# Receiving Black Belt in multiple arts



## Kempojujutsu (Jun 17, 2003)

Here is a question that I have been pondering. Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different) Would it take someone one who already has a black belt the same amount of time to receive a black belt in Style B. As it would someone just starting out in the Martial arts.  I believe someone could study a second art and it could take half or less the time.  Now I know there are different variables to each art. The amount of training time is the most deciding factor. But your average martial artist would trains 2-3 days in a dojo and does maybe sometime at home.


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## tonbo (Jun 17, 2003)

Well, you probably could argue that you could fly through material and get your belt quicker than a total newbie.  However, would you want to?  

We get people who are Black belts in other styles that come in to take Kenpo from our school from time to time.  We tell them all the same thing:  you will pick the material up quicker than someone who has had no training, but it will still take a fair amount of time to get to Black in this style.

It's just the way it works out.  If you want to truly train in the art, you should be willing to put in the time to get quality out of it, not just a new Black rank.

Just my opinion.

Peace--


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 17, 2003)

It depends:  Are you talking about switching from Tang Soo Do to Tae Kwon Do?  A talented, hard working indiviual could do it in a year.  Are you talking about switching from Tae Kwon Do to Kenpo?  Same individual would probably take 5 years.  Or are you talking about switching from Kenpo to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where it will probably take a shmoe like me at least 10 years.


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## bdparsons (Jun 17, 2003)

primarily on how similar the arts are. Are they basically different versions of the same art? Or are they based on totally different concepts and principles? My recommendation would actually be to venture into an art that is not similar to the one you hold rank in. Where's the fun in going through essentially the same thing, just arranged differently?

Either way, don't set a time frame. In fact, setting a time frame could do you more harm than good. There will be times when you greatly appreciate what your previous art taught you and other times when you'll be amazed at the differences your new art is teaching you. Enjoy the journey, no matter how long it takes.

Respects,
Bill


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## A.R.K. (Jun 17, 2003)

If the disciplines are vastly different i.e. a 'kicking' discipline vs a ground fighting discipline I would see the time eliments being normal.

However, you stated similar disciplines with the biggest differences being in forms etc.  If the individual shows proficiency in the new discipline and meets the necessary requirments I see no reason to hold them back in any way.  No legitimate reason. 

 :asian:


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 17, 2003)

Some of the arts I was talking about are Shotokan karate, Shorin Ryu, Okinawan Kempo all use Pinan Kata's and Nahanchi kata's up to Black belt. Some of the kata's have minor differences. Or Goju ryu, Isshin ryu, and Uechi ryu. I am not as fimilar with but use all of the goju ryu kata's. Could it be possible to acheive rank in one of these arts having study a very similar art in less time. The arts would have to be very close and not two completly different arts for some one to do this.
Bob:asian:


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## Turner (Jun 18, 2003)

If the arts are that similar, I believe that it would take less than a year.

I switched from Goju-ryu Karate to Tang Soo Do in which the forms were very similar except for the brown/red belt levels. Since they were so similar I was allowed (ok, yelled at and forced) to wear the black belt and just learn forms associated with the lower belts and clean up some of the minor stance variations.

I've found this to be the case with most schools I've attended. I enter and don't tell them my previously earned ranks, hoping to start at white belt but most see I have a little bit of skill and wind up requiring that I wear the black belt.

Now, if you cross train from Kenpo to BJJ like I did... expect to spend a lot of time wearing a white belt because you'll be so clueless! Even if you have experience with some form of Jujitsu...

Doug


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> *If the arts are that similar, I believe that it would take less than a year.
> 
> I switched from Goju-ryu Karate to Tang Soo Do in which the forms were very similar except for the brown/red belt levels. Since they were so similar I was allowed (ok, yelled at and forced) to wear the black belt and just learn forms associated with the lower belts and clean up some of the minor stance variations.
> ...



Had one of my Black belts go to BJJ school the other night for his 1st class. He has been grappling for about 2 years plus, any way. He was so far ahead of the White belts in that class. He said the instructor spend most of the time with his intermediate class, and that he show the class or help them out with there techniques. Yes I agree with that if the arts are similar it should not take as long to earn an advance rank or black belt rank. Now if you are talking about two competely different arts ie TKD and aikido then yes I would say you are on the 5 year plan or better.
Bob   :asian:


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## kkbb (Jun 18, 2003)

In my dojo... students form other systems are encouraged to join us.  They can be moved as quickly through the system as possible, upto their current rank in their old system.  This movement will depend on them.  They still have to perform all aspects of our system as they learn at, atleast at the belt level they are working for.  They can excel as long as all is "perportional."


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 18, 2003)

They say Hapkido comes from Aikijujutsu. So If you had a Black Belt in Aikijujutsu could you claim rank in Hapkido, or vise verse?
Bob  :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *It depends:  Are you talking about switching from Tang Soo Do to Tae Kwon Do?  A talented, hard working indiviual could do it in a year.  Are you talking about switching from Tae Kwon Do to Kenpo?  Same individual would probably take 5 years.  Or are you talking about switching from Kenpo to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where it will probably take a shmoe like me at least 10 years. *


Amen to that.


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## spook mma (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *They say Hapkido comes from Aikijujutsu. So If you had a Black Belt in Aikijujutsu could you claim rank in Hapkido, or vise verse?
> Bob  :asian: *



you wouldn't be able to claim rank, but how long do you think it would take to earn a black belt in hapkido if you were ranked in aikijujutsu?  similarly, how about a brown belt in bjj?  how long to achieve a black belt in judo?

i read somewhere that a black belt in judo has to compete as a purple (maybe brown???) belt in bjj tournaments.  does anyone know if there is truth to this?


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## MartialArtist (Jun 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by spook mma _
> *you wouldn't be able to claim rank, but how long do you think it would take to earn a black belt in hapkido if you were ranked in aikijujutsu?  similarly, how about a brown belt in bjj?  how long to achieve a black belt in judo?
> 
> i read somewhere that a black belt in judo has to compete as a purple (maybe brown???) belt in bjj tournaments.  does anyone know if there is truth to this? *


I doubt it's true, especially in the higher level tournaments.

The only place where I can see that is some deranged BJJ fanatic.


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## dearnis.com (Jun 19, 2003)

> i read somewhere that a black belt in judo has to compete as a purple (maybe brown???) belt in bjj tournaments. does anyone know if there is truth to this?




I dont know, and I dont train BJJ, BUT I could see this.  The issue is time in; BJJ just takes a crazy long time to promote people.  Think about it, students are deemed competent to teach at blue belt (as in with their own program).  Is that bad?  Maybe not after 3-4 years in, but that is the time frame for balck belt in many arts.  See how comparing the two is not really accurate.

It ties into the bigger thrread as well; some systems want 3-4 years to shodan, some want 5-6, and some are looking around 10.  Regardless of the belt color someone w/10 quality years WILL be ahead of someone w/ only 4-5.

And I am thinking in terms of legit training, not belt mills.


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## KenpoDragon (Jun 19, 2003)

I personally trained in Kenpo and Kali at the same time, 6 days a week 4 hours a day(dojo time) not including home practice. So I do believe if you train in martial arts already it is easier to learn a similar style, to the one that you've already trained in. But ultimately it comes down to your commitment level. I don't believe ANYONE should be given a Black Belt on prior knowledge. Nor do I believe that a real Black Belt should be able to be achieved in any less than 5 years. But this is just my opinion.

:asian:


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## Shinzu (Jun 19, 2003)

i would say if the arts are similar than it wouldnt take as long.  but if they are different you would need to start from scratch.

when i went from TSD to Kung Fu i needed to start over.  the basics i knew but the rest was different.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 19, 2003)

> Nor do I believe that a real Black Belt should be able to be achieved in any less than 5 years. But this is just my opinion



Kempodragon,

I understand where you are coming from.  But shouldn't alot be placed on one's abilities?  There are those that readily absorb information and can demonstrate proficency.  I have seen some arts hold an individual back that was more than ready for advancement because of the almighty $.  They seem to feel the longer one is kept at a particular rank, the longer they will stay in training and the longer they keep paying the monthly tuition.

Just a thought...

:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jun 19, 2003)

I think it depends on the individual systems and the schools as well as the simiarities. And then the level of the student who is presubably already blackbelt level. 

I've started over many times. I don't have a problem at all training somewhere and putting on a whitebelt. Recently I wore a whitebelt in BJJ for 3.5 years. 

Each system elevates my "martial individuality" in someway and I know of a few systems that I could pass the blackbelt test.

But that would not mean that I understood the essance of the art, but as far as technique is considered may pass the test.:asian:


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## Atlanta-Kenpo (Jun 19, 2003)

I started out in 1990 in EPAK and trained for 3 years until my instructor moved away.  The only other system around was a military instructor teaching US Armed Forces Karate wich was nothing but America Karate and I was promoted to 1st BLK by him (John Simeone 6th degree BB Ft Polk, LA) within a year and half.  I have since gone back to EPAK and have been training under Robert Ray in Atlanta GA for the past two years and will be testing for my 1st BLK next month.  So, I say it depends on the depth of knowledge and skill required to make BLK in that particular system.  As we all know, the requirments for 1st BLK is different between systems and for that matter schools too.

