# How do you become a "Datu"?



## The Game

I wants to know.

I know Presas appointed 6 guys as Datus. The debate on that's famous. I know a couple other guys also use the title. Thing is, they all seem to use it as a tie in to rank.   I recently saw a press release that some gm awarded a "Datu Award" to a couple of guys, now one of them's claiming to be a datu.  Isn't that kinda like me getting the "Presidents Award" then wandering around telling everyone I'm a President. Seems stupid to me, but what do I know.

Anyway, how much to be a Datu, and can I be a Soke-Datu, and is there a discount with it?


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## Guro Harold

The Game said:


> I wants to know.
> 
> I know Presas appointed 6 guys as Datus. The debate on that's famous. I know a couple other guys also use the title. Thing is, they all seem to use it as a tie in to rank.   I recently saw a press release that some gm awarded a "Datu Award" to a couple of guys, now one of them's claiming to be a datu.  Isn't that kinda like me getting the "Presidents Award" then wandering around telling everyone I'm a President. Seems stupid to me, but what do I know.
> 
> Anyway, how much to be a Datu, and can I be a Soke-Datu, and is there a discount with it?


It comes to a point that people do, what they do, for what ever reason why they do it, and the only thing we can do about it, is to say congratulations or take leave of it.


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## The Game

I don't care none to much for fancy titles, specially made up ones, but I guess you have a point.


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## Morgan

The Game said:


> I wants to know.
> 
> I know Presas appointed 6 guys as Datus. The debate on that's famous. I know a couple other guys also use the title. Thing is, they all seem to use it as a tie in to rank. I recently saw a press release that some gm awarded a "Datu Award" to a couple of guys, now one of them's claiming to be a datu. Isn't that kinda like me getting the "Presidents Award" then wandering around telling everyone I'm a President. Seems stupid to me, but what do I know.
> 
> Anyway, how much to be a Datu, and can I be a Soke-Datu, and is there a discount with it?


 
My questions for The Game are:

1.  Where can this press release be viewed?
2.  Who is the "gm" who gave the "Datu Award"?
3.  Who are the "couple of guys" who recieved this award?
4.  Who is the one person "claiming to be a datu"?
5.  Did you contact those "couple of guys" to see if they would tell    
     you/us how much and/or if there was a discount?

Without any names it's hard to make a reasonable evaluation of the value of the title or if it is a reasonale award.  I know that Professor Remy Presas is deceased and the award could not have possibly come from him.  OTOH, was he the only GM who awarded the title within his system or merely the first to do so in North America?  

:asian:

Morgan


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I found what the Game was writing about on Budo Seek:



> A Special Announcement
> 
> I am pleased to announce on behalf of GM Vicente Sanchez - founder of Kali Arnis International Federation, founding member of the Philippine Council of Kali, Eskrima, Arnis, Masters and Senior Master in both Modern Arnis and Lightning Scientific Arnis, has chosen to recognize Dr. Jerome Barber of the Independent Eskrima Kenpo Arnis Associates and Punong Guro Tom Bolden of the American Modern Arnis Associates as Grand Masters of their respective organizations effective 25 April 2010. GM Sanchez decision to grant recognition to GMs Barber and Bolden was based upon their individual accomplishments in the martial arts, the quality of students they have produced over the years and the number of years they have been teaching FMA.
> 
> Additionally, GM Sanchez has chosen to honor Jerome Barber, Tom Bolden and Bram Frank with a Datu award. The award citation reads:
> 
> CONGRATULATIONS! Your marked display of loyalty and diligence rendered you one of our distinguished achievers nominated as DATU in the practice and propagation of the Filipino Martial Arts. This brings pride and encouragement to us and to fellow arnisadores who also work to attain greater heights in these endeavors. With perfection in mind and spirit, let us preserve such dynamism so that we can linger longer as one of the worlds pride. MABUHAY!
> 
> *The Datu Award is does not bestow a rank, title or privilege upon the recipient. It is simply in recognition of dedication and excellence in teaching and propagating FMA - nothing more, nothing less.*
> 
> Congratulations to Jerome, Tom amd Bram. This is proof positive that favoring quality over quantity really does pay off in the long run.


