# reletionship between instructor and student



## jthomas1600 (Sep 30, 2010)

OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?


----------



## Gorilla (Sep 30, 2010)

I think that you need to have separation!  When you become friends it adds emotion to situations.  The professional distance needs to be maintained!  A lesson that I have had to learn over the years.


----------



## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2010)

I do not teach friends and have turned down requests from a few to join my dojo.  For the usual reasons... A teacher occasionally needs to be tough with his students and friendship can get in the way of that.

For the same reasons I generally do not socialize with my kyu/gup students outside of dojo/dojang occasions.  I do have a trusted black belt student who has trained with me for over ten years and we do have dinner at each other's home from time to time.  He's an exception however since he had advanced to a level of skill close enough to me to where I no longer feel the need to use all the tools at my disposal as a teacher to make him better... he has largely become self-correcting at this point.

That said I am being somewhat hypocritical myself.  I met my wife when I enrolled at an aikido school as a complete beginner.  She was a senior brown belt who took her shodan shortly after I began and she definitely spent a lot of time in class helping me.  If she had held to the same rule I do today, we would not be married.


----------



## Omar B (Sep 30, 2010)

My first Sensei and I still have a great relationship all these years later, growing up I had a lot of admiration for him.  I went to class after school 3 evenings a week and his dojo was literally on the same street as my mother's house so I was there all weekend non stop.

My second Sensei and I were not that close, truth be told I couldn't even tell you his first name.  His two sons and I were really close though (even though one of them led to my broken knee, but kids will be kids).  We hung out all the time, on Saturday between classes we would go to the strip mall and get lunch, after second class we would go get more food, after evening class we would go to the comic shop.  Hell, they used to have some raging parties at the dojo on Saturday nights.


----------



## bribrius (Sep 30, 2010)

i think there could be something awkward or even wrong, about sleeping with your students but suppose if you are not elevating there rank based on what happens in the bedroom you are still maintaining some order.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm friends with my instructor and have been friends with students of mine.  I do tend to keep new students at an arms length.  I also am a firm believer in an instructor not using the position to get things from students other than tuition, for example money or sexual favors.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 1, 2010)

Speaking as someone who has taught professionally for 25 years, it is not appropriate. The perception of your integrity is the foundation of everything you do. If there is a perception that you are biased, it will erode the climate of your school and will affect your retention/recruitment. The danger of fraternizing, even innocently, is that you cannot control other people's perceptions or the rumor mill.

I do think there's room for an exception with a very senior student, as the relationship is perceived as collegial, or master and apprentice.

Carl


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

It sounds all very well if you are teaching professionally to students who train with you for hours every day. Most instructors don't, they only teach the students for a couple of hours a week so while it sounds admirable all this detachment etc, the students are doing it as a hobby so being friends outside the dojo is fine. It has to be real, we aren't in ancient Japan/Korea/China where 'grasshopper' is the norm, it's a sport for most and like all other sports the coaches and 'students' can be mates. 

It's good being highed minded about this but it can come across as sounding snobbish. We are teaching a sport, we're not religious gurus. We teach people to fight/defend themselves not how to live their lives.


----------



## Carol (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It sounds all very well if you are teaching professionally to students who train with you for hours every day. Most instructors don't, they only teach the students for a couple of hours a week so while it sounds admirable all this detachment etc, the students are doing it as a hobby so being friends outside the dojo is fine. It has to be real, we aren't in ancient Japan/Korea/China where 'grasshopper' is the norm, it's a sport for most and like all other sports the coaches and 'students' can be mates.
> 
> It's good being highed minded about this but it can come across as sounding snobbish. We are teaching a sport, we're not religious gurus. We teach people to fight/defend themselves not how to live their lives.



Yes, but teaching a sport can also be very big business.  There are TKD schools in the US that gross over $1,000,000 per year in revenue.  

The bigger the business, the greater importance of distance.  A savvy business person knows how to preserve their profit centers, which, clinically, is what the students are.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 1, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?


 
The relationship I have with my instructors is friendly. But we're not friends, really, not in the same way as I am friends with people I've known since high school or college or who I work with. Which isn't to say I don't respect them or that they don't respect me. I have trained with them for almost 25 years. I view them closer to how I view my own parents than how I view my friends. 

If you read the things Gen. Choi wrote about the relationship between a teacher and his students you can see that it's based on a fairly familiar model (which isn't surprising given the Neo-Confucian influence on Korean culture). The same can be said about my experience in Praying Mantis. In Kung-Fu your relation to the teacher, as well as to the other students, are more than implicitly modelled on familiar relationships ("Sifu" is a term related to "father," after all). These things don't mean you can't, or shouldn't, have a close relationship with you instructor. Quite the opposite, I'd argue. But the type of relationship isn't the same as you'd have with a "pal." 

Martial arts inherently have a link to self betterment (I'll avoid the term "self improvement" because it has too many Dr. Phil/Oprah-ian connotations for me). Part of your instructor's job is to model behavior they expect to see in their students and to foster such behavior in them. This doesn't mean they're latter day monks or speak entirely in fortunate cookie aphorisms. It means they are travelling the same _Do_, the same _way_, as you and they happen to be some distance further down the path (this can be a substantial distance or a shorter distance depending on the length of study of the student in question, as well as the personal development of the instructor in question). Part of their role is to periodically check to see how you're progressing on the way and offer direction when needed. 

A certain amount of distance (or perhaps "space" would be a better term) is helpful in the student-instructor relationship so that this role can be better performed and this advice given in a manner in which it is more likely to be accepted. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

Carol said:


> Yes, but teaching a sport can also be very big business. There are TKD schools in the US that gross over $1,000,000 per year in revenue.
> 
> The bigger the business, the greater importance of distance. A savvy business person knows how to preserve their profit centers, which, clinically, is what the students are.


 

I think I must be going wrong somewhere! I'll have to look at this especially as I may be made redundant after the upcoming Strategic Defence Review!

Everyone I know who does martial arts does it as a hobby, a serious one but still a hobby done with a class of like minded people so yes most classes are people who are mates outside. Even the couple of people I know who do martial arts for a living are mates!

We don't teach martial arts for self betterment or for any other reason other than teaching people to fight/defend themselves. what they get out of it is what they put in, we encourage good sportsmanship and self discipline. Any spiritual issues are up to the students themselves, nothing to do with us.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 1, 2010)

By 'relationship', I presume you mean 'friends' and not something else.

In my dojo, we're very much a 'family' type atmosphere.  Nobody is forced to be pals outside of the dojo, and of course no one is ostracized if they don't socialize with each other outside the dojo, but many of us choose to get together or hang out.  My wife and I are having a house-warming party on Sunday and we invited the dojo - they're more-or-less the only people we know here in Michigan anyway.

I was invited to a wedding up north in MI for a dojo-mate and attended with my wife; my sensei was there also.

I see nothing wrong with this; it seems perfectly natural and normal.  These are my friends; I like them all very much.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> *By 'relationship', I presume you mean 'friends' and not something else.*
> 
> In my dojo, we're very much a 'family' type atmosphere. Nobody is forced to be pals outside of the dojo, and of course no one is ostracized if they don't socialize with each other outside the dojo, but many of us choose to get together or hang out. My wife and I are having a house-warming party on Sunday and we invited the dojo - they're more-or-less the only people we know here in Michigan anyway.
> 
> ...


----------



## DMcHenry (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm friends with my students (which are very few).   I don't know if I'd enjoy teaching so much if I weren't.  I care about them, and believe they care about me.  In fact this weekend one of my students has invited me & my wife to spend the weekend with him and his wife at his get-away place.  We plan on doing a bit of training there too since we missed class last night.

I love having my students as friends.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 1, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?


 
It is very common. Relationships happen too, but they are often keep discreete.


----------



## Fat Cat (Oct 1, 2010)

I have found that some instructors who try to be friends are too busy being friends to be instructors.
Its really important that a line can be drawn in the sand, and where (in the case of most) such a line can not be drawn, then it's better friendship be avoided. Friendship, afterall, is not the reason the student came to the instructor for.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

Fat Cat said:


> I have found that some instructors who try to be friends are too busy being friends to be instructors.
> Its really important that a line can be drawn in the sand, and where (in the case of most) such a line can not be drawn, then it's better friendship be avoided. Friendship, afterall, is not the reason the student came to the instructor for.