:asian:


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 19, 2003)

I earned dan rank in three different styles of Karate but had to start at zero each time I started at a new school even though they are all karate.


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2003)

I've trained in a variety of different arts. For the most part I've found that most instructors tend to encourage a cross training student to wear the rank that they've previously earned in another art. They are just required to stay at that rank until they have learned all of the information (basics, forms, self defense techniques, drills and principles) and skill required to be promoted. Depending on the similarities between the two arts this could be anywhere from several years to mere months. I've never seen an instructor fill out a certificate for equal rank.

I've met two instructors that have required the student to go back to white belt and start over no matter what. I tend to shy away from this type of instructor because it seems a little bit fishy. I want my journey to last as long as possible. It is a life long journey for me, no matter what so I really don't care about taking the extra time. It seems to me that instructors who force someone to go back to white belt is mostly looking after their own interests and not the interests of the student. Money... They want to be able to charge the testing fees.

Instructors have to worry about their student's egos. The ego has no real place in the martial arts, it is because of ego that we have so many sokes running around and so much political dissent in the arts. It is a shame, but we do have to worry about it. When someone has earned a certain rank, no matter the art, they are proud of it. To tell them that they need to wear a white belt again is basically telling them that all of their past training was a waste of time and they aren't going to take it very well. Allow the student the chance to be humble and remove their own belt from their waist and accept that they are ignorant of your art. To force someone to be humble is to humiliate them. It is never the instructors place to do that. As an instructor you wish to encourage humility and to encourage a person to realize their potential. Not to say that the work that they've done is worthless.


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## Disco (Jun 20, 2003)

Lots of good and interesting viewpoints. Now this is the kind of thread that I consider what MT is all about.

My $.02 worth. Training in a completely totally different style (ie. TKD to Aikido) you'll have to start at the beginning to understand the basic principles. That's not to say that at some place in time, within the scope of training, that the TKD skills won't be able to manifest themselves into the flow of the Aikido training. That's just an added bonus.

For styles that are similiar (exception forms). I personally place all striking arts into one basket. The viewpoints on the how and why's may differ, but the excecution of techniques are not that unsimiliar. Therefor, I would prefer to have that person wear the rank they attained and I would greatly anticipate that they would excell rather quickly through the assigned cirriculum. Now I know this statement will cause some irritation with some, but to me a block is a block, a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch. It's after the initial defensive movements that establishes the differences between the styles and that difference is just a preferance on how to dispatch the advisary. A rose comes in many colors, but it's still a rose. 

 Crosstraining to me is mandatory for understanding the true essance of the arts. From my readings, the Masters of old followed this practice, why should'nt we?
    :asian:


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## DAC..florida (Jun 20, 2003)

WOW Disco,

I couldnt of said it better myself, so I wont!
:asian:


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## andurilking2 (Jun 20, 2003)

i think it should take the same amount of time for each belt


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2003)

andurilking2, please elaborate, why do you believe it should take the same amount of time per each belt?


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## andurilking2 (Jun 20, 2003)

i beleive  each martial art is fairly unique and regaurdless of whether you know a jumping half crescent kick you should still relearn it according to the martial art that you are taking.


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## Turner (Jun 20, 2003)

Thanks, interesting perspective.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 20, 2003)

My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
bob   :asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by andurilking2 _
> *i beleive  each martial art is fairly unique and regaurdless of whether you know a jumping half crescent kick you should still relearn it according to the martial art that you are taking. *



I don't think its that simple. Theres more to consider.:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
> bob   :asian: *



You hit it on the money. Although there are differances and some people in here do know the differances in those styles mentioned. To the average person or martial artist from a completely differant style, they probably would not be able to notice the diffances at all.

A Shodan in Hohan Sokens Shorin Ryu should be able to pass a Shodan test in other branches of the Shorin Ryu tree with minimul changes. And Shorin Ryu is simiar to other styles too, such as Ryu Kyu Kempo I beleive. The same goes to the other styles that are similar because upline somewhere in time their lineages crossed paths. 

Some arts have only changed minimally over the years while others made dramatic changes. But if we are talking Karate with the Okinowan link, then we are all martially related (almost).

I don't beleive that there are any major differances to learn except at a higher level such as in the higher Dan ranks and that knowledge will be as good as your instructor.:asian:


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *My theory here is you put 5 different Shuri-Te style master out on the floor. To perform and all they did was kata, and basic techniques and self defense. Which one was Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. you probable could not till. They are all very close in the type of kata they did. What usually sets them apart is their interpretation of the kata. I feel that one could easily pick up another style.
> bob   :asian: *



You can tell the difference between Matsumra orthodox Shorin-ryu, Okinawan Kempo, Shorinji-ryu, Matsubayashi-ryu, Bugeikan, Ryukyu Shorin-ryu. 

For example some of them have kata that are the same and some that aren't, even the ones that are the same kata in name aren't don't the same way.
The kusanku done in one style is not always the same as in another.
The technique interpretation is very different too. I know this because I was a student of Mr. Nakamura/Mr. Oyata in Okinawa Kenpo and a student of Mr. Nagamine in Shorin Ryu.


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *A Shodan in Hohan Sokens Shorin Ryu should be able to pass a Shodan test in other branches of the Shorin Ryu tree with minimul changes. And Shorin Ryu is simiar to other styles too, such as Ryu Kyu Kempo I beleive. The same goes to the other styles that are similar because upline somewhere in time their lineages crossed paths.
> *




This is sort of true, but some of the basics are different as well.

Most Okinawan teachers won't give you much important information about their style unless they know you for a while.
They want to see what kind of person you are.


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## Shuri-te (Jun 20, 2003)

While many students move well from one Shorin Ryu system to another, some have real trouble. While the kata are done similarly, there are real differences. And the problem is that some students are resistant to change. They like the way they do particular techniques, and sometimes approach new ideas with resistance. There is a tendency to think their "way" is the correct way and have difficulty letting go. This can really slow the transition. 

And surprisingly, sometimes this is not that deliberate. They often cannot see how their movements differ from what is being taught. I have plenty of personal experience here because I frequent many different dojos. There have been numerous times where I have not seen how my movements differed from the Sensei's, even when the differences were fairly obvious. 

On the flip side, I have had many students from different styles come to my train in my dojo. In general, Shotokan students seem to have surprising difficulty changing from back stance to cat stance. Funny, I had problems doing the opposite.  

Also many systems have more significant differences than just kata. In some systems, they have their own sets of techniques that must be mastered. In Shidokan, a Kobayashi art, Seikichi Iha teaches sequences of bunkai that are little kata themselves, with techniques done against four attackers. 

In Okinawan Kempo, RyuTe, Seibukan and Koeikan, they practice bogu kumite, full contact karate with Kendo gear. It takes some real training to get good at Bogu.

In Bugeikan and RyuTe, there is a heavy emphasis on self defense applications. It's more like the old forms of ti. Locking techniques are far more numerous, and these take time to master if you are unfamiliar with them.  

Some systems have kobudo as part of the art (Matsumura Orthodox, RyuTe, Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu) and the kobudo kata are not shared from system to system as the empty hand are.

The point is that there is much to differentiate the Shorin Ryu arts. For a shodan entering one of these systems, they shouldn't be overconfident about how soon equivalent rank will come. While it won't take as long to get to Shodan is it does from white belt, it can, in some dojos, take longer than a year.


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## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shuri-te _
> *
> In Okinawan Kempo, RyuTe, Seibukan and Koeikan, they practice bogu kumite, full contact karate with Kendo gear. It takes some real training to get good at Bogu.
> 
> ...



When I trained Okinawa Kenpo in Okinawa under Mr. Nakamura and Mr Oyata the emphasis on bogu training was to improve power and accuracy in punching. Their idea was if you could do damage to someone that was wearing the bogu gear you would have no trouble in real life situations.
Training in bogu then was very difficult because there were many good fighters in the dojo at the time, people like Joe Lewis and so on were there in the dojo often. I train in Mr. Oyata's art that is now caled RyuTe but was formerly called Ryukyu Kempo with Mr. Rousselot, his training is identical to what I did in Okinawa back in the 1960's, very serious, very intense. Although I am his sempai because I trained with his teacher, Mr. Oyata, back in the 1960s and got shodan, he is my sempai in technique and skill. He is very skilled.

The head of Bugeikan is a good friend of Mr. Oyata who is the head of RyuTe. I think they even made a martial arts association together many years ago.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 22, 2003)

Once you have gotten to Black belt level,I feel that it may be easier to pick up/ figure out techniques and theories from different styles of MA. Not saying you have master that style or anything. Any Opinons on this?
Bob:asian:


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## Shuri-te (Jun 22, 2003)

KempoJuJutsu said:



> Once you have gotten to Black belt level,I feel that it may be easier to pick up/ figure out techniques and theories from different styles of MA. Not saying you have master that style or anything. Any Opinons on this?


