# First negative feedback on self-defense seminar for girls



## shesulsa (Oct 3, 2011)

Today I received some of the first negative feedback I've ever gotten on my pro bono self-defense seminars for Girl Scouts. 

I break the sessions up into age groups so I can address questions and talk about things appropriate for just this age.  The coordinator for the event is mom to a female martial arts student (not mine) and prefaces these events by telling the troop leaders about the content and format of my seminars in advance.  We count on the leaders to communicate with the parents about concerns and limitations and to pass these things on. Parental attendance is encouraged.  

Of course, no one can please everyone and I don't seek to do this - I do, however seek to continuously stay abreast of family concerns and safety concerns.  I've never been made aware as to any injury whatsoever in my seminars so some of the feedback was surprising to read. Nevertheless, here it is for others to read.  I would like some feedback, please.

I'm posting the entire exchange with names, email addresses and dates filtered for safety solely for the purpose of transparency:


First feedback email to coordinator:


> *From: *****************
> To: ********************
> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 ******
> Subject: Re: ********** Self Defense Day
> ...



Coordinator's reponse:


> From: ********
> To: ********
> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 ******
> Subject: Re: ******** Self Defense Day
> ...



Next email:

*



			From: **********
To: ***************
Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 *********
Subject: Re: ************* Self Defense Day



********,



Just wanting to clarify that I am speaking for my family, not the entire
troop.  



I appreciate your response and I too feel it is important to teach girls
about safety and that it is never too early to start.  However, I think
there are ways to do this with six and seven year  old girls without such a
negative impact (or injuries).



Perhaps a full disclosure of what will be covered in class (and how it is
covered) would help prepare the girls and parents better for the class and
allow parents to make a more informed decision on whether or not to send
their girl.    



The purpose of my letter was to hopefully help make this class a more
positive and age appropriate experience for these young, impressionable
girls. 



Thank you for your time,

******** *******
		
Click to expand...

*
And another:
[QUOTE*]
Re: ******** Self Defense Day 



*******, our girls participated in this a couple of years ago, as 1st year
Juniors. I know EXACTLY what you are talking about when it come to age
appropriateness. When rape was mentioned it kind of threw me off. I don't
know about every other family, but I did not have to explain sex to my
oldest (now 11 years old) until she was in 4th grade and they were about to
watch "the video" in school. So when we were at the class and rape was
mentioned, I wondered to myself how many younger girls were going to  ask
their leaders/moms what rape was. As a parent, I would not want to be forced
to explain sex to my daughter before she needs to know about it (or before
myself, as her mother, decide it is the right time to talk to her about it).
I had been planning on bringing my now 8 year old to the self defense class,
but am waiting until I have had the birds and bees talk with her.  

I think a full explanation of the class is a great idea!

~********~
mommy to ********, ********, ********, ********, *********[/QUOTE]


Coordinator's email to me:


> From: *************
> To: Georgia Ketchmark
> Cc:
> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2011 5:36 AM
> ...



So in a phone conversation we agreed to delay the class until concerns were met and addressed.  Here is the general letter I asked her to send out to the entire group. It doesn't answer every question, but I stand up for my position here. 



> *From:* G L Ketchmark <>
> *Date:* October 3, 2011 9:58:09 AM PDT
> *To:* *****************
> *Subject:* *Re: Self defense day*
> ...




And here is what the two troop co-leaders feel about the situation.  


> *From:* **********************************
> *To:* ***********************************
> *Sent:* Monday, October 3, 2011 11:19 AM
> *Subject:* Fwd: Self defense day
> ...



I want to be clear - I was never made aware of any injuries whatsoever other than some over-exhuberance on the part of some girls which was thwarted immediately, of course.  There are the occasional tears which usually draws a little extra attention, comfort and a little coaching to the attending adults.

Tear it up, folks.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 3, 2011)

Doesn't look like there is much to 'tear up' there Georgia.  

Clearly as I don't know any of the people involved I can't really say for certain but this has the sound of a protective parent being a bit surprised at the course content for the age group because they are perhaps judging it from their own early years.

About the only practical thing I can suggest to make things clearer for the parents is to let them know before hand that the subject matter, of necessity, will cover such territory as potential sexual assault.


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## Carol (Oct 3, 2011)

I think you handled a delicate situation quite well, Georgia. 

Suke mentioned the content.  Is there more that can be done (ie: greater supervision, more training of the supervisors, more supervisors, etc) so the injury issue is less likely to reoccur?


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## MA-Caver (Oct 3, 2011)

Sounds more like to me some folks are upset at the reality that COULD happen to their precious little angels. Denial is a wunnerful thing, if you're a crocodile in Egypt. Yet at the same time it is a scary topic for young ones. Perhaps a different wording (euphemism) on the word "rape" so that tender ears (of the parents) aren't offended. Simply saying "attacked with serious intent to harm you". Yet one would imagine that most kids would have to be concerned with bullies (of either sex) physically attacking them. The reality that there's some perv cruising around their neighborhood waiting for that little slip of the guard to snatch up a potential victim and drive off is still a sad possibility. 

Everyone knows it could happen but don't really want to talk about it (evident that we are all still inherently superstitious) because it could happen to them. 

As for getting negative feedback, well, look at it as an opportunity to fine tune your class.


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## Monroe (Oct 3, 2011)

I don't think you've done something wrong but there's always room for improvement.


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## clfsean (Oct 3, 2011)

I wouldn't change a thing. In fact I think you've gone as far as you need to in explaining things. 

Times are now way different than when we were kids. Kids, unfortunately... need to be aware of these things earlier on. Sometimes the frank langauge & nature of the topic is a bit much for parents to deal with and accept, but the truth is the truth. It's like a 2x4. When applied appropriately, it leaves a mark. To those parents I hope they withdraw their head from the sand & prep their kids for what could happen out in the world away from their safetynet called home. I'm not talking about "the mean streets". I'm talking about at school or the playground or church or camp or... etc...


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## Cyriacus (Oct 3, 2011)

My Opinion:

Pedophilia is not exactly Rare.
Molestation is not exactly Rare.
Children are in a Society where they could be Harmed in more ways than Physically.
It can be by Other Children.
It can be by Adults.
It can be at School.
It could be when they move out of sight for one mere second in the Mall.
And just pretending that possibility doesnt exist is Ignorant.