 
You don't 'try' to become friends, you are or you aren't. Most people who instruct as well as train are not one dimensional. It's perfectly possible to be friend, instructor,boss, employer, employee, relative whatever and train together as instructor and students. In the dojo one leaves one's ego and in our case rank outside the door. We are martial artists when training, outside we are normal ( well relatively lol) people.

There is no line in the sand, that's over dramatic, there is commonsense which does the job nicely.


----------



## Gemini (Oct 1, 2010)

While I'm friendly with my students, I'm not friends with them. 

Anytime you have two types of relationships with a single individual, those relationships are going to bleed over from one to the other. It's human nature. Being friends with your students is the same as being friends with your direct reports (work term). Almost always, it's going to alter the definition of the relashonship from its primary purpose, which usually degrades both instead of enhancing either. Very few people can really do it successfully. Sometimes it leads to good things, but those are the exceptions, not the rule. 

People need to see you as a role model, not a peer.


----------



## jthomas1600 (Oct 1, 2010)

Thanks for all the good insight. I guess I should have clarified I just meant friends. In my 30's I took BJJ for a few years and we were a really tight group from the top to the bottom both in and out of the gym. It just seems the more traditional (maybe I mean Asian) martial arts approach this differently so I was curious as to what ya'll thought.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 1, 2010)

As a side note; 

When I was a boy, my dad used to host card games at the house on  weekends, and all his work buddies would come over and smoke cigars,  drink beer, and play cards.  I don't really know more than a couple of  my coworkers well, and only one of them well enough to invite over to my  house.

When I worked in South Korea, I noticed that when work was done for the day, all the workers in the group met up for drinks and dinner afterward.  Not all of them, not all the time, but often enough that there was always a group of a few going somewhere to do something.  I was told it is very common.

Now, on the downside...

Also when I worked in South Korea, I noted that the engineers were nearly all men.  The one woman I knew who worked in the department said that it was just the way it was - all the women she went to college with were now working janitorial jobs; she had to fight to be accepted into an engineering position and people still didn't know how to treat her exactly.  When we went out to eat as a group, often one of the men would bring along his girlfriend or wife and she would cook for us at the restaurant table (each table had a small grill at it).  The men did not generally cook for themselves ever.  So some good, some bad.


----------



## Manny (Oct 1, 2010)

I my dojang the relationship amoung Sambonim and studests is something like a Father and Son relationship, inside the dojang and outside the dojang. We treat our sambonim with respect and he treat us with all the respect too. We are not pals or budies, we are master and pupil and these does not detract the relationship a bit.

Relationship amoung students is very respectfull too, we are like brothers, you know older and yournger brothers.

The dojang must be a quiet and respectful place of harmony, is a training hall a school not a cofee shop or place for gosip. 

In the kenpo dojo I go, I am the only person who treat the sensei (he is younger then me) the same way I treat my sambonim, the rest of the guys (students) treat the sensei as their equal, lyke budies I just can't. Sensei thera all the students like budies and he treats me diferent with the same respect I treat him.

Manny


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

We definitely don't do the 'master' thing, we do the 'sensible adult' thing.

We don't doing bowing,we call each other by first names and teach each other. We have respect for everyone who trains with us and don't pretend we are Jedi with their apprentices. We train fighters and people who can defend themselves if attacked, we don't pander to egos by calling the instructors master. It's a place to learn how to use martial arts not a temple or church, there's no need for reverent silence when the chief instructor is there, ours frankly would prefer a pint of Fosters (no taste that man) in the pub afterwards. We don't do 'buddy buddy' in the club, we do 'fighters training'.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3, from your last post I see where you're coming from. From my world I see your activity more as a training group than the more formal traditional martial arts school structure. In a training group there is recognition of greater and lesser skills, but the atmosphere is informal and everyone is colleagues. I think that is fine, but shouldn't take away from the structure of a formal system--they're just different. In a more formalized structure, it's important to have some boundaries because the power is not equal.

Carl


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Tez3, from your last post I see where you're coming from. From my world I see your activity more as a training group than the more formal traditional martial arts school structure. In a training group there is recognition of greater and lesser skills, but the atmosphere is informal and everyone is colleagues. I think that is fine, but shouldn't take away from the structure of a formal system--they're just different. In a more formalized structure, it's important to have some boundaries because the power is not equal.
> 
> Carl


 

We are a martial arts club and I do run a 'traditional' class but on my travels around the country visiting other clubs and training in seminars with others I find very few buy into this 'mastership' stuff. Even the so called very traditional clubs don't behave overly formally. The TKD club I visit has a bow in at the beginning and the end, are respectful etc but don't go overborad with this master/grasshopper stuff. I train 'formally' if you like with 5th and 6th Dans in other places and they don't have this stiff, line in the sand stuff. We train seriously then go down the pub.

We aren't a training group, we have instructors, students and structure but because we are adults we don't pretend this is an Eastern mystical temple and we are training Shaolin monks. We don't need to draw boundaries to separate _us_ from _them_, our students are adults and young men, they behave every bit as well as you'd expect a 'formal' school to. the respect for the instructors is there because of what we can do, we don't have to make them keep bowing and scraping and calling us master or sensei, the respect for the students is there too because we know they try their best, put everything into their training and appreciate their training partners.
Only poor instructors to my mind insist on this separation of students and instructors to such an extent they would refuse to be friends with their students, it's egotism at it's worst. there's no humility in that and after all we are all students, just some are further along the road than others.


----------



## Carol (Oct 1, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> We are a martial arts club and I do run a 'traditional' class but on my travels around the country visiting other clubs and training in seminars with others I find very few buy into this 'mastership' stuff. Even the so called very traditional clubs don't behave overly formally. The TKD club I visit has a bow in at the beginning and the end, are respectful etc but don't go overborad with this master/grasshopper stuff. I train 'formally' if you like with 5th and 6th Dans in other places and they don't have this stiff, line in the sand stuff. We train seriously then go down the pub.
> 
> We aren't a training group, we have instructors, students and structure but because we are adults we don't pretend this is an Eastern mystical temple and we are training Shaolin monks. We don't need to draw boundaries to separate _us_ from _them_, our students are adults and young men, they behave every bit as well as you'd expect a 'formal' school to. the respect for the instructors is there because of what we can do, we don't have to make them keep bowing and scraping and calling us master or sensei, the respect for the students is there too because we know they try their best, put everything into their training and appreciate their training partners.
> Only poor instructors to my mind insist on this separation of students and instructors to such an extent they would refuse to be friends with their students, it's egotism at it's worst. there's no humility in that and after all we are all students, just some are further along the road than others.



But too casual, and you may not properly groom the student, or the student's parents, for committing to a 12-36 month contract.  The goal is to get the student signed on the bottom line.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 1, 2010)

We are pretty relaxed in the school.  We normally call each other by our first names and rarely bow to each other.  We take what we do seriously, but also realize we aren't training to go to war in a week.  Everyone shows respect to each other, not because of anyone's rank, but because everyone in the school are good people and they also have common sense.  The common sense part being that showing disrespect to a martial artist that actually knows how to fight is asking for injury.  We aren't set up on a confuscist model and no one has egoes to stroke, which if it wasn't for the subject material would make for a very laid back class.

Having said all that, I think it is wise to remember that when you agree to teach someone and they pay tuition, they are your customer.  Yes, you can be friends with your customers, but there are still lines that you should be very wary about crossing.  Cross some lines and there is no going back.  It can negatively effect your relationships with other students...who are also paying customers.