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## MJS

AFAIK, this title, Datu, was given to select people just like the MOTTs.  IMHO, if the Prof. wanted to give someone a rank, a title, whatever, that was his call.  However, for me, and this not only goes for Arnis, but for Kenpo, the other art that I train in...I'm not really concerned with titles.  What concerns me, is what the person can teach, how well they can teach it, how well they understand it, etc.  Those, IMO, are the things that matter the most.  

I'm not going to avoid training with someone like Tim Hartman or Kelly Worden because they have datu titles.  I'm going to train with them because of what they can offer me, and everyone else in the FMA world. 

Just my .02.


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## Guro Harold

Semantically, IMHO, it appears that the language is implies that this is purely an honorary title in recognition of their contribution from GM Sanchez.

How this title should be properly used is also actually between the recipients and GM Sanchez as well.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

If there has been some misinterpretation it could be do to a language barrier or the fact that they haven't met. Sometime the message get changed through the chain of command.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Titles do not make the practitioner!  No instead for good or bad their skill sets speak for them!


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## Morgan

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I found what the Game was writing about on Budo Seek:


 
A Special Announcement 
*I am pleased to announce on behalf of GM Vicente Sanchez - founder of Kali Arnis International Federation, founding member of the Philippine Council of Kali, Eskrima, Arnis, Masters and Senior Master in both Modern Arnis and Lightning Scientific Arnis, has chosen to recognize Dr. Jerome Barber of the Independent Eskrima Kenpo Arnis Associates and Punong Guro Tom Bolden of the American Modern Arnis Associates as Grand Masters of their respective organizations effective 25 April 2010. *
(My emphasis added) 

GM Sanchez decision to grant recognition to GMs Barber and Bolden was based upon their individual accomplishments in the martial arts, the quality of students they have produced over the years and the number of years they have been teaching FMA. 

Additionally, GM Sanchez has chosen to honor Jerome Barber, Tom Bolden and Bram Frank with a Datu award. The award citation reads:

_CONGRATULATIONS! Your marked display of loyalty and diligence rendered you one of our distinguished achievers nominated as DATU in the practice and propagation of the Filipino Martial Arts. This brings pride and encouragement to us and to fellow arnisadores who also work to attain greater heights in these endeavors. With perfection in mind and 
spirit, let us preserve such dynamism so that we can linger longer as one of the worlds pride. MABUHAY! _

*The Datu Award is does not bestow a rank, title or privilege upon the recipient. It is simply in recognition of dedication and excellence in teaching and propagating FMA - nothing more, nothing less.
*(Datu Hartman emphasis added)

Congratulations to Jerome, Tom amd Bram. This is proof positive that favoring quality over quantity really does pay off in the long run. 
-----------------------------------------------------------

Thank you GM/Datu Hartman for your excellent post which very clearly names everyone involved in the comments eluded to by "The Game".  Now it is possible to fully evaluate the significance of the 'Datu' award alluded to by "The Game".

First and foremost the award of "Datu" is actually secondary to the recognition by GM Sanchez of Dr. Barber and PG Bolden
as Grand Master(s) of their resepctive systems!  This is quite
significant because what we have here is a Filipino GM, with some 60+ years of training and teaching in the FMA in his homeland, recognizing 2 African-Americans as GMs within their own right(s) and system(s)!  

How often has that happened since the FMA have gone international?  Secondly, how often have we heard that the FMA must be in one's blood?  An obvious reference to the idea that only a Filipino can truely master and understand the FMA.

Clearly GM Sanchez has seen somethin in these two men that he likes and respects enough to put talent and merit ahead of
nationality!  I stand and salute ALL 3 of these men as true practicitioners of the FMA in the fullest sense of honor and dedicated committment.