Let's go back to your original statement: 


> Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different)


I think there are lots of variables but two seem to me to be most important. 1. How much a system pays attention to refined movement, and 2. How much grappling is in a system.

Many systems, even with different kata may have a lot of similarity. There is a lot of block-kick-punch karate out there where you learn basic movements and combinations, and do a lot of kumite. A lot of this might be pretty similar in another system and much of this might be transferable. 

However, there are some schools where there simply is not an emphasis on refinement of technique. And if you come from one of those systems, and go to one where everything has to be done just so, then it can be an uphill battle. However, if you came from a system where the teacher and senior students were sticklers on getting things right, then you learn to have an eye for how movements are done, and that can be transferable. If you look at kata in school A and think "clean kata" and you can look at kata in school B and say "sloppy kata", you will know that the student from school A will have an easier going than a student from school B when switching schools. 

But I think the biggest difference is the amount of grappling a school does. These skills are completely foreign to those that don't practice them, and many, many schools practice little or no grappling. In comparison, there are many systems that have both the block-kick-strike of karate, and lots of grappling as well. It's similar to the MMA approach, which is done increasingly in traditional karate dojos. 

Here's one skill that JuJutsu people learn early. They relax, and use their bodies to do much of the work. Not only is it important to the execution of traditional JuJutsu techniques, but in randori, tension is your enemy. You have to be supple.  But some karateka never learn this skill. Some of these kick-punch dojo students want to flex for every part of every technique they do and put arm power in everything, just as if they were doing their blocks and strikes. Some of these students can have significant difficulty making the transition to more grappling oriented karate systems. 

I think in the future, we should see more differentiation in the arts, as instructors in block-kick-strike dojos get exposed to grappling and start incorporating more and more into their art. One motivation instructors have in many areas is that they are in a competitive martial arts market. Teachers are losing students to BJJ, and MT and other arts in part because these systems are more tuned to street fighting than to the fantasy fighting of jiyu kumite found in traditional karate schools, where one strike to the solar plexus is the goal of the fighting. 

In my town we have a really traditional TKD master who has incorporated groundfighting into his curriculum. This guy is about as straightline TKD as you get. Heavy, heavy focus on tournament sparring, and no surprises, his students clean up at competitions. 

But he too has been bitten by the MMA bug. He watches the UFC events just like the rest of us and realizes there is lots more to fighting than flashy kicking. And he, like many of us, realize we are doing a great disservice to our students if we turn them out on the street thinking that simple block-kick-strike techniques, and kumite is going to prepare them to defend against a good street fighter. 

IMO, as we see this increasing use of grappling in more traditional arts, it will make the transition from a non-grappling system to a grappling one, more difficult.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 23, 2003)

Interesting thread.

I've had experience in several different areas or points that have been brought up on this thread through out my martial arts journey and so here is my .02 cents for what it is worth.

I have been involved with the MA for over 20 years now, and due to moving and such I have gotten the opportunity to have trained in several different systems/styles and earned instructors rank in a few of them.

1) I earned a brown belt in American TKD and relocated and started studying Wado ryu.  There the instructor kept me at that rank but I needed to test in a certain amount of time and learn the material for that rank. 

2) When due to relocating I have worked out with American TKD schools I have worn my rank in American TKD.

3) At an Isshinryu school that I helped teach a American TKD class, when I wanted to take Isshinryu under the instructor I bought a white belt and showed up for his Isshinryu class.  He made me wear my black belt.

4) I took Inosanto blend Kali from an instructor for a while (year and half to two years or so) and then switched to Presas Arnis under Hock Hochheim.  I tested for Lakan (1st black)(another year and 1/2) and had GM Remy watch the tape of the test (he had airplane trouble so he couldn't be there for it) and he signed my certificate.  

5) Prior to taking my Lakan test under Hock, I was tested as a blue belt in Modern Arnis at one of the camps, then three months later tested for Lakan (under Hock).  However I was told that Hock wasn't teaching me Modern Arnis, that it was different therefore I was only a blue belt in Modern Arnis.  (It was three years later that I tested for Lakan in Modern Arnis.

6) However GM Ernesto Presas kept me at the rank I received from Hock in his system of Arnis.

7) Now wanting to get some more training in (on a more regular basis) I've just started taking a class in Pekiti Tirsa Kali.  As a beginner once more.

On how long it will take a person to switch from one style to another depends upon your experience (background), commitment in learning the new system and the emptying of your cup of your old system.

In PT Kali they don't ever (I'm told) grab the stick since they treat it as a bladed weapon.  Well this negates the majority of my Presas Arnis (Modern Arnis and Kombatan Arnis) since they treat a stick as a stick plus they treat it as a bladed weapon at times (depends upon the technique being practiced).  Also the techniques and stratagies behind the system are different, some striking and foot work differences, knife work as well.  So in order to learn this system or to train with them I must do their techniques in class (or I would be disruptive) so I must empty my cup.  If I won't do this than it won't work.

Switching from Akido to TKD or vice a versa is along the same lines.  One art hits and kicks and the other blends and throws.  Ones hard (TKD) and one is softer in response (Akido) therefore I think you again must empty your cup and learn the one art.

Is it better to learn one system or several (Jack of all trades and master at none or Master of one)?  It's up to the individual.  The Isshinryu instructor has basically except for a brief period where he earned a 2nd dan in TKD) has mainly studied Isshinryu.  And he is happy and a pheunomial martial artist.  He has probably forgotton all of the TKD he learned 20 years ago.  Just like now I have put aside the majority of the TKD I learned as well.

However it was the TKD and Wado ryu base that taught me to move and such that I was able to apply in my Arnis training.  And my Arnis training helped me to understand my TKD basics, forms, better as well.

How long it takes is up to the person and the systems he is studying.

Respectfully submitted
Mark


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## Mr.karate (Jul 9, 2003)

I'm just wondering if two arts are so simillar what is the point of trying to get a second blackbelt why not just try to further yourself in one main art. The only real reason I see to studying more then one art is if one is for hand to hand combat and the other is a style of kobudo just my opinion. What do others her think?

Justin


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## Shuri-te (Jul 10, 2003)

Justin,

There are lots of reasons. Sometimes you move. Sometimes your dojo closes up or your teacher moves. Sometimes you find someone in a related system that might have much to offer, or teach a class more suited to your desires. (More or less kumite, more or less kata, more or less self-defense.)

And the unfortunate truth is that sometimes you may have an experience that leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Maybe the charges are unfair, or some students are allowed to beat on others unfairly, or maybe your Sensei is just not the greatest guy in the world.


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## DAC..florida (Jul 10, 2003)

I have a black belt in three different styles, they are all similiar and I have no problem's or complecation with this.
 :asian:


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## Mr.karate (Jul 10, 2003)

In those types of situations yes I would agree. What I meant was that if all things were going good for a person were they are what would be the point then? Why would you do it? The reason I say this is because if you think about it a black belt only means that you have a basic understanding of the style. In that case what would be the point of going from style to style just learning basic things instead of sticking to one style and trying to master it?

Justin


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 10, 2003)

In my previous post I mentioned about the Isshinryu instructor that I know.  And he was happy doing the same style for many years (30+) and except for period of time when he took the TKD/hapkido he has only really studied Isshinryu.  Many years he had only himself to train out in his yard or something.

And to be honest he was one of the most knowledgable (deep thinking) martial artists that I have ever met.  On top of that he was one of the must humble and friendly instructors that I have met as well.  Again I believe this came from his training and his love for sharing the marrtial arts to whomever was interested.

My path has been different due to my moving around (work) and finding another system(s) that interested me.  However ultimately I think you can come to the same point only you get there differently.

Mark


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2003)

If you are already a BB in one style, it should be pretty easy for you to adapt to the next one you choose to study, providing it is along the same lines.  If you do Tang Soo Do, and then start TKD, the kicks are gonna be pretty similar.  Now, if you go from a standing art to a grappling art, well then of course, this will be different.  

As long as you are able to have an understanding of each art, then why not study more than one.  It will make you a more well rounded fighter!

MJS


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## twinkletoes (Jul 11, 2003)

I think people are already keying in on the important factor:

it depends how "similar" "similar" is.

If you learn 2 styles in which the basics are the same (i.e. 2 different but closely related schools of karate) you will probably learn them very quickly.  The 2nd one will be a snap.

If you learn 2 unrelated styles (Kenpo and BJJ) it will about as much time as anyone else to become proficient at the 2nd style, with maybe a little time reduction because you are motivated, dedicated, and accustomed to being a student, and how the whole learning process goes.

If you learn 2 complementary styles (Arnis and anything, really) it could even move more quickly.  By complimentary I mean that the concepts are similar, the basics are not contradictory, and there is little overlap otherwise.  I know someone who got black belts in Kenpo and Arnis within 5 years (at a Kenpo school where the average is 8-10).  And this is an adult who had never studied before.  Wow!

