arm is supposed to follow from chamber to finish. This leaves schools free to make up whatever chambers and paths they want.

P.S. I should add that _deducing_ the entirety of the movement is difficult in these and other videos. If the performer doesn't pause to let you see the chamber, the chamber is often a blur.


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## TrueJim

Michele123 said:


> Ooh!  What apps?  Those sound useful!



In my opinion, I don't find the apps very useful. I have a number of these apps on my phone too. Usually the author of the app has merely bundled some very *old* videos that you can already find on YouTube, and simply put them into an app without any added value. In my opinion, you're better off just using the YouTube app on your phone. This is the series that the school I attend made:






The same videos are highlighted on the taekwondo wiki. Taegeuk Il Jang


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## TrueJim

andyjeffries said:


> I would definitely argue against that point. If for no other reason than that the kwans had already had the 1961 Unification Conference when the ITF was formed in 1966. The KTA had held a unified Dan Test in 1962, which is again way before the ITF was formed.
> 
> I would say without Choi we'd be calling it something else (Soobakdo, Taesoodo, etc), but "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".
> 
> In the absence of Choi though there was enough Taekwondo in Korea that those same people who left Korea to teach Taekwondo would likely still have done it. Maybe he moved up the schedule, but I still think that was the natural course.



In addition to your excellent points, I believe the palgwae poomsae were also already under development in 1965 (though they weren't completed until 1967) so the start of their development also predates the formation of the ITF. That's more evidence that it'd be difficult to argue that the development of a kukki style was a _response_ to 1966's formation of the ITF.

Here's my pondering on the _globalization_ of taekwondo: To what extent was the Original Masters tour driven by Choi himself? So many of those Original Masters wound-up relocating to other countries where they opened the first taekwondo schools in those countries -- would that have happened without Choi? Or would those Original Masters have largely remained in Korea?

On the other hand, my understanding is that the heavy-handedness of the KTA's consolidation efforts was in part what drove many masters to emigrate from Korea, so maybe you're right: the diaspora of taekwondo might have occurred regardless.


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> After much noodling, looking at timelines, and making diagrams with arrows and stuff, I've convinced myself that that's not the case. Consolidation and unification was seriously underway regardless of Choi. I do think that perhaps without Choi, we'd still be calling the art Soo Bak Do, and it would not have spread around the world so quickly, but unification still would have occurred.



Like General Choi and the ITF, the use of the name Soo Bahk Do didn't come around till long after the unification movement was well established.


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## oftheherd1

Dirty Dog said:


> There is absolutely zero evidence to support this commonly held belief.



I have often wondered about that.  Historical evidence of the Japanese trying to turn the Koreans into poor Japanese is recent enough to be incontestable.  During that time they destroyed many historical records the Koreans had, except for those few their own historians might have wanted.  They also apparently outlawed Koreans studying martial arts except for a very few, and then only Japanese martial arts.  They certainly outlawed Koreans speaking their own language. 

However, some records pertaining to Korea apparently survived not only in Korea, but elsewhere, mainly China.  China was a suzerain over Korea for a very long time.  Then there is the oriental belief that the oldest is best, and native is best, so one should be willing to talk about any skills showing oldest age of the skill in your own country, and your country having the most skilled of the skilled practitioners.

So how many martial arts were native, from Japan, or from China?  Or from elsewhere?

I have never understood those things since no people of the western world would stoop to such petty actions as that.


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## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Like General Choi and the ITF, the use of the name Soo Bahk Do didn't come around till long after the unification movement was well established.



My understanding is that in 1958 when the Korea Amateur Sports Association (KASA) required that the Korea Tang Soo Do Association and the Korea Kong Soo Do Association to merge (if they wished to become members of KASA), the resulting association chose to call itself the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association.  It seems to me that the unification movement was really more of a post-Korean-War thing, is that true? So that'd be about a 5 year difference I think?


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## TrueJim

oftheherd1 said:


> ...They also apparently outlawed Koreans studying martial arts...



Is "outlawed" the right word?  I was under the impression that it worked more like this: If you were a Korean who wanted to provide for your family, you had better go-along with the Japanese occupiers. Otherwise you would have a very difficult time finding work, keeping a home, sending your kids to school, etc.  So it's not that Korean folk traditions were _outlawed_ per se, but boy oh boy...the sooner you completely embraced Japanese culture, the sooner your family will have some rice in their bowls.


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> My understanding is that in 1958 when the Korea Amateur Sports Association (KASA) required that the Korea Tang Soo Do Association and the Korea Kong Soo Do Association to merge (if they wished to become members of KASA), the resulting association chose to call itself the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association.  It seems to me that the unification movement was really more of a post-Korean-War thing, is that true? So that'd be about a 5 year difference I think?



The unification started, was established, was interrupted by the Korean War and resumed after the cease fire.


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## Jaeimseu

TrueJim said:


> In my opinion, I don't find the apps very useful. I have a number of these apps on my phone too. Usually the author of the app has merely bundled some very *old* videos that you can already find on YouTube, and simply put them into an app without any added value. In my opinion, you're better off just using the YouTube app on your phone. This is the series that the school I attend made:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The same videos are highlighted on the taekwondo wiki. Taegeuk Il Jang



I’m pretty sure the US flag is displayed incorrectly here. I’m just pointing it out in case it matters to the school owner. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I’ve been enjoying classes very much. I’d forgotten how glorious it is to push yourself and train hard and become so in tune with your body. As kicking was always my favorite part of Shutokan, I’m enjoying the plethora of kicks in Tae Kwan Do. Apparently I understand too much theory already as I’m asking questions that are uncommon for a white belt to ask.
> ....
> Anyhow, Thank you for reading. I’m excited for this new martial arts journey! I just hope my old way of doing things doesn’t trip me up too much!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Have been reading the thread, that's really awesome to hear Michele! Always great to hear when people start and how much they're loving it. If you enjoy it, keep doing it! Only gets better! And yeah your experience in the other style will definitely help heaps, but for sure you may have to alter some techniques. I remember when I went from one karate style to another, there were a few habits that I had to change (going from semi-circling the feet when moving in stance to straight line movement, chambering fist higher etc), and it took a little while as they were so ingrained, but got there with enough focus, attention and practice. Always harder to break an old habit than form a new one I reckon .

But enjoy the journey, let us know how it goes , I also can't wait to get back into training again this year in a new venture, scary but exciting


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## TrueJim

Jaeimseu said:


> I’m pretty sure the US flag is displayed incorrectly here. I’m just pointing it out in case it matters to the school owner.



You are correct sir. Unfortunately the backs of the banners are white, so they can't be flipped around.


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## Earl Weiss

TrueJim said:


> You are correct sir. Unfortunately the backs of the banners are white, so they can't be flipped around.


Banner with stars to right is correct but when displayed with other flags at the head of the room USA Flag should be furthest to the right.


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## Michele123

Our association had a sparing seminar yesterday. It’s the first time I’ve sparred in about 18 years, and the first time I’ve ever sparred in Tae Kwan Do. There are a lot of rules for TKD sparring!  So many illegal targets!  In my Karate Dojo, sparring was for practicing self-defense. There were no illegal targets, though upper belts were expected to not use full power and just tag their opponent. The instructors did emphasize that this is the “sport” side of TKD.  I’m not sure I’m a fan of the sport side. I’m not sure I’m not a fan. It is strange sparing but not being able to use practical techniques and targets. 


On another note, I’m definitely not as energetic or in shape as I used to be. The sparing was a lot more exhausting than I remember it being. And I definitely am not as light on my feet as I used to be. That fact is actually kind of depressing. I’m hoping I can get back to close to where I was, but I am guessing I will never be back to 18 year old me. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Our association had a sparing seminar yesterday. It’s the first time I’ve sparred in about 18 years, and the first time I’ve ever sparred in Tae Kwan Do. There are a lot of rules for TKD sparring!  So many illegal targets!  In my Karate Dojo, sparring was for practicing self-defense. There were no illegal targets, though upper belts were expected to not use full power and just tag their opponent. The instructors did emphasize that this is the “sport” side of TKD.  I’m not sure I’m a fan of the sport side. I’m not sure I’m not a fan. It is strange sparing but not being able to use practical techniques and targets.
> 
> 
> On another note, I’m definitely not as energetic or in shape as I used to be. The sparing was a lot more exhausting than I remember it being. And I definitely am not as light on my feet as I used to be. That fact is actually kind of depressing. I’m hoping I can get back to close to where I was, but I am guessing I will never be back to 18 year old me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah yeah the sparring style may be a bit different, but you may end up really enjoying it. My old style was full contact bare knuckle sparring, but I entered an all-styles non-contact point sparring tournament a few times last year, and I thoroughly enjoy both styles! I like how each type emphasises a different aspect and allows you to work on developing that, so whatever style you enter into, the focus can be on what you can learn and develop in this, rather than what it's lacking. But see how you go anyway 

And yeah it'd be challenging getting back into sparring, I'm sure your energy will come back. And whilst it may not be like it used to, you can really start to focus on other aspects of sparring, like not so much explosive quickness, but being smoother, working on angles and footwork off to the sides, accuracy etc. Speaking to many older martial artists, most of them speak of how they're not as fast as they were etc, but that they really can deepen their practice and work on how to generate power etc without big grand speedy movements. I'm 30, and I definitely can feel more niggles and I don't recover as well as I did in my 20s. But it's given me a deeper understanding of how the body works, how I can recover better, and also to focus more on warming up, and learning the importance of mobility and relaxation etc, and I'm usually able to still train in a similar way, but smarter now hehe


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## oftheherd1

TrueJim said:


> Is "outlawed" the right word?  I was under the impression that it worked more like this: If you were a Korean who wanted to provide for your family, you had better go-along with the Japanese occupiers. Otherwise you would have a very difficult time finding work, keeping a home, sending your kids to school, etc.  So it's not that Korean folk traditions were _outlawed_ per se, but boy oh boy...the sooner you completely embraced Japanese culture, the sooner your family will have some rice in their bowls.



Well, I wasn't there, but I have had Koreans tell me it was prohibited.  Law? I can't promise that was so, but it was apparently enforced as if it were law if it actually wasn't.  As I mentioned, the prohibition against speaking Korean was apparently some form of law or regulation.  There were boxes at the police boxes to pay the fine on the spot, or so I was told.


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## TrueJim

oftheherd1 said:


> Well, I wasn't there, but I have had Koreans tell me it was prohibited.



Same here; the older Korean gentleman who spoke with me about it didn't know if it was "law" per se, but he said it was very clear that if you didn't go along with those kinds of prohibitions, your family was going to suffer. I have heard some revisionists exclaim, "But it wasn't illegal!" -- but I don't think the revisionists are giving enough weight the fact that a _prohibition_ can be even more chilling than a _law_ (since the victim can't even rely on the courts for recourse). 

And then of course after the occupation ended, what becomes of the people who did "go along" with the occupiers in order to protect their families...now they are branded as "sympathizers"? It must have been nightmarish.


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## Michele123

So, first a couple questions. What is the name for Dojo in Tae Kwan Do?  Everyone here just calls it the gym. Also, is there a Korean word for “Sensei?”  Our instructor is a far enough degree that he’s called “master” (at which degree does that start?)

Also, tournaments, worth it?  There is a tournament coming up and it’s the first since joining that I would be eligible for. But it’s expensive. And since I’m still a white belt I don’t have any experience breaking boards. (We didn’t do this in my old style).   I don’t have great stamina now that I’m old (36) so I wouldn’t do well sparring. (It was always my weakest area anyway). 

Anyhow, I’d love any advice you all have to give. 


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## ravenofthewood

Korean for gym is "dojang.". Master is "Sahbumnim." Being considered a master usually begins at fourth degree black belt.

Does this tournament offer poomsae competition? If you would like to do the tournament, I would recommend starting with just entering in poomsae. Wait on the sparring and board breaking until you feel more confident. Tournaments should be fun, not super stressful.  As a white belt, don't feel like doing a tournament is a must for you at this stage. It can be a great opportunity to bond with the other students in your school and test yourself against students from other schools, but it won't contribute much to your development as a martial artist at this point. However, if you are nervous about your next belt test, doing your poomsae in a higher pressure environment may help you feel more confident on test day.


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## andyjeffries

Michele123 said:


> So, first a couple questions. What is the name for Dojo in Tae Kwan Do? Everyone here just calls it the gym



In "Taekwondo" (you should probably not call it KWAN if you're doing the art) it's called a Dojang.



Michele123 said:


> Also, is there a Korean word for “Sensei?”



The Korean word for Sensei is Sabum (사범), however, if you're referring to someone else you should always say Sabumnim (사범님) and it goes after their name, not before.



Michele123 said:


> Our instructor is a far enough degree that he’s called “master” (at which degree does that start?)



In Kukkiwon Taekwondo generally it's seen as 4th degree/Dan. There are some very verbal people muddying the waters recently saying you're only a master if you've passed the Kukkiwon Master Instructor course, but I'd say 98% of people don't agree with that. In ITF Taekwon-do it's 7th degree/Dan.



Michele123 said:


> Also, tournaments, worth it?



I would say anything that a)makes you put in a period of preparation/polishing and b)puts you under stress to perform is good for your Taekwondo development. It's not the result that's important, but the process. Just my 2p worth of opinion.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Also, tournaments, worth it?  There is a tournament coming up and it’s the first since joining that I would be eligible for. But it’s expensive. And since I’m still a white belt I don’t have any experience breaking boards. (We didn’t do this in my old style).   I don’t have great stamina now that I’m old (36) so I wouldn’t do well sparring. (It was always my weakest area anyway).
> 
> Anyhow, I’d love any advice you all have to give.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I reckon tournaments are great. I'm a karate-ka, but will give my input if welcomed hehe. For years and years I was never interested in tournaments, just loved training in the dojo. I never considered martial arts to be along any lines of trying to 'win' anything, no did that motivate me, and it seemed to me to be opposite to its deeper aspects.

Then last year when I left the dojo, I had a strange curiosity to compete, and to just give it a go. Which is really bizarre! It was never to win, but it seemed like a really great challenge, ESPECIALLY the forms division, which I really loved the idea of... You go out there, in the centre of the mat, announce your form, and then just go to a whole different place, as though no one's watching you, and perform it as best as you can. Really appealed to something in me.. it was such a cool way to express everything you've learned, and give it your all. And also to work through letting go of any self-criticism and judgement you're hanging onto, or fear of judgement, as you're walking out there and literally being judged haha albeit in a different sense.

So I did forms and sparring, and loved the experience so much, and I'll probably compete this year too. I love the calm, focus, technique, thoughtfulness, intention, purpose, power and grace of forms; and I love the speed, explosiveness, strategy, accuracy, technique, patience and movement of sparring.

Also was an amazing experience to get together with other martial artists and support each other and also learn from each other too.

So as long as you don't do it out of peer-pressure (your peers or instructor trying to force you to do it) or self-pressure, and do it because you actually want to, that's pretty important. It's one aspect of martial arts, not a necessary one, but the avenue is there to explore, and it can definitely help you develop certain skills and learn a bunch like I did, and also the preparation leading up to it is fun too!

It's totally up to you, but the advice about giving the forms a go is great, if you're not as confident in sparring that's okay.

And by the way you are not old haha 

If you do compete please let us know how you go!




andyjeffries said:


> I would say anything that a)makes you put in a period of preparation/polishing and b)puts you under stress to perform is good for your Taekwondo development. It's not the result that's important, but the process. Just my 2p worth of opinion.



Very well said!


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## WaterGal

As a female adult color belt, you probably won't have many competitors at the tournament. In my experience, there's usually maybe 3-6 adult color belt women in the whole tournament, so they'll often lump all color belt adult women together in one or two brackets. FWIW, it seems like they're usually moms like you who started taking class with their kids and got into it.

Whether it's "worth it" is up to you - it depends on how much you like competing, and your financial situation.  WTF-style TKD tournaments do tend to be expensive, because the sparring style means they need to to rent a huge amount of mats and a bunch of expensive electronic scoring systems and pay lots of refs and judges.

TKD tournaments are usually divided up into multiple events that you can compete in. The universal ones are "traditional forms" (you pick a form to compete with, and usually they're open to any traditional TKD forms, even from other styles of TKD), and sparring. Other events that are sometimes offered include board breaking, creative forms (forms that you invent), family forms (multiple family members do a form together, like synchronized swimming or something), demo team competition, sport poomsae (where the judges tell _you _what form to do), tag-team sparring (where you have a group of sparring competitors who take turns swapping into the ring), and other events. Usually you pay a certain amount for the first event and then a little extra for each additional one you want to do.

If you want to compete in board breaking, and have some cash to spare, go for it!  Just make sure you practice your board breaks ahead of time and are confident with them (and that you check the rules to make sure that it's something that's allowed - I've seen some tournaments specify what kind of breaks they're looking for, based on belt rank).

Edit: If you're unsure, it wouldn't hurt to just go and watch this one to see what it's like.


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## JR 137

@WaterGal ’s response about if you’re unsure just go watch a tournament is great advice.

Some people love competing, some don’t.  Everyone’s got their likes and dislikes, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I love competing and I hate it.  I’m not a fan of point fighting.  Part of that might very well be that I’m not great at it.  I’d say I’m average to slightly better.  My main thing is I don’t care much for the rules, as it’s a game of tag when you break it down.

I really like competing in kata.  I like to think I’m pretty good at it.  When I’m up there, I don’t think of it as competing against anyone but myself.  All I try to do is do my Kata the best I’ve ever done it.  I can’t control how well or poorly everyone else does theirs, nor can I control what goes through a judge’s head.  I go out and try to nail it, and everything else takes care of itself.

The best part about competing is the preparation IMO.  It forces me to look at my weaknesses and address them head-on.  There’s no putting things off.  I work extra hard at my conditioning, my flexibility, my technique, my everything.  I haven’t competed in 2 years, and I honestly feel like I’ve regressed a bit because of it.  I’ve improved in some areas since then, but I’m not where I was in other ways.  I was supposed to compete a few months ago, but I had family obligations.  I started training for it, but didn’t follow through as much as I should have after I had to back out.

Competing has made me better.  To me, the competition itself wasn’t really the focus.  It was the preparation that really stood out every time.


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> @WaterGal ’s response about if you’re unsure just go watch a tournament is great advice.
> 
> Some people love competing, some don’t.  Everyone’s got their likes and dislikes, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
> 
> I love competing and I hate it.  I’m not a fan of point fighting.  Part of that might very well be that I’m not great at it.  I’d say I’m average to slightly better.  My main thing is I don’t care much for the rules, as it’s a game of tag when you break it down.
> 
> I really like competing in kata.  I like to think I’m pretty good at it.  When I’m up there, I don’t think of it as competing against anyone but myself.  All I try to do is do my Kata the best I’ve ever done it.  I can’t control how well or poorly everyone else does theirs, nor can I control what goes through a judge’s head.  I go out and try to nail it, and everything else takes care of itself.
> 
> The best part about competing is the preparation IMO.  It forces me to look at my weaknesses and address them head-on.  There’s no putting things off.  I work extra hard at my conditioning, my flexibility, my technique, my everything.  I haven’t competed in 2 years, and I honestly feel like I’ve regressed a bit because of it.  I’ve improved in some areas since then, but I’m not where I was in other ways.  I was supposed to compete a few months ago, but I had family obligations.  I started training for it, but didn’t follow through as much as I should have after I had to back out.
> 
> Competing has made me better.  To me, the competition itself wasn’t really the focus.  It was the preparation that really stood out every time.



Very well said! Exact right, some people love it and some don't, and that's totally fine. I was one who wanted nothing to do with it, then became someone who loved them, probably was because of a perspective shift and how I viewed tournaments. Just like JR it made me better as a martial artist, I looked at and worked on things I wouldn't have before, it pushed my development of speed, technique, footwork and movement in general, and it really was about the preparation. The event itself is awesome and there's a really great energy in the air too.

But also well worth just watching, I watched this particular tournament circuit for years and years and only last year finally wanted to compete and be a part of it.


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## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Very well said! Exact right, some people love it and some don't, and that's totally fine. I was one who wanted nothing to do with it, then became someone who loved them, probably was because of a perspective shift and how I viewed tournaments. Just like JR it made me better as a martial artist, I looked at and worked on things I wouldn't have before, it pushed my development of speed, technique, footwork and movement in general, and it really was about the preparation. The event itself is awesome and there's a really great energy in the air too.
> 
> But also well worth just watching, I watched this particular tournament circuit for years and years and only last year finally wanted to compete and be a part of it.


Ive competed in open and closed (is that what it’s called when it’s only our organization?) tournaments.  I’ve honestly had such a better time at the closed tournaments.  I’ve found the people at the open tournaments take themselves a bit too seriously at times. There’s too many people walking around thinking they’re something they’re definitely not.  At the closed tournaments, we take it seriously when we’re on the floor, but once we walk off we get along great.  Walking off the floor after my kata, people who I was competing against were bumping me and telling me how good I did.  And I was doing the same for them.  Well watch each others’ kata and quietly comment in a positive way while we’re waiting.  That doesn’t happen at the open tournaments I’ve been to. I’ve met a lot of very good people at Seido’s annual tournament.  People from dojos around the world.


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Ive competed in open and closed (is that what it’s called when it’s only our organization?) tournaments.  I’ve honestly had such a better time at the closed tournaments.  I’ve found the people at the open tournaments take themselves a bit too seriously at times. There’s too many people walking around thinking they’re something they’re definitely not.  At the closed tournaments, we take it seriously when we’re on the floor, but once we walk off we get along great.  Walking off the floor after my kata, people who I was competing against were bumping me and telling me how good I did.  And I was doing the same for them.  Well watch each others’ kata and quietly comment in a positive way while we’re waiting.  That doesn’t happen at the open tournaments I’ve been to. I’ve met a lot of very good people at Seido’s annual tournament.  People from dojos around the world.


Ah nice, yeah at the open tournaments there's been a mixed bag really, there are a few who are incredibly serious and won't even look at you, and others who were so very open and warm and complimentary. Hung around with a fellow who was from a Seido offshoot, really nice guy and we talked all things karate, and supported each other during the tournament. Met some really great people there too


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## Dirty Dog

ravenofthewood said:


> Master is "Sahbumnim."



No, it's not. The word "Sabum" means "teacher" not Master. Nim is an honorific signifying respect. So "sabumnim" mean, roughly, 'respected teacher.'
Using the honorific nim when referring to yourself is... tacky... to put it mildly.
I do not think there is a word that translates directly as "master" in this context. The other commonly mis-used term for a master instructor is "kwanjang" (or kwanjangnim) but that is closer to "headmaster" an old term for the head of a school, or 'chief instructor' perhaps.


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## Michele123

Thank you all for your input!  I think I’ll try it out. It isn’t for a while yet so I have time. It’s a small tournament. From what I understand, it’s just our association in this region. 5 schools I think. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> Thank you all for your input!  I think I’ll try it out. It isn’t for a while yet so I have time. It’s a small tournament. From what I understand, it’s just our association in this region. 5 schools I think.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That sounds like a great way to ease into it and see if it’s something you like.  There should be enough people to make it interesting, yet not so many that it’s overwhelming.

Put in as much training as you can.  It’ll be worth it regardless of how the tournament goes.


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## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> I do not think there is a word that translates directly as "master" in this context...



I've always assumed that the word _master_ is being used in the sense of "master craftsman" -- somebody who is supremely skilled in their craft  -- as opposed to the word being used in the master/controller sense. Like how we call a great musician _maestro_. So I'm going to go with either 장인 _jang-in_ (craftsman) or 거장 _geo-jang_ (virtuoso).


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## WaterGal

My guess that the English use of "master"/"grandmaster" to refer to high-ranking martial artists comes from chess, where those titles have been used for a long time to refer to highly skilled players. But that's just a guess. 

The title "master" might also come from the more archaic use of the word to mean "teacher" (which I think is more common in the UK), though in that case, the top master is "headmaster", not "grandmaster".


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> I've always assumed that the word _master_ is being used in the sense of "master craftsman" -- somebody who is supremely skilled in their craft  -- as opposed to the word being used in the master/controller sense. Like how we call a great musician _maestro_. So I'm going to go with either 장인 _jang-in_ (craftsman) or 거장 _geo-jang_ (virtuoso).



The old usage of maestro was, like sabum, to indicate a teacher. During the medieval and renaissance period, those who taught swordsmanship were referred to as maestro. The leader of a fencing salle is still referred to as maestro. I think the whole "master" thing is entirely a western thing, to be honest.



WaterGal said:


> My guess that the English use of "master"/"grandmaster" to refer to high-ranking martial artists comes from chess, where those titles have been used for a long time to refer to highly skilled players. But that's just a guess.
> 
> The title "master" might also come from the more archaic use of the word to mean "teacher" (which I think is more common in the UK), though in that case, the top master is "headmaster", not "grandmaster".



The literal meaning of 'kwanjang' is ' head of the school' or 'head of the gym' so headmaster is probably the closest English translation. It can be (and is, by some) argued that if you own your own school, that makes you kwanjang regardless of rank. I know one local school that is run by a KKW 5th Dan who uses that term for himself. His instructor (a KKW 8th Dan about 2 hours from here) endorses the practice.
The 'nim' in sabumnim or kwanjangnim is, as I mentioned, an honorific, not part of the title.

Ultimately, I think that while it would be nice if the words were used correctly, it's not going to happen.
In our own school, the tradition is that the head of our branch of the Moo Duk Kwan is "Kwanjangnim" and the chief instructor in our program is "Sabumnim" while other instructors are referred to as "Sabum." This always makes me cringe just a little. Since adding the "nim" suffix implies respect, using the title for someone else without the "nim" implies a lack of respect. The "nim" is left off when referring to oneself, but never when referring to another (unless you're being intentionally rude).
I don't know that it's worth the struggle to correct the usage. Everybody knows how it's MEANT, even if it's incorrect.
If anybody cares, the correct term for assistant instructors would be either kyosa(nim) or busabum(nim).


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it's not. The word "Sabum" means "teacher" not Master. Nim is an honorific signifying respect. So "sabumnim" mean, roughly, 'respected teacher.' I do not think there is a word that translates directly as "master" in this context.



I disagree with this. I think Kukkiwon considers Sabum to be the closest word to master they have. The Kukkiwon calls their course for educating foreign masters the "International Taekwondo Master Course" and the certification part in Korean uses 사범 as the equivalent word.







Teacher is generally Sonsaeng(nim) (선생님) and is used for school teachers (and as a general polite term meaning mr/mrs/miss). 



Dirty Dog said:


> The other commonly mis-used term for a master instructor is "kwanjang" (or kwanjangnim) but that is closer to "headmaster" an old term for the head of a school, or 'chief instructor' perhaps.



Or "school owner". It felt weird to me when I went to Korea and my friends students were all calling him Kwanjangnim, as I (mistakenly) thought that was reserved for the heads of the kwans (original schools). He explained the term just means "school owner" so it's quite normal for the owner/head instructor to be called Kwanjangnim and the other masters that he hires to teach the classes are Sabumnim.


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> I disagree with this. I think Kukkiwon considers Sabum to be the closest word to master they have. The Kukkiwon calls their course for educating foreign masters the "International Taekwondo Master Course" and the certification part in Korean uses 사범 as the equivalent word.



I haven't the slightest doubt that it may be the closest equivalent, but that still isn't what it means. As with so many things, there is no direct literal translation between the Korean and English terms. 
I get my translations from our Kwanjangnim, who was born and raised in Korea. He's been in the US since 1969, so his English is also quite fluent. As he puts it, we're not actually translating, we trying to convey concepts.



> Teacher is generally Sonsaeng(nim) (선생님) and is used for school teachers (and as a general polite term meaning mr/mrs/miss).



This word he says is closest to "Sir/Mam" in English. As you say, it's sort of a general term of respect.



> Or "school owner". It felt weird to me when I went to Korea and my friends students were all calling him Kwanjangnim, as I (mistakenly) thought that was reserved for the heads of the kwans (original schools). He explained the term just means "school owner" so it's quite normal for the owner/head instructor to be called Kwanjangnim and the other masters that he hires to teach the classes are Sabumnim.



We're in agreement here. As a title, the closest English cognate seems to be headmaster, but the literal translation is 'head of the gym" which is also pretty darn close to 'owner of the gym.' Originally, yes, it meant the head of the kwans, but at that time the head of the kwan and the head of an individual school tended to be the same person.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> I haven't the slightest doubt that it may be the closest equivalent, but that still isn't what it means. As with so many things, there is no direct literal translation between the Korean and English terms.
> I get my translations from our Kwanjangnim, who was born and raised in Korea. He's been in the US since 1969, so his English is also quite fluent. As he puts it, we're not actually translating, we trying to convey concepts.



Absolutely, but that's also the same throughout most of Korean. It doesn't change the fact that when Koreans use the title Master in English they use Sabumnim in Korean, so as close as they can get they are equivalent. It's often also translated (in general Korean) to 교사 (kyosa) which means more like instructor, but again in some contexts we would use master (I studied painting under a strict master - "나는 엄격한 *교사* 밑에서 그림을 배웠다"). In Taekwondo and Korean martial arts specifically though, Kyosa is used to mean an instructor/helper that isn't a master.

Still, no offence, but I'll go with the Kukkiwon's use of the term Master and Sabum as being equivalent over your instructor that I've never met ;-)

As an interesting side note though, the Korean movie "Master" was written as 마스터 (Ma-seu-teo).


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Still, no offence, but I'll go with the Kukkiwon's use of the term Master and Sabum as being equivalent over your instructor that I've never met ;-)



Well sure. Because you're a Kukkiwon Fanboy and I'm not.


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## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> Still, no offence, but I'll go with the Kukkiwon's use of the term Master and Sabum as being equivalent over your instructor that I've never met ;-)
> 
> .



Though he does not mention the org by name I think Forrest Morgan in "Living the Martial Way" addresses an org who reduced the rank for the title "Master" to 4th Degree. 

Any KKW aficionados recall when tit was before it was reduced to 4th Degree?


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## granfire

andyjeffries said:


> Absolutely, but that's also the same throughout most of Korean. It doesn't change the fact that when Koreans use the title Master in English they use Sabumnim in Korean, so as close as they can get they are equivalent. It's often also translated (in general Korean) to 교사 (kyosa) which means more like instructor, but again in some contexts we would use master (I studied painting under a strict master - "나는 엄격한 *교사* 밑에서 그림을 배웠다"). In Taekwondo and Korean martial arts specifically though, Kyosa is used to mean an instructor/helper that isn't a master.
> 
> Still, no offence, but I'll go with the Kukkiwon's use of the term Master and Sabum as being equivalent over your instructor that I've never met ;-)
> 
> As an interesting side note though, the Korean movie "Master" was written as 마스터 (Ma-seu-teo).


well, when you refer to a teacher in Japanese, you say Sensei.
If you refer to yourself as teacher, you use Kyoshi. Same thing.
We just lack the nuances of humbleness....


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## Rough Rider

TrueJim said:


> I've always assumed that the word _master_ is being used in the sense of "master craftsman" -- somebody who is supremely skilled in their craft -- as opposed to the word being used in the master/controller sense.



I've noticed that when my instructor signs things like promotion certificated, typed under his signature is:

Jon Doe
Master Instructor

I think that falls in line with what you're saying.  When speaking to or about him, we just say "Master Doe."  We only use "Sabumnim" when bowing in and out.  Example- the senior student will say "Everybody face Master Doe.  Cha-ryeut.  Sabumnim kke.  Gyeong-nye."


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## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> Though he does not mention the org by name I think Forrest Morgan in "Living the Martial Way" addresses an org who reduced the rank for the title "Master" to 4th Degree.
> 
> Any KKW aficionados recall when tit was before it was reduced to 4th Degree?



No, it's been 4th Degree for Master for all my Taekwondo career (start 1986). The Kukkiwon master instructor course (used to be called the FIC - Foreign Instructor Course) was always open to qualifying from 4th Degree upwards.

The funny thing is that it seems quite common (at least in the UK) for when someone reaches 5th Dan they suddenly change their tune and say "well, 4th Dan is more like a junior master, a true master is at 5th Dan". Hahahaha. Never doing that!


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## TrueJim

andyjeffries said:


> The funny thing is that it seems quite common (at least in the UK) for when someone reaches 5th Dan they suddenly change their tune and say "well, 4th Dan is more like a junior master, a true master is at 5th Dan".



The 4th dans I've met have all had such good technique that I don't feel as though I'm seeing "improved" technique at higher dan. In other words, the 4th dans that I've met have already "mastered" the techniques of taekwondo. I wonder what characteristics (other than years of service to the art) would make somebody think that a 5th dan is more wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, mastery-blastery than a 4th dan. Like: are the punches punchier? The kicks are kickier?


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## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> The 4th dans I've met have all had such good technique that I don't feel as though I'm seeing "improved" technique at higher dan. In other words, the 4th dans that I've met have already "mastered" the techniques of taekwondo. I wonder what characteristics (other than years of service to the art) would make somebody think that a 5th dan is more wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, mastery-blastery than a 4th dan. Like: are the punches punchier? The kicks are kickier?



I think that gets into the debate about whether mastery is about pretty technique, or depth of understanding (personally I think it's some of both).
I am sure we've all known people who have really excellent technique, but don't really understand application. Or who can do gorgeous forms, but can't generate enough power to punch their way out of a paper bag. 
From my point of view, if mastery is about pretty technique, I'm screwed. Because there is no way in the world I will EVER have kicks as pretty as I did 30 years ago. But I think I'm much better at teaching those techniques than I used to be, and I think my understanding of the underlying principles behind the techniques is light years ahead of where it was 30 years ago.


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## Earl Weiss

TrueJim said:


> The 4th dans I've met have all had such good technique that I don't feel as though I'm seeing "improved" technique at higher dan. In other words, the 4th dans that I've met have already "mastered" the techniques of taekwondo. I wonder what characteristics (other than years of service to the art) would make somebody think that a 5th dan is more wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, mastery-blastery than a 4th dan. Like: are the punches punchier? The kicks are kickier?


At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above.  As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?


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## JR 137

TrueJim said:


> The 4th dans I've met have all had such good technique that I don't feel as though I'm seeing "improved" technique at higher dan. In other words, the 4th dans that I've met have already "mastered" the techniques of taekwondo. I wonder what characteristics (other than years of service to the art) would make somebody think that a 5th dan is more wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey, mastery-blastery than a 4th dan. Like: are the punches punchier? The kicks are kickier?


I’m not talking about the difference between 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th etc. (most karate organizations I know use the master title in one or another at 6th dan); I’m talking about the difference between “master” and non-master...

It seems up to the master rank, it’s about what you’ve taken from the art.  At master and above, it seems like it’s about what you’ve contributed to it.  IMO there’s a big difference between the two.


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## TrueJim

Earl Weiss said:


> At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above.  As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?



There are more Kukkiwon poomsae after 4th dan of course, but it's not clear to me that there's much significant new technique after 4th dan? I guess my larger point is: if you showed me a 5th or 6th dan doing (say) a Side Kick vs. a 4th dan doing the same technique -- I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a 6th dan performance and a 4th dan performance. So to Andy's comment, what makes a 5th dan a "real" master in some people's eyes, but a 4th dan only a "junior" master?

To JR137's point, you could argue that the difference is how much you've contributed to the art. To Dirty Dog's point, you could argue that the difference is one's depth of understanding.  

I'm not saying I disagree with these distinctions (because I don't disagree), I'm saying: I'm not sure why somebody would view 5th dan as necessarily being more "masterly" than 4th dan. For example, a 4th dan dojang owner is probably contributing more and thinking more about the art than a 5th dan hobbyist.


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## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above.  As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?



I would say because "Master" isn't the top title. A master craftsman doesn't necessarily know everything.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Earl Weiss said:


> At 4th Dan have they learned the entire syllabus for your system or is there more in the syllabus for 4th Dan and above.  As pointed out in Living the Martial Way, how are you a "Master" in a system if you haven't learned the entire syllabus?



I think this would depend in part (at least for many systems) in how you define "the entire syllabus." We (like many systems) have new forms for each rank up through 9th Dan. But, frankly, there's no new material in them. They're movements and techniques that you will already know linked together in a new way, but they're not new techniques. 
I would assume (hope) that the individuals understanding of these movements would continue to improve, as would their ability to teach them, but I think it might be a stretch to consider that part of the syllabus.


----------



## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> There are more Kukkiwon poomsae after 4th dan of course, but it's not clear to me that there's much significant new technique after 4th dan? I guess my larger point is: if you showed me a 5th or 6th dan doing (say) a Side Kick vs. a 4th dan doing the same technique -- I'm not sure I could tell the difference between a 6th dan performance and a 4th dan performance. So to Andy's comment, what makes a 5th dan a "real" master in some people's eyes, but a 4th dan only a "junior" master?
> 
> To JR137's point, you could argue that the difference is how much you've contributed to the art. To Dirty Dog's point, you could argue that the difference is one's depth of understanding.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with these distinctions (because I don't disagree), I'm saying: I'm not sure why somebody would view 5th dan as necessarily being more "masterly" than 4th dan. For example, a 4th dan dojang owner is probably contributing more and thinking more about the art than a 5th dan hobbyist.



Make it more difficult... how about comparing a 25 year old 2nd Dan who competes at the national level in forms competition vs a 65 year old 7th Dan with arthritic hips.
I think it's probably easy to guess who is likely to have the prettier kick. But I'd rather train under the guy with a deeper knowledge.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> Make it more difficult... how about comparing a 25 year old 2nd Dan who competes at the national level in forms competition vs a 65 year old 7th Dan with arthritic hips.
> I think it's probably easy to guess who is likely to have the prettier kick. But I'd rather train under the guy with a deeper knowledge.


True, but at what point is deeper knowledge guaranteed? My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying, but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

As an aside, the "trainer for you" of course depends on your goals.  If your goal is "to be a national competitor", then I think you will agree that the answer may be different that if your goal is "to learn martial arts" in general.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> True, but at what point is deeper knowledge guaranteed?



I'd say... never. But I'd like to think that the odds get progressively better as rank increases.



> My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying, but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.



That's pretty much the impression I have, though I can't say from personal experience. I stopped KKW after 2nd Dan. 
I also have the impression that you can transfer rank from similar systems to the KKW, as long as you agree to teach the KKW curriculum. Although how you're supposed to have learned the KKW curriculum is a mystery to me. Combine that with their skip dan program, and the whole thing becomes a great big confusing mish mash.


----------



## TrueJim

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> My impression is that in KKW TKD, pretty much anyone can get to 4th dan by showing up and trying...



I don't know that this is _generally_ true, but certainly I'd agree that there are some masters who will promote with little rigor (or who will promote for compensation). So I agree, anybody can get a 4th dan...*if* one "shops around" for the right tester.

That having been said, I don't know that _most_ masters would promote to 4th dan merely for showing up. But there are likely some who do.



Gwai Lo Dan said:


> ...but beyond that, you have to be decent (in knowledge and ability) and have made some sort of contribution. I'd love to hear your thoughts.



I think that if a person has "shopped around" to find a master who will promote you to 4th dan, that same tester would be willing to promote you to 5th dan. I suspect that the testers who have low standards have low standards all around, and probably don't make a distinction between 4th dan and 5th dan.


----------



## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Hello,
> I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether.
> 
> Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do.
> 
> First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense. We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus.   Do you all find this true?  Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical?  I like the idea of studying a martial art that I can continue if I move again. Tae Kwan Do seems to be in every town. But I don’t want my daughter to have false confidence and not have the self-defense skills it is important for a woman to have.
> 
> 
> *****
> I am not as post savvy as most people on this site so I am going to answer in line. Hopefully is will make sense. I am going to skip a lot of the history lesson in my answers(s)
> If you go way back in the BC era, two of the Korean Dynasty's (Goguryeo and Silla) were heavily influenced by China. Korea was occupied by Japan from1910 - 1945. During the 35 year occupation most Korean traditions were prohibited. Naturally, there has been a great of consolidation in learning and passing down of the Martial Arts due to these influences mixing elements of Karate, Taekkyon, and Kung Fu. Some before and some after the liberation from Japan, nine Kwan(schools)  were created, each being different in their teaching methods. These Kwans were such a strong cultural and economic influence the Korean government urged the Kwans to consolidate which happened around 1974 under the moniker Korea Tae Kwon Do Association. The Kukkiwon was established as the governing body for TKD in Korea. Not everyone adhered or follow the Kukkiwon standards so there are many offshoots, ITF, ATA, etc...
> This is where it gets confusing talking about Tae Kwon Do as a single style. Factually it is not, so whatever someone's exposure is relative to TKD makes an impression, making it harder to explain. So first and foremost, find out WHAT TKD school your child is going to. Then a definite answer can be give. In regards to your concerns with your 6 year old; at this age style is much less important than the instructor and instruction. Find out if it is purely a TKD sport school, some World Tae Kwon Do Federation schools are this way and lack the depth you had learning Shutokan so the differences will be very evident.
> *****
> 
> Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms).  In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred.  Why?  Am I misunderstanding something?  The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next.
> 
> *****
> More modern TKD schools teaching the Taeguek forms do teach a walking stance. More traditional schools who teach forms other than or along with the Taeguek's,  as a rule teach longer stances. Someone else touched on this. I was taught longer stances as part of the elegance of the form but also for conditioning. Stand in a long front or horse stance for a while and you will understand. This conditioning greatly helps your speed in sparring when you are often in a shorter stance. As far as the bobbing, I agree with the boxing analogy, it is not something you highlight but it is useful.
> *****
> 
> Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)?  I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?
> 
> *****
> I am pretty sure you are referring to Pyeong Ahn II Bu. You may also hear name Pinon Sho Dan. If this is the first form your child is learning then it is likely they are going to a more traditional school, at least where forms matter. Regarding your question(s) and the Moo Duk Kwan gentlemen who posted, there are three Basic forms (Kicho Hyeong iI, ee, and sam bu) that are usually taught with the five Pyeong Ahn forms. The first one is easy to recognize because it is only down blocks and middle punches.
> *****
> 
> I’ve been enjoying classes very much. I’d forgotten how glorious it is to push yourself and train hard and become so in tune with your body. As kicking was always my favorite part of Shutokan, I’m enjoying the plethora of kicks in Tae Kwan Do. Apparently I understand too much theory already as I’m asking questions that are uncommon for a white belt to ask.
> 
> That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools?  At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here.
> 
> *****
> To my knowledge, there is no ONE rule for belt colors. That said here is my two cents. There are nine under black belt ranks and nine black belt ranks. Period. Too many schools use extra colored belts and stripes on a belt to increase the number of testings required to get to black belt. Starting out white and then having to test for white would be a flag for me. You are on to something with the arrangement of colors in my opinion.
> *****
> 
> Anyhow, because of my background I’m picking things up quickly. I tested for white belt in December and my instructor says he wants me to double test at the end of this month since I already know most of the material and whatnot.  I’m actually pretty excited about that. I just wish I had the time to practice that I did back when I was a teen. Being a mom to three little kids, plus two work from home jobs (university professor and database developer) in addition to all the typical household chores, leaves me little time to practice.  Most of my practice time is visualizing while rocking the baby to sleep or cooking dinner or drifting off to sleep at night.
> 
> *****
> I very much appreciate where you are coming from. It has always been about the commitment.
> *****
> 
> Anyhow, Thank you for reading. I’m excited for this new martial arts journey! I just hope my old way of doing things doesn’t trip me up too much!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> I also have the impression that you can transfer rank from similar systems to the KKW, as long as you agree to teach the KKW curriculum. Although how you're supposed to have learned the KKW curriculum is a mystery to me. Combine that with their skip dan program, and the whole thing becomes a great big confusing mish mash.



As I understand it, to transfer your rank from another TKD organization, you have to do a "special dan test", which is basically a regular dan test for that rank, done in front of a panel. 

Mr WaterGal went to the Master Instructor course they did in Denver last year, and they had some guys out from KKW offering a "special dan test" and a skip dan test the same week. Apparently, doing the instructor course was a requirement for doing a special or skip test past a certain rank, though I don't know if that's _generally _true, or just something they did for that event to get more people to do the Master Instructor course.

Anyway, however you learn the KKW curriculum, you theoretically do have to demonstrate _some_ level of proficiency in it in order to pass the test & get your rank transferred. How strict or comprehensive they are about it.... I dunno.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> As I understand it, to transfer your rank from another TKD organization, you have to do a "special dan test", which is basically a regular dan test for that rank, done in front of a panel.
> 
> Mr WaterGal went to the Master Instructor course they did in Denver last year, and they had some guys out from KKW offering a "special dan test" and a skip dan test the same week. Apparently, doing the instructor course was a requirement for doing a special or skip test past a certain rank, though I don't know if that's _generally _true, or just something they did for that event to get more people to do the Master Instructor course.
> 
> Anyway, however you learn the KKW curriculum, you theoretically do have to demonstrate _some_ level of proficiency in it in order to pass the test & get your rank transferred._* How strict or comprehensive they are about it.... I dunno.*_



The highlighted is the part I have doubts about. In the past, we've had KKW 8th and 9th Dans on this forum offering to transfer rank (I refer to it as "assimilation rank" in honor of the KKW's Borg-like nature) for just the registration fee (which is, what, $100?). As I recall (though I do not claim an eidetic memory...) no mention was made of any special tests.
I do personally know one fellow who was a MDK 2nd Dan and did a skip dan to KKW 4th Dan without ever holding any other KKW rank. As you said, he did the KKW 4th Dan material and nothing else. I can personally vouch for his knowledge of the KKW curriculum, but he was never tested on it.
He now runs a KKW-ish school. I say -ish because he awards KKW rank but does not teach the KKW curriculum; he still teaches the MDK curriculum.


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## WaterGal

Yeah, there's definitely some less than awesome promotions that have gone on.

Now, I haven't really been following any KKW developments in the last 6 months because.... life, but I get the impression that KKW is _trying _to find some ways to tighten up standards on these things without making things difficult for school owners. I think that's why the master instructor course was required for the special testers - so even if you went into the special test only knowing, say, the yudanja forms through Shipjin and having some basic competency in Olympic sparring and whatever you learned in the ATA or MDK or whatever, you'd come out the end of the week having done a crash course in the minute details of all the Taegeuk forms, the history of KKW, some basic self-defense techniques(*), etc.

(*Edit: THIS was something I found exciting - that KKW is, apparently, developing a self-defense curriculum that's not BS. I'm trying to remember the details on this, but the guy putting it together is, IIRC, the guy that heads up the program to teach TKD to the Korean Army, and he was the one that came out to Denver and taught that part of the course.)

Edit 2: I think that requiring transfer/skip testers to test in front of an official panel, and requiring high-level transfers/skips to do the Master Instructor course, is a good compromise between "anyone can do whatever" and the severe logistical difficulty of requiring panel testing for everything above 2nd dan like they were suggesting a couple years ago. I don't know if that's something mandated by KKW, or was something decided for this event, but I'm a fan.


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## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> (*Edit: THIS was something I found exciting - that KKW is, apparently, developing a self-defense curriculum that's not BS. I'm trying to remember the details on this, but the guy putting it together is, IIRC, the guy that heads up the program to teach TKD to the Korean Army, and he was the one that came out to Denver and taught that part of the course.)



We were shown a rough video (low production quality, but the entire syllabus) on the Master Instructor Course before we had our self-defence physical lesson at Kukkiwon in 2016. It really is a large syllabus of self-defence and grappling movements. I recorded it on my iPad so I have it for reference.


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## skribs

My Master was a martial arts instructor in the Korean Special Forces.  He has a lot of non-BS self defense in his curriculum.


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## Michele123

Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff  but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure. 


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff  but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure.



He said tournaments aren't noisy? That certainly does not match my experience.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Thank you to those that responded about tournaments. I decided to sign both myself and my daughter up. I’m hoping it goes well because she does have some sensory auditory stuff  but our instructor assured me it doesn’t usually get too noisy. I’m looking forward to experiencing a tournament for the first time! Y daughter & I are both white belts so I’m hoping that means low-pressure.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah best of luck Michele! Let us know how you go, excited for ya


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## Michele123

Tournament is scheduled for this weekend. I’ll let you know how we do. 

In the meantime I got to break boards for the first time!  When I studied karate, the school I studied was all about self defense and saw board breaking as gimmicky so we didn’t do it. So this was my first experience. I was shocked at how easy it was. Like you don’t even feel the board, you just hear it snap. Crazy. I would’ve thought there was more to it than that.  In any case it was pretty cool. 


