# Police: Arizona church is a brothel



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 9, 2011)

*STORY HIGHLIGHTS*


The Phoenix Goddess Temple advocates "neo tantric" healing therapies, police say
But "practitioners" at the temple allegedly gave sex for "donations," police say
20 women and men have been arrested, and 17 more people are sought
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/09/arizona.church.prostitution/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

"Church" Web site's down.


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## granfire (Sep 10, 2011)

I wonder why....
:lfao:

Damn, finally a church that practices what it preaches, they close it down!

(hints as to the use of the coitus as religious ceremony shall be kept for a serious thread)


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## Sukerkin (Sep 10, 2011)

This is the core of the matter I reckon:

*"We certainly respect First Amendment rights. However, religious freedom does not allow for criminal acts," Martos said.*

I am one of those who think that the legalisation of prostitution should go ahead so as to remove many criminal aspects that adhere to the 'profession'.  But, as with my views on the legalisation and commercialisation of 'leisure' drugs, my stance remains firmly that if it is illegal then do not do it.

Simples {Meercat voice there}

{To explain the origin of "simples", please watch this video http://meerkat.comparethemarket.com/my-movies }


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 10, 2011)

*"We certainly respect First Amendment rights. However, religious freedom does not allow for criminal acts," Martos said.

*1 word - Peyote.
Numerous groups are allowed to do things that are illegal for the rest of us.


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

Peyote is legal in some Native American ceremonies because there is a historic/cultural precedent. Would we allow human sacrifice? This is prostitution under the guise of religion. Book em Danno.


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## cdunn (Sep 10, 2011)

Temples have sponsored prostitution since before mankind invented writing. Let em have their day in court, but yeah, shut them down until it gets settled.


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

No temples that haven't been extinct for over 1000 years. People stating that they are the inheritor of some extinct religion so that they can have prostitution are full of crap.


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

> Regarding the Goddess Temple's website, he said: "What they would talk about would seem to be religion. At the same time, they were implying or intimating that they were giving sex therapy."
> 
> The website says at one point: "Sex is a holy, sacred and divine healing force at the core (of) our beings. Once we embrace this force instead of deny it, we become successful, happy and powerful manifestors."
> 
> The website also features unclothed women, listed as residing in several states, under a "Goddesses" section.



This was a creative cover for an escort service...nothing more.

If you want to discuss the legalization of prostitution thats one thing, but if you seriously think that this is a legitimate religious issue I have a few bridges to sell you.


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## Sukerkin (Sep 10, 2011)

:chuckles:  I do have to agree with Angel; this stinks to high heaven {yeah, mythology pun attack! } of someone trying to put a new twist on an old way of doing business.  

Full marks for creativity but I'm not sure they envisaged getting away with it for long.  

Mind you, can you imagine what would happen if they won their day in court?!  Even tho' I disdain it {religion that is}, freedom of religion is an important tenet of law; opening the door for even greater abuse of faith as a cover for nefarious activity {as if tele-evangelism wasn't bad enough} would not be a great move.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 10, 2011)

Arch, I'm in complete agreement with you...but still...I wish I'd thought of it. LOL!


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## Flea (Sep 10, 2011)

Meh.  If everyone's a consenting adult, who cares?

*"We certainly respect First Amendment rights. However, religious freedom does not allow for criminal acts," Martos said.

*The hypocrisy of this statement really sticks in my craw.  What about all the _actual_ atrocities committed in the name of religion?  Things like animal and human sacrifice, pedophile priests, the Inquisition, witch hunts (literal and otherwise,) and genocide?  Yes, prostitution is illegal so they have to prosecute it.  But I think that as a society we're missing the point here.


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## Senjojutsu (Sep 10, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Would we allow human sacrifice?


As a confirmed High Druid Priest (Orthodox, or am I Reformed?) that has been a major beef of mine for decades! 

It just isn't a real Druid Equinox service without a virgin sacrifice IMHO.

The simple answer boys & girls is you can believe ANYTHING in your religious BELIEF system/dogma.