If you learn 2 _contradictory_  styles you are in trouble.  By this I mean 2 styles where the basic movements or concepts are at odds.  For example, if you were learning Karate and TKD, and your Karate sensei wanted to see your side kick look like this, and your TKD instructor wanted it to look like that.  This would drive the average person nuts, and it's why crosstraining is often not suggested until the person has a firm foundation in 1 art.

~TT


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## A.R.K. (Jul 22, 2003)

Shuri Te hit on a good point..



> But I think the biggest difference is the amount of grappling a school does. These skills are completely foreign to those that don't practice them, and many, many schools practice little or no grappling.



A fellow Deputy has a daughter in TKD that is *very good*  in the sport version.  And I mean GOOD!  He is thinking of building an addition to his house for all of her trophies and such.  She is about 16 yoa.

He brought her to our training one day because we're friends and he knows what I teach.  That particular day we were performing a simple head takedown that's been affectionately dubbed 'the Linda Blair'    I demostrated the technique and her eyes got as big as saucer dishes and she choked out a meek 'I have to put my hands on someone'?  The concept of actual grappling was so foreign because of the sport tippy-tap mind set.  She learned what I hope was a valuable lesson that day, and I did as well.

:asian:


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## MJS (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Shuri Te hit on a good point..
> 
> 
> ...



I've seen many people do things very similar to this girl.  They seem so timid and afraid to apply a choke or make some light contact when doing SD.  The sad thing is, is that these people walk around with this false confidence that they will actually be able to defend themselves in a real situation.  They're going to be in for a big surprise.  You will fight like you train!

Mike


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## Kempojujutsu (Sep 1, 2003)

Was reading an article on jiujitsu.net I believe. The article was intitled Training with legitmated BJJ instructor. The story starts out how the Brazilians are worried that us American's will take their art and start calling it something else. (Side note which is what I do already since I have no Brazilian Blood in me) Any way the article goes on say this what the Brazilian did to the Japanese. Studying Judo or jujutsu and then decided to call it BJJ. I thought that was kind of funny. It goes on about how some people don't train very long in BJJ and start up there own style of Martial arts. It also talked about how Carlos SR. possible trained in Japanese Jujutsu for 2 years or less. So basic understanding of the story, is the things that the Gracie's and Brazilian Jujutsu are complaining about are some of the same things they did.  Makes you think
Bob:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Sep 2, 2003)

Somebody wrote something similar once, but they touched upon the reasons that the Gracies had such good circumstances for developing their own art.  These included:

-There are so very many family members who trained (even 5 brothers in the early days) which meant there was always someone to train with or practice with.

-Their distance from the Japanese customs and reverance for the art's tradition made it easy for them to modify or discard techniques that proved ineffective, because they didn't feel any emotional attachment to the "traditional way."

-They did all this within a society that welcomed and encouraged the development, through its constant supply of individuals who would come to their school and test them.

These and other factors contributed highly to their ability to develop and refine techniques.  

Now, an interesting idea would be this:  Certainly BJJ is substantially changed from Judo and Japanese Jiu-jitsu; how much change would an American have to introduce before his new study was different enough that it was no longer BJJ?  (We may have to take this up on another forum....)

~TT


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> *.....Studying Judo or jujutsu and then decided to call it BJJ. I thought that was kind of funny. It goes on about how some people don't train very long in BJJ and start up there own style of Martial arts. It also talked about how Carlos SR. possible trained in Japanese Jujutsu for 2 years or less. So basic understanding of the story, is the things that the Gracie's and Brazilian Jujutsu are complaining about are some of the same things they did.  Makes you think
> Bob:asian: *



Not studying BJJ or really knowledgable about the system, except for what little I read back in the early 90's about it.  I thought that the family trained privately with a japanese instructor.  Helio Gracie I think was the smallest one of the sons to take it, yet it was he (and his sons) who eventually spread the art that people know today.

I think Helio due to his smaller size made the japanese jujitsu art work for him by having to learn the art's principles and then apply them to his body size and structure.  Then of course he learned how to really apply the art and make it his own different from what he learned by applying the art in competitions and later from the challanges at their school.  

And I think that is the key learning the art/system so well that you make it your own.  This is different than studying a multitude of different arts and only learning the basics and then creating your own system.

Mark


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## twinkletoes (Sep 4, 2003)

Helio's older brother Carlos (Sr.) was the only one to train with Mitsuo Maeda.  Carlos, in turn, taught all his younger brothers except for Helio, who was considered too sickly to participate.  The story goes that one day it was time to teach class and no other brother could be found, so Helio went out on the mat and taught an extremely technical lesson, just from watching his brothers over time.  From then on, he became the real technician of the bunch.  It is his sons who are the most well known in the family.

Helio is generally credited with the most advances in the system, due (as you mention) to his necessity for leverage with his small frame.

Sources disagree, but many people say that Carlos studied for less than a full year under Maeda, and that Maeda was often abroad during this period.  This would place even more of the development in the hands of 2 generations of Gracies.  

And since we're talking rank, Carlos received his black belt, and in turn, ranked his brothers.  I'm sure some would say that there is no precedent for the brothers to be high ranking black belts now (with Helio ranked at 10th) if they none of them ever received higher than shodan under their Japanese mentor (and that was only Carlos).  On the other hand, I can think of few contemporary Martial Artists who could deserve it less.

Certainly gives you a fresh look at the idea of lineage (and rank), and how absurd the idea can be.  

~TT


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## Mark Lynn (Sep 4, 2003)

A similar story is told about sensei Funokoshi's wife in Funokoshi's book Karate Do my way of Life. [ Forgive any spelling errors please].  How his wife use to watch class from the roof of their house while he taught in the court yard/yard during the night.  One day he was late and the student(s) showed up and she taught the class till he got there.


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## twinkletoes (Sep 4, 2003)

That's awesome.  I have not heard that one before.

~TT


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## MichiganTKD (May 14, 2004)

First, I don't believe at all in training in two or more arts until you have attained 4th Dan in at least one. Practicing one style seriously consumes a great deal of your physical and mental energy. And now you want to try two? Not to say that having an understanding of elements of other styles after BB isn't helpful. It is, but it is your Instructor's job to show you these elements.

Second, I would not recommend learning another style similar to your main style (i.e. Tae Kwon Do to Tang Soo Do or Karate). Why? Because when you learn TKD or TSD or Shotokan you are training your body to move, twist, punch, kick, block, and think a certain way. A kick is NOt a kick, and a block is NOT a block regardless of where you learn it. Each style is unique. Pick one style's approach to technique, but stay with that style. Otherwise, your body will be forced to learn two different, and not usually complimentary, versions of technique. Additionally, if you are studying a similar style, you will always be comparing what they do with what you are used to doing.

Third, new style new rank. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if you are a Master Instructor in Tae Kwon Do. You want to start Kenpo, TSD, or Shotokan? Put on your new white belt and leave your attitude and ego at the door. I began aikido training previously because I had reached 4th Dan in TKD and wanted to try something new. TKD is the only striking art I want to practice, so I decided to try a soft style to avoid any confusion.

These guys who claim black belts in 3 or more arts make me laugh. You are only fooling yourself. How good are they really going to be?


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## MJS (May 15, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> These guys who claim black belts in 3 or more arts make me laugh. You are only fooling yourself. How good are they really going to be?



I wouldnt fool yourself into thinking that they are not going to be good.  I have a 3rd black in Kenpo, and am close to getting my black in Arnis.  I'd say that my skills in both are very good!!  I also train under someone who has mult. rankings.  He has produced many excellent fighters, and his skill level far surpasses many others that I have seen.

Mike


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## MichiganTKD (May 16, 2004)

Something I have noticed is a tendency, often demonstrated on various Instructor's web sites, to claim:
 1. 9th Dan in Tae Kwon Do
 2. 7th Dan in Hapkido
 3. 7th Dan in Kendo
 4. 6th Dan in Kung Fu
 5. 6th Dan in Judo
 Yada Yada Yada... You get the idea.

 9th Dan in TKD (TSD, Shotokan etc.) means you have dedicated your life to the practice, teaching, and development of your Art. By definition, there aren't going to be very many 9th, 7th, or 6th Dans. How can you dedicate your life to Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kendo, Kung Fu, AND whatever other style you claim to practice. 

 Second, how would you have time to practice all those even if you wanted to? 9th Dan requires about 40 years of your life, 7th Dan about 30, 6th Dan about 25. Unless you're going to live to be 500 years old, it cannot be done. Not well anyway. Doesn't matter whether you're American or Korean. A fake's a fake.


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## MJS (May 16, 2004)

Michigan TKD-  Check your pvt. messages.  