If more Children were Blatantly Informed of, and Prepared for, Valid Threats against their Wellbeing, less Parents would be left in a Fetal Position wondering why this has happened to THEIR Child.




*Clears Throat*
Otherwise, you handled it well.
Better than you needed to.
You acted more than was even necessary, with the Interests of these Families at Heart.
Salutations.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 3, 2011)

Shesulsa, I can't think of anything I would have done differently. Keep it up.


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## shesulsa (Oct 3, 2011)

Carol said:


> I think you handled a delicate situation quite well, Georgia.
> 
> Suke mentioned the content.  Is there more that can be done (ie: greater supervision, more training of the supervisors, more supervisors, etc) so the injury issue is less likely to reoccur?



Yes, in fact, I'll be calling the leaders to come out and participate - that will help if I don't have enough assistants - and using fewer techniques. I'm really confounded, though, as to which techniques hurt the girls. I'm kind of wondering if the girls just said, "it hurt" when it was what you and I wouldn't think of as serious pain.  This still needs addressing, of course, but it's the very first time I've *ever* heard of physical injury at my seminars.



Sukerkin said:


> Doesn't look like there is much to 'tear up' there Georgia.
> 
> Clearly as I don't know any of the people involved I can't really say for certain but this has the sound of a protective parent being a bit surprised at the course content for the age group because they are perhaps judging it from their own early years.
> 
> About the only practical thing I can suggest to make things clearer for the parents is to let them know before hand that the subject matter, of necessity, will cover such territory as potential sexual assault.



I have relied on the coordinating leader to convey this to the leaders and what I'm sure is happening is that those leaders are not conveying this to their parents.  So I will be assembling some material to distribute to the leaders and parents in the future.  

Gosh it almost makes one wonder what the hell these people think their daughters would actually be learning at a *self* *defense* *seminar* ya know?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 4, 2011)

First: everyone has had an upbringing unique to them. They assume the values in their family were correct and taught at an appropriate age, or not. Your values and theirs may be worlds apart. I think you are on the right track, making sure leaders know what you are doing and why. Also sending a letter to the children's parents. As parents, whether or not we agree with them, they are the arbiters of what and when their children should learn certain things. They need to know what you are teaching, what you are going to be discussing, and any topics you expect to be brought up and answered by you.

I understand your concern. I share it. But I wonder if it would be more appropriate to simple teach them defenses for certain types of attack/touching. Never minding any motives an adult or fellow student might have. Also instilling in them that avoiding confrontation is better than defending oneself. I'm not suggesting that, since I don't know where you live or what the majority of parents and schools consider proper behavior, but just throwing it out there for consideration.

As to hurt, who knows? Kids can be funny in how they express themselves. My wife started out asking my children if their stomach hurt, when the correct question would have been do you feel sick to your stomach. English is not my wife's native language. I don't know that would explain what you have learned about some girls have told their parents about you have taught, but perhaps it is worth exploring. It could also be a reaction on some of them's part to fear of what they are learning the self defense for. Rather than say they are afraid, they might be saying it hurt. That hoping they don't have to take that class again. As I said, kids can be funny in how they think and express themselves some times.

Good luck with what you are doing. Your motives are good. I don't think your application is wrong per se, but it would seem some fine tuning in advising parents of what your are teaching and why would help. Perhaps more importantly, explaining to parents how their daughters could react, based on feedback and your observations, would be helpful for them in deciding to send their daughters or opt out. Or prepare their daughters before the class.


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## harlan (Oct 4, 2011)

My input, as an old woman, studying martial arts, that has also taken self-defense workshops taught through the local police depts: the initial communication for sign up is critical for reaching people ready for the message. If the course is going to address violence through the 'rape lens', then that needs to be clearly communicated so parents can decide if their kids are able to handle the content.


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## OKenpo942 (Oct 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> My Opinion:
> 
> Pedophilia is not exactly Rare.
> Molestation is not exactly Rare.
> ...



I totally agree, but I think a better word than "ignorant" when pretending it doesn't exist would be "negligent". Parents who pretend that these harms do not exist or fail to face these realities and prepare their children for them are neglecting their childs safety. Just my humble opinion, but I think kids need to know about the wolves that are out there and what they are capable of. 

Georgia, I applaud you for dealing with issues that many parents are either uncomfortable with or just flat out ignore. God bless you and the occassioal negative feedback that allows you to improve your program and motivate you to keep doing what you are doing because so many think that it is inappropriate or just don't care. Thank you.

James


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## elder999 (Oct 4, 2011)

Just for some perspective: the summer I turned 12 was the first time I saw a man being sodomized depicted in the movies. The movie was _Deliverance,_ and, while I had read of  such things, and was aware of them, the movie was a bit of a shock-it really brought home just how horrible such an experience would be. At the end of the day, though, the "fancy takedown bow" was what really left a lasting impression-I just had to have one! 

Kids are a lot more resilient and capable than their parents can usually imagine. You did fine-it's an ugly world out there, just as it was nearly 40 years ago that day at the movies-and kids _need_ to know that.

As for the injuries, it's possible that the common confusion between the difference between "injury" and _pain_ is what has taken place here-if the kids were dealing out a little pain to each other, some parents might get a little twisted over that.A statement on content should take care of that-though, having had other issues before, you might want to make sure that someone doesn't have an axe to grind.......of course, that advice comes from a raving paranoiac, so your mileage may vary. :lfao:


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2011)

Several posts have already covered the strong possibility that this is a reaction by parents uncomfortable with the reality that violence does exist in the world, and that their children are potential victims.  Rape and other related concepts are things they will be exposed to.  And earlier than their parents may wish.  As shown -- it can be addressed without "crossing the line" into inappropriately detailed explanations.  Sadly, they do *need *to be covered.

Regarding injuries...  First -- it may well be a result of the same protective parents planting the idea in the kid's head, especially if they used unfamiliar muscles or did get some mild hurts, like a little "rug burn" from a grab.  I'm sure you've had the experience of a child being perfectly fine after a fall until a parent showed concern!  There's very little you can do about that -- but what you can leads into my second thought.  Especially when I teach outside my normal students (who know and expect {and sometimes brag about!} some minor bumps and bruises in training), I ask two questions:  Is anyone hurt?  Is anyone injured?  And I explain the difference -- hurt is discomfort, minor stuff that'll be fine in a day or an hour.  Injured needs a doc to at least check it out.