----------



## Stac3y (Oct 1, 2010)

In class, we bow, and call each other Mr. and Ms/Miss/Mrs. No one is called "Master;" and those of us who want to be friends outside the classroom are friends. Some are close friends; some are friendly acquaintances. Our organization is a club--while there is a hierarchy, we all treat each other with respect. If you can't respect your friends, who can you respect, after all?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 1, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> We are pretty relaxed in the school. We normally call each other by our first names and rarely bow to each other. We take what we do seriously, but also realize we aren't training to go to war in a week. Everyone shows respect to each other, not because of anyone's rank, but because everyone in the school are good people and they also have common sense. The common sense part being that showing disrespect to a martial artist that actually knows how to fight is asking for injury. We aren't set up on a confuscist model and no one has egoes to stroke, which if it wasn't for the subject material would make for a very laid back class.
> 
> Having said all that, I think it is wise to remember that when you agree to teach someone and they pay tuition, they are your customer. Yes, you can be friends with your customers, but there are still lines that you should be very wary about crossing. Cross some lines and there is no going back. It can negatively effect your relationships with other students...who are also paying customers.


 
Exactly!

 We don't have customers though, the subs we pay go into the club for equipment, insurances, costs, subsidising uniforms and kit etc, no one gets paid and everyone knows what money comes in and what goes out and where, we do all the same try to make it good value for money. Our instructor doesn't take any money out of any purse our fighters get either, it's all theirs. As instructors we carry the cost of our own insurance (much dearer than students), travelling costs, kits and stuff like that. I will pay for stuff for the kids class too if we don't have enough in the kitty.


----------



## bribrius (Oct 1, 2010)

interesting. I have never been to a school where you could speak with anything less formal than sir. And even my kids tkd school,liberal by my standards, there is still no talking allowed and formal address required, and yes, you need to bow.


----------



## Manny (Oct 1, 2010)

My dojang is atradional one not a training center (like my kenpo dojo), I really apreciate and love we have lots of respect for each other and we had traditions too.

Myself foe example, entering the dojang I bow and say good evening to my sambonim and his wife (also a sambonim) no mather they are on the mat or in the office, this is my way of say Hellow teachers I am here to take the class. The sambonims say to mee good evening and please come in.

I say good evening to any one in the waiting hall, mothers,fathers,children,students,etc.

Before I get inside the locker room I bow to the training room (mat) where the flags are, the sambonim is (if he is teaching) and to the students.

Before entering the mat I ask permition to the sambonim and again I bow, we do meditation and then bow to the flags and the sambonim at the begining and in the end.

Every time I must leave or enter the mat I have to bow. When I am leaving the dojang I say good night and bow.

Maybe too much bows and formality but this is the way I think it should be.

We call our techers sambonims and the sambonims call ur for our first or last name but using the word mister or madam before the name.

I am the oldest men afther the sambonim he calls me always Don Manuel, Don is a word that it's a more respectful word than señor (mister) and everyone one in the dojang calls me Don Manuel this reflects a lot of respect cause the word Don is more higher than mister.

We also call our sambonim Profesor (Teacher).

The dojang or training hall is a place full of respect,harmony,martiality and loyalty.... but not a Shaolin Temple.

Just my two cents.

manny


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 1, 2010)

There's a difference between respecting someone, and showing them the trappings of respect.  I consider my teacher a friend and advisor -- but I call him "Joe", and have shared more than few meals with him.  I address our chief instructor by his earned academic title, or as "sir" because I respect him -- but I also consider him as a friend.

I've had students and classmates become close friends.  I've had others who never made that transition...  That's just how it goes.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Oct 1, 2010)

The relationships I've always had have grown closer based on rank.  By the time we got to BB, our instructor invited us over to his house.  I hung out with his daughter sometimes (she was 3rd dan and would have knocked me out if i had tried anything).  The only students I've grown close to, are the ones that have had the commitment to stick it out.  They teach with me now, except one that is in college, and I'm going down to see him next weekend.  I do have two adult students that are friends with one of my BB, we might all have a cookout because we all have kids and the kids playing together gives us all a break.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 2, 2010)

Mpst of us here live in Western countries and live by Western mores so why are we so keen to ape a philosophy from the East? Especially as we would only do it for a couple of hours a week or however long we train, it doesn't carry over into the rest of our lives, we don't bow to the boss or the shop keeper ( remembering to do bows of different height for each) we don't follow Eastern religions nor do we keep the strict social code so why so keen to do it in martial arts and lose the potential friendship of others among other things?

In Japan, China, Korea etc the way they behave when training reflects their whole lives, it's something we don't have here so trying to recreate a tiny bit of it out of context in the dojo is false. It's like role playing Star Wars and us pretending to be Jedis and their apprentices. The Japanese bow to each other outside the dojo, its their custom to do so, carrying it into martial arts is natural as is the carrying of their philosophy into martial arts. Bowing when you come in and out of the training area, bowing to the instrcutor and to your training partner and/or opponent is enough. Bow to your own flag if you must though a salute would probably be more technically correct (bracing up as we say in the military even more correct), why are you bowing to other countries flags just because the founder of your style came from there?   

Everyone should be polite, far more than they are but that's a whole different thread lol, as many posters have said the respect is there without the Eastern trappings, you can't make it happen with loads of bowing and calling everyone by titles.

Training with people, teaching them and training under them create bonds which can be unbreakable, To suffocate and kill potential friendships as well as creativity, genuine love for the martial under under a pile of so called 'etiquette' seems to me to be ridiculous. I don't see either why dojos are suppose to be 'serene' places, I doubt very much they are in Japan, look at what you are learning! I suspect in Japan they are serious, hard working and concentrating hard on what they are doing....just like us! 

Okay rant stand easy chaps


----------



## seasoned (Oct 2, 2010)

Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a bond and camaraderie, not seen in our everyday lives.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Mpst of us here live in Western countries and live by Western mores so why are we so keen to ape a philosophy from the East? Especially as we would only do it for a couple of hours a week or however long we train, it doesn't carry over into the rest of our lives, we don't bow to the boss or the shop keeper ( remembering to do bows of different height for each) we don't follow Eastern religions nor do we keep the strict social code so why so keen to do it in martial arts and lose the potential friendship of others among other things?<<<
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Because the MA for some is more like a military system than buying a cookie.  I tell my students that they don't have enough money to buy what I am providing

Or perhaps it is sorely lacking elsewhere (outside the Military) aand badly needed in most societies vis a vis courtesy , integrity and other values. 

we do not bow to any other flag.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2010)

Some relationships require a certain amount of personal detachment to work best.  Are we 'best friends forever' with our doctors, lawyers, or even our pastors?  How about our direct reports at work?  

I submit that sometimes our professional roles require some hard truths to be said, and it is difficult to do this if just last Saturday night we were hanging out together at each other's homes and drinking a few beers.

SOME people can make it work.  Not everyone is that mature or able to isolate their personal life from some other environment like work or practice at the dojo.

It is not aping Asian culture to want to maintain a certain separation from one's students in order to *serve* them better.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 2, 2010)

Some of you may be professional instructors, we aren't, we are only that bit further along the road of learning than the students. We aren't paid to teach nor do the students pay to learn, the subs we pay cover the cost of our kit and things like that. There simply isn't the doctor, lawyer type relationship involved in our case and of many martial artists I know. My JKD class isn't like that either and there I'm a complete beginner.


As most of our students are military there is little need to have a military system in place in martial arts but again I've seen very few civvy clubs who take a military slant on their training.

Seasoned, I love your post, it's exactly how I see training and my fellow martial artists. They are very special people to me and the loss of one of them diminishes us all.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Some of you may be professional instructors, we aren't, we are only that bit further along the road of learning than the students. We aren't paid to teach nor do the students pay to learn, the subs we pay cover the cost of our kit and things like that. There simply isn't the doctor, lawyer type relationship involved in our case and of many martial artists I know. My JKD class isn't like that either and there I'm a complete beginner.


 
 I charge my serious karate students $25 a month.  It goes into a fund to buy mats and other training equipment as needed, rather than into my pockets.  I teach TKD for free at my church.  

Money doesn't have to enter the picture for a teacher to want to maintain a 'professional' relationship with his students.  Sometimes my students need me to be a little hard with them whether with words or in my instruction, so I maintain my distance so I can help them in this way.  It's easy enough to be buddy, buddy - this requires no sacrifice at all from the teacher.  Same with parenting.  It's a lot easier for me to let my little boy eat all the candy he can and watch all the tv he wants.  I don't because I know there are better alternatives for him.  It is the same with martial arts instruction.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a bond and camaraderie, not seen in our everyday lives.