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## TrueJim

Michele123 said:


> I was shocked at how easy it was...



I think board breaking mostly comes in two flavors: either (1) well that was shockingly easy, or (2) it didn't break ow ow ow ow.


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## Buka

I hadn't read any of this thread until last night. What a great read. Love it.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Tournament is scheduled for this weekend. I’ll let you know how we do.
> 
> In the meantime I got to break boards for the first time!  When I studied karate, the school I studied was all about self defense and saw board breaking as gimmicky so we didn’t do it. So this was my first experience. I was shocked at how easy it was. Like you don’t even feel the board, you just hear it snap. Crazy. I would’ve thought there was more to it than that.  In any case it was pretty cool.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's awesome, well done! Every time I've broken boards I've found it to actually be harder than I thought (I could definitely feel the board..), maybe your technique is far better than mine Michele! 

And I really think board breaking has massive benefits... and don't think it's gimmicky at all. Of course it's a primary demonstration tool that's used, but actually doing the break requires so much: focus, accuracy, technique, power, good stance, overcoming fear and doubt, COMMITMENT... I love it.. and would jump at the chance to do more of it.


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## Michele123

_Simon_ said:


> That's awesome, well done! Every time I've broken boards I've found it to actually be harder than I thought (I could definitely feel the board..), maybe your technique is far better than mine Michele!
> 
> And I really think board breaking has massive benefits... and don't think it's gimmicky at all. Of course it's a primary demonstration tool that's used, but actually doing the break requires so much: focus, accuracy, technique, power, good stance, overcoming fear and doubt, COMMITMENT... I love it.. and would jump at the chance to do more of it.



Hmm, maybe it’s the kind of board used? I only broke with a kick (side kick). Maybe if I’d used a different technique it would have been more noticeable. Or maybe because I expected a lot of resistance?

And it was totally fun. It made me want to run out to Home Depot and buy a bunch of wood. But I would still need someone to hold for me so...  I guess I just have to wait. 


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> Hmm, maybe it’s the kind of board used?



What sort of board was it - as in what material and thickness?


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> Hmm, maybe it’s the kind of board used? I only broke with a kick (side kick). Maybe if I’d used a different technique it would have been more noticeable. Or maybe because I expected a lot of resistance?
> 
> And it was totally fun. It made me want to run out to Home Depot and buy a bunch of wood. But I would still need someone to hold for me so...  I guess I just have to wait.



Well done. The first breaks are always a challenge, because there's a little voice in the back of your head telling you it's going to hurt. Eventually, you learn that it only hurts if you fail. Overcoming that mental block is one of the reasons to do breaking.

You don't say, but I'm assuming this was a single, 1" pine board, probably 10x12? That's the most common size.

If so, then honestly it SHOULD be pretty easy. Especially early in your training, breaks shouldn't be all that difficult. Anyone in our program who is above white belt has broken one that size, regardless of their age, gender, or size. As you progress, you'll likely do more challenging techniques and add boards to increase the difficulty. Eventually you'll probably do multi-station breaks and power breaks.

In our program, we have a required break with a specific technique for each colored belt. Dan holders pick their own; they're just told to go show off. Personally, I favor concrete pavers for my own breaking and tend to do heavy power breaks (the stack in my avatar is ten 8x16x2" pavers) and speed breaks.

If you want to get your own boards and practice, it shouldn't be too difficult to find another student to work with. Or a family member can hold for you. Just ask your instructor to show you how to hold. You need a good front stance, leaning into the break, and you need to grip the board properly to minimize the chance that your finger tips will be in the way of the strike.

If you really enjoy it and want lots of practice, it might be worth buying a rebreakable board.


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> What sort of board was it - as in what material and thickness?



I did both a rebreakable board and 1” thick pine. 



Dirty Dog said:


> Well done. The first breaks are always a challenge, because there's a little voice in the back of your head telling you it's going to hurt. Eventually, you learn that it only hurts if you fail. Overcoming that mental block is one of the reasons to do breaking.
> 
> You don't say, but I'm assuming this was a single, 1" pine board, probably 10x12? That's the most common size.
> 
> If so, then honestly it SHOULD be pretty easy. Especially early in your training, breaks shouldn't be all that difficult. Anyone in our program who is above white belt has broken one that size, regardless of their age, gender, or size. As you progress, you'll likely do more challenging techniques and add boards to increase the difficulty. Eventually you'll probably do multi-station breaks and power breaks.
> 
> In our program, we have a required break with a specific technique for each colored belt. Dan holders pick their own; they're just told to go show off. Personally, I favor concrete pavers for my own breaking and tend to do heavy power breaks (the stack in my avatar is ten 8x16x2" pavers) and speed breaks.
> 
> If you want to get your own boards and practice, it shouldn't be too difficult to find another student to work with. Or a family member can hold for you. Just ask your instructor to show you how to hold. You need a good front stance, leaning into the break, and you need to grip the board properly to minimize the chance that your finger tips will be in the way of the strike.
> 
> If you really enjoy it and want lots of practice, it might be worth buying a rebreakable board.



Yes. I did both a rebreakable as well as a 1” thick pine. 

There are required breaks at each belt level at this school too. It’s why I was breaking, practicing for my test. I’ve watched a few tests, the breaking seemed to be the most common thing that people got tripped up on and prevented from passing their test so I expected it to be much harder.  Though those were mostly kids 8-12 or so, but more advanced in rank than I am.  Maybe it had more to do with technique and body size. 

Maybe I will look into a rebreakable board for home. I know I saw one on Craigslist not to long ago.  When it comes to other techniques, is s rebreakable board as helpful as the real thing?




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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> Maybe I will look into a rebreakable board for home. I know I saw one on Craigslist not to long ago.  When it comes to other techniques, is s rebreakable board as helpful as the real thing?



Depends. Not all rebreakables are created equal. There have been a number of threads here if you want to do a bit of research. Personally, I like the UMAB rebreakables. The design holds up much better than others I've tried, and they come in everything from ridiculously easy to very tough. They're color coded by how hard they are to break (white, yellow, green, blue, brown, black). The green board is engineered to break at the same power level as a standard 1" pine board, and in my experience this is true. They're stackable, so you can easily adjust how difficult the break is.


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## Earl Weiss

Michele123 said:


> And it was totally fun. It made me want to run out to Home Depot and buy a bunch of wood. But I would still need someone to hold for me so...  I guess I just have to wait.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you are handy or know someone who is for not a lot of $ you can build your own holder. 

https://1c47d0f0-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites...mjHMHet2hyDfwrxaAjUJtwlewgyisu&attredirects=0

Along with re breakables that are the same dimension you can break to your hearts content.


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## Michele123

Well, we had the tournament this morning. It was an interesting experience. I’m glad we did it, but I’m not sure it’s the kind of thing we will do often. 

They had us in groups based on age and rank. My 6yo daughter only had one other person to compete against for forms. (The only other white belt her age). She did very poorly (couldn’t remember how to start her form) but I’m not surprised because she has continually refused to practice with me. The other girl did somewhat poorly as well (went the wrong direction and didn’t always do the correct side) but overall was light years ahead of my daughter. Because there were only two kids, my daughter still got a silver medal. I’m glad my daughter is happy, but I think it was silly that she still got a medal. How is she supposed to learn to work hard for things if she still gets a medal for not working hard?

For my pattern, there were four of us competing. So not much competition. There were two of us white belts and there were two orange (which comes right after white in this association). I was nervous at first but I got to do my pattern last so that helped. I chose to do the same pattern as the orange belts did but did a much better job. Both of them got mixed up in at least one part and did the wrong move. Also, neither one had any power or snap to their techniques. The other white belt did the white belt pattern and did a good job for what it was but still no power and snap (though more understandable for her I think). Anyhow, I won first but there wasn’t much competition. It was supposed to be all adult colored belts but the one higher rank they had they moved to compete with the junior black belts because there was such a gap (she was several ranks above orange).  I’m pleased with myself for doing well. I knew I mailed my pattern, but I would feel better about it if there had been more competition.  I’m not a fan of participation awards and this is what that felt like.  The head judge did ask me if I had prior experience in another system. Not sure if that was due to me doing something well or if my stances are still a bit off.  My husband took video so I’ll have to go back and watch it. 

For board breaking, my daughter got to break a board for the first time ever. They put all the boys and girls the same age together though, so there was more competition. There were three ranks competing and she didn’t medal. She was very disappointed but I was just impressed she was able to break one of her boards (heel stomp) since she has never tried before and she usually doesn’t give new things her all. 

I did very poorly with the board breaks. They had us break two boards back to back (so double the thickness) twice. Both with a spinning side kick. Do one, run to the other side and do another. I got nervous about the double board thing because I hadn’t tried that yet. Then I didn’t like up properly (my instruction told me where to stand last time so I never thought about it). I stood square to the boards and when I turned, well I wasn’t square anymore. We were also told that speed counted so... I didn’t break either double board. Very frustrating. The second double board I missed so badly I scraped up the inside of my foot on the side of the board. There were only three of us adult colored belts competing though (myself and the two orange belts from earlier) so I got a participation award... I mean medal. I actually ended up in second (maybe because my form was better than the other orange belt that didn’t break any?). One of the orange belts broke one set of boards the other didn’t break any. 

Sparring was weird. Rather than pair my daughter up with the other white belt girl, she had to spar with two taller boys who were higher ranks than her. Actually, they did all the kids in groups of three and did a round robin thing. So everyone medaled. Again, not impressed though my daughter was glad to get another medal. Third place. I’m more proud that she managed to score two points on one of the boys (the second one she sparred). She really needs to learn how to block. 

I didn’t get to stay for sparring because it was way past nap time for my 1 & 3 year olds and they were having a really hard time in the bleachers. Since it was an hour drive I made the decision to just leave so we could get them to bed. I was too stressed by their behavior to focus on sparring anyway. Hopefully I’ll get to next time I go to a tournament (hopefully in two months). Next time I’ll leave the younger two home with dad. My 6yo seemed able to handle the noise pretty well so she should do ok next time. 

So that was my experience. I will hopefully try one more tournament in April since that is closer to home, but I won’t be traveling for any again until my youngest can go down for a nap without me. Once her sleep schedule gets thrown off it is a nightmare for several days until we get her back on track.  Also, it would be more fun if there were more people to compete against. It’s hard to feel good about an award where there weren’t many competitors. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> spinning side kick



I've not heard that term before, I had to google it - but learning and comparing with other systems is why I'm really here.

If it makes you feel better about a participation award - well, you did beat everyone who didn't show up


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> I've not heard that term before, I had to google it - but learning and comparing with other systems is why I'm really here.
> 
> If it makes you feel better about a participation award - well, you did beat everyone who didn't show up



I think I used the wrong term. I think it’s called a turning side kick in Taekwando. My old style and terminology were coming through. 


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## pdg

Well, there's Taekwondo and there's Taekwon-do (as well as derivatives of both) - I've seen many differences in terminology between them...


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> Well, we had the tournament this morning. It was an interesting experience. I’m glad we did it, but I’m not sure it’s the kind of thing we will do often.
> 
> They had us in groups based on age and rank. My 6yo daughter only had one other person to compete against for forms. (The only other white belt her age). She did very poorly (couldn’t remember how to start her form) but I’m not surprised because she has continually refused to practice with me. The other girl did somewhat poorly as well (went the wrong direction and didn’t always do the correct side) but overall was light years ahead of my daughter. Because there were only two kids, my daughter still got a silver medal. I’m glad my daughter is happy, but I think it was silly that she still got a medal. How is she supposed to learn to work hard for things if she still gets a medal for not working hard?
> 
> For my pattern, there were four of us competing. So not much competition. There were two of us white belts and there were two orange (which comes right after white in this association). I was nervous at first but I got to do my pattern last so that helped. I chose to do the same pattern as the orange belts did but did a much better job. Both of them got mixed up in at least one part and did the wrong move. Also, neither one had any power or snap to their techniques. The other white belt did the white belt pattern and did a good job for what it was but still no power and snap (though more understandable for her I think). Anyhow, I won first but there wasn’t much competition. It was supposed to be all adult colored belts but the one higher rank they had they moved to compete with the junior black belts because there was such a gap (she was several ranks above orange).  I’m pleased with myself for doing well. I knew I mailed my pattern, but I would feel better about it if there had been more competition.  I’m not a fan of participation awards and this is what that felt like.  The head judge did ask me if I had prior experience in another system. Not sure if that was due to me doing something well or if my stances are still a bit off.  My husband took video so I’ll have to go back and watch it.
> 
> For board breaking, my daughter got to break a board for the first time ever. They put all the boys and girls the same age together though, so there was more competition. There were three ranks competing and she didn’t medal. She was very disappointed but I was just impressed she was able to break one of her boards (heel stomp) since she has never tried before and she usually doesn’t give new things her all.
> 
> I did very poorly with the board breaks. They had us break two boards back to back (so double the thickness) twice. Both with a spinning side kick. Do one, run to the other side and do another. I got nervous about the double board thing because I hadn’t tried that yet. Then I didn’t like up properly (my instruction told me where to stand last time so I never thought about it). I stood square to the boards and when I turned, well I wasn’t square anymore. We were also told that speed counted so... I didn’t break either double board. Very frustrating. The second double board I missed so badly I scraped up the inside of my foot on the side of the board. There were only three of us adult colored belts competing though (myself and the two orange belts from earlier) so I got a participation award... I mean medal. I actually ended up in second (maybe because my form was better than the other orange belt that didn’t break any?). One of the orange belts broke one set of boards the other didn’t break any.
> 
> Sparring was weird. Rather than pair my daughter up with the other white belt girl, she had to spar with two taller boys who were higher ranks than her. Actually, they did all the kids in groups of three and did a round robin thing. So everyone medaled. Again, not impressed though my daughter was glad to get another medal. Third place. I’m more proud that she managed to score two points on one of the boys (the second one she sparred). She really needs to learn how to block.
> 
> I didn’t get to stay for sparring because it was way past nap time for my 1 & 3 year olds and they were having a really hard time in the bleachers. Since it was an hour drive I made the decision to just leave so we could get them to bed. I was too stressed by their behavior to focus on sparring anyway. Hopefully I’ll get to next time I go to a tournament (hopefully in two months). Next time I’ll leave the younger two home with dad. My 6yo seemed able to handle the noise pretty well so she should do ok next time.
> 
> So that was my experience. I will hopefully try one more tournament in April since that is closer to home, but I won’t be traveling for any again until my youngest can go down for a nap without me. Once her sleep schedule gets thrown off it is a nightmare for several days until we get her back on track.  Also, it would be more fun if there were more people to compete against. It’s hard to feel good about an award where there weren’t many competitors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



You and your daughter competing was a victory of sorts in and of itself.  I know it’s hard to get excited about the “participation awards” as you eloquently put it, but don’t let that discourage you.  One tournament I competed in only had 2 of us competing in the weapons division (there were more people in kata and kumite though).  Winning first place didn’t feel good at all, considering I could’ve for all intents and purposes just walked through the kata and won.  The other botched his that bad, dropping the bo twice and one other point stopped and looked around trying to figure out which direction to go.  And he went the wrong way.  In fairness to him, his bo got caught on his sleeve about two moves into it, causing the first drop and he just never recovered.  He was far better than that performance.

That “tournament” taught me something invaluable - forget about everyone and everything else.  Go out and nail my kata.  I can’t control how good or bad the competition and judges are.  All I can do is go out there and do my thing the absolute best I can.  Winning medals is great and all, but after it loses its shine, I know if I exceeded my own expectations or not.  And that’s really all I’m after when all’s said and done.  Nothing else.  When you look at it that way, everyone and everything else is really just smoke and mirrors.  It took me a while to view that alleged tournament that way, but when I did, I realized that I did an awesome job that night.  Not the absolute best I’ve ever done, but pretty damn good.

When you’re competing, you’re putting yourself out there.  It’s a huge learning experience, regardless of who else is competing.  Some people seem to live for the trophies; I’d be far more satisfied with a last place finish where I performed better than I ever thought I could.  Maybe I’m crazy though


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## TrueJim

pdg said:


> well you did beat everyone who didn't show up...



I think that's a very valid point. When you divide 500 athletes by (a) age, (b) gender, (c) rank, (d) event...it shouldn't be too surprising that many divisions have only a few competitors. So maybe a person was only the best of 4, but they were the best of the 4 who felt motivated and confident enough to show up. 

(500 athletes divided into 4 age groups, 2 genders, 4 ranks, and 4 events = 500 / 128 = about 4 people per division...that's just how the math of tournaments works out. If every athlete competes in 2 events, that takes you up to 8-person divisions on average: still not a lot) 

The head of our school likes to say that attending 1 tournament equates to 1 month of attending classes. He feels that the extra pressure you put on yourself to perform at your best, the extra preparation you do to get ready, and the nerves that you have to overcome to perform in front of a large audience of strangers...that improves your skills as much as a month of training would.


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> I think I used the wrong term. I think it’s called a turning side kick in Taekwando. My old style and terminology were coming through.



The spinning side kick and turning side kick are the same thing (at least in the several styles of TKD I've studied).  If you're standing with your right foot to the rear, you'd pick up your right foot, turn clockwise (what I'd call turning backwards), and do a side kick with the right foot. It's basically the same as a spinning back kick except you turn further. I wouldn't expect a white belt to be breaking with any spinning kick.


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## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> The spinning side kick and turning side kick are the same thing (at least in the several styles of TKD I've studied).  If you're standing with your right foot to the rear, you'd pick up your right foot, turn clockwise (what I'd call turning backwards), and do a side kick with the right foot. It's basically the same as a spinning back kick except you turn further.



How much 'spin' would you consider normal for that kick - is the target in front of you in your start position?


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## Michele123

JR 137 said:


> ...  I can’t control how good or bad the competition and judges are.  All I can do is go out there and do my thing the absolute best I can.  Winning medals is great and all, but after it loses its shine, I know if I exceeded my own expectations or not.  And that’s really all I’m after when all’s said and done.  Nothing else.  When you look at it that way, everyone and everything else is really just smoke and mirrors.  It took me a while to view that alleged tournament that way, but when I did, I realized that I did an awesome job that night.  Not the absolute best I’ve ever done, but pretty damn good.
> 
> When you’re competing, you’re putting yourself out there.  It’s a huge learning experience, regardless of who else is competing.  Some people seem to live for the trophies; I’d be far more satisfied with a last place finish where I performed better than I ever thought I could.  Maybe I’m crazy though



Thank you. This really helps put things in perspective. I know I did an excellent job on my pattern. I can feel good about that. 



TrueJim said:


> I think that's a very valid point. When you divide 500 athletes by (a) age, (b) gender, (c) rank, (d) event...it shouldn't be too surprising that many divisions have only a few competitors. So maybe a person was only the best of 4, but they were the best of the 4 who felt motivated and confident enough to show up.
> 
> (500 athletes divided into 4 age groups, 2 genders, 4 ranks, and 4 events = 500 / 128 = about 4 people per division...that's just how the math of tournaments works out. If every athlete competes in 2 events, that takes you up to 8-person divisions on average: still not a lot)
> 
> The head of our school likes to say that attending 1 tournament equates to 1 month of attending classes. He feels that the extra pressure you put on yourself to perform at your best, the extra preparation you do to get ready, and the nerves that you have to overcome to perform in front of a large audience of strangers...that improves your skills as much as a month of training would.


Hmm. Thank you. So it’s common to only have four competing?  Do they always give out 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place awards when there are so few competing?  Especially when the number of competitors is equal to or less than the number of medals?  Especially in my breaking competition where there were only three of us total. Seems like they should only give out a first place award then. It feels kind of silly for taking home a medal in that when I didn’t even break the boards. 



Dirty Dog said:


> The spinning side kick and turning side kick are the same thing (at least in the several styles of TKD I've studied).  If you're standing with your right foot to the rear, you'd pick up your right foot, turn clockwise (what I'd call turning backwards), and do a side kick with the right foot. It's basically the same as a spinning back kick except you turn further. I wouldn't expect a white belt to be breaking with any spinning kick.


Yes that’s the kick, except we twist/turn about 180 before picking up the right foot to kick with. I broke a board twice using that kick in class on Tuesday. But my instructor told me where to stand and it was only one board. 



pdg said:


> How much 'spin' would you consider normal for that kick - is the target in front of you in your start position?


In our school you start facing the target, turn about 180 perhaps a touch more, and kick the target with a side kick. 



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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Well, we had the tournament this morning. It was an interesting experience. I’m glad we did it, but I’m not sure it’s the kind of thing we will do often.
> 
> They had us in groups based on age and rank. My 6yo daughter only had one other person to compete against for forms. (The only other white belt her age). She did very poorly (couldn’t remember how to start her form) but I’m not surprised because she has continually refused to practice with me. The other girl did somewhat poorly as well (went the wrong direction and didn’t always do the correct side) but overall was light years ahead of my daughter. Because there were only two kids, my daughter still got a silver medal. I’m glad my daughter is happy, but I think it was silly that she still got a medal. How is she supposed to learn to work hard for things if she still gets a medal for not working hard?
> 
> For my pattern, there were four of us competing. So not much competition. There were two of us white belts and there were two orange (which comes right after white in this association). I was nervous at first but I got to do my pattern last so that helped. I chose to do the same pattern as the orange belts did but did a much better job. Both of them got mixed up in at least one part and did the wrong move. Also, neither one had any power or snap to their techniques. The other white belt did the white belt pattern and did a good job for what it was but still no power and snap (though more understandable for her I think). Anyhow, I won first but there wasn’t much competition. It was supposed to be all adult colored belts but the one higher rank they had they moved to compete with the junior black belts because there was such a gap (she was several ranks above orange).  I’m pleased with myself for doing well. I knew I mailed my pattern, but I would feel better about it if there had been more competition.  I’m not a fan of participation awards and this is what that felt like.  The head judge did ask me if I had prior experience in another system. Not sure if that was due to me doing something well or if my stances are still a bit off.  My husband took video so I’ll have to go back and watch it.
> 
> For board breaking, my daughter got to break a board for the first time ever. They put all the boys and girls the same age together though, so there was more competition. There were three ranks competing and she didn’t medal. She was very disappointed but I was just impressed she was able to break one of her boards (heel stomp) since she has never tried before and she usually doesn’t give new things her all.
> 
> I did very poorly with the board breaks. They had us break two boards back to back (so double the thickness) twice. Both with a spinning side kick. Do one, run to the other side and do another. I got nervous about the double board thing because I hadn’t tried that yet. Then I didn’t like up properly (my instruction told me where to stand last time so I never thought about it). I stood square to the boards and when I turned, well I wasn’t square anymore. We were also told that speed counted so... I didn’t break either double board. Very frustrating. The second double board I missed so badly I scraped up the inside of my foot on the side of the board. There were only three of us adult colored belts competing though (myself and the two orange belts from earlier) so I got a participation award... I mean medal. I actually ended up in second (maybe because my form was better than the other orange belt that didn’t break any?). One of the orange belts broke one set of boards the other didn’t break any.
> 
> Sparring was weird. Rather than pair my daughter up with the other white belt girl, she had to spar with two taller boys who were higher ranks than her. Actually, they did all the kids in groups of three and did a round robin thing. So everyone medaled. Again, not impressed though my daughter was glad to get another medal. Third place. I’m more proud that she managed to score two points on one of the boys (the second one she sparred). She really needs to learn how to block.
> 
> I didn’t get to stay for sparring because it was way past nap time for my 1 & 3 year olds and they were having a really hard time in the bleachers. Since it was an hour drive I made the decision to just leave so we could get them to bed. I was too stressed by their behavior to focus on sparring anyway. Hopefully I’ll get to next time I go to a tournament (hopefully in two months). Next time I’ll leave the younger two home with dad. My 6yo seemed able to handle the noise pretty well so she should do ok next time.
> 
> So that was my experience. I will hopefully try one more tournament in April since that is closer to home, but I won’t be traveling for any again until my youngest can go down for a nap without me. Once her sleep schedule gets thrown off it is a nightmare for several days until we get her back on track.  Also, it would be more fun if there were more people to compete against. It’s hard to feel good about an award where there weren’t many competitors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah well done Michele, that's still awesome to hear, even if it was a weird first tournament for you 

Some great points made by the others. And exactly right, as long as you were happy with how you went mostly that's the important thing. And even so, doing the preparation you did introduced a new type of focus to your training, and massive props to even entering a tournament to begin with. It takes courage, and a level of commitment and willingness to put yourself out there like that. Not to mention it's a great experience competing with those you've never trained with before.

And I'd imagine there had to be some criteria for the board breaking section if no boards were broken, and you maybe had the best form.

Yeah I know what you mean about it not being a big division and it not feeling as satisfying. But yeah I've learnt no matter what, how big the division is becomes irrelevant, you just focus on what you need to do.

The first tournament I entered last year in the sparring there were I think only five or six of us. I won my first round, and lost the second only just, and got silver. But I was absolutely stoked with how I went, considering this was my first tournament in what, 12 or 13 years or so. Forms there was only me and one other guy, and got gold there, but again, happy with how I went.

The second tournament last year was very funny. I'd been quite unwell for half the year, and wasn't 100%, but I didn't care, I really wanted to enter, as it was for the State championships which I qualified for, but not only that it was far more significant to me to just enter it as a sign of how much I'd gotten through and how far I'd come. I decided to only compete in forms as the body wasn't well enough for sparring. My prep began only one week before the tournament haha, so felt a bit underprepared! Rocked up on the day... And I was the only one in my division, no one to compete against! So I got guaranteed gold, as long as I performed my form. I by no means just slopped my way through it, I gave it my all, and was happy with it. A slight stumble at one point, but I was moreso absolutely thrilled that I'd come this far to be able to compete, considering just how unwell I was. See that's the thing, no one understands the context of the leadup to the tournament that everyone goes through, and it's different for everyone. For some people it's decided a couple of weeks before "ah yeah, whatever, I guess I'll do it" (which is fine btw), and for others it's a trial of months and months of incredible emotional battles, uphill clawing, despair, and just all-round rollercoasters... 

I think the lead up speaks volumes about the benefits of the tournament, in some cases more than the actual event, and you learn quite a lot in that period 

So definitely really great of you that you entered and had a go, and had a great result still. And every tournament will be different too, so see how the next one goes


----------



## TrueJim

Michele123 said:


> So it’s common to only have four competing?  Do they always give out 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place awards when there are so few competing?



In my experience, a small local tournament will have about 400 competitors, a large local tournament may have as many as 1,000 competitors.  In my experience, athletes who attend tournaments like to compete in about 2-3 events.  A typical tournament might be organized as something like this:

* Age categories:* < 7 years,    < 9 years,    < 11 years,    Cadet 12-14,    Junior 15-17,    Senior 18-30,    Age 31-40,    Age 40+ 
* Gender:* Female,    Male 
* Rank:* Yellow,    Green,    Blue,    Red,    Black 
* Events:* Sparring,    World Class Sparring,    Poomsae,    World Class Poomsae,    Pairs Poomsae,    Team Poomsae,    Breaking 
* Sparring weight categories:* <45 kg,    < 51 kg,    < 59Kg,    < 68kg,    < 73 kg,    over 

In a tournament like this, you'll probably see some divisions with as many as 10 athletes in the division. You'll see other divisions with as few as 2-3 athletes in the division. 

So yup...they'll award 1st, 2nd, 3rd regardless of how many people are in the division. For example, if you're an older adult and you're the only person in your division for that event, they'll often ask if you'd like to compete in an adjacent division just so that you can have some competition. If you decline, you'll wind up getting the 1st place trophy for your (empty) division!  Most older adults opt to compete in adjacent divisions though, just so that they'll have a real competition. In my first tournament as an adult in my 50s, I wound up competing poomsae in the 20-something division, and there were still only 3 of us in that division! Of course I felt bad about wiping the floor with those young whipper-snappers...


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## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> How much 'spin' would you consider normal for that kick - is the target in front of you in your start position?



Doesn't really matter. If they're basically in front of you, it's a spinning kick. If they're basically behind you, it wouldn't be. Quibbling over the number of degrees off-dead-center they can be seems pointless.

If you're talking about something static, like board breaking or bag work, then the target is likely to be directly in front of you, resulting in a turn of roughly 180 degrees. 
I'd recommend practicing the kick from other angles as well, where you have to turn more than or less than 180 degrees. Because reality.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> The spinning side kick and turning side kick are the same thing (at least in the several styles of TKD I've studied).  If you're standing with your right foot to the rear, you'd pick up your right foot, turn clockwise (what I'd call turning backwards), and do a side kick with the right foot. It's basically the same as a spinning back kick except you turn further.



I would disagree that's the only difference. The main difference for me is in the knee chamber position. For a back kick, the chamber is underneath the hips, knee pointing to the ground. For a turning side kick, it's chambered at atleast 90° to the standing leg (ideally more), out to the side.  Of course the arm position and the amount of turn in the upper body (shoulders in a line to the target for the turning side kick and back almost completely facing the opponent for a back kick) are important too, but it's the chamber position that is for me the key difference.


----------



## pdg

Dirty Dog said:


> Doesn't really matter. If they're basically in front of you, it's a spinning kick. If they're basically behind you, it wouldn't be. Quibbling over the number of degrees off-dead-center they can be seems pointless.



I didn't say number of degrees off centre...

Although the number of degrees turned (coupled with direction of turn) makes a terminology difference. If that doesn't matter, why bother with naming it at all?


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> I would disagree that's the only difference. The main difference for me is in the knee chamber position. For a back kick, the chamber is underneath the hips, knee pointing to the ground. For a turning side kick, it's chambered at atleast 90° to the standing leg (ideally more), out to the side.  Of course the arm position and the amount of turn in the upper body (shoulders in a line to the target for the turning side kick and back almost completely facing the opponent for a back kick) are important too, but it's the chamber position that is for me the key difference.



I didn't say it was the only difference...
I'd say the chamber is also a  major difference, but if you don't turn far enough, the chamber won't matter. Because you're not going to hit the target anyway. Which is more important? Flip a coin.


----------



## WaterGal

Michele123 said:


> Well, we had the tournament this morning. It was an interesting experience. I’m glad we did it, but I’m not sure it’s the kind of thing we will do often.
> 
> They had us in groups based on age and rank. My 6yo daughter only had one other person to compete against for forms. (The only other white belt her age). She did very poorly (couldn’t remember how to start her form) but I’m not surprised because she has continually refused to practice with me. The other girl did somewhat poorly as well (went the wrong direction and didn’t always do the correct side) but overall was light years ahead of my daughter. Because there were only two kids, my daughter still got a silver medal. I’m glad my daughter is happy, but I think it was silly that she still got a medal. How is she supposed to learn to work hard for things if she still gets a medal for not working hard?



In my experience, which admittedly is only with local tournaments in my region of the country, for kids under 8, they usually make the divisions small enough that everybody gets a medal/trophy. And lower belt students are less likely to go to tournaments, so their divisions tend to be smaller anyway. 

When we're talking about young beginners, I think the idea is to reward them for even having the guts to go try (because so many don't), and to encourage them to come back and try again next time. As she gets older and higher in rank, the number of competitors and level of competition will go up.



> For my pattern, there were four of us competing. So not much competition. There were two of us white belts and there were two orange (which comes right after white in this association). I was nervous at first but I got to do my pattern last so that helped. I chose to do the same pattern as the orange belts did but did a much better job. Both of them got mixed up in at least one part and did the wrong move. Also, neither one had any power or snap to their techniques. The other white belt did the white belt pattern and did a good job for what it was but still no power and snap (though more understandable for her I think). Anyhow, I won first but there wasn’t much competition. It was supposed to be all adult colored belts but the one higher rank they had they moved to compete with the junior black belts because there was such a gap (she was several ranks above orange).  I’m pleased with myself for doing well. I knew I mailed my pattern, but I would feel better about it if there had been more competition.  I’m not a fan of participation awards and this is what that felt like.  The head judge did ask me if I had prior experience in another system. Not sure if that was due to me doing something well or if my stances are still a bit off.  My husband took video so I’ll have to go back and watch it.



That's about what I would've expected, honestly. There usually aren't a lot of adult color belt women at tournaments I've been to. The fact that, at white belt, you had a lot of power in your technique is probably what made them ask. Adult beginners often are kind of awkward and stiff when they're getting started.



> I did very poorly with the board breaks. They had us break two boards back to back (so double the thickness) twice. Both with a spinning side kick. Do one, run to the other side and do another. I got nervous about the double board thing because I hadn’t tried that yet. Then I didn’t like up properly (my instruction told me where to stand last time so I never thought about it). I stood square to the boards and when I turned, well I wasn’t square anymore. We were also told that speed counted so... I didn’t break either double board. Very frustrating. The second double board I missed so badly I scraped up the inside of my foot on the side of the board. There were only three of us adult colored belts competing though (myself and the two orange belts from earlier) so I got a participation award... I mean medal. I actually ended up in second (maybe because my form was better than the other orange belt that didn’t break any?). One of the orange belts broke one set of boards the other didn’t break any.



That seems challenging for a low belt group, honestly. When I've seen breaking at tournaments, they usually just let you do whatever breaks you want, within certain requirements (i.e. don't break things that are't wood, or they might give you a list of pre-approved techniques), and judge based on technical merits and difficulty.



> Sparring was weird. Rather than pair my daughter up with the other white belt girl, she had to spar with two taller boys who were higher ranks than her. Actually, they did all the kids in groups of three and did a round robin thing. So everyone medaled. Again, not impressed though my daughter was glad to get another medal. Third place. I’m more proud that she managed to score two points on one of the boys (the second one she sparred). She really needs to learn how to block.



That's.... odd. Was the other white belt girl much bigger or smaller than her? Usually, they group students by age, weight class, rank and gender, but might move someone around to a different group if that person is much bigger, smaller, etc than the other kids in their group. They don't usually put boys and girls together for sparring, though, I don't recall seeing that before.


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## Michele123

WaterGal said:


> That's.... odd. Was the other white belt girl much bigger or smaller than her? Usually, they group students by age, weight class, rank and gender, but might move someone around to a different group if that person is much bigger, smaller, etc than the other kids in their group. They don't usually put boys and girls together for sparring, though, I don't recall seeing that before.


The other girl was slightly more stocky than my daughter (which isn’t hard. She’s like a skeleton) but otherwise they were the same age and height. They broke all the kids up into groups of three and did round robin so each kid sparred twice and each kid medaled. The only thing I can think of is that they would have had to put one boy with two girls if they kept the girls together and didn’t want to make it too easy on that boy?



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## Dirty Dog

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the issue of participation awards.

It's not at all uncommon for merge groups who were initially separated by age/rank/whatever. A tourney is more fun if you have more matches. The last time I entered a tourney, there was only one other person signed up for my group (geriatric fat man) so I fought in the 30-35 yo black belt class. Even though I had children as old as my opponents, it was a lot more fun. Just enjoy the competition and learn from it. That's what really matters.


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## skribs

WaterGal said:


> In my experience, which admittedly is only with local tournaments in my region of the country, for kids under 8, they usually make the divisions small enough that everybody gets a medal/trophy. And lower belt students are less likely to go to tournaments, so their divisions tend to be smaller anyway.



At the local tournaments I go to, they pretty much try to get everyone a medal.  The problem is, 1 group out of 20 or so will have more than 4 people in it, and the winners are Gold (1st), Silver (2nd), Bronze (Tied 3rd and 3rd).  If there's a 5th and 6th person, then they don't get a medal.  In a lot of cases, one or both bronze winners lose their only fight, just like the 5th and 6th place winners, but they got a first round bye thanks to random assignment.

Personally, I'm against participation trophies and medals.  However, if you're at the point where your tournament has 97% of the participants getting a medal...just give everyone a smegging medal!


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## Michele123

I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps?  Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking. 


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## ravenofthewood

Michele123 said:


> I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps?  Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It depends on the school you train at. My dojang practices breakfalls and shoulder rolls every Tuesday. Our self defense incorporates joint locks even at white belt, and takedowns starting at green stripe (third belt). I hope they are coming soon in the curriculum for you.


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## andyjeffries

Michele123 said:


> I’m enjoying Taekwando and looking forward to testing in a couple weeks. But... I still miss karate. Mostly, I find I miss the joint locks and takedowns. The monthly falling classes were always fun and confidence boosting too. (Actually those helped me in real life a few times falling on the ice). Does Taekwando have any of these things later on perhaps?  Kicking is fun, and I do enjoy it, but I like more than just kicking.



We do joint locks, takedowns, throws, grappling etc as part of Taekwondo. The Kukkiwon announced their official self-defence syllabus on the Master Instructor Course in Korea in 2016 (and it was also taught on the US course in 2017, so it wasn't a flash in the pan) and these are all part of Taekwondo. So hopefully your dojang will do them with you at some point.


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## Michele123

Tonight’s class was a lot of fun. The first half was warm ups and agility exercises. It was really neat. I love learning and working in techniques, but I really like working on the whole person movement as well. I tripped over my own feet during the agility exercises a few times but I could really see the usefulness in them. I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space. Oh, it was kind of neat too because our instructor cranked up some upbeat music while we were doing this and I totally felt like we were in a training montage for a martial arts movie. Haha. (Back in the day, I picked up martial arts the first time with the desire to use it in the movie business). 

After that we worked on our material for testing coming up. I’ll be double testing and I got through my material in just a few minutes with no need for corrections which seemed to surprise not only the black belt that was working with me but also our instructor. I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly?  I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?

Anyhow, I came home feeling pretty good about class. I really liked those agility exercises. 


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space.



So increase the agility requirement by making the 'track' circular, or zigzag, or add random corners/turns...

Or go outside - the world is your dojang 



Michele123 said:


> I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly? I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?



A bit of both, mainly the latter.

For (imo) the majority it's a hobby, it doesn't have the importance in their lives to dedicate extra time to. They'll learn something, go home and life takes over, then next class they have to learn it again.

I'm very into the theoretical side of things, I'll sit and read, watch videos, ask questions. Like my "U shaped block" question - when I asked about it last night I got told "I'm surprised a 4th kup knows there's different terms"...

My superior knowledge doesn't make me a superior person though, it just means I've chosen to make it a higher priority in my life.

There are people who can perform the techniques far better than me, but not be able to name them (in any language).

Then there are people who are 'worse' at the physical application _and_ the theoretical knowledge - but they're trying.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Tonight’s class was a lot of fun. The first half was warm ups and agility exercises. It was really neat. I love learning and working in techniques, but I really like working on the whole person movement as well. I tripped over my own feet during the agility exercises a few times but I could really see the usefulness in them. I want to try to duplicate it during my at home practices but I don’t know if I have a long enough space. Oh, it was kind of neat too because our instructor cranked up some upbeat music while we were doing this and I totally felt like we were in a training montage for a martial arts movie. Haha. (Back in the day, I picked up martial arts the first time with the desire to use it in the movie business).
> 
> After that we worked on our material for testing coming up. I’ll be double testing and I got through my material in just a few minutes with no need for corrections which seemed to surprise not only the black belt that was working with me but also our instructor. I guess it’s uncommon for people to catch on so quickly?  I don’t know if it is my karate background or if it is uncommon for people to practice daily at home?
> 
> Anyhow, I came home feeling pretty good about class. I really liked those agility exercises.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah that sounds like a fun class. I've never done that much agility work before! Did you guys use the agility ladders? I've tried a variation of that (just making a makeshift ladder with my own obstacles hehe) when prepping for a tournament last year, also did plyometrics too which was really interesting, but great fun to work with, and can definitely see the value!


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## Michele123

Last class was great. My instructor had me run through all my material and then had me woke on my breaks for my test on a rebreakable board. It’s definitely more challenging when I have to figure out where to stand on my own. I think I’ve figured it out for both of them though. I still have a week and a half until testing. My daughter’s test is in just a week though. She’s going for her first stripe on her white belt which is 1/3 of the material for a full belt.   I’m not sure she’s going to pass because she refuses to practice when I’m around but maybe. 


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## Michele123

Testing is over. 

My 6yo DD had a freak out on test day. It turns out when I’d been continually suggesting she practice because I was worried about her form, it really messed with her self-confidence. At test time she couldn’t do anything but run away crying. I had also try d to encourage her by promising to buy one of those belt racks for her if she passed her test on the first try. Note to self: things I see as motivating, DD sees as pressure. 

Anyhow, she was allowed to try again at her next lesson and she actually did really well. Between her test date and the date she actually tested I made sure to back off and not ask her to practice or talk about her form or anything. I don’t usually get to watch her during her lessons and didn’t realize how much she knew. I was presently surprised and very proud of her. Especially that she was willing to try to test again so soon after her freak out. She earned a stripe which means she knows 1/3 of the material towards 8th gup (sp?) 

My instructor had me double test. I didn’t know exactly what to expect as my frame of reference is the karate I took as a teenager. There were never double testings (but tests were available every month the first class of the month so there was no need to hold back a student who was progressing just because it wasn’t testing time yet).  

In my old style, there was the possibility of a double promotion. In the form of karate I studied, while there were forms (kata) and techniques learned at every rank, more weight was placed on the level you executed your techniques. For example, 

white belts testing for 7th kyu were only expected to do the techniques correctly. There should be no speed or power to them. 
7th testing for 6th was starting to add some speed. 
6th testing for 5th added “hip motion.”  
And so on. 

In the 7 years or so that I trained, there were only 2 instances of a double promotion. For myself, when I tested for 6th kyu, I had naturally picked up “hip motion” from watching the higher ranks and was double promoted to 5th kyu instead. There was another gentleman that was double promoted from 4th - 2nd kyu if memory serves. That was it though. 

So, to double test, I assumed it would be a test that combined the material for both belts. Nope. Instead, I tested for 8th gup, with all the ceremony and rigor, was awarded the rank, changed into that belt, and immediately began to test again for 7th gup. Even the items that were also a part of the 8th gup test I had to do again for the 7th gup test, even though the tests were mere minutes apart. Not the most efficient use of time but I get it. 

Anyhow, the test went well. Other than being exhausted from going through everything so quickly, the test went well. I nailed both tests’ board breaks on the first try. That was really the only thing I wasn’t certain about because I didn’t know how to incorporate practicing that at home and because I failed that at the tournament. 

One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank.  It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach. 

Anyhow, I’m falling asleep so I guess this is all for tonight. 


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank.  It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach.



Congrats to both of you.
Allow me to assure you that in my experience, testing is, in fact, cumulative in most TKD schools. Certainly it is in ours. 
While black belts are human and may have a brain fart on some material at any time, if they actually don't know the material, then they should (in my opinion) take off the belt.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Testing is over.
> 
> My 6yo DD had a freak out on test day. It turns out when I’d been continually suggesting she practice because I was worried about her form, it really messed with her self-confidence. At test time she couldn’t do anything but run away crying. I had also try d to encourage her by promising to buy one of those belt racks for her if she passed her test on the first try. Note to self: things I see as motivating, DD sees as pressure.
> 
> Anyhow, she was allowed to try again at her next lesson and she actually did really well. Between her test date and the date she actually tested I made sure to back off and not ask her to practice or talk about her form or anything. I don’t usually get to watch her during her lessons and didn’t realize how much she knew. I was presently surprised and very proud of her. Especially that she was willing to try to test again so soon after her freak out. She earned a stripe which means she knows 1/3 of the material towards 8th gup (sp?)
> 
> My instructor had me double test. I didn’t know exactly what to expect as my frame of reference is the karate I took as a teenager. There were never double testings (but tests were available every month the first class of the month so there was no need to hold back a student who was progressing just because it wasn’t testing time yet).
> 
> In my old style, there was the possibility of a double promotion. In the form of karate I studied, while there were forms (kata) and techniques learned at every rank, more weight was placed on the level you executed your techniques. For example,
> 
> white belts testing for 7th kyu were only expected to do the techniques correctly. There should be no speed or power to them.
> 7th testing for 6th was starting to add some speed.
> 6th testing for 5th added “hip motion.”
> And so on.
> 
> In the 7 years or so that I trained, there were only 2 instances of a double promotion. For myself, when I tested for 6th kyu, I had naturally picked up “hip motion” from watching the higher ranks and was double promoted to 5th kyu instead. There was another gentleman that was double promoted from 4th - 2nd kyu if memory serves. That was it though.
> 
> So, to double test, I assumed it would be a test that combined the material for both belts. Nope. Instead, I tested for 8th gup, with all the ceremony and rigor, was awarded the rank, changed into that belt, and immediately began to test again for 7th gup. Even the items that were also a part of the 8th gup test I had to do again for the 7th gup test, even though the tests were mere minutes apart. Not the most efficient use of time but I get it.
> 
> Anyhow, the test went well. Other than being exhausted from going through everything so quickly, the test went well. I nailed both tests’ board breaks on the first try. That was really the only thing I wasn’t certain about because I didn’t know how to incorporate practicing that at home and because I failed that at the tournament.
> 
> One thing that is interesting to me is that testing is not cumulative. In karate, each test involved *everything* from the previous test plus new stuff. Apparently in Taekwando that’s different. You only get tested on the new stuff you’ve learned since your last rank.  It’s strange to me but it certainly explains why there are so many black belts that don’t remember certain things when he’s asking for them to help teach.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m falling asleep so I guess this is all for tonight.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Congratulations on your grading guys! And yeah that's awesome for your daughter to come back and do her grading, shows a lot of courage. I hope she's not discouraged, and yeah that's cool that you learned that about yourself and also put yourself in her shoes.

And we'll done on double grading Michele, fantastic!! Yeah every style has different standards and requirements for if someone was to double grade, but obviously they saw that potential and skill level in you already or else it wouldn't have been offered. I double graded in karate many years ago, but I don't think they allowed mid-higher level grades (from 7th/6th kyu and up) to double grade.

You can relax now and enjoy that you've made a big step on your journey


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## Kinghercules

Michele123 said:


> Hello,
> I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether.
> 
> Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I know its been a min since Ive been in here but....Im back! 
Ive read a few post in this form but not all and Im sure all have already said why and how TKD is connected to karate. But this one caught my attention because of the SHUDOKAN. My instructor, Ki Whang Kim, trained under Toyama Kanken. So eventho his school said TKD we trained like the Japanese.

So just as many others have already have mentioned its all about who you trained under. About 90% of TKD schools in my area (Washington DC) are Kukkiwon based and thats because of the push in the late 70's to be more of a Olympic sport. But before the Kukkiwon (1973) TKD was purely street fighting. So its hard to find schools now a days that still have that early style training. Eventho my instructor trained under Toyama Kanken our style isnt Shudokan. Its Tang Soo Do. People always ask why are we doing Japanese forms if our style is Korean. Buts NOT a Japanese form. Its Korean.

What pisses me off is how people dont understand the meaning of the word "evolve". The Kukkiwon stylist (World TKD Federation) and the ITF (Gen Choi's TKD) did move away form the Japanese style of training and created their own system of forms. While some traditionalist like Ki Whang Kim, Won Kuk Lee, Chun Sang Sup, & Lee Kyo Yoon stayed with the Japanese forms because they didnt like the new ones. In fact Gen Choi came to the USA to show Ki Whang Kim his new forms and have him teach them but Ki Whang told Gen Choi straight up no, that his forms were useless and made no sense. So for us Ki Whang Kim stuck with what he learned from Toyama and made adjustments based on his PHILOSOPHICAL approach to fighting. Which is what he was suppose to do and where other (I believe) Korean masters failed at doing. This is where I do respect Gen Choi's contribution to the Korean arts because he came up with a complete different set of forms. Where as you see in most Tang Soo Do schools their approach to forms and how they do their forms is the EXACTLY the same as Shotokan. There's another discussion somewhere on here where they are talking about Jion and the Shotokan person said that they do that form at brown belt and they dont understand why the Koreans are doing it at 5th or 4th Dan. Thats because the APPROACH and REASON of why we do the form IS NOT and SHOULD NOT be the same reason the Japanese do the form!! Because if it is then you might as well say that your are doing Shotokan and not TSD. They way we doing our forms and our approach to doing forms is completely different than any other Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo school that Ive seen.

So for us (students of Ki Whang Kim) our understanding of forms is different. For the simple fact that Ki Whang had trained under Toyama Kanken and he had trained in China when he was stationed there, he developed his own approach to doing forms. Our lineage is a direct line to Toyama. So we train karate but we fight non-Olympic TKD.


