# Beginner's query on Iron Palm and Chi



## Keetoowah (Apr 16, 2008)

Hello Folks.  I am interested in beginning Iron Palm training.  I am attending a TAI Kenpo school (TAI is way more like kung fu than karate) and I have a background in Southern Chinese styles.  Unfortunately the military kept either my father and later me moving all around and I never got that much rank.  Now that I am in a stationary place I am climbing the ranks in kenpo but I want to learn the more advanced things that I believe the Chinese arts have to teach.  Iron palm is definitely some thing I want to learn.  I have psoriasis and this means I am constantly applying lotion.  This has made a big, tough guy like me have hands like a princess - much to my dismay.  I want to harden them so that I do not have to worry about injuring them.  I know a little about Iron Palm.  And I know not to begin until I have dit da jow.  But I want to know a soft chi exercise as well.  Which brings me to my next issue.  I would like to know if you guys and gals could suggest a book or website that I could read that would explain Chi to me.  I mean - how it works, etc.  I know I can harness it.  I have been training and felt warmth or chills at times but I want to understand what is happening and how to gather and release it, etc.  I am not a noob and this isn't just about hitting things for me.  I am at the ending stage of beginner where I am starting to understand things I scoffed at before and I suddenly crave the things I used to consider a waste of time.  I want to understand my body and the forces I can use to get the best of it.  I know there are a lot of knowledgeable folks here and I am looking forward to learning.

Kind regards to all and thank you for your knowledge.


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## Jade Tigress (Apr 16, 2008)

You may want to dig around our Chi/Qi forum. Lot's of good info there regarding Qi. 

As far as jow and books, shaolinbrand.com has many excellent jow formulas including those specifically used for iron palm training. And though I'm not suggesting you learn from a book, they also have an Iron Palm Training book that can get you pointed in the right direction as you seek to start training. 

Best of luck and welcome to MT.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 16, 2008)

You may want to check with a TCM doctor before you apply herbs with your condition. Here is a link on the condition you have and the theory of Chinese medicine:


http://www.drshen.com/herbsforpsoriasis.htm

Also finding a good teacher is a good idea to guide you in the correct practice. From what I recall there is someone on this site who practices this and makes Dit da jow you can search the forums and maybe contact him. 

For Qi exercises you can use 1. Stimulation 2. Movement 3. Yi or intent
Books on the subject should deal with theory:
I always found Jwing Ming Yang books good because of his views between Qigong and science.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 16, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You may want to check with a TCM doctor before you apply herbs with your condition. Here is a link on the condition you have and the theory of Chinese medicine:
> 
> 
> http://www.drshen.com/herbsforpsoriasis.htm
> ...


 
Agreed

Keetoowah

Iron palm training can be pretty intensive and if at all possible (and sadly it is likely it is not) find a REAL iron palm teacher. It is more than hitting things it is also training grip strength, power, Qi, etc.. There was a good article in "The Journal of Asian Martial Arts" a few years back on it, if I find it I will post it and maybe you can buy a back issue. As to books, I really can not recommend any. Also Iron palm training if done incorrectly and sometimes correctly can cause you a HEAP of problems when you get older. 

Qi - again the best way is to find a REAL qigong teacher this too is a lot harder than it sounds. Training higher levels of Qigong on your own without a Sifu can be dangerous. But Dr Yang's book is a good place to start; it is pretty much like a textbook about Qi and it will give youa good idea of what it is all about .


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 16, 2008)

Keetoowah said:


> But I want to know a soft chi exercise as well.  Which brings me to my next issue.  I would like to know if you guys and gals could suggest a book or website that I could read that would explain Chi to me.  I mean - how it works, etc.  I know I can harness it.  I have been training and felt warmth or chills at times ...



