# Seiunchin, Naihanchi, Wansu, Chinto...



## Bill Mattocks

Might as well get them all out there at once.  I don't have a Kusanku yet, because I'm still working on the kata, and I have not yet started on Sunsu.  But here's the rest.  I'm disgusted the more I look at them; I can't believe the things I was doing.  Low kicks, stances wrong, looking down instead of at the fight line, etc.  However, please feel free to add your comments and constructive criticism.

Seiunchin






[video=youtube_share;86Oab-bMRw0]http://youtu.be/86Oab-bMRw0[/video]

Naihanchi






[video=youtube_share;f2cpEs_Zw7M]http://youtu.be/f2cpEs_Zw7M[/video]

Wansu






[video=youtube_share;IAE-DZ0w84c]http://youtu.be/IAE-DZ0w84c[/video]

Chinto






[video=youtube_share;oFXYfLJJs4U]http://youtu.be/oFXYfLJJs4U[/video]


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## harlan

I only know Seuinchin, and for comparison, here is a vid of an Isshin-ryu friend performing it. Our Goju version is almost the same, with a slight difference in embu.


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## Bill Mattocks

harlan said:


> I only know Seuinchin, and for comparison, here is a vid of an Isshin-ryu friend performing it. Our Goju version is almost the same, with a slight difference in embu.



Thank you, that looks very much like ours.  We do not take such a deep stance, but I know others do.  Looks great!


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## seasoned

Off to work, will comment later tonight.


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## dancingalone

Bill, you're a big and powerful guy, but I don't get the sense that you're maximizing this asset in your performance of Seiunchin.  Your arm movements appear disengaged from your body at times.  If I were your sensei, I'd ask that you practice the kata very slowly and build for a sticky, sledgehammer effect, where the swings or movements are not necessarily fast but they have a visible thud to them with the body behind every shot.  Seiunchin is a perfect showcase for that - it doesn't have to be performed quickly.


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## punisher73

Thanks for putting yourself out there, that takes alot of courage.

My only comment is on Seiuchin kata.  While you are in the straddle stance, you withdraw your front foot slightly before doing the stepthrough with the rear foot.  I have always been taught that the stance is set and the rear foot glides through into the next stance without drawing the front foot back.  Again, styles/dojos vary and I wasn't sure if this is the way it was shown or not.


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## SahBumNimRush

I do not practice Seiunchin, but I do practice Chinto, Wansu, and Naihanchi (chodan, Edan, and Samdan).  I always find it interesting to see how other styles practice their forms (especially when I practice a comparable one).  As the Isshinryu versions are different enough from mine, I cannot comment on technical differences, but thanks for sharing Bill!

For a comparison, here is a video of me from a couple of years ago (I'd like to think I perform them better now.. . )

Naihanchi: (similar to the way you practice yours)





Wansu: (not quite so similar)





Chinto: (again not quite as similar)


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> Bill, you're a big and powerful guy, but I don't get the sense that you're maximizing this asset in your performance of Seiunchin.  Your arm movements appear disengaged from your body at times.  If I were your sensei, I'd ask that you practice the kata very slowly and build for a sticky, sledgehammer effect, where the swings or movements are not necessarily fast but they have a visible thud to them with the body behind every shot.  Seiunchin is a perfect showcase for that - it doesn't have to be performed quickly.



Thank you, that's interesting that you say that.  I say interesting because the last two tournaments I attended (did not compete), the winner of empty-handed kata for my division was a guy who is Shorin-Ryu and built like me; older, heavier, bald, etc.  He won both times by doing Seuinchin the way you described, which I found amazing.  Very slowly like it was Sanchin, deep breathing, every muscle tensed.  By the time he finished, it was covered in sweat.  But for whatever reason, the judges loved it.

We don't do it like that, but I do take your meaning about putting my strength into the kata.  My sensei has told me that in his opinion, my body type is best for Seiunchin if I am going to do kata in tournaments (my dojo doesn't *do* tournaments, but I do).

Thanks very much!


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## punisher73

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thank you, that's interesting that you say that. I say interesting because the last two tournaments I attended (did not compete), the winner of empty-handed kata for my division was a guy who is Shorin-Ryu and built like me; older, heavier, bald, etc. He won both times by doing Seuinchin the way you described, which I found amazing. Very slowly like it was Sanchin, deep breathing, every muscle tensed. By the time he finished, it was covered in sweat. But for whatever reason, the judges loved it.
> 
> We don't do it like that, but I do take your meaning about putting my strength into the kata. My sensei has told me that in his opinion, my body type is best for Seiunchin if I am going to do kata in tournaments (my dojo doesn't *do* tournaments, but I do).
> 
> Thanks very much!