Mike


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## terryl965 (May 18, 2004)

Well he we are again first off, there are so many honorary black belts that are giving to those that help preserve the art from other organizations, also you can study more than one art if you first achieve a high level from one art,second most schools will give you your rank while you train in there style which means you hold multiple black belts. Not alway what you know but who you know. God Bless America


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## Mark Lynn (May 20, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> First, I don't believe at all in training in two or more arts until you have attained 4th Dan in at least one. Practicing one style seriously consumes a great deal of your physical and mental energy. And now you want to try two? Not to say that having an understanding of elements of other styles after BB isn't helpful. It is, but it is your Instructor's job to show you these elements.
> 
> Second, I would not recommend learning another style similar to your main style (i.e. Tae Kwon Do to Tang Soo Do or Karate). Why? Because when you learn TKD or TSD or Shotokan you are training your body to move, twist, punch, kick, block, and think a certain way. A kick is NOt a kick, and a block is NOT a block regardless of where you learn it. Each style is unique. Pick one style's approach to technique, but stay with that style. Otherwise, your body will be forced to learn two different, and not usually complimentary, versions of technique. Additionally, if you are studying a similar style, you will always be comparing what they do with what you are used to doing.
> 
> ...



Michigan TKD 
I agree with probably the spirit of your post but not your points.  In your more recent post you (question) reference the high ranking BB grades that some teachers have and coming from that angle is why I say I agree probably with you in the spirit of your post.  But I'd like to point out what I disagree with in this post.

 Why 4th dan?  I understand having a solid foundation in a primary art first (and I agree) however is 4th dan the majic number?  In some systems it takes 2-3 years to get 1st Dan others like under my instructor it took me 7 years.  It was about 7-8 years later that I earned 2nd.  I think I had a firm foundation in one system.  However during this time I moved (relocated to different cities) 3X and where I went I found a good school but not nessecarily the style I was taking, but I always practiced my katas and techniques from my original teacher.

A kick is not a kick and punch is not a punch and a block is not a block etc. etc.  Again I agree to a point that there is a higher level of learning to each of these moves but to the basic beginner and in fact to many instructors thats all they are and all they ever will be.  After moving (relocating) and traveling around to check out other schools you might be surprised how many people learned a technique one way and the standard application that this move in this form is a block (insert what ever technique you want) and thats it.  Then they pass that down to their students and they become instructors and they pass it down and so on.  Pretty soon that is the gospell truth that is a block and only a block.  The high ranking instructor might not know any other interpretation.

In regards to the styles unique way of moving etc. etc. yeah I agree, but disagree on your point.  I have studied American versions of TKD and Wa do ryu (Japanese karate) and I have trained with and worked out with people of Korean TKD, Japanese, and Okinawan karate styles and I don't see a huge difference between many techniques.  Some but not much between the core basic techniques.  However there is a bigger difference between say Akido and TKD (do I block or do I blend with the person?).  You are right about different fighting stratagies (do I block or do I throw?) though.  I now study the FMA and one of the styles that I study is Modern Arnis.  GM Remy Presas was fantastic with his locking skills, you touch the man and you were locked down (if he wanted), anyway I also for a time studied Kali under an instructor in the JKD Inosanto blend system.  So I went to several of Guro Inosanto's seminars where the emphasis was more on striking.  Now I might get the same response (as in the from of a block,) but in MA I'd learn to lock and in JKD I'd hit.  I always wondered why someone as great as Bruce Lee wouldn't lock if GM Remy did it so effortlessly, I mean I had never seen Guro Inosanto teach the locking techniques to these types of blocks.  Till on a video in a interview Guro Inosanto made a comment about how Bruce was getting into finger locks and he could lock people, but Guro Inosanto didn't feel he had the speed so he didn't teach it.    

Starting out as a white belt.  Again I agree but in two different times when I came into a school the head instructor had me wear my earned rank, once as a brown belt and once as a black belt.  In fact the one instructor had me remove my white belt and put on my black.

Got to head to work
Mark

please forgive any and all speeling errors it's early, I'm late for work, and my hand kept falling asleep.


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## marshallbd (May 20, 2004)

tonbo said:
			
		

> Well, you probably could argue that you could fly through material and get your belt quicker than a total newbie.  However, would you want to?
> 
> We get people who are Black belts in other styles that come in to take Kenpo from our school from time to time.  We tell them all the same thing:  you will pick the material up quicker than someone who has had no training, but it will still take a fair amount of time to get to Black in this style.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%!!!!  I have no black ranking in any style but someday I will....I am willing to wait and earn it properly and learn everything I can to make the art I study a part of me and me a part of it....2 years or 20 years down the road....it doesn't matter to me....it's going to be the journey that keeps me there....life is experience/experience is life!!! :asian:


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## Shinzu (May 25, 2004)

true.  just because you have leaned the techniques, it doesn't mean you have learned the art.  each is different and has its' own history.  thus it should be treated with individual respect.  it's not a race,  it's a way of life.

 :asian:


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## Phoenix44 (Jul 1, 2004)

Rank is just that, rank.  I know most of you don't feel this way, but a lot of you are talking as though a "black belt" was some sort of ultimate achievement...and it's not.  It simply means that you've gained some mastery of the basics of that particular art.  Hopefully, you don't just take your belt and go home...you continue training.  But for MOST arts, there's no applicability of rank to any other art--or even necessarily to any other dojo in the same art.

Sure, if you know one martial art, you may have the fitness level, understanding of mechanics, attitude, and even some technique, which makes it easier to learn another art.  But, bottom line, (I'll quote a friend here):

"I don't care if you got your black belt in 3 years...as long as you understand that you've only been training for 3 years."

Likewise, if you've trained *sincerely* for 15 years, whether in one art or three arts (I'm not talking about dojo shopping) you're probably pretty skilled even wearing a blue belt in your current art.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 3, 2004)

Kempojujutsu said:
			
		

> Here is a question that I have been pondering. Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different) Would it take someone one who already has a black belt the same amount of time to receive a black belt in Style B. As it would someone just starting out in the Martial arts. I believe someone could study a second art and it could take half or less the time. Now I know there are different variables to each art. The amount of training time is the most deciding factor. But your average martial artist would trains 2-3 days in a dojo and does maybe sometime at home.


Hi,

I encounter this question from the curious from time to time.  It has been my understanding, and my experience, that it takes an average of ten years to earn a shodan (1st degree black belt) in Judo and Jiu-jitsu; and five years (or less) in Karate or Tae Kwon Do.

These are the ranges which I expect a proficient practitioner of any martial art to have practiced before I consider them competent.

Now if it takes an enthusiast between 5-10 years of hard training and competition (plus a few street fights) to become competent in one martial art, how in the world does one acquire black belts in several different styles?

I am very suspicious when I walk down the street of my hometown (Boston) and see some of  these martial arts schools teach: Shaolin Kung fu, Muy Thai, Judo, Karate, Bando, Ninjitsu, boxing, and yoga, all by the same instructor!  And other schools list several more different and equally divergent styles that they claim expertise.  I usually just walk past these storefronts without visiting.

A European just started teaching Shorinji Kempo in the Boston area (Cambridge), I visited him and check him out, and thankfully he is legitimate!

Billy Blanks used to have his dojo about 12 miles outside of Boston in a city called Quincy, and all he taught was Kempo and he was very good.  Tohoku Judo Club is outside of Boston in Somerville, all they teach is straight Judo, and they are formidable.

So the point of this story is that it is inevitable that if you study multiple martial arts, one or more of your skills is going to suffer, or you end up liking one style over another and devote yourself to that one style.


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 4, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> 1) I encounter this question from the curious from time to time.  It has been my understanding, and my experience, that it takes an average of ten years to earn a shodan (1st degree black belt) in Judo and Jiu-jitsu; and five years (or less) in Karate or Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> ...



Hi Kevin

I inserted numbers into your post so I could address them.

1) 10 years for a BB in judo (?), I think it depends upon your school and your competing.  I haven't studied judo so I might be TOTALLY wrong here, however I thought you earned your ranking through competing.

5 years or less for a BB in TKD or karate this is more like it however in my experience in seeing different schools 2-4 years is more like it (with 4 years being on the high end and the least common).

2) I would agree here.  I think you need at least that amount of time to start to understand what your art is all about and to be able to teach it or pass it on to someone else.

3)  How many street fights?     I guess I don't qualify, since I've only been involved in 2-4 and those were when I was pretty early in my MA studies.

It's not that hard really to obtain BBs in different styles.  Don't get me wrong here if the styles are similar then you can execute the techniques pretty easily and move up the ranks.

If you have anytime in a system of TKD (let's take a form of American TKD, American TKD is a system that was based on Korean TKD but over time has changed and the instructors have from their own groups, asscociations etc. etc. and are not belonging to a group or association that is run from Korea.) you can probably go into another system and in six months or so be up to your level in your previous system in the new system.  Front stance is similar in each system, back stance, blocks etc. etc.  The self defense techniques will be similar (probably) and so on.

If you take different arts such as TKD and jujitsu than it will take longer, however similar arts and it won't take as long.

4)  Again it depends upon the school.  Many times the schools in order to keep the doors open sublease their space to different instructors so they might teach Thai Boxing class on X night but it might be taught by Y instructor and not the owner of the school.