Especially for your public service self defense classes, I encourage you to start asking those questions, if you don't already.  Bluntly -- it'll cover your *** a bit, so that when someone's parent complains, you can honestly say you gave them a chance and asked them to tell you about injuries, and none were reported.


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## WC_lun (Oct 4, 2011)

You handled this well.  It really does sound as if this woman wants to eat her cake and have it too.  She wants her child to be as prepared as posible for a terrible situation, but don't talk about it or have any realism when it comes to self-defense.  Her expectations are off by a mile.


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## shesulsa (Oct 4, 2011)

Thanks for all the support and feedback, folks.

The first bit of investigation reveals some girls didn't like having their hair pulled. The same girls felt upset and confused because - AND THIS PART IS IMPORTANT, FOLKS - 

... THESE GIRLS ARE CONTINUOUSLY ENCOURAGED AND TOLD TO BE NICE, TO BE GOOD, TO BE POLITE ... AND THEY FOUND THIS EXPERIENCE TO BE INCONGRUANT WITH ALL THEY'VE LEARNED ABOUT BEING GOOD PEOPLE.  :angel:  :shooter:

I wondered if we were going to uncover this little gem.

Ima go lift weights with my ladies now. Y'all have some java and ah ... _discuss_.  *chortle*


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## KELLYG (Oct 4, 2011)

I think that being a parent, especially in this day and time, it would be a great advantage to instruct their girls on basic self defence.  They should be instructed as to who a stranger is and what types of touching are appropriate or inappropriate.  Who to tell if someting 'bad' happened, and also give them the freedom to ask questions.   I think that a moment of enbarssment (from the parents) at telling the young ones about the birds and the bees at a younger age, is so much easier to deal with than having to explain what happened to them, if such an incident occured.


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## harlan (Oct 4, 2011)

While the subject matter can be embarrassing, it should be age appropriate. R.A.D. offers classes for different ages/genders. As an old woman, the ladies and I found the whole 'rape lens' humorous. We were seasoned veterans of life, so to speak. But the mothers there with their 15 year old daughters experienced it differently. And I could not imagine that the concepts, nor the physical techniques, could be taught to responsibly to children younger than that. The test we went through was actually...scary. Affected us all deeply. Not for children. 

It must be age appropriate.


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## shesulsa (Oct 4, 2011)

I think it's poignant to consider that girls are taught to be *nice* and that as a side effect they perceived the act of protecting themselves to be *not nice* and *upsetting.*


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2011)

[yt]nTh5JzRziHE[/yt]


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## Sukerkin (Oct 4, 2011)

It's an aside to the OP but lordy do I like that film.  It's even more poignant now that Mr. Swayze is no longer with us.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 4, 2011)

Georgia,

1) You got feedback
2) You reviewed the feedback
3) You replied to the feedback
4) You asked for input from others before it went out
5) You asked others in the field to provide additional feedback. 

I am sorry, but that seems to be professional attitidue there. What were you thinking? 

When I was in the second grade everyone I knew, knew what sex was. I did not understand it, but I knew what it required of the male parts and the female parts. I turned 6 in the second grade. 

Most of the local girls my age and older to a year younger were the ones wanting to play doctor and explore. I had no clue. Yet, it did not make me afraid of women or think all women would go play doctor with me if I asked. 


I know this will come up so I will mention it now for those to quote and criticise. I do not have kids and to most people they reply that I should nto give an opinion on kids until I have my own. To that I say, then they should not give an opinion on politics until they run for office or on a piece of new technology until they have a degree in science or math. 

I have nieces and nephews and I have taught them and cared for them. One adopted niece ( Friend's kid ) had her mother leave the state. I worreid about her. I talked to her. I helped her out the best I could, as did her dad. One day while talking to one of her friends as a teenager she stated, "Talk to my mother? Why ?!? My Uncle Rich has been more of a mother to me than my own mother." I was glad I was able to help her and I felt proud at that moment that I was able to do so in her time of need. 


That being said, some people hide their kids form the world and that is ok. It is their right to raise their children that way. They just need to make sure they review and ask questions BEFORE their child does anything, versus ASSUME that everyone else will know their wishes and respond as they would like. 

I agree with what you said about the "being Nice" and now being told not to be nice. To that I point to one of my niece's, as she is a nice young woman now. She also learned how to hit from me and her dad for self defense. One day a boy grabbed her butt in high school (9th grade) in the hallway, she turned and punched him in the solar plexes and the boy went down. No one at the school bothered her after that and she choose who could touch her body and who could not. Once again I thought of that as a win. 

Oh yes, I know that kids are told not to repsond to violence with violence. That fighting is not allowed. Yet I wonder, if that really is the best course. Yes run away first. Yes tell an adult. But what happens when the child cannot? Sometimes a little resistance goes along way in deterring others as it attracks attention. 

As I stated above, you acted professionally. You should continue to do so. If they choose per age group not to have it that is fine. The organization can choose that (* not that they have said they would , just a comment *). You cannot please everyone all the time. Impossible task. You realize that. So it will not cause you distress. 

I agree with the follow up on the injury issue. If you are not told you cannot do anything, but crying is not a physical injury no matter what the parent may think. It might be an emotional reaction to the situation which as you stated, you try to coach through with their adult support team. 


The only thing you could do that I could suggest is to make sure all the parents are either present so they can remove their child, or for the parents to take the class first. But we all know niether of those two options will work in the real world for implementation. 

Keep asking and looking for improvements and trying to explain to people. It is all you can do. 

Thanks


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## Brian King (Oct 5, 2011)

When getting feedback from parents during or after these type of courses it is essential in my opinion to keep in mind the perspective that the parents are viewing the training thru the lens of their own experiences and desires. As stated multiple times above thread, they wish to protect their little ones from being exposed too early to material that they find object with. The statistics of assaults against children and women are high (I admit to not knowing the latest but am making the assumption that they are still high) a instructor should keep in mind that a percentage of the parents will have direct knowledge of assaults, battery, and rape. This maybe a direct and life changing memory on their part or some repressed negativity of some non-remembered event. The goal of these type of classes should be to give children a positive means of protection and education while at the same time giving the parents who may have themselves been victimized a healthy means of coming to terms with their past and with their childs and their present situations. How this is best done depends on the instructors education, sensitivity and awareness.Negatively judging the parent or their motives for wanting to protect their child is not effective, especially without the benefit of really understanding without assumptions that motivation. Far better I think to look the feedback with grace, gratefully accept it as honest feedback, take it into account in regards to future classes and in future contact with the giver and their family, then move on. Give it the weight of thought and consideration it deserves, make any adjustments that might be needed or not, then drive on with the lessons. When interacting with the parents always consider that this work might be very intimate to a destructive time of their past. Instructors should work (before, during and after the workshops) with a attitude of gratitude that the parents and kids are entrusting this type of training and exploration to them, not with the attitude of a martyr or savior postalizing truths to save the participants. 