In some Isshin-Ryu lineages the first set of three straddle stances is done with the Sanchin breathing and tension in it, the second half of the form is not.  Same with Seisan kata, after the turn the next three steps with the downblock and then palm turnover move are done with dynamic tension.


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## Bill Mattocks

punisher73 said:


> My only comment is on Seiuchin kata.  While you are in the straddle stance, you withdraw your front foot slightly before doing the stepthrough with the rear foot.  I have always been taught that the stance is set and the rear foot glides through into the next stance without drawing the front foot back.  Again, styles/dojos vary and I wasn't sure if this is the way it was shown or not.



I meant to mention that, thanks.  Yes, we do it as I am doing it, I'm pretty sure I'm doing it 'correctly' for our dojo.  When we start training a student in Seuinchin kata, they pivot of the forward foot, basically just turning on that foot 180 degrees to face the other way.  Later, our instructors show us that this eats up distance but it also pivots us into our imaginary next opponent; like 'here I am, please punch me now'.  So, we 'halve the distance' intentionally by moving both feet. I am not sure if there is any distinction made between which foot moves first, but I can ask in the dojo.  Often, on questions like that, our main sensei will say _"Just get it there,"_ meaning it's not important to the kata as long as the move is completed smoothly and balance and speed are kept.  He's a very careful person, sensitive to the lineage we are taught by Masters Mitchum and Harrill, but in some little aspects, he doesn't seem to have a preference, or in some cases he has said _"I asked Sensei (Mitchum or the late Master Harrill) and he told me, etc, etc."_  I think that foot movement is one of those; he doesn't much care how we get there as long as we get there.

That same movement also comes into play during Wansu, when turning to face the first opponent with a chop block followed by a (blocked) kick (the knee-fake kick).  In fact, I bobbled it in the Wansu video above; the turn is supposed to keep you both on the embusen and move you back slightly so that you do not turn directly into the attacker's attack.  Same foot move; but again, sensei says he doesn't care how we do it, just that we do it and don't wheel about on one foot (getting off the fight line) or step in while turning and get punched in the face while preparing the chop block.

So you could say I'm working on it; but yes, we do it like that - or at least I do and I don't think Sensei cares one way or the other.  I may ask him though, thanks.


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## dancingalone

Bill, regarding your Naihanchi, I see you turning your waist and the hips frequently as one unit, one platform, without any preloading or expression of _jin_ in your hips.  Do you work on koshi in your dojo?

For example, the way I run Naihanchi is more like this.  There's some clear hip action in the form which as I was taught is necessary to get the most of out the short fist actions within Naihanchi.

[yt]Dk91kI_76jU[/yt]


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> Bill, regarding your Naihanchi, I see you turning your waist and the hips frequently as one unit, one platform, without any preloading or expression of _jin_ in your hips.  Do you work on koshi in your dojo?



We do, and I could demonstrate it if I could edit and upload the video of the basic exercises I also took yesterday (editor keeps crashing, #&@#!). We practice koshi in everything; even when executing a straight lunge punch (seiken oi tsuki).  You could maybe see it in my Chinto when I performed downblock, guard, crane stance, kick.  The simultaneous downblock/guard/crane stand really shoots the hips to put power into that downblock; but I may not be executing it well enough to be seen; or I may simply be too fat for the movement to be noticeable.  We look for the obi ends to fly around, indicating strong fast hip movement.  Of course I realize that koshi is more than just hip movement; but to the untrained eye it appears to be a rapid powerful hip movement.

You should see my Ouchi, Ouchi!  I get it moving then, no lie.  My favorite exercise.



> For example, the way I run Naihanchi is more like this.  There's some clear hip action in the form which as I was taught is necessary to get the most of out the short fist actions within Naihanchi.



Thanks!  Yes, I can quite clearly see the movement.  I am probably supposed to be doing that in Naihanchi as well.  Will ask sensei.


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## dancingalone

Yes, it's often easier to practice things like koshi within your basics, at least at first.  I'm looking forward to seeing the film!

Below is some footage of Bajiquan which is outside the usually thought lineage of information from Chinese kung fu to karate.  Regardless, I think Baji has some wonderful things of relevance for karate-ka and I still take in the odd seminar or lesson as the opportunity presents itself.  The master on this video has great hip technique.

[yt]n2tZ-FQmvLg[/yt]


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## SahBumNimRush

Impressive hip/waist generation of force, very much inline with the mechanics of MDK TKD.  However, in the beginning of the video, it appears that his arms come upward rather than straight out when he is punching, which is different than how I was taught to strike.  Great video and impressive skill, none-the-less!