However the instructor might teach his primary art (maybe his first art) to keep the doors open and the second art (the one he loves) as part of his curriculmn.  Say his first art was TKD and it's the most popular (keeps the doors open) and he has been practicing the art since he was a kid.  So in his  
20's he discovers Thai Boxing.  He enjoys the workout and he wants to get better so he begins teaching it as a side course at his school.  Is there something wrong with this?  Believe me to the rank beginner coming through the doors of his school they won't know or care that he has only recently taken Thai boxing because they won't see a difference he'll still be good at both kicking and punching due to his experience in TKD.

5)  All a person needs is one style, however I still believe that a person needs some things outside of his style to keep the ideas coming in, the mental gears turning so to speak.

6) I agree totally with your statement here.  My first system was American TKD/karate and I earned my 1st BB there.  My love has been the Filipino Martial Arts and I've devoted the last 10 years to studying those systems earning BB (instructor) ranks in two systems (these are similar styles).  However I can still teach the American TKD and up until just a couple of years ago did although every chance I got I practiced and taught the FMA.

However do I do my jump turn kicks anymore?  Has my roundhouse kick sufffered by TKD standards?  Will I look like my rank (3rd dan, we Amercians use Japanese terms for our rank based on a Korean martial art  :boing2: ) if I competed?  Yes to the first two and no to the third.  So yes my TKD suffers.

Submitted with repsect
Mark  Lynn


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 4, 2004)

Hi all

Does having multiple black belt in different styles help trhe martial artist or hinder him?  Many seem to be saying yes that it does.  However I think it depends on several different factors.

Lets look to history shall we?

It was common during the old days for students to learn from their instructor up to a point and then train with another instructor who would possibly teach them a different style or type of martial art.

Please forgive the following spelling errors since I'll be using names that are from a foreign language.
1) Kano Jigori founder of Judo studied several different classic styles of ju-jutsu and changed the teaching to elimnate the more lethal aspects of the art and called his art ju-do.

2)Funakoshi Gichin- in his book (Karate Do MY Way of Life) tells about him taking lessons from different masters.  Founder of Shotokan karate

3) Hideonori Otsuka founder of Wado ryu karate studied a system and was a instructor in ju jutsu (master instructor I believe) when he saw Funakoshi sensei in an demonstration and then switched over to karate.  And then made his own system Wado after having a fall out with Funakoshi sensei.

4) Ueshiba Morihei - studied several styles of aiki-ju-jutsu, primarily though daito-ryu and he created his system of Aikido.  However he also studied the spear, jo (4 ft. short staff), and the sword.

5) Several of the okinawan masters studied Gong Fu (kung fu, wushu whatever) in china as well as the native systems of Okinawa (tote, tudi?) from which came karate as we know it today.

From the more modern instructors
1) GM Remy Presas studied different styles of arnis (FMAs), his families style, Balintawak escrima, also judo, and karate and he created Modern Arnis.

2) Don Draeger (one of the foremost modern authorities on the martial arts and martial cultures) studied several different japanese systems (Shindo Muso ryu Jodo), I think judo and possibly karate.  Again earning teaching grades in multiple systems.

3) Master Jung Nam (taken from Hoshinsul Conceptual Self Defense) (1988 edition)  taught TKD, Hapkido and Yoga at college.  Currently holds a 8th degree black belt in TKD, BB in Judo and BB in Hapkido. 

4) Dr. Kim (taken from the same book) is currently one of three Judo masters in Korea (8th dan), and a 9th degree BB in TKD.  "He also holds master's ratings in several other martial arts."

5) Dan Anderson - American karate or TKD BB and huge competitor in the 70's and 80's and a senior master in Modern Arnis under GM Remy Presas.

6) Dan Inosanto - BB under Ed Parker and Bruce Lee's long time student.  One of the foremost authorities on JKD and conceptual martial arts, filipino martial arts, and martial arts in general.

And the list goes on and on.  Just do some research it is as common back in the old days as it is today to cross train.  The systems today that people say you shouldn't or couldn't cross train in, or the sytems that are complete and you don't need to cross train are some of the very systems that the founders created on their own by cross training.

While I agree that many people today that have multiple BBs and 10th dans in several systems could be bogus. It doesn't mean that everyone is.  I think that if given the chance to study under any of these men I listed, anyone on this thread would be a fool to pass up that chance because they saw they had multiple black belts and didn't think that a person could receive multiple BBs so they are bogus.

What they do have is years and years of training, study, and dedication to their ideal of praciticing the martial arts. 

Submitted with respect
Mark Lynn


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 4, 2004)

I also do study three but slightly different Kenpo Arts. Jun Bao Wu Shu(James Ibaro states Kenpo came from this system), American Kenpo, Five Animal Kenpo(this form of Kenpo enhances Jun Bao Wu Shu since both are based on Kung-Fu system). They are each Kenpo but different with emphasis on different areas of Training. 

Once Blackbelt is obtained in each of them. It may take 5 years but once done You are a better Martial Artist in my opinion. SGM Parker encouraged cross training to learn about other Arts.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Kane (Jul 4, 2004)

I have experience in this. When I got my Ju Jitsu black belt it took me still around the same amount of time to get my judo black belt. However, it was MUCH simpler to learn the moves from judo since the form of Ju Jitsu I learned emphasized a lot of grappling. Im pretty sure if it was the reason of the arts had a lot of similarities is what made to simple to learn it later on.

So basically you might learn it faster, but I dont think the instructors will move you up just because you are a fast learner. And you could only learn the moves fast in another art only if the style is similar i.e. grappling arts with grappling arts and striking arts with striking arts.

I started Tae Kwon Do one year ago, and Im not learning the moves any faster than someone who hasnt done any Martial Arts before. Meaning because this is the first striking art I am doing, it is going to be not easier nor harder.


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## Mark Lynn (Jul 5, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> I have experience in this. 1) When I got my Ju Jitsu black belt it took me still around the same amount of time to get my judo black belt. However, it was MUCH simpler to learn the moves from judo since the form of Ju Jitsu I learned emphasized a lot of grappling. Im pretty sure if it was the reason of the arts had a lot of similarities is what made to simple to learn it later on.
> 
> 2) So basically you might learn it faster, but I dont think the instructors will move you up just because you are a fast learner. And you could only learn the moves fast in another art only if the style is similar i.e. grappling arts with grappling arts and striking arts with striking arts.
> 
> 3) I started Tae Kwon Do one year ago, and Im not learning the moves any faster than someone who hasnt done any Martial Arts before. Meaning because this is the first striking art I am doing, it is going to be not easier nor harder.



Kane

I added numbers to your post to address them.

1)  Since it was brought up before how long did you study for your jujitsu BB, and how long for your Judo BB?

2) I agree that some instructors will keep you at the same time requirements (in grade) that the normal (beginner) students are.  Which is the proper thing to do.  My karate instructor did this when he started teaching publicly again, everyone went to white belt in his class even if you were black belt in another system.  This was to assure quality in getting a BB from him, in his system.

However some instructors will keep you at those times to keep the money coming in as well.

In Judo and jujitsu was their commonality between your techniques?  I know Judo came from jujitsu, however doesn't Judo emphasize controling (sport) techniques and jujitsu emphasize more striking and locking (damaging the person techniques).  Does this cause you some brain lock?  ("Oh sorry, I didn't mean to lock your arm as I threw you over my shoulder.  I meant to do I hip throw.  Give me your other hand and I'll help you up."    

3)  Starting TKD would be real different from doing Judo and Jujitsu.  I can see where you wouldn't learn the techniques quicker.  Now you have to kick and punch and such and not lock and control.

Depending upon your school, style or system of TKD, and instructor when you do self defense techniques (scenerios) you could probably incorperate your prior training and experience into your defenses. 

Mark


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## gusano (Jul 5, 2004)

spook mma said:
			
		

> i read somewhere that a black belt in judo has to compete as a purple (maybe brown???) belt in bjj tournaments. does anyone know if there is truth to this?


You may have read that but I can tell you that it is certainly *not *true.
Black belts in Judo are welcome to enter tournaments and compete with blackbelts in BJJ. In fact, if you are a blackbelt in *any* martial art, you could _probably_ insist on competing in the black belt division and be allowed. However, unless your groundgame is black belt level, it wouldn't be advisable to do any of the above.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 5, 2009)

One thing I've seen from training black belts crossing over is that it doesn't really depend on the style as much as the individual in question. Take two guys from the same style and one will go through more quickly than the other. It depends on their skill within the style, and moreover their adaptability to a new style, as well as their commitment to learn the new style as well. I start everyone at white regardless. if they are ready to test they test, if not they train. nice and simple.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 5, 2009)

I have kind of avoided this thread, mostly because I did not like how the question for the poll was worded. It was too vague and the answers were too specific.

I look at it like this.

There are several ranges that any martial art can fit into. Some fit in one range, some fit in all ranges.