Nice/niceness


Women approach conflict differently than men. They learn at a young age to compromise and how to get along. It is a well know tactic for rapist to show a woman a weapon and demand compliance and get it. Teaching youngsters how to stand up for themselves is important. Teaching them how to resolve conflicts is a serious long term study and worth every minute of exploration. There are many different approaches to accomplish this. Shesulsa, not many recognize that this constant reminder to be nice, the tying of that niceness into the self-esteem of little girls can lead to problems down the road. You do recognize it shesulsa. What are some of the methods you are using to alter this situation/state?


Good luck with your classes and the worthy battle
Regards
Brian King


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## stickarts (Oct 5, 2011)

I agree with the recommendation of just letting the parents know the course content upfront. Feedback can sometimes be difficult but it says a lot about you that you do listen to it and that you care!! Keep up the good work.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 5, 2011)

The fact that you are willing to meet with the parents and leaders of the group before you hold the next session shows that you want to do the correct thing.
There have been some good ideas expressed in the posts that followed your OP, I know you will examin what you teach and the way things are expressed. 
It seems to me (just on reading your post) that you realise what is happening in the community and are trying to prepare the children for such events. If a parent can not understand this then maybe they need to reexamin the world they live in. Teaching a child to be nice and not hurt anyone is a positive thing but in the reaal world we sometimes must hurt someone to protect oursleves.
I wish you luck on this and please let us know what comes out of your meeting and how the next seminar goes


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## Thesemindz (Oct 5, 2011)

There's only so much you can do. I had a young woman ask me to teach her some ground fighting once, and we began to cover techniques, but then she only wanted to know how to defend against someone between her legs, so I started covering guard defense, then she wanted to know what to do if that person had her hands pinned, so I started covering grab escapes, but she got upset because I was teaching her to attack the other person. This whole time I thought we were talking about karate because she hadn't given me any indication otherwise. But then she said she wanted to be able to defend against someone between her legs pinning her arms down but do it _without hurting the other person._ At that point we started having a different conversation and it became clear pretty quickly that she was being date raped, regularly. I tried to talk to her about how to deal with that, both from a technical karate standpoint and a more expansive personal protection standpoint, but she kept going back to not wanting to hurt her attacker. She wanted to get out of the situation without doing anything to upset the guy pinning her down and raping her. Eventually, I told her that she had to make a decision whether or not to defend herself and that nothing I could give her would do any good until she did. It was hard for me, because the first lesson I teach any of my students is that they are unique and wonderful and worth defending and that they have to accept that for themselves in order to be able to use the material I teach.

In that case, there was nothing I could do. She wasn't willing to defend herself. She wanted to be "nice." To someone who was *raping her*. You can't do anything about that. You can try to educate them and explain to them the reality of their situation, but ultimately it's up to *them* to do something about it. It seems like in your case, a few parents don't want to accept reality. That's a shame. But stack that up against all the other parents and kids you've helped and you'll see the value of what you do. Maybe you lost that parent, but how many others saw the instruction and learned the lessons and discussed it with their children and were better protected and prepared as a result? That's the gain. And even the ones who weren't ready for it are better off than if they hadn't been exposed to those "scary" truths and practices.

Some people want to live in a fantasy world where bad things never happen and there are no wolves. But closing your eyes and sticking your fingers in your ears just marks you as an easy target for the predators of the world. Unfortunately, by not accepting the situation that exists, they make themselves that much more likely to fall prey to it.

You're doing a good thing. Most people will see that and appreciate it. Don't let the few who don't discourage you. Think about how many other young girls and parents will benefit from your seminars, or won't if you quit doing them because a few wilting violets got their feelings hurt. It seems like you're handling this in an intelligent, professional manner. More communication is always a good thing, and if you can address these kinds of concerns before they arise that's one less headache for you. Keep doing what you're doing. You're on the right track.


-Rob


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## aedrasteia (Oct 5, 2011)

Brian

can't seem to give you positive rep for this terrific post, so I'm saying it here. 

Yes. Every point agreed. Including positive comments to Georgia.

I'm hoping that all MT participants who currently teach or even think about doing SD4W/girls read this entire thread and gives thoughtful attention to your comments. I'll post more on this thread but Brian, this cut right to the heart of this issue.

I *never* teach girls of any age (18 and under) without extensive, direct contact with parents/important caregivers BEFORE the class. And the deep reality of 'niceness' and socialization/training of girls and women is the *core of SD4W.*

So many of those adults, most often women (but including some men) carry the horrific, unacknowledged baggage of bad experiences. I assume nothing and never violate their privacy but I recognize that reality and undertake the responsibility to treat them with respect and care, not contempt and dismissal. The teacher's job is to receive them with welcome and broad acceptance and behave in a way that makes it easiest for them to share whatever they can. 

Most often, 30-40% of participants in adult SD4W classes bring direct experience with them.  Parents/caregivers of my younger students do too, sometimes more because they reach out, sometimes confused or unprepared for the emotional/psychological distress, for anything that will protect their children. As they were not protected or helped. 

What so many here read as 'denial' and treat dismissively and contemptuously is usually nothing of the sort. Denial is a 'self protective' tool, sometimes/often the only one isolated people have. And still, amazingly, they reach out to a safety or SD class, in spite of their experiences and memories. They are overwhelmed, generally, when these issues arise, but they hide the distress, in part because so many of us make it even harder for them.  

I believe it is part of my job to be prepared, as completely as I can, for whatever those children and parents bring with them, to meet them where they are, not where I think they should be.  