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## Bill Mattocks

dancingalone said:


> Yes, it's often easier to practice things like koshi within your basics, at least at first.  I'm looking forward to seeing the film!



Here is my attempt at Ouchi Ouchi.  Rush job on the editing, sorry.  But I think you can see the use of koshi.  Interested in your comments!






[video=youtube_share;yKPUJqcTGGc]http://youtu.be/yKPUJqcTGGc[/video]


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## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> However, in the beginning of the video, it appears that his arms come upward rather than straight out when he is punching, which is different than how I was taught to strike.



I've asked about that actually.  It has to do with the assumptions that the fighter is bisecting the opponent's centerline at 45 degrees when he enters with his attack.  They feel the arm coming upwards not only creates a superior hand/body relational posture, but it also is a natural defense when close-in.


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## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> I've asked about that actually.  It has to do with the assumptions that the fighter is bisecting the opponent's centerline at 45 degrees when he enters with his attack.  They feel the arm coming upwards not only creates a superior hand/body relational posture, but it also is a natural defense when close-in.



Can't argue with that reasoning.. . But I'm curious as to the effect a non linear force from shoulder to fist has on the wrist, I would think it would be easier to injure yourself and harder to achieve full potential of penetration.  I'm going to play around with that next week (after competition this weekend).. .


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## dancingalone

SahBumNimRush said:


> Can't argue with that reasoning.. . But I'm curious as to the effect a non linear force from shoulder to fist has on the wrist, I would think it would be easier to injure yourself and harder to achieve full potential of penetration.  I'm going to play around with that next week (after competition this weekend).. .



That's certainly the application implied and shown...but is it the real one?


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## Bill Mattocks

Just FYI, I did get my Ouchi Ouchi video uploaded but you may have missed it; it's on page 1 of the thread.  I'm interested in your observations on it.


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## dancingalone

Bill Mattocks said:


> Just FYI, I did get my Ouchi Ouchi video uploaded but you may have missed it; it's on page 1 of the thread.  I'm interested in your observations on it.



I definitely see some waggling of the hips there.  Well done.  The next step of development I see for you is to consider how to develop vertical settling at the same time using your head and backbone down to your hips and legs at the same time.   See what your sensei thinks about that.  

One drill I often recommend to my students for development of this is to stand up and sit down repeatedly and think about coiling and uncoiling at the same time and then repeat the same feeling in the opposite direction.


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## SahBumNimRush

Bill Mattocks said:


> Just FYI, I did get my Ouchi Ouchi video uploaded but you may have missed it; it's on page 1 of the thread.  I'm interested in your observations on it.



Coming from a Japanese/Okinawan rooted art that does not use Japanese terminology, could you explain to me what "ouchi ouchi" is?  As an outsider looking in, your recoiling arms appear to be generating more force than your your recoiling/snapping waist/hips.  Is this what you are intending?  

I only ask, because I am trying to educate myself, not to be critical.


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## Bill Mattocks

SahBumNimRush said:


> Coming from a Japanese/Okinawan rooted art that does not use Japanese terminology, could you explain to me what "ouchi ouchi" is?  As an outsider looking in, your recoiling arms appear to be generating more force than your your recoiling/snapping waist/hips.  Is this what you are intending?
> 
> I only ask, because I am trying to educate myself, not to be critical.



This is a block followed by two inside hook punches.  The force is generated by the twisting of the hips (actually more of the entire body, but snapping out of the body in the hips 'koshi') and indeed the arms move inwards rapidly.  The arms hang not to the sides of the body but at a slight angle to it - not quite 45 degrees.  The fists are the force appliers, not the arms.  As if the fists were lead weights on the end of a jointed stick.  In fact, this movement is seen in the 'Japanese Drum' scene in the original "Karate Kid" movie.  This is not a simple movement, but I love it.

Some think of it as a 'Tarzan' punch, and go at it like they are pounding on their own chests, but it's not that at all.  It has many applications.

Imagine an incoming straight punch; you move either in or out, as appropriate, but angle your body to intercept and redirect the punch with the first movement, where you see my hand open and vertical.  This is simulating me contacting the back of the attacker's elbow or upper arm; I am outside their frame now, and redirecting their punch away from me.  I am, however, very close to them; almost in their grill at a 45 degree angle.  I am too close to punch in the standard manner, and far too close to kick.  Now that I have entered in, I choose to strike.  I do this by dropping my hands as fists to my sides - not straight down  but at a slight angle - and applying koshi such that my fists fly up, seemingly on their own, and curl inwards, crashing into whatever the target might be.  Perhaps the bottom of their attacking arm, on the tricep or bicep.  Perhaps to the ribs or vital organs available.  The strikes can also be used twice each; strike on the way in, continue past, rotate back, strike on the way out as a hammer fist.