My advice to you would be to forget iron palm if no one near you teaches it and just concentrate on training what you have access to locally. External training like iron palm can go very wrong and you may not be able to reverse the damage. You don't want to wind up with arthritis when you get older. Books and videos on this stuff aren't good enough. You need a teacher.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 16, 2008)

As mentioned books and videos are great reference material but it really does pay off to be taught Iron Palm or any of the Iron Skill Sets in person with someone who can take you through the program step by step and teach you the correct way to train.

Getting that kind of detail from books and videos is hard.

I teach Iron Palm and Iron Vest through weekend seminars.  

I also had an article published in Kung Fu Taiji Magazine on Iron Palm for MMA.

Let me know how I can be of service to you.


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## Keetoowah (Apr 16, 2008)

Hello to all.  I wish to graciously thank you all for your replies and expertise.  They have guided me already as I am already learning.  Firstly, I want to state for those who do not know from my name that I am an American Indian and my grandfather is what a lot of people know as a medicine man.  Extra consciousness exercises are not new to me and that is why as I got deeper into martial arts recently I understood what was going on when I breathed a certain way, etc.  We know it by different names but we still recognize that power.  My family also has a strong western boxing tradition.  And I have figured out how to use breathing to absorb blows when I spar with my little brother when we can still get together.  I am former airborne infantry so I know that I have the resolve that it takes to learn.  That said, I also know that I have the resolve and bull headedness to seriously hurt myself before I quit.  And this is why I am so thankful to hear from so many well learned people.

   I want to learn correctly.  And as I stated, this isn't about hitting things for me and I know that you must practice both soft and hard exercises to stay balanced.  I am having some health problems and to be honest I think this is because I have no balance in my life.  An ex said I was the uber-guy.  Guns, weights, special response police training, army, you name it.  I think I have thrown myself into combative things all of my life and I have lacked balance.  I am on a journey to correct that now.

I wish I could afford a teacher.  Currently, I am a student and I have an incredibly limited income.  And until I graduate my employment choices are very limited.  Some months I have struggled just to afford my low kenpo dues.  Which are thankfully only $25 per month due to the instructor using a low cost public building.  There is a very well praised Choy Lay Fut school here but - 1. I am loyal to my school and instructor and I like the dirty fighting and combat effectiveness of the style, 2. The CLF school charges $85 per month and that is a real issue for me right now.

I will continue checking back for your replies.  Thanks a lot again


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## Keetoowah (Apr 16, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You may want to check with a TCM doctor before you apply herbs with your condition. Here is a link on the condition you have and the theory of Chinese medicine:
> 
> 
> http://www.drshen.com/herbsforpsoriasis.htm




Jade, thank you very much for taking the time to look this up for me.  I am very appreciative.  I am very interested in TCM because of other imune problems I am having that Western medicine has given up on trying to diagnose.  Thanks again!


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Apr 16, 2008)

> Jade, thank you very much for taking the time to look this up for me. I am very appreciative. I am very interested in TCM because of other imune problems I am having that Western medicine has given up on trying to diagnose. Thanks again!


 
No problem :wink2:

DaleDugas nice to see your input on the matter I always enjoy your posts on the Iron palm.


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## Keetoowah (Apr 17, 2008)

I have to admit that I find it a little perplexing that the Senate Intelligence Committee is willing to accept a degree in Counter Terrorism studies from an completely online (albeit heavily accredited) college but I have to have a personal mentor to simply drop my hands onto a bag of beans.....  Perhaps I am over simplifying this.  I know that this is serious stuff and I can harm myself.  But I am not trying to do "Jackass" type stunts and I don't plan on breaking boards (though I have in classes before) or bricks or trying any thing crazy with hot sand or boiling oil.  I simply want harder hands and to develop myself in other ways at my own pace.  In no way am I doubting what any one else is saying.  I just think it is like the mechanic that cautions you against changing your own head gasket - you know, because you never know if you are talking to a moron or not.  They can seem completely normal until they amaze you with their stupidity with some thing that you helped them do.  I suppose I am going to have to do the best I can on my own.  As for arthritis - I already have that thanks to jumping out of perfectly good aircraft many times.  If only Uncle Sam was as concerned about me as you kind folks are!