"The Game" did not give us all of the facts in his initial post.
I also want to acknowledge and applaude GM/Datu Tim Hartman for posting the full and complete statement regarding the announcement of the GMship(s) that went to Dr. Barber and PG Bolden.  I am fully aware of the disputes that have gone down between GM/Datu Hartman and Dr. Barber over a number of years, but that did not prevent GM/Datu Hartman from stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing by both of these men.  

I stand and salute you GM/Datu Hartman for your *bold and honorable behavior* in this matter.

Given the choice between using "GM" and "Datu", I seriously doubt that either of these men would opt for using the latter title, which is really an honorary designation.  GM/Datu Hartman was absolutely correct in highlighting that part of the announcement in his replication of the original document. 

Congratulations to everyone involved in this announcement,
Dr. Barber, PG Bolden and GM Frank (earned prior to GM Sanchez's declarition) and GM/Datu Hartman.

Respectfully Yours,

Morgan​


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## Morgan

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Titles do not make the practitioner! No instead for good or bad their skill sets speak for them!


 
I fully concur with your comment above, Sir.  I believe that PG Bolden has stated that "Skill is Rank" and he has also printed that on his American Modern Arnis Associates organizational tee-shirts.

Morgan


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## Morgan

MJS said:


> AFAIK, this title, Datu, was given to select people just like the MOTTs. IMHO, if the Prof. wanted to give someone a rank, a title, whatever, that was his call. However, for me, and this not only goes for Arnis, but for Kenpo, the other art that I train in...I'm not really concerned with titles. What concerns me, is what the person can teach, how well they can teach it, how well they understand it, etc. Those, IMO, are the things that matter the most.
> 
> I'm not going to avoid training with someone like Tim Hartman or Kelly Worden because they have datu titles. I'm going to train with them because of what they can offer me, and everyone else in the FMA world.
> 
> Just my .02.


 
I fully agree with your statement above and I can only add that perhaps you might consider training with PG Bolden as well Datu Harman and Datu Worden, since he is just a couple hour drive away from Crommwell, CT.  I'm merely making a suggestion and given that PG Bolden has 40+ years of FMA training under his belt, a short drive could yield some very positive insights.

Respectfully,

Morgan


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## Carol

Morgan said:


> First and foremost the award of "Datu" is actually secondary to the recognition by GM Sanchez of Dr. Barber and PG Bolden
> as Grand Master(s) of their resepctive systems!  This is quite
> significant because what we have here is a Filipino GM, with some 60+ years of training and teaching in the FMA in his homeland, recognizing 2 African-Americans as GMs within their own right(s) and system(s)!  ​



Good to see these barriers coming down. :asian:


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## Guro Harold

Carol said:


> Good to see these barriers coming down. :asian:


Respectfully, they along with Doug Pierre, Sifu Lee Lowery, and several others had already broken barriers.


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## MJS

Morgan said:


> I fully agree with your statement above and I can only add that perhaps you might consider training with PG Bolden as well Datu Harman and Datu Worden, since he is just a couple hour drive away from Crommwell, CT. I'm merely making a suggestion and given that PG Bolden has 40+ years of FMA training under his belt, a short drive could yield some very positive insights.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Morgan


 
Anythings possible.  Although still quite a ways away, I do plan on attending the big seminar in 2011.  I'm certainly looking forward to training with everyone.

BTW, are you planning on being there?


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## Bob Hubbard

Congrats to those receiving the award.


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## Bob Hubbard

I found the announcement in 2 places, Budoseek and Topica. Now it's here too which is cool.
Budoseek, and Topica
http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?27735-A-Special-Announcement
http://lists.topica.com/lists/Escrima-Kuntao-Arnis/read/message.html?mid=813806530&sort=d&start=2162

On a thread on Topica, Dr. Barber stated the award was a surprise, and was given with no charge, obligation, etc.

As to the question of how do you become a Datu? That's easy.
- You get the title from someone who issues it as a title.
- You get the rank from someone who issues it as a rank
- You get the award from someone who issues it as an award
- You buy it from someone who sells it
- You use it because you like it.