Surprise, disapproval, contempt, ridicule, dismissal not only have *no* place in my perspective or in my actions, those responses actively work against my primary goal: to become effective partners with adults caring for kids. Sometimes this may be challenging, but thats what we are supposed to be doing right? the hard stuff?   That requires knowledge and understanding of real threats/abuse of children. And the effects on the adults they become. And developing the actual teaching/communication skills to make that knowledge work positively. These are much greater challenges for teachers than blowing them off or endlessly sharpening physical techniques. Georgia and Brian are good examples of the path.

thanks Brian. Keep reminding us all of the reality.​

​


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## shesulsa (Oct 5, 2011)

The woman who wrote this:



> From: *****************
> To: ********************
> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 ******
> Subject: Re: ********** Self Defense Day
> ...



... and this ...



> *From: **********
> To: ***************
> Sent: Sunday, October 2, 2011 *********
> Subject: Re: ************* Self Defense Day
> ...



... was not actually in attendance at the seminar - her husband was.  I am currently discussing the matter with him via email and will provide that conversation upon its conclusion.

I've not yet connected with the other lady.

What I'm taking from this so far is that teaching self-defense to girls needs to involve discussion with their parents and leaders as well.  It seems like a no-brainer but it isn't something I have pro-actively sought to do *myself*.  

As to the "injury" or implied lack of supervision, I will likely also include a disclaimer in the future (a regular practice of a few instructors I know, just never considered for a Girl Scout venue.

Brian:  What am I doing to change the stigma? THIS is what I'm doing. ;-)

***EDITED TO ADD***

Actually, I will go ahead and post the conversation thus far now.


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## shesulsa (Oct 5, 2011)

Email exchange with father:



> *To:* ****************************
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 5, 2011 9:25 AM
> *Subject:* Follow-up on self-defense class
> 
> ...



me:



> *To: *******************
> *Sent: *Wednesday, October 5, 2011 9:46:23 AM
> *Subject: *Re: Follow-up on self-defense class
> 
> ...



His reply:



> Dear Georgia,
> 
> Thank you for writing me back.  I will try to answer all of your  questions.  The class that I'm referring too was held in the Fort  Vancouver area, the class was in a basement of one of the buildings.  I  think providing a very elementary explanation to the girls as to why  they are there is appropriate enough to get their attention.  That this  is a class developed to assist them with making themselves aware of  their environment and that you will be teaching them steps to protect  themselves if their environment becomes unsafe or someone within their  environment posses a threat or they feel uncomfortable about someone  being in their "personal bubble."  I know it's not that simple, but some  middle ground might be appropriate.  In the case of one of the girls  you were actually demonstrating with the girl and I think more caught  her by surprise then actually harming her.  In the other situation two  of the girls were practicing blocking techniques, with their legs,  and  one of the girls kicked the other a little bit too hard.  A lot of girls  were present at the class and maybe limiting the course would be  helpful. This would help with management of the course and would assist  with you being able to monitor the class more effectively.
> 
> ...




And my most recent reply to him:



> Dear ********:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 5, 2011)

"G",

You mentioned the kids may not know they are being hard. This is very true. 

I was at a seminar that I and another taught at. An ex-girlfriend and still friend of mine asked if she could stop by. The host supported this. 

During the knife drills that the other instructor was doing, I used my aluminum knives. Most others used rubber softer knives so when they stabbed into the chest it bent. I used control while working with her. She came at me with intent. The instructor and others were looking at me like Ihad given my ex and knife to stab me with and she meant to do it. 

After she had it down I then explained that for normal training the impact was too much, but that it did her some good to it at that level. 

She was a grown woman in her early 30's and had gone through Naval boot camp. She did not understand and was shocked that she had hurt me. I explained that if I was in "REAL" danger I would have stopped it, but a short term of a few bruises to get he to have it down was an option I was wiling to take for myself. 

So expecting kids to have control and to know what 25% and 50% strike levels would be a difficult task out of the gate. 

Could you have them all demonstrate on a kick pad/bag or strike pads? Could you use leg/shin protectors to demonstrate on yourself to get them to get the right level of control?  Of course you alone would be very difficult to accomplish this so other adults assisting would be great. 

Thanks


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## jks9199 (Oct 5, 2011)

Admitting to having been a victim is a powerful thing -- both for you and for your audience.  You show them directly that bad things can happen, and that you can survive them and come through and be strong.  At the same time, it has to be presented carefully, and, as a teacher, you have to make sure that relating your experience (even obliquely) is serving the class, and not your own needs.  That's just something to think about...

Personally, I've learned NOT to demonstrate on students in a setting like that except as a last resort or for a particular purpose.  It's one thing in a regular class to demonstrate on a student; they know and expect it.  I know I generally use the more experienced students for demonstrations, and will generally bring a student when I teach a seminar or class like yours so that I have extra eyes as well as a reliable demonstratee.  In fact, I'm often the demonstratee for my teaching partner, because I'm about twice her size, and it proves that the techniques can work against someone bigger!


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## shesulsa (Oct 10, 2011)

The most recent email from father and my final reply:



> Dear Georgia,
> 
> Since the course was such a  long-time ago I can't recall the exact wording that you used, I should  have addressed my concerns in a more timely fashion and that was my  mistake.  I have worked in the residential sector for at-risk and  high-risk children for over 10 years and for the past 6 years I have  been a high school counselor so I'm familiar with abuse cycles,  especially in working with the victims.  I think encouraging  pre-education and allowing parents an opportunity to receive information  about the course ahead of time and about the content of the course  would be helpful.  Letting parents know that words such as  "raped", "sexually assaulted", "abused" are a part of the content of the  course and the reasons why they are a part of the course.  Also that  parental involvement might be a part of the course so dress accordingly  as parents may be asked to be participants, i.e. the attacker.  Just a  thought. Also that it is important for parents to follow-up with their  child after the course to answer any questions they may have regarding  the content of the course.  Maybe having sometime at the end of the  course for the children and their parents to ask questions?  I know time  is limited, but I feel that the education piece is critical.  In  addition, possibly providing a hand-out at the end of the course  providing the child-abuse hotline # and just some general information on  abuse.
> 
> ...




I don't know what this guy was smoking when he brought his daughter, but the girls get handouts with phone numbers for For A Child, and Safe Choice, etcetera as well as my own personal information on them AND I always have a Q&A session at the end of class.

I slept on this for three days before I sent this reply:



> *******,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I really don't think there was any other way to appease this man and his family.