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 17, 2008)

Keetoowah said:


> I have to admit that I find it a little perplexing that the Senate Intelligence Committee is willing to accept a degree in Counter Terrorism studies from an completely online (albeit heavily accredited) college but I have to have a personal mentor to simply drop my hands onto a bag of beans..... Perhaps I am over simplifying this. I know that this is serious stuff and I can harm myself. But I am not trying to do "Jackass" type stunts and I don't plan on breaking boards (though I have in classes before) or bricks or trying any thing crazy with hot sand or boiling oil. I simply want harder hands and to develop myself in other ways at my own pace. In no way am I doubting what any one else is saying. I just think it is like the mechanic that cautions you against changing your own head gasket - you know, because you never know if you are talking to a moron or not. They can seem completely normal until they amaze you with their stupidity with some thing that you helped them do. I suppose I am going to have to do the best I can on my own. As for arthritis - I already have that thanks to jumping out of perfectly good aircraft many times. If only Uncle Sam was as concerned about me as you kind folks are!


 
It is more that putting your hands in a bag of beans

No one is questioning your intelligence but you do not really understand what is involved in Iron palm training and without a teacher there that does understand it you can do some pretty major damage to your hands. Maybe not today but 20 or 30 years from now when they are so arthritic you cant open them.

My sanda sifu does a bit, only a bit of iron palm training but it is nothing that you would not find in just about any CMA.

An example is that part of the training is palm strikes on trees. Now I just said that is part of the training and anyone can go off and hit a tree but without the sifu there you will never know that there is a specific sound you want to hear. If you do not hear that sound you is either going to do damage or do nothing at all. 

Thats the type of thing I believe everyone here is talking about. Iron palm is not to be taken lightly you really need a teacher. I have been in MA for a very long time and I would not go off and try and self train Iron palm. I have trained Qigong for quite a while as well and I would not go off an try higher level styles without a teacher and I would not think because of any of that I could self-train iron palm.

You can do what you want but you came here and asked for advice and it was given. No one is questioning anyones intelligence we just do not want anyone to go hurt themselves unnecessarily.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 17, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> No problem :wink2:
> 
> DaleDugas nice to see your input on the matter I always enjoy your posts on the Iron palm.



Thanks for the kind words.


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## Keetoowah (Apr 17, 2008)

Thank you, Xue Sheng.  I understand what you folks mean now.  I did not mean to sound offended.  I simply understand why folks want to caution people who are beginners.  I suppose that I will have to wait until I can meet someone who would be willing to show me.  Until then I will just keep doing palm and kuckle push ups on sand paper.  It's working so far at toughening my skin.


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## ggg214 (Apr 17, 2008)

in my knowledge, the real iron palm&#65288;&#38081;&#30722;&#25484;&#65289;is not only required to hiting trees or something. most iron palm training system needs special chinese medicine, to dip your hands in. other than the external training way, special chinese medicine is more important and safe for your training and is also the symbole of the lineage. 
also in another kind of palm training name red sand palm(&#32418;&#30722;&#25484;,hong sha zhang), i have been told that it's more like qi gong training.
this is my knowledge about your topic. may it help you in further training.


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## Keetoowah (Apr 19, 2008)

Thanks, GGG.  I am aware that you have to use dit da jow - and not just any dit da jow.  I've got a good source for dit da jow.  There is a chef at a Chinese restaurant here that does TCM and also does medicinal cooking - but he has never studied kung fu as he said he never wanted to distract himself from cooking and healing.  I had a brief conversation with him and I plan on visiting his TCM shop and seeing about various ailments.   I am continuing with my reading on the subject of Iron Palm but until I can get proper tutelage I have resolved to simply focus on toughening my skin - and leaving my bones and muscles as they are.


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## ggg214 (Apr 19, 2008)

you are welcome, keetoowah.


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