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## Earl Weiss

Kinghercules said:


> I..........................stayed with the Japanese forms because they didnt like the new ones.
> [
> I


stuck with what he learned

[/QUOTE]

IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with.  Therein was part of the Geniuss of  KKW TKD . accepting all systems and taking the long view of gradually switching to a single system whereas General Choi required all to learn a single system from the early days. (Yes, I am aware there were a very few exceptions)


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## Kinghercules

Earl Weiss said:


> stuck with what he learned



IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with.  Therein was part of the Geniuss of  KKW TKD . accepting all systems and taking the long view of gradually switching to a single system whereas General Choi required all to learn a single system from the early days. (Yes, I am aware there were a very few exceptions)[/QUOTE]

Ok that nice in your opinion but Im tell you what happen. Ki Whang had Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks and a few other students learn all of Gen Choi forms. This is what Albert Cheeks told me directly, that after a week of training in them KWK decided not to teach them because they didnt make sense. They all went out to dinner; Ki Whang Kim, Gen Choi, Henry Cho, Tiger Kim, Duk Sang Song and a few other high ranking Koreans and thats where KWK told Gen Choi he did like his forms and wasnt gonna teach them.


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## TrueJim

Earl Weiss said:


> Therein was part of the Geniuss of  KKW TKD...



I think another bit of the Kukkiwon cleverness was initially keeping the core curriculum to a bare minimum: "here's a comparatively small set of forms, and a comparatively small set of techniques...and as far as we're concerned that's the extent of what taekwondo is -- add whatever else you want in your school, teach it however you want, we only care about the minimal core".  The down-side of that approach is that you get some uneven quality: some schools teaching just the minimal core, while other schools add a whole bunch of great stuff. The up-side is that it's an easy pill to swallow for school owners, so you get widespread adoption.


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## Earl Weiss

Kinghercules said:


> IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with.  )



Ok that nice in your opinion but Im tell you what happen. Ki Whang had Mike Warren, Albert Cheeks and a few other students learn all of Gen Choi forms. This is what Albert Cheeks told me directly, that after a week of training in them KWK decided not to teach them because they didnt make sense. They all went out to dinner; Ki Whang Kim, Gen Choi, Henry Cho, Tiger Kim, Duk Sang Song and a few other high ranking Koreans and thats where KWK told Gen Choi he did like his forms and wasnt gonna teach them.[/QUOTE]

OK, so in your opinion, (forget for the moment what form set we are talking about)    7 days of training (almost 1000 moves) is enough time to learn and make an in depth analysis of 24 forms  (or perhaps at that time there were still only 20.)

Also, do you disagree that often there is a dislike and resistance to change?


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## Jaeimseu

Earl Weiss said:


> stuck with what he learned



IMO for those who chose to stay with what they knew it was more about sticking with what they learned - not having to learn new stuff as opposed to "Not Liking" something they would only have passing familiarity with.  Therein was part of the Geniuss of  KKW TKD . accepting all systems and taking the long view of gradually switching to a single system whereas General Choi required all to learn a single system from the early days. (Yes, I am aware there were a very few exceptions)[/QUOTE]

I’m guessing it’s a combination of not wanting to learn new stuff at the expense of the old stuff along with the inclination to think that the way you learned something originally is the best or “right” way. 

During the decade I lived and taught in Korea, several times we had visitors from North America who did non-standard Kukkiwon poomsae. I was amused (and a little frustrated, tbh) on a few occasions when the visitor would ask why we did a poomsae “wrong.” There we were, less than 10 miles from Kukkiwon, 25-30 people doing poomsae the same way, and the visitor takes this in and comes to the conclusion that he is doing it “correctly.” 


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## Earl Weiss

Jaeimseu said:


> I
> nation of not wanting to learn new stuff at the expense of the old stuff along with the inclination to think that the way you learned something originally is the best or “right” way.
> During the decade I lived and taught in Korea, several times we had visitors from North America who did non-standard Kukkiwon poomsae. I was amused (and a little frustrated, tbh) on a few occasions when the visitor would ask why we did a poomsae “wrong.” There we were, less than 10 miles from Kukkiwon, 25-30 people doing poomsae the same way, and the visitor takes this in and comes to the conclusion that he is doing it “correctly.”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I experienced the same thing in 1990 attending my first IIC with General Choi. I had been training  for 18 years with some of the highest ranks in the world.  When he did something different that what I had learned my a silent but loud voice in my head said "that's wrong."   Of course that could not be correct and referring to the texts I saw how I had learned stuff wrong,  90% of the time the text clearly showed it. The other 10% you could see how stuff got changed as it passed from person t person and was also misunderstood. 
When I got back to the club I was teaching with many Black Belts who had been training 10 years plus and a list of 150 things to fix people were not happy that they hd to fix stuff.  I thought they would be happy to learn what the rest f the world was doing.   So, I learned an important lesson. Make changes gradually . Kind of sneak in a cooule a week.


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## Michele123

So my daughter and I will be competing in another tournament in a couple weeks. I’m a bit more nervous about this one because of my new rank. Rather than being a white belt who has learned the material for the next two ranks, I’m new to this rank and don’t know much of the material. I haven’t been able to get to a class since my test because classes have been canceled due to snowstorms!

Anyhow, I didn’t get to spar last time because I had to come home to put the baby down for a nap. This tournament is closer so I’m hoping I actually get to spar but... we don’t spar during normal classes at my gym. There was a sparing seminar I attended a couple months back and that was it. Taekwondo has very restrictive sparing rules. Most punching and doesn’t score and no other striking techniques score. When I was in karate that’s what I did primarily. Now I have to figure out how to just kick a ton while bouncing around. I’m not sure how I’ll do but I’m probably going to be embarrassed. If it were anything goes, I know I could hold my own but kicking only is tough. 

My daughter has actually wanted to practice her form with me a few times so that’s good. I hope she is able to do better at the tournament than last time. (Not medal-wise, just execution of the form and confidence)


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> So my daughter and I will be competing in another tournament in a couple weeks. I’m a bit more nervous about this one because of my new rank. Rather than being a white belt who has learned the material for the next two ranks, I’m new to this rank and don’t know much of the material. I haven’t been able to get to a class since my test because classes have been canceled due to snowstorms!
> 
> Anyhow, I didn’t get to spar last time because I had to come home to put the baby down for a nap. This tournament is closer so I’m hoping I actually get to spar but... we don’t spar during normal classes at my gym. There was a sparing seminar I attended a couple months back and that was it. Taekwondo has very restrictive sparing rules. Most punching and doesn’t score and no other striking techniques score. When I was in karate that’s what I did primarily. Now I have to figure out how to just kick a ton while bouncing around. I’m not sure how I’ll do but I’m probably going to be embarrassed. If it were anything goes, I know I could hold my own but kicking only is tough.
> 
> My daughter has actually wanted to practice her form with me a few times so that’s good. I hope she is able to do better at the tournament than last time. (Not medal-wise, just execution of the form and confidence)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah nice, yeah I reckon just don't take the tournament as seriously maybe, have a bit of fun with it and enjoy it, and see what you can learn from it. Whenever any tendency comes up within yourself of how you'll look or whether you'll look embarssing on the day, it's worth letting it come up and just really questioning it, asking "Is that really true?" And even following that line of thought of looking embarrassing to it's absolute end: "What would happen if I looked embarrassing? What would people think of me? What would happen if they thought that? How long would they think it for? Would it still matter 10 minutes from now? 30? A day? Month? 5 years?"

It just helps to really put it in perspective and see that not everyone is going to look at everyone without judgement, and moreso that judgement isn't real, and doesn't last very long anyway, and has no effect if you question the belief in it.

If you go into it with a fresh mind, and an intention to just be relaxed about it, have fun with it, enjoy the experience and learn from it, it's so much more rewarding and freeing from the burdens of what others think. You're there for your own reasons, and as awkward as it might be as a new rank, if you take it lightly and as a cool new experience, I'm sure all those nerves will wash away when you're there having fun.

I'm also competing in a few weeks on short notice, haven't really prepared much, have only done one sparring round with someone last night and there probably won't be another opportunity to, but I'm really relaxed about this one and just gonna really focus on just enjoying the experience of being part of an event like this. It's a surreal feeling when you're out there on the mats and in that atmosphere!

Ah I thought TKD tournaments did score for punching but that kicking tends to score more, ah there ya go!

And great that you're daughter is keen on practicing too


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## Michele123

Thank you Simon for your thoughtful comments. I’m a perfectionist and it’s my own standards. I don’t think other people will remember much how I perform after they go home. But I will. I like to be the best at everything, or at least better than one would normally expect of someone at my rank/time studying/whatever. Perhaps I need to look at that. But it is what drives me to excel and I like to excel so... *shrug*



_Simon_ said:


> Ah I thought TKD tournaments did score for punching but that kicking tends to score more, ah there ya go!



Oh. Yeah punching can occasionally score. But it is very specific. The punch has to be to the torso front or sides and the punch must be coming from over your back leg. No other strikes can score. (Elbows, knees, palms, non of that)

When I studied karate, there were no such restrictions. We didn’t point spare, we were self-defense focused. No restriction on targets or techniques. If it worked, use it. I liked to get in close so my opponent couldn’t kick or swing well and pummel them with elbows and knees. That would never fly in TKD. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Thank you Simon for your thoughtful comments. I’m a perfectionist and it’s my own standards. I don’t think other people will remember much how I perform after they go home. But I will. I like to be the best at everything, or at least better than one would normally expect of someone at my rank/time studying/whatever. Perhaps I need to look at that. But it is what drives me to excel and I like to excel so... *shrug*
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Yeah punching can occasionally score. But it is very specific. The punch has to be to the torso front or sides and the punch must be coming from over your back leg. No other strikes can score. (Elbows, knees, palms, non of that)
> 
> When I studied karate, there were no such restrictions. We didn’t point spare, we were self-defense focused. No restriction on targets or techniques. If it worked, use it. I liked to get in close so my opponent couldn’t kick or swing well and pummel them with elbows and knees. That would never fly in TKD.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ahh yep, yeah I have perfectionist tendencies as well. That's true that it can be helpful and fosters attention to detail and wanting to do your best and with integrity, it's only an issue when it creates dysfunction within your life. Which it absolutely has for me, and has really been far more harmful than good. But yeah seeing how it operates in your life and if it's brings about alot of anxiety at things not being perfect, then it becomes an issue.

My technique is really spot on from what others have told me, but I can be too critical when it's off and also far far too tense in my movements, wanting it to be peeeeerfect. So in my case it's good and bad, and I'm trying to be aware of where it serves me and benefits me, and where it's destructive. Where it's just completely unneccesary (putting far too much pressure on myself, pushing myself too hard etc), and where it can help (developing skills, knowledge, confidence etc). But anyways I won't push anything haha it's up to you how far you wanna delve into that .

Ah yep makes sense, it's tricky to spar under different conditions like that, but keen to see how you go! It'll go really help develop your kicks hey


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## pdg

_Simon_ said:


> I thought TKD tournaments did score for punching but that kicking tends to score more, ah there ya go!





Michele123 said:


> punching can occasionally score. But it is very specific. The punch has to be to the torso front or sides and the punch must be coming from over your back leg.



That depends on your ruleset...

We spar for points, but it's continuous (no break after scoring, just see who got most at the end of the round).

We also score head punches (less points than kicks) using either hand, and things like backfists (not spinning, must clearly sight target). Sometimes, hooking punches are allowed, sometimes not, depends who is running the comp.


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## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> Ah I thought TKD tournaments did score for punching but that kicking tends to score more, ah there ya go!



There are rulesets and there are rulesets...
Under Olympic sparring rules, a narrow range of punches to the torso can theoretically score. They're worth one point, same as a kick. Kicks to the head and spinning/jumping kicks are worth 2 or 3 points respectively.
That's the theory. In practice, it's fairly uncommon to see punches scoring under Olympic rules.
On the other hand, we score punches exactly the same as kicks, and with the same targets. As a result, our sparring looks very little like sparring done under Olympic rules. You will regret sparring with your hands down, for one thing.


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> Thank you Simon for your thoughtful comments. I’m a perfectionist and it’s my own standards. I don’t think other people will remember much how I perform after they go home. But I will. I like to be the best at everything, or at least better than one would normally expect of someone at my rank/time studying/whatever. Perhaps I need to look at that. But it is what drives me to excel and I like to excel so... *shrug*
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Yeah punching can occasionally score. But it is very specific. The punch has to be to the torso front or sides and the punch must be coming from over your back leg. No other strikes can score. (Elbows, knees, palms, non of that)
> 
> When I studied karate, there were no such restrictions. We didn’t point spare, we were self-defense focused. No restriction on targets or techniques. If it worked, use it. I liked to get in close so my opponent couldn’t kick or swing well and pummel them with elbows and knees. That would never fly in TKD.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The great thing about MA competition is it has a better equalizer than practically every other physical competition - ranks.  Unless you’re competing in an open division somehow, everyone you’ll be competing against will more or less be in the same boat.  Early kyu/gup ranks last what, 3 months or so?  So I’m willing to bet there’ll be several people who’ve just promoted too, and have about the same amount of sparring experience as you.

Go in and fun fun with it.  Don’t take it nor yourself too seriously.  Easier said than done though.

2 years ago, I competed for the first time in almost 20 years.  I took a 15 year break from karate, and had been back for about about 16 months.  It was our organization’s 40th anniversary tournament, and honestly only did it because my daughters (5 and 3 at the time) wanted to see me compete.  Like you, I couldn’t just walk in and not care about how I did; I trained really hard for it.  A lot of kept me motivated and focused was feeling that I couldn’t control how good or bad the competition would be; all I could do was try to outdo myself.  If I did far better than I thought I could do, I’d be happy regardless of where I placed.  I wasn’t competing against anyone but myself.

If you go in with that mentality, you should do fine.  Do better than you thought you could do, and the scoreboard and everyone else’s opinions don’t matter.

I’ve always been a bit too competitive.  At nearing 42, I’m just a bit too competitive with myself.  It pretty much always works out well in the end.  And if it doesn’t go exactly how I wanted, I still live to fight another day.  And can improve.


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## Michele123

Dirty Dog said:


> There are rulesets and there are rulesets...
> Under Olympic sparring rules, a narrow range of punches to the torso can theoretically score. They're worth one point, same as a kick. Kicks to the head and spinning/jumping kicks are worth 2 or 3 points respectively.
> That's the theory. In practice, it's fairly uncommon to see punches scoring under Olympic rules.
> On the other hand, we score punches exactly the same as kicks, and with the same targets. As a result, our sparring looks very little like sparring done under Olympic rules. You will regret sparring with your hands down, for one thing.



Yes. Our competitions use modified Olympic rules. Basically Olympic rules except no face strikes. 


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## Kinghercules

[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing it’s a combination of not wanting to learn new stuff at the expense of the old stuff along with the inclination to think that the way you learned something originally is the best or “right” way.

During the decade I lived and taught in Korea, several times we had visitors from North America who did non-standard Kukkiwon poomsae. I was amused (and a little frustrated, tbh) on a few occasions when the visitor would ask why we did a poomsae “wrong.” There we were, less than 10 miles from Kukkiwon, 25-30 people doing poomsae the same way, and the visitor takes this in and comes to the conclusion that he is doing it “correctly.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing...the KKW dont run the world.
I find it funny that many TKD people dont know that TKD existed before the KKW did and yall act like the KKW is the REAL DEAL. When its not. Its just the biggest association of TKD practitioners.

You have to keep in mind that many schools in the USA taught TKD before 1973. Ive even seen some people put on their websites saying that if a person doesnt have a black belt from the KKW then they are fake black belts.   Im like really!! What about all those Koreans that were black belts before the KKW was created and came to the USA to teach? There are different styles/schools of TKD just as there are different schools of karate. The KKW is more sport orientated whereas most of the old school TKD schools in the USA were more street orientated. The forms for the KKW were created to move away from the Japanese influence on Korean martial arts. So there are many TKD schools in the USA that still do the Japanese forms and some even do both. Another thing that people dont realize is that many Americans learned from Korean masters that out ranked those who formed the KKW. So of course they gonna think that that you're wrong when there instructor was more than likely a black belt when the founders of the KKW were still Gups.


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## Michele123

I’m struggling with a few things right now. First, we have a tournament coming up this weekend and I’ve only been just taught my form a week ago. 

Second, $$$$ Taekwando is soooo expensive!  In my old style, my Sensei taught because he loved it and it was his passion to help others. Tuition was just a suggested donation thing to help pay for the building we met in ($3/week was asked) and testing fees were $20 total for the belt, certificate, and association fee. In the Taekwando I study there is a high monthly tuition fee, double the testing fee, then at Black belt it tripled and more for each Dan test. On top of that there are tournaments that you are highly encouraged to attend. Plus, at black belt level there are extra black belt classes that, I assume, must also have an extra fee. I have spent more on Taekwando in six months, than I did on karate for six years!

Third, and I don’t know if this is because of my prior experience, but Taekwando material is so *easy* and there is so *little* material between ranks. When I was in karate, I worked hard. I went to two 2 1/2 classes each week and practiced up to two hours a day (plus occasionally getting together with other students outside of class). I progressed faster than your average student then as well, but not this fast. When I studied karate, we also had a lot of falling classes (monthly at a minimum) grappling (judo and jujitsu folks came in for that), and of course a variety of strikes in addition to kicks. *every* class began with us, in rows by rank, going through our 12 basic techniques to refine them. 

Right now I’m feeling like Taekwando is martial arts “lite” with a premium price tag. 

Yet, I love martial arts and the only other option in town is a McDojo that teaches “Americanized Taekwando” that they call karate. 

Is it normal to feel like your previous style is superior to your new style?


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## TrueJim

I think what you're experiencing will vary a LOT from school to school. At the school I attend, I do think the monthly fees are a bit high, but the color-belt testing fees are actually quite low! I think if you shopped around, you'd find local schools that have a very different fee structure from what you're seeing...it can vary a lot.

When I first studied taekwondo in a college club, the curriculum was very linear: you didn't start practicing Y until you've mastered X. At the school I'm at now, they first introduce you to X, but while you're still getting a handle on that, they also introduce you to Y. My initial reaction was to feel suspect that this was actually a good approach, but now that I've lived with that approach for a few years, I see the virtue in it.

Bottom line: I think your observations are valid, but really valid only for the school you're at now. I think if you looked around, you'd see that the experience can vary quite a lot from school to school.


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## pdg

In any competition we do, we're only expected to compete with the pattern we've already graded with, not a 'new' one. It seems a bit off to me to expect you to be at competition standard with something you've not practiced much...

How long have you been doing TKD and how many tests have you had? You mentioned 6 months and in that time I'd just done 2 gradings, and that was minimum time in grade.

I've been doing it 2 years now, and I'm 3rd kup - and that's also with every grading at minimum elapsed time...

I'll let you convert the currency yourself, but I pay just under £70 per month for up to 9 hours per week (that's for me and both my kids too).

Each grading is about £30 (all inclusive), minimum of every 3 months from 9th - 4th kup, then 6 months min 3rd to 1st kup. 1st dan is about £100 (I think), but that's done elsewhere and you have to have been 1st kup for a minimum of 12 months.

We don't have any in between grade mini tests or extra belt stripes or anything either...

Our classes seem much like you describe your old ones - we all line up in rank and do fundamental techniques at the start, a bit of pattern work, then move on to other stuff (different techniques, sparring, etc.)

I'm not in the least saying all the schools around here are like that (I know of another near where everything is over double the price and I've heard nothing good about the quality), but it does illustrate a bit of a difference.


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## Michele123

Thank you for your comments. 



TrueJim said:


> I think what you're experiencing will vary a LOT from school to school. At the school I attend, I do think the monthly fees are a bit high, but the color-belt testing fees are actually quite low! I think if you shopped around, you'd find local schools that have a very different fee structure from what you're seeing...it can vary a lot.



Can I ask what testing fees are?  Here they are $40/Test. My old school was $20. I’ve heard that the Dan tests are multiple hundred dollars, each one being a huge jump from the previous. I don’t know if it makes a difference, but the Taekwando school I currently attend is a KKW school. 



TrueJim said:


> When I first studied taekwondo in a college club, the curriculum was very linear: you didn't start practicing Y until you've mastered X. At the school I'm at now, they first introduce you to X, but while you're still getting a handle on that, they also introduce you to Y. My initial reaction was to feel suspect that this was actually a good approach, but now that I've lived with that approach for a few years, I see the virtue in it.


Yes. That’s how my current school does it. It’s just that there seems to be very few material between grades. A form and a couple sets of drills (each drill has 5-12 sets in it). My karate school had much more material between grades. 



TrueJim said:


> Bottom line: I think your observations are valid, but really valid only for the school you're at now. I think if you looked around, you'd see that the experience can vary quite a lot from school to school.


I’m sure you are right. It’s probably a case of simply being uncomfortable with the different. 





pdg said:


> In any competition we do, we're only expected to compete with the pattern we've already graded with, not a 'new' one. It seems a bit off to me to expect you to be at competition standard with something you've not practiced much...


My instructor asked if I was comfortable with it. I said I was and it was left at that. I am comfortable with it. But other than the night I was taught it, no one has watched me do it and I prefer to have more feedback. I know I have the techniques right, but what about the little things?  I’m not entirely certain of timing (which techniques and movements should be quick verses slow, or does this not exist in Taekwando?). At the last tournament, everyone did the form they were working on for their next rank. So that’s the norm here. 



pdg said:


> How long have you been doing TKD and how many tests have you had? You mentioned 6 months and in that time I'd just done 2 gradings, and that was minimum time in grade.
> 
> I've been doing it 2 years now, and I'm 3rd kup - and that's also with every grading at minimum elapsed time...


I started the end of October, so not quite 6 months. I’ve had three tests so far but the last two were the same night (double test). The first was a test for white belt as here the first rank is no belt. So 7th kup for me. 



pdg said:


> I'll let you convert the currency yourself, but I pay just under £70 per month for up to 9 hours per week (that's for me and both my kids too).


 that’s basically what it is here for me and my daughter. Two hours for me plus one for her per week. As she gets older the tuition won’t change but she will have more time. 



pdg said:


> Each grading is about £30 (all inclusive), minimum of every 3 months from 9th - 4th kup, then 6 months min 3rd to 1st kup. 1st dan is about £100 (I think), but that's done elsewhere and you have to have been 1st kup for a minimum of 12 months.


The kup grading is nearly the same as ours. I don’t remember the exact cost of the Dan grading, just dropping my jaw when I heard it. I’m fairly certain it was much more than yours. 



pdg said:


> We don't have any in between grade mini tests or extra belt stripes or anything either...


We don’t either except for the really little kids. 



pdg said:


> Our classes seem much like you describe your old ones - we all line up in rank and do fundamental techniques at the start, a bit of pattern work, then move on to other stuff (different techniques, sparring, etc.)


In my current school, we only line up to bow in (and, in the opposite order my old school did. It messes with my head. My old school had the highest rank on the student’s right. This school it is on the student’s left. It doesn’t matter but it seemed weird to me at first)



pdg said:


> I'm not in the least saying all the schools around here are like that (I know of another near where everything is over double the price and I've heard nothing good about the quality), but it does illustrate a bit of a difference.


The other school near me is a McDojo. You pay $3,000 upfront tuition and don’t pay tuition again until you get to 4th kyu (testing fees and tournaments are mandatory and extra). Then another fee until 1st Dan. So in this context my current school is fine. It just feels so expensive after my old school. Add to that sparring equipment can only be used if purchased through the school, sometimes it feels like being nickel and dimed to death. 

The thing that startled me the most is that all the first dans that earned their rank last June are preparing to test for second Dan this June. In my old karate school, there were YEARS between Dan testing. In addition my old school’s dans had much crisper techniques than this school does. I just can’t see all of them being up for promotion. 

I had earned first Dan at my old karate school. I know what it took. Even then I felt like there was so much I should be better at before wearing the belt. Here I feel like my techniques are crisper than most of the 1st Dans. They know more techniques in this style, sure, but how they do them looks like it leaves a lot to be desired IMHO. But maybe that’s part of the problem when comparing styles.  Maybe I’ve just gotten a big head in the last 20 years. *shrug*

I don’t really have any other options nearby so I’ll continue to train because this is better than the other options (McDojo or nothing).  I do like the school, the instructor, and the other students at this school. Still, I hope to get back into something related to shotokan again someday (my old style was an offshoot called Shutokan).


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> that’s basically what it is here for me and my daughter. Two hours for me plus one for her per week. As she gets older the tuition won’t change but she will have more time



The 9 hours is what's available to me (that's all the school is open for), any time the kids do is in addition to that.


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## WaterGal

Michele123 said:


> I’m struggling with a few things right now. First, we have a tournament coming up this weekend and I’ve only been just taught my form a week ago.



When we have color belt students in this position, we tell them to compete using their previous form, the one they just tested on recently and are very confident with. There's enough disparity between schools with what belt colors are used and when they start the Taegeuk forms at that it shouldn't be a problem. Now, if you're a red belt and want to put on a yellow belt and compete with Taegeuk 1, that's not right, but if you're just learning Taegeuk 2 and want to compete with Taegeuk 1 that should be fine.



> Second, $$$$ Taekwando is soooo expensive!  In my old style, my Sensei taught because he loved it and it was his passion to help others. Tuition was just a suggested donation thing to help pay for the building we met in ($3/week was asked) and testing fees were $20 total for the belt, certificate, and association fee. In the Taekwando I study there is a high monthly tuition fee, double the testing fee, then at Black belt it tripled and more for each Dan test. On top of that there are tournaments that you are highly encouraged to attend. Plus, at black belt level there are extra black belt classes that, I assume, must also have an extra fee. I have spent more on Taekwando in six months, than I did on karate for six years!



Some of this is isn't about the style of martial arts, it's just the difference between a commercial school and a club. A commerical school often has very high expenses. We pay thousands of dollars a month in rent, thousands in payroll, hundreds in advertising, utilities, payment processing fees, cleaning supplies.... it all adds up. Someone teaching a couple hours a week at the rec center has very little overhead, so if they're just teaching for fun, they don't need to charge much at all.

As an aside, the black belt classes might not cost extra. I know we don't charge any extra for ours. They're where you learn the black belt curriculum, they're what you're paying for with your tuition payments once you get to black belt. But I can't speak for every school everywhere.



> Third, and I don’t know if this is because of my prior experience, but Taekwando material is so *easy* and there is so *little* material between ranks. When I was in karate, I worked hard. I went to two 2 1/2 classes each week and practiced up to two hours a day (plus occasionally getting together with other students outside of class). I progressed faster than your average student then as well, but not this fast. When I studied karate, we also had a lot of falling classes (monthly at a minimum) grappling (judo and jujitsu folks came in for that), and of course a variety of strikes in addition to kicks. *every* class began with us, in rows by rank, going through our 12 basic techniques to refine them.



Some of that may be because of your prior experience. Some of that is probably the school. Some of that is probably the style - KKW TKD tends to view black belt as, like, "you've got a good handle on the fundamentals", while many other arts view it as a very high rank. So KKW TKD schools often move through the color belt ranks more quickly than some other styles do, to try to get you to black belt where you do the "good stuff".


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## TrueJim

Michele123 said:


> Can I ask what testing fees are?  Here they are $40/Test. My old school was $20.



We are also a Kukkiwon/WT school. We're at $25, I believe. (It's been a while since I had to do a color-belt test.)



Michele123 said:


> I’ve heard that the Dan tests are multiple hundred dollars.



That's not atypical. At our school, the dan test is several hundred dollars, and if you fail: (a) there's no refund, and (b) you're not allowed to test again for another year. One reason we do it this way is to prevent parents from pushing to have their children tested before the children are ready.

But also, dan tests at our school are done by a committee of relatively high-ranking masters from schools other than our own (to enforce quality), and we pay for their travel and lodging if necessary.

At our school, the cost goes up by $100 at each dan level. I don't know what the rationale for that is.



Michele123 said:


> there seems to be very few material between grades



I'd say there's not a lot of material between our grades either. One poomsae, one kicking combination, one breaking technique, and some test questions (like technique names). So then the test consists of those three things, plus sparring, plus review of basic techniques. So there's only 6 sections to our color-belt tests: basic techniques, poomsae, kicking combination, breaking technique, test questions, sparring (not in that order).



Michele123 said:


> no one has watched me do it and I prefer to have more feedback



Coming from an old-school background myself, my reaction was similar. Our school seems to have the teaching philosophy of teaching in "layers" -- maybe yours does too. Like as a white belt you learn the white belt form, but there's not much concern about HOW you perform it. Then at yellow belt you learn a new form, but also revisit the previous form and clean up some of the techniques, and so on and so on at each belt level, until by black belt you're still performing the white belt form but now with excellent technique. As opposed to my long-ago instruction, where you didn't learn a new form until the old forms was perfect. This newer style of teaching took some getting used to.


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## Michele123

WaterGal said:


> Some of this is isn't about the style of martial arts, it's just the difference between a commercial school and a club. A commerical school often has very high expenses. We pay thousands of dollars a month in rent, thousands in payroll, hundreds in advertising, utilities, payment processing fees, cleaning supplies.... it all adds up. Someone teaching a couple hours a week at the rec center has very little overhead, so if they're just teaching for fun, they don't need to charge much at all.


Hmm. Good point. But at my old “club” we had 4-5 hours of training a week. At this commercial school, there are only two hours of training available per week for adult classes (instructor has a day job).  There is also only the one instructor here so no payroll. 

Thank you for the rest of your comments as well. I don’t have a response but it gives me something to mull over. 


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## Michele123

TrueJim said:


> But also, dan tests at our school are done by a committee of relatively high-ranking masters from schools other than our own (to enforce quality), and we pay for their travel and lodging if necessary.


All your comments were very helpful, thank you. But I wanted to respond to this in particular. This actually makes a lot of sense.   The Dan tests here are together with the whole association. It never occurred to me that there would be a cost besides a belt and a piece of paper (certificate). 



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## TrueJim

Michele123 said:


> All your comments were very helpful, thank you....



I'm awesome! 

But seriously, there was one other point that I wanted to make yesterday, but I ran out of time (I had to run as I was typing). 

We had this one teen in our school who had horrible 360 tornado kicks. Just awful. And none of the instructors ever corrected his technique! They just kept letting him perform horrible 360 kicks, week after week, month after month. As a new student, I found this very confusing. Why did nobody pull this kid aside and try to improve his technique? 

And then, one day, suddenly his kicks were good! It was...like magic. *Without any additional instruction*, he somehow mysteriously *self-corrected*? What the....!!!

From that point forward, I started paying closer attention to this phenomenon. I saw that same pattern repeated with a lot of children. Sloppy technique, week after week, with minimal correction from the instructors, sloppy sloppy sloppy...and then one day -- it's as if a lightbulb goes off over the head. Suddenly the kid "gets it". Suddenly the technique is looking crisp. 

I don't have a good understanding of this phenomenon. Is it that children are natural mimics?  Is it that their motor skills finally caught-up with the movements that their brains had been signaling the whole time?  I don't know.  What I learned from this is that humans don't seem to learn the way I thought they learned.  I guess teaching more "advanced" techniques early (before prior techniques are fully mastered) gives kids' brains the chance to play with the advanced techniques for a longer period of time, so the end result is faster progress? 

*Bottom line:* I agree with you; I too found modern taekwondo teaching fairly "weird" compared to what I was used to from my old-school days, but it actually seems to work remarkably well.


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## Earl Weiss

Yes, there is a development issue with children. It often falls into proprioception issues. The brains ability to know where the limbs are without looking.   Everyone has this issue to some extent but it develops in  us over time.    There is also a musculor development issue.   The only problem with letting someone do something wrong over a period of time is the potential for ingraining the neural pathways sometimes referred to as muscle memory, which the takes time to correct.


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## TrueJim

Earl Weiss said:


> The only problem with letting someone do something wrong over a period of time is the potential for ingraining the neural pathways sometimes referred to as muscle memory, which the takes time to correct.



Yes sir! That would have been my supposition too. I often thought, "Why are they letting these kids develop wrong muscle memory?" But then, as I said, some magic occurs, and suddenly the techniques look good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I'm as surprised as anyone that the "Don't correct them much, but make them repeat the technique even if incorrectly a lot" teaching technique somehow seems to yield good results. To your point, I still find it mystifying that this actually works.


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## _Simon_

TrueJim said:


> Yes sir! That would have been my supposition too. I often thought, "Why are they letting these kids develop wrong muscle memory?" But then, as I said, some magic occurs, and suddenly the techniques look good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I'm as surprised as anyone that the "Don't correct them much, but make them repeat the technique even if incorrectly a lot" teaching technique somehow seems to yield good results. To your point, I still find it mystifying that this actually works.


Yeah that is an interesting thought hey! So commonly are we told "perfect practice makes perfect", perhaps in some cases it is just "practice makes perfect". But still I guess it's important to teach and emphasise good technique, but we can't be at every single person critiquing every single millimetre of movement that's incorrect (and bound to happen). May be a proprioception thing that eventually clicks after all!


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## Jaeimseu

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah that is an interesting thought hey! So commonly are we told "perfect practice makes perfect", perhaps in some cases it is just "practice makes perfect". But still I guess it's important to teach and emphasise good technique, but we can't be at every single person critiquing every single millimetre of movement that's incorrect (and bound to happen). May be a proprioception thing that eventually clicks after all!



I think in many cases the student is simply incapable of performing the movement correctly. In this case it’s not necessarily a lack of understanding of the technique causing mistakes. At some point the mechanics click and the student can do it with confidence and without thinking. 


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## Michele123

So I think the first video in this tread: TMA and fighting.
TMA and fighting. really pinpoints what I find missing in Taekwando. And granted, maybe it is just where I study (though I really love the gym and the people). But when I studied Shutokan in my teen years, we learned the “why” of stuff and practiced it. The outside-inside block the guy in the video mentions being an armlock. We learned that and practiced it as both a block and an armlock. Same with the down block, up block, the inside-outside block, and so many more. They are all more than just blocks. Even strikes had more drtailed applications. That’s why in my old style they were very particular about the “cover” for the block. Because it’s really more than a cover. I’ve asked about the cover for blocks and strikes in Taekwando and people look at me blankly. Is this just something Taekwando leaves out?  Or do they not address it until much later?


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## pdg

It's been mentioned before, but I have to do it again - it's TaekwOndo (with or without various hyphenation)...

As to the actual question:

Application and interpretation varies from school to school, instructor to instructor and student to student.

I think the most prevalent though is "there is one application, here it is".

To go deeper into it (i.e. a block can be an attack, a strike isn't always a strike, some things translate to the ground) you need to find the right instructor or another like minded student - or you're on your own.

I do think that some branches of karate are more willing to view the techniques as concepts with variable interpretation than most of the tkd world, but even then it varies.

I've had the same blank stares, and I've had meaningful discussions about this very subject, so I really don't think it's a "higher rank" thing, it's more personal than that.


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> It's been mentioned before, but I have to do it again - it's TaekwOndo (with or without various hyphenation)...



Oh my!  Thank you!  I thought people were telling me no hyphen last time. My phone always put the a and I just assumed it was correct...

Taekwondo. I’ll remember that now. 


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## Dirty Dog

pdg said:


> I think the most prevalent though is "there is one application, here it is".



If anyone with instructor rank actually believes there is only one application for any movement used in TKD (and I'm including the chambers, when they're done properly) then run away. They're idiots.



Michele123 said:


> Oh my!  Thank you!  I thought people were telling me no hyphen last time. My phone always put the a and I just assumed it was correct...
> 
> Taekwondo. I’ll remember that now.



Literally, Tae (hand) Kwon (foot) Do (way) - the hand-foot way, or the Way (or Art) of Kicking and Punching.
Kwan means school or gym, and let's face it; the Hand Gym Way sounds like something that would involve spandex and shake weights.

Hyphenation is generally (though not always) a function of the org you're connected to. General Choi and his ITF always romanized it as Taekwon-Do, and the KKW typically uses Taekwondo. But Tae Kwon Do is also common, and I've seen Tae Kwon-Do more than once.

I would say the hyphenation is really inconsequential (unless it's being used to signify connection to a given org). But the difference between kwon and kwan IS significant.

Just for fun.... the native Koreans I know pronunce it Tay, not Tie.

And to further add to the confusion of romanizing Hangul...
On our rank certificates, MDK is MooDukKwan. One word, but capitalized as three words.


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## _Simon_

And just another thought here, it is great when there are multiple applications for specific movements, but at the same time if they're not actually drilled then to me it would just cause severe confusion. I've been told that certain blocks could be this, that, a strike, a block, a lock, a break out, and whilst that's great, these alternates were never drilled.

In this case I'd say that it is much better to have a technique with a sole purpose to eliminate confusion and direct your attention towards a single intention with a technique to actually make it laser focused and more effective. And one that you're actually using more on a frequent basis in training.

I've seen people spout the wonders of a particular technique just for wow factor of how many applications it has (shuto uke or shuto mawashi uke). We were excited to hear that, but it was just left at that. So obviously it depends on the school and whether applications are drilled.

But sometimes a single direct focus for a movement might be for the best.. just a thought


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> Just for fun.... the native Koreans I know pronunce it Tay, not Tie.



Yeah, 태 is more like "teh/tey" than "tie/thai". But that's not an intuitive pronounciation for native English speakers, for whatever reason.


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## pdg

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, 태 is more like "teh/tey" than "tie/thai". But that's not an intuitive pronounciation for native English speakers, for whatever reason.



But oddly, I can't think of an 'English' word that contains "ae" that's pronounced as in "tie".

Algae, aero(space/plane/bic), aeon, aesthetic, aeciospores, flea, haemorrhage, haemoglobin, patellae, tracheal, urethra...


Dammit, maestro


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## Dirty Dog

_Simon_ said:


> And just another thought here, it is great when there are multiple applications for specific movements, but at the same time if they're not actually drilled then to me it would just cause severe confusion. I've been told that certain blocks could be this, that, a strike, a block, a lock, a break out, and whilst that's great, these alternates were never drilled.



That's normal for beginners. It's because you have not yet grasped the underlying principles for the movements.
You simply _*can't*_ drill all the applications for a given movement. Because they're unlimited. 
Moving beyond techniques to an understanding and application of the principles of balance, timing, distancing, leverage, etc underlying them is one of the most difficult steps any student will ever take, in my experience. And many will never do so, for various reasons. To my mind, that step could well be the answer to the oft debated question of 'what makes a person a master.'


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## Michele123

We had our tournament. 

I think some of my concerns are put to rest from watching the demo team and the higher ranks compete. I’m now wondering if my perception of the competency level of students in my old style isn’t colored by the fact that I was among black belts when I left there?  Watching the upper ranks compete, there were definitely some good martial artists there. Even several of the poums (spelling?  They are basically Jr. Black belts) had good, clean, and crisp techniques. Looking around, it seemed to be a mixed bag until 2nd/3rd dan. From there on up it was clear they really knew their stuff. So maybe some of the stuff I miss from karate will return to me when I get to higher ranks in Taekwondo. Obviously the takedowns, falling, & grappling won’t. But maybe someday I can afford to cross-train with some form of jujitsu.  

——-
Anyhow, I thought I’d share how the tournament went for my daughter and I. 

It was a great experience. My daughter worked harder on her pattern this time and won 1st place in her division (of three). When it came to breaking, she didn’t get any of her breaks though and ended up in tears. Then they all had to do push-ups. The lady black belt actually look and talked to my daughter (from afar it seriously looked like she was examining my daughter’s face) then called for everyone to do push-ups.  My daughter thinks it’s because she was crying about not breaking that the lady made all the kids do push-ups.  Apparently the lady didn’t actually give a verbal reason for the push-ups though.  I’m not happy if my daughter was punished for crying from disappointment.  She’s six for crying out loud!  

My daughter did ok in sparing.  She runs toward her opponent but doesn’t kick much so she gets scored on a lot.  She did manage to get one point during one of her matches and she was very excited about that.  Since there were only three competing in her group she got third place.  

——
I feel pretty pleased with how I did in the tournament overall.  There were only three colored belts competing but I still got to push myself in each category.  Forms were first.  I did Taeguek Yi Jang, which I’d only learned a week and a half ago.  I’ve practiced it a lot since then on my own and, while it was far from perfect, I still did pretty good all things considering.  My biggest failing was that my stances were a bit off, according to the head judge.  I think I accidentally did crescent walk several times during the form (which is residual from my old style).  I nailed all the techniques and had good power and whatnot, according to the judge.  I managed to still get first place, ahead of another 7th gup and ahead of a 2nd gup.  I wish my husband had been able to be there to video my form again because I’d love to go back and watch it to figure out more about the "stances need work" feedback from the judge.  But my youngest two kids just couldn’t sit that long. 

Next event was breaking.  Up through 5 gup were supposed to have a set two breaks (same as the last tournament, turning side kick through two boards on one side, run to other side and do the same thing).  The 4th - 1st gup were supposed to have eight boards spread through four stations and get to pick their own breaks.  Since there were only the three of us total, we all had to do the four stations and eight boards thing.  

I was terrified. I’m not known for my flexibility. I had mentally and physically prepared for the breaks I expected to do. Now I have to come up with four different “stations” to break a total of eight boards. I’m also not the most creative person. We had about two minutes to decide what we wanted to do. A third dan talked with us a bit to try and give ideas. 

In the end, for my first station I took his suggestion. I broke one board punching forward and one behind me on the chamber (so an elbow). My second station I did the turning side kick through two boards. My third station I did a regular side kick through two boards. Finally I had two boards set on concrete blocks to break with an elbow swing down. This last one is the only one I didn’t break. My knee hit the ground before my elbow it the board and it took all the power out. I’d never done the break before and thought it was a matter of dropping my weight into it. I guess I needed to bend over more than drop. 

I’m still pleased with how I did. The whole situation was a stretch for me and I really didn’t want to do it but I did it anyway. I’m please that I hit the board correctly on the punch (first two knuckles) as it can be hard to tell on bags sometimes. I’m pleased I broke the double boards with my kicks. Last tournament my aim was completely off as I had not been taught how to line up for a turn side kick. Both of the kicking breaks are the ones I did for my double test, but my test was single boards. So I’m pleased I was able to get past the mental block of two boards. I don’t mind getting third (last) place as I had no expectations going in, especially once the breaks were changed. Before the tournament I just wanted to be able to break the double boards with my turn side kick. I feel like I accomplished this and more. 

Lastly was sparing. Apparently they do not have men and women spar each other. There were no other colored belt women there. There was one other woman there to spar, a 1st dan (who just received her invitation to test for 2nd dan). Since she had no one else to spar ether they paired us up. Sparring was never my best subject in karate and I haven’t really sparred since then (except briefly at a seminar in February). Anyhow, to be paired with a black belt was intimidating. I’m a 7th gup going against a 1st dan, who is also half my age. (Actually slightly less than half my age. She’s not quite 18). 

I was nervous but one thing that came back to me this week when thinking and practicing was dancing around. You know, not staying in the same spot, sliding to the outside of an opponent. Anyhow, I’m in slightly better shape so I dance around quite a bit. I try to wait until she commits to a technique and get around it to throw mine. At the very least, I exhausted us both!  A few times when I blocked her kicks from the side, she somehow leaned into me knocking me down. Neither of those scored a point though, just a pause on the timer. In the end, I actually managed to score more points than she did. I don’t know the actual score, but from their calling point, I’m pretty sure I got nearly two points to each of her points. I’m guessing they were being easier on me because of the rank difference. Still, it felt pretty great to perform so well when I had been so nervous. 

It’s funny, I may have gotten first in forms but that is the category I am least satisfied with. I feel like I could have done so much better if someone in my school had looked at my form at all after the first day they taught it to me. I feel much more accomplished in my other two categories where I was stretched and challenged more, both mentally and physically. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> We had our tournament.
> 
> I think some of my concerns are put to rest from watching the demo team and the higher ranks compete. I’m now wondering if my perception of the competency level of students in my old style isn’t colored by the fact that I was among black belts when I left there?  Watching the upper ranks compete, there were definitely some good martial artists there. Even several of the poums (spelling?  They are basically Jr. Black belts) had good, clean, and crisp techniques. Looking around, it seemed to be a mixed bag until 2nd/3rd dan. From there on up it was clear they really knew their stuff. So maybe some of the stuff I miss from karate will return to me when I get to higher ranks in Taekwondo. Obviously the takedowns, falling, & grappling won’t. But maybe someday I can afford to cross-train with some form of jujitsu.
> 
> ——-
> Anyhow, I thought I’d share how the tournament went for my daughter and I.
> 
> It was a great experience. My daughter worked harder on her pattern this time and won 1st place in her division (of three). When it came to breaking, she didn’t get any of her breaks though and ended up in tears. Then they all had to do push-ups. The lady black belt actually look and talked to my daughter (from afar it seriously looked like she was examining my daughter’s face) then called for everyone to do push-ups.  My daughter thinks it’s because she was crying about not breaking that the lady made all the kids do push-ups.  Apparently the lady didn’t actually give a verbal reason for the push-ups though.  I’m not happy if my daughter was punished for crying from disappointment.  She’s six for crying out loud!
> 
> My daughter did ok in sparing.  She runs toward her opponent but doesn’t kick much so she gets scored on a lot.  She did manage to get one point during one of her matches and she was very excited about that.  Since there were only three competing in her group she got third place.
> 
> ——
> I feel pretty pleased with how I did in the tournament overall.  There were only three colored belts competing but I still got to push myself in each category.  Forms were first.  I did Taeguek Yi Jang, which I’d only learned a week and a half ago.  I’ve practiced it a lot since then on my own and, while it was far from perfect, I still did pretty good all things considering.  My biggest failing was that my stances were a bit off, according to the head judge.  I think I accidentally did crescent walk several times during the form (which is residual from my old style).  I nailed all the techniques and had good power and whatnot, according to the judge.  I managed to still get first place, ahead of another 7th gup and ahead of a 2nd gup.  I wish my husband had been able to be there to video my form again because I’d love to go back and watch it to figure out more about the "stances need work" feedback from the judge.  But my youngest two kids just couldn’t sit that long.
> 
> Next event was breaking.  Up through 5 gup were supposed to have a set two breaks (same as the last tournament, turning side kick through two boards on one side, run to other side and do the same thing).  The 4th - 1st gup were supposed to have eight boards spread through four stations and get to pick their own breaks.  Since there were only the three of us total, we all had to do the four stations and eight boards thing.
> 
> I was terrified. I’m not known for my flexibility. I had mentally and physically prepared for the breaks I expected to do. Now I have to come up with four different “stations” to break a total of eight boards. I’m also not the most creative person. We had about two minutes to decide what we wanted to do. A third dan talked with us a bit to try and give ideas.
> 
> In the end, for my first station I took his suggestion. I broke one board punching forward and one behind me on the chamber (so an elbow). My second station I did the turning side kick through two boards. My third station I did a regular side kick through two boards. Finally I had two boards set on concrete blocks to break with an elbow swing down. This last one is the only one I didn’t break. My knee hit the ground before my elbow it the board and it took all the power out. I’d never done the break before and thought it was a matter of dropping my weight into it. I guess I needed to bend over more than drop.
> 
> I’m still pleased with how I did. The whole situation was a stretch for me and I really didn’t want to do it but I did it anyway. I’m please that I hit the board correctly on the punch (first two knuckles) as it can be hard to tell on bags sometimes. I’m pleased I broke the double boards with my kicks. Last tournament my aim was completely off as I had not been taught how to line up for a turn side kick. Both of the kicking breaks are the ones I did for my double test, but my test was single boards. So I’m pleased I was able to get past the mental block of two boards. I don’t mind getting third (last) place as I had no expectations going in, especially once the breaks were changed. Before the tournament I just wanted to be able to break the double boards with my turn side kick. I feel like I accomplished this and more.
> 
> Lastly was sparing. Apparently they do not have men and women spar each other. There were no other colored belt women there. There was one other woman there to spar, a 1st dan (who just received her invitation to test for 2nd dan). Since she had no one else to spar ether they paired us up. Sparring was never my best subject in karate and I haven’t really sparred since then (except briefly at a seminar in February). Anyhow, to be paired with a black belt was intimidating. I’m a 7th gup going against a 1st dan, who is also half my age. (Actually slightly less than half my age. She’s not quite 18).
> 
> I was nervous but one thing that came back to me this week when thinking and practicing was dancing around. You know, not staying in the same spot, sliding to the outside of an opponent. Anyhow, I’m in slightly better shape so I dance around quite a bit. I try to wait until she commits to a technique and get around it to throw mine. At the very least, I exhausted us both!  A few times when I blocked her kicks from the side, she somehow leaned into me knocking me down. Neither of those scored a point though, just a pause on the timer. In the end, I actually managed to score more points than she did. I don’t know the actual score, but from their calling point, I’m pretty sure I got nearly two points to each of her points. I’m guessing they were being easier on me because of the rank difference. Still, it felt pretty great to perform so well when I had been so nervous.
> 
> It’s funny, I may have gotten first in forms but that is the category I am least satisfied with. I feel like I could have done so much better if someone in my school had looked at my form at all after the first day they taught it to me. I feel much more accomplished in my other two categories where I was stretched and challenged more, both mentally and physically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's just awesome, congrats guys on a great result!!! You must be stoked about that!