Seasoned, I would argue that this is a natural consequence of classmates training hard together and it should indeed be appreciated and even encouraged.  However, I am not so sure it should be the case with sensei and their students and sometimes even sempai and kohai if their ages and skill levels are far apart.  The separation helps the senior person to instruct their juniors.


----------



## Blindside (Oct 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Money doesn't have to enter the picture for a teacher to want to maintain a 'professional' relationship with his students.  Sometimes my students need me to be a little hard with them whether with words or in my instruction, so I maintain my distance so I can help them in this way.  It's easy enough to be buddy, buddy and requires no sacrifice at all from the teacher.  Same with parenting.  It's a lot easier for me to let my little boy eat all the candy he can and watch all the tv he wants.  I don't because I know there are better alternatives for him.  It is the same with martial arts instruction.



I think my instructor can be harder on me (or his other students that are his friends) than other students because we are close friends and we expect that level of criticism.  I don't think a student-instructor relationship is analogous to a father-son relationship, particularly when both the student and instructor are adults.


----------



## bribrius (Oct 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Some relationships require a certain amount of personal detachment to work best. Are we 'best friends forever' with our doctors, lawyers, or even our pastors? How about our direct reports at work?
> 
> I submit that sometimes our professional roles require some hard truths to be said, and it is difficult to do this if just last Saturday night we were hanging out together at each other's homes and drinking a few beers.
> 
> ...


 
thankyou. From somone that has paid for their instruction and is now paying for their childs instruction.  I don't like the idea of paying for a time to socialize.  Making friends, great. But that isn't what is being paid for. In fact students that socialize and interrupt other students learning and progress i would suggest they not be allowed to return. Equally the same for interrupting parents. Same with assistant instructors that cross that line and could disrupt instruction. 

Coming from a teacher i once had when addressing people socializing-  "You or someone pays for you to be here, now is not the time."  I was under the impression much of the formality was to both teach discipline and respect but also maintain order so that the students can progress and the class can progress. Without organization i don't see how the time can be used efficiently because of constant distractions and a lack of seriousness. My kids can play with their friends in the back yard or in other activity like girlscouts/boyscouts or kids club, they dont need to make friends and play in their ma class. 

when you walk into the school and bow leaving the rest of it outside is something i think could be important. 

each has their reasons and preferences however, this is just mine.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2010)

Blindside said:


> I think my instructor can be harder on me (or his other students that are his friends) than other students because we are close friends and we expect that level of criticism. * I don't think a student-instructor relationship is analogous to a father-son relationship*, particularly when both the student and instructor are adults.



Depends on the martial art.  There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts.  I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.

Familiarity breeds contempt.  It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'.  In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn.  And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.  

If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great.  On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view.  I think there's some weight to ponder there.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Depends on the martial art. There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts. I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.
> 
> Familiarity breeds contempt. It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'. In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn. And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.
> 
> If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great. On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view. I think there's some weight to ponder there.


 

Familiarity breeds. 

It's a sport, a hobby, a pastime, hardly on par with medicine, teaching or therapy.

It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it would be different and it wouldn't come out as pompous when people say there should be separation between students and their instructors. 

My first karate instructor was more than half my age, he taught me karate as he should. It wasn't life skills, spirituality etc it was fighting and self defence. My current instructor is younger than me, he teaches me even better fighting and self defence. To be honest I don't know any martial artist that wants anything other than learning the martial art from their class, they appreciate and enjoy the respect, politieness and sportsmanship but that isn't unique to martial arts. the friendship element is a big part of it for many too, as Seasoned put it so well.

Parents find it difficult to teach kids anything, its not just martial arts, it's any sport and driving a car!


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It's a sport, a hobby, a pastime, hardly on par with medicine, teaching or therapy.
> 
> It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd  weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to  most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it  would be different and it wouldn't come out as *pompous when people say  there should be separation between students and their instructors. *



To you, it may be.  I trained martial arts full time for over 10 years of my early adulthood, traveling to gain the best teachers I could.  I had no job in those days and I took my endeavor seriously.  These days I still train or teach over 15 hours a week and I would do more if I could.  Martial arts is no mere hobby to me.  I take it every bit as important, worthy of time and dedication, as my professional career in which I earn my living.

And I do not know why you feel the need to call others who disagree with your view point 'pompous'.  Can you not accept that other people might have a position contrary to yours yet still be equally valid?  Why the insulting language?  ('Aping' is another word with a negative connotation to it.)



> Parents find it difficult to teach kids anything, its not just martial arts, it's any sport and driving a car!


Parents and friends both.  As I said above, it is far easier to be friends with one's students.  It takes rather more sacrifice and discipline to consciously do the 'non-fun' things to hopefully be a better teacher.


----------



## Master Dan (Oct 2, 2010)

As a master Instructor there has to be by that time intuition developed to do what is needed and what is right. I hear many seminars related to only the business of tkd and don't do this or that but in many cases you may be the only role model or decent example of a good or normal person in a developing students life. One thing my master taught me is that you must not play favorites you must be fair and equal rules with all. I would put it to many that Money has just as big as effect on many teachers judgmetn as personal relationships? I believe that a master owes his life to be put in harms way for his students if needed but that also requires a commitment from the student as well. My students and I eat, hunt, fish, hike, prospect for gold, do science projects and do other art forms plus education because that is the purpose of tkd the science of learning and living not just punches and kicks. My legacy is not a state, national or international sport fighter but a person who is happy can defend themselves and that means self sufficient in family and finances. Master Dan


----------



## Blindside (Oct 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Depends on the martial art.  There is definitely an elder/junior connection in some arts.  I would throw karate and taekwondo into that group.
> 
> Familiarity breeds contempt.  It takes a very mature person to put aside his personal relationships to just learn 'in the moment'.  In our personal lives we often find ourselves tuning out a person - maybe as a young adult we think 'oh, it's just Dad ranting again' when Dad is trying to impart some life lessons he thinks is very important for his son to learn.  And we have often discussed here on MT how difficult it is for a parent to teach his child MA personally.
> 
> If it works for you (figuratively) to be friends with your instructors and students, then great.  On the other hand, there is ample opinion on the other side in various fields (teaching, medicine, therapy, etc) that holds the opposite view.  I think there's some weight to ponder there.



Just because it was taught that way in Japan or Korea doesn't mean it needs to be taught the same way here.  

I think the "head instructor" format works very well with kids, it provides a structure and discipline to the learning process, just as I think the whole belt thing is a useful tool for those groups as well.  But for adults?  Not so much.  I don't teach kids, the average age of my student is in their mid-thirties, eighty percent of them have had some previous training, half of them are instructor ranked in other arts, two of them have more time in the arts than I do.  They are looking for a guide in the art(s) that I teach, not some aloof sensei.  They largely know how to learn, how to take criticism, and they set examples of how to be a student for the few martial newbies that show up in my classes.  

Lamont


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 3, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Just because it was taught that way in Japan or Korea doesn't mean it needs to be taught the same way here.



Never said it had to be.  I'm only offering an explanation as to why some might prefer to be more reserved with their students.  And the reverse of your statement is just as valid:  why not teach an Asian martial art with some trappings of Asian culture if you can?  

There is no right or wrong answer with this.  




Blindside said:


> I think the "head instructor" format works very well with kids, it provides a structure and discipline to the learning process, just as I think the whole belt thing is a useful tool for those groups as well.  But for adults?  Not so much.  I don't teach kids, the average age of my student is in their mid-thirties, eighty percent of them have had some previous training, half of them are instructor ranked in other arts, two of them have more time in the arts than I do.  They are looking for a guide in the art(s) that I teach, not some aloof sensei.  They largely know how to learn, how to take criticism, and they set examples of how to be a student for the few martial newbies that show up in my classes.



Whatever works for you.  Not sure how Filipino systems are, but you also do American kenpo, correct?  I believe Mr. Parker intentionally sought to remove Asian terminology and mores when he designed his system.  It makes sense that you might share some of the same views.

I don't see how that changes anything for those who feel differently however, even without weighing in with the cultural aspect.  I don't have the luxury of being a guide as you do.  While the majority of my serious students are adults, none of them frankly were anywhere near as capable as I am when they started training with me.  Thus, I AM their teacher in every meaning of the word.