In fact, the bunkai for this exercise is nearly endless; our Sensei has shown us locks, punches, armbars, even throws that come out of this basic exercise.  Basically, you've deflected or redirected their blow, and you're in so close to them that they cannot effectively strike at you without moving out of your frame; everything they have is in your centerline and their own centerline faces away from you.  Western fighters tend not to expect this.  They prefer to punch to the head with overhand or roundhouse punches, in a linear fashion.  If they enter in, it's to grapple.   This is my favorite exercise because I can use my size and my strength very effectively.  The taller my opponent is, the more I have him at a disadvantage if I can enter in like this.  I settle and his tender vittles are there for my lunch, and I can eat at that lunch counter all day long!  

Here it is done by an actual expert:











At time 4:58.  We do not bend our wrists as he does, but the movement is similar.


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## Jason Striker II

Bill Mattocks said:


> Might as well get them all out there at once.  I don't have a Kusanku yet, because I'm still working on the kata, and I have not yet started on Sunsu.  But here's the rest.  I'm disgusted the more I look at them; I can't believe the things I was doing.  Low kicks, stances wrong, looking down instead of at the fight line, etc.  However, please feel free to add your comments and constructive criticism.
> 
> Seiunchin
> 
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> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;86Oab-bMRw0]http://youtu.be/86Oab-bMRw0[/video]
> 
> Naihanchi
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;f2cpEs_Zw7M]http://youtu.be/f2cpEs_Zw7M[/video]
> 
> Wansu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;IAE-DZ0w84c]http://youtu.be/IAE-DZ0w84c[/video]
> 
> Chinto
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;oFXYfLJJs4U]http://youtu.be/oFXYfLJJs4U[/video]



As a general comment on your Kata, I would say, "More definition of technique, and more Kime." The old 1960's videos of Shimabuku Sensei are not good examples (in fact, I have heard he was actually ill when doing those). The best examples I know of on Youtube are Michael Calandra - absolutely beautiful Isshin Ryu Kata.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6E2sdmcz9Q

Keep training! Osu!


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## Bill Mattocks

Jason Striker II said:


> As a general comment on your Kata, I would say, "More definition of technique, and more Kime." The old 1960's videos of Shimabuku Sensei are not good examples (in fact, I have heard he was actually ill when doing those). The best examples I know of on Youtube are Michael Calandra - absolutely beautiful Isshin Ryu Kata.
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6E2sdmcz9Q
> 
> Keep training! Osu!



Thank you for your comments!  I know I need lots more reps, more practice, more everything.  However, I had to chuckle at your comment about Shimabuku Soke. I have heard that as well; for example, at a recent Isshin-Ryu seminar, I was told to sink down further into my stance in Seuinchin.  However, we do ours higher than many; this is, for whatever reason, the way I am taught to do it.  When I mentioned this to the instructor at the seminar, he said "Shimabuku Soke, OLD MAN KATA!"  Well, yes.  He was in his 60's when he made those videos.  But given that I'm 50 and my Sensei is...well, let's say older than I am...and he's an incredible practitioner...I have a hard time equating 60 with 'old man kata'.  So yes, my group (UIKA affiliated) tend to perform the kata the way Master Mitchum wants us to.  I'm not saying I'm doing it the way he wants me to; far from it, I'm a mere beginner; but just saying that I'm *taught* to do it the way Master Mitchum wants it taught.

I say this with much humility and I know how lacking my technique is by any standards, UIKA or anyone else.  I will continue to train and seek feedback and guidance.  Just sharing an amusing story about Shimabuku Soke's videos.


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## Yondanchris

dancingalone said:


> Bill, you're a big and powerful guy, but I don't get the sense that you're maximizing this asset in your performance of Seiunchin.  Your arm movements appear disengaged from your body at times.  If I were your sensei, I'd ask that you practice the kata very slowly and build for a sticky, sledgehammer effect, where the swings or movements are not necessarily fast but they have a visible thud to them with the body behind every shot.  Seiunchin is a perfect showcase for that - it doesn't have to be performed quickly.



Ditto, although I'm a kempo guy I was expecting dynamic tension throughout the form. Take your time and "Nail It". I also have a couple questions: 

1) are your hands supposed to come down to your sides during foot maneuver transitions? 

2) Is every movement a stance change or a foot maneuver? are their "hidden" transitional stances (Cat, Horse, ect) that aren't been shown/highlighted in the form?


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## Yondanchris

Another idea is to look up the kempo principle of settling aka marriage of gravity or center of mass, both are sources of power generation that I could see implemented in the form...I will try to find a video....


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