Yes strange about the pushups for the kids...let alone doing that at a tournament, doesn't really make sense. She was clearly upset, so some encouragement and kind words you'd think would be beneficial... but first in forms that's amazing, a credit to her and you .

Awesome about the forms, especially as you had only just learned it, must have really put in some work with it . Ahhh yes the crescent walk, that took me soooo long to get out of that habit when I changed karate styles awhile back. Became such a habit haha...

Wow that would have been quite daunting the breaking section... especially going into it thinking it would not be that format for you guys! But awesome that you rose to the challenge and did freakin awesome, you'd be thrilled! Sometimes tournaments can throw you quite a curveball like that.

And facing a 1st dan would have been intimidating, but clearly you held your own there! Good point about moving around, it's really interesting watching other people's styles hey, some move around alot and stay super light on their feet, shuffle around the opponent and aren't so linear, then you have some more rooted, grounded and not as much movement, but really patient and working on perfect timing.

Yeah I'm still working on the nerves part having only done a handful of tournaments, but it does feel like it gets that slight bit easier every time. You're getting me real excited about my tournament now this weekend hehe.

Well done Michele a fantastic result


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## TrueJim

Punishment pushups at a tournament?


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## Michele123

WaterGal said:


> Some of that may be because of your prior experience. Some of that is probably the school. Some of that is probably the style - KKW TKD tends to view black belt as, like, "you've got a good handle on the fundamentals", while many other arts view it as a very high rank. So KKW TKD schools often move through the color belt ranks more quickly than some other styles do, to try to get you to black belt where you do the "good stuff".



I wanted to revisit this.  After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference.  In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly).  It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.  Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits.  I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.  

I’ve also come to grips with the idea that this school is focused solely on taekwondo, which is primarily kicking.  If I want other aspects of Martial Arts I’ll have to cross train. 

I want to thank you and everyone who commented before.  I feel 100% better about things and excited about studying taekwondo again.


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> I’ve also come to grips with the idea that this school is focused solely on taekwondo, which is primarily kicking



How much depends on the style and how it's taught...

We do almost as much with hands (and to a lesser extent elbows and knees) as direct kicking.


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> I wanted to revisit this.  After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference.  In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly).  It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.  Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits.  I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.
> 
> I’ve also come to grips with the idea that this school is focused solely on taekwondo, which is primarily kicking.  If I want other aspects of Martial Arts I’ll have to cross train.
> 
> I want to thank you and everyone who commented before.  I feel 100% better about things and excited about studying taekwondo again.


Hi Michele123.  Like you, I studied a different martial art, Tang Soo Do, in the past, and am now doing TKD.  I am on a similar journey, starting at the beginning, but finding a lot of similarities between TKD and my former style.

I had a similar epiphany a few weeks ago when one of the black belts told me she was training for her black belt test.  Confused, I asked what she meant, since she already had her black belt.  She had her provisional black belt.  And it finally hit me.  That was the rank I had attained in Tang Soo Do, which they called Cho Dan Bo, or Black Belt Candidate.  In my current style you test from high brown to provisional black, then test for black belt 6 to 12 months later.  In TSD, you test from high red to cho dan bo, but you still wear your red belt until you test for black belt.  I wondered how it was possible that I trained for almost 3 years in TSD and only made it to red belt whereas theoretically, it is possible to test for provisional black belt in just 2 years in TKD.


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## pdg

mrt2 said:


> whereas theoretically, it is possible to test for provisional black belt in just 2 years in TKD.



Again, depends on the system.

I've been doing TKD for just over 2 years and I'm 3rd kup. I've tested each time at the minimum time in grade.

If I carry on at the same 'speed' it's another year at the minimum (and two tests) before I'm 1st kup, then another year before being able to be recommended for BB testing.

So, the quickest you can get to BB is 4 years - we don't have a 'provisional' or 'candidate' BB.


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## WaterGal

TrueJim said:


> Yes sir! That would have been my supposition too. I often thought, "Why are they letting these kids develop wrong muscle memory?" But then, as I said, some magic occurs, and suddenly the techniques look good. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  I'm as surprised as anyone that the "Don't correct them much, but make them repeat the technique even if incorrectly a lot" teaching technique somehow seems to yield good results. To your point, I still find it mystifying that this actually works.



If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?

I think that there's a balance to be found - give some correction, but not too much. If a student is constantly getting corrected, they may feel like "I can't get this right, I'm never going to get this". So a little bit of correction here and there, praise what they do they _correctly _to reinforce that & keep them motivated ("good job pivoting your foot!", "good kihap!", etc), and let them keep trying.


----------



## WaterGal

Michele123 said:


> I wanted to revisit this.  After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference.  In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly).  It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.  Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits.  I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.



I think most people don't know that. I've been told that in Korea, it's not uncommon to get your black belt in _one year_. So that's a very different view of black belt from what we tend to have in the US based on pop culture. At the other extreme is BJJ, where a black belt is so high-level that a lot of school owners don't even have one.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I wanted to revisit this.  After our tournament this weekend and watching the black belts, I think this is absolutely the crux of the difference.  In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly).  It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.  Seeing it that way makes everything fall into place better. Rather than comparing kyu - gup and Dan to Dan, when I adjust for this difference in what the belts mean everything fits.  I guess I never realized that 1st Dan had different meanings in different styles.
> 
> I’ve also come to grips with the idea that this school is focused solely on taekwondo, which is primarily kicking.  If I want other aspects of Martial Arts I’ll have to cross train.
> 
> I want to thank you and everyone who commented before.  I feel 100% better about things and excited about studying taekwondo again.



Yeah that's a great observation Michele. A 1st Dan definitely means something and represents something different in different styles. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Absolutely not. Of course they all represent some degree of mastery or skill of the specific art, but to what degree seems different from style to style.

For example, in my previous style of Kyokushin karate, I witnessed multiple black belt gradings. They were.... hmm I can't even find the right word. Brutal is one word, epic, insane, probably the most challenging thing I've ever seen people do in person. They were so very intense. Not only technically did the candidates have to be at a great level, but in terms of endurance/stamina, and fighting spirit it's truly out of this world. Not only after hours and hours of almost nonstop basics, self-defense, combination patterns, kata, calisthenics and exercises, but 40 rounds of intense full contact kumite after that. Because that's what the style emphasises and what its all about, of course getting to a pinnacle of that is going to be difficult!

Reaching a 1st Dan in Kyokushin is massive, and compared to some other black belt gradings, they are miles different.

And it's important (and what I'm coming to realise more) to see that this isn't a bad thing, as every style is just different, and black belt represents a different level RELATIVE to the specific art. So to me this brings a sort of comfort, as it's specific to the art, and too many dismiss other gradings as being too easy, but it's moreso what it means to the art itself.



WaterGal said:


> If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?
> 
> I think that there's a balance to be found - give some correction, but not too much. If a student is constantly getting corrected, they may feel like "I can't get this right, I'm never going to get this". So a little bit of correction here and there, praise what they do they _correctly _to reinforce that & keep them motivated ("good job pivoting your foot!", "good kihap!", etc), and let them keep trying.



Very well said! I always try to praise as well, but I'll remember that with our kid's classes to not constantly correct the same things too much


----------



## andyjeffries

Michele123 said:


> In my karate school, 1st Dan meant you were high enough to teach and open a school (which I did briefly).  It seems that my old style 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to KKW 3rd Dan.



This definitely depends on the school, their background and the country. In the UK, you can open your own school at 1st Dan in Taekwondo, which generally takes 3-5 years of practice). You can't promote people, but you can have your own students and teach. At 4th Dan you can promote people.

In Korea, it takes 1 year to get from know-nothing to 1st Poom/Dan. However, you can't open a school until 4th Dan.

So it depends on your club/association's view of a 1st Dan - is it instructor level, or more in-line with the Korean viewpoint that it's a competent-beginner rank.


----------



## Earl Weiss

WaterGal said:


> If you think about it, don't we learn a lot of stuff in life that way? Messing up over and over again until we work out how to get it right?
> .




Old saying "The amount of expertise you have is directly proportional to the amount of things you have messed up."


----------



## Michele123

It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week. 

I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down. 

The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me. 

The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact. 

Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make  it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out. 

On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress. 

It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts. 

Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week.
> 
> I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down.
> 
> The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me.
> 
> The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact.
> 
> Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make  it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out.
> 
> On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress.
> 
> It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts.
> 
> Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah nice, yeah spinning back kicks can be hard to get accurate with, but I reckon do as much drilling of it as you can, even on a bag and markout on the bag or pick a spot where you want to land it, going through really slowly with proper technique, and picking up the speed bit by bit when you're ready.

Ah wow I'm intrigued, what is the 21 movement thing? It's not 21 breaks in 12 seconds or less?? Yikes hehe.

And yeah that could be a fun challenge hehe! But yeah might be hard to perform how you'd like on the day with such little rest, up to you ay.. but do let us know how ya go, very exciting 

That's great to hear about your little one loving training too . I rather enjoyed when my whole family and I were all training in karate


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> It’s been awhile so I wanted to check in. I finished teaching for spring semester and have summer off so I’ve been getting TM train twice a week. I love getting to go in more than once a week.
> 
> I’ll be testing for my next rank in a few weeks (6th gup or blue belt here). I’ll just be doing a single test this time. I’m pretty sure I have everything close to nailed down.
> 
> The only things I’m a bit concerned about are my break (spinning back kick) and I have to complete 21 movement in 12 seconds or less. My best time so far is 13 1/2 seconds if I have a good holder. I can do it pretty fast on my own at home, but it gets slower when I have someone holding for me.
> 
> The break is a slight concern for me because the kick is so different from anything I did before. I’ve been having trouble remembering to dip my shoulder really low to get the proper angle on my foot on contact.
> 
> Theoretically, 3 weeks would be plenty of time to work these things out. However, we are going across the country to visit family in a week. Or flight arrives back here the day of the test (vacation was planned before I knew testing dates). So, I have two classes left before two weeks off and straight into a test. I’m not sure we will be able to even make  it to the test that day (my daughter should be testing for another white belt stripe that day also). I’d like to, but we will be getting up at 3am to begin our long day of travel back. Even if we got home and changed in time for the test, I’m not sure we will be in any condition to actually test. My instructor said we can test the next class after the official test so we will see. Part of me is attracted at the thought of such a challenge. The other part of me thinks it’s crazy, exhausting, and a situation ripe for injury. We will see which part of me wins out.
> 
> On another note, my son (second child) has recently started Taekwondo. He loves it already. When he was asked to do a roundhouse kick for the first time, he did it without any instruction. Our instructor said it shows that he’s been coming and watching big sister for so many months. He’s never had a kid be able to do a roundhouse kick with no instruction before. My son is a natural at sports in general so I’m sure that coordination helps. Hopefully his age keeps h from progressing too fast for now. I know my daughter would be devastated if he surpasses her quickly. She’s struggled with motor delays in the past and I don’t want her to give up when she realizes little brother has more aptitude than she does. She’s worked hard and done well despite her difficulties. I’ve actually been really impressed in watching her progress.
> 
> It’s funny, before I had kids I was never a big proponent of kids in martial arts. But it has been wonderful for my daughter and she actually has learned a lot. I like also, that the young kids have stripes to earn between the full colored belts because it helps them to master smaller chunks of the material at a time but still have the encouragement that they are making progress. It also doesn’t water down the ranks because they actually have to be able to do the material well (physical limitations considered) to earn their belts.
> 
> Enough of my ramblings. Just thought I’d through an update out. Hopefully by the end of June I’ll be posting an update that my daughter and I both pass our tests.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think the people who don’t like children being in the MA fall into 2 categories (or both) - they don’t have kids, or they think MA for kids is about building a fighting machine.  MA for kids should really be about two things - getting kids to love training, and teaching them a solid foundation for when they’re physically and mentally ready to train as an adult.  None of that means give (or sell  ) them high ranks like black belts and turn the place into a glorified daycare facility though.  

I really miss watching my daughter train and practicing with her at home.  She trained from age 5-6.  She got bored, kind of like a been there done that thing.  She’s 7 now.  Hopefully she’ll get the interest back.  My other daughter just turned 5.  If her big sister’s not doing it, she’s not going to either.


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## Michele123

_Simon_ said:


> Ah nice, yeah spinning back kicks can be hard to get accurate with, but I reckon do as much drilling of it as you can, even on a bag and markout on the bag or pick a spot where you want to land it, going through really slowly with proper technique, and picking up the speed bit by bit when you're ready.



Yeah. That’s what I’ve been trying to do. It so different because when I was in karate, a spinning back kick kicked like, well, a back kick. In Taekwondo the kick is more of a swinging arch rather than kicking straight back. And the foot position is somewhere between a back kick and a side kick but contact is still made with the heel. Just so different than what I’m familiar with in karate. 




_Simon_ said:


> Ah wow I'm intrigued, what is the 21 movement thing? It's not 21 breaks in 12 seconds or less?? Yikes hehe.


Haha nope!  It’s a series of 21 techniques strung together, much like a kata, but linear and with someone holding targets and doing the opponents piece (I.e. kicking you if you have a block for a kick there). You can check YouTube for Taekwondo 21 movement to see what it is about. Most seem to be the same. 


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## Michele123

JR 137 said:


> I think the people who don’t like children being in the MA fall into 2 categories (or both) - they don’t have kids, or they think MA for kids is about building a fighting machine.  MA for kids should really be about two things - getting kids to love training, and teaching them a solid foundation for when they’re physically and mentally ready to train as an adult.  None of that means give (or sell  ) them high ranks like black belts and turn the place into a glorified daycare facility though.
> 
> I really miss watching my daughter train and practicing with her at home.  She trained from age 5-6.  She got bored, kind of like a been there done that thing.  She’s 7 now.  Hopefully she’ll get the interest back.  My other daughter just turned 5.  If her big sister’s not doing it, she’s not going to either.



That makes sense. There is a McDojo nearby that does just sell the belts (though they swear to you that they don’t, I could go on a long rant about them but I won’t). In our school, the kids have to earn it (from what I can see). They don’t automatically pass when they test. 

I hope my daughter and son keep with Taekwondo for now. My youngest isn’t old enough yet for class but desperately wants to join. She still has 2 1/2 years before she is old enough. For now she just copies what she sees. 

I hope your daughter becomes interested again. 


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> That makes sense. There is a McDojo nearby that does just sell the belts (though they swear to you that they don’t, I could go on a long rant about them but I won’t). In our school, the kids have to earn it (from what I can see). They don’t automatically pass when they test.
> 
> I hope my daughter and son keep with Taekwondo for now. My youngest isn’t old enough yet for class but desperately wants to join. She still has 2 1/2 years before she is old enough. For now she just copies what she sees.
> 
> I hope your daughter becomes interested again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There’s a McDojo 3 blocks from the (academic) school I teach at.  They claim it takes an average of 5-7 years for kids to get a black belt.  I’ve had at least a dozen students over the years who “earned” one there, between 4-8 grade.  I have yet to meet one who took longer than 2 years.  Most are 18 months.  And trust me, they’re not gifted athletes nor are they going to multiple classes every single day.  In contrast, the school I attend has a minimum 1 year wait between 1st kyu and 1st dan test.  Most often it’s about 18 months due to my teacher being conservative and the timing of the test itself.  So a lot of people at my dojo spend more time as a brown belt than they do from white to black.  Gotta love the McDojo madness.


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## Michele123

JR 137 said:


> There’s a McDojo 3 blocks from the (academic) school I teach at.  They claim it takes an average of 5-7 years for kids to get a black belt.  I’ve had at least a dozen students over the years who “earned” one there, between 4-8 grade.  I have yet to meet one who took longer than 2 years.  Most are 18 months.  And trust me, they’re not gifted athletes nor are they going to multiple classes every single day.  In contrast, the school I attend has a minimum 1 year wait between 1st kyu and 1st dan test.  Most often it’s about 18 months due to my teacher being conservative and the timing of the test itself.  So a lot of people at my dojo spend more time as a brown belt than they do from white to black.  Gotta love the McDojo madness.



That sounds similar. The one here charges a semester of college for one “program” (half the ranks to black belt) which is supposed to last 18-24 months but for some reason each child they get had an uncanny gift for martial arts and gets through the program in a year or less.  They swear up and down that their pricing mode gives them no incentive to promote kids that aren’t ready. When I questioned one parent to get her to think about it, she realized this is exactly the pricing method that encourages quick and unearned promotions. 


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> That sounds similar. The one here charges a semester of college for one “program” (half the ranks to black belt) which is supposed to last 18-24 months but for some reason each child they get had an uncanny gift for martial arts and gets through the program in a year or less.  They swear up and down that their pricing mode gives them no incentive to promote kids that aren’t ready. When I questioned one parent to get her to think about it, she realized this is exactly the pricing method that encourages quick and unearned promotions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yup.  The place I’m talking about has a “black belt plan.”  You pay one price, either up front or financed, and you train until you pass your 1st dan test.  It’s a good financial deal if you take 5-7 years to get there.  But if you leave, no refunds; you can come back and pick up where you left off.  So people do the math and think cost divided by 6 years works out to be around $90/month, which is cheaper than the average monthly tuition at other local commercial schools.

But when you do cost divided by the real norm of 2 years, and yeah, it’s obvious it’s not a great deal at all.  And you get a new and more expensive contract until 2nd dan.

So the quicker you get that black belt, the quicker they can get you for another $7k contract.  Remember, the contract is a flat fee regardless of how long it takes or how quickly you get there.  You’re paying to train until a rank; you’re not paying for how long it takes to get said rank.


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## Michele123

What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?  

The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently. 

I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.

However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?  

TIA for any advice. 


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?
> 
> The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.
> 
> I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.
> 
> However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?
> 
> TIA for any advice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Contact the head instructor ahead of time to see if it is OK, and don't assume the class will be free.  Honestly though, unless you are on vacation a really long time, you could probably just take a break from MA for a week, or practice on your own early in the morning or at night.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?
> 
> The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.
> 
> I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.
> 
> However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?
> 
> TIA for any advice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I reckon it's a great idea. Would be a great experience to train with others, and most places seem very welcoming to visitors. But yeah it's a nice idea to contact them just to ask, as there may be some places that don't allow it (insurance/safety reasons maybe?).

Can't think of many dos or don'ts, except maybe just going along with how the class does things without interrupting etc. But I reckon it'd be good fun, I loved it when people dropped in from other styles/clubs


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> What do you all think about visiting another school while on vacation?
> 
> The one I’m thinking about is advertised as Taekwondo (not part of our small association) but I’m not sure if it is Kukkiwon or not. I like the idea of getting a workout or two in over vacation that isn’t just me practicing on my own. I also like the idea of meeting new people and seeing how things are done differently.
> 
> I’m not sure if it’ll work out for me to go because leaving my husband with three small kids at bedtime in a tiny hotel room might be too torturous for him.
> 
> However, if I do go, what are the do’s and don’t’s of visiting another school?
> 
> TIA for any advice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I suggest you do it every time you travel. Great way to expand your horizons.


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## Michele123

I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them. 

We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?

I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see. 


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.
> 
> We are flying to our destination, *so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it.* Thought?
> 
> I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My school requires all students to wear a uniform.  If someone showed up without a uniform, they would have to borrow one from us.


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.
> 
> We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?
> 
> I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Again, check with the visiting Instructor. He may prefer you wear sweats and a tee shirt, especially if your Dobok is loud with logos and patches. Not sure why taking your Dobok is difficult to take though. Just pack it with the rest of your clothing. Because I used to travel a lot and visited as many schools as possible, I made a small bag I could put in my carry on with uni and a few pads. The intent was never to go and try to be the BMOC, just to get a good workout and experience other culture. Don't over think it.


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## dvcochran

mrt2 said:


> My school requires all students to wear a uniform.  If someone showed up without a uniform, they would have to borrow one from us.



I disagree with this concept. I understand decorum and all, but why demand a person pay for a uniform up front? If the instructor is confident and it is a quality program it shouldn't matter the attire for the first class as long as it is appropriate of working out (no short, shorts, etc...). Pay up front for a "trial lesson"? No way.  
I do remember a few times being caught out traveling and not having a Dobok. A couple of times I was given a Dobok to keep which was very gracious. I know being up front and able to show your certification greatly helps in situation like these. One time I was told I would have to buy a Dobok if I wanted to work out. I respectfully left. That is a for profit situation I do not agree with.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I got in touch with the school I was referring to. The instructor welcomed me to join them.
> 
> We are flying to our destination, so it would be hard for me to bring my dobok but since it isn’t my school anyway I’m not sure if I should make an effort to bring it and wear it. Thought?
> 
> I still have to convince my husband that this isn’t a bad idea. I’m hoping to be able to go once or twice over the two weeks vacation. We will see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ah that's exciting! Yeah I wouldn't see that it would be necessary, but if I was visiting I would definitely wear mine, just cos I love training in it more than anything! But yeah if people trial classes without one it would make sense that it would be fine.

And yeah once or twice in two weeks isn't much time taken away at all, it's your vacation too after all


----------



## mrt2

dvcochran said:


> I disagree with this concept. I understand decorum and all, but why demand a person pay for a uniform up front? If the instructor is confident and it is a quality program it shouldn't matter the attire for the first class as long as it is appropriate of working out (no short, shorts, etc...). Pay up front for a "trial lesson"? No way.
> I do remember a few times being caught out traveling and not having a Dobok. A couple of times I was given a Dobok to keep which was very gracious. I know being up front and able to show your certification greatly helps in situation like these. One time I was told I would have to buy a Dobok if I wanted to work out. I respectfully left. That is a for profit situation I do not agree with.


I didn't say buy, I said borrow.  The day I showed up at my current school for my first class, the head instructor handed me a uniform.  He said if I joined, I could keep the uniform, and if I didn't, just to wash it and return it.


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## pdg

To be honest, a properly folded dobok takes up no more room than a rolled hand towel...


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> To be honest, a properly folded dobok takes up no more room than a rolled hand towel...



Yes. But we had very limited space, not checking any bags, and have three kids to pack for. One is a lap baby which means she doesn’t get a carry on, so all baby supplies have to fit into the rest of our carryons. We are not bringing any towels, only packing a few days of clothes (hoping to find a laundromat), etc. packing is very tight. 


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## Michele123

I didn’t end up getting to visit the other school while on vacation. We vacationed where I grew up and I ended up spending all my time visiting with family I haven’t seen in person for 4 years. I would have liked to visit a school while there but only if family weren’t around. Since there was always someone available I chose to spend time catching up with them instead. 

I didn’t even get to practice much. We were staying in a small motel and the only place with enough space would have been the parking lot. I did get to practice a bit one day on the beach. That was fun and brought back memories. My old dojo used to meet at the beach during the month of July. We’d have our classes out there in the sand. It was great for balance and whatnot. 

We got back from vacation the day of the test. We had to be up at 2am to get to the airport in time. I tried to nap once we were home but my toddler didn’t sleep long and I dreamed that I got to my test and couldn’t remember any Taekwondo. Instead I did my old karate stuff. Oops. By the time I would have needed to leave for my test the kids were all melting down and exhausted and I was so tired I was having a hard time walking straight. So I didn’t end up testing. 

The class after that I was still exhausted and seemed to keep catching my toes on the mat somehow. My instructor noticed and said he was going to wait to test me until tonight. So tonight I went in. I’ve practiced daily since returning from vacation but still felt less prepared than I had before leaving. I was also really nervous about the break because I’d only done a spinning back kick on a bag so far and it just doesn’t feel like a powerful kick, at least not as powerful as a side kick. 

We had an intense warm-up and then he had me go through all my material with a black belt to make sure I was ready. I was physically exhausted by the time my test started. 

The first thing I had to do was intermediate kicking 1-10. In not sure if/what I did wrong, but he had us go through it continually until he said stop. We went through it 2 1/2 times I think. We did it so fast that, after everything else from class I was winded. I must have done ok though because then he had me do my form (Taeguk Yi Jang). 

Probably because of my exhaustion (I wasn’t actually feeling nervous at this point, just dead on my feet), I somehow messed it up. I have no idea what I did but someone I went right before left in the middle with the kick and face punch. Thankfully he chalked it up to nerves and gave me a second chance and my body cooperated this time and I did it just fine. I’m still scratching my head about my first attempt though. I seriously don’t know how I got where I was. 

Next I did basic counter attacks and did fine on those. Then I did 21 movement and got it under 12 seconds!  With how exhausted I was at this point I was shocked I did it so well. 

Finally came my break. I was expecting to need a second chance (usually people get two chances to break their board and if they don’t, they don’t pass). I had to mentally tell myself that I was going to break it the first try. Then I went for it. Shockingly, it broke the first try!

I really hope I can make the actual testing date next time. At those tests you warm up on your own and there isn’t a class prior to your test to wear out all your stamina. I think I would have done much better if I wasn’t so worn out before starting. And the blunder on the form kind of bugs me because I KNOW that form very well. 

Anyhow. I’m glad I passed my test. My daughter hasn’t tested yet. She got sick right after we got home so hopefully she will get to test tomorrow. 


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----------



## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> I didn’t end up getting to visit the other school while on vacation. We vacationed where I grew up and I ended up spending all my time visiting with family I haven’t seen in person for 4 years. I would have liked to visit a school while there but only if family weren’t around. Since there was always someone available I chose to spend time catching up with them instead.
> 
> I didn’t even get to practice much. We were staying in a small motel and the only place with enough space would have been the parking lot. I did get to practice a bit one day on the beach. That was fun and brought back memories. My old dojo used to meet at the beach during the month of July. We’d have our classes out there in the sand. It was great for balance and whatnot.
> 
> We got back from vacation the day of the test. We had to be up at 2am to get to the airport in time. I tried to nap once we were home but my toddler didn’t sleep long and I dreamed that I got to my test and couldn’t remember any Taekwondo. Instead I did my old karate stuff. Oops. By the time I would have needed to leave for my test the kids were all melting down and exhausted and I was so tired I was having a hard time walking straight. So I didn’t end up testing.
> 
> The class after that I was still exhausted and seemed to keep catching my toes on the mat somehow. My instructor noticed and said he was going to wait to test me until tonight. So tonight I went in. I’ve practiced daily since returning from vacation but still felt less prepared than I had before leaving. I was also really nervous about the break because I’d only done a spinning back kick on a bag so far and it just doesn’t feel like a powerful kick, at least not as powerful as a side kick.
> 
> We had an intense warm-up and then he had me go through all my material with a black belt to make sure I was ready. I was physically exhausted by the time my test started.
> 
> The first thing I had to do was intermediate kicking 1-10. In not sure if/what I did wrong, but he had us go through it continually until he said stop. We went through it 2 1/2 times I think. We did it so fast that, after everything else from class I was winded. I must have done ok though because then he had me do my form (Taeguk Yi Jang).
> 
> Probably because of my exhaustion (I wasn’t actually feeling nervous at this point, just dead on my feet), I somehow messed it up. I have no idea what I did but someone I went right before left in the middle with the kick and face punch. Thankfully he chalked it up to nerves and gave me a second chance and my body cooperated this time and I did it just fine. I’m still scratching my head about my first attempt though. I seriously don’t know how I got where I was.
> 
> Next I did basic counter attacks and did fine on those. Then I did 21 movement and got it under 12 seconds!  With how exhausted I was at this point I was shocked I did it so well.
> 
> Finally came my break. I was expecting to need a second chance (usually people get two chances to break their board and if they don’t, they don’t pass). I had to mentally tell myself that I was going to break it the first try. Then I went for it. Shockingly, it broke the first try!
> 
> I really hope I can make the actual testing date next time. At those tests you warm up on your own and there isn’t a class prior to your test to wear out all your stamina. I think I would have done much better if I wasn’t so worn out before starting. And the blunder on the form kind of bugs me because I KNOW that form very well.
> 
> Anyhow. I’m glad I passed my test. My daughter hasn’t tested yet. She got sick right after we got home so hopefully she will get to test tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Great job! There is a positive quality to a makeup test like that. The additional stress added by the class before and harder warmup was, of course, part of the test as well. You mentioned your mental stress before and during the test and I commend you for rising to the occasion, and admitting the moments of error. I am certain you will remember and use them to fuel your practice areas going forward. So next test you have not only the curriculum going forward to work on but also these weak areas you had looking back. Breaking is so much more mental than most people realize. Being exhausted may have helped you by making you loose and not overly mentally engaged. Was your form Taeguek 2 (Ee jang)? Just curious.
Congrats, and thanks for the great update.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I didn’t end up getting to visit the other school while on vacation. We vacationed where I grew up and I ended up spending all my time visiting with family I haven’t seen in person for 4 years. I would have liked to visit a school while there but only if family weren’t around. Since there was always someone available I chose to spend time catching up with them instead.
> 
> I didn’t even get to practice much. We were staying in a small motel and the only place with enough space would have been the parking lot. I did get to practice a bit one day on the beach. That was fun and brought back memories. My old dojo used to meet at the beach during the month of July. We’d have our classes out there in the sand. It was great for balance and whatnot.
> 
> We got back from vacation the day of the test. We had to be up at 2am to get to the airport in time. I tried to nap once we were home but my toddler didn’t sleep long and I dreamed that I got to my test and couldn’t remember any Taekwondo. Instead I did my old karate stuff. Oops. By the time I would have needed to leave for my test the kids were all melting down and exhausted and I was so tired I was having a hard time walking straight. So I didn’t end up testing.
> 
> The class after that I was still exhausted and seemed to keep catching my toes on the mat somehow. My instructor noticed and said he was going to wait to test me until tonight. So tonight I went in. I’ve practiced daily since returning from vacation but still felt less prepared than I had before leaving. I was also really nervous about the break because I’d only done a spinning back kick on a bag so far and it just doesn’t feel like a powerful kick, at least not as powerful as a side kick.
> 
> We had an intense warm-up and then he had me go through all my material with a black belt to make sure I was ready. I was physically exhausted by the time my test started.
> 
> The first thing I had to do was intermediate kicking 1-10. In not sure if/what I did wrong, but he had us go through it continually until he said stop. We went through it 2 1/2 times I think. We did it so fast that, after everything else from class I was winded. I must have done ok though because then he had me do my form (Taeguk Yi Jang).
> 
> Probably because of my exhaustion (I wasn’t actually feeling nervous at this point, just dead on my feet), I somehow messed it up. I have no idea what I did but someone I went right before left in the middle with the kick and face punch. Thankfully he chalked it up to nerves and gave me a second chance and my body cooperated this time and I did it just fine. I’m still scratching my head about my first attempt though. I seriously don’t know how I got where I was.
> 
> Next I did basic counter attacks and did fine on those. Then I did 21 movement and got it under 12 seconds!  With how exhausted I was at this point I was shocked I did it so well.
> 
> Finally came my break. I was expecting to need a second chance (usually people get two chances to break their board and if they don’t, they don’t pass). I had to mentally tell myself that I was going to break it the first try. Then I went for it. Shockingly, it broke the first try!
> 
> I really hope I can make the actual testing date next time. At those tests you warm up on your own and there isn’t a class prior to your test to wear out all your stamina. I think I would have done much better if I wasn’t so worn out before starting. And the blunder on the form kind of bugs me because I KNOW that form very well.
> 
> Anyhow. I’m glad I passed my test. My daughter hasn’t tested yet. She got sick right after we got home so hopefully she will get to test tomorrow.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's so awesome to hear Michele, well done! A massive effort, and good call not doing the test the day you got back.

Ah trust me these things happen in tests that are real headscratchers haha.. especially things you've done a million times before! It's all part of it and we can't do everything perfect every time.

Sounds like really nailed most of it though, and considering your state at the time that's something really significant for you. Well done


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## Michele123

Thanks gentlemen.  I’m still bugged about the form. Never in all the years I did karate did something like this happen. Usually I still something so much that once the test begins, autopilot takes over and I do great. I was on autopilot this time too, which is why I can’t for the life of me figure out what I did. I only came out of autopilot when I couldn’t go forward because I was in the wrong position. Very frustrating for this perfectionist. 

@dvcochran yes, it was Taeguek 2


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## Michele123

So my daughter tested today. As much as I sometimes pine for my old karate dojo, I think Taekwondo has been fantastic for my daughter. The instructor is really amazing with the kids. I love how he brings in and related life lessons that we’ve been working on at home to what is going on in the gym. My daughter has actually spent a lot of time practicing her form the last couple days which is a miracle in itself. She rarely wants to practice even though I invite her to practice with me almost daily. In any case, even though she got it down during practice, old muscle memory came into play and she did a wrong turn. Rather than getting upset, she just corrected it and was given a second try at her pattern. She then did it correctly. Our instructor, when awarding her her belt after the test, pointed out how great it was that she’d just accepted and learned from her mistake, rather than getting upset about it. For some reason, hearing those types of lessons from an adult other than mom or dad makes them sink in more. 

Anyhow, I’m thrilled with how she’s doing and everything she’s learning in class. She’s on the ASD spectrum and it really has been super helpful for her. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Thanks gentlemen.  I’m still bugged about the form. Never in all the years I did karate did something like this happen. Usually I still something so much that once the test begins, autopilot takes over and I do great. I was on autopilot this time too, which is why I can’t for the life of me figure out what I did. I only came out of autopilot when I couldn’t go forward because I was in the wrong position. Very frustrating for this perfectionist.



Ah yeah I know the feeling.. understand that frustration, minor slipups happen and its cos we don't have control over everything. Especially during a grading, where we already feel all this pressure, sometimes the brain will just do funky things. And it's not really about the form, it's you being hard on yourself that hurts (trust me I've done far too many years of it...). Even with the absolute best and optimal preparation anything can happen ay! I know that's been a big part of my martial arts journey, a focus of easing up and being kind to myself.




Michele123 said:


> So my daughter tested today. As much as I sometimes pine for my old karate dojo, I think Taekwondo has been fantastic for my daughter. The instructor is really amazing with the kids. I love how he brings in and related life lessons that we’ve been working on at home to what is going on in the gym. My daughter has actually spent a lot of time practicing her form the last couple days which is a miracle in itself. She rarely wants to practice even though I invite her to practice with me almost daily. In any case, even though she got it down during practice, old muscle memory came into play and she did a wrong turn. Rather than getting upset, she just corrected it and was given a second try at her pattern. She then did it correctly. Our instructor, when awarding her her belt after the test, pointed out how great it was that she’d just accepted and learned from her mistake, rather than getting upset about it. For some reason, hearing those types of lessons from an adult other than mom or dad makes them sink in more.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m thrilled with how she’s doing and everything she’s learning in class. She’s on the ASD spectrum and it really has been super helpful for her.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That's so awesome to hear... and congrats she graded! Sounds like such a great instructor  but props to your daughter, what a great attitude she's learning and developing!


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> So my daughter tested today. As much as I sometimes pine for my old karate dojo, I think Taekwondo has been fantastic for my daughter. The instructor is really amazing with the kids. I love how he brings in and related life lessons that we’ve been working on at home to what is going on in the gym. My daughter has actually spent a lot of time practicing her form the last couple days which is a miracle in itself. She rarely wants to practice even though I invite her to practice with me almost daily. In any case, even though she got it down during practice, old muscle memory came into play and she did a wrong turn. Rather than getting upset, she just corrected it and was given a second try at her pattern. She then did it correctly. Our instructor, when awarding her her belt after the test, pointed out how great it was that she’d just accepted and learned from her mistake, rather than getting upset about it. For some reason, hearing those types of lessons from an adult other than mom or dad makes them sink in more.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m thrilled with how she’s doing and everything she’s learning in class. She’s on the ASD spectrum and it really has been super helpful for her.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ain't it great reliving some of life through our kids, seeing how they see and do things differently, but in many ways the same.. Sounds like she did fantastic. Great job.


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## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Ain't it great reliving some of life through our kids, seeing how they see and do things differently, but in many ways the same.. Sounds like she did fantastic. Great job.


The best day I ever had in the dojo by far was the first time I tied my daughter’s belt on her and watched her take her first class.  It sucks that she lost interest, but she’s only 7, so there’s hope.


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## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> The best day I ever had in the dojo by far was the first time I tied my daughter’s belt on her and watched her take her first class.  It sucks that she lost interest, but she’s only 7, so there’s hope.


Our son's first two birthday parties were at our Dojang. My professional (other) career and business really started taking off to the point something had to give and I closed the school a few years later. The point is I never got our son into MA as he was too young and he never has had the interest himself. My wife is a 1st degree so we have some great MA memories though. We have some great sports memories with our son. His track relay team in the 4x100 held the state speed title for a while and he played football while he was in college. He is headed to Pennsylvania on an analytics internship through the end of the upcoming NFL season so there are more memories to be made.


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## Michele123

Yesterday was weird. Not really TKD but on the way there a van tried to run me off the road. I was driving on Main Street with the van on my rear bumper so when a new lane opened to to the right, I moved over. The van pulled up next to me with the driver gesturing and then veering into my lane. I started to pull into the breakdown lane while putting on the breaks to get out of his way. He pulled over into the breakdown lane in front of me before I stopped. I turned back onto the road and drove around him but he was stopped at this point and other cars came by and passed too. I took a turn a block up and lost him. I’ve never met the driver before. I’m so confused as to what was going on and why he was trying to get me to stop. My instincts said to get away from him and so I did.  But this is a fairly public road and so unless someone was completely deranged I can’t imagine them trying anything. When I got to TKD I looked at my car. All was fine. No broken headlights or anything that might trigger a Good Samaritan to try to inform me. When I passed him after he pulled over he was gesturing again. He was trying to communicate something but I didn’t feel safe enough to find out what. I remember it was a tan van with handicap license plate for our state. He had a thin face with little hair and short facial hair. Weird stuff. 

On a happier note, I’m really enjoying the material at my new rank. It’s been a lot of fun so far. I’ve learned 3 out of 4 chunks of material for this rank. The only thing left is the pattern (then working on perfecting what I’ve just learned). So far it is all nuanced versions of precision material. I just need remember the orders and refine the techniques. I wonder if I spend too much time practicing?  The next test isn’t until the end of September. I’m going to have all my material down by then. I just like to practice enough that whatever new thing I was just shown I know really well so we can immediately jump to fixing/refining type stuff. A month before this test I was already at the point where the black belts rarely had anything to say when they went through my material with me. I know plain repetition is good, but I like to also be improving and refining. Oh well. For now I’m having fun learning new stuff. I’ll enjoy this time and try not to worry about what I’ll be doing in in a couple weeks. 

I can’t wait to get an advance rank and maybe be able to help out in my kids’ class. I miss teaching and I think it might help him keep the little kids busy if he had someone else holding pads and whatnot. Of course then I’d have to find something to do with my 2 year old. 


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## Michele123

Things have been fun these last few weeks. I have now been taught all the curriculum for my new rank. I’ve been practicing hard at home and know it pretty well. We are at the knit picking stage and I love being here and refining my techniques. Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with me because I am clearly ready to test now but the next testing cycle isn’t until September.  I get the impression that they don’t do double testing once someone is at this point in rank progression. 

So... I get two months to refine what I’ve learned. I guess that’s good, but I’m also a little disappointed. I like learning new material. It makes me wonder if I should back of on the practicing. I like doing so but now they don’t seem to know what to do with me. In talking with other students, it seems most folks rarely practice on their own unless they are about to test. I just enjoying my morning workouts so much. I do some strength and conditioning followed by stretching, followed by Taekwondo practice. But maybe I shouldn’t. Back when I studied karate, I practiced daily then too. But it was ok because they held tests every month for those that were ready to test. Rarely did anyone test two months in a row. But if someone was ready, it was a possibility. It also made it easy for some to go slower than the rest without feeling bad because only a few people tested each month. None of this everyone testing at once thing. 

Oh well. For now I’m still enjoying it so that is good. I did get to spend the second half of class learning some Taekwondo self defense. It was neat to see something that were almost identical from karate and somethings completely different.  

I suspect my progress would be slower if i didn’t have the MA background and the accompanying self-discipline that I have. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Things have been fun these last few weeks. I have now been taught all the curriculum for my new rank. I’ve been practicing hard at home and know it pretty well. We are at the knit picking stage and I love being here and refining my techniques. Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with me because I am clearly ready to test now but the next testing cycle isn’t until September.  I get the impression that they don’t do double testing once someone is at this point in rank progression.
> 
> So... I get two months to refine what I’ve learned. I guess that’s good, but I’m also a little disappointed. I like learning new material. It makes me wonder if I should back of on the practicing. I like doing so but now they don’t seem to know what to do with me. In talking with other students, it seems most folks rarely practice on their own unless they are about to test. I just enjoying my morning workouts so much. I do some strength and conditioning followed by stretching, followed by Taekwondo practice. But maybe I shouldn’t. Back when I studied karate, I practiced daily then too. But it was ok because they held tests every month for those that were ready to test. Rarely did anyone test two months in a row. But if someone was ready, it was a possibility. It also made it easy for some to go slower than the rest without feeling bad because only a few people tested each month. None of this everyone testing at once thing.
> 
> Oh well. For now I’m still enjoying it so that is good. I did get to spend the second half of class learning some Taekwondo self defense. It was neat to see something that were almost identical from karate and somethings completely different.
> 
> I suspect my progress would be slower if i didn’t have the MA background and the accompanying self-discipline that I have.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah nice, it's a credit to you that they don't know what to do with you! You've obviously progress really well and have developed dem skillz.

Two months will fly by I reckon, in my old style I graded once a year, by choice haha (maybe twice a year for the first couple). I really wanted to take the time to absorb each grade, understand what it's about, what its focus was and try to deepen my knowledge of it rather than just wanting to learn new stuff (which I also loved). And also because gradings were haaaaaard haha, and preparing for them two or three times a year would have been overkill for me!

But great to hear, and if you feel you're definitely more than ready for the new grade you could lessen the training for that (maybe in your sessions just run through some stuff very quickly as a refresher), and spend the rest doing stuff you enjoy and want to work on


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## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> Things have been fun these last few weeks. I have now been taught all the curriculum for my new rank. I’ve been practicing hard at home and know it pretty well. We are at the knit picking stage and I love being here and refining my techniques. Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with me because I am clearly ready to test now but the next testing cycle isn’t until September.  I get the impression that they don’t do double testing once someone is at this point in rank progression.
> 
> So... I get two months to refine what I’ve learned. I guess that’s good, but I’m also a little disappointed. I like learning new material. It makes me wonder if I should back of on the practicing. I like doing so but now they don’t seem to know what to do with me. In talking with other students, it seems most folks rarely practice on their own unless they are about to test. I just enjoying my morning workouts so much. I do some strength and conditioning followed by stretching, followed by Taekwondo practice. But maybe I shouldn’t. Back when I studied karate, I practiced daily then too. But it was ok because they held tests every month for those that were ready to test. Rarely did anyone test two months in a row. But if someone was ready, it was a possibility. It also made it easy for some to go slower than the rest without feeling bad because only a few people tested each month. None of this everyone testing at once thing.
> 
> Oh well. For now I’m still enjoying it so that is good. I did get to spend the second half of class learning some Taekwondo self defense. It was neat to see something that were almost identical from karate and somethings completely different.
> 
> I suspect my progress would be slower if i didn’t have the MA background and the accompanying self-discipline that I have.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


IMO just keep training.  Forget about promoting and learning new material.  Try to perfect what you know rather than learning new stuff.  We all want to learn the cool new stuff we see those above us doing at some point, but remember that perfection of material is far more important than just knowing and memorizing it.  You don’t seem like the type that’s just there to earn new belts.

I can easily relate to where you’re at and what you’re feeling right now.  I was a shodan in a very similar organization to the one I’m currently in a while back.  I know all my material for my current rank army next rank.  On paper, I’m not going to learn anything new until I’m promoted to shodan in this organization.  I’ve got more than a year before I meet the minimum class attendance requirement.  I’m currently a 2nd kyu brown belt, and the syllabi of this school and my former school at 2nd and 1st kyu are exactly the same.  Rather that asking and/or pushing to promote, I’m just trying to prefect what I know.  Doing this, I’ll easily be far better when it comes time to test for 1st kyu and shodan.  At shodan, I’ll already know about 70% of the material from my previous experience.  Doesn’t matter IMO.  It can all get better for sure.

Don’t chase rank nor new material; chase improvement.  Unless you’ve got a predetermined amount of time before you have to leave, like say you’re moving away in a year, is there really any rush to learn anything?  So much easier said than done though.  I see upper ranks doing stuff I know and really liked doing and ask myself every now and then when am I going to get to do that again too.  Then I remind myself that I’m not going to quit any time soon, so I’ll get there eventually.  Just because I won’t learn anything new syllabus-wise doesn’t mean I won’t learn anything new at all.  Every time I’m on the floor I learn something new, even if it’s something very small and feels almost insignificant.

Edit:  Honestly, at this point in my training, I feel that if I tested for shodan right now I would be good enough to pass.  That’s not being conceited or anything like that; it’s just being honest.  If I did, I’d be happy for a few days, but then I know id genuinely feel cheated.  Good enough isn’t good enough for me.  I’d much rather wear that belt and rank like I perfected it.

I could also re-join my former organization and test for shodan again within 6 months.  And I’d pass that test.  Been there and done that previously.  But what’s the point?  To wear a new belt around my waist?


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Michele123 said:


> Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with me because I am clearly ready to test now but the next testing cycle isn’t until September. I get the impression that they don’t do double testing once someone is at this point in rank progression.
> 
> So... I get two months to refine what I’ve learned. I guess that’s good, but I’m also a little disappointed. I like learning new material. It makes me wonder if I should back of on the practicing. I like doing so but now they don’t seem to know what to do with me.


This sounds like a good opportunity to forget about new material and testing to instead focus on getting better at what you have already learned. Look at each element of your repertoire and ask yourself. "if I had to use this in a fight against a skilled, tough, experienced opponent who was bigger and stronger than me, would it work?" If not, figure out how you can improve it.

I've been training martial arts for 37 years. My primary art, BJJ, is a never-ending fount of new material. What is my biggest focus in training? Refining fundamental techniques that I learned decades ago. Trust me - if you go back to your white belt curriculum, you should find details to work on.

(I am concerned if your instructors "don't know what to do with you." A good teacher should be able to easily point out a few aspects of your basic technique that you could benefit from focusing on for the next few months.)


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## Earl Weiss

Michele123 said:


> Things have been fun these last few weeks. I have now been taught all the curriculum for my new rank. I’ve been practicing hard at home and know it pretty well. We are at the knit picking stage and I love being here and refining my techniques. Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with mek



IMO testing requirements are the "Minimum" an average student needs to have proficiency with to advance.   Part of my job as an instructor is to help the student surpass their perceived potential. Say for example there is a minimum requirement that they do a jumping turning / roundhouse kick.   If they can do that, can they do a double? Triple? Break a board, 1,2, or 3 targets in a single jump?


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> Things have been fun these last few weeks. I have now been taught all the curriculum for my new rank. I’ve been practicing hard at home and know it pretty well. We are at the knit picking stage and I love being here and refining my techniques. Tonight, after going through my new material, my instructor and one of the head black belts both said they didn’t know what to do with me because I am clearly ready to test now but the next testing cycle isn’t until September.  I get the impression that they don’t do double testing once someone is at this point in rank progression.
> 
> *So... I get two months to refine what I’ve learned. I guess that’s good, but I’m also a little disappointed*. I like learning new material. It makes me wonder if I should back of on the practicing. I like doing so but now they don’t seem to know what to do with me. In talking with other students, it seems most folks rarely practice on their own unless they are about to test. I just enjoying my morning workouts so much. I do some strength and conditioning followed by stretching, followed by Taekwondo practice. But maybe I shouldn’t. Back when I studied karate, I practiced daily then too. But it was ok because they held tests every month for those that were ready to test. Rarely did anyone test two months in a row. But if someone was ready, it was a possibility. It also made it easy for some to go slower than the rest without feeling bad because only a few people tested each month. None of this everyone testing at once thing.
> 
> Oh well. For now I’m still enjoying it so that is good. I did get to spend the second half of class learning some Taekwondo self defense. It was neat to see something that were almost identical from karate and somethings completely different.
> 
> I suspect my progress would be slower if i didn’t have the MA background and the accompanying self-discipline that I have.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am in the same position.  I advanced quickly, testing every month for 4 months in a row.  This will be the first month where I am not testing.  Honestly, if I tested again, I probably would pass since I have most of the material down with more than a week to go before the next test.  But have I mastered the material? Not quite.  