I am repeating myself, but sometimes an instructor is also a coach, a motivator.  And sometimes, that means using negative reinforcement tools like giving your students a good chewing out.  Sometimes to instill toughness in your students, maybe even a bit of a physical lesson is needed from time to time, whether through demonstration (I can do it, so can you) or other means.  I don't mean to sound 'pompous' or tyrannical, but IMO this is part of being a good teacher:  it is not all fun and roses, and I would find it difficult myself to be able to use all of these measures with people I am on good social terms with.


----------



## Drac (Oct 3, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?


 

My Instructor is a longtime friend..


----------



## Blindside (Oct 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> There is no right or wrong answer with this.



Of course there isn't, and it isn't just a style thing, though certainly the FMA tend to be far less regimented.  One of my kenpo instructors maintains a very distant relationship with his students, you can feel it in the class, you come in train, go home, there is no sense of family.  My other kenpo instructor is the instructor in class and a good friend to many of his senior students outside of class.  We have talked about this very issue, about how he almost quit instructing because of personal issues that conflicted between those "friend" and "instructor" roles.  But, even with those experiences he wouldn't have it any other way, I wouldn't either.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 3, 2010)

Blindside said:


> My other kenpo instructor is the instructor in class and a good friend to many of his senior students outside of class.  We have talked about this very issue, about how he almost quit instructing because of personal issues that conflicted between those "friend" and "instructor" roles.  But, even with those experiences he wouldn't have it any other way, I wouldn't either.



Fit is important.  Different people want different things from their instructors.  We should definitely train where we are comfortable with the atmosphere and the type of instruction.

I do participate in a training group with other martial artists and instructors from a variety of backgrounds.  It's run as more of a collaborative session than an imparting of lessons, although I certainly learn something each time we meet.  This type of organization, essentially a sharing of equals, works because that is what the members need.  On the other hand, it probably would not translate well to my church TKD class where the students, many whom are minors, are all mostly new to martial arts and they are looking for a experience complete with drill leaders and role models.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2010)

To those of you that enjoy the ultra-polite classes with the bowing and sirs, could explain why you enjoy that?  I've been in schools like that and have seen some people respond very well in that type of class.  Me personally, I find it sometimes gets in the way of just learning.  Perhaps it is because I have seen the formality thing taken too far.  One of the things I enjoy the most about the school I belong too is that we do joke around a bit even with the head instructor, but we are still very focused on the Wing Chun.  There is a lot of respect between all the students and the instructor, but it isn't the repsect of the titles or sash colors, but for the persons.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 3, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> To those of you that enjoy the ultra-polite classes with the bowing and sirs, could explain why you enjoy that?



You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on.  I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class.  You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work.  Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So.  I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring.  Is it in your book?


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on. I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class. You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work. Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So. I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring. Is it in your book?


 
For my taste, it does seem a bit much.  Please understand, I'm not critisizing.  If it works for you, that's great.  Bowing at the beginning and end of class, I understand that.  Everything in between, just seems a tad too formal for my taste and wonder what the draw of the formality would be.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Oct 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> You probably need to define how much bowing and 'sirring' is going on.  I have my classes bow in at the beginning and end of class.  You also bow to your partner at the beginning and end of any partner work.  Students call me Sensei or Sabum or Sir or Mister So and So.  I do not believe this to be excessive bowing nor sirring.  Is it in your book?



Drop the 'sir' and you have my class.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 3, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> For my taste, it does seem a bit much.  Please understand, I'm not critisizing.  If it works for you, that's great.  Bowing at the beginning and end of class, I understand that.  Everything in between, just seems a tad too formal for my taste and wonder what the draw of the formality would be.



It's just part of the ritual.  Sometimes rituals do have practical purposes - perhaps they help trigger a state of mind that you are about to get to work, whether it is sparring or a collaborative drill with your partner.  And if it doesn't, well there's plenty within martial arts that don't always seem practical.  White uniforms are one example when black ones would perhaps be more utilitarian.

I do think style comes into play here.  What I described is rather common in TKD and karate classes.  In fact, I would be somewhat surprised if someone told me they took a 'traditional' TKD or karate class yet did not have the partner bowing.  I also study aikido and if anything manners are even more formal there.  

It is fine if you don't like it.   I certainly am not offended.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 3, 2010)

bluewaveschool said:


> Drop the 'sir' and you have my class.



I actually consider 'Sir' to be less formal (and polite) among the other options.  It's rather generic and doesn't require the intimacy of calling you 'teacher' or using your own correct name.

But it is certainly more polite than 'Hey, You!'.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 4, 2010)

Sir or ma'am is different from how we address people on the street, but that's part of the formality of the dojang, IMO.

We deal in potentially dangerous techniques, so additional discipline and attention are appropriate. Are they essential? Perhaps not, but I do think they encourage a level of courtesy too often absent. There was a long thread awhile back on formality in the dojang that relates to this topic.

I think this difference is especially important with young people, as the language and discipline reinforces the idea that taekwondo is not a toy, whose techniques you take out on the playground.

Carl


----------



## seasoned (Oct 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Seasoned, I would argue that this is a natural consequence of classmates training hard together and it should indeed be appreciated and even encouraged. However, I am not so sure it should be the case with sensei and their students and sometimes even sempai and kohai *if their ages and skill levels are far apart.* The separation helps the senior person to instruct their juniors.


As a Sensei with many years of training, I have long standing students of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 4, 2010)

seasoned said:


> As a Sensei with many years of training, I have long standing students of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.



How long did it take for you to become friends?  Immediately?  1 year, 2 years?  As I related above, I have a senior student who I now consider a trusted friend, but I did not permit myself to befriend him until well after he had achieved a good level of excellence himself.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 4, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Sir or ma'am is different from how we address people on the street, but that's part of the formality of the dojang, IMO.
> 
> We deal in potentially dangerous techniques, so additional discipline and attention are appropriate. Are they essential? Perhaps not, but I do think they encourage a level of courtesy too often absent. There was a long thread awhile back on formality in the dojang that relates to this topic.
> 
> ...


 
I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, that courtesy and respect are present without the formality.  Everyone in the school respects one another and is courtious, not because it is some school rule, but because that is the natural inclination of each student. There have been peple come in who don't show those things, but they never last very long because the lessons an ego that won't repsct others tends not to take very much bruising.  One of our phylosophies of teaching is that to know it, you must experience it.  After you experience what we teach, there is no doubt left about how serious what we do can be.  It all play...serious play


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 4, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> I understand what you are saying, but in my opinion, that courtesy and respect are present without the formality.  Everyone in the school respects one another and is courtious, not because it is some school rule, but because that is the natural inclination of each student. There have been peple come in who don't show those things, but they never last very long because the lessons an ego that won't repsct others tends not to take very much bruising.  One of our phylosophies of teaching is that to know it, you must experience it.  After you experience what we teach, there is no doubt left about how serious what we do can be.  It all play...serious play



Again, there is no right or wrong way here.  Go with whatever fits your temperament.  

The added formality is useful in large classes or when the number of children in the class is high.  It helps as another layer of organization and 'control' for the teacher.  If your classes are 1-6 adults or so, you probably can dispense with a lot of it.


----------



## seasoned (Oct 4, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Some of my best friends came out of my martial arts training. It is a combination of training together, enduing challenges, reveling in each others triumphs. There is a *bond and camaraderie,* not seen in our everyday lives.


As a martial Artist, this specks for itself.



seasoned said:


> As a Sensei with many years of training, I have *long standing students* of whom, are some of my best friends. Remember, a Sensei becomes ageless, and a students skill level is enhanced with time.


Ditto.



dancingalone said:


> How long did it take for you to become friends? Immediately? 1 year, 2 years? As I related above, I have a senior student who I now consider a *trusted* friend, but I did not permit myself to befriend him until well after he had achieved a good level of excellence himself.


Key word is* trust*, many years. Martial Arts are not geared toward making friends, but a dojo should indeed be friendly. I don't believe a Sensei should make it a point to befriend his students, but, he should be approachable. I believe there is a point in time, in the higher Dan ranks that a certain bond has taken place that lends itself to friendships.