The first 3, I'm ok with, the last 2, not so much.

Tim got his, as did 5 others, from GM Remy Presas as titles recognizing his skill and ability. Jerome, as did at least 2 others, got his from GM Vic Sanchez as awards recognizing his ability and contributions.  All those named and not named (here by me) to my knowledge are active in promoting the FMA, and are passionate about what they do. 

Regarding the old issues between Hartman and Barber and their respective groups, MartialTalk doesn't welcome rehashes or new exchanges on that topic, and anyone popping in to dig up the old 'unpleasantness' will be suspended until such time as they can prove to us they aren't a sock puppet for someone stirring up old crap again. "The Game"s been asked to send in a copy of his Gov ID, notarized. He'll be back if/when his bonafides check out.


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## Dan Anderson

I'm late on this thread but I posted a congratulations to Bram, Jerome & Tom in the Topica forum site on their recognitions.

GM Vic Sanchez is respected in the PI and it is an honor to the recipients that he recognizes their achievements.

Congrats, guys!

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson

MJS said:


> Anythings possible.  Although still quite a ways away, I do plan on attending the big seminar in 2011.  I'm certainly looking forward to training with everyone.
> 
> BTW, are you planning on being there?


I am.  I have changed my mind and will teach something other than espada y daga.  Haven't figured out what yet.  Got lots of time.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## MJS

Dan Anderson said:


> I am. I have changed my mind and will teach something other than espada y daga. Haven't figured out what yet. Got lots of time.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Looking forward to meeting and training with you and the others as well.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Datu Award

  It seems that people are giving me way too much credit for my input on this thread. So there are no misunderstandings, I would like to make my position on this clear. Im not endorsing or defending the three recipients of GM Vicente Sanchezs Datu award. It seems that people are misinterpreting the award as a promotion of some sort of rank or title. I was asked if Bram should now be referred to as Datu Bram. If you read the announcement, it is clear that Datu is the *name* of the award. If you will an Oscar, you dont become one, youre an Oscar recipient. Now before anyone tries to stir things up, Bram is my friend.  I asked him to teach at next years reunion camp at my school. This is just for clarification. If Bram was promoted to Datu, I would be one of the first to congratulate him.

  On both MT and FMAT, I help to police things of this nature. Most of my work is done in the admin sections of the site or in meetings with Mr. Hubbard. In this case, it was done in the thread of interest. That being said, I do have a question that this thread has inspired.

  GM Sanchez does have a student here in the US that addresses himself as a Datu. Is this a misinterpretation of the Datu award or does the GM also use the title of Datu in his ranking system? It doesnt make sense to me to use one title for both an award as well as a rank. To me, it would seem to be problematic. It would be easy for people to get the two confused. Hopefully someone here on MT or FMAT will have the information and share it with us to help educate us.

  Respectfully yours,
  Datu Hartman
  GM Presas Arnis


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## Morgan

MJS said:


> Anythings possible. Although still quite a ways away, I do plan on attending the big seminar in 2011. I'm certainly looking forward to training with everyone.
> 
> BTW, are you planning on being there?


 
Yes.  It's an expensive item but I am putting money aside for it.

Morgan


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## Morgan

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> Datu Award
> 
> It seems that people are giving me way too much credit for my input on this thread. So there are no misunderstandings, I would like to make my position on this clear. Im not endorsing or defending the three recipients of GM Vicente Sanchezs Datu award. It seems that people are misinterpreting the award as a promotion of some sort of rank or title. I was asked if Bram should now be referred to as Datu Bram. If you read the announcement, it is clear that Datu is the *name* of the award. If you will an Oscar, you dont become one, youre an Oscar recipient. Now before anyone tries to stir things up, Bram is my friend. I asked him to teach at next years reunion camp at my school. This is just for clarification. If Bram was promoted to Datu, I would be one of the first to congratulate him.
> 
> On both MT and FMAT, I help to police things of this nature. Most of my work is done in the admin sections of the site or in meetings with Mr. Hubbard. In this case, it was done in the thread of interest. That being said, I do have a question that this thread has inspired.
> 
> GM Sanchez does have a student here in the US that addresses himself as a Datu. Is this a misinterpretation of the Datu award or does the GM also use the title of Datu in his ranking system? It doesnt make sense to me to use one title for both an award as well as a rank. To me, it would seem to be problematic. It would be easy for people to get the two confused. Hopefully someone here on MT or FMAT will have the information and share it with us to help educate us.
> 
> Respectfully yours,
> Datu Hartman
> GM Presas Arnis