Firearms/projectile weapons range
Out of range for hand to hand
striking range
clinch range
Grappling range

also you can include weapons in there in the following combinations
opponent has weapon and you dont
you have weapon and opponent doesnt
you both have weapons
Throw multiple attackers into the mix and I think you have a fair representation of the possibilities.

you could name these whatever you want, and could even break them down further, or specify however you want, thats all semantics, and this is specific enough for the question.

given those ranges, and the human body there is only so much you can do. Martial Arts that focus on one specific range will be very similar to each other in regards to the movements and physical aspect, differences being mostly in preference in how to use those weapons, and strategy on how to take advantage of mistakes out opponent makes.

Comparing two martial arts that focus on different ranges and you are going to have two almost completely different sets of tools and strategies and preferences to work with.

I would say that a person who has a "Black Belt" and a proficient understanding of his art in a particular range, and sufficient athletic ability will be able to pick up the physical manifestation of any similar ranged art in little time at all, the x factor so to speak will be picking up the strategy, philosophy, and feel for that new art, while not allowing their existing knowledge to hold them back from accepting and using any strategies or philosophies of the new art.

I think a person who has a proficieny in at least one of the ranges will have a faster ability to pick up other arts that focus in other ranges then most people.

the keys are how often you are able to practice, how regularly you are able to practice, the quality of work out partner you have available, the quality of instruction you have available, the quality of your previous instruction, your physical athletic ability and condition, your understanding of strategy, your ability to look at new information with an open mind while maintaining a firm understanding on reason, and a commitment to growing in the arts. 

I am sure there is alot more that can be added but this is what came to mind, and being a person that has trained, and trains in 4 different arts currently, American Kenpo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, and Muay Thai... and plans(interested at least) on adding several more in the future.

To come closer to answering the question, I think that previous martial arts training in any art that is at an efficient level will help a person learn any other martial art at an accelerated pace over a completely untrained individual of like mind and thought. I think that that same training in an art of similar range will increase that learning pace at an even greater rate.
There is no simple direct timeframe because there are too many variables.
I do however think that a proficient  martial artist could get be at or above what is considered a Black Belt level in another art before ever having started said art, and that they could indeed start and reach black belt level in an extremely short time in another art.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 5, 2009)

gusano said:


> You may have read that but I can tell you that it is certainly *not *true.
> Black belts in Judo are welcome to enter tournaments and compete with blackbelts in BJJ. In fact, if you are a blackbelt in *any* martial art, you could _probably_ insist on competing in the black belt division and be allowed. However, unless your groundgame is black belt level, it wouldn't be advisable to do any of the above.


 
The point was not that they are not allowed to compete in the Black Belt division, but that they are not allowed to compete in the white belt division, regardless of no Jiu Jitsu experience


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 5, 2009)

MichiganTKD said:


> 9th Dan in TKD (TSD, Shotokan etc.) means you have dedicated your life to the practice, teaching, and development of your Art. By definition, there aren't going to be very many 9th, 7th, or 6th Dans. How can you dedicate your life to Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Kendo, Kung Fu, AND whatever other style you claim to practice.
> 
> Second, how would you have time to practice all those even if you wanted to? 9th Dan requires about 40 years of your life, 7th Dan about 30, 6th Dan about 25. Unless you're going to live to be 500 years old, it cannot be done. Not well anyway. Doesn't matter whether you're American or Korean. A fake's a fake.


 
Posts like this irritate me and here is why.
I have seen high ranking black belts in different martial arts that hold a full time job and then have their school as well. Then you have those people that are full time martial artists.

You have person a. who trains at tops 20 hours a week, but most of that is spent teaching others and not directly training. You have person b who trains 80 hours a week, 30 hours + teaching and a bit less then 50 hours training, how is person b not going to get alot more out of martial arts period?
I really get irritated when people place their own limitations, and issues on everyone else. In my experience the people who make these comments are usually people that have a full time job, part time martial arts hobby, and are close minded to what and how they train. They often times assume they know all there is about their given art, and as such noone could be smarter or grasp more then they do, even though most likely they have not tried. They also often times never crosstrain, or work with another "expert" of another art.
I can honestly say I have never met or read from one single person who trains Martial arts full time with a passion anything along these lines.

If a martial art requires someone to train for 40 years to reach a certain level, then how many hours and training sessions is that exactly?
what if the martial artist doubles it?
what if he quadruples it?
what if he is twice as smart as the normal 40 year trained master?
what if he is twice as fast?
twice as strong?
twice as flexible?

there is simply too many variables to put any definitive numbers or statements on it.
The fact is there are alot of fakes out there.
There are alot of people who have been at one style for 40 years and still suck.
there are people would have been at an art for 5 years and are phenomenal.
the key is to look more at the substance then the packaging.
not place arbitrary numbers on these things based on someones own inhibitions, limitations, and hang ups.


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## clfsean (Jun 5, 2009)

Dang... thread necromancy... 2004 til today... wow....


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## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 5, 2009)

LOL I didn't even notice the dates, I just figured this thread got big quick, it got necrothreaded yesterday btw.. I didn't do it LOL


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## Twin Fist (Jun 5, 2009)

a 5 year necrothread, thats impressive


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## shihansmurf (Jun 7, 2009)

This thread must have been on the 5 year plan mentioned in the poll.

Congrats Thread!!!

Mark


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## Samuraifan (Jun 9, 2009)

haha you can say that again, i just had to check the dates to make sure! Can't believe this thread has lasted this long. :headbangin:


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## ap Oweyn (Jun 16, 2009)

Just to add another angle here, I think a lot of the concerns people have revolve around others in the class feeling like the supposedly new student is blowing past them in the ranking system.  And I can see where that might bother some people.  But the inverse is also true.  A genuine yellow belt is in class with a supposed yellow belt (with years of background in a similar system) and wondering why the new yellow belt has much, much better technique than he does.  That can be disheartening in its own right.  So I think there's value in acknowledging a person's outside experience.  Helps others put his current performance in context.


Stuart


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## shihansmurf (Jun 16, 2009)

Very good point. A person that can legitimately perform a martial art at "black belt level", just isn't really a white belt simply because he started in a new school. Now, I'm pretty ambivalent about rank in general, so take this with a grain of salt, but simply letting the person wear their old rank and test through my syllabus has never caused any real problems in my school. To be fair though, there is no heirachy of authority in my class based on the belt color that a student has attained so the ranks are simply symbols of accomplishment, and indicators to the instructors as to what the student should, at a minimum, know of the system.

Mark


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## ap Oweyn (Jun 16, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> Very good point. A person that can legitimately perform a martial art at "black belt level", just isn't really a white belt simply because he started in a new school. Now, I'm pretty ambivalent about rank in general, so take this with a grain of salt, but simply letting the person wear their old rank and test through my syllabus has never caused any real problems in my school. To be fair though, there is no heirachy of authority in my class based on the belt color that a student has attained so the ranks are simply symbols of accomplishment, and indicators to the instructors as to what the student should, at a minimum, know of the system.
> 
> Mark


 
Yeah, I hear ya.  I haven't participated in a ranking system in about 15 years myself.  And I don't use one when I teach.  But my feeling is that it's easy to overcomplicate this stuff.  If a person comes in with a background that's comparable to what's being covered, then he or she is likely to pick things up rapidly.  Holding him back in rank isn't really fooling anyone.  It's not like the other "white belts" aren't going to notice that he kicks with far more aplomb than they do.  They aren't idiots.  So whether it's acknowledged with a belt or not, it should probably be addressed in some way or another.


Stuart


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## futabachan (Jun 19, 2009)

At the risk of flogging a very old thread, what exactly is meant by "black belt level?"  In Judo and Ju-Jutsu, it takes 8-10 years to get to dan rank, which represents a genuinely high level of achievement.  By contrast, I passed shodan in iaido after 18 months (it's been done in as little as 6), and it's considered to be a beginning rank; you haven't really gotten very far until about yondan or so.

And which arts are you talking about?  I'm studying three very closely allied arts, and will have three dan-level tests later in the year, but if I were to take up judo, for example, my knowledge of the naginata or the sword would have little value in preparing me to study that art.  Some arts are natural combinations: kendo and iaido, karate and ryukyu kobudo, and so forth, but others just don't transfer (witness the fanciful ideas that many long-time karate practitioners have about swords).  And going from one hard striking art to another, or one grappling art to another, would be a much faster process than taking up an art that is a complete departure.

So I'm not sure that there's a meaningful answer that can be given in the format that the poll is asking.  There are just too many variables.


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## TheArtofDave (Jun 27, 2009)

_*Just to throw my 2 cents worth in. I enjoyed reading all the different view points and after I get my EPA, and go out into the work world of Heating and Air I'll have a lot to think about when I cross train into the style in IsshinRyu even though I may have to travel to do it.

I'm going to get back into Korean Martial arts. It'll take me 2 to 3 years to get to first degree black belt. But I want to devote myself to getting a traditional 9th degree black belt.

Also somebody mentioned something about trying to master that style, or various styles. You are not going to master your style. Even if you train for an hour a day, or 2 hours or more on different drills so you can understand the concepts and reasons why you are practicing the techniques. 