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Again, there is no right or wrong way here. Go with whatever fits your temperament.
> 
> The added formality is useful in large classes or when the number of children in the class is high. It helps as another layer of organization and 'control' for the teacher. If your classes are 1-6 adults or so, you probably can dispense with a lot of it.


 

I didn't think about the children thing.   It would indeed make sense to have the discipline of a very formal class if a lot of children are attending.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2010)

This may sound odd but the thing our childrens class needs more than anything else is security. We aren't formal in the childrens class, they call us by our first names, they bow at the start and the beginning and to each other if they spar but the overwelming thing they need is security and knowing we are there for them. Discipline is easy to maintain twth them, it just tkaes a look from me usually to get tham back in line, I do the talking to bit if it needs it.

We aren't friends as such with the children but they do look at us and hopefully see more than just people who take them for martial arts. We end up talking often when something comes up as a result of a techniques we are doing. 

I do realise that our situation is different from most places, and certainly very different from the commerical belt factories. At the end of the month the dynamic in the club will change when the Brigade is back from deployment. The strain, worry and fear that haunts everyone will be over for eighteen months or so when it all starts again. However their is a period of adjustment for the families so we still need to be that constant in the childrens lives. We are only a very small cog in a larger machine but we hope we do our bit.


----------



## ETinCYQX (Oct 11, 2010)

My current instructor is the first one I have ever had that I have any social interaction with. Part of that is that Mr. Lee is my first instructor as an adult, I'm sure, but we socialize quite often outside of the dojang. However, more often than not I refer to him as "Sir" or "Mr. Lee". 

It certainly changes the dynamic in classes, and I won't comment on "better" or "worse". It is different, and I appreciate the opportunity to get to know my instructor outside of the dojang.

My Judo sensei, however, is a close friend of my parents and has known me for my entire life. That can be a little odd at times, but IMO one needs to seperate "Sensei" from "Chris", if you know what I mean. Inside and outside the class are two different things.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Oct 11, 2010)

One needs to be able to turn it on and off. 

I consider my Sensei to be my friend and my instructor. He lives a two minutes walk from my place, during my dry spells when I cant get to practice, I pop over to his place and see how hes doing. He invites us to his cottage whenever we want, just ask for the key and go, for as long as you would like. 

We are all adults, ranging anywhere from 18 to 65, so act like an adult. 

No matter how easy going we can be in class, in class he is still the boss. If you dont like it, leave. Away from the dojo, at other clubs, at seminars or at gradings we represent him and the club, so we had better act correctly or we will hear about it.


----------



## BloodMoney (Oct 11, 2010)

We only use first names, sometimes there might be an 'instructor' in front of it (ie: Instructor John) but even that we have done away with largely.

Out of habit we all often call the head of our school "Master Kevin" but in talking with him I would just call him Kevin. I would consider him a friend, we have hung out socially before and he often holds BBQ's at his house for all students etc. As one of my instructors once put it "we are kung fu brothers" and there is definitely a sense of that comradeship in our association. As we dont use ranks or belts everyone just knows whos more skilled and whos a beginner, its simple. You know whos your older brother and whos a junior to you, and everyone is shown the same respect regardless of 'rank'.

The only formality we have is to bow to each other at the end of class, but that goes for me too, I bow to all the students in respect and to thank them for training at my club, they bow in thanks for me taking the class.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 13, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> OK, so I know a few here are instructors and many are long time martial arts practitioners. Is it common for instructors and students to be friends outside of the dojang? Do most instructors feel there needs to be a degree of separation?



it is a BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD idea to try and be friends with your students.

you can make a friend your student, but you should NEVER make a student your friend.


----------



## bluewaveschool (Oct 13, 2010)

I wouldn't make a white belt my friend, but I've become friends with those that have been able to stick with it for the long haul.  I'm friends with all my current BB, I wasn't when they were beginners.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 13, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> This may sound odd but the thing our childrens class needs more than anything else is security.


 
To me, security comes from clear, positive expectations consistently applied, and patient instruction accompanied by praise. It's no different with kids than adults. If you don't feel some level of that, you won't stay. Credibility is earned.

Looking back at this thread, the common ground seems to be that you can be friends with long standing students who have the maturity to understand and work with two different roles in two different situations--student and friend.

It's also pretty clear than there are some people who you don't want as friends but will accept as students.

The line between the two is defined by the individual master, but mistakes can be damaging to your school. Each school I've visited takes on the personality of its master. How can it be otherwise?


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 14, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> To me, security comes from clear, positive expectations consistently applied, and patient instruction accompanied by praise. It's no different with kids than adults. If you don't feel some level of that, you won't stay. Credibility is earned.
> 
> Looking back at this thread, the common ground seems to be that you can be friends with long standing students who have the maturity to understand and work with two different roles in two different situations--student and friend.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think you understand the children I teach and why they need security at the moment.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 14, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think you understand the children I teach and why they need security at the moment.


 
I have read your posts over time, and can at least guess why your kids might have extra needs. I don't think that goes against what I'm saying. Kids look to adults to provide structure and meaning in what can be a confusing and scary world. Kids need orderliness, predictability, and boundaries. They also need high expectations, patient instruction, and encouragement to get 'em to shine. That doesn't mean you can't show them warmth and affection at all. They need lots of that too. At the other extreme, it's hard to get very far with a full class of kids if you're just their buddy--being a leader requires taking charge and getting some level of attention and obedience. As a teacher of special needs kids, I can tell you that both rapport and structure are essential. I suspect we're more in agreement than not. It sounds like you have a good feel for your kids, in which case they are lucky to have you.

Carl


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 14, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> I have read your posts over time, and can at least guess why your kids might have extra needs. I don't think that goes against what I'm saying. Kids look to adults to provide structure and meaning in what can be a confusing and scary world. Kids need orderliness, predictability, and boundaries. They also need high expectations, patient instruction, and encouragement to get 'em to shine. That doesn't mean you can't show them warmth and affection at all. They need lots of that too. At the other extreme, it's hard to get very far with a full class of kids if you're just their buddy--being a leader requires taking charge and getting some level of attention and obedience. As a teacher of special needs kids, I can tell you that both rapport and structure are essential. I suspect we're more in agreement than not. It sounds like you have a good feel for your kids, in which case they are lucky to have you.
> 
> Carl


 
Thanks! the past few months have been very tough for most of us here, we just have a few more weeks until the end of November to go. We have kids ( and their families) who's nerves are shredded. What we have now are the recovering wounded back, it's quite unnerving to see to be honest.



I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class. I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo.  There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different. If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?


----------



## WC_lun (Oct 14, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Thanks! the past few months have been very tough for most of us here, we just have a few more weeks until the end of November to go. We have kids ( and their families) who's nerves are shredded. What we have now are the recovering wounded back, it's quite unnerving to see to be honest.
> 
> 
> 
> I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class. I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo. There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different. If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine, if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?


 

I agree that a lot of the seperatedness and formality in _some _schools is a direct result of the head instructor's ego and lack of real skill or teaching ability.  I've actually seen this a lot, unfortunately.

I'm friendly, but not friends with new students.  I need them to follow instruction and build a level of trust based upon martial arts and my instruction of it first.  They pay to learn that and it can't be achieved if they are trying to be all buddy-buddy.  After those things are learned, then true friendship can happen without the training being effected.

Too me it is the same as a teacher at a college befriending students.  At the beginning of a semester it could be inappropriate.  After some time has passed, more acceptable.  Sexual relationships with current students are still a big no-no in my book though.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 14, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I think a great amount of this instructor 'aura' of separateness is nonsense and often designed to enhance an intructor's ego rather than any good atmosphere within a class.* I was watching a programme on Okinawan karate the other day and they certainly didn't have all the bowing and formality one would have expected plus they were all friends and neighbours outside the dojo. *



Methinks someone has never trained in an Okinawan karate dojo with Okinawan instructors.  Some are relaxed, some are decidedly not.   

Again, it is a mistake to generalize and try to make one's own prejudices apply to everyone else, especially based on watching a television program.



> There's no reason not to be friends with people you want to be friends with just because you teach them martial arts a couple of hours a week, people manage friendships in other sports and pastimes, there's no reason for martial arts to be different.