 
Once again, a statement about a specific person and with a very legitimate question but again without naming the individual.  He or 
she might be able to respond quickly or contacted by someone else 
for a response if we knew who the person in question is.  

Just a thought.

Morgan


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## DrBarber

The Game said:


> I wants to know.
> 
> I know Presas appointed 6 guys as Datus. The debate on that's famous. I know a couple other guys also use the title. Thing is, they all seem to use it as a tie in to rank.   I recently saw a press release that some gm awarded a "Datu Award" to a couple of guys, now one of them's claiming to be a datu.  Isn't that kinda like me getting the "Presidents Award" then wandering around telling everyone I'm a President. Seems stupid to me, but what do I know.
> 
> Anyway, how much to be a Datu, and can I be a Soke-Datu, and is there a discount with it?



During a conversation this afternoon I was reminded that this topic was posted and the question, "How does one become a Datu" was never fully answered.  Recently the whole issue was addressed in relation to the late Professor Remy Presas and Modern Arnis by GM Tom Bolden in an essay that he published in the "Filipino Martial Arts Informative - Special Edition Issue #191, that was posted on August 28, 2015.  Below is the entire uncut or edited essay:

*Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation
(Preserving The Legacy And Advancing The Art OF Professor Remy Presas)*

*This foundation offers the best chance yet for truly bringing the Modern Arnis family together for sharing, growth and advancement of the art. The Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation is unique in that it is comprised of senior/notable Modern Arnis Practitioners (inductees) from every generation and era of Modern Arnis. *

*Professor Remy Presas often challenged his students to make the art of Modern Arnis for themselves, through practice, repetition, experimentation, etc.  “If you practice it, you will see everything”. What Professor Presas also realized was that not everyone would see the art the same, but would interpret it differently base on their own experiences. For this reason, members of this foundation, the seniors from various generations and eras possess invaluable wisdom and insights which should be shared for the continued advancement and growth of Modern Arnis and future generations.  Professor Presas would want it this way!*

*Professor Presas recognized the need for leaders in Modern Arnis and established the title/designation of Datu. This title  was awarded to those who through constant practice, growth and development, had truly seen and advanced  the art for themselves. The first Datu titles were awarded during public presentation at the 1987 New Hampshire Summer Camp, to Datu Shishir Innocalla and Datu Bong Journales. Datu Kelly Worden, the first American was awarded the Datu title in 1988. Interestingly Professor Presas during the initial Datu presentation defined the designation to mean Master of Weapons, with the requirement to demonstrate applications and expertise with four weapons of the practitioners choosing, both solo and in combination. For whatever reason, the current definition (leader), used for Datu in Modern Arnis seems to have been adopted by Professor Remy Presas after recognition of the first three Datus.*

*Through The Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation, Professor Remy Presas’ dream still lives. Leaders are still needed to share and advance the art of Modern Arnis, and the Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation reserves the right and authority to recognize senior practitioners as Modern Arnis Datus. This title is awarded by the Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation, is based on an individual’s number of years of training and study in Modern Arnis/FMA (minimum of 25 years), his/her overall reputation among their peers, a strong instructional reputation and a body of work/contributions to both Modern Arnis and the martial arts. *

*An added requirement of good character is an essential factor before anyone could be or would be nominated for this award.  In addition it should be noted that the Foundation will not be awarding the Datu title on any annual or any other fixed schedule.  *