I just sent my first email to the other lady who agreed with his wife.  For the record, I've received emails and phone calls backing me 100% and encouraging me forward from the GS community.  

Nevertheless, it's important to look at feedback like this as an opportunity to improve.  Thanks to everyone here involved in the discussion for your support, your feedback, your honesty ... I truly appreciate it.

Thanks!


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## jks9199 (Oct 10, 2011)

One thing that I've learned is that handouts given to kids don't always (maybe hardly ever) make it to parents -- even if given to the kids directly in front of the parents.  And if they're just a stack with directions to pick one up as you go out... they seldom even get picked up.  And that's with adults or kids.

I don't recommend bringing parents onto the floor as demonstration partners except with great care.  First -- parents should stay authority figures, and getting beat up doesn't help!  Second -- you don't know what they bring to the floor.  A guy doing a demo once insisted on calling one of my instructors down to show how the guy could escape from holds from "even really big, strong guys."  Except he couldn't break my instructor's hold.  Kind crushes the credibility, no?  Or they do something wrong, fall badly, and get hurt.  I strongly encourage using a selected student or fellow instructor for most demos in a seminar set-up like this.  Third -- if you've got a participant (adult or child) who has been abused, you could find yourself dealing with a emotional time-bomb going off in your class.


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## aedrasteia (Oct 10, 2011)

Shesulsa

this is a terrific thread.. thanks so much and much respect to you for starting and continuing to share this with us all. 
Your explanations have been clear and valuable.

Regarding the father you quoted in #32, how old is the daughter?   

How old are the girls of the other parents who had some concerns?

what are the maturity/age groupings you generally use?

What books/web-sites do you recommend/share with parents?

I'm not sure I understand:   _"I really don't think there was any other way to appease this man and his family"_.  
thanks


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 10, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I really don't think there was any other way to appease this man and his family.



See Above


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## Cyriacus (Oct 10, 2011)

OKenpo942 said:


> I totally agree, but I think a better word than "ignorant" when pretending it doesn't exist would be "negligent". Parents who pretend that these harms do not exist or fail to face these realities and prepare their children for them are neglecting their childs safety. Just my humble opinion, but I think kids need to know about the wolves that are out there and what they are capable of.
> 
> Georgia, I applaud you for dealing with issues that many parents are either uncomfortable with or just flat out ignore. God bless you and the occassioal negative feedback that allows you to improve your program and motivate you to keep doing what you are doing because so many think that it is inappropriate or just don't care. Thank you.
> 
> James


Theyre completely Ignoring the Threat, arent they? They know that Molestation and Pedophilia exist. And more. They just choose to completely Ignore it.
Negligent is also Accurate. Both Terms are pretty interchangeable here.


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## Benevolentbob (Oct 11, 2011)

From what I read there it doesn't seem like you did anything wrong. I think you're just seeing our modern culture for what it is. To be totally blunt, most of those parents probably don't have have a clue what real combat (on the street or otherwise) is like and live in a dream world where breaking cheap wood in Tae Kwon Do means their kids are safe. In my experience most people say they would like to learn self-defense but are not truly prepared for it and end up in a feel good role-playing class. This is why mcdojos are so successful in the United States, they believe they're learning self defense but they don't have to face bitter reality or put in the effort required to do so. Words like "rape" may scare some people, but if you're taking a class to defend yourself you should be prepared to face these situations. In fact, if you're in a self-defense class and they're not throwing out situations like getting mugged or raped then you should probably start looking around at other schools.


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## shesulsa (Oct 11, 2011)

aedrasteia said:


> Shesulsa
> 
> this is a terrific thread.. thanks so much and much respect to you for starting and continuing to share this with us all.
> Your explanations have been clear and valuable.



Thank you so much!



> Regarding the father you quoted in #32, how old is the daughter?



He says the group in question was 6 and 7 year olds.



> How old are the girls of the other parents who had some concerns?



Not sure - hoping for clarity soon.



> what are the maturity/age groupings you generally use?



The age groups fall generally in line with the program age level with Girl Scouts with some exceptions:

Daisies (last year of preschool and kindergarten, so 4-5 years)
Brownies (Grades 1-3, so 6-8 years)
Juniors (Grades 4-6, so 9-11 years) - This group I generally tend to split off with the 9 and 10 year olds separate from the 11 year olds.
Cadettes (Grades 7-9, so 12-14 years) - I tack the 11 year olds in with this group.
Seniors (Grades 10-12, so 15-18 years) - I *sometimes* split the 15 year olds off and include them in the next group down.

The leaders are encouraged to speak with the parents and girls who are more mature and near a cusp *might* be included with an older group and vice-versa.



> What books/web-sites do you recommend/share with parents?



I have mentioned (though not in print) childrennow.org for parents and for all girls the local numbers for (I don't call it this) the sexual assault and child abuse hotlines. I tell the leaders about GirlThrive.com - this is a blog site about girls who have been victims and who are seeking healing.



> I'm not sure I understand:   _"I really don't think there was any other way to appease this man and his family"_.
> thanks



I read the father's messages to have the deeper intention of a father upset about the whole experience, not necessarily for what it was but for the fact that his girl had to experience it at all.  He was disconcerted and had told his wife I used some pretty heavy words for young girls, but then backed off when I asked for specifics, then again quoted words he didn't think I should use with young girls.  I don't think he wanted to be reassured, I don't think he really wanted explanation, I don't think he really even cared to discuss the matter in detail - he just wanted me to verbally take responsibility for the discomfort of his little girl.  So I did.  That girl will likely never have to see me again and if she has to remember the experience as something negative, I'd rather she assign that negativity to me than her parents or leaders - people she sees often.  If I can leave no other impression upon her, that would be better than viewing her parents or leaders as the enemy.


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## shesulsa (Oct 11, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Theyre completely Ignoring the Threat, arent they? They know that Molestation and Pedophilia exist. And more. They just choose to completely Ignore it.
> Negligent is also Accurate. Both Terms are pretty interchangeable here.



What they are trying to do is gradually expose their children at what they deem to be age-appropriate behavior. The problem is that this is virtually impossible.  The child who hasn't already heard a lot about sex and/or experienced some kind of bullying or power-over situation by 5th grade (when they show kids The Movie) is far more rare than ever before.  They are trying to do right by their kids.  Parents kinda forget that when you teach kids about sex and AIDS, you have to teach them about lots of other icky things like gonorrhea, syphilis, chlamydia, etcetera.  