Your opinion.  It's only as as valid as that of anyone else, some who have disagreed and given sound reasons why.



> If you are an instructor and you are any good you'll be fine,* if you are a lousy instructor I'm guessing you need that separateness *and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to you' thing going on. We are all people, we have multi layered relationships going on all the time, people are friends with bosses and employees, people from different backgrounds all the time. Egos and the trappings of the outside world are left at the dojo door so why wouldn't friendships work outside that door?



More insulting language aimed at people who have different views?


----------



## dortiz (Oct 14, 2010)

How funny,
In class the other night I randomly reverted to saying Ous! My teacher laughed sinced he too had taken Karate way back when. We both commented that coming from such a rigid environment its clearly drilled in to you. There are always exceptions but certainly not the karate that I was exposed to.


----------



## StudentCarl (Oct 14, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> I'm friendly, but not friends with new students. I need them to follow instruction and build a level of trust based upon martial arts and my instruction of it first. They pay to learn that and it can't be achieved if they are trying to be all buddy-buddy. After those things are learned, then true friendship can happen without the training being effected.


 
Well said.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 14, 2010)

dortiz said:


> How funny,
> In class the other night I randomly reverted to saying Ous! My teacher laughed sinced he too had taken Karate way back when. We both commented that coming from such a rigid environment its clearly drilled in to you. There are always exceptions but certainly not the karate that I was exposed to.



What karate was that, Dave?  Kyokushin?  They love to shout 'Oss'!


----------



## dortiz (Oct 14, 2010)

You are good! Yup : )


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Methinks someone has never trained in an Okinawan karate dojo with Okinawan instructors. Some are relaxed, some are decidedly not.
> 
> Again, it is a mistake to generalize and try to make one's own prejudices apply to everyone else, especially based on watching a television program.
> 
> ...


 


Methinks my instructor has and has brought back the ethos he was taught there.


Insulting language? what the hell are you on about man? You don't have to like my opinions but don't read insult all the time, thats just boring. There are bad instuctors out there who use the 'sensei mystique' to hide behind, I've seen them, *I haven't said anyone here is a bad instructor* at all so don't snipe at me. You haven't had a go at one poster who said you must never ever be friends with anyone you train with but chose to have a go at me, interesting. If you have a problem with me PM me instead of getting at me in public. 

As instructors in our club we don't see ourselves as the type of instuctors who are remote or in charge all the time, we have students who are more experienced than myself, we have students who know nothing but I also work with many of my students in various roles some of which are more risky than others, we simply don't have the same way of working. I don't like being told that *never ever* am I supposed to be friends with my students, it simply doesn't work in our club. In your huge schools where you take loads of money perhaps that's what works for you, we don't pay for instruction, we aren't formal and we will be friends with whoever we want to be, it's works for us.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Methinks my instructor has and has brought back the ethos he was taught there.



At least you're not invoking a tv show now as evidence that Okinawan instructors are always casual and informal.



Tez3 said:


> Insulting language? what the hell are you on about man? You don't have to like my opinions but don't read insult all the time, thats just boring.



The lady doth protest too much.

Exhibit A:



Tez3 said:


> It's something most people do for a couple of hours a week and the odd  weekend, they work hard at it, love it, enjoy it but that's all it is to  most people. If they were full time students in a full time dojo it  would be different and *it wouldn't come out as pompous when people say  there should be separation between students and their instructors*.



Exhibit B:



Tez3 said:


> If you are an instructor and you are any  good you'll be fine, *if you are a lousy instructor *I'm guessing you need  that separateness and that 'don't talk to sensei unless he talks to  you' thing going on.



The implication you make is rather clear in those passages.   Teachers who are detached intentionally from their students are both "pompous" and "lousy".  You said it.  Therefore I take issue with it.  You did use insulting language... at least in the English I write and speak, both pompous and lousy have negative connotations.  




Tez3 said:


> There are bad instuctors out there who use the 'sensei mystique' to hide behind, I've seen them, *I haven't said anyone here is a bad instructor* at all so don't snipe at me.



If you are amending your words and saying SOME bad instructors hide behind a sensei mystique,  I certainly wouldn't take issue with your opinion.  That's certainly not what you were saying before however.



Tez3 said:


> You haven't had a go at one poster who said you must never ever be friends with anyone you train with but chose to have a go at me, interesting. If you have a problem with me PM me instead of getting at me in public.



I imagine because you wrote your opinion in the fashion you did.  I had no problems with what WC_Lun said, which was "I agree that a lot of the seperatedness and formality in _*some* _schools is a direct result of the head instructor's ego and lack of real skill or teaching ability."

And why would I PM you when I am addressing comments you made in public?  You're not necessarily the audience for them.  This is an archived forum where thousands of people read the posts, past, present, and future.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2010)

dancingalone you shouldn't imgaining things into what I wrote and you should stop assuming so much. I can't even comment on something I've seen in a programme without you assuming I'm offering it as proof, you don't do conversation do you, it has to be confrontation all the way. You read what you want to into my posts and there's nothing I'm ever going to say that will get your dislike for me out of your mind so carry on, I'm not refuting anything, repeating anything or adding anything more to what you say. Your mind is made up and stuck in it's rut where I'm concerned, read what you want to into my posts, have fun with them. Be happy with what you think I've written, says more about you than me.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 15, 2010)

Yes, it's all there, in black and white, isn't it?  I would be inclined to fold a losing position, too.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Yes, it's all there, in black and white, isn't it? I would be inclined to fold a losing position, too.


 


On my, I didn't realise this was a competition! 

Losing position? No, just bored of you chasing me across threads with your combatative and personal remarks. This is for discussion and conversation, it's not a point scoring competition nor a spite fest. As I said if you have a problem with me, stop inflicting it on others and PM me. 

You have read into my post what you want, I can't help that but making it personal is against the rules here. You can think because I'm now saying I won't respond to your posts any more that you have 'won', if so I'm happy for you, but I don't intend to break rules and risk boring others with what has turned out on this board your personal sniping campaign against anything I write, I don't expect people to agree with me, they dont even have to like it but they do have to reply without making it a personal attack which everytime, on every subject you do. I wish you goodbye sir.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 15, 2010)

Who is sniping?  You make some very insulting remarks on this thread and I am calling you to the carpet on it.  Don't like it?  Well, don't be insulting.  If I were to reverse the position and make some generalization that people who are buddy, buddy with their students are unprofessional fools, I'd imagine that you would (rightfully) call me to account on it.

As for chasing you, well believe it or not, no, I'm not.  I do read MT a lot and when I see a post I want to respond to, I will.  Your participation certainly isn't needed for me to have interest.

We've had good discussions in the past and I hope we can have them in the future.  But, you were abrasive with your remarks here and I wish you could understand and accept that.  We shall see.  3, 2, 1...


----------



## Master Dan (Oct 15, 2010)

OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHH can we all just get along??


Two comments on respect Tradition is Tradition you eather do it or not? I have always taught my students they are not just bowing to me but as a sign of repect to the person who taught me and know good maners and etiquet universal to all MA shows they are well educated and that they had a good instructor. 

I explain I do not want to get in trouble with my superiors because you have not developed good habits.

A few years ago I sat in on a panel of judges with my GM before he died and a particular student was testing new from out of state probably around 21 years old and he had no manners at all. My GM at the end of the test was giving a review of each person that had tested he mad this guy stand out saying who taught you I think maybe I hate your instructor? 

Then he explained if you do not teach your child when they are young to have respect what will you do in later life beat him up? How about when you are old and feable maybe your kids will beat you up?

I don't know but I am watching you we will see in the future if you get a black belt or not?

I have always taught my students win or loose dose not matter doing your best learning and having good attitude does for Gods sake don't do something that gets me called on the carpet later? When you act up it makes me and all of us look bad.