If the style was so easy to master than it would not be a life long journey. So while you may master the understanding of the concepts and techniques you'll never master the style. You'll just very skilled, and dedicated. That also brings a lot of responsibility, humiliation, and the focus to respect that every style and journey is different.

I agree that cross training will make you a more well rounded fighter, and it will also make you more knowledgeable because  knowledge is one thing that comes free. You can always learn more.
*_


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## chinto (Jun 30, 2009)

what i train in averages about 6 to 7 years and often 8 to shodan ho.   So I do not see making  shodan in more then one art in less then say ohh 10 to 12 or more.


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## d1jinx (Nov 25, 2009)

here's my question.... you have multiple BB in multiple arts... at which point can you determine if what you are doing is one, the other or some combination you have created and are no longer a true this or that Martial artist?  

Have you now became a watered down version of one or the other?


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## ap Oweyn (Nov 27, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> here's my question.... you have multiple BB in multiple arts... at which point can you determine if what you are doing is one, the other or some combination you have created and are no longer a true this or that Martial artist?
> 
> Have you now became a watered down version of one or the other?


 
How would it be watered down?  Just by being synthesized with other material? It seems to me that if that's how you felt about the melding of multiple styles, you'd have taken that into account _before_ attaining rank in multiple styles.  Most people I know who take on multiple styles don't view the resulting practice as "watered down" or worry about whether they're bleeding one into the other.


Stuart


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## Milt G. (Dec 2, 2009)

Hello...

Unless the arts are VERY similar, (such as variations of the same basic art) previous experience will only shorten the time to black belt in a different art by about 25-30% at best.  This only in my opinion, of course.

Disclaimer...  Any similarity between "my" opinion, and a REAL opinion, is purly coincidential.  

The black belt level should NEVER be rushed no matter the circumstances.  To do so is to cheat your art, and yourself.  And as we all were taught...  "Cheaters never prosper"...

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## ap Oweyn (Dec 3, 2009)

So do people actually _set out_ to earn multiple black belts?  I could see it happening as a consequence of wanting to expand a skill set and simply choosing systems that use a belt system.  But I earned my first (and only) black belt in 1994.  And I haven't participated in a belt system since.

Before that, though, I did spend 5 years in taekwondo.  Leaving the style (for better or worse) just prior to black belt.  I do sometimes (though not lately) think about going back and "finishing that off."  But only because I feel like I was young and shouldn't have left taekwondo out of frustration the way I did.  I don't regret taking up FMA instead.  Far from it.  But I know my motivation _at the time_ wasn't what I would have liked.


Stuart


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## bluekey88 (Dec 3, 2009)

While I don't have bb's in multiple arts (just one), I am pursuing that.  I'm ranked in a number of different arts...due to moving around a lot and having to take what was available and what I could afford at the time.

Now, I'm 2nd dan tkd and 6th kyu in BBT...my plans are (as always) to train as much as I can for as long as i can.  should that contoinue long enough, I'll eventually have BB rank in two systems.

As to cross-training watering down things, I've found that if I keep a humble and flexible mindset, the expereince of cross-training has done nothing but enhance my skills in all the arts I study.  Good training leads to good martial arts.

Peace,
Erik


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 4, 2009)

I have been training off and on (far more on) in JJ since 1971, I have been in TKD since 1977, the FMA's since 1979 and Muay Thai since 1980 (these three continuously). Over the years, I have picked up different grades, though collecting ranks were not my priority. I have even (respectfully) turned down rank several times. It has just been a bi-product of my ongoing desire to learn and grow. Besides, mastery IMO is about mastery of one's self. If I (or anyone else for that matter) am at a certain level, that's simply the level I am at. I can (and have) connect the dots pretty easily and learn just about any curriculum, It's not "watering down", it's about constantly challenging yourself and growing.


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## Draven (Dec 4, 2009)

Honestly I think it all depends on the individual & the art the person is learning someone might be able to do it in a few years going from say Shotokan to TSD but going Shotokan to Judo or Jujitsu not so much.


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## kingkong89 (Dec 9, 2009)

It would depend on the other style and that schools ranking system say style a is similar to style b and you already have a bb in a then you go to style b it might not take you very long it would all be in the instructors descretion


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## kbarrett (Dec 2, 2011)

Personally I think having black belt in one style should be good enough, how ever if one get a black belt in a whole different art than their  base art then that's ok.  Basiclly if you have a balck belt in a karate style then there' nothing wrong with getting a black belt in a style like jujutsu.

Ken


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## fangjian (Dec 3, 2011)

Kempojujutsu said:


> Here is a question that I have been pondering. Let say someone has a black belt in style A and they decide to study Martial Art B which is similar (kata's /forms are different) Would it take someone one who already has a black belt the same amount of time to receive a black belt in Style B. As it would someone just starting out in the Martial arts.  I believe someone could study a second art and it could take half or less the time.  Now I know there are different variables to each art. The amount of training time is the most deciding factor. But your average martial artist would trains 2-3 days in a dojo and does maybe sometime at home.



It would be like achieving a bachelor's degree in Physics. And then begin studying Chemistry. The Physics background WILL help you, if you let it. Unless you are already "set in your ways", than it _could_ slow your progress in Chemistry.


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## Restita D. (Dec 3, 2011)

fangjian said:


> It would be like achieving a bachelor's degree in Physics. And then begin studying Chemistry. The Physics background WILL help you, if you let it. Unless you are already "set in your ways", than it _could_ slow your progress in Chemistry.



Well put,  I agree!  I did one art for 20 years,  but felt lacking in the "realistic self defense" mentality,  so sought out Kajukenbo. I still loved my Karate,  but felt I needed more of a street mentality for self defense.  The Karate helped me,  and I realized that the arts weren't all that radically different.... A side kick is a side kick,  no matter what,  right!? The things that differ between any art are integral concepts of each art,  it's focuses (kicking,  grappling,  etc etc), and how its taught.  

Attaining black belts in multiple arts should be a natural progression if a student wishes to cross train.... It shouldn't be approached as a belt-collecting endeavor or status raiser or bragging rights.  I encourage my students to cross train, because I don't know everything.  But I caution students to not juggle arts.... Get good at one before seeking other arts to complement (not compete with) your art. 

-Restita


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## Black Belt Jedi (Dec 4, 2011)

I voted most likely 2-3 years. IMO, it mostly depends if the discipline of the curriculum is very similar or very different from your core discipline. For example if you take Shotokan Karate and recieved your black belt and then train in Jujutsu or kobudo your progress to black belt will still take 4 or 5 years. However if you trained in jujutsu and or kobudo as a bonus and Shotokan Karate has been your core discipline, then your progress can be 2-3 years or less. Again, it all depends on training progress.


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## Yondanchris (May 30, 2012)

Turner said:


> I've trained in a variety of different arts. For the most part I've found that most instructors tend to encourage a cross training student to wear the rank that they've previously earned in another art. They are just required to stay at that rank until they have learned all of the information (basics, forms, self defense techniques, drills and principles) and skill required to be promoted. Depending on the similarities between the two arts this could be anywhere from several years to mere months. I've never seen an instructor fill out a certificate for equal rank.
> 
> I've met two instructors that have required the student to go back to white belt and start over no matter what. I tend to shy away from this type of instructor because it seems a little bit fishy. I want my journey to last as long as possible. It is a life long journey for me, no matter what so I really don't care about taking the extra time. It seems to me that instructors who force someone to go back to white belt is mostly looking after their own interests and not the interests of the student. Money... They want to be able to charge the testing fees.
> 
> Instructors have to worry about their student's egos. The ego has no real place in the martial arts, it is because of ego that we have so many sokes running around and so much political dissent in the arts. It is a shame, but we do have to worry about it. When someone has earned a certain rank, no matter the art, they are proud of it. To tell them that they need to wear a white belt again is basically telling them that all of their past training was a waste of time and they aren't going to take it very well. Allow the student the chance to be humble and remove their own belt from their waist and accept that they are ignorant of your art. To force someone to be humble is to humiliate them. It is never the instructors place to do that. As an instructor you wish to encourage humility and to encourage a person to realize their potential. Not to say that the work that they've done is worthless.



When I began my training in EPAK I was a 3rd Dan in SKK. I chose to take the "long" route and start at white belt because I knew that my previous training was bunk. Now that I am an Orange belt I take more stock in my EPAK rank than my SKK rank. Although now with the creation of "Christian Kempo" I am feeling more confident of the BB around my waist. 

Just a bit of my journey, 

Chris


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## sfs982000 (Jun 8, 2012)

Restita D. said:


> Attaining black belts in multiple arts should be a natural progression if a student wishes to cross train.... It shouldn't be approached as a belt-collecting endeavor or status raiser or bragging rights. I encourage my students to cross train, because I don't know everything. But I caution students to not juggle arts.... Get good at one before seeking other arts to complement (not compete with) your art.
> 
> -Restita



Very well put and very humble on your part.


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