Assault and abuse are horrific experiences. Why would we WANT to expose our children to them?  You and I know we *HAVE* to and we WANT to so they have a better shot at staying safe.  These parents don't yet understand the need.

So ... we must educate them.


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Today I received some of the first negative feedback I've ever gotten on my pro bono self-defense seminars for Girl Scouts.
> 
> I break the sessions up into age groups so I can address questions and talk about things appropriate for just this age.  The coordinator for the event is mom to a female martial arts student (not mine) and prefaces these events by telling the troop leaders about the content and format of my seminars in advance.  We count on the leaders to communicate with the parents about concerns and limitations and to pass these things on. Parental attendance is encouraged.
> 
> ...




Coordinator's email to me:


So in a phone conversation we agreed to delay the class until concerns were met and addressed.  Here is the general letter I asked her to send out to the entire group. It doesn't answer every question, but I stand up for my position here. 




And here is what the two troop co-leaders feel about the situation.  


I want to be clear - I was never made aware of any injuries whatsoever other than some over-exhuberance on the part of some girls which was thwarted immediately, of course.  There are the occasional tears which usually draws a little extra attention, comfort and a little coaching to the attending adults.

Tear it up, folks.[/QUOTE]

People like this, IMO, have their head up their ***.  Perhaps the martial arts or a SD is too difficult for the glass children.  Perhaps a knitting class, in fantasy land is better suited.  IMO, I dont see anything wrong with what you did Geo.  I mean, seems like nowadays, people are more interested in sugar coating stuff, and downplaying the seriousness of things, instead of telling it like it is.  Oh well...


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## shesulsa (Oct 11, 2011)

I'm thinking - the Q&A session or the roundup at the end of the session is usually held in the middle of the gym and sometimes those little girl voices that meekly ask, "is rape when a boy puts his weenie in your butt?" might not carry back to the adults, so they hear my booming voice and assume I'm the one bringing it up.

I'm thinking they want someone to teach their kids how to use voices and say NO a million times but never have to experience any pain whatsoever.

I think people don't understand the difference between pain and injury.

I think people think they are doing the right thing by their kids by not exposing them to undesirable content too early.  And truthfully, as a parent now, that IS a fine line to walk, folks.  I erred on the side of giving my kids TOO much information, right up to the EW factor and then backed off.  They sometimes still roll their eyes at me.  At least my son has thanked me (of his own volition) for being honest and truthful about this kind of thing.


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## aedrasteia (Oct 11, 2011)

G
*sometimes those little girl voices that meekly ask, "is rape when a boy puts his weenie in your butt?" might not carry back to the adults, so they hear my booming voice and assume I'm the one bringing it up*.

smiling - _so familiar_!!  

more later, but a quick add: 4 critical things in sessions: 

# I won't locate is a big open space for just that reason. If I have to use a gym, we mark off a space that is 'just for us' and use streamers, tape, equipment etc. to show *our space.*  I scope out the space in advance, make my plan and then get the girls/women to make suggestions and put it in place. Its a huge hit, gets everybody involved and working together right away, breaks the 'ice' and isolation... and its the early set-up for the conversation about boundaries and why it is OK and a good thing to have them.  Yep - its called 'setting a boundary'  and i do it with all classes, age groups. It takes something abstract and makes it very concrete, and I use the lead-in during the entire class. And we do it right at the start.

*# those little girl voices that meekly ask,...* 
with ALL girls and women I find ways to make this step less threatening.  Early in the 'little girls' sessions I talk about having a 'icky, scary, uh-oh' feeling around certain kids or adults or tv/movies/news. They all know how that feels. They can come up and whisper in my ear (or one of my helpers) about the situation/people that gives them that feeling.  We jot the basics on a card and I use them during the session.

With older girls and women, also right at the start, they get index cards and can write it out for themselves. No names unless they want to add theirs and i never discuss whose it is - but often, when they feel more comfortable, they will claim their own situation. Sometimes I can address several items at one time. We discuss, I inform and we do lots and lots of brain-storming as a large group. in 2s and 3s, teams, generate lots of discussion and DO SCENARIOS based on their real life experiences all during the session. In all the time I've done this I've never made up anything imaginary - all material is real-world sourced, and *the girls/women are the sources*. 

And i ask their permission to use their contributions (anonymously) in all future work. They feel a huge boost because they become a part of the future classes. And if they say No, its honored with a smile and gratitude that they shared it with me and a verbal committment to respect their choice (modeling, modeling) They can take back their card or watch me tear it up. 
Doing it this way means:
* shy girls don't feel exposed/vulnerable - much more honest questions because nobody else can roll their eyes, ridicule or  look shocked
* privacy is protected: even with a caring adult present and sometimes _because_ their adult is there, girls don't speak up.
   Doing 'talk to my ear' and cards makes it hugely less overwhelming to ask about/tell about really uncomfortable stuff. Its proved priceless with every age group. And I keep the cards (unless she wants it back) so I can develop new stuff.

# For 6-7 years I encourage, almost to the point of requiring that the adult OF THEIR CHOICE comes to the class or talks to me in advance, reads the pre-class material (written or e-mail). I get a signed release or child can't be in the class.  I prefer they are right there. If a child needs a physical 'base touch' with that adult when scary stuff comes up, that is absolutely OK. Some kids sit on laps, some lean against legs or sit nxt to, some are within sight, some just want the adult there. I ask only that adults do silent reassurance, stay calm and silent and let me handle difficult moments. Because we have prior contact its a great step. *I have to earn the trust of both adults and kids before the class, at least in part.* That's one way. Its an enormously productive step. And the reassurance goes both ways.

 Any girl or woman of any age can have any support person present in any session, as long as its their choice and the person follows my guidelines. No questions or sarcasm necessary.  Never had a problem and I can see the relief.  Also, they can bring anything, a stuffed lovey, a lucky charm, a picture of someone important with them, it just has to be kept close by, not in anyones way. Watching a 7 year old grip her stuffed elephant as she works up the courage asks me about something scary or whisper in my helper's ear is a huge lesson in bravery and the things that help people move out into a new place. 

when they speak up or whisper (in *those little girl voices that meekly ask)*  I feel honored to have their trust.