I did hear a real differnt take from a second generation Korean Master he said Americans are to greedy wanting to much respect from uneducated people. First you must teach them by showing them respect and in time they will give it back. I found this very novel comming from a home grown master but a good point.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2010)

I've recently started JKD in our local leisure/sports centre, it's great, I'm enjoying it and learning a lot but in the same hall, just behind the dividing curtain is a TKD class. The instructors there have the students bowing to them from the floor every time they speak to the student and the student has to kneel on the floor and bow if he wants to speak to or answer the 'sensei'. While waiting to go into training I asked the mother of one of the students about this and was told it was because the instructors were such great people and this was how martial arts was supposed to be done ie how it was done in Korea. These instructors had turned themselves into mini gods. In 20 years of training martial arts it's not the first time I've seen this and not only in martial arts, I've seen it in Scouting too. 
If you are a good instructor you can maintain your composure and discipline with anyone while you are teaching, egos are left at the door including the instructor's, theres no need for extremes of behaviour, ie too buddy buddy or too icy when teaching. Bowing is polite when it's appropriate to do so.
 Being friends outside the dojo with people you would be friends with under any circumstances is easy.

Where this discussion is going awry is that we are talking about two different things. There is a difference with being friends with people you train with if you would be friends with them if you didn't do martial arts and there is wanting to be firends with everyone you teach. It's the latter that doesn't work not the former. You don't start teaching a class with the aim of being everyones mate. You don't start teaching with the aim of being a demi god either though.

There's no insult, poor instructors hide behind 'customs', titles and their postion as 'sensei'. By being aloof and pompous, the intructors discourage the students from getting close enough to see that the instruction is pants. Too many non martial arts people think this is how Asian martial arts are conducted. If these instructors started friendships with their students they would be discovered to be frauds. 

If you see teaching martial arts as a job, you are being paid to do it I expect you don't see your students as much other than that, students with all that entails. Most of the people I know don't get paid and get a great deal out of their martial arts friendships made while training.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 16, 2010)

Humph.  The above is just another restatement of the same extreme viewpoint.

Is it not even slightly possible that an EXCELLENT, INVOLVED teacher could choose to a disciplined and ordered learning environment?  Using formality and encouraging an atmosphere of thinking before asking or doing can be part of this.  So too can be the decision to maintain only a teacher/student relationship, at least at the beginning stages of the martial progression by the pupils.

It's a diverse world.  Different approaches can work for different people who come from all walks of life from a multitude of countries and culture.  I have no problems acknowledging an informal atmosphere where first names only are used and where the teacher is a 'guide' rather than a model to learn from and follow can work well.  In fact some have already weighed in saying so.  Fine.  I don't doubt that is the case and have already remarked as such.

Yet at the same time, I fail to see why the opposite of the above cannot be acknowledged as equally valid.  Nor do I understand why it can't be understood that YES, some EXCELLENT Asian  teachers do indeed choose to be more formal along the lines of the Confucian model.  Asia is an awfully big place and even within the same locales, personal preference is the final word.   And guess what?  We don't even have to be Asian to still have the same VALID opinion.

To deny otherwise is to be obstinate and without reason.


----------



## jthomas1600 (Oct 16, 2010)

The focus of this thread seems to have shifted some from the original topic to the topic of respect/separation/formality _inside _the school. That's fine. Here's another take on it. Some schools make no secret that they are about more than developing a students fighting skills. Our school is one of those schools. Our instructor is open about the fact that he hopes to see students use TKD to grow in all aspects of their lives. At least half of our students are between the ages of 7 and 17. We bow before entering the training area. We have a little opening "ritual" if you will that takes about 30 seconds where we bow to both the Korean and U S flag and our instructor. We say yes sir/ma'am to instructors when in the training area. We bow before sparring. We have a closing "ritual/ceremony" that takes about 30 seconds that includes the kids turning and bowing to their parents to close the class. When you take all this formality and spread it out over an hour class, it really is not all that much bowing. It is a very small part of the program. That being said, I have seen my children grow drastically in their understanding of how and when to show the same kind of respect to adults (at home, school, church etc.) in their every day lives. So our school is succeeding in accomplishing their objective. If another school just wants to focus on the fighting aspect that's cool too.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 16, 2010)

jthomas1600 said:


> The focus of this thread seems to have shifted some from the original topic to the topic of respect/separation/formality _inside _the school. That's fine. Here's another take on it. Some schools make no secret that they are about more than developing a students fighting skills. Our school is one of those schools. Our instructor is open about the fact that he hopes to see students use TKD to grow in all aspects of their lives. At least half of our students are between the ages of 7 and 17. We bow before entering the training area. We have a little opening "ritual" if you will that takes about 30 seconds where we bow to both the Korean and U S flag and our instructor. We say yes sir/ma'am to instructors when in the training area. We bow before sparring. We have a closing "ritual/ceremony" that takes about 30 seconds that includes the kids turning and bowing to their parents to close the class. When you take all this formality and spread it out over an hour class, it really is not all that much bowing. It is a very small part of the program. That being said, I have seen my children grow drastically in their understanding of how and when to show the same kind of respect to adults (at home, school, church etc.) in their every day lives. So our school is succeeding in accomplishing their objective. If another school just wants to focus on the fighting aspect that's cool too.


 

I can see nothing wrong with any of that. I wasn't talking about this type of training place, it sounds a good place to train. It's a misunderstanding to think I believe anything else. 

I've never said I'm against formality or tradition, I'm against those who use it for their own gain not for their students benefit. Surely we are all against that? I dislike intensely the poor instructors who use the bowing and formality to set themselves up as people who are thought to be almost infallible. Training should be disciplined, how can it not be? I have no time for instructors who cannot be humble in their approach to martial arts. It's a privilege to teach not a right.  As I said the bad instructors NEED to have to a separation from the students to save being found out, this hardly equates to those who CHOSE to have a more formal relationship with their students. Good instructors have a choice about how they approach their classes, bad instructors don't. Good instructors don't make children get on their knees to bow before speaking to them or to be spoken to. Good instructors might not want to be friends with their students but they aren't unfriendly to them.

My point is that yes you can be friends with people you teach and train with, others disagree and say no you must never be friends with the people you teach. To me it's a case of being adult about it.


----------



## dortiz (Oct 16, 2010)

I commented on being in very traditional classes. They were under really good high ranked teachers. 
At the same time I have also studied under equally gifted teachers in a much more relaxed environment.
In both scenarios we were friends and so were a bunch of the top students. It was all about style of teaching and what worked for that instructor. It had nothing to do with their ability. I learned a lot in both scenarios as well. So as usual for me the definitive answer to which one is best is.....  YES  : )


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Oct 17, 2010)

The only problem I see with becoming friends with students and socialising with them is that some students may view this as favouratism towards some students and not others which could cause internal politics. I run a business and as a rule I dont socialise with my employees for the same reason, I think its only fair that they all feel like they are on a level playing field. It also can start little "click" groups occuring. When I did karate as a teenager I found this problem because the sensei had his little group of mates who he would spend a lot of time talking to before and after class while other students would get no more than a "good evening" from him and to me this didnt create a great atmosphere.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The only problem I see with becoming friends with students and socialising with them is that some students may view this as favouratism towards some students and not others which could cause internal politics. I run a business and as a rule I dont socialise with my employees for the same reason, I think its only fair that they all feel like they are on a level playing field. It also can start little "click" groups occuring. When I did karate as a teenager I found this problem because the sensei had his little group of mates who he would spend a lot of time talking to before and after class while other students would get no more than a "good evening" from him and to me this didnt create a great atmosphere.


 
A bad instructor. A good one can juggle being friends with teaching fairly. He obviously didn't leave the 'outside' world at the dojo door and I suspect did have favourites. Good instructors are respected as such especially by good friends and being fair must come at the top of the list of qualities that make a good instructor.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Oct 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> A bad instructor. A good one can juggle being friends with teaching fairly. He obviously didn't leave the 'outside' world at the dojo door and I suspect did have favourites. Good instructors are respected as such especially by good friends and being fair must come at the top of the list of qualities that make a good instructor.


I can see where you are coming from but the instructor in question was actually quite a good instructor and was a nice, down to earth guy. He just seemed to have the usual traditional dojo demeanor with 80% of the students and then seemed a lot more open and "social" with his 'mates'. I dont believe he favoured them (from a proffessional standpoint) but it could have been perceived that way especially to newer students who didnt know the guy. I just think he could have been a little more proffessional by either being social with all the students or had the more conservative aproach with all students but should have been consistent with all students.


----------