For example, last week, the head instructor called out basics out of order.  The black belts and brown belts did the techniques instantly.  It took me a second or two to think about it, and in some cases, I did the wrong one.  So, when we start with basic 1 and go up, I get it right away, but not so much when they are called out of order.  Second, sometimes just to shake things up, the head instructor will have the upper belts do the forms opposite, so instead of the first move going to the left, he will say to start going to the right.  Can you do that?

Finally, I am sure there are things you can do to improve.  In my case, the head instructor allowed me, and a few other green belts to participate in a sparring class normally reserved for black and brown belts.  It was a humbling experience as the guy I was up against is one of our better fighters and has a background as a boxer before he started TKD.  So none of my combinations landed except when he let me hit him, and even then, I was a little paranoid that he was setting me up, which he did a few times.


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## _Simon_

Yep, great point what these guys said. To focus not so much on grading and new material but on becoming a better martial artist and deepening your knowledge and ability of the art. It's a big difference to focus on improvement and consolidation of what you currently know compared to learning new material!

I know that most times I do Taikyoku Ichi (the first and most basic kata in karate), I learn something new, or I find something that needs working on (transitions, foot movement, hip rotation, moving the body as one, breathing correctly etc)


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## Michele123

You all are right of course. And that was easier for me in my old style because there was so much material and refining of techniques at each rank. Here there isn’t so much. On top of that, my instructor often asks assigned black belts to knit pick (sp?) my techniques and usually they have me do something then say that I’m doing fine and they have no suggestions. It’s frustrating. The only time I get feedback is when I’m learning new material or working directly with my instructor. 

In my old style we had lots of partner drills that really tested your techniques. Not so much here. 



JR 137 said:


> Don’t chase rank nor new material; chase improvement.  Unless you’ve got a predetermined amount of time before pyou have to leave, like say you’re moving away in a year, is there really any rush to learn anything?



Well... it’s not exactly predetermined yet but my husband and I are talking about trying for another child in the near future. Once I’m pregnant I won’t have long before I’ll have to stop for safety reasons. 


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> my instructor often asks assigned black belts to knit pick (sp?) my techniques and usually they have me do something then say that I’m doing fine and they have no suggestions.



I used to get that a lot...

People generally don't like to point out flaws, and even less people like having flaws pointed out - so they'll be used to not wanting to disappoint the student.

It's taken me a while, but there are now a select group who will actually be honest with me and truly pick instead of giving it the thumbs up and saying it's fine.

One thing that got it through to a couple of people was saying something along the lines of "I know there's stuff I must be doing wrong, or at least not quite right, so tell me. Don't try to make me feel better, don't coddle it, don't try to disguise it with complements, if I wanted to just be told how great I am I'd join a support group".


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> I used to get that a lot...
> 
> People generally don't like to point out flaws, and even less people like having flaws pointed out - so they'll be used to not wanting to disappoint the student.
> 
> It's taken me a while, but there are now a select group who will actually be honest with me and truly pick instead of giving it the thumbs up and saying it's fine.
> 
> One thing that got it through to a couple of people was saying something along the lines of "I know there's stuff I must be doing wrong, or at least not quite right, so tell me. Don't try to make me feel better, don't coddle it, don't try to disguise it with complements, if I wanted to just be told how great I am I'd join a support group".



Oooh. This is good. I’d just assumed they weren’t as competent as they should be but I bet you’re right!  I’ll try that script next time. 


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## JR 137

pdg said:


> I used to get that a lot...
> 
> People generally don't like to point out flaws, and even less people like having flaws pointed out - so they'll be used to not wanting to disappoint the student.
> 
> It's taken me a while, but there are now a select group who will actually be honest with me and truly pick instead of giving it the thumbs up and saying it's fine.
> 
> One thing that got it through to a couple of people was saying something along the lines of "I know there's stuff I must be doing wrong, or at least not quite right, so tell me. Don't try to make me feel better, don't coddle it, don't try to disguise it with complements, if I wanted to just be told how great I am I'd join a support group".


I think part of it is people don’t want to criticize because they know they’ve got flaws too, and don’t want to come off as that guy who’ll pick everyone apart, yet does a lot of the same mistakes.

The seniors where I train will easily point out major flaws when asked.  Asking them for tips on how to sharpen it up takes a bit more effort, but they’re great about it.

At my former dojo, we’d periodically perform our kata in front of the entire class, and my sensei would have everyone in class make one critique.  I liked that.  Sometimes it was really hard not repeating what someone else said and/or repeating the same thing you said to others.


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## pdg

JR 137 said:


> I think part of it is people don’t want to criticize because they know they’ve got flaws too, and don’t want to come off as that guy who’ll pick everyone apart, yet does a lot of the same mistakes



I get that, and there's also the fact that the majority of people who outrank me are younger than I am.

I have almost the opposite problem though - I find it difficult to go along with the "give something good too" without feeling like it sounds extremely false. My solution of sorts is to package it like "I have/had the same problem with xyz, try this".


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## JR 137

pdg said:


> I get that, and there's also the fact that the majority of people who outrank me are younger than I am.
> 
> I have almost the opposite problem though - I find it difficult to go along with the "give something good too" without feeling like it sounds extremely false. My solution of sorts is to package it like "I have/had the same problem with xyz, try this".


When I was in studying for my masters in physical education, we were taught to say “that was pretty good; here’s how to make it even better.”  I use that a lot.  Not those exact words, but similar.  People are far more receptive to that than “here’s your mistake.”

Like you in the dojo context, I also use “I did/do the same thing.  I did/try to do this.”  That gets people to be more receptive.  It lets people know you don’t think you’re perfect and have all the answers.  And like you, I can’t bring myself to telling someone they’re doing something well when I think they suck at it.  I’ll just defer to the seniors or let them know I struggled with it too.  I struggled with quite a few things, currently struggle with other things, and will absolutely struggle with things in the future, so it’s not hard to relate when someone’s not getting something I didn’t have problems with.


----------



## Michele123

I wanted to share an update. 

After the last post my instructor started working with me himself to point out little things to adjust/fix. It’s been AWESOME. That’s totally the kind of thing I’ve been wanting. I have several things to work on now and have been doing so the last couple weeks. Some of it is getting better some of it is harder because of old muscle memory from my previous style. Anyhow, it’s really helped me to feel more enthusiastic again. 

Tonight I got to work one on one with my instructor again. He presented me with an option, but I have to choose. He said he talked to his master who suggested I double test again. So he said I can but it is up to me. There are only about 5-6 weeks left before the test. I’m confident with my current material but I’m worried the rest would feel rushed. He thinks I should and it would be no problem. Even after I reminded him that in a couple weeks I have to go back to once a week for the school year. 

Honestly, I’m not sure. If he had asked me a month ago I would have said yes. Now... I don’t know. I wish they would have tests more often then once every three months or allow for early tests occasionally. I don’t like the idea of having to go through a complete test, put on the new belt, and immediately start the next test while I’m already wiped out and thirsty. 

On the other hand, I hope to be pregnant again before the end of this school year. Starting around the 2nd or 3rd trimester I wouldn’t be able to train as hard and once the baby was born I wouldn’t be able to train for quite a while. With my husband’s job, there is no telling if I’d be able to train again or if we would move first (though I have tried to make my hubby promise not to love us with an 8 week old again). 

So. That’s where I’m at with that. 

On another note, some of the tweaks go against my old style.  But some are exactly what I should have been doing there but somehow never translated to Taekwondo. For example, stances. In the front stance, most of the weight should be on the forward leg. Well in Taekwondo, (kukkiwon) there are waking stances. They are basically shorter forward stances. For some reason I’ve always treaded them as more of a back stance in regards to the weighty distribution. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. (Such a short stance as the regular stance seems strange to me to begin with). Also, waking straight instead of a crescent throws stances off as well.  I think I’m doing better with them though because he didn’t comment on my stances tonight. I’ve been drilling them at home for two weeks since he brought it to my attention. 

The other thing I struggle with is the Taekwondo side kick meaning something different than my old style side kick. Even though it’s called a side kick in Taekwondo, it’s much more similar to a back kick from my old style.  I hear side kick and I just have this mental block and aim my foot like my old style side kick.  I’ve been drilling this at home too but have not been as successful when doing the kick inside of Taekwondo drills. 

So, that’s my long rambling post. I’ve been meaning to post for at least a week but life’s been busy. After being surprised. Y the option to double test, I decided it is high time I update my post.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I wanted to share an update.
> 
> After the last post my instructor started working with me himself to point out little things to adjust/fix. It’s been AWESOME. That’s totally the kind of thing I’ve been wanting. I have several things to work on now and have been doing so the last couple weeks. Some of it is getting better some of it is harder because of old muscle memory from my previous style. Anyhow, it’s really helped me to feel more enthusiastic again.
> 
> Tonight I got to work one on one with my instructor again. He presented me with an option, but I have to choose. He said he talked to his master who suggested I double test again. So he said I can but it is up to me. There are only about 5-6 weeks left before the test. I’m confident with my current material but I’m worried the rest would feel rushed. He thinks I should and it would be no problem. Even after I reminded him that in a couple weeks I have to go back to once a week for the school year.
> 
> Honestly, I’m not sure. If he had asked me a month ago I would have said yes. Now... I don’t know. I wish they would have tests more often then once every three months or allow for early tests occasionally. I don’t like the idea of having to go through a complete test, put on the new belt, and immediately start the next test while I’m already wiped out and thirsty.
> 
> On the other hand, I hope to be pregnant again before the end of this school year. Starting around the 2nd or 3rd trimester I wouldn’t be able to train as hard and once the baby was born I wouldn’t be able to train for quite a while. With my husband’s job, there is no telling if I’d be able to train again or if we would move first (though I have tried to make my hubby promise not to love us with an 8 week old again).
> 
> So. That’s where I’m at with that.
> 
> On another note, some of the tweaks go against my old style.  But some are exactly what I should have been doing there but somehow never translated to Taekwondo. For example, stances. In the front stance, most of the weight should be on the forward leg. Well in Taekwondo, (kukkiwon) there are waking stances. They are basically shorter forward stances. For some reason I’ve always treaded them as more of a back stance in regards to the weighty distribution. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. (Such a short stance as the regular stance seems strange to me to begin with). Also, waking straight instead of a crescent throws stances off as well.  I think I’m doing better with them though because he didn’t comment on my stances tonight. I’ve been drilling them at home for two weeks since he brought it to my attention.
> 
> The other thing I struggle with is the Taekwondo side kick meaning something different than my old style side kick. Even though it’s called a side kick in Taekwondo, it’s much more similar to a back kick from my old style.  I hear side kick and I just have this mental block and aim my foot like my old style side kick.  I’ve been drilling this at home too but have not been as successful when doing the kick inside of Taekwondo drills.
> 
> So, that’s my long rambling post. I’ve been meaning to post for at least a week but life’s been busy. After being surprised. Y the option to double test, I decided it is high time I update my post.



Ah cheers for the update . Yeah if I were in your shoes, I would just do a normal grade rather than double up. No point rushing anything and especially if you don't feel as ready as you could be. But totally up to you in the end!

 Yeah one on one time is invaluable huh! Such a great opportunity to get stuck into things very particular to what you need to work on.

That's exciting about the pregnancy later on , but yeah pace yourself in terms of training and do what you can, am sure you'll be really missing going training for a bit, but you'll be back before ya know it .

Yeah I know what you mean with the stances hehe, took me sooo long to change from the crescent style movements to straight forward! Such a hard habit to break...

That's been the same for me with regards to the side kick! I've been trialling out TKD the last 3 weeks and yes I'm used to doing the side kick karate-style, whereas it seems in TKD they do it more like a back kick. We actually drilled a defensive spinning side kick last night, took me a few gos hehe but got it okay.


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> I wanted to share an update.
> 
> After the last post my instructor started working with me himself to point out little things to adjust/fix. It’s been AWESOME. That’s totally the kind of thing I’ve been wanting. I have several things to work on now and have been doing so the last couple weeks. Some of it is getting better some of it is harder because of old muscle memory from my previous style. Anyhow, it’s really helped me to feel more enthusiastic again.
> 
> Tonight I got to work one on one with my instructor again. He presented me with an option, but I have to choose. He said he talked to his master who suggested I double test again. So he said I can but it is up to me. There are only about 5-6 weeks left before the test. I’m confident with my current material but I’m worried the rest would feel rushed. He thinks I should and it would be no problem. Even after I reminded him that in a couple weeks I have to go back to once a week for the school year.
> 
> Honestly, I’m not sure. If he had asked me a month ago I would have said yes. Now... I don’t know. I wish they would have tests more often then once every three months or allow for early tests occasionally. I don’t like the idea of having to go through a complete test, put on the new belt, and immediately start the next test while I’m already wiped out and thirsty.
> 
> On the other hand, I hope to be pregnant again before the end of this school year. Starting around the 2nd or 3rd trimester I wouldn’t be able to train as hard and once the baby was born I wouldn’t be able to train for quite a while. With my husband’s job, there is no telling if I’d be able to train again or if we would move first (though I have tried to make my hubby promise not to love us with an 8 week old again).
> 
> So. That’s where I’m at with that.
> 
> On another note, some of the tweaks go against my old style.  But some are exactly what I should have been doing there but somehow never translated to Taekwondo. For example, stances. In the front stance, most of the weight should be on the forward leg. Well in Taekwondo, (kukkiwon) there are waking stances. They are basically shorter forward stances. For some reason I’ve always treaded them as more of a back stance in regards to the weighty distribution. I didn’t even realize I was doing that. (Such a short stance as the regular stance seems strange to me to begin with). Also, waking straight instead of a crescent throws stances off as well.  I think I’m doing better with them though because he didn’t comment on my stances tonight. I’ve been drilling them at home for two weeks since he brought it to my attention.
> 
> The other thing I struggle with is the Taekwondo side kick meaning something different than my old style side kick. Even though it’s called a side kick in Taekwondo, it’s much more similar to a back kick from my old style.  I hear side kick and I just have this mental block and aim my foot like my old style side kick.  I’ve been drilling this at home too but have not been as successful when doing the kick inside of Taekwondo drills.
> 
> So, that’s my long rambling post. I’ve been meaning to post for at least a week but life’s been busy. After being surprised. Y the option to double test, I decided it is high time I update my post.



 I agree with @_Simon_ . I totally understand your concern with the upcoming pregnancy but if you rush through your belts, it will be hard to appreciate them and you will miss some quality training time. I feel like you should try to at least talk through  a plan with your spouse to better know how to proceed. I would never, never tell a student to double test, period. If you were that far advanced you began at the wrong belt to start with. IMHO. Ask yourself (and your instructor) how it would reflect on your Dojang and the other students. It is a valid question. MA is a personal journey, and it isn't. Reflect on how you would look back at double testing if you have to greatly reduce your training time and your effect on your Dojang. 
I hope you keep us updated. All the best for you and your family.


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## Michele123

Actually, you have a good point. After my first class, and due to my prior experience, my instructor didn’t want me to start at white belt. I, however, requested to start at white belt anyway.  Maybe if I had been willing to start where he wanted me to, there wouldn’t be a need for any of this double testing. There was apparently, one other student in this association that seemed to catch on as quickly as I have. The head of the association had her double-test at every test. She will be testing for black belt next month. 

Black belt has minimum time requirements built in though, so things will necessarily slow down at that point. Based purely on observation, a 1st defeee black belt here is about equivalent to a 3rd kyu in my old style, as far as how knowledgeable they are and how capable when teaching. 

The other thing that occurs to me, if we did move before I was able to return following a pregnancy, I’d have to start over at white belt, even it was another kukkiwon school, unless I have a black belt.  Something else to think about. I am torn. And honestly, flattered. But I think in the end I’ll ask my instructor what he thinks is best and defer to him. 


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## Tony Dismukes

dvcochran said:


> if you rush through your belts, it will be hard to appreciate them and you will miss some quality training time


Whey would going up two belt ranks at once cause her to miss training time (quality or otherwise)?


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## JR 137

Tony Dismukes said:


> Whey would going up two belt ranks at once cause her to miss training time (quality or otherwise)?


I was thinking the same thing.  I guess one could say that they’re not working on certain things for long enough, ie moving on from one kata to the next before the first one is done well.

I’m assuming TKD is cumulative in nature like karate is.  Even if you double promote, you’re still going to be doing the “skipped” material later on down the road.


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## pdg

JR 137 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  I guess one could say that they’re not working on certain things for long enough, ie moving on from one kata to the next before the first one is done well.
> 
> I’m assuming TKD is cumulative in nature like karate is.  Even if you double promote, you’re still going to be doing the “skipped” material later on down the road.



From a pattern/kata perspective, how long should it take?

The longest it's taken me to 'learn' one is about an hour.

To perfect one? Well, that'll never happen...


And yeah, nothing should get skipped completely, you'll still do it.


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## Tony Dismukes

JR 137 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  I guess one could say that they’re not working on certain things for long enough, ie moving on from one kata to the next before the first one is done well.
> 
> I’m assuming TKD is cumulative in nature like karate is.  Even if you double promote, you’re still going to be doing the “skipped” material later on down the road.


The idea of not training certain material because you "learned" it at an earlier belt level is pretty alien to me. As much as I enjoy learning new stuff, the bulk of my training is still focused on improving material I originally "learned" as a white belt.


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## Jaeimseu

Tony Dismukes said:


> The idea of not training certain material because you "learned" it at an earlier belt level is pretty alien to me. As much as I enjoy learning new stuff, the bulk of my training is still focused on improving material I originally "learned" as a white belt.



I think this often happens as a result of testing heavy curriculums. Each belt rank has a form, maybe one steps, self defense, drills, etc. that must be memorized. With a relatively short time between one rank and the next, lots of students don’t take time to review specific memorized material, though they would still be practicing certain skills that reappear from rank to rank. 


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## Michele123

JR 137 said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  I guess one could say that they’re not working on certain things for long enough, ie moving on from one kata to the next before the first one is done well.
> 
> I’m assuming TKD is cumulative in nature like karate is.  Even if you double promote, you’re still going to be doing the “skipped” material later on down the road.



There will be no skipped material. In order to double test (different than a karate double promotion which I only had once back in the day) I first test for the rank immediately next from what I am. Assuming I pass, then I test all over again from the beginning for the rank above that one. I need to know all the material for both ranks and I need to know it well enough to pass the same way anyone else would. I just have two tests in one night. It’s actually exhausting. I’ve done it once so far and it is much easier doing one test at a time. By the time I got to my second test I had already given it my all for the first. I still passed but it was mostly muscle memory that got me through that second test. I honestly wish there would be an option to test just one rank after six weeks rather than two test every three months. 

My personal workout at home includes me going through all my newest material daily and all my material since white belt 2x/week. I’d like to do more but there simply isn’t time for more with three little kids and a couple work-from-home jobs. However, I get the impression that few people practice much at all at home so this may be what is enabling me to appear to be able to double-test and picking up material “so fast.”


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## pdg

With our testing each test is basically everything from the previous test, plus the new stuff at the end.

So each test is progressively longer.

My next test will be effectively 9 patterns in a row, a couple probably more than once (due to lower grades testing up to their level, then standing aside for the parts that don't apply to them or leaving when their section is done), plus the same sort of smattering of curriculum material from lower grades. Drills and partner work (everything up to grade being tested) plus sparring. Oh, and a theory test - on any "expected" knowledge from white belt on up.

We're marked on everything every time, so if I totally screw up the white belt stuff I could technically fail.


Oh yeah, and if I feel like it I could hang around for half an hour or so and do kickboxing grading on the same night... Umm, maybe


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## dvcochran

Tony Dismukes said:


> Whey would going up two belt ranks at once cause her to miss training time (quality or otherwise)?


Human nature. Besides she has a big load in front of her with a child on the way. Believe me if you have not experienced it, it changes things. For the better.


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Actually, you have a good point. After my first class, and due to my prior experience, my instructor didn’t want me to start at white belt. I, however, requested to start at white belt anyway.  Maybe if I had been willing to start where he wanted me to, there wouldn’t be a need for any of this double testing. There was apparently, one other student in this association that seemed to catch on as quickly as I have. The head of the association had her double-test at every test. She will be testing for black belt next month.
> 
> Black belt has minimum time requirements built in though, so things will necessarily slow down at that point. Based purely on observation, a 1st defeee black belt here is about equivalent to a 3rd kyu in my old style, as far as how knowledgeable they are and how capable when teaching.
> 
> The other thing that occurs to me, if we did move before I was able to return following a pregnancy, I’d have to start over at white belt, even it was another kukkiwon school, unless I have a black belt.  Something else to think about. I am torn. And honestly, flattered. But I think in the end I’ll ask my instructor what he thinks is best and defer to him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If it is a reputable Dojang and you are getting Kukkiwon certificates you should not have to start back at white belt as far as belting is concerned. If I take a significant break I would have to go back to the beginning with curriculum. Just me.


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> *The other thing that occurs to me, if we did move before I was able to return following a pregnancy, I’d have to start over at white belt, even it was another kukkiwon school, unless I have a black belt.*  Something else to think about. I am torn. And honestly, flattered. But I think in the end I’ll ask my instructor what he thinks is best and defer to him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't see what is so special about a black belt that you can keep it, but if you only get to high brown, then you have to start back at the beginning.  I would check on that.  I didn't mind starting over as a white belt after 35 years away, and starting a new style, but if I had to take a break after training for, say, 18 months and I was a high brown belt, I would hope if I had to start over someplace else a year later in the same style that I could keep my old rank, even if I had to take a few months to shake off the rust.

And, fwiw, I asked my current teacher what he does with former students who make black belt, then leave for an extended period of time.  For example, young women who made black belts in the teens or early 20s who come back a decade or so later after having kids. And no, they don't get to come back as black belts.


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## Gnarlie

mrt2 said:


> I don't see what is so special about a black belt that you can keep it, but if you only get to high brown, then you have to start back at the beginning.  I would check on that.  I didn't mind starting over as a white belt after 35 years away, and starting a new style, but if I had to take a break after training for, say, 18 months and I was a high brown belt, I would hope if I had to start over someplace else a year later in the same style that I could keep my old rank, even if I had to take a few months to shake off the rust.
> 
> And, fwiw, I asked my current teacher what he does with former students who make black belt, then leave for an extended period of time.  For example, young women who made black belts in the teens or early 20s who come back a decade or so later after having kids. And no, they don't get to come back as black belts.


This is entirely dependent on the individual instructor (examiner level) and the skills of the person returning.

If they've forgotten everything, then it's better to adjust their belt grade or leave them where they are for a while.

If their theory is still there and just their body has to catch up, they will probably honour the grade.

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## JR 137

mrt2 said:


> I don't see what is so special about a black belt that you can keep it, but if you only get to high brown, then you have to start back at the beginning.  I would check on that.  I didn't mind starting over as a white belt after 35 years away, and starting a new style, but if I had to take a break after training for, say, 18 months and I was a high brown belt, I would hope if I had to start over someplace else a year later in the same style that I could keep my old rank, even if I had to take a few months to shake off the rust.
> 
> And, fwiw, I asked my current teacher what he does with former students who make black belt, then leave for an extended period of time.  For example, young women who made black belts in the teens or early 20s who come back a decade or so later after having kids. And no, they don't get to come back as black belts.


My former teacher had a great policy.  Whoever came in with experience from a different karate style and/or a substantial break in training wore a white belt for 2-3 months.  He evaluated where they were at during that period and promoted them to whatever rank he felt they were at.  Pretty much everyone agreed with his assessment in the end.  One woman from a completely different karate style stormed off because she thought she was entitled to her 3rd dan from a different organization 25 years ago.  She was told and agreed that she wouldn’t be that rank nor any black belt rank until she passed the same black belt test as everyone else going for that rank before she signed up, yet she somehow thought she should be a 3rd dan in our school.

My former teacher let people keep their old ranks he promoted them to if they had a long break in training.  They’d spend a while catching up to where they were before they left.  They wouldn’t promote to the next rank until they were ready to promote like everyone else.  He gave them that rank, so it’s not like they didn’t earn it.  If I were to rejoin his school after leaving about 18 years ago, I’m pretty sure he’d allow me wear the black belt he gave me.  I wouldn’t do it, and he’d be fine with that too.


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## Michele123

dvcochran said:


> Human nature. Besides she has a big load in front of her with a child on the way. Believe me if you have not experienced it, it changes things. For the better.



I’m not pregnant yet. We are simply hoping to achieve pregnancy by the end of this school year. We don’t plan to start trying until late winter. 



dvcochran said:


> If it is a reputable Dojang and you are getting Kukkiwon certificates you should not have to start back at white belt as far as belting is concerned. If I take a significant break I would have to go back to the beginning with curriculum. Just me.



But kukkiwon certificates are only issued for black belts. There are no colored belt kukkiwon certificates because each school is able to decide their own colors and order of colors for the colored belt ranks. That’s why getting black belt is important, for the kukkiwon certificate. 



mrt2 said:


> I don't see what is so special about a black belt that you can keep it, but if you only get to high brown, then you have to start back at the beginning.  I would check on that.  I didn't mind starting over as a white belt after 35 years away, and starting a new style, but if I had to take a break after training for, say, 18 months and I was a high brown belt, I would hope if I had to start over someplace else a year later in the same style that I could keep my old rank, even if I had to take a few months to shake off the rust.
> 
> And, fwiw, I asked my current teacher what he does with former students who make black belt, then leave for an extended period of time.  For example, young women who made black belts in the teens or early 20s who come back a decade or so later after having kids. And no, they don't get to come back as black belts.



It’s because of the kukkiwon certificate. It would be possible to pick up where I left off at another school but it would all depend on the instructor. Without the kukkiwon certificate (which doesn’t begin until 1st Dan), there are no guarantees that my rank would be acknowledged by another kukkiwon school outside of our association. 


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> But kukkiwon certificates are only issued for black belts. There are no colored belt kukkiwon certificates because each school is able to decide their own colors and order of colors for the colored belt ranks. That’s why getting black belt is important, for the kukkiwon certificate.



Pretty much irrelevant. The color of the belt may vary from school to school, but the RANK is the same. 10th geup through 1st geup.
The KKW doesn't register geup ranks in large part because it would be expensive and pointless. The vast majority of those who start will quit before they're anywhere near Dan rank, so why bother with an international registry?



> It’s because of the kukkiwon certificate. It would be possible to pick up where I left off at another school but it would all depend on the instructor. Without the kukkiwon certificate (which doesn’t begin until 1st Dan), there are no guarantees that my rank would be acknowledged by another kukkiwon school outside of our association.



So what? Most schools (all that I've personally experienced, and the vast majority, given what people post) have ways to deal with students who have prior experience. But ultimately... so what? Why is the color of the belt all that important? What matter, the color of the belt, or your knowledge of the material. 
It's better to wear a white belt and have people wonder why than to wear a black belt and have people wonder why.


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## Michele123

Well ultimately I trust my instructor’s assessment of me and told him I would do what he thought was best. 


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> I’m not pregnant yet. We are simply hoping to achieve pregnancy by the end of this school year. We don’t plan to start trying until late winter.
> 
> 
> 
> But kukkiwon certificates are only issued for black belts. There are no colored belt kukkiwon certificates because each school is able to decide their own colors and order of colors for the colored belt ranks. That’s why getting black belt is important, for the kukkiwon certificate.
> 
> 
> 
> It’s because of the kukkiwon certificate. It would be possible to pick up where I left off at another school but it would all depend on the instructor. Without the kukkiwon certificate (which doesn’t begin until 1st Dan), there are no guarantees that my rank would be acknowledged by another kukkiwon school outside of our association.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Keep up with the certificates you get for color belts. I would think that should count for something. A good instructor will see your "rough" proficiency and know whether you are truthful about your experience.


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## dvcochran

mrt2 said:


> I don't see what is so special about a black belt that you can keep it, but if you only get to high brown, then you have to start back at the beginning.  I would check on that.  I didn't mind starting over as a white belt after 35 years away, and starting a new style, but if I had to take a break after training for, say, 18 months and I was a high brown belt, I would hope if I had to start over someplace else a year later in the same style that I could keep my old rank, even if I had to take a few months to shake off the rust.
> 
> And, fwiw, I asked my current teacher what he does with former students who make black belt, then leave for an extended period of time.  For example, young women who made black belts in the teens or early 20s who come back a decade or so later after having kids. And no, they don't get to come back as black belts.


Your instructor seems in conflict with you. I fully agree with your statement about a brown belt taking a short break, coming back and shaking off the rust. I disagree with your instructor saying a BB would lose their rank. That is part of the accomplishment of acquiring the BB rank. I liken it to a scholars degree. You never lose the title. You may not be a good as you once were due to inactivity but the curve at which you would get back in form should be much quicker than someone who had not put in the time to get their BB. I have had a few students that were legitimate BB's who changed styles and wanted to start at white belt which was fine as it was their choice. It wasn't hard to tell they were experienced by anyone who worked out with them though.


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## Michele123

dvcochran said:


> Keep up with the certificates you get for color belts. I would think that should count for something. A good instructor will see your "rough" proficiency and know whether you are truthful about your experience.


There are no certificates for the colored ranks. 



dvcochran said:


> Your instructor seems in conflict with you. I fully agree with your statement about a brown belt taking a short break, coming back and shaking off the rust. I disagree with your instructor saying a BB would lose their rank. That is part of the accomplishment of acquiring the BB rank. I liken it to a scholars degree. You never lose the title. You may not be a good as you once were due to inactivity but the curve at which you would get back in form should be much quicker than someone who had not put in the time to get their BB. I have had a few students that were legitimate BB's who changed styles and wanted to start at white belt which was fine as it was their choice. It wasn't hard to tell they were experienced by anyone who worked out with them though.



This may be partially related to my situation. I hold a BB in a different style. At the tournaments and other times we are around people who don’t know me, they are confused that I am only a colored belt. My instructor had wanted to start me off at a high colored ranking because of my previous experience and the level of my techniques but I requested to start at white because I don’t know all the curriculum in this style.  I think that’s why he keeps wanting to have me double test and why he often tells the black belts to not look at my rank but to hold me to BB standards. 



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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> There are no certificates for the colored ranks.



Your school doesn't give out certificates for geup ranks? That's odd. I don't think I've ever heard of a school that didn't before this.


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## mrt2

dvcochran said:


> Your instructor seems in conflict with you. I fully agree with your statement about a brown belt taking a short break, coming back and shaking off the rust. I disagree with your instructor saying a BB would lose their rank. That is part of the accomplishment of acquiring the BB rank. I liken it to a scholars degree. You never lose the title. You may not be a good as you once were due to inactivity but the curve at which you would get back in form should be much quicker than someone who had not put in the time to get their BB. I have had a few students that were legitimate BB's who changed styles and wanted to start at white belt which was fine as it was their choice. It wasn't hard to tell they were experienced by anyone who worked out with them though.


I was a Cho Dan Bo in Tang Soo Do which, while different from my current style isn't that different from the ITF style TKD I currently study.  That rank is between 1st Gup and 1st Dan.  At my current school, that rank is called Probationary Black Belt.  Though my certificate from my old school is packed away someplace, my old school can verify my old rank.  A little over 5 months ago, I started as a white belt.  I am currently a green belt, on track  to test for 5th Gup, or high Green at the end of the month.   I have already gone past a bunch of people who were yellow and high yellow belts when I started. 

That is my teacher's philosophy.  I am fine with it for a number of reasons.  One, I still need to learn all the TKD patterns up to black belt, which is 12 to 14 forms.  In addition there are things school specific including 13 basics, 20 one steps, 6 linear forms and 20 sparring combinations.  It is very manageable to do this over a period of months, as I quickly move up the ranks. 

The other thing is, if my current teacher gave me back my old rank, it creates a problem.  At my current school, probationary black belts usually test for 1st Dan 6 months after making probationary black belt.  Rarely, students extend that to a year.  At this point, if I got my old rank back, in theory, I would be expected to test for 1st Dan by December, and I don't think I would be ready to do that yet.  So I am fine moving up the ranks fairly quickly. At my current rate, I will make 4th Gup by November, 3rd Gup by the end of the year or early next year, and Brown belt by the Spring, or about 14 to 15 months out from when I first started back.   At that point, I will need to see where I am at.  I can see a path to Brown belt, as I already can hold my own in sparring against some of the adult brown belts at our school.  But I have a lot of work to do to get to the black belt level.   My self evaluation tells me I am not there yet.


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## mrt2

Dirty Dog said:


> Your school doesn't give out certificates for geup ranks? That's odd. I don't think I've ever heard of a school that didn't before this.


My current school doesn't do it either.


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## Michele123

mrt2 said:


> I was a Cho Dan Bo in Tang Soo Do which, while different from my current style isn't that different from the ITF style TKD I currently study.  That rank is between 1st Gup and 1st Dan.  At my current school, that rank is called Probationary Black Belt.  Though my certificate from my old school is packed away someplace, my old school can verify my old rank.  A little over 5 months ago, I started as a white belt.  I am currently a green belt, on track  to test for 5th Gup, or high Green at the end of the month.   I have already gone past a bunch of people who were yellow and high yellow belts when I started.
> 
> That is my teacher's philosophy.  I am fine with it for a number of reasons.  One, I still need to learn all the TKD patterns up to black belt, which is 12 to 14 forms.  In addition there are things school specific including 13 basics, 20 one steps, 6 linear forms and 20 sparring combinations.  It is very manageable to do this over a period of months, as I quickly move up the ranks.
> 
> The other thing is, if my current teacher gave me back my old rank, it creates a problem.  At my current school, probationary black belts usually test for 1st Dan 6 months after making probationary black belt.  Rarely, students extend that to a year.  At this point, if I got my old rank back, in theory, I would be expected to test for 1st Dan by December, and I don't think I would be ready to do that yet.  So I am fine moving up the ranks fairly quickly. At my current rate, I will make 4th Gup by November, 3rd Gup by the end of the year or early next year, and Brown belt by the Spring, or about 14 to 15 months out from when I first started back.   At that point, I will need to see where I am at.  I can see a path to Brown belt, as I already can hold my own in sparring against some of the adult brown belts at our school.  But I have a lot of work to do to get to the black belt level.   My self evaluation tells me I am not there yet.



Sounds like we are in similar positions. 


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## Dirty Dog

mrt2 said:


> My current school doesn't do it either.



I'm really surprised by that. Why don't they? Seems like if you're going to have rank, it's worth a nickle to document it.


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> There are no certificates for the colored ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> This may be partially related to my situation. I hold a BB in a different style. At the tournaments and other times we are around people who don’t know me, they are confused that I am only a colored belt. My instructor had wanted to start me off at a high colored ranking because of my previous experience and the level of my techniques but I requested to start at white because I don’t know all the curriculum in this style.  I think that’s why he keeps wanting to have me double test and why he often tells the black belts to not look at my rank but to hold me to BB standards.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


So if you test as a color belt, do you automatically advance? I know certificates may seem a little cheesy for adults nowadays but the kids love them. I think they are a legitimate marker for a school and the affiliated organization. I did not start MA until my 20's and appreciated each certificate. Did your old school have certificates? I am curious how others on the forum feel?


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## Michele123

dvcochran said:


> So if you test as a color belt, do you automatically advance? I know certificates may seem a little cheesy for adults nowadays but the kids love them. I think they are a legitimate marker for a school and the affiliated organization. I did not start MA until my 20's and appreciated each certificate. Did your old school have certificates? I am curious how others on the forum feel?



No. You don’t automatically advance. However, whichever parts of your test you fail, you can try again the following week. You don’t pass until you pass every part of your test. 

My old school was a karate school, not Taekwondo. At that one, yes there were certificates. I used to hang the current one on my bedroom wall (I was a teenager at the time). When I joined this one, I didn’t even notice the lack of certificates until my second test. I have no issue not having a certificate. I guess they used to do certificates but stopped because people didn’t seem to care. 


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## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> So if you test as a color belt, do you automatically advance? I know certificates may seem a little cheesy for adults nowadays but the kids love them. I think they are a legitimate marker for a school and the affiliated organization. I did not start MA until my 20's and appreciated each certificate. Did your old school have certificates? I am curious how others on the forum feel?


We get kyu rank certificates in my organization and my former organization.  I never really cared for them.  Mainly I guess because I never really knew what to do with them.  I don’t and never did display them; I’d feel bad throwing them out for some reason, yet do I really need to keep them?

I don’t know where my old ones are from my former organization, including my 1st dan certificate.  Probably in a box somewhere in my parents’ basement, along with my high school yearbook and other stuff that wouldn’t bother me one bit if they went away.

Some people like them, and I’ve got no problem with that.  Some people display them; I’m not a hater.  To each their own. 

The only certificate I really need is my current belt around my waist during class.  Unless I’m going to an affiliated dojo or a group workout with people from different places so the instructor can know where I stand in the curriculum, I really don’t even really need my belt either.  My immediate teachers and I all know where I’m at.

Last night I took class at our founder’s dojo.  When I checked in, the woman who checked me in saw my brown belt and chuckled saying  “I’ll change your rank from white belt to brown belt in the computer” so I guess the belt is good for that too?


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Last night I took class at our founder’s dojo.  When I checked in, the woman who checked me in saw my brown belt and chuckled saying  “I’ll change your rank from white belt to brown belt in the computer” so I guess the belt is good for that too?



(Apologies for the slight threadjacking here, I won't be long!)

Ah wow, so did you train with Kaicho or Nidaime? How was it? That's so awesome that you live that close...


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## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> (Apologies for the slight threadjacking here, I won't be long!)
> 
> Ah wow, so did you train with Kaicho or Nidaime? How was it? That's so awesome that you live that close...


It went great, thanks for asking.  It was Kaicho’s class at his second dojo (not honbu).   It’s about a 2.5 hour drive.  I’m going to go to honbu sometime soon.  

The World Seido Karate Organization in New York City

It was my first class with Kaicho (other than a mass workout), so I didn’t know what to expect.  I didn’t know if he’d be a drill sergeant, hardass, etc.; if it would be a brutal workout physically, mentally, etc.

Kaicho’s a great guy.  He’s very personable, has a great sense of humor, and gets people to work hard and focus with while keeping a smile on his face and everyone else’s.  Or at least that’s how he was last night. 

Here’s an example - we had to lay down on our back, hold our arms and legs off the floor, then lift our back off the floor and hold it.  Everyone in the dojo had to count backwards from 10 in Japanese before we stopped.  There were about 25 or 30 of us in class.  I couldn’t get my back too far off the floor, so he stands right next to me and puts his foot under my back, with his heel on the floor and his toes pointed up.  He’s laughing and saying “come on, I help you out!”  Then it’s my turn to count, and of course I’ve never counted backwards in Japanese and butchered it 3 times before I got it right, and he’s laughing the entire time and saying “take your time and get it right.”  We finish, and he quietly says to me “great job not giving up.”

He was like that with everyone.  I’d imagine he’d be quite different if someone gave up, got disrespectful, etc.  And he’s probably more intense during testing 

It was a great experience.  I did a one hour general class, which had every kyu rank (no yellow belts were there) and several 5th and 6th dans, and a half hour kumite class immediately afterwards with a lot of the same people. 

Sorry for the side track


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> It went great, thanks for asking.  It was Kaicho’s class at his second dojo (not honbu).   It’s about a 2.5 hour drive.  I’m going to go to honbu sometime soon.
> 
> The World Seido Karate Organization in New York City
> 
> It was my first class with Kaicho (other than a mass workout), so I didn’t know what to expect.  I didn’t know if he’d be a drill sergeant, hardass, etc.; if it would be a brutal workout physically, mentally, etc.
> 
> Kaicho’s a great guy.  He’s very personable, has a great sense of humor, and gets people to work hard and focus with while keeping a smile on his face and everyone else’s.  Or at least that’s how he was last night.
> 
> Here’s an example - we had to lay down on our back, hold our arms and legs off the floor, then lift our back off the floor and hold it.  Everyone in the dojo had to count backwards from 10 in Japanese before we stopped.  There were about 25 or 30 of us in class.  I couldn’t get my back too far off the floor, so he stands right next to me and puts his foot under my back, with his heel on the floor and his toes pointed up.  He’s laughing and saying “come on, I help you out!”  Then it’s my turn to count, and of course I’ve never counted backwards in Japanese and butchered it 3 times before I got it right, and he’s laughing the entire time and saying “take your time and get it right.”  We finish, and he quietly says to me “great job not giving up.”
> 
> He was like that with everyone.  I’d imagine he’d be quite different if someone gave up, got disrespectful, etc.  And he’s probably more intense during testing
> 
> It was a great experience.  I did a one hour general class, which had every kyu rank (no yellow belts were there) and several 5th and 6th dans, and a half hour kumite class immediately afterwards with a lot of the same people.
> 
> Sorry for the side track



Ah wow... so jealous ;P. That sounds amazing, and yeah he truly seems like such an integrous, nice guy.

Have watched plenty of YouTube vids of him, yeah I love what he emphasises.

Yep I'd struggle too counting backwards in Japanese haha, so used to counting it normally... thanks for sharing, it's truly great to get an insight into what his classes are like.

Ah I went on that website and sent through a message asking if I could purchase some of the books in the Seido shop (as I couldn't put in the ship to Australia option), but I haven't heard back.. it was almost a month ago, but I reckon the contact form may not have worked, have had that happen before... I'll have to find a proper email address or something...


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## JR 137

_Simon_ said:


> Ah wow... so jealous ;P. That sounds amazing, and yeah he truly seems like such an integrous, nice guy.
> 
> Have watched plenty of YouTube vids of him, yeah I love what he emphasises.
> 
> Yep I'd struggle too counting backwards in Japanese haha, so used to counting it normally... thanks for sharing, it's truly great to get an insight into what his classes are like.
> 
> Ah I went on that website and sent through a message asking if I could purchase some of the books in the Seido shop (as I couldn't put in the ship to Australia option), but I haven't heard back.. it was almost a month ago, but I reckon the contact form may not have worked, have had that happen before... I'll have to find a proper email address or something...


Perhaps call or contact one of Sei Shihan Ino’s dojos?  He’s the Australia branch chief...
Seido Juku Karate in Sydney is a traditional Japanese style of karate that provides physical fitness and self defence to men, women and children of all ages and abilities.
I’m pretty sure he’s got copies.  Shipping from him would be significantly cheaper than from NYC.  I’ve met him before.  Very nice guy. And one hell of a karateka


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## _Simon_

JR 137 said:


> Perhaps call or contact one of Sei Shihan Ino’s dojos?  He’s the Australia branch chief...
> Seido Juku Karate in Sydney is a traditional Japanese style of karate that provides physical fitness and self defence to men, women and children of all ages and abilities.
> I’m pretty sure he’s got copies.  Shipping from him would be significantly cheaper than from NYC.  I’ve met him before.  Very nice guy. And one hell of a karateka



Ah now THAT'S an idea haha.. I just sent them through a message to see if they're willing to post. Ah nice kata! I've already got Karate: Technique & Spirit, and keen on reading some of the others.. cheers for that!

Okay thread continue! XD


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## Michele123

Some days I come home from training just feeling awesome. I love a good workout and feeling in tune with and master over my body. That is all. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Some days I come home from training just feeling awesome. I love a good workout and feeling in tune with and master over my body. That is all.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


[emoji120][emoji106]


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## Michele123

Some updates.

First, my four year-old passed his white belt test shortly after my last post.  He was a bit squirrelly during the test and was reprimanded for it but our instructor told me afterwards that it was normal for his age bracket and his techniques were good.  Since the white belt test and the first stripe for that age group only have a couple techniques difference, he will be testing again at the next school-wide testing. (White belt tests are generally more of a thing to get the student used to testing and are scheduled during a normal class session whenever the instructor deems the person ready.  All other tests are school-wide, once every three-months).


Speaking of testing, it is just over two weeks away from the next test.  

My 6 year-old will be testing for her first full-color belt.  It has taken her almost a year to get to this point (very young children tend to move at a much slower rate, which is why there are incremental belts, or stripes, for them).  I'm actually really impressed with the improvement I’ve seen in her over the last year.  And, while I was a bit skeptical of the incremental belts (my old style never had this) I think it has actually been great.  It allows children to get accustomed to testing and the pressure from it (my 6 year-old ran and hid at her first attempt at testing and had to wait until later to test).  It also allows them to progress at an age-appropriate speed while giving promotions to encourage them yet not promoting them to regular ranks before they are ready.

My 4 year-old will be testing for his first stripe.  I’m less convinced that he is ready.  However, seeing that these first couple of incremental ranks are largely to ease the child into things and that I was similarly unconvinced for my 6 year-old when she was testing for this rank, I’m going to trust my instructor on this one.

And I have my tests.  Since there is so much repetitive material between the next two ranks, my instructor was correct that I’ve been able to pick up both sets of material quickly.  I am less confident of the second set of material of course (since I’ve been working on it for less time), but if I don’t pass the second rank test, as long as I pass the first one and begin the second, I’ll be able to re-do the second test before the next school-wide test.  I’m mostly concerned about the board breaks (again) as I haven’t had a chance to even try them in class yet.  I’m hoping I get a chance to so I don’t have to break them cold at the test since there are two breaks for the later rank this time.  I do find it flattering when my instructor tells the black belts working with me to not pay attention to my rank but to critique me at a higher level than my rank warrants. 

Anyhow, back to practicing.  If anyone has a reliable method of convincing (or forcing) a four year old to practice with me, I’m all ears!


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## Michele123

Testing is just a few days away!  We’ve had lots of extra class sessions so people could practice. The last one my 6 & 4 year old couldn’t focus at all. I think they were responding to the high level of nervous energy. I hope that energy doesn’t mess with them during the actual test!

My instructor introduced me to something pretty cool at the last one. Taking a slow-motion video of your techniques to analyze them. Wow!  It’s really a game changer with my practice. I even did it for my 6-year old and was pleasantly surprised at how good her form looked for some of her kicks. 

Anyhow, I’m really excited about this idea because now when something doesn’t feel right I have an easier way of figuring out why. It’s really helpful with practicing my Chinning kick (which I have to break with). I have three board breaks. I have a Chinning Kick, front kick, and axe kick. The Chinning kick is the only one I’ve been struggling with. Unfortunately it comes first. If I don’t succeed with that one I fail the test and don’t even get to do the others. I feel pretty good about everything else though. There is always something to tweak and improve on of course, but the level of my techniques is (supposedly) right where it needs to be for these tests and the things I’m working on improving are needed for next time. 


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## pdg

What's a chinning kick?


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Testing is just a few days away!  We’ve had lots of extra class sessions so people could practice. The last one my 6 & 4 year old couldn’t focus at all. I think they were responding to the high level of nervous energy. I hope that energy doesn’t mess with them during the actual test!
> 
> My instructor introduced me to something pretty cool at the last one. Taking a slow-motion video of your techniques to analyze them. Wow!  It’s really a game changer with my practice. I even did it for my 6-year old and was pleasantly surprised at how good her form looked for some of her kicks.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m really excited about this idea because now when something doesn’t feel right I have an easier way of figuring out why. It’s really helpful with practicing my Chinning kick (which I have to break with). I have three board breaks. I have a Chinning Kick, front kick, and axe kick. The Chinning kick is the only one I’ve been struggling with. Unfortunately it comes first. If I don’t succeed with that one I fail the test and don’t even get to do the others. I feel pretty good about everything else though. There is always something to tweak and improve on of course, but the level of my techniques is (supposedly) right where it needs to be for these tests and the things I’m working on improving are needed for next time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best of luck for the test! Stay nice and loose and relaxed and do your best  let us know how it goes


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## Michele123

pdg said:


> What's a chinning kick?



I might be spelling it wrong but it is an upward kick that catches the person underneath the chin. To get that high, you jump off the back leg and kick with the front. It’s similar to a karate jump front kick but the motion is straight up on the kick. 