I'd like to know how Cyriacus, Twin Fist, Stevebjj, OKenpo942, oftheherd,WC-lun, KELLYG, MJs etc. do this with 6 year olds and how frequently they have this kind of session with 6-7 year old little girls.

thanks Georgia - so much thanks to you.


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## Carol (Oct 11, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I'm thinking - the Q&A session or the roundup at the end of the session is usually held in the middle of the gym and sometimes those little girl voices that meekly ask, "is rape when a boy puts his weenie in your butt?" might not carry back to the adults, so they hear my booming voice and assume I'm the one bringing it up.
> 
> I'm thinking they want someone to teach their kids how to use voices and say NO a million times but never have to experience any pain whatsoever.
> 
> ...



I don't know much about teaching children, or being a parent.  But as an engineer, I like data.  Rape victims are young. Many are under 18.   Few are over 30.  The younger the minor is, the greater the likelyhood that the child will be raped by someone they know.   Tact is not my strong suit, but if there is a way to tactfully discuss this with parents, perhaps they may see more about why this is important?


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## aedrasteia (Oct 11, 2011)

Carol said:


> I don't know much about teaching children, or being a parent.  But as an engineer, I like data.  Rape victims are young. Many are under 18.   Few are over 30.  The younger the minor is, the greater the likelyhood that the child will be raped by someone they know.   Tact is not my strong suit, *but if there is a way to tactfully discuss this with parents, perhaps they may see more about why this is important?*



Carol

could you try that with martial arts/sd instructors??  They are so completely in denial about reality for girls, boys and teens 
I sometimes just despair - there is usually very little in their classes that connects to what actually happens for 90-95% of us.

Parents know. even if they seem obtuse, believe me they know. I cannot describe how sickened they are and embarrassed by their own flailing around and how defensive and confused. they respond  very well to quiet clarity, respect, and the assumption that this stuff is really hard for us all. what shows on the surface is often a hard cover for something else. hmmm maybe thats true for MA/SD instructors too, but the latter group presents themselves as reliable experts.

What many parents get, so often (see the posts on this thread) is contempt, ridicule and being dismissed as idiots, neglectful or ostriches.

nobody is helped, but i guess it feels better to quickly blow off people instead of doing the hard, challenging work of learning how to actually help them

thanks Carol


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> One thing that I've learned is that handouts given to kids don't always (maybe hardly ever) make it to parents -- even if given to the kids directly in front of the parents. And if they're just a stack with directions to pick one up as you go out... they seldom even get picked up. And that's with adults or kids.
> 
> *I don't recommend bringing parents onto the floor as demonstration partners *..........................................




Oh the temptation of having a parent to throw around etc!


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## Never_A_Reflection (Oct 11, 2011)

Well, it took me some time but I went through this entire thread (some of it twice) and I have to say that I applaud your efforts, Shesulsa.  As a mudansha-ranked assistant instructor, a man who has only been a victim of bullying and as someone without any children, yet, I'm afraid I don't have much to offer to the discussion on any front, but I wanted to at least offer my support.  You are doing good work and I hope that it works out for you and everyone else involved in the end.


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## shesulsa (Oct 12, 2011)

Many of us spend a significant amount of time in discussion about the misconception of violence and all its elements - it's our business (either professional or amateur) after all, so it's easy to see how quickly we can judge people who *want* to do the right thing by their children but are *afraid* of what that really means.

I don't disagree, but I also think the protective factor we need to break through is much stronger than anticipated.  Some parents simply won't be advised. 

What we need to also talk about with them is grooming and THAT is a far trickier conversation to have with children than it is to have with parents.


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## shesulsa (Oct 12, 2011)

I still haven't heard anything from the other mother who claimed that the girls thought the self-defense class was endorsing them to not be "nice."


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 14, 2011)

aedrasteia said:


> G
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Well I didn't get back to this thread sooner. Sorry, I almost missed this.

Personally, I have not given self defense classes. I have raised two daughters, taught sunday school to all ages of children, worked on bus church, and taught Hapkido to a couple or three kids. Especially in sunday school, or bus church, you would be surprised at some of the questions asked. Some are asked for sensationalism, some out of real knowledge seeking. Regardless, they have to be answered some way. Some are inappropriate to the venue and that is the answer, some must be answered based on Bible principles, or referred to a parent or cleric.

You appear to have some extensive training and experience. Mine above may seem quite inadequate compared to you, but it has served me and as far as I can tell, the children, well. If a violation of law is provided to me, I must pass it on to the church person in charge. That is law since I am not a cleric, but a lay-person. 

If I were asked intimate sexual things, I would normally encourage them to talk to a parent, or if they feel they cannon, agree to provide another adult from the church. That has not yet happened. It is not the focus of our interaction and not encouraged. But I never get embarrased and lock up no matter what the question or report. Kids see through that sort of thing pretty quickly and you lose respect and raport.

If that doesn't answer you question, please feel free to ask more questions.


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## shesulsa (Nov 7, 2011)

UPDATE:

The woman who echoed the concerns who promised to write me directly never did write to voice her specific concerns, so I have been unable to have that discussion.

Tonight I am the guest speaker at the Girl Scout Service Unit volunteer meeting where I get to sell the case for self-defense to adult women, leaders and potentially parents.  Not sure what to expect, but I AM curious about the waning interest in the class.

I promise to return with the most honest feedback I can give, and we can continue this discussion.


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## jks9199 (Nov 7, 2011)

The waning interest is probably due to a simple thing:  rock-the-boat-itis.  A couple of people voiced vague concerns; had they actually worked with you about those concerns, you could have done something -- but the visible leadership is doing the simplest approach: drop it and don't rock the boat.


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## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2011)

They must have forgotten I was coming - I had three minutes to talk and the main guest speaker was ... not me. No parents were there, just the core leaders who attend all the time.  Got good feedback on past seminars I've already done.  So I gave some statistics, explained what I do, brought the sample pamphlets (no one looked at them).  

Got applause. I dunno. I think it's the parents who are concerned, not so much the leaders - and given all they already have to deal with, I don't blame them for not wanting to push the event.

I might do a vlog-style video intended for parents and put it on my website.

Thoughts?


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## thegatekeeper (Dec 27, 2011)

You can understand where the parent is coming from, but regardless these things are good to know. There are some sick people out there that don't care about age or gender unfortunately.


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