*The members of the Remy Presas Memorial HOF Foundation believe that the Datu title is special and should be reserved for those people who have a proven track record within the art of Modern Arnis.  It is a peer recognition award that can and should represent the absolute best qualities of Professor Presas’ legacy.*

*Tom Bolden,
Grand Master, Datu,
American Modern Arnis Associates*


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## Tony Dismukes

DrBarber said:


> During a conversation this afternoon I was reminded that this topic was posted and the question, "How does one become a Datu" was never fully answered.  Recently the whole issue was addressed in relation to the late Professor Remy Presas and Modern Arnis by GM Tom Bolden in an essay that he published in the "Filipino Martial Arts Informative - Special Edition Issue #191, that was posted on August 28, 2015.  Below is the entire uncut or edited essay:
> 
> *Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation
> (Preserving The Legacy And Advancing The Art OF Professor Remy Presas)*
> 
> *This foundation offers the best chance yet for truly bringing the Modern Arnis family together for sharing, growth and advancement of the art. The Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation is unique in that it is comprised of senior/notable Modern Arnis Practitioners (inductees) from every generation and era of Modern Arnis. *
> 
> *Professor Remy Presas often challenged his students to make the art of Modern Arnis for themselves, through practice, repetition, experimentation, etc.  “If you practice it, you will see everything”. What Professor Presas also realized was that not everyone would see the art the same, but would interpret it differently base on their own experiences. For this reason, members of this foundation, the seniors from various generations and eras possess invaluable wisdom and insights which should be shared for the continued advancement and growth of Modern Arnis and future generations.  Professor Presas would want it this way!*
> 
> *Professor Presas recognized the need for leaders in Modern Arnis and established the title/designation of Datu. This title  was awarded to those who through constant practice, growth and development, had truly seen and advanced  the art for themselves. The first Datu titles were awarded during public presentation at the 1987 New Hampshire Summer Camp, to Datu Shishir Innocalla and Datu Bong Journales. Datu Kelly Worden, the first American was awarded the Datu title in 1988. Interestingly Professor Presas during the initial Datu presentation defined the designation to mean Master of Weapons, with the requirement to demonstrate applications and expertise with four weapons of the practitioners choosing, both solo and in combination. For whatever reason, the current definition (leader), used for Datu in Modern Arnis seems to have been adopted by Professor Remy Presas after recognition of the first three Datus.*
> 
> *Through The Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation, Professor Remy Presas’ dream still lives. Leaders are still needed to share and advance the art of Modern Arnis, and the Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation reserves the right and authority to recognize senior practitioners as Modern Arnis Datus. This title is awarded by the Remy Presas Modern Arnis HOF Foundation, is based on an individual’s number of years of training and study in Modern Arnis/FMA (minimum of 25 years), his/her overall reputation among their peers, a strong instructional reputation and a body of work/contributions to both Modern Arnis and the martial arts. *
> 
> *An added requirement of good character is an essential factor before anyone could be or would be nominated for this award.  In addition it should be noted that the Foundation will not be awarding the Datu title on any annual or any other fixed schedule.  *
> 
> *The members of the Remy Presas Memorial HOF Foundation believe that the Datu title is special and should be reserved for those people who have a proven track record within the art of Modern Arnis.  It is a peer recognition award that can and should represent the absolute best qualities of Professor Presas’ legacy.*
> 
> *Tom Bolden,
> Grand Master, Datu,
> American Modern Arnis Associates*



Is "Datu" a title unique to Modern Arnis and its spinoffs, or is it used in other FMA?


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## DrBarber

Tony Dismukes said:


> Is "Datu" a title unique to Modern Arnis and its spinoffs, or is it used in other FMA?



The "Datu" title is not unique to Modern Arnis.  There are 2 other GMs who I am aware of who have used the title, Porfilio (sp) La Nada and Vicente Sanchez.


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## Buka

How do you become a Datu?

Same way you get to Carnegie Hall.


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## geezer

Buka said:


> How do you become a Datu?
> 
> Same way you get to Carnegie Hall.



In a taxi?


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