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Testing is just a few days away!  We’ve had lots of extra class sessions so people could practice. The last one my 6 & 4 year old couldn’t focus at all. I think they were responding to the high level of nervous energy. I hope that energy doesn’t mess with them during the actual test!
> 
> My instructor introduced me to something pretty cool at the last one. Taking a slow-motion video of your techniques to analyze them. Wow!  It’s really a game changer with my practice. I even did it for my 6-year old and was pleasantly surprised at how good her form looked for some of her kicks.
> 
> Anyhow, I’m really excited about this idea because now when something doesn’t feel right I have an easier way of figuring out why. It’s really helpful with practicing my Chinning kick (which I have to break with). I have three board breaks. I have a Chinning Kick, front kick, and axe kick. The Chinning kick is the only one I’ve been struggling with. Unfortunately it comes first. If I don’t succeed with that one I fail the test and don’t even get to do the others. I feel pretty good about everything else though. There is always something to tweak and improve on of course, but the level of my techniques is (supposedly) right where it needs to be for these tests and the things I’m working on improving are needed for next time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Best of luck. Let us know how it goes.


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> My instructor introduced me to something pretty cool at the last one. Taking a slow-motion video of your techniques to analyze them. Wow!  It’s really a game changer with my practice. I even did it for my 6-year old and was pleasantly surprised at how good her form looked for some of her kicks.



This really should be a common practice. I use Coach's Eye quite often. It's one thing to tell a student how to improve a technique. It's another to show them what they're doing wrong. I've told many a student "you're doing X" and been told "no I'm not" because they really don't think they are. It lets you slow mo, stop, move forward and backward, and draw on the screen. Very useful tool.


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## Mitlov

Dirty Dog said:


> This really should be a common practice. I use Coach's Eye quite often. It's one thing to tell a student how to improve a technique. It's another to show them what they're doing wrong. I've told many a student "you're doing X" and been told "no I'm not" because they really don't think they are. It lets you slow mo, stop, move forward and backward, and draw on the screen. Very useful tool.



I've used Coach's Eye to check my form with barbell lifts.  It's a fantastic tool.


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## JR 137

Dirty Dog said:


> This really should be a common practice. I use Coach's Eye quite often. It's one thing to tell a student how to improve a technique. It's another to show them what they're doing wrong. I've told many a student "you're doing X" and been told "no I'm not" because they really don't think they are. It lets you slow mo, stop, move forward and backward, and draw on the screen. Very useful tool.


I was going to suggest the same app.  Used it many times for myself and others.  By far the best and easiest to use video app I’ve seen in this regard.

There may be better ones out there that pros use, but from a price and ease of use standpoint, I haven’t seen one.


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## Michele123

The little kid class had their test. My daughter (6) did an amazing job. It is incredible to me to see the progress she has made in less than a year. She earned her orange belt, the first full rank after white (for the real little kids the ranks are split into increments m. But they have to do everything the big kids for their full ranks). 

My son (4) didn’t do as well. He did ok on most of his stuff but he had trouble being still during the in-between times and he completely forgot his pattern (only 8 moves). So he didn’t pass tonight. He will get a second chance to re-Test during class tomorrow night. 

My test is in just an hour and I’ve never been so nervous for a test. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> The little kid class had their test. My daughter (6) did an amazing job. It is incredible to me to see the progress she has made in less than a year. She earned her orange belt, the first full rank after white (for the real little kids the ranks are split into increments m. But they have to do everything the big kids for their full ranks).
> 
> My son (4) didn’t do as well. He did ok on most of his stuff but he had trouble being still during the in-between times and he completely forgot his pattern (only 8 moves). So he didn’t pass tonight. He will get a second chance to re-Test during class tomorrow night.
> 
> My test is in just an hour and I’ve never been so nervous for a test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Well done to your daughter, that's fantastic!
And yeah that's good your other little one can retest, good chance to learn perseverance ay, hopefully he wasn't too upset.

Best of luck, you'll be fine! You're probably midway through it now anyways, but give it your all and stay relaxed, breathe deeply


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## Michele123

I forgot to add, my son (4) took his lack of passing like a champ. He was very disappointed but didn’t let it show until he got out of the gym and kind of fell into DH. DH gave him a big hug, then he came up to me for a big hug and then he had to hurry down to bow out. He was very sad and sort of crying when we talked afterwards but his biggest concern was that he didn’t want DD to get even further ahead of him. When I explained that he would get to try again tomorrow night, he visibly brightened. He was still disappointed but more ok with things. 

————

I had my test a couple hours ago. I was a bundle of nerves all day. I was especially worried about the Chinning kick break I had to do for the blue belt. I couldn’t believe how nervous I felt. It was crazy. Yet, once the test began I felt unnaturally calm. It was so weird. It reminded me of my days in theater. Opening night. You prepared hard for this day but while waiting for the curtain to go up you are so nervous and excited and nervous. You wonder how things will go and try not to obsess. Instead, taking deep breaths you try to clear mind and not fixate on parts of the show to come. Finally it’s time and the curtain goes up. As if by magic, the nerves calm and your body & voice act on their own accord. All that practice paid off. The opening show goes without a hitch. 

That’s basically how things were for me tonight. I couldn’t believe how nervous I felt from the time my kids’ test ended to the time mine started. Yet, once it started I no longer felt nervous. Everything went smoothly. I had no real mistakes (obviously there is always room for improvement but not as the test was concerned) for my 5th gup test and one for my 4th gup test. I basically flowed two moves together when there was supposed to be a slight pause between them. 

My forms went off without a hitch. I even got all my stances correct. I was a little worried as I’d only learned the form for 4th gup three weeks ago today. 

The breaking!  So for 5th gup I had to do a Chinning kick break. Apparently I actually get a choice between a Chinning kick and an axe kick but they had forgotten to tell me this. Since I had an axe kick as part of my 4th gup Test, I went ahead and chose the Chinning kick for my 5th gup anyway. Even though that is the part I was most concerned about. I don’t know how other schools do it, but for breaking at tests, you do a practice kick to measure distance and board placement and stuff. The holder(s) will only hold onto one side of the board during this practice so the board can easily move and not break. After this they will hold both sides of the hoard and brace it. Well, somehow, when I did my practice Chinning kick, I managed to break the board and send part of it flying across the room (hitting a 2nd Dan on the head)!  I was in shock that it broke so easily, and worried about hitting that 2nd Dan. Apparently that is a harder way to break a board so it counted as my break and the 2nd dan was very gracious about getting hit. Supposedly it is part of the hazards of being a black belt. My break for 4th gup was a front kick, turn, axe kick. I made sure not to use full power during the practice for that one. I nailed it my first try though. It always amazes me how easily the board breaks. I always think I gotta put a lot of force into it, but then it breaks so easily. Maybe because I’m trying so hard. 

Anyhow, I’m very pleased with how the test went and feel really good about things. I’m especially pleased with myself for having not only succeeded with the Chinning kick break, but also for having broken it during the practice kick!


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## Dirty Dog

Michele123 said:


> Well, somehow, when I did my practice Chinning kick, I managed to break the board and send part of it flying across the room (hitting a 2nd Dan on the head)!  I was in shock that it broke so easily, and worried about hitting that 2nd Dan. Apparently that is a harder way to break a board so it counted as my break



It's called a speed break. Basically, you strike with enough speed and power to break the target before it has a chance to move away from the impact.
Holding one edge makes it significantly more difficult. Holding no edge makes it even more difficult. Congratulations on a difficult break.


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## _Simon_

Dude! That's amazing, WELL DONE! Sounds like you nailed the grading, and your break went awesome. So cool that it broke on the practice run! Shows you knew the correct technique ay 

That's really great how your 4 year old responded, of course he'll be upset but it's cool he was okay with trying again.

And it's funny that! How the nerves can really be playing up, then upon starting there's a real calm. Overthinking really spirals things!

Congrats Michele, super happy for ya


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> The little kid class had their test. My daughter (6) did an amazing job. It is incredible to me to see the progress she has made in less than a year. She earned her orange belt, the first full rank after white (for the real little kids the ranks are split into increments m. But they have to do everything the big kids for their full ranks).
> 
> *My son (4) didn’t do as well. He did ok on most of his stuff but he had trouble being still during the in-between times and he completely forgot his pattern (only 8 moves). So he didn’t pass tonight. He will get a second chance to re-Test during class tomorrow night. *
> 
> My test is in just an hour and I’ve never been so nervous for a test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My school also has a little ninjas program, but honestly, I haven't seen a child under 6 and very few under age 8 that showed any kind of skill in TKD.  4 is kind of young for something like a TKD test.  I know TKD allows children as young as 4 to train, but honestly, I don't think they are prepared physically or mentally.  At 4, most kids are just beginning to learn to ride a bicycle.  Most kids haven't learned to read yet, and don't even know how to write their own names yet.  And, motor skills are still developing.  This isn't a criticism of you, but if it were me, I think I would let my kids get through pre school and kindergarden before starting them out in a martial arts program.


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## Michele123

mrt2 said:


> My school also has a little ninjas program, but honestly, I haven't seen a child under 6 and very few under age 8 that showed any kind of skill in TKD.  4 is kind of young for something like a TKD test.  I know TKD allows children as young as 4 to train, but honestly, I don't think they are prepared physically or mentally.  At 4, most kids are just beginning to learn to ride a bicycle.  Most kids haven't learned to read yet, and don't even know how to write their own names yet.  And, motor skills are still developing.  This isn't a criticism of you, but if it were me, I think I would let my kids get through pre school and kindergarden before starting them out in a martial arts program.



I would agree as far as the skill is concerned. That is why there are so many incremental tests for that age group. My son was essentially testing for a level of white belt. And he is quite proficient in bike riding (no training wheels) thank you. He can write his first name and has completed a year of preschool (he is in his second year). 

Several of or better black belts started TKD at 4. Yes they aren’t going to be very skilled at that age, but learning the general movements and working on them over the course of many years makes a big difference in the type of BB, at least from what I’ve seen in our association. They just seem to have a deeper understanding and comfort level with the techniques. 

Until they are 7, they are not allowed to progress beyond 7th gup anyway.  Though I have yet to see someone under 7 actually get to 7th gup. My daughter (6.5) is the first in our school that I’ve seen actually get to 8th gup. All the other under-7’s I’ve seen only get a few of the incremental white belt ranks before they get to the 7 & up class. 

With my daughter in the class, my son spent 8 months watching the class from the sidelines, anxious to turn four so he could join the class. When he did, the instructor expressed amazement at his ability and level of technique for his age. Apparently he picked up some things just watching. I believe allowing him to start now is good for him. While he has the interest and desire (and natural aggression) we are letting him take TKD. The benefits may look slightly different than in older children but they are still there. 

Finally, the ability to loose graciously, at any age but especially 4, is invaluable. 


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## pdg

mrt2 said:


> My school also has a little ninjas program, but honestly, I haven't seen a child under 6 and very few under age 8 that showed any kind of skill in TKD.  4 is kind of young for something like a TKD test.  I know TKD allows children as young as 4 to train, but honestly, I don't think they are prepared physically or mentally.  At 4, most kids are just beginning to learn to ride a bicycle.  Most kids haven't learned to read yet, and don't even know how to write their own names yet.  And, motor skills are still developing.  This isn't a criticism of you, but if it were me, I think I would let my kids get through pre school and kindergarden before starting them out in a martial arts program.



My daughter started just before she was 4 (like a month before ) in the same sort of thing.

Usually, kids aren't allowed to join the junior classes until they're 7, but having done the 2 years and got her baby black (and white) belt she joined the junior class around her 6th birthday.

It definitely helped - while she's still not exactly skilled she's technically better than 7-9 year olds that have just started.

The next restriction is she can't go past 6th kup until she's at least 9.


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## WaterGal

mrt2 said:


> My school also has a little ninjas program, but honestly, I haven't seen a child under 6 and very few under age 8 that showed any kind of skill in TKD.  4 is kind of young for something like a TKD test.  I know TKD allows children as young as 4 to train, but honestly, I don't think they are prepared physically or mentally.  At 4, most kids are just beginning to learn to ride a bicycle.  Most kids haven't learned to read yet, and don't even know how to write their own names yet.  And, motor skills are still developing.  This isn't a criticism of you, but if it were me, I think I would let my kids get through pre school and kindergarden before starting them out in a martial arts program.



Ideally, I think, a martial arts class for kids that age will teach them those preparatory skills. Developing basic motor skills, teaching them how to stand in line and follow directions etc, should be a big part of the program for that age group. It should be just as much of a focus as any actual TKD techniques. Or perhaps more properly, the TKD techniques can be a fun vehicle for them to learn those skills.

I've been teaching a 4-5 year olds class for about 4 or 5 years now, and probably about half the kids end up moving up to the older kids' class in time. They don't start out with great skills, but by the time they move up, they're ahead of their same-age peers who started at 6 or 7. And they have fun, get exercise, learn something, make friends... I think that's the important part.


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> I would agree as far as the skill is concerned. That is why there are so many incremental tests for that age group. My son was essentially testing for a level of white belt. And he is quite proficient in bike riding (no training wheels) thank you. He can write his first name and has completed a year of preschool (he is in his second year).
> 
> Several of or better black belts started TKD at 4. Yes they aren’t going to be very skilled at that age, but learning the general movements and working on them over the course of many years makes a big difference in the type of BB, at least from what I’ve seen in our association. They just seem to have a deeper understanding and comfort level with the techniques.
> 
> Until they are 7, they are not allowed to progress beyond 7th gup anyway.  Though I have yet to see someone under 7 actually get to 7th gup. My daughter (6.5) is the first in our school that I’ve seen actually get to 8th gup. All the other under-7’s I’ve seen only get a few of the incremental white belt ranks before they get to the 7 & up class.
> 
> *With my daughter in the class, my son spent 8 months watching the class from the sidelines, anxious to turn four so he could join the class. When he did, the instructor expressed amazement at his ability and level of technique for his age. *Apparently he picked up some things just watching. I believe allowing him to start now is good for him. While he has the interest and desire (and natural aggression) we are letting him take TKD. The benefits may look slightly different than in older children but they are still there.
> 
> Finally, the ability to loose graciously, at any age but especially 4, is invaluable.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You have been encouraging of my efforts at age 53 to take up MA, so in I say this with respect.  On this issue we disagree. 

Frankly, unless your son is some kind of prodigy, there is no such thing as good TKD technique for a 4 year old.   If you have good technique, it is good whatever age you are.  And if you have bad technique, then you should not make excuses. (and fwiw, I am completely aware that the same issue comes up with old age.  I cannot kick as high as a 16 year old, and probably never will.)

I have seen my school's little ninja's program, and it is mostly TKD themed games.  It is a valuable source of revenue for my TKD teacher, and as WaterGal said, a way to ease kids into the regular TKD program, which starts around age 7, which in my mind is still pretty young.  From what I see, the threshold where you really see crisp technique is around age 10.  And, like at your school, there is a small cohort, maybe 5 or 6 teenage black belts who started as little kids who are now 2nd Dans that have really impressive technique. 

That said, I still don't see much advantage to starting kids really early.  After starting TKD in March, a woman I work with started her 12 year old in TKD about 3 months ago.  The kid is kind of straddling the older kids and adults class, and has shown some real dedication.  He just made yellow belt. (8th gup in our system) And, I say this with no malice or bias.  His kicks are already better than a lot of 8 to 10 year olds who are supposedly much more advanced.   He did free sparring against a brown belt and held his own. He doesn't yet know all the forms, but he will learn those quickly and will pass up a lot of kids just 1 or 2 years younger than him who have been doing this for 4 years or more.  Now, for sure, he still has some work to do on his punches, blocks, stances, but if he sticks with it, he will be a black belt by the time he is 15, and you won't be able to tell the difference between him, and some 15 year old who started at age 4.


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## pdg

mrt2 said:


> You have been encouraging of my efforts at age 53 to take up MA, so in I say this with respect.  On this issue we disagree.
> 
> Frankly, unless your son is some kind of prodigy, there is no such thing as good TKD technique for a 4 year old.   If you have good technique, it is good whatever age you are.  And if you have bad technique, then you should not make excuses. (and fwiw, I am completely aware that the same issue comes up with old age.  I cannot kick as high as a 16 year old, and probably never will.)
> 
> I have seen my school's little ninja's program, and it is mostly TKD themed games.  It is a valuable source of revenue for my TKD teacher, and as WaterGal said, a way to ease kids into the regular TKD program, which starts around age 7, which in my mind is still pretty young.  From what I see, the threshold where you really see crisp technique is around age 10.  And, like at your school, there is a small cohort, maybe 5 or 6 teenage black belts who started as little kids who are now 2nd Dans that have really impressive technique.
> 
> That said, I still don't see much advantage to starting kids really early.  After starting TKD in March, a woman I work with started her 12 year old in TKD about 3 months ago.  The kid is kind of straddling the older kids and adults class, and has shown some real dedication.  He just made yellow belt. (8th gup in our system) And, I say this with no malice or bias.  His kicks are already better than a lot of 8 to 10 year olds who are   He did free sparring against a brown belt and held his own. He doesn't yet know all the forms, but he will learn those quickly and will pass up a lot of kids just 1 or 2 years younger than him who have been doing this for 4 years or more.  Now, for sure, he still has some work to do on his punches, blocks, stances, but if he sticks with it, he will be a black belt by the time he is 15, and you won't be able to tell the difference between him, and some 15 year old who started at age 4.



I think a lot of that depends on the individual rather than the age they started or how long they've been practicing.

I know I made a comparison with my daughter, but generally I don't like comparisons because it's "about the individual journey" 

That said, she's pretty much the only one in her age group that can do a turning kick with anything close to correct posture (the others do some sort of vertical sweep). A little of that is the time she's spent, a little is that I show her too (and other parents really don't) but mostly it's her wanting to do it right.

There are teenagers in my school who have been practicing 5 years who are well above others of the same age that started at 4-7, and the opposite is also true.

There's also me, at 41 with 2 1/2 years experience who can run rings in every measurable way around early-mid 20s with 15 years experience. I guess I put my hobby at a higher priority than they do... 

Then there's a few early 20s who can absolutely toy with me if they so desire  They've been practicing since their early years and the level of experience really shows.

So really, some will get a lot out of starting young, some won't. Some will start later and quickly equal or overtake some who started young, some won't. Some (like me, and from what I've seen, you) will start much later and put a lot into it from personal desire, some will just keep turning up and going through the motions from some form of strange feeling that they should...


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## Michele123

mrt2 said:


> You have been encouraging of my efforts at age 53 to take up MA, so in I say this with respect.  On this issue we disagree.
> 
> Frankly, unless your son is some kind of prodigy, there is no such thing as good TKD technique for a 4 year old.   If you have good technique, it is good whatever age you are.  And if you have bad technique, then you should not make excuses. (and fwiw, I am completely aware that the same issue comes up with old age.  I cannot kick as high as a 16 year old, and probably never will.)
> 
> I have seen my school's little ninja's program, and it is mostly TKD themed games.  It is a valuable source of revenue for my TKD teacher, and as WaterGal said, a way to ease kids into the regular TKD program, which starts around age 7, which in my mind is still pretty young.  From what I see, the threshold where you really see crisp technique is around age 10.  And, like at your school, there is a small cohort, maybe 5 or 6 teenage black belts who started as little kids who are now 2nd Dans that have really impressive technique.
> 
> That said, I still don't see much advantage to starting kids really early.  After starting TKD in March, a woman I work with started her 12 year old in TKD about 3 months ago.  The kid is kind of straddling the older kids and adults class, and has shown some real dedication.  He just made yellow belt. (8th gup in our system) And, I say this with no malice or bias.  His kicks are already better than a lot of 8 to 10 year olds who are supposedly much more advanced.   He did free sparring against a brown belt and held his own. He doesn't yet know all the forms, but he will learn those quickly and will pass up a lot of kids just 1 or 2 years younger than him who have been doing this for 4 years or more.  Now, for sure, he still has some work to do on his punches, blocks, stances, but if he sticks with it, he will be a black belt by the time he is 15, and you won't be able to tell the difference between him, and some 15 year old who started at age 4.



I think the difference is that you are looking for adult techniques from kids. There is a progression in technique. A white belt being graded is not expected to have the form and power of a black belt. 

A 4-year old white belt testing for another level of white belt is expected to have the basic motions down. What surprised our instructor is that my son, on his first try, got the basics of a roundhouse down, I.e. turning his hip over as he came around to kick. The instructor hadn’t demonstrated it for him yet. My son knew what it was and how to turn his hip over simply from watching. 

The first couple ranks, both for child and adult, are mostly about learning the basic motions. That’s what the young kids learn. It gives them a good foundation for later. Our little kid class isn’t just a bunch of games (though occasionally there are games during warmups).  They certainly won’t achieve black belt at this age (nor much beyond white) but they learn the basic motions, kicks, etc. they learn the structure of a class, etc. it’s not to say the little kid class is necessary by any means. But I don’t think it is anywhere near harmful and I do think it can be helpful. 

I’m more bothered by “junior black belts” than little kid classes. 


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## dvcochran

mrt2 said:


> My school also has a little ninjas program, but honestly, I haven't seen a child under 6 and very few under age 8 that showed any kind of skill in TKD.  4 is kind of young for something like a TKD test.  I know TKD allows children as young as 4 to train, but honestly, I don't think they are prepared physically or mentally.  At 4, most kids are just beginning to learn to ride a bicycle.  Most kids haven't learned to read yet, and don't even know how to write their own names yet.  And, motor skills are still developing.  This isn't a criticism of you, but if it were me, I think I would let my kids get through pre school and kindergarden before starting them out in a martial arts program.



I would take children as young a three years old after a one on one screening. Yes it was somewhat subjective but it was based on experience. You just cannot expect every child that young to progress the same. I was very adamant with the parents that they would not nor be expected to progress at a "set" standard. I take advantage of each child's learning ability and maturity. My youngest Junior AAU gold medalist was Mikey Hickerson who was five at the time. He could set down and have a conversation better than many adults in class. His ability to absorb and retain information is mind boggling. Mikey is about 38 years old now and graduated with honors from Brown University and is a nuclear engineer. Not surprising. 
But I digress, my point is a knowledgeable instructor will interface with the parents regularly and let them know how their child is doing, making sure not to draw comparisons from another child. It is a process and should not be left up to the results of several minutes during a testing at that age. For me, it doesn't really matter how well they do at that age until they get to green belt, where the comparison with other students can really surface. If a kid is struggling, that is the time when an instructor really earns their keep, assuming they choose to teach children.


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## CB Jones

@Michele123

I started my son at 4 years old 9 years ago....and its has been great watching him develop over the years.  We started letting him compete locally at 5 and went from there.

I wouldn't trade the last 9 years for anything...lot of money spent but well worth it.  Enjoy it while youcan....when they turn 13 most days you want to choke them to death....lol.

I might be biased and wrong....but I really believe starting them early helps.  It just makes the techniques more natural for them.


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## Michele123

I practiced with my son today a bit. He actually does know his pattern. I was surprised. There was turn he hesitates on and second guesses himself but otherwise he knew it. I guess he had just gotten nervous last night. Tonight he worked on it in class then when class was over he got to retest. He did great!  He earned his first stripe on his white belt (horizontal stripe so a whole new belt). 

He was beaming. I love that’s he learning to deal with disappointment, loosing, and perseverance. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I practiced with my son today a bit. He actually does know his pattern. I was surprised. There was turn he hesitates on and second guesses himself but otherwise he knew it. I guess he had just gotten nervous last night. Tonight he worked on it in class then when class was over he got to retest. He did great!  He earned his first stripe on his white belt (horizontal stripe so a whole new belt).
> 
> He was beaming. I love that’s he learning to deal with disappointment, loosing, and perseverance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Amazing! Well done little kickin' dude! For sure, what a beautiful lesson he's learned  (and good on you for being so encouraging and giving him the opportunity to learn that)


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## _Simon_

Hahaha..

This fella's gettin around!

Not really relevant to the thread, but points for tryin!


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## Michele123

Some exciting (to me) things. So now that I’m at 4th gup, I’m eligible for a bit more participation. 

First, I’m allowed to help out in the little kids’ class (basically just holding pads and stuff but still cool). I’m excited about this one because I’m there anyway since my older two kids are in the class and I think holding pads will be helpful in my own learning as I’ll have to learn the drills from the other side. 

Second, Demo team tryouts are coming up and for the first time I’m eligible to try out. (Minimum tank of 4th gup). It looks like a lot of fun plus some extra practice since practices are outside of normal class time. Tryouts are in a couple weeks so we will see if I make it. The Demo team is mostly for marketing but I think it’ll be a lot of fun, plus I’ll get to meet students from other schools.  

Class-wise I’m currently working on my new pattern and on a new chuck pattern.  Now that it’s getting cold out, I don’t really have a place at home I can easily practice my chucks with them in hand, so I practice the moves without actual chucks in hand. That helps me memorize the sequence of movements but it just isn’t the same. Does anyone have any tips for practicing chucks at home, inside, when the rooms are too small?


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Some exciting (to me) things. So now that I’m at 4th gup, I’m eligible for a bit more participation.
> 
> First, I’m allowed to help out in the little kids’ class (basically just holding pads and stuff but still cool). I’m excited about this one because I’m there anyway since my older two kids are in the class and I think holding pads will be helpful in my own learning as I’ll have to learn the drills from the other side.
> 
> Second, Demo team tryouts are coming up and for the first time I’m eligible to try out. (Minimum tank of 4th gup). It looks like a lot of fun plus some extra practice since practices are outside of normal class time. Tryouts are in a couple weeks so we will see if I make it. The Demo team is mostly for marketing but I think it’ll be a lot of fun, plus I’ll get to meet students from other schools.
> 
> Class-wise I’m currently working on my new pattern and on a new chuck pattern.  Now that it’s getting cold out, I don’t really have a place at home I can easily practice my chucks with them in hand, so I practice the moves without actual chucks in hand. That helps me memorize the sequence of movements but it just isn’t the same. Does anyone have any tips for practicing chucks at home, inside, when the rooms are too small?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's awesome! You'll love helping out in the kids class, I know I was stoked at 4th Kyu when my instructor asked if I wanted to help out, its alot of fun .

Being part of a demo team would be great fun, and good experience too, go for it!


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## Michele123

So today I got to help the little kids class for the first time. I worked with two brothers who are no-belts. Things have changed so much since the 1990’s!  When I used to help with the kids class in my old dojo you were allowed to physically position the kids how they were to be and move their arms/legs for them so they could feel how it should. After a few reps they figured out to do it themselves (usually). In today’s society I figured it’s probably a no-no.  I was to hold pads and help them work on 5 kicks, starting with a front kick (just the basic movement, they didn’t have to have toes pulled back). I spent most of my time with them on front kick. I kept having to remind them to get in fighting stance when it was their turn and talk them through hands up, right leg back. But even that wasn’t enough to get them in the right position. Even pointing at their right leg or doing it myself yielded no results. When they finally caught on to that I had them kick forward and Land forward. Nope. Couldn’t do that. Kicked crooked and landed with legs twisted. Then asked them to get back in fighting stance to try again and they’d forgotten how!  Now start the whole crazy thing over. 

My kids were tired after class so we didn’t stick around but I plan to ask my instructor for tips tomorrow night and if we are allowed to physically position kids. Tonight was frustrating. I’ve never had such trouble teaching little kids before. I have even more respect for my instructor and how he is able to actually teach these kids techniques. 


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Some exciting (to me) things. So now that I’m at 4th gup, I’m eligible for a bit more participation.
> 
> First, I’m allowed to help out in the little kids’ class (basically just holding pads and stuff but still cool). I’m excited about this one because I’m there anyway since my older two kids are in the class and I think holding pads will be helpful in my own learning as I’ll have to learn the drills from the other side.
> 
> Second, Demo team tryouts are coming up and for the first time I’m eligible to try out. (Minimum tank of 4th gup). It looks like a lot of fun plus some extra practice since practices are outside of normal class time. Tryouts are in a couple weeks so we will see if I make it. The Demo team is mostly for marketing but I think it’ll be a lot of fun, plus I’ll get to meet students from other schools.
> 
> Class-wise I’m currently working on my new pattern and on a new chuck pattern.  Now that it’s getting cold out, I don’t really have a place at home I can easily practice my chucks with them in hand, so I practice the moves without actual chucks in hand. That helps me memorize the sequence of movements but it just isn’t the same. Does anyone have any tips for practicing chucks at home, inside, when the rooms are too small?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Great news. It is exciting to hear about your progress and hopeful introduction to the demo team!


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> So today I got to help the little kids class for the first time. I worked with two brothers who are no-belts. Things have changed so much since the 1990’s!  When I used to help with the kids class in my old dojo you were allowed to physically position the kids how they were to be and move their arms/legs for them so they could feel how it should. After a few reps they figured out to do it themselves (usually). In today’s society I figured it’s probably a no-no.  I was to hold pads and help them work on 5 kicks, starting with a front kick (just the basic movement, they didn’t have to have toes pulled back). I spent most of my time with them on front kick. I kept having to remind them to get in fighting stance when it was their turn and talk them through hands up, right leg back. But even that wasn’t enough to get them in the right position. Even pointing at their right leg or doing it myself yielded no results. When they finally caught on to that I had them kick forward and Land forward. Nope. Couldn’t do that. Kicked crooked and landed with legs twisted. Then asked them to get back in fighting stance tIt o try again and they’d forgotten how!  Now start the whole crazy thing over.
> 
> My kids were tired after class so we didn’t stick around but I plan to ask my instructor for tips tomorrow night and if we are allowed to physically position kids. Tonight was frustrating. I’ve never had such trouble teaching little kids before. I have even more respect for my instructor and how he is able to actually teach these kids techniques.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Teaching is a process just like learning a new technique is. Do you have mirrors in your dojo/dojang? I am certain they are the best learning tool in a room. Being able to adjust is helpful but when you tell a person to watch and they have to visualize the move it greatly helps the learning process. Break the technique into small pieces and have them watch you then themselves do the small piece. Learning any MA is much about repetition so don't be surprised when someone doesn't get a move the 1st, 2nd... 10th time. It is just part of it.


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## pdg

Michele123 said:


> When I used to help with the kids class in my old dojo you were allowed to physically position the kids how they were to be and move their arms/legs for them so they could feel how it should. After a few reps they figured out to do it themselves (usually). In today’s society I figured it’s probably a no-no.



Depends.

On signing up to the school we attend part of the disclaimer specifically mentions that physical contact is to be expected.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> So today I got to help the little kids class for the first time. I worked with two brothers who are no-belts. Things have changed so much since the 1990’s!  When I used to help with the kids class in my old dojo you were allowed to physically position the kids how they were to be and move their arms/legs for them so they could feel how it should. After a few reps they figured out to do it themselves (usually). In today’s society I figured it’s probably a no-no.  I was to hold pads and help them work on 5 kicks, starting with a front kick (just the basic movement, they didn’t have to have toes pulled back). I spent most of my time with them on front kick. I kept having to remind them to get in fighting stance when it was their turn and talk them through hands up, right leg back. But even that wasn’t enough to get them in the right position. Even pointing at their right leg or doing it myself yielded no results. When they finally caught on to that I had them kick forward and Land forward. Nope. Couldn’t do that. Kicked crooked and landed with legs twisted. Then asked them to get back in fighting stance to try again and they’d forgotten how!  Now start the whole crazy thing over.
> 
> My kids were tired after class so we didn’t stick around but I plan to ask my instructor for tips tomorrow night and if we are allowed to physically position kids. Tonight was frustrating. I’ve never had such trouble teaching little kids before. I have even more respect for my instructor and how he is able to actually teach these kids techniques.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ahhhh yep, I know that feeling XD. It is tricky, but it is a matter of finding out the best the way that particular child learns and processes things. Some children it's really helped to reposition their hand/arm/fist physically, other times through me standing directly in front of them and demonstrating the technique like a mirror to them helped. Others understand more verbally. It's a fine art hehe. But you'll get the hang of it.

And remember, they are young kids . We can't expect them to absolutely perfectly nail a technique, so I simply make sure that they have moved in a slight direction of better technique and really praise that, while letting them know what to focus or work on. Some kid's have great power and spirit, so I really praise that whilst getting them focusing on their technique. Others have great technique which I let them know about, but then try to push them further to add power and 'oompfh'.


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## WaterGal

Michele123 said:


> When I used to help with the kids class in my old dojo you were allowed to physically position the kids how they were to be and move their arms/legs for them so they could feel how it should. After a few reps they figured out to do it themselves (usually). In today’s society I figured it’s probably a no-no



Our general rule for TKD is that positioning a person is okay, as long as you 1) tell them before you touch them, and 2) touch at the elbow/knee or below (so, moving a knee or foot is okay, but don't touch a child's thigh or hip).



> I was to hold pads and help them work on 5 kicks, starting with a front kick (just the basic movement, they didn’t have to have toes pulled back). I spent most of my time with them on front kick. I kept having to remind them to get in fighting stance when it was their turn and talk them through hands up, right leg back. But even that wasn’t enough to get them in the right position. Even pointing at their right leg or doing it myself yielded no results. When they finally caught on to that I had them kick forward and Land forward. Nope. Couldn’t do that. Kicked crooked and landed with legs twisted. Then asked them to get back in fighting stance to try again and they’d forgotten how!  Now start the whole crazy thing over.



With totally inexperienced kids, this kind of thing isn't uncommon.

I find it helpful to teach using different modalities; so when I'm first teaching a technique I'll explain what we're doing in simple terms (verbal instruction), while demonstrating it (visual instruction), and then have them do it (kinesthetic instruction) while I also do it with them standing in front of them. If they still can't get it at all, or sometimes if they need a bit of a stance correction, I'll try positioning them.

If they're making a bunch of different mistakes, don't give them every possible correction - that's too much info for one day, and maybe too much info for their rank level. Focus on one or two things they need to work on, and let the rest go for now. If they stick around, there will be plenty more classes for them to work on the other things. The goal for today isn't perfection, it's improvement.

Praise anything and everything they do well, even if it's "wow, that was a loud yell!" or "that was good focus that time!". Offer more praise than correction, try for at least a 2-to-1 ratio. That will encourage them to continue with the things they are doing well, and help keep them from getting discouraged.

Lots of repetition. Sometimes, they just need to do the kick badly a bunch of times before they can get better at it. That's okay.


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## Michele123

I got to help out with the little kids class again. This time I got the kids with the one stripe on their white belt (meaning they are 1/3 of the way through the material to the next full rank). It was night and day difference. It was soooooo much easier working with these kids that had the fundamentals down. We practiced some drills and I showed them one new one. It was amazing to me what a difference there was between the two groups. These kids were able to do the kicks (basically, obviously not adult BB level or anything but they definitely knew what they were doing and would be good for white belt level). They were able to stand in their stances and walk through the drills. When reviewing their drills they already learned, they actually knew them. It was definitely more fun to work with this group. They seemed more focused too, even if they were still little kids that would spin circles when not their turn, when it was their turn they focused and did their drills and techniques. I didn’t feel like I was beating my head against a wall this time!  Lol. 

I have a newer, deeper respect for my instructor now. Seeing how he can take those unfocused, unmotivated, clumsy kids, and on a few months get them to where they can do the basic movements. Wow. I always knew he had a gift working with kids from watching the class, but I’m even more amazed at his gift now. 


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> I got to help out with the little kids class again. This time I got the kids with the one stripe on their white belt (meaning they are 1/3 of the way through the material to the next full rank). It was night and day difference. It was soooooo much easier working with these kids that had the fundamentals down. We practiced some drills and I showed them one new one. It was amazing to me what a difference there was between the two groups. These kids were able to do the kicks (basically, obviously not adult BB level or anything but they definitely knew what they were doing and would be good for white belt level). They were able to stand in their stances and walk through the drills. When reviewing their drills they already learned, they actually knew them. It was definitely more fun to work with this group. They seemed more focused too, even if they were still little kids that would spin circles when not their turn, when it was their turn they focused and did their drills and techniques. I didn’t feel like I was beating my head against a wall this time!  Lol.
> 
> I have a newer, deeper respect for my instructor now. Seeing how he can take those unfocused, unmotivated, clumsy kids, and on a few months get them to where they can do the basic movements. Wow. I always knew he had a gift working with kids from watching the class, but I’m even more amazed at his gift now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


..... that is awesome .

Yep, and even when you have a class where everyone is all over the place and unfocused, often just that one moment where one kid really gets something and has a big smile.... priceless


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## Michele123

So it’s been a few months. We had a crazy busy fall in our family. I felt a bit burnt out for a couple months following the September test and because of family responsibilities have not been able to practice nearly as long as I used to. More like 20min of technique a day instead of the hour I used to. 

I still managed to progress enough to test for 3rd gup (and pass) in mid-December. No double-test this time. 

Because of time required in advanced ranks before testing, the earliest I could test for black belt would be January 2020. However...

My husband and I had plans to talk about adding to our family starting this spring. We never got a chance to discuss the matter. Apparently we were taking to long and it was meant to be. I ended up pregnant at the end of November.  This is going to put a serious kink in my MA progression. Because of the light contact, I’m not longer allowed to spar. Once the baby is born, I will not be allowed to do any MA for at least six weeks. (I’m hoping to be allowed to at least go watch classes because I don’t want to be completely out). 

I’m bummed that I’m having to miss all the sparring parts of the tournaments coming up. At least I’m still allowed to go to class in general and still help with the little kids class.

I am thankful for this baby. Just not the timing. 

I did finally tell my instructor about the pregnancy and the rules my health provider has instituted. I waited until after my test though because I didn’t want it to influence anything. I’m hoping I can still do my next test but we will see. 

I plan to post a thread in the women’s section, but if anyone had any btdt advice about MA while pregnant, I’d love to hear it. I’m happy to hear from both students who were pregnant while studying and instructors who have had pregnant students study under them. Thank you in advance. 


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## CB Jones

Michele123 said:


> So it’s been a few months. We had a crazy busy fall in our family. I felt a bit burnt out for a couple months following the September test and because of family responsibilities have not been able to practice nearly as long as I used to. More like 20min of technique a day instead of the hour I used to.
> 
> I still managed to progress enough to test for 3rd gup (and pass) in mid-December. No double-test this time.
> 
> Because of time required in advanced ranks before testing, the earliest I could test for black belt would be January 2020. However...
> 
> My husband and I had plans to talk about adding to our family starting this spring. We never got a chance to discuss the matter. Apparently we were taking to long and it was meant to be. I ended up pregnant at the end of November.  This is going to put a serious kink in my MA progression. Because of the light contact, I’m not longer allowed to spar. Once the baby is born, I will not be allowed to do any MA for at least six weeks. (I’m hoping to be allowed to at least go watch classes because I don’t want to be completely out).
> 
> I’m bummed that I’m having to miss all the sparring parts of the tournaments coming up. At least I’m still allowed to go to class in general and still help with the little kids class.
> 
> I am thankful for this baby. Just not the timing.
> 
> I did finally tell my instructor about the pregnancy and the rules my health provider has instituted. I waited until after my test though because I didn’t want it to influence anything. I’m hoping I can still do my next test but we will see.
> 
> I plan to post a thread in the women’s section, but if anyone had any btdt advice about MA while pregnant, I’d love to hear it. I’m happy to hear from both students who were pregnant while studying and instructors who have had pregnant students study under them. Thank you in advance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Congrats on the future lil karateka or (TKDer?)....

Is your daughter still enjoying TKD?


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## Michele123

CB Jones said:


> Congrats on the future lil karateka or (TKDer?)....
> 
> Is your daughter still enjoying TKD?



Thank you!

Yes. My oldest daughter and my son are both still enjoying TKD. It’s going to get crazy come summer because my oldest daughter will have aged out of the little kid class and will be in the general youth class which is different nights than the little kid class and my son will still be in that one for another two years. Still trying to figure out how we will make the schedule work on that. At least I got an extension to keep her in the little kid class past her birthday until the end of the school year. 


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> So it’s been a few months. We had a crazy busy fall in our family. I felt a bit burnt out for a couple months following the September test and because of family responsibilities have not been able to practice nearly as long as I used to. More like 20min of technique a day instead of the hour I used to.
> 
> I still managed to progress enough to test for 3rd gup (and pass) in mid-December. No double-test this time.
> 
> Because of time required in advanced ranks before testing, the earliest I could test for black belt would be January 2020. However...
> 
> My husband and I had plans to talk about adding to our family starting this spring. We never got a chance to discuss the matter. Apparently we were taking to long and it was meant to be. I ended up pregnant at the end of November.  This is going to put a serious kink in my MA progression. Because of the light contact, I’m not longer allowed to spar. Once the baby is born, I will not be allowed to do any MA for at least six weeks. (I’m hoping to be allowed to at least go watch classes because I don’t want to be completely out).
> 
> I’m bummed that I’m having to miss all the sparring parts of the tournaments coming up. At least I’m still allowed to go to class in general and still help with the little kids class.
> 
> I am thankful for this baby. Just not the timing.
> 
> I did finally tell my instructor about the pregnancy and the rules my health provider has instituted. I waited until after my test though because I didn’t want it to influence anything. I’m hoping I can still do my next test but we will see.
> 
> I plan to post a thread in the women’s section, but if anyone had any btdt advice about MA while pregnant, I’d love to hear it. I’m happy to hear from both students who were pregnant while studying and instructors who have had pregnant students study under them. Thank you in advance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A big congratulations on the upcoming bundle of joy. FWIW, my wife was 5 months pregnant when she tested for black belt. During the pregnancy she only sparred adult black belts to stem the safety concerns. As far as the rest of the curriculum, she refused to change anything. She worked out into the 8th or 9th month then stopped for about three months. Naturally things in her performance changed as the baby grew but she has always said continuing to work out made the pregnancy go much easier. Keep in touch.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> So it’s been a few months. We had a crazy busy fall in our family. I felt a bit burnt out for a couple months following the September test and because of family responsibilities have not been able to practice nearly as long as I used to. More like 20min of technique a day instead of the hour I used to.
> 
> I still managed to progress enough to test for 3rd gup (and pass) in mid-December. No double-test this time.
> 
> Because of time required in advanced ranks before testing, the earliest I could test for black belt would be January 2020. However...
> 
> My husband and I had plans to talk about adding to our family starting this spring. We never got a chance to discuss the matter. Apparently we were taking to long and it was meant to be. I ended up pregnant at the end of November.  This is going to put a serious kink in my MA progression. Because of the light contact, I’m not longer allowed to spar. Once the baby is born, I will not be allowed to do any MA for at least six weeks. (I’m hoping to be allowed to at least go watch classes because I don’t want to be completely out).
> 
> I’m bummed that I’m having to miss all the sparring parts of the tournaments coming up. At least I’m still allowed to go to class in general and still help with the little kids class.
> 
> I am thankful for this baby. Just not the timing.
> 
> I did finally tell my instructor about the pregnancy and the rules my health provider has instituted. I waited until after my test though because I didn’t want it to influence anything. I’m hoping I can still do my next test but we will see.
> 
> I plan to post a thread in the women’s section, but if anyone had any btdt advice about MA while pregnant, I’d love to hear it. I’m happy to hear from both students who were pregnant while studying and instructors who have had pregnant students study under them. Thank you in advance.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congratulations on your pregnancy and on your grading! Good to hear from you!

I'm sure some people here will have advice for you. I know that feeling of having to sit on the sidelines for a bit, but there is still plenty of stuff you can work on (flexibility, mobility, light technique work, studying philosophy of your martial art and others) and I also find watching MA videos and training clips to be motivating.

Hope it all goes well. Don't be a stranger!


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## JR 137

Congratulations on the pregnancy. Somehow, all the planning in the world is irrelevant when it comes to this stuff. In a good way, of course.

I’m not a woman, nor am I a MA teacher, but I have had several classmates become pregnant, so I’ve got some insight...

No two people are the same. Better yet, no two pregnancies are the same. Case in point: there’s a woman at my dojo who’s had 2 children since I’ve been there. During her first pregnancy, she was able to train right up until about a week before delivering. Seriously. She felt great throughout the entire pregnancy and her physician said to go with it. We were jokingly taking bets as to which kick was going to cause the baby to come out. And she back on the floor about 5 weeks or so afterwards. And she said she felt like she could’ve come back sooner, but she said everyone was telling her to wait, so she did.  

Her second pregnancy was quite different. She stopped training at about the 5 month mark. She was too tired, nauseous, dizzy, etc while training. She wasn’t on the floor for about 3 months after delivering. And she wasn’t having an easy time with it either. 

I’ve seen both of those and and a lot of in-between. The only thing anyone can really tell you is listen to your body. Unless your physician tells you something else, then listen to what your physician tells you.


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Yes. My oldest daughter and my son are both still enjoying TKD. It’s going to get crazy come summer because my oldest daughter will have aged out of the little kid class and will be in the general youth class which is different nights than the little kid class and my son will still be in that one for another two years. Still trying to figure out how we will make the schedule work on that. At least I got an extension to keep her in the little kid class past her birthday until the end of the school year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Can your son move up? Much better than someone stopping.


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## Michele123

It’s been awhile. Trying to keep up in Taekwondo while pregnant has had its ups and downs. I’m four months pregnant at this point. The relaxin hormone really did a number on me last month. My foot kept turning under and my balance wasn’t as good as I usually pride myself in it being. I think I’ve finally gotten used to all this. 

Last weekend we had a tournament (my son’s first!). I wasn’t allowed to spar. Everyone was against me, my midwife, my instructor, the other high ranking BB. No one would take up my case. We have light contact (or hard if someone isn’t completely in control) but we have chest protectors and baby is still small. I would assume the amniotic fluid would protect baby. Still, no one would agree to let me spar. I was disappointed but in the end it was for the best. My husband had to work so I was alone trying to manage my three kids while also being in the tournament. My 7 & 4 year olds needed help knowing where to go and when and my 2 year old wasn’t in it at all. So juggling her was rough. By the time everything else finished and adult sparing was starting, I was more than ready to get my kids out of there. 

They also rented a different space for the tournament this year. It was smaller and no food was allowed inside. I ate before leaving for the tournament, but not being able to have a snack really did me in. By the adult breaking part (the last event before adult sparing) I was shaking from hunger + pregnancy. I was never able to sneak out for a snack because if it wasn’t one of my events, it was one of my kids’. Overall it was a very exhausting and stressful experience. I will not do a tournament again when my husband has to work. 

It was fun to see my son get to compete for the first time. It was nice to be able to see him alongside of other four year olds. Forms competition was first. He actually did ok considering he refused to practice with me at home. He remembered the first half of his form for the most part, but was thrown off by the lack of counting. Still, he did better than others in his age/rank group and managed to earn silver. Breaking isn’t done at our gym for 4 year old white belts, so my son had never done it before. It was a help stomp, run to the other side and another heel stomp. He missed both of them and didn’t medal. he was very disappointed but did a good job holding it together. Finally he had sparing. He has also never done this before. This is largely because of the weather we’ve been having. I haven’t been able to take him to any of the sparing seminars. I also forgot to brief him so he pretty much just punched and in Taekwondo, you need to kick to score. So no medal in sparing  either. (Though I think he did manage to score one point in each match which isn’t bag considering he had no idea what he was doing or what the rules were). 

My daughter ended up with the older kids since she turned seven just before the tournament. Considering she was competing against kids a bit older than herself, I thought she did well. She mixed up her pattern a bit and did the last couple techniques facing the wrong direction and earned a bronze medal. For breaking, she got nervous and didn’t stomp as hard as she has in class (she’s successful done this break a handful of times) and didn’t end up breaking the boards. However, the only ones that *did* break the boards were two boys a touch older. Of the kids that didn’t break the boards, she must have had the best on form and speed because she ended up getting bronze anyway. For sparring, this is where I’m most proud of her. Last year she had no idea what she was doing. We had only made it to one sparring seminar before and she very hesitant. This time she rocked. She was very aggressive and kept kicking without stopping. She did a great job, winning her first match and only barely loosing her second. With all the kids who sparred, there where three tied for first with the same win record. Since she had the overall most points scored, she one gold. I’m very proud of the progress she made and how much she’s learned in this area. 

For myself, it was very different competing while four months pregnant. For my pattern I did Taeguk Yuk Jang. They ended up having me compete with only one other person the same rank as I but she was a young teenager. I was nervous since she was younger and more energetic but they had her go first. She was so soft with her techniques, there was no power, and honestly, even though she was doing the same pattern as I, I couldn’t tell what she was doing most of the time. When it was my turn I nailed everything except one trouble spot I stumble over at home fairly often, I skipped a punch, then made a face before continuing. Luckily for me (I guess) the other girl didn’t have much oomph in her form so I still won. Still, I wish I had competed against the other adults but they were lower ranks so I didn’t get to. 

This tournament was the first time I got to compete in weapons. We didn’t get to watch each other but I felt good about mine and ended up earning gold so I was pleased with that. 

