# Balisong not of Filipino origin?



## OULobo (Jun 3, 2004)

Recent theories of the "butterfly knife" point to the usage of this design on Spanish ships before it was ever adopted on the shores of the Philippine Islands. The design was based on the principle that in the bowels of Spanish ships, where the gunpowder for the cannons was stored, sparks and flames could be disasterous, and so any metal that could drop and cause a spark on the side of a cannon was a risk, but metal knives were needed to trim the silk fuses of the cannons. The design of the butterfly knife allowed the metal blade to be easily deployed, even with just one hand, but to be safely encased in wood when not in use. The fact that it was a occurance on  Spanish ships give a direct method of exposure to the PIs, where it theoretically took hold, especially and possibly first in the area of Batangas. 

What do you guys think?


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Recent theories of the "butterfly knife" point to the usage of this design on Spanish ships before it was ever adopted on the shores of the Philippine Islands. The design was based on the principle that in the bowels of Spanish ships, where the gunpowder for the cannons was stored, sparks and flames could be disasterous, and so any metal that could drop and cause a spark on the side of a cannon was a risk, but metal knives were needed to trim the silk fuses of the cannons. The design of the butterfly knife allowed the metal blade to be easily deployed, even with just one hand, but to be safely encased in wood when not in use. The fact that it was a occurance on  Spanish ships give a direct method of exposure to the PIs, where it theoretically took hold, especially and possibly first in the area of Batangas.
> 
> What do you guys think?



De;ends on the sources of those recent theories. Got any?  :asian:


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## OULobo (Jun 3, 2004)

There is a spanish butterfly knife that predates the earliest batangas balisong in a museum in Spain (I'll see if I can find which). The rest is theory and supposition, but viable and logical.


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 3, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> There is a spanish butterfly knife that predates the earliest batangas balisong in a museum in Spain (I'll see if I can find which). The rest is theory and supposition, but viable and logical.



Also was it before the Spanish came to south east asia?

If so then cool beans look like there could be connection. If not then te jury is still out


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## arnisandyz (Jun 3, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> There is a spanish butterfly knife that predates the earliest batangas balisong in a museum in Spain (I'll see if I can find which). The rest is theory and supposition, but viable and logical.



There is another theory saying that before Spain, it came from France with documentation from a French book showing sketches of the knife dated 1710. And actually owns a German knife dated 1867 and a Spanish knife dated 1895.  See here http://www.balisongcollector.com/history.html

Whether this is true or not, nobody can deny that the Philippines popularized its use if not invented it.


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## OULobo (Jun 3, 2004)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> There is another theory saying that before Spain, it came from France with documentation from a French book showing sketches of the knife dated 1710. And actually owns a German knife dated 1867 and a Spanish knife dated 1895.  See here http://www.balisongcollector.com/history.html
> 
> Whether this is true or not, nobody can deny that the Philippines popularized its use if not invented it.



Thank you sir for the extra info. I think that despite who invented it, the people of Batangas perfected it.


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## Cruentus (Jun 3, 2004)

Very interesting topic.

I wonder if it is possible that for it to have been invented in more then one culture, like the wheel. I don't think this nessecerely, just some food for thought.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 3, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Very interesting topic.
> 
> I wonder if it is possible that for it to have been invented in more then one culture, like the wheel. I don't think this nessecerely, just some food for thought.




Definately possible...but due to the close time periods and the Fact that Europe was a more technologically advanced society, the cultural interchange due to geographic location of the PI, and the history of adaptability of the Filipino Martial Arts, I'd have to guess the people of the Philippines saw a good thing and made it thier own.


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## pesilat (Jun 4, 2004)

But as Rich pointed out - did any of these predate the Spaniards coming to the PI in the early 1500s? If not then it's still possible that the Spaniards took it from the PI and then, by the 1700s, it wound up in France, too. In which case, it's possible that the original PI version was very crude and the Spaniards, with their technological superiority, improved on the design and then reintroduced the "new & improved" version back into the PI.

Mike


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## OULobo (Jun 4, 2004)

but the balisong didn't really appear in the PIs until the 1900s, 200 years after it was verifiably recorded as being in France. Not to mention the apparent and logical reason for the design being nautical warfare ballistic based (cannons), something the Filipinos really didn't take part in at the scale or sophistication of the Europeans. While we can't tell for sure, if the knife wasn't apparently present in the PIs during the time of the Spanish occupation, but was in France during this time, I would still have to think it originated in Europe.


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## pesilat (Jun 4, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> but the balisong didn't really appear in the PIs until the 1900s, 200 years after it was verifiably recorded as being in France. Not to mention the apparent and logical reason for the design being nautical warfare ballistic based (cannons), something the Filipinos really didn't take part in at the scale or sophistication of the Europeans. While we can't tell for sure, if the knife wasn't apparently present in the PIs during the time of the Spanish occupation, but was in France during this time, I would still have to think it originated in Europe.



Hard to say either way, though. All we know is that proof of its existence prior to the 1900s hasn't been found - that doesn't mean it wasn't around.

Personally, I don't really care one way or the other  I think that, today, it's very definitely a Filipino blade. Spaghetti wasn't originally Italian either but these days it's very definitely considered Italian 

My point really is that as soon as we all start thinking, "Yeah, the Europeans invented the Balisong." Evidence will come out that it was actually the Aztecs - then the Spanish got it from them and the Filipinos and French got it from the Spaniards.

"I had all the answers once, then someone changed the questions." 

Mike


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