Your own "religious practices" cannot supersede the Western secular law of the nation - well - for the time being that is... :uhohh:

Anyway:

An Arizona Church that is a brothel?
*
CAN I GET AN AMEN!
*
BTW America's favorite Pentecostal Prostitute-hiring Pastor himself, JIMMY "I HAVE SINNED" SWAGGERT was unavailable for comment on this story!

I'll stop with the sarcasm now and light a candle...
:angel:


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## elder999 (Sep 10, 2011)

Sex rites exist in a variety of religions, across a wide spectrum-not only wiccan, pagan or neo-pagan. There are tantric rites in Hinduism and Buddhism. The idea of making a donation to have sex in a temple is not only not that far-fetched, but might not meet the legal definition of "prostitution," no matter how much they try to color it as an escort service or brothel: if I give money to a hotel for a room, and then wind up consentually having sex with the woman at the front desk in that room , am I guilty of soliciting? Is she guilty of prostitution? Is the hotel a brothel?I don't think so.

More to the point, Bob's example of peyote was the precedent for the recent ruling on the use of _ayahuasca_ by the SUpreme Court. It's completely legal, now, for _anyone_ to possess ayahuasca vine and use it, though the use and possession of its active ingredient, DMT is still illegal. Admittedly, its status is still a bit of a muddle-I don't think anyone can import the stuff anymore, but I don't doubt for a minute that some people are growing it-this, too, might still be illegal.

Put religion into the mix, and the definitions of what is "legal" or "illegal" become really interesting.


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## granfire (Sep 10, 2011)

Senjojutsu said:


> As a confirmed High Druid Priest (Orthodox, or am I Reformed?) that has been a major beef of mine for decades!
> 
> It just isn't a real Druid Equinox service without a virgin sacrifice IMHO.
> 
> ...



keep the burn laws in mind when you light your candles!


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

The criminal part is simple...follow the money.

If the..."goddesses" are pocketing the cash or the "temple" is taking a cut of the "donations" given to the "goddesses" as profit. it's promotion of prostitution. If you really think this is an actual religion/church and not simply a creative escort service you are kidding yourself.

Them promoting this as "therapy" only serves to reinforce my opinion. Is this a rite or a "medical service"?

Debate the merits of legalized prostitution if you like but sell this sunshine to another rube.

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## elder999 (Sep 10, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> The criminal part is simple...follow the money.
> 
> If the..."goddesses" are pocketing the cash or the "temple" is taking a cut of the "donations" given to the "goddesses" as profit. it's promotion of prostitution. If you really think this is an actual religion/church and not simply a creative escort service you are kidding yourself.
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter what I think. The 1st Amendment says that if _they_ *call* it a religion, then it *is*. 

The money trail will probably be equally interesting-if they pass the plate around, as at a conventional church, rather than having a minimum donation for "services rendered" how does that affect the money trail? It'll be settled in court, and I actually don't know-I do know that there are clubs all over the country that charge entry fees for consenting adults to have sex with each other, and they don't get shut down as brothels. I think someone got wind of what was going on and either thought that they could get themselves a high visibility prosecution or simply went on another taxpayer funded crusade to control people's behavior, _"Oh that's outrageous, we have to put a *stop* to it!_" Or, it really could be organized crime-a brothel/prostitution ring. I just don't think it's a slam-dunk on the basis of the facts presented, and it's entirely possible that it really is religious activity.


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

This is as much about "religion" as Asian Spas are really about "massage". I'd bet on that.

Web pages of out of state "goddesses"? Pfft..that's classic escort services.

"The money wasn't for sex ...it was a donation", is the classic escort rap. 

Like...the money was for the massage, not the happy ending.

Pfft.

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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 10, 2011)

having seen the website, i'm in agreement with arch here


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## elder999 (Sep 10, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> having seen the website, i'm in agreement with arch here



Not even having seen the website, so am I. That's not the point.

It doesn't matter what we think-even those in law enforcement. Simply because money changed hands and sex took place doesn't make it prostitution. And there are sex rites in a variety of religions-not enough to call it commonplace, or mainstream, but more than enough for legal precedent.