Breaking I didn’t do so well on. First, by this time I hadn’t had anything to eat or drink for several hours. Normally this doesn’t bother me but being pregnant it does affect me. I was already a bit shaky. I had to go last and we had 8 boards to break in four stations. We got to pick which breaks and where. The more difficult ones obviously being worth more points. I didn’t feel well enough to pick anything particularly daring so I just did a punch-elbow break combo for my first station. I’ve broken with this before but somehow didn’t break with the punch this time. My second was a turn side kick through two boards. I did fine in this but it isn’t a difficult break by any stretch of the imagination. Then I went for a front kick-back kick combo, again something I’ve done fine before but this time didn’t break the front kick. Finally I didn’t a double roundhouse but decided to switch things up by going high-low instead of low-high. I only broke the high board. 

I missed three boards in all and ended up in third place.  I was the only female that placed though so maybe that’s ok. The guy who placed second also missed three of his boards but he attempted some trickier breaks (those were the three he missed). 

So, that is our tournament experience this time around. Definitely not as enjoyable as past tournaments but that has everything to do with not having another adult to help with my kids and trying to video record everything my kids did so my husband could still see them compete. Even if I had done the same with everything, if my husband had been there so I didn’t have to stress and track the kids so much I’d have had a much better experience. 

In three weeks we will have testing. I’ll be testing for brown but the break for that is a twin foot break (jump & simultaneously break two boards with two low front kicks) and they are concerned about me doing it pregnant. They are taking about possible modifications. I don’t want modifications. I want to do the same break everyone else does.  I want to *know* that I’m as good as everyone else wearing that belt. They are just concerned about the fall risk for this break, especially with me being off-center from the baby. :/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Michele123

dvcochran said:


> Can your son move up? Much better than someone stopping.



Sorry I didn’t answer this before. No, this wouldn’t be possible. My son is far too young and immature for the older class. Hopefully we will be able to jungle things ok. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> It’s been awhile. Trying to keep up in Taekwondo while pregnant has had its ups and downs. I’m four months pregnant at this point. The relaxin hormone really did a number on me last month. My foot kept turning under and my balance wasn’t as good as I usually pride myself in it being. I think I’ve finally gotten used to all this.
> 
> Last weekend we had a tournament (my son’s first!). I wasn’t allowed to spar. Everyone was against me, my midwife, my instructor, the other high ranking BB. No one would take up my case. We have light contact (or hard if someone isn’t completely in control) but we have chest protectors and baby is still small. I would assume the amniotic fluid would protect baby. Still, no one would agree to let me spar. I was disappointed but in the end it was for the best. My husband had to work so I was alone trying to manage my three kids while also being in the tournament. My 7 & 4 year olds needed help knowing where to go and when and my 2 year old wasn’t in it at all. So juggling her was rough. By the time everything else finished and adult sparing was starting, I was more than ready to get my kids out of there.
> 
> They also rented a different space for the tournament this year. It was smaller and no food was allowed inside. I ate before leaving for the tournament, but not being able to have a snack really did me in. By the adult breaking part (the last event before adult sparing) I was shaking from hunger + pregnancy. I was never able to sneak out for a snack because if it wasn’t one of my events, it was one of my kids’. Overall it was a very exhausting and stressful experience. I will not do a tournament again when my husband has to work.
> 
> It was fun to see my son get to compete for the first time. It was nice to be able to see him alongside of other four year olds. Forms competition was first. He actually did ok considering he refused to practice with me at home. He remembered the first half of his form for the most part, but was thrown off by the lack of counting. Still, he did better than others in his age/rank group and managed to earn silver. Breaking isn’t done at our gym for 4 year old white belts, so my son had never done it before. It was a help stomp, run to the other side and another heel stomp. He missed both of them and didn’t medal. he was very disappointed but did a good job holding it together. Finally he had sparing. He has also never done this before. This is largely because of the weather we’ve been having. I haven’t been able to take him to any of the sparing seminars. I also forgot to brief him so he pretty much just punched and in Taekwondo, you need to kick to score. So no medal in sparing  either. (Though I think he did manage to score one point in each match which isn’t bag considering he had no idea what he was doing or what the rules were).
> 
> My daughter ended up with the older kids since she turned seven just before the tournament. Considering she was competing against kids a bit older than herself, I thought she did well. *She mixed up her pattern a bit and did the last couple techniques facing the wrong direction and earned a bronze medal*. For breaking, she got nervous and didn’t stomp as hard as she has in class (she’s successful done this break a handful of times) and* didn’t end up breaking the boards. However, the only ones that *did* break the boards were two boys a touch older. Of the kids that didn’t break the boards, she must have had the best on form and speed because she ended up getting bronze anyway*. For sparring, this is where I’m most proud of her. Last year she had no idea what she was doing. We had only made it to one sparring seminar before and she very hesitant. This time she rocked. She was very aggressive and kept kicking without stopping. She did a great job, winning her first match and only barely loosing her second. With all the kids who sparred, there where three tied for first with the same win record. Since she had the overall most points scored, she one gold. I’m very proud of the progress she made and how much she’s learned in this area.
> 
> For myself, it was very different competing while four months pregnant. For my pattern I did Taeguk Yuk Jang. They ended up having me compete with only one other person the same rank as I but she was a young teenager. I was nervous since she was younger and more energetic but they had her go first. She was so soft with her techniques, there was no power, and honestly, even though she was doing the same pattern as I, I couldn’t tell what she was doing most of the time. When it was my turn I nailed everything except one trouble spot I stumble over at home fairly often, I skipped a punch, then made a face before continuing. Luckily for me (I guess) the other girl didn’t have much oomph in her form so I still won. Still, I wish I had competed against the other adults but they were lower ranks so I didn’t get to.
> 
> This tournament was the first time I got to compete in weapons. We didn’t get to watch each other but I felt good about mine and ended up earning gold so I was pleased with that.
> 
> Breaking I didn’t do so well on. First, by this time I hadn’t had anything to eat or drink for several hours. Normally this doesn’t bother me but being pregnant it does affect me. I was already a bit shaky. I had to go last and we had 8 boards to break in four stations. We got to pick which breaks and where. The more difficult ones obviously being worth more points. I didn’t feel well enough to pick anything particularly daring so I just did a punch-elbow break combo for my first station. I’ve broken with this before but somehow didn’t break with the punch this time. My second was a turn side kick through two boards. I did fine in this but it isn’t a difficult break by any stretch of the imagination. Then I went for a front kick-back kick combo, again something I’ve done fine before but this time didn’t break the front kick. Finally I didn’t a double roundhouse but decided to switch things up by going high-low instead of low-high. I only broke the high board.
> 
> I missed three boards in all and ended up in third place.  I was the only female that placed though so maybe that’s ok. The guy who placed second also missed three of his boards but he attempted some trickier breaks (those were the three he missed).
> 
> So, that is our tournament experience this time around. Definitely not as enjoyable as past tournaments but that has everything to do with not having another adult to help with my kids and trying to video record everything my kids did so my husband could still see them compete. Even if I had done the same with everything, if my husband had been there so I didn’t have to stress and track the kids so much I’d have had a much better experience.
> 
> In three weeks we will have testing. I’ll be testing for brown but the break for that is a twin foot break (jump & simultaneously break two boards with two low front kicks) and they are concerned about me doing it pregnant. They are taking about possible modifications. I don’t want modifications. I want to do the same break everyone else does.  I want to *know* that I’m as good as everyone else wearing that belt. They are just concerned about the fall risk for this break, especially with me being off-center from the baby. :/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It certainly sounds like a stressful day. 

I attended my first tournament in 35 years a few months ago.  It isn't especially something I want to do, but I am glad I did it.  One thing that shocked me about the experience was the proliferation of medals/trophies. Tournaments back in the day were much more competitive and for example, in sparring, there might have been 25 or 30 people in a division, and only 3 trophies.  In my most recent tournament, literally everybody who showed up got at least 1 or 2 trophies. 

 I went home with 3, and frankly, the only one I deserved was for breaking.  You made reference to this in your discussion of how your daughter mixed up her pattern and faced the wrong direction and still took a bronze in forms, and didn't break her boards, yet get a bronze in breaking.  Sorry, but that is, frankly, ridiculous.  I mean this as no slight against your daughter, but this teaches her the exact wrong lesson.  But it is clear they are giving out participation trophies.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> It’s been awhile. Trying to keep up in Taekwondo while pregnant has had its ups and downs. I’m four months pregnant at this point. The relaxin hormone really did a number on me last month. My foot kept turning under and my balance wasn’t as good as I usually pride myself in it being. I think I’ve finally gotten used to all this.
> 
> Last weekend we had a tournament (my son’s first!). I wasn’t allowed to spar. Everyone was against me, my midwife, my instructor, the other high ranking BB. No one would take up my case. We have light contact (or hard if someone isn’t completely in control) but we have chest protectors and baby is still small. I would assume the amniotic fluid would protect baby. Still, no one would agree to let me spar. I was disappointed but in the end it was for the best. My husband had to work so I was alone trying to manage my three kids while also being in the tournament. My 7 & 4 year olds needed help knowing where to go and when and my 2 year old wasn’t in it at all. So juggling her was rough. By the time everything else finished and adult sparing was starting, I was more than ready to get my kids out of there.
> 
> They also rented a different space for the tournament this year. It was smaller and no food was allowed inside. I ate before leaving for the tournament, but not being able to have a snack really did me in. By the adult breaking part (the last event before adult sparing) I was shaking from hunger + pregnancy. I was never able to sneak out for a snack because if it wasn’t one of my events, it was one of my kids’. Overall it was a very exhausting and stressful experience. I will not do a tournament again when my husband has to work.
> 
> It was fun to see my son get to compete for the first time. It was nice to be able to see him alongside of other four year olds. Forms competition was first. He actually did ok considering he refused to practice with me at home. He remembered the first half of his form for the most part, but was thrown off by the lack of counting. Still, he did better than others in his age/rank group and managed to earn silver. Breaking isn’t done at our gym for 4 year old white belts, so my son had never done it before. It was a help stomp, run to the other side and another heel stomp. He missed both of them and didn’t medal. he was very disappointed but did a good job holding it together. Finally he had sparing. He has also never done this before. This is largely because of the weather we’ve been having. I haven’t been able to take him to any of the sparing seminars. I also forgot to brief him so he pretty much just punched and in Taekwondo, you need to kick to score. So no medal in sparing  either. (Though I think he did manage to score one point in each match which isn’t bag considering he had no idea what he was doing or what the rules were).
> 
> My daughter ended up with the older kids since she turned seven just before the tournament. Considering she was competing against kids a bit older than herself, I thought she did well. She mixed up her pattern a bit and did the last couple techniques facing the wrong direction and earned a bronze medal. For breaking, she got nervous and didn’t stomp as hard as she has in class (she’s successful done this break a handful of times) and didn’t end up breaking the boards. However, the only ones that *did* break the boards were two boys a touch older. Of the kids that didn’t break the boards, she must have had the best on form and speed because she ended up getting bronze anyway. For sparring, this is where I’m most proud of her. Last year she had no idea what she was doing. We had only made it to one sparring seminar before and she very hesitant. This time she rocked. She was very aggressive and kept kicking without stopping. She did a great job, winning her first match and only barely loosing her second. With all the kids who sparred, there where three tied for first with the same win record. Since she had the overall most points scored, she one gold. I’m very proud of the progress she made and how much she’s learned in this area.
> 
> For myself, it was very different competing while four months pregnant. For my pattern I did Taeguk Yuk Jang. They ended up having me compete with only one other person the same rank as I but she was a young teenager. I was nervous since she was younger and more energetic but they had her go first. She was so soft with her techniques, there was no power, and honestly, even though she was doing the same pattern as I, I couldn’t tell what she was doing most of the time. When it was my turn I nailed everything except one trouble spot I stumble over at home fairly often, I skipped a punch, then made a face before continuing. Luckily for me (I guess) the other girl didn’t have much oomph in her form so I still won. Still, I wish I had competed against the other adults but they were lower ranks so I didn’t get to.
> 
> This tournament was the first time I got to compete in weapons. We didn’t get to watch each other but I felt good about mine and ended up earning gold so I was pleased with that.
> 
> Breaking I didn’t do so well on. First, by this time I hadn’t had anything to eat or drink for several hours. Normally this doesn’t bother me but being pregnant it does affect me. I was already a bit shaky. I had to go last and we had 8 boards to break in four stations. We got to pick which breaks and where. The more difficult ones obviously being worth more points. I didn’t feel well enough to pick anything particularly daring so I just did a punch-elbow break combo for my first station. I’ve broken with this before but somehow didn’t break with the punch this time. My second was a turn side kick through two boards. I did fine in this but it isn’t a difficult break by any stretch of the imagination. Then I went for a front kick-back kick combo, again something I’ve done fine before but this time didn’t break the front kick. Finally I didn’t a double roundhouse but decided to switch things up by going high-low instead of low-high. I only broke the high board.
> 
> I missed three boards in all and ended up in third place.  I was the only female that placed though so maybe that’s ok. The guy who placed second also missed three of his boards but he attempted some trickier breaks (those were the three he missed).
> 
> So, that is our tournament experience this time around. Definitely not as enjoyable as past tournaments but that has everything to do with not having another adult to help with my kids and trying to video record everything my kids did so my husband could still see them compete. Even if I had done the same with everything, if my husband had been there so I didn’t have to stress and track the kids so much I’d have had a much better experience.
> 
> In three weeks we will have testing. I’ll be testing for brown but the break for that is a twin foot break (jump & simultaneously break two boards with two low front kicks) and they are concerned about me doing it pregnant. They are taking about possible modifications. I don’t want modifications. I want to do the same break everyone else does.  I want to *know* that I’m as good as everyone else wearing that belt. They are just concerned about the fall risk for this break, especially with me being off-center from the baby. :/
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I missed your post in January, so firstly, Congratulations!!

It sounds like you're still working hard, being obstinate, and having fun. Good on ya!


----------



## dvcochran

mrt2 said:


> It certainly sounds like a stressful day.
> 
> I attended my first tournament in 35 years a few months ago.  It isn't especially something I want to do, but I am glad I did it.  One thing that shocked me about the experience was the proliferation of medals/trophies. Tournaments back in the day were much more competitive and for example, in sparring, there might have been 25 or 30 people in a division, and only 3 trophies.  In my most recent tournament, literally everybody who showed up got at least 1 or 2 trophies.
> 
> I went home with 3, and frankly, the only one I deserved was for breaking.  You made reference to this in your discussion of how your daughter mixed up her pattern and faced the wrong direction and still took a bronze in forms, and didn't break her boards, yet get a bronze in breaking.  Sorry, but that is, frankly, ridiculous.  I mean this as no slight against your daughter, but this teaches her the exact wrong lesson.  But it is clear they are giving out participation trophies.


I very much disagree with participation trophies.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I very much disagree with participation trophies.


Agreed. I'm okay with things like t-shirts that recognize participation, but trophies and such serve best when they are awarded for something beyond the choice to try.


----------



## Michele123

mrt2 said:


> It certainly sounds like a stressful day.
> 
> I attended my first tournament in 35 years a few months ago.  It isn't especially something I want to do, but I am glad I did it.  One thing that shocked me about the experience was the proliferation of medals/trophies. Tournaments back in the day were much more competitive and for example, in sparring, there might have been 25 or 30 people in a division, and only 3 trophies.  In my most recent tournament, literally everybody who showed up got at least 1 or 2 trophies.
> 
> I went home with 3, and frankly, the only one I deserved was for breaking.  You made reference to this in your discussion of how your daughter mixed up her pattern and faced the wrong direction and still took a bronze in forms, and didn't break her boards, yet get a bronze in breaking.  Sorry, but that is, frankly, ridiculous.  I mean this as no slight against your daughter, but this teaches her the exact wrong lesson.  But it is clear they are giving out participation trophies.



Yes and no. My son only earned one medal out of the three areas he competed in. If they truly were participation trophies he’d have gotten more. The biggest problem is we don’t have enough competitors. Each bracket is as most 6 competitors. When only two break boards then that means one person who doesn’t will still get a medal. It’s a hard thing to deal with though. You can’t really have the four year olds compete agains the eight. It would be no contest. The adults are all together with the occasional teen thrown in but even then there were only 4-5 of us in each area of competition. The biggest problem is not having enough people compete. The best turnout is the older youth, 10-13 but since I don’t have anyone in that group I can’t tell you how many there were. 

I myself am not a fan of participation trophies either. But I do understand the difficulty they are in. Last year at my first tournament I felt myself disillusioned with how few competitors there were. Because of that, the medals don’t mean anything to me. I care about how I felt about my performance more than anything else. Like, I may have won gold for my pattern but I didn’t do as well as I have in the past so I’m disappointed with myself. Same with my breaking (though I know that would have gone better if I’d either been able to eat a snack or not been pregnant) On the other hand I felt really good about my weapons pattern. I also find the feedback from the judges more valuable than any medal. It’s helpful, I think, having other advanced black belts look at my techniques beyond my own instructor. 

For my kids, well I like that there are ranks of medals at least. Both my kids seem more motivated to practice at home now. They both want to get better medals next time. Beyond that, I think the experience was helpful. It was nice for me to see how other kids their age and around their rank did and handled themselves too. It helps me with age appropriate expectations (I’m a bit of a perfectionist and often have to be reminded that kids are kids and still learning in many aspects of life). It was nice to see that my four year old wasn’t the only four year old who fidgets in line, for example. It was also nice to see how my seven year old was this year compared to last year. To see improvement overall in both how she conducted herself and how she performed was encouraging. 

And at least these are medals on a ribbon rather than a full-blown trophy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Yes and no. My son only earned one medal out of the three areas he competed in. If they truly were participation trophies he’d have gotten more. The biggest problem is we don’t have enough competitors. Each bracket is as most 6 competitors. When only two break boards then that means one person who doesn’t will still get a medal. It’s a hard thing to deal with though. You can’t really have the four year olds compete agains the eight. It would be no contest. The adults are all together with the occasional teen thrown in but even then there were only 4-5 of us in each area of competition. The biggest problem is not having enough people compete. The best turnout is the older youth, 10-13 but since I don’t have anyone in that group I can’t tell you how many there were.
> 
> I myself am not a fan of participation trophies either. But I do understand the difficulty they are in. Last year at my first tournament I felt myself disillusioned with how few competitors there were. Because of that, the medals don’t mean anything to me. I care about how I felt about my performance more than anything else. Like, I may have won gold for my pattern but I didn’t do as well as I have in the past so I’m disappointed with myself. Same with my breaking (though I know that would have gone better if I’d either been able to eat a snack or not been pregnant) On the other hand I felt really good about my weapons pattern. I also find the feedback from the judges more valuable than any medal. It’s helpful, I think, having other advanced black belts look at my techniques beyond my own instructor.
> 
> For my kids, well I like that there are ranks of medals at least. Both my kids seem more motivated to practice at home now. They both want to get better medals next time. Beyond that, I think the experience was helpful. It was nice for me to see how other kids their age and around their rank did and handled themselves too. It helps me with age appropriate expectations (I’m a bit of a perfectionist and often have to be reminded that kids are kids and still learning in many aspects of life). It was nice to see that my four year old wasn’t the only four year old who fidgets in line, for example. It was also nice to see how my seven year old was this year compared to last year. To see improvement overall in both how she conducted herself and how she performed was encouraging.
> 
> And at least these are medals on a ribbon rather than a full-blown trophy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Very well said. A good, grounded response. It is tough when there are not a lot in your division. Either you place and feel you could have done better or you get 4th and know you should have done better.


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## mrt2

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I'm okay with things like t-shirts that recognize participation, but trophies and such serve best when they are awarded for something beyond the choice to try.


I like that idea.  Give everyone who participates a T shirt, but save the trophies for the actual winners.  If a very small number of people show up, then they should only give out a trophy or medal for the winner in that case.  I took third in sparring, but there were only 3 of us sparring.  I gave the medal to my wife and told her to give it out as a prize to one of her elementary school students.


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> Yes and no. My son only earned one medal out of the three areas he competed in. If they truly were participation trophies he’d have gotten more. The biggest problem is we don’t have enough competitors. *Each bracket is as most 6 competitors. When only two break boards then that means one person who doesn’t will still get a medal*. It’s a hard thing to deal with though. You can’t really have the four year olds compete agains the eight. It would be no contest. The adults are all together with the occasional teen thrown in but even then there were only 4-5 of us in each area of competition. The biggest problem is not having enough people compete. The best turnout is the older youth, 10-13 but since I don’t have anyone in that group I can’t tell you how many there were.
> 
> I myself am not a fan of participation trophies either. But I do understand the difficulty they are in. Last year at my first tournament I felt myself disillusioned with how few competitors there were. Because of that, the medals don’t mean anything to me. I care about how I felt about my performance more than anything else. Like, I may have won gold for my pattern but I didn’t do as well as I have in the past so I’m disappointed with myself. Same with my breaking (though I know that would have gone better if I’d either been able to eat a snack or not been pregnant) On the other hand I felt really good about my weapons pattern. I also find the feedback from the judges more valuable than any medal. It’s helpful, I think, having other advanced black belts look at my techniques beyond my own instructor.
> 
> *For my kids, well I like that there are ranks of medals at least. Both my kids seem more motivated to practice at home now*. They both want to get better medals next time. Beyond that, I think the experience was helpful. It was nice for me to see how other kids their age and around their rank did and handled themselves too. It helps me with age appropriate expectations (I’m a bit of a perfectionist and often have to be reminded that kids are kids and still learning in many aspects of life). It was nice to see that my four year old wasn’t the only four year old who fidgets in line, for example. It was also nice to see how my seven year old was this year compared to last year. To see improvement overall in both how she conducted herself and how she performed was encouraging.
> 
> And at least these are medals on a ribbon rather than a full-blown trophy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


a couple of points.  I don't think children as young as 4 should be competing in TKD tournaments.   Period.  IMO, this sort of thing is what makes our art a joke for some.  

Second, I hate to be a hard ***, but I don't think you should medal in breaking if you don't break all your boards.  And I don't think you should medal in forms if you make mistakes that would result in failing a belt test if you made the same mistake at a belt test. 

I asked a guy at my school who has been doing TKD longer than me and he agreed the tournaments are kind of a joke, as between him and his 10 year old son, they have a room full of trophies, just from the last 3 years of TKD, and his son from back when he was competing as a little ninja. (again, what does it mean when a 4 or 5 year old already has a room full of participation trophies?)


----------



## dvcochran

mrt2 said:


> I like that idea.  Give everyone who participates a T shirt, but save the trophies for the actual winners.  If a very small number of people show up, then they should only give out a trophy or medal for the winner in that case.  I took third in sparring, but there were only 3 of us sparring.  I gave the medal to my wife and told her to give it out as a prize to one of her elementary school students.


The tee shirt idea could work. The organizer of the tourney would have to be careful though. You can easily have more cost per Tee shirts than trophies. The artwork would have to be thoughtfully done so the left over shirts can be used for the next event. And then you get into the "how many of each size" question. It is always a mystery. But I do see more in the vein of advertising value.


----------



## mrt2

dvcochran said:


> The tee shirt idea could work. The organizer of the tourney would have to be careful though. You can easily have more cost per Tee shirts than trophies. The artwork would have to be thoughtfully done so the left over shirts can be used for the next event. And then you get into the "how many of each size" question. It is always a mystery. But I do see more in the vein of advertising value.


Giving out or selling T shirts with your school logo strikes me as good marketing. 

I have done a few charity bike rides so you could do it the same as you do with charity bike races.  When participants register, they check a little box for their T shirt size.  Let people know that they can show up and register on the day of the tournament, but then might not get the T shirt. Place your order based on the advanced registration, order some extra shirts in common sizes.  If you have extra shirts, you can give them out as prizes in the kids classes in the weeks or months after the tournament.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

mrt2 said:


> I like that idea.  Give everyone who participates a T shirt, but save the trophies for the actual winners.  If a very small number of people show up, then they should only give out a trophy or medal for the winner in that case.  I took third in sparring, but there were only 3 of us sparring.  I gave the medal to my wife and told her to give it out as a prize to one of her elementary school students.


Yeah, if I was organizing something like that, I'd want to include in the rules something about only a given proportion getting an award. If I show up and win silver because there are only two of us in the 45-55 category (or whatever "not really young anymore" age group), that's just silly. At the very least, no more than half of the participants in any group should be able to get a medal/trophy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> The tee shirt idea could work. The organizer of the tourney would have to be careful though. You can easily have more cost per Tee shirts than trophies. The artwork would have to be thoughtfully done so the left over shirts can be used for the next event. And then you get into the "how many of each size" question. It is always a mystery. But I do see more in the vein of advertising value.


The size and count question could be mitigated by having people request a specific size when they register, and only guaranteeing a shirt for advance registration. You'd still try to have them for folks who register same-day, but you'd be able to play it closer to the expected number. Working with the right vendor, you might even be able to be more cautious, if they can handle a last-minute reorder.

I don't think you'd want to re-use them the next event. There's something fun about having multiple t-shirts from a recurring event, and being able to point to which is which. I have almost no t-shirts anymore that didn't come from a mud run, and every time I put one on, it reminds me a bit of the day I got it.

With larger tournaments, this gets easier, as the percent waste is lower, and there are more people to give extras away to.


----------



## dvcochran

gpseymour said:


> The size and count question could be mitigated by having people request a specific size when they register, and only guaranteeing a shirt for advance registration. You'd still try to have them for folks who register same-day, but you'd be able to play it closer to the expected number. Working with the right vendor, you might even be able to be more cautious, if they can handle a last-minute reorder.
> 
> I don't think you'd want to re-use them the next event. There's something fun about having multiple t-shirts from a recurring event, and being able to point to which is which. I have almost no t-shirts anymore that didn't come from a mud run, and every time I put one on, it reminds me a bit of the day I got it.
> 
> With larger tournaments, this gets easier, as the percent waste is lower, and there are more people to give extras away to.


When you say "mud run" do you mean 4-wheeling? That is my jam.


----------



## mrt2

dvcochran said:


> When you say "mud run" do you mean 4-wheeling? That is my jam.


I thought he meant those Tough Mudder obstacle courses.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> When you say "mud run" do you mean 4-wheeling? That is my jam.


No (though I used to really enjoy that when I had my 4WD pickup). I'm talking about obstacle course races like Tough Mudder.


----------



## Michele123

Your discussion on t-shirts is interesting because that’s exactly what they do at our tournament. Anyone who registers by a given date gets a discount for the tournament plus a t-shirt in their size. It is fun to collect the t-shirts. I certainly enjoy them more than any medals. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Bruce7

Michele123 said:


> Hello,
> I studied Shutokan (a small offshoot of Shotokan) as a teen in the 90’s and earned 1st Dan before moving off to college. I continued to train when home, but that was just short stints. Then in 2004 I married and we both went to graduate school. At that point I ceased training altogether.
> 
> Fast-forward to now. My daughter (almost 6) and I started Tae Kwan Do back in October. Because I have smaller children waiting for me at home, I can’t stay and ask all the questions I want after each class. I was hoping maybe this thread could serve as a place for me to ask questions and just talk about the transition from Okinawa karate to Korean Tae Kwan Do.
> 
> First, Shutokan was heavily based on self-defense. We didn’t study traditional weapons. We didn’t compete. It was often discussed that Tae Kwan Do is flashy and impractical. Tae Kwan Do was all kicks and competition and the targets that would be most useful in a self-defense situation you are taught *not* to hit in Tae Kwan Do because of its tournament focus.   Do you all find this true?  Is Tae Kwan Do so focused on flash and competition that it is impractical?  I like the idea of studying a martial art that I can continue if I move again. Tae Kwan Do seems to be in every town. But I don’t want my daughter to have false confidence and not have the self-defense skills it is important for a woman to have.
> 
> Second, in karate it was very important to stay the same height in our katas (forms).  In Tae Kwan Do, with walking stances verses long stances and everything else, it seems that bobbing is preferred.  Why?  Am I misunderstanding something?  The goal with not bobbing in karate was so your opponent couldn’t figure out what you were doing next.
> 
> Finally (for now), what is the first Tae Kwan Do form (name escapes me at the moment) so similar to the first Shutokan kata (Pinan Shodan)?  I thought Tae Kwan Do wasn’t considered a karate?
> 
> I’ve been enjoying classes very much. I’d forgotten how glorious it is to push yourself and train hard and become so in tune with your body. As kicking was always my favorite part of Shutokan, I’m enjoying the plethora of kicks in Tae Kwan Do. Apparently I understand too much theory already as I’m asking questions that are uncommon for a white belt to ask.
> 
> That leads me to another question. Rank order. Is this different between different Tae Kwan Do schools?  At this one, you start as a white belt candidate, then have to learn a form and several basics before testing for your white belt. Next is orange followed by yellow. This seems strange to me as yellow is a lighter color than orange and in Shutokan yellow followed white then orange followed yellow. So a flip from the Tae Kwan Do here.
> 
> Anyhow, because of my background I’m picking things up quickly. I tested for white belt in December and my instructor says he wants me to double test at the end of this month since I already know most of the material and whatnot.  I’m actually pretty excited about that. I just wish I had the time to practice that I did back when I was a teen. Being a mom to three little kids, plus two work from home jobs (university professor and database developer) in addition to all the typical household chores, leaves me little time to practice.  Most of my practice time is visualizing while rocking the baby to sleep or cooking dinner or drifting off to sleep at night.
> 
> Anyhow, Thank you for reading. I’m excited for this new martial arts journey! I just hope my old way of doing things doesn’t trip me up too much!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is an excellent post. I enjoyed every ones comments.

Over the past 3 months I have gone to many Taekwondo schools and looked at many Taekwondo forms on the internet and I agree with your observations.

IMO Taekwondo has not changed for the better. I have not been to a Tang Soo Do school yet, but the way they do the forms on the internet
look old school. More like Shutokan.


----------



## JR 137

mrt2 said:


> I like that idea.  Give everyone who participates a T shirt, but save the trophies for the actual winners.  If a very small number of people show up, then they should only give out a trophy or medal for the winner in that case.  I took third in sparring, but there were only 3 of us sparring.  I gave the medal to my wife and told her to give it out as a prize to one of her elementary school students.


I didn’t know whether to rate this one like, agree or funny. The last line had me laughing so I went with funny.

The first tournament I competed in had 2 people in my kata division. The other guy claimed to have started 3 weeks before the tournament. He said his kids were competing and they talked him into karate and going to the tournament. He said they should just give me the trophy because he has no clue what he’s doing. I thought maybe he was trying to get into my head.

I was up first. I did pretty well but could’ve done better. Then he was up. Sure enough, he wasn’t lying. He didn’t get through half of his kata before he stopped and bowed out.

They took a picture of us with our trophies. I wonder what he did with his trophy. When they asked us to take a picture, he said “really?” and shook his head with a priceless look on his face. I started laughing and said “I’m definitely laughing with you here and not at you.” I would’ve loved to see that picture. They took pics of every group.

As for the t-shirts for tournament competitors, simple: have them put down their size on the registration sheet. Then give them what they put down when they check in. Too many/not enough problem solved. For that part anyway. And you can include the cost of the shirt into the registration fee.


----------



## mrt2

Bruce7 said:


> This is an excellent post. I enjoyed every ones comments.
> 
> Over the past 3 months I have gone to many Taekwondo schools and looked at many Taekwondo forms on the internet and I agree with your observations.
> 
> IMO Taekwondo has not changed for the better. I have not been to a Tang Soo Do school yet, but the way they do the forms on the internet
> look old school. More like Shutokan.


It is hard to say what is better, what is worse, and what is about the same.  I came from a Tang Soo Do background and if I still lived in the area where I grew up, wouldn't hesitate to go back to Yi's Tang Soo Do in Cherry Hill, even though Grandmaster Yi no longer teaches there, I have no doubt he wouldn't allow them to use his name unless they were following his curriculum.  

That said, I did look them up and there is a huge proliferation of belts now in TSD.  When I trained in TSD, there were only 3 belt colors between white and black belt.  There was orange, green, and red.  It took me 8 months to make red belt, and another 9 months after that to make red belt, and I never made it beyond red belt in almost 3 years of training, and 3 years was the minimum time you needed to train before they allowed you to test for black belt.

But I live halfway across the country and there is almost no Tang Soo Do presence here.  (I looked it up and there is one TSD school about 2 hours from here.)  So I went with Tae Kwon Do.  So what is the difference.  Having to learn some new forms, which is not a bad thing, a lot more kids than adults, which is probably true of most traditional martial arts, and wearing a lot more protective gear when sparring, which is probably also a good thing.

If I were you, I wouldn't give up on TKD.


----------



## mrt2

JR 137 said:


> I didn’t know whether to rate this one like, agree or funny. The last line had me laughing so I went with funny.
> 
> The first tournament I competed in had 2 people in my kata division. The other guy claimed to have started 3 weeks before the tournament. He said his kids were competing and they talked him into karate and going to the tournament. He said they should just give me the trophy because he has no clue what he’s doing. I thought maybe he was trying to get into my head.
> 
> I was up first. I did pretty well but could’ve done better. Then he was up. Sure enough, he wasn’t lying. He didn’t get through half of his kata before he stopped and bowed out.
> 
> *They took a picture of us with our trophies*. I wonder what he did with his trophy. When they asked us to take a picture, he said “really?” and shook his head with a priceless look on his face. I started laughing and said “I’m definitely laughing with you here and not at you.” I would’ve loved to see that picture. They took pics of every group.
> 
> As for the t-shirts for tournament competitors, simple: have them put down their size on the registration sheet. Then give them what they put down when they check in. Too many/not enough problem solved. For that part anyway. And you can include the cost of the shirt into the registration fee.


  That is funny, but in a way sad.  I don't want a trophy in kata if the pattern I perform isn't even good enough for a passing grade at a belt test.  Same with breaking.  Same with sparring.


----------



## dvcochran

Bruce7 said:


> This is an excellent post. I enjoyed every ones comments.
> 
> Over the past 3 months I have gone to many Taekwondo schools and looked at many Taekwondo forms on the internet and I agree with your observations.
> 
> IMO Taekwondo has not changed for the better. I have not been to a Tang Soo Do school yet, but the way they do the forms on the internet
> look old school. More like Shutokan.


Hang in there @Bruce7. I hope you keep auditing different schools. You are correct that a lot has changed, but I think there has been more change for the better. It is harder for us old guys to embrace change sometimes.


----------



## Michele123

Testing was yesterday. 

The little kids actually did well. I was surprised (in a good way) how they actually all remembered their stuff.  I was actually asking my instructor about some of the kids testing before the test and he told me that you’d be surprised what kids remember when under pressure from a test.  I didn’t completely believe him but boy was I proven wrong. Even the fidgeting was at a minimum. It was pretty cool to see. My son even broke his board on his first try (and there was no practice for it unless you count the tournament last month). He was beaming!

After the test our instructor told me that my oldest is of the age and showing the maturing to move up into the youth class.  That’s great for her but that means my two will be going to classes on different nights. That suddenly doubles the travel time and just time away from the rest of life. We will have to work it out but I asked if she can stay in the little kids class until after Easter at least. He was fine with that. 

My test was somewhat disappointing. I did well enough to pass, but it wasn’t up to my personally standards. I got winded *so* easily. I guess when I decided to continue through pregnancy I didn’t picture it being any harder. At almost five months pregnant I thought I’d still be light on my feet and all that since I’ve been doing this from before pregnancy. It’s so much more work and so discouraging. My mind actually blanked out when it was time to do my pattern and that has never happened before. Usually that’s the easiest thing for me. I did get my mind back and on my second try (you know, where I actually did the pattern instead of looking blankly) I did it very well. But still. I *really* hoping part of the issue is from having been sick in bed for the three days prior to the test and still not being back up (I was maybe at 75%). But still, I would’ve expected adrenaline to cover for that. My drills were fine except that I got *so* wiped out and winded by them. My break was especially difficult but that is somewhat due to the fact that they couldn’t decide what alternate break they wanted me to do ahead of time and I had nothing to prepare. I did manage to do it but it took more than one attempt this time.  Just for my sake, I hope after the baby comes I can attempt the original break. I really wanted to try it but since it usually involves landing on your back and rolling, they wouldn’t let me. My midwife wouldn’t want me to either so I guess they are probably right. 

On another note, I guess I’m grateful that I can continue to train during pregnancy in my late-30’s. It is certainly a different kind of challenge but it is still a challenge. I like to persevere through challenges.  I’ve got this weird desire to train right up until the day I give birth. Like how cool would it be to get home after training and just start labor then?  I’m hoping I can make it.  I tend to wimp out in the summer heat, especially while pregnant. 

Anyhow, thanks for reading. Sometimes I wish I had my younger body. It might handle pregnancy and training a bit more smoothly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> Testing was yesterday.
> 
> The little kids actually did well. I was surprised (in a good way) how they actually all remembered their stuff.  I was actually asking my instructor about some of the kids testing before the test and he told me that you’d be surprised what kids remember when under pressure from a test.  I didn’t completely believe him but boy was I proven wrong. Even the fidgeting was at a minimum. It was pretty cool to see. My son even broke his board on his first try (and there was no practice for it unless you count the tournament last month). He was beaming!
> 
> After the test our instructor told me that my oldest is of the age and showing the maturing to move up into the youth class.  That’s great for her but that means my two will be going to classes on different nights. That suddenly doubles the travel time and just time away from the rest of life. We will have to work it out but I asked if she can stay in the little kids class until after Easter at least. He was fine with that.
> 
> My test was somewhat disappointing. I did well enough to pass, but it wasn’t up to my personally standards. I got winded *so* easily. I guess when I decided to continue through pregnancy I didn’t picture it being any harder. At almost five months pregnant I thought I’d still be light on my feet and all that since I’ve been doing this from before pregnancy. It’s so much more work and so discouraging. My mind actually blanked out when it was time to do my pattern and that has never happened before. Usually that’s the easiest thing for me. I did get my mind back and on my second try (you know, where I actually did the pattern instead of looking blankly) I did it very well. But still. I *really* hoping part of the issue is from having been sick in bed for the three days prior to the test and still not being back up (I was maybe at 75%). But still, I would’ve expected adrenaline to cover for that. My drills were fine except that I got *so* wiped out and winded by them. My break was especially difficult but that is somewhat due to the fact that they couldn’t decide what alternate break they wanted me to do ahead of time and I had nothing to prepare. I did manage to do it but it took more than one attempt this time.  Just for my sake, I hope after the baby comes I can attempt the original break. I really wanted to try it but since it usually involves landing on your back and rolling, they wouldn’t let me. My midwife wouldn’t want me to either so I guess they are probably right.
> 
> On another note, I guess I’m grateful that I can continue to train during pregnancy in my late-30’s. It is certainly a different kind of challenge but it is still a challenge. I like to persevere through challenges.  I’ve got this weird desire to train right up until the day I give birth. Like how cool would it be to get home after training and just start labor then?  I’m hoping I can make it.  I tend to wimp out in the summer heat, especially while pregnant.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for reading. Sometimes I wish I had my younger body. It might handle pregnancy and training a bit more smoothly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Babies are jerks. They make everything harder. But they're so cute, we let them get away with it, even when we can't see how cute they are yet.

Sounds like you did a good job. Your body is under an unusual stress, and you'd been pretty sick (which also dramatically reduces your stamina), so getting through it and passing under those circumstances is a very nice achievement. Good effort, and good result!


----------



## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Testing was yesterday.
> 
> The little kids actually did well. I was surprised (in a good way) how they actually all remembered their stuff.  I was actually asking my instructor about some of the kids testing before the test and he told me that you’d be surprised what kids remember when under pressure from a test.  I didn’t completely believe him but boy was I proven wrong. Even the fidgeting was at a minimum. It was pretty cool to see. My son even broke his board on his first try (and there was no practice for it unless you count the tournament last month). He was beaming!
> 
> After the test our instructor told me that my oldest is of the age and showing the maturing to move up into the youth class.  That’s great for her but that means my two will be going to classes on different nights. That suddenly doubles the travel time and just time away from the rest of life. We will have to work it out but I asked if she can stay in the little kids class until after Easter at least. He was fine with that.
> 
> My test was somewhat disappointing. I did well enough to pass, but it wasn’t up to my personally standards. I got winded *so* easily. I guess when I decided to continue through pregnancy I didn’t picture it being any harder. At almost five months pregnant I thought I’d still be light on my feet and all that since I’ve been doing this from before pregnancy. It’s so much more work and so discouraging. My mind actually blanked out when it was time to do my pattern and that has never happened before. Usually that’s the easiest thing for me. I did get my mind back and on my second try (you know, where I actually did the pattern instead of looking blankly) I did it very well. But still. I *really* hoping part of the issue is from having been sick in bed for the three days prior to the test and still not being back up (I was maybe at 75%). But still, I would’ve expected adrenaline to cover for that. My drills were fine except that I got *so* wiped out and winded by them. My break was especially difficult but that is somewhat due to the fact that they couldn’t decide what alternate break they wanted me to do ahead of time and I had nothing to prepare. I did manage to do it but it took more than one attempt this time.  Just for my sake, I hope after the baby comes I can attempt the original break. I really wanted to try it but since it usually involves landing on your back and rolling, they wouldn’t let me. My midwife wouldn’t want me to either so I guess they are probably right.
> 
> On another note, I guess I’m grateful that I can continue to train during pregnancy in my late-30’s. It is certainly a different kind of challenge but it is still a challenge. I like to persevere through challenges.  I’ve got this weird desire to train right up until the day I give birth. Like how cool would it be to get home after training and just start labor then?  I’m hoping I can make it.  I tend to wimp out in the summer heat, especially while pregnant.
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for reading. Sometimes I wish I had my younger body. It might handle pregnancy and training a bit more smoothly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Congrats to you and your kids. I would not expect adrenaline to help you remember a pattern. That is more from muscle memory due to repetition. Given the circumstances I would not worry about it and just get back in the dojo/dojang and practice.
Working out up to the point you go into labor sounds incredible, as long as your water does not break in the middle of the workout floor.


----------



## _Simon_

WELL DONE Michele, seriously you did your testing have been sick for the few days prior and fairly pregnant. Even though you felt you got winded more and struggled a bit, it sounds like you conquered a very unique challenge, I'd be even MORE proud of you for that 

And great to hear bout the kids, sounds like training has been of such immense benefit to them and their character already


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## gorilla2

During WW2 Ginchin Funakosi the founder of Shotokan instructed and gave BB to the original founders of the TKD Kwans while they were college students in Japan... they brought this back to Korea...TKD’s Lineage is Shotokan  Karate...


----------



## mrt2

gorilla2 said:


> During WW2 Ginchin Funakosi the founder of Shotokan instructed and gave BB to the original founders of the TKD Kwans while they were college students in Japan... they brought this back to Korea...TKD’s Lineage is Shotokan  Karate...


As a TKD practitioner and former Tang Soo Do practitioner, I pretty much agree.  There is a lot of misinformation among TKD instructors about this, unfortunately.  Way too much BS about hwarang warriors and other figures that, I suppose are important to the history of Korea, and Korean masters practicing ancient Korean Martial arts in secret, not enough about the Karate roots of almost all the founders of TKD.


----------



## gorilla2

mrt2 said:


> As a TKD practitioner and former Tang Soo Do practitioner, I pretty much agree.  There is a lot of misinformation among TKD instructors about this, unfortunately.  Way too much BS about hwarang warriors and other figures that, I suppose are important to the history of Korea, and Korean masters practicing ancient Korean Martial arts in secret, not enough about the Karate roots of almost all the founders of TKD.


 If you are a   Song Moo Kwan practitioner you are doing Shotokan...TKD is Karate with a mix of Kung Fu...I know that is an overly simplified but basically true...


----------



## Earl Weiss

gorilla2 said:


> During WW2 Ginchin Funakosi the founder of Shotokan instructed and gave BB to the original founders of the TKD Kwans while they were college students in Japan... they brought this back to Korea...TKD’s Lineage is Shotokan  Karate...


And Shotokan's lineage was Shorin, Shorei and  perhaps other Okinwn Ryus, and Shroin lineage was Sholin, so   the TJD libeage is then Shaolin.   (FWIW General Choi mentions the Shorin / Shorei Lineage in his 1965 Book)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Earl Weiss said:


> And Shotokan's lineage was Shorin, Shorei and  perhaps other Okinwn Ryus, and Shroin lineage was Sholin, so   the TJD libeage is then Shaolin.   (FWIW General Choi mentions the Shorin / Shorei Lineage in his 1965 Book)


Earl, did you have a stroke midway through that post?


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## dvcochran

Yes, that was non-typical of his post.


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## Earl Weiss

gpseymour said:


> Earl, did you have a stroke midway through that post?


Dyslexic keyboard issues.  Did you hear about the  dyslexic atheist who did not believe in dog.


----------



## JR 137

Earl Weiss said:


> Dyslexic keyboard issues.  Did you hear about the  dyslexic atheist who did not believe in dog.


Dyslexics are teople poo.


----------



## gorilla2

Earl Weiss said:


> And Shotokan's lineage was Shorin, Shorei and  perhaps other Okinwn Ryus, and Shroin lineage was Sholin, so   the TJD libeage is then Shaolin.   (FWIW General Choi mentions the Shorin / Shorei Lineage in his 1965 Book)


Earl I remember you from the old days.... I started in 2009 also...posted regularly for 4/5 years....life caught up with me thought I would come back


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> Dyslexics are teople poo.


I laughed far more at that than is reasonable, JR.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

gorilla2 said:


> Earl I remember you from the old days.... I started in 2009 also...posted regularly for 4/5 years....life caught up with me thought I would come back


Gorilla, you missed nearly all my posts. I expect you to spend the weekend catching up on them all.


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## gorilla2

gpseymour said:


> Gorilla, you missed nearly all my posts. I expect you to spend the weekend catching up on them all.


I am sure that are a worthy read...


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I laughed far more at that than is reasonable, JR.


Every now and then, things aren’t just funny in my own mind. Doesn’t happen often.


----------



## Michele123

Well, it’s been awhile I thought I’d post an update. Continuing to train while pregnant is much more challenging than I anticipated. I still really enjoy it (though experience a lot of frustration that I simply cannot perform to the level I am used to). It has been frustrating to go from the person who could run towards the head of the pack during warm-ups to the person huffing to finish a lap behind everyone else.  I keep pushing myself to perform as I did before the pregnancy and end up with injuries. I’ve developed varicose veins on my left leg and never had a hint of them with my other three pregnancies. I have also developed the beginnings of planters fasciitis on my right foot from pushing too hard with too much weight. Nevertheless I have been committed to continuing to train for as long as I can. I am just over a month away from my due date at this point. My kicks are not head high anymore, not for lack of flexibility or balance, but because I have a giant ball fixed to my torso that is simply in the way of my kicks.  My biggest concern at this point is how long it’ll take me to get back into shape after the baby is born. I’m not allowed any type of exercise for the first six weeks postpartum and then I can only start again slowly. I don’t do slowly very well...  on top of that, everyone is conspiring to pressure me to stop TKD for this last month of pregnancy. (This includes husband, instructor, and medical personnel). 

In any case, last night was testing. It was a whirlwind since I help with the Youngest class, had to rush home to put my 2-year old to bed and teach my university class, then rush back for my test. 

My son (now 5) actually did really well. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well most of the little kids did. The ones that have been there longer have considerable improvement in the smoothing out of their techniques.  I’m honestly impressed because I had doubts regarding the learning of these little kids. Anyhow, when it came to my son’s board break he had to do a heel stomp, then turn around and do another on the other side.  If they missed the second one they would have to start over and do the first one again. My son got both his first try. He never hesitated. I was impressed. The older child that had the same break as him and is twice as large kept hesitating and never broke the second board. 

My daughter who has moved up to the youth class didn’t pass for the first time. The breaks are harder and that was the only thing she didn’t get. She actually knows her techniques well. Personally, I think it is good for her to not pass. She can learn that it isn’t the end of the world and to try again. She is such a perfectionist I’m hoping she will learn not to fear imperfection. 

I surprised myself with my test. Between my varicose veins behind my left knee and my pain in my right foot, I was concerned about getting through my test. I actually managed to do pretty well (though I was barely able to walk after the test). I even got both my board breaks. So now I’m officially a 1st gup. Of course with the baby coming soon it’ll be awhile before I’m able to work on and test for 1st Dan. 

My biggest disappointment is not being able to continue classes right up until giving birth.   I look forward to returning to class after the baby is born. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Flying Crane

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile I thought I’d post an update. Continuing to train while pregnant is much more challenging than I anticipated. I still really enjoy it (though experience a lot of frustration that I simply cannot perform to the level I am used to). It has been frustrating to go from the person who could run towards the head of the pack during warm-ups to the person huffing to finish a lap behind everyone else.  I keep pushing myself to perform as I did before the pregnancy and end up with injuries. I’ve developed varicose veins on my left leg and never had a hint of them with my other three pregnancies. I have also developed the beginnings of planters fasciitis on my right foot from pushing too hard with too much weight. Nevertheless I have been committed to continuing to train for as long as I can. I am just over a month away from my due date at this point. My kicks are not head high anymore, not for lack of flexibility or balance, but because I have a giant ball fixed to my torso that is simply in the way of my kicks.  My biggest concern at this point is how long it’ll take me to get back into shape after the baby is born. I’m not allowed any type of exercise for the first six weeks postpartum and then I can only start again slowly. I don’t do slowly very well...  on top of that, everyone is conspiring to pressure me to stop TKD for this last month of pregnancy. (This includes husband, instructor, and medical personnel).
> 
> In any case, last night was testing. It was a whirlwind since I help with the Youngest class, had to rush home to put my 2-year old to bed and teach my university class, then rush back for my test.
> 
> My son (now 5) actually did really well. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well most of the little kids did. The ones that have been there longer have considerable improvement in the smoothing out of their techniques.  I’m honestly impressed because I had doubts regarding the learning of these little kids. Anyhow, when it came to my son’s board break he had to do a heel stomp, then turn around and do another on the other side.  If they missed the second one they would have to start over and do the first one again. My son got both his first try. He never hesitated. I was impressed. The older child that had the same break as him and is twice as large kept hesitating and never broke the second board.
> 
> My daughter who has moved up to the youth class didn’t pass for the first time. The breaks are harder and that was the only thing she didn’t get. She actually knows her techniques well. Personally, I think it is good for her to not pass. She can learn that it isn’t the end of the world and to try again. She is such a perfectionist I’m hoping she will learn not to fear imperfection.
> 
> I surprised myself with my test. Between my varicose veins behind my left knee and my pain in my right foot, I was concerned about getting through my test. I actually managed to do pretty well (though I was barely able to walk after the test). I even got both my board breaks. So now I’m officially a 1st gup. Of course with the baby coming soon it’ll be awhile before I’m able to work on and test for 1st Dan.
> 
> My biggest disappointment is not being able to continue classes right up until giving birth.   I look forward to returning to class after the baby is born.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Take your time in your recovery after you deliver your child.  Seriously, especially at this late stage in the pregnancy, you need to be careful both for yourself and for the child.  Go easy.  Give up your drive to be the best.  It really does not matter.  And don’t be in a hurry to try and regain what has diminished during the pregnancy.  Again, your priority is your new child and your own health.  Your training can wait, there is no rush.

Seriously, this is your third pregnancy?  I should not need to tell you this.


----------



## JR 137

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile I thought I’d post an update. Continuing to train while pregnant is much more challenging than I anticipated. I still really enjoy it (though experience a lot of frustration that I simply cannot perform to the level I am used to). It has been frustrating to go from the person who could run towards the head of the pack during warm-ups to the person huffing to finish a lap behind everyone else.  I keep pushing myself to perform as I did before the pregnancy and end up with injuries. I’ve developed varicose veins on my left leg and never had a hint of them with my other three pregnancies. I have also developed the beginnings of planters fasciitis on my right foot from pushing too hard with too much weight. Nevertheless I have been committed to continuing to train for as long as I can. I am just over a month away from my due date at this point. My kicks are not head high anymore, not for lack of flexibility or balance, but because I have a giant ball fixed to my torso that is simply in the way of my kicks.  My biggest concern at this point is how long it’ll take me to get back into shape after the baby is born. I’m not allowed any type of exercise for the first six weeks postpartum and then I can only start again slowly. I don’t do slowly very well...  on top of that, everyone is conspiring to pressure me to stop TKD for this last month of pregnancy. (This includes husband, instructor, and medical personnel).
> 
> In any case, last night was testing. It was a whirlwind since I help with the Youngest class, had to rush home to put my 2-year old to bed and teach my university class, then rush back for my test.
> 
> My son (now 5) actually did really well. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well most of the little kids did. The ones that have been there longer have considerable improvement in the smoothing out of their techniques.  I’m honestly impressed because I had doubts regarding the learning of these little kids. Anyhow, when it came to my son’s board break he had to do a heel stomp, then turn around and do another on the other side.  If they missed the second one they would have to start over and do the first one again. My son got both his first try. He never hesitated. I was impressed. The older child that had the same break as him and is twice as large kept hesitating and never broke the second board.
> 
> My daughter who has moved up to the youth class didn’t pass for the first time. The breaks are harder and that was the only thing she didn’t get. She actually knows her techniques well. Personally, I think it is good for her to not pass. She can learn that it isn’t the end of the world and to try again. She is such a perfectionist I’m hoping she will learn not to fear imperfection.
> 
> I surprised myself with my test. Between my varicose veins behind my left knee and my pain in my right foot, I was concerned about getting through my test. I actually managed to do pretty well (though I was barely able to walk after the test). I even got both my board breaks. So now I’m officially a 1st gup. Of course with the baby coming soon it’ll be awhile before I’m able to work on and test for 1st Dan.
> 
> My biggest disappointment is not being able to continue classes right up until giving birth.   I look forward to returning to class after the baby is born.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never being pregnant before and never having the prospect of being pregnant due to my gender, I can only offer the following observation:

No 2 pregnancies are the same. Some are easy (relatively speaking of course), some are difficult. Sometimes women recover quickly, other times they don’t. Not just person to person, but even individuals with multiple pregnancies. A MA example...

A woman I train with has had 2 children. Her first pregnancy was what she called an easy one. She felt great the entire time, and was training right up to a few days before the baby was born. And she was back to training about 2 weeks afterwards. 2-3 weeks into training postpartum, she said she felt like she was never pregnant.

Her second child was the opposite. She really struggled the first several months, and needed to stop at about 5 months. She just couldn’t keep up, and everything was hurting. She didn’t start training again until about 3 months postpartum, it took her a good 3-4 months after that she felt 100%.

She had no clinical complications during either pregnancy. 

Both of my wife’s pregnancies and deliveries were different too. Certain things bothered her during one pregnancy but not the other, recovery was different, etc. We expected the same stuff the second time around as the first time. We were proven wrong.


----------



## Michele123

Flying Crane said:


> Take your time in your recovery after you deliver your child.  Seriously, especially at this late stage in the pregnancy, you need to be careful both for yourself and for the child.  Go easy.  Give up your drive to be the best.  It really does not matter.  And don’t be in a hurry to try and regain what has diminished during the pregnancy.  Again, your priority is your new child and your own health.  Your training can wait, there is no rush.
> 
> Seriously, this is your third pregnancy?  I should not need to tell you this.



Actually, it’s my fourth. But I never had to slow down during the other three. Although I wasn’t actively practicing MA during those three.  I was just using the treadmill and for all the births I was on the treadmill the day the baby was born. I expected the same with MA practice this time as I experienced three times before with treadmill workouts. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Flying Crane

Michele123 said:


> Actually, it’s my fourth. But I never had to slow down during the other three. Although I wasn’t actively practicing MA during those three.  I was just using the treadmill and for all the births I was on the treadmill the day the baby was born. I expected the same with MA practice this time as I experienced three times before with treadmill workouts.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah well.  We all get a bit older don’t we?  And these things can be unpredictable.


----------



## dvcochran

Congratulations on your testing and pregnancy! I would definitely say practicing MA is a far cry from the treadmill. I would not be discouraged by the injuries but you do need to listen to your body, your husband, and especially your doctor. 
Your 1st Dan testing will only come around once so take you time so that you can be at your best when the time comes.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile I thought I’d post an update. Continuing to train while pregnant is much more challenging than I anticipated. I still really enjoy it (though experience a lot of frustration that I simply cannot perform to the level I am used to). It has been frustrating to go from the person who could run towards the head of the pack during warm-ups to the person huffing to finish a lap behind everyone else.  I keep pushing myself to perform as I did before the pregnancy and end up with injuries. I’ve developed varicose veins on my left leg and never had a hint of them with my other three pregnancies. I have also developed the beginnings of planters fasciitis on my right foot from pushing too hard with too much weight. Nevertheless I have been committed to continuing to train for as long as I can. I am just over a month away from my due date at this point. My kicks are not head high anymore, not for lack of flexibility or balance, but because I have a giant ball fixed to my torso that is simply in the way of my kicks.  My biggest concern at this point is how long it’ll take me to get back into shape after the baby is born. I’m not allowed any type of exercise for the first six weeks postpartum and then I can only start again slowly. I don’t do slowly very well...  on top of that, everyone is conspiring to pressure me to stop TKD for this last month of pregnancy. (This includes husband, instructor, and medical personnel).
> 
> In any case, last night was testing. It was a whirlwind since I help with the Youngest class, had to rush home to put my 2-year old to bed and teach my university class, then rush back for my test.
> 
> My son (now 5) actually did really well. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well most of the little kids did. The ones that have been there longer have considerable improvement in the smoothing out of their techniques.  I’m honestly impressed because I had doubts regarding the learning of these little kids. Anyhow, when it came to my son’s board break he had to do a heel stomp, then turn around and do another on the other side.  If they missed the second one they would have to start over and do the first one again. My son got both his first try. He never hesitated. I was impressed. The older child that had the same break as him and is twice as large kept hesitating and never broke the second board.
> 
> My daughter who has moved up to the youth class didn’t pass for the first time. The breaks are harder and that was the only thing she didn’t get. She actually knows her techniques well. Personally, I think it is good for her to not pass. She can learn that it isn’t the end of the world and to try again. She is such a perfectionist I’m hoping she will learn not to fear imperfection.
> 
> I surprised myself with my test. Between my varicose veins behind my left knee and my pain in my right foot, I was concerned about getting through my test. I actually managed to do pretty well (though I was barely able to walk after the test). I even got both my board breaks. So now I’m officially a 1st gup. Of course with the baby coming soon it’ll be awhile before I’m able to work on and test for 1st Dan.
> 
> My biggest disappointment is not being able to continue classes right up until giving birth.   I look forward to returning to class after the baby is born.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congrats on passing your test, that is an amazing feat, especially being so pregnant! Awesome 

And yeah I know that feeling of having to not train for a period of time... will be a test in patience . Keep the fire stoked though, watch classes, read, watch MA vids, and do whatever physically you can (even slow motion techniques).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile I thought I’d post an update. Continuing to train while pregnant is much more challenging than I anticipated. I still really enjoy it (though experience a lot of frustration that I simply cannot perform to the level I am used to). It has been frustrating to go from the person who could run towards the head of the pack during warm-ups to the person huffing to finish a lap behind everyone else.  I keep pushing myself to perform as I did before the pregnancy and end up with injuries. I’ve developed varicose veins on my left leg and never had a hint of them with my other three pregnancies. I have also developed the beginnings of planters fasciitis on my right foot from pushing too hard with too much weight. Nevertheless I have been committed to continuing to train for as long as I can. I am just over a month away from my due date at this point. My kicks are not head high anymore, not for lack of flexibility or balance, but because I have a giant ball fixed to my torso that is simply in the way of my kicks.  My biggest concern at this point is how long it’ll take me to get back into shape after the baby is born. I’m not allowed any type of exercise for the first six weeks postpartum and then I can only start again slowly. I don’t do slowly very well...  on top of that, everyone is conspiring to pressure me to stop TKD for this last month of pregnancy. (This includes husband, instructor, and medical personnel).
> 
> In any case, last night was testing. It was a whirlwind since I help with the Youngest class, had to rush home to put my 2-year old to bed and teach my university class, then rush back for my test.
> 
> My son (now 5) actually did really well. Honestly, I’m surprised at how well most of the little kids did. The ones that have been there longer have considerable improvement in the smoothing out of their techniques.  I’m honestly impressed because I had doubts regarding the learning of these little kids. Anyhow, when it came to my son’s board break he had to do a heel stomp, then turn around and do another on the other side.  If they missed the second one they would have to start over and do the first one again. My son got both his first try. He never hesitated. I was impressed. The older child that had the same break as him and is twice as large kept hesitating and never broke the second board.
> 
> My daughter who has moved up to the youth class didn’t pass for the first time. The breaks are harder and that was the only thing she didn’t get. She actually knows her techniques well. Personally, I think it is good for her to not pass. She can learn that it isn’t the end of the world and to try again. She is such a perfectionist I’m hoping she will learn not to fear imperfection.
> 
> I surprised myself with my test. Between my varicose veins behind my left knee and my pain in my right foot, I was concerned about getting through my test. I actually managed to do pretty well (though I was barely able to walk after the test). I even got both my board breaks. So now I’m officially a 1st gup. Of course with the baby coming soon it’ll be awhile before I’m able to work on and test for 1st Dan.
> 
> My biggest disappointment is not being able to continue classes right up until giving birth.   I look forward to returning to class after the baby is born.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You, my friend, are an addict. Good choice of things to get addicted to, by the way.


----------



## Michele123

Well, it’s been awhile. I’ve tried not to think about MA too much because then I’d get grumpy about not being able to train. I had a super smooth and easy birth about a month ago. 

I think she’s going to be ready to start TKD soon. What do you think?






So at four weeks postpartum I convinced my midwife to let me return to class. However, she had a lot of rules for me. No cardio. No running. No jumping. No ab work. Kinda cuts out a lot of class but I was willing just to be back in the dojang. It felt sooooo good to be back. The first half hour is usually cardio and weight stuff. So I had to stand out of the way and just stretch that whole time. When we started the TKD material, I got to learn the first few techniques in Taeguek Pahl Jang, but it wasn’t too long before I got a text from hubby that the baby had lost it and nothing would calm her down. She usually nurses and refused any of the pumped milk. So I had to leave class early and rush home, but we had worked this out ahead of time and I knew it was likely. I was thrilled to get to be at the dojang as long as I had. I probably won’t get to go this week as this is testing week but that’s ok. Next week I hope we can get things to work better with the baby so I can maybe stay in class longer. Once I’m six weeks postpartum I’m supposed to get to do most everything else again, though no sit-ups or direct front ab work (I have a small separation there from childbearing). Anyhow, I’m chomping at the bit to get back into the swing of things!

I am also looking forward to watching my older two children test. I’ve been helping the oldest work on her terminology. It’s 18 Korean vocabulary words this time and she’s been having a bit of trouble memorizing them on her own. I figure it’s okay to help a 7-year old work on memorizing her words. My son has had me help him with his pattern but doesn’t want help with his memory work (regulations of the Hwarangdo). I look forward to seeing how they and my own classmates do at the test. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CB Jones

Already knows how to make a fist....good job.

And congrats


----------



## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile. I’ve tried not to think about MA too much because then I’d get grumpy about not being able to train. I had a super smooth and easy birth about a month ago.
> 
> I think she’s going to be ready to start TKD soon. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So at four weeks postpartum I convinced my midwife to let me return to class. However, she had a lot of rules for me. No cardio. No running. No jumping. No ab work. Kinda cuts out a lot of class but I was willing just to be back in the dojang. It felt sooooo good to be back. The first half hour is usually cardio and weight stuff. So I had to stand out of the way and just stretch that whole time. When we started the TKD material, I got to learn the first few techniques in Taeguek Pahl Jang, but it wasn’t too long before I got a text from hubby that the baby had lost it and nothing would calm her down. She usually nurses and refused any of the pumped milk. So I had to leave class early and rush home, but we had worked this out ahead of time and I knew it was likely. I was thrilled to get to be at the dojang as long as I had. I probably won’t get to go this week as this is testing week but that’s ok. Next week I hope we can get things to work better with the baby so I can maybe stay in class longer. Once I’m six weeks postpartum I’m supposed to get to do most everything else again, though no sit-ups or direct front ab work (I have a small separation there from childbearing). Anyhow, I’m chomping at the bit to get back into the swing of things!
> 
> I am also looking forward to watching my older two children test. I’ve been helping the oldest work on her terminology. It’s 18 Korean vocabulary words this time and she’s been having a bit of trouble memorizing them on her own. I figure it’s okay to help a 7-year old work on memorizing her words. My son has had me help him with his pattern but doesn’t want help with his memory work (regulations of the Hwarangdo). I look forward to seeing how they and my own classmates do at the test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't like the post. I LOVE this post. Words do not describe how beautiful that picture is. Major congratulation!!!!


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile. I’ve tried not to think about MA too much because then I’d get grumpy about not being able to train. I had a super smooth and easy birth about a month ago.
> 
> I think she’s going to be ready to start TKD soon. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So at four weeks postpartum I convinced my midwife to let me return to class. However, she had a lot of rules for me. No cardio. No running. No jumping. No ab work. Kinda cuts out a lot of class but I was willing just to be back in the dojang. It felt sooooo good to be back. The first half hour is usually cardio and weight stuff. So I had to stand out of the way and just stretch that whole time. When we started the TKD material, I got to learn the first few techniques in Taeguek Pahl Jang, but it wasn’t too long before I got a text from hubby that the baby had lost it and nothing would calm her down. She usually nurses and refused any of the pumped milk. So I had to leave class early and rush home, but we had worked this out ahead of time and I knew it was likely. I was thrilled to get to be at the dojang as long as I had. I probably won’t get to go this week as this is testing week but that’s ok. Next week I hope we can get things to work better with the baby so I can maybe stay in class longer. Once I’m six weeks postpartum I’m supposed to get to do most everything else again, though no sit-ups or direct front ab work (I have a small separation there from childbearing). Anyhow, I’m chomping at the bit to get back into the swing of things!
> 
> I am also looking forward to watching my older two children test. I’ve been helping the oldest work on her terminology. It’s 18 Korean vocabulary words this time and she’s been having a bit of trouble memorizing them on her own. I figure it’s okay to help a 7-year old work on memorizing her words. My son has had me help him with his pattern but doesn’t want help with his memory work (regulations of the Hwarangdo). I look forward to seeing how they and my own classmates do at the test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Congratulations!!! That's fantastic Michele, and yep, your little one looks more than ready to train .

So cool to hear you've been back at the dojang, would be an amazing feeling for sure


----------



## Earl Weiss

Michele123 said:


> I think she’s going to be ready to start TKD soon. What do you think?
> 
> 
> S
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I think there are places where she will be Black belt by her first B Day.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> Well, it’s been awhile. I’ve tried not to think about MA too much because then I’d get grumpy about not being able to train. I had a super smooth and easy birth about a month ago.
> 
> I think she’s going to be ready to start TKD soon. What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So at four weeks postpartum I convinced my midwife to let me return to class. However, she had a lot of rules for me. No cardio. No running. No jumping. No ab work. Kinda cuts out a lot of class but I was willing just to be back in the dojang. It felt sooooo good to be back. The first half hour is usually cardio and weight stuff. So I had to stand out of the way and just stretch that whole time. When we started the TKD material, I got to learn the first few techniques in Taeguek Pahl Jang, but it wasn’t too long before I got a text from hubby that the baby had lost it and nothing would calm her down. She usually nurses and refused any of the pumped milk. So I had to leave class early and rush home, but we had worked this out ahead of time and I knew it was likely. I was thrilled to get to be at the dojang as long as I had. I probably won’t get to go this week as this is testing week but that’s ok. Next week I hope we can get things to work better with the baby so I can maybe stay in class longer. Once I’m six weeks postpartum I’m supposed to get to do most everything else again, though no sit-ups or direct front ab work (I have a small separation there from childbearing). Anyhow, I’m chomping at the bit to get back into the swing of things!
> 
> I am also looking forward to watching my older two children test. I’ve been helping the oldest work on her terminology. It’s 18 Korean vocabulary words this time and she’s been having a bit of trouble memorizing them on her own. I figure it’s okay to help a 7-year old work on memorizing her words. My son has had me help him with his pattern but doesn’t want help with his memory work (regulations of the Hwarangdo). I look forward to seeing how they and my own classmates do at the test.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, that's a good lookin' kid. Dobak'll be proud to be on that one!

And good on you for getting back. I understand the feeling of getting to train after a forced absence. Almost any involvement feels good!


----------



## Michele123

Had my second night back in the dojang yesterday. I took my baby with me because she is at that four week cluster feeding she and cried the whole time I was gone last time. I brought the stroller hoping she would sleep most of the time in the stroller. No luck. I needed to hold or feed her most of the time so I was primarily watching. My midwife would have been happy. After class though, my instructor held my baby and let me go through a few kicks with a couple of the black belts. That felt good. I wasn’t supposed to do the jumps but I did them out of habit and it felt good. 

I hope I figure out soon how to juggle class and baby. I really want to get back into fighting shape and really work hard again. I also want to be careful that I don’t put my baby on the back burner for MA. 

Tomorrow night is the test. I’m hoping I can stay and watch everybody. This is the first testing night since I joined that I won’t be testing. It’s a little weird. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> Had my second night back in the dojang yesterday. I took my baby with me because she is at that four week cluster feeding she and cried the whole time I was gone last time. I brought the stroller hoping she would sleep most of the time in the stroller. No luck. I needed to hold or feed her most of the time so I was primarily watching. My midwife would have been happy. After class though, my instructor held my baby and let me go through a few kicks with a couple of the black belts. That felt good. I wasn’t supposed to do the jumps but I did them out of habit and it felt good.
> 
> I hope I figure out soon how to juggle class and baby. I really want to get back into fighting shape and really work hard again. I also want to be careful that I don’t put my baby on the back burner for MA.
> 
> Tomorrow night is the test. I’m hoping I can stay and watch everybody. This is the first testing night since I joined that I won’t be testing. It’s a little weird.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The back burner part is well said. 
Great to hear your passion for the things you love. I love hearing the open relationship between you and your instructor. A true sign of a MA family. 
We have a Mexican family that comes from another school about 2 hours away twice/month for our senior belt classes. They have a small child that hangs out in one of those play rings or is being held by someone. While mom and dad workout  they do not have to worry too much about the baby since someone is always there willing to take care of whatever is needed. A great thing to see.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Michele123 said:


> Had my second night back in the dojang yesterday. I took my baby with me because she is at that four week cluster feeding she and cried the whole time I was gone last time. I brought the stroller hoping she would sleep most of the time in the stroller. No luck. I needed to hold or feed her most of the time so I was primarily watching. My midwife would have been happy. After class though, my instructor held my baby and let me go through a few kicks with a couple of the black belts. That felt good. I wasn’t supposed to do the jumps but I did them out of habit and it felt good.
> 
> I hope I figure out soon how to juggle class and baby. I really want to get back into fighting shape and really work hard again. I also want to be careful that I don’t put my baby on the back burner for MA.
> 
> Tomorrow night is the test. I’m hoping I can stay and watch everybody. This is the first testing night since I joined that I won’t be testing. It’s a little weird.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Juggling babies is probably against dojo rules. You should check with your instructor. And don't dare tell your midwife.


----------



## Michele123

It’s been another 3+ months. I’m getting to go to class twice a week now and only occasionally get a phone call that baby needs me and is refusing everything else. I’m starting to get back into pre-baby shape. Last week I was able to stay towards the front of the group when sprinting again. Only the teenage boys were ahead of me. It’s nice to start getting back to normal. 

My kids tested again about a month ago. My daughter since hasn’t passed the test she set out to pass back in September. It’s like her confidence and interest were lost at that September test. I feel bad because I never thought to pack food and water for her that day and she just wasn’t able to make it through the younger kids test and keep focus for her test. I think if she had been given food and water while waiting so she didn’t go into her own test hungry and thirsty, she might have done better. Now I can hardly get her to practice or even put in a good faith effort in class. So she failed her test again. I need to figure out how to help her regain the interest she once had in TKD. My son, on the other hand, is still doing very well. He caught up to my daughter rank-wise this last test and is so pleased with himself. I’m hoping that will help motivate her to work harder. My hubby, who doesn’t care about MA, refuses to let her quit because he doesn’t want her to learn to be a quitter. My son worked hard, practicing at home with me several days and really nailed his test. He worked hard and it showed. 

It’s kid of weird going through two test cycles and not being one who is testing. It’s kind of nice though. Many of the black belts have been asking me when I’ll test for black. That isn’t up to me but they seem surprised I won’t be testing next month. It never would have worked. I’m four months postpartum and only now getting back to where I was before baby. Thankfully my instructor understands all that and never even tried to have me aim for a January test date. However, he did tell me at my last class that I’ll be testing for black in June. My baby will only be ten months old. I’m not sure she nor I will be ready to be apart for six + hours. :/  plus, I breastfeed. Am I going to be able to take a pumping break in the middle of the test?  I haven’t gotten a chance to talk to my instructor about these things yet because I had to run off after class last time and now we are on Christmas break. Oh well, it is kind of cool to have a date I’m working towards. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran

Michele123 said:


> It’s been another 3+ months. I’m getting to go to class twice a week now and only occasionally get a phone call that baby needs me and is refusing everything else. I’m starting to get back into pre-baby shape. Last week I was able to stay towards the front of the group when sprinting again. Only the teenage boys were ahead of me. It’s nice to start getting back to normal.
> 
> My kids tested again about a month ago. My daughter since hasn’t passed the test she set out to pass back in September. It’s like her confidence and interest were lost at that September test. I feel bad because I never thought to pack food and water for her that day and she just wasn’t able to make it through the younger kids test and keep focus for her test. I think if she had been given food and water while waiting so she didn’t go into her own test hungry and thirsty, she might have done better. Now I can hardly get her to practice or even put in a good faith effort in class. So she failed her test again. I need to figure out how to help her regain the interest she once had in TKD. My son, on the other hand, is still doing very well. He caught up to my daughter rank-wise this last test and is so pleased with himself. I’m hoping that will help motivate her to work harder. My hubby, who doesn’t care about MA, refuses to let her quit because he doesn’t want her to learn to be a quitter. My son worked hard, practicing at home with me several days and really nailed his test. He worked hard and it showed.
> 
> It’s kid of weird going through two test cycles and not being one who is testing. It’s kind of nice though. Many of the black belts have been asking me when I’ll test for black. That isn’t up to me but they seem surprised I won’t be testing next month. It never would have worked. I’m four months postpartum and only now getting back to where I was before baby. Thankfully my instructor understands all that and never even tried to have me aim for a January test date. However, he did tell me at my last class that I’ll be testing for black in June. My baby will only be ten months old. I’m not sure she nor I will be ready to be apart for six + hours. :/  plus, I breastfeed. Am I going to be able to take a pumping break in the middle of the test?  I haven’t gotten a chance to talk to my instructor about these things yet because I had to run off after class last time and now we are on Christmas break. Oh well, it is kind of cool to have a date I’m working towards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Great to hear from you!!!
Families that work out together are a cherished thing. It can get tough when one child loses interest. I forget your children's ages but regardless, my advise is not to put demeaning pressure on them, such looking only at the next testing. It is a hard line to balance when you want your child to do an extra-curricular activity, that we know is good for them, but they do not want to participate. If possible, separate things like interest, comparison, logic/reason, even encouragement between the children. It has to be Her thing, not a group thing. One of the coolest things about MA's is that it's an individual practice we can do as a group. 
When we meditate before/after class, I often tell the class to think on One thing they done really well and One thing they need to work on.  The amount of information coming at someone, even children can get overwhelming. Help her slow down and stop worrying about the next test. It is only a valid goal when put in the correct frame. Remind her that when she learns the How in her techniques/drills/forms, the 'test' will come naturally. In other words, help her slow her pace and just practice the specifics. Get her doing the techniques she is good at and praise and encourage her. Then Help her with A technique she is struggling with. If you have mirrors at your school, they are excellent tools. People are usually very able to critique themselves. Plus, there is great tangential benefits that you, as a parent/teacher can glean from watching her, watch herself in the mirror. Things like posture, demeanor, expression, attitude are magnified. Continuously Talk to her (not at her) while she is looking in the mirror and explain what you see her doing. Most often, what you see and what she is seeing is quite different. Soo much information to be found there. Explain and Show her what you see her doing and how it is different.  
Make her workouts, her workouts. Framing it only in the context that she is failing testing's is going to drive her farther away class. 
One thing I have suggested to parents is to figure out who are her friends in class. Set up a play time with them outside of class. Sometimes making new relationships that are associated with the extra curricular (MA class) will be a motivator to keep someone working out. Over time, hopefully she will decide she wants to do MA for her own reasons.  

Great to hear you are nearing your BB test. I would say some of the same things to you. 1st Dan BB testing only comes around once. Make is special and memorable. Even if that mean waiting a little longer so that you have the external stressors out of the way. The middle of a BB test is no time to be worrying about anything else, even your small child. I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but I hope you get what I am trying so say. The work that goes into prepping Everything to make your test 'perfect' is directly proportional to the reward at the end. 
In every dimension, we do not have a clue to the craziness in each other life's. One thing I do on a regular basis is keep a running and ever changing 'to do' list. The better detailed and defined you can make your BB test list the better. Yes, expect the test will Not go as planned but still make a hard plan. This will help you figure out how to deal with the externals (like pumping) that hopefully you can deal with. 
Much the same, drill Only what you need as much as possible. Focus is the name of the game. Assess what is external chatter and what is internal necessity. You are already looking ahead, which is a good thing. Now, set down and put 'pen to paper' and work out a plan. This is a great tool to help focus your efforts. 
Keep going and let us know how things progress. I wish the best for you and your children.


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## _Simon_

Awesome to hear from you Michele! BB test in sight wow! How exciting, but yes, as said above only when you are ready for it. I'm sure we won't ever feel 100% perfectly ready for anything, so it's not always great to wait until life's conditions are 100%, but yeah agreed that you want to make sure there is nothing to distract from it, and that you are comfortable with preparing for and doing it.





dvcochran said:


> Great to hear from you!!!
> Families that work out together are a cherished thing. It can get tough when one child loses interest. I forget your children's ages but regardless, my advise is not to put demeaning pressure on them, such looking only at the next testing. It is a hard line to balance when you want your child to do an extra-curricular activity, that we know is good for them, but they do not want to participate. If possible, separate things like interest, comparison, logic/reason, even encouragement between the children. It has to be Her thing, not a group thing. One of the coolest things about MA's is that it's an individual practice we can do as a group.
> When we meditate before/after class, I often tell the class to think on One thing they done really well and One thing they need to work on.  The amount of information coming at someone, even children can get overwhelming. Help her slow down and stop worrying about the next test. It is only a valid goal when put in the correct frame. Remind her that when she learns the How in her techniques/drills/forms, the 'test' will come naturally. In other words, help her slow her pace and just practice the specifics. Get her doing the techniques she is good at and praise and encourage her. Then Help her with A technique she is struggling with. If you have mirrors at your school, they are excellent tools. People are usually very able to critique themselves. Plus, there is great tangential benefits that you, as a parent/teacher can glean from watching her, watch herself in the mirror. Things like posture, demeanor, expression, attitude are magnified. Continuously Talk to her (not at her) while she is looking in the mirror and explain what you see her doing. Most often, what you see and what she is seeing is quite different. Soo much information to be found there. Explain and Show her what you see her doing and how it is different.
> Make her workouts, her workouts. Framing it only in the context that she is failing testing's is going to drive her farther away class.
> One thing I have suggested to parents is to figure out who are her friends in class. Set up a play time with them outside of class. Sometimes making new relationships that are associated with the extra curricular (MA class) will be a motivator to keep someone working out. Over time, hopefully she will decide she wants to do MA for her own reasons.
> 
> Great to hear you are nearing your BB test. I would say some of the same things to you. 1st Dan BB testing only comes around once. Make is special and memorable. Even if that mean waiting a little longer so that you have the external stressors out of the way. The middle of a BB test is no time to be worrying about anything else, even your small child. I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but I hope you get what I am trying so say. The work that goes into prepping Everything to make your test 'perfect' is directly proportional to the reward at the end.
> In every dimension, we do not have a clue to the craziness in each other life's. One thing I do on a regular basis is keep a running and ever changing 'to do' list. The better detailed and defined you can make your BB test list the better. Yes, expect the test will Not go as planned but still make a hard plan. This will help you figure out how to deal with the externals (like pumping) that hopefully you can deal with.
> Much the same, drill Only what you need as much as possible. Focus is the name of the game. Assess what is external chatter and what is internal necessity. You are already looking ahead, which is a good thing. Now, set down and put 'pen to paper' and work out a plan. This is a great tool to help focus your efforts.
> Keep going and let us know how things progress. I wish the best for you and your children.


Very comprehensive post and very VERY well said. Got alot out of it myself.

Thanks dvcochran


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## dvcochran

_Simon_ said:


> Awesome to hear from you Michele! BB test in sight wow! How exciting, but yes, as said above only when you are ready for it. I'm sure we won't ever feel 100% perfectly ready for anything, so it's not always great to wait until life's conditions are 100%, but yeah agreed that you want to make sure there is nothing to distract from it, and that you are comfortable with preparing for and doing it.Very comprehensive post and very VERY well said. Got alot out of it myself.
> 
> Thanks dvcochran


Your are most welcome..


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## mrt2

Michele123 said:


> It’s been another 3+ months. I’m getting to go to class twice a week now and only occasionally get a phone call that baby needs me and is refusing everything else. I’m starting to get back into pre-baby shape. Last week I was able to stay towards the front of the group when sprinting again. Only the teenage boys were ahead of me. It’s nice to start getting back to normal.
> 
> My kids tested again about a month ago. My daughter since hasn’t passed the test she set out to pass back in September. *It’s like her confidence and interest were lost at that September test*. I feel bad because I never thought to pack food and water for her that day and she just wasn’t able to make it through the younger kids test and keep focus for her test.* I think if she had been given food and water while waiting so she didn’t go into her own test hungry and thirsty, she might have done better. Now I can hardly get her to practice or even put in a good faith effort in class*. So she failed her test again. *I need to figure out how to help her regain the interest she once had in TK*D. My son, on the other hand, is still doing very well. He caught up to my daughter rank-wise this last test and is so pleased with himself. I’m hoping that will help motivate her to work harder. My hubby, who doesn’t care about MA, refuses to let her quit because he doesn’t want her to learn to be a quitter. My son worked hard, practicing at home with me several days and really nailed his test. He worked hard and it showed.
> 
> It’s kid of weird going through two test cycles and not being one who is testing. It’s kind of nice though. Many of the black belts have been asking me when I’ll test for black. That isn’t up to me but they seem surprised I won’t be testing next month. It never would have worked. I’m four months postpartum and only now getting back to where I was before baby. Thankfully my instructor understands all that and never even tried to have me aim for a January test date. However, he did tell me at my last class that I’ll be testing for black in June. My baby will only be ten months old. I’m not sure she nor I will be ready to be apart for six + hours. :/  plus, I breastfeed. Am I going to be able to take a pumping break in the middle of the test?  I haven’t gotten a chance to talk to my instructor about these things yet because I had to run off after class last time and now we are on Christmas break. Oh well, it is kind of cool to have a date I’m working towards.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Don't blame yourself for your daughter's lack of motivation.  At my school, I have seen siblings start training together and one takes off while the other flatlines or even regresses.  Or even situations like yours where it is a parent and a child or two children.  IMO, if your daughter is not motivated to practice TKD, I would let her quit.  It isn't for everyone, and there is no shame in trying something out and giving it up after a few months or even a few years. Maybe someday she will come back to it, maybe not.  But forcing her to stick with it even as she flat lines isn't teaching her anything.  Perhaps it will just weigh on her self esteem.  Better to put it aside for awhile and hope she finds something else to be passionate about.  

Good job sticking with your training.  I am also sticking with my training and it is really starting to pay off as I feel better, and feel better about myself than I have in 20 years.


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## Gerry Seymour

mrt2 said:


> Don't blame yourself for your daughter's lack of motivation.  At my school, I have seen siblings start training together and one takes off while the other flatlines or even regresses.  Or even situations like yours where it is a parent and a child or two children.  IMO, if your daughter is not motivated to practice TKD, I would let her quit.  It isn't for everyone, and there is no shame in trying something out and giving it up after a few months or even a few years. Maybe someday she will come back to it, maybe not.  But forcing her to stick with it even as she flat lines isn't teaching her anything.  Perhaps it will just weigh on her self esteem.  Better to put it aside for awhile and hope she finds something else to be passionate about.
> 
> Good job sticking with your training.  I am also sticking with my training and it is really starting to pay off as I feel better, and feel better about myself than I have in 20 years.


My brother went through that with his son. In order to satisfy both thoughts ("don't be a quitter" and "why make him do something he doesn't like") he told his son he could quit after the next school year. My brother still trains, but my nephew is happy not training.


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## Michele123

So… it’s been ages since I posted here. All the COVID responses had me rather depressed for a while and it was too upsetting to come here. 

When the COVID shut downs occurred in my area, I kept practicing at home an hour a day to prepare for the BB Test. But that test never happened because our shut downs lasted too long. I honestly ended up rather depressed being stuck at home so long and finally stopped practicing so much at the beginning of May 2020. When we were allowed to return to the gym (under restrictive conditions) I was so happy to be back. Our oldest daughter had quit after Christmas 2019 but our son was excited to be back and our second daughter was counting days until she was four and could join the dojang. The BB test was rescheduled to Dec 2020. 10 days before I was to test for BB (and my four year old was two days away from testing for her white belt) our state had a second shut down so I again didn’t get to test. It was rescheduled for January 2021, but we had to wear masks the whole time for both class and test. I only have one nostril that is fully functional so I couldn’t do that as it would restrict airflow too much and the Dojang refused to make any exceptions (part of the reason is because our city was too close to the capital and our tyrannical governor was already enacting harsh punitive measures for anyone that didn’t head his mandates and our gym is too small to be able to stay open if hit with one of his punishments. 

My instructor did tell me not to worry at first as there would be another test in April. I asked for ways to train since I wasn’t welcome in the gym. I even offered to help set up a zoom type setup so he could do a hybrid class (I can wear a mask when not working out). He said he would think about it but never got back to me. I found other students from our association that also could not attend class do you the mask mandates so we started getting together once a week in a garage to practice. I ended up receiving a phone call from him chewing me out for practicing with others behind his back. Nothing in the student handbook said we had to get permission to practice together with other students. When April came around, we still had mask mandates in and my instructor informed me I would no longer be eligible to test since I hadn’t been regularly in class for the prior six months. I felt very hurt by this as I had tried to work with him and find other solutions that wouldn’t be hazardous to my health but he was unbending. The next BB test would be January 2022. To be eligible I would have to be in the gym regularly starting in July. 

By July, when masks were no longer required, we found out we would be moving soon (Oct 2021) and since the next BB test was scheduled for Jan 2022 with a requirement of 6 months of gym attendance and with the bad blood, I didn’t return. Thankfully our new location has a Kukkiwon certified dojang with an amazing master who isn’t swayed by fear tactics. It’s a much larger school than I was used to and there are certainly different ways of doing things (both curriculum as well as just gym customs). They took our family in at the ranks we had when we stopped training at our old school, even though it was a year prior. It took a few months to gain our bearings, both in our new home and community and at our new dojang, but by January 2022 we were feeling pretty comfortable. In March 2022 my 7yo son earned his green belt (6th gup) and my 5yo daughter earned her first stripe on her white belt. I was invited to test for BB June 2022, (two years after I was initially supposed to test, before people thought shutting down everyone’s life for months at a time was a good idea). At least now I didn’t have to worry about pumping or being away from a baby since my youngest was now approaching the age of three. 

In June 2022, my 8yo son earned his blue belt (5th gup) and my 5yo daughter earned her second stripe on her white belt. 

This gym did things a little differently for the BB test. We had weekly classes for just BB testers and this was apparently part of the test as well as one student was dismissed from the BB testers class and no longer on the testing lineup. On June 18, 2022, I finally got to take my BB test and I passed!

This month my youngest, now 3, got to start Taekwondo! She loves it and I’m excited that they start them at three here. The instructor for the little kids class is really good with this and I was amazed when I watched the instructor and how she was able to get the kids to punch, kick, and block. 3 is very young and she isn’t quite saying “yes ma’am” yet, but she does take it seriously already and quickly obeys everything the instructor asks her to do. 



So thank you to anyone who bothered to read this whole thing. I’m happy we are back on our MA journey.


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## Tony Dismukes

Glad to see you back, Michele. And I'm happy to hear that you're back to training.


Michele123 said:


> I ended up receiving a phone call from him chewing me out for practicing with others behind his back.


Huge red flag there. Pandemic or not, a good instructor should be happy that students are getting in extra training on their own time outside the school. (Unless perhaps the students in question were beginners who were training unsafely and potentially hurting each other, but that clearly didn't apply in your case.)


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tony Dismukes said:


> Huge red flag there. Pandemic or not, a good instructor should be happy that students are getting in extra training on their own time outside the school. (Unless perhaps the students in question were beginners who were training unsafely and potentially hurting each other, but that clearly didn't apply in your case.)


The only thing I could see here as being reasonable in this situation, is depending on the punitive measures the governor was taking against businesses. If the instructor had it in his head that this would somehow get found out and he'd be accused of avoiding whatever measures were in place at the time, and lose his business as a result, I could see someone freaking out about that. 

He'd be wrong most likely, he has no jurisdiction over what happens outside the classroom, and that they felt a need to practice separately was proof he was following the rules to the letter, but panic over losing his business is at least a bit understandable. 

That said, welcome back Michele, and I'm glad you found a new dojo that is more your speed!


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## auntlisa1103

Glad to see you are back at it, and congratulations on your test!!

My state shut down two weeks before I was supposed to test to Temporary Cho Dan. I’m type 1 diabetic, so I stayed away from the school for about a year and a half. So I know how frustrating the wait is. But as my GM always says, this is a Do. A Way. There’s no time limit.


----------



## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> So… it’s been ages since I posted here. All the COVID responses had me rather depressed for a while and it was too upsetting to come here.
> 
> When the COVID shut downs occurred in my area, I kept practicing at home an hour a day to prepare for the BB Test. But that test never happened because our shut downs lasted too long. I honestly ended up rather depressed being stuck at home so long and finally stopped practicing so much at the beginning of May 2020. When we were allowed to return to the gym (under restrictive conditions) I was so happy to be back. Our oldest daughter had quit after Christmas 2019 but our son was excited to be back and our second daughter was counting days until she was four and could join the dojang. The BB test was rescheduled to Dec 2020. 10 days before I was to test for BB (and my four year old was two days away from testing for her white belt) our state had a second shut down so I again didn’t get to test. It was rescheduled for January 2021, but we had to wear masks the whole time for both class and test. I only have one nostril that is fully functional so I couldn’t do that as it would restrict airflow too much and the Dojang refused to make any exceptions (part of the reason is because our city was too close to the capital and our tyrannical governor was already enacting harsh punitive measures for anyone that didn’t head his mandates and our gym is too small to be able to stay open if hit with one of his punishments.
> 
> My instructor did tell me not to worry at first as there would be another test in April. I asked for ways to train since I wasn’t welcome in the gym. I even offered to help set up a zoom type setup so he could do a hybrid class (I can wear a mask when not working out). He said he would think about it but never got back to me. I found other students from our association that also could not attend class do you the mask mandates so we started getting together once a week in a garage to practice. I ended up receiving a phone call from him chewing me out for practicing with others behind his back. Nothing in the student handbook said we had to get permission to practice together with other students. When April came around, we still had mask mandates in and my instructor informed me I would no longer be eligible to test since I hadn’t been regularly in class for the prior six months. I felt very hurt by this as I had tried to work with him and find other solutions that wouldn’t be hazardous to my health but he was unbending. The next BB test would be January 2022. To be eligible I would have to be in the gym regularly starting in July.
> 
> By July, when masks were no longer required, we found out we would be moving soon (Oct 2021) and since the next BB test was scheduled for Jan 2022 with a requirement of 6 months of gym attendance and with the bad blood, I didn’t return. Thankfully our new location has a Kukkiwon certified dojang with an amazing master who isn’t swayed by fear tactics. It’s a much larger school than I was used to and there are certainly different ways of doing things (both curriculum as well as just gym customs). They took our family in at the ranks we had when we stopped training at our old school, even though it was a year prior. It took a few months to gain our bearings, both in our new home and community and at our new dojang, but by January 2022 we were feeling pretty comfortable. In March 2022 my 7yo son earned his green belt (6th gup) and my 5yo daughter earned her first stripe on her white belt. I was invited to test for BB June 2022, (two years after I was initially supposed to test, before people thought shutting down everyone’s life for months at a time was a good idea). At least now I didn’t have to worry about pumping or being away from a baby since my youngest was now approaching the age of three.
> 
> In June 2022, my 8yo son earned his blue belt (5th gup) and my 5yo daughter earned her second stripe on her white belt.
> 
> This gym did things a little differently for the BB test. We had weekly classes for just BB testers and this was apparently part of the test as well as one student was dismissed from the BB testers class and no longer on the testing lineup. On June 18, 2022, I finally got to take my BB test and I passed!
> 
> This month my youngest, now 3, got to start Taekwondo! She loves it and I’m excited that they start them at three here. The instructor for the little kids class is really good with this and I was amazed when I watched the instructor and how she was able to get the kids to punch, kick, and block. 3 is very young and she isn’t quite saying “yes ma’am” yet, but she does take it seriously already and quickly obeys everything the instructor asks her to do.
> 
> 
> 
> So thank you to anyone who bothered to read this whole thing. I’m happy we are back on our MA journey.


Ohh it's so great to hear from you Michele!!! Sorry things have been so difficult for you... that's really hard, and I hope you're okay.

A massive congratulations on your black belt, that's just incredible and a huge achievement! It's been a long journey, and it's been an honour to witness it here! And so great you're in a place you love now, sounds like it was absolutely for the best . Thanks for letting us all know how you're going.


----------



## Michele123

Tony Dismukes said:


> Glad to see you back, Michele. And I'm happy to hear that you're back to training.
> 
> Huge red flag there. Pandemic or not, a good instructor should be happy that students are getting in extra training on their own time outside the school. (Unless perhaps the students in question were beginners who were training unsafely and potentially hurting each other, but that clearly didn't apply in your case.)


Thank you!
It struck me as odd too, since the only reason he knew is because I emailed him to ask for clarification on a technique. But he accused me of basically stealing from him and teaching other students. I never told him their names because I wanted him and the Dojang safe in case we were somehow breaking the mandate (there were only three others and we were in the garage not the house).  But I had been very careful not to teach them anything new and we only practiced the curriculum we had in common together (they were lower ranks).  In addition, they were from our association, but not even from his gym. At a later point he did sort of apologize but it was hard to feel welcome back at his gym after that. 

I think, before I joined the gym, there had been an issue where a new black belt took students from him and taught them for free, so that experience may have played into his reaction. It still caught me by surprise because when I studied karate in my teens, we were never required to report who we practiced with or ask permission to do so. I had never heard of such a thing.


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## Michele123

auntlisa1103 said:


> Glad to see you are back at it, and congratulations on your test!!
> 
> My state shut down two weeks before I was supposed to test to Temporary Cho Dan. I’m type 1 diabetic, so I stayed away from the school for about a year and a half. So I know how frustrating the wait is. But as my GM always says, this is a Do. A Way. There’s no time limit.


Thank you. I have a friend who is type 1 diabetic also and had to be really cautious and she still is to a certain extent. I wish the gyms were more open to doing some sort of hybrid with zoom during that time. It wouldn’t be the same but definitely better than something. Where I am now they did zoom through both shut downs. Students still talk about the zoom lessons and how it ended up being great because they were able to really focus on the technical parts and hone those skills. I wish my instructor had been open to doing something like that.


----------



## Michele123

_Simon_ said:


> Ohh it's so great to hear from you Michele!!! Sorry things have been so difficult for you... that's really hard, and I hope you're okay.
> 
> A massive congratulations on your black belt, that's just incredible and a huge achievement! It's been a long journey, and it's been an honour to witness it here! And so great you're in a place you love now, sounds like it was absolutely for the best . Thanks for letting us all know how you're going.


Thank you for your support!  It’s nice to see familiar names responding to my post.  I truly love where I’m at now and feeling kinda jazzed because I just got back from class and we worked patterns all night. Patterns are my absolute favorite ❤️


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## Buka

Michele's back, yay!

Congrats on your belt, my friend.


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## _Simon_

Michele123 said:


> Thank you for your support!  It’s nice to see familiar names responding to my post.  I truly love where I’m at now and feeling kinda jazzed because I just got back from class and we worked patterns all night. Patterns are my absolute favorite ❤️


Patterns are my absolute favourite too . So very great to hear! Keep us posted


----------