Sure. It's a brothel.Proving it in court might not be the slam dunk that it seems, even with the website evidence.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 10, 2011)

It'd be easier to prove prostitution if the 'goddesses' were actually hot.

Just sayin.....


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## Sukerkin (Sep 10, 2011)

:chuckles:  Oh aye!  You would hope, given their 'divine' inspiration, that they would be.


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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It'd be easier to prove prostitution if the 'goddesses' were actually hot.
> 
> Just sayin.....


 
You don't have the street knowledge of prostitutes that I have...in the LEO sense that is


They are about par for the course unless you are extremely wealthy.

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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Not even having seen the website, so am I. That's not the point.
> 
> It doesn't matter what we think-even those in law enforcement. Simply because money changed hands and sex took place doesn't make it prostitution. And there are sex rites in a variety of religions-not enough to call it commonplace, or mainstream, but more than enough for legal precedent.
> 
> Sure. It's a brothel.Proving it in court might not be the slam dunk that it seems, even with the website evidence.


 
Just because they put up a sign (or website) that claims they are a religion doesn't make them one in terms of shielding otherwise illegal activity.

If the money collected went to the poor or some other philanthropic endeavor than maybe you have a point. If it went into a goddesses or priestess pocket for their next hit of meth (which im betting on) then that's fairly easy to prove.

A...was it 20 month investigation..with a sweep of arrests? I would think these were based on warrants from a magistrate and the nod from the prosecutors office...Im fairly confident that this is a straight up case of prostitution.

If they are a legitimate tax free religious organization ill buy the next round of beer.



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## Archangel M (Sep 10, 2011)

Im waiting for the next doper or shoplifter to claim that their religion requires them to smoke crack or steal razor blades. Lol!

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## jks9199 (Sep 10, 2011)

Well, the Gypsies have claimed for generations that they aren't stealing, since everything was given to them on Calvary. 

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## Senjojutsu (Sep 11, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> You don't have the street knowledge of prostitutes that I have...in the LEO sense that is
> 
> They are about par for the course unless you are extremely wealthy.


I do not want to type words in your mouth - but what are you inferring Archangel?

That the talent of these Church's priestesses wasn't on par with say the "Emperor's Club VIP" staff used by old Client #9 himself, Eliot Spitzer?

Or are you trying to validate an old street-wise saying from my youth?

Buyer beware... the only good-looking streetwalkers you will see are policewomen (on undercover sting) or men (in drag)!
:uhyeah:


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2011)

Senjojutsu said:


> Buyer beware... the only good-looking streetwalkers you will see are policewomen (on undercover sting) or men (in drag)!
> :uhyeah:



I guess you could say that female cops have very arresting looks?


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## Sukerkin (Sep 11, 2011)

{groan!}  Well done that man .


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## Archangel M (Sep 11, 2011)

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/211822/20110911/arizona-church-an-alleged-brothel-police-arrest-sensuous-educators-tantra-egyptian-sacred-sexuality.htm



> The alleged founder of the temple Tracy Elise, who is in her fifties and is popularly known as Mystic Mother, was arrested and charged with prostitution, illegal control of an enterprise, pandering, and operating a house of prostitution, police said. She has a alleged history of running similar brothels including one in Seattle, Washington, which authorities shut down in 2009.



A church that advertises on backpage.com....classy.


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## granfire (Sep 11, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/211822/20110911/arizona-church-an-alleged-brothel-police-arrest-sensuous-educators-tantra-egyptian-sacred-sexuality.htm
> 
> 
> 
> A church that advertises on backpage.com....classy.



LOL, you gotta reach the sinners somehow!


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## Archangel M (Sep 11, 2011)

To be honest though...from my personal opinion...big deal. The likely reason they came under the spotlight was because of public complaints. If they were a bit more remote in their location and nobody was complaining I'd wager they wouldn't have been worth checking the radar for.

My only "issue" is the whole "religion" thing....come on this is a brothel. In Nevada nobody would care as long as they followed the rules.


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